# Non Officer Material



## zander1976 (6 Jan 2012)

Hello Everybody, 

I don't really consider myself to be officer material or at least I am not a type A personality. I don't tend to make quick decisive decisions. I don't want to lead but I can and I have step up in emergencies. I am more of a strategic planner, I enjoy researching and collecting information and making recommendations to someone else.  I have a a lot of  experience being a lead developer and I enjoy teaching new developers but I don't like commanding people. With that said I would really like to join as an electro/mechanical engineer or civil engineer.  Are there places for someone like me to fit in?

Thanks,


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## aesop081 (6 Jan 2012)

If you do not enjoy leading, do not join as an officer. Leading is an officer's first job.

Even as an NCM, you will have to show leadership. War is not for the timid.

That being said, there is room for someone with your background. Choose carefully and think about it hard.


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## SentryMAn (6 Jan 2012)

As an entry level officer you will lead, but also follow other more senior ranks.

I think that from what you posted you will find a world of difference in the military with regards to Leading others.  I hate trying to command people in civilian business, but while in the military it was much less complex.


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## vonGarvin (6 Jan 2012)

zander1976 said:
			
		

> I am more of a strategic planner, I enjoy researching and collecting information and making recommendations to someone else...Are there places for someone like me to fit in?


Yes there are plenty of places for you.  You won't find any in the Canadian Forces as an officer.


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## zander1976 (6 Jan 2012)

Hey, 

First thanks for your response. When I say I don't want to command I mean I don't want to command solders in battle. I don't think I am aggressive enough for that task but maybe that's because I haven't been trained to do it. I would follow and in an emergency I would step up but my focus would be to get people out alive. Quick snappy decisions aren't my thing but I start to shine when things become really complicated. That being said I am a medical first responder and fire fighter so sometimes I need to think quick and lead under pressure. 

Thanks


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## GAP (6 Jan 2012)

zander1976 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> First thanks for your response. When I say I don't want to command I mean I don't want to command solders in battle. I don't think I am aggressive enough for that task but maybe that's because I haven't been trained to do it. I would follow and in an emergency I would step up but my focus would be to get people out alive. Quick snappy decisions aren't my thing but I start to shine when things become really complicated. That being said I am a medical first responder and fire fighter so sometimes I need to think quick and lead under pressure.
> 
> Thanks



Then don't apply


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## aesop081 (6 Jan 2012)

zander1976 said:
			
		

> I don't want to command solders in battle.



Well, maybe you need to re-evaluate why you are thinking of being an officer in the CF.

Even "non-combat" officer trades can't escape the realities of modern war. Anyone can find themselves in contact with the enemy and and officer must lead regardless.


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## Jammer (6 Jan 2012)

Forget about anything in the military...stay doing what you're doing...


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## jeffb (6 Jan 2012)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> I think that from what you posted you will find a world of difference in the military with regards to Leading others.  I hate trying to command people in civilian business, but while in the military it was much less complex.



So it is your theory that it less complex to lead people into situations whereby they may be injured or killed then it is to lead them to meet a sales target?  : 

Looking at your profile, I think I can confidently say you are out of your lane here. Being a leader on phase training is easy. All of your followers are in fact your peers and if they don't jump at your every command, the hand of god (the DS) reaches down and strikes them. Also, no one on your phase training has any idea what is going on. It's not like the real world where almost all of your decision have to pass the experienced NCO test.


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## aesop081 (6 Jan 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> It's not like the real world where almost all of your decision have to pass the experienced NCO test.



....or the "contact with the enemy" test.


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## PPCLI Guy (6 Jan 2012)

zander1976 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> First thanks for your response. When I say I don't want to command I mean I don't want to command solders in battle. I don't think I am aggressive enough for that task but maybe that's because I haven't been trained to do it. I would follow and in an emergency I would step up but my focus would be to get people out alive. Quick snappy decisions aren't my thing but I start to shine when things become really complicated. That being said I am a medical first responder and fire fighter so sometimes I need to think quick and lead under pressure.
> 
> Thanks



I'm confused.  In May, you stated that you had spent 15 years in the IT world, with no reference to being a firefighter and a first responder.  



			
				zander1976 said:
			
		

> I signed up for comms research, atis or lcis. I have about 15 years experience as a software developer, system admin and firewall admin so I have some experience in the area.



