# Should I even bother?



## lexmark (25 Feb 2009)

Hello. I probably already know the answer to my question but I thought I would ask it anyway.

I'm a U.S. citizen living here in Canada. I don't have my citizenship yet but I plan to go for it maybe this year or the next. I also served in the US Navy, however, I was given an "Other Than Honorable" discharge. 

With that type of discharge, should I even bother pursuing enlistment in the forces or would  that be a deal-breaker from the word "go"?

Thanks in advance.


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## PMedMoe (25 Feb 2009)

I'm thinking the "Other than honorable discharge" thing would be a deal-breaker, but since you're not even a citizen, it's a moot point.


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## lexmark (25 Feb 2009)

I thought so but I also wouldn't even attempt until I had citizenship, which I plan to get.


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## aesop081 (25 Feb 2009)

Should i dare ask what you were discharged for ?


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## Smirnoff123 (25 Feb 2009)

The way I look at it, the worst they can say is no.


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## HollywoodHitman (26 Feb 2009)

You no longer need to be a citizen to join the CF. Permanent resident will do to get you started. I'd head on down to a CFRC and ask them flat out. Bring your documentation and let the system decide.


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## Journeyman (26 Feb 2009)

lexmark said:
			
		

> I was given an "Other Than Honorable" discharge.



Enlisted Administrative Separations
Under Other Than Honorable Conditions.

OTH Discharges are warranted when the reason for separation is based upon a *pattern of behavior that constitutes a significant departure from the conduct expected  * of members of the Military Services.

Examples include:*desertion; conscientious objector who refuses to perform military duties; willful or persistent misconduct; offenses involving moral turpitude.* 



Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure why you'd come to a Canadian, military-related site, seek encouragement to join our military, when you've _apparently_ failed to meet the expected behaviour standards of your own.


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## George Wallace (26 Feb 2009)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> You no longer need to be a citizen to join the CF. Permanent resident will do to get you started. I'd head on down to a CFRC and ask them flat out. Bring your documentation and let the system decide.




???


I have absolutely no idea where you got this information, but it sure wasn't from any CF source.


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## HollywoodHitman (26 Feb 2009)

George, it is indeed from a CF related source. It was emailed to me on the DIN via recruiting contacts. I'll look for the email but this is directly from the recruiting site   "Citizens of another country  who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country."

This is new stuff.

Cheers,

HH


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## beach_bum (26 Feb 2009)

That's not new.  Read the exceptional circumstances portion.  This mainly would apply to things like Doctors etc.  Skills that are hard to fill.


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## HollywoodHitman (26 Feb 2009)

It's been released to the PRes to actively recruit permanent residents. My recruiters are submitting applications for permanent residents based on the email sent to us. Waiting on someone to re-send me the email and I will post the guts - Beachbum, the exceptional circumstances are not new, you're right.


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## George Wallace (26 Feb 2009)

I agree.  That is not new, and there are caveats.  The individual has to submit memorandum and documents to the Comd of CFRG and go through a detailed process.

This document was put out on 16  September 2004


> RECRUITING DIRECTIVE 01/04 –
> PROCESSING OF NON-CANADIAN APPLICANTS
> 
> References:  A.  QR&O 6.01
> ...



It states:



> Reference A states that in order to be eligible for enrolment in the Canadian Forces an applicant must be a Canadian citizen.  In rare circumstances only, a waiver may be granted to citizens of other countries who hold permanent resident status in Canada.   This waiver can only be granted if the Canadian Forces has a need for a unique set of skills held by the potential applicant, a Canadian citizen cannot fill the position for which the waiver is sought and the national interest would not be prejudiced.  Being the citizen of a member nation of the British Commonwealth does not alter this requirement nor does being considered as qualified in the occupation being sought.  This means that in order to be considered at all for processing, the applicant must be skilled or semi-skilled for a specific MOC and hold permanent resident status in Canada.  Those that may qualify must apply to Canadian Forces Recruiting Group Headquarters (CFRG HQ) for a waiver of citizenship requirement for enrolment (delegated to Comd CFRG by CDS at Ref B).  All other applicants should be advised of these criteria and encouraged to reapply once they have met the minimum standards.



The minimum standards would be attaining Canadian citizenship, the age and education requirements.



