# DUI - Effects on Joining?



## IanLookingForInfo (25 Jun 2001)

I am new to the whole thing, have not even joined basic trainning yet, but need to know about things first. I was recently charged with a DUI(driving under the influence) . This was the worst thing that could happen cause now I have to wait another 6 months to join, so I was told. That is not my major problem. I have been looking into the JTF for some time now and really want to get into it. Now I know that you can't join if you have files for bankrupcy so what I want to know is a DUI charge going to eliminate my chances of getting in or not. Thank you in advance for any info.


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## renegade68 (26 Jun 2001)

As far as your DUI goes, If after keeping your nose clean for a few years you will be able to apply for a pardon. I am not sure how long you will have to wait but I would presume your legal counsel would know. Unless things have changed you can not just join JTF2 . You will have to serve in a unit and apply.


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## sbaker1 (5 Nov 2003)

I am going to be dropping off my application for the infantry and I was wondering if the fact that I have a criminal record will keep me from being accepted. I was charged with a DUI and driving while suspended.  It was about two years ago and I‘ve been to jail and served my time.  It is a thing of the past and I don‘t want it to get in the way of my career choices.  so will it ?


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## combat_medic (5 Nov 2003)

In a word, yes. Any kind of criminal history, especially one for which you went to prison would be a serious detrement to you joining the forces.


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## canadiankid74 (7 May 2009)

hey guys im new to this site..  was poking around but couldnt find exactly what i was looking for...  my question is,  can you join if you declare bankrupcy? i mean i have done well for a while but the housing market kinda sunk and i declared bankrupcy on my business..  mind you a small business,  and the only thing i xdeclared bank rupcy on was my truck..  so how bad is this????


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## RetiredRoyal (7 May 2009)

i was charged and convicted of impaired driving in 1983 while a private in the infantry. I informed my CoC, got a royal a$$ chewing, did every extra duty in the unit for about 6 months.

About 2 yrs after, i held a top secret security clearance. I left the forces, came back from civvy street, not the supp list, with the conviction still on my record. I currently hold a secret security clearance. The only issue i ever have with it is getting extra prints done when i get my security clearance updated. I should get a pardon, i just haven't.

Recruiting group requires that you have not outstanding legal obligations, ie, unresolved legal issues. They will decide, based on the the convictions, if you are good to go or not.

As far as bankruptcy goes, I think you have to be discharged as it is an outstanding legal obligation. I'm not certain though.


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## mariomike (7 May 2009)

Office Linebacker said:
			
		

> As far as bankruptcy goes, I think you have to be discharged as it is an outstanding legal obligation. I'm not certain though.



I'm not certain about DUI, but here is a poster:


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## bran (7 May 2009)

A buddy of mine had a DUI before joining the reserves and was accepted, although I'm sure every situation is looked at differently


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## ComdCFRG (7 May 2009)

For all:

Every case is considered on it's merits.  The fact that you have been convicted of a misdemeanour or crime does not automatically bar you from joining the CF.  The type of crime(s), the punishment and other obligations ordered by the court as well as conduct during parole, letters of recommendation, time since occurrence(s) etc weigh into the considerations as to whether or not you are suitable for enrolment.

Be realistic with yourself however - serious/violent/recent crimes will argue against your acceptance by an organisation that stresses disicipline/orderly application of force under direction/trustworthiness in the near future or even at all in some cases.

That being said, the only sure way to know if you are going to be considered for enrolment is to go and make application, be honest about your history (the reliability check will show up any issues in any event, so be up front about it) bring along reference letters etc to show that you have learned from your mistake and then see what happens.

MKO


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## jcl (13 Jan 2011)

Good day,

I'm a Pre service fire grad with lots of training under my belt currently working in the safety and training industry.

I recently was charged with an over 80mg charge, but will be going to trial in hopes of beating this charge.

I have an interest in joining the CF for Firefighting, military police or medical officer if possible.

Would a pending DUI prevent me from joining?

Thanks in advance


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## Container (13 Jan 2011)

You have to be free of legal obligations as far as I have been informed. DUI= legal obligation.

Also- I would be surprised if you are competitive for the military police after your problem. It doesnt preclude you but it makes you less desirable. 

Unless youre convicted....


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## KnightShift (13 Jan 2011)

jcl said:
			
		

> And for the people who want to play god and bash me, save your typing skills and write a book.



That's a fantastic way to end a post....why not wait and see what others have to say before going straight on the defensive?


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## Container (13 Jan 2011)

TK-421 said:
			
		

> That's a fantastic way to end a post....why not wait and see what others have to say before going straight on the defensive?



Thats because deep down inside he already knows the answer.


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## jcl (13 Jan 2011)

TK-421 said:
			
		

> That's a fantastic way to end a post....why not wait and see what others have to say before going straight on the defensive?



I ended without that, but being on forums in the past, I figured id add that.

But you are right, i haven't been on these forums and I may be suprised with the replies I  receive.

 I appreciate your input.


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## jcl (13 Jan 2011)

Container said:
			
		

> You have to be free of legal obligations as far as I have been informed. DUI= legal obligation.
> 
> Also- I would be surprised if you are competitive for the military police after your problem. It doesnt preclude you but it makes you less desirable.
> 
> Unless youre convicted....



Makes sense, I'll visit a recruiter and see what they have to say.

Thanks


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## greentoblue (13 Jan 2011)

The Cdn military is not the French Foreign Legion and the days when judges gave the option between jail or the Army ended long ago.  You must be free of all legal obligations prior to joining the military.  You can still apply but your application really won't go anywhere until the legal process is completed.  That obligation applies to those charged criminally as well as anyone going through divorce, been ordered to testify, fighting an insurance settlement, etc.  If you do not disclose your legal status and you do get enrolled but get caught later you will be charged for an improper enrolment (more legal troubles) and released as you have committed an act of fraud against the Crown.


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## KnightShift (13 Jan 2011)

jcl said:
			
		

> I ended without that, but being on forums and always reading someone playing high and mighty I just put it.
> 
> But you are right, i haven't been on these forums and I may be suprised with the replies i will receive.
> 
> But I appreciate your input.



No problem!

Enjoy the forums, there's alot of great information and great people on hear to learn from.


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## jcl (13 Jan 2011)

greentoblue said:
			
		

> The Cdn military is not the French Foreign Legion and the days when judges gave the option between jail or the Army ended long ago.  You must be free of all legal obligations prior to joining the military.  You can still apply but your application really won't go anywhere until the legal process is completed.  That obligation applies to those charged criminally as well as anyone going through divorce, been ordered to testify, fighting an insurance settlement, etc.  If you do not disclose your legal status and you do get enrolled but get caught later you will be charged for an improper enrolment (more legal troubles) and released as you have committed an act of fraud against the Crown.



Well I definately won't be doing that, nor do I have nothing to hide.

Thank you.


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## jcl (13 Jan 2011)

TK-421 said:
			
		

> No problem!
> 
> Enjoy the forums, there's alot of great information and great people on hear to learn from.



Thanks, I  didn't mean to come off as defensive.


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## jcl (14 Jan 2011)

jcl said:
			
		

> Well I definately won't be doing that, nor do I have nothing to hide.
> 
> Thank you.



Lets say my legal issues are complete, and say I was convicted of a dui charge.  Would I be elgible to join the military and persue a university career?


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## McG (14 Jan 2011)

jcl said:
			
		

> Would a pending DUI prevent me from joining?


Just based on what we do with serving personnel that are convicted of driving under the influence, I would expect that, should you be convicted, the CF would not consider your file for at least one year after the conviction.


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## jcl (14 Jan 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> Just based on what we do with serving personnel that are convicted of driving under the influence, I would expect that, should you be convicted, the CF would not consider your file for at least one year after the conviction.



doh!


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## CombatDoc (14 Jan 2011)

jcl said:
			
		

> Lets say my legal issues are complete, and say I was convicted of a dui charge.  Would I be elgible to join the military and persue a university career?


The CF policy towards DUI has recently taken a much harder line in terms of consequences, although I don't have the DAOD or CANFORGEN in front of me.   Essentially, for serving members who are charged with alcohol-related offences your file is sent up the food chain to Ottawa for a review by Director Military Careers.  With a existing DUI conviction I suspect your chances of entry are slim, but the only way to find out is to check with the recruiters.  I have the new policy in my office, so I'll try to get the reference today.


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## greentoblue (14 Jan 2011)

jcl said:
			
		

> Lets say my legal issues are complete, and say I was convicted of a dui charge.  Would I be elgible to join the military and persue a university career?



Okay this is a hypothetical situation so giving a straight answer is impossible.  You have to talk to your recruiter as they will have access to all the latest Recruiting Group directives and can consult the specialist Personnel Selection Officers and Career Counsellors.  I can say that Recruiting Group directives can and do change.  However, your best bet is that you have a good lawyer to represent you to defeat the charge as well as staying away from the booze or putting yourself in a position to be compromised.  Believe me, we're not saints but we do expect people trying to join us to maintain a certain standard of conduct.  In fact on-and-off duty conduct is an assessment factor right on the annual performance review.

Also, if university education is what you want, you need to work on your spelling ie "elgible" and "persue."  From personal experience I can tell you that there is no mercy for an officer or officer wannabe with poor English skills.


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## jcl (14 Jan 2011)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> The CF policy towards DUI has recently taken a much harder line in terms of consequences, although I don't have the DAOD or CANFORGEN in front of me.   Essentially, for serving members who are charged with alcohol-related offences your file is sent up the food chain to Ottawa for a review by Director Military Careers.  With a existing DUI conviction I suspect your chances of entry are slim, but the only way to find out is to check with the recruiters.  I have the new policy in my office, so I'll try to get the reference today.



I expect as much, sucks to hear but that's reality.

Thanks man.


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## George Wallace (14 Jan 2011)

greentoblue said:
			
		

> Also, if university education is what you want, you need to work on your spelling ie "elgible" and "persue."  From personal experience I can tell you that there is no mercy for an officer or officer wannabe with poor English skills.



 ;D

That should include "double negatives".  I found this amusing:



			
				jcl said:
			
		

> Well I definately won't be doing that, nor do I have nothing to hide.
> 
> Thank you.


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## brihard (15 Jan 2011)

I'll be perfectly blunt, and this isn't to 'bash' you, this is to situate you properly. The CF is not a dumping ground for those lacking the judgment to make it in other careers. 

As a matter of policy, all legal obligations must be discharged before your application will go anywhere. This will likely include sentencing conditions such as any period of probation. If you 'beat' the charge as you put it, the CF cannot discriminate against you in terms of employment, though it's possible that it may still affect your application for MP. The MPs are, after all, a police force. You must prove yourself to be possessed of the maturity and judgement to be entrusted with the role they fill even here at home. 

