# Canadians slandered in The Economist magazine



## Danno (12 Nov 2003)

From letters to the editor of the Economist magazine, November 1st 2003:


"SIR- Canadians truly believe that their lagging incomes are simply a product of having fewer â€œrich folkâ€ around and that their military impotence a result of being such â€œreally good guysâ€ that no one has a beef with them so they have no need of a military capability to defend their shores or foreign interests (Letters, October 25th).
The day I hear a Canadian admit that his country is wealthy, modern and free largely because it is nestled up against the worldâ€™s largest economy is the day I will stop considering Canada as a beautiful but ultimately myopic and naïve nation.
MICHAEL MCDANIEL
Oklahoma


SIR- Abraham Barrios says of politicians who want Canada to be more like America: â€œFor decades, Canadians have kept these people where they belong: in opposition.â€ In fact, they have kept many productive, educated Canadians who value individual rights and freedom where we belong: in America.
ROBIN MOCKETT
Los Angeles


Ladies and Gentlemen,

We are being slandered in an international publication! 
This magazine is circulated to Argentina, Barbados, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Columbia, Guyana, Jamaica, Mexico, Panama, Peru, Spain, UK, USA, and Venezuela. 
I challenge you to respond. 
Be sure to address your letter to the editor: letters@economist.com 
Keep it short, intelligent and polite and it may be published. Remember you are representing Canada in an international publication if your letter is chosen, so choose you words carefully.


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## Gunnar (12 Nov 2003)

The defence to a charge of slander is truth.  And it is true.  I don‘t like it, it makes me unhappy, but it‘s true.



> lagging incomes are simply a product of having fewer â€œrich folkâ€ around


Yeah, our rich folk move to the US where taxes are lower. 



> their military impotence a result of being such â€œreally good guysâ€


How often have we heard a civvie say "Why do we need a military?" or "Canada has an army?  Really?  What do we need them for?"  Our military impotence stems from Canadians who think we‘re such really good guys that we don‘t need an armed forces...and then public money is allocated accordingly.  Let our guys fly ancient helicopters, defend the land with pointed sticks...but don‘t fire a sports commentator!  There will be rioting in the streets!



> politicians who want Canada to be more like America: â€œFor decades, Canadians have kept these people where they belong: in opposition.â€


That‘s one interpretation.  Another is that Canada is becoming more like America because the existing government does nothing to defend Canadian culture or values:  

Peace?  Cut funds to our armed forces.  Soon, Americans may have to defend our country from bases within (as they did years ago) in order to be able to adequately protect their own borders.  Who maintains the peace then?

Order?  Cut funding to police services in favour of more dole programs, or so you can give money for "art" to some wacko who wants to make jewellery out of her own pubes.  (It‘s true, look it up).  Have stringent controls on immigration, but short circuit them all by allowing ANYONE to claim to be a refugee.  Then, let the FBI or the CIA do all the legwork (since the Feds ignore the warnings of the RCMP and CSIS), and determine what Canadian hoops *some* Canadians will have to jump through in order to visit the US.

Good Government?  Hah!  When your own Ethics Commissioner, a political hack appointed by your own party is finding impropriety everywhere and the Auditor General routinely finds huge flaws in your accounting (and you do *nothing* about it), your government is anything but good!

And for the record, it sounds like the Robin Mockett who wrote the second letter IS Canadian.


> they have kept many productive, educated Canadians who value individual rights and freedom where we belong: in America.


I may write the Economist, but I can‘t promise I‘m gonna toe the party line for ya...


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## Marauder (12 Nov 2003)

The truth stings like a bitch, doesn‘t it?


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## Michael Dorosh (12 Nov 2003)

I see no slander in this article, just people giving an honest opinion that many Canadians would also agree with.

In fact, I‘m tempted to write in myself and agree with every single word.  Thanks for the email address.


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## Gunnar (12 Nov 2003)

Yeah Marauder, it does.

Worst comment I ever heard an American make about Canada hurt the worst because I couldn‘t leap to her defense....it was true, and along the lines of the posting above...I forget the exact comment, but it was true and didn‘t make me happy.

Cheers!


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## nULL (13 Nov 2003)

lol, the truth - or is it? For the record, being "unable to leap to Canada‘s defense" does not mean the other person has spoken the truth, it just means that you lack the knowledge/linguistic abilities to form a suitable rebuttal.


"SIR- Canadians truly believe that their lagging incomes are simply a product of having fewer â€œrich folkâ€ around and that their military impotence a result of being such â€œreally good guysâ€ that no one has a beef with them so they have no need of a military capability to defend their shores or foreign interests (Letters, October 25th).
The day I hear a Canadian admit that his country is wealthy, modern and free largely because it is nestled up against the worldâ€™s largest economy is the day I will stop considering Canada as a beautiful but ultimately myopic and naïve nation.
MICHAEL MCDANIEL
Oklahoma"


Does Canada need a military? I keep asking myself this, then remember my opinion doesn‘t count      I suppose a better question would be, *why* does Canada need a military. To defend out interests? When was the last time a Canadian embassy was bombed? When was the last time Canada was under and foreign attack? People seem to enjoy using the 
"what if" scenario, as well as the "America provides our security" one. God, I wish I was prime minister. All the soldiers and civilians who complain about not being able to defend ourselves would get the answer they were looking for. What if the full time military was cut by 3/4, and instead of going to afghanistan, bosnia etc, and contributing to UN and NATO missions, the military was JUST made for homeland defence, and things such as embassy defence was just left to the RCMP? No more costly  tours or whatnot. Sure, no influence, and no incentive to join, but nobody seems to notice Canada‘s international reputation or contributions anyway. F*ck ‘em. What do you think? 

