# Sudden questions regarding LAV III and roll-overs



## Baloo (25 Nov 2005)

> *Military vehicle in fatal accident has history of rollovers*
> Last Updated Fri, 25 Nov 2005 07:44:21 EST
> CBC News
> 
> ...



http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/25/afghan-death051125.html

Ah, yes. Now the LAV IIIs are coming under scrutiny. I wonder when this will end, until each piece of equipment we use is not longer safe.

RIP Braun.


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## Ex-Dragoon (25 Nov 2005)

You know the media loves to stick it to us like this everytime a tagedty like this happens. Look at at every plane crash, boating accident and car crash that happens every day. I think all and all we are lucky the military is not a victim of this sort of thing more often.


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## career_radio-checker (25 Nov 2005)

I really hate that. When Jamie Murphy (RIP) was killed, they portrayed it as the iltis' fault and not the suicide bomber. When will they (the media) start calling a 'turnip' -- a 'turnip'.


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## Baloo (25 Nov 2005)

CTV.ca is now carrying the controversy over the LAV-III. I just hope this does not explode. 



> *Vehicle safety questioned after soldier's death*
> 
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> ...



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051125/afghanistan_soldier_051125/20051125?hub=TopStories


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## Michael Dorosh (25 Nov 2005)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> I really hate that. When Jamie Murphy (RIP) was killed, they portrayed it as the iltis' fault and not the suicide bomber. When will they (the media) start calling a 'turnip' -- a 'turnip'.



Just as soon as calling a turnip "a turnip" sells more commercial time, I guess.  *shrugs*  They play their games, we play ours.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Nov 2005)

Understand frustration with media - we can only control what we tell the media, not what they write.


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## Allen (25 Nov 2005)

Considering high rate of usage of the LAV III, 10 rollovers in 6 years does not seem outrageously high. To my mind at least.

Incidentally, none of the TV news coverage that I have watched seems to be able to identify a LAV III. Most of the time they show a Bison or Coyote.


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## George Wallace (25 Nov 2005)

I find these quotes to be very common to life in general: 





> However, the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III, is now being called into question after a media report claimed the army had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers.
> There have been 10 rollover accidents in the six years the vehicle had been in use.


Yesterdays, first heavy snowfall of the year, proved "the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III automobile, is now being called into question after a media report claimed the army city's drivers had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers collisions.
There have been 10 rollover  over 123 accidents in the six years  first six hours this morning that the vehicle(s) had been in use have been on city streets.



> "They will be looking at all kinds of angles on this. Was the driver fatigued? Was the driver qualified? Was the vehicle properly maintained?"


"They OPP and City Police will be looking at all kinds of angles on this. Was the driver fatigued? Was the driver qualified? Was the vehicle properly maintained?"

Anyway, we all know that the majority of vehicle accidents in winter are a result of driving too fast for conditions.   That really can be applied anywhere, not just to the LAV III.   Another question, though, may be the comments of people who have never driven a large vehicle, nor the vehicle in question, on CTV's Canada AM that they did not believe "the vehicle was to blame whatsoever" in the latest incident.   To comment in such a way before the investigation is over is ridiculous.   There have been problems with vehicles before.   There have also been several instances of Strykers and LAV IIIs being too heavy for roads and the roadway has collapsed.   For an inexperienced "Expert" to make statements like this to the National Media is outrageous.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Nov 2005)

For fuck's sakes.  A flatbed tractor-trailer with a full load of 2x4s will rollover if the road collapses, the driver takes a curve at too high a speed, etc.  I've seen the "hardwood highway" aftermath several times on BC highways on routes I travel less than a handful of times a year, which says something about the frequency with which it occurs.  The chattering fools with a microphone or a column need to get a grip and stop shitting their collective pants every time an accident occurs.


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## jmackenzie_15 (25 Nov 2005)

I knew this would happen as soon as I heard about the accident.... now we wait for the million dollar inquiries and inspections/reviews of the vehicle to make sure its safe so all the bleeding heart canadians can rest easy knowing we're perfectly safe in our LAV-IIIs, or that we're buying newer, less expensive, more poorly constructed vehicles claiming to be safer from a discount manufacturer somewhere.

