# F-16 strafes N.J. elementary school



## Slim (4 Nov 2004)

*F-16 strafes N.J. elementary school*
Nobody injured by pilot's 11 p.m. mistake

The Toronto Star

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1099609815131&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

LITTLE EGG HARBOR, N.J. (AP) â â€ A National Guard F-16 fighter jet on a nighttime training mission strafed an elementary school with 25 rounds of ammunition, authorities said today. No one was injured.

The military is investigating the incident that damaged Little Egg Harbor Intermediate School in southern New Jersey shortly after 11 p.m. Wednesday. The school is a few kilometres from a military firing range.

Police were called when a custodian â â€ the only person in the school â â€ heard what sounded like someone running across the roof.

Police Chief Mark Siino said officers noticed punctures in the roof. Ceiling tiles had fallen into classrooms and there were scratch marks in the asphalt outside.

The pilot of the single-seat jet was supposed to fire at a ground target on the firing range almost six kilometres from the school, said Col. Brian Webster, commander of the 177th Fighter Wing of the New Jersey Air National Guard, which is responsible for the range. He did not know what led to the school getting strafed.

The plane was about 2,100 metres in the air when the shots were fired. The gun, an M61-A1 Vulcan cannon, is located in the plane's left wing. It fires five-centimetre-long bullets that are made of lead and do not explode, said Webster.

"The National Guard takes this situation very seriously," said Lt.-Col. Roberta Niedt, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Military and Veterans Affairs. "The safety of our people and the surrounding communities are our foremost concern."

The jet that fired the rounds was assigned to the 113th Wing of the District of Columbia Air National Guard, based at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. The plane returned there after firing the shots, Webster said.

He would not identify the pilot or detail possible disciplinary measures.

Mike Dupuis, president of the township's board of education, said school workers are mindful that the firing range is nearby.

"Being so close to the range, that's always in the back of our minds," Dupuis said. "It is very scary. I have children in that school and relatives that work there."

Schools in New Jersey were closed today because of a teachers convention.

The 970-hectare Warren Grove range, about 50 kilometres north of Atlantic City, has been used by the military since the end of the Second World War, long before the surrounding area was developed.

In 2002, an Air National Guard F-16 that had been practising attacks at the range crashed along the Garden State Parkway. The plane's pilot ejected safely, and no one on the ground was hurt.

Errant practice bombs were blamed for forest fires that burned about 4,500 hectares of the Pine Barrens near the range in 1999 and about 650 hectares in 2002.


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## NavyGrunt (4 Nov 2004)

Sweet merciful crap.....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2004)

Reading that puts a shiver up ones spine.


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## Da_man (4 Nov 2004)

thank god it wasnt an A-10 firing a Maverick


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## Michael Dorosh (4 Nov 2004)

Did NJ vote for Kerry?


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## Crazy_Eyes (4 Nov 2004)

Holy Hell....The city must be in an uproar


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## Da_man (4 Nov 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Did NJ vote for Kerry?




 ;D


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## Sh0rtbUs (4 Nov 2004)

wow...what genius decided to put an Elementary school *ALMOST* 6kms away..thats retarded.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2004)

PSSST, Shortbus....
.The 970-hectare Warren Grove range, about 50 kilometres north of Atlantic City, has been used by the military since the end of the Second World War, long before the surrounding area was developed. :-[


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## OLD SCHOOL (4 Nov 2004)

How long until the 'support our pilots' sign comes out?

Was Bush on a training flight making up for shirked '60's duty?

' No son, don't take out your forward air controler on the rooftop, that is not the point of the exercise.'

That old biatch Mrs. Wilson make grade 6 hell...take that you old (@%^

Those 6's on the GPS look like 9's when inverted!


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## Slim (4 Nov 2004)

I think they got off lucky. The F16 is one of the few US warplanes to carry the 20mm instead of the 30mm...Which would have had a much more pronounced result!

Slim


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## Guardian (5 Nov 2004)

Another ANG F-16 pilot firing on the wrong target. What is wrong here?

Is ANG flight discipline just generally shoddy? Or do they fail to teach effective target identification procedures?

This is disturbing.


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## Sh0rtbUs (5 Nov 2004)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> PSSST, Shortbus....
> .The 970-hectare Warren Grove range, about 50 kilometres north of Atlantic City, has been used by the military since the end of the Second World War, long before the surrounding area was developed. :-[



There should definatly be tighter restrictions, ie. Larger limits placed on how close the population can be living to a Range, 6kms is clearly not enough..


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## a_majoor (5 Nov 2004)

Wow, talk about "Out of Arc". More and better training, guys!


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## bossi (5 Nov 2004)

What?  Didn't the elementary school have those big jeezus IFF panel markers on the roof ... ?
(I'm being sarcastic, although ... now that I think of it ... the ANG should probably donate some to the school when they pay for the repairs ...)


