# airsoft?



## HGI (10 Jul 2004)

Hey what's up,   just wondering if airsoft was ever used for training.


----------



## shaboing (10 Jul 2004)

well I'm not in yet but I'm pretty sure airsoft is not used. i do know for a fact paint ammunition is used as well as a lazer system where you have sensors on your body that will buzz if you get killed(i can't remember what its called). but like i said I'm not in yet so don't quote me, ha ha.


----------



## Yeoman (10 Jul 2004)

I know the guys out in 2 VP were looking into it. wether or not it ever happend, who knows. I know 4 RCR is using it, since getting simmunation out for night training is expensive and pointless. they've got a guy in that unit that sells airsoft stuff as his partial day job, so that's why we used it when I was there. I don't know of any other units using it though. personally I'd much rather see airsoft opposed to simmunation, but that's just me.
Greg


----------



## HGI (10 Jul 2004)

My buddy just got back from the British army about a month ago and he was showing  me photos of the training he did.  He just told me they used the lazer system once because of the price it cost, then the rest of the training was done with blanks and live rounds.  I'm guessing that airsoft isn't used because of the cost it would be to get new guns and have them looked after.


----------



## Tpr.Orange (10 Jul 2004)

shaboing said:
			
		

> well I'm not in yet but I'm pretty sure airsoft is not used. i do know for a fact paint ammunition is used as well as a lazer system where you have sensors on your body that will buzz if you get killed(i can't remember what its called). but like i said I'm not in yet so don't quote me, ha ha.




Actually Simunitions are not PAINT...they are a mix of a wax and chalk red filling.


----------



## childs56 (10 Jul 2004)

how well does air soft shoot, range,accuracy, effects on pesonalle and gear, cost of wpns systems and maintanence of such. thanxs


----------



## HGI (10 Jul 2004)

well i payed 500$ canadian for my m4a1 stock with the battery.   i just got it upgraded with a better spring so it'll be shooting just under 400fps   but you can tweak airsoft guns to shoot over 500fps witch would brake skin........     anyhow the bbs are cheap and they're battery powered.... other than the gass blow back guns witch use green gass.
but if you keep the gun stock and you lube it with silocon spray once ever 2nd time using it then it;ll be fine for at least 2 years  but once you upgrade them you'll find your gun will need new parts every 6-12month


----------



## Tpr.Orange (10 Jul 2004)

The problem with Airsoft is that there is no way to know if you've been hit since your wearing so much equipment, you might not feel it, at least with simunitions you can see that your hit..


----------



## shaboing (10 Jul 2004)

Tpr.Orange said:
			
		

> shaboing said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ah, snazzy. i just saw a few guys in the regiment i have applied for that obviously died in the exercise and they referred to it as paint prob cause it was just easier to explain, haha. lazy bastards. but anyway, thanks for the info. also, i have played paintball and the balls are soo inaccurate, how accurate is the simunation, is it about the same as firing a real bullet?


----------



## HGI (11 Jul 2004)

umm well an upgraded gun shooting .25's on single fire is quite accurate.   But the bolt action rifles are vary accurate.


----------



## shaboing (11 Jul 2004)

HGI: i meant for the simunation, not the airsoft


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Jul 2004)

So when your, you know, shooting your friends with BBs, what kinda protective gear do you wear? Full face mask? Will these suckers break the skin pretty deep if you get shot close?


----------



## combat_medic (12 Jul 2004)

The laser system that everyone is referring to is called MILES gear. You wear a number of sensors on your body and attach a small device on to your rifle loaded with blank rounds. When you fire a blank round, the device sends a laser out in the direction you're aiming, and when a sensor is hit, it starts beeping. In my opinion, the system is quite good because you can use your own weapons, and the range and trajectory is virtually unchanged (although some cheating of the system is possible).

I know a while back the CF was using a type of simunitions with 5.56 ammo, but they found that the velocity at which the balls travelled was causing too many injuries (or so I was told) and so they ceased purchasing it. The big problem with using airsoft or conventional paintball is that the trajectory and range are far different than firing conventional ammo, so would develop bad habits in a lot of firers. I don't see the CF using either; it doesn't seem to be a good training tool.


