# Crossfit & the CF



## nuttman

I've searched the forum & I know Crossfit (www.crossfit.com) has been mentioned before, but I thought it role (and adoption) in the CF hasn't been breached yet (plus I was hoping to spark more disscusion on the topic ).

Brief history: I'm currently in the recruiting process and hope to be join the CF in the next few months. I've always been fit & athletic but wanted to step it up so that I can be as fit as possible when I reach the CF, thus I discovered Crossfit. I've been Crossfit training in Vancouver (www.crossfit.ca) for 2 months now & have seen a dramatic increase in my physical fitness (i'm getting serious core & upper body strength now) & even my diet & general well-being. I hoping that everyone reading this knows about what Crossfit can do (otherwise follow the links), it is *the elite strength & fitness regime*. I also encourage everyone to go down to a Crossfit gym (Vancouver www.crossfit.ca, Edmonton (just opening) www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/4680/18441.html, Ottawa (just opening) www.capitalcrossfit.com, Toronto www.crossfitto.com, thats all i know of now), talk to a trainer, do a workout, see how you compare against them, I garrenttee you'll be surprised!!

I know that as far back as 1 year ago 2 members of the CF were certifed as Crossfit trainers (have no idea where they were from though?).  My question is this, does the Canadian Forces recognize Crossfit?  Do they utilize it in their current training programs?  When I join the Forces will I have to make due with inefficient training regimes?  Do they even have the equipement (for example, kettlebells, which seem pretty rare in the 'typical' gyms)?  Am I going to get in trouble if I make due & utilize the equipment in order to do crossfit workouts? (Seems like a dumb question, but yes it has happened in 'typical' gyms to myself as well as others)

Please, I really want to hear comments from current serving members & other self-described fitness guru's who have direct experience with this!  (And others too, I'm not trying to be encourage exclusivity!)

Thanks in advance!


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## Drummy

Hi there Nuttman,

I think you're going to have to wait about 7 years. According to your profile, you are only 9 years old.   ;D

All the best     Drummy


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## nuttman

Yeah uh, that'd be wrong ... But if I was a 7yr old you should be mighty impressed that I could string together such an amazing array of sentences like in my first post.  Maybe the first 7yr old the CF might accept?  ^-^

Anyways, back to the topic at hand ...


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## Mortar guy

Nuttman,

A buddy of mine and another guy at CTC in Gagetown are the certified trainers you refer to. The CF doesn't really 'recognize' CrossFit yet AFAIK but those 2 guys in Gagetown did a trial of a PT program based on CrossFit.

I've never seen a kettlebell in a CF gym but then again I just sub DBs for KB swings and snatches and the like. As for all the other kit you'll need (chin up bar, ropes, C2 rower, olympic bars, dip bars, gravitron machines) most every gym will have that kit. I doubt you'll get in trouble for using equipment to do CrossFit. You might get some strange looks from people in the gym (as I do) but you won't get in trouble.

Hope this helps.

MG


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## nuttman

Cheers, thanks for the info! Its good to hear that at least some people in the CF are using Crossfit. Personally, I don't understand why it isn't the basis of current physical training.  If its good enough for most SWAT teams & other elite professionals such as Navy SEALs (and even maybe JTF2, but thats just a guess), why wouldn't you want all of your soliders following that regime??  (It'd even save money on all the extra equipment that wouldn't be needed)  Anyways, I'm sure they have their reasons... :

Alright, hopefully I can meet up with these 2 guys in Gagetown when I'm there for Basic. I definetly plan on continuing and advancing my training regime, even if I gotta do it the hard way.  And I'll keep an eye out for other crossfiter's, hopefully we can pursuade the other gym monkeys to 'see the light'...


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## q_1966

Crossfit.ca Link doesnt work


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## buzgo

There is going to be another evaluation in May, involving PSP staff down in Gagetown.

DHTC has kettlebells in the gym


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## MdB

There's a CrossFit Montreal due to open in July 2006 (www.crossfitmontreal.ca). Somewhere in South-West/Pointe-Saint-Charles neighborhood.

Nuttman, I refer you to a message from MountainRunner: Army Fitness Booklet and the JTF 2 fitness Booklet. Read the validity document. The numbers are there to show how good the CrossFit training is.

Mortar Guy also talked about CrossFit in Physical Fitness super-thread in Training forum (page 24).


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## MdB

signalsguy said:
			
		

> There is going to be another evaluation in May, involving PSP staff down in Gagetown.



Is it in the same fashion as the validity test they already did? Or there's no connection?


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## nuttman

Brazil_66 said:
			
		

> Crossfit.ca Link doesnt work



The site is down because of technical problems, hopefully be up in the next week.  When it is they've got a bunch of cool videos and such.

Anyways, thats for the info everyone, I don't have a chance now (as I'm just at work here), but I'll read through this evening!


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## The_Falcon

I started doing crossfit around the summer, but didn't really get into it until the end of dec when I bought my own weights and squat cage.  The layout of my gym the layout of my gym really wasn't suited to doing the circuit training involved with some of the crossfist WOD's.  But since the end of dec I have been following the program religously (3 on 1 off), and I can't get enought of it.  My energy is up, my strength is up, my endurance is up, my bodyfat is down, and I can do about 10 pull-ups now compared to like 1 in dec. Crossfit all the way.


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## Tebo

Anyone exposed to Crossfit is more than able to incorporate it into morning PT.  I was on course during the trial in Gagetown and have have employed it to some degree for my Pl Trg PT regime.  If I had a Crossfit qualified Pte who could handle themselves, there would be no problem with them running morning PT sessions or finding a block in the afternoons that worked.  The Crossfit emphasis on functionality and motivational structure of the workouts is the draw.  The cult like devotion it creates in some followers is a little disturbing however.

I say that it would be fantastic for the military to recognize the benefits of the approach and incorporate it into courses etc.  But, like most good training, it falls to the lower levels to take the initiative, seek out the required pers and make thoughtful, effective training occur.  So if you bring any fitness talent to the table, share it with the chain of command and they'll probably be quick to make use of your knowledge.

As an aside, 2 PPCLI has 6 kettle bells and a substantial amount of Olympic Bars.  I am not sure which sports coord is to blame for this over abundance of excellent equipment, but, I imagine they have been adequately punished for doing too good of a job.  They certainly have my thanks.


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## buzgo

MdB said:
			
		

> Is it in the same fashion as the validity test they already did? Or there's no connection?



I believe they are looking for a way to jump people from the Army Fitness program to the JTF2 pre-selection fitness program. Crossfit has pretty immediate gains and might be just the ticket...


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## greenhorn

Anyone wanna give me a quick run down of what "crossfit" is?


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## Gunner

greenhorn said:
			
		

> Anyone wanna give me a quick run down of what "crossfit" is?





> What is CrossFit?
> CrossFit is the principal strength and conditioning program for many police academies and tactical operations teams, military special operations units, champion martial artists, and hundreds of other elite and professional athletes worldwide.
> 
> Our program delivers a fitness that is, by design, broad, general, and inclusive. Our specialty is not specializing. Combat, survival, many sports, and life reward this kind of fitness and, on average, punish the specialist.
> 
> The CrossFit program is designed for universal scalability making it the perfect application for any committed individual regardless of experience. We’ve used our same routines for elderly individuals with heart disease and cage fighters one month out from televised bouts. We scale load and intensity; we don’t change programs.
> 
> The needs of Olympic athletes and our grandparents differ by degree not kind. Our terrorist hunters, skiers, mountain bike riders and housewives have found their best fitness from the same regimen.
> 
> Thousands of athletes worldwide have followed our workouts posted daily on this site and distinguished themselves in combat, the streets, the ring, stadiums, gyms and homes.
> 
> We also publish the CrossFit Journal designed to support the CrossFit community detailing the theory, techniques, and practice used by our coaches in our gym, in essence bringing your garage or gym into ours, making you a part of the CrossFit family.
> 
> We offer seminars, trainer certifications, and training and regularly provide consultation services to athletic teams, coaches, and police and military agencies throughout the free world.



The first post of the thread has the link.


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## greenhorn

duh!!  Thank you


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## hockeysgal

I was also part of the "Guinea pig" platoon last summer at CTC Gagetown when they tried the crossfit program.  Although I think it's a great program it is very time consuming (especially when done with a 40-50 man platoon) and requires equipment for all pers doing the training.  This caused somewhat of a problem when we did morning PT, such as one morning our PT lasted 2 hours, which pretty much screwed up the rest of the days training.  Plus because we do not always do morning PT on course, as we are often in the field, I'm not sure it would have the intended effect.  
Just my 0.02$

Inf Off


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## The_Falcon

infantry officer said:
			
		

> I was also part of the "Guinea pig" platoon last summer at CTC Gagetown when they tried the crossfit program.  Although I think it's a great program it is very time consuming (especially when done with a 40-50 man platoon) and requires equipment for all pers doing the training.  This caused somewhat of a problem when we did morning PT, such as one morning our PT lasted 2 hours, which pretty much screwed up the rest of the days training.  Plus because we do not always do morning PT on course, as we are often in the field, I'm not sure it would have the intended effect.
> Just my 0.02$
> 
> Inf Off



for large group training it may be inefficent and time consuming if you resources are limited, but for use as an individual PT program, crossfit is by far one of the best programs out there.


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## nuttman

Hi all,

I wanted to thank you all for your replys. I'm enthused to hear that there is more than a few CF members that enjoy & reap the benefits of Crossfit training.

Signalsguy - 
Glad to hear that there's another evalutaion upcoming. The results from the last evaluation look encouraging, though not totally drastic results improvement. I think the true benefits of a Crossfit workout come from its adaptability, emphasis on healthy training techniques, & efficient use of time.  I'd really like to see it incorporated more into the CF (but please note that I'm niether in the CF (yet) or a Crossfit trainer, just an educated guesser)

Tebo - 
The "cult like devotion" you refer to stems from the (sometimes) life changing personal result people have achieved & the fact that it is human nature for people to talk about & recommend what they like.  The negative connatations that come from calling it a "cult like devotion" are unnecessay & not relevant, any Crossfit trainer would be the first to tell you about the emphasis to not get stuck doing one system/training regime/activity that is unhealthy & the benefits of trying new things. 

But when i do become a part of the CF I'd love to share my fitness knowledge with whomever involved, at least to motivate the people around me to perform better. As well its nice to hear that there is some equipment to be had at various bases & I won't be a lone wolf doing this.

Inf Off - 
I'm surprised to hear that the Crossfit PT lasted for 2hrs?! During all of my training the maximum daily workout lasts me 1hr, including 15mins warm-up & a typical Crossfit WOD (Workout-Of-the-Day). Overtraining that can result from a 2hr workout leads to increased burnout & injuries, but that depends on what occurs during the 2hr workout. 

I agree with Hachet Man, it does seem that large group training & Crossfit do not mesh that great, but what about breaking the large group up into smaller groups for various parts of the PT.  For example you could have the large group warmup together, then break into smaller groups for the skills development part of the PT, then bring them back together for a WOD (to take advantage of the competitiveness factor). Just an idea?

I guess it would depend what you mean by "in the field", but most of the Crossfit movements can be done by substituting whatever weighted objects are nearby & some workouts (ex: Cindy, 1 round = 5 pullups 10 pushups 15 sqauts, as many rounds in 20mins) do not even involved the use any weights.  That is an appeal of it, that you can adapt to use whatever equipment is at hand & still be confident that your accomplishing a sufficiently challenging PT.

...

I've recently learned about Colin Laverty who is a current CF member (correct me if i'm wrong) and who is starting a Crossfit gym in Ottawa (www.capitalcrossfit.com).  Sounds like he'd be a great resource if anyone is interested in more info about crossfit applications in your CF career.


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## nuttman

Another piece of information just came my way ... I hear that the CF (apparently a Colonel) has just signed an agreement with Crossfit (probably Greg Glassman, he's the main dude in Santa Cruz) to have Crossfit as their main PT program.   Does anyone know any more about this?


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## The_Falcon

nuttman said:
			
		

> Another piece of information just came my way ... I hear that the CF (apparently a Colonel) has just signed an agreement with Crossfit (probably Greg Glassman, he's the main dude in Santa Cruz) to have Crossfit as their main PT program.   Does anyone know any more about this?



Sounds like an unsubstansiated rumour.  Where does this Colonel work? And for Whom?  Those  are my two big questions.  More info (like your source) would be appreciated.


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## nuttman

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Sounds like an unsubstansiated rumour.  Where does this Colonel work? And for Whom?  Those  are my two big questions.  More info (like your source) would be appreciated.



Its a bit more substantial than a rumor.  I heard it from someone i'd consider a reliable source that is close to the main Crossfit organization.  Unfortunatly, thats all the info I know now.  But hey, don't take my word for it, I'm sure if it is true it'll begin filtering through the ranks soon, and maybe there could have been a chance that its just stupid drunk talk (but personally i doubt it).


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## COBRA-6

After spending all that money on the Army Fitness Manual it seems somewhat unlikely, but who knows... watch and shoot... maybe they'll have a CF Crossfit DIN site that posts the PT routine of the day??  ;D


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## George Wallace

nuttman said:
			
		

> Its a bit more substantial than a rumor.  I heard it from someone i'd consider a reliable source that is close to the main Crossfit organization.  Unfortunatly, thats all the info I know now.  But hey, don't take my word for it, I'm sure if it is true it'll begin filtering through the ranks soon, and maybe there could have been a chance that its just stupid drunk talk (but personally i doubt it).



I must say that your opinion that this is "more substantial than a rumour" is just that; your opinion.  It would seem to most others, to be just a rumour and only a rumour.  You are a civilian (from your blank Profile) in Vancouver, and well removed from the people making decisions regarding CF policies in NDHQ.   Therefore, we must take your opinion with a grain of salt.


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## Patrolman

I was at the gym today in Gagetown and noticed that there was a Cross Fit seminar going on . After talking with one of the PSP staff I found out the following. Cross Fit sent people from the U.S. here for three days of seminars. I asked if anyone could attend but,unfortunately the answer was no. Apparently military personnel were selected from across Canada to attend. PSP staff were among them as well learning about it so as to incorporate it into their training regimes. I look forward to trying it sometime.


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## buzgo

There hasn't been an agreement signed between the CF and Crossfit, but as mentioned above - there is stuff happening in Gagetown right now, and its even posted on the Crossfit website so maybe they were talking about some formal contract with CTC. They are 'training the trainers' and there are also PSP people evaluating Crossfit to see if it can be integrated into Army fitness, or used in some other way. I have a very good source on the inside, and she went into the course as a skeptic, and seems to be changing her mind  ;D


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## MdB

signalsguy said:
			
		

> They are 'training the trainers' and there are also PSP people evaluating Crossfit to see if it can be integrated into Army fitness, or used in some other way.



I would say: "to see *how* it can be integrated into Army fitness".  



			
				signalsguy said:
			
		

> she went into the course as a skeptic, and seems to be changing her mind  ;D



+1 ;D


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## paracowboy

I dig Crossfit. especially it's value for strengthening the abdominal girdle, or core.
But, it's not the be-all and end-all for PT in the CF, IMO. 

It doesn't address power training. That can only be obtained by lifting heavy (HEAVY) things up. For power, you need power lifting. I became aware of the need for power training when I got caught up in a small riot in Bosnia, and had to batter my way through to get some troops out of it. Without the strength to throw those skinny li'l Croats around, I wouldn't have succeeded.

It doesn't develop comradery. That can only be developed by playing team sports, or going through Obstacle courses as a unit. By practicing teamwork in sports, we better learn to implement teamwork on the battlefield. And, as we all know, teamwork is the basis of what we do. And what we are.

It doesn't develop the warrior mindset. That comes from Hand-to-Gland trainng, martial arts, and aggressive sports like hockey and rugby. Soldiers need to develop that aggresive mentality.

It doesn't do squat to prepare you for humpin' a ruck. Only way to do that is by humpin' a ruck.

So, I feel it is an important tool in the box, but no more than that. It's part of a complete PT program, but not a complete program in and of itself.

Although it beats the heck out of going for a run 4 days a week, with a ruck march to break the monotony.


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## Mortar guy

Paracowboy,

I'm not too sure why you are saying that CF doesn't develop power training. I had already explained this before on another thread but just for the sake of everyone reading this thread, I would encourage people to read this:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23364/post-301254.html#msg301254

I just got back from HLTA and am a little jet lagged but you'll see in that thread that I explained why and how CrossFit does build power.

I agree with you that it is not the end all and be all for military PT. I especially agree with you about cameraderie, teamwork and agression. For me, right now, I do PT on my own so it's ideal for me. Cheers!

MG


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## The_Falcon

paracowboy said:
			
		

> It doesn't address power training. That can only be obtained by lifting heavy (HEAVY) things up. For power, you need power lifting.



Umm, the majority of the WODs are some form of powerlifting.


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## paracowboy

I do a lot of Crossfit workouts, and every one I've found builds mucular endurance, but not true power. For that, you need to lift very heavy weights, for only a couple of reps, and only a couple of sets. Putting a ridiculous amount of weight on a bar and squatting it, for instance. But it should be such an amount of weight that you can only perform the movement about 3 times. 

Every Crossfit workout I've seen involves doing a movement 10, 12, 15 times, or more. That is not power training. Doing a movement 2 - 3 times with 90% of your max weight is power training.That's what I'm saying. Maybe I've just not seen those workouts?

That's why I feel every troop should cycle their training around, including pure cardio, pure power training, muscular strength/endurance training (Crossfit being ideal for this), and throwing sports and 'combative' sports in the mix for fun and the above training benefits. Rucksack marching must be done every week, at least once.


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## Patrolman

Army News was at the gym in Gagetown today filming the Cross Fit seminar. We will probably see the segment soon. It will be interesting to see what kind of info they will have about it being implemented into CF.


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## The_Falcon

The "power" workouts are the ones that just say squat 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 or clean 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 something like that.  If you notice those particular workouts are never "for time", its all about how much weight you can do.  So if it takes you 5 minutes between sets, then it takes 5 minutes between sets.  While they are not "pure" power lifting workouts like you describe (2-3 reps in total), they are pretty darn close.  Remember the whole idea behind Crossfit is to excel in many areas of human performance not just 1 or 2. That said there is nothing to stop a person from adding to their workouts if they desire (I do all the time), you just have to make sure you are getting enough rest days.


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## paracowboy

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Remember the whole idea behind Crossfit is to excel in many areas of human performance not just 1 or 2.


as is my goal, which is why I advocate doing more than just Crossfit.

I don't say it's useless. It is an excellent part of a soldier's complete workout regimen, but not the be-all and end-all. It doesn't address everything a soldier should be prepared to do, as I contended above.

So, in the spirit of Crossfit, as you state "to excel in many areas of human performance not just 1 or 2", I argue that soldiers should *incorporate* Crossfit into their exercise scheme, but not be totally *reliant* on it. It's just another weapon in the arsenal. 

edited because I forgot the word "not". Kinda changes my meaning around. By the way, Al makes a good series of points below. Read his post.


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## ZipperHead

I have been doing some Crossfit workouts as part of my exercise program for about 5 months now, and initally I was pretty impressed to hear that the CF was looking at implementing Crossfit into the "official" fitness program. Prior to starting with Crossfit, I had been following the AFM workouts (for about 3 months), and arguably, if you are following that program, it's not a huge leap to implement Crossfit. 

This is where I see a problem: I can see people being "forced" into adopting Crossfit before they are ready for it. By this I mean that I have seen very few people (and/or units) following the AFM PT regimen as it is meant to be followed (i.e one of the various week-based programs). Proof of this: I have seen very few (as a relative percentage of the people that I see working out at the Gagetown fitness facility) people doing the plyometric exercises. I have had people outright stare at me when I was doing the hopping from foot to foot down the indoor track, as though I had just made up some funky exercises. It's in the AF Manual, people!!!! To me, it appears to be the same old, same old: run, play ball-hockey, ruckmarch, and move some weights around, without an apparent plan. And to top it all off, none of the basic fitness principles seem to be being applied for improvement (increase duration/intensity/weight/reps, variety, etc). It's as though many people don't read the manual (which, BTW, I think is excellent, even though I was skeptical when I found out who one of the pers involved in the writing of it was.... a blast from my past, so to speak), let alone follow it. Why? Because it involves planning and catering programs to individual needs. Yes, I said it!! INDIVIDUAL needs. Not the whole unit. The individual. And we all know that soldier's are mindless drones who can't be trusted to follow, let alone plan, their own exercise prescription (which I initially hated as a term, but it makes sense: it is a prescription, the same as a medication. Not everybody is given penicillin when one person has an infection. Not everyone should have to try to run the Boston Marathon, bench press a car, do 50 one-arm chin-ups, etc). 

It's all pretty simple: do the 9 tests. Find out what you need to work on (achieving only level 1 or 2 in something, in other words), and focus on those specific areas, without neglecting those that you did well on. We have to stop practicing/focussing on our strengths (runners always running, gym rats only pumping iron, jocks only playing sports, etc) and focus on our areas for development (that's sounds vaguely familiar....). In other words, CROSS-train to achieve FITness. CROSSFIT. Wow, I should copyright that. Oh, yeah. Already done.

And then, once a soldier is ready, and needs a greater challenge (achieving level 3 or better across the board, IMO) move on to Crossfit if they are inclined. People seem to forget (or ignore) that Crossfit is targeted at people who are looking for an "elite" level of fitness (but it isn't limited to elite athletes). Arguably soldiers should be elite (or at the least, strive for that) in all respects, but fitness is definitely part of it. 