If you are convicted, then you are a convicted criminal and will have a substantially harder time getting into the C.F. MP is out, as is undoubtedly medical officer. The recruiting for Med O is a different thing altogether anyway, but I cannot conceive of the C.F. taking someone who's just gotten a DUI and paying their way through med school. Firefighter is also very hard to get into directly, most (if not all) people getting in are transfers form other trades. I do not imagine you would be competitive with no military experience and a recent criminal conviction.

Past whatever mandated waiting period there is post conviction you will still, with a criminal record, be competing for any job with those without one. The C.F. attracts a lot of recruits, and the doors aren't exactly open these days.  Put it this way: if a civilian police force, firefighting organization, or medical school wouldn't take you under these conditions, why should the military?

That's not to say you will not be successful in getting into the CF at all, but you've named three trades that range from somewhat to extremely ambitious. Check with the recruiters, but also realize that your judgment will be distrusted for quite some time to come. I would hope, frankly, that with our recruiting intake being as limited as it is that you would not be considered competitive for several years at least. Play it straight and prove to the military that you deserve a spot. If convicted, you'll be starting with a hell of a disadvantage.


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## pontcanna (16 Jan 2011)

If convicted, my best guess would be that the sentence would have to be satisfied and a pardon granted. How long that takes depends on whether Crown proceeds with the charge as a summary or indictable offence (impaired/.08 is a hybrid offence, I believe). Pardon can be granted after 5 years for an indictable conviction and 3 years for summary conviction.


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

Good luck and I sincerely hope you walk away with a conditional or suspended sentence.


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## PuckChaser (17 Jan 2011)

Jaycan said:
			
		

> a large donation to a charity in the judges name. It happens all the time!!



That sounds awfully close to the line of what a bribe is... that judge will get tax credit for the donation, effectively giving him/her money.


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## aesop081 (17 Jan 2011)

Ahh....legal advice from random anonymous strangers on the internet.

Always reliable of course.........

 :


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## Container (17 Jan 2011)

nevermind. What an officer you'll make- suggesting people misrepresent themselves to the court and drag their feet and burden the system.


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2011)

Container said:
			
		

> nevermind. What an officer you'll make- suggesting people misrepresent themselves to the court and drag their feet and burden the system.


Well, to be fair to the officers, although _Jaycan_'s profile claims he's a Naval Cadet, his posts say he hasn't even done his CFAT yet. There's a history of misrepresentation.

Of course, he did show up with a masters degree, stating that the Recruiter's "eyes light up when she saw that. I felt from that moment on she was catering to me" -- I've no doubt that Recruiters have multiple orgasms when such unabashed awesomeness walks in; probably no misrepresentation there.


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## martr (17 Jan 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That sounds awfully close to the line of what a bribe is... that judge will get tax credit for the donation, effectively giving him/her money.



I was thinking the same thing; isn't that a bribe?

A large donation under your own name, sure.. but under the name of the person deciding your fate in an effort to get a better (for you) decision? 

For fun, I looked into the definition of bribery:
Bribery, a form of corruption, is an act implying money or gift given that alters the behavior of the recipient.


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

Tax receipts are not issued if through a court. And you write it in the judges name for administrative purposes to keep track of who rendered the sentence and that it is indeed from a court. The judge receives no tax credit, nor do you. Under charity law, to qualify as a gift a payment must be voluntary. A payment that results from a court order, even if the taxpayer was given a choice between making a payment and some other penalty, cannot be said to be voluntary. Therefore, if a company or individual is ordered by a court to give money to charity, the charity cannot issue an official donation receipt for the amount it receives. If needed, the charity can issue an ordinary receipt to acknowledge such a payment.


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## martr (17 Jan 2011)

Thank you!! I will fall asleep less stupid today!


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## aesop081 (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> Tax receipts are not issued if through a court. And you write it in the judges name for administrative purposes to keep track of who rendered the sentence. Under charity law, to qualify as a gift a payment must be voluntary. A payment that results from a court order, even if the taxpayer was given a choice between making a payment and some other penalty, cannot be said to be voluntary. Therefore, if a company or individual is ordered by a court to give money to charity, the charity cannot issue an official donation receipt for the amount it receives. If needed, the charity can issue an ordinary receipt to acknowledge such a payment.



Lovely........more anonymous legal advice...........


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

yup and thanks for reading


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2011)

Deleting the offending thread is good. 

However, upon changing your name from _jaycan_ to the much more creative _jcan_, you may wish to read this from the DS:


> *Changing Your User Name *
> .....seeing a new name online, can really annoy the Staff. We do respect your right for privacy so it is requested should you wish to change your name, let the Staff know so at least we can keep track of our members here.




Just doing my bit to make the stay of those members who find reading the guidelines too onerous, a little less miserable.


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

I would first start by saying my comment was not in any way "offending." No race, group, individual, plant or planet was made a target or criticized in any form. 

And secondly, thanks for the info.


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> I would first start by saying my comment was not in any way "offending."


Then why did you choose to delete it?


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## aesop081 (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> Perhaps the "integrity" you've said I lack can start with you.



I never said you lacked *integrity*.....I implied you lacked *credibility*.


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

Because I believed we lost touch with what the actual question was all about, and if by deleting my 4 advice points would steer us back on course, than it was worth discarding. I just would like to underline that in no way or form was I ever offensive to anyone, and unless you can show otherwise, then I would retract the use of that word.


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## Container (17 Jan 2011)

It was I who said you lack integrity. Assisting people in avoiding taking responsibility through misrepresentation is not demonstrating integrity- certainly not a quality of someone that I would like to have as a leader.


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## brihard (17 Jan 2011)

Container said:
			
		

> It was I who said you lack integrity. Assisting people in avoiding taking responsibility through misrepresentation is not demonstrating integrity- certainly not a quality of someone that I would like to have as a leader.



I'll second that.

If, as an aspirant officer, your advice to an individual is to dissimulate, delay, and challenge the system rather than take accountability for his own actions, then I sincerely hope that you are unsuccessful in your application until such time as you've given your head a shake and adjusted your value set. Joining the military isn't 'winning the game', it's proving that you are the sort of person that I as a junior leader either want working for me or want to work for, and that I as a taxpayer and citizen would want representing our collective values in the service of our country. I think both you and the original poster have some significant adjustments to make before you're fit for the job.


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

Again, if that is what you read then Iam truly sorry. However, what I did write and what I meant is that it would be a good idea for him to take responsibility first  by enrolling into a AA counseling group and 2) to go back to school to show that he is committed to his future and that a criminal record would impede his success. To undertake this after a charge is not misrepresentation, but rather reflection on the seriousness of his actions and the road blocks that a record creates to a life of productivity and success. That is what I wrote and if you feel that is misrepresenting oneself, than to each is own, no? Bottom line is...take responsibility and demonstrate it to the court by doing the above and much more.


delay, and challenge the system?   Damn right u challenge the system and delay to get your life back on track before you face a judge. I am not going to speculate, but if you were ever in a position that your entire life would change for the negative, you would do everything in your power to challenge things. I am damn proud to say that I live in a country where I can challenge evidence and I can delay  so I can get back on track. You can have your opinion on me and how some navigate our legal system, but I would not condone a person for challenging evidence or allegations made against them or for delaying things so he can deliver a good defense. We tend to discredit other countries that immediately impose sentence on an individual without the chance for the accuse to challenge evidence or mount a good defense, and correct me if I am wrong, but I am certain we have lost hundreds of good men/women in bringing those liberties to others, and yet you imply you are less of a Canadian/soldier/person if you do exercise those rights?  You are no less of a person if you do mount a strong challenge and a strong tactic in clearing your name.   And to think that my stance on this would make me a bad officer is just petty.


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## George Wallace (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> Because I believed we lost touch with what the actual question was all about, and if by deleting my 4 advice points would steer us back on course, than it was worth discarding. I just would like to underline that in no way or form was I ever offensive to anyone.



jcan/jaycan

It now appears that you really are not an honest participant in these threads.  You have completely removed a post that has been replied to several times, and now this whole thread is disjointed and convoluted due to your actions.  Your credibility has suffered much by your actions.  If we have to rely on quoting you with every reply we make, so as to maintain the flow of the discussion for future readers, we may have to consider you a TROLL.  I hope that this has been a single incident and not to become a common practice of yours.


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> I just would like to underline that in no way or form was I ever offensive to anyone, and unless you can show otherwise, then I would retract the use of that word.


Allow me to explain the meaning of "offensive":


> *of·fen·sive*
> –adjective
> 1. causing resentful displeasure; highly irritating, angering, or annoying: offensive television commercials.
> 2. unpleasant or disagreeable to the sense: an offensive odor.
> 3. repugnant to the moral sense, good taste, or the like; insulting: an offensive remark; an offensive joke.


Based on the responses your post received, I'd suggest your explanation was perceived as displeasing, irritating and repugnant to the moral sense.

Now perhaps that's because we are from different communities; those who posted their annoyance and questioned your credibility and integrity are actually serving CF members -- personal integrity is valued. 

You however, are a civie whose profile misrepresents you as a Naval Cadet and you posted information on how to utilize legal technicalities and foot-dragging techniques to "beat the system" -- no integrity has been demonstrated, and your post has been deemed to be offensive to this community's standards.


Ergo, no retraction of the word "offensive" is required.  


Edit: typo, not to change what I've said so as to change the meaning of my posts once called on it.


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

I don't necessarily agree with your use of offensive in relation to what I have posted, but if you feel that it is used appropriately then I will respect your opinion and hope you can respect my disagreement. I do hope we can find comon ground on an issue soon enough.


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> .....I would not condone a person for challenging evidence.....


Even with continually changing your posts you can't get it right: "condemn"



> And to think that my stance on this would make me a bad officer is just petty.


Again, the people making said judgement are serving CF members, whose experience qualifies them to hold such opinions. It's not your lack of military experience, however, that has a growing number of forum members calling your judgement into question.

As for finding "common ground," it's appearing that all _but one_ have found common ground; yet that _one_ expects the others to "respect" him being the only one in step. I guess that's just another "military thing" -- that respect is earned.


So for me, I'm done here.     :brickwall:  gets tiresome.


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## George Wallace (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> I don't necessarily agree with your use of offensive in relation to what I have posted, but if you feel that it is used appropriately then I will respect your opinion and hope you can respect my disagreement. I do hope we can find comon ground on an issue soon enough.



Perhaps you may not feel that what you posted is offensive, but the manner in which you posted is.  You have completely deleted your five or six points to the OP, with your "father's Legal advice" and changed the whole usefulness of this thread.  You have edited out facts after replies were made to them and you felt threatened.  Your credibility and integrity have been brought into question, and yet you still continue.  Yes, people here may, and have the right to, feel offended by you.


