# North Park Armoury rehabilitation project in Halifax



## OceanBonfire (2 May 2019)

> May 2, 2019 – Halifax, Nova Scotia – National Defence / Canadian Armed Forces
> 
> As outlined in Canada’s defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, our government is investing in modern, functional, and green defence infrastructure to support the evolving needs of our military.
> 
> ...



https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=314674215880682

https://www.facebook.com/NationalDefenceGC/posts/367920333833121

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2019/05/government-marks-wall-reconstruction-at-north-park-armoury.html


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## mariomike (2 May 2019)

See also,

https://navy.ca/forums/threads/111670.0
"The armoury is known for its red rock-faced stone exterior and Richardsonian Romanesque style. It was designed by Thomas Fuller, the chief architect at the Public Works Department at the time.

The building was declared a National Historic Site in 1989, in part because it is so much larger than other drill halls of its era. It was built to hold everything from lecture rooms to a bowling alley to an indoor shooting range, according to Parks Canada."


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## OceanBonfire (25 Oct 2021)

> ...
> 
> Phase 2 will rehabilitate the rest of the building's envelope, including masonry, windows and roof, as well as major upgrades to the interior.
> 
> ...





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-armoury-restoration-progress-overruns-1.6221485


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Oct 2021)

Let's hope they remember to include the telecommunication system in the contract, so we don't have repeat of the Seaforth Armoury oops.


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## FJAG (25 Oct 2021)

Kind of like an episode of "Love it - or List It", isn't it?

You always know that in the middle of the renovation a problem will spring up that's been lurking behind one wall or ceiling for over thirty years, that the pre-bid inspection didn't disclose, that absolutely requires addressing in order to ensure the structural integrity of the building and that no one has prepared for with a contingency budget.

It's a tedious plot thread.


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## dapaterson (25 Oct 2021)

The indecent obsession with preserving old, unsuitable buildings for the Reserves, rather than handing them off to be repurposed and giving new, appropriate facilities to meet modern needs will continue to needlessly drain the defence budget.

But the messes will all be preserved, so the vital ground is protected.


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## OldSolduer (26 Oct 2021)

dapaterson said:


> The indecent obsession with preserving old, unsuitable buildings for the Reserves, rather than handing them off to be repurposed and giving new, appropriate facilities to meet modern needs will continue to needlessly drain the defence budget.
> 
> But the messes will all be preserved, so the vital ground is protected.


Many of these old Armories needed replacing 20 years ago but “kick the can down the road” syndrome appeared


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## daftandbarmy (29 Oct 2021)

dapaterson said:


> The indecent obsession with preserving old, unsuitable buildings for the Reserves, rather than handing them off to be repurposed and giving new, appropriate facilities to meet modern needs will continue to needlessly drain the defence budget.
> 
> But the messes will all be preserved, so the vital ground is protected.



I like the wrought iron 'security' bars over many of the windows. It's like, medieval man.

Ironically, it reflects the experiences of many of the occupants and is a mute warning to others who might think about joining 






The Bay Street Armoury was designated Recognized because of its historical association, its architectural significance, its structural design, and its contextual value.

The Armoury was built during the militia building campaign of 1896-1918, in which more than 100 drill halls and armouries were erected across the country. These buildings played a significant part in the militia reform by functioning as both training and recruitment centres.

In its architectural design, the Bay Street Armoury makes reference to medieval military architecture, the Tudor Revival style. Structurally, the Victoria Armoury exhibits the most integrated use of new structural materials available in the early 20th century. Structural materials consisted of steel and iron encased with fireproof materials and reinforced concrete used together with wood, stone and brick.






						Parks Canada - Bay Street Armoury
					






					www.pc.gc.ca


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## FJAG (29 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I like the wrought iron 'security' bars over many of the windows. It's like, medieval man.
> 
> Ironically, it reflects the experiences of many of the occupants and is a mute warning to others who might think about joining
> 
> ...


Most of them stand on prime downtown real estate and would probably fetch enough money to fund a new more modern complex slightly more suburbish with lots of parking for civilian and military vehicles etc.

I always liked what Delta Hotels did with the one in London. And yes, that tall tower is part of the hotel and built right into the old armoury.


















🍻


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Oct 2021)

I have stayed in that hotel. It was really nice.


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## Weinie (30 Oct 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I have stayed in that hotel. It was really nice.


Yup.Ditto.


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## FSTO (30 Oct 2021)

I guess I'll put this here. The Bytown Naval Officers Mess is to put it mildly a building that should be condemned. 10 years ago it was going to cost 3 million dollars to fix the problems. Since the building was a private entity (a group of officers bought the house during WWII) there was problems with financing. Before I left for Bahrain in 2020, there was quite the debate on what to do with it. A developer wanted to purchase the property outright, a developer wanted to build a condo with the mess incorporated into the building, or gift the building to the crown and allow ADM(IM) to fix it. I guess we went with option 3 and now the cost is north of 8 million to fix and of course there is push-back from ADM(IM).
Hindsight being 2020 we should have sold the joint and bought a house on the river by Carling Campus! LOL!


