# Spiritual Issues



## Ravanosh (4 Jul 2010)

I have been considering a career in the military for quite a few years now, and I believe I possess the skills and mentality to perform well in a myriad of CF trades.

However, I have difficulty rectifying my deeply-rooted spiritual beliefs with my desire to serve my country and combat evil.

I have considered the path of military chaplain, but at the moment I am too young for the deaconate and I am doubtful that the designation of non-combatant will allow me to serve to the best of my ability.

That is not to say that I desire to end lives, but I recognize that there is such a thing as true evil in the world. Unfortunately most enemies we will face in the middle-east are confused by rhetoric and are not truly evil themselves. It is the "heads of the snake" who represent that fount of evil from which our enemies spring.

It is doubtful that I would ever get the opportunity to strike at such a head, and the thought of killing those who are fighting for a cause they have been convinced is just does not appeal to me. To defend my fellow soldiers and the innocent, I will fire with alacrity and precision, but not out of hand could I bring myself to kill any but those truly deserving of death.

I suppose this is a personal issue, although I was hoping someone with similar beliefs, or a member of the chaplaincy, would perhaps notice this post and be able to provide some measure of guidance.

My thanks to all who serve. Perhaps one day I will join you.


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## Trinity (4 Jul 2010)

PM inbound.


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## Loachman (4 Jul 2010)

A good padre is worth his/her weight in...

I'm not sure what, but he/she certainly is, so do not worry about not being able to serve to the best of your ability.

If that is to where you are guided, then that is where you should be.

The military functions on teamwork, and each plays his/her essential part.

Welcome to the Site. Read a bunch, and perhaps it will help you in your decision.


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## gcclarke (4 Jul 2010)

I guess all I have to say is this. Evil people may exist in the world, but it is very few and far between. The enemy is the enemy because they have been declared to be the enemy, not because they are evil. This goes for the Taliban currently, and it went for the average German soldier during WWII. Some of them may be misguided by their government / religious leaders, some of them may be doing what they do out of a sense of loyalty, etc, but very very few of them are doing what they do because they are inherently bad people. 

And of course, things aren't always nearly as white and black as the two examples as I've listed. For example, the little dust-up that occurred in 1982 between the UK and Argentina. Who was the bad guy there? Neither.

So yeah, I'm unsure that you'll ever really find someone "truly deserving of death", and especially I rather doubt that your definitions of who is deserving will *always* be the same as that determined by your superior commanders. 

So, should this be an accurate assessment, I would highly recommend that you avoid joining the Canadian Armed Forces in any capacity other than perhaps the health services branch or the chaplaincy.


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## Loachman (4 Jul 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I would highly recommend that you avoid joining the Canadian Armed Forces in any capacity other than perhaps the health services branch or the chaplaincy.



I shall disagree with this, and quite thoroughly.

There is nothing in his post inconsistent with serving in any capacity.

Few of us have any desire to kill many of the people that we may have to kill, but we recognize the necessity when the time comes and most are able to do so.

I'd rather have somebody who is able to put some intelligent thought to it - at the appropriate time, like now - than someone who does it with insufficient thought and takes a little too much pleasure in it.

I only have a couple of assists, but that's enough to give me something to think about and quite often. I'd rather not have had to do that, but they made their choices, it felt good, and I have no regrets. It saved a ramp ceremony or two at the minimum.


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## armychick2009 (4 Jul 2010)

We all have our strengths and skills which can be brought to the forces in one way or another, I believe. 

I've spoke with chaplains in the army a few times about this and my suggestion is maybe see if you can talk with one. I had a chance to sit with several a few times in Borden as that is where the chaplaincy school is and two other times in cities my ex-husband was posted to and I was there for.  The one chaplain explained his enrollment story to me and it sounds incredibly familiar so know you're not alone in this as I believe he had the exact same issue with regards to his designation.  It did take him a while to get to the point where he could perform the duties he wanted to but he believed the timing worked out in the end because the years he had to wait, he had a chance to get experience through his life events that has served him well numerous times over, within the forces. 

For myself, I also had a similar 'spiritual issue' which took about a year to fully work through. I"m comfortable now with the decisions I've made... 

Take care!


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## sky777 (4 Jul 2010)

I just want to add my 5 cents.
I am religion person too.I think  that being military is privilege that God and country can give you.
As being Christian I can see a lot of example from the Bible how God gave people opportunity to protect their land.
The first example of military service is found in the Old Testament (Genesis 14), when Abraham's nephew Lot was kidnapped by Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, and his allies. Abraham rallied to Lot's aid by gathering 318 trained men of his household and defeating the Elamites. Here we see armed forces engaged in a noble task—rescuing and protecting the innocent.
In the New Testament, Jesus marveled when a Roman centurion (an officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5; 27:54; Mark 15:39-45; Luke 7:2; 23:47; Acts 10:1; 21:32; 28:16).
The Bible also uses military terms to describe being strong in the Lord by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20), including the tools of the soldier—helmet, shield, and sword.
The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our sovereign God. Those who honorably serve in the military deserve our respect and gratitude.


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## mariomike (4 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> However, I have difficulty rectifying my deeply-rooted spiritual beliefs with my desire to serve my country and combat evil.



You may find the story of this man inspirational: 
http://www.sgtyorkdiscovery.com/The_York_Story.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyJTfuau3hw&feature=related


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## Ravanosh (4 Jul 2010)

Thank you for that link Mariomike, the story of Sgt. York strengthens my belief that war (if fought for the right reasons) can serve as the ultimate test of moral character.

All of the responses have been helpful, and I have even been fortunate enough to receive a PM from a Chaplain. This forum is an exceptional resource, a testament to the best Canada has to offer.

I admit that I find it discouraging (and to some extent, hypocritical) that we must maintain a separation of church and state. Our anthem itself would be considered politically incorrect if we adhered to that separation, and many of the most important matters of man include a reference to a higher power (i.e. Under God).

My point is that selective separation is nonsensical, and only serves to highlight the fact that we cannot remove the spiritual from the temporal without creating a blatant void.

In response to gcclarke, I respect your opinion and share your understanding that very few soldiers are inherently evil, no matter who they are fighting for. However, I do not believe that there is a lack of evil in this world, nor people who embody it.

Thank you all for your assistance. It is reassuring to know that my concerns are shared by many.


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## vonGarvin (4 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I admit that I find it discouraging (and to some extent, hypocritical) that we must maintain a separation of church and state.


Some seem to forget that Church and State were separated in order to protect The Church* from the state's influences, not the other way around.  Having a strong base of faith within any country is good, IMHO, to provide a moral voice or reminder from time to time to the State.  Now, I'm not saying that we must be Christian or Islamic or Bhuddist as a state, but having a wide variety of faiths strengthens, not weakens, the State.  Again, this is just my opinion on things.


It's sort of like having the NDP in Parliament.  Never to be trusted to run the show, but they serve a purpose to "remind" the big guys of important and perhaps otherwise forgotten issues from time to time.



*This applies to all faiths, not any single "church" or religion as such.


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## sky777 (4 Jul 2010)

Any case faith is private thing.
If you think, according your religion view, service for CF is OK then feel free to join.But you must be ready to protect yourself,your colleagues,  so-workers ,your family. It means you can kill enemies. 
If it is against what you believe then joining to CF is not good idea.
I am Christian, but I think my faith it is my private thing.I try to follow what I believe. Service with Canadian Forces can be blessing from God and privilege from Canadian Government.

*NIV
Romans 14:22
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.* 

*NLT
Romans 14:22
You may believe there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don’t feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right.*


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## Ravanosh (4 Jul 2010)

You raise an interesting point Technoviking, the separation of Church and State was originally intended to protect religion and spirituality from the influence of the State. Nowadays it seems as though numberless temporal agencies continue to take advantage of this, somehow operating outside or removed of the moral grounding that "Church" repersents. 

In the past, leaders had to circumvent the religious priniciples of the day in order to operate in such a way. Now, to a large extent, that work is done for them.

You also raise a good point about the variety of faiths, and the need to create an inclusive, rather than exclusive religious environment. I am hopeful that the military will take take that bold first step, and seek to have Chaplains ordained by the ministries of all three Abrahamic religions. Not only does it make sense as a rational(and logistical) step forward, but it also closes gaps that should not exist between beliefs that share a common ancestor. 

While I find that movements, such as Bahá'í, have made great inroads in the endeavour to merge various religions into a cohesive spiritual whole, they have in most cases taken an all-encompassing approach that is technically unfeasable.

However, combining the teachings (if not the traditions) of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam seems a perfectly reasonable progression, and I cannot conceive of a better place to first employ such a methodology than in the military Chaplaincy.

And to reply to you sky, I understand what is required of a soldier, but I have difficulty ignoring my principles upon request or demand. Having non-lethal options allays this concern, so perhaps I may be better suited to service in the police force. 

I would be very interested in helping to develop new military technologies for non-lethal target neutralization, or similar advances. My experience in biochemistry and pharmacology may be applicable to such a field. Can anyone advise on a career in military science?


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## George Wallace (4 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> ........ I am hopeful that the military will take take that bold first step, and seek to have Chaplains ordained by the ministries of all three Abrahamic religions. Not only does it make sense as a rational(and logistical) step forward, but it also closes gaps that should not exist between beliefs that share a common ancestor.




Too late.  It has already been done.





			
				Ravanosh said:
			
		

> While I find that movements, such as Bahá'í, have made great inroads in the endeavour to merge various religions into a cohesive spiritual whole, they have in most cases taken an all-encompassing approach that is technically unfeasable.
> 
> However, combining the teachings (if not the traditions) of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam seems a perfectly reasonable progression, and I cannot conceive of a better place to first employ such a methodology than in the military Chaplaincy.
> 
> ...



Hate to be a little off, but this sounds like you may be more of someone who utilizes altered states of mind to experience the metaphysical directly, than a person prepared to face reality and join the CF.


