# I guess democracy doesn't work...protests on Afghan mission.



## Franko (15 Mar 2008)

Reference the fair share thingy....

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080314/afghan_protests_080314/20080314?hub=TopStories



> *Group plans 20-city protests over Afghan mission*
> 
> Updated Fri. Mar. 14 2008 5:56 PM ET
> 
> ...



Oh the peace nicks from Freddy are at it again. Perhaps they'll be passing out some more tasteless yellow ribbons?

Now this one gets me.

MP Peggy Nash wonders if we'll be debating the mission again in a few years. Ya think? Seeing as they, along with Layton, instigated the whole debate debacle....one would think that all NDP MPs were onboard and would relish any debate at all.

As for yet another protest, more than likely a small turn out at all of them, I guess that the NDP had to go this route after their attempts to get the mission shut down in Parliament yesterday failed.

Maybe I'll go just to have a good laugh...now where's my tour sweater?        ;D

Regards


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## Mike Baker (15 Mar 2008)

> St. John's, N.L.;



Hmm, when is this? I want to go in, an voice my opinion to them. 

Fellow Newfs (and anyone else that can get there)! Gather 'round! We shall have our own protest to protest their protest! All you Veterans, Soldiers, Sailors, Air Force personall, an those of us joining or just want the Afghan people to have a better life, get ready. Let's show them that what we are doing really does make a difference. Let's show them the truth.

Anyone in?


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## McG (15 Mar 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Canada should end its combat role in Afghanistan and adopt a new approach of providing aid under the United Nations instead of NATO, said New Democrat MP Peggy Nash


Why has nobody very publicly reminded the NDP that the NATO mission is authorized under a UN Security Counsel resolution which calls on member nations to contribute troops to ISAF?


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 Mar 2008)

I always thought the Afghan mission was done by NATO at the behest of the United Nations?


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## Good2Golf (15 Mar 2008)

The horses are loose, best protest and close the gate....


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## The Bread Guy (15 Mar 2008)

Here's a list of where events are scheduled - details on the link:

CALGARY, AB
CASTLEGAR, BC
CHARLOTTETOWN, PEI
EDMONTON, AB
FREDERICTON, NB
GRAND FORKS, BC
GUELPH, ON
LONDON, ON
MISSISSAUGA
MONTREAL, QC
NELSON, BC
OTTAWA, ON
SARNIA, ON
TORONTO, ON
VANCOUVER, BC
VICTORIA, BC
WINDSOR, ON
WINNIPEG, MB



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> Why has nobody very publicly reminded the NDP that the NATO mission is authorized under a UN Security Counsel resolution which calls on member nations to contribute troops to ISAF?



From the latest UN Security Council endorsing resolution attached (.pdf) - feel free to share the love:


> (....)
> Reiterating its support for the continuing endeavours by the Afghan Government, with the assistance of the international community, including ISAF and the Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) coalition, to improve the security situation and to continue to address the threat posed by the Taliban, Al-Qaida and other extremist groups, and stressing in this context the need for sustained international efforts, including those of ISAF and the OEF coalition,
> (....)
> Recognizing the robust efforts taken by ISAF and other international forces to minimize the risk of civilian casualties, notably the continuous review of tactics and procedures and the conduct of after-action reviews in cooperation with the Afghan Government in cases where civilian casualties have reportedly occurred,
> ...


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## Remius (15 Mar 2008)

Anybody going to the Teach-in at the Ottawa Public library?


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## Big Foot (15 Mar 2008)

From the Nelson, BC program info:


> Program will include NDP MP Alex Atamanenko, *Francisco Juarez (former Canadian Army Lieutenant who refused deployment to Afghanistan)*, and several local speakers and poets. Selections from "Winter Soldier: Iraq & Afghanistan," featuring testimony from U.S. veterans who served in those occupations, giving an accurate account of what is really happening day in and day out, on the ground, will be shown.
> The Raging Grannies and other local musicians will provide entertainment. Literature tables, opportunities to take action, and delicious food and drinks will be available. Free and open to the public. Donations gratefully accepted.


This guy is outrageous, he never held a comission, he was never ordered to go to Afghanistan and therefore, it is impossible that he refused to deploy. How much longer are the peace protesters going to continue to rally around this fraud? As well, is it really so difficult to distinguish between Afghanistan and Iraq? I mean seriously, someone should teach these people to read a map. There is no real connection between these 2 very seperate operations, yet Canadians are continually looked at as the Americans lap dogs. Furthermore, politicians who depreciate the contributions of the Canadian military throughout history need to wake up and actually read up on topics before they speak out on them.


