# Baby Boomers vs Millenials



## Altair (29 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If you can't afford to have children, don't have them.


I have no dog in that fight,  but I think the problem here is people are not having kids because they can't afford them. 

The birth rate drops as a result,  which leads to having to bring in more immigrants,  which ironically,  pisses off the same people who don't like free daycare.


.*** DS: Split topic and edit topic  ***


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## mariomike (29 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> The birth rate drops as a result,  which leads to having to bring in more immigrants,  < snip >



For reference,

QUOTE

Feb 8, 2017 

Low fertility rates mean Canadian growth relies on immigration
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/low-fertility-rates-mean-canadian-growth-relies-on-immigration/
1971 was the last year when the average number of children matched the 2.1 replacement level needed for the population to renew itself, without being bolstered by immigration.

Without a sustained level of immigration, it says Canada’s growth rate could be close to zero in 20 years as the population ages and projected fertility rates lag replacement level.

END QUOTE


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## Jarnhamar (30 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> I have no dog in that fight,  but I think the problem here is people are not having kids because they can't afford them.
> 
> The birth rate drops as a result,  which leads to having to bring in more immigrants,  which ironically,  pisses off the same people who don't like free daycare.



We have 36 million people. We can afford to be in the negatives for a while.


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## Altair (30 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We have 36 million people. We can afford to be in the negatives for a while.


which leads to a shift in demographics,  more older people who don't work,  and less working age young people paying taxes to support them.

Also a massive drag on economic growth. Most economists agree that keeping the country at replace rate is ideal,  and if one is to follow said doctrine,  there are only two ways to do it. 

Make is easier and more affordable for young people to have and raise kids(I,  personally,  will only have one)  or invite in more immigrants. I'm fine with either,  but in order to keep things running smoothly,  the government needs to choose at least one. 

Otherwise you end up like Japan. For the record,  Japan is not happy about the shrinking population,  but they are not one for mass immigration either and as such are facing a massive demographic crunch. 

http://nationalpost.com/news/world/a-place-for-the-state-in-the-bedrooms-of-the-nation-how-japan-is-tackling-its-plummeting-population-problem



> Within a decade, scholars predict, one third of Japanese people will be 65 or older. By 2035, half will be single. By 2040, half of Japan’s municipalities could die out, with one in three houses abandoned. The current population of 127 million will dip below 100 million before 2050.
> 
> The trend can be mitigated though not fully reversed. Rather than upend a strict immigration system, Japan’s government is focused on raising the birth rate.





> The birth rate of 1.44 can’t sustain the population. A June 2016 “Plan for Dynamic Engagement of All Citizens” seeks to raise it to 1.8 and maintain a population of 100 million. To address a growing labour shortage, it seeks better work-life balance for women and more employment for seniors. A new set of reforms will cost the Canadian equivalent of $33.3 billion, facilitated by a tax increase starting next year.


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## McG (30 Mar 2018)

For those who are unhappy with conservatives and liberals moving to be right and left wing parties as opposed to right-of-centre and last-of-centre, I invite you to have a look at some of the other parties registered in Ontario:
https://www.elections.on.ca/en/political-entities-in-ontario/political-parties/registered-political-parties-in-ontario.html

Visit their webpages to see their platforms; some parties will not be what your biases would cause you to guess from reading the party name and in other cases ... well, the commies are commies and the enviro-vegans are crazy, as you would guess.

If you find a party that offers a platform preferable to the current state of the big 3, then find out who your local candidate will be.  And if there is no local candidate (and you are not currently RegF), maybe consider offering to run under their banner.


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## Remius (30 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We have 36 million people. We can afford to be in the negatives for a while.




If most were under the age of 30 sure. But we have an aging population.  Demographics isn’t just about one number.  If most of your population is old or will be old soon you can’t afford to be in the negatives for any length of time.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> which leads to a shift in demographics,  more older people who don't work,  and less working age young people paying taxes to support them.
> 
> Also a massive drag on economic growth. Most economists agree that keeping the country at replace rate is ideal,  and if one is to follow said doctrine,  there are only two ways to do it.



I though I recall reading 'old people' were the most wealthy demographic in Canada now. Incorrect?

But if we're talking about having less young people working to be able to support old people who don't, does that mean we should look at limiting our social assistance programs to be less attractive (and perhaps available), to already citizens, immigrants and especially refugees?

By my logic bringing in a family of 6 and them not finding employment and just receiving welfare for the next 5,10,15 years wouldn't really be giving back to the economy?


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## Altair (30 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I though I recall reading 'old people' were the most wealthy demographic in Canada now. Incorrect?
> 
> But if we're talking about having less young people working to be able to support old people who don't, does that mean we should look at limiting our social assistance programs to be less attractive (and perhaps available), to already citizens, immigrants and especially refugees?
> 
> By my logic bringing in a family of 6 and them not finding employment and just receiving welfare for the next 5,10,15 years wouldn't really be giving back to the economy?


which is better for the country you think, having 6 kids,  maybe one doesn't find work,  or having one kid and companies unable to expand due to lack of available labour? 

The latter kills economic growth and as a double whammy,  the older cohort gets more expensive the more of them stop working. Our health care system alone could near bankrupt the nation if we keep  providing the current level of care with less people available to pay for it. 

So its either babies or it's immigrants. anything else and everyone is going to pay for it. Older Canadians will suffer from reduced services and benefits,  younger Canadians will get taxed like never before to help keep those older Canadians alive. 

So instead of recceguy saying don't have kids if you can't afford it,  it may be don't get old unless you can afford it.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> There is one inefficiency Doug Ford could save billions on, by shutting down the HRC.



And I'd pay money to be the guy that gets to roughly escort them out the door.  Like I told them when I was getting hauled in front of them, 'You people only exist to find evil, even if it isn't there, just to justify your jobs".  Fortunately I could prove 100% that the things I supposedly did could not have happened, as I had switched shifts for months and months, to never be in the building at the same time as the harasser.   What did I get?  "based on the balance of probabilities these events did not occur".........and then I really lost my mind.


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## Altair (30 Mar 2018)

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-liberal-budget-appears-to-work-new-poll-shows-pcs-unable-to-capture-majority



> The Ontario Liberals’ new spendthrift budget appears to have worked. According to a new poll from Forum Research, the party has closed the lead of the Progressive Conservatives.
> 
> The Liberals now have 29 per cent support to the Tories’ 36. According to Forum projections, if an election were held tomorrow, Doug Ford would not be able to win enough seats for a majority.





> The rise in Liberal fortunes appears to be due in part to the party sapping support from the NDP. Thursday’s poll showed that the popularity of the party of Andrea Horwath had diminished slightly to 26 per cent.





> Although the party experienced a brief spike after the departure of Brown, their fortunes appear to have fallen with the selection of Doug Ford as leader.


 So it begins. 

Liberals up. 

NDP down. 

PCs down.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (30 Mar 2018)

Our healthcare costs (electives like knee replacements and palliative care) will bankrupt us regardless of economic growth in coming years.  

If it were me:

1.  Doctor assisted suicide needs to be approved asap (after seeing my grandmother post-stroke, that's actually as much a moral view as an economic view).  Not to mention seeing the palliative bill for her after in essence she was "gone" was eye-opening.  This was 10 years ago and my recollection was it was $390k. 

2.  Electives like quality of life knee and hip replacements so seniors can continue to play golf and tennis needs to be subject to a means test and if you deductable would increase as your net wealth increases)

There are a lot more, but that's a start.....


