# Starting a Career as an ATIS Tech



## CDN Monkeyman

Hello All

I am remustering to ATIS Tech and will be heading to POET in Aug 2011 and I have some questians do we get posted after POET or after our 3's.  How long between the two courses do we have to wait or is that just up to the school.  Is Greenwood a good place for a first posting or should I try to stay in Ottawa?  

thank you


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## Sigger

Coming from an ATIS Tech, your posting will be after your 3's. The wait between POET and 3's depends obviously on crse availability. Your posting will be what you make it. Some love it some hate it.


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## Bert

The ATIS trade has many posting opportunities coast to coast.  Not 
sure how easy it may be to get your posting of choice.  Greenwood 
is a nice spot in the Annapolis Valley dotted with little towns.  Close 
to coast and Fundy, lots of yard sales, New Minas is 25 mins away 
for shopping, and Halifax about an hour and a half away.  ATIS techs
mainly work at 14 Wing Telecommunications and Support Squadron 
(WTIS) on base supporting radios, coastal radar, IT, networks, 
crypto, and airfield.


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## Nim

Not to mention, that if you hit the jackpot, you can be an OUTCAN ATIS, like the two of them that are here in Elmendorf AFB, Alaska.  Welcome to the trade.


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## 226r

CDN Monkeyman said:
			
		

> Hello All
> 
> I am remustering to ATIS Tech and will be heading to POET in Aug 2011 and I have some questians do we get posted after POET or after our 3's.  How long between the two courses do we have to wait or is that just up to the school.  Is Greenwood a good place for a first posting or should I try to stay in Ottawa?
> 
> thank you




First off, welcome to the trade. I made my quick escape from Kingston after I graduated my 3's there almost a year ago. Being so fresh from the system and young I know alot of people that are still kicking around there. Alot of them have experienced waits as long as 8 months to get on their 3's. On the bright side of that though, PAT platoon is doing what they can to send people expecting long waits on OJT to bases close to home, or what works out best. I did 3 months at ATESS in Trenton while waiting for my 3's, another friend of mine did 6 months at WTIS in Winnipeg, by choice. 

As for your first posting, I went to a very very small place in Nova Scotia and the CM realized that it is no good for PTEs after i arrived. Mind you, I enjoy it very much. Any base would be a very good first posting, for the first year or two you will probably get thrown around to different shops so you can see what each of the units does.


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## JBP

Howdy ATIS folks!

I'm currently a Sig Op but labelled as a new 'IST'... I'm curious about the idea of OT'ing to your trade. I'm wondering if it would end up being worth it or not, as in, is the grass actually greener on the other side or not? Spec pay obviously is nice, but money isn't everything so I'm wondering how overall job satisfaction is. Furthermore, I'm currently an LCSS Administrator and would like to stay in the computerish realm of things. Would that be a possibility with the military and civilian IS/IT training I have? Or is it like the LCIS and Sig Op trades where it's a total crap shoot as to what end of the job spectrum you'll end up doing?

Also, how's career progression and/or promotion opportunity? I"m guessing you guys are mostly a full trade generally. 

Thanks ahead of time for the thoughts/comments/bashing!


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## Occam

You wouldn't be able to avoid doing non-IT stuff (Navaids, Airfield comms, etc) for very long.  IT is but a small portion of the ATIS world.  There are postings that are entirely IT-related, but they're in the minority.

Progression is pretty good, if you can manage to stay working for ATIS Techs and avoid falling into the chain of command of Sig Ops/LCIS Techs.


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## Motaba

Sig Joeschmo said:
			
		

> Howdy ATIS folks!
> 
> I'm currently a Sig Op but labelled as a new 'IST'... I'm curious about the idea of OT'ing to your trade. I'm wondering if it would end up being worth it or not, as in, is the grass actually greener on the other side or not? Spec pay obviously is nice, but money isn't everything so I'm wondering how overall job satisfaction is. Furthermore, I'm currently an LCSS Administrator and would like to stay in the computerish realm of things. Would that be a possibility with the military and civilian IS/IT training I have? Or is it like the LCIS and Sig Op trades where it's a total crap shoot as to what end of the job spectrum you'll end up doing?
> 
> Also, how's career progression and/or promotion opportunity? I"m guessing you guys are mostly a full trade generally.
> 
> Thanks ahead of time for the thoughts/comments/bashing!


I've been an ATIS for about 6 yrs. Last 4.5 yrs purely IT. There are more and more IT positions going to civies. I'm doing my first deployment in a couple of months, then OTing....this trade isn't for me.


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## Bert

Sig Joeschmo
The ATIS trade as well as other trades are in transition challenged 
by the "black hole" in demographics and technology evolution.  
If considering an OT, ask alot of questions before the big jump.

