# What is wrong with our flag?



## Korus (22 Jan 2002)

"Tenant ordered to remove ‘offensive‘ Canadian flag" - Edmonton Journal 

This is not the first time it‘s happened in Edmonton either... Shows just how grateful some people are to be living in Canada.


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## rceme_rat (22 Jan 2002)

Any details?  Web link?


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## Korus (22 Jan 2002)

Check the title.. that was the weblink to the article...


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## rceme_rat (22 Jan 2002)

Thanks very much.  Didn‘t display differently on my screen until I scrolled over it.

Clips from the article:

"... landlord (ed note - Boardwalk Equities) ... order[ed] ... the Canadian flag out of his front window because it might offend non-Canadians or new immigrants."

" ... he wanted to express his patriotism and his support for Canadian troops who will soon leave the city for Afghanistan."

"MP for Edmonton Centre East had plenty to say about the matter.

‘It was the outrageous content of the company‘s explanation -- that some people might be upset -- that got me,‘ Canadian Alliance MP Peter Goldring said.

‘I would expect to hear something like that in Quebec, but not in Edmonton.‘ "

.............

Nice to see the MP supporting the tenant, but he sure did it in typical Reform foot-in-mouth style, didn‘t he?  Must be looking for another chance to renew tensions in Quebec.

I guess the tenant will have to check to see if the landlord can enforce the "proper draperies" rule.  What if he had a couple of flags sewn together to hang on a curtain rod???  

I‘m competely dumbfounded at the suggestion that people who have moved to Canada would be offended by seeing the Canadian flag.  My experience is that many immigrants are more patriotic about their chosen country than many native citizens who take it for granted.

Egad.


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## Infanteer (23 Jan 2002)

For once I agree with you, rat.
I would have told the landlord to piss up a rope.  Who would come to Canada seeking a new life and be offended by the single most representative symbol of that freedom?  The stupidity of people who have a legal right to education never ceases to amaze me....


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## Soldier of Fortune (23 Jan 2002)

If the Canadian flag offends anybody who lives in Canada/has a citizenship then they should just get the **** out.


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Jan 2002)

Then again, hanging a flag in a window is a severe show of disrespect; flags are not curtains and are not intended to be used as such - nor bedspreads, bathmats etc.


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## Mark Schiller (24 Jan 2002)

(Daniel Igali after winning gold)

This is what an immigrant did with our flag in the Olympics. Put it on the floor kissed and then ran around it three times. Others choose to wrap it around themselves. Others choose to run with it flowing behind them. This country needs to see more of this kind of love for the flag. If this fellow hung it in the window it‘s because the apartment didn‘t have a flag pole. Hats off to the young fellow for loving his country and a good kick in the A** for the landlord. Canadians in general are not flag wavers but "For those who served and who serve now" maybe we should be. O Canada eh


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## rceme_rat (24 Jan 2002)

Michael --

Exactly the point!   The irony is that he can‘t display the flag proudly and properly, but might display it improperly (as a curtain).

I just hope that the landlord receives sufficient feedback to show them when they are out of line - both for their decision regarding the flag, and for the incredible stupidity displayed in the reasoning behind it.


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## Korus (25 Jan 2002)

I‘ve noticed that many people (civies) do claim to be patriotic, but when it really comes down to it, they aren‘t...

I‘m somewhat envious of the US in the respect that they aren‘t afraid to show that they love their country, and aren‘t shuned when they do.


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## corporal (26 Jan 2002)

I agree with everyone of the comments,it should be taken up in radio andtelevision about patriotism or the lack of it in canada.Perceived or otherwise my impression after serving 14 yrs is that canadians just don‘t give a ****! excluding those that have served or are serving and im sure there are others.

It‘s just that because we have such a small force and so few in the country have served recently,it doesn‘t hit home the sacrifices involved,down in yhe states where i reside at present almost everyone i talk to has a relative or has lost one,so they can all relate.

Our countrys problem good or bad is that it has not been involved in a major conflict and the perception is that we are hiding behind the usa for our security,the first step i may add to losing our identity as a nation,no matter what is said i see in the future a strong possibility that we could become the 51st state! 

a thought i do not relish.