At times the public reminds me of toronto maple leaf fans.When anything goes wrong, the question isnt 'what mistakes did we make' or 'how do we fix this situation' its often 'who do we blame for this?'

I suppose that people expect we should be using APCs that NEVER roll over and any kind of accident whatsoever is absolutely outrageous?
Maybe they should review how many car accidents there are per year, and re-think of cars are safe or not, and go back to wagons. :


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## Michael Dorosh (25 Nov 2005)

Mack674 said:
			
		

> I knew this would happen as soon as I heard about the accident.... now we wait for the million dollar inquiries and inspections/reviews of the vehicle to make sure its safe so all the bleeding heart canadians can rest easy knowing we're perfectly safe in our LAV-IIIs, or that we're buying newer, less expensive, more poorly constructed vehicles claiming to be safer from a discount manufacturer somewhere.
> 
> At times the public reminds me of toronto maple leaf fans.When anything goes wrong, the question isnt 'what mistakes did we make' or 'how do we fix this situation' its often 'who do we blame for this?'
> 
> ...



Nah, we should just continue to write off every single Canadian civilian as a mouth-breathing moron instead.  Let's all take a deep breath.

Innnnnn

Outttttttttttttt


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## jmackenzie_15 (25 Nov 2005)

I think youre underestimating the medias ability to brainwash the masses.
If they go on and on for a few days about how much of a suicide train the LAVs are, true or not, what do you think would happen?

Its the media I cant stand... they sell the most ridiculous one sided concepts sometimes.


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## Gobsmacked (25 Nov 2005)

As I'm sure its not Classified or OPSEC - if it is then the Army is being quite Anal,  :
I have a 'Clear up the Confusion' querry.

As noted in the 2004 BN, in March 2003, a _'CANLANGEN 004/03'_ message to commanders was issued _"to address driver training and speed problem"_ for LAV-IIIs to stop rollovers.

What is the 'speed restriction' for LAV-IIIs ??  and is it weather dependent ??


[A few km/h restriction should not be that big a deal - or is truly as serious as the media is attempting to portray it?  :-\]


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## Allen (25 Nov 2005)

CTV NewsNet just reported some additional info....apparently, the LAV had to violently swerve to avoid another vehicle that was approaching late at night on the highway without its lights on. This apparently some preliminary info offered by the army.  Unfortunately I can't link to the story since I don't yet see it anywhere on the Internet. The accident story seems to have been moved off the CTV News web site altogether.


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## Michael Dorosh (25 Nov 2005)

Allen said:
			
		

> CTV NewsNet just reported some additional info....apparently, the LAV had to violently swerve to avoid another vehicle that was approaching late at night on the highway without its lights on.



If buddy was swerving his LAV weighing how-many-tons to get out of the way of some local on a civvie tractor, that will certainly make an interesting twist in the media reports...selfless driver angle and all.   I think they call this "positive spin"...


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## McG (25 Nov 2005)

Mack674 said:
			
		

> I suppose that people expect we should be using APCs that NEVER roll over and any kind of accident whatsoever


I've seen tanks turned upside down.  It can happen to anything given the "right" conditions.  

Many assumptions are being made without knowledge of light conditions, experience of the driver in that vehicle, ground conditions, experience of that crew comd, servicability of the vehicle, the axis about which the vehicle rolled, speed of the vehicle, etc.


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## Allen (25 Nov 2005)

Latest updates from CTV:



> Soldier died when driver swerved to avoid car
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> New information has revealed that a Canadian soldier died in Afghanistan because the driver of his military vehicle swerved to avoid an approaching car that wasn't using headlights.
> ...


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051125/afghanistan_soldier_051125/20051125?hub=Canada


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## medicineman (25 Nov 2005)

I wonder what would have happened if the driver had decided to squish whatever was coming his way instead - more or less contrversy... :

MM


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## Armymedic (25 Nov 2005)

without the Cdn death, absolutely none at all...


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## geo (25 Nov 2005)

Guys,
The press' job is to go out there and ask questions.
It's our fault if we do not have SMEs on hand and available to answer them.

For the most part, the Press would be more than happy to use a quote from us.... but we go out and stonewall and tell em to wait for an inquiry.

