# NCMs Jacking Up Commissioned Officers



## canadiancarebear (24 Jul 2005)

Allright.
Im a commissioned officer ...of the junior type who needs some advice from those NCM's and officers with experince.  When an overzealous NCM starts talking to you in a disrespectful manner in front of a group of other officers and tries to "jack" you up for something what is the correct way to handle it.  Im asking this question because being posted to the language school in st jean theres some NCM's around who get a little "overzealous" and don't seem to know the differance in how to treat a commissioned officer from a private.  Just a curious question that could use a few answers....
Thank you


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## Ex-Dragoon (24 Jul 2005)

If its a safety issue and your attention needs to be focused to avoid loss of limb or life then I don't see an issue. However if errors are made by either officers or ncms the best approach is to take the person aside and to explain the situation. Diplomacy goes both ways.


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## DogOfWar (24 Jul 2005)

canadiancarebear said:
			
		

> Allright.
> Im a commissioned officer ...of the junior type who needs some advice from those NCM's and officers with experince.   When an overzealous NCM starts talking to you in a disrespectful manner in front of a group of other officers and tries to "jack" you up for something what is the correct way to handle it.   Im asking this question because being posted to the language school in st jean theres some NCM's around who get a little "overzealous" and don't seem to know the differance in how to treat a commissioned officer from a private.   Just a curious question that could use a few answers....
> Thank you



are you on a course and he is an instructor? What exactly happened? Did you put everyones life at risk? Did you do something that disrespected him or a superior officer? is it a matter of you being chatty in a classroom while he is trying to teach? If you feel he wronged you go and have a chat with him. But if you boned up and he called you on it I suggest you get over it.


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## Inch (24 Jul 2005)

I agree with Ex-D, if it was a safety issue, so be it. If it wasn't then it doesn't matter whether you're on course or not (BOTC being the obvious exception), you should be taken aside and corrected in private vice being corrected in front of your peers. If you're in the wrong, you better not start pulling rank, I personally believe that to be very unprofessional. Just admit you were wrong and politely ask the proper way of doing it. If it's an arbitrary jacking up, then by all means, take action as necessary but again, not in front of subordinates or peers either yours or his/hers.


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## Cloud Cover (24 Jul 2005)

canadiancarebear said:
			
		

> When an overzealous NCM starts talking to you in a disrespectful manner in front of a group of other officers and tries to "jack" you up for something what is the correct way to handle it.   Im asking this question because being posted to the language school in st jean theres some NCM's around who get a little "overzealous" and don't seem to know the differance in how to treat a commissioned officer from a private.




Perhaps a little more information, by way of example, might help ...


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## Gunner98 (24 Jul 2005)

If you are student on French Training and there are NCMs in your class, then you are both students. If you are doing something inappropriate you are receiving correction and it does not need to be done privately.  Since you are according to your profile a female 22U 2Lt and you say you are commissioned, the respect you have earned so far is a Ms or Ma'am along with the approp. correction.  

NCM learn to never pass a fault from day one.  Very junior officers learn a little slower.  If you perceive that you are being Jacked up and your peers feel the same way, then you should ask to speak privately with the individual.  If it is persistent then put your complaint and observations in writing and pass it up the chain.

A 2Lt does not have a lot of rank to pull, although I have seen many try unsuccessfully.  You best learn soon how to handle issues with NCMs as the gun line will be full of them.  If there are any Sr NCO (Sgts and above) on training or living in the quarters with you, then I would ask for their advice.

Your skin needs to grow a little thicker (in my 14 years as Gnr Offr I took and earned a lot of abuse from my subordinates with time you will learn to weed out the approp. from the inapprop.)- the Artillery is a predominantly drill manual-driven world, officers tend to think and ask to many questions, whereas NCMs do as they are taught and follow the drills.

St. Jean is not the real world so do not apply real world logic.  Does the Base CWO still inspect all room configurations regularly, where else in the real world does the RSM waste his time in such a manner.


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## canadiancarebear (24 Jul 2005)

LOL.  No no one has "jacked" me up.  But it has been an issue around the language school with a few individuals and I was just curious what the correct action would be.  The people it is happening to are junior officers with the language school and the sometimes overzealous NCMs are people from the recruit school who just happen to notice a flaw..Im just asking out of curiosity as I have alwasy found it better to learn from those with the experience that way should a situation arise to be able to handle it properly. Thank you.


