# Are We Raising a Generation of Helpless Kids?



## dimsum (24 Feb 2012)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/Mickey-goodman/are-we-raising-a-generati_b_1249706.html

I don't have kids, but I won't be the parent who blames the teacher b/c my kid failed a test.  If anything, I'd side with him/her.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Feb 2012)

Every time I walk into the armoury on a parade night, I am convinced that articles like this are wrong.


----------



## jeffb (24 Feb 2012)

:goodpost:

Couldn't agree more. Are there people out there who have raised their kids to be idiots? Yes. There are however lots of great young adults out there who are actually accomplishing something. People just don't hear about it because the 20 year old future PM's and leaders aren't going around telling everyone how great they are. They are putting themselves through school or doing an entry level job to gain experience. 

I think this is just a case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease.


----------



## Pieman (24 Feb 2012)

I also agree. The generation of people just behind me are some of the most intelligent, well informed, balanced and mature people I met. I was speaking to a 19 year old who had RRSP savings, an investment account, and was just starting up his own company.  These are people who grew up with the internet in full swing and I think it has a direct impact on them. 

On the flip side, I also met a 19 year old (in the army oddly enough)  who had a number of physical assault charges, drunk driving, a sexual assault charge, and last I heard he was caught smoking drugs in the shacks. This was over a three year period that I knew him. Growing up, I had not met anyone who came close to that level of messed up...and he has a job.

It's like Lt.Col. Dave Grossman (Guy who wrote 'On Killing') said in a lecture: 'The kids today are really really good. It has to be one of the brightest and most focused generation in our history. On the flip side, the bad kids today are really really bad! They are some of the worst kids ever seen. And they are scaring the hell out of the good kids. One day, the good kids are going to clean house. It's in the cards.' (paraphrased)


----------



## Rogo (29 Feb 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I don't have kids, but I won't be the parent who blames the teacher b/c my kid failed a test.  If anything, I'd side with him/her.



Big point to take out of what Dimsum wrote is that the kid failed the test, the teacher didn't fail the kid.

It is important to realise the difference. 

I don't think the generation is helpless but I do think that there are self-created barriers that have (in general) allowed laziness to exist. This in some families would result in the over-involvement of parents in the development of young adults.

I can't speak so much to the over-involved parents as I am not that close with my family but I can certainly attest to the generations getting more and more lazy, its something now that I still am guilty of.


----------



## Kitty (29 Feb 2012)

I am apalled at how parents are spoiling their children these days. I agree it is not all of them but the majority of my friends all spoil their children to the point of having demanding rotten kids. Why do 5 and 6 year olds need X-boxes and DS and a laptop to play computer games. When I was a kid my parents told us to play outside and when we were bored to use our imaginations to become unbored. I just feel sad wondering what will happen to these kids who are fed a diet of tv and games all day.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Feb 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I don't have kids, but I won't be the parent who blames the teacher b/c my kid failed a test.  If anything, I'd side with him/her.



http://devinbest.posterous.com/actual-message-on-school-answering-machine-in


----------



## ModlrMike (29 Feb 2012)

Courtesy of Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/palisades.asp

Sorry to ruin your fun.

Just the same, I agree with the sentiment.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Feb 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Courtesy of Snopes:
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/palisades.asp
> 
> ...



When did Pacific Palisades High School move from California to be renamed Maroochydore High 
School in Queensland, Australia?


[EDIT TO ADD]


This is a better link to verify that it is a hoax:

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/maroochydore-school-answering-machine-hoax.shtml


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Feb 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Every time I walk into the armoury on a parade night, I am convinced that articles like this are wrong.


Keep in mind you're looking at a specific, reasonably motivated sub-set of "young people".  I, too, am impressed by young people I see on parade squares and working in the Reserves and Cadets.  The best of today's youth are very, VERY good!

On the other hand, I hear VERY different stories from my partner who teaches in university:  students too lazy to do even the most basic research; students whining for extra marks when the marking scheme is clear; students not understanding the concept of being responsible for managing their time.  And it's not JUST first year students.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Feb 2012)

You don't have to go far to find examples.  Look on this site in the Recruiting Threads at posts made by persons claiming to have university educations.  Their posts and claims are a definite insult to the reputations of some of these institutions of higher learning.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Feb 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You don't have to go far to find examples.  Look on this site in the Recruiting Threads at posts made by persons claiming to have university educations.  Their posts and claims are a definite insult to the reputations of some of these institutions of higher learning.


