# How are Chaplains perceived by other CF members?



## Humphrey (17 Sep 2009)

I'm not sure where to post this exactly, so I'll start here.

I'm wondering about CF chaplains and the perception, experiences, and the different attitudes that CF members might hold about chaplains?  

What positive and helpful contributions do chaplains make in the lives of CF members whether in garrison or on deployment?  What are the not-so-good things about chaplains in your perspective?  I would be interested to hear whatever candid impressions you have about chaplains whether it's good, bad, or indifferent.

Thanks.



(Moderator edit to clarify title.)


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## PMedMoe (18 Sep 2009)

Is there a particular reason why you want this info?


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## Roy Harding (18 Sep 2009)

I am not a religious man in any way, shape, or form.  And I'm not shy about it.  Neither do I push my views in anybody's face.

During my career, I invariably found the Chaplains to be great guys, who were genuinely concerned with the troops well-being, and who worked hard to assist individuals with personal problems.  They were kind, compassionate, caring souls - who could rarely be fooled by malingerers - in those cases, I found Chaplains to be "tough love" advocates of the highest order.  I never found one who "pushed" religion on anyone, or who took exception to one's lack of religious faith.  They did run religious services for those who wished to attend, and I'm sure that was a great comfort for those wishing to make religious observances.

In my opinion, these guys (and ladies) are an essential element in any unit - not enough can be said regarding their effectiveness at helping soldiers with personal problems, and at bringing those problems directly to "the top" of the C of C, if necessary.  Much of their work is not seen or appreciated by the majority of the troops - but it is necessary.


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## PMedMoe (18 Sep 2009)

I agree with Roy's statement, I have never had a problem with the Chaplains in the military.  I think they are essential to the CF in a variety of ways.


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## vonGarvin (18 Sep 2009)

One thing that many forget is that chaplains, though members of various religious orders, perform duties way above and beyond anything related religious in nature.  They are in the strictist sense a confidante.  They are an advocate for morale, and they can be the "conscience" for the commander, reminding him or her of their duties.

At one time, I believe that Chaplains very deliberately did not wear rank.  The idea was that they were to be considered one day senior to the person they were addressing.  I can see merit in that, in that a brand new private may not be able to see past the captain's bars on the chaplain's uniform.  Conversely, a bully of a CO would not be able to "Captain" the chaplain.  (eg: "shut up _captain_, I'm the CO!")

As for religious services, as a practicing Roman Catholic, I found that the ability to attend mass pretty well any place, any time, was comforting to me.  The smallest mass in which I participated involved exactly three persons: the priest, me and and one other participant.

So, all this to say that they do what civilian priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, etc do; however, they are much MUCH more than that.  And the troops all appreciate having them around, for a variety of reasons.


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## Humphrey (18 Sep 2009)

Thank you Roy and Midnight Rambler for your thoughts.  Much appreciated.

PMedMoe, I ask because I'm curious.  I did a search for "chaplain" on the site, and I did a search for "padre" and found nothing.  So that got me wondering about what CF members think about chaplains.

I look forward to hearing more responses.


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## Roy Harding (18 Sep 2009)

The Search function is currently not working well.

This thread http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/89114.0.html provides the explanation.


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## dapaterson (18 Sep 2009)

I am not fully familiar with the history, but in WWII chaplains held only honorary rank.  See, for example, HCapt Foote, VC


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## kratz (18 Sep 2009)

Searching the site through Google found one discusson on the CF role of Padres.


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## PMedMoe (18 Sep 2009)

Humphrey said:
			
		

> PMedMoe, I ask because I'm curious.



I asked because I was curious, too.  No worries, I don't think you have an ulterior motive or hidden agenda.     We do get people on here doing research or writing papers on various things and I like to know what I'm responding to.


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## Gunnar (18 Sep 2009)

Based on everything I have heard from those who serve, the padres are everything a priest is supposed to be--Good Christians (et al) who attempt to guide their flock, without pressuring them on obscure points of doctrine.  They soldier on.  They are a shoulder to lean on, a hand up, and occasionally a kick in the arse.  Occasionally they can get you a drink.  They do their damn job, often in a way that their civilian counterparts don't seem to match.  They are the quiet, unsung heroes who are *part of their community*, and are familiar with the sins and foibles of mortal men, and help them handle it.  They are not the kind of clergy who run around damning everyone with a holier than thou kind of attitude. 

This is my impression, as gleaned second-hand from a padre on the board, and those who have had recourse to one in the past.  I have never served, so I may have a rosier picture than some.


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## Humphrey (18 Sep 2009)

Thankfully I wrote my last term paper over a decade ago, and I have no great plans to write more in the near future.  Life provides enough deadlines, eh?

Chaplaincy happens in different contexts in civilian culture as well as within the police forces in Canada.  I've certainly had opportunity to speak with chaplains in hospitals, and RCMP Chaplains over the years.  However, it really isn't quite the same as hearing responses from the people the chaplains will work with and care for.