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## DogOfWar (24 Jul 2005)

canadiancarebear said:
			
		

> LOL.   No no one has "jacked" me up.   But it has been an issue around the language school with a few individuals and I was just curious what the correct action would be.   The people it is happening to are junior officers with the language school and the sometimes overzealous NCMs are people from the recruit school who just happen to notice a flaw..Im just asking out of curiosity as I have alwasy found it better to learn from those with the experience that way should a situation arise to be able to handle it properly. Thank you.



you are dodging the question again- what EXACTLY happened. If students are getting picked up for having shitty deportment by nasty instructor Master Jacks- thats what they are paid for.

Please disregard all posts by this person...Especially this one!

Slim
STAFF


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## redleafjumper (24 Jul 2005)

I agree that more information is needed here.  Generally when something like that starts to happen the appropriate thing is to move the conversation to somewhere private - unless it is an emergency (safety issue) it  is usually highly inappropriate to discipline someone in public, especially when there is a disparity between rank.

Again there are times and circumstances that other answers might apply - without more information it is hard to say. I think that there is a saying that originates out of the MP branch that goes something like this:  "Sir, please don't confuse your rank with my authority"  The reverse is also true - "Corporal, please don't confuse your authority with my rank."  A little bit of mutual respect and good manners goes a long way.

My own reaction, again depending on the circumstances, would be to call a cease fire and move to an appropriate venue to sort it out in private.  As a subaltern, it is very important to listen to those with experience, and then make your decision with all the best information, but the end of the day if you are senior you are responsible and you will wear the decision you make.  There is some good general advice (and some tongue in cheek) at this site:

http://members.tripod.com/RegimentalRogue/

Check it out, you might find some of the advice to junior officers very useful.  

Sorry if this sounds a little wishy washy, but without more information that's the best I can do.


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## Erborn (24 Jul 2005)

Would someone please tell this old soldier what is a NCMS


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## mdh (24 Jul 2005)

Aren't we supposed to be jacked up by NCMs on course?? It's a character-building experience.


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## Inch (24 Jul 2005)

BobbyC said:
			
		

> Would someone please tell this old soldier what is a NCMS



Non-Commissioned Member


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## canadiancarebear (24 Jul 2005)

Allright
This topic seems to be getting some negativity and to those of you I have somehow ticked off Im sorry it was not my intention.  It was just a curiosity.  However to clarify...No none of the junior officers here are on any type of course.  It just so happens that the language school is next door to the recruit school so we see their NCMs all the time in halls and whatnot and there have been some issues with other people that I have seen ( BUT for another time it has not happened to me!!!!) where a passing MCPL has jacked up a junior officer..sometimes a LT as well in front of their peers for something small that they would notice in passing. I was just curious enough to ask the question on here because I have witnessed some junior officers handling it badly ie. trying to pull rank, publicly arguing with the NCM etc.  so I was just curious what the correct way of handling a situation like that would be.  Thats all.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Jul 2005)

I think the term "jacked -up" is what has people confused, when I jack you up you will know what a jack-up is, however if I saw you with some form of wrong dress[ or similar] and said " I don't believe your pants get tucked in your socks, sir/ maam",then thats just a respectful correction and not a "jack-up".

...and furthur, do not be afraid to ask these questions, there is a wide variety of "talent" here that can offer advice on these things, that is part of our agenda here.


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## Scoobie Newbie (24 Jul 2005)

I think you got your answer.  Ask the NCM if you could find a private corner to continue discussion.  Barring that suck it up, and chalk it up to life experience.


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## Chimo (24 Jul 2005)

My advice to a  junior Officer would be don't go there thinking there will be a confrontation or I am sure you will find it.

The Overzealous NCOs you are referring to are there because they do not pass faults, cut corners or handle BS kindly. If you need to be corrected I am sure it will happen. Some NCOs are more skilled in tact then others but an on the spot correction should and most likely will take place.

During any good jacking up session, three events will be stated, first- what the problem was that lead to this encounter, secondly, what the proper action should have been, and lastly, what corrective action must be taken.

My advice to you is not to worry if the NCO is talking to you like a private or not, if you deserve to be spoken to like a private I am sure the NCO will accommodate you, however, listen and listen closely to what the NCO is saying and  you may actually learn something and you troops in the future may benefit from that knowledge.

If the NCO is truly insubordinate, do not get into a shouting match, note the Name and Rank, the details of the situation, and any witnesses and address it through your Chain of Command, just like we would do in the Army.


