# Another Boring Rant on US Politics



## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Moore shapes data - He does not specifically lie - but with editting and casual usage of terms he gives his audience an impression that it not factual or truthful.



Moore isn't the problem. Fat, apathetic sheep posing as Americans is the problem.

The Bush administration didn't report and give out any false information, did they? Oh no! Not Bush. Afterall God Himself talks to Twiggy.

Yeah, the USA is on a mission to free the world! Isn't that grand! Hmmm, where will the great Bush takes us next? 

Africa? Nah, no gain in going there. Freedom crusaders for the world. What a crock of crapola and people keep buying it. 

Bah, bah, bahhhhhhhhhhhh ... land of the sheep.


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## 1feral1 (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Africa? Nah, no gain in going there. Freedom crusaders for the world. What a crock of crapola and people keep buying it.



Humm, I though the USA gives heaps of different types assistance to Africa (agricultural/technical etc), not including the tonnes of US cash for AIDS assistance/prevention/care/drugs/doctors which is a plague throughout Africa in itself.

What do you want done in Africa anyways? 

What about the assistance going on in Aceh? The US were the first in!


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Humm, I though the USA gives heaps of different types assistance to Africa (agricultural/technical etc), not including the tonnes of US cash for AIDS assistance/prevention/care/drugs/doctors which is a plague throughout Africa in itself.
> 
> What do you want done in Africa anyways?



Oh, I dunno. The Bush administration continually changes its reasons for invading Iraq. I think but I'm not sure, lol, they've settled on being freedom crusaders for the world (so they say). I figure they went in to liberate "cough, cough" the Iraqi people, why not run off to Africa.

They have A LOT of mass graves there as well.  :skull:

What do you wanna bet, does the US go to Africa or not? Of course, this is a gentleman's bet. Lol, but you'll have to excuse me, as I'm a lady.

Hehehe, I'm kind of fun, huh?


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Hehehe, I'm kind of fun, huh?



That's yet to be determined . I'd like to know how you came by the site? I'm sure you read the forum rules first, then perused a number of posts before you waded in? That being the case, of course, and being able to ascertain the bent of the majority here, I'm curious as to your reasons for your postings. You have not filled in your profile, hence we know nothing about you or your agenda. Before we continue discourse with you, how about filling in the blanks for us. For all intensive purposes and on the face of it, it simply looks like your another Bush basher wishing only to slag what you perceive is bad about your current administration, without confirming any good it's doing. If that's the case, I doubt whether you'll receive many responses.


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's yet to be determined . I'd like to know how you came by the site? I'm sure you read the forum rules first, then perused a number of posts before you waded in? That being the case, of course, and being able to ascertain the bent of the majority here, I'm curious as to your reasons for your postings. You have not filled in your profile, hence we know nothing about you or your agenda. Before we continue discourse with you, how about filling in the blanks for us. For all intensive purposes and on the face of it, it simply looks like your another Bush basher wishing only to slag what you perceive is bad about your current administration, without confirming any good it's doing. If that's the case, I doubt whether you'll receive many responses.



Actually, I stumbled upon this site quite by mistake. Here you wanna laugh, lol. When I first saw the CA, I thought cool, let's check out what our people in CALIFORNIA think. Oh my, I slay myself, lol. Then I noticed all of the red maple leaves. Oh, too funny and I'm not even a natural blonde. You see, that's the thing isn't it? If one disagrees with the Bush administration, they're a 'Bush Basher".

My understanding of American history is this, when one questions and challenges the actions of its government out of sincere concern, it is 'suppose' to be okay. In the past, it was 'patriotic' to do so. However, now we have entered a new era. The era of 'you're either with us or against us' era. Now, people such as myself are lefties, Bush bashing fools who wouldn't know a good war if it came up and bit them in ***!

No person runs from a fight, when the choice to fight is made from a place of integrity and need. 

I'm sorry, the Bush administration has shown me, it comes from neither place. 

No, I didn't look over the entire site to plot out my evil mastermind agenda. Once I realized the CA stood for Canada, lol and not California, I wanted to see what Canadians thought in the area of politics. As far as I know, this is the only area I am posting in. I still haven't figured this site out yet. I'm a woman and I live in Las Vegas, NV. I grew up with three brothers and so I guess, I like a heated discussion, lol. No biggie. I can be a little sweetie as well. I'll mind my manners, etc, etc. I will very politely and very lady like um, discuss the political arena. 

Anyway, fun is in the eye of the beholder. 

As you stated, this remains to be seen.

Magie

PS - Come on! You have to admit the CA = California is too funny.   ;D


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## Cliff (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> However, now we have entered a new era. The era of 'you're either with us or against us' era.



The phrase is likely rooted in the NT. _He who is not with me is against me_ = Matthew 12:30   It is a reflection of our times, even for anarchists with "steel toed boots".


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## a_majoor (26 Jan 2005)

And here I figured the total cold shoulder "the Left" is giving MM should sum up the story; he failed in his quest to unseat the President, so he has outlived his usefulness to the Democrat's "Powers that be".

His crude and simplistic propaganda was probably appropriate for the time and intended audience, but for movie fans who do not have access to Sergi Eisenstien or Leni Riefenstahl and want to see a really gorgious propaganda film, look up "Hero" by director Zhang Yimou, which has the subtle message that Tiawan is also part of China, and even the most ruthless means are admissable to reach that end.


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> If one disagrees with the Bush administration, they're a 'Bush Basher".
> My understanding of American history is this, when one questions and challenges the actions of its government out of sincere concern, it is 'suppose' to be okay. In the past, it was 'patriotic' to do so. However, now we have entered a new era. The era of 'you're either with us or against us' era. Now, people such as myself are lefties, Bush bashing fools who wouldn't know a good war if it came up and bit them in ***!



