# toronto police take out armed guy with a cop car pretty cool



## Jonny Boy (11 Mar 2005)

here is a real event that took place on i think it was this Monday, march 7th 2005. it was down town toronto. one of my friends told me all about it when i was at school but i never saw the video.

it is pretty intense. the guy had 2 knifes and if you cant make it out the car pined him in between a bike rack and the car. he had like 3 broken ribs.


http://www.compfused.com/directlink/677/


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## Chainsaw (11 Mar 2005)

Ah damn, that's hilarious. Made me laugh.  ;D


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## NavalGent (11 Mar 2005)

sniff sniff....do i smell the potential for a scandal?


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## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2005)

know when you're beat buddy... :


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## CBH99 (11 Mar 2005)

A scandal?  How so?  They were just doing their jobs.

Not sure if ramming into a suspect with a police car could be considered by-the-books procedure, but it worked, didn't it?  No officers were hurt, no nearby citizens were hurt, and the guy who had the knives had 1 broken rib and 1 fractured rib (I read about it in the papers the day after) - not a bad outcome.


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## NavalGent (11 Mar 2005)

That could be considered excessive force. Sure, he had a knife, and I understand that the use of force is certainly warranted in cases where there is danger to the police and/or public. But if you watch the video, that was quite a violent impact, and had that video been broadcast on the news, I'm sure public debate would be opened, and then there would be a big inquiry and one or more of those cops might be fired and/or charged etc.


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## Da_man (11 Mar 2005)

hilarious  ;D


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## Da_man (11 Mar 2005)

NavalGent said:
			
		

> That could be considered excessive force. Sure, he had a knife, and I understand that the use of force is certainly warranted in cases where there is danger to the police and/or public. But if you watch the video, that was quite a violent impact, and had that video been broadcast on the news, I'm sure public debate would be opened, and then there would be a big inquiry and one or more of those cops might be fired and/or charged etc.




Excessive force?  Against a knife they are allowed to use their guns...


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## Big Foot (11 Mar 2005)

Well NavalGent, consider the escalation of force. He didn't heed the police's verbal warnings and give himself up. Therefore, the police were warranted to neutralize him and prevent him from hurting anyone. What would you have rathered they do, shoot him?


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## Slim (11 Mar 2005)

I'm not able to watch the video at work. But I can tell you from my own training that a guy with a knife can get to you before you can draw and shoot him if he's within 21 feet of you.

Slim


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## NavalGent (11 Mar 2005)

Perhaps I did not come across clearly. I recognize that they are authorized to use firearms and therefore lethal force in such a situation, however I'm quite sure investigations are launched whenever an officer uses a firearm, which is a widely known standard procedure. Had they injured or killed this person with a firearm, then there would be an investigation. Now, this guy's been injured by being pinned between a car and a bike rack. Considering the size and weight of a car, that guy could have been killed. An investigation would be warranted in the eyes of many. 
As CBH99 suggested, running into a guy with a car is not a widely known procedure if it's even a standard procedure at all. Pinning him between the car and a bike rack is even less likely to be a standard procedure. If that video clip was shown on the news, I just think that in the eye of the soft and cuddly public, that could be seen as both excessive and, because its not standard procedure, careless. Public debate on the issue would be sparked, leading to political pressure for a thorough investigation, and one or more scapegoat officers would take the blame. 

 Just suggesting that it is a POSSIBLE chain of events.


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## Scratch_043 (11 Mar 2005)

that wasn't a bike rack, it was a parking metre


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## NavalGent (11 Mar 2005)

Whatever it was...


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## Tpr.Orange (11 Mar 2005)

good on those cops for doing their job and protecting the public. The cops had no injuries and the civvies had no injuries, and in truth i wouldn't have minded if they shot the guy instead(he gets what he deserves by threatening officers and failing to comply) At least this way it was a better outcome for the criminal.


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## NavalGent (11 Mar 2005)

look closer...thats no parking metre.


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## P-Free (11 Mar 2005)

This was in the news, along with the video earlier in the week. It was on CTV I know for sure because I saw it there myself. 

Don't quote me on it but I believe the guy was suicidal. Plus he was given multiple opportunities to drop the knife. It might not have been the most politically correct way to get the job done, but at least they got the job done and there were no serious injuries or deathes.


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## Freddy Chef (11 Mar 2005)

*NavalGent* is correct, it's a bike rack. Same steel post construction as the old parking meters. [The arrest happened on Yonge Street, very busy, no parking.]

The provincial Special Investigations Unit (SIU) is usually called in whenever serious injury or death happens while police make an arrest. Don't recall if the SIU was called in for this arrest.


