# Sig Op QL5



## Fader

Well, I‘m nearing the end of my summer here at CFSCE, and I‘ve learnt a lot of stuff, but as part of my training, as well as part of just being here.  For aspiring sig ops, or to piss of the people in the combat arms at how much of a diamond course I‘ve gotten, here‘s the 411:

In week 1 we started off learning the history of the C&E branch of the CF, as well as voice and data encryption units used for IRIS and HARRIS radio sets.

In week 2 we did preperation for our tactical field exercise, where we practiced being det commanders.

In week 3 we had a 5 day tac rad exercise much in theme of week 2.

In week 4 we had an introduction to network administration using windows 2000.

In week 5 we learnt CMS as well as had a tour of JSR

In week 6 we had lessons on the QRT, INMARSAT, and the RF5022 HF radio used in the LCT;

Next week we have our strategic exercise using the LCT‘s.

--

That‘s it for training, but some other lessons, I learnt about:

MALE;  I invented this phrase when talking to my buddies from Calgary.  Minimum Acceptable Level of Effort.  That being, doing the job to the point that nobody tells you to do any work.  I learnt it here on these forums and I preached about it to every student I came into contact with.  Unfortunatly, nobody on my course accepted it, but EVERYONE on the other QL5 course says and knows what it is.  It‘s pretty much thier course motto (except that it‘s un-sharp)

Getting of the base, away from the uniform is the best way to keep your sanity is to just get away and forget that your a soldier.  When I went to Toronto, the only thing that reminded me of the fact that I was in the military was my ranger blanket and my train ticked home.  As it turned out, I traded with my cousins: my blanket for some clothes

Alcohol.  I‘ve drunk before, but not nearly as much as I have here.  I think being in the military has turned me into a blatent alcoholic.  Once again, being combined with MALE, I‘ve also learnt how to time my drinking just right so I don‘t get in trouble for it, but still, whereas back home, I‘d go through a 26 of rum in a few months, I‘ve gone through a 26 of rum, shnapps or vodka every week here.

Having fun.  A few days ago, my friends from Calgary and I had "Ugly Shirt Night" wherby we wore our UGLIEST most RETARDED outfit we could think up.  Two guys wore really ugly Hawain shirts, one guy wore this blue and pink cowboy shirt with a pink bandana tied around his neck, and I wore a flamingly homo... well... a really loud pink, orange, and green collard shirt with a pink girls "Hello Kitty" shirt underneath (the shirt was unbuttoned for all to see).  I swear I was just about to roll over on the ground when I walked into the mess and EVERYONE turned and stared at us.  As it turned out, I wore the same girls "Hello Kitty" shirt for PT the previous morning, when I was really, really hungover (soccer).  I remember running at some guy scraming out "MEOW!" 

Not taking things seriously.  This isn‘t so much fun, but if one of my instructors yells at me, telling me to do something, I don‘t care.  If I agree with what they‘re saying, I‘ll correct it, if not, I just brush it right off.  I find it very difficult to take anyone or anything seriously more than the bare minimum respect of the rank structure or common sense agreement on the issue at hand.

A whole lot more... I couldn‘t begin to name off some of the stuff I‘ve learnt from this experience.  Obviously, I learnt the most when I wasn‘t in green, but still, I learnt a bit even then.

When I get home, for sure I‘ll discuss them.  I‘m just using this as the skeleton for when I get back.

Peace^^


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## Wingman

To paraphrase ... you learnt nothing "in green" and everyhting from a 26 and wearing a goofy shirt one night.  

Have you thought of a new vocation?


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## Danjanou

Was it just me, or did it seem awful quiet around here for the past few weeks? Ah well all good things must come to an end. Look on the bright side he didn‘t call his combat uniform "Republican Guards" this time.


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## Redneck052

Lui,

People like you are the cause of the never stable drinking policy at CFSCE.

Need we remind you why you are there at CFSCE?

Then people wonder why the Reserve courses are allowed to drink one summer and not the next.  The reason...people like you Lui.  

Have you ever heard of the pharse...."What happens away from home, stays away", or "What happens here, stays here".

Well done.....  :akimbo:


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## Mike Bobbitt

Before this turns into another runaway, let‘s remember Lui‘s penchant for getting us (including myself) drawn into useless debate.


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## OLD SCHOOL

Not to be drawn in of course as this may be the only attention this fellow gets in life but he reminds me of summers in Pet. when the good old CDO would play enemy for the reserve units. This was not sought after duty mind you but little pi** ants like him were the first to break down and cry for mother so a little fun could be had.
I thank god that the Sigs we had were professional as your life depended on them paying attention on course.
Sonny boy, you need to be selling cell phones in civie land not working in green.


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## radop211tc

C‘mon guys, he might be only off by one number in a ArtyStrike grid reference.
hehehe

Tc...
VVV


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## newfiemafia

Lui,

After reading your comments.  I think that you are a disgrace.  If you are in the Reserves to pay for your University that‘s fine. Remember that you are still a Canadian Soldier and you should wear the uniform with pride.  Obviously, by your comments earlier it seems that you have no pride and understanding of what it means to wear the military uniform and should not be a representative of CFSCE or in that matter the Canadian Forces period.  I only wish that I could have you as a student on one of my courses to teach you some military bearing, discipline and respect.


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## McInnes

before Lui left, many tried to change his ways...obviously it didnt work, so i very much doubt that further "chastisement" will do anything. Each to his own i suppose. there‘s a reason why the pres has this rep.


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## Fader

test

EDIT:

Well, I remembered my password.

Anyways, I really don‘t want to get into specifics again, as one of you mentioned, all that will come of it is me stirring up the hornets nest again. BUT...

