# What is a Veteran?



## Acorn

Spr039 said:
			
		

> The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to waht was experienced by troops   in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....



Grist for another mill, but I have to ask: how can you judge the difference?

Acorn


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## Infanteer

No kidding - isn't all war "high-intensity" for the guy in a two-way shooting gallery?


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## the 48th regulator

> The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to waht was experienced by troops  in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....






			
				Acorn said:
			
		

> Grist for another mill, but I have to ask: how can you judge the difference?
> 
> Acorn



Thanks Acron you beat me to it

Please Spr039 elaborate, as it touches a nerve for me.

tess


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## axeman

yes please tell me how loading four friends on an aircraft  , having your exploded  armoured car recovered  . making 2.4 km shots is differnt then any other war   from what ive seen its always been 23 hours and 56 minutes of boredom then 6 min of panic as your leveling a house with a .50 cal


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## Island Ryhno

Spr039 said:
			
		

> . The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to waht was experienced by troops   in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....



Brother, having your comrade, your best friend sent home in a body bag is in my book a "tough moment" regardless of the lenght of time on tour. Would you like me to pass on to my friends that Cpl Murphy and his fellow soldiers shouldn't be vets. Cmon man that's asking for trouble.

[fixed your quote box - Infanteer]


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## Spr

Whoa everyone breath..take a look at my cap badge. You think I'm in a bubble here? I've loaded friends and bits of friends into body bags, been in the "two way shooting gallery", picked through mass graves,  even passed the funeral flag to a mother of a dead Sapper, I could go on. So I think I have earned the right to my opinion and in no way do I mean to take away from the sacrifices of others. My point is Veteran is strong word and brings with it some privilege and respect, which I don't think fully qualifies for the vast majority of pers that deploy on 6 month tours, there's a lot of strap hangers out there riding the coat tails of the few guys that actually experience "high-intensity" events in theatre.


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## the 48th regulator

> Whoa everyone breath..take a look at my cap badge. You think I'm in a bubble here? I've loaded friends and bits of friends into body bags, been in the "two way shooting gallery", picked through mass graves,  even passed the funeral flag to a mother of a dead Sapper, I could go on. So I think I have earned the right to my opinion and in no way do I mean to take away from the sacrifices of others. My point is Veteran is strong word and brings with it some privilege and respect, which I don't think fully qualifies for the vast majority of pers that deploy on 6 month tours, there's a lot of strap hangers out there riding the coat tails of the few guys that actually experience "high-intensity" events in theatre.



Absolutely no one is questioning your experience, but that experience, does not give you the right to make those comments.  If you wanted to make a statement about the vast majority on 6 month stint, then point those people out and maybe give some examples.

You paint a broad stroke like that, just to take a dig at someone on this thread, then be prepared to have people questioning you.

tess

BTW I was a reservist who gave up school to go on my "6 month" tour too. 

dileas


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## aesop081

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Absolutely no one is questioning your experience, but that experience, does not give you the right to make those comments.   If you wanted to make a statement about the vast majority on 6 month stint, then point those people out and maybe give some examples.
> 
> You paint a broad stroke like that, just to take a dig at someone on this thread, then be prepared to have people questioning you.
> 
> tess
> 
> BTW I was a reservist who gave up school to go on my "6 month" tour too.
> 
> dileas



You, spr039 and myself served on the same tour......


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## Bruce Monkhouse

This brings up a good [I think] question, "What, by definition and general consensus, is a vetran nowadays?
I think in the "olden" days it was pretty easy compared to the situation we have now.
I know the way I am leaning but must get yard work started so I will think while raking and try and put it on later tonight.   I definitely do not consider myself a veteran [no tours] but an ex-military guy with 10 years service.
Bruce

EDIT: if this grows into a new topic we will split it off later, so, if inclined post away.


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## Spr

I agree with Bruce..."Veteran Status" warrants it s own thread.

I just brought up the subject over coffee with some guys I work with, a good cross section of experience and trades ... Medac Pocket, Afgahnistan, FRY, Somalia, Rawanda...Reg Force/Ress,  Snr NCO's and Officers and it invoked lots of discussion, opinion and a ring of passion.

48th Regulator,

 I'm thinking we've walked some of the same ground and I actually think that experience, does give US the right to make comments as opposed to those that heard/read about it or worse studied the concept for a course. WRT you giving up school to go an a tour, great, I wish more young Cdns would do the same it would make our country & society a better place. What about the reg force guys that give up seeing lots of firsts (born, steps, words,   day of school,etc)? There's lots out there now that measure time away in years not months. 
Quote"If you wanted to make a statement about the vast majority on 6 month stint, then point those people out and maybe give some examples".  My informal poll over coffe a few minutes back, I brought this up beacause I didn't want to think I had some tainted view, and my sentiments were universal to the group. So where does the line get drawn for Vet Status? Do ground crew in Trenton loading a herc get the same credit as a rifleman in theatre? What about the guys in trg establishments that coord the trg event for the deplying unit? How about the guys manning the leave center, or the rear party guys that run top cover over the families of deployed pers? The list goes on...Everyone does their bit to make the big machine work.   

BTW I've got just short of 3.5 years of 20 deployed on missions (and a few months on Dom Ops) and I don't consider myself a Veteran. I get all the compensation I need each mid/end month.


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## Fishbone Jones

We can discuss this back and forth. It's one opinion against another. However, I think the point has to be made that Veterans and Veteran Status is/are defined by the Royal Canadian Legion, Dominion Command, the Legion bylaws and the DVA. The change to all the new inclusions was made some years ago. It was done because the exisiting definition at that time was very restrictive. Given what it used to be, there would be very few Veterans left in a few more years. There are few enough (the original ones) as it is that survive and belong to the Legion anymore. It was looked as a way to bolster the ranks and provide an honour to the current crop of Servicmen for what they do. The decision was agonized over for some time, and I for one am not going to second guess them.


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## Spr

Recceguy,

 Well said..


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## stukirkpatrick

Just a question, but are the former members of the various non-combatant branches who served during the second world war also considered veterans?   I dont mean the zombies who never left Canada, but the mechanics, supply troops, clerks etc who were deployed overseas, and may or may not have been exposed to fire during operations?

edited for spelling mistake


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## Fishbone Jones

Yes.


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## the 48th regulator

again,

this is not to hijack the thread.   But, to be candid it does fit within the theme.   Maybe the lads who's names we have used, will read this and understand what it is to serve and be proud...anyhoo

Spr039 

Chimo brother, and yes we did walk the very same tortured lands (man that sounds very poetic eh, part of my goal to add in old English words and verse to my vocabulary..)

Fair enough on your ideas.   I did not take a poll with the people I have coffee with, the guys I have served with, or, for that matter the people I share my views with on a website.

You see, I have had to deal with that kind of feeling from alot of people after my time overseas.   I only have gone on 1 (count that one) tour.   That's it Thats all.   Exact same one you went on actually.   UNPROFOR 94/95, OP HARMONY. I have already chirped about that.

But why did your post irk me?   Well, you see, after I was injured I had the "undeserved" privilege of having to carry a Veteran Affairs card.   Every time I have to seek medical attention for my disabilities,   I am questioned about me being a "Veteran".   I am told I don't look like one.   Too young to be one.

Hmmm   every morning I wake up and I have a splitting headache, because of the rounds embedded in my head reminds me why they are there.

Everytime I have to ask people to repeat their words... well I remember why that happens...as my left ear was blown off...

Every time I have to stop because of the aches an pains for the missing pieces in my body..I know why...

Everytime I wake up in a cold sweats in the middle of the night...I remember why...

So yep,

I did not see my buddies die.   My children did not grow up while I was away.   I do not have to be pushed in a wheel chair, or have too many grey hairs (OK I lied I have a head full of 'em).

But I still do not see why we do not qualify as vets.   What is it we got to do?   Tell me.   I Will show up to your coffee club and have a chat.   I don't want to be feted, far form that.   I just want this piss poor attitude to go away.   I think I have explained the BS I have to to go through, even to just get a new prescription for glasses, let alone being accepted by civvies who have to deal with vets.   That attitude is only promoted by my brothers in arms, "yep yer not a vet".

To be a vet does not mean being a super hero, by a simple definition it means to experience something. I gave myself to my country.   I served it proudly, and love it.   I almost died form my country, with half my head sitting in my lap. So ya I do get pissed when the likes of a soldier, one who even served on the same tour as I , claims that what we did really does not add up to a veteran' service for our country.

Spr039 , I don't need you to respond to this post.   Hey, we can start a new one and go on. But, from the response you have received, by others, as well as myself, your opinion is in the minority in this coffee club.

As for the Reserve, and school punch I took, it was in response to your dig at Bkells; 



> Not sure when I became the aggressor, did I touch a nerve? Let me guess you're a student/reservist on yout first BE?





So thanks for the compliment of me taking time off, and I do commend your dedication to the reg force.

Chimo and Dileas Brother.

Bruce 

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but in the context, maybe it is good for the deserters to see what we consider a soldier, veteran and a yellow bellied coward to be, all in one thread....

tess


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## Kat Stevens

Good post, Tess... I despise that frickin card too, especially out here in BF nowhere.  A retired soldier is as rare as rocking horse poop out here.  I always ask if that darn horn on my head grew back or something....

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Trinity

If i reply.. you know a thread has been hijacked

First of all. I have government websites...