As far as freedom goes, don‘t get me started. One of the oddest things I ever saw was a gay marriage taking place in Vancouver. The couple were Americans, from Hawaii, and insisted on flying an American flag at the ceremony. I thought it was ironic that they seemed so content to participate in that facade, pretending that their country (that gave superior individual freedoms!) supported, or recognized their way of life, their individuality. Tell me, how exactly DOES the BASTION OF FREEDOM THAT IS THE UNITED STATES differ from Canada, as far as freedoms? The freedom to what, carry a firearm? If you‘ve got that on the list, you‘ve got a pretty sh*tty, pointless list so far. 

No, I‘m just saying that because i‘ve never written anything and been arrested by the CANADIAN GESTAPO. Enough of you seem content to write online about how much you hate JEAN CHRETIEN, despite the fact he‘s got more tenacity, and accomplished more, than a good number of you. I bet a number of you do the same thing in real life, mouthing off as such. Have you ever had CSIS  or the RCMP at your door? Odd....because i hear of people all the time in the United States getting detained and questioned by the Seecret Service for threatening figureheads...

As for being wealthy or modern, who says that‘s because of the US? Countries such as Australia seem to do just fine in terms of quality of life when surrounded by water....wait. Could that be because counries tend to export in the closest, most convenient, and profitable markets available?

  http://www.canadianembassy.org/trade/wltr-en.asp  

as you can see, Canada-US trade is hardly a one way street. we are THEIR largest trading partner there. Were we situated next to Great Britain, guess what our largest trading partner would be, most likely? 


SIR- Abraham Barrios says of politicians who want Canada to be more like America: â€œFor decades, Canadians have kept these people where they belong: in opposition.â€ In fact, they have kept many productive, educated Canadians who value individual rights and freedom where we belong: in America.
ROBIN MOCKETT
Los Angeles


I almost hope that the military has it‘s personnel level drastically slashed, and throws a large group of people with limited career skills onto the street with no pensions. It would be so AMUSING to see just how many people would suddenly see how "individual rights and freedom" matter so little when you‘ve got to support yourself on a limited income. F*ck, I work two g*d**** jobs and am a fulltime student. I work just as hard at what i do as you do. if the cost of "individual rights and freedoms" means not selling out my life to the highese bidder, i say, take more off the **** paycheck. 

i‘d point out a few websites with equally scathing critisims of the United States, but many of the conservatist types here would just write them off as trash and not even bother going. Just so you know though: America has it‘s own set of problems, and while Canada is certainly not a utopia, it‘s hardly an incompetent, bumbling cousin. 

if the canada you want is one of the united states, why don‘t you just leave it, and go south? little frightening to see canada‘s soldiers lose their national pride, sense of sovereignty, and their teeth when they‘re not being paid.

EDIT: sorry for the typos, i just got off work and am a tad tired. here‘s a question....how do feces get UNDER a toilet seat?


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## Infanteer (13 Nov 2003)

?!?
...
I‘m tired...
what are we arguing about...
everbody just shutup and read Starship Troopers.


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## Gunnar (13 Nov 2003)

> it just means that you lack the knowledge/linguistic abilities to form a suitable rebuttal.


Or you happen to agree with the comment.  Agreement doesn‘t imply a lack of knowlege.  

Nor does a lack of rebuttal necessarily imply agreement.  I do not agree with you on any of your points.  I will not rebut them, as polemics is ultimately a futile exercise...at some point you have to rely on shared assumptions in order that your point be clear.  You and I clearly do not share common principles.

However, rest assured that I believe that "the last time Canada was under foreign attack" isn‘t the standard by which one determines defence policy.

Nor is tenacity the standard by which one determines someone doing a good job.


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## Garry (13 Nov 2003)

Null,

I‘ll leave you with one of my favourite quotes from Winston Churchill:

"A man who, at age 20, is not a Liberal has no heart. A man who, at age 40, is not a Conservative has no brain."

See you in a few years.

Garry


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## Marauder (14 Nov 2003)

> Tell me, how exactly DOES the BASTION OF FREEDOM THAT IS THE UNITED STATES differ from Canada, as far as freedoms? The freedom to what, carry a firearm? If you‘ve got that on the list, you‘ve got a pretty sh*tty, pointless list so far.


How about the "freedom" to have no viable choice for government other than a mob of geriatric socialist francophones who view citizens as a means to subsidize their retirement and perpetuate the welfare state?
I can only hope you are being facetious when suggesting we do away with any and all military organization in this country, or worse yet keep cutting it.


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## Infanteer (14 Nov 2003)

Marauder, brother...you can‘t be serious when you compare choice of geriatric frenchmen (which is correct, except you forgot to mention the fact that they are ALL LAWYERS) to a choice of spoiled-aristocratic-politicians-sons-who-dodged-the-vietnam-war-and-are-complete-ninnies (hmm...Bush...Gore...whats the difference)

Thats why we need to read Starship Troopers.  If anyone wants, I‘ll give you my copy.


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Nov 2003)

I finally bought Starship Troopers based on the recommendations of people here, and thought it sucked for the most part.  As a descriptive for a well-ordered society, there are some interesting notions, and as a cutesy Army book there are some good stories such as the court martial sequence, but as entertaining fiction, I thought it lacked a certain something.


