# Which Air trade should I choose?



## matwxxwong (16 Nov 2009)

Recent years, I learned that Avionics technician are in high demanding in the civil world. As far, I know that all these trades been closed. So I am waiting and hoping for March 2010, while having my security check. Apart from working for the force, I would also want to accomplish a degree in any Universities to upgrade my academic background. AVN would be the trade that I am confident but would also need to plan for the future. Is avionics difficult to pass? How many chances do you have to pass any exams in the first year? And what % of the CF members jump out of the force to work for civil when contract ended?


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## PMedMoe (16 Nov 2009)

Umm, weren't you on here before as just matwxx?  You're not allowed to have two accounts, you know.


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## George Wallace (16 Nov 2009)

Already taken care of and warning sent.


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## matwxxwong (16 Nov 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Umm, weren't you on here before as just matwxx?  You're not allowed to have two accounts, you know.



Well, obviously I didnt know that. If I did, I wont attempt to do it. Anyways, if you can answer my questions, pls do so. Thanks!


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## belka (17 Nov 2009)

I don't know of too many AVN/AVS techs that made the jump from Military to Civy. Not sure how it is for AVS, but for AVN, Transport Canada will not honor the QL3's as a valid course anymore, so you'll have to re-do it at an accredited college. Don't go into the CF to get experience so you can transfer to civilian work, if you are, you are joining for the wrong reasons. IMO, the CF offers more than the civy world right now - better pay, better benefits and most importantly, job security. 

The tests are like all government tests, multiple choice and completely out to lunch.


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## matwxxwong (17 Nov 2009)

belka said:
			
		

> I don't know of too many AVN/AVS techs that made the jump from Military to Civy. Not sure how it is for AVS, but for AVN, Transport Canada will not honor the QL3's as a valid course anymore, so you'll have to re-do it at an accredited college. Don't go into the CF to get experience so you can transfer to civilian work, if you are, you are joining for the wrong reasons. IMO, the CF offers more than the civy world right now - better pay, better benefits and most importantly, job security.
> 
> The tests are like all government tests, multiple choice and completely out to lunch.



I am not joing the force for civy world. But you always have to build another back up plan for yourself. I believe the forces will treat each member equally. Joining the force was my plan 2 years ago. I often see some of the civy corportation recruit people with military experiences, such as the Bombardier, IMP, etc.  So if you fail the exam, you will be released?


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## PMedMoe (17 Nov 2009)

matwxx said:
			
		

> So if you fail the exam, you will be released?


Not necessarily, you may more than likely will be reassigned to another trade.


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## belka (17 Nov 2009)

matwxx said:
			
		

> I am not joing the force for civy world. But you always have to build another back up plan for yourself. I believe the forces will treat each member equally. Joining the force was my plan 2 years ago. I often see some of the civy corportation recruit people with military experiences, such as the Bombardier, IMP, etc.  So if you fail the exam, you will be released?



When I went through Borden 5 years ago, you could fail each exam once. Fail the exam on the same subject twice, you get your file reviewed and they will decide if you get another chance. If you fail too many tests, they might not give you a second rewrite and you'll get reassigned to another trade or released. IIRC, you always get one rewrite on an exam. Don't sweat your scores on the exams either, they are more english tests and don't mean squat. Get through your QL3's and prove yourself at the squadron where it matters.


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## aesop081 (17 Nov 2009)

belka said:
			
		

> The tests are like *all * government tests, multiple choice and completely out to lunch.



 :

Maybe get some time in a go to a few more CF schools before spouting off shit like that.


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## belka (17 Nov 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> :
> 
> Maybe get some time in a go to a few more CF schools before spouting off crap like that.



No thanks, I'd rather make a blanket statement like that because I love seeing "get more time in" type posts from the older members on here. It fuels my fire.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Nov 2009)

So just like the original "extraordinary" poster you've always been, 5 years hasn't taught you anything?

Sad.


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## yoeun (7 Apr 2010)

i've finished an Avionics (AVS) course at a civi college and im doing the AVN through civi college again, and i have to say Avionics was almost twice as hard. Well for me that is. Its less hands on and more theory.

I could never get a grasp of electronic theory. Sure i passed but never and will ever understand that stuff. I didn't want to be a "box changer" so i switched over to AVN instead, and its totally different.


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## Sub_Guy (9 Apr 2010)

belka said:
			
		

> No thanks, I'd rather make a blanket statement like that because I love seeing "get more time in" type posts from the older members on here. It fuels my fire.



