# RE: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"william durrant" <gunner10@sprint.ca>* on *Sat, 1 Apr 2000 21:44:33 -0500*
List,
At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first hand experiences
when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton that.  NDHQ‘s
main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and this way of
thinking has been passed down to the individual units. The CF spends more
money on enforcing "policy", diversity training, SHARP training, and
civilian contracters than we do on training.  The CF is so restricted
especially the reserves when it comes to training that sometimes it is not
even worth doing.
A couple of first hand examples....
1.  Members of a reserve army unit conduct unauthorized training in civilian
clothing, with weapons, in an urban area, without contacting brigade or the
civilian authorities.  Obviously, this contadicts about 300 references from
the QRO‘s.  So, the action to be taken is already provided for....charge
everyone directly or indirectly involved and punish them with all the might
of the NDA....But, of course, this is not what happened. instead, Brigade HQ
issued a policy that every unit in the Brigade must file a request for ANY
TRAINING TO BE CONDUCTED OFF ARMOURY PROPERTY.  This policy alone will
produce 1000‘s of hours per year of paperwork per unit. not to mention the
clerks at HQ who have to deal with it all.
2.  Members of a reserve army unit, while conducting a range, without
authorization, fire their weapons at unautorized targets outside the
autorized arcs of fire during silent hours.  Again,  There are already rules
and consequences for their actions, however, instead of employing these
options, Brigade decides to employ a civilian range warden, on overtime, to
watch over all soldiers Sgt‘s, Major‘s, Colonels when they are using the
range.
When I hear about how much more important it is to pay all these people to
do NOTHING than it is to preserve the proud traditions of combat arms units,
it makes me want to puke.  I have daily contact with a group of RMS
personnel, after their leave days, "CTO" days, hockey afternoon, extended
lunch breaks, come to work late wednesdays, and leave early no uniform
fridays, they work less than 23 hours per week!!.....last week I worked 82.
The bottom line is that yes, they perform a vital service, but obviously, at
23 hours...there are too many.
for your consideration...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
[mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of Gordan Dundas
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 2:51 PM
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
Ahh... they already did just that if they do again if you think you‘re
having
difficulty getting paid ‘clothed .fed. downsize NDHQ.I suspect no one will
like
what happens or does‘nt after that.
I suspect that while there‘s some fat there still it‘s unlikely to be cut
first
and any cutting will those who efforts affect the troops.
John Gilmour wrote:
> I concure with Dave Newcombe,  go one step further to say DOWNSIZE the
> PAPER-PUSHERS @ NDHQ !!!!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dave newcombe 
> To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 10:51 PM
> Subject: Re: They also serve who ...
>
> >What happens if we have another domestic crisis, such as Oka.  Lets pray
> >that it doesn‘t happen during the annual flood season, or during the turn
> >around time for units deploying on U.N. missions.  We barely had enough
> >combat troops to deploy during the Oka crisis.  We still had plenty of
> staff
> >at N.D.H.Q., taking their early Fridays, and pushing paper back and
forth.
> >We need to make our Armed services less bound to desks and paper trails.
> If
> >we plan on making our reserve units more efficient, then couldn‘t we
spend
> >that much energy making our headquarters at all levels more stream lined.
> I
> >for one don‘t believe that there is any place on any base for people who
> are
> >not in uniform.
> >How many Army Officers of all classifications are there out there in
> >administrative only roles, vs, Officers in Combat formations. this
carries
> >down to other ranks as well
> >We need to learn to do more soldiering and less papering.
> >We need leaders to lead men in combat units, not make coffee for higher
> >ranks at command H.Q.s
> >
> >I think I‘ll switch to de-caf this week.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Gordan Dundas" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 8:18 AM
> >Subject: Re: They also serve who ...
> >
> >
> >> Am I missing something ?
> >>  I say this because I ‘ve got an idea that is  probably quite stupid
but
> >> here goes .Instead of  adding more service units to the roster why
don‘t
> >we
> >> just expand the the current ones?
> >>  Now I know the reason for this restructuring is an attempt by NDHQ to
> >> basically get something for nothing.ie: a transport unit shouldn‘t cost
> >> anymore to run then a rifle coy.and a transport plt. is probably more
> >useful
> >> to the reg. force then a militia rifle coy.
> >> This is I‘m afraid going to further erode what good feeling reservists
> >have
> >> toward their reg force brethren and reinforce the feeling that all
> >> reservists are viewed as expendable cannon fodder.Or at least as a
source
> >of
> >> warm bodies.
> >>  To be be honest from this lowly civvies point of view it is the reg
> force
> >> that is need of restructuring  it ‘s the one that is in desperate need
of
> >> service units.However combat arms is "sexy" combat support is‘nt.So
let‘s
> >> fob this off on the Militia.
> >>  The real problem isn‘t the the reserves or the reg force or even DND
it
> >our
> >> political leadership who have for years ignored the sad state of the
> Armed
> >> Forces.The armed force have been extremely lucky that we‘ve had had a
> very
> >> large deployment that has lasted more then 90 days.
> >> By this I mean 5-8000 troops deployed during the Red river flood and
the
> >ice
> >> storms the following year.what would have happened if the Winnipeg
flood
> >way
> >> had collapsed or the Brunkild Dike given way?Or if the ice storms and
> >> exterme cold weather conditions had gone on?
> >> In either event  they would have been followed by the collapse of the
> >> Canadian Forces.This is not helped by our current leaderships desire to
> >send
> >> troops just about everywhere on a moments notice.One begins to suspect
> >that
> >> the Motto of the Armed Forces is "if this is tuesday,this must be
> >Belgium?"
> >>  If I‘ve been rambling it‘s the cold medication.....Honest!
> >> Cheers !Gordon
> >>
> >> Ian Edwards wrote:
> >>
> >> > I think a strong legal argument could be made against restructuring
a
> >> > euphemism certain units. Let‘s consider the case of The Royal Moose
> Jaw
> >> > Fusiliers to keep it neutral. For the younger readers - YES it‘s a
> >> > made up name.
> >> >
> >> > The RMJR has a fine history dating back to before Christ was a Cpl.
It
> >> > raised battalions for blah, blah, blah wars. Today the "unit" IS THE
> >> > REGIMENT. Or perhaps not. During WW2 the Regiment had several
> battalions
> >> > on Active Service Overseas, a battalion in the Reserve Army at home
and
> >> > one in July 1945 at Shilo preparing to join the Canadian Army Pacific
> >> > Force before the Bomb was dropped. Times got tough over in Paga
Pogo
> >> > in 1944 and the 1st Battalion was converted from Infantry to a Postal
> >> > Battlion, scaring the ****  out of Hitler. it was a dirty job but
some
> >> > had to do it. When the emergency passed they reverted to Infy and
went
> >> > back to the front lines as part of the 9th Canadian Infantry
Division.
> >> >
> >> > Change them now in the year 2000 to a Mobile Bath and Laundry Unit?
> >> > Well, depends on who the "them" is. It can be argued, somewhat
> >> > successfully, that DND does not "own" the name RMJF. Ottawa doesn‘t
own
> >> > the Regimental customs and traditions, doesn‘t "own" the cap badge
was
> >> > in existence before approval by a General Order, and certainly
doesn‘t
> >> > own their dress uniforms, etc, etc. or the right to wear a copy of
> them.