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## JesseWZ (17 Jan 2011)

*IF* you get onto a BMOQ... you are going to quickly find out that your instructors will not share your "delay, and challenge the system?   Damn right u challenge the system and delay to get your life back on track" mentality. 

I would like to be there the first time you are handed consequences for your actions.


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## Jaycan (17 Jan 2011)

Obviously, BMOQ is not a court of law nor does it have the power to criminally convict you...a burden you carry for a very long time.  Making a comparison like that is a weak argument and so is suggesting that my opinion to vigorously defend yourself and challenge evidence/allegations in front of any tribunal  would make me 'unfit,' to be an officer is again, a weak argument. My opinions are ‘mine,’ and I’m glad to have had the opportunity to read and comment on others opinions, but in no way would I paint a  picture of who you are or your suitability to be a CF officer based on your opinions expressed here. I believe actions speak louder than words, and judging a person on what he thinks is not and never has been the way to lead or cement friendships. In my very humble opinion, we need to separate how I would defend myself in court to BMOQ, they are two vastly different things with two vastly different outcomes. WHEN I am at BMOQ, I will of course conduct myself in a way that reflects the integrity and purpose of BMOQ, and will accept the consequences for my actions as a learning opportunity and a way to better myself and those I lead. There is a ‘time and place’ for everything, and I do know the difference.  I hope I am there the first time you are handed consequences for your actions, because with any luck I’ll learn something from it, and vise-versa.


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## brihard (17 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> Obviously, BMOQ is not a court of law nor does it have the power to criminally convict you...a burden you carry for a very long time.  Making a comparison like that is a weak argument and so is suggesting that my opinion to vigorously defend yourself and challenge evidence/allegations in front of any tribunal  would make me 'unfit,' to be an officer is again, a weak argument. My opinions are ‘mine,’ and I’m glad to have had the opportunity to read and comment on others opinions, but in no way would I paint a  picture of who you are or your suitability to be a CF officer based on your opinions expressed here. I believe actions speak louder than words, and judging a person on what he thinks is not and never has been the way to lead or cement friendships. In my very humble opinion, we need to separate how I would defend myself in court to BMOQ, they are two vastly different things with two vastly different outcomes. WHEN I am at BMOQ, I will of course conduct myself in a way that reflects the integrity and purpose of BMOQ, and will accept the consequences for my actions as a learning opportunity and a way to better myself and those I lead. There is a ‘time and place’ for everything, and I do know the difference.  I hope I am there the first time you are handed consequences for your actions, because with any luck I’ll learn something from it, and vise-versa.



I'm going to go out on a limb and humbly suggest that  not one of us is too concerned about 'cementing friendships' with one who misrepresents himself as a 'naval cadet' and who offers advice on how to cheat the legal system so as to sneak into the C.F. with a DUI. Moreover, you are certainly not in any position, experientially or academically, to offer any credible advice on the ability of serving members to judge the suitability of someone who aspires to be an officer. Nor, frankly, have you any place questioning the manner in which we lead- most of us being leaders in actuality.

In the C.F., words ARE actions in their own right, and offer insight into someone's character and integrity. You may profess 'a vigorous defense' all you want, but that flies flat in the face of 'adjourn, adjourn, adjourn and hope they complete the background check before you're convicted'. Not having seen any of your actions, your words are all we have to go on. Frankly I'm not impressed.


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## JesseWZ (20 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> In my very humble opinion, we need to separate how I would defend myself in court to BMOQ, they are two vastly different things with two vastly different outcomes. WHEN I am at BMOQ, I will of course conduct myself in a way that reflects the integrity and purpose of BMOQ, and will accept the consequences for my actions as a learning opportunity and a way to better myself and those I lead. There is a ‘time and place’ for everything, and I do know the difference.  I hope I am there the first time you are handed consequences for your actions, because with any luck I’ll learn something from it, and vise-versa.



Forgive me if I am reading too much between the lines, but where you say WHEN you are on BMOQ you will conduct yourself with integrity, does that also mean that when you are not being hard assessed, or in uniform, or on a course that you will instead demonstrate a lack of integrity? 
*IF* you join the CF, you are a soldier, sailor or air-person ALL the time. There are no individual times for which to demonstrate integrity, and which to not.  I don't pretend to be a perfect person, and when I was on BMOQ, I did screw up from time to time, and I was handed consequences from time to time. You say that there is a time and a place for everything, but with integrity, it is all the time, and every place. 


I wanted to figure out a way to work this quote into my response, but since I couldn't, I'm just going to put it at the bottom.  ;D

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands,
hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken


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## Nemo888 (20 Jan 2011)

DUI's are a serious issue. I remember seeing an Officer force someone off the road and into the ditch after a particularly rowdy mess dinner. I was standing beside a Capt. and I got the license number. I was told in no uncertain terms that pursuing this would be a BIG mistake. I was an unhooked Pvt at  the time. 

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"


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## larry Strong (20 Jan 2011)

If you blew over, and unless there are some serious extenuating circumstances, or the arresting officer fouled up the paperwork, or there is some other technical glitch you won't beat the impaired. All you are going to do is waste thousand of dollars to some already overpaid shyster. There is nothing a lawyer can do.

My advice is to take your lumps, save you money - or more likely Mom and Dad's money and move on. As a point of interest I have had more than a handfull of impaired in my time....so been there, done that............


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## ARMY_101 (22 Jan 2011)

jcan said:
			
		

> delay, and challenge the system?   Damn right u challenge the system and delay to get your life back on track before you face a judge. I am not going to speculate, but if you were ever in a position that your entire life would change for the negative, you would do everything in your power to challenge things. I am damn proud to say that I live in a country where I can challenge evidence and I can delay  so I can get back on track.



The individual admits he was drinking and driving, and ended up blowing over the legal limit.  This isn't as if it were a framing job by the police or there was some sort of malpractice by the police in investigating and catching the individual.  He knows he did something wrong, why challenge and delay it?


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## larry Strong (22 Jan 2011)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> The individual admits he was drinking and driving, and ended up blowing over the legal limit.  This isn't as if it were a framing job by the police or there was some sort of malpractice by the police in investigating and catching the individual.  He knows he did something wrong, why challenge and delay it?



It's usually done to avoid losing ones vehicle or licence, generally due to work requirements, i.e. the need to get to it, or you drive for a living. Most truck related companies will release employee's upon conviction.


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## ARMY_101 (22 Jan 2011)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> It's usually done to avoid losing ones vehicle or licence, generally due to work requirements, i.e. the need to get to it, or you drive for a living. Most truck related companies will release employee's upon conviction.



Very true, but the comment to which I was responding was suggesting that the person stall the case simply because we live in a country where that can be done.  Stalling a case shouldn't happen, especially when the person knows what they've done (they admitted to it).  If there were legitimate grounds for the challenge like I said above (e.g. the police were abusive or doing something illegal to force him to blow over the legal limit) then sure, challenging the case is totally acceptable.  But to just stall for the sake of stalling just makes a mockery out of the situation and prolongs the inevitable conviction anyways.


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## Retired AF Guy (23 Jan 2011)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Very true, but the comment to which I was responding was suggesting that the person stall the case simply because we live in a country where that can be done.  Stalling a case shouldn't happen, especially when the person knows what they've done (they admitted to it).  If there were legitimate grounds for the challenge like I said above (e.g. the police were abusive or doing something illegal to force him to blow over the legal limit) then sure, challenging the case is totally acceptable.  But to just stall for the sake of stalling just makes a mockery out of the situation and prolongs the inevitable conviction anyways.



Deliberate stalling could blow-up in his face. Nothing like wasting precious court time to will peeve-off the judge big time; not exactly the best course of action.


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## Brasidas (23 Jan 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Deliberate stalling could blow-up in his face. Nothing like wasting precious court time to will peeve-off the judge big time; not exactly the best course of action.



Right. The guy should just consult a lawyer, discuss his options, and hopefully get some mileage out of it. Sorting out how you're going to resolve things at first appearance is a better bet than "adjourn, adjourn, adjourn".


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## Philippe.Boisseau (4 Apr 2011)

Hello,

I applied for RMC a few months ago and did all the tests I had to do and was recently merit listed. I called this morning to make sure they received my latest report card from school and they told me they did. 

What my recruiter also told me is that before further actions were taken with my admission, somebody had to call me concerning my security check (which was fine last week). He told me that they found "something" and that someone was going to call me today or tomorrow about it.

I had my license suspended 4 months ago for driving under the influence. I HAVE NOT been judge guilty and I am currently contesting the charges. 

I am thinking they are going to call me to ask me about my license getting suspended but I wanted to ask if anyone had similar problems or knew about this case.


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## JMesh (4 Apr 2011)

On a criminal records check, charges currently before the courts (which you stated your's are - you are currently contesting the charges) normally show up, so it's likely in relation to that.

Also, if you're not a currently enrolled member of the CF, please lose the rank as an avatar. There are many people on here who've worked hard to get where they are and to earn the insignia. And yes, it actually does matter quite a bit to many of the people on this site.


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## MikeL (4 Apr 2011)

Call the Recruiting centre and talk to them about it, they will tell you what will apply to your specific case. A DUI won't look good though, just IMO.


Also, untill you are actually in the CF, you may want to change your avatar as you are not yet a OCdt.


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## Philippe.Boisseau (4 Apr 2011)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Call the Recruiting centre and talk to them about it, they will tell you what will apply to your specific case. A DUI won't look good though, just IMO.
> 
> 
> Also, untill you are actually in the CF, you may want to change your avatar as you are not yet a OCdt.



Just did, thanks for the tips. Looking for more info if anyone has any. Going to call the RC soon.


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## infantryian (4 Apr 2011)

Philippe.Boisseau said:
			
		

> I HAVE NOT been judge guilty and I am currently contesting the charges.



Guilty or not, if it is before the courts it is a legal obligation. As far as I understand you must be free of all legal obligations before enrolling. This doesn't necessarily mean you are guilty as even being a witness to a crime needing to testify is considered a legal obligation. It is just easier for all parties involved not to have to deal with anything of that nature.

That being said, I am neither a recruiter nor a lawyer so take it with a grain of salt if you so desire, but I am fairly certain my information is accurate.


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## Precept (4 Apr 2011)

Sapperian said:
			
		

> Guilty or not, if it is before the courts it is a legal obligation. As far as I understand you must be free of all legal obligations before enrolling. This doesn't necessarily mean you are guilty as even being a witness to a crime needing to testify is considered a legal obligation. It is just easier for all parties involved not to have to deal with anything of that nature.
> 
> That being said, I am neither a recruiter nor a lawyer so take it with a grain of salt if you so desire, but I am fairly certain my information is accurate.



I'll stand by you on this one. I was asked about Legal Obligations (pending charges, witness to an event, and even Jury Duty) during my interview and again when they called with my Offer. They won't process an application if you have any.


