# Tac Flying, Kiowa Style.



## Loachman (21 Aug 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> It's all good training. I remember when I was in Pet they used to buzz over Muskrat Lake to check out the cottages in the Kiowas....contour flying.


It wasn't the cottages.

And contour flying was for Slugs (Twin Hueys). We did NOE.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (22 Aug 2007)

Loachman said:
			
		

> It wasn't the cottages.
> 
> And contour flying was for Slugs (Twin Hueys). We did NOE.



I was being polite about the cottages...hehehehe
Remind me what NOE is....when I was Padre for 427 I got up with the Twin Hueys and the Kiowas....it was lots of fun.


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## krustyrl (22 Aug 2007)

Nap of The Earth flying


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## Loachman (22 Aug 2007)

When were you 427 Squadron's Padre? I was there from 82-86.

I never saw any interesting non-cottages along Muskrat Lake, to tell the truth - it was just a good stretch to fly along when going to/coming back from points further in that direction.

The Ottawa River loop around the Beachburg area and north shore of the Ottawa west of Deep River wer far better hunting grounds, and there were random non-cottages spotted elsewhere as well.

Then there was the legendary Barroness...

Yes, Nape of the Earth. Our tactical limits were skids clear of ground. The slugs limits were fifteen feet above obstacles. I could fly under something that high.


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## Rick Ruter (22 Aug 2007)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Yes, Nape of the Earth. Our tactical limits were skids clear of ground. The slugs limits were fifteen feet above obstacles. I could fly under something that high.



Loachman, I cringe   :rules: when I read stuff like I could fly under something that high. Usually pictures start coming out and I'm afraid I'll be on one or two. 8)


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## Loachman (23 Aug 2007)

At my tactical limits, my main rotor would have been lower than a Twin Huey's skids at its tactical limits. It's as simple as that: nothing more than an illustration of the differences between those limits.

On the CH136 course, all pilots and observers were trained in underwire drills.

In 444 Squadron, we routinely flew under wires and bridges, in accordance with all applicable flying orders.

Did I ever/would I have flown under something actually 15 feet AGL? Not bloody likely, in peacetime at least.

Don't get so worked up over nothing.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (23 Aug 2007)

Loachman said:
			
		

> When were you 427 Squadron's Padre? I was there from 82-86.
> 
> I never saw any interesting non-cottages along Muskrat Lake, to tell the truth - it was just a good stretch to fly along when going to/coming back from points further in that direction.
> 
> ...



90-92..I was also with RCD which was my major unit but I tried to get down there as much as I could...did a winter ex with them in 92 which was lots of fun, crazy Yves Grenier was my neighbour in Q's and I got a few flights with him...he'd just got back from 444 so he had a cellar full of wine...of course I had to help him drink it from time to time (sacramental duty  ;D)


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## TCBF (24 Aug 2007)

Nothing we hated more in a Lynx than a Kiowa we were working with hovering over top of our Lynx - barely.  Blew pine needles into the Heineken and sucked the latest copy of "The Stars And Stripes" out of Carl's hatch!

It got so bad, some CC's started taking up positions under hydro wires so the Kiowa's would stay a bit further away.

Well...  We all know how THAT turned out, don't we?


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## GK .Dundas (24 Aug 2007)

Yup! You could alway tell where the lead recce vehicle was all one had to do was to look for the Kiowa.  The Lynx would directly beneath it the pilots used to stick to them like glue. I always wondered if they were lonely or something?
An old friend of mine used to have a super 8 film of a lynx crew throwing what looked like rocks ) at a Kiowa. Do'nt know but I suspect it was a staged gag.


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## Loachman (24 Aug 2007)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Yup! You could alway tell where the lead recce vehicle was all one had to do was to look for the Kiowa.  The Lynx would directly beneath it the pilots used to stick to them like glue. I always wondered if they were lonely or something?



Well, that wasn't supposed to happen, and any Kiowa anywhere near a Lynx never had me in it.

We were supposed to be in a position of observation off on a flank somewhere. We weren't supposed to ever be out in front of the lead recce c/s doctrinally, but I frequently ignored that if terrain permitted.


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## George Wallace (24 Aug 2007)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Well, that wasn't supposed to happen, and any Kiowa anywhere near a Lynx never had me in it.
> 
> We were supposed to be in a position of observation off on a flank somewhere. We weren't supposed to ever be out in front of the lead recce c/s doctrinally, but I frequently ignored that if terrain permitted.