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## Michael OLeary (4 Jul 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Too late.  It has already been done.



George, I would interpret that comment to mean having individual Chaplains who are recognized (i.e., ordained, or authorized to formally execute the roles and tasks appropriate to each religion) by all three major religions, not simply having Chaplains from each.




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Hate to be a little off, but this sounds like you may be more of someone who utilizes altered states of mind to experience the metaphysical directly, than a person prepared to face reality and join the CF.



Try to be more open minded George, just because someone mentions pharmacology doesn't require leaping to assumptions that they are likely a drug user.


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## aesop081 (4 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Can anyone advise on a career in military science?



See these guys......

http://www.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/


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## George Wallace (4 Jul 2010)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> George, I would interpret that comment to mean having individual Chaplains who are recognized (i.e., ordained, or authorized to formally execute the roles and tasks appropriate to each religion) by all three major religions, not simply having Chaplains from each.



We already do.  Not in great numbers, and for this very reason the Chaplaincy Corps changed their Cap Badge to be more inclusive.  Although they do not have "Churches/Synagogues/Mosques/Temples" of their own on Bases, they have either been accommodated by the two Churches on the Base or the Base with a place to conduct worship.


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## vonGarvin (4 Jul 2010)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> George, I would interpret that comment to mean having individual Chaplains who are recognized (i.e., ordained, or authorized to formally execute the roles and tasks appropriate to each religion) by all three major religions, not simply having Chaplains from each.


I'm not sure if I know what you mean.  Do you mean that the CF Chaplains (Imams, Rabbis, Priests, Ministers, etc) that are recognised by their faiths as being military chaplains?  Or having a chaplain who is recognised from Moslems, Jews and Christians who can conduct the services of all three?  EG: "Father David/Rabbi David/Imam Daoud"?  

I can't speak for Islam or Judaism, but for Catholics, they are pretty strict on who can and cannot perform sacraments.  But for leading prayers according to Christian Faith can pretty well be anyone.  EG: pretty well anyone can walk in and conduct a "liturgy of the word", but beyond that, the rest of mass has to be done by a priest.  Same with anointing of the sick (aka "last rites"), etc.


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## Antoine (5 Jul 2010)

> Quote from: Ravanosh on Today at 15:33:54
> Can anyone advise on a career in military science?



Use the keyword "Bioscience Officer" in the search function of the present forum.

Also, go check out the following web page:

www.forces.ca/html/bioscienceofficer_reg_en.aspx



> Bioscience Officer, OVERVIEW: Their primary duty is to mitigate health threats to CF members and improve their operational performance.......



edit to add:

You might find of interest the following:

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/91633.0.html


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## aesop081 (5 Jul 2010)

Antoine said:
			
		

> Use the keyword "Bioscience Officer" in the search function of the present forum.



The OP was interested in developing non-lethal weapons. I hardly think Bioscience officer is going to get him there. Working as a scientist for DRDC would be a much broader option.


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## Pusser (5 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I admit that I find it discouraging (and to some extent, hypocritical) that we must maintain a separation of church and state. Our anthem itself would be considered politically incorrect if we adhered to that separation, and many of the most important matters of man include a reference to a higher power (i.e. Under God).



We need to be careful in understanding this.  Although the separation of church and state is often discussed in the Canadian context, people often confuse it with the American example.  Although the American founding fathers (which we also often forget are actually traitors in the Canadian context) very much promoted the separation of church and state, the same cannot be said of the framers and founders of Canada.  Religion (in fact, Christian religion) has always been a part of the official structure.  Keep in mind that the Canadian Constitution specifically recognizes the supremacy of God.  We have separate school boards in Ontario and religious observances make up part of the official processes in Parliament and the provincial legislatures.  When was the last time we saw anyone taking anyone to court for some overt religious symbol in Canada?  Do we separate church and state in Canada?  To certain extent, yes, but not anywhere close to the extent that our neighbours to the south do.


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## Pusser (5 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I would be very interested in helping to develop new military technologies for non-lethal target neutralization, or similar advances. My experience in biochemistry and pharmacology may be applicable to such a field. Can anyone advise on a career in military science?



Keep in mind that the development of chemical warfare during WWI was originally intended to introduce a more humane method to the conduct of war.  Beware the law of unintended consequences!  Not only was it not more humane, but then it steamrolled and got even worse.  And in my opinion, biological weapons are even worse than chemical ones.


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## Loachman (5 Jul 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that the Canadian Constitution specifically recognizes the supremacy of God.



Also keep in mind that many Canadian citizens do not.

That was added in 1982. Not everybody was happy about it.

It places an importance of one religious group over several others, whether there is any real effect or not.

One reason for the separation of church and state is to prevent adherents of an "official" religion from using state mechanisms to beat up on adherents of other religions.

People are entitled to practice the faiths of their choice. A constitution is a legal document, not a religious one, and should not make any mention of any specific religion.

The same is true of a national anthem. It is not a hymn. It should be about Country and People, not religion.


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## Ravanosh (5 Jul 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> People are entitled to practice the faiths of their choice. A constitution is a legal document, not a religious one, and should not make any mention of any specific religion.
> 
> The same is true of a national anthem. It is not a hymn. It should be about Country and People, not religion.



Good points Loachman. There is a definite necessity for creating an atmosphere that emphasises spirituality and morality over the confines of any single religious doctrine. 

However, I would like to believe that the majority of us are aware that there is something greater than Country and People, and whatever one chooses to call It (God, Yahweh, Allah, Brahman, Elohim, Achamán, Ahura Mazdā etc. etc.) we cannot ignore or exclude It from our day to day lives.

Buddhism is interesting in that it places the emphasis on the divinity of the individual experience, hence why it is not compatible with a monotheistic viewpoint. Hindusim can be integrated to some extent as the religion recognizes an overarching oneness represented by the concept of Brahman.

However, whether a religion's teachings are compatible with our own beliefs should not be cause for concern or discrimination. We must learn to accept that there are many ways to conceive of the concept that is "God", even for those who choose to understand Him through the study of the physical world. 

A man who puts his faith in science rather than the divine is no atheist, for his field involves the most direct study of God's creation.


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## aesop081 (5 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> we cannot ignore or exclude It from our day to day lives.



I beg to differ........


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## vonGarvin (5 Jul 2010)

> I would like to believe that the majority of us are aware that there is something greater than Country and People


I would offer to rephrase that as this:
I would like to believe that the majority of us believe  that there is something  greater than Country and People.
Just changed "aware" to "believe" and emphasis on the "something".  For me, it's a pretty standard, whitebread Roman Catholic view of things.  But, irrespective of any person's belief, the emphasis, I believe, should be on inclusivity, not exclusivity.  I think it's important.  I have *this* view, that person has *that* view, but together, I think it's important to focus on the similarities, and be aware of the differences, if that means much...


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## Jarnhamar (5 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> A man who puts his faith in science rather than the divine is no atheist, for his field involves the most direct study of God's creation.


 

So.....It's impossible not top believe in God because God DID make everything so even if you say you don't believe- you're breathing His air and walking on His land and speaking His words so if there was no God then you woudn't exist. The fact we are here means there is a God, QED.



> we cannot ignore or exclude It from our day to day lives.


One of the coolest thing about Padres is that they never seem to tell people what or how to think.


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## vonGarvin (5 Jul 2010)

> man who puts his faith in science rather than the divine is not necessarily an  atheist, for his field involves the most direct study of God's creation.



This is how I see it, and how a science teacher put it to us in school.  And that documentary Religulous (sp?) had a priest put it well, or so I thought.  "The Bible is not a book of science. It is many things.  A history book, early man's explanation of the world, and a code of conduct"

Anyway, back on topic, of sorts.


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## Ravanosh (5 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> However, I would like to believe that the majority of us are aware that there is something greater than Country and People, and whatever one chooses to call It, we cannot ignore or exclude It from our day to day lives.



To finish this thought, we cannot ignore or exclude the divine sanctity of existence without the consequence of creating a void, as I had mentioned previously. I did not mean that it is impossible to do so, but human nature inherently requires a connection to the spiritual in some form or another. This need comes to the forefront when death is near, whether it be our own death or that of another close to us.

What I am saying is that we may at times choose to ignore the divinity of life, and can fight to keep religion and spirituality out of our daily lives. But we are fighting against what we must all come to accept at some point, even if right now you believe in nothing more than a fleeting mortality brought about by miraculous circumstances, one still cannot deny the miracle of that very mortality.


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## Sapplicant (5 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I would be very interested in helping to develop new military technologies for non-lethal target neutralization, or similar advances. My experience in biochemistry and pharmacology may be applicable to such a field. Can anyone advise on a career in military science?



I'm gonna go out on a VERY shakey limb here and drop my  :2c:


Personally, I would think that the development of such technology would fall (mostly) into the hands of the private sector. That being said, perhaps military experience could benefit you. A well chosen trade, be it combat arms or otherwise, could give you valuable real world experience in the very field you're trying to modify. What better way to know what has to be accomplished by these weapons than to actually be in the setting. 



On the topic of faith, I respect and admire yours, and everybody elses, for that matter. A lot can be taken from religion on how to be a good person, and have a positive influence on the world around you (thus causing the world to have a positive influence on you). I earnestly believe that what we, as a country of the Commonwealth, stand for, is good in every sense of the word. I believe that our vision of how the world should be is what best satisfies our Higher Power. 


Matthew 5:9 -> Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.


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## aesop081 (5 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> To finish this thought, we cannot ignore or exclude the divine sanctity of existence without the consequence of creating a void,



Sure we can. What you are saying is complete rubbish but thats fine, i respect that.





> but human nature inherently requires a connection to the spiritual in some form or another. This need comes to the forefront when death is near, whether it be our own death or that of another close to us.



Absolutely not.



> But we are fighting against what we must all come to accept at some point



Could not disagree with you more.

