# Pink Sheets-NoMoney so Reservists Told to Stay Home-Article



## bossi (22 Jan 2003)

Reminds me of the bad ole days when we'd sign "pink sheets" if the Army ran out of money ...


Slim pickings for part-time soldiers
No more training until April for reserve units that are broke
By STEPHANIE RUBEC, SUN OTTAWA BUREAU

OTTAWA -- The Canadian Forces' eastern and northern Ontario reserves are broke. 

The 33 Canadian Brigade Group has told half its part-time soldiers not to show up for their weekly training sessions because there's no money left to pay them until April. 

So instead of meeting every week to fine-tune their military skills, about 800 of the brigade's 1,500 reservists from Oshawa to Cornwall and as far north as Saul. Ste. Marie will report only one evening every other week until the spring. 

Maj. Richard Masson, 33, the brigade's acting chief of staff, said the Defence Department has forbidden the reserves from running a deficit so there's no choice but to shut down most of the training. 

"It would be fiscally irresponsible to go in the red," he said. 

Masson said the reserve units who ran out of money, such as the Cameron Highlanders, won't get back to weekly training sessions until the new budget kicks in this spring. 

The part-time soldiers are paid by the Defence Department every time they show up for training. 

But the department gives reserve units only enough cash to cover the required 37.5 training days for 70% of their soldiers. 

The Canadian Forces increasingly depends on its reserves to pad out foreign deployments, and the last rotation of troops into Bosnia was exclusively comprised of reserves. 

Lieut. Bruce Rolston, spokesman for 32 Canadian Brigade Group, which oversees Toronto-area units, said the Bosnia deployment has sapped many Ontario reserve units of manpower and cash. 

"There's a certain fiscal tightness that there may not have been in previous years," he said. 

"We're looking at a time where there's all kinds of uncertainty of what the Canadian Forces could be doing from month to month." 

Rolston said his brigade cut back on training in past years to avoid a deficit, but has learned to live within its budget by putting off specialized training exercises. 

"Shutting down services and cutting back on training is a last resort," Rolston said.


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## ninty9 (22 Jan 2003)

Thats pretty sad.

Glad thats not happening out west or i‘d be screwed.  I‘m just starting my tests.


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## Harry (23 Jan 2003)

I made my slam in the other post.

But I believe I made the comment a while back that the Reg Force would rob the reserves to pay for the forthcoming ROTO.

Pretty sad indeed when the reserves, in whatever state they are in are cashiered in this way.

Hmm, there is a term for macro-financial planning like this...  Loosely stated in laymen‘s terms.  Rob Peter to pay Paul.

Bet the whiz bang in LFC who dreamt this baby up is the latest golden child on the 18th floor.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jan 2003)

Hey atleast at the private - corporal level when reserve troops don‘t show up to weekly training nights or week-end excercises they can say "Hey  i‘m just doing my part to help out the budget"


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## portcullisguy (23 Jan 2003)

Atrocious, all the more, because today I read in the papers that the Fed will have a surplus of $8.5 BILLION.

And they STILL can‘t find the money to pay public service wages?

On my civilian side of things, Canada Customs, my "employer of choice", has been in a state of a hiring freeze for Southern Ontario Region, and we expect that it will be extended Canada-wide by the fiscal year-end.  Along with this, I have heard from the grapevine, that all public servants will be asked to accept a 3-year wage freeze.

When I joined in 1998, we had just completed a 7-year wage and hiring freeze.  Within 2 years, I was making more money than inspectors who had 8 years on the job.  Good for me, not good for morale.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Jan 2003)

Harry, the article which started this post describes a single Reserve brigade that has cut back training to avoid over-expending its allocated annual budget.

It did not say that anyone had summarily re-alocated previously promised funds from the Reserves in general, or this brigade in particular.

From this you choose to allude; A. that the Reserves have been "robbed" of resources to fund Regular Force activities, and B. that this was specifically planned at the Land Staff.