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## jrhume (14 Nov 2003)

Michael‘s right.  I read Starship Troopers the first time as a teen in the early 60s.  Sounded good at the time, but the book hasn‘t aged well and the social system described isn‘t viable.

IMHO both the US and Canada have their strong points and problems.  Purely for example and mostly at random, I offer my thoughts on two issues:

The US needs to figure out a medical care system that works for the majority of citizens.  It‘s being worked on, but the war and economy have shoved it to the back burner for now.

Canada is considering on an overhaul of their Senate.  Having Senators elected directly from their provinces is one way to do that -- ala the US.  There are certainly other ways, but however it is done, the result should be a more representative government.

See?  We‘re both works in progress -- and that‘s the beauty of a democratic form of government -- no matter what flavor.  We get to choose.

Jim


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## Infanteer (16 Nov 2003)

> I finally bought Starship Troopers based on the recommendations of people here, and thought it sucked for the most part.


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## Spr.Earl (16 Nov 2003)

We as Soldier‘s don‘t have to worry about what the "PUNDIT‘S" say or any one else.We know what we have done and can do!!!We as a small force are worth more because of our TRAINING and DEDICATION because we don‘t have all the baggage that come‘s with a large force!!
Yes we are a small force and we at time‘s do out perform the BIGGER Armies,but could you imagine if we had ten fold 2 V.P.‘s,3 R.C.R.‘s,Engineer‘s etc.then all would recognise us instead of pointing out our Govenment or our National fault‘s.

Think about it!!


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## Michael Dorosh (17 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


  

It was better than the movie by far, though...


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## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2003)

The editor of that economy magazine is probably the kinda guy that throws garbage at puppies.


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> It was better than the movie by far, though... [/QB]


I was the opposite, I really enjoyed the movie, the book wasn‘t bad but there is better military sci fi around. Then again I hated reading Lord of the Rings but the movies are awesome.


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## Pikache (17 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] I finally bought Starship Troopers based on the recommendations of people here, and thought it sucked for the most part.  As a descriptive for a well-ordered society, there are some interesting notions, and as a cutesy Army book there are some good stories such as the court martial sequence, but as entertaining fiction, I thought it lacked a certain something. [/qb]


Heresy. Pure heresy.


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## RCD (18 Nov 2003)

Nobody respect‘s a country with a poor army, but everybody respect‘s a country with a good army.
I raise a toast to the Army of Finland.
                        Joesph Stalin 1948


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## jutes85 (18 Nov 2003)

Canada is the best country to live in, and trust me, I know. So what if we don‘t have such a big army as the US or Britian, that just means there are less people that hate us for invading their country. 

It is the US‘ duty to protect the world from "the axis of evil" - Bush, what an moron, and other major terrorist forces, they have the money, man power and resources, so they are faced with that responsibility, no question about it. But when they go into places like Afganistan and Iraq on there own, and after demand other countries to help them out, well sorry, you got into the mess, you get yourself out. When your own soldiers die every day in attacks, don‘t expect other countries to help out anytime soon.

Yes, i agree, Canada does need an Army, there is no question about it. But it does not need to grow to a point where it starts to piss people (countries) off. 

Americans - before you start to banter other countries, look at your own. You are the one who have over 90% of the world hate you. You are the ones who have airplanes flown into buildings and embassy‘s blown, so don‘t think we are ones who need protection from rediciously large armies.


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## patrick666 (18 Nov 2003)

Good old fashioned nationalism. Gotta love it.


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## jutes85 (18 Nov 2003)

Nationalism, yes, why live in a country that you hate?


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## jutes85 (18 Nov 2003)

> why was the US brought into the post? I am so confused


Take a look at the first post.



> I think we can all agree that chretin is no rocket scientist either


Well, i‘ve never heard him use words like "evil doers". It is a shame that such an intelligent nation has such a stupid president.



> LOL.....  nice one...


It is all true buddy.


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## jutes85 (18 Nov 2003)

Yes, i do understand what he says, i believe its called a French Acsent. 

Anyone else want to contribute to some American-Canadian country bashing? Don‘t worry it‘s all in good fun.


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## Duotone81 (30 Nov 2003)

jutes,



> Yes, i agree, Canada does need an Army, there is no question about it. But it does not need to grow to a point where it starts to piss people (countries) off.


That‘s that whole "if we didn‘t have any soldiers there wouldn‘t be any wars" mentality. IMHO that‘s flawed and naiive thinking. Would having 6 Infantry Regiments force us to change foreign policy and take a more proactive role in global affairs or would it mean better insurance for all future situations both domestic and foreign not to mention less strain on the men and women who are tasked with countless tours? Having a strong military is not indicative of foreign animosity. That‘s the job of piss poor statesmen.


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## Slim (30 Nov 2003)

nULL
Freedom isn‘t free...
too bad they didn‘t teach you that in university...


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## nULL (1 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by Slim:
> [qb] nULL
> Freedom isn‘t free...
> too bad they didn‘t teach you that in university... [/qb]


It‘d be really nice if someone could settle that word for me. Too many stupid people throwing that word around as justification to do stupid things. 

What I learned in high school was that "freedom" was a shi*ty justification for anything and could be used by just about anyone, from the "good guys" like you, to the "good guys" who crash planes into buildings. It‘s all relative, which is why "freedom" is such a ridiculous notion.


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## Infanteer (1 Dec 2003)

> It‘d be really nice if someone could settle that word for me. Too many stupid people throwing that word around as justification to do stupid things.
> 
> What I learned in high school was that "freedom" was a shi*ty justification for anything and could be used by just about anyone, from the "good guys" like you, to the "good guys" who crash planes into buildings. It‘s all relative, which is why "freedom" is such a ridiculous notion.


