# Training, Tech to Prevent Accidental Discharges?



## The Bread Guy (12 Aug 2006)

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

*Protecting the Protectors:  Training to put an end to accidental discharges*
James V. Marshall, Marine Corps Gazette, posted 1 Jul 06
http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2006/06marshall.html

In spite of intensive training, accidental discharge of small weapons continues to be a problem within the Marine Corps, as well as throughout the U.S. military. Gaining a better understanding of these unfortunate and often tragic occurrences is critical to the process of their elimination. During the course of my training as a rifle and pistol coach, while serving in the Marine Corps from 1985 to 1993, I first began to observe and analyze the characteristics of accidental discharges of small weapons. Since 1996 I have served as a licensed firearms instructor for Tennessee law enforcement and over this time have gained an even greater appreciation and understanding of the nature of accidental discharges.

Early on in my military training I dismissed these accidental discharges as merely the end result of carelessness and/or negligence, along with inadequate training. However, I soon realized that my initial assessment was not accurate in most cases. Seasoned and highly trained soldiers could also fall prey to accidental discharges. In 2001 there were five deaths in special weapons and tactics training exercises in this country as cited by the National Tactical Officers Association. Were these the result of inadequate training? When accidental discharges happen among highly skilled and trained law enforcement and military personnel, given the intensity of their training, it is counterintuitive to merely dismiss these events as being the result of inadequate training. What then is the root cause of this problem?

Human Error
The vast majority of accidental discharges occur as a result of human error. This insidious quality of mankind cannot be avoided. You can certainly reduce the incidence of human error by extensive training and awareness, but human error will always exist and cannot be totally eliminated by training alone. It has been said that familiarity breeds complacency, which is yet another opportunity for human error. Furthermore, the factors of fatigue and stress can greatly increase the probability of human error. Few if any other professions can compare to the level of stress and fatigue experienced within the U.S. military.

When the consequences of human error can lead to life-threatening outcomes, it becomes essential to adopt critical countermeasures to reduce the likelihood of human error. This concept is the very foundation of the field of loss prevention. The losses as a result of the accidental discharges within the U.S. military are substantial and deserve our attention. In keeping with these principles, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld issued a challenge to the U.S. military to reduce the accident rate by 50 percent by the end of 2005.

Obviously, we cannot eliminate stress, and we cannot train away human error, so how can we expect to reduce the inevitable bad outcomes like accidental discharges that occur when these elements converge? One answer to this dilemma lies in first identifying the common denominator of all accidental discharges. By analyzing the common features of accidental discharges, there is one critical element that emerges as the common denominator—namely a chambered live round.

The Solution
The solution then for eliminating accidental discharges must lie in preventing the chambering of live ammunition, except of course when engaged in live ammunition training or combat. There are many ways to block the firing chamber of weapons, but unfortunately, most of these disable the weapon. Clearly, preservation of accessibility and functionality of a weapon is essential for military and law enforcement purposes.

In the course of my law enforcement training, I utilized one device called the Saf-T-Round (http://www.safrgun.com/saftround.htm), an ejectable visible load indicator that meets all of the above demands. This device, constructed of an international orange or black polymer, blocks the firing chamber of weapons and also has attached to it a flag or indicator that gives visual and tactile proof of a chamber clear status. However, unlike other load indicators and, most importantly, a totally unique feature of this remarkably simple but effective device is that it has a brass back, identical to live ammunition, that is engaged by the weapon extractor. As a result, the simple maneuver of charging the weapon instantly extracts and then ejects the Saf-T-Round, while chambering a live round (provided a loaded magazine is in place). Consequently, the Saf-T-Round when in place provides visible safety from accidental discharge, but preserves instantaneous availability and functionality of the weapon. The recently developed retention system for the Saf-T-Round is a hook and loop strap that attaches to the weapon barrel and, by retractable lanyard, attaches to the Saf-T-Round tab so that once ejected the Saf-T-Round is always available for reuse. This is a valuable combination of features that has numerous applications within law enforcement.

The Benefits
As I recall from my Marine Corps experiences, I can see a multitude of important applications for the Saf-T-Round that, in my opinion, would greatly reduce the accidental discharge rate. At the recruit depots this device would assist drill instructors and primary marksmanship instructors by ensuring a recruit’s weapon is safe, without requiring a lengthy detailed physical inspection, thus eliminating the long lines of Marines waiting to get their weapons inspected. Time reduction would be a key benefit in this example as the Saf-T-Round would allow junior and senior Marines to get along to the next step or task to be carried out without getting bogged down.

Regarding advanced training schools, the Saf-T-Round would help at any military occupational specialty training schools by providing safety during extensive weapons handling and live fire exercises.

During live fire exercises the Saf-T-Round would provide visual security to all Marines involved. Firing line noncommissioned officers would not have to worry as the Marines step up to the line with the Saf-T-Round visible. This device would assure them that the weapon is clearly safe, allowing for a calmer and safer environment for both the Marine who is shooting and the Marine in charge of the line.

Transportation of weapons and Marines can produce a very stressful situation. The Saf-T-Round would provide a visual security of all weapons during the transfer. This visual security would apply to weapons in transit via shipping or physical transportation by Marines on post to various locations. From a platoon in the back of a 7-ton truck to packaged weapons being transported from the manufacturers to the actual buyers, the Saf-T-Round would offer a more definitive, secure transportation.

Use of this additional safety measure would also ensure that the crew chief and the rest of the crew on helicopters, tracked vehicles, and light armored vehicles know that weapons on board are completely safe. As well, the current requirement for the breakdown of weapons being transported on commercial airlines could be obviated totally with use of the Saf-T-Round. Additionally, checking weapons in and out of the armory could be expedited with the presence of the Saf-T-Round, all the while reassuring the armorer that the weapons are safe.

