# CANFORGEN 97/08     LDA FAQs



## BigDaddyFatback (4 Mar 2008)

Is anyone in the know about certain units being designated "Field Units", and receiving $200 some odd bucks a month on their pay? Is this happening? If so...when?


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## Gunner98 (4 Mar 2008)

Although it was announced as part of Budget 2007. Nothing has been officially/released published yet - It will appear here: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/allowance/engraph/allow_pol_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=30  It is discussed in other topic thread on the site as "Field Environmental Allowance".

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58972.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/66054.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/63520.0.html


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## PO2FinClk (4 Mar 2008)

Frostnipped Elf beat me to it, 

Except that the latest brief by DCBA said that it was being "renamed to Field Duty Allowance (FDA) as the CDS did not like the initial designation".


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## 211RadOp (5 Mar 2008)

From an O-Group last week, it *MAY* be announced as early as mid-March.


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## PO2FinClk (5 Mar 2008)

This thread should be moved and merged to the proper forum. Just my 2 1/2 cents.


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## LCIS-Tech (3 Apr 2008)

This has now been officially passed on to us in an O gp on 2 Apr 08. Here is what were were told:

1. $238 per month for all mbrs posted to "Field Units". I am pretty sure that if you have the word "Regiment" at the back-end of your Unit's name, then you probably qualify.
2. This will be a taxable  benefit. No surprises there.
3. Field Pay will be retro-active to 1 Apr 07.
4. Back-pay and initial payments to commence Nov 08. (That means about 22 months worth of back-pay, i.e. $2600 @ 50% tax)
5. If you were in the field and recieved Field Pay during the period of  1 Apr 07 and Nov 08, you will have that amount deducted from your back-pay amount.

A nice little chunk of change, just before Christmas!!


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## Franko (3 Apr 2008)

LCIS-Tech said:
			
		

> This has now been officially passed on to us in an O gp on 2 Apr 08. Here is what were were told:
> 
> 1. $238 per month for all mbrs posted to "Field Units". I am pretty sure that if you have the word "Regiment" at the back-end of your Unit's name, then you probably qualify.
> 2. This will be a taxable  benefit. No surprises there.
> ...



Whoever passed it on to you must have missed the part of:



> This has not been approved as of this date.



and it's still pending.

Regards


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## LCIS-Tech (3 Apr 2008)

No, actually, it IS approved, which is why it was passed on to us at an O Gp from our OC, who in turn got it from the Commander at his O Gp on Monday.


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## armyvern (3 Apr 2008)

LCIS,

You got the same general info that I recd from the CO and passed on to my pers yesterday. We had earlier had the DCBA email brief with those figures as well.

Our O Gp point: "has now been approved, it is expected to take a minimum of 10 months to see implementation onto pay." <-- That goes with your "Nov" timeframe for receiving backpay.

They noted that the message was expected to be cut shortly.


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## The_Falcon (3 Apr 2008)

So anyone have any ideas, how this well be implemented for Reserve Field units?


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## dapaterson (3 Apr 2008)

Members of Reserve units will receive Casual Field Duty Allowance (or Casual "Whatever Bureaucratic Name This Thing Gets" Allowance).  Just like Naval Reservists and Air Reservists draw casual allowances when entitled.  There will not be a monthly amount added to pay.  In other words, no change - if you got FOA before, you'll get Casual WBNTTGA now.


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## vonGarvin (3 Apr 2008)

LCIS-Tech said:
			
		

> This has now been officially passed on to us in an O gp on 2 Apr 08. Here is what were were told:
> 
> 1. $238 per month for all mbrs posted to "Field Units".


One point to add.  From what I received from my chain of command, that is the starting rate.  The more time you have in a "Field Unit", the more you will receive.  I forget the amounts, but it gets quite substantial.


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## axeman (4 Apr 2008)

is there a official memo on this ? as a fmr mmeber of the PPCLI id like more info


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## armyvern (4 Apr 2008)

axeman said:
			
		

> is there a official memo on this ? as a fmr mmeber of the PPCLI id like more info



The message has not been cut yet.

Until that time -- nothing is "actually" official and is still subject to _whatever_ change.

I'm quite sure though, that as soon as the message is cut -- you'll see it here.


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## MJP (4 Apr 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> One point to add.  From what I received from my chain of command, that is the starting rate.  The more time you have in a "Field Unit", the more you will receive.  I forget the amounts, but it gets quite substantial.



I wonder why we didn't just piggy back on the sea duty allowance.

Taken from the sea duty Table to CBI 205.35

Less than 5 years $291
5 years or more but less than 9 years $414
9 years or more but less than 12 years $537
12 years or more but less than 15 years $649
15 years or more but less than 18 years $691
18 years or more $733

I think the army/CF does a poor job overall in explaining the rationale behind the decisions that are made especially when it comes to things soldiers hold close to their hearts (like money).  I can think of many shocked individuals wondering why the original PLD rate for Edmonton was so low at $232.  No one explain to the soldiers that it was due to being based on 2005 levels for the calculations.  2005 was right when things were heating up in the economy and hadn't reached the levels we see now.  The newer more in line with the economy rates just came out and soldiers are much happier with the adjustment.  

$232 is less than the starting rate for sea duty.  But are there unseen factors (to the average soldier) that would make it reasonable that sailors get that extra little bit?  Or are all environmental allowances being adjusted to one common rate(s)?  I wish when they make changes like this they would send unit COs a cheatsheet so they could explain the why to their soldiers.  Things usually make sense once they are properly explained.  But it the fact that everyone seems to be floundering to find the answers for their soldiers when a simple FAQ of sorts could be made.


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Apr 2008)

With all the O Groups out on this would that infer that it has passed the Treasury board or is there still the chance that the gov't pull this back in?


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## Nfld Sapper (20 Apr 2008)

Here's a question, with CFSME being designated a field unit (says the grape vine) how would this work out for those of us who go there to support courses but are also on TD?

(points to dapaterson for the answer  ;D)


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Apr 2008)

I don't believe any school is entitled.  Of course I could be wrong.


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## X-mo-1979 (20 Apr 2008)

Funny thing now we have cpl's making much more than some Sgt's!
Anyone got they pay incentives?I did but only focused on mine.


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## Nfld Sapper (20 Apr 2008)

Latest Regular Force NCM Rates (pdf)

And cause I care Latest Reserve Force NCM Rates (pdf)


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Apr 2008)

Please lets keep it on point here.  I love tangents as much as the next guy but for this topic lets keep it to the pertinent questions and answers.


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## TN2IC (20 Apr 2008)

Now what about us Garrison folks that are on BDF? It would be pretty sweet to get FOA while waiting for a phone call.  ;D


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## NCRCrow (20 Apr 2008)

So Navy on BDF could collect Sea Pay and Field Pay...I see nothing!!

You're kidding right?


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## aesop081 (20 Apr 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Funny thing now we have cpl's making much more than some Sgt's!



Hardly anything new......


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## dapaterson (20 Apr 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Here's a question, with CFSME being designated a field unit (says the grape vine) how would this work out for those of us who go there to support courses but are also on TD?
> 
> (points to dapaterson for the answer  ;D)



Did I hear my name?

I _THINK_ an augmentee would receive the casual allowance for days in the field.  For those days, you wouldn't get incidentals.  If attach-posted to a unit entitled, you'd receive the allowance.

However, before you go spending your lucre, wait for the official messages and policies to come out...


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## NCRCrow (20 Apr 2008)

What criteria makes up the definition of a Field Unit?

What about units with a Base Side such as 2 Svc Battalion?

Do they get the Field Pay entitlement?


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Apr 2008)

Cmbt Arms would be field units.  Any one attached to them from logistics would also get it.  If parade with the base you won't be entitled


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## armyvern (20 Apr 2008)

Careful there.

When I was 2 Svc Bn ... I brought more home a year in field pay (every year!!) than my husband The RCR who was serving with the Airborne Regt.

After all -- Svc Bns are in the field for Coy exs, Bn exs, Brigade exs, supporting other Units' exs ...

1st Line field Units are first line _field_ Units; that's not limited necessarily to "Combat Arms" Units. Think 2 Fd Amb etc.


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## George Wallace (20 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Careful there.
> 
> When I was 2 Svc Bn ... I brought more home a year in field pay than my husband The RCR who was serving with the Airborne Regt.
> 
> ...



That was before someone came up with the 'brilliant idea' to do away with the Svc Bn and create the GS Bn and CS Bn; one a Base Lodger Unit and the other a disfunctional orphan.

Neither were really Field Units.

Has the "Wheel" come full circle yet?


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## armyvern (20 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That was before someone came up with the 'brilliant idea' to do away with the Svc Bn and create the GS Bn and CS Bn; one a Base Lodger Unit and the other a disfunctional orphan.
> 
> Neither were really Field Units.
> 
> Has the "Wheel" come full circle yet?



No, it was the same way back then.

There was 2 Svc Bn Base Supply, and 2 Svc Bn Field Supply. Two different UICs. Two different postings. Lovely re-org and new name (and apparently the re-org sucks, but I do hear it's going back to the "old" way - it worked).

One is field -- one is not; neither were "Combat Arms". 

2 Fd Amb is certainly a field Unit, 2 Cdn Fd Hosp etc --- (that's what the "Fd" in their name stands for) ... and they certainly are not "Combat Arms".

First Line Units do not equal "Combat Arms" Units only.


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## George Wallace (20 Apr 2008)

Wouldn't it just be easier if everyone just referred to their ORBATs.  Bde Units, including the Svc Bn, are Field.  Base Units are not.  TAC HEL Units, who don't belong to a Bde, but to the Air Force are in a gray area, but they like the Navy, are already collecting various allowances.

One who doesn't belong to a "Field" Unit, is still going to get Field Pay if deployed into the Field. If not they would get TD.  Sometimes TD greatly outweights Field Pay.  Getting more than one allowance for the same tasking/deployment/exercise is rather rare, is it not?


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2008)

Semi hijack:

Our Fd pay is two tiered, one at about 25 bucks a day, the other at about 46 bucks a day. Depends on how one is living and what rats he is on. Either way, it adds up real fast.

With field time in May and June at Shoalwater Bay, it will be nice for the bonus. TD for the trip up and down. SWB is a shytehole, max isolation, beasts great (crocs)and small (poisonus ticks etc), oh joy!


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## armyvern (20 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it just be easier if everyone just referred to their ORBATs.  Bde Units, including the Svc Bn, are Field.  Base Units are not.  TAC HEL Units, who don't belong to a Bde, but to the Air Force are in a gray area, but they like the Navy, are already collecting various allowances.
> 
> One who doesn't belong to a "Field" Unit, is still going to get Field Pay if deployed into the Field. If not they would get TD.  Sometimes TD greatly outweights Field Pay.  Getting more than one allowance for the same tasking/deployment/exercise is rather rare, is it not?



I'm sure the second paragraphers will fall into the TD or Casual Field pay area.

As for your first --- uggghhh --- going through the ORBAT just happens to be this weeks big task. Thank's for reminding me, and it's not even Monday morning dammit.


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## NCRCrow (20 Apr 2008)

So you saying that it might be broken down to Billet/Position Number within a Unit/ Bde to receive Field Pay Allowance.


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## dapaterson (20 Apr 2008)

No, it will be units designated to receive it, and every position within the unit.  Any other method would be like reviewing every berth on one of HMC Ships, and assessing it individually for Sea Duty Allowance.

I'm not certain what will happen to the schools.

Big hand, small map: Arty, Armd, Engr and Inf units should receive it, along with the Svc Bns, HQ & Sigs Sqn for the CMBGs, and probably the non-Air Crew positions within the Tac Hel Sqns - there may be "double jeopardy" rules to keep aircrew from getting both Air Crew allowance and Land Duty Allowance (the latest name I've heard whispered in the hallowed halls of Ottawa).


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## aesop081 (21 Apr 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> there may be "double jeopardy" rules to keep aircrew from getting both Air Crew allowance and Land Duty Allowance (the latest name I've heard whispered in the hallowed halls of Ottawa).



Why would there be ? CH-124 crews already draw both aircrew allowance and sea duty allowance so why would Tac Hel aircrews not be allowed to draw both aircrew allowance and field ops allowance ? Sounds like a redress served on a silver platter to me.


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## dapaterson (21 Apr 2008)

I stand corrected - my time in CF aircraft is somewhat limited (a trip from St-Hubert to Valcartier in a Chinook, the return trip that was aborted halfway along, and a ride from the airfield across the road in Valcartier).  I know that some allowances preclude each other; I didn't know that aircrew allowances have no such restrictions.


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## NCRCrow (21 Apr 2008)

Sea King Crews get both!

So you are saying that 427 TAC HEL is (will be) a designated "Field Unit" 

If you are hurt for more than 6 months does your Field pay cease?


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## PO2FinClk (21 Apr 2008)

As alluded by Vern and emphasized by dapaterson, this allowance will be administered in line as other enviromental allowances, which has also been explained in other threads.

The key phrasing at this point is that a unit must expect "to be in the field for at least 60 days in a year to receive" this allowance. The quoted portion is from a DPPD email on the subject and those posted to such units would be in receipt of this allowance (FEA, FDA or LDA). Also, as is the case where "units" are not expected to meet this criteria but individuals within the units are, then these positions would be desiganted as such and be in receipt of the allowance. The same methodology is applied to both AIRCRA & SDA (amongst others) where messages are released denoting these positions.

Anybody else not meeting either criteria above would then be subject to Casual Allowances, or FOA, as is the case for any other allowance. If pers posted to schools are expected to be in the field for more then 60 days in the year, then they will get it full time (provided the position was properly staffed and captured by the COC). If not they get the Casual Allowance. If you are incremental at a school, you again get Casual Allowance. As is the case for AIRCRA or SDA, you must be Posted or Att-Posted to the position or unit itself.

Folks, the wheel is not being re-invented here, the same caveats which are currently in place for a myriad of other allowances will also be applied to this one. The only difference here is the environement itself, not how it shall be applied. In order to get the full time allowance, you will have to be "posted into a desginated position". 

The culture of entitlement contest as seen in here serves absolutely no purpose when there is ample direction available which clearly denote this type of administration. These issues are no different then doing a search in these forums, search the pubs. Those who are bent on pursuing the "he gets she gets" issue are invited to familiarize themselves with the following refs:
CBI Chap 205 Section 2 Para's 205.30 to 205.395
DPPD Allowance Policy Messages (Designated Positions): http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/allowance/engraph/allow_pol_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=30


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## vonGarvin (17 May 2008)

For those of you on the DIN:
http://vcds.dwan.dnd.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2008/096-08_e.asp

Enjoy the oncoming rumour mill!  Especially since the facts are right there for all to see!


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## vonGarvin (17 May 2008)

It's announces "Land Duty Allowance" (formerly known as Field Operations Allowance, or whatever.  Not really formerly known as, but more of a replacement?)
It's effective 1 april 07, and the pay should be in early next year.  The details are in the CANFORGEN. I'd post more, but I believe that the CDS doens't like the CANFORGENS out in full view?  I can't remember the exact directive...


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## NL_engineer (17 May 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> For those of you on the DIN:
> http://vcds.dwan.dnd.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2008/096-08_e.asp
> 
> Enjoy the oncoming rumour mill!  Especially since the facts are right there for all to see!



Looks like something to read next week.  Rockpainter, most of us will not be looking at the DIN till Tuesday  ;D


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## PuckChaser (18 May 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Looks like something to read next week.  Rockpainter, most of us will not be looking at the DIN till Tuesday  ;D



For sure! Here's to HM Queen Victoria and her wonderful 3 day weekend!!!!  8)


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## Ex-Dragoon (18 May 2008)

Awesome..long overdue for you guys IMO.


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## Rodahn (18 May 2008)

I agree, about bloody time....


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## vonGarvin (18 May 2008)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> For sure! Here's to HRH Queen Victoria and her wonderful 3 day weekend!!!!  8)


Actually, HM Queen Victoria, no?  Empress of India and all that.  I'll celebrate her day off by....getting dusty on the plain in Wainwright.

 :crybaby:


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## Nfld Sapper (18 May 2008)

Don't get too dusty there Mortarman  ;D

:cheers:


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## vonGarvin (18 May 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Don't get too dusty there Mortarman  ;D
> 
> :cheers:


Feel free to quench my thirst FOR me this weekend, one and all.  Trust me, it could be MUCH WORSE.


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## Nfld Sapper (18 May 2008)

Done and Done their Mortarman, maybe if you are in my neck of the woods we could get together for a few.


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## footslogger (19 May 2008)

Well i'm on the dusty plains of Wainwright and I'm quenching my thirst just fine.   ;D


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## PPCLI Guy (19 May 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Actually, HM Queen Victoria, no?  Empress of India and all that.  I'll celebrate her day off by....getting dusty on the plain in Wainwright.
> 
> :crybaby:



Hot and dusty plains of Suffield here.  Nothing like a long weekend in the field.  Who dreams this stuff up?


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## axeman (19 May 2008)

8)   not sure I'm at home enjoying the 5's in my new trade 321 missing my old one 031 but then again i like the spec pay im getting now .      have a good Victoria Day


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## MJP (19 May 2008)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Hot and dusty plains of Suffield here.  Nothing like a long weekend in the field.  Who dreams this stuff up?



I personally blame the CO......  ;D


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## LCIS-Tech (20 May 2008)

CANFORGEN 096/08 CMP 037/08 161544Z MAY 08
NEW LAND DUTY AND CASUAL LAND DUTY ALLOWANCES
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. CBI 205.39 (FIELD OPERATIONS ALLOWANCE) 
B. CBI 205.33 (LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE) 
C. CBI 205.335 (CASUAL LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE) 



THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO ANNOUNCE THE INTRODUCTION OF A NEW LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE (LDA) AND CASUAL LDA (CLDA) THAT REPLACE THE FIELD OPERATIONS ALLOWANCE (FOA) EFFECTIVE 1 APR 07. 


THE PURPOSE OF LDA AND CLDA IS TO COMPENSATE CF PERSONNEL FOR EXPOSURE TO AUSTERE FIELD ENVIRONMENTAL AND WORK CONDITIONS. 


LDA IS A TAXABLE MONTHLY ALLOWANCE PAYABLE TO CF PERSONNEL WHO ARE POSTED TO A DESIGNATED FIELD UNIT OR POSITION. THE RATE FOR LDA VARIES BETWEEN 291 AND 733 DOLLARS PER MONTH, DEPENDING ON THE LEVEL OF ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE. ELIGIBLE SERVICE INCLUDES ANY PERIOD SINCE ENROLMENT SERVED AT A FIELD UNIT, AS WELL AS ANY PERIOD IN RECEIPT OF LAND DUTY, AIRCREW, SEA DUTY, HARDSHIP, SUB, AND JTF2 ALLOWANCES, AGAIN, FROM TIME OF ENROLMENT. 


CLDA IS A TAXABLE DAILY ALLOWANCE PAYABLE TO PERSONNEL NOT IN RECEIPT OF LDA BUT WHO DEPLOY TO THE FIELD FOR A PERIOD OF NOT LESS THAN 24 HOURS. THE DAILY RATE FOR CLDA IS 24 DOLLARS AND 23 CENTS. 


PAYMENT OF THESE NEW ALLOWANCES, INCLUDING RETROACTIVE ADJUSTMENTS BACK TO 1 APR 07, WILL BE MADE IN THE JAN TO MAR 09 TIMEFRAME. AS AN INTERIM MEASURE, THE CURRENT ALLOWANCE SYSTEM WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT UNTIL THE COMPLEX TRANSITION TO THE NEW ALLOWANCE STRUCTURE IS COMPLETE. 


THE NEW LDA/CLDA COMPENSATION AND BENEFIT INSTRUCTION (CBI) IS AVAILABLE IN SECTION 2 OF CBI CHAP 205 AT WWW.DND.CA/DGCB/CBI. ANSWERS TO FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (FAQ) ARE AVAILABLE AT WWW.DND.CA/DGCB/DPPD. 


A LIST OF UNITS ELIGIBLE FOR LDA EFFECTIVE 1 APR 07 AND FIELD UNITS DESIGNATED AS ELIGIBLE FOR THE CALCULATION OF ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE PRIOR TO APR 07 IS BEING CONSOLIDATED AND WILL BE PUBLISHED SOONEST IN THE ALLOWANCES SECTION OF THE DIRECTOR PAY POLICY DEVELOPMENT (DPPD) WEB SITE: WWW.DND.CA/DGCB/DPPD. 


QUESTIONS REGARDING THE CBI MAY BE DIRECTED TO DPPD 5-2, CPO1 J. MONTPETIT, 613-995-5348. QUESTIONS REGARDING ADMINISTRATION/PROCESSING OF PAYMENTS MAY BE DIRECTED TO DMPAP, PO1 T. MCCARTHY, 613-995-6838. 


SIGNED BY MGEN W. SEMIANIW, CMP


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## Sub_Guy (20 May 2008)

UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CBI 205.325 (CASUAL AIRCREW ALLOWANCE) 
B. CBI 205.335 (CASUAL LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE) 
C. CBI 205.355 (CASUAL SEA DUTY ALLOWANCE) 
D. CBI 205.375 (CASUAL SUBMARINE ALLOWANCE) 
E. CBI 205.32 (AIRCREW ALLOWANCE) 
F. CBI 205.33 (LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE) 
G. CBI 205.35 (SEA DUTY ALLOWANCE) 
H. CBI 205.37 (SUBMARINE ALLOWANCE) 
I. CBI 205.385 (JOINT TASK FORCE 2 ALLOWANCE) 

THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO ANNOUNCE RATE AND POLICY CHANGES FOR CERTAIN ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES EFFECTIVE 1 APR 07. 

THE RATE FOR CASUAL SEA DUTY ALLOWANCE (CSDA) IS INCREASED TO 24 DOLLARS AND 23 CENTS, AND THE RATE FOR CASUAL SUBMARINE ALLOWANCE (CSUBA) TO 27 DOLLARS AND 23 CENTS. 

