# Discipline



## winchable (15 Feb 2004)

Another thread was leaning towards this discussion already, it is also something that comes up in my family quite a bit (It being a military family)
It is that of discipline;
What are everyones thoughts on disciplinary actions within the military, both from a historical perspective as well as its place in the new army?
How has it changed changed over the years?
Does harsher action breed a more disciplined soldier or unit? If so, why has physical discipline been discontinued?


Thoughts anyone?


----------



## dano (15 Feb 2004)

I think disciplinary action are to be harsh, yet just.

"Don‘t make a man do push-ups in the snow in his t-shirt and pants because he can‘t properly clean the parade square" ..... Though.. it is temping..

It‘s importent to have discipline swift and regularly. I‘ve all seen to much slack from Cadets, and all they would need is some physical disciplinary action.
Having them pick up garbage or clean the toilets with a tooth brush does not work on to well with these Cadets.

I think, you can‘t live with it, but you can‘t live with-out it.


----------



## winchable (15 Feb 2004)

The punishment has to match the infraction that goes without saying.

...I don‘t know about introducing corporal punishment into the cadet program...thats almost sick.


----------



## Franko (15 Feb 2004)

Corporal punishment shouldn‘t be involved in the cadet movement whatsoever.

As for punishment here‘s a good one....

We had some jokers from the Engineers who are part of the battle group do something pretty stupid things recently. One night they decided to spray their units name on the wall with a fire extinguisher with the added point that they "ruled". The camp SSM did some looking and poking and prodding...found out who they were. 

They were put on defaulters for a couple of weeks before their charge parade.

The duty? Fire picket from 1700 to 2400 every night with a fire extinguisher attached to a harness that they HAD to wear during the course of their picket.   

They also had a dozen sheets stragically placed around the camp that had to be signed during the course of their rounds...and the SSM checked them EVERY morning.

Quite creative I think...any thoughts?

Regards


----------



## Pikache (15 Feb 2004)

It certainly gets the point across.


----------



## pte anthony (15 Feb 2004)

For punishment to work the solider must understand why he or is being punished he must accept his mistake but above all he must feel a loyality or trust to the one that is enforcing the punishment, because if he does not the punishment will not help to right the wrong in the future but instead it will create feelings of resentment and the it will be the source of problems in the future.Punishment is meant to correct bad habits and make a better solider I believe that more dicipline is needed in the forces right now at least with what I see on the reserve side anyway. I hope its not like that when I go reg    :soldier:


----------



## patt (15 Feb 2004)

its getting bad, people who do bad things dont really get what they deserve, i dont know if this applies to all bases but over here They arnt allowed to be punished by workin in the Kitches on weekends cuz its ‘too hard‘ on them


----------



## winchable (15 Feb 2004)

That kind of punishment suits the crime perfectly.

Has anyone (most likely the older members) experienced corporal punishment  *first hand* and seen the results either positive or negative in their time in?

I‘m not advocating it, mind you, I‘m just curious.


----------



## dwild40 (15 Feb 2004)

Che
We had a rather large rotund individual in our unit whom we called "earth" in reference to his body shape.  Also our RSM at the time was ordered to lose some weight unbeknownst to me.  Any way we had a trg weekend at Ipperwash and I went into the stores bldg to use the washroom I saw this round individual at the urinal and I slapped his back and said "how‘s it going earth?" When I started my business it was then I realized it was the RSM and not earth.  I felt 2 inches tall and I could not apologize enough to him.  He accepted my apologies.  However I used to have a big mouth and I told A buddy "You‘ll never believe what I just did".  I told him, and of course it went up the chain of command in no time.  Now it wasn‘t corporal punishment I was subjected to.  It was Master Corporal punishment.  For 6 months I was assigned Orderly Corporal duties for every Trg weekend.  No relaxation for me with my buddies in the mess.  I had to stay in the orderly room should anything arise.  However it was easier to sleep there than in the barracks as there was no one else snoring within a 100m radius.  Also during the days I‘d get assigned sentry duty at the beach while the ranges were in use.  Not so bad in the Spring but in the winter it sure sucked.


----------



## gate_guard (16 Feb 2004)

Discipline is part and parcel of the military. Without discipline our military would not function, we would be a band of armed roving thugs. There is a difference, however, between useless and effective discipline. Useless discipline involves tasks that only make the soldier hate his job. Effective discipline corrects the problem and makes that troop a better soldier. Now what constitutes either is a fine line. No punishment should be too easy yet... There are no bad troops, just bad leaders and discipline is a tool for leaders to use. It most cases, disciplinary actions would be prevented if leaders were doing there job.


----------



## winchable (16 Feb 2004)

I suppose what I should ask is:
Does anyone think that "old school" discipline had its merits?And is the new army at a loss without it?


----------



## Spr.Earl (17 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Che:
> [qb] I suppose what I should ask is:
> Does anyone think that "old school" discipline had its merits?And is the new army at a loss without it? [/qb]


Yes to both question‘s!
Just one case in point:When preinspecting troop‘s and you find a fault you must inform that person that you are going touch them and correct thier uniform!!
If you follow the rule‘s.

Give me a break!!!

If they are trained they should know better and I should be allowed to dress them down on thier failing!!

All suger and spice corrective measure‘s don‘t work because the offender‘s know that they can get away with anything just short of murder because of the Official Policies!!

It‘s so easy to be called up on charge‘s of harasment,racism or sexism etc these day‘s that one has to be very carefull what one say‘s or does because of the broad rule‘s inplace today.

Where does it stop?