Can't find a definition of Veteran....

But The Veterans affairs site did mention the Pension act defines vets as anyone
who was injured during peace or war time service..  of course i lost that link..

I did find this

2. Veterans Disability Pension Program

Veterans Affairs Canada (HRDC) administers a disability pension program that is governed by the Pension Act. Pension payments are provided to individuals whose disabilities result from military service, during either wartime or peacetime.

Canadians may be eligible for disability pension benefits if they have a permanent disability resulting from an injury or disease that is attributable to, incurred during, or was aggravated by service during the First World War, the Second World War, the Korean War, a Special Duty Area or a Special Duty Operation.

Canadians may also be eligible for a disability pension if they have a permanent disability that arose out of, was aggravated by, or is directly connected with peacetime Regular or Reserve Force service in the Canadian Forces.

http://www.sdc.gc.ca/asp/gateway.asp?hr=/en/hip/odi/documents/Definitions/Definitions007.shtml&hs=pyp

Is Bosnia and other tours Special duty ops?

hell.. the dictionary is even worse for being loose about the defintion...  anyone who has served is considered a vet.
Especially in the American Army.. you serve, your considered a vet  (please correct if thats wrong)


Point is..  IMO - if people want to shoot at you and are in uniform - you're a vet...

But i know Tess....  Vet status or not.. nothing is keeping him down..  He's kicked my rear end on a few
ruckmarches after his injury.  

*And if Tess isn't a Veteran... please tell me why there is a Museum display of him at the War Museum.*


(my opinions are my own..  my spelling and grammer are your fault though)


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Tess,
No apology necessary,thank you for sharing that post.


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## McG

PIKER said:
			
		

> News Release
> Canadian Forces Members to Observe Year of the Veteran
> 
> NR-05.017 - March 4, 2005
> ...
> 
> In 2001, the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada refined the definition of a veteran to recognize all former CF members, Regular and Reserve, who have met both DND's Military Occupational Classification (MOC) requirements and have been honourably discharged. Many members of the CF have previous service and are therefore currently considered Veterans.


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## Spr.Earl

Acorn said:
			
		

> Grist for another mill, but I have to ask: how can you judge the difference?
> 
> Acorn



Canadian Forces has for many years been involved in undeclared Wars so to speak ergo the Definition of a Vet.
A Political declaration of War

If all our Militia and Reg under the U.S. system,we 10,000 would be considered Vets!!
(Bosnia)

Oh yes our system suck's to day as to benefits under the definition of "Veteran"
It's a play on word's!!


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## Haggis

Do I consider myself a veteran?

I served in faraway places on ops and on excercises; missed first steps, birthdays, kids graduations and anniversaries.  I missed my mom's passing away.  There were two deaths on my last op tour, none by hostile acts, but those two soldiers are just as dead and they died just as far from home.  I have watched friends and subordinates being lowered into the ground on too many occasions.  Only one died in a "declared war".

I've had the shyte scared out of me more than once.  I saw my life flash in front of my eyes on my last tour (didn't like how it ended, either.) but I'm still here.  I was paid well and awarded medals for those sacrifices.

I'm on a pension for injuries sustained while on duty, but I'm not on a category (yet).

Looking at the context of how "veteran" was defined in previous generations, I doubt many of us would qualify or consider ouselves as having endured the same hardships as those who have gone before us. But times have changed, wars have changed and so must the definition of "veteran".

I carry a little VAC card too, but I wouldn't dare use it.  Do I consider myself a Veteran?   No.

But my government and my family do.


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## Trinity

Ok.. Fair enough..

For those who do not consider themselves a Vet, I surely would not want to force my
ideas on them.  I respect your opinions.

So lets change slightly the aspect of the thread.

Is there a stimga that goes with being called a Veteran?
How does one feel about being called a Veteran when we are young?
Do you find it offensive?

I'm not trying challenge anyones beliefs here.  Just open up another avenue to
explore and also help educate a young budding lad such as myself.



EDIT  MCG... thank you for the definition.. it was late.. I couldn't find it


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## Michael Dorosh

Apparently I was a veteran after never leaving Canada, and playing in a bagpipe band for nine years.   I don't think I'll be ordering my plates anytime soon.

I had a woman mail me her dad's service records once; he had told her he was a "commando" during the Second World War and performed secret missions.   She wanted some help reading the abbreviations on his docs.

I had the happy experience of telling her that a "Tipper Platoon" is a dump truck unit, that he was in the Service Corps, and spent most of his Army service in and out of hospital.

He was a Veteran, too, and I hope she was no less proud of him after hearing that.   He was obviously embarrassed and felt the need to exaggerate his record - I don't think he should have been.   He signed on the dotted line and served honourably (though I don't know what the hospital stays were for).   He was there where and when he was needed.

Just like the reservist who gets shot up in an Iltis, or the reg force guy shuffling paper in Ottawa so that soldiers can go do what they do around the world.

Perhaps if we were German, we could come up with some delicious compound word to properly describe the different categories of veterans, or if we were Inuit we could have three dozen different words, but we don't.      My own personal definition would restrict the word to those who have deployed operationally - for however long.   But like recce says, that's up to VAC, the RCL, and DND.

I certainly wouldn't pass judgement on the service of others by imposing my own definition.   Soldiers in this country get little enough credit, no need to do the same within our own ranks.


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## Haggis

Trinity said:
			
		

> Is there a stimga that goes with being called a Veteran?
> How does one feel about being called a Veteran when we are young?
> Do you find it offensive?



I would say that people are surprised when I'm presented as a vet, partly because of my age (40-ish) and the perception that "Canada doesn't fight wars... how can you be a veteran?" (I once heard "Oh, you're husband is a vet?  He should meet mine.  He's a breeder!)

How do I feel about it?  I guess it depends on the audience.  If I were in the Legion and somebody called me a vet, I'd likely be embarressed. Partly because those in attendance were "real" vets (in my eyes) and partly because the local branch years ago denied me membership because my non-wartime service "didn't count".  (Attitudes have changed since, but I never did join the Legion.)  Troops in my unit consider me a vet, including some with far more deployments than me.  That I consider an honour. 

Although I don't consider myself a vet, I don't find the label offensive.  In fact I find myself mildly intolerant of those who label themselves a vet without having "been there and done that".


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## pronto

Uhhhh - I have to agree with Haggis... I have a "glorious" 7 years (Canada, and some bases in the States - Drum, Grayling, Bragg, and out in '82). nothing overseas at all. I am not a vet by any stretch of the imagination, and would never refer to myself in that way!!!!

My brother, on the other hand, has over 20 and counting, lotsa out-of-country experience. He IS a vet. Maybe (as someone noted above), you need to be in potential harms way to count??? Not a bad criteria. 

Watcha think?


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## Shec

He was there where and when he was needed   makes one a vet.     How one earned the title of vet is a function of time, place, and policy   -   the fortunes of war and/or peace if you will.

That was the only standard the old boys at my legion branch applied to me after they invited me to join and dismissed my embarassment at never hearing a shot fired in anger or putting my butt on the line by playing silly bugger at Wainwright or Shilo.
   
So to me the real issue is how the   been there and done that factor speaks to the character of the one who is a vet.

If one is going to be so arrogant, so presumptuous, and so self-absorbed as to expect veterans of Normandy, of the bomber offensive, of Korea, of post-world war peace-keeping operations to be impressed and regalled with stories about how one defended Canada from the Fantasian hordes then one deserves the hoots of derision or the cold shoulders that one invites. 

However, if one sits with fellow vets and humbly respects the common values they share while appreciating the differences they have experienced then I am priviledged to be a member of that fraternity and I thank them for their welcome.


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## ArmyAviator

Another point of view.  I've always held the belief that there are two types of vets.  Veterans of military service are those who have served their country honourably and been released at the end of a terms of service.  Then there are War Veterans (with a big capital V) that have served their country in combat.  Yes this is a grey line even in these definitions.  For myself, I'm coming up to 20 yrs service and a couple of overseas tours, with more to come, and when I retire I will consider myself a veteran of military service.  I won't consider myself a War veteren unless I actuallly end up engaged in combat.  (Been close but not close enough.)  Thus in my mind there are a lot of members over the past 20-30 yrs I could consider War Veterans.  

These are just my 2 cents and that I have more or less respect for those who have served regardless of there situation.


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## Michael Dorosh

pronto said:
			
		

> My brother, on the other hand, has over 20 and counting, lotsa out-of-country experience. He IS a vet. Maybe (as someone noted above), you need to be in potential harms way to count??? Not a bad criteria.
> 
> Watcha think?



I think Shec nailed it.

I have a lot of respect for those who have "been there done that."   Right up to the point where they start demanding privileges for it.   Not many do, but there is always one or two, just as there are one or two who have never been anywhere or done anything and now demand the same privileges.

I think it's up to others to decide how to define one's self.   A WW II veteran, for example, never calls himself a hero.   That's up to the rest of us who haven't been there to do for them.   Funny how that works, eh?

Shec got it right.   He would never call himself a veteran, but the WW II vets - those grand gentlemen that they are, generously applied the label to him.   I've talked to them myself.   I said to one infantry vet "my generation couldn't do what you guys did."   He laughed and said "you never know until you're asked."

At least those of us who put on the uniform - be they a storesman in a Militia service battalion, or an Assaulter in JTF-2 - have openly sworn an oath and said "ask me."

