# Where do the empty mags go?



## DG-41 (5 Mar 2007)

Quick question for those In The Know:

You're in a firefight, in theatre. You empty a magazine, and change it out for a full one. Where does the empty one go?

"Back in your TacVest" is the range solution, not the Real World solution - those are precious seconds wasted.

What is current approved practice?

DG


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## mudrecceman (5 Mar 2007)

RecceDG,

I am not even Army anymore but...I think your answer may be...dump pouches.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/54844.0.html


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## Yrys (5 Mar 2007)

WOW, 

an amazing analyse of the 2 pouchs!

I'm usually staying in my lane, (civy here), but got some questions if someone 
doesn't mind answering them...

Why do you have to retrieve the mags?
Is there an amry issue pouch?
What colours are TW AR and OD?


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## Inch (5 Mar 2007)

Yrys said:
			
		

> WOW,
> 
> an amazing analyse of the 2 pouchs!
> 
> ...



The mags you're issued are the only ones you've got, if you drop them on the ground and leave them, you've got nothing to load your ammo into. They don't come preloaded like in the movies.  

TW is Temperate Weather and AR is Arid Region, both used when referring to the specific colour of Canadian Disruptive Pattern (CADPAT). OD is short for Olive Drab, plain old army green if you will.


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## MJP (5 Mar 2007)

You retrieve magazines to rebomb them up after a fight.  You usually have lots of extra preloaded ones in your vehicle, but if your light that luxury isn't there.  That and a section of troops drooping all their mags cuts into your stash quite quickly.  There are time when you will drop them in close contact just to get fire down range faster.


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## 1feral1 (5 Mar 2007)

We use drop pouches, which save time to dump the empty mags. This pouches uses the MOLLE system, and fits happily between mag pouches on the front of the ECBA issued.

In a 'panic' here, I've been known to dump them in a cargo pocket in my pants. If firing from a LAV while on the trot, one can dump his mag onto the floor (from the hatch), and have others on standby, pre-placed up top, along with other useful tools. The ones on the floor of the LAV can be bombed up by someone down below who's doing nothing but sitting there on those nice cushy padded bench seats.

We don't leave mags behind like on Combat with SGT Saunders dumping Thompson mags on every episode. Been watching the whole series on pirated DVDs of course  ;D

Cheers from Baghdaddy,


Wes


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## jbeach95 (5 Mar 2007)

Inch said:
			
		

> TW is Temperate Weather and AR is Arid Region, both used when referring to the specific colour of Canadian Disruptive Pattern (CADPAT). OD is short for Olive Drab, plain old army green if you will.



The "TW" in CADPAT (TW) is "Temperate Woodland."


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## mudrecceman (5 Mar 2007)

JDB said:
			
		

> The "TW" in CADPAT (TW) is "Temperate Woodland."



Must be the fuel vapours?

 ;D


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## Inch (5 Mar 2007)

JDB said:
			
		

> The "TW" in CADPAT (TW) is "Temperate Woodland."



My bad.


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## KevinB (6 Mar 2007)

Retaining empty mags is a luxury.

Reloads are broken down into two types -- Tactical and Emergency.

Emergency Mag Changes: conducted under fire when you run out of ammo -- bolt locked back.
  1) Drop empty - at the same time your weak side hand is bringing a new mag up.
  2) Insert mag - push pull and Hit bolt catch with the weak hand
  3) Keep shooting

Tactical Mag Changes: not immediately underfire - some ammo left in mag - but you think a change is a good idea.
   1) weak hand bring up new mag and place it at a 90 to the old mag





   2) remove old mag - rotate hand and place new mag on - push and pull




 some guys like to run the bolt to ensure they still have a round in the chamber (and lose it if there was one) -- other press check.
   3) retain partial mag in dump pouch.



* ONLY FULL MAGS GO BACK INTO POUCHES
Partials go in the dumper.


** IF you have time - empties can be retained- either by having a buddy jam them in your day pack or you can put them in a pocket.
 dont use the dumper - since if you need a mag out of the dumper - and you get an empty yoru screwed...


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## The Bread Guy (6 Mar 2007)

I guess I really *AM* aging myself when I say I can remember being told, "if in doubt, throw empty mags down your shirt".

Good info - thanks!


