# Facial Armour... Thoughts?



## Synthos (10 Feb 2006)

http://www.mtekweaponsystems.com/generation.html

Found this.. What do you think?


----------



## geo (10 Feb 2006)

Interesting.... looks like some of the face masks out of the Star Wars / Predator movies.

1st reaction would be that it looks / would probably be hot as hell to wear in the summer months high heat (regardless of what the website says)

would have some concerns about some visual impairments - but I could be wrong
what about CBRN capabilities - can't see a gasmask squeezing in underneath

Has anyone tried this?

The face shield that we (engineers) have on our bomb suits appears to provide better vision than this BUT this face shield would appear to provide better protection.


----------



## Sig_Des (10 Feb 2006)

as far as Gas mask:
http://www.mtekweaponsystems.com/g1spec.html



> NBC Compatible :  M40  (M42A1) Gas Mask



It also says there's apparently no FOV Restrictions (observed). Take what you want from that


----------



## Synthos (10 Feb 2006)

I agree with the heat issue, also I'm not sure how they do ventilation/gas mask compliance. In any case it's certainly an interesting and pretty scary looking piece of equipment.

I'm also not sure whether it would work with the elcan scopes or any other optical sighting. I think it would just be for sub 100m shooting.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (10 Feb 2006)

While I agree that it'd definitely be hot to wear, if I was doing convoy security missions again with my face exposed out of the turret of a LAV, I'd try one out.


----------



## Sig_Des (10 Feb 2006)

I wonder if they'll offer it in CADPAT  ;D


----------



## kyleg (10 Feb 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I wonder if they'll offer it in CADPAT  ;D


I was waiting for someone to say that :

Matt made a very good point about wearing it when manning a turret. I've never done it myself but I assume there isn't a whole lot of running around  so over heating would probably be less of an issue.

Looks pretty cool though, I'd love to see the look on someone's face when I burst through their door wearing that ;D

Cheers,
Pinky


----------



## geo (10 Feb 2006)

I hope it doesn't give you the same feeling as going out for a run in your gas mask.............

With respect to sitting in a turret - I know we recently started integrating transparent blocks to improve the gunner's vision while keeping him protected. Not 100% certain this piece of kit is 100% necessary. Nice to have but....


----------



## Trinity (10 Feb 2006)

the first pica on the site

from a slight distance

the guy looks like the Predator... from the movie?

anyone..  anyone.. biller?!


----------



## aesop081 (10 Feb 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> the first pica on the site
> 
> from a slight distance
> 
> ...



Life imitates art.

Pretty soon we will look like imperial storm troopers  ;D


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (10 Feb 2006)

Notice the mag on the rifle.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (10 Feb 2006)

Certainly an idea that has merit, but we also need to think of the effect of this kind of facial armour on the local population.  A bunch of faceless stormtroopers/predators does not lend itself to making a good connection with the populace.  

Maybe something that is put in the kit bag and brought out when the threat level warrants it.


----------



## Michael OLeary (10 Feb 2006)

Faceless, not necessarily.

We'll paint big smiles on them for your guys. ;-)


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (10 Feb 2006)

I should have seen that one coming!  Maybe we could put an LCD screen on it that would show "smilies" like those used here?


----------



## ChopperHead (10 Feb 2006)

that would scare the shit out of people seeing a platoon of people wearing those. specially at night. good phycolgical warfare.


----------



## Sig_Des (10 Feb 2006)

hmm...sorry guys I have "phycolgical" damage...what kind of specialist do you see for that?

Anywho, I guess I'd wear it if it was needed, and it was proven...but they need to build a radio headset into it!


----------



## Blackhorse7 (11 Feb 2006)

Methinks it would muffle the voice quite a bit... not too good for clearing rooms.  But I do agree with the extra protection in an exposed turret.


----------



## Big Red (11 Feb 2006)

2Bravo said:
			
		

> Certainly an idea that has merit, but we also need to think of the effect of this kind of facial armour on the local population.  A bunch of faceless stormtroopers/predators does not lend itself to making a good connection with the populace.
> 
> Maybe something that is put in the kit bag and brought out when the threat level warrants it.