I agree with Loachman.   I never had any Kiowa flying near me.  On the other hand, when I saw one (Enemy Force) he would be my first Tgt, as he was the eyes and ears for the Cobras.  Without him they were flying blind.


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## 3rd Herd (24 Aug 2007)

I have a rather good photo I took which provides some evidence to this debate. Being infantry at the time I am a neutral in this Helli verses Lynx. I can be persuaded to either post it in the near future or put it back in my archivies.  ;D


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## Good2Golf (24 Aug 2007)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> I have a rather good photo I took which provides some evidence to this debate. Being infantry at the time I am a neutral in this Helli verses Lynx. I can be persuaded to either post it in the near future or put it back in my archivies.  ;D



Even better would be a tail number and date and we could rifle through Loachman's logbook to see if he was all talk about avoiding Lynxes.  >

G2G


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## 3rd Herd (24 Aug 2007)

The date no problem, have to dig out my old maps and can also provide a grid. Tail number I cannot enlarge the photo large enough to read.( I would most likely be accused of photo enhancement anyway) The geography department also tries desperately to keep me away from the stereoscopes and sterometers. To many TAs have shudders when they realize the "Burt the Turtle" drills were for real.  ;D


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## Loachman (24 Aug 2007)

I would have landed nearby a few times for an RV, but never when one was in contact or close to it.

And I now recall going to have a look at one buried in a manure pile in a farmyard one afternoon because I couldn't believe that anybody would voluntarily hide there - I don't think that smell prevents detection. It wasn't in contact either.


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## geo (24 Aug 2007)

heh... Manure pile probably fell down on top of track after it paused nearby (propwash from kiowa?).... 
no one in his right mind would do that under non-whooting war conditions


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## Rick Ruter (24 Aug 2007)

Loachman said:
			
		

> At my tactical limits, my main rotor would have been lower than a Twin Huey's skids at its tactical limits. It's as simple as that: nothing more than an illustration of the differences between those limits.
> 
> On the CH136 course, all pilots and observers were trained in underwire drills.
> 
> ...



Just pulling your leg man. I was in Haiti and Bosnia. Flew under (and also into once) wires a few times.


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## Loachman (25 Aug 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> heh... Manure pile probably fell down on top of track after it paused nearby (propwash from kiowa?)....
> no one in his right mind would do that under non-whooting war conditions



It was too big and wide to fall over, and surrounded on three sides by concrete. It wasn't going anywhere without a major earthquake or flood. Maybe they were relying on the clouds of flies to hide them. My observer recognized them and didn't seem surprised that it was that particular crew in there.

Rotorwash - only one helicopter (Cheyenne) comes to mind with a propeller.


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## Loachman (25 Aug 2007)

Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> Just pulling your leg man.



Well please pull the other one, then, as the additional length onthis side is making things awkward.



			
				Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> Flew under (and also into once) wires a few times.



Another two things in common.


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## Strike (25 Aug 2007)

And you brag about that?  ;D (The through wire event I mean.)


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## Good2Golf (25 Aug 2007)

op:


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## Loachman (25 Aug 2007)

Strike said:
			
		

> And you brag about that?  ;D (The through wire event I mean.)



Which one of us? I wasn't, and I don't think that Rick was either.

It's a useful experience, but one to avoid getting at all costs (although there was some humour in the aftermath of mine).

I am constantly surprised at the lack of wire awareness in 1 Wing today - a natural development, given that we so seldom operate at tactical altitudes in inhabited civilian territory - but more effort should be made.

Admitting one's mistakes willingly, openly, and publically is one of the fundamentals of our flight safety programme and I'll talk about mine whenever I feel that it'll save somebody else from a repeat.

I'm damned glad that that windmill generator was only a simulation though...


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## Strike (25 Aug 2007)

> (although there was some humour in the aftermath of mine)



If there wasn't then you would be considered waaayyyy too serious -- which I know you aren't.   Just passionate, which can be easily confused.   

As for that windmill, it was always those two dimentional trees that suddenly appeared out of nowhere that got me.


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## Loachman (25 Aug 2007)

Strike said:
			
		

> As for that windmill, it was always those two dimentional trees that suddenly appeared out of nowhere that got me.



Try flying with Lyle next time.


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## George Wallace (25 Aug 2007)

Now, wasn't that little pond outside the ammo compound in Lahr one of Triple 4's favourite NOE test grounds?


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## TCBF (25 Aug 2007)

We were going through an area that happened to be a 'commune' of some sort and they had piled pig manure on some of the track junctions of their little fiefdom.  We didn't ientify it as such until we pulled into our next OP after having bumped one while driving around it.  Very effective route denial tactic.  Every time we drove through water - or every time it rained - that Lynx stunk to high heaven.