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## Korus (26 Jan 2002)

If people where more patriotic, and where as proud of the military as the US is of theirs, then maybe the politicians would try to use it to boost their popularity, and increase funding to the military, and try and bring it out of this nose dive...


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## Soldier of Fortune (27 Jan 2002)

http://www.pch.gc.ca/ceremonial-symb/Etiquette/flag_e.htm 

Here is a link to the Canadian Heritage site on flag etiquette. Notice what it says under "projected from a building," would this incident fall under this? 

Also does anybody know if Canadian would salute the Union Jack, or any Flags of International Organizations (such as UN, Nato, etc.)?


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## delta_whiskey (27 Jan 2002)

i dont think flag etiquette is the problem there. it says "displayed horizontally or at an angle from a window or balcony, the canton must point outward." but do you really think that a landlady who orders someone to take down his national flag because it might "offend" some ppl would know that? she doesnt care! and no ones going to sue you for sewing the flag on your backpack or something, at least we hope not.

canadians need to take pride in their country, period.


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## bossi (31 Jan 2002)

A friend of mine is a photographer whose work often appears in the Toronto Sun - Her latest project is a postcard for the troops (should appear in the Sun this weekend).

If I can figure out how to insert the picture, I hope you‘ll agree this is definitely a flag to salute!


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2002)

OK, I can get behind that! (in front, behind, ontop, underneath.....


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## Infanteer (1 Feb 2002)

I don‘t know about the flag, but I wouldn‘t mind displaying her horizontally or at an angle from a window or balcony.


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## ajp (5 Nov 2009)

I'll resurect this thread as I did not see other comments like this on my search, and am open to be corrected.

I can not believe it today, on my way home I notice TWO Canadian Flags adourning a window in the PMQ's, as curtains.  (DELETED Phrase for Respect ) TWO separate houses (PMQ's) are presenting their flags as curtains on the same road in Oromocto...and I didn't go looking, but hey do stand out!


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## mover1 (5 Nov 2009)

Usually a good way to check if its a single guy living there or a teenage boys bedroom. 
White trash usually go with a confederate flag. 
I think to myself "there is a real looser" when i pass by those palces.
Honestly though I thought there was a base standing order or even a town by-law in Oromocto forbidding the use fo flags as curtains. 
You may want to check it out.


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## PMedMoe (5 Nov 2009)

I agree with mover1.  Perhaps a chat with the MPs is in order?  When I was in Petawawa there was a guy in PMQs doing the same thing.  One day the MPs showed up, next thing you know, the flags were down.

Of course, that wasn't his only violation and he got kicked out of the PMQ and subsequently, the military.

Whether or not it is a Base Standing Order or a town by-law shouldn't matter.  Hanging a Canadian flag inappropriately is a disgrace.


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## ajp (5 Nov 2009)

I am digging for more, but I know the MP's in Gagetown hold no power off the base, I am sure thats in threads here.  I know the rule is somewhere in the CFHA paperwork, and I will post if someone doesn't beat me to it.  

I looked (read with sarcasm) and totally didn't see how to hang the Canadian Flag as a curtain on a few web sites.  I did like this one for the details.
http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/etiqtt/101-eng.cfm


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## X-mo-1979 (5 Nov 2009)

Your correct AJP.The RCMP police the PMQ patch.It was part of some deal to make the RCMP area bigger to make the super cop shop possible out by the highway.
CFHA would be your way to go,they will just send out their generic "fix this" letter and do a follow up.

And here's a little test for you all....if someone is using cardboard,taprs to block out their windows...they may be doing ______ (rhymes with rugs).It's a classic give away.


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## ajp (5 Nov 2009)

X-Mo (and read with sarcasm again) I Can't Immagine that happens in the Qs


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## X-mo-1979 (5 Nov 2009)

;D


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## mariomike (5 Nov 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Hanging a Canadian flag inappropriately is a disgrace.



Absolutely, Moe. I remember when I was ten years old the very special assembly we had in the auditorium at school to introduce us to it. The flag we fly now, I mean. It's recognized and respected around the world.  
Edit: That was the year, 1965, when we got the "new" flag.  
Incidentally, I notice that Prince Charles is wearing *two* poppies. I presume one for England and one for Canada? If so, it's a nice touch.


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## vonGarvin (5 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> And here's a little test for you all....if someone is using cardboard,taprs to block out their windows...they may be doing ______ (*rhymes with rugs*).It's a classic give away.


