# Bringing 'Em Back or Not?  (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)



## The Bread Guy

Bringing it back to Canada ...

August 2014:  _*"Gregory and Collin Gordon, Calgary brothers, join ranks of Canadians fighting for ISIS"*_
December 2014:  _*"Calgary brothers killed while fighting for ISIS"*_
July 2016:  ISIS's Info-machine shares its version of these guys' journey (attached - also downloadable from non-terrorist site here) - full issue of latest ISIS propaganda sheet vieawable at non-terrorist page here - with thanks to the Jihadology blog for sharing the magazine
Remember where you read it first!


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## jollyjacktar

Somebody's heard about the Liberal welcome wagon for the nicest ISIS.   :nod:

That's because Britons don't want him.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/jihadi-jack-isis-consular-1.4526882


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## Kat Stevens

Let the bastard rot.


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## Cloud Cover

Come on, we all know they will let him in eventually either by political decision or lawsuit coercion. He might have to wait until after the next election, but he will get in unless YPG does the world a favour ...


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## jollyjacktar

A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian...here's your 10.5 cha ching


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## Jarnhamar

If he brings some kids with him he'll be entitled to $3600 a month.

Might as well top it off and get him a job at Veterans Affairs lol


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## jollyjacktar

Or the PMO


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## Jarnhamar

Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.


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## Cloud Cover

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If he brings some kids with him he'll be entitled to $3600 a month.


That's just plain disgusting.


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## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.



F**k him. Let him rot


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## brihard

Legally, if he is a Canadian citizen, the government has no right or authority to prevent him from re-entering the country should he eventually gain his freedom. _But_, they are also under no obligation to lift a finger to try to get him out of jail or to pay his way back here either. I hope that they do not.


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## pbi

He made a decision. Let him live by it. And thus a message to anybody else who gets similar ideas.


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## Jarnhamar

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/jihadi-jack-letts-syria-1.4385163

His parents sound like real winners.  The article tries to paint this kid like a victim, typical.


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## Primus

Trudeau will have poetry ready for him to feel less inclined to kill infidels.  

On a side note, what’s with almost every news outlet posting pics of him as a kid? The attempts to get the public to feel sorry for him by twisting the narrative is pretty ****ed up.


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## Ciskman

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Just remember that returning ISIS members 'are a powerful voice'.



You mean "returning foreign terrorist travelers" are a powerful voice.


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## EOO

I will like to see the issue through objective lenses. Is Jihadi Jack a Canadian? if the answer is yes, Canada can have him back with high priority surveillance put on him as part of the condition of having him back. 

He must be willing to give something in exchange for his acceptance back into the country. I will rather that Canada has ears and eyes on these guys than playing politics.


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## Jarnhamar

EOO said:
			
		

> I will like to see the issue through objective lenses. Is Jihadi Jack a Canadian? if the answer is yes, Canada can have him back with high priority surveillance put on him as part of the condition of having him back.



He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?


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## Teager

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?



I think that's what the British are saying since he's also Canadian.


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## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> He's also a British citizen. Can we legally say piss off since he had another option?



Nope. Again, we need do nothing whatsoever to help him get here, but if he manages to show up at a port of entry, he’s allowed in, full stop. The right of a citizen to enter, remain in or leave Canada is written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.


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## Journeyman

Brihard said:
			
		

> ....written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.


Since some people wring their hands at the whole 'terrorist hunting, extrajudicial killing' issue.... like it's a bad thing.  


    
  ^^^
this means "*not serious*"  (for those who require it be spelled out)


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## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> Nope. Again, we need do nothing whatsoever to help him get here, but if he manages to show up at a port of entry, he’s allowed in, full stop. The right of a citizen to enter, remain in or leave Canada is written right into the charter and there’s no way around that at all.



Ah, right. Thank you.  We did stop some Canadian citizens from leaving Canada to join ISIS though didn't we? Guessing that's some kind of clause for citizens having a right to leave the country or something?


In any case this guy seems like a POS and hopefully he remains right where he is. His parents are either super stupid or closet ISIS supporters. i suspect the latter. As EOO sagely points out the blatant attempts to humanize and victimize Jihadi Jack with child pictures is quite obvious.


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## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Ah, right. Thank you.  We did stop some Canadian citizens from leaving Canada to join ISIS though didn't we? Guessing that's some kind of clause for citizens having a right to leave the country or something?
> 
> 
> In any case this guy seems like a POS and hopefully he remains right where he is. His parents are either super stupid or closet ISIS supporters. i suspect the latter. As EOO sagely points out the blatant attempts to humanize and victimize Jihadi Jack with child pictures is quite obvious.



Passport revocation. Nothing stops them getting on a boat or going for a swim, but it makes it damned hard to leave the country when you can’y Enter the US or board an international flight.


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## FJAG

Let me throw in a few comments while stating that I'm far from an expert on this topic.

The problem with this guy, as far as I can glean from the news and the web, is that he was never in Canada. He was born in the UK to a Canadian father and Brit mother and lived all of his life in the UK until he left Oxford to wander around Syria.

His passport has nothing to do with being a Canadian citizen (while I do not know for sure, I suspect he doesn't even have a Canadian one). His status is based on being the first generation descendant of a Canadian citizen. 

Much, if not all, of the legislation under the Combating Terrorism Act (which has been incorporated in Part II.1 of the Criminal Code) creates offences relating to "everyone who leaves or attempts to leave Canada for the purpose of . . . etc etc" That wouldn't apply in these circumstances.

There are terrorist offences over which Canada claims extra-territorial jurisdiction but they require actual proof that the listed offence was committed. My guess is that because of the circumstances that such clear evidence of him having committed an offence over which Canada can claim such jurisdiction will be hard to come by and that if we do help him out to come here he will escape any consequences. 

Considering the stance that the Liberals have taken with respect to reversing prior legislation facilitating stripping citizenship from persons with dual citizenship in certain circumstances they are now between a rock and a hard place. 

Personally I believe they deserve to be there. The problem is that there is probably a vocal constituency of the Liberals who feel that bringing this ******* to Canada is the right thing to do. Hopefully they'll be in a decreasing minority.

 :cheers:


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## OldSolduer

Well put FJAG.

I think everyone knows my feelings on terrorists.


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## brihard

Agreed. Extremely well put, and I agree fully. I unfortunately find myself sometimes at odds with my own beliefs and desires on this subject, versus my respect for the rule of law and my absolute belief that it must be diligently upheld.


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## a_majoor

There is a spirit as well as the letter of the law....

If we can't openly say "no" then simply remain silent and ignore his pleas.


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## FSTO

According to Murray Brewster's twitter, Canadian Diplomats are attempting to contact our the UK's misguided yute.


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## jollyjacktar

I hope the Kurds tell them to go pound sand.


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## Cloud Cover

Well thats just it, they are "holding" him, so hold a "trial" and do the right thing...


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## Loachman

https://www.thelocal.se/20180209/kurds-demand-sweden-take-back-its-is-fighters

“The second thing is that if they have committed crimes where they are, they should be put in front of a court there, where there is a possibility of investigating them.” 

He denied that Sweden was trying to duck the foreign fighters issue. 

“What I want is for people who have committed crimes to face justice in some way or another,” he said.

“It’s important that we can send the signal that if you go to another country to join a terrorist sect and carry out terrible violent acts, that you risk punishment.” 

He warned that Sweden had yet to criminalise involvement in a terrorist organisation, making it hard to punish Isis fighters solely for their allegiance to the group. 

“Those people have carried out a long list of crimes there, like murder, kidnapping, rape, arson. It’s always more effective to investigate that sort of thing right where it happened.”


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## tomahawk6

Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.


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## jollyjacktar

Sadly, not with us.


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## Kat Stevens

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.



Here they get 10.5 mil and a free ipad.


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## Jarnhamar

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Here they get 10.5 mil and a free ipad.



But at least it wasn't 15 million right? We sure dodged a bullet


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## Cloud Cover

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Captured foreign fighters face the death penalty.


In Sweden? I hope  the IKEA folding kitchen guillotine does more than slice carrots!


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## Jarnhamar

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> In Sweden? I hope  the IKEA folding kitchen guillotine does more than slice carrots!



Have you read about what's going on in Sweden?



> Authorities in Sweden are prosecuting a 70-year-old woman for a hate crime.
> 
> Her alleged crime? She wrote on Facebook that she saw migrants defecating in the streets and setting fire to cars.


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## Cloud Cover

Coming soon to a street near you...


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## Jarnhamar

Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face


*fixed link
https://globalnews.ca/news/4526514/canadian-isis-caught-in-turkey/


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## Old Sweat

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face
> 
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/exclusive-canadian-member-of-islamic-state-caught-but-it’s-unclear-what-charges-he-might-face/ar-BBO6WO6



Based on our past performances, a formal apology and a $10.5 million award would be not too far out of line.


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## OldSolduer

Maybe sent to a healing lodge to cure him of bad practices.


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## Kat Stevens

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Canadian member of Islamic State caught, but it’s unclear what charges he might face
> 
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/exclusive-canadian-member-of-islamic-state-caught-but-it’s-unclear-what-charges-he-might-face/ar-BBO6WO6



No charges, room service and pay-per-view will be complimentary.


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## Jarnhamar

> A high-profile Canadian member of the so-called Islamic State has been caught while attempting to return to Canada, Global News has confirmed.
> 
> Muhammad Ali, 28, who left Toronto in 2014 to join ISIS, was captured by Kurdish forces as he tried to flee from Syria to Turkey.
> 
> Global News interviewed Ali at a makeshift prison where he is being held by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces, or SDF, the military alliance that controls northeast Syria.
> 
> The former Ryerson University student, who went by Abu Turaab Al-Kanadi, was taken into custody four months ago in Ras al-Ayn, on the Turkish border.
> 
> At the time, he was with his Canadian wife, former Vancouver resident Rida Jabbar, and their two children, both born in Syria.
> 
> His family is being detained at a camp not far from the prison where Kurdish, American and British officials have been interrogating Ali.
> 
> * His capture is significant because, aside from serving as a sniper, Ali  used social media to encourage others to join ISIS and conduct terrorist attacks .*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, according to PM Trudeau, ISIS fighters can be “an extraordinarily powerful voice” in Canada...


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## Jarnhamar

Apparently our government (allegedly) proactively reached out to British ISIS fighter of some norioty, Jihadi Jack.



> During question period on Tuesday, Conservative Opposition Leader Andrew Scheer asked Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to explain why Canadian officials had reached out to a British 22-year-old with Canadian citizenship who is imprisoned by Kurdish forces in Syria.
> 
> “This government proactively reached out to try to bring this individual, who has fought with a terrorist organization, back to Canada. They took it upon themselves to reach out to bring this individual to Canada, why?” Scheer demanded.
> 
> Trudeau responded to Scheer’s questions broadly, stating that his government takes “with the utmost seriousness, the threats posed by travelling extremists.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/4557701/andrew-scheer-trudeau-jihadi-jack/amp/


The quote above doesn't do Trudeau's response justice. You really need to see a clip from said question period to see how skilled Trudeau is becoming at deflection.


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## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Apparently our government (allegedly) proactively reached out to British ISIS fighter of some norioty, Jihadi Jack.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/4557701/andrew-scheer-trudeau-jihadi-jack/amp/
> 
> 
> The quote above doesn't do Trudeau's response justice. You really need to see a clip from said question period to see how skilled Trudeau is becoming at deflection.



I think we should gift the returning fighters to the Yazidis. Justice and diplomacy all at once.


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## ontheedge

As much as I’m not a fan of Trudeau, seems like he handled this one correctly. There is obviously an intelligent gathering benefit from having a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=ontheedge] a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. [/QUOTE] 
Am I missing something here? 



> And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.



Lol no thanks. Let's not bring more terrorists into Canada.


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## NavyShooter

We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...


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## blacktriangle

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...



If feeding them to crocodiles isn’t an option, I guess I’d settle for Canada doing them with a .50


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## Humphrey Bogart

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...



I can think of a few things we could use to communicate with him:


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## daftandbarmy

I think Iraq has set the standard for 'severity and celerity', and gender neutrality, here:


'They deserve no mercy': Iraq deals briskly with accused 'women of Isis' 

A Baghdad court has sentenced more than 40 foreign women to death after 10-minute hearings

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/22/they-deserve-no-mercy-iraq-deals-briskly-with-accused-women-of-isis


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## BurnDoctor

I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.

Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.

Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.

Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.

Time to go have a rage workout.


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## Colin Parkinson

They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.


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## blacktriangle

Colin P said:
			
		

> They can return to Canada, once they have been cleared of wrong doing in the country they committed the crime in or have served their sentence out.



As long as we don’t repatriate their remains after their death sentences. 

Ramp ceremonies are for soldiers, not murderers and rapists.


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## Cloud Cover

If the plane is on the ground, then yes.


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## ontheedge

There was an incredible podcast called Caliphate. Ten part series or something. Went into great detail and interviews with former ISIS Canadian. Highly recommend this podcast for folks interested in the subject. Major takeaway:  proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.


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## daftandbarmy

BurnDoctor said:
			
		

> I feel this is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
> 
> For one, these cases would seem to meet the Criminal Code of Canada definition of treason; namely someone holding Canadian citizenship taking up arms against Canada or her allies. Yet we've heard no talk of prosecuting these "foreign fighters" or "travelling extremists", as the Government alternately calls them.
> 
> Secondly, their atrocities are not compatible with coexisting in civilized society.
> 
> Finally, having these individuals in Canada cheapens the citizenship of law-abiding Canadians, cheapens the service of CF members by essentially having the government in the role of fifth columnists, aiding and abetting the enemy, and dishonours the memory of CF members killed fighting extremism overseas. Presumeably an implicit reason for the effort in Afghanistan (in addition to the NATO obligation, and denying Afghanistan as a safe haven to extremists) was to avoid fighting extremists here by doing it  there. Why do that if we just turn around and let the enemy back? Why have Op Impact if we just welcome the enemy back, one of whom (M. Ali) has said that he no longer considers himself Canadian? This sickens me, and I know I can't be the only one.
> 
> Yes, there are some legal considerations - I get that - but if Trudeau can drag his feet on TMX and get nothing done, he could ld drag his feet on this too, and they could stay abroad indefinitely.
> 
> Time to go have a rage workout.



The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they? 


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/trudeau-defends-apology-and-105-million-payment-to-omar-khadr/article35623594/


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## Sub_Guy

ontheedge said:
			
		

> proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.



Am I missing something?  Guy leaves Canada to join ISIS and we are worried about Canadian criminal justice standards.

Most of us on here are willing to put our lives on the line to defend the rights freedoms of Canadians and this mother fucker leaves to join an organization that throws people off buildings because of their sexual preference.   

He made his choice, he can live with it.    Fuck him.


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## Eye In The Sky

ontheedge said:
			
		

> As much as I’m not a fan of Trudeau, seems like he handled this one correctly. There is obviously an intelligent gathering benefit from having a former extremist spy for Canada within Canada. And that if Jack starts causing trouble we have the tools to watch him closely.



CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion.  They worked hard over there to take individuals like this out;  they (ISIS) would not have given *any* quarter to Coalition/MESF forces who they got their hands on.  They proved this when they burned Jordanian pilot Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh alive in a cage and then smashed his charred corpse into the ground with a front-end loader.

Warning:  Extremely Graphic Video:  ISIS Burns Hostage Alive:  if you're interested, the cage on fire stuff starts at about 16:16, if your stomach is strong enough to see the horror this Officer suffered at his end.

Adult decisions come with adult consequences.  I feel no sorrow for any of them; neither would you if you knew some of the things that happened over there.  Do you _really_ want this piece of shit and his kind in your backyard, because if they decided to fry you and yours, the Canadian Legal System would be able to do very little to stop them, if they were already in your backyard.  Think about it.  These people do not fear 'a legal system' and 'court ordered restrictions' and other bullshit like that.

RIP Lt.


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## Jarnhamar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> CAF SOF and Aircrew who served in that theatre might not agree with this opinion.



Neither would the Canadian soldier who was murdered 4 years ago today on Parliament Hill.


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## blacktriangle

I'd say almost everyone that conducted ops/collected Int on IMPACT knows how sick and ruthless these monsters are. They conduct genocide, enslave young girls, torture/execute/mutilate prisoners...

We could have done a lot more to kill these assholes while they were over there. Hands were tied. 

A lot of the evidence against these assholes will likely never see the light of day. So they will come back, and walk our streets freely - likely with the help of the Canadian taxpayer. 

They are guilty of treason full stop. Any politician, lawyer, or bureaucrat that disagrees is just as guilty - IMO. BZ to the other countries hunting these guys down still, and BZ to the Iraqis (flawed as they are) for giving them the "trials" they deserve. 

 :2c:


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## Kokanee

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The Trudeau government just set the benchmark for cases like this, by making Omar Khadr a multi-milionaire, didn't they? ...



There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.

So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.


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## daftandbarmy

Kokanee said:
			
		

> There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.
> 
> So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.



To us, there is a difference. To them, not so much.


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## Journeyman

Kokanee said:
			
		

> One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands.....


While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay."  

The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.

And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.

     *Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib) *


And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:


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## Kokanee

Journeyman said:
			
		

> While the fatherhood skills clearly weren't up to the level expected of Victoria Park & Eglington's finest citizens in Toronto, the rationale for the payout was the Supreme Court's unanimous ruling that found Khadr's human rights were being violated at Guantanamo Bay."
> 
> The father was irrelevant;  Khadr could have been with al-Qaeda, the Shriners, or the Boy Scouts -- the slap was directed solely at the American's extrajudicial processes.
> 
> And to stoke the fires... while I disagree with the amount, and that Canada paid it and not the US (which, I suspect, was tied to CSIS involvement), I have absolutely no heartache with the thought process behind it.
> 
> *Gitmo is wrong   (as was Abu Ghraib) *
> 
> 
> And for anyone wringing hands about child soldiers, let's see what comes out of Mali.    :not-again:



agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.


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## PuckChaser

Kokanee said:
			
		

> agreed, my post was more about how the OP equated Mr.khadr to a terrorist.



He is a terrorist. He admitted it. To be honest, I wasn't fond of the criminal charges thing. Those pers captured on the battlefield could have just been treated as POWs and held until cessation of hostilities. Then we wouldn't have to worry about $10.5M payout, or ever seeing him walk free again.


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## Eye In The Sky

Kokanee said:
			
		

> There is an extreme difference in these cases. One was the case of a young boy brought to a warzone against his will by his father, a rifle thrust into his hands. The other are cases of ADULTS knowingly travelling to that part of the world to join ISIS and who carried out brutal and reprehensible WARCRIMES, for which they absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law.
> 
> So to recap, child soldier vs ADULTS. There is a huge difference.



Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?

Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition).  

Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').


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## ModlrMike

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?
> 
> Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition).
> 
> Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').



Not that I understand the LOAC better than you, but I would agree that the above actions constitute crimes against humanity at the very least. Coupled with their other actions such as perfidy, they are broadly classed as war crimes.


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## Fishbone Jones

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?
> 
> Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition).
> 
> Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').



They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
 :2c:


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## FJAG

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Question for those who understand the LOAC better than I do;  are the atrocities committed by ISIS considered war crimes (in the broad sense) or would they be breeches of international laws and / or crimes against humanity?
> 
> Throwing unarmed civilians off buildings, executing women and childen, etc were actions taken during the conflict but not directed towards the 'opposing foce' (Iraq as a nation state, and MESF forces as part of a Coalition).
> 
> Just wondering, from a legal standpoint, which category their actions fall under (with a general understanding that crimes against humanity can fall under the broad definition 'war cime').



To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.

As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.

For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:

https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State

Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.

Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.

See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25

The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.

 :cheers:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
> :2c:



My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.

I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.

I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...

How ISIS Came To Be

Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

FJAG said:
			
		

> To make a long story short, the acts by IS and it's members--depending on which ones you look at--fall within several categories namely: International Humanitarian Law; International Criminal Law; International Human Rights Law; and/or Customary International Law.
> 
> As with much of this law, enforcement is sometimes not easy and sometimes impossible.
> 
> For one discussion on the topic, see the Geneva Centre for Security Policy's paper "Does International Law Apply To The Islamic State?" which can be read and/or downloaded from here:
> 
> https://www.gcsp.ch/News-Knowledge/Publications/Does-International-Law-Apply-to-the-Islamic-State
> 
> Please note that this is but one opinion. There are numerous scholarly and not-so-scholarly opinions/papers on the subject.
> 
> Note as well that Part II.1 of the Criminal Code deals with Terrorism.
> 
> See here: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-11.html#h-25
> 
> The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.
> 
> :cheers:



Thanks for that!


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> They've been throwing people off of buildings and killing men, women and children under sharia and religion for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. They've been invading each other just as long. Nobody seemed to worry about crimes against humanity or LOAC then. I see them acting no different now. It's the information age. We just know more about them and still wouldn't care, except we got involved in their gang wars. Now it's affecting us and we want to try use our laws to stop them? They follow a higher (in their minds) calling and they only respect one law and it's not ours. I don't think they are listening and if they are, they don't care. You are not going to deal with this in international courts under any civilized law.
> :2c:



I tend to agree with you...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Journeyman said:
			
		

> *Abu Ghraib) *



The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal fuck-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".


----------



## daftandbarmy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The "Center of Excellence" for the insurgency.  A follow-on royal frig-up of the sweep-nets...and (one of several major) contributing factors/events that lead to ISIS "rising up".



When it comes to counter-insurgency, all Armies seem to need to learn the hard way, sadly, like Internment in NI in the 1970s, which resulted in a huge set of unintended consequences:

'Historians generally view the period of internment as inflaming sectarian tensions in Northern Ireland, while failing in its goal of arresting key members of the IRA. Many of the people arrested had no links whatsoever with the IRA, but their names appeared on the list of those to be arrested through bungling and incompetence. The list's lack of reliability and the arrests that followed, complemented by reports of internees being abused far in excess of the usual state violence, led to more nationalists identifying with the IRA and losing hope in non-violent methods. After Operation Demetrius, recruits came forward in huge numbers to join the Provisional and Official wings of the IRA. Internment also led to a sharp increase in violence. In the eight months before the operation, there were 34 conflict-related deaths in Northern Ireland. In the four months following it, 140 were killed.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My question was more related to "JIhad Jack" and what his status would be IRT International and Canadian Law.
> 
> I do, however, agree with your post.  They (ISIS) came on strong and fast...to the embarrassment of both the governments of Iraq..and the USA.
> 
> I still suggest these documentaries for "basic information" to those who don't really *get* where/why ISIS sprang into existence.  Not suggesting they're complete and cover all aspects...
> 
> How ISIS Came To Be
> 
> Gang wars...I don't like that analogy, personally, but that is because I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:



Many of us have been in much closer contact with them than watching/reporting. Matter of perspective I guess, not a pissing contest.


----------



## brihard

FJAG said:
			
		

> The laws here are severely hampered by the need to recover sufficient evidence from a chaotic war zone to lead to a successful prosecution.
> 
> :cheers:



Yup, this. There is definitely no lack of thirst to investigate or prosecute this at any level, whether within the investigative teams, the police/intelligence services as a whole, the crown prosecutors' offices, or within the government / cabinet / PMO. Frnakly I'm sure our government would love nothing better right now than a couple of slam dunk prosecutions of Daesh returnees, because they quite rightly fear the impact this issue will have on the election.

We are, in the end, a nation ruled by law, however. I as a police officer am constrained in my job by our system of laws and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms - and quite rightly so! It's correct and appropriate than in a free society I, as an agent of the state possessed of considerable coercive powers, should have to justify my actions. If I want to investigate someone - just like any of you - who may be driving drunk, or accused of assault, dealing drugs, or making threats or committing a fraud or what have you - there are things that might make my job potentially easier but that the law doesn't allow me to do because they would trample your rights. I cannot make you confess to a crime, I generally can't force my way into your home and arbitrarily look for evidence, I can't just take your phone off you and have it searched for evidence without a warrant granted by a judge based on my grounds outlining a reasonable suspicion of an offense. I cannot arbitrarily listen in on your phone calls or seize and analyze your computer. We have mechanisms to do all these things but we have the judiciary as an oversight. I cannot burn certain investigative techniques in court proceedings. I cannot disclose the identity of confidential informants whose lives may be at risk from retribution by criminals. And these are all extraordinary simplistic comparisons in the realm of straight criminal investigations. Add international intelligence gathering and sharing arrangements into the picture, and holy hell does it get tough to use information. There is a whole sector within our national security infrastructure that wrestles with taking security intelligence (e.g., from CSIS, CSE, or foreign allied agencies) and handing off clean tidbits to the RCMP to say 'we can't tell you why, but look at this guy' and to try to build prosecutable criminal cases from there.

On the face of it it's easy to say 'Well OK, but drunk driver versus ISIS terrorist Come on, be reasonable". Yup. We can always pick two examples far removed from each other for comparison. Where it gets much harder is trying to discern the truth when someone purportedly travels overseas to a contested area to visit family, or to engage in humanitarian work, or what have you, and then on the flip side is accused of acts of terrorism. Are they giving money to Daesh, or to a legitimate charity? Might they be blissfully unaware of the difference? Where do we draw the line between combatants that are on the 'good guy' side and those that are not in such a conflict?

All that said- I'm by no means coming to the defense of these Daeshbags. I think among the first steps in effective solutions include better joint targeting and intelligence sharing, precision munitions, and where applicable sound application of the principles of marksmanship. We don't need to worry about prosecuting those dead as combatants on the battlefield. But one way or another we have to face the facts that some will return, and that the waters in many cases will be extremely muddied. It's very easy indeed to say all these people should be investigated, charged, convicted, and thrown in jail. I'm absolutely with everyone else on that part of the principle of this thing, for sure. But the rule of law matters, it's what keeps us the good guys and protects all of you from the dumb crap I could otherwise do in the course of efforts to enforce the law, and whether we like it or not those same protections do not end at some arbitrary line in the sand. I wish things were easier than this, but they're not.


----------



## blacktriangle

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I spent a somewhat significant amount of time in that theatre "watching/reporting".  Some nights...your memory and conscience aren't your best friend.   :2c:


----------



## blacktriangle

Good post Brihard. You are correct (unfortunately) in so many ways, but it also shows why as a country we are weak and vulnerable. 

We did have a choice to do more to kill these guys over there. Now we will suffer. 

As for Jihadi Jack...you gotta love the article where it shows a picture of him doing the ISIS salute, and the CBC caption mentions his Dad saying he went there to help refugees:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-isis-jihadi-jack-1.4868495

WHAT A JOKE!

I threw my bling from IMPACT into a bin somewhere. I've had to resist doing worse. Disgusted I wasted some of the best years of my life on it. 

 :not-again:


----------



## YZT580

If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## dapaterson

YZT580 said:
			
		

> If they had left Harper's law alone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Join a terrorist group, don't bother trying to come back because you are no longer a citizen.  Nothing wrong with that.



Except that was not the law.


----------



## OldSolduer

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> We should be reaching out to him with an AMAX that's 1/2 inch in diameter...



Damn rights. 3540 or bust.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I totally believe our law enforcement people are onboard and don't want these POS in our country but the vibes our government is putting out just doesn't reflect that. Quite the opposite. They seem more about welcoming these wayward and lost souls in the name of diversity and inclusion. 

Mass graves are still being discovered, ISIS is still bombing people (6dead 40 injured yesterday), ISIS is still kidnapping and murdering people.  Even if we don't have video evidence of someone committing a crime let's not take the risk and give people who even just "joined ISIS" a refuge in our country. I'm comfortable and happy to keep them out and if we're forced to allow them to come here then I think them being caught with Isis or in the vicinity of is enough grounds to nail them with terrorism charges.


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Except that was not the law.



Exactly. If we don't like this stuff happening, then we need to change our laws. 

However, I've seen enough terrorists receive social services benefits from the country that is fighting against them to know that the 'long game' sometimes includes doing what seems basically schizo at the time.


----------



## blacktriangle

I'm willing to bet if any vigilante justice happens to one of these assclowns that the gov would direct more resources to convicting vigilantes than they spent trying to convict the terrorists.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Useful article:



> Canada’s Foreign Fighter Problem is No Surprise
> https://www.lawfareblog.com/canadas-foreign-fighter-problem-no-surprise



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## ontheedge

My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.


----------



## brihard

ontheedge said:
			
		

> My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.



Infantry here. What point is it that you’re making?


----------



## garb811

ontheedge said:
			
		

> My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.


Ontheedge:  I get it.  You're new and have a million questions and are full of what we refer to as piss and vinegar.  But at this point I'm going to advise you to take a few steps back and stop making so many posts based on assumptions.  You really aren't doing yourself a lot of favours right now and you are going to learn a lot more by letting some of these threads play out naturally than you will by what you are doing.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

ontheedge said:
			
		

> My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.



