# Blow money on parties for past wars, or invest in military capability and support to vets?



## The Bread Guy (18 Oct 2013)

This from the VAC Info-machine ....


> The Honourable Julian Fantino, Minister of Veterans Affairs, today joined counterparts from 22 countries at an international ministerial seminar on the centennial of the First World War in Paris, France. The meeting, hosted by Minister Kader Arif, Minister for Veterans at the Ministry of Defence in France, provided an important opportunity to build ties with international counterparts on a key, historic joint initiative, to coordinate national and international programs on the centennial and to develop a common approach to international ceremonies that will take place beginning in 2014. The ministers also discussed plans for the 70th anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy, on June 6, 2014.
> 
> (....)
> 
> ...


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## McG (11 Feb 2014)

Veterans are urging that costs be kept down on the coming celebrations of the two world wars, noting that the money could better be spent supporting veterans.  I wonder if any money could also be found here to sustain the military’s readiness for future threats.


> * Veterans urge Stephen Harper government to avoid ‘Cadillac’ version of war commemorations*
> Lee Berthiaume, Postmedia News
> Ottawa Citizen
> 10 February 2014
> ...


 http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Veterans+urge+Stephen+Harper+government+avoid+Cadillac/9491559/story.html


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## pbi (11 Feb 2014)

As far as I can tell, the CAF itself isn't setting very much aside for these commemorations. Don't have any idea about Heritage Canada.

Hopefully we will not be throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. Both those wars had massive impacts on Canada in many ways, not the least being the creation of "The Veteran" as a part of our society. On these pages we regularly bemoan the fact that Canadians are lost in a fuzzy blue world of false peacekeeping "memories", at the expense of rememberng our warfighting heritage.

I'm not supporting wasteful spending, but I'm not in favour of blind penny-pinching, either. Besides, I'm not really convinced that it's an "either/or" problem for our government anyway.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Feb 2014)

What is bugging me is the lump grouping of all of us into the 'headline' word of "Veterans".


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## pbi (11 Feb 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> What is bugging me is the lump grouping of all of us into the 'headline' word of "Veterans".



Yes, exactly...


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## Jarnhamar (11 Feb 2014)

I'd like to see a Canadian replica of the Vimy Ridge monument.


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## George Wallace (11 Feb 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'd like to see a Canadian replica of the Vimy Ridge monument.



The CWM has some of the original designs and sculpture models.

See also the memorial proposed for the Cabot Trail:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/113469/post-1280235.html#msg1280235


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## ArmyRick (11 Feb 2014)

I mostly agree with the article. Look after veterans and their needs first. Then we can do the ceremonies, memorials and other historically important stuff. We do have to prioritize. I am looking at Canadian federal funds on the whole not just DND or vets affairs or any other one department.

Trust me, there are too many out there who will not let veterans of any war, conflict or mission be forgotten.


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## OldSolduer (11 Feb 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, the CAF itself isn't setting very much aside for these commemorations. Don't have any idea about Heritage Canada.
> 
> Hopefully we will not be throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. Both those wars had massive impacts on Canada in many ways, not the least being the creation of "The Veteran" as a part of our society. On these pages we regularly bemoan the fact that Canadians are lost in a fuzzy blue world of false peacekeeping "memories", at the expense of rememberng our warfighting heritage.
> 
> I'm not supporting wasteful spending, but I'm not in favour of blind penny-pinching, either. Besides, I'm not really convinced that it's an "either/or" problem for our government anyway.


I agree. 

What I would not like to see is a few veterans stuffed on a plane and sent to France while several Members of Parliament go on the taxpayers dime......


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## Danjanou (11 Feb 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> What I would not like to see is a few veterans stuffed on a plane and sent to France while several Members of Parliament VAC high ranking paper pushers, RCL brass, and assorted others all up for a shopping spree in Paris,  go on the taxpayers dime......



FTFY


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## OldSolduer (11 Feb 2014)

Thanks very much.


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## Journeyman (12 Feb 2014)

> What I would not like to see is a few veterans stuffed on a plane and sent to France while several Members of Parliament, VAC high ranking paper pushers, RCL brass, and assorted others all up for a shopping spree in Paris,  go on the taxpayers dime......