> >> > The Regiment is much more than just its unit, which is in essence
their
> >> > 1st Battalion only bn numbers being dropped when there is only the
one
> >> > "unit". Legally, the RMJR Senate has the right to refuse to be
> >> > converted to "The 43rd Mobile Bath and Sanitation Battlion Royal
Moose
> >> > Jaw Fusiliers". The Senate has a choice. About all Ottawa can do is
> >> > reduce the "unit" to nil strength and transfer the unit to the
> >> > Supplementary Order of Battle in reality, completing the death of
the
> >> > Regiment. The same day Ottawa can cut a piece of paper creating The
> >> > 43rd Mobile Bath and Sanitation Battalion no supplementary title,
> thank
> >> > you and transfer all ranks to this new abomination for as long as
the
> >> > Old Fus‘ FORMER MEMBERS will stay. If that‘s the only game in town,
> some
> >> > might. A few. I dunno.
> >> >
> >> > The Senate has a say. For any kids still reading this far, the
Senate
> >> > is a body consisting of the former COs of the battalions and
perhaps
> a
> >> > few other VIPs and/or "honoraries". It‘s often incorporated under the
> >> > provincial societies‘ act, and is in no way part of DND Take for
> >> > example "the crazy eights". In early 1957, the 8th Princess Louise‘s
> >> > New Brunswick Hussars changed their name to the 8th Canadian
Hussars
> >> > Princess Louise‘s. Why? Well, first of all their regimental senate
> >> > approved of the change. The change was required in order for the
> >> > regiment to gain a Regular Force armoured component and the name
> >> > change was deemed necessary by Ottawa to remove the local-only stigma
> >> > within their name you can just imagine the fights that would have
> >> > broken out in a bar in Saskatoon if those New Brunswickers, ripe from
a
> >> > month in Dundurn, tried to steal a local gal from the Toon Town
boys.
> >> >
> >> > The 8CH. THEY WERE NOT THE FIRST TO BE ASKED. At least one regiment,
> the
> >> > 1st Hussars, from London in the bush, turned down the offer, tempting
> as
> >> > it was. I think "The Plugs" 4PLGD were also asked and declined. The
> >> > 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards are no longer with us.
> >> > Death Before Dishonour, disbanded a few years later.
> >> > --------------------------------------------------------
> >> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> > message body.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> message body.
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:38:44 -0700*
Unfortunately, a military moves on paperwork..always has and always
will.  
I will agree no doubt it will upset some the military CSS trades need
a better understanding thatof customer service toward others in the
military.  Having said that, I‘ve also got alot of respect for some CSS
types that I‘ve met.  EMEs for example have outstanding esprit de corps
and motivation my hats off to them.  RMS clerks on the other hand I
find have spent too much time feeling sorry for themselves.  
I guess you can‘t lump all trades into one pot.  I‘ve met good Reg F and
bad Reg F, good Res F and bad Res F....same with Inf, Armd, Arty
although I have to admit most are really good! :   
I don‘t know of the incidents you mention, however, depending on your
rank you may simply not know what‘s gone on behind the scenes...for
example, if the CO of the unit was reprimanded, I would hope it didn‘t
get publized on the armoury floor. 
Finally, your comments about your full-time staff at your armoury.  I
went through a similar phase as you are when I was a part timer.  I was
upset when we the gun detachment were trying to get ready for an
exercise and the full time staff were going home to have supper with
their families.  You have to remember that their job is to keep the unit
running on a day to day basis, whereas yours is a part-time job.  Their
full time job allows them time for PT, CTO for working parade nights and
weekends. When you show up for a parade, you are being paid extra
compensation for being there.  Your full-time staff aren‘t.
Our military system is a frustrating one, but don‘t take it out on NDHQ,
or the RMS clerks in your unit.  Your full time staff probably feel
under appreciated!
Gunner sends.....
william durrant wrote:
> 
> List,
> At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first hand experiences
> when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
> clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
> Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
> serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton that.  NDHQ‘s
> main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and this way of
> thinking has been passed down to the individual units. The CF spends more
> money on enforcing "policy", diversity training, SHARP training, and
> civilian contracters than we do on training.  The CF is so restricted
> especially the reserves when it comes to training that sometimes it is not
> even worth doing.
> A couple of first hand examples....
> 1.  Members of a reserve army unit conduct unauthorized training in civilian
> clothing, with weapons, in an urban area, without contacting brigade or the
> civilian authorities.  Obviously, this contadicts about 300 references from
> the QRO‘s.  So, the action to be taken is already provided for....charge
> everyone directly or indirectly involved and punish them with all the might
> of the NDA....But, of course, this is not what happened. instead, Brigade HQ
> issued a policy that every unit in the Brigade must file a request for ANY
> TRAINING TO BE CONDUCTED OFF ARMOURY PROPERTY.  This policy alone will
> produce 1000‘s of hours per year of paperwork per unit. not to mention the
> clerks at HQ who have to deal with it all.
> 2.  Members of a reserve army unit, while conducting a range, without
> authorization, fire their weapons at unautorized targets outside the
> autorized arcs of fire during silent hours.  Again,  There are already rules
> and consequences for their actions, however, instead of employing these
> options, Brigade decides to employ a civilian range warden, on overtime, to
> watch over all soldiers Sgt‘s, Major‘s, Colonels when they are using the
> range.
> When I hear about how much more important it is to pay all these people to
> do NOTHING than it is to preserve the proud traditions of combat arms units,
> it makes me want to puke.  I have daily contact with a group of RMS
> personnel, after their leave days, "CTO" days, hockey afternoon, extended
> lunch breaks, come to work late wednesdays, and leave early no uniform
> fridays, they work less than 23 hours per week!!.....last week I worked 82.
> The bottom line is that yes, they perform a vital service, but obviously, at
> 23 hours...there are too many.
> for your consideration...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> [mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of Gordan Dundas
> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 2:51 PM
> To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
> 
> Ahh... they already did just that if they do again if you think you‘re
> having
> difficulty getting paid ‘clothed .fed. downsize NDHQ.I suspect no one will
> like
> what happens or does‘nt after that.
> I suspect that while there‘s some fat there still it‘s unlikely to be cut
> first
> and any cutting will those who efforts affect the troops.
> 
> John Gilmour wrote:
> 
> > I concure with Dave Newcombe,  go one step further to say DOWNSIZE the
> > PAPER-PUSHERS @ NDHQ !!!!
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dave newcombe 
> > To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 10:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: They also serve who ...
> >
> > >What happens if we have another domestic crisis, such as Oka.  Lets pray
> > >that it doesn‘t happen during the annual flood season, or during the turn
> > >around time for units deploying on U.N. missions.  We barely had enough
> > >combat troops to deploy during the Oka crisis.  We still had plenty of
> > staff
> > >at N.D.H.Q., taking their early Fridays, and pushing paper back and
> forth.
> > >We need to make our Armed services less bound to desks and paper trails.
> > If
> > >we plan on making our reserve units more efficient, then couldn‘t we
> spend
> > >that much energy making our headquarters at all levels more stream lined.
> > I
> > >for one don‘t believe that there is any place on any base for people who
> > are
> > >not in uniform.
> > >How many Army Officers of all classifications are there out there in
> > >administrative only roles, vs, Officers in Combat formations. this
> carries
> > >down to other ranks as well
> > >We need to learn to do more soldiering and less papering.
> > >We need leaders to lead men in combat units, not make coffee for higher
> > >ranks at command H.Q.s
> > >
> > >I think I‘ll switch to de-caf this week.
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Gordan Dundas" 
> > >To: 
> > >Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 8:18 AM
> > >Subject: Re: They also serve who ...
> > >
> > >
> > >> Am I missing something ?
> > >>  I say this because I ‘ve got an idea that is  probably quite stupid
> but
> > >> here goes .Instead of  adding more service units to the roster why
> don‘t
> > >we
> > >> just expand the the current ones?
> > >>  Now I know the reason for this restructuring is an attempt by NDHQ to
> > >> basically get something for nothing.ie: a transport unit shouldn‘t cost
> > >> anymore to run then a rifle coy.and a transport plt. is probably more
> > >useful
> > >> to the reg. force then a militia rifle coy.