I’d caution you, as you’re an individual with no experience as a CAF member, to be more diplomatic and less judgemental with your thoughts towards how you perceive things are being done in certain areas. This was a polite suggestion, as some of your posts can be interpreted negatively.


----------



## OldSolduer

ontheedge said:
			
		

> My gosh reading how Justice is dispensed amongst you infantry folk....This is why we have a JAG.



What’s your point? 

Maybe sometimes tough people dispense controlled armed violence on those our government has deemed enemies. Got a problem with that?
Infantry for over 35 years here.


----------



## ontheedge

I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Okay folks, let’s move on with the discussion. The user was inadvertently made aware of his tone by two DS posting the same advisement at the same time, plus he’s had the chance to now view how his comments were received. Good learning opportunity, now time to get back on track.

Staff


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Specifically with regard to the topic of returning ISIS fighter and supporters returning to Canada, the more efficiently the infantry and others are permitted to do their job in the battle space, the less fighting in the courtrooms lawyers will have to do.

IF the target is legit and the *targeting process is followed (I won't speak to 'efficiency and timeliness' of that process sometimes  :), I don't see a problem.  Unfortunately, this Jihad Jack never ended up in someone's crosshairs so here we are debating his disposition and of those like him.

*OnTheEdge,  you'll hopefully be pleasantly surprised that Legal Officers are involved in the targeting/engagement "stuff" was well with advising on ROEs, and advising Commanders on strike/no-strike decisions.


----------



## OldSolduer

ontheedge said:
			
		

> I was referring mostly to the AMAX comment and the support it got.  I presume it was in jest as was my comment.



Oh yes in jest. This a??clown jihadi might be responsible for the deaths of a number of innocent people. 
By all means let’s bring the poor misunderstood urchin to Canada to cure him of his bad practices.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.

Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.



> A B.C. man whose Facebook posts promoted ISIS and praised lone wolf terrorist attacks has been ordered deported from Canada.
> 
> The Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada has ruled that Othman Hamdan of Fort St. John is a "danger to the security of Canada" and is therefore inadmissible.
> 
> "While Mr. Hamdan has no history of violence, he has praised lone wolf attacks, actively promoted the Islamic State, disseminated instructions on how to commit attacks and seems fascinated with the extreme violence of the Islamic State demonstrated by possessing Islamic State videos depicting gruesome murders," IRB member Marc Tessler wrote in an Oct. 18 decision.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE


----------



## kratz

Thank you Jarnhamar.

"It's easy to find fault, 
It's more challenging to find agreement."
- Unknown

Our system can work.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Remember Pamir Hakimzadah mentioned here?

This from Global via Twitter ...


> Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced Thursday to 6 months for trying to join ISIS, in addition to the time he has spent in custody since his June 2016 arrest ... He will be eligible for parole in 3 months. Upon release he must undergo religious counselling and stay away from terror supporters and materials ... Because he pleaded guilty, little was publicly aired about the case, but Global News has obtained a summary of the investigation, and it raises questions. The story: ... How does a terrorism offence with a 10-year maximum become 3 months? Sentenced imposed: 4 yrs, 1 mos. Pretrial custody: 792 days x 1.5=3 years, 3 months credit. Days jail was on lockdown: 250=four months credit. Remaining sentence=6 months x .5 parole eligibility Total: 3 mos. ... But the judge did impose 3 years probation with several conditions: - religious counseling, - psychotherapy, - interview w/probation officer every 6 months on effects of de-radicalization, - no passport, weapons, terror literature etc...



As for the other person mentioned in the above-linked post, Rehab Dughmosh, she got 7 years earlier this month for trying to head to ISIS country and for an attack in a Scarborough Canadian Tire.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A little more from the Public Prosecution Service of Canada ...


> Today in the Ontario Superior Court, Pamir Hakimzadah was sentenced to six months in jail in addition to three years and seven months credit for the time he has already spent in custody after pleading guilty earlier this month to leaving Canada to participate in the activity of a terrorist group, contrary to section 83.181 of the Criminal Code.He also receivedthree years of probation requiring adherence to a deradicalization program.
> 
> On October 22, 2014, Mr. Hakimzadah left Canada and travelled to Istanbul, Turkey with the intention of entering Syria to join ISIS. He was detained by Turkish officials before he could enter Syria and was deported back to Canada. He was subsequently charged with the offence following an RCMP investigation.
> 
> According to the agreed statement of facts, Mr. Hakimzadah had exhibited increasingly radical Islamic beliefs prior to his departure, speaking in favour of, or in defence of ISIS. He viewed online ISIS videos and posts, as well as a website on how to get into Syria ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Another couple of Canadian dual citizens identified as "guests" of Kurdish forces in Syria ...


> ... Safraz Ali, a 39-year-old dual Trinidadian and Canadian citizen, says he was recruited by fellow Trinidadians and joined the Islamic State in 2015 “to help the Syrian people.” He explained, “I didn’t seek out [IS execution] videos. I was against all of that. They sent me to Iraq to fight. I refused and fled to Syria on a bus. I had trauma training. I would go out after coalition bombings and pick up wounded children and take them to the hospital.” He ended up in Al Bab, where “people were so kind they would give you the shirts off their backs.” After Turkish troops captured the town in 2016 he moved on to Raqqa. “People were much harsher, crueler there.”
> 
> Ali is rail thin. His eyes are glazed. He seems weak. “I have terminal Crohn’s disease,” he said. “They don’t have proper medicine here. I have rectal bleeding, dizzy spells and blurry vision.” He clutches an inhaler in his hand. “Asthma,” he explains. He says he is scared but far more concerned for his wife. It emerges that he is married to Kimberley Gwen Polman, 46, a dual US and Canadian citizen he met in Raqqa who was profiled by the _New York Times_.
> 
> They were married in 2016 and made plans to flee together soon after. They were in touch with Polman’s family and a Canadian official who handled such cases, he claimed. The pair was ratted out by spies and briefly imprisoned in Raqqa and continued to plot their escape once they were freed. “We led the life of fugitives,” he said, describing a harrowing odyssey that took the couple from Raqqa to Mayadeen and then Hajin. They finally turned themselves over to SDF forces a little over a month ago. “We desperately wanted to have children. Kimberley had five miscarriages,” he said. “I spend all my time thinking about my wife.”
> 
> I feel sorry for him and offer reasons he might have joined the Islamic State. His father, a Christian, and his mother, a Muslim, were divorced. Had he had a rough childhood? His Gandhi-like demeanor evaporates. “You are psychologically profiling me,” he said with a cold, hard look. It's time to end the conversation. The minder handcuffs Ali and leads him away.



I'll also slowly bring in other posts/threads here to offer up a "one-stop window" of open-source info on Canadians playing on the ISIS team.  I'll leave the threads dealing with specific, individual court proceedings stand alone for now.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.
> 
> Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE



His appeal ended up in his favour so far despite this strong statement by the Federal Court Judge:
“[1]  Mr. Hamdan is an unmitigated liar. One must wonder if he has uttered one truthful word since he came to Canada in 2002. His refugee claim was accepted in 2004. The basis thereof was that he had converted to Christianity from Islam and faced a serious risk of persecution should he be returned to Jordan.”  

...

“[17]  Although the evidence in this case may be somewhat scanty, there is some evidence to suggest that a misrepresentation had indeed taken place. In context, scanty evidence can support an inference to find as a fact that an event actually occurred (Whirlpool Inc. v Camco Inc., 2000 SCC 67 (CanLII), [2000] 2 SCR 1067. The only evidence from Mr. Hamdan was his denial. The record clearly shows that his word is not to be trusted so that the presumption he is telling the truth is rebutted (Maldonado v. Canada (M.E.I.), [1980] 2 FC 302 (C.A.)).
[18]  For these reasons, judicial review is allowed and the matter is referred back to the IRB for redetermination before a new member, both with respect to religion and criminality.”

His misrepresentation: he may be a drug dealer at one time, and since Hamas frowns on wealth created by illegal acts not controlled by them, his life might be at risk in Jordan.


	Canada (Citizenship and Immigration) v. Hamdan, 2018 FC 1177 (CanLII), <http://canlii.ca/t/hw8gh>, retrieved on 2019-03-17

_- mod edit to make link work -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

First, Russia flies home children (and some women) from IRQ after being part of Daesh/ISIS ...


> Zalina Gabibulayeva has had five children, four husbands and two jail sentences. All her spouses were Islamist militants who are either dead or in prison, the last two in Syria, where she was among hundreds of women stranded by the war before officials brought her back to Russia.
> 
> “I thank God every day that we are here,” Gabibulayeva, 37, said by phone from Grozny, the capital of Russia’s mostly Muslim republic of Chechnya, where she and her children receive about 40,000 rubles ($610) per month in state welfare payments.
> 
> While President Vladimir Putin is renowned for his ruthless approach to terrorists — once vowing to “waste them in the outhouse” — Russia has been more willing than many Western nations to help women and children linked with Islamic State fighters to return home from the Middle East. He’s explained the motivation by saying children didn’t choose to go to the conflict zone “and we have no right to leave them there.”
> 
> Nearly 100 family members of jihadists in Syria and Iraq were repatriated in late 2017 before Russia’s intelligence service raised security concerns in a country that’s repeatedly been the target of terrorist attacks. Russia’s experience illustrates challenges facing the U.S. and Europe as they decide how to deal with citizens captured in Syria and Iraq who were part of Islamic State ...


More recent lifts have been kids, but no moms if they're being held by IRQ.

Now, Australia appears to be trying this, too ...


> Australia’s prime minister says his government is working with international aid workers to repatriate three orphaned Australian children of a convicted terrorist from a Syrian refugee camp.
> 
> Prime Minister Scott Morrison said Australia would only help the children of extremists — not adults — return from the war zones of Syria and Iraq.
> 
> Australian Broadcasting Corp. reported the three survivors of former Islamic State group fighter Khaled Sharrouf’s five children contacted their Sydney grandmother Karen Nettleton last month.
> 
> The grandmother travelled to a Syrian refugee camp where the grandchildren aged 17, 16 and 8 have been since they fled the Islamic State group ...



Just throwing this up to show how some countries are handling this one.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit of data culling ....


> A suicide bomber from Calgary strikes near Baghdad. A Windsor man masterminds the torture and killing of foreigners at a Dhaka bakery. Two London, Ont., gunmen take hostages at a gas plant in the Algerian desert.
> 
> Canadian terrorists have killed and injured more than 300 in other countries since 2012, according to figures compiled by Global News that document the victims of so-called extremist travellers.
> 
> Fatal attacks in Algeria, Bangladesh, Bulgaria, Iraq, Russia, Somalia and Syria were attributed to Canadians during that time. An attack in Michigan resulted in no deaths but seriously injured a police officer.
> 
> Citizens of 19 countries were killed in attacks involving Canadian perpetrators, including locals and British, Colombian, French, Indian, Israeli, Italian, Filipino, Japanese, Malaysian, Norwegian, Romanian and U.S. nationals.
> 
> The majority of killings were claimed by the so-called Islamic State, while others were the work of Al Qaeda affiliates and Hezbollah, but attacks by Al Qaeda-aligned groups were more deadly ...


More @ link


----------



## blacktriangle

Maybe if we stopped importing so many terrorists, they wouldn't breed here and become exports? Other countries send SOF in the early morning hours to kill their own citizens that have betrayed them. We take ours back, apologize for allowing them to be radicalized, and then ask them how much money and which of our daughters they would like...

 :2c:


----------



## The Bread Guy

What Sweden's doing ...


> Local authorities in northeastern Syria on Tuesday handed over seven children belonging to members of the so-called Islamic State to a Swedish delegation.
> 
> The transfer was made at the Faysh Khabur border crossing, also known as the “Semalka” crossing, which connects Syria’s northeast with the Kurdistan Region.
> 
> The Swedish delegation met with the foreign relations department in northern and eastern Syria to receive seven children of Swedish nationality whose parents were killed in Syria fighting for the Islamic State, local Kurdish media reported.
> 
> The delegation was received by the Deputy Head of the Department of Foreign Relations in North and East Syria, Sana Deham, and the Director of the Women’s Body for North and East Syria, Rokan Mullah Ibrahim.
> 
> After the children were handed over, an extradition contract was signed. The Swedish delegation then returned to the Kurdistan Region with the children where they are expected to repatriate them to Sweden ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

France's approach ...


> The French government has explicitly refused to bring home jihadists and their wives, but has pledged to bring back their children on a “case-by-case” basis.
> 
> “It’s very likely,” Mrs Parly told the French news channel BFMTV and RMC radio.
> 
> “We are doing everything within our power to repatriate those who have been identified as orphans.”
> 
> Asked why the government was not bringing home all children, not only those who had lost their jihadi parents, she said: “When there are parents, they still have rights over their children. And regarding families being held in camps run by the Syrian Democratic Forces, the Kurds have decided to respect this right.” ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Turkey's latest ....


> Iraq has handed over 188 Turkish children of suspected Islamic State (ISIS) members to Turkey after Ankara said it would help the children return home, judicial officials announced Wednesday.
> 
> The handover took place at Baghdad airport in the presence of representatives from Iraq’s Foreign Ministry, the Turkish Embassy in Baghdad, and the United Nation children’s fund UNICEF.
> 
> An official told Reuters the handover took place on Wednesday.
> 
> “The Central Investigations Court responsible for terror cases and foreign convicts handed the Turkish side 188 children the terrorist Daesh left in Iraq,” said Abdulstar Bayrakdar, spokesperson for Iraq’s High Judicial Council, using the Arabic acronym for ISIS ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest ...


> A so-called Canadian “ISIS bride” who is stuck in a Syrian refugee camp with her newborn baby has been given no indication of coming home, despite the increasingly dangerous living conditions her family is facing.
> 
> Aimee, whose last name CTV News has previously agreed not to reveal, gave birth to her third son Mohammed last week while living among the hundreds of fellow widows of former ISIS fighters in a special section of the al-Hawl refugee camp in eastern Syria.
> 
> Aimee travelled to Syria from Alberta four years ago with her Canadian husband who later died in fighting for ISIS. She later married another fighter, but he was killed as well. Mohammed is her second husband’s son.
> 
> CTV News’ Paul Workman profiled Aimee’s story in February as she pleaded to come home, but since then there has been little action on the part of the Canadian government, while the conditions at the camp have worsened ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

> but since then there has been little action on the part of the Canadian government, while the conditions at the camp have worsened ...



Absolutely no fucks given here.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Absolutely no ****s given here.



Yup. If they're citizens, the government has to let them in at the border. It doesn't need to send them a plane or buy them a ticket.

That said- whether we like it or not, we will continue to grapple with this for years to come. There will be returnees who make it back that we don't have grounds to criminally charge and who, by virtue of being born in Canada or having acquired citizenship honestly and before any radicalization took place, cannot have citizenships revoked nor be removed from the country

Out of those, a portion will be hardcore and probably irredeemable. But some are going to be young fools who really, really screwed up, had their eyes opened, and now realize it. Not unlike those who 'demobilize' from gang life, really. There has to be a plan in place to deal with them; a plan that complies with our laws. I do not envy those who have to craft such policy.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I don't suppose setting up a Trans-Ontario railway project where they can build the railway by hand from Attawapiskat to Lake Winnipeg and live in Gulags Umm camps is doable?  8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest stats from an academic tracking this stuff (source) ...


----------



## brihard

I think the government realizes that, even if they were so inclined, repatriation just before an already difficult election would be politically challenging.


----------



## tomahawk6

Read an article todat about a number of captured French fighters have been sentenced to hang by the Iraqi courts. France doesn't want them back and Iraq doesn't want them either , so …… 

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/iraq-court-sentences-two-french-men-to-death-for-being-isis-fighters-2046783


----------



## The Bread Guy

Let's see how these folks fare ...


> A Kurdish official in northern Syria said Wednesday that local authorities there had transferred eight American women and children captured with other Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) suspects back to the U.S.
> 
> Abdulkarim Omar, a spokesman for the U.S.-allied regional Kurdish leadership in north and east Syria, said the group included two women and six children. He said they were returned at the request of the U.S. government and based on their own desire to return "without any pressure or coercion."
> 
> (...)
> 
> "Several U.S. citizens, including young children, have been safely recovered from Syria and we are assisting them with repatriation to the United States," a U.S. State Department official told CBS News on Wednesday. The official added that the safety of U.S. citizens was the Department's "highest priority," and that it examined every claim of U.S. citizenship by a person in a conflict zone "on a case-by-case basis."
> 
> The official said the U.S. government would "continue to repatriate and, when appropriate, prosecute its citizens" brought home from war zones.
> 
> The State Department was aware of reports of a "small number of U.S. citizens present in camps in northeast Syria," the official said, noting the difficulty of handling such cases due to the lack of U.S. consular services in the country.
> 
> It is the second such repatriation from Syria. Earlier this year, an American woman and four children were returned to the U.S. ...


More @ link


----------



## brihard

https://globalnews.ca/news/5346883/crimes-against-humanity-charges-canadians-syria/



			
				Global News said:
			
		

> RCMP explores crimes against humanity charges for Canadian ISIS members
> By Stewart Bell
> National Online Journalist, Investigative
> Global News
> 
> 
> The RCMP is looking into whether war crimes laws can be used to prosecute Canadians detained in Syria over their alleged involvement in the so-called Islamic State, Global News has learned.
> 
> National security investigators are exploring not only whether terrorism charges are warranted, but also whether the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act could apply, officials said.
> 
> 
> While war crimes-related prosecutions are extremely rare in Canada, with 32 Canadians detained in Syria by U.S.-backed forces following the collapse of ISIS, the possibility of charges is being examined.
> 
> The investigations are part of the RCMP’s preparations for the possible return to Canada of captured ISIS members.
> 
> READ MORE: ‘We need to get ready’: RCMP planning for return of Canadian ISIS members
> 
> Asked about the issue Thursday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he had confidence in the RCMP but added that one of the challenges was “making the translation from intelligence gathering activities to presenting evidence of crimes.”
> 
> “That is something that the RCMP, our intelligence agencies and indeed agencies around the world are struggling with and working on very hard,” he said from Juno Beach.
> 
> None of the Canadians held in Syria have been charged under Canada’s anti-terrorism laws, which make it illegal to knowingly participate in the activity of a terrorist group. The maximum sentence is 10 years.
> 
> By contrast, war crimes-related laws outlaw participation in genocide, crimes against humanity or war crimes committed anywhere in the world. A conviction carries a possible life sentence.
> 
> Crimes against humanity include murder, enslavement, imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, persecution “or any other inhumane act” against a civilian population or identifiable group.
> 
> ISIS members openly engaged in all those crimes as they imposed their version of Islamic law on the local populations of Syria and northern Iraq, particularly against minority Yazidis.
> 
> But a national security law expert said prosecuting war crimes and crimes against humanity is demanding and it might be simpler to charge the Canadians under anti-terrorism laws.
> 
> Leah West said prosecutors would have to prove not only the culpability of the accused but also the context of the offence, demonstrating that it was done as part of a crime against humanity.
> 
> “So, I don’t see why you would go to that extent to prove these crimes, rather than charging the crime we have on the books to deal with exactly what they’ve done, which is go overseas to support a terrorist group.”
> 
> A former Department of Justice lawyer and now a doctoral candidate at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law, West said crimes against humanity laws might apply to some of the activities of the Canadians.
> 
> But even if they went to Syria to marry ISIS fighters and bear children for the so-called caliphate, that could still warrant a terrorism charge, she said.
> 
> “Prosecutors tend to want to walk the easiest path to proving criminal liability. Charging Canadians who supported ISIS overseas under the War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Act rather than terrorism offences under the Criminal Code isn’t the easier path.”
> 
> Six Canadian men, 9 women and 17 children are among the hundreds of foreigners held in camps and makeshift prisons in northeast Syria after being taken into custody during the fall of ISIS.
> 
> The U.S. has been encouraging countries to repatriate and prosecute their citizens. The Liberal government has said it can’t because it would be too dangerous to take them out through Iraq or Turkey.
> 
> The RCMP, however, has begun working on the assumption that the Canadians will eventually come back and has been studying possible travel routes for their return as well as building criminal cases against them.
> 
> War crimes laws have already been used in Germany, where a woman who joined ISIS was charged with crimes against humanity over the death of a five-year-old Yazidi slave she and her husband bought in Mosul.
> 
> Canada has a mixed record with such prosecutions.
> 
> In 2009, a Quebec court convicted Désiré Munyaneza of seven counts of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide over atrocities in Rwanda in 1994. He was sentenced to life.
> 
> Jacques Mungwarere, a refugee claimant arrested in Windsor in 2009, was also prosecuted for genocide for his alleged role in Rwanda but an Ontario judge found him not guilty in 2013.
> 
> The only known case in which Canada has used war crimes law in relation to ISIS involved a Lebanese mechanic who repaired vehicles for ISIS and who is now living in British Columbia.
> 
> Rather than putting him on trial, Canadian authorities intervened in his refugee case and are attempting to deport him. He was found complicit in crimes against humanity but is appealing.
> 
> On Monday, the Swedish government hosted a meeting of officials from Germany, France, the United Kingdom, and other European governments to discuss establishing a tribunal to prosecute ISIS members.
> 
> “Administering justice in the region, by means of a tribunal or some other legal mechanism, could complement national legal proceedings and contribute to accountability for the crimes committed during the conflict in Syria and Iraq,” Sweden said in a statement.
> 
> In the latest CTC Sentinel, a publication of the Combating Terrorism Centre at West Point, Brian Michael Jenkins argued that “bluster and muddle” was not a viable way of dealing with the ISIS detainees.
> 
> “This is not an option, but policy by default,” the veteran terrorism scholar wrote. “It describes the current situation. Warnings and threats prompt concern, but international co-ordination remains too complicated.”



I had surmised that in the background this was probably quietly underway, but it's an interesting update on the 'what the hell are we gonna do with these guys?'

The War Crimes Program is interesting- multi agency, multi disciplinary. You've got the RCMP, CBSA, Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada, and Department of Justice all working hand in hand on these. Allegations are evaluated in a joint manner, and a determination made as to what 'remedy' (or remedies) is most applicable. Criminal prosecutions are rare for all the same challenges I've elaborated on previously regarding terrorism prosecutions, but they've got a pretty decent track record of building up solid cases leading to refusal of refugee/asylum status, revocation of such status, revocation of citizenship, and removal from Canada of those deemed inadmissible. Part of the strategy is fighting 'impunity' and denying Canada as a safe haven for those complicit.

Unfortunately it still doesn't crack the tough nut of successfully prosecuting thsoe who are citizens and who didn't obtain their citizenship through fraud or deception... But it's something.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Another one, this time with some (at least alleged) specifics ...


> A Canadian detained in Syria has alleged that ISIS asked him to infiltrate the United States through its southern border to attack financial targets, according to researchers.
> 
> Speaking to the International Center for the Study of Violent Extremism, Abu Henricki al Canadi said he was instructed to travel to Puerto Rico, take a boat to Mexico and cross into the U.S.
> 
> “What they wanted to do, basically, is they wanted to do financial attacks. Financial attacks to cripple the economy,” he said in the May 12 interview conducted at a prison in northeast Syria.
> 
> The 39-year-old said he was not told the full details but the operation was masterminded by a New Jersey man and he assumed it was a bombing mission that would strike financial targets in the New York area.
> 
> “I haven’t told anyone this information,” he said.
> 
> Abu Henricki is a dual citizen of Canada and Trinidad. He is married to a British Columbia woman. Both were captured earlier this year by the U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) during the collapse of ISIS.
> 
> He claimed the ISIS intelligence wing approached him about the plot in 2016 “because I’m from that area” but he declined to take part, prompting him to be imprisoned in Manbij, Syria until 2017.
> 
> “I refused to do it. That is why also I’m put into prison and been tortured,” he said, adding he had been beaten, suspended, starved and waterboarded by ISIS during his detention.
> 
> Fifteen Canadian adults are being detained by Kurdish-led forces. Another 17 Canadian children are also being held. To date, none have been charged by Canadian authorities ...


And if you don't believe #BoughtMedia, there's this from the Int'l Ctr for the Study of Violent Extremism (ICSVE) ...


> ... Abu Henricki al Canadi[5], a Canadian with dual citizenship with Trinidad, who was detained by the SDF in Rojava, Syria spoke with ICSVE researchers for about 1.5 hours on May 12, 2019 giving his first-hand account of being attracted to, traveling, joining and serving in the Islamic State Caliphate, first as a fighter and later designated as unable to fight due to chronic illness. As we were about to bring the interview to a close, Abu Henricki suddenly decided he trusted us enough to unburden himself of something that he claimed had been troubling him for some time.
> 
> “There’s something that’s kind of like was playing in the mind in the past a little while now,” he told us. “I have been contacted by two organizations from the U.S. and Canada to help stop foreign attacks. The one guy in Canada wants to take me under his wing,” he explained his eyes widening. “Another one [the American intel] wants me to go around to people I met, Americans from Texas.” That foreign intelligence also interviews the imprisoned ISIS cadres we talk with and tries to learn from them, and perhaps also recruit them as informants, is no surprise to us, as we frequently hear about it from those we have interviewed in SDF and Iraqi prisons.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Abu Henricki then opens up about a plot in which he and other Trinidadians were invited to attempt to penetrate the U.S. borders to mount financial attacks on the U.S.  When asked how this occurred, he explains, “The emni [ISIS intelligence arm] was inviting us,” which matches other cases we and others have uncovered, in which the ISIS external emni identifies ISIS cadres willing to go home or attack in countries outside the Caliphate.[6] When asked if he can identify the emni member who invited him, as they routinely wore masks covering their faces, Abu Henricki answers, “He speaks English. He was Tunisian, maybe. I don’t know.  He approached the guys, and they approached me. He didn’t come directly to me.”
> 
> This was in the end of 2016. “They, what they will have, what they wanted to do basically is they wanted to do financial attacks. Financial attacks to cripple the [U.S.] economy,” Abu Henricki explains. “Apparently, they have the contacts or whatever papers they can get to a false ID, false passports [to send me out for this kind of attack,] he adds. “They have their system of doing it. So that’s maybe the way that I could have gone out with other individuals. It wasn’t me alone. They were sending you to Puerto Rico and from Puerto Rico [to Mexico].”
> 
> “One reason while I was also put in [ISIS] prison in 2016, I was asked to leave [ISIS] to go to America because I’m from that area. Cause they wanted [and] planned to do something and I refused.” Abu Henricki explains. “I refused to do it. That is why also I’m put into [ISIS] prison and been tortured,” he states.
> 
> (...)
> 
> When asked about the ISIS plot, he explains, “They were going to move me to the Mexican side [of the U.S. southern border] via Puerto Rico. This was mastermind[ed] by a guy in America.
> 
> Where he is, I do not know. That information, the plan came from someone from the New Jersey state from America. I was going to take a boat [from Puerto Rico] into Mexico. He was going to smuggle me in,” Abu Henricki explains. “I don’t know where I’d end up. Please be advised, I was not willing to do it,” Abu Henricki adds, wanting to be sure we don’t think he was willing to attack innocent civilians inside the U.S. “But this is one of their wicked, one of the plans that they had,” he explains, “and which I would like to think I foiled the plan by not being part of it.”
> 
> While Abu Henricki was told that the aim of the plot was to attack the financial system, as is often the case, the full details of the plot were not disclosed to him. “All I could think of was a bombing mission,” Abu Henricki explains to us, his face becoming deathly serious. Given that the mastermind was from New Jersey, it may have been aimed at New York financial targets ...


More @ link, or in attached PDF.


----------



## The Bread Guy

UK court:  yes, sending $ to your son who's up to shenanigans = you funding shenanigans …


> The parents of a Muslim convert dubbed "Jihadi Jack" have been found guilty of funding terrorism.
> 
> John Letts, 58, and Sally Lane, 57, from Oxford, sent their son £223 (~CAN$ 375) while he was in Syria despite concerns he had joined the Islamic State group.
> 
> An Old Bailey jury found the couple not guilty of sending him a further £1,000 (~CAN$ 1700) and could not reach a verdict on a third charge of funding terrorism.
> 
> The pair each received 15 months imprisonment, suspended for 12 months.
> 
> Muslim convert Jack Letts*** left his home in Oxford at 18 for Jordan and Kuwait for study and tourism.
> 
> In March 2015, police warned the couple they risked prosecution if they sent their son money.
> 
> Then in September, Lane transferred money to an account in Lebanon after Jack Letts insisted it had "nothing to do with jihad".
> 
> She told him: "I would go to prison for you if I thought it gave you a better chance of actually reaching your 25th birthday."
> 
> Judge Nicholas Hilliard QC said: "It was one thing for parents to be optimistic about their children, and I do acknowledge he is your son who you love very much.
> 
> "But in this context you did lose sight of realities."
> 
> He told the couple: "The warning signs were there for you to see."
> 
> He said that they were "intelligent adults" who set aside their suspicions to "please your son" ...