Its really good to see you learned what freedom is in highschool nIMWIT.  Its good to see you‘ve reached that Enlightened state that we were ignorant of until now.

Your relativist arguement is nice and academic, but in the real world, it means jacksh*t.  In the real world freedom becomes absolute reality to the "good guys" those who have to look it in the eye everyday.  Be thankful that "good guys" like Slim don‘t pay attention to dribble like yours when they are standing on the line, lest you become the next one watching your family members get raped infront of you before you are burned alive.  A little too viceral for you?  Check Slim‘s credentials out, he can probably tell you first hand about sh*t like that.  Some times you got to pick sides...if your equating what you‘ve been given to the freedom to live in caves and stone adulterous women to death, you got reception problems.  

If you think the "freedom" that "good guys" like us give your spoiled university-sodden a*s is such a ridiculous notion, go live in Angola.  Until then, on behalf of myself, Slim and the rest of the community, thanks for the lecture.


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

Well I‘ll be honest, I‘ve been staring at this forum for a half hour, and I would say that infanteer has parried with the critical strike. Although I‘m sure someone will try to say something inflammatory, as is often the case.
All that aside, I must say Bravo to infanteer for one of the finest postings I have seen on the site, I‘m completely out of words to describe that.

But while I‘m on my soapbox here, there was a little Arab bashing by the Major up there. 
So I think i‘ll turn the topic for the moment. (feel free to return to the original at anypoint....whatever it was.)

Have the Arabs become the new society for everyone to ride (In the same spirit westerners called the vietnamese gooks during the crusade against communism)?

Also will it become common place on this forum (And any other forum on the site) to insult,however subtle it may seem, a society that most people know next to nothing about? Other then, of course, the images that the media crams down our throats (towelheaded fanatics waving their ak‘s and shouting koranic verses)

Having grown up in the middle east and Canada (Father white, mother arab) I can tell you that the arabic language is so complex and beautifuL(poofter word I know) that there wouldn‘t even be a translation for a word as simple and childish as "Evil-doer" Perhaps it doesn‘t translate easily into Arabic so much as it translates into Arkansas-ian (pardon the guess at what the proper term is), or "we‘ll be right back after the next commercial, you‘re watching CNN headline news"-ian. 

 Also I can say for certain, that the majority of people living in the middle east, do not support stoning, and live in houses that are not carved out of rock. The middle east society is as complex and believe it or not in most cases..... "free" (OH I SAID THAT BAD WORD DIDNT I?) as ours, but of course, very, very very different. BUT that is another book altogether, and anyone who wants to talk about it is more then welcome to start a posting. I would like to but I‘ve already written so much here.

However, i also think it is entirely unfair to label president Bush as a moron, he did managed to win an election without getting the majority of votes as well as convince a large portion of an entire country of 300 million (give or take) that Saddam Hussein personally parachuted out of the 747 before it hit the WTC.(That was a joke but I‘m sure we all get it) 

So, stupid? No, Moron? No. Crafty, heartless, dirty, money grubbing, power thirsty? Perhaps. But how can we not stop stop to laugh, in a friendly manner, at his innocent, child-like attempts at eating pretzels...or playing with shiny objects.

Anyway back to my original point, seriously infanteer that was one of the finest and to the point postings yet and certainly goes to show anyone who thought something to the contrary, that the most important things you learn in life are not learned in highschool (I know it shocked me too), hope to see more.


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## nULL (1 Dec 2003)

ouch!

i think my point got a tad misinterpreted in there. apologies to all that were offended, or took it the wrong way.

i suppose what i meant to say was that when using the word "freedom" alone to justify doing something doesn‘t have much historical credibility. something like what infanteer said ("family members raped in front of you then burned to death") is much better. yeah, a tad visceral, but if everyone knew such things happened, then they‘d be a cry to stop it, and then it would be harder for world leaders to pursure their own agendas, right?


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

There‘s so much wrong with that statement, I don‘t know where to begin.

"DO you have any idea why president Bush uses the Term "Evil Doers?" Hmmm, lets see ....might be because it translates well into Arabic....who is stupid? Just a thought "

Alright, please sir if you‘re not calling Arabs stupid, please tell me who? I mean, most Arabs...do..speak..Arabic, and if it is Arabic that Evildoers translates so perfectly into, then we must be talking about Arabs.And if calling someone stupid, isn‘t considered bashing them, then what is?

And I‘ll deal with this first. 90% of Arabs are Muslim. I was raised half muslim and half christian (Which is impossible...yeah pretty much but it still happened), so if we are going to open up this can, by all means. So if we are just talking about muslims here, then 9 times out of 10 you‘re going to get an arab that is a muslim, and that is why it becomes offensive if you say you‘re just talking about muslims because 90% of Arabs are muslim. So take out 10% of them, and you‘ve still go 90% who are offended.


 "I would say I am not really keen on the muslim population that believes their ills cam be blamed entirely on the west, christian crusaders, or the zionists."

Ahhh the West (modern). They‘ve exploited the oil, and fought more proxy wars there then I can name. Backing Osama Bin Laden to fight the soviets, and in the process turn an entire country into a mine field. Although in the west‘s defence, we are trying to fix it now. Supported both Iraq and Iran in their war against each other, which is purported to be the bloodiest and most brutal war in this era (They‘re still negotiating over POW‘s and it ended before the first persian gulf).