> > >> This is I‘m afraid going to further erode what good feeling reservists
> > >have
> > >> toward their reg force brethren and reinforce the feeling that all
> > >> reservists are viewed as expendable cannon fodder.Or at least as a
> source
> > >of
> > >> warm bodies.
> > >>  To be be honest from this lowly civvies point of view it is the reg
> > force
> > >> that is need of restructuring  it ‘s the one that is in desperate need
> of
> > >> service units.However combat arms is "sexy" combat support is‘nt.So
> let‘s
> > >> fob this off on the Militia.
> > >>  The real problem isn‘t the the reserves or the reg force or even DND
> it
> > >our
> > >> political leadership who have for years ignored the sad state of the
> > Armed
> > >> Forces.The armed force have been extremely lucky that we‘ve had had a
> > very
> > >> large deployment that has lasted more then 90 days.
> > >> By this I mean 5-8000 troops deployed during the Red river flood and
> the
> > >ice
> > >> storms the following year.what would have happened if the Winnipeg
> flood
> > >way
> > >> had collapsed or the Brunkild Dike given way?Or if the ice storms and
> > >> exterme cold weather conditions had gone on?
> > >> In either event  they would have been followed by the collapse of the
> > >> Canadian Forces.This is not helped by our current leaderships desire to
> > >send
> > >> troops just about everywhere on a moments notice.One begins to suspect
> > >that
> > >> the Motto of the Armed Forces is "if this is tuesday,this must be
> > >Belgium?"
> > >>  If I‘ve been rambling it‘s the cold medication.....Honest!
> > >> Cheers !Gordon
> > >>
> > >> Ian Edwards wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > I think a strong legal argument could be made against restructuring
> a
> > >> > euphemism certain units. Let‘s consider the case of The Royal Moose
> > Jaw
> > >> > Fusiliers to keep it neutral. For the younger readers - YES it‘s a
> > >> > made up name.
> > >> >
> > >> > The RMJR has a fine history dating back to before Christ was a Cpl.
> It
> > >> > raised battalions for blah, blah, blah wars. Today the "unit" IS THE
> > >> > REGIMENT. Or perhaps not. During WW2 the Regiment had several
> > battalions
> > >> > on Active Service Overseas, a battalion in the Reserve Army at home
> and
> > >> > one in July 1945 at Shilo preparing to join the Canadian Army Pacific
> > >> > Force before the Bomb was dropped. Times got tough over in Paga
> Pogo
> > >> > in 1944 and the 1st Battalion was converted from Infantry to a Postal
> > >> > Battlion, scaring the ****  out of Hitler. it was a dirty job but
> some
> > >> > had to do it. When the emergency passed they reverted to Infy and
> went
> > >> > back to the front lines as part of the 9th Canadian Infantry
> Division.
> > >> >
> > >> > Change them now in the year 2000 to a Mobile Bath and Laundry Unit?
> > >> > Well, depends on who the "them" is. It can be argued, somewhat
> > >> > successfully, that DND does not "own" the name RMJF. Ottawa doesn‘t
> own
> > >> > the Regimental customs and traditions, doesn‘t "own" the cap badge
> was
> > >> > in existence before approval by a General Order, and certainly
> doesn‘t
> > >> > own their dress uniforms, etc, etc. or the right to wear a copy of
> > them.
> > >> > The Regiment is much more than just its unit, which is in essence
> their
> > >> > 1st Battalion only bn numbers being dropped when there is only the
> one
> > >> > "unit". Legally, the RMJR Senate has the right to refuse to be
> > >> > converted to "The 43rd Mobile Bath and Sanitation Battlion Royal
> Moose
> > >> > Jaw Fusiliers". The Senate has a choice. About all Ottawa can do is
> > >> > reduce the "unit" to nil strength and transfer the unit to the
> > >> > Supplementary Order of Battle in reality, completing the death of
> the
> > >> > Regiment. The same day Ottawa can cut a piece of paper creating The
> > >> > 43rd Mobile Bath and Sanitation Battalion no supplementary title,
> > thank
> > >> > you and transfer all ranks to this new abomination for as long as
> the
> > >> > Old Fus‘ FORMER MEMBERS will stay. If that‘s the only game in town,
> > some
> > >> > might. A few. I dunno.
> > >> >
> > >> > The Senate has a say. For any kids still reading this far, the
> Senate
> > >> > is a body consisting of the former COs of the battalions and
> perhaps
> > a
> > >> > few other VIPs and/or "honoraries". It‘s often incorporated under the
> > >> > provincial societies‘ act, and is in no way part of DND Take for
> > >> > example "the crazy eights". In early 1957, the 8th Princess Louise‘s
> > >> > New Brunswick Hussars changed their name to the 8th Canadian
> Hussars
> > >> > Princess Louise‘s. Why? Well, first of all their regimental senate
> > >> > approved of the change. The change was required in order for the
> > >> > regiment to gain a Regular Force armoured component and the name
> > >> > change was deemed necessary by Ottawa to remove the local-only stigma
> > >> > within their name you can just imagine the fights that would have
> > >> > broken out in a bar in Saskatoon if those New Brunswickers, ripe from
> a
> > >> > month in Dundurn, tried to steal a local gal from the Toon Town
> boys.
> > >> >
> > >> > The 8CH. THEY WERE NOT THE FIRST TO BE ASKED. At least one regiment,
> > the
> > >> > 1st Hussars, from London in the bush, turned down the offer, tempting
> > as
> > >> > it was. I think "The Plugs" 4PLGD were also asked and declined. The
> > >> > 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards are no longer with us.
> > >> > Death Before Dishonour, disbanded a few years later.
> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >> > message body.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --------------------------------------------------------
> > >> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >> message body.
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Sun, 02 Apr 2000 06:51:34 -0600*
on 1/4/00 20:44,  william durrant at gunner10@sprint.ca wrote:
> At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first hand experiences
> when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
> clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
> Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
> serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton that.  NDHQ‘s
> main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and this way of
> thinking has been passed down to the individual units.
It‘s funny. I spent the last 3 of  my 32 years service at NDHQ. Directorate
or Combat Mobility, Directorate or Personnel Planning and then on the 17th
floor or the ‘ivory tower‘ at the Land Staff. I searched all of the
paperwork and tried hard to think of a time when, I read or heard anyone
tell me that I was posted there to justify and maintain the existence of
NDHQ. I did hear lots about supporting the ‘sharp end‘ and forget about
catching your bus in the evening to make it home in time for supper. I did
see young combats arms Captains, who would be much happier in a platoon or
company, work long hours to insure the gortex kit was tested and fielded in
time for an operation. I saw career managers burn the midnight oil to get
Cpl Bloggins posted nearer his dying mother. I also saw both civilian
contractors and soldiers pulling hard as a team in order to rotate a unit
out of Bosnia without passing that logistical nightmare down to the frazzled
HQ in theatre.
Everyone has a job. The greasy looking cook who flips eggs in the rain, the
sexy looking hygienist who cleans your teeth in the back of a truck in
Haiti, the grunt piling sandbags around an OP, and yes, god forbid the
‘paper pushers in NDHQ. They are a truly professional lot! They don‘t bitch
and they don‘t whine! They don‘t point fingers and say ‘I work harder than
he does‘ They just get on with the task at hand.