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## Bird_Gunner45 (30 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-liberal-budget-appears-to-work-new-poll-shows-pcs-unable-to-capture-majority
> 
> 
> So it begins.
> ...



The Liberal strategy is the past 10 years has been exactly this- out left the NDP to take votes from them and wait for the Conservatives to score own goals and push moderate/fiscal conservatives and more NDP/green voters into the Liberal camp. Possibly unfortunately for the Ontario PC party Doug Ford has lots of time to score own goals. There hope is that he can stay out of anything controversial and not push more NDP voters to vote Liberal to keep social conservative issues out of the province. 

The PC need to learn that social conservatism doesn't play in Ontario outside of rural areas and they dont need rural areas to win.


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## PPCLI Guy (30 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> By my logic bringing in a family of 6 and them not finding employment and just receiving welfare for the next 5,10,15 years wouldn't really be giving back to the economy?



It is hard to find directly comparative stats, but those that are available suggest that this may not be a fair characterisation...

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2016375-eng.htm

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2015051-eng.htm

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2222361-10-myths-about-immigration/

And a good counter to the Grubel report....

http://torontonorthlip.ca/sites/torontonorthlip.ca/files/MythsAboutImmigrants-phase1-report-final.pdf


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> which is better for the country you think, having 6 kids,  maybe one doesn't find work,  or having one kid and companies unable to expand due to lack of available labour?
> 
> The latter kills economic growth and as a double whammy,  the older cohort gets more expensive the more of them stop working. Our health care system alone could near bankrupt the nation if we keep  providing the current level of care with less people available to pay for it.
> 
> ...



I'm going to take a guess and say if it weren't for the old cohort, the young cohort would have to start working. Indulge my tin foil and common sense, while I try explain my personal feelings on the subject. It was the older cohort that paid for and supported, with their taxes, those programs and social engineering experiments and government initiatives. It is our money in OAS and CPP. It's our money that Wynne and Trudeau are pissing away. Who is paying for everything right now? Us old cohort are still paying our way, in increase taxes to give away our money to those that won't work. If future generations are going to be paying for our electricity and needs today, that is the governments fault not ours. I've never voted socialist in my life, but young people will, because the government promises to give them our money. Current examples of Wynne and Horvath promises to spend billions and none to the people paying for it. Who the hell is going to pay for that?

Maybe the young cohort wouldn't be so large today if our governments hadn't made us old cohort pay for all these youngsters that won't work and think we owe them something.

The fact that people get old and need taking care of seems to slip the minds of those that the old cohort has supported their whole lives. And I'll be paying for them until I die.

Simple tit for tat. You can't blame the old cohort. It's not, just, the increasing numbers of old people retiring that causing the strain. It's the increasing amount of young people, immigrants legal and illegal, 3rd generation welfare and the tax and give socialist programs that are at fault so far as I'm concerned.

Old people, mostly, have the experience and forethought not to spend more than we earn and I'll be making more in retirement than when I worked. I just need a better way to keep it out of the hands of the communists.

Now, I'm not saying it's all one way or another, but the idea that old people would be a burden, because the young will have to foot our bills is nonsense. It will be burdensome on the young though, because they've already spent the money we gave them to put aside for us.

Hope that makes some sort of sense to some.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (30 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm going to take a guess and say if it weren't for the old cohort, the young cohort would have to start working. Indulge my tin foil and common sense, while I try explain my personal feelings on the subject. It was the older cohort that paid for and supported, with their taxes, those programs and social engineering experiments and government initiatives. It is our money in OAS and CPP. It's our money that Wynne and Trudeau are pissing away. Who is paying for everything right now? Us old cohort are still paying our way, in increase taxes to give away our money to those that won't work. If future generations are going to be paying for our electricity and needs today, that is the governments fault not ours. I've never voted socialist in my life, but young people will, because the government promises to give them our money. Current examples of Wynne and Horvath promises to spend billions and none to the people paying for it. Who the hell is going to pay for that?
> 
> Maybe the young cohort wouldn't be so large today if our governments hadn't made us old cohort pay for all these youngsters that won't work and think we owe them something.
> 
> ...



Actually, in terms of debt and the older generation, the baby-boomer generation was where the welfare state was created. Programs from 1940 on, including the creation of unemployment insurance (1940), Old Age Security (52), Canada Pension Plan (65), and equalization. The prevailing fiscal reasoning was that the high economic growth of the post-war era would continue indefinately, funding the massive increase in spending. As stated in the linked Frasier institute paper, " The role of the state as the provider of core public goods within a liberal market economy had shifted to one of government as a source of redistribution and social investment" (Frasier, 47). 

In terms of pure debt burden, in 1945 Canada had a deficit of $2.123 billion CAD but the end of the war saw expenditures go down, with sales and revenue going up due to the inability of European nations to produce due to war damage and the advantage of foreign debt payments from the war (same as in the US). This led to 6 consecutive surpluses from 1946 to 1951. In spite of this, between 1945 and 1973 Canada's net debt rose from $11.3 to $22.6 billion due to increased social spending. Moreover, in 1955 38.24% of spending was on defence, not including 5.18% of spending being on veterans (!). By 1967 defence accounted for 15.63% and veterans benefits to 3.16%, while health rose from 1.66% to 4.88%, old age security from 7.6% to 12.33%, welfare from .62% to 2.22%, education assistance from .21% to 1.01%, and other welfare and social assistance from 1.81% to 2.98%. Spending was so out of hand that in spite of an economy that grew roughly ~8%/year the government was still generally running deficits to pay for social programs for that generation (baby boomers). This problem was then pushed to the next generations as economic development slowed from 1973-1996. This era saw the massive deficits that have become more commonplace begin to support those social programs listed above and resulted in a $2.2 billion deficit in 1973 to a high of a $39 billion in 1992 (PC). By 1990, Canadian spending was at a level where welfare accounted for 13.6%, old age security 11.02%, health 5.25%, family allowances 5.2, and public debt charges to 26.03% of the total budget. This meant that social spending accounted for 37% of total spending, with social spending and debt accounting for 63.03% of Canada's budget, in a year where millenials would have been anywhere from 5 years of age to not yet born. 

So, it is clear that the baby boomer era did in fact create the debt problem that exists today and in large part has been handed to the new generations to deal with. With the expected massive spending requirements to get the baby boomers through their golden years this present will become more exacerbated as the reality that OAS, which was designed for when people died younger is increasingly stretched due to longer life expediencies. So, your generation did not support the social spending through your taxes, but rather through increased debt which has ballooned the level of debt repayment. The baby boomer generation created a series of social spending programs which were based on unrealistic GDP models and were unwilling to cut them when the model changed in 1973. If the old cohort wants to blame someone for the current debt issue they should look in a mirror. So, in sum, yes, the younger generation CAN blame the older cohort. There was no money "put aside" for them- only massive debt.

While Trudeau (and Wynne provincially) certainly wont improve this, neither did Harper when he racked up massive deficits. 

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/federal-fiscal-history-canada-1867-2017.pdf


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

None of that is relevant. Us Old baby boomers paid our way and we still are. The benefits, and pitfalls, of every facet of society, in the last 75 years was pretty well invented by us. So while the millennials have picked up our debt, the same way we picked up the debt for the war(s) and the debt for the advancement for society to this point. No millennial gave us all the vaccines, no millennial gave us the advances we enjoy today.

So each generation, carries forward the debt of the previous ones. Each generation makes advancements that are a boon to the next. Each generation leaves a portion of their debt to the next. This is not an old white guy and millennial argument. It is the same argument that every generation has. 