There is a MASSIVE difference between intelligently questioning and debating the policies of your government, and blindly and maliciously slagging the administration for any and all actions they chose to take.  You're absolutely right that it's patriotic to question ones government when you feel they may be wrong.  There is however NOTHING patriotic about crticizing the government by constantly repeating the praty line; the same tired drivel.  Do some research, find some new material, demonstrate that there is SOMETHING wrong being done.  Be productive.  Then you'll be a patriot.  Otherwise you're just a detractor.


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> There is a MASSIVE difference between intelligently questioning and debating the policies of your government, and blindly and maliciously slagging the administration for any and all actions they chose to take.   You're absolutely right that it's patriotic to question ones government when you feel they may be wrong.   There is however NOTHING patriotic about crticizing the government by constantly repeating the praty line; the same tired drivel.   Do some research, find some new material, demonstrate that there is SOMETHING wrong being done.   Be productive.   Then you'll be a patriot.   Otherwise you're just a detractor.



Um, rather judgemental of you, yes? No? You presume much. How do you know what I have done or do?

It seems, (I could be wrong) that you feel all is well in Disneyland. Let me assure you, it is not.

Party line? Isn't that what the majority of people do? Besides, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an American. An American who doesn't approve of her government's actions. What do you suggest? Shall I join a group of dissatisfied Americans and march on Washington? I've already done this. Shall I write my Congressman? I've already done this. Shall I write into the newspapers/editor? Already have. How about talk radio? Yep, I've called in before. Post in an on online forum? As you can see, I do this as well. Oh, I know, vote! Yeah, I voted. Perhaps, I should be a good lil' sheep and go graze awhile in front of the propaganda box? Face it, what can I really *do*? So, I rip a one liner here and there about 'The Twigster', so what. Do you think Bush or any of his followers supporters really care? Come on, that's a big nada, zippo, zilch and no. I mean, look at Bush's choices thus far. Does he really care what the world community thinks about him/his policies? Nope. I think it's his arrogance and smugness that irks me the most. He's a puppet to his own party, which by the way, grows further and further away from its roots. In fact, The Twig belongs to a new breed of so called, Republicans. 

No, all is not well in Disneyland.

Corporations and greed run everything. It's time to expand and broaden the big, bottomline under the guise of being freedom fighters.

How perfect. Brilliant really. Nothing like getting the people you're screwing to support you while you screw them. 

Anyway, it's a new day in Vegas and I have much to do. 

One thing you might consider. I haven't attacked anyone here, have I? No, I haven't.

You've heard of the Golden Rule, right? If not, Google it.

Have a great day and cya later.


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## muskrat89 (26 Jan 2005)

Sounds like you have some unresolved issues, pobrecita   :crybaby:

Both sides can't win an election... sorry


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## Stefan Moxness (26 Jan 2005)

I know I'll probably draw some fire for this one but that's I think I can deal with that.  I'm assuming that MagieNoire has in fact done all the things she mentioned, I have no reason to not believe her seeing as I don't know the person.  If in fact, she has written her congressman, voted, marched on Washington, etc... then she is in fact a patriotic person simply voicing her opinion, as she said, sure she throws around the one-liners here and there, but I'd really like to meet the person on this site who at one time or another hasn't done likewise when speaking against something they truly dislike.  As far as both parties not being able to win an election, that's definitely true, but what is wrong in arguing for a government that fulfills your wishes, that's what she's saying, she disapproves of what the Bush administration is doing, maybe she doesn't like the leftwing either, maybe she should vote green (do they have a green party in the US?).

Either way all she's doing is voicing her opinion against what she doesn't approve of and has been thoroughly attacked for it, I've seen many names here who've in the past told people to not attack someones opinion for the simple fact that it disagrees with their own do exactly that to this person.  Can we stop having a damn yelling match and instead have a proper civil debate about this? why is it that so few can remain polite when their political views are being questioned by another? come on now, grow up, Take it like a man (or woman) and civilly counter the person with good, founded arguments proving otherwise.


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## Stefan Moxness (26 Jan 2005)

And by the way, wasn't this post about the validity of MM as a documentary film maker (or whatever the hell the goof is)? Where has that part of the argument gone?


_Edit by Recceguy:_

It's been split off and renamed "Another Boring Rant....."


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> What do you suggest? Shall I join a group of dissatisfied Americans and march on Washington? I've already done this. Shall I write my Congressman? I've already done this. Shall I write into the newspapers/editor? Already have. How about talk radio? Yep, I've called in before. Post in an on online forum? As you can see, I do this as well. Oh, I know, vote! Yeah, I voted. Perhaps, I should be a good lil' sheep and go graze awhile in front of the propaganda box? Face it, what can I really *do*? So, I rip a one liner here and there about 'The Twigster', so what. Do you think Bush or any of his followers supporters really care? Come on, that's a big nada, zippo, zilch and no. I mean, look at Bush's choices thus far. Does he really care what the world community thinks about him/his policies? Nope. I think it's his arrogance and smugness that irks me the most. He's a puppet to his own party, which by the way, grows further and further away from its roots. In fact, The Twig belongs to a new breed of so called, Republicans.