I started at the rank of Craftman Apprentice. Ask around, that is about as
low as one could start. I made it to the dizzy rank of CWO. Some skill and
of course a bit of luck That coupled with the fact that I outlived most of
the people that I pissed off. Your comments about NNHQ and the two stories
about Reserve Units won‘t start a fight. I do, however, take offence when
somebody says that my 50-80 hour weeks at NDHQ made me self serving! Shame
on you Bill.
arte et marte
andy sends
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Larry MacDonald" <lmacdona@mnsi.net>* on *Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:26:42 -0400*
Well said.  I too had the opportunity to serve at NDHQ.  I used to marvel at
the long and probably undocumented hours that staff would work to ensure the
current tasking or project proceeded as planned.  It was through such
dedication that the system was made to work.
I do not regret the time spent at NDHQ.  It provided a better insight into
the organization and a knowledge base that could be put to practical use
later.
Regards
Larry MacDonald
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> [mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of William J 
> Anderson
> Sent: April 2, 2000 8:52 AM
> To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>
>
> on 1/4/00 20:44,  william durrant at gunner10@sprint.ca wrote:
>
> > At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first
> hand experiences
> > when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
> > clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
> > Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
> > serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton
> that.  NDHQ‘s
> > main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and
> this way of
> > thinking has been passed down to the individual units.
>
> It‘s funny. I spent the last 3 of  my 32 years service at NDHQ.
> Directorate
> or Combat Mobility, Directorate or Personnel Planning and then on the 17th
> floor or the ‘ivory tower‘ at the Land Staff. I searched all of the
> paperwork and tried hard to think of a time when, I read or heard anyone
> tell me that I was posted there to justify and maintain the existence of
> NDHQ. I did hear lots about supporting the ‘sharp end‘ and forget about
> catching your bus in the evening to make it home in time for supper. I did
> see young combats arms Captains, who would be much happier in a platoon or
> company, work long hours to insure the gortex kit was tested and
> fielded in
> time for an operation. I saw career managers burn the midnight oil to get
> Cpl Bloggins posted nearer his dying mother. I also saw both civilian
> contractors and soldiers pulling hard as a team in order to rotate a unit
> out of Bosnia without passing that logistical nightmare down to
> the frazzled
> HQ in theatre.
>
> Everyone has a job. The greasy looking cook who flips eggs in the
> rain, the
> sexy looking hygienist who cleans your teeth in the back of a truck in
> Haiti, the grunt piling sandbags around an OP, and yes, god forbid the
> ‘paper pushers in NDHQ. They are a truly professional lot! They
> don‘t bitch
> and they don‘t whine! They don‘t point fingers and say ‘I work harder than
> he does‘ They just get on with the task at hand.
>
> I started at the rank of Craftman Apprentice. Ask around, that is about as
> low as one could start. I made it to the dizzy rank of CWO. Some skill and
> of course a bit of luck That coupled with the fact that I outlived most of
> the people that I pissed off. Your comments about NNHQ and the two stories
> about Reserve Units won‘t start a fight. I do, however, take offence when
> somebody says that my 50-80 hour weeks at NDHQ made me self serving! Shame
> on you Bill.
>
> arte et marte
> andy sends
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:05:10 -0600*
--------------97B1C1ED4ADC303A4178FC5D
        Well, I‘d like to add my two bits. I should explain where I stand. As a
former troopie, having served as an MSE-op 1981-83 in Gagetown, Calgary and TDs
in various places in between I saw a fair amount, or so I thought. In the past
11 years as a civilian cameraman working with DND, I‘ve had the good fortune of
seeing many many people, from NDHQ all the way down to the trenches in
Wainwright, literally. I‘ve been to Bosnia 4 times with 2 different orgs and
Kosovo once. I‘ve been on 50  exercises, seen dozens of Freedom of the city
parades, Change of command parades and well... more parades after that. Been to
more than two dozen bases and stations. I‘ve had the good fortune of working
with and getting to know hundreds of officers, NCOs/NCMs and troops. It didn‘t
long for me to realize everyone is doing an important job... everyone. I‘ve got
a friend at NDHQ who besides the 70-80 hours at work making sure the computer
systems are working right, then spends his free time at his condo rigging
various whazoo computers that he bought on his own together to see if they‘ll
work with various applications, then he‘ll try to make them fail. Then he‘ll use
this knowledge back at DND. Amazing.
        Yet I see this all the time. From the young armour officer who spends
part of his paycheque on Jane‘s books, to the grizzled CSM who volunteers with
his local cadet corps on evenings and weekends. Everyone does work hard, and
there are those who assume no one else works quite as hard as they do. Like I
said, I‘m pretty lucky to be part of so much. My hat‘s off to you all.
Francois Arseneault
Calgary
Larry MacDonald wrote:
> Well said.  I too had the opportunity to serve at NDHQ.  I used to marvel at
> the long and probably undocumented hours that staff would work to ensure the
> current tasking or project proceeded as planned.  It was through such
> dedication that the system was made to work.
>
> I do not regret the time spent at NDHQ.  It provided a better insight into
> the organization and a knowledge base that could be put to practical use
> later.
>
> Regards
>
> Larry MacDonald
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > [mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of William J 
> > Anderson
> > Sent: April 2, 2000 8:52 AM
> > To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
> >
> >
> > on 1/4/00 20:44,  william durrant at gunner10@sprint.ca wrote:
> >
> > > At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first
> > hand experiences
> > > when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
> > > clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
> > > Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
> > > serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton
> > that.  NDHQ‘s
> > > main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and
> > this way of
> > > thinking has been passed down to the individual units.
> >
> > It‘s funny. I spent the last 3 of  my 32 years service at NDHQ.
> > Directorate
> > or Combat Mobility, Directorate or Personnel Planning and then on the 17th
> > floor or the ‘ivory tower‘ at the Land Staff. I searched all of the
> > paperwork and tried hard to think of a time when, I read or heard anyone
> > tell me that I was posted there to justify and maintain the existence of
> > NDHQ. I did hear lots about supporting the ‘sharp end‘ and forget about
> > catching your bus in the evening to make it home in time for supper. I did
> > see young combats arms Captains, who would be much happier in a platoon or
> > company, work long hours to insure the gortex kit was tested and
> > fielded in
> > time for an operation. I saw career managers burn the midnight oil to get
> > Cpl Bloggins posted nearer his dying mother. I also saw both civilian
> > contractors and soldiers pulling hard as a team in order to rotate a unit
> > out of Bosnia without passing that logistical nightmare down to
> > the frazzled
> > HQ in theatre.
> >
> > Everyone has a job. The greasy looking cook who flips eggs in the
> > rain, the
> > sexy looking hygienist who cleans your teeth in the back of a truck in
> > Haiti, the grunt piling sandbags around an OP, and yes, god forbid the
> > ‘paper pushers in NDHQ. They are a truly professional lot! They
> > don‘t bitch
> > and they don‘t whine! They don‘t point fingers and say ‘I work harder than
> > he does‘ They just get on with the task at hand.
> >
> > I started at the rank of Craftman Apprentice. Ask around, that is about as
> > low as one could start. I made it to the dizzy rank of CWO. Some skill and
> > of course a bit of luck That coupled with the fact that I outlived most of
> > the people that I pissed off. Your comments about NNHQ and the two stories
> > about Reserve Units won‘t start a fight. I do, however, take offence when
> > somebody says that my 50-80 hour weeks at NDHQ made me self serving! Shame
> > on you Bill.