Years ago I spoke with a fellow serving with PPCLI and he suggested that he would prefer it if chaplains spent more time being someone a soldier could feel comfortable "talking to" rather than the guy policing troop language while out in the field.

Chaplains tell me that their training really focuses on "being there" for whoever needs them and the person you care for sets the tone for the chaplain's work.

I read an account of a chaplain serving with troops at a fire base in Vietnam, cut off and surrounded by NVA.  If memory serves correct he spent a great deal of time helping with the wounded, hauling supplies, building up defense works, and one memory stands out: dug in with troops under fire and passing around communion.  If there's a ring of truth to it, I would think this might describe a good chaplain at work?  Fr. Mulcahy also comes to mind as being a pretty true-to-nature character on MASH.  Art imitating life?


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## xena (18 Sep 2009)

Humphrey said:
			
		

> ... rather than the guy policing troop language while out in the field....



I can't dispute this guy's experince one iota.  But in my personal experience, I've never seen a Padre police anyones' language.  {Warning:  rabbit trail!}In fact, I've heard Padre's use some "colourful" language themselves (interestingly never anything remotely blasphemous, just a bit closer to the obscene end of things).  Which gets one contemplating the difference between blasphemy and obscenity, and thinking about how obscenity is completely relative.  We've all heard the stories about a recruit going home and accidentally asking his mother to "pass the f****ing butter".  That's because that paticular word is slightly less obscene to the average soldier in a military setting, than it is with nice little old ladies who have doilies on all the tables.

But that's a topic for another thread.  {Rabbit trail over.}

Yeah, I agree that Chaplains are another type of "unsung hero" that is absolutely necessary in the Forces, but there are lots of people who have no idea what they do.  Another example of the "quiet professional" perhaps.  There always there for you, and never have any sort of condemning attitude.  They're pretty cool that way.


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## dapaterson (18 Sep 2009)

I know of one Infantryman who was accepted into the University Training Plan for NCMs as an Infantry officer (civvy U), and after his second year called the career manager to inform him that he was changing his major to divinity, and was going to get ordained.  A remuster from Infantry to Chaplain followed in short order...


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## Roy Harding (18 Sep 2009)

xena said:
			
		

> I can't dispute this guy's experince one iota.  But in my personal experience, I've never seen a Padre police anyones' language. ...



I LEARNED some great curses from Chaplains!  

One of my favourite Padre stories involves being on exercise in the mid-eighties.  At that time, exercises were lengthy affairs, with complete tent cities being set up, including messes, kitchen, etcetera.  In the unit I was with at the time, it was "traditional" to have some hard-core porn playing on the TV in the Junior Ranks mess - pretty much 24/7.  On one exercise, the canteen queen forgot to bring the porn.  A few of us were sitting around moping about it, when in comes the Padre.  

"Is there anything you guys need?" says our resident Sky Pilot.

"We don't have any f**kin' porn, Padre" replies one of the long-faced ones.

That very evening, the Padre delivered a freakin' BOX full of it - pretty disgusting stuff, too (even by our standards).  We never asked where he got it, he never said.  His only stipulation was that we turn the sound down on the TV set when he came into the Mess.

That guy was excellent at liar's dice, too - took home more than one unsuspecting soldier's FOA.

THAT's a Padre.  And in my experience, that's a fairly normal portrait of one (perhaps with the exception of the express porn delivery - that was unusual).


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## Neolithium (18 Sep 2009)

I have a feeling handing out porn is a relatively rare thing but it does seem to convey something that each Chaplain takes very seriously: The morale of the Canadian Forces members that they serve with.  I have a feeling that their job is probably far tougher than one would expect out of any "regular" member of the clergy, considering the amount of stress, and issues (both personal, professional, moral) that they have to help put an individual at ease with.


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## gcclarke (18 Sep 2009)

Neolithium said:
			
		

> I have a feeling handing out porn is a relatively rare thing but it does seem to convey something that each Chaplain takes very seriously: The morale of the Canadian Forces members that they serve with.  I have a feeling that their job is probably far tougher than one would expect out of any "regular" member of the clergy, considering the amount of stress, and issues (both personal, professional, moral) that they have to help put an individual at ease with.



I have a feeling that padres handing out porn is a relatively rare thing because it's relatively rare for people to forget to bring their own.


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## Fatalize (18 Sep 2009)

I find it interesting that the CF still supports bronze age mythology superstitions. Why not just have general counselors for people?


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## Yrys (18 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that the CF still supports bronze age mythology superstitions. Why not just have general counselors for people?



If you remember that the C in CF is for Canadian, and you go look here,
you'll find your answer.


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## Kat Stevens (18 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that the CF still supports bronze age mythology superstitions. Why not just have general counselors for people?