REFS A-D ARE AMENDED TO ALLOW CF PERSONNEL TO RECEIVE CASUAL AIRCREW ALLOWANCE, CASUAL LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE, CSDA AND CSUBA UP TO THE HIGHEST RATE FOR THEIR RESPECTIVE MONTHLY ALLOWANCES. 

REFS E-I ARE AMENDED TO ALLOW A SYSTEM OF POINTS VERSUS MONTHS TO BE USED TO CALCULATE ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE FOR AIR, LAND, SEA AND SUB ALLOWANCE. IN ADDITION, PERSONNEL EARN ONE POINT FOR EACH MONTH THEY ARE IN RECEIPT OF ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING CORE ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES: 

HARDSHIP ALLOWANCE AT CBI 10.03.05 

AIRCREW ALLOWANCE AT CBI 205.32 

LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE AT CBI 205.33 

SEA DUTY ALLOWANCE AT CBI 205.35 

SUBMARINE ALLOWANCE AT CBI 205.37 AND 

JOINT TASK FORCE ALLOWANCE AT CBI 205.385 

PAYMENT OF THE AMENDED RATES, INCLUDING RETROACTIVE ADJUSTMENTS BACK TO 1 APR 07, WILL BE DELIVERED IN THE JAN TO MAR 09 TIMEFRAME. AS AN INTERIM MEASURE, THE CURRENT ALLOWANCE SYSTEM WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT UNTIL THE COMPLEX TRANSITION TO THE NEW ALLOWANCE STRUCTURE IS COMPLETE. 
THE AMENDED CBIS ARE AVAILABLE AT WWW.DND.CA/DGCB/CBI AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ARE AVAILABLE AT THE DGCB WEB SITE: WWW.DND.CA/DGCB/DPPD. POLICY QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO DPPD 5-2, CPO1 J. MONTPETIT, 613-995-5348. QUESTIONS REGARDING ADMINISTRATION/PROCESSING OF PAYMENTS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO DMPAP, PO1 T. MCCARTHY, 613-995-8638. 
SIGNED BY MGEN W. SEMIANIW, CMP 



From what I have read so far it looks much better than the current system..   Mods I did a search, forgive me if this is covered elsewhere.


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## HItorMiss (20 May 2008)

Does anyone have access to the scale IE:

X yrs of Field = X amount per month???

Anyone picking up what I am putting down here?


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## PO2FinClk (20 May 2008)

As per the CANFORGEN, until "THE NEW ALLOWANCE STRUCTURE IS COMPLETE", the answer to that would be no.

Anything provided would be rumour and/or unsubstantiated facts.

That being said it is possible they will adopt the FSP/OFSP type scale to accredit points to Enviromental Allowances, but that is just a a guess as nothing official has yet been distributed.


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## Sub_Guy (20 May 2008)

Table to CBI 205.33

COLUMN 1  ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE   COLUMN 2  MONTHLY RATE

Less than 60 points                                             291
60 points or more but less than 108 points            414
108 points or more but less than 144 points          537
144 points or more but less than 180 points          649
180 points or more but less than 216 points          691
216 points or more                                             733


Is this what you were looking for?


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## HItorMiss (20 May 2008)

Yup sure was what I was looking for thank you

now to try and calculate my points .....9 years of field time will = 108 points so an allowance of $537


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## Sub_Guy (20 May 2008)

1 point for every month.   10 Casual days in a month = 1 point.


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 May 2008)

So how are they calculating the back pay?  Is it based on the basic amount for all members regardless of TI or will they be calculating your rate as per what would you be getting with the break down.


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## GAP (20 May 2008)

Common Sense says they back up the TI to the start date of calculations and go from there...


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 May 2008)

HAHAH Common sense... That's a good one.


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## PO2FinClk (20 May 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> 1 point for every month.   10 Casual days in a month = 1 point.


That's my guess as well, however after reading the CBI it does not state this. It refers you to CBI 205.015 para's 3 and 4, of which neither detail how you "earn" a point.

I fear that the point "crossover" and retro-activeness is going be a headache on clerks for years to come. Even more so that HA points will also count, which in turn will affect anyone who had deployed overseas since 1 Apr 07/ We can only hope that once they release clarification on these issues it is just that and does not create more confusion as seen in the past.


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## GAP (20 May 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> HAHAH Common sense... That's a good one.



ooops, sorry....my bad


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## Long in the tooth (20 May 2008)

Does RSS time count towards LDA?  What about Reserve (Infantry) time when you transfer?  After 19 years in a battalion and another 5 RSS I'll be right in there like a dirty shirt.... hee hee!  How did the Air Force and Navy actually let the Army get away with this?


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## PO2FinClk (20 May 2008)

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> How did the Air Force and Navy actually let the Army get away with this?


They didn't, points will be interchangeable between all listed environmental allowances.

As for you other questions, I haven't seen anything mentioned directly pertaining to RSS. Everybody will want answers right away but until further clarification is provided it is a presumption game. But the message listing all applicable units is still forthcoming as mentioned within the CANFORGEN.


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## vonGarvin (21 May 2008)

By my reckoning, I'm at 143 points!
One more "point" to the next level!  I rock!


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## dapaterson (21 May 2008)

RSS time will likely not count - I don't think Res units are on the LDA list.  You will get a point for any month in which 10+days of FOA was paid when you were not in an LDA-entitled unit, though.


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## TCBF (21 May 2008)

- The 'Law of Unintended Consequences' is going to rule on this.  How do you post a soldier from a high LDA unit into Wainwright?  "I can't go - financial distress!"  What about the pers who cannot/will not do field time yet cannot now be posted from their units because the loss of LDA will elevate their current stress levels?  Where is the incentive to go to the field when the Sick Parade Sqn gets the same allowance?

- We should be rewarding attendance on field exercises, not rewarding attrendance in a unit that occaisionally deploys to the field.

- I bet the deep, deep roots to this started when pregnant members who could not ruck-up and deploy complained that it was "Not FAIR!" that soldiers who actually went to the field got more money than those who stayed in garrison.

- Watch the fun start, now.


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## scoutfinch (21 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - The 'Law of Unintended Consequences' is going to rule on this.  How do you post a soldier from a high LDA unit into Wainwright?  "I can't go - financial distress!"  What about the pers who cannot/will not do field time yet cannot now be posted from their units because the loss of LDA will elevate their current stress levels?  Where is the incentive to go to the field when the Sick Parade Sqn gets the same allowance?
> 
> - We should be rewarding attendance on field exercises, not rewarding attrendance in a unit that occaisionally deploys to the field.
> 
> ...



You cannot seriously be blaming this on women??? Give me a break.


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## PO2FinClk (21 May 2008)

TCBF, I do not see your concerns surrounding LDA to be any different then the Navy with SDA. You want the allowance you must be posted to a unit which goes to sea, or that goes to the field.

BTW: there is no such thing as a "High LDA Unit", either a unit is designated to receive or its not. The level is based on every individuals service and not the location, thus this is not comparable to PLD.


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## PMedMoe (21 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - I bet the deep, deep roots to this started when pregnant unfit members who could not ruck-up and deploy complained that it was "Not FAIR!" that soldiers who actually went to the field got more money than those who stayed in garrison.



Maybe you shouldn't be so "gender specific" with your speculations.


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## HItorMiss (21 May 2008)

I'm pretty sure LDA came about for a lot more reasons then the above one given :

Like oh say the fact the the old FOA was not close to scale in terms of what was given to the work field operations require. Or that many ARMY members complained about the SDA and Air crew pay vice our FOA and the way in which it was administrated.


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## TCBF (21 May 2008)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> You cannot seriously be blaming this on women??? Give me a break.



- You are right - here is a break: I should have written "unfit field" instead of pregnant.  Which includes the men on parental leave as well.


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## Sub_Guy (21 May 2008)

SDA and Air Crew Pay should only be paid out when sailing or flying just like the old FOA was handed out   >!   Why does someone who is on course for 5 months get Sea Pay?   Wasted cash!


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## Long in the tooth (22 May 2008)

I've seen pilots fly a desk for 4 years and get air crew.  When the Huron was in for refit the senior 5 members continued to receive SDA for 2 full years while in dry dock.

If infanteers do not get LDA when posted RSS why go?  That's a pretty obvious conundrum.

The disconnects are so serious that a bad problem is just being made worse.  I guess I'll find out, posted back to a field unit after 4 years air force HQ (that'll teach me).


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## armyvern (22 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - You are right - here is a break: I should have written "unfit field" instead of pregnant.  Which includes the men on parental leave as well.



Add these next two groups on too ---

"Unfit field women" and "unfit field men" who are on neither maternity leave nor parental leave.

This allowance had SFA to do with pregnant women or men on parental leave, and the Army's been complaining about their "old" field pay when compared with air crew allowance, sea pay etc, since long before men could take parental leave and women got a full year maternity leave.

As a matter of fact, the Army was bitching about it way back when women were released from the Forces when they became pregnant and field pay for them was irrelevant as women didn't serve there. 

I'm really hoping that your first post wasn't meant in the serious way that those of us who'd obviously have issues with your statement are taking it.


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## George Wallace (22 May 2008)

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> I've seen pilots fly a desk for 4 years and get air crew.  When the Huron was in for refit the senior 5 members continued to receive SDA for 2 full years while in dry dock.
> 
> If infanteers do not get LDA when posted RSS why go?  That's a pretty obvious conundrum.
> 
> The disconnects are so serious that a bad problem is just being made worse.  I guess I'll find out, posted back to a field unit after 4 years air force HQ (that'll teach me).



I guess the old saying "Two Wrongs don't make a Right" should suffice, unless you want to condone embezzlement?  I am sure somewhere down the line, someone is going to look at these cases and recoup the monies.

A Reservist I work with just got dinged with having to pay back $2000+ in overpayments from his Tour two years ago.  Other Reservists all seem to face the same fate on return from Afghanistan.  Another case I know of, a Reservist was overpaid $8000 and had that recouped from his Class A pay.  

Some advice for all Reservists on Tour:  The Pay System is Fuched and will screw you out of a min of one months pay in the end due to them not being able to properly program it to cut off your pay at the proper time.  While you are Disembarkation Lve, control your urges to spend your pay, as without fail the system has overpaid you.  It may take them some time, but some number cruncher will find that you owe them money back, and then Murphy's Law will come into effect, and you'll be dinged with paying back a large sum of money at the most inopportune time.


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## dapaterson (22 May 2008)

George:

Make sure the member documents what happened and reports it via their chain of command - who then need to push it higher for resolution for future members.  Right now certain folks in high levels state openly that "there are no problems".  Actual cases, with supporting documentation, need to be pushed up to oblige certain folks (no names) to do their jobs.


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## George Wallace (22 May 2008)

Problem lies in the fact that often the members are not receiving Pay Statements while on Class C and in theatre, nor on return.  When the System says that the "Member is responsible to monitor and keep track of his/her pay", it drops the ball by not providing them with the resources to do just that.  Often it is a complete surprise to the member, sometimes years later, when the claw back occurs.  

Many of these members have no means to pass on to "Higher"; outside of their own small sphere of influence and OR staff.  What recourse is there for Unit CO's to take with these complaints?  There is a serious disconnect at that level.


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## dapaterson (22 May 2008)

George:  unit COs are paid the big bucks for, among other reasons, their responsbility to attend to their soldiers.  Units COs have to press it to their superiors - that this treatment of their soldiers is unacceptable.  They need to have their Adjt push the G1 staff above the unit.

They need to be - what's that words again - Leaders?


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 May 2008)

Are Reservists able to have there pay statements emailed to them like the regs?


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## dapaterson (22 May 2008)

LWQ: Reservists on class C service (read on tour) are paid by the Reg F system and could have their statements emailed - if they were told it was possible.  In the normal class A and class B Reserve world, pay statements are not automatically emailed.  The unit pay clerk can produce electronic statements (PDFs), then mail them individually to each member.  But it's not automated.

As well, in transitioning from A/B to C, and then back again, the member is essentially released from one system then enrolled into the other (and the reverse on switching back).  Do you think that two releases and two enrollments have the potential to screw up someone's pay?  Oh, and if one pay account or the other isn't perfectly zeroed out, they can't be paid in the other system - I know of one person who wasn't paid class C for several months in theatre - because on his class A pay account the government owed him $0.02.

In addition, the systems were not well designed to consider the possibility of shorter periods of service; a message went out recently announcing that CCPS (Reg F system) had screwed up tax relief for a number of members who deployed on TAVs that were split between two months, but never more than a whole calendar month.  Other have received retro pay for periods in theatre - and been fully taxed on it.

The list could fill volumes; the problems are known; and staff who should be addressing it are instead doing make-work projects of little or no value.  So, if it is to be addressed, the Chain of Command needs to push the problems to their next level - and so on up the chain - to force action.


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 May 2008)

Roger that.


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## George Wallace (23 May 2008)

It seems that the more I discuss with people the problem, another comes up.  Just talked to a Capt, who worked for a General, who had some heartless Fin Clerk/RMS Clerk claw back a couple months pay, and not pay her for that period.  She had to take her case to the CF Ombudsman to get resolution.  

This calls for a separate topic, both to warn and provide solutions or methods of resolution to Reservists who cease Class C, do a TAV, or are on Class C due to injury (yet another cause for grief).


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 May 2008)

Is there not a model used by some other big corporation that employs both full and part time members that can be applied to the present situation?


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## Patrolman (25 May 2008)

Does anyone know what the required time in a field unit is to be eligible for the max payment.?I have heard eight years.


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## aesop081 (25 May 2008)

Patrolman said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what the required time in a field unit is to be eligible for the max payment.?I have heard eight years.



Read this...scroll down to CBI 205.33

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/pdf/CBI_205_Sec_2.pdf


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## Patrolman (25 May 2008)

Thanks!


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## TCBF (26 May 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Is there not a model used by some other big corporation that employs both full and part time members that can be applied to the present situation?



- In 1973 I worked for a paper mill.  They calculated our pay without computers.  Three shifts (days, 4 to 12, graveyard) got paid shift differential, different trades and dpartments got different pay, overtime was calculated based on several factors and could happen as you were about to go home and your relief did not show up, plus; your steel toed boots could be paid for out of your pay (an allotment).

- 600 guys in the mill, maybe three in the pay office, punch card in and out, and they almost always got it right to the penny - without computers.

- Know why?  They HAD to.  Pay screw ups bad, and the union pulls the pin - that simple. 

- Why can't we do that?  Because we don't HAVE to.  No retribution for failure.


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## armyvern (26 May 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - In 1973 I worked for a paper mill.  They calculated our pay without computers.  Three shifts (days, 4 to 12, graveyard) got paid shift differential, different trades and dpartments got different pay, overtime was calculated based on several factors and could happen as you were about to go home and your relief did not show up, plus; your steel toed boots could be paid for out of your pay (an allotment).
> 
> - 600 guys in the mill, maybe three in the pay office, punch card in and out, and they almost always got it right to the penny - without computers.
> 
> ...



How true that is. When people are actually held accoutable for THEIR mistakes they make when paying people, rather than the CF ideal of holding the paid member accoutable (and his/her family financial sit thus suffering for it) for the pay clerk's mistakes. In our world, there are ways to deal with incompetancy -- but them seem to very very laxly enforced or dealt with given that some pay errors are simply inexcuseable when a member is going a couple months without pay. That would never be tolerated out in the real world and someone would find their ass fired very quickly ... we're lucky to even get a simple "ooops, sorry I screwed up", let alone a charge or some extra duties applied which would go a long way to ensuring the clerk didn't make the same mistake again (often repeatedly).

(DND employees do get the paid for the costs of their steel-toes boots if their job requires them to wear them. <-- totally moot to the subject point, but I just thought I'd throw it in there after seeing you mention boots up top.)


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## PiperDown (5 Jun 2008)

I hold in my hot little hand.  

Unclas DPPD 001, 031155z Jun 08 

Land duty allowance - original units designation.

sorry, I dont have an electronic copy of this message.. but its out, and your orderly room will have a copy.

all that concerns me is that CFJSR Kingston is on the list  ;D


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## PO2FinClk (5 Jun 2008)

The message will eventually show up at the folllowing DIN link: http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/dppd/allowance/engraph/allow_pol_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=30


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## vonGarvin (5 Jun 2008)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> I hold in my hot little hand.
> 
> Unclas DPPD 001, 031155z Jun 08
> 
> ...


Well, start typing it out!  We can't wait!  ;D


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## PiperDown (5 Jun 2008)

k

here it goes....  there are a few surprises in here.. (dont shoot the messenger )

REF A: CBI 205.33

1. Based on submissions from ECS/Commands and IAW with the definition of field units at Ref A, The following units are designated as Field Units for the purpose of LDA effective 1 Apr 07.

1 HQ and Sigs - Edmonton
2 HQ and Sigs - Petawawa
5 HQ and Sigs - Valcartier
5 RALC Valcartier
RCD Petawawa
1RCHA Shilo
2 RCHA Petawawa
2 CER Petawawa
4 Engineer support - Gagetown
5 CER - Valcariter
1 RCR - Petawawa
2 RCR - Gagetown
1 PPCLI - Edmonton
2 PPCLI - Shilo
1 R 22e - Valcartier
2 R 22e - Valcartier
2 service battalion - Petawawa
2 Field Amb - Petawawa
5 Field Amb - Valcartier
5 Service Battalion- Valcartier
1 Field Hosp - Petawawa
1 MP Platoon - Edmonton
2 MP Platoon - Petawawa
5 MP Platoon - Valcartier
CDI (JTFx only)
408 Tac Hel - Edmonton
427 SOA sqn - Petawawa (except for pers receiving JTF2 allowance level 2 and 3)
430 Tal Hel - Valcartier
CFJSR - Kingston
4 AD - Gagetown
1 construction TP, 4 Engineer Sup - Edmonton
2 construction TP, 4 Engineer Sup - Petawawa
5 construction TP, 4 Engineer Sup -valcartier
4 construction TP, 4 Engineer Sup - Gagetown
4 AD, RCA - Moncton
4AD - Cold Lake
1 Service Battalion - Edmonton
LdSH - Edmonton
3 PPCLI - Edmonton
3 R 22e - Valcartier
3 RCR - Petawawa
1 CER - Edmonton
1 Feild Amb - Edmonton
1 GS - edmonton
2 GS - Petawawa
5 GS - Valcartier
2 EW - Kingston
CJIRU - trenton
12e Regiment Blinde - Valcartier
5 service Battalion - montreal
2 MP - London
2 MP - Ottawa
SOFCOM - (except for pers in receipt of JTF2 allowance CAT 2 and 3 and HQ Pers)
CSOR - Petawawa
1 MP - Edmonton
1 MP - Toronto
1 MP - Halifax
1MP - MOntreal
1MP - Calgary
1MP - Chilliwack
1MP Shilo
1MP Suffield
1MP - Wainwright
2MP - Petawawa
2MP - Kingston
1MP - winnipeg
2MP - Sault Ste Marie
3MP - Gagetown
3MP - Moncton
5MP - Valcartier
5MP - St Jean
1MP - Vancouver
5MP - Quebec
2MP - Meaford
5MP - Saguenay

(the units are in order of UIC, which I didn't bother to type. Also, I didn't bother to type the long version of the unit name)
Also note, some of these units no longer exist. But members posted to the unit from April 1st 2007 to amalgamation will receive allowance)





Cheers,


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## X-mo-1979 (5 Jun 2008)

So the combat arm's school's in Gagetown are not getting it as originally thought I guess.
And yet again Gagetown shows another reason why it was a waste of 3 years of my life. ;D


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## armyvern (5 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> So the combat arm's school's in Gagetown are not getting it as originally thought I guess.
> And yet again Gagetown shows another reason why it was a waste of 3 years of my life. ;D



Yeah, I can just imagine that this will go far towards increasing the rush of pers with that combat experience volunteering to instruct there (or even reporting there for duty if just flat-out posted there). Not. 

 :


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## X-mo-1979 (5 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yeah, I can just imagine that this will go far towards increasing the rush of pers with that combat experience volunteering to instruct there (or even reporting there for duty if just flat-out posted there). Not.
> 
> :



Excellent point,I hadnt thought of it that way (due to the fact I know I'm safe for a while!)So add to the fact that you can't deploy anymore,or do your job anymore,you also loose a bucket load of money going to instruct.


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## Scoobie Newbie (5 Jun 2008)

I thought the members in the schools in Gagetown where in the field ALL the time.


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## armyvern (5 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Excellent point,I hadnt thought of it that way (due to the fact I know I'm safe for a while!)So add to the fact that you can't deploy anymore,or do your job anymore,you also loose a bucket load of money going to instruct.... and still spend lots of time in the field too ...  :



Edited to ensure accuracy.  >

Everyone knows that Army Courses ... don't go in the field I guess, nor apparently do their instructors. 

Can I shut down the busiest POL section in the CF now - who needs it anymore ??


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## armyvern (5 Jun 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> I thought the members in the schools in Gagetown where in the field ALL the time.



Well, I used to see mine sometimes ...

But, you've got it pretty much bang on.


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## Harris (5 Jun 2008)

So I assume Reg Force pers posted to Reserve Units will not be entitled either?


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## X-mo-1979 (5 Jun 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> I thought the members in the schools in Gagetown where in the field ALL the time.



Not all the time.We did come back in to sign course reports and take over the next course going out. 

And Vern is right,I spent more time in the field in Gagetown that I would in Petawawa (not during this work up training from hell) normally.

I guess it depends if the unit OC's go to the field I guess. ;D

Oh well,I'm not in Gagetown anymore.



			
				Harris said:
			
		

> So I assume Reg Force pers posted to Reserve Units will not be entitled either?



Nope nada penny.Where some guy's get sent to have a break...end's up being a break in the bank account.


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## aesop081 (5 Jun 2008)

Harris said:
			
		

> So I assume Reg Force pers posted to Reserve Units will not be entitled either?



That would make sense since the entitelment for the land duty allowance is tied to the unit you are posted to. Reserve units are not entitled to land duty allowance therefore its members, RegF or ResF are not entitled to it.