Never even thought of that.

To be entirely fair, even my sweetie echoes Grossman:  the keeners of this generation are HUGELY keen.  Many of the others?  Not so much....


----------



## Danjanou (29 Feb 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Every time I walk into the armoury on a parade night, I am convinced that articles like this are wrong.



You change units? 

Seriously I agree with milnews this is a small representation and there are others too, but at the other extreme and in the very large middle of this group are some things that make me glad I'm old and won't be around to see how bad things will be when they take over. Bear in mind D&B where I work and what I do for a living.


----------



## Maxadia (29 Feb 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Every time I walk into the armoury on a parade night, I am convinced that articles like this are wrong.



Come teach high school with me ( or anyone else for that matter) for a full month.


----------



## ModlrMike (29 Feb 2012)

It wouldn't take a month where I work.


----------



## MAJONES (29 Feb 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Come teach high school with me ( or anyone else for that matter) for a full month.



I taught HS for 10 years.  I'm with daftandbarmy.


----------



## Smirnoff123 (29 Feb 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Come teach high school with me ( or anyone else for that matter) for a full month.



And when you were in highschool what did your teachers think of your generation? I'd imagine that  they had a similar opinion.


----------



## Maxadia (29 Feb 2012)

MAJONES said:
			
		

> I taught HS for 10 years.  I'm with daftandbarmy.



Things have gone downhill even more in the past 10 years.  Unless you have taught with the full effect of cellphones, it's probably different.

And yes, my high school teachers had probably some of the same things to say about a lot of us....but not to this extent.  The pleasant economic outlook here in Alberta has most of the students thinking that they can walk into any job they like, without the education they need.

THAT certainly wasn't the outlook we had in high school in the late 80's in PEI.


----------



## Smirnoff123 (29 Feb 2012)

I find that hard to believe. That may be the case in Alberta, but I know in Ontario it is not. Years ago you could get a decent job without even completing highschool, now with just a high school diploma you are hard pressed to get anything better than a minimum wage job.


----------



## Maxadia (29 Feb 2012)

C.G.R said:
			
		

> I find that hard to believe.



I'm a little confused as to what you aren't believing.


----------



## Smirnoff123 (29 Feb 2012)

The fact that you claim your generation had a much better grasp on the need for education, when you could still get a decent job without a highschool diploma.

This is no longer the case, and the current generation is well aware that education has never been as necessary as it is now.


----------



## GnyHwy (1 Mar 2012)

I'm going to jump in on this conversation because I have three of my own that are all elementary school age.  I will also go out on a limb, and against the grain from what is probably popular opinion of most posters in this thread.

I don't believe we challenge them enough.  My oldest does very well in school and is bored out of his skull.  The information that is processed by children today dwarfs anything that was available during our generation.  The learning approaches that we used are not sufficient anymore.  Sifting through 100lbs of books is old hat; hard books still have their value, but to keep today's kids interested, we need to liven things up.  I think a lot of teachers, particularly younger ones are keen to this, but unfortunately they don't have the power to change things. 

It was our generation that created this technological monster all in the name of convenience and entertainment.  We cannot fault our kids for embracing it.  We should utilize it and pick up the pace.


----------



## Pieman (1 Mar 2012)

When I was young we had to walk in 10 feet of snow, up a hill, both ways, to school. These darn kids today....


----------



## Maxadia (1 Mar 2012)

C.G.R said:
			
		

> The fact that you claim your generation had a much better grasp on the need for education, *when you could still get a decent job without a highschool diploma.*



Guess you either missed the fact that I grew up in PEI, not Ontario....or you grew up thinking that because you lived in Ontario, everywhere else must have been the same.  : Quite simply, we couldn't.

Trust me....late 80's, early 90's....you could staff your entire front line at Tim Horton's in the Atlantic Provinces with Bachelor degrees.  We definitely knew that we couldn't get decent jobs without a good education, because where we lived, we couldn't.  

As for challenging students - you're exactly correct.  When I was in school, we had two main streams...academic, and general.  Now, in some high schools across the country, we have 10-1, 10-2, 10-3, 10-4....and each one is a "lower class" of students.  We used to have to have an "academic" graduation certificate to get into any university....now, you can pick lower level courses than the -1 courses ("dash 1") and still get in.  So what do kids do?  Choose the lower level course in order to do less work, but not mess up chances to get into a university or college program. When I went, if you chose the General stream, you could only get into vocational school...no university at all.