I'd much rather see a statement like "I've read the 9/11 comission report front to back" or "I've conducted extensive research on the economic impact of the war on American society" or "I've gathered statistics conclusively demonstrating the negative impact of the war on the Iraqi people".   You think taking part in a march is going to impress anyone here?   Well let me disabuse you of that notion.   We are quite aware that the majority of people taking part in these marches have no clue why they're there.   If you want to walk around yelling and screaming about how "twiggy" is the new Hitler, you go right ahead, just don't expect anyone here to take you seriously after that.   You might think nobody cares when you insult Bush and the US admin, but I certainly do, and I can gaurantee that the staff here will frown upon it.   Your "jokes" look foolish and immature and, even though this isn't an official forum of the Canadian Forces, we do NOT want to be associated with them.   You want to have a logical, inteligent debate about different aspects of US policy, fine.   This board in general isn't intended for politics, however we do have a political threads so there's nothing wrong with holding civilized discussions.   However you will notice that there are no forums entitled "slag-Bush-here", so if your only intent is to make unfounded and petty jabs at the President or the administration I'd suggest you leave before you're removed.


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> I'd much rather see a statement like "I've read the 9/11 comission report front to back" or "I've conducted extensive research on the economic impact of the war on American society" or "I've gathered statistics conclusively demonstrating the negative impact of the war on the Iraqi people".   You think taking part in a march is going to impress anyone here?   Well let me disabuse you of that notion.   We are quite aware that the majority of people taking part in these marches have no clue why they're there.   If you want to walk around yelling and screaming about how "twiggy" is the new Hitler, you go right ahead, just don't expect anyone here to take you seriously after that.   You might think nobody cares when you insult Bush and the US admin, but I certainly do, and I can gaurantee that the staff here will frown upon it.   Your "jokes" look foolish and immature and, even though this isn't an official forum of the Canadian Forces, we do NOT want to be associated with them.   You want to have a logical, inteligent debate about different aspects of US policy, fine.   This board in general isn't intended for politics, however we do have a political threads so there's nothing wrong with holding civilized discussions.   However you will notice that there are no forums entitled "slag-Bush-here", so if your only intent is to make unfounded and petty jabs at the President or the administration I'd suggest you leave before you're removed.



I wasn't aware that I had to impress you, oh great one. I didn't realize this was an agree with us, or get lost, or we will REMOVE you site.

I watched the entire (9/11 commission)   sham and read it as well. Big deal and goody, goody for me.   Oh I listen to you and your mentality all of the time. Like I said, it's a new era. I don't agree with you, so I don't count. Yeah, right-o. I did stay on topic. I said, MM was basically full of it but the Bush administration was just as or more full of it. I see, the only way to discuss anything here is if I AGREE with the general consensus. I have NOT attacked a single person at this website. Yet, you feel entitled to do so with regard to me. Double standards must be the standard here. Bush and his corporate flunkies are hardly Hitler, not even close. What is happening with MY government and others is much more subtle. No freaky, way out looney tunes conspiracy. Those are a waste of time. Still, MY government no longer represents what America is suppose to be about.

You love Bush so much, why not take him to Canada. 

Lol, as far as the steel toed remark. Give me a break. I certainly am about as nonviolent as they come. I'm sure none of you EVER make wise cracks like mine. Nah, not you guys. Well, I met one kind person who seemed fair and so this site wasn't a total wash. The gentleman (I might add) is from Australia. I believe his name is Wes. Anyway, a big thank you to Wes. It was nice chatting with you and I appreciate your kindness and respect. Good luck in your new paradise, it looks fabulous!

As for you, sir. Good day.


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## Gouki (26 Jan 2005)

I will be the first to agree with you, MagieNoire. I really love this site but I've seen now on a few occasions how people that don't always agree get in trouble. It hasn't really been a big problem really, but it does seem to be a recurring trend.

As far as your feelings about 48Highlander, without too much detail, I agree completely.. but will leave it there to not start anything up.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Still, MY government no longer represents what America is suppose to be about.



His re-election seems to have you in a minority over there



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> You love Bush so much, why not take him to Canada.



I'd love to. Might add some backbone to our government.


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## Gouki (26 Jan 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'd love to. Might add some backbone to our government.



Woah woah .. wait a minute.

Backbone..? Canada..? Government..? Add..?

Alright, forgive the Family Guy style thing there, but we won't see anything close to a backbone until we drive the Liberals out of Canada and into the Atlantic ocean.


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## Slim (26 Jan 2005)

> Still, MY government no longer represents what America is suppose to be about.



I think it does...Its just that people like yourself see that the U.S. is a free and prosperous nation but forget that there is a pricetag to go along with that.

I also believe that the Lefties are actaully a minority...Its just that no one ever bothers to report on George W being popular because whiners make much better press.

Slim


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2005)

See Steve, we're not that far apart!


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> His re-election seems to have you in a minority over there



By a very narrow margin. The division in our country is very disheartening. 

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -- Thomas Jefferson

TJ, the American people have not been vigilant. Now, Americans along with the world will pay a price. Sad but true.

Yeah, *re*-election, sure whatever you say. What does it matter anymore.


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> I think it does...Its just that people like yourself see that the U.S. is a free and prosperous nation but forget that there is a pricetag to go along with that.
> 
> I also believe that the Lefties are actaully a minority...Its just that no one ever bothers to report on George W being popular because whiners make much better press.
> 
> Slim



This post is representitive of this site's acceptable posting?

Yet, more snide comments and personal attacks. Lefties, whiners? People like yourself? Half of Americans (people like myself) feel as I do.

This post isn't worth any further response.


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

Steve said:
			
		

> Woah woah .. wait a minute.
> 
> Backbone..? Canada..? Government..? Add..?
> 
> Alright, forgive the Family Guy style thing there, but we won't see anything close to a backbone until we drive the Liberals out of Canada and into the Atlantic ocean.



You're talking about your fellow countrymen. Lefties again?

So, is this site to be labled 'The Canadian Right Wing'?

I guess, I get it now, I'm on the wrong side. Hence, the attacks. 