When standing on post in nonhostile countries, the Saf-T-Round offers Marines an additional safe way to secure their weapons. Live ammunition may be authorized for posts in and outside of the United States, but it is not authorized to be loaded in chamber without a viable threat to the Marine or government property in some given situations. The existence of the Saf-T-Round in such a situation would be better than just having a magazine inserted into the weapon without any outward reassurance of a safe weapon. Once again the Saf-T-Round would assure the inspecting officer that the weapon is clearly safe by visual inspection without extensive physical inspection. For situations when one does not want to draw attention to the weapon, the Saf-T-Round is available in black.

Firearms training within the Marine Corps has evolved over the years into a highly developed process. Standing operating procedures are in place for very good reasons. The Saf-T-Round is designed as an additional standard control measure to enhance these rules and heighten safety awareness. The Saf-T-Round is not intended to short circuit basic firearms safety. In other words the Saf-T-Round is an adjunct, not a replacement, to intensive firearms training just as the airbag, shoulder harness, and lap belt are designed to supplement and not replace intensive driver safety instruction.

In summary, we cannot entirely eliminate human error or the precipitating forces of stress and fatigue. Nor can we hope to ever completely eradicate accidental discharge by rote methods of training, because in the final analysis accidental discharge always involves two elements—the weapon and the individual handling the weapon. Even our most intense training methods still leave us vulnerable to accidental discharge. However, by adopting truly effective loss prevention methods like functional load indicators (e.g., the Saf-T-Round), we can neutralize the forces that leave the door open for accidental discharge. By so doing I believe the employment of the Saf-T-Round would greatly contribute to the reduction of accidental discharge and as a result reduce the tremendous costs resulting from accidental discharges, such as acute and chronic medical care, short- and long-term disability, death gratuities, retraining, investigations, etc. Finally many readers may not be aware that the Saf-T-Round is now available through the Department of Defense supply system.

>Mr. Marshall served 8 years in the Marine Corps and is a licensed firearms instructor for the State of Tennessee.


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## Big Red (12 Aug 2006)

:

Why would you want to carry around a weapon that doesn't have a round in the chamber?  It is not "instantaneous availability and functionality of the weapon" if you have to action the weapon before firing.

Most NDs happen when there are BS rules like loading/unloading weapons at camp gates, entering buildings, DFACs, etc.  Action the weapon and leave it alone.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Aug 2006)

Makes sense....

Am I the only one wondering if the author has any stock in the company????


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## paracowboy (12 Aug 2006)

put a round in the chamber, put weapon on 'Safe". Weapon is harmless.

Want to keep accidents from happening with firearms? Do this:

Rule 1: All firearms are *ALWAYS* loaded, *ALL* the time.

Rule 2: *NEVER* let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy, or see dead. 

Rule 3: Keep your finger *OFF* the trigger until your *SIGHTS* are on the target.

Rule 4: Be *SURE* of your target, and what is *BEYOND* it.

Here's a crazy idea - how 'bout we (as a military-type outfit) handle our firearms with enough frequency that we don't have to train troops over and over in what they do, and how they work? Maybe...I dunno...have it become SECOND-FUCKING-NATURE? 

Gizmos, widgets, and gadgets are not the answer. Training is.


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## vonGarvin (12 Aug 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> put a round in the chamber, put weapon on 'Safe". Weapon is harmless.
> 
> Want to keep accidents from happening with firearms? Do this:
> 
> ...


+100%!!!!!!!!!!
First: As for handling firearms, why not issue blank ammo EVERY TIME you get your weapons (for anything other than live fire and drill, naturally)
So, you're in H1 on the way to J7.  You load the weapon in your room with a magazine holding 30 blank rounds.  Your BFA is attached.  You ready the weapon, you form up in a tactical formation (ack ack) and move in a tactical fashion to J7.  You enter the building, not making safe because you are already trained and have passed the handling test.  The weapons remain readied at the back of the class as you take your C6 GPMG class.  
Second: treat ALL NDs more seriously.  The fines/punishments awarded should reflect the serious nature of the offense (if convicted), the same seriousness as though you fired your weapon at the wrong time, injuring or killing a comrade, a civilian, or just letting loose, giving away your position in the ambush site, resulting in a horrible situation.  The troops will make mistakes (eg: NDs in J7 or worse), but given appropriate punishments, they will probably not EVER do it again, especially if given enough remedial weapons' handling training!
My $0.02 worth


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## darmil (12 Aug 2006)

> Want to keep accidents from happening with firearms? Do this:
> 
> Rule 1: All firearms are ALWAYS loaded, ALL the time.
> 
> ...


I agree totally. I always tell my troops to have good muzzle control even in Garrison.If I see a troop swinging his or her rifle around having  poor muzzle control. I approach them and tell them the reasons why and to smarten up.





> Rule 1: All firearms are ALWAYS loaded, ALL the time.


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## George Wallace (12 Aug 2006)

Para -  100+ %

The only way to do it.  There is no substitution for this.


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## 2 Cdo (12 Aug 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> put a round in the chamber, put weapon on 'Safe". Weapon is harmless.
> 
> Want to keep accidents from happening with firearms? Do this:
> 
> ...



Damn, I would almost think this is being spoken by a true soldier!  ;D

Actually, I couldn't have said it better. The more comfortable a person becomes with a loaded/readied weapon the less chance that person has of committing an ND. If people are not comfortable or competent with handling a loaded weapon then maybe it's time for a career change!