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## QORvanweert (5 Nov 2004)

holy crap, how does a pilot in one of the best fighters on earth miss a target by 6k and then attack a elementary school? I would say that someone put in the target co-ordinates incorrectly..... we are lucky we only lost four in afghanistan, I am surprised they haven't bombed Base Julien yet.


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## dutchie (5 Nov 2004)

Usually when something like this happens, you hear people say, "Is it going to take someone getting killed before they do something about the shotty trainig in the ANG?"

Well, this happened after the lads in Afghanistan were killed, so I don't know what it will take. 

Maybe pbi has a take on the training level of the ANG. I know he has some experience dealing with the US Army Res and has posted his thoughts on them here..

What do you think pbi?


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## Inch (5 Nov 2004)

QORvanweert said:
			
		

> holy crap, how does a pilot in one of the best fighters on earth miss a target by 6k and then attack a elementary school? I would say that someone put in the target co-ordinates incorrectly..... we are lucky we only lost four in afghanistan, I am surprised they haven't bombed Base Julien yet.



Note: I am in no way defending this guy, but to put a little perspective on it.....

An F-16 flies at about 600 knots or 10 miles per min, that's under Mach 1 by the way.  The school was a little over 3 nautical miles away. Do the math..... If this guy pulled the trigger about 18 seconds late, he hits a school instead of his target. 

I think it's a little early in the investigation to be placing the blame. There could have been any one of a number of factors that led to this incident. 

Cheers


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## axeman (5 Nov 2004)

I LAY THE BLAME ON THE GUY THATT PULLS THE TRIGGER . there is no excuse for what he did none cut and dried ....;


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## QORvanweert (5 Nov 2004)

A professional fighter pilot shouldn't be pulling the trigger 18 seconds late... I know what you mean though...


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## JBP (5 Nov 2004)

I do agree, no reason what so ever he should have been "off the mark" THAT badly. But, as mentioned he was also flying a night mission. Flying at night is EXTREMELY dangerous to even experienced pilots. Basically it's one of the most dangerous things you can do, nevermind flying a fighter jet. Like Inch says, too early to tell what happened. But thank god no one was hurt, 20mm or 30mm, a single round from either of those guns could probably rip a human almost in half I bet!

Better it was just simply strafing also then if it was a bomb run...


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2004)

"Well your honour, I believed me and my wingman were being shot at. I acted in self defense".


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## Bartok5 (5 Nov 2004)

The technical ability to fly a multi-million-dollar aircraft does not necessarily infer competence in matters beyond the cockpit.   Just ask the families of Sgt Leger, Cpl Dyer, Pte Smith, and Pte Green....


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## Storm (6 Nov 2004)

One mistake of this type can be attributed to lack of judgement by an individual. Two shows a much more widespread problem, as well as a complete inability to apply lessons learned. If I were them I'd be taking a serious look at what exactly the force as a whole is teaching (or rather NOT teaching) its pilots.

In the words of Wellington: I don't know what effect these men will have upon the enemy, but, by God, they frighten me.


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## X Royal (6 Nov 2004)

If crap hits the fan it may be this fool or others like him that will be providing close air support for our troops. Lord help our people then. :


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## George Wallace (6 Nov 2004)

That's why the D-Day Dodgers in Italy prayed for inclement weather during WW II.   ;D

GW


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## bubba (6 Nov 2004)

george w you made my morming,ilmao....  8)


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## Sh0rtbUs (6 Nov 2004)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Maybe pbi has a take on the training level of the ANG. I know he has some experience dealing with the US Army Res and has posted his thoughts on them here..
> 
> What do you think pbi?



My thoughts are similar, Im curious to know.


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## gozonuts (8 Nov 2004)

Wasn't this fella a reservist? For Christ's sake, didn't they learn anything from killing our guys in Afghanistan? Maybe air force reservists should only be equipped with paintballs and a prop plane! Unbelievable!!!!!Totally unacceptable.


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## pbi (8 Nov 2004)

I tend to agree with Inch: we must not rush to judge. I am loath to second-guess the man on the trigger unless I am sure I know what I'm talking about: none of us really do right now. There is an almost automatic assumption that he was a reckless cowboy-how do we know this?

As far as the pilot being USAIRNG, it is not necessarily a reflection of his skill level, good or bad. He may have been an ex-USAF regular, or he may be a shoe salesman. He may have combat time over Iraq and Afgh, or he may never have fired a shot in anger. He may belong to a very active sqn (some AIRNG Sqns have a NORAD role) or his sqn may fly only what it needs to stay current. He may be a great pilot who made a mistake, or a turd who should be flying a desk.

Further, how can anyboy seroiusly draw a connection between Tarnak Farms and this incident, except that both pilots were USAIRNG? There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of good US missions flown for every ****-up like this one. Keep things in proportion.