> Canada has always been viewed internationally as a balanced, moderate mediator, which should be the role the country strives for, said Mohamed Boudjenane of the Canadian Arab Federation, who is the NDP member of the legislature for Etobicoke North.
> 
> "Canada's strengths are not in its military force,'' he said. "Let's not (kid) ourselves -- we're not a power.


Canada has always been viewed internationally as a balanced, moderate mediator? How about we ask the Axis forces from the Second World War about that one, I'm sure they would paint a very different picture of Canadians. On the topic of being a power, we may not be a global power but we still do have meaningful contributions to make. It's amazing how ignorant people can be.


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## Flip (15 Mar 2008)

My favorite example of Canadian "mediation" is the action at Kap Yong.
It's a good starting point to discussing Medak Pocket.
And the seperation of Peacekeeping myth from Peacekeeping fact.

My point - Giving the farm away to bad guys doesn't buy peace.....
ergo - It's poor mediation.


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## retiredgrunt45 (15 Mar 2008)

Looks like taliban jack is siding with his buddies again. 

Sorry jack, majority still rules, your collection of mis-informed niave protesters won't change that. :


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## manhole (15 Mar 2008)

just returned from a trip to Fredericton......we happened to drive by City Hall.   There were less than 20 people there demonstrating.    Guess there ere not enough people interested enough to protest along with the few who were there.


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## wannabe SF member (15 Mar 2008)

I got a good name for that event:

Operation Ending Freddom.  ;D


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Mar 2008)

Just came from the Guelph protest, jeepers, if I had known CTV was going to interview me I would have shaved before heading down. :-[
I wonder if I'll make the cut........

It was typical anti-American, more affordable housing, get our soldiers out of Iraq kife.
 The only speaker that was at all semi-informed was Tom King, the local federal NDP candidate. I had a chat with him afterward and at least he felt the same way I did at some stooge bastardizing the American National anthem. [his Brother is a severely wounded Vietnam Vet]

The University of Guelph professor [his name escapes me, I'll look it up tonight] was a typical, " Geneva Convention/pipeline/pre-planned invasion/bombing innocents" fool who, when I called him on using the Senlis Council as part of his speech by saying they support more troops, said " Well the don't know everything". :

Apparently he's a graduate and was an instructor at RMC years ago....

I'm glad I went.


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## catalyst (15 Mar 2008)

Darn, I missed the prostest march in Montreal - usually demonstrations go right by me on st catherine's street, gotta love working in a store with big windows.


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## childs56 (15 Mar 2008)

Why don't they protest during the Cold Winter months. As opposed to the when it is warmer.


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## OldSolduer (15 Mar 2008)

Typical of the anti war crowd. Winnipeg's will start in about 30 minutes....I'm at the Armories so I will watch them on TV, have a rant and be done with it.


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## JesseWZ (15 Mar 2008)

I am tempted to visit Winnipeg's. Its a shame we don't rate such a shining beacon for the cause as Francisco Juarez. 
 [Sarcasm off ] 
But seriously, this kind of thing gives me a headache when I try to rationalize it.


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## MarkOttawa (15 Mar 2008)

A post by Terry Glavin at this blog:

Forget the Silly "Anti-War" Parades. Put The Afghan People First.
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/03/forget-silly-anti-war-parades-put.html



> From Lauryn Oates, co-founder of the Canada Afghanistan Solidarity Committee,
> http://afghanistan-canada-solidarity.org/
> 
> in today's [March 14] Globe and Mail:
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## fraserdw (15 Mar 2008)

Relax, folks.  This is a great example of what we have and are serving for.  Let em go misinformed or no, let do their thing and bask yourself in their free speech.  You gave to em!


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## James (15 Mar 2008)

Looks like there's one in London tomorrow afternoon. I'd go, but I've gotten into arguments with people before and they all seem to regurgitate the same garbage. It's like none of them can think for themselves. Oh well...


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## MarkOttawa (15 Mar 2008)

From Jack Layton, March 14:

Conservatives and Liberals extend Afghanistan mission: NDP stands up for peace


> ...
> This mission is not working. We need to change direction. We need to take leadership in order to regain the respect Canada once had in peacemaking and peacekeeping.
> 
> The NDP’s plan for peace includes pursuing a political solution delivered by the UN. The UN’s mandate to preserve and promote international peace and security and its longstanding experience in peace negotiations make it the appropriate international body to be in charge in Afghanistan – not NATO.
> ...



How does Mr Layton think Canada can succeed in causing the UN to take direct charge? Why does no-one in our media ever ask him? The process would involve the UN Security Council--which has repeatedly authorized the ISAF mission, a fact Mr Layton does not mention--allowing ISAF's mandate to lapse and then voting to create a new UN "peacekeeping" mission of some undefined sort. That would require the agreement of the US, UK and France. Likelihood? Zero.

