# Former Soldier Acquitted of Sex Assault on Teen



## Scoobie Newbie (22 Jun 2006)

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060622/soldier_ptsd_060622

CTV.ca News Staff

A former Canadian soldier has been found not guilty of sexual assault because a court ruled he suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder stemming from a deployment in Bosnia 10 years earlier.

Roger Borsch, 34, was on trial on charges of confining and sexually assaulting a 13-year-old girl after breaking into her home in The Pas, Manitoba in 2004.

Borsch did not deny the Crown's allegation that the incident took place. 

Instead, Borsch testified that he had no recollection of the incident ever having happened. 

His lawyer argued that Borsch was traumatized by time he spent with the Canadian Forces serving in Bosnia and was in a type of shock and did not know what he was doing.

Borsch was acquitted Thursday by Justice Nathan Nurgitz, who explained that expert witnesses testified Borsch exhibited symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder before the attack took place.

Though his court case has been dismissed, a psychiatric panel will review his case to determine whether treatment is necessary. 

In an earlier appearance, Borsch told the Winnipeg court he has no memory of the alleged incident, and remembers nothing after leaving a party at another house earlier in the day.

"The next thing I remember, I woke up in the middle of a river in a canoe,'' Borsch testified.

"I looked around and tried to figure out where I was.''

His mother told the court Borsch came back from a six-month tour in Bosnia in 1994 depressed, withdrawn and often unable to sleep.

"He didn't smile, he didn't frown . . . he didn't seem to be interested in anything,'' Barbara Borsch said.

"He was just a totally different man.''

After returning from Bosnia, Borsch moved between Calgary, Edmonton and The Pas, where he eventually landed a job as a jail guard.

Meanwhile, the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs is likely to see close to 20,000 new cases of post-combat stress this year among soldiers who served in Iraq or Afghanistan, according to a report in Knight Ridder Newspapers.

The department had anticipated seeing only 2,900 new cases in the 2006 fiscal year, which runs from Oct. 1, 2005, to Sept. 30, 2006.

The illness has been cited as a cause of drug addiction and homelessness, among other social problems.

With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## SoF (22 Jun 2006)

I'd really like to comment on this but not having served in combat I only have one side of the story.


----------



## 3rd Horseman (22 Jun 2006)

:rage:

  SOF, let me do the Honours.....I have been in combat, I have PTSD. You do not commit sexual predator acts on little girls because you have PTSD...you may forget you are a sick twisted freak and what you have done, but you are a full up criminal in my books. This low life needs to go to jail to get some help for PTSD so he can remember what a sick %$#&^%$ person (thing) he is.

I had to sorry.


----------



## GAP (22 Jun 2006)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> :rage:



+10  :rage:


----------



## the 48th regulator (23 Jun 2006)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> :rage:
> 
> SOF, let me do the Honours.....I have been in combat, I have PTSD. You do not commit sexual predator acts on little girls because you have PTSD...you may forget you are a sick twisted freak and what you have done, but you are a full up criminal in my books. This low life needs to go to jail to get some help for PTSD so he can remember what a sick %$#&^%$ person (thing) he is.
> 
> I had to sorry.



Agreed,

I might as well rob the local bank that carries the winnings for the Lotto, and spend on one big effing whoop up for the member of harmee dot see eh.  I can blame it my diagnosis as well!

All in, say aye!

dileas

tess


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (23 Jun 2006)

What a POS.  Nice, dump it all back on the CF, your PTSD and Bosnia.  Meanwhile the poor victim... :threat:

I think thats called a "scapegoat".  Or BS.  Or something.  Regardless, he shouldn't be allowed to walk away.


----------



## Marauder (23 Jun 2006)

Take Lester the Molester. Apply wooden axhandle vigourously. Repeat as needed. Add gasoline to said LtM corpse. Immolate at lesuire. Find moron judge and enabling scumbag defence lawyer. Repeat steps 1 through 5.


----------



## Enzo (23 Jun 2006)

I love the timeline here, 12 years and his PTSD has manifested itself now in this way? Yeah, the drugs, alcohol, and intervening years were just problematic antecedents to his condition... riiiight.

I also appreciate the way the writer included the numbers of anticipated US PTSD cases (hide your daughters!) as if that has a direct correlation to this case.

Unbelievable. The standards for reporting are atrocious as we've witnessed time and time again. As for the judges; well, if he feels confident that this guy can babysit his child...  :

Does this individual need medical help. Of course, then he needs to (wait for it) *"TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS ACTIONS!!!"[/b

I tire of this. Truly. Citizens have many rights in Canada. That little girl had the right to grow up without fear that she would become some asshats sexual plaything. This POS has the right to receive medical assistance for his conditions (whatever they may be) and then once he has his faculties back, he has the right to a long productive life of atonement and responsibility... Whatever, I'm wasting my time. Just let the POS back onto the streets and wait for him to "wake up in a canoe" again...*


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jun 2006)

I've been told PTSD can take years to manifest.  I'm also told that if you have it you still know the difference between right and wrong.


----------



## Enzo (23 Jun 2006)

I erred with the bold feature in the above post, does it show?  ;D


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jun 2006)

yes


----------



## muffin (23 Jun 2006)

It is assclowns like this that make it so hard for soldiers with PTSD to seek help.  They really didn't need another stereotype! ... and the last thing the CF needs is for people to fear post-combatants attacking their children!

When my father came back from Africa (with PTSD) we knew that something wasn't right with some of the troops IMMEDIATLY.... While I am sure that sometimes it may be less noticeable for a few years - 12 years with no signs and then  WAHM assault a child... I don't think so amigo. 

I cannot express how utterly disappointed I am with our justice system in this case.... unspeakable really.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jun 2006)

Ask Zipperhead Cop what he feels about the courts. Whoa.


----------



## Enzo (23 Jun 2006)

Judges and reality aren't always peanut butter and chocolate.  :


----------



## Centurian1985 (23 Jun 2006)

I just read that story in the paper this morning.   Claiming PTSD induced a pedophile reaction?  What bullshit.