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## KevinB (6 Mar 2007)

Tony -- that worked fine prior to the univeral adoption of body armour.
Which really only kicked in with the CF in the last few years.


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## HollywoodHitman (7 Mar 2007)

There is a magical land.....far, far away.......where sunshine, flowers and a never ending supply of cleaning supplies exist. This is the fabled land, where magazines, expended in battle, go. This wonderful land, known in some circles/religions known as "THE DUMP POUCH" provides everything that the discerning magazine hopes for when expended. The tranquility of this realm which some may compare to the womb, provides security and a safe place for the endangered empty magazine to go....the hope, the desire of the magazine to once more be used by it's master, overpowering in it's origins is hard to explain. The simple instinctive desire of the magazine, to hold the golden brass and copper of THE round which takes the life of the heathen enemy...The xanadu, the paradise of the modern round....The magazine and it's place of re-birth, the dump pouch.....the place where used magazines go, hoping for a chance at re-use......

I will not leave my current job for one of story telling or writing fable and lore.....

Cheers,

HH


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## seamus (7 Mar 2007)

The cargo pouch on your pants is the only spot you really have to put empty mags in heavy exchanges. The reason for this is it is an easily reached in a time restricted world. I had a drop pouch but it was too hard and time consuming to use. Plus the drop pouch is just extra crap you don't need going into combat.


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## GK .Dundas (7 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Tony -- that worked fine prior to the univeral adoption of body armour.
> Which really only kicked in with the CF in the last few years.


     That and the fact that they now issue more then two magazines. I can still remember a Warrent wandering around looking quite confused and muttering "Why would anyone need more then two magazines?"(pre C-7)


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## TheHead (7 Mar 2007)

Storing them safely away is the typical range standard.    

During firefights in Afghanistan I saw a lot of mags laying on the ground


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## Strike (7 Mar 2007)

One would argue that you should train as you fight.  IOW, when running let's say the 9mm serial, why put the mags away when you can just as easily go back and get them after the serial?  It also helps in muscle memory.  Guess it all depends on what type of shooting you are doing.

There are more than a few stories of cops dying because they took the time to put away their mags ('cause that's how they did it in the range and it became habit) and got shot in the process.


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## KevinB (7 Mar 2007)

Strike -- I am with you --
  ALL training should be geared to provide positive muscle memory.


With the BHP mag safety - they dont always eject empty mags.


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## Avor (7 Mar 2007)

Strike said:
			
		

> One would argue that you should train as you fight.  IOW, when running let's say the 9mm serial, why put the mags away when you can just as easily go back and get them after the serial?  It also helps in muscle memory.  Guess it all depends on what type of shooting you are doing.
> 
> There are more than a few stories of cops dying because they took the time to put away their mags ('cause that's how they did it in the range and it became habit) and got shot in the process.



I am the master of purposeful bad habbits, just so I dont die like that.

During our FTX 2, the last thing that happened to us was an assualt on the FOB. I took up my position and let at it. But I did things I wasn't trained to do,

- I left my pockets open, so I get at things, put things away, like gloves, mags and candy much faster
- I droped my mags beside me so I could reload as fast as I could, I just pick them up later
- I swear I was the only person who got down, disturbing my fireing position when re-laoding


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## RecceByForce (14 Mar 2007)

Recently while doing gunfighter training we just dropped empty mags on the ground using the mag release. In a close contact every second counts so I would rather drop the mag then spend even one second fumbling around with it. Once you consolidate you can send someone back to round up the mags.


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## westie47 (14 Mar 2007)

That's why there are Emergency Reolads and Tactical Reloads.....You choose which one you use, when.


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## Armymedic (15 Mar 2007)

Not often I get a chance to correct or improve wpns drills shown by I6, so I will take this opportunity. My suggestions are in bold. 

Also, retaining your own mags may be a luxury, but if you are passing over someone else's empty on the ground, and have time, you should pick it up.



			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Retaining empty mags is a luxury.
> 
> Reloads are broken down into two types -- Tactical and Emergency.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (15 Mar 2007)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> That and the fact that they now issue more then two magazines. I can still remember a Warrent wandering around looking quite confused and muttering "Why would anyone need more then two magazines?"(pre C-7)



Ah, from the same era, no doubt, as the storesman who says, "you don't need more than two pairs of socks - wear one, wash the other", right?