I guess Jack is simply ignorant about how these UN matters work--odd given the NDP's UN-centric approach. But all too typical.

Besides which NATO is only in charge of (most) international military activity in Afstan, plus some development work (PRTs).  The vast amount of aid, development, reconstruction, capacity-building, etc. work in under various government's own agencies, international agencies and NGOs.  And there is a very large UN mission (UNAMA) that is very active over a wide range of fields--including the political.
http://www.unama-afg.org/

And I suppose Jack thinks this UN development is of no significance:

New UN "super envoy" for Afstan
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-un-super-envoy-for-afstan.html

What a simplistic, mindless rhetoric-spouting, jerk Jack is.

Mark
Ottawa


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## slowmode (15 Mar 2008)

I'm sure the people in Afghanistan never use to have the right to protest until we came. We must finish the mission.


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## PMedMoe (15 Mar 2008)

Maybe the people in Ottawa should read today's Citizen.

Article Link

Afghan general praises Canada for Kandahar violence reduction
Claims city is now 'second most volatile place' in Afghanistan
Matthew Fisher, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Saturday, March 15, 2008

KABUL - Kandahar, where Canadian forces are responsible for security, is no longer the most hazardous place in Afghanistan, according to a senior Afghan general.

"It is now Helmand that is the most dangerous, not Kandahar," said Gen. Zahir Azimi in an interview over lunch this week in the Afghan capital.

"This is because Canadian troops have done a great job in their area. They have changed Kandahar from being the most volatile place to the second most volatile place."

More on link

Guess we're doing some good, huh?


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## UCModFloppy (15 Mar 2008)

The fact protests are allowed here shows democracy does work. And the fact there are protests on the subject shows the education system does not.


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## Reccesoldier (15 Mar 2008)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Relax, folks.  This is a great example of what we have and are serving for.  Let em go misinformed or no, let do their thing and bask yourself in their free speech.  You gave to em!



I think we all know what freedom of speech is and why we have it but I'm all for expressing another form of freedom of speech, the freedom to correct and the freedom ridicule people that open their cake-holes without having a single rational thought about the situation they intend to protest about.


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## Teeps74 (15 Mar 2008)

> Francisco Juarez (former Canadian Army Lieutenant who refused deployment to Afghanistan),



Ahh great, this complete fraud still kicking around? Last I looked into it, he was an OCdt when he was removed from the Forces, and being a reservist, he was never in any danger at all of going to Afghanistan unless he wanted to.

The man is a liar and a douche.


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## Celticgirl (15 Mar 2008)

I just saw a news clip about the Halifax protest. Apparently, they were protesting the "war in Afghanistan" and the "war in Iraq".  Shouldn't they protest the Iraq War on the _other _ side of the U.S.-Canada border? How dumb _are _ some of these people?

Shaking my head here.  ???


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## ballz (15 Mar 2008)

Mike Baker said:
			
		

> Hmm, when is this? I want to go in, an voice my opinion to them.
> 
> Fellow Newfs (and anyone else that can get there)! Gather 'round! We shall have our own protest to protest their protest! All you Veterans, Soldiers, Sailors, Air Force personall, an those of us joining or just want the Afghan people to have a better life, get ready. Let's show them that what we are doing really does make a difference. Let's show them the truth.
> 
> Anyone in?



Come pick me up in Corner Brook... I'll supply the Tim's for the trip haha.

In all seriousness, I wish I could drive right through them like that crazy old man did in the states, with a big "Anti-War is Pro-Taliban" sign on top of the car.


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## derael (15 Mar 2008)

Catalyst said:
			
		

> Darn, I missed the prostest march in Montreal - usually demonstrations go right by me on st catherine's street, gotta love working in a store with big windows.



A few military friends and myself walked passed one of these last year in Montreal. We didn't know beforehand that the demonstration would be taking place. It was quite the scene...couldn't help but laugh at some of the deeply misinformed youths with their banners of idiocy. Mostly anti-american garbage etc. etc.


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## zipperhead_cop (15 Mar 2008)

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Ahh great, this complete fraud still kicking around? Last I looked into it, he was an OCdt when he was removed from the Forces, and being a reservist, he was never in any danger at all of going to Afghanistan unless he wanted to.
> 
> The man is a liar and a douche.



I think you are being unfair to douches, which actually have some value and use.   

He has lied about most everything so far, why wouldn't he lie about holding a commission from our Queen and having rank he never earned.  He's a hippie.  Why would he let truth get in the way of a protest?