If they had pointed out the fact that the LAV / AVGP is a tried and tested design, used by Canada and many countries for XX years with excellent results. Tell em that the AVGP original came from Mowag and was designed for the roads & mountains of Switzerland - we might have spared ourselves some grief.

The press slagged us on the Iltis cause we did it to ourselves. telling em that they were clapped out and a hunk of junk. Did anyone tell the press that the Iltis was probably the only small military vehicle able to manouver around in the narrow streets of Kabul?


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## KevinB (25 Nov 2005)

Geo, a number of people spoke out about the Iltis -- while I agree with you -- by the time of the mine strike they where abject POS's.  This issue is entirely different.

 I'm not a LAV driver, but I have gunned and commanded them.  At this point in time all of us who are Drivers or CC/gunners do not have enough info as we where not there -- let alone all the self proclaimed SME's on the subject whop are blathering away.  One unnamed individual who purports himself to be a SME had the audacity to blame the crew - basing it on unfamiliarity/incompetance.  Now having been deployed to Afghan and seen who much driving a LAV crew can amase I have a few issues with that commentator.

One of our members here was involved in a non injurt rollover on a previous tour -- and several of us who are board members have had vehicle to vehicle, vehicle to pedestrain, paracowboy to vehicle etc accidents.  The roads are not up to what most Canadians would call a road -- there is not to no traffic control -- occasionally you will see Police who may or may not decide they want to enforce traffic laws -- The locals have absolutely NO respect for any traffic laws, barricade and NATO/Coalition vehicles (unless you are pointing your weapon at them).

 The LAV in its many flavours is a combat tested vehicle used by Canada and other nations - to wit the US has built its Stryker brigades upon a LAVIII chasis.  

WE ALL NEED TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND AWAIT THE OFFICIAL RESULTS OF THE INCIDENT REPORT.


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## geo (25 Nov 2005)

Hey Kevin,
agree with you... I just think that, with the publication of the press release about the LAV, NDHQ should have released a background document about Vehicle AND the country where it was operating... be it goat trails, dry river beds. No need to go into great detail - but something had to be said... and it wasn't - which required the media people to go to their private "military experts" with little if any competence... and we get it into the neck once again... because the Media felt it had to deliver "breaking news" cause the public has a right to know.... whatever that's supposed to mean.


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## KevinB (25 Nov 2005)

PAFO's are incompetant.

 But any reporter who wanted the real story would fly to Gagetown and talk to both 2RCR rear party and the Infantry School (some of the MWO's who where involved in the LAV program...)


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## Strike (25 Nov 2005)

> A 24-year-old Quebec soldier, Pte. Patrick Dessureault, died earlier this year when a LAV-III rolled over into a river during a training exercise in Alberta.



Love how they neglect to mention how the ground gave way, thereby causing the accident.


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## Britney Spears (25 Nov 2005)

> paracowboy to vehicle etc accidents.



Wow, did anyone in the vehicle survive? I hope he checked his ROE card before using that kind of force.....

Hopefully, this will prompt more training in third-world-driving, which will be a good thing.


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## KevinB (25 Nov 2005)

He forgot while Maroon Berets and Airborne Shirts are well known to be bullet proof -- they are not always Taxi proof...


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## futuresoldier (27 Nov 2005)

This topic is concerning the LAV III rollovers. Thats 2 deaths so far this year, and I am just wondering. "Is this likely to happen more in the future? What caused these rollovers? Will we be getting a replacement vehicle any time soon?" The media will ask, but where are the answers?


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## KevinB (28 Nov 2005)

Hey cheesehead -- STFU on something you know DICK about!

2nd portion edited due to mod's combining the topic.

 #1 still stands


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## WogCpl (28 Nov 2005)

Well Said Kevin!

Wheeled Armoured vehicles have been rolling over and killing people for years AVGP's, Bisons, Coyote's, most of the time the troops sit too high out of the hatch, up to their waist for example. As far as drowning upsidedown in the drivers hatch, my heart goes out to that Vandoo, cause that f***in' sucks large. I have always thought some kind of bail out bottle should be fitted into any AFV for the driver/crew. Just enough so recovery can extract them, would also help in those crappy Halon situations!


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## TCBF (28 Nov 2005)

"Earlier, the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III, was called into question after a media report claimed the army had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers."

