# Pilot Timeline



## AirCanuck (21 Jan 2009)

I'm a student in 4th Year Commercial Aviation Management in the University of Western Ontario, ROTP (completed BOTP).  As graduation approaches and I get ready to enter the 'real world' of the Air Force, I was wondering if anyone could let me know what to expect over the coming years in terms of time.  Specifically, I get 2Lt upon graduation but I am looking for how long (all generally, of course) it takes to get Lt, Capt.; how long of a waiting time until BFT after graduation (I skip PFT because I fly at school and graduate commercial multi-ifr) How long generally until I get on the next course after (ie on the Bell, hawk, or king air) and after that to actually gain my wings?  Basically I'm wondering how long in general I can expect to wait before I have my wings after graduation, and what the general timeline is for promotions (I understand that you can only provide very general answers as some people move through more quickly than others). 

Future's coming up quick, and I'd like to have some idea of what it holds... and so would certain others around me.  I'm hoping for Griffons at this point, but it's still up in the air (no puns intended).

Thank you for your time!
cheers
AirCanuck


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## Zoomie (22 Jan 2009)

You get your wings when you graduate Phase 3.

As for timing - only your POC in Winnipeg will have those details.  You can probably expect up to 18 months wait for BFT followed by 3-9 months wait for AFT-ME/RW.

Promotion to Lt/Capt is based upon your commissioning date - when you should have been promoted if all training had been experienced without any CF induced delays.  You may very well never see the Lieutenant rank.

Expect to be on Wing's grad parade about three years after graduating University.  Any earlier is a bonus.


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## AirCanuck (22 Jan 2009)

that was helpful, but I'd like a few clarifications;

I was looking more for estimations on HOW LONG as opposed to after what courses - I know wings come after phase 3, etc.  As for rank being based on time of commission, based how specifically?  ie How long?  I am getting my commission in April or May.  the 3 year mark is a useful one though.


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## dimsum (22 Jan 2009)

AirCanuck said:
			
		

> As for rank being based on time of commission, based how specifically?  ie How long?  I am getting my commission in April or May.  the 3 year mark is a useful one though.



You get your Capt rank 3 years after your commissioning date.  If you get your wings after that time, you bypass the rank of Lt and go straight to Capt.


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## AirCanuck (22 Jan 2009)

makes sense!  thank you.


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## ark (23 Jan 2009)

There are changes coming to the pilot training, check this article:

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2008/06/13/air-force-short-250-pilots-but-getting-a-handle-on-retention.aspx

You can also check the Fall issue of Air Force CrewBrief for additional info on the various initiatives that are being taken. How this will translate into timeline changes for training? I guess only time will tell.


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## FiorGoBasPLT (27 Jan 2009)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> You get your wings when you graduate Phase 3.
> 
> As for timing - only your POC in Winnipeg will have those details.  You can probably expect up to 18 months wait for BFT followed by 3-9 months wait for AFT-ME/RW.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this informative post Zoomie.  Could you clarify the timeline for me?
Im a army reserve-CFR heading to BOTP in march(2 months). I assume that after I will do 7 months of SLT and 1 year of OJT.  After that time I'm to head to PFT (timeline: 21-ish months).  After PFT there is an 18 month wait?  does a candidate return to their OJT at this point?

Thank you very much for your time.


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## maniac779 (27 Jan 2009)

FiorGoBasPLT said:
			
		

> does a candidate return to their OJT at this point?



Yes.

PFT is a TD attach/posting. The course isn't very long and guys will go back to the unit they came from after the course.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Jan 2009)

FiorGoBasPLT said:
			
		

> Thanks for this informative post Zoomie.  Could you clarify the timeline for me?
> Im a army reserve-CFR heading to BOTP in march(2 months). I assume that after I will do 7 months of SLT and 1 year of OJT.  After that time I'm to head to PFT (timeline: 21-ish months).  After PFT there is an 18 month wait?  does a candidate return to their OJT at this point?
> 
> Thank you very much for your time.



Here's what it was for me (minus PFT, since I did it between 2 years at RMC)

Grad from RMC - May 06
OJT - May 06-Apr 07
Phase IIA - Apr 07-Oct 07
Phase IIB - Nov 07-Feb 08
Phase III - Feb 08-Jul 08 (Wings)
OJT - Aug 08-Sep 08
Phase IV - Sep 08-Now

I think the wait for Phase IIA is much longer that it used to be and is only going to be longer with the aircraft situation in Moose Jaw right now.  Plus, the course is longer for the same reason (a friend of mine started in May 08 and is now about 1/2 way through)


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## ScottS (29 Jan 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Here's what it was for me (minus PFT, since I did it between 2 years at RMC)
> 
> Grad from RMC - May 06
> OJT - May 06-Apr 07
> ...