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## Celticgirl (15 Mar 2008)

Some (ignorant) quotes from the comments section of the CTV article (link below):

*Mr Chillz*
If the troops don't care that they are being used to steal oil & opium and are being soaked in DEPLETED URANIUM,....why should we care than?

I don't wanna hear one soldier complain when he/she gets back and is sick or gravely wounded.

*Lance*
There's too many uninformed, brain-washed Armchair Generals leaving stupid comments on this farse of a mission. 

It's all about oil and opium,..period. And theyre using the lives of our troops to steal it all. What a shame our country has become.

*R MacQueen*
I'm going to apply the logic of a totalitarian mind, (like Bush and Harper's) here...

Ahem... (Placing hand on warmongers' faces here, and simply pushing their stupid heads out of the way)

This is how it is, numbskulls... the war is ILLEGAL, savvy? No, you don't have to understand, because you're not smart enough to understand, just listen! Bush lied his way over there, disregarding the UN's wishes, and now we're propping up those lies, GET IT??? We do not call the shots in this universe. It's their country to run as they please... they are NO threat to us!

No, we get out... COMPLETELY!

No arguments from the pinheads... we get OUT!

End of story!

*MBB*
This mission is only to construct the trans-afghan pipeline (which passes near Kandahar) and get the opium export moving again (which it did).
And we're spending billions which we don't have.

"The UN approved the mission". Who cares? The UN is actually US-France-Russia-China and the UK. All imperialist countries. What's so good about this UN??



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080315/afghan_protest_080315/20080315?hub=TopStories


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## Yrys (15 Mar 2008)

Opium is a  new one !!!


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## OldSolduer (15 Mar 2008)

and 9/11 was a conspiracy by halliburton, JFK was a conspiracy....these guys NEVER give up do they?


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## Yrys (15 Mar 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> and 9/11 was a conspiracy by halliburton, JFK was a conspiracy....these guys NEVER give up do they?



Did you read comments made last year by this year Oscar winner actress, Marion Cottillard ?

Her theorie then was there  is a conpiracy for 9/11, and "they" (U.S.) made it happens because it cost less 
to explode the building with planes and dynamites then to renovate it !!!


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## OldSolduer (15 Mar 2008)

I didn't see those remarks, but I stopped paying attention to celebrity opinions when John Lennon (god of the left wing peaceniks) voiced his opinions. If you really get down to it, a lot of these celebrities are stupid


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## Maclimius (15 Mar 2008)

I find it amusing with the fact that most of these protests are going by and protesting in front of recruiting centres. It's not like we have any say over the decisions of elected MPs other than our individual rights to vote. Also, last I checked, most of our recruiting centres aren't even open on the weekend so they won't really be disrupting anything.


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## midget-boyd91 (15 Mar 2008)

Well here's a boot in the crotch for all those anti-military protesters.  Today's poll on CTV.ca
I know it's just a poll, but it's still better than seeing the opposite.

There are protests this weekend demanding an end to the military mission in Afghanistan. What do you think should happen next?
Stay the course	61%
End combat role in Kandahar	18%
Withdraw completely	21%

Midget


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## Shamrock (15 Mar 2008)

They haven't based their arguments on truth or fact yet, why would you expect them to now?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Mar 2008)

http://www.swo.ctv.ca/news.php?id=1115

Well, I made the cut.......for a few seconds.


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## Mike Baker (15 Mar 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://www.swo.ctv.ca/news.php?id=1115
> 
> Well, I made the cut.......for a few seconds.


Hmm, all I see is green...


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## aesop081 (15 Mar 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://www.swo.ctv.ca/news.php?id=1115
> 
> Well, I made the cut.......for a few seconds.





			
				Mike Baker said:
			
		

> Hmm, all I see is green...



All i saw was Bruce's unshaven face  ;D


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Mar 2008)

Don't forget the weeks worth of debauchery.....its there also. >


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## Richie (15 Mar 2008)

Let's face it, some people just need something to protest. This paragraph from today's Globe and Mail is actually quite funny:

"And what began as an anti-seal hunt protest in Calgary quickly transformed into a rally against Canada's troops being in Afghanistan.

Fifteen minutes before the anti-war rally was scheduled to begin, a line of protesters held placards calling for an end to the seal hunt. Moments later, they swapped their signs and spoke out against the war."   <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080315.wafprot0315/BNStory/National/home">Link</a>

Like I say, they just gotta protest _something_! 

A few thousand fools came out today and exercised their democratic right to protest against Canada helping the Afghan people; millions of other Canadians did not, we are the silent majority.


