# Pay: Statements, Backpay, Benefits, Deductions (Taxes, T4), Deployed ect... [MERGED]



## humint

I‘m curious, if I go into the Reg Force as an officer DEO (say, into the infrantry or as an arty), what sort of pay could I expect? Any ideas?  How quickly does one work up the pay scale and how does it work? I‘m checking out the info on the d-net site, but is this really in line with reality? I‘ve read a few recent articles on how the forces will be losing officers because it can‘t keep up with the private sector and was wondering if it is as bad as the media makes it out to be?


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## Zoomie

Just to give you some sort of comparison, I am a 3 year 2Lt (Airforce training is LONG) with a 4 year Degree.  All the magic works out that I get approx $42K/year before taxes.  That is what you can expect while on training (probably a little less) until you are MOC qualified.  Then it goes higher.


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## humint

Thanks, that helps. 

It looks like a newby officer is equal in pay to the fed gov public service classification of PM2. To be honest, I would have expected the pay to be slighty higher given that many new officers have a university degree and other experience (if they are DEO), etc. 

Am I right to assume that increases in pay happen fairly frequently and that, once you are more experienced and have taken courses, etc., you make a more modest wage?  

I also see that the military is offering signing bonuses to certain types of professions or backgrounds. I am curious, why don‘t they attract and maintain their officers by paying them more rather than using signing bonuses alone? 

It seems that the wages are a little out of whack with the rest of society, even low-level fed public service positions are making more.


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## portcullisguy

I am a PM-02 in the federal gov‘t and I make $48k per year, so I disagree with the statement that a 2Lt makes about the same as me.  But then again, perhaps I am thinking of reservist salaries...


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## humint

I think PM-2 starts around 43. At least this is what the PSC website says. If you‘ve been with the feds for a while, I think you get paid more within that pm grouping. But hey, I was only taking a guess. 

The problem is still this: the men and women of the CDN forces are well trained and put their life on the line (or are at least expected to) and their wages are still pretty low in comparison to other gov jobs. This is, of course, a wild blanket statement, but I think that, in general, it holds up. 

But, does anyone else have any input? What sort of wage would a reg force junior officer make? How about a Cpt?


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## Zoomie

Reg force GSO Captain will start at around $57-60K, maxes out in the high 70‘s


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## Ralph

At the DND website, it gives the current payscale. For 2Lt and Lt, you follow your years in along, but there‘s also another column with "C" "D" "E" and "F". At Capt., it‘s just years in. What do those letters stand for? The number of courses you‘ve taken?
Cheers,
Ralph.


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## Jug

The A, B, C and D stand for the number of years of education that you have going in. The numbers on the top is number of years of work experience.


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## Ralph

Gotcha. So is it that an old-school officer without a university degree would be a C, and one with a four-year degree would be an F? Or is the F for a med school grad?
Cheers,
Ralph.


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## humint

I see that D-net has updated its pay scale charts -- which makes them a bit easier to read than before. 

However, looking at the charts, it appears as though the letters on the left-hand side are related to the type of entry plan (at least in so far as officers are concerned) -- such as DEO, a commission from the ranks, other former service, ROTP, etc. The chart is here:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dppd/pay/engraph/OfficerRegFPayRate_e.asp 

However, on another page, the pay categories are divided into c, d, e, & f -- I have no idea what these categories are. This is the chart for a GSO 2Lt.   http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dppd/pay/engraph/204.2114_e.asp?period=C&key=ALL


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## Jug

So for me for example, I  have and Electrical Eng degree, 4 yr program with 5 years of private sector experience...so that would put me at F3 presumably as 2ndLt...if they translate 1 for 1. 

Also, I think a board looks at all of this and determines where you fit. So there is some room for interpretation in there.


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## humint

To be honest, I have no idea how it works. 

I sent off an email to the D-net site looking for more info it -- specifically asking if the level of education has an impact on pay. 

I‘m in the same boat as you, I‘m finishing my PhD, and also have a few years professional experience, and am wondering whether a grad degree will get me more or the same $ as someone with a BA who is doing DEO. I‘ll let you know what happens.


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## Jug

Please do let me know. I‘m expecting around 50K when I start the "real" work, i.e. I‘m done my official training and such. I‘ve been told that this is realistic if not conservative. 

I‘ve also been told that it will climb quite quickly given my degree and experience...so you shouldn‘t be much different.

I for one am willing to take this given the current high-tech environment right now.


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## humint

I talked to a recruiter the other day on higher pay, etc, for those with certain degrees or advanced degrees. Basically, he said that everyone receives the same pay, regardless if you have a BSc, BAH, MA, MBA, or PhD. 

Not sure why. 

He also said that the real difference is that those with a higher degree will advance more quickly up the officer chain. 

The other difference is that new recruits with a BSc or Eng degree are receiving signing bonuses up to $40,000, whereas those, like me, with a degree in Behavioural Psyc, etc., (i.e. the humanities or social sciences) don‘t get a thing. 

A pitty, I think, because the time and effort one has to put-in to get a degree is equal, but the business world or the bean-counters (who knows??) just don‘t see it that way. My complaint is that those in behavioural science, military history studies, communications, or political studies are just as *specialised* as others. The recruiter‘s defence is that they can‘t *or don‘t want to* retrain people to be engineers -- that they are **specialists**. 

In response, I say that you can‘t get a P.Eng to do human intel or psy-ops without re-training him or her in the field, that those with a background in psyc have an immediate advantage.

Oh well, I‘m sure my complaints will fall on deaf ears. 

All that said, I don‘t think that you should expect higher pay for having a certain degree or previous business experience. You will, however, get the signing bonus and will advance more quickly. It should also be pointed out that the recruiter may be wrong. I suggest that you call the recruiting centre to get some hard facts.


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## Jug

interesting...

I guess everybody starts out the same but everyone moves up at different rates depending on the needs of the forces at the time.

Well...I understand your complaint and it is valid. I guess it comes down to demand. They are currently dying for engineers from what I hear...I guess its just what they need right now. Hence the bonus and the career acceleration of those in my field.


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## Zoomie

Just to clarify your point there.... The signing bonus‘ are going to Engineers who join up to be Engineers.  Some shmoe with a BEng that wants to be a pilot is not going to get a signing bonus.
If you have a Masters in anything, you will end up getting more per month than someone with just a Bachelors.  Those recruiting REMFS are not the know-all when it comes to pay,  Next time, go up to one of the Corporals or Master Corporals that are clerks at the CFRC, they can give you the correct response.


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## Jug

It doesn‘t really matter if you ask them, because its not them who makes the decision anyway. 

In the end, you could be making more or less than what you expected because of the "behind the scenes" process that determines your pay.

The payscale is probably just a guidline like any other company...and some liberties are probably taken given individual skill-sets.


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## humint

I actually discussed the situation with a Sgt, and he basically said that there wasn‘t increased pay for level of education (i.e. a person with an MA or PhD would receive the same as a BA). 

To be honest, I think he‘s wrong; which is not new since he‘s given me some very OFF information on a number of things over the past few months. 

But, I don‘t know for sure as I am a newby at this whole thing. I‘ll ask the Lt or Capt the next time I‘m in the CFRC and will get the low-down on the whole thing.


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## para_cadet

My dad has always told me that if you really want to be an officer the money isn‘t what matters.


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## combat_medic

If you‘re joining the military in general, then money probably isn‘t your primary concern anyway. Also, as a corporal, I‘m making more money than a 2Lt


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## Korus

As a private, I‘m making less money than all of you! ha!

Oh well, I get a raise next summer, hopefully right before my QL4...


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## Pikache

Well, privates and corporals do get a significant raise in their pay levels each year.


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## Mike Bobbitt

Here are some definitive numbers to chew on:

Primary Reserve
Regular Force

Cheers


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## Mike Bobbitt

Direct from the DND web site:

<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center"><font size="4">*MONTHLYPAY RATE TABLES*</font>*<font size="3">
Regular Force
OFFICERS</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">OfficerCadet</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><div align="center"></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"></div></td><td colspan="8"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font>Seeapplicable plan below</font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><div align="center"></div></td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4641</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4819</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4993</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5170</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5340</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5506</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5670</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5839</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5936</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6034</font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2">6135</font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6275</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6386</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6495</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6604</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6713</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6821</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6929</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7037</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>
<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center">*<font size="3">ROTP</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">OfficerCadet</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">1172</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">1197</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">1224</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">1246</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3359</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3408</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3660</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3909</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4159</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4406</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2">See tableabove </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">Seetable above </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>
<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center">*<font size="3">CEOTP</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">OfficerCadet</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">2119</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">2206</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">2671</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">2827</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">2827</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3097</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3368</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3667</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3972</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2">See tableabove </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">Seetable above </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>
<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center">*<font size="3">DEO</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"><font size="2">C</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">2873</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">D</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3116</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3359</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3608</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3856</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4104</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">E</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3359</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3608</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3856</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4104</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4349</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">F</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3608</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3856</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4104</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4349</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"><font size="2">C</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3158</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3408</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3660</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3909</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">D</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3408</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3660</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3909</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4159</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">E</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3408</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3660</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3909</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4159</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4406</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">F</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3660</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3909</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4159</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4406</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2">See tableabove </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">Seetable above </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>

 <table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center"><font size="4">*MONTHLYPAY RATE TABLES*</font>*<font size="3">
Regular Force
PILOTS</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">OfficerCadet</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><div align="center"></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"></div></td><td colspan="8"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font>Seeapplicable plan below</font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="6%"> </td><td width="18%"> </td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4960</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5184</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5438</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">5942</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6258</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6503</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6660</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6830</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6928</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">6967</font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2">6995</font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7069</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7140</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7192</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7248</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7319</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7393</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7422</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">7466</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>
<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center">*<font size="3">ROTPPILOT</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3555</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3604</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3980</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4228</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4479</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4726</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2">See tableabove </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">Seetable above </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>
<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center">*<font size="3">CFCCEPPILOT </font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">2866</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3023</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3023</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3416</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3687</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3987</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4292</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2">See tableabove </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">Seetable above </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>
<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center">*<font size="3">DEOPILOT</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"><font size="2">C</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3068</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">D</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3311</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">E</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3555</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"><font size="2">C</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3353</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3728</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3980</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4228</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">D</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3604</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3980</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4228</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4479</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"> </td><td width="3%"><font size="2">E</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3604</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">3980</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4228</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4479</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2">4726</font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2">See tableabove </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"> </td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td colspan="7"><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2">Seetable above </font></td><td width="6%"><font size="2"></font></td><td width="18%"><font size="2"></font></td></tr></table>
<table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td><div align="center"><font size="4">MONTHLYPAY RATE TABLES</font>*<font size="3">

REGULAR FORCE</font>*

<font size="2">*NON-COMMISSIONEDMEMBERS *</font></div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="136"><font size="2">*Rank*</font></td><td width="63"> </td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">*Stand*</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">*Spec1 *</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">*Spec2 *</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="4"><font size="2">*Private*</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">2081</font></div></td><td width="126"> </td><td width="160"> </td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">2544</font></div></td><td width="126"> </td><td width="160"> </td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3057</font></div></td><td width="126"> </td><td width="160"> </td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Base</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3497</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">3769</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">3991</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">*Corporal* </font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3548</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">3836</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4071</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3599</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">3901</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4151</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3649</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">3966</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4232</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3698</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4033</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4312</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Base</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3643</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">3913</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4137</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">*MasterCorporal *</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3693</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">3981</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4217</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3742</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4049</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4296</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3794</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4112</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4376</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">3845</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4181</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4460</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Base</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4017</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4334</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4593</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5">*<font size="2">Sergeant</font>*</td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4057</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4374</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4636</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4097</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4418</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4677</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4142</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4461</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4718</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4181</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4499</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4760</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Base</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4476</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4693</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4872</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">*WarrantOfficer *</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4517</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4734</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4913</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4557</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4777</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4955</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4602</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4819</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">4999</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4643</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">4857</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5038</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Base</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4939</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5074</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5178</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">* MasterWarrant Officer *</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">4988</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5124</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5228</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5039</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5176</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5279</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5089</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5225</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5328</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5138</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5276</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5376</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Base</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5482</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5482</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5482</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="4"><font size="2">*ChiefWarrant Officer *</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5541</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5541</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5541</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5600</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5600</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5600</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5657</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5657</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5657</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">5712</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">5712</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">5712</font></div></td></tr></table></div><div align="left"><table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td><div align="center"><font size="4">*DAILYPAY RATE TABLES*</font>*<font size="3">
PRIMARY RESERVE
OFFICERS</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">*RANK*</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">*TABLE*</font></div></td><td width="6%">*<font size="2">BASIC</font>*</td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC1</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC2</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC3</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC4</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC5</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC6</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC7</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC8</font>*</div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC9 </font>*</div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center">*<font size="2">IPC10</font>*</div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Second-Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">A</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">79.04</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">83.66</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">85.02</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">92.20</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">A</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">103.78</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">107.02</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">110.28</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">113.26</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">116.22</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Lieutenant</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">B</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">123.74</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">127.14</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">130.22</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">135.02</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">139.90</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">A</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">129.70</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">134.68</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">139.54</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">144.48</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">149.24</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">153.88</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">158.46</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">163.18</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">165.88</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">168.62</font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2">171.44</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Captain</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">B</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">138.62</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">144.88</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">151.98</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">166.06</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">174.88</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">181.74</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">186.12</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">190.88</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">193.60</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">194.70</font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2">195.48</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">A</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">175.36</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">178.46</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">181.50</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">184.56</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">187.60</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">190.62</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">193.64</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">196.66</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="19%"><font size="2">Major</font></td><td width="3%"><div align="center"><font size="2">B</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">197.54</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">199.54</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">200.98</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">202.56</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">204.54</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">206.60</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">207.42</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2">208.64</font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="6%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td><td width="18%"><div align="center"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font></font></font></font></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="13">*<font size="2">TableA - General Service Officer
Table B - Pilot</font>*

*<font size="2">The rates for lessthan 6 hours are 50% of above rates. </font>*</td></tr></table>
</div><table width="668" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"><tr><td><div align="center"><font size="4">*DAILYPAY RATE TABLES*</font>*<font size="3">
PRIMARY RESERVE
NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS</font>*</div></td></tr></table><table width="668" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="136"> </td><td width="63"> </td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">*Stand*</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">*Spec1 *</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">*Spec2 *</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="4"><font size="2">*Private* </font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">66.98</font></div></td><td width="126"> </td><td width="160"> </td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">75.90</font></div></td><td width="126"> </td><td width="160"> </td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">85.44</font></div></td><td width="126"> </td><td width="160"> </td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Basic</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">97.72</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">105.34</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">111.54</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">*Corporal* </font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">99.16</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">107.20</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">113.76</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">100.58</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">109.02</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">116.00</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">101.98</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">110.84</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">118.26</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">103.34</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">112.70</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">120.50</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Basic</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">101.80</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">109.36</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">115.62</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">*Master
Corporal*</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">103.20</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">111.26</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">117.84</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">104.58</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">113.16</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">120.06</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">106.02</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">114.92</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">122.30</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">107.46</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">116.84</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">124.64</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Basic</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">112.26</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">121.12</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">128.36</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5">*<font size="2">Sergeant</font>*</td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">113.38</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">122.24</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">129.56</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">114.50</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">123.46</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">130.70</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">115.76</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">124.66</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">131.86</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">116.84</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">125.74</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">133.02</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Basic</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">125.08</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">131.16</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">136.16</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">*Warrant
Officer*</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">126.24</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">132.20</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">137.30</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">127.36</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">133.50</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">138.48</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">128.60</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">134.68 </font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">139.70</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">129.76</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">135.74 </font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">140.80</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Basic</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">138.02</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">141.80</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">144.70</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="5"><font size="2">*Master
Warrant
Officer*</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">139.40</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">143.20</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">146.10</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">140.82</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">144.64</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">147.52</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">142.22</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">146.02</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">148.90</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">143.58</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">147.44</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">150.24</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">Basic</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">153.20</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">153.20</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">153.20</font></div></td></tr><tr><td rowspan="4"><font size="2">*Chief
Warrant
Officer*</font></td><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">1</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">154.84</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">154.84</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">154.84</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">2</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">156.50</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">156.50</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">156.50</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">3</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">158.10</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">158.10</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">158.10</font></div></td></tr><tr><td width="63"><div align="center"><font size="2">4</font></div></td><td width="171"><div align="center"><font size="2">159.62</font></div></td><td width="126"><div align="center"><font size="2">159.62</font></div></td><td width="160"><div align="center"><font size="2">159.62</font></div></td></tr><tr><td colspan="5"><div align="center">*<font size="2">Theseare daily rates for more than 6 hours. For 6 hours or less, use half thedaily rate.</font>*</div></td></tr></table>


----------



## future_soldier

how do the pay differences work between different officer trades? (operations, supporting, engineers, etc.) Because I assume an engineer would make more than say an infantry officer, right?


----------



## combat_medic

The amount of money you make is dependant on rank, not trade.

A Captain will make the same amount whether he‘s a doctor, lawyer, engineer or infantry officer. The only extra money is in the recruiting bonuses. The trades that they‘re really seeking out right now will offer you a signing bonus. (10,000-200,000$)

Note, this bonus only works if you‘re already qualified. If you go to RMC or ROTP, you don‘t qualify for the signing bonus.


----------



## Shrapnel

Actually, I believe doctors are under a different pay system.
They go by a contract instead.
Thus a Medical Officer Captain would make around 100k a year compared to an Infantry Officer Captain who would make about 60k a year.


I have also heard that certain trades get ‘spec‘ pay (I don‘t know the designation) in order to retain soldiers.

I heard they were going to put MPs under spec pay as well to prevent them from quitting and pursuing more lucrative civy jobs.


Pilots are under an entirely different pay scale altogether to discourage them from leaving for civilian jobs.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Pay and allowances for the CF can be found under this site:
Queenâ€™s Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Forces - Volume III - Financial


----------



## holywars33

I have seen the latest pay rate tables on the DND web site and I know that infantry (maybe other trades too) get 20 paid days off a year and 25 after 5 years.  However I am wodering since the pay rate tables are broken into monthly pay what can I expect per year in infantry (reg force)?  Can I just multiply the number by 12 or is there "downtime" where infantry is not working and not paid for a month or more?


----------



## klumanth

just multiply by 12.  And you can actually make more than that by going on tours, getting field pay, etc. etc.


----------



## typhoon85

U have to remember that money comes off for things like income tax, pension (canada and military right?), room and board. And whatever else im missing.


----------



## Thaedes

As a reg in the infantry your looking at approx $23,000 a year.  Not much.  But consider that for your first year your spending almost all of your time in training, and at the facilities so the cost of living is dramatically reduced.  If your smart with your money, you‘ll find that you‘ll have quite a bit left after the first year.


----------



## biggie786

According to recent pay schedule...it‘s actually around 27000k per year


----------



## MuayThaiFighter

How much would you guys say an Infantry soldier in reserves generally gets paid per year?


----------



## McInnes

go down to recruiting archives, and go to pay scales.
or go to  Join The Forces and find the pay scales for reserves there.


----------



## McInnes

i‘ve decided to make your life easier.
Pres Pay Scales


----------



## MuayThaiFighter

Thank-You


----------



## Ruthless4Life

Also, you can go to your local regiment website where they have more detailed information on the payscale.

BTW, you‘re from Vancouver, are you joining the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada?


----------



## shado_wolf

Actually here is the current pay tables

Current RES pay table 

Here is the main page with all the tables

All pay tables


----------



## rolandstrong

Go Seaforths!


----------



## MuayThaiFighter

When they say you do helicopter operations at Seaforth Highlanders of Canada do they mean actually flying helicopters or working along with the guys that fly them?


----------



## gate_guard

Or if you want to parade at a regiment that has more than just a platoon show up, go Westies (oohhh, yes i did!). But seriously, whichever one you go to, more power to ya. And re: choppers, rides are few and far in between, the first ones cool, after that it‘s just another mode of transport.


----------



## rolandstrong

we have 3 platoons that regularly show up, not one.


----------



## combat_medic

If you want to fly a helicopter, you need to

a. be a canadian citizen
b. have a university degree
c. be in the reg force OR have a helicopter liscence already (worth about $15,000) and be near a rotary wing capable base 
d. be in the air force

so, there‘s not even the slightest, vaguest chance in he|| about flying one as a reserve army NCM... EVER!!!


----------



## OLD SCHOOL

Helo rides are great but only for the take off.
Prefer to land on my own two feet.
Have about 2000 take offs in them but only 250 or so landings.The rest we handled on our own.
American 53‘s are a treat.Big mothers.


----------



## rolandstrong

I never saw helicopter ops at the Seaforth regiment when i was an NCM before, and certainly not this last year. Medic, do you know anything about that?


----------



## igor P

What does these means
           Stand  Spec 1   Spec 2  
Private  1 66.98     
         2 75.90     
         3 85.44     
     Basic 97.72  105.34   111.54 
?????
What is STAND and SPEC1 and 2 means
and those 1 2 3 numbers 
I guess those are the ranks you get , but how do you get higher rank?


And I have one more question to ask. Me and my friend would like to join army but we would like to be together all the time. Is that possible. We would chose same carrier. 

And do you have to pay anything such as book or classes ?


THANX


----------



## combat_medic

Stand means "Standard" or the pay that the majority of the CF gets. "Spec" means specialist, which refers to certain trades in which you need extra qualifications. If you‘re joining the reserves as an NCM, don‘t worry about this, it won‘t apply to you. If you and your friend want to join at the same time, then go for it, but do NOT have any expectation of staying together. On most courses, assuming you were even on the same course, they like to split up people as much as possible. That way, you learn to work with people you‘re not friends with... necessarily.

To advance in rank, you need to take courses and have a certain amount of time in each rank. As for books and classes, yes, there are a great many formal classes with books, studying and written tests. The higher up in rank you get, the higher the percentage is of "textbook learning."

Oh, and just a note, not to be offensive, but you may want to seriously consider taking some English classes before joining. From what I‘ve seen of your writing, you might have some problems with the written test to get in, since your first language isn‘t English. Just a suggestion.


----------



## bbupd

As a basic recruit, what is the actual take home pay at the end of the pay week?

I have seen all the charts and such but I am curious to know what the actual deposit is after room, board, tax are all taken...

Thanks.


----------



## klumanth

I think it works out to about $600/every two weeks after rations and quarters.


----------



## meni0n

I just got back from my basic at Shilo and I got paid about 860$ every two weeks that‘s clean already after taxes. I still have to go and get my 16.50$ away from home pay times 58 days. But that‘s the Comm Res School so I don‘t know about reg force but I was being paid about 71.40$ a day.


----------



## shado_wolf

kinda related.....

For reg force when you go to basic, how long till the first payday?

Workin out the budget so my wife and I don‘t get caught short...


----------



## mic911

It depends on when you start.  Paydays are on the closest working days to the 15th and end of the month. I think it took me about 3 weeks until I got my first pay deposit.


----------



## Armymedic

Before anyone puts in thier 2 cents worth:
1. If you have no overseas experience,
2. Have no clue how they determine Risk and Hardship points, and
3. Unless you have something interesting to say how they will implment it,

Then just sum up before you start...

You may not think it is, but this article is a true morale killer for those of us still in Bosnia on this "not dangerous" mission. Quote from below:
"While service in places such as Afghanistan qualify as high risk, Bosnia does not." unquote. Its not like they don't already rake it in on the higher benifits for risk and hardship.

 http://www.canada.com/national/features/budget_2004/story.html?id=499525bb-8d55-4bff-b9a7-8dfbfa330b2d 


Budget gives tax break to soldiers, police on high-risk missions
   
John Ward 
Canadian Press 
March 23, 2004

OTTAWA -- Troops and police sent abroad on high-risk operations will not pay taxes on the money they earn while deployed, under a new break announced in Tuesday's budget. 

It was a largely symbolic gesture in a document which offered the beleaguered military some extra money for peacekeeping bills and promises of some future cash for new search-and-rescue planes. 

Any big budget jump, which many say is needed to keep the Forces afloat and replace their rusting equipment, will depend on the outcome of a policy review expected to be completed by the end of the year. 

The tax break, which is retroactive to Jan. 1 this year, will save soldiers and police officers about $30 million a year. It comes on top of existing tax-free bonuses for hazardous duty areas. 

Salaries up to $6,000 a month are covered. That's the maximum earned by a chief warrant officer, the highest non-commissioned rank. Junior officers up to the rank of captain will get the full benefit, while more senior officers will have to pay taxes on that portion of their pay that exceeds the $6,000 limit. 

Not all troops abroad will qualify. While service in places such as Afghanistan qualify as high risk, Bosnia does not. There are about 1,800 Canadians in Afghanistan and about 900 in Bosnia. The mission in Haiti, with about 450 soldiers, has yet to be classified in the military's four-level risk assessment system. 

The budget also allotted $300 million to cover extra costs of the peace missions in Afghanistan and Haiti and pledged to cover all such incremental costs in future missions. Under the old policy, the military never knew how much extra money it might get to cover unexpected deployments. 

There was another $300 million promised for next year to speed up the purchase of new search-and-rescue aircraft. The air force uses aging Buffalo and some Hercules transports in the role and had hoped to replace them with a dedicated, twin-engine search-and-rescue plane around 2010 or so. 

Now, the replacements will start arriving within 18 months, Finance Minister Ralph Goodale said. 

In a gesture to history, the budget also provided $1.5 million to help the Juno Beach Centre in Normandy commemorate the 60th anniversary of the D-Day landings during the Second World War. Juno was the code name for the Canadian landing site during the invasion. 

With this "incentive", I personally will hesitate voluntering for those less "risky" missions. I am interested to see how it all plays out...

As for the rest...just another popcorn fart.

Have fun...


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

I think personally that whenever we are deployed on any UN/NATO mission we should not have had to pay income tax at all. I am surprised that Bosnia does not qualify.


----------



## MG34

I think it is somewhat flawed but sure I‘ll take the tax break.Bosnia is not a dangerous place hasn‘t been for a few years now,I know that some of you that were just there were bitching about the "roto that the world forgot" and other nonsense,but face it nothing is happening there!Bosnia is on par with tours such as the Golan Heights,Cyprus (when we had a large contingent)no direct threat to CF personel.
 Bosnia should have been shut down a few years ago,it‘s over and done with.


----------



## axeman

I agree bosnia is not like ity used to be . try it early 90‘s. try haveing the "WARRING FACTIONS"
fire their rounds right through your OP area. which means haveing intresting holes in your flag.
Jeez the worst thing about Bosnia now is when your iso trailer heats up or you sunburnyourself on r and r .   :cam:


----------



## sgt_mandal

I was just wondering, where are there Canadian soldiers in the world other than Bosnia and the Middle East?


----------



## Armymedic

Check on DND.ca under current operations. A total of just under 3800 people...It will be interesting to see which they class as "high-risk". Unfortunately the DGPB site which says what the risk and hardship for each AOR is not avail...

 http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/current_ops_e.asp


----------



## Jarnhamar

"Bosnia should have been shut down a few years ago,it‘s over and done with."

People probably said there was no reason for soldiers to be peacekeeping in Kosovo either.

I don‘t think we should have shut down the bosnian mission years ago, i think we should have changed our focus there and what missions and operations we did.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Armymedic:
> [qb] Before anyone puts in thier 2 cents worth:
> 1. If you have no overseas experience,
> 2. Have no clue how they determine Risk and Hardship points, and
> 3. Unless you have something interesting to say how they will implment it,
> 
> Then just sum up before you start... [/qb]


Heh, you forgot some other qualifications for participating in your bitchfest

4. If you don‘t have a proclivity to whining
5. If you are likely to disagree with me
6. If you fail to see the brilliance and logic behind my post

Hmmm, I suppose I could draw up my own caveats for which you can obtain permission to comment on this.

1. If you have never held public office,
2. If you have never been responsible for a budget in excess of 100 million dollars,
3. If you have never had to make tougher decisions than what kind of beer to buy in the mess,
4. If any decision you have ever made has not affected more than 1000 lives or the personal incomes of those people

Maybe you should just sum up before you start.


----------



## Paul F

Rather than the income tax break for soldiers serving overseas, I‘d rather see that money they would be paying for taxes go to fund new equipment that is desperately needed in the CF.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Paul F,
Kinda what we expected to hear from you. Not much sense having all that new equipment if everyone gets out or is too burnt out to use it. Although, I‘m quite sure you‘d be more than willing to step up to the plate and fill the gap, eh? Besides, how much, if any, of the criteria posted here do you fit into to be able to speak on the subject?


----------



## Jarnhamar

You heading into work tomorrow paul? If your at the kingston armories i‘ll be the guy ringing the bell buying all the cheap students some booze and harassing all the new harry potterish looking privates, you should say hello.

Michael i don‘t think armymedic asked for anything crazy. Seems to me he simply wanted the opinion of someone with overseas experience or knowledge about what hardship allowence is. Some questions can be answered by everyone and others i‘d say best left to people int he military. This is an army forum after all. If it‘s his post he should be able to make up it‘s guidelines, no?


----------



## bossi

> Rather than the income tax break for soldiers serving overseas, I‘d rather see that money they would be paying for taxes go to fund new equipment that is desperately needed in the CF.


Rather than the income tax break for a certain student studying in Kingston, I‘d rather see that money they would be paying for taxes go to fund an attitude adjustment that is desperately needed in the aforementioned moron.


----------



## Doug VT

Come on Armymedic!  SFOR is past being an exceptionally dangerous operation.  However, that being said, I completely agree with Ex-Dragoon.  It should be all or none.  Besides, it‘s just another little piddley offering to take the publics eye off the main issues anyway.  While the public is thinking Hooray for the military we‘re thinking WTF!?  All most of our military ever gripes about is "give us more money".  Why?  I get paid pretty well.  I knew that DND wouldn‘t make me rich, but I certainly don‘t have any problems with money other then my own mismanagement.  Talk about fair?  What in this "military" can you call fair?  Doesn‘t sound very professional to me to be getting all sad that you‘re missing an opportunity to get some more money.  We still get allowances, right?  Anyway‘s, what I was saying was that its all just smoke and mirrors anyway, no real benefit other then a little "good press" for the government.

And about this "roto that the world forgot".(Don‘t worry, this isn‘t aimed at you Medic)  When I heard about this, in Afghanistan, it was all I could do to restrain myself from writing a bunch of nastygrams.  Whoever thought of this clever little ploy was a complete idiot.  If I was in Bosnia I would be completely embarrassed to be on that ROTO.  I‘ve done 2 SFOR ROTO‘s, one was over Christmas.  We weren‘t competing with any other operations, but I can assure you that we received no special treatment, no extra news coverage.  Two soldiers died on my first tour, from my camp, there was no fanfare.  What makes ROTO whatever any different?  All I can think about to explain this forgotten "phenomenon" is that maybe there were a lot of first timers on this tour.  The fact the both tours were predominantly out of Petawawa?  Some hard feeling that maybe some would have liked to have gone to Afghanistan instead.  I can think of at least 10 people who wished, or would have wished that they had gone to Bosnia instead.  Lets try to be soldiers and get on with our job without constantly complaining that someone might possibly have it better then you.

Dorosh, instead of spouting off a bunch of political crap, try posting something that shows you can actually think for yourself.

Paul, your right, we do need equipment.  Unfortunately, it seems that too often the wrong products are acquired for the wrong reasons.  This "tax cut" is only trying to draw attention away from this sad state of affairs.  But we need more soldiers to do the job as well, our military doesn‘t have the size to do the tempo of operations that we continue to commit ourselves to.  Time between deployments is only getting shorter and shorter.  Sometimes it seems as though there are more people getting out then in.  We won‘t last long at this rate.  So few promotion opportunities, only 10-15% of our soldiers get a fair chance at advancing.  I really hope that things will get better, but I‘m afraid that we‘re still on our way to the bottom now...


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Doug and Ghost:

With regards to "political crap" - this entire conversation is about a political decision.  The fact that armymedic wanted input only from people overseas kind of indicates that armymedic realizes they don‘t have a leg to stand on, and just wants to commiserate with some fellow pissers and moaners.

Personally, I don‘t have an opinion one way or the other, but it baffles me to see discussion of a political decision based solely on the perspective of the grunts.  And from what you‘ve posted, Doug, it sounds like you agree with the basis for the decision - that those in Bosnia are not in any real danger.

So the question is - what does this tax exemption represent.  If it is seperation pay, than yes, it should be all or nothing.

If it is danger pay, then the risk assessment seems - from what has been posted in this thread by those who have been there - about accurate.

If those who have not served overseas aren‘t "entitled" to express an opinion, it follows that those who have never had to make decisions like this are equally unentitled to have an opinion.  Walk a mile in each other‘s shoes?  I doubt either side would really care to.

I think the wisest comment here has been putting the money to new equipment, and yes, I agree this does seem a little like vote buying - much like the farm aid in Alberta the other day.

We really won‘t be in a position to judge til after the next election.

So Doug, if you don‘t want politics to enter into the thread, why mention the vote-buying?


----------



## Infanteer

What are we argueing about?  Who ever got into this job for the money anyways?

Bosnia is no more dangerous than being on the LAPD beat.


----------



## Doug VT

Sorry Mike, a little venting!  This is what I meant was crap:



> 1. If you have never held public office,
> 2. If you have never been responsible for a budget in excess of 100 million dollars,
> 3. If you have never had to make tougher decisions than what kind of beer to buy in the mess,
> 4. If any decision you have ever made has not affected more than 1000 lives or the personal incomes of those people


Sure their job isn‘t easy, but neither is mine.  I wouldn‘t expect them to be able to fill my shoes either.  But I can tell you that I‘ve had to make quick decisions on the spot that affected the lives of my friends and myself.  Almost every profession has that tough decision lurking around the corner.  The question is will you rise to the challenge, or fall apart?


----------



## Armymedic

Regardless of anyones opinion of how dangerous a place is on a given day, or has been in the past, lets break it down for future missions...

I find it unfair that this excellent tax break is exclusive. It should include all members of the CF who are serving overseas in any operation, and then the benifits of increase risk and hardship are then providing the additional finacial benifit for being in the "shite".
Is one soldier serving overseas away from his family in any given zone of operations better then another?

Doug, MG34,
I was talking about the added finacial incetives for those tours with risk factor of 3 and 4 vs tours like Bosnia (level 2). Roto 13 has been no more or less dangerous (in my humble opinion) then it was for us on Roto 8. And I agree that we shouldn‘t be here anymore, but will be for the next yr or so, until they can pull us all out of here. 
And Doug, you know me, like I had a choice on which tour I could go..."Your previous experience there will be valuable, MCpl" followed by more hot air up my....

More: that "roto the world forgot" stuff started back home because of the total lack of news and support for families of people in Bosnia, especially compared to Afghanistan. Cassie Campbell, Kirk Maclean, and the Tiger stopping over in VK on route to Kabul and telling people there that they had no idea there were Canadians in Bosnia, did help either. But if this discussion was worthy of a thread, it would have been discussed. So let us let it die.

Lets get back on track now...


----------



## Armymedic

How this for how we here in Bosnia feel. Heres proof its not just the Jr NCO‘s who think this is unfair:

 http://www.canada.com/OwenSound/story.html?id=17f4c075-3a73-4bff-8a2a-18f03d1696ce 

Troops in Bosnia rate tax break too, boss says
It‘s not Afghanistan, but it‘s still dangerous

Mike Blanchfield 
Ottawa Citizen; CanWest News Service 

Thursday, March 25, 2004

OTTAWA - The commander of Canadian soldiers in Bosnia says his hardworking troops deserve the same tax break as their comrades in Afghanistan.

"I‘d like to see my soldiers get it," Col. John Tattersall, 44, said Wednesday from Velika Kladusa, Bosnia, where he commands 900 troops.

"I think they‘ve earned it. But that‘s a decision, the government has to decide. I‘ll accept what the government decides. But would I like my soldiers to get it? Yes. They‘ve worked hard for it. They‘ve earned it."

The government announced in Tuesday‘s budget that military personnel serving on foreign assignments -- officially classified as dangerous -- would not have to pay income tax for the duration of their deployments.

But the Defence Department‘s classification criteria has come under fire because certain world hotspots are not designated as dangerous -- namely Bosnia, which has achieved a relative stability after more than a decade of turmoil, marked by ethnic cleansing and genocide.

"The soldiers‘ attitude is they know we‘re not as sexy as Afghanistan, but we‘re doing just as an important a mission," said Tattersall, pointing out that 40,000 Canadian soldiers have rotated through the Balkans in the last 12 years to help restore stability.

"There‘s been 25 who have died here. As soldiers, we‘ve gone to **** and back, literally, in this theatre of operations," said Tattersall.

"War broke out around Canadian soldiers here in 1993 in the initial breakup of the former Yugoslavia. They were here when the ‘95 war broke out. They were here and saw it and imposed the peace. They‘ve very proud of what they‘ve done."

The test of that success, said Tattersall, came in the last week when the worst ethnic violence in five years erupted in neighbouring Kosovo but did not spread to Bosnia. The flareup left 28 dead and forced the evacuation of 3,600 Serbs to protected enclaves.

Currently, the tax break would apply to about 1,800 Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, the Congo, Lebanon and Israel, according to senior defence officials. The Haiti mission has yet to be classified.

But air force crews of a Hercules supply aircraft, for instance, would only be exempt from paying tax on the days that they fly in and out of an area such as Afghanistan, not the full duration of their deployments.

A soldier wounded in a dangerous location would also have to start paying tax once they are evacuated to a more secure area, said senior military officials.

The tax breaks are retroactive to Jan. 1, 2004, which also means that some 2,000 soldiers who served in Afghanistan in the first rotation of the ongoing deployment and returned to Canada in February would only qualify for a few weeks of the tax break.

"We have a stable and a secure peace here. I‘d call it fragile. I certainly wouldn‘t call it self-sustaining. There‘s still a military mission here," said Tattersall, who was also speaking on the fifth anniversary of the commencement of a NATO bombing campaign to free ethnic Albanians from Serb aggressors in Kosovo.

Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan learned many of their peace-building techniques -- such as patrolling and reaching out to local ethnic communities -- from their predecessors in the Balkans, said Tattersall.


----------



## bossi

You can only read this if you are cleared to "RUMOUR" ...

Ottawa may extend tax break to more soldiers 
Last Updated Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:38:15 
OTTAWA - Ottawa says it may expand the tax exemption granted to police officers and soldiers in this week‘s budget. 

Soldiers in Bosnia and sailors aboard Canadian warships in the Persian Gulf, however, are not eligible. Their assignments were seen as less dangerous. Defence Minister David Pratt now says the government is rethinking that. 

"There was always the understanding that the minister of national defence would be able to go back to cabinet at some point if he wished to have another mission looked at from the standpoint of its rating," he told reporters outside the House of Commons. 

The minister says he expects the measure to cost about $30 million. "I don‘t think it‘s going to break the bank," he said. 

Pratt says he also wants to hear from the provinces. He wants to know whether they will match the federal measures. 

Written by CBC News Online staff 

++++++

Tax break for soldiers may be extended, says defence minister
Canadian Press 
Thursday, March 25, 2004


OTTAWA (CP) - The government is considering extending an income tax break to more overseas soldiers, Defence Minister David Pratt said Thursday just 48 hours after the measure was announced in the federal budget. 

The tax break, offered to troops and police on high-risk international missions, currently applies to about 2,000 Canadian personnel in Afghanistan. It does not cover more than 900 soldiers in Bosnia and Haiti. After hearing some complaints, Pratt said the measure could be extended as early as next week. 

He said the tax break was based on the Defence Department‘s risk-measurement system, which placed the Afghanistan deployment at a riskier level than the eight-year-old Bosnia peacekeeping mission and the recent policing effort in Haiti. 

"But there was always the understanding that the minister of national defence would be able to go back to cabinet at some point if he wished to have another mission looked at from the standpoint of its rating," Pratt said outside the Commons. 

That‘s happening sooner rather than later due to some grumbling in the ranks. 

"It‘s only natural that under the circumstances that people would ask questions about particular missions," Pratt said. 

The tax-holiday program was budgeted to cost $30 million. Pratt said he didn‘t know how much more a wider program would cost. 

"I don‘t think it‘s going to break the bank." 
++++++


----------



## Garry

When I first heard of the tax breaks, I thought it was wonderful incentive. Repeated overseas tasking suck, but at least we would receive a little more compensation for the time away from home. I wasn‘t aware of the delineation of danger areas.

There are many posters above who quite rightly say that we are not in this for the money, and that we are fairly compensated. 

I agree, 100%.

Point in fact, though, is that we were NOT well compensated for a long time. We did the job as we had no other choice- I for one could not have conceived of life outside the Corps. Further, I don‘t regret a second of the time I spent there, nor the sacrifices I made- besides, we didn‘t view them as "sacrifices"- everyone was gone all the time, it was the job.

Looking back, I now realise what a hardship it was on my family. I was having a ball, they were struggling along without me- I averaged 9 months a year away- and my poor wife (who NEVER complained) did my job and hers. Kid did without Dad- heck, I found out years later that even the dogs were idiots while I was gone.

Take a look at other country‘s- a Bud in the States just found out that his State has provisions for disabled Vets- first 50,000$ of property/house and two vehicles- no tax. It goes on, but the message here is plain and simple- the Soldiers, while being compensated for their time, are also recognised as making a sacrifice for their country- and as such, are exempt from certain taxes.

You young guys shouldn‘t need/want/care about this- it‘s up to us "old guys" to realise the truth, and make it happen for you idealistc young‘uns.   

I think making all of those who serve tax free while overseas is a great idea.

Cheers-Garry


----------



## tmbluesbflat

No active serving member of the forces should be paying an income tax in the first place, it is only a smoke screen of bureaucrats make work project, invented in the 1960‘s as another boondoggle, more waste! All things as benefits should be a no brainer not a book keepers nightmare, you serve, you get period all benefits!!!!


----------



## Armymedic

Now I had a couple days to cool down...

Micheal, 
Whats up with this BS;


> With regards to "political crap" - this entire conversation is about a political decision. The fact that armymedic wanted input only from people overseas kind of indicates that armymedic realizes they don‘t have a leg to stand on, and just wants to commiserate with some fellow pissers and moaners.


Give me some credit. My intent was to limit this discussion to those who:
a. would be affected,
b. understand how being deployed affected soldiers AND thier families (cause after all the family back home wins big with the cash too, dispite all the stressors you wouldn‘t understand.)
c. may actually have some constructive input to the conversation, both for and against.

It was also to limit the "I just thing is a good/bad idea, just because it is." posts from people who don‘t know the details. Details, BTW, which I am more then happy to provide if asked.

Also as political decisions go, if they would have included all deployed CF members on all operations, right from the start, then the current gov‘t would have hit a home run for supporting the military. 
As it is now, it is being taken as another half hearted, morale destroying, stop-gap attempt to show the Cdn people that the Gov‘t "loves" and supports its military. If you think this sucks for me, think of how these 600 troops just arriving here now days after this announcement was made feel about serving in Bosnia for the next 6 months....not to mention the "missions not forgotten because they are totally ignored and nobody knows about them at all" in Golan Heights, ships at sea in the Persian Gulf, and UNMO‘s around the world wherever.

AND if you want to start including Cols and Generals (Not just Cdn, but a Brit LCol also, I was talking today to) whiners, pissers and moaners for pointing out what the Gov‘t screwed this up, then by god, feel free....

But then your defence would be, "Oh, but you‘re not entitled to that benefit"


----------



## bossi

Well, the politics of this may get even more interesting ...
I am NOT defending the initial decision to give the tax exemption to only certain missions - however, I do believe it might have been difficult to sell (i.e. to dis-interested civvie pukes) - thus, they used Afghanistan as a "foot in the door".
Then, when public opinion overwhelmingly supported the idea (remember, the smarmy little pukes working for the Liberal party live and breath by the polls ...), plus they started to realise they opened up Pandora‘s box vis-a-vis not giving the exemption to others who undertake equally poopy deployments ... the government can no seize the "moral high ground" by extending the benefit to more missions - thus, they dominate the headlines for a few more days, and take away some ink and print space from the sponsorship scandal (after all - the politicans are infinitely more worried about their own political fate ... right?)



> Also as political decisions go, if they would have included all deployed CF members on all operations, right from the start, then the current gov‘t would have hit a home run for supporting the military.


Start thinking like a team player.
Sometimes, you score a run by getting on base first, and then somebody else hits you home ...


----------



## Armymedic

Good point.

Now MND, Rt Hon Pratt, will look like a god for getting this exemption for all CF and police personnel, regardless of the tour. Not to mention the added print and air time when it is announced. 
Or maybe he did try and this was the compramise that was struck, and there will be no change to the policy. Either way...

Thats why I am not in politics.


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Armymedic:
> [qb] Good point.
> 
> Now MND, Rt Hon Pratt, will look like a god for getting this exemption for all CF and police personnel, regardless of the tour. Not to mention the added print and air time when it is announced.
> Or maybe he did try and this was the compromise that was struck, and there will be no change to the policy. Either way...
> 
> Thats why I am not in politics. [/qb]


Pecker Checker,
IMO if your over seas you should not have to pay any income tax!
In 96/97 when I was Roto 0 they tried to screw us on our danger pay!!We engineer‘s said screw you we are not going in to a hazardous area!At that time it took six week‘s before we got our due and all was explained.

In War I will do it but not the for the grandeur of our Government,which is happening to day and this latest is a ploy to keep the young lad‘s in.
Just a ploy to stop the release from all Arm‘s.
Yes I‘m a cynic.


----------



## bossi

Yup - "Pandora‘s Box" ...



> Support staff want same tax breaks as soldiers
> The civilian group is part of the Forces, but it was not mentioned in the PM's budget
> 
> (Vancouver Sun reporter Frances Bula is spending two months following Canada's troops in Afghanistan and filing dispatches for CanWest News Service.)
> 
> CAMP JULIEN, Afghanistan â â€ While Canadian soldiers got the news two weeks ago that those serving on dangerous missions will be temporarily exempted from taxes â â€ two other groups working at Canadian military camps in Afghanistan are anxious to hear about their tax status.
> Those whose tax fate still hangs in the balance includes approximately 160 Canadians working for SNC-Lavalin and the 50 who are part of a civilian-support group within the Department of National Defence.
> And, although they don't knock the federal-tax exemption the soldiers were granted in the federal budget, they feel they're going through similar risks and deserve similar treatment.
> â Å“We're going through the same hardships. We live in the same conditions. We've replaced soldiers to do their jobs so they can do the hard core stuff. And bombs have a tendency not to discriminate,â ? says Dan Boudreau, the deputy project manager for SNC-Lavalin's operations. The Canadians among the 400 employees here are concentrated in construction engineering and supervision, and some have to travel through Kabul to other locations where Canadian soldiers are working.
> But the two groups are waiting for decisions from different branches of the government.
> The 50 people from the Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency, who staff the camp store and the welfare offices that provide recreation and entertainment, are waiting for a ruling on if they are included in the tax exemption.
> â Å“We assume we'll get it, but I told my people not to get their hopes up,â ? said Switch Rousseau, the agency's welfare manager. The civilian group is considered part of the Canadian Forces, and their jobs were in fact done by soldiers until 1997. But Rousseau said the fact the budget language on the tax exemption specifically mentioned soldiers, police and RCMP serving abroad, but not the civilian support staff, made everyone hold off on celebrating. She expects to get word about a ruling any day.
> The ruling will have a significant
> impact for the CFPSA staff, since almost all of them make under $72,000. The exemption said all soldiers making less than $72,000 would be exempted from federal taxes as of Jan. 1, 2004, for time served on dangerous missions such as Afghanistan and Haiti. The announcement opened a can of worms for the government, since Canadian soldiers who served the first six months in Afghanistan and those currently serving in Bosnia were not included.
> For the people working for the private contractor, the tax dilemma is a different story. Boudreau says the Prime Minister's Office has applied to Revenue Canada, together with SNC-Lavalin, to have the company's employees get the same tax benefit as those working on a UN mission. The application was made in January and the company is still awaiting that decision.
> That overseas employment tax credit is normally given to employees of private companies who are considered to be doing development work.
> â Å“The question is do we qualify or not. You could argue that we're part of the peace-building operation of the Canadian soldiers, which is development work,â ? said Boudreau.
> But for the moment, it has warned its employees not to claim an overseas tax credit.
> The company doesn't want to see the same problems experienced by employees of the previous private contractor.
> People who had worked for ATCO, which provided logistical support to Canadian troops in Bosnia, claimed the credit and then were ordered by Revenue Canada to pay it back.


----------



## chk2fung

Hi 

I was wondering about the Canadian Forces pay scale.  Not that it really bothere me, cause I think there‘s no better job then the CF.  All I know about the pay scale is moving down and to the right is GOOD!!!

I was told pay depends on education adn time in.  is this correct?  I‘m not exactly sure how they fit you in each pay category and I‘m not talking about specialist stuff, like combat diving, jump pay, EOD etc.  For example if you have a master‘s degree or a doctorate what category would you fit under.  Similarly if you‘ve been in for 20 years and you‘re a Warrant what would yo be in the same pay scale as a Warrant that‘s been in for 25 years.  If you hold a professional designation like a CA or P.Eng. do they consider that in your pay.  For example lawyers, doctors, pilots get paid more.  Lawyers, doctors, chaplains are commissioned captains. why is that?  Engineers and medical officers get signing bonuses is this merely because there are a lack of them.  Are there signing bonuses for NCM trades?


----------



## Gryphon

Yeah.. comms.. i think that if your already a qualified sig op, then they give you a 40 000$ bonus..

maybe someone can confirm this tho


----------



## Paul F

> Originally posted by chk2fung:
> [qb] Hi
> 
> I was wondering about the Canadian Forces pay scale.  Not that it really bothere me, cause I think there‘s no better job then the CF.  All I know about the pay scale is moving down and to the right is GOOD!!!
> 
> I was told pay depends on education adn time in.  is this correct?  I‘m not exactly sure how they fit you in each pay category and I‘m not talking about specialist stuff, like combat diving, jump pay, EOD etc.  For example if you have a master‘s degree or a doctorate what category would you fit under.  Similarly if you‘ve been in for 20 years and you‘re a Warrant what would yo be in the same pay scale as a Warrant that‘s been in for 25 years.  If you hold a professional designation like a CA or P.Eng. do they consider that in your pay.  For example lawyers, doctors, pilots get paid more.  Lawyers, doctors, chaplains are commissioned captains. why is that?  Engineers and medical officers get signing bonuses is this merely because there are a lack of them.  Are there signing bonuses for NCM trades? [/qb]


That‘s correct, moving to the right and down is good. If you are an untrained recruit(ie. you aren‘t trained in your specific trade), you will start as a private. They make just over 2,000 a month(about 26,000 a year), before taxes and get a pay increase every year on the anniversary of their enlistment date. Then after 4 years(sometimes 3) you will be automatically be promoted to Corporal, which has a starting pay around 40,000 a year and a pay topping out at just under 48,000 a year. From there, you have to earn all your promotions from there. Every year you will be evaluated by your superiors and then from a pool of all the people in your trade, they will make a merit list. So when someone retires, the first person on the list will be promoted, when another person  retires, the second person on the merit list will be promoted. You get the picture. Every year the merit list is redone to reflect the past year. Specialist pay is for some select trades(ie. Technicians) and they get a couple hundred extra a month just for being in the trade. On top of that the combat pay, jump pay, hazard pay, etc. is paid to all those who qualify.

If you have a Master‘s or Doctorate degree you would most likely go in as an Officer. Starting off as a 2Lt. then being automatically promoted to Lt. after a couple years and then Captain after that. Captain‘s make around 80,000 a year. Not bad. From there they can be promoted every few years to Maj., Lt-Col, Col, etc. just like NCM. Like NCM‘s, they are put to a merit board to decide who is most worthy of a promote.  

Your pay isn‘t really dictated by the time you have in. You get paid based on your rank and time in at that rank. When you get promoted there are 3-4 pay increases that you get automatically each year. So a Warrant Officer, would get a pay increase of 100-200/month for the first 3-4 years he/she was at that rank and then after that their pay would stay the same until they were promoted again and the cycle would repeat itself. By the way, I‘m not sure how much the increases are or how much WO‘s make, but it‘s around the 100-200 range. 

If you had a degree like P.Eng, you probably wouldn‘t get any extra pay to the best of my knowledge. You would be enlisted as an officer probably and make the same as most other officer at your rank. Lawyers, Pilots, and Doctors are a whole other ball of wax. They get extra pay and signing bonuses because the CF is desperate for them and wants to retain them once they get them. That‘s why they make so much money, the CF is trying to compete with civilian companies for doctors, lawyers, and pilots and if they knew they could get more in the civilian world, they would jump at the chance(money makes the world go ‘round!)

There are sometimes signing bonuses for NCM‘s. Depends on your training, the need for new recruits in the trade, etc. If they are low on people and you are trained, you will probably get some sort of signing bonus.


----------



## meni0n

Basic captain pay is 60k a year and you‘ll have to earn all the ranks above captain just like you earn all the ranks above cpl.


----------



## rdschultz

> Originally posted by gryphon664:
> [qb] Yeah.. comms.. i think that if your already a qualified sig op, then they give you a 40 000$ bonus..
> 
> maybe someone can confirm this tho [/qb]


The $40,000 bonuses are for signal officers, and other engineering officers.  

Some NCM trades have either a $10k and $25k bonuses.


----------



## GerryCan

I just returned from Roto 13 so I‘m going to put in my ‘2 cents worth as well.‘
I‘m not sure why there is such a fuss over an income tax break for people being deployed in Bosnia right now. A few years back, yes I would definetely agree. But the system they are abiding by now may not be perfect or ‘fair‘ to some, but it makes sense. 
Why should we who just got back from a 6 month vacation where we did just as many ‘Ex‘s‘ as we did ‘Ops‘ be eligible for an income tax break?
Sure I woke up many-a-morning wondering what the **** I was doing in that forsaken country, but it sure as **** wasn‘t because of the fact that I missed my wifey back home so dearly and couldn‘t take the non-existent stress anymore. It was because nothing at all is going on there, what is the mission there as it stands? Yeah talk all the jargon of the Difference we are making there, but it still doesn‘t add up, what‘s done is done and let‘s move on. 
Whereas  the boys in Afghanistan do have the constant threat that is substantially larger than anything that is remotely considered a threat in Bosnia. Yeah one time I almost got hit by a car walking across the street to the CD shop in between naps. Come off it. I for one on my first tour got around 1200 extra/ month to do gate shifts, a few patrols here and there, respond to a couple car accidents, one of which received a CO‘s accomodation(????) and talk to the locals. Bad go? I think not. Afghanistan, Haiti? Totally different ball game, they may or may not sit around like we did, but in a completely different environment.
But like I said, just my opinion, among pretty much everyone else I worked with.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Gerry, 





> one of which received a CO‘s accomodation(????)


So what did you do that the CO gave you his quarters? Oh wait.. You mean CO‘s commendation! Just kidding


----------



## soon to be infantry

If you look on the pay scales for a reg force NCM member you see an incentive pay category, for private its 1-3 and from corp and up its basic then 1-4. How long would it usually take a private to move up in the incentive category? 
   thanks


----------



## D-n-A

with each year you‘ve been in, you move up in pay

when you join, your a P1 pay, after you‘ve been in a year, your get P2 pay, etc

once you‘ve been a private for 3 years, theres no more pay raises for time-in, the next big pay raise would be when your promoted to Cpl


----------



## soon to be infantry

Thanks alot D-N-A.


----------



## GerryCan

You got me recceguy, and to think that I usually check my posts over


----------



## CDNBlackhawk

The recruiters told me that u would recieve a pay raise after Basic training by going to the next lvl of private for pay.


----------



## D-n-A

when you first join up, your  a Private(Recruit), after your basic training, you become a Private(Trained), theres a bit of a pay increase there


----------



## Armymedic

We‘ll see how this goes, it‘ll be intresting to see what risk rating Haiti gets...and now that CFPSA has wieghed into the mix to give the Gov‘t something more to think about...

I am waiting patiently for the headlines.


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

> Originally posted by D-n-A:
> [qb] when you first join up, your  a Private(Recruit), after your basic training, you become a Private(Trained), theres a bit of a pay increase there [/qb]


What? Unless I‘m mistaken, you become a private (trained) and get your hook after completing your MOC training. Your pay increase comes once you‘ve been in a year.


----------



## kaspacanada

Last I saw, in the reg force you didn‘t get a hook until you‘d had a year after being trained.  The reserves work differently, or at least all the units I worked with and have seen did.


----------



## D-n-A

I‘m going by how it is in the reserve

also, a Private(Trained) doesnt get a hook, a Private(Basic) does though


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

Um, so am I

and wtf is a private(basic)? 
*recalls rank structure pushups*
private recruit....private trained...corporal...
nope, not there


----------



## kaspacanada

When I finished QL3 reserve infantry, I got a hook and a small pay raise.  That was private trained.  My course was combined QL2/3 infantry.  A Private, with just basic training (QL2) doesn‘t get a hook.  I got a raise after my first year.  And again in my second year, and again in my third year as a reservist.  Then I left the reserves for the regular force.

Just a note, they‘ve apparently changed a lot of the qualification names since I did my course.  So who knows what they call basic and trained today.


----------



## kaspacanada

When you are a Private Recruit, doing your first phase of training, you are doing your ‘basic‘.  You are still a Private Recruit.  You then move on to your trade training which for me, was reserve infantry.  When I finished that, I was Private trained and got my hook.


----------



## Armymedic

Well heres the end of this...