More @ link

*** - links to Wikipedia article on dual UK-Canadian national son


----------



## The Bread Guy

So, let's see what happens next here ... 


> The government has received requests for travel documents for five children of Canadian citizens whom experts say travelled to war-torn Syria to join the Islamic State and now want to come home.
> 
> Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada declined to say whether the Canadian parents of the children had onetime links to the Islamic State in Syria or what kind of travel documents were requested. However, extremism experts who communicate regularly with the Canadians in Syria confirmed the applications were for passports for five of 18 Canadian children overall trapped in the country.
> 
> “There is definitely movement on the ground in Canada with families moving to bring their kids back. Lawyers have been involved for some time, and these five kids, who are among the overall 18, will be the first of what is hopefully a broader effort to bring these children home,” said Amarnath Amarasingam, an assistant professor at Queen’s University who researches extremism.
> 
> The government has come under renewed pressure to repatriate the Canadian children, most of whom were born to Canadian women who travelled there to join the Islamic State. Mr. Amarasingam said the oldest child is 13, with the majority under 5; he has also identified nine Canadian women and six Canadian men trapped in two Kurdish-run camps in northeastern Syria.
> 
> In an interview Wednesday, Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said that while the stories about children stuck in Syrian camps are “heart-rending,” the government can’t lose sight of the Canadian parents’ actions.
> 
> “That is the grossly irresponsible, dangerous and entirely reprehensible behaviour of parents and families that led to their kids being in such circumstances,” Mr. Goodale said.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Nancy Caron, a spokeswoman for the Immigration department, said the government is not aware of any Canadian passports or travel documents that have been issued to children of Canadian citizens who travelled to join the Islamic State and who are now unable to leave Syria. Canada has no diplomatic presence in Syria so applicants would have to travel to a mission or embassy in a neighbouring country to obtain a passport.
> 
> “Given the security situation on the ground, the Government of Canada’s ability to provide consular assistance in any part of Syria is extremely limited,” Ms. Caron said in an e-mail ...


More @ link

op:


----------



## Journeyman

John Ivison, "Canada shirking its responsibility to prosecute its citizens who fought for ISIL," _National Post_,  4 July 2019
*LINK*


> Stewart Bell led an investigative Global News team into Kurdish territory to interview Mohammed Ali, a Canadian from Toronto who was a sniper and trainer for ISIL... This past March, British singer Joss Stone performed a concert in the Kurdish-controlled part of Syria, after sneaking across the border.  Yet, whenever Ottawa is asked about its strategy for dealing with Canadian jihadis detained abroad, the answer is always that the situation is too dangerous for meaningful intervention.
> 
> More likely, the Trudeau government would prefer not to have to deal with such an intractable problem before a federal election.
> 
> _[Interesting side-note]_…..there are obvious difficulties facing law enforcement trying to pursue prosecutions for offences committed abroad — as was highlighted by Abu Huzaifa case... a self-admitted ISIL executioner had returned to Canada undetected and has not been charged with any crimes.*
> 
> But the idea a television crew and a British pop star could visit northern Syria yet our law-enforcement agencies cannot, is patently preposterous.


Election-year policy:  nothing but sunny-ways can be discussed;  
own-party scandals (name-calling and finger-pointing at others' shortcomings is SOP for all parties) and 'too difficult' issues simply cannot exist.


* For more on Abu Huzaifa, currently living back in Toronto, see MacKenzie Institute, "Canada’s Returned Islamic State Member."


----------



## Cloud Cover

“But the idea a television crew and a British pop star could visit northern Syria yet our law-enforcement agencies cannot, is patently preposterous.”


Does Ivison read his own writing: he writes that Joss Stone snuck across the border.  Do we want the RCMP sneaking their way into a foreign country, arresting or otherwise taking into their control a criminal, then sneaking out, and then bringing them to trial. Sounds like a good Charter problem and a potential get out of jail for the terrorists from Canada. 
Let the buggers rot over there.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> ... Do we want the RCMP sneaking their way into a foreign country, arresting or otherwise taking into their control a criminal, then sneaking out, and then bringing them to trial. Sounds like a good Charter problem and a potential get out of jail for the terrorists from Canada ...


... not to mention potentially more compensation for legal mishandling that goes over soooooooooo well in many circles ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Cloud Cover] 


  Do we want the RCMP sneaking their way into a foreign country, arresting or otherwise taking into their control a criminal, then sneaking out, and then bringing them to trial. 
[/quote]

CSIS kill-team would be more bang for our buck.


----------



## tomahawk6

Canada should put them on a no fly list. Does Canada allow its citizens to join terror groups ? If not use that law to hold them. Otherwise revoke their citizenship.


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> CSIS kill-team would be more bang for our buck.



But what happened to “sunny ways”? Oh heavens 🤦‍♂️


----------



## George Wallace

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Canada should put them on a no fly list. Does Canada allow its citizens to join terror groups ? If not use that law to hold them. Otherwise revoke their citizenship.



We do have laws pertaining to joining terrorist organizations and leaving the country to join foreign enemies.  Unfortunately, the Government does now have the will to enforce their Laws.


----------



## Haggis

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> CSIS kill-team would be more bang for our buck.



I'm going out on a limb here but I don't think the Trudeau cult  Liberal government would survive a scandal around government sanctioned extra-judicial killings of Canadian citizens abroad.  A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, remember?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Haggis said:
			
		

> I'm going out on a limb here but I don't think the Trudeau cult  Liberal government would survive a scandal around government sanctioned extra-judicial killings of Canadian citizens abroad.  A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, remember?



Thats getting two birds stoned at once as far as I'm concerned  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We do have laws pertaining to *joining terrorist organizations* and *leaving the country to join foreign enemies*.  Unfortunately, the Government does now have the will to enforce their Laws.


With at least a _couple_ of exceptions   ...


----------



## brihard

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We do have laws pertaining to joining terrorist organizations and leaving the country to join foreign enemies.  Unfortunately, the Government does now have the will to enforce their Laws.



Proving all of the elements of the offense to the satisfaction of the court is the challenge, not least because many of the sources of what we know aren't things that can see the light of day in court. There has been at least one prosecution that they were able to bring forward, and I'm confident that there will be more in time.

Prosecution of a terrorism offense requires consent of the attorney general, but it would be political suicide were the government of the day known to have prevented prosecution of a viable investigation. If police are able to get the evidence, and if the evidence is clean, crown will go forward with it. It's just damned hard to assemble cases that can withstand disclosure and go through the whole court process. Terrorism offences bring really specific requirements for what has to be proven in terms of intent. We've sen a number of cases where other non-terrorism criminal offences are simply a lot easier to proceed with and there would be no value added from stacking the additional, more difficult to prove charges.

Our court process emphasises due process and the rights of an accused, and that's perfectly appropriate. But it makes it damned hard to craft and then apply law to extraterritorial offences in what are often was zones, with a complex and messy mix of military and security intelligence actors in play feeding in info of varying and sometimes dubious reliability.

Bear in mind that in Canadian criminal procedure, the crown is obligated to disclose all evidence to the accused/defense, not just that which is relied upon to prosecute. Any exculpatory evidence in the possession of the crown must be handed over. Once that is combined with the accused needing only to introduce reasonable doubt to be acquitted, and it becomes understandable why so few criminal terrorism charges go to prosecution.


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> Bear in mind that in Canadian criminal procedure, the crown is obligated to disclose all evidence to the accused/defense, not just that which is relied upon to prosecute. Any exculpatory evidence in the possession of the crown must be handed over.



Not to mention that some of that evidence may have been obtained using sensitive or classified methods and/or technologies which the government may not want to acknowledge.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from a Human Rights Watch report on conditions in holding camps in Kurdish-controlled Syria - highlights mine …


> The Kurdish-led Autonomous Administration for northeast Syria is holding more than 11,000 foreign women and children related to Islamic State (also known as ISIS) suspects in appalling and sometimes deadly conditions in a locked desert camp in northeast Syria, Human Rights Watch said today. At least 7,000 of the children are under 12.
> 
> During three visits to the section of al-Hol camp holding foreign women and children in June 2019, Human Rights Watch found overflowing latrines, sewage trickling into tattered tents, and residents drinking wash water from tanks containing worms. Young children with skin rashes, emaciated limbs, and swollen bellies sifted through mounds of stinking garbage under a scorching sun or lay limp on tent floors, their bodies dusted with dirt and flies. Children are dying from acute diarrhea and flu-like infections, aid groups and camp managers said.
> 
> (…)
> 
> I thought, “Now I’ll be able to practice my religion and cover my face without being harassed the way I am at home.” I heard there was bombing and stuff but I didn’t think I’d be living under it. But then I got here [to Syria] and realized how dangerous it was. My husband became disillusioned, too. A year ago, we found a smuggler to take us out. We wanted to start over. But then Kurdish [SDF] forces took us.
> 
> • “Miriam” from Canada, mother of two children born in Syria, husband in SDF-controlled prison.
> 
> (…)


----------



## Remius

I'd rather focus on getting clean water to certain communities, maybe deal with our homeless vets and make sure polar bears don't go extinct.

We have a such a long list of more important things....


----------



## tomahawk6

joining a terror group should cancel your citizenship. Ditto for any offspring. But I agree providing help for the refugee's via the UN or other groups like doctors without borders and other similar groups.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting approach (sort of a "change the rules for these guys, but only for five years" model) being offered up by someone who's "... a visiting scholar at Queen’s Law. He is a retired U.S. military lawyer and Army Ranger and a former Special Assistant U.S. Attorney. His combat tours include Iraq as a combat camera operator in 2003-4 and Afghanistan as an international law adviser from 2013-4."


> … Take a moment to reflect on some of the most imperative judicial guarantees that form the basis of our identity as Canadians: the right to personally confront witnesses against you, the right to inspect every shred of evidence against you, and the requirement for the Crown to prove each element of all offences to a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
> 
> With that short list of fundamental protections in mind, take another moment to reflect on why these are so essential to our concept of the rule of law. One simple word sums it up: trust. Fundamental judicial guarantees are "fundamental" because they operate as a check on the monopoly of power the sovereign exercises over we the governed.
> 
> The reason we are not able to find solutions to the problem of prosecuting returning ISIS fighters and supporters is that our starting point is "prosecution" — that is, employing the existing domestic law enforcement structure — to adjudicate alleged offences committed abroad.
> 
> (…)
> 
> Domestic judicial procedural processes are designed to protect individual freedoms from being abused at home where the government alone is permitted to use powers of force and coercion to settle disputes and maintain the peace, and this monopoly on the use of force is — by definition — not possible on the battlefield as it is at home.
> 
> An ISIS fighter, regardless of citizenship, did not have the right to examine evidence against him or her before the coalition targeted the fighter on the battlefield. We have now simply moved further along on the spectrum of conflict from active hostilities to adjudicating alleged offences against detained ISIS fighters and supporters.
> 
> On this spectrum, our government is still acting in its role as belligerent against opposing fighters that are now detained.  Why, then, are we still trying to resort to the standard domestic legal system to "prosecute" fighters that operated in a theatre where the government did not exercise a monopoly on the use of force and was not acting as a sovereign during active hostilities?
> 
> (…)
> 
> The "notwithstanding clause" of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms permits Parliament to modify judicial processes in certain circumstances for up to five years. The Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act permits Canada to "prosecute" offences against customary international law, and sources from the Nuremberg tribunals to the UN Charter to present-day UN Security Council resolutions confirm that ISIS's military campaign represented a threat to international peace and security and is therefore a violation of customary international law. We have the political will – public opinion demands the effective solutions that have proven to be so elusive ...


More @ link


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Credit where it's due, a good if surprising move by the government.
> 
> Sadly the story highlights how ridiculously slow our justice system can be. Looks like it will still be a while before he's deported.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/man-who-praised-isis-on-social-media-ordered-deported-from-canada-1.4880418?fbclid=IwAR0Cx28TQLM9njcrM3c8FZJ-XmjRdWlGsBp_XWGz5FW3xzUQ75Q_6WZhOqE


The latest ...

2 Aug 2019: _*"Online ISIS supporter deemed a danger to Canada ordered released from custody"*_ 
4 Aug 2019:  _*"Federal Court halts release of alleged online ISIS supporter"*_


----------



## The Bread Guy

And this from an Interpol cop helping the fight against Daesh/ISIS/ISIL (via the Global Coalition Against Daesh) ...


> Patrick Stevens, the Director of Interpol’s Counter Terrorism unit, said the Global Coalition is an example of best practice in sharing military intelligence. “I personally believe that the model we developed under the Global Coalition should be copied all over the world, and actually I can tell you we are trying to copy this model, and hopefully by next year we have similar operations ongoing”, he said.
> 
> The methods used during the fight against Daesh are more open and underline the importance of sharing what was formerly seen as “secret” information.
> 
> “Until recently, the military kept all military intelligence to themselves. But now, in this operation (Operation Inherent Resolve) they de-classify information – not everything of course – just what is necessary to bring awareness and alert the member countries through police channels”, said Mr Stevens.
> 
> “They give the de-classified information to a member country, and that country then gives it to Interpol. We already have more than 50,000 notices and 400,000 entities in one of our analytical databases, so we can enrich the data and we can disseminate it to other countries. And they can bring this to their own national databases or their border police.”
> 
> *Terrorists who have served their time*
> 
> In a wide-ranging interview with the Global Coalition’s On The Line podcast, the Interpol chief also reported that convicted terrorists – including ex-members of Daesh – are now beginning to leave prisons in European countries, having served their time. But, he warned, these ex-prisoners “may not be being followed up correctly”.
> 
> This was partly a capacity problem, Mr Stevens explained. “I’m not sure if all these people are followed up correctly – if every country has enough capacity to follow these people up and if there is an international cooperation process for the follow-up”. He urged countries to increase international cooperation, through Interpol, so the biometrics of more former prisoners can be held in databases.
> 
> This would mean, he said, that if the former prisoners travel to a different country using a false name or passport, they can be verified through the database, and the relevant country authorities would be alerted.
> 
> He stressed that this did not mean they would necessarily be arrested – because they have already done their time in prison – but it would be part of sharing good information about “who is in front of officials” – for example at border posts ...


A bit more @ link


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And this from an Interpol cop helping the fight against Daesh/ISIS/ISIL (via the Global Coalition Against Daesh) ...A bit more @ link



That sounds like some real efforts are being made to improve the evidence sharing situation (as distinguished from intelligence sharing). I’ve spoken at length on this before, no need to repeat right now... I’m just glad to see the problem acknowledged, with concrete efforts to address it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

:sarcasm: Why even bother if we just let them walk across the border, move to Toronto sanctuary city, give them everything they need and let them do whatever they want. It's not like the government cares. We have no idea who we have in this country, where they are or who they are. Even our minister of insecurity, goodale, admits to it.

Besides, we may have to give them millions once we identify them. I don't think we have millions left in the bank to give them, for killing our soldiers. I think the muslim brotherhood has most of it. :dunno: 
 :sarcasm:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some commentary from a former CSIS-ite ...


> ... Many may ask: Why is this so hard? Just lock these terrorists up and throw away the key! Except that we cannot do this. We have laws and courts and a Constitution and a Charter for a reason: We are the antithesis of what IS claimed it was. We are a democratic state where rule of law applies and people are presumed innocent unless they can be found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Furthermore, given the difficulty in using evidence collected half a world away in a war zone, it should be clear why we have had so few successful prosecutions to date.
> 
> I share your frustrations. While a senior strategic analyst and terrorism specialist at CSIS, I worked on such cases. Yet the Crown still has to prove its case and in some instances that may be all but impossible. We in Canada do not incarcerate those we have not found guilty.
> 
> We are then left with several options. We can leave them where they are and let the Iraqis and Syrians deal with them: after all, their crimes were committed in Iraqi or Syrian sovereign territory. We can bring them back and try to prosecute them but if we fail we may have terrorists among us who can carry out attacks here. We can put them through “deradicalization” programs although these are controversial and there is no guarantee they work. Or we can let CSIS and/or the RCMP keep tabs on them indefinitely, although this is very resource-intensive and expensive.
> 
> If it were up to me I’d choose the first option, even if I am not in favour of the death penalty that may apply. Who are we to tell a foreign state that a Canadian who commits an offence in their country cannot be held accountable there?
> 
> The bottom line is that this is a no-win problem for a Canadian government of any stripe ...


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Some commentary from a former CSIS-ite ...



Yup, the government is obligated only to do certain things. They are obligated to provide consular services, but they aren’t obligated to provide legal assistance. They’re obligated to provide emergency travel documents; they aren’t obligated to get them a flight.

The government will be able to effectively forsake some of them, and that will work.

That still leaves the necessity of having a plan for those who manage to make it back. At some point the Kurds, Turks, Syrians, whomever are going to just start putting some of these assholes on planes and making them our problem. Then we’re right back at square one... “what we know” vs “what we can prove in a court of law”...


----------



## Kat Stevens

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yup, the government is obligated only to do certain things. They are obligated to provide consular services, but they aren’t obligated to provide legal assistance. They’re obligated to provide emergency travel documents; they aren’t obligated to get them a flight.
> 
> The government will be able to effectively forsake some of them, and that will work.
> 
> That still leaves the necessity of having a plan for those who manage to make it back. At some point the Kurds, Turks, Syrians, whomever are going to just start putting some of these assholes on planes and making them our problem. Then we’re right back at square one... “what we know” vs “what we can prove in a court of law”...



"Welcome home. Kneel down facing the ditch. Now, smile and wait for the flash".


----------



## brihard

Target Up said:
			
		

> "Welcome home. Kneel down facing the ditch. Now, smile and wait for the flash".



Yeah... That’s the tough thing about not being ISIS. You don’t get to be ISIS.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yeah... That’s the tough thing about not being ISIS. You don’t get to be ISIS.



Yeah... That's the tough thing about jokes, not everyone understands it's a joke.


----------



## brihard

Target Up said:
			
		

> Yeah... That's the tough thing about jokes, not everyone understands it's a joke.



I know you weren’t being serious. And believe me, I get the sentiment. My comment was with a healthy heaping of irony. Being the good guys constrains us more than we would sometimes like. *shrug* It is what it is.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brihard said:
			
		

> I know you weren’t being serious. And believe me, I get the sentiment. My comment was with a healthy heaping of irony. Being the good guys constrains us more than we would sometimes like. *shrug* It is what it is.



...although it certainly does make Canada a much nicer place to live/come home to. :nod:

Regards
G2G


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yeah... That’s the tough thing about not being ISIS. You don’t get to be ISIS.


Or, sarcasm/jokes/irony aside, put another way ...


----------



## Kat Stevens

Because if you kill your enemy, he wins, or something?  8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Target Up said:
			
		

> Because if you kill your enemy, he wins, or something?  8)


Hey, I agree that life would be simpler if bad guys met their destiny on foreign battlefields, but the system we got is the system we got, warts & all.  

As I've said before, if this stuff was easy, other governments with WAY more of an appetite to deal with this would have dealt with it more quickly and more harshly -- and no, that's not blaming past management, that's just showing the bigger picture for context


----------



## Fishbone Jones

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Hey, I agree that life would be simpler if bad guys met their destiny on foreign battlefields, but the system we got is the system we got, warts & all.
> 
> As I've said before, if this stuff was easy, other governments with WAY more of an appetite to deal with this would have dealt with it more quickly and more harshly -- and no, that's not blaming past management, that's just showing the bigger picture for context



So, speaking hypothetically of course, Britain giving the SAS a hit list and saying, "These people are not to make it home" type of thing?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> So, speaking hypothetically of course, Britain giving the SAS a hit list and saying, "These people are not to make it home" type of thing?


Woulda, coulda, shoulda @ this point -- since folks are alive & in someone's custody, the legal cards we're dealt are the cards we have to play.  And it appears to be a difficult hand so far ...


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> So, speaking hypothetically of course, Britain giving the SAS a hit list and saying, "These people are not to make it home" type of thing?



I suspect that we’re most of us in violent agreement on this. A Daesh financier, propagandist, communications specialist, mechanic, or munitions tech is as fair game in the theatre of operations as a service battalion laager would be in conventional war. If bearded dudes with cool helmets smoke the target better than a JDAM or fire mission- battery, go nuts.

The Brits, et al, made a sound policy decision on this.



			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Woulda, coulda, shoulda @ this point -- since folks are alive & in someone's custody, the legal cards we're dealt are the cards we have to play.  And it appears to be a difficult hand so far ...



Unfortunately, yup.


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The latest ...
> 
> 2 Aug 2019: _*"Online ISIS supporter deemed a danger to Canada ordered released from custody"*_
> 4 Aug 2019:  _*"Federal Court halts release of alleged online ISIS supporter"*_


A bit more …


> Canadians will be “put at risk” if alleged ISIS supporter Othman Ayad Hamdan is released from immigration detention in British Columbia, officials argued in an application filed in the Federal Court.
> 
> There is “clear and compelling evidence that irreparable harm will occur” if Hamdan is released and it is “in the public interest” to continue his detention, according to the document.
> 
> The government submitted the 21-page memorandum to the court in Vancouver after the Immigration and Refugee Board last week ordered officials to free Hamdan on 25 conditions.
> 
> The release conditions imposed by IRB member Geoff Rempel — which include a $2,000 bond and an internet ban — “fall well short of mitigating the danger to the public,” the officials argued.
> 
> “The terms and conditions imposed by the member simply do not manage, or mitigate, the risk of release. The safety of the Canadian public will be put at risk if the stay is not granted.”
> 
> The submission also complained that Rempel had ordered Hamdan to live in Enderby, B.C., “despite the fact that Enderby is an 84 minute [sic] drive from the Revelstoke Dam, which the respondent had identified as an infrastructure target.”
> 
> A hearing has been scheduled for Monday, Aug. 12 to decide whether Hamdan, 37, should remain in custody while the government appeals his release order ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Elsewhere …


> Children of British Isis members stranded in Syria will not be allowed to return to the UK, the government has reportedly decided.
> 
> At least 30 British children are currently being held with their mothers in camps in northern Syria, after being detained as they fled the crumbling Isis caliphate.
> 
> The government has been under pressure to bring them home from the dangerous and overcrowded camps, both from local Syrian authorities and from the Trump administration. Earlier this year the infant son of Shamima Begum, the teenager who fled her home in Bethnal Green to join Isis, died weeks after arriving at one of the facilities.
> 
> The former foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt had said following the death that the government was working with the then international development secretary, Penny Mordaunt, on whether the children could be safely returned.
> 
> But Sajid Javid, the former home secretary, concluded after a review that it would be too dangerous to send officials to retrieve the children from Syria, according to The Times – despite the camps being regularly visited by British aid workers and journalists ...


----------



## FJAG

Jihadi Jack now Canada's problem as Britain strips him of his UK citizenship.



> ISIS fighter Jihadi Jack is stripped of his UK passport sparking furious diplomatic row with Canada where he has joint citizenship
> EXCLUSIVE: Jihadi Jack, an IS fighter, has been stripped of his British citizenship
> Muslim convert Jack Letts, 24, fled his Oxfordshire home to fight in Syria
> Move has sparked a row between the UK and Canada, as he is a dual citizen
> By HARRY COLE FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDA
> 
> The IS fighter known as Jihadi Jack has been stripped of his British citizenship, sparking a furious diplomatic row with Canada.
> 
> Muslim convert Jack Letts, 24, had held duel UK and Canadian citizenship but declared himself an ‘enemy of Britain’ after fleeing his Oxfordshire home to fight in Syria.
> 
> After being captured by Kurdish authorities, he begged to be allowed back to the UK and, despite previously saying he wanted to be a suicide bomber, insisted he had ‘no intention of blowing up’ Britons.
> 
> But The Mail on Sunday can reveal that the Home Office has torn up his British passport, making him the responsibility of the Canadian government.
> 
> The decision has sparked fury in Ottawa, with fears of a public spat when Canadian PM Justin Trudeau meets Boris Johnson at the G7 summit in France next weekend.
> 
> Whitehall officials suspect the row may also explain the recent hardline stance taken by the Canadians over a post-Brexit trade deal with the UK.
> ...



See rest of article here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367565/ISIS-fighter-Jihadi-Jack-stripped-UK-passport-sparking-furious-diplomatic-row-Canada.html

 :stirpot:


----------



## OldSolduer

FJAG said:
			
		

> Jihadi Jack now Canada's problem as Britain strips him of his UK citizenship.
> 
> See rest of article here:
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367565/ISIS-fighter-Jihadi-Jack-stripped-UK-passport-sparking-furious-diplomatic-row-Canada.html
> 
> :stirpot:



A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.

Where have I heard that before??


----------



## Cloud Cover

So deal with him there before he comes here.  :facepalm:


----------



## brihard

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> So deal with him there before he comes here.  :facepalm:



What do you propose that would be legal? There’s one set of options for combatants in a theatre of operations. There’s another set of options for civil prisoners in foreign custody.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Brihard said:
			
		

> What do you propose that would be legal? There’s one set of options for combatants in a theatre of operations. There’s another set of options for civil prisoners in foreign custody.



Pointy umbrella full of ricin sounds about right.


----------



## PuckChaser

Target Up said:
			
		

> Pointy umbrella full of ricin sounds about right.



That's too quick for him. Let him rot in a Kurdish prison. He wanted to play big boy games, now he can have big boy prizes.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> What do you propose that would be legal?



Let it slip that him and Jeffrey Epstein were communicating.


----------



## OldSolduer

Brihard said:
			
		

> What do you propose that would be legal? There’s one set of options for combatants in a theatre of operations. There’s another set of options for civil prisoners in foreign custody.



To put it bluntly, our hands are tied. We won't have a choice.

He'll be coming back whether we like it or not.


----------



## Remius

Its' what we do with him when he gets here that will be the test.


----------



## Journeyman

Remius said:
			
		

> Its' what we do with him when he gets here that will be the test.


We don't have a particularly stellar track record;  of the approximately 60 foreign fighters who have returned to Canada, we've managed to convict FOUR.

Cup half full, we've only paid one $10.6M


----------



## brihard

A complicating factor for him: Logistics.

OK, he's a Canadian citizen by birth to a Canadian parent. By virtue of citizenship we cannot keep him out should he arrive (again, as always, our government needn't try too hard to help him here). If he gets here, he needs a place to stay, a roof over his head, food. He barely has a pot to piss in. Had he returned to Britain, safe to assume he'd have been back under his parents' roof.

His father is of course a Canadian citizen, and likewise can enter Canada. His mother, though, is a British citizen, not Canadian. More to the point, she's a British citizen with a conviction under the Terrorism Act for entering into a funding arrangement, an indictable offense that carries a maximum sentence of 14 years, and which carries comparable consequences in Canada. That makes her inadmissible to Canada for serious criminality. 

So the father but not the mother can enter Canada. The son can't enter Britain. I don't know the father's immigration status in Britain, but I suspect they as a family are hyper-conscious about the potential consequences should he leave British soil with his similar conviction. There may not be any one single location where the whole family can be together. I think that's one of those 'stupid prizes'?

EDIT TO ADD: And of course immediately after I post this, the next article I read mentions that the couple has separated. So it may well end up as father and son back in Canada.


----------



## Remius

Journeyman said:
			
		

> We don't have a particularly stellar track record;  of the approximately 60 foreign fighters who have returned to Canada, we've managed to convict FOUR.
> 
> Cup half full, we've only paid one $10.6M



Were not the only ones...

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/americas-isis-members-are-coming-home


----------



## Kat Stevens

Remius said:
			
		

> Were not the only ones...
> 
> https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/americas-isis-members-are-coming-home



Well, that makes it alright, then.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Target Up said:
			
		

> Well, that makes it alright, then.


No, but many folks who don't want this guy back (understandably) also seem to like many of the ideas of some who say these folks should be going back to their home territory to face trials ...


----------



## FJAG

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> No, but many folks who don't want this guy back (understandably) also seem to like many of the ideas of some who say these folks should be going back to their home territory to face trials ...



That's a whole lot easier said then done. Jurisdiction is a big issue. National laws respecting extraterritorial crimes are varied and, in some case, nonexistent.

Evidence in order to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt is another.

By far the simplest solution is to allow Iraq and Syria to try and punish anyone for crimes committed within their territory although there remain issues with the various factions claiming control of parts of each country.

Bringing people "home" to North America or Europe for trial is by far the most complex and expensive process which will result in numerous offenders getting off scot-free. 

