# Suppressors...



## Wehmann (10 Jan 2006)

hello, this is just a question i have that is in regards to curiosity. Do our CF soldiers use and equip silencers on weapons? or are they issued to special soldiers for certain accuired missions? can you obtain and use a silencer as a choice of your own? thank you very much!
- Wehmann ;D


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## 1feral1 (10 Jan 2006)

The word is suppressors, silencers is a movie term. I don't know about such eqpt being used by the CF in general (been out of the loop officially since 1995), but the CF's SF community would have them, as they do here for use on the SR25, SR98, Colt M4, H&K MP5 family, and M9/92F family of 9mm pistols.
Cold beers,

Wes


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## KevinB (10 Jan 2006)

Wes, is 100% correct the term is suppressor.

  All the CF's sniper weapon systesm are suppressed.  Outside DHTC not much else is suppressed.


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## Devlin (10 Jan 2006)

KevinB

Maybe you can answer this one on a high caliber (.50 Cal Barrett) does the muzzle brake do anything to suppress the noise or is it's purpose solely to absorb recoil.


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## 3rd Herd (10 Jan 2006)

Forget the .50 cal boys Barretts has a new piece of kit on the block: XM109
http://www.barrettrifles.com/military.htm
wes opinion?


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## dutchie (10 Jan 2006)

A question I've always had about suppresors, but never got a straight answer on:

If a round is supersonic, isn't the suppresion of the report kind of pointless, as the crack of the round is still present? Obviously not, but could someone explain why?

Thanks.


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## BKells (10 Jan 2006)

I am not a munitions expert but I'll hazard a guess here. 2 reasons. 1) Shooting at ranges short enough that the supersonic characteristic of the  bullet is irrelevant beause the sound catches up so fast 2) Concealment of your position even after they would normally hear your bullet.


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## dutchie (10 Jan 2006)

BKells said:
			
		

> Concealment of your position even after they would normally hear your bullet.


That was what I thought as well, anything else?


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## KevinB (10 Jan 2006)

Methods of locating a shooter are crack thump.
Crack is the supersonic bullet the thump it the expanding propellant gasses leaving the muzzle -- the suppressor keeps the gasses inside in a contained and inert environment so no explosive noise is created.

 Basically you will hear the round but be unable to determine where it came from.



Muzzle brakes -- the redirect muzzle gasses back to ward the shooter and observer -- (unpleasant to say the least) does nothign for noise abatement.


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## 3rd Herd (10 Jan 2006)

Caesar here is a link for you, I too a laymen in this area but I thought a little searching was in order
Suppressor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

"A silencer does not make a soldier silent, but it does make him invisible."
-Finnish Proverb


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## dutchie (10 Jan 2006)

Thanks for the info guys.

Now I know.


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## canuck#1 (10 Jan 2006)

I see suppressors for sale in the United States (Rifle Magazines) for an AR15/M16 would it be legal to use it (overseas) and if so would the CF let you use it. Thanks


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## George Wallace (10 Jan 2006)

:                              NO !


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## Franko (10 Jan 2006)

canuck#1 said:
			
		

> I see suppressors for sale in the United States (Rifle Magazines) for an AR15/M16 would it be legal to use it (overseas) and if so would the CF let you use it. Thanks



No and get caught with one without approval...can you say *JAIL?*

Regards


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## canuck#1 (10 Jan 2006)

Why isn't it? Just asking, cause if you can buy them in the states and Snipers can use it in warfare why couldn't regular infantry use it?. Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm young and ignorant about the subject. Thanx Again


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## Ex-Dragoon (10 Jan 2006)

Because its CF policy!


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## George Wallace (10 Jan 2006)

From another Thread, but I think you should read it:



			
				Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> The CF is not like a video game kids, its real life. Just because you get issued with an MP5 with a suppressor, don't think for one instant as soon as you sign up you will ever see these things. Start using your heads, you are not becoming a character in Counterstrike, you are becoming a soldier in the CF for Canada. You do not get your choice of weapons, you don't always get a pistol(some people will go through their career never firing one), some of you may eventually get in with the CSOR and maybe even JTF2, although I would not count on it. Go in and join with an open mind, but don't expect it to be like in the movies, in any books you have read or any game you have played, its real life and life has a habit of not doing exactly as you envision.