...What I will say is, I havn‘t abused any of the rules and privlages I‘ve gotten.  I‘ve drunk a whole lot more in the last 7 weeks that I would have at home, but by no means have I done it in a tasteless, unprofessional way.  Likewise with my Ugly Shirt night.  I made **** sure days before I walked into the mess that my outfit didn‘t violate any of the mess rules.

Whatsmore, to me MALE, is a good thing.  I take it as something that promotes efficiency and compitance on the job.  To me, MALE means doing the job completly, safely, and quickly.  It means when the jobs done, the jobs done, and it‘s time to party.

Everything is MALE, including my attitude about rank.  Believe me, I know how rank works.  I know Corporal is below anything leafed, striped, or crowned (if that makes any sense) and as such, a Corporal is a subordinate to any of those aforementioned.  

However, I think just as anybody here does.  If a Master Corporal corrects me on inspection for having a drawer that looks like a grenade went off in it, (and it actually looked like it did),  afterwards, I‘d slap myself on the head for being such an idiot and fix it.  If the same Master Corporal tells me to do something I know to be completly unreasonable and unfeasable, I‘ll either not do it, or do it to the extent I know is possible, no more.  Some people take what they say WAY to personally and way to close to heart.  To some people, it‘s the end of the world having a bad inspection, or falling out of a death run for PT.  I know this, since that used to be the case for me.  I know from having gone on this course, that it doesn‘t have to be that way.

I guess these are just the complaints that everyone has after going on course;  obviously there‘s more.  Truthfully though, this course has been the best course I‘ve done in the past three summers (the sum of my short, uninteresting, military career).  However, so much of what has transpired here over the last 7 weeks is so unjust and so wrong that I feel it criminal to leave it unsaid.  True, the CSD, Privacy act, and all other rule books I fall under prevent me from saying a lot of stuff, but I know when it comes to the social dynamics between instructors and students, it‘s fair game.  What makes it worse, though, is after this summer, I realize that all the injustices and wrongs are always present and there‘s nothing that I as an individual soldier can do about it.

Another big thing I realized from going on this course is that my future lies as being a professinal, civilian Engineer.  The military will always have a sacred little nook in my heart as it has given me a great deal.  However, engineers exist to solve problems in society.  Being in an problem filled environment and having little to no power to change it feels very wrong to me.  So I guess that‘s why I bitch a bit more than the average reserve soldier.

Anyways, I‘ve drawn this out long enough, and this is costing me time I could be playing Warcraft.

I hope everyone (EVERYONE) reading this gets my point.  You‘d think someone in a communications trade in the military would be able to effectivly communicate his thoughts with others; but again, I tell everyone I run into I‘m an incompitant bag of crap (with a "sh" in front) so who knows?


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## Fader

Well, looks like I got mine in the end.  To tell you the truth, I‘m glad I did.  The hammer fell, and boy was it a big one.  I think it went pretty high up too.  I‘m pretty sure anyone whose ever had to do the hatless dance into the SSM‘s office probably knows what I‘m talking about.

I‘m actually glad it happened.  After all, it‘s only in times of strife like this that we are most alive.  Whatsmore, it grieves me to no end that, throughout the summer good, decent soldiers got punished over issues of bad timing rather than bad character.  It‘s made worse by the fact that this summer, I chose to be a bad, substandard soldier and as a matter of luck, I never got punished for anything.  Essentially, I got what I deserved.

Not that it matters now that it‘s all said and done and I‘ve taken some of my licks (I fear there may be more) I feel quite content that the system does work and the dissenters and the bag of hammers get theres in the end.

Truthfully, I‘m not an alcoholic.  I drink, but I don‘t drink in excess and never to the point that I‘m unable to perform at a level I deem acceptable.  

I care.  I know I‘ve preached and practiced MALE all this summer, but really, I don‘t believe in it.  It‘s bs both civvy side and military side.  Even though I got away with being a minimalist, apathetic snake for so long, in the end, it doesn‘t pay off.  So, anyone thinking of entering the sig op trade, or any other trade, or any other path in life; never give the minimum acceptable level.  It‘s a harsh lesson I learnt in the past few days that it‘s just not worth it in the end.  Strive to be all that you can be, not all of what someone else wants you to be.  

I love the military.  I love putting on the uniform and existing as a soldier.  I like balance in life, so I equally love taking off the uniform and existing as a civilian (though it was made quite clear to me that so long as there‘s the prospect for me to put it back on again, I‘m not ever completly a civilian).  There are aspects of the military that I rather don‘t like, problems and inefficiencies that I think shouldn‘t exist; but really, as a soldier and an engineer, I should have realized that the only way I can change them is to actually exist within the system and make contributions to it, rather than criticisms.

Last, hopefully I learnt a lesson I‘ve not learnt after making the same mistake again and again.  As the cliche says, don‘t put my foot in my mouth.  Think before I say/write stuff.  I guess that coincides with actually caring about what I say and do, so I guess that‘s quite redundant to say.

Ah well, I go home tommorow.


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## OLD SCHOOL

stick to paintball.


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## Deleted member 585

Can I  _not_ exclude his posts from my field of vision?

  :gunner:


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## McInnes

well lui, good for you i guess, if you actually do practice "being all that you can be" in life.


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## sinblox

Lui, you got RTU‘d? What happened?


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## newfiemafia

I have to agree with what "OLD SCHOOL" commented.  Stick to paint ball.  :fifty:    :fifty:    :fifty:


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## Jarnhamar

"Whatsmore, it grieves me to no end that, throughout the summer good, decent soldiers got punished over issues of bad timing rather than bad character" Amen to that. Imagine how many people would be forced to clean up with act if getting your pee pee slapped for being a bad character happened more often?