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## geo (15 Mar 2007)

.... and then there were the "disposable" plastic mags we were expected to use forever


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## MJP (15 Mar 2007)

SMMT,

The standard for magazine changes under emergency situations for deployed troops is what they are taught on the gunfighter program.  That's not to say it is done each and every time that they change a magazine but that they have the requisite muscle memory and practice to quickly and accurately change magazines in what could be split second life or death situations.

Just some background so you all don't think I'm talking out my @ss.  I have taken the gunfighter program and I was taught how to teach it by the 3 VP soldier that designed it.  I'm not a shooting guru nor will I ever claim to be one.  However I do know what I'm taught and what I teach.  There are other smaller units in the CF that probably do allot more shooting and good on them.  This program is for "deploying outside the wire" soldiers of all trades.  Hence it is simple, and intuitive.  I6's drill are very close to the mark on how the drill goes.

Emergency Mag Changes: conducted under fire when you run out of ammo -- bolt locked back.
1) press mag release button, while simultaneously dropping to your knees.  As you fall and press the mag release you are stripping the mag out of the housing and continuing the arm motion towards your next mag and grabbing it1
2) Insert mag and with open hand smash your bolt catch so the bolt will go forward.2
3) re aim from the knees and keep shooting until enemy is down.


1- You are falling to your knees 1) to present a smaller target especially if you are in a close quarter battle, 2) so if required your fireteam partner can move up or shoot over you to take out threats.  Ideally even if you aren't in a close quarter battle you still duck behind some cover while changing magazines.  That said the best cover you can give yourself is outgoing fire and if the enemy is close you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.

2-  You use the open hand vice one finger or pulling on the charging handle as during combat you lose most of your fine motor control.  It is much easier to smash something with your entire hand then it is to try and push it with one or two fingers while under fire.  Same thing with trying to cock your rifle to disengage the bolt catch.  


Speed is what matters.  Gunfighters strips away all the useless extraneous movements and makes you able to return fire accurately and quickly enough to neutralize the enemy before he can get you or your buddies.


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## HItorMiss (15 Mar 2007)

I personally found that the dump pouch was the way to go. No vest or rig is designed to put your mags back in fast only pull then out fast. know I never was engaged in house clearing operation but I have done the gunfighter program. I Agree with the dropping the mag in a building but not so much in a prolonged outdoors engagement where your going to move much farther then you ever would in a building. I take my empty mags with me and the best easiest quickest place was to put them in my dump pouch. 

Now again the dump pouch is a personal choice some people don't like it or find it cumbersome, however to most people I always suggested they try it out and see because they might find it to be that combat multiplier that makes a difference.

From my personal experience I will always have one with me when I go into a fight. But that is just me.


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## KevinB (15 Mar 2007)

SMMT -- Larry Vickers is going to wrap your knuckles on the running the charging handle.    
  Some of the AWG guys where doing that and he "corrected" them

That said -- I know some instructors prefer that method.

Roger on the rotation correction -- I was hoping the pic explained that..

Cheers


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## edgar (15 Mar 2007)

Even as a no-hook private I figured out that you wouldn't want to 'fiddle' with your mag pouches to put something away while being shot at. I used to throw mags down my shirt but even that is a waste of time. It only prevents going back to pick up your mags which may or may not be a problem you need to solve in the real world. 

I saw the same issue with speedloaders when learning the pistol with an armoured transport company. (They still have six-shooters the poor things). My instructor learned from the factory reps and analyzing all the robberies and police gunfights for years. We heard the story about the California Highway Patrolmen who were found shot to death with brass in their pockets, because they had an anal instructor who didn't like brass on the floor. 

It is not even accurate to say that you throw the speedloader on the ground. That would be wasted motion. You just open your hand and gravity takes it away for you. What happens is that having fulfilled its function, the object simply leaves your mind, because you have other things to think about. The most common command on the range was "pick up your speedloaders". I think "sling your rifles, go back and get your empty mags" should be commonly heard on the rifle range right from day one. You can always go back and salvage magazines if you are not dead.


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## KevinB (15 Mar 2007)

You can't always guarantee you can get your mags.
  AT THAT particular moment of time you have to make the choice -on the method of reload you use.
    - If your under cover - tac reload - or even if your empty retain the mag.