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## PiperDown (5 Jun 2008)

I may be way out of my line here, but the big surprise for me is all the MP units getting field pay..


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## footslogger (5 Jun 2008)

Yeah, I can see some of the instructors here at the school in Wx being a little upset at this turn of events.  There was some speculation that we were going to recieve this new allowance.  Oh well, posted back to Battalion next month anyways.  Can't see this being a very good way to attract people to want to come here, no PLD, no field allowance, can't get leave in the summer, worked like dogs, could go on and on....


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## armyvern (5 Jun 2008)

silver said:
			
		

> Just a question: Doesn't it say in the instruction that any month with 10+ casual days counts for a point right?
> 
> So.. it's not a TOTAL 100% COMPLETE waste (just 95%) being in a place like Gagtown at the schools, you'll still get points for being out on those CAP, DP, etc etc courses.....you just won't get the allowance paid automatically each and every month like other people, right?
> 
> ...



No, you're correct in that the instructors would collect casual and accumulate 1 point for a month with 10+ (which essentially means they'll get the casual rate +1 point every month. 

Meanwhile ... some of the Units below (say one of those MP PLs) will collect their points and the full field pay every month ... whilst serving not a day in the field that month.

I guess that's the kick in the teeth you knew had to happen to someone (as it occurs with every new policy) -- this time it's CTC, CFSME, and LFAA (TC) getting 'er square in the gonads again ... BOHICA


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## blacktriangle (5 Jun 2008)

Wow they shafted the schools. No incentive to get a PLQ here!


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## X-mo-1979 (6 Jun 2008)

Whats the difference.The D/S need drivers admin Nco's,en force


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## MJP (6 Jun 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Wow they shafted the schools. No incentive to get a PLQ here!



Meh 6 of one and half a dozen of another.  I really feel for the instructors that do go to the field incredible amounts of the time and hopefully with the 10 days+ thingy they won't be getting left behind their peers in Bn.  That said there are tons and tons of people at all TCs that never see the field except for extremely busy times when they are pressed into service for short periods of time.  

Some of you see it as a detriment for people wanting to be posted to schools.  Where I see it as incentive for some long time school clingers to get back into the game and let some other guys have a break from operations for a few years.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Jun 2008)

If the criteria is the unit or individual should be expected to be in the field for 60 days in a year (which I thought was one of the criteria) I don't see how staff at the schools wouldn't qualify.  I have no idea how the MP's operate so I won't comment on their field expectations.


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## PO2FinClk (6 Jun 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> If the criteria is the unit or individual should be expected to be in the field for 60 days in a year (which I thought was one of the criteria)


That is correct, CO's reported back these expected amounts of time to be spent the field annually. So if a unit did not report back accurately, then they can now see themselves being left out.


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## vonGarvin (6 Jun 2008)

In my time at the Armour School (for three years), on average, I spent more time in the field in any of the given three years than I have spent in the past year: and I'm in a unit on the road to high readiness.  
Here I've spent roughly 2.5 months in the field since last August.  In the year prior to that, at the school, where I was in STANDARDS (not even one of the "lucky" ones who did course after course) I would easily spend over 2.5 months out of 12 in the sticks.

But here's the catcher.  As staff, you rotate in and out of the field.  So, you head out at 6 am on day 1, return at 6 am on day 2, go back out at 6 am on day 3 and so forth.  No FOA entitlement, even though you are virtually in the field for the entire time.  You see, you get back home at around 8 am (no sleep from the day "in the field", doing assessments, paperwork, etc), get home.  Get a nap.  Get up.  Go to sleep.  Up at 4 am, etc ad nauseum.

All this to spare the school the field pay because it came from their budget.  In the end, who gets it?  The individual.

And another thing: some people would spend so much time in the field, they looked forward to going to "field" units to get a stable home life!  Especially the drivers at the Armour School.  Heck, we'd have a parade, I'd see some Cpls, think that they were candidates, only to be told "No, they've been here for three years now...".  Wow, just wow.


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## X-mo-1979 (6 Jun 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> In my time at the Armour School (for three years), on average, I spent more time in the field in any of the given three years than I have spent in the past year: and I'm in a unit on the road to high readiness.
> Here I've spent roughly 2.5 months in the field since last August.  In the year prior to that, at the school, where I was in STANDARDS (not even one of the "lucky" ones who did course after course) I would easily spend over 2.5 months out of 12 in the sticks.
> 
> But here's the catcher.  As staff, you rotate in and out of the field.  So, you head out at 6 am on day 1, return at 6 am on day 2, go back out at 6 am on day 3 and so forth.  No FOA entitlement, even though you are virtually in the field for the entire time.  You see, you get back home at around 8 am (no sleep from the day "in the field", doing assessments, paperwork, etc), get home.  Get a nap.  Get up.  Go to sleep.  Up at 4 am, etc ad nauseum.
> ...



How many times did we wake up and be heading out the gateway at 5h00?
When they posted me there they told me how great it was, cause you got a schedule for the full year and you could plan with your family!Honey I may be home for a week in june!(until some useless idoit couldnt go to the field...again.)


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## PiperDown (6 Jun 2008)

The designation on who gets "Field unit" status and who doesn't came from recommendations from unit COs.

Obviously someone was looking out for the interests of the MP units, and conversely no-one was looking out for the interests of some of our training establishments.
I do know that some combat arm schools have instructors with more time in field than field units... but, someone in that system decided that because instructors don't always sleep in the field (I know, the 2 hour break to go back to garrison every other day is not much of a break) they don't require field unit designation.

Hopefully as time goes on, some of these units will revisit their decision.

Cheers,


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## armyvern (6 Jun 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> Some of you see it as a detriment for people wanting to be posted to schools.  Where I see it as incentive for some long time school clingers to get back into the game and let some other guys have a break from operations for a few years.



Nice thought -- although I tend to disagree with the thought that "clingers" are keeping some of those guys who need breaks out of the _not-so-highly-coveted _ instructor positions within the schools.

After all, the line-up isn't that long - if it even_ really _ exists - for those in the Bns to give up their PLD, Field Pay, and 'other-than-New Brunswick' lower provincial tax rates and the opportunity to earn all that tax-free cash now being garnered on deployments. Especially so if they're currently situated in that big booming town of Edmonton and would have to see their wife come here to low economy and decreased employment opportunities.

Although clingers do exist, I'd be quite willing to lay my hard earned cash on it being more a matter of those combat troops refusing to come to this location, not the other way around.


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## MJP (6 Jun 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Nice thought -- although I tend to disagree with the thought that "clingers" are keeping some of those guys who need breaks out of the _not-so-highly-coveted _ instructor positions within the schools.
> 
> After all, the line-up isn't that long - if it even_ really _ exists - for those in the Bns to give up their PLD, Field Pay, and 'other-than-New Brunswick' lower provincial tax rates and the opportunity to earn all that tax-free cash now being garnered on deployments. Especially so if they're currently situated in that big booming town of Edmonton and would have to see their wife come here to low economy and decreased employment opportunities.
> 
> Although clingers do exist, I'd be quite willing to lay my hard earned cash on it being more a matter of those combat troops refusing to come to this location, not the other way around.



LOL I never said there was a line-up.......geez that would imply that people consider it a good go  

I realize your talking about one location and I'm basing my observations on the 3 TCs I'm familar with and applying it to all but looking at our postings in/out list on our M drive I only see two cancellations of postings out (of NCOs/officers that would be instructors) and one of the guys is overseas right now.  However I see 4 confirmed cancellations of postings from instructors not wanting to leave various TCs.  One I know for sure doesn't want to leave becasue he has a nice side business on the go.  Coming to Bn would ruin his precious business plan.  There is always two sides of the coin, I know personally I don't want to go to a school but was willing to go after TF3-09 to have a break.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (6 Jun 2008)

Ok I can see your point about not physically staying out in the field for the instructors as technically they didn't spend the minimum required amount.  What about those staff tasked to drive candidates around or demo platoon or enemy force that do stay in the field for the duration.  Do they need to apply individually now?


----------



## X-mo-1979 (6 Jun 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> Some of you see it as a detriment for people wanting to be posted to schools.  Where I see it as incentive for some long time school clingers to get back into the game and let some other guys have a break from operations for a few years.



Why would it?The school tool's are use to living off their pay,as they have been in NB since J-7 was built.The guy's there will not get use to an extra 700 dollars a month,as a sgt getting posted to the school will be losing money.


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## armyvern (6 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Why would it?The *school tool's* are use to living off their pay,as *they have been in NB since J-7 was built*.The guy's there will not get use to an extra 700 dollars a month,as a sgt getting posted to the school will be losing money.



Bullshit.

And, bullshit like that is 1/2 the Army's problems these days.


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## X-mo-1979 (6 Jun 2008)

Ican give you at least 20 names that have been in Gagetown longer than I have been in the army.I have been in the smoking area of J-7 and have listened to the stories of "remember when we use to cut through the bog that was here...etc etc."

Before you call B/S (from someone who worked there) take a walk over and have a chat with the many people who have signed "no career progression papers to remain in gagetown".

(after reading it again do you mean what they are doing is B/S or what I'm saying?)


----------



## armyvern (6 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Ican give you at least 20 names that have been in Gagetown longer than I have been in the army.I have been in the smoking area of J-7 and have listened to the stories of "remember when we use to cut through the bog that was here...etc etc."
> 
> Before you call B/S (from someone who worked there) take a walk over and have a chat with the many people who have signed "no career progression papers to remain in gagetown".
> 
> (after reading it again do you mean what they are doing is B/S or what I'm saying?)



I know lots of guys that have spent their entire careers here in Gagetown, and they could indeed stand behind J7 telling war stories about cutting through the bogs (and when around here isn't one cutting through bogs?) ... at 2 RCR, the Inf School, back to 2RCR, up to LFAA TC, back to 2 RCR ... etc. It's not as if they're stagnant and not being posted. Being with The RCR though (or 4ESR, or 119AD etc) -- that's pretty much bound to happen yes, especially so if their parent is 2nd Bn The RCR.

There ARE some of them though too ... most of whom are PCats and can't deploy overseas -- do you really want them taking up positions in your first line field Unit causing more more work you with less fit staff? Then again ... there's probably some of those at your current location - this rare breed can usually be found manning various range control positions etc.

It's BS that this "myth" is held to the schools ... when it happens EVERYWHERE.

I know a "no career progression" type in Pet too. So?


----------



## X-mo-1979 (6 Jun 2008)

Your right.I make this stuff up.
Were all not able to go to 2RCR however due to trade qualifications etc.

Now that I think of it I was totally lying just for the fun of it.


----------



## armyvern (6 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Your right.I make this stuff up.
> Were all not able to go to 2RCR however due to trade qualifications etc.
> 
> Now that I think of it I was totally lying just for the fun of it.



Don't be such an ass.

I didn't call *you  * a liar. I'm sure you'll get over it.

I said that it was BS that this the myth saw this ONLY occuring at the schools. That's bullshit (ie these myths about all these things that happen at the school etc that never occur anywhere else -- like posting refusals/PCats/career long in single location). It happens everywhere.


----------



## Jammer (6 Jun 2008)

....come on out to Pet....it happens here...Kingston....Ottawa....Edmonton....you get the point.


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## armyvern (6 Jun 2008)

Jammer said:
			
		

> ....come on out to Pet....it happens here...Kingston....Ottawa....Edmonton....you get the point.



Seems that you're repeating me now ...


----------



## aesop081 (6 Jun 2008)

Moving on.......

Milnet.ca staff


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## aesop081 (6 Jun 2008)

Now, in order to receive my aircrew allowance, i have to be fit to fly , maintain my aircrew category and fly a prescribed minimum number of hours per quarter. If i am unable to fly for 3 months in a row or fail to maintain any of the previously mentioned conditions, my aircrew allowance is discontinued. I wonder if there will be some kind of similar conditions placed on the land duty allowance.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (6 Jun 2008)

Hope so.  There are many positions in my BN held by 031's that would rarely go into the field let alone for 60 days.


----------



## 421 EME (8 Jun 2008)

Why is the MP Pl in Gagetown is get it????? I have never seen a MP from that Pl in the training area, and yet they made the LDA list.


----------



## rifleman (8 Jun 2008)

They should have just given a blanket raise instead. Just another item to consider when being posted.

As for going to the school for a break....  . Is there a school, I don't know about. I'd like to go there


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## X-mo-1979 (8 Jun 2008)

rifleman said:
			
		

> They should have just given a blanket raise instead. Just another item to consider when being posted.
> 
> As for going to the school for a break....  . Is there a school, I don't know about. I'd like to go there



Usually your not getting shot at in Gagetown...Geary maybe...


----------



## luck881 (9 Jun 2008)

Does CFJSR include 1CDHSR and 1CSR???


----------



## PO2FinClk (11 Jun 2008)

Luck881 said:
			
		

> Does CFJSR include 1CDHSR and 1CSR???


Are they the same UIC?


----------



## luck881 (11 Jun 2008)

1CDHSR was a different UIC, don't know about 1CSR though.  Some people will want to know about 79 Comm Regt too.  1CDHSR and 79 Comm were the two units that amalgamated into CFJSR.  This could mean a big difference in points for hundereds of guys.


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Jun 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> If the criteria is the unit or individual should be expected to be in the field for 60 days in a year (which I thought was one of the criteria) I don't see how staff at the schools wouldn't qualify.  I have no idea how the MP's operate so I won't comment on their field expectations.



I was with 1 MP PL in the early 90's.  I cannot say how it is today, but in my time we were in Wainwright every month.  Maybe only for a day or two or for the whole month, but we were there pretty well every damn month of the year on Ex or some other reason.  And this was time spent in the training area, I can only remember once that we were in the Quonset Huts.  So, hitting the 60 day mark should be very easy for a MP PL to achieve.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (11 Jun 2008)

That would be an average of 5 days a month every month.  I have seen the MP's attached to the BN out on ex but the last time that happened was about 2005.  Other then that the last time I saw them was the G 8 summit.


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Jun 2008)

Things have slowed down then by what you are saying.  That would be good for those who are there.  We kept a busy schedule in my time and were usually on the go.  That was 16-18 years ago.  Many divorces and marital problems in the unit back then.  But I am sure that there were many other units who were busy like that too back then.


----------



## PhilB (16 Jun 2008)

hey hows it going, just a couple quick questions for those in the know. I understand the reserve units are not authorized to get this allowance, and rightfully so, we are not in the field that much. What about when a reservist is tasked to a field unit for the purposes of workup training? We were on work up for 11months for 1-08 attached to 3VP the whole time? Just wondering how that works. Also, is this allowance retained while overseas? I see this as a good way to kill two birds with one stone. It seems that a lot of the on the field unit list are also the same ones tht are based outside of KAF for their whole tour. If they retained their field allowance while overseas it would be a good way of compensating those living in field conditions for their tour.


----------



## PO2FinClk (16 Jun 2008)

PhilB said:
			
		

> What about when a reservist is tasked to a field unit for the purposes of workup training? We were on work up for 11months for 1-08 attached to 3VP the whole time?



As clearly stated in this very thread and others, as well as the CANFORGEN released to this effect, a Casual Allowance would instead be granted.

Your overseas questions have also been answered in this thread and others, also take the time to read the references and you will answer all your own questions.

Read and use the Search!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (12 Sep 2008)

This one hasn't been updated for awhile, and I am on duty and bored so...

From CBI Chapter 205 - Section 2 - Environmental Allowances, Art 205.33 - Land Duty Allowance (LDA):

*205.33 – LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE (LDA)*

*205.33(1) (Definition)* The definitions in this paragraph apply to this instruction.

“accumulated eligible service” means any period during which a member was posted to a field unit or serving in a position designated by the Minister for the purpose of this instruction to the standard established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff. In addition, periods of service prior to 1 April 2007 with a field unit will also count toward eligible service calculation when determining level of Land Duty Allowance. 

“field unit” means a unit, whose primary role is combat manoeuvre and training for operations or combat support and combat service support to the combat manoeuvre units. Canadian Forces personnel in these units can expect, as part of their normal duties, to be exposed to austere environmental and work conditions for extensive periods of time on a regular basis. These units will be equipped with field equipment, vehicles and stores for this role.

“posted” means posted to, attach posted to, called out or serving on full-time service.

*205.33(2) (Eligibility)* A member of the Regular Force or the Reserve Force on Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service posted to a field unit or any such unit designated by the Minister, or serving in a position designated by the Minister for the purpose of this instruction, is entitled to Land Duty Allowance at the monthly rate set out in the Table to this instruction for the member’s accumulated eligible service, unless the member is in receipt of category 2 or 3 allowance under CBI 205.385 (Joint Task Force 2 Allowance).

*205.33(3) (Limitation)* A member who is paid an allowance under CBI 10.3.05 (Hardship Allowance) or CBI 10.3.07 (Risk Allowance) is not entitled to be paid Land Duty Allowance under this instruction unless the member occupies a position designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff in accordance with CBI 10.3.08 (Environmental Allowances).

*205.33(4) (Designation authority)* For the purpose of this instruction, the Director General Compensation and Benefits may designate field unit positions on behalf of the Minister and the Chief of the Defence Staff.

*205.33(5) (Points)* The calculation of points corresponding to accumulated eligible service in the Table to this instruction shall be determined in accordance with paragraphs (3) and (4) in CBI 205.015 (Interpretation).  (from CBI 205.015 “accumulated eligible service” means the aggregate number points calculated in accordance with this instruction, wherein each point equates to one month.)

*205.33(6) (Start and End Dates)* Entitlement to Land Duty Allowance starts on the day on which the member reports for duty and ends on the earliest day on which the member:

(a) departs the unit as defined in CBI 205.015;
(b) is assigned a permanent medical category with medical employment limitation indicating unfit field environment;
(c) begins retirement leave;
(d) is posted to the Service Personnel Holding List;
(e) sick leave is extended for more than 180 days; or
(f) is subject to paragraph 3, attach posted in excess of 6 months.

*Table to CBI 205.33*

COLUMN 1 - ACCUMULATED ELIGIBLE SERVICE    COLUMN 2 - MONTHLY RATE (in dollars)

Less than 60 points  |  297
60 points or more but less than 108 points  |  422          
108 points or more but less than 144 points  |  548
144 points or more but less than 180 points  |  662
180 points or more but less than 216 points  |  705
216 points or more  |  748

*205.335 – CASUAL LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE (CLDA)*

*205.335 (1) (Entitlement)* Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), a member who is not entitled to an allowance under CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance) or category 2 or 3 allowance under CBI 205.385 (Joint Task Force 2 Allowance) is, when the member performs duty in the field, entitled to Casual Land Duty Allowance at the rate of:

(a) $24.71 for each complete 24-hour period of that duty; and
(b) $24.71 for any remaining period of that duty that is of six or more hours duration.

*205.335(2) (Limit)* The total amount of Casual Land Duty Allowance payable in a calendar month to a member shall not exceed the highest monthly rate set out in the Table to CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance).

*205.335(3) (Limitations)* A member is not entitled to Casual Land Duty Allowance when in receipt of:

(a) an incidental expense allowance under the Canadian Forces Temporary Duty Instruction;
(b) an allowance under CBI 10.3.05 (Hardship Allowance); or
(c) an allowance under CBI 10.3.07 (Risk Allowance).

(TB, effective 1 April 2008)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CBI 205.015 (Interpretation) covers all the stuff about accumulation of points for different allowances and the rest of the head-scratching stuff.

I only posted the LDA, however Section 2 of the CBI covers:

205.30 - PARATROOP ALLOWANCE 
205.305 - CASUAL PARATROOP ALLOWANCE 
205.31 - RESCUE SPECIALIST ALLOWANCE 
205.32 - AIRCREW ALLOWANCE 
205.325 - CASUAL AIRCREW ALLOWANCE 
205.33 - LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE 
205.335 - CASUAL LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE 
205.34 - DIVING ALLOWANCE 
205.345 - CASUAL DIVING ALLOWANCE 
205.35 - SEA DUTY ALLOWANCE 
205.355 - CASUAL SEA DUTY ALLOWANCE 
205.36 - HYPOBARIC CHAMBER ALLOWANCE 
205.37 - SUBMARINE ALLOWANCE 
205.375 - CASUAL SUBMARINE ALLOWANCE 
205.38 - EXCEPTIONAL HAZARD ALLOWANCE 
205.385 - JOINT TASK FORCE 2 ALLOWANCE 
205.395 - SURVEY ALLOWANCE


----------



## helpup (12 Sep 2008)

I am not on duty however I am waiting for my troops to be finished a task.  One thing that I have been wondering.  With in most of our cases previous service being documented.  How accurate is the records for tracking how much FOA a member has received over the years.  I could ball park it but after 20 years + of doing this job even I would be hard put to have it accurate let alone close to what it actually was.  I really find it hard to believe that the at times months and all the other weeks that happened early in my career are logged.  Especially since when I first joined our pay office used " paper " pay catalogues to track it all.  Are they going with an assumption for all of us? Use their best guess, which I doubt it would be any more accurate then my own?  

I do preach to my troops, and follow, of keeping a callender of the year of what they have done.  But I don't expect anyone to keep their entire career in some musty basement paperwork corner or locker.  I do recall early on that I had one callender that had me in garrison only for 3 months of the year.  And would that include the tastings that had me entitled for FOA while working with the BSL. Since my TD had to stop also during those times.........

Anyhow just a rambling question that even my MWO RMS clerk wife is not sure of.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Sep 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> Are they going with an assumption for all of us? Use their best guess, which I doubt it would be any more accurate then my own?



Your posting history is well documented thus it is easy to verify if you were in a unit that is elligible for the calculation.


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## Towards_the_gap (12 Sep 2008)

Just to add confusion to the mix....


...As commonwealth service is both pensionable, and creditable towards CD, will commonwealth ''field time'' count towards the points for this?

In my case, after 6 years service in the British Army, 5 years of which in a highly deployable unit, I left with 445 days LSA (longer seperation allowance), which is a taxable, daily allowance paid after the first 14 days of exercise/operations. My ROR IC think he can argue the case for me, but what do the pay guru's on here think?

