# 1 yr required between SHLVW qual & trailor qual (WTF)?



## FEEOP042 (26 Aug 2006)

The MSE OPS tell me that they have to wait a year qualified on a veh before they can get the training on the trailer for that veh. IE they can not tow a 16t trailer for the SHLVW until they have a yr of that veh. That makes no sense. You need to have a driver qualified to tow what ever trail that veh normal tows. Now that Dvr wheeled crses can not teach trailer that it is  separate trg. With the CF so small in numbers we can not afford to wait the year when you need drivers now.


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## Trinity (26 Aug 2006)

Wonder what statistics they used... or ideas to come up with this.

I mean sure driving trailer can be hard.. especially for some and not for others.
I guess they just want more vehicle time/familiarity time before you add on an
extra responsibility.

I might agree if I could see the information they based it upon.  I can drive trailer
with no problem except on MLVW.  Hrm.. who knows..?


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## JSR OP (26 Aug 2006)

FEEOP042 said:
			
		

> The MSE OPS tell me that they have to wait a year qualified on a veh before they can get the training on the trailer for that veh. IE they can not tow a 16t trailer for the SHLVW until they have a yr of that veh. That makes no sense. You need to have a driver qualified to tow what ever trail that veh normal tows. Now that Dvr wheeled crses can not teach trailer that it is  separate trg. With the CF so small in numbers we can not afford to wait the year when you need drivers now.



Have you ever driven an HLVW?  It's not the same as driving your minivan.  On top of having to be qualified for a year on that vehicle to two trailer, did you know that to keep their qualification on that vehicle, that they have to drive a minimum of 500 Km on that veh per year? Same goes for highway coaches, and I'm sure some others as well.

Makes sense to me.


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## Fdtrucker (26 Aug 2006)

The only trailer in the CF that I know of the MSE Ops have to wait a year before they are course loaded is the 15 tonne PLS trailer. They are qual on the SHLVW (16 tonne PLS) for a minimum 1 year. The 15 tonne PLS trailer is not just another hook up and drive away trailer like what is behind vehs such as the LUVW/LSVW/ML/HL or HESV. The Operator must back the SHLVW towards the trailer keeping it line as much as possible so that they can use the Pallet Loading System on the truck to take a seacan or flat rack from the trailer or put from the back of the truck onto the trailer. If this is not not correctly it could damage the truck, trailer and possibly the load that are on the flat rack or in the seacan. Once both truck and trailer are loaded with either flat racks/seacans or a mixture of both the Combined Bridge Classification is C50 (the truck by itself has a Bridge Class of 32). This is in metric tonnes. Put both veh and trailer together and it is as long as some tractor trailer units being driven on roads. To wait a year so the operator can master the truck and operating the CHU and tieing down loads that can come from any Unit within the Brigades properly does not seem long.


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## 392 (26 Aug 2006)

FEEOP042 said:
			
		

> The MSE OPS tell me that they have to wait a year qualified on a veh before they can get the training on the trailer for that veh. IE they can not tow a 16t trailer for the SHLVW until they have a yr of that veh. That makes no sense. You need to have a driver qualified to tow what ever trail that veh normal tows. Now that Dvr wheeled crses can not teach trailer that it is  separate trg. With the CF so small in numbers we can not afford to wait the year when you need drivers now.



This seems to be a 935 thing, as in the Engineer corps, as far as I can remember, our lads do not have to wait a year to tow the Knight trailer after being qualified HESV/HLVW PLS/SHLVW/Kenworth. It's been quite a while since I've been into the 158, but I don't recall reading anywhere about minimum vehicle qualifications times before being allowed to be qualified on a specific trailer. Not saying it's not there, just never seen it myself.

And for the "SME" answers above - perhaps a little insight into the original poster's username would give an idea as to his trade. FEE OP 042 is the old name for Field Engineer Equipment Operator MOC 042, i.e Heavy Equipment operator. I'm sure I do not have to go into great detail as to the equipment / vehicle qualifications these soldiers hold and the weights / tailers lengths / vehicle combinations they use on a regular basis both at home and abroad.