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Oct 2021)

FJAG said:


> Most of them stand on prime downtown real estate and would probably fetch enough money to fund a new more modern complex slightly more suburbish with lots of parking for civilian and military vehicles etc.


That ship has sailed for the most part. yes you make money selling it and then lose it trying to buy a new piece of land in any of the Urban areas. Then you have to build to the modern standards and that can be quite expensive. Other issues is that the FN have to be given a chance to buy it and they or any other buyer might demand the land is remediated before the sale. Plus if the building has a heritage designation, then that effects the price and the buyer pool.
The big issue with many of the armouries is that land adjacent was either sold off or land that was needed to make them more functional was not purchased when it was cheap to do so in the 1980's.


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## dapaterson (30 Oct 2021)

As I recall, there had been discussions about CFMWS buying Bytown, levelling it, and building an IR hotel with the mess on the ground floor.

I suspect the plan was derailed as they discovered (a) it's a heritage building and (b) most folks on IR now want to be closer to Carling than to 101.

The future of subsidized drinking clubs for the military is another issue (perhaps something for CPCC to examine).


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## Ostrozac (30 Oct 2021)

The future of messes is a separate issue from the future of armouries, but it does share a common thread in our collective inability to manage infrastructure. And neither issue shows many signs of progress — I was on a mess committee over 10 years ago when I saw documents being staffed around discussing the future of messes in the CAF. Since then? No changes. Similarly, with armouries, there is no capability to plan ahead, and even when the department’s hand is forced by a building that self-divests (fire, roof collapse, etc…) it is a glacial process to deliver replacement infrastructure.


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## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> The future of messes is a separate issue from the future of armouries, but it does share a common thread in our collective inability to manage infrastructure. And neither issue shows many signs of progress — I was on a mess committee over 10 years ago when I saw documents being staffed around discussing the future of messes in the CAF. Since then? No changes. Similarly, with armouries, there is no capability to plan ahead, and even when the department’s hand is forced by a building that self-divests (fire, roof collapse, etc…) it is a glacial process to deliver replacement infrastructure.



The challenge, of course, is that regiments hang on to these decrepit (and dangerous in some cases) anachronisms because they don't trust that there is a viable alternative can be provided.

The rug has been pulled out from under them so frequently by 'the Army' they can't conceive of any other option than to try and train a 21st C soldier in a facility designed for the 18th C, and built in the 19th/ early 20th C.

Like that one time (years ago) when I suggested that we try to get wifi into the building... there is still no wifi. Except that one of the Cadet Corps lodgers has somehow figured it out "As the sapling, so the maple."


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## Bluebulldog (18 Nov 2021)

FJAG said:


> Most of them stand on prime downtown real estate and would probably fetch enough money to fund a new more modern complex slightly more suburbish with lots of parking for civilian and military vehicles etc.
> 
> I always liked what Delta Hotels did with the one in London. And yes, that tall tower is part of the hotel and built right into the old armoury.



Concur.

An excellent example of a P3 project with a high degree of success. 

It should be used as an example for the Capital renewal strategies going forward.  Lots more land available in suburban and semi-rural areas just outside the urban core. Other than personnel who are living downtown ( Uni and College students), it would likely benefit more people as well.


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## MilEME09 (18 Nov 2021)

Bluebulldog said:


> Concur.
> 
> An excellent example of a P3 project with a high degree of success.
> 
> It should be used as an example for the Capital renewal strategies going forward.  Lots more land available in suburban and semi-rural areas just outside the urban core. Other than personnel who are living downtown ( Uni and College students), it would likely benefit more people as well.


especially post covid, a lot of commercial and industrial land is sitting empty that DND could pick up some good plots of land for some more modern facilities. Example, for anyone you in Calgary, the site of the old Lafarge concrete plant off Deerfoot and southland is a massive site that already has dedicated in and out routes with enough space for civilian parking, green fleet, and ample maintenance and other facility space.


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## CountDC (19 Nov 2021)

For some the problem is that the military doesn't have all the say in it.   I remember the Adjt at 1 Fd  (Halifax Armoury at the time) bringing in a part of the building that had fallen while he was walking and having it sent to I think it was Parks Canada or National Heritage that had control of the outer shell.  He was fed up trying to get maintenance done as the military wouldn't pay as it was a heritage issue and the other group didn't feel it was bad enough for them to fund.  This was also at the time the front wall had bracing put in as it had started to lean more at least partly due to the Navy practicing the gun run for the Tattoo there which included firing the gun facing that wall (I know they blame it fully on the Halifax explosion but I don't think it was coincidence that it became really noticeable after the navy did that).