> *PROCEDURES*
> 
> The steps outlined in the following paragraphs have been developed to make the process for non-Canadian applicants as simple as possible.  The majority of the decision-making process will rest with CFRG HQ and, to some extent, with the particular Branch Advisor (BA) or Managing Authority (MA).  These steps, if followed in the order given, will also help to ensure that an applicant will be processed as expeditiously as possible while still respecting the policies and procedures for hiring non-Canadians laid out by both the CF and the Government of Canada.  That said, this process will take anywhere from one to two years to complete for the majority of applicants.
> 
> ...


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## HollywoodHitman (26 Feb 2009)

George,

I'm not disagreeing with you. That was the latest and greatest -  and I know that I need to back up my statement with supporting docs and refs. I'm waiting to get it re-sent to me so I can post it here. It's a very recent change - only weeks old. 

MTF.

Cheers,

HH


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## MARS (26 Feb 2009)

HH is correct.  I try not to micro manage my recruiter, but she did show me a recently released message indicating that Permanent Residents are now able to apply without having to be included under the previous caveat.  I only gave it a cursory read, but I will dig it up and post it tomorrow unless someone else does it first. Needless to say, the last job fair my recruiter attended a couple of days ago netted a 10 fold increase in the number of applications to the Naval Reserve.


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## Rec Centre Toronto CO (26 Feb 2009)

Allow me to clarify this issue.
Canadian Permanent Resident is considered on equal footing as Canadian Citizenship for enrollment purposes.  This was changed very recently.


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## Occam (26 Feb 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Examples include:*desertion; conscientious objector who refuses to perform military duties; willful or persistent misconduct; offenses involving moral turpitude.*



I was curious about the term "moral turpitude", which apparently has a very specific meaning in the United States.  Definitions vary, but the most well-defined explanation is found on the Department of State website, dealing with Immigration law.  "Moral turpitude" includes such heinous acts as rape, murder and manslaughter - but also includes acts such as sodomy and adultery.  They're not even offences in Canada, and some might argue that a career in the CF is kind of like getting bent over by someone who is not your husband or wife.


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## lexmark (26 Feb 2009)

"Speaking only for myself, I'm not sure why you'd come to a Canadian, military-related site, seek encouragement to join our military, when you've apparently failed to meet the expected behaviour standards of your own."

At the risk of being slammed, which doesn't really bother me, I went U/A(AWOL) for just long enough to be guaranteed a discharge. That's the only reason. I never had any other problems in the military. Never disciplined and even had a good conduct medal. I liked being in the navy. I liked serving on a destroyer and going to sea. However, I knew that I was unable to do my job and I did what I felt I had to do. I had 2 years left on my contract and no way to switch jobs. Wrong or right, it's what I did.

I was a fire controlman and early on in my schooling, I realized I just plain didn't have the aptitude to track down faults and repair electrical equipment. I am just not one of those people. I tried to get out of it and switch jobs at my first school, to no success, and somehow managed to make it through all 3 schools and go to a ship. Which, as many of you probably know, isn't that difficult when the military has invested ten's of thousand's of dollars on your training. They aren't about to let a little thing like having no clue how to do the troubleshooting and repairing of your equipment stop you. So long as you get through the training. But I tried and did my best and when I got to the ship where the faults and breakdowns aren't put into the system by an instructor, I knew that i was screwed.

I left because I didn't want my shipmates depending on me to fix a critical piece of equipment and not having a clue how to go about it. Having said all that, if I felt that I was able to completely perform all my duties, I would still be in the navy.


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## aesop081 (26 Feb 2009)

lexmark said:
			
		

> , I went U/A(AWOL)



Oh i see. By all means, come join my military.



> I left because I didn't want my shipmates depending on me to fix a critical piece of equipment and not having a clue how to go about it.



Did you ever think that knowing your job comes with hands-on experience. You dont get that experience by going AWOL.


Yes, we will welcome you with open arms of course.


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## Teflon (26 Feb 2009)

> I went U/A(AWOL) for just long enough to be guaranteed a discharge.



Certainly behavior that demonstrates qualities any military would desperately want!


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## HollywoodHitman (26 Feb 2009)

Whether or not he's made of the kind of material we want, he still asked if he should bother. 