Shameful behavior.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2005)

Hey now it's time for you and me
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Come on now we're marching to the sea
Got a revolution Got to revolution
Who will take it from you
We will and who are we
We are volunteers of America

- Jefferson Airplane

Hey Gracie, the balls in your court.


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## muskrat89 (26 Jan 2005)

> MY government



I thought it was a Government "of the people"   

Frankly, you sound like a sore loser to me........


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## Slim (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> This post is representitive of this site's acceptable posting?
> 
> Yet, more snide comments and personal attacks. Lefties, whiners? People like yourself? Half of Americans (people like myself) feel as I do.
> 
> This post isn't worth any further response.



And another thing...! :


Freedom isn't free Maggie. You aught to be proud that you have a leader who has the inner strength to stand up to those free-people-hating wackjobs in the Middle East and say "No more!" 

Unfortunately when you live in a great country like the U.S. you have to be continuously vigilant and occasionally, be ready to pay the piper when the time comes to defend it.

You also have the right to leave and go elsewhere if you hate it that much! That's what freedom means!


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> You're talking about your fellow countrymen. Lefties again?
> 
> So, is this site to be labled 'The Canadian Right Wing'?



Not really. It speaks to all our politicians.


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## Gouki (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> You're talking about your fellow countrymen. Lefties again?
> 
> So, is this site to be labled 'The Canadian Right Wing'?
> 
> ...



Hey .. don't convulute the issue here and make it what you want to be to suit your own views..

I took that political compass test about an hour ago in light of all this political talk. I barely scored left wing, I was mostly in the center and down a bit .. I know the top is Authoritarian, but I forgot the bottom .. perhaps Socialism or Anarchism? Hell if I know, point is I scored almost in the middle.

I don't care for this left and right belief BS. I care about what is working, and what is not working. Under the Liberal Government, both with Chretien and Martin, we have had the horrendous failure of gun control and registration, that 1 billion HRDC "boondoggle" and the subsequent scandals and cover ups, and even more broken promises and lies (I remember when he said he would provide a large military budget increase, and I thought "yes Uncle Pauly, I'll sooner see Muslims and Jews dancing in the streets under a rainbow") and in the end result - where has Canada gone? Absolutely no where. Except now we pissed away some more money and broke our military machine even more. Maybe one day they will realize that it's a noble idea to not want to make war but there are those who do, and you can either defend yourself or roll over like a sucker? Simply put, if I said to you "I'm going to punch you in the face and nothing will dissuade me from doing so" you can either defend yourself or stand there and get smoked. With the Liberal action regarding our military, they are adopting the "I'm going to stand like an idiot hippy and shower myself with rose petals" - you think anyone who wants to hurt us is going to run away because they respect our peaceful nature or fear our flowers? Not bloody friggen likely.

The Liberals are a failure, and I was upset when the PC's lost to them. I didn't vote this year (on the account the base's idea here of publicizing voting booths was a small sign on the bulletin board in the Canex) but I am definately voting for Harper next election. I don't like the NDP's and the Green Party, the Bloc Quebecois can kiss my Anglo-Canadian ass and the Liberals ... well, we just covered their "successes"

I want Canada to go somewhere. I am tired of feeling like my country is adrift in a still pond, siphoning off of the United States.

I usually don't say too much about my own beliefs (never explain, never defend) but the current state in Canada and over the last decade is ridiculous .. when will the people wake up and realize we need a change?


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> You're talking about your fellow countrymen. Lefties again?
> 
> So, is this site to be labled 'The Canadian Right Wing'?
> 
> ...



*sigh*

Typical.  As soon as someone dares to disagree with you, it's an attack and an oppresion of your rights.  Next you'll be calling us racist and sexist.  I get enough of that nonsense on university campuses and anti-war rallies.  This isn't the place for it.


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## MagieNoire (26 Jan 2005)

You know what it all comes down to, integrity.

We are a two party system. Ha, ha, ha the Green Party and stooges. We have Republicans and Democrats. Both are run by corporations. This is the way it is and if you believe otherwise, you're fooling yourself. There isn't anything wrong with either ideology, when they are implemented with INTEGRITY. That is what is lacking. I could vote either way, IF I believed the policies would be implemented with integrity. Of course, we all know, that's not going to happen. I apologize, I don't know a lot about your government but *if* they are like mine, they no longer represent the people. Not rightwing or lefties or greenies but the people.They make concessions to be elected and then break them. In fact, I believe they thrive on the division and help to widen it. Ultimately, it falls on the people's back for allowing its government to become more than an administration of the people's affairs. As I mentioned before, we have not been vigilant.

I support the military. I support dropping terrorist where the stand. However, I do not support westernizing the middle east at the expense of my brothers and sisters blood. I do not support a government who has used a tragic day in our country's history to further it's political agenda. I do not savor my government feeding on our patriotism and fear as fuel for its endeavors.  


I'm not a rightwinger, a lefty or a green whatever. I am an American. My team, is America. 

My country is deeply divided. A people, a country cannot survive so divided. Eventually, it will fall. I believe our politicians like us to be divided. It helps their agendas. And the American people, happily graze on the 10 second sound bites from whichever bias new or talk show they feel comfortable with, and accept the opinions as their own. Few question. Thus, they are sheep in my mind. I wish them no harm but wish they would wake the h*ll up! My 10 year old son knows more about politics and world events than most adults. Hence, bah, bah, bah.

I am afraid for my country. It has strayed far from its origin. Now, comes more of a melding of church and state. It goes far beyond Iraq.

Normally, I would feel relatively proud to be American, but I find myself feeling ashamed. We have so much and are misusing it and taking it for granted. I am a strong spirited woman. It is my nature. My motto follows a quote from Star Wars, "Do or do not. There is no try."

Yet, what is to be done? Pray? Yeah, sure. I'll pray. Sigh, it is the same as it ever was. Only now, it's getting worse. A new era is upon us.

