# Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves



## army

Posted by *"Mason" <maseroni@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:28:19 -0600*
Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why you 
were nervous!  The physical‘s just like a regular check up.  As for the 
interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is like, 
but the best advice I have is the same for any interview:  be specific 
and to the point.  It pays to be direct as well.  Best of luck to you!
Mason
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once 
you‘re done
you‘ll wonder why you were nervous! The physical‘s just like a 
regular
check up. As for the interview, I don‘t know what an interview for 
an
officer entry is like, but the best advice I have is the same for any
interview: be specific and to the point. It pays to be 
direct as
well. Best of luck to you!
Mason
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## army

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:27 -0500*
>From what I understand the interview part for officers is 3 hours long! 
I‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mason
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM
  Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why 
you were nervous!  The physical‘s just like a regular check up.  As for 
the interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is 
like, but the best advice I have is the same for any interview:  be 
specific and to the point.  It pays to be direct as well.  Best of luck 
to you!
  Mason
From what I 
understand the
interview part for officers is 3 hours long! I‘m not sure what they 
cover but
best of luck to you.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Mason

  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 
6:28
  PM
  Subject: Re: Recruitment in 
Army
  Reserves

  Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, 
once you‘re
  done you‘ll wonder why you were nervous! The physical‘s just 
like a
  regular check up. As for the interview, I don‘t know what an 
interview
  for an officer entry is like, but the best advice I have is the same 
for any
  interview: be specific and to the point. It pays to be 
direct as
  well. Best of luck to you!

  Mason
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Steve Harwood" <sharwood@iprimus.ca>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:14:57 -0500*
Thanks Mason!  I am confident that I will be ok. I have been rehearsing and
doing my research.  his news list has been helpful in nailing down some
facts and figures.  Thnks for your help! It will be great to serve with guys
like you.
Thanks,
Steve
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Mason
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why you
were nervous!  The physical‘s just like a regular check up.  As for the
interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is like, but
the best advice I have is the same for any interview:  be specific and to
the point.  It pays to be direct as well.  Best of luck to you!
  Mason
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Thanks
Mason! I am confident that I will be ok. I have been rehearsing 
and doing
my research. his news list has been helpful in nailing down some 
facts and
figures. Thnks for your help! It will be great to serve with guys 
like
you. 
Thanks,
Steve
  -----Original Message-----From: 
owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On Behalf Of 
MasonSent:
  Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PMTo:
  army-list@CdnArmy.caSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army
  Reserves
  Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, 
once you‘re
  done you‘ll wonder why you were nervous! The physical‘s just 
like a
  regular check up. As for the interview, I don‘t know what an 
interview
  for an officer entry is like, but the best advice I have is the same 
for any
  interview: be specific and to the point. It pays to be 
direct as
  well. Best of luck to you!

  Mason
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Steve Harwood" <sharwood@iprimus.ca>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:14:59 -0500*
Thanks Jay....I‘ll be prepared!
Steve
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Jay Digital
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 7:24 PM
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  From what I understand the interview part for officers is 3 hours long!
I‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mason
    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
    Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM
    Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
    Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why you
were nervous!  The physical‘s just like a regular check up.  As for the
interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is like, but
the best advice I have is the same for any interview:  be specific and to
the point.  It pays to be direct as well.  Best of luck to you!
    Mason
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Thanks
Jay....I‘ll be prepared!
Steve
  -----Original Message-----From: 
owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On Behalf Of Jay
  DigitalSent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 7:24 
PMTo:
  army-list@CdnArmy.caSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army
  Reserves
  From what I 
understand the
  interview part for officers is 3 hours long! I‘m not sure what they 
cover but
  best of luck to you.


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From:
    Mason

    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
    Sent: Sunday, December 03, 
2000 6:28
    PM
    Subject: Re: Recruitment in 
Army
    Reserves

    Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, 
once you‘re
    done you‘ll wonder why you were nervous! The physical‘s just 
like a
    regular check up. As for the interview, I don‘t know what an 
interview
    for an officer entry is like, but the best advice I have is the same 
for any
    interview: be specific and to the point. It pays to be 
direct as
    well. Best of luck to you!

    Mason
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:49:55 EST*
3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
How long for ‘grunts‘?
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## army

Posted by *"Nick Butler" <absolut_nick@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:06:51 -0500*
Well my interview was only a few weeks ago after MONTHS of waiting, and it was mostly the same questions as I was asked during the Regimental Board, about your life‘s history, motivations for joining, what your perceptions of the Forces are, knowledge of world affairs, all kinds of stuff. The Board was about 1.5 hrs, my interview after med/PT test was about an hour.
N.
gtFrom: "Jay Digital" 
gtReply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gtTo: 
gtSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves 
gtDate: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:27 -0500 
gt 
gtFrom what I understand the interview part for officers is 3 hours long! I‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you. 
gt 
gt ----- Original Message ----- 
gt From: Mason 
gt To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gt Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM 
gt Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves 
gt 
gt 
gt Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why you were nervous! The physical‘s just like a regular check up. As for the interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is like, but the best advice I have is the same for any interview: be specific and to the point. It pays to be direct as well. Best of luck to you! 
gt 
gt Mason 
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## army

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:06:25 -0500*
Mine was about 20 mins
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> 3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> How long for ‘grunts‘?
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:14:15 EST*
To answer the question, "Three hours for Officers! How long for grunts?"...In 
order to enlist in the U.S. Army, the recruiter used to keep a big old log in 
his office.  If you could fall off the log, then you could be an infantryman. 
 If you couldn‘t fall off the log, then you went right to OCS.  On the other 
hand, if you couldn‘t recognize what a log was, then you were enrolled in 
ROTC.  No comments about how folks qualified for West Point.
Facetiously Yours,
Dave "Still Waiting For A President-Elect" Hall
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## army

Posted by *"Steve Harwood" <sharwood@iprimus.ca>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:14:22 -0500*
Hi Nick, I started the process in on October with a meeting with the Lt Col
who gave me the thumbs up.  I too was under the impression it would be
months of waiting. However, I had my aptitude test on Nov15, medical and
interview is on Dec 7, and my physical is on Dec14. Sounds like my process
is taking place faster and I don‘t have any relatives in the forces.
Good Luck
Steve
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Nick Butler
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:07 PM
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  Well my interview was only a few weeks ago after MONTHS of waiting, and
it was mostly the same questions as I was asked during the Regimental Board,
about your life‘s history, motivations for joining, what your perceptions of
the Forces are, knowledge of world affairs, all kinds of stuff.  The Board
was about 1.5 hrs, my interview after med/PT test was about an hour.
  N.
  >From: "Jay Digital"
  >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  >To:
  >Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:27 -0500
  >
  >From what I understand the interview part for officers is 3 hours long!
I‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you.
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Mason
  > To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  > Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM
  > Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  >
  >
  > Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why you
were nervous! The physical‘s just like a regular check up. As for the
interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is like, but
the best advice I have is the same for any interview: be specific and to the
point. It pays to be direct as well. Best of luck to you!
  >
  > Mason
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Hi
Nick, I started the process in on October with a meeting with the Lt Col 
who
gave me the thumbs up. I too was under the impression it would be 
months
of waiting. However, I had my aptitude test on Nov15, medical and 
interview is
on Dec 7, and my physical is on Dec14. Sounds like my process is taking 
place
faster and I don‘t have any relatives in the forces. 
Good
Luck
Steve
  -----Original Message-----From: 
owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On Behalf Of Nick
  ButlerSent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:07 PMTo: 
  army-list@CdnArmy.caSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army
  Reserves

  Well my interview was only a few weeks ago after MONTHS of 
waiting, and
  it was mostly the same questions as I was asked during the Regimental 
Board,
  about your life‘s history, motivations for joining, what your 
perceptions of
  the Forces are, knowledge of world affairs, all kinds of stuff. 
The
  Board was about 1.5 hrs, my interview after med/PT test was about an 
hour.
  N.

  gtFrom: "Jay Digital" 
  gtReply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  gtTo: 
  gtSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  gtDate: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:27 -0500
  gt
  gtFrom what I understand the interview part for officers 
is 3
  hours long! I‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you.
  gt
  gt ----- Original Message -----
  gt From: Mason
  gt To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  gt Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM
  gt Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  gt
  gt
  gt Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done 
you‘ll
  wonder why you were nervous! The physical‘s just like a regular check 
up. As
  for the interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry 
is
  like, but the best advice I have is the same for any interview: be 
specific
  and to the point. It pays to be direct as well. Best of luck to you!
  gt
  gt Mason


  Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :  http://explorer.msn.com 
  -------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: 
To
  remove yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from
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in the
  message body.
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## army

Posted by *"Steve Harwood" <sharwood@iprimus.ca>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:22:55 -0500*
Thanks Dave....that was entertaining.  Hope the interview is as simple in
reality.  Thanks,
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of DHall058@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:14 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
To answer the question, "Three hours for Officers! How long for
grunts?"...In
order to enlist in the U.S. Army, the recruiter used to keep a big old log
in
his office.  If you could fall off the log, then you could be an
infantryman.
 If you couldn‘t fall off the log, then you went right to OCS.  On the other
hand, if you couldn‘t recognize what a log was, then you were enrolled in
ROTC.  No comments about how folks qualified for West Point.
Facetiously Yours,
Dave "Still Waiting For A President-Elect" Hall
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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## army

Posted by *"Nick Butler" <absolut_nick@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:29:14 -0500*
That‘s cool... I had my CFAT and all that done before I had the meeting with the whole board the LCol, 2 Majors, and a Captain who was the Regt‘s Adjutant, then they finally booked my med and PT. It‘s nothing gruelling at all, except that my coordination was really off that morning and for some reason I kept messing up the step test. 
You‘ll find it‘s nothing too brutal. Just be honest with the Physician‘s Assistant or whoever does your medical, they can tell if you‘re lying about anything they ask you... and then they‘ll dig deeper about it. Keep good eye contact, think about stuff like what your trade does and why you want to do it, why you think you can do it well, etc., and then just be relaxed for the interview. Eye contact is important too... I noticed both the PA and the Career Counsellor paid strong attention to that.
And btw all my relatives were in the RAF, Royal Marines, or Royal Navy, not Canadian Forces...Best of luck,
N.
gtFrom: "Steve Harwood" 
gtReply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gtTo: 
gtSubject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves 
gtDate: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:14:22 -0500 
gt 
gtHi Nick, I started the process in on October with a meeting with the Lt Col 
gtwho gave me the thumbs up. I too was under the impression it would be 
gtmonths of waiting. However, I had my aptitude test on Nov15, medical and 
gtinterview is on Dec 7, and my physical is on Dec14. Sounds like my process 
gtis taking place faster and I don‘t have any relatives in the forces. 
gt 
gtGood Luck 
gt 
gtSteve 
gt -----Original Message----- 
gt From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On 
gtBehalf Of Nick Butler 
gt Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:07 PM 
gt To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gt Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves 
gt 
gt 
gt Well my interview was only a few weeks ago after MONTHS of waiting, and 
gtit was mostly the same questions as I was asked during the Regimental Board, 
gtabout your life‘s history, motivations for joining, what your perceptions of 
gtthe Forces are, knowledge of world affairs, all kinds of stuff. The Board 
gtwas about 1.5 hrs, my interview after med/PT test was about an hour. 
gt 
gt N. 
gt 
gt 
gt 
gt gtFrom: "Jay Digital" 
gt gtReply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gt gtTo: 
gt gtSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves 
gt gtDate: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:27 -0500 
gt gt 
gt gtFrom what I understand the interview part for officers is 3 hours long! 
gtI‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you. 
gt gt 
gt gt ----- Original Message ----- 
gt gt From: Mason 
gt gt To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gt gt Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM 
gt gt Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves 
gt gt 
gt gt 
gt gt Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why you 
gtwere nervous! The physical‘s just like a regular check up. As for the 
gtinterview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is like, but 
gtthe best advice I have is the same for any interview: be specific and to the 
gtpoint. It pays to be direct as well. Best of luck to you! 
gt gt 
gt gt Mason 
gt 
gt 
gt---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
gt-- 
gt Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : 
gthttp://explorer.msn.com 
gt 
gt 
gt -------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: To remove 
gtyourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the 
gtaccount you wish to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the 
gtmessage body. 
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## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 22:06:24 EST*
HahaLOL!
I like the comments, dave.
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## army