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## NavalGent (11 Mar 2005)

P-Free said:
			
		

> This was in the news, along with the video earlier in the week. It was on CTV I know for sure because I saw it there myself.
> 
> Don't quote me on it but I believe the guy was suicidal. Plus he was given multiple opportunities to drop the knife. It might not have been the most politically correct way to get the job done, but at least they got the job done and there were no serious injuries or deathes.



Agreed. My bad for assuming it wasn't on the news. And I laughed when I saw it too.   ;D


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## JJ (11 Mar 2005)

A clearer version, at least on my PC, can be found here:


http://www.recoil.cc/

Under the title:

No plastic shield? use your car..


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## NiTz (11 Mar 2005)

Totally agree with you, CFN. orange

He knew that he exposed himself to physical violence by threatening cops with knives... good for him!


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## Slim (11 Mar 2005)

Just saw the video..The guy got what was coming to him. Also no one was hurt.

Good job to the TPS!!!

Slim


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## Thompson_JM (12 Mar 2005)

From my understanding the suspect was attempting a "Suicide by Cops" meaning he wanted the police to kill him. This would have been a prefect example of where a taser would have come in very useful. The ETF were called, however they did not arrive in time to deploy said taser. the SUI were called in, but turned the investigation back over to TPS as the suspect was not seriously injured. (to my knowledge a broken wrist and a face full of pepper spray)

IMO, the police would not loose their jobs over the manuver with the car, considering they only had one alternative. interestingly enough, and im sure related to this incident, TPS are now implementing Tasers being issued to Road Sgts. in i belive 19, 21, and 52 division as a test project.

if you want more on the story www.cp24.com should still have some info on it, as well as the video.

POLICE USE CRUSIER IN TORONTO STANDOFF
http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20050308-007/page.asp
Wielding two ominous butcher knives, a seemingly crazed man confronted a slew of Toronto police officers at the corner of Yonge and Wellesley early Tuesday morning. 

â Å“Shoot me!â ? he taunted the officers, who surrounded him with guns drawn in a tense street standoff. 

Death may have been his wish, but Toronto's finest blew out the candles on his hopes for extinction, diffusing a potentially fatal confrontation by pinning the man between a bicycle stand and a police cruiser. 

When the car backed up, the suspect was unhinged from his momentary prison. But it wouldn't be long before he was in a more conventional form of custody. 

Finally admitting defeat, he tossed both knives to the ground and police closed in, using pepper spray to further incapacitate their unstable nemesis. 

The man, believed to be in his 30s, suffered a broken wrist in the ordeal and was ordered to undergo psychiatric evaluation. 

Stunned witnesses seemed to think police handled the situation appropriately. 

â Å“I think that they were justified for sure,â ? said Magda Majewski. â Å“And I think that potentially they might have been justified in using more force, but I think they were clearly sort of concerned about him afterwards and taking care of him afterwards and washing out his eyes and, you know, getting him medical help.â ?

Witnesses say the man panhandles in the neighbourhood and may be homeless. But others contend that's not the case. 

During the 15 minute ordeal, which began around 7am, some bystanders were apparently screaming at police to use a taser on the man, not knowing that only E.T.F. officers are currently allowed to carry the weapons. 

The incident will surely spark more debate on the use of the stun guns in the police force, something former Chief Julian Fantino unsuccessfully fought for during his tenure. 

In the meantime, former police officer Jim Downs believes the man at the centre of the frightening struggle is lucky to be alive. 

â Å“Maybe another officer, not knowing what's going through his mind or her mind at that particular time, may have elected to use a firearm and been very justified to use that firearm. So he's a lucky man.

â Å“This is a classic example where a taser would have been appropriate tool for them, because really they only have two tools at their option. One really. They had their firearms, and the officer decided to use his car as a second tool.â ?


SUI CLOSE CASE ON TORONTO STANDOFF
http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20050310-008/page.asp
The province's Special Investigations Unit has ended its probe into a confrontation between police and a knife-wielding man in the downtown core Tuesday.

The man sustained a hairline fracture to his wrist after being pinned between a police cruiser and a bicycle stand at Yonge and Wellesley Sts. as officers attempted to disarm and arrest him. He resisted two police attempts to collar him, at one point jumping up on the hood of a moving cop car.

The incident may have helped spark the Police Services Board decision Wednesday to arm cops with 100 Tasers for a three-month trial run. 

Witnesses at the scene of the disturbance called out for cops to use the stun guns, unaware that only E.T.F. officers were permitted to carry them at the time. E.T.F. was called, but didn't arrive fast enough.

The S.I.U., which investigates police involvement in civilian injuries, says the man was not harmed seriously, and have terminated their involvement.

March 10, 2005 
***************************************************************************

anyways, hope that clears up some of the speculation.


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## Good2Golf (12 Mar 2005)

Tasers might have worked...but that bike stand looked pretty effective to me! ;D


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## Slim (12 Mar 2005)

Well done to TPS...Glad they didn't get any flack over the issue.