----------



## paracowboy (23 Jun 2006)

kneel down. Face the ditch. 

For this bastard, any other pedophiles in this nation, the judge, and anyone who would defend them.


----------



## ReadyandWilling (23 Jun 2006)

I think Charlei Daniels said it best " We tell our kids to just say know, than some panny waisted judge lets a drug dealer go"

I know this is talking about the wrong thing but you get the idea.

Also" You take them rascals out in the swamp, put 'em on there knees and tie 'em to a stump, let the rattlers and and bugs and the alligators do the rest" I think that would fit this guy perfectly.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Jun 2006)

...and just because Zipperhead Cop and I like to gloat. 

These stupid kinds of decisions  happens ALL THE TIME, the only reason this is news is because its a combination of ex- soldier, pedophilia and a first. [  a judge 100% buying the PTSD defence]

Where's Tamouth to defend this one??


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jun 2006)

What for it...............


----------



## Centurian1985 (23 Jun 2006)

I agree with your comments in that thread, but it got locked while I was out of town so couldnt add my 2 cents worth.  Read of too many instances where the issue is about whether there was enough evidence.  Like you said, its not about justice, its not about innocent or guilty, its about whether you can prove your case in court.  The judgement of 'innocent' often translates to 'they couldnt prove it' or 'couldnt convince the judge/jury' it was true'.


----------



## Enzo (23 Jun 2006)

Bruce - 100% concurrence. The problem for me is that I find myself not getting upset anymore. I use to get on some damned good rants back in the day against tons of cases, but now, I'm just used to it. Apathy? Acceptance? I dunno, troubles me that my blood pressure doesn't get too high anymore... oh well.


----------



## ReadyandWilling (23 Jun 2006)

I also agree with you Bruce, my dad is a memeber of the RCMP, and we see this kinda stuff all the time. My dad, IMO, has PTSD, but he still doesnt rape little girls.


----------



## the 48th regulator (23 Jun 2006)

> I love the timeline here, 12 years and his PTSD has manifested itself now in this way? Yeah, the drugs, alcohol, and intervening years were just problematic antecedents to his condition... riiiight.



Unfortunately these are all the signs of PTSD the abuse of of drugs and Alcohol to self medicate.  The actual traumatic incident is not the cause of PTSD, just the catalyst.  Iit is the way a person is treated and followed up with afterwards that causes the disorder to manifest itself and become worse.

However, it is this type of scum, that acts in a heinous way, then uses it as a get out of jail card.  Fine, treatment, and send him to a mental institution for further treatment for his pedophilia.

It is why some of us have such a hard time, his situation burns me up in more ways than most can imagine..

dileas

tess


----------



## blueliner (24 Jun 2006)

To all you good folks that bear the hidden scars of being in some rough places: sorry for any public misperceptions that will be created by this POS' "not me, my PTSD" defence. I know some who struggle may harm themselves and cause pain to those around them at times as we all can. Also know that most of you would be the first ones to defend against an assault. The guy's a pedophile, period. Too bad PTSD and former soldier is even a consideration.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (24 Jun 2006)

I agree with most of above and add this...if he's sick then he should be in an institution where he can get help. We used to put people who were as sick as this guy in places where they couldn't hurt other people...they were called asylums. Anyone who uses the defence that they are mentally not competant should be locked up for the protection of us all....your choice Jail or Asylum.
My heart goes out to the little girl and her family.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (24 Jun 2006)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> My heart goes out to the little girl and her family.



+1 to that.


----------



## TCBF (24 Jun 2006)

"Unfortunately these are all the signs of PTSD the abuse of of drugs and Alcohol to self medicate.  The actual traumatic incident is not the cause of PTSD, just the catalyst.  Iit is the way a person is treated and followed up with afterwards that causes the disorder to manifest itself and become worse."

- Actually, it is the lack of psych testing that allows deficient personalities into the military that allows this.

- Did the crown call any of his section mates to call him a flake?  No?  Sheer incompetence.


----------



## the 48th regulator (24 Jun 2006)

> - Actually, it is the lack of psych testing that allows deficient personalities into the military that allows this.



These types of characters, not those that suffer PTSD.

I agree with your comment, However, He may be suffering from PTSD, but that does not leave out that he suffers other deep rooted maladies that he is blaming PTSD as the true base of his problem.


dileas

tess


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (24 Jun 2006)

And it does not relieve him of being responsible for his own actions. We live in a world where no one is responsible for themselves anymore. They try to blame things on a bad childhood or an unloving parent. a traumatic incident in their lives etc. As a chaplain I've heard many excuses for why people do the things they do...in the end I urge people to take responsibility for their own lives...if they've done wrong to be a moral person and take responsibility...if they are mentally ill to take steps to seek professional treatment.
This "devil made me do it" defence should always be a non-starter..I don't except it from CF pers who try to trivialize their part in wrong doing and neither should the court(s).


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (24 Jun 2006)

I don't think anyone here said he still isn't responsible for his actions.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Jun 2006)

I'm not a shrink and don't pretend to know all about this stuff, but, IMHO he was obviously predisposed to pedophilia. PTSD was just a convenient excuse to put his fantasies to practice. Let's not lose sight of the major and compelling offence in this case. One can only hope that the poor child involved doesn't end up with her own case of PTSD because of this. No matter the reason, I still loath these guys and it disgusts me that we allow them to continue to prey on children. Failing long one way rides on dark nights, they should be rendered canotonic and locked away for good.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (24 Jun 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone here said he still isn't responsible for his actions.



I didn't say anyone here did. But the court did...that's what I'm commenting on. I'm commenting on the people who have tried that tact with me when they are in deep KA KA.