- Let me get this straight:  the safety of a vehicle was called into question because two human factors were called into question.  What does that have to do with the LAV III?

"... Halon situations.":

BANG!  ...  "Did we just lose a bottle?"

- Loud, aren't they?

 ;D

Tom


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## WogCpl (28 Nov 2005)

Tom,

you are so right, if you left a LAV III alone for the night still on it's wheels, i am 100% sure it would not flip onto it's turret by morning.
And yes they are loud....and paperwork generating.


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## Gunner (28 Nov 2005)

If you go to the CKNW site, click on the audio vault button, and pull up the 1100 hrs file for today (27 Nov 05), you can hear the pro's and con's of LAVIII from xxxxx xxxxxxxx and Col Howie Marsh (retired). Comments are about 20 mins into the Peter Warren Program.

www.cknw.com


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## KevinB (28 Nov 2005)

Tom, excellent point.

 Secondly I wonder what they consider frequent.   Keep in mind that these vehicles are operated 24/7 regardless of weather...


Don't get me wrong I HATE mech infantry, but what I hate more, is some clown offering his opinion on something he hasn't a schmick about.

This is SPECIFICALLY aimed at the comments Gunner pointed out

Now correct me if I am wrong but neither the good Col (ret.) or the journalist David P are LAVIII qualified as driver, gunner/crew commander?  Nor I doubt have they crewed one operationally...   I really dont care what they say either or -- they have no valid frame of reference to be talking about it - PERIOD
(I dont care to offer my email to them (CKNW) so I wont be listening)


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## TCBF (28 Nov 2005)

Howie Marsh was Armour.  He knows why AFVs flip over, and what can happen when they do.   How many Centurian crewmen did we lose when their 'Agony Wagon' went into 'Mexican Overdrive'?

I have been CC ing a Lynx that ended up sort-of on it's side, a Cougar that roled onto it's side when it went from being on a road to on a frozen river.  I was pax in the cab of an M135 Cdn that rolled onto it's back in the rhubarb.  I have seen  Coyote on it's side.   

What about the guys killed by the Leopard hydraulics over the years?  Or Tpr Zufelt killed by his Coyote seat in 1999?

Tom


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## Teddy Ruxpin (28 Nov 2005)

> Don't get me wrong I HATE mech infantry, but what I hate more, is some clown offering his opinion on something he hasn't a schmick about.



Exactly.   Cougar crews were always aware of the potential for rolling the vehicle, as are Coyote crews (the two vehicles I have experience with in this particular context - I've never CC'd a LAV III) and there is NOTHING new here.   AFAIK, none of those offering ATI-generated speculation on the cause of the accident or on the vehicle have the slightest experience with it (Howie may have Cougar time). 

Message to the media - let the investigation run its course and then offer criticism if warrented.   Engaging in speculation, inaccurate comparisons with the US Stryker experience (our vehicles have turrets, making them vastly different to handle) or ill-conceived attacks on what is generally regarded as a fine vehicle does no one any good at all.

Tom:  oddly, I thought of the seat accident too...


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## KevinB (28 Nov 2005)

Tom, anyone who has driven in a car either as driver or passenger - or watched the news can see how vehicles roll over.   My issue was the LAV itself, since that was the issue at hand.   I've flipped Iltis's (or is it Ilti in plural?)   I've driven a 113 Dozer, AVGP etc... I'm not a LAVIII driver, but I've crewed one, and done it operationally as well (as much as I hate to admit it).   

A mechanical engineer could explain, how and why vehicles do what they do under different circumstances far better than a retired Armoured Col.   -- neither could give you the first person perspecitve that one of the hundreds of LAVIII drivers that have driven in Afghanistan could give you.   We always tell people not to comments beyond your arc...

Want first person commentary - head up to 1PPCLI, 1RCR, 2RCR and 1 (IIRC it was 1) R22eR - all who have sent LAV crews to Afghanistan - with a full combat load, with add on armour, with troops hanging out of the airsentry/family hatches to make sure no one gets behind you...

 Then you will get a fair an honest opinion of the vehicle.


Everyone else is just an oxygen theif.