Bill Maher fan, huh?


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## mysteriousmind (19 Sep 2009)

For wja tI have live with "padré", they are simply great, always ready to speak about anything with you, from chit-chat to deep questioning you might have. Our "padré" at our unit, knows every one, he always calls you by your first name.

They will never pressure you into anything you arent ready to go. Of course, if you listen carefully, you will know wre does their belives are. But always good for advice, always good to put you back on track. 

Ive serve a few at the clothing in Valcartier, and always great Fellow. They are great for the morale.


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## Fatalize (19 Sep 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Bill Maher fan, huh?



I don't even know who that is


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## Roy Harding (19 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> I don't even know who that is



Google is your friend:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher#Views_on_religion


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## Roy Harding (19 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that the CF still supports bronze age mythology superstitions. Why not just have general counselors for people?



Why hire "general counselors", when you get that function PLUS the religious aspect in the same package?

Frankly - even as an atheist - I have MUCH more time for Padres than I do for Social Workers who _attempt_ to serve a similar function.

The Padres (and civilian ministers) I've met seem to have a core belief or philosophy that they've arrived at - THEN they go get educated to explore that belief.

The Social Workers I've met seem to get an education in order to arrive at a belief system or philosophy - THEN they go practice it.

The one has a "calling" - the other, a "job".

And troops can tell the difference.


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## Fatalize (19 Sep 2009)

I'm fully aware of google, but it would be rather hard to be a fan of someone you've never heard of.

If anyone who questions religion is generalized to be a Bill Maher fan, then I guess I am.


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## Yrys (19 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> If anyone who questions religion is generalized to be a Bill Maher fan, then I guess I am.



I don't read the other post you have it this page as questioning religions, 
but as questioning the usefulness of padres in the CF, which is not the same...


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## Fatalize (19 Sep 2009)

Yrys said:
			
		

> I don't read the other post you have it this page as questioning religions,
> but as questioning the usefulness of padres in the CF, which is not the same...



Actually my very first post was in fact.. questioning religion. 

For me personally someone who has had his mind basically brainwashed to blindly believe in a faith, Is *NOT*the person I would run to for advice. 

There is no doubt in my mind that many people gain comfort and security from padres, I was just curious as to what the reasoning was behind it. And I'll leave it at that, judging at where this conversation is going.. religion is a touchy subject to people.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Sep 2009)

I myself have no religious affiliation whatsoever.  I don't feel the need to belittle and ridicule other peoples belief systems, whatever gets you through the next firefight is okay with me.  The Bill Maher ref was made because he's an ultra liberal intellectual elitist snob who goes out of his way to insult those who do believe, or rather don't think the way he thinks. See the film "Religulous" to see what I mean.  And, no, I'm not calling you an ultra liberal intellectual elitist snob, unless of course you are one.


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## Roy Harding (19 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> For me personally someone who has had his mind basically brainwashed to blindly believe in a faith, Is *NOT*the person I would run to for advice.
> 
> ...



For me personally, someone who has had his mind basically brainwashed to blindly NOT believe in a faith, is NOT the person I would run to for advice.

Your statement cuts both ways.  

I have no confidence in people who believe OR disbelieve anything _blindly_.  I have a LOT of time for folks who have thought the matter through, explored the options, and reached a conclusion which is comfortable for them, PERSONALLY.  

I've found that people who have gone through this exercise (also known as soul-searching) in a thorough manner are not people who question other's beliefs, at least not uninvited.  Having been through the process themselves - they can appreciate that others have done the same thing, but have simply reached different conclusions.

However - as you said, religion can be (doesn't have to be) a touchy subject.

To re-iterate (and expand upon) my original answer:  In my years of service, as an atheist, I came to understand that Chaplains are an integral part of the CF, and are usually appreciated by most other service members.  I also came to understand that, for reasons which I have only cursorily examined, Social Workers do not, and probably would not, enjoy the same level of appreciation.


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## Fusaki (19 Sep 2009)

> I find it interesting that the CF still supports bronze age mythology superstitions. Why not just have general counselors for people?



Dude, lose the chip.

You're making us atheists look bad.  When your brother's hurt'n and the Padre brings him peace you'll be glad they're around - regardless of your personal beliefs.