Christian crusaders, is a problem native to the middle east, so once again back to the Arab question. It wasn‘t so much a problem with the number of lives lost in the crusades (It is very hard to find a definite number) It was a loss of the culture and everything attatched to it. The Arabs/Muslims had been very busy while the west was going through the "Dark ages‘ They had been translating every important work ever printed by anyone, into Arabic learning from it and cataloguing it in one of their HUGE librarys. ENTER the Crusaders, who not only Killed all the Arabs/Muslims/Jews/believe it or not christiansm, that they came across but Burned down the entire town, librarys and all. The works were lost, the history of the people was lost and the dignity of an entire religion an culutre was defaced by the crusaders. So yes it still is a touchy spot.

The Zionists...well...quite frankly this is a subject i do not normally touch with a 10 foot pole, but for you Maj. Anything. The zionist (it is important to distinguish between zionists and Jews RIGHT now) movement, began a war in what is today israel that displaced an entire population of people, turning them into permanent refugees. And is still in contradiction of a UN resolution (ah who cares). So it is not fair to say that all Muslims dislike the zionists (nothing is absolute), but the Palestinian people do not have a voice, someone must speak for them and who better then their muslim brothers (what else is religion good for really). As for television, which comes up later, if you watch a program on i think BET (a station we have in common with you guys down south) it is about donating money to send Jews home to Israel. One of the selling points is that "On average Palestinian familys have 5-7 children, so we need to send as many Jews home to Israel as we can to fight the future battles."

So in summary, it can at least be seen why the Muslim/Arab population of the Middle east CAN blame alot of their "ills" in the West‘s Exploitation, Christian Crusades and Zionism (which as we discussed is native to Palestine, but their fellow muslims have taken up the plight of the crippled people, much in the same spirit you find a Christian helping a fellow christian) And perhaps it isn‘t fair that Muslims blame their Ill‘s on the west, but is it fair that Americans blame THEIR ills on Muslims?

"the 12th century, that is something that they did on their own"

Just for clarification, who are "THey" and what are "They" doing in the 12th century? Last time I checked, Muslims (Arabs, Christians, Jews included) were being cut down and having their culture raped by what could be considered the west. SO I‘m not to sure how the Muslims cut themselves in Half vertically (as was the practice of the Christians). It presents a problem to say the least.

In the future could you please name the television show you were watching, it helps a great deal so I can get a better idea of where you are coming from sir(I do like to have a civil and fair debate). Also I think you will find that Muslims were far more Humane to civilians then the Christian crusaders had ever been and were less likely to be found burning down the librarys and hospitals. While it is never good when another country invades another, so perhaps it would have been fair if the television had shown another side(I mean..I didn‘t make it in the first place but...) but as far as occupation and "encroachments" go, the muslim conquest of Spain had been far more humane then the Christian crusades....or even the Spanish conquest of the new world.

"oh, by the way...not all arabs are muslim and not all muslims are arab, but of course you knew that." 

I did know that thankyou sir, but as I said before, 90% of arabs are muslim so when you insult the Muslim population, you also insult 90% of the Arab population.

Well this HAS turned into an excellent forum!!!!!!!!!!!


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

Oops I forgot to address one of the points.

"Maybe you can tell me why so many muslims apply for the US green card lottery every year? Seems to me that all I hear is how bad the west is but they are standing in line to get to the west....maybe you can comment?"

And how many Muslims/ARabs stay, of their own free will? I Wager it will be a far greater population than that that is leaving.

I have no figures in front of me, so perhaps we can postpone that point for a bit sir. We will come back to it of course, but for the moment we‘ll put it on the backburner until we can get some numbers.


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

Also Sir, I hope we can seperate debate and personal feelings, I‘d say that is the norm for this forum. But perhaps if you will excuse me for getting heated at times because this argument does strike a chord rather close to my home.
       So I apologise in advance if anything offends ANYone please, do not take it personally.


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

I‘m still not sure if I follow, perhaps it is just the way it was written out.
As long as that part of the posting is cleared up all is well.

Attitude based on getting shot at? Explain.

Either way you seem to have failed to address anything I wrote in response to your posting. Except for pointing out that you are not a hate mongerer.


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

Freedom Fries anyone?


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## Enzo (1 Dec 2003)

> I am not a hate monger and I take offence when someone suggests I am bashing anyone, unless it is the French.


Sorry, I had to laugh at that one. Bit of a contradiciton there eh?   

How do you feel Che? Need to go out and hit the bag for awhile? You articulated your points well; taught me a few things which I‘ll look into a bit closer at some point.

And no thanks, Freedom Fries contain transfat‘s, I think I‘ll just stick with Hommus & Pita.


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## Enzo (1 Dec 2003)

No one can be (unless you‘re French)


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## Enzo (1 Dec 2003)

Sorry, kidding. I grew up on the west coast in a Scottish household; in a town which considers itself more English than England. It‘s almost genetic to poke fun at those from Quebec in my family, but I‘m striving to rise above that - I just stumble a lot.

Besides, I love French woman. It‘s those loud little guys who hang around with them.

Oops, I tripped again


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

ah no hard feelings at all, this is all friendly discussion between soldiers.

If you would like to know more just ask, i‘ve got a wall full of books and head full of arguments about everything to a certain extent...except the french actually.

Yes, yes I know The "University sodden brat". But I worked through university and now I have loans to pay off and I serve the country for a living. haha you should see the looks the men give me, if I could read their minds I know what they‘d say 

"He‘s one of those god **** officers who reads more then he fights." 