I've been all over the world, seen alot of things. If there was a "god", he/she wouldnt allow it to happen. I have been to the Vatican........thats enough to convince anyone that religion is ****.


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## George Wallace (5 Jul 2010)

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> I earnestly believe that what we, as a country of the Commonwealth, stand for, is good in every sense of the word. I believe that our vision of how the world should be is what best satisfies our Higher Power.



I have seen our country and the Commonwealth become PC and too tolerant or perhaps "weak kneed" and lose this vision.  I have seen intolerant beliefs become acceptable both here and abroad in countries who have welcomed all with open arms and not demanded of them to leave their "baggage" behind.  So many have come to our country (and other Western nations) to enjoy our freedoms and at the same time bring intolerance with them.  Intolerance to our society.  Intolerance to our Religions.  Intolerance to our Laws.  I am watching my country and way of life selfdestruct.  It may already be too late, but if our nation. and/or that of other Western nations, is what you aspire to, then do not come and try to change it into another version of what you are escaping from or leaving.

I have no problems with someone being Religious or Spiritual.  I do have a problem with someone trying to force their Religion or beliefs on me or my society.  I am tired of Born Again Christians, Jehovah's Witness, and any other Religion that wants to send "missionaries" and literature to my home.  They are another form of SPAM.  To me "Spirituality" is a private thing.

/rant


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## Sapplicant (5 Jul 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have seen our country and the Commonwealth become PC and too tolerant or perhaps "weak kneed" and lose this vision.  I have seen intolerant beliefs become acceptable both here and abroad in countries who have welcomed all with open arms and not demanded of them to leave their "baggage" behind.  So many have come to our country (and other Western nations) to enjoy our freedoms and at the same time bring intolerance with them.  Intolerance to our society.  Intolerance to our Religions.  Intolerance to our Laws.  I am watching my country and way of life selfdestruct.  It may already be too late, but if our nation. and/or that of other Western nations, is what you aspire to, then do not come and try to change it into another version of what you are escaping from or leaving.
> 
> I have no problems with someone being Religious or Spiritual.  I do have a problem with someone trying to force their Religion or beliefs on me or my society.  I am tired of Born Again Christians, Jehovah's Witness, and any other Religion that wants to send "missionaries" and literature to my home.  They are another form of SPAM.  To me "Spirituality" is a private thing.
> 
> /rant






Agree whole-heartedly on the PC/Tolerance. Those 2 things, much like any other vice we may enjoy (tobacco, alcohol, etc...) Must be very much regulated and used in moderation.

As for my posting about our "satisfying a higher power", I was merely trying to ease the OP's conscience, and reassure him that what we fight for is good. I'm by no means a religious fanatic.


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## vonGarvin (5 Jul 2010)

> To finish this thought, we cannot ignore or exclude the divine sanctity of existence without the consequence of creating a void,


I personally agree with this.  I fully understand how CDN Aviator can see the shit that is in this world, and come to the conclusion that it is a Godless world.  I find that when mankind abandons "god*" (or spirituality), or when mankind twists the idea of "god" to fight one's one definition, ambitions or desires, then that is what the RC Church would call a "mortal sin", because it puts a rift between man and "god".  I disagree that "god" would stop us, when it is us, I believe, that allows it to happen.  

But, when I see evil in this world, which I'm sure many of us have, it paradoxically confirms to me the existence of absolute good, which I believe is a sign of God**.  You see, for evil is the opposite of good, and one cannot exist without the other.  Just as there cannot be an "up"without a "down", or a "left" without a "right", so too there cannot be "good" without "evil".



*By "god" I don't exclusively mean the Abrahamic idea of God, but "that which surrounds us all", be it mankind, the great mother, Gaia, Zeus, or whatever.

**By "God" I mean my own personal belief of "god".  (see above)


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## KrazyHamburglar (5 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Sure we can. What you are saying is complete rubbish but thats fine, i respect that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was reading through this tread and was trying to find a way to express my opinion without being too rude... your post can describe magnificently what I meant to say, and for that, I tip my hat to you sir...

As for the other ones with any feeling of deity... I cannot disagree more with you but I will defend to the death to preserve your right to your opinion


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## Loachman (5 Jul 2010)

I respect others' faiths and beliefs, even if I do not share them or fully understand them. I accept that they are real for them, even if they are not for me. Their ability to practice them openly and safely must be protected.

I find religions interesting and enlightening, even if I do not believe. There is much to learn from their teachings and their followers. I am currently doing a little light research into Catholicism. I began that for a very specific reason, but the more that I learn (little, still), the more interested I become. As an Englishman by birth, I started from a slightly prejudiced position, induced by history, but that no longer applies.

I still do not, however, believe that there is a God, and I have been that way since childhood. I cannot prove that I am right, nor do I have any reason to make such an attempt. His existence is not impossible, although it may not be quite in the form that His followers believe. I see plenty of indications that He could exist, but plenty of indications to the contrary as well. I have yet to see hard evidence, and I am an evidence-based person.

I do not feel any void or lack in my life as a result of this absence of belief in a Deity. Lack of an afterlife does not bother me, nor will it. I cannot suddenly believe what I do not believe, even in the face of death (and I have been in that position more than once). I cannot turn belief on at will any more than you can turn it off. Absence of religion does not prevent me from being as moral as the next fellow. I am completely content with all of this.

Regardless, and back to the original topic, I am reasonably sure that you can find a place for yourself within the CF, and make a valuable and valued contribution, should you so choose. That is for you to decide, though, based upon your interests and your personal interpretation of your faith. That may be as a Padre, or it may be as something else.

Service as a Padre is at least as important as service in any other occupation, combat or support. Your contribution to the overall effort would be no less valuable than somebody out in a LAV, a Leopard, a Frigate, a Chinook, or, yes, even a lowly CF18.


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## vonGarvin (5 Jul 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Service as a Padre is at least as important as service in any other occupation, combat or support. Your contribution to the overall effort would be no less valuable than somebody out in a LAV, a Leopard, a Frigate, a Chinook, or, yes, even a lowly CF18.


I couldn't agree more; and to emphasise, chaplains do more than provide religious services.  Much like my analogy of religion in society, they do more than just give a moral voice in the corner.  They provide social services, they provide an ear, and sometimes a much needed laugh.  

One padre before we deployed talked about spirituality.  He cautioned that it was NOT about God, religion, or anything, but the idea of humanity being that "bigger thing".  He couldn't care less if we were religious or not.  He just wanted us to remember that we weren't alone, "No man is an Island" and all that.  That's how he put his definition of "spirituality".


----------



## Loachman (5 Jul 2010)

One of the other important things that a Padre does is just be where troops are. Not having to expose oneself to the same dangers but doing it anyway sets an unbeatable example.


----------



## Ravanosh (6 Jul 2010)

I may have expressed my opinions in the wrong manner. It was never my intent to espouse the superiority of any one religion, hence my emphasis on spirituality. I believe that philosophical certainty is a delusion, and it can be a dangerous one at that.

Also I was not attempting to prove the existence of God, or to force my beliefs on others. However, that my faith in a higher power is "rubbish" is frankly offensive. If the absence of spirituality does not leave a void in the hearts of men, then I see little purpose in the Chaplaincy.

Yes there are questions, particularly how any manner of God would allow evil to exist. We all make choices, and it is through the exercise of our free will that both good and evil come into the world.

If you would prefer a qualified scientific perspective, you may find the works of Dr. Thomas Campbell of interest. He is a well respected NASA physicist who is heavily involved in the fields of remote-viewing and metaphysics. There is an 18-part video series available on Youtube that is an excellent introduction for open-minded skeptics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxECb7zcQhQ  
(you can skip to part 2 without missing a whole lot)

If you do study his work, you will begin to understand what I meant by science being a practical extension of spiritual understanding.


----------



## sky777 (6 Jul 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> To me "Spirituality" is a private thing.


+1000000000000000


----------



## aesop081 (6 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> However, that my faith in a higher power is "rubbish" is frankly offensive.



What you said was :



> To finish this thought, we cannot ignore or exclude the divine sanctity of existence without the consequence of creating a void,



I did not intend to offend you, which is why i said that i respect that you have certain beleifs. That being said, i can in fact ignore "the divine sanctity......." without creating a void. I live like that every day.......no void.





> If the absence of spirituality does not leave a void in the hearts of men, then I see little purpose in the Chaplaincy.



The chaplaincy serves a purpose for those who have similar beleifs to yours. for everyone else, they are a freindly ear when times are tough without bringing religion and god into the conversation. They know how to do that.......



> Yes there are questions, particularly how any manner of God would allow evil to exist. We all make choices, and it is through the exercise of our free will that both good and evil come into the world.



In the places i have been, "free will" is not some abstract concept......."free will" has killed thouhsands, Destroyed lives..........

Take a tour around the world and get back to me.


----------



## mathabos (6 Jul 2010)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I respect others' faiths and beliefs, even if I do not share them or fully understand them. I accept that they are real for them, even if they are not for me. Their ability to practice them openly and safely must be protected.
> 
> I find religions interesting and enlightening, even if I do not believe. There is much to learn from their teachings and their followers. I am currently doing a little light research into Catholicism. I began that for a very specific reason, but the more that I learn (little, still), the more interested I become. As an Englishman by birth, I started from a slightly prejudiced position, induced by history, but that no longer applies.
> 
> ...



I agree with your post. I have felt the same way as you from a young age. 
I have many friends with similar views. 
However, I will always respect other peoples points of view. 

As posted earlier also, we are free to think for ourselves. I would like it if people who believe in God could simply leave me alone. I too have the missionaries preach to me. It could be at work or with friends. I fully respect them and do not try to convince them they are wrong. 
Wish they could simply do the same. Just my  :2c:


----------



## Antoine (6 Jul 2010)

> The OP was interested in developing non-lethal weapons. I hardly think Bioscience officer is going to get him there. Working as a scientist for DRDC would be a much broader option.



