# Safariland 6004 BHP, Holster Mod



## Eric_911 (28 Jan 2008)

Good Day all

My first post with a picture, I hope it works. I did a quick search, and although a thread or two eluded to the modification, nothing was very specific.

For the BHP to be holstered and cocked, a mod must be made to accomodate the hammer being in the cocked position.  Can anyone be a little more specific about the mod, for example, it the notch supposed to be cut at about 1cm x 1cm, or smaller?

Is this approximately where it should be cut?







Thanks,

Eric


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## Big Red (28 Jan 2008)

Looks fine. Just take a BHP put it in the holster cocked and cut a notch with a gerber/hacksaw/shears till it fits. It's not terribly complicated. Also ditch the top strap and shorten the drop leg portion and it will ride much better.


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## Franko (28 Jan 2008)

There is no need to cut the strap to keep a BHP cocked while holstered as there is, in my experience, enough room for it.

Now if you want to be able to cock it when it's still holstered, that's where the cut comes in and your diagram looks GTG.

My 0.02 Duram worth.

Regards


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## George Wallace (28 Jan 2008)

OK.  Now you got me.  I'm trying to remember the Cocked and Half-cocked lessons I learned.  Unless I have it backwards, neither is a good thing for a loaded/rdy BHP in a holster.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Franko (28 Jan 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> OK.  Now you got me.  I'm trying to remember the Cocked and Half-cocked lessons I learned.  Unless I have it backwards, neither is a good thing for a loaded/rdy BHP in a holster.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Nope, you got it right. I have seen some guys have a round up the spout, manually de-cock it, then take the mag out and put in an extra round.

They would only have to cock the hammer or leave it in the "half bent" for easier cocking.

A bit much for a secondary weapon IMHO and mine was always loaded but never readied unless required.

Regards


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## mudgunner49 (28 Jan 2008)

Eric_911 said:
			
		

> Good Day all
> 
> My first post with a picture, I hope it works. I did a quick search, and although a thread or two eluded to the modification, nothing was very specific.
> 
> ...



Eric_911,

My question is this - "Why didn't you buy the version that allows for Condition 1 carry?"  They are much easier to deal with and are readily available.  I am, in fact, thinking of making them the Regimental standard...


blake


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## Big Red (28 Jan 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> A bit much for a secondary weapon IMHO and mine was always loaded but never readied unless required.
> 
> Regards



The reason people don't carry thier weapons readied is because they are afraid of them. How are you going to know in advance if you need your secondary to be ready?  There should be only one condition of carry outside the wire, round in the chamber, hammer back, weapon on safe.


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## Franko (28 Jan 2008)

Big Red said:
			
		

> The reason people don't carry thier weapons readied is because they are afraid of them. How are you going to know in advance if you need your secondary to be ready?  There should be only one condition of carry outside the wire, round in the chamber, hammer back, weapon on safe.



Not afraid of any weapon, I know my drills and follow them to the letter.

Things have to be pretty bad for me to have to use my 9mm.         

Regards


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## George Wallace (28 Jan 2008)

So, you find it easier to play with the Safety in a hurry, than to allow "muscle memory" work on "cocking" the action as part of a normal reaction?  

I know.....personal preferences and experience/skill will dictate.


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## KevinB (28 Jan 2008)

For a while Safariland was not selling the C&L version of the BHP 6004.

 So we cut a half moon in the hoods





As for muscle memory -- do you carry your C8/C7 readied - yes you do, the BHP is the SAME principle - that is exactly what Cocked and Locked is.

Anyone recommending running a single action pistol in a non cocked and lcoked method is lacking in both knowledge of the pistols operation and/or the skill to run it.  I've taken pistol training from some the top military instructors in the world - and that is exactly how they teach operating it.

 BigRed and I both run 1911 pistols in Iraq -- these are essentially the same principle as the BHP and we run them cocked and locked.

If your not carrying your pistol ready to go - then why carry it?  If you need a pistol - YOU NEED a pistol - you dont have time to run the slide or retardedly try to thumb back the hammer (which is ridiculously unsafe and I will go on a rant on that when I get back from a mission.)