Maybe we should spend nothing, but let the Euro/Pacific equivalent fly over here to say "thank you." 

I'm sure there'd be no shortage of people seeking a photo-op to go up to a mic to say "you're welcome."


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## Halifax Tar (12 Feb 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Maybe we should spend nothing, but let the Euro/Pacific equivalent fly over here to say "thank you."
> 
> I'm sure there'd be no shortage of people seeking a photo-op to go up to a mic to say "you're welcome."



:goodpost:

Milpoints, Incoming!


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## Danjanou (12 Feb 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Maybe we should spend nothing, but let the Euro/Pacific equivalent fly over here to say "thank you."
> 
> I'm sure there'd be no shortage of people seeking a photo-op to go up to a mic to say "you're welcome."



Works for me, the Flin Flon Legion is lovely in June I hear. 8)


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## The Bread Guy (19 Feb 2014)

From the _Globe & Mail_:


> The Department of National Defence fears public denunciation over government spending on the centennial of the First World War and the 75th anniversary of the Second World War, with senior officials harbouring concerns that Ottawa will be pilloried for wasting money that should go to veterans instead.
> 
> “There is the risk of criticism for spending on commemoration instead of investing more in services and benefits for veterans,” an internal Defence communications plan for Canada’s commemoration of the two 20th-century conflicts says. The draft strategy also warns that media may “raise concerns about the cost of the commemoration activities during a time of fiscal restraint.”
> 
> ...


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## ModlrMike (19 Feb 2014)

> Records obtained under access to information by researcher



Perhaps "Records obtained under access to information by professional ATI request factory" is more accurate.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Mar 2014)

Bumped with more detail....


> Talk about battle fatigue. The Canadian government plans to commemorate more than 50 military milestones between now and 2020 — prompting fresh concern about the financial burden they may place on the Canadian Forces.
> 
> Details of the coming celebrations are contained in documents tabled in the House of Commons this week.
> 
> ...



Here's a link to the document with the full list.  Don't worry, though ....


> *Upcoming commemoration events for the First and Second World Wars won’t hurt the budget of the Canadian Forces or the military’s ability to do its job, says Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino.
> 
> “We’re confident that it’s not a trade-off,” *Fantino told reporters and veterans Monday as he announced some ways the federal government plans to mark the 100th anniversary of the the start of the First World War and the 75th anniversary of the start of the Second World War.
> 
> ...


Postmedia News, 13 Jan 14


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## McG (27 Mar 2014)

The cost will be > $30 million, but there is no trade-off?
Does that mean the money just would not exist if it were not being invested in military heritage endeavours?


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## ArmyRick (1 Apr 2014)

"The art of misdirection" If you have not seen Monsters U, watch it and you will get the line. Thats the line that comes to mind with the governments big whoop dee being thrown for things like war of 1812, the world wars, etc, etc.

I am not sure it is wise and may draw some ire from the masses. If every newspaper and critic is screaming this is not a good idea when modern day vets are struggling, you need to heed the warnings. Just my thoughts.


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## Furniture (3 Apr 2014)

Maybe I've misjudged the general consensus here, but what I gather is people are angry that the government is celebrating significant battles that involved Canadian troops? Ones so significant that we as a nation built massive war memorials on foreign soil to commemorate?

I get that we are all angry about the lack of support for Veterans, and serving members but lets be clear here. If the money wasn't being spent on celebrating and honouring our past it would be wasted on yet another idiotic theatre project or some other cultural affair that really only appeals to the select few. At lest the government is highlighting the events that helped lead Canada to be the nation it is today. 

Why don't we try dropping some of the cynicism and anger over the things that aren't bad, and focus on the things that matter. Things like the Navy not having boats, the army not having money to train properly, and the air force not having a replacement for the Buffalo yet... A few grand on some parades to honour our forefathers isn't a bad thing, it's not the best thing but it's not bad.