I see where Lui is comming from with taking stupid orders. I can‘t count how many times i‘ve been told to put a square through a circle sized hole.

I‘m win Sinblox, what did you do Lui? Get hammered and fall down the stairs. Public drukenness. Someone found your diary and didn‘t like how you painted their charcter heh For a signals guy to get hit by such a heavy hammer you must have been uber naughty.


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## OLD SCHOOL

Squares are designed to fit through a circle sized hole. This is the Army. If it won‘t go through, get a bigger hammer.
Order=carry it out and repeat as necessary.
Those that act without wondering why will go far.
If an order hits you in the mind then you fail before you even act.
Yes there are stupid orders and ones that can even needlessly put your life in danger but an order is an order. Be it on time for eats or on time for the C-6 overwatch in a combat zone, on time is on time. 
This kid questions his training and his instructors and would be gone from any of my courses in a world of hurt. This of course in the prevention of any hurt that he would cause others by his lack of comittment.
What was the comment? He is only off by one gridsquare? LOL except that I have seen it done in live fire.
Pay attention and do as you are told you sorry little whining $&!%.


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## Jarnhamar

I was expecting that force the square to fit response   

I understand the requirement to react to orders without thinking about it.  I believe there is also times (Which you as a warrant im sure have had) where you recieve an order and you  change it around a little, improve it or just do something a little different. You still carry out the order and get the job done but you may have known a way to do it faster, safer or more productivly. All depends on the case. 

Humility and somberness just eminates off Lui‘s post, sounds very defeated.


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## OLD SCHOOL

Exactly. Only as you gain rank. Comments made for QL3 level.


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## Veteran`s son

What does RTU mean?


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## nULL

Returned to Unit would be my guess


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## Deleted member 585

Re: RTU

Some still call it, "Returned To Mama".  Puts an appropriate tone on "Returned To Unit" now doesn‘t it?

Cheers.

"Through."


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## PTE Gruending

Other than medical RTU‘s, what possible ways are their to be sent back, and how does your unit deal with you?


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## Jarnhamar

I‘d say training failture, compassionate, volintary.

Depends why you got RTU‘d. If you got hurt or there was a family problem i think your unit has to give you a job for the remainder of your contract.


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## Fader

I didn‘t get RTU‘d.  I think I got blacklisted from CFSCE forever.  This summer, I got into a lot of crap for what I wrote here, but for nothing else.  

Other than that, I didn‘t do anything that broke the rules.  None of my actions ever resulted in a blade towards anyone.  I did my fair share, no more, no less; just as I said I would.  True enough, I didn‘t do what a lot of people do and go above and beyond, but I did what I was supposed to.


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## Veteran`s son

Lui

Does that mean that you have to change to a different trade in the Reserves?


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## Jarnhamar

Ouch. Thats brutal man. Looks like someone sunk your battleship.


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## Spr.Earl

Lui after reading your post‘s I suggest you quit.

Thud F‘s like you don‘t last long and if they do they end up getting other‘s hurt or degarding the Force‘s and those of us who give 110% and know and comprehend what it take‘s to wear our Uniform.

Your lucky this is not the Force‘s of the mid 70‘s early 80‘s.

I was taught by Sapper‘s who served in Korea and were hard as nail‘s but fare as long as you kept your mouth shut and learnt.

But you,the cornucopia of knowledge of all thing‘s Military have not learnt and deserve what you get.

Enough said.


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## Willis052

I would like to start off by sending a congratulations out to Lui. For what? being one of the few members of the herd to figure out going above and beyond, simply ain‘t worth it.

I believe Lui has probably caught some unnecessary, and certainly unjustified grief here.
First off, the reason for the always unstable drinking policy at CFSCE has more to do with unstable commandants, and paranoid SSM‘s than it does with a bad T-Shirt and the occasional hangover. If Lui, at his own admission drank a 26/week on course I would be confident that the  senior staff members  would not see fit to quash the drinking. Taking the drinking privliges from students at CFSCE is now, has been in the past, and will remain to be in the future, nothing more than the carrot on the stick. 

However more disturbing are the comments made by the self proclaimed Army Godfather. What makes Lui such a disgrace? That he spoke out against the Comm Reserve. That‘s not out of line. It‘s more common to here about how pathetic and sad the state of affairs are, rather than how great the situation is. Or is it that he spoke out against CFSCE? CFSCE is a joke. Everybody knows it. I don‘t know a reservist who walk‘s away going, " Wow, after that I am a better soldier, and a better citizen, I can now represent my uniform better." Give me a break. There are only three thing you learn at CFSCE. Staff administers the infamous CFSCE C*^K, the administrators are unstable and generally have been promoted to their level of incompetence, and course mates are your brothers (eh hem, and sisters). Him realizing that the tough guy fassads portrayed by instructors are nothing more than Real TV crossed with an entertaining dinner theater. That is to say that you take nothing away from it. Something for you to remember is that having pride in your uniform and trade is far different than having respect for people above you. Lui is correct, the military only demands a respect for the rank, which means I will say yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir. Whether I think the individual giving the order deserves respect is a matter of my own opinion and has nothing to do with whether or not I have pride in my uniform. Most of all I find upsetting, but yet in the same light humorous, are the hopes and wishes of one angry Sgt. who longs to go back to the days of in the field executions, and corporal punishment. Just the fact that you are so intelectually myopic is disturbing. What he just said was that all the yelling and screaming in the world will not win your hearts and minds campaign. A 2 hour run that makes me vomit does not make me respect you. You threatening to shove a boot up my but does not make me have pride in my uniform, and having half a brain to see that the only good reason to join the CF is to pay for your schooling, makes him a visionary, not a disgrace.

