# Fd Ambs vs Original Units



## medic2ic (1 Apr 2005)

There has been a lot of discussion with the whole switch over with the medical world. Where do you (medics) think we belong? With our new Fd Ambs or should we have been kept with our original units be they Svc Bn's, Arty, Inf, Armd.....


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## medic2ic (1 Apr 2005)

And how stupid am I... I just created the poll and voted myself... and don't I click on the wrong thingy... jeez... Okay my vote goes for "original units," screwed the thing up right off the bat, right on! jeez....    :


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## McG (1 Apr 2005)

Is there a middle answer?


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## medic2ic (1 Apr 2005)

Well isn't that the fanciest thing.... I could change my vote after all... Thanks MCG!!!!     

I put a middle vote in there for those that are "on the fence" as it where.


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## Armymedic (1 Apr 2005)

It doesn't really matter how you would ask the question on this forum, i think you will get an overwhelming response in favour of the medics staying with their units. Unfortunately, an infanteer, engineer, clerk, sailor, or aircrew doesn't have the slightest idea about how much training or work it requires to provide first line medical care. The medical system has been struggling with restructure for many yrs, and has finally have a major plan in place. In the past, CFMG has been inefficient due to duplication of services, and the lack of man power, particularly in trained MO's has emphasised this. Also areas like med records and pharmacy have been a drain on manpower and funds due to the nature of each unit UMS having to have 2-3 pers dedicated to those jobs, instead of being able to do other things like continuation training. Part of the things that you don't see outside the medical system is the implementation of mandated training, maintenance of competency testing, and the increases emphasis on civilian equivalency. If medics can't come together, then how can group training and a achievable standard of compency be effectively run?

You know its good to see your medic out there carrying the C6 or along side doing a section attack with you, but thats not what we are paid to do...we are paid to ensure the health of the CF individual in order to maintain combat effectiveness...I am not judged on my ability as a Sgt to do infantry stuff, but assess patients or to plan and organize an effective medevac chain. To learn to do that, I need to learn from other medical pers, not a 031, 011, or whatever...

I understand how you feel, and I had to be sold on the way things ARE GOING TO BE....but now that I know and understand the reason, the plan and the goal. I am fully in support of what CFMG is doing and hope that NCOs like myself, and the officers that implement the plans make it effective in support of you and develop our jr medics to be able to carry on supporting you in the future.

Not that anyones opinion here will change anything that is already decided at CF Health Svc Gp HQ...


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2005)

It's the same with clerks, actually, and I mentioned the rumour of clerks being sent back to service battalions in the reserve world.  I can understand centralization of training, but you know what? I think unit integrity is more important.  If my clerk isn't up on the latest and greatest way to file a piece of paper, but is there to drive the OC, work out a pay problem for a troop and go the extra mile by staying after dismissal to do it, because he's done fire piquet with him, man a radio or cover off a defensive position during a field firing exercise....great.  Maybe he's not "paid to do it" but building strong unit cohesion - in the reserve world  - means the difference between a strong, viable unit and one that gets axed.

I guess that's just one side of the coin though.  Doubtless I'd be a better clerk if I worked in an ASC and learned the ins and outs of my trade from top to bottom.  God knows I didn't learn a damn thing in Borden.  But speaking for myself, I'm not terribly interested in being a really good PA guy in an ASC.  I LIKE doing the field training with my unit, and if that were taken away from me, guess what - one less clerk in the Army cause I'd go buh bye. I know there were a few medics in different units that did the same thing.

I rail about our "age of entitlement" as much as the next person, but there is a reality, at least in the reserves, that job satisfaction has to remain high on a personal level. It's just too easy to quit and find other work, and once someone is in for 10 years, they usually don't "need" a second job any more.  It's a huge pain in the ass for me, frankly, working 5 days a week and then two evenings and some weekends on top of it - doing 12 days in a row without a rest.  But I enjoy it.  I won't do that once it stops being fun.

Food for thought - let the debate continue, though as you say, these decisions seem to have been made at least as far as the medics go.


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## Fraser.g (1 Apr 2005)

I the regular force world there are career manglers and full time staff to look after a soldiers career progression. In the reserve world (lets be honest here) there is only one person looking after your military career, YOU!
If you belong to a unit that is dedicated to your trade, you get the courses, your skills are somewhat maintained, and you have the opportunity to do combined training within your trade.

If you belong to a unit that does not have your trade as their primary concern then you tend to fall through the cracks. I know that this happens allot from  both personal and anecdotal evidence and not only in the medical field.

As armymedic stated, it takes allot of work to maintain and train a good medic. If you are out there by your self with out a trade specific chain to supervise you your skills dwindle and you get forgotten, then if you can not do your MCSP you are not aloud to practice as a medic pure and simple. 

I was a combat engineer that was posted into an infantry unit because there was not an engineer unit within 38 brigade. Yes, the other troops liked to see an engineer asset on the ground. The CO liked to say that he had an engineer asset when no one else in the brigade had one but for all that it was hard for me to get courses or takings. Finally it got to the point that there was no point in carrying on in the trade because the other engineer units were busy taking care of their own people and who would give up a spot on a 6a for Lil ole me when they could fill it with one of their own.

I can give any one who wants specific examples of this happening with medics attached to combat arms units if they want or you could probably ask Combat Medic about it as well. ;D

Michael, I can relate to your situation and your desire to be affiliated with your unit. The difference is that I am confident that your unit has a CC and other admin pers of several ranks to supervise and ensure that you are doing your job correctly. For the majority of medics in combat arms units the supervision is not there.