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## the 48th regulator (19 Sep 2009)

Bunch of Godless Heathens....

dileas

tess


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Sep 2009)

While some padres may be of the "hail fellow, well met" variety who mixes easily with soldiers and communicates with them through shared experience of military life, the quiet and gentle type can be a tower of strength when circumstances call for it.  Such was one padre of my acquaintance, whose actions I previously related in another thread.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> As one who also has little time for organized religion (_another ex-Irish Catholic refugee from the Rock_), I had little to do with chaplains during my time in the service with a few exceptions such as compulsory church parades or being on a course with a couple who turned out be very "social" in the mess.  As was said above there are good ones and some not so good (_in terms of quality of service and not their individual spirituality_),  but it is good to hear of the fine work done by them.
> 
> This thread has brought back memories of Rwanda in 1994 and the chaplain who deployed with us on OP PASSAGE.  Of all the people on that mission he is the one who stood out the most (_for me anyway_).  No, he didn't save my soul or bring me back into the arms of the Lord (_he wasn't a miracle worker_).  He probably didn't have much of a congregation for his weekly services, a photo I have of that time shows him saying mass for 5 or 6 fellow soldiers which would have been a typical crowd for him.  But, I do know that his talks with other soldiers were helpful for them in terms of their emotional or spiritual well being.  However, what I remember the most about him is the burying of the dead.  Little or no plans had been made for the disposition of the remains of those who passed while in our care; the assumption having been made that they would be turned over to their relatives or the local authorities.  However, few had relatives able to assume this task and the "local authorities" didn't care.  The first few burials (with the exception of the mass grave) were done by a few available personnel who did not have clinical duties.  It was a very sobering task that took a lot out of people.  The padre, though, took on this burden as things progressed and oversaw the internment of the deceased, the organization of the gravediggers (locals later hired for the job) and the care of the small cemetery that began adjacent to our medical facility.  For that he will always have my thanks and admiration.


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## vonGarvin (19 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that the CF still supports *bronze age * mythology superstitions. Why not just have general counselors for people?


For what it's worth, the bronze age ran from 3300 to 1200 (or so) BC.  I think this even pre-dates the Greeks' mythologies.  So, if you're going to slag a religion (or religions), then at least get your timelines right.


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## Fatalize (19 Sep 2009)

Midnight Rambler said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, the bronze age ran from 3300 to 1200 (or so) BC.  I think this even pre-dates the Greeks' mythologies.  So, if you're going to slag a religion (or religions), then at least get your timelines right.



3300-1200 was the middle eastern bronze age, different parts of the world evolved through the ages faster. 
It wasn't meant to be an extremely accurate statement. But somewhere between the Bronze and Iron age.

Moved to http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/89250.0.html


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## PMedMoe (19 Sep 2009)

We had a great Padre on my tour in Bosnia, wish I could remember his name.   :-\  He was Anglican and although I am not, I attended some of his services when he was in our camp.  Super nice guy, studied a lot of other religions so he was knowledgeable about them.

He was a reservist and I remember he had to turn in all his kit as soon as he got back from tour.  Seems he only brought one pair of Gortex socks but had been issued two.  I gave him mine so he could turn them both in and he mailed me his second pair.

Both Padres we had in Afghanistan were great too.  They were firm advocates that married couples on tour should have "conjugal" visits.   ;D


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## vonGarvin (19 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> It wasn't meant to be an extremely accurate statement. But somewhere between the Bronze and Iron age.


I agree that it wasn't meant to be an accurate statement at all.  It was meant as a deliberately inflammatory statement.  

My only point is this:


I have no point.  Except maybe to say that even though you may consider modern religion to be mythology, most Canadians don't, and since we (the Canadian Armed Forces) are meant to be a reflection of that society, then religious services are offered to members of the forces.  These services are delivered by chaplains of many faiths.  The difference between chaplains and civilian clergy is seen in how chaplains deliver non-religious services to members of the military.


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## mariomike (19 Sep 2009)

Humphrey said:
			
		

> Chaplaincy happens in different contexts in civilian culture as well as within the police forces in Canada.  I've certainly had opportunity to speak with chaplains in hospitals, and RCMP Chaplains over the years.  However, it really isn't quite the same as hearing responses from the people the chaplains will work with and care for.



Father Mychal F. Judge "administered last rites to some lying on the streets, then entered the lobby of the World Trade Center north tower where an emergency command post was organized. There he continued offering aid and prayers for the rescuers, the injured and dead."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mychal_F._Judge#World_Trade_Center.2C_September_11.2C_2001


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## muskrat89 (19 Sep 2009)

Fatalize - we get it. Congratulations - you are a hero to free thinkers everywhere.

Since you seem so well read, *read* the topic title: How are Chaplains perceived by other CF members?

If you are indeed a CF member, feel free to state your perception of Chaplains. Putting it in context by relating some experiences that shaped your perception might help us frame your point of view.

The topic is not "How do you feel about organized religion?". We like to govern our board based on rules of etiquette formed probably starting in the Victorian Age, for what its' worth.

Army.ca Staff


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## vonGarvin (19 Sep 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Father Mychal F. Judge "administered last rites to some lying on the streets, then entered the lobby of the World Trade Center north tower where an emergency command post was organized. There he continued offering aid and prayers for the rescuers, the injured and dead."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mychal_F._Judge#World_Trade_Center.2C_September_11.2C_2001


I also understand that his loss was felt greatly by the entire FDNY, and that he was listed as victim 1.  Just what I heard.