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## WogCpl (28 Nov 2005)

Hey, we may be wogs but some of us Mechanics actually do know a thing or to about vehicles as well, having peeled them of the road to varying degrees. ;D


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## TCBF (28 Nov 2005)

Two issues I guess:

1. The LAV III and it's performance envelope cbt loaded c/w add on armour: if you ain't drove it - you ain't.

2.  Everything else that rolls:  how general knowedge of that should allow people to stop asking stupid questions or making stupid statements.

Tom


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## KevinB (28 Nov 2005)

Tom,

You forgot #3 Kevin spelled Theif wrong (D'Oh)

But good points


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## Kat Stevens (28 Nov 2005)

Holy crap, man!  I'm no fan of the boat fleet, but come on.  Given the right, or wrong rather, conditions, even the most stable platform can fall over.  How about all the boats that haven't fallen over yet?  Nobody talks about them, but I bet they're out there...


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## George Wallace (28 Nov 2005)

Well Tom, I have photos of a Lynx with its guns sheared off due to a Roll over.  I have photos of a Leopard on its roof in Hoenfels.  I witnessed the Leo in front of me roll in the middle of the night on Ex.  Vehicles roll.  The AVGP and LAV family do roll.  There are many factors other than Driver error.  We are not sending inexperienced Drivers on Tour. Accidents, however, will happen.  How many deaths were recorded on every Reforger/Fall Ex in Germany due to vehicle accidents?  What vehicle known to man has not rolled?  Back in Reply #8 on: November 25, 2005, 12:33:12  I substituted other vehicles and organizations for the LAV and it looks like an everyday/common event to me.  Accidents happen.  Some can be avoided.  Some can't.


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## career_radio-checker (28 Nov 2005)

Here's a prime example of the media's ignorance towards the military.
Follow this link:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051127/woodfield_comeshome_051127/20051128?hub=Canada 
watch the video that is 7 min 41 secs.
In it, the journalist calls a Polaris aircraft a "C-130 Hercules"
and she says Sgt. Short and Cpl Beerenfenger (spelling?) were killed by RPGs

*Shakes Head*


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## Jarnhamar (28 Nov 2005)

> I have photos of a Leopard on its roof in Hoenfels.  I witnessed the Leo in front of me roll in the middle of the night on Ex.  Vehicles roll.  The AVGP and LAV family do roll.



Exactly. 

I think it's easy to forget what kind of conditions our drivers are faced with.   These vehicles are not cruising down the 401 and poof, flip over. Their driving on shitty "roads" and through the countryside where the other drivers don't give a shit if their on the wrong side of the road or not. The media does not do a very good job at showing the terrain over there OR driving conditions, simply that a lav flipped over. 

Very biased reporting.



> watch the video that is 7 min 41 secs.
> In it, the journalist calls a Polaris aircraft a "C-130 Hercules"
> and she says Sgt. Short and Cpl Beerenfenger (spelling?) were killed by RPGs



Considering just how many times the media has screwed up simple stuff like peoples names in their stories, vehicle identification and in the above case how someone died, I'm not big on putting a lot of faith into the media's reports and findings.

I'm with KevinB, theres way too many people chiming in about the LAV3 who have never drove the damn thing before. Comes right back to guys posting on here citing why they hate the C7 (or whatever) and never even picked the thing up before.


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## paracowboy (28 Nov 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> paracowboy to vehicle etc accidents.


har


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## paracowboy (28 Nov 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Wow, did anyone in the vehicle survive? I hope he checked his ROE card before using that kind of force.....
> 
> Hopefully, this will prompt more training in third-world-driving, which will be a good thing.


de har


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## paracowboy (28 Nov 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> He forgot while Maroon Berets and Airborne Shirts are well known to be bullet proof -- they are not always Taxi proof...


har.

Congratulations. You've both made _The List_.