> >
> > arte et marte
> > andy sends
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------97B1C1ED4ADC303A4178FC5D
 name="zzzzzzz.vcf"
 filename="zzzzzzz.vcf"
begin:vcard 
n:ArseneaultFrancois 
telwork:403 282-6100
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.avscanada.com/
org:AVS IncCorporate  Broadcast Video Production since 1987
version:2.1
emailinternet:zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net
title:Francois Arseneault - camera/editor
adrquoted-printable:Military, Motorsports and extreme environment specialists=3B =0D=0ADPS Velocity Edit suite=3B =0D=0ABeta SP camera=3B =0D=0AUnderwater unitCalgaryAlbertaCanada
x-mozilla-cpt:-12336
fn:www.avscanada.com
end:vcard
--------------97B1C1ED4ADC303A4178FC5D--
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"william durrant" <gunner10@sprint.ca>* on *Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:19:45 -0400*
List,
  Maybe I got myself a little worked up last night and strayed from my
point, I am not foolish enough to believe that we don‘t require CSS.  They
perform a valuable and required service to their country. I have spent many
hours hailing the EME and pay clerks when I got paid 87 cents and they
sorted it out in 15 minutes, or my tractor sat at the side of the road
smouldering.  But my point is, the support staff is in dire need of
streamlining.  We have people, like I mentioned last night, enforcing
unrequired policy, and obviously Not doing the job to the required standard,
and I have pages of examples that i won‘t bore you with.  When I say "they",
I am not referring to ALL CSS, and the "shame" does not fall on my
shoulders, it falls on the shoulders of people who have forgotton that
they‘re Soldiers and wearing pink sweaters to work on Friday is
unacceptable.
-bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
[mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of William J 
Anderson
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 8:52 AM
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
on 1/4/00 20:44,  william durrant at gunner10@sprint.ca wrote:
> At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first hand
experiences
> when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
> clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
> Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
> serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton that.
NDHQ‘s
> main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and this way
of
> thinking has been passed down to the individual units.
It‘s funny. I spent the last 3 of  my 32 years service at NDHQ. Directorate
or Combat Mobility, Directorate or Personnel Planning and then on the 17th
floor or the ‘ivory tower‘ at the Land Staff. I searched all of the
paperwork and tried hard to think of a time when, I read or heard anyone
tell me that I was posted there to justify and maintain the existence of
NDHQ. I did hear lots about supporting the ‘sharp end‘ and forget about
catching your bus in the evening to make it home in time for supper. I did
see young combats arms Captains, who would be much happier in a platoon or
company, work long hours to insure the gortex kit was tested and fielded in
time for an operation. I saw career managers burn the midnight oil to get
Cpl Bloggins posted nearer his dying mother. I also saw both civilian
contractors and soldiers pulling hard as a team in order to rotate a unit
out of Bosnia without passing that logistical nightmare down to the frazzled
HQ in theatre.
Everyone has a job. The greasy looking cook who flips eggs in the rain, the
sexy looking hygienist who cleans your teeth in the back of a truck in
Haiti, the grunt piling sandbags around an OP, and yes, god forbid the
‘paper pushers in NDHQ. They are a truly professional lot! They don‘t bitch
and they don‘t whine! They don‘t point fingers and say ‘I work harder than
he does‘ They just get on with the task at hand.
I started at the rank of Craftman Apprentice. Ask around, that is about as
low as one could start. I made it to the dizzy rank of CWO. Some skill and
of course a bit of luck That coupled with the fact that I outlived most of
the people that I pissed off. Your comments about NNHQ and the two stories
about Reserve Units won‘t start a fight. I do, however, take offence when
somebody says that my 50-80 hour weeks at NDHQ made me self serving! Shame
on you Bill.
arte et marte
andy sends
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"william durrant" <gunner10@sprint.ca>* on *Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:25:31 -0400*
P.S.
 the "I do so work hard" comments have been thrown in my direction before
and it just doesn‘t hold water.  I‘ve seen first hand what is happening to
the clerical side of the CF and I fight against it every day.
-bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
[mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of william durrant
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 1:20 PM
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: RE: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
List,
  Maybe I got myself a little worked up last night and strayed from my
point, I am not foolish enough to believe that we don‘t require CSS.  They
perform a valuable and required service to their country. I have spent many
hours hailing the EME and pay clerks when I got paid 87 cents and they
sorted it out in 15 minutes, or my tractor sat at the side of the road
smouldering.  But my point is, the support staff is in dire need of
streamlining.  We have people, like I mentioned last night, enforcing
unrequired policy, and obviously Not doing the job to the required standard,
and I have pages of examples that i won‘t bore you with.  When I say "they",
I am not referring to ALL CSS, and the "shame" does not fall on my
shoulders, it falls on the shoulders of people who have forgotton that
they‘re Soldiers and wearing pink sweaters to work on Friday is
unacceptable.
-bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
[mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of William J 
Anderson
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 8:52 AM
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
on 1/4/00 20:44,  william durrant at gunner10@sprint.ca wrote:
> At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first hand
experiences
> when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
> clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
> Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
> serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton that.
NDHQ‘s
> main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and this way
of
> thinking has been passed down to the individual units.
It‘s funny. I spent the last 3 of  my 32 years service at NDHQ. Directorate
or Combat Mobility, Directorate or Personnel Planning and then on the 17th
floor or the ‘ivory tower‘ at the Land Staff. I searched all of the
paperwork and tried hard to think of a time when, I read or heard anyone
tell me that I was posted there to justify and maintain the existence of
NDHQ. I did hear lots about supporting the ‘sharp end‘ and forget about
catching your bus in the evening to make it home in time for supper. I did
see young combats arms Captains, who would be much happier in a platoon or
company, work long hours to insure the gortex kit was tested and fielded in
time for an operation. I saw career managers burn the midnight oil to get
Cpl Bloggins posted nearer his dying mother. I also saw both civilian
contractors and soldiers pulling hard as a team in order to rotate a unit
out of Bosnia without passing that logistical nightmare down to the frazzled
HQ in theatre.
Everyone has a job. The greasy looking cook who flips eggs in the rain, the
sexy looking hygienist who cleans your teeth in the back of a truck in
Haiti, the grunt piling sandbags around an OP, and yes, god forbid the
‘paper pushers in NDHQ. They are a truly professional lot! They don‘t bitch
and they don‘t whine! They don‘t point fingers and say ‘I work harder than
he does‘ They just get on with the task at hand.
I started at the rank of Craftman Apprentice. Ask around, that is about as
low as one could start. I made it to the dizzy rank of CWO. Some skill and
of course a bit of luck That coupled with the fact that I outlived most of
the people that I pissed off. Your comments about NNHQ and the two stories
about Reserve Units won‘t start a fight. I do, however, take offence when
somebody says that my 50-80 hour weeks at NDHQ made me self serving! Shame
on you Bill.
arte et marte
andy sends
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Gilmour" <jgilmour@atsrecruitment.com>* on *Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:08:34 -0400*
"Paper-Pushing" might be neccessary, however when the Canadian Military has
a ratio of Officers to NCO‘s unlike any other Armed Forces in the world,
there is a BIG problem !
-----Original Message-----
From: Gunner 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>Unfortunately, a military moves on paperwork..always has and always
>will.
>
>I will agree no doubt it will upset some the military CSS trades need
>a better understanding thatof customer service toward others in the
>military.  Having said that, I‘ve also got alot of respect for some CSS
>types that I‘ve met.  EMEs for example have outstanding esprit de corps
>and motivation my hats off to them.  RMS clerks on the other hand I
>find have spent too much time feeling sorry for themselves.
>
>I guess you can‘t lump all trades into one pot.  I‘ve met good Reg F and
>bad Reg F, good Res F and bad Res F....same with Inf, Armd, Arty
>although I have to admit most are really good! :
>
>I don‘t know of the incidents you mention, however, depending on your
>rank you may simply not know what‘s gone on behind the scenes...for
>example, if the CO of the unit was reprimanded, I would hope it didn‘t
>get publized on the armoury floor.