God help us all.

These are my feelings. Nothing more or less. You are not required to like them or agree with them. They merely are.


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## Jungle (26 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> What do you wanna bet, does the US go to Africa or not?


They did in the past... remember Somalia ?? I guess the USA went there to exploit the ressource-rich country... especially the oil   :
The USA went to Somalia with good intentions, and were abandonned by the UN. They were forced to pull out and Somalia was to go through 10 more years of anarchy. What was the wrong decision: to send troops to Somalia or to pull out before the job was done ? Maybe you should ask Clinton...
So, where are all those US citizens who promised to move to Canada if Bush was re-elected ?? They chickened out ??


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## Slim (26 Jan 2005)

> So, where are all those US citizens who promised to move to Canada if Bush was re-elected  They chickened out



Just as well...We have our own and certainly don't need more!

Slim


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## muskrat89 (26 Jan 2005)

> So, where are all those US citizens who promised to move to Canada if Bush was re-elected



They all went to Vegas and are building bunkers, instead   

Sorry Magie - I know your affinity for one-liners  ;D


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## Jungle (26 Jan 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Just as well...We have our own and certainly don't need more!
> 
> Slim


I agree, but it just goes to show these are loudmouths who enjoy life in the USA too much to move away. A lot of talk, but no action... so when people do take action, it pisses them off to see others have the guts to do it. So they turn rebellious...
Personally, if they don't like Bush, they can move to North Korea, I hear they have a Great Leader over there !!


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## a_majoor (26 Jan 2005)

I was looking forward to seeing Sean Penn driving a taxi in Toronto, but cest la vie.



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> You know what it all comes down to, integrity.



Given I only have "observer status" in US politics, what I see and read and hear from the Republican administration is in accord with what I see and read and hear about what is happening in the world (from a multitude of sources), and also internally consistent.

Your Democrats say things to pander to the voters of the moment, but are very quick to flip flop, and the erasure of their previous positions by the so called MSM is very similar to George Orwell's description of life in "1984". The best example? At a recent White house press conference, an official read a statement outlining the current crisis with the Social Security program. The assembled reporters were all over him, of course, until at the end of the conference, the official revealed the statement was _a direct quote from President Clinton from 1998 or 99._ (I feel lazy tonight, but I can find the reference)



> I support the military. I support dropping terrorist where the stand. However, I do not support westernizing the middle east at the expense of my brothers and sisters blood. I do not support a government who has used a tragic day in our country's history to further it's political agenda. I do not savor my government feeding on our patriotism and fear as fuel for its endeavors.



I also remember George W Bush running for President in 2000; he had clearly learned the lesson of his father's presidency and campaigned on a fully loaded domestic platform. Nation building and military action was something he pledged to avoid as not being in America's interest and counter to his political agenda. Unfortunately, people had other ideas, and it is the true measure of the man that he wasn't paralyzed or panicked, but turned the ship of state smartly about to deal with the threat. The Jihadis and their sponsors do not care for you or your opinions, and given the chance would happily behead you on live TV. In this forum, we disagree with your position, but don't forget that all the serving members on this forum are pledged to fight and die for our nations, and one of the things we are defending is you. Be thankful that this is the society you live in, and our patriotism helps protect it and keeps you safe.



> I am afraid for my country. It has strayed far from its origin. Now, comes more of a melding of church and state. It goes far beyond Iraq.



Your President is a religious man, and is not ashamed to express that part of himself, but I have not seen any indications that he is attempting to convert you or me or anyone else. The separation of Church and State expressly forbids the establishment of a "Church of America", or state sponsored religion. If the Administration truly behaved the way you are saying, life in American would closely resemble life in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Taliban era Afghanistan (or Fallujiah when the Jihadis were in control). 

I found the Second Inaugural speech to be a moving testament to what America has stood for over the centuries, and a pledge to continue to do so. It followed in the fine tradition of the Declaration of Independence, and many of Lincoln's speeches. Like Pericles "Funeral Oration", it is a statement of values; how well you follow them is up to you. My own personal hope is you will see the day Condelezza Rice is sworn in as President, the fulfillment of  Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech. 


> A new era is upon us.


Amen to that.


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## MagieNoire (27 Jan 2005)

No offense but I can see by a few of your replies, you don't have a full idea beyond what your favorite source has told you to believe.

I live here, and mister, I fully understand and can see what is happening. Our govenment is using the terrorist situation as a shield to do as they please. I hope you enjoy eating crow because you will be eating a healthy dish of it before this is finished. And this, is what ticks me off! Honorable men and women laying their lives on the line for vampires like Bush/politics. They're already to go slicing and dicing our constitution. It's what they do. The Patriot Act. Do you really believe a sound, self thinking American supports this? Proably. We're just a bunch whatever stupid sarcastic name you place upon us. Little by little, Americans are buying the farm. Little by little, they're willing to give up civil rights and freedoms, so they can feel safe. Yeah, so they can feel safe sitting pigging down their super sized meal in front of ignorant reality television. Most of them, don't even know who the Speaker of the House is, but they support him. They support, The Patriot Act. This is just one aspect. There are more. It might not sound like much to you, you're Canadian, but to an American whose paying attention, the freakin' writing is on the wall. So, go ahead and answer with more of the same. 

It doesn't speak well of your site, as I haven't insulted you but go ahead. Sling your meaningless insults.


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## Slim (27 Jan 2005)

> The Patriot Act. Do you really believe a sound, self thinking American supports this? Proably. We're just a bunch whatever stupid sarcastic name you place upon us



Ma'am

Forgive me for saying so but you sound like a candidate for a private militia or something equaly as drastic!