Please....when you're rolling down Tampa at 30 km/h in the turret of a humvee trolling for IEDs the last thing you should be worried about is public relations. I'd wear one if I rode in a turret all day if it was comfortable.  

One of the big complaints with the lvl 2A armoured glass visors is that in the event an IED they blow upwards, and they are also too heavy. This seems to address both problems with a bit less protection.


----------



## Jaxson (11 Feb 2006)

One of the pictures taken from inside the helmet.

http://www.mtekweaponsystems.com/images/Untitled-9.jpg

Not intented to protect against Rifle fire, I havent been to afghanistan or iraq, But, from what ive seen on the news, all ive seen is various types of rifles and bombs used.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (11 Feb 2006)

Big Red,

Agreed.  In a turret or hatch in a high threat area is one thing, but if you are sending out patrols as part of a stability op then connecting with the populace is a concern.  Threat level should drive it.  We do this with weapon and protective states as it is.


----------



## geo (11 Feb 2006)

? integrate as part of Vehicle kit.
For drivers, Gunners & Crew commanders.

maybe we should paint on a duck's bill instead of a smilie (for those that are sitting ducks in their vehicle cabs).


----------



## KevinB (11 Feb 2006)

I agree with Big Red on the issue for a turret - but on a LAV or other AFV - IMHO for the GWagon, the Thombs and Bolen glass shield is a better approach and could be intergrated to a Hummer pretty easy and it is LIV glass (or LVI) IIRC...

 I dont forsee it being ANY good for a dismounted shooter -- both wieght and FOV issues - as well and breathing.

I'd be willing to try it tail gunning in my Soft Skin 4 Runner though...
 At least it would keep the brass from a M249 Para off my face  ;D


----------



## mover1 (11 Feb 2006)

So wearing glasses. Its hot I am running will they steam up? When I breathe will it steam up? 
How fraking cold will it be on my cheeks in the winter...
.is it beleclava compatible.?..
Will I have to get a bib from dental to keep the condensation spit drool that acumulates in it from staining my Cbt's?
Is wearing this for extended periods of time going to be bad for my future health? (lung issues, carceogenic)
Is this just something else that is cool for the first bit that will be hated and trashed in a year or so?
Is it worth it? Bullet may go through my cheeks however wearing this might  break my jaw.....
Can I still move my head around with as much dexterity with it on?
does it have a drinking tube?


----------



## kyleg (11 Feb 2006)

... would you ever have a need for it in the AF?


----------



## aesop081 (11 Feb 2006)

Pte.Pinky said:
			
		

> ... would you ever have a need for it in the AF?



We spend time on the ground too  :


----------



## kyleg (11 Feb 2006)

You could keep one in your golf bag, just incase your ball lands near an IED or UXO ;D


----------



## aesop081 (11 Feb 2006)

Pte.Pinky said:
			
		

> You could keep one in your golf bag, just incase your ball lands near an IED or UXO ;D



Yes, and i could also stuff my #1 driver right up your a** too


----------



## trucker00 (11 Feb 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> ? integrate as part of Vehicle kit.
> For drivers, Gunners & Crew commanders.



I don't think it would be a good idea if drivers should wear this piece of kit. It would really restrict your field of vision.  Maybe if your driving a AFV with hatches up.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Feb 2006)

Although lighterweight (not sure level of armour protection), Dutch CH47 Chinook crewman already have something similar in theatre here.

Duey

http://blog.siegnet.us/dutch/index.htm


----------



## scm77 (12 Feb 2006)

US Military has the same thing.


----------



## GO!!! (12 Feb 2006)

Looks like the simunition darth vader mask - and we all know how useful that is....