>
>Finally, your comments about your full-time staff at your armoury.  I
>went through a similar phase as you are when I was a part timer.  I was
>upset when we the gun detachment were trying to get ready for an
>exercise and the full time staff were going home to have supper with
>their families.  You have to remember that their job is to keep the unit
>running on a day to day basis, whereas yours is a part-time job.  Their
>full time job allows them time for PT, CTO for working parade nights and
>weekends. When you show up for a parade, you are being paid extra
>compensation for being there.  Your full-time staff aren‘t.
>
>Our military system is a frustrating one, but don‘t take it out on NDHQ,
>or the RMS clerks in your unit.  Your full time staff probably feel
>under appreciated!
>
>Gunner sends.....
>
>william durrant wrote:
>>
>> List,
>> At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to share my first hand
experiences
>> when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t argue the fact that pay,
>> clothing, food, medical are important and required functions within The
>> Forces...But, the bottom line is that service and support only exists to
>> serve and support the combat arms.  I think we have forgotton that.
NDHQ‘s
>> main function is to justify and maintain it‘s own existance and this way
of
>> thinking has been passed down to the individual units. The CF spends more
>> money on enforcing "policy", diversity training, SHARP training, and
>> civilian contracters than we do on training.  The CF is so restricted
>> especially the reserves when it comes to training that sometimes it is
not
>> even worth doing.
>> A couple of first hand examples....
>> 1.  Members of a reserve army unit conduct unauthorized training in
civilian
>> clothing, with weapons, in an urban area, without contacting brigade or
the
>> civilian authorities.  Obviously, this contadicts about 300 references
from
>> the QRO‘s.  So, the action to be taken is already provided for....charge
>> everyone directly or indirectly involved and punish them with all the
might
>> of the NDA....But, of course, this is not what happened. instead, Brigade
HQ
>> issued a policy that every unit in the Brigade must file a request for
ANY
>> TRAINING TO BE CONDUCTED OFF ARMOURY PROPERTY.  This policy alone will
>> produce 1000‘s of hours per year of paperwork per unit. not to mention
the
>> clerks at HQ who have to deal with it all.
>> 2.  Members of a reserve army unit, while conducting a range, without
>> authorization, fire their weapons at unautorized targets outside the
>> autorized arcs of fire during silent hours.  Again,  There are already
rules
>> and consequences for their actions, however, instead of employing these
>> options, Brigade decides to employ a civilian range warden, on overtime,
to
>> watch over all soldiers Sgt‘s, Major‘s, Colonels when they are using
the
>> range.
>> When I hear about how much more important it is to pay all these people
to
>> do NOTHING than it is to preserve the proud traditions of combat arms
units,
>> it makes me want to puke.  I have daily contact with a group of RMS
>> personnel, after their leave days, "CTO" days, hockey afternoon, extended
>> lunch breaks, come to work late wednesdays, and leave early no uniform
>> fridays, they work less than 23 hours per week!!.....last week I worked
82.
>> The bottom line is that yes, they perform a vital service, but obviously,
at
>> 23 hours...there are too many.
>> for your consideration...
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>> [mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of Gordan Dundas
>> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 2:51 PM
>> To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>> Subject: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>>
>> Ahh... they already did just that if they do again if you think you‘re
>> having
>> difficulty getting paid ‘clothed .fed. downsize NDHQ.I suspect no one
will
>> like
>> what happens or does‘nt after that.
>> I suspect that while there‘s some fat there still it‘s unlikely to be cut
>> first
>> and any cutting will those who efforts affect the troops.
>>
>> John Gilmour wrote:
>>
>> > I concure with Dave Newcombe,  go one step further to say DOWNSIZE the
>> > PAPER-PUSHERS @ NDHQ !!!!
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: dave newcombe 
>> > To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
>> > Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 10:51 PM
>> > Subject: Re: They also serve who ...
>> >
>> > >What happens if we have another domestic crisis, such as Oka.  Lets
pray
>> > >that it doesn‘t happen during the annual flood season, or during the
turn
>> > >around time for units deploying on U.N. missions.  We barely had
enough
>> > >combat troops to deploy during the Oka crisis.  We still had plenty of
>> > staff
>> > >at N.D.H.Q., taking their early Fridays, and pushing paper back and
>> forth.
>> > >We need to make our Armed services less bound to desks and paper
trails.
>> > If
>> > >we plan on making our reserve units more efficient, then couldn‘t we
>> spend
>> > >that much energy making our headquarters at all levels more stream
lined.
>> > I
>> > >for one don‘t believe that there is any place on any base for people
who
>> > are
>> > >not in uniform.
>> > >How many Army Officers of all classifications are there out there in
>> > >administrative only roles, vs, Officers in Combat formations. this
>> carries
>> > >down to other ranks as well
>> > >We need to learn to do more soldiering and less papering.
>> > >We need leaders to lead men in combat units, not make coffee for
higher
>> > >ranks at command H.Q.s
>> > >
>> > >I think I‘ll switch to de-caf this week.
>> > >----- Original Message -----
>> > >From: "Gordan Dundas" 
>> > >To: 
>> > >Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 8:18 AM
>> > >Subject: Re: They also serve who ...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Am I missing something ?
>> > >>  I say this because I ‘ve got an idea that is  probably quite stupid
>> but
>> > >> here goes .Instead of  adding more service units to the roster why
>> don‘t
>> > >we
>> > >> just expand the the current ones?
>> > >>  Now I know the reason for this restructuring is an attempt by NDHQ
to
>> > >> basically get something for nothing.ie: a transport unit shouldn‘t
cost
>> > >> anymore to run then a rifle coy.and a transport plt. is probably
more
>> > >useful
>> > >> to the reg. force then a militia rifle coy.
>> > >> This is I‘m afraid going to further erode what good feeling
reservists
>> > >have
>> > >> toward their reg force brethren and reinforce the feeling that all
>> > >> reservists are viewed as expendable cannon fodder.Or at least as a
>> source
>> > >of
>> > >> warm bodies.
>> > >>  To be be honest from this lowly civvies point of view it is the reg
>> > force
>> > >> that is need of restructuring  it ‘s the one that is in desperate
need
>> of
>> > >> service units.However combat arms is "sexy" combat support is‘nt.So
>> let‘s
>> > >> fob this off on the Militia.
>> > >>  The real problem isn‘t the the reserves or the reg force or even
DND
>> it
>> > >our
>> > >> political leadership who have for years ignored the sad state of the
>> > Armed
>> > >> Forces.The armed force have been extremely lucky that we‘ve had had
a
>> > very
>> > >> large deployment that has lasted more then 90 days.
>> > >> By this I mean 5-8000 troops deployed during the Red river flood and
>> the
>> > >ice
>> > >> storms the following year.what would have happened if the Winnipeg
>> flood
>> > >way
>> > >> had collapsed or the Brunkild Dike given way?Or if the ice storms
and
>> > >> exterme cold weather conditions had gone on?
>> > >> In either event  they would have been followed by the collapse of
the
>> > >> Canadian Forces.This is not helped by our current leaderships desire
to
>> > >send
>> > >> troops just about everywhere on a moments notice.One begins to
suspect
>> > >that
>> > >> the Motto of the Armed Forces is "if this is tuesday,this must be
>> > >Belgium?"
>> > >>  If I‘ve been rambling it‘s the cold medication.....Honest!
>> > >> Cheers !Gordon
>> > >>
>> > >> Ian Edwards wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > I think a strong legal argument could be made against
restructuring
>> a
>> > >> > euphemism certain units. Let‘s consider the case of The Royal
Moose
>> > Jaw
>> > >> > Fusiliers to keep it neutral. For the younger readers - YES it‘s
a
>> > >> > made up name.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The RMJR has a fine history dating back to before Christ was a
Cpl.