 :cheers:


----------



## Cloud Cover

In these cases it might be better to let a little bit of local justice trump national concerns and the niceties of western concepts of punishment fitting the crime. Bringing them here is a reward and a nod to nefarious and evil acts.  If the worst these people can expect upon capture or surrender is to be shipped to a place like Canada, there is no deterrent.


----------



## FJAG

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> In these cases it might be better to let a little bit of local justice trump national concerns and the niceties of western concepts of punishment fitting the crime. Bringing them here is a reward and a nod to nefarious and evil acts.  If the worst these people can expect upon capture or surrender is to be shipped to a place like Canada, there is no deterrent.



The Sixth amendment to the US Constitution provides:



> In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence



In Canada:



> R v Kellar (1973), 24 C.R.N.S. 71(*no CanLII links) , at p. 77, R v Singh, 2018 ONSC 1532 (CanLII), per Durno J, at para 150 ("There remains a presumption that a trial will be held in the place where the offence occurred. Reasons of convenience, court efficiency, and the need for members of the community in which the crime is alleged to have occurred to see justice done all continue to support holding the trial where the indictment was filed. However, in Canada there is no right to have a trial in a particular city, village or town where the offence occurred…")
> see also R v Suzack, 2000 CanLII 5630 (ON CA), per Doherty JA ("It is a well-established principle that criminal trials should be held in the venue in which the alleged crime took place. This principle serves both the interests of the community and those of the accused")



My view is that the people of Syria and Iraq (even Jordan and some others) are entitled to see justice done within their jurisdictions. ISIS perpetrated or participated in some of the most heinous crimes against their people and property. 

These are principles of our own laws. Why should we let our citizens who voluntarily went to a foreign country to commit crimes escape punishment by the very people they harmed?

 :dunno:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> In these cases it might be better to let a little bit of local justice trump national concerns and the niceties of western concepts of punishment fitting the crime.





			
				FJAG said:
			
		

> My view is that the people of Syria and Iraq (even Jordan and some others) are entitled to see justice done within their jurisdictions. ISIS perpetrated or participated in some of the most heinous crimes against their people and property.


Agreed - local crime = local process + local time.  That said, if these folks are being held by an entity that isn't really a country @ this point (in Kurdish-held bits of other countries), do they have enough of a legal system to try these guys?  And we know what happened the last time we let Syria deal with a suspicious Canadian ...


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

True enough, Milnews.

However, there is a big difference. In the Arrar case, the Canadian governement, through the improper actions of the RCMP, was found to have been the cause of Arrar's deportation to another country to face unwarranted justice for acts he did not commit (At least, that is the final narative from the various Supreme Court cases).

In the case of "terror travelers" like the present instance, these people voluntarily exited their country of origin to enter another country and commit acts there that may attract "proceedings" against them locally. In such case, Canada, or any other country, not only has no obligation but has no power to interfere in the justice system of such foreign countries - save to provide consular assistance where possible. And consular assistance, BTW, does not include providing in any way for the legal defence of such Canadian, nor their repatriation - unless they are a country we have Treaty with to permit repatriation after the trial in order to serve their sentence pronounced by the foreign power but in a Canadian jail. We have very few such treaties and they are usually with other Western democracies.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> In the case of "terror travelers" like the present instance, these people voluntarily exited their country of origin to enter another country and commit acts there that may attract "proceedings" against them locally. In such case, Canada, or any other country, not only has no obligation but has no power to interfere in the justice system of such foreign countries - save to provide consular assistance where possible.


Seen.

Any insights re:  whether the Kurds have enough of a legal justice "system" to be considered even reasonable/"fair"?  I ask because I'm guessing (always stand to be corrected) if a Canadian were tried under such a system while laws in place in Canada could also deal with them, more compensation payments could be pending.  I suspect there's not much of a system in place, given their eagerness to move these folks along?


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> …. more compensation payments could be pending.


   :facepalm:

And of course, no one will commit to _anything_  potentially controversial until after the election.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> True enough, Milnews.
> 
> However, there is a big difference. In the Arrar case, the Canadian governement, through the improper actions of the RCMP, was found to have been the cause of Arrar's deportation to another country to face unwarranted justice for acts he did not commit (At least, that is the final narative from the various Supreme Court cases).
> 
> In the case of "terror travelers" like the present instance, these people voluntarily exited their country of origin to enter another country and commit acts there that may attract "proceedings" against them locally. In such case, Canada, or any other country, not only has no obligation but has no power to interfere in the justice system of such foreign countries - save to provide consular assistance where possible. And consular assistance, BTW, does not include providing in any way for the legal defence of such Canadian, nor their repatriation - unless they are a country we have Treaty with to permit repatriation after the trial in order to serve their sentence pronounced by the foreign power but in a Canadian jail. We have very few such treaties and they are usually with other Western democracies.



Try them all in Den Hague and those convicted be jailed there.  They can swap stories about ethnic cleansing with the ex-Yugo's.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> And of course, no one will commit to _anything_  potentially controversial until after the election.


:nod:


			
				Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Try them all in Den Hague and those convicted be jailed there.  They can swap stories about ethnic cleansing with the ex-Yugo's.


The idea of _"..."a special international tribunal in north-east Syria to prosecute terrorists" to ensure that trials are "conducted fairly and in accordance with international law and human rights covenants and charters" ..."_ has been brought up by the Kurds currently hosting the terror tourists.  I suspect the same issue of getting evidence from war zones and/or less-than-fully-rule-of-law states that'll stand up in court goes for int'l courts as much as it does for Canadian courts.


----------



## Cloud Cover

It can be done though. There was a special court set up for prosecutions in Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge.

https://www.nurembergacademy.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Cambodia.pdf

https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=677119021086099006106006119118122088127008049065074002106110004027029109077121083073029003016045000030051090114084018115117087057042094035072064005007120079090127031089032086025022106116072094083014088082093097095116124030013069073089096087104104106013&EXT=pdf

https://journals.sagepub.com/eprint/7MKQ3K7iSXKK6tQPSWQi/full 
Note: bit of a warning about making these crimes out in international law vs local, territorial, tribal or custom law- justice will be selective, limited and probably not what victims are entitled to see done, if there is any justice at all.
“This disjuncture between victim discourse and the delivery of ‘justice’ can in part be attributed to the selective delivery of justice offered by legal institutions (Robins, 2017: 45). Only a small number of atrocities fall within the scope of ICL, and of those only some will be acknowledged as such by the international community (Cryer, 2005; Simpson, 1997). Even those victims whose atrocities fall within ICL may be excluded from recognition and redress (Robins, 2017), as prosecutorial strategies prioritise specific harms and perpetrators over others (Pritchett, 2008; Côte, 2005). Those whose victimisations are prosecuted may continue to find themselves excluded from or marginalised by the trial process, as adversarial procedures may reduce their visibility within the courtroom (Dignan, 2005). These institutional choices with regards to jurisdictional limits, charges, and modes of victim participation, create what Kendall and Nouwen (2013) have termed a ‘pyramid’ of victimhood, with victims of harm at the bottom, and those recognised by ICL institutions as worthy of redress at the top.”

Going back up to what OGBD and FJAG are pointing out, it seems illogical to prosecute any of these ISIL criminals under country of origin or even international law. Justice should be delivered within the locality of where the crime was committed. To wit: Nuremberg is in Germany and some thoughts about the type and character of the law applied by the victors: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1946/04/nuremberg-a-fair-trial-a-dangerous-precedent/306492/


----------



## brihard

In the Citizen today, courtesy of Reuters:

Canada says it will not help Jihadi Jack come to the country

Pretty much as I’ve been saying... We can’t keep him out, but we don’t need to send him a plane or a ticket.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Thanks for sharing, Cloud Cover - forgot about those.


			
				Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Note: bit of a warning about making these crimes out in international law vs local, territorial, tribal or custom law- justice will be selective, limited and probably not what victims are entitled to see done, if there is any justice at all.


Sadly, this wouldn't be the only such system where this'll be true ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> ... And of course immediately after I post this, the next article I read mentions that the couple has separated. So it may well end up as father and son back in Canada.


Funny you should mention that ....  ;D


> The father of Jack Letts, a Canadian who was stripped of his British citizenship over his alleged support for the Islamic State, says he is hoping to visit Canada in the coming weeks to advocate for his son’s repatriation and is considering a permanent move.
> 
> (...)
> 
> John said he and Ms. Lane are considering moving to Canada in the longer term because they’ve been “basically hounded out of Britain” for being Jack’s parents.
> 
> “It’s destroyed us in a personal sense. It’s destroyed our family. It’s certainly destroyed us financially. We’re about destitute. We literally can’t pay the rent so we have to abandon our rented house,” John said.
> 
> The couple was sentenced to 15 months in prison in June, but the judge suspended the sentence for a year, saying they had lost sight of reality while trying to help their son.
> 
> John said he and Ms. Lane would like to be in Canada if Jack is repatriated, so they can support him through his return.
> 
> “If Britain doesn’t like who I am, I’d happily move to Canada, and we’re talking about that as an option," he said ...


More in the _Globe & Mail_ here.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Here's an idea.

John Letts and Ms Lane can hop on a flight to Syria and go support their son over there.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> John Letts and Ms Lane can hop on a flight to Syria and go support their son over there.


And they though _the UK_ treated them badly for sending money to an ISIS member ...


----------



## brihard

Still not knowing if she picked up Canadian citizenship at any point, I’m not sure how well attempting to come to Canada would go for her with her conviction. I wonder if somehow they haven’t thought of that?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Still not knowing if she picked up Canadian citizenship at any point, I’m not sure how well attempting to come to Canada would go for her with her conviction ...


... or the father's for that matter.

Oh my, just caught this, too ...
_*"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate"*_

op:


----------



## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... or the father's for that matter.
> 
> Oh my, just caught this, too ...
> _*"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate"*_
> 
> op:



I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left wingers who think he's "misunderstood" etc....


----------



## Jarnhamar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And they though _the UK_ treated them badly for sending money to an ISIS member ...



Maybe if they came across a pile of bones and some rotting toys they might re-evaluate defending their sons choices.


----------



## brihard

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I can hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the left wingers who think he's "misunderstood" etc....



Your ears are excellent then. I've yet to see or hear anyone coming to his defense. I'm not saying they're out there; inevitably there will be a few- just please don't presnt it as if that is a broadly held or accepted view from what you would lump as 'the left'.



			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... or the father's for that matter.
> 
> Oh my, just caught this, too ...
> _*"Father of accused ISIL member Jack Letts challenges Andrew Scheer to a debate on son's fate"*_
> 
> op:



The father's a Canadian citizen. Given his propensity for running to the media, had his passport been revoked I'm sure we'd have heard of it. Though maybe in a bit of hilarity he's been added to a no fly list? Not sure. But in any case it's quite likely he'd be able to come back to Canada. His mother, providing she's not a citizenship, has been convicted of an offense that should make her inadmissible to Canada.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Another nudge from our southern neighbours …


> U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo today pointedly called on Canada to repatriate Canadian citizens who joined ISIS and are now detained in Syria.
> 
> "We want every country to take their citizens back. That's step one. It's imperative that they do so," said Pompeo in an interview with CBC News Network's Power & Politics. "Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists.
> 
> 
> "We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."
> 
> The top U.S. diplomat's remarks came one day after U.S. President Donald Trump threatened to release captured ISIS fighters into Europe.
> 
> "We're holding thousands of ISIS fighters right now. And Europe has to take them. And if Europe doesn't take them, I'll have no choice but to release them into the countries from which they came. Which is Germany and France and other places," said Trump.
> 
> Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale said Tuesday on Power & Politics that the federal government will ensure that the law is applied, but Canada is not legally obliged to facilitate the return of Jack Letts, a captured Canadian citizen accused of joining ISIS.
> 
> Goodale said that the Canadian government's first obligation is to national security and the safety of Canadians ...


----------



## Brad Sallows

This is getting interesting.

All of these people are going to be disposed of somehow, unless they are to remain exactly where they are, as they are.  There will be degrees of active and passive responsibility on the parts of the nations involved.  I foresee a lot of hand-washing.

The "Canada must accept responsibility for its citizens" crowd is a little bit quiet on this matter.  Maybe if the people were all transferred to Gitmo first it would move things along?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> … Maybe if the people were all transferred to Gitmo first it would move things along?


If the U.S. wants foreigners to end up back in their own foreign lands, this isn't likely, but it would sure make the debate more … brisk


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

So Secretary Pompeo has stated:

"Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."

Does this mean that, in the case of Jihady Jack, the US will pressure the UK into doing the right thing and take responsibility? After all, under his circumstances, it is difficult to pretend that he travelled to Syria as a "Canadian" citizen rather than as a British one. Similarly, how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.


----------



## Journeyman

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> So Secretary Pompeo has stated:
> 
> "Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."
> 
> Does this mean that, in the case of Jihady Jack, the US will pressure the UK into doing the right thing and take responsibility? After all, under his circumstances, it is difficult to pretend that he travelled to Syria as a "Canadian" citizen rather than as a British one. Similarly, how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.


_Pffft _  mere facts and logic.  Not applicable to this regime at the best of times.   ~dismissive wave~


----------



## The Bread Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> ... how can you claim that Canada should take  back someone who never left (or even ever resided in) Canada. In fact, since he has never set foot in Canada for more than perhaps a quick family trip in his youth, The U.K., from which he left to jihad, not Canada, is the only country that could have stopped him from travelling to Syria.


Stop making the defence's case, you!  ;D


----------



## tomahawk6

UN refugee camp not much fun eh ?


----------



## PuckChaser

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> UN refugee camp not much fun eh ?



He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.


----------



## OldSolduer

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.



I bet he’s a catcher.....


----------



## Ostrozac

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> He's in a Kurdish prison. I hope he gets a nice long sentence so he can stay there for a few decades to think about whether he's a fan of "sharia" or not anymore.



He won’t be in a Kurdish prison for decades, that isn’t an option, which is part of the problem. The stated US policy is to reduce/eliminate support for Kurdish forces in Syria, and as a result they are thinning out, and things like running a prison system aren’t in the budget. A smooth handover of their prisons to the Assad Regime isn’t in the cards, Iraq also isn’t interested, and the YPG aren’t going to simply shoot all their prisoners. We are still grasping for a solution for prisoner handling, both in this and the next few insurgencies, and we are wallpapering over that fundamental gap in capability. Gitmo was flawed, but it was multinational and supported multiple theatres, and trying to retire it without a replacement capability was a mistake.


----------



## tomahawk6

At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."


----------



## Jarnhamar

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."




But



> "Each country needs to take responsibility for their own citizens that travelled to Syria and fought as terrorists. (...) We've been clear with the Canadian government. We want them to take their people back."


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> At least one US citizen turned bedroom jihadist comfort woman has been denied entry back into the US. To use an old saying " made your bed now lay in it ."


... in addition to some others nabbed & charged after being returned by the Kurds:

_*"Former Indiana Resident Charged With Providing and Conspiring to Provide Material Support to ISIS"*_ (USA DOJ)
_*"Texas Man Arrested for Attempting to Provide Material Support to a Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization"*_ (USA DOJ)
_*"American Citizen Who Became ISIS Sniper and Weapons Instructor Charged with Providing Material Support to Terrorist Organization "*_ (USA DOJ)

Meanwhile, while they're waiting ...


> In the desert camp in northeastern Syria where tens of thousands of Islamic State fighters’ wives and children have been trapped for months in miserable conditions with no prospects of leaving, ISIS sympathizers regularly torch the tents of women deemed infidels.
> 
> Fights between camp residents have brought smuggled guns into the open, and some women have attacked or threatened others with knives and hammers. Twice, in June and July, women stabbed the Kurdish guards who were escorting them, sending the camp into lockdown.
> 
> Virtually all women wear the niqab, the full-length black veil demanded by ISIS’s rigid interpretation of Islam — some because they still adhere to the group’s ideology, others because they fear running afoul of the true believers.
> 
> The Kurdish-run Al Hol camp is struggling to secure and serve nearly 70,000 displaced people, mainly women and children who fled there during the last battle to oust the Islamic State from eastern Syria. Filled with women stripped of hope and children who regularly die before receiving medical care, it has become what aid workers, researchers and American military officials warn is a disaster in the making ...


----------



## Cloud Cover

Sounds like hell on earth for the living


----------



## The Bread Guy

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Sounds like hell on earth for the living


Some'll say "play with the bull, expect some horn," while others'll say, "good place to create more of these guys, especially if they can buy their way out to do bad shit elsewhere."  #FarFromEasySolutions


----------



## Czech_pivo

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Some'll say "play with the bull, expect some horn," while others'll say, "good place to create more of these guys, especially if they can buy their way out to do bad crap elsewhere."  #FarFromEasySolutions



If we could only ask the dead that were killed by these people, or their husbands/sons/brothers/fathers, if they'd be willing to trade places with them....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the U.S. ...


> U.S. President Donald Trump on Friday renewed threats to dump captured Islamic State fighters on Europe's doorstep if countries there continue to refuse to take back all their foreign fighters.
> 
> Trump said he was continuing with plans to draw down forces in Syria, saying the U.S. had done the world a big favor by eliminating the terror group's self-declared caliphate and that it was time for other countries to step up.
> 
> "We're asking them to take back these prisoners of war," Trump told reporters during a meeting with Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison in the Oval Office at the White House.
> 
> "They've refused," he added. "And at some point I'm going to have to say, 'I'm sorry, but you're either taking them back or we're going to let them go at your border.' " ...


----------



## FJAG

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This from the U.S. ...



As usual one has simplistic ideas coming from this man. Firstly they aren't Prisoners of War since they were never lawful combatants of a specific nation that is a party to the hostilities. Lawful combatants are entitled to return to the country that essentially recruited and controlled them during the hostilities. That doesn't exist here.

These are, at best, vagabond mercenaries that did not fight for a country but for an ideology and as such are criminals within the country where their crimes took place. Quite frankly Syria or Iraq are the countries with the greatest interest and legal status to try and punish these folks. That's a different problem, however. To try to foist this off on European nations just because these morons were born there or lived there for a while is irrational.

 :cheers:


----------



## The Bread Guy

FJAG said:
			
		

> ... To try to *foist this off on European nations* just because these morons were born there or lived there for a while is irrational.


Not _just_ on _European_ nations, let's not forget ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

We'll see ...


> _*Key Takeaway*_: The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is preparing to free its loyal fighters and followers from prisons and displacement camps across Syria and Iraq. ISIS Emir Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi signaled the start of this campaign in a speech released on September 16, 2019, in which he called on his fighters to liberate prisoners and save women in displacement camps. The Al-Hawl Camp in Northern Syria represents a particular risk. ISIS is already active in Al-Hawl Camp. It has been fundraising in the camp via encrypted channels (such as Telegram) since at least June 2019. It is likely organizing similar activity in other displacement camps in Iraq and Syria.


More @ link


----------



## The Bread Guy

Fine - enjoy your current accomodations, then ....


> Before he was captured by Syrian Kurdish forces in February, Canadian Mohammed Khalifa went from being a cog in the ranks of ISIS to its English language voice.
> 
> Khalifa, 35, who goes by his ISIS nom de guerre Abu Ridwan, says he would like to return to Canada provided he can bring his non-Canadian wife and their three children.
> 
> "This area is no doubt a dangerous area. I'd want to take my family out of there," Abu Ridwan told The Fifth Estate in an interview from a prison in northern Syria.
> 
> But if his return means he will likely face justice in a Canadian court, Abu Ridwan said he would rather remain locked up where he is.
> 
> "In terms of going back to be judged, then no." ...


Some of his previous material attached (source).


----------



## Jarnhamar

> Khalifa, 35, who goes by his ISIS nom de guerre Abu Ridwan, says he would like to return to Canada provided he can bring his non-Canadian wife and their three children.
> 
> "This area is no doubt a dangerous area. I'd want to take my family out of there," Abu Ridwan told The Fifth Estate in an interview from a prison in northern Syria.
> 
> But if his return means he will likely face justice in a Canadian court, Abu Ridwan said he would rather remain locked up where he is.
> 
> "In terms of going back to be judged, then no." ...



Why not ask for a few million dollars to help reintegrate into Canadian life while he's at it lol


----------



## The Bread Guy

Australia's take ...


> The Morrison government is in no rush to repatriate 66 Australian women and children trapped in the al-Hawl camp in Syria.
> 
> The security situation in the camp has dramatically deteriorated in the past 48 hours, with Islamic State supporters opening fire at guards.
> 
> The foreign minister says the Australians, most of them under five, are in a complex situation.
> 
> "The repatriation of any people in Syria in those contexts at the moment is very, very difficult," Marise Payne told ABC radio on Wednesday.
> 
> "It's complicated by the fact the area is highly dangerous and unstable."
> 
> Senator Payne said the Australian government would weigh each case individually.
> 
> "As far as individuals are concerned and in some cases families, we are assessing each of those cases on their merits, but our first duty is of course to protect Australia and Australians," she said.
> 
> "We are talking about people who may have been involved in supporting terrorism, may have fought with terrorists in Syria and Iraq, and that does pose a threat to the safety of Australia and Australians
> 
> "I think the Australian population would expect us to make our assessments of each case on its own merits."


----------



## Jarnhamar

> The Morrison government is in no rush to repatriate 66 Australian women and children trapped in the al-Hawl camp in Syria.
> 
> The security situation in the camp has dramatically deteriorated in the past 48 hours, * with Islamic State supporters opening fire at guards* .



ISIS probably just wants their wives and kids back.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, from U.S. Central Command (source) ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Given the overlap, merged the "Cdn ISIS fighters ID'ed" and "Bringing families back" threads.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Find a deserted Island that can sustain life, dump them there, float supplies in once a year and they can have their little caliphate.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, back in one of the Kurdish-run camps that is in place …


> America’s Syrian Kurdish allies are at risk of losing control of the vast camp where the families of the Islamic State’s defeated fighters are being detained as militant women increasingly assert their dominance over the camp, according to the top Kurdish military commander.
> 
> Guards at the al-Hol camp in eastern Syria are failing to contain the increasingly violent behavior of some of the residents, and the flimsy perimeter is at risk of being breached unless the international community steps in with more assistance, said the head of the Syrian Democratic Forces, Gen. Mazloum Kobane, who uses a nom de guerre and is known simply as Mazloum.
> 
> “There is a serious risk in al-Hol. Right now, our people are able to guard it. But because we lack resources, Daesh are regrouping and reorganizing in the camp,” he said, using the Arab acronym for the Islamic State. “We can’t control them 100 percent, and the situation is grave.”
> 
> The al-Hol internment camp in eastern Syria houses around 70,000 people, most of them women and children who were displaced by the war against the Islamic State. A majority of those are ordinary civilians caught up in the fighting who have no relationship to the militants, and over half are children.
> 
> But as many as 30,000 are Islamic State loyalists, including the most die-hard radicals who chose to remain in the dwindling caliphate until the final battle for the village of Baghouz earlier this year, Mazloum said in a telephone interview from his headquarters in the Syrian province of Hasakah.
> 
> Around 10,000 of those are foreigners from over 40 countries who made the journey to join the Islamic State in Syria, and they are among the most fiercely committed extremists, according to camp officials ...


----------



## Remius

Colin P said:
			
		

> Find a deserted Island that can sustain life, dump them there, float supplies in once a year and they can have their little caliphate.



Isn't that how they created Australia?

Plenty of islands in the Arctic.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I was thinking more Pitcairn Island


----------



## Remius

Colin P said:
			
		

> I was thinking more Pitcairn Island




The weather is too nice.  In the Arctic you lose the will to fight due to having to spend your time surviving.


----------



## ModlrMike

They were able to make their way there without our assistance, they can make their own way back. Whatever happens, happens. They should have done better risk analysis.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Which I think is the CPC plan of action, if you show up on our border, we arrest you.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Which I think is the CPC plan of action, if you show up on our border, we arrest you.


I've seen the "we won't lift a finger" quote about Jihadi Jack, but I haven't read that level of detail in the CPC's news releases or media coverage.  Last summer, there was this:


> The Honourable Michelle Rempel, Shadow Minister for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, and Pierre Paul-Hus, Shadow Minister for Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, issued a statement calling on Justin Trudeau to bring justice to the victims of ISIS and refer the cases of Canadian ISIS terrorists to the International Criminal Court: “Justin Trudeau’s government has proven itself either unwilling or unable to prosecute Canadian ISIS terrorists. Recently, one Canadian has gone as far as to admit to carrying out executions on behalf of ISIS to the New York Times. He is currently walking the streets of Canada as a free man. “To date, the Liberals have placed more emphasis on providing support like poetry training for Canadian returned ISIS terrorists than swiftly working to bring them to justice. In fact, many measures introduced by the Liberals through bills C-59 and C-75 will potentially weaken punishments for these murders. “The International Criminal Court has the power to prosecute citizens of parties to the Rome Statute. Canada is a party to this statute, and Justin Trudeau should be doing everything in his power to bring justice to the victims of ISIS. Conservatives call on the Prime Minister to refer any known Canadian ISIS terrorists to the International Criminal Court where they can finally be prosecuted for their abhorrent crimes ...


… as well as this at the end of last year:


> … Conservatives continue to call on Justin Trudeau to implement the following measures:
> •Stop Bill C-59, which makes it harder to bring terrorists to justice.
> *•Focus resources on arresting returning ISIS terrorists instead of misguided attempts at reintegration programs, like poetry lessons.*
> •Use existing tools to restrict the movement of known terrorists, such as peace bonds.
> •Ensure surveillance of returning ISIS terrorists.
> •Reform international bodies which are failing to bring ISIS terrorists to justice ...


… but I haven't read any "we will …" statements - as usual, I stand to be corrected.  The "arrest 'em as they arrive" would be how I'd bet a Team Blue government would deal with it, and it would make for very interesting court proceedings based on how complicated it might be.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting angle to the "One NATO member steps aside while another NATO member vows to take on forces (including some Canadians) fighting ISIS" story - this from Brit media:


> ... (Turkish President) Erdogan later vowed he would work with European governments to deal with any foreign ISIS prisoners in the region.
> 
> "There are (ISIS prisoners) from France, Germany, other countries. They say 'We don't want to have control over them,'" Mr Erdogan said.
> 
> "We can't look after them. What can be done about this? They are going to work on that and I instructed our colleagues to work on that too".
> 
> Kurdish leaders have long asked the west for help saying their overstretched army can't repel a Turkish invasion and guard the more than 15,000 captured prisoners the same time ...


Meanwhile, lookit who Brit media says shows up in some recent video from the area ...


> The parents of 'Jihadi Jack' have spotted him in footage of a Syrian jail and begged for him to be sent back to the UK.
> 
> Jack Letts was pictured just days ago lying of the floor of an overcrowded jail in the north of the country.
> 
> In the footage he is alongside dozens of fellow Islamic State (IS) prisoners, also in orange jumpsuits, who have been captured by Kurdish militia.
> 
> The 23-year-old Muslim convert from Oxfordshire fled to the Middle East to join ISIS and has been stripped of his UK citizenship.
> 
> His mother, Sally Lane, spoke to the Mail on Sunday and pleaded for him to be allowed to return and face trial in this country ...


op:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Think tank's take on ISIS/Daesh's push to get fighters outta Syrian camps ...


> Key Takeaway: ISIS has mounted low-level efforts to replenish its ranks from members held in detention facilities and displacement camps across Syria and Iraq since late 2018. Some ISIS members have paid bribes to guards in order to buy their freedom. Others have rioted or mounted small-scale escapes attempts from at least four detention facilities in Syria and Iraq since September 2018. ISIS is likely preparing more coordinated and sophisticated operations to free its detained members in Iraq and Syria. The largest risk likely faces the network of makeshift and undermanned detention facilities spread across Northern Syria ...


More @ link


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ….The largest risk likely faces the network of makeshift and undermanned detention facilities spread across Northern Syria ...


I can't imagine Daesh exploiting a Turkish attack on Kurds as a distraction....   op:

I'm a fan of the article's source, Institute for the Study of War;  it's a regular part of my morning coffee, 'overnight traffic' reading (although I haven't gotten there yet since I'm been busy watching Canada getting crushed by RSA  :'( .  

Rumour has it that the Confrence of Defence Associations Institute is attempting to get the ISW Director, Kim Kagan, and her husband Fred up to speak at their spring Defence & Security Conference.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm a fan of the article's source, Institute for the Study of War;  it's a regular part of my morning coffee, 'overnight traffic' reading (although I haven't gotten there yet since I'm been busy watching Canada getting crushed by RSA  :'( .


I like their material because it's a bit more accessible than some other think-tanky-academic out there.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I can't imagine Daesh exploiting a Turkish attack on Kurds as a distraction....   op:


Funny you should mention that ...