You can not torture a man who has no hope.


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## muskrat89

GK - why don‘t you tell us how you really feel?

Lui - You think you got blacklisted? What the heck does that mean? Some unofficial barring from future attendance, via a hush-hush conversation in the Officers‘ Mess?

As my father, the old fashioned , not GK-effective, RSM would say - "If you‘re looking for sympathy, its in the dictionary, between sh*t and syphilis" LOL  Your comments on this board, I feel, were purposely laced with "in your face" cockiness - comments that you knew would push the buttons of some of the members. Even before you left, you were often contemptuous of al things military. Play with fire, you‘re gonna get burnt...


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## Spr.Earl

Well GK I see you have 5 month‘s more in than Lui.
Who has 2yrs in.

Even though we Engineer‘s are not as hard Corp as the Infantry,even we have the B.S. on course and put up with it,but we all still have to follow doctrin.

It‘s the way of the beast,if you don‘t like it leave.It‘s there to teach you tolerance,if you can‘t take it on course then what would you be like in combat?

0 this E15 over,no answer,Lui don‘t agree with the radio procedure?,Me and my section are killed by friendly fire.Er what then?

Your post does not wash.


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## Willis052

Muskrat, just to set a couple of things straight. I haven‘t left yet. I am contemptuous of all things beauracratic. I am contemptuous of people who hide behind their rank. And finally I am contemptuous of the fact that accountability works only one way. However the military could quickly be characterized by these attributes.

As for the comment made by Lui about being blacklisted from CFSCE being a smoke filled back room conversation between pinky and the brain does not do justice the deceit portrayed by the afforementioned members. The Comm Reserve being a fairly small organization allows for what one would call an old boys club to materialize. With the constant re-hiring of the same members year after year it would certainly allow for a poisoned atmosphere upon Lui‘s return to CFSCE. The SSM has not changed over in many years, and instructors that were there before are only more likely to be promoted and given positions allowing for more irresponsible abuses of authority. So certainly there may not be a "blacklist" but I think we are all intelligent enough to know that the military grapevine is one that grows quickly, and out of control. Before ya know it Lui will be accused of the Kennedy assasination. Likely with the way CFSCE works they will try him and put him to death before attempting to assemble some evidence. However in some cases, that I know of, the blacklist is a memo, e-mail, or simply a verbal notification that you are no longer allowed to continue training at CFSCE. Perhaps one should be on the "blacklist" before pretending to know what it is.


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## muskrat89

That‘s pretty funny - you haven‘t earned the right to preach to me, little boy....

If you detest it, get out - you‘re not impressing anybody here


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## Willis052

It is not the military I detest, it is exactly the attitude portrayed by you. "you haven‘t earned the right to preach to me little boy..." Go ahead and hide behind your age and, apparently experience. You eminate all that is military, people like you answer the question "why is the sky blue?" by saying "because I said so". Congratulations I am sure you won soldier of the year frequently. Hats off.


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## Spr.Earl

Muskrat it‘s no use arguing with Sprog‘s here the only way is face to face.

Lui and et al,if you feel you have not been treated fairly on course there are route‘s you can take.
I have done it even though I didn‘t win,the next year there were change‘s.

Stop whinning and soldier on!


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## PTE Gruending

Lui,
So what happened? You posted to this forum on base, and somewhere there read what you had to say? Which post was it?

So what sort of disciplinary action has been taken against you?


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## OLD SCHOOL

Bunch ‘o‘ wankers.
I am confident that these pukes are not the norm and I can rest easy knowing that they weed themselves out.
Yeah, you pukes are the salvation for the reserves as you have it all figured out.
Good luck anywhere with your skillsets.
The boys I worked with were all 5 by 5 and you fellows ain‘t it.


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## Sarge

G.K.
Canada is a democratic country without forced military service. If you‘re in the military and don‘t like it, or you don‘t like taking orders, or don‘t like giving a 100% effort - noone‘s stopping you from getting the f*** out. Take off the uniform that some of us take pride in, and trade it in for a McDonald‘s uniform.  I‘m sure you‘re idealistic and superior intelligent comments would be greatly appreciated while putting someones Bic Mac together.
As for you Lui, and those like you. If you were ever to try that sh** in a civilian corportation, you‘re ***  would be on the street so fast. I think you‘ll find that, even though you received some (well-deserved) punishment, the military is very forgiving. If it weren‘t, you wouldn‘t have a uniform to disgrace anymore.
And, for those of you constantly criticize military leadership - it‘s pretty easy to criticize something you don‘t have the balls to do yourself.


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## newfiemafia

GK,
By the sounds of your comments, aybe ou and Lui should name yourselves Pinky and the Brain.  The Comm Reserve staff conduct themselves in a professional manner.  Maybe your military conduct is on par with Cpl Lui‘s.  Looking at your profile, it states that you have been in the reserves for 2 and a half years. Why are you still a PTE?  You sound disgruntled.  Were you ever RTU‘ed?  Are you even qualified 052?  The SSM usually changes every few years.  Get some TI before making judgements of ranks beyond your own.  You are confused between a contempt for bureaucracy and the disrespect of the military rank structure.


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## Dune_Op

I know what you‘re going through...  The majority of people on course feel the same way.  It all depends on how bad you want it.  It‘s not the first time someone has been blacklisted.  I myself have had the pleasure.  The only thing that keeps me going is although I may not agree with the military I do have a passion to serve my country, and if thats what they ask of me to put up with then thats what I must do.  I know there is a lot of grade 2 level teaching and treatment of people but look at it this way.  When you‘re posted you won‘t have to deal with it anymore.  You‘ll be a person again.  You‘ll foget about CFSCE fast enough.  As for VR.  Goodluck.  LOL.. Many people have tried on my course when they found out it was going to be 6 months of basic training again but none have succeded.  So just roll with the punches and know that you‘re not alone.  Everyone on your course should be helping you deal with it.