It is the Rules that we go by.  You break the rules, you will go to JAIL, as was suggested earlier.

Any more questions?


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## KevinB (20 Jan 2006)

This is intially dealing with suppressor usage in the CF (conventional forces)
The only rifle currently suppressed are CF sniper weapons, the MacMillan Tac-50, PGWDTI Timberwolf, Armalite AR10-T and Diemaco(Colt Canada - a division of General Dynamics) C7CT.

 However members of sniper dets have affixed suppressors to the C8SFW/C8FTHB (the can from the C7CT).  (3 R22eR also attached the CT can to a C8A1 for a video but it cannot be fired that way due to the barrel diamater not being compatible with the suppressor attachment point.)


Now pics  

TAC-50






TimberWolf





like the Leaf...






AR10 -- edit no pic - the only pic I have is this is from a unit that is publicity shy...

C7CT 






Other misc suppressed pics
SA80A2/IW





Midlength 6.8 SPC





MRS concept gun ( the MRS which came the unfortunate C7CT boat anchor)





C8SFW with C7CT suppressor





CF PDW candidate









Current technology suppressors effectively remove muzzle blast from the equation and add a aprox 25 fps to the muzzle velocity.  Thus the weapon is not anymore ineffective (many seem to think there is a velocity loss with a suppressor - as was true with the old submachien gun suppressors from the 70's that added port to bleed pressure and rubber wipes to futher trap expanding gasses)
with the suppressor than without -- and the 10" C8CWB with OPSINC suppressor used elswhere in the CF is actually a tad more effective with the can.
 Since the expanding muzzle gasses are retarded and do not suffer explosive combustion at the muzzle there is no thump (from crack thump) thus both flash and report sound is minimized - true their is still super sonic bullet flight noise - but it is next to impossible to determine the direction of fire (no thump) when the second report (the sonic wave "thump" from the muzzle gasses allow proper oreintation to locate the shooter) is missing.
Furthemore since the muzzle gasses do not explosively expand recoil is reduced to a larger degree.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2006)

Break this part down for an equipment loser.....are you saying the gun has MORE range with a "suppressor"?


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## KevinB (20 Jan 2006)

Argh -- I had a page typed that I lost when this got collated... 

I'm the Duty Office today so I have to go pay attention to my job for a bit-- so more later.

But NO - no more range -- just not any less range.

More to follow


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## dutchie (20 Jan 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Argh -- I had a page typed that I lost when this got collated...
> 
> I'm the Duty Office today so I have to go pay attention to my job for a bit-- so more later.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot Kevin. When you get a chance, please tell more. This is really informative.


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## KevinB (20 Jan 2006)

Okay all troops and weapons accounted for - back to fun times...

The standard deviation on most ammunition lots will be greater than 25fps anyway so the freebore boost from a rifle suppressor is negligable - however a C8CQB with its 10" bbl and under 2600fps w/ C77 ammo will like any addition velocity for terminal effect.

Pistol suppressors (which which I am not very familiar -I have shot less than 500rds from three different suppressed pistols) - most will require a Neilsen device (recoil booster) for the slide to function - or without pistols with a Borwning/Modified Brownign tilting barrel locking method will require springs to be cut which then causes them to batter the gun when used unsuppressed (i.e Sig P22Xseries guns) - guns like the Berretta M92/M9 are good for this (their only real use...) due to the fixed barrel/locking block.
 Additionally subsonic rounds (liek the 230gr .45ACP round) are much easier to suppress effectively since the round is already subsonic (pistol suppression is geared to much more silent operation than rifle suppression due to the "in your face" distances pistols are used at) whereas with supersonic round (124gr 9mm NATO ball) you have to either accept the supersonic bullet flight noise or port the barrel to bleed pressure so the round will be subsonic leaving the barrel.

Machine Gun Suppression.
 Both C6's and C9's have been suppressed - however while this ups the weapons cyclic rate - it also makes the weapon much more steady - there are some questions as to if this reduces the beaten zone - however IMHO/E it does not as the natural dispersion of the round makes the beaten zone - the greater control that the operator has over the weapon just makes center of the beaten zone more easily aimed for.
 However after a certain point the barrel and suppressor reach a temperature that the copper gildign metal jacket and the lead in the bullet start to liquify and the bullets coem to molten goo (trust me we ruined a few suppressor finding this one out...) 
  Given that we no longer use machine guns in the WWI Trench Warfare manner the addition of a suppressor to a belt fed increased operator survivability due to the removal of weapon signature (flash and blast) - it can become a precision mass killing tool.