----------



## MJP (12 Jul 2004)

We still use simunitions and have purchased quite a few upper receivers for use by units.   You use your own weapons lower receiver, take out the buffer and the spring.   Insert the suminition upper receiver and buffer.   Replace your bolt with a 9mm simunition one and voila you're ready to go.     It's a great training tool for FIBUA.   

On a side note in Edmonton we have a new facility, for practicing FIBUA, near the ASU.   It's currently only a small mock-up but plans are in place to use another building in the same area to practice up to Pl+ attacks in a MOUT environment.

There are a few discussions and pictures to be found on this site if you want more info....


----------



## Da_man (12 Jul 2004)

shaboing said:
			
		

> Tpr.Orange said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## GDawg (6 Dec 2004)

*BUMP*

I am looking into doing a comparison of the merits of airsoft as a military training tool. It is important to note I am thinking small, IE: outfitting for 10-30 people.

Is there a benefit for reserve unit buying these things, where going to the range is too costly, and the SAT doesn't cut it. Actually, the Range doesn't cut it either.
In training for reacting to ambush, or defending a CP or what have you, I think that airsoft could fill a unique niche and provide a useful tool that won't require uber special training areas, unbelievably expensive equipment, or unprecedented safety measures.

What do y'all think? Has anyone used airsoft and : MILES, Simunition, etc and can provide some insight?


----------



## Cooper (6 Dec 2004)

> You use your own weapons lower receiver, take out the buffer and the spring.   Insert the suminition upper receiver and buffer.   Replace your bolt with a 9mm simunition one and voila you're ready to go.



All you do is take your normal upper receiver off and replace it with the simunition one (which comes bolt included). I don't know where you   got the idea you have to change buffer and spring.

Also regardng the accuracy of the simunition, it is quite unaccurate anything more than close range.


----------



## Scratch_043 (6 Dec 2004)

You know you revived this topic from July with the exact same question as the original?

IMO, Airsoft would make a usefull tool for fibua training, because or their size and realism, but can not replace range etc. because it is not accurate enough, like shooting a bb gun (which it essentially is) down the range. Airsoft fires at a velocity of about 350fps, and the projectiles are 6mm, and typically wheigh 0.2g. So, as you can imagine, they do not have close to the same physics as a real rifle, therefore they can't be relied upon for any training that involves the need for accuracy over 100ft.


----------



## s23256 (6 Dec 2004)

The Simunition kits we used this summer had replacement buffers, perhaps there is more than one version of the kit in the system.


----------



## Cooper (6 Dec 2004)

That must be the case. The sim kits I've used (and only ever seen) don't come with the buffer, have the handguards all in blue, and has the barrel length of a C8, quite different from your picture.


----------



## Yeoman (6 Dec 2004)

I've used all three systems. I was using simmunation and airsoft before I even joined up (used to work at a paintball field part time before I joined up, and did when I was in the MO's as well and we seen the police come through the field using sim stuff). personally I have always seen airsoft as a much more effective training method.
and just WHY would I say that?
well it's quite simple; it's cheaper, and to me a more effective training aid.
now I ain't about to go and guess at how much a box of sim stuff costs (because I don't remembe exactly) but to get 2200 rounds of bb's costs $20. and if you were doing 5 mags of 30 rounds? that's enough to supply almost 15 personel with 150 bb's.
sure the start up costs would be bloody expensive consider the cost of 5 mags, a battery, and the weapon brand new can be $800 in some scenarios, and to get a C9 can easily be 4 grand, as well as spart parts, battery chargers, training on them. however you can actually have your enemy force using different weapons then a c7 shooting at you, to make it that little bit more realisitc
another thing is that you wouldn't HAVE to wear flak vests because of power of a bb isn't as much as a sim round. I know of a few airsofters that wear flak vests while playing (and occasionally I have in the past), yes you can't really feel the round actually hitting your body, but you definetely will hear the round bouncing off of you. as well you do not have to wear that enormous, hot, and easily fogged up mask, neck protector, and jock. all you'd need is your ballistic goggles, and a mouth guard (small yes, but they can chip teeth) but if you were in the army, you should have both anyways.
mind you I do personally believe that simmunation is much better then having blanks and going "BANG! I HIT YOU!" (lame), I personally am not fond out being in the amount of pain I was in when I got hit in the ear from 10 feet with that sim round again (it made me drop like a rock), or having my body covered by all these little scars, or even bother attempting to clean those things like we do, or how you can not effectively use the scope that you have been trained to use on the rifles for your entire career.
of all and all as a conclusion; I'd much rather see airsoft being used as it would be a cheaper training method then simmunation in the long run, and much more safer as well, but with simmunation already in the system, I doubt that I will ever see that happen.
Greg


----------



## youravatar (8 Dec 2004)

combat_medic said:
			
		

> The laser system that everyone is referring to is called MILES gear.