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## Jarnhamar

.>>d


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## Willis052

Sarge,
I can only assume that some high school kid at Mcdonalds upset you by speaking above your own admitted intellectual level. And FYI, I run, and administer my own company, and do have individuals working for me. Therefore I feel  qualified to criticize leadership. On the battlefield or in the business place, the principals are the same. However, all I can reccomend for you to make up for your intellectual shortcomings is a good discussion on perhaps Plato or Aristotle. You can do this once you retire and find that your skillsets are likely only enough to get you that coveted position assembling Big Mac‘s. Get Bent.

Mr. Seumas Soprano,
The professionalism that you are speaking of, would that be gangbangs in students rooms? sounds proffesional, eh. Or would it be an emotional breakdown, with an instructor crying in front of the troops? Does that make you wanna jump out of the trenches? Or is it senior staff fornicating with students that sets the standard for proffesionalism. The list goes on and on. You can‘t tell me about how  professional the staff are, I know otherwise. Fortunately that DOES NOT mean all staff. I believe however I may have been a bit harsh on my initial posting and my point has likely been lost since. I hold the utmost respect for the military rank structure, I cannot speak enough of how important I believe military bearing to be. That is not an issue. The issue at hand is the individuals put in to these positions of authority. So often ego‘s get involved and decisions are made irresponsibly. When I say ego‘s I can use Lui‘s case specifically. Somebody, somewhere saw Lui‘s comments on this board. Someone somewhere got offended. What Lui did is not wrong. Yet because someone didn‘t like what he had to say the hammer came down on him. Does it seem right that censorship can hinge on what some officer‘s opinion is. Do these individuals believe they are important enough to stand in the way of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. They are your rights and mine and these individuals are a danger to you and me. The last time the CF tried to cover something up and take it away from the public eye the Airborne ended up disbanded. Likely because of the same proffessional conduct you speak of. Rank structure is the foundation for the military. But remember, Stalin and Hitler were both the ultimate commanders of their armies, does that mean they were proper? One must remember wearing a rank does not make you right it just means you have a bigger stick.

Perhaps if one of these so-called leaders had taken a look at why Lui‘s attitude was so poor they probably would have discovered that it is not because he is sub-par, lacking, or weak. They may have realized that he was just one of the few trying to make it better for everyone as a soldier. Even the highly sensitive higher ups that saw his comments as a national security breach; or something like that. I can vouch for the fact that he is a decent soldier, and a better citizen. People forget that attitude is a reflection of leadership. 

A thought to remember: Canadian Soldiers subject themselves to tasks higher than most any individuals in society. We willingly give up some of the rights that our fellow citzens enjoy. Should we then not be the first amongst equals when it comes to the few rights and freedoms we have left?


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## hoganshero

I have to admit I can see some valid points to both sides of this argument. I agree with there being an old boys club in the reserves. Nothing like seeing the COs son get the soldier of the year award and being forced to parade to see it presented to him by his own father. As regards making things better for your fellow soldier; there are channels for this. I don‘t agree with other posters dressing up what Lui was doing as some type of magnanimous act of self sacrifice. He was dogging it and dogging it hard. he got what he deserved.


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## Gryphon

You know, we all have to try to remember just what the **** we signed on the line for... Was it for the easy money? (If it is, thne buddy, you‘re in the wrong profession, and get the ****  out!) is it for the love of the country? Is it to be able to have the HONOUR of serving your country, because as it was already mentioned, it isn‘t a duty here in canada, it‘s a honour. Listen, I just got back from CFSCE. I was on my threes, and sure, CFSCE does deserve the nickname "Canadian Forces School for Cock Enthusiasts" but you learn how to play the game. My MCpl used to piss us off. His favorite line was "you might learn to play the game, but i reserve the right to change the rules at any time, and I also reserve the right not to tell you about the changes in the rules" yes, it ticked us off during inspection, but you know what? these people aren‘t out to get you, they‘re only doing their job, and you know, when you reach their level of experience, and knowledge, then you‘ll have some whinny pte grumbling about his instructors and saying how stuck up they are.

I do admit that there are some people who are out on a powertrip, and those people need to be stopped, but there are also those NCMs that just galavant the forces breaking every rule they can, getting their whole course into ****, because they have no "Espirt de corps" and only give a rat‘s ***  about number one. These are just some bad apples. You don‘t burn down the whole orchard because you have one or 2 bad apples, neither do you burn the whole orchard down because of some bad seedlings. No, you rip them out, and plant better and stronger ones in their place.

Anyways... Just remember why your in this man‘s army. Is it for your glory? Or for the glory of this beautiful country of ours?


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## PTE Gruending

Communication Reserve..... hard courses.... *cough* isnt that an oxymoron? ;-)

Just kidding folks, I really do not know enough about the Army to know; but it seems like all of you siggies are making out Comm to be a really hard trade - full of cock and the like. Is it really compared to the combat arms and such?


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## hoganshero

I don‘t think that what is being complained about is the difficulty of the course. What happens at CFSCE, and what it is famous for, is the school‘s insane attention to minutae. If CFSCE could, they would attempt to repeal the laws of physics for the sake of it. At least in some courses what you are asked to do can in fact be done. Many of CFSCE requests cannot. IE not to speak to any member in uniform outside of your course or course staff. Try getting a coffee from the CFSCE canteen without speaking to the guy behind the counter. This was the insane rule during my course as we were allowed to drink at the time. This meant I couldn‘t even phone my parents to let them know I hadn‘t accidently been killed; had my father answered the phone I would have been in breach of the rule technically.