> According to the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), at least three Daesh suicide bombers on Wednesday attacked its military positions in Syria's Raqqa ...


Meanwhile, in other news ...


> Canada and other Western countries that have failed to repatriate citizens who fought for the Islamic State and now are detained in northern Syria, may soon face an even deeper conundrum about what to do about them, experts warned Monday.
> 
> The Trump administration has signalled it is prepared to stand aside in the event of a Turkish invasion of the region, which would be aimed at dislodging the Syrian Kurdish People's Protection Units (YPG), a U.S. ally in the war against ISIS.
> 
> Stark criticism from Republicans in Congress forced U.S. President Donald Trump to temper earlier tweets by saying he would stop Turkey from going too far with an incursion, but the gyrations have created turmoil among policymakers and allies.
> 
> Since the fall of ISIS, the Syrian Democratic Forces, led by the YPG, have been holding approximately 11,000 ISIS detainees, including 2,000 foreign fighters, in more than two dozen camps.
> 
> There are as many as 32 Canadians (six men, nine women and 17 children)  in two camps in northeastern Syria, according to research by Amarnath Amarasingam, an assistant professor at Queen's University's school of religion, which was published in Policy Options magazine last summer.
> 
> In the face of a Turkish military offensive, they could soon be free ...


----------



## brihard

We (the collective Western we) have an opportunity to exercise some choice in how it’s gonna suck.

But not choosing is a choice. And either way it’s gonna suck.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Aussies ...


> The Australian government has no immediate plan to rescue its citizens – including 20 women and more than 40 children – stranded in dangerous and squalid camps in northern Syria, arguing it will not risk more Australian lives trying to get them out.
> 
> (...)
> 
> The Australian defence minister, Linda Reynolds, said on Tuesday the Australian government was in “close contact” with its allies, including the US, after the shock announcement from Trump that America would be withdrawing its troops from the region as well as support for Kurdish allies, effectively green-lighting a Turkish invasion of northern Syria.
> 
> “It is too early yet to speculate on the consequences this might have for Australian policy in the region, as it is a very rapidly evolving new situation,” Reynolds said. “We will continue to monitor and act accordingly when we have more information to hand.” ...


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Funny you should mention that


  :not-again:  Such prescience wasn't a stretch.... 

[nor do I have any such skill with lottery numbers]


----------



## The Bread Guy

This just in ...


> The U.S. military has no plans to intervene if Syrian Kurdish forces abandon a constellation of Islamic State prisons in Syria to confront a possible Turkish invasion, officials said Tuesday.
> 
> Kurdish officials said that guards were still in place at the more than 20 prisons and camps under their control but were prepared to move, raising the possibility that about 11,000 militants and their families could escape.
> 
> U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to describe the evolving U.S. strategy in Syria, said the Pentagon did not have enough forces to oversee the prisons if those facilities were left unguarded, nor a mandate to do so.
> 
> The Trump administration has said the responsibility for the militants detained by the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), the main U.S. partner against the Islamic State in Syria, would fall to the Turkish government if it goes ahead with the incursion ...


... with more on the overall TUR push into SYR in another dedicated thread here.


----------



## Jarnhamar

To quote a sign I've seen at 2 or 3 Base Clothing counters:



> A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on our part


----------



## The Bread Guy

While the U.S. presses European countries to take their ISIS-ites back, there's this ...


> The U.S. military is taking custody of several dozen high-value Islamic State detainees, including two British men accused of involvement in the militant group’s summary executions of American and other Western hostages. The action is designed to prevent their escape or release from camps in Syria, where they have been guarded by Kurdish forces now under threat from Turkey’s incursion, according to U.S. officials.
> 
> The move, a rare instance in which the United States has taken direct responsibility for Islamic State prisoners in Iraq and Syria, comes as U.S. officials scramble to ensure that Ankara’s unfolding military operation does not permit the Islamic State to regain strength.
> 
> The roughly 40 individuals being taken into U.S. custody, all considered important Islamic State figures, previously had been held in a constellation of small prisons in northeast Syria, run by Syrian Kurdish forces who have been the Pentagon’s primary partner against the Islamic State in Syria. The Kurds are now pulling guards from those facilities to confront the unfolding Turkish assault ...


More @ link or in attached, shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ….comes as U.S. officials scramble to ensure that Ankara’s unfolding military operation does not permit the Islamic State to regain strength.


Curious how they intend to "ensure" that... while in full Pontius Pilate hand-washing mode.   :


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Which I think is the CPC plan of action, if you show up on our border, we arrest you.


Also, just spotted this looking through for other election campaign info on page 39 of the Liberal platform …


> … To better coordinate efforts to prosecute terror suspects to the fullest extent of the law, we will move forward with the creation of a *Director of Terrorism Prosecutions*. This new office will make sure that Canadians who travel abroad to join terrorist organizations, or who participate in terrorist organizations here at home, are brought to justice ...


Last mention of I could find of this term goes way back to 2010, where it was one of the recommendations of the Air India final report.  It would report to the AG and work with the National Security Advisor & Co., but somewhat differently than the way the Director of Public Prosecutions works:  "A quasi arm’s-length agency like PPSC is, by design, independent from government and, as such, is unsuited to make determinations about the public interest where terrorism cases are involved."  More on the concept from the 2010 report attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest on who's taken how many ...


> With the decision by the United States to withdraw from its positions in northern Syria, and Turkish forces moving in, the fate of thousands of suspected Islamic State detainees remains unclear.
> 
> The detainees and their families - held by Kurdish-led forces - include foreigners from various parts of the world.
> 
> The US has called on foreign states to repatriate their nationals, accusing European nations of refusing to do so.
> 
> So, how many foreign nationals are being held by Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) and have any countries taken them back?
> 
> The families of suspected IS militants are being held at a number of camps for displaced people in northern Syria.
> 
> By far the largest is at al-Hol. It is housing almost 70,000 people, more than 94% of them women and children, of whom 11,000 are foreign nationals.
> 
> Additionally, the SDF says some 12,000 suspected IS fighters are held in seven prisons in north-east Syria, of whom about 4,000 are estimated to be foreigners (that is, neither Syrian nor Iraqi).
> 
> A US government report published in August has a lower figure for foreign adult combatants held in northern Syria - 2,000, originating from 50 countries.
> 
> Of these, about 800 are from European nations while the rest are from the Middle East, north Africa or Asia.
> 
> To put that into context, a study last year by King's College's International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation estimated more than 41,000 foreign nationals had joined IS in Iraq and Syria between April 2013 and June 2018.
> 
> Has anyone taken back their nationals?
> The United Nations has said countries should take responsibility for their own citizens unless they are to be prosecuted in Syria in accordance with international standards.
> 
> Many countries have been reluctant to do so, worried about public opinion and the legal challenges of dealing with citizens who joined IS.
> 
> Human Rights Watch has described government-facilitated repatriations of foreign nationals as "piecemeal."
> 
> It says more than 1,200 foreign nationals - mainly children - have been repatriated from both Syria and Iraq to Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Russia, Kosovo, and Turkey.
> 
> But other nations have taken back only very small numbers:
> 
> France: 18 children
> US: 16 adults and children
> Germany: fewer than 10
> Australia: eight children
> Sweden: seven children
> Norway: five children
> 
> In some cases, foreign nationals have been transferred to Iraqi jurisdiction and tried in that country's courts. Earlier this year, four Frenchmen were sentenced to death in Iraq in a judicial process heavily criticised at the time.
> 
> Some foreign governments have revoked citizenship to prevent the return of suspected IS members - for example in the case of Shamima Begum, from the UK, who is being held at an SDF-run camp in Syria.
> 
> Far larger numbers of foreigners who joined IS are likely to have made their own way home before Kurdish-led forces captured the jihadists' last pocket of territory in March ...


More @ link


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest from Global in the midst of the fracas - highlight mine ...


> Sitting in a dim room at a detention camp in northern Syria, Kimberly Polman was feeling vulnerable. ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi had vowed to free female prisoners like herself, and she believed him.
> 
> “I take it seriously,” Polman said. “These people don’t play.”
> 
> She should know: the former British Columbia resident spent almost four years living under the Islamic State, until she and her husband were taken into custody nine months ago.
> 
> Now she is a detainee of the Kurdish forces, one of thousands in their custody because their own governments haven’t taken them back.
> 
> But what awaits Polman became even more uncertain this week, when Turkey launched an invasion of northern Syria.
> 
> The Turkish offensive shattered the relative calm that Kurdish forces had won six months ago by defeating ISIS and capturing roughly 100,000 fighters and their families.
> 
> And with the Kurds now occupied at their northern border, the incursion has created an opening for ISIS, one the terror group has been quick to exploit.
> 
> (...)
> 
> _*“We have reached out to Syrian Kurdish officials to seek information on Canadians in their custody and have sought assurances from Turkey that any Canadians detained in the region would be handled in accordance with international law,” said Global Affairs Canada spokesperson Barbara Harvey.*_
> 
> A Muslim convert who travelled to Syria after befriending a man she met online, Polman stands out among the detainees arrested during the final throes of the so-called ISIS caliphate.
> 
> She is in her 40s and, unlike many women at the camps, does not wear a black niqab. In an interview, she was regretful and described a “deradicalization project” she was working on.
> 
> But Polman is typical in one sense: while the public debate over whether to repatriate Canadian ISIS suspects captured in Syria has focused mostly on the men, they are far outnumbered by women.
> 
> During two visits to the region, Global News found few Canadian men at prisons for ISIS detainees. Three identified themselves as Canadian citizens in interviews and another two were confirmed as Canadians. A sixth is detained in Turkey.
> 
> But at least 11 Canadian women are believed to be at Al-Hawl and Roj camps, along with almost two dozen children. Another two women are believed to be hiding in the region but have not yet been caught ...


More @ link


----------



## Jarnhamar

> A Muslim convert who travelled to Syria after befriending a man she met online, Polman stands out among the detainees arrested during the final throes of the so-called ISIS caliphate.




Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


----------



## Edward Campbell

My _personal_, and I admit idiosyncratic and flawed position is:

1. I really wish we could do something about the children. But I don't really know what or how. I'm not even sure what is "best" for them ... except that I think that they cannot be allowed to be with their parents who are either irredeemably evil or stupid...  or both;

2. I want nothing, ever, to be done, that might in any way "help" the adults who decided to go to help _Da'esh_/ISIL/ISIS. While, morally, I oppose sending Canadian military "his squads" to kill them, I don't care if they die at the hands of anyone else;

3. I don't want any Canadians diplomates or aid workers being put at risk to "help" these evil of stupid (or both) adults; and

4. In the unlikely event that any of them make it home, I want them locked up for a loooooong time ... for being evil or stupid or both.


----------



## Halifax Tar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Latest from Global in the midst of the fracas - highlight mine ...More @ link





> A Muslim convert who travelled to Syria after befriending a man she met online, Polman stands out among the detainees arrested during the final throes of the so-called ISIS caliphate.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberly_Gwen_Polman



> Ian Austen, one of The New York Times's Canadian correspondents wrote about Polman, after discussing her with Rukmini Callimachi, The New York Times's reporter who first found her, in the refugee camp in Syria.[11] He wrote that Callimachi speculated that she first identified herself as a Canadian to her American captors because she would be treated more leniently, as a Canadian, only to realize that Canadians were "in limbo". Callamachi speculated that Polman started to identify as an American when she realized that while Americans might face prosecution upon repatriation, at least they were being repatriated.



Canadian when convenient ?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Canadian when convenient ?


Sometimes the nature of dual citizenship. Thanks for a bit more of the REST of the story.

A bit more @ the original NY Times article here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

What the Brits _*might*_ be doing ...


> Britain will consider repatriating orphans and unaccompanied children in north-east Syria if they are alerted to their presence by local military or aid agencies.
> 
> Home Office officials said the UK would assist British orphans trapped in Syria after the Turkish invasion, reversing a previous policy that children had to be taken out of the country before they might get any help.
> 
> Officials would not say exactly how children might be extracted from the country, implying that SAS or other special forces, still understood to be based in the region, could be involved in the repatriations.
> 
> They said children thought to be British would be assessed on a case-by-case basis once removed from Syria and only orphans and unaccompanied children would be eligible to be brought back to the UK.
> 
> The shift in policy comes after a BBC reporting team found three English-speaking orphans aged 10 or under in a Syria camp over the weekend. The children are believed to have been taken by their parents to live under Islamic State five years ago ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Survey says ...


> A clear majority of Canadians do not want the government to do anything to bring back ISIS fighters detained abroad.
> 
> In a poll conducted exclusively for Global News, Ipsos asked respondents whether they supported the position that “a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, and that Canada should do what it can to bring Canadian nationals home to Canada, even if they’ve been fighting for ISIS.”
> 
> Only 29 per cent agreed with the statement.
> 
> In contrast, 71 per cent said “we should not do anything to help bring these Canadians back to Canada.” ...


More @ link

From Ipsos (highlights mine) ...


> ... Bill C-24 is a law that aims to strip dual citizens of their Canadian passports if they are convicted of crimes of terrorism, treason or espionage against Canada, or take up arms against Canada. This has been specifically debated in the case of Canadian nationals who have fought with ISIS in Syria and wish to return to Canada.
> 
> A majority of Canadians appear to be supportive of the proposed law, with seven in ten (71%) saying ‘we should not do anything to help bring these Canadians back to Canada’. Canadians aged 55+ (83%) are most likely to hold this view, followed by those aged 35-54 (70%) and those 18-34 (56%).
> 
> By contrast, three in ten (29%) think that ‘a Canadian is a Canadian, and we should help bring these Canadians back.’ This view is significantly more prevalent among those aged 18-34 (44%), compared to those 35-54 (30%) or 55+ (17%). Regionally, Quebecers (39%) are more likely to hold this opinion than residents of any other province.
> 
> _These are some of the findings of an Ipsos poll conducted between October 11 and 13, on behalf of Global News. For this survey, a sample of n = 2,204 Canadians aged 18+ was interviewed. A sample of n = 1,504 was interviewed online, via the Ipsos I-Say panel and non-panel sources, and respondents earn a nominal incentive for their participation. A sample of n = 700 Canadians aged 18+ was interviewed by live-interview telephone interviewers by landline and cellphone, using random-digit dialing. Quotas and weighting were employed to balance demographics to ensure that the sample's composition reflects that of the adult population according to Census data and to provide results intended to approximate the sample universe (weighting efficiency = 66.9%). The precision of Ipsos polls which include non-probability sampling is measured using a credibility interval. In this case, the poll is accurate to within ± 2.4 percentage points, 19 times out of 20, had all Canadians been polled. The credibility interval will be wider among subsets of the population. All sample surveys and polls may be subject to other sources of error, including, but not limited to coverage error, and measurement error. Ipsos abides by the disclosure standards established by the CRIC, found here: https://canadianresearchinsightscouncil.ca/standards/_


More @ link or in attached.


----------



## Jarnhamar

*They'll come to kill us': Canadian trapped in Syria pleads to UN for help* 


> LONDON -- “Dear United Nations...”
> 
> The letter was written by hand on paper that was torn from a notebook.It’s dated October 16, 2019, from a detention camp in Northern Syria. The writer is a Canadian, speaking for 10 women, all once married to ISIS fighters. The sky overhead is now crowded with fighter jets and drones.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/national/world/2019/10/18/1_4645332.html


The letter dated 16 October was torn from a book and sent to the UN. Except when you look at the pictures in the news article the letter is still in the book.

So someone took a picture of the letter, sent the letter to the UN then sent pictures of the letters while inside the tent to the media? 
Seems a bit odd..


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> So someone took a picture of the letter, sent the letter to the UN then sent pictures of the letters while inside the tent to the media? Seems a bit odd..


A U.N. or other NGO worker in the camp who moves back & forth between the camp & their base area/office/HQ could have lots of chances to hook up to the interwebs, no?  Or once it gets into the U.N. IM system, _anybody_ could share it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I don't know. I'm not suggesting it's fake, just something about it seems off. Don't you find it even a bit strange? 

Saying the letter was written on paper torn from a book and sent to the UN. But it's clearly written while still in the book and photographed and shared online and the story done up and posted 2 days later.  Was it mailed from a post office in the camp? Or maybe the person taking the picture will be carrying the letter to the UN? 

If there's a connection to the internet why not send an email instead of trusting a letter to find its way. Or making a video, which would be more personal than a letter. Or pictures of the women?



Edit- mods could I ask that my posts be moved to this thread? I thibk it might be more appropriate?

Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Edit- mods could I ask that my posts be moved to this thread? I thibk it might be more appropriate?
> 
> Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)


Good idea - done.


			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Saying the letter was written on paper torn from a book and sent to the UN. But it's clearly written while still in the book and photographed and shared online and the story done up and posted 2 days later.  Was it mailed from a post office in the camp? Or maybe the person taking the picture will be carrying the letter to the UN?
> 
> If there's a connection to the internet why not send an email instead of trusting a letter to find its way. Or making a video, which would be more personal than a letter. Or pictures of the women?


Seen.  Do we know the writer had access to the internet?  I suspect the camps themselves may be ... spartan.  With combinations of the internet and workers moving in and out of the camp, there could be a ton of different combinations to get an image of a letter out there.

So far, a very quick Google-fu shows the CTV story's the only place that has those specific images.  I'll keep hunting & share anything, so that _suggests_ they may have come from whatever intermediary straight to CTV.  We know when the story was published, but we don't know who else got images and/or the hard copy beforehand.

And if we really want to peel the onion layers, just because someone wrote 16 Oct on a piece of paper doesn't mean that's when it was written 

As for pictures or videos of the women, if the camps are still as ISIS-ridden as some say, I wouldn't want to be the one suggesting a selfie in them parts  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

A couple of perspectives, this one from academics/analysts who've visited the camps ...


> As we head into the Canadian federal election next week, one of the many pressing issues facing the new government will be the question of what to do with the nearly 40 Canadian men, women, and children currently in Kurdish custody in northeastern Syria.
> 
> We visited the camps and the prisons over the course of a week earlier this month, and the challenges we documented were immense and since the invasion by Turkey, those problems are only getting worse. On the day we visited al-Hol camp, which houses most of the Canadian women and their children, Kurdish forces supposedly interrupted a meeting of the “morality police” who were, apparently, getting set to punish one of their fellow women for some sort of religious violation.
> 
> The Kurdish police were able to stop the meeting, and arrest some of the women. Upset by these arrests, several women in the camp began, with babies and toddlers in their arms and at their feet, chanting and moving aggressively towards Kurdish police and SDF officers. Kurdish police started firing their weapons into the air to disperse the crowds. We were told it was safer if we left. What happened next is unclear, but the situation clearly escalated with several women killed and injured. It was a vivid illustration of the volatile situation in the camp, one housing over 50,000 children under the age of 12 from over 55 countries. The prisons, housing the male ISIS suspects, is little different.
> 
> What is perhaps most striking is the dichotomy between the realities on the ground and the nature of the policy debate in Canada. We have heard several arguments against repatriation during the many years we have been involved in this debate. We address some of the most widely held myths below:
> 
> *Myth 1: They Made Their Choice. It is Not Our Problem.*
> 
> (...)
> 
> *Myth 2: If They Come Back Here, We Won’t Be Able to Charge Them, and They Will Go Free*
> 
> (...)
> 
> *Myth 3: Canada Doesn’t Have the Resources to Deal with Them*
> 
> (...)
> 
> *Myth 4: An International Court is the Answer*
> 
> (...)
> 
> *Myth 5: It is Too Dangerous for Canada to Send Officials*
> 
> (...)


... and another broader news piece quoting several folks:


> n the midst of an uncertain future in northeastern Syria where Turkish forces have been attacking Syrian Kurdish positions for more than a week, some experts say the situation should press Canada to act on repatriating its detained citizens in ISIS detention camps.
> 
> Turkey launched its offensive into Syria on Oct. 9 after U.S. President Donald Trump announced American troops would vacate the Turkish-Syrian border area.
> 
> Following the onset of the offensive, a Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) commander said that guarding the camps that hold thousands of detained ISIS members as well as some who lived in regions under the control of ISIS would not be a “priority.” In northeastern Syria, the SDF includes the Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) and Women’s Protection Units (YPJ). Turkey views the SDF as being connected to the separatist Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which is listed as a terrorist entity by the Canadian government.
> 
> A five-day ceasefire was negotiated between Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and U.S. Vice-President Mike Pence on Oct. 17. But before the ceasefire was 24 hours old, Kurds accused Turkey of violating the truce. Turkey denied fighting was taking place.
> 
> Under the ceasefire agreement, Turkey and the United States would jointly coordinate the ISIS detention camps and the internally displaced people in regions formerly under the control of ISIS.
> 
> NBC News reported last week before the ceasefire was reached that SDF guards at one camp that holds 5,000, threatened to leave the camp to go to the front-lines.
> 
> “Ironically, the Government of Canada was saying for the last 18 months that it was too dangerous for them to send consular officials into Syria—even as journalists, law enforcement officials from other countries, and researchers were in and out of the country,” said Amarnath Amarasingam, a professor at Queen’s University who is an expert on foreign fighters, in an email to The Hill Times.
> 
> “Now, it has kind of become a self-fulfilling prophecy,” he said. Prof. Amarasingam visited a SDF-controlled ISIS detention camp before the Turkish offensive began ...


More @ links


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting approach by Russia ...


> Russia has taken DNA samples from 49 orphans in Syria to confirm their relations to Russian citizens and clear their return home, Russia’s top children’s rights official said Thursday.
> 
> Under a program spearheaded by Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov, Russia has worked on returning women and children linked to Russians who fought for the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq. Kadyrov last year called for mass DNA tests in his majority-Muslim region to help repatriate Russian children from the war-torn countries.
> 
> Russia was granted access to 49 orphans held in Syrian jails and camps for DNA testing, Interfax cited presidential children’s rights ombudsperson Anna Kuznetsova as saying. Some children are said to be younger than 6 months.
> 
> Kuznetsova said that Russian citizens identified as the children’s relatives have also submitted DNA samples to establish family kinship.
> 
> An Emergency Situations Ministry flight from neighboring Iraq with 32 Russian children on board is expected soon, Kuznetsova said. The remaining children, she added, will return from Iraq by civilian aircraft.
> 
> Meanwhile, the chief of Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) has warned that adult Islamic State fighters should undergo close vetting by the countries where they’re being held as well as by Russia before being cleared for repatriation ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

_ A month before a Canadian convicted of trying to join ISIS was released from an Ontario prison in June, he was denied parole on the grounds he posed too great a risk, newly released records show.


Prosecutors wanted him to serve six yearsbut on Feb. 28, a judge sentenced him to four years and one month, saying he had taken responsibility for his actions and had been “a positive role model.”_

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/toronto-man-who-tried-to-join-isis-was-freed-month-after-his-release-was-declared-an-undue-risk/ar-BBWWoh9


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> _ A month before a Canadian convicted of trying to join ISIS was released from an Ontario prison in June, he was denied parole on the grounds he posed too great a risk, newly released records show.
> 
> 
> Prosecutors wanted him to serve six yearsbut on Feb. 28, a judge sentenced him to four years and one month, saying he had taken responsibility for his actions and had been “a positive role model.”_
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/toronto-man-who-tried-to-join-isis-was-freed-month-after-his-release-was-declared-an-undue-risk/ar-BBWWoh9


More backstory on this guy here and here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> What the Brits _*might*_ be doing ...


What the Brits _are_ doing ...


> The UK government is to repatriate the first British citizens from the area of north-eastern Syria formerly under the control of the Islamic State (IS) group, the BBC has learned.
> 
> For security reasons, further details of the repatriation cannot be given.
> 
> The individuals being brought out of the region will be returned to the UK in the coming days.
> 
> Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said the "innocent" children should "never have been subjected to the horrors of war".
> 
> He added: "We have facilitated their return home, because it was the right thing to do.
> 
> "Now they must be allowed the privacy and given the support to return to a normal life." ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

And in Holland ...


> A Dutch appeals court has overturned a lower court’s order that the government must attempt to bring home children whose mothers traveled to Syria to join Islamic extremist groups.
> 
> Friday’s decision upheld the government’s appeal against that ruling. Reasons for the decision will be published next month.
> 
> Justice Minister Ferd Grapperhaus has welcomed the decision as supporting the government’s policy of not repatriating women and children from Syria if they went there to join the Islamic State group.
> 
> Grapperhaus says “these women made the choice, with or without children, to travel to IS territory and join a terrorist organization. The Cabinet will not actively bring them back from the region.”
> 
> Lawyers representing 23 women and their 56 children sought an injunction earlier this month forcing the government to repatriate them.


----------



## The Bread Guy

In Ireland ...

_*"Lisa Smith: Isis recruit and former member of Irish military arrested after arriving in Dublin"*_
_*"Lisa Smith arrested on suspicion of terrorist offences"*_
_*"Gardaí have arrested Lisa Smith on suspicion of terrorist offences following her return to Ireland this morning.*  Her two-year-old daughter is being cared for by relatives, gardaí said.  The Islamic state supporter landed in Dublin airport with her daughter shortly after 10am.  She was handed over to the gardaí on arrival. Footage from RTÉ showed a woman, apparently Ms Smith, being escorted off the plane, covered by a blanket ..."_


----------



## brihard

Canadian arrested in Turkey this summer charged with terror offences

Ikar Mao, 22, of Guelph, Ont., was detained near the Syrian border but returned to Canada in October
Katie Nicholson, Jason Ho · CBC News · Posted: Dec 06, 2019 12:16 PM ET

A Canadian man detained in Turkey this past summer and accused of having ISIS propaganda on his phone was charged by RCMP Friday with terror-related offences.

Ikar Mao, 22, of Guelph, Ont., faces one count of participation in activity of a terrorist group and one count of leaving Canada to participate in activity of a terrorist group.

Each charge carries a maximum sentence of 10 years.

In a news release, the RCMP said the charges came "following a national security investigation" by the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team in Ontario. 

"I want to reassure the citizens of the Greater Toronto Area and all Canadians that our primary focus is the safety and protection of the public at all times," RCMP Chief Supt. Michael LeSage said in the release.

Couple returned to Canada in October
Turkish authorities arrested Mao and his wife near the Syrian border this past summer.

The newlywed couple were held for three months before being released and returning to Canada in October.

As CBC News first reported late Thursday, a Turkish court heard allegations that the phone belonging to Mao had received ISIS videos via Telegram, an encrypted messaging app, and that the couple left a letter for their families saying they intended to join ISIS.

The videos depict ISIS soldiers with guns espousing the militant group's propaganda, the court heard.

Records viewed by CBC News said Mao and his wife denied that they had left their families to join ISIS and told the court they just wanted to live in a Muslim country.

Mao said he hadn't intentionally sought out the videos, but that they had loaded automatically while he was surfing the internet. 

In the past several weeks, Mao has been living under strict court-imposed conditions, including wearing a GPS monitor, abiding by a curfew and having limited access to the internet. Ontario Court of Justice documents cited a "fear of terrorism offence."

The case is under a publication ban, and it's not clear what evidence Canadian authorities are relying on for their case. 

Mao is scheduled to appear in a court in Brampton, Ont., about 45 km northwest of Toronto, later Friday. 

- - - - - - - - - -


BZ to the INSET guys on this one. Using information from foreign sources to build a case - particularly from that part of the world - is fraught with challenges, so I applaud them for getting this to the point where crown would go for it.

Now cue the usual inane stuff about $10 million, etc etc...


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> What the Brits _are_ doing ...
> 
> 
> 
> The UK government is to repatriate the first British citizens from the area of north-eastern Syria formerly under the control of the Islamic State (IS) group, the BBC has learned.
> 
> For security reasons, further details of the repatriation cannot be given.
> 
> The individuals being brought out of the region will be returned to the UK in the coming days ...
Click to expand...

Not so fast???


> Fears are growing that the Foreign Office has paved the way for British Islamic State captives held in Syria to be handed over to the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, which is accused of war crimes including mass torture and executions.
> 
> Human rights groups argue that, as they face pressure to repatriate Britons detainedin Syria, ministers’ inaction may result in the transfer of UK nationals to Assad’s forces.
> 
> The legal charity Reprieve says that differing statements from the Foreign Office indicate that the government has diluted its previous opposition to British nationals being prosecuted in Assad-controlled Syria ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

One case ...


> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said it was “too dangerous” to send in Canadian diplomats to remove four-year-old Canadian orphan Amira from the al-Hol detention camp -- after Kurdish authorities confirmed they found the child over the weekend.
> 
> In a one-on-one interview with CTV News’ Chief Anchor and Senior Editor Lisa LaFlamme, Trudeau said that he was aware of the little girl’s story, but that the safety of Canadians who work in the Middle East needs to be considered.
> 
> “Right now we've qualified it as too dangerous for Canadian officials to go into Syria and into those refugee camps,” he said.
> 
> It has been almost a year since Amira was discovered wandering alone in the Syrian town of Baghouz after her family -- Canadians who had left the country in 2014 to fight for ISIS -- were killed in an airstrike.
> 
> Amira was taken to the detention camp in northeastern Syria where she was living with a surrogate family, in a situation that Minister of Public Safety Ralph Goodale has previously called “horrendous.”
> 
> Life inside the camp is often described as desperate, with lack of water and access to medical care major concerns for the more than 11,000 foreign women and children of ISIS fighters are detained.
> 
> It is estimated that at least 33 Canadians women and children are detained in al-Hol and a second nearby camp.
> 
> Amira’s uncle and grandparents in Canada have been calling on the Canadian government to rescue the child for months -- using other countries like Sweden, Australia and France as examples of governments who have sent in personnel to extract women and children left behind after the years of war with the caliphate.
> 
> The government has previously told Amira’s family that she must undergo a DNA test to prove that she is a Canadian citizen before she can be issued travel papers -- which would take months.
> 
> This past summer Amira’s uncle, who wishes to remain anonymous, was determined to go to Syria himself to try to locate her and bring her home, but Kurdish Foreign Affairs Minister Dr. Abdulkarim Omar advised him not to travel until her location was confirmed.
> 
> This weekend, Kurdish authorities sent a message saying that Amira had finally been located.
> 
> “We informed the Canadian authorities about her whereabouts,” Omar said. “The Canadian government is aware of Amira’s situation right now.”
> 
> Canada has yet to formally request the child’s release, something her uncle is hopeful will change now that she has finally been located ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

More on what the Brits are (at least reportedly) doing ...


> A Special Air Service (SAS) team rescued three orphans born to parents fighting for the Islamic State (ISIS).
> 
> The parents of the three children had been killed during a Coalition airstrike earlier this year. The rescue operation took place sometime during the last two months. The SAS element was accompanied by a few Foreign Office personnel.
> 
> According to the British Foreign Office, more such rescues will take place in the coming weeks and months.
> 
> Since 2015, when an SAS Sabre Squadron was first deployed in Iraq to assist the U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, the British Army’s Tier One unit has suffered one fatality: In March 2018, Sergeant Matt Tonroe and Delta Force Master Sergeant John Dunbar were killed during a raid against an ISIS high-value target (HVT) in Manbij, Syria, in March of 2018. (SOFREP previously published the exclusive story behind the deaths of the two operators.) The SAS has also suffered a number of wounded operators in action during its fight against the Jihadist terrorists.
> 
> The three children rescued have been received by foster parents back in the United Kingdom. Their identities remain, and for a good reason, hidden.
> 
> European nations are still struggling to figure out what to do with their nationals, known as Foreign Terrorist Fighters (FTFs) who went off to join and fight for the Islamic State. The issue has even become a point of diplomatic tension between nations like France and Germany. U.S. President Trump has been pressing his European counterparts to assume responsibility for their nationals and take them back. But we aren’t talking about a couple of dozens of shitheads. More than 40,000 people from around the world went off to join ISIS; approximately 5,000 of them hail from Europe. The majority of those who have survived the Coalition’s raids and airstrikes are detainees in prisoner camps guarded by the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF). A lot of those camps, however, have been jeopardized by the Turkish invasion of Northern Syria, thereby bringing an additional sense of urgency to the matter.
> 
> A convenient solution to this diplomatic and political conundrum would be to strip FTFs of their citizenship. But this can only happen if they are dual-citizens, in which case it often becomes a race between the countries concerned of which will be the one that first strips the person in question of their citizenship. The British have already stripped citizenship from over 100 FTFs. The majority of the FTFs, however, have only one citizenship, muddying the waters even more ...


More @ link


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit of one Canadian's story ...


> After spending two weeks in northeastern Syria, a Canadian man finally got to hold his four-year-old orphaned niece in his arms. He was able to show her pictures of her grandparents in Toronto, and then he was forced to leave the country -- without her.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Amira and her uncle had an hour together in crowded surroundings, before she was taken back to join the other children, perhaps expecting her uncle would return the next day and take her to Canada.
> 
> But that never happened.
> 
> Just days before, there had been extremely good news. At long last, Global Affairs had accepted Amira’s identity, removing the biggest obstacle in her struggle.
> 
> I won’t name the official who sent the note, but for the record, here is what she said:
> 
> “I would like to inform you that DNA testing will not be required, as the Government of Canada has now established Amira’s identity and links to Canada.”
> 
> For the family, here was the best part:
> 
> “This means that she is now eligible to receive Canadian citizenship.”
> 
> The uncle learned one crucial detail in his meetings with Kurdish officials. They told him they would be happy to release Amira, once a Canadian diplomat had travelled to the region to make a formal request.
> 
> That apparently was a red line. Canada has consistently argued the situation is too dangerous to offer consular services, even though many other countries have done exactly that.
> 
> In response to written questions, a Global Affairs spokesman told me Canada is “actively engaged on this case with local authorities,” but would not confirm Amira’s citizenship status.
> 
> “We are likewise in regular contact with the family of the child’s deceased parents and are working with them on this sensitive and complex situation -- driven by the best interests of the child.”
> 
> (...)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Possible Kurdish solution?


> Syrian Kurdish officials seem firm on moving ahead with their plans to put captured Islamic State (IS) foreign fighters on trial in Syria, despite little international support.
> 
> Nearly one year after declaring the physical defeat of IS’s so-called caliphate in eastern Syria, Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), a Kurdish-led military alliance backed by the U.S., says it is ready to try IS foreign fighters through its local judicial system.
> 
> “Since all evidences, witnesses and victims [of IS fighters] are present in our region, we have proposed to hold their trials here.” said Kamal Akif, a spokesperson for the foreign relations office at the Kurdish-led administration in northeast Syria.
> 
> “We have been discussing this issue with all sides,” he told VOA.
> 
> The SDF holds about 12,000 IS fighters, including 2,000 foreign fighters who hail from about 50 countries. There are also about 12,000 foreign women and children affiliated with the terror group that are held in detention camps in eastern Syria.
> 
> Many of the countries IS fighters come from have largely declined to take them back. Thus, the SDF hopes its new proposal would garner enough support from countries such as the U.S., France, Britain and Germany.
> 
> “So far we have received positive vibes from our international partners,” Akif said, adding that they “could soon begin practical matters” related to trying IS foreign fighters.
> 
> Other Kurdish officials have said that proceedings would get under way as soon as this month.
> 
> International reluctance
> 
> Western governments, however, have been reluctant to approve this move.
> 
> “We believe that foreign terrorist fighters need to be returned to their home countries,” Ambassador James Jeffrey, the U.S. special envoy to Syria, told reporters in February.
> 
> “The policy should be, as we have done with some eight people brought back, is to put them on trial,” he said.
> 
> A small number of Americans who had joined IS in Syria have been sent back to the U.S. to face terrorism charges, according to U.S. officials.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Despite controlling nearly one third of Syria’s territory, the SDF-led administration is not an internationally-recognized entity. And this, experts said, would perhaps make it tricky for local Kurdish authorities in northeast Syria to carry out such trials.“
> 
> What makes this even more complicated is that the SDF autonomous administration doesn’t have formal relations with the Syrian regime, which is at least recognized internationally,” said Sadradeen Kinno, a Syrian researcher specialized in Islamist militancy.
> 
> He said that “what the SDF is trying to justify is that these foreign fighters have committed crimes on Syrian territory, therefore it is totally legal to try them for such crimes inside Syria.”
> 
> But Kurdish official Akif stressed that, “We want these trials to be in accordance with international law and standards.”
> 
> For example, unlike in neighboring Iraq, the Syrian Kurdish administration said it will not impose the death penalty on IS detainees.
> 
> SDF-run courts also have been convicting Syrian IS fighters and acquitting those who were found not involved in perpetrating violent acts.


----------



## The Bread Guy

ontheedge said:
			
		

> There was an incredible podcast called Caliphate. Ten part series or something. Went into great detail and interviews with former ISIS Canadian. Highly recommend this podcast for folks interested in the subject. Major takeaway:  proving crimes overseas is a difficult task according to canadian criminal justice standards.


Didn't know whether to put this one here, or in the Walts thread, but it appears to have come full circle ....


> A Canadian whose widely-publicized account of conducting executions for ISIS fueled public outrage and debate in the House of Commons has been charged with allegedly making it up.
> 
> Shehroze Chaudhry, 25, who has portrayed himself as a former ISIS member living freely in Canada, was charged with faking his involvement in the terrorist group.
> 
> The Burlington, Ont. resident is to appear in court on Nov. 16 to face a terrorism hoax charge. Reached at work, he declined to comment.
> 
> The son of an Oakville shawarma and kabob shop owner, Chaudhry has been posting on social media and telling reporters and others since 2016 that he was a former member of the ISIS religious police in Syria.
> 
> Two sources who know him said that, under the alias Abu Huzayfah, he was the subject of the award-winning New York Times podcast Caliphate, where he described conducting public executions.
> 
> His Facebook page profile has also described him as “Abu Huzayfa” and a “mujahid” or jihadist.
> 
> RCMP spokeswoman Sgt. Lucie Lapointe also confirmed in an email sent to Global News on Friday evening that Chaudhry was the Abu Huzayfah featured in the New York Times podcast.
> 
> The charge “stems from numerous media interviews” that were “published in multiple media outlets, aired on podcasts and featured on a television documentary, raising public safety concerns amongst Canadians,” the RCMP said in a statement ...


From the Mounties ...


> Following a lengthy investigation, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) O Division Integrated National Security Enforcement Team (OINSET) arrested and charged an individual today in connection with a hoax regarding terrorist activity.
> 
> The charge stems from numerous media interviews where the accused, Shehroze Chaudhry, a 25-year-old from Burlington, Ontario, claimed he travelled to Syria in 2016 to join the terrorist group ISIS and committed acts of terrorism. The interviews were published in multiple media outlets, aired on podcasts and featured on a television documentary, raising public safety concerns amongst Canadians.
> 
> Shehroze Chaudhry was charged with Hoax-Terrorist activity, contrary to section 83.231(1) of the Criminal Code. He is scheduled to appear at the Brampton (A. Grenville & William Davis) Courthouse located at 7755 Hurontario Street in Brampton, Ontario on November 16, 2020 at 09:00am, courtroom 104 ...


As always, presumed innocent until proven guilty via due process, but potentially going to jail because he (at least allegedly) pretended to be a terrorist?  The irony burns ....


----------



## daftandbarmy

This looks interesting....

CHALLENGES POSED BY RETURNING FOREIGN FIGHTERS

Introduction

When the US-supported Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) recovered the last pocket of territory from under the control of the Islamic State in March 2019, the problem of how to deal with the foreign fighters who had joined IS but were now seeking to return to their countries of origin (or might do so the near future) became increasingly pressing. The issue became even more urgent following President Trump's decision to withdraw US forces from northeast Syria in October 2019, which enabled Turkey's military operation in the area. In response to this offensive, Syrian Kurds affiliated with the SDF have threatened to abandon their posts guarding ISIS detention camps. The potential escape of thousands of ISIS prisoners could create an immediate security threat to countries across the world as many of these fighters could attempt to return to their home countries and carry out terror attacks there. Finally, Turkey’s forced repatriation program, which began in November 2019, returned many ISIS foreign fighters to their home countries, including those in Western Europe. Announcing the start of this policy, Turkish interior minister Süleyman Soylu said that Turkey was “not a hotel” for Islamic State detainees from other countries.4 All of these events have forced states to deal with the challenges posed by returning foreign fighters. 

https://extremism.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/zaxdzs2191/f/Challenges%20Posed%20by%20Returning%20Foreign%20Fighters.pdf


----------



## CBH99

Bread Guy said:
			
		

> Didn't know whether to put this one here, or in the Walts thread, but it appears to have come full circle ....From the Mounties ...As always, presumed innocent until proven guilty via due process, but potentially going to jail because he (at least allegedly) pretended to be a terrorist?  The irony burns ....




Wait...what??

This guy PRETENDED to be a member of ISIS, and made up stories of himself doing criminal acts in order to support his imaginary story??

Wtf... who WANTS members of the public to think they are a legit member of ISIS when they aren't?  **No proper emoji for the sheer confusion in my brain right now**


----------



## OldSolduer

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Wait...what??
> 
> This guy PRETENDED to be a member of ISIS, and made up stories of himself doing criminal acts in order to support his imaginary story??
> 
> Wtf... who WANTS members of the public to think they are a legit member of ISIS when they aren't?  **No proper emoji for the sheer confusion in my brain right now**



Is there a Stolen Valour website for the bad guys?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Is there a Stolen Valour website for the bad guys?


That's why I was torn between posting here or in the Walts/posers/wannabes thread ...


----------



## Weinie

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Wait...what??
> 
> This guy PRETENDED to be a member of ISIS, and made up stories of himself doing criminal acts in order to support his imaginary story??
> 
> Wtf... who WANTS members of the public to think they are a legit member of ISIS when they aren't?  **No proper emoji for the sheer confusion in my brain right now**



Any number of reasons why this immature phuck made this up. Cred with his buddies, street cred with potential associates, trying to get dates (lets not forget how many ladies bolted to Iraq to marry an ISIS guy), mental illness, Munchausen Syndrome, histrionic personality disorder, or trying to make money off of social media etc etc.

Nothing surprises me anymore. (Except Jennifer Aniston chose Brad Pitt over me.)


----------



## CBH99

You've still got a good chance!  She isn't with him anymore, and she's looking better than ever   8)


----------



## dapaterson

CBH99 said:
			
		

> You've still got a good chance!  She isn't with him anymore, and she's looking better than ever   8)



Except now Angelina Jolie dumped Brad as well, so poor old Weinie will be pulled in two different directions... and Charlize Theron is single, too.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Isn't there a height requirement on those rides??


----------



## Weinie

:rofl:


----------



## dapaterson

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Isn't there a height requirement on those rides??


Jennifer is 5'5", Angelina is 5'7", and Charlize is 5'10", so they all meet or exceed the minimum.


----------



## The Bread Guy

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Wait...what??
> 
> This guy PRETENDED to be a member of ISIS, and made up stories of himself doing criminal acts in order to support his imaginary story??
> 
> Wtf... who WANTS members of the public to think they are a legit member of ISIS when they aren't?  **No proper emoji for the sheer confusion in my brain right now**


With yet another development in the mix ....


> The New York Times has retracted the core of its hit 2018 podcast series Caliphate after an internal review found the paper failed to heed red flags indicating that the man it relied upon for its narrative about the allure of terrorism could not be trusted to tell the truth.
> 
> The newspaper has reassigned its star terrorism reporter, Rukmini Callimachi, who hosted the series.
> 
> Caliphate relayed the tale about the radicalization of a young Canadian who went to Syria, joined the Islamic State and became an executioner for the extremist group before escaping its hold.
> 
> Canadian authorities this fall accused the man, Shehroze Chaudhry, of lying about those activities. He currently faces criminal charges in a federal court in Ontario of perpetrating a terrorism hoax.
> 
> "We fell in love with the fact that we had gotten a member of ISIS who would describe his life in the caliphate and would describe his crimes," New York Times executive editor Dean Baquet tells NPR in an interview on Thursday. "I think we were so in love with it that when we saw evidence that maybe he was a fabulist, when we saw evidence that he was making some of it up, we didn't listen hard enough." ...


----------



## brihard

A couple of updates on this:

Two of the kids have been brought home; one in October 2020- sole survivor of an airstrike that killed the rest of her family including parents. The other came home this past weekend, it looks like family got her home with a bit of necessary consular support from GAC.









						Canada repatriates orphaned girl from ISIS camp in Syria - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The girl, known as Amira, is the first Canadian to be repatriated from Syrian camps for ISIS detainees.




					globalnews.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/isis-detention-camp-child-canada-1.5949996
		


From MacLean's, 'Bring Them Home'- the repatriation of the first of those two kids has increased pressure on the government both to bring home the kids, and to set mechanisms in place for prosecuting the adults. Most notably, lawyer Lawrence Greenspon has been retained by a number of the families of detained Canadians. I think we can safely surmise that there will be increased pressure soon, and a greater call on the various governmental and security agencies to be ready to handle this potential influx.









						Bring them home - Macleans.ca
					

The rescue of the orphan ‘Amira’ has raised pressure on Ottawa to take back other children of Canadians who fought in Syria for ISIS—and to prosecute the fighters here




					www.macleans.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> ... Two of the kids have been brought home; one in October 2020- sole survivor of an airstrike that killed the rest of her family including parents. The other came home this past weekend, it looks like family got her home with a bit of necessary consular support from GAC ...


Next step ....


> A Canadian woman was released from a camp for ISIS detainees in northeast Syria on the weekend, a lawyer representing her family said on Monday.
> 
> The woman, believed to have left for Syria in 2014, has been taken to Erbil, northern Iraq, setting the stage for her return to Canada.
> 
> She is the first Canadian adult to leave the makeshift camps and prisons for suspected ISIS members captured in Syria during the conflict.
> 
> What awaits her upon her arrival in Canada in the coming weeks remains uncertain.
> 
> Asked what steps were being taken to protect public safety, Public Safety Minister Bill Blair’s office declined to answer. The RCMP did not comment.
> 
> But sources told Global News the RCMP was not notified about the case until Sunday, leaving little time to prepare.
> 
> Ottawa lawyer Lawrence Greenspon told Global News the woman is the mother of a four-year-old girl who was brought back to Canada from Syria in March.
> 
> The mother’s departure from the Syrian camp was facilitated by a “third party,” specifically former U.S. diplomat Peter Galbraith, Greenspon said.
> 
> Galbraith was also responsible for getting the woman’s daughter out of Kurdish custody, Greenspon said. Galbraith could not be reached for comment ...


----------



## brihard

Uh oh. If that floodgate opens it’s gonna be a mess. While I accept the inevitability that they’ll be coming home, let’s keep it to a slow trickle...


----------



## Remius

How many are we actually talking about? I honestly have mixed feelings about this.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> How many are we actually talking about? I honestly have mixed feelings about this.



My guess is that we don't really know how many there are. This article mentions 'at least 47 Canadians'.

I assume that if we throw the first few in jail the rest will take note and try to play their options.


"More than one year ago, in March 2019, local fighters aided by a US-led, international coalition routed the Islamic State (ISIS) from the Syrian town of Baghouz, the last holdout of the group’s self-declared caliphate. In addition to capturing Syrians, the US-backed fighters, called the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), rounded up thousands of others who had been living under ISIS—men, women, and children from more than 60 countries. Since then, these foreigners have been arbitrarily detained in filthy and often inhuman and life-threatening conditions by authorities in northeast Syria, with the tacit approval of the Global Coalition Against ISIS, whose members include Canada. The detainees include at least 47 Canadians." 









						“Bring Me Back to Canada”
					

The 92-page report, “‘Bring Me Back To Canada’: Plight of Canadians Held in Northeast Syria for Alleged ISIS Links,” says that Canada has not brought home any of the estimated 47 Canadians – 8 men, 13 women, and 26 children – detained for more than a year in overcrowded, filthy, and...




					www.hrw.org


----------



## Remius

That was good read.  Thanks. 

While I feel sorry for the children caught up in this, I have far less sympathy for the pleadings of those grown adults that made the choices that they made.  

Somehow though,  I think that many lawsuits will come of this from those desperate to get back when and if they do.


----------



## Haggis

daftandbarmy said:


> "The detainees include *at least* 47 Canadians."


Those are the known.  How well (or not) they are received upon repatriation will influence the unknowns to follow suit or stay put.


----------



## Remius

Haggis said:


> Those are the known.  How well (or not) they are received upon repatriation will influence the unknowns to follow suit or stay put.


I’d be curious to see the if  the “unknowns” who may not even be canadian try and swindle their way in.


----------



## The Bread Guy

One extreme option:  just bring the kids back (à la russe).


----------



## Weinie

The Bread Guy said:


> One extreme option:  just bring the kids back (à la russe).


The article did state that the kids were orphans, which presumes their parents are dead. I am not sure that forcibly removing kids from their parents has much resonance in Canada right now.


----------



## OldSolduer

"Asked what steps were being taken to protect public safety, Public Safety Minister Bill Blair’s office declined to answer."

Cause he has no clue. Like many of his peers.


----------



## CBH99

I am all for bringing children back, if they are Canadian citizens.  

The parents and such, held on suspicion of being ISIS?  Or who left Canada to support the ISIS cause?  Screw em.

Seperating kids from parents is never a great option unless dire circumstances require it.  And this would, I imagine, qualify as dire circumstances.  But this isn’t separating a child from an abusive parent in a domestic setting, this is an entirely different kettle of fish.  

As for Canadians who left Canada to support ISIS in one form or another?  Again, screw em.  They made a very deliberate choice, and they have to live with the consequences of that choice just like the rest of us.  

If I left Canada to support a fanatical terror group that was beheading people, taking women as sex slaves, and murdering people by the hundreds…and I ended up in a detention camp of some kind because of it.  I wouldn’t expect anybody to lift a damn finger to help me.  

0.02


----------



## brihard

OldSolduer said:


> "Asked what steps were being taken to protect public safety, Public Safety Minister Bill Blair’s office declined to answer."
> 
> Cause he has no clue. Like many of his peers.


Not accurate at all. It just isn’t for public consumption.

As for how many? Well, as the articles state, there are a certain number known to be in the camps. Some will be adults who can be charged, some will not. The ‘brides of ISIS’ will be judicially challenging. There are potential charges there for some, likely not for others. We can guess for ourselves how punitive the courts will likely be to a young woman who at the age of 19 got seduced to go to Syria and have some ISIS babies.

Generally it was the men who did real ISIS stuff. Most of them lost fights with the US Air Force, but a few are still around.

I was surprised to see this go public, but some recently unsealed court records lift the curtain just a bit on one particular individual:


Unsealed documents show RCMP intends to charge captured ISIS fighter​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/mohammed-khalifa-isis-rcmp-1.6077311


----------



## dapaterson

CBH99 said:


> If I left Canada to support a fanatical terror group that was beheading people, taking women as sex slaves, and murdering people by the hundreds…and I ended up in a detention camp of some kind because of it.  I wouldn’t expect anybody to lift a damn finger to help me.
> 
> 0.02


If you're Canadian, I want you back for punishment here, not oblige some other nations to have to address our problems.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> I am all for bringing children back, if they are Canadian citizens.
> 
> The parents and such, held on suspicion of being ISIS?  Or who left Canada to support the ISIS cause?  Screw em.
> 
> Seperating kids from parents is never a great option unless dire circumstances require it.  And this would, I imagine, qualify as dire circumstances.  But this isn’t separating a child from an abusive parent in a domestic setting, this is an entirely different kettle of fish.
> 
> As for Canadians who left Canada to support ISIS in one form or another?  Again, screw em.  They made a very deliberate choice, and they have to live with the consequences of that choice just like the rest of us.
> 
> If I left Canada to support a fanatical terror group that was beheading people, taking women as sex slaves, and murdering people by the hundreds…and I ended up in a detention camp of some kind because of it.  I wouldn’t expect anybody to lift a damn finger to help me.
> 
> 0.02



What about Omar Khadr?









						Omar Khadr - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> What about Omar Khadr?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omar Khadr - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Good question.


----------



## FJAG

dapaterson said:


> If you're Canadian, I want you back for punishment here, not oblige some other nations to have to address our problems.


Doesn't it depend on where they did the crime?

If a Canadian goes to the US and does a crime we expect the US system to deal with it. If they go to Australia and do it there, the same. 

If they go to Iraq and commit crimes why shouldn't Iraq try, and if convicted, punish them?

🍻


----------



## daftandbarmy

FJAG said:


> Doesn't it depend on where they did the crime?
> 
> If a Canadian goes to the US and does a crime we expect the US system to deal with it. If they go to Australia and do it there, the same.
> 
> If they go to Iraq and commit crimes why shouldn't Iraq try, and if convicted, punish them?
> 
> 🍻



... or make them President, as that type of behaviour tends to be a pre-requisite for senior leadership in some parts of the developing world.


----------



## Haggis

FJAG said:


> Doesn't it depend on where they did the crime?
> 
> If a Canadian goes to the US and does a crime we expect the US system to deal with it. If they go to Australia and do it there, the same.
> 
> If they go to Iraq and commit crimes why shouldn't Iraq try, and if convicted, punish them?
> 
> 🍻


I guess that would depend on our extradition treaty, if any,  with that nation. There are all kinds of byzantine rules around extradition.

What if said nation doesn't want/is unable to prosecute them?


----------



## Haggis

daftandbarmy said:


> What about Omar Khadr?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omar Khadr - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


We got off cheap. The government settled out-of-court because they rightly feared thay would lose at trial. He would've received five times more with a win in court.


----------



## FJAG

Haggis said:


> I guess that would depend on our extradition treaty, if any,  with that nation. There are all kinds of byzantine rules around extradition.
> 
> What if said nation doesn't want/is unable to prosecute them?


But the purpose of extradition is to bring a person who is in a foreign country but who committed a crime in Canada back to Canada for trial.

Isn't the situation we are discussing here about Canadians who left Canada to commit offences in foreign countries and who have been caught in a foreign country?

We do have arrangements with some countries who have tried our citizens for crimes in their country to serve out their punishments in Canadian jails. That's what we did with Khadr but when he got here he was almost immediately granted bail. That should make other countries somewhat cautious about letting prisoners with time to serve to come back to Canada.

🍻


----------



## Haggis

FJAG said:


> But the purpose of extradition is to bring a person who is in a foreign country but who committed a crime in Canada back to Canada for trial.
> 
> Isn't the situation we are discussing here about Canadians who left Canada to commit offences in foreign countries and who have been caught in a foreign country?


A Canadian who commits a crime in Iraq and is subsequently repatriated/returns to Canada may be provisionally arrested and detained pending extradition on the strength of an  INTERPOL RED NOTICE issued by Iraq.  That's what i was getting at.


----------



## The Bread Guy

FJAG said:


> ... Isn't the situation we are discussing here about Canadians who left Canada to commit offences in foreign countries and who have been caught in a foreign country? ...


Depends on the situation.  If Canadian law says you can't leave Canada to do bad things, and you're nabbed elsewhere, did the offence of "leaving Canada" happen here, or there? My non-legal-beagle mind says leaving happened here, but I stand to be corrected/educated.


----------



## Haggis

The Bread Guy said:


> Depends on the situation.  If Canadian law says you can't leave Canada to do bad things, and you're nabbed elsewhere, did the offence of "leaving Canada" happen here, or there? My non-legal-beagle mind says leaving happened here, but I stand to be corrected/educated.


Section 6.1 of the Charter states that "Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada." Unless you're stupid enough to openly state "I'm going to wage jihad!" you are free to leave. In those cases which came to light, the traveller's passport was suspended/cancelled/seized which only thwarts travel by legitimate means.  Some, I'm sure, have claimed they were visiting grandma in Israel and then joined ISIS instead.  What happens when they re-enter Canada by right after being a member of a terrorist army is the issue.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Haggis said:


> What happens when they re-enter Canada by right after being a member of a terrorist army is the issue.


True enough - and then it often comes down to "what's the easiest to nail them with based on the evidence that'll make it in court?"


----------



## Kilted

Treason and other Offences against the Queen’s Authority and Person​Marginal note:High treason


*46* (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Marginal note:Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.

Marginal note:Canadian citizen
(3) Notwithstanding subsection (1) or (2), a Canadian citizen or a person who owes allegiance to Her Majesty in right of Canada,
(a) commits high treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (1); or
(b) commits treason if, while in or out of Canada, he does anything mentioned in subsection (2).

Marginal note:Overt act
(4) Where it is treason to conspire with any person, the act of conspiring is an overt act of treason.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 46
1974-75-76, c. 105, s. 2
Marginal noteunishment for high treason


*47* (1) Every one who commits high treason is guilty of an indictable offence and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.

Now from my understanding, we must be at war with an actual country for this to be applicable.  Im surprised that this hasn't been changed. On the other hand, if Canada was to retroactively recognize ISIS as a country, it might work.


----------



## Haggis

Kilted said:


> Now from my understanding, we must be at war with an actual country for this to be applicable.  Im surprised that this hasn't been changed. On the other hand, if Canada was to retroactively recognize ISIS as a country, it might work.


ISIS, despite their internal belief that they were a "state" were, in fact, a non-state actor.  I doubt there is a legal basis to charge someone with treason for joining ISIS.  However, there are lots of other criminal offences which they could be charged with, if the evidence is available to prove them.


