# Question about C7A2/Aiming



## Frederic (30 Mar 2017)

Hi I was wondering if it's actually an issue that I cannot aim down sight through a magnified scope with one eye closed, I can't close an eye so I always keep my both eyes open while aiming. Will this be a problem in the army if I have to use the Elcan scope or can I take it off of the C7A2 at my own preference, let me know thx.


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## Occam (30 Mar 2017)

People close one eye and aim a rifle with the other?  I've only ever seen the training in the CF encourage both eyes open.


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## MilEME09 (30 Mar 2017)

You cannot and will not be taking an Elcan for the purpose of shooting at any time. You will keep both eyes open while shooting as this is the proper way to prevent tunnel vision.

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## childs56 (30 Mar 2017)

Depending on the situation, depending on the individual will decide on one eye open one eye closed. 

Individual preference and experiance. 
Basic marksmanship training should start with teaching one eye closed, get use to the rifle and become a good shot. Then work on other techniques such as shooting with both eyes open. rapid fire, different modified positions. 

Both eyes open for many is distracting and hard to focus on becoming a good marksmen.  That is not to say that is everyones preference. 

Good luck with your training.


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## Lumber (30 Mar 2017)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> You cannot and will not be taking an Elcan for the purpose of shooting at any time. You will keep both eyes open while shooting as this is the proper way to prevent tunnel vision.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk



I've only ever been taught one eye closed. I've been _told_ I can keep both eyes opened, and also told that many find this better, but no one told me it was doctrine. 

Source of learning: Basic Wpns Trg, Refresher Wpns Trg (both with the Navy and by the Army), and Naval Boarding Party trg.

That being said, I'm curious, _do_ soldiers on deployment get any say wrt customizing their weapons in theatre?


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## LightFighter (30 Mar 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> That being said, I'm curious, _do_ soldiers on deployment get any say wrt customizing their weapons in theatre?



Depends on the CoC, as well even with a command that approves add ons, they can only be non permanent changes and no changing of internals. 

Slings, Rail systems(RAS) to replace the hand guards and forward grips are common. As well to a lesser extant butt stocks and sights(ACOG, etc).


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## Lumber (30 Mar 2017)

LightFighter said:
			
		

> Depends on the CoC, as well even with a command that approves add ons, they can only be non permanent changes and no changing of internals.
> 
> Slings, Rail systems(RAS) to replace the hand guards and forward grips are common. As well to a lesser extant butt stocks and sights(ACOG, etc).



Did anyone on deployment ever go with Iron Sights?


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## MilEME09 (30 Mar 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Did anyone on deployment ever go with Iron Sights?



Iron sights only? no, there are flip up iron iron sights in the system that can be added to be used in an emergency. SF might use them as a back up sight as well, though I've heard that a red dot or holo sight combined with a optical sight is more common.

It should be noted no modification can be undertaken by the member without prior authorization from the CoC. As a weapons tech I am authorized to remove and dispose of any illegal modifications to weapons. Illegal modification is also a chargeable offense.


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## LightFighter (30 Mar 2017)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Iron sights only? no, there are flip up iron iron sights in the system that can be added to be used in an emergency. SF might use them as a back up sight as well, though I've heard that a red dot or holo sight combined with a optical sight is more common.
> 
> It should be noted no modification can be undertaken by the member without prior authorization from the CoC. As a weapons tech I am authorized to remove and dispose of any illegal modifications to weapons. Illegal modification is also a chargeable offense.



I've been overseas, and I can state as a fact some members have used iron sights on deployment. 

I also use my own sling, and RAS, etc on my work rifle. 



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Did anyone on deployment ever go with Iron Sights?



Yes, I have seen a couple guys use iron sights on deployment. They purchased the carry handle type iron sight and used that on their rifle.


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## PuckChaser (30 Mar 2017)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> It should be noted no modification can be undertaken by the member without prior authorization from the CoC. As a weapons tech I am authorized to remove and dispose of any illegal modifications to weapons. Illegal modification is also a chargeable offense.



Including illegal aftermarket slings like the CANFORGEN stated? You must be super popular if you're going around inspecting weapons for dangerous pieces of cordura or angled foregrips.

I was issued a plastic iron sight for Roto 4 that was used in case of optic failure.


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## MilEME09 (30 Mar 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Including illegal aftermarket slings like the CANFORGEN stated? You must be super popular if you're going around inspecting weapons for dangerous pieces of cordura or angled foregrips.
> 
> I was issued a plastic iron sight for Roto 4 that was used in case of optic failure.


I dont need to do it, RSM loves to do it for me. Keeps me not hated 

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## PuckChaser (30 Mar 2017)

I guess that's why the term "Service Battalion Mentality" has stuck around for so long...


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## MilEME09 (30 Mar 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I guess that's why the term "Service Battalion Mentality" has stuck around for so long...