Today's baby boomers are not screwing the millennials any worse than the greatest generation did us. The millennials will be blamed the same way the baby boomers are now.

This is not something BBs invented.


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## Altair (30 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm going to take a guess and say if it weren't for the old cohort, the young cohort would have to start working. Indulge my tin foil and common sense, while I try explain my personal feelings on the subject. It was the older cohort that paid for and supported, with their taxes, those programs and social engineering experiments and government initiatives. It is our money in OAS and CPP. It's our money that Wynne and Trudeau are pissing away. Who is paying for everything right now? Us old cohort are still paying our way, in increase taxes to give away our money to those that won't work. If future generations are going to be paying for our electricity and needs today, that is the governments fault not ours. I've never voted socialist in my life, but young people will, because the government promises to give them our money. Current examples of Wynne and Horvath promises to spend billions and none to the people paying for it. Who the hell is going to pay for that?
> 
> Maybe the young cohort wouldn't be so large today if our governments hadn't made us old cohort pay for all these youngsters that won't work and think we owe them something.
> 
> ...


Young people of today have yet to reach the seat of power,  and vote less than older Canadians do. You know who spent all that money?  It wasn't us. 

Who elected those governments?  Hmmmm. 

(We'll take responsibility for trudeau) 

That said,  while supporting older Canadians will be costly,  I never said don't do it. But the only reasonable way to do it is by increasing the birth rate or bringing in inmmigrants. I really don't care which.


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## Remius (30 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> None of that is relevant.
> 
> So each generation, carries forward the debt of the previous ones. Each generation makes advancements that are a boon to the next. Each generation leaves a portion of their debt to the next. This is not an old white guy and millennial argument. It is the same argument that every generation has.



Actually it was very relevant.

And this part of your reply is one I agree with.  The problem though is that the BB generation stopped having kids.  Affordability, vaccines, advancements etc all contribute to having less kids.  So the angry white guy that rails against immigration stopped having over 3 kids thus depriving the cycle of able bodied people to keep the cycle of debt passing and advancement passing to the next enervation.  Hence why we need to get the, elsewhere.  Doctors, engineers etc etc.  The baby boomers basically stopped booming.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (30 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> None of that is relevant. Us Old baby boomers paid our way and we still are. The benefits, and pitfalls, of every facet of society, in the last 75 years was pretty well invented by us. So while the millennials have picked up our debt, the same way we picked up the debt for the war(s) and the debt for the advancement for society to this point. No millennial gave us all the vaccines, no millennial gave us the advances we enjoy today.
> 
> So each generation, carries forward the debt of the previous ones. Each generation makes advancements that are a boon to the next. Each generation leaves a portion of their debt to the next. This is not an old white guy and millennial argument. It is the same argument that every generation has.
> 
> ...



But it IS relevant though. Regardless of race (not sure why that matters...) the fact of the matter is that the welfare state created in the post WW2 era and maintained through the lifespan of the baby boomers is the key contributor to the current fiscal issues faced by Canada. This system spent it's way through an unprecedented period of economic growth than attempted to spend its way through the inevitable slowdown caused by the rest of the world catching up. Your generation DID NOT pay it's way through- it financed it's way with debt that was passed on to the next generations. The same economic incompatibility that meant those programs weren't sustainable in the height of economic growth apply today. While you're right that BBs didn't invent deficit spending, they seemingly perfected it.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

I don't think it was baby boomers that saddled us with the debt of three wars and other skirmishes, but here we are. Our generation has expanded human knowledge and explored more of the earth and solar system, than any previous. We are responsible for the whole computer thing. Element of our generation are also responsible for the welfare state. Each generation is the same. They have advancements and pitfalls like every other.

But today, it's all about "Not my fault, you owe me." The same attitude that permeates the socialist welfare system.

The only political decisions I feel, even remotely, responsible for are ones by the conservatives.

I have never voted socialist or communist. Decisions by that bunch have absolutely nothing to do with me, except they use my money to pay for it..

This is not an aberration where the millennials are being screwed by the BB's. It happens to every generation.

We just have more people willing to work, compared to the give me everything millennials. They complain because they are running out of our money. Let me correct that. They HAVE run out of everyone else's money.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> But it IS relevant though. Regardless of race (not sure why that matters...) the fact of the matter is that the welfare state created in the post WW2 era and maintained through the lifespan of the baby boomers is the key contributor to the current fiscal issues faced by Canada. This system spent it's way through an unprecedented period of economic growth than attempted to spend its way through the inevitable slowdown caused by the rest of the world catching up. Your generation DID NOT pay it's way through- it financed it's way with debt that was passed on to the next generations. The same economic incompatibility that meant those programs weren't sustainable in the height of economic growth apply today. While you're right that BBs didn't invent deficit spending, they seemingly perfected it.



I love the fact that whatever explanation is given, people still flat out blame BB's. Like Wynne blames old, white people for everything. The millennials and communists never did any wrong.  :rofl:

I'm out.

Cheers


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## Cdn Blackshirt (30 Mar 2018)

Totally disagree about Baby Boomers having paid their way.

It may not have been you personally, but as a generation, the vast majority of entitlements and the associated liabilities as well as debt accumulation has occurred while you held sway in the voting demographics.

In addition, for the entitlements the boomers now expect to receive in old age (while retired), instead of a government trust fund generated by consecutive surpluses, you have saddled those who will still have to work with a massive set of provincial and federal debts, and the associated debt servicing costs that come along with it.


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## Remius (30 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> But it IS relevant though. Regardless of race (not sure why that matters...) the fact of the matter is that the welfare state created in the post WW2 era and maintained through the lifespan of the baby boomers is the key contributor to the current fiscal issues faced by Canada. This system spent it's way through an unprecedented period of economic growth than attempted to spend its way through the inevitable slowdown caused by the rest of the world catching up. Your generation DID NOT pay it's way through- it financed it's way with debt that was passed on to the next generations. The same economic incompatibility that meant those programs weren't sustainable in the height of economic growth apply today. While you're right that BBs didn't invent deficit spending, they seemingly perfected it.




The Great Recession earlier this century is one of those perfections the boomers messed up which led to damage that cohort of Millennials.  Lack of jobs hit younger people the hardest at that time.  So I can see why they blame the boomers. Bad financial manangement led to that cohort having less opportunities and less options.


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## Jed (30 Mar 2018)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Totally disagree about Baby Boomers having paid their way.
> 
> It may not have been you personally, but as a generation, the vast majority of entitlements and the associated liabilities as well as debt accumulation has occurred while you held sway in the voting demographics.
> 
> In addition, for the entitlements the boomers now expect to receive in old age (while retired), instead of a government trust fund generated by consecutive surpluses, you have saddled those who will still have to work with a massive set of provincial and federal debts, and the associated debt servicing costs that come along with it.



Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?


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## Bird_Gunner45 (30 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I don't think it was baby boomers that saddled us with the debt of three wars and other skirmishes, but here we are. Our generation has expanded human knowledge and explored more of the earth and solar system, than any previous. We are responsible for the whole computer thing. Element of our generation are also responsible for the welfare state. Each generation is the same. They have advancements and pitfalls like every other.
> 
> But today, it's all about "Not my fault, you owe me." The same attitude that permeates the socialist welfare system.
> 
> ...



For the 3 wars, I assume you mean WW1, WW2, and Korea.

WW1 saw net debt rise $878 million, or roughly $12.18 billion in 2017 dollars. 