Posted by *"Steve Harwood" <sharwood@iprimus.ca>* on *Mon, 4 Dec 2000 07:14:14 -0500*
Thanks Nick.... I‘ll work on my coordination so as not to flub up the
stairs.  I really appreciate your advice about eye contact.  This has to be
a conscious effort on my part and I can understand why it is so important. I
expect the same from people that I am talking to. Also being relaxed....I‘ll
stay off the coffee that day!
My relatives none of which can help me now are WWII, Mom - CWAC, Dad -
RCA, RCOC, RCEME, WW1 -Great Uncles - RCAMC, RFC, Canadian Mounted Rifles
one died at Vimy Ridge, and Great Grandfather - 7th Fusiliers, 1885 2nd
Louis Riel Rebellion.
OK...Nick I‘m off to do my workout. Thanks so much. You‘ve been a great
help.
Steve
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Nick Butler
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:29 PM
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  That‘s cool...  I had my CFAT and all that done before I had the meeting
with the whole board the LCol, 2 Majors, and a Captain who was the Regt‘s
Adjutant, then they finally booked my med and PT.  It‘s nothing gruelling
at all, except that my coordination was really off that morning and for some
reason I kept messing up the step test.
  You‘ll find it‘s nothing too brutal.  Just be honest with the Physician‘s
Assistant or whoever does your medical, they can tell if you‘re lying about
anything they ask you...  and then they‘ll dig deeper about it.  Keep good
eye contact, think about stuff like what your trade does and why you want to
do it, why you think you can do it well, etc., and then just be relaxed for
the interview.  Eye contact is important too... I noticed both the PA and
the Career Counsellor paid strong attention to that.
  And btw all my relatives were in the RAF, Royal Marines, or Royal Navy,
not Canadian Forces...
  Best of luck,
  N.
  >From: "Steve Harwood"
  >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  >To:
  >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:14:22 -0500
  >
  >Hi Nick, I started the process in on October with a meeting with the Lt
Col
  >who gave me the thumbs up. I too was under the impression it would be
  >months of waiting. However, I had my aptitude test on Nov15, medical and
  >interview is on Dec 7, and my physical is on Dec14. Sounds like my
process
  >is taking place faster and I don‘t have any relatives in the forces.
  >
  >Good Luck
  >
  >Steve
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
  >Behalf Of Nick Butler
  > Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:07 PM
  > To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  > Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  >
  >
  > Well my interview was only a few weeks ago after MONTHS of waiting,
and
  >it was mostly the same questions as I was asked during the Regimental
Board,
  >about your life‘s history, motivations for joining, what your perceptions
of
  >the Forces are, knowledge of world affairs, all kinds of stuff. The Board
  >was about 1.5 hrs, my interview after med/PT test was about an hour.
  >
  > N.
  >
  >
  >
  > >From: "Jay Digital"
  > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  > >To:
  > >Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  > >Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:27 -0500
  > >
  > >From what I understand the interview part for officers is 3 hours long!
  >I‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you.
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: Mason
  > > To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  > > Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM
  > > Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  > >
  > >
  > > Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re done you‘ll wonder why
you
  >were nervous! The physical‘s just like a regular check up. As for the
  >interview, I don‘t know what an interview for an officer entry is like,
but
  >the best advice I have is the same for any interview: be specific and to
the
  >point. It pays to be direct as well. Best of luck to you!
  > >
  > > Mason
  >
  >
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  >--
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  >
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Thanks
Nick.... I‘ll work on my coordination so as not to flub up the 
stairs. I
really appreciate your advice about eye contact. This has to be a
conscious effort on my part and I can understand why it is so important. 
I
expect the same from people that I am talking to. Also being 
relaxed....I‘ll
stay off the coffee that day!
My
relatives none of which can help me now are WWII, Mom - CWAC, Dad - 
RCA, RCOC,
RCEME, WW1 -Great Uncles - RCAMC, RFC, Canadian Mounted Rifles one died 
at Vimy
Ridge, and Great Grandfather - 7th Fusiliers, 1885 2nd Louis Riel
Rebellion.
OK...Nick I‘m off to do my workout. Thanks so 
much.
You‘ve been a great help.
Steve
  -----Original Message-----From: 
owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On Behalf Of Nick
  ButlerSent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:29 PMTo: 
  army-list@CdnArmy.caSubject: RE: Recruitment in Army
  Reserves

  That‘s cool... I had my CFAT and all that done before I had 
the
  meeting with the whole board the LCol, 2 Majors, and a Captain who 
was the
  Regt‘s Adjutant, then they finally booked my med and PT. It‘s 
nothing
  gruelling at all, except that my coordination was really off that 
morning and
  for some reason I kept messing up the step test. 
  You‘ll find it‘s nothing too brutal. Just be honest with the
  Physician‘s Assistant or whoever does your medical, they can tell if 
you‘re
  lying about anything they ask you... and then they‘ll dig deeper 
about
  it. Keep good eye contact, think about stuff like what your 
trade does
  and why you want to do it, why you think you can do it well, etc., and 
then
  just be relaxed for the interview. Eye contact is important 
too... I
  noticed both the PA and the Career Counsellor paid strong attention to 
  that.
  And btw all my relatives were in the RAF, Royal Marines, or Royal 
Navy, not
  Canadian Forces...Best of luck,
  N.

  gtFrom: "Steve Harwood" 
  gtReply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  gtTo: 
  gtSubject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  gtDate: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:14:22 -0500
  gt
  gtHi Nick, I started the process in on October with a 
meeting
  with the Lt Col
  gtwho gave me the thumbs up. I too was under the 
impression it
  would be
  gtmonths of waiting. However, I had my aptitude test on 
Nov15,
  medical and
  gtinterview is on Dec 7, and my physical is on Dec14. 
Sounds like
  my process
  gtis taking place faster and I don‘t have any relatives 
in the
  forces.
  gt
  gtGood Luck
  gt
  gtSteve
  gt -----Original Message-----
  gt From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
  gtBehalf Of Nick Butler
  gt Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 9:07 PM
  gt To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  gt Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  gt
  gt
  gt Well my interview was only a few weeks ago after 
MONTHS of
  waiting, and
  gtit was mostly the same questions as I was asked during 
the
  Regimental Board,
  gtabout your life‘s history, motivations for joining, 
what your
  perceptions of
  gtthe Forces are, knowledge of world affairs, all kinds 
of stuff.
  The Board
  gtwas about 1.5 hrs, my interview after med/PT test was 
about an
  hour.
  gt
  gt N.
  gt
  gt
  gt
  gt gtFrom: "Jay Digital"
  gt gtReply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  gt gtTo:
  gt gtSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  gt gtDate: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:24:27 -0500
  gt gt
  gt gtFrom what I understand the interview part for 
officers is
  3 hours long!
  gtI‘m not sure what they cover but best of luck to you.
  gt gt
  gt gt ----- Original Message -----
  gt gt From: Mason
  gt gt To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  gt gt Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:28 PM
  gt gt Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  gt gt
  gt gt
  gt gt Well the fitness test isn‘t hard, once you‘re 
done you‘ll
  wonder why you
  gtwere nervous! The physical‘s just like a regular check 
up. As
  for the
  gtinterview, I don‘t know what an interview for an 
officer entry
  is like, but
  gtthe best advice I have is the same for any interview: 
be
  specific and to the
  gtpoint. It pays to be direct as well. Best of luck to 
you!
  gt gt
  gt gt Mason
  gt
  gt

gt----------------------------------------------------------
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  from the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Mason" <maseroni@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:20:55 -0600*
My interview, Private was only about half and hour long!
Mason
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> 3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> How long for ‘grunts‘?
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> message body.
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## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:15:55 EST*
I hear a lot of complaints about waiting lists for the different appointments 
necessary to get processed in the military. A lot of people say they‘ve been 
waiting forever! I‘m wondering if that‘s simply for the Reg‘s, or if I‘m just 
lucky?!
    So far, I‘ve filled out and handed in my application forms, I brought in 
my transcripts, I‘ve had the medical, the CFAT, and the times were all at my 
convenience. All I have left is to make an appointment for a PT test, then 
after that an interview.
    Am I just lucky, or is ‘reserve processing‘ all that much faster?
                -Matt B.
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## army

Posted by *"stcurtis" <stcurtis@compusmart.ab.ca>* on *	Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:52:48 -0700*
A lot of people say that they waited forever to get into the
militaryspeaking only of reg but most of the people I know had signed on
the line within a relatively short period of time!!! As a matter of fact one
friend even finished the process, and was called two weeks later and on the
plane 3 days later!!  When my brother joined the reserves it seemed that he
was being sworn in before he decided if he wanted to join!!!
TC
>I hear a lot of complaints about waiting lists for the different
appointments
>necessary to get processed in the military. A lot of people say they‘ve
been
>waiting forever! I‘m wondering if that‘s simply for the Reg‘s, or if I‘m
just
>lucky?!
>    So far, I‘ve filled out and handed in my application forms, I brought
in
>my transcripts, I‘ve had the medical, the CFAT, and the times were all at
my
>convenience. All I have left is to make an appointment for a PT test, then
>after that an interview.
>    Am I just lucky, or is ‘reserve processing‘ all that much faster?
>                -Matt B.
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## army

Posted by *"Mason" <maseroni@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:52:11 -0600*
I think the time it takes is dependent on how busy the time is, and the
regiment you‘re joining.
It took me from June to mid-November to complete my "QL1" as they call it.
That had a lot to do with the fact that they were really busy, and the fact
that there weren‘t many applicants to my regiment at the time.  In fact,
after my interview, the officer said that they like to wait until 4 or 5
applications pile up for the regiment before they schedule a Swearing in
Ceremony.  By the time November rolled around, there had only been one other
applicant, so they combined the 11th Field Regiment‘s RCA, and my
Regiment‘s Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada ceremonies together for a
grand total of three of us!  Plus you can imagine what fun our CO had
brainwashing the poor Artillary recruit, that the Infantry was the place to
be... *chuckle*, guess you had to be there!
Mason
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Nick Butler" <absolut_nick@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 04 Dec 2000 23:52:11 -0500*
Well my full processing took from start to finish 4 months, and I‘ve still yet to be officially sworn in. I‘m not even sure when that is, I‘m to attend the Regiment‘s Christmas dinner and supposedly they plan to swear in all our new Officer Cadets myself included then, after the change to meet entire assembled Regiment.
We‘ll see how that goes.
My only complaint about the whole process was that they kept me in the dark on a lot of things and then chastised me for not knowing what was going on. I got railed at by some petty officer at the Recruiting Centre for not having documents that I had a explained reasons for not being able to immediately obtain and b was not told would be needed that day... this was when I came for my CFAT test.
Anyhow, I share Matt‘s sentiments. As I am part of the future of the CF I am honoured that some people still have faith in the organization. Hopefully public goodwill can be worked on in the future and we can again as Canadians become proud of those who serve.
Nick
gtFrom: Juno847627709@aol.com 
gtReply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gtTo: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
gtSubject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves 
gtDate: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 22:15:55 EST 
gt 
gtI hear a lot of complaints about waiting lists for the different appointments 
gtnecessary to get processed in the military. A lot of people say they‘ve been 
gtwaiting forever! I‘m wondering if that‘s simply for the Reg‘s, or if I‘m just 
gtlucky?! 
gt So far, I‘ve filled out and handed in my application forms, I brought in 
gtmy transcripts, I‘ve had the medical, the CFAT, and the times were all at my 
gtconvenience. All I have left is to make an appointment for a PT test, then 
gtafter that an interview. 
gt Am I just lucky, or is ‘reserve processing‘ all that much faster? 
gt -Matt B. 
gt-------------------------------------------------------- 
gtNOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message 
gtto majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to 
gtremove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the 
gtmessage body. 
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## army

Posted by *"Harwood, Steve" <SHarwood@karmax.com>* on *Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:36:46 -0500 *
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
Thanks Mason..maybe I will run into you in Cambridge or Guelph.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Mason [mailto:maseroni@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:52 AM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
I think the time it takes is dependent on how busy the time is, and the
regiment you‘re joining.
It took me from June to mid-November to complete my "QL1" as they call it.
That had a lot to do with the fact that they were really busy, and the fact
that there weren‘t many applicants to my regiment at the time.  In fact,
after my interview, the officer said that they like to wait until 4 or 5
applications pile up for the regiment before they schedule a Swearing in
Ceremony.  By the time November rolled around, there had only been one other
applicant, so they combined the 11th Field Regiment‘s RCA, and my
Regiment‘s Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada ceremonies together for a
grand total of three of us!  Plus you can imagine what fun our CO had
brainwashing the poor Artillary recruit, that the Infantry was the place to
be... *chuckle*, guess you had to be there!
Mason
--------------------------------------------------------
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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:  This message contains information which may be
privileged, confidential or exempt or prohibited from disclosure under
applicable law.  If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message
to the intended recipient, you are hereby NOTIFIED that any dissemination,
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contents thereof is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this message
in error or in contravention of the above, please notify the sender
immediately by return e-mail.
RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
Thanks Mason..maybe I will run into you in Cambridge 
or Guelph.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Mason [mailto:maseroni@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 12:52 AM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
I think the time it takes is dependent on how busy 
the time is, and the
regiment you‘re joining.
It took me from June to mid-November to complete my 
quotQL1quot as they call it.
That had a lot to do with the fact that they were 
really busy, and the fact
that there weren‘t many applicants to my regiment at 
the time. In fact,
after my interview, the officer said that they like 
to wait until 4 or 5
applications pile up for the regiment before they 
schedule a Swearing in
Ceremony. By the time November rolled around, 
there had only been one other
applicant, so they combined the 11th Field 
Regiment‘s RCA, and my
Regiment‘s Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada 
ceremonies together for a
grand total of three of us! Plus you can 
imagine what fun our CO had
brainwashing the poor Artillary recruit, that the 
Infantry was the place to
be... *chuckle*, guess you had to be there!
Mason
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to
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CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This message contains information which may be privileged, 
confidential or exempt or prohibited from disclosure under applicable 
law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, 
or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the 
intended recipient, you are hereby NOTIFIED that any dissemination, 
distribution, retention, archiving or copying of this message and/or 
the contents thereof is strictly prohibited. If you have received 
this message in error or in contravention of the above, please notify 
the sender immediately by return e-mail.
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## army