Now, to the issue of how well trained the ARNG is (I can't really comment on the AIRNG). ARNG soldiers attend the same DP1 as the Active Army counterparts. After that, they will normally go back to take Active Army courses to increase their quals, but the ARNG has been working extensively on distributed training. For example, ARNG Bradley unit training can be supported by mobile Bradley simulators that are brought to the ARNG training centre on weekends, instead of having to haul the Guardsmen across the state to the MATES site where the Bradleys are stored.

During the course of a year, the average "traditional" ARNG soldier (="Class A" Res) parades one weekend a month and about two weeks each summer. On this basis, they do considerably less annual training time than our Res soldiers do. This is particularly noticeable at the senior leader level: our Res COs and Bde Comds put in hours that usually surprise their ARNG counterparts. It is not hard to imagine what becomes of skills learned at the School of Arm/Branch: they fade (as they would in any Army). I have been told   by an ARNG officer that the Active Army considers ARNG officer training   to be equivalent with Active Officers only to the rank of Capt: after that a gap begins to open. My limited contact with Guard soldiers suggests to me that they are probably not as good at fieldcraft and soldier skills as our Res soldiers, but I could be wrong (anybody want to chime in here........dglad?...). USARNG types seem to be universally impressed with the quality of our Res soldiers.

Now, this is not a static situation. The US Army has been forced to draw very heavily on the USARNG and USAR in a manner that was probavly never envisioned short of a general war. For example, here in Afgh, TF PHOENIX, which trains the Afghan Army, is almost all ARNG. The result is that there are now thousands of Guardsmen with recent refresher training and operational experience. As well, the US Army has seen quite clearly that it has some problems in the USARNG and USAR, and is working on fixing them.

Cheers.


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## RCD (8 Nov 2004)

Pratice for the real McCoy when they go over to Iraq


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## pbi (8 Nov 2004)

RECON-MAN said:
			
		

> Pratice for the real McCoy when they go over to Iraq



If you're suggesting that US pilots intentionally attacks schools in Iraq, I think that's a bit much, don't you? Cheers.


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## bossi (8 Nov 2004)

Ya know ... I wuz thinkin' ...

It always struck me as significant when reading about pilots during the Second World War who'd had an aircraft shot out from under them ... it wasn't necessarily a hinderance to becoming a squadron commander, or higher ...

So, after some calm reflection ... perhaps making a mistake during training isn't the end of the world
(i.e. better during training than during real operations ...)

In this instance, I've got a hunch this is one pilot who'll be extra to identify his target in future ...
(which isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially when there are friendlies on the ground ...)


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## sguido (8 Nov 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> I think they got off lucky. The F16 is one of the few US warplanes to carry the 20mm instead of the 30mm...Which would have had a much more pronounced result!



Nit picking time...

Actually, the 20mm Vulcan is the rule, not the exception.  The Vulcan is 'stock' on all fast-movers except the A-10...which is so slow, it's the only one that takes bird strikes from the rear.

There is a 30mm pod that the F-16 can carry, but it's not as accurate as the one on the A-10.  (Trivia time...the Avenger cannon on the A-10 can actually slow the aircraft down when fired; the cannon was designed offset from center so that the firing barrel is on the centerline to prevent yaw.)


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## Slim (9 Nov 2004)

There's alsways someone...Please Master-Corporal, may I have anouther!

Slim :


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## rounder (9 Nov 2004)

> There's alsways someone...Please Master-Corporal, may I have anouther!



Never pass a fault.


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## pappy (12 Nov 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Did NJ vote for Kerry



yes they did, they won't do that again....   :dontpanic:

opps and it seems the AF guys dropped a bomb in Pennsalvina too,  they voted Kerry too

OMG I live in Oregon, we're next! Time to check the bomb shelter.....

On a serious note, thank God no one was hurt in either of these incidents!


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## X Royal (12 Nov 2004)

My question is --  is the pilot now authorized to paint a map symbol for a school beneath his canopy.


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## Inch (12 Nov 2004)

X Royal said:
			
		

> My question is --   is the pilot now authorized to paint a map symbol for a school beneath his canopy.



I appreciate your sarcasm, but here's the answer anyway..... It wouldn't do much good, the maps we use flying are 1:500,000 as compared to the 1:50,000 or 1:25,000 the army uses.  They're aeronautical maps and lack the detail of having school symbols.


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## NavyGrunt (12 Nov 2004)

Inch said:
			
		

> I appreciate your sarcasm, but here's the answer anyway..... It wouldn't do much good, the maps we use flying are 1:500,000 as compared to the 1:50,000 or 1:25,000 the army uses.   They're aeronautical maps and lack the detail of having school symbols.