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## Gunnerlove (12 Aug 2006)

People follow drills without thinking about what they are doing as they have done it so many times before. Now throw in some stress and dial back everyones sleep.....

My father taught me weapon safety, and to this day I "say out loud" while clearing a weapon "feed path clear, chamber clear, weapon clear". Next time you are at the range watch people going through the motions because they have done the drills so many times.


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## GO!!! (12 Aug 2006)

Big Red said:
			
		

> Most NDs happen when there are BS rules like loading/unloading weapons at camp gates, entering buildings, DFACs, etc.  Action the weapon and leave it alone.



Most effective strategy IMHO, if combined with the blanks at all times strategy. 

Also, in regards to NDs, change the rules so that _anyone_ can reccommend a charge for it, and have a universal punishment - officer or enlisted. It's the same crime.


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## Devlin (12 Aug 2006)

Agree with all the comments 110%

I have had numerous arguements with more Snr. members of my former unit about having weapons out all the time, after about 4 yrs of repeating myself it finally became standard practice to have weapons out all the time when training.


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## SeaKingTacco (13 Aug 2006)

> Also, in regards to NDs, change the rules so that anyone can reccommend a charge for it, and have a universal punishment - officer or enlisted. It's the same crime.



Got to disagree with you, GO!!.  Let's say we set the fine for an ND at $1000.00 (completely hypothetically).  A Pte and a Capt both have an ND at the same time.  Which do you think will have their take home pay hurt worse by the $1000.00 fine?

There is also the issue of both responsibility that comes with rank and time in service.  Both have to be taken into account as well.  In summary, all things being equal, the longer you have been in and the higher your rank, the more expensive I think your ND should be.


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## hayterowensound (13 Aug 2006)

During my infantry training at Petewawa 1994, when we had our weapons there was a Blank round in the chamber and 9 in the mag. But there was no B.F.A. 

One day towards the end of my course, my section was sitting somewhere out in the mattawa plains taking a meal break I think. Details are a little sketchy. But what happened next I will never forget. We were told to safety our weapons.  We all started doing are safety and then all of a sudden a weapon discharges right between my head and another troops. With no B.F.A blanks are loud as hell. The other troop and I were all right, the other troop went to the medics to get his hearing checked. The troop who made the error while doing his safety dropped his weapon as soon as it happened. And then here come the instructors. The section was as quiet and still as I had ever seen them. We were told to stand up with our weapons above our heads, but the troop who had the discharge, refused to touch his weapon and was crying and shaking like nothing I have ever seen! The Mcpls and Sgts took the troop of to the side and went at him. I still can see him running with his weapon above his head crying and saying that he was scared of his weapon. He was never charged.

I agree 100% with having at least blanks in your weapon. We were issued 10 rounds at the start of the course, it was part of our kit.The weapons are always hot and must be treated accordingly! No room for error! 

Hayter


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## George Wallace (13 Aug 2006)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Got to disagree with you, GO!!.  Let's say we set the fine for an ND at $1000.00 (completely hypothetically).  A Pte and a Capt both have an ND at the same time.  Which do you think will have their take home pay hurt worse by the $1000.00 fine?
> 
> There is also the issue of both responsibility that comes with rank and time in service.  Both have to be taken into account as well.  In summary, all things being equal, the longer you have been in and the higher your rank, the more expensive I think your ND should be.



I agree with that.  Perhaps Paracowboy GO!!  does to, in that the punishment be universal, not to a common amount, but to a common percentage of Pay.  If all knew that they would be fined 50% of their months pay for an ND, that may have a dramatic affect on how they would view it.


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## paracowboy (13 Aug 2006)

I like the idea of a sliding scale based on experience Time In and rank, too.
More TI, and/or higher rank = mo' money, mofo!


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## 1feral1 (13 Aug 2006)

Big Red said:
			
		

> :
> 
> 
> Most NDs happen when there are BS rules like loading/unloading weapons at camp gates, entering buildings, DFACs, etc.  Action the weapon and leave it alone.



I don't think rules at gates to certain zones (when there is proper sand bagged unload bays is BS). Due to OPSEC I will not discuss the SOPs where I am at, but wherever I am, it does make sense. Even with these tight regualtions, we had a UD which cost a young soldier his life earlier this year with a 9mm Vigilante pistol (Browning HP MkIII). The BOI is still ongoing with that one (google 'Jake Kovco' for more info, but horseplay is the most likely result in this instance). 

There is a time and place for a hot weapon, and behind gates in 'safe' zones, in your barracks or DFAC is not one of them. One has to take into effect cleaning (SBF and SAF), and of course the proper drills (DOWRs), which is only re-inforced with correct training and familiarisation.  After many UD's in Timor L'este in 1999/2000, Army put out a policy that all units would carry their weapons around (regardless of unit), with blank ammo. Over time the UD dropped almost to nil.

A UD here regardless of rank, will buy you a one way ticket home and loss of $$$$ tax free bucks. Regardless of rank.

+1 for Paracowboy who hit it all right on the nose.


Cheers,

Wes


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## GO!!! (13 Aug 2006)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Got to disagree with you, GO!!.  Let's say we set the fine for an ND at $1000.00 (completely hypothetically).  A Pte and a Capt both have an ND at the same time.  Which do you think will have their take home pay hurt worse by the $1000.00 fine?
> 
> There is also the issue of both responsibility that comes with rank and time in service.  Both have to be taken into account as well.  In summary, all things being equal, the longer you have been in and the higher your rank, the more expensive I think your ND should be.



I should have clarified.

When I say a "common punishment" I mean a percentage, not a fixed amount. Both the Captain and Pte. would lose a third of their monthly pay, and get some extra duties etc. 