Posted by *"rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps"* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:06:42 -0700*
This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is 
another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to 
train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it is 
very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for 
employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres located 
in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet 
movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
-----Original Message-----
From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
Sentecember 3, 2000 6:50 PM
To:army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject:Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
How long for ‘grunts‘?
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## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800*
There are two types of CILofficers
1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers uniform
much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s either
solides sailors or airman
2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to see
how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond language
training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some professionals
that are very good and very much good CILofficers
Your comments please -
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it is
very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres located
in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
-----Original Message-----
From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
Sentecember 3, 2000 6:50 PM
To:army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject:Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
How long for ‘grunts‘?
--------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:06:45 -0700*
Adam,
        If you want to be taken seriously, may I suggest you make an effort at
backing up your statements. Blanket statements like yours hold no water. Explain
your point, perhaps even with a degree of reason. That said, CIL/CIC officers
dedicate their time to individuals like you so that you can achieve often
difficult goals and make something of yourself. More often than not, they commit
to volunteering twice as many hours as there are paid for. They have to put with
parents who think of cadets as merely a baby-sitting service, other parents have
very little in the way of raising their children, the cadets do it for them.
Still other cadets, whine and snivel about how slack the CIL/CIC officers are.
Well, son, spend a week in their boots and I‘m sure you‘ll change your tune. As
with any walk of life, there are the hangers-on and slack individuals, but
please believe me, that isn‘t just with the CIL/CIC, so don‘t tell me the
majority of them are ‘a waste of life‘. How do you justify your lofty position
that they shouldn‘t be wearing a uniform or saluted? Wait until you join the
real world, boy will you be surprised! If you were in my cadet corps with that
attitude, you wouldn‘t be a CWO much less a Cpl. What happened? Got turned down
for a course? Didn‘t get what you wanted? That‘s life, suck it up!
Francois Arseneault
ex-cadet 1977-81
ex-reservist 1981-83
military contracter 1989- to date
ACL of C 1991 - to date
Adam Wainwright wrote:
> There are two types of CILofficers
>
> 1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
> and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers uniform
> much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s either
> solides sailors or airman
>
> 2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
> others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
> the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
>
> You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to see
> how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond language
> training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
> CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some professionals
> that are very good and very much good CILofficers
>
> Your comments please -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
> This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
> another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
> train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it is
> very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
> employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres located
> in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> Sent:   December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> To:     army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> Subject:        Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
> 3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> How long for ‘grunts‘?
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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>
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>
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## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:18:51 -0800*
As a former member of both the Regs and the Reserves, I take great offence
at you casting asparagus at Scouting...........I am a Scouting leader and
enjoy my volunteer time immensely.  I‘m sure your leaders deserve respect,
but you must first learn how to respect someone.....
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## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:38:24 EST*
I‘m just ending my cadet career with 2918LLACC in Leamington, Ontario. I‘m a 
Sergeant. This last summer I went to a Cadet Leader Course, expecting my 
officers to be much like how Adam described them. My platoon commander was 
2Lt. **** A. Robinson, and I‘d do anything for him. He was probably about 35 
and had only CIC military experience. He wasn‘t an ‘old hand‘. He was one of 
the best leaders and best people of ever had the honour of being in the 
presence of. He deserved every salute afforded him, and I only wish that more 
cadets understood how much time goes in to being a GOOD Cadet Instructor. 
    I don‘t think I‘m in much of a position to tell the seasoned soldiers and 
other servicemen on this list if I think a Canadian Forces Officer is 
imcompetent. Frankly, I don‘t think you are either, Chief.
    Just like just about anywhere else, a lot of the ‘downhilling‘ the CIC 
has done is because of politics. Not because they don‘t know what they‘re 
doing. Although you may have good arguement, Adam, I would humbly offer that 
you keep your opinions regarding who you see as incompetent personel, to 
yourself. Did you have to put yourself through ****  for YOUR capbadge? No. So 
don‘t whine about soemone else being given the same easy passage.
            -Matt B.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:58:12 -0800*
Francois,
Thanks for the response.  In response, yes my statement were a bit broad
and harsh.  I can convey though that much has changed in the cadet movement
since 81‘.  Its very frustrating when you tell cadets a good leader sets the
example and say for instance has a proper uniform, imagine the cadet WO‘s
frustration when an officer can not be bothered to do their uniform!  I do
agree that it is very kind of these individuals are paid for there time to
help with youth.  I didn‘t say that all the CIC is not a useful organisation
or anything like that.  I have never been denied a course from cadets, I‘m
the CWO and I worked for it!  My opinion has been formed around seeing some
of these individuals not doing their jobs, that email was a warning to
anyone who might me joining the CIC thinking that they are just like the
primary reserves.  I‘m the CWO of a squadron of 135, I have very competent
officers and senior NCM‘s I‘m bitching about my squadron, I‘m saying how
SOME squadron and training centres are run, I‘m expressing my frustration,
this is venting, something that a new CIC officer should see and understand
that good NCM‘s like good officers and are willing to work hard for them.
In reference to wearing a uniform and saluting, the BOC is 10 days long if
I‘m not mistaken, all that is required is a high school diploma and a
security check.  I know that w/o the CIC I wouldn‘t have gone a long way in
my young life, however every organisation and it member should be open to
constructive criticism yes mine was to harsh, "waste of a life" was used
figuratively hear what is said and instead of trying to pound some 17 year
old CWO into the ground think about what is said beyond the words!  I‘m a
very professional NCM and take pride in my uniform, I‘m pound of what I‘ve
achieved and I‘m expressing my opinion and trying to tell prospective CIC
officers that it is not the reg force or reserves, but totally different.
I‘m not in your corps, that‘s probably a good thing since we have locked
horns like this.  I have got what I wanted out of cadets, I‘m still in so
that I can train another generation of good solid NCM‘s to replace me.
A.J.M Wainwright
CWO
p.s to all others, the CIC is a group of very decided people who are kind
enough to work with cadets, they may not all be the best of the crop but yes
they do spend there time, I refer to those in it that couldn‘t give a damn
or don‘t respect or respect the service, the uniform or there position.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of F. A.
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 4:07 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
Adam,
        If you want to be taken seriously, may I suggest you make an effort
at
backing up your statements. Blanket statements like yours hold no water.
Explain
your point, perhaps even with a degree of reason. That said, CIL/CIC
officers
dedicate their time to individuals like you so that you can achieve often
difficult goals and make something of yourself. More often than not, they
commit
to volunteering twice as many hours as there are paid for. They have to put
with
parents who think of cadets as merely a baby-sitting service, other parents
have
very little in the way of raising their children, the cadets do it for them.
Still other cadets, whine and snivel about how slack the CIL/CIC officers
are.
Well, son, spend a week in their boots and I‘m sure you‘ll change your tune.
As
with any walk of life, there are the hangers-on and slack individuals, but
please believe me, that isn‘t just with the CIL/CIC, so don‘t tell me the
majority of them are ‘a waste of life‘. How do you justify your lofty
position
that they shouldn‘t be wearing a uniform or saluted? Wait until you join the
real world, boy will you be surprised! If you were in my cadet corps with
that
attitude, you wouldn‘t be a CWO much less a Cpl. What happened? Got turned
down
for a course? Didn‘t get what you wanted? That‘s life, suck it up!
Francois Arseneault
ex-cadet 1977-81
ex-reservist 1981-83
military contracter 1989- to date
ACL of C 1991 - to date
Adam Wainwright wrote:
> There are two types of CILofficers
>
> 1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
> and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers uniform
> much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
either
> solides sailors or airman
>
> 2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
> others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
> the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
>
> You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to
see
> how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
language
> training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
> CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
professionals
> that are very good and very much good CILofficers
>
> Your comments please -
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
> This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
> another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
> train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it is
> very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
> employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres located
> in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> Sent:   December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> To:     army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> Subject:        Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
> 3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> How long for ‘grunts‘?
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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>
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:12:46 -0800*
Thanks for the response matt.  No I haven‘t been put through ****  for my cap
badge, but I am qualified to wear it.  I find frustration in the CIC, which
have done lots of good in my cadet career.  Yes there are lots of great CIC
officers, I was trying to accent the point that there are some that aren‘t
so good.  Yeah my opinion was very strong, but as you said not totally
unfounded.  I know how much time it takes to be a GOOD cadet instructor, as
well is a ten day course enough?  I know about all the times constraints and
so on but I find as a cadet I end up very frustrated, "the few that taint
the many".  This is an open forum to through your opinions out into the
centre.   I‘m just saying that the requirements to be an officer in the CF
are not as high in the CIC, this is frustrating it could filter out a some
of the "few who taint t the many".  I do wish to withdraw the more harsh
comments, the life bit and so on.  I‘ve had to really work to get were I am,
I‘m frustrated when a Sgt from my Squ leaves cadets and comes back 4 months
later as a 2nd Louie!!??  You see what I‘m saying.  In a few years however
my views will have changed and matured.  I‘m expressing some immediate
dissatisfaction with an organisation.  That‘s for your comments though, I do
enjoy a solid debate.
- Adam W
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Juno847627709@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 4:38 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
I‘m just ending my cadet career with 2918LLACC in Leamington, Ontario. I‘m a
Sergeant. This last summer I went to a Cadet Leader Course, expecting my
officers to be much like how Adam described them. My platoon commander was
2Lt. **** A. Robinson, and I‘d do anything for him. He was probably about 35
and had only CIC military experience. He wasn‘t an ‘old hand‘. He was one of
the best leaders and best people of ever had the honour of being in the
presence of. He deserved every salute afforded him, and I only wish that
more
cadets understood how much time goes in to being a GOOD Cadet Instructor.
    I don‘t think I‘m in much of a position to tell the seasoned soldiers
and
other servicemen on this list if I think a Canadian Forces Officer is
imcompetent. Frankly, I don‘t think you are either, Chief.
    Just like just about anywhere else, a lot of the ‘downhilling‘ the CIC
has done is because of politics. Not because they don‘t know what they‘re
doing. Although you may have good arguement, Adam, I would humbly offer that
you keep your opinions regarding who you see as incompetent personel, to
yourself. Did you have to put yourself through ****  for YOUR capbadge? No.
So
don‘t whine about soemone else being given the same easy passage.
            -Matt B.
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:14:40 -0800*
as you will read Dave I REALLY revisited my comments, sorry about the scout
jab, its a commonality among cadets.
-Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of dave
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 4:19 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
As a former member of both the Regs and the Reserves, I take great offence
at you casting asparagus at Scouting...........I am a Scouting leader and
enjoy my volunteer time immensely.  I‘m sure your leaders deserve respect,
but you must first learn how to respect someone.....
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:47:04 -0800*
Mr.W.,
Thanks for that. You can see what I'm saying about the degrading of cadets
as a whole, I blame that on the leadership somewhat unfairly I know  Yes
its true there was nothing aimed at scouting I know that its a great
organisation and think it is very benefit for young people.
- Adam
p.s I was a little flustered and rushed when I responded spell checking

----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:18 PM
Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> As a former member of both the Regs and the Reserves, I take great offence
> at you casting asparagus at Scouting...........I am a Scouting leader and
> enjoy my volunteer time immensely.  I'm sure your leaders deserve respect,
> but you must first learn how to respect someone.....


