# pushup problems; PSP, warrior, PT test.



## Shrek1985 (16 Apr 2013)

Here's the situation;

Got a buddy in basic in St Jean Quebec. Going for vehicle tech.

He's not the fittest guy ever; wiry little guy; can run, can ruck, low upper body strength, has struggled with his pushups, but has massively impoved.

Has been sent to warrior twice, now looking at a third time.

He keeps getting sent back to platoons, which promptly fail him on his pushups and send him back to the warrior program.

WTF.

So...warrior is run by PSP, yes? They are giving him their stamp of approval; 19, 20, 25 pushups...He goes back to a platoon, which tests him again, under, as I understand it; different PSP staff, who consistantly fail him; 7, 9, 10 pushups. Sounds like uneven training standards or a deliberate bias against a troop who has been to warrior.

I'm not even going to touch what PSP thinks is a pushup. What is going on here? What are this guy's options? I've trained soldiers for some time now; I have known this guy for years. He is not dogging it, he wants to be there. What recourses does he have? Sounds like textbook grounds for redress to me.

it sounds to me that this guy is being messed with. Either PSP is just passing him through warrior and failing to train him better, or PSP or whoever is either judging on a different standard at the platoon level, or they're simply trying to run him out.


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Apr 2013)

Recourse:  he requests a meeting with his CofC and discusses his concerns with them.

Step 1, if not done.

The rest, is a LOT of 3rd party info and 'he said/she said' stuff which is not a favourable supporting argument for a grievance (IMO).

I'd comment on when I was staff at CFLRS but that is far enough in the past to not matter BUT...I'd suggest *if* there are standard issues at CFLRS the Cmdt would find that concerning.

* I don't believe Warrior is run completely but PSP, there are (was) NCOs in the subunit for a CofC.


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## Shrek1985 (16 Apr 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Recourse:  he requests a meeting with his CofC and discusses his concerns with them.
> 
> Step 1, if not done.
> 
> ...



So I'm clear; you are not suggesting this go to the commandant, correct? 

NCOs in warrior sounds realistic.


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Apr 2013)

A Pte (R) should not be going directly to the Cmdt; there is a CofC and should be used.  Those in the CofC will involve the Cmdt *if* they warrant it necessary.

This recruit should ask to speak to their immediate superior asap and discuss with them.  

That's my  :2c:.  Let the CofC function as it should.


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## UnwiseCritic (16 Apr 2013)

He may not be getting as much sleep or as good of a diet in his normal platoon. He should just be working on his fitness all the time. Or he may just stress out and lose some upper body strength for his test.

3 things to improve push-ups

Start in the push up position: Go all the way down, half way up, all the way down, all the way up, half way down, all the way up, all the way down, all the way up. (that's one) It has something to do with using muscle while dispersing lactic acid or something like that (still burns).But all I know is it works.

Do 10 push ups rest for 1 minute x 10. Rest 1 min hold up position for 1 min, rest for 2 min then hold up position for 2 min. Then rest for 2-4 min and complete a max set. I usually set a pr after that.

Do 30% of your max push ups every hour while you are awake. Never done it but people swear by it. It is some russian way of exercise that they think works best. I guess going all the way to depletion isn't always a good thing.

Not the answer you may have been looking for, but maybe forward this to him.


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## TYLERgibson (18 Apr 2013)

The only part psp staff run in warrior is the gym portion of the platoon. The rest is done by NCO's. Again, it all depends on the psp staff. I personally would take it up CofC, as he sounds like he's getting fucked out of a platoon by one or two staff that may not think very highly of him.


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## Mom150 (22 Apr 2013)

There seems to be different standards of psp staff.  You can pass by the warrior psp, then when you rejoin a platoon, the psp staff fail and so you can't join them.  This usually takes a few days after you've started to bond with another new platoon.  It's unfair.  If the recruits are not platoon ready, they should stay longer in warrior to be certain or better yet, the full pass by psp there should count for them to join the new platoon.   Enough of the inconsistent psp testing.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Apr 2013)

_Maybe_ the real problem isn't the PSP staff, it is the fitness level of the recruits.

 :


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## jwtg (22 Apr 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> _Maybe_ the real problem isn't the PSP staff, it is the fitness level of the recruits.
> 
> :


I've never had less than 30 push-ups counted, by ANY PSP staff, and that was my first ever Expres.  I now routinely do 45-50 proper, PSP-approved push ups every test (although, thankfully, that's soon out the window with the advent of the FORCE test).


At the risk of sounding unsympathetic, my advice to anyone having a hard time with fitness is to worry less about the testing staff and simply control what they can: their level of fitness.  Get to the point where you're unquestionably able to exceed the minimum standard.  

Probably a good attitude to take everywhere else in life as well.