Please note this ''field time'' is easily proved by my last pay statements received from the British Army.


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## helpup (12 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Your posting history is well documented thus it is easy to verify if you were in a unit that is eligible for the calculation.



My posting history is mostly accurate, however my Field time in a unit,..... I doubt that.  I am until told differant going to assume that they will give an average amount of points for each year in a Field Unit, ( that would be 18 +) With the Start time for accurate accounting happening say 07.  I personally see this being a big mess for the next 3 years until Directive comes from Higher ( National Level ) As some units will be very persnickety about it ( no DSM you don't qualify since your back in Garrison ) and others will be a free for all. Sure CC you get it even though you only went to the Field on..................errrrr never mind you will get it.  ( mind you not a slag for the guys in my or any unit just an example of the problems )


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## helpup (12 Sep 2008)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Just to add confusion to the mix....
> 
> 
> ...As commonwealth service is both pensionable, and creditable towards CD, will commonwealth ''field time'' count towards the points for this?
> ...



And that is my point, we don't have ( that I am aware of) a total accumulation (accurately) of Field time,  It use to be done on a baseball sheet before going on Ex, and then if you were lucky you would get an advance.  Then it moved to log it OC/CO sign off on it and into your bank and current pay statement it goes.  However I highly doubt even since computers were common ( 90's ) that for each CF soldier there is a accurate log.  And if the pay level is on accumulated points then how are they making the starting level for those with more then say 10 years in.  Are they going to assume it is X points per year even though there will be more then some who never hit the Field due to what their job is or even who they are. ( and am more thinking of say SVC Bn but I am pretty sure ALL units have more then their share )


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## George Wallace (12 Sep 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> And that is my point, we don't have ( that I am aware of) a total accumulation (accurately) of Field time,  It use to be done on a baseball sheet before going on Ex, and then if you were lucky you would get an advance.  Then it moved to log it OC/CO sign off on it and into your bank and current pay statement it goes.  However I highly doubt even since computers were common ( 90's ) that for each CF soldier there is a accurate log.  And if the pay level is on accumulated points then how are they making the starting level for those with more then say 10 years in.  Are they going to assume it is X points per year even though there will be more then some who never hit the Field due to what their job is or even who they are. ( and am more thinking of say SVC Bn but I am pretty sure ALL units have more then their share )




 ???


Excuse me?  The Pay Records have an accurate record of how much time you were deployed in the Field and collecting Field Pay.


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## helpup (12 Sep 2008)

And that was the big part of what I was asking, and I will take your word for it and even believe it for say the last 10 years, But our pay system has a log of total Field time for a persons entire career? And that also includes the FOA we got on Crse when we would have to stop TD to get FOA.  I personally haven't seen any think like that in the odd times I have had a one on one with my Clerks and nor is my RMS Clerk wife aware of it.  Mind you at her rank she hasn't dealt with pay issues for a while.


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## George Wallace (12 Sep 2008)

You will also find that much of it should be listed on your MPRR.  If you were deployed on an OP or major Exercise, it will show up on your MPRR.  This may not include the week long Exercises you may go on while in the "Back Forty" at the Unit.  That is where your Pay Records are still the most accurate records.  

Now, have you been a concientious little soldier and maintained your own files at home?  Have you kept all your Pay Statements over the years, or just thrown then in the trash after you confirmed you had money in the bank?  Remember what they keep telling you about your Pay?  If you have your Pay Statements, you have a record of your Field Time.

I got all my pay Records from day one.......Man!  I was paid peanuts way back when.


----------



## MJP (12 Sep 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> And if the pay level is on accumulated points then how are they making the starting level for those with more then say 10 years in.  Are they going to assume it is X points per year even though there will be more then some who never hit the Field due to what their job is or even who they are. ( and am more thinking of say SVC Bn but I am pretty sure ALL units have more then their share )



Well for the purpose of the LDA (as I understand it) it doesn't matter if you went to the field or not.  All that determines the points for allocation is if you did or did not belonged to one of the designated field units.  If so they take each month or portion thereof and give you your point.  So yes some people that may not go to the field as much as other will get the same amount as someone who spends in inordinate amount of time in the field.


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## aesop081 (12 Sep 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> My posting history is mostly accurate, however my Field time in a unit,.....



I dont think you understand. Field time is not the issue. What is the issue is the dates you were posted to a filed unit as laid out in the directive.


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## Nfld Sapper (12 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You will also find that much of it should be listed on your MPRR.  If you were deployed on an OP or major Exercise, it will show up on your MPRR.  This may not include the week long Exercises you may go on while in the "Back Forty" at the Unit.  That is where your Pay Records are still the most accurate records.



Interesting you say Major Exercises, got to double check mine again, but I was on a Brigade Ex (EX Maritime Raider 08) and Area EX (ARCON 07)and _I_ don't think I have seen then on MPRR. I know they are in my UER as I entered them myself.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I got all my pay Records from day one.......Man!  I was paid peanuts way back when.



and you rode into battle on the newest invention of the time....... the chariot.  ;D


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## RubberTree (12 Sep 2008)

Possibly a silly question but...
If one is posted to a unit that is a detachment of a field unit...does that count as being posted to a field unit? Just curious is all.


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## aesop081 (12 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> don't think I have seen then on MPRR. I know they are in my UER as I entered them myself.



You wont see that on an MPRR as it doesnt belong there.


----------



## George Wallace (12 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Interesting you say Major Exercises, got to double check mine again, but I was on a Brigade Ex (EX Maritime Raider 08) and Area EX (ARCON 07)and _I_ don't think I have seen then on MPRR. I know they are in my UER as I entered them myself.



I know I have OP Norwhal on my MPRR.  I considered it an Ex, but that may have only been me.  Others must have considered it an OP.  All my TD to other locations, such as Kingston to Instruct, have been noted on my MPRR also.  It will indicate your postings and taskings, so a record of your time in a "Field Designated Unit" will be there.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> , so a record of your time in a "Field Designated Unit" will be there.



I will be listed in the "posting history" field of the MPRR. Time away on "EX ICE BLOCK 99" will not. I have my MPRR right in front of me.


----------



## George Wallace (12 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I will be listed in the "posting history" field of the MPRR. Time away on "EX ICE BLOCK 99" will not. I have my MPRR right in front of me.



OK, but the "Field Designated Unit" of that you are/were posted to one will be.  What Unit were you with at that time?  Then the dates that you were in that Unit are listed.  Those are the dates used to calculate.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Interesting you say Major Exercises, got to double check mine again, but I was on a Brigade Ex (EX Maritime Raider 08) and Area EX (ARCON 07)and _I_ don't think I have seen then on MPRR. I know they are in my UER as I entered them myself.



It may be different for reservists (if you are one, can't tell from the profile). I was on Stalwart Guardian 04 and it is not listed as I wasn't on Cl B, just a Cl A route letter. Only thing on my MPRR for taskings were Cl A at my unit, Cl B at CFSCE and then Cl B/C at 2 EW/TFA - Kandahar.


----------



## armyvern (14 Sep 2008)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> It may be different for reservists (if you are one, can't tell from the profile). I was on Stalwart Guardian 04 and it is not listed as I wasn't on Cl B, just a Cl A route letter. Only thing on my MPRR for taskings were Cl A at my unit, Cl B at CFSCE and then Cl B/C at 2 EW/TFA - Kandahar.



It works the same way for Reg&ResF (except for the NavRes - they are in a world of their own & I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing).

The MPRR and the UER are two different things.

What is listed on the MPRR is the member's posting/assignment history. That is:
- Postings,
- Attached Postings;
- Operations.

Within your *UER (the Unit Employment Record!!)*, there are four (4) different coloured sheets onto which are recorded:

1.  Qualification Record Sheet (This sheet identifies your promotions and other qualifications)

2.  Miscellaneous Entries Sheet (This sheet identifies quals with no specific codes such as "Life Skills", "Spill response", annual BFT, Annual PWT)

3.  Qualification Summary Supplemental (This sheet identifies specific "Trade" qualifications)

4.  Employment History Record Sheet (This sheet records all of your employment History throughout your career. It records all information about postings, including exercises and change in rank or position. Each section you worked in, each ex you participated on, each tasking you did from "start date" to "end Date"). <--- It is SOP to review this file with your supervisor to ensure it is updated, and I suggest to you, that if you have never been asked by any of your supervisors to sit in for a "UER Review" that you approach them and ask for one - sooner rather than later.


----------



## 421_434_226 (14 Sep 2008)

If any postings to a field unit prior to 01 Apr 07 counts I should be sitting at approx 90 points, although not much chance of going back to a field unit being in the Air Force now. Oh well can't lose what I did not have.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It works the same way for Reg&ResF *(except for the NavRes * - they are in a world of their own & I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad thing).
> 
> The MPRR and the UER are two different things.
> 
> ...



Div Notes?


----------



## armyvern (14 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Div Notes?



NRIMS


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2008)

I have a hard enough time with Div Notes, what a PITA, I don't think I even want to know what that one is....


----------



## helpup (15 Sep 2008)

Back after a Soggy weekend.

Bit of confusion to my question last Friday.  I was wondering how they were going to allocate the points for figuring the level that each person would be at.  I know the directive is 10 Days Field time = 1 month, one month equals one point, 3 points in a year...ect.  I was wondering or under the impression that they would be trying to sort out how much previous Field time we had. ( personally I thought that would be a dead end road as the records are not accurate enough for that ) Unless your George who has every pay statement he ever got, starting with the stone tablet.  Anyhow I now have that sorted out and sorry if I missed something already posted. 

But by happenstance I had the Chief in charge of the project over for dinner last night ( Friends of my wife ) So here is a bit of a update on the allowance.
-Do not expect this to kick in until April 09.  ( they are pedal to the metal to meet that date now and expect a Canforgen in a week or two on it. )
-Any time in a Field unit that meets the criteria will count 1 point per month there. as long as you spent at least 10 days of that month it will count.
-It of course stops when your deployed
- Reserves do not get it yet if a reservist is attached to a Field unit they will get it ( i.e work up Trg )
-your Retro will be 2 years ( plus or minus depending on when it comes out ) and it will be at what your current point level is at. 
-The allowance and retro will be taxed of course but care should be taken since in many cases the lump sum will put you in a higher tax bracket and not enough tax may of been removed. 
-Anyone posted or attached to a Field unit meets the requirements to receive the allowance. 
-Clerks can expect a briefing/ Q&A session before to long ( I will give dates once I get them ) This will be done to the Major Bases, Gagetown, Valcartier, Pet, Kingstong ( I asked about that too ) in the First week, and out West the Second Week. 
- There will be a general Brief / Q&A done at that time by the chief.  
- He will ( if he remembers) try to get me a advance copy of the program and it's implementation to vet for FAQ from my troops.  I will ask if he minds if I also use this Forum to get more FAQ's.  I already went over some of them that came to me at the time.


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Sep 2008)

Seems straight forward enough...

One question...(I am in the 'blue' world now...) are people still receiving FOA until Apr 09, or when was the cut off date that FOA ceases?


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## armyvern (15 Sep 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> Back after a Soggy weekend.
> 
> Bit of confusion to my question last Friday.  I was wondering how they were going to allocate the points for figuring the level that each person would be at.  I know the directive is 10 Days Field time = 1 month, one month equals one point, 3 points in a year...ect.  I was wondering or under the impression that they would be trying to sort out how much previous Field time we had. ( personally I thought that would be a dead end road as the records are not accurate enough for that ) Unless your George who has every pay statement he ever got, starting with the stone tablet.  Anyhow I now have that sorted out and sorry if I missed something already posted.
> 
> ...



And, of course, don't forget that the two years retro total ... will have also have the field pay you DID receive during those 2 years deducted from it as well as the taxes etc that you mentioned.


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## helpup (16 Sep 2008)

Your right Vern the FOA paid during that time period will be deducted from the retro and that is part of the reason why the date got pushed back ( again this is from talking to the chief ) But talking to him about it we both realized that it wont be that bad as say you went to the Field a total of 4 month during that time ( days here and there and or solid time ) But your LDA level is paid monthly and 12 months out of the year.  So you will still be seeing a sizable amount.  

Oh another point that was brought up.  Cbt Arms wide ( and or if you are now in a differant element you might have to ask for it in a month or so) There will be a questionnaire going out to all that will need to be filled out.  Along with your MPRR that gets turned into the clerks ( who have now been suitably briefed and somewhat trained on the new system ) who will go over it and input it.  For the most part it will be straight forward but for those who have a medium amount of time in and or have been posted allot it will more and likely have discrepancies that will have to be looked at in depth.  He does realize that there will be times that the army can't verify, but his point of view on that, is being flexible once the in depth records search is one.  So rather then a big argument with your RMS Clerk ( and it not being their fault ) it may come down to " right signer the Stat Dec".  Just a point though he was musing about that not stating policy.  

He is heading back to Ottawa today and with luck I will get the package this week.


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## helpup (16 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Seems straight forward enough...
> 
> One question...(I am in the 'blue' world now...) are people still receiving FOA until Apr 09, or when was the cut off date that FOA ceases?



I don't know the exact dates for the Cut off.  My unit still takes the FOA information and pays it out.  That is being tallied against the retro amount as Vern pointed out.  FOA is still going to be around as other trades do hit the Field for Trg and not to mention the Reserves right now are not entitled to LDA unless they are working for a Reg Force " entitled" unit.


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## Nfld Sapper (16 Sep 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> I don't know the exact dates for the Cut off.  My unit still takes the FOA information and pays it out.  That is being tallied against the retro amount as Vern pointed out.  FOA is still going to be around as other trades do hit the Field for Trg and not to mention the Reserves right now are not entitled to LDA unless they are working for a Reg Force " entitled" unit.



You sure on that last part?

We are entitled to LDA at the Casual Rate according to my CC.

EDITED TO ADD:

According to CB1 205.335

205.335 – CASUAL LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE (CLDA)
205.335 (1) (Entitlement) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), a member who is not entitled to an allowance under CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance) or category 2 or 3 allowance under CBI 205.385 (Joint Task Force 2 Allowance) is, when the member performs duty in the field, entitled to Casual Land Duty Allowance at the rate of:
(a) $24.71 for each complete 24-hour period of that duty; and
(b) $24.71 for any remaining period of that duty that is of six or more hours duration.

205.335(2) (Limit) The total amount of Casual Land Duty Allowance payable in a calendar month to a member shall not exceed the highest monthly rate set out in the Table to CBI 205.33 (Land Duty Allowance).
205.335(3) (Limitations) A member is not entitled to Casual Land Duty Allowance when in receipt of:
(a) an incidental expense allowance under the Canadian Forces Temporary Duty Instruction;
(b) an allowance under CBI 10.3.05 (Hardship Allowance); or
(c) an allowance under CBI 10.3.07 (Risk Allowance).

Also not withstanding this also applies,

205.33 – LAND DUTY ALLOWANCE (LDA)
205.33(1) (Definition) The definitions in this paragraph apply to this instruction.
“accumulated eligible service” means any period during which a member was posted to a field unit or serving in a position designated by the Minister for the purpose of this instruction to the standard established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff. In addition, periods of service prior to 1 April 2007 with a field unit will also count toward eligible service calculation when determining level of Land Duty Allowance. 
“field unit” means a unit, whose primary role is combat manoeuvre and training for operations or combat support and combat service support to the combat manoeuvre units. Canadian Forces personnel in these units can expect, as part of their normal duties, to be exposed to austere environmental and work conditions for extensive periods of time on a regular basis. These units will be equipped with field equipment, vehicles and stores for this role. 
“posted” means posted to, attach posted to, called out or serving on full-time service. 

205.33(2) (Eligibility) A member of the Regular Force or the Reserve Force on Class “B” or “C” Reserve Service posted to a field unit or any such unit designated by the Minister, or serving in a position designated by the Minister for the purpose of this instruction, is entitled to Land Duty Allowance at the monthly rate set out in the Table to this instruction for the member’s accumulated eligible service, unless the member is in receipt of category 2 or 3 allowance under CBI 205.385 (Joint Task Force 2 Allowance).


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## helpup (16 Sep 2008)

The reserves are not going to be entitled to Full LDA but casual LDA, your right, It is going to take me a while to stop thinking of Casual LDA as anything other then FOA.  But as stated if they are working with a unit that gets "full" LDA then they are entitled to it.  Once I get the briefing package I will point form it and present it for FAQ's.  They would really like to get a handle on that before they start their briefings.


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## CountDC (16 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You will also find that much of it should be listed on your MPRR.  If you were deployed on an OP or major Exercise, it will show up on your MPRR.



now that one kills me - SHOULD is certainly the operative word there.  Can't even count the number of times I have had to search through pers files, pay records and have the member provide proof because something was missing from the MPRR/PERS. For some reason that I fail to understand there are some people out there that would/will not always publish an attach posting into the system nor would/will the member submit it for correction on their MPRR confirmation. The answer when I have asked is always the same - I didn't think it was that important!!

Advice to all:  Check your MPRR and make the corrections, submit it every month and go up the chain if you have to as these things do affect your career and future pay. Also review your pers file itself to make sure everything that should be there is and things that don't belong are removed. MPRR review should be done as often as possible (can be checked in EMAA), pers file yearly. Waiting until you are on a tasking out of country is not the time to deal with this stuff.


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## Nfld Sapper (16 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> now that one kills me - SHOULD is certainly the operative word there.  Can't even count the number of times I have had to search through pers files, pay records and have the member provide proof because something was missing from the MPRR/PERS. For some reason that I fail to understand there are some people out there that would/will not always publish an attach posting into the system nor would/will the member submit it for correction on their MPRR confirmation. The answer when I have asked is always the same - I didn't think it was that important!!
> 
> Advice to all:  Check your MPRR and make the corrections, submit it every month and go up the chain if you have to as these things do affect your career and future pay. Also review your pers file itself to make sure everything that should be there is and things that don't belong are removed. MPRR review should be done as often as possible (can be checked in EMAA), pers file yearly. Waiting until you are on a tasking out of country is not the time to deal with this stuff.



Tell me about it, it took me abit more than a  year to get MOD 1 of PLQ added to it. That was after I provided the course report and MITE Code.


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## helpup (16 Sep 2008)

And that was the point I made earlier when I was under the impression they were going to try and base the LDA level off of the history of FOA each person had.  The system is not set up for that and they are not doing that.  But as was pointed out even sorting out a persons MPRR for accurate time in a Unit and all the postings, deployments and the like leaves allot to be desired.  It is a individuals responsibility to keep up on it especially well before they come out with the tables.  RMS Clerks are going be busy enough handling the normal inquiries let alone people who have left it until the last min.


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## CountDC (16 Sep 2008)

helpup said:
			
		

> And that was the point I made earlier when I was under the impression they were going to try and base the LDA level off of the history of FOA each person had.  The system is not set up for that and they are not doing that.  But as was pointed out even sorting out a persons MPRR for accurate time in a Unit and all the postings, deployments and the like leaves allot to be desired.  It is a individuals responsibility to keep up on it especially well before they come out with the tables.  RMS Clerks are going be busy enough handling the normal inquiries let alone people who have left it until the last min.



reading this I thought of something else people should be aware of.  If your information is not correct it can take awhile to correct.  I have had members on out of country taskings that it took 3 months (half their task time) to get their points calculation correct. Hard to provide required documents that are sitting home while you are somewhere in Africa (and your spouse does not know anything about that file in the back of the cabinet under the hockey gear with a piece of paper amongst the other 100 plus pieces). There are 4 main sources clerks can (and should) use for compiling the data - pay system, peoplesoft, pers file, mbr.  For mbrs that have kept on top of things it usually took only a few minutes to calculate the points and enter the info into the pay system.  So - make a choice, get your allowance started correct and right away or wait for it - up to 3 months or maybe even more (depending on the clerk, their load and where you are placed in their priority list, at the time they were high priority for me).


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## Mil Cop (12 Oct 2008)

Let's try another fly in the ointment...I was in 3 RCR during the infamous 10/90 period.  We were in the field a lot but it's UIC is not listed as one of the recognized ones.  Since it was a 10/90 (I was 10 vice 90) do I have to somehow retrieve the dates we were in the field or what?    ???

Also, I know you don't get LDA money for deployments overseas but do you get the points for being part of the unit?  I added up my points my points from my MPRR and after doing almost 14 yrs with field units I still only managed to get 66 points! This means some newby is one level below me with his one point - nice.  

Still, feels kinda nice to be treated like I'm air force!


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2008)

Are you still in an organization that will be getting this full time field pay?


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## Mil Cop (12 Oct 2008)

No, not still with them.  The whole idea got shut off as a massive flop.  Currently in Kingston with a unit that does qualify so that's a good thing.  

Here's another question though...both 3 RCR and MP Det Petawawa have changed their UIC's - how would you query a UIC that no longer exists to see if they qualify?


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Oct 2008)

Yes  I do know that 10/90 was shut down.  I was just wondering if you were in a different unit that is collecting field pay (which you have said does).


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## Cdnrednk (7 Feb 2009)

I'm at 2 Fd Amb, have been there since late June of 2008. We have filled out a form for back pay for "Land Duty Allowance" wich is basically 297 a month for being in a field unit. We are being back payed I beleive for the last 2 years, but for me it will only be since June... Either way, it's still a good chunk of money. I keep hearing rumour dates for when we should get payed... Like the Mid March pay as to we may never get it.
Can anyone give me any idea as to when we will get it? My guess is March since we start getting it every month come April.


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## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2009)

Last brief I received on the subject was that LDA was on hold, because the Treasury board said the money used as compensation for pers in a field unit could not be done in the form of a pay raise, which a monthly LDA is. Perhaps that's changed since you're filling out forms for backpay already.


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## Cdnrednk (7 Feb 2009)

All we filled out was basically our basic personal info, our join date (to figure out how many "points" we have since the rate increases with points) and when we were posted to the unit and if we have served with other field units. This was filled out and had to be handed in before the end of Jan. I asked one of our clerks and I didn't really get an answer.
So we should just not expect to get the money untill we see it then I guess.