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## medicineman (28 Nov 2005)

All in all, I think the whole thing comes down to this - feces occurs.   Given the number of hours these vehicles have been driven and the various dumps they've been driven in/through, I'd say the what, 6 major accidents that have happened is pretty damn good.   I've both ridden in the back of the LAV III's with 2 RCR and crew commanded a Bison Amb for a couple of years.   I thought the LAV's were the cat's backside.   The Bison too is great.   One little thing though - if ground is unstable underneath them and it gives away, DUH, it'll roll, it's basic physics.   I've had to quickly rehearse the emergency decapitation avoidance drill a couple of times in the Bison when some crap ground threatened to give way underneath me.   The vehicles have a fairly high centre of gravity, long narrow wheel bases are a little top heavy (LAV, Coyotes, Cougars, etc) and are therefore a little unstable.   Doesn't mean we should panic about it, just drive around the situation.   I notice they aren't freaking out about all the MLVW rollovers that have happened over the years (they suffer the same thing), Leopards, M113's and variants.   The one thing I remember a big stink about was in the early 80's when a young reservist rolled a Jeep with a 106mm trailer on it and was killed - that had alot of backlash in the press for awhile.   Mind you, I've seen lots of Jeeps roll over - '54 patterns, CJ and YJ's as well.   Alot of it came back to people just not driving them the way they were meant to be driven.
       Yeah, I know, sum up - in the end this will likely come out as a combination of some really rapid reflexes, rapid overcompensation and dumb luck (that's what I hope anyways).   As long as it goes into everyone's lessons learned basket, hopefully we won't be having a repeat of this.

MM


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## KevinB (28 Nov 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> har.
> 
> Congratulations. You've both made _The List_.



Geez - it took you long to find that


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## Armymedic (28 Nov 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Congratulations. You've both made _The List_.



I take it this would not be similiar in any way to Schindler's list, would it?


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## geo (28 Nov 2005)

The LAV is a decent set of wheels
the rest is, as the afghans put it "in-sha-allah" if god wills it.....
Feces happens

Chimo!


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## armyvern (28 Nov 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I take it this would not be similiar in any way to Schindler's list, would it?


I'm interested to see who else had managed to make _The List_. Egads...


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## Brad Sallows (29 Nov 2005)

We need to distinguish between "subject matter experts" and "subject theory experts".  I can read the maintenance specs on the C-7, every version of "Shoot to Live" ever published, and pore over the blueprints of the template for a standard 600 metre qualification range until my eyeballs fall out, but no amount of reading is going to ensure I can pass a PWT or, more importantly, teach someone else to do so.  For that, I must practice shooting the weapon.  Mastery of literature and statistics doesn't render one's opinion on practical skills "expert".


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## tomahawk6 (29 Nov 2005)

These vehicles while agile for their size cannot evade an accident with a civilian vehicle without great risk to the vehicle and crew
of rollover. Is it worth killing everyone in the vehicle to avoid a civilian bent on crashing into an armored vehicle ? I think not. Pvt Woodfield was in an exposed position and had no chance once the vehicle rolled. In the US Army we teach name tag defilade when riding in an open hatch, but in a rollover I still dont think the soldier has much chance. If I am the commander I can live with one of my vehicles mashing a civilian vehicle if it means my soldier's safety. What if the civilian vehicle had been a IVED ? The LAV wasnt going to dodge him anyway and by taking evasive action the LAV becomes more vulnerable.


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## Britney Spears (29 Nov 2005)

When driving in NA our instinctive reaction to an oncoming car would be to swerve to avoid it. Not to play Monday Morning QB too much, but that's what I meant when I said more third world driver training* could have prevented this incident, or at least saved the life of the driver. Not that I value the life of the Afghan driver any less, but it would have been the right thing to do, like you say, what if it WAS a suicide bomber?




*That wasn't actually another joke about paracowboy, although it rather unwittingly came out as such. Sometimes even I cannot control  my sense of humour.


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## KevinB (29 Nov 2005)

T6  -- I tend to sit on the rear of the LAV when doing rear security/air sentry I figure I'd have a better chance getting tossed aside.
 The Armour guys always complain we Infanteers ride to high or dont get in the vehcile properly -- but if your trying to ride so you can see the sides and back of your vehicle you don't have much choice.


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## paracowboy (29 Nov 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> That wasn't actually another joke about paracowboy, although it rather unwittingly came out as such. Sometimes even I cannot control   my sense of humour.


keep it up, fun-boy, you've just moved up two spaces on _The List_.

Problem with trying to over-come that ingrained programming to swerve from oncoming traffic is that I think we'd have to actually have drivers run over moving vehicles coming at them. The expense would be prohibitive.