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## Philippe.Boisseau (6 Apr 2011)

Precept said:
			
		

> I'll stand by you on this one. I was asked about Legal Obligations (pending charges, witness to an event, and even Jury Duty) during my interview and again when they called with my Offer. They won't process an application if you have any.



Talked with the RC ealier today. So basically they're putting my admission file on hold until I am done with the legal process. So when I am done with this in early september they want me to get back to them with the court papers and verdict. Then they can proceed to next step with my file.

I know not much people are in my situation but if it can help anybody... Also, you guys were right, they will not go on with your case if you have ANY legal obligations.


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## rivings (15 Jun 2011)

I am a registered pharmacist and want to join as a Pharmacy officer.  I have an impared driving with body harm charge (due to a car crash and 2nd party injury)  This occured 4 years ago. All legal issues have been dealt with.   How badly will this impact my ability to join?


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## Michael OLeary (15 Jun 2011)

Start your reading here:

site:army.ca DUI


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## mariomike (15 Jun 2011)

This post may help:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22214/post-840092.html?PHPSESSID=tb7rv5s7uipub2kdc107reej13#msg840092


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## 2 Cdo (15 Jun 2011)

While it won't prevent you from enrolling keep in mind that if a selection has to be made between you and another person, who has no criminal record, you will more than likely not be the person getting an offer.


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## MedCorps (15 Jun 2011)

I would encourage you to apply.  We are in dire need of Pharmacy Officers in the CF right now and in fact are offering a signing bonus at this time. 

As long as all the of the personal admin and legal stuff is in order and you can articulate to the CFRC that this was inexcusable and and an isolated event you should be competitive for DEO. 

Cheers, 

MC


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## George Wallace (15 Jun 2011)

rivings said:
			
		

> I am a registered pharmacist and want to join as a Pharmacy officer.  I have an impared driving with body harm charge (due to a car crash and 2nd party injury)  This occured 4 years ago. All legal issues have been dealt with.   How badly will this impact my ability to join?



If you go through the process of getting a Pardon (before they make the rules more strict) you should have NO problems.


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## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

Just looking for OP to follow up on what happened with this if he still uses the forum..I realize this is an old thread, but nonetheless, one on almost exactly my same situation...let me explain.

September 2012, I smashed my car into a pole, and got charged with DUI. I plead guilty (with a lawyer) at the "earliest opportunity" in the court system (aka next court date after getting disclosure) which I was told shows taking accountability (by my lawyer and the judge). I was thus sentenced to one year of "probation" for which my only conditions are to keep the peace, to complete community hours which I've already completed a third of, and to pay a fine which Ive made arrangements to pay this month. My major question is, because I know nobody can give me an exact answer, how likely is this to affect my application? I'm solid in all other areas (average credit, physically fit, college graduate, lots of work experience and references, etc..) but is this considered a "legel obligation" even if by the time I meet with a recruiter the fine will be paid and the hours completed? I would not need to meet with my PO until the end of my probation at that point, and since my interest is in the ROTP, this would not affect my ability to be deployed or anything since thats way down the line anyway...I wouldnt even be able to start school until the probation is over judging by university application deadlines. 

If anyone has an answer or any type of similar experience with something like this, please share it! Obviously, no two situations are the same and nobody can give me a definitive answer, but I'm sure I can at least get an idea of what to expect from some replies. FYI for those of you in a bad mood today, Ive already read that criminal record can affect your application, Im just looking for lived experience applying with a DUI or someone who has applied to CF with a record, or even someone who thinks they have a good answer. If you've read all of this, you deserve my thanks already, so, thank you!


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## DAA (3 Apr 2013)

The proper term is "subject to a judicial obligation".   Hence, probation and the suspension of a drivers licence would fall into this category and make you ineligible for processing and or enrolment in the CF.  Once you have met your "judicial obligations" then you would be eligible for processing.  The next hurdle would be the Criminal Records Name Check and subsequent granting of a "Reliability Clearance" which is part of the processing.  Your previous indescretions would definitely come up and it would be addressed by an MCC at your local recruiting centre at that time.

So after you have met and completed all the judicial obligations awarded, then it would be up to your respective CFRC as to whether or not they would grant you a Reliability Clearance.


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## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

Alright, fairly clear, thanks for the quick reply, and I'll be sure to use the correct terms next time, haha. My next question is then, based on the fact the waiting periods seem to exceed the term remaining on my probation, and my license will be reinstated prior to then as well (though I dont understand why that matters, Im sure theres applicants who get in with no license to begin with), should I file my application documents and wait to speak with a recruiter, or should I wait until the probation period has totally completed? Wait until the last month? Obviously, like everyone else, Id like to get my application processed as quickly as possible, so I'm just trying to figure out the best time to begin all of this.

Also, if this is even an answerable question (maybe from someone who applied with a record before), how likely is this to get my application denied even if I should apply post-probation and license reinstatement? I understand theres a lot of applicants, but it's not like I robbed a bank or molested a kid, and I'm sure many of them wont have the education, experience, physical fitness or whatever their case may be, that I do. Basically I'm asking if I'm on a level playing field with people not scoring perfect in the other areas. Previous posted mentioned it'll be up to a recruiter, I get that, again just looking for an idea of what to expect based on others experiences and knowledge. Thanks again everyone!


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## PuckChaser (3 Apr 2013)

Not like you robbed a bank or molested anyone? What if that pole you hit was a minivan and you wiped out a family? DUI isn't not just an "aww schucks" offense. You'll never have an even playing field until you get a pardon, you have been convicted of a crime, no matter how you look at it.


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## medicineman (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Alright, fairly clear, thanks for the quick reply, and I'll be sure to use the correct terms next time, haha. My next question is then, based on the fact the waiting periods seem to exceed the term remaining on my probation, and my license will be reinstated prior to then as well (though I dont understand why that matters, Im sure theres applicants who get in with no license to begin with),



What matters isn't whether you have a license or not, but that you lost your license and why it happened...the military takes a dim view on DUI these days.



			
				pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> I understand theres a lot of applicants, but it's not like I robbed a bank or molested a kid, and I'm sure many of them wont have the education, experience, physical fitness or whatever their case may be, that I do. Basically I'm asking if I'm on a level playing field with people not scoring perfect in the other areas. Previous posted mentioned it'll be up to a recruiter, I get that, again just looking for an idea of what to expect based on others experiences and knowledge. Thanks again everyone!



Like Puck Chaser said, you'll  likely need a pardon, since IIRC, DUI is actually a Criminal Code offence - they don't care how many pushups you can do or how many letters are after your name at the time of application, but they do care about CCoC offences.

MM


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## brihard (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> I understand theres a lot of applicants, but it's not like I robbed a bank or molested a kid, and I'm sure many of them wont have the education, experience, physical fitness or whatever their case may be, that I do.



Lots of people play sports. Lots of people have gone to college, and many even to university. Lots of people get good grades. Lots of people aren't flaming retards. The great majority of people aren't criminals.

You made a bloody stupid decision which should add will affect your life negatively for some time. The fact that you appear to not grasp the gravity of your error, nor to take seriously the potentially catastrophic damage you could have done to the lives of others, tells me that we can do without you. I'm particularly stunned that you actually think that at this stage in your life given your extremely recent history and ongoing legal issues that you would be a favourable candidate for ROTP, for commissioning, and most importantly for being entrusted with the lives and well being of soldiers under your command.

You may at some point in the future be just the kind of person we're looking for, but you have considerable maturing to do first. I would not want myself or my soldiers to have to work for you at this time.


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## Ducam (3 Apr 2013)

I just went through the process and admitted my current legal status from the get go.

I got a blowing over charge back in 2010. Finally settled the case in 2011 with a conditional discharge with 1 year probation which included a driving suspension and community hours as well as all the usual mandatory things like keep the peace and be of good behaviour.

I know you mentioned having one year probation so I am assuming you were given a conditional discharge and not a conviction. Difference being a conviction requires a pardon and a conditional discharge is sealed once three years from the date of your sentencing is complete.

I applied once finished probation and had my licence back and I was just very honest and up front about everything they asked about it.

Don't hold anything back.

But I am very sure that you need to wait things out until your probation is complete because it is a legal obligation due to you having to see a parole officer. Can't very well do that if you are shipped to BMQ.

During your waiting time for your probation to end I would suggest finding ways to beef your resume.
Volunteering is a great way to show that you are a model citizen, full time job in a position of authority shows leadership and responsibility, single courses at a college or university show initiative in betting yourself and improving your resume.

Been there and done that. No you didn't rob a bank but a crime is a crime and you have to pay the piper.


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## PAdm (3 Apr 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I would not want myself or my soldiers to have to work for you at this time.



Nicely said and a very fair assessment!  The public has to appreciate the enrolment bar has long since been raised.  We are a professional force, not one desperate for any beating pulse.


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## SentryMAn (3 Apr 2013)

I went through this 15 years ago.
It's not an easy road and you will need to pad your resume/file a good bit to overcome the decision to drive while impaired.

If you are convicted and hold a criminal record I would suggest to get a pardon(as I have) for the conviction.

The stupidity in your post, well there's no cure for that and only time might change your thoughts.

I STRONGLY urge you to volunteer at MADD events or at some type of organization that deals with accident victims, their families etc.

When you truly think about what the outcome of your actions could have been that night, the lives effected by hopping in that drivers seat, you'll start to appreciate what others are posting here.

As it is now, I personally do not think you understand what has happened.


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## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Lots of people play sports. Lots of people have gone to college, and many even to university. Lots of people get good grades. Lots of people aren't flaming retards. The great majority of people aren't criminals.
> 
> You made a bloody stupid decision which should add will affect your life negatively for some time. The fact that you appear to not grasp the gravity of your error, nor to take seriously the potentially catastrophic damage you could have done to the lives of others, tells me that we can do without you. I'm particularly stunned that you actually think that at this stage in your life given your extremely recent history and ongoing legal issues that you would be a favourable candidate for ROTP, for commissioning, and most importantly for being entrusted with the lives and well being of soldiers under your command.
> 
> You may at some point in the future be just the kind of person we're looking for, but you have considerable maturing to do first. I would not want myself or my soldiers to have to work for you at this time.



I think you and the others above may have misunderstood what I meant. I agree with you, I made a very stupid decision. I could have hurt or killed someone, not to mention myself. I feel incredibly bad about it and have since it happened, even moreso now that I've learned it will likely have a negative impact on my opportunities with the forces. So, please, don't think that I feel what I did is insignificant, it's not, I simply meant that the law is pretty clear on the fact that DUI is not as serious as bank robbery and child molestation. Also, I don't think I'd be a favorable candidate, which is why I'm here asking these questions and asking for the knowledge and experience of those who know more than I do about this subject, such as yourself. I agree also that I have maturing to do, and hope to better myself with or without a place in the forces...I'd just much rather do it with. If you asked me to lead your soldiers at this exact point in my life, I'd tell you I didn't feel I was ready for the responsibility, because I'm not. Would I be ready wit more education, more years gone by in my life, and a solid amount of training in the army? I'm almost sure of it, that's why I'm interested.