They are doing mugs?  :endnigh:

Actually, I have never been happier to be out of the Q's.  As for dude, if he/she is subject to the NDA, then he can be ordered to take down the flag, lest he be charged under 129 (conduct prejudice to the good order and discipline, etc).


> *Any* act, conduct, disorder or neglect to the prejudice of good order and discipline is an offence and every person convicted thereof is liable to dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty’s service or to less punishment.



That's how I would look at it, if I were dude's superior.


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## Danjanou (5 Nov 2009)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> That's how I would look at it, if I were dude's superior.



You're the Dude's superior? That's so kewl man. 






Sorry couldn't resist.

As for the flag. There is a fine line between disrespect and just not knowing. Some like the guy in the article mean well but are just not up on all aspects of protocal. Not everyone has access to he with the large piece of lumber under his arm who can walk on water and knows all such important lore.  8)

The flag on the pole outside my house is displayed properly and with the utmost respect an reverence. In fact I recently replaced it as it was getting a bit faded.  It's kind of like poppies, not everyone knows that it should be on the left side, but I'd rather see someone wearing it on the wrong side rather than not wearing one at all. People for the most part mean well.


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## Jungle (5 Nov 2009)

ajp said:
			
		

> X-Mo (and read with sarcasm again) I Can't Immagine that happens in the Qs



Yeah, well... imagine again, it's happened.


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## mellian (5 Nov 2009)

I am always amused at people being so picky in how a flag is presented or treated. I understand protocol/etiquette and giving respect to our flag, yet I take pride at the fact that we can do whatever we want with our flag without legal retribution as a form of representation of the sort of freedoms we have in Canada. 

I even rub that point to friends and acquaintances in the states that if I want to turn a flag (or more) into a dress for Canada Day or some other event, I can. If my team would like to sign our names on the flag and present to a league in the states or anywhere else, we can. If some folks would like to burn the Canadian flag to make some kind of political point, they can. Why? Because Canada is awesome and so is our flag. 

Talking about giving a flag to one of the leagues in the states, when we did in New Jersey and they put it up, they realize theirs was smaller. So they went to find and put up a bigger one right after. 

Yay for one of the coolest flags in the world.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Nov 2009)

Something like this?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/2/2b/Attention_Whore.jpg


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## X-mo-1979 (6 Nov 2009)

:nod:


Except larger and sitting in a dark room behind a glowing monitor.


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## AC 011 (6 Nov 2009)

:rofl:


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## mariomike (6 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> You know over the past few weeks I have been on here a lot more than usual due to sickness.



Hey x-mo, glad to see you have time for the computer, but not that way! I hope you feel better soon.


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## mellian (6 Nov 2009)

What can I post that does not require some kind of military knowledge or experience? 

The thread is about the flag and how it is used, not about myself. Think I am an attention whore or a "quiet" troll, then stop giving me attention and take the bait. It is the best method in dealing with them, not call them out and goad them to shoot themselves in the foot until a mod closes the thread and possibly ban them. 

So yes, yay the Canadian Flag!


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## vonGarvin (6 Nov 2009)

Mellian:
I too am an attention whore, so there's nothing wrong with that, _per se_.  

Anyway, regarding our country's flag, there is protocol, and the protocol of which we speak is just that: strongly recommended suggestions.  But this isn't about civilians wearing the flag, signing it, or what have you.  This is about military members improperly (according to protocol) displaying the flag.  Remember, for us military folk, we even have to salute the flag, we wear it on our uniforms, and in some cases, our caskets are covered with it when we return from war.  So, for a military person to use it as a curtain, wall hanging, whatever, is improper for us.  And we view said displays by non-military folk to be disrespectful.  Hence our reactions on here.

I hope this helps explain our position a bit better.


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## Neill McKay (6 Nov 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> I am always amused at people being so picky in how a flag is presented or treated. I understand protocol/etiquette and giving respect to our flag, yet I take pride at the fact that we can do whatever we want with our flag without legal retribution as a form of representation of the sort of freedoms we have in Canada.