----------



## Hot Lips (24 Jun 2006)

How did I miss this thread...anyway, as far as I am aware and I did study psychology, abnormal psychology and psychiatric nursing I do not recall PTSD causing a response like this individuals.  Not sure why he would be acquitted unless he was temporarily insane or psychotic...but that wouldn't most likely be the PTSD...there very much could be an underlying co-morbid diagnosis...which means mental illnesses quite often present with two diagnosis...like substance abuse...alcoholism and nicotine addiction are quite often found together.

Nothing is impossible, but hey never the less something was taken from a little girl and will never be the same...that in itself is enough grounds for punishment IMO...whether you were aware of it or not.

Why don't these POS ever come after someone there own size   :threat:

HL


----------



## KevinB (24 Jun 2006)

I've got a fix for him -- a Black and Decker cordless drill


----------



## rogsco (25 Jun 2006)

One has to wonder where judges live. They seem to have no difficulty at all in putting all manner of scum back on the street and they don't seem all that concerned about it. I guess when they are sitting on committees to determine their own high salaries (to ensure judicial independence) they just make sure they can afford nice high-end neighbourhoods (preferably gated). Not-responsible due to PTSD is one of those ground breaking defences that we will now watch others use to get away with heinous crimes. Remember when the non-responsible due to being pissed out of my tree when I raped and killed defence was first used? Its just mind boggling that anyone can come up with a successful excuse for sexually assaulting children and that a judge would buy it. Rack up a win for the sick bas*ard Preadators who use children as their playthings. :rage: Funny how driving a car through a military building didn't stand up to the not-responsible to PTSD defence but preying on kids apparently will. That's some twisted priorities: in the future protect buildings, not children.

Oh, but all is not lost, this "innocent victim of PTSD" will have to spend a little bit of time in a psych facility to determine if he needs further treatment. I'll wager he will be free to troll the playgrounds inside of a month!


----------



## Hot Lips (25 Jun 2006)

rogsco said:
			
		

> One has to wonder where judges live. They seem to have no difficulty at all in putting all manner of scum back on the street and they don't seem all that concerned about it. I guess when they are sitting on committees to determine their own high salaries (to ensure judicial independence) they just make sure they can afford nice high-end neighbourhoods (preferably gated). Not-responsible due to PTSD is one of those ground breaking defences that we will now watch others use to get away with heinous crimes. Remember when the non-responsible due to being pissed out of my tree when I raped and killed defence was first used? Its just mind boggling that anyone can come up with a successful excuse for sexually assaulting children and that a judge would buy it. Rack up a win for the sick bas*ard Preadators who use children as their playthings. :rage: Funny how driving a car through a military building didn't stand up to the not-responsible to PTSD defence but preying on kids apparently will. That's some twisted priorities: in the future protect buildings, not children.
> 
> Oh, but all is not lost, this "innocent victim of PTSD" will have to spend a little bit of time in a psych facility to determine if he needs further treatment. I'll wager he will be free to troll the playgrounds inside of a month!


You are so right rogsco...he most likely will.
When I was a resident of NB a man had shot his wife...he received less jail time than a man who had shot a moose out of season, and the man who shot the moose lost most things, like his vehicle and rifle and the lot...the man who shot his wife lost nothing.
Makes you wonder.  My heart goes out to that poor dear child...we really are letting our children down as a society if these types of allowances prevail.

HL


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (25 Jun 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> You are so right rogsco...he most likely will.
> When I was a resident of NB a man had shot his wife...he received less jail time than a man who had shot a moose out of season, and the man who shot the moose lost most things, like his vehicle and rifle and the lot...the man who shot his wife lost nothing.
> Makes you wonder.  My heart goes out to that poor dear child...we really are letting our children down as a society if these types of allowances prevail.
> 
> HL



+1 to all that. 
I shook my head at that case down here of the poor guy who literally got his brains beaten out by a mob led by two women. At the trial the lawyers were arguing that one of the women was a single mom so shouldn't have to go to prison. The judge found a pair and sentenced her to prison but I don't think she served very much time. Meanwhile the poor victim has brain damage and phobias such that he lost his business and his social life......Is there justice anymore?


----------



## 1feral1 (25 Jun 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Claiming PTSD induced a pedophile reaction?  What bullshit.



Shaking head in DISGUST! 

Don't worry all, he'll re-offend sooner or later, and his judgement day will come. I do like the pick axe handle though.

Yet again another classic example of Canada's legal system, there has not been a justice system for a very long time.

SOF, give your head a shake, what do you hear? Nothing right.

Wes


----------



## orange.paint (25 Jun 2006)

It would be really interesting to see exactly what he was involved in overseas.I truly believe those who have "been in the ****" and have problems deserve compensation etc.But those who get piles of tax free every month due to them hearing an AK firing from 10km away (you know who you are) should be shot.
No doubt this guy is one of them.
Another black eye for the army,child rape,a murder of wife all in one year.
scumbags.


----------



## Hot Lips (26 Jun 2006)

Indeed rcac  

HL


----------



## pbi (26 Jun 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> It would be really interesting to see exactly what he was involved in overseas.



I wonder about this myself. IIRC, the description given in the paper was a bit suspect. This reminds me of an individual from the Army of the West who was involved in a highy publicized case a few years ago, in which he claimed PTSD for his actions in Canada. He blamed the PTSD on incidents in Croatia (during my tour there)that most definitely did not happen, but apparently neither the defense nor the military were aware of this nor wanted to bring it up, perhaps for fear of seeming to question or insult those who actually had suffered.

People who falsify PTSD or exploit it as a "get out of jail card" are insulting those solders who actually do suffer this condition.


Cheers


----------



## KevinB (26 Jun 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> This reminds me of an individual from the Army of the West who was involved in a highy publicized case a few years ago, in which he claimed PTSD for his actions in Canada. He blamed the PTSD on incidents in Croatia (during my tour there)that most definitely did not happen, but apparently neither the defense nor the military were aware of this nor wanted to bring it up, perhaps for fear of seeming to question or insult those who actually had suffered.
> 
> People who falsify PTSD or exploit it as a "get out of jail card" are insulting those solders who actually do suffer this condition.