But then again, so was Patton and of course "CHE"

If anyone has seen the movie "We were soldiers" kind of like the first impression of Mel Gibson, Minus the "Blow em all to **** " attitude.


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## muskrat89 (1 Dec 2003)

Che - All Baker was saying is that people often call Bush stupid, for using words like "evil-doers". If he used terms like that for a specific purpose, than he was not the stupid one - the people who deem him stupid are the stupid ones. Sheesh - I‘m stupid, and I even figured that one out, first time around....in no way was he implying arabs are stupid... although there may be a certain Arab-Canadian who is getting there, pretty quick......    

Infanteer - you be da man


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

Not getting stupid, Just very defensive about mass generalisations of an entire race and religion. As I‘m sure anyone else would be, were they in the same situation.

And I still don‘t think i followed it right, the way it was worded made it sound like evil-doers translated into Arabic easily. (which i followed) then he wrote. Who is stupid? Which if you are in the right mindset, sounds connected. Translates easily into arabic, who is stupid.... Ah there‘s no point.

BUT besides that , the topic has been dropped, we‘ve already established that despite how the Major put it, he did not mean what I thought he had said, all is well in forum-land.


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## winchable (1 Dec 2003)

Actually now I‘m just kind of waiting for a moderator to close this **** forum because it‘s gone so far off topic and it is getting so old.


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## jutes85 (2 Dec 2003)

I don‘t find anything wrong with this discussion. There is nothing wrong with expressing our opinion‘s, hey isn‘t that the whole point of "freedom".


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## jutes85 (2 Dec 2003)

Just to add:

Americans always try to do the right thing after they‘ve tried everything else.
- Winston Churchill
Americans are benevolently ignorant about Canada, while Canadians are malevolently well informed about the United States.
- J. Bartlett Brebner
Everyone has a right to a university degree in America, even if it‘s a PhD in Hamburger Technology.
- Clive James


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## Spr.Earl (2 Dec 2003)

Good one‘s there guy‘s LOL.

The sign of a good sense of humour is being able to laff at one‘s own foible‘s.


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## OLD SCHOOL (2 Dec 2003)

I especially like the quote by Al Capone.
It sums up a self centered attitude of ‘ the world revolves around me ‘ and he of course was such a class act.     I would imagine that he was and is one of a large percentage who are ignorant to the world around them. Tough for the U.S. to hack out a foreign policy supported by the people if the people have no ****in idea where those foreign lands are.   
I am not political and my friends are plentiful in the U.S Special Forces but I could not help but notice that a little education in geography would help a few that I have met.

Reading the Economist as it came through my front door, I would have to agree with most of what was said. I am not exactly off to join the Michigan militia  :threat:   but our government weenies really are a unique bunch of self serving cowards for the most part.  :dontpanic:


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## Spr.Earl (2 Dec 2003)

Subject:  Proud to be Canadian 





  NOW THIS IS SOMETHING TO SIT DOWN AND THINK ABOUT 



  Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 300 employees and has the following statistics: 



  30 have been accused of spousal abuse 

  9 have been arrested for fraud 

  14 have been accused of writing bad cheques 

  95 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 

  businesses 

  4 have done time for assault 

  55 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit 

  12 have been arrested on drug related charges 

  4 have been arrested for shoplifting 

   16 are currently defendants in lawsuits 

  62 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year 



  Can you guess which organization this is? 





  It is the 301 MP‘s in the Canadian Parliament. 

  The same group that cranks out hundred of new laws designed 

  to keep the rest of us in line. 

Which one did you vote for? 

TAKEN FROM THE OTTAWA CITIZEN


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## OLD SCHOOL (2 Dec 2003)

O.K that‘s it then.
We are starting our own Militia.
We can call it ‘You forgot us in the west and now were ****in pissed militia ‘
Now if I could just apply for a gun license, because we all know that it is impossible to get a gun unless you have one.    
****in $ 1,000,000,000 later, and they can‘t even return a god **** e-mail. Retards.   
Some of those MP‘s would have trouble getting one,but they are only interested in kickbacks anyway.Retards


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## Spr.Earl (2 Dec 2003)

Old School I‘m ROTFLMAO !!!!
A gooder man!!!!!!!!

Oh,we get free ale in this Militia?

Still laff‘n!!!!!!


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## OLD SCHOOL (2 Dec 2003)

Ale and Ammo will be our theme song.
Now let‘s ruck up and get our asses in the woods!
I have no idea what to do once we get there but since we have ale and ammo, everything should work out nicely.  :blotto:    :sniper:    :crybaby:  

If not, we can shoot some squirrels and knock up somebody‘s cousin.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Dec 2003)

Hey where do i sign up? I‘m good in the woods and my pa is a bit of a redneck, has a whole closet under the stairs full of rifles and pistols.


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## Spr.Earl (2 Dec 2003)

If you get the Explosive‘s,Us boy‘s like our Boom Boom‘s!You‘ll have a Fld.Sqn 

What we‘ll do is light a fire,crack a load of brown rocket‘s,put our helmet‘s on and tell War Stories.
Then we go out and knock up some one‘s cousin!
Sound good?

P.S.Our Cousin‘s from the South are welcome as   long as you bring decent ale or good Shine!


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## OLD SCHOOL (2 Dec 2003)

Maybe they can bring their cousin‘s.


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## Spr.Earl (3 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by OLD SCHOOL:
> [qb] Maybe they can bring their cousin‘s.      [/qb]


Yeh then no need to go out!       :blotto:


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## Enzo (3 Dec 2003)

Old School - Tell us, how do you really feel.