Oops, I've read his post a bit too fast. I agree with you, DRDC is a good bet. 

I know people from other federal departments who worked with DRDC and CF on challenging scientific projects and of great help for the CF. I'll be happy to work there, may be one day.

Cheers,


----------



## Ravanosh (6 Jul 2010)

I think I can sum up my beliefs with a simple quote: 

"It takes a great deal more faith to believe in an accidental universe than to believe in an intelligent creator" - Dr. Walter L. Bradley

In my humble opinion, those who are convinced to the contrary have yet to conduct the necessary research to form a conclusion either way. If you would prefer a purely physical approach (as opposed to Dr. Campbell's metaphysical theories) I highly recommend the work of Dr. Bradley. 



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> In the places i have been, "free will" is not some abstract concept......."free will" has killed thouhsands, Destroyed lives..........
> 
> Take a tour around the world and get back to me.



I never meant free will in an abstract sense, and I know full well the evils in this world. I have seen the work of cartels like the Los Zeta's, with their non-chalant attitude towards horrendous acts of torture and slaughter, and I have seen the brainwashing and enslavement of the people under Kim Jong Il's regime, to name a few examples. No one is free of the influence of evil, even those fighting for "good" (i.e. Guantánamo DC).

These all result from choices. There is just as much good in this world brought about by the acts of man, but evil gets all the press.

I recommend studying the work of the scientists I referenced, before forming an opinion.


----------



## Loachman (6 Jul 2010)

"It takes a great deal more faith to believe in an an intelligent creator than to believe in accidental universe" - Non-Dr Loachman.

It takes me no faith at all to believe in an accidental universe, in fact.

The more that we know about the universe, the less I believe in the probabability that a single being could create such a vast and complex thing. Then there is the "who/what created the Creator" issue. This is all beyond my comprehension, so I do not waste time considering it. I simply except that the universe exists, and am happy for that. I like a lot of what is in it.

This is not due to a lack of research. As nobody has actually been able to prove or disprove the existence of God, such research is not even possible. One can only read arguments for each position, and draw conclusions from those arguments in the complete lack of real evidence for either argument.

I hope that you are right, and that I am wrong. It would be better for all of us were it that way (well, I suppose, except for those consigned to the "Other Place") but for me, simply wanting something does not make it so.

There is only one way to know if God and an afterlife exist, if you are right. If I am right, none of us will ever know. I am in no rush to know or not know either way.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I think I can sum up my beliefs with a simple quote:
> 
> "It takes a great deal more faith to believe in an accidental universe than to believe in an intelligent creator" - Dr. Walter L. Bradley
> 
> In my humble opinion, those who are convinced to the contrary have yet to conduct the necessary research to form a conclusion either way. If you would prefer a purely physical approach (as opposed to Dr. Campbell's metaphysical theories) I highly recommend the work of Dr. Bradley.



So you find someones suggestion that your faith in a higher power is rubbush, offensive.
Yet you're turning around and suggesting that anyone who doesn't believe in a higher power  'just hasn't researched enough'. So basically THEIR belief is rubbish.   :  
Sounds like preaching.


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## 57Chevy (6 Jul 2010)

Actually it doesn't take too much research at all.
Just a little bit of reading from the Holy Bible.
You will certainly start to ask yourself, How it could possibly be, that whoever put 
it all together was able to predict exactly what is happening all over the world.
And then going on to say that it will be getting worse......of which it is.
Obviously, if you have never read it, then you are simply misled into non-belief.
I don't want to preach, but I believe every word that is written in the Holy Bible
was not written in vain.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> In my humble opinion, those who are convinced to the contrary have yet to conduct the necessary research to form a conclusion either way.



I was raised a good Quebec Catholic, so my research was pretty much belt-fed as a kid, thanks. I'm 34 years old, i didnt arrive at my conclusions lightly.



> Study the work of the scientists I referenced, and get back to me.



Was already familiar, thank you. 



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> Actually it doesn't take too much research at all.
> Just a little bit of reading from the Holy Bible.
> You will certainly start to ask yourself,



Read it......many times. Great work of fiction, written in such a way that it can be interpreted to fit almost any theory.

There are over 50 versions of the bible......pick the one that fits your beleifs.


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## Redeye (6 Jul 2010)

Please - vague prophesies and confirmation bias mean basically nothing.  It's like when people make a big deal the the New Testament "confirms" prophesy in the Old Testament.  When you're writing a story, it's not hard to write it to fit the source docs.

A lot of people don't seem to realize (and mainly, because they aren't taught this, I surely wasn't in Catholic School) that the NT was written by multiple unknown authors, a long time after the events.  I was led to believe years ago that it was direct, known accounts by the apostles themselves.  It wasn't.  Good scholarship suggests that Mark was written first, and the other three synopics simply plagarized Mark, using a lot of artistic license.  Even at that, and the editing at Nicaea, they still couldn't get the stories to quite line up, but this too is generally overlooked!

As for the OP's assertion that we "need" to fill some "void", I'll echo Cdn_Aviator and say that's rubbish.  We don't.  Plenty of people live long and happy lives without any religious bent - without and sort of spiritual inclination whatsoever.  Some people need that in their lives, and that's fine - but it should be a private matter ultimately.  I used to be a belligerent about the matter (and when it comes to some religious folks I have no choice but to be!), but I'm since realized that ultimately, so long as their religion doesn't affect me, then live and let live.

The role of Chaplains is, as I understand it, to attend to the welfare of the Forces - spiritual welfare and otherwise.  Even though I'm an incorrigible atheist, I have plenty of time for Padres, I find many of them are interesting to talk to for their insight, and their work is still important and relevant to the Forces.  The great thing about the ones I've crossed paths with is that none of them have the slightest interest in any sort of "evangelism", a marked difference it seems from the USA (my uncle - or rather, my wife's uncle is a US Army Padre, and a fervent evangelical type, one of the most obnoxious I've ever had the displeasure of meeting).  I don't know - and will not generalize - that all of them are like that - but there are plenty of stories of things like Padres from the USA bringing Bibles in Arabic to Iraq (which IIRC were all burned when discovered).  Never can I say I've heard such a thing of the CF.

"A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism." - Donald Morgan



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> Actually it doesn't take too much research at all.
> Just a little bit of reading from the Holy Bible.
> You will certainly start to ask yourself, How it could possibly be, that whoever put
> it all together was able to predict exactly what is happening all over the world.
> ...


----------



## George Wallace (6 Jul 2010)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Please - vague prophesies and confirmation bias mean basically nothing.  It's like when people make a big deal the the New Testament "confirms" prophesy in the Old Testament.  When you're writing a story, it's not hard to write it to fit the source docs.



Following that line of thought, how much faith do you have in this man's prophesies?  Nostradamus 

What were your opinions of the predictions being made by the Incas or Aztecs about the world ending in 2012?

There are many prophesies out there.  Not all are religious in nature.


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## aesop081 (6 Jul 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Following that line of thought, how much faith do you have in this man's prophesies?  Nostradamus



LMFAO.......again, can be interpreted almost any way to suit any event.



> What were your opinions of the predictions being made by the Incas or Aztecs about the world ending in 2012?



They didnt predict the world would end in 2012. Their calendar ends in 2012. Could it be that they are all dead and didnt get around to making more ?


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## George Wallace (6 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They didnt predict the world would end in 2012. Their calendar ends in 2012. Could it be that they are all dead and didnt get around to making more ?



I just chalked it up to the guy making it got tired of adding to it, figuring that a couple thousand years would be good enough for his masters.


----------



## Redeye (6 Jul 2010)

Nostradamus' quatrains are so tremendously vague that it's again a matter of confirmation bias to prove anything in them.  Want to see something really warped, check out this guy, Edward McKinney http://www.twoprophets.org and his "interpretations" of Nostradamus.  This guy is seriously deluded.

As for the Mayans, I understand 2012 is the end of some kind of astrological cycle in their calendar.  Or something like that.  Let's just say I'm not particularly concerned about his, or any other end of the world claims.  They exist in all primative mythologies, I think.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Following that line of thought, how much faith do you have in this man's prophesies?  Nostradamus
> 
> What were your opinions of the predictions being made by the Incas or Aztecs about the world ending in 2012?
> 
> There are many prophesies out there.  Not all are religious in nature.


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Jul 2010)

Redeye said:
			
		

> As for the Mayans, I understand 2012 is the end of some kind of astrological cycle in their calendar.


I think the analogy would be for someone to look at one of our calendars and say "There are no days past 31 December.  The world ends!"


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## KrazyHamburglar (6 Jul 2010)

Redeye said:
			
		

> The role of Chaplains is, as I understand it, to attend to the welfare of the Forces - spiritual welfare and otherwise.  Even though I'm an incorrigible atheist, I have plenty of time for Padres, I find many of them are interesting to talk to for their insight, and their work is still important and relevant to the Forces.  The great thing about the ones I've crossed paths with is that none of them have the slightest interest in any sort of "evangelism", a marked difference it seems from the USA



To expand on that, I'd like to say that what make the success of most Padre is that they never talk about religion, well almost never... 
unless you directly engage them on religious subjects, they will never bring it up. Padres are a lot more social workers than priests. Whatever your
vision of spirituality they will help you at the best of their knowledge, the only difference with a social worker is that, for the catholics at least, will
celebrate weddings and funerals... and even during official prayers, during parades for exemple, they always reference "God" is the most general sense
and never fall into the specific of their denomination... 

Padres I've met are some of the most wonderfull people in the Forces but if one of them would have brought up anything even remotely religious,
I would have turned my back and walk away...

For Ravanosh, if you join, I sure hope you don't fall into some sort of evangelism state that Redeye described...
  :endnigh: :fifty:


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## SARgirl (6 Jul 2010)

As I read through this thread, a quote from, The Song of Bernadette, comes to mind, which is as follows: 
"For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation is possible."