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## KevinB (29 Nov 2005)

As I mentioned elsewhere I had a very logical method to solve those issues -- but higher found my ideas criminal


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Nov 2005)

Quote,
Problem with trying to over-come that ingrained programming to swerve from oncoming traffic is that I think we'd have to actually have drivers run over moving vehicles coming at them. The expense would be prohibitive.

Not just that but I don't know if it could be done,....I know  its better to hit that deer then hit the ditch, however......


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## paracowboy (29 Nov 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Not just that but I don't know if it could be done,....I know  its better to hit that deer then hit the ditch, however......


I think it could very well be done, but it would involve a lot of "Training as we fight", in other words actually running over vehicles coming at you. We can train troops to charge into rooms full of people trying to kill them through simulated combat. I'm sure we could arrange something similar for this, but the expense would be prohibitive. Can you imagine trying get the funds needed to buy a few hundred used vehicles to crush under the wheels of a Driver Crse?


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## TCBF (29 Nov 2005)

"The Armour guys always complain we Infanteers ride to high or dont get in the vehcile properly -- but if your trying to ride so you can see the sides and back of your vehicle you don't have much choice."

We do, but there is a time and place for everything.   Normally, about the top 60% of my eyeballs are over the hatch ring - no more.   BUT: when I am backing up, things are different.   When I am driving through a tiny Afghani ville making sure we don't run over children, things are different.   When I am CC ing the 'Yote down the ramp of a C-17 onto the tarmac, I am up pretty high - as the poster shows.

I am as high up as I have to be for as long as I have to be - and that's it.

"Can you imagine trying get the funds needed to buy a few hundred used vehicles to crush under the wheels of a Driver Crse?"

- Two words - "Mill Woods"

Tom


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## tomahawk6 (29 Nov 2005)

I think it could be covered under SOP. No need to have a demolition derby, although it would be popular training I suspect.


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## KevinB (29 Nov 2005)

I was actually thinking of using junker cars - pull them via a cable across the road -- or runway as Edmonton would have the luck to have.


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## TCBF (29 Nov 2005)

A year and a half ago I ran the pre-Kabul Driver Trg (Stand 6) half way down the runway.  PPT and vehicle rodeo in the morning, convoy through Edmonton in the afternoon.  It would be a good spot to teach an offensive driving course.  The Edmonton Keystoners use it for that.

Tom


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## KevinB (29 Nov 2005)

Tom its EVOC -- Emergency Vehicle Operators Course -- (Which I may point out that I have driven and passed - to the shame of some of the EPS Candidates)


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## TCBF (29 Nov 2005)

Are you sure they didn't load you on the "VEOC" - Vehicle Emergency Driver's Course?

Maybe we should teach that at CMTC - one of our MILCOTS is shorter than the rest.

 ;D

Tom


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## KevinB (29 Nov 2005)

No two of the EPS instructors tossed me in a car and ran me thru the course.
  I was lucky since I had a wee but of driving instruction already - and I did not care if I ruined their car...

But they have two new car systems for R&D (cough P I T cough) manuver training.


 Closest the conventional CF gets to decent driver training the Anti terrorist driving course but even access to that is slim to nil.


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## paracowboy (29 Nov 2005)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I think it could be covered under SOP. No need to have a demolition derby, although it would be popular training I suspect.


making it SOP is not going to be enough to overcome years of programming.





			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> I was actually thinking of using junker cars - pull them via a cable across the road -- or runway as Edmonton would have the luck to have.


I was thinking of something like that, as well, but even with them being just frames on a skidboard, I still can't see the CF forking over the cash.


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## KevinB (29 Nov 2005)

The PRT got guys own junkers...

The Fire Dept take in all sorts of junkers as well  -- ideally work with the fire dept to also teach breaching (how often do they cut people out of stuf... -- a lot)  and car stuff too..


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## Jarnhamar (29 Nov 2005)

I wonder about how much safer just driving over an offending car would be?
I can picture the LAV rolling on it's side pretty easy if the oncomming car acts like a ramp for half of the lav, no?


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## KevinB (29 Nov 2005)

Depends on the angle of approach etc.

 But yes - there are dangers for and against.


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## Jarnhamar (29 Nov 2005)

These drivers must have a hell of a lot on their mind.