----------



## army

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:05:34 *
Adam,
    What corps are you in? What courses have you done? I used to be a Cadet 
C.W.O., I was rsm of the Black Watch. Ever train in Gagetown? ValCartier?
Peter
>From: "Adam Wainwright" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800
>
>There are two types of CILofficers
>
>1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
>and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers uniform
>much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s 
>either
>solides sailors or airman
>
>2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
>others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
>the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
>
>You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
>orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to 
>see
>how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond 
>language
>training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
>louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
>CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some 
>professionals
>that are very good and very much good CILofficers
>
>Your comments please -
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
>Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
>Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
>To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
>
>This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
>another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
>train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it is
>very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
>employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres located
>in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
>movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
>Sentecember 3, 2000 6:50 PM
>To:army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject:Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
>3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
>How long for ‘grunts‘?
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:16:32 -0800*
>Scouting is a great organization for people of the age group that it applies
to, but Cadets, while not associated with Scouting, is "the next level" type of
thing.
That is one characterization.  Bear in mind the "age group" starts younger and
finishes older than cadets I think the last tier of Scouting ends at 20 or 21.
The focus of Scouting is different, so it‘s hard to compare "next level".  My
own experience is that my time in Scouts up to age 16 taught me nothing about
drill but more about basic fieldcraft in the outdoor survival sense of the
word than any cadets I knew at the time.  My cadet friends viewed Scouts as
immature in every sense of the word, chiefly it seems because we couldn‘t
march in time on Remembrance Day.  For my part, I would have chafed under their
amount of adult and peer supervision.  Even my army reserve service hasn‘t been
able to teach me as much about simple outdoor skills.  That said, a cadet who is
able to attend specialty training courses will should attain higher levels of
particular skills.
A significant advantage of cadets is that not everyone can afford Scouting for
their children.
Brad Sallows
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:13:02 -0800*
I‘m in 692 Air Canada, it‘s air.  Only because there wasn‘t an army unit in
my area at the time.  RSM of black watch, when?  What do you think of the
cadet system now?
-Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Peter deVries
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 2:06 AM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
Adam,
    What corps are you in? What courses have you done? I used to be a Cadet
C.W.O., I was rsm of the Black Watch. Ever train in Gagetown? ValCartier?
Peter
>From: "Adam Wainwright" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800
>
>There are two types of CILofficers
>
>1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
>and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers uniform
>much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
>either
>solides sailors or airman
>
>2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
>others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
>the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
>
>You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
>orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to
>see
>how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
>language
>training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
>louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
>CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
>professionals
>that are very good and very much good CILofficers
>
>Your comments please -
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
>Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
>Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
>To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
>
>This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
>another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
>train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it is
>very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
>employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres located
>in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
>movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
>Sentecember 3, 2000 6:50 PM
>To:army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject:Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
>3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
>How long for ‘grunts‘?
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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_________________________________________________________________________
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:20:31 *
Francois,
    I to was a cadet for many years, and was recommended for a commision in 
the CIC. I know a lot of Slack CIC officers and I know some great, inspiring 
CIC officers. Cadets has gone down the tube in the last few years and often 
people live in areas, where they don‘t see much variety in the officers. 
SOmetimes in remote areas, you can only deal with a certain few. Some people 
have bad experiences. n no way am I agreeing with Adam, but I know where he 
is coming from. For a while I was in a corps in a remote area with a couple 
of Officers who didn‘t know what was going on. Some of them are the exact 
opposite of what they teach you to be in cadets. Summer camps are great for 
finding out what cadet camps are like, but not everyone has the opportunity 
to go each summer, I know a lot of my friends had to work on their parents 
farms in the summer. And you don‘t have to have summer camps to be a C.W.O. 
anymore. Just to let you know that not all cadet corps are perfect.
Just so you know, I‘m not critisising anyone, just sharing my thoughts, 
which is what a list like this is all about.
Peter de Vries
Cadet-1994-1999
C/RSM cc 254 Black Watch RHR.
Basic 95
CL 96
CLI Patrolling 97
PERT 98
Staff Patrolling Adventure 99
>From: "F. A." 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:06:45 -0700
>
>Adam,
>
>         If you want to be taken seriously, may I suggest you make an 
>effort at
>backing up your statements. Blanket statements like yours hold no water. 
>Explain
>your point, perhaps even with a degree of reason. That said, CIL/CIC 
>officers
>dedicate their time to individuals like you so that you can achieve often
>difficult goals and make something of yourself. More often than not, they 
>commit
>to volunteering twice as many hours as there are paid for. They have to put 
>with
>parents who think of cadets as merely a baby-sitting service, other parents 
>have
>very little in the way of raising their children, the cadets do it for 
>them.
>Still other cadets, whine and snivel about how slack the CIL/CIC officers 
>are.
>Well, son, spend a week in their boots and I‘m sure you‘ll change your 
>tune. As
>with any walk of life, there are the hangers-on and slack individuals, but
>please believe me, that isn‘t just with the CIL/CIC, so don‘t tell me the
>majority of them are ‘a waste of life‘. How do you justify your lofty 
>position
>that they shouldn‘t be wearing a uniform or saluted? Wait until you join 
>the
>real world, boy will you be surprised! If you were in my cadet corps with 
>that
>attitude, you wouldn‘t be a CWO much less a Cpl. What happened? Got turned 
>down
>for a course? Didn‘t get what you wanted? That‘s life, suck it up!
>
>
>Francois Arseneault
>ex-cadet 1977-81
>ex-reservist 1981-83
>military contracter 1989- to date
>ACL of C 1991 - to date
>
>
>
>Adam Wainwright wrote:
>
> > There are two types of CILofficers
> >
> > 1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a 
>cadet
> > and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers 
>uniform
> > much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s 
>either
> > solides sailors or airman
> >
> > 2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
> > others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses 
>are
> > the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
> >
> > You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> > orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to 
>see
> > how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond 
>language
> > training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> > louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
> > CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some 
>professionals
> > that are very good and very much good CILofficers
> >
> > Your comments please -
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> > To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> > Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> > This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
> > another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is 
>to
> > train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it 
>is
> > very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
> > employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres 
>located
> > in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> > movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:   Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> > Sent:   December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> > To:     army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > Subject:        Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> > 3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> > How long for ‘grunts‘?
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:23:08 -0800*
Brad,
 In those comments we were viewing things from a discipline  order side of
things I think.
Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Bradley Sallows
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 6:17 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>Scouting is a great organization for people of the age group that it
applies
to, but Cadets, while not associated with Scouting, is "the next level" type
of
thing.
That is one characterization.  Bear in mind the "age group" starts younger
and
finishes older than cadets I think the last tier of Scouting ends at 20 or
21.
The focus of Scouting is different, so it‘s hard to compare "next level".
My
own experience is that my time in Scouts up to age 16 taught me nothing
about
drill but more about basic fieldcraft in the outdoor survival sense of the
word than any cadets I knew at the time.  My cadet friends viewed Scouts as
immature in every sense of the word, chiefly it seems because we couldn‘t
march in time on Remembrance Day.  For my part, I would have chafed under
their
amount of adult and peer supervision.  Even my army reserve service hasn‘t
been
able to teach me as much about simple outdoor skills.  That said, a cadet
who is
able to attend specialty training courses will should attain higher levels
of
particular skills.
A significant advantage of cadets is that not everyone can afford Scouting
for
their children.
Brad Sallows
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:38:25 *
Adam-
    I was RSM of the Black Watch in 98/99. In terms of what I think of the 
cadet system now? I think that it has gone downhill. I agree with some of 
the other responses on this list. I think, in my case the Canadians in 
charge of the cadet system are taking the army out of army cadets. I still 
feel that it‘s the best youth organization in Canada, but beside the uniform 
and drill, it‘s getting to the point where you can‘t distinguish it from 
other organisations I owe a lot to cadet and defend it in front of my peers 
in the primary reserve, I am in 1st battalion Nova Scotia Highlanders. A 
lot of the old breed cadets are gone now and cadets is changing rapidly, I 
haven‘t been involved for a while now, but what I see from the outside isn‘t 
all that promising. If you look at the British cadet system you will see 
what I mean, they train like our reserves. I could go on all day, but I will 
close with this. Cadets made me who I am. I think you have to put in 
something before you get something out of it.
Peter
>From: "Adam Wainwright" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:13:02 -0800
>
>I‘m in 692 Air Canada, it‘s air.  Only because there wasn‘t an army unit in
>my area at the time.  RSM of black watch, when?  What do you think of the
>cadet system now?
>
>-Adam
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
>Behalf Of Peter deVries
>Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 2:06 AM
>To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
>
>Adam,
>     What corps are you in? What courses have you done? I used to be a 
>Cadet
>C.W.O., I was rsm of the Black Watch. Ever train in Gagetown? ValCartier?
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >To: 
> >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800
> >
> >There are two types of CILofficers
> >
> >1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
> >and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers 
>uniform
> >much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
> >either
> >solides sailors or airman
> >
> >2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
> >others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
> >the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
> >
> >You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> >orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to
> >see
> >how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
> >language
> >training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> >louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
> >CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
> >professionals
> >that are very good and very much good CILofficers
> >
> >Your comments please -
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> >Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> >Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> >To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> >
> >This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
> >another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
> >train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it 
>is
> >very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
> >employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres 
>located
> >in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> >movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> >Sentecember 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> >To:army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >Subject:Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> >3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> >How long for ‘grunts‘?
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >message body.
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
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----------



## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:43:07 EST*
Spot on, Peter.
        So what do youcollectively think the future is going to be like for 
the Cadet Movement?
Will it turn into a bunch of whining children, the only thing separating them 
from other youths being the headdress?
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----------



## army

Posted by *Jean-Francois Menicucci <menicucci@videotron.ca>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:51:54 -0500*
I can‘t really talk about the cadets because I never joined them or had any
relation what so ever with them,
but two of my defensive linemen are cadets, they are in the Sea Cadets, and I
call them the Squids 
They seem to hate that nick  wonder why . When I talk with them about the
cadets they seem to be confuse, they like theirs activities, but hates their
instructors, the reasons that was brought on here this evening was approx
the same has mentionned.
Of what I noticed, they like the movement but hate the leadership, they also
complained the lack of support and
establishement of discipline .................... etc etc
etc.....................
Peter deVries wrote:
> Adam-
>     I was RSM of the Black Watch in 98/99. In terms of what I think of the
> cadet system now? I think that it has gone downhill. I agree with some of
> the other responses on this list. I think, in my case the Canadians in
> charge of the cadet system are taking the army out of army cadets. I still
> feel that it‘s the best youth organization in Canada, but beside the uniform
> and drill, it‘s getting to the point where you can‘t distinguish it from
> other organisations I owe a lot to cadet and defend it in front of my peers
> in the primary reserve, I am in 1st battalion Nova Scotia Highlanders. A
> lot of the old breed cadets are gone now and cadets is changing rapidly, I
> haven‘t been involved for a while now, but what I see from the outside isn‘t
> all that promising. If you look at the British cadet system you will see
> what I mean, they train like our reserves. I could go on all day, but I will
> close with this. Cadets made me who I am. I think you have to put in
> something before you get something out of it.
> Peter
>
> >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >To: 
> >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:13:02 -0800
> >
> >I‘m in 692 Air Canada, it‘s air.  Only because there wasn‘t an army unit in
> >my area at the time.  RSM of black watch, when?  What do you think of the
> >cadet system now?
> >
> >-Adam
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> >Behalf Of Peter deVries
> >Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 2:06 AM
> >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> >
> >Adam,
> >     What corps are you in? What courses have you done? I used to be a
> >Cadet
> >C.W.O., I was rsm of the Black Watch. Ever train in Gagetown? ValCartier?
> >Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >To: 
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800
> > >
> > >There are two types of CILofficers
> > >
> > >1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
> > >and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers
> >uniform
> > >much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
> > >either
> > >solides sailors or airman
> > >
> > >2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
> > >others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
> > >the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
> > >
> > >You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> > >orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to
> > >see
> > >how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
> > >language
> > >training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> > >louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
> > >CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
> > >professionals
> > >that are very good and very much good CILofficers
> > >
> > >Your comments please -
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > >Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> > >Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> > >To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >
> > >
> > >This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
> > >another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
> > >train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it
> >is
> > >very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
> > >employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres
> >located
> > >in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> > >movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:        Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> > >Sent:        December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> > >To:  army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >Subject:     Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >
> > >3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> > >How long for ‘grunts‘?
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > >message body.
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > >message body.
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
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> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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> >message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:57:06 -0800*
I think that the cadet system will eventually and hopefully swing back,
that‘s what I hope.  In reality it will probably stay as it is.
-Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Juno847627709@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 6:43 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
Spot on, Peter.
        So what do youcollectively think the future is going to be like
for
the Cadet Movement?
Will it turn into a bunch of whining children, the only thing separating
them
from other youths being the headdress?
--------------------------------------------------------
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:59:42 -0800*
Totally agree peter,
Its is going downhill, what is the reason though?  It is by far the best
many the most supported youth organisations in Canada.  I hope that it
will swing back again.
-Adam
Peter deVries wrote:
> Adam-
>     I was RSM of the Black Watch in 98/99. In terms of what I think of the
> cadet system now? I think that it has gone downhill. I agree with some of
> the other responses on this list. I think, in my case the Canadians in
> charge of the cadet system are taking the army out of army cadets. I still
> feel that it‘s the best youth organization in Canada, but beside the
uniform
> and drill, it‘s getting to the point where you can‘t distinguish it from
> other organisations I owe a lot to cadet and defend it in front of my
peers
> in the primary reserve, I am in 1st battalion Nova Scotia Highlanders. A
> lot of the old breed cadets are gone now and cadets is changing rapidly, I
> haven‘t been involved for a while now, but what I see from the outside
isn‘t
> all that promising. If you look at the British cadet system you will see
> what I mean, they train like our reserves. I could go on all day, but I
will
> close with this. Cadets made me who I am. I think you have to put in
> something before you get something out of it.
> Peter
>
> >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >To: 
> >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:13:02 -0800
> >
> >I‘m in 692 Air Canada, it‘s air.  Only because there wasn‘t an army unit
in
> >my area at the time.  RSM of black watch, when?  What do you think of the
> >cadet system now?
> >
> >-Adam
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> >Behalf Of Peter deVries
> >Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 2:06 AM
> >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> >
> >Adam,
> >     What corps are you in? What courses have you done? I used to be a
> >Cadet
> >C.W.O., I was rsm of the Black Watch. Ever train in Gagetown? ValCartier?
> >Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >To: 
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800
> > >
> > >There are two types of CILofficers
> > >
> > >1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a
cadet
> > >and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers
> >uniform
> > >much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
> > >either
> > >solides sailors or airman
> > >
> > >2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all
the
> > >others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses
are
> > >the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
> > >
> > >You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> > >orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic
to
> > >see
> > >how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
> > >language
> > >training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> > >louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for
one
> > >CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
> > >professionals
> > >that are very good and very much good CILofficers
> > >
> > >Your comments please -
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > >Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> > >Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> > >To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >
> > >
> > >This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
> > >another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is
to
> > >train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it
> >is
> > >very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
> > >employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres
> >located
> > >in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> > >movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From:        Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> > >Sent:        December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> > >To:  army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >Subject:     Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >
> > >3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> > >How long for ‘grunts‘?
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > >message body.
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > >message body.
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
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> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:15:40 -0800*
I understand the frustrations you must feel Adam.........I took the Scouting
jab in jest..asparagas.  However, if there are members of your unit who
respect you, then you should set the example.....Every organization has a
few weak links, or bad apples.  It just makes it more important that you are
totally professional in your demeanor.  which includes an open forum such as
this web site.  Maybe the pace to vent would be at a gathering of your mess
mates.  some of your CIC‘s maybe be lurking members here, which could be
awkward.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:20:41 -0800*
Again Greg, I thank you for your comments.  Adam has done a good job of
clarifying his views.
I think all of the Military has changed over the past years, and it will
continue to do so.  It is not the same service my grandfather joined in
1915, and certainly not the same my Dad joined.  I have two brothers that
are still in, and the stories they tell are horrifying.  I have only been
out 12 years and it does not sound the same to me.
We must accept the changes that come with progress, even if we do not agree
with them.  They may one day be hardened in the crucibles of fire, that is
when we can have a debrief and see if they work.
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----------