Instead of just rhetoric, could you please *provide us with some examples * of the impending crisis, instead of just sounding like Chicken-Little and swearing that the sky is falling...

Slim


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## muskrat89 (27 Jan 2005)

> I live here, and mister



Woop-tee-doooo    I live a few hundred miles east of you, and have for almost 8 years. Before that, Maine for 6 years. Nice try though....    :


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## Gouki (27 Jan 2005)

Jungle said:
			
		

> I agree, but it just goes to show these are loudmouths who enjoy life in the USA too much to move away. A lot of talk, but no action... so when people do take action, it pisses them off to see others have the guts to do it. So they turn rebellious...
> Personally, if they don't like Bush, they can move to North Korea, I hear they have a Great Leader over there !!



It's the Dear Leader you South Korean spy! Or maybe you're working for the evil imperialists? Off to the Gulag with you!

Back on topic.. the sad thing is I can see both of your sides and points. Instead of butting heads over the issues endlessly, do you think it's possible to somehow merge the two trains of thought, or at least, find common ground..?

Just some random thought


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> No offense but I can see by a few of your replies, you don't have a full idea beyond what your favorite source has told you to believe.



Could say the same about you.



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Do you really believe a sound, self thinking American supports this?



Again, I'd say more do than you. He's in office once more on their tally. 50% + 1 is still a majority.



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> They're already to go slicing and dicing our constitution. It's what they do. The Patriot Act.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it take a majority consisting of both Democrat and Republican to pass the act?



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> It doesn't speak well of your site, as I haven't insulted you but go ahead. Sling your meaningless insults.



You seem to be the only one losing it and hurling little insulting daggers of hate.


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## MagieNoire (27 Jan 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Could say the same about you.
> 
> Again, I'd say more do than you. He's in office once more on their tally. 50% + 1 is still a majority.
> 
> ...



I'm not losing anything. Just calmly stating fact. Please point out to me my 'daggers of hate'.

You fail to mention under which 'pretense' The Patriot Act was passed. Do you know? Let's be real, shall we? How many politicians are going up against the greatest public show of patriotism since Pearl Habor? Does that mean, The Patriot Act should have been passed. No, but it was. And this prevails even today. The Bush administration uses it like an ace in the hole in a poker game. Rather effectively too.

Do you take my disapproval of my government as not supporting the military? I am sincerely interested in your or any military person's answer.

Also, I was wondering if there is a thread of a place to begin a thread where I can ask Canadians (you guys/gals) about your healthcare system. I am interested in hearing directly from the citizens. You know, the pros and cons. Is it a bad idea or a good idea that's not being implemented well. Or is it a great system.

Our country's healthcare system is in bad shape. Anyway, I don't know where or how or if I am suppose to be able to ask.

Thanks.


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## spenco (27 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> No offense but I can see by a few of your replies, you don't have a full idea beyond what your favorite source has told you to believe.



Ok, try not watching farenheight 9/11 for a whole week alright?



> I live here, and mister, I fully understand and can see what is happening. Our govenment is using the terrorist situation as a shield to do as they please.



Can you provide some examples? 



> They're already to go slicing and dicing our constitution. It's what they do. The Patriot Act. Do you really believe a sound, self thinking American supports this? Proably. We're just a bunch whatever stupid sarcastic name you place upon us. Little by little, Americans are buying the farm. Little by little, they're willing to give up civil rights and freedoms, so they can feel safe.



Is feeling safe a bad thing?   Yes, individuals have rights and those should be upheld but the society also has rights that supercede individual rights in some circumstances IMHO.   Anything related to national security and preventing another 9/11 is certainly worth the inconvienence.



> Yeah, so they can feel safe sitting pigging down their super sized meal in front of ignorant reality television. Most of them, don't even know who the Speaker of the House is, but they support him. They support, The Patriot Act. This is just one aspect. There are more. It might not sound like much to you, you're Canadian, but to an American whose paying attention, the freakin' writing is on the wall. So, go ahead and answer with more of the same.



Do they need to know who the speaker of the house is to make a desicion?   IIRC it is the vice-president correct?   if so then yes, they would support him because he obviously got the votes neccesary to have the job.   You bring up the patriot act; I believe it is a good thing, what is so bad about giving information to the gov't in regards to national security?   I assume you would call 911 if you saw someone getting mugged on the street, so why not do the same thing on an international level.   It is an invasion of privacy in some cases but not an undue one.   BTW, what are those "other aspects"



> It doesn't speak well of your site, as I haven't insulted you but go ahead.



It dosent speak well of this site because the members here don;t agree with your views on Bush?


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## 48Highlander (27 Jan 2005)

Steve said:
			
		

> Back on topic.. the sad thing is I can see both of your sides and points. Instead of butting heads over the issues endlessly, do you think it's possible to somehow merge the two trains of thought, or at least, find common ground..?
> 
> Just some random thought



It's not the fact that she disagrees with anyone that's a problem.   I LIKE being disagreed with.   Who wants to be surrounded with yes-men all the time?   It gets boring fast.   No, the problem is that she hasn't really SAID ANYTHING.   She rants and raves and complains a lot, but does she clearly define what it is she has a problem with?   Does she provide any evidence to support anything she says?   Just scroll through the last couple posts and you'll see what I mean.   A_Majoor throws out a bunch of well thought out and well phrased points, provides some information to support his stance, and the best that she can do in the way of a response is "I live here, and mister, I fully understand and can see what is happening".   Then she continues ranting and raving about a bunch of somewhat-related topics without going into any detail on any of them.   That's not an discussion, it's more of a temper-tantrum.