Now - 1) No individuals in Canada cannot own suppressors - and no you cant buy one and have your unit hold it for you.
2) Suppressors if treated properly will last the life of the barrel - but they must be cleaned after usage (CLP leaves large smoke clouds as it burns off) it is best to blow them out with compressed air then add a proper suppressor lubricant (the name escapes me for the minute - but units issued a large number of cans will be able to contact others in the CF (hint hint nudge nudge) to acquire it.
3) This is the next step in the CF Night Fighting program that needs to be adopted -


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## dutchie (20 Jan 2006)

Wow. Supressed C6/C9...who'd a thunk it? At what point does the jacket/round liquify? That is, what can a machine gunner expect to be able to put forth without risking this, in your estimation? 

Do you favour sub-sonic rounds in SMGs/pistols (whether by design of the round or manipulating the gasses)? Or is it mission specific in your HO?

Cheers.


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## KevinB (20 Jan 2006)

"Studies"  ;D seems to indicate that it takes many rounds...

  We noticed that after about 120rds continuously (4 x 30rd mag dumps) out of a C8CQB that the flash suppressor was copper coated (and the interior of the suppressor).  I have a pic somewhere
The 4" and 6" PDW's by M2 Corp where worse and in one a can was pretty much destroyed after 90rds.

 The beltfeeds seems to due that about the 160-200rd area - depending on barrel length - the shorter the barrel (mk46 or C9A2/Para) the less rounds due the more gas still burning when it hits the can -- cans will also fail at a certain point (and so will barrels).

  The solution is to have one suppressed barrel (or two) and one non suppressed fpor if your REALLY need to go hammer down with a belt fed (and most of the CF's beat to shit C6's and C9's will have stoppages long before then anyway due to the worn out parts not doing so well when hot).

Keep in mind the SEALS destroyed a number of M4A1's by doing ridiculous mag dumps unsuppressed (like 540 rds in a static loc. back to back :)

Keep in mind in reality you will be constantly moving if under contact - so the weapon will have some cooling time.


* I cant really justify a use for a suppressed pistol - if I need a pistol I want it quick not with a 6-8" anchor attached to it - and odds are my luck too a wrong turn and there is no covertness left.  Similarily I cant stand pistol cartridges in longguns - If you are unfortunate enough to be mandated to use 9mm for domestic operations - then so be it - but a 5.56mm 10" C8CQB suppressed is a wee bit larger than a MP-5SD3 but way more terminally effective and can punch body armour (soft) if need be and Plates with a NSR failure drill.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2006)

> Why isn't it? Just asking, cause if you can buy them in the states and Snipers can use it in warfare why couldn't regular infantry use it?



Someone correct me if i'm out to lunch here

One of the reasons suppressors shouldn't be used by the regular infantry is because as an infantry soldier, when you shoot you want your enemy to keep their head down and NOT return fire. You can get closer to them and shoot them, grenade them or prompt them to surrender.  

If your enemy can't hear you shooting at them they are going to shoot back at you.   You can argue that if the enemy is shooting at you then you can see them, maybe their head is up or something and shoot them but thats iffy. Their still some good chances that your going to get shot too. It's better to keep the enemy with their face in the dirt and not using their weapon.
Them hearing you shooting at them accomplishes this.


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## KevinB (20 Jan 2006)

Uhm no.

They will hear the CRACK anyway - hopefully a really good sick thud too (bullets into flesh).

There is nothing stopping regular units from usign suppressors but lack of a budget to buy suppressors - When Gen Hillier was 2I/C of Land Forces he was interested in suppressing the CF weapon fleet.  There is no legitimate reason not to suppress weapons.


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## dutchie (20 Jan 2006)

So if I hear you right Kevin, we could have all small arms supressed, up to and including the C6, with proper precautions (spare non-supressed barrels, proper ammo, decent 'cans', good fire control, etc.)? I honestly would never have guessed it even remotely possible. 