## army

Posted by *JZimme1017@aol.com* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:21:01 EST*
Dear Sirs:
    I am an American Combat Infantry soldier, and find your list most 
enlightening. I‘ve never responded to any of your postings. I think that the 
mere fact that you even have a Cadet System is GREAT. When I was a young man, 
prior to military service age I joined Civil Air Patrol at age 12. It was all 
we had. We did several exchanges with Canadian Air Cadets out of Mississagua, 
ONT. Please forgive the spelling. We were AMAZED that they had their 
uniforms and provided, and furthermore that they had opportunities to earn 
money at summer camps. We on the other hand had to pay for all of our 
uniforms, and had to pay to attend all of our summer camps. Our adults were 
simply called Senior Members. Most had NO military experience what so ever. I 
too used to bitch and complain about their half assed ness. I am now 34 years 
old and am in the US Army Reserve. Some of my closest friends to this day are 
guys that I served as a Cadet with. All of us in our group went in the Active 
Duty Military for at least some period of time. Many of us are now in the 
Reserve System.  We had all maintained liaisons with Major Dave Dean, who had 
been one of our Senior Members. He had been prior 101st Airborne when they 
were paratroopers. Major Dean was easy to like because of his old Airborne 
stories. We all despised Major Eugene Ashley at the time. The man had his 
heart in the right place, but as a corporate executive he knew paperwork and 
that is what he had cadets do was paperwork, and planning. We hated it. None 
of our Senior Members ever got paid a penny, nor did they even earn points 
towards a retirement. There really was no incentive at all for them to 
participate. I‘ve since made peace with Gene Ashley. He did teach me a ****  
of a lot of real world useful stuff. We even exchange Christmas Cards now. 
What I‘m saying is that you Canadians are lucky to even have a Cadet System, 
and what you cadets bitch about now, you might look back on one day and be 
thankful for. Because of my cadet experiences I was Honor Graduate in Army 
Basic Training, which set the path for me to finish Honor Graduate of several 
other military courses, and helped me to win honors as Regimental Soldier of 
the Year and NCO of the Year. My experience of being a cadet was that it 
wasn‘t so much what our Senior Members did or didn‘t do, it was how WE the 
Cadets chose to run our program, and enforce our discipline. 
                                                God Bless, 
                                                         and Happy Holidays,
                                                         John K. Zimmerman
                                                         former Cadet
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:29:04 -0800*
Maybe you could help me out on this Adam...As a CWO, can you not have input
into the dress and deportment of your CIC officers. If not, who is?
I have not been a Cadet, but have spent time with former Cadets, so I have
a very small bank of knowledge about them...I do have a son however, who may
consider them in the future.  How can I as a parent make sure he is going to
be exposed to good examples of Cadet leadership.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:33:32 -0800*
you wrote
"totally agree peter,
Its is going downhill, what is the reason though?  It is by far the best
many the most supported youth organisations in Canada.  I hope that it
will swing back again."
My theory on the reason:
I think that back in the 80‘s the people of Canada, decided we in the
services were actually "Human".  Then they issued us rights, whether we
wanted them or not.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:55:22 *
Adam,
   The way I see it, is that in the military, things often sway too far one 
way, and when they try to correct them they they make them sway too far the 
other way. When I joined the cadets in 1994, we were really aressive, we 
wanted to be trained the "old" way. Many of todays civilians see that 
agressiveness in a youth and can‘t understand it, so they condemn it. I feel 
that some high ranking officer that are involved with cadets haven‘t 
experianced what its like to be a 12 year old cadet who‘s attraction to the 
military is what they see in the movies or from stories they hear from old 
breed soldiers. Why anyone would want to join cadets for the sole reason to 
do drill, spend the night after school in a classroom doing green star 
lessons and getting jacked by kids two years older than them. There has to 
be an attraction. FOr me it, was field exercises. I loved them, I loved the 
war games, and I loved roughing it and being hard on my body. When I saw the 
instructors and even though they were rough, they motivated me, there snobby 
attitudes and their sense of power amazed me as a 13 year old kid. I knew 
then, the first day I entered the Black Watch armoury on Bleury Street in 
Montreal, that I was going to be a soldier and thats why i‘m waiting for the 
next reg force battle school to start up.
What I‘m getting at is that, with the new system of cadets, there is no 
motivation, no esprit de corps, no drive. And Now, the cadet system is going 
down the hill, it will probably turn around some time and go to far in 
another direction. I‘m not sure if I‘m making any sense or if anyone can 
understand my rambling. But what I‘m saying is that If your going to have 
army cadets you might aswell let them feel like they are in the army. 
Because without that, It‘s nothing more than an ordinary youth group. 
Nothing wrong with ordinary youth groups, but certain people are attracted 
to the army, air force, navy, and want to express there interest, thats why 
cadets are so beneficial, and it saddens me to see them in a state like 
this.
Peter
>From: "Adam Wainwright" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:59:42 -0800
>
>Totally agree peter,
>Its is going downhill, what is the reason though?  It is by far the best
>many the most supported youth organisations in Canada.  I hope that it
>will swing back again.
>
>-Adam
>
>Peter deVries wrote:
>
> > Adam-
> >     I was RSM of the Black Watch in 98/99. In terms of what I think of 
>the
> > cadet system now? I think that it has gone downhill. I agree with some 
>of
> > the other responses on this list. I think, in my case the Canadians in
> > charge of the cadet system are taking the army out of army cadets. I 
>still
> > feel that it‘s the best youth organization in Canada, but beside the
>uniform
> > and drill, it‘s getting to the point where you can‘t distinguish it from
> > other organisations I owe a lot to cadet and defend it in front of my
>peers
> > in the primary reserve, I am in 1st battalion Nova Scotia Highlanders. 
>A
> > lot of the old breed cadets are gone now and cadets is changing rapidly, 
>I
> > haven‘t been involved for a while now, but what I see from the outside
>isn‘t
> > all that promising. If you look at the British cadet system you will see
> > what I mean, they train like our reserves. I could go on all day, but I
>will
> > close with this. Cadets made me who I am. I think you have to put in
> > something before you get something out of it.
> > Peter
> >
> > >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >To: 
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:13:02 -0800
> > >
> > >I‘m in 692 Air Canada, it‘s air.  Only because there wasn‘t an army 
>unit
>in
> > >my area at the time.  RSM of black watch, when?  What do you think of 
>the
> > >cadet system now?
> > >
> > >-Adam
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > >Behalf Of Peter deVries
> > >Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 2:06 AM
> > >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >
> > >
> > >Adam,
> > >     What corps are you in? What courses have you done? I used to be a
> > >Cadet
> > >C.W.O., I was rsm of the Black Watch. Ever train in Gagetown? 
>ValCartier?
> > >Peter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> > > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > >To: 
> > > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > > >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800
> > > >
> > > >There are two types of CILofficers
> > > >
> > > >1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a
>cadet
> > > >and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers
> > >uniform
> > > >much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
> > > >either
> > > >solides sailors or airman
> > > >
> > > >2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all
>the
> > > >others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses
>are
> > > >the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
> > > >
> > > >You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> > > >orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic
>to
> > > >see
> > > >how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
> > > >language
> > > >training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> > > >louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for
>one
> > > >CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
> > > >professionals
> > > >that are very good and very much good CILofficers
> > > >
> > > >Your comments please -
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
>[mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > > >Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> > > >Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> > > >To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> > > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there 
>is
> > > >another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task 
>is
>to
> > > >train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and 
>it
> > >is
> > > >very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada 
>for
> > > >employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres
> > >located
> > > >in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> > > >movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From:        Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> > > >Sent:        December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> > > >To:  army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > >Subject:     Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > > >
> > > >3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> > > >How long for ‘grunts‘?
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > >message body.
> > >
> > 
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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> >
> > 
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> >
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>
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:20:17 -0800*
Peter,
 I couldn‘t agree more.  I join for the some reason, I loved roughing it.
My grandfather put me in air cadets, he was a solider and didn‘t want me to
be.  Well I do I want to be a solider more than anything, I love the
challenge that the military offers.  Your right young men and women don‘t
join cadets to sit around, they want a taste of the military so they join.
I was there once, be torn apart by drill instructors, smashed up on field
exercises and loved every minute of it.  I‘m just trying to keep the
discipline around.  I know that cadets has changed, I changed a little with
it but keep some old good stuff.  "You don‘t win wars w/o discipline" well
cadet are not there to fight wars but they certainly are a military
organisation.  You right about this new system.  There are a few mine
cadets corps that are very well disciplined.  Its getting harder and harder
to keep that up.  I do think that cadets is awesome.  It done so much for
me, I‘m going to try and get my pilots licence this summer fingers x‘d
still I will leave in a year or so and then there will be no one to keep it
up.  Sad really, it like all that we ‘the old system‘ have built is slipped
away.
- Adam
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Peter deVries
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 3:55 AM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
Adam,
   The way I see it, is that in the military, things often sway too far one
way, and when they try to correct them they they make them sway too far the
other way. When I joined the cadets in 1994, we were really aressive, we
wanted to be trained the "old" way. Many of todays civilians see that
agressiveness in a youth and can‘t understand it, so they condemn it. I feel
that some high ranking officer that are involved with cadets haven‘t
experianced what its like to be a 12 year old cadet who‘s attraction to the
military is what they see in the movies or from stories they hear from old
breed soldiers. Why anyone would want to join cadets for the sole reason to
do drill, spend the night after school in a classroom doing green star
lessons and getting jacked by kids two years older than them. There has to
be an attraction. FOr me it, was field exercises. I loved them, I loved the
war games, and I loved roughing it and being hard on my body. When I saw the
instructors and even though they were rough, they motivated me, there snobby
attitudes and their sense of power amazed me as a 13 year old kid. I knew
then, the first day I entered the Black Watch armoury on Bleury Street in
Montreal, that I was going to be a soldier and thats why i‘m waiting for the
next reg force battle school to start up.
What I‘m getting at is that, with the new system of cadets, there is no
motivation, no esprit de corps, no drive. And Now, the cadet system is going
down the hill, it will probably turn around some time and go to far in
another direction. I‘m not sure if I‘m making any sense or if anyone can
understand my rambling. But what I‘m saying is that If your going to have
army cadets you might aswell let them feel like they are in the army.
Because without that, It‘s nothing more than an ordinary youth group.
Nothing wrong with ordinary youth groups, but certain people are attracted
to the army, air force, navy, and want to express there interest, thats why
cadets are so beneficial, and it saddens me to see them in a state like
this.
Peter
>From: "Adam Wainwright" 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:59:42 -0800
>
>Totally agree peter,
>Its is going downhill, what is the reason though?  It is by far the best
>many the most supported youth organisations in Canada.  I hope that it
>will swing back again.
>
>-Adam
>
>Peter deVries wrote:
>
> > Adam-
> >     I was RSM of the Black Watch in 98/99. In terms of what I think of
>the
> > cadet system now? I think that it has gone downhill. I agree with some
>of
> > the other responses on this list. I think, in my case the Canadians in
> > charge of the cadet system are taking the army out of army cadets. I
>still
> > feel that it‘s the best youth organization in Canada, but beside the
>uniform
> > and drill, it‘s getting to the point where you can‘t distinguish it from
> > other organisations I owe a lot to cadet and defend it in front of my
>peers
> > in the primary reserve, I am in 1st battalion Nova Scotia Highlanders.
>A
> > lot of the old breed cadets are gone now and cadets is changing rapidly,
>I
> > haven‘t been involved for a while now, but what I see from the outside
>isn‘t
> > all that promising. If you look at the British cadet system you will see
> > what I mean, they train like our reserves. I could go on all day, but I
>will
> > close with this. Cadets made me who I am. I think you have to put in
> > something before you get something out of it.
> > Peter
> >
> > >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >To: 
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:13:02 -0800
> > >
> > >I‘m in 692 Air Canada, it‘s air.  Only because there wasn‘t an army
>unit
>in
> > >my area at the time.  RSM of black watch, when?  What do you think of
>the
> > >cadet system now?
> > >
> > >-Adam
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > >Behalf Of Peter deVries
> > >Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 2:06 AM
> > >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > >
> > >
> > >Adam,
> > >     What corps are you in? What courses have you done? I used to be a
> > >Cadet
> > >C.W.O., I was rsm of the Black Watch. Ever train in Gagetown?
>ValCartier?
> > >Peter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Adam Wainwright" 
> > > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > >To: 
> > > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > > >Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:32:51 -0800
> > > >
> > > >There are two types of CILofficers
> > > >
> > > >1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a
>cadet
> > > >and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers
> > >uniform
> > > >much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
> > > >either
> > > >solides sailors or airman
> > > >
> > > >2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all
>the
> > > >others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses
>are
> > > >the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
> > > >
> > > >You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> > > >orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic
>to
> > > >see
> > > >how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
> > > >language
> > > >training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> > > >louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for
>one
> > > >CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
> > > >professionals
> > > >that are very good and very much good CILofficers
> > > >
> > > >Your comments please -
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>[mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > > >Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> > > >Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> > > >To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> > > >Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there
>is
> > > >another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task
>is
>to
> > > >train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and
>it
> > >is
> > > >very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada
>for
> > > >employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres
> > >located
> > > >in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> > > >movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From:        Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> > > >Sent:        December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> > > >To:  army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > >Subject:     Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> > > >
> > > >3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> > > >How long for ‘grunts‘?
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:46:47 -0800*
Peter, the Grandfather I spoke of earlier, was a Blackwatch in 1915....He
had a "Thistle" tattooed on his inner leg.
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## army

Posted by *"C.M. Crawford" <cm_crawford@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:20:20 -0500*
Adam,
I feel your frustration with your CIC officers, I have experienced the same 
sort of frustratation with some of the junior officers in my unit. What I 
think you need to under stand is that they are new to their position and in 
many cases new to the military. I am sure that you cant say that you were 
perfect in all aspects when you first joined cadets, so why do you expect 
your officers to be ? I am aware of the age diffrence but there is still a 
learning curve, time and help from senoir NCO‘s such as your self are the 
only things that will help. I had a platoon comander that had only taken his 
basic officer tranning and no other courses, he was grossly under qualified 
for his position but as all good officers are he was reseptive to the 
attitude of his troops , he quckly learned how to dress, act and run feild 
ex‘s . But this took just over a year and the patients of the platoon and 
all NCO‘s .
You should  try and help out your officers as much as possible, and be 
patient. They are most likely not involved in cadets because of their love 
for the military but thier love for helping children , and if you ask me 
that is more important in anyone involved in the leadership of cadets than 
old school military values.
Some thing else that you should be aware of is that the PRes is also "going 
down hill" every year courses are shortened and standards are slakened , 
this is so the military will be more apeling to young people . I dont 
necessarly agree with this but it is increasing the numbers , I think that 
cadets is simply miroring the PRes and the days of jacking kids and sarcing 
them stiff are long gone, we are looking at a more user friendly cadet core 
and PRes.
I hope that you dont look at this as an atempt to "slam " you , I am only 
trying to help you help your officers.
chris.
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## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:14:57 -0800*
Chris,
I don‘t take it as a ‘slam‘ at all, if you saw the messages that went back
and forth last night there were far worse.  All in all I just feel the cadet
system, lacks the discipline it once had, that made it what it is - a
special organisation not just another run of the mill kids get together
club.  My frustration are, firstly give officers time to learn, keep them as
CI‘s or Ocdts for a while!  Don‘t through bars on there shoulder and expect
them to ‘learn as they go‘ Let them be ast TRG O or some other position that
they may learn!  Just I had to come up through the ranks, they must gain all
the knowledge as well, it being fair to new officers as well.  I also would
like to see the rule on the min age of CIC officers changed.  I know of a
case where a sgt left a squadron, in oct and came back to the squadron in
April as a 2lt.   There was a few senior cadets which this person didn‘t
like and really hassled them and made there lives miserable...its that which
I find fury.  I do know that it is a youth club or sorts.  But I just want
to keep it above the rest of them, a little pride!  I‘m blessed with a great
unit, I couldn‘t ask for more I have wonderful officers and staff.  I‘m just
rasing the issue for all those cadet NCM‘s that are stuck with less than
great officers - I know the CIC isn‘t perfect, the are 10 slack cadets for
every slack officer, but this as was mentioned is life.  Great to hear your
views.
- ADAM
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of C.M. Crawford
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 11:20 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
Adam,
I feel your frustration with your CIC officers, I have experienced the same
sort of frustratation with some of the junior officers in my unit. What I
think you need to under stand is that they are new to their position and in
many cases new to the military. I am sure that you cant say that you were
perfect in all aspects when you first joined cadets, so why do you expect
your officers to be ? I am aware of the age diffrence but there is still a
learning curve, time and help from senoir NCO‘s such as your self are the
only things that will help. I had a platoon comander that had only taken his
basic officer tranning and no other courses, he was grossly under qualified
for his position but as all good officers are he was reseptive to the
attitude of his troops , he quckly learned how to dress, act and run feild
ex‘s . But this took just over a year and the patients of the platoon and
all NCO‘s .
You should  try and help out your officers as much as possible, and be
patient. They are most likely not involved in cadets because of their love
for the military but thier love for helping children , and if you ask me
that is more important in anyone involved in the leadership of cadets than
old school military values.
Some thing else that you should be aware of is that the PRes is also "going
down hill" every year courses are shortened and standards are slakened ,
this is so the military will be more apeling to young people . I dont
necessarly agree with this but it is increasing the numbers , I think that
cadets is simply miroring the PRes and the days of jacking kids and sarcing
them stiff are long gone, we are looking at a more user friendly cadet core
and PRes.
I hope that you dont look at this as an atempt to "slam " you , I am only
trying to help you help your officers.
chris.
_________________________________________________________________________
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----------