Without speaking for the masses here, it would seem that in the opinion of some of the professionals on this site, only some of whom have waded in, I think generally we'd prefer it if you didn't. If you don't have the stomach to fight your way through some adversity and follow the proper channels to pursue an honourable release, there exists a possibility that you'll just create more administrative work which may not correspond directly to the skills you bring to the table. You signed a contract, you didn't like what the terms were and rather than fulfill it or do it properly, you knowingly did whatever you could to get out of it.

However, it's your right to apply; but be prepared not to be accepted based on a poor decision you made in your past. 

I'd wish you luck, but I'm hoping we might not get to fight side by each anytime soon.

HH.


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## len173 (26 Feb 2009)

I would suggest talking to a recruiter. Anybody else is just giving their opinion (as will I). The worst they can do is say no. Shoot a recruiter an email, or go in person and state your case flat out.

But I'm not sure why you would want to join up? What says this doesn't just happen all over again? Unless you were just a kid when this happened, and now are years older, and at a new level of maturity, I don't see how it can even be considered. I won't pretend to know anything about how the U.S. Navy operates, but there must be a way, even if it's not the standard process, to make your issues known without going AWOL. Would you take the chance if you were the CF?


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## lexmark (27 Feb 2009)

> Did you ever think that knowing your job comes with hands-on experience. You dont get that experience by going AWOL.



Not that it makes a bit of difference, I was on the ship for 2 1/2 years, including a 6month deployment through the Med and into the Gulf.  I didn't get to the ship and decide after a couple of months that it wasn't the job for me and leave.  If I didn't have any more knowledge on how to find and repair problems with with my electronic equipment after 2 1/2 years than when I first got there, I wasn't going to get it.

Yeah, in hindsight, I regret it and I should have found another way, but I didn't. 



> Unless you were just a kid when this happened, and now are years older, and at a new level of maturity



I was 26 and single when I left, I'm 32 and married with kids now, so yeah I probably am more mature. I was also in the army reserves for a few years before the navy and had no problems whatsoever with that. I like the military and everything about it, I just happened to pick a job that I really knew nothing about and if I had thought about it, knew I probably wasn't really capable of doing.

I would really like to be back in the military which is why I asked my question in the first place. But I have the experience and sense, now, to know what jobs I just don't have the aptitude for. 

Anyway, I knew what I was in for when I posted but I don't regret posting and I appreciate the honesty.


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## SoldierInTheMaking (27 Feb 2009)

Like len173 said, If you really want a part in the military, I would go and talk to a recruiter and discuss your situation and see what he has to say, because you will get a better answer from the recruiter than anyone else here on this website. Good luck with everything and hope things work out.


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## ex_coelis (27 Feb 2009)

lexmark

If you believe that you have changed and that you can make amends with us by making satisfactory contributions, you're more than welcome to go to your local CFRC. You must understand, however, that the decision ultimately is theirs.

I must inform you also, that being AWOL in the Canadian Forces can result in reprimand, fine, detention/imprisonment, release under items 1 or 2, and/or combinations of all mentioned.





Everybody makes mistakes.


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## Loachman (27 Feb 2009)

lexmark said:
			
		

> Anyway, I knew what I was in for when I posted but I don't regret posting and I appreciate the honesty.



That statement indicates to me that you have matured considerably and just may deserve a second chance.

We here still cannot answer your question, though.


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## lexmark (28 Feb 2009)

> We here still cannot answer your question, though.



I asked my question a couple of weeks ago on the official site but I haven't received an answer as of yet which is why I posted here in the first place. I figured that someone with recruiting experience might be on a forum like this one.


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## Journeyman (28 Feb 2009)

OK, so _assuming_ that you've matured, seen the light, won't abandon your teammates again, realize the military is now your future, whatever....... why don't you go home and join your own military? 

I figure it must be easier to get a 'pardon' (or whatever's required) for the US military, than it would be to get citizenship in a foreign country


Edit: wording


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## len173 (1 Mar 2009)

> I was 26 and single when I left, I'm 32 and married with kids now, so yeah I probably am more mature. I was also in the army reserves for a few years before the navy and had no problems whatsoever with that. I like the military and everything about it, I just happened to pick a job that I really knew nothing about and if I had thought about it, knew I probably wasn't really capable of doing.
> 
> I would really like to be back in the military which is why I asked my question in the first place. But I have the experience and sense, now, to know what jobs I just don't have the aptitude for.
> 
> Anyway, I knew what I was in for when I posted but I don't regret posting and I appreciate the honesty.