We Got It!   

And as spoken above they did it in a big spashy press conference in Gagetown. 

Take note of all those other soldiers and Police Officers who now get this tax relief who are not in Haiti or Bosnia. It is a quite a few others around the world who are not home with their families.


News Release
Government of Canada Extends Tax Break to Military and Police Personnel
NRâ â€œ04.028 - April 14, 2004

OTTAWA â â€œ Today, the Government of Canada confirmed that the tax exemption for Canadian Forces members and police officers announced in Budget 2004 is extended to all deployments except low-risk missions. The Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Paul Martin, made the announcement at Canadian Forces Base Gagetown.

With this measure, approximately 3,000 Canadian Forces members and police officers deployed abroad will benefit from a tax exemption, including Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Haiti. 

â Å“Those who put their life on the line to protect Canadians deserve our support,â ? Minister Pratt said. â Å“The tax break will improve the quality of life of our Canadian Forces members and their families.â ?

Retroactive to January 1 st, 2004, the employment income that Canadian Forces and police personnel earn while deployed to high-risk and current moderate-risk operational missions will be exempt from income tax. The tax break will apply, regardless of the length of the deployment and the rank, up to the highest level of pay earned by a non-commissoned member of the Canadian Forces â â€œ approximately $6,000 per month.

Budget 2004 introduced this measure in recognition of the special contribution that Canadian Forces personnel and police make to international peace and stability while serving their country on international missions. 

The lists of eligible missions can be found in the attached annexes.

- 30 - 

For more information, please contact: 

Darren Gibb 
Director of Communications 
Office of the Minister of National Defence 
(613) 996-3100

Annex 1 â â€œ List of Present Military Missions Eligible for Tax Exemption

Location 
 Mission 
 Number of Personnel
(as of April 08, 2004) 

Afghanistan
 UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan
 1

Afghanistan
 NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)
 1682

Bosnia-Herzegovina
 NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR)
 651

Congo
 UN Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (MONUC)
 7 

Haiti 
 UN Multinational Interim Force 
 511

Iraq
 Iraqi Freedom (exchange personnel)
 2

Kuwait
 Iraqi Freedom (exchange personnel) 
 1

Middle East
 UN Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO)
 8

Middle East
 UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF) 
 193

Middle East (Sinai)
 Multinational Force and Observers (MFO)
 28

Senegal
 Office of the Secretary General for West Africa
 1 

Sierra Leone 
 UN Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL) 
 5

Sierra Leone
 International Military Assistance Training Team (IMATT)
 7



Annex 2 â â€œ List of Present Police Missions Eligible for Tax Exemption

Location 
 Mission 
 Number of Personnel
(as of April 08, 2004) 

Bosnia-Herzegovina
 Office of the High Representative (OHR)
European Union Police Mission (EUPM)
 8 (6 RCMP officers)

Côte d'Ivoire 
 UN Operation in Côte D'Ivoire (UNOCI) 
 2 (2RCMP officers)

East Timor
 UN Mission in Support of East Timor (UNMISET)
 7 (3 RCMP officers)

Guinea
 UN High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR)
 2 (2 RCMP officers) 

Iraq
 Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA)
 1 (RCMP)

Jordan
 Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) 
 20 (11 RCMP officers)

Sierra Leone 
 UN Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL) 

Special Court for Sierra Leone (SCSL)
 13 (8 RCMP officers)


----------



## bossi

"All‘s well that ends well."

And, for future reference, a good reason why it‘s wise not to let our frustration get the better of us ... (not that I‘m an apologist for "the system" - as mentioned previously, the federal Liberal party doctors may well have done this deliberately in order to milk every last drop of news coverage out of this issue in order to deflect attention away from the sponsorship scandal, or to deliberately generate the image of a government with a conscience willing to rethink a hasty decision and magnanimously extend a caring hand to the soldier ... who‘ve they‘ve cynically neglected for years ... and finally, it‘s a rather blatant example of vote-buying)

Now ... if they would only figure out how to make it even MORE fair, so that ATHENA Roto 0 would get the tax break for their entire tour ... just like Roto 1 ... THAT would be nice ... sigh ... guess it‘s time to wake up and smell the coffee, eh?  Oh, well - it‘s the thought that counts - and, the Canadian public is now better educated vis-a-vis realising that their troops have been getting the tax shaft for decades from the federal Liberal party.


----------



## bossi

More on Pandora's box ...

*Medal, tax break sought for Canadian guards*
Top soldier says he'll fight for recognition for soldiers guarding embassies in war zones such as Afghanistan
  
Stephen Thorne , The Canadian Press 
June 28, 2004

KABUL - Soldiers guarding Canadian embassies in high-risk areas should receive benefits comparable to those given peacemakers and warriors, including medals and tax exemptions, says the chief of defence staff.

Soldiers protecting diplomats and embassies in places like Afghanistan and parts of the Middle East are currently not eligible for many of the benefits afforded their front-line brethren, but they should be, said Gen. Ray Henault.

"Certainly they have equal risk," Gen. Henault said in an interview. "Although they are not patrolling the streets like the force here and there are ... things they are not required to do, they are nonetheless in a very volatile environment.

"They are vulnerable to all of the things that many of our (peacemakers) here are vulnerable to, whether it be unexploded ordnance or improvised devices or suicide bombers. The risks are there. We can't discount that."

Military Guard Support Units, as they are called, are made up of regular forces troops seconded to embassies around the world for a year at a time.

Combat and peacemaking tours are only six months, but embassy security is considered a posting, similar to appointments in Germany or the United States, only their families are not posted with them.

Their job is to guard the ambassador, his staff and the embassy itself. And, in Kabul, they are hopelessly undermanned and under-equipped.

"These men have ... faced the business end of rifles on a daily basis," said a source. "They have lived not under the protection of a military camp with hundreds of armed soldiers but in the middle of a very dangerous city."

Criteria for an Afghan service medal are currently being considered by the Governor General, whose office is responsible for military honours. The federal government has not finalized criteria for the tax break, which was announced in the last federal budget.

Gen. Henault acknowledged that the Kabul diplomatic mission is "one of the more difficult" Canada has worldwide. While embassy security staff are not members of the NATO force and are not included in the risk assessment provided peacemaking troops, Gen. Henault said consideration should be given them for at least a medal and a tax break.

"We will have to look at (a medal) because they are operating in a part of the world where, at the very least, they should be recognized for what they've done in a very volatile security environment," he said.

And, he added, "the Military Guard Support Unit in a place like this is really one that we should consider" for a tax break.


----------



## Armymedic

This is turning into a bigger boondoggle then I thought when I first put this on....

When those people screw things up, they sure do it right.


----------



## logau

Hey - no fair! All us strap hangers at NDHQ want some gravy too - for our poutine that is!

Well done to all who wangled some swag. And for those who didn`t, start writing up your case.

For all serving outside of the country - see you home soon and have a few dozen on Canada Day if you are outside the no beer zone!

Best regards 

The Poutine Patrol at Fort Fumble

 :fifty: Fuzzy, Wuzzy and Porky! :soldier:


----------



## rdschultz

This might be better suited in off-topic, I'm not sure.  But it applies to the military, so military related might work?  Either way, moderators, feel free to move it.  

I'm just curious if anybody has encountered something similar, or has any knowledge of the subject matter.  If not, oh well, but it can't hurt to ask.

First off, I already know that while I'm at St. Jean, income tax will be deducted off my pay according to the Quebec income tax tables.  When I go to file, I'll file under the province of which I reside on 31 Dec. 2004.  Now when I leave for St. Jean, I'll be a resident of Saskatchewan.  I'll leave no significant residential ties to Saskatchewan however, so this has me confused.   The CRA seems to define the most significant residential ties (in determining one's province of residence) as: 

(a) dwelling place (or places),  

(b) spouse or common-law partner, and

(c) dependants.

Now, (b) and (c) don't apply to me.  I have no dependants nor any spouse.  I'm curious as to how (a) applies with regards to living at St. Jean. I'm moving out of Saskatchewan, leaving no official dwelling place behind.  But, as of 17 Dec., I'll no longer have a dwelling place in Quebec either (although I will be returning in January), so I'm thinking none of these will apply.  I guess it would help to know the definition of dwelling place, but that is really secondary to what I'm trying to determine.  

There are secondary factors for people outside of Canada, but that won't apply to me.  There are no other factors listed for determining provincial residence, but consider these facts:

I'm leaving Saskatchewan, but all my bank accounts, cell phone bills, any sort of professional membership in any organization, and all the belongings I'm storing are going to be stored in Alberta.  As I said, I'll have no residential ties to Saskatchewan, unless my 'place of enrolment' becomes my official place of residence.  Others have said that us how it works, but those who have told me that didn't have as complex a scenario as I do, and they have a spouse still living in their place of enrolment. 

I don't expect that anyone here has encountered my situation exactly, but any tips would be appreciated. Obviously where I file will be a determining factor in how much money I get back.  Alberta is the ideal situation, Quebec is the worst, and Saskatchewan is somewhere in between.  I'm thinking it might work to my advantage to pay my parents a small token amount of rent (with receipts), or even get my mother to put my name on the apartment lease, just to maintain a something of a dwelling place in Alberta.  This is sort of stretching the rules, so I don't know how that will fly, but I'm going to examine the possibility regardless.  But thats why I'm looking into this now, instead of 5 months from now, because I want to take any steps now to make my situation work.


----------



## rdschultz

Upon re-reading it, I think I may have been better to put it in off-topic.  Hmm.

Also, someone in another thread mentioned that upon enrolment, your provincial health care card is destroyed.  That, and my drivers license (which is up for renewal, and being in Alberta for a couple more weeks, I may as well renew it here) are the only two things giving me any sort Saskatchewan residency.  If the provincial card is destroyed, then I assume I no longer have any affiliation with the Saskatchewan health care setup.


----------



## Inch

I ran into the same thing.  Income taxes are based on your primary residence, so where you're a resident on 31 Dec, it doesn't matter that you've been paying taxes and working in Que. I called CRA a few years ago to see what they had to say, I had spent the 1st 4 months in Ont and the rest of the year in Que.  So come tax time the difference between the tax in Ont and Que, I would have had to pay $500 so I called CRA and this is what they asked, "Where were you on the 31st of Dec? I said Ont. Who's bed did you sleep in? I said mine.  Where does all your mail go? Ont.  Where are your vehicle/credit cards/bank accounts registered? Ont." He said "it sounds to me like you live in Ont".  As long as you can prove that your primary residence is in another province with mail, bank accounts, etc, then they can't say you don't live there. I've filed Ont since I enrolled with my parents address, I just bought a condo in Halifax so I'll be filing NS this year and from now on. Hope this helps.

Cheers


----------



## Zoomie

Hey Hoser, for your situation it is rather simple.  You have been posted to St-Jean but your F&E (all your stuff) has been put in storage (IAW posting instruction).  Since the CF did not move your belongings, where-ever they reside is the province in which you file your taxes.  This situation will always save the newest recruits from ever having to pay Quebec taxes.  It won't be until your first "real" posting that you will have to start paying a different province's income tax rate.  You can count yourself lucky....    8)


----------



## rdschultz

Yeah it does help, thanks guys.  I did some more searching in the CFAO'S, and it had said the same thing.  I'm aware of the Dec. 31 deal, but I was wondering if there was some military rule (or a CRA rule for military pers.) regarding place of enrollment, that would somehow supercede the December 31 rule.  

The thing tha confused me is that my place of enrollment isn't going to be my place of residence.  My parents are moving from SK to AB (my Mom already has, and my Dad is soon to follow), so all my crap is going be moving too.  But that obviously won't be a concern.  The only potential Saskatchewan tie I'll have is my current Saskatchewan health care coverage.

This is all a concern to me because of another situation.  With my $40k signing bonus, $25k of which I'll get this year, I get taxed heavily.  Now, I have about $17k in unclaimed tuition benefits, so I'll be getting a fairly big return this year.  The problem is that it'll much nicer in certain provinces.  My quick, very rough, calculations leave me with a $13k tax refund if I file in Alberta,  $12k in Saskatchewan, and little bit less than that for Quebec (which is probably inaccurate, I never did research exactly how Quebec does their little federal reduction thing).  While $1000 isn't the end of the world, it has me worried enough to look into it.


----------



## steve-o

Just browsing the C.F. Recruiting website and looking at the different mocs and I was unable to find any training whatsoever that wasn't done in the bloody province of Quebec! Is this so? And if so, would the unfortunate trainee be forced to pay the outrageous taxes to that damn government? :rage:


----------



## NiTz

hahah .. I live in Quebec, and all I can say is that you're gonna pay JUST LIKE ME! Lol.. I'd like to leave this province too.. We pay WAY too much. For sure if you buy something in Quebec then you just have to multiply the cost by 1.15025 to get approximately the REAL cost. This includes both federal and provincial taxes, as TVQ taxes the amount that has ALREADY been augmented of 7.5% or so (federal tax)  I don't know about other taxes.. but you'll pay TVQ for one and each thing you buy in Quebec.. hahaha

Just out of curiosity, where are you from and how much do you pay in taxes when you buy something in a shop?

Cheers!


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

Umm....I don't know how much looking around you did, but I for one haven't done any military training in the province of Quebec...

From what I know it's mainly reg force basic that's taught there, in St-Jean, and I think officer second language trg as well, but there's plenty of other courses that are taught all over Canada.

Next time check your info better before posting.


----------



## steve-o

I am very sorry Sgt! Please excuse my last post, how ignorant of me! I should have said full-time reg force training appears to be carried out in Quebec, that was what i was refering too. And about the Quebec taxes, i meant would they come out of my CF paycheck, or would it just be federal deductions? If the training is done is Quebec, I assumed that Revenue Quebec would want their greasy little rat paws on my pay.


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

*bursts our laughing*

you weren't referring to me when you said "Sgt" were you? Dude, I'm just a hooked private, a 'Sig' is short for Signalman, which is a Private (trained). Just clearing that up. 

(man that's still pretty funny...) ;D

No worries though, everyone makes mistakes.  

Oh, and to answer your question, I think only Federal tax is deducted from your actual paycheque, at least that's what it says on my pay stub. I'm not an accountant though, so don't quote me on it.


----------



## TheCheez

I wouldn't worry about it. Going to Quebec for 10 weeks isn't going to change your province of residence for income tax purposes.


----------



## NiTz

I suppose that if you don't live permanently in Quebec you don't have to pay taxes to revenu Québec but i'm not sure. I'll call my uncle tomorrow and ask him he lived in Ottawa for a while and now he's back in Quebec... i'll come back on this    :warstory:



Cheers


----------



## K. Ash

I think for T4 purposes its based on your income from the province your in.


----------



## George Wallace

While at St Jean you will pay Federal and Quebec Taxes.  It will be deducted from your pay, so you won't even see it.  When it comes to Income Tax time, you will pay taxes for where ever you lived on Dec 31 of that year.  If you happened to be in Quebec, at Recruit School, on that date, that is the tax you will pay.  Note: once you go to Recruit School, you no longer live with Mom and Dad, but at CFB St Jean.

When you get posted out of Quebec, to another province, double check that they change your tax deductions in the Pay Office of your unit.  

The Government wants their money.  They will tax you every time.

GW


----------



## Kat Stevens

render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.....

CHIMO,  Kat


----------



## big_johnson1

Well, tax season is here, so my question is this: What military related deductions does everyone use? Any tips to pass on?


----------



## Sundborg

I just picked up my tax forms like 30 min ago from the post office.  I'm looking forward to getting them done and over with.


----------



## jc5778

Anyone know how, if possible, to transfer part of your salary to your spouce for tax purposes?  

I heard you can do that.  Helpful for a guy like me, who's wife makes far less then myself.  Puts you in lower tax bracket. i.e. BIGGER return.


----------



## Scratch_043

I am STILL waiting for my T4 slips from two employers (not in the CF) [yet]

is it usual for a company to take so long to get around to it? I would really like to get that refund, so that I can buy myself some new toys > Yeoman knows what I'm talking about.

Nic


----------



## big_johnson1

Sundborg said:
			
		

> I just picked up my tax forms like 30 min ago from the post office.   I'm looking forward to getting them done and over with.



I've heard the same thing but since I'm not in that boat yet I didn't really pay much attention. My father goes to an accountant every year because he finds that they know more than the average joe working at HR Block. He then claims the cost of the accountant on the next tax year.


----------



## Inch

7 - 10 days said:
			
		

> Anyone know how, if possible, to transfer part of your salary to your spouce for tax purposes?
> 
> I heard you can do that.   Helpful for a guy like me, who's wife makes far less then myself.   Puts you in lower tax bracket. i.e. BIGGER return.



I'm not married but I highly doubt there's anyway to transfer part of your salary over to her. You made that money, not her. What you can do though, is claim her RRSP contributions or at least a portion of them. You'll get more back than she would since you're in the higher tax bracket.


Torn, all T4s (and other tax receipts for that matter) must be in the mail NLT the 28th of Feb. Slips for RRSP contributions made during the first 60 days of year are mailed out as they're ready, but all should be out by the end of Mar. So I'd recommend not filing your taxes until close to the end of Mar just to make sure you get all relevant tax forms. I got my T4s from the CF a week ago but I'm still waiting for the one from Royal Lepage for my posting allowance.


----------



## x-zipperhead

7-10 Days,

I think I know what you are referring to.   If your wife didn't earn any income, or very little income,   you can claim what would have been her base amount that you can earn tax free.   It's called the Equivalent to Spouse claim.   That is, you earn your first $7500 (approx)   tax free. That is your Personal Claim.   If she didn't earn anything you can claim hers as well.     I believe if you are claiming Equivalent to Spouse it's around $6800.   So, instead of earning your first $7500 tax free, you now will not pay any tax on your $7500 plus what she didn't claim - $6800 or so - for a total of 14k -15k tax free.   This combined with the advice from Inch wrt RRSP contributions can make for some considerable tax savings.

I know this isn't exactly what you described - you are not "transferring" any of your income to her.   This is the closest thing I could think of to what you described.   If I missed the mark on what you were asking, sorry.   Maybe this info will help anyway if you weren't already aware of it.   

Your best advice would be to seek professional tax advice through SISIP, HR Block, or a CPA.   You'd be surprised how much they might save you.   Often it is worth the fee.   Sometimes it isn't.

I hate tax time   

Cheers


----------



## jc5778

thx for the info, I heard this in passing from a guy that had attended a SCAN seminar.  Perhaps he was "right out-of-er" I was a little skeptical as well.  Would be a nice idea though ;D  For the record I usually do my own taxes with Quicktax on my own computer.  Easy to use and a lot cheaper then H & R Block.  Lus H & R block are out-to-lunch.  I always get my return in my bank within 10 days with using the at home program.  Any other tips out there??


----------



## Bomber

A caution on the Spousal RRSP, if you figure your wife might eventually out earn you, it will come back to bite you when you go to take the money out of the plan.  A buddy has been claiming his haircuts every 7-10 days all year long for the last five years, his accountant has been doing his taxes for him, and it has never bit him.  He also claims mess dues.  I think these are all things under "cost of business" things we are forced to pay.  Also do something school related, the CF re-imbursed a bunch of the school stuff, and the taxes are lessend because you are a part time student.  Or, just work as a pizza delivery guy or something.  Under the table stuff.


----------



## big_johnson1

Well as an ROTP student I know that I am not allowed to claim either the tuition (since I'm not paying it), or the 400$ a month I get for being a full time student (I'm getting money to go to school so that doesn't count either).. I am lucky though because I was getting MCpl pay for 8 months of the year and then OCdt pay for the rest, so I really overpayed on my taxes.. Unfortunately I don't think there is much I can claim. Kinda sucks but oh well. I didn't realize that I got a tax receipt from Royal Lepage though. How does this affect moving claims? Can I claim moving expenses or not?


----------



## Inch

I don't think you can since moving claims are full reimbursement. The same as per diem when you're on TD, you can't claim meals since you're reimbursed tax free.


----------



## csura2

I just got an e-mail saying that ROTP can now claim their tuition or something like this.  The rules have changed this year, but I'm still not exactly sure how.  I'll be talking to someone about it tomorrow.  But if anyone knows how the new changes work, feel free to spread the word.


----------



## Gunner

For those of you who deployed overseas in 2004, you may wish to defer claiming certain deductions until the 2005 tax year vice the 2004 year.   For example, in 2004 my taxable income was $43000. While I made a large RRSP contribution this year, I only used enough to reduce my taxable income to 36000.   I will carry the rest of the contribution over to 2005 and take advantage of the deduction when my taxable income is much higher.


----------



## Big Foot

EMEGirl, just go to your campus registrars office and request a T2202 and fill it out with the information they give you. Thats how it works here at RMC.


----------



## big_johnson1

EMEgirl said:
			
		

> I just got an e-mail saying that ROTP can now claim their tuition or something like this.   The rules have changed this year, but I'm still not exactly sure how.   I'll be talking to someone about it tomorrow.   But if anyone knows how the new changes work, feel free to spread the word.



Please, if you can confirm this, let us know. Me especially


----------



## Inch

Feral said:
			
		

> Please, if you can confirm this, let us know. Me especially



I highly doubt the Crown will let you claim tuition that they paid for. You may however be able to claim the $400/month for being a full time student.


----------



## big_johnson1

I've been reading up on it recently and you are right Inch, there is no way to claim tuition because it's not coming out of the mbrs pocket. The 400$ a month though is a little more ambiguous.. There isn't anything that I've found that says you can or cannot claim the full-time student deduction, although I know people who have done it. God help them if Revenue Canada ever finds out though.


----------



## Big Foot

> In accordance with Canada Customs and Revenue Agency policy, any full-time, subsidized student (ROTP, UTPNCM) may now submit a T2202 form with his/her income tax return.


That comes from an official email sent out by RMC today. I think that clarifies the situation a bit.


----------



## camochick

Ok, so alot of you have moved between provinces and I was wondering, if i lived part of the year in NB and the other in AB do i still have to do NB provincial tax forms or AB forms. I am so confused. :-\


----------



## mo-litia

camochick said:
			
		

> Ok, so alot of you have moved between provinces and I was wondering, if i lived part of the year in NB and the other in AB do i still have to do NB provincial tax forms or AB forms. I am so confused. :-\



You only file taxes in your province of residence at the end of the year.  I seem to recall an area on the Alberta tax form - 1st page (?) - where you indicate where you lived at the end of the year.  Hope this helps.

To all students out there - HR Block is offering $25 same-day refuunds to all students at a post-secondary school.  I don't think that price can be beaten.


----------



## Gunner

> To all students out there - HR Block is offering $25 same-day refuunds to all students at a post-secondary school.  I don't think that price can be beaten.



This is an option but I would urge you to look into netfile services provided by Quicktax and Taxwiz.  It takes about 10 days to receive your refund from the government but you are not paying H&R Block any money and you also get in the habit of doing your own taxes.  I started doing this years ago and it helps you understand the tax system and your deductions.

Mo-litia - Does H&R Block only charge $25 for your tax return?  Or do they take a percentage of your refund in order to provide the same day refund services?  

Cheers,


----------



## big_johnson1

Big Foot said:
			
		

> That comes from an official email sent out by RMC today. I think that clarifies the situation a bit.



Any chance of forwarding this to me?


----------



## Inch

Big Foot said:
			
		

> That comes from an official email sent out by RMC today. I think that clarifies the situation a bit.



A T2202 is issued by the post secondary institution. RMC does not issue them to my knowledge, or at least they didn't 3 years ago. T2202's are the forms that state how much you paid in tuition and how many months you were a full time or part time student. The full time student status is the only thing you will be able to claim since the crown paid for the tuition, not you. Now, if you were to claim the tuition for a tax deduction, you would have to claim that money as income. Since it's not income and it's simply a reimbursement, you cannot claim the deduction.


----------



## jswift872

Well I have two jobs and Dairy Queen (job number 1) didn't take enough out of me, so I owe a nice amount, and job number 2 (Reserves) put me well over the "tax bracket" so, I guess I won't be getting that surround sound system I wanted quite yet, lol


----------



## Big Foot

Inch, I was issued a T2202 by RMC today and have heard nothing else regarding it. All it gives me is 8 months full-time credit. Don't know how much money that gives me but I have my T2202 signed by the registrar.


----------



## Inch

Big Foot said:
			
		

> Inch, I was issued a T2202 by RMC today and have heard nothing else regarding it. All it gives me is 8 months full-time credit. Don't know how much money that gives me but I have my T2202 signed by the registrar.



Good deal, you can see on the form where they'd put tuition that you can claim, if it's not on your form then you can't claim it. The 8 months full time student credit makes a difference, since you guys don't make all that much, you'll almost get everything back that you paid in taxes. Good to know they let you guys claim that now. Enjoy your refund!  ;D


----------



## big_johnson1

Just to add, I called Revenue Canada this morning and CONFIRMED that as an ROTP student you cannot claim tuition (obviously) but you CAN claim the $400 a month credit for being a full time student. Good news for me anyways.


----------



## Big Foot

Inch, my T2202 has no dollar figure for tuition. It only confirms that I was a full-time student for 8 months last year. Would be sweet if I could claim tuition but $3200 in full-time credits is pretty nice, too.


----------



## Strike

Hey Inch,

Does that mean we can redo our taxes from our ROTP years and claim the full-time student?  Wouldn't that be sweet.


----------



## Inch

Strike said:
			
		

> Hey Inch,
> 
> Does that mean we can redo our taxes from our ROTP years and claim the full-time student?   Wouldn't that be sweet.



That's a we that doesn't include me right? I'm not ROTP   , CCEP for me and I've always claimed full/part time student (as applicable), even when I was waiting to go to MJ and I was doing courses through Continuing Education at RMC. This year will be my smallest return since I enrolled.

I'm not sure if it will carry through, I'm claiming interest on student loans from 1999 & 2000 that I didn't claim before so you may be able to claim full time student for years past.


----------



## big_johnson1

And regarding H&R Block, it's 29.95+ tax for the instand refund for students only. Normally, you pay a certain amount (I think it's 40-50$) and if you want the instand refund they take a percentage of that.


----------



## Torlyn

To all of the ROTP students:

You may want to think about not claiming your student amounts this year, or at least not all of them.  While I was going to school, I wasn't making a whole shwack of cash, so I deferred my education amounts until I finished school and started working full-time.  I've been able to stretch it out, so I've gotten back an average of $1500 a year back for the last 3 years...  Food for thought.  

T


----------



## Hoplite

I'll second Torlyn's good advice.  My education credits got lost in the shuffle at the accountant's office, and I had a couple hurting tax years when I starting to pull down some money!

Oh was I wishing for those credits.  There is nothing like thinking you are getting a return to find out that you owe a grand!   :crybaby:


----------



## mo-litia

Gunner said:
			
		

> This is an option but I would urge you to look into netfile services provided by Quicktax and Taxwiz.   It takes about 10 days to receive your refund from the government but you are not paying H&R Block any money and you also get in the habit of doing your own taxes.   I started doing this years ago and it helps you understand the tax system and your deductions.
> 
> Mo-litia - Does H&R Block only charge $25 for your tax return?   Or do they take a percentage of your refund in order to provide the same day refund services?
> 
> Cheers,



I had to call H & R Block as I wasn't sure; it's actually $29.95 (The sign in their window dosen't detail their hidden fees. :.) and it is same day refund.


----------



## mo-litia

Feral said:
			
		

> And regarding H&R Block, it's 29.95+ tax for the instand refund for students only. Normally, you pay a certain amount (I think it's 40-50$) and if you want the instand refund they take a percentage of that.



 :-[ :-[  Next time I'll finish reading the thread before I post!


----------



## jc5778

Everyone buy quicktax and do your owntaxes.  Very easy, even for a grunt like me.  34.95 includes 6 free NETFILE  for returns over 25,000, unlimited returns for those under 25,000.  Last time I used H & R Block they charged per slip.  This year between the wife and I, we had 10 slips.  Work, schooling, OSAP etc...   I will never pay someone to do mine again ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I've been using Quick Tax and Efile for the last five years or so. Very user friendly and easy. I can do mine, the wife's and daughters returns in about two hours, send them off by EFile and get our rebates in about two to three weeks tops. I'll never depend on or pay someone to do them again. The good thing is you can leave all your previous returns on the hard drive and the new year program can search for bring forward status of the old returns.


----------



## Torlyn

I'll second (third?) the quicktax.  I've used it for 4 years, and I've had to do some funky returns, and it's brilliant.  Netfile, I get my return in usually 5-7 business days, direct deposit to my account.  And being able to import the last years return is awesome, as it finds things that sometimes can be carried forward (RRSP, LLP, HBP, education deduction amts, etc.)

T


----------



## oneill

Hi i am looking for some help.
i am moving over from the UK to Canada.
And I am hopefully joining the Army,
 but one of the things that I'm unsure of is the tax law, 
Is there some one in the admin office that will be able to help, and or give advice on what i should do.???

If any one can help i would be most gratefull

paul


----------



## camochick

You can use quick tax right off the internet and if you are claiming less than like 20k you get it for free. That's how i did my taxes and my check should be here soon.


----------



## Sub_Guy

ufile.ca is the cheapest I can find, I used it last year, and this year.  14.95 for 1st family member, 5.00 for the second family member additional family members free (dependants) returns under 20000 free....


----------



## pi-r-squared

I don't know how tax really works when it comes to crossing provinces, but the D/S on basic said that we'd get a greater income tax return since we were not going to be in Quebec when we filed for a return.  How does filing for the tax work in regards to the province difference?  Does something show up on the tax form, or do we have to do something fancy.


----------



## Gunner

Circle, 

You are to submit your income tax based on your province of residence as of 31 Dec 05 (ie your current posting according to your last posting instruction). I'll need some more detail about you (ie are you attach posted somewhere, on TD, etc).


----------



## Cloud Cover

hoser said:
			
		

> While $1000 isn't the end of the world, it has me worried enough to look into it.



File your return in the lowest taxing province that you are legally entitled to file in. Find out if you can split the incentive pay over two or more tax years.  Max your RRSP's if you can't split the income. By extra life insurance from within your RRSP plan, so you can keep adding to it.


----------



## jumpers_mum

Hi All,

As this is my first post, please excuse any ignorance in procedure and accept my apologies if I'm posting in the wrong area.  

My son was in St. Jean for his BMQ (finished in Feb '06).  I went to visit him in Meaford over the weekend and he gave me his income statements from Basic and asked me to prepare his income tax while he's posted there for SQ.  I've just looked at the paper work and he's given me a Canada Customs and Revenue Agency T4 form as well as a Revenu Quebec Employment Income and Miscellaneous Income form.  I've figured out that he should be using Ontario as his residence (all his mail comes here, his driver's license address is from Ontario, he was here on December 31st), but I'm not sure which income statement I should be using. The amounts differ slightly (by $2.33 defined on the Revenu Quebec slip as "Other benefits" that aren't listed on the CCRA slip).

Any information is greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance,

jumpers_mum aka Karen


----------



## George Wallace

As he resided in Quebec on 31 Dec 2005, he must pay Quebec Taxes.  His permanent residence was in St Jean, Quebec, no matter what you or he may think.  That is how Revenue Canada looks at it.  That is how the Canadian Forces must look at it.


----------



## jumpers_mum

Hello and thank you for your reply.

I've discovered that at least with the web-based Ufile.ca, there are areas to enter the information from both the T4 and the Revenu Quebec RL-1 slip, once his residence on 31-Dec-05 is declared as Quebec.  The main disadvantage I can see at this point is that Netfile is no longer an available option, as this will be his first time filing in Quebec. 

Cheers,
jumpers_mum aka Karen


----------



## geo

George....
hate to dissagree with you.
the lad was on course in St Jean..... he didn't live there - it was not his permanent residence.

The man is a resident of Ontario until such time as he is posted.
declare both Quebec & Fed withholdings against your Fed tax return.


----------



## acclenticularis

Been a long time since I have been on.  Finally a member of the CF again!  In civvy life until a couple of months ago I worked in a public accounting firm and I can say with absolute certainty that one must file in the province of permanent residence as of Dec. 31st of the tax year in question.  You will find all of the rules pertaining to, and explaining as such, in either the Tax Act or on the Canada Revenue Agency's website.  If absolutely unsure, send a query to CRA and they will explain more fully.  However, tax wise, I am certain he would be considered a permanent resident of the province from which he came until he is operationally posted.


----------



## George Wallace

Merged 

Officer Entry Plans (Regular Force)


Response to a previous poster:

I was going to say "Simply look up at the bottom what Letter matches your Plan" but it looks like someone in Recruiting or with access to DAODs will have to answer as these are the current programs/plans listed:

A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)

Once you find out what corresponding Letter your Plan is listed as, just apply it to the OCdt and later the Pilot charts.


----------



## mbhabfan

thanks for the information.  Under the CEOTP I am an officer cadet until my wings or university degree?


----------



## George Wallace

If you have a Message, it will have the Pay Scale that you will be paid, somewhere in the narrative.


----------



## mbhabfan

what "message" are you referring to?


----------



## George Wallace

When you get your paperwork finalized and you are ready to go, you should also have a copy of your Posting Message.  On it, it should state what your Pay Scale will be and the Authority by which it is granted.  That will tell the Pay Clerks at the Base what they need to know to pay you the correct amounts.


----------



## smale436

I find this site very informative and it has given me much good info to help in my career. My question is where do I file taxes next year? Basically, I attended BMQ in Borden from Jan till March, went on TD in Cold Lake until July and I am now attached posted to Kingston until February attending the POET course. I am an AVS Tech and my QL3 is expected to be 18 months after POET ends. It is usually in Borden but they are supposedly running it at a civvy college in Halifax now. I have not changed my address with Revenue Canada or the banks as CFRC suggested to wait until your first posting. So should I file them in Manitoba where I came from or file in Ontario. I do not have a mortgage or lease as I lived with my father. Also can you claim single quarters on your return the way you can claim rent payments for school tax purposes? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much!


----------



## Blackadder1916

Your province or territory of residence is the province or territory *where you lived * or of which you were considered to be a *factual resident * on December 31.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/topics/income-tax/return/completing/personal-info/province/menu-e.html

You usually have to use the tax package for the province or territory where you resided on December 31. If you had residential ties in more than one province or territory, use the package for the province or territory where you had your most important ties.
Residential ties means where your principal residence and personal property are, where your spouse, common-law partner, or dependents reside, and ties that may be relevant include social ties, hospitalization insurance, bank accounts, and driver’s licence.

For military members who may have been employed at several locations during the year this may be somewhat confusing if you do not have spouse or children, are living in single quarters, and all your personal property accompanies you even if you're sent temporarily to another location.   Factors you should take into consideration are;


Your parent unit,  (on TD or even attached posting you still remain on the strength of your parent unit)
If you are considering using your parents home as residence of record, think, do you still live there.
If you use as your residence a province in which you did not receive employment income while being employed for the full year a red flag may be raised at CRA.
A tax credit for rent is usually a provincial tax credit and applicable only if you are resident in that particular province.  Not all provinces have such tax credits.

Some may try to use the province that will give them the largest refund, but the best suggestion is you should never try to fool the taxman.  Once the new income tax filing season starts, CRA will have hotlines available that can answer this question and any other question you may have.


----------



## Cdnronin

Are Canadian troops exempt from Income Tax while in a war zone?  I know that US troops are and the UK are in the process of doing the same...

Quote:

*From the Sun (UK) Troops May Receive Pay Perks (March 6, 2006)*

BRITISH soldiers on active service could be exempt from tax under plans revealed by Tony Blair last night. The PM has ordered a major review of pay and perks for brave troops on missions overseas — in a massive victory for a Sun campaign.

His plans were revealed just hours after Tory leader David Cameron told The Sun he wanted tax breaks for Our Boys abroad. UK Armed Forces are the only ones in Nato who pay income tax during combat.

Now ministers are poised to announce a deal that will cost hundreds of millions of pounds.

Mr Blair’s official spokesman confirmed: “The Prime Minister asked several weeks ago that the whole package of support for the Armed Forces should be looked at. “That review should become available shortly.” 

The perks will include an increase on the current 20 minutes free telephone calls troops get to contact home. And there will be medical and time off packages. A senior Whitehall official said: “This is about one week away from announcement.

“It’s a hugely expensive move but there can be no alternative. It is the right thing to do for our people.”

Mr Blair ordered the review in late August after talks with defence secretary Des Browne. But he failed to announce a breakthrough because military top brass insisted soldiers abroad should all receive the same — whether or not they are in the firing line.

One option is an across-the-board pay hike for all troops. But ministers could also follow America’s lead and take all soldiers on overseas missions out of tax. Tory supremo Mr Cameron got the ball running by promising in yesterday’s Sun he will study the pay conditions for UK soldiers. He said troops fighting abroad are laying their lives on the line for their country — and therefore deserve special treatment. Before the measures come into effect the Armed Forces Pay Review Body must agree the blueprint — and it needs the Cabinet’s blessing.

*From the Guardian Newspaper (UK) October 6, 2006*

Defence minister Derek Twigg yesterday announced a limited welfare support package for wounded British troops, including allowances for families visiting service personnel in hospital, and a £5 daily allowance for soldiers recovering in hospital. The move comes amid increasing criticism of the conditions and medical treatment available to wounded British troops.

Existing separation allowances and at-sea bonuses will also be extended to cover personnel who are in hospital, Mr Twigg said. Other measures include free delivery of Christmas parcels and improved access to broadband internet, television, and library facilities. A special military ward at Selly Oak hospital in Birmingham will be announced later.

The MoD said earlier this week that soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan would be exempt from income tax or given equivalent pay rises as part of a forthcoming armed forces salaries review."


----------



## Armymedic

We Cdns have enjoyed tax free status for qualified msns since 1 Jan 04.

Please search


----------



## tomahawk6

This article refers to British soldiers. I am not completely conversant with UK benefits but my impression is that the government offers few benefits to its soldiers in theater compared to say US troops. I think there is a move in the UK to improve this situation, but frankly the military under a Labor government is like Bob Cratchit working for Ebenezer Scrooge.


----------



## bilton090

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> We Cdns have enjoyed tax free status for qualified msns since 1 Jan 04.
> 
> Please search


              Yes we have been getting it since 1 jan 04, We were getting it in Haiti !


----------



## 1feral1

As for the ADF, we too are in the tax free bubble whilst deployed. Personally, I would have thought the English were doing the same. As for our American allies, they too are getting tax free pay, as we were just speaking to some US soldiers yesterday about it.

Regards,

Wes


----------



## GAP

Question: How does CF pay rates compare with British, American & Australian pay rates for similiar ranks? Are they close?

(the reason I ask this is the CF was looked upon as having the best pay when I was in the USMC...we always wished we were paid the same)


----------



## jollyjacktar

GAP dependant upon how you look at it we do get more money on just pure dollar signs.  But as I understand they Yanks do get different benefits which can negate the dollar difference.  

Please correct me if I am wrong as you served there, but are not the PMQs rent free? There is a lower income tax percentage paid 15% is it not?  They enjoy a GI benefits bill which has good support.  There is a cash bonus for re-enlistment, upwards movement is better and faster too.  I even have heard that there is a program to help getting a mortgage too.  I think it would be hard to make a definitive comparison between the two pay/benefits systems as some items would cancel out the others.  Kinda like Apples and Oranges. 

We do have I am told hands down the best food, fresh or cbt rations.


----------



## GAP

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> GAP dependant upon how you look at it we do get more money on just pure dollar signs.  But as I understand they Yanks do get different benefits which can negate the dollar difference.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong as you served there, but are not the PMQs rent free? There is a lower income tax percentage paid 15% is it not?  They enjoy a GI benefits bill which has good support.  There is a cash bonus for re-enlistment, upwards movement is better and faster too.  I even have heard that there is a program to help getting a mortgage too.  I think it would be hard to make a definitive comparison between the two pay/benefits systems as some items would cancel out the others.  Kinda like Apples and Oranges.
> 
> We do have I am told hands down the best food, fresh or cbt rations.



PMQ's I know little to nothing about, but I do remember there being some rent paid by one of my married buds. No clue how much.

At the time I was releasing they offered a jump in rank to Staff Sgt and $1500.00 bonus (a lot of money at that time). My pay as a Sgt was (tax free in FMF PAC) $200/month plus $60.00 combat pay. This is a long time ago, so the amounts don't really compare with today's rates. 

The GI bill was a real bonus.

Things changed dramatically when the US eliminated the draft. The all volunteer force had to compete with industry and a lot was revamped. 

Yeah, there is a real Apples/Orange problem now that I look at it...thanks anyway.


----------



## tomahawk6

Yep, I remember my starting pay was $288 a month. ;D
There was a $10,000 bonus for soldiers to re-enlist in the mid 70's. Had a soldier in the unit re-enlist got his bonus then disappeared. When the MP's tried tracking him down it seemed that the addresses he put on his application were wrong. After 30 some odd days his uncle a Sgt Major called the 1Sgt to find out what his status was, he had told the family he was on leave. He was told the soldier was AWOL. The kids uncle then contacted the MP's and his nephew was arrested and charged with defrauding the government among other things.


----------



## jollyjacktar

The PMQ info comes to mind from Rosy Roads, Puerto Rico (and of course depends upon my memory being correct).  During my first visit there in the latter 90's I was told by one of the Yanks that they did not pay rent but did have to pay for utilities which was expensive.  (A/C and the like).  This may be because it was considered an overseas posting too.

This spring I was asked by a US sailor how much I was paid, my reply made his eyes pop somewhat so it must be pretty good in comparison.  I am constantly asked by them to equate my trade/rank with their Navy's counterparts.  You may as well try to get Jack Layton to talk sense, that would be easier.  What my trade covers and what I am expected to be able to do/know for my rank in  comparison would turn perhaps Steven Hawkings mind to mush.  I am sure that it is the same for any other trades out there in the CF with their US counterpart.  Bloody hell, they seem to have at least 6 different trades that cover the same ground I do or could possibly expect to at one time or another.  

Tomahawk6, I had a friend who joined the Household Calvary in the early 70's.  There also were a few Yanks there too at the time.  This was also at the height of the IRA bombing campaigns in London.  Not fun stuff all in all.  One of the Yanks was from California, he got homesick and tired of the BS and went on the trot home.  

(At this time the  US/UK governments had a memorandum of understanding that if a citizen of one country was serving in the Armed Forces of the other's and went AWOL, he could be impressed into their Forces to serve the remainder of their contract time.)

Two weeks after getting home there was a knock at the door.  He answered it to find two American MP's asking after him.  He was then taken into the USMC and subsequently was sent to Vietnam.  He apparently was KIA within the month.  My friend said "Stupid Bugger.  He only had about 18 months left on his contract.  Even when the Regt was roto'd through Northen Ireland the ex-Pats were not sent as there was concern that it would look bad if they got the chop while deployed to that situation."

At one time here we moved heaven and earth to find guys who went on the run.  That policy became too much of a bother.  If you scewed off for 6+ mos they just struck you off strength, seized your pension contributions to pay for "lost" kit and called it a day.  (Assuming you did not sign papers for going on a Op)  What the current policy is I don't know as I am not in the "hunting game" anymore.


----------



## tomahawk6

Interesting jolly.
Back to the thread I agree its hard to compare US pay because of the bonus'. A soldier that re-enlists in theater can receive their bonus tax free. Basic pay is tax free in theater. The rest of our pay is in the form of allowances which are tax free no matter where you are stationed. BAH is basic housing allowance. There is subsistance allowance BAS.

BAS Enlisted: $272.26 a month/officer $187.49 a month

BAH for an E-4 Washington Area $ 1614.00 [with family]
Colonel receives $ 2659.00 monthly

Hostile Fire Pay $225 

http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/proposed-2007-military-pay-raise


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thanks Tomahawk6, I'll have to look it up and see what we are missing up here.

Good to see they are getting some allowances tax free.  When they were letting us sell off our accumulated leave it was of course taxed again before we received a cent, unless you went to a RRSP.  I guess paying tax on it the first time when we earned it was not good enough for the Liberals.


----------



## Gunner

> When they were letting us sell off our accumulated leave it was of course taxed again before we received a cent, unless you went to a RRSP.  I guess paying tax on it the first time when we earned it was not good enough for the Liberals.



???  If you cashed out your leave, you were not taxed twice.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I disagree Gunner.  I have discussed this with the pay Sgt on-board, she concurs as well.  

The leave was earned as part of (for sake of argument) my year of service in 1990.  I was then (as I am now) paid a fixed rate of pay and benefits for that year based upon my rank and incentive level and subsequently paid income tax on said salary and benefits.  Unless I am mistaken and in this case I would like to be  (That way I won't feel sore about these taxes anymore), I should have already paid taxes on the leave earned for that year.  Therefore if I am taxed again at a later date for these same said days of leave it would mean I have been taxed twice would it not?  

If I have got it buggered up Gunner, please show me where I have the wrong end of the stick.


----------



## Gunner

As part of your pay and compensation package you are given, amongst other things, a salary and 25 days of leave a year.  Military leave is paid leave and whether you take it or not you are paid and taxed at the same amount.  This is the mistaken comment of having already paid tax on your accumulated leave, you paid tax on the income you earned during the period.  

First Scenario.

If you didn't buy your leave out, you would have expended your leave sometime during your military career.  In the example you provided, you didn't expend all of your leave in 1990, but let's say in 1991, you decided to expend all of your annual and the five days you accumulated from 1990.  So in 1991, you took 30 days of leave.  You still get paid the same salary and pay the same tax.  

Second Scenario

If the military comes out with a "buy out of accumulated leave package", they are purchasing each day of leave for a day's pay.  This is additional income as the CF is buying something off of you that you have accumulated - "paid leave days".  As it is deemed additional income, you are taxed on it.  If you did this in 1991, your income for the year would be higher than in 1990, hence additional tax owed.  

Third Scenario

You keep your accumulated leave all through your service career and decide to retire in 2006. You use your accumulated leave to enable you to take an extended vacation prior to collecting you pension.  Over your past 25 years, you accumulate 25 days of annual leave.  This final 5 weeks of leave count as income and you are taxed on the income. 

Hence, no double taxation.  

The buy out was very popular for a short term cash infusion or topping up your RRSP portfolio.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thank you for the reply Gunner.  I guess I am as thick as BC pine as there is a little smoke coming out of my ears at the moment mulling this over.  I see what you are saying, what has me smoking somewhat is that our pay folks agreed with me on my thoughts during past conversations on this subject.  

Like any good upstanding Canadian, I hate to think the Gov't is taxing me more than they should ( or at all, quite honestly, gr).  Cheers.


----------



## Gunner

You and me both!  

Cheers!


----------



## a78jumper

As mentioned prior the tax exempt status in specified zones started 1 Jan 04, and also applied to those CFPSA employees deployed in those areas as well, but not to civilian contractors living in the same conditions; there was quite a bit of discontent at the time amongst SNC Lavalin employees at the time as we continued to pay the full amount of tax, but on the other hand we were non combatants. DND "forgot"
there were 300 employees in Camp Julien doing the work the military no longer could do after the gutting of the support trades in the mid 90s.


----------



## 284_226

Any DND pers seen their 2006 T4 slip yet?

The wife is waiting on mine...again...


----------



## Inch

They don't have to be mailed out until the end of this month.

I haven't seen mine yet.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

284_226 said:
			
		

> Any DND pers seen their 2006 T4 slip yet?
> 
> The wife is waiting on mine...again...



Yeah, I already got mine on Friday.


----------



## armyvern

And we just finished confirming/verifying the mailing address' for ours here. They'll go in the mail this week.


----------



## orange.paint

I got mine in Gagetown.


----------



## 284_226

That's good to hear...thanks.  One of us is getting money back, and it's not me


----------



## the 48th regulator

Quick question, for the RFRG, I will be getting a T4 correct?  Or does that fall under a different tax slip?

dileas

tess


----------



## geo

RFRG?
Not sure if it comes on the same T4 as everything else... though it should not matter.
If the RFRG was rolled into an RRSP, then there is no tax liability... it it wasn't, there is.


PS - T4s in Montreal got delivered on Thursday.


----------



## the 48th regulator

geo said:
			
		

> RFRG?
> Not sure if it comes on the same T4 as everything else... though it should not matter.
> If the RFRG was rolled into an RRSP, then there is no tax liability... it it wasn't, there is.
> 
> 
> PS - T4s in Montreal got delivered on Thursday.



Non RRSP tax sheltered.

dileas

tess


----------



## geo

Heh
Ouch .... hope they held back enough.

I've maxed out the potential return of the RFRG
only haggling lefft to be done is to determine what pay level I'll have at retirement.


----------



## PO2FinClk

IF you were posted inter-province this summer, it is likely your T4's will arrive just slightly after (few days at the most) then those who did not. This is due the requirement to produce more then one T4/R1 and their respective reconciliations.

If you do not receive it, a replacement T4/R1 must be ordered through your OR/Pay Office. I do not remember the date off-hand, but your OR/Pay Office, will be able to tell you the earliest a replacement T4/R1 can be ordered. If I remember well, I think it is around 14 March, but you need to ask them to be absolutely certain.


----------



## TN2IC

Got mine in Halifax last Thursday.


----------



## dapaterson

If you are a Reservist who served on class C serice overseas last year, you should receive two T4s: One from your pay in RPSR, the other for your pay in CCPS.  If you are unsure, ask your local fin staff for clarification.  Revenue Canada will discover if you overlook one slip, and it could get expensive for you...


----------



## 241

Got mine Monday, first time since I moved out of mom and dads 4 or 5 years ago that they got the address right, and I told them every year that they had the wrong address, but they still sent it to there place.  Now that I think of it the one year they didn't send it to my parents, my current address, or any of my former ones......   ???


----------



## proudnurse

For me, it's the same this year as it was last year. My one employer always has them to us at a good time, and then for my part time job.......I'm always waiting alot longer. Hopefully my other one will come soon so I can get my taxes over and done with. 

Rebecca


----------



## geo

In the laws, T4s must be distributed to the employees before March 1st.
If they are in your hot little hands 15 days ahead of time, you are doing good.
(and considering you have your Dec 31st pay stub with all your cumulative earnings, you could have gotten started on your tax return prior to that)


----------



## Inch

geo said:
			
		

> In the laws, T4s must be distributed to the employees before March 1st.
> If they are in your hot little hands 15 days ahead of time, you are doing good.
> (and considering you have your Dec 31st pay stub with all your cumulative earnings, you could have gotten started on your tax return prior to that)



Except you don't have your pension adjustment on your End Dec pay statement as well as a few misc boxes like box 40 that I always seem to have on mine.


----------



## GAP

In actual fact, CCRA will do nothing about your not having received your T4's prior to the end of March. They tell you to wait.

You can however go down to CCRA office and have them do a search and print out and certify any T4's that have been submitted in your name. (after March 15)


----------



## muffin

Got mine this morning in Kingston (as DND) but still waiting on hubby's (CF).


----------



## Springroll

Still waiting on mine and the husbands. Both getting mailed to Halifax.

I think this is the first time that I am actually looking forward to filing my taxes.


----------



## geo

Springroll said:
			
		

> I think this is the first time that I am actually looking forward to filing my taxes.



You're sick!


----------



## 211RadOp

One of the guys just recieved his at work here in Kingston.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I work for Transport Canada and we haven't seen our yet either.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Mine arrived last week *gasp* to the address I asked the OR to mail it to, and HLs had her's arrive in the mail here in St-Jean just yesterday.

 8)


----------



## PMedMoe

211RadOp said:
			
		

> One of the guys just recieved his at work here in Kingston.


Oh good, maybe I'll get mine before I leave for course on March 4th.


----------



## 284_226

Still haven't seen mine at Shearwater yet, nor has anyone else I've talked to.

It figures.  My wife already calculated her return, and I used the mid Dec pay statement to fill in what I could on mine.  Looks like we're getting just over $2000 back....

All of it being spent on a new nursery.... :'(


----------



## exgunnertdo

OK - got my T4s for my wages, sent to me at work, not home.  Wasn't there a big emphasis on checking EMAA and making sure your home address was right so that your T4 got to you?  Anyway...

I received my RFRG in Jan of 06, but no T4 for that, yet.  Did not roll it over, just took the cash.  Are T4s for RFRG out?


----------



## Franko

Still no T4 here....wonder what the holdup is this year?

Regards


----------



## SupersonicMax

Didn't get he DND one nor the IRP one... 

Max


----------



## 284_226

_Finally_ got mine today - postmarked yesterday.

Nothing like sending 'em out at the last minute.


----------



## PO2FinClk

Still waiting on mine as well, but am not worried as these things are always worked out by mid March.


----------



## geo

Per CRA rules, employers MUST have the T4s out by no later than Feb 28th and file their own employer's return to CRA.... and that includes DND.

While Reg pay is administered by HR Mil, Res pay is managed by the areas. 
Sooo - Reg T4s should have been sent out long time ago while the Res ones will often take until the last minute - taking into account the shortage of qualified, competent staff officers to do the job... not an acceptable excuse but, there you have it.

Each area is responsible for reconciling the payroll - This year, LFQA got it out in record time - next year, with TF 3/07 being away, it'l prolly be another story.

Sigh!


----------



## PO2FinClk

And before any Reg F decide to go and ask for a reprint from their BOR/Pay Office, be advised that no re-prints will be entertained prior to 12 Mar 07. 

Reason is that although issued on the 28 th for example, reasonable mail delay must be entertained.

Laslty, your BOR's/Pay Offices will also have a listing of a people belonging to them also showing where the T4/R1 was mailed to.


----------



## Franko

Good info PO2FinClk....

Hopefully the bloody thing will arrive soon so I can get it over and done with.

Regards


----------



## Franko

Here's another question for you PO2FinClk....

I'm starting a course and going to be away by that time and won't be returning until 1 Apr.

In that time I won't be able to file at all, unless my T4 arrives prior to 12 March.

How can I go about getting my T4 if it doesn't arrive prior to my departing?

Last thing I want to do is make the tax man wait.        

Regards


----------



## niner domestic

RBD, In a pinch, CRA will have on file a copy of all submitted employer (and other sources of income info) tax information and you can call them and get the numbers over the phone.  They will send out a copy as well of what they have.  That way you can at least calculate your tax liability and have it all ready to submit by April 30th.  

For anyone else who are in a ResF  and have been on a Class A and B contract or anyone who has multiple sources of income it is a good idea to check with CRA for the numbers they have on file for your tax liability as quite often there are missed income statements etc.  CRA will always go on the tax information that has been filed by the employer/and other sources of income and not just on what you received in the mail.


----------



## MJP

niner domestic said:
			
		

> RBD, In a pinch, CRA will have on file a copy of all submitted employer (



For some reason they don't have copies of your DND T4s.  I tried to go that route to file my 2005 taxes after returning from overseas and the CRA had no record of a T4 from DND.  I had to order a reprint from my pay office.


----------



## geo

Personal income tax returns are due by April 30th, as is any amount owing.  Penalties and interest may be charged for late returns or late payments

Also... Given that filing deadline is Feb 28th, the paper copies of the T4s that are sent to CRA will not be readily available for some time.....


----------



## Springroll

Both DH and myself have now received ours as of yesterday. 

Should be a great return for us...hehehe


----------



## R@chel

I'm kind of in a jam here.  Hubby deployed earlier this month and I haven't received his T4 yet.  I know he doesn't have to file until he gets back, but I need his numbers to file mine.  That all said, I don't even has his December pay stub... computer melt down.

Should I just contact the pay clerk?  Do you think they can issue it to me?  I have power of Attourney.

Such a pain.


----------



## Franko

Wait the time as noted above and then go in.

My 0.02 worth

Regards


----------



## PO2FinClk

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Here's another question for you PO2FinClk....
> 
> I'm starting a course and going to be away by that time and won't be returning until 1 Apr.
> 
> In that time I won't be able to file at all, unless my T4 arrives prior to 12 March.
> 
> How can I go about getting my T4 if it doesn't arrive prior to my departing?
> 
> Last thing I want to do is make the tax man wait.
> 
> Regards



Easy one to answer, as per every year in the first week of March, a CANFORGEN (038/06 for last year) will be issued for personnel is situations similar to yours and of R@chel.

Essentially all that will be required is to include a letter issued through Admin Section for a tax filing extension. This letter is in accordance with the provisions of Fairness Legislation allowing you to file your taxes as far as 31 Oct of the year without penalty. Keeping in mind this filing extension is typically aimed at deployed personnel, your school will be in a position to obtain whatever necessary substantiaion required.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Got mine this week, wife is excited  :

Mind you it helps to get it early so we were able to buy more RRSP to knock me down a tax bracket, so we are getting back $2800  ;D


----------



## simysmom99

I don't have dh's yet either.  But we don't get paystubs either they are at the unit.  Perhaps T4 there as well?


----------



## geo

simysmom99 said:
			
		

> I don't have dh's yet either.  But we don't get paystubs either they are at the unit.  Perhaps T4 there as well?


perhaps call?


----------



## Springroll

When I had that issue, I called up CRA and told them of the circumstances. They do have copies of gov't T4's so they gave me the numbers I needed and allowed me to also file my husband's without his signature. He was on deployment rescuing the HMCS Chicoutimi then and there was no timeline as to when they would be back. I also have a POA, so that helped tremendously.

Give CRA a call if the T4 doesn't arrive by the due date. They are more cooperative then many think.


----------



## MJP

simysmom99 said:
			
		

> I don't have dh's yet either.  But we don't get paystubs either they are at the unit.  Perhaps T4 there as well?



Pay statements have been electronic for months now, no more paper copies.  Your husband's T4 will go to whatever address his BOR has listed for him.