## army

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:38:36 -0700*
Adam,
        First of all let me state, I respect your opinion and your integrity and I‘m
glad you replied with such a well thought response. Things indeed have changed since
‘81, they have also remained the same. One issue that underlies the slowly altering
path of the cadet movement is beyond the cadets and CIC itself, that is political
interference. It can be subtle or obvious, example: the removal of virtually every
indoor small arms range in armouries and units across the country. Another example,
the removal of the large bore program for army cadets replaced by the Daisy air
rifle program for all 3 elements. What does this do for the army cadet program? Is
it fair? In that case, why can‘t army cadets use the gliding camps air or the
sailing camps sea? I‘m not trying to start another thread on these examples, but
more so making a point.
        So much has changed in my day and in the years previous. I recall there was
an awful CI who became a CIL officer in my unit. The senior cadets recognized he was
incompetent and unprofessional. They went through the chain of command and the Cadet
League. That officer was fired in less than 2 weeks. If there is a serious problem
with an officer, you do have recourse. But it has to be valid.
        Your original post was quite broad, but you do explain that you have good
officers, that‘s encouraging. When I was 17, I too thought I knew oh so much more
than some officers. But years later I realized I only knew what I knew because of
them. I hope that your resentment towards young ‘2nd louies‘ softens a bit, how long
do you think they should stay at the rank of O/Cdt? You have to see it from the
other side. If  I were informed that it would be an extra 2-3 years before I was
promoted, I‘d have second thoughts, especially if I brought with me all the courses
required for promotion. You‘ve pointed out ‘one‘ former cadet that came back as a
2/Lt, is this your only example or is your area rife with this situation? That
changes the parameters depending on your answer and would explain why you‘re so
annoyed. Remember this, that young 2/Lt can only go so far with his attitude and
treatment of other cadets. The Karma Credit Plan will kick into effect sooner than
later.
        Having been working at Vernon Army Cadet Camp on and off since 1991, I‘ve
watched as many young officers and old along with staff cadets, reg force and
reservists help train the 1500  cadets that attend courses there every summer. I‘m
quite confident that a very high majority are switched on, the very few that aren‘t,
don‘t return.
        If we had been in the same unit, we probably would have locked horns, but
I‘m sure it would have been for the better. Having read your contributions on this
thread, I believe that we‘re both operating from the same side.
best regards,
Francois Arseneault
Adam Wainwright wrote:
> Francois,
>         Thanks for the response.  In response, yes my statement were a bit broad
> and harsh.  I can convey though that much has changed in the cadet movement
> since 81‘.  Its very frustrating when you tell cadets a good leader sets the
> example and say for instance has a proper uniform, imagine the cadet WO‘s
> frustration when an officer can not be bothered to do their uniform!  I do
> agree that it is very kind of these individuals are paid for there time to
> help with youth.  I didn‘t say that all the CIC is not a useful organisation
> or anything like that.  I have never been denied a course from cadets, I‘m
> the CWO and I worked for it!  My opinion has been formed around seeing some
> of these individuals not doing their jobs, that email was a warning to
> anyone who might me joining the CIC thinking that they are just like the
> primary reserves.  I‘m the CWO of a squadron of 135, I have very competent
> officers and senior NCM‘s I‘m bitching about my squadron, I‘m saying how
> SOME squadron and training centres are run, I‘m expressing my frustration,
> this is venting, something that a new CIC officer should see and understand
> that good NCM‘s like good officers and are willing to work hard for them.
> In reference to wearing a uniform and saluting, the BOC is 10 days long if
> I‘m not mistaken, all that is required is a high school diploma and a
> security check.  I know that w/o the CIC I wouldn‘t have gone a long way in
> my young life, however every organisation and it member should be open to
> constructive criticism yes mine was to harsh, "waste of a life" was used
> figuratively hear what is said and instead of trying to pound some 17 year
> old CWO into the ground think about what is said beyond the words!  I‘m a
> very professional NCM and take pride in my uniform, I‘m pound of what I‘ve
> achieved and I‘m expressing my opinion and trying to tell prospective CIC
> officers that it is not the reg force or reserves, but totally different.
> I‘m not in your corps, that‘s probably a good thing since we have locked
> horns like this.  I have got what I wanted out of cadets, I‘m still in so
> that I can train another generation of good solid NCM‘s to replace me.
>
> A.J.M Wainwright
> CWO
>
> p.s to all others, the CIC is a group of very decided people who are kind
> enough to work with cadets, they may not all be the best of the crop but yes
> they do spend there time, I refer to those in it that couldn‘t give a damn
> or don‘t respect or respect the service, the uniform or there position.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> Behalf Of F. A.
> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 4:07 PM
> To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
>
> Adam,
>
>         If you want to be taken seriously, may I suggest you make an effort
> at
> backing up your statements. Blanket statements like yours hold no water.
> Explain
> your point, perhaps even with a degree of reason. That said, CIL/CIC
> officers
> dedicate their time to individuals like you so that you can achieve often
> difficult goals and make something of yourself. More often than not, they
> commit
> to volunteering twice as many hours as there are paid for. They have to put
> with
> parents who think of cadets as merely a baby-sitting service, other parents
> have
> very little in the way of raising their children, the cadets do it for them.
> Still other cadets, whine and snivel about how slack the CIL/CIC officers
> are.
> Well, son, spend a week in their boots and I‘m sure you‘ll change your tune.
> As
> with any walk of life, there are the hangers-on and slack individuals, but
> please believe me, that isn‘t just with the CIL/CIC, so don‘t tell me the
> majority of them are ‘a waste of life‘. How do you justify your lofty
> position
> that they shouldn‘t be wearing a uniform or saluted? Wait until you join the
> real world, boy will you be surprised! If you were in my cadet corps with
> that
> attitude, you wouldn‘t be a CWO much less a Cpl. What happened? Got turned
> down
> for a course? Didn‘t get what you wanted? That‘s life, suck it up!
>
> Francois Arseneault
> ex-cadet 1977-81
> ex-reservist 1981-83
> military contracter 1989- to date
> ACL of C 1991 - to date
>
> Adam Wainwright wrote:
>
> > There are two types of CILofficers
> >
> > 1. the ones that are a waste of a life this is most of them I‘m a cadet
> > and let me tell you they should not be allowed to wear an officers uniform
> > much less be saluted, these are the slack assed ones. the wanna-be‘s
> either
> > solides sailors or airman
> >
> > 2. old military hands, they are the ones that take the flack for all the
> > others and make cadets and the CILlook a tiny bit respectable, theses are
> > the geat members that earn the respect of there followers.
> >
> > You must understand that cadets used to be a fairly disicplined
> > orgasination, they have made it in to a boy scout troop, its pathetic to
> see
> > how its gone down in 6 years.  CILofficers do not require annsecond
> language
> > training or post secondary education, a 10 day course and your a 2nd
> > louie... Pretty sad.  I‘m a cadet CWO and have almost no respect for one
> > CILofficer I‘ve ever met like any organisation there are some
> professionals
> > that are very good and very much good CILofficers
> >
> > Your comments please -
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
> > Behalf Of rcac2051 19th Alberta Dragoons Army Cadet Corps
> > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:07 AM
> > To: ‘army-list@CdnArmy.ca‘
> > Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> > This has nothing to do with joining the primary reserves. But there is
> > another component of the Reserves called the CIC. Your primary task is to
> > train cadets. I have been involved with the movement for 4 years and it is
> > very rewarding. Also I have the opportunity to travel across Canada for
> > employment with the CIC and work at 8 week summer training centres located
> > in various provinces. If you are interested in helping with the cadet
> > movement in Edmonton call 780 456-2613.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:   Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
> > Sent:   December 3, 2000 6:50 PM
> > To:     army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > Subject:        Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> >
> > 3 hour long interview for Offr‘s!
> > How long for ‘grunts‘?
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
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## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:23:04 EST*
I think that new Junior Offr.‘s have to be taught some practical things from 
the NCO‘s as is done in the ‘real‘ army. My experience, has been that the new 
officers don‘t seem to want any help from their NCO‘s, because, I suppose, 
they think they‘re above that sort of thing. I don‘t understand it. I 
personally think that there should be a very strong bond between a Plt. Cmdr. 
and his NCO‘s but maybe I"m not seeing the whole picture. Maybe there has to 
be that huge gap between the officers and the NCO‘s such as what I"ve seen, 
but I don‘t understand it as of yet.
    It makes me very confused as to whether I should train to be an officer 
when the time is right. I think I‘m more of an ‘NCO‘ type guy, just because 
of specifically what interests me in military life, but once again, what do I 
know?
    I just wish that more CICand I suppose Reg and PRes officers as 
wellofficers would accept help from their seniors, and make a bond with 
them, but one which wouldn‘t breach any lines of respect or order.
    Can‘t wait to hear what I said wrong!jk, :  
                    -Matt B.
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## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:50:09 -0500*
There are two sides to the point you are trying to make. An effective 
Officer-NCO relationship takes a firm understanding of relative 
experience levels and existing command responsibilities by both sides. 
You speak of officers seeming less willing to accept the advice of Sr 
NCOs, I believe that there is also a parallel tendency over the past 
decade for some NCOs to feel that their role should go beyond 
contributing information to the decision-making cycle to feeling that 
they should be driving it.
Let there be no mistake, the officer is and will always be in charge. It 
is the officer who will be held responsible for any decisions made, 
regardless of the involvement or influence or lack thereof of the 
NCOs.
When I was a platoon commander I was lucky in that I had four very 
senior Sergeants for my platoon WO and Section Comds. None of them 
hesitated to advise me, but they were careful to select the time and 
place for making that contribution and the manner in which it was 
offered. They were careful to ensure that my authority within the 
platoon was not threatened, in my view or that of my soldiers. Once I 
made a decision and issued orders, there was no subsequent discussion, 
they did their jobs. And, frankly, I learned a lot from them, both in 
the technical execution of tasks and with regard to our respective roles 
within the platoon. At no time, however, did they infer any challenge to 
my position or responsibility as the Platoon Commander. It was very 
clear at all times in their minds, in mine and to the troops that I 
commanded.
I believe that some of your frustration is based on a perception that 
you should be influencing the officers‘ decisions and activities, or 
that you feel you should have a right to exercise more influence than 
you currently do. Be very careful how you approach this, any actions 
which are interpreted as undermining the officers‘ authority will be met 
with resistance, especially if they are seen or known about by other 
NCOs or the troops.
Your experience gives you a right to contribute, at the right time and 
under the right circumstances. It does not grant a right to direct. If 
you feel that you are more fit to command than your officers, then seek 
a commission, undergo their training and accept the responsibility for 
decisions made by you.
You are correct that there should be a strong bond between a junior 
officer and his/her NCOs. But it takes the open cooperation of both 
parties to achieve it - and it begins with trust.
Helping a young officer learn is like teaching a kid to ride a bike - 
you can give him all the instructions you want as you run alongside, but 
he‘s got to do the pedalling and steering if it‘s going to work. It 
would also be a lot harder without your help, but the bottom line is if 
you try to ride the bike for him, you both fail.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> I think that new Junior Offr.‘s have to be taught some practical 
things from
> the NCO‘s as is done in the ‘real‘ army. My experience, has been that 
the new
> officers don‘t seem to want any help from their NCO‘s, because, I 
suppose,
> they think they‘re above that sort of thing. I don‘t understand it. I
> personally think that there should be a very strong bond between a 
Plt. Cmdr.
> and his NCO‘s but maybe I"m not seeing the whole picture. Maybe there 
has to
> be that huge gap between the officers and the NCO‘s such as what I"ve 
seen,
> but I don‘t understand it as of yet.
>     It makes me very confused as to whether I should train to be an 
officer
> when the time is right. I think I‘m more of an ‘NCO‘ type guy, just 
because
> of specifically what interests me in military life, but once again, 
what do I
> know?
>     I just wish that more CICand I suppose Reg and PRes officers as
> wellofficers would accept help from their seniors, and make a bond 
with
> them, but one which wouldn‘t breach any lines of respect or order.
>     Can‘t wait to hear what I said wrong!jk, :  
>                     -Matt B.
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
There are two sides to the point you 
are trying to
make. An effective Officer-NCO relationship takes a firm understanding 
of
relative experience levels and existing command responsibilities by both 
sides.
You speak of officers seeming less willing to accept the advice of Sr 
NCOs, I
believe that there is also a parallel tendency over the past decade for 
some
NCOs to feel that their role should go beyond contributing information 
to the
decision-making cycle to feeling that they should be driving 
it.
Let there be no mistake, the officer is 
and will
always be in charge. It is the officer who will be held responsible for 
any
decisions made, regardless of the involvement or influence or lack 
thereof of
the NCOs.
When I was a platoon commander I was 
lucky in that
I had four very senior Sergeants for my platoon WO and Section Comds. 
None of
them hesitated to advise me, but they were careful to select the time 
and place
for making that contribution and the manner in which it was offered. 
They were
careful to ensure that my authority within the platoon was not 
threatened, in my
view or that of my soldiers. Once I made a decision and issued orders,
therewas no subsequent discussion, they did their jobs. And, 
frankly, I
learned a lot from them, both in the technical execution of tasks and 
with
regard toour respective roles within the platoon. At no time, 
however, did
they infer any challenge to my position or responsibility as the Platoon 
Commander. It was very clear at all times in their minds, in mine and to 
the
troops that I commanded. 
I believe that some of your frustration 
is based on
a perception that you should be influencing the officers‘ decisions and
activities, or that you feel you should have a right to exercise more 
influence
than you currently do. Be very careful how you approach this, any 
actions which
are interpreted as undermining the officers‘ authority will be met with
resistance, especially if they are seen or known about by other NCOs or 
the
troops.
Your experience gives you a right to 
contribute, at
the right time and under the right circumstances. It does not grant a 
right to
direct. If you feel that you are more fit to command than your officers, 
then
seek a commission, undergo their training and accept the responsibility 
for
decisions made by you.
You are correct that there should be a 
strong bond
between a junior officer and his/her NCOs. But it takes the open 
cooperation of
both parties to achieve it - and it begins with trust.
Helping a young officer learn is like 
teaching a
kid to ride a bike - you can give him all the instructions you want as 
you run
alongside, but he‘s got to do the pedalling and steering if it‘s going 
to work.
It would also be a lot harder without your help, but the bottom line is 
if you
try toride the bike for him, you both fail.
Mike
The
Regimental Rogue
----- Original Message ----- 
From: ltJuno847627709@aol.comgt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 3:23
PM
Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army
Reserves
gt I think that new Junior 
Offr.‘s have
to be taught some practical things from gt the NCO‘s as is done in 
the
‘real‘ army. My experience, has been that the new gt officers 
don‘t seem
to want any help from their NCO‘s, because, I suppose, gt they 
think
they‘re above that sort of thing. I don‘t understand it. I gt 
personally
think that there should be a very strong bond between a Plt. Cmdr. 
gt and
his NCO‘s but maybe I"m not seeing the whole picture. Maybe there has to 
gt be that huge gap between the officers and the NCO‘s such as 
what I"ve
seen, gt but I don‘t understand it as of yet.gt 
It makes me very confused as to whether I should train to be an officer 
gt
when the time is right. I think I‘m more of an ‘NCO‘ type guy, just 
because
gt of specifically what interests me in military life, but once 
again,
what do I gt know?gt  I just wish that 
more
CICand I suppose Reg and PRes officers as gt wellofficers would 
accept
help from their seniors, and make a bond with gt them, but one 
which
wouldn‘t breach any lines of respect or order.gt 
 Can‘t
wait to hear what I said wrong!jk, : gt
nbsp
-Matt B.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:28:50 -0700*
I think you make some valid points Michael and I would take it one step
farther from a soldiers point of view.
Part of my QL 7 course was the presentation of a service paper on
Officer/Warrant Officer relations. Not only did it test our military writing
skilss but it served to get ideas from very senior Warrant Officers within
my branch. Nearly every interview that I conducted while researching this
paper indicated that most Snr NCOs and WOs did not trust young officers and
failed to embrace the fact that they played an important role in the
officer‘s upbringing. Jealousy, youth, inexperience all seemed to be part of
the problem but the biggest part was that there was no education.
Soldiers were not taught the subtleties of critiquing young officers so that
their leadership and ego was not challenged. Most Snr NCOs and WOs forget
who the leader is and that leads to a breakdown in the chain of command. Bad
mouthing officer‘s mistakes in front of the platoon or company seemed to be
in vogue but it was destructive.
In fact, it is this very conduct that breeds the mistrust and contempt the
other way, from the wronged officer. A Lt or young Capt that is harmed by a
Sgt or WO at the beginning of his career will remember that for a long time.
The problem is that they remember the rank badge and then all Sgts and WOs
get tarred with the same brush. Nobody wins and the army suffers.
Leadship is an art. Part of the art is to understand who the ultimate
authority is. A good Sgt or WO can rally his soldiers behind the officer or
the officers of a unit and it can make for a very cohesive unit. The owness
is on the soldier to respect the officer, guide when appropriate and let the
officer know that the soldier understands his place in the command stucture.
Ordinarily with Senior relationships CO/RSM or Coy Comd/CSM this works well.
It should however work right down to the platoon level, and at that level it
can grow into a great harmonious relationship.
Every time I hear somebody bad mouth an officer I start to doubt the
soldier‘s leadership skills, and ...I think that soldier might have passed a
fault!
arte et marte
anderson sends
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:16:00 -0700*
As someone who was a senior NCO and is now a "relatively" senior officer 
LCol I most heartedly agree.
Don
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mike Oleary
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 3:50 PM
  Subject: Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in Army 
Reserves
  There are two sides to the point you are trying to make. An effective 
Officer-NCO relationship takes a firm understanding of relative 
experience levels and existing command responsibilities by both sides. 
You speak of officers seeming less willing to accept the advice of Sr 
NCOs, I believe that there is also a parallel tendency over the past 
decade for some NCOs to feel that their role should go beyond 
contributing information to the decision-making cycle to feeling that 
they should be driving it.
  Let there be no mistake, the officer is and will always be in charge. 
It is the officer who will be held responsible for any decisions made, 
regardless of the involvement or influence or lack thereof of the 
NCOs.
  When I was a platoon commander I was lucky in that I had four very 
senior Sergeants for my platoon WO and Section Comds. None of them 
hesitated to advise me, but they were careful to select the time and 
place for making that contribution and the manner in which it was 
offered. They were careful to ensure that my authority within the 
platoon was not threatened, in my view or that of my soldiers. Once I 
made a decision and issued orders, there was no subsequent discussion, 
they did their jobs. And, frankly, I learned a lot from them, both in 
the technical execution of tasks and with regard to our respective roles 
within the platoon. At no time, however, did they infer any challenge to 
my position or responsibility as the Platoon Commander. It was very 
clear at all times in their minds, in mine and to the troops that I 
commanded.
  I believe that some of your frustration is based on a perception that 
you should be influencing the officers‘ decisions and activities, or 
that you feel you should have a right to exercise more influence than 
you currently do. Be very careful how you approach this, any actions 
which are interpreted as undermining the officers‘ authority will be met 
with resistance, especially if they are seen or known about by other 
NCOs or the troops.
  Your experience gives you a right to contribute, at the right time and 
under the right circumstances. It does not grant a right to direct. If 
you feel that you are more fit to command than your officers, then seek 
a commission, undergo their training and accept the responsibility for 
decisions made by you.
  You are correct that there should be a strong bond between a junior 
officer and his/her NCOs. But it takes the open cooperation of both 
parties to achieve it - and it begins with trust.
  Helping a young officer learn is like teaching a kid to ride a bike - 
you can give him all the instructions you want as you run alongside, but 
he‘s got to do the pedalling and steering if it‘s going to work. It 
would also be a lot harder without your help, but the bottom line is if 
you try to ride the bike for him, you both fail.
  Mike
  The Regimental Rogue
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: 
  To: 
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 3:23 PM
  Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves
  > I think that new Junior Offr.‘s have to be taught some practical 
things from
  > the NCO‘s as is done in the ‘real‘ army. My experience, has been 
that the new
  > officers don‘t seem to want any help from their NCO‘s, because, I 
suppose,
  > they think they‘re above that sort of thing. I don‘t understand it. 
I
  > personally think that there should be a very strong bond between a 
Plt. Cmdr.
  > and his NCO‘s but maybe I"m not seeing the whole picture. Maybe 
there has to
  > be that huge gap between the officers and the NCO‘s such as what 
I"ve seen,
  > but I don‘t understand it as of yet.
  >     It makes me very confused as to whether I should train to be an 
officer
  > when the time is right. I think I‘m more of an ‘NCO‘ type guy, just 
because
  > of specifically what interests me in military life, but once again, 
what do I
  > know?
  >     I just wish that more CICand I suppose Reg and PRes officers as 
  > wellofficers would accept help from their seniors, and make a bond 
with
  > them, but one which wouldn‘t breach any lines of respect or order.
  >     Can‘t wait to hear what I said wrong!jk, :  
  >                     -Matt B.
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
As someone who was a senior NCO and is 
now a
"relatively" senior officer LCol I most heartedly agree.
Don
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Mike
  Oleary 
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 
3:50
  PM
  Subject: Officer - NCO 
relationship, was
  Re: Recruitment in Army Reserves