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## Britney Spears (24 Jul 2005)

Since you already get the big bucks and the hi-fives, we kinda expect you to get things right the first time.


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## S McKee (25 Jul 2005)

All right Carebear if your writing into a public form wondering what to do because you got "jacked-up" by an NCO then like most young officers you probably needed it. Carry-on...


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## Kat Stevens (25 Jul 2005)

If they are recruit school staff, and jr offrs are slouching around like a sack full of doorknobs tied loosely about the middle, that is a bad example for the boots, and deserves correction.  Lead by example ring any bells?  ;D

Kat


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## devil39 (25 Jul 2005)

I was only jacked publicly by one CWO as a commissioned officer, and that was in the "old" infantry School.  Generally the "good" or "respected" Sgts and WO's corrected Junior officers in private from my experience.   They usually get their expected results as well from my experience.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Jul 2005)

While NCOs and SNCOs have obviously "over did it" when addressing very Junior officers I've often found an NCOs polite correction in front of other soldiers often resulted in the junior officer feeling disrespected and wrongly "jacked up".

It's not something that needs to be blown out of perportion.  It's a hassle to take a 2LT aside somewhere private away from other soldiers all the time just to tell the guy that his boot laces are hanging out or that his flag is on upside down. THAT draws everyones attention.

An NCO correcting a mistake isn't an NCO trying to embarass a junior officer in front of his or her soldiers.


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## mover1 (25 Jul 2005)

You are a Junior officer awaiting training or on training at a training establishment. That means you are fair game for any instructor to pick you up for any lack of military bearing they see. It happens in battle school it happens in CFSAL  it happens in the fleet school , its just life.  
If it was unjustified, then bring it up to your superiors, and always get the name of those who "wronged you"  
Try to bring  lots of Kleenex for your phase courses. There will be lots of yelling at you by NCMs of all flavours.

BTW are you at work right now surfing the net when you should be learning a second language?
Does your instructor know this?
Should he take you aside or use you as an example as fair warning to all the others in your class?


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## Franko (25 Jul 2005)

Being an NCO who has instructed on CIC BOQ Courses in the past I have pulled officers aside and sorted them out.

I maintained my composure and addressed the individual in an appropriate manner...Mr or Ms, didn't matter.

Have had a few problems...the persons couldn't get their head around the fact that they were being corrected by a Cpl and attempted to jack me up.   :

That didn't last long. Kept calm and cool, waited for them to end their rant (tears in their eyes to boot) and went straight to the course officer. He read the entire course the riot act and pulled the students aside to be chatted up...by me and himself. Their actions were corrected and the students "Holier than thee" attitude was quickly dealt with as well.

Needless to say...if an NCO pulls you aside with the proper etiquette and trys to correct you, listen. He's not giving you a blast for no good reason. It's a learning point. Take it and remember it. You'll be a better officer for it.

Mind you if he doesn't pull you aside and jacks you up in front of everyone...it had better be for a damn good reason.

My .02

Regards


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## DBA (25 Jul 2005)

The description is a bit too open ended to offer solid advice. There is a big difference between mentioning a dress and deportment fault in a regular voice and screaming from across the road about standing on the grass. Also matters if they are overstepping their knowledge of the situation. A 'get off the grass' with an invective to a gaggle of troops around a Padre who came by for a planned quick between classes visit is one way I have seen people burn themselves. 

Some general dress and deportment advice. Take a look in the mirror before leaving your room each time and check dress and deportment. Scan from top to bottom and then check each side the same way. Before hanging up a jacket or shirt check that all the correct accessories are there and in the right place ready for when you will wear it next. Same for putting away the rest of the uniform after wearing it or doing laundry. Make it presentable then rather than trying to do when rushed latter on. Keep a small stash of spare accessories like bootbands and rank slipons and as you use them replace them in a timely fashion so you allways have spares. Buy more of consumables when the previous one drops below half or 3/4 used. Get a haircut or trim on a regular basis say every 3rd Tuesday for example. There is lots of other advice in this regard but I find those with poor dress and deportment just don't put any effort into it.