----------



## PO2FinClk

MJP said:
			
		

> Your husband's T4 will go to whatever address his BOR has listed for him.


More accurately, whatever address he has listed in CCPS. 

Also to be noted is that even though you get your Pay Statement electronically, those are 2 different settings within CCPS. So it will depend where he has his T4/R1 delivery set at, either "Home" or "Work", and if Home the last address provided to them for that purpose..


----------



## R@chel

MJP said:
			
		

> Pay statements have been electronic for months now, no more paper copies.  Your husband's T4 will go to whatever address his BOR has listed for him.



I had a major computer meltdown after xmas and I admit I'm not great at printing them out, so they were all wiped clean.  Pretty much just your classic case of everything going wrong at once.  It happens.   Grin and bear it!

I did contact his pay clerk here who in turn contacted the clerk that deployed with them.  He has to sign a form the next time he rolls in to change the email account.  They are currently being sent to our old email address.  I guess with all the deployment stuff it never even crossed his mind to change it.  I'm sure I wouldn't have been thinking of it.  Again, just one of those things.  So he will change it eventually and that is good news.  Not much help now, but further down the road it will be nice to see what's up.  

By the way, thanks for all the advice.  I really appreciate the direction.


----------



## JR84

People in Cold Lake should be getting there T4 soon if they already don't have them. I got mine in the mail today.


----------



## armyvern

Husband got his NB T4 three weeks ago and my NB T4.

My PEI T4 just showed up this week. Guess I'll be doing up both our taxes next week while I'm here in Gagetown on leave. The joy!!


----------



## tweetya

My hubby is Reg Force and still hasn't got his T4! But then we live in Borden where they treat students like children and don't give a damn about the member. We're even having trouble with our move outta here!! Go figure! And then they wonder why so many releases!! :


----------



## PO2FinClk

Then the Pay Office/BOR should be contacted to this effect. They have a listing generated from RMDS which will show where all your T4/R1's have been mailed to, which can in turn enable you to track them down. And IF needed, they now have ( as we are passed 12 Mar) the ability to request reprints.

It is more then likely that the mailing address was not updated in CCPS last time you moved, thus why every year a reminder is sent to advising folks who have moved to ensure their mailing address has been properly changed. Note that this notice is normally sent through RO's/Broadcast Emails by the Pay Office/BOR's.


----------



## tweetya

Thanks All! But reply to the Fin clk's comment, if the clerks here knew what they were doing it would be easy as pie!! Students here must go through proper procedures and channels to get anything done here in Borden or your in trouble. He only has ADMIN on Monday afternoons. And what they tell him is fact, they are never wrong. They told him it was mailed to our address in BORDEN but hasn't come yet.

It may be 12 Mar but to them he has lots of time! He just gets told it's in the mail. I have friends keeping an eye out for it in our last posting. They are my support system, because of the hell we put up with here!


----------



## GAP

Just go down to a CCRA office with proper ID and they will print off all copies they have of T4 slips for you and stamp & sign them certified.


----------



## PO2FinClk

If that is the service he is receiving, then he should report it through the instructors to have it addressed. The behaviour you describe is not only poor customer service, but would also hinder quality of life aspects of students.


----------



## Inch

tweetya said:
			
		

> Thanks All! But reply to the Fin clk's comment, if the clerks here knew what they were doing it would be easy as pie!! Students here must go through proper procedures and channels to get anything done here in Borden or your in trouble. He only has ADMIN on Monday afternoons. And what they tell him is fact, they are never wrong. They told him it was mailed to our address in BORDEN but hasn't come yet.
> 
> It may be 12 Mar but to them he has lots of time! He just gets told it's in the mail. I have friends keeping an eye out for it in our last posting. They are my support system, because of the hell we put up with here!



I would suggest you let your husband deal with this, and get some help from his instructors. Most new members of the CF don't have an intimate knowledge with how things work, thus any comments coming from a new member's spouse are even less informed since you have zero experience with how the system works and you're only receiving second hand info from your husband.

So my advice is to cease the complaining and badmouthing of people you've never even met and tell your husband to talk to his instructors, and of course, watch his tone with them too. Military members are people and I know that I start to tune out when someone starts laying into me about things that are out of my control, especially when the person laying into me doesn't know WTF they're talking about.


----------



## geo

+1 Inch

-1 Tweetya


----------



## PO2FinClk

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> Easy one to answer, as per every year in the first week of March, a CANFORGEN (038/06 for last year) will be issued for personnel is situations similar to yours and of R@chel.
> 
> Essentially all that will be required is to include a letter issued through Admin Section for a tax filing extension. This letter is in accordance with the provisions of Fairness Legislation allowing you to file your taxes as far as 31 Oct of the year without penalty. Keeping in mind this filing extension is typically aimed at deployed personnel, your school will be in a position to obtain whatever necessary substantiaion required.


CANFORGEN 064/07 realeased to this effect 26 Mar 07. A little later then usual but its' out so if you require an extansion due to deployment circumstances you can now get it from your respective OR's.


----------



## Kiwi99

Spec pay has always been a touchy area.  Who gets it and why?  And noone really can give a good answer.  Too many times it is used more as a retention mechanism for trades rather that an acknowledgement of their skills.  But with the ongoing war onterror, there has been highlighted a new bunch of soldiers who have traditionally been considered a not-so-bright kind of crew.  That is the combat arms.  When one looks at the task of an infantry MCpl or higher, they routinely conduct their missions while routinley doing other peoples jobs.  And I don't mean doing them because the others can't, more so due to the manning and capabilities of some organisations prevents them from doing it en masse in the field. Some of these are as follows;

Int Op - gathering int while on patrol, especially those with a tactical questioning course;
MSE Op - Cbt arms are always planning and conductiong road moves (combat patrols). selecting the route, organizing the support etc;
Public Affairs - spreading the good of the CF to foreign people and within Canada;
Armoured operations - Inf, Arty and Eng all conduct Armd Ops with their own armd veh;
FCS/Wpns tech - more often than not, these trades are not on a three week op with a rifle company, and the soldiers have to make their guns work however they can;
Medics - more than 50% of casulties are treated by their buddies prior to a medic getting to them;
Signals - everyone is expected to make their radios and other sigs kit work, often without a signaller to assist;
MP - Cbt arms are always the first to take prisoners and on nearly every occasion been responsible for the POW movement back to a secure point; and
Geo tech - cbt arms on patrol are responsible for confirming maps, noting descripencies and forwarding them higher.

The list could go on.  But also take a look at the other things the cbt arms deals with.  High tech wpns, kit and  vehicles.  The advanced courses that are definitley a specialty.  Such as the FAC course, advanced gunnery, advanced anti-armour.  And above all, it takes a specialist person to lead men into combat and have the ability to make on the spot decisons under the most challenging of circumstances.
There will no doubt be many who think that this would be a bad idea, and many who think it would be a good idea.  In retrospect, the normal everyday challenges for a cbt arms soldier (inf, arty, armd and eng) are well above and beyond those given to a soldier 30-50 years ago.  Rather than giving spec pay as a retention tool, it should be given to those whose jobs require special skillsets and unique conditions in which they must be performed.


----------



## Greymatters

This was seriously looked at in about 1997-1998, and the word sent back to our occupation was "it would cost too much".  

On a personal interest note, you would have to amplify what you mean by the reference to acting as Int Op in the field.  There's more to being an Int Op than just marking maps and asking somebody a few questions, which is everybody's job.


----------



## Kiwi99

Agreed that it is everybodies duty to ask questions.  More in relation to a specific person, item, event for future planning at higher levels.


----------



## ark

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/cfpn/Engraph/7_06/7_06_dgcb_spec-pay_e.asp

Hope this helps.


----------



## Greymatters

Part of the problem was that it only works if all or most members of an occupation are doing work that could qualify for spec pay bonuses.  If only a small portion of the trade members are doing the extra work that would qualify for spec pay, its not considered valid.


----------



## Kiwi99

Very much like the problems that could be associated with the implementation of all the time field pay for line units.   And looking at the CFTEP, cbt arms qualifies in all those areas.  Saying that it would cost too much is avery political answer.  Much like how all the big Garrisons don't qualify for PLD as it would cost too much, despite the fact that the big garrsions are in the most expensive parts of the country.  There is nothing wrong with issuing it out to those in the cbt arms with advanced course or other spec courses such as FAC.  It also prompts soldiers to strive for those courses.  That would rule out the possibility of the malingerers benefitting off the work of others.  It is also a recognition that the cbt arms are now required to be the smart and resourceful soldiers that popular opinionleans away from.  Placing a 25 year old in charge of a 3.5 million dollar vehicle reasons that he is not a thud.  There have been many posts in the past about the difference these days between the cbt arms and CSS trades.  it is  not my intent to revisit those, as it just leads to a game of one upmanship.  But defintley, as a soldier gets an advanced course, then spec pay may be warranted.


----------



## Rowshambow

not sure if they still do it, but I like how the Aussies do/did it, you were paid for the job you do (Armd made more than Inf, Eng more than Armd etc) and I think you also got paid more dependent on trade quals. (Cpl with 2 PCF's got more than Cpl with 1, even if they have the exact amount of TI).


----------



## 831_624_647_291er

While I can agree whole heartedly that Infantry trg and for that matter all combat arms trg has become far more technical and requires a greater degree of aptitude to apply, have you considered the fact that all other trades have had an exponential growth in their IS and weapon system requirements.  As you can see I have had a few trades worth of experience and will admit some of the most intelligent and insightful people I worked with have been from the Cbt Arms, but the Spec Pay question should be considered for all trades or a better system created completely for the adequate compensation of those with specialized trg.  I don't believe the current system reflects the competency of our troops as a whole and needs to be revisited.


----------



## Armymedic

Why does cbt arms not get spec pay?
Because you do not deserve SPECIALIST pay.

BTW, medics do not get spec pay as my MOC is not "more technically difficult then that of 031 Infantry" and in my job, I am expected to learn and to be competent in yours, and an expert in mine just the same as you mention in your post.
But to earn Spec pay, I need to become a Physicians Assistant. That is a 2 year course, and the most academically challenging one in the CF. 

What make you think any "0" trade deserves SPECIALIST pay? 
Because they hold relevent civilian post secondary qualifications....no.
Because their trade is extremely technical.......................no.
Because their trade is in high demand in the civilian world and pay is much much higher outside the military....no.

There is nothing wrong with the amount of pay we get for what we do.


Sorry, not biting.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Much like how all the big Garrisons don't qualify for PLD as it would cost too much, despite the fact that the big garrsions are in the most expensive parts of the country.



I know that you now that ain't the reason...


----------



## mover1

I am not buying this argument either. 

BTW I don't get specialist pay either and I work with airplanes all day!


----------



## PO2FinClk

Every single member of the CF is expected to administer First Aid until the arrival of Medics, to operate vehicles when required to do so by occupational requirements, to use communication devices, to adhere to Intl Conventions pertaining to the treatment of prisoners and/or identify and forward discrepancies in equipment or supplies. In it's most basic interpretation of the initial argument, all the points can be attributed to the CFARV.

The only difference is that some occupations use them more in depth dependant on Op necessity. Furthermore every CF occupation has had to adapt to advent of information technologies. Often having to reinvent how "business" was conducted causing a requirement for individuals to learn to operate a wide variety of software and equipment which did not previously exist. If this were basis for granting Spec Pay every occupation would have Spec Pay granted to them. The granting of Spec Pay cannot legally be decided on any fiscal premise and would speculate that whomever made that statement was ill educated in the process.

All of which are not grounds for the application of Spec Pay guidelines. And before any sort of application can be contemplated the Occupation Specification’s would require to be re-written by DGRMC. As far as linking Spec Pay to PLD, the old adage of Apples & Oranges if far too tame to even illustrate the connection between the two. I would rather suggest reading this thread as to the issues relating to PLD:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/57673.0.html

I however would support the mention that a complete review of the Salary Compensation methodology as I personally believe that it is outdated and not reflective of the current times. The idea of a more flexible system, which would allow individuals to be compensated for the work they perform, and would allow for a broader fairness framework. It would also likely stimulate those enjoying the ride to contribute more to ensure they received the salary they desired.


----------



## Teflon

;D - Laughing at St. Micheals Medical Team  

Why, because I find him funny


----------



## seamus

This entertainment almost makes me want to cancel my cable. ;D


----------



## Greymatters

Personally, we can all argue that every CF member deserves some sort of 'spec pay' whenever they advance their professional skills outside their occupation, but until the Treasury Board starts to agree it aint gonna happen.


----------



## Nemo888

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> Why does cbt arms not get spec pay?
> Because you do not deserve SPECIALIST pay.
> 
> BTW, medics do not get spec pay as my MOC is not "more technically difficult then that of 031 Infantry" and in my job, I am expected to learn and to be competent in yours, and an expert in mine just the same as you mention in your post.
> But to earn Spec pay, I need to become a Physicians Assistant. That is a 2 year course, and the most academically challenging one in the CF.
> 
> What make you think any "0" trade deserves SPECIALIST pay?
> Because they hold relevent civilian post secondary qualifications....no.
> Because their trade is extremely technical.......................no.
> Because their trade is in high demand in the civilian world and pay is much much higher outside the military....no.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with the amount of pay we get for what we do.



I think infanteers really do deserve spec pay. As a medic have you ever noticed what MOC most of your patients come from?

Enough said.


----------



## CDNBlackhawk

If not Spec Pay, then we should at least get full time Field Pay,   JMO


----------



## Pte_Martin

We are going to get  Full time Field pay


----------



## aesop081

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> What make you think *any "0" trade * deserves SPECIALIST pay?



Might want to re-think that part....

081 AES Op........spec 1
091 Flt Eng......spec 2


----------



## aesop081

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> As a medic have you ever noticed what MOC most of your patients come from?
> 
> Enough said.



And that has to do with "spec pay" how ?

I'm pretty sure i can name alot of bases where medics never see an infanteer


----------



## EW

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I think infanteers really do deserve spec pay. As a medic have you ever noticed what MOC most of your patients come from?
> 
> Enough said.



Still has nothing to do with the criteria for spec pay.  It has everything to do with hazard pay though.  Perhaps that should be the argument.

Regards.


----------



## Reccesoldier

> sol·dier [sohl-jer]: Informal. to loaf while pretending to work; malinger: He was soldiering on the job.



That's why we'll never get spec pay  8)

Seriously though what the hell for?  Yes its a tough dirty thankless job but it certainly isn't rocket science.  You ever wonder why the Cbt Arms teaches things the way they do... It's so that when everything goes pear shaped they'll still be able to take some Jack off the street and teach them to do it in less than 6 weeks.

Are we all mouth breathing cave men who have a hard time adding 2+2 and getting 4 twice in a row? No... but we could be.


----------



## Navy_Blue

All the luck in the world to you guys.  If you get spec pay my spec 2 wont be far behind.  Then the SAR Techs, JTF and Cert3 Stokers will need to invent Spec 3  :warstory:  Kind of a vicious circle don't you think??

If the infantry gets spec pay then Stewards and Bos'n will be right there in line too.

Your operational tempo has shot through the roof.  I would be pretty happy getting the tax break and the foreign service pay.

Oh and please tell me your not going to get field pay full time on Canadian soil???  I can Justify my Sea pay while on ship full time.  Some one rationalize field pay full time for me.


----------



## Reccesoldier

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> Oh and please tell me your not going to get field pay full time on Canadian soil???  I can Justify my Sea pay while on ship full time.  Some one rationalize field pay full time for me.



You work on the ship all day we work and train in the field and on our vehicles not just when we are on ex but a lot of other times too.  Explain to me how it is any harder for you to be posted to a ship (3 hot's and a cot as you navy types like to point out) and doing duties on board than it is to be a soldier on an army base and doing duties at the base and unit?

If you *deserve *sea pay during refit then we *deserve* field pay any old time too.


----------



## PO2FinClk

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> Oh and please tell me your not going to get field pay full time on Canadian soil???  I can Justify my Sea pay while on ship full time.  Some one rationalize field pay full time for me.


It was announced as part of the Budget 2007 just recently, and this topic touches on the issue: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58971.0.html

Why not? Shipborne gets SDA, Aircrew get AIRCRA, the rationale for full time FOA is just as applicable. Following your reasoning, you receive SDA while on ship even when alongside, then wouldn't field units be entitled to the same type of remuneration while not on exercise? Or while aircrew are not flying every single day? With SDA & AIRCRA you receive increases based on time spent in those environments as where field units got the same crappy $18.46 (before tax) even after spending 18+ years in a field unit. Full time FOA is long overdue in the spirit of fair compensation.

This quote from the link above is an extract from the Budget 2007 which should alleviate the argument or additonal compensation for field personnel:


			
				Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Canadian Forces members who are exposed to hazards and difficult conditions in their daily work are provided with “environmental allowances,” which are in addition to their salaries. Budget 2007 provides $60 million per year to enhance the Field Operations Allowance given to soldiers serving in Army field units to ensure their environmental allowances are in line with those provided to members of the Navy and Air Force. This means that soldiers in Army field units will receive an allowance of at least $285 per month served
> 
> Taken from page 254 of the budget (Chapter 6)



Edited for content.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Sea pay is a joke, if you are not able to be working on a ship then you should lose it (courses, sick, lame and lazy).  There is no way some dude on a 5's on the opposite coast should be getting sea pay.

There is NO WAY you can justify sea pay while you are sitting alongside cleaning shi||ers....

I know I have been there.


Army guys deserve full time field pay and its about time


----------



## TheHead

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> All the luck in the world to you guys.  If you get spec pay my spec 2 wont be far behind.  Then the SAR Techs, JTF and Cert3 Stokers will need to invent Spec 3  :warstory:  Kind of a vicious circle don't you think??
> 
> If the infantry gets spec pay then Stewards and Bos'n will be right there in line too.
> 
> Your operational tempo has shot through the roof.  I would be pretty happy getting the tax break and the foreign service pay.
> 
> Oh and please tell me your not going to get field pay full time on Canadian soil???  I can Justify my Sea pay while on ship full time.  Some one rationalize field pay full time for me.




Oh and please tell me you don't get sea pay when you're in Canadian waters.  Some one rationalize Sea Pay full time for me  :

I think this is a great idea.   When we asked a General out in Fob Robinson if we were going to get a higher hardship allowance than the people who stayed on KAF we were basically laughed at.   This will make up for it.


----------



## TheHead

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Sea pay is a joke, if you are not able to be working on a ship then you should lose it (courses, sick, lame and lazy).  There is no way some dude on a 5's on the opposite coast should be getting sea pay.
> 
> There is NO WAY you can justify sea pay while you are sitting alongside cleaning shi||ers....
> 
> I know I have been there.
> 
> 
> Army guys deserve full time field pay and its about time




Dolphin I laughed when I saw this in your profile +1

Notes: 	Nothing worse than navy personnel who act like Rambo


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

When is it foreseen that this (fulltime FOA or whatever it will be called) will be implemented?


----------



## Sub_Guy

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> If the infantry gets spec pay then Stewards and Bos'n will be right there in line too.
> Your operational tempo has shot through the roof.  I would be pretty happy getting the tax break and the foreign service pay.



Infantry gets spec pay and the Stewards and Bos'ns line up?  Are you comparing and Infanteer to someone who folds sheets?  Or serves Ungratful navy officers?  Or clips his nails on the bridge?

Sure the infanteer tempo has shot through the roof, but there were always missions going on around the world, now its a hell of a lot more dangerous. 

I have seen some naval spec pay trades that do JACK onboard (thats right you ops room types).  A steward/cook works harder than most naval ops trades.  Sure they work during exercises and gulf deployments, but other than that they are spelling each other off watching the same movie in the mess for days on end.....


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

I have to go with dolphin hunter on this one, being a former naval ops type myself (not spec trade mind you) and indeed watched the same movies for days on end in the mess, even on a gulf trip, perhaps it should be renamed retention pay. And indeed a steward does put in a lot of hours folding napkins and cleaning cabins and getting ready for cocktail parties (at sea anyway) and managing messes (all messes - Army, Navy, Airforce) alongside, Bosuns, very hard working bunch, maybe spec should do a flop.  I know paid for waht you know not what you do. But then thats why Soldier's get foreign service pay the day they leave the country, doin the do from day, sailors from around day 35 on.


----------



## ModlrMike

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> When is it foreseen that this (fulltime FOA or whatever it will be called) will be implemented?



It was part of the last budget... which has yet to be blessed by the Senate and passed by the House. I would imagine that once the budget has passed, Treasury Board will need to work out the implementation. In short... don't expect to see it any time soon.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> Oh and please tell me your not going to get field pay full time on Canadian soil???  I can Justify my Sea pay while on ship full time.  Some one rationalize field pay full time for me.


Ok now for my inflamed bit, you can justify sea pay while posted to a ship, go for it, becuase after 7 years on seagoing units I couldn't and still can't, yes duty watches suck, about 1 in 13 at the very best, between base duties and unit duties field soldiers are doing about the same, you get lunch every day, soldiers actually have to go to the field for that comfort, and then have to make it themselves, you get a hot shower every day, a soldier in the field might get a hot shower every week in the field. You have a bed a nice little 6x2 1/2 space that is your world, a soldier gets a bivy bag and an air matress, Coffee is always ready you have a scullery hand to make it for you (and yes I've stood molly) a soldier gets up for a security picket and he's boiling water in a canteen cup to make some horrible instant coffee. So now please justify full time sea pay, even when you're in drydock going home at noon every day or on a lengthy course.


----------



## Armymedic

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I think infanteers really do deserve spec pay. As a medic have you ever noticed what MOC most of your patients come from?
> 
> Enough said.


And you guys thought I was funny...



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> And that has to do with "spec pay" how ?
> 
> I'm pretty sure i can name alot of bases where medics never see an infanteer


Exactly.


----------



## PO2FinClk

Here is a link to Budget 2007 for those who want to peruse it: http://www.budget.gc.ca/2007/bp/bpc6e.html


----------



## mover1

You know what would solve this whole issue.
Lets separate the forces back to ARMY, Royal Canadian Navy, and Royal Canadian Air Force.
Each has its own budget, each has its own pay scales.
Then we can stop this petty bickering between trades and elements. I don't have an Army guy telling me I am not worth my pay cause I "ain't hardcore enough" and I should sleep in a hole in the ground when there is a perfecly good hotel across the street. :warstory:


----------



## Pte_Martin

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> When is it foreseen that this (fulltime FOA or whatever it will be called) will be implemented?



I was told by our clerk that around Dec. we shoould get it, whith back pay from April


----------



## PO2FinClk

Infantry_ said:
			
		

> I was told by our clerk that around Dec. we shoould get it, whith back pay from April


I suspect he/she probably told you in March rather then December as the federal budget proposal was only tabled in March.

As far as the back pay, I would say possible but wouldn't a nickel on it until it actually happens or is "officially" announced. You have to realise that the implementation of such an allowance will have some significant time challenges associated to it. As other full time enviromental allowances have, this one likely have time incentives which have to be calculated for all pers. That doesn't happen overnight and can be a very lengthy process.

As another mentioned, the senate has not blessed the budget yet. Until such a time no official direction of implementation will be issued, in turn means that anything mentioned about where and when is purely rumint, nothing else. There would be hell to pay if I were to find out one my clerks was spewing such rumours.


----------



## Pte_Martin

I mean Dec of this year is when we were told we would see the pay come, I also saw some kind of Memo maybe CANFORGEN? saying that the pay is set to come soon, when i go to work this afternoon i check to see if i can get a copy


----------



## PO2FinClk

Precisely, the Budget proposal was tabled in March 07 thus the info was not promulgated in December 2006.

Pay Raises and the implementation of Enviromental Allowances are 2 very distinct matters from one another, they nothing to do with each other. One is Federally legislated the other is labour relative with TB approval. The CANFORGEN you mention is 102/07 which does state that any raise would be retro-active to 1 Apr 07, continuous FOA will be addressed specifically and perhaps even (more then likely) on a separate message.


----------



## Armymedic

It would be interesting to see how this environmental allowance for the Army is implemented.

And even with this $285 per month for environmental allowances, certain trades will say they deserve more because they work harder in the field....


----------



## Teflon

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> And you guys thought I was funny...
> Exactly.



oh I still think you are


----------



## Armymedic

Glad I could entertain you


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Its not the rank and file who decide who gets spec pay, enviromental alllowances etc. Its Ottawa and the Treasury Board. They decide who gets what and who does not get it. Deal with it, don't whine about it. Everyone here for the most part picked what element and trade they went to, this petty jealousy over the fact that someone gets more or less is unprofessional and does nothing but cause an un necessary rift between elements.


----------



## Greymatters

If they dont like their current trade status (0/1/2) they can always retrade to a higher paying trade?  >


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Right because every trade will let go of any member that wants to OT.  The infantry will only release 33 this year across the board at all levels.  The arty are letting even less go.  Easier said then done.


----------



## Greymatters

I was being sarcastic, but your statement is true nonetheless.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

My apologies.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Admiral Buck said it best when he asked the crew of Protecteur during Op Toucan

"Who joined the military to get rich?"

If you want more money then get out and find a job that pays more money.


----------



## Greymatters

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> My apologies.



NP, I should have added more sarcasm... next we'll be be sipping tea and eating cucumber sandwiches.


----------



## PO2FinClk

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Admiral Buck


Pfft, although I may respect his rank I truly have no respect for the man wearing it. Nothing short of a political advantist.


----------



## tree hugger

Tell us what you really think.... ;D


----------



## George Wallace

The main flaw in this is that then we would all have to get SPEC PAY as we are all expected to be "Soldiers First".


----------



## tree hugger

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> routinely conduct their missions while routinley doing other peoples jobs.  And I don't mean doing them because the others can't, more so due to the manning and capabilities of some organisations prevents them from doing it en masse in the field. Some of these are as follows;
> 
> Int Op - gathering int while on patrol, especially those with a tactical questioning course;
> MSE Op - Cbt arms are always planning and conductiong road moves (combat patrols). selecting the route, organizing the support etc;
> Public Affairs - spreading the good of the CF to foreign people and within Canada;
> Armoured operations - Inf, Arty and Eng all conduct Armd Ops with their own armd veh;
> FCS/Wpns tech - more often than not, these trades are not on a three week op with a rifle company, and the soldiers have to make their guns work however they can;
> Medics - more than 50% of casulties are treated by their buddies prior to a medic getting to them;
> Signals - everyone is expected to make their radios and other sigs kit work, often without a signaller to assist;
> MP - Cbt arms are always the first to take prisoners and on nearly every occasion been responsible for the POW movement back to a secure point; and
> Geo tech - cbt arms on patrol are responsible for confirming maps, noting descripencies and forwarding them higher.



To me this original argument is flawed.  It sounds like you're saying that Infanteers need to know some of everything ie. a generalist.  To me, your definition for an infanteer seems closer to being a "generalist" and not a "specialist".  Spec is short for specialist - ie. spec pay.


----------



## aesop081

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> And even with this $285 per month for environmental allowances, certain trades will say they deserve more because they work harder in the field....



That doesnt matter...just like sea pay and aircrew allowance, its based on the number of years you have been in a designated position entitled to receive the allowance.


----------



## Navy_Blue

Wow I Apologize for the fire storm I set in motion.  

Its a fight that can't be won.  I earn my sea pay 100% no NATO knee, no jumping off everytime the ship unties for a crap fish pat.  I do my Dutywatch 2 and 3 stints per month (soon to be 4 on subs).  A duty on ship is nothing like a watch on base.  You write off the next day just to get used to real life again.  

I don't get sea pay now and wont till I'm qualified and posted to an operational sub again.  My free lunch is gone too...3 of 4 subs in refit.  Should I get Sea pay now?  If you guys are getting field pay I think I should.


----------



## HItorMiss

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> I don't get sea pay now and wont till I'm qualified and posted to an operational sub again.  My free lunch is gone too...3 of 4 subs in refit.  Should I get Sea pay now?  If you guys are getting field pay I think I should.




Ummm here is the difference your missing, Everyday for me has the potential to see my slogging my trade in the field, Heck I just did 2 straight days of ranges from 0600-2300, in that there was very little in terms of comfort (as per usual, and no I don;t really care about comfort) And today I spent the day in the back 40 doing Mortar Drills. So in essence even though I am not sleeping in the field I am staying there just about everyday. So everyday is a field day or the potential exist for a field day. While your along side and your rubber dingy is in dry dock for 6 weeks there is no hope in heck your going to sea is there? but your still collecting your sea pay. Are you seeing why now?


PS: I just though rubber dingy was funny, no slight to the Navy intended ( well ok a little one but all in good fun  )


----------



## Navy_Blue

I can tell you that we don't live and work on cruise ships and you guys don't work on golf courses.  

I'm not getting Sea pay right now and I'm doing the same work minus Duty watch and sailing it still makes sense that don't get it.    

neither of us can win this we are all getting the short end of the stick as far as I'm concerned.  I can tell you that once you guys get your incentive to stay in your trade our bosses in the navy will say "that's crap" and start a whole new fight.  Endless.  

Good luck too everyone on there quest for more pay.


----------



## aesop081

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> Good luck too everyone on there quest for more pay.



Whats wrong with the pay now ?


----------



## thegeneral

there should be no question that the cmbt arms deserve to recieve this spec pay. i do not mean this in a rude manor but no sailor should be commenting on what we recieve for training and being ready at all times to go over seas to put our lives on the line for a country and our brothers in arms. we are all specialits in some form either infantry or armoured or atry. and are alwasy learning new components of many trades. perosnally i physically train twice a day and at all times have my kit ready to go. cmbt arms deserves everything that we can get.. and there should be no other opinion voiced towrds what the soliders who are the first on the ground to defend and protect the other non combatant troops .. 

..PRO PATRIA...  lest we forget...


----------



## Michael OLeary

And with that little rant we are done here until someone has some officially published facts to present.

thegeneral, may I suggest the next  "new components" you may want to work on should involve tone, tact and capitalization, or you may find your welcome here a little rough.

PRO PATRIA

Army.ca Staff


----------



## SOLDIER702

Okay, so this may have been asked before, and if so I have been unable to find it. As a soldier in these fine Canadian Forces, how can one get the most from their tax return? I have heard crazy rumours around Pet that we can claim things like haircuts, and boot polish?? I guess it is a "business expense". This year for me anyway, cash is particularly tight and I'm hoping I can get some money back from the Tax man.

Any suggestions?


----------



## George Wallace

No matter what anyone says, you are not allowed to claim haircuts and boot polish.  Try reading the topic on the CF and Your money.  Lots of helpful hints there.


----------



## God56

I have been claiming haircuts and encouraged to by my CoC, I have also claimed, hygiene stuff like soap shampoo, razors, toothpaste, etc.


----------



## Yrys

God56 said:
			
		

> I have been claiming haircuts and encouraged to by my CoC, I have also claimed, hygiene stuff like soap shampoo, razors, toothpaste, etc.



I hope you have a lot's of moolah tuck away to appease the tax man, if they audit your papers ... because their interest rates and penalties ain't
customers friendly ...


----------



## niceasdrhuxtable

God56 said:
			
		

> I have been claiming haircuts and encouraged to by my CoC, I have also claimed, hygiene stuff like soap shampoo, razors, toothpaste, etc.



So if you hadn't joined the CF you wouldn't wash your hair or brush your teeth?


----------



## SOLDIER702

Yeah, that's what I thought, but I had heard, so naturally I felt it my duty to investigate the possibility of getting more money back, I have a small RRSP  and some tax deductible donations to include on my taxes and with Pte(3) pay I think I should be able to get something back....


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Yeah, we were talking about that fad just the other day here.. it was popular in the 90s... clothing upkeep allowance used to cover it, which made it even sillier to claim back then.

I hear if you go over to some war torn country.. they give you a tax break AND it's a great way to meet new people!!

Myself.. I have always made sure that the pay office is taking or leaving the correct amount at source to ensure that I come out on top at the end of the year.  Charitable donations do help alot and I challenge everyone to do them, $25 a month doesn't hit that hard.. 

Of course as I am sure you have already heard.. keep all receipts that you claim in case you do get audited.. knock on wood.

And another thing, if you have very simple tax returns to complete I highly recommend downloading and using studiotax.  It's free!!


----------



## geo

Haircuts, dry cleaning, shoe polish and all that wonderful stuff are "personal expenses"... the same as the fuel you burn on your way to work each morning.

You already have basic personal exemptions...... if you claim it a second time.... you're double dipping.

For the value of whatever saving you're going to eek out by claimnig this stuff, it's not worth it.


----------



## geo

Piper,
It may be only an issue that your sister has asked to have more taxes taken off during the year..... to receive a refund in time for her vacation.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> So if you hadn't joined the CF you wouldn't wash your hair or brush your teeth?


 :rofl:


----------



## George Wallace

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> So if you hadn't joined the CF you wouldn't wash your hair or brush your teeth?



Nor eat to maintain your required strength to conduct your duties?

Do you claim meals too?


----------



## SOLDIER702

geo said:
			
		

> You already have basic personal exemptions...... if you claim it a second time.... you're double dipping.



Okay Now what's this? I'm afraid I'm a bit naive when it comes to matters such as these, I've heard about personal exemptions but I have no clue what they are.


----------



## George Wallace

SOLDIER702 said:
			
		

> Okay Now what's this? I'm afraid I'm a bit naive when it comes to matters such as these, I've heard about personal exemptions but I have no clue what they are.



Line 5804  on ON428   T1 Special - 2007

Line 300     on T1 Special (2007)   Revised Schedule 1


----------



## teddybear

In order to claim haircuts, etc you need your employer (DND) to sign a form - Conditions of Employment - stating that these expenses are required for your job. Good luck getting anyone with signing authority to put their signature on the form. Every year we got the same questions from clients and our answer was always the same....not entitled. If you want to claim it, be prepared for a tax audit and the associated penalties that come with it. And I know, lots of people claim it and don't get caught. I personally would not want to take the chance of them auditing me and then looking at previous years returns to see if I made the same claims!


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Piper, as I stated.  I talked with pay people in the past and made sure that I was happy at the end of the year instead of owing.


----------



## niceasdrhuxtable

Keeping in the vein of tax-related inquiries, I've often wondered if it's possible to decline to have your income tax automatically taken from your bi-monthly pay and just pay one lump sum at the end of the fiscal year. Anyone know if this is possible?


----------



## geo

simple answer.... nope!
Your employer is obliged to make deductions and remit them either monthly OR bi-monthly


----------



## Yrys

I know that some employers permit modulation of income tax on the pay check (I've ask once to have more taken 
to receive more   ). I don't think it is legal for an employer to take less then what the government say they have to cut out...

(geo, you're fast  )


----------



## Greymatters

For those with a CF pension and other employment income over 35K, you will need to get the pension crew in Ottawa to take a bit more off or you will end up paying.


----------



## PO2FinClk

This same rumour has been around for decades, and once in a while an official statement comes out to that effect. The last I recall seeing was a few years ago, but in either case and as stated by others above they are not submissible deductions. And while we are on this, Mess Dues are also not claimable as "Professional Dues". If you do so take notice of Yrys comment above about having some cash saved up for the tax man.

A CoC encouraging folks to do this could find themselves facing charges for encouraging folks to commit fraud/tax evasion.


----------



## PMedMoe

Can dry cleaning (DEUs) can be claimed ? (with receipts, of course).


----------



## Yrys

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> If you do so take notice of Yrys comment above about having some cash saved up for the tax man.



Thanks .

I've since found a better way, help by a remark of the new accountant, when she said that by doing that I lost the interests it could have make :
some banks have "virement automatique" (automatic transfer) possible to install into your bank account. I've made some for pension plan, investments, 
vacations, etc...


----------



## exgunnertdo

Regarding raising or lowering the amount your employer takes off there's a form you can fill out to amend the amount your employer is required to take.  It's called a TD1 http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/td1/td1-08e.pdf

For raising the amount - You can ask them to take more tax, just by giving them a dollar amount.  This is very useful for Class A PRes folks, if you have another job.

To lower the amount, you fill in the appropriate deductions you plan to claim when you file your taxes (spousal amount for example).  The employer will then use that to recalculate your taxes.  You won't get a refund then (or not as big a refund).

But you cannot say "take nothing, I'll write you a cheque in April."  If you fill out the TD1 and add a bunch of bogus expenses, first, it's called fraud, and second, the next year they'll make you pay quarterly installments.  And they will get the money.  CRA has more power than you can imagine to take money (like right out of your bank account).

But if you seriously want to get less tax taken off, rather than getting a refund in April - talk to the pay office about amending your TD1.  And why not - better in your pocket than the gov'ts, right?


----------



## God56

Yrys said:
			
		

> I hope you have a lot's of moolah tuck away to appease the tax man, if they audit your papers ... because their interest rates and penalties ain't
> customers friendly ...



Well I guess I'm out to walmart to go get some clippers and back to the do it yourself haircut cause I don't wanna deal with that even if I can claim it, I'd rather play it safe.


----------



## MamaBear

Or better yet, instead of having extra tax deducted at source set up an automatic RRSP plan with monthly deduction through your bank.  Even if you only have $50.00 taken per month, that adds up to $600.00 in year that is earning interest for you, and is a legitimate tax deduction.  So come tax time, you also save from $120.00 - $180.00 in taxes (and will get that back if the right amount of tax was taken by your employer).

Many people get confused with allowable deductions because people who are self-employed can claim some expenses they paid in order to earn income.  For instance, they can claim meals (at 50%) if they had a dinner meeting with a client.  However, the reason for the meeting, who was there, and what was discussed must be well documented.  I am a stage actor/teacher and considered self-employed.  Most of the contracts I make do not have any tax taken at source.  I can claim the business use of my car, business use of part of my home (if using one room as an office), etc.  It may sound great, but it really costs more than being an employee. There is no coverage for sick days or holidays (if you don't work you don't earn anything), a self-employed person has to pay both the employee AND employer portion of CPP - that's double, and even though we don't have to pay EI premiums, we will never get EI benefits.  So if your business is slow or goes belly up... oh well. 

It is much better to err on the side of caution when it comes to deductions at tax time.  Or at least get advice from a professional.  Many people have claimed things and have not been caught....yet.  If you are audited (they can go back six years plus the current year) and if they find errors or ineligible deductions, your taxes will be adjusted and you will repay that amount including interest for all those years and a penalty on top of that.  And THAT'S assuming that they don't think you purposely committed fraud.


----------



## George Wallace

Greymatters said:
			
		

> For those with a CF pension and other employment income over 35K, you will need to get the pension crew in Ottawa to take a bit more off or you will end up paying.



Links that may help to increase deductions:

You can address it directly to the pensions folks, or alternatively through your emplyoer by changing your deductions at source there.

Pensions links:

CF:
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/pension/intro_e.asp

PWGSC (who actually cut the cheques):
http://www.pwgsc.gc.ca/forces-pensions/text/contact_us-e.html


----------



## SOLDIER702

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Line 5804  on ON428   T1 Special - 2007
> 
> Line 300     on T1 Special (2007)   Revised Schedule 1



Ummm.... okay... when I said I was Naive about this stuff I meant really Naive, can someone define "personal exemption" for me? Cause this stuff seems latin to me


----------



## exgunnertdo

Your personal exemption is the part of your income you don't pay tax on.  It's around $9,000 right now.  If you're using tax software, it should put it in for you, if you're using printed forms from CRA, I believe it's written right on the form.

To use nice round numbers:

If you make $30,000 you get to subtract the ~$9,000 from that and you only pay tax on ~$21,000.  (Like I said, round numbers, don't remember the exact amount.)

If you're really really new at this, either get someone to help you who has done it before, or take your stuff to a tax place.  It's not that hard, but the first time you do it, you should get some help if you don't understand.  The computer programs are great, but you still have to understand what's being done.


----------



## SOLDIER702

Sweet, so basically I guess the consensus is, there is no magical thing we can claim on our taxes to get a larger refund without getting audited, sounds fair enough to me.


----------



## geo

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Can dry cleaning (DEUs) can be claimed ? (with receipts, of course).



Nope - same thing as for haircuts, shoepolish..... and gas to get you & your car to the base every day.

These are +/- included in your basic personal exemptions and that 1000$ Employment expense deduction


----------



## Bzzliteyr

In regards to RRSP contributions I had a friend of mine that did this as a good practice for a life in the military:

Everytime he got a pay increase (pay level up, cost of living adjustment, etc..) he would tas\ke half of the new monthly addition and add it to a predetermined RRSP account.  He would never "miss" the money as he didn't have it anyway, and by the end of your 20 (25) years in you'd have a nice monthly installment going in towards your future.


----------



## UnrulyCanuck

I'm having second thoughts about joining up after seeing the pay scale. A private only makes $30K? Does that increase at all after BMQ?  No offense to those currently serving at this rank, but I make almost $8K more in my civilian job. That's a huge cut before promotion to Corporal, which takes what 2-3 years to get to?

Now does the fact that I am semi-skilled for my MOC make a difference?


----------



## aesop081

What did you expect the pay to be ?

I'm sorry that 8k a year is a "big drop" for you but does your civvie job include free healthcare, free dental, free prescription drugs. Does your job provide all the clothing and tools for your job, pay for all the training, has a pension plan and more time off a year than you can shake a stick at ? Does your job pay for any continuing education you may wish to take ?

Does your job arrange for compassionate leave and pay for compassionate travel if something was to happen to a dependant ? Does your civvie job take you all over the world at no expense to you ?

Yeah...i didnt think so.......


----------



## Fraz

Never mind the fact that if you're joining up for the pay, you are RTF out of 'er.
We would be better off without those who care about the paycheque.  Perhaps if you truly want to serve your country, take note of the above reply, and give your head a shake.  
Maybe you're just curious about pay, if so don't worry, you'll be making over 40K as a PTE 3 after 2 years.


----------



## MedTechStudent

Ok, I'm sure he feels terrible now.  Can anyone answer his actual question?

Also, for all you know he might be in a situation in which he really needs that $8,000 a year to make ends meet.  If not then your harsh comment are well deserved but I feel I should at least ask, "Do you really NEED that $8,000 Canuck?".   Because if not, then they are right, the opportunities and benefits the CF gives you are much greater than most if not all civilian professions.  Unless your an Astronaut, your not right?   

Good luck with it, Kyle


----------



## 2 Cdo

UnrulyCanuck said:
			
		

> I'm having second thoughts about joining up after seeing the pay scale. A private only makes $30K? Does that increase at all after BMQ?  No offense to those currently serving at this rank, but I make almost $8K more in my civilian job. That's a huge cut before promotion to Corporal, which takes what 2-3 years to get to?
> 
> Now does the fact that I am semi-skilled for my MOC make a difference?



30,000/year is pretty good for an ENTRY LEVEL position in just about any organization. Plus GUARANTEED  pay increases yearly which will see you making over 50,000/year as a Corporal. That's not counting everything CDN Aviator noted.

But if it's just about the money then I suggest you stay where you are, I don't think you will be to happy in our little club.


----------



## MedTechStudent

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> I don't think you will be to happy in our little club.



Lol, with matching uniforms and everything!


----------



## UnrulyCanuck

Hey apologize for my remarks. I don't mean to offend. And I do want to serve my country. I'm not in it for the money. It's just with today's standard of living in some parts of the country, that could make things tight. I don't live an extravagant lifestyle by any means..... I live by myself in a 1-bdrm apartment. I just meant to say that I finished school last year and I have a large student loan to pay off. I'm just being realistic, not pessimistic. Now maybe the pay scale doesn't take into the fact that that the rates shown are AFTER taxes, because if it is, I can understand that.


----------



## 2 Cdo

UnrulyCanuck said:
			
		

> Hey apologize for my remarks. I don't mean to offend. And I do want to serve my country. I'm not in it for the money. It's just with today's standard of living in some parts of the country, that could make things tight. I don't live an extravagant lifestyle by any means..... I live by myself in a 1-bdrm apartment. I just meant to say that I finished school last year and I have a large student loan to pay off. I'm just being realistic, not pessimistic. Now maybe the pay scale doesn't take into the fact that that the rates shown are AFTER taxes, because if it is, I can understand that.



Money you get paid while attending your "basic training" is yours, as rations and quarters are covered. Once you are finished basic and get your first posting you can live in quarters and eat to your hearts content at the mess hall! With a little planning and sacrifice you could probably eliminate most or even all of your student debt.

As for pay scales, unless something has changed the pay shown is gross, not net.


----------



## PuckChaser

Being a Class B reservist, I make close to $50K straight out of college... I couldn't ask for a better job, with decent benefits and the chance to make more money while travelling around the world.


----------



## Rodahn

Carp; and I thought that I was doing very well at $3900 per annum when I joined..... I always had money in my pocket, lived in shacks and had a great time (plus the medical and dental etc that we definitely needed back then)...


----------



## helpup

A couple of good points were brought up about living in differant parts of the Country, out West is more expensive and the taxes in some provinces are higher then others.  Add to the fact that life in the shacks right now are not the optimum and in some bases there is a shortage of shacks that sees troops more then encouraged not to rely on them for too long.  Hence the PMQ's turning into SQ's.  But that will vary from area to area.  Depending on the trade there may be Spec pay involved.  But the points about 30 G starting is a pretty good pay since your first year or so is pretty well booked getting qualified for your trade.  Time off starts at 20 days per year that is week days with Stats a given and depending on your unit or trade usually sees you using 10 days annual for 3 weeks off.  Mind you some trades are more stingy then others with time off.  The dental and medical are great points especially since not all provinces provide dental coverage. Guaranteed pay raises for your first 8 years in that as was pointed out will see you earning over 50K before the 8 years are up.  Speaking of just the money side of it there is PLD for living in higher rate areas and Alberta now gets that.  Tours bring in extra money but I think I speak for most of us in saying that most would do it with out the extra money but hey lets be honest it does help.  One tour in most cases effectively wipes out allot of student loan debts. 

I don't do this job for the money.  But the money I make is enough for me to live fairly well on.  More importantly I like to serve, learn, teach. I am mentally and physically challenged, and more importantly made aware of my own limitations and how to overcome or work with those limitations.  I could of done allot of other things in life but I don't see myself enjoying life and my job as much as I do now.  And I am the first one to correct any of the younguns who go on about what the Army will qualify you for that you can use on Civi street.  Yet it still will boil down to if you enjoy your job do it, if not then do something else, the choice is always yours.


----------



## lone bugler

Em hate to say this but if pay is the top of your priority list, I think you make a poor candidate for the forces. I'm not saying money means nothing but having 30k a year in the forces is plenty to live comfortably. If you want a challenge, If you want to serve your Country, If you believe what your doing is what you love than I'd say It makes up for that 8k.  The forces is not for everyone, so if this isn't true, that's ok, just keep your civi job because once your in, people count on you


----------



## jzaidi1

My friend,

You will find that in the grand scheme of things that extra civvie pay does not make up for the expertise, life experience and skills you gain in the CF.  I went that route and have regretted almost every minute of it.  

Looking back - I "could" have taken a cut in pay, live on a tight budget for a few years, while reaping the enormous benefits the CF has to offer.  Not to mention that I would gladly give up 30-40% of my income right now if it meant I had lifetime job security, cool work and lived in a brotherhood that the CF offers.  You will NEVER find that in a civvie company - how many of your coworkers you know currently will step in front of a bullet for you?  Most would probably throw you in front of harms way to protect themselves.

8k may seem like a huge cut but in the grand scheme of things you will earn the difference back many times over.  Also consider, on civvie street your 38k salary could be gone with little to no notice - that will never happen with the CF.

Clearly priorities rule but if there is a will, then there is a way.  In high lifestyle cities, you can rent a room/apartment in a house for fairly cheap (assuming base housing is full), even in Toronto.  You just have to look a little harder.

J


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Also, if you are posted to an area of the country with an identified high cost of living, there is a benefit called PLD if you live in PMQs or on the economy (off the base, not in Single Quarters).  If you search 2008 PLD you should be able to find the current fiscal year PLDA (PLD Areas) and PLD amounts.


----------



## Roy Harding

As others have noted, pay shouldn't be the deciding factor in making the decision to join.  However, as still OTHERS have noted, it does have an effect.

Take another look at the pay scales - although you will be starting at $30K (whilst learning a trade which you would have to PAY for on civvie street), the pay quickly climbs to very acceptable levels.  The days of soldiers frequenting food banks (which days I lived through - and even THEN, nobody with a lick of common sense needed to visit a food bank) are long gone.

The $30K is simply the starting point - look beyond it to the future, even if you don't progress past the rank of Cpl in your career, you'll be making a comfortable living.

Best of luck to you.

Roy


----------



## jzaidi1

...also another point to make.  We are living in good economic times "right now" so job are a plenty, but when the next recession hits (and it will), the value of job security and steady pay will be held in even more esteem than an 8k difference.  I lived/worked through 2001 in IT and had many friends lose their jobs, cars, condos, etc.  My CF buddies were still happily cruising along during that time and although they made less money - in the end they were ahead financially.  Remember though, this is a benefit and shouldn't be used as the top priority for joining the CF.  Duty and Honor first, benefits a distant second or third.

J


----------



## hauger

Must be nice to be most people on the board here.  Lot's of self-rightousness at work.  

Benefits do have a value, and so they should be factored in, but if someone's looking to drop $8K a year in salary, unless the prescription drugs and dental he's using now suck up $8K (ish, less taxes) in expenses, it's still a loss game.  

"Honour" & "Serving the country" sounds real good, and they're good, soft, noble, throw away words, but when the car loan needs paying, maybe a wife and child to support, $8K is a lot of cash.  Anyone who says otherwise is being a money snob.  I don't care how much you want to serve, at the end of the day you still need to pay the bills.  Someone used to a higher salary coming in probably has commitments reflecting that higher salary.

Anyone who says money doesn't matter isn't trying to live without enough of it.

UCanuck, I feel for you.  When I joined, I took a $10K drop.  That required a rather drastic change in lifestyle to be able to meet obligations and maybe have a twenty in my wallet at the end of the day.  No amount of free aspirin or free world wide trips (that I never went on) made up for that drop.  Still, it was initial pain for long term gain, the end result seeing me a LOT more happy in my work, and being compensated quite fairly.  When I first asked about pay at the recruiting office, the guy there gave me a pay scale with all the ranks, and in many instances up to 4 differing scales per rank with incentives.  Hard to decipher when you have no idea what you're looking at.

Anyways, it boils down to whether you think you can function at the lower pay rate (if you can't, don't try), and whether you think that the end result is worth it in the end (in my case it really, really was).  Good luck.

Oh....and as an aside....for all the "money isn't as important" posters....I'd love to see the reaction when Cpl. Someone tells them their TD claim is being denied or some other money claw-back.  You'd see just how much money matters then.


----------



## George Wallace

:

hauger

Let's see.  Single guy, paying Rent, Electricity, Water, Cable, Telephone, Oil/Gas, Food, etc., now on his way to joining the CF with a $8K drop in pay, but less than 90% of those bills and necessary costs.  Seems to balance out about even in the end in most of our eyes.  

So.........I don't see much in the "Self-rightousness" at work here, except perhaps in your post.....but thanks for the clarifications anyway.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Well, I think everyone is shooting blind.  This is a 32 year old adult male, not an 18 year old out of high school.  Who know's what personal debt load he has?  Aside from himself that is.


----------



## hauger

Still misses the point.  He'd (as a single guy) have to pay R&Q's.  That's not free....or cheap. Rations here are running around $425/month. Quarters maybe $100 - $250 depending on where and what's offered.

It boils down to not crapping on the guy just because he's sweating his budget.  His question pulled unhelpful responses which basically said "if you're worrying about your budget, then your heart isn't in it and you should walk away".  Not a grown up response.  It's self righteous to crap on a guy for worrying about money because you have the luxury of not having to.

Yes, your heart does need to be in it and you need to join for the right reasons, but money is very important, staring down a 21% gross pay cut is scary, and a barrier for otherwise devoted, qualified applicants.  Sure, the deal offered by the CF is great, but again, people need a certain amount of cash in pocket to meet existing obligations.

Funny....money shouldn't matter when joining, but the way I hear it, it sure is a giant consideration come retirement.  Seems I hear something like "I can make uber $$$ working here instead of staying in the CF" quite a lot.


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Well, I think everyone is shooting blind.  This is a 32 year old adult male, not an 18 year old out of high school.  Who know's what personal debt load he has?  Aside from himself that is.



Agreed for the most part. People joining the CF have to realize however that they are starting at the entry level where, even as a QL3 qualified Pte, you are still very much unqualified in your trade. The pay is on par with what skills and knowledge a Pte has.........you cant start new and have the top salary. If $8k is that big a deal then thats fine, no "self rightousness" on my part, just saying that there are benefits to life in the CF that dont have a dollar value attached and that people on civvie street pay handsome sums to get something similar. Try and find a civvie job that will start you at $40k+ and have 20 days paid vacation, medical, dental, pension, LTA, etc........and hire you when you have no qualifications for the job whatsoever.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

hauger said:
			
		

> *Still misses the point.  He'd (as a single guy) have to pay R&Q's.  That's not free....or cheap. Rations here are running around $425/month. Quarters maybe $100 - $250 depending on where and what's offered.*



Not if he maintains a residence.  There are some benfits, who has to/doesn't have to pay R & Q specific to Recruits in training.  If he is in a lease, he has to either break it, which there is compensation for, and then pay R & Q, or maintain his residence and not pay R & Q.  That is the info the member should be getting from the clerks at the CFRC.


----------



## hauger

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Not if he maintains a residence.  There are some benfits, who has to/doesn't have to pay R & Q specific to Recruits in training.  If he is in a lease, he has to either break it, which there is compensation for, and then pay R & Q, or maintain his residence and not pay R & Q.  That is the info the member should be getting from the clerks at the CFRC.



True.  Except, he'd then still have to pay for the residence back home.  There's no free lunch, you're on the hook for either R&Q or rent/mortgage back home.  It's a zero-sum game.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Agreed for the most part. People joining the CF have to ralize however that they are starting at the entry level where, even as a QL3 qualified Pte, you are still very much unqualified in your trade. The pay is on par with what skills and knowledge a Pte has.........you cant start new and have the top salary. If $8k is that big a deal then thats fine, no "self rightousness" on my part, just saying that there are benefits to life in the CF that dont have a dollar value attached and that people on civvie street pay handsome sums to get something similar. Try and find a civvie job that will start you at $40k+ and have 20 days paid vacation, medical, dental, pension, LTA, etc........and hire you when you have no qualifications for the job whatsoever.



I agree with what you are saying, and for the record...I never mentioned self righteousness stuff  ;D. I just wanted to point out that the guy is 32 so he likely has more $$ obligations than Johny out of highschool.  

Really, I just thought who knows, maybe he has child support, or something like that is fixed and you can't really not pay.  Its hard for someone new to understand how the IPCs, ranks, whats the difference between a Standard and Spec 1 or 2 MOC, etc etc.  You made some excellent points about the short term and long term benefits, as well as some other people have, but I think Hauger was trying to point out that sometimes 8k is a big deal and can be a deal-breaker.  He just did it in such a way as to draw some spec fire.   ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

hauger said:
			
		

> True.  Except, he'd then still have to pay for the residence back home.  There's no free lunch, you're on the hook for either R&Q or rent/mortgage back home.  It's a zero-sum game.



Thats what I said, isn't it?  But with the rate at which DCBA policies and the like change, the best thing he can do is get the latest and greatest from the RMS clerks at the CFRC.


----------



## hauger

Thought I should apologize for the "self righteous"...it just makes my blood boil to see an otherwise innocent question get gang-crapped on.  Probably a bit harsh of a statement to make on my part.


----------



## MedTechStudent

This thread is fast becoming "Does the CF pay enough money?"   

Which as I said I think it does, however, hauger is right, no one really knows whether he needs that 8k but him.  If he does then maybe it will be a bit of a pinch.  Since he has not put an input into this thread since his apology for accidentally offending people.  Its kind of silly to talk about _his_ situation.  Maybe we could side track it to our own personal financial situations?  To whom ever here feels comfortable disclosing that.  Like me for instance, I have no worries because I don't have any student loans, which seams to be the big issue for lots of people looking to join, based on the applicants and CFRC staff that  i've talked to.  I won't have _tons_ of money but thats fine I don't need it, most of the things I need to do the job will just be provided.  

Cheers!


----------



## PMedMoe

Don't forget that in the CF (once you are done BMQ, QL3, etc and posted to your base) you can go see the SISIP guys and get free financial advice and some low interest loans, if required.


----------



## MedTechStudent

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> free financial advice and some low interest loans, if required.



Low interest loans to purchase anything you like or on the grounds that you use the money to pay off other debt?


----------



## muffin

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Low interest loans to purchase anything you like or on the grounds that you use the money to pay off other debt?



The Personal Assitance Fund:

http://www.sisip.com/en/about_e.asp
http://www.sisip.com/en/cfpaf_e/index.asp

I don't know how much things have changed when I was in - but out of control debt used to affect clearances. (Not saying owing money in general - most people do, but rather 
having serious troubles paying it off)

Part of the reason these financial assistance funds were created if I recall.

muffin


----------



## aesop081

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Which as I said I think it does, however, hauger is right, no one really knows whether he needs that 8k but him.



I agree. His poersonal situation asside, if the pay is not good enough for him, thats a personal choice and so be it, good luck to him. That being said, and i know i'm repeating myself here, $30k a year for a job where you can join with not even HS, be completely trained from scratch and all the benefits that are attached is pretty damned good. Its certainly better that the $17k i was making when i joined.


----------



## MedTechStudent

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> a job where you can join with not even HS, be completely trained from scratch and all the benefits that are attached is pretty damned good.