You're correct that the law allows a private citizen to do whatever he or she wants with a Canadian flag.  But using it as a curtain in a military accommodation is wrong on two fronts:

- It violates the proper use of the flag.  That may not be illegal, but it's still wrong or, at the very least, in poor taste.  (The law doesn't provide the answers to all of life's questions.  It's not illegal to close a door in the face of a little old lady who has her arms full of shopping, but few would argue that you shouldn't instead hold the door open for her.)

- It probably violates the orders or regulations that govern the military accommodation.  Any time I've ever stayed in a barracks there's been a policy against displaying any flag in the windows.  I've never lived in a PMQ but I'd be surprised if there weren't a similar policy for them.


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## SeanNewman (6 Nov 2009)

mover1 said:
			
		

> "there is a real *looser*" when i pass by those palces.


 ;D

I'll add that to my list of awesome spelling errors like "Your stupid".


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## mellian (6 Nov 2009)

Right or wrong, whether I am or not, it is still bloody annoying when right from the first post, I get some people respond to _me_ about _me_ instead of discussing the _topic_, which eventually results into recceguy or another Mod to lock the thread due to the derailment. Worse when Mods themselves do this, who should know better about feeding and baiting trolls as some believe I am. 

Anyway...

I understand protocol and what it means to those in the military or those outside of it like the government. The part that amuses me is people believing those not following protocol automatically mean they intentionally disrespect it, when there is different ways in showing one's pride in their flag and country. Yes, there is rules to be followed, but does not mean one is anti-flag or anti-Canada if they break them, or they do not follow protocol.


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## Steel Badger (6 Nov 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> I am always amused at people being so picky in how a flag is presented or treated. I understand protocol/etiquette and giving respect to our flag, yet I take pride at the fact that we can do whatever we want with our flag without legal retribution as a form of representation of the sort of freedoms we have in Canada.
> 
> I even rub that point to friends and acquaintances in the states that if I want to turn a flag (or more) into a dress for Canada Day or some other event, I can.



  Yet another example of Mellian's disconnect with the cultural values of the CF. It will be one hell of a culture shock for her if she gets as far as  CFLRS.


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## ballz (6 Nov 2009)

I know this thread was started in 2002 and the current discussion has moved away from this, but

Why didn't the person challenge it in court as acting against his freedom of expression? 

I'm sure if an immigrant had a foreign country's flag up in their window, and hell all the power to them, and a landlord told them to take it down, that's where the case would end up.


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## mellian (6 Nov 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> I know this thread was started in 2002 and the current discussion has moved away from this, but
> 
> Why didn't the person challenge it in court as acting against his freedom of expression?
> 
> I'm sure if an immigrant had a foreign country's flag up in their window, and hell all the power to them, and a landlord told them to take it down, that's where the case would end up.



That is because the person was living in military accommodations and they strictly follow the flag protocol and etiquette, as the military is representing and fighting for the flag and country.

http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/etiqtt/index-eng.cfm

So going to court over it with the military would be quite silly.


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## ballz (6 Nov 2009)

Talking about the original article, thanks for posting a link that was already posted in this thread though. :


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## vonGarvin (6 Nov 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> I understand protocol and what it means to those in the military or those outside of it like the government. *The part that amuses me is people believing those not following protocol automatically mean they intentionally disrespect it*, when there is different ways in showing one's pride in their flag and country. Yes, there is rules to be followed, but does not mean one is anti-flag or anti-Canada if they break them, or they do not follow protocol.


I'm glad I amuse you.  

Now, for serving member's we (at least I) *do* believe that if protocol for the flag is not followed, it _is_ disrespectful; automatically at that.  I suppose that we all have our prejudices.  I wouldn't have to explain to a fellow-serving member how I would come to that automatic belief.


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## Stukov (6 Nov 2009)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Yet another example of Mellian's disconnect with the cultural values of the CF. It will be one hell of a culture shock for her if she gets as far as  CFLRS.



I wasn't aware ad hominem was now an accepted use of logic in an argument against an idea.


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## Steel Badger (6 Nov 2009)

Stukov said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware ad hominem was now an accepted use of logic in an argument against an idea.



   Interesting comment Stukov, but I am not suggesting that I dislike Mellian and therefore any claim made by her is false; I am suggesting there is little congruency between the cultural values of the CF and her perception of same.