The infamous Christian MacEachern fiasco...

I still want to puke over that one.


----------



## Centurian1985 (26 Jun 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> People who falsify PTSD or exploit it as a "get out of jail card" are insulting those solders who actually do suffer this condition.



This is exactly my point!  It also creates negative stereotypes of soldiers actually suffering from PTSD - just like after that crazy guy shot those women back when (cant remember the date, think it was in parliament?).  That became the sterotype for what happens to a soldier.  Im going to be awful pissed at the first person I meet who claims PTSD leads to pedophile activities...


----------



## orange.paint (26 Jun 2006)

ex 22 in Quebec city.

Has anyone found out what he has PTSD from?
Theres people with this from seeing a vehicle roll over, and my favorite of all

"I didn't adjust well coming home"

Now I think everyone is a little weary to walk on the grass (Bosnia) when they come home,but unless you were involved in some serious stuff...bull****.

So does this set us all up for a fall?When some pedophile comes home from overseas he has a freebie?His lawyer quoting this court case as a example.

Makes me sooooo angry (One minute in a dark room)


----------



## Chaz (26 Jun 2006)

gotta love Canada's justice system..I hate how some people in Canada are found guilty of murder and serve a BS sentence of 10-12 years


----------



## ReadyandWilling (27 Jun 2006)

Chaz said:
			
		

> gotta love Canada's justice system..I hate how some people in Canada are found guilty of murder and serve a BS sentence of 10-12 years


Yah I agree, or that B**** Homolka who was out in 12 fo rrape, torture and murder. The thing with the Canadian Justice system is that all people who go to jail, only serve 2/3rds of their sentance. Its actually in the criminal code that, thats all they have to serve.


----------



## pbi (27 Jun 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> This is exactly my point!  It also creates negative stereotypes of soldiers actually suffering from PTSD - just like after that crazy guy shot those women back when (cant remember the date, think it was in parliament?).  That became the sterotype for what happens to a soldier.  Im going to be awful pissed at the first person I meet who claims PTSD leads to pedophile activities...






> ex 22 in Quebec city.



If you guys are talking about Marc Lepine who murdered the 14 women at Ecole Polytechnique, he was not an "ex 22". In fact, AFAIK he was never a member of the CF at all, but was rejected at the CFRC. This may have contributed to his anger and frustration, but it had nothing to do with PTSD that is suffered by soldiers, firefighters, police officers and paramedics all across Canada. He was just a useless sicko.

If, on the other hand, you are talking about  Denis Lortie who  shot up the Quebec National Assembly, he wasn't a combat soldier either. IIRC he was a supply tech, possibly Air Force. The Master at Arms of the QNA, who was largely credited with defusing the situation, was a former R22er. Nothing to do wiith PTSD there either, AFAIK.

Cheers

Cheers


----------



## paracowboy (27 Jun 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> If you guys are talking about Marc Lepine who murdered the 14 women at Ecole Polytechnique, he was not an "ex 22". In fact, AFAIK he was never a member of the CF at all, but was rejected at the CFRC. This may have contributed to his anger and frustration, but it had nothing to do with PTSD that is suffered by soldiers, firefighters, police officers and paramedics all across Canada. He was just a useless sicko.
> 
> If, on the other hand, you are talking about  Denis Lortie who  shot up the Quebec National Assembly, he wasn't a combat soldier either. IIRC he was a supply tech, possibly Air Force. The Master at Arms of the QNA, who was largely credited with defusing the situation, was a former R22er. Nothing to do wiith PTSD there either, AFAIK.


IIRC, (and I seldom do) right on both counts


----------



## Centurian1985 (27 Jun 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> If you guys are talking about Marc Lepine who murdered the 14 women at Ecole Polytechnique, he was not an "ex 22". In fact, AFAIK he was never a member of the CF at all, but was rejected at the CFRC. This may have contributed to his anger and frustration, but it had nothing to do with PTSD that is suffered by soldiers, firefighters, police officers and paramedics all across Canada. He was just a useless sicko.
> If, on the other hand, you are talking about  Denis Lortie who  shot up the Quebec National Assembly, he wasn't a combat soldier either. IIRC he was a supply tech, possibly Air Force. The Master at Arms of the QNA, who was largely credited with defusing the situation, was a former R22er. Nothing to do wiith PTSD there either, AFAIK.



Actually was thinking of both incidents but did not have any current info on either incident.  Thanks for clarifying as I and everyone I ever discussed this with (other service members) had all thought that both were former R22er's.   

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/marc_lepine/index.html
The information on this link confirms what you said - Lepine was not ever a CF member, and Lortie was described as a 'former soldier'.


----------



## Yrys (27 Jun 2006)

> gotta love Canada's justice system..I hate how some people in Canada are found guilty of murder and serve a BS sentence of 10-12 years



Yep, and what about the pedophile Luc X, that a judge Lise Coté in Quebec
 from the appeal court, reduced the term in jail, because the dear 
daddy ONLY sodomized his little 2 years old, without any physical violence?!?

(reduced from 15 to 9)

By the way, there is a (french) petition to get judge Coté out of the bench...



http://www.mesopinions.com/Destituons-la-Juge-C%F4te-de-la-Cour-d-appel-du-Quebec-petition-petitions-2f733acaa8a2f6321c3e5b262cbfcf72.html<

Édit for spelling, sight


----------



## Steel Badger (27 Jun 2006)

Correct me if I am wrong....but is not Judge Cote the one who dropped charges against 2 Haitian "Landed-Immigrants" who had participated in a gang-rape in Montreal ......because it was considered "usual" in their home society?


SB


----------



## jumper664 (27 Jun 2006)

10 years ago in Bosnia was a cake walk. 
If he received PTSD 10 years ago in Bosnia (I was there at the time), he's weak and needs to put down like a dog

Airborne


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (27 Jun 2006)

ReadyandWilling said:
			
		

> Yah I agree, or that B**** Homolka who was out in 12 fo rrape, torture and murder. The thing with the Canadian Justice system is that all people who go to jail, only serve 2/3rds of their sentance. Its actually in the criminal code that, thats all they have to serve.



