# The Coyote...



## Argyll_2347 (30 Apr 2001)

My cadet corps‘ parent regiment, the Argylls, had recruiting and had a Coyote for the public to view.

I always thought that why do we have the Coyote for recce?  It would be loud, too loud for close recce.  Do its operators go on foot for recces closer to the target?

This has always been a thought on my mind and that experience just reminded me.

Albainn Gu-Brath


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Apr 2001)

Argyll,
You hit the nail on the head. That is why the recce doctrine is being re-written to include a survellience element and a mud recce element. The coyote is a surv veh. It can do recce from a standoff position, with cameras and radar. Once you paint your screen and insert your radar fence, nothing can move in or out without triggering the alarm. Then you slave the camera to the coords and watch the target on the screen. The GPS will then give the grid. Problems happen when there is dead ground in front. Radar can‘t see into holes. The 2 car coyote patrol has only enough pers to operate the vehs and radar site around the clock. They need mud recce in front for the holes and to do foot patrols. The new (GM Brute?) LUVW will fill the need for the forward recce sneak and peek stuff in the traditional recce role, much as the iltis has but with add on armour and a crew served cupola mount weapon. Hope this helped.


----------



## noneck (30 Apr 2001)

Recce Guy what is this LUVW will it replace the iltis and where can I find the a picture?

Cheers
Alba gu Bragh


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Apr 2001)

The LUVW (Light Utility Vehicle Wheeled) is the nomenclature for the Iltis replacement. There are various vehicles in the running and being evaluated. There will be two patterns. The order calls for 802 standard military pattern(SMP) and 801 standard military commercial pattern(SMC). The breakdown of issue is still up in the air as to who gets what. Looks like reserve recce units will be issued the SMP while other units get the SMC version. I have only seen one picture of the GM Brute made in conjunction wiith Bucher-Guyer. It far outstrips all other contenders as far as capability, according to it‘s writeup. There are a number of issues that have to be resolved but we should see or know something soon if production is going to start and veh get issued by 2002.


----------



## Argyll_2347 (1 May 2001)

Thanks recce guy!  I also found this website when I looked up "Bucher-Guyer":
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicles/bucher/index.html 

Will the new vehicle be the 4x4 or 6x6?  Or do you know?

Recce Gu-Brath!

Albainn Gu-Brath


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 May 2001)

Argyll,
Don‘t be looking at the Bucher Duro, that‘s more a truck than anything else. For information on the LUVW project, got to the site below. It‘s the official DND site for vendor info and specs we want. They‘re putting out the bid over the internet, if you can believe it! Some of the timelines for delivery have already changed. I‘ll try and find some sites with pictures of similar vehs we‘re looking for. Stay tuned.
recceguy.
http://www.concentricmc.com/luvw/english/introduction.html


----------



## Brock (2 May 2001)

recceguy, where and how on the DND website did you find the LUVW infromation (not the acutal page, I already checked that out)?  According to tha page the government appears to be leaning away from buying the Hummer.  It amazes me that we don‘t do the simplest and easiest thing we can do.  The goverment also seems to be leaning away from buying the other two obvious and capable light utility vehicles that could easily fullfill both the SMP and COTS pattern requirements.  The Land Rover Defender 110/130 and the Daimler-Benz G-Wagon series are perhaps even better vehicles than the Hummer to replace the Itis.  The Brute is not used by anyone else in any kind of numbers so it will end up being more expensive than any of the three mentioned.  Ford currently makes no vehicles in any significant numbers for any military (nice choice).  The Brute is currently being highly considered, because it will be made by Diesel Division General Motors in London, Ontarion.  Mark my words, DND will buy the Brute and the militarized Sierra seires of trucks as the COTS.  This may make good sense financially, because the reserve will be able to fix the vehicles "downtown", but is useless for training.  The COTS will not be able to mount a C-6 or a .50 cal.  Oh yeah, there being taken out of service, becuase the reg force mechanized battalions have 25mm chain guns on the LAV III.  Another political decision that undermines the military.  The regular army also three light infantry battalions that are "quasi-mechnanized" when ever they have to be deployed.  Where does this leave the reserve infantry, up the creek without a paddle.  If the government had any forthought or any idea of what the military needs.  They might start by asking  soldiers, not just "yes men-women" officers only concerned with their careers.  This sight alone gernerates far better ideas than anything I have ever seen on the DND website.
If the government was really trying to outfit the army with an effective light vehicle they would purchase one of three vehicles that I have suggested, with preference for the Land Rover Defender110/130.  Canadians constantly work with both the Brits and the Americans for excercies and operations.  The Land Rover Defender is capable of being armoured and armed with C-6 to.50 Cal sized weapons. The 130 will also make an excellent replacement for the LSVW when it is clear that it is too expensive to keep.  The width and weight make the Defender a better choice than the Hummer which is only marginally superior in most areas.  The Hummer also consumes a lot more fuel than the Defender.  The Defender can also be fixed downtown at most garages, because it is based on a commercial vehicle, whereas the Hummer requires specialized mechanics.  The Defender is a great vehicle in widespread military and civilian use worldwide and will likely be so for many years to come.  The G-Wagon is very similar to the Defender, but is slightly more expensive, because it has fewer users and "its German" an excellent light truck, but like all German vehicles, it tends to be pricier.  The Hummer will have a higher purchase cost, but low in-service support costs due to the easy access to the US militaries spares and support system.  These vehicles descirbed would be far better than any offer from Ford or GM.  GM just owns AM General.  The best bet would be to shortlist the three descirbed and select the best bid.  Buy one vehicle simply maintenance and training.  Costlier to transport to training areas, but  as costly as leasing/renting $40-50,000 SUVs and full size trucks?  Probably not when training advantages are added in.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 May 2001)

