# Saluting Foreign Officers



## ChaosTheory (16 Mar 2012)

I have been looking for an answer for this and Google and the forum search engines do not turn up an answer.

Are we in the Canadian Forces required to salute an officer of a foreign military that is higher ranked than ourselves?  And vice-versa, are Americans required to salute Canadian officers who are higher ranked than themselves?

I thought back in basic I was taught this is true, but talking with a Marine friend, she's saying that they are not required to salute us.  

I was hoping someone could shed some light on this.


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## Aerobicrunner (16 Mar 2012)

I don't have an official answer for you, but  when I was stationed overseas as a Sgt with the US Navy, I always saluted the US officers.  Mind you I was also saluted a lot as well because my dress was tans which, in the US Navy, is Officer's (and CPO) dress.  With the gold coloured writing of Canada on the black shoulder apallettes looking like a bar and with the metal Sgt collar dogs, it was easy to have them confused.


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## Silverfire (16 Mar 2012)

From what I learned in basic, you do not need to salute foreign officers unless they have operational command but that being said, someone with more experience and knowledge can give a better answer.


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## ModlrMike (16 Mar 2012)

I'm not sure there's a specific regulation governing this. That being said, common practice is to salute those officers of foreign services who's ranks you recognize. There is also an expectation that when serving with foreign forces that you will familiarize yourself with their rank system. Some forces take this to extremes and salute every foreign soldier.


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## Pusser (16 Mar 2012)

It's a matter of courtesy, so yes you should salute higher ranking foreign officers.  In my experience, US Armed Forces personnel are very conscious of this and will most certainly salute Canadian officers of higher rank (provided they recognize it*).  I suspect that your Marine friend's superiors may have a different view of this than she does.

*This is not usually a big problem with US Navy personnel as their dress uniform officer rank badges are very similar to ours.  Canadian officers in NCD sometimes seem to cause confusion because in the USN, only seaman and petty officers used to wear light blue shirts with dark blue pants (now no one does).

Although QR&O 3.12 does not specifically address saluting, one may infer the requirement:

3.12 - SENIORITY OF PERSONNEL ATTACHED OR SECONDED TO THE CANADIAN FORCES

An officer or non-commissioned member of another Commonwealth force who is attached or seconded to the Canadian Forces shall have the same seniority in rank in the Canadian Forces as the member holds in the force to which the member belongs.


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## Occam (16 Mar 2012)

Manual of Drill and Ceremonial, A-PD-201-000/PT-000

Section 2

25. Courtesy Salutes

a. Foreign officers shall be saluted in the same
manner as Canadian officers unless the
circumstances clearly dictate otherwise.


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## a_majoor (16 Mar 2012)

While I can't speak for your Marine friend, my experience has been that we salute their officers, and they salute ours.

In my deployments in multinational environments, there have been fairly elaborate charts showing ranks and equivalencies posted everywhere, so you can quickly and easily identify who is whom, even obscure forces like the newly admitted Eastern European nations. 

It is a bit more difficult to deal with cultural barriers, such as remembering  Americans salute with no headdress. It is probably best to be courtious, learn the rank insignia and salute when appropriate. If nothing else, it reflects well on you.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Mar 2012)

What does the US Army say . . .

Army Regulation 600–25    Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy


> . . . . . .
> 
> 1–3. Hand salutes and salutes with arms.
> 
> ...



The AR was the quickest to find and download, but I imagine that the regulations and orders of the other US uniformed services are similar in intent.  While my experience in this matter is decades old, American military pers usually saluted me when appropriate.  On two occasions when I was in the company of American SNCO/CPO and junior American pers failed to salute, they were quickly brought to task for their lapse in courtesy and the SNCO/CPOs apologized for the poor manners of their people.

It seemed that it was common practise for foreign officers in US organizations to wear equivalent US rank insignia; I did during my time at Fort Sam Houston.  That probably made it easier for the Americans down there to recognize my rank.  However, in Europe, it did not seem that difficult for them to recognize the rank insignia of the varied NATO militaries.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2012)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> What does the US Army say . . .
> 
> Army Regulation 600–25    Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy
> The AR was the quickest to find and download, but I imagine that the regulations and orders of the other US uniformed services are similar in intent.  While my experience in this matter is decades old, American military pers usually saluted me when appropriate.  On two occasions when I was in the company of American SNCO/CPO and junior American pers failed to salute, they were quickly brought to task for their lapse in courtesy and the SNCO/CPOs apologized for the poor manners of their people.
> ...