Religioously following ANY certain set method will give you muscle memory which may or may not be applicable to the job at hand -- thus your best served by varied and dynamic training.


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## Armymedic (15 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> SMMT -- Larry Vickers is going to wrap your knuckles on the running the charging handle.
> Some of the AWG guys where doing that and he "corrected" them
> 
> That said -- I know some instructors prefer that method.
> ...


Ack, one instructor's way, another shooters prefernce...
As a lefty, I find it much easier to hit that huge cocking handle I can see than trying to finger a little button on the other side of the weapon


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## HItorMiss (16 Mar 2007)

Personaly for me when gross motor skills take over I have a mantra....


cocking handle cocking handle cocking handle!!!!!

smashing away at that little button is a waste of time. Now that is under the emergency reload situ, if you have the time might as well not waste a round.


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## Armymedic (16 Mar 2007)

Tac reloads do not require a cock, just replace the mag.

Emerg reloads you should not lose a round as your gun is empty.

the third type is a speed reload where you dump the partial on the ground and reload a full mag. Its what you do when you need more rounds RFN...and have no time or cover to do a tac reload. This reload should only be used in exception.


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## HItorMiss (16 Mar 2007)

My Bad Doc,

I was think bolt fully to the rear, why hit the little button and smash around at the side of the weapon when the cocking handle is there and easier to get at.

Your absolutely right you will not lose a round, and during a tac reload the round stays chambered as you do no have to cock the already readied weapon.

My bad on the vague and misleading discription above, my weapons instructor would be shamed isn't that right Popurhedoff


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## edgar (16 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> ... AT THAT particular moment of time you have to make the choice ...



That's my point, eh? Making a choice takes time, and if you have that time you can pick up your mags and put them away. What I am saying is train for the worse case first.



			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Religioously following ANY certain set method will give you muscle memory which may or may not be applicable to the job at hand -- thus your best served by varied and dynamic training.



eggzackly - There should probably be a distinction drawn between training you, and training me. I never been shot at. Near, I guess, but not _at_. You can probably keep a cool head. I'm actually planning to shit my pants and gibber. That might not happen, but If I allow for it in the plan, it won't be a distraction. I'll do the tactical reloads when I think it a good idea. The key is to be able to think. 

This has been argued out in the civvy world too here's the first example I pulled off google- http://www.policeone.com/writers/columnists/POSA/articles/122347/


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## KevinB (16 Mar 2007)

HOM -- [as Kevin steps up on the soapbox]
   I dont believe the bolt catch to be a fine motor skill
You can slap it with you open hand  - Using a redi-mag and BCE take a bit more - but I still beleive it to be a gross motor function.


SMMT -- the new KAC build TSWG lowers have an ambi bolt release for that reason -- of course they are only going to two US units...



E -- roger your last -- I guess I misread your point.


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## HItorMiss (16 Mar 2007)

I6- I don't know I have found myself on ranges whith a stress factor smacking my hand on the rifle trying to get the bolt to ram foreward. Mow that is me of course personaly I just garb the handle and  viola it pops foreward and the the rest o the stoppage is soon complete when rounds go downrage. I find it easier and faster

.


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## NL_engineer (16 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> HOM -- [as Kevin steps up on the soapbox]
> I dont believe the bolt catch to be a fine motor skill
> You can slap it with you open hand  - Using a redi-mag and BCE take a bit more - but I still beleive it to be a gross motor function.



I myself find it easier to slap the bolt catch.  At worst you have to give it a second hit, but that only happend to me in the winter  :threat:.


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## dan005e (20 Mar 2007)

In regards to the Gunfighter program, who exactly gets to go through it?

Is it a PPCLI only thing or will it be going to the other two infantry Regiments or will it become an Army-wide type thing?

Just curious as it sounds like a pretty interesting shooting package.


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## Donut (20 Mar 2007)

Ref Gunfighter, I shouldn't comment on other trades (but I will  :nana, but all medics for 1-08 are scehduled to complete this.

If the HSS Coys are doing it, I suspect everyone else outside the wire will do it, too.


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## HItorMiss (20 Mar 2007)

The Gunfighter Package was devised by I believe DHTC members to to replace the Shoot to live packag that was the standard for te CF. It is now taught by members who have done the CQC package to thier home units.