The current system, which can see the same two NDs resulting in one of the individuals getting a $1000 fine and a stern talking to from the man, and the other being fined $1000 and spending 14 days in the defaulters room. Which punishment is more severe, given that the Captain makes 60K and the Pte makes 38K, and the jacking only lasts a few minutes?

I for one don't see why an officer can't be put on defaulters.


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## paracowboy (14 Aug 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I for one don't see why an officer can't be put on defaulters.


explain how that could work, dude. I'm genuinely curious.


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## vonGarvin (14 Aug 2006)

Officer on defaulters?  
A few years ago, I was on parade (in FFO) and my respirator carrier had dirt on it.  I know, I know, for shame!  My OC didn't notice, but the CQMS did and "told on me" 
Later that day, my OC asked me about it, I said yes, I had dirt on my carrier.  He then threatened to have me put on defaulters, eg: have the BOS conduct inspections on me.  I only said "yeah, right, like THAT will ever happen", but it came out more like "yes, sir".  Anyway, knowing this OC, he's also the guy who when I was assisting officer ragged me out for not telling him what the accused defence was to be for his charge parade ahead of time.  In other words, he thought that my job was to spy on the poor lad, get info out of him, and tell him what was going to be said, the whole "without prejudice" thing be damned!
So, I guess I mean to say that if an officer goes on defaulters, I suppose that the adjutant or orderly officer would be conducting the inspections, in the officer's lines, of course.
But as a punishment for an ND, defaulters would be weak.


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## ArmyRick (14 Aug 2006)

I train soldiers and I find that the best way to get rid of ND is to make the soldiers very, very proffecient with weapons. In initial trg (BMQ-DP1 INF) they are proned to make mistakes and have ND. IMO, having an ND with a blank round in trg and then charging the soldier is a good learning tool. I have rarely seen repeat offenders. Trained and expirienced soldiers having ND? Thats a different matter. Expirience, the weapons system, fatigue, complacency, etc play a role in the incidents. ALWAYS ALERT and KNOW YOUR WEAPONS!


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## GO!!! (14 Aug 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> explain how that could work, dude. I'm genuinely curious.



Have a similar rule to the Detention barracks apply. Reduced to Pte. for the duration of punishment, inspected by the BOS, menial tasks and show parades from 0530 to 2300. Resumption of rank during work hrs, marched to and from meals, etc.

It could be made to work, if the powers that be wanted it.

oh, and von garvin, having been a resident of the defaulters room on occasion, it is not a "weak" punishment. You are always tired, sore and rushed, with a Sgt breathing down your neck, and your daily job to do to boot. I'm the first to admit it was an effective punishment.


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## vonGarvin (15 Aug 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> oh, and von garvin, having been a resident of the defaulters room on occasion, it is not a "weak" punishment. You are always tired, sore and rushed, with a Sgt breathing down your neck, and your daily job to do to boot. I'm the first to admit it was an effective punishment.


Been there, done that.  I'm not downplaying defaulters: it sure has its merits.  I only said "weak" (perhaps a poor choice of word there on my part), just meant that it's rather low on the scale of punishments for such a serious offense, in my opinion.  That was all.


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## Red 6 (15 Aug 2006)

Hey guys: Ya'll that mentioned the four cardinal firearms rules are right on target. The fact is, you have to load and unload. We use the Saf-T round for training where I work and it's a good visual indicator on rifles and SMG's. It doesn't work on handguns if you are going to carry the weapon in a holster. The orange tab sticks out of the ejection port, and the pistol won't fit in the holster. We use a different thing called the Ammo Safe for our pistols. it has a yellow tag that sticks out the muzzle end of the barrel.


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## Big Red (15 Aug 2006)

Wesley "Over There" (formerly Down Under) said:
			
		

> I don't think rules at gates to certain zones (when there is proper sand bagged unload bays is BS). Due to OPSEC I will not discuss the SOPs where I am at, but wherever I am, it does make sense. Even with these tight regualtions, we had a UD which cost a young soldier his life earlier this year with a 9mm Vigilante pistol (Browning HP MkIII). The BOI is still ongoing with that one (google 'Jake Kovco' for more info, but horseplay is the most likely result in this instance).
> 
> There is a time and place for a hot weapon, and behind gates in 'safe' zones, in your barracks or DFAC is not one of them. One has to take into effect cleaning (SBF and SAF), and of course the proper drills (DOWRs), which is only re-inforced with correct training and familiarisation.  After many UD's in Timor L'este in 1999/2000, Army put out a policy that all units would carry their weapons around (regardless of unit), with blank ammo. Over time the UD dropped almost to nil.



If you are on a camp in Iraq, you are not really in a 'safe' zone especially the smaller FOBs or private compounds. There are locals working all over the place. If it were safe you wouldn't need your weapon.  Police don't unload their weapons everytime they walk into a building, why should soldiers who are overseas?  Your weapon will not shoot itself while its holstered or sitting on the floor under your chair. The VAST majority of NDs happen at the clearing barrels. Want to cut NDs, cut out the unnecessary loading/unloading and increase training time on weapons, especially handguns.  Having spooked US soldiers coming up to you and telling you that your weapon is gets annoying after a while.


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## KevinB (20 Aug 2006)

+1 to Para -- and a BIG FUCKING +1 to Big Red.


I was so fricken embarrased in KAF and BAF etc to walk around and see troops without loaded weapons (for them, -- I run hot cause I can  ;D).
  I fail to see a difference between trusting someone to run out of the gate in a hot state and them forcing them to dowload when entering base.


