# King's Corporal



## Bill Smy (24 Sep 2004)

Has anyone accurate information on this rank?

I have been told it was common in the early days of the last century to promote an individual on the basis of his deeds rather than his qualifications.

Any comment?


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## Michael OLeary (24 Sep 2004)

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for, but it may have the same origins:

King's Regulations and Orders for the Army - 1908

from para 297

"A G.O.C.-in-C. may excuse a corporal or bombadier of over 12 years service from attendance at school on condition that he receives no further promotion, and that he is ineligible for special promotion, except under the exigencies of active service or for very gallant conduct."


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## Bill Smy (24 Sep 2004)

Thanks Michael. This might be what I'm looking for. I have also been told that the rank badge had a crown above the chevrons, much like that of a Staff Sergeant.


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## Michael OLeary (24 Sep 2004)

Mike Dorosh might be able to answer the insignia question.

Here's one online reference to the King's Corporal -- http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/history-mid.htm


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## jmacleod (15 Oct 2004)

The Director of the Citadel Fortress Museum Citadel Hill, Halifax NS, one of the finest military Museums
in North America in my opinion, may have some information on the rank of "King's Corporal" which
I am sure existed in the Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR), which had it's Canadian Depot in Halifax
prior to World War II, - now the site of HMCS Stadacona.
The Citadel Fortress Museum, owes much of its quality and restoration to the efforts of the late
Wing Commander Bob Braham DSO,DFC, Royal Air Force, one of the great nightfighter pilots of
the RAF in World War II, an airman of great intellect, and foresight. His battles with Ottawa based
bureaucrats during his tenure as Director of the Museum are legendary, and the results of his tenure
are there for all Canadians to share. The late Prime Minister John Difenbaker was committed to the
preservation of Canada's military history, and was the force behind the multi-million dollar restoration
of the French North American Fortress, "Louisbourg", Nova Scotia, as well as the creation of CFB
Gagetown New Brunswick. MacLeod


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## Steel Badger (14 Dec 2004)

I am wondering if the King's Corporal you speak of is similar to the Queen's Corporal which preceeded teh Appointement of MCPL.
I have a combat QCPL rnk kicking around some where. the ones with the Leaf placed in the top chevron.


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## Michael OLeary (14 Dec 2004)

I believe the MCpl rank badge with the broken upper chevron was a trial version of the MCpl rank badge, but was shortlived and replaced by the one we have. 

(Though I could be wrong, and then Mike D. has the correct explanation below.)


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## Steel Badger (14 Dec 2004)

Thx Mike

Do you know aof anywhere I can drag up more info on the QCPL ?


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Dec 2004)

Michael OLeary said:
			
		

> I believe the MCpl rank badge with the broken upper chevron was a trial version of the MCpl rank badge, but was shortlived and replaced by the one we have.



I was under the impression the split upper bar chevron badge was actually the badge for Corporal, with a Master Corporal badge being the same as the one we have now. It was too easy to confuse the two, however, and the split upper bar badge for corporal was deleted in favour of a bare 2-bar chevron.


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## George Wallace (14 Dec 2004)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> I am wondering if the King's Corporal you speak of is similar to the Queen's Corporal which preceeded teh Appointement of MCPL.
> I have a combat QCPL rnk kicking around some where. the ones with the Leaf placed in the top chevron.



The King's Cpl/Queen's Cpl has nothing at all to do with the Appointment of MCpl or any history in anyway predating the Appointment of MCpl.   Forget MCpl rank altogether when thinking of a King's or Queen's Cpl.

I know a Queen's Cpl.   He was presented his rank by the Queen herself.   In that alone, tradition more or less made him 'untouchable'.   It is said that the only person who could take that rank away, once awarded, would be HM himself/herself.   The Queen's Cpl I know of never rose above the rank of Cpl for his 20 plus years of service.   This 'appointment'   has nothing to do with merit, but is simply a fact that the promotion to that rank was done by the Sovereign in person, thus giving that Cpl a special status.

GW


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## Jungle (14 Dec 2004)

George, was this a CDN or British Soldier ??


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## Shec (14 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I was under the impression the split upper bar chevron badge was actually the badge for Corporal, with a Master Corporal badge being the same as the one we have now.



I would second that.     As I recall in the post-unification CF days of the early '70s the split upper bar hooks indicated its Cpl. wearer was engaged on a career basis, ie. Regular force.     Militia Cpls. wore the full upper and lower bar hooks.      Reg. force M/Cpls. wore the hooks they wear today while, until they were issued combats and greens,   Militia M/Cpls. in those regiments that carried that rank, and not all did, superimposed a collar-dog on the v-joint of the Cpl's hooks.

Any other "old soldiers" out there who can validate my memory?