Faith is a, lead a horse to water, type of thing: everyone has free will.  They can chose to drink the water of faith and that which comes with believing in God or not. 

CDN Aviator, I hope and pray that your once upon a time childhood faith returns to you some day, before your last breath and that the faith returns to all those who have fallen in this regard and for those who have never found it, to find it.


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## aesop081 (6 Jul 2010)

SARgirl said:
			
		

> CDN Aviator, I hope and pray that your once upon a time childhood faith returns to you some day,



Save you prayer time for someone else, please. I made a concious decision a long time ago based on everything that has opened my eyes over the years.

My convictions are just as strong as yours, stop hoping that i will change and leave me alone. I put my faith in my family, freinds and the relationships i have made.


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## TangoTwoBravo (6 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Study the work of the scientists I referenced, and get back to me.



If you want to be a successful Padre in the Canadian Forces, you will need to stow the attitude that you displayed in that post.

Cheers


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## vonGarvin (6 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I put my faith in my family, friends and the relationships i have made.


I think this illustrates best what I mean by "spirituality" in an earlier post I made.  This is a sense of belonging to something greater than one's self.
For CDN Aviator, this is his "group".  Others have other groups.  

I hope this helps illustrate or put into context some of my earlier posts.


----------



## Kat Stevens (6 Jul 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I think the analogy would be for someone to look at one of our calendars and say "There are no days past 31 December.  The world ends!"



Exactly. Anyone ever to stop to think they may have just ran out of room on the rock and couldn't be arsed enough to find another suitable one?


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## Ravanosh (6 Jul 2010)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> If you want to be a successful Padre in the Canadian Forces, you will need to stow the attitude that you displayed in that post.
> 
> Cheers



I was simply replying in kind, it was not intended to be taken offensively. We are all equals here are we not? If that is the case, I do not see why I would not be entitled to responding in a similar manner.

Seeing how my posts have been received, I think I had best explain myself fully. My opinions are not simply formed on subjective faith, but through objective experience. I have the benefit of near-death episodes to draw upon. Since I cannot relay this first-hand experience, the next best thing is to refer to relevant science, hence my reference to the work of Dr. Thomas Campbell.

CDN_Aviator, seeing as you have studied his work, what are your opinions on the hard evidence (i.e. remote-viewing etc.)?


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## mariomike (6 Jul 2010)

My personal opinion, is that the near and new dead may leave their mark - "spirit"? - on those sent to help them. No one individual to a significant degree, but as the years pass by, they start to add up. Best not to dwell on it. 
Sometimes, when you pass by a home or intersection, you are reminded of them for a moment.


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## aesop081 (6 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I have the benefit of near-death episodes to draw upon.



*face palm*.........i'm sorry, there is no point talking with you on this any longer. I should have know better than to talk about religion and god with anyone.



> CDN_Aviator, seeing as you have studied his work, what are your opinions on the hard evidence (i.e. remote-viewing etc.)?



I dismiss it for what it is.........rubbish.


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## aesop081 (6 Jul 2010)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Sometimes, when you pass by a home or intersection, you are reminded of them for a moment.



Yeah.....we atheists call it "remembering stuff" using something called "memory".


----------



## Cat (6 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yeah.....we atheists call it "remembering stuff" using something called "memory".



so do alot of us Christians


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## mariomike (6 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yeah.....we atheists call it "remembering stuff" using something called "memory".



I tried to choose my words as best I could. No offence was intended. Sorry if any was caused.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (6 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I was simply replying in kind, it was not intended to be taken offensively. We are all equals here are we not? If that is the case, I do not see why I would not be entitled to responding in a similar manner.



I am not a Padre, but I have had the priviledge of working closely with a large number of outstanding Padres over the past twenty years.  None would have told someone dismissively to read something and get back to them and none would talk about "responding in kind."  Padres in my experience have a vast reservoir of patience and wisdom; something that I have counted on personally as an individual and professionally as a leader.  Padres need to gain the trust and respect of the soldiers in a unit.  I find that they gain that trust through humility and understanding.  Once they have that trust they can really start to positively affect morale in the unit.  As a sub-unit commander I have spent hours talking with our unit Chaplain on a range of issues - precisely because I trust and respect him.  None of this had to do with religion, but rather to do with his ability to consider an individual's situation and offer counsel/guidance.  

In any case, I hope that you don't think I am picking on you.  The Internetz are a hard way to judge someone, and I apologize if I am coming on a little strong here.

Cheers


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## Ravanosh (6 Jul 2010)

I agree that my tone was inappropriate, and I have modified that post accordingly. Sometimes the temptation to follow suit can be too difficult to ignore. I was hoping that putting my suggestion forward as a challenge would inspire CDN_Aviator to look into the research. Seeing as he has already done so, this was not necessary.

It certainly wasn't said dismissively, but as you said Tango2Bravo, the internet does not allow for subtle tone, and our words are wholly subject to interpretation. I will choose them more carefully in the future, as should many of us.


----------



## 57Chevy (7 Jul 2010)

SARgirl said:
			
		

> a quote from, The Song of Bernadette:
> "For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not, no explanation is possible."



I really love this quote. Thank you for sharing it.


----------



## SARgirl (7 Jul 2010)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I really love this quote. Thank you for sharing it.


You're welcome.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Seeing how my posts have been received, I think I had best explain myself fully. My opinions are not simply formed on subjective faith, but through objective experience. I have the benefit of near-death episodes to draw upon. Since I cannot relay this first-hand experience, the next best thing is to refer to relevant science, hence my reference to the work of Dr. Thomas Campbell.



Don't really want to get involved in this thread, however I couldn't let this quote go by without a comment.

Check the name of this forum and then consider your wording, not only have many had 'near-death' experiences, many have also been too-close witnesses to 'death' experiences.

Something about judging/ walking/ shoes sound familiar......


----------



## Ravanosh (7 Jul 2010)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Check the name of this forum and then consider your wording, not only have many had 'near-death' experiences, many have also been too-close witnesses to 'death' experiences.



Near-death as in Out-of-Body. I'm not saying many on this forum have not had these experiences, I was merely pointing out that they were helpful in reinforcing my conclusions on the nature of reality and spirituality in particular.

Also before this thread disappears into the mix, I would like to thank CDN Aviator, Antoine, and others who provided recommendations on pursuing a career in military science. I believe that as Sapplicant pointed out, the private sector is the most likely place for non-lethal weapons research to be carried out. 

I am working on a patent application and grant proposal for a system that would fit the bill. I'll be picking the brains of forum members in the relevant section for tips on refining the delivery system.


----------



## armychick2009 (7 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> *face palm*.........i'm sorry, there is no point talking with you on this any longer. I should have know better than to talk about religion and god with anyone.



I had to laugh just a little bit on this one... couldn't resist! Have you heard of that list of 3 things to never talk about_ (at work, on a first date, with in-laws, etc...) _unless you want to get into a heated debate?
Politics, Religion and Money?

Oh yea... I've learned to take that to heart so I can avoid events requiring the  *face palm*


----------



## Nemecek (9 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh, 

It seems that you are over-thinking this. While I respect your beliefs in a spiritual universe (One of my majors was religious studies), you have created an error in your career priorities. 

As a Canadian Forces Chaplain, your first duty is to your country and your fellow personnel. Canada is a democratic state, not a theocracy. Liberté, égalité, fraternité are essentially what will become your trinity. While spiritual advice and counsel is a very large part of the job, you will be completely beholden to the ideologies of Canada and its military. The taxpayers are paying your salary, not anyone or anything else. There may even be times when you may be asked to implicitly support something that contradicts your weltpolitik or theological beliefs. You'll have to reconcile that with yourself. 


I've noticed your tag of 'Paladin', and frankly I believe you should rethink it. You give off the aura that you seriously style yourself as some righteous crusader. I think that can be a dangerous mindset. I would seriously caution you about using those wide brush strokes of 'good' and 'evil'. There are many people on both sides of the fence who fit into one of the categories, both, or neither. You seem to be respectful and humble, but I think that your humility is facetious, and you believe you are unequivocally right in everything you profess. You lecture other posters that they should keep their minds open and look for new answers; you should truly take your own advice. You deride other posters for not having the same mindset of what you've come to believe, yet in every major religious text there are passages telling us not to believe those lies spoken by people claiming it is God's truth.


If you want to be a true servant of God, beholden only to the word that you interpret, then join the clergy of whatever faith you profess. If you want to be a true servant of your fellow man, then keep thinking about the Canadian Forces.


----------



## Ravanosh (10 Jul 2010)

In retrospect, I agree that my tone and wording are indicative of a close-minded spiritual viewpoint.

However, my intent was to elaborate upon the reasons for my convictions in as complete a fashion as possible. My hope was that I could instill interest in the fields of theology and metaphysics at the same time - an effort which has lead to misinterpretations of my intent.

I am open and eager to review any science that contradicts my views. Debate on such a heavy topic is intrinsically difficult to have without offending someone at some point. I apologize if I lead anyone to assume that I am not open to well-supported counter arguments.

I adopted the moniker of Paladin as I believe it reflects on my personality - that being a spiritual man with the desire to fight for what is right. Also, I do not use the terms good and evil lightly. I am fully aware that such generalizations are too broad, and remain subject to interpretation. 

Still, I believe that there are many people who fit into the extreme of either moral spectrum.

I appreciate your advice on serving in the Chaplaincy Nemecek. If I were to serve in such a capacity, I would never think to force my beliefs on others. My job would be to instill a sense of the "greater good" in the troops, while serving the faith needs of Christians.

I am sorry to have mislead you, and others, in regards to my intentions. In many posts in this thread I took too active an approach in explaining my position, and I regret having done so.