As for those stats. What do you say to that? This governing system of ours has proven itself to be morally and ethically bankrupt. I was raised to believe in honour and justice. I wonder what‘s been taught in the houses of our politicians?


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## Enzo (3 Dec 2003)

Earl, any names to match those stats?


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## Spr.Earl (3 Dec 2003)

No,just a email I recieved.


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## jutes85 (3 Dec 2003)

Most of those Quotes mentioned by the major are all regarding how Canada is a cold place to live. How can we be blamed as to where we live. By the way it is not always cold "up here", during the summer months Canada is one of the hottest places on earth. Where i live it can get to 40 degrees (C), i don‘t think that is that cold.


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## muskrat89 (3 Dec 2003)

> during the summer months Canada is one of the hottest places on earth


jutes - I‘d like to see you substantiate that - it‘s very interesting


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## Slim (3 Dec 2003)

Infanteer
Thanks Bud...Nice to know that some one else "gets it."
soldier on.


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## Slim (3 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by nULL:
> [qb] ouch!
> 
> 
> i suppose what i meant to say was that when using the word "freedom" alone to justify doing something doesn‘t have much historical credibility[/qb]


nULL
When I said that freedom isn‘t free, what I meant was this:
-The freedom to live without fear for yourself, your wife and family and in a safe place. 
-The freedom to speak your mind with out fear of reprocussion ( as you have done!) of any kind, be it physical, financial,moral or whatever.
-The freedom to pursue your life, goals and desires without fear of reprocussion.

Countries that forget that freedom has to be guarded and cherished often loose it. It would surprise you to find out just how many countries in the world would give anything to live in the society that we do.
Like it or not the national institution that safeguards our freedom is a nation‘s armed forces. Because without them words DO NOT HOLD WEIGHT. just think of the schoolyard bully...did he stop because you asked him to or because he was made to ( by either yourself or someone else).
I don‘t mean to lecture or belittle you or anyone else...But really when it comes down to the line you MUST fight for yourself and yours.
I think that Soldiers ( sailors and airmen) understand this better than anyone because they are faced with the prospect of having to do just that, and possibly suffering the consequences.
Cheers
Slim


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## Danjanou (3 Dec 2003)

Muskrat, Maybe Jutes is talking about the Parade Square in Aldersh!t, can get kind of hot in the rectum of the world.    

Old School, me and my liquor cabinet full of duty free hootch are in! I‘ll even bring a real compass (Silva  not those cruddy issued Finnish ones) so we can actually find those squirrels.

I say invite the good Major and his cousins. They may not have any good ale down there but a couple of bottles of  Jim Bean, Jack Daniel‘ or some other fine sippin whiskey would go down fine.  :blotto:  

Seriously Enzo, most, no probably all of us here were raised the same way. Probably the reason we choose to put the uniform on in the first place. Shame that both those who direct us  and those who we purport to serve and protect lack the same high standards we have eh.

Ah well some pass the bottle. I feel I need a long pull right now.


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## jutes85 (3 Dec 2003)

"I‘d like to see you substantiate that "

Take a look at all of the forest fires that we had here in BC. This was one of the hottest and dryest year in BC history. It was so hot that when i went golfing, i was basically the only one out on the course because most of the "old folk" could not take the heat.

Perhaps in my area it was not as high as 40, but i know for a fact that in southern BC, in the Kelowna, Penticton and Osoyoos area, it was just untolerable.


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## muskrat89 (3 Dec 2003)

Ohhhh...that makes sense      

Forest fires are more a function of drought, insect damage, and poor management practices, than heat. We burned 500,000 acres here in Arizona last year. California even more this year. 40 degrees? Sorry that hardly qualifies it as the hottest place on earth. Goofy comments like that confirm a lack of credibility on the rest of your posts, frankly. My first summer in Phoenix topped out at 118. The year before that they had a 121 degree day. We routinely see 115 degree days here, in the summer, and I wouldn‘t even classify Arizona as one of the "hottest places on earth". Supposedly in Iraq, up until recently, coalition forces were enduring 120 and 130 degrees.....

I doubt very much Canada is one of the hottest places on earth, my friend.....


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## Danjanou (3 Dec 2003)

Only in lotus land would you actually get a Canadian complaining about the weather being too hot


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## muskrat89 (3 Dec 2003)

Well, unlike the rest of Canada, it is "one of the hottest places on earth", after all......

That would probably explain the effectiveness of hydroponics, in BC........    :blotto:


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## winchable (3 Dec 2003)

Those are farenheit..you‘re talking to canadians here...see this is why our countries don‘t get along.
What are they in celcius? I know they‘re obviously hotter then Canada, but I have never been able to get the conversion down right.
And I dont think I‘ve ever heard anyone say that Canada is hot...ever...
Where it is hot, Jutes, is nearer to the equator. Like the Sahara, it is about 57.8 degrees celcius there.
For the most part, the weather up here isn‘t hot and isn‘t cold, its mediocre...sort of like our baseball teams.


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## jutes85 (3 Dec 2003)

What i mean by ONE of the hottest places on earth is where people reside. I doubt that there are people living in Death Valley or the Sahara Desert. 

I‘ve lived in many places where the summer tempertures get around 40 degrees C, Israel for example. In my experience, Southern BC, not necessarily the rest of Canada, ranks right up there.


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## winchable (3 Dec 2003)

I‘d like to see some comparison charts personally, not that I don‘t trust you.
Do you have a website you could refer me to?


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## muskrat89 (3 Dec 2003)

> Those are farenheit..you‘re talking to canadians here


That‘s funny - I‘m a Canadian, too,....      