What is the "aircraft situation in MJ right now"?


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## SupersonicMax (29 Jan 2009)

Maintenance issues on the Harvard II.  Very little aircraft available for training, compared to the normal serviceability rates.  They are way way way behind and are zero-loading courses (or has been anyways)


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## ScottS (29 Jan 2009)

Interesting. Do you know if they were still loading larger courses, and could it be associated with that? Or is it just a case of bad timing?


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## SupersonicMax (30 Jan 2009)

We were pretty much the last course to be small (we were initially 7 on our course).  After that, all courses were 12-20 SPs.   I think the fact that they are behind is a combination of things, like bad weather, aircraft serviceability issues, course loading, etc.  Lots of effort has been done since Fall 2007 to increase the production, however, lots of bones have been thrown into the plans to do so, like it has been for years I imagine...  I have yet to see a whole BFT course graduate on time!!


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## aesop081 (30 Jan 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I have yet to see a whole BFT course graduate on time!!



Thats not limited to BFT unfortunately. CFANS is the same as well as most OTUs.


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## ScottS (30 Jan 2009)

As far as I can tell, they're putting in a fair effort to try to pump people through now, which is good, it's too bad they're running into so much trouble with it.  Hopefully they'll get everything running somewhat smoothly soon.


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## Astrodog (30 Jan 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Maintenance issues on the Harvard II.  Very little aircraft available for training, compared to the normal serviceability rates.  They are way way way behind and are zero-loading courses (or has been anyways)



I don't think they've been zero loading, 0901 02 03 are all going on time. They will be doing the entire ground school non stop and then just wait for their turn with the planes. The word is they are going to send all the way up to 05 and then possibly start zero loading, but that's just the rumour mill. Apparently one of the 08 courses has been on the flight line for 5 months without getting any flying in.


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## dimsum (30 Jan 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats not limited to BFT unfortunately. CFANS is the same as well as most OTUs.



CFANS is definitely suffering from weather and a/c issues.  What is supposed to be a 10-month course (BANC) is at a minimum 13 months since at least '07, with some serials going well into the 16-month period and double (even triple) grads not uncommon.


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## AirCanuck (30 Jan 2009)

Weather's shyte this year, plain and simple.  I fly in the snow-belt in south-western ontario, I have 3 bookings a week (now 4, to catch up) and I didn't fly for all of November or December.  I tallied it up yesterday to get my medical renewed, and while in the last year I flew something like 78 hours, I have flown 3.4 in the last 3 months.


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## Astrodog (2 Feb 2009)

Sounds like the house of cards has finally begun to tumble, BFT 0903 is zero loaded. Can't wait to see what the extra wait time will turn out to be.


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## AirCanuck (2 Feb 2009)

forgive my ignorance, but what the heck is zero loaded


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## George Wallace (2 Feb 2009)

AirCanuck said:
			
		

> forgive my ignorance, but what the heck is zero loaded



Zero (people) Loaded.   No One is Loaded.  The Course will not take place.  No resources will be tasked.  No Person Years will be utilized.


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## Welshy (2 Feb 2009)

I just got the email saying that is zero loaded. I was supposed to be on that course also, but alas it looks like we will be on 0905 or 0906.


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## maniac779 (3 Feb 2009)

Believe me Dudes...

You'd much rather be at your respective OJT locations sitting on your hands than here (Moose Jaw) REALLY sitting on your hands...


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## Welshy (3 Feb 2009)

I take it your speaking from experience.  ;D


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## Astrodog (3 Feb 2009)

maniac779 said:
			
		

> Believe me Dudes...
> 
> You'd much rather be at your respective OJT locations sitting on your hands than here (Moose Jaw) REALLY sitting on your hands...


Well, truth be told, given the option I'd much rather have a reasonable wait for MJ... But I guess that's not really much of an option anymore. Beggars can't be choosers I suppose.


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## maniac779 (3 Feb 2009)

Welshy said:
			
		

> I take it your speaking from experience.  ;D



I've finished IIA, but I am watching course mates and other guys in the flight progress at a snail's pace.