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## Mom150 (22 Apr 2013)

Not looking for sympathy.  Just don't think they should be told they are ready for a platoon if they are not.  Psp should be judging the same way shouldn't they?  If 19 is the requiremement, keep them until they have at least 25 so there is some wiggle room.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Apr 2013)

Who says the PSP are judging different?  I mean _other_ than the unfit/physically incapable recruits.


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## PuckChaser (22 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> If 19 is the requiremement, keep them until they have at least 25 so there is some wiggle room.



Why keep them at all? The goal is to get them onto training and stop wasting money, not let them hang out on PT Platoon to get into super shape.


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## jwtg (22 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> Not looking for sympathy.  Just don't think they should be told they are ready for a platoon if they are not.  Psp should be judging the same way shouldn't they?  If 19 is the requiremement, keep them until they have at least 25 so there is some wiggle room.


For what it's worth, the new FORCE test appears to be far less subject to the whims of the evaluator.  Either the sandbag hits the right spot on the wall or it doesn't.....either you finish the drag or you don't....etc.  I suppose this will benefit people who hover near the minimum fitness standards, unfortunately.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Why keep them at all? The goal is to get them onto training and stop wasting money, not let them hang out on PT Platoon to get into super shape.



Most police departments won't even process an applicant's file until they have a successful PT test under their belt; a lot of them require applicants to pay for the testing themselves, and then reimburse successful applicants.

Why don't we do the same thing?


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## MikeL (22 Apr 2013)

jwtg said:
			
		

> Most police departments won't even process an applicant's file until they have a successful PT test under their belt; a lot of them require applicants to pay for the testing themselves, and then reimburse successful applicants.
> 
> Why don't we do the same thing?



Not all Police Departments reimburse applicants(for their PARE, Aptitude, etc testing).  In Ontario, Police Recruits also have to pay $7000(?) to attend the Police College,  and are not reimbursed that money.  

Why should the CF contract parts of the recruiting process and have people pay?  I don't see why the CF should stop doing it's own and have a company do it.  The only thing that needs to change IMO is having Reg Force applicants be fitness tested like they were a few years ago.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2013)

I think Mom150 has a point about being told by one group of staff that a recruits performance is acceptable and have them slid into a regular platoon only to have a different group of staff say that it's not and send them back to warrior platoon, if that's what is happening.

That is a waste of time and makes an administrative burden. 

I've personally witnessed PSP give conflicting standards and it's horse shit.

Either the recruit is calling home lying to their parents (or whoever) about the different standards out of embarrassment and trying to make an excuse for staying in warrior platoon or PSP staff needs to be investigated for not enforcing one standard and either sort themselves out or be fire.



What isn't fair is the pay incentives of soldiers deployed overseas being reduced while we pay these recruits month after month to loose weight, especially if we're bouncing them back and forth.


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> What isn't fair is the pay incentives of soldiers deployed overseas being reduced while we pay these recruits month after month to loose weight, especially if we're bouncing them back and forth.



Pay Incentives have not been reduced.  IPCs, in fact, were raised as of 01 April for all CAF members.

What has changed is the risk and hardship assessments, based on a multi-departmental team that assesses the level of risk that CF members are subject to, and the level of hardship they are subject to.


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## jwtg (22 Apr 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Not all Police Departments reimburse applicants(for their PARE, Aptitude, etc testing).  In Ontario, Police Recruits also have to pay $7000(?) to attend the Police College,  and are not reimbursed that money.


 I know not all police departments follow this practice, which is why I said 'a lot' vice 'all.'



> Why should the CF contract parts of the recruiting process and have people pay?  I don't see why the CF should stop doing it's own and have a company do it.  The only thing that needs to change IMO is having *Reg Force applicants be fitness tested* like they were a few years ago.


Sorry, I realize that I was vague.  The part I've bolded here is exactly what I was getting at.  I agree with you in that this is the thing that should change.  We shouldn't process applicants who can't pass the fitness test.

I added the part about paid/reimbursed fitness tests because I predicted that people would object based on the added expense of running fitness tests.  I guess my preemptive response was that other municipal and federal government services can do it, so we probably could too, using the police example.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Pay Incentives have not been reduced.  IPCs, in fact, were raised as of 01 April for all CAF members.
> 
> What has changed is the risk and hardship assessments, based on a multi-departmental team that assesses the level of risk that CF members are subject to, and the level of hardship they are subject to.



Right! Poor choice of words. I didn't mean pay incentives as far as IPC goes.  
Hardship and Danger pay were explained to me once upon a time as a sort of pay incentive for deploying overseas and I used it in that context.

I just prefer to see money go to deployed soldiers before failing recruits.  I'm sure it's from different budgets etc.. but still.