I have noticed about half a dozen people here in Gagetown doing Crossfit, and yes, I was one of the ones looking at them funny when I first saw them doing the kettle bell swing, or jumping up onto the 24inch high box. My first impression was: Retro trend, which will die off. For those not in the know here's a link for the exercise videos (look for kettle bell swing, and you may figure out what I mean by retro): http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

I am now one of the ones getting stared at (particularly by those that simply (and very slowly, I might add) walk idly around the track). I also do a lot of running (up to 21km at a go..... not fast, just long), stretching (very important, in my books, as I neglected it in my youth), and other forms of non-traditional things like head- and hand-stands (kind of a yoga thing, but it also improves balance, and it helps with handstand push-ups). Doing what we have always done (usually too much of whatever is easiest and most convenient) has gotten us to where we are: we need to make changes, or suffer the consequences. Oh yeah, that's already happened.

Which segues nicely into my next concern: the CF (or certain units) will fall head over heels in love with Crossfit, and want to abandon everything else. This would be bad. Even though Crossfit is pretty basic, without a need for fancy-schmancy multi-thousand dollar equipment, I can't see 50 people (i.e a recruit or the like course) doing Crossfit effectively, if it is done as we have in the past: everyone does warmup together, work out together, finish as a team. Unless I am on glue, I can't fathom that happening with most of the "named" workouts (look through the Workout of the Day (WOD) pages, due to the fact that it is mostly GO, GO, GO throughout, and waiting for someone to be done with something defeats the purpose of Crossfit. Then it is basically circuit training (which CF really is, at heart). We would have to re-examine our idea of what constitutes "unit" PT. Would we allow people to determine what "prescription" they need, make a plan, and then follow it??? I do it, but I have the luxury of doing that (rank and position), and I have noticed that every other person in Gagetown who is doing Crossfit (or something similar) is a Sr NCO or officer. Hmmmmmm. Maybe we should stop holding people by the hand (i.e. Pte's/Cpl's/MCpl's) and let them plan (with PSP staff assistance if required) and follow their progress from a distance (i.e. take their word that they are following the plan, and follow-up with testing results after a set period). That's pretty innovative. Actually it's not. They do something similar for those on remedial PT, don't they? Why wait until they are at that stage (needing remedial PT) and let them plan/follow their own PT program.

Of course, there are aspects that must be group-style (sports and ruckmarches), but even then there should be a certain amount of latitude to allow tailoring to different soldier's needs/capabilities. This type of mentality/attitude/culture change likely causes some people to blow a nut just thinking about allowing people to do something other than the same old, same old (I think we all know what type of people I mean by this.....). Letting grown ups act like grown ups. What a concept. 

If there are pers who can't/won't plan or follow their own program, punish them, not those that actually want to do what works for them (i.e. continuing with what I refer to as Lowest Common Denominator PT: running only as fast or long as the slowest person can handle, and the like). 

All of this would only work post-Basic training, I can imagine, as recruits will require far more direction and guidance (obviously), but let's remember that in a 25 year (let's say that's the average career) career, Basic trg only comprises approx 6 months, or 2%, of a soldier's career: let's focus on the other 98%.

I do hope that Crossfit is "approved" for use in the CF (well, I've been doing it, and haven't been jailed yet, and there aren't any exercises that I have seen that are "dangerous" (following strict form, of course), so I don't know why it wouldn't be "legal"), but it isn't the 100% solution, anyway, as paracowboy points out. In fact, if you read the CF FAQ, it points out that: 





> Part of the crossfit philosophy includes pursuing/learning another sport or activity, and many crossfitters are also martial artists and competitive athletes in a variety of disciplines.


 BTW, I highly recommend reading the FAQ and the Start Here! page before starting with Crossfit (that and view the exercise videos to ensure correct form is used). 

Al

Editted for stunned-ass spelling/grammar errors.


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## The_Falcon

Excellent post.  I think this is the one time I am glad I am in the mo, I can plan/excute my own pt progam without being sucked into time wasting group pt that sinks to the lowest common denominator, which basically screws everyone else out of decent workout. (save the debate for reserve compensation etc. for the other threads on that subject.)


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## MdB

> Part of the crossfit philosophy includes pursuing/learning another sport or activity, and many crossfitters are also martial artists and competitive athletes in a variety of disciplines.



There you have it. CrossFit isn't be-all and end-all. The thing is that it won't replace a certain type of activity (hear ruckmarching) or a sport. Conversely, sports or specific activity will complete the broad, general, core training that CrossFit brings.

I also don't think they should scrap AFM and adopt CrossFit, but integrate it to military PT as Allan so clearly explained. The beautiful thing with CrossFit is that it is *scalable* (meaning that any fitness-level person can do it) and that it has a great *customization* potential. You can work it out at your pace and improving your weaknesses by adapting it to what you need or want. So you can focus on power lifting, or stretching, or endurance by adding specific workouts along the WODs and the sport(s) you practice.


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## plattypuss

Some interesting discussion on Crossfit.  As I just finished the CrossFit seminar in Gagetown, I can add something useful to the discussion.  First of all the 3 day seminar was to allow us to be CrossFit level one coaches - There is, I believe at least 3, possibly four levels of coaching.  You will find that the Army Fitness Manual is being re-written to add a CrossFit Annex, when that is to be released - I don't know hopefully relative soon.  The Infantry School is perhaps the biggest supporter of the CrossFit fitness system in the CF right now and according to one of the coaches at the seminar, the CF is the "envy" of many other nations in terms of official "recognition" of the CrossFit system (ie adding the Annex to the AFM).  Powerlifting and gymnastics are part of the "founding" pillars of CrossFit, which can be seen when and if you review the CrossFit exercise.  Some of the basic lifts we learned are all based on Olympic Lifting - Deadlifts, Squats, Cleans, Clean and Jerks etc.  There are a couple of issues of the CrossFit journal - which you have to subscribe to - which have described how you can make the CrossFit workouts a "team" workout.  In terms of teaching cohesion the coaches used a quote which indicated that cohesion is a result of sharing "agony and joy" - once you have completed a CrossFit workout you will know that CrossFit doles out equal parts of both. CrossFit probably will not be adopted at lower levels of military trg - because the realistic achievement of the skills involved in doing the Olympic lifts correctly - probably will not be achieved in the time required.  It is better suited for individual workouts because part of what drives the CrossFit system is the competition.  You want to get a better score/time than the guy or gal next to you and not finish last, scores are usually posted to ensure that everyone knows how you did - believe me that is motivation to push hard. 

I like Al's points indicated above - perhaps level 3 would be a good stepping stone to CrossFit for the CF. Al do you want a copy of last year's CrossFit material - I got the latest one last week and have a copy of the old one (its missing 5-6 journals)
For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.


----------



## The_Falcon

plattypuss said:
			
		

> Some interesting discussion on Crossfit.  As I just finished the CrossFit seminar in Gagetown, I can add something useful to the discussion.  First of all the 3 day seminar was to allow us to be CrossFit level one coaches - There is, I believe at least 3, possibly four levels of coaching.  You will find that the Army Fitness Manual is being re-written to add a CrossFit Annex, when that is to be released - I don't know hopefully relative soon.  The Infantry School is perhaps the biggest supporter of the CrossFit fitness system in the CF right now and according to one of the coaches at the seminar, the CF is the "envy" of many other nations in terms of official "recognition" of the CrossFit system (ie adding the Annex to the AFM).  Powerlifting and gymnastics are part of the "founding" pillars of CrossFit, which can be seen when and if you review the CrossFit exercise.  Some of the basic lifts we learned are all based on Olympic Lifting - Deadlifts, Squats, Cleans, Clean and Jerks etc.  There are a couple of issues of the CrossFit journal - which you have to subscribe to - which have described how you can make the CrossFit workouts a "team" workout.  In terms of teaching cohesion the coaches used a quote which indicated that cohesion is a result of sharing "agony and joy" - once you have completed a CrossFit workout you will know that CrossFit doles out equal parts of both. CrossFit probably will not be adopted at lower levels of military trg - because the realistic achievement of the skills involved in doing the Olympic lifts correctly - probably will not be achieved in the time required.  It is better suited for individual workouts because part of what drives the CrossFit system is the competition.  You want to get a better score/time than the guy or gal next to you and not finish last, scores are usually posted to ensure that everyone knows how you did - believe me that is motivation to push hard.
> 
> I like Al's points indicated above - perhaps level 3 would be a good stepping stone to CrossFit for the CF. Al do you want a copy of last year's CrossFit material - I got the latest one last week and have a copy of the old one (its missing 5-6 journals)
> For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.



Thanks for the info, especially that last bit 


> For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.


right there that some people (not necessarily here, but say the New York Times, and others) have not understood/realized ands thats why people get hurt.  They don't read all info that on the site, particularly the aptly named section  "Getting Started", where in the 5th paragraph it explicitly says that the WOD's will tax even high level athletes, and that everyone should start off completing the workouts comfortably and consitently before you ramp up the intensity to 100%.


----------



## MdB

plattypuss said:
			
		

> For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.



Yeah, it's not obvious until you read the FAQ. Kinda freaky at first sight.

As to some suggestion on scalable WODs, go see the Brand X Martial Arts CrossFit WOD forum. Very useful.


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## buzgo

Well, since my 'inside source' got back from the seminar, we have decided to build a home CrossFit gym in our garage/yard... She has been teaching/critiquing me and I've been reading the CrossFit journal package that was given out. There is a huge wealth of information and if you have the opportunity to go over the back issues, take it! Once I am confident with what I am doing, I am going to start teaching guys at work how to do the workouts - I can easily see applications for group PT, especially in the environment I work in.

Regarding some of the lifts, and starting out easy - I would recommend trying it with a broom handle or dowel. Believe me, they are tough when done properly.


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## MdB

The Maple Leaf • 7 June 2006

Crossing the boundaries of fitness, by Sgt Kyle Richards.



> CFB GAGETOWN, N. B. — Thirty-two students participated in a three-day Crossfit Certification Seminar at CFB Gagetown. The students were under the direction of Coach Greg Glassman, the founder of the Crossfit training system.
> 
> The certification program will allow the students to facilitate the basic concepts of the Crossfit program throughout the Combat Training Centre (CTC).
> 
> As part of a program to support the Chief of the Defence Staff’s directive to increase the level of physical fitness throughout the military, the CTC has been supporting an Infantry School initiative to enhance the Army Fitness Manual (AFM). A trial of the Crossfit program was conducted in 2005, and after a measure of positive results, the Infantry School met with national (Personnel Support Programs) staff to start implementing an Army operational fitness program based on the theories and practices of Crossfit into the AFM.
> 
> Crossfit is a concept that utilizes functional movements, performing them in a varied fashion and at a high intensity. These concepts have been gaining a large following among military and law enforcement personnel. The program’s popularity is mainly due to the applicability of the program in a combat environment.
> 
> “What separates this style of training to conventional running or weightlifting is that the stimulus is better, and I think that it is a better match to the demands of warfighting, survival, life, and sports.
> 
> We get a result that is frankly unparallel to more conventional methods,” said Mr. Glassman.
> 
> “We started in the classroom learning the 10 different components of fitness and then the staff conducted practical training with us, basically teaching us how to use techniques such as balance, agility, speed, power, and all aspects of fitness,” said Bombardier Rhonda Evans.
> 
> The movements you find within the program mimic the same movements that you can find on any job site or on the battlefield, including lifting, pushing, jumping, throwing, punching, and climbing.
> 
> For more information on the Crossfit program you can access the Web site at www.crossfit.com. Points of contact are Captain J.T. Williams, chief standards officer, Infantry School Williams.JT@forces.gc.ca or Capt Jeff Bird, Infantry Corps Technical Adjutant Birde.JM@forces.gc.ca .


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## buzgo

Is anyone involved in the upcoming CrossFit certification seminar at 3 VP?



> August 21st - 25th
> CrossFit Certification Seminar
> 3d BN, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada



www.crossfit.com - its on the front page, right side under upcoming crossfit events.


----------



## The_Falcon

Nice to see 3 VP taking the initiative.


----------



## paracowboy

the Adj, as I recall, is taking the lead on this. We're building some stuff in the Sim Room for Crossfit, as well. Peg boards, etc.


----------



## buzgo

I'm curious to see what people think about it after being formally trained. A lot of the exercises require good technique, and you can only develop it with training. Are you on the course paracowboy? I'm curious to hear about how they implement the program within the BN once the trainers are qual'd.


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## paracowboy

nope. No good for my personal situation. 
I see it being incorporated like everything else we do. Instructors trained up, and it's another option for platoons to use in the morning, like the weight room, going for a run, or doin' a ruckmarch. They'll have to book the room a few days prior for the days they choose to do a Crossfit workout. No big change, really. It's not that different from standard cross-training to begin with.


----------



## buzgo

The olympic weightlifting stuff is really dangerous if you jump into without instruction. People trying to overhead squat 90 lbs or deadlift their bodyweight without working up to it...


----------



## The_Falcon

signalsguy said:
			
		

> The olympic weightlifting stuff is really dangerous if you jump into without instruction. People trying to overhead squat 90 lbs or deadlift their bodyweight without working up to it...



Just to note ANY time your are moving around free weights (and even when you use machines) without proper instruction/spoters you risk hurting yourself (and others in some cases). Olympic lifts are pretty high on the injury scale, but there are other exercises that are known to cause serious injuries for example, leg press/squat machines, pec decks, french curls (aka skull crushers aptly named for an obvious reason.) machines that work your lower back, any kind of exercise involving free weights and an overhead press. I could keep going but you get my point.


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## MdB

CF News reporting on Crossfit seminar at Gagetown: Army fitness program envied by other nations.


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## plattypuss

One of the hiccups that they alluded too at the seminar in the adoption of Crossfit within other armies was the fact that the leadership especially in certain American units was afraid to do such a "rigorous" form of PT in front of their troops. They could not stop praising the fact that on our particular course, one of the students was a Cmdt of a School, willing to fail, sweat and suck wind with the rest of us.  Because of the leadership's unwillingness to try or participate in the PT, alot of the other nations' soldiers who do this form of PT - do it on their own, I suppose you could say "unofficially" and Crossfit has not been recognized as a legitimate form of PT - as it will be in our Army, if and when the new Crossfit Annex comes out for the AFM.  They liked the AFM additionally because it incorporates a  number of exercises that the traditional crossfit workouts encompass.


----------



## ZipperHead

plattypuss said:
			
		

> One of the hiccups that they alluded too at the seminar in the adoption of Crossfit within other armies was the fact that the leadership especially in certain American units was afraid to do such a "rigorous" form of PT in front of their troops. They could not stop praising the fact that on our particular course, one of the students was a Cmdt of a School, willing to fail, sweat and suck wind with the rest of us.  Because of the leadership's unwillingness to try or participate in the PT, alot of the other nations' soldiers who do this form of PT - do it on their own, I suppose you could say "unofficially" and Crossfit has not been recognized as a legitimate form of PT - as it will be in our Army, if and when the new Crossfit Annex comes out for the AFM.  They liked the AFM additionally because it incorporates a  number of exercises that the traditional crossfit workouts encompass.



Although I agree that it was good that there was a Comdt of a School taking the training, and there are many senior CF personnel who would be able to do CrossFit (I could see the CDS and many of the "Hillier Youth" doing CrossFit), there are too many (senior pers) who fear the change that XFit would bring (to them personally): no more leisurely walks around the track, reading a magazine whilst idly pedalling away on the exercycle, the ubiquitous crawl of a run, or even worse - not doing PT at all. The whole leading by example thing would not sit well when it comes to CrossFit with those types.

I am very glad that CrossFit is being adopted (and in a hurry, in comparison to how fast many other things are adopted). My fear is that people won't "get it", and will point to the inevitable injury from somebody going too fast/heavy/hard too soon, and will paint the CrossFit revolution as gobbledy-gook. I also think that too many people won't be willing to devote the time and energy to adopt the lifestyle and mentality that XFit demands and encourages: it will take a long time, and a lot of work, to reach the elite level that XFit strives  for, and in this day and age of people wanting instant results and quick fixes for any weaknesses they have, many people will be quick to drop the program when they realize that they will have to come to near literally puking to get the results that XFit can give. That's fine with me: less people to hog the chin-up bars and plyo boxes  ;D. I have been doing CrossFit (somewhat half-assed admittedly...... Plattypus was kind enough to give me the CrossFit Journals he had back a few months ago, and WOW!!!: get thee a subscription to the CFJ if you don't have access to somebody else's copies. For anybody at CTC, PM me or email me (Luomala.AE AT Forces.GC.Ca) and I will point you in the right direction) for better than 6 months, and I would argue that I am in the best shape of my life, and I'm on the wrong side of 30. It definitely works, but you have to be ready to dig deep to get the effect, and be willing to learn a whole new regimen (compared to traditional PT): gymnastics, Olympic lifting, no predictable (i.e 3 sets of 12/8/6 everytime) workouts.

As for when XFit is put in the annex of the AFM: I continue to meet people who don't even know that there is an AFM. We have boxes of them in our Resource Center, and nobody seems to know they exist (in both official languages, I might add). For more exposure maybe they should put it as an insert into the Ombudsman's Handbook that every new soldier seems to have: "These are your rights! Now go out there and abuse them!!!" J/K. I don't know if such a publication exists, but it probably does. Maybe if they put the AFM as a coaster or placesetting in the respective Messes it might get read during Happy Hour.....

BTW, Plattypus, you looked rather dashing in the video clip that MdB posted the link for. You didn't look like you were ready to meet Pukie the Clown, so you couldn't have been givin' er. For shame.....

Al


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## paracowboy

signalsguy said:
			
		

> The olympic weightlifting stuff is really dangerous if you jump into without instruction. People trying to overhead squat 90 lbs or deadlift their bodyweight without working up to it...


that would be Darwin's Law at work. No loss.

What still amuses/amazes me is the number of people that think Crossfit is some revolution in fitness. It's the same stuff that has been promoted for decades in physical fitness. New name is all. But, if it works to get folks off their asses...


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## ZipperHead

paracowboy said:
			
		

> that would be Darwin's Law at work. No loss.
> 
> What still amuses/amazes me is the number of people that think Crossfit is some *revolution in fitness*. It's the same stuff that has been promoted for decades in physical fitness. New name is all. But, if it works to get folks off their asses...



If that was a dig at my use of the word "revolution", fair enough. The reason I use that term is that although there isn't anything new in terms of exercises (although how they are conducted have been given a different spin: the jumping and/or kipping pull-up cause the most amount of looks of scorn and/or disgust from those indoctinated into the rule that exercises have to be done only way to be considered "right"), it is how the workout are done that is "revolutionary". Coach Glassman's methods run contrary to many common exercise regimen's principles. He even advocates Dr Atkin's diet (low carb), which has been subject to much ridicule. I haven't had the discipline to start on the diet full-on, but many of those that I have talked to that have say it is very effective.

I have to admit that when I saw my first taste of CrossFit in action, I smirked. It was a few of the officers from my School out in the shacks in the field, with kettlebell's, and I dismissed it as retro pseudo-exercise. Then I started to see a few more pers in the weight-room on base doing some "wacky" exercises (jumping chin-ups, Olympic lifts with very little weight, plyo-box jumps, and the like) and shook my head, thinking "that ain't no way to get fit". I then shared the seat next to Capt Williams (who has been one of the pers instrumental in getting XFit adopted by the Army) on a flight back from Florida, and we talked about how Xfit works. Anyway, that was last December, and after reading all of the CFJ, I am convinced that while there isn't anything new in terms of exercises, it is a huge shift from the norm of: running 10+ km, trying to bench press a car, doing isolation exercises that mimic nothing realistic in day to day activities (cross-over cable pulldowns.....), 30-90 seconds rest between sets, 90 - 120 min workouts, etc. I still have a hard time pushing out some of the old ways out of my pumpkin when I am planning my workouts, because as everyone knows "more is always better". Or not....

Anyway, it is interesting to see some old school exercises getting taken down from the shelf and dusted off, and this is very helpful for those who want to continue to workout in austere conditions (in the field, on operations, in unit lines, around the house) and not having to be reliant on $10,000+ exercise equipment that only does one thing. No more excuses in other words. That's probably the thing that pisses off the chronically lazy the most: anybody can do it, pretty much anywhere.

Al


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## paracowboy

it isn't a dig at anyone, Al. 
Crossfit advocates the same stuff that reputable fitness folks have been saying for decades. I find it astonishing that people now are just "discovering" these principles, and some are even treating it like some sort of cult.


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## ZipperHead

I think the thing that is refreshing with the whole CrossFit scene is that the information given is free (the only cost is if you subscribe to the Journal's, which are well worth it IMO), and the community is very open and friendly. There are many links to the companies that the CrossFit community recommends, for equipment, videos, books, etc, but there are a lot of links to low tech and/or homemade items (I made parallettes from directions on the XFit forum for about $30, and I am going to make some plyo boxes from directions from the same forum). 

I think that too much of the fitness "advice" that was given was just a means of getting somebody to buy something (some supplement, equipment, clothing, book, etc). It's not unluck diet advice. To me, I think the world's shortest weight loss book would contain the following advice: "Eat less. Exercise more". But not too many people would buy it (something so simple couldn't possibly work), and how can you make any money from such a concept. Hence the watermelon diet, the cabbage soup diet, the Atkin's diet, etc. 