Yes, things are different now.


----------



## jparkin (1 Mar 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> We used to have to have an "academic" graduation certificate to get into any university....now, you can pick lower level courses than the -1 courses ("dash 1") and still get in.  So what do kids do?  Choose the lower level course in order to do less work, but not mess up chances to get into a university or college program.



I have some friends who, even though they were fully capable and would have excelled, opted to not take the honours level courses in high school. Those same friends are with me now in first year, and the difference between them and those who got the hard work done early is palpable. It is up to students to motivate themselves and create their own success in my opinion. Just because you get into university, doesn't mean you will do well enough to stay there. I would argue that it is up to youth to take responsibility for their own educations and invest in their future, even if it means taking the hard road. :2c:

Jonathan


----------



## ballz (1 Mar 2012)

C.G.R said:
			
		

> This is no longer the case, and the current generation is well aware that education has never been as necessary as it is now.



Unfortunately, they are under the impression that "education" means "university." They aren't really "aware," if anything I'd say they've got the blinders on.



			
				RDJP said:
			
		

> We used to have to have an "academic" graduation certificate to get into any university....now, you can pick lower level courses than the -1 courses ("dash 1") and still get in.  So what do kids do?  Choose the lower level course in order to do less work, but not mess up chances to get into a university or college program. When I went, if you chose the General stream, you could only get into vocational school...no university at all.
> 
> Yes, things are different now.



And sadly, it's teachers and parents with this kind of attitude that's causing it and reinforcing it.

Not trying to "call you out" RDJP, I know you didn't mean it the way I am underlining it and making it sound... I just think it comes so natural to us to assume that vocational arts are a second-place prize for those that just aren't "cut out" for university.

I went to high school in Alberta, I've seen the English 30-1 and 30-2, and heard how "dash one is for people going to university" and "dash two is for people going into trades," same idea with Pure Math and Applied Math. Or how, "if you want to get into university you'll need "x" average... if you don't, you'll end up in the trades."

We really need to take university off it's pedestal, and it starts with parents and teachers...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2012)

The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.

Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.


----------



## Journeyman (1 Mar 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ...ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.


As well as having a skill to barter -- there's a whole tax-free sub-economy of people trading marketable skills/chores. 


Sorry kids, it doesn't matter what your Marxist Labour history prof (who's never seen a callus or blister in his life) tells you, you're not likely to get someone to upgrade your kitchen plumbing in exchange for a rivetting paper on Foucault's economic theories.


----------



## Sadukar09 (1 Mar 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.
> 
> Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.


This.

The education inflation is pretty annoying. Right now, a Bachelor's degree means a equivalent of high school diploma decades ago. The thing is, society raised us thinking higher education is extremely important. The downfall of that, is universities let just about anyone in that can pay. The things we learn in 1st or even 2nd year courses are almost a review of Grade 11/12. The papers we write? Maxed around 10 pages for 1st-2nd years. I was writing that for Grade 12 English.

Personal note: My parents don't believe me a plumber will make more money than a doctor soon.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Mar 2012)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> I don't believe we challenge them enough.  My oldest does very well in school and is bored out of his skull.  The information that is processed by children today dwarfs anything that was available during our generation.  The learning approaches that we used are not sufficient anymore.  Sifting through 100lbs of books is old hat; hard books still have their value, but to keep today's kids interested, we need to liven things up.  I think a lot of teachers, particularly younger ones are keen to this, but unfortunately they don't have the power to change things.


Good point - how many "bad kids" are really "bored kids"?  Not ALL, mind you, but some.  I know 9D uses all sorts of ways to keep classes interesting - role playing, team work (and do they ever learn the concept of "coursemanship" like on military courses!), simulations, some short writing tasks (in fact, she gets picked on by some colleagues because she doesn't give enough essays or long-form writing assignments - and some students prefer the "two essays and one final exam" mode because they can procrastinate).  The keeners truly keen out, and the weiners are truly Oscar Meyer quality in their weiner-ness.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.


Part of this is that more employers are using the degree as an easy "screen in" criterion.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.


ZACKLY!!!!!  That's why it's so hard to find decent trade folk (at least here in northern Ontario, where a lot of trade folk are out west escaping closing paper mills).


			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> As well as having a skill to barter -- there's a whole tax-free sub-economy of people trading marketable skills/chores.


ZACKLY x 2!!!