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## Sub_Guy (7 Feb 2009)

Is this points system up and running?

I do realize that LDA could be taking some time to come online, but what about the other allowances and the points system?   More specifically if I have over 60 points in Sea time shouldn't that be transferred to my Aircrew allowance?


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## aesop081 (7 Feb 2009)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> More specifically if I have over 60 points in Sea time shouldn't that be transferred to my Aircrew allowance?



They will as explained in the breif that was given on the wing. (while you were away IIRC)


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## aesop081 (7 Feb 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> could not be done in the form of a pay raise, which a monthly LDA is.



That is incorect information. The environmental allowances are not pay thus why they do not count towards your pension.


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## Run away gun (7 Feb 2009)

Right now it is the CLS order that all field pay will be paid out before 1 Apr 09. Also, if your unit has completed the paperwork, you still have to wait for clerks all across the board to finish off the paperwork for everybody, then everyone will get the pay all at once.


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## Cdnrednk (7 Feb 2009)

That is also the other rumour that I heard, that we had to wait for the rest of the units to finish up their paper work... So if it isn't all completed by all the approriate units nobody gets it at all even after the start of the fiscal year?


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## Run away gun (7 Feb 2009)

Also to add to my last, there are still lots of things that need to be sorted out;

Like for example, how many days in a month equal a point? Is everyone getting backpaid at the first incentive, or at whatever incentive they currently fall under? 


I am sure there are lots of others, and someone somewhere is busy finding answers to the questions, but nothing as of yet has come down to the units.


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## Run away gun (7 Feb 2009)

Cdnrednk said:
			
		

> That is also the other rumour that I heard, that we had to wait for the rest of the units to finish up their paper work... So if it isn't all completed by all the approriate units nobody gets it at all even after the start of the fiscal year?



That is what I understood.


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## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2009)

Cdnrednk said:
			
		

> That is also the other rumour that I heard, that we had to wait for the rest of the units to finish up their paper work... So if it isn't all completed by all the approriate units nobody gets it at all even after the start of the fiscal year?



You'll just get more backpay. It'll be like a second tax return.

RAG, do you have a CANLANGEN or other reference on that CLS direction? I'd like to use it to stir the pot at my unit if the clerks are not already aware.


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## Cdnrednk (7 Feb 2009)

The word I heard was that the CLS wanted us to have the back pay before April... But please stir the pot as I could use the money to get my new toy a month earlier than I plan on lol.


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## Run away gun (7 Feb 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You'll just get more backpay. It'll be like a second tax return.
> 
> RAG, do you have a CANLANGEN or other reference on that CLS direction? I'd like to use it to stir the pot at my unit if the clerks are not already aware.



Sorry I don't. That is just what was passed on to us in an O group. " Field pay has to be paid out before 1 Apr 09 "


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## combatbuddha (8 Feb 2009)

That is the same info we received from the clerks. The units must have 80% of their paperwork completed before the pay people will dole out the cash to that unit. The paperwork is essential and from what I was told by our chief clerk, the paperwork is being changed almost daily by Ottawa. Some of us older folks need historical checks done on our files for point calculation, and I forsee that this is where the bottle neck is gonna be.


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## meni0n (8 Feb 2009)

Since it's retroactive to apr 07, I was posted APS 07 to a static unit, which means I should be eligible for about 3 and a half months of LDA backpay. I asked my clerk about it but was told that Ottawa will be making the calculations and the payment. I was never asked to fill out any form, does that mean I won't be getting the backpay unless I try to bug my clerk into action or will all the calculations be done by Ottawa?


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## ltmaverick25 (8 Feb 2009)

What exactly is land duty allowance?  I was in the army for 14 years and then switched over to the navy last year.  Is this still something I would be entitled to?  If so, I think I may end up slipping through the cracks.  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.


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## PMedMoe (8 Feb 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> What exactly is land duty allowance?  I was in the army for 14 years and then switched over to the navy last year.  Is this still something I would be entitled to?  If so, I think I may end up slipping through the cracks.  Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.



The LDA is going to be a regular monthly allowance given to members of particular field units instead if giving them field pay when they go in the field.  Much like navy personnel receive sea pay if they are posted to a ship, whether the ship is at sea or not.  Someone already posted a link of the units that are going to get the LDA.  Eligibility would depend on which unit you were in and when you transferred.  IIRC, reserve units are not entitled to it.


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## ltmaverick25 (8 Feb 2009)

Thanks, do you have the link handy?  Did a quick search but couldnt find it.


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## PMedMoe (8 Feb 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Thanks, do you have the link handy?  Did a quick search but couldnt find it.



Here you go:  http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dgcb/dppd/allowance/engraph/clrdivera14_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=30


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## combatbuddha (8 Feb 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The LDA is going to be a regular monthly allowance given to members of particular field units instead if giving them field pay when they go in the field.  Much like navy personnel receive sea pay if they are posted to a ship, whether the ship is at sea or not.  Someone already posted a link of the units that are going to get the LDA.  Eligibility would depend on which unit you were in and when you transferred.  IIRC, reserve units are not entitled to it.



According to the briefings received, any past field deployments with an operational land unit will count for points towards LDA. This also includes any other accumulative time such as the receipt of sea duty allowance. The example that was given was that Sailor A did 4 years on ship and remustered to an army trade such as Arty. Sailor A would have the time credited from his Sea Duty allowance towards his points for LDA. If he subsequently remustered again, back to a hard sea trade and was posted to a ship, his previous SDA and LDA would count towards the overall points for his new SDA.
The LDA is being calculated as if it had always exisited, however the backpay is only being counted from Apr 07.
The hiccup being found right now in my instance as well as many other older guys is where we were posted to operational units and deployed on tour. These days Hard ship allowance will take place of LDA whilst on tour, but the points are still thrown in the overall pot. Back in the mid nineties there was no Hardship allowance, but a post differential allowance. The clerks have to check each individual in question to see if they received PDA. If they did, they will have those points thrown in the pot.
I am not to sure how this will affect air crew. and it would be interesting to see now if the LDA points are transferrable to SDA. This could be a big break for the guys who haved OT'd and could have large implications on their overall points...A good headache for the clerks to figure out.


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## PMedMoe (8 Feb 2009)

I understand all that, but in this person's case, he may not be entitled to any of the *back pay* but will still get points awarded to him.


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## PuckChaser (8 Feb 2009)

So has this been scrapped for reservists, and we'll still continue to receive the daily rate? I'd much prefer 7 years of backpay instead of almost 3 years.


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## aesop081 (8 Feb 2009)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> I am not to sure how this will affect air crew.



It will affect us the exact same way.


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## lou-reed (8 Feb 2009)

Anyone know if there is a Canforgen that covers procedures for retired members to apply for the backpay.  I am not sure the mechanics of the points system but I retired  in Jan 2008 after 20 years having about 12 years in operational units as listed in the Canforgen link including 2RCR, 1 SVC BN, and 2 CMBG HQ and Sigs.  

If this is retro to Apr 2007, I should be entitled to something as I was with 2CMBG from 2006-2008.  Any info is appreciated.

Thanks


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## PhilB (10 Feb 2009)

This may have already been answered but;

I am a reservist that was attached to 3VP for TF 1-08. We started work up in Apr 07. We were told in theater when the LDA came out that if reservists were attached posted on Cl C contracts we would be entitled to the allowance, at the lowest point level. Can anyone confirm or deny this? 

Thanks


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## dapaterson (10 Feb 2009)

Reservists att-posted to a Reg F unit will receive the allowance, at the rate level to which they are entitled (meaning someone with former Reg F service who accumulated points may receive a higher rate).

Implementation is ongoing; I think the intent is to have it go through for everyone at the same time (to avoid the inevitable b**ching that would go on if it was paid as each file was processed).

Reservists will continue to be eligible for the casual allowance when deployed in the field.  And, if posted or att-posted to a unit entitled to LDA that member will receive it.

No Reserve units are on the list of LDA-eligible units, as the amount of filed time for a typical Reserve unit does not warrant the allowance.


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## PuckChaser (10 Feb 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> No Reserve units are on the list of LDA-eligible units, as the amount of filed time for a typical Reserve unit does not warrant the allowance.



I would say that point would be debatable, especially considering some of the Reg F units that are entitled, however there are people paid far more than I am to decide these things.


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## dapaterson (10 Feb 2009)

A Reserve unit, in the Sept-May timeframe, parading alternate weekend (a rarity) with all those weekends in the field (another rarity) would see about 40 days in the field for a year.

A more realistic schedule would be half that number of weekends, half of those in the field, or 10 days per year.  Plus 7 in the summer for collective training.  17 days a year for a primarily part-time unit does not meet the cut-off for a monthly allowance.


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## PhilB (10 Feb 2009)

Dapaterson,

Thanks for the reply. A couple quick questions of clarification;

1. You say att-posted, just to confirm, being on Cl C contract with that unit would count?

2. Is there any paper work I need to fill out for this allowance, or should it be automatic. 

Thanks.


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## dapaterson (10 Feb 2009)

Class C with the unit should be OK.  Check your MPRR to ensure the details were captured there.

I'm not certain about the admin process; it would probably be worthwhile to ask up your chain of command.


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## reccecrewman (1 Mar 2009)

When it comes, it comes..... this is bonus money, nothing more. What will be interesting with this LDA is to see how many members get themselves into bad financial spots. Picture it - Soldier belonging to a Reg Force combat arms Regiment starts getting monthly LDA..... say he's in the second bracket of 400+ a month...... His normal pay is budgeted out for his home, car, insurances and bills..... now he's getting this extra 400+ so he decides to go for another vehicle, new home with higher mortgage or some other long term financial commitment counting on that 400+ a month to make it work...... next APS said soldier gets posted to a non designated unit. *poof*.... LDA gone and a financial burden is born....  I'll be sure to enjoy this money, but in no way do I intend to to bank on this LDA as a guarenteed income  for year after year to be included in my monthly budget.


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## PMedMoe (2 Mar 2009)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> I'll be sure to enjoy this money, but in no way do I intend to to bank on this LDA as a guarenteed income  for year after year to be included in my monthly budget.



That's a great point and one I would make as well.  Bank it, put it into tax-free savings, RRSP, RESP, whatever.  No different than the people who get used to receiving PLD and get posted somewhere they don't get it.


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## CountDC (3 Mar 2009)

...and it will happen.

Same thing happens in the Navy with sea pay - they get used to it and then one day it is gone.  Best not to put it into your budget.  I kept sea pay as on board spending money so that D9 didn't have to change the budget to accomodate my away expenses - shaving gear, family gifts, etc >

Recently received an email with a brief attached which stated that most will have the LDA by the end of this month - mind you that brief was actually given in Nov.


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## reccecrewman (3 Mar 2009)

I plan to open one of those TFSA accounts and drop my LDA in there each month. I already have a budget with mine and 9D's money...... so I figured that TFSA would be the best way to use this new cash.


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## reccecrewman (17 Mar 2009)

Here we go again..... just got told MAYBE summer 09 we'll see this LDA. After being told in January we should be getting it around April. It just keeps getting pished back farther and farther.


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## HItorMiss (17 Mar 2009)

Reccecrewman

CDS mandated no later then 15 Apr for back pay and start of LDA. So whoever is telling you summer is wrong. Have you signed the form that OR has done up to calculate the points you have accumulated?


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## Armymedic (17 Mar 2009)

I am in Borden, was posted to a LDA entitled units until this summer. Did up the paper work last week and was told my back pay will be on my end Mar pay.

One thing I saw though, is the back pay amounts are less than the LDA allowance. For the clerk types, is this to compensate for us already possible collecting field pay in the past?

Further for the clerk types, in doing up my paperwork, I noticed one of my former units A Sqn 8CH in Gagetown was not a LDA enitiles unit, even though it was just a "cap badge change" carried-on from C Sqn RCD from 93-96ish...Is there no recognition for historic units who are not around anymore?


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## George Wallace (17 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> I am in Borden, was posted to a LDA entitled units until this summer. Did up the paper work last week and was told my back pay will be on my end Mar pay.
> 
> One thing I saw though, is the back pay amounts are less than the LDA allowance. For the clerk types, is this to compensate for us already possible collecting field pay in the past?
> 
> Further for the clerk types, in doing up my paperwork, I noticed one of my former units A Sqn 8CH in Gagetown was not a LDA enitiles unit, even though it was just a "cap badge change" carried-on from C Sqn RCD from 93-96ish...Is there no recognition for historic units who are not around anymore?




Did you calculate Taxes and other deductions into your equation?

I don't recall seeing C Sqn RCD in the list of entitled Units.  That is a moot point as both Sqns predate the eligibility of the Allowance.


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## PMedMoe (17 Mar 2009)

If I'm not mistaken, the back pay amounts are all being paid at the lowest rate to make things easier.


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## HItorMiss (17 Mar 2009)

SFB

I am not sure why you saw the back pay being posted at less then the LDA amount. As it is straight from our clerks and the paper work they have outlined to us the back pay is your points from Apr 07-Mar08 and then Mar 08-present at what points you were entitled to during those times.

If your points changed your entitlement during that time then your back pay reflects that..for me it was simple level 2 thru out. But some go from initial to lvl 2 half way thru and that added some cash and some work LOL.

Wow it's very odd how all these reports are so widely different, thankfuly our clerks let us see all the paperwork and walk us all thru it.


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## Armymedic (17 Mar 2009)

George, 
Its for my points entitlement. In my history of LDA entitled units, C Sqn was there, A Sqn was not. Not that makes a difference to me right now, but once I am posted back to a unit entitled environmental allowances, the 18 months worth of points will put me just under the 216 points req'd to max out.


----------



## HItorMiss (17 Mar 2009)

Moe as I stated and was explained by the CC of my unit the back pay for both years is set at what you are entitled to at each lvl. So if you were lvl 2 for both years then 4 (ish) a month x 24 months.

Or for some people as an example lvl 1x 12 months and then lvl 2 x 12...or any combination of months at one level or the other etc etc etc.


----------



## PMedMoe (17 Mar 2009)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Moe as I stated and was explained by the CC of my unit the back pay for both years is set at what you are entitled to at each lvl. So if you were lvl 2 for both years then 4 (ish) a month x 24 months.
> 
> Or for some people as an example lvl 1x 12 months and then lvl 2 x 12...or any combination of months at one level or the other etc etc etc.



Seen, thanks.  Maybe they considered the other option originally.  I seem to remember the hubby saying something like that.  Alas, I am no longer in a qualifying unit.  :'(


----------



## combatbuddha (17 Mar 2009)

SFB said:
			
		

> George,
> Its for my points entitlement. In my history of LDA entitled units, C Sqn was there, A Sqn was not. Not that makes a difference to me right now, but once I am posted back to a unit entitled environmental allowances, the 18 months worth of points will put me just under the 216 points req'd to max out.



Your clerks will have to do a historical check on you. Question everything with them. I did and it got me a few extra points that put me in the next bracket now, rather than later.


----------



## meni0n (17 Mar 2009)

Does anyone know where someone can get these forms? I am now with a static unit but was with a field unit until July 2007. Clerks don't want to do a thing and say Ottawa will make the payment automatically. Is there any solid information out there how/if people who were posted after april 07?


----------



## CountDC (19 Mar 2009)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Does anyone know where someone can get these forms? I am now with a static unit but was with a field unit until July 2007. Clerks don't want to do a thing and say *Ottawa will make the payment automatically*. Is there any solid information out there how/if people who were posted after april 07?



 :rofl: 

Oh - they were being serious??  Hopefully someone will get you the form.  In the old days I would recommend inviting the clerk around the other side of the truck to discuss things with the tire iron but they say that is no longer allowed in the modern touchy feely military. Someone needs to get it through to them that Ottawa does not auto do the unit clerks work - nor does anyone in Ottawa have the means to do this as one of the main source docs for calculating allowance points is the pers file which is held at the unit - second most important source is the member. Computer records are not enough for these things as sometimes attach postings are not published - check your MPRR to see if yours are all there. I spent a year calculating points and almost every one was amended after talking to the member and receiving their pers files which had att-post messages not published to the computer.  Not sure about the army side but on the navy you also had the problem of members "loaned" to another ship that you had to watch for.  Had no luck getting the forms for you so far but will keep trying.  Waiting on response from a few contacts at army bases.  correction - received response and have forms - 10 in total that the clerks are supposed to use.  Now just have to figure best method to get them to you.


----------



## MJP (19 Mar 2009)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Does anyone know where someone can get these forms? I am now with a static unit but was with a field unit until July 2007. Clerks don't want to do a thing and say Ottawa will make the payment automatically. Is there any solid information out there how/if people who were posted after april 07?



Menion drop me a PM with an email addy and I will forward you the documents.  All you really need is the member questionaire but I have most of the guiding documents as well.


----------



## CountDC (19 Mar 2009)

you also may want to point your clerks here:


ANNEX A
TO LFCO 11-60
Dated 1 Oct 2008

CLERKS RESPONSIBILITIES

4.	Unit clerks will be required to complete the Clerk Checklist, (Annex C) and attach a copy of the mbrs MPRR for each member they support.  Annex D, outlines the step by step procedures that must be followed in order to ensure that each member’s points are calculated accurately and verified.


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## meni0n (19 Mar 2009)

Count, do you have the link to the complete document, so that I can print it out and go have a talk with the clerk.


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## Bzzliteyr (19 Mar 2009)

On of the other IR regforce guys here was actually told the amount coming in on his end month pay for this month.  He said he's "niveau 3" and will be expecting $2000 ish.  He gave me the number of the clerk to call on my base but I misplaced it.


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## CountDC (19 Mar 2009)

sorry, won't let me attach the doc for some reason.

Online link is out of date - still has old reg on FOA.  Have notified them about the update.  The link is here when the get the update done:

http://lfcms.kingston.mil.ca/?sectionID=143000440000464&type=S&Lng=E


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## meni0n (19 Mar 2009)

Ok thanks hopefully will be soon. 

Cheers


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## CountDC (19 Mar 2009)

meni0n - check your PM.


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## BigDaddyFatback (20 Mar 2009)

My Pay statement for End March has no Field pay on it.....

Hmmmm....I have heard lots of grumblings about this being cancelled...

Is it true? Good thing I didnt spend that money yet....lol


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Mar 2009)

You should NEVER spend your money until it's in the bank...


----------



## CountDC (20 Mar 2009)

BDF - FOA replaced by LDA, check with your clerks to see if you qualify.


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Mar 2009)

If the LDA is to be effective 1 Apr 09, that should mean our first pay statement with LDA on it would be 15 Apr 09, should it not??


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## CountDC (20 Mar 2009)

my understanding is that the plan was to have it paid out end of March but it has now been delayed to mid Apr.  If the unit clerks have done everything they were supposed to do the entries would be already made into the system so you will not recieve FOA on your end Mar Pay either.

As I said that is only my understanding as thankfully I am not involvled directly in this wonderful adventure that all your clerks are so lucky to be and I know they are all so happy. Perhaps you should call them everyday and ask how the LDA is going just to hear how happy they are.  >

 :fifty: is this your clerk today?


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## combatbuddha (20 Mar 2009)

Actually we were told to leave the clerks alone wrt this issue unless we wanted a size 6 combat boot placed in one of our more intimate places...lol.
Apparently for 1 CMBG the money will be in the bank mid April...I saw the e-mail chain to prove it...


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## George Wallace (20 Mar 2009)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> Actually we were told to leave the clerks alone wrt this issue unless we wanted a size 6 combat boot placed in one of our more intimate places...lol.
> Apparently for 1 CMBG the money will be in the bank mid April...I saw the e-mail chain to prove it...



I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.   >


----------



## combatbuddha (21 Mar 2009)

Whatever.
1 CMBG has done their homework and is getting it on time.


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## Abram Tank (21 Mar 2009)

I found that while I served with the Army of the west, 3 and 1 RCHA, almost all the units out west were switched on when it came to paperwork, and kit issues, unlike now here at LFCA Petawawa.


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## JSR OP (23 Mar 2009)

Hey all
I just checked with one of our clerks, and followed up by checking my March end of month pay statement on EMAA, and, at least for me, the retro pay for the LDA is in. Cha Ching!

Try not to crash the system by checking all at once!


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## PMedMoe (23 Mar 2009)

It's on my spouse's end month pay, too.


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## JSR OP (23 Mar 2009)

I've talked to a few pers, and it appears on some, and not on others...  Sounds like a crap shoot.

good luck everyone!


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## Love793 (23 Mar 2009)

Some units followed the directions given from Ottawa, and members got theirs right on schedule. Some others attempted to interpret the directions from Ottawa as mere guidelines, and now their members are waiting patiently.


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## vonGarvin (23 Mar 2009)

Imagine that, taking directions as suggestions.:


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## Love793 (23 Mar 2009)

It's amazing how people take the words "You will..." and interpret them as "If and when you see fit can you please...." :


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## CountDC (25 Mar 2009)

best of it all is that they will now blame it on Ottawa and the member again goes away with the impression that they were screwed by the pencil pushers in Ottawa.

Somethings never change.


----------



## meni0n (25 Mar 2009)

Well they finally started doing something but now I was told that Ottawa have taken over some screen and the code they try to use is frozen and they cannot access it now until Ottawa unblocks it. I hope this makes sense for somebody.


----------



## Armymedic (26 Mar 2009)

End Mar pay guide in, and I am getting the back pay 31 Mar. Cha-ching. 8)

Not currently entitled to LDA, so not sure when the allowance will start.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (26 Mar 2009)

So combatbuddha did the cheque come in?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (26 Mar 2009)

For those that did get it was it was the back pay based on the base amount or what you would have been getting had this allowance been up and running?


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## PMedMoe (26 Mar 2009)

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> For those that did get it was it was the back pay based on the base amount or what you would have been getting had this allowance been up and running?



It was what you would have been getting.  The regular allowance starts 01 Apr 09.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (26 Mar 2009)

Thanks


----------



## Bzzliteyr (26 Mar 2009)

I got about $800 on mine, taxed of course.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (26 Mar 2009)

That seems low doesn't it?