So, please, before the sarcastic answers (i.e. Have you ever driven an HLVW?) come up, at least know the background of the audience you're being sarcastic toward.

And Pit, stop stirring the pot  > . You do enough of that at work...


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## McG (26 Aug 2006)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> Have you ever driven an HLVW?


Yes he has.  All Engineer Equipment operators drive HLVW, HESV, and civi tractors.  Your sarcasm has been wasted.


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## McG (26 Aug 2006)

. . . as an aside, I recently learned that the knight trl that we have in the CERs is not the same piece of equipment that the 935 world has for behind thier SHLVWs.  This could be why policies are not the same.


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## FEEOP042 (26 Aug 2006)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> Have you ever driven an HLVW?  It's not the same as driving your minivan.  On top of having to be qualified for a year on that vehicle to two trailer, did you know that to keep their qualification on that vehicle, that they have to drive a minimum of 500 Km on that veh per year? Same goes for highway coaches, and I'm sure some others as well.
> 
> Makes sense to me.



Yes I'm HLVW, HLVW PLS, HLVW TT and I also Instruct on them. It sounds like you need some more trg I can instruct you on the HLVW with a beavertail trailer and I can have you backing it up and making 90 degree turns backing up with it. 

The min km a year is even more BS. That would make me drive every day and all day on the 30 qualifications on my 404's. It is not the driving it is what the veh is intended for where they need more hrs like if it is a PLS / CHU or BAPS. So there is no damage. It sounds like who ever made this stuff up was not trained by me and I have instructed a lot of HLVW and HESV crses and I can say with out a doubt that I would put my students up against any one out there to show the quality. I have said time and time again that it is not the so called km's set out in the CTP. If the student can not shift gears or back up trailers or handle the truck in tight spots that is where you need to spend the time on crse. Any one can drive down the highway after getting it in to gear and don't have to back up.


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## JSR OP (27 Aug 2006)

sorry, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, and obviously I am way out of my lane.  I digress.


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## TN2IC (27 Aug 2006)

The min km I think is BS. But if you don't need the qualifications they can be removed them just that easy. As for the question, my best answer is to look up in the 158 under TD's is my guess. 

Let me see if I can find a link for you.


Here we go...This is only DIN access ....

http://lognet.dwan.dnd.ca/dlogsvs/tn/tn3/manual/a-lm-158-005_ag-001/index_e.htm


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## Wookilar (27 Aug 2006)

Min km IS bull. Try being a Veh Tech, with all the different types of Veh's I am qualified on/work on every week, but now I can't take one out for a test drive after I work on it because I haven't driven 500 km this year in that class. It's all crap and has a number of ramifications that the high and mighty in the MSE world never fully thought out when these new rules were put in place.

What about the LAV III/Coyote drivers? How are you supposed to keep track of the coy/troop drivers so everyone that needs to stay qualified does?

How about the HL Wrecker? How is a Recovery Section supposed to work when only a few people have the km's they need.

   This really needs to be looked at from a fleet-wide and all affected trades perspective, not just one trade. This causes some serious manning issues that are not going to get better with the movement training centres standing up and everyone going to Wainwright/Meaford on buses instead of driving their LS/ML/HL/LAV, etc. 
   One round trip from Edmonton to Wainwright would qualify one person per veh for the next year. Given the training tempo that we experienced in 1 VP for the last few years (except this last year, of course) we went someplace about 4-6 times a year (not including PCF cycles).

And TN2IC: some trades need to drive more than one or two classes of veh's on a daily basis (i.e. sappers and grease monkeys) short distances. Telling me that I obviously don't need LAVIII or HL Wrecker on my 404's anymore (because I did not get 500 km on either this year), is not thinking outside the SEV box. This creates some serious manning issues (not to mention some very serious job satisfaction issues that need to be rectified).

I really hope that this issue is reevaluated long before I get to be in charge. If not, I'll do it then. ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Aug 2006)

Empire building at it's best! ;D


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## George Wallace (27 Aug 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Empire building at it's best! ;D



Exactly!