----------



## RangerRay (1 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> We really need to take university off it's pedestal, and it starts with parents and teachers...



 :goodpost:  

I say that as a uni grad.  (A degree with little market value in this market   )

On another note, 9D teaches at a uni, and every day she pulls her hair out at the writing and critical thinking skills of her students.  I'm far from an English major, but the writing skills of these uni students is shocking.  I don't think I was ever that bad, even in elementary school!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2012)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> I say that as a uni grad.  (A degree with little market value in this market   )
> 
> On another note, 9D teaches at a uni, and every day she pulls her hair out at the writing and critical thinking skills of her students.  I'm far from an English major, but the writing skills of these uni students is shocking.  I don't think I was ever that bad, even in elementary school!



eg:


----------



## Maxadia (1 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> Not trying to "call you out" RDJP, I know you didn't mean it the way I am underlining it and making it sound... I just think it comes so natural to us to assume that vocational arts are a second-place prize for those that just aren't "cut out" for university.



No problem.   8)  They definately aren't second-rate - I was just stating that those were your options at the time.  And I agree that the thinking that they are second-rate comes naturally to most.

Now, students have many more options, and see that as meaning that they don't need to work as hard.  We do need smart people.  Unfortunately, by streaming students into four different streams of ability, it has allowed students to choose a level below where they should be, or even two.  It's a hard fight for us, as we can't keep parents from placing their students into a lower class....we can keep them out of a higher level class if the marks aren't there, but not the opposite.

One things we did this past month with my classes was to move some students who did NOT have the marks for a certain course, into one of my courses one level higher because we knew they had the ability to do the course work.  Otherwise, it's too easy for them, and then it's just behaviour problems all around.  By moving them up a level, they then end up in a class where they need to put in a little more effort, and do not have time to fool around.  Work ethic improves, and usually their mark improves too.  Most parents were behind the idea, once we told them we thought their student could do the work.

However, there are students out there with parents who can't listen to the whining about how difficult the course is, and let the child choose to work at a lower level.  And unfortunately, our school systems don't allow us to fail students as much as we should.


----------



## Pusser (1 Mar 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The whole fallacy that you have to have a university education to get anywhere is one of the major reasons that this country is increasingly short of skilled trades people.
> 
> Most kids today think they can make $100K\ year with a degree in liberal arts and languish selling lattes at Starbucks, while the very few, really smart ones take three years at college and three years apprenticeship, working with their hands, ending in $30-$50\ hour skilled trade jobs.



Ummm.  I have a liberal arts degree (History) and I make over $100K/year....   I joined the Navy! ;D

However, I still can't afford to hire tradespeople, which is why I do all my home maintenance/renovation myself (but I took shop in junior high school as well).  Many folks today can't even do that, which is also a problem and the existing tradespeople are certainly taking advantage of it.  It's kind of funny to watch all the trades vans in my neighbours' driveways.  They barely even change their own light bulbs and often ask me for advice.  

The last tradesperson I asked for a quote estimated over $1000 (with a military discount) to install an old sink (that I provided) in a counter (that I built), in an unfinished basement workshop, next to a drain and with a water supply only 10' away.  He seemed rather shocked when I explained that I would go without the sink altogether rather than pay that.  I ended up having a contractor friend do it for $300.  I would have done it myself if I didn't suck at plumbing (I just get wet).  My wife and I refer to this as getting the "Country Club quote."


----------



## ballz (1 Mar 2012)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> On another note, 9D teaches at a uni, and every day she pulls her hair out at the writing and critical thinking skills of her students.  I'm far from an English major, but the writing skills of these uni students is shocking.  I don't think I was ever that bad, even in elementary school!



I truly don't believe anything will ever top the fact that I've come across two fourth-year business students at MUN that don't know the difference between profit and revenue. 

The only thing I've seen that's come close so far was one of the business profs (with a PhD from U of Waterloo) that didn't know what the Auto Pact is...


----------



## Occam (1 Mar 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The last tradesperson I asked for a quote estimated over $1000 (with a military discount) to install an old sink (that I provided) in a counter (that I built), in an unfinished basement workshop, next to a drain and with a water supply only 10' away.  He seemed rather shocked when I explained that I would go without the sink altogether rather than pay that.  I ended up having a contractor friend do it for $300.  I would have done it myself if I didn't suck at plumbing (I just get wet).  My wife and I refer to this as getting the "Country Club quote."



