# Franklin Expedition



## tomahawk6 (9 Sep 2014)

One step closer to solving an historical mystery.Good job

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/lost-franklin-expedition-ship-found-in-the-arctic-1.2760311

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says one of Canada's greatest mysteries now has been solved, with the discovery of one of the lost ships from Sir John Franklin's doomed Arctic expedition.

"This is truly a historic moment for Canada," Harper said.


----------



## ModlrMike (9 Sep 2014)

Pretty cool.

Stay away from the comments section unless you want to lose neurons.


----------



## chrisf (9 Sep 2014)

Does everyone realize just how incredible this is???

The mystery of the Franklin expedition at the time was pretty much the same as if today, we sent a mission to mars, and it disappeared without a trace after landing on the planet...

This is an incredible discovery.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Sep 2014)

The comment section is a bash Harper fest regardless of the story.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Sep 2014)

Pip, pip!  ;D


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Sep 2014)

I had heard of the davit and wooden plug, but wasn't aware of finding a intact ship.  Amazing job, no wonder the PM was there for the unveiling.  

Sadly, the young guys here at work have never heard of Franklin or his expedition.  What are they teaching kids in school nowadays.   :not-again:


----------



## chrisf (9 Sep 2014)

I visited the Beechy island graves a few years ago, it was a desolate far away place then, despite the large ship with modern communications anchored off-shore and the zodiac on the beach... I can just imagine how it was 150 years ago...


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Sep 2014)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I had heard of the davit and wooden plug, but wasn't aware of finding a intact ship.  Amazing job, no wonder the PM was there for the unveiling.
> 
> Sadly, the young guys here at work have never heard of Franklin or his expedition.  What are they teaching kids in school nowadays.   :not-again:



Do a quick survey and ask them to tell you, honestly, how many of them thought of THIS Franklin when you mentioned the name: :nod:


----------



## GAP (9 Sep 2014)

I am surprised in how far in they got before they got in trouble.....pretty good for the ships of the day.....


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Sep 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Do a quick survey and ask them to tell you, honestly, how many of them thought of THIS Franklin when you mentioned the name: :nod:



My turn now.  Who TF is that?


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Sep 2014)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> My turn now.  Who TF is that?



Sigh... you clearly don't have little kids  :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_(TV_series)


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (10 Sep 2014)

This much I know. NEVER let em watch Caillou!


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (10 Sep 2014)

fantastic and historically significant day not only for Canada but for Great Britain as well as it ends a period of uncertainty as to what happened to the Franklin expedition. Unfortunately I read the comments on the CBC site so now have to slam my head into a wall for 30 minutes


----------



## GAP (10 Sep 2014)

commenters are like elevator music.....they are rentable.....

You can rent smart ones, middling ones, dumb ones, really dumb ones......by the dozen.

That's why we see the same strain peaking through from CBC to the Star then on to the NP....etc. 

 :2c:


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Sep 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Sigh... you clearly don't have little kids  :
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_(TV_series)


No, those days are way behind me.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Sep 2014)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> No, those days are way behind me.



Yup.  My son was 'splainin why the Electric Zoo in NYC got shut down on Day three...no Franklin/Caillou/Clifford the Big Red Dog/Dora the Explorer/Thomas the Engine/etc... for me anymore.  Really.


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Sep 2014)

Electric zoo??  Man, I am so out of touch...


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Sep 2014)

You guys call yourselves Canadians … and no one mentioned Theodore Tugboat !!! 

All joking aside, It's Kudos , BZ and Well Done all a around for Parks Canada, RCGS, HMCS KINSTON and (I believe) CCGS AMUNDSEN, and the Government of Nunavut.
Even with today's tech and modern ships, this is still finding a needle in a haystack under difficult conditions at best. And where so many failed before.


----------



## tomahawk6 (10 Sep 2014)

What I find interesting is that native oral history pin pointed the wreck.


----------



## Kilo_302 (10 Sep 2014)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> What I find interesting is that native oral history pin pointed the wreck.



Here's a nice skewering of the whole thing: http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/michael-stewart/2014/09/harpers-franklin-discovery-or-did-anyone-ask-inuit


----------



## SeaKingTacco (10 Sep 2014)

In what sense is that "nice"?

Is your hatred actually so strong that you cannot see the historical significance of this?

I actually would not care if a (hypothetical) PM Trudeau or PM Mulcair were onstage yesterday- I still would have found this to be a neat story.  But, maybe I am just a simpleton....