Now......Does this mean that you will no longer be trained on your D&M Crse to drive with the trailer, but now be required to come back a year later and take another Crse just to pull a trailer? 

Do you think someone in the 'Puzzle Palace' doesn't have enough to do to keep the CF on track, without dreaming up stupid things to justify his/her existence?  Must be looking for a large budget to create all these new Crses.


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## TN2IC (27 Aug 2006)

Wookilar, I know where you are coming from. Just give it a year or two and MSE higher ups will clue in.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Aug 2006)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Just give it a year or two and MSE higher ups will clue in.



 In a year or two you'll have no one qualified outside MSE, and they won't have enough drivers and equipment to move all the Units that lost the capability because of some short sighted Master Driver. This is just pompous arrogance at the pinnacle. Someone who is so out of touch with how the military works that they can't see the forest for the green trees of envy. Everyone wants a bigger role and slice of the pie, and that's natural and allowed, but to get it by destroying an existing capability is ludicrous.


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## Fdtrucker (29 Aug 2006)

Now......Does this mean that you will no longer be trained on your D&M Crse to drive with the trailer, but now be required to come back a year later and take another Crse just to pull a trailer?

The vehs and trailer that you get qual on your D&M/LFC DRV WH Crses will be put on your DND 404's and your E-416's. You will see this under qualification as T1 or possibly T2 depending what vehicle module you are doing. Not everyone in LFC (both RegF or PRes) will get LU/LS/ML/HL all at once. So trg on the 3/4, 1 1/2 trl and 2 1/2 water trls will give you your qual. There is no Min. km for Trailers as Ottawa and LFC have agreed to drivers are to keep current on SMP vehs/Hvy Equip/TT/buses etc. How are unit dispatcher going to know if you have done your min kms on a said veh? Only way to change your qual on your E-416 on FMS from Qual to Inactive is someone from YOUR Unit who has access to your Unit Data Base. This could be your Tpt Sgt/WO or Dispatcher. Seeing we don't have the Web Base FMS here, I can't answer this. The min kms or hours depending on vehs will hurt all Units and trades. Did you know that for a MSE Op to get qual SHLVW they must be qual on the HLVW for 2 Years or qual 1 year on HLVW and Tractor trailer for 1 year with a waiver from the next higher command.


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## gaspasser (30 Aug 2006)

TN2IC, Min kms is only for bus and Tractor-trailor because if you don't *operate* those vehicles that often then you loose your "touch".  And I think the need to be qual'd for a year on a large piece of equipment such as the HLVW and larger is so the operator becomes accustomed to the size, weight and handling characteristics of that particular vehicle before they can add even more weight to the arse end.  I've seen many hotdog drivers who think they can do it only to screw it up and roll.  Hence, more time behind the wheel. but, I have also seen some good operators who are being held back and chomping at the bit to get going.  I'm all for graduated licencing which is what you get when you become and MSE Op.  I'm not sure about the FEE quals, but any smart safety section NCO will hold the progressve licencing attitude.  
    As a side note, I have seen (and DO NOT agree with) new QL3 privates training on T/T's and Refuelers before they even have 10k's on smaller vehicles.  an 18000 liter refueler sure feels different than driving dad's old Chevy!  _Live load _ vs. dead load.
  And as we MSEOps all know, _any good driver worth his salt should be able to turn a corner, light a smoke, and shift without grinding_
  Out


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## Nfld Sapper (30 Aug 2006)

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> TN2IC, Min kms is only for bus and Tractor-trailor because if you don't *operate* those vehicles that often then you loose your "touch".  And I think the need to be qual'd for a year on a large piece of equipment such as the HLVW and larger is so the operator becomes accustomed to the size, weight and handling characteristics of that particular vehicle before they can add even more weight to the arse end.



Not entirely true there, as an Engineer that just did the Heavy Equipment Op Course, we started almost immediately towing trailers with heavy loads. We spent maybe one or two days just driving an empty 8-ton Dump and then moved on to towing them with a loaded 15-ton Beaver Tail.