  There are two sides to the point you 
are trying
  to make. An effective Officer-NCO relationship takes a firm 
understanding of
  relative experience levels and existing command responsibilities by 
both
  sides. You speak of officers seeming less willing to accept the advice 
of Sr
  NCOs, I believe that there is also a parallel tendency over the past 
decade
  for some NCOs to feel that their role should go beyond contributing
  information to the decision-making cycle to feeling that they should 
be
  driving it.

  Let there be no mistake, the officer 
is and will
  always be in charge. It is the officer who will be held responsible 
for any
  decisions made, regardless of the involvement or influence or lack 
thereof
  of the NCOs.

  When I was a platoon commander I was 
lucky in
  that I had four very senior Sergeants for my platoon WO and Section 
Comds.
  None of them hesitated to advise me, but they were careful to select 
the time
  and place for making that contribution and the manner in which it was 
offered.
  They were careful to ensure that my authority within the platoon was 
not
  threatened, in my view or that of my soldiers. Once I made a decision 
and
  issued orders, therewas no subsequent discussion, they did their 
jobs.
  And, frankly, I learned a lot from them, both in the technical 
execution of
  tasks and with regard toour respective roles within the platoon. 
At no
  time, however, did they infer any challenge to my position or 
responsibility
  as the Platoon Commander. It was very clear at all times in their 
minds, in
  mine and to the troops that I commanded. 

  I believe that some of your 
frustration is based
  on a perception that you should be influencing the officers‘ decisions 
and
  activities, or that you feel you should have a right to exercise more
  influence than you currently do. Be very careful how you approach 
this, any
  actions which are interpreted as undermining the officers‘ authority 
will be
  met with resistance, especially if they are seen or known about by 
other NCOs
  or the troops.

  Your experience gives you a right to 
contribute,
  at the right time and under the right circumstances. It does not grant 
a right
  to direct. If you feel that you are more fit to command than your 
officers,
  then seek a commission, undergo their training and accept the 
responsibility
  for decisions made by you.

  You are correct that there should be 
a strong
  bond between a junior officer and his/her NCOs. But it takes the open
  cooperation of both parties to achieve it - and it begins with
  trust.

  Helping a young officer learn is 
like teaching a
  kid to ride a bike - you can give him all the instructions you want as 
you run
  alongside, but he‘s got to do the pedalling and steering if it‘s going 
to
  work. It would also be a lot harder without your help, but the bottom 
line is
  if you try toride the bike for him, you both fail.


  Mike

  The
  Regimental Rogue

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ltJuno847627709@aol.comgt
  To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 3:23
  PM
  Subject: Re: Recruitment in Army
  Reserves
  gt I think that new 
Junior Offr.‘s
  have to be taught some practical things from gt the NCO‘s as is 
done in
  the ‘real‘ army. My experience, has been that the new gt 
officers don‘t
  seem to want any help from their NCO‘s, because, I suppose, gt 
they
  think they‘re above that sort of thing. I don‘t understand it. I 
gt
  personally think that there should be a very strong bond between a 
Plt. Cmdr.
  gt and his NCO‘s but maybe I"m not seeing the whole picture. 
Maybe there
  has to gt be that huge gap between the officers and the NCO‘s 
such as
  what I"ve seen, gt but I don‘t understand it as of yet.gt
   It makes me very confused as to whether I should 
train to
  be an officer gt when the time is right. I think I‘m more of an 
‘NCO‘
  type guy, just because gt of specifically what interests me in 
military
  life, but once again, what do I gt know?gt 
 I
  just wish that more CICand I suppose Reg and PRes officers as 
gt
  wellofficers would accept help from their seniors, and make a bond 
with
  gt them, but one which wouldn‘t breach any lines of respect or
  order.gt  Can‘t wait to hear what I said 
wrong!jk,
  : gt