I don't call myself a veteran, but I do think that whatever you call me, I've done more than the dude who laughs at our military, spends his life reading pulp fiction, playing paintball, renting loud movies, buying Soldier of Fortune and wearing camouflage to the mall - then tells the rest of us how stupid we were to spend hours and days out on exercise staring at the sky, beating our brains out on courses that don't teach us how to do much, or having to work on Rememberance Day!


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## Spr

Its obvious by the posts on this thread that the term "veteran" is one of perception. 

Its also a function of opportunity. 

I've got a grandfather burried in Cassino War Cemetery, the other survived Dieppe only to finish the war as a PW and be force marched across Europe as the Germans retreated       (he died - in the 60's - as result of chronic illness attributed to this experience). To the best of my knowledge my respective grandmothers received squat...I think a nice letter from the PMO and a small suvvior pension that wasn't indexed for inflation? 

The guys that spent a career during the Cold War Era, on Reforgers and fly overs, Snowballed out at 0300 in Lahr, digging in to defend the Battle Bridge or fight the Fantasian hordes off of Inchby Ridge, were doing their duty. If not for their commitment and effort, and yes sacrifice the Red Bear may have taken a big crap in Western Europe or even here. Are these guys not deserving of veteran status? (my father was one of these guys) 

So we have been notorius in neglecting our Vets and their families..and as Tess points out there's still a way to go. 

I laud the efforts of the Legion and DVA to change that perception. 

As I mentioned in an earlier   post we're all part of a big machine and none of us can work in isolation (although at times it seems we are).   The rifleman on patrol in Kabul right now wouldn't be able to do his job if not for the loadie in Trenton.   

Do both deserve equal recogniton? How does it get defined and deteremined in this PC world that demands equity?

If the threat   is assymetric does that not mean we're all equally engaged?

More questions then answers on this thread.


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## Shec

Thanks for the assist Michael D.

You know, this whole question intrigued me so last night I googled for a definition of veteran.   There were many.     But the one that resonated the most (OK call me a sentimental fool)   was this one.   Notwithstanding the US spin, its message applies to all:



> What Is A Vet?
> 
> He is the cop on the beat who spent six months in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day making sure the armored personnel carriers didn't run out of fuel.
> 
> He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a hundred times in the cosmic scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near the 38th parallel.
> 
> She or he -- is the nurse who fought against futility and went to sleep sobbing every night for two solid years in Da Nang.
> 
> He is the POW who went away one person and came back another -- or didn't come back AT ALL.
> 
> He is the Quantico drill instructor who has never seen combat -- but has saved countless lives by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang members into Marines, and teaching them to watch each other's backs.
> 
> He is the parade -- riding Legionnaire who pins on his ribbons and medals with a prosthetic hand.
> 
> He is the career quartermaster who watches the ribbons and medals pass him by.
> 
> He is the three anonymous heroes in The Tomb Of The Unknowns, whose presence at the Arlington National Cemetery must forever preserve the memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor dies unrecognized with them on the battlefield or in the ocean's sunless deep.
> 
> He is the old guy bagging groceries at the supermarket -- palsied now and aggravatingly slow -- who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who wishes all day long that his wife were still alive to hold him when the nightmares come.
> 
> He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human being -- a person who offered some of his life's most vital years in the service of his country, and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would not have to sacrifice theirs.
> 
> He is a soldier and a savior and a sword against the darkness, and he is nothing more than the finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the finest, greatest nation ever known.
> 
> So remember, each time you see someone who has served our country, just lean over and say Thank You. That's all most people need, and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded or were awarded.
> 
> Two little words that mean a lot, "THANK YOU."
> 
> Remember November 11th is Veterans Day!
> 
> "It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."
> 
> Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC


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## Spr

Sort of sums it up...dosen't it?


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## Haggis

That it certainly does!  Well done Shec.

"It is the soldier, not the reporter, Who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."

This quote now hangs, framed, prominently in my dining room.  It appeared there while I was in the Republic of Georgia in 2002.  Seeing it for the first time when I got home, I was quite moved.


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## Spr

A US Army Col  I worked with a few years ago gave me a copy of that quote - he was a CFR that had 4 tours to Vietnam  from rifleman - CSM. 

Pretty impressive man - he's a Veteran!


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## armygf

I stummbled on this thread and wanted to add my thoughts. You know we can all sit here and debate the word veteran and argue about who is who when it comes to qualifying under this title. The truth however is that it does not matter one bit if you might be a veteran or not because it is the content of one's character and your willingness to serve a cause bigger then any one person that matters not the title you get at the end.  

I have been in the Army for quite a number of years now, in since I was 16 in the reserves and my service has continued in the Regular Force now for even longer.  I have travelled to some of the worst places the world has to offer, so do I consider myself a veteran?  To be honest until this post I never thought about it for a second.  I am a soldier, and that is all that matters to me because all the fancy titles will never give back the youth I once had, and the friends that I have lost forever.  

To me the desire to be a veteran dishonors those who have served wether it be the Crimaen War to World War One, World War Two and Korea, right up to Afghanistan. This act of dishonor towards the word would inculde myself as I am sure others that are reading these posts with me.  If you get into this business for the glory and the title of veteran the I assure you that you are in it for the wrong reason.

I think that the word peacekeeping is a better word to debate, because that is the real issue here.  If the government would have any backbone and call war what it is then this debate would not exist now and the issues would be mute. Under that word soldiers of this great nation have been operating for years without the proper recongnition they deserve.  For those of us who have seen this first hand I know that you are as frustrated with the word as I am.

Stop debating things that do not matter.  You want to know what matters?  Everyday there is a Canadian Forces Member going through the worst day in their life in some god forsaken sewer, or someone who was forced out of the career they love by PTSD or worse. Canadians on deployment kill and are killed and that is what people should be concerned about rather then some stupid title that even guys in the Legion could care less about.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
_ rather then some stupid title that even guys in the Legion could care less about._

For my  late father and on behalf of VETERANS everywhere I take offense at that statement.


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## Kat Stevens

amen, stalker

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Bruce Monkhouse

_Quote from Silent Stalker,
I have been in the Army for quite a number of years now, in since I was 16 in the reserves and my service has continued in the Regular Force now for even longer.   I have travelled to some of the worst places the world has to offer, so do I consider myself a veteran?   To be honest until this post I never thought about it for a second.   I am a soldier, and that is all that matters to me because all the fancy titles will never give back the youth I once had, and the friends that I have lost forever. _   

Thats funny cause I was looking back at some of your posts and it seems that you have done a whole lot of living in the last 3 months....

     The Parade Square / Equipment / Re: para wings   on: January 20, 2005, 17:16:48   
i[glow=red,2,300] am not in the military, [/glow] just trying to get this done as a gesture to my friend.   it is a suprise so i can't ask him, can someone plese just tell me the measurements for the para wings?   it is the last thing i have to get done.   

     The Parade Square / Equipment / Re: desperate for information concerning uniforms!!!!   on: January 13, 2005, 00:14:21   
another question is, if he has red wings he has a green beret right, but if he has white ones do i have to track down the maroon baret? also what are the requirements for the hite wings?   what are the difference between someone with the white and the red.   i am so confuse


   The Parade Square / Equipment / desperate for information concerning uniforms!!!!   on: January 09, 2005, 01:33:18   
hi guys,

i have a general question concerning uniforms.   i am trying to put together a uniform for a friend of mine that used to be in the army from surplus items and although i have collected everything i need i am left with little information on how i should place the insignia on the uniform. specifically concerning 'wings.' i understand that my friend had earned what i believe to be called his pathfinder's wings? (torch insignia) from what little information i have i understand that this should be placed on the left breast above the ribbons.   how far up from the pocket should this be?   also do i also attach other wings along with the torch? (ex. paratrooper wings) if so how far is that insignia from the torch and which one should be on top? i really hope someone can help me as i can find no information on this subject.   i would rather no ask my friend as this is hopefully going to be a suprise.   if anyone knows the correct measurements plez let me know

 The Parade Square / The Canadian Army / uniforms in the public   on: February 11, 2005, 20:06:14   
does anyone know if regular force members are allowed to wear their uniforms in a bar? 

     The Parade Square / Equipment / para wings   on: February 18, 2005, 02:13:23   
what is the current issue style of para wings for the service dress?   is it the shiny gold version or the dull gold version?   do all para wings look the same or does the style you have depend on when they were first issued to you? 

.....awaiting your reply.
Bruce


----------



## Slim

Owned.

Silentstalker.

If you have knowingly posted false information about yourself, or others, on this site you will be placed on one of the warnings or banned. Its not acceptable here. Period.

I, or one of the other mods, (like Bruce Monkhouse whom you just P.O.'d to no end) will be checking.

Slim
STAFF


----------



## Kat Stevens

EEEP! Have I been duped?  Call me Sapper Sucka if so...

CHIMO,  Kat


----------



## Acorn

By definition I am a veteran. I qualify for those licence plates.

That being said, the guy who drove a truck in the UK from '43-'45 is a vet. The guy who served well behind the lines in WWI is a vet. There is no "two-way rifle range" criterion. In fact, given the tooth-to-tail ratio of forces in WWII, I would say a significant number of those who we consider as vets didn't hear an angry shot. Does that diminish them? Certainly not. 