You post could have been

"No thanks, I'd rather make myself look stupid with a blanket statement like that" 

Or you could have been specific to your trade.

"The tests I took were all multiple choice, and ridiculously easy"


Aim to pass the test the first time, getting a chance to rewrite on every subject is bad for business.   IMHO knowing that you have a second chance in every subject breeds laziness, one rewrite should be enough of a kick in the butt to get you studying more.


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## Iltis (13 Apr 2010)

What ever you do DO NOT I say again DO NOT join The EME BRANCH Your treated like crap, Trust me it was the worst mistake of my life.

Go Airforce,any trade is better than being in the ARMY Trust me!!!!

Plus its better to check in (Hotel) than dig in (Trench)....Plus the money is better......


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## GAP (13 Apr 2010)

And it never dawned on you, that maybe the problem is you?  :


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## SeanNewman (13 Apr 2010)

matwxx said:
			
		

> ...I learned that Avionics technician are in high demanding in the civil world...
> ...what % of the CF members jump out of the force to work for civil when contract ended?...



Grrr.

So you haven't even joined yet, and you are in the mindset that you want to join specifically to gain skills not used in the military?

While it is certainly your right to do this, as many others have before you, I'm on the side of the fence that kind of frowns on that because those of us who choose to dedicate our lives to the country see that as a "take" mentality vice a "give" mentality that *duty* entails.

Any service is appreciated, but wow...what happens if (gulp) you actually _like it_ in the CF?


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## Strike (13 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Grrr.
> 
> So you haven't even joined yet, and you are in the mindset that you want to join specifically to gain skills not used in the military?
> 
> ...



Given the current add about aircraft techs in the CF, can you blame him?


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## observor 69 (13 Apr 2010)

I spent most of my career as an Avionics tech on the CF-104 Starfighter, CF-101 Voodoo and CF-18. Not much call at Air Canada for computerized fire control system knowledge.   

Guess a posting to Cold Lake or Bagotville might not meet his long term goals.  >


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## SeanNewman (13 Apr 2010)

Strike said:
			
		

> Given the current add about aircraft techs in the CF, can you blame him?



Everyone is responsible for his own level of commitment  

That being said, there is a big difference between what is mentioned above and something like a fighter pilot who after retiring from a full career with the CF has all sorts of useful skills that can be put to good use after he has dedicated 1/3 of his life to Canada.  There is nothing dishonourable about that at all.

Same thing with all the Infantry Tech MWO types who upon retiring go into the small arms business for big money contracts.

That's not using the military as a stepping stone though, because after ~25 years in you've obviously demonstrated that you are a giver not a taker, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Those guys never had any bad faith vibes toward their job, where as if you join with the intent on using the uniform for paid job training that you have no intent on ever giving back to the forces, that is very different.  

It's also honourable to join the forces thinking you'll like it and then getting out earlier than you thought you would because for whatever reason it wasn't what you thought it would be.


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## gcclarke (14 Apr 2010)

There is nothing dishonorable about joining up without the intention of spending 25+ years in. I have no problem whatsoever with the person who comes in the door fully planning on leaving 5 years later. If we, as an organization, did have such a problem with this, would not a person's initial contract cover a much longer time frame?


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## George Wallace (14 Apr 2010)

It is all about "attitude".  Someone stating that they only want the CF to train them for a high paying civie job, so that after their first engagement they can find a good civie job is soooooooo self-centered and really rubs those who have joined the CF to "serve" completely wrong.  Why?  Because it is a colossal waste of time and money on the part of the CF and DND to train a person for a job they don't intend on filling.  It is called "COMMITMENT", and we don't see it in this type of person.


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## gcclarke (14 Apr 2010)

While some of the training money spent on someone could be considered to be "going to waste", I see no reason whatsoever why we should be able to consider ourselves such a good employer that prospective employees should be ready and willing to, despite having no idea whatsoever how the job may or may not actually suit them, stay employed with us until retirement. In this day and age, employees are increasingly fickle. We cannot be expected to somehow remain immune to this. 

And, in my not so humble opinion, the vitriol directed at people who express on this board that they may only want to serve a shorter period of time is both unnecessary and unhelpful. Some of you may view service in the CF as your grand purpose in life. Many others of us expect to get as much out of the CF as we give in. For some, that may be training that could be usable for a later career. For others, it's the light of a pension at the end of a tunnel. To imply that being more motivated by the former rather than the latter is a moral failure is, in my not so humble opinion, a moral failure in and of itself. Your motivations for serving are not the only "correct" motivations. 