You need only tune into "Holmes Inspection" or "Holmes on Homes" to see what paying someone $300 for a job will get you, vice paying someone who knows the rules inside out, gets all the right permits and has all the right tools $1000 for the same job.  You get what you pay for, in most cases.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> I truly don't believe anything will ever top the fact that I've come across two fourth-year business students at MUN that don't know the difference between profit and revenue.


Or 3rd year poli sci students spelling frigate "friggit" in a paper and a presentation.....


----------



## Maxadia (1 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> I truly don't believe anything will ever top the fact that I've come across two fourth-year business students at MUN that don't know the difference between profit and revenue.
> 
> The only thing I've seen that's come close so far was one of the business profs (with a PhD from U of Waterloo) that didn't know what the Auto Pact is...



How about the fact that we now have students in EDUCATION programs that are requiring READERS and SCRIBES for their classwork?


----------



## George Wallace (1 Mar 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> ..............  And unfortunately, our school systems don't allow us to fail students as much as we should.



This is not systemic only to the school systems.  We even see it happening within the CF.  Weak supervisors/managers/leaders have avoided counselling, disciplining, failing and/or Releasing "Administrative Burdens" or "problem children"; instead promoting and/or posting them to other units.  Our whole society seems to have forgotten how to have the courage to say "NO".

Look at our Recruiting Threads, again, to see how many feel entitled to join the CF, even though they may not/never meet the universality of service.


----------



## Maxadia (1 Mar 2012)

Very true.  One of the reasons I left retail management and returned to teaching was that the idot who threatened to come down to the store with a gun and blow everyone away was given a two week suspension - on paper only - by the IR because it might be an undue hardship to him economically.

I went to our convention next week and listened to our outgoing President state that we weren't going to mollycoddle people who made threats like that - "NO! Fire their ass on the spot!"

Unfortunately, he was the OUTGOING president....I was pleased to be leaving the week after him.


We give in way to much in society today.  That's not the same as it has always been.


----------



## Journeyman (1 Mar 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Our whole society seems to have forgotten how to have the courage to say "NO".


The women around here haven't.    :'(


----------



## Sadukar09 (1 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The women around here haven't.    :'(











			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Or 3rd year poli sci students spelling frigate "friggit" in a paper and a presentation.....


Maybe they are writing about their feelings on the paper.
When I first immigrated here, it was a huge culture shock, especially on education. Back in China, if anyone failed, there was no coddling. Failing means going back to the farm and toiling soil all day. Here, so many chances are given, it's unbelievable. I worked for OCDSB for a while, from talking with the teachers (strangely they ARE people, not just robots they seem to be in classes), quite a few of them give out passes to students that shouldn't be passing. Same thing with marking schemes in high school report cards now. To fail a class, you literally have to try harder to fail than pass. A 50% mark pretty much means the teacher was being kind, and didn't fail you. 51% means someone tried at least.

Edit for grammar and syntax. Just finished a paper...


----------



## Maxadia (1 Mar 2012)

You wouldn't believe the pressure on teachers and principals to make sure students "perform" on paper (statistics).  If they're not passing, we're not doing a good job, right?

I'm sure the pressure is the same in many cases when it comes to running a CF course.


----------



## Pusser (1 Mar 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> You need only tune into "Holmes Inspection" or "Holmes on Homes" to see what paying someone $300 for a job will get you, vice paying someone who knows the rules inside out, gets all the right permits and has all the right tools $1000 for the same job.  You get what you pay for, in most cases.



Yes, you do get what you pay for, but sometimes what is being sold is far more than what you need or want.  A good example of that is when I banged the bumper on my truck a few years ago (well, actually CinC Home Fleet did it, but I digress).  All I wanted from the body shop was to bang out the dent as best they could and re-paint the bumper for rust protection - it was a pick-up truck!.  They claimed that, "it wouldn't look right" and insisted that the bumper had to be replaced (for $1000).  I found another place who did what I asked, for about $300 (funny how these numbers keep coming up the same).  The end result, yes, if you look really close, you can see that the bumper undulates a little bit, but it isn't rusty - which is ALL I wanted.

I'm a big fan of Mike Holmes and like a lot of the stuff he does, but sometimes he does go over the top.  Sometimes, "the best" is too much (and prohibitively expensive) and "good enough under the circumstances" is actually the better solution.  Perhaps if more contractors presented more options (with an explanation of the pros and cons), instead of the costliest, most expensive, "will survive the apocalypse" solution, they might a) get more business and b) discourage many customers from going to the shoddy underground trade.