The same should not apply to our forces today.

I don't go around claiming to be a veteran. I've been fortunate enough to avoid having been shot at (as far as I could tell - I heard the odd angry shot, but never came under effective enemy fire). However it's not for my own sake that I would hope the title of Veteran doesn't require an ordeal on the level of that suffered by Tess. So far I haven't buried a friend killed by enemy fire. I've buried a few, too many, killed by their own hand, and a couple killed in training. 

What is a Veteran? Hell, I don't have a clue. I say let the legal definition stand and let those who qualify make the claim, be they infanteers with 3 years combat time, or dump truck drivers who never left the rear areas.

Acorn


----------



## Trinity

Stalker..

I agree..  there are much worse problems than what is a Veteran.
But can we solve them on this message board?  

Are you that offended that (by accident in another thread) that the
question of what is and what isn't a veteran came up?



> I think that the word peacekeeping is a better word to debate, because that is the real issue here.



No... we are talking about members who were hurt on the job and are now considered vets by the government.
So apparently you haven't been reading this thread as much as you think.


----------



## Gunner

I think your "silent stalker" is a cadet.


----------



## from darkness lite

Gotta go with Acorn on this one.  As he mentioned regarding the tooth-to-tail ratio of WWII, depending on which ally you choose, it ranged from 7 "REMFs" to 1 Cbt Arm, to 12 "REMFs" to 1 Cbt Arm.

As for seeing Cbt, one of the Vets I have the pleasure of sharing the company of on the last school day before 11 Nov over the last 2 years at my son's school (11 Nov is a day off in Alberta, not like some provinces), was a clerk on an airfield in England in 44 and 45.  Closest he got to the enemy was a "Jerry Recce flight one evening".  Do I respect him still??  You bet!!  Is he a vet??  Yes!!

So by definition, I am, and so are most of us, a vet.  Maybe its in our nature to play down our accomplishments, saying we're just doing our job, etc...  Most Vets I know also state they were just doing their job, and play down their accomplishments also. For the most part, soldiers, airmen, and sailors tend to be a modest lot, saying it was no big deal, etc..  Take pride in our accomplishments, ultimately history will decide its worthiness....

Cheers


----------



## mainerjohnthomas

What is a veteran, I don't know the best definition.  I do know that those who have "been there, and done that" deserve and get my respect.  I also know that any Canadian soldier, sailor, or airman who gives his life in service to his country, or suffers cripling injury in that service deserves the same respect REGUARDLESS OF WHERE/HOW IT HAPPENED.  How many people have we all seen, good friends and brothers, killed and maimed from pushing things as hard as we have to do in training, exercise, and on deployments that try to do way too much, with way too few people; paying the price for making fifty year old kit perform on the wrong end of a thousand klik supply line.  Dead is dead, crippled is crippled.  If you bled for the flag, and were buried under it, then you bought the name Veteran with the same coin four of my six great Uncles did back in 39-45 (Grandad and Uncle Tom survived their service).  Our beloved leaders don't like to admit that people die in our army, they don't like to admit we kill people.  Our beloved leaders like to forget about us completely, except for a pious sound bite every November.  I served my time, saw some things, did some things, but nothing on the scale my father and grandfather had to.  I call them Veterans, I call myself and ex-serviceman.  I also call some of the men I served with in the nineties Veterans, because they had "been there, and done that".  I call every single one I saw buried a Veteran, because they bloody paid for it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

The jist of my rant is that our leaders are not the only the ones that don't see it.

We are too humble and don't want to coin ourselves, veteran.  We fear that it equates us with the heroes that we grew looking up to.  What makes them so heroic is that by their actions, we as Canadian soldiers have not had to leave our land for more than  6-12 months to go to some God forsaken land.  Very few of us have in our modern army have had to take someones life in order to defend our comrades and our own.

This is why they are hero's, veterans, the examples to follow.

My blister is that if we continue with this attitude that Veterans do not exist anymore, all of us who have suffered will continue to suffer.  Why? Well if we as soldiers are so quick to cast away the title of veteran, how easy would it be for our leaders, or the average Canadian to follow the same ideology.

And when that happens, ya some people are too gunshy (hehe pardon the pun) to use their VA benefits card to seek any help, but do you think the support from that average Joe will be there?  I don't thinks so, why?  I have seen it.

I say we have to stand up an realize what we have gone through. I have said this before, as I was a culprit, but I did not want to admit how I suffered.  Didn't want to be called weak.  Heck, Ii am sure if you walk up to any Combat Veteran, they can tell you for years they did the same, and society promoted that.  Now ask them how it feels seeking or even getting that help.  Damn near impossible at times.

That is what I have been intending.  I don't need recognition for what I have done, so that I can strut my stuff.  I do it to look at a future, yep mine, but everyone else who has gone through what we have had to. 

And while I am young and still got the stainless steel coating on the family jewels, I will see to it no one takes our rights away.

Otherwise, I will be eighty, and have some youn punk ass wippersnapper ripping me a new asshole...I just won't let it happen not now, and not then.

I am off to bed, thanks for sitting and listening to my daily rant.  Spring is to near and I am too jittery that i need to get out.

oh ya stalker,

Hope to meet up with you one day, would love to hear more of your stories in person, maybe we can go for a pint.   No worries I will order the light Shandy for you so you won't be embarrassed ....

tess


----------



## bossi

I've been pre-occupied elsewhere, and thus could/should be accused of "piling on", but ...

At our most recent Remembrance Dinner, I was touched immeasurably by something said to my originally by a Korean War vet (one who wears the Presidential Citation), and then reiterated by a Second World War vet (who, immediately before dinner, showed me a photo of his buddy and told me the story of his death during the war ...).

You've probably all heard it before, but because of the gentlemen who said it to me I'd like to repeat it:
They explained that in the First and Second World Wars, soldiers in training were required to point in the "direction" of the enemy (i.e. to the "front").  For Korean War vets, the enemy wasn't always in front of them, and it was even worse in Vietnam (when they might even be surrounded).

However, they hammered home the point that today's soldiers often don't even know who is the enemy when you're walking on a crowded street in Kabul - never knowing who might be a suicide bomber, or when an IED or command-detonated mine might be set off ...

Frankly, they said "they had it easier - at least they knew who their enemies were".
And so, I take their words to heart.

As for "defining" what is a veteran ... it will inevitably be muddied by the bureacracy, however I'd add my own $0.02:  It should include some hint that the person "answered the call".  

We all have our own Achilles heel, or "hot button", and mine is knowing people who have never volunteered, never even gone on FALLEX in Germany, never deployed on an op (not even a Dom Op), and yet have the unmitigated gall to strut around whilst administering "belt-fed rooster" to those who've been there and have the tshirt ... I admit it drives me crazy, both literally and figuratively, to the point where I can't stand to be in the same Mess with them ... for fear I'll lose it next time they chortle about some jammie swan they've connived for themselves ...


----------



## Art Johnson

Tess you are right in a lot of ways but not all WWII Veterans were treated with courtesy by DVA employees. I remember a chap from the 48th who phoned me as he was going up for a reboard. He asked what should I tell them? I replied that the first thing they are going to ask you is "how did you get here." I told him the answer is "with great difficulty". Sure enough that is what happened. I myself was given a hard time on a reboard, I lost. There were all these twits on the board who had not served a day in Athe Army let alone battle who hadn't a clue about what being in action was like. 
A chap from the  Irish Regiment was up for reboard he told his story and they didn't believe him. When he told me what had happened to him it certainly all seemed normal to me. He was driving down the road in Italy when a convoy of Tank Transporters were coming in the oposit direction, he was driven off the road and ended up in a British Hospital. The Canadian Army said he was AWOL and that label stuck and he didn't get a cent.
Another story to show how things get screwed up Murray Hoffman a Lieutenant in the 48th was wounded in action and died of his wounds in a British Hospital. He was assumed to be a member of the Jewish Brigade and was burried with that units war dead untill 1981 when Bill Elms brought to the attention of the authorities that he was a 48th and he was moved to the 48th section of the cemetary.
As to a time frame for a Veteran a Lt. Harriet was KIA within three days of leaving Canada about ten feet from where I was wounded.

Tess you chaps are all Veterans in my book and we have to keep after those Bastards in Ottawa so that they don't forget us.

Cheers

Art J.


----------



## Veterans son

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quote,
> _ rather then some stupid title that even guys in the Legion could care less about._
> 
> For my   late father and on behalf of VETERANS everywhere I take offense at that statement.



Great message, Bruce!


----------



## Veterans son

Shec

Thank you so much for posting that very moving message.
As I read it, there were tears in my eyes. :'(

Again, thank you!


----------



## patrick666

A veteran is someone who has gone places I will never go.... 

Much respect. Pro patria.

Cheers


----------



## Korus

An interesting parallel this debate, but from another country (Argentina regarding the Falklands)

* Argentina's forgotten war vets*
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4394561.stm


----------



## mainerjohnthomas

Kipling's poem Tommy summed it up.  Civilians love their soldiers as long as they fear the imminent loss of their life, or wealth.  Once the fear abates, or if the lives spent failed to buy the toy they wanted, they quickly forget us.  The US after Vietnam, Russians after Afghanistan, the Germans after either World War, good soldiers give their all for a country that proves itself unworthy of their sacrifice.  Our government fails to recognize the Veteran status of any soldier post Korea, and given a choice, would have ignored Korea.  The willingness to throw away the lives and health of those that have served their nation seems to cross all racial, religious, and political boundaries, it seems everyone is willing to toss away those soldiers inconvenient enough to have survived and not quietly dissappeared.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Well,

Sorry to have to dust off this old punch up but some things must be cleared.