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## Edward Campbell (3 Apr 2014)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> Maybe I've misjudged the general consensus here, but what I gather is people are angry that the government is celebrating significant battles that involved Canadian troops? Ones so significant that we as a nation built massive war memorials on foreign soil to commemorate?
> 
> I get that we are all angry about the lack of support for Veterans, and serving members but lets be clear here. If the money wasn't being spent on celebrating and honouring our past it would be wasted on yet another idiotic theatre project or some other cultural affair that really only appeals to the select few. At lest the government is highlighting the events that helped lead Canada to be the nation it is today.
> 
> Why don't we try dropping some of the cynicism and anger over the things that aren't bad, and focus on the things that matter. Things like the Navy not having boats, the army not having money to train properly, and the air force not having a replacement for the Buffalo yet... A few grand on some parades to honour our forefathers isn't a bad thing, it's not the best thing but it's not bad.




 :goodpost:

Milpoints inbound.

You are exactly right. We all have Members of Parliament, we can all find their E-mail addresses here, we can all tell them that:

     1. We welcome _tasteful_* commemorations of past wars and battles; but

     2. We want _action_ to meet the country's (not just the CF's) legitimate national defence needs: ships and sailors, trucks, helicopters, guns and soldiers, aircraft and the men and women to fly and support them.

____
* _Tasteful_, in my opinion, doesn't involve cheap, plastic pins and gee gaws.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Apr 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> .... We all have Members of Parliament, we can all find their E-mail addresses here, we can all tell them that:
> 
> 1. We welcome _tasteful_* commemorations of past wars and battles; but
> 
> 2. We want _action_ to meet the country's (not just the CF's) legitimate national defence needs: ships and sailors, trucks, helicopters, guns and soldiers, aircraft and the men and women to fly and support them.


Now that the celebration matrix appears to be laid out and announced, and the highest political bosses decided, can one _really_ expect more of a response than:
- the boilerplate "we're supporting the troops, this is good for them and Canada;"
- with maybe a hint of, if your MP is Conservative, "if only those NDP and Liberals would vote for supporting the troops by voting for those omnibus bills that have troop stuff in them as well as all sorts of things _they_ don't want but _we_ do")?

Maybe here's another stat to throw in any such e-mail:  If the cost is still expected to be $30M, saving 1/3 to 1/2 of that may not buy new hardware, but could pay for, to pick only one standard of measurement ....


			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> 300K will buy a week in the field for 1 CMBG.


.... between 33 and 50 weeks in the field for a brigade, or fewer weeks for more brigades - or whatever the equivalent of air or sea training, or combinations thereof.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> * _Tasteful_, in my opinion, doesn't involve cheap, plastic pins and gee gaws.


*+1000* (even if it's too late for the 1812 pins - although you never know what can happen with enough political balls will).


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## McG (3 Apr 2014)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> If the money wasn't being spent on celebrating and honouring our past it would be wasted on ...


I am sorry, this false dichotomy is the biggest BS defence of a stupid waste.  The money absolutely could be spent on something productive and useful.  If government keeps costs low and manages to educate Canadians in the process, then by all means let's invest.  But, low costs may not be what are in the works.  Tax payers should demand that our money is all well spent.



			
				WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> ... A few grand on some parades to honour our forefathers isn't a bad thing, it's not the best thing but it's not bad.


A few grand?  The 1812 thing has been estimated at $30 million and the coming spectacles are predicted to be more.  I have heard forecasts of half-million (public funds) for some military organizations' grand anniversaries in the works.


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## PPCLI Guy (3 Apr 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> A few grand?  The 1812 thing has been estimated at $30 million and the coming spectacles are predicted to be more.  I have heard forecasts of half-million (public funds) for some military organizations' grand anniversaries in the works.



Ahem.  We're in the room....


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## Old EO Tech (3 Apr 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Ahem.  We're in the room....



I'd be interested in a source for the statement that Regiments are getting vast amounts of public funds.  I'm relatively close to the planning for the Edmonton part of the PPCLI 100th, and I've yet to see public funds used for much of anything.  Public DND/CAF infrastructure yes, but that is hardly unexpected.


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## Infantryman2b (3 Apr 2014)

I think a fundraising campaign in both Canada and countries we helped liberated would help with some of the funds.  The top priority of spending should be on the present day problems that have been associated with our forces. Nonetheless honouring our past is very important, and shouldn't be something taken lightly. This shouldn't even have to be a debate as the budgets should be separate.