More to follow


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## Eric_911 (28 Jan 2008)

Big Red said:
			
		

> There should be only one condition of carry outside the wire, round in the chamber, hammer back, weapon on safe.



+1 mon ami.... 



			
				mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> "Why didn't you buy the version that allows for Condition 1 carry?"



I did not know what the lead time was on these holsters. I have been looking around for a holster of this nature for a while. Went to R Nicholls and sitting all by its lonesome, calling my name, was the version which I purchased, pictured on my original post. Since I'm hitting the pistol range tomorrow for the last time until I deploy, I wanted to ensure I had some hands-on time with it. IMO, making the notch is a small price to pay for the peace of mind of knowing that this type of holster is the right one for me. 



			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> For a while Safariland was not selling the C&L version of the BHP 6004. So we cut a half moon in the hoods



*Thanks for the pic I-6. Can you clarify for me the fol since I seem to getting a little bit of a conflicting msg:*



			
				Recce By Death said:
			
		

> There is no need to cut the strap to keep a BHP cocked while holstered as there is, in my experience, enough room for it.



*- Is the notch definately required on the backstrap to secure the weapon (The BHP) in the cocked position?*



			
				Big Red said:
			
		

> Looks fine. Just take a BHP put it in the holster cocked and cut a notch with a gerber/hacksaw/shears till it fits. It's not terribly complicated. Also ditch the top strap and shorten the drop leg portion and it will ride much better.



Thanks for the tips Big Red, I'll give it a go with the ol' SOG on the range tomorrow.

Wow, I think I lit the quote button on fire.....


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## George Wallace (28 Jan 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> As for muscle memory -- do you carry your C8/C7 readied - yes you do, the BHP is the SAME principle - that is exactly what Cocked and Locked is.



I'm not in the habit of arguing with you or Big Red, but the Safety on the C7/C8 is not as likely to be a "bas tard" to operate as the Safety on the BHP.


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## blacktriangle (29 Jan 2008)

Quick question while you guys are talking about the BHP. 

I have very limited experience with the weapon and pistols in general, and was taught to do all my drills in my right hand, even though I am left handed. I've always found this awkward and stupid as it requires me to take my control hand off the pistol, have I been taught wrong? 

Sorry to be off topic but there isn't a hell of a lot of pistol experience where I am...


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## Big Red (29 Jan 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I have very limited experience with the weapon and pistols in general, and was taught to do all my drills in my right hand, even though I am left handed. I've always found this awkward and stupid as it requires me to take my control hand off the pistol, have I been taught wrong?



You were taught wrong. Your pistol should stay in your dominant hand.


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## Eric_911 (29 Jan 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> I have seen some guys have a round up the spout, manually de-cock it, then take the mag out and put in an extra round.



...Yeah..... I'm no expert, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I really hope, that if a person did this "manual de-cocking" with a round in the chamber, that they left it at half cock, and not fully forward. 

I'm pretty sure there is no "hammer blocking or firing pin blocking safety" on the BHP when the hammer is fully forward, and any sudden strike to the hammer (something falls/smashes/hits it) would possibly result in the weapon discharging.

If a person really adament about having that 14th round, why not just chamber a round, put the wpn on safe (none of this "manual de-cock"), top up your mag, re-insert, and then bob's-your-uncle? (Yes, the hammer is to the rear) Is this not the normal way of popping in the 13 + 1 the BHP is capable of accomodating?

Fecking around with decocking a weapon which is not made to decock seems a little...dangerous?


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## KevinB (29 Jan 2008)

I've seen a lot of stupid people manually decock hammer FULLY forward (and thus no safety) with a round in the chamber -- they thought this was somewhat safer.
 I've also seen CF members lower it manually to halfcock - and leave the gun there - off safe - thinking they could thumb it back quicker.  
Eric_911 - the CF pistols do not have a firing pin safety so you are correct this measure is extraordinarily dangerous.  I would recommend charging those who perform either of the two above method with negligent performance of duties.

George, I agree that the safety on the No.2 Mk1* Inglis pistols is not ideal -- however with some time on the pistol and some work oiling it and working it on and off - you can get it so you are very easily able to drawn, punch out while coming off safe and firing in one smooth motion.

