# Member on IR making MTEC claims



## Jarnhamar (15 Aug 2011)

Question.
Say a Reg force member is posted to a reserve unit and is receiving IR.
Can member claim a lunch (breakfast, supper etc..) if he goes on a day tasking outside of the local area? 
Or inside the local area if member is tasked to something over lunch?


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## PMedMoe (15 Aug 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Question.
> Say a Reg force member is posted to a reserve unit and is receiving IR.
> Can member claim a lunch (breakfast, supper etc..) if he goes on a day tasking outside of the local area?
> Or inside the local area if member is tasked to something over lunch?



Pretty sure they can.  On IR, meals are not paid for in full.


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## dapaterson (15 Aug 2011)

To my understanding:

The individual claiming SE may claim per the normal rules (in local area: up to meal limit with receipt; outside of local area: meal amount without receipt), however, their claim for SE for the period must have those meals removed - they cannot claim twice for the same meal.


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## PMedMoe (15 Aug 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> To my understanding:
> 
> The individual claiming SE may claim per the normal rules (in local area: up to meal limit with receipt; outside of local area: meal amount without receipt), however, their claim for SE for the period must have those meals removed - they cannot claim twice for the same meal.



I wonder how you remove a percentage of a percentage.......   ???


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## Pusser (15 Aug 2011)

Here is what the CFTDI says for inside the HQ area:

5.10	Meals

(1)	Meal expenses incurred within the HQ area shall not normally be reimbursed.  Each unit must provide a lunch break approximately midway through the regular work period or shift to enable each member to obtain a meal at their own expense.

(2)	If the CO considers meal expenses during normal working hours as reasonable and justifiable, a member on TD within the HQ area is entitled to be reimbursed actual out-of-pocket expenses, based on receipts, up to the limit of the applicable meal allowance in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, provisions of CFAO 36-14 still apply.  The following are examples of when meal expenses may be reimbursed IAW the meal hours listed at Section 6.10 paras 2 and 3:

a)	when members are required to work through normal meal hours as approved by their supervisor (this primarily refers to lunches, however, breakfast and dinner may apply on rare occasions).  A reasonably delayed meal hour does not create an entitlement to a meal at Crown expense;

b)	when members are required to attend conferences, seminars, training sessions, meetings or public hearings during the weekend or holidays, where meals were not provided by a third party;

c)	when  members are required to attend formal full-day conferences, seminars, training sessions, meetings or hearings, and meals are a required part of the proceedings;

d)	when members are on ration strength but because of an absence on authorized duty  are unable to take a meal at the mess and have not been provided with a box lunch; or

e)	when members are required to work outside the primary work place, and their participation in an intensive task force or committee work is enhanced by keeping members together over a normal meal period.


And for outside the HQ area:

6.10	Meals

(1)	A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance rates set out in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, for each breakfast, lunch and dinner while on TD.  A meal allowance shall not be paid to a member with respect to a meal that is provided by a third party or other government agency.  Members shall only claim for those meals that they were not provided.

(2)	A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance for each breakfast, lunch and dinner provided that:

a)	for breakfast, the member must depart from home on duty travel before 0630 hrs;

b)	for lunch, the member must be on travel status between 1130 hrs and 1300 hrs; and

c)	for dinner, the member must arrive at home after 1800 hrs.

(3)	A member who is on duty between 1900 hours and 0730 hours for four hours or greater is entitled to be reimbursed, with receipts, actual and reasonable expenses not exceeding the amount payable for a lunch, for a single night meal, when the CO considers that the purchase of the meal was necessary to ensure the proper performance of the duty.

(4)	Reimbursement of meals for shift workers shall be based on the meal sequence of breakfast, lunch and dinner in relation to the commencement of the CF member’s shift.