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## IntlBr (15 Mar 2008)

I mayyyyyy have heckled the Guelph protest from my Residence Room today......  :-[


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## armyvern (15 Mar 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://www.swo.ctv.ca/news.php?id=1115
> 
> Well, I made the cut.......for a few seconds.



That's you!!?? And here I thought that you always had a big yellow feathery front to you.  

You know what to bring next time we get together for beers ... and it isn't yellow and feathery!!  ;D


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## IN HOC SIGNO (16 Mar 2008)

A whole 60 people...woooooo....and Scott Taylor was there key note speaker if you can believe it!!
(Disclaimers and what not)

Marchers call for peace, not war
Halifax joins other communities protesting Iraq, Afghan conflicts
By CLARE MELLOR Staff Reporter
Sun. Mar 16 - 5:20 AM



Anti-war protesters march down Spring Garden Road in Halifax on Saturday. (Ingrid Bulmer / Staff)





Elizabeth Hudson believes that marching against war can change things. 

"Just seeing people on the street doing this, I like to think it gets people thinking about it more," said the 18-year-old student at the University of King’s College.

"We get so used to (war). It has been going on for so long."

Ms. Hudson was one of about 60 people who ignored snow and wind Saturday and took part in an anti-war demonstration in Halifax. Chanting and holding placards denouncing "endless war," the protesters started their peaceful march at Victoria Park, taking it through Spring Garden Road’s shopping district.

Students, senior citizens and families took part in the rally organized by the Students Coalition Against War. Several other groups, including Voice of Women and Halifax Peace Coalition, also took part.

The rally was primarily a protest against the Iraq war — the fifth anniversary of the American invasion is March 19 — but many also spoke out against Canada’s participation in the Afghanistan mission.

Thousands of people protested across the country Saturday, after Thursday’s vote in the House of Commons extended Canada’s presence in Afghanistan to at least 2011.

Rallies were organized in 20 communities nationwide in a joint call for an end to Canada’s combat role in Afghanistan.

In Toronto, federal NDP Leader Jack Layton said Canada is better suited to be engaging in a peacekeeping mission under the United Nations, rather than fighting under NATO.

Eighty Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002.

"Citizens don’t realize that their government is taking them to a war with no goal and which is by definition a war with no end," said Sarah Clift, an instructor at King’s, who brought her four-year-old daughter, Tovah, to the Halifax rally.

"As a mom of a small child, I worry about the future of this country where an endless war can be waged with no goal," she said. 

Rob Sangster, 19, an organizer with the Students Coalition Against War, said he worries about the welfare of his friends who have signed military contracts in order to get a university education.

"They will probably be in Afghanistan in a few years. I’m trying to talk a few of my friends out of this," he said.

Canada has spent $7.2 billion on the war on Afghanistan, with analysts predicting that the cost could eventually reach $22 billion, said Alex Khasnabish, a Dalhousie University anthropology and sociology professor, who spoke at the rally.

He produced figures comparing what governments spend on war to the amount dedicated to fighting poverty, homelessness and other social concerns. 

"Washington spends a total of approximately $7 billion a year combating global warming; that’s just over two weeks’ worth of war," he said. "Only 10 per cent of this massive capital investment (in war) is actually going to the uniformed personnel on the ground in these countries. The rest goes directly to private contractors."

Scott Taylor, a former Canadian soldier who has covered the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq, including a weekly column in The Chronicle Herald, applauded the group in Halifax for its effort in bringing attention to the Iraq war. 

"I don’t think I could have ever foreseen in my life addressing a peace rally," said the publisher of the magazine Esprit de Corps. "(American soldiers) are being killed to the point where it is no longer news anymore. It’s just a matter of when is it going to end."

Ms. Hudson agreed the war is an unjustified one.

"They still haven’t given proper reason as to why they are still there or why they went in the first place," she said. "I think they should pull out before any more people get hurt or killed on both sides.

"I am against (Canada’s participation in) Afghanistan too. I don’t think we are doing what we said we were going to do. I think we are causing more harm that good."

With The Canadian Press

( cmellor@herald.ca)


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## The Bread Guy (16 Mar 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://www.swo.ctv.ca/news.php?id=1115
> 
> Well, I made the cut.......for a few seconds.



Well quoted!


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## sgf (16 Mar 2008)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> A whole 60 people...woooooo....and Scott Taylor was there key note speaker if you can believe it!!
> (Disclaimers and what not)
> 
> Marchers call for peace, not war
> ...



60 isnt bad given that there was a snow storm during the day and it was also the end of March Break, lots of people still away.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (16 Mar 2008)

SGF I take it that you were talking tongue in cheek when you said that 60 wasn't bad? That probably included the press and babes in arms. I am a child of the 60's and grew up watching people turn out in the thousands for protest marches. This isn't even a slim minority, this is fringe element.  There are over 8000 students at St Mary's and somewhere near 20000 at Dal. We used to go just out of curiosity when I was at Universitiy. It isn't March break there they had their Reading Week in Feb.