To be honest, the whole CrossFit thing has been the closest to a "religion" or cult that I have experienced (and been part of). I have made a lot of contacts in the various Schools and units here in CTC, with other pers doing the training (or thinking about starting), and we have been exchanging advice/ideas/knowledge. I am quite the cheerleader for the concept, and while, yes, I could have found the same information in any number of (self-serving) books, it is pretty much all distilled into one source at the XFit site, and within the Journals. I'm sure that I will discover things that I don't agree with there, and I would like to think that I won't get "suckered" into some lame-ass purchase in the pursuit of fitness (a big honking Bowflex machine) or some other snake-oil things that the mainstream fitness magazines and books try to hawk as the end-all to getting fit. 

The good thing that I can see coming of Xfit being adopted within the Army is that people will finally be taught how to do exercises properly (assuming units have pers taught via PSP staff or outsiders, such as by the Xfit certification seminars (there is going to be one at 3VP in August, according to the CrossFit.com website), vice the old "monkey-see, money-do" that was common in the weight rooms in the past (throwing weights around versus using strict form and control). 

If it's a cult, I guess I'm part of a cult. At least the goal of this cult is improving my fitness, not promising me salvation via rectal probing by aliens  (and separating me from my cash) 

Al


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## paracowboy

see, that's what I mean. The very same positives you mention in the above post (proper diet, proper form, etc) are what reputable fitness experts having been saying for decades. That's what amazes me: that people are only just now "discovering" them.

It's all good, at least folks are catching on. It's just that I find it mind-boggling that anyone, especially soldiers, was unaware of these basics.

Good on the Crossfit people for finding this niche. They stand to make a substantial profit from it, and hopefully, we'll see a drastic decrease in the alarming levels of obesity in the CF.


----------



## The_Falcon

I was speaking with one of the CSMs from my unit (people who know the 48th can probably easily guess who), has really started getting into Xfit every since the CF started looking into adopting about 2-3 months ago, and he told me he has spoken to our DCO about procuring some equipment (rings, plyoboxes etc) for our unit.  We will see in September how it goes.  I am looking forward to it, cause now I won't be the only person in the unit who know what Xfit is.


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## medic269

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.  I heard about crossfit through some of the medics I worked with here in ottawa, and started using it about 3 months ago, (the whole while having my application for CF) go through.  I had seen how big the community was, but also so spread out, I found there were few people around here familiar with it.  I was pleasantly surprised when I found out that CF might be adopting it as the offcial fitness regime.  I started with the mindset that I'd be doing it to get ready for basic/SQ etc. and be able to go through the fitness aspects with minimal difficulty.  In retrospect it just makes proper sense that it's incorporated in some aspect to the CF.  Fellow Xfitters and I have hads the discussion as to why not more organizations aren't using it more openly and freely.  I know the Ottawa Polic Tactical Team has adopted it as it's unofficial workout. I think alot of it has to do with lack of education and apprehension to take on something so simple.  Fitness science is one of the most controversial subjects I've ever studied.  Everyone has their own theories and everyone is right and wrong in so many different cases.  I guess it's hard to feed through all the nonsense and find what works.  Anyone else want to share their thoughts?


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## plattypuss

Al,

Thanks I only look that good because I didn't want my make-up to smear and I was worried somebody was looking at my purse which I had left in the corner.  I think by the time that video was shot I had already given everything I had to give the two days prior and was merely looking to survive the last day.  By the way, although he advocates the Atkins diet in earlier issues, he predominately talked about the "Zone" diet during the seminar.  I know from personal experience I only lasted about three days on Atkins because I found I had no energy to do any kind of work-out.  On the Zone diet I've dropped about twenty lbs in total (10 of that just prior to the Cabot Trail)

I wonder if its' catching on again (at least in the military) because the functional nature of the exercises relate and possible enhance performance in combat (whether it be in Afghanistan or downtown Ottawa).  This may also relate to the fact that the study of combat has become more of a science and people understand better the relationship physiologically and neurologically between the type of exercises you conduct and how they can (up to a point) prepare you for the rigours of combat.  A traditional body building type workout may result in you looking intimidating (which can be useful in certain combat situations) but may not be the best suited for "light" warfare. Most crossfitters will not intimidate you - except maybe some of the women.

I think that Crossfit and similar workouts have to fight an uphill battle for acceptance because they are hard.  I like to run and it is not hard for me to put on a pair of shoes and go running - there is little mental or physical preparation required. It's easy to set a pace and stick to it.  It was easy for me to put on my shoes and gloves, go downstairs and lift weights.  Once I had figured out what bodypart I wanted to train, there was little mental preparation, I could rest between sets - even when I was doing max lifts and it was relatively easy to do. Crossfit which emphasises a lot of different types of exercises (which has already been discussed) requires some mental and physical preparation most of the time because you know it is going to be hard.  Even now I find myself going on runs somedays (Crossfit true confession) instead of doing one of the posted Crossfit workouts because I know it is going to be hard and I'd rather do something "easy" - which is why you may want to crossfit with a group instead of doing it individually. 

As Al mentioned, this is probably why Crossfit will remain "unofficial" for a lot of organisations because it is hard and some people would probably "feign" injury or stay in a comfortable routine for them (ie running & isolated body building movements) rather than do a "hard" workout.  Many organisations have those who are considered physical icons (ie the guy/gal who is a triathlete, body builder, marathon runner) and they will not want to risk that status doing a work-out which challenges everyone, levels out the playing field a bit and with results that could potentially embarrass them.


----------



## George Wallace

plattypuss said:
			
		

> On the Zone diet I've dropped about twenty lbs in total (10 of that just prior to the Cabot Trail)



I hope that was 20 lbs that you put on since I last saw you, cause if it isn't you must be an awful scrawny little 'runt' now.....        ;D


----------



## ZipperHead

plattypuss said:
			
		

> ........  By the way, although he advocates the Atkins diet in earlier issues, he predominately talked about the "Zone" diet during the seminar.  I know from personal experience I only lasted about three days on Atkins because I found I had no energy to do any kind of work-out.  On the Zone diet I've dropped about twenty lbs in total (10 of that just prior to the Cabot Trail)



I am really starting to question my memory retention capabilities...... The other day I mis-attributed a quote to the CDS, and yesterday I would have sworn that Dr Atkins had written "Into the Zone". Too much aluminum in my diet.....

Anyway, I am fairly determined to try ONE of those style's of diet's, not so much for weight loss, but as you alluded to, I am interested in having more energy, not less, when I work out. Weight loss would be beneficial, of course, especially for the plethora of body-weight exercises in Xfit. Alas, my eating discipline is not as strong as my exercise discipline, but perhaps I can convince 9'er Domestic into going along, and making it a family affair. My kids will probably revolt and rise up against us, but I'm pretty sure I can take the 2 year old......

I think the thing that sold me the most of XFit wasn't that it was a bunch of tree-huggers goin on about how good it was, it was all the military and emergency services types, and the emphasis on how the activities that "we" (as in military, and emergency services) have to prepare for are of a short, intense duration (chasing down a scumbag and throwing them to the ground (a few dozen times), scaling over walls, kicking in doors, carrying pers), not 20km runs, or doing a french curl to improve the look of our triceps in 2 sizes too small t-shirts (you know who you are.....).

As for wussing out and running instead of going hard with Xfit: hang your head in shame :threat: I would rather do the Filthy Fifty (the 9 exercises of 50 reps each) than go on a mind-numbing 20km run any day. At least the Filthy Fifty is over in ~40 minutes (for me, anyways), not 1:40:00 (I'm built for comfort, not speed).

Al


----------



## The_Falcon

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> I am really starting to question my memory retention capabilities...... The other day I mis-attributed a quote to the CDS, and yesterday I would have sworn that Dr Atkins had written "Into the Zone". Too much aluminum in my diet.....
> 
> Anyway, I am fairly determined to try ONE of those style's of diet's, not so much for weight loss, but as you alluded to, I am interested in having more energy, not less, when I work out. Weight loss would be beneficial, of course, especially for the plethora of body-weight exercises in Xfit. Alas, my eating discipline is not as strong as my exercise discipline, but perhaps I can convince 9'er Domestic into going along, and making it a family affair. My kids will probably revolt and rise up against us, but I'm pretty sure I can take the 2 year old......



Try the paleo diet  www.thepaleodiet.com.


----------



## orange.paint

Don't try the "driving across Canada diet" consisting of chips, weird meat sandwiches,and McDonald's...yes McDonald's.After 2 years I broke and had a bigmac and SUPERSIZED fries.Needless to say I feel like crap (sort of like a discusting food hangover)and am off to the gym to give this crossfit a try.

Al,you know deep down inside you enjoy the 1:40:00 run don't deny yourself!

Also you guys who have been doing crossfit for a while have you noticed huge results?


----------



## The_Falcon

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Also you guys who have been doing crossfit for a while have you noticed huge results?



What do you define as huge?  For me personally, since doing crossfit regularly since January (started off and on since July 05), I have gone from going from doing 1-2 pullups from a dead hang to 11.  I improved my run times, by only using the runs in the WOD's, my max pushups have gone up, same for sit-ups.  Also dropped about 10-15lbs of body fat, put on about the same in muscle (mind you I do supplement with, creatine, NO2 and protein shakes).


----------



## buzgo

I have been mixing in some crossfit and changing my workouts up a bit. I still run a lot and bike a lot as well. I've noticed that i have more muscular endurance and still have some 'oomph' left when riding up hills or through technical spots on the trails. I am leaving my riding friends behind a bit. I'm pretty sure its a result of some of the CrossFit stuff - many squats and lots of hip flexor stuff.


----------



## plattypuss

I have to agree with Signals guy, Coach Glassman (the founder of CrossFit) is an avid biker (like cult bicyclist - he admits it) and says that he definitely notices the differences on the hills between himself and the crossfitters - crossfitters have more gas left in the tank during the climbs.  I think I noticed that on my hill run circuits as well - squats definitely give you more oomph on the hills but if you incorporate squats in your regular workouts and don't neglect your legs like most body building types do - you would see some benefit. I've seen increases in my chin-ups for the short period that I've been incorporating crossfit workouts in my "program". It was rather embarrassing to see where my chin-ups had fallen too so many years after Basic, where the minimum was 7.  

Al, as Hatchetman mentioned the two diets most talked about on the Crossfit website are the Paleodiet and the Zone - there is also an increasing "movement" towards intermittent fasting which I am reading up on.  Check out the performancemenu website link in the "friends" of crossfit website - you can download one issue for free and its pretty much dedicated to "eating to improve your workout". I downloaded issue 17 and have another copy at home of a later issue. I'll try and get them to you if you are interested.

I have been toying with the idea of reducing my running workouts and just doing the crossfit WODs but I am a little hesitant because first I had the Cabottrail and next I have the Army Ten miler in Washington to train for and I don't think that the Crossfit workouts can prepare you for the longer distances involved in these type of races ie 15km +.  According to Coach Glassman these running distances should be minimised because they do the body more harm then good, although there are a lot of Xfitters who marathon, ironman triathlon etc. 

An interesting theory related to the use of the hip flexor in running brought up in a crossfit journal - is that the US Navy Seals, when they changed from performing situps to doing crunches, found that there running times slowed. They went back to doing situps because it was felt that the hip flexor was weakening by not doing the traditional situp. 

George - Is that why you were always feeding me donuts when I came up to the Archive office?


----------



## xander

Hey all, 
This is for all you troops in Toronto. The Crossfit Toronto Centre is hosting a 4 hour seminar from on Saturday, May 5 from 1PM-5PM on the crossfit training regimen at 388 Carlaw Avenue suite 301 for all military personnel for 30 bucks. The seminar will cover the theory behind crossfit training, practice some basic movements like kettlebell swings, snatches and squats to name a few and conclude with a crossfit workout that will beat your hide into a sweaty pulp and/or have you reaching for the puke bucket. There will also be an unarmed combat instructor who specializes in edged weapon disarms doing some demos. If you plan on coming, please message me. If the price is a problem, msg me. Thank you for allowing this shameless plug.


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## Infanteer

Do you have to give the secret crossfit handshake at the door?


----------



## ZipperHead

For all the CrossFitters out there (and those that are curious), the Infantry School will be going "live" with the CrossFit instructional videos, graphics, coaching tips, etc that they filmed with the CrossFit crew back in November, in late May or June, on the Internet and Intranet. This will precede the "official" adoption of the Combat Fitness Program (the new, new name for the program, after AOFP, and the others) into the AFM. 

We just had a 3 day Level 1 certification here in Gagetown, and there were members of the national PSP program there to observe/take part (along with some great troops from the USMC doing the same) to see what all the fuss is about. Notwithstanding some resistance from a few of these people (did I say 'some'?!? I meant 'a lot', from "cardio" types. Read as: they can probably run really, really good, but their _*fitness*_ wasn't worth writing home about) , I think it's safe to say that Coach Glassman has convinced enough people that he has an excellent program that he is willing to share. It's all free, BTW. Now it's just a matter of peopling hoisting it aboard. 

No secret handshake required, only your own Kool-aid glass. And the willingness to sweat, come to the nearly-vomiting stage, and have fun: it doesn't have to be fun to have fun.

Al


----------



## COBRA-6

Great news, I've been going to Capital Crossfit since Feb and it's the best PT I've ever done. Got a wicked case of DOMS right now too... it's the good type of pain! ;D


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## Infanteer

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> For all the CrossFitters out there (and those that are curious), the Infantry School will be going "live" with the CrossFit instructional videos, graphics, coaching tips, etc that they filmed with the CrossFit crew back in November, in late May or June, on the Internet and Intranet. This will precede the "official" adoption of the Combat Fitness Program (the new, new name for the program, after AOFP, and the others) into the AFM.



Good to see, cause the one in the Army fitness manual gets boring quick - as long as they don't name all the exercises with stupid girl names.

Funny that simple cross-training is considered "new".


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## ZipperHead

Seeing as I don't have the time, nor inclination, to take your bait, Infanteer, other than to say this: I'm not sure where you get that this (CrossFit) is "simple cross-training". Yes, the exercises can be construed as such, but it isn't that simple, as nutrition, sports, understanding of overall fitness are part of it. It would require work and reading on your part to figure it out, but I'm guessing that that is, well, too much like work. Easier to dismiss things as what they appear. That's OK, it's your loss. Keep doing what you're doing. Wait for the perfect solution to be delivered on a silver platter, then bitch about that.

Al

P.S The "stupid girl names" are used (like the way that names are used for hurricanes, etc) so that people would remember the exercises. They also use the first names or nicknames of soldiers who CrossFitted that have been killed overseas (Murph, Micheal) as a means of honouring their sacrifices. That's pretty dumb too, I imagine. A little reading would have garnered you that information, but no time for that, when you can jack up your post count on Army.ca. Yes, I'm pissy tonight.


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## the 48th regulator

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> I get it (finally)!!!!!! If you agree with everyone here, you are "in". If you don't, you aren't!!
> 
> Wow, it only took me 200+ posts to figure it out. Which again reaffirms my theory that the army is just high school with guns.
> 
> I vaguely recall that people are allowed to agree to disagree with one another (lord knows I do it enough).. . . . . .



And a bit forgetful tonight as well.  God forbid anyone disagreed with something you promoted...

dileas

tess


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## HItorMiss

Have done crossfit don't see the appeal nor the use honestly. Probably going to get hammered by those that whorship at the alter of cross fit but hey that's my opinion


----------



## Infanteer

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Seeing as I don't have the time, nor inclination, to take your bait, Infanteer, other than to say this: I'm not sure where you get that this (CrossFit) is "simple cross-training". Yes, the exercises can be construed as such, but it isn't that simple, as nutrition, sports, understanding of overall fitness are part of it. It would require work and reading on your part to figure it out, but I'm guessing that that is, well, too much like work. Easier to dismiss things as what they appear. That's OK, it's your loss. Keep doing what you're doing. Wait for the perfect solution to be delivered on a silver platter, then bitch about that.



Let me ask you this - were people in shape before crossfit?

Is it really new when you throw a sprint and an airsquat together and give the workout a name?

Is incorporating a diet into your fitness plan unique?

Do you really have the call the guy "Coach"?  It's kinda creepy.

Like I said, it's cool that the idea is being incorporated into the Army Fitness Program - the exercises and dietary approaches are good.  I use the odd routine amongst my physical training schedule as it works and it is a good change up.  However (it's always the big however that gets the crossfitter's panties in a knot), there is nothing new to this - I was using a similar approach to fitness 10 years ago when I found the "Ranger Work-Up" or the "Aussie 4RAR Training Plan" on the internet.  I just find it odd that people think this is the silver bullet of training - after seeing guys who tried it and didn't like it soldier some crossfitters into the ground it was pretty much confirmed.

Here's my advice to people reading this site - try Crossfit.  Be careful and ease your way into it and read the website - it explains how to do it properly; if you start squatting the Workout of the Day right off the bat, you're going to hurt yourself.  Look around; there is some other good cross-training approaches to PT - some that are geared right towards the military and include rucking and (for you guys who want to be commandos) swimming, etc, etc.  Find something that you like doing and build a plan around it - mix and match if that's what it takes.  Learn about the body and how to train it and (more importantly) how to fuel it.  Stick to the plan - consistency is the key - this is one of the nice things with the Crossfit program is that they offer you a Workout of the Day; but they definitely didn't patent it.

Anyways, there's my 2 cents.  Can I be called "Coach" now too?



> P.S The "stupid girl names" are used (like the way that names are used for hurricanes, etc) so that people would remember the exercises. They also use the first names or nicknames of soldiers who CrossFitted that have been killed overseas (Murph, Micheal) as a means of honouring their sacrifices. That's pretty dumb too, I imagine. A little reading would have garnered you that information, but no time for that, when you can jack up your post count on Army.ca. Yes, I'm pissy tonight.



Whatever - when somebody comes out and says "Ok boys, we're doing Debbie this morning" it just sounds stupid.

PS: 9,128.  :-*


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## ZipperHead

I don't know of anybody that calls CrossFit exercises 'new', except people who want to hear that. In the CrossFit journals, they have references to Navy gymnastics and tumbling manuals from the 40s and 50s. That's pretty much shooting themselves in the foot for people who want to call something new. How about kettlebells? Those are pretty freakin' new. Must have MP3 players in them, or something. The nutrition aspect is the same. They advocate some pretty old eating habits, such as the Paleo diet (aka The Caveman Diet), not Space Ranger Rick Diet. As somebody (perhaps you, Infanteer, said on this very forum: "It's old wine drunk from a new bottle". I used that line with Mr Glassman (or "Coach"), and he liked it. Probably heard it before, so maybe he was humouring me....

There are Xfitters who call this new, and revolutionary, and such. These are the same people who thought the Swiss ball was new. They will die off in a couple months after the new fad appears. There's a line from a Sloan song that goes: "It's not the band I hate: it's their fans".

There will be, if it already hasn't happened, a Xfit backlash. What people thought they "discovered" will become more mainstream, and will howl that it "sold out". Typical for anything that starts from the fringes.

I think one of the biggest appeals to Xfit is the fact that it isn't anything "new", but things that people have been doing for years (albeit incorrectly). There is gymnastics (remember rope climbing, pull ups, rings); weight training (not weight lifting) particularly Olympic lifts, which are functional movements, not like bicep- and leg-curls; and sports (either the sport of Xfit, for those like me that aren't team sports guys, or traditional sports). You only have to unlearn bad habits (my bugbear) and learn some new skills, and then give 'er. We had 3 Navy SEALs (who work for Coach Glassman) relate their pre- and post- Xfit experiences in A'stan and Iraq, and they all had similar storys to tell: they started out the same as most of us. Weightlifting Mon, Wed, Fri and then LSD runs Tues, Thurs, Sat and they THOUGHT they were in good shape. Then after realizing on ops, and after one guy was WIA and undergoing therapy, that there had to be something better. So yeah, if you can outsoldier some SEALs/CrossFitters, I wanna be there for that. I smoked some USMC guys (from Parris Island, Coronado, and elsewhere) on 2 of the CrossFit workouts we did in our seminar, but that's only because I've been doing those workouts longer. I have no doubt that in 2 weeks, they would surpass me. Good for them, and good for me, because I'm going to try to make sure that if there is a rematch, I won't let that happen  

As for the calling Mr Glassman "Coach", I too find it odd, somewhat like the Seinfeld episode about the Maestro. That could be because I never was into team sports much, so never had a whole lot of coaches in my day. Why not "coach", though?? What do you call someone who finishes dead last in their med school class??? Doctor. I think that Coach Glassman has earned that honorific (of"Coach", though I suspect he has more letters after his name as postnominals than he lets on, but doesn't introduce himself as Greg Glassman, ABC, DEFG, HiJK, LMnO, etc, like some people like to do, to make themselves feel more important than they perhaps are). Infanteer, if you want to be called Coach, fill your boots. You chose "Infanteer" as your title, but I doubt you have 30 years of being one, whereas Coach Glassman has 30 years of experience in his field. I respect the man immensely, and on the 2 occasions that I have had the honour of talking with him, he didn't give rat's ass number one if we called him Greg, Mr Glassman, Coach, or Buds. A very smart, generous man. Anybody who has the opportunity to speak with him should. 

I remember going to a local bar a few years back, and the SoftCell song "Tainted Love" came on. My wife, her friends and I thought: "I haven't heard this song in YEARS!! How retro". And from a few feet away we heard young 'uns saying: "This song is so NEW!! What is it?!?!?". Not sure if my analogy is relevant, but suffice it to say, everything that is old is new again. The interesting thing about things like CrossFit (all their info is provided free, if you are willing to dig enough, so I don't know where the "patented" aspect comes from, especially since they "market" themselves as open source) is the number of people (military, LEO, emergency services) who are embracing it, people who are generally cynical about the "latest greatest" thing. Maybe some people just don't like being late for the band-wagon....