Brock,
Let‘s take this one thing at a time and I‘ll try and answer everything. I found the web site by surfing for defence contractors and projects. It‘s been up for a few months at least, I‘ve been watching it for about that long. As far as not buying the HMMWV, as you said AM General is now owned by GM. The Brute is a natural progression from and a new generation of this veh. It incorporates many of the drive and suspension features of the HMMWV. I‘ll quote" The Brute offers the Canadian soldier the greatest growth potential, most protection, highest ground clearance, deepest fording, best all round mobility, 2715 kg of payload and a turbo charged 185 hp engine. Brute offers more than any other vehicle in the Canadian LUVW program" unquote. I have spoken to serving soldiers with at least 30 yrs experience each in the armoured corp. These fellows have seen the actual prototype and were very impressed. The veh is beefed up in the suspension from the HMMWV and apparently is considerably faster, more comfortable and more agile X-country. It is also being built to afford many upgrades in the future as they come on line. GM has an excellent legacy of world wide military sales for their combat vehicles and I don‘t think it‘s fair to critisize them for building the Brute for the Cdn Forces, it will probably also be sold elswhere, a la LAV family. I don‘t know what the COTS veh will be but I get the impression it will be a civie pattern of the Brute, as there is a civie pattern of the HMMWV. I can only speak from where I live, I‘m recce and the HMMWV, et al are to big for my job. As for where this leaves the light infantry, I don‘t know. This is an Iltis replacement program and as far as I know the infantry, reg and reserve didn‘t use alot of iltis anyway. As an aside, the HMMWV is reaching it‘s critical age and the US military is looking at off the shelf full sized pick ups like the Dodge Ram with beefed suspensions, bush guards etc for replacement. If you want to look at cost, the LR Defender is a very expensive veh indeed. Also having worked with various Brit equipment during my career (Centurion, Ferret) I can tell you that the Brits build nightmare vehicles, mechanically. I don‘t know enough about the Daimler to comment. I‘m sure if they were interested they would have joined the competition through Chrysler. Next point. Dealing with the US mil spares and support system is not as easy as it sounds, and it often ends up costing more than it‘s worth. Both in time, money and quality. Canada has a protection thing going with it‘s purchases.If no one will provide in country, like MBT‘s, they‘ll buy outside. I wish we could all put in our 2 cents to the bosses but with the current political climate and the Liberals filling friends pockets we‘ll just have to "suck back and reload", take what we get, be happy we at least got something and hope that it turns out to be what we need. I hope this covered most of your concerns. By the way I‘m not advocating one veh over the other, I‘ve got lots of hours on the HMMWV and really quite like it. Just not good for my job. The Brute was brought into this thread as an aside and seems to have taken on a life of it‘s own. I‘m supposed to be afforded the opportunity to see this veh in the next six months or so and will be able to comment further at that time. As long as we respect each others opinions to disagree, that‘s the main thing. Feel free to ask more. Have a happy. Willie!!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 May 2001)

Guys,
 Here‘s a site on the MOWAG Eagle, looks alot like the Brute, or the Brute looks like it? Whatever.
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/supplement/lav/lav_eagle2.shtml


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 May 2001)

OK, couple of more.
Been looking at the Mowag Eagle and it sure looks a lot like the Brute. Even the power pack is GM as well as the Hummer suspension. Should of guessed, seeing as the Cougar and Grizzly started out being built under license from MOWAG. This is a Swiss veh and it sure looks like what GM is building. If Canada purchases the Brute it will look alot like this with some GM mods to make it theirs. The window placement and size, the weapon cupola, etc are almost exact matches. These sites are in swiss but have good pictures, as well, if you go to Northern Light search engine and type mowag eagle you‘ll get a lot more. happy hunting. Willie!

http://www.mowag.ch/De/WehrtechnikDe/EAGLE4x4De/EAGLE4x4De.htm http://www.4x4plus.ch/Bericht/0024.htm


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 May 2001)

Last time,
Here it is in english. http://www.mowag.ch/En/WehrtechnikEn/EAGLE4x4En/EAGLE4x4En.htm


----------