Duncam, that information is somewhat relieving, however, it was a conviction I recieved and not a conditional discharge. The fact you were honest about it anyway and were still accepted is good news on that note. Also, I do hold down a full time job in social services as well as working part-time in security (mostly large events/bodyguard services at this point). I have some volunteering under my belt, but maybe thats something I should into doing more of...do any particular places stand to recruiters more? College courses, should my finances permit, are also an idea I'd considered, especially since many are conducted online now. Any other suggestions? Thanks again to everyone, though not all the news made me smile, I appreciate knowing!


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## DAA (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Alright, fairly clear, thanks for the quick reply, and I'll be sure to use the correct terms next time, haha. My next question is then, based on the fact the waiting periods seem to exceed the term remaining on my probation, and my license will be reinstated prior to then as well (though I dont understand why that matters, Im sure theres applicants who get in with no license to begin with), should I file my application documents and wait to speak with a recruiter, or should I wait until the probation period has totally completed? Wait until the last month? Obviously, like everyone else, Id like to get my application processed as quickly as possible, so I'm just trying to figure out the best time to begin all of this.
> 
> Also, if this is even an answerable question (maybe from someone who applied with a record before), how likely is this to get my application denied even if I should apply post-probation and license reinstatement? I understand theres a lot of applicants, but it's not like I robbed a bank or molested a kid, and I'm sure many of them wont have the education, experience, physical fitness or whatever their case may be, that I do. Basically I'm asking if I'm on a level playing field with people not scoring perfect in the other areas. Previous posted mentioned it'll be up to a recruiter, I get that, again just looking for an idea of what to expect based on others experiences and knowledge. Thanks again everyone!



You can apply, every Canadian Citizen has the "right" to make application.  Chances are your application will not go anywhere and you will be advised that "Due to judicial obligations which you have declared.....etc, etc, you are currently not eligible for processing, blah blah blah"

Your other question can't be answered with any certainty until after you are "eligible" for processing and then should your file be forwarded to your local CFRC, it will be at the discretion of your MCC (Military Career Counsellor) and not a Recruiter.  And while some people like to "minimize" such offences as DUI and as kindly mentioned above, it is still an offence under the "Criminal Code of Canada" and does have repurcussions.


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## brihard (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> I think you and the others above may have misunderstood what I meant. I agree with you, I made a very stupid decision. I could have hurt or killed someone, not to mention myself. I feel incredibly bad about it and have since it happened, even moreso now that I've learned it will likely have a negative impact on my opportunities with the forces. So, please, don't think that I feel what I did is insignificant, it's not, I simply meant that the law is pretty clear on the fact that DUI is not as serious as bank robbery and child molestation. Also, I don't think I'd be a favorable candidate, which is why I'm here asking these questions and asking for the knowledge and experience of those who know more than I do about this subject, such as yourself. I agree also that I have maturing to do, and hope to better myself with or without a place in the forces...I'd just much rather do it with. If you asked me to lead your soldiers at this exact point in my life, I'd tell you I didn't feel I was ready for the responsibility, because I'm not. Would I be ready wit more education, more years gone by in my life, and a solid amount of training in the army? I'm almost sure of it, that's why I'm interested.
> 
> Duncam, that information is somewhat relieving, however, it was a conviction I recieved and not a conditional discharge. The fact you were honest about it anyway and were still accepted is good news on that note. Also, I do hold down a full time job in social services as well as working part-time in security (mostly large events/bodyguard services at this point). I have some volunteering under my belt, but maybe thats something I should into doing more of...do any particular places stand to recruiters more? College courses, should my finances permit, are also an idea I'd considered, especially since many are conducted online now. Any other suggestions? Thanks again to everyone, though not all the news made me smile, I appreciate knowing!



Fair enough. Bear in mind also that Duncam is applying for NCM, whereas you're applying for an ROTP officer position. Those tend to be quite a bit harder to get into than noncommissioned combat arms trades. You have a considerable uphill struggle ahead of you, as the recruiting system is as much concerned with 'what is your potential NOW?' versus 'what potential might you have if you pay for you to go to university for four years?'. You likely won't look like a good bet next to many others. I would have backup plans to ROTP, both within and without the military.


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## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I went through this 15 years ago.
> It's not an easy road and you will need to pad your resume/file a good bit to overcome the decision to drive while impaired.
> 
> If you are convicted and hold a criminal record I would suggest to get a pardon(as I have) for the conviction.
> ...



Well, hopefully your opinion changes after reading my above post...again I feel theres been a pretty big misunderstanding about what I meant. However, your idea about volunteering with MADD has given me an idea regarding the latter part of my above post, and maybe that would help to show a recruiter I've learned from what I've done and understand the magnitude. 

Again not to take away from the seriousness of what I did, but this is also a crime that many people have comitted and not been caught for. I got caught, and I took responsibility for it in court. I get that most people aren't criminals, but most people aren't applying to the army either, so I'm looking to learn about where I stand with my fellow applicants overall. Thanks everyone.


----------



## DAA (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Again not to take away from the seriousness of what I did, but this is also a crime that many people have comitted and not been caught for. I got caught, and I took responsibility for it in court.



There you go again......you are still minimizing the fact that you have been convicted, where others haven't.  And you took responsibility because you had no choice but to.

What's done is done and can't be undone for some time.  Now you have to just live with it.


----------



## SeR (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Again not to take away from the seriousness of what I did, but this is also a crime that many people have comitted and not been caught for. I got caught, and I took responsibility for it in court. I get that most people aren't criminals, but most people aren't applying to the army either, so I'm looking to learn about where I stand with my fellow applicants overall. Thanks everyone.



If you didn't take responsibility for it in the first place, odds are that it would have only been a matter of time before you were proven guilty, so that really doesn't change things at all.

When Brihard said that most people aren't criminals, he was referring to other applicants, so I don't really see why you mentioned that most people don't apply to the Forces.

Finally, no need to answer to this last comment. Put yourself in the position of a member of the selection board. Would you rather hire an applicant who has less extra curriculars and slightly lower grades, or would you rather hire the guy who has committed a crime and just finished probation?

Just something to think about.


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## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> There you go again......you are still minimizing the fact that you have been convicted, where others haven't.  And you took responsibility because you had no choice but to.
> 
> What's done is done and can't be undone for some time.  Now you have to just live with it.



OK I see what you're saying, but I'm hardly the first forces applicant with a record. Not sure where I'm minimizing it, it's a simple fact...I have a conviction on my record, there's no making it more or less important. I'm just saying, I'm clearly not the first and certainly won't be the last. Also, sure, I may have been convicted at trial, I actually had a very good potential defense in that my breath sample could easily have been contaminated by the prior surgery on my lip. I took responsibility because I wanted to, because I knew what I did was wrong, and that it would only be worse to waste tens of thousands of tax dollars on a trial when I knew I was guilty, even if I was found not guilty.

As for SeR, I'm sure thats what brihard meant, and I'm not arguing with him, but this seems to be becoming more about people ranting on the seriousness of drunk driving or why they think I haven't learned my lesson. Unless you're the one deciding if I'm in or out, none of that really matters. That's why I made the comment you referred to. My honest answer to the latter part of your post is that is judge neither solely based on their grades, or their criminal record, but more on their character. Someone who's had had to learn the hard way knows better than someone else who never has, and really, there's less reoffenders for what I did than there are first timers...thus, the young (say my age, 22) man/woman you described in comparison to me is statistically more likely to drink and drive than I am...just something to keep in mind. And before you lose it, yes, I get that having a record period shows you can make bad choices, I'm just saying everyone CAN and does make bad choices, not everyone gets caught, and an even smaller amount take responsibility when they do.


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> OK I see what you're saying, but I'm hardly the first forces applicant with a record. Not sure where I'm minimizing it, it's a simple fact...I have a conviction on my record, there's no making it more or less important. I'm just saying, I'm clearly not the first and certainly won't be the last.



Yep, and since the CF is full, your record is going to put you at the bottom of the pile. You and another applicant have the exact same file, but yours has a DUI. Guess who gets picked? You made a life choice, pled guilty and now have to live with that life choice. A pardon clears your record and you look like an average joe again. Considering we kick people out for alcohol misconduct, you want to start your career with one strike already against you?


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## SeR (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Someone who's had had to learn the hard way knows better than someone else who never has.



Or perhaps the person who never had to "learn the hard way" already knew better.  :



			
				pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> There's less reoffenders for what I did than there are first timers...thus, the young (say my age, 22) man/woman you described in comparison to me is statistically more likely to drink and drive than I am.



As far as the CF (or *any employer*) is concerned, they don't care if you are "statistically [less] likely" to re-offend. What they care about is that you have a criminal past, whereas other applicants don't.


----------



## DAA (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> OK I see what you're saying, but I'm hardly the first forces applicant with a record. Not sure where I'm minimizing it, it's a simple fact...I have a conviction on my record, there's no making it more or less important. I'm just saying, I'm clearly not the first and certainly won't be the last. Also, sure, I may have been convicted at trial, I actually had a very good potential defense in that my breath sample could easily have been contaminated by the prior surgery on my lip. I took responsibility because I wanted to, because I knew what I did was wrong, and that it would only be worse to waste tens of thousands of tax dollars on a trial when I knew I was guilty, even if I was found not guilty.
> 
> As for SeR, I'm sure thats what brihard meant, and I'm not arguing with him, but this seems to be becoming more about people ranting on the seriousness of drunk driving or why they think I haven't learned my lesson. Unless you're the one deciding if I'm in or out, none of that really matters. That's why I made the comment you referred to. My honest answer to the latter part of your post is that is judge neither solely based on their grades, or their criminal record, but more on their character. Someone who's had had to learn the hard way knows better than someone else who never has, and really, there's less reoffenders for what I did than there are first timers...thus, the young (say my age, 22) man/woman you described in comparison to me is statistically more likely to drink and drive than I am...just something to keep in mind. And before you lose it, yes, I get that having a record period shows you can make bad choices, I'm just saying everyone CAN and does make bad choices, not everyone gets caught, and an even smaller amount take responsibility when they do.



You're minimizing things by saying "I got caught where others didn't".  You can't use that as a defense for something that was wrong.  So I don't hear anyone who was caught robbing a bank or comitting a more henious crime saying..........


			
				pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Again not to take away from the seriousness of what I did, but this is also a crime that many people have comitted and not been caught for. I got caught, and I took responsibility for it in court.