Al


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## DVessey

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Have done crossfit don't see the appeal nor the use honestly. Probably going to get hammered by those that whorship at the alter of cross fit but hey that's my opinion



I guess I'll be called one of the 'worshipers', but I don't plan on hammering you. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I am curious how long you tried CrossFit for? did you do the WOD as prescribed, 3 days on, 1 day off?



Now to try and steer the conversation in a new direction:

Crossfit and the Air Force
I'm an aspiring AF OCdt at 'charm school'.  Are there any AF types out there who do CrossFit? Are there even AF types up on high who worry about AF fitness programs like the Army?
The biggest plus of CrossFit to me as an OCdt/undergrad student, is the timing. I can get over to the gym, warm up, do the WOD, quick cool down and back to the shacks in an hour on most days.


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## Eagle_Eye_View

There is a few of us...a few...The best thing is that I can do most of the WOD here at the park right in front of my house. I've been doing crossfit workouts for about 1 year now. 
I don't see the AF using crossfit as pt. Most of them will suffer heart attacks from it. they are so out of shape that the staff will need to bring them up to a standard before starting with crossfit.


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## HItorMiss

LAV Capt is big on CrossFit, did it for about a month on and off had no gains and actualy lost fitness level for myself so I said forget it and did what was told during PT then did my own work outs based on the old army style of run, rucks with push ups and sit ups at the end...

I am sure it works for people I just thing it's not as good as people think or say and I hate the cult menatily of it. Plus like I said I lost fitness level on it.


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## Strike

TB said:
			
		

> There is a few of us...a few...The best thing is that I can do most of the WOD here at the park right in front of my house. I've been doing crossfit workouts for about 1 year now.
> I don't see the AF using crossfit as pt. Most of them will suffer heart attacks from it. they are so out of shape that the staff will need to bring them up to a standard before starting with crossfit.



TB, you need to be quiet right now, before I get my fit body over to the left coast to show you a thing or two.  I hate generalizations, especially ones like that.



> Are there even AF types up on high who worry about AF fitness programs like the Army?



DVessey, suggest you try and find your way to a TacHel Sqn for OJT, especially Petawawa.  There is a very large group in the unit that is very fit in various aspects from running to triathlon to ruck marches.  In fact, 427 Sqn has placed extremely well in the past couple of years at the Ironman competition out there.


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## Eagle_Eye_View

hey strike,
sorry you took it personal but lets not hide the fact that the AF needs to upgrade their physical shape.


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## Eagle_Eye_View

davidhmd 
You're right, back into the topic. Have any of you tried the muscle up? How did you find it?


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## ZipperHead

TB said:
			
		

> davidhmd
> You're right, back into the topic. Have any of you tried the muscle up? How did you find it?



I found it.... painful (and that was only a jumping muscle-up).This is definitely a "move" that is reliant on equal parts strength and technique. I would highly recommend getting ring dips and ring pull-ups up to a high number (using assistance as required..... lower rings so that you can self assist with legs after burning yourself out). A false grip (google it or look on CrossFit message boards or the videos there) is critical (unless you have super-human strength: it shortens your arms, so to speak), and then keep your hands as close together as possible, and then close to chest and armpits as you push yourself out over the rings (pretend you have hand-cuffs on for the first half of movement... that might help keep hands tight to body). 

Coach Glassman and another guy got a 250 lb Marine to do a muscle up with just the right coaching on technique within a 15 minute period. Nichole (she of immense physical conditioning) admitted that it took her a year of work to get to "one ugly muscle up". So, this is definitely not something that the average person is going to achieve in a few attempts. I was using my home made rings (90 degree PVC pipe, rope, cargo strap) and will likely buy some PowerRings ($80, but far superior to my $20 Home Depot special), as they are going to come in handy for working on other skills as well (and hopefully won't bruise/abrade my arms like my cheap-ass rings do). 

It took me about 6 months to get to be relatively proficient at hand stand push ups (still working on complete range of motion), so I'm not too concerned with rushing how long it takes to get one solid dead hand muscle up (much more potential for disaster/injury with MU than HSPU if done incorrectly, or if ancillary muscles aren't conditioned enough through training).

Al


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## The_Falcon

you can also use blast straps from www.elitefts.com


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## DVessey

Strike said:
			
		

> DVessey, suggest you try and find your way to a TacHel Sqn for OJT, especially Petawawa.  There is a very large group in the unit that is very fit in various aspects from running to triathlon to ruck marches.  In fact, 427 Sqn has placed extremely well in the past couple of years at the Ironman competition out there.



Sounds like an interesting idea, but correct me if I'm wrong, there aren't any CELE positions at a Tac Hel sqn.

For this summer, I'm off to Greenwood for OJT. Definitely taking my rings with me.. it'll be interesting to see what kind of looks I'll get. as for the muscle up, I'm still working on it. I do ring dips and sometimes ring pull ups in my warm up.


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## DVessey

Link to Army Fitness Manual and Combat Fitness Program website:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land_force_doctrine_training_system/ex_aita_trg/acim/courses/acim/acim.swf

Very cool resource (in my opinion). There are drop down menus on the bottom, for the CrossFit excercises select 'Combat Fitness Program' and then 'Excercises'.


(Yes, I know I resurected(sp?) an old thread, but I figured it was the right place to put this. If you disagree, by all means start new one).

Cheers!


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## ZipperHead

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> LAV Capt is big on CrossFit, did it for about a month *on and off * had no gains and actualy lost fitness level for myself so I said forget it and did what was told during PT then did my own work outs based on the old army style of run, rucks with push ups and sit ups at the end...
> 
> I am sure it works for people I just thing it's not as good as people think or say and I hate the cult menatily of it. *Plus like I said I lost fitness level on it.*



I know I'm dredging up an old post, but there was a link to this page from this post: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/67092/post-627913.html#msg627913 . 

I'm not going to weigh in on the opinion's stated by HorM, but this fact (in bold, above): What fitness (level(s)) did you lose? All levels of fitness? Running (cardio)?? Weightlifting (stamina/endurance/strength)? 

Here are the ten accepted fitness categories (stolen from CrossFit Journal Oct 2002, available for free, here: http://www.crossfit.com/cf-download/CFJ-trial.pdf )

_GENERAL PHYSICAL SKILLS

If your goal is optimum physical competence then all the general physical skills must be considered:

1. Cardiovascular/respiratory endurance- The ability of body systems to gather, process, and deliver oxygen.

2. Stamina - The ability of body systems to process, deliver, store, and utilize energy.

3. Strength - The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply force.

4. Flexibility - the ability to maximize the range of motion at a given joint.

5. Power - The ability of a muscular unit, or combination of muscular units, to apply maximum force in minimum time.

6. Speed - The ability to minimize the time cycle of a repeated movement.

7. Coordination - The ability to combine several distinct movement patterns into a singular distinct movement.

8. Agility - The ability to minimize transition time from one movement pattern to another.

9. Balance - The ability to control the placement of the bodies center of gravity in relation to its support base.

10. Accuracy - The ability to control movement in a given direction or at a given intensity._

The thing I like about CrossFit, if done correctly, is it forces you to assess what you are weak in, and try to improve that area. If you were to read the Comments page for any given day that has running (yesterdays Workout of the Day (WOD) was a 10km run, for example) there were more excuses for people substituting ("subbing") that with something else, like rowing or running, or walking, than Kellogs has Cornflakes. Most people have legimitate reasons/excuses, but the true CrossFitter accepts, that while they might suck at running, it is something that needs to be worked on, not avoided. A case in point for me personnally: one of the WOD's gives you the choice of 2 different (but similar workouts):

_"Mary"

Complete as many rounds as possible in twenty minutes of:

5 Handstand Push-ups
10 One legged squats
15 Pull-ups_

_"Cindy" 	

As many rounds as possible in 20 min

5 Pull-ups
10 Push-ups
15 Squats
_

When given the choice, I always did "Cindy" as I am much better at push-ups and squats, than I am at one legged-squats (aka 'pistols'). Well, the other day, there was no choice given. I had the options of a) do something else, and ignore my obvious shortcomings (pistols) or b) suck it up and do "Mary" and the pistols. It was excruciating, and I took much longer than I anticipated per round, so consequently my "Mary" score (# of rounds completed) wasn't even close to my best "Cindy" score. But there really isn't a scoreboard anywhere; only one's personal fitness level being improved, which is the ultimate scorecard.

And yes, when I did the 10km run today (I haven't run over 5km in about 4 months) I was slower (by about 1 minute) than when I was running, exclusively, for fitness. But my push-ups are WAY up, my squats (weighted and high rep body weight) are through the roof, my deadlifts have gone from roughly bodyweight to 150% of my B/W, I can do handstands and handstand push-ups, etc. So, in one (of the 10) aspect of fitness, I decreased, but overall (arguably all of the other 9) I have increased. 

I am guessing (a wild-ass guess at that), that when the LAV Captain in question started the CrossFit program, he started at a very basic level (low or no weights) to work on form, in the interest of getting the best technique ingrained in the soldiers, rather than jumping straight in with high weights, and risking injuries left, right and center. That, arguably, if the best approach for group-oriented CrossFit training. For one that already has a high level of fitness (across the board), it would be frustrating to watch hard-fought fitness go by the wayside. Understandable. That's why I *despised* being forced to go on group runs (Squadron PT), done at a snails pace, when I was training for Mountain Man and 20+ km road running relays: it was counter-productive and I resented being lumped in the the "clag". 

For anybody to say that they lose fitness (in all, or most of the 10 fitness categories mentioned above) from doing CrossFit, in the recommended manner (in CrossFit parlance: "As RX'd" (the WoD, 3 days on/1 day off, good nutrition, proper rest, etc *AND*  your normal pursuits: ruckmarches, cycling, swimming, rowing, sports training..... you GOTTA read the fine print: If it seems too good to be true (i.e become an elite athlete from one thing [CrossFit] alone), it usually is), I would love to see what your fitness program is, because I would copy it, market it out the ass (give it funky-ass trendy name), or perhaps sell it to Greg Glassman (or better yet Mark Twight, who "created" the workout that the cast of "The 300" used.... that's a bit of an in-joke, as CrossFit people already know... Mark Twight "borrowed", without giving credit, the principles of CrossFit, and packaged it as his own). If it's: run 3 days a week, weight-train 3 days, take a day off..... rinse, repeat as neccesary, I am more than a little skeptical, because, as the shirt reads "Been there, done that" and it doesn't work. Then again, I'm a CrossFit drone, so I have to toe the party line.

AL


----------



## Infanteer

Huh?


----------



## Lumber

When I was on BOTP this past summer, one of my Sgts was recovering from a broken foot he suffered during JTF2 training, and he was a big cross fit 'nut'. Instead of the mundane 5k morning run, he had us do cross fit once or twice a week. His routine was:

Lunge 15m, do 15 push-ups, sprint back to the starting point, 15 sit-ups with medicine balls, lunge 15m, 14 push-ups, sprint back, 14 sit-ups, lunge, 13 push-ups, etc.... until you get down to 0.

The reason I'm posting this is that this required absolutely no equipment, save  medicine balls, and even those could be done without, replaced with regular sit-ups or a More strenuous version of an ab exercise. Throughout this threat (although I merely scanned it), it seemed like cross fit involved the use of an assortment of equipment. 

Was this workout we were performing actually cross-fit? I'll tell ya, my whole platoon had trouble sitting on our butts for the next 3 days thanks to this lovely exercise.


----------



## Armymedic

Al,
Where I work now has a lot (and I do mean a lot) of Crossfit followers, who do the WOD religously. Everyone of them I talked to say that to maintain the high level of fitness required for our jobs, you have to do more than just the WOD. Many incorporate the WOD into thier daily PT. 

Such as yesterday it was "Fran", they did it, and then went for a run.

Personally, I do a couple of WOD (as best I can) during the week, in addition to my own wieght/cardio workout schedule. (My personal favorite torture WOD is "Murph").


----------



## Munxcub

Well like all the "anti-crossfit" guys are saying, it's not the end-all be-all of fitness, but it is good stuff and mostly common sense. All it is, is constantly varied functional movements done at high intensity. That's it! If that's what you do on your own then you're already doing it! And they tell you to do this along side your normal sport training, whatever it may be. In our case, it will be rucking and what have you... maybe more pushups then CrossFitters normally do. 

Personally I alternate CrossFit "metcon" days and plain old barbell strength training days (and the occasional ruck), and my work capacity, anaerobic tolerance and overall strength and power have increased big time.

I was talking with a SAR tech from Comox (CrossFitter) at an olympic weightlifting course and he said he lost fitness during BMQ, so it goes both ways.

Anyways, that's just my biased opinion as a CrossFit affiliate...


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## JBoyd

Unfortunately all this Crossfit stuff makes little to no sense to me, i am very interested in increasing my personal fitness level, as it has dramatically decreased over the past few years. I know a bit about working out but not alot, so i feel kind of lost.


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## ZipperHead

What is it [about CrossFit] that makes no sense?? 

If you are looking for a "get fit quick, with no hard work" scam, don't bother. Like everything else in life, you only get out of it what you put into it.

For what it's worth, I just got back from the Toronto CrossFit certification. I was evaluated as a trainer (level 2) there, and I learned so much (about how to train others, and just the basic mechanics that I forgot or never learned the first time around) that it boggles the mind! For anybody who has done one of the military certs please don't be discouraged by that experience, if that is what is putting you off of CF. My first cert was in Gagetown, and too much time was spent trying to convince non-believers (some, but certainly not all PSP staff; various people that were forced to be there (to fill their unit/schools quota), etc) about the efficacy of CrossFit. The testimonials of the military CFHQ guys (active duty SEALs) was incredible, and missing at the civvy cert, for somewhat obvious reasons (I talked with Dave Castro about this, and this is SOP). At the "civvy" certs, it's true-believers (those that spent a dump-truck load of money to be there... people flew in from Washington State, Edmonton, Winnipeg, New York, Michigan, Montreal, Fredericton, ), so the focus is on training: learning the basics, and how to help others train. There are cert "groupies" who travel (at great expense) to as many certs as they can get to, in their quest for knowledge. Greg Glassman gets better every time I hear him talk. Nicole, Eva T (who I got to train with!!!), Tony Budding, Dave Castro, Pat Sherwood (the "rock stars" of CFHQ that were there) and all the other trainers, and affiliate members, are so passionate about helping others on their quest for fitness, that I was taken aback. I have received so much from Greg Glassman (or "Coach" as he is very fondly, and deservedly, called), for free, I might add, that there is absolutely no way I can repay him (though I try, by spreading the CrossFit gospel to anybody who is willing to listen.... and many who aren't  >). To him, helping out those that help others in society (military, LEO, first responders) is his way of doing his part. Some may think that "they" are in it for the money, and to be honest, I don't know how they don't go broke, as they keep giving everything (the knowledge) away. I don't think any one of them will ever be "rich", but I don't see any of them wanting to: it's about fitness. If they can retire comfortably, good on 'em.

If you don't "get it", even after doing all the required reading (look on the CFHQ website: www.crossfit.com), please contact me via PM, and I will try to help you in any, way, shape or form as I can. If you are willing to work. If you aren't willing to do even the basic research required (to set yourself up, fitness-wise, for life) don't bother contacting me, as CrossFit definitely won't be for you. 

Take care,

Allan


----------



## JBoyd

I have been reading a bit on the Crossfit.com website, but still have alot more to read as it seems. I was directed to a site, Simplefit.com that seems to be a good place for me to start my training as a beginner.


----------



## The_Falcon

JBoyd said:
			
		

> I have been reading a bit on the Crossfit.com website, but still have alot more to read as it seems. I was directed to a site, Simplefit.com that seems to be a good place for me to start my training as a beginner.



Reading is never a bad thing, it helps to know what exactly is going on inside you when you do these workouts, why x movement/exercise is more beneficial than y movement/exercise, etc.  Admittedly some of the articles are way over my head in terms of knowledge base, but I am still able to pick things up here and there.  If you are keen on getting fit (and more importantly STAYING fit), gaining knowledge (yes by reading) will help you achieve it.


----------



## armyvern

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> ...I learned so much ... it boggles the mind! .... too much time was spent trying to convince *non-believers * ... about the *efficacy of CrossFit*... *testimonials... incredible * ... At the "civvy" certs, *it's true-believers * ... *cert "groupies*" .... as many certs as they can get to, in *their quest for knowledge*... "*rock stars" of CFHQ*...   so *passionate about helping others on their quest for fitness*... "Coach"... *no way I can repay him * (though I try, by *spreading the CrossFit gospel to anybody * who is willing to listen.... *and many who aren't * (This may be your problem ...  ) ... *they keep giving everything (the knowledge) away*...



And now, for the new AmWay presidential nomination ...

I thought you said somewhere else in this forum that you already had a Crossfit site?? 

Is it down? Is Army.ca now your secondary preaching site because you seem to be making it so every chance you get?? At least, this time, you've put it in the right thread ... but it isn't just your thread. Don't be surprised nor offended when "non-believers" don't buy your above and speak out about it. 

Please keep your "stuff" (garble) to this thread too, it goes a long way to ensuring that those of us who don't want or feel like being inundated with it _yet again_ ... know which thread to ignore.


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## JBoyd

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Reading is never a bad thing, it helps to know what exactly is going on inside you when you do these workouts, why x movement/exercise is more beneficial than y movement/exercise, etc.  Admittedly some of the articles are way over my head in terms of knowledge base, but I am still able to pick things up here and there.  If you are keen on getting fit (and more importantly STAYING fit), gaining knowledge (yes by reading) will help you achieve it.



yes I aswell can pick up things here or there, and as well some of it is over my head. stuff like kipping pull ups (further googling reveals a video and I understand now) along with tabata interval, found something that tried to explain it, didnt explain it to well. but I am keen on becoming fit again and staying fit. Admittedly my fitness level has gone far below where it ever should have gone, and that was entirely my fault, coupled with jobs that did not require any physical movement whatsoever (i.e. computer jobs). however now i have started a regular workout schedule, and im trying to incorporate running into it fully, as well as skip rope. But this crossfit seems just what im looking for in a workout regime. My biggest problem is, that at this time there is no gym in kelowna. someone apparently is starting one but is not up and running yet. so its hard for me to know exactly where to begin and what is going to work best for me. I guess its all going to be trial and error for awhile . one question i have though is, do you need to have a lot of money to do crossfit? i know that on the crossfit website they list prices for lessons, but can you do it by yourself? at home? or a local cheap gym such as the ymca? i only ask because i am committed to getting fit however my pockets are fairly shallow this time of year.


----------



## Spartan

You can workout lots without ANY Gym - try bodyweight excercises - there are quite a few out there on the net - and you can really compile together alot of excercises into circuit training that will kick you in the rear.


----------



## The_Falcon

JBoyd said:
			
		

> one question i have though is, do you need to have a lot of money to do crossfit? i know that on the crossfit website they list prices for lessons, but can you do it by yourself? at home? or a local cheap gym such as the ymca? i only ask because i am committed to getting fit however my pockets are fairly shallow this time of year.



If you want to set up a decent home gym (squat cage, barbell, weights, bench, are at minimum things you would require), its going to cost you some money up front, however, there are deals to be had if you look for them (ebay, and placed that sell used equpiment), especially since boxing "week" is coming up soon (thats when I purchased most of my stuff).  I think I have spent close to $1000 on my home gym over the last 22 months, however the average gym membership is about $500 a year, so I have am still ahead.  You'll will probably find that doing crossfit/circuit training style workouts will be much easier to complete at home, as no one will be stealing your equipment cause you have to run to the other side of the gym.


----------



## JBoyd

Well i picked up a small home gym for real cheap not to far back, a Weider 740. But i have been researching different types of bodyweight exercises that i can do at home, and i purchased a chinup bar (although i am not strong enough to use it properly)


----------



## Armymedic

Al, 
you need not sell or preach or whatever Crossfit. If people are interested in achievng advanced levels of fitness, regardless of whatever level they are at, they will eventually find it. They will try it, and they will hate it, because the workouts are hard....but they will come back because Crossfit offers more to fitness other than running, rucking and lifting wieghts.

BTW, today's WOD, I was disappointed, only 8, but after upper body wieghts and 30 mins of cardio. 

For anyone in Petawawa who wants to give it a go, PSP staff (Nicole, Rick , Kori, etc) run a class at noon hour (1210-1250) Mondays at the Army Fitness Center (Twin Rivers).


----------



## ZipperHead

Ash,

I don't preach (though some might disagree) so much, per se, as correct people on their assumptions, and/or guide people who I think that have the motivation towards CF. I started off as a huge skeptic (some of the exercises just seemed too special: kettlebells swings, the snatch, hand stands, etc), but after talking about it with Capt JT Williams (the "God-Father of CF in the CF"... I just made that up, so don't blame JT for that groaner....) and then doing some research, I pursued it. I did the lurking on the web site, and then easing into it (doing traditional calesthenics (pullups, pushups, air squats, lunges, etc) at a high intensity). It was very difficult, as there was next to no-one doing it in Gagetown (at the same hour of the day, in the same area... there was others doing it, in unit lines, and at lunch, after work, etc), it was hard to get into it. That's part of why I am passionate about getting people into it: going it solo is very hard. Having a training partner is critical once you get into it. I realize now how much I sucked when I was flanging around on my own. The videos, posts, Journals and all that helped, but coaching is very important, esp. as you get into the O lifts and the advanced movements. Even if it's just minor corrections, they go a long way. I am going to start video taping my workouts, so I can critique myself (a good coaching exercise, as well, as you can start learning to give the cues that your students/clients/buddies will need to correct their form).