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (10 Sep 2014)

Could have been sarcasm.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Sep 2014)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Here's a nice skewering of the whole thing: http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/michael-stewart/2014/09/harpers-franklin-discovery-or-did-anyone-ask-inuit



The hate is strong in that one. The oral knowledge did play a part in the search and somehow not wasting time and money on another "commission" is a sign of Harper being Hateful? Sigh, I wonder if the lawyers hire people to push for commissions they will make wads of money off of? 

and for you ex-parents that missed all the TV shows, here was my kids favorite:


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Sep 2014)

Actually, the problem lies with our friendly CBC and Peter Mansbridge. As usual, without knowing what they are talking about, they make statements and claims that are ridiculous of the type "the ship was exactly where the Inuit said it was".

There was no such precision in the Inuit oral history. They knew from it that "in that passage, off that point, not too far from land" a ship had been seen.

This is not new knowledge never used before: Most expeditions that went after Franklin's ships asked the Inuit and usually got the same answer from which they worked, and it did not come to fruition then.

In minehunting, we probably use some of the best high definition sonars there are. We go four or five times over ground in harbour approaches we already know and have mapped, using DGPS for the most precise locating of the area we cleared and still, we only say that it has been cleared - never that it is safe - because even then we could have missed something.

The information provided by the Inuit oral history was useful, but it was nowhere near sufficient. This expedition could have easily turned out a negative result even with the information.


----------



## Marchog (10 Sep 2014)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Here's a nice skewering of the whole thing: http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/michael-stewart/2014/09/harpers-franklin-discovery-or-did-anyone-ask-inuit


The very thought of Rabble.ca makes my blood pressure shoot up.


----------



## jpjohnsn (10 Sep 2014)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> In what sense is that "nice"?
> 
> Is your hatred actually so strong that you cannot see the historical significance of this?
> 
> I actually would not care if a (hypothetical) PM Trudeau or PM Mulcair were onstage yesterday- I still would have found this to be a neat story.  But, maybe I am just a simpleton....


As an historical buff, myself, the find is INCREDIBLY exciting.  I was even caught singing Stan Roger's "Northwest Passage" by a co-worker at one point.  

But, and there is a but...

While I give the PM and the search team 10/10 on their triumph, I have to wonder why some programs are being cut to the bone - and even into the bone - in the name of fiscal responsibility and, yet, the PM's hobby is indulged using public funds.  War of 1812 celebrations, retro ranks and names for the CF, searching for the lost Franklin Expedition.  In better times, I'd be, and have been, a staunch defender of, and cheerleader for, this type of thing but I wonder why nearly 200 year-old sunken ships take funding priorty over, say, the current and future RCN.

Now, the search for HMS Terror and Erebus has the side effect of also mapping swaths of the sea floor which may come in handy as the Northwest Passage opens up and we need to assert our sovereignty. And if it was marketed as "This is a sovereignty exercise and, by the way, while we're there will keep an eye out for Franklin's Ships", I'd be all over it.  But photo op after photo op, press release after press release, finding the missing ships is the goal, not the side project and the PM has been front and centre in nearly every pic.


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Sep 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> and for you ex-parents that missed all the TV shows, here was my kids favorite:



I was lucky, my kids caught the second coming in the early 90's the "The Thunderbirds" and "Captain Scarlett" both shows from my childhood.  Thank god I missed the "Teletubbies", that would have made me more mental than I already am.


----------



## GAP (10 Sep 2014)

Ah...but you are not running for office in 2015 and are down in in the polls......


----------



## a_majoor (10 Sep 2014)

Most Canadians have no idea about defense issues, sovereignty or even what is happening in the town just down the highway. Trying to "sell" the Franklin expedition on the basis of defense or sovereignty would have elicited a "huh?" at best and a hostile response (spending money on guns instead of butter) at worst.

The Prime Minister is combining multiple objectives in these expeditions (asserting Canadian sovereignty, preparing the RCN for arctic operations, creating and reenforcing a "Canadian" national narrative based on shared history and achievments, winning the next election), so things are not as straightforward as you or I might like, or even apprieciate.