46 C = 114.8 F
48 C = 118.4 F
50 C = 120.0 F
55 C = 131.0 F

Edited to remove the word "troll" - in retrospect, it was inappropriate


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## winchable (3 Dec 2003)

Easy there,
I hope you can understand why i thought you were American, you‘re forum postings all say you‘re from pheonix.
No need to be uncivil though, It was meant as a humorus comment more then anything else.


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## muskrat89 (3 Dec 2003)

Degrees Celsius = 5/9(F-32)

Degrees Fahrenheit = 9/5 C + 32

Source: Pocket Ref by Thomas J Glover
Copyright 1996-97
ISBN # 1-885071-00-0
Page 200


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## winchable (3 Dec 2003)

I wasn‘t asking for a reference from you, i believed you, it was jute‘s saying that BC ranks up there as being a very hot place when it is compared to other inhabited places.


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## jutes85 (3 Dec 2003)

http://www.sunshines.com/tourism/osoyoos.htm 

Scroll down past the map and you‘ll get this quote: "Osoyoos is a really hot place in summer: the usual temperature from April till late September is about +30C and up to the +40-ies C"

I could not find any charts regarding Canada since it is considered a place with no running water. I don‘t need to prove anything, i‘ve been there myself and that is all i need to know for myself.

Hmmm, this topic went from Canadians slandered, to Americans slandered, to Arabs slandered, and now to a debate on climate, interesting how things get turned around so quickly.........Next topic, "Do you believe in God".


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## muskrat89 (3 Dec 2003)

Surely you don‘t give any credibility to his outlandish statements.. lol

Do a search on "hottest places on earth" Burnaby, Nelson, Salmon Arm are nowhere to be seen....as a matter of fact NO BC communities, nor Canadian ones

You might see Libya, or Death Valley, CA


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## OLD SCHOOL (3 Dec 2003)

I suggest if you want to play ‘ hot or not ‘ then go down to Robson street and look at the scenery.
Enough to make an old guy cry.        :crybaby:


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## jutes85 (3 Dec 2003)

No, i just gave an example of a hot place in Canada.


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## winchable (3 Dec 2003)

Bang on Muskrat,
El Azizia, Libya,
The hottest place on earth at 57.8 Degrees celcius.
Outlandish statements are the fun ones, It can ruin credibility faster then any other kind.
And Jutes I‘m pretty sure you said the hottest place on earth.

"during the summer months Canada is one of the hottest places on earth."

Ah this is petty anyways.
They should just call this forum, "Well what the **** do you have to say?"


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## Infanteer (3 Dec 2003)

Well I‘m from BC, and the girls say I‘m hot.


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## jutes85 (3 Dec 2003)

Thanks for pointing that out Che       , you must feel really proud.   :boring:


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## OLD SCHOOL (3 Dec 2003)

Jutes, I see you have your coordinates listed. Better be nice or someone might drop a round in on you.  :warstory:


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## Jarnhamar (3 Dec 2003)

It hit 40C in petawawa this summer. Thats hot. Obviously if your sitting on the equator or on the frigging sun it‘s going to be hotter. Petawawa has also dropped below -40C in the winter. Thats quite the difference. 

Jutes is wrong, but,  the guy is from russia, EVERYTHING is hot to him


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## winchable (3 Dec 2003)

Proud about what?


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## winchable (3 Dec 2003)

If you‘re asking if I am Proud about exposing poorly worded, contradictory statements, and poorly supported arguments on a forum where there is nothing better to do then sit on our thumbs and rotate while the world passes us by, and argue about things that have absolutely no relevance. 
Which only further degrades the army by attaching its proud name to our mindless chatter and dribble about the weather. So much so that it‘s at a point where I can‘t stand it anymore, but I have to come back because I am strangely drawn to that very same argument just because its more interesting then anything that‘s on TV right now...


Yes, yes I am.


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## jutes85 (3 Dec 2003)

I think we should just get back to discussing "Current Affairs". Agreed?


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## Danjanou (3 Dec 2003)

I thought we were. Isn‘t that what guys do all day sit around with their thumbs up the orafice of choice discussing the weather and sippin whisky    

Now on to more important things. Both Old School and Infanteer raised an important climate related subject a couple of posts back. I personally think it deserves some more debate, and possibly a field trip. that is at elast until something good comes on TV tonight.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Dec 2003)

"poorly supported arguments on a forum where there is nothing better to do then sit on our thumbs and rotate while the world passes us by, and argue about things that have absolutely no relevance."

Che if you have so many better things to do you could always stop comming here and do them. 

"I can‘t stand it anymore, but I have to come back because I am strangely drawn to that very same argument"  
Why not go to the local pound and walk some dogs, thats helpful and good karma.


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## winchable (4 Dec 2003)

It was meant as a sarcastic, sort of humorus rant.
It seems that humor is completeltly lost on folks here sometimes.

and they won‘t let me walk the dogs anymore....something about them all coming back tired of listening to their owners talk on and on about things with no relevnace.
Yes, we have talking dogs in Halifax.
They drank the harbour water, and now they talk...Further proof that chemicals DO have a good purpose in todays society.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Dec 2003)

Navy Humor perhaps?   

I heard you guy have a mclobster. Maybe the guys in the economist magazine would change their opinion if they had some canadian take out!


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## winchable (4 Dec 2003)

You‘re on to me...blast.

The McLobster isn‘t bad,
Isn‘t Canadian take-out all chinese food anyway?


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