In short, the answer is yes, but there are caveats depending on the circumstances.  Note that there is no mention of whether the member is on IR or not (i.e. no exclusion) and if this is an occasional issue, as a comptroller, I wouldn't bother trying to adjust SE.  Keep in mind that SE assumes you are eating at home (well, second home in fact) and/or brown-bagging it.  This is not the case when on travel status.  However, if this is a regular occurance, then I would look at it differently.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Aug 2011)

Thank you very much all, I will pass this along. Cheers


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## CountDC (16 Aug 2011)

The SE Claim does get adjusted and it is a simple one for the SE Clerk to do.  Not to inform the clerk of the needed adjustment is fraud.  The Comptroller does not have the authority to bypass adjusting the SE. Double paying a member for a meal is not allowed.


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## Pusser (16 Aug 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> The SE Claim does get adjusted and it is a simple one for the SE Clerk to do.  Not to inform the clerk of the needed adjustment is fraud.  The Comptroller does not have the authority to bypass adjusting the SE. Double paying a member for a meal is not allowed.



Where does it say that?  I've just checked both the CFTDI and CBI 209.997 (Separation Expense) and neither of them mention anything about adjusting SE for a period of TD.  Remember also that I am only talking about a one-off situation (i.e. one meal), not a longer TD involving multiple meals.  The staff effort to adjust SE for a few cents isn't worth it.  We shouldn't be spending dollars to chase nickels.  Comptrollers do have some leeway to apply common sense.


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## dapaterson (16 Aug 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Where does it say that?  I've just checked both the CFTDI and CBI 209.997 (Separation Expense) and neither of them mention anything about adjusting SE for a period of TD.  Remember also that I am only talking about a one-off situation (i.e. one meal), not a longer TD involving multiple meals.  The staff effort to adjust SE for a few cents isn't worth it.  We shouldn't be spending dollars to chase nickels.  _*Comptrollers do have some leeway to apply common sense.*_



Not if you follow the FAA and regulations to the letter.  It does lead to absurd  situations - in the early 90s, my Reserve unit released a soldier after their first summer of training.  Three months later, we got a list of folks owing money to the crown - and he was on it, owing 7 cents, so his release was held up.  I took the list, red-circled all those amounts under $1.00, and added a handwritten note recommending write-off, as it would be uneconomical to pursue them.  Total recommend write-off: Under $10.00.

A month later, we got back the same list - but now with a hastener, as they were 30 days later.  Assuming my poor handwriting was to blame, I wrote a cover memo with essentially the same details, and sent it off.

A month later, another letter.  These amounts were not 60 days late!  The World Would End Soon if this problem was not resolved.

So I took a sheet of paper.  Wrote the miserable miscreant's service number on it.  Taped on seven pennies.  Sent it back.

A week later: an official Government of Canada receipt was in my possession for seven cents.  Buddy's release could proceed.


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## Pusser (16 Aug 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Not if you follow the FAA and regulations to the letter.  It does lead to absurd  situations - in the early 90s, my Reserve unit released a soldier after their first summer of training.  Three months later, we got a list of folks owing money to the crown - and he was on it, owing 7 cents, so his release was held up.  I took the list, red-circled all those amounts under $1.00, and added a handwritten note recommending write-off, as it would be uneconomical to pursue them.  Total recommend write-off: Under $10.00.
> 
> A month later, we got back the same list - but now with a hastener, as they were 30 days later.  Assuming my poor handwriting was to blame, I wrote a cover memo with essentially the same details, and sent it off.
> 
> ...



Granted, but what I'm saying is not quite the same thing.  You're right in arguing that it's nigh on impossible to write off any sum of money that has gone missing, but not it's not completely impossible.  You just have to prove that it's uncollectible.  I would have been inclined to fork over seven cents out of my own pocket as well. :nod:

But I'm not talking about writing anything off.  What I am saying is that herein lies a grey area where I would exercise some discretion (under very limited circumstances) and pay a member for a single meal on an MTEC without adjusting the SE.  I have always tried to practice that when dealing in grey areas, I err on the side of the member. There is no fraud here and I'm not hiding anything.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Aug 2011)

Perhaps if I added more detail.

Example;
I am a regular force member from CFB Toronto. I take an RSS posting in Belleville.  I have been receiving IR for the last year as I still have a house and family in Toronto.   Through out the year I am tasked at various times to drive to different cities/bases/areas for different reasons of duty. Bringing members to a course. Dropping off mail. Doing a recruiting stand. Going on a 1 day course somewhere.