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## sgf (16 Mar 2008)

no I was serious. When in Halifax were there protest marches in the thousands? It certainly was March Break in NS last week, lots of parents were away or just getting back.


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## Celticgirl (16 Mar 2008)

Considering the fact that the HRM has a population of about 400,000+, 60 people certainly is a very small turnout. I saw one protester on the news saying that "the majority of Canadians" were against the mission (who knows which one he was referring to...Iraqistan, I guess)...so where was this "majority"? 
March Break and a little snow can't explain away the other 399, 940+ people.


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## ballz (16 Mar 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Iraqistan



Hahaha that just made my day.

You can't win when it comes to stats and polls and all that stuff with the left-wing looney tunes. If it supports what they believe, its legit, if it doesn't, there's some conspiracy behind it as to how the media (yes apparently the media is on our side....) and government manipulated it, and so it's not legit. My roommate is a left-winger and when he asked for proof that the majority of Canadians support the mission, and I offered polls as a source of evidence, he declined the offer to look because they were "tampered with."


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## sgf (16 Mar 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Considering the fact that the HRM has a population of about 400,000+, 60 people certainly is a very small turnout. I saw one protester on the news saying that "the majority of Canadians" were against the mission (who knows which one he was referring to...Iraqistan, I guess)...so where was this "majority"?
> March Break and a little snow can't explain away the other 399, 940+ people.



Heres the majority  - at least according to Angus Reid



> Many adults in Canada believe their government should not extend its current mandate in Afghanistan, according to a poll by Angus Reid Strategies. 58 per cent of respondents disagree with allowing the mission to continue beyond February 2009.
> 
> In addition, 61 per cent think the current government has not effectively explained the mission in Afghanistan.



more



> Polling Data
> 
> Do you agree or disagree with this statement? - Canada should extend the mission in Afghanistan beyond February 2009
> 
> ...



and the link is

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/29855


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## Celticgirl (16 Mar 2008)

Angus Reed Poll (from SGF's link above)
Methodology: Online interviews with 1,018 Canadian adults, conducted from Jan. 31 to Feb. 1, 2007.

CTV Poll
There are protests this weekend demanding an end to the military mission in Afghanistan. What do you think should happen next?
  
Stay the course   6111 votes     (61 %) 

End combat role in Kandahar   1841 votes     (18 %) 

Withdraw completely   2077 votes     (21 %) 

  Total Votes: 10029 

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?&tf=ctv/generic/hubs/ctvNewsSub.html&cf=ctv/generic/hubs/ctvNews.cfg&id=81075&pollid=81075&save=_save&show_vote_always=no&poll=CTVNewsTopStories&hub=TopStories&subhub=VoteResult

Ten times as many people responded to the CTV poll and given the obscurity of Angus Reed Polls, I would venture a guess that the CTV poll provided a greater cross-section of respondents.


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## PMedMoe (16 Mar 2008)

Hey Bruce, great to see they (the media) at least were interested in getting the other side of the story.  I noticed in the article below the video in your link that they state 80 soldiers and a diplomat have been killed.  Wrong again, as usual.  : 

From the Halifax newspaper article:



> Elizabeth Hudson believes that marching against war can change things.
> 
> "Just seeing people on the street doing this, I like to think it gets people thinking about it more," said the *18-year-old* student at the University of King’s College.
> 
> "We get so used to (war). *It has been going on for so long.*"



And I bet Christmas seems a long way off to you as well, Ms. Hudson.


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## MarkOttawa (16 Mar 2008)

How to report an anti-war demo--compare these two news stories and let us know your reaction (usual copyright disclaimer):

1) _Ottawa Sun_:

Protesters won't take war vote lying down
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/OttawaAndRegion/2008/03/16/5018031-sun.html



> More than 500 demonstrators stormed Ottawa streets as part of a massive antiwar protest in the aftermath of a controversial House of Commons vote to extend Canada's military mission in Afghanistan by two years.
> 
> Part of a global day of action that saw demonstrations in nearly 600 cities worldwide, yesterday's march began at the National Gallery of Canada, where speakers from the Canadian Peace Alliance and the Canadian Labour Congress whipped the crowd into a frenzy amid rallying cries of "End it, don't extend it."
> 
> ...



Note at the link the photo that took up the whole front page.