Since most of the CF mags are in a bad way - there is no way I would be topping of the mag after chambering one.

BigRed is 100% correct - your dominant hand is the one to do the drills with, I'm not a lefty but a few of my firends are and they have been doing drills with BHP and Sig's with their left hands -- you then need to ensure you have a left handed holster too.


 For cutting the hood - it will depend upon which version of the BHP you have -- I needed to cut mine to lock the hoodstrap when I got mine in order to retain my BHP - as it could not be carried C&L with the hood latched.


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## Franko (29 Jan 2008)

Eric_911 said:
			
		

> *- Is the notch definately required on the backstrap to secure the weapon (The BHP) in the cocked position?*



When you go to the range, try it out and cut for clearance until it's right.



			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I've seen a lot of stupid people manually decock hammer FULLY forward (and thus no safety) with a round in the chamber -- they thought this was somewhat safer.
> I've also seen CF members lower it manually to halfcock - and leave the gun there - off safe - thinking they could thumb it back quicker.



People wonder why they have NDs 'eh? Seen it too many times with people of a higher rank than mine and tell me they know what they're doing.

Two weeks later they have an ND.

PM inbound.

Regards


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## Eric_911 (29 Jan 2008)

Just got back from the range. (Did not get to shoot as much as I would have liked, I guess them's the breaks).

Carved up the holster as described, and it works pretty good with the hammer in the rear position. (C&L)






Thanks all for the tips.

Cheers,
Eric


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## glock17 (29 Jan 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I've seen a lot of stupid people manually decock hammer FULLY forward (and thus no safety) with a round in the chamber -- they thought this was somewhat safer.
> I've also seen CF members lower it manually to halfcock - and leave the gun there - off safe - thinking they could thumb it back quicker.
> Eric_911 - the CF pistols do not have a firing pin safety so you are correct this measure is extraordinarily dangerous.  I would recommend charging those who perform either of the two above method with negligent performance of duties.
> 
> ...



I agree with I-6 in regards to the half cock and de-cocking manually issues, both are ridiculous and dangerous for the BHP. And Big Red is right as well in regards to left handed functions and drills, it would be nice to have ambidextrous controls, but the lefties can get used to getting the slide lock and mag release with their left index fingers, it takes time and practice. I can do it quite well, as do many of my students and I'm right handed. Hopefully a change to a more updated system is in the future....probably distant future.

However, the issue of carrying the pistol cocked and locked is not as cut and dried as presented, and being somewhat involved in the debate with the CF as I have been over the last three years, I feel somewhat qualified to comment. In regards to those individuals who get appropriate levels of training, and opportunities to practice sufficiently, there is no issue with carrying the pistol fully readied, round in the chamber, manual safety engaged. 
However, we all know that many of those issued the BHP, have little or no training, have little or no opportunity to practice, and/or little or no desire to.( don't flame yet ) The comparison in the state of readiness between the primary weapon and the secondary is probably unfair, of-course the primary is readied, it is after all, primary. The failure of the primary weapon will result in the first IA, hopefully to produce the effect of repairing whatever stoppage and re-engaging the threat, if that fails then the second IA will likely produce the desired result. If not? then transition to the secondary weapon. Many have done away with the IA's alltogether and initiated the transition immediately upon stoppage of the primary, and given the training and imminent threat, this may very well be the appropriate action. And if the BHP is carried hammer down on an empty chamber it MAY/MAY NOT take a fraction of a second longer to cock it on the draw than to dis-engage the safety, given the operator has had sufficient time to practice and that the operator has use of both hands/arms. All kinds of variables come into play here.

My school of thought is that the thumbs don't seem to work very well under stress, and hitting that little tiny safety when the moment of truth comes, may prove to be more difficult then ripping the slide back with the base of the palm and all four fingers while driving the pistol out towards the threat. I have had two groups, trained in one method each, on the range simultainiously, and the folks cocking on the draw were quite a bit faster in fact, than those trying to hit that safety. ( and this only under the stress of trying to look competant ) Practice can overcome this, and in the case of I-6 and Big Red it's probably not an issue.