----------



## jpjohnsn (10 Sep 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Most Canadians have no idea about defense issues, sovereignty or even what is happening in the town just down the highway. Trying to "sell" the Franklin expedition on the basis of defense or sovereignty would have elicited a "huh?" at best and a hostile response (spending money on guns instead of butter) at worst.
> 
> The Prime Minister is combining multiple objectives in these expeditions (asserting Canadian sovereignty, preparing the RCN for arctic operations, creating and reenforcing a "Canadian" national narrative based on shared history and achievments, winning the next election), so things are not as straightforward as you or I might like, or even apprieciate.


On this, I think you underestimate "most Canadians".  The potential opening of the Northwest Passage to shipping - and how we protect our sovereignty in the area - has been covered enough that I've heard people around me talk about the subject, at some level or another, who normally consider news the boring part before the weather forecast and the latest sports.  A project to map the NWP would, in my opinion anyway, would be an easier sell, politically and for our fiscal future, than would an historical treasure hunt.   

The "Colbert Bump" the PM may get through National Pride at the moment may not linger the next time the public is told there is no money for something and someone points at this and says 'well how come there was money to look for that shipwreck up north, then?' No one will remember more important benefits if they aren't presented.

All I'm saying is that the PM would have been farther ahead to play up the sovereignty and economic benefits of the project up front and reinforce the idea he's a statesman AND bask in the glory of one - and maybe both - of Franklin's ships being found on his watch.   By going for one and not the other, it opens him up to getting bit in the butt later.


----------



## d_edwards (10 Sep 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Most Canadians have no idea about defense issues, sovereignty or even what is happening in the town just down the highway. Trying to "sell" the Franklin expedition on the basis of defense or sovereignty would have elicited a "huh?" at best and a hostile response (spending money on guns instead of butter) at worst.
> 
> The Prime Minister is combining multiple objectives in these expeditions (asserting Canadian sovereignty, preparing the RCN for arctic operations, creating and reenforcing a "Canadian" national narrative based on shared history and achievments, winning the next election), so things are not as straightforward as you or I might like, or even apprieciate.



I think your analogy of  this is spot  on.


----------



## Kilo_302 (10 Sep 2014)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> In what sense is that "nice"?
> 
> Is your hatred actually so strong that you cannot see the historical significance of this?
> 
> I actually would not care if a (hypothetical) PM Trudeau or PM Mulcair were onstage yesterday- I still would have found this to be a neat story.  But, maybe I am just a simpleton....



In historical terms this discovery IS somewhat important, as a student of history I can recognize that (though I think it should have been privately funded, as many of these projects are). But in political terms, it's hard to hide the blatant propaganda here, as well as the disconnect with Harper's overall "real" policies. Trumpeting the importance of the North and the role of science in this discovery is all well and good. But then you look at his policies towards both and it's quite apparent this is a stunt and nothing more. When Putin went down in the submersible we all guffawed (rightly so), so how is this any different?

Was this a good use of money? There's a thread on this site that discusses spending money on parties for past wars and honouring veterans versus spending the money on our current forces. It's a similiar situation here. I think spending millions to find a ship all for the purposes of a photo op is ridiculous when that money could have been used to maintain federal funding for Experimental Lakes Area, or other scientific research in the North (which has been cut to the bone). Or better yet, if it's history you're worried about, give some money to museums where the average Canadian can actually see the results of their tax dollars. Let's face it, this discovery is practically irrevelant to most Canadians, and we blew millions on it.  In fact it's importance is directly related to the amount of money the government has spent on messaging. And yes, I DO have certain hatred for Harper. Just as I do for Trudeau and Mulcair. They're politicians 


Actually I just ran into an editorial from that Harper bashing bastion of progressive thought, the Globe and Mail, which better says what I was writing above (they even mention ELA): 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/editorials/finding-the-franklin-expedition-finding-science/article20502337/#dashboard/follows/


----------



## Edward Campbell (10 Sep 2014)

Few political parties poll as assiduously as does the Conservative Party of Canada and fewer still are as ruthless in their analysis. The CPC is, rightly, taken to task for "slicing and dicing" Canadian opinion so that they can _micro-target_ their policies for their own, partisan, political ends. But, all that polling tells them some BIG things, too:

     1. Canadians don't really care about science ~ they want the benefits, but they aren't really interested in whether Canadian government scientists are  "muzzled" or not;

     2. Canadian do "care' about the North. It is a basic, emotional thing, not, again, about policy, not about economics, not even about sovereignty, unless the USA is involved; and