For those that are unsure, one of the great pieces of advice that Coach has is this: doing a functional movement wrong (i.e. flanging around like I did in the start) is better than not doing it at all. Even if you are doing many of the things that CrossFit doesn't advocate (specialist movements, like 10km+ runs, "beach-body" weight workouts, etc), that is, as well, better than doing nothing, and will greatly aid you on your way in CrossFit. 

You are right, though, Ash: people will find it, eventually, on their own, though that is a little disconcerting for me, as now, more than ever in the CF, people need to be in the best shape that they can, with the high op tempo, in highly demanding locations. We don't have the luxury of 2 month sea voyages (a la WWII) to "whip ourselves into shape", and there is no time on pre-deployment training to get into shape (i.e one should already be in shape, not waiting until the last minute). Too many people are in denial about their level of fitness, and then procrastinate until it is far too late. 

AL


----------



## Infanteer

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> We don't have the luxury of 2 month sea voyages (a la WWII) to "whip ourselves into shape"



Did they do the WOD on the troop carriers - I guess that's how they beat the Third Reich.  I'll have to ask Grandpa how he and the boys liked doing Francine before hitting the beaches of Sicily....


----------



## chris06

Disclaimer:
1.  I Crossfit
2.  I've never been in a operational environment, nor am I fully trained for that matter.

Perhaps the biggest lesson I've learned from Crossfit and it is something I've very little reading over the previous posts, is humility.  I crossfit in a group environment and am awestruck by the Moms who kick my butt in Workouts of the Day.  What am I getting at?  *Well people of all fitness levels crossfit, and just because you do so doesn't make you fitter than the next person. * I could walk onto the parade square and point to any number of troops who could PT me into the ground, and more likely than not, they don't subscribe to crossfit workouts.  

I think the key is to do a self evaluation of your strengths and weaknesses and design a PT program to improve your deficiencies.  My program is Crossfit, yours may be.....

3-2-1 GO!


----------



## armyvern

That post was refreshing. I know a hell of a lot of extremely fit people ... who don't Crossfit. They'll be glad to hear this news !!


----------



## ZipperHead

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Did they do the WOD on the troop carriers - I guess that's how they beat the Third Reich.  I'll have to ask Grandpa how he and the boys liked doing Francine before hitting the beaches of Sicily....



Yeah, back in the day Grampa was expected to be challenged by the awe-inspiring standards that we presently have. In fact, grampa can probably still get an exemption vis a vis the CF EXPRES test. Or the spine-crunching 35lb ruck march, at the geriatic crawl pace that is required. Grampa might fit in, in some of the units we have. I would rather have somebody that age, in the shape that he is likely still in, than all the 60% soldiers that we have.

All of this coming from people with posts in the multiple 1000's on Army.ca. Your fitness (all 10 categories) must be overwhelming. Please tell how you manage to get in all your fitness and still spend so much time on your ass in front of the computer, passing on your pearls of wisdom. I really appreciate you taking your valuable time to make me feel like I am wasting mine. See you in the gym. 

AL


----------



## ZipperHead

chris06 said:
			
		

> Disclaimer:
> 1.  I Crossfit
> 2.  I've never been in a operational environment, nor am I fully trained for that matter.
> 
> Perhaps the biggest lesson I've learned from Crossfit and it is something I've very little reading over the previous posts, is humility.  I crossfit in a group environment and am awestruck by the Moms who kick my butt in Workouts of the Day.  What am I getting at?  *Well people of all fitness levels crossfit, and just because you do so doesn't make you fitter than the next person. * I could walk onto the parade square and point to any number of troops who could PT me into the ground, and more likely than not, they don't subscribe to crossfit workouts.
> 
> I think the key is to do a self evaluation of your strengths and weaknesses and design a PT program to improve your deficiencies.  My program is Crossfit, yours may be.....
> 
> 3-2-1 GO!



Sorry I missed your great post, as I was distracted by some fitness SME's taking pot shots at me. I should have resisted, but I occasionally slink down to their level. Gives me perspective....

You are very correct. It's all about being the fittest that you can be. If you want to settle for mediocrity, that's fine: just don't do it on the Queen's time. Go hard, or go home....

AL


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Yeah, back in the day Grampa was expected to be challenged by the awe-inspiring standards that we presently have. In fact, grampa can probably still get an exemption vis a vis the CF EXPRES test. Or the spine-crunching 35lb ruck march, at the geriatic crawl pace that is required. Grampa might fit in, in some of the units we have. I would rather have somebody that age, in the shape that he is likely still in, than all the 60% soldiers that we have.
> 
> All of this coming from people with posts in the multiple 1000's on Army.ca. Your fitness (all 10 categories) must be overwhelming. Please tell how you manage to get in all your fitness and still spend so much time on your ass in front of the computer, passing on your pearls of wisdom. I really appreciate you taking your valuable time to make me feel like I am wasting mine. See you in the gym.
> 
> AL



I have nothing to prove to you, and I really don't care what kind of a superman you think you are, or how much better you need to feel than any one else. However, the only guy here that's looking like an ass, is the one dragging out that great big brush to paint everyone that doesn't meet his imaginary, mythical standard. If the explosive, mind numbing ego is a by product of your program, I'd rather be Jabba the Hut. I've spent a long time ignoring just about anything you've had to say about, well, anything. I'll now go back to that standard.


----------



## DVessey

CrossFit is not the be-all end-all of fitness... but it tries to be. I think this is an important distinction.
Mr. Glassman has stated many times that if you can find something else that works better, he will use it.


----------



## ZipperHead

You guys never cease to amaze me. I was going to take the high road (for once in my life), but I can't. 

You advise people that if they don't like something, ignore it. Ignore me, for feck's sake. I do my best to stay out of your circle-jerk, DS love-ins. Obviously something about my fitness posts bugs all of you. Take a look in the mirror, suck back, reload, and if you still like what you see (and what example you set for your kids, peers, subordinates, co-workers), good for you. If not, well.....

AL


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> You guys never cease to amaze me. I was going to take the high road (for once in my life), but I can't.
> 
> You advise people that if they don't like something, ignore it. Ignore me, for feck's sake. I do my best to stay out of your circle-jerk, DS love-ins. Obviously something about my fitness posts bugs all of you. Take a look in the mirror, suck back, reload, and if you still like what you see (and what example you set for your kids, peers, subordinates, co-workers), good for you. If not, well.....
> 
> AL



 It's got nothing to do with fitness or fitness posts, so you can't play that card. And your really a nobody, at least not someone with a right to judge anyone else, here or anywhere. You can be the most fit person in the room, and still be the biggest loser. Come to think of it..........


----------



## armyvern

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Sorry I missed your great post, as I was distracted by some fitness SME's taking pot shots at me. I should have resisted, but I occasionally slink down to their level. Gives me perspective....
> 
> You are very correct. It's all about being the fittest that you can be. If you want to settle for mediocrity, that's fine: just don't do it on the Queen's time. Go hard, or go home....
> 
> AL



See Allan,

This is EXACTLY what I meant earlier about your preaching perhaps being your problem. I also told you that not everyone was going to agree with you. They are allowed to state their opinions without your insinuations that they are useless with no hope, not worthy of service, lacking self-discipline etc ad naseum. Or your statements that they are "mediocre" because they don't subscribe to your love of Crossfit. You know damn well that's bullshit. Crossfit is not the only way to achieve a high level of fitness and that is what the prior posts were about.

Another fine example from you that profess' to infer that those who do not Crossfit are not in shape, or as "worthy", or as "fit" as yourself.

That is bullshit. I'm no fitness SME and with statements like this one, neither the hell are you. You are a Crossfiter (perhaps you are even becoming a SME at that discipline), but you have a lot to learn about fitness if you believe that it can only be achieved via Crossfit means.

Not being a Crossfitter does not equal unfit. Nor does it equate that one never can become so without Crossfit.


----------



## armyvern

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> You guys never cease to amaze me. I was going to take the high road (for once in my life), but I can't.
> 
> You advise people that if they don't like something, ignore it. Ignore me, for feck's sake. I do my best to stay out of your circle-jerk, DS love-ins. Obviously something about my fitness posts bugs all of you. Take a look in the mirror, suck back, reload, and if you still like what you see (and what example you set for your kids, peers, subordinates, co-workers), good for you. If not, well.....
> 
> AL



DS loving circle-jerks?? Wrong answer. And, where the heck did you pull that from?

You don't need to be rude just because some of us happen to disagree that Crossfit is the only determining factor of fitness. I look in the mirror daily -- I'm quite happy with what I see. 

And, it's got sweet fuck all to do with being a DS. Build a bridge Alan ... some day you may get over it.  :


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Yeah, back in the day Grampa was expected to be challenged by the awe-inspiring standards that we presently have. In fact, grampa can probably still get an exemption vis a vis the CF EXPRES test. Or the spine-crunching 35lb ruck march, at the geriatic crawl pace that is required. Grampa might fit in, in some of the units we have. I would rather have somebody that age, in the shape that he is likely still in, than all the 60% soldiers that we have.
> AL



I don't know you, we work in different worlds, but if this post above is you taking the "high road" than you may be the fittest person on this forum but still be remarkably pathetic.

You've been through the warning system long before you became the self-proclaimed fitness savior of all things military and if you can't keep your broad brushed insults of the members of the Canadian Forces to yourself than I will be smiling as I punt you off this site.

[Shouldn't mean that much to you as you left at least once before and swore never to come back]

Bruce "just fit enough to be happy" Monkhouse


----------



## Command-Sense-Act 105

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> ... your circle-jerk, DS love-ins. Obviously something about my fitness posts bugs all of you. ... and if you still like what you see (and what example you set for your kids, peers, subordinates, co-workers), good for you. If not, well.....



Hmmm - no DS button here.  

Vern said a few posts ago what a lot of us were thinking.  Every time I see one of your posts I wonder "who does this guy think he is?"

Your fitness posts don't bug me.  I like fitness.  I like Crossfit.  I've done it.  I still do it.  It's a good tool and a well-thought out system.  

But your preaching, your cult-like devotion and insistence that others - 'non believers' was I term I believe you've used before must "see the light", your insinuations that you are "Mr Fitness" and "good PT automatically makes good soldier above all else" - those bug me.  Your refusal to acknowledge differing points of view, as demonstrated  a few pages ago when Infanteer pointed out that Crossfit is really just a variation on a very old theme of circuit training and proven exercises linked into complex movements and given cutesy names - that bugs me.  In fact, if I remember correctly, didn't that little observation spark a near-meltdown?  Seemed almost like you were crying through your keyboard.  Weren't you trying to tell us things along the tenuous theme of "Crossfit = Leadership, no Crossfit = ineffective"?

Your little diatribe about "do you like what you see in the mirror" is further proof of that.  Where do you get off with that garbage?  How many potential Crossfit candidates do you think your single-mindedness, insulting attitude and messianic style of approach has turned off of the system?

Perception is reality.  The perception here?  You need to get off the Crossfit CrackPipe and open your mind up a bit.


----------



## plattypuss

Jeesh haven't posted on this site for a while and look at the fun I am missing!  

I don't think it is wrong to be emotional about the topic of physical fitness or even CrossFit and I think it's great that the debate continues to rage as we should never become complacent with our fitness level nor the program we use to achieve that level.  I attribute Al's recent emotional responses to the fact that he recently attended the certification seminar in Toronto and as many of you know when you finish a particularly demanding course (and make no mistake about it CrossFit is demanding) you are particularly gung-ho about the topic at hand.  Al's points are also highlighting the fact that your fitness level can save your life - if you ever read the CrossFit.com boards you will find them full of American Combat veterans who swear by the CrossFit system. I don't know if the same can be said yet in terms of Canadian veterans returning from Afghanistan, but I *think*, they might say the same. Of interest is a picture on the Crossfit site, sent by 3VP of a couple Cdn soldiers bashing in a door. I don't know if all or any of the Cdn soldiers employed in Afghanistan do CrossFit but I would be interested to find out if the soldiers coming back felt any one form of exercise prepared them better for the mental, physical and emotional rigours of combat.
Not to reopen debate, about what is old, is new again (which is partially true in terms of the exercises used within CrossFit) CrossFit has a series of new concepts if you do it as a group, not necessarily if you do it as an individual.  If you do it as an individual then Crossfit is a lot like an old style circuit training workout (using a very broad brush).  The true "genius" of CrossFit is when you add the competition of performing the workouts as a group - then you start to see the difference between what is old and what is now new.  CrossFit is very competitive, you mark your times, or number of reps down, and when you record you scores in front of everyone - you add a new element of fitness (not to mention adding stress and emotion to the equation!)

In closing I'd like to add that yes, AL did get emotional about the issues, perhaps too much, but I'd like to put that in the area of caring for his soldiers and recent brainwashing attempts by Crossfit (Eva T can brain wash me anytime!). However the DS have to remember that they are supposed to remain "above" it all and not let themselves get carried away in the heat of the moment or argument and retort back, seemingly without thinking (although that at times can be very hard). I see a couple of cases of that here.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

plattypuss said:
			
		

> In closing I'd like to add that yes, AL did get emotional about the issues, perhaps too much, but I'd like to put that in the area of caring for his soldiers and recent brainwashing attempts by Crossfit (Eva T can brain wash me anytime!). However the DS have to remember that they are supposed to remain "above" it all and not let themselves get carried away in the heat of the moment or argument and retort back, seemingly without thinking (although that at times can be very hard). I see a couple of cases of that here.



The DS here are also members, and Mike gives us the green light to post as members, and until HE decides different, then live with it. [as I will if he changes that]

Now, just so you know Mr. Luomala  has been at odds with anyone who doesn't agree with him for a long time here. Cross Fit is just the latest middle age crisis that he has latched onto and insulting anyone whom might harbour a different opinion is his modus operati.

I don't think army.ca has grown to the size it has by allowing that kind of behavior to go on unchecked.
Bruce


DS PART OF POST
Now then.................LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC!


----------



## JBoyd

I was directed to a site a week ago or so, Simplefit.org. It's not Crossfit, but I find it is a good place for me to start. Any absolute beginners should give it a look, all body weight exercises (only equipment needed is a pull-up bar, but you can always do substitutions as well).  I did Level 1 Day 1 last night and it definately was a good workout.


----------



## Munxcub

That site is sort of a "CrossFit Lite" built as an intro to. You don't have to do workouts named after girls, or anything like that to do it.  If you are doing functional movements, at high intensity, and changing it up regularly, then I hate to tell you this but you're doing CrossFit. And if you enjoy what you do, it gives you the results you want, then who gives two craps about what you're doing. I personally enjoy CrossFit because I was bored as hell at the gym and not seeing any real results. I think gym machines should be outlawed and make everyone use a barbell.

These are just my opinions, mind you. And I am a CrossFit Affiliate (just starting up) I've only been doing CrossFit for several months (and not that religiously). I have increased my fitness from where I was after years of regular "gym" stuff. I also just did a CF Expres test last weekend. I wasn't the top performer there, but I sure as hell wasn't last.  So take it or leave, like it or lump it, chalk it up to "to each his own".  I would assume that any CF member here is doing high intensity functional movements on their own already, and is a fitness program by any other name not as effective?


----------



## AmmoTech90

Munxcub said:
			
		

> If you are doing functional movements, at high intensity, and changing it up regularly, then I hate to tell you this but you're doing CrossFit.



I always thought that was circuit training...


----------



## Munxcub

Well like I said, call it what you want it's all the same. Unless you're doing "Curves" or any machine based circuit (those are useless as far as I'm concerned...)


----------



## muskrat89

Munx - I think that's some of the confusion. Imagine that I was going on and on about this new food - vertically browned ,crunchy bread - and how it was "the" ultimate breakfast food" - and people kept saying "You mean toast". I reply "Noooo.. this is much more than toast. You need stone ground, organically grown grain. Then you mill it, mix it with yeast and sugar and water, and bake it. Then you slice it into 1/2" thick slices, and using this special cooker - you cook to perfection using radiated heat from steel coils."

"So, it's toast".

"Noooo.... you just don't get it, obviously".


----------



## Munxcub

Oh of course. I see where you're coming from and I agree. For some there is a large "cult" like quality to it. For me it just clicked because I really knew nothing before on actual training for strength and conditioning. I was just going on "common knowledge" which was all pretty much back asswards. 

CrossFit just organized new ideas and concepts for me into a nice package, made it interesting and fun to do. Plus it could also be a lucrative career if done right. I'm not one to say that it's new, because it isn't at all, it's pretty much back to the old school basics. But it IS effective, it IS fun and I do think everyone should be doing it (and by IT I mean functional movements, call it whatever you want I don't care)

I think we're on the same page, and I'd like to think that the CrossFit Crusaders are sort of the "vocal minority" as it were...


----------



## DVessey

Munx: nice to see you're starting up an affiliate.. hopefully I'll get to visit someday if I ever make it out to the west coast.

muskrat: I would argue that it's not really toast. It's got all the same ingredients, but when it's cooked it comes with PB&J already on it. What I'm trying to say is that CrossFit is the same stuff, but packaged nicer. 
- naming the workouts: kind of weird, yes. Whenever my buddy said he did "Cindy" one day and then "Michael" the next, I was a little confused. But there is a method to the madness. The argument behind naming the workouts comes down to the ability to rapidly communicate with fellow human beings. It's an abstraction. Instead of just calling it "workout 070605" or listing all the components of the workout, people can say "I did 20 rounds of Cindy".
- fitness as sport: This is an essential part of CrossFit. The idea that instead of just doing a 3 round circuit of run 800m, 50 sit ups and 50 back extensions, you do that circuit for time. Then, you post that time to your own log or the main website or a local affiliate website or whatever. I think this is also where the cultish devotion starts at - it brings out the competitive side of people in a community setting.

my few more cents on the topic...


----------



## plattypuss

Had a look at simplefit, as mentioned earlier it does seem a lot like a "light" version of Crossfit - has a whole lot of the same ideas post your workouts, community, etc. It even has crossfit as a link or friend.  You can also get a scaled workout at crossfitkids.com which you can go to directly or through the crossfit.com sight - it scales the workouts as well.  If you were to look at the earlier versions of some crossfit workouts they look much like simplefit or crossfit kids workouts as described.  So you are on track to move up to the full scale versions of crossfit workouts of the day, if so desired.

DVessey liked your points on naming the workouts and fitness as a sport. For example I did Chelsea yesterday and saying Chelsea is a heck of a lot easier then saying I did 5 chin-ups, 10 pushups and 15 Squats on the minute every minute for 30 minutes. And let me tell you I had to take a few extra breaks along the way.

Don't know how to handle the toast analogy, struggled to adjust it so I could demonstrate the difference between Crossfit toast and normal toast, as I would argue that packaging is really not the benefit of crossfit toast. I will throw this concept out there - how about about you're now cooking your toast on a TV show (the show here being the crossfit idea that your results are posted amongst a comunity or on a board for all to see).  All the contestants start with the same basic ingredients and need to produce toast. As I said before and others have as well - once you incorporate the ideal of broadcasting your results and the ideas of first place and last place in a fitness setting you take your fitness program to a different level then when you made your toast at home in your fizzy slippers and pajama's (for the record I wear fuzzy dog slippers).  When you're on the TV show making your toast you try harder, move faster, and more efficiently so that you beat the other competitors. That is crossfit.

I Crossfit at home - by doing so I acknowledge the fact that I am not getting the same workout I would if I crossfitted with a  group at the base gym. I also keep my results to myself, logging them on my computer at home so only I can see them. I suppose now that I say that, in retrospect it may be better for me to say I circuit trained or interval trained at home.


----------



## Blackthorne

Just a reference to paracowboy's post..

He got it correct WAAAAYYYYY back there at the begining...thanks bro..

And agreed. The ONLY way to get used to a ruck march is ruck marching. 



			
				paracowboy said:
			
		

> I dig Crossfit. especially it's value for strengthening the abdominal girdle, or core.
> But, it's not the be-all and end-all for PT in the CF, IMO.
> 
> It doesn't address power training. That can only be obtained by lifting heavy (HEAVY) things up. For power, you need power lifting. I became aware of the need for power training when I got caught up in a small riot in Bosnia, and had to batter my way through to get some troops out of it. Without the strength to throw those skinny li'l Croats around, I wouldn't have succeeded.
> 
> It doesn't develop comradery. That can only be developed by playing team sports, or going through Obstacle courses as a unit. By practicing teamwork in sports, we better learn to implement teamwork on the battlefield. And, as we all know, teamwork is the basis of what we do. And what we are.
> 
> It doesn't develop the warrior mindset. That comes from Hand-to-Gland trainng, martial arts, and aggressive sports like hockey and rugby. Soldiers need to develop that aggresive mentality.
> 
> It doesn't do squat to prepare you for humpin' a ruck. Only way to do that is by humpin' a ruck.
> 
> So, I feel it is an important tool in the box, but no more than that. _*It's part of a complete PT program, but not a complete program in and of itself.*_
> 
> Although it beats the heck out of going for a run 4 days a week, with a ruck march to break the monotony.


----------



## plattypuss

Blackthorne - I think there are two statements which are correct in paracowboy's statement.  The first and most important is that CrossFit is a tool in the toolbox - albeit I think it could be the one you reach for all the time and that the only way to prepare to hump a ruck is to hump a ruck (although I have reservations as accepting that as a blanket statement - Crossfit is not a sport or event specific program).  The other statements are wrong - a couple posts after para's comments should have dispelled the 1st point as simply not true, for the other 2, peruse the message boards at crossfit.com and you may get a different view.