My turn to agree, that was exactly the appeal to me when I was reading through the pay/benefits section. 

I thought to myself, "Pay money and go into debt to go to school for 3 years, or _get paid_ to go to school and get the same degree in 62 weeks.  No brainer" 

 Not to mention with the baby boomers getting up there, a civilian paramedic job is going to be primarily elderly chest pain calls.  Or so my girlfriends father (Peterborough EMS) has told me.



			
				muffin said:
			
		

> The Personal Assitance Fund:
> 
> http://www.sisip.com/en/about_e.asp
> http://www.sisip.com/en/cfpaf_e/index.asp
> 
> I don't know how much things have changed when I was in - but out of control debt used to affect clearances. (Not saying owing money in general - most people do, but rather
> having serious troubles paying it off)
> 
> Part of the reason these financial assistance funds were created if I recall.
> 
> muffin




Thanks for those links muffin!

Cheers!


----------



## CountDC

First off Canuck - I encourage you to ignore the slams that have been posted here. I have served 23 years and you can be sure that everyone I have ever dealt with sure were worried about money when they had a claim submitted or their pay is short a few dollars.  Mention pay increase is in and watch the dollar signs roll around in their eyes.

Monthly pay scale (effective 1 Apr 2007) for Pte is:

IPC 1 - $2534   (IPC increases each year on the anniversary of your enrolment)
IPC 2 - $3099
IPC 3 - $3722

Unless you are a real screw up year 4 should see you promoted to Cpl which pay scale is:

BASIC -$4260
IPC 1 - $4322
IPC 2 - $4384
IPC 3 - $4445
IPC 4 - $4504

Depending on your location estimate approx 32% of that to be deducted for taxes, pension, cpp, mess dues, etc.

Semi skilled may have an impact on which ipc level they start you at - best to talk to the recruiting staff but don't count on anything until you have it.

Hopefully this helps you.


----------



## jzaidi1

Wow,

There are alot of opinions here and very few facts.  Guilty as charged here - however I can't think of anyone I know (and I know LOTS of people) who's lives hung in the balance over 8k.  Remember, work clothing costs, commute costs will reduce/eliminated when joining the CF - as well, 8k/year breaks down to 5k after-tax or $416/month.

Assuming that this fellow, like most folks spend about $8-10/day on coffee, food, snacks, etc...without even thinking about it.  
- Timmies - $1.50
- Lunch - $5 to $6
- Snack - $1

That $416 shortfall can be reduced to $216/month.  Cut out one or two restaurants/week or a movie a week can reduce the shortfall to say - $180/month.

$180/month = $2160/year shortfall.  Getting creative with expenses will even out the score.  I know I am making a bunch of assumptions here but in the end - there is a way.  Fixed costs aside, the variables can be changed.  It all sounds very ideal but I've taken enough courses, read enough books and been through an exercise like this myself to know it can be done.  Read the "Automatic Millionaire" - it'll help put things into perspective.  It's not easy but the good stuff never is.

J


----------



## PMedMoe

[thread hijack]

8K a year may be a significant drop in pay.  Check out these people who think $40-50 for a Mess Dinner once (or twice) a year might cause undue stress for their finances.  :

[/end thread hijack]


----------



## Dolphado

wow, and I thought 20K a year was good enough!  I'm actually looking forward to making 30K a year!  For me its a $10 000 a year pay increase!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Everyone's situation is their own;  someone who has 2 children he/she loves and is paying child support for may not be able to swing a pay decrease and would have to consider and plan for this.  Not saying this is the case, only using it as 1 example, as a father who pays $600 a month to support his 7 year old daughter, I know this is something you consider when you figure out the ol monthly budget.


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Everyone's situation is their own;  someone who has 2 children he/she loves and is paying child support for may not be able to swing a pay decrease and would have to consider and plan for this.  Not saying this is the case, only using it as 1 example, as a father who pays $600 a month to support his 7 year old daughter, I know this is something you consider when you figure out the ol monthly budget.



As your pay changes, so do your child support payment. If someone takes a decrease in pay, they child support payments decrease as well.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> As your pay changes, so do your child support payment. If someone takes a decrease in pay, they child support payments decrease as well.



It sure does...in my case, annually, unless I want to go thru lawyer fees to appear in court to have it adjusted, which defeats the purpose of saving some $$ on monthly payments as it ends up in the lawyers pockets.  Its a helluva system  ;D


----------



## MedTechStudent

I have a big problem with the child support system, from a sort of different point of view.  When my parents separated, and my mom moved in with my step dad, she did not need any money at all to help look after us trust me.  My dad, being the president of a sporting goods company at the time, making lot of money, had to pay a big percentage to my mom.  However that money did not go to me and my sister, it went to my mom and stepdad.  That money paid for them to go on vacation 5 times a year, it paid for a new kitchen.  It was used as a float while my step dad quit his day job and opened his own business.  You have to understand how upsetting and frustrating that is.  I know that child support is a matter of principal, but I would have rather all that money just been given to my sister and I to but in the bank and save to do what we want.  So I guess what I'm getting at with this is that IMHO I think that the amount of child support given should not only depend on the father/ mothers income but also the spouse with child custody.  Its like welfare, easy to cheat and take advantage if you want to.

EDIT: Apologizes for the resulting thread split, the issue just burns at a few of us it would seam.  >


----------



## armyvern

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> [thread hijack]
> 
> 8K a year may be a significant drop in pay.  Check out these people who think $40-50 for a Mess Dinner once (or twice) a year might cause undue stress for their finances.  :
> 
> [/end thread hijack]



Nice link Moe. 

Training Mess Dinners. Eerily the troops are beginning to ask when our next one is -- I'm about to begin looking at menus once again. We have them in my current Unit at least once a year with all the Jr NCMs present. They actually go over quite well and we keep the cost as low as we can for all the Jr NCMs - ensuring that their annual subsidy is applied against their meal cost etc to lower it (and against Senior NCMs/Officers costs' of attendance who have not yet applied their annual subsidy against a Mess Dinner cost). We also have a system here at this Unit whereby once the subsidy's are applied, that we further reduce the costs to the Jr NCMs by divi-ing up the price which sees us Sr NCMs & Officers pay a little more to lower their costs further.

For example, if the costs of the Dinner was to be 35 bucks each after applying everyone's subsidies, then us higher ups would pay 45-50 bucks each to lower the cost for the troops down to about 20 bucks per Jr NCM. No one here seems to complain about paying the higher cost to make theirs lower for them as we consider it to be an essential introduction for them to our military traditions and heritage. 

We did have one Jr NCM who was quite insistant that the 20 bucks was still too much and that "you can't force me to pay for something I'm ordered to attend." Even despite the fact that, after subsidies, his cost for the 35 bucks per person cost was only going to be 20 bucks because senior members like myself were paying 50 to keep it cheaper for him.

The answer he got was a "you're right -- I can't order you to pay, but I can order you to attend and so you WILL attend, but you will not eat."

That's exactly what happened too. He was a single MCpl, no kids - lived in the shacks and had just came back from a tour. It was very interesting to watch him push his take on the regulations --- to have it all set out plainly for him to see. Rumour has it that he wandered about the workplace making comments about how there was no way that they'd order him to attend and then NOT feed him. One of his Cpls who later came to work for me remarked how he even had made the comment to his subordinates that they were silly for not sticking up for their "rights" because it was going to cost them 20 bucks for a meal he was going to get for free.

No wonder the troops were all so interested in his reaction when the serving began ... and diddly squat got placed in front of him. So essentially he was correct and proved it ... "the military can't make me pay for food at something they order me to attend". He attended as ordered, and it didn't cost him a dime ... 

This was the same Mess Dinner that saw pre-ordered (and paid for) Greco Pizza be delivered to the head table about 1.5 hours in. One for the books.  >

I LOVE Mess Dinners!!


----------



## PMedMoe

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> The answer he got was a "you're right -- I can't order you to pay, but I can order you to attend and so you WILL attend, but you will not eat."
> 
> That's exactly what happened too. He was a single MCpl, no kids - lived in the shacks and had just came back from a tour. It was very interesting to watch him push his take on the regulations --- to have it all set out plainly for him to see. Rumour has it that he wandered about the workplace making comments about how there was no way that they'd order him to attend and then NOT feed him. One of his Cpls who later came to work for me remarked how he even had made the comment to his subordinates that they were silly for not sticking up for their "rights" because it was going to cost them 20 bucks for a meal he was going to get for free.
> 
> No wonder the troops were all so interested in his reaction when the serving began ... and diddly squat got placed in front of him. So essentially he was correct and proved it ... "the military can't make me pay for food at something they order me to attend". He attended as ordered, and it didn't cost him a dime ...
> 
> I LOVE Mess Dinners!!



 :rofl:

Priceless, wish I had been there.  I like Mess Dinners too.  Some of them are a lot of fun.
I didn't know about the subsidies.  Is it like that at all bases?  When I was a no-hook in Greenwood, the prices for the Mess Dinners were broken down by rank as well, the more you made, the more you paid.  It wasn't huge increments either, just made it fairer for the Ptes and Cpls.


----------



## BinRat55

Yeah Vern - could you explain a little about these subsidies? We have 2 or three a year here...


----------



## armyvern

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Yeah Vern - could you explain a little about these subsidies? We have 2 or three a year here...



Here (and this is applicable to here),

The annual subsidy for Snr NCOs & WOs is 20.00. We pay our Mess Dinner costs, then take our receipt into the Mess Manager for reimbursement if the Dinner is held off base (ie at the Delta etc). If the Mess Dinner is held on base, then we simply sign the acquittance roll (kept on a table near the seating plan) when we enter the Mess for the Dinner. If the total cost for the Dinner is 75.00, then those Snr NCOs & WOs would see the amount beside their name on the acquittance roll as 55.00 (if it were their first Mess Dinner that year) or as 75.00 (if they had already been to a Mess Dinner that year & thus already received the subsidy). Whatever the amount listed as "our personal" share on the acquittance roll is removed from our pay via deduction.

This provisions of this are included in our Mess Constitution.

The Junior Ranks Mess (The Maritime Club) stipulates in their constitution that their policy is to contribute $15.00 per member once per fiscal year for attendance at a Mess Dinner. They require a nominal roll of those Jr NCMs attending the Mess Dinner and will pay by invoice to NPF the 15.00/Jr NCM attending.

The Officers also have a re-imbursement policy for a Mess Dinner subsidy once/year, but I am unsure as to the exact amount/workings of theirs.


You'd have to check the constitutions of your own applicable Mess' to find out what/if subsisdies are applicable in your own locations.


----------



## dent

I've searched for but not found information directly relating to my question.

My question....someones promoted upon completion of training in, say, August 2007, to the basic incentive level at their new rank.  They are promoted, however, retroactive to May 30th and paid the appropriate back pay to reflect the retroactive promotion.  Their MPRR show the promotion date as May 30th.

May 30, 2008 comes along....no incentive increase.  Now, asking around, roughly half the people say the incentive increase should be paid on the 30th of May in this scenario (since it's the day of promotion and you've been effectively paid at the basic incentive for one year, although a portion was in back pay), and the other half say it's the date you pin the promo on that triggers the incentive.

Now, before I go to the orderly room to get a clearer answer, I thought I'd ask here to either forarm myself (with CBI ref's or messages or whatnot), or to find out that in fact it is the day of pin-on that counts.

Any help is 100% appreciated.


----------



## dent

Further....my OCDT to 2Lt promo and follow on incentive was paid exactly like the above senario (promoted retroactive with first incentive granted 4 months after actual pin-on).


----------



## geo

The promotion date on your paperwork will be the determining factor.
Promoted May 30th.... expect to get your IPC starting in June

Pin on date can be complicated by a number of issues - paperwork date is the date everything hinges upon


----------



## dent

Thanks Geo.....I'm thinking I might take a walk over and ask....the thing with the orderly room I find is it's best to pre-educate so you don't get dismissed by the easy answer.

From the MPRR:

Promotion: Capt.  
Effective date: 30 May 2007
Seniority date: 1 Jan 2007

Then later:  QL & Date: Aug 2007.

I'm thinking this is worth discussing though.  I just wish I had a bit more to go on than "gut feeling"


----------



## PO2FinClk

This is also further complicated by varying enrolment categories for officers of which the list is long. Read CBI 204.211 and see which article applies to you and work from there. There are also times for new officers where the incentive does not kick in automatically for a range of reasons and needs to be "pushed" through manually. But without being able to look at your ETP Instr and any other applicbale to yourself making a cear assesment through this medium cannot be completed with full accuracy, only speculative assesments can be completed here.

From what I see, your incentive should be effective 30 May 08.

Familiarize yourself with the CBI, look at your messages and then see your OR with your information, only they will be able to asnwer you with complete accuracy.


----------



## dent

Thanks for the help PO.

I looked up CBI 204.211 and gave it a read.  Further, I checked out CBI 204.015(5) (deals with incentive pay and timing) which seems to be very applicable, but really doesn't say anything....namely:

_"204.015(5) (Promotion on enrolment) An officer or non-commissioned member who is promoted to a higher rank effective the date of the member’s enrolment or the day following enrolment is, for the purpose of pay increment increases, deemed to have been enrolled in the rank to which the member was promoted."_

As I read that, it basically says "if you get promoted, you're deemed to be promoted".  Weird.

Anyways, I went to the Orderly room, luckily my old base still has PON, 6 months after posting.  No big deal, hopefully we'll have a smell of an answer soon.  Wish me luck.


----------



## TheCheez

I think the applicable CFAO applies although I'm not entirely sure what it means:
CFAO 204-2 -- INCENTIVE PAY - REGULAR FORCE AND RESERVE FORCE


4.     A member who has met performance standards shall be entitled to incentive pay 
          increments on completion of 12 months qualifying service from the date of enrolment, 
          re-enrolment, transfer, promotion or last incentive pay increment, as detailed 
          in Annex A or Annex B.

6.     Seniority has no bearing on entitlement to incentive pay. Time served in rank, 
          qualifying time awarded on commissioning or promotion and, subject to NDHQ 
          approval, any qualifying service authorized pursuant to QR&O 204, are the 
          determining factors.

7.     Incentive pay may be authorized by the commanding officer (CO).


Further down we see conditions:
8.     Each month NDHQ will identify members eligible for incentive pay
during the month that is three months in the future, eg, in June members
are identified who will be eligible during September.  Members will be
listed in numerical order by SIN.  List will be numbered in a month and
year sequence and will be forwarded to reach the URs approximately ten
weeks prior to the first of the month in which the incentive increase is
due.  In the event no members for a particular Unit Records Support (URS)
are eligible for an award of incentive pay in a particular month, a nil IPC
list will be forwarded.

And since we are not we need to direct the URS to:
b.   Invalid Information.  Where a member is eligible, but is not on
          the list, or is not eligible but is on the list, report the
          particulars to NDHQ/DPS by completing the form at Appendix 2
          (refer also to subparagraph d);


----------



## CountDC

Your incentive goes up each year on the anniversary date of your rank - promo effective 30 May ipc increases 30 May each year until reach max. Senoirity dates and pin on dates have absolutely nothing to do with it. The CFAO says it all if you want something official to take to your pay clerk although I doubt a clerk would need to have it shown to them as they should know this. Normally the system automatically does this but once in a while it does need a good kick.  Good luck in getting it done.


----------



## TheCheez

After checking in with the OR I discovered my incentive level is currently based on my pin on date and not the effective date. They were unsure of the rule and are working on finding an answer.

CountDC if you have a source for that info it would be really helpful. Something that says undeniably that effective date is the correct one.


----------



## geo

cheez
pin on date can often be delayed for a variety of reasons... you should never go by that
There should be a message in your file that says what the effective date of your qualification/promotion.
Ask them to LOOK for it.


----------



## dent

Well, I checked my promo message...it doesn't clear anything up at all.

My promo message says:

_Promoted Capt XX Aug 2007, Capt (GSO) 30 May 2007._

There in might be the rub.....see, I'm paid on the pilot pay scale, but was promoted and back paid as Capt. GSO from between 30 May and my pin on date.  Effective the pin-on date, I then jumped to the pilot pay scale.  So...would that reset the incentive level to the pin on date in this case, since I technically entered another pay chart on that date?

Thanks for all the answers.  I'm guessing (and it's just a guess) that Cheez might be in a similar situation.


----------



## armyvern

dent said:
			
		

> Well, I checked my promo message...it doesn't clear anything up at all.
> 
> My promo message says:
> 
> _Promoted Capt XX Aug 2007, Capt (GSO) 30 May 2007._
> 
> There in might be the rub.....see, I'm paid on the pilot pay scale, but was promoted and back paid as Capt. GSO from between 30 May and my pin on date.  Effective the pin-on date, I then jumped to the pilot pay scale.  So...would that reset the incentive level to the pin on date in this case, since I technically entered another pay chart on that date?
> 
> Thanks for all the answers.  I'm guessing (and it's just a guess) that Cheez might be in a similar situation.



I could be wrong, and if I am PO2 Fin Clerk will be along to correct me any time now ...

But when you rolled to the pilot pay scale, your new incentive would begin there; you went to a new pay table - that should be your new effective date for incentive.


----------



## dent

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> But when you rolled to the pilot pay scale, your new incentive would begin there; you went to a new pay table - that should be your new effective date for incentive.



That's the slow, painful realization I'm coming to as well.  Too bad, I had big plans for that extra $40 after tax......


----------



## PO2FinClk

Back dated promotion or not means nothing with regards to incentives, the effective date is all that matters. According to your last post I re-affirm that your incentive should kick in 30 May 08.  See your Orderly Room! Pilots often have their own criteria's in early DP's until he/she receives her/his Wings, and only by verifying your Pers File could I make a firm determination.

Vern, yes he would go to the equiavlent or next higher incentive (in $ value) to where he is and yes would begin receiving incentives from there ... based on what we know. That is to say unless there are other issues relating to his situation which we are not in the know about. Only his OR could sort this out by confirming the information on his Pers File.


----------



## armyvern

FinClk said:
			
		

> Back dated promotion or not means nothing with regards to incentives, the effective date is all that matters. According to your last post I re-affirm that your incentive should kick in 30 May 08.  See your Orderly Room! Pilots often have their own criteria's in early DP's until he/she receives her/his Wings, and only by verifying your Pers File could I make a firm determination.
> 
> Vern, yes he would go to the equiavlent or next higher incentive (in $ value) to where he is and yes would begin receiving incentives from there ... based on what we know. That is to say unless there are other issues relating to his situation which we are not in the know about. Only his OR could sort this out by confirming the information on his Pers File.



See, I knew you'd be along ... and I don't mind a bit.  




Spanks are good every now and then to those who deserve them.  ;D


----------



## TheCheez

Round and round we go
I suspect Vern is right: because we moved to a new compensation table the 1 year is reset. There's a CBI that I recall reading yesterday that supports this. Pilots complete MOC training, get promoted and pinned the same day, which is often over 3 years(time in Capt promo) from enrollment so the effective date is earlier and we're backpaid to the effective date. Since we were not MOC trained until pin day, the backpay is at GSO and on the pin date we qualify for the pilot pay table.

The OR is on it, at any rate, and hopefully will have a resolution by the time I return from TD.

Thanks all for the help!


----------



## CountDC

hmmm - without eyeballing all the messages I will venture this much at the moment -

it sounds to me like there is actually 2 things happening here but your earlier post does not bear this out (.....see, I'm paid on the pilot pay scale, but was promoted and back paid as Capt. GSO) :

1. promo back dated as a GSO 

2. change of MOC to pilot upon completion MOC Qual crse

pin on date is a red herring term - it just happens to correspond to the grad and MOC change date. Lets say just before pin on you suddenly got extremely sick and the medics rushed you to the hospital where you were held for week.  Upon getting free from there they hold a seperate pin on for you - I am sure that this would have no bearing on your IPC or Pay. Your new MOC would still be effective the course completion/grad day and thus your pay/ipc would be the same.

CBI 204.215 is the one on pay of Pilots Capt up. I looked in both CBI and CFAO and could not find anything in there that would have you go from pilot Lt pay to GSO Capt pay to pilot Capt pay. What refs does the promo msg have?  That will most likely have the key in it.


----------



## X-mo-1979

My wife asked me a question I wasnt too sure on,so I decided to come here and try to find the answer.
My last deployment was tax free,however we just recieved the money back at the end of the year at tax time.
From what someone told her nowadays our pay comes into our bank account with our full gross pay every 15 days with no money taken off for taxes.Is this true?

Did it show up on your first pay while deployed?

Just trying to plan ahead a bit to get every bill we owe paid off,and pour our foundation on the rock!

Thanks


----------



## Gunner

You receive it as you earn it now but it probably won't start until your second month.


----------



## ModlrMike

It's kind of complex, but I'll try to simplify it without going too far wrong.

You get your pay tax free as soon as the risk allowance is entered. Your pay is then deposited to your pay guide "sans tax". At the end of the year, you will get a tax refund as well because you paid too much tax relative to the amount of taxable income. Sound confusing? Here's how it works...

The CF taxes us at a relatviely fixed amout of 1/12 our tax liabiltiy each month. When you are on deployment (lets use 6 months), you will have paid each of your first 6/12 as if the entire year was liable for tax. The wierd fact is that 6/12 of 100% of pay is more than 6/6 of 50% pay, because you get closer to the point where your basic personal exemption and emplyment credits drops you into the lowest tax bracket.

Again, an oversimplification, but the end result is that we actually get two tax breaks by going on tour... the immediate one, and the delayed one.

Mike


----------



## X-mo-1979

Excellent guys thanks so much.
I guess the second month pay you would not recieve the money from the month prior,and that it would come out at end year tax time?

Thanks Modlrmike,its mornin for me,sipping my timmys it still made sense. ;D


----------



## ModlrMike

Once Ottawa has done the electronic pay run, no further action can occur against that month's pay. Anything that goes on the pay guide will be for succeeding months, although it's possible to see a "rebate" on the tax free portion of the first month. I don't know the system well enough to stake any real claim on that though.


----------



## PO2FinClk

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Once Ottawa has done the electronic pay run, no further action can occur against that month's pay.


Close but not completely accurate, the tax exemption is credited at the same time as the Risk Allow is activated. Therefore it will be added on the next pay which could be in the same month. And the pre-determined pay has to be edited to include the additional tax monies or it won't be added.


----------



## CountDC

FinClk said:
			
		

> Close but not completely accurate, the tax exemption is credited at the same time as the Risk Allow is activated. Therefore it will be added on the next pay which could be in the same month. And the pre-determined pay has to be edited to include the additional tax monies or it won't be added.



minor change - therefore it will  should be added - unfortunately not all clerks will do the job to ensure this happens.


----------



## PO2FinClk

Hence why I added the caveat that the PDP had to be amended. To add to yours, and not all supervisors will ensure their staff are well aware of this requirement.


----------



## Puss~in~Boots

A quick note on this is that the pay clerks should ensure that the Risk Allowance is started ASAP. No retroactive adjustment will be made by the CCPS. Ie: If RA is started 1 month late, CCPS will not credit back the taxes for the prior month.

Meddling again


----------



## AverageJoe

OK I joined the military AUGUST 09 as DEO Infantry. 

I Went to IAP/BOTP August 25. 

Promoted to 2LT from OCDT at the end of IAP/BOTP on December 14. 

I have been getting paid as a 2LT the entire time including when I was OCDT.

Anyone know what date my incentive is suppose to increase?

So far I have been assuming that it would be August 25 and would be reflected on my September pay statement but still getting paid at the same incentive level as always.

Is it going to be December 14? 

Anyone able to shine some light on this matter?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Intial IPC would be your COS date, after that your IPC would increase on the date you where promoted.


----------



## AverageJoe

Whats a COS date?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Think you should flag it and tell your Pay Clerk. I know I had to this year as they forgot to increase my IPC.


EDITED TO ADD

COS = Come on Strength 

Not sure if this term is used in the Regular Force, in the Reserve Force it means the date you joined the unit after completing everything from the CFRC.


----------



## armyvern

AverageJoe said:
			
		

> Whats a COS date?



"Change of Strength" 

The date they "owned" you -- officially.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Or what Vern said.  ;D


----------



## AverageJoe

thank you for the quick response I'll try to talk to the pay officer people although right now I don't think I have one cuz Im attach posted to a reserve unit for a next little while.


----------



## dapaterson

AverageJoe said:
			
		

> thank you for the quick response I'll try to talk to the pay officer people although right now I don't think I have one cuz Im attach posted to a reserve unit for a next little while.



Whatever support base support the REserve unit should be able to look at your pay file and let you know what's going on.


----------



## SupersonicMax

While we are on the pilot pay topic...

I was promoted to 2Lt from Ocdt on 1 May 06.  Got my wings on 25 Jul 08.  That gives me 1 year and a bit of back pay to Lt GSO.  Right now, I'm paid Lt GSO, even though I'm qualified pilot and my promotion message says LT PLT pay scale.  Now, I know there are 3 conditions to be met to get the Lt PLT pay. 



> 204.2156(1) (Application) This instruction applies to a pilot in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant who:
> (a) is qualified in the flying of aircraft to the standard established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff;
> *(b) was appointed to the rank of officer cadet or enrolled as a Direct Entry Officer on or before 30 September 1998; and*
> (c) has successfully completed the Regular Officer Training Plan, the University Training Plan (Non-commissioned Members), the Officer Candidate Training Plan (No Former Service and Former Service) or the Special Requirements Commissioning Plan.



I understand I meet 1 & 3 but not 2 (I was enrolled as an Ocdt on 17 jun 00). However, why is there that condition for Lts but not for Capts and up?? 

Max


----------



## dapaterson

In a word, grandfathering.  Those who were in before the rules changed are protected, but from that date forward only Capts and up get pilot pay.  That's my read of the CBI, at least.  Not certain about the background to that decision - perhaps someone with more of a flight background than me can shed light on it?


----------



## SupersonicMax

Thanks for the informative answer dapaterson.  Where could I find information on how they came up with that condition?  Would there be a CANFORGEN (or something similiar) to explain it (issued when the ammendment was done, I assume in... 1998)?

To me, it doesn't make any difference wether you're a Lt or a Capt.  You are qualified in your trade and your trade.  But maybe someone up there thinks it makes a difference...!

Max


----------



## armyvern

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> But maybe someone up there thinks it makes a difference...!



Apparently so ... or the difference wouldn't exist.  >

It was based upon this original change via CANFORGEN 099/98 Sept 98:



> 099/98 281054Z SEP 98 ADM(HR-Mil) *REVISED PAY RATES - 1 OCT 98 - GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS (GSO) INCLUDING PILOTS - LCOLS AND BELOW, MEDICAL AND DENTAL LTS AND 2LTS OF THE REGULAR AND RESERVE FORCE *


----------



## SupersonicMax

ArmyVern. Thanks!  Do you have a copy of what CANFORGEN 099/08 says or is that all it says (ie: no explaination, just the new tables)?


----------



## dapaterson

Max:  You are not qualified for employment in trade as a military pilot; there are still many folks who thunder in having gotten their wings.  You are still a student.  Paying you extra when you're not employable isn't something done in many fields.  Until you can be employed in trade, there is no reason for the CF to pay you extra.

There may be a CANFORGEN out on this, or possibly some other policy document - I'd check the 1 CAD website on the DIN as one location for background.  But compensation decisions such as this are not made lightly.  Generally, such a change would have involved consultation with the Air Force, then processed through staff in CMP, and finally presented to Treasury Board for approval.  People who were brought in under the old policy had their rates of pay protected; that is what their enrollment promised them.  New people, brought in under new terms, will have their new terms respected.  You are covered under CBI 204.211.  .


----------



## SupersonicMax

dapaterson:  I was in no way sarcastic and really thought your post was informative.  

All other Capt that got their wings the same day I did got their Pilot pay right away.  I am qualified in my trade (pilot).  You do not need to be in a flying position to get pilot pay (ground tour guys get the pilot pay, but not the environment allowance).

I'm sorry you took the last post as sarcastic.  It was in no way my intent to come across that way and I was actually serious.

Cheers

Max


----------



## armyvern

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> ArmyVern. Thanks!  Do you have a copy of what CANFORGEN 099/08 says or is that all it says (ie: no explaination, just the new tables)?



Nope. It's since been taken offline due to the many more recent pay rate changes. Further pay rate changes simply incorporate the "Lt/Capt" rule from the original change. They don't need to mention it --- because it's (the Lt/Capt) not changing with each succesive CANFORGEN released on pay.

I mean heck, it's been on the books for 10 years already, unless and until it changes again ... it won't get republished.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Thanks again Vern.  So, there would be no way to find out _why_ that condition got implemented, unless I find some guy that knows why?

Max


----------



## armyvern

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Thanks again Vern.  So, there would be no way to find out _why_ that condition got implemented, unless I find some guy that knows why?
> 
> Max



Well, just by doing a little bit of research -- I'm wagering that it had something to do with the Pilot Retention Program that was underway at that time due to the many experienced pilots who were leaving the CF.

I'm pulling that thought from this CANAIRGEN that preceeded the CANFORGEN by a mere three months and make notes of impending changes to pilots pay. They put their money where it's needed --- towards retaining those at the Capt rank who were experienced. Lts serving at the time, were grandfathered to be included under the "old rules" when they became captains themselves. It all makes sense to me (a rareity I know):



> CANFORGEN 059/98 CAS 033 022202Z JUN
> 
> Pilot Retention Program - Announcement
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> CANFORGEN 059/98 CAS 033 022202Z JUN
> 
> REFS: A. QRO 205.51 - PILOT TERMINABLE ALLOWANCE
> B. QRO 15.075 - VOLUNTARY RELEASE ON RECEIPT OF PILOT TERMINABLE
> ALLOWANCE
> 
> 1. ON 01 JUNE 98, THE MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE ANNOUNCED IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PILOT RETENTION PROGRAM
> 
> 2. IN RECENT YEARS THE CANADIAN FORCES (CF) HAVE EXPERIENCED UNPRECEDENTED RATES OF PILOT ATTRITION. THIS EXODUS HAS RESULTED IN A CRITICAL SHORTAGE OF EXPERIENCED PILOTS AND HAS THREATENED TO PUT THE AIR FORCES OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY AT RISK. IN ORDER TO ADDRESS THE CYCLICAL PROBLEM OF PILOT RETENTION THE CF IS PURSUING A RANGE OF LONG-TERM AND SHORT-TERM INITIATIVES. IT IS IN THE SHORT-TERM AREA THAT THE PILOT RETENTION PROGRAM WAS DEVELOPED. THE PROGRAM HAS TWO ASPECTS, A REDISTRIBUTION OF THE PILOT PAY DIFFERENTIAL AND A TERMINABLE ALLOWANCE IN RETURN FOR A FIXED PERIOD OF SERVICE
> 
> 3. THE REDISTRIBUTION OF THE PILOT PAY DIFFERENTIAL IS RETROACTIVE TO 1 APR 98 AND WILL BE REFLECTED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE IN PILOT MEMBERS PAY. NEW PAY SCHEDULES ARE BEING PRODUCED AND WILL BE DISTRIBUTED TO UNIT PAY OFFICES IN THE NEAR FUTURE
> 
> 4. THE TERMINABLE ALLOWANCE APPLIES TO QUALIFIED REGULAR FORCE PILOTS WHO MEET ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS (REF A) AND WHO CONSENT TO SERVE FOR A FIXED PERIOD OF SERVICE (REF B). AN INFORMATION PACKAGE DETAILING PROGRAM SPECIFICS HAS BEEN FORWARDED TO INDIVIDUAL UNITS (ALSO AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET AT HTTP://WWW.DND.CA/CAS/DAR/HOME.HTM.). THE PACKAGE CONTAINS ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA ALONG WITH REQUIRED APPLICATION FORMS. APPLICATIONS FOR THE ALLOWANCE MUST BE SIGNED PRIOR TO 1 AUG 98
> 
> 5. THE PILOT RETENTION PROGRAM IS HEADED BY COL J. HINCKE, CAS/D AIR PMS, (CSN) 845-3811. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REGARDING THE PILOT RETENTION PROGRAM CAN BE OBTAINED FROM, MAJOR B. COATES, CAS/D AIR PMS 2-4, (CSN) 842-8073. THE OPI FOR TERMINABLE ALLOWANCE (REF A) IS LCDR HAUSBERG, NDHQ/DPPD 2, (CSN) 845-8719 AND THE OPI FOR OBLIGATORY SERVICE POLICY (REF B) IS MAJ JOHN FRANCIS, NDHQ/DPCA 3-4, (CSN) 842-4969
> 
> 6. ENSURE THIS MESSAGE RECEIVES THE WIDEST POSSIBLE DISSEMINATION. AN ELECTRONIC COPY HAS BEEN SENT TO EA COMD 1 CAD, ALL WCOMDS, ALL ECS AND GROUP PRINCIPALS, CFA, CDLS STAFF AND DCINC NORAD


----------



## SupersonicMax

Wow, I never expected to have a clear answer tonite.  Are you at work or do you have access to the CANXXXGEN on the general net? 

Thanks much again!


----------



## armyvern

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Wow, I never expected to have a clear answer tonite.  Are you at work or do you have access to the CANXXXGEN on the general net?
> 
> Thanks much again!



I'm sitting in my room in the shacks in Borden (P198 - nice new shacks that they are) ... with my baselined computer on my DIN access ...  working on lesson plans.  8)


----------



## SupersonicMax

I see, I was wondering!!  

I will still take the matter to my chain of command see what they think about it.  To me it doesn't seem fair that a person is paid Pilot Pay and the other isn't with the same qualifications.  I won't hold my breath, but my promotion message does say Lt PLT, so someone somewhere must think we should get it.

Max


----------



## aesop081

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Max:  You are not qualified for employment in trade as a military pilot; there are still many folks who thunder in having gotten their wings.  You are still a student.



DP....

Max will set me straight if i am wrong but he is in fact employable as a pilot. He can be employed as an instructor in YMJ on either the Hawk or Harvard II. He just needs the FIC course.


----------



## darmil

I recently got back from Afghanistan,I know the tour was tax free I've heard that we get money back from income tax because of being taxed for the tour.What is the average amount we get back?(I'm a cpl 4) do people ever owe money cause of tour?Just making sure prepared if I do owe just thinking ahead.


----------



## stealthylizard

This all sounds confusing, as taxes usually can be.  Does H&R Block know all the ins and outs of this, or is there a better place to go to get your taxes filed for military members?


----------



## Gunner

MikeH said:
			
		

> I recently got back from Afghanistan,I know the tour was tax free I've heard that we get money back from income tax because of being taxed for the tour.What is the average amount we get back?(I'm a cpl 4) do people ever owe money cause of tour?Just making sure prepared if I do owe just thinking ahead.



Tours are tax free meaning you are not paying any taxes on your income while in theatre hence your refund is not as much as you think it may be.  The amount you actually get is dependent on what other sources of income you have, what taxes you paid on it, and what deductions you have.



			
				stealthylizard said:
			
		

> This all sounds confusing, as taxes usually can be.  Does H&R Block know all the ins and outs of this, or is there a better place to go to get your taxes filed for military members?



It's not confusing.  All of the information required will be on your T4 when you receive it from the Govt.  Just make sure H&R Block representative knows that a portion of your salary was tax free for serving overseas.  Make sure you have all of your tax information (last year's notice of assessment, RRSP contributions, non-investment T3 and T5s, charitable donations, etc) all together so you are not hunting all over for it.  As an aside, if you are going to fork out the money for H&R Block to do your taxes, you should consider purchasing a tax software program as it is relatively straight forward.   Either way, if someone is preparing your taxes, ask lots of questions so you understand the process and how you are being assessed.


----------



## GDawg

The regular domestic pay, or at least mine, was still taxed.


----------



## Puss~in~Boots

I thought there was already a thread on this..or is this the one - I'm lost.

The "jists" of it is that your earnings are considered "nontaxable" for the period you are in receipt of Risk Allowance and @ a specific level. Like someone said earlier, it is important that you enrolment(Reservists on Class C especially) and RA are inputted in a timely fashion because we don't adjust any pay/allowance regarding late input of allowance. This is a unit/clerk responsibility.

Also, there is a maximum you can claim a month for tax exemption purposes. This is capped at the CWO IPC04 rate of pay. Note that any credits/debits posted to your account will count towards tax exemption, up to the max) ie: backdated promo posted to ccps while RA is running, you May benefit from more tax exemption. This is the same for debits. It will lower your exemption amount.

The portion of earnings that is deemed non-taxable will be reflected in BOX 43 of the T4 and as a footnote on the Releve1. There is a calculation in the tax return that pertains directly to this.

I'll post some links later fyi like a FAQ's regarding Tax Relief


----------



## dapaterson

The limit is the CFCWO IPC4 rate - meaning that when the increased pay scale for that appointment was promulgated, the cut-off rank/IPC went up to Maj IPC 1 (it used to be a mid- Capt IPC where officers maxed out).


----------



## ryanvms

Hi, I know this question has probably been asked and answered and i have searched, but I have only found vague references to the answers. Basically, I know you serve deployments of different lengths and there is no way of telling how long they will be, but 
1) what is the amount of time off say per week of deployment? Is there a standard? Or is it just how long your ship is in port. 
2)When your ship is in a Canadian port do you work on base doing shift work or is it like a normal 9-5 job then? If you are working like a 9-5 job what are you doing on base? 
3)When you are deployed do you work every day for the whole deployment or are their days off in that time span? I know it is 5 on 5 off 7 on 7 off thats 80 hours a week, so how is this "compensated" as you are paid on salary? 
Just seems a little fuzzy and i was hoping to clear this up.
Thanks for your time
Ryan


----------



## S McPhee

Well, there are a lot of variables involved with the answers to your questions, but I'll take a crack at it:

1) When you are "deployed" or sailing as I call it, you don't have any days off per se while at sea, but when you are in a foreign port you typically have 75% of the days in port off (or working 1 in 4 as they say.... although I hear we may be changing to only working 1 in 6).

2) When alongside in your home port, generally you would work Mon - Fri from 7:45 to 3:45.  In addition to this, you would be required to do a 24 hour "duty watch" every set amount of days (usually something like every 12th day).  

3)  While sailing, you will not have any days off.  You are compensated by making a fair salary that will also include sea duty allowance and post living differential allowance.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

ryanvms said:
			
		

> Hi, I know this question has probably been asked and answered and i have searched, but I have only found vague references to the answers. Basically, I know you serve deployments of different lengths and there is no way of telling how long they will be, but
> 1) what is the amount of time off say per week of deployment? Is there a standard? Or is it just how long your ship is in port.
> 2)When your ship is in a Canadian port do you work on base doing shift work or is it like a normal 9-5 job then? If you are working like a 9-5 job what are you doing on base?
> 3)When you are deployed do you work every day for the whole deployment or are their days off in that time span? I know it is 5 on 5 off 7 on 7 off thats 80 hours a week, so how is this "compensated" as you are paid on salary?
> Just seems a little fuzzy and i was hoping to clear this up.
> Thanks for your time
> Ryan



I agree with "fear in combat is poison" but I would like to add if you worried about time off during a deployment you will be very miserable and if your worried about compensation for time off then I suggest the Navy may not be a wise career choice for you.


----------



## ryanvms

I woulnt say im "worried" about time off, I wanted to know if you get extra time off after a deployment. And as for pay, im not worried about that either, my point was that you are payed on salary so it seems kind of odd, because one week you could be working 80 hours and another 40....I guess it all averages out in the end.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Depending on how long a deployment is you may be entitled to pre-deployment leave and after you return you are entitled to post deployment leave. Thats in addition to yoour 20-25-30 days of leave of year.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Thats in addition to your 20-25-30 [work] days of leave per year.



Plus statutory holidays, plus special and short leave, plus sliders . . . . the list goes on.

But first, you work when the CF needs you, and some weeks have a lot more than 40 hours in them.  The basic compensation you get is called your pay.


----------



## aesop081

ryanvms said:
			
		

> my point was that you are payed on salary so it seems kind of odd, because one week you could be working 80 hours and another 40....I guess it all averages out in the end.



It seems odd because you are looking at it only from the perspective of an employee on hourly wage. Lots of people in civvie street are paid a fixed salary no matter how many hours they work.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Plus statutory holidays, plus special and short leave, plus sliders . . . . the list goes on.
> 
> But first, you work when the CF needs you, and some weeks have a lot more than 40 hours in them.  The basic compensation you get is called your pay.



And there will be times when your boss will say to bad and not give you the time off...then you deal with it. Time off is a privilege not a right.


----------



## Highlander60

ryanvms said:
			
		

> 3)When you are deployed do you work every day for the whole deployment or are their days off in that time span? I know it is 5 on 5 off 7 on 7 off thats 80 hours a week, so how is this "compensated" as you are paid on salary?



Depends on the deployment and what the Commander decides. In Kandahar, in general, one morning off a week was the standard at one time. Most people just worked 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Being busy passed the time better, and what the heck would you do with time off anyway other than going to the Sat market.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Highlander60 said:
			
		

> Depends on the deployment and what the Commander decides. In Kandahar, in general, one morning off a week was the standard at one time. Most people just worked 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Being busy passed the time better, and what the heck would you do with time off anyway other than going to the Sat market.



Don't forget he is looking for a naval perspective for this from being onboard a ship.


----------



## ryanvms

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It seems odd because you are looking at it only from the perspective of an employee on hourly wage. Lots of people in civvie street are paid a fixed salary no matter how many hours they work.


sorry bout that....im 18...only every worked on hourly so never really looked at it any other way....the whole salary thing is new to me.


----------



## Highlander60

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Don't forget he is looking for a naval perspective for this from being onboard a ship.



Ooops, my bad.


----------



## PMedMoe

Instead of starting a new thread, I figured I'd put this here and hope someone sees it.

I was promoted to A/L Sgt effective (not just seniority date) 01 Jan 07.  I received the substantive on 25 May 07 and qualified for Spec 1 pay.  Does my incentive come into effect on 01 Jan or 25 May?

Edit to add:  Don't ask me what happened last year as it was all back pay.

Just found this but not sure if I understand it properly:



> 204.015(4) (Exception) Qualifying service for pay increments does not include:
> 
> any service prior to the date of a promotion to a higher substantive rank, other than a period of continuous service in an acting rank at the end of which the officer or non-commissioned member is promoted to the same substantive rank



That seems to me that my time in acting rank qualifies.  Or does it since I went to a new pay table (Spec 1)?


----------



## CountDC

I read it the same way - your date remains 1 Jan. As far as I recall spec pay does not have any bearing.


----------



## PMedMoe

CountDC said:
			
		

> I read it the same way - your date remains 1 Jan. As far as I recall spec pay does not have any bearing.



Not according to the pay clerk here.


----------



## CountDC

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Not according to the pay clerk here.



Roger that - haven't directly done pay in the last 2 years so could remember wrong.  Have they given you any refs?  Checking with my contacts and doing a search for refs to see what comes up.


----------



## PMedMoe

CountDC said:
			
		

> Roger that - haven't directly done pay in the last 2 years so could remember wrong.  Have they given you any refs?  Checking with my contacts and doing a search for refs to see what comes up.



I have asked for a ref.  Thanks for the info.


----------



## CountDC

ok - I called that one wrong. If you are able to access:  http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/OSIP_NCM_e.asp?sidesection=3.  Have verified with a contact that is a pay supvr.

5. NCMS IN THE RANK OF LS/CPL PRIOR TO ACHIEVING TRADE QUALIFICATION (OR MS/MCPL, PO2/SGT OR PO1/WO) AS REQUIRED FOR THE SPECIFIC OCCUPATION) INCLUDING:

A. MBRS PROMOTED ACTING LACKING
B. MBRS PROMOTED SUBSTANTIVE, AND
C. MBRS WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY OCCUPATIONAL TRANSFERRED

WILL REMAIN IN THE JUNIOR SUB-DIVISION AT STANDARD TRADE GROUP RATES OF PAY (EXCEPT FLT ENG AND NDT TECH MOCS WHICH WILL BE SPEC1 IN THE JR SUBDIVISION) UNTIL ALL OCCUPATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OCCUPATION ARE SUCCESSFULLY ATTAINED. ONCE OCCUPATIONALLY QUALIFIED, THAT MBR WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE APPLICABLE SUB-DIVISION AND BE REMUNERATED ACCORDINGLY (SPEC 1 OR SPEC 2). THE RATE OF PAY SHALL BE ESTABLISHED AT THE INCENTIVE PAY CATEGORY FOR THE MBR'S RANK, PAY LEVEL AND NEW TRADE GROUP THAT IS NEAREST TO BUT NOT LESS THAN, THE RATE OF PAY THE MBR WAS RECEIVING ON THE DAY IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE MBR'S TRANSFER *FOR THE PURPOSES OF IPC INCREASES, THE IPC ANNIVERSARY DATE SHALL BE THE ACTUAL DATE OF TRANSFER FROM THE STANDARD TRADE GROUP TO THE SPECIALIST TRADE GROUP*


----------



## PMedMoe

Thanks for the info, I kind of figured going from regular pay to Spec had something to do with it.


----------



## Supra

I've seen a few threads that have referenced this one in regards to pay scales, the old guys giving new guys trouble for asking questions then tell them to "go to this thread" and so when someone does that, if you check none of the links in said thread are working so that kind of makes it difficult to not annoy some of you.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

There has been many threads on pay and allowances, and yes some links are out dated thanks to the new look and feel on the DND sites.

So here is (hopefully) the end all link for the pay and allowances questions. Director General Compensation and Benefits click on the appropriate link to answer your question.

_MODS, maybe this response should be stickied and placed in the FAQ section too?_


EDITED TO ADD

WTG in resurrecting a 3 yr old thread.


----------



## George Wallace

There is another Topic that trys to keep the latest link to these.  Unfortunately, the link will change annually with every change in pay rates.

Good luck





PS.  If you wish to volunteer to keep the link to the most recent Pay Scales, your cooperation would be greatly appreciated.  Are you going to remain a member of this site until such time that the CF ceases to give pay raises?


----------



## The_Falcon

Not mention there is also this very nifty site called "google".  Its like using the search function here, but it searchs other websites, based on things called "keywords", its quite ingenious actually.  I typed in "Canadian Forces Pay Scale" and right near the top was this link http://www.forces.ca/html/payscales_en.aspx to what appears to be an official government site (that is probably kept updated regularly), plus it has some nifty little colourful graphs. >


----------



## doucet89

The CF is also currently very desperate for engineers as well


----------



## Fishbone Jones

doucet89 said:
			
		

> The CF is also currently very desperate for engineers as well



You may want to qualify that a bit more. Combat engineers, structural, airfield, flight or P.Eng? 

(Actually, it's likely all of them)


----------



## Nfld Sapper

doucet89 said:
			
		

> The CF is also currently very desperate for engineers as well



WTG 5yr old necro post.


----------



## Antoine

Healthy companies are ready to put big money on the table to hire a qualify individual if needed. Nothing new. We call that salary negotiation as you all know. 

A smart and talented young blood with or without an university degree will make good money by managing human knowledge or work force. If the CF is looking for this kind of guy, it is going to be difficult based on the CF pay scale.

For officers: Is young engineers, lawyers, scientists, accountants and etc... making 50 000$ and more? I don't think it is common outside dad's network or due to a specific need in the market. However, if you attract these young sharks by the money, well as soon as they have some professional experiences under their belts, if only money motivate them, they are going to learn salary negotiation and they might switch for the private sector quickly.

Medical doctors, dentist and nurses are in position to ask for good money because USA is next door and ready to give them a lot of money, because in Canada we are short of health care workers, because our population is getting older, because the type of personality we are recruiting (?) and many more reasons. Yup, you payed already a lot by your taxes for their education. But that is another topic.

Thus, by recruiting specific trades (others than the semiprivate one such as MD and nurses) only on the money, I think that it is a lost battle on the long run. In addition, I wonder how does CF members of other trades feel about it?

Honestly, the salary offered by the CF is not great for the level of commitment and responsibility that is expecting regardless of the trade. So probably many candidates join for other reason but I think the CF pay scale should be seriously increased for all trades. 

I am not pretending anything original in my post, it is only my opinion and it has been said many times before me. I am not a human ressources expert, neither I have an MBA or other related qualification. So here I was throwing my  :2c: and some food for thought.


----------



## jp86

Antoine said:
			
		

> However, if you attract these young sharks by the money, well as soon as they have some professional experiences under their belts, if only money motivate them, they are going to learn salary negotiation and they might switch for the private sector quickly.



People with extensive educational credentials - like doctors, dentists, nurses, engineers, etc. - may also have significant debt from student loans.  If you're paying $15,000 a year on your student loans, it's pretty hard to raise a family on a 2Lt's salary.


----------



## Antoine

I agree on the debt, but graduates with Master or PhD in Sciences and Arts might also carried huge debt.

In an ideal world, it might be better for example to higher the salary of all officer trades instead of giving bonus to some trades. If team spirit is critical, can it be weakened by money issues between people of same rank but different trades? Do you motivate some to join and stay but others to leave? I don't know the answer, it might have been studied by the CF.

If some one is working in human ressources, I'll be curious to know his/her advice on this. 

Hire people for trade in demand only by money incentive may not attract candidates that are going to stay in the CF for too long. But yes, many trades and ranks should be better paid. And it still my  :2c:


----------



## George Wallace

CAUTION

Pay Scales subject to change annually........or without warning.


CF Programs and Services




Current pay rates (2008-2009) are here http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/index-eng.asp

Reserve NCM Class A or B

Regular Force and Reserve Class C NCM Rates

Reserve Class A and Class B Officer Rates 

Regular Force and Reserve Class C Officer Rates


----------



## Dariusz

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I was going to say "Simply look up at the bottom what Letter matches your Plan" but it looks like someone in Recruiting or with access to DAODs will have to answer as these are the current programs/plans listed:
> 
> A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
> B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
> C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
> D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
> E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)
> 
> Once you find out what corresponding Letter your Plan is listed as, just apply it to the OCdt and later the Pilot charts.



What category would be CEOTP? When I asked at the CFRC regarding CEOTP payscale(A-E) after promotion to 2Lt, I was advised that they only knew the payscale for OCdt(A-B) and that I would have to complete my basic to find out!?!
Does anyone have any specific knowledge regarding this issue?
Any input is greatly appreciated!

Cheers

Dariusz


----------



## Adamant

CEOTP falls under Cat B.  Officer Cadet - No Former Service

Just confirmed with the CEOTP 2Lt sitting about 2 feet to my right


----------



## PuckChaser

While we're in the quoting necropost mojo...



			
				gryphon664 said:
			
		

> Yeah.. comms.. i think that if your already a qualified sig op, then they give you a 40 000$ bonus..
> 
> maybe someone can confirm this tho



Signing bonus for qualified SigOps on component transfer is $20,000. $10,000 when you sign, and another $10,000 on the 1st anniversary of you signing (to prevent a big tax hit).


----------



## nickinguelph

Hi, I am loaded into the Aug 31 BMOQ, going Reg Force, DEO Log-O, just curious where DEO stands for OCdt, is it Level A or B.  I am married, with a son and own a home.
I don t particularly care which, just would make it easier for budgeting between now and then.  Thanks for the info and help!  Cheers!


----------



## JBoyd

Current Pay Scales for RegF Officers

http://www.forces.ca/media/_PDF/PayScalesOffReg_en.pdf

Includes both RMC and DEO Salaries


----------



## Occam

nickinguelph said:
			
		

> Hi, I am loaded into the Aug 31 BMOQ, going Reg Force, DEO Log-O, just curious where DEO stands for OCdt, is it Level A or B.



Neither, if I'm reading the CBI correctly.

See http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/doc/204-02.pdf

You're looking for CBI 204.211(9), "Rate of pay – DEO".  If I haven't misread it, an OCdt under DEO gets paid in accordance with 'pay level C of Table "B"' in the CBI.

Table B, pay level C would be $3537 monthly, initially.  You always need to go to the CBI to figure out where you fit on the tables.

I think I read it properly, but if I didn't, someone more educated in the ways of pay will be along to correct me.  It wouldn't hurt you to confirm it with a Recruiting Centre.


----------



## oldandgrey

"CEOTP falls under Cat B.  Officer Cadet - No Former Service"

to add more to the above statement, members from the ranks or officer (who switch over to CEOTP, very few in between) the pay scale is under Cat D....same as an UT payscale, as stated in my msg.


----------



## AEC@34

I am also not clear about pay for Officers under DEO, is it 49000 (in pdf file posted by Jboyd) or 42444(3500 monthly in file/link posted by occam).


----------



## JBoyd

Zahoor said:
			
		

> I am also not clear about pay for Officers under DEO, is it 49000 (in pdf file posted by Jboyd) or 42444(3500 monthly in file/link posted by occam).



I believe what Occam posted was the rate of pay for RegF & ResF on class 'C' Reserve service. What I posted was the RegF Officer rate of pay from the recruiting website.


----------



## Occam

Zahoor said:
			
		

> I am also not clear about pay for Officers under DEO, is it 49000 (in pdf file posted by Jboyd) or 42444(3500 monthly in file/link posted by occam).



I can't explain the discrepancy.  For some strange reason, they've quoted the salary for a 2Lt two pay increments above basic, but I can't see any reason why a DEO 2Lt wouldn't start at Basic pay increment.

I would check with a recruiting centre if I were you.  As I said before, I don't work in Pay, but I do know with 100% certainty that the Compensation and Benefit Instructions would take precedence over a PDF file that the recruiting people generated.


----------



## romeokilo

Can someone please explain the DEO section of the Officers' pay table to me? It has increasing numbers from left to right, and some of those numbers for 2Lt are higher than those for Lt. What does that mean?


----------



## Occam

romeokilo said:
			
		

> Can someone please explain the DEO section of the Officers' pay table to me? It has increasing numbers from left to right, and some of those numbers for 2Lt are higher than those for Lt. What does that mean?



Normally, every year as a 2Lt you increase one pay increment until you're promoted.  You would then enter the Lt pay scale at the nearest pay level to what you were making as a 2Lt.  In other words, you never lose pay due to a promotion.  The increments are simply annual increases in your pay rate within your range of pay for rank.


----------



## George Wallace

Two Answers for you guys:

1.  DEO 2LTs come in at a higher rate of pay, as they are usually more trained than those entering under other Officer Entry Plans.  That is, they usually have paid for their Degree/Certificate/Education out of their own pockets and are entering the CF with some skills vis the person entering under another Plan and having the CF then pay for them to gain those skills.

2.  A 2LT reaching a Pay Level, like a Cpl reaching a certain Pay Level, will upon promotion to LT, like the Cpl to MCpl, go into the same Pay Level.  For example a 2LT getting paid Lvl 3 will upon promotion be paid LT Lvl 3.  In some cases you will see that the LT Lvl 1 will be less than 2LT Lvl 3, as you may notice when looking at all of the other ranks Pay Scales.


----------



## AEC@34

Just for curiosity, i am not sure if this is right place for this question.
If you start as DEO, you will be promoted automatically to Lt (after year 1), Capt (after 3 years) or it would be based on performance rather than time. NO question after Cap promotion would depend on performance, courses completed etc thanks


----------



## gcclarke

Zahoor said:
			
		

> Just for curiosity, i am not sure if this is right place for this question.
> If you start as DEO, you will be promoted automatically to Lt (after year 1), Capt (after 3 years) or it would be based on performance rather than time. NO question after Cap promotion would depend on performance, courses completed etc thanks



The 1 year and 3 year commissioned service requirements are cross-CF requirements. 

Promotion to Lt or SLt is typically a combination of the time in requirement, and completion of some courses. Which courses are required vary by trade. For example, MARS A/SLts require completion of MARS IV and having been granted Officer-of-the-Day qualification aboard a class of HMC Ships. For Naval Engineers (Both Marine System and Combat System varieties) on the other hand require completion of their Naval Engineering Indoctrination course.

Promotion to Captain or Lt(N) is, in addition to the 3 years commissioned service, also dependent upon becoming trade qualified, the specific requirements of which vary by trade. 

So, to answer what may be your main question, the requirements for promotion are exactly the same for all officers within a trade, irrespective of their entry plan. Promotion up to the point of Capt / Lt(N) is based upon qualifications earned (either through courses, or sitting boards) and time, further promotion introduces the component of merit listing, whereby only a certain number of people are promoted per year, and all those eligible are ranked, with the promotions being offered to the top X number of people.


----------



## heavy reader

Here's one for this group.

I am on TD all of the time.  When I get "reimbursed" for the TD costs (hotels, meals, rentals etc), this all shows up on my T4 at year's end as income.

So all of this money that I was reimbursed (out of pocket), I get taxed on, and probably loose about 40% to the tax man.

How (or can) I claim this at tax time, so that I don't get nuked every year?


----------



## George Wallace

heavy reader said:
			
		

> Here's one for this group.
> 
> I am on TD all of the time.  When I get "reimbursed" for the TD costs (hotels, meals, rentals etc), this all shows up on my T4 at year's end as income.
> 
> So all of this money that I was reimbursed (out of pocket), I get taxed on, and probably loose about 40% to the tax man.
> 
> How (or can) I claim this at tax time, so that I don't get nuked every year?



You can go to your OR and have them deduct a higher rate of taxes from your pay.  That should do it, or at the very least cut the taxes due down to a more reasonable amount.  If you are married, have them reset your deductions to those of a single member.


----------



## SupersonicMax

TD should not be taxed.  It may appear on your T4 as a non-taxable allowances.


----------



## Occam

A friend recently received a sizable amount of back pay, spanning a three year period.  Well into five figures.  