If to over-generalize, the LCIS trade is/was about 85% the same 
the ATIS.  We both deal with IT systems, mobile radio, various 
bands of RF eqt, telecom, cable plant, PCs, sys admin, in many 
settings deployed, on tasking, or on base.  The difference is 
mainly with element specific systems and settings, fixed versus 
mobile, radar, UAV, and airfield/ATC support systems as Occam 
noted.  

Legacy systems in the air force are more and more being replaced 
or updated with IT based or controlled systems and its common to
log into a computer before you can do anything.

Is the grass greener over here?  Its all perspective I guess.  The 
ATIS trade will remain highly diverse from a technical viewpoint,
the Wings and other units are scattered across Canada providing
a change of location, the CM moves members around and you 
should see different corners of the trade, promotion is good 
because of and no thanks to the black hole.  There is the good 
mixed with the not so good like everything else.  

So far, I like the trade and got to travel around like the 
advertisement said.


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## RDY2SRV12

Greetings,

I currently have ATIS selected as my first trade choice. I came across this thread and was hoping to get some more insight into the life of an ATIS Tech.

In addition to any information you care to share can you tell me;

1) Is this trade suitable for a married person, when compared to other Air Force trades such as AVN; what % of time would one spend away from home on TD etc.

2) What is the best thing about this trade (generally) and the worst.

3) All things being equal is this the best trade in the Air Force for career progression and opportunity.

4) Anything I should know before signing up for this trade.

Regards,


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## Occam

Most of your questions can't be answered.  There are too many variables.

Some positions are going to have more time away from home than others.  There's nothing you can do about that.  All you can do is consider that whatever position you're in will likely change every 3-4 years at most, so even a difficult position will have a light at the end of the tunnel.  Every job in the CF is suited to a married person - if your spouse is willing to be reasonable.

As far as career progression goes, it's what you make it.  If you volunteer for deployments and taskings, you're going to shine brighter than the guy on cruise control who does his work and goes home at the end of the day.  There's a saying that goes "You're your own best career manager" - that means you have the most control over your own career by seeking out opportunities.  It doesn't matter what trade you're in, if you sit back and be the average guy, you'll likely end up with average opportunity for advancement.  There will always be promotions, some more years than others.

ATIS Tech is a pretty decent trade.  You'll have marketable skills with direct transferability to civvie street when you make the transition someday.


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## RDY2SRV12

Thanks makes sense.

I am actually planning on staying in this time around, at 36 years old the only thing I want to transition to is a pension and weekend BBQ's after my 20 is up. I am just nervous about making the right choice, for me and my wife. She is totally on board, but everyone has their limits.


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## Occam

You know that it's 25 years for a pension now, right?  I don't know the details of how split time plays into it, but anyone joining now has to do 25 years, not 20.  Of course, you'd hit CRA at 24, so I don't think that'll matter much.


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## RDY2SRV12

As it was explained to me I can still qualify for 40% after 20, or if I stay the 24 it would be 46%. Maybe by 2038 things will change in my favor or I can argue a case to let me finish the 25. Also not sure how my reserve time would work into it, probably not at all.

This is also the root of my other question in another post RE: staying in Ontario as long as possible (not including deployments or TD) my wife has 22 years in her job with 8 more to go for her full pension, I can not, and will not ask her to give that up because I get stationed in Comox or Greenwood etc.

I am reading through the MOC Task statements and I found it interesting that for ATIS it defines up to CWO but for AVN it stops at SGT. Is SGT. the end of the road for an AVN or do they change MOC after promotion to WO?

Regards,


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## Occam

I'm not sure about the pension.  It would definitely be something I would get researched in depth before signing on the dotted line to ensure you don't get any surprises.  One thing is clear though - you'd probably want to buy back your PRes time so that it contributes to your pension, and you want to do that immediately on enrolment as I think the cost goes up if you delay starting the repayment (I think you need to start paying it back within one year or it starts to cost you more).

As for AVN Tech career progression, I'm pretty sure you've nailed it.  They Occupation Transfer (OT) as part of their normal career progression.


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## RDY2SRV12

From what I have found the CF Pension is regulated pretty much the same as the Public service pension, and that if you pay into the pension you are entitled to something after Two years of pensionable service. http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._396/index.html

The difference being your age factor wheras if you retire after 25 years you can recieve your pension at 55. Less than 25 years would add a year to the wait by each year short, IE if you retire with 24 years you do not recieve pension payment until 56 years of age (up to 60). It also appears to be relatively easy to transfer to a public service position and continue paying in where you left off up to a maximum of 35 years worth of public service.