Nationally, the Reserves are funded to a level averaging about 37 training days per member. When only one brigade claims to be at the bottom of the bucket, it‘s likely a local problem. Note that the Brigade Chief of Staff specifically mentioned that some units (not necessarily all) ran out of money. Could this perhaps be indicative of too much training too early in the fiscal year, and not a great anti-Reserve conspiracy????

Then again, perhaps you have proof to the contrary.

Mike O‘Leary


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## Harry (23 Jan 2003)

And the short fall is because?

Lets see the cost of training and preparing RESERVE troops and equipment for a Balkan Roto came out of the reserve budget.  In addition to the routine and normal costs of annual res training and exercises.

I guess maybe you don‘t see it with your head in Central Canada.  In other words the money was used to secure training for reserve pers to augment a reg force task.  Normally the funding would be from the reg budget.  But in this case, as it has been downloaded to the reserves, so has the bill.

Without additional funding, this has impacted on their regular financial disbursements.  And the troops affected, gee, isn‘t this the Bge that is supposed to provide the res pers, hence the impact on their budget specifically.


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## Bellman (23 Jan 2003)

Either way, that blows. I‘m transfering in to the Ontario Armoured Regiment out of Oshawa. The idea that I might be put on the back burner because I‘m a new recruit is definitely tolerable, but the thought of my whole new regiment undergoing a cutback of such magnitude is gonna take some getting used to.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Jan 2003)

And the shortfall is probably because of too aggressive a training regime early in the year, or poor budget management at the unit level. Reserve participation in Un Ops is usually dispersed across the country, or at least throughout an area. It is very unlikely that a single brigade would be required to fund the pre-deployment training for the Reserve participation in a Roto. (Except, of course, for ensuring that their own participants met the pre-requisite training standards to join the primary unit‘s pre-deployment training cycle.) That‘s why the Reserve personnel for the Composite Reserve Company went to Western Area last fall, to complete work-up training before deployment this spring.

And, by the way, my head is not "in Central Canada", it‘s in a Reserve Armoury on the east coast, with a unit at maximum manning, with a busy training schedule and enough money left for a ten-day exercise for 90 unit personnel  (plus 100 from other units) to Virginia next month. And we‘ve sent personnel to recent operations as well.

Mike O‘Leary


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## Brad Sallows (24 Jan 2003)

Michael probably has the correct gen.  Budget problems don‘t just show up suddenly.  This happened many years ago in BC (at least, the troops on the floor - including me - were told we were cutting back the remainder of training for Feb-Mar because another unit had dramatically overspent).  Units that monitor their current and forecast expenditures, match their training and recruitment to the funds devolved, and prioritize activities don‘t seem to have difficulties.


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## Nunquam Retrorsum (24 Jan 2003)

Here, in Montreal, 34th Brigade, at least 3 units have been totally closed until the fiscal year is over.  My units keeps up with the training, but we have to cut 1 weekend at Valcartier in February, and we‘re down to 1 night per month training for the whole regiment and 2 night for Staff
The problem ain‘t one Brigade...
Money is lacking here too


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## Harry (24 Jan 2003)

[REMOVED]


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## Michael OLeary (25 Jan 2003)

Obviously, Harry, you have me at a disadvantage. Enjoy your sniping from the cover of anonymity.

Mike O‘Leary


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## Michael Dorosh (25 Jan 2003)

> [REMOVED]


Harry, when I see the "edited by" notice, I generally believe it indicates someone has thought better of saying something stupid and has amended it.

I see no evidence of that here.

I think your remarks are obviously tactless, but in all honesty thoroughly revolting.  This is a forum for discussion, speculation, conversation - not for attacks, especially one so cowardly as to be directed by an anonymous poster such as yourself. You‘ve pulled stuff like this before, and quite frankly, I think you deserve to be banned for this type of conduct.  I would hope you could air your dirty laundry elsewhere, or if you really insist on pissing all over someone brave enough to use their real name, perhaps be brave enough yourself to do likewise.

I don‘t know Michael OLeary, but I also know that he should be judged by what he says here - not on what some loudmouth tells us to think about him.  Based on his posts - which have always been thoughtful and intellectual - I certainly regard him more than I regard you.