Fasteddy, 

I am sure by now you have finished reading the thread that broke off from the one you and I have been bantering on;

You see, what was said in the quote that you praised ticked me off.  For personal reasons



> Not sure when I became the aggressor, did I touch a nerve? Let me guess you're a student/reservist on yout first BE?
> 
> No need to get personal (" grizzled old war hero"??) . I'm neither, definitely not grizzled and farm from a hero/vet. The last vets we have are from the Korean War. Exposure to hostilities during a 6 month tour doesn't qualify, as far as I'm concerned as Veteran Status. Yes there may be some tough moments, being shot at and targeted by "mad bombers" has a certain level of stress, but pales in comparison to what was experienced by troops  in Dieppe, NW Europe, SE Asia and Kap Yong etc....
> 
> Anyway..enough said. I think the today's posted articles sum up everyone's sentiments quite well.
> 
> Nicely put Spr039, no truer words have ever been spoken.



So, I did not mistake you for someone else, I was not amused by your agreement.

So I offered to clear things up by PM, fair enough;



> As far as carrying on a discussion with you on any subject by PM.s, anything ,anytime I have anything to
> say to you I can do it in open Forum.



Bring it on, why do you agree?

dileas

tess


----------



## axeman

Grrr as a pointy ended persson that has ridden in the back with the gear . know that the cf and any army is always heavy on the tail to help the teeth . as ive stated earlier i know what a veteran is in my mind but then there always the few that will get swept to the aft in the mind by thinking oh that doesnt count . there will generally be some one that your not thinking about to pop up and say well what aboiut the ppl that served and are serving in Alert , and places like that?

48th i hear you and will hoist a beer in your honour .


----------



## Kat Stevens

I did my bit for a few years and took my bite of the crap sandwich every day. Am I a veteran? you're damn skippy I am... Am I a war veteran? O'course not.  Look at what the word means.  If Wayne Gretzky can be called a veteran for getting rich, why the hell can't I.  And, yes, I do have that Gucci Alberta veteran plate on my truck...The Legion says I can have it, that's good enough for me...

CHIMO,  Kat


----------



## FastEddy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Well,
> 
> Sorry to have to dust off this old punch up but some things must be cleared.
> 
> Fasteddy,
> 
> I am sure by now you have finished reading the thread that broke off from the one you and I have been bantering on;
> 
> You see, what was said in the quote that you praised ticked me off.   For personal reasons
> 
> So, I did not mistake you for someone else, I was not amused by your agreement.
> 
> So I offered to clear things up by PM, fair enough;
> 
> Bring it on, why do you agree?
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess




I assure you that I have read every post in this Thread and reread spr039's reply which you feel I agreed
with. I only agreed with it up to my comparison of my own Service which inclued 2 yrs in Germany 55-57.
which paled in comparison of those who went before me up to that date. Of course I consider them
Veterans, regardless of their individual roles. Of course this was not a shooting war, But a   number of
Troops did die in accidents and by their own hands, whether the distingsion of Veteran should be confired on them is a grey area, by comparison to those who fought and died in Theaters of Operations and also
those who only stood and waited. The word Veteran, has always carried a Aurora of Heroism with it,
therefore a certain amount of thought might be applied to its use.

As for my Record of Service, I do not consider myself as a Veteran, an Ex-Serviceman yes.

As for you Sir, I most certainly would and do call and refer to you as a Veteran. And dully appreciate
your sensitivity to any arguments that might tend to exclude you or any of our Comrades from that Distingsion. 

Respectfull yours, FastEddy.


----------



## CH1

The difference between "a vet" and those that serve in the crap holes we are sent to is purely Gov't semantics.  Since the 2nd big scheme & more recently Korea, we are sent into "Police Actions". Korean Vets have just been recognised even though it was a "Police Action" & not a "declared war".

My own 2 cents for what it is worth, is these so called "Police actions" are still combat.  Whether you are on the line for 1 day, 1 year or 10 years, you are for ever changed.  You do not return the same person as when you left.  You for ever bear scars the average civvie will never be able to imagine.  You have joined that special order called "Vet".

Cheers


----------



## mainerjohnthomas

CH1 said:
			
		

> The difference between "a vet" and those that serve in the crap holes we are sent to is purely Gov't semantics.   Since the 2nd big scheme & more recently Korea, we are sent into "Police Actions". Korean Vets have just been recognised even though it was a "Police Action" & not a "declared war".
> 
> My own 2 cents for what it is worth, is these so called "Police actions" are still combat.   Whether you are on the line for 1 day, 1 year or 10 years, you are for ever changed.   You do not return the same person as when you left.   You for ever bear scars the average civvie will never be able to imagine.   You have joined that special order called "Vet".
> 
> Cheers


Well said.  CH1 nailed the definition to a T.  Veterans, those who have experienced the conditions that will forever change them, wether in a declared war, or police action, or "peace enhancement initiative" (had that one from an MP doing an tour).  I don't care what the politicians call it, the dead don't care what the politicians call it, and the wounds (physical and emotional) don't care either.


----------



## JBB

I served in Croatia with 1 PPCLI in 1994.  I certainly consider myself a veteran.

JBB


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## Spr.Earl

JBB said:
			
		

> I served in Croatia with 1 PPCLI in 1994.   I certainly consider myself a veteran.
> 
> JBB


I,as a Militia Sapper who joined in 76 and still serving with only 1 tour (not for the lack of trying)don't consider my self a Vet..
I've only done my job as a Sapper and too my adopted Country for the last odd 29yrs.
Am I a Vet?
Not in my eyes,I've just done what I signed up for,to serve with honour and do my job ,as we all have done.

It's Civie St. that has determined the defintion of a Vet not us,those who have seen  what War can do to our fellow human beings don't think of it in that term.We think of friends,of good times and bad times of what we have seen and done over our careers.


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## Acorn

This is where US and Canadian attitudes seem to part ways. 

The Yanks consider anyone who served honourably in their Forces to be a Veteran. 

We seem to consider only those who served in War to be so (probably in part due to the aspects of veterans' benefits legislation). However, we consider anyone who pitches up at Remembrance Day with a rack of gongs (the usual WWII rack of four-five) to be a Veteran, regardless of his service. Rightly so, I say. Yet, somehow, we think somone who served in the CF for, say, 25 years and never had a tour is not a Veteran? Perhaps not in the legal sense (i.e allowed legislated vet's benefits) but certainly we should consider the semantic sense. 

The nature of the "teeth to tail" ratio means that the vast majority of those who we call Veteran (and who are entitled to WWII benefits) did not see combat. Yet we don't hesitate to allow them the "title." 

Does one have to be shot, as Tess was, to be entitled to be called Veteran? What is a former member of the CF who dedicated many years of his life, and his family's stability, to the CF entitled to? The pension alone? 

I used to be one of those inclined to refuse to think of myself as a Vet. My career has been unremarkable, I should think. I haven't been wounded, or even shot at (as far as I could tell - I was in the vicinity of the odd angry shot). Yeah, I'm a vet. I don't need a licence plate for my car, or any other visible symbols, other than the medals I have been awarded, including the CD, which I'm more proud of as days go by. But I am a Veteran. And so are most of you, whether you believe it or not. 

You *served*. How many can truly say that?


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## Kat Stevens

Unless I'm mistaken, all those Emergency Services guys get a substantially better benefits package than we do.  They also make packets more on their T4 slips than us.  They undoubtedly deserve it.  As I said earlier, Wayne Gretzky is called a veteran of the NHL.  Most Emergency guys are called veteran officers, firefighters, etc.  The word vet in my vocabulary equals " done my time."  IMHO of course...

Off topic PS:  Why do Celine Dionne, Mike Meyers, and a bunch of others deserve an Order of Canada for getting rich?  Seems to me that "we who serve" make  substantially more of a contribution to promoting Canada overseas than these border jumpers....IMHO, again...flame away... ;D

CHIMO,  Kat


----------



## axeman

in my humble opinion


----------



## pronto

Hmmm Celine - I dunno - she bugs the livin' beejayzuz outta me, but I know Mike Myers is a HUGE Canada booster. He loves the place, thinks Toronto is pretty cool (I know, I know - let's not go there), and was a big tourism booster during the SARS thing. he went onto talk shows and took time to tell people to visit toronto, and wore toronto tee shirts, he gives money to canadian charities. I figure he deserves it.

Now, that warbling, yodelling, uluation thing Celine does - wow, annoying or what!


----------



## patrick666

*celine dion* :fifty:

Anyway,

I agree, I don't believe you need to see action to a veteran. I think putting the time in to support and protect your country and its citizens is more than enough. People have the misconstrued idea that to be a veteran you had to go in guns blazing and dodging bullets. Regardless if you're a clerk, cook, or infanteer... I think veteran status is a solemn pride that should not be handled. 

(On another side note: I think the CF numbers are low because 50% of people in Canada still believe basic is like Full Metal Jacket, from my experiences) 

Cheers


----------



## Jim_Steed

Some veterans bear visible signs of their
		service...a missing limb, a jagged scar, a
		certain look in the eye.