As for my case, depending on how much credit I recieve for Reserve time I may be just under the wire for 25 years service, or short less than a year which may work in my favor, IE if I have 24 years and 8 months service would they really kick me out 4 months short?

Just to be sure I am going to contact the administration on this and I am sharing the email here in case anyone else comes across this issue and needs to investigate. PensiondesForces.ForcesPension@tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca

RE: the buy back, that is on my list of things to do as soon as I can. We are doing the same for my wife as she has a number of years working for the city as a teenager before she became full time, which should reduce the number of years that we will be separated on my enrolment. 

RE: AVN, well that helps make my choice easier I am hoping to become an expert in one trade and with luck and grit retire with a heavy sleeve cuff!


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## Occam

You seem to have done your homework...definitely confirm it though.

As for the "would they really kick me out 4 months short" question - yes, the hard ceiling for CRA is 60.  I would say it's moot to you as you become immediately eligible for a pension at age 60 regardless of years of service, and your pension is actually calculated using days of service not years, so every single day counts.  Retirement age is actually 55 and you can apply for one year extensions there onwards to age 60.  I've heard that most extension requests are granted but I would fully expect that to change in the current fiscal environment.  You're actually looking a couple of decades down the road though, so who knows?

I meant to ask - your wife has 8 more years to a full pension.  Your chances are pretty good to get at least one posting to Trenton if you ask for it, simply based on the number of positions there.  Have you considered how things will play out if you're posted to more distant locations?  I've been out since September last year, but I know a lot of things have changed since then, including the policy on IR.  Can you even do multi-year IRs anymore?  Anyone?  Bueller?


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## aesop081

RDY2SRV12 said:
			
		

> RE: AVN, well that helps make my choice easier I am hoping to become an expert in one trade and with luck and grit retire with a heavy sleeve cuff!



You're not quite understanding what happens to an AVN after promotion to WO so i wouldn't make a decision just yet.

The aircraft technician trades, along with flight engineers, all become AM SUP upon promotion to WO. They stay in the aircraft maintenance world, continue to work in flying Sqns, but are now "in charge" of supervising unit maintenance functions.

It's not like you start your career all over agin in something completely different. It is just part of the career progression.

Be careful making career decisions based on assumptions.


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## aesop081

Occam said:
			
		

> I've heard that most extension requests are granted but I would fully expect that to change in the current fiscal environment.



The arrival this year of 35/55 guarantees that CRA 60 will be the exception.


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## RDY2SRV12

My plan goes something like this; (My service)-(Wife time to pension)

Year 1 and most of year 2 training St. Jean and Kingston - 6 years
During this time we will make arrangements to see each other on weekends. As it works out she has family in Montreal and loves to drive!
First Posting Trenton (Hopefully) Avg 3 years (I assume)   - 3 years 
Purchase house in Cobourg or Port Hope with permission (<40KM Geographic boundary) both commute daily.
Second posting ? Any Ontario  Avg 3 years (I assume)      - 0 years problem solved

If I can manage to stay in Trenton for 6 years all is good. If not we will cross that when we come to it. During any posting that we are forced to be separated I will volunteer for everything that comes down the pipe to A) make the time go faster B) should be good to get career off the ground.

RE: homework; if University has taught me anything it is how to research!


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## RDY2SRV12

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You're not quite understanding what happens to an AVN after promotion to WO so i wouldn't make a decision just yet.
> 
> The aircraft technician trades, along with flight engineers, all become AM SUP upon promotion to WO. They stay in the aircraft maintenance world, continue to work in flying Sqns, but are now "in charge" of supervising unit maintenance functions.
> 
> It's not like you start your career all over agin in something completely different. It is just part of the career progression.
> 
> Be careful making career decisions based on assumptions.



Good to know, thanks. Yes, avoiding assumptions is why when I am not doing PT I seem to be sitting here voraciously reading everything I can. I wish it were possible to go to Trenton and speak to/see in action the various trades. I am taking a huge risk leaving school to pursue this career path. I hope in the end that I do make the right decision.


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## RDY2SRV12

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The arrival this year of 35/55 guarantees that CRA 60 will be the exception.



Can you expand on this? It looks like service/age = factor 80. Which is actually pretty good, for my wife it is age/service factor = 90, however with early Ret. allowable with 55/30.


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## aesop081

RDY2SRV12 said:
			
		

> Can you expand on this? It looks like service/age = factor 80. Which is actually pretty good, for my wife it is age/service factor = 90, however with early Ret. allowable with 55/30.
> 
> 
> No, not like that at all. Official details will come soon.


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## RDY2SRV12

*Follow up;* I just spoke to the good people at Forces Pensions and was given the following information;

Any service 2 years or more qualifies for a pension.