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## Jarnhamar

sob my edit went to **** .
Holding someone accountable for something they say on a web site is ****. 
Just like the inner circle clubs that decide who gets what course and tasking are.
Commenting on why someone is a private with 2 and a half years in is pretty weak too. I was one for almost 4. 
Attacking someone on a personal level is the actions of someone with out anything intelligent to say.
I wonder what the army would be like now if the person who piped up about the clothe the soldier program or the fact that soldiers need more money because they were using food stamps kept his mouth shut or were told to shut up and deal with it. I know i like getting paid almost 50% more than what i did for a day in 1996.


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## Willis052

Nobody ever said that Lui was a man of self sacrifice, instead I would see his attitude to be that of self preservation. But the reason Lui has become the poster boy he is for many of the individuals I know, myself included, are these.

 It would be intellectually dishonest to tell yourself that all good soldiers give 110% all the time. That just ain‘t true. The only reason Lui was hung out was because an example needed to be made. It was a quick brutal object lesson the troops could not fail to understand. I believe there object lesson was this. Speak of CFSCE in a negative light, and pay dearly. As for Lui doggin it, eh. If I went to the barracks on any given day I could probably find 2 out of 10 soldiers that don‘t dog it. The other six are trying to survive and do their share, and their share only. This is where Lui falls. The other 2 are generally write offs that can‘t run from the shacks to the Tim Hortons to get their donuts. Make no mistake gentleman Lui is being persecuted because he said something about his attitude on a public site. Not because he was doggin‘ it. By all means had our version of "big brother" persecuted/prosectuted anyone outside of CFSCE for something they said about a military course or anything of the sort the militaries lawyers would have their work cut out for them. But because the military feels that they do not have to be charter compliant, only charter proof, they feel they can abuse their powers, and violate a man‘s right to privacy and stand in the way of free speech. It was those soldiers before us that fought and died to earn us the privilige of having those rights, and at anytime you could be sent to fight for those rights again. Should we not at least be able to exercise our rights. If not than the Canadian Government should re-consider conscription, or perhaps a military state.


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## Veteran`s son

At the time Lui left CFSCE, had he completed his trades training?

If not, is changing his MOC the only way that he can complete his trades training?


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## muskrat89

If Lui has been wronged, he can file a redress. He seemed to think it was great sport earlier, to get on this means and deliberately push people‘s buttons by declaring how slack he was. If he got caught - boo hoo hoo   :crybaby:    Maybe you need to go back and read some of his earlier posts GK. Some of the Board members even tried to help him, and not by flaming him, either. 

"Big Brother"???  Now that‘s really funny. This is a public forum, for pete‘s sake. If I‘m in the barracks doing my best impersonation of the RSM, and he walks in and hears me - too bad for me. Some of you guys are really something - where does it stop?  "The Man" makes us cut our hair too short - there‘s no practical purpose to that - it violates my Constitutional Rights" There are so many safety nets and policies, and checks/balances in place now, you‘ve already driven a portion of the old guys out of the Army - any gross abuses are rare, I would imagine. The Military is a closed society, which you asked to enter - if you don‘t like it, turn your kit in. If I ask to join the Masons, and don‘t like what I see, I get out.

Back room decisions? Of course - much of the business of the Regiment is conducted in the Mess. That‘s not secret. Officers and Snr NCOs are too busy running the Regiment to stop and have board meetings (or they should be). A lot of miscellaneous business is settled at the Mess - not just who "they‘re going to pick on" next..


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## Fader

It‘s me. I just changed my displayed name to something more appropriate.  After all, I think the biggest reason I got in trouble was because I put my name down.  That was really dumb, and I know it.  Guess that‘s youthful stupidity and idealism at work.

Anywho, I didn‘t mean I was blacklisted from CFSCE as an official thing.  Just the way things ended up my last couple of days there, it was quite clear to me that CFSCE didn‘t want me back.  That‘s all good, though, considering I don‘t ever want to return to CFSCE either.  I really didn‘t want to come back this year after the gong show last year, which I attribute much of my bitterness too.     I wanted to see Kingston, but definitely not CFSCE.

GK, with many things you hit the nail right on the head in your description of me and what I think.  You, more eloquently, expressed what I failed to.

Right now, though, I just want to say screw it and let it be.  I guess that‘s somewhat hard, considering how I opened up pandora‘s box.  So I‘ll just try not to aggrevate the situation by saying anything too stupid about CFSCE or the CF.

I thought it funny how most veteran instructors here said they could weed me out on course for being the soldier I am.  While I know my course members could tell very easily, I know the instructors never could.  That is, until the end.  It came as a real shock to my instructors that I would do what I did.  I regret having grieved them, since they rank up there as some of the best instructors I‘ve had on a military course and I respected each of them.  But it‘s a fact, no instructor can inspect thier troops minds, thoughts and opinions if they don‘t let them.

I made a showing as a soldier who was on time,  worked hard and smart, and shut up on the job.  Maybe I‘m wrong, but I‘ve never met any instructor or supervisor who ever asked for more; and if they did, everyone knew that they were the ones being unprofessional.  My staff never did, which is why I respected them all.

That‘s the only thing I think I have left to say on the matter, my instructors rocked.