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## AirCanuck (3 Feb 2009)

And so, the pileup begins... I'm assuming this will ripple through all following courses?


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## maniac779 (3 Feb 2009)

As has been said, courses in Moose Jaw don't finish on time.

Changes have been made even in just the last year to try and increase production in Moose Jaw (more weekend flying, new syllabus, sim skipping, etc.), but the school has also been plagued with a number of aircraft maintenance issues this past year too numerous to discuss here, with the latest one rumoured to be reducing the number of Harvards on the line to 25% of the school's normal daily number (which I can barely remember what that number looked like) next week.

Take the particularly cold December/January and the ice filled November, and we've lost our fair share of ex's to weather as well.

If it's true that the incoming student tap has shut off, it's probably about time. Guy's are languishing here waiting to get on the line, not to mention the first half of the 08 series of courses still struggling to finish.

My next guess is Portage may well end up begging Moose Jaw for students as they will have their own slots to fill on PhIII courses.


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## Corey Darling (3 Feb 2009)

> If it's true that the incoming student tap has shut off, it's probably about time



What do you mean by this exactly? They are not taking any more new pilots, or not many are applying ?


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## maniac779 (3 Feb 2009)

Corey Darling said:
			
		

> What do you mean by this exactly? They are not taking any more new pilots, or not many are applying ?



Rumour has it they have stopped loading guys waiting for Phase IIA on the Harvard. ("Zero Loaded" a couple of courses) That just translates into guys who are currently waiting for the course waiting longer.


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## Bograt (4 Feb 2009)

I am curious to know the status of the PFT extended course. Anyone have gen on this programme?

For those waiting to go to the Big 2, it could be worse, you could be in Moose Jaw (and in Bandit) in February.  

I know many of you are chomping at the bit. Don't worry, MJ will come- then you wonder where all your spare time went. Take this time to finish your OPMEs, do the dive course, organize some adventure training for your unit. Stay busy, and time will fly.

Cheers,


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## Zoomie (4 Feb 2009)

PFT(E) FT is complete - they are running their first FOC course as I type.  On average we get two students per PH3 course from E flight.  The latest course has approx six students on it now.


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## KingKikapu (5 Feb 2009)

I spoke with a recruiter today and he showed me the DEO numbers for pilot and acso: both were zero.  He said things might open up with the beginning of the fiscal year again, but from what many of you have said, things are so backed up that there may be no point in admitting numbers of any consequence.  Is my assessment reasonable to you people?


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## Astrodog (5 Feb 2009)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> Is my assessment reasonable to you people?


What do you mean 'you people'??


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## maniac779 (5 Feb 2009)

The job of the dudes at the recruiting center is to procure pilot candidates understanding the fact that we will need them 2-3 years down the road from the time they sign on the dotted line.

Pilot is a pretty popular and heavily applied to trade. It's not uncommon for there to be no slots left this time of year.

My guess is there will probably be more pilot slots open in the new FY. We are still below the PML. We may get closer to closing that gap due to lack of attrition this year as people probably aren't going to be as keen to jump ship into to the civilian market as it stands now, but that fact alone is not going to solve the problem completely.

Don't worry, the fact that we can't get pilots out the door in Moose Jaw probably won't affect how many we take in at the recruiting center.

That's just my guess...


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## KingKikapu (5 Feb 2009)

Astrodog said:
			
		

> What do you mean 'you people'??


By 'you people', I mean you, the people of this message board, whom many of which probably have legitimate insight into the system.


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## Corey Darling (5 Feb 2009)

> What do you mean 'you people'??



 ;D i was going to do they same thing when i read that lol


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## AirCanuck (6 Feb 2009)

hahaha yeah I considered it too  ;D


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## KingKikapu (6 Feb 2009)

Wow, just got that.  Never saw the movie, but it's pretty obvious isn't it?


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## Arctic007 (12 Apr 2009)

Bograt said:
			
		

> I am curious to know the status of the PFT extended course. Anyone have gen on this programme?



We just got a guy up in Yellowknife that finished the Ext Course.  Hopefully he can provide some real feedback on it.


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## infamous_p (24 Oct 2009)

maniac779 said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> PFT is a TD attach/posting. The course isn't very long and guys will go back to the unit they came from after the course.



With PFT as a TD posting away from your home unit, is _BFT_ an actual posting, to include a full move at public expense? (IRP, etc.)