Cheers


SB


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## Stukov (6 Nov 2009)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Interesting comment Stukov, but I am not suggesting that I dislike Mellian and therefore any claim made by her is false; I am suggesting there is little congruency between the cultural values of the CF and her perception of same.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> ...



From what I've gathered so far, in the context of this thread, the only individual who has portrayed an idea that is not the norm (on the protocols of flag handling) on this forum is Mellian. Regardless of her intention, Mellian presented an argument to the rest of those individuals reading and responding to this thread presumably to begin a discussion or debate. Your original comment had absolutely nothing to do with the argument Mellian presented and only created a stigma against Mellian's idea by directly stigmatizing Mellian. By responding publicly in such a manner, you promoted no objective view of the issue in hand. At times, I find the argument from authority to be an incredibly blinding force on matters of protocol.


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## Steel Badger (6 Nov 2009)

With respect, Mellian has stigmatized herself in numerous threads.

My comment still stands, as do my observations as a serving member.


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## vonGarvin (6 Nov 2009)

Stukov said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware ad hominem was now an accepted use of logic in an argument against an idea.


It shouldn't be; however, it is _de facto_.  Check out question period any time.  "Attack the plan, not the man" was the mantra in staff college, yet here we are.


Anyway, going back on topic: No, there is nothing wrong with our flag.


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## krustyrl (6 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Already done.


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## SeanNewman (6 Nov 2009)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> No, there is nothing wrong with our flag.



Particularly as a lower back tattoo


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## Neill McKay (6 Nov 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> The part that amuses me is people believing those not following protocol automatically mean they intentionally disrespect it, when there is different ways in showing one's pride in their flag and country. Yes, there is rules to be followed, but does not mean one is anti-flag or anti-Canada if they break them, or they do not follow protocol.



I can certainly accept that many -- probably most -- breeches of flag protocol come from a lack of knowledge rather than any conscious effort to poke the country in the eye.  I suppose there is an expectation, realistic or not, that CF members will generally know better.


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## mellian (6 Nov 2009)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> I can certainly accept that many -- probably most -- breeches of flag protocol come from a lack of knowledge rather than any conscious effort to poke the country in the eye.  I suppose there is an expectation, realistic or not, that CF members will generally know better.



Agreed, a long with government and public funded institutions. Not so much for the average Canadian, adult or not.


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## MARS (6 Nov 2009)

Members of the CF spend their careers serving, in a lot of cases fighting for, and in some cases dying for...ideals.  Ideals such as "freedom".  These ideals sometimes take the form of symbols - such as the National Flag.  Respect for and adherence to these ideals and their associated symbols are drilled into us from the very beginning.   Not so for your average adult civlian.  They get up everyday, generally speaking, and go do a job that is not based on ideals, but on some sort of tangible reward, usually in the form of a salary.  That kind of sentitment  - actually, the lack of any devition to an ideal and the consequential lack of overt respect for the flag - simply annoys most of us in the CF, but it is something we can appreciate - that freedom - even if we find it distasteful to whatever degree. 

For CF members, "breaches of potocol" are, and should be taken very seriously.  Especially, as is the case here, when it concerns our national flag.  It is arguably  the most important, tangible symbol of our efforts and our sacrifices.  We drape the coffins of our dead with it.  There is no "lack of knowledge" on our part and there is thus no excuse.  The expectation that a CF member should and would know better IS realistic.  That is why it does more than annoy us - it tends to incense us, or at least really upset us.


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## PMedMoe (6 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Particularly as a lower back tattoo



You mean like this?







Now, I know it's not really our "flag" but the maple leaf is there.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Nov 2009)

Quick, some body get a tan!!! 


Mellian, are you sure about all those poor oppressed Americans?

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm


> Are there penalties for violating the Flag Code?
> 
> No. The Flag Code serves as a guide to be followed on a purely voluntary basis to insure proper respect for the flag. The Supreme Court has ruled that politically motivated violations of the Flag Code are protected by the First Amendment.
> 
> The Flag Code has no provision for enforcement. No fines, no penalties. There is nothing law enforcement can do when the Flag Code is broken.




http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj111-8



> Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States authorizing the Congress and the States to prohibit the act of desecration of the flag of the United States and to set criminal penalties for that act.


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## PMedMoe (6 Nov 2009)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quick, some body get a tan!!!



Somebody or some body?  I'm not dead.......yet.   