I can honestly say, that should you ever get called by the CF for an interview or any other employer for that fact, you will be ask the question.  And if you respond by saying *"not to take away from the seriousness of what I did, but this is also a crime that many people have comitted and not been caught for"*

Did you also know, that you may very well not be "admissable" for entry into the US or any other foreign country and that you may also not be "bondable" for civilian employment where such a requirement exists.

After being caught and taking responsibility is neither here nor there.

If you want to apply to the CF, go right ahead, it's your right.  Nobody here on this forum is going to be able to accurately judge and or assess your credentials for acceptance.


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## brihard (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Someone who's had had to learn the hard way knows better than someone else who never has, and really, there's less reoffenders for what I did than there are first timers...thus, the young (say my age, 22) man/woman you described in comparison to me is statistically more likely to drink and drive than I am...just something to keep in mind.



 :facepalm:

No. See, most of us are simply smart enough from the outset not to commit criminal offences like that. Nobody's impressed that you've 'learned the hard way', because most people are never dumb enough to need to. That scores you zero points at all.

Take that rationalization and try to apply it to negligent homicide, fraud, or sexual assault. Would it impress you at all? I hope not.

You came into this thread wanting to know how your standing against other meritorious candidates will be in light of your criminal record: Nice simple answer for you; not good. As I said, have other plans ready to carry you through the next several years when this doesn't pan out for you.


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## TYLERgibson (3 Apr 2013)

You made the choices to be a fuckup and now you're dealing with it. It doesn't matter if you only got cuaght and charged when others don't. Simply put, you fucked up, deal with it and move on.


----------



## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

Anyway, just for the person who down the road searches the same phrase I did and finds this, or for the rest of you with old information, "pardons" don't exist anymore. One can now obtain a "record suspension," which is effectively the same thing, though there are some important differences.

And, for a laugh, who in this thread has NEVER committed a crime or done something that could have led to being charged (ie speeding, public intoxication, opening a drink in a store even if you paid for it after, "sampling" grapes, etc)? Let's be honest men now, nobody is a saint, lol...many things you've done in your life could have landed any number of you in my shoes, and many of those same offences are looked upon as on par with what I did in the law books. Don't believe me? See for yourself,dont take it from me, look it up. Jaywalking could land you in prison if someone a swerves to avoid you and kills someone doing it. Let me guess, were gonna crucify jaywalkers now?

Well, we clearly understand each other, no sense talking in circles...

 I get your points, hopefully you get mine. You'd actually be surprised how many employers overlook DUI being on your record, including the ministry of community safety and correctional services here in Ontario. Not saying they're right or wrong for it, just saying in general.

Though it clearly isn't the best news, I appreciate you guys responding and regardless of what the first recruiter says, I'm never going to give up on this. Any further experiences or information anyone has would still be greatly appreciated


----------



## brihard (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> And, for a laugh, who in this thread has NEVER committed a crime or done something that could have led to being charged (ie speeding, public intoxication, opening a drink in a store even if you paid for it after, "sampling" grapes, etc)? Let's be honest men now, nobody is a saint, lol...many things you've done in your life could have landed any number of you in my shoes, and many of those same offences are looked upon as on par with what I did in the law books. Don't believe me? See for yourself,dont take it from me, look it up. Jaywalking could land you in prison if someone a swerves to avoid you and kills someone doing it. Let me guess, were gonna crucify jaywalkers now?t well, we clearly understand each other, no sense talking in circles.



All the deflection and obfuscation in the world doesn't change the fact that you were convicted of drunk driving, a criminal offense, and that you continue to try to minimize and negate the significance and severity of what you did. You're simply digging yourself deeper and bringing further contempt and scorn down upon yourself.

It's an old axiom of military strategy to never reinforce failure...


----------



## SeR (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> And, for a laugh, who in this thread has NEVER committed a crime or done something that could have led to being charged (ie speeding, public intoxication, opening a drink in a store even if you paid for it after, "sampling" grapes, etc)? Let's be honest men now, nobody is a saint, lol...many things you've done in your life could have landed any number of you in my shoes, and many of those same offences are looked upon as on par with what I did in the law books. Don't believe me? See for yourself,dont take it from me, look it up. Jaywalking could land you in prison if someone a swerves to avoid you and kills someone doing it. Let me guess, were gonna crucify jaywalkers now?



Now you're just being stubborn and trying to convince yourself that your crime is insignificant. There's quite a difference between speeding and driving under the influence. If there wasn't, the consequences would be the same.

For the record, speeding isn't even a criminal offense (unless your 50 km/h over the limit). *Drunk driving is.*


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## JesseWZ (3 Apr 2013)

Hi POINTFIVEOH

I'm an MP, Military Police Cpl at a fairly large and busy base. I've attended numerous calls for DUIs, public intoxication (which in the CF is a chargeble offense), domestic violence involving alcohol and others. In fact, I think if you take away the mundane calls (building insecurities, lost Military ID) more than 60% of my files involve alcohol. 

If you can't figure out why no one around here seems to take a liking to you, it's because the CF is a small community. The PMQs (if you ever live in them) are usually a smaller community still. No one likes you because you are the guy that can't take responsibility for his actions, and no one wants you to hit their kids, spouses or parents. 

Most impaired drivers we stop have been charged, or stopped at the very least numerous times. Almost never is it a persons first time driving impaired, and very rarely it is their last. 



And for anyone else who is curious:

Probation, statuatory release, community service, and parole are *a part of your sentence.* They are *all* considered a judicial obligation.


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## TYLERgibson (3 Apr 2013)

So if someone you knew got killed by a drunk driver its not so bad. Come on now. Driving drunk is 100% on you. No one else. And the fact that you think its ok and that you should even be looked at over someone without a dd charge makes me sick


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## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

Sigh...I'm giving up on this thread lol thanks for your removal of my mp points and your commentary everyone. Whenever I do makeit into the forces, iI'd like to meet you in person soyou can all tell me the same thing over and over again without considering my point. There's no minimization, deflection, or whatever you wish to call it in what I'm saying. What I did was wrong, no doubt about it, if you want to pretend to be saints that's all you. I know how I feel about what happened, I know I could've left a 3 year olds brain splattered across the pavement or had their mothers head smoking in my radiator. Me knowing that doesn't change that it was wrong, just like you thinking I'm minimizing doesn't change the fact I'm not. If anyone has any actual advice for me or can share an experience of theirs or a friends, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks gentlemen, and please, keep your judgements about me to yourself. Kudos to brihard and duncam for the only useful info in here, even though the former seems not to like me very much LOL


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## SeR (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Whenever I do makeit into the forces _*If*_ I make it into the forces.


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## TYLERgibson (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Sigh...I'm giving up on this thread lol thanks for your removal of my mp points and your commentary everyone. Whenever I do makeit into the forces, iI'd like to meet you in person soyou can all tell me the same thing over and over again without considering my point. There's no minimization, deflection, or whatever you wish to call it in what I'm saying. What I did was wrong, no doubt about it, if you want to pretend to be saints that's all you. I know how I feel about what happened, I know I could've left a 3 year olds brain splattered across the pavement or had their mothers head smoking in my radiator. Me knowing that doesn't change that it was wrong, just like you thinking I'm minimizing doesn't change the fact I'm not. If anyone has any actual advice for me or can share an experience of theirs or a friends, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks gentlemen, and please, keep your judgements about me to yourself. Kudos to brihard and duncam for the only useful info in here, even though the former seems not to like me very much LOL



If you can't take a little heat on here because you made fucked up decisions you're going to have a hell of a time when you get to cflrs. Goodluck.


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## brihard (3 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Sigh...I'm giving up on this thread lol thanks for your removal of my mp points and your commentary everyone. Whenever I do makeit into the forces, iI'd like to meet you in person soyou can all tell me the same thing over and over again without considering my point. There's no minimization, deflection, or whatever you wish to call it in what I'm saying. What I did was wrong, no doubt about it, if you want to pretend to be saints that's all you. I know how I feel about what happened, I know I could've left a 3 year olds brain splattered across the pavement or had their mothers head smoking in my radiator. Me knowing that doesn't change that it was wrong, just like you thinking I'm minimizing doesn't change the fact I'm not. If anyone has any actual advice for me or can share an experience of theirs or a friends, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks gentlemen, and please, keep your judgements about me to yourself. Kudos to brihard and duncam for the only useful info in here, even though the former seems not to like me very much LOL



Please do not mistake me for disliking you; I don't. I have too little to work off of to determine whether you're personally likeable or not, and besides that it's irrelevant. It's simply my opinion as a soldier and a leader that you are not fit to be an officer in the Canadian Forces because at this stage in your life you serve a poor example and do not reflect our professional values and ethos, and I would not be comfortable seeing my soldiers under your command nor being there myself. My viewpoint on this is strictly a professional one, not a personal one, and I would be perfectly willing to say it to your face if you insisted on that in order to take my words seriously.

Despite the very broad and varied membership here, I think very few of us will be able to relate any experiences, either personal or from friends, of people who have been admitted to ROTP and commissioned as officers coming off of recent criminal convictions for DUI. You can draw your own conclusions as to why that may be the case.


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## pointfiveoh (3 Apr 2013)

Well, what kind of officer would I make if I gave up early because a bunch of guys on the internet told me I don't stand a good chance? 5 months, 5 years, either way, I will see you guys in the forces one day, and like it or not, should some of you be NCMs when I'm done all the pre-req schooling, you might just end up working for me  ;D


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## garb811 (4 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh:

Rather than the circular argument you keep making, have a read of how serious the CAF treats Alcohol Misconduct and the consequences it has for serving members.  Then stop and think for a second about why it is you, who have done the exact same thing, should be enrolled into the CAF when you have already proven your inability to use alcohol responsibly.

DAOD 5019-7, Alcohol Misconduct


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## TYLERgibson (4 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> Well, what kind of officer would I make if I gave up early because a bunch of guys on the internet told me I don't stand a good chance? 5 months, 5 years, either way, I will see you guys in the forces one day, and like it or not, should some of you be NCMs when I'm done all the pre-req schooling, you might just end up working for me  ;D



We don't work for you. We serve under you. I advise that you EARN the respect of those under you. We may follow your orders, but what we ncms do, reflects how you look. And you can bet your ass that we won't help you if you think you're better then us.


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

garb811 said:
			
		

> pointfiveoh:
> 
> Rather than the circular argument you keep making, have a read of how serious the CAF treats Alcohol Misconduct and the consequences it has for serving members.  Then stop and think for a second about why it is you, who have done the exact same thing, should be enrolled into the CAF when you have already proven your inability to use alcohol responsibly.
> 
> DAOD 5019-7, Alcohol Misconduct




See, now that's some useful information. Thanks man.