Slim


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## Jonny Boy (12 Mar 2005)

ya i did co-op with the TPS last year and it seems they get flack over just about anything.   i am glad they didn't get any over this. it seemed to be a very effective way to stop the guy. but then so would of shooting him. meh what ever he is off the streets thats all that matters.


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## COBRA-6 (14 Mar 2005)

I agree that this is picture-perfect justification for widespread taser issue (every cruiser!).

Does anyone know if he was pepper sprayed before they nailed him with the car? If not was it a safe-distance issue? I guess they didn't have any of those APEC-sized canisters handy...

I remember a similar incident with a sword-wielding madman on real-tv... they subdued him using fire hoses and ladders!

To bad it wasn't a police-steamroller... lol


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## MPIKE (14 Mar 2005)

> If not was it a safe-distance issue?



Use of OC would of put the officer within range of the edge weapons..  The effectiveness of edge weapons is under 21 feet as a person can close that distance within seconds and deliver his results.



> Hence, no imminent threat to police or public.  Hence, excessive force unjustified.  Another notch for the cowboys.



The quarterbacking is great from the safety of your download on CP24.. I would say that an armed emotionally disturbed person in the downtown core of Toronto falls into the category of "threat to police or public". It was in the interests of the public and that troubled person to act and disarm him..

Piker


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## COBRA-6 (14 Mar 2005)

PIKER said:
			
		

> Use of OC would of put the officer within range of the edge weapons.. The effectiveness of edge weapons is under 21 feet as a person can close that distance within seconds and deliver his results.



That's what I assumed, what is the effective range of OC spray carried by most police? Obviously not as far as the fire-extinguisher sized riot control cannisters...


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## Slim (14 Mar 2005)

Intelligere said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I side with Navalgent on this one.   The police were able to retreat to stay out of the individual's knife range.   ie.   They had a means of evasion.   Hence, no imminent threat to police or public.   Hence, excessive force unjustified.   Another notch for the cowboys.



One of the things I teach on the firing range is "use-of-force" and let me tell you...He may have been out of range of the police, but that could have changed in an instant and directly threatened the life of an officer or a by-stander. 

Also with either drugs or mental instability, OC spray or even bullets are not a guarantee you're going to stop the man sufficiently and safely enough to get him into restraints...Specially if he was out to create the situation of "suicide by cop" as the papers seem to suggest.

Try not to armchair quarterback...You weren't there and don't know the whole story, and don't seem to be up on the current use of force laws.

Slim


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## George Wallace (14 Mar 2005)

Slim

I guess that they feel that a couple of rounds fired would have been less excessive.   :

GW


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## Thompson_JM (14 Mar 2005)

Thanks Slim, you summed it up much better then I would have been able to.


and Intelligere, no offense, but if youre going to state something like that, please back up your statements with fact as to why you know it was excessive. 

My experience is by my own addmission fairly limited to what i have seen and done in regards to military ROE's and having taken Police Foundations at the college level (at humber in toronto taught by alot of members of TPS). however i have done enough research on use of force and less-then-lethal weapons to know that the police on scene were left with very few viable alternatives to deadly force. Use of the car was not only innovative but also showed that police were willing to do ANYTHING to avoid taking a life that day. the fact is, the SIU were called in. looked at what happened and concluded that the police were doing their job. there may be an investigation at a lower level, but i personally doubt it.  

I would explain to you how use of force works in the police world (as i understand it) but i dont have the space, and more importantly as i am not a police officer i dont have the practical experiance to back up my understanding. 

Toronto Police are not "Cowboys" they have to come up with some unique solutions to some very unique problems. sometimes the public just doesnt like to see them accually do their job because it isnt pretty.

Regards
    Josh


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## Slim (14 Mar 2005)

Well said...

Further to my last...



> The Special Investigations Unit has terminated its investigation of the incident that occurred on March 8, 2005 at the intersection of Yonge and Wellesley Streets in Toronto, in which a 34-year-old male was struck by a Toronto Police Service cruiser.
> 
> 
> Police had been called to the intersection in response to reports of the male acting in a threatening fashion in the area. The male was eventually arrested and taken to St. Michael's Hospital for an injury to his left wrist sustained in the collision.
> ...



http://torontopolice.on.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1549&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0




Slim


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## Glorified Ape (15 Mar 2005)

NavalGent said:
			
		

> look closer...thats no parking metre.



It's a bike-lock post.


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## Slim (15 Mar 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> It's a bike-lock post.



Why is this important?


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## Glorified Ape (15 Mar 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Why is this important?



It isn't... much like the majority of stuff posted in Radio Chatter.  ???


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## JasonH (15 Mar 2005)

Perfect use of a police cruiser.  Obviously the suspect wanted 'Suicide by Cop' and they didn't want nothing of it.


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