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## Fdtrucker (31 Aug 2006)

NLFD_SAPPER there is a lots of difference between the 15 ton beaver tail behind a heavy call sign to a 15 tonne PLS (allet Loading System) trailer they are talking about on this forum. Putting a seacan or flat rack from a SHLVW to the  trailer or taking the the flat rack or seacan from the trailer to the S


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## aesop081 (31 Aug 2006)

Fdtrucker said:
			
		

> NLFD_SAPPER there is a lots of difference between the 15 ton beaver tail behind a heavy call sign to a 15 tonne PLS (allet Loading System) trailer they are talking about on this forum. Putting a seacan or flat rack from a SHLVW to the  trailer or taking the the flat rack or seacan from the trailer to the S



I took my HLVW/Kenworth course and worked with the flatrack trailers right away....Its not that difficult to work or handle.  Even hadling the CHU and the trailers isnt that difficult


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## Fdtrucker (31 Aug 2006)

NLFD_SAPPER there is a lots of difference between the 15 ton beaver tail behind a heavy call sign to a 15 tonne PLS (Pallet Loading System) trailer (notice the imperial to metric and the PL System) they are talking about on this forum. Height and length as well as well hooking up are different. Putting a seacan or flat rack from a SHLVW to the  trailer or taking the flat rack or seacan from the trailer to the SHLVW (SUPER HLVW).  The flat rack must be deployed to the ground to load and then lifted up using the hydraulic system on both truck and trl or using the Container Handling Unit (CHU) to lift the seacans to and from the ground or truck or trl. These vehs and trailer are only found mostly at at RegF Svc Bn or some Base Tpt and have a separate CTP for qualification. Though a bunch of 2 RCHA pers were qual in 98 for a Roto for SFOR it is OSQ for 935/00171.01 MSE Ops only. Sorry about posting an unfinished msg but the fat fingers got in the way.


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## 392 (1 Sep 2006)

Fdtrucker said:
			
		

> NLFD_SAPPER there is a lots of difference between the 15 ton beaver tail behind a heavy call sign to a 15 tonne PLS (Pallet Loading System) trailer (notice the imperial to metric and the PL System) they are talking about on this forum. Height and length as well as well hooking up are different. Putting a seacan or flat rack from a SHLVW to the  trailer or taking the flat rack or seacan from the trailer to the SHLVW (SUPER HLVW).  The flat rack must be deployed to the ground to load and then lifted up using the hydraulic system on both truck and trl or using the Container Handling Unit (CHU) to lift the seacans to and from the ground or truck or trl. These vehs and trailer are only found mostly at at RegF Svc Bn or some Base Tpt and have a separate CTP for qualification. Though a bunch of 2 RCHA pers were qual in 98 for a Roto for SFOR *it is OSQ for 935/00171.01 MSE Ops only*. Sorry about posting an unfinished msg but the fat fingers got in the way.



Are you telling me that SHLVW and CHU are a 935-only gig? I for one, call BS. 

And, not to sound demeaning or anything, but please stop blowing sunshine up your own ass by trying to give technical-sounding descriptions of how PLS systems work, and how towing this and that is different from anything we use. Ever taken a stroll around a CER's compound and noticed the PLS pallets full of TONS of bridging pieces or defensive stores, MFR/MFB pontoons, MECC shelters, heavy equipment, etc. that require T/T's, PLS trucks AND their associated trailers to move from A to B? We are quite aware of how these systems work, and what the level of experience/qualification is that our troops require to move them.


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## TN2IC (1 Sep 2006)

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> As a side note, I have seen (and DO NOT agree with) new QL3 privates training on T/T's and Refuelers before they even have 10k's on smaller vehicles.  an 18000 liter refueler sure feels different than driving dad's old Chevy!  _Live load _ vs. dead load.
> And as we MSEOps all know, _any good driver worth his salt should be able to turn a corner, light a smoke, and shift without grinding_
> Out



As I just finshed teaching a Res QL3 course, we don't cover refuelers. Just SMP's only. And thank god. I am just waiting for my former students to get their first live load. It should be intresting times, but with me teaching their should be no problems. *Cross my fingers* Just my former troops with normal DG makes me think.