----------



## Bzzliteyr (26 Mar 2009)

I worked at the Armour School for many years.. and we all know that they NEVER go to the field.  I was not entitled to it.

I am really not sure how they figured entitlement so I only put in for as far back as 2007.  The paper sent to me was very vague.  I am sure it should be higher if I calculate my regimental time before the posting (of 11 years!!) and the ice storm, Saguenay floods, Bosnia, etc.. 

More to follow next week when I get back to work and talk with super clerks!!


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## HItorMiss (26 Mar 2009)

Bzz and LWAT

If you were on tour and in receipt of HA you will not be paid any LDA backpay for that time, meaning that if you were on tour anytime between 1 Apr 07 until now you will get points but no cash.

So when we go on tour we will not continue to get LDA but instead get HA and points towards LDA.

Clear as mud?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (26 Mar 2009)

Thanks I did know that.  Thank you anyway though.  Bzzliteyr I have heard the schools are going to be getting it now.  Yeah I know Rumint et al


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## combatbuddha (29 Mar 2009)

Mid April for us. However,

It was just deemed by some clerk in Western area that anyone on PCat or TCat will NOT have their LDA submitted until a review has been done. No names, no pack drill. I am on TCat, but with no restrictions. I am fit field and operationally deployable. The nature of the TCat is my own business. 
 So it appears as though some butt covering is going on as the original CANFORGEN said it was pers who were unfit field. Heaven for bid they ask these questions and review our MPRR with us with a copy of the TCat during our one on one LDA interview.

Anywho, I will just have to wait a bit longer. I won't be able to spend it until I get back from Suffield.  ;D


----------



## JSR OP (29 Mar 2009)

Its not just some clerk in Western Area.  Pers at the JSR are dealing with the  TCat/PCat issue too.  It would appear that this is an Ottawa thing.  Don't blame your local clerks!


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## PMedMoe (29 Mar 2009)

I imagine they will have to look at the MELs on every TCat and PCat to determine if the member is eligible for the LDA.  IMHO, it wouldn't be right if someone who is unfit field received it.


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## aesop081 (29 Mar 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I imagine they will have to look at the MELs on every TCat and PCat to determine if the member is eligible for the LDA.  IMHO, it wouldn't be right if someone who is unfit field received it.



Not only who currently IS on MEL but likely who WAS on MELs....as this is all retroactive.

What a mess.


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## Bzzliteyr (30 Mar 2009)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> Heaven for bid they ask these questions and review our MPRR with us with a copy of the TCat during our one on one LDA interview.



What is this "one on one" interview you speak of??


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## PuckChaser (30 Mar 2009)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> What is this "one on one" interview you speak of??



We all got one at my unit, a clerk reviews your MPRR with you and explains LDA briefly.


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Mar 2009)

Base Shilo has yet to implent this.  Can't speak for the BN or Regt.


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## Fusaki (30 Mar 2009)

> What is this "one on one" interview you speak of??



I've done one.

Sometime after your first "group appointment" where you confirm whats on your MPRR you go do a short "one on one" appointment with a clerk.

It's a 5 minute thing where clerk says "these are how many points you have, this is how much you're getting backpay, sign here, sign here, have a nice day."

I did mine last month.


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## combatbuddha (31 Mar 2009)

There is no blame, only the result.
 Another check in the box during the form filling and subsequent interviews would have been nice, rather than an 11th hour e-mail stating that all T and PCats were under review for entitlement. Seems kinda dodgey,
But hey, it'll just accumulate from here, right?


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## kincanucks (31 Mar 2009)

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> Thanks I did know that.  Thank you anyway though.  Bzzliteyr I have heard the schools are going to be getting it now.  Yeah I know Rumint et al



You heard wrong.


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## Big Foot (31 Mar 2009)

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> Base Shilo has yet to implent this.  Can't speak for the BN or Regt.


While I can't speak for the Bn, I can confirm that 1RCHA has processed the LDA paperwork and we will begin seeing our LDA allotments as of the 15 April pay. Not sure whether or not that includes the backpay though.


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Apr 2009)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> You heard wrong.



I am  not surprised


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## reccecrewman (6 Apr 2009)

Well, I just checked the EMAA site today, it's NOW official.... LDA is in.


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## AmmoTech90 (6 Apr 2009)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Well, I just checked the EMAA site today, it's NOW official.... LDA is in.



Just a heads up, it is not in for all.  Those people with odd circumstances (attach posted to a LDA unit) may or may not have it.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Apr 2009)

Hell I haven't even had my interview yet.  Same with the others entitled in the shop


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## shantzy (6 Apr 2009)

now does anyone here know when the higher-ups will sort out the ppl currently on TCAT and correct their LDA so they receive the LDA their entitled to? I was injured while on TF108 came home had to wait for surgery - rec'd the surgery went on TCAT while attending Physio - now I noticed the pay for Mid April shows the LDA being put on the mid April's cheque but then taken right off.  I'm not too worried about the months I was on TCAT I understand the whole not able to go to field - but I'm confused as to why I wouldn't receive the LDA for the months I was in fact in the field or field ready.
  Any Suggestions would be appreciated.  Oh and I have seen one clerk - who said their not too sure whats going on.  
Thanks!


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## shantzy (7 Apr 2009)

does anyone here know when the higher-ups will sort out the ppl currently on TCAT and correct their LDA so they receive the LDA their entitled to? I was injured while in Afghanistan, came home had to wait for surgery - rec'd the surgery went on TCAT while attending Physio - now I noticed the pay for Mid April shows the LDA being put on the mid April's cheque but then taken right off.  I'm not too worried about the months I was on TCAT I understand the whole not able to go to field - but I'm confused as to why I wouldn't receive the LDA for the months I was in fact in the field or field ready.
  Any Suggestions would be appreciated.  Oh and I have seen one clerk - who said their not too sure whats going on.  
Thanks!


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## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2009)

Since you already asked this question here, was it necessary to post it again?


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## shantzy (7 Apr 2009)

Im new to this posting thing and I thought my orgional was posted to a dead thread it looked like there was not any activity since my origional post so I made a new topic.


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## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2009)

Well, sometimes answers don't show up as quickly as you'd like.  You only posted that last night.  Double posting is frowned upon here.


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## shantzy (7 Apr 2009)

please forgive my double posting*


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## shantzy (7 Apr 2009)

For what its worth I did some of my own digging around and apparently the CANFORGEN States that if your on TCAT then you will be getting the LDA, if your on PCAT - you will not.  According to one of the clerks - the higher-ups have temporarily placed a hold on ppl with either a TCAT or PCAT so if they indeed do not qualify for the LDA they will not be overpaid come MID April's pay.  The higher-ups have to review each TCAT/PCAT individually and decide whether each individual qualifies.  
  Thanks for your help PMEDMOE Cheers*


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## shantzy (7 Apr 2009)

I also found this located in the CANFORGEN :

205.33(6) (Start and End Dates) Entitlement to Land Duty Allowance starts on the day on which the member reports for duty and ends on the earliest day on which the member:

(a) departs the unit as defined in CBI 205.015;
(b) is assigned a permanent medical category with medical employment limitation indicating unfit field environment;
(c) begins retirement leave;
(d) is posted to the Service Personnel Holding List;
(e) sick leave is extended for more than 180 days; or
(f) is subject to paragraph 3, attach posted in excess of 6 months.

So according to the CANFORGEN...TCAT members should get the LDA.
so why does my pay not reflect that?  any suggestions?


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## PMedMoe (7 Apr 2009)

People can be on a TCAT and still be unfit field.  They might want to re-think that CANFORGEN.


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## Armymedic (7 Apr 2009)

Reservist are not entitled LDA, only "casual" LDA. If you are in Afghanistan you do not recieve LDA.

If you posted to a unit entitled LDA then you will get. Be patient. the bugs are not all sorted out yet.


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## DJessome (8 Apr 2009)

Just a note.  The back pay is not in for everyone, even those without unusual circumstances.  At my unit, it is only going to arrive at the end of the month.  So if you don't see it on your pay statement, don't panic; it's still coming.


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## helpup (8 Apr 2009)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Just a heads up, it is not in for all.  Those people with odd circumstances (attach posted to a LDA unit) may or may not have it.



Take that to heart and was already mentioned dont spend what you dont have in your account.  One of my guys banked on the money for his wedding.  And his slipped through the cracks and is not going in on time.


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## CountDC (8 Apr 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> Take that to heart and was already mentioned dont spend what you dont have in your account.  One of my guys banked on the money for his wedding.  And his slipped through the cracks and is not going in on time.



ouch


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## helpup (8 Apr 2009)

I looked into it for him and he slipped through the cracks but he got little sympathy from me as he has worked long enough with me especially to know my rants on what not to do in life to live happy.


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## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> I looked into it for him and he slipped through the cracks but he got little sympathy from me as he has worked long enough with me especially to know my rants on what not to do in life to live happy.



He would get little sympathy from me, too, for committing money he didn't have.


----------



## DJessome (9 Apr 2009)

If he's new, he has my sympathy.  Anyone not familiar with the military would think that when dates are given, that they're solid.  After a few times of waiting for backpay on cost of living increases though, new people will learn.


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## CountDC (9 Apr 2009)

DJessome said:
			
		

> If he's new, he has my sympathy.  Anyone not familiar with the military would think that when dates are given, that they're solid.  After a few times of waiting for backpay on cost of living increases though, new people will learn.



?? perhaps you didn't understand helpup last?  "know my rants on what not to do..."

Seems to me it is clear that mbr had been warned several times not to be spending money until received.  No sympathy for those that ignore good advice.


----------



## helpup (9 Apr 2009)

Thanks for the assist Count, I wasnt going to point out that I thought I made it clear.  BTW the guy is a Cpl and I have been ( as stated ) working with him long enough to know he has more then a familiarity of the way things work.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Apr 2009)

On the flip side, if the mbr is entitled and should have it now, is the system not at fault for NOT having the $$ in the mbr's account now?

Mbr was supposed to have X amount of $ deposited on Y day.  $ was not deposited.  It is now the mbr's fault for counting on the correct $ being deposited?

So, following that line of thinking, if my pay doesn't go in on the 15th, and I can't make my car payment, my CoC would then say "you should know better than to rely on your pay being in the bank on time to pay your bills".

 ???

I know our pay system is not perfect, but I don't agree with the idea here that the mbr shouldn't be looked after, when its already been acknowledged he slipped thru the cracks.  At worst, a local payment or something could be made, as the mbr didn't expect something he was not entitled to, based on the info provided.


----------



## helpup (9 Apr 2009)

I disagree Eye, this is not normal pay we are dealing with.  And cases of that do happen and I am all over that for the soldier.  As it was in this case I also got this Cpl's problem sorted out and his paperwork that did fall through the cracks has gone through.  But as this site noted the definate date for this payment to be made was up in the Air. Way back when I knew from the horses mouth so to speak it was going to be in April.  Yet some did get it end March.  Some will not get it untill later.  

I stand by my statement of no sympathy ( although I will work for him to get it as it is my job)  Counting on this money for his wedding is like counting on a pay incentive or promotion increase to get a loan or make payments.  The banks wont do it untill they see a pay statement showing that money is there vice should be there.  And a soldier should do the same thing.  It does not equate to normal pay being screwed up.

I also never said I didnt look after or ensured he was looked after, if I made it look like that then my bad.  I did council him on his poor planning though


----------



## helpup (9 Apr 2009)

Too Add;  As was already mentioned to all out there getting this allowance.  Do not make your lifestyle change due to the extra money.  You can be posted out of this allowance and if you base payments on having it you will soon find yourself in the hurt locker.  I am not saying you must bank it ( t'would be smart though) But paying down outstanding bills should be your first priority.  Treating yourself is also ok, just ensure you are not including it in your budgetary planning for major purchases or lifestyles.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Apr 2009)

helpup,

I guess my post made it sound like I was directing it at you when I intended it to be directed at 'the system', which worked for some, but not this lad.   I wasn't trying to suggest you didn't look after your troop, and apologize if thats the way it sounded.

I guess I just don't like it when people slip thru the cracks and think the system owes it to them to get them out of there.   8)

EITS


----------



## helpup (9 Apr 2009)

EITS 
        No worries, and I agree with the bit about people think the system owes it to them.  In a way it does but alot of the onus must fall onto the individual to be aware of his pay, situation and bring to light any problems or seek to address them as soon as possible.  By and large the system works but it's size does mean problems can and will happen.


----------



## CountDC (9 Apr 2009)

as for entitlement - that is a term I sooo love - he is not entitled to the money until the calculations have been done, approved and entered into the system.  Once that is done the system will calculate his pay and he is entitled to receive it on his next pay.  If it doesn't show up into his account on his next pay then he should be able to get a cheque or EFT done by his pay clk. Until then anything that they may choose to issue would be an advance on his pay.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Apr 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So, following that line of thinking, if my pay doesn't go in on the 15th, and I can't make my car payment, my CoC would then say "you should know better than to rely on your pay being in the bank on time to pay your bills".



That's what allotments are for.  Even if your pay doesn't go through, the allotment does.

I see where you're coming from, however, this mbr, being a Cpl and knowing how screwed up this LDA thing was, should have known better.  No different from waiting for a claim to be deposited.  It's not there until it's there.


----------



## CountDC (9 Apr 2009)

uh oh - the dreaded allotments enter the picture.

May not be the answer for car payments.  Sometimes the financing is not through an insitution we can make EFT to (went through that myself).  Even if we can make the transfer your payment date may not correspond to the EFT date (end month) so you may have to pay a hefty penalty to have the payment date changed.  Some used to get around it by setting up an allotment to their bank account but we are not allowed to set it up to the same account your pay is going into. DND is trying to get away as much as possible from doing allotments thus newer rules restricting them are added often - eventually you may not even be able to get an allotment.  Not like the old days when the guys would bring in all their bills and we set up allotments for everything.


----------



## dapaterson (9 Apr 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So, following that line of thinking, if my pay doesn't go in on the 15th, and I can't make my car payment, my CoC would then say "you should know better than to rely on your pay being in the bank on time to pay your bills".
> 
> ???



In the late 90s there was just that situation: pay statements were distributed to Reservists, then the DFT failed to go through (human error) - but the folks still getting cheques instead of DFT got paid (of course, in the middle of the thrust to get people to switch to direct deposit, but that's another story).

And when someone asked for compensation for a few bounced cheques, he was told, basically, that it was his own fault for trusting DND/CF.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Apr 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> uh oh - the dreaded allotments enter the picture.
> 
> May not be the answer for car payments.  Sometimes the financing is not through an insitution we can make EFT to (went through that myself).  Even if we can make the transfer your payment date may not correspond to the EFT date (end month) so you may have to pay a hefty penalty to have the payment date changed.  Some used to get around it by setting up an allotment to their bank account but we are not allowed to set it up to the same account your pay is going into. DND is trying to get away as much as possible from doing allotments thus newer rules restricting them are added often - eventually you may not even be able to get an allotment.  Not like the old days when the guys would bring in all their bills and we set up allotments for everything.



I know.  My car payments right now are twice monthly and do not correspond with the pay periods at all.  However, there is always the option of opening up another bank account and sending the allotment there to ensure you don't spend the money.

If I was a clerk and someone wanted to make allotments for all their bills, I'd advise them to see a financial counselor.  Better they get used to managing their money earlier than later.

But, back on topic: I still have no sympathy for the guy.  But then again, I'm not a very sympathetic person.   ;D


----------



## CountDC (9 Apr 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I know.  My car payments right now are twice monthly and do not correspond with the pay periods at all.  However, there is always the option of opening up another bank account and sending the allotment there to ensure you don't spend the money.


best thing to do - I did it for all my bills, set up equal payment plans and then went online to my bank account and set it to auto pay the bills just in case the ship sailed unexpectedly.

quote author=PMedMoe link=topic=83891/post-832574#msg832574 date=1239302748]
If I was a clerk and someone wanted to make allotments for all their bills, I'd advise them to see a financial counselor.  Better they get used to managing their money earlier than later.
[/quote]
Not a bad idea though you would have to be careful - some people would take offence so you would have to be sure your COC was going to back you.

quote author=PMedMoe link=topic=83891/post-832574#msg832574 date=1239302748]
But, back on topic: I still have no sympathy for the guy.  But then again, I'm not a very sympathetic person.   ;D
[/quote]
Funny - I have been accused of the same thing - probably because I tend to ask "is anyone going to die? no - then it's not a priority, I'll get to it when I get to it". Of course the odd person will try the "it may be you if it doesn't get done" and then drop it when I point out that if I die then it will take even longer to get done as there is no one else to do it.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Apr 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> If I was a clerk and someone wanted to make allotments for all their bills, I'd advise them to see a financial counselor.  Better they get used to managing their money earlier than later.





			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea though you would have to be careful - some people would take offence so you would have to be sure your COC was going to back you.



Since I'm not a clerk, no worries there.  However, if the COC wasn't going to back me, I'd ask to be excused from SISIP briefings and from having to DAG through them as well.


----------



## combatbuddha (13 Apr 2009)

nextinline2411 said:
			
		

> I also found this located in the CANFORGEN :
> 
> 205.33(6) (Start and End Dates) Entitlement to Land Duty Allowance starts on the day on which the member reports for duty and ends on the earliest day on which the member:
> 
> ...



Remember currently it's not the fact that one is one PCat or TCat, it is the MEL that is assigned to it, as stated in sub-para b in the quoted post. There are hundreds of serving members on both TCat and PCats that do not exclude them from deploying operationally. The hiccup right now is that apparently the med staff is not allowed to put "unfit field" on a chit or category. They now have to say "unfit military operational enviornment." The barrack block lawyers are having a field day with this as their chits say "unfit military operational enviornment" and NOT "unfit field", so they think they are entitled according to the wording in the CANFORGEN. Most reasonable people can realize the meaning and intent, however some of the other "keeners" keep finding a way to tweek the system. Thank goodness we have them to keep us on our toes... :
Still waiting for mine. Dang TCat is holding me up........


----------



## shantzy (14 Apr 2009)

Thankyou combatbuddha for the update...much appreciataed!


----------



## RetiredRoyal (17 Apr 2009)

how far back to they go to calculate your base rate for this? I did 5 yrs in 1 rcr while they were in london..if I get posted to 427 in pet, do those 5 yrs count to my points?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (17 Apr 2009)

If your talking LDA, they calculate points from the first time you were in a field unit.  For me Dec of 97.


----------



## RetiredRoyal (18 Apr 2009)

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> If your talking LDA, they calculate points from the first time you were in a field unit.  For me Dec of 97.



yep, sorry, that's what i meant. 1 RCR london is not on the list as they are now in pet. Not sure if they have the same uic or not, guess i can check my 490 and compare.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (18 Apr 2009)

I am not a clerk so can't say for sure but I don't see why RCR London or PPCLI Calgary would not count.  Reg Force field unit.


----------



## combatbuddha (23 May 2009)

Does anyone know if the long awaited decision from higher has been made? I am currently away from work and can't check on things......Something was supposed to come down the pipe mid Mayish......


----------



## Kokanee (11 Jul 2009)

combatbuddha,

I was injured on the last roto overseas, will be going to TCAT this August. I've been told by my orderly room that my LDA will be halted, so I guess this has not been figured out yet.


----------



## PuckChaser (11 Jul 2009)

Friend of mine just got retained without restriction after being on a PCAT since 2002. After he won his right to stay in the CF, he received all of his LDA points and subsequently the backpay to 1 Apr 07. I'm not sure how he accomplished that, but I won't argue the free beer he's buying.


----------



## Kokanee (20 Oct 2009)

Has anyone seen any movement on this issue? I have yet to find anyone who can show me paperwork/policy that states those on TCAT will have their field pay withheld.

I didn't mind this at first, but after many month's this is starting to add up to a big chunk of change which could be earning me interest in my savings account.


----------



## SeanNewman (28 Jan 2010)

Just an update for anyone still asking questions on this, below is the very useful (and official) webpate for all matters LDA.

It has the original list of what units were included, as well as updates of other units that have been added to the list:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/all-ind/mnd-pce/index-eng.asp


----------



## TN2IC (5 Feb 2010)

I seen the back dating listing more refer to Reg Force units.. but does the schools in Gagetown get it? example LFAATC Gagetown (L33) I spent a good amount of time in the field there, or I was pushing a broom.  ;D

I miss T10 still.. 

Your thoughts,
Regards,
TN2IC


----------



## vonGarvin (5 Feb 2010)

You were pushing a broom.  Schools don't get LDA


Now, if you were a base MP riding doughnut shotgun for a few speed traps, etc, then LDA would be all yours.


----------



## armyvern (5 Feb 2010)

Yeah,

I noticed the schools were still getting shafted in the updated listing; you'd think someone would have sorted that situation out by now.


----------



## medicineman (5 Feb 2010)

It's funny how alot the people that actually spend field time in the field in Gagetown don't qualify for LDA...if it makes sense, we do the opposite :.

MM


----------



## vonGarvin (5 Feb 2010)

True story:
Once upon a time, in the field in Gagetown, some troops were found with narcotics.  The Military Police (LDA unit) were called by the School (Non-LDA unit) to come to Blissville or Petersville or whereeverville to conduct the on-scene investigation.  The MPs replied that they wouldn't be able to come to the field.  

Now, I know that it's not "field pay", but...


----------



## armyvern (5 Feb 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> True story:
> Once upon a time, in the field in Gagetown, some troops were found with narcotics.  The Military Police (LDA unit) were called by the School (Non-LDA unit) to come to Blissville or Petersville or whereeverville to conduct the on-scene investigation.  The MPs replied that they wouldn't be able to come to the field.
> 
> Now, I know that it's not "field pay", but... the current situation is pure bullshit.



There; fixed that for you.


----------



## vonGarvin (5 Feb 2010)

:rofl:

Thanks, Vern.  I guess it _is_ true that you women can read minds ;D


----------



## Michael OLeary (5 Feb 2010)

I keep seeing that abbreviation and wondering why we need to backdate "Leadership in a Diverse Army".