		Others may carry the evidence inside them...a
		pin holding a bone together, a piece of shrapnel
		in the leg...or perhaps another sort of inner 
		steel...the soul's ally forged in refinery
		of adversity.

		Except in parades, however, the men and women
		who have kept Canada safe wear no badge or
		emblem.

		You can't tell a Vet just by looking. What is a
		Vet?

		He is the Cop on the beat who spent six months
		in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day
		making sure the armored personnel carriers
		didn't run out of fuel.

		He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five
		wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior
		is out weighed a hundred times in cosmic
		scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near
		the 38th parallel.

		She or he is a nurse who fought against
		futility and went to sleep sobbing every night
		for one solid year in Vietnam.

		He is the POW who went away one person and came
		back another â â€œ or didn't come back at all.

		He is the Drill Instructor who has 
		never seen combat but has saved countless lives
		by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang
		members into soldiers and teaching them to watch
		each other's back.

		He is the parade-riding Legionnaire who pins on
		ribbons and medals with his prosthetic hand.

		He is the career Quartermaster who watches the 
		ribbons and medals pass him by.

		He is the anonymous hero in the Tomb of the Unknown
		Soldier.. or whose presence at the CF National
		Cemetery must forever preserve the
		memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor
		dies unrecognized with them on the battlefield
		or in the ocean's sunless deep.

		He is the old guy bagging groceries at the
		supermarket â â€œ palsied now and aggravatingly slow
		who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who
		wishes all day long that his wife were still 
		alive to hold him when his nightmares come.

		He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human
		being â â€œ a person who offered some of his life's
		most vital years in service of his country
		and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would
		not have to sacrifice theirs.

		He is a Soldier, Sailor, Airman and a savior and a sword
		against the darkness and is nothing more than the
		finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the 
		finest, greatest nation ever known.

		He is the beggar on the street corner, holding
		up a piece of cardboard with the scribbling,
		â Å“Help a Vet, HUNGRY!â ?

		So remember, each time you see someone in uniform
who has served our country, just lean over and say THANK YOU. That's all most people need and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded.

Two little words that mean a lot. â Å“THANK YOUâ ?

Author Unknown


----------



## Art Johnson

Acorn said:
			
		

> This is where US and Canadian attitudes seem to part ways.
> 
> I don't need a licence plate for my car, or any other visible symbols, other than the medals I have been awarded, including the CD, which I'm more proud of as days go by. But I am a Veteran. And so are most of you, whether you believe it or not.
> 
> You *served*. How many can truly say that?



I don't need a license plate either but I have one. It is to remind the Civilians that we have Veterans. In the past two weeks I have conversed with two different young ladies and they were both surprised to know that we had Soldiers in Korea. They have never heard of Croatia or any of those other hell holes our lads served in.

I would advise any Veteran who is eligble to obtain a Veterans plate it arouses the young peoples curiosity.


----------



## rocky1fac

Jim Steed, 
   You are bang on I read that little didi the other day at the legion and it brought a tear to my eye.  Now with that said I will qualify it a little. An older fellow was chatting with me the other day and during the conversation he spoke about some WW2 guys he met and then prefised his comment with "you know the real vets" After being wounded in battle twice and carring some of the highest awards for valour in combat I near choked him. So it goes, The WW1 guys treated the WW2 guys like crap saying they were not real vets, the ww2 guys did it to the Korea vets. Now they are all doing it to us, Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion. Dont cast out a UN tour as nothing some tours are worse than others and some rotos of a tour are worse than others. What is a VET.... well I am I closed with and destroyed the enemy on more than one occasion probably more than most WW2 guys ever did, on a UN tour you dont get rotated out of the line after a skirmish you stay you hold ground and you fight for days and weeks sometimes. If the states are right then a soldier only spent 17 days in the line duing the Great War and 3 Days during second. Korea was longer and even more so was VN. And remember of those in the line that saw combat only 15% fired thier rifles at the enemy. 
Whats a vet Jim Steed got it right,


----------



## Art Johnson

Re only 15% of the men fired their weapon in battle. In the book Fields of Fire the author interviewed the man who supposedly made that statement who said that he never said that and further the author that quoted him had never ever spoken with him. In my experience the problem was the opposite we had a tough time trying to keep the men from firing when the company was being attacked.


----------



## Gunner

> Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion



I don't know where you are getting your information from but your comments have been questionable on several threads now and it seems you are talking out of your ***.   PM on the way.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/dday/juno.html

QUICK FACTS:

1.1 million Canadians served in WWII, including 106,000 in the Royal Canadian Navy and 200,000 in the Royal Canadian Air Force


42,042 killed 
54,414 wounded 

D Day

14,000 Canadians landed on D-Day 

450 jumped by parachute or landed by glider 

10,000 sailors of the RCN were involved 


*340 killed 
574 wounded 
47 taken prisoner * 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
During the first six days of the Normandy campaign, 1,017 Canadians died. * 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*By the end of the Normandy campaign, about 5,020 Canadians had been killed. About 5,400 Canadians are buried in Normandy.*

In the two and a half months of the Normandy campaign, Allied casualities (killed, wounded and captured) totalled 210,000. 

Canadian casualties totalled more than 18,000, including more than 5,000 dead. German casualties were 450,000.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

rocky1fac said:
			
		

> Jim Steed,
> You are bang on I read that little didi the other day at the legion and it brought a tear to my eye.   Now with that said I will qualify it a little. An older fellow was chatting with me the other day and during the conversation he spoke about some WW2 guys he met and then prefised his comment with "you know the real vets" After being wounded in battle twice and carring some of the highest awards for valour in combat I near choked him. So it goes, The WW1 guys treated the WW2 guys like crap saying they were not real vets, the ww2 guys did it to the Korea vets. Now they are all doing it to us, Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion. Dont cast out a UN tour as nothing some tours are worse than others and some rotos of a tour are worse than others. What is a VET.... well I am I closed with and destroyed the enemy on more than one occasion probably more than most WW2 guys ever did, on a UN tour you dont get rotated out of the line after a skirmish you stay you hold ground and you fight for days and weeks sometimes. If the states are right then a soldier only spent 17 days in the line duing the Great War and 3 Days during second. Korea was longer and even more so was VN. And remember of those in the line that saw combat only 15% fired thier rifles at the enemy.
> Whats a vet Jim Steed got it right,



They teach you how to write like that on a Staff Course?


----------



## Cloud Cover

rocky1fac said:
			
		

> Jim Steed,
> You are bang on I read that little didi the other day at the legion and it brought a tear to my eye.  Now with that said I will qualify it a little. An older fellow was chatting with me the other day and during the conversation he spoke about some WW2 guys he met and then prefised his comment with "you know the real vets" After being wounded in battle twice and carring some of the highest awards for valour in combat I near choked him. So it goes, The WW1 guys treated the WW2 guys like crap saying they were not real vets, the ww2 guys did it to the Korea vets. Now they are all doing it to us, Lets give them there due but remember that after all you heard about DDay only 34 canadians died on the invasion. Dont cast out a UN tour as nothing some tours are worse than others and some rotos of a tour are worse than others. What is a VET.... well I am I closed with and destroyed the enemy on more than one occasion probably more than most WW2 guys ever did, on a UN tour you dont get rotated out of the line after a skirmish you stay you hold ground and you fight for days and weeks sometimes. If the states are right then a soldier only spent 17 days in the line duing the Great War and 3 Days during second. Korea was longer and even more so was VN. And remember of those in the line that saw combat only 15% fired thier rifles at the enemy.
> Whats a vet Jim Steed got it right,




As somebody once said in another  thread "BS and give it a rest."


----------



## Slim

Here is Slim, sans flags but with a number of thoughts to share...

You know if you were to mention to the Triple-Soy-Decaff-latte crowd that we'd actually had soldiers in combat later than WW2 they'd look at you like you had two heads...

The sad fact is that the average Canadian does not know or care whether we;

A. Have an army.
B. Maintain that army.
C. What that army does

I will use my cousin Katie as an example; 

Katie is my cousin. She is a delight to be with. She is a 24 year old dancer who is struggling to "make it" in the Toronto entertainment scene. She works very hard at what she does and deserves to succeed.

I try and have coffee (if not dinner) with Katie at least once a month. When we get together the time is well spent and we usually wind up talking far into the evening.

In alot of ways Katie is a representative of a cros section of Canadian society today. Everything she knows about the military she has learned from me.

About 6 months ago I learned of a friend of mine who was killed while driving a Coyote in Bosnia. Having dinner with katie several days later I happened to mentioned this to her and the fact that I was upset about it.

Kate was stunned. "You mean to tell me that a Canadian person in the army died?!" she said, with a stunned look on her pretty young face. "But how did this happen, what was he doing for that to happen?! I didn't know our army goes places like that, don't the Americans do it for us...?!"

At first I was rather upset with Kate. After all she should know better right? 

Wrong...

How could she when our own govt treates the CF like the dirty cousins locked in a closet until its election time...Then they trot out a few slogans, announce some meager funding and then send the CF back into the arms of obscurity again...

If you were to ask the average member of the Canadian public (provided you could pry them off of their cellphone) if we had any vets around today, they'd probably stop for a moment and then (after a very long pause) tell you about all the OLD MEN that come out of the woodwork on Rememberance Day.