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## polishman23 (3 Jul 2013)

back in 2009 when i went to basic training.. some of the PSP were under contract. So for them to work they needed recruits to have their contracts extended. There was a recruit doing push ups, and the platoon warrant counting them from the stands.The warrant counted 32 Push ups, but the PSP staff gave him 14 proper ones. More cases like this arose earlier but that was the last straw. They filed an investigation and it led to a bunch getting laid of  for fixing the express test. So your buddy should get his staff to count along with the PSP, and show the results of your buddies warrior platoon, see if that helps.


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## ballz (3 Jul 2013)

One thing I have not seen mentioned is that when I was there a few years ago, the practice was that you were tested during the initial week. There were, if I recall correctly, three things that could happen:

1. Fail to meet the standard so badly that you were sent to warrior platoon;

2. Fail to meet the standard, but only to a certain extent (for example, I think 9 push ups was the threshold). You were allowed to continue training with the platoon, and would be retested in week 8 (for BMOQ). It was expected that after an additional 8 weeks of training you would be able to meet the EXPRES standard. If you weren't able to, you were sent back to warrior platoon; or

3. Meet the standard.

It could be that this individual is in scenario #2, and is getting 9 or 10 push ups and being pushed forward with training, only to not meet the standard of 19 in the later test. That said, I *recall* if you were on the warrior platoon you had to meet the EXPRES standard before being loaded onto a course. This could have changed of course.



I've never had a problem getting push ups counted because I always bounced my chest off the ground to be safe, but the PSP are pretty inconsistent from what I've observed. I even had one PSP tell me to stop hitting my chest off the ground because it would constitute a "stop" and that would be it for me. And then again, maybe I'm biased because I've always had a bit of a gripe about some B. Kinesiology student who's never done a day of forced labour telling me about how to be physically fit for life in the Infantry.

Safe to say, all this hassel and griping could be saved if they just tested prior to enrolling. I know I know, radical thinking...


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## Shrek1985 (6 Jul 2013)

sorry for not updating this.

My buddy finally passed his final fitness test and is graduating later in the month.


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## UnwiseCritic (6 Jul 2013)

So as most of us agree, potential recruits should have to pass a fitness test in the early stages of their application. So why isn't that happening? Is it a numbers game? Too keep more qualified recruits?

As it would save money, time and headaches like the one above.


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## Humphrey Bogart (6 Jul 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> One thing I have not seen mentioned is that when I was there a few years ago, the practice was that you were tested during the initial week. There were, if I recall correctly, three things that could happen:
> 
> 1. Fail to meet the standard so badly that you were sent to warrior platoon;
> 
> ...



PSP seriously pisses me off and I am glad that although I don't think the new FORCE test is nearly hard enough, at least the evaluations are to be administered by the right people: Sr NCOs and Officers and not some person who has never done any work in the military in their life.


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## ballz (6 Jul 2013)

UnwiseCritic said:
			
		

> So as most of us agree, potential recruits should have to pass a fitness test in the early stages of their application. So why isn't that happening? Is it a numbers game? Too keep more qualified recruits?
> 
> As it would save money, time and headaches like the one above.



It changed during the big recruiting drive in the 2000s, I believe because they were turning away too many potential recruits at recruiting centres. To solve this, they created the "warrior" program, with the idea that if they could get these people to St. Jean, most of them could be put on "warrior" and brought up to the fitness standard.

Unfortunately, once you make a move like that I think it becomes very hard to reverse, even if there is no longer a huge recruiting drive...


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jul 2013)

Actually, CF Snr Leadership made the decision to remove the PT test component for Reg Force applicants around 2006 sometime (would have to search CANFORGENs from that year for exact dates).  IIRC it was under Uncle Rick's tenure.

Because of that, CFLRS introduced the Warrior Program.  I was there when the first handful of "Warriors" were doing afternoon PT behind the 1/4 mile track at the Mega one fall Friday afternoon in October '06 and, being curious, went to talk to the PSP staff who were supervising.  That was the first time I heard the term Warrior Platooon.  We shared grins over the name as a recruit "jogged" by at a blistering 0.45km/hour pace.  ;D

By the time I showed up to clear in as an instr/staff in Jan '07 the platoon had grown quickly to an understrength  > company and kept on truckin' since.


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## Robert0288 (7 Jul 2013)

So shift the PT test back to the recruiting phase, right after a medical.  Stop introducing new people into warrior, and have the program naturally draw down as people get in shape.  Those that unable to get in shape are clearly being an administrative burden.

/derail


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## stealthylizard (7 Jul 2013)

I'm grateful for the time I spent in RFT.  I don't know if I would have, or could have done what I accomplished without their help.  I managed to lose 70 lbs through RFT, BMQ, and DP1.......... but recruits should still be fit enough upon enlistment that such programs are not required to fill the ranks.  Hopefully with less of a demand for troopaloops, it can be phased out (but kept in the back pocket to fill the ranks again in the future if needed).

When I went through (2008), all the fitness activities were supervised by PSP, with the exception of remedial PT that was handed out due to substandard inspections and other platoon screwups.


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