# Who uses the 5.7mm ammo?



## commo_dude (4 Jan 2006)

Who uses the 5.7mm ammo? Not 5.56 ammo.


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## Quiet Riot (4 Jan 2006)

Only place I've heard 5.7mm being used is by FN, in the P90 and Five-seven Pistol.


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Jan 2006)

Apparently these/or some weapons are use by Peru, Cyprus, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia and Stargate Command. 

Modified to add Cyprus.


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## AmmoTech90 (4 Jan 2006)

Saw some P90s on the streets of Asmara, Eritrea a couple of days after the arms embargo was lifted.  They didn't have them before, so that must mean that FN has an awesome shipping department, right?


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Jan 2006)

Or a Stargate


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## KevinB (4 Jan 2006)

Well Startgate is the only place the 5.7x28 SS190 round is effective  ;D  About as effective as stabbing someone with a very slender icepick.  They may dies but not for a few days...

Some Belgian SF units had then in Afghan - but I have not seen them recently with them


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## a_majoor (5 Jan 2006)

As a side note, although FN is still offering the P-90 PDW and FiveSeven pistol, a number of arms dealers at the AUSA show were offering 9mm carbines as alternative weapons to perform a similar role. Although the extra length (12" to 16" barrels in some cases) made these a bit impractical as PDWs, the claimed increase in muzzle velocity and KE were supposedly enough to deal with targets at ranges out to 100m or more, and there were even claims of being able to deal with targets protected by body armour. (Of course, if you used a silver bullet during a full moon, dealing with werewolves would be a breeze as well... )

Trying to develop a weapon which is compact, easy to use and able to deliver enough energy to put a target down is very difficult since each requirement is contradicted by the others (remember, the Laws of Physics are enforced very rigorously indeed). Look for more outlandish ideas in the future, such as variations of the Metalstorm, in attempts to sidestep the problems.


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## Scarf Face (5 Jan 2006)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7_mm


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## flashman (5 Jan 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Although the extra length (12" to 16" barrels in some cases) made these a bit impractical as PDWs, the claimed increase in muzzle velocity and KE were supposedly enough to deal with targets at ranges out to 100m or more, and there were even claims of being able to deal with targets protected by body armour.



What were the purported advantages of a 12" or 16" barreled 9mm weapon over a 11.5" or 16" barreled 5.56mm weapon?  Heavier ammo poor trajectory and less lethality are three major dings against it, even if we DS that they have cooked up some 9mm ammo that can defeat level IIIA soft  / III hard armour (since it's already a given that 9mm from an SMG will defeat level I, IIA and II soft armour).


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## CF-22 Raptor (9 Jan 2006)

There's something that keeps bugging me about Stargate and Stargate Atlantis...the guys use P90s but their tact vests are CLEARY designed for M4s/M16s...can somebody show me a picture of ACTUAL P90 tact vests? I believe that the Belgian SFs use them right?


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## Big Red (9 Jan 2006)

Some former eastern bloc ambassador's PSD teams use the p90 in Iraq.  I played around with one and it handled well, would be great for a driver's gun in softskins.


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## nsmedicman (10 Jan 2006)

I may be wrong, but I heard that the Halifax Regional Police is using P-90s. The rumour was that each supervisor (Sergeant) vehicle was being equipped with one, as well as their Emergency Response Team.


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## gottyfunk (12 Jan 2006)

Actually the U.S secret service is supposed to be using the five seven, and from there actual field use they have come up with a modified version. They had a write up in one of the gun magizines about it, as well one of the bigger ammo companies is supposed to be manufacturing the 5.7 ammo now. I just cannot remember if they also had the p90s issued , but i imagine they would instead of mixing up the calibers for a side arm and the p90.?


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## CF-22 Raptor (12 Jan 2006)

So...does anybody know how they store those bulky mags?


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## KevinB (12 Jan 2006)

gottyfunk said:
			
		

> Actually the U.S secret service is supposed to be using the five seven, and from there actual field use they have come up with a modified version. They had a write up in one of the gun magizines about it, as well one of the bigger ammo companies is supposed to be manufacturing the 5.7 ammo now. I just cannot remember if they also had the p90s issued , but i imagine they would instead of mixing up the calibers for a side arm and the p90.?



Don't beleive what you read in a gun rag...

 When DickC visited us two weeks ago all the USSS guys that where around us where not carrying anything like that at all.
They ran Colt M4A1's and whil enone had handguns out around the Embassy - I would guess they had the same 9mm Glocks we have with DoS...


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## Popurhedoff (12 Jan 2006)

nsmedicman said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, but I heard that the Halifax Regional Police is using P-90s. The rumour was that each supervisor (Sergeant) vehicle was being equipped with one, as well as their Emergency Response Team.



You are not wrong, the Halifax ERT use the P-90's.  I have some 5.7x28mm brass I picked up off of a local Halifax range where they practice.  Some guys I know had the opportunity to try it.