Guys like Sgt (Retired) John Tessione of the 48th Highlanders, who I am lucky enough to call my friend, have not ever entered the collective Canadian conciousness...Even though he and his driver were wounded (John in the head!) and had to travel for hours by themselves before reaching help. 

(for anyone who is interested the Iltis that John and his driver were in when this happened is displayed in the Canadian War Museum for all to see. I believe that there are also pics on another thread)

John is my age...Perhaps even a little younger...And, in my eyes, has earned the title of veteran (along with my respect)...As have anyone who has served during a conflict. 

The average Canadian does not know much (if anything) about THEIR amred forces, and probably thinks that the money could be spent better...Like say Healthcare, than wasting it on a bunch of undereducated violent louts that don't have an education or even wear suites to work!

To cut a long diatribe short its the govt's responability to better educate the masses and stop treating the CF like a small retrded child that constantly whines for attention.

Rather treat and support her like the grownup she is...And give her the recognition she so richly deserves.

Rant ends

Slim


----------



## CH1

It's what I have said for years.  We are locked away in the dusty annuls of time, in the dark forgotten back pages of history books.

This is slowly changing, with thanks to all of the "younger" generations In the Cdn military.  My generation was more governed by our WW2 & Korean Vets.  We didn't say much outside of our own circles.

Cheers


----------



## 57Chevy

Jim_Steed said:
			
		

> Some veterans bear visible signs of their
> service...a missing limb, a jagged scar, a
> certain look in the eye.
> 
> Others may carry the evidence inside them...a
> pin holding a bone together, a piece of shrapnel
> in the leg...or perhaps another sort of inner
> steel...the soul's ally forged in refinery
> of adversity.
> 
> Except in parades, however, the men and women
> who have kept Canada safe wear no badge or
> emblem.
> 
> You can't tell a Vet just by looking. What is a
> Vet?
> 
> He is the Cop on the beat who spent six months
> in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day
> making sure the armored personnel carriers
> didn't run out of fuel.
> 
> He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five
> wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior
> is out weighed a hundred times in cosmic
> scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near
> the 38th parallel.
> 
> She or he is a nurse who fought against
> futility and went to sleep sobbing every night
> for one solid year in Vietnam.
> 
> He is the POW who went away one person and came
> back another â â€œ or didn't come back at all.
> 
> He is the Drill Instructor who has
> never seen combat but has saved countless lives
> by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang
> members into soldiers and teaching them to watch
> each other's back.
> 
> He is the parade-riding Legionnaire who pins on
> ribbons and medals with his prosthetic hand.
> 
> He is the career Quartermaster who watches the
> ribbons and medals pass him by.
> 
> He is the anonymous hero in the Tomb of the Unknown
> Soldier.. or whose presence at the CF National
> Cemetery must forever preserve the
> memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor
> dies unrecognized with them on the battlefield
> or in the ocean's sunless deep.
> 
> He is the old guy bagging groceries at the
> supermarket â â€œ palsied now and aggravatingly slow
> who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who
> wishes all day long that his wife were still
> alive to hold him when his nightmares come.
> 
> He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human
> being â â€œ a person who offered some of his life's
> most vital years in service of his country
> and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would
> not have to sacrifice theirs.
> 
> He is a Soldier, Sailor, Airman and a savior and a sword
> against the darkness and is nothing more than the
> finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the
> finest, greatest nation ever known.
> 
> He is the beggar on the street corner, holding
> up a piece of cardboard with the scribbling,
> â Å“Help a Vet, HUNGRY!â ?
> 
> So remember, each time you see someone in uniform
> who has served our country, just lean over and say THANK YOU. That's all most people need and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded.
> 
> Two little words that mean a lot. â Å“THANK YOUâ ?
> 
> Author Unknown



And this is one good reason to have put all these veteran threads in one place. :nod:
It may be an old post but....... thanks for posting it Jim. iper:
Ex Coelis


----------



## mover1

Citizenship - This applies to all federal Public Service positions. Applications made by persons who are not Canadian citizens are accepted. However, if there are sufficient qualified applicants who are Canadian citizens, the selection will be confined to these applicants.

Appointments will be made in the following order: 

1. Canadian Veteran
2. Widower or widow of a Canadian Veteran 
3. Canadian citizen 
4. Persons not belonging to the previous groups.


The Public Service Employment Act defines "veteran" as follows:

“veteran”
« ancien combattant »
“veteran” means, subject to subsection 2(1) of this Schedule, a person who

(a) during World War I was on active service overseas in the naval, army or air forces or who served on the high seas in a seagoing ship of war in the naval forces of His Majesty or of any of the Allies of His Majesty, and who has left that service with an honourable record or has been honourably discharged,
(b) during World War II was on active service
(i) in the naval, army or air forces of His Majesty or of any of His Majesty’s Allies and at the commencement of that active service was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland, or

(ii) in the naval, army or air forces of Canada, and, not being domiciled in Canada at the commencement of that active service, is a Canadian citizen,

and who, in the course of that service, performed duties outside of the Western Hemisphere, or on the high seas in a ship or other vessel service that was, at the time the person performed those duties, classed as “sea time” for the purpose of the advancement of naval ratings, or that would have been so classed had the ship or other vessel been in the service of the naval forces of Canada,

(c) during World War II served as a member of the Women’s Royal Naval Services or as a member of the South African Military Nursing Service outside of the Western Hemisphere and who, at the commencement of her service during World War II, was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland,
(d) has been certified by the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs as having been enrolled in Canada or Newfoundland by United Kingdom authorities for special duty during World War II in war areas outside of the Western Hemisphere, and who served outside of the Western Hemisphere, and at the time of enrolment was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland, or
(e) during World War II served outside of the Western Hemisphere with the naval, army or air forces of His Majesty raised in Canada or Newfoundland as a representative of Canadian Legion War Services, Inc., the National Council of the Young Men’s Christian Associations of Canada, Knights of Columbus Canadian Army Huts, or Salvation Army Canadian War Services, was authorized so to serve by the appropriate naval, army or air force authority and who, at the commencement of that service with those forces during World War II, was domiciled in Canada or Newfoundland;


This was the definition of a veteran given to me by the HR department of  the Federal Public service when I applied for a job this past Feb. 

Thanks for your service.  But we don't recognize it


----------



## mover1

Gnr Morton

You lost me dude. :-\
WTF was your post about?


----------



## OldSolduer

I think the issues are how politicians and the public view veterans.

I still have it in my mind a "veteran" is WW2 or Korea. 

I believe this is the view most people hold - Uncle Bob for down the road who went to France in 1944. They do not view "nephew" or "niece" who went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and AQ in the same light.


----------



## Journeyman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I believe this is the view most people hold......


Most people probably don't give much thought to it at all.  It's simply more evidence that the 'yellow ribbon/support the troops' sentiment was a mile wide and an inch deep.  

Merely history repeating itself -- peacetime: soldiers and dogs stay off the lawn.


----------



## Jed

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I think the issues are how politicians and the public view veterans.
> 
> I still have it in my mind a "veteran" is WW2 or Korea.
> 
> I believe this is the view most people hold - Uncle Bob for down the road who went to France in 1944. They do not view "nephew" or "niece" who went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban and AQ in the same light.



I think you are correct, Jim, on what the public perceives to be Veterans. After WWII and probably WWI the public most likely viewed their veterans as 20 or 30 somethings. This self imposed segregation of former serving personnel has been ongoing for a long time.

I myself feel I have earned my veteran license plate even though there are many who are older or younger with harder and longer or easier or shorter TI then myself.

This does not diminish my respect for those who served in WWII or Korea or whether or not they were a cook or combat arms.


----------



## stokerwes

I myself do not think myself a veteran, even though I have 25+ years with numerous deployments and am still serving. That is part of the issue. When most Canadians, including myself and other serving members, think of a veteran they picture the WWI WWII and Korean vets. This is partly because there are two different systems that serve members depending on when where they served. This segregates us by default. If there was one system covering *all *  veterans it would force us to unite. It's human nature to not get involved in any confrontation unless you it affects you personally. This is why the vets under the pension system didn't appear to be opposing the changes to the charter. When the NVA was passed I think, I hope, the MP's voted the NVA in so quickly was that it was meant to be a living document in which changes could be made quickly as needs changed. Now the NVA is in place it appears that in order for any changes to be made it takes numerous investigations and study groups and think tanks and blah,blah,blah.... until any changes are made.
The Ombudsman has clearly laid out some of the *"minimum"* changes that should be made *immediately*. What does VAC, lead by MP Fantino, do? Launch another review, now MP's are stating they should have Canada wide town halls to hear the concerns the vets have in order to conduct this new review of the charter. This has been done to the point of redundancy, yet politicians cannot take their collective heads our of their a**es and see what is obvious. It's almost like they are afraid to make a decision.  
I believe the Ombudsman has all veterans best interests in mind at all times. He is our collective voice. If veterans pass on any issues to his office he and his staff do followup with them regardless of how small they may seem. I wish that more vets use the ombudsman's office. They cannot raise any issues that they do not know about. If the Ombudsman's office was used to its full potential there would be less newsclips of veterans and MP's pointing their fingers and yelling at each other, this makes for great news, but in the end nothing gets accomplished and it does little for our cause.
I do believe that Mr. Fantino should be removed as the Minister of VAC I have even wrote my MP on this, surprisingly I didn't get a reply from him, that's one less vote that Scott Reid, MP for Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington (Ontario) will be getting. Mr. Fantino won't be fired as much as anyone may want him to be, and he certainly will not resign as I am sure he feels he has done nothing wrong and is doing a great job. He appears to have little regard for veterans and their concerns. He is almost tied with Rob Ford for publicly apologizing for things he has said and done in the past to upset veterans. When asked questions he keeps stating the same facts over and over again hoping that if he says it enough it will become reality.
As I approach release I really hope that there are changes made to the NVC that will improve the ability for veterans to have easy and fast access to services they desperately need.
End Rant  
Have a good weekend everyone  :nod:


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## Jed

I myself do not think myself a veteran, even though I have 25+ years with numerous deployments and am still serving.