As for the whole SHLVW, I don't drive it. So I can't say.. the closest thing I have to HLVW Wrecker. =)

Happy Trucking to My Other Fellow MSE Ops..

And Chimo to my Sapper Buddies..


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## Nfld Sapper (1 Sep 2006)

392 said:
			
		

> Are you telling me that SHLVW and CHU are a 935-only gig? I for one, call BS.
> 
> And, not to sound demeaning or anything, but please stop blowing sunshine up your own ass by trying to give technical-sounding descriptions of how PLS systems work, and how towing this and that is different from anything we use. Ever taken a stroll around a CER's compound and noticed the PLS pallets full of TONS of bridging pieces or defensive stores, MFR/MFB pontoons, MECC shelters, heavy equipment, etc. that require T/T's, PLS trucks AND their associated trailers to move from A to B? We are quite aware of how these systems work, and what the level of experience/qualification is that our troops require to move them.



Well said 392 we do have alot of equipment that must be put on loadbeds, flat racks, and trailers.  A seacan on a flat rack or on a trailer doesn't have a mind of its on where as a zoom boom or the loader backhoe on a trailer do.


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## Fdtrucker (2 Sep 2006)

392
Yet to answer some or your question.  Only Reg SC Ban have the SHLVW and 15 Tonne PLS tr ls. But like I said in a earlier post Mrs of 2 RCHA were quail for a Root in 1998 only. What CER's have/had are the HESV (not a SMP Veg) the old HLVW DFRS or even the older Kenworth 15 (again not a SMP Veh). The trailer that were with the old Kenworth are out of the system or re configured to the HESV? Can they operate a PLS and PLS trailer - I would think yes. But are they driving SHLVW and the trailer made for them, I don't think so. SHLVW is a SMP and the HESV a Standard Commercial veh. I have not seen a SHLVW in 2 or 1 CER when I was Pet or now that I am in Edmonton. Just to give us insight in MY qual I operated the old 5 ton bridging equip in Chilliwack while on multiple 1 Cer Bridge camps, the HLVW DFRS including BAPS, Kenworth 15 ton and trl, and the SHLVW when it first came out while on IFOR roto 0 in 1996. While CER has multiple type of equip they carry on their vehs from their Regt the MSE Ops have a Brigade/ASG equip they carry on their vehs and trls. A SHLVW or HESV qual mbr will be able to adapt to different PLS vehs and PLS trailers depending on how well they are good as being Operaters.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Sep 2006)

Get over it and quit pissing up the wall. You guys aren't some sort of magical truck drivers. Boiled down to the lowest common denominator, it's still empire building. Everyone has their specialties, but this is pushing it a bit far.


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## m1075 (2 Apr 2007)

I'm looking for pics and information on the SHLVW and the PLS trailer (made by Knight).  Can anyone point me in the right direction for additional information?  Does anyone have any pics?


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## TN2IC (2 Apr 2007)

What sort of information on the SHLVW are you looking for? General Specs? Drop me a PM if you need so.


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Apr 2007)

IIRC the main difference between the HLVW and SHLVW would be,

SHLVW has dual wheels on the intermediate and rear axles and a different engine/transmission combination.

But I think TN2IC can fill you in better than I could.


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## TN2IC (2 Apr 2007)

Don't steal me thunder Sapper B'y.


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Apr 2007)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Don't steal me thunder Sapper B'y.



That's why I said this:



			
				Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> But I think TN2IC can fill you in better than I could.



BTW I think you need the patch  ;D


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## TN2IC (2 Apr 2007)

I am on the patch, that is the problem.


Back on track now troops.


Regards,
TN2IC


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Apr 2007)

Patch must not be big enough  ;D

<edit>

Ok no more jabs out in the open  we'll be moving this to PM's ;D


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