----------



## kyleg (12 Feb 2006)

I've foud that the biggest problem with the simunition mask is that the goggles are attached to, and not separate from the mask (which leads to fogging since one's breath is forced up into the goggles). Since this "facial armour" doesn't attach directly to any eye protection I don't think there would be as much of a fogging problem. But I do agree that those darth vader masks really do suck.

Cheers,
Pinky


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2006)

Pleading ignorance on that one, what's the deal with the masks you guys are mentioning?

Cheers,
Duey


----------



## kyleg (12 Feb 2006)

It's the mask that everyone is forced to wear when training with simunition (little plastic bullets filled with colouring that are fired from modified C7s and C8s). After wearing the mask for a few minutes it becomes impossible to see, let alone clear a room (simunition is used mainly for FIBUA training, AFAIK). Google can tell you a lot about simunition.

Cheers,
Pinky


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2006)

Ahhh, seen.  I would think the airflow for aircrew would keep it clear.  I thought thses were different as they seen to be a custom fit for the Gentex HGU-56P helo helmet...

Cheers,
Duey


----------



## GO!!! (12 Feb 2006)

This wonderful piece of kit.

http://www.tetragon.ca/view.cgi?uid=1063761490&sku=FX8000MaskBlack&currency=CDN

guarantees not being able to see, cannot put your cheek on the butt of your rifle to fire properly, falls off when running and, as pinky said, fogs up. If you turn your head, it will not move with it due to the throat protector, so you get to wear it sideways.

Keep up the good work DLR!


----------



## Big Red (12 Feb 2006)

Duey said:
			
		

> Although lighterweight (not sure level of armour protection), Dutch CH47 Chinook crewman already have something similar in theatre here.



I was going to trade for one (pure LCF) until the crew chief told me it wasnt armoured at all, just a piece of plastic. He said they are going to make an armoured version however.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Feb 2006)

Big Red said:
			
		

> I was going to trade for one (pure LCF) until the crew chief told me it wasnt armoured at all, just a piece of plastic. He said they are going to make an armoured version however.



BR, I heard that the life support guys in Ft. Rucker were trialling an armoured version but hadn't heard whether it had made the street yet...

Cheers,
Duey


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Feb 2006)

The evolution of the powered armoured suit.  I can see it now.


----------



## Da_man (12 Feb 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Looks like the simunition darth vader mask - and we all know how useful that is....



Yeah impossible to aim with that ****** on.  Also funny hpw they say "scratch-resistant polycarbonate" in the link poted above... cuz the masks ive used had so many scratch on them you could hardly see anything


----------



## Gayson (12 Feb 2006)

I've never had fogging proglems with the mask.

I do find it a little strange aiming with though.


----------



## Synthos (12 Feb 2006)

Da_man said:
			
		

> Yeah impossible to aim with that ****** on.  Also funny hpw they say "scratch-resistant polycarbonate" in the link poted above... cuz the masks ive used had so many scratch on them you could hardly see anything




scratch resistant =/= scratch proof


----------



## GO!!! (12 Feb 2006)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> I've never had fogging proglems with the mask.



You have to move around and shoot - just sitting there won't do it!


----------



## KevinB (13 Feb 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> You have to move around and shoot - just sitting there won't do it!



Very true -- very poor design.


----------



## NL_engineer (13 Feb 2006)

Synthos said:
			
		

> scratch resistant =/= scratch proof



Probably the same coting that is on the ballistic glasses; I find that they fog up more then the simulation/paintball (my units new way to train) masks.


----------



## mover1 (15 Feb 2006)

Pte.Pinky said:
			
		

> ... would you ever have a need for it in the AF?



Standing underneath a helicopter doing slung loads.
Keeping FOD from away from my face while doing and Engines Running on/off load..(ERO)
Hanging out a Herc waiting for some guys to jump out of the plane.
Going downtown to pickup some inane IOR at the airport.
masking my face when i am kicking the living crap out of someone like you.
To keep some overbearing Army dude off my case when I suddenly find myself deployed in a sea of green.
To cover with peanut butter using it like a salt lick.
using it as a chip bowl 
using it to take Ice from the ice machine to my hotel room
keeping spare change in so the cleaning lady in my hotel room doesn't take it.
to keep my tooth brush in in the bathroom of my hotel room...
to keep my hotel room key in....
make your mom wear while I am doing her in my hotel room....
make Aesop wear while he watches me do your mom in my hotel room.......
Eat cereal from it while I watch cartoons from my hotel room....