 I think he means like when you shoot down a fighter and paint a little plane on your fighter for your "kill count". It was quite clever. Like when we hit a seal in a RHIB and I drew a tiny seal on our bow..... >


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## Inch (12 Nov 2004)

Seen, my mistake.


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## The_Falcon (16 Nov 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> My limited contact with Guard soldiers suggests to me that they are probably not as good at fieldcraft and soldier skills as our Res soldiers, but I could be wrong (anybody want to chime in here........dglad?...). USARNG types seem to be universally impressed with the quality of our Res soldiers.



When we (a 48th platoon and 4 QOR) went down to Florida in June to train with the Georgia National Guard, it was quite noticeable the amount of training (or lack there of) that they had. As pbi metion short of Basic training and career courses, they only train approx 36 total days out of the calendar year.  And from what they informed us (I can't say if this is unit specific or a widespread thing), their 2 weeks of summer training usually amounts to 2 weeks on the ranges.  On the rifle range it was quite glaring how all 40 Canadians managed to pass the first time, despite using unfamiliar sights, firing applications that are very unlike are own.  Another thing that caught our attention was the general lack of weapons maintenance.  We helped clean our Coys support weapons and I am not kidding, some of the guns were orange.  Not just little spots but large portions.  They told us the have very little time do perform even basic weapons maintenance and cleaning.  One thing I noted and a few others as well, was the educational level of some of the soldiers, it was not very high.  Some of the O/C's even made light of it, and told us it was fairly common through out the US military.

Now I am not ragging on the USANG, some of the soldiers were quite good at what they did, some having performed active service with the Army or the USMC, they just needed more time to practice and maintain there skill level. (even up here we could use more training time but that is another topic).  The guys we trained with are slated to go to Iraq some time next year, and I hope they get as much work up training as possible, they are going to need it.


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## Slim (16 Nov 2004)

I would say that my experience with the USANG was very simile to the one above...Great guys to the man (well, not to the man) but very lacking in training and even basic soldiering skills. The one time I deployed with them (in one of their units) it was glaringly obvious that there was a skills and training gap. Also they (their officers and NCO's) were surprised as heck that we had skills like DZ/LZ controller, patrolling, and other lass-obvious skills that cpls just don't get in their army.

We were quite popular (there were three of us) and the battalion commander actually made me his driver for a time!

Good time and a great bunch of guys and gals though. I really enjoyed the ex with them!

Slim


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## Spr.Earl (16 Nov 2004)

Slim,for the past 3 yrs or so I have trained and worked with the Air National Guard for two weeks nearly every year on the Engineer side and have found them very professional and most have many tours under their belts and nearly all are Ex. Reg. Force i.e. Marines,Army,Air Force,Navy.
They have taught me thing's I never knew and I and others have taught them thing's they never knew.
Over all I have found the U.S. Engineer Air National Guard close too top notch.

All Militaries have their numpties,we have our own. 
Human error is a given in the Military wheather we like it or not.


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## NavyGrunt (16 Nov 2004)

When I worked with the reserve coast guard and navy guys from the states i found them to be of a high calibre as well. Most having civi occupations such as cops,firefighter, medics and former active duty while our reserves were comprised of 16 year old kids and university students...just my experience though.


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## Spr.Earl (16 Nov 2004)

Very true Aaron,most in the U.S. Reserves and ANG are all Ex Reg and have established civie job's.
With us I think we should have too sign a contract when joining the reserves say for 3yrs?
If you default you go Reg. to finish your contract or buy your way out,which hurts more.


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## pbi (17 Nov 2004)

When I provided my original response I distinguished between the ARNG (which I know a little about) and the AIRNG (which I know almost nothing about). I think that we are in danger of confusing them again. Where the USRNG and USAR are concerned, I have to side with those posters who have suggested that, soldier for soldier, our Reserve soldier attends organized military training for more days out of the total year, and is probably better at basic skills and in particular in NCO leader training. ARNG and USAR I would suggest have a much broader total range of skills(taking all MOCs together-not soldiers as individuals...) and are familiar with more types of modern equipment than our Res would be. As well they probably benefit from greater use of simulation and distributed learning, but both of these are definitely improving in our Reserve as well.

While a large number of ARNG and USAR have former active time, I'm not certain that we can say "most" are former active duty. Certainly I would say a larger proportion than we have in the Res today (although that seems to be improving). 

However, as I also tried to point out, the very high number of ARNG/USAR soldiers deployed on OEF/OIF will change both of these observations and we may be in for a big shock. No time to rest on our laurels!  Cheers.


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## Rushrules (19 Nov 2004)

;D I heard Dubya flew in and announced "Mission Accomplished" > afterwards. :bullet:


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## carpediem (22 Nov 2004)

Here is another version of the events:

http://www.avweb.com/news/avmail/188537-1.html

NOTE: this is not my opinion, just thought people would like another information source


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