----------



## Jungle (10 Jul 2010)

A couple of points:

As far as "faith" or "spirituality" goes, I am agnostic; I accept that some things are unexplained and unexplainable, like god, the universe and my kids' adolescence... I believe all religions were invented by humans to control and manipulate other humans, and that if there is a god, he is probably nothing like any of the religions believe. I certainly do not lose any sleep over any of these concepts... Religions have given us traditions in the form of gestures and sayings that some hypocrits decided to make "holy".
Look at the history of conflict, and try to convince me that religions are not one of the main causes of wars.

The Mayan calendar is somewhat like ours; I saw the "long count" stone calendar in Coba, Mexico, and the guide explained to us that like our calendar, it was repetitive. I believe it is now in it's thirteenth repetition. The guide also explained to us that the Mayans were very intelligent people, but that like everybody else, they were incapable of seeing the future.

Nostradamus was an illuminated idiot... and so is the guy who dresses like him on Discovery channel; except he is not illuminated...


----------



## 57Chevy (10 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh,
You have no reason to explain your spiritual values here, nor abase them.
If you feel that you have something to offer to the soldier, whether he be 
Christian or not, then you should go with that.


----------



## Ravanosh (10 Jul 2010)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Look at the history of conflict, and try to convince me that religions are not one of the main causes of wars.



Religious grounds have served as reasoning for a great deal of warfare throughout history, this is true. Our troubles in the middle-east are partly an extension of that fact.

Keep in mind however that religion is often manipulated by those "fighting for it" in order to serve their own purposes. At this point religion becomes nothing more than justification for actions. It is quite possible these actions could have been excused via other methods not involving religion, were it necessary to do so.

It is in large part the sheer prevalence and influence of religion that has lead to its involvement in so much conflict. Granted, there are many wars that were fought on purely religious grounds, but just as many wars have been fought for solely secular reasons that share a similar level of prevalence in society.

Also, I do acknowledge that most religions have been modified (or manipulated if you prefer) repeatedly since their inception. And yes, such amendments have often been made for the purposes of gaining control of the masses and securing positions of power. 

These were loopholes exploited by devious individuals and organizations operating in a religiously dominated environment, in some cases a theocracy. However, modern governments are just as guilty of exploiting secular law to their advantage.

No system of societal guidance is exempt from the manipulations of those hungry for power.



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> Ravanosh,
> You have no reason to explain your spiritual values here, nor abase them.
> If you feel that you have something to offer to the soldier, whether he be
> Christian or not, then you should go with that.



I have some difficulty envisioning a role in the Chaplaincy without a focus on spirituality. My intention throughout this thread has been rationalize my position, while at the same time gauging the response of forum members to philosophical discussion and debate.


----------



## mariomike (10 Jul 2010)

For what it is worth, there are similar topics:

Chaplains:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/89181/post-875781.html#msg875781

Chaplains:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/59190/post-549787.html#msg549787


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## KrazyHamburglar (10 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Also, I do acknowledge that most religions have been modified (or manipulated if you prefer) repeatedly since their inception. And yes, such amendments have often been made for the purposes of gaining control of the masses and securing positions of power.



Just for the sake of discussion...

How do you make a difference between what religion was suppose to be at the beginning and what has been added with time? If most amendments were made to gain control of the masses, isn't it possible that, if we go back at the beginning, religion was created as a political lever?
Also, since you acknowledge the manipulation of religion for political purposes, how do you know that your beliefs doesn't come directly from one of those "unholy" transformations?


Die Religion ist das Opium des Volkes ... indeed my dear Karl... indeed


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jul 2010)

Nemecek said:
			
		

> Ravanosh,
> 
> It seems that you are over-thinking this. While I respect your beliefs in a spiritual universe (One of my majors was religious studies), you have created an error in your career priorities.
> 
> ...



Ravanosh, 
This is perhaps one of the best pieces of advice I've seen for someone in all my years here. It's incredably insightful and I believe pegs you to a T. 
Self stylising yourself as a Holy Crusader/Knight in shinning armor might not be the best approach for you entering into the CF.


----------



## vonGarvin (11 Jul 2010)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Look at the history of conflict, and try to convince me that religions are not one of the main causes of wars.



OK, here goes:
(I'll only go back to 1900, in an exhaustive list, but will talk about noteworthy wars before that)
1904 - 1905 Russo-Japanese War
1905            Russian Revolution of 1905
1910 - 1920 Mexican Revolution 
1911 - 1912 Chinese Revolution
1914 - 1918 World War I
1912 - 1913 Balkan Wars
1916 Easter Rising (Easter Rebellion)
1917 Russian Revolution of 1917
1917 - 1920 Russian Civil War
1919 Spartacus Revolt
1919 - 1921 Irish War of Independence
1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War
1922, October March on Rome
*1926 - 1929 Cristero Rebellion* (Peasants rose up, resisting the government's crack down on the Roman Catholic Church)
1932 - 1935 Chaco War
1936 - 1939 Spanish Civil War 
1937 - 1945 Second Sino-Japanese War
1939 - 1945 World War II
1945 - 1991 Cold War
1948 - 1949 First Arab-Israeli War
1950 - 1953 Korean War
1954 - 1975 Vietnam War
1956 Second Arab-Israeli War
1956 Hungarian Revolution
1956 - 1959 Cuban Revolution
1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion
1967 Third Arab-Israeli War
1968 Prague Spring
1970 Black September
1973 Yom Kippur War
(also called October War, Ramadan War, or Fourth Arab-Israeli War)
1980 - 1988 Iran-Iraq War
1982 Falkland Islands War
1982 Fifth Arab-Israeli War
1990 - 1991 Persian Gulf War
1992 - 1995 Bosnian War
1994 Rwanda Genocide
2003 Iraq War


Of all these wars, only one is a truly "religious" war in terms of its cause.  Some may offer that the Arab-Israeli wars are religious in nature, but they are more about power than spreading one's religion or stopping another's.  
Religious Wars:

1562 - 1598 The French Wars of Religion
1618 - 1648 Thirty Years' War (Started as another bout between Catholics and Protestants)
1095 - 1291 The Crusades.  

So, in the 20th Century, we have a whole list of wars.  One is a religious war.  Others "may" be considered that, as one looks at Ireland, for example, and think of it as a religious war.  Now, granted, one side had Catholics and the other Protestants, but they weren't attacking people for their allegiance to Pope or Archbishop.  

But I would offer that the main causes of war are greed and lust for power.  Even if we caled the current war on terror and stuff that's happening in Afghanistan as a "religious" war, then greed and lust for power still "win" by a large margin.  

We can attempt to blame religion as a main cause of war, but if so, we are sadly mistaken.


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## Jungle (11 Jul 2010)

Technoviking, you're probably right; but I think you are over simplifying things.

If everybody in Israel was a muslim, there would be no problem no matter their origin. If everybody in Northern Ireland were protestant, there probably would have not been a republican movement. If everybody in Bosnia had been a muslim, there would have been no Krajina, and no massacre in Srebrenica.

But all this is hypothetical... we can all believe what we want. I still think there has been too much manipulation from all religions. Look at how the majority of educated people walk away from religion in Western countries... churches in the province of Québec are near a crisis, and it is likely a lot of them will have to close soon. Most of them were built by priests abusing the local population anyway, built by men who had to work all day in their fields, then give time to work on the church to "earn their way to paradise" (old Québec saying: _gagner son ciel_); a lot of the building materials and money were "given" by local merchants for the same reason.


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## vonGarvin (11 Jul 2010)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Technoviking, you're probably right; but I think you are over simplifying things.


Perhaps, but sometimes things are simple.  (I didn't quote the rest of your post because it wasn't on the current variation of this topic).
Anyway, to say that the Arab Israeli wars are purely religious in nature would as a wrong to say that religion weren't a factor at all.  But, as a driving element to make a war a purely religious war, and a main cause of wars, it an erroneous statement.  I'm reminded of a former facebook friend who one day went on a rant blaming religion for most wars.  I brought up a few select cases, such as WW2.  His response was "Hitler was a Catholic".  I stopped responding at that point, because if Hitler was a practicing Catholic, then I'm a monkey's uncle.  

Anyway, just pointing out a common misconception that religion is the cause of so many wars.


----------



## mariomike (11 Jul 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I brought up a few select cases, such as WW2.  His response was "Hitler was a Catholic".  I stopped responding at that point, because if Hitler was a practicing Catholic, then I'm a monkey's uncle.
> Anyway, just pointing out a common misconception that religion is the cause of so many wars.



I think with Hitler, it was mostly about property. Real estate. "Lebensraum" he called it. I would bet a loonie that most wars are. Nothing new about the idea.


----------



## Ravanosh (12 Jul 2010)

Thanks for those links Mariomike. I was having difficulty finding Chaplaincy threads with the forum search, and the two you referenced are very comprehensive.

A post that stood out in one of those threads included this quote:  

"I think on the whole people get into this profession (chaplain) to help people and further the cause of Good prevailing over Evil." - IN HOC SIGNO

These would be my reasons for joining the Chaplaincy, not for evangelism or the ministering of Catholic doctrine.

From the CF website: "Your primary function is to provide religious ministrations and spiritual ministry to all members of a Canadian Forces unit regardless of religious affiliation." 

Based on this description, spirituality would be part of my focus as a Chaplain. Because of this, I have been trying to gauge the reaction of CF members to spiritual discussion thoughout this thread. I believe this is a valuable exercise, as it reveals how practical (or impractical) spiritual ministry would be in the CF.



			
				Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Ravanosh,
> This is perhaps one of the best pieces of advice I've seen for someone in all my years here. It's incredably insightful and I believe pegs you to a T.
> Self stylising yourself as a Holy Crusader/Knight in shinning armor might not be the best approach for you entering into the CF.



The Paladin represents my role-model and reflects on my personality, nothing more. As for Nemecek's assesment being accurate, I would like to point out that his accusations are not entirely supported by the content of my posts. I profess very little, and I doubt that many would be able to determine my particular religious affiliation based on this thread had I not announced it overtly.