I think your agenda has been pretty clear from the beginning too, Harry, and the type of person you are is clear.  We all have better manners than to spell it out - and life is too short to worry about people like you.

Congratulations on a well thought out and classy response, Michael.


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## Gunner (25 Jan 2003)

> The reservists who went to Edmonton were paid for out of the Reg budget.


Not sure where you are getting your information from.  I was  *VERY* involved in the provision of the CRIC to 1 PPCLI and the CRC to 2 PPCLI for Roto‘s 11 and 12 respectively. There has been no "raiding" of either regular or reserve budgets for either rotation.

LFWA mission tasked each CBG in western Canada to produce a dismounted platoon of soldiers for Roto 11.  This level of training is well within the "baseline" training funding for reserve CBG (and their units).  Training above platoon level wasn‘t required until the CRIC formed in Edmonton.  Confirmation training in May, Jul, Aug, was provided for by the Op PALLADIUM funding envelope provided to 1 CMBG for FY 02/03.  This funding was given fro the purpose of deploying soldiers on Op PALLADIUM...whether it was Regular or Reserve soldiers they would receive the same training.  Pay was Cl C so the unit/CBG/LFWA/army did not have to shoulder these costs.

Roto 12 was even less intensive on the Reserves.  Due to the extremely composite nature of the CRC (pls from LFWA, LFCA and LFAA) the decision was made to bring them in early to conduct all necessary training, etc.  This was accomplished down in Fort Knox and from everything I‘ve heard and read it was well done and the company came together very well (cohesion wise).  I think 2 PPCLI deserve credit as the raw product they were given was generally poor (from a collective not individual standpoint).  Once again the majority of this training was funded by Cl C and O&M from the Op PALLADIUM funding envelope.  It had even less effect on Reserve units than Roto 11.

Now there are two areas that do impact the Reserve budget.  First, there could be some financial concern over the level of individual training some of the soldiers received (ie inf pl comds attended Ph IV, Sgts/WOs attended ASAC, etc) for Roto 11.  I know LFWA provided some of these costs but other costs for MG Course, driver courses, etc. were borne by the CBG/unit.  This was done for a specific reason, that being, that the soldiers would have taken this training anyway, hence, it was part of their "normal" indiv training.

Secondly, CBGs have complained about the requirement to pay for screening for operations and they believe it is over and above their baseline funding of 37.5 days.  I don‘t agree for two reasons.  First, part of the per man funding includes 6 days for administration.  If a unit uses this money for another reason, its not LFWA problem (reason we have decentralized funding).  Secondly, and most important, within LFWA when a soldier goes on Cl C he is effectively removed from his parent unit.  LFWA does not claw back the 37.5 days (plus) from the CBG or LFWATC.  I don‘t know if the other LFAs do this or not but the result is a significant windfall for the unit.

I have to throw my 2 cents in with those on the side of unit mismanagement.   If the mismanagement was due to neglect on the part of the CO, hopefully, he will be dealt with.


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## Harry (25 Jan 2003)

Mike D., take a flip bud.

You are one of the salient quite ones who elects to comment on PC easy stuff and reserves tact in cases where you can fall back on simple hard line print.  What have you done lately?

You will never put your neck out to save your own bacon.

O‘Leary, we have met when you were a Res and later in both NB and ON.  If you recall who John C. is formerly of 1 RCR, I think you will then remember me.  Had the same nick in the military.  Harry.

As for banning me, don‘t fret, little pet.  And by the way, it was edited because I left off a cap and changed the avatar.  Pom.

Gunner makes a solid point and if you guys bothered to go deeper the facts are there.  In my lowly capacity two years ago we dealt with complaints of this nature wherein budgets as strapped as they were, were being taxed by Reg force commitments impacting upon res unit operating budgets.


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## Mike Bobbitt (25 Jan 2003)

My apologies all, for not catching this thread sooner. (In fact, Harry was the one to bring it to my attention.)