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## benny88 (27 Oct 2009)

infamous_p said:
			
		

> With PFT as a TD posting away from your home unit, is _BFT_ an actual posting, to include a full move at public expense? (IRP, etc.)



Yes. I know all sorts of guys who have gotten full moves, HHT's, the works, for their posting out to BFT. I'd like to hear about how that PFT extended course is going too, although I can't fathom why anyone would pass up the Havard II or the "Officer Development" at MJ.


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## Zoomie (29 Oct 2009)

Phase 2 (Grob) has ramped up to full strength and is graduating students directly on to Phase 3 Helo or Multi.  On average these students wait the weekend for their next course - vice up to 9 months for those coming out of Moose Jaw.

It is still undergoing substantial growing pains - as is CWATC in its airspace management.  Overtime this program should prove to be an excellent flight training facility that is even today rivaling the sortie rate seen at Moose Jaw.


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## jdl902 (20 Feb 2014)

I’ve been trying to figure out the initial progression through the pilot occupation; at least until the end of Phase 3 where things start to diverge.  I’ve pulled bits and pieces together from the recruiters and forums but in some cases information was quite old or conflicting.  What I’ve tried to put together below, is a basic outline of rank/pay/promotion criteria.  Be forewarned I haven’t been commissioned yet so confirm any information that is really important to you and if the people who know better spot any errors please let me know:

Rank 1: During BMOQ , paid at rank of 2 Lt. with deduction of $566/$681 for rations (married/single).  Have to pay for your own towels :  $3,839/mo. for first year, $4,163/mo. for second year, $4,489 in third year and so on.  OJT #1, Phase 1 (PFT) as TD, OJT #2 then Phase 2 (BFT) and Phase III postings.  OJT periods may be occupied with other courses and details vary based on backlog.  PFT as TD (temporary duty) means accommodations and meals are taken care of.  Relocation of household expected for Phases 2 and 3 as they exceed 6 months.

Rank 2: Promotion to Lt. upon graduation from Phase 3 (i.e. get your wings).  Now paid $4,220/mo. for first year, $4,553/mo. for second year and so on.

Rank 3: Promotion to Captain on 4th anniversary of commissioning, i.e. 3 years of service, if you have your wings.  If you have not been winged by your third year, due to delays in the training system, once you receive wings you will automatically be promoted to Captain and paid retroactively.
A caveat, your pay cannot decrease with promotion so if you’re in the third increment of 2 Lt. you would start in the second increment of Lt. upon promotion.  

Cost of living adjustment will see pay rates increase by 2% in July 2014.
Hopefully this helps others, did I miss anything?


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## bradley247 (20 Feb 2014)

jdl902 said:
			
		

> Rank 2: Promotion to 2 Lt. upon BMOQ graduation.  Paid $3,839/mo. for first year, $4,163/mo. for second year and $4,489 in third year and so on.  OJT #1, Phase 1 (PFT) as TD, OJT #2 then Phase 2 (BFT) and Phase III postings.  OJT periods may be occupied with other courses and details vary based on backlog.  PFT as TD (temporary duty) means accommodations and meals are taken care of.  Relocation of household expected for Phases 2 and 3 as they exceed 6 months.



It all depends on your entry plan. CEOTP does their own thing, but for everyone else OJT is usually a posting. Phase 1 is TD from OJT (and you return to OJT after course), Phase 2 and Phase 3 jet is a posting, Phase 3 multi and helo is TD. 

Also of note, 2Lts are only entitled to two pay increases while on the BTL. If you end up taking 5+ years to be trained (like I did), your pay will not be increased beyond that.



			
				jdl902 said:
			
		

> Rank 3: Promotion to Lt. upon graduation from Phase 3 (i.e. get your wings).  Now paid $4,220/mo. for first year, $4,553/mo. for second year and so on.
> 
> Rank 4: Promotion to Captain on 4th anniversary of commissioning, i.e. 3 years of service, if you have your wings.  If you have not been winged by your third year, due to delays in the training system, once you receive wings you will automatically be promoted to Captain and paid retroactively.
> A caveat, your pay cannot decrease with promotion so if you’re in the third increment of 2 Lt. you would start in the second increment of Lt. upon promotion.



Latest I've heard is promotion to Lt will start happening after phase 2. I don't believe they've started doing it yet though.

Captain backpay no longer exists, you only get Lt backpay now which is much less. This only affects people who waited a long time for training, which is less of an issue these days.


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