My point is this, for the majority of CF members issued the pistol, I believe the threat of a ND due to the weapon being cocked and locked: Is greater when handled by someone trained to a level less than what is required, or carried in such a manner that the safety may become dis-engaged, such as in ill fitting holsters (Bianchi etc) or stuffed in mag pouches (ouch!). And may present a greater danger than the likelyhood of having the primary weapon malfunction, with an immediate threat that requires the use of the secondary weapon, in such a circumstance, that having to cock on the draw, would make the difference in that particular incident. ( Clear as mud, see?)

Of-course it would be ideal if everybody carried the pistol ready, but until the training issues are remedied, I believe it is impractical and even dangerous in many cases.  Doesn't mean we give up on the training, just means we try harder to get everyone up to speed.

Stay Safe


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## glock17 (29 Jan 2008)

Or, if they're not qualified to employ the weapon properly, don't issue it to them?


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2008)

Well said Glock17.  This was the training I received, but I acknowledge that others have trained differently, and personal preferences won't change, nor should they if the operators are confident and proficient.  To me the cocking while thrusting the weapon towards the enemy seems more comfortable.  I, however, have not had the experience of I6 or Big Red and am quite an amateur when compared to them.


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## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2008)

G17, fully agree!  

My understanding was always that TOETs provide for three states of the BHP: empty/proven, loaded and readied.  Readied is with safety on unless immediately prepared to fire.  Readied half-cocked or readied manually de-cocked simply aren't acceptable weapon states for the BHP.  

As I-6 will attest to, while I am dashingly good looking (I-6 once even used the term "devastatingly good looking"...I believe it was in a sort of a "guys having having a few brews together by the bonfire, and 'it's all good' kind of way"  8) , but I digress), I am still an AF guy who should be afforded only minimal mutual respect when it comes to personal weapons because I don't sleep with my BHP under my pillow.  I was more comfortable, as were all those around me I'm sure, to carry loaded, and then ready as required -- less risk not finding the safety as you alluded to, and definitely less risk in the clearing bay...well that, and I only had that piece of crap Bianchi tourniquette.

Cheers,
G2G


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## KevinB (30 Jan 2008)

G2G considering you've probably had more small arms training than 90% of the Army...

G17 under 50M I immediately transition.  
  The CF's pistol training ciriculum beyond CANSOF is abysmal -- but in all reality the long gun training is not far behind it, with gunfighter just starting to scratch the surface, or where one should be.



Two things need to be done to the BHP

1 - REMOVE THE MAG SAFETY, its unsafe and causes (as a chain of events) ND's.  The C7/8's dont have a mag safety - get rid of the one on the BHP (I always used to), it will also clean up your trigger pull -- but make a slightly longer trigger reset.  

2 - Add a tritium dot front sight.


 I'd also like to see a more ergonomically designed safety, and thinner grips.

I'd really like to see a SigP226R or G19 adopted as the new service pistol (well I'd really like to see a semi-custom 1911 in .45 but back to reality) but for the interin, those improvements could be done for next to nothing.


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## glock17 (30 Jan 2008)

I  agree with everything except the SIG, which will likely mean that's the way they will eventually go. I don't see the need for a hammer anymore, and it sits too high in the hand.( For my liking ) Well built machine, no question, but IMHO, old technology. Either of Glocks would do nicely, simple to operate, durable, and inexpensive. Let's get on with it, right.

BTW, the first thing I did to my BHP's was rip out the mag safety, the ones I have now, and the ones I had twenty years ago......

As far as training goes?  How could I possibly disagree?  I think they should hire a bunch of Professionals to come in and help out..... 8)

Stay Safe Buddy


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## Canadian Sig (2 Feb 2008)

I finally got to qualify on the Sig the other day (pre-deployment) and I have to say i love shooting that pistol. The decocking lever would IM very HO cut the ND situation greatly amongst sadly undertrained (myself included) shooters.

My only complaint was that we qualified on P225s rather than the 226 we are hoping to carry and the smaller grip caused my pinkie finger to feel like it was hanging off the bottom of the grip.


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## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2008)

[slightly OT]

What was the purpose of the BHP's mag "safety"?  I dare say it has been a partial contributing factor in probably a few BHP NDs.