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## KevinB (12 Jan 2006)

Another interesting aside is that after testing the 5.7x28 round USSOC issued a memo that adopting the cartridge is the best way to ensure mission failure...

 I've quoted the memo here before if people really want to do a search.
I am not at home so I dont have the date of the memo but it was written by LCdr Garry Roberts.


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## COBRA-6 (12 Jan 2006)

How does the H&K PDW stack up compared to the 5.7mm? I've seen some Germans carrying them around town, and hopefully will get my hands on one at the range before redeployment...

Also, as far as compact firepower goes, the carbine version of the British SA80 is tiny!


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## KevinB (12 Jan 2006)

The Germans redesigned the 4.6x36 round to be more effective in flash- but I am not sure if it ever worked well -- I see some of the Germans at Bagram carrying them.  

  The Brits with that minibullpup are quite compact -- 10" bbl IIRC is a TINY item.


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## brihard (12 Jan 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> The Brits with that minibullpup are quite compact -- 10" bbl IIRC is a TINY item.



Geez... I'd never seen that before, and after your post I googled it. after wading through four pages of airsoft results I found a British army discussion site with a picture of the thing- looks like they took the L85 down to bare minimum. Seems like it would be a pretty good compromize for PDW in a rifle chambering...


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## KevinB (12 Jan 2006)

Yeah I must admit I've only seen a few of them.
  I took a look at one outside the Supreme store in Kabul (he was interested in the 9mm Hollowpoint (147gr HydraShok - DoS issue) that came out of my Glock19 at the clearing barrel.  I dont like bullpups from the ergonomic standpoint and was underwhelmed by the SA80A2 improvements - their SF is still using the L119A1 (C8SFW with a beefed up frontsigth gasblock due to the HK UGL) and the Sig552 - so I dont think it has all the cinks worked out -- but damn in a vehicle it would be easy to use...


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## COBRA-6 (13 Jan 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I took a look at one outside the Supreme store in Kabul (he was interested in the 9mm Hollowpoint (147gr HydraShok - DoS issue) that came out of my Glock19 at the clearing barrel.



Gotta love supermarkets with clearing barrels... like going shopping in Compton!  ;D


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## KevinB (13 Jan 2006)

I always get upset at people who make me clear - I dont clear at the Embassy, I dont clear when I visit Duey, I dont clear at the ISAF Bazarre -- WHY do I have to clear to go shopping (well perhaps Supreme's outright theft pricing makes them expect a hit?).


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## NATO Boy (13 Jan 2006)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Geez... I'd never seen that before, and after your post I googled it. after wading through four pages of airsoft results I found a British army discussion site with a picture of the thing- looks like they took the L85 down to bare minimum. Seems like it would be a pretty good compromize for PDW in a rifle chambering...



Is this it?


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## KevinB (13 Jan 2006)

Yes.

  Some have the SUSAT interface milled off and a piece of Picatinny rail added for the use of a CCO.


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## NATO Boy (13 Jan 2006)

Cool....but I suspect an bullpup this "compact" must really need a counter-weight for stable fire (like the ones in the front handguard of the full L85.)


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## Armymatters (13 Jan 2006)

The HK G36C fulfills the same roll as the the L85 carbine... its only 720mm in length stock extended, and carries over the reliability of HK weaponry, especially of the G36 series. It only has open sights, but it has a rail interface. The thing is only 2 inches longer than a regular MP5 or UMP submachine gun. Fires the standard NATO 5.56mm ammuntion, but I expect with rifles this size that there is a range and exit velocity penalty when firing rifle ammunition in a gun the size of a submachine gun.


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## COBRA-6 (14 Jan 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I always get upset at people who make me clear - I dont clear at the Embassy, I dont clear when I visit Duey, I dont clear at the ISAF Bazarre -- WHY do I have to clear to go shopping (well perhaps Supreme's outright theft pricing makes them expect a hit?).



Maybe someone will knock them off Bagram style  ;D

With all the ND's some of the multinationals have, I can understand the policy. Nothing like a burst of MG fire from inside the camp to wake you up in the morning...


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## gottyfunk (14 Jan 2006)

Ok so here it goes i ve found the article in SWAT magizine Jan 2006 ....The U.S sercret service has addopted the P90 and was evaluating the fiveseveN. The article was in regards to recomendations that the secret service submited to modify the fiveseveN to there specs and possible adoption.


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## KevinB (15 Jan 2006)

:
 G36C is a POS - there is a reason the Norwegian SF dropped it and even the German KSK have been seen running with Diemaco C8SFW's...  The only Hk system goign anywhere these days is the Hk416 and 417...

gottyfunk - beleive what you want, I work for US DoS, none of the USSS guys I've rubbed shoulders with have P90's or use 5.7.   
  

Mike - I see your point on that - but I'm in the few catagory that are hot 100% and dont have to unload across where I go - so why do I have to unload at a Supermarket????
  When I was here as a CF soldier we had a US Army unit do 4 rds Mk19 warning into the Hesco at Phoenix...