I would defer to a JAG on this but I'm not sure that this is exactly right. I'm not fan of this justice system don't get me wrong but this is the way I understand the system.

Life is life....the judge can say a) no possibility of parole b) parole in 25 years c) another set timing.
The Parole board makes the decision whether the person is fit to return to society. At 25 years if he's been a continuing problem in prison etc he will have to continue to serve his life sentence.
A person may be deemed a dangerous offender and thus never ever let out...Olsen, Bernardo etc fall into this category I think.

2/3rds mandotory release is only if they keep their nose clean and they still must face a parole board. Case here in NS of a guy who is suspected in a murder last week...He was  convicted drug dealer...served his full 40 months...got out and murdered a guy. He served full time cause he told the Board he would be back 40 times worse...a reference to his full sentence.

All of this stuff is about a liberal philosophy that says people should be "corrected" or "rehabilitated" rather than punished. That's why they renamed the system a number of years ago "Corrections Canada." It's all the same kind of goobledegook we get from social engineers about not spanking our kids etc.

The system is still bogus in my opinion...this faint hope thing at 25 years is supposed to give them incentive to turn their lives around and be good while in prison.

The new Government has promised stiffer sentences especially for gun crimes...let's hope they deliver.

This is one Padre who believes there is a special place in Hades for people like Olsen, Bernardo and others of his ilk.....and it's a very painful place. >


----------



## Hot Lips (27 Jun 2006)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Yep, and what about the pedophile Luc X, that a judge Lise Coté in Quebec
> from the appeal court, reduced the term in jail, because the dear
> daddy ONLY sodomized his little 2 years old, without any physical violence?!?
> 
> ...


Whatttttttt...that is physical and sexual and psychological abuse...
Dear lord.

HL


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jun 2006)

http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/whatsn/myths053001_e.htm#mythten

This is the Govt. "spin" website so take it with all the other "truths" like budget surplus's and such...... :


----------



## Centurian1985 (27 Jun 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/whatsn/myths053001_e.htm#mythten
> This is the Govt. "spin" website so take it with all the other "truths" like budget surplus's and such...... :



Im glad to hear you say it because I dont believe a lot of the stated 'realities' are realities, especially #15 about patronage appointments.   :


----------



## Roy Harding (27 Jun 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Actually was thinking of both incidents but did not have any current info on either incident.  Thanks for clarifying as I and everyone I ever discussed this with (other service members) had all thought that both were former R22er's.
> 
> http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/marc_lepine/index.html
> The information on this link confirms what you said - Lepine was not ever a CF member, and Lortie was described as a 'former soldier'.



Lortie was a Sup Tech, working at Carp at the time.  I _believe_ it was this employment which explained his access to arms (he had the keys to the wpns vault).


----------



## 1feral1 (28 Jun 2006)

One of the sickest crimes in the state of Western Australia happened yesterday. In fact, the whole country is in shock over this one.

An 8 yr old girl was raped and murdered in the toilet of a busy shopping centre. She was found by her 14 yr old brother.

The scumbag offender was caught (he actually hung around for an hour or so watching what was going on), in his 20's and had previously been convicted of raping another 8yr old girl, but was let off on a technicality. I cannot even begin to comprehend the trauma this girl's family is going through.

Now a child is dead, because of some loop hole in a seriously limp wristed legal system.

Thats justice in the modern western society we live in. Too many do-gooders and PCness, who wish not to offend. What a joke!

It blows, doesn't it.

For those that wanna know more about this sick crime, try www.news.com.au or google the subject matter


Totally disgusted,

Wes


----------



## Hot Lips (28 Jun 2006)

Just appalling Wes...

Where will it all end.
I still believe in old fashioned, look after your own, justice.

HL


----------



## 1feral1 (28 Jun 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> I still believe in old fashioned, look after your own, justice.
> 
> HL



I think you speak for the majority of normal people, including myself.

Regards,

Wes


----------



## garb811 (25 Jul 2006)

The Crown has appealed. Link to CBC story below.  Watch and shoot...

Appeal launched in ex-soldier sexual assault case


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Jul 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/whatsn/myths053001_e.htm#mythten
> 
> This is the Govt. "spin" website so take it with all the other "truths" like budget surplus's and such...... :











...any sense of balance of individuals rights to society's rights on the whole has been completely lost!  

Grrrrrrrr...
Duey


----------



## dutchie (25 Jul 2006)

As a parent I really feel for the parents of these 2 kids, especially the little Aussie girl's mum and dad. To have some predatory scumbag take away what is most dear to you, in such an awful way, must be completely shattering. I could not possibly imagine.

How is it that we, as a society, allow our children to be consumed by these animals? Are we not suposed to protect our children above all? If our system cannot protect our children from being the first victim (understandably tough), surely it can prevent a second victim? In the Canadian case we can now only wait for this 'person' to repeat his crime. Unfortunately, the 'person' from Australia (won't call him an 'Aussie', doesn't seem right) has already struck again. 

I can understand leniancy in lesser crimes (say, theft, tax evasion, etc), but how can a Judge not impose the stiffest of penalties on the worst kind of 'human'? There is nothing worse than a pedophile/child murderer, and if they don't deseve the full wrath of our 'Justice' system, who does? 

Life in prison, general population, problem solved.


----------



## GAP (21 Feb 2007)

Ex-soldier accused of breaking release conditions
Wed Feb 21 2007 By Mike McIntyre Winnipeg Free Press
Article Link 

A former Canadian soldier found not criminally responsible for a sex attack has been accused of breaching his court-ordered conditions only two months after being released back into the community. 
Roger Borsch, 35, was arrested Monday night and accused of failing to answer his telephone and knocks at the door during a routine curfew check. 

Borsch claims he was home at the time of Sunday's check but had taken a sleeping pill and didn't hear police trying to contact him. 