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## Neill McKay (20 Sep 2009)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Dude, lose the chip.
> 
> You're making us atheists look bad.  When your brother's hurt'n and the Padre brings him peace you'll be glad they're around - regardless of your personal beliefs.



I have to underline this as one of the best pieces of writing I've ever seen here.

I'm not religious either, but I do appreciate the comfort a chaplain can provide to the majority who are, and the other-than-religious services they provide to everyone.


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## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that the CF still supports bronze age mythology superstitions. Why not just have general counselors for people?


Apart from your cheap shot at both the dedicated religious staff who work very hard to help those in their charge (not to mention to those who believe), there ARE general counselors around - check here for more details.


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## TCBF (20 Sep 2009)

- Sometimes Padre's need to vent, too.  Imagine devoting your life to a Christian calling, only to be told that government policy forbids you to mention the words "Jesus" or "Christ" during a Ramp Ceremony.  Now, logic would dictate that the religious bent of the Ramp Ceremony be dictated by the religion on the I Discs of the KIA.  But, no, that is not government policy.

- The kicker is, we may be playing into the propaganda hands of our enemy.  The enemy like to paint us as Infidels who side with the Zionists.  If we leave Jesus Christ out of a Christian's Ramp Ceremony...  well, once you take Christ out of Christianity, you are left with, what?  Judaism, that's what.  So...  perhaps it ain't easy being a modern Padre in the CF.


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## combat_medic (20 Sep 2009)

As a CF Member, and an Atheist, I have an enormous amount of time for the padre corps. I have met dozens of padres in my travels, and have never once felt preached to, or any attempt at religious coercion of any kind. I don't think I've ever heard them mention the word "God" to me, outside of actual church services, in which they're very inclusive of all beliefs INCLUDING atheism. Whenever I have needed to speak to a padre, they are always extremely sympathetic, caring to a fault and devoted to the troops, and to their job. They are always willing to go above and beyond to help out the troops, and use their unique position well to help those that need it. 

I have a copy of "The God Delusion" on my bedside table right now, and Bill Maher's "Religulous" in my DVD collection, but would not hesitate for even a moment to speak with a padre when the need arose. I have dealt with the social workers in the CF and have never met the same kindness, caring, and genuine desire to help as I have when dealing with padres, and that transcends any petty differences of religious belief. They do their job, they get my respect, period.


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## Rifleman62 (21 Sep 2009)

From a historical viewpoint and the viewpoint of a chaplain.  Padre Horton was the well respected padre of The Royal Winnipeg Rifles. If this posting is too long/out of context, Mods please action.

D DAY, 6 June 1944, EXPERIENCES
BY PADRE ED HORTON

My first recollection of our immediate D Day preparations is standing in a field near Southampton getting rid of all the means of recognition – regimental badges and shoulder flashes etc.

Later we proceeded to embark.  It was Friday, June 2.  Our ship was a fine liner called the Langiby Castle. Our accommodations were good.  We had our meals in the Dining Saloon with tables covered with linen cloths and the ship’s stewards serving us.

One of those with whom I shared a cabin was a young lieutenant of a British Reece Unit.  He had dreams of driving through to Berlin on D + 1.  I often wondered what happened to him.  There was also a naval lieutenant sharing our cabin.  He was in charge of the navy lads who manned our landing craft.

According to regular procedure there was an officer called “Officer Commanding Troops” (O.C.Troops).  In our case it was a full colonel of the Welsh Guards.  He was a typical regular army officer with monocle and all.  He had held the same position on ships in earlier landings.

We anchored out in the stream and it was a bit rough.  My amusing picture of this officer was one in which he was climbing up over the side with the spray splashing over him and his monocle firmly fixed in front of his eye.

When I began to plan a church service for the troops he took a very keen and definite interest in all the details.  He told me the hymns I should have, among other instructions about the service.  When the time came we had a good service on deck with a full attendance.  I have a picture of this service.

There were strict rules about smoking.  A glowing cigarette and could be seen a great distance away.  Touring the ship one evening out O.C.Troops found some sailors smoking on deck.  This was definitely against orders.  Instead of ordering a non-commissioned officer of the navy to charge them he did it himself and had the sailors put in the brig.  The naval officer in charge of these lads who were manning our landing craft was furious.  To think that an army officer of the rank of colonel should put sailors in the brig on a ship!  Such a situation was outrageous, Queens Regulations were studied minutely.  It was a sticky situation for the sailors, as part of the landing force, were technically under command of the O.C. Troops; but they were on a ship.  It was finally settled by sentencing the guilty sailors to the time they had spent in the brig before the matter was settled.  The dignity and prerogative of all parties was satisfied.