He was leaving the board anyway, and apparently wanted to go out with a bang. I regret that things have turned out this way, it‘s ugly and unneccessary. (And a poor way for me to spend my Saturday night!)

At any rate, I apologize for the whole episode, and hope those who remain can maintain a professional tone.

Cheers


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## muskrat89 (25 Jan 2003)

What the heck does "pom" mean?

Sorry, a little levity, to get us back on track
  :warstory:


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## Cdn Soldier (25 Jan 2003)

Mike:  No need to apologize.  You can‘t be here 24/7 and it‘s a hobby for you, not a babysitting gig.


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## Mike Bobbitt (26 Jan 2003)

> pom
> 
> n : (Australian and New Zealand) a disparaging term for English immigrants to Australia or New Zealand [syn: pommy]
> 
> ...


Have no idea what the real intent was though...


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## 2Lt_Martin (4 Feb 2003)

Back to the original subject here, the whole budget thing stinks. I am personally affected as a member of a 33 BDE unit. Kind of hard to keep soldiers around when you can‘t pay them or train them for 2 or 3 month periods. A lot of people in my area are talking about leaving their units. I hope talk is all it comes to, but you can‘t really blame people for taking this stancee. 

As for who is responsible, I think this is anyone‘s guess. Oh I‘m sure somebody in the upper echelons knows who is responsible for the state of the budget right now, the question is what will be done to prevent this happening again in the futre?

I love the reserve world and the things it has taught me so far. I guess we will all have to stay tuned to see what hapens with next years budget. 

Waiting for April...


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## humint (4 Feb 2003)

Yes, the budget cuts are hitting everyone. I‘ve talk to a few people from different units in 32 & 33BDE and they are all tight with cash. Some have even shut down all extra training for March, including March-break for secondary school students. 

I think the difference is that some units were prepared for the cash flow problem, and held on to some $$ for such as thing, and others did not anticipate the cash crunch. I guess everyone will have to sit tight until the new fiscal year starts. 

This whole thing does not bode well from a moral standpoint. I‘m curious to see if a lot of people will just give up and leave.


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## muskrat89 (4 Feb 2003)

Not to disagree with the points made, and maybe the severity is different, but budget woes are not new. It seems like every year between 83 and 96, my Unit underwent some kind of budget thing. Short money and restricted training some years. Excess money, bring in anyone you can, for whatever you can - other years. As I rose up the chain a little, I began to understand more, the specifics of goofy budgets, at least on the Regimental level. It‘s not only the Military, either - I work with budgets in my civilian job, and stuff happens. It‘s hard to try and maximize your spending, while keeping a reserve for unforeseen circumstances. Not saying the Military is not underfunded, not saying there are not "fiscally bad" COs and Area Commanders (not sure what they‘re called these days), just saying that variations of springtime budget games have been around for a lot of years.


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## fortuncookie5084 (6 Feb 2003)

Speaking strictly based on my experiences in a reserve unit in Montreal, I can say that the training is particularly deficient.  In my four or so years I have never once rapelled, fired a 9mm, been trained on a mortar of any calibre, and until three months ago never did fibua--nothing!!!---and what we did do was limited to one half day. Go to Ft Drum? No.  Go on ex with the rest of the bde at the annual ex at Ft Knox?  Never. Now we‘re one of the flat broke units in 34 GBC. When I signed on the dotted line I expected a basic level of training in all pertinent areas.  I was wrong.  All I got was much drill and inspections instead.  At least my time in Canada‘s reserves is coming to an end.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Feb 2003)

I would try and find out where the money is going my friend, that much lack of training isn‘t right.  My old reserve unit in one year sent half a platoon to belgium for a few weeks doing fibua training with the brits, sent another half a platoon to the arctic doing winter warefare training  not to mention sending the regiment to fort drum. For that year (among a couple others) we had more live fire excersises then the reg force infantry battalions. We also had about 30 recruits sent away to be trained in meaford. 
(CO was Col.Sandy Robertson) 
Sad thing is that the reason why you guys are missing all the good training probably won‘t be found until its too late. ie the person responsible has quit or been transfered