He spent a night in the Winnipeg Remand Centre before the Crown agreed to release him Tuesday on the same conditions he was under prior to his arrest. 

His case may now go back to the Manitoba Review Board, which decided in December to allow Borsch to leave the Health Sciences Centre psychiatric ward and go back to independent living under certain conditions. 

Borsch had been in the hospital since he convinced a judge last summer he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) at the time of the unprovoked 2004 sex attack in The Pas.    
The Crown -- and the victim's family -- were opposed to Borsch being released back into the community. 

The Crown is appealing the original decision of not criminally responsible that spared Borsch from facing a lengthy prison term and a hearing is expected in the spring. 

Queen's Bench Justice Nathan Nurgitz ruled during the trial Borsch was suffering from PTSD when he broke into a neighbour's home and attacked her sleeping 13-year-old girl in her bedroom at knifepoint. 

Borsch claims to have been haunted by the horrors of war stemming from a 1994 peacekeeping mission in Bosnia when he attacked the girl a decade later. 
More on link


----------



## orange.paint (21 Feb 2007)

dutchie said:
			
		

> As a parent I really feel for the parents of these 2 kids, especially the little Aussie girl's mum and dad. To have some predatory scumbag take away what is most dear to you, in such an awful way, must be completely shattering. I could not possibly imagine.
> 
> How is it that we, as a society, allow our children to be consumed by these animals? Are we not suposed to protect our children above all? If our system cannot protect our children from being the first victim (understandably tough), surely it can prevent a second victim? In the Canadian case we can now only wait for this 'person' to repeat his crime. Unfortunately, the 'person' from Australia (won't call him an 'Aussie', doesn't seem right) has already struck again.
> 
> ...



This aint no tough guy act.But I promise (a word I dont use lightly)if someone did that my my child they would pay dearly.Not saying it's correct to take the law into ones hand,however thats my everything on this earth.And if someone hurt them,they would pay.

There are plenty of members (A mod as well)who went through a tougher time than him in Bosnia.Poor excuse.
Thanks for the update on the scum bag GAP.


----------



## Flesh.Injected (21 Feb 2007)

Yeah this is a very touchy subject. It's hard to give an opinion unless you've had a similar event happen in your family. I wont get into details but I've had something VERY similar happen to a member of my immediate family and its a long, bumpy road. I sympathize with the girls parents and the girl herself. It is a terrible thing to have happen. But the system gives the final decision and that's what sticks.


----------



## the 48th regulator (22 Feb 2007)

Flesh.Injected said:
			
		

> Yeah this is a very touchy subject. It's hard to give an opinion unless you've had a similar event happen in your family. I wont get into details but I've had something VERY similar happen to a member of my immediate family and its a long, bumpy road. I sympathize with the girls parents and the girl herself. It is a terrible thing to have happen. But the system gives the final decision and that's what sticks.



Then do you actually think your user name is appropriate?

Just wondering as it can be misconstrued, especially in light of your post and this thread.

dileas

tess


----------



## Flesh.Injected (22 Feb 2007)

I do not think it has anything to do with the subject but I changed it. I did not realize that people would take offense, sorry about that.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (23 Feb 2007)

Mission Statement said:
			
		

> I do not think it has anything to do with the subject but I changed it. I did not realize that people would take offense, sorry about that.



nice new nick....welcom to Army.ca


----------



## Hawkeye (15 Mar 2007)

he may have been aquitted but it'll probably be a matter of time before someone gets to him on the streets


----------



## mudman (24 Apr 2007)

Hopefully they will have another trial, I heard about the case after it started and I did serve there when he did in the same platoon and everything he said happend was all lies. he does not have PTSD and should be in jail for what he did.


----------



## Osotogari (26 Apr 2007)

I guess I didn't make the connection until reading this thread, but I was in the same platoon as the accused during the tour in question.  Could someone could forward me the details of the alleged incidents and/or the jurisdiction involved so I can contact the prosecutor?

It's the least I can do.  I would have gone through everything he did and any excuse he's made is a stain on anything good we managed to do over there.


----------



## GAP (26 Apr 2007)

here is the original MSM link

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060622/soldier_ptsd_060622


----------



## Osotogari (26 Apr 2007)

Yeah, looks like him.  I'll try to contact the prosecutor.


----------



## mudman (27 Apr 2007)

Osotogari you have a PM ref trial


----------



## hunterphfr (25 May 2007)

Anybody ever come up with a unit and moc for this guy?


----------



## Good2Golf (25 May 2007)

hunterphfr said:
			
		

> Anybody ever come up with a unit and moc for this guy?



No, nor should anyone.  If someone wanted to know this information, they could.  It has no place being discussed here.


The Army.ca Staff


----------



## GAP (27 Sep 2007)

New Trial Ordered For Borsch
Article Link

Manitoba's high court has quashed a lower court decision that found a soldier not criminally responsible for a sex assault because of a mental problem.
The Manitoba Court of Appeal is ordering Roger Borsch to stand trial for a second time. Borsch claimed he sexually assaulted a teen girl in the Pas because he suffers from Post Traumatic Stress disorder from a tour of Bosnia in 1994.

Prosecutor Don Knight feels the former soldier's defense is no excuse.

Borsch's lawyer Greg Brodsky says he will appeal the decision to the Supreme Court of Canada.
More on link


----------



## mudman (27 Sep 2007)

I am glad to hear, having worked with the person in question and knowing the truth I just hope that justice will be served on the next trial, People like him should be behind bars where they belong.


----------



## GAP (27 Sep 2007)

A little more information from the Winnipeg Free Press 

New trial ordered for man found not criminally responsible for sex assault
Updated at 5:19 PM By Mike McIntyre  Winnipeg Free Press 
Article Link
   

The Manitoba Court of Appeal has ordered a new trial for a former soldier who was found not criminally responsible for a home invasion sex assault based on his claim of suffering post-traumatic stress disorder. 
Roger Borsch is “very disappointed” by the decision and will seek to appeal it to the Supreme Court of Canada, defence lawyer Greg Brodsky said outside court this morning. 