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## McG (3 Apr 2014)

Infantryman2b said:
			
		

> This shouldn't even have to be a debate as the budgets should be separate.


It is all the Canadian Tax payer's money.  If the government is allocating it to heritage celebrations, then it is not going to training, maintenance, roads, bridges, or vetren support.  The government does not have access to unlimited funds, so something somewhere is going without this money.

As for anything being spent by DND - it is all O&M.


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## McG (28 Aug 2014)

With the price climbing above $ 150 million across three departments, veterans groups are again questioning the amount being invested to historical military commemorations.


> *Ottawa spends too much remembering old wars, veterans group says
> Money would be better spent helping current veterans with PTSD and other problems*
> Sophia Harris
> CBC News
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/veterans-groups-say-ottawa-spending-too-much-remembering-old-wars-1.2747317


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## Humphrey Bogart (28 Aug 2014)

I think we need to stop looking at this as a waste of money and look at it as an opportunity to market our organization.  We always say that support for the Canadian Forces is a mile wide but only an inch deep, perhaps this should be seen as an opportunity to change that.  My :2c:


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## OldSolduer (28 Aug 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> I think we need to stop looking at this as a waste of money and look at it as an opportunity to market our organization.  We always say that support for the Canadian Forces is a mile wide but only an inch deep, perhaps this should be seen as an opportunity to change that.  My :2c:



Great minds think alike....or fools seldom differ....

I was thinking the same thing last night on the way home about how poorly the CAF in general "markets" itself to Canadians.

The Patricias are now on a Memorial Baton Relay running from Edmonton to Ottawa. The local media has been pretty good on covering it. I digress.

Back to our topic.


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## Kirkhill (29 Aug 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> I think we need to stop looking at this as a waste of money and look at it as an opportunity to market our organization.  We always say that support for the Canadian Forces is a mile wide but only an inch deep, perhaps this should be seen as an opportunity to change that.  My :2c:



Agreed - Here's a thought.

For the 100th Vimy Anniversary - April 12th 2017 - organize a grand parade of the entire CF in Toronto and have them march into the SkyDome.  54,000 in the seats and the remainder on the field.

Then ask Canadians if that is enough.


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Aug 2014)

DND is turning back billions in unspent money. This is not really a DND thing but a "Ottawa" as in Cabinet thing. They set the priorities. I would say "Celebrating our history is good, but ignoring the plight of the vets at the same time is not". Mind you most nations have a pretty bad track record in looking after vets post any war, much worse for the losing side!

I would like to see a celebration of the aboriginal war vets and acknowledgement of the wrongs done to them upon returning to Canada.


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## Transporter (29 Aug 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Agreed - Here's a thought.
> 
> For the 100th Vimy Anniversary - April 12th 2017 - organize a grand parade of the entire CF in Toronto and have them march into the SkyDome.  54,000 in the seats and the remainder on the field.
> 
> Then ask Canadians if that is enough.



The MND would have to approve the TD expenditures as this would likely qualify as a conference  ;D


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## Humphrey Bogart (29 Aug 2014)

Transporter said:
			
		

> The MND would have to approve the TD expenditures as this would likely qualify as a conference  ;D



Imagine the event request and subsequent briefing note that would need to be generated!  A staff officer's worst nightmare hahahaha


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## McG (30 Aug 2014)

I think the questions raised in the article are fair.  Is the investment proportional to what we are getting from it?  Is the opportunity cost worth it?  DND's investment in anniversary commemorations is equivalent to 92 weeks of a CMBG training in the field ... It's enough to have negated the 50% cut to Reg F army field units' O&M for a year or two or more.

But, I agree that we could get value from copying France's Bastille Day parade, or repeating what we did for the Afghan mission day of honour.  Unfortunately, that has not been where I have seen money spent from public pots intended to commemorate centennial, 90th and 75th anniversaries.  