Yea, that's what the americans call it, we use whats called the "Weapons Effect Simulator or WES" tho virtually the same ours is better  ;D


----------



## recce_dave (8 Dec 2004)

Personally, I think MILES systems are kind of crap. I've been on too many exercises where MILES was employed and did not work. Either batteries were N/S, people removed them from their own bodies to avoid death (cheaters), or they just did not fire accurately. My opinion is that simunition is a far more realistic training aid in that a visible projectile comes down the pipe right at you. Its pretty hard to cheat with this, although there are always some who do. It lays down a suppresive fire for section attacks that is unmistakable when coming at you ... only a bit slower than when real bullets. I find it is best employed in a FIBUA/OBUA/whatever you want to call it setting as the range is not too far. It also gives a nice welt or even breaks the skin which gives a reminder of where you went wrong in your attack. The only crap part is the protective equipment you have to wear as it hampers ones visibility and breathing ... fog of war my ass!


----------



## foerestedwarrior (8 Dec 2004)

The sim kit you seen in the picture, and the talk of replacing the buffer, this is all the original versions that came up here. The newer one, that i have used since CAC '03 had a C8 length barrel, thus killing the need for replacing the buffer(it all had to do with gas pressure). 

The airsoft rifles of now all have whats called hopup on them, it creates a back spin on them that makes it accurate out to longer ranges(range depends on many variables). Trust me, you will know when you have been shot, plus even with a full face mask and goggles, like this;






Paintball, is only inaccurate if you have a bad barrel, bad gun, or allowed it to get to full of paint or dirt. The easiest way to avoid this is to conduct maintenance on the guns, or have some one do it. Also carry a barrel squeegee,they solve all the ballbreaks/dirt problems inside your gun.


----------



## Radop (29 Jan 2005)

disgruntled said:
			
		

> Personally, I think MILES systems are kind of crap. I've been on too many exercises where MILES was employed and did not work. Either batteries were N/S, people removed them from their own bodies to avoid death (cheaters), or they just did not fire accurately.


I think that miles gear is great training.  The value that we got out of it was excellent.  The cheaters are just kidding themselves because you can't do that with a real bullet.


----------



## brihard (7 Feb 2005)

Some units do FIBUA in Pet with platoon kits of paintball gear, either rented or purchased by the unit. I remember being in there this summer and finding paintball husks scattered here and there. A Tippmann 98 paintball gun goes for under 200 bucks, and is EXTREMELY rugged and reliable. The accuracy leaves something to be desired, but is perfectly adequate for room clearing oeprations. You can get paint for $50 for 2000 at WalMart. Not a quality of paint I'd ever use in an actual game, if possible, but again, perfectly suitable for short range stuff. The only issue would be having a CO2 fill station on site, but that's really not a problem.  the ncie thing about paintball is that the masks are far nicer to work in than those bloody Simunition masks. By using your CO2 tank as a buttstock, you can actually use the weapon's sights with the amsk on. It's an effective tool for teaching short range stuff- and it's a hell of a lot of fun.  ;D Paint grenades and such are available too.


----------



## Da_man (7 Feb 2005)

ToRN said:
			
		

> You know you revived this topic from July with the exact same question as the original?
> 
> IMO, Airsoft would make a usefull tool for fibua training, because or their size and realism, but can not replace range etc. because it is not accurate enough, like shooting a bb gun (which it essentially is) down the range. Airsoft fires at a velocity of about 350fps, and the projectiles are 6mm, and typically wheigh 0.2g. So, as you can imagine, they do not have close to the same physics as a real rifle, therefore they can't be relied upon for any training that involves the need for accuracy over 100ft.




isnt simunition actually designed for FIBUA?


IMO we shouldnt start using toys for warfare training


----------