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## Gunner109 (6 Feb 2003)

Money is always a factor in anything we do.  Long gone are the days of firing loads and loads of ammo.  It is the units responsibility to budget their money.  I budgeted the ammo for 2 RCHA when I worked in the RCPO‘s shop.  Not an easy task when the arty has almost 2/3 of the Bde‘s ammo budget.  With 3.8 Million I was able to buy 935 HE PD 155mm rounds and 935 green bag proppelent for them.  and 600 rnds of 105mm HE PD ammo.  Now 3.8 million seems like alot of ammo but that is all that it bought. besides some very small amount of 5.56 and pyro. This is what the Regt had to train with for the year.  thats 2 X 109 Bty‘s and 1 X LG1 Bty.  Its not alot.  The Regt‘s have to do what they can with the budget they have.  I can only hope that we may some day get back to doing larger and longer trg ex‘s  with more concentration on live fire.


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## fortuncookie5084 (6 Feb 2003)

Ghost, the question about where the budget money is going has been asked and answered by many at my unit.  I am not suggesting misappropriation or suspicious wasteage of funds.  However, I am lamenting the pathetic lack of standardized infantry training in the Canadian Forces.  I joined to do all the stuff you mentioned (which I‘ve heard a lot of from others elsewhere).  All I‘ve done is the bare bones and a heck of a lot of ironing shirts and shining boots (I believe it was a US Marine colonel who stated that the modern soldier has no time to shine boots).  I‘m almost but not quite in favour of numbered units that all march to the beat of the same drum.  Doesn‘t matter to me though, I‘m checking out of the net soon---found a job where the grass really is greener.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Feb 2003)

fortuncookie....I take it they make you iron those same shirts where the tags and regs say "do not iron", and polish those boots that the regs say "do not polish" ?


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## Spr.Earl (10 Feb 2003)

pom

n : (Australian and New Zealand) a disparaging term for English immigrants to Australia or New Zealand [syn: pommy]

/P-O-M/ n. Common abbreviation for phase of the moon.
Usage: usually in the phrase `POM-dependent‘, which means flaky.

 Actualy it is an Australian term for Brit‘s which mean‘s ;Prisoner of Mother England.


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## Tyler (15 Feb 2003)

I haven‘t heard anyone from 31BDE sound off yet, so I just thought that I‘d mention that the Lincoln and Welland is in the same position as some other units in 32BDE. We have a total of 5 parade nights from January untill the end of March. There won‘t be any trips south either. It wasn‘t this way last year. But that‘s as far back as my experience takes me.    

I have been told that our BDE ex will be a live fire ex in Pet starting in mid August. Anything similar in other units?


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## Spanky (15 Feb 2003)

I guess it MUST depend upon the unit.  We‘re currently running a QL4 crse in addition to regular training.  Between now and the end of the fiscal year, we have three weekends of unit trg and three weekends of QL 4.  This is in addition to 1/2 day a week.  We are also sending 10 to 12 pers to Fort Knox with another unit for five days.

We are in 31 Bde


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## Marauder (15 Feb 2003)

Hey Spanky, you on the ML crse? If so I‘m one of the balmoral wearers.


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## Pugil (20 Feb 2003)

__________________________________________
Speaking strictly based on my experiences in a reserve unit in Montreal
__________________________________________

Fortunecookie, Im from a unit in Mtl too and correct me if im wrong, The Guards primary tasking is to provide enough people for summer ceremonial duties and most of their budget are put in there, fieldcraft is only their secondary tasking (I hope that the person that recruited you told you that). 

I think the current fiscal year ends around april, my unit to have cut some ex, we dont have ex until  the fist week of april( we going to have 3 big ex during that month). Because of budget cuts we had to cancel 2 ex in Ft. Drum and a trip to England, just to name the cool ones.


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## Spanky (24 Feb 2003)

Marauder re: your last.  Nope.  Crse WO for the recce QL4.


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