You also stated that you were applying for Comm Research, and expressly ruled out being an officer.:

In May:



			
				zander1976 said:
			
		

> I also applied for an IT type position not front lines or officer positions.



and in November:



			
				zander1976 said:
			
		

> I am in the process of applying for a position in Comms Research or CIST depending.




What has changed so dramatically?


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## jeffb (6 Jan 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> ....or the "contact with the enemy" test.



Touche.


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## zander1976 (6 Jan 2012)

Hey PPCLI, 

Sorry for the confusion. I am an IT person, volunteer fire fighter and mfr. I was also at one point was a national life and surf guard and I hope to take hazmat training in the not so distant future. Leading solders hasn't changed (hence the title) and I would love comms research and/or engineering. Comms Research is still my number one choice but space is limited and I will be working on an engineering degree anyway so I was curious about it.  

The reason for ruling out officer was that I don't feel like I am the right person to lead solders in an offensive strike. Some people are fearless leader that charge into battles and some people would server their country better by designing planes or vests, training people, doing search and rescue, being a doctors, etc. My goals in life are to protect lives and serve people so if I can break encryption or build better vests then great. 

<joke>
Pharmacists, counselled, doctors and dentists are officers and I keep envisioning my local pharmacists (I won't pick on dentists) charging into battle scream "They will never take my freedom". 
</joke>

Thanks again for all the feedback,


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## zander1976 (6 Jan 2012)

I should point out that my uncle designed tanks and my grandfather fought in WWII but was forced to return to England to be an engineer. IMHO they both served their country.


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## Pusser (7 Jan 2012)

I think I understand what you're getting at.  Yes, there is a place for you skills within the Defence Team, but I'm not so sure it's in a uniform.  There are scientists and researchers in Defence Research (public servants) and of course there are also defence industries that do much of the research and development we require.  However, anyone who puts on a uniform can be called upon to lead at every rank level.  If all the officers and NCOs are killed, somebody still has to take charge - even in leading the retreat.

I'll give you my example.  I am a Naval Logistics Officer.  My chief responsibilities in the ship are ensuring that everyone is fed and paid, that the ship's bills are paid and that we have the spare parts we need.  However, when the shooting starts, I don't hunker down in my cabin and continue to review travel claims.  I'm in charge of the Manning Pool where I'm responsible for dispatching personnel into life-threatening situations.  In fact, since we now essentially use the Manning Pool as an additional Section Base in HMC Ships, I'm also coordinating firefighting and flood control in various parts of the ship.  In short, I have to make quick decisions under pressure where loss of life or even loss of the ship (300 lives) are risks. Oh and by the way, if I happen to be in my cabin asleep when the missile hits, I have to get out of bed, get fully dressed (including flash gear) get down to the Main Cafeteria (half a ship away) and immediately start coordinating everything within six minutes.  If there is a nuclear, biological or chemical threat, I'm in charge of contamination control, which also involves sending personnel in harm's way in order for the ship to survive.  Logistics may be mostly about accounting and warehousing, but in the military, it is not a job for the faint of heart or indecisive.  I'm sure the same is true for all types of engineers.

As for leadership in civilian vs military circles, I agree that there is a difference in that military leadership is easier (in my opinion) simply because the Code of Service Discipline legally requires folks to follow orders.  I work in a civilian environment at the moment and I sometimes find it frustrating because no one seems to want to make a decision for fear of hurting somebody's feelings.


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## Rogo (7 Jan 2012)

A staff member of mine on a course once told us of a firefight that was sporadically ongoing over several days where he (in Combat Arms) was fighting alongside a navy cook.  Now you may never intend to be in combat but I'm sure the navy cook in the story never did either and was quite surprised. 

As Pusser mentioned above (and so did you), there are several avenues to follow in order to serve Canada's interests in its military, defence, or foreign policies but it is not unique to the military.  Maybe a government job would be more suited to your desires or a CIC position where you can help shape today's youth positively.   The local shop owner to the bureaucrat to the infanteer, we all do our part.


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## zander1976 (7 Jan 2012)

Thanks for having the patients to work with me while I figured out what I was trying to say. It helped and answered all of my questions. Over the last 15 years I have been debating joining but I had to work out a lot of character flaws first (quit smoking, drinking, etc). After signing up last year I have spent the time training (weights, running and cardio) and took a management position were I would be exposed to a lot of public speaking. Over the year my confidence has grown and at this point I am on the fence, I have the knowledge and experience to run large IT centers but I am still not quite confident enough to join as an officer. More training is required.  

Thanks


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