2) _Ottawa Citizen_:

500 join Ottawa anti-war demonstration
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=734c135e-3100-49c3-a7bc-b1979610e246



> Last week's Parliamentary vote to extend Canada's mission in Afghanistan to 2011 didn't diminish the enthusiasm of anti-war protesters at an Ottawa demonstration planned to coincide with numerous events around the globe -- it only made them yell louder, organizers say.
> 
> About 500 peace activists rallied at the National Gallery, marched by Parliament Hill and held a "die-in" in front of the U.S. Embassy as a part of the World Against War day of action. Ottawa organizer Dylan Penner said the day was marked in 22 cities across Canada and 600 throughout the world to mark the fifth anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## Pte.Butt (16 Mar 2008)

CTD said:
			
		

> Why don't they protest during the Cold Winter months. As opposed to the when it is warmer.



Because, that would make sense, something these hippie's don't have the knack of just yet.


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## zipperhead_cop (17 Mar 2008)

Richie said:
			
		

> "And what began as an anti-seal hunt protest in Calgary quickly transformed into a rally against Canada's troops being in Afghanistan.
> Fifteen minutes before the anti-war rally was scheduled to begin, a line of protesters held placards calling for an end to the seal hunt. Moments later, they swapped their signs and spoke out against the war."



I am _SO_ going to go seal hunting when I get back from Afghanistan 

I don't have a huge issue with the hippie clowns protesting.  They will always be around and are a constant.  
What is aggravating is how the media pursues such insignificant displays.  That CTV reporter IMO had a bias against the CF in his tone and content.  Same as the one article that Milnews posted.  If most of Canada supports this effort (and they appear to), why does the MSM insist on trying to ride it down?  To whom do they think they are serving? And why for that matter?  Doubtless, sensational sells but I have to imagine that there is lots of sensational positive reporting available too.  Decisive battles.  Reconstruction efforts.  Countless human triumph stories from Afghan families made better.  And I know for a fact the stories are out there, what I don't understand is why they can't get air/print time.  Canada loves it's soldiers, and likes to hear stories about the good we are doing.  I would think there would be good money in promoting us.   ???


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## Jarnhamar (17 Mar 2008)

One of the most interesting points I see raised is that this is an illegal war in Afghanistan when it's been plainly pointed out, we are there at the behest of the UN. I actually wouldn't mind attending one of these rallies just to see if they are completely out to lunch or have a head on their shoulders.
If a CF soldier attends one of these protest in a purely observational role, would he face any sort of disciplinary action?
Mind you I don't support their protest at all. I think they are 100 misinformed and while they may have good intentions, if they TRUELY realised what abandoning the people of Afghanistan back to the Taliban meant they wouldn't be so keen on protesting.


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## zipperhead_cop (17 Mar 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> If a CF soldier attends one of these protest in a purely observational role, would he face any sort of disciplinary action?



I don't think that there would be any reasonable chance that any real dialogue would occur.  You've seen these clods time and time again in action.  They have a few trite phrases ("No Justice, No Peace"--like seriously.  WTF does that even mean?) and once you engage them logically, they go to the shit.  Said soldier would just get shouted down and berated.  Best case scenario, it's a waste of time.  Worst case scenario, the hippies would initiate a physical confrontation, and then turn on the cameras after the soldier defended himself.  
However, it would be an interesting exercise to invite a selected group to meet in a neutral location to engage in some point sharing.  Ask the leaders of these groups to show up, and then tape the meeting.  When they came up flat, you would have a laugh track that you could show for a long time (which would never make the MSM)


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## a_majoor (17 Mar 2008)

More on the leadership of these protest groups:

http://www.mikebrockonline.com/blog/2008/03/jack-layton-walks-with-the-far.html



> *Jack Layton walks with the far left*
> By
> Mike Brock
> on March 16, 2008 1:43 PM
> ...


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## brihard (17 Mar 2008)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I don't think that there would be any reasonable chance that any real dialogue would occur.  You've seen these clods time and time again in action.  They have a few trite phrases ("No Justice, No Peace"--like seriously.  WTF does that even mean?) and once you engage them logically, they go to the crap.  Said soldier would just get shouted down and berated.  Best case scenario, it's a waste of time.  Worst case scenario, the hippies would initiate a physical confrontation, and then turn on the cameras after the soldier defended himself.
> However, it would be an interesting exercise to invite a selected group to meet in a neutral location to engage in some point sharing.  Ask the leaders of these groups to show up, and then tape the meeting.  When they came up flat, you would have a laugh track that you could show for a long time (which would never make the MSM)



I always like to ask if they have any familiarity with UNSC resolution 1386 (authorizing ISAF) or any of the ones that followed up and extended it. It can be amusing watching mouths flap open and shut with no sound coming out when you start to quote actual resolutions and legislation.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Mar 2008)

I think attending one of those meetings would just reaffirm a members devotion to the military and the current mission.