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## Horse_Soldier (25 Jul 2005)

Let's get one thing clear here.  An officer, recruited off the street, who is not yet MOC qualifed, no matter his/her rank, is generally only a commissioned officer because of our wierd and wonderful entry plans whereby we tie rank to pay.  If we didn't have to pay people with certain degrees or career streams more than others, every aspiring officer would be a OCdt until MOC qualified - as it should be.  I was sent to CFOCS as incremental staff as a 2Lt to teach on a BOTC during the summer between my grad from CMR and my posting to my unit.  I had medical officers wearing Capt stripes in my platoon.  I had no hesitation in jacking them up if they required it - as far as I was concerned, those Capt stripes were unearned and only a reflection of pay.  Until such a time as an officer was proven worthy of the commission by completing MOC training, he/she is an aspiring officer in training and should rightly be the subject of correction by NCOs who notice faults.  As long as the jacking up or correction is done with due military courtesy - well, let me put it this way, I had no problems telling a Capt on my BOTC that he looked like a bag of hammers, and he took his medicine like a good little future army doctor.  ;D

Mind you, there was that time I after I joined my unit when I was jacked up by the RSM in front of my troops - but I had earned it.


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## IPC10 (25 Jul 2005)

Please remember that there will also come a time when you have to â Å“correct a faultâ ? of an NCO.  If there is time don't hesitate to ask for guidance from places such as the Coy/Sqn 2i/c, the Adjt.  Its not a lot of fun.

on the lighter side they usually will not tear up as mentioned above...ya know get all misty on ya.... but I do remember a look that one RSM not of my unit gave me when I asked him to leave a building for safety reasons.....right after he had 'jacked-me up' for a dress and deportment issue.


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## Judy (25 Jul 2005)

I was in the same position a year ago in St-Jean.  Although I did realize that as an un-qualified 2Lt, I hadn't done ANYTHING to really earn any type of respect,  but some of the NCMs there were downright disrespectful.  If I was walking down the hall and an NCM saw me coming, he'd turn his back, pretend to be tying his shoe, refuse to make eye contactetc., just so he wouldn't have to salute me.  Granted, I felt like an idiot a lot of the time being saluted by a 25 year WO, but that's just the nature of the military.

And yes - a lot of us noticed that NCMs would take any opportunity to point out any little wrong-doing.  It seemed like a lot of them had this attitude of "I hate Officers, and I'm going to take this chance to get back at them!"  And yes, I agree that if I was walking down the hall with no epaulettes on or something that was worthy of being mentioned - by all means, mention it.  I AM new in the military and have things to learn..... but some of the things they stopped to pick up on were absolutely ridiculous.


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## mover1 (25 Jul 2005)

Judy give some examples please?


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## dutchie (25 Jul 2005)

Judy said:
			
		

> And yes, I agree that if I was walking down the hall with no epaulettes on or something that was worthy of being mentioned - by all means, mention it.   I AM new in the military and have things to learn..... but some of the things they stopped to pick up on were absolutely ridiculous.



Unless you provide specific examples of these 'ridiculous things' you were picked up for, I will be forced to assume that the NCO was right, and 'corrected' a legitimate fault in a completely appropriate manner, and you're merely whining. Why complain about how you were treated and not tell us the specifics? You admit your lack of experience, but expect us to take your word that a MUCH more experienced NCO was wrong, and you and your lack of experience are right, with no clear examples. You're asking a lot.


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## S McKee (25 Jul 2005)

Judy said:
			
		

> I was in the same position a year ago in St-Jean.   Although I did realize that as an un-qualified 2Lt, I hadn't done ANYTHING to really earn any type of respect,   but some of the NCMs there were downright disrespectful.   If I was walking down the hall and an NCM saw me coming, he'd turn his back, pretend to be tying his shoe, refuse to make eye contactetc., just so he wouldn't have to salute me.   Granted, I felt like an idiot a lot of the time being saluted by a 25 year WO, but that's just the nature of the military.
> 
> And yes - a lot of us noticed that NCMs would take any opportunity to point out any little wrong-doing.   It seemed like a lot of them had this attitude of "I hate Officers, and I'm going to take this chance to get back at them!"   And yes, I agree that if I was walking down the hall with no epaulettes on or something that was worthy of being mentioned - by all means, mention it.   I AM new in the military and have things to learn..... but some of the things they stopped to pick up on were absolutely ridiculous.