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## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2021)

Just for interest... seen on the BC government's procurement site 'BC Bid':

This old armoury was passed on the BC Government years ago and they turned it into (pretty sketchy in some cases) office space....


*The Armouries Building Project*

The Legislative Assembly of British Columbia is looking for either an Architectural/Engineering/Design firm or a combination thereof ("Consultant") to develop a concept design, and potentially additional deliverables, for a new building to replace the current Armouries building.

The Assembly has recently initiated a Long-Term Capital Restoration and Renovation plan for the Precinct buildings. As part of the proposed long-term precinct redevelopment opportunities, the Assembly is exploring its options for a potential new Armouries building located on the precinct grounds ("Project").

Proponents are welcome to form partnerships/collaborations with other firms or hire subcontractors in order to deliver the services required.

A Mandatory Proponents Meeting will be held on Wednesday, November 24, 2021, @ 10:00 AM PT.

The meeting will be held via Microsoft Teams or Zoom. Proponents must register by sending in a completed registration form and will then receive the login details for the call. Meeting details may only be shared with members of the same organization



https://www.bcbid.gov.bc.ca/open.dl...rsion_nos=2&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Dec 2021)

This is the home to my unit. the area to the North was the stables, the small area to the east was never purchased and was rundown shops. Had we purchased the area to the East, we could have had full vehicle access to the armoury and likely added extra classrooms, sleeping accommodations or at the very least another vehicle compound. The Armoury also used to host the BC Hussars. there was serious attempts to have the city take over the armouries, until the engineers realized that the building was overbuilt and likely to survive an earthquake. Now thank to poor longterm planning there is no parking and cramped compound for Gun Tractors that are far to big for the role.


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## Kirkhill (1 Dec 2021)

FJAG said:


> Most of them stand on prime downtown real estate and would probably fetch enough money to fund a new more modern complex slightly more suburbish with lots of parking for civilian and military vehicles etc.
> 
> I always liked what Delta Hotels did with the one in London. And yes, that tall tower is part of the hotel and built right into the old armoury.
> 
> ...



It strikes me that the concept itself is viable for renovating existing armouries.  It appears as if the parade square has been retained (although a pool has been added) while new accommodations have been built overhead.  How much to buy the plans from Delta (or the engineering firm)?  New offices, classrooms, comms centres (and wifi).  I can see something like that fitting in quite nicely at Mewata and similarly designed armouries.


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## FJAG (1 Dec 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> ...  It appears as if the parade square has been retained (although a pool has been added) while new accommodations have been built overhead. ...


When you take a look at the building from overhead on Google Earth, you'll see that in fact the main structure is built right into the middle of the parade square and dividing what's left of the parade square into two parts - on one end is the pool area and on the other side of the building the lounge and dining facilities.








I think they had an absolutely inspired architect involved.

🍻


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## Kirkhill (1 Dec 2021)

FJAG said:


> When you take a look at the building from overhead on Google Earth, you'll see that in fact the main structure is built right into the middle of the parade square and dividing what's left of the parade square into two parts - on one end is the pool area and on the other side of the building the lounge and dining facilities.
> 
> View attachment 67486
> 
> ...


Thanks.  You're right on the architect.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> This is the home to my unit. the area to the North was the stables, the small area to the east was never purchased and was rundown shops. Had we purchased the area to the East, we could have had full vehicle access to the armoury and likely added extra classrooms, sleeping accommodations or at the very least another vehicle compound. The Armoury also used to host the BC Hussars. there was serious attempts to have the city take over the armouries, until the engineers realized that the building was overbuilt and likely to survive an earthquake. Now thank to poor longterm planning there is no parking and cramped compound for Gun Tractors that are far to big for the role.
> 
> 
> View attachment 67484



I loved watching the troops try to get a bunch of MSVS' into a tiny parking compound designed for 18 pounder horse teams


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## FJAG (2 Dec 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I loved watching the troops try to get a bunch of MSVS' into a tiny parking compound designed for 18 pounder horse teams


I was there when Moss Park Armouries was opened in '66. It has a garage in the basement and a garage door at the back giving access to the parade square. You could drive an M135 deuce and a C1 howitzer into both of those but only if the tarp was in the low position. One day the garage door was busted. The rumour was someone infantryman hadn't put their tarp down.