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## spenco (27 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> You fail to mention under which 'pretense' The Patriot Act was passed. Do you know? Let's be real, shall we? How many politicians are going up against the greatest public show of patriotism since Pearl Habor? Does that mean, The Patriot Act should have been passed. No, but it was. And this prevails even today. The Bush administration uses it like an ace in the hole in a poker game. Rather effectively too.



That pretense still exists today and rightly so, your nation is fighting a war which the rest of the world wont fight. while I may not be Bush's biggest fan I do agree with the majority of his desicions thus far, including passing the patriot act and liberating Iraq.




> Do you take my disapproval of my government as not supporting the military? I am sincerely interested in your or any military person's answer.



You havent exactly pledged your unfledging support to the military have you?




> Also, I was wondering if there is a thread of a place to begin a thread where I can ask Canadians (you guys/gals) about your healthcare system. I am interested in hearing directly from the citizens. You know, the pros and cons. Is it a bad idea or a good idea that's not being implemented well. Or is it a great system.



Hehe I wouldn't advise getting the people here started in regards to the healthcare system.


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## MagieNoire (27 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> It's not the fact that she disagrees with anyone that's a problem.   I LIKE being disagreed with.   Who wants to be surrounded with yes-men all the time?   It gets boring fast.   No, the problem is that she hasn't really SAID ANYTHING.   She rants and raves and complains a lot, but does she clearly define what it is she has a problem with?   Does she provide any evidence to support anything she says?   Just scroll through the last couple posts and you'll see what I mean.   A_Majoor throws out a bunch of well thought out and well phrased points, provides some information to support his stance, and the best that she can do in the way of a response is "I live here, and mister, I fully understand and can see what is happening".   Then she continues ranting and raving about a bunch of somewhat-related topics without going into any detail on any of them.   That's not an discussion, it's more of a temper-tantrum.



Like I mentioned in my email to you. I research and do the work of finding my own facts. You should do the same as well.

Sweeping generalizations as hyped as they may sound are not sound facts. This rule applies both ways.

Look up The Patriot Act. Look up what it allows our government to do. Look. Then with an open mind, think. Look back at the time table and see how, when and under which pretense it was passed. Why should I have to go and look it up for you? Why do I have to bring you the information? If you feel I am having a meaniless temper tantrum, why respond to me? Our government is now allowed to search our private information and we don't even have to be notified about it. I don't know what is the law of your land is but this is a bad thing for Americans.

Have you heard of Pandora's Box? If not, just Google it. The Patriot Act is a Pandora's Box that's been opened. Just as The Supreme Court's decision in the 2000 election set a precedent. The bell has been rung so to speak. As you know, it is difficult to unring a bell.

How are any of the above statements having a temper tantrum? 

My ego isn't that fragile or in need. If I have attacked someone, then point it out to me. I will galdly apologize because I'd rather do what's right, than be right. Integrity is paramount with me. 

Anyway, about the healthcare in Canada. I'm interested in it. Will someone start a thread or point me to an existing thread?

Thanks.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> How many politicians are going up against the greatest public show of patriotism since Pearl Habor? Does that mean, The Patriot Act should have been passed. No, but it was.



So unless you have some sort of planet destroying inside information, this is just conjecture on your part.



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Do you take my disapproval of my government as not supporting the military? I am sincerely interested in your or any military person's answer.



I never inferred anything of the sort



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Also, I was wondering if there is a thread of a place to begin a thread where I can ask Canadians (you guys/gals) about your healthcare system. I am interested in hearing directly from the citizens. You know, the pros and cons. Is it a bad idea or a good idea that's not being implemented well. Or is it a great system.
> 
> Our country's healthcare system is in bad shape. Anyway, I don't know where or how or if I am suppose to be able to ask.



If you want to start a thread on it, go ahead. Go to the main forum page click 'Political" and then "New Topic"

You'll probably find most of us are disillusioned at the state of our system and the black hole the money dissappears in with the corresponding loss of service.

BTW, The Speaker of the House is Dennis Hastert, currently serving his fourth term in that capacity.


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## MagieNoire (27 Jan 2005)

spenco said:
			
		

> That pretense still exists today and rightly so, your nation is fighting a war which the rest of the world wont fight. while I may not be Bush's biggest fan I do agree with the majority of his desicions thus far, including passing the patriot act and liberating Iraq.
> 
> 
> You havent exactly pledged your unfledging support to the military have you?
> ...



To take liberties away and or invade them in the name of liberating Iraq and fighting terrorism is an oxy moron in my mind. Terrorism has been around for years and years. Only under the current administration has it sought to open this Pandora's Box. Look deeper.

I haven't stated I do not support the military. In fact, I have stated over and over that I do support the military. I do not support my government's current policies. There is a differnce.

Geez, healthcare is a bad topic? So, this means is really bad?

Hmmm, won't anyone explain or say without bugging out about it?

If not, nervermind.


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## spenco (27 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Why should I have to go and look it up for you? Why do I have to bring you the information? If you feel I am having a meaniless temper tantrum, why respond to me?



You should look it up because YOU are the one making the accusations, you are the one who is making blind statements without backing up your statements with facts or statistics.   We shouldn't have to research to see if your argument is either brilliant or way out in left field.   It is up to you to give yourself credibility, not for us to research.   



> Our government is now allowed to search our private information and we don't even have to be notified about it. I don't know what is the law of your land is but this is a bad thing for Americans.



Ok, say you are notified, what good would it do?   Or would it just piss you off?   Why bother notifying you if you can't do anything about it anyways.



> Have you heard of Pandora's Box? If not, just Google it. The Patriot Act is a Pandora's Box that's been opened. Just as The Supreme Court's decision in the 2000 election set a precedent. The bell has been rung so to speak. As you know, it is difficult to unring a bell.



Your point being...?



> How are any of the above statements having a temper tantrum?