Am I allowed to put in meal claims for the times that I miss meals (while receiving IR) the same way a class A reservist is able to put in mtec claims for the same meals? Not a single meal claim but probably a few a month.


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## Pusser (16 Aug 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Perhaps if I added more detail.
> 
> Example;
> I am a regular force member from CFB Toronto. I take an RSS posting in Belleville.  I have been receiving IR for the last year as I still have a house and family in Toronto.   Through out the year I am tasked at various times to drive to different cities/bases/areas for different reasons of duty. Bringing members to a course. Dropping off mail. Doing a recruiting stand. Going on a 1 day course somewhere.
> ...



Yes and as these are all day trips (I presume) then an MTEC would be the appropriate means to do this.  With regard to my previous comments, because of the frequency that you do this, I would also recommend you report these trips to the SE clerk who can make the appropriate adjustments there (a copy of the MTEC in fact gives him/her a good supporting document to hold on file).  Don't worry, full reimbursement for meals on the MTEC will be higher than the 35% you get through SE.


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## brihard (16 Aug 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Not if you follow the FAA and regulations to the letter.  It does lead to absurd  situations - in the early 90s, my Reserve unit released a soldier after their first summer of training.  Three months later, we got a list of folks owing money to the crown - and he was on it, owing 7 cents, so his release was held up.  I took the list, red-circled all those amounts under $1.00, and added a handwritten note recommending write-off, as it would be uneconomical to pursue them.  Total recommend write-off: Under $10.00.
> 
> A month later, we got back the same list - but now with a hastener, as they were 30 days later.  Assuming my poor handwriting was to blame, I wrote a cover memo with essentially the same details, and sent it off.
> 
> ...



Part of you *must* have been tempted to have sent them a nickel, then a month later angrily written demanding a check be cut in return to reimburse the extra three cents that were inadvertently credited?


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## dapaterson (16 Aug 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Part of you *must* have been tempted to have sent them a nickel, then a month later angrily written demanding a check be cut in return to reimburse the extra three cents that were inadvertently credited?



[war story]

Well, next time I saw those folks in person was on a PD day (Saturday) after a mess dinner in my unit (Friday night drifting to Saturday morning - I got home around 4:30am, and had to be up before 6 to get to the meeting).  I decided to stay on "receive" for the AM; once the PM arrived and I was no longer drunk, just hung over, I stayed on receive.  (Per the Cpl who accompanied a friend of mine to that meeting, "That Lt doesn't look very good this morning.")  That night we met at the Bde HQ mess, where one of the senior Fin Clks (yes, grandkids, once upon a time the CF had real, honest to goodness Finance clerks, none of this RMS nonsense) demonstrated to everyone how to inflate a condom, pulled over your head to just below your nose, by exhaling through your nose, and kept going until it burst.

It hardly seemed appropriate to ask about 7 cents at that point; I was more curious as to why she apparently kept a large supply of condoms ready at her desk...

[/war story]


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## s_other (17 Aug 2011)

Your SE/IR Clerk won't care.  They only care if you receive incidentals, which is the cover-all for any random expense you may incur at home while away.  Since you're not at home, you're not entitled to incidentals, thus you receive SE.

The MTEC is a whole different beast that is simply reimbursing you for meals consumed.  You're still separated from your HG&E/dependents and are entitled to be compensated for it.


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## armyvern (17 Aug 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I wonder how you remove a percentage of a percentage.......   ???



If you are on IR and go on TD for a day ... you must report to your OR those days you were on TD and they will be deducted from your IR claim.

IE: 30 days in the month = 30 days total - 2 days abated per month (in lieu of leave) - 1 days TD that month (day mbr filed MTEC) = IR SE rate at 27 days for that month.

Else, it's fraud. The SE for IR members does reimburse for meal costs at a partial rate.


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## PMedMoe (17 Aug 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If you are on IR and go on TD for a day ... you must report to your OR those days you were on TD and they will be deducted from your IR claim.
> 
> IE: 30 days in the month = 30 days total - 2 days abated per month (in lieu of leave) - 1 days TD that month (day mbr filed MTEC) = IR SE rate at 27 days for that month.
> 
> Else, it's fraud. The SE for IR members does reimburse for meal costs at a partial rate.