If you find my self-assured tone threatening I apologize. If I did not believe I was on the right path, my faith would be hollow. That being said I am open to other viewpoints. I must admit, however, that atheism seems flawed based on my analysis, as it implies that there is no real meaning to life beyond what we as humans assign to it. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Also, my attempts to generate interest in science that can verify a spiritual element to reality should not be misinterpreted as preaching. I would appreciate the opportunity to examine any science that contradicts my views.

That being said, I can provide more evidence in support of a spiritual viewpoint, provided the community is receptive to the idea.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I must admit, however, that atheism seems flawed based on my analysis, as it implies that there is no real meaning to life. Correct me if I am mistaken.



No meaning to life ??

Let me tell you this. I live my life so that those people that follow me will have a better world to live in than i do.

Is that meaning enough for you ?

 :


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## Ravanosh (12 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> No meaning to life ??
> 
> Let me tell you this. I live my life so that those people that follow me will have a better world to live in than i do.
> 
> ...



This is based on your personal code of ethics and has nothing to do with the concept of atheism in and of itself. Atheism implies that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it (I have modified my earlier post to clarify this).

That you have assigned your life such a commendable purpose is heartening. However, other atheists may not possess a similar moral foundation upon which to form their values.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Atheism implies that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it.



...and what i have assigned to it is to make life better for those who come after me.

So it doesn indeed have meaning.

You said it implies there is no meaning to life and i just showe you that you were full of it.


----------



## Ravanosh (12 Jul 2010)

Atheism _DOES _ imply that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it... because you chose to assign your life a great purpose dose not mean your fellow atheists will follow suit. 

I am talking about the concept of atheism as a philosophy *in and of itself*.


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## 1feral1 (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I am talking about the concept of atheism as a philosophy *in and of itself*.



Sir:

I've read your posts, and from what I gather, everything appears either over-philosophical, intensly evaluated, clinically extreme, theoretically challenged, or is somewhat an intense micro-analisation with you, all very dry at that. 

What is your point you are actually trying to make? Are you some uni student doing a paper on something? Yes, and don't call me 'Grasshopper'  

Aspiring Paladin? Explain this one please?

Kindly respond using normal well rounded comprehendable atriculation of the engrish language, with a bit of flair rather than the extremly dehydrated tone, you might get a better more fulfilling response from me and others in the future.


Thanks, and regards,

EDITed for spelling....


----------



## Ravanosh (12 Jul 2010)

Carcharodon Carcharias said:
			
		

> I've read your posts, and from what I gather, everything appears either over-philosophical, intensly evaluated, clinically extreme, theoretically challenged, or is somewhat an intense micro-analisation with you, all very dry at that.
> 
> What is your point you are actually trying to make? Are you some uni student doing a paper on something? Yes, and don't call me 'Grasshopper'
> 
> ...



I'll do my best, but short of repeating myself (which would necessitate reiterating my "dehydrated" tone) I am at a loss.

I have been trying to filter emotion from my posts to avoid conflicts. This may be the dehydrating factor  ;D

My intention is simply to engage in philosophical discusion with an emphasis on spirituality in order to determine if the Chaplaincy has any bearing in the CF as a spiritual institution.

I suppose one of the points I am trying to make is that there is more support for a spiritual viewpoint from the scientific community now than there was in the past.

I'm not writing a paper... and do I rearry need to exprain the Paladin thing again?

Yes? OK, fine   Aspiring Paladin, yeah doesn't make a whole lot of sense. People were taking offence to me using the title "Paladin" by itself, so I added the aspiring to indicate that I do not consider myself to be a "Paladin" but merely working towards that potential.


----------



## 1feral1 (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> My intention is simply to engage in philosophical discusion with an emphasis on spirituality in order to determine if the Chaplaincy has any bearing in the CF as a spiritual institution.



Got it.

You are up late, its only 1825 here Mon night.

My 2 bob on the Padre in theatre...

Looking back into my time in Iraq, the Padre came out from JTF 633 at Victory to visit, at least once a FN, in good times and bad he was always there. He was CofE (Ang), and conducted a multi faith service at whatever day it was(we had no visible minorities, just off the shelf typical Aussie larikin WASPs - infact in my entire time there never saw anything else but WASP Dinky Di's), of which only a few from the entire Combat Team would attend these services. 

Many of us were tasked, whether it be on a mission outside the wire, a QRF, or strong point detail, or CP duty etc. I believe I attended once from CSM pressure, ha! Usually made myself scarce, but if I was in the Cove, he'd find me, just to pop in for a vist to myself and the lads. We always joked with him, and he was always well recieved.

He at one time blessed our ASLAVs, and us, and prayed for our safe return from the Badlands. He laughed at our St Michael - the name of our ASLAV, and the huge ball bag under the roo stencilled on the side. We always gave him the respect he both earned and deserved. He also lead the entire Team on 11 Nov 06, with many US and Coaltion guests, and was present for our dysfunctional Christmas dinner.

He assisted our lads with personal problems, and advised the chain of command if someone had the unfortunate circumstance to go home for reasons other an being wounded. He had a lot of pull for decision making like that. The Padre was there to support the lads for their mental health (especially after an incident which involved the taking of lives) and well being, and did an 11/10 job! The Padre even accompanied us on a mission well outside the wire one day.

According to Aussie legend a la Odd Angry Shot, he even had a 'wanking device' presented to him upon him leaving mid tour. Another one replaced him, although a different bloke, still cut from the same mold.

God Bless the Padre! Not an easy job, and he has a place within Army, any western army, including the CF..

Cheers,

CC


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## KrazyHamburglar (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Atheism _DOES _ imply that life has no meaning beyond what we as humans assign to it... because you chose to assign your life a great purpose dose not mean your fellow atheists will follow suit.



You choose to stay in your religion because it fits your view of life, basically, you assign a meaning to your life based on what you think is right and it
just happens that other people are thinking like you and decided one day to gather around a fire, sing kumbaya and call that a religion...
If you thaught that your religion was not suited to you, you would jump to something else (and a lot of people do...), choosing consciously a
meaning to your life.
What we choose as atheists is more or less the same, we choose our meaning of life just the same way... our horizons are just broader because we
 don't have to adhere to any prescribed doctrine.

Remember that you are atheist of all other random gods in history... Mars, Ganesh, Zeus... we are just adding one more to the list...yours....


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## vonGarvin (12 Jul 2010)

KrazyHamburglar said:
			
		

> What we choose as atheists is more or less the same, we choose our meaning of life just the same way... our horizons are just broader because *we don't have to adhere to any prescribed doctrine*.


I disagree that the assumption is that only those who believe in god* prescribe to a doctrine.  Hell, I know religious people who prescribe to no doctrine as a matter of faith.

Remember, atheist and religious folks believe something that cannot be proven (or disproven): the existence of god.  Agnostics are probably the only ones who believe neither side, and will wait to see what happens, I suppose.


			
				KrazyHamburglar said:
			
		

> Remember that you are atheist of all other random gods in history... Mars, Ganesh, Zeus... we are just adding one more to the list...yours....


You inadvertently bring up a point here.  In all of recorded human history, civilisations and even barbarians have believed in some sort of supreme being.  (Note that I didn't say all civilisations, but just in all of human history there are civilisations that do believe).  Whether one calls god God the Father, Allah, or even Great Spaghetti Monster, there is something there.  Is it some sort of divine a priori thought that we as humans have as a birthright?  It is just fables, stories and tall tales spread throughout?  I'm not sure which is which, but as I freely state, I am a practicing Roman Catholic (in spite of my education)  ;D).

As an aside, I take great issue with the assertion that only the religious can find meaning in life.  Whether one is atheist or not, we humans know that we are part of something special.  Whether it's an accident of time, space or physics, we are somehow part of something, and one doesn't have to believe in god to feel that way.  Think about it.  Everyone here has a mother and a father.  Some have siblings, and other still have children.  There is an unmistakable bond there that implies so much.  I believe that this goes, to varying degrees, to all across humanity.  So, atheist, religious or agnostic, we all share something and believe in something greater than us as individuals.

*god=non-denominational term for a supreme being or supreme beings.


----------



## Redeye (12 Jul 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> His response was "Hitler was a Catholic".  I stopped responding at that point, because if Hitler was a practicing Catholic, then I'm a monkey's uncle.
> 
> Anyway, just pointing out a common misconception that religion is the cause of so many wars.



Hitler claimed many, many times to have been a Catholic, to revere Catholic imagery, etc.  And it's long been noted that the Vatican didn't do much to express dispproval of him nor or Mussolini's fascism.  That said, it really would appear that Hitler just harnessed religious imagery and ideas to suit his ends, he viewed the church as a tool to strengthen his own views and to cast himself as a greater man.

I note, interestingly, that many of the more religiously ignorant types try the opposite tack, to try to suggest that Hitler was an atheist (which is fairly easily refuted), and even more bizarrely, to try to link his hatred of Jews and the Holocaust to Darwin, evolution, etc.  This is a particularly disturbing trend being advocated by Creationist nutters in the States more than anywhere else.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> The Paladin represents my role-model and reflects on my personality, nothing more.



I'm assuming you're talking about the fictional "Paladin" and not from the Charlemagne and Roland fame?