     3. Canadians do not like spending money on national defence.

Those BIG things are pretty common knowledge in the political science world ~ all the polls, by all the parties and all the media outlets tell everyone the same things. They also drive the partisan PR wars. It's why Prime Minister Harper's PR professionals are _spinning_ this story as they are, and it's why Judy Rebick _et al_ are responding the way they do.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Sep 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Few political parties poll as assiduously as does the Conservative Party of Canada and fewer still are as ruthless in their analysis. The CPC is, rightly, taken to task for "slicing and dicing" Canadian opinion so that they can _micro-target_ their policies for their own, partisan, political ends. But, all that polling tells them some BIG things, too:
> 
> 1. Canadians don't really care about science ~ they want the benefits, but they aren't really interested in whether Canadian government scientists are  "muzzled" or not;
> 
> ...



How about an Arctic 'Americorps' then? http://www.nationalservice.gov/programs/americorps


----------



## Edward Campbell (10 Sep 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> How about an Arctic 'Americorps' then? http://www.nationalservice.gov/programs/americorps




I'm afraid that _Katimavik_ or _Company of Young Canadians_ type programmes are not terribly popular these days ... especially not with Conservatives.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Sep 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Few political parties poll as assiduously as does the Conservative Party of Canada and fewer still are as ruthless in their analysis. The CPC is, rightly, taken to task for "slicing and dicing" Canadian opinion so that they can _micro-target_ their policies for their own, partisan, political ends. But, all that polling tells them some BIG things, too:
> 
> 1. Canadians don't really care about science ~ they want the benefits, but they aren't really interested in whether Canadian government scientists are  "muzzled" or not until some freakish illness comes in from abroad or large scale food poisoning occurs;
> 
> ...



TFTFY

And Kilo 302, we didn't spend "millions" on this: One of the MCDV's and a coast guard ship were going up there on sovereignty patrol no matter what. I just wondered, personally, how Mr Harper and his wife enjoyed sharing the captain's cabin on the MCDV: not quite 24 Sussex's standards - and Navy ships have "cooks", not "Chefs de cuisine"


----------



## chrisf (10 Sep 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> TFTFY
> 
> And Kilo 302, we didn't spend "millions" on this: One of the MCDV's and a coast guard ship were going up there on sovereignty patrol no matter what. I just wondered, personally, how Mr Harper and his wife enjoyed sharing the captain's cabin on the MCDV: not quite 24 Sussex's standards - and Navy ships have "cooks", not "Chefs de cuisine"



Probably about as much as he enjoyed staying in the CO's room when he visited CFS Alert... which he appeared to enjoy very much....

Finding the Franklin ship was a bit of a side effect of UNCLOS related mapping of the arctic sea floor, much of it was money being spent anyway.


----------



## Kilo_302 (10 Sep 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> TFTFY
> 
> And Kilo 302, we didn't spend "millions" on this: One of the MCDV's and a coast guard ship were going up there on sovereignty patrol no matter what. I just wondered, personally, how Mr Harper and his wife enjoyed sharing the captain's cabin on the MCDV: not quite 24 Sussex's standards - and Navy ships have "cooks", not "Chefs de cuisine"



Right, I'm just going on what the media is saying, a few articles have used the term "millions" specifically for finding lost wrecks. I'm not sure if anyone knows whether or not that's part of the overall UNCLOS mapping mentioned above?

  I guess the point is, given the cuts to everything else science and arctic, Canadians aren't really going to buy this messaging.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Sep 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Probably about as much as he enjoyed staying in the CO's room when he visited CFS Alert... which he appeared to enjoy very much....
> 
> Finding the Franklin ship was a bit of a side effect of UNCLOS related mapping of the arctic sea floor, much of it was money being spent anyway.



I don't think that the CO's room at CFS Alert compares to the CO's cabin: An MCDV's CO's cabin is about 3.5 m. by 4 m., within which you have to fit a comfortable chair (the only creature-comfort afforded the CO), two fairly large safes, a work desk with a desk chair, a sink and medicine cabinet, a filing cabinet, a bookshelf, two lockers and a "triple" sofa, which turns into a single bed at night, not to mention all the usable space used up by computers, communication gear and various information displays (such as compass repeaters) for the CO. Either the PM or his wife would have had to climb and sleep in the "Pullman" bed also located there for visiting senior officer.

Personally, I was surprised that he didn't ferry over to the coast guard ship every night.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Sep 2014)

Why let details get in the way of a good rant. I do agree with the criticisms about grand speeches of opening a base and then finally coming out with a much watered down and late alternative. The money being turned back by DND would have easily paid for the basing option they first announced.