And artyman, I hope to some day have a team of dedicated soldiers to work with. Men and women who do what they do becsuse they want to do it, not becase their officer is a nice and respectable guy. I'd most certainly hope to earn their respect as opposed to demanding it, but if I do find someone like yourself associated with me in our duties, Ill have no issue demanding it. I do wish that wouldn't be the case, though. Oh, and if I thought I was better than you at any point, I can safely assure you it has nothing to do with what rank you hold in the military. My apologies about using the incorrect wording.


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## brihard (4 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> I'd most certainly hope to earn their respect as opposed to demanding it, but if I do find someone like yourself associated with me in our duties, Ill have no issue demanding it.



You woefully misunderstand the difference between 'respect', and 'the lawful authority that a superior exerts over their followers by virtue of rank or appointment'. Respect can be demanded until one is blue in the face, but can only be given consensually. It differs from obedience or politeness in that regard. You should also recognize that a junior officer's future is determined by many factors, and that there is a quiet but real role played by the senior NCOs appointed directly below them. I would dismiss immediately the notion that you will ever be able to 'demand respect', because we have all seen it before, it's blatantly transparent when it's happening, and it doesn't work. Respect is either earned or it is not.


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

Which is exactly why I included the rest of my post in my post. Demanded respect is never "respect," just the feigning of it. That being said, everyone can be an ***hole. I much prefer the other, easier way.


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## George Wallace (4 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> ............ I'd most certainly hope to earn their respect as opposed to demanding it, but if I do find someone like yourself associated with me in our duties, Ill have no issue demanding it.



Sorry.  With all the self-centered, self-importance, superior attitude displayed in you your posts so far in this thread, the above highlighted part of your post demonstrated to me that I personally would not wish to see you as an officer in any position within the Canadian military.  I personally would have little to do with you in any capacity, military or civilian.  To put it bluntly; your attitude sucks.  One can not demand respect.


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

You guys ever heard of "constructive criticism?" If a thousand of you show up to this thread and speak on the subject of my attitude, my past decisions in life, whether or not I learned my lesson, or whether or not I understand a 2000 some-odd pound car can kill someone, I'm still not going to give up on this.I asked for advice, not your opinion of me. If you'd like to suggest how I should better my attitude or how I should go about improving my chances, I'm all ears, but I'm not gonna argue in circles with you guys. Remember that you who are in the forces have benefitted from being there, you are the angels you are partially because of your military training and experience, I haven't got that benefit yet, I'm here because I don't know jack s*** about this, from attitude to Zulu.

Reading over some of my posts, I can see why some of you have developed early bad opinions of me. I'd like to apologize for many of those posts as I simply let myself get annoyed with you guys about your comments (more so the ones about me as a person, or the DUI criticisms, and those of you who think I'm stupid enough to not know what I did was wrong). I'm not some self centered prick, and the last thing I want to be is that officer yelling at everyone that I'm sure nobody would miss if there were an "accidental explosion." 

Anyway, please continue to share advice, information and experiences with us as I know I won't be then last to search this topic.


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## PuckChaser (4 Apr 2013)

You got advice a page and a half ago. Your conviction will effect your application in a negative way until such time that you apply for and receive a pardon. You also cannot apply to the CAF if you have a current judicial obligation.

So sorry that you don't like hearing that you screwed up, but you put yourself out there. If you really want to be in the CAF, learn to deal with being told directly when you've screwed something up.


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## George Wallace (4 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> You guys ever heard of "constructive criticism?"



 :

I guess everything so far has flown miles over your head.  If you haven't picked up on any of the points yet, we really don't see much hope of your ever applying successfully to become a member of the Canadian Armed Forces, let alone an officer. 

Perhaps it is best if you suck back and read more and post less.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Apr 2013)

If you get into the CF as say, an Armoured Officer and become a Lieutenant, are put into a Troop Leader slot, please come back after you "demand" the respect of the Tp WO, the Sergeant-Major, and the RSM and let us know how that worked out for you.   :nod:

I don't know about others, but this thread made me think of this training video.    ;D


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

Alright, that's fair. That being said, I got the point it will affect my application pages ago, and even to some degree before I made this thread lol what I'm asking for is anyone else's experience with applying to the cf with a record, possibly for a criminal driving offence, and, even if they were initially denied, how they eventually got in. Be it a pardon, volunteering, whatever they did...I've only really got info from two people on their direct experience. Anyone elses information on the question is great too.


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## mariomike (4 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> <snip> what I'm asking for is anyone else's experience with applying to the cf with a record, <snip>



Some here.

Recruiting > "Criminal Record (merged)": 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12896.0.html


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Some here.
> 
> Recruiting > "Criminal Record (merged)":
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12896.0.html



Awesome, that's perfect, thanks.


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## SentryMAn (4 Apr 2013)

you must have missed my post, I have been convicted of and did the whole deal the DUI thing in 1999, was enrolled into the forces in 2009.  I received a pardon in 2009 for my stupidity.

The difference with what you will experience in the CF with your current attitude is people under you will do exactly what you ask, no more no less.  They do only what is ordered and will never stick their neck out to save yours period.

I would love to see how many days of Base Duty you would receive for thinking you out rank the RSM or the CWO of your unit....lol

Finally my last bit of advice:
Shut the fuck up and listen to what's going on around you, if you are 22 understand this, You DO NOT NOW SHIT ABOUT SHIT, if you think you do, you don't. 
To improve you application, expect to spend 5 years getting into the forces, get a Pardon for your crime and DO NOT RE-OFFEND in any way.
Start volunteering, hold a job that you can advance in, build some good things on your resume.  Maybe start doing adventure type races, keep building your physical side, etc.

Basically anything you do that can be seen as a positive and placed on your resume will look good to the CF.

But you are definitely not currently ready for CF life, you'd VR in a mater of week.  you need to learn how to be humble and take advice, learn when to shut up and learn when to talk.

Lastly:
Remember as a Ocdt you are BELOW a recruit on the "rank" scale, as a 2Lt you will be slightly higher but still very low on the scale.


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

Well, I cant argue with that. Thanks for the advice.


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## Jammer (4 Apr 2013)

...so there you have it P5O. Overwhelming opinions that confirm the following:

1. You were arrested and charged for DUI, check...Yeah yeah not convicted...yet.

2. You have no sense of remorse for your transgression, check.

3. You are some misguided impression that the Canadian Armed Forces is passing up a golden opportunity not to enroll you, check.

4. You think that leadership is your right and others with far more experience and age must bend over and bow to your superior ways, check.

5. See points 3 and 4 again, check.

6. Your overall attitude is one of a sense of entitlement, check.

7. In the short time you have been on this site you have managed to set a zero null impression of yourself, check. (Well done by the way, you may have a record there.)

How do you rectify your shortcomings...(get used to that comment if you ever make it to phase trg). 

1.Simple: Stay on receive instead of transmit


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## mariomike (4 Apr 2013)

Jammer said:
			
		

> You were arrested and charged for DUI, check...Yeah yeah not convicted...yet.





			
				pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> <snip> it was a conviction I recieved and not a conditional discharge.


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## Jammer (4 Apr 2013)

2, Accept your failures

3. You are entitled to nothing...you earn it.

4. Never piss on the people you meet on the way up...they'll remember you on your way down.

5. Respect for others...personal and professional

6. There is no shortcut

7. Life is hard enough, don't complicate it.

All of these pointers are applicable to...well...life. Master these and then you may have a shot at a career in the military.

That will be five cents please.

J.


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

You get more bees with honey than vinegar, I'd have paid you ten cents if you followed some of your own advice. 

 :2c: :2c:

No one cent on here either, so, looks like you're only getting 4 cents now


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## Jammer (4 Apr 2013)

..soooo from two posts you now know me well enough to judge.

See, that's the kind of attitude that makes you come off like a bag of feminine sanitary product.


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## pointfiveoh (4 Apr 2013)

Jammer said:
			
		

> ..soooo from two posts you now know me well enough to judge.
> 
> See, that's the kind of attitude that makes you come off like a bag of feminine sanitary product.



And that's coming from someone doing the judging themselves though, that's my point, lol. I was ****ing around anyway...  :


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## brihard (4 Apr 2013)

Alrighty. I'm gonna lock this bad boy up for about a day and let things chill out a bit. If anyone has anything they feel genuinely contributes to the topic that they want to add, shoot me a PM and I'll unlock it.

milnet.ca admin


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## pointfiveoh (9 Apr 2013)

So I've read every DUI thread on here, as well as the criminal record thread, and have come to the conclusion from that information and from what I've heard from the knowledgeable members in this thread that the following information is useful and relative to this topic:

1) Your application is reviewed on a variety of factors. It seems the statement "a criminal record does not disqualify you" is true, however, it certainly makes you look bad.

2) If you're forced to wait (as it seems I am) until the end of your "judicial obligations," it would be a wise choice to volunteer somewhere, potentially somewhere related to the care of victims of your offence, and beef up the remainder of your resume.

3) You'll need references, even if you are accepted, it's likely those responsible for accepting you will want to hear from some other people that you're not a career criminal and that you've made improvements since your mistake.

4) If you don't have one already, get a full-time job. It seems CF interviews are like most other job interviews, and having recent work experience is likely a bonus. If you can, get a job in a field relative to what you're interested in doing in the army. 

5) Furthering your existing education with training courses or college courses could also be useful in showing dedication and maturity. Again, if you can take a course that's related to your military interests it's an obvious plus.

Basically, if you and four other applicants are being reviewed for acceptance, they're going to balance the various factors. You may have a record, you may also be qualified in ways other applicants aren't, you may be the most fit applicant, you may be the most educated, or with the most experience or best references. Your best bet is to a) do things that show you've both learned from, and matured since, your given run-in with the law b) ensure that, as an applicant, you make your resume competitive c) be ready to convince someone that you're not a total moron and that you are still worth hiring based on the factors beyond your mistake. If you are unable to make your application stand out for reasons other than the stain on your record, you'll likely need a record suspension (previously a "pardon,") you may need one either way depending on the offence and what impact it has on the position you're applying for (ie dui would hold you back from becoming a medic as you need an unrestricted drivers license. Thus, even though you may get your license back, if there is a condition "I" you will be ineligible for positions that require a full license).

If anyone has anything constructively useful to add please do.Thank you everyone, and I hope future army.ca members/readers find this information, and find it useful!

SOME USEFUL RESOURCES THAT WERE SHARED WITH OR FOUND BY ME:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12896.0.html - Criminal Record (merged), thanks to mariomike
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5019-7-eng.asp - Forces DAOD on Alcohol Misconduct, thanks to garb811 http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/98610.0 - Thread on joining with a DUI
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/107018.0 - Thread on DUI in the Forces

I will add any more information I find and also update with any of my personal experiences as they come along.


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## Hunter (11 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> ...I understand theres a lot of applicants, but it's not like I robbed a bank or molested a kid, and I'm sure many of them wont have the education, experience, physical fitness or whatever their case may be, that I do...