Having grown up a bit of a nerd and "playing Paladins" do you realize how close minded and fanatical they are? They have one way of doing business, theirs.
Traditionally their not very big on science either. As far as their theme goes they are probably at the opposite end of science.  
Is a close minded fanatical religious holy warrior who uses violence to further the cause of their church really the role-model you aspire to be? 
 (before we get into an argument about the sci-fi Paladin and what they are, I have 18 years nerding it up being exposed to them on and off and even have "The Paladins handbook")   ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (12 Jul 2010)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Hitler claimed many, many times to have been a Catholic, to revere Catholic imagery, etc.  And it's long been noted that the Vatican didn't do much to express dispproval of him nor or Mussolini's fascism.  That said, it really would appear that Hitler just harnessed religious imagery and ideas to suit his ends, he viewed the church as a tool to strengthen his own views and to cast himself as a greater man.
> 
> I note, interestingly, that many of the more religiously ignorant types try the opposite tack, to try to suggest that Hitler was an atheist (which is fairly easily refuted), and even more bizarrely, to try to link his hatred of Jews and the Holocaust to Darwin, evolution, etc.  This is a particularly disturbing trend being advocated by Creationist nutters in the States more than anywhere else.


I think that his Catholicism may have been warped if he actually practiced church doctrine.  Having said that, he tried to overtake Church imagery, etc.  He used the church, as you said, a tool for his own gains.  But I'm fairly certain that Herr Hitler was no more a practicing Roman Catholic than Osama bin Laden.

As an aside, the vatican was stuck with a gun figuratively and literally to its head. 
This  is a review of a book about Vatican opposition to nazism.  Yes, it's on a Catholic website, but for what it's worth, there it is.

Here  is something about what was read to parishoners on Passion Sunday in 1937.
The response:


> The (censored) German newspapers did not mention the encyclical at all; the offices of every German diocese were visited the next day by the Gestapo and all extant copies were seized. Every publishing company that had printed it was closed and sealed, diocesan newspapers were all proscribed and limits imposed on the paper available for Church purposes.  Catholic flags were prohibited at religious ceremonies and towns with religious names (Heiligenstadt, etc.) were renamed



There are more sites out there about this, but *in this one case*, Wikipedia does have a well-referenced article.


----------



## Jungle (12 Jul 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Agnostics are probably the only ones who believe neither side, and will wait to see what happens, I suppose.



"Waiting" is a big word, as I am in no hurry to find out what comes next, if anything does... but I am not worried. I live according to the values that were passed on to me by my parents; some have their origins in the Roman Catholic church, some have moral or legal bases.



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> As an aside, I take great issue with the assertion that only the religious can find meaning in life.  Whether one is atheist or not, we humans know that we are part of something special.  Whether it's an accident of time, space or physics, we are somehow part of something, and one doesn't have to believe in god to feel that way.  Think about it.  Everyone here has a mother and a father.  Some have siblings, and other still have children.  There is an unmistakable bond there that implies so much.  I believe that this goes, to varying degrees, to all across humanity.  So, atheist, religious or agnostic, we all share something and believe in something greater than us as individuals.



Very good post, TV. That is exactly the way I feel; I just don't like to insert some abstract concept in the equasion. We will never know the truth about god or the beginning of the universe, among other things, so I concentrate on things that are "real".

As for people like ravanosh, who insist that my life has no meaning, well... he is more proof that there are brainwashed radicals in all religions, who believe that their's is the one "true religion", which upholds the only "true values" and adores the only "true god". And he is asking us to widen our horizons ??  :


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## vonGarvin (12 Jul 2010)

Jungle said:
			
		

> As for people like ravanosh, who insist that my life has no meaning, well... he is more proof that there are brainwashed radicals in all religions, who believe that their's is the one "true religion", which upholds the only "true values" and adores the only "true god". And he is asking us to widen our horizons ??  :



The funny thing is, many religions have the same values, same god in some cases as well!  Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God.  I just wish that all people would actually follow whatever it is their religion says to do: eg: be nice to others.  The rest is details.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Jul 2010)

Mom says it best about religion, "They're all trying to get to the same place, how the hell can they find something to fight about?"
[She's 82 and still goes to church]


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## Ravanosh (12 Jul 2010)

Jungle said:
			
		

> As for people like ravanosh, who insist that my life has no meaning, well... he is more proof that there are brainwashed radicals in all religions, who believe that their's is the one "true religion", which upholds the only "true values" and adores the only "true god". And he is asking us to widen our horizons ??  :



I did no such thing! There is a huge difference between establishing the concept of atheism as a philosophy and accusing atheists of leading empty lives... your jumping to conclusions and missing my point.

If you look at my posts you will see that I have never claimed to believe in any "one true" anything. Every religion has a piece of the puzzle, and I study them all as much as I can. My focus has been and always will be on spirituality, not on doctrine.

I am an open-minded theologist because my experience does not allow for the absence of spirituality in my philosophy. If you are a spiritual "atheist", then you obviously believe in _something_ (the miracle of the natural world, the sanctity of human bonds etc. all of these are reflections of something greater than us) and there are so many ways to define and conceptualize the concept of "God".

Atheism may counter anything from the existence of a deity, to the existence of any spiritual, supernatural, or transcendental concepts. It is the broader atheist I am addressing, not those with any manner of spiritual inclination.


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## aesop081 (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> accusing atheists of leading empty lives... your jumping to conclusions and missing my point.



So you dont remember saying this :



> I must admit, however, that atheism seems flawed based on my analysis, as it implies that there is no real meaning to life. Correct me if I am mistaken.



Good thing i quoted you.


----------



## Michael OLeary (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> I am an open-minded theologist because my experience does not allow for the absence of spirituality in my philosophy.



You have chosen your theology, let others choose their own.

In seven pages you have found no converts to your personal viewpoint, neither have you changed your own.  Leave it at that. Choosing to embrace spirituality, based in religion or otherwise, is a personal choice, with no definitive effect on the quality of the person as a soldier, sailor or airman. No-one is asking you to "allow for the absence of spirituality in [your personal] philosophy". You will not be oppressed for your views, but you will be expected not to try and force your views on others (no matter how gently, politely or subtly you think you may try to do so). Find peace for yourself within your own concept of spirituality and let others find peace with their own.


----------



## the 48th regulator (12 Jul 2010)

A valuable lesson to be learned

dileas

tess


----------



## Ravanosh (12 Jul 2010)

Good link 48th regulator, that video addresses some of the fundamental flaws in Christianity (namely that a partial and petty God could exist).

Something I would like to put forward for consideration: if our beliefs determine our afterlife, and you believe that no afterlife exists, might you not be taking a considerable risk?


----------



## the 48th regulator (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Good link 48th regulator, that video addresses some of the fundamental flaws in Christianity (namely that a partial and petty God could exist).
> 
> Something I would like to put forward for consideration: if our beliefs determine our afterlife, and you believe that no afterlife exists, might you not be taking a considerable risk?



My challenge is when Science and Religion mix.....

dileas

tess


----------



## aesop081 (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> might you not be taking a considerable risk?



I dont beleive there is an afterlife so what the heck do i have to worry about ? What risk am i taking ? That i might end up in hell instead of heaven ?

 ???

Since i dont beleive there is an afterlife, how can that beleif determine my afterlife ?


----------



## Ravanosh (12 Jul 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I dont beleive there is an afterlife so what the heck do i have to worry about ? What risk am i taking ? That i might end up in hell instead of heaven ?
> 
> ???
> 
> Since i dont beleive there is an afterlife, how can that beleif determine my afterlife ?



The risk: 
You believe that there is nothing after life ends, so that is the what you end up with - nothing. You cease to exist because that is what you believe should happen.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> The risk:
> You believe that there is nothing after life ends, so that is the what you end up with - nothing. You cease to exist because that is what you believe should happen.



Is what i am saying so complicated that you are not capable of understanding what i say ?

I beleive there is nothing after.........if beleiving that leads to nothing after, why the fuck should i be worried ?

I'm not risking anything.............


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## Scott (12 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh,

Just leave it alone. Just because CDN Aviator is forming statements as questions I don't think he is seeking answers.

Just let it go man.


----------



## Jungle (14 Jul 2010)

FINALLY !! The definitive guide to choosing the religion that suits you best:


----------



## Nemecek (14 Jul 2010)

Guess I'm a Mayan then, who knew!

Time to brush up on my libations to Kinich Ahau and Kulkucan.


Also, would anyone like to join me while I dress up like a wayob and dance with Tonsured Maize God? Great fun will ensue!


----------



## vonGarvin (14 Jul 2010)

Nemecek said:
			
		

> Also, would anyone like to join me while I dress up like a wayob and dance with Tonsured Maize God? Great fun will ensue!


Naw, as a boring, generic Christian, I'll just eat some bacon and watch.  Because I f*cking LOVE bacon!  ;D


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## vonGarvin (14 Jul 2010)

Jungle said:
			
		

> FINALLY !! The definitive guide to choosing the religion that suits you best:


First of all, this is f*cking hilarious!  I love it!  But for those who would take offense from this, yes, I realise that nowhere does it talk about morality, which is the essense of _religious_ spirituality (the theme of this thread).  Having said that, a good sense of humour is, *I believe**, one of God's greatest gifts to us.


*This is my belief.  Once in a while, I'll let out a belief every once in a while.


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## Redeye (15 Jul 2010)

Ravanosh said:
			
		

> Something I would like to put forward for consideration: if our beliefs determine our afterlife, and you believe that no afterlife exists, might you not be taking a considerable risk?



This is a rather bizarre warping of Pascal's Wager, a rather thoroughly debunked argument.

I think Captain O'Leary offered the best advice to you, Ravanosh.


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## Ravanosh (21 Jul 2010)

I believe I have one final method of illustrating my point. 

A question: What existed prior to the beginning of time as we know it, and the creation of the universe as we understand it?

If one replies by saying "nothing", then the implication is that "something came from nothing", a statement that can be disputed by logical reasoning. How does one generate "something" from "nothing"? They are mutually exclusive states.

Therefore, "something" must have always existed, from which to generate the reality that we currently perceive.

Provided no one disputes this logical deduction, I will carry this line of thought forward to more interesting considerations.


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## Michael OLeary (21 Jul 2010)

No, you won't.  I am certain you can find another piece of the Internet more suited to the discussion you appear to feel a need to participate in. 

Milnet.ca Staff


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