Since the back pay was actually earned in previous taxation years, is there any way to retroactively distribute the back pay over those years for income tax purposes, rather than get dinged on the whole thing (at a higher tax rate) in the 2009 tax year?


----------



## PMedMoe

When I got my back pay (one and a half years) last year, it was taxed at the CWO rate so that I wasn't dinged with paying back taxes.  As a matter of fact, I got a return this year.  ;D


----------



## Occam

Well, that prevents you from owing money at the end of the year but you end up paying the same amount of tax either way - you're just tweaking when the tax actually gets paid.  

Given that Federal tax rates are:

 15% on the first $38,832 of taxable income, +
 22% on the next $38,832 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $38,832 and $77,664), +
 26% on the next $48,600 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $77,664 and $126,264)

What I'm wondering is if there is a way for the pay people to do something like go back and reissue T4s with the applicable increases for each year, and then recalculate income tax for each year - which would probably result in three years where the income would remain below $77,664 (which is the limit of the 22% rate scale).  That would certainly mean paying less taxes than having the lump sum reported in 2009, which would push income into the $77,664 to $126,264 tax bracket and have the bulk of the back pay taxed at 26% (for Federal tax, anyways).

What I don't know is:  Can you do that, or something that achieves the same result?


----------



## kratz

The pay office is compelled to follow CRA guidelines as any other business. This means they can not change previous years' T4s if the backpay (lump-sum) was paid in 2009. The general rule is the amout of backpay (lump-sum) is taxed in the year it is paid to the individual (ref CRA Lump-Sum payments).


----------



## Occam

kratz said:
			
		

> The pay office is compelled to follow CRA guidelines as any other business. This means they can not change previous years' T4s if the backpay (lump-sum) was paid in 2009. The general rule is the amout of backpay (lump-sum) is taxed in the year it is paid to the individual (ref CRA Lump-Sum payments).



Thanks a point in the right direction, kratz.  That clears things up a little, although I'm not sure if the circumstances of the back pay fit into the definition of a lump-sum payment ("from pensions and deferred profit sharing plans").  If it is indeed a lump-sum payment, then it looks like one of the forms at the link you posted might be useful - http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t1198/t1198-08e.pdf.  It appears that form allows you to get amounts taxed as if they were actually paid in previous years.

I think the individual in question will have to make a call to CRA to find out the status of the back pay.


----------



## dapaterson

Pay is taxed in your hands when received, not when earned.  The income tax act is unfortunately quite clear on this matter.

See, for example, 



> Subdivision a
> Income or Loss from an Office or Employment
> Basic Rules
> 
> Income from office or employment
> 
> 5. (1) Subject to this Part, a taxpayer’s income for a taxation year from an office or employment is the salary, wages and other remuneration, including gratuities, received by the taxpayer in the year.



Key word is received, not earned.


----------



## Occam

That looks pretty cut and dry, dapaterson...thanks.  

Any thoughts on the applicability of the T1198 form for this situation?


----------



## dapaterson

T1198 probably does not apply (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t1198/t1198-08e.pdf), unless the conditions below are met:



> What is a qualifying retroactive lump-sum payment (QRLSP)?
> A QRLSP is a lump-sum payment paid to an individual (other than a trust) in a year that relates to one or
> more previous years throughout which the individual was a resident of Canada. The lump-sum payment
> must have been paid after 1994 from one of the following sources:
>   income from an office or employment received under:
> - judgment from a court or other competent tribunal;
> - an arbitration award; or
> - a lawsuit settlement agreement (including damages for loss of office or employment);
>   benefits from Unemployment Insurance or Employment Insurance;
>   benefits from a superannuation or pension plan (other than non-periodic benefits such as lump-sum
> withdrawals);
>   spousal, common-law partner or taxable child support payments; or
>   benefits from a wage-loss replacement plan.


----------



## nerdgirl

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It seems odd because you are looking at it only from the perspective of an employee on hourly wage. Lots of people in civvie street are paid a fixed salary no matter how many hours they work.



Especially management-level jobs. Usually they get compensated with a sort of extra holiday weeks per year that workers others don't get (because they are entitled to overtime, etc.)


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Keep in mind here though a 60-80 hour work week may seem a little over the top, remember where you are: out in the middle of the ocean and you can only work out, read and watch movies for so long. After 26+years, I think it safe to say that a 10-12 hour day is typical; anything less is 'slow' and boring!!!

As for the work day alongside, keep in mind that the ship needs to be 'fixed' after periods at sea. As well, general husbandry is a definitive daily requirement from general cleaning to painting. Finally, we are ALWAYS training so there is someone somewhere on a ship at any given time getting some sort of tutoring.

It's fun - I have been oft asked what I would change if I had it all to do again and call me corny but I cannot think of anything over dramatic that I would change. Long days, long deployments, lots of bitching and I am still having fun!


----------



## Wilshire Blvd.

I know this can vary from year-to-year, but how many months per year/weeks per month are ships typically deployed?


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

You have your answer right in your question...it varies all the time. Depends on how much money is available, manpower etc etc etc


----------



## gcclarke

It varies from time to time, and it varies from ship to ship. In any given year, some ships will be going into drydock, so won't be sailing for quite a while, some ships will be getting out of drydock and will be ramping up, some ships will have finished ramping up, and will be high readiness, and likely be headed on some sort of tasking that requires a high-readiness ship (Such as a gulf deployment), and some ships may be shifting down from high readiness to standard readiness, and will be spending most of their sea time doing things like fisheries patrols. 

In general, 1 - 2 ships per coast are typically sent on a 6 month deployment. If you're hoping to avoid said deployment, you might get lucky. If you're hoping to go on said deployment, well, try to tailor the ships that you're asking to be posted to based upon the OPSCHED of the ships in the fleet. Keep in mind for either case that you might just not get what you want.

Also, this will very likely change soon when the frigates come due for their mid-life refits. The number of ships we have available to send elsewhere will greatly decrease for a number of years.


----------



## high_octane

I received a 6 figure retro pay spanning 5 years and had the tax adjusted retroactively using the T1198

This spread the income over a much lower tax bracket, but my RRSP limit was still calculated as if I received it all in 1 year


----------



## RhumRunner

My last sea posting:

1st year - deployed 1 month.

2nd year - deployed 7 months.

3rd year - deploed 9 1/2 months.


----------



## Pusser

Under normal circumstances, taxes are paid on income for the year in which it was received.  However, under certain circumstances, CRA will re-open your tax files and reassess your taxes for those years, thus not dinging you in a much higher tax bracket for the year you received it.  Please note though that the Pay Office can't help you with this.  You need to write a letter to CRA explaining the circumstances.


----------



## Grunt_031

This may affect a few people on this forum.

CANFORGEN 159/09 201743Z AUG 09
TAX RELIEF ISSUES
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. CANFORGEN 117/08 
B. CFAO 203-3 
C. SUPERVISORS AIDE: OVERPAYMENTS AND RECOVERIES - EXTENSION AUTHORITY 



SECTION ONE - TAX RELIEF CORRECTIONS. IN 2007, CANADA REVENUE AGENCY (CRA) PROVIDED A CLARIFICATION TO DND ON THE SUBJECT OF TAX RELIEF FOR DEPLOYED MEMBERS. AS A RESULT OF THIS CLARIFICATION, CORRECTIONS WERE PROCESSED FOR MEMBERS WHO HAD BEEN GRANTED TAX RELIEF FOR THE 2007 TAX YEAR. THE CORRECTIONS REFLECTED CRA POLICY THAT THE TAX DEDUCTION AMOUNT RECORDED ON A MEMBER S T4 SLIP MUST CORRESPOND TO THE TAX YEAR THAT THE MEMBER WAS ON THE MISSION, AND NOT THE TAX YEAR THAT TAX RELIEF COMMENCED IN CCPS. THE DETAILS OF THE CORRECTIONS WERE RELEASED AT REF A. THE MESSAGE DIRECTED UNITS TO MAINTAIN RECORDS IN DEBIT BALANCE FOR THOSE MEMBERS WHOSE T4 S WERE BEING AMENDED, AND TO RECOVER DEBIT BALANCES FROM THOSE NO LONGER ENTITLED TO TAX RELIEF FOR RETROACTIVE PAYMENTS APPROVED AND INPUT INTO CCPS AFTER THE MEMBER S DEPARTURE FROM THEATRE 


ALSO INCLUDED AT REF A, WAS INFORMATION REGARDING THE PROCESSING OF AMENDED T4 SLIPS BY CRA. TO DATE, CRA HAS NOT PROCESSED, AS A PROJECT, THE AMENDED ELECTRONIC SLIPS SUBMITTED BY DND AND ARE UNLIKELY TO DO SO IN THE NEAR FUTURE. TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF DEBIT BALANCES FOR SERVING MEMBERS, DMPAP WILL PROVIDE AMENDED T4 S DIRECTLY TO AFFECTED MEMBERS. A COVERING LETTER WILL BE PROVIDED ALONG WITH INSTRUCTIONS REGARDING HOW TO SUBMIT THE T4 FOR REASSESSMENT. A LIST WAS PROVIDED TO EACH PAY OFFICE IDENTIFYING MEMBERS WHO MAY EXPECT TO RECEIVE AN AMENDED T4. IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT MEMBERS WHO FILE THEIR TAXES ELECTRONICALLY WITH CRA CAN REQUEST A REASSESSMENT ON LINE, INSTEAD OF WAITING FOR DMPAP TO ISSUE AN AMENDED T4 


MEMBERS WHOSE ACCOUNTS WERE DEBITED AS THE RESULT OF THE NON-ENTITLEMENT TO TAX RELIEF ON BACK PAYMENTS SHOULD ALREADY HAVE PAID BACK THE DEBIT. UNITS THAT HAVE NOT YET COMMENCED RECOVERY ACTION ON THESE MEMBERS WILL COMMENCE RECOVERY ACTION ON RECEIPT OF THIS MESSAGE. PROCEDURES FOR APPROVAL OF EXTENDED RECOVERIES ARE DETAILED AT REFS B AND C 


SECTION TWO - ADMIN DELAY - IMPACT ON TAX RELIEF. CRA S CURRENT POLICY ON TAX RELIEF HAS THREE MAIN CONDITIONS: 


MEMBERS MUST ACTUALLY BE IN TAX RELIEF STATUS (I.E. DEPLOYED WITH ELIGIBLE OPERATIONS) IN ORDER TO BE ENTITLED TO THE TAX DEDUCTION 


THE TAX DEDUCTION MUST APPEAR ON THE T4 OF THE YEAR FOR WHICH THE MEMBER WAS IN THEATRE, NOT WHEN IT WAS APPROVED IN CCPS AND 


RETROACTIVE BENEFITS GRANTED AND PROCESSED AFTER THE MEMBERS TOUR ENDS (SUCH AS RETROACTIVE PAY INCREASES) ARE NOT SUBJECT TO TAX RELIEF AS THE ENTITLEMENT DID NOT EXIST WHILE MEMBER WAS IN TAX RELIEF STATUS 


WHILE THE CRA CLARIFICATION IS VERY LIMITING, DND HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN OBTAINING RECOGNITION OF THE DIFFICULTY IN COMPLETING ALL ADMIN WHILE THE MEMBER IS ACTUALLY IN THEATRE. THIS RECOGNITION WILL PROVIDE DND SOME LEEWAY IN PROCESSING BENEFITS WITHIN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME. THIS WILL ALSO ENSURE THAT MEMBERS ARE NOT DENIED THEIR ENTITLEMENTS SOLELY DUE TO ADMIN DELAY. AS AN EXAMPLE, A MEMBER WHO WAS PROMOTED WHILE SO EMPLOYED WHILE ON DEPLOYMENT WOULD BE ENTITLED TO A TAX DEDUCTION ON THAT SALARY (SUBJECT TO THE MONTHLY CAP) EVEN IF THE PROMOTION COULD NOT BE ACTIONED IN HRMS UNTIL AFTER THE MEMBER S DEPARTURE FROM THEATRE. HOWEVER A MEMBER WHO, WHILE IN THEATRE, FILLED A HIGHER RANK POSITION IN HIS OR HER NORMAL RANK AND WHO, AFTER DEPARTURE FROM THEATRE, WAS RETROACTIVELY GRANTED THE ACTING PAY OF THAT HIGHER RANK, WOULD NOT BE ENTITLED TO A TAX DEDUCTION ON THE BACKPAY. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO CASES RESTS ON THE FACT THAT IN THE FIRST CASE THE ENTITLEMENT WAS APPROVED WHILE IN TAX RELIEF STATUS AND THE DELAY WAS ADMIN IN NATURE. IN THE SECOND CASE, THE RAISE WAS APPROVED AT A TIME WHEN THE MEMBER WAS NOT IN TAX RELIEF STATUS, THEREFORE AN ENTITLEMENT TO THE TAX DEDUCTION DOES NOT EXIST 


THE DECISION TO GRANT THE TAX DEDUCTION DESPITE AN ADMIN DELAY WILL BE ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS. AS SUCH, CCPS WILL NOT BE REPROGRAMMED TO AUTOMATICALLY PROCESS THE NECESSARY TRANSACTIONS. WHEN A UNIT BELIEVES AN ENTITLEMENT EXISTS, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES SHALL BE FOLLOWED BY THE ACCOUNTING OFFICER: 


AN OBSERVATION WILL BE RAISED TO THE APPROPRIATE REGIONAL HELP DESK AT DMPAP 


AN EXPLANATION DETAILING THE DELAY IN PROCESSING THE ENTITLEMENT WILL BE PROVIDED AND 


SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION CONFIRMING THAT THE ENTITLEMENT WAS KNOWN WHILE THE MEMBER WAS IN TAX RELIEF STATUS WILL BE ATTACHED OR FAXED 


ONCE DMPAP HAS VERIFIED THAT AN ENTITLEMENT TO A TAX DEDUCTION EXISTS, CORRECTIVE ACTION WILL BE TAKEN IN CCPS. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT CORRECTIVE ACTION WILL BE LIMITED TO ENSURING THAT THE TAX DEDUCTION AMOUNT WILL BE REFLECTED ON MBR S T4. DMPAP WILL NOT CREDIT TAXES FOR SUCH CASES THROUGH THE MEMBER S PAY ACCOUNT. CRA/RQ WILL REIMBURSE THE MEMBER WHEN THE ANNUAL TAX RETURN IS PROCESSED, PROVIDING THAT THE MEMBER DOES NOT OWE CRA/RQ FOR OTHER REASONS. WHEN AN ADMIN DELAY RESULTS IN A CORRECTIVE ACTION BEING TAKEN IN A TAX YEAR DIFFERENT FROM THE ORIGINAL ENTITLEMENT, THE TAX DEDUCTION AMOUNT WILL APPEAR ON THE T4/R1 OF THE YEAR THE CORRECTIVE ACTION IS TAKEN. THIS IS THE ONLY EXCEPTION TO THE RULE REQUIRING THAT THE TAX DEDUCTION BE APPLIED TO THE YEAR WHEN THE MEMBER IS IN A TAX RELIEF SITUATION 


SECTION THREE - TAX RELIEF ON POSTING ALLOWANCE. FROM TIME TO TIME MEMBERS POSTED DURING THEIR TOUR WILL ACTUALLY MOVE THEIR FAMILIES WHILE STILL DEPLOYED. IN SUCH A CASE, THERE MAY BE AN ENTITLEMENT TO A TAX DEDUCTION ON A PORTION OF THE MEMBER S POSTING ALLOWANCE. IN THIS CASE, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES SHALL BE FOLLOWED: 


THE ACCOUNTING OFFICER WILL RAISE AN OBSERVATION TO THE APPROPRIATE REGIONAL HELP DESK AT DMPAP 


DMPAP WILL PROVIDE THE UNIT WITH THE AMOUNT OF ROOM AVAILABLE UNDER THE MEMBER S MONTHLY CAP 


THE ACCOUNTING OFFICER WILL PROVIDE THE INFORMATION TO THE MEMBER AND 


THE MEMBER WILL FORWARD THE INFORMATION TO IRP FOR INCLUSION ON THE T4/RELEVE 1 ISSUED BY THAT ORGANIZATION. THE TAX DEDUCTION WILL NOT BE REIMBURSED BY IRP 


THE NUMBER OF MEMBERS AFFECTED BY THE LATTER SITUATION WILL BE RELATIVELY SMALL. FIRST, MOST MEMBERS USE THEIR POSTING ALLOWANCE FOR INTEREST BUYDOWN PURPOSE, WHICH MEANS THE AMOUNT IS ALREADY TAX EXEMPT. SECOND, IT ONLY APPLIES TO THE PORTION OF THE ALLOWANCE THAT IS UNDER THE MONTHLY CAP, SO A MEMBER WHOSE TOTAL PAY AND TAXABLE ALLOWANCES EXCEED THE SALARY OF A CF CWO WILL NOT HAVE ROOM LEFT AGAINST WHICH TO APPLY THE TAX DEDUCTION 


QUESTIONS REGARDING THE ABOVE MENTIONED DIRECTIVES MAY BE ADDRESSED TO DMPAP MIL PAY REGIONAL HELP DESKS, BY PAY OFFICES


----------



## GAP

So.....some will get some money back, and some will have to pay extra to correct this error.... this will probably have some pretty heavy implications for some...


----------



## c_canuk

Ive read this a few times and I'm still having trouble absorbing the info...



> MEMBERS MUST ACTUALLY BE IN TAX RELIEF STATUS (I.E. DEPLOYED WITH ELIGIBLE OPERATIONS) IN ORDER TO BE ENTITLED TO THE TAX DEDUCTION



OK, so first a no brain-er, you can't be given the tax relief status for being deployed unless you are deployed.




> THE TAX DEDUCTION MUST APPEAR ON THE T4 OF THE YEAR FOR WHICH THE MEMBER WAS IN THEATRE, NOT WHEN IT WAS APPROVED IN CCPS AND



Again, a no brain-er, the tax relief goes on the T4 of the year you received it




> RETROACTIVE BENEFITS GRANTED AND PROCESSED AFTER THE MEMBERS TOUR ENDS (SUCH AS RETROACTIVE PAY INCREASES) ARE NOT SUBJECT TO TAX RELIEF AS THE ENTITLEMENT DID NOT EXIST WHILE MEMBER WAS IN TAX RELIEF STATUS



so assuming one was on a mission from April to October, a raise gets approved for April, but it doesn't get actioned until December; are they claiming that although it was approved by the treasury board before April during your mission, because it wasn't applied while in theater you still pay full tax on your retro?

not that it's a whole lot I suppose but it still confuses me because they don't specify who's approval is required to show that you have entitlement to tax relief.


----------



## CountDC

c_canuk said:
			
		

> so assuming one was on a mission from April to October, a raise gets approved for April, but it doesn't get actioned until December; are they claiming that although it was approved by the treasury board before April during your mission, because it wasn't applied while in theater you still pay full tax on your retro?



Depends on why it wasn't applied until Dec.  If it was actually approved prior or while you were in theatre and not actioned due to an admin delay then it could qualify for tax relief.  If it was approved in Nov with an effective date of 1 Apr then you will pay full tax.  The approval for tax relief is them - CRA.


----------



## cook647

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Not mention there is also this very nifty site called "google".  Its like using the search function here, but it searchs other websites, based on things called "keywords", its quite ingenious actually.  I typed in "Canadian Forces Pay Scale" and right near the top was this link http://www.forces.ca/html/payscales_en.aspx to what appears to be an official government site (that is probably kept updated regularly), plus it has some nifty little colourful graphs. >



I'm sorry Hatchet Man, but that quote kind of got under my skin.  I happened to be looking for the various IPC levels on a pay scale.  I googled pay scales 2009, and got the link your referencing.  Unfortunately, the link your referencing does not have what I wanted to find.  Incidentally, your referenced link has nothing to do with either DEO officers (which is what one of the members was looking for), or IPC levels.  Your condescending attitude is offensive, and perhaps you should do a little more reading into the information which is actually contained in the links you provide, so that you actually answer a relevant question accurately and politely.


----------



## Michael OLeary

cook647, time to cool your jets.  You'll need to learn that if you don't like someone's posting style, it may be best to ignore them.  Debate facts, point out that what he indicated didn't answer the question and move on. If you choose to debate people on their posting styles and attitudes you will end up locking horns with those who enjoy creating train wrecks just to be assholes about it and to spur your greater indignation. And that only wastes your time and energy, and leaves messes for the staff here to clean up.


----------



## Robodad

kaspacanada said:
			
		

> Last I saw, in the reg force you didn‘t get a hook until you‘d had a year after being trained.  The reserves work differently, or at least all the units I worked with and have seen did.


I checked the CFAOs 49-4 for Reg Force:  30 months qualifying time (needs QL 3)

CFAO 49-5 for Res Force:  a.    successful completion of General Military Training (GMT) (Recruit and Basic);   b.  successful completion of QL1 training as defined by CHQ; and   c.   attainment of six months service.


----------



## rayduran

Do the recruitment allowances for much needed trades change as they come and so is there a list put out every month or when needed?

Regardless, I would like to know if the RegF Air Force is in desperate need of RMS Clerks.
I am a QL3 qualified one who has already VR'd with previous reserve experience.
I have been out of the service for 2 years now.
I read through CBI 205.525
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/205-eng.asp
Which explains this, but I don't know if RMS is needed that badly in RegF Air Force...
the allowance is very nice...

Does anyone know if I would be eligible? 

Thanks.


----------



## PMedMoe

IIRC, a CANFORGEN comes out, dictating what trades have a recruiting allowance and what the qualifications are to receive it.  Yes, the CF needs RMS clerks but there is no recruiting allowance for them.

You _might_ get your BMQ and QL3 written off, but speak to a recruiter at a CFRC and I'm sure they'd be able to tell you more.


----------



## rayduran

However, if the CF needs them and according to the CBI stated, I am skilled and I would be eligible...
As for the QL3 and BMQ - CFRC said they would have to wait until a PLAR is done and Ottawa has the final say in that.


----------



## PMedMoe

rayduran said:
			
		

> However, if the CF needs them and according to the CBI stated, I am skilled and I would be eligible..



_Only_ if RMS Clerk was listed as an understrength trade.  Not to mention, each one has specific requirements.  *For example only*, you might only be eligible for an allowance if you are QL5 qualified.  The CBI also states:



> the non-commissioned member must have previously served in the Canadian Forces, *but not have served in the Regular Force at any time during the three-year period prior to the date of enrolment or transfer*



So if you got out two years ago, you wouldn't qualify.  (Edit to add:  My mistake, I missed the Reserve part of the first post).

Seriously, don't read so much into the CBI.  I doubt that RMS will get a recruiting allowance any time soon.


----------



## Roy Harding

A former RMS Clk should know not to try twisting regulations to suit themselves.

I rather doubt (although I am not in a position to KNOW) the CF is paying any kind of bonus for RMS Clks.

You state you have previous Reserve experience, and accomplished your QL3.  That's good, and it'll hold you in good stead, but it is a VERY basic qualification.  It enables you to know what  CBIs, DAODs, CFAOs, QR&Os, and other publications ARE, and how to look things up in them - period.

As a retired RMS Clk, I notice when the abbreviation "RMS" is mentioned.  Consequently, I've read a few of your posts over the past few minutes.  You seem to be fixated on the idea of being an "Air Force" RMS Clk.  Disabuse yourself of this notion.  RMS is a "purple" trade - you're liable to serve in all three elements.

This is not to say you may not serve exclusively in the Air Force - I know some that have.  Personally, I spent my entire career with field units - with the exception of one two year posting to an Air Force Squadron, and one 2 year posting to a HQ (although that time included a fairly lengthy deployment to Bosnia, so I sometimes refer to it as a year long posting).  And that was what I wanted.

I was lucky in my choices and my time of service.  At the time I served, RMS Clks who WANTED to serve in field units were fairly rare - so the Career Manager was usually able to acquiesce to my desires.  Such wasn't (and imagine still isn't) always the case for those desiring Air Force or static postings.

Many of your questions (here and on other threads) can only be answered by a CFRC.  Go to one.  Let us know how you make out.  

Oh - and READ a lot more here, try the search function - which can be accessed here: http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php?action=search .  The "Search Box" at the top of your screen will search ONLY the thread you are currently in.


----------



## rayduran

Thank you, I'll keep you informed on what happens.


----------



## skeadboy

is there a singing bonus for regulair forces???


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Singing isn't allowed.

Skeadboy, welcome to army.ca. We highly encourage the use of proper writing skills as well as a little more "meat" to your questions. [ie. trade, your skillset, etc.]

Bruce
Staff


----------



## dapaterson

Actually, rumour has it the music branch may now recruit singers as well as musicians.  To my knowledge, though, there are no signing bonuses for singing.

However, some messes do have karaoke nights.


----------



## gcclarke

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Actually, rumour has it the music branch may now recruit singers as well as musicians.  To my knowledge, though, there are no signing bonuses for singing.
> 
> However, some messes do have karaoke nights.



And Rock Band competitions! 

...

As long as I don't get stuck on the drums.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

:rofl:

Oh, I needed that laugh.


----------



## TcDohl

Also, I'm nose-deep in student debt, and the former bonus of $40k would greatly help. I've seen what student debts can do to someone (my sis pays $850/month, interest only), and I'm debating whether or not to delay my application a year so I'd get the bonus, so that's definitely a factor as well. I'm planning on staying with the Navy for something like 10 years anyway, so what's another year if I could squash my student loan problem within the first year or so of that time instead of paying off the student loan for all of those 10 years. 

In this page 
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfor-ofr-eng.asp 
I'd like to be clarified what pay increment levels basic, 1-10 mean. How does one get paid more than a other people in the same entry plan and rank? I am confuse.


----------



## PMedMoe

TcDohl said:
			
		

> In this page
> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfor-ofr-eng.asp
> I'd like to be clarified what pay increment levels basic, 1-10 mean. How does one get paid more than a other people in the same entry plan and rank? I am confuse.



Each increment is a year in rank.  First year:  Basic, second year:  Pay level 1 and so on.  If you get to the last increment of a pay level and are not promoted, you stay at the same pay level until you get promoted (or we get a raise economic adjustment).

Not sure what trade you're going for or why waiting a year would get you a signing bonus.  If it's not offered now, it may not be offered next year, either.  However, SISIP has some great loan plans at very low interest rates.


----------



## TcDohl

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Not sure what trade you're going for or why waiting a year would get you a signing bonus.  If it's not offered now, it may not be offered next year, either.  However, SISIP has some great loan plans at very low interest rates.



Engineering, either one of the Navy's engie MOCs. I have heard around here that it may come back in 2011. Logical, since that's about the time that the Navy gets their centennial monies.


----------



## dapaterson

Recruiting bonuses are offered when the CDS designates trades as sufficiently understrength that incentives are needed to close the gap.

"Centennial monies" have nothing to do with it - the Navy does not pay recruiting incentives fro mtheir funds; they come from central CF funds, managed by the Chief of Military Personnel.

Incentives will only come back if the occupational strength dips significantly below PML again.  Counting on that is a crapshoot.

Besides, delaying entry by antoher year will give you one less year of pensionable time (assuming you wish to serve a full career); one less year for promotion and thus more money, one less year for creidt for Sea Duty Allowance and Foregn Service Premium, one more year to accumulate interest on your loans...

In short, waiting a year has a large opportunity cost.  You have to make the choice, but be sure it's an informed one.


----------



## gcclarke

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Recruiting bonuses are offered when the CDS designates trades as sufficiently understrength that incentives are needed to close the gap.
> 
> "Centennial monies" have nothing to do with it - the Navy does not pay recruiting incentives fro mtheir funds; they come from central CF funds, managed by the Chief of Military Personnel.
> 
> Incentives will only come back if the occupational strength dips significantly below PML again.  Counting on that is a crapshoot.
> 
> Besides, delaying entry by antoher year will give you one less year of pensionable time (assuming you wish to serve a full career); one less year for promotion and thus more money, one less year for creidt for Sea Duty Allowance and Foregn Service Premium, one more year to accumulate interest on your loans...
> 
> In short, waiting a year has a large opportunity cost.  You have to make the choice, but be sure it's an informed one.



Frankly, I don't see why, at the very least CSE shouldn't be getting said bonus. Last time I checked, we were the 3rd most understrength officer trade in the CF. And I don't think MSE is in the green either.


----------



## George Wallace

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Frankly, I don't see why, at the very least CSE shouldn't be getting said bonus. Last time I checked, we were the 3rd most understrength officer trade in the CF. And I don't think MSE is in the green either.



Frankly, I don't see why I can't be a pilot, either.........but such is life.


----------



## gcclarke

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Frankly, I don't see why I can't be a pilot, either.........but such is life.



Meh, I'm not complaining. I got the bonus.


----------



## Maelstrom

I was looking at the pay scale shown on the recruiting web site, and it shows a Corporal earning more than a Lieutenant!   

It also shows an increase of 20k when going from Private to Corporal...


----------



## George Wallace

Maelstrom said:
			
		

> I was looking at the pay scale shown on the recruiting web site, and it shows a Corporal earning more than a Lieutenant!
> 
> It also shows an increase of 20k when going from Private to Corporal...



That is quite possible.  Depending on the Trade, a NCM can make more with Spec Pay than a Junior Officer.  That, however, will become less and less likely as an officer gets promoted into the Capt and Major ranks.


----------



## ballz

TcDohl said:
			
		

> Also, I'm nose-deep in student debt, and the former bonus of $40k would greatly help. I've seen what student debts can do to someone (my sis pays $850/month, interest only), and I'm debating whether or not to delay my application a year so I'd get the bonus, so that's definitely a factor as well. I'm planning on staying with the Navy for something like 10 years anyway, so what's another year if I could squash my student loan problem within the first year or so of that time instead of paying off the student loan for all of those 10 years.



If you've got an engineering degree adn you're that concerned about your student loans, go to Fort Crack for a year and sign a one-year contract with Syncrude or Suncor. It's not harder done than said. You'll get a signing bonus of around 20-30k plus a 120k a year or so job.

You'll more than pay off your debts and then join the Forces when that contract is up and whether or not you get a signing bonus then, you won't care :nod: If you really want to join the Forces, you still will, if not, have fun in the tar.


----------



## oats

Finishing a B. Civil Engineering degree program this week and looking into the military Construction Engineer Officer (CEO... I wish!) air force position.

I had an elongated talk with a recruiting officer who is a construction engineer and I wanted some input on his comments. I feel he was candid and straightforward in his responses so I have little reason to doubt their credibility. But I want more opinions and experiences to rely on if I decide to make this my career.



#1 - Time frame until captain:
My understanding is that I would go through basic training, then language training and then other training at Gagetown. This whole duration is nearly 1 1/2 yrs. At the end of the training I get the Lt. bar and a half. The officer said the typical duration from the beginning of training (ie. basic) to the double bar is about 4 years. Is this typical/average?

Essentially it sounds like the duration at each rank is as follows:
1 1/2 yr- 2Lt
2 yrs - Lt
Then at the 3 1/2 to 4 yr mark to Capt.

Is this realistic or is the recruiter sugar coating?



#2 - Pay scales:
I have a hard time deciphering between the Class A/B/C/D/E as shown here:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfor-ofr-eng.asp

A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)

Now the recruiter told me class A pay is typically for people with, say Masters degrees or who have gone through the ROTP/RMC training.
I imagine DEO is direct entry officer and I'm wondering if that would be applicable to me. I tried reading through the CBI references but nothing I have found clarifies what the distinctions are.



#3 - If you sign your contract at the 2009 pay scales, and in 2010 the pay in your category is increased, then do you receive the increased pay or are you paid according to the 2009 scales?



#4 - How much freedom do you get through basic and then occupational training? Do they train you throughout the weekends or are you allowed to do whatever you want?


#5 - If you sign as a Direct Entry Officer how long is your typical contract? What are the penalties of quitting and breaking the contact?




If my questions about finances make me seem like I want to join for the cash I want to clarify that is not the case. It is however an important issue to me. I went through the army cadet program for over 5 years, got my jump wings and joined the reserve unit my last year of high school. My understanding and enjoyment of the military culture and structure is healthy - so my motivations are not financial. However my responsibilities to dependents requires some financial prudence and planning.

I left the reserves because during my schooling I moved twice and being attached to another reserve unit without my trade training was a mess. I enjoyed playing pool, shredding paper and moving a little bit of furniture around the office. But it was becoming too much of a hassle to deal with all the bureaucracy. Looking back I should have gone the ROTP route but at the time I didn't want to tie myself into any contractual obligations for after I finished school.

Anyways, thanks for any help or information offered. I'm going to try and get into contact with some local engineers and pick their brains. Thought I might try here to see what you all have to say.

-oats


----------



## George Wallace

Well oats, you have come to the right place.  Each and every one of your questions has been asked many times before and answered in topics that are solely dedicated to them.  You will find several topics on Pay, Pay Scales, etc.  they will answer those questions.  You may want to SEARCH "weekends" and see what you find.  It could clear up a lot of things.  "Lengths of contracts" for the various Entry Plans are discussed, but it may be best to get the final word from your CFRC, as they will know exactly what Entry Plan you may be using.  

As for point # 3: I signed on the dotted line in Dec 1979, and I definitely am not getting paid at the 1979 pay rates.


----------



## oats

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I found some posts including answers from you.

Q1 - I found somewhere that the typical requirements for captain is 3 years of commissioned service and the required training and courses for your trade. So assuming there are no huge gaps, or courses failed, the average time would probably be about 3 1/2 years (1 1/2 initial training and then 2~ years as LT). This falls in line with what the recruiter said.

Q 2/3


> DEO 2LTs come in at a higher rate of pay, as they are usually more trained than those entering under other Officer Entry Plans.  That is, they usually have paid for their Degree/Certificate/Education out of their own pockets and are entering the CF with some skills vis the person entering under another Plan and having the CF then pay for them to gain those skills.



My situation falls under pay level C. Are you insinuating that they may start DEO officers at a higher Pay Increment level than Basic? 

What most affects the pay increment level offered to DEOs? Grades at school, time in the reserves or how much cash the CF has to throw around? I searched for this for DEOs but found essentially nothing.




> A 2LT reaching a Pay Level, like a Cpl reaching a certain Pay Level, will upon promotion to LT, like the Cpl to MCpl, go into the same Pay Level.  For example a 2LT getting paid Lvl 3 will upon promotion be paid LT Lvl 3.  In some cases you will see that the LT Lvl 1 will be less than 2LT Lvl 3, as you may notice when looking at all of the other ranks Pay Scales.



If I understand right then the progression on the pay scale to captain may look as follows:

Start as 2LT at Basic pay increment.
After a year or so get boosted to 2LT pay increment 1.
After req. training (1 1/2 yrs~ if there are no big gaps) promoted to LT and maintain pay increment 1 (not basic pay).
After another year get boosted to PI 2 for LT?
Then get promoted to captain and start back at the basic PI?

Does that sound right?

4 - There was not much on the BOMQ on the training forum. I am led to believe that it is just like BMQ where everyone is babied and cultured into military mode all the way through. Not looking forward to doing all that again.


5 - I failed to find any information about what the contracts for a DEO includes. If nobody has input on this then I will make sure to document the process and what I find, if move forward in my application and tests.

-oats


----------



## Nfld Sapper

IIRC you would start at the basic lvl when you move up in pay scale.

The only variation I know of is the NCM route from Cpl (A) to MCpl (listed as Cpl (B)) is that you go to the same IPC you had when you where a Cpl.


----------



## oats

That was my impression but I didn't know how to square that away with, say a 2Lt with PI 3 getting promoted to Lt with Basic - a pay cut. I assume they just put you to the PI necessary to avoid a paycut.

Ok, well thanks for help on payscales. I feel like I've got a workable idea of how they work. If I do the process and they give me an offer then I'll try and get it cleared up more.

If anyone has any input on what the signing contracts for DEOs entail shout it out 

I feel like I'm just taking and giving nothing on this board right now. You'll get back ten-fold whatever information you give me in time.


----------



## p2shanmu

oats said:
			
		

> What most affects the pay increment level offered to DEOs? Grades at school, time in the reserves or how much cash the CF has to throw around? I searched for this for DEOs but found essentially nothing.
> -oats



According to the CFRC personnel unlike the corporate structure, CF is based on RANKs.  So grades may be affected on your initial pay and increase accordingly. You will only know this information for sure when you get your employment offer.




			
				oats said:
			
		

> 4 - There was not much on the BOMQ on the training forum. I am led to believe that it is just like BMQ where everyone is babied and cultured into military mode all the way through. Not looking forward to doing all that again.
> -oats



Yes, BMOQ is quite same as the BMQ. Its only for officer candidates, and have more contents that will shape you as a leader/Officer.




			
				oats said:
			
		

> 5 - I failed to find any information about what the contracts for a DEO includes. If nobody has input on this then I will make sure to document the process and what I find, if move forward in my application and tests.
> -oats



If your trade is HOT, and CF is in need of people to fill in then they will offer you a signing bonus. And according to CFRC personnel, as a DEO your contract will be 5/6 years.  Since you have applied for Construction Eng for airforce, you only have to do the regular tests (Medical, interview etc...).


----------



## George Wallace

engineer1 said:
			
		

> If your trade is HOT, and CF is in need of people to fill in then they will offer you a signing bonus.



This is complete BS.


----------



## oats

The recruiter I talked to informed me that there are no recruitment allowances for Construction engineers at this time. It is listed as a 'Hot Job' on the recruitment website and throughout the CFRCs. Last I checked they still had 10 positions to fill this year .

The typical deo contract is for 5/6 years when you join without any incentives? That's something I'd have a hard time swallowing. But I didn't have that on my list of questions when I interrogated the recruiter. It's there for the next visit.

Thanks for info.


----------



## Robodad

Here's a link for Terms of Service (TOS). You need a DWAN computer for the link.
http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp


----------



## captloadie

> The typical deo contract is for 5/6 years when you join without any incentives? That's something I'd have a hard time swallowing.



Every year there is an increase in the pay, called incentives. As a Capt, there are ten incentives before you reach the maximum salary. 

If by incentives you mean "Hey, no one is paying me a bonus to sign 5/6 years of my life away", then you may want to consider looking on civvy street for a job. The incentive of joining the CF is starting a career that will change your life, most often for the better. The friends you'll make and the experiences you'll have will make the time well worth your while. It will also make you more marketable if and when you do leave for greener pastures.


----------



## George Wallace

Robodad said:
			
		

> Here's a link for Terms of Service (TOS). You need a DWAN computer for the link.
> http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp




 ;D

As the person asking the questions is only a prospect looking to join the CF, they will have to visit a CFRC to view this link.


----------



## funkmasta

Maelstrom said:
			
		

> I was looking at the pay scale shown on the recruiting web site, and it shows a Corporal earning more than a Lieutenant!
> 
> It also shows an increase of 20k when going from Private to Corporal...



HAHA, damn right!

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

I want to be a second, specialist corporal forever!

p.s. ..typo maybe?


----------



## evanb

I'm new here and thinking about joining the army.  I've been working for a few years after getting my university degree and I'm wondering how much of a pay cut I'll be taking during my time as an Officer Cadet.  Is there info somewhere that explains why a person would be started at pay level A versus pay level B?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

evanB said:
			
		

> I'm new here and thinking about joining the army.  I've been working for a few years after getting my university degree and I'm wondering how much of a pay cut I'll be taking during my time as an Officer Cadet.  Is there info somewhere that explains why a person would be started at pay level A versus pay level B?



Ask and you shall receive.......


A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)


204.211 - PAY - GENERAL SERVICE OFFICERS - OFFICER ENTRY PLANS - LIEUTENANT, SECOND LIEUTENANT AND OFFICER CADET 
204.211(1) (Purpose) The purpose of this instruction is to establish the rate of pay for an officer on enrolment, component transfer or commissioning, taking into consideration the number of pay increments awarded in accordance with CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments), CBI 204.04 (Rate of Pay on Promotion), and the officer’s rank and entry plan.

204.211(1.1) (Abbreviations) The following abbreviations are used in this CBI:

a.“CEOTP” means Continuing Education Officer Training Plan;
b.“CFRP” means Commissioned From the Ranks Plan;
c.“DEO” means Direct Entry Officer;
d.“OCTP” means Officer Candidate Training Plan (No Former Service and Former Service);
e.“ROTP” means Regular Officer Training Plan;
f.“SCP” means Special Commissioning Plan; and
g.“UTP(NCM) means University Training Plan Non-Commissioned Member.
204.211(1.2) (Application) This instruction applies to

a.an officer cadet to whom the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the OCTP, the CEOTP, the SCP or the CFRP applies;
b.a lieutenant or a second lieutenant who has successfully completed the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the CEOTP, the SCPl or the OCTP ;
c.a DEO in the rank of lieutenant, second lieutenant or officer cadet;
d.a lieutenant or second lieutenant commissioned directly from the rank of warrant officer or below; and
e.a pilot who was appointed to the rank of officer cadet or enrolled in the DEO Program after 30 September 1998.
204.211(2) (Pay on promotion) In accordance with paragraphs (3) and (4) of CBI 204.04 (Rate of Pay on Promotion), an officer shall be paid on promotion at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank, pay increment and pay level as set out in the tables to this instruction.

204.211(3) (Rate of pay – ROTP) An officer to whom the ROTP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows

a.if a lieutenant or second lieutenant 
i.with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level A of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction, or
ii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private, in pay level A of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction; or
iii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of corporal or above, in pay level D of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction; and
b.subject to QR&O 203.20 (Officers – Regular Force – Limitation of Payments) , if an officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level A of Table "A" to this instruction.
204.211(4) (Rate of pay – UTP(NCM) and SCP) A lieutenant or second lieutenant to whom the UTP(NCM) or SCP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:

a.if appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private, in pay level A of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction;
b.if appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of corporal or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction.
c.if commissioned directly to the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant from a non-commissioned member rank, in pay level D of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction.(CDS 1 April 2003)
204.211(5) (Rate of pay – OCTP (No Former Service)) A lieutenant, second lieutenant or officer cadet to whom the OCTP (No Former Service) applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment in pay level B of Table "A", "B" or "C" to this instruction.

204.211(6) (Rate of pay – OCTP (Former Service) A lieutenant or a second lieutenant to whom the OCTP (Former Service) applies, and who was appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction.

204.211(7) (Rate of pay – CEOTP) An officer to whom the CEOTP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:

a.for an officer in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant 
i.with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction, or
ii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction; and
b.in the rank of officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "A" to this instruction.
204.211(8) (Rate of pay – CFR) An officer to whom the CFR Plan applies and who was commissioned from the rank of warrant officer, sergeant, master corporal or such lower rank as determined by the Chief of the Defence Staff, directly to the rank of lieutenant, or such lower rank as determined by the Chief of the Defence Staff, shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment in pay level E of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction.

204.211(9) (Rate of pay – DEO) An officer to whom the DEO plan applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:

a.in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant 
i.with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level C of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction, or
ii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above, in pay level D of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction; and
b.in the rank of officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level C of Table "B" to this instruction.
204.211(9.1) (Rate of pay – officer with former non-commissioned member service on component transfer or re-enrolment) A lieutenant or second lieutenant with former non-commissioned member service on component transfer or re-enrolment to whom an entry plan in paragraph (4), (6), (7), (8) or (9) to this instruction applies shall be paid at the rate of pay in pay level D of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction for the pay increment calculated in accordance with CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments).

204.211(10) (Officer Cadet – former non-commissioned member) An officer cadet who is appointed directly to that rank from a non-commissioned rank shall be paid:

a.if the member was a non-commissioned member of the Regular Force, at the rate of pay which, including any upward adjustments to the rates of pay determined under subparagraphs (i) and (ii) that may be established from time to time, and any upward adjustments resulting from the reallocation of the last military occupation in which the member served as a non-commissioned member to a higher trade group, is the greater of the rate of pay established for: 
i.the rank, pay increment, pay level and trade group held on the day immediately prior to the date of appointment to the rank of officer cadet, or
ii.any higher pay increment to which the member would have become entitled had the member remained in the former rank, pay level and trade group as a non-commissioned member; and
b.if the member was a former Regular Force member who re-enrolled or a member who transferred from the Reserve Force to the Regular Force, at the rate of pay, including any upward adjustments to the rates of pay, in CBI 204.30 (Pay – Non-commissioned members) for: 
i.the rank, pay level and trade group that they would have received had they enrolled directly as a non-commissioned member as determined in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, at the pay increment determined by CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments); or
ii.any higher pay increment to which the officer would have become entitled under CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) had the officer remained in the former rank, pay level and trade group as a non-commissioned member.
204.211(10.1) (Transitional provision – officer cadet pay level D to Table “A”) The rate of pay for an officer cadet, who was paid under pay level “D” to Table “A” on 31 March 2006, shall be, for each month after March 2006, the greater of:

a.the rate of pay as determined under subparagraph (10)(b) to this instruction as though the changes to that subparagraph had been in effect on the day immediately prior to the date the officer was appointed to the rank of officer cadet; and
b.the rate of pay that the officer was receiving on 31 March 2006.
204.211(10.2) (Rate of pay – Reserve Force officer on Class “C” Service) A Reserve Force lieutenant, second lieutenant or officer cadet on Class “C” Reserve Service shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment determined under CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) in accordance with this table:

An officer holding the rank of ... and prior to the start of Class “C” Reserve Service was paid a rate of pay set out in CBI 204.52 at is entitled to the rate of pay in the following table to this instruction 
lieutenant or second lieutenant Pay level A to Table "B" Pay level C of Table "B" or "C" 
lieutenant or second lieutenant Pay level B to Table "B" Pay level D of Table "B" or "C" 
lieutenant Pay level C to Table "B" Pay level E of Table "C" 
lieutenant pilot Table "C" Pay level D of Table "C" 
officer cadet Table "B" Pay level B of Table "A" 
officer cadet former non-commissioned member rate in CBI 204.53 CBI 204.30 

204.211(11) (Limitations on pay increments) Despite CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) and paragraph (12), the number of pay increment increases may not exceed the maximum number of pay increments for the applicable pay level and table to this instruction, and is further limited as follows:

a.in the case of an officer cadet who is paid under pay level B in Table "A", to a maximum of one increase; and
b.in the case of a second lieutenant who is paid under Table "B", to a maximum of one increase, and in the case of a lieutenant who is paid under Table "C", to a maximum of three increases.
204.211(12) (Completion of training) If the Chief of the Defence Staff, or any officer designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, determines that an officer cannot complete military occupation training required for progression to the next rank solely as a result of a delay from scheduling of the training or a change in training requirements in the military occupation, and the required occupation training is not subsequent to a voluntary occupational transfer after one year of occupation training in the former military occupation, the maximum number of pay increment increases that may be provided to an officer under paragraph (11) is increased, but not to exceed the maximum number of pay increments for the applicable pay level and table, as follows:

a.in the case of a delay of one year or less, by one pay increment; and
b.in the case of a delay of more than one year, by two pay increments.
204.211(13) (Voluntary withdrawal – ROTP) An officer cadet to whom the ROTP applies, and who voluntarily withdraws from the academic portion of the ROTP, shall be paid, despite any other provisions of the CBI, for any subsequent period of obligatory service required to be performed during which the officer remains as an officer cadet, at the rate of pay to which entitled at the time of the withdrawal from the plan, including any upward adjustments to that rate of pay that may be established from time to time.

(TB, effective 22 June 2006)

TABLE “A” TO CBI 204.211 RANK PAY LEVEL 
MONTHLY RATES (in dollars) AFTER MARCH 2009 
PAY INCREMENT 
BASIC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 
Officer Cadet 
A 1465 1495 1530 1558 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 
B 2647 2757 3188 3312 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 
D ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 

(TB, effective 1 April 2009)

TABLE “B” TO CBI 204.211 RANK PAY LEVEL 
MONTHLY RATES (in dollars) AFTER MARCH 2009 
PAY INCREMENT 
BASIC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 
Second Lieutenant 
A 4198 4258 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 
B 3337 3533 3869 4209 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 
C 3590 3894 4198 4509 4818 5429 5436 ... ... ... ... 
D 4583 4718 4860 5007 5158 5311 5471 5635 5803 5976 6158 
E 4638 4775 4919 5066 5220 5375 5537 5701 5874 6050 6229 

(TB, effective 1 April 2009)

TABLE “C” TO CBI 204.211 RANK PAY LEVEL 
MONTHLY RATES (in dollars) AFTER MARCH 2009 
PAY INCREMENT 
BASIC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 
Lieutenant 
A 4575 4885 5197 5505 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 
B 3533 3869 4209 4584 4963 ... ... ... ... ... ... 
C 3947 4258 4416 4575 4731 4885 5040 5197 5352 5505 ... 
D 4705 4893 5087 5293 5504 5726 5952 6192 6440 6696 6966 
E 4888 5083 5287 5499 5721 5948 6186 6435 6691 6959 7238 

(TB, effective 1 April 2009)
204.2111 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002 
204.2112 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002 
204.2113 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002 
204.21135 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002 
204.2114 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002 
204.212 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002 
204.213 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002


----------



## dapaterson

Or, in English:

If you enter with a degree, you will be a DEO.  DEO 2Lts are paid under pay level C (assuming you have no previous military service).  Your starting pay will be $3590 per month (gross), or $43080 per year (gross).  Each year, on the anniversary of your enrolment, you will move to the next incentive pay category.

Promotion to Lt depends on a number of factors, primarily related to completing training.


----------



## evanb

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Or, in English:
> 
> If you enter with a degree, you will be a DEO.  DEO 2Lts are paid under pay level C (assuming you have no previous military service).  Your starting pay will be $3590 per month (gross), or $43080 per year (gross).  Each year, on the anniversary of your enrolment, you will move to the next incentive pay category.
> 
> Promotion to Lt depends on a number of factors, primarily related to completing training.



What about as an Officer Cadet?  The only two options are A (ROTP) or B (OCTP).


----------



## PuckChaser

evanB said:
			
		

> What about as an Officer Cadet?  The only two options are A (ROTP) or B (OCTP).



ROTP means you go to somewhere other than RMC and get your degree and do training in the summer. OCTP means you go to RMC to get your degree and do training during the summer.


----------



## evanb

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ROTP means you go to somewhere other than RMC and get your degree and do training in the summer. OCTP means you go to RMC to get your degree and do training during the summer.


Sorry to keep hounding you guys with questions, but where do I land since I already have my degree?  I wouldn't jump straight to Second Lieutenant without any training, would I?


----------



## aesop081

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ROTP means you go to somewhere other than RMC



That is incorrect.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Right, remember ROTP means REGUALR OFFICER TRAINING PLAN..... so you can either be going to RMC or a civy university like say MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY OF NEWFOUNDLAND...... (_I think...)_


----------



## evanb

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Right, remember ROTP means REGUALR OFFICER TRAINING PLAN..... so you can either be going to RMC or a civy university like say MEMORIAL UNIVERSITY OF NEWFOUNDLAND...... (_I think...)_


Then it would make sense for me to start as ROTP.  Would I then move to DEO as dapaterson mentioned?


----------



## MSEng314

evanB said:
			
		

> Sorry to keep hounding you guys with questions, but where do I land since I already have my degree?  I wouldn't jump straight to Second Lieutenant without any training, would I?



No, but you get paid as a 2Lt / A/SLt right away.



			
				evanB said:
			
		

> Then it would make sense for me to start as ROTP.  Would I then move to DEO as dapaterson mentioned?



No, DEO and ROTP are different pay scales until you get to Capt/Lt (N).


----------



## evanb

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> No, but you get paid as a 2Lt / A/SLt right away.



Understood.  Thanks.


----------



## Occam

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> No, but you get paid as a 2Lt / A/SLt right away.



I don't have the CFAO accessible, but I'm pretty sure that officers enrolled under DEO are promoted 2Lt upon completion of BMOQ.  Further promotion to Lt and Capt are dependent upon phase training in their occupation.


----------



## MSEng314

Yes you are commissioned and promoted when you finish BMOQ, but your seniority date and your pay are retroactive to your enrollment date, hence you get paid as a 2Lt while you are doing your BMOQ.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Some DEOs are promoted 2Lt and then Lt right away/retro pay back to their enrolment date.  Nursing Officer is one that comes to mind.  I am sure there are others.


----------



## MSEng314

Also true, my platoon had 3 people promoted right to Lt. (two MPO's and a Hospital Admin), as well as three legal officers who went right to Capt.

Having to salute former classmates was a bit of a twist, but that's the way the game plays


----------



## Barts

3 from my course were Captains while on course: 2 Docs, 1 Pharmacist

(Captain bars with the 'racing stripe' really confused some people)


----------



## Antoine

How does it work for DEO rank level (other than officer cadet, 2Lt) following/during BMOQ, is it related to the trade and/or the degree (BSc/BA, LLB, MSc/MA, PhD, MD, PharmD) ?


----------



## MSEng314

Degree affects your pay: 3 year degree = level 1, 4 year degree = level 2, masters = level 3 etc.

As far as promotions goes, it depends on the trade.


----------



## Barts

Antoine said:
			
		

> How does it work for DEO rank level (other than officer cadet, 2Lt) following/during BMOQ, is it related to the trade and/or the degree (BSc/BA, LLB, MSc/MA, PhD, MD, PharmD) ?



For DEO:

Some specialist trades such as Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer, Pharmacist, Chaplain are automatically promoted to Captain.  For them, direct entry requires that they already be qualified/practising. (to answer the question directly, it is both the trade and that associated degree)

GSOs and Pilots come in at 2Lt.



			
				MSEng314 said:
			
		

> Degree affects your pay: 3 year degree = level 1, 4 year degree = level 2, masters = level 3 etc.
> 
> As far as promotions goes, it depends on the trade.



Are you referring to IPCs?  I've never seen that before (but I'd happily be convinced)  Is there a reference?


----------



## MSEng314

I don't have any 'official' references, however that is what I was told by the clerks, and comparing my pay statement to the 2009 pay scale seems to confirm that is in fact the case. It was the same for most of my platoon, we started off at 2Lt - pay level C - increment 1 (or higher for some people, one guy on my platoon had 3 degrees).


----------



## Barts

I guess I learned something today...

Cool.


----------



## Antoine

Yes, me too, thanks


----------



## CountDC

funkmasta said:
			
		

> HAHA, damn right!
> 
> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp
> 
> I want to be a second, specialist corporal forever!
> 
> p.s. ..typo maybe?



No typos but he sure confused me over the 20k increase from Pte to Cpl until I realized he wasn't following the full scale.  Going from Pte (1) to Cpl (b) will give you almost a 21.5k increase.  In the real world for the most part we go from Pte(3) which only gives an increase of 6.6k.


----------



## Barts

CountDC said:
			
		

> No typos but he sure confused me over the 20k increase from Pte to Cpl until I realized he wasn't following the full scale.  Going from Pte (1) to Cpl (b) will give you almost a 21.5k increase.  In the real world for the most part we go from Pte(3) which only gives an increase of 6.6k.



I'm going to disagree on the typo.  I'm *certain* there's a typo in pay rate of Cpl 5A, Spec 1, IPC 1...   Why else would they make more than CWO? (and for only one year)


----------



## goldenhamster

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> Degree affects your pay: 3 year degree = level 1, 4 year degree = level 2, masters = level 3 etc.
> 
> As far as promotions goes, it depends on the trade.



Does experience count at all?  For example if two people enter as DEO with bachelor degree, one is a fresh graduate and the other has 10 years of related work experience, will the IPC be different?


----------



## Monsoon

goldenhamster said:
			
		

> Does experience count at all?  For example if two people enter as DEO with bachelor degree, one is a fresh graduate and the other has 10 years of related work experience, will the IPC be different?


Nope. But if the person genuinely learned something from their 10 years of experience, then you could expect them to excel at the job, complete the requisite on-job training more quickly, get selected for the career-progressing career courses, and be promoted sooner. On the other hand, it may just be that the university kid won't be half-bad either. It's all about merit: show, don't tell.


----------



## George Wallace

goldenhamster said:
			
		

> Does experience count at all?  For example if two people enter as DEO with bachelor degree, one is a fresh graduate and the other has 10 years of related work experience, will the IPC be different?



It is a possibility.  Everyone who joins is treated as an individual.  A person may have a Prior Learning Assessment done on their work experience and be credited with it towards their career progression or IPC on enrollment.  All of this will be put to the person in the message that will be their "offer".  Will it be the norm?  No.  It will depend on the individual, the Trade they hope to enter, their related experience, whether or not the Trade is distressed, the feelings of the Career Manager, and numerous other factors.


----------



## goldenhamster

Oh, okay, 

Thanks for the explanations.  Now it makes sense to me


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Barts said:
			
		

> I'm going to disagree on the typo.  I'm *certain* there's a typo in pay rate of Cpl 5A, Spec 1, IPC 1...   Why else would they make more than CWO? (and for only one year)



A Spec 1 Cpl at any IPC doesn't make what a CWO makes, even CWO (8A) IPC Basic, Standard.


----------



## Barts

There must be a problem with my browser then, because when I opened the previously posted link:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

it showed a Spec 1 Cpl making $8025 monthly at IPC 1.  I just checked again, and it still does.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> A Spec 1 Cpl at any IPC doesn't make what a CWO makes, even CWO (8A) IPC Basic, Standard.



Please don't get me wrong, I agree with you on that point, which is why I think there's a typo in that table.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Odd.  When I click on the link, the amounts in the tables are correct.


----------



## Barts

This is what I see (arrow added for emphasis and clarity)


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Yes the webpage is wrong but did you click on the pdf link?

PDF link shows the correct pay.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Well, if its correct, I want THAT pay level!   ;D


----------



## Nfld Sapper

And IIRC this was noted in another thread about the 2009 pay increase....