You are not a veteran, you are still serving. Let's see how you feel after you pull pole and spend a couple years aways from the greater military community.


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## George Wallace

Well said stokerwes.  I too, did not consider myself a Veteran while serving.  Canadians on a whole, as has been pointed out already, seem to think of Veterans as only those who have fought in both World Wars and Korea.  I have even seen Veterans like one "Old Trooper" commenting on some of those who met Mr. Fantino as not being real Veterans because their medals did not include any medals for bravery or Afghanistan.  There have been many Veterans who have no medals for the "shit holes" they have been to, on Deployments, Tours, etc.  We have the "Atomic soldiers" and those affected by "Agent Orange", those who were in Somalia and Rwanda, those who have served in Bosnia collecting bodies, those who served in Cambodia and Vietnam or in the Middle East.  Hundreds have died in the service of this country outside of the two World Wars, Korea and now Afghanistan, but some narrow minded people, some of them Veterans, do not recognize their Service or downplay it as that of REMFs.  It is an awkward battle to fight, if Veterans can't even agree on who is and who is not a Veteran.


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## xo31@711ret

well said recceguy


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## OldSolduer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Hundreds have died in the service of this country outside of the two World Wars, Korea and now Afghanistan, but some narrow minded people, some of them Veterans, do not recognize their Service or downplay it as that of REMFs.  It is an awkward battle to fight, if Veterans can't even agree on who is and who is not a Veteran.



Well summed up. A Korean veteran told me that the RCL, post Korea, was not welcoming of Korean vets as they weren't "real" vets.
Seems things haven't changed a great deal.


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## Nemo888

Perhaps we should just use veteran as a term for anyone who served and has to use VAC if they get grievously hurt. It's not like you can sue the army or go to WSIB like civvies.

Some seem to be labouring under the assumption that the problems with the current system are an oversight or a mistake. I was a fly on the wall in 2005 at NDMC when the NVC was being drafted. Veterans were going to cost too much. Period. Cost is the only reason for the NVC. Looking after the wounded was going to cost more than prosecuting the war under the old system. The solution was to slash the benefits and pour money into a large public relations campaign. The PR firm that came up with the catch phrase "Living Charter" was the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down. in the end the Ombudsman is a political appointee who will do as he is told. The last one who tried anything else was fired on the spot. Now we have an unfair system where pre 2005 vets get huge payouts and those after no matter how much combat they have seen get a tiny fraction.

The official playbook is stall and give promises until we all get too old or tired or blow our brains out. What have we gotten other than empty promises in the last 5 years? Priority Hiring? You are first in line after the 20,000 employees laid off. The pretty pamphlets and public speeches don't cost a dime. The 5 billion in promises only led to an additional outlay of 1.3 million in benefits last fiscal year. We are being conned by the sitting government and used by the opposition parties. We need a short list of things we want and we need to control our message. The government beancounters want the same thing they did in '05. To save money by taking benefits away from veterans.


----------



## MJP

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> in the end the Ombudsman is a political appointee who will do as he is told. The last one who tried anything else was fired on the spot. Now we have an unfair system where pre 2005 vets get huge payouts and those after no matter how much combat they have seen get a tiny fraction.



Sorry for the derail.

This is twice now you have said this.  The last ombudsman did nothing until he found out he wasn't being renewed and then he did what he does best and made loud ineffectual noise.  Good riddance.


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## Journeyman

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should just use veteran as a term for anyone who served and has to use VAC


So because you believe yourself to be a special little princess, I'm no longer entitled to consider myself a veteran?    :


Well you certainly fit in with those yammering idiots who 'stormed out of Fantino's office because they were disrespected'....in that YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR ME!


No response required; with each post you reaffirm why you are amongst the "permanent-Ignore"


----------



## Teager

Journeyman I think the way he wrote that came out wrong. I believe he was trying to say anyone who has served OR used VAC services. Although you would have needed to serve to receive VAC services so the "and has to use VAC" would be irrelevant.


----------



## Journeyman

I guess that's the down-side to actually reading what people post, and presuming a degree of responsibility for what one writes -- despite evidence to the contrary.

But thank you for acting as his 'terp.


----------



## Nemo888

I simply meant veteran as a legal term. My apologies if that was unclear. Someone who served and cannot use civilian workplace injury legislation and needs go through Veterans Affairs. Generally if identical injuries happened in a civilian workplace the payout would be 10 times or more what VAC pays. Compounded by unlimited liability the treatment of soldiers compared to their civilian counterparts has become quite unfair.


----------



## stokerwes

Jed said:
			
		

> I myself do not think myself a veteran, even though I have 25+ years with numerous deployments and am still serving.
> 
> You are not a veteran, you are still serving. Let's see how you feel after you pull pole and spend a couple years aways from the greater military community.



I'll have to disagree on that. I am a veteran according to all government legislation, and this is wherein a lot of the issues lie. It doesn't matter where you served where you went or if you are currently serving or not serving. This only perpetuates our, meaning Veterans (those that have served and are currently serving), lack of ability to get our sh**t together and agree on what is needed for all Veterans. Was someone who fought in WWII and returned home to stay in the military not a Veteran. I think not!
Have a great day


----------



## The Bread Guy

Since it's drifting into "what's a vet, exactly?" territory here, I'm moving some posts to an already-in-place "What's a Vet?" thread.

Continue, folks.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Jed

stokerwes said:
			
		

> I'll have to disagree on that. I am a veteran according to all government legislation, and this is wherein a lot of the issues lie. It doesn't matter where you served where you went or if you are currently serving or not serving. This only perpetuates our, meaning Veterans (those that have served and are currently serving), lack of ability to get our sh**t together and agree on what is needed for all Veterans. Was someone who fought in WWII and returned home to stay in the military not a Veteran. I think not!
> Have a great day



Well maybe in rereading my comment I could have phrased this better. Of course those soldiers returning from WWII and entering the service were considered veterans. 

The public's definition of what a veteran is has evolved and will continue to evolve as time passes. You and I have subtly different views on what a veteran is. I personally consider that you will be a veteran when you retire. That is when I started to think of myself as a veteran; when I left the Reg force, than the Primary Res and a year or so in the civi world wilderness away from the military.


----------



## Jed

it is interesting we are discussing this.  I was in Calgary a few months back and I was wearing one of those RCL Veteran ball caps and I was verbally bushwacked by a couple of 50 to 60 year old executive types from the USA. They started to do the Walt outing interrogation routine because they thought I looked too young to be a WWII or Korea vet and Canada did not have all that many people serve in Vietnam. No other service time mattered as far as they were concerned. They maybe could make allowances for Iraq service.

So, legal definitions aside, when do we consider service men and women or former service men and women Veterans?

Also, as an aside, when travelling through the US in Canadian uniform I was always treated with better respect by their USO services in airports or on base then I ever was in 22 years in Canada.


----------



## CombatDoc

The RCL definition of "veteran" is anyone who has served and has completed basic training ie BMQ.  This means that those still serving are veterans, those who released after Basic are vets, etc.


----------



## ajp

Personally...land just my opinion....if you have a cd, automatic vet.   I'd you have a tour....yup....a vet.  BMQ....kinda shy of vet status.  My opinion.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

ajp said:
			
		

> Personally...land just my opinion....if you have a cd, automatic vet.   I'd you have a tour....yup....a vet.  BMQ....kinda shy of vet status.  My opinion.



Hmm,.....so what am I?  Got out after 10 1/2 years.........tours??... hard to come by in the 80's.
Was just about to mail away for the NDI 75 card, maybe I shouldn't bother??


----------



## Jed

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Hmm,.....so what am I?  Got out after 10 1/2 years.........tours??... hard to come by in the 80's.
> Was just about to mail away for the NDI 75 card, maybe I shouldn't bother??



This speaks to my point. What of any of those who signed on for 9 years before getting an IRP offer and then got out ?  As you said there were not a lot of tours in the 80's but there were a number of crappy no medal awarded deployments or TD.

As far as I am concerned you qualify as a veteran both legally and by unofficial definition.


----------



## Journeyman

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Hmm,.....so what am I?


Must.......not..........post.....     >

       ;D


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Must.......not..........post.....     >
> 
> ;D



Now would I say things like tha..........err,..yea, never mind....... :-[


----------



## Bluebulldog

Not sure where I found this, but I kept it.

"A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "Canada" for an amount "up to and including my life"."

Kind of covers a broad swath, but basically means you answered the call.

Being a former reservist, I certainly don't think I am, despite the definitions by the RCL. Some folks I know sure are though.


----------