I realize that.  The question was for _one meal_ on an MTEC.  Not for a day of TD.


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## CountDC (17 Aug 2011)

does this not wring a bell with anyone:

CERTIFIED THAT THE ITEMS CLAIMED HEREIN HAVE NOT BEEN CLAIMED PREVIOUSLY AND THAT THE DETAILS ARE AS STATED.

It is the statement you are signing when you sign your CF52 for SE that includes meals.  This means you are saying you have not claimed these meals already not even on an MTEC. 

This statement or at least a similar one is on all claims including the MTEC so if you have signed the CF52 and the MTEC stating the same thing while claiming the meal on both then you have committed fraud. How serious can this be?  Well sometimes they take claim fraud very seriously - just ask the Chief in Halifax that lost rank and paid a few k fine for $5 taxis.  Worth the risk?

Basic rule - you can only claim things once and as a former SE/IR clerk I did care and did adjust the claims accordingly and no it didn't cost dollars for me to adjust the claim.  It takes mere minutes to adjust an SE/IR claim when it is a regular part of your job.

Best thing to do - if you are really worried about the money then figure out which one is going to pay you the few extra dollars and claim that one. Myself I would save the hassle and stick with the SE/IR claim.


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## snowball17 (17 Aug 2011)

I know this is not related to this topic, but similar to it. If anyone knows the answer please respond. 

I have a friend who is a civy who plays with a military band. He was tasked to play at an event which was out of town and was for several days. The military members of this unit who were tasked were allowed to claim TD, no questions asked. Is the civy members who were tasked to this same event and who were staying in the same accommodations etc as the military members, are they allowed to claim for their meals and expenses as well? Is there any president for this? He was allowed before to claim these expenses, however for some reason the civys are being told this time around that they are not eligible to do so. I don't think this is fair, but I don't know what the rule is. Hopefully someone out there can direct me.
Thanks!


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## dapaterson (17 Aug 2011)

TD is for CF members and publioc servants who travel.

For individuals accompanying the CF (including civilians accompanying bands) they should be under a contract for services that dictates what is covered.


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## snowball17 (18 Aug 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> TD is for CF members and public servants who travel.
> 
> For individuals accompanying the CF (including civilians accompanying bands) they should be under a contract for services that dictates what is covered.




Is it the same if the civilian is a member of the Band, and not just accompanying them? There are a lot of members of the band who are civilians. I am trying to figure out for them what they are entitled for, and what they are not.


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## CountDC (18 Aug 2011)

In what way is he a member of a Military band?  Volunteer? Then he could not be tasked but requested to go.  At that time he should have asked if they were footing the bill for him to go.  

You did answer one of you own questions:

Question: Is there any president for this? Answer: He was allowed before to claim these expenses

Interesting case.  I think the Band COC should dig into this one and find a way to cover the expenses as they were paid before and no one informed him the rules had changed.  For future events they (and he) should be sure that everyone understands what is to be covered and what is not.


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## snowball17 (18 Aug 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> In what way is he a member of a Military band?  Volunteer? Then he could not be tasked but requested to go.  At that time he should have asked if they were footing the bill for him to go.
> 
> You did answer one of you own questions:
> 
> ...



Yes he is a volunteer, however with this unit if you want to be a member of the band you have to attend all taskings as asked, or you are replaced. When he brought it up through the ranks he was told that they were not going to be reimbursed for their travel, but at the same time they made it known to him that the military members were being given TD as they are military. I think it is a kick in the pants if you ask me. Yes he was allowed to claim these things before, but after they arrived and he asked about it he was told that it wasn't in the budget and they would not be reimbursed. They did however allow him to claim his train ticket, and they provided accommodation for him while they were away for a week.


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## dapaterson (18 Aug 2011)

There is no legal authority to pay non-CF / non Public servants TD unless there is a contract for services in place.  Bands are no different.  There is no provision in the CFTDI or the NJC travel directive to pay travel or incidental costs for civilian volunteers.  That it was done in the past does not make it legal or correct.