G2G


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## Eric_911 (2 Feb 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I dare say it has been a partial contributing factor in probably a few BHP NDs.



This is not knocking you G2G, but, throughout this thread, the magazine disconnect safety has been blamed a lot for causing or contributing to ND's. 

I would like to re-inforce that the magazine disconnect on the BHP does not magically and un-expectedly shoot off bullets. It is the operator 98% of the time.

The causes of ND's

-Improper training or lack of training
-People "making up" drills and TTP's for the weapon
-People not understanding the basic concept of how the weapon functions, 
-Fatigue,
-and lastly, fault in the weapon. (the other 2%)

_I watched a person on a range stop firing and clear their weapon by: removing mag, locking the slide to the rear, inspect the chamber to verify that it was clear, then re-insert a loaded mag (wouldnt have been a problem if the slide was already forward), hit the slide-lock lever and fire the action. bam. ND.

I have also seen (more then one person) "clear" their BHP, inspect the chamber and fire the action without removing the source of ammo (the mag). ND.

In these two instances, perhaps it was the 10-15 minutes of TOET's prior to going onto the range which was the contributing factor?_

This pistol has been used since WW2. It may not be the best weapon, or the most modern, but its all we have for now, and its definately better then nothing. Christ, if it was a good enough weapon for my Grand-Father and my Father, then its good enough for me.



			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> What was the purpose of the BHP's mag "safety"?



I would venture, that in 1935, when the pistol was designed, the "Magazine-Disconnect safety" was probably a new and innovative idea of how to stop ND's from occuring.

Since, "in theory" you would never shoot a pistol without a mag inserted, the Mag-Disconnect ensured that the weapon would not fire, in case someone was foolish enough to somehow leave a round in the chamber and remove the mag.


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## glock17 (2 Feb 2008)

While I agree with the direction of your response Eric, I would wonder why pistols made in the 21st century, by the worlds leading manufacturer are still hitting the shop floor with mag safeties?

M&P?

Almost every other S&W pistol designed for Law Enforcement use?

I think it might provide the Police Officer with a margin of safety, I've heard them discuss hitting the mag release during a struggle for the weapon, thereby disabling it for their attacker.  Poor planning in my opinion, but I have heard of it.

I believe that some jurisdictions even specify them for law enforcement use, but I will find reference to this for the thread.

And even after that, I still agree, ND's are exactly that, negligent, and can be reduced through proper training.


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## Good2Golf (2 Feb 2008)

Eric, no offense taken.  I agree with you that properly conducted, the BHP's TOET's and IAs and stoppages drills should not result in improper discharge of the weapon.  My point about the mag safety was exactly related to your first example, however, that having to re-insert a magazine to fire the action is likely a contributing factor to tsuch an ND.  Should the operator have released the slide PRIOR to inserting the mag?  Absolutely!  Does that always happen?  Well, we know that it doesn't.  If the mag safety were not there, and it was possible to clear your weapon, fire the action dry without having to insert a mag, that would be one less situation where an ND could occur.  Perhaps I should have taken a different tact on my question - turned it into a statement...I think that a pistol with a mag safety results in counter intuitive actions having to be taken to clear and prove a weapon.  The insertion of a magazine, even after the slide has been released forward, but prior to dry firing the action, I believe, is not conductive to the most intuitive (and I would think, safe) handling of the weapon.  Maybe it is just me, but for a single-action pistol, I personally feel that: clear chamber, release slide, dry-fire action and reinsert mag, is a much better sequence.

While the mag safety safeguards against a "round in the chamber, action readied, but a mag out, thus don't want the weapon to fire", I think this is a red herring argument...the odds of that configuration inadvertently occurring and having to be safeguarded are slim at best.  In fact, the only time I can see a round up the spout and no mag, would be in the case where you were counting your rounds while engaging, and dropped the empty mag for a fresh mag while not firing the last round, so that you could continue engaging with your weapon upon inserting the fresh mag without having to release the slide again after that last shot from the first mag was squeezed off.  In any event, you would full well have control of the weapon and know what you were doing.  It's not like there would be a weapon sitting on a table with no mag, but the hammer back, and someone would come along and just "pull the trigger on the unproven weapon"

G2G


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## KevinB (3 Feb 2008)

WRT the ND's -- the issue is you need to reload the weapon while still clearing the action -- and while it is operator error -- I generally try to strive to minimise areas where accidents can happen and Mr. Murphy can strike.