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## zipperhead_cop (17 Mar 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I always like to ask if they have any familiarity with UNSC resolution 1386 (authorizing ISAF) or any of the ones that followed up and extended it.



Is that the one where they approved the construction of the Trans Afghan Pipeline?   :


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## BKells (17 Mar 2008)

I'll preface what I am about to say by admitting that I haven't read the last 7 pages of this thread. It was the title that drew my attention: "I guess democracy doesn't work...protests on Afghan mission."

The protests this past weekend are perfect evidence that our democracy works. I support the mission wholeheartedly, obviously considering I volunteered to deploy on it, but I would be very worried if no one was protesting it. Ordinary citizens must be active participants in political discourse if a democracy is to be effective. Civil debate, with contesting viewpoints, is necessary for a healthy democracy. No decision is ever going to please everyone, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for government in the first place; there will always be people upset with a decision that government makes. Freedom of the press, of expression, of association, and of peaceful assembly all guarantee our right to make public our displeasure with any decision taken by government. In my opinion, it is a noble civil duty to make oneself informed of the actions of government, analyze the actions, and decide whether to accept those actions or to register a complaint-- be it through writing one's MP, writing a letter to the editor, or taking to the streets to vocalize one's opinion.

The protests of the past weekend prove that  our democracy is quite healthy. Though one may disagree with the protestor's particular opinions, one shouldn't ridicule or minimize their complaints.  As long as citizens are engaged, be it through petitions or protests, our system is working. Be wary of the decision that isn't protested.


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## JesseWZ (17 Mar 2008)

Junius said:
			
		

> make oneself informed of the actions of government


I know I am "sound biting" your post, and for the most part I agree with you. However when we still have folks asking us "How Iraq is?" I start to get cynical.


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## Celticgirl (17 Mar 2008)

Junius said:
			
		

> In my opinion, it is a noble civil duty to make oneself informed of the actions of government, analyze the actions, and decide whether to accept those actions or to register a complaint-- be it through writing one's MP, writing a letter to the editor, or taking to the streets to vocalize one's opinion.



I agree with your points. However, from what I have seen and read about this latest batch of protests, the demonstrators appeared to be far from informed. They were protesting the war in Iraq, a war which Canada plays no role in whatsoever. Some have also been claiming that our soldiers are helping to steal oil and opium from Afghanistan, and saying that our presence there is unwanted. This sounds to me like conspiracy theories and fear mongering moreso than protesting. People can protest all they want. It's a democracy, so by all means, we all should have the right to do so. However, if you are going to protest, for heaven's sake, be INFORMED  about the issues. Don't spread rumours and conspiracies as a way to gain support for your cause. Debate the REAL issues.


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## George Wallace (17 Mar 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> .......... Some have also been claiming that our soldiers are helping to steal oil and opium from Afghanistan, and saying that our presence there is unwanted. This sounds to me like conspiracy theories and fear mongering moreso than protesting. People can protest all they want. It's a democracy, so by all means, we all should have the right to do so. However, if you are going to protest, for heaven's sake, be INFORMED  about the issues. Don't spread rumours and conspiracies as a way to gain support for your cause. Debate the REAL issues.



Well, in all honesty, if they are that 'thick' and don't do their research, then their ignorance will show to any who have done even the most minimal of research and their credibility drops well into the negative figures.  If that is what they want to portray, then let them.  Perhaps they are too thick as to not realize why people are going like this  : to them all the time.


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## NL_engineer (17 Mar 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I always like to ask if they have any familiarity with UNSC resolution 1386 (authorizing ISAF) or any of the ones that followed up and extended it. It can be amusing watching mouths flap open and shut with no sound coming out when you start to quote actual resolutions and legislation.



But then you get the "its a government conspiracy" response; followed about why we should leave Iraq (when answered, they revert back to first point)  : 

or thats what happened last time I tried, maybe you have been talking to the informed crowd  :


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## Boxkicker (17 Mar 2008)

MCG said:
			
		

> Why has nobody very publicly reminded the NDP that the NATO mission is authorized under a UN Security Counsel resolution which calls on member nations to contribute troops to ISAF?



  They have but hey lets not confuse the issue with fact, every speach the PM has made lately states this, as did John Manley.


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## a_majoor (18 Mar 2008)

What would happen if you try to debate facts with the protesters:


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Mar 2008)

OK, I've pruned this back to the original topic, for those of you whom have had your posts deleted I wasn't going to spend half the night trying to move posts around to the various ongoing threads on those very same conversations........find the subject and post there yourself if you are so inclined.
Bruce


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