----------



## ModlrMike

From my perspective, the law states we have to let Canadians re-enter the country. It doesn't impose a responsibility to return those who have committed offences abroad. You leave the country, and get yourself into trouble, that's on you... and I'm not including the "two Michaels" scenario in that.


----------



## FJAG

The Bread Guy said:


> Depends on the situation.  If Canadian law says you can't leave Canada to do bad things, and you're nabbed elsewhere, did the offence of "leaving Canada" happen here, or there? My non-legal-beagle mind says leaving happened here, but I stand to be corrected/educated.


It's actually a lot broader than that.

The law pre 2001 was that generally you could not be charged and tried in Canada for an offence committed outside Canada. There were exceptions for war crimes (as defined in the Law of Armed Conflict) and certain other minor and specific exemptions.

Then things changed big time. S. 6(2) still states the general law:  


> Offences outside Canada
> 
> (2) Subject to this Act or any other Act of Parliament, no person shall be convicted or discharged under section 730 of an offence committed outside Canada.


But s 7 now adds a plethora of offences for which you can be tried in Canada for things done elsewhere and Part II.1 adds an abundance of circumstances that come under the general rubric of "Terrorism".

So Canada has given itself much power to bring jurisdiction over these crimes "home". Very few of these laws have been tested in court to see if they stand constitutional muster. Quite frankly, I hope they do because if someone commits these acts in a foreign country or beyond Canada's territorial jurisdiction, and somehow safely makes it back inside our borders, I would not want to see them escape some form of punishment if extradition becomes impossible for some reason or other.

That said, there's a difference between trying someone for their crimes here because they escaped justice in the country where they committed the crime and specifically bringing people home from the foreign country for trial here when the foreign country already has them and could try them there. Such trials here become very complex and costly and can all too easily end up with a guilty person escaping actual justice.

🍻


----------



## brihard

Going off what’s open source, there are, broadly, two types of offenses in play for this stuff. One is terrorism offenses, easiest being 83.181, leave Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group. Pretty much an ISIS catch-all. Depending on what acts can be proven, the whole gamut of terrorism offenses are potentially in play. The other broad category is offenses found in the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act. Quite difficult to prove because of the specifics needed, but it affords options too. Either can be prosecuted for offences outside of Canada.

As for charging them here versus charging them there, the limited available information   I’ve seen in the news suggests that most of the known CETs are in Kurdish controlled Syria, either in Al Hawl or Al Roj camps. That’s SDF territory. They have their work cut out for them to try to govern their autonomous region. I’m not sure we can justify leaving our problem children there. My amateur prognostication is we’ll see more of the women come back with kids in tow probably next winter after the election. Whatever handful of men still survive, tougher to say- but then we’re more likely to have viable and weighty criminal charges against the men too.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ISIS...anyone wonder where they came from?  How they came to be in the first place (if you're looking to place blame...or just understand)?    PBS Frontline - Losing Iraq

I spent a considerable amount of time over Iraq and Syria hunting "ISIS"...I'm torn in 2 directions on this.  Some of the adults, and all of the kids, are 'victims of ISIS'.  Bring them home. 

There's the other part of me, though, that fears some of them might be 'seeds of the future'...and they will be in our backyards.



> But abandoning citizens, most of them young children, to indefinite, unlawful detention in deeply degrading conditions will not make Canada safer. Instead, it denies ISIS victims and their families their day in court, while creating grievances that risk aiding ISIS recruitment drives and perpetuating cycles of violence.


----------



## brihard

CANCIT “Abu Ridwan al-Kanadi” - Mohammed Khalifa - has been charged by the US and brought to Virginia in FBI custody. This is a big development.

This guy was the English language “voice of ISIS”. Anyone who’s seen any of their slick propaganda videos - particularly Flames of War and its sequel - has heard this guy. He’s been in Kurdish custody for a while now.

This could be one of the most prominent ISIS foreign fighter trials to come.









						ISIS Media Figure and Foreign Fighter Charged with Conspiring to Provide Material Support to a Terrorist Organization, Resulting in Death
					

As alleged in a criminal complaint unsealed today in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Mohammed Khalifa, a Saudi-born Canadian citizen, who was a leading figure in the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham’s (ISIS) English Media Section and served as an ISIS fighter, was...




					www.justice.gov


----------



## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> CANCIT “Abu Ridwan al-Kanadi” - Mohammed Khalifa - has been charged by the US and brought to Virginia in FBI custody ...


Stand by for "why isn't he being tried in Canada?"

VERY good catch - thanks for sharing!


----------



## brihard

This is the same guy that made the news in June; the court unsealed some documents indicating the Mounties were looking to charge him. Looks like the Americans called ‘dibs’. RCMP preparing charges against Toronto IT worker who became ‘voice of ISIS,’ document reveals  | Globalnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

Repatriation? I'm a hard no... 

Dilemmas regarding returning ISIS fighters​

The actual and anticipated return of ISIS fighters and supporters is a different matter for several reasons. These include the extraordinarily cruel nature of ISIS actions; the continuation of ISIS forces and ideology in territories outside the war zones of Syria and Iraq; the successful recruitment of non-combatant persons such as medical personnel and aspiring brides; the substantial numbers of foreign fighters and other departees within ISIS forces; globalization; the global potential of social media for recruitment; and the continuation of factors of alienation and isolation that motivated many persons who left western countries to fight or support the ISIS cause (Dawson and Amarasingham 2017; Benmelech and Klor 2018). The number of foreign fighters with ISIS was unusually large: it is commonly estimated at 40,000. This estimate includes persons from some 80 countries. We will not attempt to comment here on legal issues and social issues in these many contexts. Even restricting concern to western countries such as the UK, France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, the USA and Canada, it is estimated that some 5600 persons left to fight with or otherwise support ISIS forces. A common estimate is that about one third of these persons will become returnees (Coolsaet and Renard 2018, 3). This is a large enough number to be worrisome, especially when we consider that there are also _jihadist_ supporters of ISIS who did not travel outside their resident countries, but may plot terrorist acts close to home with motivation and skills supported by returnees with enhanced credibility and expertise.

The most obvious challenge in this context is that of public safety. Credibility assessments are needed in this area, obviously. Some men and women and even older children may remain _jihadist_ supporters. Risks to the public arise because even a few seeking terrorist involvement and achieving success can do enormous damage; dangers arise even if not every returnee is a threat.











						Dilemmas regarding returning ISIS fighters
					

(2020). Dilemmas regarding returning ISIS fighters. Ethics & Global Politics: Vol. 13, No. 2, pp. 93-107.



					www.tandfonline.com


----------



## brihard

Interesting timing in light of this. Earlier this week, prominent lawyer Lawrence Greenspan filed an action in federal court on behalf of the families of detained Canadian ISIS suspects. Khalifa is believed to be one of the individuals his action is on behalf of. The filing basically argues that the Canadian government has failed to take reasonable steps to bring them home.









						Families of ISIS detainees held in Syria take Canada to court over inaction  | Globalnews.ca
					

Eleven families accused Ottawa of failing 'to take all reasonable steps' to repatriate Canadian detainees captured by U.S.-backed Kurdish forces.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> Interesting timing in light of this. Earlier this week, prominent lawyer Lawrence Greenspan filed an action in federal court on behalf of the families of detained Canadian ISIS suspects. Khalifa is believed to be one of the individuals his action is on behalf of. The filing basically argues that the Canadian government has failed to take reasonable steps to bring them home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Families of ISIS detainees held in Syria take Canada to court over inaction  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Eleven families accused Ottawa of failing 'to take all reasonable steps' to repatriate Canadian detainees captured by U.S.-backed Kurdish forces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Settlements incoming.


----------



## CBH99

brihard said:


> Interesting timing in light of this. Earlier this week, prominent lawyer Lawrence Greenspan filed an action in federal court on behalf of the families of detained Canadian ISIS suspects. Khalifa is believed to be one of the individuals his action is on behalf of. The filing basically argues that the Canadian government has failed to take reasonable steps to bring them home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Families of ISIS detainees held in Syria take Canada to court over inaction  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Eleven families accused Ottawa of failing 'to take all reasonable steps' to repatriate Canadian detainees captured by U.S.-backed Kurdish forces.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Where does one even begin to comment on such an article?

-  While not entirely Trudeau’s fault, we put absolutely zero effort into relocating our Afghan interpreters/contractors & bringing them to Canada.  And in many cases that was a very much agreed upon perk of their employment. 

If we put 0 effort into relocating Afghans who were imbedded with our own forces during combat operations… what makes you think we would put any effort into relocating captured ISIS fighters?  Like really??  

Considering the absolutely horrific things ISIS did during its short yet dramatic emergence… sitting in some dirty and overcrowded camps is far better than what they did to random civilians en-masse.  

Between ISIS brides, beheadings, burning people alive, etc etc - I have a hard time feeling sorry for a guy living in an ‘unsanitary detainee camp.’  Especially when this person travelled to Syria FROM Canada during that time, and was captured by allied forces in the company of ISIS militants.  

Not only did they travel to that region during that time FROM Canada, but the older men already admitted to being ISIS members, narrating execution videos, etc.  

They aren’t ‘suspected ISIS members, but the poor guys are innocent and haven’t had access to any real legal processes.’  They are ADMITTED ISIS members, who can rot where they are.  

Also, at the end of the article, I chuckled when they said “Trudeau could change all of this _if he can find the moral courage to do so_.”   

Is he completely unfamiliar with who Trudeau is?  



My overall point?  

Given our financial situation between Covid and having a guy like JT at the helm, I’m happy if my tax dollars don’t go towards bringing home the older men who are detained.  

(The children are a different issue altogether.)


0.02


----------



## brihard

The men will probably be viable for prosecution, particularly if they flew over after the new offence of leaving Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group was created. Any who left before that offence was created, it’ll be a bit trickier as activities on behalf of a terrorist group will need to be directly proven. But not impossible. 

The kids should come back to Canada, on pure humanitarian grounds. 

The challenging ones will be the women, the ‘brides of ISIS’, where there may not be viable criminal charges. Is leaving Canada to marry an ISIS member “leaving Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group”? There could be compelling arguments either way. Will it make a difference if, say they were purely a homemaker, or if they worked as a nurse?

I don’t think the legal action on this will go very far, but the dilemma remains: eventually, many/most of these individuals will probably return to Canada. Then what?


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> The men will probably be viable for prosecution, particularly if they flew over after the new offence of leaving Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group was created. Any who left before that offence was created, it’ll be a bit trickier as activities on behalf of a terrorist group will need to be directly proven. But not impossible.
> 
> The kids should come back to Canada, on pure humanitarian grounds.
> 
> The challenging ones will be the women, the ‘brides of ISIS’, where there may not be viable criminal charges. Is leaving Canada to marry an ISIS member “leaving Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group”? There could be compelling arguments either way. Will it make a difference if, say they were purely a homemaker, or if they worked as a nurse?
> 
> I don’t think the legal action on this will go very far, but the dilemma remains: eventually, many/most of these individuals will probably return to Canada. Then what?



Maybe we should give them the option of returning to ISIS as double agents.

Don't worry, we'll look after the wife and kids for you while you're away


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Don't worry, we'll look after the wife and kids for you while you're away


I know how you meant it, but when I first read this part I was just like “Wowa, daft is feeling DARK today…” 😅🤦🏼‍♂️



brihard said:


> The men will probably be viable for prosecution, particularly if they flew over after the new offence of leaving Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group was created. Any who left before that offence was created, it’ll be a bit trickier as activities on behalf of a terrorist group will need to be directly proven. But not impossible.
> 
> The kids should come back to Canada, on pure humanitarian grounds.
> 
> The challenging ones will be the women, the ‘brides of ISIS’, where there may not be viable criminal charges. Is leaving Canada to marry an ISIS member “leaving Canada to participate in the activities of a terrorist group”? There could be compelling arguments either way. Will it make a difference if, say they were purely a homemaker, or if they worked as a nurse?
> 
> I don’t think the legal action on this will go very far, but the dilemma remains: eventually, many/most of these individuals will probably return to Canada. Then what?


Agreed on the children whole heartedly.  They did nothing wrong, made no conscious choices to be there, and while exposed to a lot more than most western children who are born & raised in the west - probably had/have zero true understanding of the big picture.  

To say shame on the parents for bringing their child to a violent war-zone, and one as twisted as that theatre, would be an understatement.  

Regardless of religious beliefs, bringing your child to a war zone VOLUNTARILY is just plain messed up.  Especially the lengths they had to go to, to get there.  

If some of them were born to parents who are now detained, as the article states, that complicates things from a legal perspective.  Regardless, doing what’s morally right shouldn’t be a matter related to paperwork or bureaucracy.  


As for many of these people coming back and then what?  Detain upon arrival.  No possibility of bail, as they have already admitted to their activities & clearly are a threat to society, and prosecute them to the fullest extent possible.  

(Pretty hard to argue someone doesn’t present a possible threat to society when they admit to narrating execution videos.)



My humble 0.02 🍻


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> I know how you meant it, but when I first read this part I was just like “Wowa, daft is feeling DARK today…” 😅🤦🏼‍♂️



What? Is one of the wives named 'Dark'?

Asking for a friend


----------



## Kat Stevens

daftandbarmy said:


> Maybe we should give them the option of returning to ISIS as double agents.
> 
> Don't worry, we'll look after the wife and kids for you while you're away


At least we don't call them "hostages", to promote proper behavior, any more.


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:


> I know how you meant it, but when I first read this part I was just like “Wowa, daft is feeling DARK today…” 😅🤦🏼‍♂️
> 
> 
> Agreed on the children whole heartedly.  They did nothing wrong, made no conscious choices to be there, and while exposed to a lot more than most western children who are born & raised in the west - probably had/have zero true understanding of the big picture.
> 
> To say shame on the parents for bringing their child to a violent war-zone, and one as twisted as that theatre, would be an understatement.
> 
> Regardless of religious beliefs, bringing your child to a war zone VOLUNTARILY is just plain messed up.  Especially the lengths they had to go to, to get there.
> 
> If some of them were born to parents who are now detained, as the article states, that complicates things from a legal perspective.  Regardless, doing what’s morally right shouldn’t be a matter related to paperwork or bureaucracy.
> 
> 
> As for many of these people coming back and then what?  Detain upon arrival.  No possibility of bail, as they have already admitted to their activities & clearly are a threat to society, and prosecute them to the fullest extent possible.
> 
> (Pretty hard to argue someone doesn’t present a possible threat to society when they admit to narrating execution videos.)
> 
> 
> 
> My humble 0.02 🍻


I think most of the kids were born there. My knowledge of this is far from encyclopaedic, but definitely better than average. We had women heading over there in 2013-2014, getting married and firing out ISIS babies. As you say, those kids had no choice.

The men, as I said, are probably in most cases not a tough one. While prosecutions won’t be easy, I would venture to guess that most if not all could be chargeable and arrestable on return. They would of course have the right to a bail hearing.

The women- like I said, tougher. If police (RCMP, by virtue of national security) don’t have sufficient grounds to charge them with an offense, there’s no real legal mechanism to hold them in custody.

The law is the law, and police working on these will face significant challenges around evidence availability and evidence admissibility. Because we’re a rule of law country, the ability for Canadian authorities to act arbitrarily is extremely limited both in scope and duration. Unfortunately this isn’t nearly as easy a situation as we’d like it to be.


----------



## CBH99

brihard said:


> I think most of the kids were born there. My knowledge of this is far from encyclopaedic, but definitely better than average. We had women heading over there in 2013-2014, getting married and firing out ISIS babies. As you say, those kids had no choice.
> 
> The men, as I said, are probably in most cases not a tough one. While prosecutions won’t be easy, I would venture to guess that most if not all could be chargeable and arrestable on return. They would of course have the right to a bail hearing.
> 
> The women- like I said, tougher. If police (RCMP, by virtue of national security) don’t have sufficient grounds to charge them with an offense, there’s no real legal mechanism to hold them in custody.
> 
> The law is the law, and police working on these will face significant challenges around evidence availability and evidence admissibility. Because we’re a rule of law country, the ability for Canadian authorities to act arbitrarily is extremely limited both in scope and duration. Unfortunately this isn’t nearly as easy a situation as we’d like it to be.


You are, ofcourse, quite right.  And it is a good reminder for us to be thankful that we live in such a country.  

I, too, just remember the basic gist of the situation.  I suppose I was envisioning what I ‘hope would happen in the event they do return’ in a general sense, but I wasn’t forgetting about the rule of law.  


______


Some of the men have admitted to committing atrocities, and one has admitted to narrating execution videos. 

Do they have a right to a bail hearing?  Yes.  

My argument was that the police could make quite compelling arguments that the individual IS a threat to the public, and therefore should be remanded until trial.  


______


You are right, it is tricky.  While some of them have admitted to participating in atrocities, those actions did not occur in Canada.  Admissibility will be a difficult minefield to navigate.  

Is their admission enough, given that presenting witnesses will be a challenge?  

Is them travelling to that region from Canada enough, given the situation at the time and their subsequent admissions?  

I have no idea, either way.  


______



But do we have a legal obligation to bring them back as prudently as possible, as the lawsuit seems to suggest?  I also don’t know. 

They left Canada voluntarily to join a terror organization, and ISIS at that.  Now they are detained, and have been for a while.  Good.  Canadian legal specifics aside, I don’t think we should be in a huge hurry to rush to their aid.  


______


The letter presented by the lawyer in the article states that these individuals haven’t been given some of the specifics that are granted to them under Canadian law, and that their Charter rights are being violated.  

Would the protections of the Charter apply to someone who willfully travelled outside of the country to join a terror organization, and are now being detained without a clear plan for their release? 

The more I think about it, the more complicated the legal challenges ahead would be.  Again, you are very right.  


______


In regards to the children… we agree 100% 

What nationality or legal status of children born under these types of circumstances?  

Regardless, bring them here.  Get them set up in the appropriate homes with the right families.  It won’t be simple nor easy, but growing up here under normal circumstances and having a normal childhood is so important.  

The detainee camps are set up for just that - detainees.  Individuals who chose to support/fight for an organization like ISIS.   

The children didn’t choose that, nor did they do anything wrong.  We should let them have the best chance at a normal life as possible.  



Cheers mate, your post gave me lots to ponder 🍻


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> What? Is one of the wives named 'Dark'?
> 
> Asking for a friend


Man if you’re feeling up some ISIS fighter’s wife, I feel like you’ve got bigger problems coming your way soon 😉

Btw, your friend MAY want to go for an eye exam.  I don’t recall any of them being jaw droppers…


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:


> You are, ofcourse, quite right.  And it is a good reminder for us to be thankful that we live in such a country.
> 
> I, too, just remember the basic gist of the situation.  I suppose I was envisioning what I ‘hope would happen in the event they do return’ in a general sense, but I wasn’t forgetting about the rule of law.
> 
> 
> ______
> 
> 
> Some of the men have admitted to committing atrocities, and one has admitted to narrating execution videos.
> 
> Do they have a right to a bail hearing?  Yes.
> 
> My argument was that the police could make quite compelling arguments that the individual IS a threat to the public, and therefore should be remanded until trial.
> 
> 
> ______
> 
> 
> You are right, it is tricky.  While some of them have admitted to participating in atrocities, those actions did not occur in Canada.  Admissibility will be a difficult minefield to navigate.
> 
> Is their admission enough, given that presenting witnesses will be a challenge?
> 
> Is them travelling to that region from Canada enough, given the situation at the time and their subsequent admissions?
> 
> I have no idea, either way.
> 
> 
> ______
> 
> 
> 
> But do we have a legal obligation to bring them back as prudently as possible, as the lawsuit seems to suggest?  I also don’t know.
> 
> They left Canada voluntarily to join a terror organization, and ISIS at that.  Now they are detained, and have been for a while.  Good.  Canadian legal specifics aside, I don’t think we should be in a huge hurry to rush to their aid.
> 
> 
> ______
> 
> 
> The letter presented by the lawyer in the article states that these individuals haven’t been given some of the specifics that are granted to them under Canadian law, and that their Charter rights are being violated.
> 
> Would the protections of the Charter apply to someone who willfully travelled outside of the country to join a terror organization, and are now being detained without a clear plan for their release?
> 
> The more I think about it, the more complicated the legal challenges ahead would be.  Again, you are very right.
> 
> 
> ______
> 
> 
> In regards to the children… we agree 100%
> 
> What nationality or legal status of children born under these types of circumstances?
> 
> Regardless, bring them here.  Get them set up in the appropriate homes with the right families.  It won’t be simple nor easy, but growing up here under normal circumstances and having a normal childhood is so important.
> 
> The detainee camps are set up for just that - detainees.  Individuals who chose to support/fight for an organization like ISIS.
> 
> The children didn’t choose that, nor did they do anything wrong.  We should let them have the best chance at a normal life as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers mate, your post gave me lots to ponder 🍻


The ‘narrator’, at least, is now in the US and will face trial there, though court documents released in the summer suggest he was facing charges here too. He, at least, seems to have created a lot of evidence. I’m not sure how many of the men are left… likely not many. The challenge will be knowing versus proving. Confessions alone, uncorroborated by other compelling evidence, are a chancy thing. I wouldn’t want to be the crown prosecutor having to build a case on the admissibility of a statement given by an ISIS detainee to a news reporter, the SDF, or even the FBI while detained in a Kurdish camp in northern Syria. Those are circumstances practically custom made to bring bring the voluntariness or reliability of a statement into question. Even if other evidence was taken (seized phones? Computers?), chain of custody might not be sufficiently clean, and allies may be unwilling to let us use evidence obtained by their military or intelligence.

Then again, maybe once in Canadian custody and brought into an interview room, they spill their guts. Who knows?


----------



## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> ... I wouldn’t want to be the crown prosecutor having to build a case on the admissibility of a statement given by an ISIS detainee to a news reporter, the SDF, or even the FBI while detained in a Kurdish camp in northern Syria ...


Ask the NY Times, right? 😉


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

Questions to ponder about the former ISIS fighters.

1) Had they won would they want to come back home and live with the unwashed, or would they want to live in their self made kingdom of what ever? Rest of the world would call it hell on earth I am sure.

2) Since they all volunteered to go and they flew there, hitched rides, lied their way there, why is up to the Canadian Government to bring them back? Went on their own dime, let them come back home on their own dime? They must of been well paid after all ISIS was making money to buy equipment, and feed the troops, video feeds, on line presence etc, all black market money I know but where is the money?

3) If these family members are so concerned now about their safety, why did they not try and stop them from going over there? Not much of a family values before they went and lost .Being concerned after the fact is compelling but  not enough for me to raise a thought to email my MP to ask for help on their behalf. ( selfish maybe)

4) Once they are bought back, does Canadian Law cover them their crimes over seas? War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity? Do we want to pay  to detain and hold them in jail for their crimes?  Or does our leader pay them for their harsh treatment by another country and treatment under the other country's laws? How much is it worth this time around?

5) Does the neighbours of their families want them come live next door again,  they will always wonder if the former ISIS fighter is going to snap today, and who is going to bear the attack. 

Just my thoughts.


----------



## OldSolduer

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Questions to ponder about the former ISIS fighters.
> 
> 1) Had they won would they want to come back home and live with the unwashed, or would they want to live in their self made kingdom of what ever? Rest of the world would call it hell on earth I am sure.
> 
> 2) Since they all volunteered to go and they flew there, hitched rides, lied their way there, why is up to the Canadian Government to bring them back? Went on their own dime, let them come back home on their own dime? They must of been well paid after all ISIS was making money to buy equipment, and feed the troops, video feeds, on line presence etc, all black market money I know but where is the money?
> 
> 3) If these family members are so concerned now about their safety, why did they not try and stop them from going over there? Not much of a family values before they went and lost .Being concerned after the fact is compelling but  not enough for me to raise a thought to email my MP to ask for help on their behalf. ( selfish maybe)
> 
> 4) Once they are bought back, does Canadian Law cover them their crimes over seas? War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity? Do we want to pay  to detain and hold them in jail for their crimes?  Or does our leader pay them for their harsh treatment by another country and treatment under the other country's laws? How much is it worth this time around?
> 
> 5) Does the neighbours of their families want them come live next door again,  they will always wonder if the former ISIS fighter is going to snap today, and who is going to bear the attack.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

commit a crime go to jail.  I am sure there are or were laws being broken here in Canada, and over there. Let  the lawyers over there sort it out then maybe we can do something


----------



## CBH99

Canada should have prosecuted Toronto man who was ‘voice of ISIS,’ lawyer says  | Globalnews.ca
					

Mohammed Khalifa is the first Canadian ISIS member caught in Syria to be taken to the U.S.




					globalnews.ca
				





There are a few things about these types of articles that bug me:

a)  “It is unclear if Ottawa knew that the US would be taking Mr. Khalifa into custody”

So as the reporter of the article, you are basically saying you don’t know if Ottawa was aware or not.  So why bother writing it?  The RCMP National Security Division has constant communication with the FBI Counter Terror Division (constant as in daily.)  

I’m sure the folks on this file were well aware.  Whether they briefed some bureaucrat about it, who knows.  



b) “We shouldn’t be relying on the FBI to repatriate Canadians for us, in this manner.”

We didn’t ask the FBI to repatriate this person, nor were we relying on them to bring this person back to North America.  This person is not someone in distress the same way a hostage would be, we weren’t relying on the FBI to rescue them and bring them home.  

They are an admitted member of ISIS, and our government chose to not give a shit about their well-being.  (I am usually very frustrated by the federal government in action on many things, but in this case I am finding it hard to really care to be honest.)



c)  When government agencies refer questions to each other, don’t provide strong statements, etc - it eats away at public confidence, and gives the appearance of poor leadership.  

How difficult is it to make a broad yet vague statement akin to what the FBI said on the matter?

“Anybody who participates in terrorism or terrorist activities, or supports terrorist activities in any way, will absolutely be held accountable.  We have coordinated this file with our American colleagues, and Mr. Khalifa was brought to the United States to be prosecuted.”   

Boom - it’s that easy to maintain public confidence in our agencies, and not appear to be a bumbling idiot.


----------



## The Bread Guy

How Germany's handling one of their cases ....


> A Munich court on Monday sentenced a German woman, who had allowed a young Yazidi girl to die of thirst, to 10 years in prison after finding her guilty of supporting Islamic State militants in Iraq, aiding and abetting attempted murder, attempted war crimes and crimes against humanity.
> 
> Prosecutors had accused the 30-year-old woman, identified as Jennifer W. in court documents, of joining the militant group in 2014 and integrating herself into the decision-making and command structure of the group.
> 
> The woman was accused of letting a 5-year-old enslaved Yazidi girl die of thirst after her husband, an Islamic State fighter, chained the child up in a courtyard without protection from the scorching heat as punishment for wetting her mattress, prosecutors said ...





CBH99 said:


> a)  “It is unclear if Ottawa knew that the US would be taking Mr. Khalifa into custody”
> 
> So as the reporter of the article, you are basically saying you don’t know if Ottawa was aware or not.  So why bother writing it?   ...


I can't read minds, but that section can also be read as, "nobody we've talked to wants to say out loud if Canada knew about charges being laid in the U.S.  I'm going to guess someone at some level "knew," too, but admitting it would maybe show their hand too much - or give defence counsel (who seems to contend that Canadians should be tried in a Canadian system) some ammo.  That's why you won't be likely to hear anything as clear and reasonably unambiguous as this ....


CBH99 said:


> “Anybody who participates in terrorism or terrorist activities, or supports terrorist activities in any way, will absolutely be held accountable.  We have coordinated this file with our American colleagues, and Mr. Khalifa was brought to the United States to be prosecuted.”
> 
> Boom - it’s that easy to maintain public confidence in our agencies, and not appear to be a bumbling idiot.


"Bumbling" can also be in the eye of the beholder, too -- those who would hear that and say, "we're going to let the Americans hold people accountable for us?" might not see that as a statement instilling public confidence in Canadian agencies and processes.


----------



## CBH99

The Bread Guy said:


> How Germany's handling one of their cases ....
> 
> 
> I can't read minds, but that section can also be read as, "nobody we've talked to wants to say out loud if Canada knew about charges being laid in the U.S.  I'm going to guess someone at some level "knew," too, but admitting it would maybe show their hand too much - or give defence counsel (who seems to contend that Canadians should be tried in a Canadian system) some ammo.  That's why you won't be likely to hear anything as clear and reasonably unambiguous as this ....
> 
> "Bumbling" can also be in the eye of the beholder, too -- those who would hear that and say, "we're going to let the Americans hold people accountable for us?" might not see that as a statement instilling public confidence in Canadian agencies and processes.


Happy Monday, Bread Guy ☺️

-  Agreed very much so about Canadian agencies staying mute on the matter, as it could give defence counsel options/ammo. 