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## vonGarvin (20 Aug 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I fail to see a difference between trusting someone to run out of the gate in a hot state and them forcing them to dowload when entering base.


I think the problem stems from a serious case of "Bosnia-itis".  This sure as heck isn't Bosnia or a garrison for that matter!  Teach/train and you'll have no problems.  As someone else said: police in Canada don't unload everytime they have flatulence!


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## AJFitzpatrick (20 Aug 2006)

I acknowledge I am way out of my lane here but doesn't presence of the tags and flags on the chamber device give a clue to the bad guys with regards to readiness?


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## paracowboy (20 Aug 2006)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> I acknowledge I am way out of my lane here but doesn't presence of the tags and flags on the chamber device give a clue to the bad guys with regards to readiness?


worse. It develops a dependence on gadgetry. The Army has to learn that you can't compensate for lack of training with gizmos.


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## Red 6 (20 Aug 2006)

The orange or bright yellow safety indicators are mostly for training with weapons where you aren't using sims or MILES gear. To my way of thinking, there's no such thing as an "accidental discharge" or an "unintentional discharge." If a rifle fires when it's not supposed to, it's because the Soldier pulled the trigger. That's a negligent discharge. I had an experienced fire team leader in my company who had an ND in Kuwait in 2000. He cranked off a round in a tent where his squad was sleeping all around him. That happened about a week after a Marine was killed out at Udairi Range by another Marine with an "unloaded" pistol. This is why there are clearing barrels outside of mess halls, the PX and so forth.


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## TangoTwoBravo (20 Aug 2006)

Some NDs happen because people genuinley aren't trained on the weapon (happens with pistols).  The obvious solution is training.

Others happen because people are playing with the weapon.  The solution is discipline.

There is another group of NDs that happen because people are tired and in hurry.  You're the last one out of the vehicle, you have to clear your long gun and your pistol.  Its dark and you had to search for your 5.56mm round when it ejected and then fumbled to put in in your mag.  Now everybody is mounted and the crew commander is yelling for you to get moving.  You pull your pistol, don't see the magazine because its in the weapon, pull back the slide, see that the chamber is clear, release the slide.  You pause for a split second and then remember that you need a mag in the weapon to fire the action, and its OK if a round is in the mag.  You pull the trigger and the weapon functions as designed.  BLAM.


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## KevinB (20 Aug 2006)

The mistake is to confuse a technology which aids us greatly (which is a good thing) with a technology (or gadget) that is designed to replace (not augment) training.


The DCRA, NRA and many other firearms organisations that run shooting competitions require the use of chamber clear indicators DUE TO THE UNKNOWN level of skill of the shooters AND THE PARAMOUNT importance of safety.  In the military there is a given set of lowest common demonimator of skills.  In the CF it is MLOC (heck even the name MINIMUM LEVEL OF OCCUPATIONAL COMPETANCY- admits it is a min.) -- it needs to be increased (PERIOD).  DLOC - deployment level is a sad stated increase (in theory).
  However the understand is there that it is a requirement that deploying soldiers have a greater skill than those remaining in Canada.  This is a budget driven issue since the CF is incapable of funding all soldiers to a deployable level of competance.

 In a "warfighting realm" the requirment is such that soldiers and their weapon be in a readiness state higher than they a re typical trained with and on.  Add in stress and lack of sleep you get a recipie for disaster.

 Thats is a fact  

The need is then to reduce all the above factors - stress and sleep however are operational factors that cannot be reduced

1) Increase training: soldiers who are more familiar with the weapons are less likely to have ND's - increased competance, and the realization it is a tool not a toy.

2) Decrease weapon status changes: any mechanical action involving human input is subject to two variable -- the him and the machine - by limiting the interaction you limit the changes for something "bad" -- what this means is - pistols stay in holsters - rifles are racked when not in use.


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## TangoTwoBravo (20 Aug 2006)

Infidel has a great point.  Reducing the number of weapon status changes should eliminate a good number of NDs.  

That being said, I still cringe when I see soldiers (all nationalities) treating their weapon like its a baseball bat or golf club.


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## KevinB (20 Aug 2006)

2Bravo said:
			
		

> That being said, I still cringe when I see soldiers (all nationalities) treating their weapon like its a baseball bat or golf club.



While I hate to use the NDA -- quite clearly Negligent Performance of Duties, and NCO's should be cracking skulls on that...


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## paracowboy (20 Aug 2006)

2Bravo said:
			
		

> That being said, I still cringe when I see soldiers (all nationalities) treating their weapon like its a baseball bat or golf club.


single weapon state would go a long way to changing that attitude. If Snuffie didn't smarten up on his own, everyone around him would smarten him up in short order.


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## Devlin (20 Aug 2006)

Okay I am straying outside my lane of knowledge here but I'll say the following.

With 6 yrs in the reserve world as an officer, I can honestly say I was not at all comfortable with the pistol. I actually got to shoot it once in the entire 6 yrs I was in and I was a regular attendee who never missed training nights or weekends. 6 years and I got to fire it once. Sad.

i could use it and go through the drills and what not but it was by no means second nature and everytime I picked it up I and all the others needed a refresher. Yes I was a CSS officer but we shared an armoury with a fine infantry regiment who we crosstrained with on a number of occassions.


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## KevinB (20 Aug 2006)

Devlin for 99.9% of the Army the pistol is an ornament -- unless your doing CQB/HR work the pistol is not very pratical and thus gets relegated to the back of everyone mind and ignored.