“He’s not holding up very well at all. This is an awful lot of tension for him,” he said. 

Borsch, 35, was spared criminal sanctions for the 2004 attack after the trial judge ruled that his mind had been affected by horrific killings he claims to have witnessed a decade earlier in Bosnia. 

It was the first time a Canadian soldier successfully used PTSD as a defence. 

Crown attorney Don Knight had told the Appeal Court there is little evidence the events Borsch described in Bosnia ever occurred and the judge was wrong to accept his claims.   
Knight pointed out that Borsch has given different versions of his story to psychiatrists over the years. And he said the military has no written records of the events, which Borsch has said include the death of a young Bosnian girl who came upon a landmine at a military checkpoint. 

“This is what we hoped for. The Crown’s position at trial is that he didn’t suffer PTSD. And even if he did, that was no excuse,” Knight said outside court. 

Borsch testified at his trial last year that it was normal for soldiers not to file reports on killings in the field, including an incident at a small house where Borsch said he came upon a man sexually assaulting a young girl and shot him dead. 

His lawyer agreed there are inconsistencies in how Borsch has recounted what happened, but said it is to be expected based on the trauma he experienced. 

At the time of the assault, Borsch was working as a jail guard in The Pas. 

He admitted to breaking into a home, taping a 13-year-old girl’s mouth shut and then attacking her at knifepoint. The girl eventually managed to free herself and scream for help. 

Borsch testified he only remembered waking up hours later in a canoe with no paddles on the Saskatchewan River. 

After he was found not responsible, Borsch spent several months in a psychiatric hospital. He was released last December with conditions. Borsch was granted bail today with the consent of the Crown. He will be under a nightly curfew, must abstain from drugs and alcohol and have no contact with the victim. 

www.mikeoncrime.com 
End of Article


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (27 Sep 2007)

Regardless of whether or not he has PTSD that doesn't stop him from knowing right from wrong.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (28 Sep 2007)

Exactly...and if this defence is to be accepted logically then he should be locked up somewhere secure where his erratic behaviour due to his "condition" can be monitored, treated and he can be kept from hurting the rest of us ever again.


----------



## PMedMoe (28 Sep 2007)

+1 Padre

It's like when people are found not guilty by reason of insanity.  What about being found *guilty* by reason of insanity?  Then there would be justification to put them in an institution (not prison) where they can be monitored/treated.
I wonder if this guy's psych exam included the question Is he a danger to himself or *others*?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Sep 2007)

PMedMoe,
To be truthful, there are times when being found _not_ guilty by reason of insanity is better for the public because, then the person can be put in an institution _until_ it can be proven that he/she is 'all better' now.

But, just like corrections, a lot of things come down to money...........................


----------



## FascistLibertarian (28 Sep 2007)

insanity is a defence that is rarely used and rarely successful. When it is used successfully the person often has a very hard time getting back out on the street. The whole use of the defence is overblown I think.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Sep 2007)

Actually its used all the time.......................I was drunk, PTSD, drugs, rage, all kinds of reasons. The secret is to make it a temporary thing, otherwise the above poster would be correct. Then it would be like what was said and it would make it a lot harder to get back out.


----------



## geo (28 Sep 2007)

.... I hear voices.......


----------



## JesseWZ (28 Sep 2007)

From what I understand, the defense of insanity, or moreso any defense comes down to intent. In Canadian law there are 2 types of intent, General Intent and Specific intent. Some charges only require general intent, and some require both. For example it is precedent in Canadian law that when drunk one can form general intent, but not specific intent and is often the reason murder charges are reduced to manslaughter; as in Canadian Law  murder requires "specific intent." This is all a legal notion and has no roots in pyschology or pyschiatry or any other kind of "try."  To be convicted the Crown will have to prove that the accused could form specific intent at the time of the event, and as well knew his right from wrong.


----------



## PMedMoe (15 Nov 2007)

Ex-soldier in PTSD sexual assault case back in custody for breaching bail conditions including those requiring him to abstain from alcohol and not contact the victim or her family.

Article Link


----------



## GAP (4 Apr 2008)

Family welcomes soldier's new trial
By: Mike McIntyre Updated: April 4 at 06:04 AM CDT 
Article Link

A Manitoba family is praising for the country's highest court for refusing to hear an appeal from a former soldier who claims post-traumatic stress disorder drove him to commit a horrifying crime. 

Roger Borsch wanted the Supreme Court of Canada to find him not criminally responsible for his actions based on mental illness.

His bid was rejected Thursday. No reasons were given.

The decision means Borsch will now face a second trial on charges including sexual assault with a weapon and break-and-enter.

Borsch, 35, doesn't dispute the fact he broke into a northern Manitoba home and attacked a 13-year-old girl at knifepoint in 2004.

But he was found not guilty at his original trial in 2006 after Queen's Bench Justice Nathan Nurgtiz agreed with Borsch's claims that his mind had been affected by horrific killings he said he witnessed a decade earlier in Bosnia.

The Crown appealed and the Manitoba Court of Appeal overturned Nurgitz's decision last year on the grounds he failed to make specific findings of fact regarding Borsch's alleged war horrors were which being challenged by the Crown.

Without those findings, Nurgitz shouldn't have accepted expert psychiatric and psychological evidence which supported Borsch's claim of PTSD.

No new trial date has been set.
More on link


----------



## GUNS (4 Apr 2008)

Should be an eyeopener for all those that may consider PTSD as an excuse for their actions.
It will be a difficult task for the courts to separate the legitimate PTSD cases from the bogus ones.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Apr 2008)

His defence is not sound. There is no excuse for raping a 13 year old.
He stated that he shot and killed a man for raping a girl in Bosnia. As I understand it (Croatia 93 and Bosnia 97) we were issued a specific number of rounds per man and each had to be accounted for at end tour, if I remember correctly. So when he turned his ammunition in, did he turn in the amount he was issued?
I think his peers and his OC should be called to testify for the Crown. They would have some very pertinent information.