>> It
>> > >> > raised battalions for blah, blah, blah wars. Today the "unit" IS
THE
>> > >> > REGIMENT. Or perhaps not. During WW2 the Regiment had several
>> > battalions
>> > >> > on Active Service Overseas, a battalion in the Reserve Army at
home
>> and
>> > >> > one in July 1945 at Shilo preparing to join the Canadian Army
Pacific
>> > >> > Force before the Bomb was dropped. Times got tough over in Paga
>> Pogo
>> > >> > in 1944 and the 1st Battalion was converted from Infantry to a
Postal
>> > >> > Battlion, scaring the ****  out of Hitler. it was a dirty job but
>> some
>> > >> > had to do it. When the emergency passed they reverted to Infy and
>> went
>> > >> > back to the front lines as part of the 9th Canadian Infantry
>> Division.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Change them now in the year 2000 to a Mobile Bath and Laundry
Unit?
>> > >> > Well, depends on who the "them" is. It can be argued, somewhat
>> > >> > successfully, that DND does not "own" the name RMJF. Ottawa
doesn‘t
>> own
>> > >> > the Regimental customs and traditions, doesn‘t "own" the cap badge
>> was
>> > >> > in existence before approval by a General Order, and certainly
>> doesn‘t
>> > >> > own their dress uniforms, etc, etc. or the right to wear a copy of
>> > them.
>> > >> > The Regiment is much more than just its unit, which is in essence
>> their
>> > >> > 1st Battalion only bn numbers being dropped when there is only
the
>> one
>> > >> > "unit". Legally, the RMJR Senate has the right to refuse to be
>> > >> > converted to "The 43rd Mobile Bath and Sanitation Battlion Royal
>> Moose
>> > >> > Jaw Fusiliers". The Senate has a choice. About all Ottawa can do
is
>> > >> > reduce the "unit" to nil strength and transfer the unit to the
>> > >> > Supplementary Order of Battle in reality, completing the death of
>> the
>> > >> > Regiment. The same day Ottawa can cut a piece of paper creating
The
>> > >> > 43rd Mobile Bath and Sanitation Battalion no supplementary title,
>> > thank
>> > >> > you and transfer all ranks to this new abomination for as long as
>> the
>> > >> > Old Fus‘ FORMER MEMBERS will stay. If that‘s the only game in
town,
>> > some
>> > >> > might. A few. I dunno.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The Senate has a say. For any kids still reading this far, the
>> Senate
>> > >> > is a body consisting of the former COs of the battalions and
>> perhaps
>> > a
>> > >> > few other VIPs and/or "honoraries". It‘s often incorporated under
the
>> > >> > provincial societies‘ act, and is in no way part of DND Take for
>> > >> > example "the crazy eights". In early 1957, the 8th Princess
Louise‘s
>> > >> > New Brunswick Hussars changed their name to the 8th Canadian
>> Hussars
>> > >> > Princess Louise‘s. Why? Well, first of all their regimental
senate
>> > >> > approved of the change. The change was required in order for the
>> > >> > regiment to gain a Regular Force armoured component and the name
>> > >> > change was deemed necessary by Ottawa to remove the local-only
stigma
>> > >> > within their name you can just imagine the fights that would have
>> > >> > broken out in a bar in Saskatoon if those New Brunswickers, ripe
from
>> a
>> > >> > month in Dundurn, tried to steal a local gal from the Toon Town
>> boys.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The 8CH. THEY WERE NOT THE FIRST TO BE ASKED. At least one
regiment,
>> > the
>> > >> > 1st Hussars, from London in the bush, turned down the offer,
tempting
>> > as
>> > >> > it was. I think "The Plugs" 4PLGD were also asked and declined.
The
>> > >> > 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards are no longer with us.
>> > >> > Death Before Dishonour, disbanded a few years later.
>> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> > >> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> > >> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> > >> > message body.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> > >> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> > >> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> > >> message body.
>> > >
>> > >--------------------------------------------------------
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>> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> > >message body.
>> >
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"michelle Bleasdale" <m_bleasdale@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:00:03 PDT*
John,
I‘m afraid your perception of the officer/NCO ratio is another example of 
getting excited over nothing. Our current officer/ncm ratio is not a big 
problem, nor is it "unlike any other Armed Forces in the world".
In fact, I suggest the officer/ncm ratio, like the General/troops ratio 
concern, is a red herring. It doesn‘t mean anything. Within the fighting 
structure of all services, the number of Generals/officers is better than 
many nations, particularly the U.S. I agree that we can argue whether we 
need all helicopter pilots to be officers or not, but that too may be beside 
the point. If, like the U.S. some pilots are Warrant Officers or, like in 
the U.K. some pilots are NCOs, we would still pay them a higher wage to keep 
them flying. So, the cost angle isn‘t at issue here.
If we talk about the non-fighting infrastructure and start counting officers 
who don‘t "command" troops, such as found in many non-operational 
directorates in NDHQ, it can be seen that such positions are required to run 
a modern military force at the national level. Whether you agree with that 
or not, the fact remains that those job need people trained in senior 
officer skills to make this big machine work.
How about the middle ground? Do we have more officers than needed in Brigade 
and Area headquarters? No, in fact we don‘t have enough. These headquarters 
are training institutions in their own right and we could make more use of 
them to train regular and reserve officers.
Look at many other modern national headquarters and you‘ll see that NDHQ is 
pretty slim by most standards.
Amongst all this are the many jobs that require officers pure and simple. 
For example, Directing Staff at Staff Colleges are all officers. Doctors are 
all officers...and we don‘t have enough of them. Dentists too. You see my 
point...
I mention all this simply to say that we should argue about something 
substantial and not just continue to stir up irrelevant issues.
By the way, I wasn‘t an officer. Cheers, Michelle.
>From: "John Gilmour" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:08:34 -0400
>
>"Paper-Pushing" might be neccessary, however when the Canadian Military has
>a ratio of Officers to NCO‘s unlike any other Armed Forces in the world,
>there is a BIG problem !
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Gilmour" <jgilmour@atsrecruitment.com>* on *Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:23:23 -0400*
Sorry but any numbers I‘ve ever seen would suggest that the Canadian Armed
Forces, is out of whack compared to other Western Forces, when it comes to
its number of Officers to Non-Commissioned personnel !
A lot of what is going on at NDHQ, can be contracted out to private
consultants  business .
-----Original Message-----
From: michelle Bleasdale 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>John,
>
>I‘m afraid your perception of the officer/NCO ratio is another example of
>getting excited over nothing. Our current officer/ncm ratio is not a big
>problem, nor is it "unlike any other Armed Forces in the world".
>
>In fact, I suggest the officer/ncm ratio, like the General/troops ratio
>concern, is a red herring. It doesn‘t mean anything. Within the fighting
>structure of all services, the number of Generals/officers is better than
>many nations, particularly the U.S. I agree that we can argue whether we
>need all helicopter pilots to be officers or not, but that too may be
beside
>the point. If, like the U.S. some pilots are Warrant Officers or, like in
>the U.K. some pilots are NCOs, we would still pay them a higher wage to
keep
>them flying. So, the cost angle isn‘t at issue here.
>
>If we talk about the non-fighting infrastructure and start counting
officers
>who don‘t "command" troops, such as found in many non-operational
>directorates in NDHQ, it can be seen that such positions are required to
run
>a modern military force at the national level. Whether you agree with that
>or not, the fact remains that those job need people trained in senior
>officer skills to make this big machine work.
>
>How about the middle ground? Do we have more officers than needed in
Brigade
>and Area headquarters? No, in fact we don‘t have enough. These headquarters
>are training institutions in their own right and we could make more use of
>them to train regular and reserve officers.
>
>Look at many other modern national headquarters and you‘ll see that NDHQ is
>pretty slim by most standards.
>
>Amongst all this are the many jobs that require officers pure and simple.