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## Willis052

I find it utterly hard to believe that you think the grievance process is effective. Now that‘s funny. I happen to have a fairly intimate knowledge of the grievance process. Let me broaden your horizons. The grievance process is something that was put in place to make soldiers feel better about getting f*****. Nothing more, nothing less. Even under the "streamlined" grievance process I know all too well of instances where individuals are going on 1 yr from the date of submission without a ruling. Most individuals I know that have gone through the grievance process find it slow, painful, and the whole situation just causes severe duress as it poisons the working atmosphere. That aside what is our friend here to grieve? Nothing, he got c**k. Administrative actions taken against him? You can‘t grieve a charge. 

You are absoloutely right that this is a public forum. Which means what? It still means that he is getting hammered on because he expressed his opinion. People are caught up in the fact that "he got caught". Caught for what? This is the whole foundation of the argument. He did nothing wrong, and therefore should not ever have to concern himself with being "caught", that‘s garbage. He did not use DND computers, he didn‘t discredit any individuals by name, he didn‘t release protected information. He explained what his attitude was, and complained about how the course was run. Big deal. I apologize for the big brother thing, I assumed a simple comparison would be effective. No such luck. What it means is that somebody wanted to shut him up. They gave it to him good. Do "they" not qualify as a big brother of some description? Somebody is watching and waiting, that‘s undeniable. Otherwise, if there was no big brother our friend shouldn‘t have been touched. Right?

Once and for all lets put the membership issue to rest. The "get out if you don‘t like it" comment is wearing thin. It‘s an assanine comment that holds no weight. Whether I am a soldier or a citizen these injustices are still injustices. Do you think anybody, with the exception of masochists, like getting screwed or ****ed around. It is not about being in or out. It is about right and wrong, black, white, and sometimes grey, moral or immoral. In or out doesn‘t change the fact that our friend was still wronged. You say the military is a closed society. It better not be, as the citizens tax dollars pay soldiers wages, equipment, and for whenever the military feels like taking administrative action against young soldiers for expressing his/her opinions, and attitudes about a specific topic. 
It‘s 2003, do you know where your tax dollars are?

Just to set a couple of things straight. The 1867 Constitution was taken out in 1982 as it was deemed ineffective for the time. It was replaced by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In our friends case it is simple. Under Section 2.(b) of the charter he is guranteed fundamental freedoms. Read it, you may realize after that we can‘t just string ‘em all up right away.

Lastly you say gross abuses are rare. Man, take off the blinders. Just because you don‘t see them does not mean they don‘t happen. Higher ranks are given sweeping powers,the only checks and balances in the military when dealing with NCM‘s is a grievance. By the time a grievance has to go in you have already been screwed. If you think that is a check or a balance you are demented. If these people had a proper check and balance system there would be no grievances, would there.


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## muskrat89

So, if it‘s THAT awful, why are you in? Just for a pay cheque? Maybe you‘re going to write all these wrongs, single-handedly; thats certainly an admirable goal, I suppose. 

I will agree on one thing, the system is not perfect. That is what the Chain of Command is for. Maybe everyone in your Unit, of a higher rank is out to oppress you - I don‘t know. Airing dirty laundry on a public forum (whining) is more effective than the grievance process? Maybe you should mutiny, GK - then cry because the system is unfair, and you are just standing up for your rights. If you feel that strongly, disobey - after all, you‘ve got the Charter of Rights behind you. Instead of biting the hand that feeds you, use your huevos.....stand up to the cruel system. If you believe in what you say, the Charter of Rights will protect you - right? Otherwise, drop the victim act - THAT is what‘s growing thin around here.

There‘s lots of "closed societies" that taxes pay for. Wander down to the local RCMP office, and ask for some inside information. Cops have a thin blue line, firefighters have a thin red line, correctional officers have it too. Are you truly that naive, and idealistic??

Injustices? You poor thing. There‘s injustices everywhere. My employer puts injustices on me. If it‘s not illegal, I‘m S.O.L  Nobody forces me in the door every morning, with a gun to my head. I can leave anytime I‘ve had enough. Nobody ever said life was fair.

For such a fan of free speech, you sure cry alligator tears, when someone‘s opinion is different than yours.


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## radop211tc

I hear McDonalds is hiring all the time for MIT‘s (Manager In Training). It appears there are a few potential candidates, that have the whole system figured out.

Tc...
VVV


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## hoganshero

Actually as you learned during basic, during one of those boring classroom talks, you give up your rights under the 1982 charter of rights and freedoms and agree to be bound by the code of service discipline. Under section 19.14 of the QROs

19.14 â€“ IMPROPER COMMENTS
(1) No officer or non-commissioned member shall make remarks or pass criticism tending to bring a superior into contempt, except as may be necessary for the proper presentation of a grievance under Chapter 7 (Grievances). (15 June 2000)

(2) No officer or non-commissioned member shall do or say anything that:
(a) if seen or heard by any member of the public, might reflect discredit on the Canadian Forces or on any of its members; or
(b) if seen by, heard by or reported to those under him, might discourage them or render them dissatisfied with their condition or the duties on which they are employed.


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## McInnes

darn, beat me to it, i was just going to post that.


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## waterat

I have worked in the offshore diving / construction industry all over the world, for many different companies - and from that and from talking to other people I can say that there is not a place, a country, a company, a workplace etc ad nauseum where people don‘t feel p***d off at some time, or where some injstice does not exist. It is a fact of life, cannot be avoided, accept it, deal with it. This applies to every facet of society, and from my travels, we in Canada should feel very, very fortunate indeed that we live in what is probably the finest nation on the globe. Try a couple months in Nigeria mate, that would open your eyes up a bit. Sort yourself out, and get in the real world.