 As well due to the general low level of pistol training and competence it would be a better idea to make the manual of arms the same as the C7/C8 series --


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## Eric_911 (3 Feb 2008)

I-6, G2G, and G17, I agree with you all. The BHP was a pistol designed for a different era. I was not trying to imply that the mag-disconnect was a good feature, I am definitely not fond of it. I just wanted to point out that it is way too convenient for people to blame the pistol for ND's, when, in reality, it is the individuals own fault.

As to why pistols are still developed with mag-disconnects? Couldn't tell you. Maybe "dinosaur thinking" which is still occurring in some circles?  

We can hope that the next generation of pistol for the CF has more thought put into it, as well as some serious end-user input.



			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> It's not like there would be a weapon sitting on a table with no mag, but the hammer back, and someone would come along and just "pull the trigger on the unproven weapon"



I would hope not... unless you deal crack out of your apartment during your off-time  ;D

Cheers,
Eric

_edit for spelling_


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## Good2Golf (3 Feb 2008)

Eric_911 said:
			
		

> ....I would hope not... unless you deal crack out of you're apartment during your off-time  ;D



...or you're this guy.  :

Cheers

G2G


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## 1feral1 (3 Feb 2008)

When in theatre, and outside the wire, my BHP Mk III, had one up the spout and on safe. I left it at that, and once back behind the wire, it was properly unloaded IAW the drills and standard of the FOB.  Loaded mags were in pouches when at the 'unload', so we always had ammo. With the exception of a shower, or sleeping, we were always armed, this included PT and sports. 

EDIT: All Australian pistols have the magazine safety removed. I don't know if the CF still have them installed. This was a recent mod, and has changed the handling drills in the pam, as you can imagine.

Although I am very confident on the BHP (since 1976 - and own one [yes, a T series Inglis] from 1980 til now), I have never bothered with the 14th rd (on issue pistols - 10 rds on private mags since the early 1990s). All the fucking about with this process off adding that extra rd, although simple, I just think its better left alone. However, if it floats your boat, feel free. 

I used two holsters in Iraq, depending on my mood. An old CF issue 82 Ptrn and belt, and the CF Armoured Corps shoulder holster (c.1991). I steered clear of the Aussie ones, as I was not comfortable with them. I still use the CF ones here on Ex too, but tend to stick to the shoulder holster, as the hip one gets caught up in the hatches of the LAV.

Cheers,

Wes


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## glock17 (4 Feb 2008)

Eric_911 said:
			
		

> As to why pistols are still developed with mag-disconnects? Couldn't tell you. Maybe "dinosaur thinking" which is still occurring in some circles?
> 
> _edit for spelling_



I haven't found a direct link yet, but apparantly California has introduced legislation that requires all new handguns sold there to have both a magazine disconnect and a loaded chamber indicator, and the law took effect 1/1/08...This is off a bunch of other boards I ran across...still looking.


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## glock17 (4 Feb 2008)

Here's the California legislation regarding "Unsafe Handguns".

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php

(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center-fire semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism. 
(6) Commencing January 1, 2006, for all rimfire semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have a magazine disconnect mechanism, if it has a detachable magazine. 
(c) As used in this section, a "chamber load indicator" means a device that plainly indicates that a cartridge is in the firing chamber. A device satisfies this definition if it is readily visible, has incorporated or adjacent explanatory text or graphics, or both, and is designed and intended to indicate to a reasonably foreseeable adult user of the pistol, without requiring the user to refer to a user's manual or any other resource other than the pistol itself, whether a cartridge is in the firing chamber. 
(d) As used in this section, a "magazine disconnect mechanism" means a mechanism that prevents a semiautomatic pistol that has a detachable magazine from operating to strike the primer of ammunition in the firing chamber when a detachable magazine is not inserted in the semiautomatic pistol.  

Isn't that special

Stay Safe


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## 1feral1 (4 Feb 2008)

Coming from the PRK, and all their silly gun regs, I am not suprised.


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