As for my $300 sink installation - it works a charm and does exactly what I want it to do without any grief whatsoever.  The only reason I didn't go to my friend in the first place is because I didn't know he did plumbing as well.


----------



## Scott (1 Mar 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Every time I walk into the armoury on a parade night, I am convinced that articles like this are wrong.



Every time I read the recruiting threads...ah fuck it, never mind.

I use some underground stuff for trades work...it depends on what I need done and if the guy is willing to bend. Sometimes it's better not to. I've educated myself enough to know the difference. As far as craftsmanship goes, I work to pretty high standards and so anyone hired by me is going to have to do the same. I vet any workmen coming to do jobs that I can't handle and the wife chases anyone that messes with us (as one idiot WETT inspector just found out...it was one of those, "Hey pal, don't look at me, I'm married to her" moments. Anyway)

There is too much coddling going on and other cultures have proven that they can best us by not putting the child as number one all the time. Hell, I still thank my lucky stars that a) Daddy told me my wrist shot sucked so I'd never make the Leafs, b) I believed him, and c) they had an injury free year that go 'round and didn't need to bring me in. I also took a look at university and decided that my time would be better spent at the coalface. Now I earn as much as my degreed and professional wife, have less stress and more time off plus the added (sometimes) bonus of shiploads of travel on the company dime. Then again, I worked for it


----------



## Maxadia (1 Mar 2012)

There needs to be an allowance for consequences to happen.  And unfortunately, there isn't.  

We're not supposed to put zeros on report cards anymore....unless it's marked as missing and we are actively chasing the student for it.  Which many teachers do.  I _try_ to put consequences in place so that I'm not chasing them, but not everyone does.  Students realize with some teachers that if they don't do it now, they can always do it later.


----------



## Danjanou (1 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> As well as having a skill to barter -- there's a whole tax-free sub-economy of people trading marketable skills/chores.
> 
> 
> Sorry kids, it doesn't matter what your Marxist Labour history prof (who's never seen a callus or blister in his life) tells you, you're not likely to get someone to upgrade your kitchen plumbing in exchange for a rivetting paper on Foucault's economic theories.



mine did but I had to toss in a couple of low fat skim double lattes. 8)


----------



## Delaney1986 (2 Mar 2012)

Kids have no fear anymore! They aren't afraid of their parents, or teachers, or failing because no one has taught them to look at the bigger picture.
Having three nieces, 15, 13, 11 and a nephew, 11 I do a lot of head shaking. They rarely have to earn anything, they just find a way to barter or beg until they get it, this transfers over to schools. Everyone knows if you get a bad grade and go talk to your teacher you can likely get the grade increased. Sometimes it's "iffy" in University because the prof often isn't even the one marking the exams  :.
Oh and by this point I have done both, University and College...after my experience in College (very similar to high school but with people being allowed to actually yell at each other things like "F*ck off!" in the middle of class) I would run screaming back to University had I not already invested so much money....and if I didn't need this course to get into MP...


----------



## George Wallace (2 Mar 2012)

The truly scary thing about this is that if the CF follows along with this development, we will see more courses with 100% Pass rates.  I have seen where CTC has already done this in the past with officer Phase courses.  Not necessarily a good thing.  End result for us is that LIVES are actually ON THE LINE.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2012)

While it may be bad for the country, as a whole, and bad specifically for my province, I can relish in the thought that I will only become more important to my employer, given the quality of people entering today's workforce.

I don't expect to be pressured to 'move on' and create an opening or end up with some out of touch 20 something as my boss. I will actually start to become a valued commodity.

Finally, on that last day, I can probably feel secure that I will be truly missed, if for no other reason than the fact that anyone replacing me is probably an idiotic dweeb, with no work ethic and a three year university diploma that equates to grade 10 my time. ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (2 Mar 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The truly scary thing about this is that if the CF follows along with this development, we will see more courses with 100% Pass rates.  I have seen where CTC has already done this in the past with officer Phase courses.  Not necessarily a good thing.  End result for us is that LIVES are actually ON THE LINE.


That was the case, for a while (close to 100% pass rate).  That's no longer the case.


----------



## Maxadia (2 Mar 2012)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> That was the case, for a while (close to 100% pass rate).  That's no longer the case.



That's good to hear.