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## KevinB (20 Mar 2007)

UOIC not CQC - the rest is close enough for gov't work.  MarkC posted the definitive history of GunFighter elsewhere here --- maybe he will repost.


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## HItorMiss (20 Mar 2007)

Ugh wrong accroym....I meant Urban Ops Instructor but anyway yeah that course there LOL


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## geo (20 Mar 2007)

dan005e said:
			
		

> In regards to the Gunfighter program, who exactly gets to go through it?
> 
> Is it a PPCLI only thing or will it be going to the other two infantry Regiments or will it become an Army-wide type thing?
> 
> Just curious as it sounds like a pretty interesting shooting package.


(in an outrageously exagerated franglo accent "mais oui, we have the gunfighter thing in the R22R)


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## blacktriangle (13 May 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Personaly for me when gross motor skills take over I have a mantra....
> 
> 
> cocking handle cocking handle cocking handle!!!!!
> ...



So essentially you carry out a normal cocking motion on the rifle, and it works the same with an empty mag stoppage as the bolt catch? I've only been taught the normal way, but am left handed...so it's awkward to hit the bolt catch. Am I likely to catch flak for using the cocking handle in a reload?


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## HItorMiss (14 May 2007)

As a Pte (R) you should carry out the drills as taught.

However when you are taught the Gun Fighter program you will learn the drills as I vaguely explained.


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## KevinB (15 May 2007)

FWIW you can argue tactics till your blue in the face - one technique is not necessarily anymore right than another as long as they work -- the same goes with weapons drills.

The idea is to get your rifle/carbine (or pistol whatever) back running as quick as you can - as well as ensuring that you can comminicate to your teammembers you have an "issue" and that your sector is covered while you cannot.

I got asked some comments on the "beer can grip" method 
  I took some pics -- sorry they suck 
The only time I use this method is reloading from my redimag -- as I find it a lot easier (for me) to use the index method for reloads from my mag pouches.
   GunFighter was teaching beercan -- and I beleive its due to the MP-5 skillset as I beer can with an MP-5 -- but index on the M4/C8

Beer can is very good for push pull insertion 
Why call it beer can - well a picture is worth a thousand words






Mag pushed up into mag well and locked home





Mag pulled down to ensure its locked (note my Gemtech can in the background on my rifle rack)





Thumb engages bolt catch





Keep in mind I use a redimag (and my M4 is a in-theatre conversion to auto)





My IFF flag and closeup of the GemTech HALO


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## The Rifleman (16 May 2007)

in the British Army the DS (Directing Staff) solution is put them back in your ammo pouches. Fine on the ranges, but in reality it is time consuming and sometimes restrictive (plus you get charged for losing a mag!).

In reality you shove any used mags down the front of your smock and hope your webbing belt is done up nice & tight to stop them falling out. Never lost a mag this way.


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## KevinB (16 May 2007)

That was fine in the pre plate era.


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## JimmyPeeOn (23 Aug 2007)

I-6, what is the purpose of the gem tech halo and what type of sight is that?



Cheers,
Andrew


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## bilton090 (6 Oct 2007)

Putting empty mags down your shirt will not work, you are wearing a frag vest and TV. If you can get a mag in your shirt you are not wearing your frag vest right. What I used outside the wire ( which was the hole 6 months ), Was a dump pouch,my second round in the mag was tracer so after chambering a round on the first mag,you could remove the mag to see if a round was chambered, and my second last round was tracer so I dropped the mag after it, and replaced the mag, NO re cocking,NO F-ing around, fastest way to get more rounds down range.
     You shoud be firing on the range the same way you fight !, AND WITH ALL YOU KIT ON !


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## geo (6 Oct 2007)

Bilton,
I think the rifleman's comments were rather dated.  I know I did exactly as he said... way back when, prior to TVs and balistic plates..  Dump pouches have rightly become the norm.... now if they could just issue one for said purpose.


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## bilton090 (6 Oct 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Bilton,
> I think the rifleman's comments were rather dated.  I know I did exactly as he said... way back when, prior to TVs and ballistic plates..  Dump pouches have rightly become the norm.... now if they could just issue one for said purpose.