We were to have landed on the Monday, June 5, but it was too rough.  We did not know where we were to land until the evening of June 5.  Whether we would land June 6 or not was uncertain until the last minute.  I have often though of General Eisenhower having to make the extremely difficult decision as to whether we should go in on the Tuesday.  I understand that if we hadn’t gone in that day the landing would have had to be put off for a month owing to the tides.  I have read of the difficulties of making this decision and the advice he sought, but in the end he had to make the momentous decision alone.

The day of the landing dawned bright and clear.  There was a strong wind and the sea was fairly rough.  We embarked in our landing craft which were on davits at the side of the ship like lifeboats.  They were much the size of lifeboats.  We were lowered into the sea and away we went for the shore.  What a magnificent sight – ships of all sorts and sizes, planes overhead.  As far as the eye could see the amazing armada moved towards the French coast.  I wonder how many of us realized the significance of this decisive moment in the world’s history.  Our men were calm.  There was no evidence of tension or fear.  A few were seasick, and we splashed by the spray.  Our particular landing was uneventful.  We jumped in up it our knees and waded ashore.  As we crossed the beach they began to fire at us.  I was in the second wave.  As we moved along it became evident to me that the white armband with a red cross on it, which was on my arm, was making me an easy mark, so I took it off.  I soon came upon one of our lads who I knew well laying on the beach badly wounded. We had been ordered not to stop to help the wounded as it would delay us too much. Others would follow whose duty it would be to care for the wounded.  I couldn’t help but stop for a few moments and give him what comfort I could.  Later he died.  I wrote to his wife and received a very lovely latter in answer to mine.

Once we had gone off the beach and among the houses and stone walls and trees we seemed fairly safe and we moved inland.  The first night was uneventful as far as I was concerned.

About the third day (8 Jun 44) we got into real trouble.  We were almost surrounded by Hitler Jugend Division.  In the night three of our companies were almost wiped out.  The Canadian Scottish put in a counter attack the next day.  Because of the rough sea they had not been able to land all the support units, and we expected the worst.  However it never came.  Later when I was in the Occupation Force I was told  by a British Intelligence Officer that the attack never came because the S.S. Troops were at loggerheads with the Wehrmacht, who would not give them the gas they needed to put in the attack.

In a few days tings settled down a bit.  The men were manning the slit trenches and on guard.  They were tired and soon fell asleep.  To fall asleep in the face of the enemy was a serious offence.  I was called up to see a young lad in a slit trench who wanted to see me.  He told me he had fallen asleep and had been charged.  He said the commanding officer had told him he would be shot for this offence.  He said, “I am only 16. I am too young to be shot”.  I told him I was sure the commanding officer had not said he would be shot.  What he had likely said was that he could be shot; but he insisted, so I said I would talk to the C.O. about him.  It turned out as I had suggested.  The C.O. had only said he could be shot.  However when I informed the C.O. that he was only 16 years old the C.O. said they would have to do something about that.  Within 24 hours he was taken out of the line and sent back to England.
     
I had been busy burying the men who had been killed.  My batman, Seager, was a great help to me in gathering the dead and digging the graves.  We had no equipment except shovels.  Our instructions were to find suitable places for burial and report the map references.  We were to bury as many together as we could.  We had no supply of crosses.  These came later when we got our jeep.  They supplied us with white wooden crosses then.  In the meantime Seager and I made the best rough crosses we could out of whatever wood we could find.

One day I was told a young soldier wanted to see me in one of the front line slit trenches.  I went up to see him and found him very angry with me.  He said I buried his Jewish pal and put a cross over his grave.  He was a Jew, too, and he said this was the most insulting thing I could have done to his friend.  I told him I was sorry.  There was no intention of insulting his dead comrade.  It was really more of a marker than a religious symbol, and I asked him what he thought I should have done.  He said I should have placed a Star of David over his grave.  I told him I had no way of making Stars of David.  If he objected to a cross the only thing I could do was place a straight stick over the grave.  He said that would be better than a cross.  Within a couple of days I was called on to bury this poor lad.  I saw to it that he did not have a cross, but a straight stick.

As Padres we were provided with an Order of Burial Service for Protestants, Roman Catholics and Jews.  If we could get a Padre whose religious affiliation was different to our own, but the same as the deceased we tried to have such a one perform the burial, but in the heat of battle this was not easy to do.  Then we used the Service prescribed for the religious affiliation of the person we were burying.  I never met a Jewish Padre until I was in the Army of Occupation in Germany.  The rule was that should be a Padre for every 1000 members of a Christian Protestant denomination and one for every 500 Roman Catholics.

One of the sad duties of the Padre was to wander over the battle area after the battle had moved on and search for the dead.  In those early days battles were fought through the Normandy grain fields.  Many a lad I found lying in a grain field.  After a day of this sad activity the boys would come up to me and ask if I had found any trace of their brother, or cousin or special pal.  After thorough searching if no trace of a particular fellow was found we presumed he had been taken prisoner.