WW2 saw net debt rise $8.2 billion or $107.97 billion.

From 1946 to 2000 net debt rose $560.44 billion, not including any adjustment for inflation ($571.74 billion - $11.298 billion). So, the cost of the 2 world wars in terms of pure debt was less than baby boomer era social deficits and debt not adjusted for inflation.

In terms of "we just have more people willing to work" do you have any sources for this assertion? According to stats Canada, unemployment from the 50's to the 70's (that high economic era discussed) was generally in the range of 3-5%. From 1973 through to 2000 the unemployment rate the rate dipped under 5% only 75-77 and went as high as 13%. From the mid-70's on, unemployment didn't drop below 6% until the late 2000's, when it spiked again because of the recession (where Harper put up the largest debt in Canadian history). However, as unemployment is now below 6% and the lowest in 40 years, it would seem that more millenials and gen x'ers are working than the BBs did.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (30 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?



But he's not right, they weren't paid for, they were mortgaged at the expense of Gen X and millenials. As for the second half- I believe this started with Altair saying that to improve the base to pay for the baby boomers health people either had to have more children or we needed more immigration, which are in fact solutions. The follow along argument was borne from this rational assertion.


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## Remius (30 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?



I would suggest reading the Fraser institute link than BG posted a few posts up. Part 6 and 7. They were not in fact paid for. 

It isn’t about blaming anyone.  Boomers stopped having kids.  Either you make more kids which Gen x and Millennials  aren’t due to affordability, lifestyle or whatever or you bring in more people.


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## Altair (30 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> But he's not right, they weren't paid for, they were mortgaged at the expense of Gen X and millenials. As for the second half- I believe this started with Altair saying that to improve the base to pay for the baby boomers health people either had to have more children or we needed more immigration, which are in fact solutions. The follow along argument was borne from this rational assertion.


Exactly. I'm not for blaming any one generation,  I'm more for looking at the solutions. 

Policies that enable people to have more kids in a affordable fashion,  or more immigrants coming in. One or the other,  or both.


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## Jed (30 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Exactly. I'm not for blaming any one generation,  I'm more for looking at the solutions.
> 
> Policies that enable people to have more kids in a affordable fashion,  or more immigrants coming in. One or the other,  or both.



No, you are singling out BBs, finding someone to blame. Hopefully my last time I take the bait.  Too many people resort to the childish ‘did too, did not’ game kids play. I will get off that Merry go round.


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## PPCLI Guy (30 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> No, you are singling out BBs, finding someone to blame. Hopefully my last time I take the bait.  Too many people resort to the childish ‘did too, did not’ game kids play. I will get off that Merry go round.



Hmm.  A very odd response, given that the sum total of your contribution to what has actually been a fairly good discussion has been:



			
				Jed said:
			
		

> Oh you mean those entitlements that were paid for?  RecceGuy is right. Why bother to argue with people whose default is to find someone to blame instead of working together to solve a problem?


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## YZT580 (30 Mar 2018)

Blaming Harper for the debt is slightly misleading.  He was in a minority government for the start of it and the spending was his method of buying off the opposition parties.  Stupid idea but it worked.  Unfortunately it put us greater in debt however Justin seems to be trying to surpass all of Steven's efforts and do it in a shorter time.  

On the immigration topic, we don't need more immigrants; at least not the ones we are getting.  We are not importing people who can hold ddown jobs and make a difference in our society as many do not have the skills.  They can however make babies and that seems to be their major contribution.  That isn't what we need.  That is an expensive way to increase your population as many of them will be on social assistance for years.  

The first thing that is needed is to create an atmosphere that recognises all work as honourable: even the simplest or most menial of tasks.  WE don't just need nurses we need PSWs that will help with the nitty-gritty of nursing for example.  Canadians need to be willing to pick cherries and apples and actually get dirty when they work.  Unemployment is high amongst young people because they don't have any skills or experience.  Yet most farmers import labourers because the local kids won't work.  I know of several businesses that have folded, not because of no business but simply because they can't staff the assembly line and they are paying more than minimum.

We need a proper vocational schools.  There is no way that Irving should have to go off-shore for welders and fitters.  Our schools should have been able to meet their needs without having to establish a new programme.

Then we need to create an environment that recognises the skills and contributions that mothers make to society and make it possible for a single income family to actually be able to afford to live, buy a house, and take a vacation: they used to.  Travel the streets of any major city and look at the old cookies cutter houses.  Those houses were built for working people and they could afford to buy them.  Now those same homes are being bought up, torn down and replaced by condo's that are far beyond the price range of any but the top 2 percent.


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## PPCLI Guy (30 Mar 2018)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> On the immigration topic, we don't need more immigrants; at least not the ones we are getting.  We are not importing people who can hold ddown jobs and make a difference in our society as many do not have the skills.  They can however make babies and that seems to be their major contribution.  That isn't what we need.  That is an expensive way to increase your population as many of them will be on social assistance for years.



Again, this sounds good (or at least it is the Easy button), until you start doing some research:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2016375-eng.htm



> Abstract
> This paper provides, for the first time, an overview of immigrant business ownership and the associated employment in Canada. The focus is on ownership of private incorporated firms and on the unincorporated self-employed. Immigrants are entrepreneurial. While immigrant business ownership rates are low immediately after entry, after four to eight years in Canada they surpass those of the comparison group (largely Canadian-born). However, among private incorporated firms, immigrant-owned businesses tend to be smaller than those owned by the Canadian-born. Hence, on a per capita basis, the job creation rate via ownership of private incorporated companies was lower among immigrants than the Canadian-born. However, the per capita job creation rate via unincorporated self-employment was higher among immigrants than the Canadian-born. For almost one-half of the unincorporated self-employed immigrants, self-employment was a secondary activity; most of their earnings came from paid jobs. Ownership rates vary significantly by education, age, source region and gender of the immigrant. Business class immigrants have the highest propensity for business ownership, but, since this is a small group, they accounted for little of all immigrant business ownership and job creation in 2010. Immigrants in the economic class accounted for the largest share, and, although not selected for economic reasons, immigrants in the family and refugee classes accounted for 40% to 50% of all immigrant business ownership. This paper also compares the industrial distribution of immigrant-owned businesses with that of businesses owned by the Canadian-born population.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> It is hard to find directly comparative stats, but those that are available suggest that this may not be a fair characterisation...
> 
> http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2016375-eng.htm
> 
> ...



Thanks for taking the time to dig those up, I'll go through them all.  Maybe my disconnect is the difference between responsible immigration  and the Liberals plan for refugees.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Mar 2018)

Relevant?

 https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/03/27/a-hairstylist-license-can-be-as-elusive-as-a-doctors-license-for-newcomers.html




> ‘I’m not trying to be a doctor. I just want to cut men’s hair’
> 
> With over 15 years of experience as a barber in Iraq, Benjamin Gbo can’t cut anyone’s hair in a salon without a hairstylist licence in Ontario — a process he has failed five times already.
> 
> ...


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## Remius (30 Mar 2018)

The whole hairstyle liscence debacle was and is money grab.


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## mariomike (30 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> The whole hairstyle liscence debacle was and is money grab.



"Being a barber is a lot like being a bar man or a soda jerk. There's not much to it once you've learned the basic moves."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR0wCC271s4


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## PPCLI Guy (30 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Relevant?
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/03/27/a-hairstylist-license-can-be-as-elusive-as-a-doctors-license-for-newcomers.html



Yup.  Plenty of "skilled immigrants" have great difficulty with the various provincial exams etc.  It seems if you haven't gone through a school (that engenders student debt held by the province) to be taught to a specific test, you are SOL.