It's called earning your stripes. Like you said why should a 25 year WO respect a pup like you? You've only been in since coffee break. Being an officer isn't all about getting salutes and compliments because it's apart of the military, (technically WOs, Snr NCOs and lower ranks pay respect to the rank not the person). Don't take offence, that they don't respect you, realize that YOU have to earn the respect of the men and women under your command, because one day you may have to order them to do something unpleasant: like die. No disrespect but try to look at from the lower decker's point of view? Young officers who go right from high school into university for 4 years or so, get a degree, and somehow all that book readin' makes you a leader of men? Sorry, there's bound to be a little animosity.


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## Gill557 (26 Jul 2005)

devil39 said:
			
		

> I was only jacked publicly by one CWO as a commissioned officer, and that was in the "old" infantry School.   Generally the "good" or "respected" Sgts and WO's corrected Junior officers in private from my experience.     They usually get their expected results as well from my experience.



On the subject of the infantry school, and I'm thinking of CAP as part of that.  What is the style of "correction" that I can look forward too.  I'm just curious since I know most of my CAP instructors are going to be NCO's, and I was wondering what they are going to say to correct me when I F***-up, notice I say WHEN and not IF since everyone F***s something up.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jul 2005)

Judy,

Let's try this. We salute the Commission, not the person, until they prove themselves. Without the Commission, you'd be a Private. Take it from there.


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## DVessey (26 Jul 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> It's called earning your stripes. Like you said why should a 25 year WO respect a pup like you? You've only been in since coffee break. Being an officer isn't all about getting salutes and compliments because it's apart of the military, (technically WOs, Snr NCOs and lower ranks pay respect to the rank not the person). Don't take offence, that they don't respect you, realize that YOU have to earn the respect of the men and women under your command, because one day you may have to order them to do something unpleasant: like die. No disrespect but try to look at from the lower decker's point of view? Young officers who go right from high school into university for 4 years or so, get a degree, and somehow all that book readin' makes you a leader of men? Sorry, there's bound to be a little animosity.



I imagine that you'll take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I'm one of those straight-out-of-highschoolers, *and* I go to RMC, but I still think that it's disrespectful to all-out ignore a commissioned officer. What kind of example is it setting anyway? On BOTC, if an officer happens to wander by, whether it's the Div commander or a lost 2Lt and the platoon isn't brought to attention, would the DS not bring down a world of crap on the platoon? And then to see that same DS a few months later ignoring 2Lt's.
Maybe we should be OCdts until fully MOC qualified, what do I know? I'm barely in the system. I do know that this is how the system works now though, and that's what we have to work with.

My two cents, however much you want to take them for...


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## mover1 (26 Jul 2005)

So. We are to stop and all bask in the glory of a 2 Lt on BOTC. Who is probably on the same playing field as the recruits we are teaching.

In the while a training establishment, the order of the day was not to salute anyone lower than the rank of Captain unless you knew that that person was a LT and a part of the staff. The reasoning was that there were just too darn many officers lagging about to salute. We were staff they were students and until they passed their course these officer were considered fodder. It was impractical to salute everyone.

I saw troopers put 2 Lt's in line when it came to courses. Why because of the attitudes of those involved. The Trooper did also have the backing of a Sgt. who fully supported what that trooper did.
( the long of the story is. I provide examples for everyone. Trooper A was tasked to do a change of personnel from a field location to the barracks. "Go take these 5 guys in and get the next five for guard duty. And while your at it get them to fill these 20 jerry cans with water. anyone gives you a hard time I want them here in front of me." 
So Trooper A goes with his 5 OCDTs to the shacks and gets the course to fill up the cans with water. Octd B comes out and doesn't understand why he should fill the cans. Its Saturday and his day off he is going back to bed.  Tpr A  tells him politely that its called team work and the quicker it gets done the quicker he can go back to bed.
Octd B slams the door in his face. Tpr A tries the door its locked. He goes to the Barrack warden explains the situation the Barrack warden gives Tpr A the key. Ocdt B tells Tpr A to get his heels together when addressing him Tpr A tells Ocdt B to get his uniform on he is coming with him to see the DS.
Both the Tpr and the Ocdt go to the Field the Octd gets a dressing down  a few extras and the Tpr gets a pat on the back for handling it tactfully.)


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## Gunner98 (26 Jul 2005)

If the OCdts were on a training establishment in the past, they should have been marching in formation and then one high five for them would do fine.  At the time you were not saluting pers below the rank of Capt, some folks included CIL (now CIC), Padres, Med Offrs, Nurses - let's say it became cap badge specific.