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## 1feral1 (20 Aug 2006)

2Bravo said:
			
		

> Some NDs happen because people genuinley aren't trained on the weapon (happens with pistols).  The obvious solution is training.
> 
> Others happen because people are playing with the weapon.  The solution is discipline.
> 
> There is another group of NDs that happen because people are tired and in hurry.  You're the last one out of the vehicle, you have to clear your long gun and your pistol.  Its dark and you had to search for your 5.56mm round when it ejected and then fumbled to put in in your mag.  Now everybody is mounted and the crew commander is yelling for you to get moving.  You pull your pistol, don't see the magazine because its in the weapon, pull back the slide, see that the chamber is clear, release the slide.  You pause for a split second and then remember that you need a mag in the weapon to fire the action, and its OK if a round is in the mag.  You pull the trigger and the weapon functions as designed.  BLAM.



Good post. Prior to my deployment every person was  're-qualified' whether they liked it or not. This was backed up by an ROA (record of assessment) on all weapons from pistol through to M79.

As much as there was some whinging from a few old dogs, better to be that much more familiar with your weapons, and have the paperwork to back one up in the event of something happening. I look at it this way, if I can get a few more 40x46mm HEDP rds out of my wombat gun, and throw a few more F1 frags, its all fun anyways.

Same goes with the crew served wpns, the ole 12.7 QCB, there is nothing wrong with belting out a few liners of 4B1T, or a few 200rd mags out of the Minimi on the move out of the hatch of a LAV PC at moving targets. Overall is honing one's skills.

As for horseplay with pistols, this cost us one of our own here. I may have mentioned in a previous post, but google "Jake Kovco" and read whats coming out of the ongoing BOI.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (20 Aug 2006)

Devlin said:
			
		

> Okay I am straying outside my lane of knowledge here but I'll say the following.
> 
> With 6 yrs in the reserve world as an officer, I can honestly say I was not at all comfortable with the pistol. I actually got to shoot it once in the entire 6 yrs I was in and I was a regular attendee who never missed training nights or weekends. 6 years and I got to fire it once. Sad.
> 
> i could use it and go through the drills and what not but it was by no means second nature and everytime I picked it up I and all the others needed a refresher. Yes I was a CSS officer but we shared an armoury with a fine infantry regiment who we crosstrained with on a number of occassions.



If you don't have a decent qualification prac, say at least annually, you should not be using it. However, there is nothing wrong with T'sOET for concurrent activity, to keep one up on IAs and stoppages, and DOWRs. Practice makes perfect.

Who fault is it for not having the range time? Well blame that one on your Trg WO/trg cell. This should have been addressed in PXRs to ensure that something could be actioned for next time.

Any Unit is only as good as its training.

Pistols are for close range personal protection. I carry one, infact its on me right now. In the unload of course, as we are behind the wire. However outside the wire, its loaded.

My pistol is definalty NOT an ornamant. :akimbo:

Cheers,

Wes


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## Devlin (20 Aug 2006)

Wes

Thanks for the reply, my lack of comfort with the pistol was due to a number of factors;

- Small unit - I had three jobs (S&T Coy Pl. Comd. - my favorite, PAFFO/PAO - hated it, UIO - same as PAFFO/PAO just more paperwork)
- Time and resources - we had very few pistols to go around and even less people that were confident with them
- Competing priorities - the paperwork and crap may not be as much fun but it needs to get done


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## The Bread Guy (29 Aug 2006)

Someone who wasn't taught the Big Four....

 Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

*Army makes soldiers get comfortable carrying weapons  * 
Michael Felberbaum. 28 Aug 06
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20060826-1210-weaponsimmersion.html

PETERSBURG, Va. – In the early months of the war in Iraq, Army Spc. Paul J. Sturino was getting ready for guard duty one day when another soldier accidentally fired a bullet into his neck. 
“Somehow it went off,” his mother Christine Wetzel said as she recounted the official reports documenting her 21-year-old son's death on Sept. 22, 2003. 

“I just think we're sending young, young people into situations that they're not ready for,” she said from her home in Rice Lake, Wis. “They're inexperienced with weapons. ... Things happen and we pay the price.” 

The Army has begun taking steps to reduce accidental discharges through a new weapons immersion program fully implemented this year throughout the Army's 16 training facilities. 

Sturino, assigned to the 101st Airborne Division based at Fort Campbell, Ky., was one of 21 soldiers killed by accidental discharges in the combat zones of Iraq and Afghanistan since 2003, according to the Army's Combat Readiness Center. Eighty-nine others were injured. 

“Losing one U.S. soldier because of a negligent discharge or not handling the weapon right is one too many,” said Col. Paul Fortune, commander of the 23rd Quartermaster Brigade at Fort Lee, near Petersburg and 25 miles south of Richmond. 

Under the new program, “We put the weapon in the hands of the soldier as soon as possible to give them an opportunity to be familiar with how the weapon operates,” Fortune said. 

Soldiers receive their M-16 rifles – and blank ammunition – on the third day of training and keep it with them for the next six to 12 weeks, depending on the length of training. The only time they do not have their weapons is when they enter chapels or clinics, or when the rifles are checked in for the weekend. 

It's part of the “train as you fight” mentality that the Army hopes will keep soldiers safe. 

Soldiers such as Pvt. Kenneth Dykeman, 21, of Portland, Ore., carry their gun to class, physical training and even have it nearby as they sleep. At night, Dykeman keeps his weapon under his mattress, with the rifle's magazine in his locker. 

“Most likely we're going to Iraq, and when we get there, if you don't handle your weapon during training, you're going to forget,” Dykeman said. “It helps you get closer to your weapon, know the characteristics, know what your rifle can do, so when you're out there in the field, you know how to keep yourself safe.” 