In our regiment were 3 brothers.  Two were often seen together, but the third seemed to be a lone wolf.  I rarely saw him with either of his brothers.  He and one brother were missing.  The remaining brother met me every time I returned from a search.  Then as I wandered through the grain fields I came upon these two brothers, together.  They were in a crawling position and must have been killed together instantly.  It was a comfort to me to find the lone wolf brother not separated from one brother in death.

One day some of our stretcher bearers were shot at when picking up wounded and carrying them on stretchers to the Regimental Aid Post.  Our boys were very angry and swore what they would do to the next prisoner they captured.  A while later a prisoner was brought in and I wondered what would happen.  He was wounded:  I watched as one of our boys gave him a cigarette and lit it for him.  When it came to individual personal contacts it was hard to carry out threats made in anger, and justified anger, against the enemy in general.

As the Padre I considered the regiment my congregation, and it was my duty and privilege to minister to them in whatever way I found open to me, no matter who they were or what kind of people they were.  They were all God’s children and He loved them:  I always felt I should be with them to share whatever they had to put up with.  One thing I found I could do was take them the mail to them wherever they were.  I could always find a way to get to them where they were, and mail from home meant a very great deal to them.  It was a great morale builder.  The authorities were very good about getting the mail up front.

I always travelled with the Regimental Aid Post.  There I could try to comfort the wounded as they were brought in and do any little errands etc. they would like done.  I was provided with a jeep equipped with a frame so that I could carry three stretchers.  At times I had the privilege of going out and bringing in the wounded.

During our years in England I never favoured regular church parades.  There were official and special occasions when they were in order, but ordinarily I felt it was much better to have voluntary services.  Our Commanding Officer supported me in this.  The result was that attendances at services were not large.  Very few attended Communion Services.  We were supplied with a Communion Set which I had with me always.  The first opportunity I had to hold a service after we landed was when we had a short rest.  I arranged a service in the open under the trees.  All the boys were there.  After the first part of the service I announced a Communion Service.  I turned to prepare for it.  Not a man moved.  I thought they had not understood, so I announced it a second time.  Still no movement.  Then I realized they all wanted to take communion.

One of the very difficult tasks of the Padre was writing to the next of kin of those who were killed.  When the regiment went into a rest period I found myself very busy trying to catch up with this correspondence.  I tried to tell those poor fathers and mothers and wives what I could, that might give them comfort.

I believe our Canadian boys were the best soldiers of all.  They were brave, they were cheerful, they were honest, they were resourceful, they were loyal, and they were sensitive.  Their attitude when they attended a grave side service always impressed me.  They were sad, but they were realistic.  They presented a noble bearing.

During those early days and on through the whole campaign the lieutenants suffered the worst casualties in proportion to their numbers.  One day they brought the body of a young lieutenant in.  They said he had gone into his last action saying “It will be my turn this time”.  Most of his fellow officers had already been killed or wounded.  An attitude of fatalism was not hard to develop.  Sometimes there was evidence of senses of religious favouritism.  Once when we were moving up two or three fellows argued mildly about who should march beside me.  They thought it would be a favoured, and possibly safe, spot because God would give me special protection!  As a matter of fact God does not play favourites.  I did hear once, that for their number Padres suffered higher casualties than any other unit.  I don’t know whether that is true.

A while before D-Day the Padres of the 3rd. Division were sent to a day’s course on finger-printing. We received some good natured kidding about that, but it was worthwhile.  The theory was that if we found bodies that could not be identified we could take the finger prints and thus prove their identity.  Due to the number of reinforcements coming into our regiments, and the way they were scattered in action we could not know them all.  When we were on the Schete we three Protestant Padres of the 7th. Brigade found a body we could not identify.  We took his fingerprints with the equipment we had been given and sent it in.  Later we were commended for the job we had done and told they were able to identify the man.  His identifications had been burned.  Knowing how next-of-kin suffer when all the news they ever have is: “Missing, believed killed” we felt it was a worthwhile idea that proved its value.  Later when in the Occupation Force in Germany I had occasion to use my fingerprinting equipment again when a man was drowned, and had no identification.


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## ajp (21 Sep 2009)

I too am not a religeous man, BUT...

I remember and participated at mess dinners where any Diner could stand during the Padre's march as a show of respect.

As BDO at a Base I have called the Padre's on may occaisions (especially during EXTRA's) to get advice or to pass on info of members in need of the Padre's services.  Everything from death in the family to emergency cash.  


I always open my door to any Padre when I see them, and have numerous padres I think of as friends, male, female and of numerous available religeons.  Reserve and Regs.  Some people on here know of the 8CH Padre who is tough and nails and drinks as hard as the next man, and swears on occaision.  I am sure there are stories.

I once referred to myself as a non practicing Catholic to a Padre who responded..."Oh...so you area a bad person!?"  I now say not participant in services.