----------



## vonGarvin (5 Feb 2010)

Another true story:
Once upon a time, the members of the Infantry School were scheduled by the base clothing people for their turn of the mass issue of the CADPAT raingear.  On the date in question, the majority of members of that non-LDA unit were unable to make their school appointed time.  Why?  They were all in the field.


----------



## Jammer (5 Feb 2010)

Twenty four posns (Sig Op Trg), have been identified in CFSCE...the Army has bought into it but the problem is selling it to the Treasury Board.


----------



## armyvern (5 Feb 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Another true story:
> Once upon a time, the members of the Infantry School were scheduled by the base clothing people for their turn of the mass issue of the CADPAT raingear.  On the date in question, the majority of members of that non-LDA unit were unable to make their school appointed time.  Why?  They were all in the field... where they really could have used that new raingear & the FDA too!



There; fixed that one for you too. Would you just hurry up & get a grip on yourself already Sir?


----------



## vonGarvin (5 Feb 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> There; fixed that one for you too. Would you just hurry up & get a grip on yourself already Sir?


I'd rather just let others get a grip on me, it's much more....er...wait a minute.  This is a PM, right?   >


----------



## ERIK2RCR (15 Apr 2010)

Situation- Prior to starting parental leave in Nov 09 , I was briefed by the MATA/PATA clerk. She informed me that a recent  CANFORGEN stated that pers going on LWOP would be keeping their LDA. She stated in the briefing that currently there was no way to enter the LDA into the LWOP pay system, however I would be able to collect it retroactively upon my return to work. I said that my plan would be to use the retro LDA to pay my pension arrears when I got back. The MATA/PATA clerk said that it was definitely an option. 

My return to work day is now 01 May 10, and the MATA/PATA clerk has informed me that she was in fact wrong, and I will not be entitled to retroactive LDA. 

Any thoughts on a course of action? 

To answer the question on most of your minds, no i did not save any extra money to pay back my pension, I thought that a pay briefing would be based on fact.


----------



## meni0n (16 Apr 2010)

From CBI 205.33

205.33(6) (Start and End Dates) Entitlement to Land Duty Allowance starts on the day on which the member reports for duty and ends on the earliest day on which the member:
(a) departs the unit as defined in CBI 205.015 (Interpretation);
(b) is assigned a permanent medical category with medical employment limitation indicating unfit field environment;
(c) begins retirement leave;
(d) is posted to the Service Personnel Holding List;
(e) sick leave is extended for more than 180
(f) is subject to paragraph 3, attach posted in excess of 6 months.

And for (a) at 205.015

“departs the unit” means the date on which a
member reports for duty for the last time at the
losing unit before undertaking the move to report
for duty at the gaining unit irrespective of the
change of strength date. (date de départ)

I don`t see anything about LWOP or parental/maternal leave. You can ask the clerk to show you where it is written that
you`re not entitled to it.


----------



## Pusser (16 Apr 2010)

Leave without pay is leave WITHOUT pay.  LDA is pay.  Is this really that difficult to understand?

The clerk was out to lunch and if she really said that, she needs a good stern talking to by her supervisor.


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## BlueJingo (17 Apr 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Leave without pay is leave WITHOUT pay.  LDA is pay.  Is this really that difficult to understand?



Yes you are right about LWOP being that, GUNNER2RCR should be rec'd Parental Allowance. His Leave pass, just like mine was Parental Leave... 

16.27 – PARENTAL LEAVE
(2) (Definition) In this article, “parental leave” *means a period of leave without pay and allowances* granted to an officer or non-commissioned member for parental or paternity purposes relating to one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted. 

I have yet to find the CANFORGEN that says that it's entitled under LWOP.


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## armyvern (17 Apr 2010)

Jingo said:
			
		

> I have yet to find the CANFORGEN that says that it's entitled under LWOP.



I suspect that the clerk may have misread the CANFORGEN. As set out below, the details of who "earned LDA points" while posted where. Because this member "had not left the Unit" (and was on LWOP) - he would still continue to earn/accumulate LDA points for the time period of his leave. But not be "paid LDA" for that LWOP.


----------



## PMedMoe (17 Apr 2010)

Well, that makes sense.  Why should someone get LDA when they're not even working?


----------



## armyvern (17 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, that makes sense.  Why should someone get LDA when they're not even working?



Exactly; Imagine too the revolt at CTC should people at `entitled`Units be found to be receiving LDA for 4 months of LWOP ... while they at CTC continue to be fucked out of receiving a single cent of LDA despite their actually working in the field on an ongoing and routine basis.


----------



## meni0n (18 Apr 2010)

Another way to look at it, when I was on my parental, PLD was factored into my top up pay, and PLD is an allowance. So shouldn't his parental pay be calculated with the LDA factored in?


----------



## PMedMoe (18 Apr 2010)

IMHO, no.

PLD is for living in a certain area.  LDA is for the "inconvenience" of possibly having to go in the field from time to time.

When one is on MATA/PATA leave, they still live in the area.  They don't go in the field.


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## vonGarvin (18 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> IMHO, no.
> 
> PLD is for living in a certain area.  LDA is for the "inconvenience" of possibly having to go in the field from time to time.
> 
> When one is on MATA/PATA leave, they still live in the area.  *They don't go in the field*.


Neither do the base Gagetown MPs, but they get LDA.  I say ALL units should get LDA, less CTC of course, because, I mean, hey, just because our lads spend more time in the training area than the average moose doesn't mean that they should get anything.  I mean, heck, nothing's too good for them, and that's exactly what they are getting, so they should be thankful!  :

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic!)


----------



## PMedMoe (18 Apr 2010)

TV, I hear ya.  The MP Det in _Ottawa_ is an LDA unit.   :


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## meni0n (18 Apr 2010)

Moe, yes but he will not be getting the LDA on his parental, when they calculate it, they would look at what he will make a month with the allowances and then top you up to 93%. LDA is a monthly allowance that one gets by being posted to a field unit and the only way it stops by falling into the categories I posted above.


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## PMedMoe (18 Apr 2010)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Moe, yes but he will not be getting the LDA on his parental, when they calculate it, they would look at what he will make a month with the allowances and then top you up to 93%. LDA is a monthly allowance that one gets by being posted to a field unit and the only way it stops by falling into the categories I posted above.



I understand what LDA is.  You compared it to PLD.  I just posted my opinion of the difference between the two.


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## CountDC (19 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> TV, I hear ya.  The MP Det in _Ottawa_ is an LDA unit.   :



and rightly so - no where else they could spend soooo much time in the field and they certainly meet the definition of field unit  :clown:

“field unit” means a unit, whose primary role is combat manoeuvre and training for operations or combat support and combat service support to the combat manoeuvre units. Canadian Forces personnel in these units can expect, as part of their normal duties, to be exposed to austere environmental and work conditions for extensive periods of time on a regular basis. These units will be equipped with field equipment, vehicles and stores for this role

and I think that may be the basis for rather you will get LDA or PLD while on MATA/PATA.  You will not meet the criteria described above while on leave while the purpose of LDA PLD will still exist. 

The purpose of the Post Living Differential (PLD) allowance is to stabilize the cost of living of CF personnel and their families living in Canada, with respect to differences in cost of living in various parts of the country.


more research to be done.  This site is great for keeping us old clerks on the go.  Everytime something like this comes up I start researching so I can keep on top of things.

edited: and maybe some sobering up.  Must have been drunk when I first posted although I really don't remember having a drink.


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> “field unit” means a unit, whose primary role is combat manoeuvre and training for operations or combat support and combat service support to the combat manoeuvre units. Canadian Forces personnel in these units can expect, as part of their normal duties, to be exposed to austere environmental and work conditions for extensive periods of time on a regular basis. These units will be equipped with field equipment, vehicles and stores for this role



Notice, too, how they clevery worded this to screw the *highly* deserving pers (who actually spend time in the field constantly) at Combat Training Center (Home of the freakin' ARMY!!) out of entitlement to LDA?


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## Pusser (19 Apr 2010)

LDA is not factored in when calculating Top Up.  Nor are any environmental allowances.  Thes allowances are paid for undergoing the conditions associated with a certain type of employment.  If you are on LWOP, you are not being employed in that environment and so there is no entitlement.  PLD and similar allowances  that relate to where you are living are factored into Top Up as you are still living there (presumably).

In order to draw LDA is you are not in a field unit, you have to be in a "designated position."    In order to have a position "designated" it has to be expected that that position will spend at least 90 days per year undergoing those environmental conditions.  The reason the CTC folks don't get it is presumably because they aren't expected to spend 90 days per year in the field.   Incidentally, this is the same methodology used to designate positions for Sea Duty Allowance (SDA).


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> In order to draw LDA is you are not in a field unit, you have to be in a "designated position."    In order to have a position "designated" it has to be expected that that position will spend at least 90 days per year undergoing those environmental conditions.  The reason the CTC folks don't get it is presumably because they aren't expected to spend 90 days per year in the field.   Incidentally, this is the same methodology used to designate positions for Sea Duty Allowance (SDA).



Have you ever been to CTC or employed in it? They spend the requisite number of "days" in the field.

CTC is precluded because they do not directly support "*Operational*" field training or "*Operational*" combat manoeuvres. "Operational" being the disqualifying word. What they do _do_, is go out to the field *constantly* to teach those "field skills and qualifications" *to* all those who will then proceed from CTC *to* those operational Units and operational training centres.

They *only* (and "only" is a very misdleading word in their case) support the TRAINING of ALL hard land force personnel in their trade and enviornmental qualifications prior to those pers going on to those "operational" locations and training facilities. You know 'lil things like patrolling (in the field!), advanced recce (in the field) etc etc. Platoon Comds Course (in the field!!) etc etc etc.


----------



## vonGarvin (19 Apr 2010)

To illustrate Vern's argument using one very specific example from only one of the schools, consider Infantry Officer Development Period 1.1 "Dismounted Platoon Commander".  The course consists of several parts, commonly (and mistakenly) referred to as modules*.  These are:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Weapons
[*]Defensive Operations
[*]Offensive Operations
[*]Patrolling
[*]Full Spectrum Operations
[/list]
For each of the four final parts, candidates can expect to spend at least 10 days straight in the field.  That's 40 days right there.  The staff spend those days out there with them.  The instructors may come into garrison (to do administration, issue warnings, update stuff, etc), but the support staff (radio operators, enemy force, drivers, etc) are out there for the same time.  On a normal year, there are three "periods" in which IODP 1.1 is conducted (Late Winter/Early Spring, Summer and Autum).  For those keeping count, that's 120 days in the field, which is about 80 days more in the field when I was in 3 RCR, over a one-year period.  In fact, in the time prior to my posting (August 2007), I came from the school to 3 RCR, and had spent more time in the field that spring and summer than I did in my entire time in 3 RCR.  Also, those instructors from IODP 1.1 are likely to be tagged as instructors on other courses that hit the field, such as NCM DP 3B (Platoon 2IC course), Urban Operations' Instructor, Advanced Recce Patrolman, etc.

I'm *certain* that all CTC schools are in the same boat, if not worse off.


And that is but one specific course at but one of the schools.  THAT is why there is a sense of bitterness for troops who are posted to any of the CTC schools.


*Modules refer only to the breakdown of the parts of the course for reservists so that they can complete the training over a series of summers, with several limits placed on them, in terms of time, sequence, etc.  It is not uncommon, however, for the Cmdt to "grant" certain modules to regular force candidates who have to cease training for any reason.


----------



## George Wallace (19 Apr 2010)

I understand the bitterness here about the pers at CTC not being given LDA.  Having been in an Independent Tank Sqn and then at the School, I know that we spent a great deal more than 90 days in the field; and we had the equipment and support to do so.

As for the MPs in Ottawa getting LDA, I wonder WTF, as they do not deploy to the Field, they do not have the Vehs to deploy to the Field, nor do they have the support to deploy to the Field; unless someone thinks that a staff car with lights and a credit card are all that you need.  They only way that they could, is if they augmented the Reserve MPs in Ottawa.


----------



## armyvern (19 Apr 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I understand the bitterness here about the pers at CTC not being given LDA.  Having been in an Independant Tanks Sqn and then at the School, I know that we spent a great deal more than 90 days in the field; and we had the equipment and support to do so.
> 
> As for the MPs in Ottawa getting LDA, I wonder WTF, as they do not deploy to the Field, they do not have the Vehs to deploy to the Field, nor do they have the support to deploy to the Field; unless someone thinks that a staff car with lights and a credit card are all that you need.  They only way that they could, is if they augmented the Reserve MPs in Ottawa.



Wow. I google MPs and serving in a field capacity ... and come across this:

http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/afghandocs/SCA%200407.pdf


----------



## George Wallace (19 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Wow. I google MPs and serving in a field capacity ... and come across this:
> 
> http://www3.thestar.com/static/PDF/afghandocs/SCA%200407.pdf



Looks like someone's PowerPoint Presentation Speakers Notes.  If it isn't, then the MPs have a serious problem with communications and staff writting.  13 pages with less than 50 words on average per page.  Disjointed.  Totally incoherent.  Problematic on a whole in direction and presentation.  

What was the 13 pages trying to say?  The MP Trade, officer and NCO, is in a world of hurt?  That is what it looks like to me.


----------



## armyvern (19 Apr 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Looks like someone's PowerPoint Presentation Speakers Notes.  If it isn't, then the MPs have a serious problem with communications and staff writting.  13 pages with less than 50 words on average per page.  Disjointed.  Totally incoherent.  Problematic on a whole in direction and presentation.
> 
> What was the 13 pages trying to say?  The MP Trade, officer and NCO, is in a world of hurt?  That is what it looks like to me.



Disjointed for sure ~ I'm wondering if it's website addy indicates it has been uploaded and saved by the friendly neighbourhood TorStar daily publication ... and, if so, why would that be?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (19 Apr 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What was the 13 pages trying to say?  The MP Trade, officer and NCO, is in a world of hurt?  That is what it looks like to me.



The brief was to Armed Forces Council.  Its intent was to seek a final decision on MP C2 - and it essentially recommended that MPs become their own Level 1, much like the Med branch has now become.


----------



## dapaterson (19 Apr 2010)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> The brief was to Armed Forces Council.  Its intent was to seek a final decision on MP C2 - and it essentially recommended that MPs become their own Level 1, much like the Med branch has now become.



Med is a L2 under Chief of Military Personnel, not a L1.

DND's bloated C2 (at the L1/L2 levels) is in need of pruning, not enlarging - because every L1/L2 GO needs their coterie of flappers.  A 10% trim of NDHQ would free up Reg F PYs sufficient to reconstitute the mortar platoons and have a few hundred PYs left over for other worthy causes.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (19 Apr 2010)

Thanks for the clarification.  Need to get back in the loop, and soon!


----------



## PMedMoe (19 Apr 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for the MPs in Ottawa getting LDA, I wonder WTF, as they do not deploy to the Field, they do not have the Vehs to deploy to the Field, nor do they have the support to deploy to the Field; unless someone thinks that a staff car with lights and a credit card are all that you need.  They only way that they could, is if they augmented the Reserve MPs in Ottawa.



IIRC, they receive it because they are a Det to 2 MP Pl in Pet.


----------



## REDinstaller (19 Apr 2010)

The MPs have also had a brain wave when it comes to which MP Pl covers which area. If you look at the original msg that designated LDA entitled units toward the end it reads 1 MP Pl Det Wainwright, Suffield, Shilo, etc etc. It has the same types of dets for LFCA, LFAA, and SQFT. So now they are all part of 3 large LDA earning Pl's. Makes you wonder who created that bit of sly accounting.


----------



## ubergeek_123 (19 Apr 2010)

Probably not an MP!! Could not hold that one in...

Now back to my lane.


----------



## Pusser (20 Apr 2010)

Just so everyone is clear on the subject, I am not against or in favour of CTC staff receiving LDA.  I have no opinion on the subject, nor do I have any clue about what they do or how long they do it for.  All I was trying to say is that there are criteria that are used for determining entitlement and somebody (not me) at a high enough level in the chain of command has determined that they don't qualify.  In order to gain the entitlement, somebody in the Army has to do some staff work and then build and present the case.  You can't blame the system for not providing if no one tells the system it needs to do so.  A case in point is the Army's rain gear.  Part of the reason the Army wore crap for years is because no one submitted a UCR (or enough of them).  Folks just went out and bought American stuff instead.


----------



## garb811 (20 Apr 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> IIRC, they receive it because they are a Det to 2 MP Pl in Pet.


To clarify, MP posted to CFSU(O) MP Coy do not receive LDA, this would probably refer to MP posted to the Reserve MP Pl in Ottawa as RFC.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Apr 2010)

garb811 said:
			
		

> To clarify, MP posted to CFSU(O) MP Coy do not receive LDA, this would probably refer to MP posted to the Reserve MP Pl in Ottawa as RFC.



I thought there were no Reserve units getting LDA.   ???

I know Reg F guys posted to Res units who go in the field all the time and none of them get monthly LDA.

From Wikipedia (yeah, yeah, I know   : ):



> 2 Military Police Unit (2 MPU) is a unit of the Canadian Forces. It is essentially the Army Military Police of Ontario (this does not include Canadian Forces Support Unit (Ottawa)).



and



> Unit Headquarters - Toronto, Ontario (Total Force)
> 2 Military Police Platoon - Petawawa, Ontario (Regular Force)
> 31 Military Police Platoon - London, Ontario (Reserve Force)
> Detachment Kingston, Ontario (Reserve Force)
> ...



So maybe no MPs in Ottawa are getting LDA.


----------



## ERIK2RCR (23 Apr 2010)

To those with insight on the above mentioned, thanks a bunch. To the rest who turned it into a bitch session, I feel your pain. Time to lock this one up, we all know that regardless of who screwed up, the Army always wins.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Apr 2010)

2 MP Unit is a unit.  All the rest are dets of the unit.  That is, there is one MOO and thus oen CFOO for the whole organization.  Therefore, since 2 MP Unit is embodied in the Regular Force, all its dets are Regular Force - regardless of the composition of the individual dets.


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> 2 MP Unit is a unit.  All the rest are dets of the unit.  That is, there is one MOO and thus oen CFOO for the whole organization.  Therefore, since 2 MP Unit is embodied in the Regular Force, all its dets are Regular Force - regardless of the composition of the individual dets.



Please don't tell me we have reservists receiving LDA when there are Reg F people at Reserve units not receiving it, due to the fact they are posted to a Res unit (that goes into the field regularly).

Note:  I have no issues with full-time reservists receiving LDA.


----------



## cujo0031 (20 Oct 2010)

I find the administration of LDA to the medical trades quite arbitrary. I'm an officer Posted to a CF Health Services Centre = NO LDA, but my colleges (Same MOC) posted to a clinic at a Field Amb receives their "not so rightfully deserved" LDA. While we do the same job, work in the same environment "comfortable, air conditioned, state of the art" clinic, one officer gets LDA but the other doesn't. I sincerely hope someone looks into this and realizes officers at either Field Ambulances or CF Health Services centers really DON'T deserve LDA as we are not serving the purpose of what the allowance is designed for.


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## cujo0031 (20 Oct 2010)

I find the administration of LDA to the medical trades quite arbitrary. I'm an officer Posted to a CF Health Services Centre = NO LDA, but my colleges (Same MOC) posted to a clinic at a Field Amb receives their "not so rightfully deserved" LDA. While we do the same job, work in the same environment "comfortable, air conditioned, state of the art" clinic, one officer gets LDA but the other doesn't. I sincerely hope someone looks into this and realizes officers at either Field Ambulances or CF Health Services centers really DON'T deserve LDA as we are not serving the purpose of what the allowance is designed for.


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## cujo0031 (20 Oct 2010)

Can anyone believe it, 1 Canadian Field Hospital is a unit receiving LDA!!!!

As far as I know, Specialist MOs (specialist MOs are posted to 1 Canadian Field Hospital) at the rank of Maj. or above who are allowed to moonlight and have a civilian practice (they call it consolidation of clinical skills) while working for the 1 Canadian Field Hospital part-time are receiving LDA! WOW, does anyone know how much Specialist MOs make!! Plus they receive an allowance that clearly are not designed for their operational context!

As an aside, when I was an intern at the hospital, a Maj. MO (internal medicine Specialist) was at the civi. hospital 3 days a week, and I'm assuming he reserved his remaining 2 days of the week to work at his Unit. Not only do these specialist MOs get LDA, they get to pick their postings as they are "in full control" of where they would like to establish their Civi practice while as a mbr of the 1 Cdn Field Hospital.

Wow, I am truly amazed at the administration of LDA! I'm from an army base, and I see the ill and injured coming in through sick parade every morning, working their asses off in the field, those are the ones that should be receiving LDA!


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## armyvern (20 Oct 2010)

cujo0031 said:
			
		

> Wow, I am truly amazed at the administration of LDA! I'm from an army base, and I see the ill and injured coming in through sick parade every morning, working their asses off in the field, those are the ones that should be receiving LDA!



Yep, and do you see those ill & injured waiting months to get an appointment with an MO too because those MOs are too busy 2, 3 sometimes 4 days a week "consolidating their clinical skills downtown" while being paid 24/7 (and apprently LDA while they are at it) by the CF to *primarily serve* CF patients? 

Their "primary" role and job serving the CF went out the door long ago thanks to some fancy footwork regarding that 'lil consolidation bit ... 

When my troops need to wait months to see an MO because their knee is sore and there's only one MO a day avail at the BHosp while the others "consolidate skills" downtown ... there's a major disconnect in CF roles & responsibilities to it's soldiers and CF priorities IMHO.


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## Journeyman (20 Oct 2010)

Yep, a waste of money -- for _whatever_ reason, CF doctors have a reputation for medical skills ending at Cepacol.

I'd go to a Physician's Assistant-qualified WO in a heartbeat before a CF doctor.