The list goes on...

What would you need it for in your unit... :-*


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Feb 2006)

OK, Mover, I'm following you on everything except this one?  ???



> to keep my hotel room key in...



?Que?   

Must be nice!....(I know, I know...you'll give me some sob story abour how the taxi got you late to P.au.Prince Arpt, etc...) >

Cheers, M1!  :cheers:

Duey


----------



## mover1 (15 Feb 2006)

DUEY YOU KNOW HIS MOM TOO!!!!!! 

Actually the cabbie piked me up on the street with a broken ankle in Crete. Not that I noticed till the next morning...(too drunk to realize it hurt)
Woke up, got out of bed  * smack*   i fall on the floor. Pull my boot on,tie it up real tight,  get on the airbus, Fall asleep, next thing I know I am getting a cast done in Geilenkirchen. What a way to end a 6 month tour 
I could have slipped at the pool or in the bar of the hotel...but on the street in Crete. Talk about bad timing.
As for Body armour the only time it came out of my Barracks Box was when I got a nice picture of the hotel staff making my bed in body armour and my helmet....thats the truth....

I am off to Italy next week...to watch cartoons in a hotel....


----------



## Sig_Des (15 Feb 2006)

> make Aesop wear while he watches me do your mom in my hotel room.......


 

Classy


----------



## kyleg (15 Feb 2006)

Well, I guess I stand corrected.

I supposed at my unit I'd need one to protect my beautiful face from an AF guy that can't take a joke


----------



## Sig_Des (15 Feb 2006)

Pte.Pinky said:
			
		

> I supposed at my unit I'd need one to protect my beautiful face from an AF guy that can't take a joke



by "protect", you mean hide....and by "beautiful", you mean ugly, and by "from an AF guy that can't take a joke", you mean for the good of unit mental safety, right?

 >


----------



## mover1 (15 Feb 2006)

Dude you will never finde such a creature...
all us Airforce guys take jokes well...
Infact I have a few on liners here that are quite laughable see what you think.

AIRLIFT  ;D
AIR POWER  :
Tactical AIRLIFT :blotto:
Aircraft Servicability 
Air Superiority  :blotto:
Sea king  :dontpanic:

See we in the Airforce are full of humour... don't take a classy rebuttal as a personal attack, everything is all in fun.


----------



## kyleg (15 Feb 2006)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Dude you will never finde such a creature...
> all us Airforce guys take jokes well...
> Infact I have a few on liners here that are quite laughable see what you think.
> 
> ...



It's all cool with me man 8)


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Feb 2006)

It could have been worse, Mover could have used a japanese word that starts with 'B' in his list..... :-\

Duey


----------



## mover1 (16 Feb 2006)

I NEVER THOUGHT OF BUKKAE or BUKkAKE or however yuu want to pronounce it....Duey you dirty dog...I like your train of thought


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2006)

Bonsai....what's wrong with bonsai...except that the little needles of the trees can poke you in the face, hence the need for a facial guard...

Mover...you've got me all wrong!   >

Cheers,
Duey


----------



## mover1 (16 Feb 2006)

You know the actual Japanese meaning is a type ofnoodle preparation.  Look it up on Wikipedia

Sorry Duey I guess when we will just have to pretend we don't know each other the next time we are standing in a line...or a circle....or a group.... :clown:


----------



## Michael OLeary (16 Feb 2006)

Well, this one has sufficiently declined to the point where a lock is suitable.
If someone has any real contribution on the subject of face shield, approach a Mod.
Don't be surprised if one of the Mods takes a few minutes to remove all of the extraneous discussion.


----------