Well, you do sound more mature and more aware of yourself, and what your looking for. Now your job is to convince recruiting. Make the best possible case you can for yourself. I wish you good luck in getting there.


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## chris_log (1 Mar 2009)

lexmark said:
			
		

> I asked my question a couple of weeks ago on the official site but I haven't received an answer as of yet which is why I posted here in the first place. I figured that someone with recruiting experience might be on a forum like this one.



I know I'm dropping in late but I'll echo other poster's comments, give it a shot and apply at your local CFRC. The worst they can say is 'no' and you've really got nothing to loose. 

Don't take the opinions of faceless internet posters on the specifics of your situation (of which they are not even aware) as advice on whether or not you should apply. 

Go in and apply. That's the only way you'll find out for sure.


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## lexmark (2 Mar 2009)

Well, I contacted a reserve unit in my area by email and their recruiter was unable to give me an answer. He said that the forces are accepting permanent residents now but he didn't know about the discharge. I find that a bit odd since he is the unit's recruiter but whatever. He also suggested I contact the CFRC nearest me.

I asked my question again on the official site so I will wait a few days to see if they answer me. If not, I will contact the local CFRC directly.


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## Occam (2 Mar 2009)

Be aware that the recruiter for a reserve unit would be used to having 99% of his/her applicants as Canadian citizens.  Add in the mix that you have foreign service, and a non-typical discharge from that service, and you certainly put yourself into an exclusive group of people.  It's not unusual that a reserve unit recruiter wouldn't have come across these particular circumstances before.


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## George Wallace (2 Mar 2009)

Nor will all Reserve Recruiters have had any training for the position that they may be filling.  That and the fact that this is a recent development that all may not be very familiar with.


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## Journeyman (2 Mar 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> It's not unusual that a reserve unit recruiter wouldn't have come across these particular circumstances before.


Oh, go on. I'm sure that recruiters, RegF and Res, are constantly scrambling around trying to sign up people who've abandoned their shipmates and been kicked out of foreign militaries.  :

I think the thread's title should be "Should WE even bother?" 

And my less-than-humble opinion is a resounding fucking *NO! **


* Mind you, that opinion has been formed by several decades in military units where I could depend upon the person to my left and right. If someone wants to leap up and say "oh, it's OK, we don't mind people with a track record of dishonourable sorry, 'less than honourable' service," then by all means, take the POS. 
Again, just my opinion; I haven't spent much time on second-string teams.


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## lexmark (2 Mar 2009)

> If someone wants to leap up and say "oh, it's OK, we don't mind people with a track record of dishonourable sorry, 'less than honourable' service," then by all means, take the POS



I said I knew what I was in for when I posted. I admitted my mistake. And everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, "POS" is making it personal and you don't know me, just what I posted. You have no idea of what kind of sailor I was or what I did while in the navy. And yeah, what I did was pretty bad but you weren't in my shoes and are in no position to call me a "POS"

You know it and everyone that has every been in the military knows it, there are many, many more POS's still serving that noone would miss if they went awol. I served with them and I'm sure you did to. So ask yourself, can you really depend on the people around you?


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## Kat Stevens (2 Mar 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Oh, go on. I'm sure that recruiters, RegF and Res, are constantly scrambling around trying to sign up people who've abandoned their shipmates and been kicked out of foreign militaries.  :
> 
> I think the thread's title should be "Should WE even bother?"
> 
> ...



Quit beating around the bush and tell us what you _really_ think, JM.


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## Journeyman (2 Mar 2009)

> ...can you really depend on the people around you?


Yes


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## HItorMiss (2 Mar 2009)

Damn right he can!

JM and I have moved in some of the same circles (mind you at different times for some of them) and for a fact he could/can/does and will 100% put his trust in those people to his left and right.

You however have a proves track record of not being trustworthy look yourself in the mirror and ask if your former shipmates trusted you....


I and JM wont have to worry about it though as you wont EVER be in my or JM's circle


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2009)

...............and that's a wrap. We'll cut it off here before the six inch rulers come out.

Milnet.ca Staff


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