We avoide manure piles around farm buildings for the obvious reasons.  Also, a lot of German farms had underground concrete manure storage tanks and so we were extremely cautious around rectangular pads of concrete that seemed to serve to purpose.


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## Loachman (25 Aug 2007)

My section got tasked one day, with way too little notice to do any real liaison or planning, to act as pathfinders for a few US UH60s lifting a Canadian course, possibly CLC, from somewhere out on the plateau on the far side of the Black Forest to an area just south of Lahr. We zipped out to the PZ and had a quick chat with the UH60 guys and troops then had to head off straight-line non-tac, with one of the DS in my back seat, in order to beat the UH60s back (much faster than us) and FIND an LZ before we could direct them into it (nobody had planned ANY of this, just, apparently, phoned a UH60 unit and asked for a ride somewhere and then called us). We found a field, but didn't have time to inspect it closely before radioing a grid no more than about 30 seconds before the UH60s arrived. The farmer's freshly-cut wheat or whatever it was that was laying on the ground pretty much all disappeared. We only had a few minutes to find another field before they returned with the second lift. Every single field that we checked had either a cut crop like the first or one still standing. We were getting pretty desperate, as the UH60s were getting close, when we finally found one with nothing but stubble in a corner between a railway line and a bundestrasse overpass. GREAT - out went the grid, again, thirty seconds later the UH60s landed, the troops bailed out and flopped to the ground, and the lift hels departed. We flew in and landed to drop the DS off, and as soon as he opened the door the stench hit us - fresh coat of manure.


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## Loachman (25 Aug 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now, wasn't that little pond outside the ammo compound in Lahr one of Triple 4's favourite NOE test grounds?



We had two tac low fly areas on the west side of the A5, but I can't remember the boundaries and I don't recall such a pond (did it start with "M"?) actually within them. There were a few spots further out, but the entertainment always came from the embarassed reactions, and none of the locals ever had one as opposed to those around Pet. Boring. I never bothered in Germany.


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## Rick Ruter (27 Aug 2007)

Strike said:
			
		

> And you brag about that?  ;D (The through wire event I mean.)



I was 300AGL flying down a valley and the wire stretched from the top (200' above me) on one side to the bottom on the other and was probably hooked to a radio or TV in a Hut. The same gage as a coat hanger and I saw about 6 inches sticking out from the nose cowling. The FE looked under the belly and couldn't see anything so I landed a couple miles ahead and the FE pulled about 90' dragging from the nose under the belly and along the tail.

Wires aren't allways the big high tension stuff between pylons. Especially in some third world country.


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## TCBF (27 Aug 2007)

My experience is solely as self-loading cargo.

 ;D

However, in the back of a German BO-105, us (and a Kiowa or two) were rather unceremoniously chased out of the Canadian Canter Area back into the Lahr Valley by a bit of a storm.  We had to use the Kinzigtal and a few other valleys to get there because everytime we got about 100 feet AGL, the snow painted the bubble white and we had to go lower.

Had we not been belted in, we would have looked like a load of Feldgrau and OG-107 clothing in a glass fronted washing machine on spin cycle.  We got bounced all over in there.  Sick?  Nope.  I just wanted to get out and walk home.


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## JVJA (27 Aug 2007)

I have fond memories of 444's annual family day.  As a young teen we were treated to a ride in the Kiowa (sans doors) over Geroldseck and around the Lahr area.


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## Loachman (2 Sep 2007)

Skip__ said:
			
		

> I have fond memories of 444's annual family day.  As a young teen we were treated to a ride in the Kiowa (sans doors) over Geroldseck and around the Lahr area.


When were you there?


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## Emenince Grise (2 Sep 2007)

Back in the 1980's, when the RCR and RCD received/exercised the Freedom of the City in Frederticton, the open house at the Beaverbrook Arena was quite incredible. One of the many highlights (aside from the Leopards of the RCD "knocking on the gates" and breaking a few windows) was a Kiowa flying display done entirely between the uprights of the Beaverbrook football field goal posts... and not much higher than the top of the uprights, either.


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## JVJA (2 Sep 2007)

Loachman said:
			
		

> When were you there?



My father was with 444 Sqn 89 - 92.  Not a pilot though, he was the Rad Op Sgt at the time.


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## Loachman (5 Sep 2007)

Skip__ said:
			
		

> My father was with 444 Sqn 89 - 92.  Not a pilot though, he was the Rad Op Sgt at the time.


I left in 89, so we just missed each other.


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