----------



## Blackthorne

plattypuss said:
			
		

> Blackthorne - I think there are two statements which are correct in paracowboy's statement.  The first and most important is that CrossFit is a tool in the toolbox - albeit I think it could be the one you reach for all the time and that the only way to prepare to hump a ruck is to hump a ruck (although I have reservations as accepting that as a blanket statement - Crossfit is not a sport or event specific program). * The other statements are wrong -* a couple posts after para's comments should have dispelled the 1st point as simply not true, for the other 2, peruse the message boards at crossfit.com and you may get a different view.



Plat;

I have been doing Crossfit for almost a year and have been on the CrossFit boards for about three months.

I can see you drank the koolaid brother. ;D That's OK. So have I to a certain extent. But that is no excuse for calling another persons opinion "wrong". Those statements are not WRONG. They are his POV and are as valid as truth, at the very least to him, and to some others here, most notably ME. I think you need to develop and different vocabulary for "arguing on the internet" 

CrossFit does use Olympic style lifts to develop power. But the weight ranges are often a compromise on true power lifting (for obvious reasons). The small amounts of true power lifting that are rotated into the WOD's are not going to get you the power you need grab your buddy in full armor and ammo load out and toss him into a LAV. Also, I am a BFG, and I need to go to much higher poundages than what is prescribed in the WODs to get any real gains in strength. Just for the power exercises mind you. Just about everything else kicks my ass 

As far as team building and warrior mindset, I still have to go with paracowboy on those points. The only way (again, in my opinion and experience after having built a few VERY competitive but non-combat teams myself) is the only way get people to bond and be aggressive (guys in particular) is by getting up close and personal in a competitive environment. (e.g share and deal out pain, sweat, cuts and bruises to each other). I don't see that happening in Crossfit. It's very often you against the clock, and when it does get competitive, it's low contact.

CrossFit is probably the most effective way for people of beginning or intermediate fitness to train to a peak leel of overall fitness, but it generalization, they very thing it excels in, makes it unable to cover all the bases at higher levels of fitness. SOME specialization is needed, and that is a very personal and goal oriented thing.

Not sure if this was off topic, and I surely DON'T want to crap all over our CrossFit thread, but I want others to know that they are not alone in thinking CrossFit is not the Silver bullet.

Good meeting (and debating) you here!  :argument:

My 02


----------



## plattypuss

Thanks Black - I suppose we would be taking it off track if we continued but I have to, I just do!  My only rebuttal is to your comment on power (and I admit not all weeks are like this) is that if you review the last couple days of CrossFit you get:
1. Today - Deadlift 225 lbs, Handstand push-ups;
2. Yesterday - Front Squat 5-5-5-5... with whatever weight you can do for 5 reps
3. Tuesday - Rest
But just to be clear I drank the kool-aid, enjoyed it but I only drink from its cool frothy essence every once and a while (or is that beer...), I do a number of different things as I am not a BFG and still enjoy running long distances.  I use a lot of the lifting information from Alwyn Cosgrove, as a bigger guy and lifter you may know about him - I also access Testosterone nation for information - although it may not be completely safe for work. Alwyn tried Crossfit, used to be a supporter, but has evolved it to fit his needs for coaching power lifting and athletes of all kinds. 
I will work on my internet arguing skills but I figure most would understand that when I say something is wrong - it is always in my opinion just like when you said he got it correct - I was trying to sway you, but my use of the "Force" must be waning . I agree with you on your last statement on peak fitness and have already agreed on the tool in the toolbox concept of crossfit.


----------



## plattypuss

Just a quick link to a beginner's program which was posted on the CrossFit site a long time ago.  It incorporates a schedule more like what I do today (ie I do not follow the Workout of the Day concept). As I may do weights/crossfit one day and the run the next.  It incorporates the basic exercises of running/jogging, deadlifts, squats and the push press. The link is Safe for work, involves no drinking of kool-aid nor subliminal I love crossfit messages... ;D
http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/BeginnersMay03.pdf


----------



## punkd

Just wondering how many crossfitter's there are out there. I'm fairly new myself starting about half a year ago.
I see the odd person doing the WOD's at the gym but not very many. (Petawawa)

Just wondering if its catching on at any other bases? (I heard something about 1 cmbg getting funding for crossfit specific gym equip/areas)

For anyone that hasn't heard of it you should check it out. 
I've never before been able to do a workout in ~5 mins and be completely smoked afterward, until crossfit.

I'm kinda surprised that there's no affiliates in Petawawa.. I'm thinking there will be a big boost in the next little while..


----------



## DVessey

punkd: It looks like you posted a new topic that got merged into this one. I imagine if you read through all 9 pages you'll get more info than you ever wanted.

Quick answer: I've seen people (of all colours of uniform - I'm blue myself) doing crossfit or crossfit-like workouts in Kingston and Leitrim. It's not huge, but it looks like it's being pushed from on high and from below, now it's just equipment and training.


----------



## Padraig OCinnead

I just got posted to Vancouver and, while on summer leave, I began using the WODs to put some spark back into my PT regime. For the last few years at my last unit, our section PT has been usually uninteresting, dull, and not challenging. (except while I was tasked with running it of course). However, for next few years I will be lucky enough to be able to be in charge of my regime. But, I am so stuck in the old way of group level PT that I find myself getting lonely. Are there any CFers at Jericho? As many of these exercises are new to me, at least the weight training, I am looking for assistance on form and technique.

Paddy,


----------



## Kat Stevens

The are sciencrossfitologists all over this site, I'm sure a few will be along shortly.  Their own version of Tom Cruise used to post like mad on here.


----------



## punkd

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The are sciencrossfitologists all over this site, I'm sure a few will be along shortly.  Their own version of Tom Cruise used to post like mad on here.



When people hate on things, its usually because they are not good at it.  ;D


----------



## Pampers

I recently drank the KoolAid myself.

I have found CrossFit to be exactly what it claims to be, not a "Magic Bullet".  It is however, a great system that a certain Super fit CWO is pushing, and he is a great leader to follow I have found, WRT fitness.

Like most, I have found it to be something to mix it up, keep the body guessing, and let you know you "Ain't all that".  Its amazing how burpees can make the bile come out your nose.

I also found that I need to do cardio more often than is perscribed by the WOD, but thats ME, not YOU.  My Cardio goes to pieces if I don't keep it up.  I found that I needed more after the first couple of weeks.

As opposed to training for a _specific_ sport, like rugby, soccer, track, sychronized-swimming, or tiddly-winks, all of which have _specific requirements_, this is to help build an all around fit human.

I just wish they hadn't set the date for the certification in TO on Thanksgiving weekend.


----------



## blacktriangle

Big_Rifleman said:
			
		

> It is however, a great system that a certain Super fit CWO is pushing, and he is a great leader to follow I have found, WRT fitness.



RSM of a certain Toronto Inf unit? Am I thinking of the right guy?


----------



## Pampers

Probably.


----------



## The_Falcon

popnfresh said:
			
		

> RSM of a certain Toronto Inf unit? Am I thinking of the right guy?



Yes you are.     And btw the the reasoning behind having the Crossfit Cert at Moss Park on thanksgiving (which is already sold out), is because there will be no courses/exs scheduled for that weekend.


----------



## Pampers

Oh, I know why it is on the weekend.

It's just that Niner Domestic shut me down hard on it, and that was even before I got the chance to mention the cost.  

It seems on Thanksgiving your supposed to spend time with Family.  

Love my wife, miss my roommates.


----------



## DVessey

Padraig OCinnead said:
			
		

> I just got posted to Vancouver and, while on summer leave, I began using the WODs to put some spark back into my PT regime. For the last few years at my last unit, our section PT has been usually uninteresting, dull, and not challenging. (except while I was tasked with running it of course). However, for next few years I will be lucky enough to be able to be in charge of my regime. But, I am so stuck in the old way of group level PT that I find myself getting lonely. Are there any CFers at Jericho? As many of these exercises are new to me, at least the weight training, I am looking for assistance on form and technique.
> 
> Paddy,



Are you close to any affiliates out there? Most of them have drop in rates, it's always fun to do a group crossfit workout every now and then.



Anyone else on here heading to the TO cert? I jumped on it as soon as I found out about it, I didn't even realize it was thanksgiving weekend. It's nice that I'll have a day to recover


----------



## meni0n

Rifleman, try crossfitendurance.com for all your cardio needs. It's made to supplement the WOD cardio wise.


----------



## The_Falcon

DVessey said:
			
		

> Are you close to any affiliates out there? Most of them have drop in rates, it's always fun to do a group crossfit workout every now and then.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone else on here heading to the TO cert? I jumped on it as soon as I found out about it, I didn't even realize it was thanksgiving weekend. It's nice that I'll have a day to recover



I am going to be there, as well as a couple of other 48ths (since its our RSM that arranged this).


----------



## Pampers

meni0n said:
			
		

> Rifleman, try crossfitendurance.com for all your cardio needs. It's made to supplement the WOD cardio wise.



Thanks meni0n, I'll give it a go.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Big_Rifleman said:
			
		

> Thanks meni0n, I'll give it a go.



Wow...had my first cross-fit work-out tonight.  I know I'm going to be hurting tomorrow.  Just amazing.  No pain no gain right?  Can't wait to when I can get to more than 2 push-ups!  Finally, I'm getting a grip on my body.


----------



## Strike

recceguy said:
			
		

> Wow...had my first cross-fit work-out tonight.  I know I'm going to be hurting tomorrow.  Just amazing.  No pain no gain right?  Can't wait to when I can get to more than 2 push-ups!  Finally, I'm getting a grip on my body.



Good for you!  Keep up the good work!


----------



## armyvern

Strike said:
			
		

> Good for you!  Keep up the good work!



That's what he needs!! A whole bunch of us to keep him motivated to keep on with it!! 

Recceguy, can you perhaps take pics of your progress as you go along for us?? I'm sure they'd lend well towards motivating others as well!!  8)


----------



## TN2IC

How, okay I"m going to try to post this again. Somehow I hit a wrong button and delete it.  ;D


Anyways, the DND gym around here does not have any Crossfit tools/staff to help anyone along. I"ve been doing mostly kettle bells and running on my own for a bit now.

There is a civvy gym just down the road from me that is trains in Crossfit, and I"ve always wanted to sign up. But I just have a hard time trying to figure out how to pay for it.
One idea was there is a "Secondary Education/Training Progression Forum" floating around here. And it cover "training", now wouldn't it also cover Crossfit? Most ones I see fill out are for university computer stuff. But also on the form, it ask if it would better your career with this training? 

So what do you guys think? Should I take a stab at it? Are the cards in my favorite?

I"m going to ask my CoC, of course and see what they can come up with. Hehehehe..  :evil:


----------



## DVessey

recceguy said:
			
		

> Wow...had my first cross-fit work-out tonight.  I know I'm going to be hurting tomorrow.  Just amazing.  No pain no gain right?  Can't wait to when I can get to more than 2 push-ups!  Finally, I'm getting a grip on my body.



Are you legitimately trying crossfit, or just trying to get a rise out of everyone? From your previous post in this thread here (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42068/post-631601.html#msg631601) you definitely didn't seem too open to it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

DVessey said:
			
		

> Are you legitimately trying crossfit, or just trying to get a rise out of everyone? From your previous post in this thread here (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42068/post-631601.html#msg631601) you definitely didn't seem too open to it.



The fact that he left himself logged in whilst 3 other drunken Mods were in his room might explain that post.....*_ shuffles away quickly*_


----------



## George Wallace

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The fact that he left himself logged in whilst 3 other drunken Mods were in his room might explain that post.....*_ shuffles away quickly*_



AH!  What are friends for, if not to be abused.   ;D  A lesson to all.........Log off when you leave your computer unattended.


----------



## armyvern

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> .....*_ shuffles away quickly*_



looking very guilty ...

 >


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The fact that he left himself logged in whilst 3 other drunken Mods were in his room might explain that post.....*_ shuffles away quickly*_



 :rofl:

dileas

tess


----------



## Fishbone Jones

DVessey said:
			
		

> *Are you legitimately trying crossfit,* or just trying to get a rise out of everyone? From your previous post in this thread here (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42068/post-631601.html#msg631601) you definitely didn't seem too open to it.




 :rofl: :blotto: No


----------



## Fusaki

In the <a href=http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/83722.0.html>Cardio or Strength</a> thread Lil_T nails it:



> How useful are you going to be in the infantry (or whatever) if you can lift XYZ thing, but have the stamina of a sloth?  Or if you've got the stamina of a marathon runner but can't even lift your pack?



The answer? In my opinion, it's crossfit.  Crossfit is particularly suited to military fitness because it is unspecialized.  It combines elements of running, Olympic power lifting, and gymnastics with the goal of creating the most well rounded athlete possible.

There are probably people on this forum who've maybe heard of crossfit, but have never really been exposed to the workouts or the subsequent endorphin rush after completing a crossfit workout.  This thread is for those who havn't yet drank the Kool Aide.

Just try it. You won't be disappointed.

<a href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FimNZB5AHMA>Cindy</a>
Complete as many rounds in 20 minutes as you can of:
5 Pull-ups
10 Push-ups
15 Squats

<a href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5gL9IIzbsY>Helen</a>
Three rounds for time:
Run 400 meters
1 1/2 pood Kettlebell X 21 swings (or 55 pound dumbbell swing)
12 Pull-ups

<a href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ucNjpdlkEo>Fran</a>
Three rounds, 21-15- and 9 reps, for time of:
95-pound Thruster
Pull-ups

<a href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuxgnvSOM5A>Kelly</a>
Five rounds for time of:
Run 400 meters
30 Box jump, 24 inch box
30 Wall ball shots, 20 pound ball

<a href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAjV-LOW_uo>Annie</a>
50-40-30-20-10
Double Unders
Situps

<a href=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydeCu7W1VRc>Grace</a>
Clean and Jerk 135 pounds, 30 reps
(Use 95 pounds, 65 pounds or broomstick as needed)

I know there are guys who're reading this thread as they wait for the CFRC to call them back and tell them they're going to Basic, then hopefully later on to join an Infantry or other Combat Arms unit. Some of the guys reading this thread have probably considered CSOR or the JTF2 down the road.  Well, I'm not in CSOR, but I have friends who are.  They tell me that crossfit is one of the best ways to train for selection.  I have been in a rifle company in 1RCR for the past 5 years. In my experience crossfit is the most efficient method of training I've come across to prepare physically for the exercises and operations I've been on.  

For those of you who havn't yet joined but are committed to preparing themselves, I highly recommend Crossfit as an effective method of getting in good shape.


----------



## PMedMoe

Isn't there already a thread (or several) on Crossfit? 

Edit:  Yes, four on Crossfit and I'm sure it's mentioned in several of the other training threads.


----------



## Fusaki

Yes.

But the big one called "Crossfit and the CF" turned into a train wreck and I was hoping that we could breathe some new life into the subject.


----------



## HItorMiss

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Just try it. You won't be disappointed.



I disagree, I was, I dislike crossfit in the extreme and find it next to useless IMO.



			
				Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I know there are guys who're reading this thread as they wait for the CFRC to call them back and tell them they're going to Basic, then hopefully later on to join an Infantry or other Combat Arms unit. Some of the guys reading this thread have probably considered CSOR or the JTF2 down the road.  Well, I'm not in CSOR, but I have friends who are.  They tell me that crossfit is one of the best ways to train for selection.



Again I disagree. One of those Units has a manual for training before selection and tho there are some elements of crossfit is in there it is not crossfit centric for a reason. The other unit will soon have one and again may have elements but will not be centric. Those training manuals are and will be the best programs for passing those selections.




			
				Wonderbread said:
			
		

> For those of you who haven't yet joined but are committed to preparing themselves, I highly recommend Crossfit as an effective method of getting in good shape.



I semi agree only in terms that all fitness is good fitness prior to Basic.


Sorry Wonderbread I dislike crossfit. I am not a person who will be found worshiping at the alter of crossfit. For myself I don't gain fitness I lose previous benchmarks in other areas with no gain in others. Crossfit is not the god of PT that many people will tell you.


----------



## Fusaki

Funny,

I suddenly dislike you in the extreme.


----------



## HItorMiss

I am believer in personal preference however, if it works for you awesome. I just don't subscribe to that system as being perfect, which by and large is the general concensus of members of the crossfit religion.

And WB you know you love me, it's my smile  ;D


----------



## Fusaki

We're actually more of a cult.

What you can't deny though, is Crossfit's popularity within the realm of military, police, and security services.  Things don't get to be so popular unless there's something to it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Hey Fellas,

I got a tin or white paint, that I glued a 20 lbs weight at the bottom.  A brush I have attached to a 15lbs Barbell, and a pile of rocks.

Of you go and play!!   :blotto:


dileas

tess

 :-*


----------



## Fusaki

Come again?

I read "paint" and "rocks" in the same sentence. Is that a slight against The Regiment?


----------



## the 48th regulator

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Come again?
> 
> I read "paint" and "rocks" in the same sentence. Is that a slight against The Regiment?




Uhm,

No...no,  Uhm I mean.   I as a former leader tried to motivate the two of you to work together, as a team....ya that's it....

Hey is that a baseball game, I think the batter just hit a fowl....

I am outta here....zoinks!

dileas

tess


----------



## daftandbarmy

FWIW, when I joined the CF, infantry, there was no formal fitness program outside of the Airborne course, which I thought was excellent by the way. Phase  II fitness training involved running around in boots alot with our rifles over our heads and such, then lots of sect/pl attacks, then marching 30kms back to the barracks. No suprise that many people wound up 'broken' in one way or another. I can't remember any formal fitness training during Phase III, due to 'time constraints' apparently.

Contrast that experience with my time in the British Army where just about every course had some kind of formal, professionally delivered fitness program based on a combination of running and gym work (very similar to the Crossfit stuff) leading up to the main event - lotsa tabbing (a.k.a. ruck marching). There was never any argument about what type of PT we were doing or in what order, everyone just did it because it was part of the corporate culture. PTIs ran alot of it, but everyone from Private to General could lead a pretty good PT session as a result.

If Crossfit is a cult, then let's all drink the juice and introduce a universal, high quality, challenging combat fitness culture across the CF and get on with being better prepared physically to blow things up and kill people.  T:


----------



## The_Falcon

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> I disagree, I was, I dislike crossfit in the extreme and find it next to useless IMO.



Umm, can you be a bit more specific?  How did you find it useless, where were you doing CrossFit, who was leading you (if there was anyone or if you were doing it solo).  Making a blanket statment that you find something useless without providing specifc reasons for that is a little disengenuous.



> Again I disagree. One of those Units has a manual for training before selection and tho there are some elements of crossfit is in there it is not crossfit centric for a reason. The other unit will soon have one and again may have elements but will not be centric. Those training manuals are and will be the best programs for passing those selections.



The JTF 2 manual is not CrossFit centric because it came out years prior to the CF/PSP hearing of, and studying the CrossFit method.  The PSP at DHTC run CrossFit classes (by name).   



> Sorry Wonderbread I dislike crossfit. I am not a person who will be found worshiping at the alter of crossfit. For myself I don't gain fitness I lose previous benchmarks in other areas with no gain in others.



Unless you are implementing it wrong (lack of consitency/diet/intensity/rest), or your workout routine is heavily centred around bb/powerlifting routines (and their associated benchmarks), there is no reason I can fathom why your benchmarks would be going down.  



> Crossfit is not the god of PT that many people will tell you.



And thats your OPINION only.


----------



## MikeL

www.brassringfitness.com

Can find some good work outs on the site; most if not all of them are crossfit/crossfit inspired. They are pretty hard; but you can scale them back to suite you though.  A lot of the stuff on the site you have to pay for; but there is lots of free stuff.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

And back to the principles. As stated many times before, yet seems to be glossed over, is the fact that ALL of us are different (height, weight, bone structure, muscle fibre types etc etc). The Bell curve works, I guess, as an analogy. Most of us will fit somewhere in the middle.
I for one have wasted countless hours in the gym following one program after another (mostly high volume, muscle-mag type regimes). Reason being: I did not stop and think about what I was doing, and what was going on physiologically before, during and after a workout. Bottom line, I did not think critically or rationally about exercise. Whatever the flavour of the month was.
Until I drank the High Intensity (Mike Mentzer, Arthur Jones, Dr. Ellington Darden, Brian D. Johnston) or HIT KoolAid and realised that some very smart people approached exercise from a medical/scientific (ie rational) point of view, vice simply saying "Do this and it will work for you, because it worked for Schwartzenegger or BUD/S Top Candidate X". Here is a quick link to one of the articles that explore the myths and facts about bodybuilding/strength-training programs.

http://www.exercisecertification.com/books/Excerpts/Rational%20Strength.pdf

Whatever program or "bad-wagon" you jump on, stop and think about what you want to achieve (bodybuilding vs ultra-marathon or something in between) and realise that exercise has to be prescribed (as someone posted earlier) to suit the goal AND your unique physiology (metabolism, starting strength, recovery ability, existing injuries/limitations, other stressors in your life). Simply stating "I tried routine X for a month and it didn't work for me" is something we hear too often (not to mention getting tired of "preachy" advocates.
Regarding CrossFit or whatever you want to call it, same applies. Think about your fitness end-state (if there is such a thing) and your unique attibutes. Think critically about the scalability of the system as well as the "prescribed" number of reps/sets (ie volume) and workout days (ie frequency). The WODs given are examples or suggestions, not "presciptions" and are maybe good benchmarks for testing - they do seem arbitrary though come to think about it. Those of average to below average recovery ability (myself included) have to realise that unlike some people with greater genetic potential, we have to be more careful about overtraining. Maintaining a CrossFit regime (3 on 1 off as "prescribed") with the high volume of work required per workout is just too much, personally (from personal experience with high-volume training). To someone else, maybe the perfect fit. I could easily do this for a month or two, hit a plateau and actually start losing muscle/energy, and dismiss the program/routine as bogus. No, the basic premise of the program (eg. achieve and maintain well-balanced fitness) may have been sound (and achievable), but the methodology may have been flawed due it not being tailored to the individual.