Who cares what the US says. I was taught, and agree with, that officers, of any foreign military force, rate a salute.

This whole thread is stupid in the extreme. An Officer gets saluted. Doesn't matter his training or country. If he gets saluted by his military, he gets saluted by ours.

If you're visiting a foreign base, it's incumbent on you, or your CoC, to educate you in the customs of the military you're visiting and to follow the same when you're there.


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## Journeyman (16 Mar 2012)

What he said. 

There's a reason it's called "paying compliments."  It's not a burden; it's simple courtesy.


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## armyvern (16 Mar 2012)

True that. 

The CSM in me cringes to think some believe it's 'optional'.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Mar 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Who cares what the US says. . . . .



The OP, who desired some clarification about our and American saluting practices.



			
				Sareon said:
			
		

> . . . . .  And vice-versa, are Americans required to salute Canadian officers who are higher ranked than themselves?
> 
> I thought back in basic I was taught this is true, but talking with a Marine friend, she's saying that they are not required to salute us.
> 
> I was hoping someone could shed some light on this.



The Marine friend, may "technically" be correct and depending on the circumstances (location, nationality and position of the foreign officer, other locally specific regulations) she could get away with not saluting a foreign officer.  But then again, I've also heard of Marines bitching that they shouldn't have to salute officers of the other services.  Note that the US Army regulation states only "customary" not "shall/will" as is the case for Canadian practice.

Edited for correction.

Your Marine friend is wrong.  With a little more research, I found something in US Navy Regulations Chapter 12 FLAGS, PENNANTS, HONORS, CEREMONIES AND CUSTOMS



> Section 3. Hand Salutes and Other Marks of Respect
> . . . . . .
> 1210. Occasions for Rendering Hand Salutes
> 
> ...



"Persons in the naval service" includes US Marines.  Apparently, the US Navy differs from the US Army in letter of the law, however actual practice of saluting foreign officers is probably the same.


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## captloadie (16 Mar 2012)

I would gather that most CSMs would cringe if they ever visited my unit here overseas. They would be lucky to see most of the foreign officers wearing hats let alone paying compliments to each other. The going standard is we are all equal with the exception of the director (unless you are the French or Germans, their LCols seem to thing that it is still alright to treat the NCMs like personal attendants). When I want back to Borden for a month long course, it actually took awhile to get back into the swing of squinting my eyes up to try and read the impossible to see ranks in the early moring dusk.


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## armyvern (16 Mar 2012)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I would gather that most CSMs would cringe if they ever visited my unit here overseas. They would be lucky to see most of the foreign officers wearing hats let alone paying compliments to each other. The going standard is we are all equal with the exception of the director (unless you are the French or Germans, their LCols seem to thing that it is still alright to treat the NCMs like personal attendants). When I want back to Borden for a month long course, it actually took awhile to get back into the swing of squinting my eyes up to try and read the impossible to see ranks in the early moring dusk.



I have no issues with foreign military dress --- their dress regs aren't ours. It seemed to me that the IDF only wore headdress while in buildings, the Syrians never, the french tucked up under their epaulette 24/7, etc etc. Mileage may vary.

But, as per the regulations quoted down below, it is possible to designate a 'non-saluting' zone, protocol etc that is situational dependent. Such as in a battle, in the field etc. If that's what they've got going on at your current location, good on them. Bad on their treatment of the lower ranks though for those applicable nations.

I'm just glad I'm not in China where they'd make me wear a mini-skirted uniform and knee high boots that do NOT have heels.


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## Journeyman (16 Mar 2012)

Some taskings authorize/require civie attire. After a couple of months in-theatre working with the same people, I crossed paths with a Canadian troop who recognized me and saluted. The Marine I was walking with actually stopped and said, "_you're_ an officer?"

From him, I took it as a compliment.


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## armyvern (16 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ...
> From him, I took it as a compliment.



Well you should too. After having known you for far too many years now, I'd still salute you if I ever saw you in uniform while NOT inside a bar. Just saying.  >


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## Journeyman (16 Mar 2012)

It's so seldom that I wear a uniform inside a bar


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## Jimmy_D (16 Mar 2012)

For all of those who deal with NATO nations that have no clue what the ranks of other nations mean.

https://www.natoschool.nato.int/multimedia.asp


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## JSR OP (16 Mar 2012)

What if they don't hold a commission at all?  What about US Warrant Officers...  do we as Canadian Forces pers salute them?  I'm inclined to say no, as we don't salute our own.