             Geo I know that it was dated, but all the time I was with the Airborne ( 83-88 ) I used the side pockets of my pants.
        I just what to make sure the new guys don't start a bad habit !, and for 40-50 bucks & the time saved might save yours or your buddy's life.


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## geo (6 Oct 2007)

too true my friend.

I found the mags in the cargo pockets would bang around too much.  between the cinch cord at the waist of the shirt and the H harness on the webbing, the mags would sit firmly up top.... wasn't any worse than wearing those old C2 bras


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## christer (1 Dec 2007)

I thought you just dumped them down your shirt if you were in a real pinch for time??


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## MikeL (1 Dec 2007)

christer said:
			
		

> I thought you just dumped them down your shirt if you were in a real pinch for time??



Did you not read any of the above posts??  When wearing body armour, etc you can not dump mags down your shirt.


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## DirtyDog (1 Dec 2007)

bilton090 said:
			
		

> ....my second round in the mag was tracer so after chambering a round on the first mag,you could remove the mag to see if a round was chambered,


Is a press check not simpler?


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## Franko (1 Dec 2007)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Is a press check not simpler?



Yes it is.

christer, please do some research to the topic. You just dump them in a pinch.

Regards


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## boehm (1 Dec 2007)

I'm curious, could someone please explain what a press check is?


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## MikeL (1 Dec 2007)

When you have an even number of rounds left in the magazine the top bullet is on the right side of the mag, an uneven number the top bullet is on the left.  After load a mag an than you c*ck your rifle remove the mag an see which one the top bullet is. If the top bullet is on the left side you know you chambered a round.

You can also pull back the cocking handle slightly an look into the chamber.

If you ever get a chance to do the PWT4 Gunfighter program you will be taught this an many other drills.


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## Roy Harding (1 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> too true my friend.
> 
> I found the mags in the cargo pockets would bang around too much.  between the cinch cord at the waist of the shirt and the H harness on the webbing, the mags would sit firmly up top.... wasn't any worse than wearing those old C2 bras



You have a knack for bringing up painful memories.  I was a C2 Gunner a long time ago, in a galaxy far away - naturally I was the smallest guy in my section (and the Sect Comd hated me  :)  - go figure.


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## geo (2 Dec 2007)

He hated you?... then yiou woulda been the RADOP and GPMG gunner


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## Steel Badger (2 Dec 2007)

Or No's 1 AND 2 on the C5


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## Roy Harding (2 Dec 2007)

OK, OK - but the SOB still hated me.  

Of course, I may have been hateful at the time!


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## KevinB (2 Dec 2007)

JimmyPeOn said:
			
		

> I-6, what is the purpose of the gem tech halo and what type of sight is that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed this earlier

Sight is a Schmitt and Bender Short Dot 1.1-4x variable -- GemTech HALO is for overwatch roles where being discrete helps...


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## bilton090 (7 Dec 2007)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> When you have an even number of rounds left in the magazine the top bullet is on the right side of the mag, an uneven number the top bullet is on the left.  After load a mag an than you c*ck your rifle remove the mag an see which one the top bullet is. If the top bullet is on the left side you know you chambered a round.
> 
> You can also pull back the cocking handle slightly an look into the chamber.
> 
> If you ever get a chance to do the PWT4 Gunfighter program you will be taught this an many other drills.


          

 Still like the 2nd round a tracer, 2nd last tracer. When the S##t was hitting the fan over there, big time ! , Was that top round left or right ? , Shit now I'm dead, & my buddy's  are dead, But with 2nd round tracer, cock, remove mag, look see red , good to go ! , YOU HAVE NO F--KING TIME TO SECOND GUESS YOUSELF. And 2nd last for fired last tracer, drop mag, new mag, start firering, no cocking !, no brainer !. Max rounds down range, fastest way.
               If you don't have dump pouch get one, or there going on the ground.


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## KevinB (7 Dec 2007)

tracer in mags (IMHO) is a bad idea - unless its a marking mag -- you often dont see them in close - and its a bad idea to get in the habit of using a vis reminder for that.
  odds are the guns just wont go bang.

For a admin or tac load where you have time the method of watching where your top round is, works well - its not a drill for under fire.  Same with the press check to verify.

  Gunfighter is a start but its not the end all be all.


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