>For example, Directing Staff at Staff Colleges are all officers. Doctors
are
>all officers...and we don‘t have enough of them. Dentists too. You see my
>point...
>
>I mention all this simply to say that we should argue about something
>substantial and not just continue to stir up irrelevant issues.
>
>By the way, I wasn‘t an officer. Cheers, Michelle.
>
>>From: "John Gilmour" 
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:08:34 -0400
>>
>>"Paper-Pushing" might be neccessary, however when the Canadian Military
has
>>a ratio of Officers to NCO‘s unlike any other Armed Forces in the world,
>>there is a BIG problem !
>>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Don Pearson" <djpearson@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:29:44 PDT*
I think Michelle has a point. Our numbers are not out of whack because no 
one knows what is "in whack". On what grounds do you assume that our numbers 
have to be anywhere near the same as other Western countries? It is in the 
nature of headquarters that they must be of a "critical mass" size to 
function, no matter what size of force they run. A company headquarters 
doesn‘t get smaller when there are only two platoons. It also doesn‘t get 
larger when a troop of tanks is attached. NDHQ needs a "critical mass" to 
function too. Some think it‘s below that level now.
Many functions are contracted out in NDHQ already, as they are in many 
bases. I think you forget that NDHQ is not solely a military headquarters. 
It is a government ministry, from where the Minister exercises his 
authority. We all agree this is not just any Ministry. This is national 
defence and I for one think we need professional service men and women 
running our military affairs there. I don‘t for a minute want NDOC run by 
contract personnel. Nor do I want them issuing orders to our troops.
Officer/ncm ratio arguments are pointless.
Don P.
>From: "John Gilmour" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:23:23 -0400
>
>Sorry but any numbers I‘ve ever seen would suggest that the Canadian Armed
>Forces, is out of whack compared to other Western Forces, when it comes to
>its number of Officers to Non-Commissioned personnel !
>A lot of what is going on at NDHQ, can be contracted out to private
>consultants  business .
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: michelle Bleasdale 
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
>Date: Monday, April 03, 2000 1:15 PM
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
>
>
> >John,
> >
> >I‘m afraid your perception of the officer/NCO ratio is another example of
> >getting excited over nothing. Our current officer/ncm ratio is not a big
> >problem, nor is it "unlike any other Armed Forces in the world".
> >
> >In fact, I suggest the officer/ncm ratio, like the General/troops ratio
> >concern, is a red herring. It doesn‘t mean anything. Within the fighting
> >structure of all services, the number of Generals/officers is better than
> >many nations, particularly the U.S. I agree that we can argue whether we
> >need all helicopter pilots to be officers or not, but that too may be
>beside
> >the point. If, like the U.S. some pilots are Warrant Officers or, like in
> >the U.K. some pilots are NCOs, we would still pay them a higher wage to
>keep
> >them flying. So, the cost angle isn‘t at issue here.
> >
> >If we talk about the non-fighting infrastructure and start counting
>officers
> >who don‘t "command" troops, such as found in many non-operational
> >directorates in NDHQ, it can be seen that such positions are required to
>run
> >a modern military force at the national level. Whether you agree with 
>that
> >or not, the fact remains that those job need people trained in senior
> >officer skills to make this big machine work.
> >
> >How about the middle ground? Do we have more officers than needed in
>Brigade
> >and Area headquarters? No, in fact we don‘t have enough. These 
>headquarters
> >are training institutions in their own right and we could make more use 
>of
> >them to train regular and reserve officers.
> >
> >Look at many other modern national headquarters and you‘ll see that NDHQ 
>is
> >pretty slim by most standards.
> >
> >Amongst all this are the many jobs that require officers pure and simple.
> >For example, Directing Staff at Staff Colleges are all officers. Doctors
>are
> >all officers...and we don‘t have enough of them. Dentists too. You see my
> >point...
> >
> >I mention all this simply to say that we should argue about something
> >substantial and not just continue to stir up irrelevant issues.
> >
> >By the way, I wasn‘t an officer. Cheers, Michelle.
> >
> >>From: "John Gilmour" 
> >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >>To: 
> >>Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
> >>Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:08:34 -0400
> >>
> >>"Paper-Pushing" might be neccessary, however when the Canadian Military
>has
> >>a ratio of Officers to NCO‘s unlike any other Armed Forces in the world,
> >>there is a BIG problem !
> >>
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Craig Ozolins <death_106@yahoo.com>* on *Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:27:04 -0700 (PDT)*
hello people this sucks 
--- Larry MacDonald  wrote:
> Well said.  I too had the opportunity to serve at
> NDHQ.  I used to marvel at
> the long and probably undocumented hours that staff
> would work to ensure the
> current tasking or project proceeded as planned.  It
> was through such
> dedication that the system was made to work.
> 
> I do not regret the time spent at NDHQ.  It provided
> a better insight into
> the organization and a knowledge base that could be
> put to practical use
> later.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Larry MacDonald
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > [mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of
> William J 
> > Anderson
> > Sent: April 2, 2000 8:52 AM
> > To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject: Re: [Fwd: They also serve who ...]
> >
> >
> > on 1/4/00 20:44,  william durrant at
> gunner10@sprint.ca wrote:
> >
> > > At the risk of starting a fight, I‘d like to
> share my first
> > hand experiences
> > > when it comes to "the paper pushers".  I don‘t
> argue the fact that pay,
> > > clothing, food, medical are important and
> required functions within The
> > > Forces...But, the bottom line is that service
> and support only exists to
> > > serve and support the combat arms.  I think we
> have forgotton
> > that.  NDHQ‘s
> > > main function is to justify and maintain it‘s
> own existance and
> > this way of
> > > thinking has been passed down to the individual
> units.
> >
> > It‘s funny. I spent the last 3 of  my 32 years
> service at NDHQ.
> > Directorate
> > or Combat Mobility, Directorate or Personnel
> Planning and then on the 17th
> > floor or the ‘ivory tower‘ at the Land Staff. I
> searched all of the
> > paperwork and tried hard to think of a time when,
> I read or heard anyone
> > tell me that I was posted there to justify and
> maintain the existence of
> > NDHQ. I did hear lots about supporting the ‘sharp
> end‘ and forget about
> > catching your bus in the evening to make it home
> in time for supper. I did
> > see young combats arms Captains, who would be much
> happier in a platoon or
> > company, work long hours to insure the gortex kit
> was tested and
> > fielded in
> > time for an operation. I saw career managers burn
> the midnight oil to get
> > Cpl Bloggins posted nearer his dying mother. I
> also saw both civilian
> > contractors and soldiers pulling hard as a team in
> order to rotate a unit
> > out of Bosnia without passing that logistical
> nightmare down to
> > the frazzled
> > HQ in theatre.
> >
> > Everyone has a job. The greasy looking cook who
> flips eggs in the
> > rain, the
> > sexy looking hygienist who cleans your teeth in
> the back of a truck in
> > Haiti, the grunt piling sandbags around an OP, and
> yes, god forbid the
> > ‘paper pushers in NDHQ. They are a truly
> professional lot! They
> > don‘t bitch
> > and they don‘t whine! They don‘t point fingers and
> say ‘I work harder than
> > he does‘ They just get on with the task at hand.
> >
> > I started at the rank of Craftman Apprentice. Ask
> around, that is about as
> > low as one could start. I made it to the dizzy
> rank of CWO. Some skill and
> > of course a bit of luck That coupled with the fact
> that I outlived most of
> > the people that I pissed off. Your comments about
> NNHQ and the two stories
> > about Reserve Units won‘t start a fight. I do,
> however, take offence when
> > somebody says that my 50-80 hour weeks at NDHQ
> made me self serving! Shame
> > on you Bill.
> >
> > arte et marte
> > andy sends
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account
> you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
> 
>
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