Do they hit the on comming vehicle or do they swerve.  
Are their bystanders around in danger if they sweve. 
Does the dummy behind the wheel have a kid standing in the front seat.
Is anyone standing in the back hatch.
Not fair at all for people to sit back here in Canada and play arm chair quarterback.

Pisses me off too how they keep commenting on excessive speed.  I'd tend to drive along at a good clip too if  I was a 13 ton target for suicide bombers.


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## MJP (29 Nov 2005)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> These drivers must have a hell of a lot on their mind.
> 
> Pisses me off too how they keep commenting on excessive speed.  I'd tend to drive along at a good clip too if  I was a 13 ton target for suicide bombers.



Ding Ding we have a winner.  Bang on Ghost.  A whole lot of people that have no clue how the vehicle maneuvers and how we operate in that sort of environment.   Speed is one of your best weapons out there to help you defeat/survive an IED/ambush, especially if they are actually successful in damaging the veh in any way.  As a CC I worry about rolling but quite frankly I worry more about Haji sitting there waiting to blow up my veh with a IED and how I'm going to defeat him in his attempt.  





			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> Maybe we should teach that at CMTC - one of our MILCOTS is shorter than the rest.
> Tom



Was it the one that had a run in with a FOO LAV on Blue/Grey route during the BTE?


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## geo (30 Nov 2005)

Paracowboy...
we could always volunteer at the local wrecking yard.... 
else a demolition derby...


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## TCBF (30 Nov 2005)

"Was it the one that had a run in with a FOO LAV on Blue/Grey route during the BTE?"

- Yes.

Tom


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## MacKenzie1NSH (30 Nov 2005)

Is there such thing as a reservist offensive driving course as well, becasue i am about to start my defensive one, and wouldn't mind looking at offensive as well.


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## George Wallace (30 Nov 2005)

No.  There is no such course for Reservists.


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## Acorn (4 Dec 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Closest the conventional CF gets to decent driver training the Anti terrorist driving course but even access to that is slim to nil.



And, as fun as it is, there's no "bumping."


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## KevinB (4 Dec 2005)

Rubbing is racing...    

  Some of the aftermarket courses offer better than what is standard CF fare.  - But I'd agree it woudl be hard to justify a 10k USD course for the majority of CF pers.


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## Armymedic (4 Dec 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Rubbing is racing...



And if you don't trade paint with a Toyota atleast twice during your tour, you're probably not driving correctly.


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## Acorn (5 Dec 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Rubbing is racing...
> 
> Some of the aftermarket courses offer better than what is standard CF fare.   - But I'd agree it woudl be hard to justify a 10k USD course for the majority of CF pers.



No end of good clean fun. The EATD course staff claim that it's one of the most expensive, if not the most expensive, courses for it's length in the CF. Each car (I think the course uses 4 cars per serial) uses two sets of tires, and that doesn't count the wear-n-tear on other components, like blown trannies due to a mis-timed reverse flick. Courses in the US include things like PIT and evasion by contacting the other vehicle. The cost is substantially more, but only a few CF pers get that one (and they all have to pass selection).

And to bring it back on topic: cars, and SUVs for that matter, generally don't roll unless "tripped." Is the CofG of the LAV (and Bison etc) such that a sharp turn will roll it? You could probably train drivers to compensate for a severe shift of the CofG, but as noted above, it can be an expensive training process.

Acorn


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## Armymedic (5 Dec 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> And to bring it back on topic: cars, and SUVs for that matter, generally don't roll unless "tripped." Is the CofG of the LAV (and Bison etc) such that a sharp turn will roll it? You could probably train drivers to compensate for a severe shift of the CofG, but as noted above, it can be an expensive training process.



No, I have done some pretty crazy stuff with AVGPs and Bisons, including high speed (about 40 Kph) sharp turns. I have never personally tipped a veh. All the ones I seen tip is because of the loss of support on the low side of the veh. Nothing you can really train out of a driver.


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## geo (6 Dec 2005)

Did a winter driving course many years ago.
Air force types used an auxiliary taxi strip for the course.
what no one had counted on was that the fire dept guys hosed down the strip AND the snowbanks.... so when the instructors threw the cars into skids and the candidates spun out into the "snowbanks" resulted in resounding "clangs" and did a wonderful job on damaging the cars......

Most satisfying


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