# When did the bar system get added to the CD?



## Hunter (15 Jan 2012)

My grandfather was laid to rest in December, and at his memorial service his medals were on display.  He served 25 years, but his CD did not have a bar.  He retired in 1964.  Is this correct, considering the period of time he was in?  FWIW he enrolled as an Able Seaman (signaller), then volunteered for the Fleet Air Arm and got a CFR.  The pinnacle of his career was the position of Air Commander on HMCS Bonaventure, and he retired as a Commander.

I'm also wondering if there are any old sailors/aviators on this site who worked with him?  I have met a few over the years, and if there are any on here I would love to hear any stories about him that you may have.

Thanks!!


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## vonGarvin (15 Jan 2012)

Hello
What was your grandfather's name?

Also, see here for info on the Canadian Forces Decoration:
LINK

He may have had a different long service and good conduct medal for service prior to 1951.  If that were the case, then maybe it discounted getting the clasp.  (FWIW, the clasp was initiated when the medal was created). Also, he may have had some service time deemed ineligible for conduct.  (One never knows)


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## Hunter (15 Jan 2012)

Thanks for the reply, yeah I guess I should have added his name - Cdr HJ (Jim) Hunter.  I suppose it's possible he had some ineligible time. I never heard of him getting charged with anything but I know of at least one story of him punching out a fellow officer.


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## Pusser (15 Jan 2012)

Yes, the bars were initiated right from the beginning.  However, if he was awarded the RCN Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, the years for which he received that, would not count toward the CD.  Having said that, this is unlikely because with only 25 years of service, he would not have enough total time to qualify for both medals (LS&GC required 18 years and CD requires 12, meaning 30 years total required).

If all he has is a CD and he served 25 years of "undetected crime"  ;D, then he may indeed be eligible for a bar.  It's worth investigating.  I recommend giving DH&R a call at 1-877-741-8332.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Jan 2012)

The only long service award that could be earned by a member of the RCN before the institution of the Canadian Forces decoration was the Royal Canadian Navy Long Service and Good Conduct Award (RCNLSGC).* Only sailors and petty officers were eligible. There was no good conduct and long service award for officers because_ "they were expected to act with good conduct at all times." _Eligibility for the RCNLSGC award was instituted in 1925 and it required 15 years service (in context it was identical to the RN LSGC Medal).

Before the adoption of the RCMLSGC Medal, sailors and petty officers were technically eligible to receive the Permanent Forces of the Empire Beyond the Seas Long Service Medal. This medal was awarded to non-commissioned members and there is no record of it being awarded to any member of RCN.

Based on the above, I suspect the following may be the case:

Since officers of the RCN did not qualify for any Long Service medal before the institution of the Canadian Forces Decoration, it is possible that prior service could not be carried forward to the CD. The terms of reference for the CD state that eligibility starts with service on or after 1 Oct 1946. With a 1 Oct 1946 start date for eligible service, for those recipients whose earlier service did not qualify towards a long service award, the earliest award of the CD would be 1 Oct 1958, and the earliest possible bar earned on 1 Oct 1970.

_(As noted DH&R will be able to confirm eligibility one way or the other.)_


Sources:
a.  McCreery, The Canadian Honours System
b.  Medal Year Book 2011
c.  McCReery, The Canadian Forces Decoration


* Note that officers, petty officers and sailors of the RCNR and RCNVR (later the RCN(R)) were eligible for the RCNR/RCNVR Officers Decoration and the RCNR/RCNVR LSGCM from 1937 and 1938 respectively. After 1946 members of these organizations were all eligible for the RCNVR Officers Decoration and the RCNVR LSGCM.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Jan 2012)

Cdr Hunter's obituary


Hunter, do you have a photo of your grandfather's medals or ribbons? That will at least settle the question of possible second long service awards.


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## Pusser (15 Jan 2012)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> The only long service award that could be earned by a member of the RCN before the institution of the Canadian Forces decoration was the Royal Canadian Navy Long Service and Good Conduct Award (RCNLSGC).* Only sailors and petty officers were eligible. There was no good conduct and long service award for officers because_ "they were expected to act with good conduct at all times." _Eligibility for the RCNLSGC award was instituted in 1925 and it required 15 years service (in context it was identical to the RN LSGC Medal).
> 
> Before the adoption of the RCMLSGC Medal, sailors and petty officers were technically eligible to receive the Permanent Forces of the Empire Beyond the Seas Long Service Medal. This medal was awarded to non-commissioned members and there is no record of it being awarded to any member of RCN.
> 
> ...



This last part is not correct.  Qualifying service for the CD did not start on 1 Oct 1946.  The member simply had to be serving on 1 Oct 1946 (i.e. a guy with at least 12 years of service who retired on 30 Sep 46 was not eligible, but if he stuck around until the next day, he would be eligible).  The service of regular force officers prior to 1 Oct 1946 was not excluded from the CD, even though it had not been eligible for any other LS&GC.  Case in point:  VAdm Rollo Mainguy, OBE, *CD* retired in 1956, only ten years after the institution of the CD.  If his prior service had not counted, then he would not have been eligible.  In fact, if you go to the main lobby of the HQ building in Halifax, (D201 - the Mainguy Building) his medals and decorations are on display and his CD is the George VI version, meaning it had to have been awarded prior to 1952 (or thereabouts - the change to the Elizabeth II version was not instantaneous).