Nah, I don't tan anyway.  Burn only.  Kind of like my cooking.   :-\


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## mellian (6 Nov 2009)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quick, some body get a tan!!!
> 
> Mellian, are you sure about all those poor oppressed Americans?



I stand corrected. No, was not hundred percent sure, but no one from the states corrected me. I always got the impression way more frown upon there than here.


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## mellian (6 Nov 2009)

Are you done?


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## combat_medic (6 Nov 2009)

Personal attacks, deserved, ad hominem or otherwise are NOT ok. The posts in question have been deleted and the topic is now locked.

*Milnet.ca Staff*

As a note, there are certain members who seem to have all the threads they participate in getting locked. Anyone heard the expression "the common denominator in all your failed relationships is you."? Everyone needs some time in their corners to re-evaluate how they are coming across.


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## Loachman (6 Nov 2009)

MARS said:
			
		

> Ideals such as "freedom".  These ideals sometimes take the form of symbols - such as the National Flag.



If our flag symbolizes "freedom", does not "freedom" include using our flag as one wishes - beyond the blatantly disrespectful? Or does it only symbolize "freedoms" that some people agree with?

And where does one draw the line? Each of us, probably, parallel to, and at varying distances from, others' lines.

Would the "lower back tattoo" previously mentioned be a sign of disrespect, or of patriotism? I would take it as an expression of the latter, but, if the former, why? I've seen soldiers with flags incorporated into their tattoos. Is that disrespectful? Or is it okay on some body parts and not others, ie arms okay, lower back not so much? I have no objection to the lower back, but would find inking it over crotch or butt, so that certain not-for-prime-time-viewing anatomical features figure prominently and centrally, definitely so.

Burning it, ripping it, stomping it into mud, and urinating on it most assuredly shows great disrespect against us as a country and a people, because our flag symbolizes us.

Using a flag as curtains strikes me as exceedingly tacky, but I don't feel that way about displaying it in a window. What's the difference? I haven't quite decided myself.

We had a flag in KAF with multiple signatures of supportive members of some group (I cannot remember which) all over it. Techically, that is wrong, but nobody faulted those people - we took it as it was meant: a symbol of patriotism and support.

Is it an actual flag itself, being used for something other that being tied to a pole, that is objectionable, or is it anything that looks like a flag? If the latter, then some of you need to be talking to all of those who make, sell, and use folding lawn chairs in red-and-white with a maple leaf on them, beach towels, T-shirts, mugs, and a bazillion other items (yes, I know, invariably made in China) that proud Canadians use daily to express their patriotism. If it is wrong to hang a flag in a window (whether for display or function), then surely it must be wrong to sit in it, lie upon it, or drink tea out of it, nein? Can a flag-like item, such as a painting of one, be mounted on a wall? Why/why not? How about a flag in a frame?

Perhaps it's just wrong for Mellian to talk about it.

But that flag symbolizes her freedom as much as it symbolizes every other Canadian's.

On the subject of Mellian, some people seem to set themselves up here from the start as a convenient target of opportunity. Reasons vary. Sometimes it stems from a blatantly offensive or stupid first post (or posts; learning is slow for certain people), and sometimes it stems from an innocent misunderstanding. Perhaps the poster did not explain his/her idea perfectly, or perhaps the reader did not read it properly. Regardless, a pack mentality seems to form and responses to that person's postings begin to come more from presumption, habit, and instinct than any higher mental function.

_*Remember*_, this is one of the most imperfect forms of communication ever. Should soemthing offend you, read it carefully and make sure whether or not it was intended to offend. Chances are, it was not. Seek clarification politely if unsure. Give the poster the benefit of the doubt.

Mellian's posts seem to inspire a greater negative response in some people. She frequently discusses things which are completely foreign to some people, and this seems to generate discomfort in them. Her logic has sometimes been called into question, and that is valid. I do not recall, however, any disrespectful postings on her part.


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## Loachman (6 Nov 2009)

My apologies for posting through the lock.

I did not realize that the lock was in place when I hit "send" on my last post - that one was inadvertent.

This post, however, is advertent: _*Next time I see a post like the one that was removed and caused the lock there will be an immediate ban*_.

Nobody has the right to violate somebody's persec, even if they jeopardize it themselves.

It was also an extremely low blow.


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