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## George Wallace (16 Mar 2012)

Silverfire said:
			
		

> From what I learned in basic, you do not need to salute foreign officers unless they have operational command but that being said, someone with more experience and knowledge can give a better answer.





			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I'm not sure there's a specific regulation governing this. That being said, common practice is to salute those officers of foreign services who's ranks you recognize. There is also an expectation that when serving with foreign forces that you will familiarize yourself with their rank system. Some forces take this to extremes and salute every foreign soldier.



I can't believe I actually read those posts.  What are they teaching these days?  It sure reflects poorly on the caliber of our instructors, or are you just not fully comprehending what was taught?  There are times and place where paying a compliment are done, and where paying a compliment is not done.  One does not usually perform "Sniper Checks" with well liked superiors in the "battle zone", however, in Garrison conditions one would pay a smart compliment to all officers.  (Sometimes you may have to bite your upper/lower lip, but .....)


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## Pusser (16 Mar 2012)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> What if they don't hold a commission at all?  What about US Warrant Officers...  do we as Canadian Forces pers salute them?  I'm inclined to say no, as we don't salute our own.



Canadian and US warrant officers are not on the same plane and should not be regarded as equivalents.  In simple terms, our warrant officers mess with the sergeants, whereas American warrant officers mess with the officers.


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## George Wallace (16 Mar 2012)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> What if they don't hold a commission at all?  What about US Warrant Officers...  do we as Canadian Forces pers salute them?  I'm inclined to say no, as we don't salute our own.



We don't salute US Warrant Officers, but that is a hard call as you have to be inches away to see the cutouts in their rank bars........so in the end they often do get saluted.


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## GAP (16 Mar 2012)

If it moves "Salute it".....apologize to the fuzzy caterpillar later.... ;D


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## jeffb (16 Mar 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We don't salute US Warrant Officers, but that is a hard call as you have to be inches away to see the cutouts in their rank bars........so in the end they often do get saluted.



There was a US WO in the officers mess here in Pet a few months ago and it took the group of us probably 5 minutes to figure out the rank. Sure, he was standing about 15 feet away but guesses ranged from Lt to Maj General.


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## George Wallace (16 Mar 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> There was a US WO in the officers mess here in Pet a few months ago and it took the group of us probably 5 minutes to figure out the rank. Sure, he was standing about 15 feet away but guesses ranged from Lt to Maj General.




Now this quote will just add to some of the confusion, as ranks don't always translate over to a foreign nation all that well.  I remember that MCpls were ranked equal to US E6s (Sgts) while in Germany (Germany story).  So, at times, that had MCpls in the Snr NCO messes there.


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## Haggis (16 Mar 2012)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> What if they don't hold a commission at all?  What about US Warrant Officers...  do we as Canadian Forces pers salute them?  I'm inclined to say no, as we don't salute our own.



The USMC, US Army, USCG and US Navy Chief Warrant Officers are commissioned officers.  They also have Warrant Officers which are not commissioned.  Interstingly, US Warrant Officers are drawn from the E7- E9 ranks (WO to CWO here) in a manner somewhat similar to our Special Requirements Commissioning Plan.

Being they are all former senior NCO, if you salute the wrong one, you are quite likely to find out about it in short order.


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## GAP (16 Mar 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now this quote will just add to some of the confusion, as ranks don't always translate over to a foreign nation all that well.  I remember that MCpls were ranked equal to US E6s (Sgts) while in Germany (Germany story).  So, at times, that had MCpls in the Snr NCO messes there.



Well, it was the CF that screwed that up. You now have 3 versions of private, no "Lance Corporal" then you go and insert a rank in between Cpl and Sgt.....  :nod:


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## Haggis (16 Mar 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> Well, it was the CF that screwed that up. You now have 3 versions of private, no "Lance Corporal" then you go and insert a rank in between Cpl and Sgt.....  :nod:



I'll point out that MCpl is not a rank one may be promoted into.  It's an appointment.

From Queens Regulations and Orders, Chapter 3.08:

3.08 – MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
    
(1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal. 
   ( 
(2) The rank of a master corporal remains that of corporal.
    
(3) Master corporals have seniority among themselves in their order of seniority as corporals. 
    
(4) Master corporals have authority and powers of command over all other corporals.  