Personally, I have found HIT (properly applied) has worked the best for me over time vice the high-volume/periodization approach. However, I have begun to substitute CrossFit-like activities (at moderate intensity) as a way of getting away from the overly linear and mechanical lifting demanded by HIT (one set per exercise to momentary muscular failure back to back, no more than 10-12 exercises per workout). Having done some of the CrossFit routines so check for baseline muscular endurance, I have found that HIT actually benefitted me and the results were good. Again, I have to rethink the whole intensity/frequency/volume equation to ensure I consistently achieve better results every time I work out while staving off the beast known as overtraining.

I have gone on a rant about this on other posts, but seems like the same themes are being brought up here, with everyone tap-dancing around the core principles. Bottom line - before trying to sell ANY program/routine/system as the be-all-end-all, think about it first (requires more work at the front-end, but will save months if not years of frustration and shooting in the dark).


----------



## Infanteer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> If Crossfit is a cult, then let's all drink the juice and introduce a universal, high quality, challenging combat fitness culture across the CF and get on with being better prepared physically to blow things up and kill people.  T:



Here, here!

PT is given the short end of the stick in this Army.  From improper preparation of our leaders to deliver PT classes to PT being the first thing written off for weeks at a time in order to do other things.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Then the established fitness standards need to be reviewed and revised (too many easy ways out with CF EXPRES) and establish more stringent penalties for not meeting the requirements. A "not deployable" slap on the wrist (and perhaps promotions as well, but...) seems to be a copout, as a good number of people actually would find this a welcome excuse, and the CF already has too many HQs that have a "non-deployable" status. This is where the out-of-shape soldier is bred and nourished.
If I understand things correctly, if a soldier is "non-deployable" (eg because of certain allergies), that's it, you're out. Granted, physical fitness is something that can be fixed (unlike a lot of allergies), however, when certain individuals are on remedial PT to fix their EXPRES scores for the umpteenth time without severe consequences there is a problem.
Oh, and why does the CF procure uniforms that obviously fit only pers who are morbidly obese??? Human rights? Right...
Sorry about the rant, but in the eye of the public (esp downtown Ottawa) we are the veritable Emperor without clothes.


----------



## buzgo

Functional fitness definitely has a place in the CF, thats why the Combat Fitness Program was created, with input from Greg Glassman and with more than a healthy dose of CrossFit philosophy. Thats why base PSP staff from all over the CF have been going on CrossFit certificatoins. The thing that turns people off is the rabid boosterism and cultish devotion of the CrossFit disciples. Now before I get flamed I sip the koolaid too, I read the message boards, I have most of the CrossFit journals and I pay pretty close attention to what they are pushing. They have done an outstanding job of putting their 'stuff' out there and making it freely available to anyone who cares to read it. You just have to take alot of it with a grain of salt.

Regarding the CF Expres test.... the test is good, people need to be encouraged to exert MAXIMUM effort - meeting the minimum is not enough. Ultimately, and it has been stated again and again and again, fitness is a LEADERSHIP issue. If you have troops that are unfit, do something about it. If you work with people that are unfit, help them to become fit, don't just write them off. 

   - That being said, there does need to be some greater consquence - the USMC has a pretty stringent fitness requirement, I believe that they must have a photo of themselves in their dress uniform, attached to their pers file. If they don't fit the Marine 'mold' they don't get ahead.


----------



## PMedMoe

[sarcasm] Frankly, I'm surprised the CF has adopted something so un-PC.  Why are all the workouts named after women?  They couldn't have called them something else? [/sarcasm]


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Then again, telling someone (with a big grin on your face) that you will be "doing Fran" today and "doing Cindy" the following day has a certain ring to it...


----------



## PMedMoe

Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> Then again, telling someone (with a big grin on your face) that you will be "doing Fran" today and "doing Cindy" the following day has a certain ring to it...



And therein lies the issue.  I mean, really, they couldn't come up with other/better names for the exercises?


----------



## Fusaki

I did Donkey Kong this morning... or did Donkey Kong do me?

"Donkey Kong"
3 Rounds for time:
40 Burpees
20 KB Swings
10 Box Jumps


----------



## MJP

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And therein lies the issue.  I mean, really, they couldn't come up with other/better names for the exercises?



Your concerned about an exercise program because of the names?  Wrong mindset IMHO.   

They are girls names as they were named after Hurricanes (the story I got and find around the internet).  Some of the newer ones are named after some of the significant women crossfitters.  There are also the hero WOD named after LEO and Mil personnel killed in the line of duty.


----------



## PMedMoe

MJP said:
			
		

> Your concerned about an exercise program because of the names?  Wrong mindset IMHO.



Did you look at my post with the [sarcasm] brackets?  I was kidding.  
Personally, I could care less about Crossfit since I probably will not have to worry about ever "doing" one of the girls.


----------



## MJP

It was tongue in cheek hence the smiley


----------



## PMedMoe

MJP said:
			
		

> It was tongue in cheek hence the smiley



Seen, no hard feelings!


----------



## The_Falcon

I like the names, if  a workout has a name (or nickname like fight gone bad, filthy 50s) you damn well know your about to experience a whole new level of suck.  It also helps me to remember WOD's (the prescription) if you are stuck for a workout. 

On the point of the "preachiness" of CrossFit disciples, I have found the same, stubborness/pushiness, from people who follow old school running/BB programs too (don't get me started about the folks on T-Nation).  Now I admit I do get preachy sometimes, but thats mostly when people (particularly my friends) dismiss what I am doing as a waste of time, CF is junk etc.  But will they give the program a shot? Nope.  They have no need to.  One suggested to me all I need to do was lift heavy weights once in awhile, do some circuit training, and a bit of running, and I would be good  ???:brickwall:


----------



## jhohertz

I think the main problem with CF is Glassman himself. He's the anti-science, knows the One True Way, guy who seems to be the biggest problem people have with CF. That being said CF people are a lot like the HIT Jedi's of the 90s in their strict allegiance and loyalty to one training methodology. In a way the rabid CF'ers (like the HITers of the 90s) are treating one training methodology as religious gospel as opposed to simply one way to get the job done. And as with all religious debates they polarize individuals and nobody can ever move forward. 

That being said, the HERO workouts. Does anybody know if they get permission from the families to use the names of these soldiers? I know one is based on a guy who did the workout his name is attached to but I see no such references for most. If they are not getting permission than they are exploiting dead soldiers in order to create an image from which to sell the CF image. How would a spouse feel to hear people talking about doing their husband? Or for a child to see his father (or mother. But let's face it the casualties are rather male heavy) sacrifice is simply used as a marketing gimmick. I personally do not want to see my name attached to a high-intensity circuit used by any company.

That being said, perhaps they do get permission. In which case, carry on. But if they don't, that's pretty much exploiting dead soldiers as far as I can tell. 



			
				Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I like the names, if  a workout has a name (or nickname like fight gone bad, filthy 50s) you damn well know your about to experience a whole new level of suck.  It also helps me to remember WOD's (the prescription) if you are stuck for a workout.
> 
> On the point of the "preachiness" of CrossFit disciples, I have found the same, stubborness/pushiness, from people who follow old school running/BB programs too (don't get me started about the folks on T-Nation).  Now I admit I do get preachy sometimes, but thats mostly when people (particularly my friends) dismiss what I am doing as a waste of time, CF is junk etc.  But will they give the program a shot? Nope.  They have no need to.  One suggested to me all I need to do was lift heavy weights once in awhile, do some circuit training, and a bit of running, and I would be good  ???:brickwall:


----------



## buzgo

Weren't they taken to court because they were using images of SF soldiers etc without permission - giving the impression that they were officially endorsing CrossFit?

Some of the posts when Glassman is defending the 'brand' are pretty entertaining/disturbing.

I still subscribe to the overall concept, its way better than standing in front of the mirror doing endless barbell curls.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Doing endless barbell curls or any other exercise for that matter is an example where "common" training philosophy has gone awry - ie. more is better, if 5 sets of 10 is good, 20 sets of 15 must be better. One could go overboard with "endless" pull-ups or "endless" squats with the same negligible results. The difference with CrossFit/circuit training and a good number of traditional weight-bearing exercises is multi-joint vs single-joint. Not too many CrossFit exercises (if any) are single-joint. Thus proponents applaud the fact that is is more "functional" and real-life applicable (beneficial to athletes, soldiers, LE pers etc). I for one could be considered a HIT proponent, not only because high-intensity, heavy weight, short duration and low-volume, has worked for me a LOT better than high-volume ever did, but also because of the "Lets stop and think about what exercise science really is and why we exercise a certain way" attitude that HIT "Jedis" came out with. Very refreshing after reading about Weider's steroid freaks who could work out 3-4 hours a day for 6 days in a row, and realise that unless one was taking copious amounts of illegal and harmful drugs, there would be no chance in hell to achieve the same results.
Bottom line is, as I have said before, critical thinking MUST occur for ANY exercise protocol to be considered viable or sound. Anything less, is purely gut feel and subjectivism. I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that exercise science should be relegated to the level of religion-like debate. We should not be dealing with belief or faith when it comes to the processes of the human body as it relates to stress physiology. The human body is fairly well studied, and while the debate over the "best" exercise program will likely rage on till all eternity (mainly because of the ease of being able to fall back on faith and belief over hard study and rational thought), any trainee will have to face undeniable facts once initial adaptation, mucle memory and form have settled in.
One should be passionate about good health and top fitness (sadly we see the results of the opposite too often), and healthy debating should be encouraged. Being a proponent of a certain philosophy, however, HAS to be defendable from a rational, factual and scientific point (adhering to strict metaphysical realities). This goes for CrossFit as well. And herein lies the caution - just because thousands of people are "followers" of a certain exercise regime, may not necessarily mean that it works for most. Unless you are able to track the progress of every single practitioner over time to see progress and those that drop out, anecdotal evidence is not good enough (this applies BTW to ANY philosophy - just because hundreds of thousands believed the earth was flat did not magically make it so, likewise with the belief of the sun spinning around earth etc etc).


----------



## jhohertz

Kinesiology is the scientific study of exercise. Although for years it was inappropriately named "Physical Education" and the application of science to exercise is a rather new topic. Particularly anaerobic exercise (it's hard to get rats to lift weights, as the joke goes). Disclaimer: Graduated with a degree in Kine. That being said the popular books being sold by "trainers" usually have little do with the actual science underlying exercise ("get a sixpack in 2 seconds a day! Lose 14 pounds in 3 hours!").

Although the website leaves A LOT to be desired this article is a good one about all the hype surrounding various training methodologies. The authour was a huge proponent of CrossFit before he and Glassman had a huge falling out and he was subsequently banned from the CrossFit message board. The authour is held in high regard by a lot of people (I know little about him but article was pretty good).

Nautilus, Crossfit, and "HiHi"
by Dan John
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/nautilus_crossfit_and_hihi&cr=



			
				Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> Doing endless barbell curls or any other exercise for that matter is an example where "common" training philosophy has gone awry - ie. more is better, if 5 sets of 10 is good, 20 sets of 15 must be better. One could go overboard with "endless" pull-ups or "endless" squats with the same negligible results. The difference with CrossFit/circuit training and a good number of traditional weight-bearing exercises is multi-joint vs single-joint. Not too many CrossFit exercises (if any) are single-joint. Thus proponents applaud the fact that is is more "functional" and real-life applicable (beneficial to athletes, soldiers, LE pers etc). I for one could be considered a HIT proponent, not only because high-intensity, heavy weight, short duration and low-volume, has worked for me a LOT better than high-volume ever did, but also because of the "Lets stop and think about what exercise science really is and why we exercise a certain way" attitude that HIT "Jedis" came out with. Very refreshing after reading about Weider's steroid freaks who could work out 3-4 hours a day for 6 days in a row, and realise that unless one was taking copious amounts of illegal and harmful drugs, there would be no chance in hell to achieve the same results.
> Bottom line is, as I have said before, critical thinking MUST occur for ANY exercise protocol to be considered viable or sound. Anything less, is purely gut feel and subjectivism. I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that exercise science should be relegated to the level of religion-like debate. We should not be dealing with belief or faith when it comes to the processes of the human body as it relates to stress physiology. The human body is fairly well studied, and while the debate over the "best" exercise program will likely rage on till all eternity (mainly because of the ease of being able to fall back on faith and belief over hard study and rational thought), any trainee will have to face undeniable facts once initial adaptation, mucle memory and form have settled in.
> One should be passionate about good health and top fitness (sadly we see the results of the opposite too often), and healthy debating should be encouraged. Being a proponent of a certain philosophy, however, HAS to be defendable from a rational, factual and scientific point (adhering to strict metaphysical realities). This goes for CrossFit as well. And herein lies the caution - just because thousands of people are "followers" of a certain exercise regime, may not necessarily mean that it works for most. Unless you are able to track the progress of every single practitioner over time to see progress and those that drop out, anecdotal evidence is not good enough (this applies BTW to ANY philosophy - just because hundreds of thousands believed the earth was flat did not magically make it so, likewise with the belief of the sun spinning around earth etc etc).


----------



## meni0n

What`s ironic is that Glossman doesn`t do CF himself. He looks fat and out of shape. I did CF for a year but now am combining different workouts to suit my needs, such as fatalfitness, cfendurance and cf.


----------



## jhohertz

He claims it's because of an injury. But I saw some pics of war vets with amputations (some bilateral arm and leg) who didn't let that stop them. 

Another good one which I have to post elsewhere is http://www.militaryathlete.com/ . The guy from Mountain Athlete is behind it. He started off big into CrossFit but then realized the workouts were too short, the timed nature of the workouts wasn't that beneficial, etc. It's a 5 on/2 off program. 



			
				meni0n said:
			
		

> What`s ironic is that Glossman doesn`t do CF himself. He looks fat and out of shape. I did CF for a year but now am combining different workouts to suit my needs, such as fatalfitness, cfendurance and cf.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

God article. Say what he may about Arthur Jones and the marketing hype surrounding Nautilus, the HIT methodology of today is quite different from even Mike Mentzer's take on the subject (Mind and Body II). He for one went to some crazy extremes with low-volume, that did not work for me at all. Dr Ellington Darden is mentioned, but again, HIT has gone through an evolution even with him. The most current HIT methodology looks more like HiHi than anything else. If HIT is considered machine-centric, it is really only because, in being able to achieve momentary muscular failure to trigger a growth response, one needs a spotter or the ability to safely lower the weights.
Personally, I have found that with the proper application of HIT principles, I have been able to increase weight, reps or both nearly every single time I have gone to the gym, and consistently so for far longer than just six weeks. And having done CrossFit sessions as well, I have not found it hard to achieve the posted results/rep ranges either.
But here I agree with the author - everything works, as long as the basic principles are adhered to. Even in HIT one can stagnate and become adapted or overtrained thus failing to realise further results after the average six weeks. By adjusting the key variables (intensity, volume and frequency) progress should be steady for a long time. Most gym types are often too gung-ho about training and only feel progress if they are in the gym all the time. A lot of people pay lip service to rest. Result: a certain regime works for a while and the tapers off - with most people not understanding why this is.
I can and I have bemoaned my genetics (as I am sure alot of others have as well), but while I have a hard time (no matter how I train) gaining weight, leg press results, for example, have gone from 270 lbs to nearly 800 lbs for 15 reps average. By going to momentary muscular failure, I am certain I have sent a signal of some kind to the system to get stronger. I guess in CrossFit the benchmark is time or rounds completed.


----------



## jhohertz

I never meant to across as an HIT basher, nor even a CF basher but I think I may have. I'm also not really seeing a difference between rabid CF supporters and HIT supporters. However the claim that science says 1 set is all you need goes against what is stated in my Ex Phys textbook: "A consensus of the literature suggests that multiple sets of weight lifting is required to provide maximal strength gains for all individuals other than untrained, beginning weight trainers.". (Exercise Physiology: Theory and Applications to Fitness and Performance, Sixth Edition, Scott K. Powers & Edward T Howley).  That being said at least HIT proponents don't seem to say they're better than science in near the same way Glassman distorts, warps, and rails against it. 

Seriously though, I didn't mean to attack your say of training. Individual differences. Do what works for you. My main issue is the Hero workouts and whether or not Glassman gets permission to use the names and pictures of dead soldiers to perpetuate the image of CrossFit through implied endorsement by various service members. So far there may be an lawsuit but no reference was given. THAT, I do take offence to.




			
				Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> God article. Say what he may about Arthur Jones and the marketing hype surrounding Nautilus, the HIT methodology of today is quite different from even Mike Mentzer's take on the subject (Mind and Body II). He for one went to some crazy extremes with low-volume, that did not work for me at all. Dr Ellington Darden is mentioned, but again, HIT has gone through an evolution even with him. The most current HIT methodology looks more like HiHi than anything else. If HIT is considered machine-centric, it is really only because, in being able to achieve momentary muscular failure to trigger a growth response, one needs a spotter or the ability to safely lower the weights.
> Personally, I have found that with the proper application of HIT principles, I have been able to increase weight, reps or both nearly every single time I have gone to the gym, and consistently so for far longer than just six weeks. And having done CrossFit sessions as well, I have not found it hard to achieve the posted results/rep ranges either.
> But here I agree with the author - everything works, as long as the basic principles are adhered to. Even in HIT one can stagnate and become adapted or overtrained thus failing to realise further results after the average six weeks. By adjusting the key variables (intensity, volume and frequency) progress should be steady for a long time. Most gym types are often too gung-ho about training and only feel progress if they are in the gym all the time. A lot of people pay lip service to rest. Result: a certain regime works for a while and the tapers off - with most people not understanding why this is.
> I can and I have bemoaned my genetics (as I am sure alot of others have as well), but while I have a hard time (no matter how I train) gaining weight, leg press results, for example, have gone from 270 lbs to nearly 800 lbs for 15 reps average. By going to momentary muscular failure, I am certain I have sent a signal of some kind to the system to get stronger. I guess in CrossFit the benchmark is time or rounds completed.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Ack. Didn't meant to come across as having taken any offence to your posting and the link to the article. A good, albeit short, take on the "extremes I guess." HIT at one point in time was almost the antithesis to Weider and high-volume, ie if "more is better" doesn't work, then "least is better" must. Brian D. Johnston and others have noted this way of thinking was just as fly-by-the-seats and irrational as the "more is better camp." What modern HIT proponents have tried to see is where the sweet spot for hypertrophy lies (even with advanced, experienced lifters (eg. Dorian Yates)). The "prescribed is best" philosophy is what drew me into reading more about HIT, and I have been an avid studier of the evolution of this mindset. All I am saying is that this mindset could (and maybe should) be applied to other exercise regimes, for the practioner to realise meaningful results for a long time.
I agree with the quote from the Ex Phys book, while it is quite broad in scope and could be miscontrued for "more is better" - where is the tipping point of diminishing returns?. However, the latest evolutions in HIT have gone away from the Heavy Duty extremes (1 set of one exercise in 1 week for advanced llifters) (Mike Mentzer applying the "least is best" mentality to the max). Dr. Ellington Darden and others recommend (and explaining why) to carry out full-body sessions while sticking to the key principles of the HIT rationale). If one looks at a typical full-body session, it is clear that a particular muscle group is in fact stimulated through multiple sets. Ie:
1 set - leg curl
1 set - leg extension
1 set - leg press
1 set - calf raises
etc etc fo the upper body
Bottom line - the HIT is 1 set only centric is too simplistic and good very easily be mocked as alazy man's workout. Further study and proper application demonstrates anything but.
"Why" is just if not more important than "what."
100% agreement with the issue of CrossFit names and endorsment issues.


----------



## Fusaki

> Seriously though, I didn't mean to attack your say of training. Individual differences. Do what works for you. My main issue is the Hero workouts and whether or not Glassman gets permission to use the names and pictures of dead soldiers to perpetuate the image of CrossFit through implied endorsement by various service members. So far there may be an lawsuit but no reference was given. THAT, I do take offence to.



From the Crossfit website:



> "Murph"
> 
> For time:
> 1 mile Run
> 100 Pull-ups
> 200 Push-ups
> 300 Squats
> 1 mile Run
> 
> In memory of Navy Lieutenant Michael Murphy, 29, of Patchogue, N.Y., who was killed in Afghanistan June 28th, 2005.
> 
> This workout was one of Mike's favorites and he'd named it "Body Armor". From here on it will be referred to as "Murph" in honor of the focused warrior and great American who wanted nothing more in life than to serve this great country and the beautiful people who make it what it is.
> 
> Partition the pull-ups, push-ups, and squats as needed. Start and finish with a mile run. If you've got a twenty pound vest or body armor, wear it.



I really don't think his family would overhear a crossfitter talk about "doing Murph" and be insulted by it. If I was killed in combat as one who was known to be dedicated to physical fitness I think my family would appreciate me being remembered in this way.