We need to be making this easier, in order to harness the energy and entrepreneurial spirit inherent in the vast majority of immigrants.  As a child immigrant myself (that's right, I stole a job from a REAL Canadian), I have nothing but respect for those brave souls who take a leap into the great unknown in order to forge a better future for themselves and their families.


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## ModlrMike (30 Mar 2018)

In the course of the day I meet a great many people. I can count on one hand the number of first generation immigrants I've met who are on social assistance.  I find that the immigrants are often the hardest working, and the "home grown" not so much. A gross generalization, I know... but that's just my experience.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

It's ten months and 3800 apprentice hours for barber/hairstylist/esthetician. There's a lot more to it besides flying around a head with scissors. Diseases are common. Unregulated shops have caused horrendous infections, mostly mani's and pedi's, but hair related also. I think it only right that if we are going to give someone a license, they have to meet the standard of every other skilled person in the trade. Just the fact that they've never heard or worried about diseases, causes or remedies is disturbing in itself. I've been through my wife's books. It is nothing like cutting each others hair on deployment. Cutting hair is one of the smaller portions of the course.

I saw lots of doctors and dentists in Afghanistan. They would yank your tooth then use the same pliers to go back working on their scooters. I'd feel a whole bunch better if I saw a Canadian diploma on the wall. If the guy can't pass the test, maybe he should take the course. The Ministry of Colleges and Trades will provide a translator and drop the time limit for exams. If he can't pass, he doesn't know the material. If he doesn't know the material, he can't be a barber. :dunno:

We are way ahead of many countries when health & safety in the workplace is involved. Those rules have been sharpened and refined over the years to ensure both workers and customers receive as little exposure to accidents and danger as possible. I see no reason to arbitrarily reduce that standard to accommodate anyone. 

Go ahead and make the process easier for someone, but we should not lower standards in order to accommodate.


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## Jed (30 Mar 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> In the course of the day I meet a great many people. I can count on one hand the number of first generation immigrants I've met who are on social assistance.  I find that the immigrants are often the hardest working, and the "home grown" not so much. A gross generalization, I know... but that's just my experience.



With respect to immigrants that I have met I entirely agree with you.  However, how come the media seems to focus on all those who seem to complain and whine about how hard they are done by and how the world is treating them so unfairly?

Maybe it is just a personal pet peeve of mine but I dislike whiners whether they are immigrants or 6th generation whatevers. If my forefathers ever spent this much effort whining, being a victim and not helping themselves or their neighbours I doubt I and my siblings would still be around.


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## YZT580 (30 Mar 2018)

First off, thanks for the information.  I will willingly concede the point regarding their eagerness to work.  But the issues you have raised are valid and are indicative of the problems that I mentioned.  My comments re: baby factories were not intended as derogatory but simply observation.  This is what is happening.  Those with funding start their own businesses but many are stuck with the problems of acquiring the necessary skills to make a go of it in this country.  Immigrants should be screened to ensure that they have a place to go and to work.  The same is NOT  true of those misfortunates who enter as legitimate refugees.  That is where our aid needs to go to bring them up to the level of expertise that the normal normal stream of immigrants already has achieved.  But that still doesn't address the issue of population growth.  Unless that is fixed the children of the immigrants will be in the same fix as we are now.  No money and no time for families.


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## FJAG (31 Mar 2018)

Just as a research point and basis for discussion of who was responsible for our national debt etc the following provides a very comprehensive analysis of the Federal Government's Fiscal Histroy since Confederation:

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/federal-fiscal-history-canada-1867-2017.pdf

 :cheers:


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## mariomike (31 Mar 2018)

I'm a baby Boomer. Not by choice. It was an accident of birth.  
So, I have no axe to grind with Millenials. More power to them.
We Baby Boomers had it better than the 46er's ( WW2 vets ) on the department, who fought their battles with the city before we were born. We enjoyed a much better platoon system than they did.

I can only speak of the city I worked for.

What do Millenials have the we didn't?

Millenials have a 2.33% accrual rate on their pensions. We had a 2% accrual rate.

That means they can "max out" at 70% after 30 years. It took us 35 years to achieve that.

They have "presumptive legislation" for PTSD and "cumulative mental stress". Out of service time and paid stress leave - at their discretion - for any calls they feel "troubled" by. 

We never had PTSD leave. Stress leave. Mental health leave. Down Time. Operational leave. Call it what you want. Nothing at all like that. It had to be a PHYSICAL injury to get off Emergency Operations.

Power stretchers now, and can call for back-up any time they want. No questions asked.

They get meal breaks - paid of course. Time and a half if it is delayed. They get a meal allowance. 

A much - much - lower call volume than we had. Guaranteed minimum car counts. Unit hour Utilization ( UhU ) they call it. 

Early call benefits. Late call benefits. Out of service time.

Wash up time. Lock up time.

Quarantine bonus. Working quarantine bonus.

ETF, PSU, HUSAR, Marine, Bike, CBRNE, FTO, Research,  etc... bonuses.

That's just a short version of some of the improvements to the collective agreement that Millienials have that Baby Boomers didn't.


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## PPCLI Guy (31 Mar 2018)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> But that still doesn't address the issue of population growth.  Unless that is fixed the children of the immigrants will be in the same fix as we are now.  No money and no time for families.



I think you may be missing the point.  The problem we have is not one of population growth - rather it is one of stagnation or decline of the population.  Under the current construct of the global economy, our standard of living is dependent on our external trade - our domestic market is too small to support our exorbitant lifestyles.  Trade requires product or services, all of which require labour.  With declining birthrates already below the replacement threshold, without immigration, our population will decrease.....and with it, our economy and hence our lifestyle.

We cannot make this work, again, under the current construct of the global economy, without immigration.


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## Altair (31 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I think you may be missing the point.  The problem we have is not one of population growth - rather it is one of stagnation or decline of the population.  Under the current construct of the global economy, our standard of living is dependent on our external trade - our domestic market is too small to support our exorbitant lifestyles.  Trade requires product or services, all of which require labour.  With declining birthrates already below the replacement threshold, without immigration, our population will decrease.....and with it, our economy and hence our lifestyle.
> 
> We cannot make this work, again, under the current construct of the global economy, without immigration.


thankfully,  fast coming is the day where machines take over much of our work,  but then we will want a population cap for there will not be enough labour to go around.


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## Kat Stevens (31 Mar 2018)

Never fear, once the energy sector is choked out of existence there won't be enough jobs so we won't need to import anyone.


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## SupersonicMax (31 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I saw lots of doctors and dentists in Afghanistan. They would yank your tooth then use the same pliers to go back working on their scooters. I'd feel a whole bunch better if I saw a Canadian diploma on the wall. If the guy can't pass the test, maybe he should take the course. The Ministry of Colleges and Trades will provide a translator and drop the time limit for exams. If he can't pass, he doesn't know the material. If he doesn't know the material, he can't be a barber. :dunno:



Comparing hairdressers with doctors?!

There is a distinction between getting training to be exposed to concepts and being tested on things you learn by heart (and prompty dump from memory after the exam).  A more useful way to test is to test cognitive abilities.  If the trade is such that there aren't critical cognitive abilities, perhaps there is no need for a written exam and the focus should be on practical applications...