----------



## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Well, if its correct, I want THAT pay level!   ;D



If you really want.  It only means that you take a $3K pay cut the next year.    ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I'd still be getting paid far more than I'm worth  ;D.


----------



## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'd still be getting paid far more than I'm worth  ;D.



I just can't pass this one up........And you aren't now?     >





 ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Heck, I doubt I am even worth my PLD let alone $8k a month!!


----------



## George Wallace

Meanwhile, returning to the subject at hand, I wonder what recent events will have on the next fiscal year's Pay Scales?


----------



## MSEng314

Care to elaborate George?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Talking about all the budget cuts forces wide.......


----------



## Eye In The Sky

...and our 1.5% economic adjustment already announced last year that is supposed to effective 01 Apr 10.


----------



## George Wallace

Six year long pay freezes really suck; especially in year six.


----------



## MSEng314

Ah, I see... Sounds like I joined at just the right time  :


----------



## BinRat55

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, returning to the subject at hand, I wonder what recent events will have on the next fiscal year's Pay Scales?



Weren't we supposed to receive some sort of parity raise from when our civilian sectors ratified their new contract back last Aug? I'm sure I read a Canforgen on it...


----------



## CountDC

Barts said:
			
		

> I'm going to disagree on the typo.  I'm *certain* there's a typo in pay rate of Cpl 5A, Spec 1, IPC 1...   Why else would they make more than CWO? (and for only one year)



oops didn't look there as I read "second specialist corporal" which I took to mean Cpl 5A Spec 2.

Should have remembered as it was brought up in a prior thread.


----------



## CFchamp

2nd Lieutenant makes 49000 a year
lieutenant makes 54000 a year
Captain makes 68000 a year            

you spend 2 years as a 2ndLT then 2 more years as a LT so after 4 years your a captain


----------



## CFchamp

Right now as of 2010- got this off the Canadian forces website

Non Commisioned members make yearly                  Officers make yearly
Private-31,488                                                      2ndLT- 49,000
Corporal- 50,008                                                    LT- 55.000
Master Corporal- 55,032                                      Captain- 68,000
Sergeant-60,098                                                  Major- 90,0000


Officers do make more money, it only takes 4 years to become a Captain(60k per year) but after that it becomes almost impossible to rank, sometimes it can take up to 10 years just to rank from Captain to Major. Why as being a NCM you are practically garunteed being ranked up at least every 4-5 years. - Im 15 next year joining the reserves, i want to become either a Armoured solider or Armour officer, they are the same thing but one is a NCM and one is a officer im just not sure if its worth 4 more years of education for to make a few more dollars any tips???


----------



## aesop081

CFchamp said:
			
		

> Why as being a NCM you are practically garunteed being ranked up at least every 4-5 years. -



That is incorrect, full stop.

Promotions are never guaranteed. Lots of people around who will never see the next rank.



> any tips



Yeah : Read a little more before posting things like that.


----------



## Barts

(They're not the same thing)

Do you want to start with driving armoured vehicles?
or
Do you want to start with LEADING people who drive armoured vehicles?

My tip is to focus on doing well in school for now, so that if you try the officer route, you stand a chance at being competitive. Not to say NCM isn't competitive either.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

CFchamp said:
			
		

> Right now as of 2010- got this off the Canadian forces website
> 
> Non Commisioned members make yearly                  Officers make yearly
> Private-31,488                                                      2ndLT- 49,000
> Corporal- 50,008                                                    LT- 55.000
> Master Corporal- 55,032                                      Captain- 68,000
> Sergeant-60,098                                                  Major- 90,0000
> 
> 
> Officers do make more money, it only takes 4 years to become a Captain(60k per year) but after that it becomes almost impossible to rank, sometimes it can take up to 10 years just to rank from Captain to Major. Why as being a NCM you are practically garunteed being ranked up at least every 4-5 years. - Im 15 next year joining the reserves, i want to become either a Armoured solider or Armour officer, they are the same thing but one is a NCM and one is a officer im just not sure if its worth 4 more years of education for to make a few more dollars any tips???



The rates you quote are for REGULAR FORCE as a RESERVIST you will make much much less per year.....


----------



## Nfld Sapper

CFchamp said:
			
		

> 2nd Lieutenant makes 49000 a year
> lieutenant makes 54000 a year
> Captain makes 68000 a year
> 
> you spend 2 years as a 2ndLT then 2 more years as a LT so after 4 years your a captain



Not necessarily true...... you have been told before...



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Promotions are never guaranteed. Lots of people around who will never see the next rank.



MILNET.CA MENTOR


----------



## Forester

Barts said:
			
		

> (They're not the same thing)
> 
> Do you want to start with driving armoured vehicles?
> or
> Do you want to start with LEADING people who drive armoured vehicles?
> 
> My tip is to focus on doing well in school for now, so that if you try the officer route, you stand a chance at being competitive. Not to say NCM isn't competitive either.



Getting your degree, even being an NCM, is not a bad thing. I know lots of NCMs that have degrees. It does help mature you, and can help you become a better, more rounded leader. Though like Barts said, it depends on what you want to do. Do it, or lead people doing it.


----------



## captloadie

Well, the above quote sounds great, but unless you have a medical or administrative reason (ie C&P, accomoadation, etc.) promotion to Captain is now automatic, not merited. Heck the rate we're going in the Log world, promotion to Maj will soon be automatic.


----------



## gcclarke

Eh, I know at least a few current SLts who will never make Lt(N) while they are still in their current trade. The prospect of being a training failure may be unpleasant, but shouldn't be discounted completely. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, etc. Of course, failure rates do vary greatly from trade to trade. I cannot speak for the fine contstruction engineering folk.


----------



## CFchamp

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That is incorrect, full stop.
> 
> Promotions are never guaranteed. Lots of people around who will never see the next rank.
> 
> Yeah : Read a little more before posting things like that.



I said practically bud i no your not always going to rank my father was a master corporal for 10 years before he reached sergeant thanks for the help guys!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

CFchamp said:
			
		

> I said practically bud i no your not always going to rank my father was a master corporal for 10 years before he reached sergeant thanks for the help guys!



That's your freebie.

Go read the site guidelines. Start using proper grammar, punctuation and capitalization. Use the spell check before you post.

Lastly, stay in your lane.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## meni0n

Didn`t want to start a new thread, once you do an OT, does your IPC date stays tied to your seniority date or does it change to the effective date of your transfer?


----------



## dapaterson

meni0n said:
			
		

> Didn`t want to start a new thread, once you do an OT, does your IPC date stays tied to your seniority date or does it change to the effective date of your transfer?



Depends.  Are you stepping down in rank becasue of the OT (ie Sgt Inf becomes Cpl Veh Tech)?

Lots of permutations and combinations are possible - it's the details that make up each case.


----------



## meni0n

Dap, I stayed the same rank. Was supposed to go up IPC on 22 march but it was modified for july, when I VOTed to new trade.


----------



## -ORaNGe-

Hey guys I was just wondering if anyone knew of an up-to-date list of which trades are specified as specialist trades in the CF. I believe that ACS Tech and Hull Technicians are specialists but what else applies? I've searched on the net but haven't been able to find out, thanks in advance.


----------



## George Wallace

-ORaNGe- said:
			
		

> Hey guys I was just wondering if anyone knew of an up-to-date list of which trades are specified as specialist trades in the CF. I believe that ACS Tech and Hull Technicians are specialists but what else applies? I've searched on the net but haven't been able to find out, thanks in advance.



I know that this answer isn't what you were looking for, but it is bound to be pretty much what most who just read your post are thinking:

Does it really matter that much what Trades make what when it comes to wages?  Are you joining to make a fortune or joining to serve?


----------



## -ORaNGe-

It's not so much about the money, yes I want to serve however I'm undecided on which trade it is I'd like to go into. I'm interested in Materials Tech, ACS Tech, and still doing research into others. I'm interested in the more technical and "specialty" trades because I like a challenge and being challenged every day, typically specialist trades will be the more difficult and challenging ones which is what I'm looking for. If there is more pay it's a bonus, who wouldn't like to make a bit more money? If I were just looking for a higher pay cheque I would have stayed with my old trade as an ironworker.


----------



## Occam

-ORaNGe- said:
			
		

> Hey guys I was just wondering if anyone knew of an up-to-date list of which trades are specified as specialist trades in the CF. I believe that ACS Tech and Hull Technicians are specialists but what else applies? I've searched on the net but haven't been able to find out, thanks in advance.



Look for TABLE A TO CBI 204.3 - ALLOCATION OF MOSID TO SPECIALIST TRADE GROUPS


----------



## aesop081

-ORaNGe- said:
			
		

> typically specialist trades will be the more difficult and challenging ones



I realy, realy beleive you should re-think that..........


----------



## Jammer

Oh yeah...!


----------



## Greymatters

-ORaNGe- said:
			
		

> It's not so much about the money, yes I want to serve however I'm undecided on which trade it is I'd like to go into. I'm interested in Materials Tech, ACS Tech, and still doing research into others. I'm interested in the more technical and "specialty" trades because I like a challenge and being challenged every day, typically specialist trades will be the more difficult and challenging ones which is what I'm looking for. If there is more pay it's a bonus, who wouldn't like to make a bit more money? If I were just looking for a higher pay cheque I would have stayed with my old trade as an ironworker.



For someone not yet in the reg force you seem to have quite the expert opinion on what is and is not challenging and/or difficult.  

Different trades have different types of challenges and difficulty, some physical, some mental, some technical, some environmental.  Trades with specialty pay have more to do with the level of education required and the amount of danger involved rather than 'difficult' and 'challenging' which can apply to any trade...

..


----------



## -ORaNGe-

Thanks OCCAM I appreciate the link there's just so much information to navigate through especially if you don't know exactly where to look.

GreyMatters I never claimed to be an expert as you say, a specialist is a specialist for a reason I'm sure, in one aspect or another of their occupation they likely face challenges that other trades may not whether it be due to a need for specialized education, training, or hardships either mental, physical or both in their roles if the forces. 

Do I know as much about the forces as you do? Nope, never claimed too, I'm researching and I'm learning as best I can. If someone makes a statement that is off in the recruiting office should the recruiter then mock you? I'm asking questions, that's what a forum typically is for questions and discussion. Isn't easier just to give a 1 or 2 line answer than to cut someone down?

Do I want to go specialist for the pay? It's a part of it, I won't lie. Mostly I just want to get as much education and experience as I can, as for a higher pay rate I have a child on the way and a wife and I'd like to be able to provide for them as best I can....


----------



## DexOlesa

The only place with any mention of OCTP is that payscale. I don't see that anywhere else. Is that even still a entry program? It's not listed on the recruiting site.


----------



## Michael OLeary

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> The only place with any mention of OCTP is that payscale. I don't see that anywhere else. Is that even still a entry program? It's not listed on the recruiting site.



Yes, it exists, but that doesn't mean there's any active recruiting going on under that plan right now.  Just because it's not being used today is no reason to purge all documentation of any references to it, only to have to reinvent the wheel if it becomes needed again in the future.


----------



## meni0n

An update, I`ve been advised by the clerks here, that even though my seniority date didn`t change and remains in March since I did a VOT and the effective date was in July, the IPC would only go up in July. Does it make sense that my IPC will go up a year and four months and not a year after my seniority date?


----------



## CountDC

Did you change from a Non-Spec pay trade to a Spec-Pay trade?  I know in those cases the IPC date becomes the day you switch.  Not sure at the moment otherwise, would have to check it.


----------



## meni0n

CountDC, yes I did go from non spec to spec but since I am not qualified I am getting paid under the IPC I had before.


----------



## CountDC

hmmmm thought the change only happened when you qualified for spec pay. At that point you become spec pay IPC 0.  If mbr is Standard IPC 4 and they switch to Spec pay they will be IPC 0 and their IPC date becomes the day they switch.  


edit:  http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/pay-sol/spoipfn-pdmeopls-eng.asp

This is the direction for Admin of Spec pay.  You remain at the Junior level (no spec pay) until fully qualified.  When qualifed you are then switched to the spec pay and your IPC date changes.

Ask the clerks for the regulation that says your IPC date is supposed to be changed prior to you receiving spec pay.  A quick search didn't come up with anything.


----------



## meni0n

Maybe one of the reasons this is happening because I had a screw up with my pay and they put me spec on the date I switched to new trade. Took a couple of months to sort it out and I got back to standard IPC but the clerks I talk to here all tell me because I did a VOT my new IPC date is the official VOT date but my seniority date stayed the same and I stayed the same IPC. So the way it looks now, I have been Cpl 1 since March, my seniority date is March but I will get a IPC increase only in July.


----------



## CountDC

If it was me I wouldn't settle for the pat answer - politely insist they show you the policy.  Any clerk worth their salt would not be put off by such a request. It's your money so you have every right, in fact you are ultimately responsible, to ensure your pay is correct.  There may be a policy that came out I am not aware of but at the moment I can not think of any reason why your IPC would not increase on it's due date other than the initial screw up where they gave you spec pec.  If they can't find the regulation then ask that they send an enquiry for clarification to DCBA.
My VOT from infantry to Finance while with pres did not change my IPC date.


----------



## meni0n

Count, the clerk basically cited CFAO 49-4 and said that my new seniority date is the VOT date. I asked her why it hasn`t changed on my MPRR, she couldn`t give me an answer and just said something about it not being entered. Basically if I have an issue with that, I`ve been told to go thru my chain of command. I couldn`t find anything really in that CFAO where it states that seniority date changes on VOT.


----------



## kratz

No.

Certain clerk functions can not be actioned at the local level (OR/SHO). Because of this, there are occasions that a clerk who does not know better, will shift off the action responsibility onto the member or their CoC. You can go through your CoC, but often despite CoC best efforts their will most likely get frustrated in what is essentially your personal administrative issue, that is not your fault. If you truly believe you are entitled to pay or benefits, cite the reference, what action or inaction has occurred and ask to speak to the OR/SHO 2i/c and higher until you get an answer with references that you (and your CoC as needed) are satisfied with.


----------



## CountDC

49-4???  Ask them what that has to do with IPC.  It is the policy on seniority for promotion which is a different kettle of fish. You want the regulation that states your IPC date changes on VOT. I have only seen a few VOT's including my own and the IPC date did not change for any of them.  The regulation I found is actually in CBI 204 - 

CBI 204.03(6) is the place to start and refers to the other ones.

A quick read gives the impression that your situation is correct as they do not specifically mention time credit to next IPC and CBI 204.015(7)(b) does state "has completed one year of qualifying service, or after such lesser amount of qualifying service as may be authorized by the Chief of the Defence Staff."   This is where your VOT message comes in.  The message should contain a line stating your rank, IPC and IPC time credit which is the "lesser amount of qualifying" part. Depending on what is in your message you may have to submit a request for the IPC time credit - sometimes it does get left out.

Go higher - ask for a meeting with the CC and go over everything including the incorrect policy provided.  Ask them if they will verify with Ottawa.


----------



## meni0n

Thanks for the info Count. I went to see the pay people today and they called the number on my message to detemine pay and IPC in Ottawa so hopefully I`ll have an answer soon. As for 49-4, on my VOT message it says IPC to be determined by 49-4. I read thru it and haven`t found anything there at all.


----------



## CountDC

Let us know the result, if there is something that says your IPC date is to be changed I would like to know in case I have to deal with it in the future.


----------



## athlon866

The post gave most answers I needed.

How is income tax calculated since you are not in any of provinces?


----------



## aesop081

athlon866 said:
			
		

> How is income tax calculated since you are not in any of provinces?



??

Home is either in BC or NS............


----------



## RhumRunner

As CDN Aviator said, you are taxed according to the province of your principal residence, ie: BC, ON, QUE, NS etc.

Just like a normal civil servant, your T-4 is fairly detailed and has everything you need. It's when you are deployed in an operational theatre where there are tax free benefits that it gets a bit more complicated. But, your T-4 has all of that too.


----------



## meni0n

As requested, I just got an email saying that my pay has been adjusted to reflect change of IPC on 22 march instead of 13 july. 

So basically IPC date doesn`t change on OT if you stay the same rank.


----------



## CountDC

Thanks for the update and fighting the good fight.  Glad to hear it went your way.

IPC increase 22 Mar and 1.5% 1 Apr - rich bugger now!!  ;D


----------



## meni0n

Hooray  Actually the 1.5% tricked me for a second as I thought I had the IPC increase but then I saw it wasn`t


----------



## Snakedoc

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> Degree affects your pay: 3 year degree = level 1, 4 year degree = level 2, masters = level 3 etc.
> 
> As far as promotions goes, it depends on the trade.



I just came across this thread and thought the above post was interesting.  I've never heard of this but was surprised that nobody on the forums 'refuted' it as well so perhaps there's a grain of truth in it???  Does somebody have a reference for this about when and were this would apply?


----------



## Zoomie

This applies when you are a 2Lt.  At least it did for me.  I was receiving a higher scale of pay (same IPC) as someone else with identical join date - only difference was that I had a 4 year Degree and he had a 3 year.


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr

Helps when you commission from the ranks as well: 2Lt (B) pay scale.


----------



## SeanNewman

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> Helps when you commission from the ranks as well: 2Lt (B) pay scale.



What trade?  What rank upon changing over?

I have never seen a CFR go to 2Lt, only a brief stop at OCdt for some before going to Lt or Capt.

Typically in the Infantry CFRs are offered at Sgt-MWO level (not all, but the bulk of the bell curve).


----------



## ltmaverick25

As far as reg force pay scales are concerned for the 2Lt rank level the following applies.

Pay level C is what DEOs receive.
Pay level D is what former NCMs receive
Pay level E is what CFR's receive.

I beleive A and B is for ROTP and CEOTP though I dont know which is which.

The same is also true at the Lt level.  At Capt everyone receives the same.


----------



## SupersonicMax

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> The same is also true at the Lt level.  At Capt everyone receives the same.



Unless you are a pilot/doctor/dentist/lawyer


----------



## vonGarvin

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Unless you are a pilot/doctor/dentist/lawyer


Pilot/doctor/dentist/lawyers actually make the most.  More than Pilots.  More than Doctors.  More than Dentists (who are all failed doctors, right), and certainly more than lawyers


;D


----------



## SupersonicMax

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Pilot/doctor/dentist/lawyers actually make the most.  More than Pilots.  More than Doctors.  More than Dentists (who are all failed doctors, right), and certainly more than lawyers
> 
> 
> ;D



Actually, we all know that a Lawyer is a failed Dentist, which is a failed Doctor, which is a failed Pilot


----------



## SeanNewman

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> As far as reg force pay scales are concerned for the 2Lt rank level the following applies.
> ...
> The same is also true at the Lt level.  At Capt everyone receives the same.



Ack, I know what the Pay Scale is there for but I was asking when that actually happens?  Even though the pay scale exists, I have never seen a 2Lt CFR.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Petamocto said:
			
		

> What trade?  What rank upon changing over?
> 
> I have never seen a CFR go to 2Lt, only a brief stop at OCdt for some before going to Lt or Capt.
> 
> Typically in the Infantry CFRs are offered at Sgt-MWO level (not all, but the bulk of the bell curve).



Maybe it's just reserve world. We just had a MCpl CFR to 2LT, I think another soldiers "3 degrees" somehow put her at 2 LT also.


----------



## 392

We had a couple MCpls CFR a couple years back, and they ended up 2Lts.


----------



## vonGarvin

People must be confusing UTPNCM with CFR.  For UTPNCM, your minimum rank for applying is Cpl.  For CFR, the minimum rank for recommendation is Sgt (IIRC).


----------



## Occam

Technoviking said:
			
		

> People must be confusing UTPNCM with CFR.  For UTPNCM, your minimum rank for applying is Cpl.  For CFR, the minimum rank for recommendation is Sgt (IIRC).



*Exceptional* MS/MCpls are usually allowed to be nominated, but that seems to vary from year-to-year.


----------



## ltmaverick25

Based on what I have seen from my peers who were CFRs, it seems to me that if you are a Sgt/P2 CFR then you go straight to Lt/SLt, anything lower ends up as a 2Lt/ASLt.  

I know a number of WOs that went straight to captain also.


----------



## vonGarvin

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Based on what I have seen from my peers who were CFRs, it seems to me that if you are a Sgt/P2 CFR then you go straight to Lt/SLt, anything lower ends up as a 2Lt/ASLt.
> 
> I know a number of WOs that went straight to captain also.


Not being a CFR (I was UTPNCM), upon completion of my degree, I was commissioned to the rank of 2Lt, and immediately promoted to the rank of Lt.


----------



## DamagedOne

CFchamp said:
			
		

> Right now as of 2010- got this off the Canadian forces website
> 
> Non Commisioned members make yearly                  Officers make yearly
> Private-31,488                                                      2ndLT- 49,000
> Corporal- 50,008                                                    LT- 55.000
> Master Corporal- 55,032                                      Captain- 68,000
> Sergeant-60,098                                                  Major- 90,0000
> 
> 
> Officers do make more money, it only takes 4 years to become a Captain(60k per year) but after that it becomes almost impossible to rank, sometimes it can take up to 10 years just to rank from Captain to Major. Why as being a NCM you are practically garunteed being ranked up at least every 4-5 years. - Im 15 next year joining the reserves, i want to become either a Armoured solider or Armour officer, they are the same thing but one is a NCM and one is a officer im just not sure if its worth 4 more years of education for to make a few more dollars any tips???



I think that you may want to recheck your sources for pay rates.  I am a Corporal and make a little over $64,000 per year at Cpl 4. Each rank has a yearly incentive up to 4, and depending on whether the trade you are in makes spec 1 or spec 2 has an impact on what you make as well.....


----------



## stealthylizard

There is no rank, officer or NCM, in which it is almost impossible to move up to or past, or there wouldn't be any higher ranks.  Look at the job requirment differences with officers as well.  There is a good reason that it may take captains up to 10 years to reach the rank of major.  That's not to say that senior NCO's don't have demanding job requirements, it's just a different area of responsibility.

Major - responsible for a company's worth of men (about 100)
Sergeant, Warrant - responsible for a platoon's worth (about 30), and for helping guide LT's, and captains

And no an officer and an NCM are not the same thing in any trade.


----------



## Niteshade

Damagedone,

My advice is to stay in school, get the 4 years of post-secondary education and go officer if you so desire.
More money over time.
Should you leave the military for whatever reason, you can fall back on your education and still be gainfully employed.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Things change too quickly in todays job market now.

Best,

Nites


----------



## 392

DamagedOne said:
			
		

> I think that you may want to recheck your sources for pay rates.  I am a Corporal and make a little over $64,000 per year at Cpl 4. Each rank has a yearly incentive up to 4, and depending on whether the trade you are in makes spec 1 or spec 2 has an impact on what you make as well.....



I am going to assume you're not making spec pay - in which case I would suggest you re-check your math as I am making less than $64, 000 per year at Sgt. Splitting hairs yes, but if you're going to call someone out, best make sure you outline all the info....


----------



## armychick2009

DamagedOne said:
			
		

> I think that you may want to recheck your sources for pay rates.  I am a Corporal and make a little over $64,000 per year at Cpl 4. Each rank has a yearly incentive up to 4, and depending on whether the trade you are in makes spec 1 or spec 2 has an impact on what you make as well.....





			
				Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> I am going to assume you're not making spec pay - in which case I would suggest you re-check your math as I am making less than $64, 000 per year at Sgt. Splitting hairs yes, but if you're going to call someone out, best make sure you outline all the info....




My ex-husband was making only about $55k a year as a MCpl, and he has twenty years in now. $64K? I guess there definitely has to be spec pay in there!


----------



## blacktriangle

Cpl IPC 4 Spec 1.


----------



## Grilo

Hello, I am in the middle of the application process, awaiting my apt test, medical, and interview. I had a question about the pay scale that is posted. I will be a DEO MARS officer. Which category will I fall under for the officer recruit? There are two categories, ROTP or OCPT. I am just trying to do as they say and get things in order. If I can figure this out I can set up everything and not worry. This part is just not clear. I am ok with taking a pay cut for two months, I just want to budget what the pay cut is. Or do the DEO have a different  route and they just start where it says DEO?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Patrick


----------



## George Wallace

I often wonder why we even bother.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91094/post-897661.html#msg897661

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13588/post-835472.html#msg835472


----------



## Grilo

Thank you for the later link. I searched DEO pay scale and that thread did not come up. But my question is also about BMOQ as well. Do DEO get paid that amount while going to basic or in the Officer Cadet section there is no DEO. 

Thank you for your time.

Patrick


----------



## Occam

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/doc/204-02.pdf, look for 204.211(9).

You're paid as an OCdt until you finish BMOQ, then are commissioned and paid as per the other table for 2Lt and Lt.


----------



## SeanNewman

Occam said:
			
		

> You're paid as an OCdt until you finish BMOQ, then are commissioned and paid as per the other table for 2Lt and Lt.



If it's still the same as the DEO scale when I went through, it was OCdt until the end of Basic but then everything was retro-dated to date of enrollment.

Back then you had to take SLT between Basic and CAP, so add that to the odd injury on one of the four phases and not having the phases line up perfectly time wise meant some people were getting promoted to Capt right after getting to their unit because it had been three years since they enrolled.


----------



## northernboy_24

I can only tell you my experience in just signing a DEO contract. They are just paying out at the ASLT DEO rates starting at the beginning of basic.  So they have stopped doing the retro pay at the end by paying as if you were ranked day 1 of basic.

But that is what my contract says.  As with all things your experience may be different.


----------



## OkanaganHeat

With respect to the pay level for a CEOTP, is there a time limit to prior service?  Years ago I was a PRes infantryman and then Reg tech and am now in the process of being a CEOTP AEC pending air crew rating and interview.  I am trying to determine where I would fit on the pay scale for OCdt and 2Lt.  Would I fall under level D or level B? Tried to decipher the information on page two from NFLD Sapper but don't have the information to tell if there is a time limit.


----------



## George Wallace

OkanaganHeat said:
			
		

> With respect to the pay level for a CEOTP, is there a time limit to prior service?  Years ago I was a PRes infantryman and then Reg tech and am now in the process of being a CEOTP AEC pending air crew rating and interview.  I am trying to determine where I would fit on the pay scale for OCdt and 2Lt.  Would I fall under level D or level B? Tried to decipher the information on page two from NFLD Sapper but don't have the information to tell if there is a time limit.



With all due respect, I can not figure out how a person aspiring to become an officer, especially one with prior service can not look this up:  Regular Force and Class C Officer Rates

PAY LEVEL 
A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)   NOT YOU
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)  Are you a CFR?  If NOT, then this is not you.


B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113  & 204.2153)


> 204.211(3) (Rate of pay – ROTP) An officer to whom the ROTP applies  shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows
> 
> a.if a lieutenant or second lieutenant
> i.with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level A of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction, or
> ii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private, in pay level A of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction; or
> iii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of corporal or above, in pay level D of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction; and
> b.subject to QR&O 203.20 (Officers – Regular Force – Limitation of Payments) , if an officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level A of Table "A" to this instruction.    NOT YOU
> 
> 204.211(3) (Rate of pay – ROTP) An officer to whom the ROTP applies  shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows
> 
> a.if a lieutenant or second lieutenant
> i.with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level A of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction, or
> ii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private, in pay level A of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction; or
> iii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of corporal or above, in pay level D of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction; and
> b.subject to QR&O 203.20 (Officers – Regular Force – Limitation of Payments) , if an officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level A of Table "A" to this instruction.     NOT YOU



C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114  & 204.2154)


> 204.211(4) (Rate of pay – UTP(NCM) and SCP) A lieutenant or second lieutenant to whom the UTP(NCM) or SCP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:
> 
> a.if appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private, in pay level A of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction;
> b.if appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of corporal or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction.
> c.if commissioned directly to the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant from a non-commissioned member rank, in pay level D of Table “B” or “C” to this instruction.(CDS 1 April 2003)
> 
> 
> 204.215(4) (Transfer to the pilot occupation) An officer on transfer to the pilot military occupation in the rank of captain, and who meets the conditions of paragraph (1), shall be paid at the rate of pay for the pay increment determined under paragraph (3) that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the officer was receiving on the day immediately prior to meeting the conditions of paragraph (1).  NOT YOU



D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152  & 204.21535)



> 204.211(2) (Pay on promotion) In accordance with paragraphs (3) and (4) of CBI 204.04 (Rate of Pay on Promotion), an officer shall be paid on promotion at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank, pay increment and pay level as set out in the tables to this instruction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:
> 
> a.the basic rate of pay for the member’s new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or
> b.the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the date of the promotion, plus an amount equal to the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.
> 
> 204.04(4) (General Service Officer - Officer Entry Plans) If an officer is paid under CBI 204.211 (Pay – General Service Officers – Officer Entry Plans –Lieutenant, Second Lieutenant and Officer Cadet) and is entitled to receive pay level D on promotion to a higher rank, but the rate calculated under subparagraph (3)(b) of this instruction exceeds the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in pay level D in Table "B" or "C", as applicable for the officer’s new rank, the officer shall be paid under pay level E in that table in accordance with paragraph (3).    NOT YOU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 204.21135 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002
> 
> 204.215(2) (Rate of pay – lieutenant-colonel and major) A pilot in the rank of lieutenant-colonel or major shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank and pay increment in Table "A" to this instruction.    NOT YOU
> 
> 204.21535 - REPEALED BY TB ON 2 MAY 2002 EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2002
Click to expand...


----------



## OkanaganHeat

I do realize that it does follow under the following:

204.211(7) (Rate of pay – CEOTP) An officer to whom the CEOTP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:

a.for an officer in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant
i.with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction, or
ii.with former non-commissioned member service and appointed to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction; and
b.in the rank of officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "A" to this instruction.

My question was if there was a time limit with regard to prior service. I do realize that it is either level B or D and only wanted to clarify as it does seem to be level D. Since I do not have access to other documents that would explain any time limits which  I was unsure of. I have found that many of my previous courses and experience are no longer valid due to time and this caused me to have the question.


----------



## George Wallace

Although some of your qualifications may not be current, they may still mean something towards what you are asking.

Filtering through all this mumbo jumbo of regulations can be frustrating and raise one's blood pressure.  It is usually best to find a RMS clerk with a good grounding in the old Fin Clerk Trade to decypher what your entitlements are.......And I mean a good clerk; not one like the PO1 this crusty old Crewman had to explain all his entitlements to in order to finalize a Claim.


----------



## armybuck041

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Based on what I have seen from my peers who were CFRs, it seems to me that if you are a Sgt/P2 CFR then you go straight to Lt/SLt, anything lower ends up as a 2Lt/ASLt.
> 
> I know a number of WOs that went straight to captain also.



What MOC was that? 

As a former WO, I ended up doing the 2Lt followed by Lt in the same day. 

Going from being a 043 WO to 24A Lt, I am required to do 3 years in Rank before promotion to Capt. Mind you the Lt "E" Pay Scale isn't exactly a boot in the junk, but the YO thing gets old quick.


----------



## aesop081

armybuck041 said:
			
		

> As a former WO, I ended up doing the 2Lt followed by Lt in the same day.



Say it aint so......say it aint so......


----------



## armybuck041

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Say it aint so......say it aint so......



Like the old saying "Careful what you wish for......" 

Its a bit of a strange dynamic when the "Lt" is one of the oldest guys in the Troop, but at least no one is getting me with the old "Pressure Gauge for the Road Wheel, Box of Grid Squares, Squelch Fluid" routine


----------



## aesop081

armybuck041 said:
			
		

> Like the old saying "Careful what you wish for......"



I never pictured you as the officer type but good for you. You will bring the corps alot in that capacity.



> Its a bit of a strange dynamic when the "Lt" is one of the oldest guys in the Troop, but at least no one is getting me with the old "Pressure Gauge for the Road Wheel, Box of Grid Squares, Squelch Fluid" routine



Or the old "skyhook" bit in the BB lines  ;D


----------



## bdb1231

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/payscales-131#officersregular-1

Officer Cadet are divided into two types: ROTP, OCTP-NFS.
What are the difference?

How come under Second Lieutenant there are the two ROTP and OCTP-NFS plans?
How can you under either one of the training plans when your a second lieutenant already?
I thought you can only second lieutenant when you finish your academics education, is it true?

And what does the Basic, 1, 2, 3..........10 stand for at the top of the chart?


----------



## Wookilar

ROTP and OCTP are 2 different entry plans. The Recruit Center can explain the differences better, but essentially, ROTP sends you to university where the OCTP expects that you already have a degree.

There are a number of commissioning plans, each has their own pay scale, not all of them are linked to university training; some are for Non-Commissioned members all ready serving in the CF. Depending on what rank they held when they get their Queen's Commission, you go to 2nd Lt or Lt (or Capt for that matter).

The numbers at the top are called "Incentive." Basically, you get a raise every year you are in a certain rank until you "max out," reach the top incentive.

Wook


----------



## Pusser

Wookilar is correct, but I'll add that even though you may have finished your training, your entry plan will still affect your pay until you get promoted to captain or lieutenant(N).


----------



## agc

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> I thought you can only second lieutenant when you finish your academics education, is it true?



No.  Sometimes it is possible to be promoted to a commissioned rank, prior to the completion of a degree.



			
				Wookilar said:
			
		

> ...essentially, ROTP sends you to university where the OCTP (aka CEOTP) expects that you already have a degree complete a degree on your own time.



If selected under the CEOTP, one can be commissioned after completion of BMOQ.


----------



## whiskey19

I'm wondering if anyone might know who to get hold of to request T4 tax forms for the '08 and '09 tax years. I've called everywhere from St. Jean to Meaford to Borden, and keep getting the usual run-around and passing of the buck, and not being "in" anymore certainly isn't helping things.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## agc

I would contact the release pay office.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cu-cn/index-eng.asp


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Get hold of Revenue Canada. They should have them.


----------



## bdb1231

I have a university Bachelor degree already. So I guess I can try to enter the OCTP-NFS, right?

Why are there 4 columns for OCTP-NFS pay scale?
I understand that ROTP pay scale has 4 columns representing the 4 years you spend on your undergrad, but how come OCTP-NFS has 4 columns also?


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> I have a university Bachelor degree already. So I guess I can try to enter the OCTP-NFS, right?
> 
> Why are there 4 columns for OCTP-NFS pay scale?
> I understand that ROTP pay scale has 4 columns representing the 4 years you spend on your undergrad, but how come OCTP-NFS has 4 columns also?



Since you already have a degree you would enter under the DEO program, and essentially be a 2Lt until you finish your occupation training (which is why you see 6 incentives there). 

Cheers

T2B


----------



## bdb1231

Do you need a good GPA to apply to officer? I don't want to post my GPA here, but all I can say is it is low....

I want to apply to the Canadian Forces and serve for the country. So am I better off just apply to be NCM than Officer because my GPA is low and my French is bad and I don't have good work experience?

I don't want to apply to officer and go through the interview, aptitude test, language test, blood test and fitness test, and 6 months later I realize I cannot be officer because my GPA is low and I don't have good work experience. And I have to wait until next year to apply again to be NCM.

Or 6 months after I apply I realize I couldn't be officer and they offer me NCM positions to choose from, but only the boring jobs are left, all the interesting jobs are taken......I only get to pick from jobs that no one wants...

Anyone know what I should do?


----------



## ModlrMike

Start the application process and see where it takes you. At some point you will be asked what occupation you want, and you'll be told if you qualify or not. You can make your decision then. We are not equipped to answer the questions you've posed. Much will also depend on what occupations are open at the time of your application... which we also don't know.


----------



## Pusser

If during the application process you decide another path is more suitable to you (be it NCM or officer) you can change it.  You don't have to wait to be rejected and then re-apply.  With respect to your GPA, the important part at this point is that you have a degree - pretty much end of story.  I wouldn't get too much wrapped around the axle on that issue.  It's the same thing with your French.  We will send you on courses for that.  The biggest concern I would have right now if I were you is your writing.  Your post is not very well-written and officers need be able to write better than that (notwithstanding that some don't).


----------



## Blackadder1916

From CRA's website

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/slps/menu-eng.html


> Information slips - T4 and other slips
> 
> Slips are prepared by your employer, payer, or administrator. You should have received most of your slips and receipts by the end of February. However, T3, T5013, and T5013A slips do not have to be sent before the end of March.
> 
> If you have not received, or have lost or misplaced a slip for the current year, you have to ask your employer, or the issuer of the slip, for a copy.
> 
> *You can obtain current year and prior year Old Age Security (OAS), Employment Insurance (EI) and Canada Pension Plan (CPP) tax slips electronically. This secure service is found on the Service Canada Web site.*
> 
> Clickable slips
> The following is a list of some of the slips you may receive.
> 
> T4, Statement of Remuneration Paid
> T4A, Statement of Pension, Retirement, Annuity, and Other Income
> T4A(OAS), Statement of Old Age Security
> T4A(P), Statement of Canada Pension Plan Benefits
> T4E, Statement of Employment Insurance and Other Benefits
> T4RSP, Statement of RRSP Income
> T5007, Statement of Benefits
> RC62, Universal Child Care Benefit statement
> RC210, Working Income Tax Benefit advance payments statement
> 
> What if you do not have your slip?
> If you have to file a return for 2010, make sure you file it on time even if your slip is missing.
> 
> If you know that you will not receive your slip on time to file your return, attach a note to your paper return stating the payer's name and address, the type of income involved, and what you are doing to get the slip. Use any stubs or statements you may have to calculate the income you have to report and any related deductions and credits you can claim. Attach the stubs or statements to your paper return. If you are filing electronically, keep all of your documents in case we ask to see them.
> 
> *Obtaining a slip for prior years
> If you are filing a tax return for a prior year, and you have not received, or have lost or misplaced your information slips for that year, you can call 1-800-959-8281 for a copy of your slips for that year.*


----------



## StonedViper

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> Since you already have a degree you would enter under the DEO program, and essentially be a 2Lt until you finish your occupation training (which is why you see 6 incentives there).
> 
> Cheers
> 
> T2B



Just out of curiosity ie; if you enter as a DEO 2nd Lt. and max out on your 6th year will you be then promoted to Lt.? and continue on the 7th year pay as a Lt.? or you're going back to basic pay for Lt.?


----------



## Wookilar

No. If you max out in Incentives, you stay at that incentive level until promoted. Happens all the time, to all rank levels.

That being said, if you are a 2Lt for 7 years, you may be doing something slightly wrong  ;D 

_Most_ people are a 2Lt for 1 year, Lt for 2 years before promotion to Capt. The two largest factors affecting this time in rank are: 1) Do you have a degree?; and, 2) What Commissioning program are you in?

Wook


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

StonedViper said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity ie; if you enter as a DEO 2nd Lt. and max out on your 6th year will you be then promoted to Lt.? and continue on the 7th year pay as a Lt.? or you're going back to basic pay for Lt.?



To get Lt you need to be MOC-qualified and have the time in. DEOs often get promoted to Captain upon or soon after graduation from their MOC training since they have enough time built up in training (you build time for 2Lt and Lt). You need three years as a 2Lt/Lt to get to Captain. If you can't pass MOC training for whatever reason and they keep you around you stay as a 2Lt until you pass MOC training for something. 

Cheers


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> Do you need a good GPA to apply to officer? I don't want to post my GPA here, but all I can say is it is low....
> 
> I want to apply to the Canadian Forces and serve for the country. So am I better off just apply to be NCM than Officer because my GPA is low and my French is bad and I don't have good work experience?
> 
> I don't want to apply to officer and go through the interview, aptitude test, language test, blood test and fitness test, and 6 months later I realize I cannot be officer because my GPA is low and I don't have good work experience. And I have to wait until next year to apply again to be NCM.
> 
> Or 6 months after I apply I realize I couldn't be officer and they offer me NCM positions to choose from, but only the boring jobs are left, all the interesting jobs are taken......I only get to pick from jobs that no one wants...
> 
> Anyone know what I should do?



Its your life and you are the one who has to make the decision. Having said that, if you have a BA then don't get too worked up about the GPA. If you want to be an officer and meet the prerequisites then you may as well go ahead and apply as a DEO.


----------



## whiskey19

I love this site! CRA was the way to go.. thanks for all the help guys!!!


----------



## nickanick

Would it be a "waste" if I'm holding a degree, yet I'm applying to NCM?
DEO seems to be the best plan for graduates isn't it?


----------



## infantryian

I dont think it is necessarily a waste. The course of getting a degree CAN teach people a lot about themselves, their limitations, and external subject matter. These are useful skills in life, even if you decide that a NCM is the right fit for you.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Lots of NCM's have degree's,...they aren't that special.


----------



## George Wallace

nickanick said:
			
		

> Would it be a "waste" if I'm holding a degree, yet I'm applying to NCM?
> DEO seems to be the best plan for graduates isn't it?



Too many equate a Degree as signifying that they are a leader.  It doesn't.   Many NCMs hold Degrees, some multiple Degrees.  Some NCMs have more education than their officers.   I personally know a Pte who holds a PhD.  Most of the NCMs who work for me hold Masters Degrees.   Their educations are far from being a waste.


----------



## Dissident

As above.

My wife has a university degree and no interest in going officer. 

Some people get wrapped up in the whole officer thing. I say go for the job that makes you happy.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

nickanick said:
			
		

> Would it be a "waste" if I'm holding a degree, yet I'm applying to NCM?
> DEO seems to be the best plan for graduates isn't it?



If you want to go officer and have a degree plus the other pre-requisites then DEO is indeed the most suitable entry plan for you. Now, if you aren't keen on being a leader right away then don't apply for officer. Just know that the process to go from NCM to officer is not an easy thing and you should think in terms of years to go officer if you enroll as an NCM and decide to go the officer route.

In the Reserves it is extremely common for NCMs at all rank levels to hold degrees or be in the process of actively acquiring one. In the Regular Force combat arms it is less common (but there certainly are some). Regardless, if you apply for Regular Force NCM your degree won't be wasted. You are the one who will live your life, so look at your options and make a decision.

In any case having a degree doesn't make you a leader. It just happens to be one of the requirements (although there are exceptions) for being an officer in the regular force.

Best of luck!


----------



## dangles

On another note,

To what extent will my degree put me ahead of those other NCM hopefuls who hold just a highschool diploma? I will be applying for infantry.


----------



## nickanick

Just to be a little materialistic here.
Which pay scale will be higher? Between NCM and DEO
In 2 years time, from training phrase.


----------



## George Wallace

nickanick said:
			
		

> Just to be a little materialistic here.
> Which pay scale will be higher? Between NCM and DEO
> In 2 years time, from training phrase.



 ???


----------



## infantryian

nickanick said:
			
		

> Just to be a little materialistic here.
> Which pay scale will be higher? Between NCM and DEO
> In 2 years time, from training phrase.



I know the information can be REALLY hard to find, but I managed to dig it up.

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/payscales-131


----------



## jwtg

nickanick said:
			
		

> Just to be a little materialistic here.
> Which pay scale will be higher? Between NCM and DEO
> In 2 years time, from training phrase.



You say that like 'NCM' and 'DEO' both have a pay scale unique to themselves.  Don't forget that Spec 1/Spec 2 pay will apply to certain trades, as well as a DEO Pilot, DEO Medical, DEO Dental, DEO LOG will find themselves making different amounts of cash.

'NCM' and 'DEO' are therefore not measurable pay levels.

I think you'll find that if you follow the incentives level and read a bit about length of training/timing of promotions in different trades, you can make an educated guess at what rank you'll be in 2 years and what the pay will be (I'm not giving you any hints  ).

Google a bit, figure in any allowances certain trades are entitled to and then maybe factor in PLD for likely postings and you can make a guess at the approximate income of your trade of interest after 2 years!

Good luck, do the math yourself!  :nod:


----------



## Acer Syrup

nickanick said:
			
		

> Just to be a little materialistic here.
> Which pay scale will be higher? Between NCM and DEO
> In 2 years time, from training phrase.



While the pay scale is obviously higher for DEO, what isn't blatantly obvious is how you will be paid during BMOQ. You will hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt while at CFLRS until you graduate and recieve your commission to 2Lt / ASlt. As already pointed out there is no OCdt DEO pay level because... you will be paid the OCdt OTCP-NFS rate until you graduate. You will then recieve retro-active pay to the 2Lt (DEO) pay scale for the time you spent during BMOQ.

Confusing? This had our whole NOAB going for like half an hour.


----------



## Wookilar

OK, question on DEO pay...trying to sort out the Army one untrained officer at a time here.

Need some translation of CBI's. I am being told by Base Pay Office that untrained 2Lt's are held to IPC 2.  However, no one can seem to find me a reference for that. I have found this:

204.211(11) (Limitations on pay increments)
Despite CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) and paragraph (12), the number of pay increment increases may not exceed the maximum number of pay increments for the applicable pay level and table to this instruction, and is further limited as follows:
(a) in the case of an officer cadet who is paid under pay level B in Table "A", to a maximum of one increase; and
(b) in the case of a second lieutenant who is paid under Table "B", to a maximum of one increase, and in the case of a lieutenant who is paid under Table "C", to a maximum of three increases.

Fine, no problem there. Except, I have one confirmed 2Lt that is at IPC 2, therefore, has gotten 2 increases (Basic to IPC 1; 1 to 2). So, said 2Lt must be on Table "C" as Table "B" only gets one increase.

Now, where the hell does this "held to IPC 2" come from? Anyone have a ref for it? Base Pay has not been able to satisfy me and has dumped it back into my lap to work out with the Chief Clerk. He's an old Fin WO and it doesn't make any sense to him either.

Any help or advice you can give this old Tn guy would be appreciated. Before I bump this up to DCBA I would like some more brains to look at it.

Thanks.

Wook


----------



## Adamant

You already had the ref....ouch edited to remove

Table B is the 2LT pay scale, it' includes all the rows, my understanding

Second edit to add:

As a 2Lt I rec'd more than 1 IPC increase.  It was due to a delay in training out of my control.  There is a CBI ref for that as well but it escapes me at the moment.  It had to be requested through AF TRG equivalent to CM for untrained people.


----------



## TN2IC

Just wondering as a CF member, can we declare us as employed tradesperson. I was thinking if we can claim after market chest rigs? Or boots too? Boot polish, hair cuts, supplements? What has other people done before? I'm just thinking about it. Some rigs and boots can cost a fair bit of money.

Your thoughts?

Regards,
TN


----------



## MJP

It has been discussed before.  None of those are claimable.  Some people have gotten away with it in the past, others not so lucky.


----------



## smale436

While trying to explain to a co-worker that attempting to claim haircuts was just asking for an audit, I showed him this quote directly from the H & R Block Canada website's "Unusual Tax Decuctions Denied" section. 

   "The cost of a haircut is not deductible against employment income even when you are a serviceman and you are required to get one every two weeks. (Rouillard v. The Queen [2000] 4 C.T.C. 2065)" (You can google it and find further info on a site called taxwiki.ca)

As far as drycleaning DEU's, do you think  someone working at Tim Hortons should claim laundry soap to wash spilled coffee out of their uniform?


----------



## Pusser

As a general rule, the only clothing expenses you can deduct on your income tax are those items that you are required to have in order to actually do your job (i.e. you cannot legally work without them).  In practice, this seems to be limited to safety gear (e.g. a construction worker who has to buy his/her safety boots can claim that cost).  Considering that CF members are considered to be provided with all equipment they need to do their jobs, there really isn't anything that we can claim for (and no, you can't claim for your mess dress - it does not qualify).

I know that it was an old question above (but I just read it).  TD allowances are NOT income and are not taxed in any way and should not appear on your T4.


----------



## Artemis2

Does anyone know how to set it up so that are pay stubs are emailed to us? Thanks


----------



## Occam

Did you check for responses to the first time you asked the question?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106429/post-1151905.html#msg1151905


----------



## Artemis2

Sorry, missed those. Didn't realize it had actually posted the first time as I posted it in the wrong section. Thanks for setting me on the right track.


----------



## cnobbs84

Good day,

If this is in the wrong area please move. Proceeding I am a Private Recruit getting ready to head off to BMQ and I was wondering about the pay grades on the CF website. As we are informed when we get the offer is do you know how much you will be making and the answer is yes we do. However with the 2 other pay grades is where I have a couple questions as I have heard different things from credible sources. Do we get a pay grade increase for Private once we leave BMQ and head off to elemental training or are the pay grades based on you years of service. 

Reason I ask is the information is conflicting from the RC and people already at BMQ that I have been speaking with.

Best Regards


----------



## PuckChaser

Pay increases are for each year in rank, and promotion. No extra pay for finishing BMQ. Your sources that told you that are not credible.


----------



## cnobbs84

Thank you kindly. I figured it was yearly however not everything is explained clearly or correctly at all RC. Better be safe to check then sorry.


----------



## Tollis

Also the pay grade posted on the Forces website are out of date the CF received a pay raise a few months ago, Private 1 pay is now 2750.


----------



## Occam

Anyone telling you that you get an increase on completion of BMQ is probably thinking back to 1998 and prior when we had Pte(R) and Pte(B) rates of pay - which no longer exist.  Since then, you start out at Pte IPC 1, and one year later, you go to Pte IPC 2.

The recruiting site seldom has the full information on rates of pay.  For the most accurate and recent pay rates, go to the DGCB site at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/index-eng.asp.


----------



## ttlbmg

Similar question to the one initially posted. As I was looking at the pay scales for basic officers, what pay scale would a DEO officer cadet be? There are two current categories, officer cadet ROTP (which is not DEO obviously) and OCTP (officer cadet training program). Then, the transition to 2nd LT, there are both DEO and OCTP categories. When researching the OCTP, I found that this was in regards to the high school training program. Can anyone explain these distinctions in pay?


----------



## PuckChaser

It says you're on the "C" schedule, I'm pretty sure DEO officers are commissioned right away and do BMOQ as 2Lt, hence the extra IPC levels and extra pay.


----------



## northernboy_24

You will get paid as a 2 Lt but will be at basic training as a O.Cdt. and will not get promoted till graduation week.


----------



## Habs

I know if you're in the reserves and you're doing BMQ and you already have your degree, you should be a 2LT while doing basic training, getting paid as a 2LT, and have your 1 big bar on your epaulette/slip on.

You will be an OCdt if you're working on your degree, but don't have it yet.


----------



## KatFleming

Short run down, point form of issues.

Husband joined Aug 2009
Married, 1 child at time of signing. We signed decleration and provided a documentation of such.
Second child born in Sept 2010
Completed taxes Feb 2012 and were told by CRA that taxes being withheld due to husband claiming wife and children but employer stating no spouse and children.
SPoke with CRA, said they would rectify once employer changes tax coding ( he is being taxed at code 1, must be taxed at code 9 for FEDERAL, and TAxed at code 'E" for PROVINCIAL )
After months of dealing with payroll clerks and being given run around, ie "we don't change TD1 forms", "all members are taxed as single", etc etc, the MWO has now looked into the matter and is having it changed to spouse and 2 dependants.


Question is:

He has been taxed as single for 3 years now, and paying almost $200 too much each month. Who owes him this money, or will he ever see it? The CRA says his employer must pay him retro, and his employer says it is CRA who owes him....once again back to square one.


----------



## dapaterson

Not certain I understand the problem.

The CF pay system withholds taxes.  If they withhold too much, it comes back as a refund when the tax return is filed.

If it's always too much, the member can complete the TD1 form (plus provincial equivalent for the province of residence) to change the deductions; that would go through the pay office, and take effect once it's input into the system.  Subsequent pay should reflect the revised deductions.  Again, if prior deductions were too high the difference would be recovered on filing annual tax returns.


----------



## KatFleming

CRA has refunded his taxes based on what his EMPLOYER has imputed, ie single no dependents.
He now OWES the CRA a few thousand dollars as they have audited him for the previous 3 tax years. 

This is a mistake on the part of payroll.

SO I am going to assume that once payroll fixes this, CRA will refund my husband the owing amounts from previous years, and adjust my child tax, our HST from past 3 years ect? Is there anything else this can affect?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Sorry, this is still not making sense to me....

Payroll just sends money to the Govt., everything else is based on what paperwork you send........


----------



## KatFleming

Ok, simply put ( as I used to be reserve pay clerk )

Military members fill out TD1 forms
most forget to update them when their situation changes ie. get married/divorced, have children, wives lose/gain employment, children turn 18 or move out etc.

My husband filled one out when he joined the military and it stated he had 2 dependent and 1 child.
For some reason, the military has him down as single, no dependents for tax purposes.
He has been overpaying his federal tax by close to $200 a month for 3 years.
At tax time, we claim married, 2 children. We get next to nothing back every year and have not received an HST check nor have our child benefits been anything to write home about. We assumed this was normal.
This year we received a letter from the CRA stating that he was being audited. We had claimed that he had lived in one province, I in another. I lived in Ontario and he in NB due to parental leave and courses. We did not live together for 11 months. 
They sent paperwork asking us for proof of marriage and to fill out paperwork for our children. We had to prove both children were his! We wend everything in and then we receive a phone call from CRA. They state that DND has husband down as single no dependents for 3 years. They even have us go online with them and follow pages upon pages of gov sites and fill out things and print them off to show how things SHOULD reflect. We had to take them in to pay office. Things are slowly working out. 

It is a HUGE mess to say the least. All this mess because of one little mistake. We had a screw up like this back around 2008-09 when I was posted in Borden. The military ended up paying the member and dealing the the CRA themselves for payment. None of my business, but things change on a daily basis, so I was just looking for input.


----------



## captloadie

I would love for a current RMS clerk to chime in on this and answer one question for me: What does my marital status and number of dependants have to do with the taxes taken from a members pay? I have been married and had three kids since I joined, and not once did I notice my taxes deducted from pay change, unless a pay increase was involved. 

However, the OP must realize that the little mistake sounds like it was was magnified because some documents weren't properly submitted by herself or her spouse. CRA doesn't find out about your family situation from an employer, they find out about it from you. 

Are these children from a different marriage? Is child support or alimony somehow involved? These would be the only times that I know of that the CF would get involved when dealing with how pay, garnished wages, and taxes etc.


----------



## dapaterson

TD1 Forms are online at: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/formspubs/frms/td1-eng.html

You can reduce taxes withheld at source by declaring that you have children; note that only one spouse can claim children.  If you provide a TD1 to your pay office you can get your taxes adjusted.  It will mean a smaller refund.


In this case, if I understand:  Until now, the CF has been withholding taxes based on your husband beign single.  Normally, he would get back excess tax paid when he files his return, but because you and he were filing with different provinces CRA called things into question. 

I am not an admin god, but I think you need to confirm where your husband should have been filing taxes for times he was away on course.  It may be that although he was living at CFB Tisdale, Saskatchewan while on course (for example), his residence was really Bracebridge, Ontario for income tax purposes.

SISIP financial services offers services and support to CF members at no cost; it may be worthwhile to talk to them about your situation.


----------



## KatFleming

Thanks

My husband has always been the one to claim our children and all extras. We have been dealing with SISIP for about a year now, with RRSP's etc. Even our rep was a little disturbed by this info. I am just glad that it is overpayment by him, instead of not paying enough. I have seen how that can hurt families


----------



## armyvern

KatFleming said:
			
		

> Thanks
> 
> My husband has always been the one to claim our children and all extras. We have been dealing with SISIP for about a year now, with RRSP's etc. Even our rep was a little disturbed by this info. I am just glad that it is overpayment by him, instead of not paying enough. I have seen how that can hurt families



That, then, may be exactly your issue.

Both my Service spouse and I pay taxes from our pay as "single" as this ensures that we will owe nothing at tax time. We file our taxes as "married" each and every year - have claimed childcare etc ... we have NEVER had a problem as one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Who does your taxes for you? CRA is very clear that the spouse with the lesser income (even if that income is zero) must be the one who claims dependent and their write-offs for childcare, sport activities etc. Check out the income tax guide as an example. Line 214 to be exact. Here is a link to T778 (Childcare Deductions), the only exceptions to "lesser income must claim deductions for dependents" occurs if you fall into either Part C or D of the form.

As you stated you were ResF, I will assume that you actually earn less than your spouse, yet he is the one claiming the write-offs (by your post above); Yep, that will cause an audit and the owing of some monies ... especially if you don't fall into category C or D of the form (medically incapable of caring for them [suspect not if you are ResF] or enrolled as a fulltime/part time student at a recognized educational institution). If that's the case, be thankful they are only looking for their money back and not levying a charge of income tax fraud.

Either way, it has nothing to do with the CF or the pay office as CRA doesn't care whether your employer deducts you as single or married --- only that, at the end of the year, they get what they are owed based upon your actual marital status and your claims/deductions being filed as per regulation.


----------



## KatFleming

Just for clarification, I not my husband is the breadwinner lol
I have made more than he,l even being ResB, and have since we began our relationship. I held 2 jobs for 11 years and have only been a non active member for 2 years now


----------



## George Wallace

KatFleming said:
			
		

> Just for clarification, I not my husband is the breadwinner lol
> I have made more than he,l even being ResB, and have since we began our relationship. I held 2 jobs for 11 years and have only been a non active member for 2 years now



No matter if he is or you are, the facts do not change.  I am surprised that you claim to have been a Reserve Fin Clerk and this is not common knowledge to you.


----------



## bridges

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am surprised that you claim to have been a Reserve Fin Clerk and this is not common knowledge to you.



 :facepalm:   I was a Fin Clk and then Log O(Fin) for 19 years and hadn't heard of the issue the OP raised, nor that the lower-income spouse must be the one to claim such deductions.  Financial administration is a wide-ranging field even just within DND, let alone the GoC as a whole.  The OP came for advice, and got it - let's leave it at that.