In my line of work I occasionally get to share a very fast, very bumpy ride in the back of an ambulance with someone in the final moments of their life.  Sometimes this is as the result of someone drinking and driving.  I'm pretty sure that those people and their families would agree that while impaired driving is not like molesting kids or robbing banks, sometimes it is a lot like murder. I'm just sayin'.

I sense that you feel you are being unfairly judged by this forum.  Perhaps that is true, perhaps many who have posted here have rushed to judgement without really knowing anything about you.  On the other hand, perhaps the reaction you have received is a bellwether of how people in the CF feel about (a) impaired driving and (b) those who don't take responsibility for their actions.  I have read where you say you take responsibility and accept the consequences and whatnot, but on the other hand you also wrote that it was a bogus charge...you could have got off...lip surgery excuse etc...I infer from these comments that you do not truly take responsibility for your actions.  And as long as this attitude is reflected in what you post on army.ca, I think you can probably expect to receive more of the same.

WRT Brihard not liking you, don't sweat it - he hates everyone.


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## brihard (11 Apr 2013)

Hunter said:
			
		

> WRT Brihard not liking you, don't sweat it - he hates everyone.



That's not true. Just drunk drivers, hippies, left handed people, and above all, lippy medics.


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## pointfiveoh (11 Apr 2013)

Hunter said:
			
		

> But on the other hand you also wrote that it was a bogus charge...you could have got off...lip surgery excuse etc...I infer from these comments that you do not truly take responsibility for your actions.



I'd understand this if I'd actually pursued that defence at a trial, but I never said it was a "bogus charge," and I plead guilty without even mentioning that in court. That was simply something my lawyer suggested. I agree with the rest of your post, and I now understand why everyone judged me and what not...however, day one of being here, I obviously didn't. I'm waiting until October (completion of my probation) to file my application again/send in my documents/whatever CFRC tells me to do in any case, so I'll have plenty of time to redeem myself in the eyes of the community, and follow everyone's advice, by that time.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Apr 2013)

pointfiveoh said:
			
		

> I'd understand this if I'd actually pursued that defence at a trial, but I never said it was a "bogus charge," and I plead guilty without even mentioning that in court. That was simply something my lawyer suggested. I agree with the rest of your post, and I now understand why everyone judged me and what not...however, day one of being here, I obviously didn't. I'm waiting until October (completion of my probation) to file my application again/send in my documents/whatever CFRC tells me to do in any case, so I'll have plenty of time to redeem myself in the eyes of the community, and follow everyone's advice, by that time.



For the love of all things holy, please stop bailing a leaky boat and just let this one drop.  You got off to a bad start here and it quickly got worse, not all entirely your fault, I may add.  You aren't going to change anyone's opinion, and, clearly, they aren't going to change yours.  Do your penance, eat the allotted shit sandwich, then put in your application and spin the wheel, just like everyone else. FWIW, a lot of the people in here served at a time when a DWI and a year of being squeaky clean was almost a prerequisite for promotion.


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## haganator91 (17 Sep 2017)

Hi everyone. About 2 years ago I was pulled over and had no insurance and blew over. I have paid off the fines and stuff for the DUI, but have not paid the no insurance fine. I dont think no insurance is a criminal offense so would this keep me from trying to apply? Ive read that you must be free of court obligations and i have no probabtion or anything like that, and have paid the criminal DUI fine. My license i have not got back. Any help is greatly appreciated. 
Thanks


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## mariomike (17 Sep 2017)

haganator91 said:
			
		

> but have not paid the no insurance fine.



See,

Applying & worried about a traffic or speeding ticket? (merged)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/35022.75
5 pages.
Unpaid fines are discussed here.



			
				haganator91 said:
			
		

> have paid the criminal DUI fine.



Licence suspensions and unpaid fines as a result of a DUI are discussed here,

Joining Canadian Forces with Pending DUI  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/98610.0
3 pages.

Unpaid fines are also discussed here,

Security Check/Level Superthread [MERGED] 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/1399.0

DUI convictions are discussed here,

Criminal Records Check - CRC (Merged) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/12896.200



			
				haganator91 said:
			
		

> My license i have not got back.



Licence required, or not required,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+licence+required&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+licence+required&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0.0.94398.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.Qw9Z8gAIFPo

There are other discussions regarding applicants with DUI's, licence suspensions, and unpaid fines.

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of up to date information.


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## PuckChaser (17 Sep 2017)

haganator91 said:
			
		

> Hi everyone. About 2 years ago I was pulled over and had no insurance and blew over. I have paid off the fines and stuff for the DUI, but have not paid the no insurance fine. I dont think no insurance is a criminal offense so would this keep me from trying to apply? Ive read that you must be free of court obligations and i have no probabtion or anything like that, and have paid the criminal DUI fine. My license i have not got back. Any help is greatly appreciated.
> Thanks



What province are you in? That's going to change how its viewed. A quick Google:

http://pointts.com/traffic-ticket-questions/


> What happens if I ignore my ticket?
> 
> If no response to the ticket has been received by the court indicated on the reverse of the offence notice within 15 days after it was served on the person charged, the person is deemed not to dispute the charge. If the ticket is complete and proper on its face, then a justice of the peace shall enter a conviction in the defendant’s absence and impose the set fine for the offence.
> 
> ...



If your fine is in collections, the CAF is going to want you to have a payment plan when they do the background and credit check. So its not necessarily that's its a criminal conviction or not, its that you have a large, outstanding fine in collections that you've decided to ignore. You screwed up, pay the fine if able and move on with your life. If you can't, be prepared to be told you cannot join until you sort it out.

Credit check info here: https://army.ca/forums/threads/13319.425.html


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## haganator91 (20 Sep 2017)

Im in Ontario. Having a record has screwed me out of many good job opportunities.  My license is suspended until i can pay the fines. I  have no money to pay fines. I just want a clean slate in life. Thanks for the help guys i appreciate it


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## mariomike (20 Sep 2017)

haganator91 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help guys i appreciate it



You are welcome. Good luck.


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## Armywannabe70 (22 Jan 2018)

Just reviewing the forums because I had a complication while waiting for my date of employment.  

I had my license suspended for speeding ...suspension showed up in the mail 4 months after my ticket was paid for and forgotten about and thought it was behind me..because I am a new driver they were able to asses my ticket and decided to suspend my license for 4 months ( I have had no other infractions and because I do not have an employer they can't fill out the paperwork to reinstate my license for reasons of employment)....suspension began 1 week before I was to leave for boot camp...I spoke to the recruiter and he advised me that I had to wait for the suspension to be lifted to be employed by the army.  

I looked through the Careers online and the Career I had the job offer for Communications Researcher doesn't list needing a license, just wondering if I should look at other Career options, or if I am still on the Merit List.   Looking for help and advice on securing employment with the armed forces, I live in a small community and its been tough to find work because everyone knows for the past 8 months that I was leaving for the army.


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## Ironheader (22 Jan 2018)

Contact your recruiting centre.

There could be other factors involved with this, like if you were charged criminally. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Armywannabe70 (22 Jan 2018)

Thanks for your quick reply, I do not have a criminal record , I reviewed that with MPI....I have talked to my recruiter and shared all the paperwork from MPI and when my suspension will be lifted and I will have a full license again.  It could be that I just have to wait. 

Just wondered if I have to start from square one and if this bumped me off the Merit List or if there are other career options open to me while my license is supsended.  I may email my recruiter with some more specific questions.


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## Ironheader (22 Jan 2018)

Armywannabe70 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your quick reply, I do not have a criminal record , I reviewed that with MPI....I have talked to my recruiter and shared all the paperwork from MPI and when my suspension will be lifted and I will have a full license again.  It could be that I just have to wait.
> 
> Just wondered if I have to start from square one and if this bumped me off the Merit List or if there are other career options open to me while my license is supsended.  I may email my recruiter with some more specific questions.


I'm kind of curious if it will have any effect since a drivers license is not required. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PuckChaser (22 Jan 2018)

Armywannabe70 said:
			
		

> Thanks for your quick reply, I do not have a criminal record , I reviewed that with MPI....I have talked to my recruiter and shared all the paperwork from MPI and when my suspension will be lifted and I will have a full license again.  It could be that I just have to wait.
> 
> Just wondered if I have to start from square one and if this bumped me off the Merit List or if there are other career options open to me while my license is supsended.  I may email my recruiter with some more specific questions.



You have probably answered your own question, you need to talk to a recruiter.

Despite not requiring a driver's license for the job, I'm willing to bet the hold up here is an outstanding commitment to the legal system (suspended license).

Just so I'm tracking properly, you had your license suspended 1 week before BMQ and were therefore removed from training? Were you not already sworn in and on LWOP awaiting your course? There's some timeline things that don't add up here.


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## Armywannabe70 (22 Jan 2018)

I was not sworn in, that was to happen a few days before I left for Boot Camp I was not on LWOP, there was only going to be one or two days that I would have been on LWOP.  

I know I have to serve the suspension,  just looking to see if I need to start from square one when the suspension is up and reapply all over for that Career when I have a full license reinstated..or if I would still be on the Merit List..not entirely sure what the Merit list is..just trying to figure it out from reading amongst the forums.  

thanks for answering my questions


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## mariomike (22 Jan 2018)

Armywannabe70 said:
			
		

> ..not entirely sure what the Merit list is..



Competition List Questions (formally called Merit List) [MERGED]
https://army.ca/forums/threads/12776.100
12 pages


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## brihard (22 Jan 2018)

Curious. A driver’s license suspension issued by a provincial ministry as a result of infractions and demerit points/license class is NOT a court action. A court ordered suspension as a sentence is different. I would confirm if the suspension was issued by the ministry for remedial purposes. I suspect it was based on what you’re saying- I charged a guy for driving suspended just a week ago who lost his license by decision of the ministry due to accrued demerit points. It wasn’t a court ordered suspension, it was entirely ministry of transportation.


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## Armywannabe70 (22 Jan 2018)

Thanks Brihard for that insight...so do you think that there is a distinction then between which Ministry has made the decision on my license suspension?  I will have to look over my paperwork again to see.  

Thanks these forums are very helpful trying to sort things out


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## Armywannabe70 (22 Jan 2018)

I had a closer look at the paperwork I was sent from MPI, Registrar of Motor Vehicles is the listed.  So this isn't a Court Action.


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## Pusser (23 Jan 2018)

I'm wondering if the Recruiting Centre may have made a mistake.  A suspension is not a sentence and there is no "obligation" to the court.


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Jan 2018)

Or, even if having a driver's license is not a requirement to enrol as COMM RSCH, it may be one of their tasks and having a license suspension would preclude putting him on drivers training.  Though it is not the trade specs (don't have access), this is included in the task statement for COMM RSCH medical standards.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/mosid120-communicator-research.page


> 13. Drive military vehicles in low/no light conditions.


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