nbsp
  -Matt B.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:25:09 -0500*
Andy you bring some good contrast to Mike‘s very by the Book response which
is, Mike, in all ways pretty much the System design...however...
This young man brings up a case that is basically off this means for
discussion, ie the Cadet Corps.
I do not know the precise age one joins Cadets, but the exit age is quite
young.
Having gone through basic, trades qualifying, Junior Leaders, Senior NCO
Part One and Two, WO school and MWO school, my base observation is that a
Cadet CWO has not had anything like that experience as an extension they do
not have training in counseling their officers, nor independent command
experience such as an "Army" Sr NCO gets, over time...tho‘ yes he is
reporting back to an Officer with Command responsibility while detached he
is responsible for his actions, and those of his troops, their care,
feeding, training and development.  That responsibility is absent in a
Cadet.
In the Army, we have a messing system that separates the Sr NCO‘s from the
junior enlisted ranks.  This is absent in the Cadet movement.
Likewise, someone along the comment trail was correct if we do not give
promotions to Privates, they tend to quit.  If we don‘t promote officer
cadets and 2Lt‘s, they would quit, too...but 2Lt‘s for instance are promoted
simply on time in grade, of about six months...
It is difficult to conceive of a 2Lt, Lt or Captain going to an 18 year old
Cadet, of any rank, for guidance in command.
It is difficult to see where good Cadet Sr NCO‘s are evolved if the CWO does
not set a good example in pro-actively offering information for the good of
the unit to his officers.  I believe the avenue would be open for a CWO to
approach the Cadet CO and advise on the inappropriate training or activity
of any officer, given it was done quietly and discretely.  If the CWO does
not have confidence in the command structure, its time for him to get tough
and get a commission, and change the system himself, or get out.
My opinion only.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in ArmyReserves
> I think you make some valid points Michael and I would take it one step
> farther from a soldiers point of view.
>
> Part of my QL 7 course was the presentation of a service paper on
> Officer/Warrant Officer relations. Not only did it test our military
writing
> skilss but it served to get ideas from very senior Warrant Officers within
> my branch. Nearly every interview that I conducted while researching this
> paper indicated that most Snr NCOs and WOs did not trust young officers
and
> failed to embrace the fact that they played an important role in the
> officer‘s upbringing. Jealousy, youth, inexperience all seemed to be part
of
> the problem but the biggest part was that there was no education.
>
> Soldiers were not taught the subtleties of critiquing young officers so
that
> their leadership and ego was not challenged. Most Snr NCOs and WOs
forget
> who the leader is and that leads to a breakdown in the chain of command.
Bad
> mouthing officer‘s mistakes in front of the platoon or company seemed to
be
> in vogue but it was destructive.
>
> In fact, it is this very conduct that breeds the mistrust and contempt the
> other way, from the wronged officer. A Lt or young Capt that is harmed by
a
> Sgt or WO at the beginning of his career will remember that for a long
time.
> The problem is that they remember the rank badge and then all Sgts and WOs
> get tarred with the same brush. Nobody wins and the army suffers.
>
> Leadship is an art. Part of the art is to understand who the ultimate
> authority is. A good Sgt or WO can rally his soldiers behind the officer
or
> the officers of a unit and it can make for a very cohesive unit. The
owness
> is on the soldier to respect the officer, guide when appropriate and let
the
> officer know that the soldier understands his place in the command
stucture.
>
> Ordinarily with Senior relationships CO/RSM or Coy Comd/CSM this works
well.
> It should however work right down to the platoon level, and at that level
it
> can grow into a great harmonious relationship.
>
> Every time I hear somebody bad mouth an officer I start to doubt the
> soldier‘s leadership skills, and ...I think that soldier might have passed
a
> fault!
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:35:12 -0700*
Hear Hear.. I was a Chief Scout, as well as a leader, and a pretty good
soldier to boot....... methinks Mr Wainright should learn that discretion is
the better part of valour.. to turn it around.....most of my family was
involved heavily in cadets.. as CIL officers, Militia volunteers, or just
concerned citizens... I met many a cocky cadet NCO, who couldn‘t cut it,
when they got to me. "Judge not, lest ye be judged"
MacF
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"The most unhappy of all men is he who believes himself to be so."
--David Hume
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Recruitment in Army Reserves
> As a former member of both the Regs and the Reserves, I take great offence
> at you casting asparagus at Scouting...........I am a Scouting leader and
> enjoy my volunteer time immensely.  I‘m sure your leaders deserve respect,
> but you must first learn how to respect someone.....
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:21:56 -0500*
John, you are correct that what I described is how things are supposed to
work. And the system works well indeed when the players are all on the same
side.
I agree in principle with your comments regarding the contrasts between
cadets and the Army PRes and Reg, but it was our young correspondent who
first established the comparison and wanted to use his personal experience
to assume similarities between these organizations.
Admittedly there are significant differences. There are also parallels. As
noted, even a Cadet senior NCO has gained certain experiences and
qualifications which the new CIL officer has not yet experienced.
Differences between levels of training, responsibilities and experiences
between the cadet and the soldier are, in this respect, less important.
In my opinion, there is some relevance to this particular topic in this
forum. For if this is the opinion which this young man has developed as an
NCO speaking of officers then what attitudes might we expect him, or his
peers, to bring to the Primary Reserve or to the Regular Force if he decides
to make a career of the Army.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Gow 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in ArmyReserves
> Andy you bring some good contrast to Mike‘s very by the Book response
which
> is, Mike, in all ways pretty much the System design...however...
>
> This young man brings up a case that is basically off this means for
> discussion, ie the Cadet Corps.
>
> I do not know the precise age one joins Cadets, but the exit age is quite
> young.
>
> Having gone through basic, trades qualifying, Junior Leaders, Senior NCO
> Part One and Two, WO school and MWO school, my base observation is that a
> Cadet CWO has not had anything like that experience as an extension they
do
> not have training in counseling their officers, nor independent command
> experience such as an "Army" Sr NCO gets, over time...tho‘ yes he is
> reporting back to an Officer with Command responsibility while detached
he
> is responsible for his actions, and those of his troops, their care,
> feeding, training and development.  That responsibility is absent in a
> Cadet.
>
> In the Army, we have a messing system that separates the Sr NCO‘s from the
> junior enlisted ranks.  This is absent in the Cadet movement.
>
> Likewise, someone along the comment trail was correct if we do not give
> promotions to Privates, they tend to quit.  If we don‘t promote officer
> cadets and 2Lt‘s, they would quit, too...but 2Lt‘s for instance are
promoted
> simply on time in grade, of about six months...
>
> It is difficult to conceive of a 2Lt, Lt or Captain going to an 18 year
old
> Cadet, of any rank, for guidance in command.
>
> It is difficult to see where good Cadet Sr NCO‘s are evolved if the CWO
does
> not set a good example in pro-actively offering information for the good
of
> the unit to his officers.  I believe the avenue would be open for a CWO to
> approach the Cadet CO and advise on the inappropriate training or activity
> of any officer, given it was done quietly and discretely.  If the CWO does
> not have confidence in the command structure, its time for him to get
tough
> and get a commission, and change the system himself, or get out.
>
> My opinion only.
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William J  Anderson" 
> To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in
ArmyReserves
>
>
> > I think you make some valid points Michael and I would take it one step
> > farther from a soldiers point of view.
> >
> > Part of my QL 7 course was the presentation of a service paper on
> > Officer/Warrant Officer relations. Not only did it test our military
> writing
> > skilss but it served to get ideas from very senior Warrant Officers
within
> > my branch. Nearly every interview that I conducted while researching
this
> > paper indicated that most Snr NCOs and WOs did not trust young officers
> and
> > failed to embrace the fact that they played an important role in the
> > officer‘s upbringing. Jealousy, youth, inexperience all seemed to be
part
> of
> > the problem but the biggest part was that there was no education.
> >
> > Soldiers were not taught the subtleties of critiquing young officers so
> that
> > their leadership and ego was not challenged. Most Snr NCOs and WOs
> forget
> > who the leader is and that leads to a breakdown in the chain of command.
> Bad
> > mouthing officer‘s mistakes in front of the platoon or company seemed to
> be
> > in vogue but it was destructive.
> >
> > In fact, it is this very conduct that breeds the mistrust and contempt
the
> > other way, from the wronged officer. A Lt or young Capt that is harmed
by
> a
> > Sgt or WO at the beginning of his career will remember that for a long
> time.
> > The problem is that they remember the rank badge and then all Sgts and
WOs
> > get tarred with the same brush. Nobody wins and the army suffers.
> >
> > Leadship is an art. Part of the art is to understand who the ultimate
> > authority is. A good Sgt or WO can rally his soldiers behind the officer
> or
> > the officers of a unit and it can make for a very cohesive unit. The
> owness
> > is on the soldier to respect the officer, guide when appropriate and let
> the
> > officer know that the soldier understands his place in the command
> stucture.
> >
> > Ordinarily with Senior relationships CO/RSM or Coy Comd/CSM this works
> well.
> > It should however work right down to the platoon level, and at that
level
> it
> > can grow into a great harmonious relationship.
> >
> > Every time I hear somebody bad mouth an officer I start to doubt the
> > soldier‘s leadership skills, and ...I think that soldier might have
passed
> a
> > fault!
> >
> > arte et marte
> >
> > anderson sends
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Adam Wainwright" <ajmw@home.com>* on *Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:48:38 -0800*
All,
I must say something to supplement the ‘great cadet debate‘.  Firstly, I do
really appreciate all of those hard working CIL officers out there, they are
what make the cadet system what it is, I regret my comments on them as a
whole.  I know in life and in any organisation there are the good and the
bad.  In regards to what mike and john are talking about, no there is no way
I as a cadet CWO have near as much experience in 6 1/2 years as a reg force
or Pres CWO in 16-25 or however many years, but I have taken everything that
the cadet system has  to offer in terms of courses.  Mike, I am going to
keep the emails that you wrote about the working relationship between NCM‘s
and officers, they were really some of the best terms of reference I‘ve
heard yet.
- Adam
* as to mikes concerns about attitudes transferring to the regs or Pres.  I
can tell you that I realize that everywhere there is good and less-good
officers and NCM‘s for that matter.  Cadet WO and senior NCM‘s are really
frustrated that in the CIL/CIC there seams to be more ‘less-good‘ ones, I
respect every officer for there rank and position - as I‘m required to.  I
may consider a carer in the forces - in any case I was referring to ONLY
CIC/CIL officers.  I know that I‘d love to work with officers and NCM‘s like
the ones that I correspond with on this list, it would be an honour to.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Mike Oleary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:22 PM
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in Army
Reserves
John, you are correct that what I described is how things are supposed to
work. And the system works well indeed when the players are all on the same
side.
I agree in principle with your comments regarding the contrasts between
cadets and the Army PRes and Reg, but it was our young correspondent who
first established the comparison and wanted to use his personal experience
to assume similarities between these organizations.
Admittedly there are significant differences. There are also parallels. As
noted, even a Cadet senior NCO has gained certain experiences and
qualifications which the new CIL officer has not yet experienced.
Differences between levels of training, responsibilities and experiences
between the cadet and the soldier are, in this respect, less important.
In my opinion, there is some relevance to this particular topic in this
forum. For if this is the opinion which this young man has developed as an
NCO speaking of officers then what attitudes might we expect him, or his
peers, to bring to the Primary Reserve or to the Regular Force if he decides
to make a career of the Army.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Gow 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in ArmyReserves
> Andy you bring some good contrast to Mike‘s very by the Book response
which
> is, Mike, in all ways pretty much the System design...however...
>
> This young man brings up a case that is basically off this means for
> discussion, ie the Cadet Corps.
>
> I do not know the precise age one joins Cadets, but the exit age is quite
> young.
>
> Having gone through basic, trades qualifying, Junior Leaders, Senior NCO
> Part One and Two, WO school and MWO school, my base observation is that a
> Cadet CWO has not had anything like that experience as an extension they
do
> not have training in counseling their officers, nor independent command
> experience such as an "Army" Sr NCO gets, over time...tho‘ yes he is
> reporting back to an Officer with Command responsibility while detached
he
> is responsible for his actions, and those of his troops, their care,
> feeding, training and development.  That responsibility is absent in a
> Cadet.
>
> In the Army, we have a messing system that separates the Sr NCO‘s from the
> junior enlisted ranks.  This is absent in the Cadet movement.
>
> Likewise, someone along the comment trail was correct if we do not give
> promotions to Privates, they tend to quit.  If we don‘t promote officer
> cadets and 2Lt‘s, they would quit, too...but 2Lt‘s for instance are
promoted
> simply on time in grade, of about six months...
>
> It is difficult to conceive of a 2Lt, Lt or Captain going to an 18 year
old
> Cadet, of any rank, for guidance in command.
>
> It is difficult to see where good Cadet Sr NCO‘s are evolved if the CWO
does
> not set a good example in pro-actively offering information for the good
of
> the unit to his officers.  I believe the avenue would be open for a CWO to
> approach the Cadet CO and advise on the inappropriate training or activity
> of any officer, given it was done quietly and discretely.  If the CWO does
> not have confidence in the command structure, its time for him to get
tough
> and get a commission, and change the system himself, or get out.
>
> My opinion only.
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William J  Anderson" 
> To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 7:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Officer - NCO relationship, was Re: Recruitment in
ArmyReserves
>
>
> > I think you make some valid points Michael and I would take it one step
> > farther from a soldiers point of view.
> >
> > Part of my QL 7 course was the presentation of a service paper on
> > Officer/Warrant Officer relations. Not only did it test our military
> writing
> > skilss but it served to get ideas from very senior Warrant Officers
within
> > my branch. Nearly every interview that I conducted while researching
this
> > paper indicated that most Snr NCOs and WOs did not trust young officers
> and
> > failed to embrace the fact that they played an important role in the
> > officer‘s upbringing. Jealousy, youth, inexperience all seemed to be
part
> of
> > the problem but the biggest part was that there was no education.
> >
> > Soldiers were not taught the subtleties of critiquing young officers so
> that
> > their leadership and ego was not challenged. Most Snr NCOs and WOs
> forget
> > who the leader is and that leads to a breakdown in the chain of command.
> Bad
> > mouthing officer‘s mistakes in front of the platoon or company seemed to
> be
> > in vogue but it was destructive.
> >
> > In fact, it is this very conduct that breeds the mistrust and contempt
the
> > other way, from the wronged officer. A Lt or young Capt that is harmed
by
> a
> > Sgt or WO at the beginning of his career will remember that for a long
> time.
> > The problem is that they remember the rank badge and then all Sgts and
WOs
> > get tarred with the same brush. Nobody wins and the army suffers.
> >
> > Leadship is an art. Part of the art is to understand who the ultimate
> > authority is. A good Sgt or WO can rally his soldiers behind the officer
> or
> > the officers of a unit and it can make for a very cohesive unit. The
> owness
> > is on the soldier to respect the officer, guide when appropriate and let
> the
> > officer know that the soldier understands his place in the command
> stucture.
> >
> > Ordinarily with Senior relationships CO/RSM or Coy Comd/CSM this works
> well.
> > It should however work right down to the platoon level, and at that
level
> it
> > can grow into a great harmonious relationship.
> >
> > Every time I hear somebody bad mouth an officer I start to doubt the
> > soldier‘s leadership skills, and ...I think that soldier might have
passed
> a
> > fault!
> >
> > arte et marte
> >
> > anderson sends
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > message body.
>
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