----------



## DAA

captloadie said:
			
		

> I would love for a current RMS clerk to chime in on this and answer one question for me: What does my marital status and number of dependants have to do with the taxes taken from a members pay? I have been married and had three kids since I joined, and not once did I notice my taxes deducted from pay change, unless a pay increase was involved.



ding ding......The CF, as your employer, is obligated to deduct taxes at source (ie; directly from your pay) and remit these to CRA.  The amount that is deducted monthly is based on your system status (ie; the Tax Status in CCPS).  A single member would by default pay the most as they have little by way of Tax Credits to claim when filing personal tax returns.  By providing source documents to your supporting Pay Office/OR, you can have your Federal and Provincial Tax details updated which in turn can either reduce the amount of taxes at source or increase them. (eg; by adding your spouse and or children, you will pay "less" than a single member).

Adding dependants to your Tax Status is a default function completed by your Orderly Room (if they remember to do this) when you report getting married or have a child.  You are NOT obligated to change this and can continue to pay taxes as a "single member", in which case when you file your annual Tax Return and claim the "spousal" and or "dependant" amounts, you will receive a "refund" from CRA.  Some people choose to leave theirs as single and some choose to add their dependants.  Most other changes require completion of a TD1 or an Annual Letter from CRA.

If your spouse is paying as a "single member" and then claiming the appropriate deductions at tax time (ie; you and the children), then he should be getting money back.  Have your spouse tell his supporting Orderly Room that he would like to see the "Tax Menu" on his Pay Account.  This info can be seen on the "F5" screen or at system code "FZQEEE (View Tax Summary)".  They can also do a "Simulated Tax Change" to see what the impact is.

At the end of the day, the CF merely deducts tax at source and then it is your responsibility to file a Tax Return with CRA.  Tax rates vary from province to province and if your OUTCAN, your paying based on your last province of residence prior to leaving Canada.  The tax rates DO NOT CHANGE for TD and shouldn't change for Attach Posting either.

On a side note, Res F Fin Clks work with a totally different system than that of the Reg F counterparts.


----------



## RLD

KatFleming said:
			
		

> This year we received a letter from the CRA stating that he was being audited. We had claimed that he had lived in one province, I in another. I lived in Ontario and he in NB due to parental leave and courses. We did not live together for 11 months.



I suspect this situation has little to do with DND deductions but comes down to satisfying CRA on several issues including Residency (provincial), Marital Status and Child Custody. The fact that you and your spouse/common law partner filed in different provinces probably tripped a flag with the CRA computer and they decided to investigate the situation. This is not unusual and doesn't necessarily mean anything was wrong but CRA usually gives taxpayers a short period (30 days) to satisfy them regarding their questions and if the taxpayer doesn't they will reverse any credits/deductions claimed and send out a bill. I have seen this a number of times in the reverse situation i.e. a single/seperated/divorced parent claiming the amount for an eligible dependant having to prove that there is no common law partner or spouse.

Regarding Residency: Provincial tax rates and credits vary quite significantly and could significantly impact your taxes if CRA determines your residency for tax purposes differently that you and your spouse/common law partner. If your spouse/partner was away on TD or attach posting then CRA would likely still consider him/her to still be resident in the same province as you even if he/she was away on 31 Dec. On the other hand if he was posted and the family remained behind you could probably claim different provinces.  CRA looks at things like did he/she maintain a seperate residence (e.g. rent an apartment) and move most of his belongings or just take a few belongings and live on base. Did he/she get a driver's licence in the new province etc? If they consider that he/she was in NB for employment but still had his primary residential ties in ONT they may require him to file in ONT.

Regarding Marital Status: Since you are residing seperately CRA may ask for proof of marital status. If you are married then it should be pretty easy. If you are common law it might be a little more difficult. Did you file an RC65 (change of marital status) with CRA when you were married/bacame common law? If not that may be the problem. Filing an RC 65 now should help but they may ask for some supporting documentation e.g. a letter from someone in authority (e.g. Commanding Officer, a lawyer - mother friend etc won't cut it) who has knowledge of your marital situation. If this is what they are questioning find out from them what they consider proof. 

Regarding Child Custody: Again CRA may ask for proof  that the children are eligible for the credits being claimed. If they are you and your partner's by blood then a birth certificate should suffice. If there is another parent in the picture CRA may ask for proof that the other parent is not going to claim any credits for the child, i.e. a letter from the other parent stating they are not claiming the child. If the children live with you they may be questioning why your spouse/partner is claiming the children. Tax regulations state that if the child resides with only one parent then only that parent can claim the child but I am pretty sure that is only intended for seperated/divorced situations. If you are married common law then if you claimed them and weren't able to use the credits yourself you would be able to transfer them to your spouse/partner so the net benefit to the family is exactly the same. You indicate you did not live together for 11 months. I assume this was due to the employment situation and not due to a breakdown in the relationship. If there was a relationship breakdown and you claimed an amount for an eligible dependant then your spose/partner could not claim the child who was claimed as the eligible dependant. The other thing to watch for with children is child care. Only the lower income spouse/partner can claim (with a couple exceptions).

As others have pointed out this doesn't seem to have much to do with DND deductions at source although changing provinces can make for a big tax surprise if you move from a lower tax province to a higher tax province and don't factor it into your withholdings at source. The fact that your spouse/partner was claiming as single with his employer may have added to the alarm bells at CRA but it is not a conclusive fact in making any tax determination - many people do this with the intention of getting a nice refund. It seems like an issue to be sorted out with CRA and I would recommend getting in writing from CRA exactly what they are questioning and what proof you have to provide to satisfy them. If you still aren't clear and are talking a significant sum of money you might want to talk to a tax professional such as H&R Block or Liberty Tax. If you go this route be sure to explain the situation and ask for a senior tax professional who has experience in dealing with the CRA on these types of issues.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## armyvern

RLD said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Regarding Residency: Provincial tax rates and credits vary quite significantly and could significantly impact your taxes if CRA determines your residency for tax purposes differently that you and your spouse/common law partner. If your spouse/partner was away on TD or attach posting then CRA would likely still consider him/her to still be resident in the same province as you even if he/she was away on 31 Dec. On the other hand if he was posted and the family remained behind you could probably claim different provinces.  CRA looks at things like did he/she maintain a seperate residence (e.g. rent an apartment) and move most of his belongings or just take a few belongings and live on base. Did he/she get a driver's licence in the new province etc? If they consider that he/she was in NB for employment but still had his primary residential ties in ONT they may require him to file in ONT.
> 
> ...



To be clear on the yellow bit (my highlight), CRA is clear that if a military member is posted/TDd/Attach Posted away and leaves family behind (IR, course, unaccompanied etc), then the military member is considered to be a resident of the province where the family (DF&E) is located on 31 December and _must_ file taxes as such. 

Member's on IR _must_ file their taxes based upon where their family is located, not where they are located. Those IR guys are not paying "rent" at their location, rather the taxpayer is covering that for them; same as if they were in shacks while on course, TD, deployed on 31 Dec etc.


----------



## RLD

Agree ArmyVern. I was not as clear as I should have been. The point I was making is CRA does not just use location on 31 Dec to determine residency but also looks at residential ties. Location of dependants is a big one that is hard to top and in the situation described CRA would almost certainly determine that the province of residence for both is ONT since the family was in ONT. I was trying to make the point that there are other factors that can enter into the determination although none of these factors is disclosed in the info provided. On a positive note the ONT tax rates are generally lower than NB so it may be beneficial for both to claim ONT.


----------



## PiperDown

On my monthly pay statement I do not have a monetary deduction for provincial income tax.  This isn't something new, I have had a 0.00 amount entered in the provincial tax block on my pay statement for at least 5 years. 

But, according to the CRA wrbsite there is a tax rate for provinces.   I file my taxes each year, and indicate my province of employment. 


Any fin people care to explain ?


----------



## Char1991

PiperDown said:
			
		

> On my monthly pay statement I do not have a monetary deduction for provincial income tax.  This isn't something new, I have had a 0.00 amount entered in the provincial tax block on my pay statement for at least 5 years.
> 
> But, according to the CRA wrbsite there is a tax rate for provinces.   I file my taxes each year, and indicate my province of employment.
> 
> 
> Any fin people care to explain ?



There are three types of taxes in Canada; HST, GST, and PST.

HST is a combined provincial and federal tax rate.  Where as GST and PST are charged each in other provinces, except Albert with just GST.

Here's a link that shows what each province taxes

Basically, unless you are in a PST using province, you'll only ever pay HST which is called Federal tax on your pay slip.

Hope this helps.  

Edit: I'm talking sales tax.  Going back to bed before I post other crap.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Nice try, Charl- but no.

In most provinces, the Feds collect the provincial income tax on behalf of the province and remit it to that province. It is built into the federal tax deduction box as combined amount. So, your provincial tax box on your pay statement remains empty.

The only province that I am aware of where that is not the case, is Quebec.


----------



## klacquement

Char1991 said:
			
		

> There are three types of taxes in Canada; HST, GST, and PST.
> 
> HST is a combined provincial and federal tax rate.  Where as GST and PST are charged each in other provinces, except Albert with just GST.
> 
> Here's a link that shows what each province taxes
> 
> Basically, unless you are in a PST using province, you'll only ever pay HST which is called Federal tax on your pay slip.
> 
> Hope this helps.



Note that HST, GST, and PST are *sales* taxes.  PiperDown is referring to *income* taxes.  The rates depend on the province that he lives in.  I don't know why there would be nothing deducted though.  Where are you living, Piper?


----------



## PiperDown

Ontario.

I can't be sure what my deduction was ( if any ) when I was in MB 5 years ago.  ( I would have to check my pay statement archives which are locked away in another location )


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I'm recently from MB and I am reasonable certain that there was no provincial tax shown on my pay statement.

Are you, perhaps, getting this confused with your T4 slip, which will show how much provincial tax that you paid?


----------



## DAA

Your Monthly Pay Statement will only show Fed Tax.  Just the way it is done.  But rest assured, a portion of what you see, does go to your respective province.  The pay system takes into account your "province of employment" and adjusts itself accordingly.  Even the RPSR (Res F) Pay Statements do not show provincial tax, so I would not be worried about it.


----------



## bridges

DAA said:
			
		

> Your Monthly Pay Statement will only show Fed Tax.  Just the way it is done.  But rest assured, a portion of what you see, does go to your respective province.  The pay system takes into account your "province of employment" and adjusts itself accordingly.  Even the RPSR (Res F) Pay Statements do not show provincial tax, so I would not be worried about it.



 :nod:    The pay statements for civil servants don't show provincial tax either (at least, for those working outside Quebec).  There's a spot for it, but no amount listed.  The feds send that money to the province once you file your fed & provincial taxes (generally at the same time - but again, it's different in Qc).


----------



## Blackadder1916

bridges said:
			
		

> . . . . . The feds send that money to the province once you file your fed & provincial taxes (generally at the same time - but again, it's different in Qc).



Actually they "send that money" to the province of employment throughout the year.  The feds make 48 installments a year (4 times a month) to the provinces.


----------



## bridges

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Actually they "send that money" to the province of employment throughout the year.  The feds make 48 installments a year (4 times a month) to the provinces.



OK - thanks.  That's good to know.  

I guess for the OP, the important thing is that the feds settle the account as a result of the filing of taxes - as opposed to your employer sending the taxes directly to the province.  Again, exceptions for Quebec.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Well, I have a tax related question that may belong here since it's on topc:

I just got posted to Alberta from the beautiful province (aka La Belle Province aka Quebecistan) and I payed a lot of taxes last year so I asked the pay office in QC to take an extra $50 off my pay.  It is under "other deductions" and titled "extra quebec income tax".

I do not live there anymore so I do not need this deducted anymore.  I went to my BOR and we weren't quite sure of how to remove the allotment.

I was given a TD1 slip to fill out but the only option that looks like it fits what I want to do is on the second page and is a box to have "additional tax to be deducted".  I doubt this is the right place because that is theortically what is already happening. I want to reverse it.

Any ideas?


----------



## dapaterson

Submit the new TD1 without the "Additional Tax" box filled out.  Make sure the clerk knows that there is a change to your reqeust for additional tax.

That should take care of it.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Makes sense to me.. 

I was wondering though, I never filled that form out when I started it...  Is that a good or bad thing?

I was thinking of putting a -$50 to counteract but will follow your wise advice. Though I suspect a sticky note attached would help any questions?  or highlight the block?


----------



## bridges

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Makes sense to me..
> 
> I was wondering though, I never filled that form out when I started it...  Is that a good or bad thing?
> 
> I was thinking of putting a -$50 to counteract but will follow your wise advice. Though I suspect a sticky note attached would help any questions?  or highlight the block?



No sticky note - it will just fall off.  Either write your request right on the form, or write "see attached memo" and then attach a memo.


----------



## dapaterson

Strictly speaking, the former pay clerk should not have added the +$50 for deductions without the form on file - it must have been your charming personality and good looks...


----------



## captloadie

Did your T4 indicate the extra $600 at the end of the year? It sounds that by making it an other deduction, more work would have been required by the Pay staff, rather than adjusting it correctly in the pay system to automatically deduct the increased tax amount. 

Maybe someone was getting a $50 a month bonus in their pay account >


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Will the fact that this is "extra QUEBEC income tax" matter?

We have provincial taxes to pay separately.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Will the fact that this is "extra QUEBEC income tax" matter?
> 
> We have provincial taxes to pay separately.



Of course, QUEBEC always matters! [/sarcasm]

You may not remember filling out a TD-1 to have extra "Quebec provincial" tax deducted at source because the TD-1 has nothing to do with that province.  They have their own form to "Request to have additional tax deducted at source" (TP-1017-V ?).  Since Quebec is no longer your province of employment (or residence) all tax/QPP remittances to La Belle Province from your pay should be automatically stopped.  "Should" is the operative word; perhaps you should check, but it shouldn't require any new forms to cancel the additional amount.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

That's the issue for me.  Is this really an "official" deduction?  I mean, wouldn't I be seeing it somewhere else if it were the case?

This seems so simple but at the same time might end up complicated.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> That's the issue for me.  Is this really an "official" deduction?  I mean, wouldn't I be seeing it somewhere else if it were the case?
> 
> This seems so simple but at the same time might end up complicated.



I'm confused (which isn't uncommon).  What do you mean by "official" and "seeing it somewhere else"?  

There are standard amounts withheld at source for income tax, CPP/QPP, EI and remitted to CRA (or RRQ for Quebec provincial amounts).  They should be reflected on your paystub monthly in the appropriate boxes and similarly on the T4 slip and the RL-1 (for Quebec provincial amounts).  If the normal amount deducted for Quebec provincial income tax is "x" and you requested to have an additional "y" deducted, then the only indication on your pay statement should be an amount of "x+y" in the provincial tax box.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

And that's my point here.  On my pay statement, bottom left, "transaction details", "other deductions" there is a line that says "extra Quebec income tax".


----------



## Duckman54

Hi y'all...   Am I reading this right?
I was looking on the Forces.ca website at the payscales (Reg Force DEO officer  vs ROTP), and see something I can't make sense of, please help... I'm coming to the Forces with Science Degree in hand, paid outta my own pocket.   But I see the DEO pay is less than ROTP pay, and that just doesn't make sense to me.

If I understand this right, someone who's already absorbed 4 yrs' salary from the Forces, and had the Forces pay their entire 4-year university costs will be getting paid MORE than someone who's made that SIGNIFICANT investment of time and $$ on their own, without costing the Forces or taxpayers a penny??  (insert subsidized-education argument here! lol)

Reason I ask is because I'm a mature applicant, and would be having to leave a gov't union secure job to serve our country.  I'm not looking to get rich, just don't wanna hafta take a big step backwards $$-wise and bankrupt my family in order to do it!

Can someone tell me if I'm reading that right?


----------



## jwtg

You are reading that right.  You'll notice several pay scales.  DEO is on the low end.  Those coming from the ranks through a variety of programs are on the high end because of their previous time in and rates of pay at those ranks.

Like any organization, people with 4 years in (even if it is ROTP) will be paid more than people with 1 day in (like a DEO) when they hold the same rank.  ROTP, at 2Lt, makes more than DEO at 2Lt, because they have 4 years service, and presumably, BMOQ/several other courses out of the way already.


----------



## Shamrock

Duckman54 said:
			
		

> Hi y'all...   Am I reading this right?
> I was looking on the Forces.ca website at the payscales (Reg Force DEO officer  vs ROTP), and see something I can't make sense of, please help... I'm coming to the Forces with Science Degree in hand, paid outta my own pocket.   But I see the DEO pay is less than ROTP pay, and that just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> If I understand this right, someone who's already absorbed 4 yrs' salary from the Forces, and had the Forces pay their entire 4-year university costs will be getting paid MORE than someone who's made that SIGNIFICANT investment of time and $$ on their own, without costing the Forces or taxpayers a penny??  (insert subsidized-education argument here! lol)
> 
> Reason I ask is because I'm a mature applicant, and would be having to leave a gov't union secure job to serve our country.  I'm not looking to get rich, just don't wanna hafta take a big step backwards $$-wise and bankrupt my family in order to do it!
> 
> Can someone tell me if I'm reading that right?



These are individuals who have already committed 3-5 years' service and typically commission with some to all of their DP1 complete. Many will also have progressed well into DP2. The DEO applicant comissions with no committed service and no progress towards DP1 and, very rarely, with some progress towards DP2. 

Perhaps as a MATURE individual youll see the SIGNIFICANT return on investment the ROTP officer represents vs the DEO candidate who will likely spend most of his lieutenancy in the training system.


----------



## Ralph

Stand by for an B.A. grad's take on the (on average) math: a ROTP candidate spends 4 years as a OCdt earning a yearly average of $19,020 over that time. They finish at RMC/civvy U and are commissioned. Then they spend a minimum of 2 years as a 2Lt and 2 years as a Lt before they can become a Capt, at which time whichever entry program they came in on is moot. Total salary in 8 years = $301,464 or $37,683 annual.
The DEO joins and upon completion of BOTP (which should only take a few months as training often starts a few days after you join) is a 2nd Lt - and was paid like one even as an OCdt, if I remember correctly). If your next courses line up, you could be done in two years, at which point you're promoted to Lt, and need only spend one year in rank before becoming a captain. So within those same eight years, the DEO makes total $505,836/$63,230 per year. 
So from my math, it costs an RMC grad just over $200,000 for a degree, and they have to stay in the military long enough to "pay it back" or face financial penalties.
There's other ways that being a ring-knocker pays off, but in the initial years, this ain't one of them...


----------



## jwtg

Ralph said:
			
		

> Stand by for an B.A. grad's take on the (on average) math: a ROTP candidate spends 4 years as a OCdt earning a yearly average of $19,020 over that time. They finish at RMC/civvy U and are commissioned. Then they spend a minimum of 2 years as a 2Lt and 2 years as a Lt before they can become a Capt, at which time whichever entry program they came in on is moot. Total salary in 8 years = $301,464 or $37,683 annual.


I'm not disagreeing or anything, I'm just wondering where you get this info?  Is 2 yrs at 2Lt + 2 at Lt required time in for promotion to Captain for ROTP grads?  That's news to me.


----------



## Duckman54

Primarily to Shamrock...
Sorry you didn't care for my question... no intention of insulting anyone, just asking how this works, and perhaps why? I'm ALWAYS looking to learn something new, have no problem standing corrected, and most of all hate being misinformed...  Hence coming here, to the experts. I sincerely welcome being Set Straight on any topic if I'm wrong, or simply looking at it the wrong way. No need to feel threatened or belittled by someone asking a question or seeiking more info. NOTHING in my original post was meant to be critical of the process, merely inquisitive. Please don't object to someone asking a question, else the purpose of these forums is in doubt...


My life experience and training are thus far significant in the civilian world.  Science Degree, Commercial/Multi-IFR pilot license, advanced First Aid/Defib, Rescue SCUBA diver, Advanced Sailing, Taser (harder to get than firearms license these days!), munitions, Peace Officer, ERT advanced tactics, the list goes on I won't bore you...

...BUT in terms of military I'm a mere "applicant" and don't know your terms of DP1 or DP2, think I get the meaning, tho...  However, I clearly understand your argument that a fresh DEO 2LT has "1 day in" and thus no claims to seniority of any kind, and I don't dispute your point whatsoever that I would likely spend most of my Lieutenancy in some sort of training, given the time scales involved.

BUT...   that's no different than the ROTP grad example you just cited. This person, yes with 3-5 years in, has ALSO been in training the ENTIRE time, taken in approx $150-200k in salary, plus the cost of that 4-yr education  (approx another $25-30k?), and just getting out of University has also provided the taxpayer with zero tangible service by that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but University students (ROTP or otherwise) don't generally apply their trade until completed? Don't deploy? Don't perform resupply missions, fight, practice medicine, fly, etc?

Yes, you are absolutely correct that in between those 4-5 yrs of school, the ROTP candidate would have completed some of the courses I would be looking to begin on my 'Day 1', but we're talking a couple 7-9 week courses vs a 4-5 year degree.

As valuable as the ROTP program is, just basically wondering out loud why qualified applicants with education and life experience like myself, seem DIScouraged from applying (via payscales) in favor of someone fresh outta highschool with little skill foundation to build upon. Business-wise, seems best to recruit and retain qualified individuals... saves a LOT of time and $$, and our CF are no different than any other gov't outfit in experiencing serious budget pressures.  In my one case alone, CF would be saved 5 years and approx $250k...   and that's if I don't skip Primary Flight Training! (thus saving more time, freeing up a spot for another student, skipping the months of OJT before and/or after, etc)

This post is in no way meant to be arrogant, it's an honest inquiry. No need to squash someone's Profile cuz you disagree...


----------



## secondchance

Duckman54 said:
			
		

> Reason I ask is because I'm a mature applicant, and would be having to leave a gov't union secure job to serve our country.  I'm not looking to get rich, just don't wanna hafta take a big step backwards $$-wise and bankrupt my family in order to do it!?


My opinion is next.
I applied for DEO and I had a look to pay scale for DEO. For me DEO pay scale is acceptable and I agree with this amount of $$$ what Canadian Forces pays. It is not my business how much Canadian Forces pays to ROTP or another  program.Before today I even didn't check another programs.
There is budget  for DEO. 
For example DEO 2LT  $3764   and ROTP 2LT $4401.There is difference about 600$. If you believe it can bankrupt your family you need to think if you need this job. 
Everybody has different financial needs. In my opinion DEO pay scale is OK for me and it can not bankrupt my family.
In your case just think before apply.


----------



## jwtg

Duckman54 said:
			
		

> Primarily to Shamrock...
> Sorry you didn't care for my question... no intention of insulting anyone, just asking how this works, and perhaps why? I'm ALWAYS looking to learn something new, have no problem standing corrected, and most of all hate being misinformed...  Hence coming here, to the experts. I sincerely welcome being Set Straight on any topic if I'm wrong, or simply looking at it the wrong way. No need to feel threatened or belittled by someone asking a question or seeiking more info. NOTHING in my original post was meant to be critical of the process, merely inquisitive. Please don't object to someone asking a question, else the purpose of these forums is in doubt...
> 
> 
> My life experience and training are thus far significant in the civilian world.  Science Degree, Commercial/Multi-IFR pilot license, advanced First Aid/Defib, Rescue SCUBA diver, Advanced Sailing, Taser (harder to get than firearms license these days!), munitions, Peace Officer, ERT advanced tactics, the list goes on I won't bore you...
> 
> ...BUT in terms of military I'm a mere "applicant" and don't know your terms of DP1 or DP2, think I get the meaning, tho...  However, I clearly understand your argument that a fresh DEO 2LT has "1 day in" and thus no claims to seniority of any kind, and I don't dispute your point whatsoever that I would likely spend most of my Lieutenancy in some sort of training, given the time scales involved.
> 
> BUT...   that's no different than the ROTP grad example you just cited. This person, yes with 3-5 years in, has ALSO been in training the ENTIRE time, taken in approx $150-200k in salary, plus the cost of that 4-yr education  (approx another $25-30k?), and just getting out of University has also provided the taxpayer with zero tangible service by that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but University students (ROTP or otherwise) don't generally apply their trade until completed? Don't deploy? Don't perform resupply missions, fight, practice medicine, fly, etc?
> 
> Yes, you are absolutely correct that in between those 4-5 yrs of school, the ROTP candidate would have completed some of the courses I would be looking to begin on my 'Day 1', but we're talking a couple 7-9 week courses vs a 4-5 year degree.
> 
> As valuable as the ROTP program is, just basically wondering out loud why qualified applicants with education and life experience like myself, seem DIScouraged from applying (via payscales) in favor of someone fresh outta highschool with little skill foundation to build upon. Business-wise, seems best to recruit and retain qualified individuals... saves a LOT of time and $$, and our CF are no different than any other gov't outfit in experiencing serious budget pressures.  In my one case alone, CF would be saved 5 years and approx $250k...   and that's if I don't skip Primary Flight Training! (thus saving more time, freeing up a spot for another student, skipping the months of OJT before and/or after, etc)
> 
> This post is in no way meant to be arrogant, it's an honest inquiry. No need to squash someone's Profile cuz you disagree...


Time in is time in.  I had a friend (NCM) waiting for a course for a long time; he was doing OJT/OJE working a canteen at the base.  He must have been the highest paid coffee-pourer in the CF.  During that time, he still increased in his pay incentive level once he completed a year in rank.  Was his work of particular value to the CF? No.  Did he have 1 more year service under his belt, and thus earn another year's pay grade? Absolutely.

You're not complaining about being paid too poorly- you're questioning why ROTP grads are paid better than you (during time at 2Lt/Lt) so basically, you're questioning why the ROTP program is so good.  

The first reason is time in.  Whether it's time studying or time training, it is _time in_ the Canadian Forces, and because of that, we receive certain benefits.  One of those is a slightly higher rate of pay than DEOs.  Another is that we are very near to 5 years service so we are very close to having an extra 5 days leave as well.  I notice that isn't in your list of grievances, but it's there.  Because we've been in longer, we're entitled to 5 more days leave.

We also will have completed 4 years worth of pensionable time.  4 years as an employee with a good pension plan is 4 years.  That means we can effectively retire earlier than you with the same pension.  I'm not trying to be mean, but you're not questioning our progress towards our pension either.  Why? Because it makes sense- we've been employed for four years, we get four years pension time done.

We also owe 5 years service, or a helluva lot of cash.  We are, in that sense, disadvantaged because we can't simply walk out if we don't like it anymore.  

If the ROTP program sounds like a great deal for someone who wants to be a CF officer, it's because it is.  That's why it exists, to (hopefully) recruit high-caliber young (usually) people who could be pursuing other career options.  I certainly could have, but I want to be in the CF and they had a great plan available to me.  Unfortunately, you missed the boat by going through school on your own.  It isn't unheard of for people to go through the ROTP having already completed an undergrad degree, when their degree isn't applicable to their trade.  So, if you want to be treated like an ROTP grad, go and find a trade that you're degree won't let you join under, and then apply for that trade under the ROTP.

I imagine you wouldn't find this deal favorable, because it means going through four years of university at a sub-minimum wage pay level.  

You'll make more cash in your first 4 years than any ROTP student does, because our first 4 years (except for those with previous time in) are at approximately 1500/month.


----------



## Shamrock

Duckman54 said:
			
		

> Primarily to Shamrock...
> <snip>
> 
> ...BUT in terms of military I'm a mere "applicant" and don't know your terms of DP1 or DP2, think I get the meaning, tho...  However, I clearly understand your argument that a fresh DEO 2LT has "1 day in" and thus no claims to seniority of any kind, and I don't dispute your point whatsoever that I would likely spend most of my Lieutenancy in some sort of training, given the time scales involved.



DP1 is development period 1.  This includes BMOQ, environmental training, and trades training.  For my trade, that equates to just shy of 52 weeks's training time.  



			
				Duckman54 said:
			
		

> BUT...   that's no different than the ROTP grad example you just cited. This person, yes with 3-5 years in, has ALSO been in training the ENTIRE time, taken in approx $150-200k in salary, plus the cost of that 4-yr education  (approx another $25-30k?), and just getting out of University has also provided the taxpayer with zero tangible service by that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but University students (ROTP or otherwise) don't generally apply their trade until completed? Don't deploy? Don't perform resupply missions, fight, practice medicine, fly, etc?



OCdt Pay scales, after four years, a grand investment of $76,051 to have him or her achieve Occupational Functional Point (OFP) (assuming four years of school and completion of DP1 and degree at end.  Tack on an additional $6k per annum for degree and we're sitting just above $100,000.  Ideally, the candidate will graduate and march tohis gaining unit fully qualified.

2Lt DEO pay scales, after two years, is $94,812. 

Beyond OFP, the CF will get three additional years from the ROTP candidate before paying him or her as a Captain.  The DEO has one year.

I don't see your cost savings manifesting.


----------



## Duckman54

Thank you gents...  Many good points, very well articulated.

Had I known all this in my youth...   I still would failed out Pilot bcz of my vision, but likely would be fairly senior AEC officer at this point...


----------



## armyvern

Duckman54 said:
			
		

> ...
> My life experience and training are thus far significant in the civilian world.  Science Degree, Commercial/Multi-IFR pilot license, advanced First Aid/Defib, Rescue SCUBA diver, Advanced Sailing, Taser (harder to get than firearms license these days!), munitions, Peace Officer, ERT advanced tactics, the list goes on I won't bore you...
> ...



Alas it is too late.  But, for what it's worth, I once knew a lad with mucho experience and ego who perched solidly atop his pedestal and liked it there.  One day, when I kicked him in the 'nads, he fell pretty quick all the way back down to mere mortal level.  It was fun.  One of my own life experiences that I will not forget soon.


----------



## Teen_Cadet

I often browse forces . Ca jobs page. I noticed that it used to say in the job descriptions that the starting salary for a (insert ncm role here) was 33,000. Now it says for fully trained (whatever job) that the Starting salary is 49,000. Was there a pay raise or Are thy being misleading by referring to fully trained as corporal and not a private or am I missing something?

The same goes for officer jobs. Went from 45,000 to 51,000 for fully Trained starting salary. Has there been a raise or does it refer to lieutenant instead of second lieutenant ? Or am I missing something again? 
I am just wondering what's going in and would appreciate some guidance. Thanks in advance.


----------



## dapaterson

Rates of pay are all available at: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/index-eng.asp

Looking at the numbers, I suspect the "Fully Trained" NCM salary is for a Cpl, no spec pay, basic IPC; the "Fully Trained" officer is likely a Lt vice a 2Lt.


----------



## Teen_Cadet

Okay thank you. That was what I presumed. I appreciate the response, that's exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## OblivionKnight

I have a question regarding NCM trades and pay rates. On the Forces.ca website for Postal Clerk, it states "The starting salary for a fully-trained Postal Clerk is $49,400 per year; however, depending on previous experience and training the starting salary may be higher". It also states that the Basic Occupational Qualification Training is 6 weeks long. Does this infer that upon completion of 6 weeks of training, the salary would be $49,400? 

The reason I ask is because according to the Forces.ca Pay Rates (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page?) the salary is based on rank, which is in turn based on years of service among other things. 

Also, does holding a degree make a difference in pay rates for NCM trades?


----------



## smale436

Not really. If you look at the pay scale you can see that the Private 3 pay incentive is 4120 per month gross. 4120*12 = 49440 per year. You receive Private 3 after two years of service, however I would assume based on how short the Postal trade QL3 you will be trained prior to reaching that pay level.

As far as degrees go, I don't have one but a co-worker in the same trade who chose not to go the officer route does have one in some artsy-fartsy type of thing. We are paid the same. He knows he could have gone officer but wanted to work hands-on with aircraft on a daily basis.


----------



## OblivionKnight

Thank you for the reply, much appreciated.


----------



## Numpty

Wookilar said:
			
		

> OK, question on DEO pay...trying to sort out the Army one untrained officer at a time here.
> 
> Need some translation of CBI's. I am being told by Base Pay Office that untrained 2Lt's are held to IPC 2.  However, no one can seem to find me a reference for that. I have found this:
> 
> 204.211(11) (Limitations on pay increments)
> Despite CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments) and paragraph (12), the number of pay increment increases may not exceed the maximum number of pay increments for the applicable pay level and table to this instruction, and is further limited as follows:
> (a) in the case of an officer cadet who is paid under pay level B in Table "A", to a maximum of one increase; and
> (b) in the case of a second lieutenant who is paid under Table "B", to a maximum of one increase, and in the case of a lieutenant who is paid under Table "C", to a maximum of three increases.
> 
> Fine, no problem there. Except, I have one confirmed 2Lt that is at IPC 2, therefore, has gotten 2 increases (Basic to IPC 1; 1 to 2). So, said 2Lt must be on Table "C" as Table "B" only gets one increase.
> 
> Now, where the hell does this "held to IPC 2" come from? Anyone have a ref for it? Base Pay has not been able to satisfy me and has dumped it back into my lap to work out with the Chief Clerk. He's an old Fin WO and it doesn't make any sense to him either.
> 
> Any help or advice you can give this old Tn guy would be appreciated. Before I bump this up to DCBA I would like some more brains to look at it.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Wook



Sorry to bring up the oldies, but I just stumbled upon this after much searching. So instead of starting a new thread....

As a DEO I started at IPC (Basic) over two years ago. After year one, I progressed to IPC (1). The second year just passed and I didn't progress to IPC (2). I went to the base pay office recently to inquire and the clerk looked into it, and provided me with CBI 204.211(11) after a lengthy search. So apparently as it states, *All 2Lt paid under Table "B" are limited to only one increase in IPC*. 

*My question: * Why are the so many IPC increments for DEO if you can only go up one, even if you are stuck a 2Lt for 2.5-3 years?

I understand that ROTP, CEOTP, CFR, SCP, UTPNCM can all come in with prior service and possibly start at different IPC levels (level D and E have 10 IPC levels!!). I've come across rumblings of instances in the past (earlier 2000's) where DEO have come in at difference IPC's due to different levels of education (3yr, 4yr, Masters, PHD...), but I have not heard of this being practiced anymore. As far as I know, the people on my basic who came in with masters made the same (IPC Basic) as I did.

*My other question:* Are there any 2Lt's out there (DEO preferably but others welcome) who have over 2 years in and have progressed more than only one IPC?
And obviously without filing an exception IAW CBI 204.211(12) due to training delays.

Thanks, I believe that's all

Scales http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page


----------



## NSDreamer

Apologies for the necro Post.
I just wanted to thank the admins for saving all this useful information in this thread. Good god, by utilizing the search function and some honest work I was able to find what I wanted to know (why there are no provincial taxes ony my pay statement) without making a new thread. 

*Subtle hint to certain individuals who persist in asking questions that have been answered*


----------



## Navy_Pete

Quick question for anyone in the NCR; in November there was direction for all of us that lived in  ON and worked in QC (for instance, LSTL) to fill out a form so that we would continue to pay Ontario tax rates (all under the federal tax box).

I got my pay stub this am, and it now says I'm paying provincial tax (aka QC) and is at a higher rate then previous.  I was unable to get a hold of the pay office today, but someone else was told we are now paying a 'reduced QC tax rate'.  Aside from the fact that that isn't what the original message or the required form said, does anyone have any info on this?  I know you can request for various reasons that they remove less then the designated tax rates with the proper forms, but that's not what we filled out.

Also, is anyone aware of a reference on what provincial tax rates we pay?  For example, for IR, attach postings, which are similar situations (place of duty you report to is different province then your residence).

Thoughts?

If nothing else, seems stupid to have thousands of people pay QC taxes, have QC and CRA sort out how much is owed back to Canada, then transferred back to ON, when they know that's what is going to happen.  Also, means I'll now get a T4 and a releve 3 for no really good reason.

edit to add:

Sorry, forgot to mention that I am aware I am considered a residence of ON for tax purposes as per http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/tchncl/ncmtx/fls/s5/f1/s5-f1-c1-eng.html

My question is specifically relating to what tax rate they are deducting throughout the year.  I also previously had many problems with a previous tax return when I first got in and was posted out of QC prior to Dec 31st after finishing basic training.  Took months to get the QC revenue people to stop trying to fine me for not paying QC taxes and trying to recover the difference after the refund came back from CRA, so would like to avoid that if at all possible.

Just seems strange that they would suddenly change it this year after years of basing tax deductions off province of residence vice employment while working in the NCR.  There are tens of thousands of Ontarians that commute every day into QC.  I thought they would have been happy with the extra beer sales...


----------



## George Wallace

I don't think you have anything to worry about, other having had those deductions taken off your pay.  You will pay taxes to the Province in which your reside on 31 Dec.   In your case you'd be using the ON tax forms and should recoup any "over-payment" on your Return.  Other than the wait time for the Refund if your calculations are correct, you should get all your monies back.

[Edit -- Sorry.  I missed your edit.]


----------



## devsnrnco

But is it true that women can claim bras? Because they would be just as likely to wear them if they were not in the CF as men would be to shave.


----------



## BinRat55

mckenziepiping said:
			
		

> But is it true that women can claim bras? Because they would be just as likely to wear them if they were not in the CF as men would be to shave.



You're funny Mr. Necropost.

You are also confusing the terminology. It's a BTU "Claim" through your orderly room. IOW, DND will pay back a fixed amount allowing a female member of the Forces to purchase supportive undergarments. More if they are going overseas on tasking! This is NOT a claimable expense on your taxes.

If a female has told you she is "claiming" her bras then this is what she means.

 :facepalm:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> You're funny Mr. Necropost.
> 
> You are also confusing the terminology. It's a BTU "Claim" through your orderly room. IOW, DND will pay back a fixed amount allowing a female member of the Forces to purchase supportive undergarments. More if they are going overseas on tasking! This is NOT a claimable expense on your taxes.
> 
> If a female has told you she is "claiming" her bras then this is what she means.
> 
> :facepalm:



Time to back off the sarcasm and snootiness. If you're going to answer someone's legitimate question, a straightforward answer is all that's needed.

---Staff---


----------



## CountDC

geo said:
			
		

> simple answer.... nope!
> Your employer is obliged to make deductions and remit them either monthly OR bi-monthly



Not fully correct.  You can submit a request to CRA to have your taxes paid directly to them by you.  If they approve they will send you the details and the authority for us to stop deducting the taxes at source.  Only seen it twice though so I imagine there are some strict hoops to jump through.


----------



## CountDC

heavy reader said:
			
		

> Here's one for this group.
> 
> I am on TD all of the time.  When I get "reimbursed" for the TD costs (hotels, meals, rentals etc), this all shows up on my T4 at year's end as income.
> 
> So all of this money that I was reimbursed (out of pocket), I get taxed on, and probably loose about 40% to the tax man.
> 
> How (or can) I claim this at tax time, so that I don't get nuked every year?



I suggest you see someone as there is no way your TD should be showing up on your T4.  It is reimbursement for expenses (some assumed) and not income.  Doesn't even go into the pay system to end up on your T4.  If it is showing on it then someone is doing something wrong.  In 30 years you are the first person I have heard to have this happen.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I had it on my T4 a couple of years ago (TD money).  It was shown as non-taxable benefits.


----------



## Pusser

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I had it on my T4 a couple of years ago (TD money).  It was shown as non-taxable benefits.



Something definitely wrong there.  There is no way any TD allowances should be on your T4.  They are not income.


----------



## Messerschmitt

CountDC said:
			
		

> Not fully correct.  You can submit a request to CRA to have your taxes paid directly to them by you.  If they approve they will send you the details and the authority for us to stop deducting the taxes at source.  Only seen it twice though so I imagine there are some strict hoops to jump through.



Correct, if you have tax credits, you can submit a tax reduction at source form. Not sure if you are able to reduce tax at source without any credits tho. 

I've read the older posts here and saw some trying to get "more" tax deducted so that they have a positive tax refund (rather than owing). Why? You are basically lending the government money tax free until tax time arrives. Why would you not withhold as much tax as you can get away with, invest it (put it in a HISA at least, lots of 2.5% promos), and pay the balance due at tax time. Weird.

Regarding claiming expenses, what about the mess kit? I understood that it's mandatory yet you have to pay with your own money (and it's retarded expensive too, 1-2 grand)


----------



## geo

,TD is the reimbursement of expenses, not taxable. Someone puts thru a claim for you and it's paid separately from your pay.

FOA, sea, para & specialty pay is a taxable item.... Are treated like your regular pay.

If you TD is included on your pay and recorded as taxable, that's as wrong as you can get.


----------



## Pusser

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> Correct, if you have tax credits, you can submit a tax reduction at source form. Not sure if you are able to reduce tax at source without any credits tho.
> 
> I've read the older posts here and saw some trying to get "more" tax deducted so that they have a positive tax refund (rather than owing). Why? You are basically lending the government money tax free until tax time arrives. Why would you not withhold as much tax as you can get away with, invest it (put it in a HISA at least, lots of 2.5% promos), and pay the balance due at tax time. Weird.
> 
> Regarding claiming expenses, what about the mess kit? I understood that it's mandatory yet you have to pay with your own money (and it's retarded expensive too, 1-2 grand)



Of course you are absolutely right that it would be better to owe taxes at the end of the year than to get a refund.  If you're smart, you could actually stand to make a fair profit (which of course would be taxable) if you invested the money normally witheld in taxes and then paid your tax bill in April with the balance.  Unfortunately, very few people have the discipline required to actually do this.  The Income Tax Act requires employers to withhold taxes at source precisely for this reason.  Doing so guarantees that the government collects tax revenue in a timely manner and with minimal hassle (chasing people for their taxes wastes tax dollars).  It also helps out taxpayers by reducing the risk of having a huge tax bill they can't pay.

Having said all that, the self-employed obviously cannot "deduct at source" in the same way an employer can.  They have to pay quarterly during the year and then wrap it all up in their return at the end of the year.  Once you start doing this, CRA will send you an estimated bill based on the previous year.  This can be problematic if you have a windfall one year and they expect you to make your next year's payments based on that.  What happens if you don't have the income coming in this year to pay a tax bill based on last year's return?  

As for mess dress, this has been discussed before.  No, you can't claim it because notwithstanding the CAF regulatory requirement to have it, CRA does not consider it to be a tax deductible expense.  It seems the only clothing that does qualify is legally required safety equipment.


----------



## cdnjarhead

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page

After finishing training successfully for commissioned officer, you go from officer cadet to a second lieutenant.
What determines whether you are on pay rate A - E as second lieutenant? Are these differences in trades? Number of overseas assignments under your belt?

Also for example hypothetically on scale E, what has an officer done to make it to 10 pay increments? 

I am not under the impression I will become a rich man nor am I interested in just the money, but I am just trying to understand what kind of raises and increases in salary a typical officer experiences during their time. 

Thanks very much


----------



## Nfld Sapper

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page
> 
> After finishing training successfully for commissioned officer, you go from officer cadet to a second lieutenant.
> What determines whether you are on pay rate A - E as second lieutenant? Are these differences in trades? Number of overseas assignments under your belt?
> 
> Also for example hypothetically on scale E, what has an officer done to make it to 10 pay increments?
> 
> I am not under the impression I will become a rich man nor am I interested in just the money, but I am just trying to understand what kind of raises and increases in salary a typical officer experiences during their time.
> 
> Thanks very much



If you looked at the bottom of the page you linked the indicates what A-E mean. Items in yellow are mine.


Pay Level
A - ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151) 
B - OCTP-NFS (Officer Candidate Training Plan - No former service).) (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (Direct Entry Officer)(former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (University Training Plan Non Commissioned Members/ Officer Candidate Training Plan - Former service) (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (Commissioned from the Ranks) (former CBI 204.212)

With these new terms you should be able to google them and see what each entails and if not I am sure one of the resident Recruiters here can fill you in them.

MILNET.CA MENTOR


----------



## dapaterson

Per http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page, pay scales for OCdt, 2Lt and Lt are determined by entry plan:

Pay Level
A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)

There are restrictions on the number of pay increments available at those ranks; a review of the Compensation and Benefits instructions at http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.page will provide further information.


----------



## cdnjarhead

Apologies, I should have gone to the bottom of the page.
Got to "Medical Officers" and  "Legal Officers" and was like yup that's not me.

Thanks for pointing out the information.

But actually the entries in yellow helped a lot I might not have understood what the acronyms meant.

Once you are in a pay rate, say C for Direct Entry Officer, you stay in that rate, correct?

It seems like starting non-commissioned and making officer from the ranks and getting scale E is a better gig, both pay-wise and career path-wise, considering openings for civilian hire into DEO are slim and C is the lowest rate.


----------



## MJP

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> Apologies, I should have gone to the bottom of the page.
> Got to "Medical Officers" and  "Legal Officers" and was like yup that's not me.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out the information.
> 
> But actually the entries in yellow helped a lot I might not have understood what the acronyms meant.
> 
> Once you are in a pay rate, say C for Direct Entry Officer, you stay in that rate, correct?
> 
> It seems like starting non-commissioned and making officer from the ranks and getting scale E is a better gig, both pay-wise and career path-wise, considering openings for civilian hire into DEO are slim and C is the lowest rate.



For General Service Officers (ie most of them) the payscale becomes the same at the Capt level.  Only OCdt/2Lt/Lt have different payscales to account for the variety of paths people take to become officers.


----------



## cdnjarhead

MJP said:
			
		

> For General Service Officers (ie most of them) the payscale becomes the same at the Capt level.  Only OCdt/2Lt/Lt have different payscales to account for the variety of paths people take to become officers.



How many overseas assignments and years of good service are usually required for the promotion to the rank of Captain?

Thanks


----------



## MJP

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> How many overseas assignments and years of good service are usually required for the promotion to the rank of Captain?
> 
> Thanks



It all depends on your entry plan but once you reach 2Lt it is 3 years assuming you finish your training and c reach career status. 

There are more nuances than that but essentially getting promoted to Capt is a function of time served more than anything else.


----------



## Pusser

Promotion to captain is automatic, based on time and qualification.  In other words, as long as you pass all your courses, you should be a captain within four years of enrolment.  If your courses are delayed for reasons beyond your control, your promotion to captain can be backdated.  No overseas tours are required.

Going the CFR route may look more lucrative, but not really.  In order to CFR one must first be a sergeant and that can take years (promotion to sgt is not automatic).  The most lucrative officer entry program is actually ROTP.  You get paid crap as an OCdt, but your pay climbs rapidly after that.

Incentive increases are at one year intervals (i.e. you get "basic" when promoted and then move up one level on the anniversary of your promotion date).  Once you reach the top incentive level, there are no more increases, except when the government increases pay rates overall, or if you get promoted.  It is theoretically possible to have an incentive increase delayed for poor performance, but I've never actually seen it happen in over 30 years.


----------



## dapaterson

Pusser said:
			
		

> Promotion to captain is automatic, based on time and qualification.  In other words, as long as you pass all your courses, you should be a captain within four years of enrolment.  If your courses are delayed for reasons beyond your control, your promotion to captain can be backdated.  No overseas tours are required.



And that is a fundamental problem.  Capt should be competitive (perhaps less specialists such as doctors, dentists, lawyers and chaplains).  The pay scales for Lt are more than adequate for junior personnel; there is no valid reason for officers to get $75K+ per year with only four years of experience.


----------



## Lumber

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And that is a fundamental problem.  Capt should be competitive (perhaps less specialists such as doctors, dentists, lawyers and chaplains).  The pay scales for Lt are more than adequate for junior personnel; there is no valid reason for officers to get $75K+ per year with only four years of experience.



Thems fightin' words.  :threat:


----------



## cdnjarhead

Thanks very much for the replies and to the mods for merging the thread.

I would agree performance based incentives are a good way to ensure the best people get the best remuneration. On the other hand steady pay raises are a good safety net when you're trying to raise a family and inflation keeps going up. Double edged sword! 

So upon entry, a commissioned officer can expect to make the rank of Captain within 4-5 years let's say, based on time and not being a complete brick. Is it safe to assume there will be chances for deployment there? Also, do assignments to places like NORAD or something count as deployments or does that just fall into the category of training?

If making Captain is just a function of time, what kind of accomplishments take an officer to the rank of Major? 

Thanks for the info.


----------



## mariomike

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> If making Captain is just a function of time, what kind of accomplishments take an officer to the rank of Major?



This may help,

Captain to Major  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/59212.0

Officer Promotion Time  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/87678.0

Canadian Forces Rank Progression?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/109015.0

Promotions
http://army.ca/forums/threads/102250.0/nowap.html


----------



## cdnjarhead

mariomike thanks for that, that answers all my questions.  
So basically as Captain you're eligible for Major after 4 years but whether you make Major at all is up to the vacancies and of course your performance.
Sounds like a DEO who sticks around for the long haul will probably see the rank of Major within 10-12 years as long as they work really hard.
That's good to know upfront. So many jobs out there with zero upward mobility these days.


----------



## mariomike

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> mariomike thanks for that, that answers all my questions.



You are welcome. Good luck!


----------



## Pusser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And that is a fundamental problem.  Capt should be competitive (perhaps less specialists such as doctors, dentists, lawyers and chaplains).  The pay scales for Lt are more than adequate for junior personnel; there is no valid reason for officers to get $75K+ per year with only four years of experience.



I tend to agree with you.


----------



## Lumber

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And that is a fundamental problem.  Capt should be competitive (perhaps less specialists such as doctors, dentists, lawyers and chaplains).  The pay scales for Lt are more than adequate for junior personnel; there is no valid reason for officers to get $75K+ per year with only four years of experience.





			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> I tend to agree with you.



So would you recommend decreasing the pay of Capt/Lt(N)s or decreasing the rank requirement for jobs normally held by those ranks?

I can't even guess for how long the promotion to Lt(N) was based an examination board of some form of another (at least in Commonwealth navies), a practice which we continue to this day.


----------



## blacktriangle

The 75K/year doesn't bother me - but the 10th incentive at nearly 100k/year strikes me as perhaps a bit excessive. I'm thinking many of these people won't be promoted again by that point? Am I way off?

For argument's sake though, I'd say we should do the same thing for the rank of Cpl. We've got our fair share of Cpls that can't even function at the level expected of new Ptes - hardly worthy of "Journeyman" status.


----------



## Loachman

I am sure that Journeyman will amble along at some point to comment upon the worthiness of his status.


----------



## BinRat55

Loachman said:
			
		

> I am sure that Journeyman will amble along at some point to comment upon the worthiness of his status.



... I just got that...   :facepalm:


----------



## PuckChaser

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> ... I just got that...   :facepalm:



Better late than never.


----------



## TCM621

Spectrum said:
			
		

> The 75K/year doesn't bother me - but the 10th incentive at nearly 100k/year strikes me as perhaps a bit excessive. I'm thinking many of these people won't be promoted again by that point? Am I way off?
> 
> For argument's sake though, I'd say we should do the same thing for the rank of Cpl. We've got our fair share of Cpls that can't even function at the level expected of new Ptes - hardly worthy of "Journeyman" status.


My biggest problem with that name is that it suggests that career captains are not only OK but desirable. While this is no doubt true for many reasons, it has the problem of allowing people who are incapable of being successful outside of  basic course to lead people for decades.  It even rewards them for it. 

A career corporal who is a bag of shit,  throw him in the canteen or the library where he can't hurt anyone. If he is happy with never getting a raise for the next 16 years, fine. Most won't want to stay in such a situation and the problem will solve itself. 

Career Captains that are bags of shit , on the other hand, must be placed in leadership positions (for the most part) or other positions which will impact the lives of others. He will be in a position of some importance (even if only a little) and get a nice little raise every year until he damn close to finishing his contract. This problem is much less likely to solve itself. 

Unfortunately,  I don't have an answer to that problem except take away all their incentives and we all know own that will never happen. I can even understand why they promote captains the way they do. When your LTs are coming up to the end of their basic contract, and they can't get on their next level course due to shortages and budget constraints, you want to give them some incentive to stay.  It is basically the same reason they removed the QL5 as a prerequisite to promotion to Corporal and started promoting everyone acting/lacking.


----------



## Loachman

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> My biggest problem with that name is that it suggests that career captains are not only OK but desirable. While this is no doubt true for many reasons, it has the problem of allowing people who are incapable of being successful outside of  basic course to lead people for decades.  It even rewards them for it.



There'd be an awful lot of aircraft sitting uselessly on the ground without all of us undesireables.


----------



## Steve_D

And not all Captains (or Cpls) who are content in their position are bags of crap. I know of a couple of both Capts and Cpls who are very good at their job (and happy in it), but may not be good at the next rank. Performance in current rank and potential in next rank are two different things. That is why it is separated on the PER.  I am not saying that we do not have some bags of crap, just that labeling them all is unprofessional.


----------



## CountDC

Absolutely but if the Capt was more competitive like MCpl/Sgt instead of rubber stamped like Cpls then some of the bags of crap would be filtered out at the Lt level and the rank of Capt would have more meaning.  Time in and courses completed should not make for an automatic promotion but I have only seen the reserves refuse to do so based on the members poor performance.


----------



## Lumber

CountDC said:
			
		

> Absolutely but if the Capt was more competitive like MCpl/Sgt instead of rubber stamped like Cpls then some of the bags of crap would be filtered out at the Lt level and the rank of Capt would have more meaning.  Time in and courses completed should not make for an automatic promotion but I have only seen the reserves refuse to do so based on the members poor performance.



Just because it is not merit based, with PERs and a selection board, does not mean a promotion to Lt(N)/Capt is a "rubber stamp". Just go talk to any MARS officers who's had to earn the trust of their Captain to receive their BWK, and then spend the weeks studying for an ultimately challenging their NOPQ board. I assure you that sitting in front of a half dozen senior officers and being grilled for an hour and a half is not being "rubber stamped".


----------



## Loachman

Steve_D said:
			
		

> I am not saying that we do not have some bags of crap.



And not all at the Captain/Corporal levels.


----------



## TCM621

Loachman said:
			
		

> There'd be an awful lot of aircraft sitting uselessly on the ground without all of us undesireables.


As I said,  there is an argument for career captains but you could get rid if them and replace them as well. Specialists like Pilot,  Doctors and Lawyers have their own pay scale and they might be the ones that keep the ten incentives. 

When it comes to most officer trades (just like most NCM trades) we could fire every crap pump,  every hates his job, and every doesn't give a crap anymore and replace them pretty easily if we wanted to. It would mean higher training costs but you would have to ask what is the cost of having a person who is a drain on the organization? 

I don't want to lump all career captains in with the bad, most of them work hard and do their jobs. But I have dealt with enough that shouldn't be employed by the CF let alone in a position of authority (which being an officer makes you by default) that it is something that exists and should be talked about.


----------



## Steve_D

Lumber said:
			
		

> Just because it is not merit based, with PERs and a selection board, does not mean a promotion to Lt(N)/Capt is a "rubber stamp". Just go talk to any MARS officers who's had to earn the trust of their Captain to receive their BWK, and then spend the weeks studying for an ultimately challenging their NOPQ board. I assure you that sitting in front of a half dozen senior officers and being grilled for an hour and a half is not being "rubber stamped".



 Thanks for the plug. You are so correct. Earning the trust of the Captain and the NOPQ board was certainly no cake walk.


----------



## NorthernOtter

Couple of questions regarding Payscales for DEO BMOQ. Specifically for MARS, if that changes anything.

1. In regards to payscale, would you be able to outline pay while at Basic, and any costs/fees for room and board?
2. For Christmas Break, will travel expenses be covered to return home?
3. Finally, I have heard that upon completion of Basic, there is usually a "backpay" amount. To my understanding, if I was receiving Officer Cadet pay at Basic, upon completion I would receive backpay in the amount of the difference from Officer Cadet payscale to Sub Lieutenant pay. Is this correct?


----------



## NorthernOtter

After doing some research (something I should have done in the first place), I was able to find information on this subject, which I hope to have understood correctly. In the interest of helping those with similar questions, I will post my findings below. 

1. DEO Payscale appears to begin as 2nd Lt, according to this post: http://army.ca/forums/threads/116852/post-1336866.html#msg1336866

As mentioned in the above thread, pay can vary based on Deductions, PLD,  and Provincial Taxes. Also, Rations and Quarters will vary depending on if the DEO member is Married/Common-law or not.



			
				Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> Around 1500 as a 2lt (twice a month) in 2011/12.  There are many variables involved however that getting an answer to your question may not be close to what you receive, such as:
> 
> Entry plan as a DEO (previous service? are you going in as a substantive 2LT or LT? etc)
> Are you married (or common law) and maintaining a residence elsewhere besides St.Jean? (this will get factored into PLD)
> And a few other misc considerations (Land Duty Allowance, etc).



2. I have yet to get official confirmation, but it appears that an Allowance is supplied to return to your Next of Kin for the Holiday Break. That being said, be sure to list the proper person as your Next of Kin. 

3. Based on my findings in 1., it appears that this is incorrect as DEO BMOQ members recieve 2nd Lt. pay from Day 1. This needs confirmation however. 

Hopefully this is all factual and helpful. With the age of some posts and recent changes in policy, the information available was sometimes difficult to discern.


----------



## NorthernOtter

Hello all, 

I've been researching here and there, using the Search function to try to answer my question: What Payscale do DEO members fall under while at BMOQ?

The Pay Rates page from CAF shows that DEO members fall under Second Lieutenant, Pay Level C. 
Second Lieutenant	C	3839	4163	4489	4822	5152	5484	5813

Indeed, my recent Offer Letter stated that I would receive Pay at $4163.00. This is of course before Deductions and Taxes, and I understand that Net Income rates change based on Allowances and circumstances. 