The formula is 2 X years of service = % of average of last five years. For Example 25 years served = 50% 

At 60 one can also serve five more years as a cadet instructor in order to top up years of service to a maximum of 35 years.

Reserve time must be bought back in the first year of Regular force service.

So for my situation I am good to go I will have my 25 years by CRA 60. Hope this helps anyone interested in this topic.


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## aesop081

RDY2SRV12 said:
			
		

> Any service 2 years or more qualifies for a pension.



Careful there. After 2 years, the pension is deferred to age 65 unless you serve to 25 (or 20 for many of us).



			
				RDY2SRV12 said:
			
		

> At 60 one can also serve five more years as a cadet instructor in order to top up years of service to a maximum of 35 years.



There is no entitlement to serve until 60. CRA is 55 unless the needs of the service require you to stay longer.


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## PMedMoe

RDY2SRV12 said:
			
		

> Reserve time must elected to be bought back in the first year of Regular force service.



FTFY.   

One hint about buying back Res (or previous) time is to start with a low amount because you can raise it, but if you start high, you can't lower it.


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## RDY2SRV12

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Careful there. After 2 years, the pension is deferred to age 65 unless you serve to 25 (or 20 for many of us).



Yes, the timing of when you get your pension paid out is another story all together. I think that is where the changes you had mentioned above come in. 

I also forgot to mention that any Federal public service, including RCMP, can also count towards pensionable service to the 35 Year max.


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## RDY2SRV12

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Careful there. After 2 years, the pension is deferred to age 65 unless you serve to 25 (or 20 for many of us).
> 
> *There is no entitlement to serve until 60.* CRA is 55 unless the needs of the service require you to stay longer.



Unless I am interpreting the Q. R. & O incorrectly; it is dependant on when you enrolled, if you have made any elections to adjust your service eligibility, your rank, and if you are an officer or not; in reference to myself, or any NCM enrolled after 1 July 2004, 60 is the age;

Section 3 - Non-commissioned Members
15.31 - RELEASE OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS - AGE AND LENGTH OF SERVICE
(1 July 2004)
(12) Table "E" applies to a non-commissioned member of the Regular Force who
commenced his service as a non-commissioned member of the Regular Force on or after 1 July 2004; 
or
was serving as a non-commissioned member of the Regular Force on 30 June 2004 and, in accordance with orders issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, is offered and accepts to have Table "E" apply to him.
(1 July 2004)
(13) This article is a regulation made for the purposes of paragraph 15(1)(b) of the Canadian Human Rights Act.
(1 July 2004)
(G) (P.C. 2004-751 of 17 June 2004 effective 1 July 2004)
Table "E" TO ARTICLE 15.31
AGE 60 RELEASE - NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS 
Rank	Age
All ranks	60
(G) (P.C. 2004-751 of 17 June 2004 effective 1 July 2004)

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp#cha-015-17


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## aesop081

RDY2SRV12 said:
			
		

> Unless I am interpreting the Q. R. & O incorrectly; it is dependant on when you enrolled, if you have made any elections to adjust your service eligibility, your rank, and if you are an officer or not; in reference to myself, or any NCM enrolled after 1 July 2004, 60 is the age;



Listen to me very carefully: Electing for CRA 60 does not create an entitlement to serve until age 60.

Clear now ?


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## agc

He doesn't need to elect CRA 60, because he came in after the cut off of 1 July 2004.

However, you are quite correct that the CF is not obligated to offer anyone TOS that take them to their CRA be it 55 or 60, and that those who were enrolled before 1 July 2004 don't necessarily get another 5 years svc just by making an election for CRA 60.


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## RDY2SRV12

Ah, I believe I understand what you are saying, correct me if I am wrong as I am here to learn;

After my initial 5 year contract the CF can offer TOS up to age 60, but is not obligated to do so; they could offer a term of any number of years depending on the projected needs of the forces. So, although the CRA may be 60 there is no guarantee that one will be offered the requisite years to make it to that point. Correct? 
(Thanks for taking the time to clear these important issues up.)


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## aesop081

There will be a CANFORGEN out later this year, that will explain 35/55 to everyone.


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## agc

If you meet the requirements, you'll be offered further terms of service IAW CMP Instr 05/05.  For some reason, I'm having trouble googlizing this or I'd paste in a link.  Find it and read it, if you really want to know how it works.  Basically there is a sequence by occupation that begins with the Variable Initial Engagement (VIE), may have 1 or more Continuing Engagements (CE), followed by an Intermediate Engagement - 25 (IE25).  The CF may or may not offer another CE (typically for 5) or an Indefinite Period of Service that takes the member to their CRA (which may be age 55 or 60 as discussed).  Further TOS could be offered across the board in a given rank within an occupation, or it may be a competition.


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