Yes, I'm from NDHQ and I'm here to help.


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## dapaterson (16 Mar 2012)

And "MCpl is not a rank" is very important in disciplinary situations, as a Sgt reduced in rank becomes a Cpl, not a MCpl.


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## Haggis (16 Mar 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And "MCpl is not a rank" is very important in disciplinary situations, as a Sgt reduced in rank becomes a Cpl, not a MCpl.


  Correct - as defined in QR&O 3.08 para 2.


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## aesop081 (16 Mar 2012)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> What if they don't hold a commission at all?  What about US Warrant Officers...  do we as Canadian Forces pers salute them?  I'm inclined to say no, as we don't salute our own.



http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/wocc/woprogram.asp#gradestructure



> The Army warrant officer corps is comprised of over 25,000 men and women of the active Army and reserve components. Warrant officers are technical experts that manage and maintain increasingly complex battlefield systems. They enhance the Army's ability to defend our national interests, and to fight and win our nations wars. Candidates who successfully complete Warrant Officer Candidate School are appointed in the grade of Warrant Officer One. *When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts*. However, warrant officers remain single-specialty officers whose career track is oriented towards progressing within their career field rather than focusing on increased levels of command and staff duty positions


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## a_majoor (16 Mar 2012)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> What if they don't hold a commission at all?  What about US Warrant Officers...  do we as Canadian Forces pers salute them?  I'm inclined to say no, as we don't salute our own.



Read and become familier with this chart: https://www.natoschool.nato.int/new_www/multimedia/army_rank.pdf


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## Towards_the_gap (16 Mar 2012)

As gap said, if it moves salute it, if in doubt salute it, if really in doubt turn around, cross the street, walk into a lamppost or otherwise avoid saluting it, or at last resort, throw up a salute and watch for a reaction from the salutee - if you see the spark of anger quickly turn the salute into a weird scratching of your right eyebrow and say 'good morning'.

Bob is your fathers brother.


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## fraserdw (16 Mar 2012)

Saluting officers of other nations demonstrates that your superior discipline, most such officers take that away when they return home.


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## AmmoTech90 (16 Mar 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We don't salute US Warrant Officers, but that is a hard call as you have to be inches away to see the cutouts in their rank bars........so in the end they often do get saluted.



That is incorrect.

US Warrant Officers are saluted.  They are commissioned (sometimes a differing ranks depending on their branch of service), but their remit is to conduct specialized technical duties that are much more narrowly focused than other commissioned officers but still require the authority and responsibility of an officer.  The fact that many of them are ex-Sr NCOs is irrelevent, they are now commissioned officers, they simply learnt their specialized skills are NCOs.  Most I have met do not care if they are saluted, but they are due one.

See below for a quote from the US WO School:
When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts. However, warrant officers remain single-specialty officers whose career track is oriented towards progressing within their career field rather than focusing on increased levels of command and staff duty positions


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## SupersonicMax (16 Mar 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Saluting officers of other nations demonstrates that your superior discipline, most such officers take that away when they return home.



For real!?


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## Pusser (16 Mar 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> For real!?



Absolutely, in the same way that the way I'm treated by the members of other nations' armed forces affects my impression of those armed forces and indeed their nation when I come home to Canada.


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## aesop081 (16 Mar 2012)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> See below



See reply #30  ;D


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## armyvern (16 Mar 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Absolutely, in the same way that the way I'm treated by the members of other nations armed forces affects my impression of those armed forces and indeed their nation when I come home to Canada.



I'd personally harken that to "professionalism" vice "discipline". And, as those nations salute as well - and return them too!! - it certainly does absolutely diddly-squat to demonstrate "our superiority" over anyone else.

For real.


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## my72jeep (16 Mar 2012)

I was working full time at the Borden Cadet Training Center when we started teaching the former Com block officers at the Language school. now those were trying times. For a bit I was having Serb generals saluting my newly donned Captains.


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## armyvern (16 Mar 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> I was working full time at the Borden Cadet Training Center when we started teaching the former Com block officers at the Language school. now those were trying times. For a bit I was having Serb generals saluting my newly donned Captains.



Borden is indeed interesting for this. While I was posted there, they combined our WO & Sgts Mess Dining facilities into the Officer's Mess. Those foreign officers were constantly saluting me outside the Mess on the assumption that I must outrank them; I'd try to explain that it was supposed to be I who initiated such (but rarely got the chance to as they'd salute me 20 feet before I got to them ... and we Canucks, when on the move, initiate such just prior to crossing paths). They were indeed baffled and confused; some were horrified that non-officers would actually share their galley too. Cadpat didn't help.