Article 6 of the CD regulations (1949 version):

6.	Service Required – Royal Canadian Navy 
– Canadian Army (Active Forces)
– Royal Canadian Air Force (Regular) 

(a)	Twelve years full time paid service in the Naval, Military or Air Forces of the
British Empire, *provided the individual was serving on or after 1st October, 1946* in the Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army (Active Force) or Royal Canadian Air Force (Regular).

(b) Service in the Reserve or Auxiliary of the Armed Forces of the British Empire, other than full time Active Service will not count as qualifying time.

(c)	Effective – (date of promulgation) – personnel will cease to qualify for The Naval Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, The Canadian Medal for Long Service and Good Conduct (Military) and The Royal Canadian Air Force Long Service and Good Conduct Medal.

Although service as an officer did not count toward the LS&GC, officers who had earned it as non-commissioned members could keep it and continue to wear it.   
Since the OP stated that his ancestor had started in the ranks, the award of an LS&GC could have been possible.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Jan 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> This last part is not correct.



Then I stand corrected.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> Although service as an officer did not count toward the LS&GC, officers who had earned it as non-commissioned members could keep it and continue to wear it.
> Since the OP stated that his ancestor had started in the ranks, the award of an LS&GC could have been possible.



I'd like to see the ribbons or medals before trying to figure out what combination of service might result in two long service awards  for Hunter, if that is the case. If so, it would likely be a complex calculation of Regular/Reserve service time with non-commissioned and commissioned service with wartime modifiers of counting applicable time.


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## Hunter (15 Jan 2012)

Hi everyone, thanks for the responses.  Here is a picture of his medals.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Jan 2012)

A quick review of the medals

1939-45 Star
Atlantic Star
Defence Medal
Canadian Volunteer Service Medal
War Medal 1939-45
QE II Coronation Medal
Canadian Forces Decoration

The CD is a George VI issue so Cdr Hunter would probably have received it sometime between June 1951 (presentation of first CD to Viscount Alexander, the Governor-General) September 1951 (12th anniversary of him joining the RCNVR) and February 1954 (when the first batch of QE II CDs were struck).


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## aesop081 (16 Jan 2012)

Could be something as simple as the bar was presented but never mounted.


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## armyvern (16 Jan 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Could be something as simple as the bar was presented but never mounted.



That was a thought that I had too; my grandpa's 2nd bar was never mounted on his as he retired shortly afterwards and didn't feel the need for it.


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## Journeyman (16 Jan 2012)

I had the same thought, but only through personal experience. 

I had one CD bar/rosette thrown into my mail slot, and _believe_ I've qualified for a second, but have nothing mounted anywhere (undress ribbons, DEU medals, Mess Kit miniatures), simply because I can't be bothered -- my deployments are the ones that matter to me; when the bar/shield for my Afghan medal arrived, it was mounted within the week.

That's just me though; YMMV   :dunno:


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## Pusser (16 Jan 2012)

Sometimes we don't give enough credit to the CD or its bars (e.g. in Halifax we called it the Parking Medal because you needed 12 years service to get a parking pass).  Yes, deployments are important and noteworthy achievements, but so are 12 years of unlimited liability.  Do the folks who don't bother to mount the CD or its bars because their tour medals are the ones that matter feel that their time at home is wasted?  Even if one has never deployed, is not 12 years of supporting operations at home and preparing to deploy, if required, noteworthy?  The folks at home aren't sitting around eating bon bons.  They're often working their butts off to ensure we can deploy forces around the world.  It is disrespectful to imply that tour medals are more important than the CD. All honours matter and should be treated with respect, which includes mounting and wearing properly in a timely fashion.


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## Journeyman (16 Jan 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It is disrespectful to imply that tour medals are more important than the CD.


In no way did I imply it; I came right out and stated that, _to me_, my tour medals are more important. Please feel free to cherish any Regal Jubilee or Peacekeeping Service Medal you may have, as you see fit.

I suggest, however, that since my comment was tied to this particular discussion, that you start another thread for self-righteous hand-wringing, rather than derailing this one.    :nod:


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## Pusser (17 Jan 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> In no way did I imply it; I came right out and stated that, _to me_, my tour medals are more important. Please feel free to cherish any Regal Jubilee or Peacekeeping Service Medal you may have, as you see fit.
> 
> I suggest, however, that since my comment was tied to this particular discussion, that you start another thread for self-righteous hand-wringing, rather than derailing this one.    :nod:



Perhaps you ought to re-read what you said.  I didn't lead the charge down this rabbit hole - you did.  You showed disrespect to the CD and other honours in a discussion about the CD and so I said something.  Never pass a fault.


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2012)

:boring:

It had been mentioned that, hypothetically, perhaps he had simply not mounted the bars. I confirmed an occurrence from personal experience.


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## Pusser (17 Jan 2012)

You could have done that without taking a shot at the honour itself.


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## Hunter (17 Jan 2012)

SO ANYHOW...thanks all for your answers to my question!


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