----------



## winchable (17 Feb 2004)

Does anyone think that physical punishment has no place in the army whatsoever, and that the new rules are fine, if not better then the old way of doing things?


----------



## Infanteer (17 Feb 2004)

I have a better question.  Why is collective punishment now offically outlawed for individual mistakes.  I personally feel that nothing reinforces the value of failure or success as a team than having the whole unit suffer for some shitbirds failure.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (17 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb] I have a better question.  Why is collective punishment now offically outlawed for individual mistakes.  I personally feel that nothing reinforces the value of failure or success as a team than having the whole unit suffer for some shitbirds failure. [/qb]


Very true, i know myself personally would take alot more care in what im doing if i knew the rest of the guys in my unit were going to suffer. I can take punishment, but not when others are punished on my behalf.

My favourite is on Full Metal Jacket when he makes the guy eat the doughnut while his buddies do push-ups. That alone would motivate me to never screw up again.


----------



## Spr.Earl (18 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb] I have a better question.  Why is collective punishment now offically outlawed for individual mistakes.  I personally feel that nothing reinforces the value of failure or success as a team than having the whole unit suffer for some shitbirds failure. [/qb]


Well that‘s a new one on me and it suck‘s!!


Collective remiedial training teach‘s.What I mean is after a section has been given remiedal training as whole for one man/women‘s action‘s they all get together to correct that person‘s failing‘s and learn how to work as a team and if not the corrective measure‘s will continue untill the team learn‘s how to help and work together.
Yet is no fun for instructer‘s either as it take‘s away from thier free time aslo.

That was how I was taught and has worked for my self and many other‘s with in this forum.
But vicious remiedial training I do go against and in the past it did happen (have seen it and been abused )and this is why we have the new broad policies which suck.

Higher should let common sense reign and remove the present policies and let those being trained know what is expected of them that if they do not meet the grade they will recieve collective or individual remiedial training and if they agree they sign the paper if not they don‘t sign up.

TEAM WORK WIN‘S WAR‘S!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Feb 2004)

Infanteer, let me get this straight. Are you telling me if I was instructing a course and during a run someone started to lag behind that I could‘nt do the infamous "doublerightwheel" and go back with the troops to pick him/her up? This was basic team building back in my day. It just gets weirder all the time.   CHEERS


----------



## Infanteer (18 Feb 2004)

No that is still possible.  Don‘t get me wrong, the instructors still think of good methods of collective punishment to motivate the group.

However, things such as group PT is forbidden if given for someone‘s less then satisfactory effort on an inspection.  This, I feel, eliminates an important method for reinforcing proper behaviour.


----------



## gate_guard (18 Feb 2004)

While collective punishment can be and is an effective tool for team building it has it‘s place. You have to keep in mind why you are using it. Are you making everyone do pushups because one person screwed up? That fails in its intent because it only creates a rift between the troops. The individual who screwed up becomes alienated and the rest of the troops pin their discomfort on that one troop. Full Metal Jacket is a prime example. What happened? Buddy ended up going psycho cause the rest of the course felt he was dragging them all down. If you‘re going to use collective punishment, it has to be for a collective crime, ie a few troops screw up as opposed to one. This is especially pertinent with todays diversity of individuals joining the army. 

You have to remember what the end goal is and teach accordingly. The goal is not to see how hard you can make it for the troops (the typical "When I went through I had to do 1000 pushups a day so I‘ll make these guys do 2000). The goal is to see every troop pass learning all the information required and prepared to join his respective unit. Obviously this becomes difficult with the weak standard in todays army. But nonetheless, if I‘m instructing a troop who will later join my unit, regardless of whether I like him or not, it is my duty to ensure he is as well trained as possible. This becomes inherently more difficult if he is isolated through methods such as collective punishment. As I stated earlier, collective punishment has its place, but instructing today is a science and a careful balance has to be struck for the benefit of all the troops, not just the keeners.

Everyone would love to see a high standard set for joining, to weed out the weak from the get go. Unfortunately this is not the case and one has to keep in mind that someday you may be on operations beside the troops you just trained.


----------



## combat_medic (18 Feb 2004)

I agree with collective punishment in certain cases. The whole jelly doughnut incident would certainly make me feel awful enough to never repeat a fault, but not everyone is the same way.

On my basic, we had a lot of collective pushups for doing things wrong (someone misses a timing, talking too much in class etc.), but there was one girl on my course who just didn‘t get it. She would miss a timing, and we‘d all be down doing pushups until she arrived. This happened several times, and when we confronted her about it, she said "why should I care? It‘s not like _I‘M_ getting punished for it." We continued to get group punishments for her infractions, and she continued to be apathetic about it. Eventually, the only way we could get her punished was to start blading her as a course. She ended up getting punished individually, and learned her lesson.

That girl is a perfect example of a time when collective punishment did not work, but I do think that it‘s a great idea, for the vast majority of the time. I think any punishment should be fair and appropriate, and teach them a lesson about what they did.

I don‘t think corporal punishment (as in hitting/beating a troop, NOT as in doing PT or something physical) is warranted, and I would have a hard time finding it justifiable in any given situation. Yes, there are times when I have seen someone screw up badly enough that you‘d like to smack them upside the head, but I think that to give in to that shows your failure as a leader.

My two cents.


----------



## meni0n (18 Feb 2004)

What we usually had was, if a troop screwed up and he was doing push ups, everyone just joined him in doing pushups. What kind of buddies just stand there and watch you do pushups ?


----------



## Pikache (18 Feb 2004)

I think this thread belongs more into the general discussion forum.   

Interesting stuff.


----------