There are no ridiculous faults on a training establishment - the OCdts must be an example to the recruits, if they are failing at that then they should expect to be jacked up.

Let's be clear it is the Queen through the Queen's Commission that you are saluting.  Respect the Queen, respect the rank, respect the officer.  On one forum we are complaining about not getting enough exercise on this one its jacking up.  I say return to the good old days of a few laps around the parade square with dummy rounds over our heads, 2Lts and OCdts leading.  If you are not a good example are a bad one.  Get over it.


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## ex royal now flyer (26 Jul 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> It's called earning your stripes. Like you said why should a 25 year WO respect a pup like you? You've only been in since coffee break. Being an officer isn't all about getting salutes and compliments because it's apart of the military, (technically WOs, Snr NCOs and lower ranks pay respect to the rank not the person). Don't take offence, that they don't respect you, realize that YOU have to earn the respect of the men and women under your command, because one day you may have to order them to do something unpleasant: like die. No disrespect but try to look at from the lower decker's point of view? Young officers who go right from high school into university for 4 years or so, get a degree, and somehow all that book readin' makes you a leader of men? Sorry, there's bound to be a little animosity.



There should be no animosity.  Do we not all walk through the doors of the recruiting centre as civilians and make a choice as to what trade, officer or NCM?  In my opinion, we all the have same opportunity when walking into the recruiting centre for the first time.  The choices you make are your decision.  For example, when I joined 18 years ago I joined as a private - because I wanted to, although I qualified for officer.  Though I am now commissioned, I never felt any animosity towards officers when I was a NCM.  Officers do have to set an example to the troops - be it having polished boots, a proper hair cut, or all buttons done up, etc..  If the example is not being set then they deserve to be corrected.  When I was instructing at the BSL, I had no problems correcting OCdts for faults that needed correcting.  It is all part of the training system and all recruits either officer or NCM go through it.  NCMs also have to lead by example.  This means saluting all officers regardless if they have been in since coffee break, a nurse, a doctor, or a PaffO.  It is all part of being professional.  Respect works both ways  

This whole string sounds like a lot of whining.  It must be a reflection of the younger generation who do not like being yelled at for their own mistakes.  Instead of crying about being yelled at or "corrected" why not learn from your mistake and soldier on.  

Just my two cents worth.


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## DVessey (26 Jul 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> So. We are to stop and all bask in the glory of a 2 Lt on BOTC. Who is probably on the same playing field as the recruits we are teaching.



No, not at all. Jack the ones on BOTC up till the sun comes up. But the 2Lt's in question are on French training.


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## Horse_Soldier (26 Jul 2005)

DVessey said:
			
		

> No, not at all. Jack the ones on BOTC up till the sun comes up. But the 2Lt's in question are on French training.


So?  Still not MOC qualified and therefore commissioned for pay reasons only.  In a real world, those 2Lts would be Ocdts, but this is the CF fantasy where rank and pay are linked.  Let's not carry the fantasy to the point where non-MOC qualified 2Lts are to be treated by NCOs in the same fashion as the 2Lts in Battalions and Regiments who have completed training and proven they are worthy of the rank.  Until such a time as an officer is fully MOC qualified, he/she remains fair game for correction as he/she is nothing more than an Ocdt who by accident of poor entry and pay scheme design carries a commissioned officer's rank.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jul 2005)

MOD INJECTION

Folks, I'm starting to sense a merry-go-round here, and I get motion sickness, so unless one has something new to add........


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## elscotto937 (26 Jul 2005)

Interesting topic, and for the most part I agree with those who have said polite correction is the way to go. But, I'm not so quick to jump on the " your not qualified...therefore you get what you get" band wagon. Aside from the safety concern, and situations where it is the persons (NCOs) job to correct the officer (i.e. BOTC, Phase 2). 
The question I have is, where is the line drawn, if I were to walk down the hall and had obvious deficiencies (Flag on upside down, pants unbloused, etc..) then I would like to be politely corrected. For things relatively minor, scuff on boots, wrinkle in pants... does it need to be said at that time and place... if you think the answer is yes then it can be done politely and respectfully. However, if the NCO is stopping the officer in the hall and telling him his boots are _very bad_ and than he is bag of _very bad stuff_ that is inappropiate, and the matter must me directed to the chain of command. Because the goal is not to make the officer feel like an idiot, but rather to correct his current deficency.


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## Steel Badger (26 Jul 2005)

"Keep your voice down Sir, you'll frighten the lads"....