I have seen touring and parading in Europe, which does not do much for us back here at home.  I have seen giant parades with soldiers from multiple cities & provinces, some of which were set against equally giant backdrops of dynamic displays and interactive, static displays, held inside our bases with turn-out consisting of serving & retired military and families. I have also seen small freedoms of the city parades, conducted in public spaces but during working hours without much public turn out.  

If this $150 million investment (500 x CMBG field weeks) in commemoration is an opportunity to connect Canadians with the military, then it is an opportunity that we may missing.


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## Furniture (30 Aug 2014)

I've already said that I think celebrating our past is a very important thing to do, and in the grand scheme of things even $150 million isn't an over the top amount of money to do it. The key thing is we need to do it in front of the public as often and as accessibly as possible. Maybe that means a few Saturdays and Sundays spent marching up and down the square... But It also means we have maximum exposure to the people that matter. Those people being kids, and the young parents of kids who can identify with the 20-35 year old soldier/sailor/airman who served in both WW1 WW2 and beyond.

To be honest there will never be enough time, money, or effort put into supporting veterans in need of help. That doesn't mean that we should ignore our past though, times are tough but we have a responsibility to respect and publicly honour those that went before us just as we wish future generations to respect and honour what our generation did.

In my opinion (I won't say humble because it isn't) we need to put a lot more focus on being seen by the average Canadian, even if it means a short term loss to our training budgets. The people who determine how much we get to train with don't see us nearly enough to know what we need and why we need it, and that is why the average Canadian doesn't give a flying **** about making sure our budget is maintained at a reasonable level.


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## Haggis (30 Aug 2014)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> In my opinion (I won't say humble because it isn't) we need to put a lot more focus on being seen by the average Canadian, even if it means a short term loss to our training budgets. The people who determine how much we get to train with don't see us nearly enough to know what we need and why we need it, and that is why the average Canadian doesn't give a flying **** about making sure our budget is maintained at a reasonable level.



Yes, Reg F budgets are being slashed but Res F budgets are being slashed even deeper.  This is unfortunate because the Reserves are the face of the CAF in most of small town Canada and major urban centres not located near a base.  In fact, a study done a few years back showed that whenever a Canadian citizen sees a CAF member, there is an 80% likelihood that member is a Reservist (and they include CIC/COATS in that as they also wear the uniform).  That old "footprint in the community" thing....

In addition, there are strict controls on when Reservists can wear their uniforms and, in some cases, the authority for soldiers, even local unit COs and RSMs, to attend non-military public events in uniform (such as by invitation to civilian commemorative events for 1812 or WWI) to "show the flag" rests with the brigade commander.


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## tomahawk6 (31 Aug 2014)

Partner with the private sector to pay for the commemoration of past wars.


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## Brasidas (31 Aug 2014)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Partner with the private sector to pay for the commemoration of past wars.



The Scotiabank Vimy Ridge celebration... err commemoration, anyone?


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## Rifleman62 (31 Aug 2014)

Colin P 


> I would like to see a celebration of the aboriginal war vets and acknowledgement of the _wrongs done to them upon returning to Canada._



Agree.


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2014)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Colin P
> 
> 
> > I would like to see a celebration of the aboriginal war vets and acknowledgement of the _wrongs done to them upon returning to Canada._
> ...



I am curious, just where do we stop acknowledging and compensating all the wrongs of the distant past for all who have been wronged?  There is such a long line of them.


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## Rifleman62 (31 Aug 2014)

Yes, always will be. It is the PC thing to do. 

Do you think that if ISIS or whomever brought the war and all their evil to e.g. the USA, and the government, post Obama, decided to detain Muslims, that Canada would do the same? Second World War/racially profiled Japanese.

P.S. Canada's number one war criminal,Pacific Theater, was the "Kamloops Kid", born and raised in Kamloops BC,


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## Heraske (1 Sep 2014)

> lost five per cent of his brain.



Another 95 per cent and he's eligible to become a politician.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Sep 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Agree.
> 
> 
> I am curious, just where do we stop acknowledging and compensating all the wrongs of the distant past for all who have been wronged?  There is such a long line of them.



These were vets that served honourable in the forces and then treated like 2nd class citizens upon their return, I think that is a real wrong worth righting and applies to a small group and helps towards other things in the grand scheme.


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