The change is disrupting many pers who have found their happy place within other units but it is my strong belief that this change is the best for CFMG and all medics.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2005)

Good distinction to make - obviously, keeping up skills and getting relevant medical training would need to be a priority.  I suppose if there were larger medical establishments in the units - and the ability to keep them up to strength - that wouldn't be a problem...but since all the units are being divested of support resources at an alarming rate....

I see your point, though.


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## Fraser.g (1 Apr 2005)

How big would it go before we could call it indipendant of the local Fd Amb?

A detachement? (5 Medics superivsed by a MCpl) by the way requiring atleast a MLVW and LSVW dedicated. 

A Section (10 Medics supervised by a 6a Sargent) Now you need to dedicate 2 MLVWs with trailer, and 3 LSVWs with trailer)

A Med Platoon (23 all ranks including a MO/ NO/PA/ HCA) now we are up to 12 - 14 trucks.

A composite Med Platoon (add a Amb det to the above)

As you can see, the medical branch eats up resources quickly and I do not know of any resrve organization that could accomodate even a det in space and physical resources not to meniton MCSP.

GF

If there were a full UMS per combat arms unit


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## Tpr.Orange (2 Apr 2005)

I would rather have a FD Amb that deals with the training, but has medics attached to specfic units, not carrying the C6's or doing anything but their specific job. 

I am a firm believer that there should always be medics that are known in the unit or are attached with the unit so troops can build a rapore with them .


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## Fraser.g (2 Apr 2005)

CFN. Orange said:
			
		

> I would rather have a FD Amb that deals with the training, but has medics attached to specific units, not carrying the C6's or doing anything but their specific job.
> 
> I am a firm believer that there should always be medics that are known in the unit or are attached with the unit so troops can build a rapore with them .



How could you have both? If they are attached to the unit then how do they maintain their training? If they are with the amb they train and maintain competencies. If they are with the combat arms units then they do med coverage and their skill sets wither  so that although they may be trusted by the members of the unit they are not clinically competent. The first line of trust is to be clinically proficient otherwise that trust is missplaced.

There is nothing to say that when a unit puts in for support there is not a small cadre that puts in for the tasking. Usually there are one or two that always want to go out with the tanks or infantry or guns.


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## Armymedic (2 Apr 2005)

And thats w





			
				CFN. Orange said:
			
		

> I would rather have a FD Amb that deals with the training, but has medics attached to specfic units, not carrying the C6's or doing anything but their specific job.
> 
> I am a firm believer that there should always be medics that are known in the unit or are attached with the unit so troops can build a rapore with them .



and that is what we in the regular force are trying to do...Maintain a UMS sect for each unit that is dedicated to maintaining the UMS and the medical "face" in the unit. That face may only be a Sgt and 3 or 4 Cpls, but they will be most often there for your unit.


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## Zombie (2 Apr 2005)

Please forgive my lack of knowledge on this, but I have searched to find out what exactly is meant by FD Amb with no success. 

I am applying to the reg force 737, and would like to get better grasp on these discussions. Can anyone explain?


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## Armymedic (2 Apr 2005)

Field Ambulances are the unit that provides the army brigade its medical support.

The Canadian doctrine is that a Fd Amb consists of a HQ element, A Medical Company with 3 medical platoons, a Ambluance company with 15-20 ambulances, the Brigade pharmacy, a dental platoon and a Services platoon.

They provide amb evac from the back door of the UMS to the brigade medical station, from which Fd Hosp evacs to the 1 Cdn Fd Hosp.

In garrison Fd Amb provides all the admin, command and control of brigade medical assets. The RSM of Fd amb is the main force in employment, training and career management of all the 737 in the brigade.


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## Zombie (3 Apr 2005)

Thanks Armymedic, appreciate the information...


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## DSB (3 Apr 2005)

As a member of a MED COY that switched to FD AMB I can tell you some of the changes:

We have new names for some of our platoons/companies, and we get to see and train with 'attached' medics more often.  

The training for all medics will benefit form the new arrangement.  Us former MED COY medics get experience teaching 'new' medics, (medics that used to belong to other units), and they get to teach us their skills sets and pass on their knowledge.  The FD AMB can ensure that everyone gets a crack at meaningful training and can work to standardise skill sets, (to a minimum degree anyway).  After some of the kinks are worked out I believe the brigage will benefit with more competent medics.  Win win for all, (expect the medics that really enjoyed belong to other units, giving that up does suck for them).
DSB


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## slim300 (22 Apr 2005)

As much as there are some major growing pains with pulling all the medics back under command of Fd Amb, I think that it is a smart decision in the long run for all the reasons stated above.

As far as the res Fd Amb's are concerned, I don't know how things look from 23's perspective DSB, but one of 28 Fd Amb's biggest issues is allowing Medics to be attached to the cbt arms units in the local area... the current line of thought seems to be that we need all the units in Ottawa to bolster our numbers on trg nights so we can't afford to give anyone to the other units.  Really this just ends up being poor medical care for those who need it.

MCSP is too cumbersome in it's current format too, but that's a whole other fish to fry.

Cheers.
Slim


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## DSB (26 Apr 2005)

yo slim, 


Did we work in the MIR in Meaford together?  Summer 2000 i think.  Baby Jenkins' summer!

DSB


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## slim300 (27 Apr 2005)

Haha,
almost forgot about baby Jenkins.  How was Australia buddy?


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