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## muskrat89

Ahhh - a Bullseye from Hogan‘s Hero, and some voices of reason, from the others. ya big meanies   :evil:


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## Jarnhamar

Civi side you can tell your boss to *uck off and quit on the spot. You‘ll be pressed for cash but thats about it. In the military if you get $hit brought down on you in month 4 of your 3 year contract your in for a crappy few years and you can‘t ‘just get out‘  Even reserve side they can find ways to be jerks.  You don‘t have your balls-hang-out gray PT shorts? Well you haven‘t offically handed in all your kit.

Oh ya, don‘t mention mutiny. APPARENTLY it‘s a big deal to pass around a memo getting people to sign it in order to kick someone out of the mess


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## Spr.Earl

The last word!


" A commander at any level cannot shirk unpleasant decisions, whether he be corporal or general or any rank in between. If he does shirk such decisions, he is unfit to command in battle."
Chris Vokes, My Story, 1985


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## Willis052

A close bullseye for Hogans Hero. But don‘t worry you still have rights.

" A Canadian serving in the armed forces does not give up the rights and obligations of Canadian citizenship. As was affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada in MacKay v. R: " This is a quote directly from the JAG Defence Law Training, CHAPTER 1.

It is also interesting that the Supreme Court of Canada has warned the Canadian Forces, because of cases like MacKay v. R that the CF needs to become Charter Compliant. And they have been accused by same of attempting to Charter Proof themselves rather than respect the rights of the soldiers. Consequently it has been widely speculated that the next time a Charter abuse is cited that the Supreme Court of Canada will in fact re-write several of the CF‘s documents on discipline and law so as they are 100% Charter Compliant. And that all actions associated to discipline or Military Law will be taken out of the CF‘s hands.


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## Fader

Pandora‘s box, eh?

Just FYI, this is where I just bugger off and leave this topic.  

GK, I thank you for your convictions and efforts.  It was good seeing someone else who‘s not afraid to poke at the hornets nest a bit, but I‘ve been stung and chastised enough for me to know it‘s best if I leave it be.


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## Yonessa

[No message]


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## Yonessa

I had the opportunity of taking my course with Fader_1572, and after my completion at CFSCE; I must admit that it was an excellent course. It was not good because of satisfactory course material; it was good because of a successful mix of outstanding instructors and students. Yes, there was BS, and studentâ€™s received crap; nevertheless, until the very end of the course, most students entered the course with the value of wanting to learn, and they received the privilege of instruction. University students pay dearly for that gift. Fader_1572â€™s post on Army.ca rose up a storm in CFSCE, and our course took it hard for his opinion; however, it is just that: his opinion. The military is an organization like many Civilian institutions, whereas it rewards success rather than effort. I personally think that wars are not won simply because people try hard, it is because they try hard to be effective. The attitude of the MALE does not succeed as there is inadequate effort, and although the minimum acceptable level of effort often goes un-noticed; this attitude returns scarce reward. An Entity is the Sum of its Parts, and I think that unless Canada wishes to have a MALE military, the MALE individuals are not useful within the CF.

I remember arguments with Fader_1572 throughout my summer at CFSCE, as we seldom agreed on philosophy, and I worked with him frequently in the field. Fader_1572 is not the useless bag of crap he claims to be. He is as inexperienced as can be expected; however, with the proper instruction and motivation, he is a competent solider. I did well on my course this summer. I did not succeed because I put in the greatest effort; I succeeded because I meshed effort with some common sense. If I was told to put a square in a circular hole I would make several attempts and than I would produce a solution. Canada is not mass-producing robots; it is producing NCMs that can rationalize. I think that the successful military of the future is not one that can puts in the most effort; it is the force that will out-think their opposition. The â€œmost objectsâ€ do not win anymore, the most effective does. It seems that the Canada is making this the central attitude of the CF, and it is not remotely the MALE.

I exercise my freedom to argue with Fader_1572â€™s opinion, and I have read the majority of his posts on army.ca to ensure that my argument is sufficient. I noticed that the majority his replies simply flame â€œhim,â€ rather than argue with â€œhis opinion,â€ and that is a shame. It is disappointing to see that, on army.ca, veterans of Canadaâ€™s military demonstrate little defense to its success. The youth argue with or defend Fader_1572, and the hallmark defense for the old is only: â€œget more T.I.â€ With numerous years within the CF, a reply should be far richer with insight, than my brief experiences. It is about as useful to flame a reservist with two years T.I., as it is to disband a unit after two years, in service. However, this is all only my opinion.

Yonessa


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## chriscalow

wow good show.  I vote for the ruck up or ship out attitude.. at least you can wear the uniform.  Some of us have to wait for that kind of priveledge.


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## Jack Neilson

Well, you certainly come across as very immature.  I hope for the sake of others you never serve with Reg Force in the way of danger or in a situation where you may have to depend on the people you are dissing.  Chances are they‘ll come to your aid anyway.  Regarding the reserves ... as a regular I‘ve served with reserves on peacekeeping missions and generally found them to be well qualified and good soldiers.  Your comments seem to be denigrating to these people, not just to CFSCEE. Another post (not yours) mentioned the disbanding of the Airborne Regiment.  That was a stupid decison made for political purposes and not in the best interests of the Army or the country.  The overwhelming number of men in this Regiment were dedicated soldiers, not sadists and they richly deserve the name "best of the best" (no I never served with them but I certainly respect them).  Why you would even consider remaining in the Reserves given the attitudes you so greatly cherish is a mystery to me.
VVV
Jack Neilson


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## Deleted member 585

Greetings Jack,

Although we haven‘t seen Fader_1572 (a.k.a. CFL_Lui) since 02 September, most of his comments since April ‘03 were responded to with the same sentiment.

We all agreed to refrain from falling for his flame-bait after so many wasted efforts to tune him in.

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers.


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