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## cujo0031 (21 Oct 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yep, and do you see those ill & injured waiting months to get an appointment with an MO too because those MOs are too busy 2, 3 sometimes 4 days a week "consolidating their clinical skills downtown" while being paid 24/7 (and apprently LDA while they are at it) by the CF to *primarily serve* CF patients?
> 
> Their "primary" role and job serving the CF went out the door long ago thanks to some fancy footwork regarding that 'lil consolidation bit ...
> 
> When my troops need to wait months to see an MO because their knee is sore and there's only one MO a day avail at the BHosp while the others "consolidate skills" downtown ... there's a major disconnect in CF roles & responsibilities to it's soldiers and CF priorities IMHO.



Well I admire your objectivity. I would have to say, I'm an officer at the CDU (CF Health Services Center, not a field Hospital, therefore no LDA), probably the only time we see the field is during IBTS/MLOC. I agree with you that we DO NOT fall under the operational context of a field unit. I agree with you further when you say there is a major disconnect in understanding the operational requirements of the average mbr posted to a unit on my base. We should be soldiers/officers first and Medical Professionals second, not the other way around. We are here as a support role, therefore we must understand the context of our mbr's jobs.


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## armyvern (21 Oct 2010)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Yep, a waste of money -- for _whatever_ reason, CF doctors have a reputation for medical skills ending at Cepacol.
> 
> I'd go to a Physician's Assistant-qualified WO in a heartbeat before a CF doctor.



Well, I'd agree with you on that point, but the problem is ... my troops need to wait months to see an MO in order to get referred to appropriate specialist downtown.

It's something I go through every year. I need to see a civ specialist (for my head ;D) "not less than once per year" (the type of tumor that developped in my ear after it's injury has a high reccurance rate) which is recorded in my medical docs and as part of my PCat ... a civ specialist that it already takes months to get in to see. But before I can go there I have to wait months to get in to see an MO to get that official permission referral ... I wait 3 or 4 months for THAT appointment and then get the referral and THEN get to book the specialist appointment downtown where I have to wait months to get in to see. It has taken me up to a year wait for that. That puts me over my required once per year "minimum" period ... I'm also supposed to have an MRI once per year, but did you know the average wait-time in this province is well over 12 months for that? Not to mention that I've been posted 3 times in 3.5 years into different geographical areas, so the MO appointments, specialist appointments and MRI keep getting cancelled because by the time they get space to put me in, I've already been posetd away for months. This spring, I got a nasty email from 2 bases previous to this one about "having missed an MRI appointment" that they had scheduled for me ... that finally was booked by the civ hosp (who notified me at an addy I hadn't lived at for 12 months due to being posted to another province & thus I never did receive the letter notification of that MRI) saying they would take disciplinary action next time I failed to show for a civilian specialist appointment without notifying them that I would miss it or contacting the civ hospital without their required notice time to cancel. Go figure.   ???

I always tell them, may as well book my appointment to see the MO again for the day after my specialist appoint so that I can book the next years appointment that very day after ... that way, my 10 or 11 month wait to see that civ specialist will be within that medically required once per year.

At least two bases have flat out refused to do that for me ... and insist that I can not make the re-booking for an MO appointment until after I have seen the specialist ... so the day after I do, then wait three months to see the MO, then re-book the civvy, wait months to see them ... and am not complying with the requirements of the PCat.

The way I figure it, 3 months of that wait & delay is totally preventable ... if MOs were actually avail at their primary workplace for the majority of their paid CF work time and not downtown 3 or 4 days a week not taking appointments from CF members.


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## Journeyman (21 Oct 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ... if MOs were actually avail at their primary workplace for the majority of their paid CF work time


Maybe if those poor, impoverished MOs got LDA.......  :


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## Gunner98 (21 Oct 2010)

cujo0031 said:
			
		

> Can anyone believe it, 1 Canadian Field Hospital is a unit receiving LDA!!!!
> 
> As far as I know, Specialist MOs (specialist MOs are posted to 1 Canadian Field Hospital) at the rank of Maj. or above who are allowed to moonlight and have a civilian practice (they call it consolidation of clinical skills) while working for the 1 Canadian Field Hospital part-time are receiving LDA! WOW, does anyone know how much Specialist MOs make!! Plus they receive an allowance that clearly are not designed for their operational context!
> 
> ...



Thanks for joining the party so late and wandering far from your lane.  The LDA decision was made several years ago and does not apply to Specialist MOs.

Are you currently posted at 1 Cdn Fd Hosp or Petawawa, I can't tell from your incomplete profile?  Most of your info is not accurate - check your sources!  Many personnel (all trades) in 1 Cdn Fd Hosp spend as much time in Wainwright or California or Texas as the rest of the Army.  "As far as I know" (and I do have my sources to verify) the info on the Specialists MOs is not accurate and poorly represented by your silly rant.  

That Specialist MO belongs to 1 Cdn Fd Hosp, so what unit do you think he works in those other 2 days per week?  He does not commute from Toronto or Vancouver to Petawawa the other days of the week.  When he sees military patients he cannot bill provincial health insurance and there are not enough of them to fill his days.   Do you want our trauma surgeons working in Pembroke General Hospital or the Base Clinic in Dundurn or at Sunnybrook or Vancouver Trauma Centres.  Not many gun shot wounds or blast trauma cases in Renfrew County or Dundurn, so how would they stay ready for the necessary trauma surgery in KAF! 

They do not moonlight, they in fact hold in most cases, chain of command approved civilian, academic positions and act as department heads in university teach hospitals located with major trauma centres. 

So what is your point - the sawbones saving soldiers' lives in KAF shouldn't be saving civilians' lives to stay current in his medical competencies.  He should be in a Base clinic handing out aspirin and band-aids!

When you say you were an "intern" - was that as a medical resident, a high school student or with the janitor? 

Vern I will PM you soon, I think I can help.


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## captloadie (21 Oct 2010)

I fully agree with the above post, and further, if we didn't allow CF MOs to moonlight keep up their skills in acivilian environment, how many would stick around? We always hear about the pilot shortage, but we'll alway shave people joining to fly our cool airplanes. How do you entice MOs to join, other than offering them some way to recoop the costs they have incurred for their education?


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## armyvern (21 Oct 2010)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I fully agree with the above post, and further, if we didn't allow CF MOs to moonlight keep up their skills in acivilian environment, how many would stick around? We always hear about the pilot shortage, but we'll alway shave people joining to fly our cool airplanes. How do you entice MOs to join, other than offering them some way to recoop the costs they have incurred for their education?



I'll not comment on our MO specialists and what they do; they are different. But when our other MOs are spending more days at civ hospitals "maintaining skillsets" then at base clinics serving CF patients, I'd argue that equates to far more than a little "moonlighting". So, if we are going to continue to "pay" them to work for the CF only 2 days a week ... they may as well be civilians and we may as well be issued civilian provincial health cards and start "waiting 3 months to see a doc downtown" to get a referral to see a specialist. That'd save tonnes of money. My wait time is the same, and I'll probably see the same guy I would have seen at the BHosp at that civ hospital ... only the CF isn't paying him a salary anymore to work 2 days a week for us. 

Then, put that saved money towards hiring contracted civy "trauma" docs, nurses and GP MOs to deploy; we're doing a lot of that already anyway ... and eerily - I think it would be the same pool that we are currently paying year round now.

Man sick parade with PAs and medics, that's who is there working sick parades anyway. I have full faith in them and their training.


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## dangerboy (21 Oct 2010)

There are lots of people in the situation you mentioned.  It would be (in my opinion) an administrative nightmare for the clerks to try and figure out if every position in a unit designated to receive LDA should be entitled to it.  Is the system perfect ? No, I am more concerned about the fact that certain organization currently do not receive LDA (the training centres) than that so and so in a unit receives it but never sees the field.


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## CombatDoc (28 Oct 2010)

ArmyVern, you clearly have an axe to grind for whatever reason.  However, your recent posts only display your ignorance of our current military medical system.   Where do I start?  

To begin with, your assertion that "when our other  MOs are spending more days at civ hospitals "maintaining skillsets" then at base clinics serving CF patients" is entirely false.  The current mandated proportion of time that GDMO's can spend at civ hospitals for Maintenance of Clinical Skills is 20% - i.e. one day per work week or equivalent (e.g. 1 month in ER every 5 months).  The other 4 days should be spent at the clinic, training, etc.  The veracity of your comments that MOs are spending two, three or even four days a week "downtown" are, quite frankly, hard to believe.  Feel free to PM me with specifics, but I am sceptical of your commentary.

I"ve known many excellent MOs, as well as some who are not so excellent.  However, you paint with a broad brush all military docs as being of marginal competence.  Do you realize that the same folks who save lives in Afghanistan are the same folks seeing sick parade at base clinics and MIRs?  Your faith in PAs and Med Techs is laudable, but their scope of practice is significantly less than the MO with whom they discuss their cases.

Finally, you speak of having to wait 3-4 months for an appointment to see an MO in order to make a civ specialist appointment for your head tumour, as well as over a year to get an MRI.  I don't know where you are located, but I am able to routinely obtain MRIs in less than a month and in some cases within 2 weeks.  Specialist appointments are routinely arranged within 1-2 months, compared to 6-12 months in the civilian sector.   Not sure if this is a Res F or Reg F issue, but again, feel free to PM me.

Cheers.


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## armyvern (28 Oct 2010)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> ArmyVern, you clearly have an axe to grind for whatever reason.  However, your recent posts only display your ignorance of our current military medical system.   Where do I start?
> 
> To begin with, your assertion that "when our other  MOs are spending more days at civ hospitals "maintaining skillsets" then at base clinics serving CF patients" is entirely false.  The current mandated proportion of time that GDMO's can spend at civ hospitals for Maintenance of Clinical Skills is 20% - i.e. one day per work week or equivalent (e.g. 1 month in ER every 5 months).  The other 4 days should be spent at the clinic, training, etc.  The veracity of your comments that MOs are spending two, three or even four days a week "downtown" are, quite frankly, hard to believe.  Feel free to PM me with specifics, but I am sceptical of your commentary.
> 
> ...



Please, point out to me where I called any Doc incompetant?? Where have you pulled that out of? Perhaps my querying why certain base hosp were making me see an MO to get an appt with a specialist and thus making my wait even longer when the PCat that same medical system put me on clearly states: *Requires medical follow up with civilian specialist not less than once every year.*.

As for my wait for MRI ... I have experienced this at 4 different bases in 3 provinces. Ont, NB, and PEI. Each year.

To see the specialist ... same three provinces. Each year.

The wait for the MO appt ... the same base where the Comd staff had ordered us all to record all appt stats as people were moving up 15 places on the waiting lists after months of waiting ... and as furthered to higher HQ.

You want to call me out on that? If so, I will PM you my SN and you can pull me up on your system and check it out for yourself.

Nuff said.


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## Armymedic (28 Oct 2010)

Wow,
Come to a thread about LDA and we have a bitchfest about the CF medical system. 

cujo0031, you are way out of your lane. You are talking crap, and you need to suck it back.

On other notes:
First, GDMOs do/should not moonlight, they are working outside CF facilites to maintain thier competancy, as directed by the medical branch. If they are out of the office (during working hours, and not on leave) collecting pay from the provinvial government; then they are commiting fraud, and should be reported. If they are working nights and weekends "off duty", then that is allowed. We PAs, nurses, pharmacists, and physios all can do tha same thing.

As Simian pointed out, those specialist MOs are not mooonlighting either. They work in civilian facilities paid by DND and allowed to work in in that specific spot becuase of an MOU which gives them privledges in those hospitals. 

If on your base, people are waiting months to see an MO under the current CDU model, then there is something wrong on your base;either its under-staffed or incorrectly structured.

Vern, 
It seems that you are getting a raw deal. Albiet ENT is one of the most understaffed specialty with some of the longest wait times. As you know it is not unique to Ont. As for your MRI, that is just screwed. Here in Petawawa, thanks to availablitly of scanners on Quebec side, there are guys getting MRIs done in 2-4 weeks.


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## Armymedic (28 Oct 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> if MOs were actually avail at their primary workplace for the majority of their paid CF work time and not downtown 3 or 4 days a week not taking appointments from CF members.



Vern, I am sypathetic of your situation, and agree its not right.

But that comment, and a smiliar one you made in an earlier post, is out of line.


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## armyvern (29 Oct 2010)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Vern, I am sypathetic of your situation, and agree its not right.
> 
> But that comment, and a smiliar one you made in an earlier post, is out of line.



You may not like to hear it, but at that time, at that base, that is how it was (a mere 18 months ago). It wasn not only I who didn not like it. It was everyone who was placed on wait lists for appointments ... then called months later when they still had not recd one to find they had only moved up 10 or 15 spots - some had even slid down the list.  That is also why we were ordered to start recording all this and to report up to our Comd who sent further to have the sit adressed. This was normal, not an exception. This was staff and students sitting in MIRs for hours waiting to get seen each and every day. Being sent away for lunch and told to come back after (even the next day) to see someone ... Not nice to hear, but it happened. 

Glad to see that perhaps some rules regarding that and things may be looking up. Maybe this year, I will actually get that annual MRI & spec appt as my PCat says.


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 Oct 2010)

Is it possible for a member to get both with the new LDA in effect?


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## aesop081 (29 Oct 2010)

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> Is it possible for a member to get both with the new LDA in effect?



Can't see why you couldn't. We draw both TD and aircrew allowance at the same time.


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## Biohazardxj (29 Oct 2010)

Yes you can get both LDA and Per Diem  at the same time.  However, you cannot get CLDA and Per Diem for the same day.


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## Armymedic (29 Oct 2010)

Vern, 
I understand. The situation below is very unacceptable where in our CF health care system, people are made to wait hours and days, and not returned to their workplace so that they may be productive. It is good the base CoC is aware and hopefully working to rectify it. Some medical unit persons (and not all are doctors, PAs, nurses, capiche?) mistakenly think that because the civilian facilities have wait times, then it is acceptable for CF facilities to have wait times as well. Unfortunately, we are not a "public" system. Every moment you, or your personnel are sitting at the CDU is time they are not doing what they are being paid to do. 

My issue with what you said is that unless you have evidence as to where those MOs actually are and why, then your statement I quoted is slander, and something you would not put up with if it were the role is reversed.


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## Franko (30 Oct 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You may not like to hear it, but at that time, at that base, that is how it was (a mere 18 months ago). It wasn not only I who didn not like it. It was everyone who was placed on wait lists for appointments ... then called months later when they still had not recd one to find they had only moved up 10 or 15 spots - some had even slid down the list.  That is also why we were ordered to start recording all this and to report up to our Comd who sent further to have the sit adressed. This was normal, not an exception. This was staff and students sitting in MIRs for hours waiting to get seen each and every day. Being sent away for lunch and told to come back after (even the next day) to see someone ... Not nice to hear, but it happened.
> 
> Glad to see that perhaps some rules regarding that and things may be looking up. Maybe this year, I will actually get that annual MRI & spec appt as my PCat says.



That problem still exists. I've had many troops go in for their appointed time and be told that their appointment was either moved to the right or just plainly canceled. It was noted and pushed to higher as ordered.

I actually had one fella report to me that he does not require to be fit dental prior to release according to a Dent O. Funny thing is he's had 4 appointments either shifted or canceled in the past year for a check up/ release dental. He hadn't seen a dentist in over 3 years due to deployments. 

Regards


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Oct 2010)

Thank you for the replies.


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## armyvern (31 Oct 2010)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Vern,
> My issue with what you said is that unless you have evidence as to where those MOs actually are and why, then your statement I quoted is slander, and something you would not put up with if it were the role is reversed.



That *was the reason* given by the BHosp to explain the wait times and the lack of our troops moving up the waiting list after months - that their mil staff was working at skill-maintenance & that they had 1 mil doc each afternoon to handle appts - and that is exactly why our B Comd Staff ordered us (in O Gps & in email) supervisors to begin calling the Hosp weekly to check in on waiting list #s, and to record their movement/lack-of on that list,  for each of our pers 'waiting' and to report it up to them ... so they could have it addressed on the national level. That same hosp then contracted civ nurses etc to come in to help clear backlog due to mil staff absences.


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## ArmyRick (31 Oct 2010)

I see we have alot of medical stuff on a field pay thread, mods, can we split this?

I was on TCAT once and I think I might have gotten lucky. My MRI was scheduled for like 6 in the evening so i was in within 4 weeks, not too bad a waiting time.

As far the medical system, I think the medical system in Ontario is far below the par for what it should be. Then you have to consider in the case of DND, the ontario medical system gets paid for each patient and treatment.


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## Armymedic (31 Oct 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That *was the reason* given by the BHosp to explain the wait times and the lack of our troops moving up the waiting list after months - that their mil staff was working at skill-maintenance & that they had 1 mil doc each afternoon to handle appts



Then that is an organizational problem specific to your site, and not the fault of the MOs who are working at that clinic. The CDU model includes 3 doctors, plus PAs and NPs for patient care, regardless if those clinicians are military or civilian.

Other locations with the same organizational structure and similar patient numbers do not have to problems your base is experiencing.


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## Brick Top (11 Dec 2010)

We've just been briefed that LDA will be phased out, possibly as soon as next fiscal, and that the CF are re-instating FOA.  Has anyone else heard such rumblings?


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2010)

The CF never got rid of FOA.


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## Brick Top (11 Dec 2010)

Sorry.  To clarify, I was referring to the monthly allowance currently in place.


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## PuckChaser (11 Dec 2010)

Brick Top said:
			
		

> Sorry.  To clarify, I was referring to the monthly allowance currently in place.



Maybe the CF will finally see how many people they were paying to stay in garrison....


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## George Wallace (11 Dec 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Maybe the CF will finally see how many people they were paying to stay in garrison....




.....Or found it to confusing paying LDA and Deploying them overseas and wondering if they were to be Tax Free or Not Tax Free and what level they were at in Out of Country time and ............. RMS clerks heads exploding as there were no longer Fin Clerks to do these things......"What do you mean your Claim wasn't Section 34'd before the end of last Fiscal Year?"    >




			
				Brick Top said:
			
		

> We've just been briefed that LDA will be phased out, possibly as soon as next fiscal, and that the CF are re-instating FOA.  Has anyone else heard such rumblings?



This is the first I have heard about this.


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## PuckChaser (11 Dec 2010)

Too true, even doing the points calculations to get LDA rolling was a headache.

Great thing to do if its true though, drop a rumour right near Christmas that troops are going to be losing a piece of their paycheque, especially during some tougher economic times. At least the folks in CTC Gagetown who spend months in the field a year with just CLDA won't feel left out anymore.


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## vonGarvin (11 Dec 2010)

RUMINT:
One possibility is to eliminate LDA and instead go with CLDA.  Oddly enough, if they did that, the troops in CTC would earn more than those in field units.


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## PuckChaser (11 Dec 2010)

Doesn't CTC already get CLDA? I thought if you weren't entitled to LDA you still go CLDA.


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## vonGarvin (11 Dec 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Doesn't CTC already get CLDA? I thought if you weren't entitled to LDA you still go CLDA.


Re-read my post.  At no time did I even infer that CTC doesn't get CLDA. I only mentioned is that they may eliminate LDA and just go with CLDA.  So, the units would stop getting LDA, and the troops would have to earn their CLDA, which they currently do at the schools, and those at the schools will then be getting more because they are in the field more often than any unit out there.


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## PuckChaser (11 Dec 2010)

Seen, thanks!


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## vonGarvin (11 Dec 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Seen, thanks!


No probs.  And remember, this is only RUMINT from the water cooler.  There are other rumours, of course, but this rumour sounds similar to the other rumour mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## Wookilar (14 Dec 2010)

A "comprehensive policy review" was launched by the CLS end-Oct. Decision brief was to be presented to Army Council 22 Nov-ish. Army recommendations to CMP in Jan '11.

All unit Adjt's should have a copy of the CLS Planning Directive (and maybe Ops O's).

Wook


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## override (18 Dec 2010)

Seeing as the last post is 5 days old and the importance of this news to my troops should it prove to be true, I was wondering if anyone heard anything from their Unit...

In my unit, neither my CoC nor my C Clrk have heard of this "rumor".

Can somebody confirm what was supposedly passed down to unit Ops or Adjt's?


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## dogger1936 (12 Jan 2011)

Our SSM passed it on today. Honestly  I hate losing the money but am glad to see it go.....how many people used it to argue they couldnt afford to go to posting X? I've seen it too much. Apparently sea pay is going as well.


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## 63 Delta (21 Jan 2015)

This seems to be the only LDA thread remaining so Ill ask this here.

Do personnel posted to 450 Sqn receive LDA? Thanks.


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## PMedMoe (21 Jan 2015)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> This seems to be the only LDA thread remaining so Ill ask this here.
> 
> Do personnel posted to 450 Sqn receive LDA? Thanks.



List of units (probably outdated and most of the links are broken) at reply #95 on page 4.


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## evmaclennan (19 May 2015)

Hey guys. 

first off let me apologize if this has already been answered multiple times but I cant seem to find the answer anywhere. I just completed my 404's course and one of the instructors was telling me his son gets field pay/ LDA due to being posted to an operational base, he eluded that the added pay was on every cheque regardless of being in the field or not. the only thing I could find was this and its semi-confusing. Any ways to find out which bases and or units will have this? I'm an weapons tech apprentice and I've been told I can only goto Pet, Gagetown, Valcartier and Edmonton. 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-205-officer-ncm-allowance-rates.page

any one care to explain it in simple terms for me?

Thanks in advance


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## dapaterson (19 May 2015)

Simple version: It depends on the unit, not the base.  So, for weapons techs, a tech posted to 3 CDSG Tech Services would not receive LDA.  A tech posted to 1 Svc Bn would receive LDA.


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## Scoobie Newbie (19 May 2015)

There was a time not too long ago that some AT's in Pet got LDA while the other half didn't. Kick in the junk.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 May 2015)

Dare I throw a curve ball and also tell this person about PLD?


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## REDinstaller (20 May 2015)

Isn't that all you throw??

 >


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## Bzzliteyr (20 May 2015)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Isn't that all you throw??
> 
> >



Oui.


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