I felt bad for them - especially at -30 in a blizzard, something also foreign to most of them.  :-X


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## Towards_the_gap (16 Mar 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> For real!?



+1

I have never judged a member of a foreign country, or it's military for that matter, based solely upon their ability to put up a high five.


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## AmmoTech90 (16 Mar 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> See reply #30  ;D



Bah!

 :blotto:


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2012)

For the OP,

Nuances and one offs aside, I think it's agreed, that yes, we salute foreign officers.


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## Furniture (16 Mar 2012)

When my students fail to pay compliments to any officer I ensure they see the error of their ways in short order. It is about showing respect, troops shouldn't require it in writing.


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## medicineman (16 Mar 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm just glad I'm not in China where they'd make me wear a mini-skirted uniform and knee high boots that do NOT have heels.



What are you worried about - you're still taller than the average male Chinese soldier, much less the female ones...ergo lots of leg to show off.  Win/Win for us.

MM


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## ModlrMike (16 Mar 2012)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> +1
> 
> I have never judged a member of a foreign country, or it's military for that matter, based solely upon their ability to put up a high five.



I wouldn't think that "solely their ability" etc would be anybody's criteria. Just the same, it does speak to one's professionalism and adds to the whole picture.


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## Zoomie (16 Mar 2012)

It's awkward repaying a compliment when the gate guard salutes you.  For the first 4 months I would just nod and say "have a good day".  Now I am USAF indoctrinated enough to return the salute, while seated and not wearing a head-dress (GASP!).

I've also had a US Army member salute me while wearing his PT gear - I was in uniform.  They consider their t-shirts and sweat pants to be "in uniform".


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## JSR OP (16 Mar 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Read and become familiar with this chart: https://www.natoschool.nato.int/new_www/multimedia/army_rank.pdf



Been there, done that, even saw them in real life. 

Throwing out a chart of NATO equivalencies doesn't even come close to answering the question...  Especially since the chart doesn't even show the US Warrant Officer ranks...

Thanks for coming out though.


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## armyvern (16 Mar 2012)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> Been there, done that, even saw them in real life.
> 
> Throwing out a chart of NATO equivalencies doesn't even come close to answering the question...  Especially since the chart doesn't even show the US Warrant Officer ranks...
> 
> Thanks for coming out though.



The question was, "do we salute foreign officers?" The answer, as given in official CF reference, is an unequivocal, "yes".

We salute the commission (not the rank) and, as shown, US WOs do indeed fall into that 'commissioned' category. It's a no-brainer.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Mar 2012)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> Been there, done that, even saw them in real life.
> 
> Throwing out a chart of NATO equivalencies doesn't even come close to answering the question...  Especially since the chart doesn't even show the US Warrant Officer ranks...
> 
> Thanks for coming out though.



At least Thucydides attempted to help, as opposed to your useless jibe that provided absolutely nothing.

Thanks for coming out though.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## HollywoodCowboy (21 Mar 2012)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> As gap said, if it moves salute it, if in doubt salute it, if really in doubt turn around, cross the street, walk into a lamppost or otherwise avoid saluting it, or at last resort, throw up a salute and watch for a reaction from the salutee - if you see the spark of anger quickly turn the salute into a weird scratching of your right eyebrow and say 'good morning'.
> 
> Bob is your fathers brother.



As a young Cpl many t-shirts ago, I ran into a German and I had no idea what rank he was, so I fired a salute and he smiled and returned it, next came a Brit, this guy had a crown so I say "good day Warrant", smiled and politely said he was a major, fired a salute.
Then came this guy in a camo pattern that I have never seen in my life but he too had a crown, "good day Major" well a blast of Australian flew my way at mach speed and he informed me he was a Warrant.

All that walking to the mess for lunch.


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## RememberanceDay (22 Mar 2012)

I was looking about in the ship's log, and it states (for Foreign officer salutes) that:

Foreign officers in uniform will be saluted, regardless of rank. Also, known foreign officers out of uniform will be saluted. They are to be treated like our own regarding headdress rules, except for the 'regardless of rank' part.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2012)

I'm pretty sure, that if people would read the whole thread, they'd find we've settled this already.

Foreign Officers get saluted.

Milnet.ca Staff


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