If they are public servants, lines may be a bit more blurred, since the NJC directive is for duty travel; volunteering with a band would not seem to meet that criteria.

Ultimately, DHH & DFPP need to sit down and resolve the many issues surrounding civilians with military bands.  Frankly, given that military bands have been able to swan around Europe and Asia on Tattoos for the past 10 years but have never once been able to find the time to provide musical support to troops in Afghanistan (you know, that whole "bands exist for morale and esprit de corps" thing) I'd cut the entire branch to zero.


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## Blackadder1916 (18 Aug 2011)

snowball17 said:
			
		

> . . . .  He was tasked to play at an event which was out of town and was for several days. . . . .



Was this event a "military" tasking or was it the attendance of the band at a performance event?

I was not a bandsmans and the only "tune-r" I've carried in the army was communications related, though I have had to "pay the piper" a few times.  Things may have changed since I've left the CF and there were probably differences among the various militia districts/brigades on how they funded the "official" activities of reserve bands.  The way I recall it, bands (being separately accountable) were allocated budgets for Class A days (based on total number of reservists in the band and an estimate of the number of official events for all brigade units where music support would be required) and for operations (for travel, meals, TD etc to support the authorized official events of the brigade).  Since civilian volunteers could not be "tasked" it was assumed that travel outside the local area would not include the civilians and if they did travel with the band it would have to be on their own dime, or funded by the organization requesting the band's presence or funded by the band's regimental NPF.  Similarly, if a unit requested music support for an event that was not on the authorized list (i.e. more than one mess dinner a year) then the requesting unit also had to provide the Class A days and travel if necessary (or an honorarium in lieu).

But regardless of the legality of reimbursing civilian musicians for expenses incurred while travelling with a volunteer there appears to be at least one such band that says they do:

http://12wingpipeband.ca/join.htm


> Join the band
> 
> 12 Wing Pipes and Drums is always looking for new members. Anyone is welcome to join, *you do not need to be a member of the Canadian Forces* to play in our band.
> 
> ...


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## dapaterson (18 Aug 2011)

I should clarify: reimbursement from public funds.  NPF is a whole other kettle of fish.


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## CountDC (18 Aug 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Ultimately, DHH & DFPP need to sit down and resolve the many issues surrounding civilians with military bands.  Frankly, given that military bands have been able to swan around Europe and Asia on Tattoos for the past 10 years but have never once been able to find the time to provide musical support to troops in Afghanistan (you know, that whole "bands exist for morale and esprit de corps" thing) *I'd cut the entire branch to zero.*



Got my support there.  Cut the Branch and let the units that want it have their own bands.  That way the bands can be with the units doing their job where ever they are deployed to.


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## snowball17 (18 Aug 2011)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Was this event a "military" tasking or was it the attendance of the band at a performance event?
> 
> I was not a bandsmans and the only "tune-r" I've carried in the army was communications related, though I have had to "pay the piper" a few times.  Things may have changed since I've left the CF and there were probably differences among the various militia districts/brigades on how they funded the "official" activities of reserve bands.  The way I recall it, bands (being separately accountable) were allocated budgets for Class A days (based on total number of reservists in the band and an estimate of the number of official events for all brigade units where music support would be required) and for operations (for travel, meals, TD etc to support the authorized official events of the brigade).  Since civilian volunteers could not be "tasked" it was assumed that travel outside the local area would not include the civilians and if they did travel with the band it would have to be on their own dime, or funded by the organization requesting the band's presence or funded by the band's regimental NPF.  Similarly, if a unit requested music support for an event that was not on the authorized list (i.e. more than one mess dinner a year) then the requesting unit also had to provide the Class A days and travel if necessary (or an honorarium in lieu).
> 
> ...



Yes it was a military tasking, and I know that there are a few bands that do pay TD for their members even if they are civilians or not. I think it was a case that the Drum Major did not want to do the extra paperwork for the meals to be claimed, and as far as he was concerned he was getting TD so it was no big deal to him if the civilian members of the band got TD or not for their meals etc.
This is just my opinion though from what I have heard and seen first hand...


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