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## Steel Badger (14 Dec 2004)

My Father aserved in the Regular Army prior to the Evils of integration and afterwards.

He told me that the QCPL was a mark of distinction awarded by the Sovriegn to long Service Cpls, who, although not being able (or willing) to progress to Sgt were rewarded with the appointemnt for excellent svc.
He also mentioned the rank badge states during the immediate post integration phase and remembered that the 2 chevrons w/ inset leaf was used for a while as a cpl rank...Can any old solider's out there clarify the issue?

Apparently the a leaf was at one point considered for addition to  every rank to increase the Canadian content.


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## George Wallace (14 Dec 2004)

Jungle  

A Canadian soldier.  Believe he was a Strat.  Many at the Armour School remember Groovy Kean.

GW


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Dec 2004)

OMG, George. There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Last time I saw Groovy, he was working the tool crib in the Maint hanger around "96, asking to be introduced to my 13 year old (at the time) daughter. Still carried rolled up pizzas in his back pocket. Whatever happened to him?

And for the rank badge. That's the Corporal rank we used to wear. I still have a set of CF Greens around with them on.


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## Steel Badger (18 Dec 2004)

Recce Guy

I had thought that the badge had been issued to CPLs, thx for confirming

I am still under the impression that the set of chevrons with the leaf inset was designed for Queen's Corporal.


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## George Wallace (20 Dec 2004)

recceguy said:
			
		

> OMG, George. There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Last time I saw Groovy, he was working the tool crib in the Maint hanger around "96, asking to be introduced to my 13 year old (at the time) daughter. Still carried rolled up pizzas in his back pocket. Whatever happened to him?
> 
> And for the rank badge. That's the Corporal rank we used to wear. I still have a set of CF Greens around with them on.



I just heard that he is working at a civie job in the Fredericton area and is still known by his new colleagues to carry a slice of pizza in his pocket.

That is the original Cpl rank at Unification.   It caused some confusion with the newly created MCpl rank and was dropped.   The Maple Leaf became the indicator of a 'supervisory' rank.

GW


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## Art Johnson (20 Dec 2004)

This site has an interesting take on King's Corporal and other commendations.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/history-mid.htm#king


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## Veterans son (20 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I was under the impression the split upper bar chevron badge was actually the badge for Corporal, with a Master Corporal badge being the same as the one we have now. It was too easy to confuse the two, however, and the split upper bar badge for corporal was deleted in favour of a bare 2-bar chevron.



Michael

Thank you for your message. 
The chevrons(with leaf) as pictured, were the type worn by my father when he retired from the CF in 1971.
He retired as a Corporal. I used to think that his rank was Mcpl but I believe he said  a Mcpl had a crown over their two chevrons.


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## marshall sl (20 Dec 2004)

When I was promoted to Cpl thats the badge I first wore, then the M/Cpl rank came to the reserves and we got the plain two hooks. As I had only been a Cpl a couple of months I and several others didn't get an automatic bump to M/Cpl.


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## Steel Badger (21 Dec 2004)

Gients thanks for the info.....

But i have met with old army types (pre 1969)  who remember the badge as the badge for Queens Corporal...


Was it so?


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Dec 2004)

If that was the designation for Queen's Corporal (and as stated above, I don't think it was), there was one hell of a lot of us Queen's Corporals, though we never met her and were never recognised as such.


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Dec 2004)

Here is some info from my website about the Corporal chevrons with the leaf, couresty David Willard.  Perhaps Steel Badger is thinking of the B Corporal rather than the Queen's Corporal.  At that time, before the maple leaf was introduced, they had a small olive green crown (about a quarter of the size of the current WO crown, it was used for officer's slip ons on the Combat uniform)




> At the time of Unification, servicemen were given a raise in pay to keep them enrolled.  Signing bonuses of $200.00 were given for each year to a maximum of five that they re-enlisted for.  $1000.00 in 1967 was a life changing amount, possibly worth about ten times as much in 1999 dollars.   Rank was given away next; anyone who had ever had a Junior NCO course was automatically promoted to Corporal. Everyone who had 4 years of service automatically went on a new Junior Leaders Course to get him promoted to Corporal. Corporal was now a giveaway, it meant nothing as far as status was concerned, it was a shoe-in for everyone.
> 
> The problem was that at that time, Corporals were then section commanders. The actual commander now was leading a whole section of his rank peers. There was actual fighting in the ranks and discipline was poor.  * So another level was instituted - Senior Corporal. But that was not enough, they then introduced the "B" Corporal (indicating he had qualified Part B of the Junior NCO Course). They changed the chevrons to have a little crown sewed on over the hooks.*
> 
> We took turns being B Corporals as there were now so many of us. There was no continuity and of course this was unworkable. Finally instead of putting it back to what everyone knew was workable, they developed a new appointment...Master Corporal. But who would become the Masters? It was decreed that those wearing the B Corporal crown at the time would become the appointee.   New leadership qualities had to established....this took years and years to even get to the point where the right people were  in charge.  In the process, the rank of Corporal was destroyed in the Canadian Army.  Almost the exact same thing happened to the rank of Captain.