			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> can punch body armour (soft) if need be and Plates with a NSR failure drill.



Ok, I got everything up to 'NSR failure drill'.....maybe it's a brainfart, but this is the first I've heard this. What is that?


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## 3rd Herd (20 Jan 2006)

Kevin first of all thanks for taking the time out to re-educate and educate some of us. Have you tried any of the Soviets weapons in this genre? I fired a couple on a familiarization down in Lewis along with the hush puppy, on my last trip to Moscow got to "familiarize" myself with some of their newer equipment. Mind you the are still going the sub sonic cartridge route and having extreme difficulty with consistant ammo quality.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2006)

> Uhm no.
> 
> They will hear the CRACK anyway - hopefully a really good sick thud too (bullets into flesh).



Someone said there is no "silencers" just suppressed weapons?

I'm basing my comment off something I read from a Vietnam SOG discussing the pro's and con's of "silenced" weapons. In the book it sounded like these modified M16s were silenced or suppressed to the point where the enemy could not hear them fired, period.  In one account a shooter hit a VC three times, of which the VC attempted to brush away what he thought were insect bites. The rounds from the m16 lost so much energy or whatever that the bullets didn't even penetrate the skin.


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## KevinB (20 Jan 2006)

Ghost -- too much Fiction got put into the non fiction book..
 The only credible account I have heard was from Maj. John Plaster [Ultimate Sniper (In)fame(my)] - where he shot at VC with a suppressed Swedish K in 9mm ported bbl and old wipe type suppressor - the SIONICS and (name escpaes me now) where the ony two types of suppressor used on the M16 and CAR-15 rifles in Vietnam NONE where anyway near silent - they where not wipe cans either but early baffle designs - they did not degrade the velocity.
 I both read Plaster account and had it retold by Gene "recon" Econ of 1SFG fame (and some minor mention in the CF Somalia Inquiry...)  Futhermore I've seen the Vietnam SOG weapons collection and shot a few and seen others fired.
 Secondly I am a big fan of the Enemy not knowing I am shooting at them 1) they tend not to shoot at you since they dont know where you are 2) they tend not to look for cover making it easier to play 1 Little 2 Little 3 Little Indians with them. 3) I'm not very sporting, a buddy of mine shot over 30 Talib's one night under 300m - they never came close to hitting him... I'm a firm beleiver in a Fair fight is the one I win.

Caesar - NSR is Non Standard Responce - Instead of a head shot in responce to a failure to stop drill you simply keep firing into the COM until the target goes down -- a plate cannot take that many round before it will fail and 5-6 should be enough to penetrae as long as they are similarily located.  The theory behind this is the head is a very hard object to hit when you and the tgt are both moving - as well it pivots on three axis so it bobs and weaves on its own as well as the body.


CTC Gagetown - the Inf School has shot the C9 and C6 suppressed - for a while there was great interest in a suppressed C9 as the #4 man weapon in the .50cal HTI sniper det.


3rd Herd -- my experience with Russian weapons is on older stuff and nothing suppressed - I thought the AKSU-74 "Krinkov" was high speed for them    I have noted the Russian SF units (at least CT guys) are adopting M4's and US gadgets...


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## scm77 (20 Jan 2006)

Video of a suppressed C9 being fired.

http://www.canadiantactical.ca/Video/SuppressedC9.mpg


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## dutchie (20 Jan 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Caesar - NSR is Non Standard Responce - Instead of a head shot in responce to a failure to stop drill you simply keep firing into the COM until the target goes down -- a plate cannot take that many round before it will fail and 5-6 should be enough to penetrae as long as they are similarily located.  The theory behind this is the head is a very hard object to hit when you and the tgt are both moving - as well it pivots on three axis so it bobs and weaves on its own as well as the body.



Sounds good to me. Thanks again.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2006)

Awesome post KevinB, thanks. Your points beat mine 



> The only credible account I have heard was from Maj. John Plaster [Ultimate Sniper (In)fame(my)]



This guy is pretty cool. I chatted with him a few times. I wrote him asking him where I could buy more of his books and he sent me about 11 or 12 novels and books (including the Ultimate sniper) for free. Couldn't believe it.


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