The program is significantly reducing negligent discharges, said Col. Kevin A. Shwedo, director of operations, plans and training for the Army Accessions Command. The average company used to experience about five negligent discharges every four hours. Now, he said, “if you hear a single discharge, that's a lot.” 

Even in the training environment, soldiers are required to keep a round of ammunition in their chambers and clear their guns before entering any building. Metal barrels filled with sand rest slanted on sandbags outside every building for soldiers to clear their weapons. 

“It's a constant practice to teach them these rules and responsibilities,” Fortune said before checking weapons at random in the cafeteria. “We want to teach them that there is no such thing as the front line.” 

In recent years, the only time soldiers at Fort Lee would see their weapons was when they practiced shooting. Commanders say the change reflects the need for soldiers to be ready to engage in the military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. 

And Wetzel, who lost her son, agrees with that logic. 

“I wholly endorse more contact with those weapons under safe circumstances ... to have more exposure to that weapon and more safety training,” Wetzel said, adding that both of her sons had only one week of total weapon training when they entered the Army. “It should be second nature: safety first.” 

It took the Army until early 2005 to “come up with enough horsepower” to implement the program, Shwedo said. Officials ran into road blocks including finding enough weapons, ammunition and supplies, and Cold War-era regulations against putting weapons on training bases, he said. 

“We have got to prepare every soldier for the possibility that they would go immediately in to fight,” Shwedo said. 

The program is part of the Army's new initiative to make training more relevant and apply lessons learned from troops coming back from deployment. 

“We save lives every day that we train soldiers how to properly handle their weapons,” he said. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 On the Net: 

Training and Doctrine Command: www-tradoc.army.mil/ 

Accessions Command: www.usaac.army.mil/


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## Red 6 (29 Aug 2006)

This safety thing in training is nice, but we're not talking rocket science here. The US Army is really big on the school house approach to problem solving. This will not fix what has always been an endemic problem, at least since I've been in the armed forces. The real solution is to enforce the standards and procedures that have been in place since the Roman Army taught its legionaries not to chop on their battle buddies with swords. Units have to have a climate of zero tolerance to safety violations and leaders need to supervise their Soldiers (I use this word because that's the primary group we're discussing, but it could just as easily be airmen, etc.)

Weapons handling accidents occur for a variety of reasons. When people are tired, leaders need to be especially aware of what's going on.


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## Jay4th (29 Aug 2006)

The ever-present rifle and blank ammo allthrough training is one of the best ideas I have ever encountered.  It is even more important in the support trades where one constantly encounters deployed soldiers so afraid of their weapons and of having an ND that they don't load them, or leave the bolt in a pocket.  A trucker I knew in Bosnia 2000  kept his firing pin in the inside velcro pocket of his shirt while driving supply convoys from VK to Zgon.   When that got up higher he was one of many.  The weapon needs to feel like an extension of the soldier's own body.


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## KevinB (29 Aug 2006)

Remember 1VP had an idiot who keep his C9A2 bolt in his barracks box... Mind you he just did not want to kill  : (nice trade choice jackass)

 Some of the EME SEALS's from RotoII in Kabul where found to be going on duty w/o firing pins...


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2006)

Too many of those true stories going around, and they don't all apply to Small Arms.


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## KevinB (29 Aug 2006)

George that is VERY frightening since it requires 2 to affect that issue.


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## Devlin (1 Sep 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Remember 1VP had an idiot who keep his C9A2 bolt in his barracks box... Mind you he just did not want to kill  : (nice trade choice jackass)
> 
> Some of the EME SEALS's from RotoII in Kabul where found to be going on duty w/o firing pins...



Holy flying fork handles batman ...that is just nuts. I mean really give your head a shake. I am just about speechless.


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## TCBF (4 Sep 2006)

Back in 'the day' in Lahr, I recommended that we draw our live ammo once a week and wear it around garrison, just so the office workers would see and feel what a rifle and first line ammo is like.  I was told that it was 'risky'.  So, I said, when do we start the remedial weapons classes?

We don't, they said.

Gotta love the "No Weapons In Building" signs on CF Bases.  What are they afraid of?  Ex-husbands?


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## a_majoor (5 Sep 2006)

The problem has been around for quite a while, Col Hackworth recounts running a training battalion in Ft Lewis Washington during the Viet Nam war and having the trainees carry weapons loaded with blanks throughout their training. (This is recounted in the book "About Face").

It seems we always have to relearn old lessons.


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## orange.paint (5 Sep 2006)

Imagine the "profession of arms" handling their weapons appropriately....
not a hard job.

Remove source of ammo,clear chamber. It works for pretty well all arms.Anyone who kills another troop with a ND should be charged for murder IMHO.


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## KevinB (5 Sep 2006)

How about - Leave weapon ready - dont fuck with it...


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## paracowboy (5 Sep 2006)

exactly. Load weapon. Ready weapon. Put weapon on 'safe'. Follow 4 Rules of Firearm Safety.


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## 043 (5 Sep 2006)

This is what I have done here to the last Ph III Officer Course:

When ever the students cleared their wpns, they immediately recocked the wpn and put it on safe. If it was found on repetition or automatic, they recieved a little bit of a beasting. It goes against everything that is pounded into our heads, however, it did work. There no ND's during the FTX as they were used to ensuring that the weapon was on safe. As well, it took some explaining to the other staff however, it did work.