----------



## Scott (2 Mar 2012)

My wife recently started teaching at the local University - an entry level engineering course for a feeder program. She just administered her first test and was horrified that only a couple of people passed and some marks were abysmal and so she was contemplating adjusting things (like omitting marks for one question in particular) to adjust the curve - thinking she had been too hard on them. She asked me my thoughts and mine are simple: I don't want them, in their first year, to start seeing adjustments like this and I wouldn't want someone who has had benefit of said adjustments building any bridge I might cross.

She spoke to her department head and he felt the same as I did ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (2 Mar 2012)

To clarify the previous statement I made, we do NOT aim to fail a certain % either.  Our goal actually is 100% pass rate.  This means that we try our best to pass on the skills required.  Sometimes, in spite of all the previous effort put into a person who arrives at the School, and in spite of them passing all previous courses, the course we have them on is just a step too far for them.



			
				Scott said:
			
		

> My wife recently started teaching at the local University - an entry level engineering course for a feeder program. She just administered her first test and was horrified that only a couple of people passed and some marks were abysmal and so she was contemplating adjusting things (like omitting marks for one question in particular) to adjust the curve - thinking she had been too hard on them. She asked me my thoughts and mine are simple: I don't want them, in their first year, to start seeing adjustments like this and *I wouldn't want someone who has had benefit of said adjustments building any bridge I might cross.*
> She spoke to her department head and he felt the same as I did ;D


Very good point.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Mar 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> My wife recently started teaching at the local University - an entry level engineering course for a feeder program. She just administered her first test and was horrified that only a couple of people passed and some marks were abysmal and so she was contemplating adjusting things (like omitting marks for one question in particular) to adjust the curve - thinking she had been too hard on them. She asked me my thoughts and mine are simple: I don't want them, in their first year, to start seeing adjustments like this and I wouldn't want someone who has had benefit of said adjustments building any bridge I might cross.
> 
> She spoke to her department head and he felt the same as I did ;D


Good to see someone in "the system" backing that idea - it's NOT the same everywhere.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2012)

;D


----------



## Maxadia (2 Mar 2012)




----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Mar 2012)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> That was the case, for a while (close to 100% pass rate).  That's no longer the case.



.... unless you happen to be in the Franco platoon  ;D


----------



## RememberanceDay (4 Mar 2012)

As part of today's youth, I must add my two cents.

There's the REALLY, REALLY good, well-rounded, talented kids, who are upstanding, hard-working students who are the ones that teachers and adults love.

THEN, there's the mediocre kids who are average everything. Average marks, get their community hours done with a few extras maybe. Often overlooked, majority of kids.

And then, we've got the bottom of the barrel. The ones who drink and are consistently stoned to another world. Never show up for school, when they do, they're boneheads.

The list above is in reverse order of rarity. The boneheads are all to common. I hesitate, but I will use myself as an example for one.

I'm 15, and I have consistently good/high marks, take academic classes, founder of the debate team at my school, as well as a Clean up the Creek founder/organizer, RCSCadet (Range team, Assit Drill Cap, Seamanship team), Consistent volunteer at the local museum... I'm not really talented, but I've also been blessed with opportunities. I was home schooled by my mother, and then the year that I choose to go back to public school, a sub. teacher invited me to come to the cadet corp. He was the XO. 

An acquaintance of mine is of the lowest category, but working his way up. He never had any of the opportunities that I did. His parents divorced at the age of 3, and grew up with a single mother, and no father in the picture (Died when he was 6). He has no direction for the future, but is cleaning up his act and hiking up his shorts.

My 2 cents.


----------



## ballz (4 Mar 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> I don't want them, in their first year, to start seeing adjustments like this and I wouldn't want someone who has had benefit of said adjustments building any bridge I might cross.
> 
> She spoke to her department head and he felt the same as I did ;D



Unfortunately that's all too rare in most universities, as their #1 driver is money, not education. 

I just listened to a bit of 16:9 on Global, they were talking about how Douglas College in BC has set up schools in China and is awarding Canadian accredited degrees. However, it's been described by some of their own faculty as "academic fraud," where they are failing students and yet somehow that student is getting a degree. One professor told a story of someone in China that couldn't understand as much as "Good Morning" in English, but somehow got the degree. It is literally the exact same diploma you would get in Canada, absolutely no indication you never attended in Canada. 