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## Eaglelord17 (31 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I'm a baby Boomer. Not by choice. It was an accident of birth.
> So, I have no axe to grind with Millenials. More power to them.
> We Baby Boomers had it better than the 46er's ( WW2 vets ) on the department, who fought their battles with the city before we were born. We enjoyed a much better platoon system than they did.
> 
> ...



And that is a example of one government organization which many could easily argue are overpaid and receive too much in benefits (as paraphrased, your given much more now than you ever received in the past for the same job with less requirements for the job). Most organizations have gone the other way. Less high paying jobs (mainly due to a decline of industrial jobs in country), less benefits, worse pensions (most civilian employers now only have defined contribution as opposed to before when most were defined benefit), higher educational requirements to find employment, etc.

We have higher taxes, more expensive housing, more expensive vehicles, and in general less opportunities. That being said, there are still opportunities, you just have to be willing to take them. For example anyone who goes into a skilled trade in the next 10 years will be set for life. The cons to that is employers have made it difficult to get hired into a apprenticeship and most expect much more out of apprentices than they did in the last 40+ years.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Comparing hairdressers with doctors?!
> 
> There is a distinction between getting training to be exposed to concepts and being tested on things you learn by heart (and prompty dump from memory after the exam).  A more useful way to test is to test cognitive abilities.  If the trade is such that there aren't critical cognitive abilities, perhaps there is no need for a written exam and the focus should be on practical applications...



There may be a likelyhood, where this guy came from, they are likely the same. Barbers were your dentists, even here at one time. I would suggest you look at the curriculum, before writing these trades off as simple rote learned physical actions. http://www.collegeoftrades.ca/wp-content/uploads/Hairstylist.pdf  If I'm going in for a shave, I want to know that the guy that might nick me has done everything to make sure I don't get hep or aids or msra. I don't want to be touched by tools that have not been properly disinfected, their shop has to comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer. Barbers, in Ontario, are classed as hairstylists. Their level of customer health care and safety is a mandated by the province for a reason. This guy is not just cutting his fire team partners hair on deployment. Just because you can trim someone's hair, doesn't mean you're a barber. What if his wife wants to do nails in the shop. Should that be allowed because she worked on nails in her village?What happens when she gives someone hep or msra? How do you track the infection if it started in an unregistered shop, caused by someone not trained or licensed. 

And why the hell should I have paid thousands of dollars , so my wife could spend a couple of years, full time, learning her trade, when someone else, not qualified can set up shop just for coming to Canada. What if the person was American or British. What if some squaddie gets out, comes to Canada and says I've been cutting hair for years, I don't need this, just give me a license. Are you going to do it?

I'm all for giving people a hand up. However, creating two classes of workers, is not the way to go. I've seen the exam rooms and how they work. This guy was likely put in a room by himself with only his terp, who is familiar with the exam and terminology and probably given all the time required to complete it. If he's fluent in english, probably no terp.

Our licensing procedures are not in place to impose hardship. First and foremost with ANY job or business in Ontario, health & safety are paramount and top the list for any enterprise in this province. If you can't fulfill the H&S requirements for the trade, it's full stop right there, no carrying on and getting to it later.


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## PPCLI Guy (31 Mar 2018)

Not to poke you RG, but the requirement to "comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer." sounds pretty big government and dare I say it socialist?


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> "Being a barber is a lot like being a bar man or a soda jerk. There's not much to it once you've learned the basic moves."
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR0wCC271s4



Nice comedy relief Mario. I love Billy Bob.

But no, it's not like that.


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## SupersonicMax (31 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> There may be a likelyhood, where this guy came from, they are likely the same. Barbers were your dentists, even here at one time. I would suggest you look at the curriculum, before writing these trades off as simple rote learned physical actions. http://www.collegeoftrades.ca/wp-content/uploads/Hairstylist.pdf  If I'm going in for a shave, I want to know that the guy that might nick me has done everything to make sure I don't get hep or aids or msra. I don't want to be touched by tools that have not been properly disinfected, their shop has to comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer. Barbers, in Ontario, are classed as hairstylists.



I am actually suggesting that exams should NOT focus on rote learning but on practical applications: rote learning doesn't prove much and it seems this is a part of the issue from migrants.  Written exams for solely practical trades doesn't really help determining if someone is fit to work in that trade.  The fact your barber knows the names of bacterial infections doesn't mean you're safer.  His/her habbits and practices will keep you safe.


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## kratz (31 Mar 2018)

The discussion of regulation / requirements / or licensing is a pan-Canada issue, not just Ontario.

I'm a Gen-X, and I have witnessed the "over qualification" of the labour market.
When I was a youth, it was easy to apply for entry level jobs.
Today, you are not even considered if you don't have "training" in that field 

10 years ago, I knew one lady, she was proud to have earned her "call center worker" certificate from the college.
After 20+ years of service, without a college or university piece of paper, my CAF skills and knowledge  are ignored.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Not to poke you RG, but the requirement to "comply with Min of Labour, Min of Colleges and Trades, Min of Health along with various municipal laws. These laws are in place to protect the worker and the customer." sounds pretty big government and dare I say it socialist?



Sure, until you have to investigate a guy who is now 1/2 thick from being caught in a press. Taking pictures while they scrape him out of the machine. Waiting for lift because you have a guy under a 5 ton slab of marble. Or someone is off work because they got an infection and lost a hand, or their lungs have turned hard and cracked because the employer didn't know what he was doing with imron paint and now the inside of the dead guys lungs are sealed with plastic. Heck, I've even had to bag body parts and deliver them because EMS and Fire missed them and I found them during initial investigation. I've got ten years of those stories. In Ontario, health & safety are paramount. The number one, legislated, concern in the workplace. We still kill and injure people, but nowhere on the scale we used to. Before we came along, working on, say, the Peace Bridge, would have only required a good sense of balance. No harnesses, no divers, no training, not anything except a pulse and strong back.

Let's try lighten the mood a bit. 

If you want to see the 'socialist' construct to industrial safety, I have a clip I used to show owners. It has fairly wide distribution and there are tons of examples out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL1AgOqnYYE


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> The discussion of regulation / requirements / or licensing is a pan-Canada issue, not just Ontario.
> 
> I'm a Gen-X, and I have witnessed the "over qualification" of the labour market.
> When I was a youth, it was easy to apply for entry level jobs.
> ...



It started when everyone had to become a doctor or lawyer.

I went to a trade school for high school. Not a vocational school, a regular high school. Difference was, along with academics, we also learned skilled trade. In grade 9 you took them all. Auto, electrical, welding, brick laying, carpentry, metal forming, metal cutting, plumbing, foundry, pattern making, etc. All exceedingly high paying jobs now. 

In grade 10 you whittled those down and started to specialize. By grade 12, you were usually picked up for employment for your trade before graduation. Your school experience counted toward your apprenticeship and most guys were journeymen (no not like that  ) within a year.

People that grew up doing those jobs wanted better for their kids, so the pushed them to university for professional diplomas. Everyone could wear their rings and hang out their lettered shingles.

But there was no one to unplug the toilet, or change their tire or wire in a new light.

We have a local builder so desperate for bricklayers he approached the school board and offered to pay the costs involved and supply the instructors and materials, to make it part of the voluntary curriculum. You can't get a seat in that class.

I'll agree there is over regulation, but I'm only experienced in my field and in my field, regulations are made so people don't get killed, not to create red tape or stifle business.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

Something just pinged.

Service people may not be aware of the stiffness of civilian regulation. Probably, because we don't see it.