My 2 Cents


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## KevinB (5 Sep 2006)

2023 -- that is very similar to US drills -- admittedly after 17 years of CF drills I found the US drill somewhat unnerving -- However it was explained to me that it is MUCH better to potentially have a round in the chmaber by accident (read stupidity) with the weapon on SAFE -- rather than the weapon on R/SEMI or AUTO


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Sep 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Back in 'the day' in Lahr, I recommended that we draw our live ammo once a week and wear it around garrison, just so the office workers would see and feel what a rifle and first line ammo is like.  I was told that it was 'risky'.  So, I said, when do we start the remedial weapons classes?
> 
> We don't, they said.
> 
> Gotta love the "No Weapons In Building" signs on CF Bases.  What are they afraid of?  Ex-husbands?



Still I found the Canadian military units in Germany a lot more "with it" than the units back home in regards to weapons. I found it took some time to remove that "peace time army" attitude from myself.


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## TangoTwoBravo (5 Sep 2006)

Perhaps the US guys get NDs in camp because their supervisors want the weapon on SAFE without a round in the chamber and a mag on.  Their drills try to work around the built-in safety features of the weapon.  I found their unload, cock, put mag on drill quite baffling.  I'm not slinging mud at my US counterparts, we have plenty of NDs on our own.  

What I find funny is that you can go out in the rhubarb for two weeks with a readied weapon without any NDs, then once you get back in camp you get NDs.  Go figure.


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## Red 6 (6 Sep 2006)

Good point 2Bravo. It's because guys get sloppy in garrison.


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## orange.paint (8 Sep 2006)

Personal weapons drills are very simple.The problem I see is that these tools are locked away in the QM and taken out only during exercises.And as for live rounds I have not had a round chambered since a range in bosnia in 2003.And I am in the cmbt arms! I can also say my past trip to NFLD I shot more bullets during my time home than I EVER have in the army.7 years punched and I have maybe went to the ranges 4 times.And no I was not squirrled away in some office job I have been in the F esh since joining.

I have also seen some CSS troops afraid of their rifle on gate guard. Constantly clearing it and messing around with it.Make troops comfortable withtheir rifle.A lot of trades are comfortable with computers in garrison which can be a lot more complicated than a few IA drills.

Train the way we fight....I remember being out on ex in meaford blanks chambered doing the fun patrolling stuff,but as soon as you came to the meal line or mess tent someone would be spouting "unload your weapons".Thankfully we had a excellent SGT who told us to leave a round up the chamber and as I said "train the way you fight." Something many snr NCO's and officers should be enforcing.

I've personally never had a ND or knew anyone in my troops who had one.


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## Yeoman (11 Sep 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Remember 1VP had an idiot who keep his C9A2 bolt in his barracks box... Mind you he just did not want to kill  : (nice trade choice jackass)
> 
> Some of the EME SEALS's from RotoII in Kabul where found to be going on duty w/o firing pins...



funny, heard the same thing during roto 0 with somone attached in from 1RCR. thank god he's out now.
we actually just had a discussion on this today; and seriously. it's so simple
'cock weapon'
'pull trigger, and weapon goes boom'
how can you put it any simpiler then that?
there should be like tazers on the weapons during training, so if you have an ND, you get like 200 volts zapped into you. that'll learn you.
Greg


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## GO!!! (16 Sep 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Personal weapons drills are very simple.The problem I see is that these tools are locked away in the QM and taken out only during exercises.And as for live rounds I have not had a round chambered since a range in bosnia in 2003.And I am in the cmbt arms! I can also say my past trip to NFLD I shot more bullets during my time home than I EVER have in the army.*7 years punched and I have maybe went to the ranges 4 times.*And no I was not squirrled away in some office job I have been in the F esh since joining.
> 
> I've personally never had a ND or knew anyone in my troops who had one.



Rarely handling your pers weapon would seem to almost guarantee that NDs will be rare.


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## Red 6 (17 Sep 2006)

Let me ask ya'll a question. Do you run ranges in lock-step? In the US Army, when you go to the range, you get handed your ammo and take it to your firing point, then load on command. Everything is very controlled to reduce the chances of an ND. 

In 2000, my unit deployed to Kuwait for 6 months in support of Operation Southern Watch. I had a sergeant (an experienced Soldier) who had an ND when he tried to clear his rifle in a tent full of sleeping Soldiers. He was tired and failed to follow our local clearing policy and standard Army clearing procedures. I felt bad for this guy, but when my commander asked me for a recommendation, I told him we had to make an example of him. It was a hard lesson, but it would've been horrible if one of my Soldiers got killed.


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## vonGarvin (17 Sep 2006)

Hey there Red 6.
For "ranges" there are many levels, from introductory shoots to collective shooting (live fire attacks, and the like)
For the intro shoots, yes, they are tightly controlled.  You file by, get your ammo, go to the firing point, load and ready on command, fire on command and so forth.  Having said that, regardless of the level of the range, once all is said and done, we unload and then clear weapons on order, and all are checked by a NCO (usually the section commander, or "squad leader" in US terms).

Off topic, speaking of "Squad Leader", check out the link on my profile.  It's my main hobby.

von G out.


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## Red 6 (17 Sep 2006)

Von: Thanks for the intel. I just shot a PM out to you.

Mark


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## GO!!! (18 Sep 2006)

+1 to what Von G said.

At the early stages of trg, weapons and ammo are tightly controlled. 

Once you get to a unit that is training for something (like, oh say,  a deployment to afghanistan) and higher level collective training, personal and platoon weapons are readied at the start of the scenario, and that state is not changed unless there are targets that need engaging or the scenario ends. 

As these ranges get progressively more complex, incorporating indirect fire, heavy weapons, both mounted and dismounted, and various other systems, such as grenades, mines, rockets, demo charges etc, the responsibility is that of the soldier, not the staff, as they cannot watch everyone all the time.

Safety remains a priority while allowing realistic training to take place much of the time, whereas at the school, the mission itself seems to be safety, with realism a distant second.


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