# Tradition Surrounding Fallen Soldiers Kit



## Pieman (6 Oct 2008)

From what I understand, kit from a fallen soldier is put back into circulation.

I am curious because there are lots of little superstitious things in army culture. 

I suspect it can be viewed both ways: It is viewed as a bad omen, kit is kind of like 'dead man's gun' or it is an honorable thing to obtain kit from a fallen soldier. (That is the view I choose to take) 

Traditionally, does anyone know if it is it considered a good thing or a bad thing to receive kit from a soldier who has fallen in battle? Any literary or historical examples of this would be interesting.


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Oct 2008)

Pieman said:
			
		

> From what I understand, kit from a fallen soldier is put back into circulation.
> 
> I am curious because there are lots of little superstitious things in army culture.
> 
> ...



I can see your point but I ask you this...after the Stores types clean and repair the kit how would you know?


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## HItorMiss (6 Oct 2008)

The SAS have a wonderful tradition of Auctioning off all the members pers kit, usualy at inflated prices  

The money going to the Soldiers family/widow, I like this way myself


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

If the kit is a biohazard (ie blood etc) it is not cleaned and put back into circulation ... rather we remove it permanently from circulation and dispose of properly.

Just so you know.

Before anyone starts thinking that occurs ...


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## Pieman (6 Oct 2008)

> I can see your point but I ask you this...after the Stores types clean and repair the kit how would you know?


Was issued a piece of kit with the arid name tag still on it, name written on the label, and it is caked with this clay like dust. Was given minimal cleaning it seems. Could be another person with the same name. Don't know for sure either way. 

It has got me wondering whether or not it would be considered a good or bad thing traditionally if a piece of kit did turn out to be from a fallen soldier.


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

Pieman said:
			
		

> Was issued a piece of kit with the arid name tag still on it, name written on the label, and it is caked with this clay like dust. Was given minimal cleaning it seems. Could be another person with the same name. Don't know for sure either way.
> 
> It has got me wondering whether or not it would be considered a good or bad thing traditionally if a piece of kit did turn out to be from a fallen soldier.



Did you get this kit in-theatre?


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## HItorMiss (6 Oct 2008)

Hey Vern just so you are aware,They haven't really been that good at the disposing thing....

I got my boots back that were less then biohazard free same with my TV and some other pieces of kit.


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## Fraser.g (6 Oct 2008)

Kit that is collected at the Roll 3 MMU in KAF are usualy disposed of in the incinerator if they are contaminated. In one instance, the uniform was not searched well enough before being sent for disposal...The M67 did a fantastic job of breaking the incinerator for a while ;D


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Hey Vern just so you are aware,They haven't really been that good at the disposing thing....
> 
> I got my boots back that were less then biohazard free same with my TV and some other pieces of kit.



Dude, they were yours. Did you go exchange them? I would have; and, if you did try to exchange your kit and they wouldn't do so for you ... I'd have lost it.

I'm talking about handing out your blood soaked kit to someone else. I've got no issues with sucking my own fingertip when it bleeds, but someone else's -- nah.


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

RN PRN said:
			
		

> Kit that is collected at the Roll 3 MMU in KAF are usualy disposed of in the incinerator if they are contaminated. In one instance, the uniform was not searched well enough before being sent for disposal...The M67 did a fantastic job of breaking the incinerator for a while ;D



Ouch.


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## Pieman (6 Oct 2008)

> Did you get this kit in-theatre?


No. I take it none of the kit comes back with the unit from theater? Makes sense.  Have they done that always? The kit was a field pack, so perhaps they used it to bring some of his stuff back?... In reality it is probably not kit from the person I was suspecting. 

Still, I think it is a compelling topic.


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## HItorMiss (6 Oct 2008)

Vern I was about to add "Granted it's my own blood", but sadly it wasn't just my blood.

Though to be fair all biohazard contaminated kit is supposed to be destroyed, so really I shouldn't have got any kit back, they have no way of knowing who's blood it is right, I mean it wasn't just mine.

Though maybe it was during the time the incinerator was "Down for maintenance" LMAO


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## HItorMiss (6 Oct 2008)

I think I have totaly side tracked this topic LOL


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## GDawg (6 Oct 2008)

Pieman, PM inbound. Me and the boys I deployed with are looking for a small pack that belonged to one of the fallen.


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Vern I was about to add "Granted it's my own blood", but sadly it wasn't just my blood.
> 
> Though to be fair all biohazard contaminated kit is supposed to be destroyed, so really I shouldn't have got any kit back, they have no way of knowing who's blood it is right, I mean it wasn't just mine.
> 
> Though maybe it was during the time the incinerator was "Down for maintenance" LMAO



No, it _should_ have been destroyed. You _should_ have been given a receipt for it which would then enable it to be struck off your charge and then re-issued.


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## Fusaki (6 Oct 2008)

> I can see your point but I ask you this...after the Stores types clean and repair the kit how would you know?



Painted rifles are like snowflakes. They're both very pretty.

I mean... uhhh... each is unique. It's not long before a new guy drawing his rifle for the first time finds out who the previous owner was.