----------



## Stoker (10 Sep 2014)

I'm actually on a RCN ship right now well north of 60 and we're showing the flag in places I never thought I would ever see in my career. This in my opinion very important work as we start to assert ourselves more in the Arctic. When I get back i'll post some pictures of where we were.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (10 Sep 2014)

Can we just stick to the discovery and let all the politics fall out in the other political threads?

The Harper basher(s) never miss an opportunity to take an offside swipe. Well, this isn't the thread for it.


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Sep 2014)

Yes, back to the regularly scheduled program.  

I listened to Adrian Gell, who is the great great grandson of Frankin, being interviewed on CBC radio this morning.  Franklin's decedents are understandably very excited at this discovery and hope that more will be gleaned on the fate of his ships and crew.  I would expect that there are many others with personal connections to this saga that are all galvanised with these events.  It must be electric, the feelings of excitement and expectation of more to come.  



> For others, the discovery also marks a new beginning of a more personal nature in the efforts to unravel the sad saga of what happened to British naval hero Sir John Franklin and his crew of 128 men as they tried to find the long-sought Northwest Passage.
> 
> "This has completely opened up again a new chapter in the mystery and hopefully now we will find out a lot more," said Adrian Gell, a great-great-great-grandson of Franklin.  "I think it's a fantastic job that this current expedition has done in completing the find," he said in an interview Tuesday from his home northwest of London, England.
> 
> ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Sep 2014)

I would guess that they have mapped a lot of the bottom of various parts of the arctic waterway systems during this search.

Hmmmm..... I wonder how that information be of use to us in the future?


----------



## chrisf (11 Sep 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Personally, I was surprised that he didn't ferry over to the coast guard ship every night.



While much more comfortable than a navy ship, accommodations on board the Laurier aren't exactly stately... the main deck crew cabins all have bunk beds at least, so much more room for activities...

With a crew of 17, and scientists on board, wouldn't have any room for anyone else, max POB is 26.

They barely managed to cram Michelle jean and entourage onto the George R pearkes, with a bare bones crew.


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Sep 2014)

I'd have no problem making room for MJ, she turned into my favorite GG.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Sep 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> While much more comfortable than a navy ship, accommodations on board the Laurier aren't exactly stately... the main deck crew cabins all have bunk beds at least, so much more room for activities...
> 
> With a crew of 17, and scientists on board, wouldn't have any room for anyone else, max POB is 26.
> 
> They barely managed to cram Michelle jean and entourage onto the George R pearkes, with a bare bones crew.



I will disagree, coming from an R class Cutter to the Pearkes was like going to cruise liner. Each cabin had 2 bunks, settee, porthole, sink and shared a head with the next cabin. It was huge. You could actually squeeze another set of bunks into each cabin and as I recall we went to the Arctic with 45 people crew and scientists.


----------



## Stoker (11 Sep 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I will disagree, coming from an R class Cutter to the Pearkes was like going to cruise liner. Each cabin had 2 bunks, settee, porthole, sink and shared a head with the next cabin. It was huge. You could actually squeeze another set of bunks into each cabin and as I recall we went to the Arctic with 45 people crew and scientists.



I was on the Henry Larson the other day just after we fueled with them and they have a really nice ship. Lots of room, comfortable berths, nice bar. Hopefully the AOPS will as comfortable as the Larson.


----------



## chrisf (11 Sep 2014)

The Larsen is pretty much the most comfortable ship in the fleet.

The 1100s a pretty nice too, but it doesn't change the max persons on board


----------



## chrisf (11 Sep 2014)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'd have no problem making room for MJ, she turned into my favorite GG.



She really did exceed everyones initial expectations by leaps and bounds didn't she?

The pics of her eating raw seal blubber was the day I was impressed.

Back on topic, I sincerely hope this doesn't mean we're done the search, there's another one up there to find yet.


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Sep 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Back on topic, I sincerely hope this doesn't mean we're done the search, there's another one up there to find yet.


No, I'll bet this will just fuel the desire for the search.  Unless of course there's a major change of government that's not too keen for it.


----------



## jollyjacktar (12 Sep 2016)

It is believed and hoped that HMS Terror has  been located 90 km south of where she was believed lost.  Well done, BZ!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/hms-terror-found-1.3758400


----------