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## Shec (21 Sep 2009)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Why hire "general counselors", when you get that function PLUS the religious aspect in the same package?
> 
> Frankly - even as an atheist - I have MUCH more time for Padres than I do for Social Workers who _attempt_ to serve a similar function.
> 
> ...



As I understand it candidates for the prerequiste degree in Divinity receive some sort of overview of all faiths. Furthermore, there is the CF's Religions in Canada guide.  A Chaplain, regardless of denomination, addresses the spiritual dimension that resides in anybody who believes in a "supreme being" with a sense of empathy that a clinician such as social worker may not be able to convey.  

As one who is not a Christian but has had occasion to experience 2 Chaplains of other faiths (once as a driver for one too) these gentlemen are just that.  Humble and sincere "Gentlemen" who treated me with the utmost courtesy and respect and of whom I had no doubt would minister to my needs if called upon and without prosleytizing.


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## Teflon (21 Sep 2009)

I am not religeous in the normal sense, in that it is I don't feel the need to have an organization direct me in my spirituality and I don't put much value in the written works of men claiming to be the accual words of God and prefer to have my way of conecting with my God but I have found with very few exceptions that Padres are an irreplaceable asset to any military organization. As stated before on this thread their duties are far more reaching then just religeous and often move into the areas of social worker and confidant.  I have seen them toil with the troops and share hardship and danger while always holding that solid understanding that all of "flock" doesn't always share their perticular view of the religeous plane. I have seen them provide strength and comfort to even the most outspoken "non-believer" in their time of need without ever preaching a verse.  I for one would never consider a good padre as a waste of a posn on any mission / task that takes our people far from home and far from our own.


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## PMedMoe (21 Sep 2009)

Fatalize said:
			
		

> Why not just have general counselors for people?



One main problem I would see with general counselors (i.e. Social Workers) is that a majority of them are civilian and would not be available to personnel on deployment, whereas, the Padres always are.


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## medaid (21 Sep 2009)

Chaplains are good with me... I've met 3 chaplains all of different denominations and they were ALL upstanding gents. One of them even has at time taken some 'holy' water with the troops, and is right along side of them at times when work is being carried out. 

I have the utmost respect for the chaplaincy, and those who decided to take up a uniform and march alongside their flock. 

Moe I have met a social worker in uniform. He was an Lt and performing the duties as he would if he worked civi side. I cant' for the life of me remember where he's based out of now...


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## ajp (21 Sep 2009)

I notice everyone mentiond Gents as Padres, but I know of two ladies I have dealt with, on one tour, and they were as effective as any Padre I have known.


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## 1feral1 (21 Sep 2009)

From an Aussie prospective.

Over the years, I have always found Padres refreshing and good value. Some full of dirty jokes, and all of them always a good sense of humour.

I remember one day at one of our OPs in our FOB, after a near by SVBIED, he seen some of the lads posing for a pic with the mushroom cloud still in the background, and then whipped out his cam, and had one of us take a pic of him infront of the cloud too. Crazy times. 

On my tour, we even had our Padre go out on a patrol (of course not in a shooting role, ha!) once. He would come out from JTFHQ at Victory once a week to 'check' on his boys.

The padre was there for our Lads with problems of all natures, and was someone for them to talk to about anything.

There will always be Padres in the Army.

OWDU


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## PMedMoe (21 Sep 2009)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Moe I have met a social worker in uniform. He was an Lt and performing the duties as he would if he worked civi side. I cant' for the life of me remember where he's based out of now...



I know there are social workers in uniform.  I said the _majority_ of them seem to be civilian, at least, they are at my unit.



			
				ajp said:
			
		

> I notice everyone mentiond Gents as Padres, but I know of two ladies I have dealt with, on one tour, and they were as effective as any Padre I have known.



Yes, there are several women in the Chaplain trade.  I guess they'd be Madres.


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## kratz (21 Sep 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Yes, there are several women in the Chaplain trade.  I guess they'd be Madres.



and the top CF Command Chaplin would be the Grandpadre.     :nod:


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## medaid (21 Sep 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I know there are social workers in uniform.  I said the _majority_ of them seem to be civilian, at least, they are at my unit.



Gotcha!


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## catalyst (21 Sep 2009)

kratz said:
			
		

> and the top CF Command Chaplin would be the Grandpadre.     :nod:



I met him at KAF, he's a nice guy. 

One day I show up for the am shift and whose there? the Padre, he decided he wanted to work at timmies with us. So he made doubld doubles, and singles, and served donuts...............etc. He worked better than a few of my co-workers and it was fun working with him.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Sep 2009)

Padre's take everything that's good about religion and leave out all the bullshit and crap.

I hate religion, I'd like to see it banned. Yet I'll go out of my way to listen to a padre, their very spiritual and grounded.


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