And anyways, someone's expectations about the job before they get their foot in the door really doesn't set their career path in stone. For everyone who got in, expecting to stay in this career for life, only to find out that they don't like it and quit 5 years later there is someone who joined, expecting only to stay till the end of their VIE, who instead sticks till they finish their IE 25. 

If the issue of "wasted" training money is that big of a deal, then feel free to pass the suggestion up the chain of command to make all military training incur obligatory service. But I have a feeling the response will be something along the lines of "Are you insane?! That'll kill recruiting" (Edit: I guess this one is moreso for than George.)


Talk of this sort only serves to drive away good people. Good people who might feel that their "loyalty" doesn't meet the "standards" of the CF, standards which, of course, do not actually exist. Good people who might stay in just long enough for us to get some useful work out of them, or who might stay in long enough to hit CRA. Berating people because the reasons that they state for wanting to join don't meet your standards hurts the long term viability of the Canadian Armed Forces, again, in my not so humble opinion.


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## George Wallace (14 Apr 2010)

On your point about "vitriol directed at people who express on this board that they is both unnecessary and unhelpful"  (a rather unintelligible and disjointed statement); I would like to ask you what your feelings are towards "Institutionalized Welfare"?

In essence, that is what many here feel toward a person whose "stated" only purpose of joining the CF is to get the "Free", "paid" education in order to land a good paying job on civie street after only being in the CF long enough to become a trained technician or journeyman in three or four years time.

So if that doesn't equate to another form of Welfare in you books; fine.  It does in others eyes.

However, as you say, and most will agree, there is nothing that can be done to stop this practice.  It will continue to bother many who will continue to question the committment, loyalty, etc. of these people.


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## George Wallace (14 Apr 2010)

Oh!  I might add; it always brings a smile to your face when an year or so later such types come marching back in the gate wearing a CF uniform because they found out that the grass was NOT greener on the other side of the fence.


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## mariomike (14 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Any service is appreciated, but wow...what happens if (gulp) you actually _like it_ in the CF?



I think that feeling you are part of a professional organization, and the loyalty it inspires within you, is something you can't put a price on. The CF offers that. Whatever trade you are in. I have family members who have confirmed that to me.


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## gcclarke (14 Apr 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> On your point about "vitriol directed at people who express on this board that they is both unnecessary and unhelpful"  (a rather unintelligible and disjointed statement); I would like to ask you what your feelings are towards "Institutionalized Welfare"?



Granted, it appears I accidentally deleted part of that sentence. Amended accordingly. 


> In essence, that is what many here feel toward a person whose "stated" only purpose of joining the CF is to get the "Free", "paid" education in order to land a good paying job on civie street after only being in the CF long enough to become a trained technician or journeyman in three or four years time."?


Well, honestly, I do think that any training that confers a qualification that is recognized outside of the CF should incur obligatory service. That having been said, I don't, for example, have a problem with those who, for example, join under the ROTP, graduate, serve out their obligatory service, and move on. Nor do I have a problem with those who get in, get trained in a trade that doesn't confer outside quals, finish out their VIE, and move on. 

Anyways, the idea of paid training is one of the bigger guns in our recruiting arsenal. One can't be shocked when it actually attracts people. 

Oh, and as for the original poster's stated purpose:



			
				matwxx said:
			
		

> I am not joing the force for civy world. But you always have to build another back up plan for yourself. I believe the forces will treat each member equally. Joining the force was my plan 2 years ago. I often see some of the civy corportation recruit people with military experiences, such as the Bombardier, IMP, etc.  So if you fail the exam, you will be released?





> So if that doesn't equate to another form of Welfare in you books; fine.  It does in others eyes.
> 
> However, as you say, and most will agree, there is nothing that can be done to stop this practice.  It will continue to bother many who will continue to question the committment, loyalty, etc. of these people.


The only thing that could be done to stop this practice would be to change our regulations. Increase the length of the VIE perhaps? But I cannot fault someone for playing within the rules of the game that we set. 


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Oh!  I might add; it always brings a smile to your face when an year or so later such types come marching back in the gate wearing a CF uniform because they found out that the grass was NOT greener on the other side of the fence.



Agreed.


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## SeanNewman (14 Apr 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> ... Your motivations for serving are not the only "correct" motivations...



Wrongo bongo.

While I would agree with you that secondary motives (money, pension, life skills. etc) are all individually based, as stated by the CF's Statement of Defence Ethics:

*Serve Canada Before Self.*

The CF has told us we _must_ do that.  We _must _be givers and not takers.