Perhaps not but you still have not backed up your statements with facts or statistics.



> Anyway, about the healthcare in Canada. I'm interested in it. Will someone start a thread or point me to an existing thread?



Do a search or start a thread up yourself.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Jan 2005)

This thread is not about healthcare, nor will it be diverted that way. You asked how to start a Topic and were given more instruction than most would've got. If you want to know about something outside this thread, start your own Topic on it.


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## spenco (27 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> To take liberties away and or invade them in the name of liberating Iraq and fighting terrorism is an oxy moron in my mind. Terrorism has been around for years and years. Only under the current administration has it sought to open this Pandora's Box. Look deeper.



Yes, it has been around for years BUT terrorism has never struck on such a massive scale on US soil before.   IMHO your argument has no merit on that basis.



> I haven't stated I do not support the military. In fact, I have stated over and over that I do support the military. I do not support my government's current policies. There is a differnce.



I apoligize if you did say that you supported the military, I did not see it.



> Geez, healthcare is a bad topic? So, this means is really bad?



This topic is not about healthcare, start another topic if you want to hear about it so badly.

P.S. Recceguy you beat me to it...you replyed while I was typing.


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## 48Highlander (27 Jan 2005)

MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Like I mentioned in my email to you. I research and do the work of finding my own facts. You should do the same as well.
> Sweeping generalizations as hyped as they may sound are not sound facts. This rule applies both ways.



Which is why I haven't made any.   I'm waiting for you to return the favour.



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Look up The Patriot Act. Look up what it allows our government to do. Look. Then with an open mind, think. Look back at the time table and see how, when and under which pretense it was passed. Why should I have to go and look it up for you? Why do I have to bring you the information? If you feel I am having a meaniless temper tantrum, why respond to me? Our government is now allowed to search our private information and we don't even have to be notified about it. I don't know what is the law of your land is but this is a bad thing for Americans.



As has been pointed out already, when you make allegations it's up to you to provide evidence.   If you can't understand such a simple concept then you really have no place discussing politics in the first place.

Secondly, I HAVE read through the patriot act.   The main thrust of it is breaking down barriers between agencies, thus allowing them to communicate more effectively.   It does provide some new ways for the government to "violate your privacy", however these violations are very minor and don't bother me in the least.   As for your ranting about violation of privacy, as far as I know, the constitution does not gaurantee you a right to privacy, nor are there any laws to that effect.   I as a private citizen can follow you, observe you, check your personal records, and otherwise violate your privacy all I want.   The government DID place certain restrictions on law-enforcement agencies, however, since the government placed them, the government can revoke them.   C'est la Vie. 



			
				MagieNoire said:
			
		

> Have you heard of Pandora's Box? If not, just Google it. The Patriot Act is a Pandora's Box that's been opened. Just as The Supreme Court's decision in the 2000 election set a precedent. The bell has been rung so to speak. As you know, it is difficult to unring a bell.
> 
> How are any of the above statements having a temper tantrum?



Two words:   Drama Queen


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## MagieNoire (27 Jan 2005)

spenco said:
			
		

> You should look it up because YOU are the one making the accusations, you are the one who is making blind statements without backing up your statements with facts or statistics.   We shouldn't have to research to see if your argument is either brilliant or way out in left field.   It is up to you to give yourself credibility, not for us to research.
> 
> Ok, say you are notified, what good would it do?   Or would it just piss you off?   Why bother notifying you if you can't do anything about it anyways.
> 
> ...



I have no idea what laws you have in Canada but in America (well, this use to be the case) the government couldn't usurp and or invade a citizens privacy and or rights. This has all changed now. Americans no longer have this protection from its government.

Here is an example. http://tinyurl.com/tt9y (I even made the url a tiny one, how sweet)

Mind you, I am not for crime and I would not want people such as these doing whatever they please. However, the government's use of TPA was overstepped. This is just a single case. There are more, look them up at Google. A few key words are all you need.

I do not have to prove anything to you or anyone here, and I am not trying too. I haven't seen any evidence to support any claims stated here.

Information can be flung around to support anyone's chosen view. It must be sifted through and really looked at in its proper context.

I've already looked up Canadian healthcare. Americans discuss our system and yours often. Still, I thought it would be interesting to hear from 'the people' who are living under such a system. I'm wondering if your system is flawed or just not being implimented properly.

I dunno, I've always held Canada in high esteem for provding its citizens with healthcare. In America, only the well to do (wealthy) get _proper_ healthcare if any healthcare at all.   If you people don't think I should ask or make a thread, then I won't. What's the point.


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## MagieNoire (27 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Which is why I haven't made any.   I'm waiting for you to return the favour.
> 
> As has been pointed out already, when you make allegations it's up to you to provide evidence.   If you can't understand such a simple concept then you really have no place discussing politics in the first place.
> 
> ...



Drama queen? Why? You seem to be the only one going drama-rama. I guess, the name calling is your way of chasing off those who disagree with you? Your post says, nothing. It makes no statement of fact. Yet, you pass it off as such. 

Perhaps, Canadians don't have or haven't ever had the same liberties as Americans. I really don't know, so I can't say.

I can only guess by your statements on the matter, you are clueless as to the significance of the TPA. So, you've read TPA. Okay. 

Perhaps, you'd have to be American to 'get it'. Nevermind. I have desire to degrade into a name calling, immature discussion with you.

I do not make allegations. I'm living here and stating the current state of our country. Go find a new, newbie and share your sunshine with them.

I'm done with you.


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## 48Highlander (27 Jan 2005)

moderators?  lock?


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## MagieNoire (27 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> moderators?   lock?



Why? Because I said I don't want to argue with you?

I don't. Why is this a problem?


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