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

Pieman said:
			
		

> No. I take it none of the kit comes back with the unit from theater? Makes sense.  Have they done that always? The kit was a field pack, so perhaps they used it to bring some of his stuff back?... In reality it is probably not kit from the person I was suspecting.
> 
> Still, I think it is a compelling topic.



Actually I was thinking that perhaps someone exchanged it in theatre and the suppies didn't do their jobs and make sure it was clean when the troop turned it in.

Items belonging to the Fallen are packed up, itemized, and most often - repatriated in total (unless biohazard of course, then they are supposed to be destroyed via incineration in-theatre) - to the home unit location where the Assisting Officer or other designee from the Unit effects the return of that kit (ie "posessions")(along with other kit at member's permanent residence) on behalf of the family.

Quite often the family will request to keep "this" or "that" as a memento and 99 times out of 100, the items will be left with the family (there are some items that can not be left with them of course). 

After the return from the docs is done, untrackable items (or items that can not be accounted for) are struck off charge and sent for CF152 action, but the member's IA (Clothing doc account) is brought down to "zero" holdings. A print out of the "zero" holdings clothing doc is then printed off, certified signed by the Clothing Supervisor and then given to the Assisting Officer for inclusion into the BOI file. We then render the service number "inactive" on the system, remove the hard copy docs from the file cabinet, seal them up, and send to archives. 

Most clothing is then sent for destruction - save helmets, gas masks etc.

It's probably the saddest job one can do in clothing stores. Certainly makes you think how lucky you are to be there.


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## HItorMiss (6 Oct 2008)

Who's it was, what happened to said guy, the stuff said guy did with it etc etc..

Probably a really good rifle too....


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

GDawg said:
			
		

> Pieman, PM inbound. Me and the boys I deployed with are looking for a small pack that belonged to one of the fallen.



PM inbound to you too.


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## HItorMiss (6 Oct 2008)

And then there are those that are wounded, and return to theater

My Doc's are a total mess I mean a serious mess even after 2 years I need to set up an appointment with the IC clothing to go through it all but I am just to bloody busy.


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> And then there are those that are wounded, and return to theater
> 
> My Doc's are a totaly mess I mean a serious mess even after 2 years I need to set up an appointment with the IC clothing to go through it all but I am just to bloody busy.



Just go in and ask for a copy of your clothing docs. Tell them to book you an appointment for a doc verification while you're there. Specificly, ask for a "Long form" print. When they run the r,cdb121a to print them off - tell them to put an "L" in the form block. 

That way, you get the "long" description of each stock number and item (giving the specific size etc) rather than just a "boots, combat". Much easier for you guys to decipher if you have the long form sitting in front of you. Seems only us suppies can read (decipher) the "S" short form descriptions.

Then, sit down with your docs at home & go through your docs line by line. Make sure you take into account the quantities listed as well.

If you have "Boots, combat, MkIII, size 7.5E X 2 pair" on your charge, but you only have one pair - cross out the qty 2 on your docs and switch to a "1" for example. If you have none - then cross out the qty 2 and switch it to a zero. 

Write up a short "Stat Dec" explaining the circumstances ie: "My docs are all fucked up because I deployed, repatriated, recovered, redployed, and some asshat suppie didn't do the paperwork right the first time. I certify that the quantities and holdings given on the attached list are a true reflection of my clothing account".  Include as a ref, the copy of your clothing docs: Ref: A12 345 678 Pte Bloggins Clothing Docs (copy attached).

Put your signature block at the bottom and that of your lowest level Officer in your CoC who can certify Stat Decs.

Go back for your appointment and take your docs and your signed Stat Dec with you. The suppie doing your doc verification with you can then sit there and adjust your docs to put on the appropriate qtys etc while you wait.


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## Pieman (6 Oct 2008)

> Who's it was, what happened to said guy, the stuff said guy did with it etc etc..
> 
> Probably a really good rifle too....


I am hesitant to post this soldiers name online unless I can confirm if it was his pack or not. The soldier I am thinking it is sounds like he was one hell of a rifle for sure.



> After the return from the docs is done, untrackable items (or items that can not be accounted for) are struck off charge and sent for CF152 action, but the member's IA (Clothing doc account) is brought down to "zero" holdings. A print out of the "zero" holdings clothing doc is then printed off, certified signed by the Clothing Supervisor and then given to the Assisting Officer for inclusion into the BOI file. We then render the service number "inactive" on the system, remove the hard copy docs from the file cabinet, seal them up, and send to archives.


Quite the process. Would info still be acessable on the computer after all that?


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2008)

Pieman said:
			
		

> I am hesitant to post this soldiers name online unless I can confirm if it was his pack or not. The soldier I am thinking it is sounds like he was one hell of a rifle for sure.
> Quite the process. Would info still be acessable on the computer after all that?



We can see it in our history files, but no one can access to effect transmissions to/from that service number.  The only way one could do that would be to reactivate it ... but why?? We would also see it in relation to running queries/histories on specific stock numbers should a deceased member have happened to have had that stock number on his charge at any given point in time.