Do explain, im curious

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## PuckChaser (30 Mar 2017)

Service Battalion in the Regular Force is a place where no Log trades want to go, because of the need to out-soldier the Combat Arms units and the shear amount of stupidity (like checking rifle slings) that goes on. Similar sayings exist for HQ&Sigs as well.


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## MilEME09 (30 Mar 2017)

Ack, dont get me wrong I have non issue with slings for example but in the PRes do you really need a $50 sling for a couple weekends a year?

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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2017)

Learning to get proper sight picture, etc with both eyes open *usually* doesn't take that long and can be done during your dry fire trg (if you do any).  I've seen people get it in a few minutes and others not get it at all.  The practice started, AFAIK, when the C-79 came into the system mid 90s or so.  Before that, I was never taught to shoot both eyes open on the C1 or C7 when it first came out.

Having said that, I don't recall ever firing the C9 with both eyes open (with scope on it).


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## PuckChaser (30 Mar 2017)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Ack, dont get me wrong I have non issue with slings for example but in the PRes do you really need a $50 sling for a couple weekends a year?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk



If the issued one is a complete piece of crap, absolutely. Slings will last forever as well, so if someone wants to buy a sling and as long as it doesn't block the ejection port as some 3-point slings will do, who cares? Same thing with another foregrip. The CADEX one mounts via a rail, so do all other grips. Why one rail is approved and everything else is illegal mods is just ridiculous.

I was originally taught closed eye technique on the C-79, but that rapidly changed to both eyes open a few years later once the real gunfights started happening.


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## MilEME09 (30 Mar 2017)

You make a valid point, if its not impeding function does it matter? Sounds like the majority answer is no.

I was tought by infanteers on my BMQ to keep both open.

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## Bass ackwards (30 Mar 2017)

There are a surprising number of people who are right-handed but have a dominant left eye. 
I'd be curious to hear if that combination causes much grief for people trying to use sights with both eyes open.


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## childs56 (31 Mar 2017)

B-GL-385-001 THE RIFLE 5.56MM C7 AND THE CARBINE 5.56MM C8

 Aiming C-79 Optical Sight.a. *Close the eye not in use*.b. Ensure you have a clear circular view through the Optical Sight.

Aiming. Explain and demonstrate:a. Where to Aim. Aim at the lowest central point of the aiming mark on a targetwith an aiming patch. Aim at the middle of a man, a figure target or any indistincttarget (see Figure 2-20). At ranges in excess of 300 metres aim high at ranges lessthan 300 metres aim low.b. How to Aim. Aiming can never become instinctive, though practice can inducespeed. Above all, it requires concentration to achieve sight alignment togetherwith the correct aim picture which is a four point relationship between the eye, thecentre of the aperture, the tip of the foresight and the point of aim. The procedurefor aiming is as follows1)* Close the eye not in use*

has this changed and if so is this official change or a field one?


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## dangerboy (31 Mar 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> That being said, I'm curious, _do_ soldiers on deployment get any say wrt customizing their weapons in theatre?



While not everyone obeys the regulation as stated earlier there is regulations about customizing weapons:



> CANFORGEN 076/14 DLEPS 14/014 091431Z MAY 14
> 
> CANFORGEN -076/14 - NON-AUTHORIZED SMALL ARMS MODIFICATIONS
> 
> ...


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## Lumber (31 Mar 2017)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> While not everyone obeys the regulation as stated earlier there is regulations about customizing weapons:



This is just to cover the government's ass if something goes wrong. Everything everyone has said makes perfect sense; a sling or a grip is not a big deal and shouldn't be banned. However, if some modification of some sort does end up causing an issue, the military can turn around and say "hey, we told them not to, here's the reference."


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## Eaglelord17 (2 Apr 2017)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Ack, dont get me wrong I have non issue with slings for example but in the PRes do you really need a $50 sling for a couple weekends a year?
> 
> Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk



Well when your unit only has the crappy old patrol slings and the new C7A2s don't have the proper sling mounts for that sling, a personal sling becomes quite nice (especially when you are having stoppages due to the patrol sling).

Train as you intend to fight. If in wartime you are going to use better kit then what is issued, use that kit when you train be it on a weekend ex or a month long ex.


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## MilEME09 (2 Apr 2017)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Well when your unit only has the crappy old patrol slings and the new C7A2s don't have the proper sling mounts for that sling, a personal sling becomes quite nice (especially when you are having stoppages due to the patrol sling).
> 
> Train as you intend to fight. If in wartime you are going to use better kit then what is issued, use that kit when you train be it on a weekend ex or a month long ex.


Actually there was suppose to be a new CADPAT patrol sling for the A2 no idea what happened to it but it is in the tech documents

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## PuckChaser (2 Apr 2017)

Differed until 2040.


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## Lerch (10 Apr 2017)

Getting back to the OP, is there a reason such as parallax/eye relief that's stopping you from using a magnified optic?

Using a 20x scope on a hunting rifle is a _bit_ more magnification than the 3.4x ELCAN, but you can atleast adjust the eye relief by moving the optic back or forth.


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