-  I was thinking more or less as a generality (about public statements), rather than just this specific case.  

Having various government agencies basically say “We don’t have this information, please forward your questions to _insert agency here_.”   And then having that agency also more or less play dumb - doesn’t inspire confidence, even if it is beyond said that way quite deliberately.  

The clear and unambiguous statements are more or less standard talk for most press releases, press conferences, address to the nation, etc.  

Strongly oppose terrorism and violence, while also quietly preaching our values, is something the average Joe Public can hear and feel good about.  

It’s not like the government doesn’t use basically watermark/robotic responses to almost any other issue.  


Either way, I totally agree with your points 👍🏻


----------



## The Bread Guy

CBH99 said:


> ... The clear and unambiguous statements are more or less standard talk for most press releases, press conferences, address to the nation, etc.
> (...)
> It’s not like the government doesn’t use basically watermark/robotic responses to almost any other issue ...


When it comes to almost all government writing, though, it's often that second bit that leads to a shortage of that first bit #AccuracyBrevityClarityPickAnyTwo


----------



## The Bread Guy

One of 'em coming back to Canada ...


> The lawyer for a Canadian woman who spent two years in Syrian prison camps said Friday he’s trying to help get her home from Iraq after Ottawa agreed to give her an emergency travel document.
> 
> Lawyer Paul Champ said he is working with Global Affairs Canada to get authorization from Kurdish officials in northern Iraq for her departure and to identify an appropriate flight.
> 
> In a letter Thursday to Champ, a Justice Canada official said the Immigration Department had authorized the issuance of a travel document for the woman, who cannot be publicly named due to a judge’s confidentiality order.
> 
> Global Affairs Canada will provide the woman “a viable itinerary option for her travel to Canada,” the Justice letter said.
> 
> “It is the individual’s responsibility to purchase an air ticket, at personal expense, and to provide the confirmed itinerary to GAC, noting that it will be important that your client wait for GAC confirmation of the specific date of travel prior to purchasing an air ticket.”
> 
> The development comes after the woman asked the Federal Court to compel Ottawa to give her an emergency document so she could return home ...


----------



## CBH99

The Bread Guy said:


> One of 'em coming back to Canada ...


At least she’ll be monitored by federal agencies, and is returning here on her own dime.


----------



## MilEME09

Bring them back they said, it will be fine they said, they aren't a threat they said. ....



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/canadian-mother-rcmp-syria-isis-camp-terrorism-new-investigation-1.6312752


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:


> Bring them back they said, it will be fine they said, they aren't a threat they said. ....
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/canadian-mother-rcmp-syria-isis-camp-terrorism-new-investigation-1.6312752


Who said it’ll be ‘fine’, in the sense of ‘bring them home and wash our hands- we’re done’? I don’t think any credible voice has ever said there won’t be a need to continue to monitor anyone coming back who is suspected of radicalism.

I’m speculating here, but the fact that this includes mention of ‘war crimes’ suggests that this investigation is one that predates her return, as opposed to offending alleged to have happened since she came back to Canada.


----------



## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> CANCIT “Abu Ridwan al-Kanadi” - Mohammed Khalifa - has been charged by the US and brought to Virginia in FBI custody. This is a big development.
> 
> This guy was the English language “voice of ISIS”. Anyone who’s seen any of their slick propaganda videos - particularly Flames of War and its sequel - has heard this guy. He’s been in Kurdish custody for a while now.
> 
> This could be one of the most prominent ISIS foreign fighter trials to come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISIS Media Figure and Foreign Fighter Charged with Conspiring to Provide Material Support to a Terrorist Organization, Resulting in Death
> 
> 
> As alleged in a criminal complaint unsealed today in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Mohammed Khalifa, a Saudi-born Canadian citizen, who was a leading figure in the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham’s (ISIS) English Media Section and served as an ISIS fighter, was...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.justice.gov


Latest on this dude from the US DoJ ...








						Leading ISIS Media Figure and Foreign Fighter Sentenced to Life Imprisonment
					

A Saudi-born Canadian citizen was sentenced today to life imprisonment for conspiring to provide material support to the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS), a designated foreign terrorist organization, resulting in death.




					www.justice.gov


----------



## Kat Stevens

He'll be back in Canada in under five years and sign up for the $10mil relocation benefit.


----------



## brihard

Kat Stevens said:


> He'll be back in Canada in under five years and sign up for the $10mil relocation benefit.


No. No he won’t. He was facing investigation and likely prosecution here had the Americans not gotten him first. 









						RCMP preparing charges against Toronto IT worker who became ‘voice of ISIS,’ document reveals  | Globalnews.ca
					

The RCMP affidavit alleges Mohammed Khalifa was an ISIS fighter and commander who produced execution videos.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> No. No he won’t. He was facing investigation and likely prosecution here had the Americans not gotten him first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RCMP preparing charges against Toronto IT worker who became ‘voice of ISIS,’ document reveals  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The RCMP affidavit alleges Mohammed Khalifa was an ISIS fighter and commander who produced execution videos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca



Interesting…


> But it also suggests that, unlike its international policing partners, the RCMP has not sent its own investigators to Syria to interview the Canadian suspects, and has instead relied on interviews conducted by journalists.



At first I thought “Hunh?”

Then I recalled if information provided by journalists (especially heavily state-funded) is good enough for the Canadian government to enact the Emergencies Act, then info provided by journalists to the RCMP should result in a slam dunk prosecution of Khalifa.


----------



## brihard

Good2Golf said:


> Interesting…
> 
> 
> At first I thought “Hunh?”
> 
> Then I recalled if information provided by journalists (especially heavily state-funded) is good enough for the Canadian government to enact the Emergencies Act, then info provided by journalists to the RCMP should result in a slam dunk prosecution of Khalifa.


Speaking only speculatively, an investigative interview of someone held in a Kurdish prisoner camp would be absolutely worthless for a prosecution in Canadian courts. You’d be setting the defence up for a slam dunk argument that the statement was not given voluntarily or freely, and that the suspect felt coercion from the Kurds to provide the statement. Custodial suspect statements call for a lot of caution to protect legal admissibility.

Anything someone says to investigators overseas they can say if and when they end up back in Canada, and Canadian authorities would be in a position to make sure that the suspect cannot argue coercion. We don’t have that luxury for people in foreign custody.

America has very different standards of evidentiary admissibility than we do. They get away with some ridiculous stuff.


----------



## Good2Golf

Less cynically-minded, and more seriously questioning, how then does Canada make the case remotely to charge Khalifa and take him into custody and bring him to Canada for prosecution?


----------



## brihard

That’s really only just ruling out seeking a confession from a suspect in a Kurdish prison camp. Speaking generally, there are many different ways to investigate terrorism offences for Canadians who travel overseas to do extremist stuff.

Khalifa was probably the most prominent, but he’s not the only Canadian foreign fighter in custody. I have some notion of how these might generally play out- but only a notion, and only generally. It’ll always depend on the fact set and the admissible evidence in any individual case. I suspect we’ll see movement when privately retained lawyers force the government’s hand on repatriation. That’ll start with the ISIS wives.


----------



## ueo

Cloud Cover said:


> That's just plain disgusting.


Wish there was an emoti for throwing up in disgust!


----------



## OldSolduer

I’m interested in what this traitor has to say about Canada now he’s in a US prison. I say let him ROT


----------



## Kilted

He also wasn't born in Canada, so perhaps we will see him stripped of his citizenship the next time we have a Conservative Government.


----------



## brihard

Kilted said:


> He also wasn't born in Canada, so perhaps we will see him stripped of his citizenship the next time we have a Conservative Government.


That would just get nuked in the Supreme Court the way it was always gonna get nuked in the Supreme Court, and cost the government a bunch of money.


----------



## OldSolduer

brihard said:


> That would just get nuked in the Supreme Court the way it was always gonna get nuked in the Supreme Court, and cost the government a bunch of money.


So pay him the 10 million now?


----------



## dapaterson

OldSolduer said:


> So pay him the 10 million now?


Only if they leave him to be tortured by a foreign government.


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:


> Only if they leave him to be tortured by a foreign government.


And to some Canadians anything the US does is torture


----------



## The Bread Guy

South of the border, the wheels grind slowly, but exceedingly fine ....








						Islamic State 'Beatle' gets life term for US hostage deaths
					

ALEXANDRIA, Va. (AP) — British national El Shafee Elsheikh was sentenced to life in prison Friday for his role in an Islamic State scheme that took roughly two dozen Westerners hostage a decade ago.




					apnews.com
				











						Elshafee El Sheikh: Ex-Briton 'Isis Beatle' sentenced to life in prison
					

Elshafee El Sheikh, 34, was found guilty in April of kidnapping and supporting a terrorist group.



					www.bbc.com
				











						Islamic State member El Shafee Elsheikh sentenced to life in prison
					

The former British national was involved in taking hostage and beheading American journalists and aid workers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## OldSolduer

Life is too good for these barbarians.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Well, THAT'S a twist ....








						Shamima Begum: Canada will investigate spy smuggling allegations
					

PM Justin Trudeau will examine accusations that Shamima Begum was smuggled into Syria by a Canadian spy.



					www.bbc.com
				











						Teen who fled U.K., joined ISIS was smuggled into Syria by spy for Canada: report
					

A spy for Canada is accused of smuggling a teenager into Syria in 2015, after she fled the United Kingdom to join the Islamic State group, according to BBC News.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				











						Canada spy smuggled UK’s Shamima Begum into Syria: New book
					

Inquiry is demanded after new book suggests UK covered up Canada’s role in British teenager’s journey to join ISIL.




					www.aljazeera.com
				



I guess now we know one way Canada was keeping track of at least some comings & goings ...


----------



## KevinB

More like Informant not Spy.


----------



## The Bread Guy

KevinB said:


> More like Informant not Spy.


Not as sexy in the headlines   Although there's a hair-splitting case to be made that the "informant" is the "spy" while their int boss is a "handler" or "case officer", no?


----------



## KevinB

Agreed on not as sexy a headline.  

I’d argue informants are somewhat disposable assets, who do other things are their primary job and the information dealing is a secondary activity. 

Spies are a mission dedicated asset and you actually value and try to get back.  

   Both will have case officers/handlers. 

 But that’s just me.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Agreed on all points, but I wonder how many folks reading the headlines will think it was a Canadian int service person, not a source for someone like that?


----------



## OldSolduer

The Bread Guy said:


> Agreed on all points, but I wonder how many folks reading the headlines will think it was a Canadian int service person, not a source for someone like that?


I’m kinda surprised JT didn’t publicly scold CSIS.

Someone must have told him to STFU


----------



## CBH99

The Bread Guy said:


> Agreed on all points, but I wonder how many folks reading the headlines will think it was a Canadian int service person, not a source for someone like that?


Guaranteed, folks in coffee shops across the country are murmuring about how 'OUR spies did what!? Blah blah blah...'

Same folks who've only heard of CSIS like once before,  And don't understand the difference between intelligence officers, agents, or the network of random ppl that gather it all.  

Good thing they'll soon hear "And in other news... Trying to stay relevant while talking about covid!"  and forget all about it


----------



## CBH99

brihard said:


> That would just get nuked in the Supreme Court the way it was always gonna get nuked in the Supreme Court, and cost the government a bunch of money.


 Why would I get nuked in the Supreme Court?  

(Genuinely curious -  You guys are much more up-to-date than I am on these these types of legal matters.)


If someone is granted citizenship (aka not born here) can that citizenship not be revoked under extreme circumstances?


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:


> Why would I get nuked in the Supreme Court?
> 
> (Genuinely curious -  You guys are much more up-to-date than I am on these these types of legal matters.)
> 
> 
> If someone is granted citizenship (aka not born here) can that citizenship not be revoked under extreme circumstances?



It would set up two tiers of citizenship; one revocable, the other not. Very clear cut discrimination based on national original case under s. 15 of the Charter. Now, a sufficiently motivated government could legislate it anyway and use the Notwithstanding Clause, but absent that it’s doomed to fail.


----------



## Maxman1

It depends on whether they gave up citizenship of their birth country or are a dual citizen. If they have dual citizenship in another country, they could be stripped of Canadian citizenship. If they only have one citizenship, then no, because that would leave them a stateless person.


----------



## brihard

Maxman1 said:


> It depends on whether they gave up citizenship of their birth country or are a dual citizen. If they have dual citizenship in another country, they could be stripped of Canadian citizenship. If they only have one citizenship, then no, because that would leave them a stateless person.


Separate issue, but the existence of a second citizenship would not be germane to a s.15 claim against revocation of Canadian citizenship.

Citizenship _can_ be revoked, but that’s for fraud/misrepresentation in your citizenship process. That’s been upheld in court.


----------



## KevinB

brihard said:


> Separate issue, but the existence of a second citizenship would not be germane to a s.15 claim against revocation of Canadian citizenship.
> 
> Citizenship _can_ be revoked, but that’s for fraud/misrepresentation in your citizenship process. That’s been upheld in court.


One could argue that if you are supporting an enemy, then your citizenship oath was taken fraudulently…


----------



## brihard

KevinB said:


> One could argue that if you are supporting an enemy, then your citizenship oath was taken fraudulently…


That would have to be true at the application stage. Someone who naturalized in good faith and then radicalized later would not have obtained citizenship fraudulently. Bearing in mind that we’re in the Canadian foreign fighters thread, most of them that I’m aware of radicalized as young adults. The chain of relies being quoted here relates to Khalifa, who got scooped and convicted by the Americans. He radicalized much later in life than he naturalized.

Make no mistake, I don’t _want_ these individuals to be citizens of Canada. This dude in particular is a total piece of shit. I’m just describing the state of our law as accurately as I can.


----------



## brihard

Update: Kimberly Polman has been repatriated and arrested, with informed speculation that her return to Canada may be linked to major medical issues.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/two-women-two-children-repatriated-syrian-detention-camps-1.6629838


----------



## brihard

Looks like a second one, Oumaima Chouay, also returned to Canada at the same time. She has been arrested and charged with several terrorism offences.



			Arrest of Canadian citizen returning from Syria | Royal Canadian Mounted Police


----------



## Czech_pivo

brihard said:


> It would set up two tiers of citizenship; one revocable, the other not. Very clear cut discrimination based on national original case under s. 15 of the Charter. Now, a sufficiently motivated government could legislate it anyway and use the Notwithstanding Clause, but absent that it’s doomed to fail.


So when someone takes the Oath of Citizenship to become a CDN, the meaning behind that Oath means nothing in essence? “That I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada.”
Can it not be argued that when someone actively chooses to openly break those laws that they have broken their Oath of Citizenship, thereby negating their own CDN citizenship?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Czech_pivo said:


> So when someone takes the Oath of Citizenship to become a CDN, the meaning behind that Oath means nothing in essence? “That I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada.”
> Can it not be argued that when someone actively chooses to openly break those laws that they have broken their Oath of Citizenship, thereby negating their own CDN citizenship?



I want to agree with you so badly.  But I suspect there is some legal eagle who will show some legislation that counters and wins.


----------



## brihard

Czech_pivo said:


> So when someone takes the Oath of Citizenship to become a CDN, the meaning behind that Oath means nothing in essence? “That I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada.”
> Can it not be argued that when someone actively chooses to openly break those laws that they have broken their Oath of Citizenship, thereby negating their own CDN citizenship?


It could be argued, but likely unsuccessfully. The punishments for crimes are set out in the laws establishing those crimes. I described the Charter considerations that would likely make this untenable; I stand by what I already said.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Czech_pivo said:


> So when someone takes the Oath of Citizenship to become a CDN, the meaning behind that Oath means nothing in essence? “That I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada.”
> Can it not be argued that when someone actively chooses to openly break those laws that they have broken their Oath of Citizenship, thereby negating their own CDN citizenship?


If that's the case, what's stopping the government from revoking the citizenship of someone who's born in Canada and never had to swear an oath to "faithfully observe the laws of Canada"?  Guilty of breaking the law?  No more citizenship for you, even if you're born here - off you go to where you came from!  Oh, wait ...

I think that's where you get the concepts of two-tiered citizenship and not leaving people stateless that don't fly.  I'm not a lawyer, either, so I stand to be corrected.


----------



## Czech_pivo

The Bread Guy said:


> If that's the case, what's stopping the government from revoking the citizenship of someone who's born in Canada and never had to swear an oath to "faithfully observe the laws of Canada"?  Guilty of breaking the law?  No more citizenship for you, even if you're born here - off you go to where you came from!  Oh, wait ...
> 
> I think that's where you get the concepts of two-tiered citizenship and not leaving people stateless that don't fly.  I'm not a lawyer, either, so I stand to be corrected.


Then what's the point of taking an 'Oath of Citizenship', why bother it all that crap if the words behind it hold no water?


----------



## ueo

brihard said:


> Update: Kimberly Polman has been repatriated and arrested, with informed speculation that her return to Canada may be linked to major medical issues.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/two-women-two-children-repatriated-syrian-detention-camps-1.6629838


Omg, yet another ' POLITACAL' cue jumper. Bet she gets immediate top tier med help. no 36 hr ER waits.


----------



## The Bread Guy

ueo said:


> Omg, yet another ' POLITACAL' cue jumper. Bet she gets immediate top tier med help. no 36 hr ER waits.


How is a Canadian citizen coming back to Canada a queue jumper?


----------



## ueo

The Bread Guy said:


> How is a Canadian citizen coming back to Canada a queue jumper?


Not if they stand in line for srevices. Bet no one reports on howv fast she  recieves  attention. BTW didnt she support ISIS through marriage contrary to federal law?


----------



## The Bread Guy

ueo said:


> Not if they stand in line for srevices. Bet no one reports on howv fast she  recieves  attention.


Guessing that in jail, they get whatever health care services people in jail get.


ueo said:


> BTW didnt she support ISIS through marriage contrary to federal law?


We'll have to see what the court says.


----------



## brihard

ueo said:


> Not if they stand in line for srevices. Bet no one reports on howv fast she  recieves  attention. BTW didnt she support ISIS through marriage contrary to federal law?


1. She was born in Canada and is entitled to re-enter the country.

2. She was immediately arrested on return, but crown will have to determine if she can be _proven_ to have done anything that reaches the threshold of a chargeable offence. That can be difficult to establish, and to prove in court under the same laws that protect you and I if we’re accused of something.


----------



## KevinB

The Bread Guy said:


> If that's the case, what's stopping the government from revoking the citizenship of someone who's born in Canada and never had to swear an oath to "faithfully observe the laws of Canada"?  Guilty of breaking the law?  No more citizenship for you, even if you're born here - off you go to where you came from!  Oh, wait ...
> 
> I think that's where you get the concepts of two-tiered citizenship and not leaving people stateless that don't fly.  I'm not a lawyer, either, so I stand to be corrected.


You cannot revoke citizenship from a single national born there.  You can just dump them in a deep hole.  

Dual nationals by naturalization however can have the naturalized citizenship revoked if it is shown that they fraudulently acquired citizenship, usually by lying on the naturalization forms, and by fraudulently taking the oath of citizenship.   
  Down here it’s generally used for war criminals that lied of their naturalization paperwork (South Africans and FYR countries these days).


----------



## Maxman1

The Bread Guy said:


> Guessing that in jail, they get whatever health care services people in jail get.


----------



## brihard

KevinB said:


> You cannot revoke citizenship from a single national born there.  You can just dump them in a deep hole.
> 
> Dual nationals by naturalization however can have the naturalized citizenship revoked if it is shown that they fraudulently acquired citizenship, usually by lying on the naturalization forms, and by fraudulently taking the oath of citizenship.
> Down here it’s generally used for war criminals that lied of their naturalization paperwork (South Africans and FYR countries these days).



Similar here, and actually some of the same with war criminals (FRY and Rwanda among others). Misrepresentation in the process is grounds for loss of permanent residency and citizenship. However, that’s only where citizenship was itself acquired fraudulently. Later criminality doesn’t cut it.


----------



## OldSolduer

The Bread Guy said:


> Guessing that in jail, they get whatever health care services people in jail get.


In jail if you have a bad (fill in whatever body part here) or you have a condition that is chronic, you get health care super quick. No questions asked, you go on a med escort sometimes twice a day for IV treatment etc. If you are the average citizen, you get to wait while these assholes take your spot.

These "guests" when they are on the outside don't eat correctly (something they have in common with most people), don't exercise enough (unless they are avoiding arrest), use alcohol and illicit substances (meth etc) and often take advantage of the law abiding citizens .

When they are incarcerated they sure do care then, and will call the Ombudsman if things don't go their way. Big babies.


----------



## The Bread Guy

OldSolduer said:


> In jail if you have a bad (fill in whatever body part here) or you have a condition that is chronic, you get health care super quick. No questions asked, you go on a med escort sometimes twice a day for IV treatment etc.
> 
> These "guests" when they are on the outside don't eat correctly (something they have in common with most people), don't exercise enough (unless they are avoiding arrest), use alcohol and illicit substances (meth etc) and often take advantage of the law abiding citizens .
> 
> When they are incarcerated they sure do care then, and will call the Ombudsman if things don't go their way. Big babies.


Thanks for the rest of the story.


----------



## OldSolduer

The Bread Guy said:


> Thanks for the rest of the story.


You're welcome. 

And the more high profile one of these assholes is the quicker the health care. 

And the taxpayer gets bumped down a notch.


----------



## Kat Stevens

brihard said:


> 1. She was born in Canada and is entitled to re-enter the country.
> 
> 2. She was immediately arrested on return, but crown will have to determine if she can be _proven_ to have done anything that reaches the threshold of a chargeable offence. That can be difficult to establish, and to prove in court under the same laws that protect you and I if we’re accused of something.


Out on bail already, 10.5 mil apology to follow shortly.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Kat Stevens said:


> Out on bail already, 10.5 mil apology to follow shortly.


Any info on the price for bond?  On who put up the $$ for her to make the bail amount? 

Question to those on here will a legal background - "prohibited from possessing a cellphone or any other device capable of connecting to the internet" - that phase/condition, what if the individual sits next to another individual holding a cellphone or device connected to the internet and then instructs the person holding said device on where to go on the internet and accessing the internet in that manner, does that break the terms of the bond?  Since the wording states "prohibited from possessing", can she borrow/use said device?


----------



## Czech_pivo

Czech_pivo said:


> Any info on the price for bond?  On who put up the $$ for her to make the bail amount?
> 
> Question to those on here will a legal background - "prohibited from possessing a cellphone or any other device capable of connecting to the internet" - that phase/condition, what if the individual sits next to another individual holding a cellphone or device connected to the internet and then instructs the person holding said device on where to go on the internet and accessing the internet in that manner, does that break the terms of the bond?  Since the wording states "prohibited from possessing", can she borrow/use said device?


Also, since she has not been a resident of BC or any province for greater than 1yr, she should no longer be eligible for ANY provincially covered health care - none, zero.  

She should be treated the exact same as a Canadian citizen who might have moved to the US for 3yrs for work purposes, had no longer been a resident of Canada and may or may not have filed an income tax in Canada during this time, dependant on if they had any 'substantial' assets remaining in Canada (like a house or non-registered brokerage account). Once you are no longer a resident of Ontario (and all other CDN provinces I believe) for greater than 7 months your OHIP coverage ceases for 1yr.  There is a separate process to get OHIP reinstated, from what I understand its not automatically given to you once you return.


----------



## OldSolduer

Czech_pivo said:


> Also, since she has not been a resident of BC or any province for greater than 1yr, she should no longer be eligible for ANY provincially covered health care - none, zero.


Like that will EVER happen. She will be treated for any medical issue she has, for free.

 Well its paid for by you and me. These jerks have a way of gaining a voice with the "a cup of tea and a hug " crowd who feel badly for her.


----------



## lenaitch

Czech_pivo said:


> Question to those on here will a legal background - "prohibited from possessing a cellphone or any other device capable of connecting to the internet" - that phase/condition, what if the individual sits next to another individual holding a cellphone or device connected to the internet and then *instructs the person* holding said device on where to go on the internet and accessing the internet in that manner, does that break the terms of the bond?  Since the wording states "prohibited from possessing", can she borrow/use said device?


Sounds like the concept of 'constructive possession'.


----------



## ueo

lenaitch said:


> Sounds like the concept of 'constructive possession'.


Ummm what? Deserves some ampflication and explaination, least ways for us Grunts.


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## Brad Sallows

Since I favour single-class-of-citizen so strongly, I find it pretty much impossible to argue for some kind of two-tier treatment, even based on birth vs naturalization of citizenship.  Once we accept people into the family, they are ours to deal with.  Not sure how to share that responsibility for people with dual citizenship.

One path forward could be to enumerate (and this would probably have to be done constitutionally) some civil rights (not basic human or natural rights) that can be taken away upon conviction for selected, severe, offences.  A minor example would be denial of right to vote in any election.  Such sanctions could be applied regardless of method by which citizenship was acquired, therefore not being "two-tier".


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## Fishbone Jones

The Bread Guy said:


> If that's the case, what's stopping the government from revoking the citizenship of someone who's born in Canada and never had to swear an oath to "faithfully observe the laws of Canada"?  Guilty of breaking the law?  No more citizenship for you, even if you're born here - off you go to where you came from!  Oh, wait ...
> 
> I think that's where you get the concepts of two-tiered citizenship and not leaving people stateless that don't fly.  I'm not a lawyer, either, so I stand to be corrected.


That's why the Brits had Australia and French had the South American penal colony on Devil's Island, amongst others.😁


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## CBH99

Brad Sallows said:


> Since I favour single-class-of-citizen so strongly, I find it pretty much impossible to argue for some kind of two-tier treatment, even based on birth vs naturalization of citizenship.  Once we accept people into the family, they are ours to deal with.  Not sure how to share that responsibility for people with dual citizenship.
> 
> One path forward could be to enumerate (and this would probably have to be done constitutionally) some civil rights (not basic human or natural rights) that can be taken away upon conviction for selected, severe, offences.  A minor example would be denial of right to vote in any election.  Such sanctions could be applied regardless of method by which citizenship was acquired, therefore not being "two-tier".


That’s actually a very interesting idea…


One of my questions would be…what would prevent those individuals from voting?

I know we say they can’t vote…but what’s to keep them from going down to their local voting station & casting a ballot?  

(Since voting is anonymous & I don’t think we would let local volunteers access each person’s legal status, which would be a Charter Rights nightmare of its own.)


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## CBH99

Czech_pivo said:


> Any info on the price for bond?  On who put up the $$ for her to make the bail amount?
> 
> Question to those on here will a legal background - "prohibited from possessing a cellphone or any other device capable of connecting to the internet" - that phase/condition, what if the individual sits next to another individual holding a cellphone or device connected to the internet and then instructs the person holding said device on where to go on the internet and accessing the internet in that manner, does that break the terms of the bond?  Since the wording states "prohibited from possessing", can she borrow/use said device?


Good questions.  

I mean she isn’t technically owning a device that can connect, so she isn’t technically breaching that condition.  



However the intent of that condition is to prevent her from accessing the Internet.  

I imagine the person holding the phone & accessing what she’s asking them to _could_ be considered an accomplice, since they are willfully helping her to sidestep her condition?


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## brihard

CBH99 said:


> Good questions.
> 
> I mean she isn’t technically owning a device that can connect, so she isn’t technically breaching that condition.
> 
> 
> 
> However the intent of that condition is to prevent her from accessing the Internet.
> 
> I imagine the person holding the phone & accessing what she’s asking them to _could_ be considered an accomplice, since they are willfully helping her to sidestep her condition?


Plus the wording would likely be something like “…not use or possess any device capable of…”. On one hand you could argue such a scenario could be ‘use’. On the other hand, one could argue that the risk that condition is in place to address would be controlled by someone else possessing and using the device. Bail conditions exist to control or mitigate risk, they aren’t a punishment.


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## lenaitch

ueo said:


> Ummm what? Deserves some ampflication and explaination, least ways for us Grunts.


Ya sorry.  Very generally, it is the concept of something not in your actual physical possession but you benefit from it and exercise a degree of control over it.  It's generally used in drug offences and charges such as possession of stolen property.

As Brihard points out, a lot would depend on the wording of the release order.  Terms such as 'use' or 'access' would cover off these other situations.  This isn't a new concept and I imagine there are templates for the judiciary to use.


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## ueo

lenaitch said:


> Ya sorry.  Very generally, it is the concept of something not in your actual physical possession but you benefit from it and exercise a degree of control over it.  It's generally used in drug offences and charges such as possession of stolen property.
> 
> As Brihard points out, a lot would depend on the wording of the release order.  Terms such as 'use' or 'access' would cover off these other situations.  This isn't a new concept and I imagine there are templates for the judiciary to use.


Thanks


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