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## ballz (11 Nov 2008)

This is a complete rookie question but I think it's at least in the appropriate place, even if the thread seems a bit derailed from the title.

What is / were the unwritten rules regarding kit for the fallen? Fallen comrades, and fallen enemies? Obviously these things would have changed or evolved from the course of WW1 to nowadays. Maybe I just suck at google but I can't find anything very concrete about how it was viewed. I would suspect it was much more acceptable back in the day to take what was needed from a fallen comrade or enemy, be it ammunition or a knife or whatever.... Now it is frowned upon big time? What about a deceased enemy? I suspect their are written rules about all this stuff just as much as their are unwritten rules no?

Can anybody shed some light on it? Sorry if I'm being ignorant, I'm just trying to develop a clear picture.


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## SeaKingTacco (11 Nov 2008)

My only experience (direct) with deceased service members is now over 20 years old.  At that time, all of the Member's personal possessions were cataloged, packaged and shipped to the next of kin.  All government owned kit was turned in to clothing stores.

If you are thinking of the scene in Master and Commander when all of the deceased sailor's kit is auctioned off- those days are gone.


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## ballz (11 Nov 2008)

I've never even heard of that movie/book/whatever it is....

I'm just trying to get an idea of how it all works, mostly out of curiosity, i think my folklore class has made me ask these kind of questions. So issued kit gets taken back and reissued, as long as its not contaminated in some way or rendered useless, and personal kit goes to the next of kin... Gotcha...

But of course in earlier wars, when warfare was much different, this couldn't be the case? When you've got such a huge number of soldiers on both sides KIA, it must have been handled differently no?


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## SeaKingTacco (11 Nov 2008)

I suppose- but I've never been in an "earlier war", so you've got me.  All I know is what I've done.


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## Good2Golf (11 Nov 2008)

As others have noted, serviceable kit is returned to circulation.  

Sometimes this can lead to an eerie situation: a friend through flight training was issued kit that had been returned into service from a deceased member's returned gear (we knew because of a particular mark left on the gear by a unit badge and the name & last 3 written on the NSN label).  Just over a year later, my friend was killed in a flight accident while wearing the "hand me down" jacket from the other pilot.  Just bizarre coincidence, but we all remember the friend making a comment about receiving the jacket and that he was good to go because he had already had his "crash of a lifetime" as a civy pilot before entering the CF.  Twilight Zone kind of stuff.

G2G


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## theoldyoungguy (26 Nov 2008)

ballz said:
			
		

> This is a complete rookie question but I think it's at least in the appropriate place, even if the thread seems a bit derailed from the title.
> 
> What is / were the unwritten rules regarding kit for the fallen? Fallen comrades, and fallen enemies? Obviously these things would have changed or evolved from the course of WW1 to nowadays. Maybe I just suck at google but I can't find anything very concrete about how it was viewed. I would suspect it was much more acceptable back in the day to take what was needed from a fallen comrade or enemy, be it ammunition or a knife or whatever.... Now it is frowned upon big time? What about a deceased enemy? I suspect their are written rules about all this stuff just as much as their are unwritten rules no?
> 
> Can anybody shed some light on it? Sorry if I'm being ignorant, I'm just trying to develop a clear picture.



This is not my story nor was I there on this particular incident, but I do know of canadian soldiers in TICs grabbing hold of En AK-47's who they just put down because their C7 rifle was too gummed up to fire with mud and dirt... I would imagine the rule is to never take enemy weaponry as it might be booby trapped but in a TIC you do what you have to do to get out in one piece. Take what you need for survival. Id rather face questions regarding my actions then not having to face them because i didnt make it out.


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## MG34 (9 Dec 2008)

Picking up En weapons, sure why not as long as you just put 2 in the body and one in the head, although I would not pick up something that you didn't see go onto the ground  ie dropped by the guy you just shot. I have my doubts about the story above, but whatever it's a good tale.
  As for the use of dead guys kit, before the gear goes anywhere it is rounded up by the guys on the inital scene. Anything of use is taken and redistributed within the Platoon (magazines, grenades,M72,etc), everything else is sent back with the body(ies)


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## GDawg (21 Mar 2009)

I'd like to ask you all to keep an eye out for another item, I am under the impression that the 64's are no longer in the system so this one should be obvious. I'm trying to help Cpl Wasden's wife find his 64 pattern ruck.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Apr 2009)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> The SAS have a wonderful tradition of Auctioning off all the members pers kit, usualy at inflated prices
> 
> The money going to the Soldiers family/widow, I like this way myself



As this letter proves, the British Army's been doing the same thing since at least 1917:

On the whole campaign we had 4 killed & 13 wounded, 6 have so far died of disease & half the battalion went into hospital & were sent out of the country. There is hardly a man but what was sick at some time or the other. One chap in my platoon has died , & the other day we sold his kit between ourselves & realized R400 (400 Rupees) a fine sum which will of course go to his people. Another chap has just died of the same of Frith, was that the name of the chap you mentioned to me some time ago. I don't know him personally. 

http://www.simonpg.com/waziristan3.htm


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