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 Jan 2006)

Kev,
  Think the KSK will switch over to the HK416/417?


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## Falco (16 Jan 2006)

Pictures are worth 1000 words.








> WASHINGTON, UNITED STATES: A member of the US Secret Service Emergency Response Team (ERT) stands his post on the White House grounds 19 January 2005. US President George W. Bush will be sworn in to his second term in office 20 January amid unprecedented security. AFP Photo/Paul J. RICHARDS (Photo credit should read PAUL J.RICHARDS/AFP/Getty Images)










> WASHINGTON - DECEMBER 1: A member of the U.S. Secret Service, carrying a submachine gun, patrols the North Lawn of the White House December 1, 2003 in Washington, DC. (Photo by Mark Wilson/Getty Images)










> Former President Alberto Fujimori, center, participates in a manhunt to find his former spy chief Vladimiro Montesinos in Lima, Peru, in this October 25, 2000, file photo. Fugitive and former Peruvian President Alberto Fujimori arrived in Chile Sunday, officials reported. The officials, who asked not to be identified, said the arrival of the 67-year-old former ruler came as a total surprise and the reasons for his coming here were not immediately known.(AP Photo)



Next eight are from http://www.dutchdefencepress.com/ Dutch KCT and BBP 

























































This is a list of US Agencies using the P90, although I can't comfirm it's accuracy:

Atlanta, GA PD
Austin, TX PD
Belleview, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Dallas, TX PD
Defense Protective Service
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Federal Protective Service
Grand Forks, ND PD
Hallsville, MO PD
Houston, TX PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Little Rock, AR PD
Missouri State Highway Patrol
Montana State Highway Patrol
North Little Rock, AR PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
San Francisco, CA PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
Washoe County, NV SO
Zephyr Hills, FL PD

Link article on the P90 in service with the Houston PD.


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## KevinB (16 Jan 2006)

Well Senator John (Swift Boat) Kerry was here today - no P90's all M4A1's


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## Falco (16 Jan 2006)

The only P90 equipped USSS agents I've seen in the news and other sources were on the White House grounds. Might explain why you haven't encountered P90 carrying USSS agent.


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## KevinB (16 Jan 2006)

That actually just twigged to me as well- perhaps they dont want to make the White House look like a War Zone with M4's... :-\


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Jan 2006)

Just reading in a mag that FN has released a new version of the Five-sevenN pistol. Judging by the comments in the article is that the 5.7 anti-body armour round is very good at piercing body armour, but the typical 5.7 ammo is mediocre. 

Apparently the P90 magazines are prone to cracking if dropped. Malaysia also uses the P90 according to my friend who deals with the military/police

Having carried the SMG for many years, with the cocking handle and magazine always sticking into you, I like the shape of the P90 and the large capacity magazine. I wonder if it would benefit from slightly larger round, say 6.5mm/6.8 x 28?


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## a_majoor (17 Jan 2006)

I'm not sure the extra time and effort for creating a 6.5 X 28 would be worth it. Besides the total redesign of the weapons (P-05 and Six Five?), how much extra terminal effects would you get?

Don't forget, in the ideal world LMGs would be firing something like a 6.5 X 45 round for ideal ballistic performance (and way back when the Enfield EM-2 was developed using a .280 cal "ideal" cartridge for maximum performance as an assault rifle), but the 5.56 X 45 was adopted in the end for both rifles and LMGs because it was cheap, widely available and "good enough" to do the job. 

FN developed the 5.7 X 28 from "first principles" and the weapons systems around the cartridge, so I would have to guess they had a good reason for settling on that configuration. I recall FN also had developed a 15mm HMG cartridge and HMG system in the 80's or early 90's, but could not sell them in the end because the venerable .50 and M-2 combination was also inexpensive, widely available and "good enough" do the job.


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## Armymatters (17 Jan 2006)

a_majoor:
The machine gun you are talking about is the FN BRG-15. The BRG-15 using the FN 15.5x115 mm round could pierce 10mm of steel armour at 30 degrees at the distance of 1350 meters, or, in other words, capable of defeating the armour of almost any APC at the distances of 1000 meters and beyond. In the final shape the BRG-15 was a very potent gun, but due to financial difficulties of the FN at the time, the company decided to shelve this project in the early 1990s, in the favour of the P90 PDW / submacinegun.


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## KevinB (18 Jan 2006)

Guys remember that FN has been working on an FN2000 bullpup and the SCAR/ARM for the last littlw while as well.

The PDW is a niche market and HK and others have attempted to capitalize on it as well in various calibres as well.
KAC and several US firms have attempted PDW's - but due to the poor wounding mechanism of the sub cal low velocity cartridges hardly anyone has adopted them.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Jan 2006)

I was re-reading the article in guns and ammo, the FN pistol offers a 20rd mag. Still the whole thing reminds me of the Mauser Broomhandle and I bet they were trying for the same thing, a light easy to carry weapon that provides enough firepower for those not involved in direct combat. As much as they change, they stay the same.


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