😁


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## RedFive (11 Dec 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> This is the home to my unit. the area to the North was the stables, the small area to the east was never purchased and was rundown shops. Had we purchased the area to the East, we could have had full vehicle access to the armoury and likely added extra classrooms, sleeping accommodations or at the very least another vehicle compound. The Armoury also used to host the BC Hussars. there was serious attempts to have the city take over the armouries, until the engineers realized that the building was overbuilt and likely to survive an earthquake. Now thank to poor longterm planning there is no parking and cramped compound for Gun Tractors that are far to big for the role.
> 
> 
> View attachment 67484


The Beatty Street Drill Hall had its vehicle compound and small adjacent lot sold our from under it, and turned into a Costco and a "park" that's mostly full of drug addicts and dog poo.

In exchange we got an underground parking lot built for us where the gate is too low for a LUVW except for a tiny slice on one end where the ramp gives us enough room.

Now our POL and TAPV's can't be stored on site and what we do have in terms of parking for our vehicles is barely suitable.

Oh, and if there's a concert, hockey game, football game, soccer game or other such event the troops get to pay $25 to park on a parade night.


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Dec 2021)

RedFive said:


> The Beatty Street Drill Hall had its vehicle compound and small adjacent lot sold our from under it, and turned into a Costco and a "park" that's mostly full of drug addicts and dog poo.
> 
> In exchange we got an underground parking lot built for us where the gate is too low for a LUVW except for a tiny slice on one end where the ramp gives us enough room.
> 
> ...


That was an utterly shit deal and anyone with half a brain could see the problems, but no one important seemed to care.


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## OceanBonfire (24 Feb 2022)

> The second phase of Armoury upgrades will feature green efficiency improvements, interior structural renovations and support work to the remaining outside stone walls.
> 
> In an email to CTV News, the Department of National Defence confirmed the cost of renovations has ballooned to more than $160 million, which is roughly $30 million over budget.
> 
> ...











						Major upgrades near completion for historic Halifax Armoury
					

The Halifax Armoury has been a towering presence in the city since the late 19th Century. Historian Ken Hynes says, with its Romanesque architecture, the armoury is a throwback to an era when Nova Scotia was a major military player in the British Empire.




					atlantic.ctvnews.ca


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## ueo (25 Feb 2022)

The London site was not achieved without much gnashing of teeth on the part of locals, histerical societies and the old guard militia. Delta perervered and what exists seems to blend all elements beautifully and has become one of the most respected buildings in the downtown. Have attended events or stayed there on many occasions. Sunday brunch was well above average ond usually booked solid. Post covid, don't know. Spin benefits to DND are not known.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Feb 2022)

RedFive said:


> The Beatty Street Drill Hall had its vehicle compound and small adjacent lot sold our from under it, and turned into a Costco and a "park" that's mostly full of drug addicts and dog poo.
> 
> In exchange we got an underground parking lot built for us where the gate is too low for a LUVW except for a tiny slice on one end where the ramp gives us enough room.
> 
> ...



Why they don't move the BCRs into the 'Hoffmeister Hotel' is beyond me. There seems to be ample room for vehicles and troops there.

In the meantime, Beatty Street would make a great venue for scary movies. Or the 'BC Armoured Vehicles Museum'. Or both


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## RedFive (25 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Why they don't move the BCRs into the 'Hoffmeister Hotel' is beyond me. There seems to be ample room for vehicles and troops there.
> 
> In the meantime, Beatty Street would make a great venue for scary movies. Or the 'BC Armoured Vehicles Museum'. Or both


Or even better, a facility in the Fraser Valley (Surrey or Langley would be ideal) with both classroom and vehicle hanger space to actually conduct meaningful training with access to a pool of recruits that doesn't exist in the downtown core.

But as a BCR, I can admit that would be incredibly beneficial to the unit and still refuse to give up our home. Can't have our cake and eat it too.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Feb 2022)

RedFive said:


> Or even better, a facility in the Fraser Valley (Surrey or Langley would be ideal) with both classroom and vehicle hanger space to actually conduct meaningful training with access to a pool of recruits that doesn't exist in the downtown core.
> 
> But as a BCR, I can admit that would be incredibly beneficial to the unit and still refuse to give up our home. Can't have our cake and eat it too.



Lots of BCRs live out that way.

Like this guy:









						The Honourable Harjit S. Sajjan
					

Minister of International Development and Minister responsible for the Pacific Economic Development Agency of Canada




					pm.gc.ca


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## NavyShooter (25 Feb 2022)

I can't wait for us to get kicked out of this building so that the rest of the renovations can get underway.  Parts of the building haven't been used in years, and are almost certainly unsafe.  The front of it sure looks nice though.


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## RedFive (25 Feb 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Lots of BCRs live out that way.
> 
> Like this guy:
> 
> ...


I would argue most, but I can't say that for sure. Would certainly help recruiting and retention not to pay $25 for parking about half of the training nights in a year and no viable parking for weekend exercises.


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