I don't know the inside of a Leopard, but I do a Centurion, an APC and numerous other pieces of CF equipment.

I will guarantee, that you would never be able to modify those machines, and stay operational, if they followed civilian regulations.

But we don't and because of the nature of the beast, we have immunity from those rules, so may not see safety from the same perspective of a civie.

Just an untested theory.


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## kratz (31 Mar 2018)

Now that the "red tape" is in place, we have a labour market that is disfunctional. 

If you have a degree, you don't have workforce experience
If you have a community college diploma, you don't have life experience.
If you have both life and workforce experience, you are passed over for that piece of paper.

My wife's grandfather was told by the new brick layer union his 26 years had to be examined
for entry. He told them off and continued for another 17 years. We don't have as many of these options these days.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I am actually suggesting that exams should NOT focus on rote learning but on practical applications: rote learning doesn't prove much and it seems this is a part of the issue from migrants.  Written exams for solely practical trades doesn't really help determining if someone is fit to work in that trade.  The fact your barber knows the names of bacterial infections doesn't mean you're safer. His/her habits and practices will keep you safe.



Guess what? That doesn't work. I speak from experience. Health and safety are the first things that fall off the table when the bottom line needs fixing. And by rote, I meant the learned movement of their scissors, clippers whatever. Not book learning rote.

He could do the exam orally. You think disinfection and diseases of the skin and scalp should not be covered? You think that good sanitation practices should just be taken for granted? If someone has a scalp problem, dry skin, fungal (ringworm) infections, psoriasis, eczema or seborrheic dermatitis. I want a barber to identify it and tell them to see a doctor. I don't want those same tools used on me until they are properly disinfected to industry standards. There is the mixing of chemicals for treatments of different types of hair and styles. Let him be a barber, I don't care, but I want to walk in and see that certificate before he touches me to tell me he's, at least, aware of the H&S issues. Established, licensed barbers in Canada, have been making your argument for years, it hasn't worked for the same reason as the reasons I've stated.

Complain if you want. It won't be changing unless it changes for everyone.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> Now that the "red tape" is in place, we have a labour market that is disfunctional.
> 
> If you have a degree, you don't have workforce experience
> If you have a community college diploma, you don't have life experience.
> ...



That is an overall malady of the system. We can state the problems all we want, it's the change that's required. However, with change there needs to be compromise. It can't be top down, the way it is, nor bottom up as the trades want. One of the biggest impediments to skilled trades entry to the workforce are the artificial low apprenticeship rates forced by the unions to keep the trade high paying, high demand and exclusive.


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## SupersonicMax (31 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Guess what? That doesn't work. I speak from experience. Health and safety are the first things that fall off the table when the bottom line needs fixing. And by rote, I meant the learned movement of their scissors, clippers whatever. Not book learning rote.
> 
> He could do the exam orally. You think disinfection and diseases of the skin and scalp should not be covered? You think that good sanitation practices should just be taken for granted? If someone has a scalp problem, dry skin, fungal (ringworm) infections, psoriasis, eczema or seborrheic dermatitis. I want a barber to identify it and tell them to see a doctor. I don't want those same tools used on me until they are properly disinfected to industry standards. There is the mixing of chemicals for treatments of different types of hair and styles. Let him be a barber, I don't care, but I want to walk in and see that certificate before he touches me to tell me he's, at least, aware of the H&S issues. Established, licensed barbers in Canada, have been making your argument for years, it hasn't worked for the same reason as the reasons I've stated.
> 
> Complain if you want. It won't be changing unless it changes for everyone.



You're the one claiming the standards are rigourous for the sake of safety.  I am saying that knowing words (seems like it is part of the current standard and what is at issues) will not help that in the hairdressing world.  Practical assessments go a much longer way...


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## kratz (31 Mar 2018)

Now the truth comes out for the generations.

Professionals who won' retire, and union staff who won't retire. 

Top end for both groups has forced one generation to "make due"
and the next generation is not willing to put up with it.

Politics still boils down to who is paying for it.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You're the one claiming the standards are rigourous for the sake of safety.  I am saying that knowing words (seems like it is part of the current standard and what is at issues) will not help that in the hairdressing world.  Practical assessments go a much longer way...



And you cover all practicalities of a trade with physically testing instead, is that your premise?

How long is this 'exam' supposed to last? How many people, testers, testees, training aids are going to be required to ensure that the person has the correct knowledge in order to ensure his customers are safe and satisfied? Are they going to be tested on diseases? Hygiene? How big is this room and how much equipment will be required. Don't forget, all this stuff is only for a single exam. A barber test used to consist of shaving off all the shaving cream from a fully inflated and covered balloon with a straight razor. If you could do that, you were a barber, at least in Italy. That sounds like where you want to go back to.


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## SupersonicMax (31 Mar 2018)

We are talking about barbers, not doctors.  Don't need to make it sound like it's rocket science. Yes, in a practical exam, you can assess a sample of practical exercises to make a broader determination on the overall level of competence, especially on critical items such as health and safety.  You don't need to know the intricacies of the possible diseases to know that you need to keep your tool disinfected to avoid them.


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## mariomike (31 Mar 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> And that is a example of one government organization which many could easily argue are overpaid and receive too much in benefits (as paraphrased, your given much more now than you ever received in the past for the same job with less requirements for the job).



Whether too much, or too little too late, I suppose it would depend on if the employee was a Baby Boomer or Millenial.  

This helps illustrate that the collective agreement for Millenials has improved from what the Baby Boomers had,

QUOTE

From the Ontario WSIB site,

On April 6, 2016 the Ontario Government amended the Workplace Safety and Insurance Act (WSIA) with the passage of Bill 163 titled Supporting Ontario’s First Responders Act (Posttraumatic Stress Disorder), 2016. 

As a result, if a first responder or other designated worker covered by the legislation is diagnosed with Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) by a psychiatrist or psychologist and makes a claim for benefits, the WSIB must presume the condition is work-related, unless the contrary is shown.

END QUOTE

What that means in my former union ( I retired in 2009 ) is,

QUOTE

Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.

END QUOTE

ie: A paramedic placed into a suitable ( as there is no "comparable" ) permanent alternate position ( such Ferry Ticket Collector, Deckhand, Mail Car Driver, Marine Oiler, Farm Attendant, Heavy Equipment Operator, Arena / Pool Operator - the list of low / semi-skilled jobs with the City is endless ) will be paid as a paramedic, with all the annual wage increases, until they retire.  

You can ask to be trained for placement into a more demanding job classification eg: mechanic, millwright, electrician, plumber, Electrical Instrumentation Control Technician ( EICT ) etc. 

They do have highly-skilled technical jobs available, but there is no financial incentive for the employee to accept them, as your pre-injury wage is protected, and higher than anything they have to offer. You may also stay on the department as a non-operational paramedic such as Community Paramedicine etc.


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## Good2Golf (31 Mar 2018)

Health care is important enough that doctors should receive as much help as they can, including patient referrals from competent, certified hair and scalp care professionals. 

:2c:

Regards,
G2G

*edit*

My apologies to the forum, I forgot to add a smilie to my post.     :sarcasm:


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## SupersonicMax (31 Mar 2018)

Yes and I am sure the specifics of skin cancer and dermitis doesn't need to be memorized to be effective at detecting it.


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## kratz (31 Mar 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Health care is important enough that doctors should receive as much help as they can, including patient referrals from competent, certified hair and scalp care professionals.



In my situation, after so many moves...I have nobody who knows my Head, Bones, Groans or other Eyes. 
My history adds up to who is assessing me today. As a civy spouse, this sucks.