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## Steel Badger (24 Dec 2004)

Mike...

Thankyou for the informative post.....

It hits the effing nail on the head and is very relevant to the discussion ongoing in the "rank re-introduced" post....

A few of our bretheren have posted comments like...wouldn't bringing bacl LCPL be just names and more paperwork....

The answer is NO.....Lets return the rank of Corporal to its proper postion and dignity.......


The entire way the army functioned was changed (for the worse) by integration......Leading to a proliferation in ranks......

The old army rank structure was tried and tested under fire....it worked........and worked well....


The very fact we have these type of discussions indicates the CF rank sructure has serious issues.....but what do you expect when you haphazardly merge three independant (and environmentally) seperate services into a godless stramash that is still ( some 35 years later) feeling the precussions.....


As it stands now, CPLS are just a type of private, UNLESS we the leadership of the army ensure that the holders of the rank exercise the responsibility required of it.

I know in my case i will not recommend a soldier for promotion to Corporal if he cannot or does not exhibit a high standard of ability and responsibility....
And if there is one thing i hate ; it is hearing a soldier whine "But I'm only a Corporal"
Corporals are NCO's.....and our CPLs AND THE CF should remember it.


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## Veterans son (24 Dec 2004)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Mike...
> 
> Thankyou for the informative post.....
> 
> ...



Great post, Steel Badger!


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## George Wallace (26 Dec 2004)

Steel Badge

In all my time in the Army, I would not truly say that things are as bad as you tend to describe them.  I have seen Cpls and even Tprs perform in situations requiring leadership.  What hooks they wore did not detract from the position or respect they had gained in a "Deligated" position tasked them by their commanders.  I personally see no problems with the current rank structure....adapt to it and overcome your bias.  

Leaders will always rise to the top, no matter what rank they may wear on their sleeves.  There is incompetence at all levels, but restructuring the Rank Structure is not the solution.  That is what happened in the first place and we have worked through it.  Restructuring it again will only cause more incompetence to rise to the top and create more chaos.  Perhaps, what we really need is a war to get rid of the dead wood, as the political situation in the Forces today has the 'Ole Boy' club from organizations such as RMC promoting their friends and colleagues above others of merit.  That is the problem, not what hooks one wears.  Requirements of education and enforced Bilingualism are keeping potential leadership candidates hobbled and lessers are rising too fast.  Merit should be the only reason for advancement.  If a person shows leadership abilities, they should be promoted to do so, not the Francophone with the piece of paper on the wall that says he has successfully completed a PhD, but couldn't lead a drunk to the Pissoir.

More stringent regard to who we promote in rank, or give "Delegate Authority" to, is more important than "reinventing the wheel" IMHO.


GW


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## Reccesoldier (28 Dec 2004)

Well said George.

"Command: The lawfull authority a superior exerts over a subordinate in the forces by virtue of his rank and or appointment."

As a Cpl I was in charge of the TOET stand for a range we were running for an IFOR Deployment. I made one serial go through twice because they screwed it up so much the first time. The lowest rank on that serial was Captain, but I was in charge.

As a MCpl I was acting Troop Warrant during an ATI. My rank did not matter. I made the calls and got the job done. I reported to the SSM and was chewed out by him if anything went wrong.

Rank is not nearly as important as appointment and ANYONE can be appointed to be in charge.

Seems to me that anyone advocating that "X" rank can't do so and so is limiting not only the soldiers at that rank by not giving them the opportunity to prove their worth but limiting their own options in getting the task done.



Groovy Keen, didn't the boys call him Wedge? (ie. the simplest tool known to man)  ;D


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## Steel Badger (28 Dec 2004)

Gents


I am not saying all is doom and gloom......


I am saying that there is a tendancy to underemploy our CPLS  AND Senior Pyes....
The issue lies not in the capability of the Pte / CPL.......but in the minds of those who lead them.......


For example........Being told that MCPL and above are the only pers capable enough of  be in charge of the Gate for a Coy Camp in Bosnia. A good PL 2IC knowing his men/ women / creatures would disagree..
Suffice to say that the policy was amended (after much arguing) to allow my fully capable CPL's to run the gate .


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## Steel Badger (28 Dec 2004)

Ref my last..

I as well occupied many "higher level positions" as a CPl.........Sect Comd, acting PL 2ic.....as CQMS as a MCPL.....


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