"Come along now, that's a good Gentleman."


C/Sgt Frank Bourne
Rourkes Drift


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## mover1 (26 Jul 2005)

So in the end. We can sum this thread.
We can say that an officer who holds a commission deserves the respect entitled to that rank at that given time.
When on course those individuals, who are at the student level , act accordingly as individuals in a training establishments, as it is laid out in the School standing orders.
Instructors and staff of the course are to carry themselves in a professional manner only   pointing out deficiencies and shortcomings in an ,individual or group and their actions, in a manner appropriate to the offence, that persons status, and the situation.
If you feel that the rules have been bent or not followed in regards to what ever protocol in at question. Then it is within the rights of those involved to take it up their respective chains of commands.
And like my dad told me. 
" you f*8k up, admit it. Take the blows and carry on."


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## DBA (26 Jul 2005)

I now remember the advice of an RSM in regards to questions like this. Have them either ask advice about a real incident with full particulars provided or ask a general question about what the correct or mandated way to do something is. A hybrid of the two isn't productive to answer.


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## DogOfWar (26 Jul 2005)

Scott937 said:
			
		

> Interesting topic, and for the most part I agree with those who have said polite correction is the way to go. But, I'm not so quick to jump on the " your not qualified...therefore you get what you get" band wagon. Aside from the safety concern, and situations where it is the persons (NCOs) job to correct the officer (i.e. BOTC, Phase 2).
> The question I have is, where is the line drawn, if I were to walk down the hall and had obvious deficiencies (Flag on upside down, pants unbloused, etc..) then I would like to be politely corrected. For things relatively minor, scuff on boots, wrinkle in pants... does it need to be said at that time and place... if you think the answer is yes then it can be done politely and respectfully. However, if the NCO is stopping the officer in the hall and telling him his boots are _very bad_ and than he is bag of _very bad stuff_ that is inappropiate, and the matter must me directed to the chain of command. Because the goal is not to make the officer feel like an idiot, but rather to correct his current deficency.



People correct an issue only when they believe it is WORTH correcting. Gently carressing the subbies hair and saying "now sir that we are alone- your boots could use a little work" will not bring change around. For young military personnel they need FEAR ofbeing picked up for something. FEAR of being singled out or called out, or noticed. As time goes on deportment becomes second nature but at first its a new skill and must be reinforced.

At least thats my take on it.


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## Gunner98 (26 Jul 2005)

Bruce

Lock it down, I can't see much that has been added since my original response.  Without concrete examples everyone is guessing at the right answer.


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## Zoomie (26 Jul 2005)

One last stab at the dead horse from me...

The Mega is a unique environment that really doesn't have an inkling of what it is really like in the CF.

As a student at the Language School, you really shouldn't have much contact with the recruit school.  However, if an NCM were to roar loudly and come aboard you for relatively benign reasons, the correct response would be "As you were Master Corporal."  Followed by you turning your back on him/her and going about your merry way.  Remember that the staff in the green sector are accustomed to being socially abrasive and tend to forget what the real world is all about.  A very blunt, yet polite reminder of such is sometimes warranted.

Cheers


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## dutchie (26 Jul 2005)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> However, if an NCM were to roar loudly and come aboard you for relatively benign reasons, the correct response would be "As you were Master Corporal."   Followed by you turning your back on him/her and going about your merry way.



Right or wrong, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when a newbie 2Lt or OCdt says this to a seasoned NCO. That'd be a hoot! The poor bugger won't know what hit 'em.


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## Gramps (26 Jul 2005)

"Lock it down, I can't see much that has been added since my original response.  Without concrete examples everyone is guessing at the right answer. "

Now that doesn't sound conceited at all especially the "I can't see much that has been added since my original response." remark.


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## Gill557 (26 Jul 2005)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Right or wrong, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when a newbie 2Lt or OCdt says this to a seasoned NCO. That'd be a hoot! The poor bugger won't know what hit 'em.



Poor bugger as in the seasoned NCM or the newbie 2Lt when his OC gets ahold of him after the seasoned NCM quietly speaks to someone he knows at the newbie's posting.  ;D 
I hear NCM's, espcially Sgt.'s and WO's, are good at that. That's why I was told by some very smart NCM's before I became an officer, "Don't mess with your WO, he can f*** up your life."  ;D


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jul 2005)

Gramps is right and I'm getting dizzy,...... locked


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