None of this surprises me after what I've seen at MUN. One of the best profs I've ever had basically gave me a "wink wink nudge nudge" indication that a part of their compensation is somehow tied to the "course evaluation reports" that students have to do for each course at the end of the semester. Talk about the tail wagging the f**king dog!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Mar 2012)

RemembranceDay said:
			
		

> As part of today's youth, I must add my two cents.
> 
> There's the REALLY, REALLY good, well-rounded, talented kids, who are upstanding, hard-working students who are the ones that teachers and adults love.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, at 15 years old, you've only experienced a very minuscule segment of society, including your fellow peers. Accept that model , and you are in for an extremely rude awakening. Please, understand, I am not trying to belittle your interest or contribution.

It's just that the reality says that no matter how idealistic and reformist you'd like to be, karma just doesn't work that way.

Hard work, a good quality education in subject of true import, and being in the right place at the right time, with the proper connections, still does not afford you a job over the bullshitter with a gift of gab and some internet diplomas.

I would be interested to see how your response has changed, if you had the opportunity to revisit it 20 years hence.


----------



## Maxadia (5 Mar 2012)

And as a homeschooled student, you've got the wrong type of student in the majority.  I'd peg it at number 2, not 1 or 3.


----------



## RememberanceDay (5 Mar 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> And as a homeschooled student, you've got the wrong type of student in the majority.  I'd peg it at number 2, not 1 or 3.



Sorry, I have to agree. It was a typo, by the time I realized, too late. I homeschooled for 10-odd years, alongside my two younger autisitic brothers, and I agree with you.


----------



## Pusser (5 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> Unfortunately that's all too rare in most universities, as their #1 driver is money, not education.
> 
> I just listened to a bit of 16:9 on Global, they were talking about how Douglas College in BC has set up schools in China and is awarding Canadian accredited degrees. However, it's been described by some of their own faculty as "academic fraud," where they are failing students and yet somehow that student is getting a degree. One professor told a story of someone in China that couldn't understand as much as "Good Morning" in English, but somehow got the degree. It is literally the exact same diploma you would get in Canada, absolutely no indication you never attended in Canada.
> 
> None of this surprises me after what I've seen at MUN. One of the best profs I've ever had basically gave me a "wink wink nudge nudge" *indication that a part of their compensation is somehow tied to the "course evaluation reports" that students have to do for each course at the end of the semester. Talk about the tail wagging the f**king dog!*



This is one of the reasons that my father got fed up and retired from teaching at a university.  How thick does one have to be to realize that students with good marks will evaluate a professor higher than students with bad marks?  It's the "if I don't know the answer it's because I wasn't taught properly" philosophy (or perhaps that should be "prawf didunt lern me gud").  I always hated those stupid evaluations.  The CF is not immune either as they have reared their ugly head in CF schools as well.  My favourite question is always, "Do you feel this course has prepared you for your duties in the future?"  How the F@#$%! should a student know?  Until he/she actually works in the field, he/she will have no idea how well prepared he/she is.  If anything, these surveys should be conducted a year after the course is over.

Sometimes we find in retrospect that the instructors we hated the most and thought were the worst, were actually the best and we should be grateful that we had the opportunity to learn from them.


----------



## jeffb (5 Mar 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The CF is not immune either as they have reared their ugly head in CF schools as well.  My favourite question is always, "Do you feel this course has prepared you for your duties in the future?"  How the F@#$%! should a student know?  Until he/she actually works in the field, he/she will have no idea how well prepared he/she is.  If anything, these surveys should be conducted a year after the course is over.
> 
> Sometimes we find in retrospect that the instructors we hated the most and thought were the worst, were actually the best and we should be grateful that we had the opportunity to learn from them.



This is 100% accurate. The ECR process always looks for input like this and my standard response is "of course it's relevant, if it wasn't it wouldn't be in the TP right?". It's only some time later that I figure out what was important on a course and I suspect there are some skill sets that I might never use but are important to know. I think that asking students this at any time is not really productive. The questions should be "This course is partly designed to make you proficient in skill x. How well do you think this course accomplished this objective?". There are all kinds of skills that as professionals we need to know but may never use due to the nature of our deployments and career progression.


----------



## Danjanou (5 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> None of this surprises me after what I've seen at MUN. One of the best profs I've ever had basically gave me a "wink wink nudge nudge" indication that a part of their compensation is somehow tied to the "course evaluation reports" that students have to do for each course at the end of the semester. Talk about the tail wagging the f**king dog!



there are times i weep for my alma mater :


----------