While it is _possible_ that Glassman trying to be a grave robber by capitalizing on the deaths of soldiers, I don't see this as very likely for a couple reasons:

-Crossfit is an "open source" style program with the development of exercises coming from the bottom just as much as from the top.  A deliberate attempt to manipulate people at the expense of a fallen soldier would require a conspiracy that reaches down to the lowest level of casual crossfitter.  It's possible that when my unit deploys on TF 1-10 someone will end up with a  workout named after him.  The workout will start as platoon PT and maybe one day it'll catch on and end up as a crossfit.com WOD. This is how crossfit works, and you can rest assured that our intentions are genuine.

-Crossfit has a HUGE military following.  IMHO army guys have some of the best bullshit detectors around.  If the intent of naming exercises after fallen soldiers was not for the sake of rememberance and inspiration, I think that most soldiers would detest Glassman as the lowest scum to walk the planet.  The reality of the situation is quite the opposite.  While some may call Glassman an egotistical, close minded, and rabid fanatic I have never heard of him referred to as one who was out to maliciously exploit us. I think that if soldiers were being done wrong, then soldiers wouldn't like it so much.

biosci, I really don't think it is the way you're saying it is.


----------



## jhohertz

It's "open source" because there is nothing new in it. If he tried to claim he invented any of it people would jump all over him. I haven't seen any open source license on any of the material such as Creative Commons or Gnu FDL. But then again in a different life I worked in IT using various open-source tools and met many open-source pioneers incl. Linus Torvalds. So I find the term thrown around a little bit too much.

A huge following means little or else McDonalds would be the best restaurant in the world. CrossFit is a business and yes, I believe Glassman likes to promote the idea that people in the army do nothing but CrossFit and that's it. 

There may be no outcry yet. But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth that he isn't (if he isn't) getting permission to use these soldiers (and yes, he is using them). I knew about the Murph one, it's different. 

So it's pretty much an unknown as to whether or not he gets permission then?



			
				Wonderbread said:
			
		

> From the Crossfit website:
> 
> I really don't think his family would overhear a crossfitter talk about "doing Murph" and be insulted by it. If I was killed in combat as one who was known to be dedicated to physical fitness I think my family would appreciate me being remembered in this way.
> 
> While it is _possible_ that Glassman trying to be a grave robber by capitalizing on the deaths of soldiers, I don't see this as very likely for a couple reasons:
> 
> -Crossfit is an "open source" style program with the development of exercises coming from the bottom just as much as from the top.  A deliberate attempt to manipulate people at the expense of a fallen soldier would require a conspiracy that reaches down to the lowest level of casual crossfitter.  It's possible that when my unit deploys on TF 1-10 someone will end up with a  workout named after him.  The workout will start as platoon PT and maybe one day it'll catch on and end up as a crossfit.com WOD. This is how crossfit works, and you can rest assured that our intentions are genuine.
> 
> -Crossfit has a HUGE military following.  IMHO army guys have some of the best bullshit detectors around.  If the intent of naming exercises after fallen soldiers was not for the sake of rememberance and inspiration, I think that most soldiers would detest Glassman as the lowest scum to walk the planet.  The reality of the situation is quite the opposite.  While some may call Glassman an egotistical, close minded, and rabid fanatic I have never heard of him referred to as one who was out to maliciously exploit us. I think that if soldiers were being done wrong, then soldiers wouldn't like it so much.
> 
> biosci, I really don't think it is the way you're saying it is.


----------



## MJP

biosci said:
			
		

> There may be no outcry yet. But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth that he isn't (if he isn't) getting permission to use these soldiers (and yes, he is using them). I knew about the Murph one, it's different.
> 
> So it's pretty much an unknown as to whether or not he gets permission then?



No Outcry yet?  The work-outs have been around for quite some time.  I agree with Wonderbread that army/LEO people are good BS detectors.  If he was misusing or using the images and names without some sort of permission there would be a plethora of forum postings and/or news articles on the subject.  The only reference I can come up with for Crossfit being sued was for some US navy guy that got Rhabo after a work out.  Even then Crossfit itself wasn't named in the lawsuit just the trainer.  IIRC from the articles on the whole thing Glassman testified for the plaintiff.

If it is such a huge concern for you, email Crossfit yourself and see what they have to say?


----------



## Fusaki

biosci said:
			
		

> It's "open source" because there is nothing new in it. If he tried to claim he invented any of it people would jump all over him. I haven't seen any open source license on any of the material such as Creative Commons or Gnu FDL. But then again in a different life I worked in IT using various open-source tools and met many open-source pioneers incl. Linus Torvalds. So I find the term thrown around a little bit too much.



Maybe crossfit doesn't fit the definition of open source like linux does, but thats not the point I'm trying to make here anyways.

My point is that _at least some of the time_ the push to name a Crossfit workout after an individual killed in combat is started by those who knew him.  I do not believe Glassman is picking names of KIA out of the news and tagging them to workouts.  I'm pretty sure that the actual _naming_ of the workouts is done at a much lower level, probably at the level of individual crossfit gyms and military sub-units. 

I don't have hard evidence of specific cases for Hero workouts, but this idea is central to the "Crossfit philosophy".



> A huge following means little or else McDonalds would be the best restaurant in the world. CrossFit is a business and yes, I believe Glassman likes to promote the idea that people in the army do nothing but CrossFit and that's it.



Again, not the point I'm trying to make.

Crossfit's popularity in the military that leads me to believe that few in the military are insulted by Crossfit's WOD names.


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## jhohertz

Can't be bothered. Just wondering if anyone here knew the answer and to get the CF thread going in a non-fanboy direction.  

I failed on both counts. I'll just leave it be.



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> No Outcry yet?  The work-outs have been around for quite some time.  I agree with Wonderbread that army/LEO people are good BS detectors.  If he was misusing or using the images and names without some sort of permission there would be a plethora of forum postings and/or news articles on the subject.  The only reference I can come up with for Crossfit being sued was for some US navy guy that got Rhabo after a work out.  Even then Crossfit itself wasn't named in the lawsuit just the trainer.  IIRC from the articles on the whole thing Glassman testified for the plaintiff.
> 
> If it is such a huge concern for you, email Crossfit yourself and see what they have to say?


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## MJP

Fine stomp away mad because no one will do your work for you.  You are the only one making a mountain out of an molehill.  Until you derailed the thread based on the "naming of some WODs", yours and other posts were very interesting to read.  Discerning points of view are welcome, hell encouraged but don't get mad and take your toys away because we have opposing views and choose to defend something.


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## jhohertz

I'm not stomping away mad I just don't want this thread to go in the direction it appears to be going. It was something that was bugging me and so I thought I'd throw it out there. I'm not really sure where the "don't get mad" stuff is coming from. If I appeared mad I'm sorry, I was just indifferent and not wanting to put any more energy into the thread in the direction it was going. To show there's no hard feelings  :cheers:



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> Fine stomp away mad because no one will do your work for you.  You are the only one making a mountain out of an molehill.  Until you derailed the thread based on the "naming of some WODs", yours and other posts were very interesting to read.  Discerning points of view are welcome, hell encouraged but don't get mad and take your toys away because we have opposing views and choose to defend something.


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## MJP

Cool cool..... It was the impresssion I got, and we know how great the internet is for actually reading what people mean.  No worries.  I just like the fvein of the thread so far.  I like Crossfit, and use it as my main source of workouts (mostly as it is fast and for the most part easy).  But like anyone that is serious about staying shape I like to look at different ideas and see how they stack up with what I am doing.  Koolaid come in all flavours and I like to mix mine up to get the best results.


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Easy?! - since when is any productive workout supposed to be easy?  

Oh - no need for complex equipment or spotters - very true. Still, the muscle-up and thrusters, for example, are anything but easy even just from a form aspect.

I have found that the CrossFit sessions are great for muscular endurance improvement (upping the lactic acid threshold) but swing very quickly into the aerobic side of the house. Not too great for hypertrophy of the fast twitch muscles that operate in the anaerobic level.


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## MJP

Easy in terms of general life, I am fairly busy with school, kids and all their associated activities.  Definatly not easy in terms of work-out.  If I come away not tired then I obviously didn't use the right intensity.


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Agreed 100%. I shudder when I see people in the gym lifting weights and chatting with someone at the same time - what a waste of time (unless the point of the gym session is purely to escape the cubicle life for a while.
I also shake my head at those who spend (waste) 2 hours or more doing their workouts, when better results can be achieved in 30 mins (very high-intensity back to back). Anyone who's worked with any kind of meaningful intensity could not go 1-hour plus full tilt.
With CrossFit and HIT, there should be no excuses from anyone that they can't find time to workout. That's lazy speak. Anyone can find 30 mins in a day every couple of days to get to the gym. Just need the right mindset to make those 30 mins meaningful and productive (sadly most people don't like the discomfort that comes from higher-intensity sessions and are reluctant to go back to that feeling time and time again.) Their loss.


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## jhohertz

Here's one that I don't think has been posted here. It's written by somebody with far more credentials than I have and points out where CrossFit is good and where it isn't. 

The AFM - CrossFit Final Report
http://www.cfpsa.com/en/psp/HumanPerformance/pdfs/THE%20CROSSFIT%20FINAL%20REPORT%20121106.pdf


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## punkd

Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> I have found that the CrossFit sessions are great for muscular endurance improvement (upping the lactic acid threshold) but swing very quickly into the aerobic side of the house. Not too great for hypertrophy of the fast twitch muscles that operate in the anaerobic level.



Crossfit aerobic? Sure they will throw in some longer runs now and again. But 200/400m sprints are anything but aerobic. Take a workout like fran, completed by the top crossfitters in 2 mins where the average weight lifter would probably take 10 minutes. I've hardly seen any metcon workouts that are aerobic. If you find the main site WOD's too easy than I suggest you try http://www.navyseals.com/crossfit-workout-day


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## The_Falcon

punkd said:
			
		

> Crossfit aerobic? Sure they will throw in some longer runs now and again. But 200/400m sprints are anything but aerobic. Take a workout like fran, completed by the top crossfitters in 2 mins where the average weight lifter would probably take 10 minutes. I've hardly seen any metcon workouts that are aerobic. If you find the main site WOD's too easy than I suggest you try http://www.navyseals.com/crossfit-workout-day



Again cherry picking, the main site try's to balance all the different modalities of fitness.  Not every workout is a Metcon workout in the vain of "Fran" (and incidentally the metcons aren't going to be aerobic anyways)  Now a chipper like Filthy 50's or Running with Angie, definately have aerobic components.


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Not trying to cherry pick here, just combination of personal experience and scientific literature. If we simply look at all the exercises as ways to contract muscle fibres to trigger a response (to said stimulus), we are subjecting these muscles to a load for a certain amount of time (or Time Under Tension/Time Under Load - TUT/TUL). Second, we all have a mix of Type 1, Type 2A and Type 2B muscle fibres (here is where genes bless us with either a larger number of fast twitch (sprinters/bodybuilders or more slow twitch (marathoners). Most people along the Bell curve have a good mix of both. But it is highly likely those with a the average mix have muscle fibre types unevenly spread across the body (ie personal example: slow twitch predominant in legs, fast twitch predominant in back/shoulders). What does this all mean? That the various fibre types require different levels of TUT (and correspondingly heavier/lighter resistance) to be trained in the optimal load/time window. And this is why a prescribed training regime to suit the individuals genetic tolerances is required (unless, as stated in the article I posted, we have the blind leading the blind, and get too old by the time we find the ideal workout plan).
So TUT - what does that mean in practice and why do I say that CrossFit sessions delve into the aerobic realm (unless you can prove to me that there are predominantly heavy weight, low rep, short session CrossFit sessions). As I have mentioned before (and are discussed in greater detail in the pdf posted by biosci, the three fundamentals of exercise are intensity (effort), volume (TUT or number of sets), and frequency (the rate of occurrence of training sessions). To trigger the growth/strength gain response, the intensity needs to be high and invariable (ie 100% effort). If the effort is, say, 90-95%, there is no requirement for the muscles to overcompensate, regardless of the number of sets or frequency performed. The body wants to stay in homeostasis, ie unchanged, as muscle gain is taxing on the system and requires more energy to maintain (hence atrophy after a certain amount of inactivity back to a "comfort" state). Progress is possible in lower intensity programs, but is much slower.
Now, volume - or TUT. if we are dealing with strength training (and NOT endurance training - not sure what your goals are with CrossFit), TUT and muscle fibre tolerances are critical to understand. If we want to stay in an anaerobic environment, TUT can't last very long - minimal 20 seconds to avoid lifting too heavy and risking injury. 120 second is max unless you want to enter the aerobic environment. Take a stopwatch and count the total TUT of any particular muscle group in a WOD and check if you are, one, exerting maximal intensity to trigger a response, and two, within the anaerobic window of TUT. Fast twitch muscles respond best with heavy weight, 30-45 seconds TUT as they can exert great force but tire out quickly (use of glycogen stores). Mixed types work optimally within the 60-70 second TUT range. Slow twitch can take a lot more volume (at reduced load of course) as they work in the 70-120 or beyond range (use of oxygen for fuel but smaller than fast twitch).
Bottom line, again depending on what your goals are, the incredible amount of reps asked for in at least the CrossFit WODs I have seen (I am a novice to this particular flavour of KooAid, I admit), means two things: while intensity or effort may feel high (and for some exercises such as thrusters and muscleups very well is high), most in-shape pers can achieve the rep counts given (esp if broken into groupings 25/25/25/25 = 100). However, most WODs are very high volume and seem to be geared to aerobic stimulus, wherein the fast-twitch fibres are going to lose the most, with mixed a close second. They may become slow-twitch like, but will never realise max strength potential.


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

biosci said:
			
		

> Here's one that I don't think has been posted here. It's written by somebody with far more credentials than I have and points out where CrossFit is good and where it isn't.
> 
> The AFM - CrossFit Final Report
> http://www.cfpsa.com/en/psp/HumanPerformance/pdfs/THE%20CROSSFIT%20FINAL%20REPORT%20121106.pdf



Good read and seems well balanced. Obviously the author has far greater credentials than myself in this realm, however, I do have to refer readers to Rational Strength Training: Principles and Casebook (and other IART resources http://www.exercisecertification.com/) for very strong arguments against Peridization (cover in an open-source link posted earlier) and 'explosive power' or 'plyometric' exercises (adherering to the laws of physics to achieve maximal training benefits while preveting injuries). In order not to violate copyright laws, I will not publish exerpts here.
The 'kipping' movements in CrossFit is as area where I have huge objections, and I refer to the Rational Strength Training chapter titled 'Physics, Mechanics and Safety.'

Of note, the AFM - CrossFit Report bibliography refers to National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) a number of times. I have read a good number of critiques against teh NSCA and their methodologies (both theories and certification process). I just found another article that may raise some eyebrows on NSCA, and what they stand for.
http://www.personaltrainerbusinesstoolbox.com/members/regulatingpersonaltraining.html

Also, the AFM - CrossFit author criticises the CrossFit method of arbitrary rep counts yet he implements the same method in the recommended Army/CrossFit implementation program, without explaining why. While making sound comments on CrossFitt and justifiably indicates its numerous fallacies, he goes on to implement the same problem-areas.


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## brendanhm1

I have a major problem with Crossfit. Myself and another guy I did it with both lost considerable gains in terms of Vo2 Max as tested using the beep/ 1.5mile run.

Pre-Crossfit I was running the 1.5 miler in 9. At this time I was doing AFM style training which includes careful guidlines as to distance and time for Interval training.

I then did Crossfit for about 2 months, upon testing my 1.5 mile time it was 9:45.

My theory is that for items like a 1.5 mile run you need to consistently be doing intervals at goal pace. Therefor your times will improve with practise. This is what the Army fitness manual had me doing.

However Crossfit has you doing intervals, but they aren't as structured and the "rest" periods usually involve doing pullups, presses etc.  Therefore your interval pace isn't as good.  I suppose one could argue that doing your intervals at the correct pace would give good results, but because of the intensity of the workouts and lack of rest period between intervals this is not possible.


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## meni0n

If your goal is to improve your 1.5mile time, then you should be doing 1.5mile runs with intervals. I found it best to supplement work outs with either CFendurance or just random interval runs.


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Similarly, as posted before, if you want ot become good at the CF EXPRES test, follwo a program (stimulus/rest principles ahered to) that incorporates the required exercises/movements. Ie. do the shuttlerun with the proper distance (20m) and the pivot motion (start/stop/start). Gradually build up the pace and time the intervals to the desired level/stage (which should be, at minimum, the exemption level for your age/gender).

Any number of CrossFitt or other programs will not adequately substitute for actual skill-specific training. Now, on the other hand, they may help in achieving the required number of pushups and situps.


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## Biggoals2bdone

First off BZ to Soldier1st, for the explanation earlier in the thread, read through the whole thing, and damn is it nice to see someone else with that kind of understanding, who will vocalize it.

And yes I do agree in general the Crossfit workouts lean more towards aerobic, in that you are not going to build significant mass or strength on this program, sure you will build some, but not nearly as much as you would on more strength and/or hypertrophy aimed workouts.  Simply the aim of CrossFit is to augment your strength/muscle endurance in other words your work capacity.

and to the person who mentioned his run time diminishing from changing up routines, that often happens, because being a great long distance runner is at the other end of the spectrum of being Very strong.  You can't be great at both

x2 for hating seeing ppl talk during sets, or reading magazines in between sets....i friggin hate that!!!


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## jhohertz

I saw a woman talking on her cell phone while on the sitting stationary bike for at least 30 minutes. Then her "trainer" brought her a Starbucks Coffee. There's just so much that's wrong with the whole situation. :brickwall:

And to bring back on topic. Here's an HIT guy's take on CrossFit. http://baye.com/crossfit/ 

I'm not a follower of either methodology but I have used similar techniques from time to time.



			
				Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> First off BZ to Soldier1st, for the explanation earlier in the thread, read through the whole thing, and damn is it nice to see someone else with that kind of understanding, who will vocalize it.
> 
> And yes I do agree in general the Crossfit workouts lean more towards aerobic, in that you are not going to build significant mass or strength on this program, sure you will build some, but not nearly as much as you would on more strength and/or hypertrophy aimed workouts.  Simply the aim of CrossFit is to augment your strength/muscle endurance in other words your work capacity.
> 
> and to the person who mentioned his run time diminishing from changing up routines, that often happens, because being a great long distance runner is at the other end of the spectrum of being Very strong.  You can't be great at both
> 
> x2 for hating seeing ppl talk during sets, or reading magazines in between sets....i friggin hate that!!!


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

DVessey said:
			
		

> Link to Army Fitness Manual and Combat Fitness Program website:
> 
> http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land_force_doctrine_training_system/ex_aita_trg/acim/courses/acim/acim.swf
> 
> Very cool resource (in my opinion). There are drop down menus on the bottom, for the CrossFit excercises select 'Combat Fitness Program' and then 'Excercises'.
> 
> 
> (Yes, I know I resurected(sp?) an old thread, but I figured it was the right place to put this. If you disagree, by all means start new one).
> 
> Cheers!



New link that works - short clips for each exercise.

http://ctc.gagetown.mil.ca/dlearn/Pan_Army_Projects/ACIM/courses/ACIM/ACIM.htm


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny

Years ago, I remember that the Army was experimenting with the CrossFit fitness program to see if it would be more effective than traditional PT. Did CrossFit ever end up working out and was it ever proven to be more effective than traditional PT?


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## Infanteer

The Combat Fitness Manual, as a supplementary guide to the Army Fitness Manual, was published using Crossfit as a guide.

PT is largely up to individual tastes, but Crossfit is popular in the CF (just like it is in the US).  For example, Brigade sporting competitions often have "Crossfit" competitions as well.


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## Armymedic

Crossfit is just a brand name. Some of its methodology and exercises have been adopted. 

High intensity workouts are now one of many tools for the imaginative to excite otherwise routine workouts.


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## ballz

BadEnoughDude said:
			
		

> was it ever proven to be more effective than traditional PT?



Define "traditional" PT? Jogging and calisthenics?

It certainly hasn't proven to make you "stronger than powerlifters, bigger than body builders, and faster than track athletes" like it advertised itself. But it is probably one of the most time and money efficient methods for well-rounded fitness.


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny

ballz said:
			
		

> Define "traditional" PT? Jogging and calisthenics?



You nailed it: jogging and calisthenics along with sit-ups, push-ups, chin-ups and ruck marches.


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## Mike92

Hey everyone,

I'm new here but I have been reading this forum for years. I'm currently in first year university and I'm hoping to join the CF after I graduate, as either an Infantry Officer or Infantry Soldier.

In my continuing search for job-related and task-specific fitness, I have come across Crossfit (which I'm sure everyone knows ) and the lesser known Crossfit Endurance (www.crossfitendurance.com, WFS).

Crossfit Endurance or CFE is meant for athletes who want to be good at Crossfit workouts and have all-around fitness, but who also want to compete in endurance sports. It includes little long slow distance work and a lot of high intensity intervals, tempo's and time trials. I have heard of positive reults from it but I have also heard negative ones as well.

If anyone has used it and would like to share their experiences, good or bad, that would be great! All thoughts and comments on the subject are welcome.

For those who serve and have served, Thank You.

With respect,

Michael K


ps. my apoligies for any material on the CFE website which is not WFS.


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## MJP

If you are doing endurance sports or long distance running then it is a great program.  I have used it for rugby and have a few friends that are marathoners that swear by it.  It is fairly intensive and you will notice decreased abilities in other areas of fitness due to its focus (not tremendous amounts but certainly enough to notice).  I personally wouldn't do it unless I had a reason to but that's just me.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Haven't seen this pot stirred for awhile. ;D


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## the 48th regulator

Helios Gracie, founder of Gracie Jiu Jitsu/BJJ


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