_a. you will be enrolled into the Regular Force as a/an Maritime Surface and Sub-Surface in the Navy under the Direct Entry Officer - Generic entry plan;

b. you will be enrolled at the rank of Naval Cadet;

c. your pay level will be $4,163.00, as set out in Chapter 204 of the Compensation and Benefit Instructions, Pay of Officers and Non-Commissioned Members;_

However, in my searching, I have seen accounts of DEO members being paid as Officer Cadets, then receiving a "Back Pay" to Second Lieutenant upon completion of BMOQ. It appears that this is due to a change in policy over the years.

So, I thought I'd ask for Recruiters and/or recent DEO BMOQ graduates to settle this once and for all. What should fresh DEO applicants expect to receive during their time at BMOQ? 

Thanks for your time.


----------



## RussTheMann

bump, interested in this myself


----------



## RussTheMann

question: any idea how the pay increment part works? especially while in BMOQ?


----------



## George Wallace

NorthernOtter said:
			
		

> c. your pay level will be $4,163.00, as set out in Chapter 204 of the Compensation and Benefit Instructions, Pay of Officers and Non-Commissioned Members;[/i]



Why ask a question when you have been given the answer in "Black and White" in your offer as to what you will be paid?


----------



## George Wallace

This topic has been moved to Recruiting.

http://Army.ca/forums/threads/123387.0


----------



## George Wallace

RussTheMann said:
			
		

> question: any idea how the pay increment part works? especially while in BMOQ?



Please READ the threads on Pay Scales.  All of your questions have been asked and answered there.

These links may help:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/110364.0

https://army.ca/forums/threads/882/post-1401530.html#msg1401530


Pay increments, simply are annual raises in pay.  Nothing more.  Date that the increment comes into effect will vary depending on various criteria.  When you are enrolled, talk to a clerk and determine that date and what may affect it.


----------



## Loachman

The previously-posted links have been merged into this thread.


----------



## NorthernOtter

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Why ask a question when you have been given the answer in "Black and White" in your offer as to what you will be paid?


I suppose I just wasn't certain that that was effective from BMOQ Day 1.

After chatting with a few recent BMOQ grads, all who were there within the last year, I found out that the pay structure does in fact vary. Two members were paid as 2Lt, and 2 paid as OCdt with back pay (and a hunk of taxes taken off that backpay amount). They even had other members in their courses paid differently from them.

It looks like it really is an either/or scenario. I'd love to know why the pay structure changes, but I suppose in the long run it isn't important.


----------



## drbones

If that's what your offer says, then that is what you should expect. During basic you will have some class time with the clerks where you will get to review what your pay will be and try to fix any discrepancies. It also may take a while for your pay to get deposited in your checking account.


----------



## NorthernOtter

drbones said:
			
		

> If that's what your offer says, then that is what you should expect. During basic you will have some class time with the clerks where you will get to review what your pay will be and try to fix any discrepancies. It also may take a while for your pay to get deposited in your checking account.


I'll be sure to budget accordingly. Thanks for clarifying that for me.


----------



## reinvented

I'm currently doing BMOQ and I am getting paid $4163/month (ie. DEO 2LT Pay Increment 1). I am single so I am paying ~$648.41 for rations and quarters. Currently it works out to roughly $2100/month after all the deductions. Keep in mind that before basic I was on LWOP for 73 days and so my pension contributions are double what they should be for a little while.


----------



## Daishi

Not sure where to post this really....

What is up with the payroll rates? 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page

I am going DEO, and during the interview I was shown a laminated piece of paper showing I would be paid 1800 dollars a month after taxes for an unknown amount of time. My trades picked were Pilot and Armour Officer... I was told oyu start of at BMOQ as a 2nd Lt..... The pay scale doesn't seem to be reflecting that at all.

I am worried about my finial situation, as my bills total up to about 1400 a month (student loans, insurance,car, credit cards, phone ect.)

What am I missing here?


----------



## PuckChaser

Daishi said:
			
		

> What am I missing here?



Using the search function and finding the hundreds of responses on DEO payscales.

Cue MarioMike....


----------



## DAA

Daishi said:
			
		

> Not sure where to post this really....
> What is up with the payroll rates?
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page
> I am going DEO, and during the interview I was shown a laminated piece of paper showing I would be paid 1800 dollars a month after taxes for an unknown amount of time. My trades picked were Pilot and Armour Officer... I was told oyu start of at BMOQ as a 2nd Lt..... The pay scale doesn't seem to be reflecting that at all.
> I am worried about my finial situation, as my bills total up to about 1400 a month (student loans, insurance,car, credit cards, phone ect.)
> 
> What am I missing here?



The "laminated" piece of paper is a general example of what to expect for "take home" pay (ie; net, after all deductions).  The CF Pay Scales reflect the "gross" rate of pay per month, prior to any deductions being taken (ie; Tax, CPP, EI, CFSA, SDB and Rations/Quarters).


----------



## Daishi

OH! Okay!

So ~$1800 after all taxes and such AND room and board.

So I'll end up having all my bills paid, a roof and food and still have 400-500 a month to put away while I am in training.

That is a huge relief to hear, thank you!


----------



## ModlrMike

The figure you were given was just a ball park. There will be some +/- based on your personal financial situation. That same number was also not a promise, as much as it was an example. Don't count your chickens etc...


----------



## TerraIncognito

How do the pay increments work over rank promotions?

For example if I get hired DEO and pay band 3 I get $4822, when I go up to Lieutenant do I stay the same pay band and then make $4892? I doubt this because if I happened to start pay band 4 I would make $5152 and upon being promoted I would then make $5058.


----------



## Zoomie

Your Incentive Pay Category (IPC) will most probably revert to level 0 of the next rank, unless level 0 is less than whatever the member was receiving at the previous IPC (rare).


----------



## PuckChaser

You won't drop in pay, the system will move you to the lowest IPC in the next rank that's a raise. The only time you keep your IPC level is on appointment from Cpl to MCpl (and maybe those chief A, B, C?) since it's not an official promotion.


----------



## George Wallace

TerraIncognito said:
			
		

> How do the pay increments work over rank promotions?
> 
> For example if I get hired DEO and pay band 3 I get $4822, when I go up to Lieutenant do I stay the same pay band and then make $4892? I doubt this because if I happened to start pay band 4 I would make $5152 and upon being promoted I would then make $5058.



You do not drop in pay.  You will continue to receive $5152 until you reach an equal or higher IPC level in your new rank.


----------



## MJP

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You do not drop in pay.  You will continue to receive $5152 until you reach an equal or higher IPC level in your new rank.



Not true at all.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You won't drop in pay, the system will move you to the lowest IPC in the next rank that's a raise. The only time you keep your IPC level is on appointment from Cpl to MCpl (and maybe those chief A, B, C?) since it's not an official promotion.



Closer, but the bit in yellow is key in many cases.

_204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:

the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or

the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member's new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the date of the promotion, *plus an amount equal to the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic in the member's new rank*, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.
_
*MCpl and CWO*

2_04.30(4) (Appointment of master corporal) A corporal who holds the appointment of master corporal shall be paid at the rate of pay established for a corporal, *Pay Level 5B, in Table to this instruction at the same pay increment to which the member would otherwise have been entitled*, as a corporal, had the member not been appointed master corporal.

204.30(5) (Repealed)


204.30(6) (Appointment of Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer) After August 2006, and subject to paragraph (8), the chief warrant officer who holds the appointment of Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer shall be paid at the rate of pay established for a chief warrant officer, Pay Level 8C, in Table to this instruction at the same pay increment to which the member would otherwise have been entitled, as a chief warrant officer, had the member not been appointed Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer.

204.30(7) (Appointment of a Chief Warrant Officer to the Senior Appointments List) After 31 August 2006, and subject to paragraph (8), a chief warrant officer appointed to the Senior Appointments List shall be paid at the rate of pay established for a chief warrant officer, Pay Level 8B, in the Table to this instruction at the same pay increment to which the member would otherwise have been entitled, as a chief warrant officer, had the member not been appointed to the Senior Appointments List.

204.30(8) (Limitation) The entitlement under paragraphs (6) and (7) ceases after one year following the termination of their appointment as the Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer or from a position established in the Senior Appointments List._


----------



## Good2Golf

Don't have the specific reference at the moment, but there is a related pay policy that notes that if, on promotion, the difference between the member's previous rank pay incentive category and the new rank's basic pay is less than the difference between the new rank's basic pay and first incentive category, the member's pay rate shall commence at the new rank's IPC 1. 

This usually only occurs when a member has 'maxed-out' their incentive category in the previous rank.

Regards
G2G


----------



## kellar16

Im at home for leave for the holidays and i made an appointment with my bank to help consolidate my debt, i need to bring the last 3 pay stubs, no big deal there but apparently she also needs a letter or something that says im not on a probation period or anything like that, because most civi jobs have one.... im very pressed here and i have no idea who to contact. 

im currently on Hold Fast at CFSME in Gagetown, if that helps anybody with who i can contact about this.. any tips are helpful. thanks!


----------



## vonGarvin

kellar16 said:
			
		

> Im at home for leave for the holidays and i made an appointment with my bank to help consolidate my debt, i need to bring the last 3 pay stubs, no big deal there but apparently she also needs a letter or something that says im not on a probation period or anything like that, because most civi jobs have one.... im very pressed here and i have no idea who to contact.
> 
> im currently on Hold Fast at CFSME in Gagetown, if that helps anybody with who i can contact about this.. any tips are helpful. thanks!



Your MPRR ought to show what contract you are on.  If you can get a copy of it, do so.


----------



## Haggis

If there is a nearby Regular or P Res CAF unit you can get to, bring your ID and see if you can get logged on to the DWAN.  Then, go into EMAA and print out your MPRR, as suggested by Technoviking.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Haggis said:
			
		

> If there is a nearby Regular or P Res CAF unit you can get to, bring your ID and see if you can get logged on to the DWAN.  Then, go into EMAA and print out your MPRR, as suggested by Technoviking.



Most if not all PRes Units are stood down now, and have been since Friday....

And iirc HOLDFAST TP members don't have access to DWAN....


----------



## Haggis

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Most if not all PRes Units are stood down now, and have been since Friday....



So call first to see if they're open.



			
				NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And iirc HOLDFAST TP members don't have access to DWAN....



I'm but a simple Infantry Officer and had no idea what Hold Fast troop is.  But my amazing powers of deductive reasoning now lead me to believe that it is a PAT platoon for CFSME.


----------



## kellar16

Thanks for all the help guys ill see if i can make a couple calls!


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Haggis said:
			
		

> I'm but a simple Infantry Officer and had no idea what Hold Fast troop is.  But my amazing powers of deductive reasoning now lead me to believe that it is a PAT platoon for CFSME.



Give that man a cookie  [lol: 

They changed it from Holding Troop (or "the PATS and PARS") to HOLDFAST a few years ago....I think we are the only ones to give them a name other than PAT Platoon....


----------



## BinRat55

Make your way over to J7 and see the fine clerks there (upstairs - main OR) - call first to see if they are open. They know exactly what you need and do it all the time for us.


----------



## Good2Golf

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Make your way over to J7 and see the fine clerks there (upstairs - main OR) - call first to see if they are open. They know exactly what you need and do it all the time for us.



I read that kellar was on course, but at home presently, so depending on where home is, J7 may not help much.


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I read that kellar was on course, but at home presently, so depending on where home is, J7 may not help much.



Recruiting Centre: Winnipeg
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/13064/post-1440365.html#msg1440365


----------



## Good2Golf

Then J7 will most definitely not be of help...


----------



## McG

kellar16 said:
			
		

> [I'm] currently on Hold Fast at CFSME in Gagetown, if that helps anybody with who i can contact about this.. any tips are helpful. thanks!


Have you tried calling the CFSME duty NCO or duty officer? If you do not have the cell numbers, the base operator should.


----------



## vonGarvin

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Then J7 will most definitely not be of help...


So...no different than at any other time...


----------



## Good2Golf

Technoviking said:
			
		

> So...no different than at any other time...



LOL...you lived it, TV...I just heard stories and saw for short periods whilst on TD.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding the Subject title, "Getting  Copies Of Pay Stubs Over The Holidays".



			
				kellar16 said:
			
		

> i need to bring the last 3 pay stubs, no big deal there but apparently she also needs a letter or something that says im not on a probation period or anything like that,



Not sure Pay Stubs are what the OP is asking for? Sounds more like a Letter of Employment.


----------



## JRBond

Bit of a necropost. 

I received my Pay Statement for the end of the month and it showed a "Reclassification" retroactive to mid-December 2016 (i.e. when I reached OFP for my trade). Turns out when my qualification level was updated it reset my incentive level to 0. I spoke with the OR who put in a service desk request to have it fixed, which in his words "could take some time". 

Does anyone know of another way I can approach this? I don't really want to pay the army to work for them next month.


----------



## RedcapCrusader

JRBond said:
			
		

> Bit of a necropost.
> 
> I received my Pay Statement for the end of the month and it showed a "Reclassification" retroactive to mid-December 2016 (i.e. when I reached OFP for my trade). Turns out when my qualification level was updated it reset my incentive level to 0. I spoke with the OR who put in a service desk request to have it fixed, which in his words "could take some time".
> 
> Does anyone know of another way I can approach this? I don't really want to pay the army to work for them next month.



There's not really any other way to have IPC corrected except through the Pay Desk via your OR. Not sure why reaching OFP reset your IPC, unless you were promoted; in which case you move up to the next rank with IPC of zero.

Fortunately, with the new Phoenix pay system, corrections to pay are easy. Unfortunately, with the new Phoenix pay system, getting paid takes a while.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

are you a Spec pay trade?


----------



## JRBond

Nope not promoted and not a spec pay trade.

The OR seemed pretty confused by it.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Roger.


----------



## CountDC

JRBond said:
			
		

> Bit of a necropost.
> 
> I received my Pay Statement for the end of the month and it showed a "Reclassification" retroactive to mid-December 2016 (i.e. when I reached OFP for my trade). Turns out when my qualification level was updated it reset my incentive level to 0. I spoke with the OR who put in a service desk request to have it fixed, which in his words "could take some time".
> 
> Does anyone know of another way I can approach this? I don't really want to pay the army to work for them next month.



Why would you be paying? Seems they recognize the problem so should be able to pay you your normal pay until the problem is fixed in the system.  All it takes is a pay note and your clerk ensuring the adjustment is done every pay.


----------



## JRBond

There was no note initially, but was inputted today. 

Also found out today that this came from a mistake back when I CT'd to the RegF. This has triggered a pay review all the way back to enrolment, I'm told.


----------



## CountDC

oooh fun.  Check everything carefully when they are done.  Had a friend go through an extensive audit and they tried saying he owed all this money from overpayments when we worked together.  I provided a statement to him in nice terms of course that boiled down to they were off their rockers as I was his pay clerk and most certainly didn't pay him more than I paid myself.  Looked at what they were providing him and they showed his rank as Pte while he was a MCpl.


----------



## dangerboy

Good news for some pers

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2017/05/tax_exemption_forsalariesofdeployedcanadianarmedforcespersonnela.html




> News Release
> From National Defence
> 
> May 18 2017 – Ottawa, ON – Government of Canada
> 
> Recognizing the commitment and sacrifice that Canadian Armed Forces members - and their families - make for Canada when a member deploys abroad, Defence Minister Harjit S. Sajjan, Finance Minister Bill Morneau, and Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale today announced the Government’s intention to exempt the military salaries of all Canadian Armed Forces personnel deployed on named international operations from federal income taxes, up to and including the pay level of Lieutenant-Colonel.
> 
> This tax relief would also apply to police officers deployed on international operational missions.
> 
> This measure is an important part of a broader package of administrative changes and new measures included in Canada’s new Defence Policy, which will improve the way the Government of Canada treats our military personnel. Canada’s new Defence Policy will be made public on June 7, 2017.
> 
> These changes ensure that Canadian Armed Forces personnel and police officers deployed on designated international missions are recognized for their sacrifice and that of their family.
> 
> 
> Quotes
> “When our women and men in uniform deploy internationally, they and their families make great sacrifices on our behalf. Military families are the strength behind the uniform and we must do more to acknowledge that our people are our most important asset. The Government of Canada will recognize their sacrifices with these important tax relief measures.”
> 
> —    Harjit S. Sajjan, Defence Minister
> “I am very pleased to provide further recognition of the special contribution that Canadian Armed Forces members and police officers make to international peace and stability while serving their country abroad.”
> 
> —    Bill Morneau, Minister of Finance
> “The government is proud of the important work our police do abroad to support peace and stability in parts of the world that badly need both. We will provide further recognition of their tireless work by providing additional tax relief when they are deployed abroad.”
> 
> —    Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
> Quick Facts
> While the number of CAF personnel on deployed operations changes from day-to-day, there are currently approximately 1,450 Canadian Armed Forces personnel deployed on international military operations.
> 
> The Government intends to make this measure retroactive to January 1, 2017. These changes will not affect the assessment and awarding of existing hardship and risk allowances earned by Canadian Armed Forces personnel deployed abroad.
> 
> Related Products
> Notice of Ways and Means Motion
> Backgrounder: Tax Relief for Canadian Armed Forces Personnel and Police Officers
> Contacts
> Jordan Owens
> Press Secretary
> Office of the Minister of National Defence
> Phone: 613-996-3100
> Email: jordan.owens@forces.gc.ca
> 
> Annie Donolo
> Press Secretary
> Office of the Minister of Finance
> Phone: 613-769-7187
> Email: Annie.donolo@canada.ca
> 
> Scott Bardsley
> Office of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
> Phone: 613-998-5681
> 
> Media Relations
> Department of National Defence
> Phone: 613-996-2353
> Toll-Free: 1-866-377-0811
> Email: mlo-blm@forces.gc.ca
> 
> Media Relations
> Department of Finance
> Phone: 613-369-4000
> Email: fin.media-media.fin@canada.ca


----------



## dimsum

Wow.  It's almost like they read this forum for ideas!  :nod:

Joking aside, it'll be good for the deployed folks.


----------



## PuckChaser

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Wow.  It's almost like they read this forum for ideas!  :nod:
> 
> Joking aside, it'll be good for the deployed folks.



Finally we'll be able to have rational discussions on hardship and risk actually equating to the situation on the ground, and not inflated to get to tax-free status. Another change noted is that the cap for tax free pay is that of a basic LCol ($9717 a month) instead of the previous cap of $8000 a month.

All in all a good change by the government, and long overdue.


----------



## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Finally we'll be able to have rational discussions on hardship and risk actually equating to the situation on the ground, and not inflated to get to tax-free status. Another change noted is that the cap for tax free pay is that of a basic LCol ($9717 a month) instead of the previous cap of $8000 a month.
> 
> All in all a good change by the government, and long overdue.



Don't see where you're getting "basic LCol" from; the proposed ITA amendment reads "...amended to increase the maximum amount that an individual may deduct in a taxation year to the highest level of pay earned by a Lieutenant-Colonel of the Canadian Forces...."


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Don't see where you're getting "basic LCol" from; the proposed ITA amendment reads "...amended to increase the maximum amount that an individual may deduct in a taxation year to the highest level of pay earned by a Lieutenant-Colonel of the Canadian Forces...."



I caught an early news release that didn't specify. In any case, its better than the $8000 currently allotted.


----------



## SupersonicMax

So, $24,126 a month? (That's what a specialist doctor of the LCol rank makes at the highest incentive level)


----------



## PuckChaser

Could be, here's the link to the explanatory notes. I'll preface the link by saying they are also very vague:

http://www.fin.gc.ca/drleg-apl/2017/nwmm-amvm-0517-n-eng.asp



> Clause 110(1)(f)(v)(B) is also amended to increase the maximum amount that an individual may deduct in a taxation year to the highest level of pay earned by a Lieutenant-Colonel of the Canadian Forces.


----------



## Halifax Tar

So is this meaning that as long as you are deployed you are tax free? Regardless of hazard and risk?


----------



## H11F

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> So is this meaning that as long as you are deployed you are tax free? Regardless of hazard and risk?



I'm Army, so just curious, does this mean deployments on ships (so long as part of a "named international operation") will be tax exempt? Or are they already? Ignorant of this, so purely curious.

H11F


----------



## dapaterson

If part if a named international deployment, it would appear that the answer will be "Yes".


----------



## Halifax Tar

H11F said:
			
		

> I'm Army, so just curious, does this mean deployments on ships (so long as part of a "named international operation") will be tax exempt? Or are they already? Ignorant of this, so purely curious.
> 
> H11F




Until this came out in the news we were not tax free unless we were in a "box" that warranted the hazard and risk levels. This was usually only for periods of a deployment, if at all, for example on Toronto in '07 we were tax free for only the month we were in pirate infested waters.


----------



## PuckChaser

There's a lot of info that needs clarification from DND and TB.


----------



## Strike

Nice.  This means I might actually be able to get on a deployment now because, as it stands, whenever I am away for work my husband can't work (long haul trucker) and no work means less money which means serious fiscal restraint (especially given the taxes I have to pay this year after taking parental...AAARRRGHHH!).  Going tax free means his not working for that period won't break the bank for us.


----------



## Halifax Tar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's a lot of info that needs clarification from DND and TB.



This right here!  The devil is in the details.


----------



## Rifleman62

You know now that John and Joan Public will be crying in their cups  :crybaby: because their understanding/interest is that military pay is ALL tax free along with the free booze and cigarettes. 

Could be interesting recruiting tool.


----------



## CountDC

"These changes ensure that Canadian Armed Forces personnel and police officers deployed on designated international missions are recognized for their sacrifice and that of their family."

Guess I am missing something as this was already the case when I worked in FSS Ops - designated missions were tax free.


----------



## dapaterson

This will be for all named international ops, regardless of risk & hardship levels.


----------



## PuckChaser

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Until this came out in the news we were not tax free unless we were in a "box" that warranted the hazard and risk levels. This was usually only for periods of a deployment, if at all, for example on Toronto in '07 we were tax free for only the month we were in pirate infested waters.



Was thinking about this last night. The allowances only start and you're only tax free once we hit boots on ground in the CA, any transit time to/from theatre is not counted. You guys just happen to take a month to get there, where its usually a max of 48 hours of flight time for us. Unless this changes how DND and TB applies the income tax relief, I suspect there will be no change for that specific situation you mentioned.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Can we trade 'tax exemption' for 'meaningful, well led, properly resourced, combat operations'


----------



## Halifax Tar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Was thinking about this last night. The allowances only start and you're only tax free once we hit boots on ground in the CA, any transit time to/from theatre is not counted. You guys just happen to take a month to get there, where its usually a max of 48 hours of flight time for us. Unless this changes how DND and TB applies the income tax relief, I suspect there will be no change for that specific situation you mentioned.



Ya this has always been a thorn in our side. We aren't considered on deployment until we join the NATO fleet. Mean while we have already been deployed, for all intents and purpose, once Canada slides below the horizon. 

And we considered not on deployment anymore when we chop out of the NATO fleet and begin our transit home.


----------



## KyleJ

Good evening, 

I am not entirely sure if this is the correct place for this question, so please forgive me if I am mistaken. 

I have recently begun working for the primary reserves as an armoured recce NCM. I have worked 2 full days and 2 half days. Now, from what I know the pay is $90 for a full day and  $45 for a half day for me where I am. When I add that up I get $270 minus my deductions. Now, the problem that confuses me is that I received my direct deposit today which was $44. This is my first paycheck from the CAF and if anyone could help me understand if I am missing something that would be phenomenal. 

Thank you, 

KyleJ


----------



## mariomike

KyleJ said:
			
		

> I have recently begun working for the primary reserves as an armoured recce NCM. I have worked 2 full days and 2 half days. Now, from what I know the pay is $90 for a full day and  $45 for a half day for me where I am. When I add that up I get $270 minus my deductions. Now, the problem that confuses me is that I received my direct deposit today which was $44. This is my first paycheck from the CAF and if anyone could help me understand if I am missing something that would be phenomenal.



To add to the above, you may wish to check to read this. ( Not included in this thread. )

Reserve pay dates  


			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> You'll be paid in arrears on the 15th and last days of the month.  If those dates fall on a weekend or holiday, you'll be paid on the preceding working day.
> 
> How does that work?  In broad terms, if you work between the 1st and 15th of the month, you'll be paid at the end of the month.  If you work between the 16th and last days of the month, you'll be paid on the 15th of the following month.
> 
> Track your days worked; there can be errors in pay.  If there are errors, you need to report them promptly, since the dates for inputting pay are fairly tight.


----------



## kratz

Ask your OR for a copy of your pay statement. If you have access to a computer at the unit, you can log into EMMA on the DIN and print off the pay statement yourself.

Based on what you've posted, it appears that you have received 0.5 days pay, of the 3.0 days earned. This situation is normal and discussed in the 22 pages of the thread.

Short answer, use a calendar or other tool to keep track of days worked vs days paid. If everything works properly, the two should add up over a series of pay periods. There are a number of reasons in the class A pay system why a few days are missed on any particular pay. That is why you need to keep track of days earned vs paid. 

If 2 or more pay periods go by without days being paid, engage your CoC and OR.


----------



## hambley92

KyleJ said:
			
		

> I have recently begun working for the primary reserves as an armoured recce NCM. I have worked 2 full days and 2 half days. Now, from what I know the pay is $90 for a full day and  $45 for a half day for me where I am. When I add that up I get $270 minus my deductions. Now, the problem that confuses me is that I received my direct deposit today which was $44. This is my first paycheck from the CAF and if anyone could help me understand if I am missing something that would be phenomenal.



Without seeing your pay statement it is hard to say exactly what happened so this is pure speculation. It is possible that not all of those days were captured in the last pay period and that you will see them on your next pay. If I were you I would try to get a copy of your pay statement or speak with your pay clerk and I'm sure it will get sorted.

Cheers,

LogO


----------



## hambley92

Thanks to my slow DWAN connection I was late to the party... looks like we are all on the same page though.


----------



## KyleJ

Thank you for the assistance everyone! I will contact my pay clerk and confirm, this all makes much more sense now.. So if I work from the 15th of the month to the end of the month I will not be paid for that period until the 15 of the next month?


----------



## CountDC

That is when you should get paid it.

Do yourself a favour and talk to your CofC about getting access to a computer to setup your EMMA account.  Once you have it go in and setup for electronic pay statements to be emailed to you. My OR refuses to do either as that is a members personal admin and the computers are there for the clerks to get their work done not as general resource for everyone to tie up.


----------



## kratz

[Off topic / tangent] I understand resources are limited, but access to the DIN has become a work requirement for most CAF members. Designating one computer for unit members, or one per department/section use is not unreasonable. Even if it's for an hour per / post training would help the majority of the PRes in a unit. [End]


----------



## CountDC

Every battery/platoon/whatever in a unit has computers that the members can access so that is already done.  The problem is most mbrs don't go to their CofC or lines, instead  they show up at OR's expecting the clerks to stop working so they can do their pers admin.  Think of how disrupting that is - I would have to secure everything on my desk and pull it all out again if I let someone use my desk as it is all someone's personal information or classified information.

Don't forget - ORs are classified as Operations Zone with access to authorized pers only.  Using it as a computer lab just doesn't allow for proper security of pers or classified info.


----------



## kratz

Thank you CountDC,

I haven't been out that long, to forget what it's like to be a clerk.  [:'(


----------



## Messerschmitt

Is there no way to reduce the taxes? I don't have "official" credits to submit with a personal tax credit return or form t1213

I hate it that every tax year I get a refund of a few thousands. I hate the govt keeping my money tax free. How about I keep the money I owe them until tax time, get some guaranteed interest and then pay it come tax time.

I don't even get what formula they are using in the system. It's the same pay every month yet always end up with a few thousand deficit in my bank account and have to wait up to a year to get it back. With the backpay, I bet half of it will be taken in tax (again, on the extreme high side, it's like for extra income they use the highest tax bracket), and next year will probably end up with an additional grand in refund, therefore stuck in the system for a year. Nanny state much? I'm a big boy, I can handle my finances to give the govnt what they are due at the end of the year.

Anything the clerks can do to stop the ridiculous tax withheld?


----------



## Pusser

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> Is there no way to reduce the taxes? I don't have "official" credits to submit with a personal tax credit return or form t1213
> 
> I hate it that every tax year I get a refund of a few thousands. I hate the govt keeping my money tax free. How about I keep the money I owe them until tax time, get some guaranteed interest and then pay it come tax time.
> 
> I don't even get what formula they are using in the system. It's the same pay every month yet always end up with a few thousand deficit in my bank account and have to wait up to a year to get it back. With the backpay, I bet half of it will be taken in tax (again, on the extreme high side, it's like for extra income they use the highest tax bracket), and next year will probably end up with an additional grand in refund, therefore stuck in the system for a year. Nanny state much? I'm a big boy, I can handle my finances to give the govnt what they are due at the end of the year.
> 
> Anything the clerks can do to stop the ridiculous tax withheld?



You may be a big boy, but many Canadians are not capable of proper tax planning.  The law requires deductions at source (i.e. employer deducts and pays taxes on your behalf) in order to ensure  that folks are not stuck with a big tax bill at the end of the year that they cannot pay.  If you don't have an employer (e.g. you're self-employed), you generally have to pay your taxes quarterly.  The down side of that is that CRA expects you to submit taxes this year, based on what you made last year.  If you make a lot of money in one year, but not the next, you can end up with a hefty bill during a year of lesser income.  You'll get it back come tax time, but it can really bite in the meantime.

However, in answer to your question, if you are getting huge tax refunds every year (i.e. in the thousands), then it would appear that too much is being deducted at source.  The OR can fix this.  You need to fill out a new T1 with a more accurate estimate of taxable income.  If this is done properly, your tax bill/refund at the end of the year should be relatively small.  

Unfortunately, without more information on your specific circumstances, I can't really tell you what factors are leading to your large refunds.  for example:

1) are you regular or reserve?
2) do you have dependants?
3)  do you invest regularly (RRSP or otherwise)?


----------



## dapaterson

If you are receiving a large return but have nothing to report on a T1213, or on your TD1, then I'm at a bit of a loss - the pay systems uses formulas as directed by CRA and their Quebec counterparts.  I'd look closely at refundable and non-refundable tax credits on your 2016 return to see where the credits are coming from.

Only other possibility I see is that you've got a side business that is generating losses, which is outside the ability of the pay system to address.


----------



## Infant_Tree

Speaking of CAF pay, will I get an opportunity to file my taxes every April while I'm deployed?


----------



## kev994

CRA normally offers an extension to deployed personnel. I was able to file my taxes online from KAF so there's that possibility.


----------



## Pusser

Every year, the CAF asks for (and CRA grants) an extension on the filing deadline for income taxes.  This extension, however, NEVER applies to RRSP contributions.  So, although you can file your taxes later, if you want to claim an RRSP deduction, that has be made on time.

For the most part though, filing your income tax return after 30 April is not a huge problem for most Canadians.  Approximately 75% of Canadians will receive a refund every year and if you're getting a refund, CRA really doesn't care if you file late.  If you owe money at the end of the year though, CRA will apply penalties and interest if you file late.  This is where the extension comes in handy as it absolves folks of penalties and interest.


----------



## Infant_Tree

Do I have to let CRA know when I am being deployed or does CAF notify them for me?


----------



## Messerschmitt

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you are receiving a large return but have nothing to report on a T1213, or on your TD1, then I'm at a bit of a loss - the pay systems uses formulas as directed by CRA and their Quebec counterparts.  I'd look closely at refundable and non-refundable tax credits on your 2016 return to see where the credits are coming from.
> 
> Only other possibility I see is that you've got a side business that is generating losses, which is outside the ability of the pay system to address.



That's the thing though, it's like the system uses the higher bracket formula, hence deducting taxes at a higher rate than it should be. I don't know what gives. This is especially true when I get extra pay (allowances, promotion backpay, etc) Maybe I should put that I will contribue to RRSP, then don't, or my donations, but don't claim them for the year and carry them forward to next year, and rinse and repeat until I actually claim them. But not sure what the outcome doing that will be.

I find it stupid that it's just 1 checkbox to have MORE taxes kept on the payroll, but it's pretty much impossible to stop the REFUNDS. How about a checkbox for LESS taxes withheld


----------



## dapaterson

Only other thing I can think of is that the pay system thinks you're in a higher tax province.


----------



## dangerboy

Infant_Tree said:
			
		

> Do I have to let CRA know when I am being deployed or does CAF notify them for me?



I would not worry about deployments too much until you are in an actual position to deploy, but what they do is give you a letter which you include with your tax return that says you were deployed from X date to Y date. It is not something you need to really worry about.


----------



## Pusser

Infant_Tree said:
			
		

> Do I have to let CRA know when I am being deployed or does CAF notify them for me?



There's a line on the tax form where you can declare that you were deployed and since all deployments grant tax-free salary now (unless you are a colonel or above), it all becomes quite obvious.  Like I said before, unless you end up owing money, which is likely not the case (unless you have significant income from other sources), then this really isn't an issue.


----------



## Infant_Tree

OK thanks, just wanted to make sure.


----------



## PuckChaser

I get a couple thousand back every year, but I maximize deductions for things the CAF wouldn't be able/allowed to use to calculate how much tax to take off. Not a big deal, I get the money back at the end of the year anyways.


----------



## dapaterson

Look at the form T1213; there are items you can document (child care, etc) to have lower deductions at source.  Prior to the entry of Reservists into pension plans, I'd submit one annually and max out my RRSPs, but not have to wait for my tax refund - which meant more money available to pay down my mortgage.

It's worth spending the time to understand taxes to figure out how to optimize your own situation.


----------



## CountDC

There is always the option to contact CRA and ask them to authorize no deductions at source if you have the problem of getting refunds every year.  Basically you are making arrangements to pay them directly instead of us taking the taxes out. Last one I did the member was paying them quarterly an agreed upon amount that both sides estimated to cover his taxes for the year.  if they agree they will send you a nice package and letter that you take into the pay office as proof.


----------



## PuckChaser

An update on the proposed Tax Relief for deployed operations. It's not just as easy as saying "make it so", and it appears the government made an announcement without having any of the actual details completed. Don't expect backpay anytime soon.

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/07/26/defence-officials-struggling-with-details-of-liberal-tax-break-promise/#.WXk17YjyuUl



> Defence officials struggling with details of Liberal tax-break promise
> By Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press — Jul 26 2017
> OTTAWA — National Defence has been struggling to make good on one of the Trudeau government's recent promises: giving tax breaks to military personnel and police officers deployed on certain overseas operations.
> 
> Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan announced the measure during a major speech at the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont., in May as part of the Liberals' new defence policy.
> 
> While Sajjan billed the move as an attempt to recognize the sacrifices that are often made by military personnel and their families, it also addressed what had been a prickly issue for the minister.
> 
> Some service members based in Kuwait had become increasingly vocal in the weeks leading up the announcement about a policy change that threatened to strip their tax-exempt status.
> 
> Yet the devil has proven to be in the details, with officials now scratching their heads over what types of operations and deployments should and should not be eligible for tax relief.
> 
> The debate is particularly relevant for the navy's sailors, many of whom on close reading of the defence policy would not be eligible for tax relief despite spending up to six months at sea at any given time.
> 
> Sources tell The Canadian Press that the military's senior leadership is now seized with the issue, and that defence chief Gen. Jonathan Vance has told officials he wants the issue resolved by mid-August.
> 
> Alan Okros, an expert on the management of military personnel at the Canadian Forces College, said officials are now caught trying to make good on the Liberals' promise without making matters worse.
> 
> "They're trying to find a solution here that will achieve what the government intended," Okros said.
> 
> "But they don't want to start creating precedents that would generate lawsuits or people making claims of 'Well, if that applied there, it applies here.'"


----------



## mrswoodca

I will apologize if this has been asked before.

As a private, when do you go up from the first pay grade to the second?

I have received my offer, but haven't accepted yet, this is one of the questions that my husband has.

once again, if this has been asked before, I am sorry for asking again. I've been trolling the page trying to find the answer, and the deadline is coming up.


----------



## Ayrsayle

Habs said:
			
		

> I know if you're in the reserves and you're doing BMQ and you already have your degree, you should be a 2LT while doing basic training, getting paid as a 2LT, and have your 1 big bar on your epaulette/slip on.
> 
> You will be an OCdt if you're working on your degree, but don't have it yet.



Side Tangent - This actually came up fairly recently in my Unit and is also incorrect.  The CO (for a Reserve DEO) is able to promote directly to 2Lt, but is by no means obligated to do so.  Most do for a variety of reasons (retention, etc), but it is not obligatory.


----------



## CountDC

mrswoodca said:
			
		

> I will apologize if this has been asked before.
> 
> As a private, when do you go up from the first pay grade to the second?
> 
> I have received my offer, but haven't accepted yet, this is one of the questions that my husband has.
> 
> once again, if this has been asked before, I am sorry for asking again. I've been trolling the page trying to find the answer, and the deadline is coming up.


yearly until you have maxed.

Ayrsayle - thought there was something out recently on this stating the members were not to be promoted until after completion of basic.  The effective date was still the enrolment date.


----------



## mrswoodca

CountDC said:
			
		

> yearly until you have maxed.
> 
> Ayrsayle - thought there was something out recently on this stating the members were not to be promoted until after completion of basic.  The effective date was still the enrolment date.



Thanks,  I'm guessing that i wasn't using the right words when trying to search it.


----------



## Ayrsayle

CountDC said:
			
		

> Ayrsayle - thought there was something out recently on this stating the members were not to be promoted until after completion of basic.  The effective date was still the enrolment date.



That is the case (to my understanding) for Reg F members (and was for me, a number of years ago).  Take a look at CFAO 49-10 regarding Rank following Enrollment (For the PRes), Appendix 3, Annex A (Specifically regarding the 2Lt Rank - promotion requirement).

They specifically outline: An officer applicant shall be enrolled in the Primary Reserve in the rank of officer cadet and may be promoted on the same day to a higher rank in accordance with Appendix 3.   So a CO can certainly request it, etc.


----------



## FlyLikeAnEagle

So after how many years will i be a millionaire?  [


----------



## Bbmoveup

If this is in the wrong place please move. 

I know they updated and made an agreement on retro pay for the past years. My questions did that new retro pay and agreement include anything for the next number of years for any pay increases? 

Thanks!


----------



## dapaterson

CANFORGEN 101/17 announced the pay increases.  Had there been pre-approval of future year increases, they would have been announced in that message.

I do not expect to see any further announcements of increases until the public service unions begin bargaining in earnest; as their focus right now is mitigating the disaster that is the Phoenix pay system, those efforts are on a back burner right now.


----------



## RABBIDxBEAVER

Hi guys, hopefully this is right spot for this but I have a question regarding g my pay increment.

So I'm doing my BMOQ as a DEO Naval Combat Systems Engineer with B.Eng in Industrial engineering and no prior military experience. Upon arriving here I assumed everyone was on the same pay scale as I am (pay increment basic = $4083)  but after getting to know the people here, most are DEO with zero prior military experience as well, it turns out a lot are getting payed pay increment 1 ($4428).

So I'm curious as to why someone I know for example who is AEC with just a BA in history is at higher pay scale as myself who has a technical trade in a in-demand/competitive trade that hires up to only 14 positions a year and also requires an engineering degree which is generally more expensive to obtain than a BA.

Im just curious who all this works and what determined that I would get paid less than other people.


----------



## Blackadder1916

RABBIDxBEAVER said:
			
		

> . . .
> 
> So I'm curious as to why someone I know for example who is AEC with just a BA in history is at higher pay scale as myself who has a technical trade in a in-demand/competitive trade that hires up to only 14 positions a year and also requires an engineering degree which is generally more expensive to obtain than a BA.
> 
> Im just curious who all this works and what determined that I would get paid less than other people.



How much you paid for your degree or the competitiveness for your occupation has nothing to do with the amount that Her Majesty has determined you will be paid.  You are a "General Service Officer" (GSO) just the same as the AEC whom you seem to think is not worth as much as you.  You may find  "http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/pay-overview.page" useful as an overview of military pay.


> General Service Officers are all officers below the rank of colonel in all occupation groups except for pilots and specialist officers (legal, medical and dental officers). General service officers pay rates are also determined through TC analysis and they receive pay increment increases just like non-commissioned members. One significant difference is that there are often more pay increments for officer ranks than there are for non-commissioned member ranks, on the basis that it takes longer for officers to gather all the experience, skill and knowledge required for their rank. Hence, they must wait longer than non-commissioned members to receive the job rate (maximum) for their rank.



As to why someone may have been given a higher pay increment on enrolment, maybe you don't know the life and academic history of those you think are being paid greater than you.  Or maybe they were just better negotiators in getting a higher incentive on enrolment.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.page#sec-204-015


> 204.015 - Pay Increments
> 
> 204.015(1) (Purpose) Pay increments as set out in the tables to the CBIs in this chapter serve two purposes:
> 
> a.  to determine the rate of pay on enrolment, transfer or change in class of Reserve Service based on pay credits that, in accordance with orders or instructions issued by the Chief of Defence Staff, reflect the amount of qualifying service, academic or other special qualifications possessed by an applicant that are determined to be of military value; and
> 
> b.  to provide a means of progression through the pay range for each rank.
> 
> 204.015(2) (Qualifying service) Subject to paragraph (4) and other conditions as may be prescribed in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, qualifying service includes:
> 
> a.  subject to paragraph (3) of this instruction, all previous service of an officer or non-commissioned member in the member's present rank, equivalent rank or any higher rank, including paid acting rank in: i.the Regular Force and all other permanent armed forces of Her Majesty,
> ii.  any component of the Canadian Forces and of all other armed forces of Her Majesty, when on active service,
> iii.  the Reserve Force on Class B or Class C Reserve Service;
> 
> b.  one-quarter of all previous service in the Reserve Force, other than Class B or C Reserve Service, in the officer's or non-commissioned member's present rank, equivalent rank or any higher rank, including paid acting rank, in the Primary Reserve, the Cadet Instructors Cadre or the Canadian Rangers; and
> 
> c.  for an officer or non-commissioned member on enrolment in the Canadian Forces, a period as established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value.


----------



## 8mv6

Hi, 

Recently noticed that on DHs paystub that it still said his previous posting. Turns out that when we moved from ON to NS in Feb2017, he thought he had cleared in, but on clearance card, only has a stamp from pay&rcds once where it indicates first/HRMS IN/OUT. No stamp on backside where it indicated last/PAY IN/OUT. He is however receiving the appropriate PLD. Does anyone know when he goes in to fix it, will we be taxed the difference for the year, or would the pay be set up for appropriate base?


----------



## Soiled

8mv6 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Recently noticed that on DHs paystub that it still said his previous posting. Turns out that when we moved from ON to NS in Feb2017, he thought he had cleared in, but on clearance card, only has a stamp from pay&rcds once where it indicates first/HRMS IN/OUT. No stamp on backside where it indicated last/PAY IN/OUT. He is however receiving the appropriate PLD. Does anyone know when he goes in to fix it, will we be taxed the difference for the year, or would the pay be set up for appropriate base?



Sounds like the HRA he saw missed a screen in CCPS (pay system), when processing his in routine. It's a quick fix, however when it is made, the system defaults the effective date to the first day of the next month. So after it's corrected, his pay will be deducted for the NS tax rates, but up until that point he will have only paid the rates for Ontario. The difference will be made up when he files his taxes.


----------



## TCM621

I had a weird question the other day and I couldn't find the answer so I figured I would ask here. Upon promotion everyone's seniority is set to Jan 1 of the calendar year In which they are promoted, correct? The CM doesn't start at No 1 and work his way down the promotion list but cuts promotion messages based on a number of factors such as availability of positions in the new rank at a unit, postings etc. However, as far as I can tell, the effective date has nothing to do with who ranks wear.

So what I wondered was could there be a situation where the No 1 person gets promoted 4 or 5 months after some who ranked 40 or even higher? This would lead to  a person being paid more,  for a number of months, than the person that should be the first person promoted. This seems wrong to me. 

On the other hand, I am sure I would have seen or heard of a grievance or something over this. Maybe I am just missing a key piece of information that would make this all make sense to me. What am I missing?


----------



## PuckChaser

There's a whole lot of variables. If you're promoted/posted, you're not allowed to be promoted until 10 or 14 days (there's a CANFORGEN on this) prior to the COS date. If you're just promoted, and staying at the same unit, then you could be promoted early (prior to APS) if there's a position number available. There's also the folks that need to posted into a new position prior to the APS, and will be in their new rank. 1 to 40 just means you're being promoted, not the order in which it has to happen.

I don't think you'll ever see a grievance because ultimately it's "needs of the service" on when/where you get promoted.


----------



## Pusser

Where you rank on the Merit List has no effect on when you are promoted.  As long as you are above the cut-off, you will get promoted sometime that year and you're right, everyone promoted in a given year has the same seniority in that rank of 1 January.  It kind of sucks to be at the top of the Merit List and the last promoted, but it does happen and yes, it affects your pay.  However, in order to be promoted, there has to be a position to fill, so you have to wait until the new position you're being promoted to fill becomes vacant.  

Overall seniority amongst members of the same rank with the same seniority in that rank is determined by their seniority in their previous rank (e.g. if two officers are promoted to captain in the same year, the one who was first promoted to lieutenant is the senior one).  Their are further "tie-breaking" rules that end with the older member is the most senior.  Seniority is never determined by where you stood on the Merit List in a given year.

None of this really matters that much though, I have never witnessed a scene like in the movie _Zulu_, where the two lieutenants argue over who should be in charge and their commissioning dates are only weeks apart.

On a final note, the only time a person's seniority date is not 1 January is upon initial enrollment or commissioning.  You can't have seniority based on a date when you weren't even in the CAF, nor can a commissioned officer have seniority from a date that they weren't commissioned.  For most ROTP officers, their seniority date as a 2Lt is 1 May.


----------



## TCM621

Pusser said:
			
		

> Where you rank on the Merit List has no effect on when you are promoted.  As long as you are above the cut-off, you will get promoted sometime that year and you're right, everyone promoted in a given year has the same seniority in that rank of 1 January.  It kind of sucks to be at the top of the Merit List and the last promoted, but it does happen and yes, it affects your pay.  However, in order to be promoted, there has to be a position to fill, so you have to wait until the new position you're being promoted to fill becomes vacant.
> 
> Overall seniority amongst members of the same rank with the same seniority in that rank is determined by their seniority in their previous rank (e.g. if two officers are promoted to captain in the same year, the one who was first promoted to lieutenant is the senior one).  Their are further "tie-breaking" rules that end with the older member is the most senior.  Seniority is never determined by where you stood on the Merit List in a given year.
> 
> None of this really matters that much though, I have never witnessed a scene like in the movie _Zulu_, where the two lieutenants argue over who should be in charge and their commissioning dates are only weeks apart.
> 
> On a final note, the only time a person's seniority date is not 1 January is upon initial enrollment or commissioning.  You can't have seniority based on a date when you weren't even in the CAF, nor can a commissioned officer have seniority from a date that they weren't commissioned.  For most ROTP officers, their seniority date as a 2Lt is 1 May.



That is kind of why it is confusing to me. Generally, seniority is irrelevant because the CoC is pretty delineated. If person A goes down, person B is in charge etc. I figured the only real issue is pay. A guy who barely squeaks on to the promotion list shouldn't end up benefiting over a person who topped the list or came close to it but the system seems to allow it.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Pusser said:
			
		

> None of this really matters that much though, I have never witnessed a scene like in the movie _Zulu_, where the two lieutenants argue over who should be in charge and their commissioning dates are only weeks apart.



Despite being used as a training aid in leadership for Canadian officers (it was watched and discussed on my BOTC decades ago) _Zulu_ is a "fictionalized" account of the action at Rorke's Drift.  According to the "National Army Museum Book of the Zulu War" (which I am currently reading) the command of the station (and senior officer present) at Rorke's Drift and responsible for the lines of communication from the coast was a Major Spalding (Brevet Major Henry Spalding, 104th Foot, on Chelmsford's staff).  When news arrived that the Zulus were approaching, Major Spalding left to find and hurry up another company of the 24th that was overdue in coming up to reinforce the garrison.  Before he left, he consulted the Army List to determine who was the senior Regular Army officer (there was also a Captain William Stephenson commanding a company of the Natal Native Contingent that was part of the garrison, but he was an "Irregular" - anyway the NNC, along with their OC left before the worst of the fracas).  On determining that Chard was senior, he was placed in temporary command in Spalding's absence.

Oh, while it wasn't a recreation of the scene from Zulu, I was once party to a discussion of who was "the senior officer present" among a group of equally ranked in order to determine who was responsible for a fuck-up.


----------



## NSDreamer

Here's one:

 If you're deployed/Restricted posted to an Operation. Your spouse cannot come with you and you must maintain your home furniture and affects for your family to live at do you stay on the same PLD register, or does your Hardship&Risk+FSP kick in and you lose PLD?


----------



## Pusser

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> Here's one:
> 
> If you're deployed/Restricted posted to an Operation. Your spouse cannot come with you and you must maintain your home furniture and affects for your family to live at do you stay on the same PLD register, or does your Hardship&Risk+FSP kick in and you lose PLD?



Yes.


----------



## NSDreamer

Pusser said:
			
		

> Yes.



...yes to which? It was an either/or question?


----------



## dapaterson

Yes to the correct answer.


----------



## NSDreamer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Yes to the correct answer.



 :facepalm: OF COURSE, how could I have been so stupid!

  ;D


----------



## Pusser

dapaterson is right!

However, to clarify, when attach posted to an operation (you don't get posted to operations), then your PLD remains intact for your family back home.

When they changed PLD about ten years ago (i.e. removing Ottawa from the PLD), those folks who were in Ottawa at the time kept it (actually it's called TPLD, but those details are not important), but those newly posted in did not get it.  I was attaché posted to a mission after that point and kept my (T)PLD for the duration.  I did not lose my (T)PLD until I was actually posted out of Ottawa.  When I returned I did not get it again.


----------



## jofafa

Good day,

I was just deployed on a named Operation for a period of 8 days, 6 of those on the ground at location. Even though we are talking about a small sum of money  (~150$) is that tax free or is there a minimum of days to be outside the country?

Thanks.


----------



## Pusser

jofafa said:
			
		

> Good day,
> 
> I was just deployed on a named Operation for a period of 8 days, 6 of those on the ground at location. Even though we are talking about a small sum of money  (~150$) is that tax free or is there a minimum of days to be outside the country?
> 
> Thanks.



Are you Attach Posted or on Temporary Duty?  If on TD, the answer is no.


----------



## jofafa

It was TD, we re deployed the camp back to Canada to end the OP


----------



## TUNETOG

I have a pay question. I’ll try to be brief.

-Was ResF (not spec) CT/OT to AESOP at IPC4

-Completed QL5 @ 402 and was posted.

Glitch in the pay system didn’t allow them to give me spec pay. In the meantime WngOR is going to manually pay 80% of back pay owed (almost 12mo) and 80% of current spec going forward until Pay in Ottawa sorts this glitch. 

Problem is, when WngOR is calculating my rate they’re saying when I switch to Spec I’m going to IPC2 based off of the CBI’s. Qualifying service only counts as time in trade (feb 2016-present). Even though at the standard pay rate I was IPC 4. I’ve shown the OR the message that came out Jun17 stating all VOT will maintain IPC....however they said I don’t fall under VOT. Specific section of the CBI herethat they are citing for reference. I haven’t been able to find anyone else who transferred from ResF-RegF who lost IPC...though they didn’t have any glitches with pay when switching to spec to begin with. I feel the OR interpretation of the CBI is wrong. Otherwise a bunch of people are going to owe money. I’d like to get some thoughts/fodder that I can bring to my OR to fix this. 


204.03(5) (Rate of pay - occupational career progression) A non-commissioned member who progresses in their occupational career shall be paid the rate of pay established in the senior Military Occupational Structure Identification (MOSID) in a specialist occupation, for the pay increment and qualifying service for their rank pertaining to the sum of:

the pay increment for their rank in the higher trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to meeting the conditions the senior MOSID; and
the qualifying service accumulated in the junior MOSID of the same occupation for the member’s present rank, including any acting rank,
(TB 1 June 2017, effective 1 September 2017)

but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in their new trade group.

204.03(6) (Rate of pay - voluntary occupational transfer) An officer or non-commissioned member who voluntarily transfers to a military occupation, under such conditions as established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, shall be paid the rate of pay established for the member's rank, pay level, new trade group, if applicable, and pay increment determined in accordance with CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments). Once a member achieves occupational qualified status, their rate of pay shall be determined in accordance with paragraph (5) of this instruction.


----------



## CountDC

your ETP should specify you trade, rank and IPC on enrolment into the Reg F.  If your ETP reflects you were enrolled as AESOP then they are correct and it is not a VOT. 

What you may be missing in our wonderful system is that a CT is actually a release from the component you are in and then an enrolment into the component you are joining.  In your case you were released from the reserves and then enrolled into the regular force as an AESOP thus no VOT.

Crappy system that I wish they would hurry up and fix so we could process as a real CT.


----------



## Gimli

I suspect these questions have been answered somewhere, but I haven’t found them yet.  I am trying to decipher the CF pay scale.  In itself, it seems simple.  However, it does leave some unanswered questions.

I am re-enlisting.  It has been awhile and I don’t remember how some of this works.  Also, I suspect I may not have asked these questions before because I didn’t progress beyond Corporal and some of this didn’t apply.  My PLAR has been completed and they are offering recruit school bypass.  

My questions are:

1) Is the Private Basic pay only for recruits in Basic Training, or is for the trade training as well?  Or is it for the first full year?

2) How much is Private Basic pay?  It’s not on the pay scale.

3) Why does the pay scale only go to Private 3, when it normally takes 4 years to become a Corporal?

4) Why is Master Corporal Basic pay less then Corporal 3 or 4?  (I’m assuming that 5B Corporal is Master Corporal)

5) When promoted, does one normally start at _____ Basic? or perhaps they would start at a higher pay level based on their prior pay level?

Thanks


----------



## 211RadOp

1. During Basic Trg you receive Pte Recruit pay.  Upon completion you move to Pte Basic (unless things have changed since I went through many years ago)
2. No idea.  Can't help here.
3. Recruit + Basic for first year, incentive 1, 2 and 3 annually equals 4 years
4. When appointed to MCpl, you go lateral.  EG Cpl 3 goes to MCpl 3
5. You start at basic and work your way up annually


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Private pay is the same whether you are Pte(R), Pte(B) or Pte(T) ... these are only used to differentiate between a new recruit, someone who as complete some BMQ-C or BMQ-L and, someone who has complete BMQ-C, BMQ-L and, their appropriate trades course.


----------



## CountDC

2. - 2995 (Reg F)  All ptes start as Pte 1 IPC 1 upon enrolment.

Master Corporal is an appointment thus you keep the IPC.

The are offering recruit school bypass on your plar which has to do with your quals so I am guessing you have been out over 5 years.  What rank and IPC have they offered though?


----------



## Gimli

Thanks.  That makes sense with MCPL and other promotions.  

I’m still unclear as to what level of private pay I will receive.  Normally when does a new recruit move from basic to level 1?  Is it right after BMQ?

My PLAR only offered recruit school bypass.  Yes I have been out for awhile, so I’m very glad for that.  No rank offered.  I will have to do 4 years as a Private.  And can hope to get it in 3.

This will be a different and new trade for me. So it makes sense that I need to spend time learning the basics.  But at the same time, I’ll take anything they offer.

IPC?  Not sure what that is.

From what I have been told, I get 25 days yearly vacation right away and can buy back my pension time.


----------



## mariomike

Gimli said:
			
		

> IPC?  Not sure what that is.



Incentive Pay Category ( IPC )

https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&biw=1280&bih=621&ei=WeGrW5KHBIvOjwSYt5fYCQ&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+ipc&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+ipc&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.67634.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.N6ogKi-Fsyo

For reference to the discussion,

Pay increments  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/62778.125
6 pages.


----------



## Sotong

Question for the Guardian SME:

A junior CAF member commissioned through Special Commissioning Program from a trade with spec 1 pay.
When he was an OCdt, his pay was the same as his last pay as a Cpl before the switch over.
He got his commission, and was subsequently promoted to 2Lt.
His new rank is reflected on his MPRR/MM.
However, his latest pay statement still states that he is an OCdt, and is still being paid at his final Cpl rate.
The OR tried updating his pay info on Guardian, but all they got back are rejection messages from Guardian. ???

Surprisingly, another junior CAF commissioned through SCP at the same time, though not from a trade with spec pay, and was promoted to 2Lt. But he has no problem getting his pay adjusted.

Does Guardian not take into account situations where a trade may have spec pay?  


Thank you in advance for your response.


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## JKirke

I am thinking of joining, I would like to work with my hands as I currently work as a Financial Analyst (desk job). I just want to know if my needs will be met, as in being able to purchase a house with a military salary?

Anyone able to shed some light?


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## PuckChaser

The pay scales are all online, so you can see up front what your gross salary will be. The CAF pays well enough to afford a house in most areas. The rest depends on your credit, your down payment and how you're able to live within a budget. You're not buying a million dollar mansion, but you can live comfortably and leave the CAF with quite a bit of equity built up. We also have access to financial counselling/planning at approx $5 a month for NCMs (no idea what the officer rate is) through SISIP. They can assist with budgeting as they understand how the CAF pay and allowances work.


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## Kmanning

Hi, it was announced over a month ago that members who.sailed on missions that lost one of the allowances were in fact entitled to it and those members would be compensated for it. Has anything come from up top in terms of expected day of payment? Sum ? Who to contact? 

Cheers


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