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## PPCLI Guy (31 Mar 2018)

Back to millennials - a great *OPINION* piece from (satirist) Alexandra Petri from the WAPO.  Please do not turn this into another gun control discussion - the rest of what she has to say has some bearing on the original topic at hand:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2018/03/29/i-am-sick-of-these-kids-demanding-safe-spaces/?utm_term=.d45b1d8db8e7



> I am sick of these kids demanding safe spaces
> By Alexandra Petri March 29
> 
> 
> ...


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## ModlrMike (31 Mar 2018)

I know it's meant as satire, but perhaps there's a grain of truth in there. Perhaps today's children are too soft. Perhaps a little hardship would be beneficial. At the risk of sounding like the "get off my lawn" guy, today's children need to harden the f*ck up.


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## Good2Golf (31 Mar 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I know it's meant as satire, but perhaps there's a grain of truth in there. Perhaps today's children are too soft. Perhaps a little hardship would be beneficial. At the risk of sounding like the "get off my lawn" guy, today's children need to harden the f*ck up.



In fairness to Millennials, if hover-parents and a society that gratuitously hands out medals for kids showing up to any event with pretty much a heart-beat hadn't been so _de rigeur_ over the last couple of decades, maybe there'd be less hurt feelings.  After all, if kids aren't armed with all the tools they need to enter young adulthood, is it all their fault?  Serious question.

Regards
G2G


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Apr 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Yes and I am sure the specifics of skin cancer and dermitis doesn't need to be memorized to be effective at detecting it.





			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Health care is important enough that doctors should receive as much help as they can, including patient referrals from competent, certified hair and scalp care professionals.
> 
> :2c:
> 
> ...



Know what, I flew model planes as a kid, even went up a few times and played with the controls. Had quite a few hours in the VooDoo simulator. Went up on a couple of dozen Voodoo and TBird post inspection test flights and had the controls for a bit.

It really didn't seem all that difficult. I don't know shit about any of it, but I've done it, so you should give me my license.

There's really no reason to respond, because you think there's  a difference between pilots and barbers.. 

For this discussion, it doesn't matter.

Both are professional
Both require training and licensing
Both are constrained by rules, and in Ontario you have to be certified to the standard.
It doesn't matter, if you don't like those rules, or make fun of them, you still have to follow them.

Obviously, you'd rather make fun than have a discussion, which means, at this time in my forum evolution, I have no need for input from either of you.

Thanks for your previous points and input.

Cheers


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## Bird_Gunner45 (1 Apr 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I know it's meant as satire, but perhaps there's a grain of truth in there. Perhaps today's children are too soft. Perhaps a little hardship would be beneficial. At the risk of sounding like the "get off my lawn" guy, today's children need to harden the **** up.



That's the problem with the argument- it's based on stereotypes and opinion with little to no factual evidence to demonstrate that millenials need to harden up any more than baby boomers did. Are millenials to baby boomers as dirty hippies were to their forefathers? In reality, more than likely as the opinions are based on an element of an entire generation that has created the "snow flake/safe space" stereotype/trope vice the entire generation itself. Even if you look at high profile events such as the UC Berkeley protest for Milo Yiannopoulus, the total protest was estimated at 1500 people out of a total student population of 41,910. Assuming that every single protestor was a student that's about 3.6% of the total student body that protested. Berkely College republicans have 6500 members or 15.5% of the population. I think this is the real story. Millenials are no more "lazy", "mooching" or "soft" than the previous generations. It's just taking extremes and making them to be the norm.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Apr 2018)

You're right and my stereotypical, generalized response that all millennials are lazy was wrong.

I think, the point you're making is the squeaky wheel gets the grease and publicity?


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## kratz (1 Apr 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I know it's meant as satire, but perhaps there's a grain of truth in there. Perhaps today's children are too soft. Perhaps a little hardship would be beneficial. At the risk of sounding like the "get off my lawn" guy, today's children need to harden the **** up.



You should have seen the butthurt kids in my college courses were having over they way they were treated. Their lack of life experience was a shocking splash of water when they failed ect...


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2018)

For reference to the discussion,

From 2016

Canadian millennials hold off on their love of country
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124300.0
Canadians 18 to 34 less likely to say they are proud of Canada than older Canadians
4 pages.

How Do You Attract and Retain Generation Y?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/92228.0

Gen X recruits vs Gen Y recruits
https://army.ca/forums/threads/77620.0/nowap.html
2 pages.

Why Generation Y Yuppies Are Unhappy  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/112171.0

etc...


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## FJAG (1 Apr 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> You should have seen the butthurt kids in my college courses were having over they way they were treated. Their lack of life experience was a shocking splash of water when they failed ect...



I think that's an every generation thing.

Back in 1981 I started law school as one of ten "older" folks out of a class of ninety. The other eighty were all young, idealistic puppies (and considering it was law school they were mostly altruistic capitalist with a sprinkling of rabid socialists). Either way, they had a universal lack of life experiences (other than undergraduate studies) and a high expectation that, as society's elite, the world owed them a living.

 :cheers:


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2018)

I think the Greeks mocked the Romans for being idealistic snow-flakes who figured the world owed them everything.


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## PPCLI Guy (1 Apr 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I think the Greeks mocked the Romans for being idealistic snow-flakes who figured the world owed them everything.



Mind you, it is easy to mock a defeated vassal state....


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## Bird_Gunner45 (1 Apr 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You're right and my stereotypical, generalized response that all millennials are lazy was wrong.
> 
> I think, the point you're making is the squeaky wheel gets the grease and publicity?



I think it's that and I think it's convenient for both right and left ideologies to take the extreme examples to push their own agenda's. Take the right wing coverage of the Ben Shapiro at UC Berkeley event. In reality, the protest was similar in size if not smaller than Yianoppolous' but got far more coverage which helped to push Shapiro's own narrative. The same can be said for the Charlottesville focus on Nazi's and or Antifa (dependent on your ideology).


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## Brad Sallows (2 Apr 2018)

We Boomers did not "pay our own way"; deficit spending was used to support new programs, and CPP is a prime example of a Ponzi program.  People complaining about deficits need to be clear about the important difference between cyclical deficits (eg. the 2008+ "economic plan" years) and systemic deficits (what we have now, as we had pre-1985/86).

There is no inherent reason the population must keep growing; adjustment to an aging and shrinking population is a temporary issue just as the boom itself was temporary.  Some people just think we have to have immigration to cover gaps because they either are incapable of working around a shrinking population or they have grown accustomed to living well without "paying their own way".  Canada's immigration policy tends to draw productive people; no-one asks whether the countries losing those people need them more than Canada does.  Our immigration policy is selfishness writ large; I'd really like to see it stop.


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Apr 2018)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Canada's immigration policy tends to draw productive people; no-one asks whether the countries losing those people need them more than Canada does.  Our immigration policy is selfishness writ large; I'd really like to see it stop.



This.  It is an incredibly important insight.  I keep caveating my observations on immigration with the  statement "given the current global economy".  This is ultimately what needs to change, but in the meantime, you play the game you have at the edges of its existing rules...


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## daftandbarmy (2 Apr 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I think the Greeks mocked the Romans for being idealistic snow-flakes who figured the world owed them everything.



“To be really mediæval one should have no body. 
To be really modern one should have no soul. 
To be really Greek one should have no clothes.”

― Oscar Wilde, Complete Works of Oscar Wilde

 ;D


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