As soon as someone writes a post stating (to paraphrase) "I'd like to use the CF to teach me some skills I can use somewhere else", you are putting yourself before Canada.  This is not my opinion; this is the Duty that all of us have signed up for.


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## Strike (14 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> As soon as someone writes a post stating (to paraphrase) "I'd like to use the CF to teach me some skills I can use somewhere else", you are putting yourself before Canada.  This is not my opinion; this is the Duty that all of us have signed up for.



Really?  So, if someone wants to become an engineer so that they can learn all about water treatment and sewage systems through the CF to then take to civvie side so that they can contribute to an NGO or missionary work in a third world country then they are being selfish?  What about someone who joins the MedO program, does the minimum time, and then decides to get out and work as a GP?  Do you really think they're doing it to help themselves?  Doctors are also there to serve others.

The CF is NOT the only institution that helps others.  It just happens to be one of the few that will train you thoroughly so that you CAN help others.


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## observor 69 (14 Apr 2010)

In my experience your career terms are supposed to be set to a time that would compensate for trades training. 
For example a five year contract including tech training. I could be out of date on the terms but I would expect the same premise holds.

I also remember many times hearing politicans state that it's a good thing the military is a provider of a pool of trained people who get out and contribute their trade skills to the Canadian economy.

It's an old argument but if loyalty was all that was required to keep people in then there wouldn't be spec pay.


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## George Wallace (14 Apr 2010)

Strike said:
			
		

> ....... What about someone who joins the MedO program, does the minimum time, and then decides to get out and work as a GP?



I remember this.

RMC graduate, did Medical School and on graduation immediately opened up a practice in Yellowknife, not wanting to commit to any "Service to Country" in the CF.   The CF trained a doctor, and never got one.  Of course the government tried to recoup some of the monies they spent on this low life, but I am sure they never got much back, perhaps a deal for pennies on the dollar.

That is the type that I really hate.

Yes, there are many who want a good Trade or skill to fall back on when they hit civie street, but there are those who come in like thieves in the night, like the cadet mentioned above.  Those are the ones we are talking about.


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## mariomike (14 Apr 2010)

Strike said:
			
		

> The CF is NOT the only institution that helps others.  It just happens to be one of the few that will train you thoroughly so that you CAN help others.



Help others and you help yourself.


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## gcclarke (14 Apr 2010)

Service Canada before self. Doing so is an action. Something someone does. It has nothing to do with someone's motivation for deciding to serve. Someone can be in for the duration of their VIE, and get out after, while still being a damned good sailor / soldier / airman / airwoman whilst in uniform.

Loyalty. Loyalty to the Crown. Not necessarily to the Canadian Armed Forces. One can be a civilian and still be an especially loyal citizen of our country. One can even be a citizen working in private industry utilizing skills they learned in the CF and still be an especially loyal citizen of our country. After all, who pays our wages? Loyalty is a good reason to join. But it is not the only valid reason. And were it the only acceptable reason to join up, we would very shortly find ourselves desperately short on personnel. You know, more so than we are now. 

Bringing up the MO who decided that he didn't want to be an MO is a red herring. He incurred obligatory service and failed to provide it. Obviously yes, in his case he was in the wrong. Had he served his time and then gotten out, he would not have been in the wrong. 

Again I state my humble opinion that people playing within the rules that we set forth are doing no wrong. Serving out your VIE and then releasing does not make you a bad person. Whether that VIE is long enough is of course a matter of opinion. If you think the rules are flawed, attempt to get them changed. But I still think it is the *absolute height of arrogance* to go on about how someone else's reasons for joining up are "wrong", the obvious implication of course being that you signed on the dotted line for the "right" reasons.


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## geeman (4 Feb 2012)

I was an Aero Engine Tech from 1988 until 1995 when I took FRP upon my release and SCAN stuff I got hooked up with a guy from Alberta Advanced Education and he talked to me about becoming a Millwright.  That was the path that I eventually took and I never looked back.  The few guys that I know that ended up completing the AME stuff are all currently employed so that is a positive.  However as a millwright I ended up in FT Mac working for Shell Canada, with my military background and training, in two different trades as the result of a remuster, my CLC it was less than 1 year before I was working as Plant Turnaround Coordinator, within two years of my start date I was now the Team Lead on a multi-trade team looking after quick response breakdowns kind of liking working in snags at Aircraft Servicing.  There is life after DND but usually you have to find out everything on your own.  Life in industry can be transitioned from either AVN or AVS so pick what ever your heart is leading you to and just be aware of what you have to offer after release as nobody will tell you while you are still serving.

gg


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