----------



## geo (4 Apr 2008)

Hmmm.... Might as well give him a handgun and ONE bullet AND tell him to deal with the rapist.
Turn out the lights and close the door..........we,ll send in housekeeping in the morning


----------



## armyvern (4 Apr 2008)

GUNS said:
			
		

> Should be an eyeopener for all those that may consider PTSD as an excuse for their actions.
> It will be a difficult task for the courts to separate the legitimate PTSD cases from the bogus ones.


In certain cases, but even then there should be a SIR on file which would be capable of verifying "witness to horrible incidents" should buddy later develop PTSD. But, with ALL the forward movement on PTSD made by the CF/VAC in recent years -- and the NECESSITY of deployed soldiers to attend PTSD awareness briefings -- there's not one who could claim to be "simply undiagnosed until now because I didn't know where to go for help". That's a bogus line in this day and age.

I guess my litmus test would be:

Was buddy diagnosed with PTSD_ before _ any crime occured? 

OR

Is buddy now claiming PTSD _after_ being "_caught_" in a criminal act. If so, there should be a record of any SIs that he was involved in -- they are reported of the post-deployment medicals these days.


----------



## mudman (5 Apr 2008)

OldSolduer you are correct they did keep a count of the ammo issued, One of his peers was at the first trial but the judge would not allow him to testify. If he is allowed to testify at the next trial with any other of his peers who come forward the outcome will be very different I think.


----------



## GAP (12 Sep 2008)

Borsch Pleads Guilty  
CJOB's Jeff Keele reporting 9/12/2008 
Article Link

A former Manitoba soldier who claimed he sexually assaulted a teen girl and didn't remember because of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder has decided not to go to trial again.

Roger Borsch has pleaded guilty for breaking into the girl's home in The Pas and attacking her. As part of a plea bargain the former soldier has accepted a three-year prison sentence minus a year for time already served in custody.

Borsch was found not criminally responsible at trial but that verdict was overturned by the Manitoba Court of Appeal and a new trial was ordered.

Borsch claimed he had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder because of atrocities he witnessed while on a tour of Bosnia in the early 90's.
More on link

Soldier jailed 3 years for sexual assault
By: Mike McIntyre  Updated: September 12 at 12:20 PM CDT 
Article Link

A former Canadian soldier has done a dramatic legal flip-flop and pleaded guilty to breaking into a neighbour's home and sexually assaulting a 13-year-old girl at knifepoint.

Roger Borsch, 36, was given three years in prison this morning under a joint-recommendation between Crown and defence lawyers. He was given double-time credit for six months already served, plus an additional two years behind bars.

Borsch had previously gone to trial and made national headlines when he was found not criminally responsible after becoming the first soldier successfully use post-traumatic stress disorder as a defence for his crimes.

He didn't dispute the facts of the case but was found not guilty of the 2004 attack for reasons of a mental disorder.

Queen's Bench Justice Nathan Nurgitz agreed with Borsch's claims that his mind had been affected by horrific killings he said he witnessed a decade earlier in Bosnia.

The Crown appealed, and Manitoba's highest court agreed last year to overturn the verdict and order a new trial. Borsch then tried to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada but was rejected.

Borsch told court at trial he was haunted by the horrors of what he witnessed during a 1994 peacekeeping mission when he attacked the girl a decade later.

He claims to have personally killed five people, including a Serbian soldier he caught raping an eight-year-old girl. Doctors who testified in his defence claimed Borsch may have been "acting out" what he'd witnessed.

The Crown argued at trial that Borsch has given different versions of his story to psychiatrists over the years. And he said the military has no written records of the events, which Borsch has said also include the death of a young Bosnian girl who came upon a landmine at a military checkpoint.

Nurgitz's decision to clear him of criminal wrongdoing sparked debate and reaction across the country, including several former soldiers who questioned Borsch's war stories.

Borsch was spared jail in exchange for a trip to a mental health facility, where he spent a few months getting treatment until his release in December 2006 when a provincial review board determined he didn't pose a risk to the public. He had been free in the community ever since.

The Crown had planned to call several of those soldiers had the case gone to trial again. Defence lawyer Greg Brodsky said today his client now admits some of the incidents he recounted may simply be a product of the PTSD he was suffering and didn't actually occur.

At the time of the assault, Borsch was working as a jail guard in The Pas. 

Borsch claimed to be in a catatonic-like state when he broke into the a co-worker's home in the middle of the night, taped her teen daughter's mouth shut and then attacked her at knifepoint. The girl eventually managed to free herself and scream for help. 

Borsch testified he only remembered waking up hours later in a canoe with no paddles on the Saskatchewan River.
More on link


----------



## Teflon (13 Sep 2008)

> He claims to have personally killed five people, including a Serbian soldier he caught raping an eight-year-old girl. Doctors who testified in his defence claimed Borsch may have been "acting out" what he'd witnessed.





> The Crown argued at trial that Borsch has given different versions of his story to psychiatrists over the years. And he said the military has no written records of the events, which Borsch has said also include the death of a young Bosnian girl who came upon a landmine at a military checkpoint.





> The Crown had planned to call several of those soldiers had the case gone to trial again. Defence lawyer Greg Brodsky said today his client now admits some of the incidents he recounted may simply be a product of the PTSD he was suffering and didn't actually occur.



EXEACTLY! 

Even if his war-stories where true, PTSD is no excuse to rape a child, for that there is no bloody excuse! Sadly he didn't get MORE time, much more time!


----------



## geo (13 Sep 2008)

Well, I for one am glad that this fella has thought better of it and has come clean

The act was despicable and no amount of PTSD should justify / explain / mitigate what he has done.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Sep 2008)

It wasn't him having a sudden attack of the guilts that prompted his plea.

His a$$ was going to be fried hard by the system. He was looking at a lot more time than he got.


----------

