# Help! My Class-B is being eliminated in favour of civilians!



## Shrek1985 (28 Oct 2016)

So I found out yesterday that instead of a longer contract, my job is being civilianized.

I should get an 89 extension to get me through the holidays, but after that nothing is certain; probably not getting the 6 month contract that was on their radar until yesterday.

Issue is this: They wanted 3-year uniformed contracts. Someone in a big city (Ottawa? Toronto?) said no: Civilians are what you get.

It's being done through Temporary Help Services – Ontario Region. Which depending on how I read the email is either the people we get our civilians from or just another front that the paperwork passes through to hire from a temp agency.

I had a lot of difficulty finding a *maybe* working email address, but I already sent an email asking how I join.

I have no idea how I'd find out what temp agency to join if they were going that route and then; how do I make sure I have a shot at the job? I have friends who worked for these agencies and they are highly political and rife with nepotism. I can't see how a guy walking in off the street would ever get a shot at a 48 week contract, no matter that I am already trained and experienced for the position.

So ideas on that front (join Temporary Help Services – Ontario Region? Get a temp agency to hire me and give me one of the slots?) would be welcome.

Do I have any grounds for redress? CF Ombudsman? Member of Parliament? No one promised me anything, but all along they've made it seem like it was going to happen. Literally last week when someone who'd worked here before as a civilian was snooping around, I even asked about if they would get civilians in here again and they told me flat-out no, it would never happen.

My job prospects are basically non-existent. My CT is frozen, my VOT is looking unlikely and there may not be and currently are no other REOs for my rank in the area. This is the best job I've ever had, I'm good at it and I've worked hard to be good at it. I don't want to loose it. But I only got it because someone tipped me off about it and put in a good word for me. Previous to that I was plugging away at the job hunting game and the score (yes I kept score) was 114 to nothing when I got this job and that was after a serious resume makeover and workshop from employment Canada. Before that all my job hunting experiences were similar. I've been in the army 12.5 years and worked for Corps of Commissionaires; I can't convince anyone else to look at me and yes; I've applied to flip burgers.

But I'm not looking for job hunting advice. I'm just putting that out there to drive home how backed into a corner I am.

Thanks for your time.


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## Haggis (28 Oct 2016)

Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> I can't see how a guy walking in off the street would ever get a shot at a 48 week contract, no matter that I am already trained and experienced for the position.



Nepotism aside, these companies survive on providing "right fit" canddates for the jobs they bid on.  Go for it.


			
				Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> Do I have any grounds for redress? CF Ombudsman? Member of Parliament? No one promised me anything, but all along they've made it seem like it was going to happen.



Not a chance.  Any Class B contract can be terminated with 30 days notice by either party for any reason. In that you received an 89 day extension is an act of good faith by the department.



			
				Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> My job prospects are basically non-existent. My CT is frozen, my VOT is looking unlikely and there may not be and currently are no other REOs for my rank in the area. ..... I've been in the army 12.5 years and worked for Corps of Commissionaires; I can't convince anyone else to look at me and yes; I've applied to flip burgers.



I'd say not.  Lots of police and other law enforcement agencies are hiring like gangbusters.  Look into them.  With both CAF and Commissionaire experience, you'd likely be _a bit _more competitive than a recent high school/college graduate.


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## mariomike (28 Oct 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Any Class B contract can be terminated with 30 days notice by either party for any reason.



OP: "Where the hell did this class B employment freeze come from and why the hell were we given no warning.
I hope whoever thought this up is forced to feed their family, and pay their mortgage with no pay check for a month!"
27 pages of Class B horror stories,
http://army.ca/forums/threads/88898.0.html



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> Lots of police and other law enforcement agencies are hiring like gangbusters.  Look into them.  With both CAF and Commissionaire experience, you'd likely be _a bit _more competitive than a recent high school/college graduate.



More regarding that,

CF experience relevant to RCMP, civ policing? (merged) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/32733.0
9 pages.


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## DAA (28 Oct 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Nepotism aside, these companies survive on providing "right fit" canddates for the jobs they bid on.  Go for it.
> Not a chance.  Any Class B contract can be terminated with 30 days notice by either party for any reason. In that you received an 89 day extension is an act of good faith by the department.



I have to agree on the comments made by Haggis above.  As mentioned, "any" Class B contract, regardless of duration, can be terminated with 30 days written notice, no matter what anyone promised you.

As far as the hiring of civlian employees through local Temp Agencies, there are screening requirements and varying restrictions that come into play for this.  First off, Regional Temp Help contracts are mainly used to fill short term needs and cannot be any longer than 20 weeks in duration (except for the NCR Region which is 48 weeks) and you can only have an employee of the regional Temp Help Agency on the payroll for a max of 20 weeks per calendar year, anything greater and PSAC will become involved.  The hiring of Temp Help is based on the Classification assigned to the position and the Rate of Pay is assigned by the Temp Help Agency.  Nevertheless, there is a "Contracting" process in place for this, so in areas where there are multiple Temp Help Agencies to choose from, it becomes a bidding issue.

http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/adt-vrf/rprt/2010/th-at/index-eng.htm#tab1

Simply put, you would need to "register" with the local Temp Help Agency and go through their screening processes (Aptitude Testing and Interviews, etc, etc).  Keep your fingers crossed that you registered with the Agency who is awarded the contract and that they in turn "refer" you for the job in question.  Temp Help Agencies awarded contracts, merely "refer" employees to the Department/Company where they will work, who in turn decide which employee(s) to take.   Again, if this is happening outside the NCR, then you are looking at "no more" than 20 weeks of employment.

Good luck!


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## Remius (28 Oct 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> I have to agree on the comments made by Haggis above.  As mentioned, "any" Class B contract, regardless of duration, can be terminated with 30 days written notice, no matter what anyone promised you.



The best thing that ever happened to me was having my Class b terminated (and it was terminated with a year and half to go) and 30 days notice due to budget issues.  Landed a 1 year contract elsewhere to pay bills but spent a lot of that time finding more suitable and stable employment away from the class B gravy train.  I get paid for my class a work now which is a bonus.  

Class B can be great and provided me with a wealth of experience that I apply at my civy job constantly but never think for a moment that a career class b is the norm.  Some manage it but it shouldn't be expected.  As great as they are, they can sometimes land up like the OP's situation or mine.


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## DAA (28 Oct 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> The best thing that ever happened to me was having my Class b terminated (and it was terminated with a year and half to go) and 30 days notice due to budget issues.  Landed a 1 year contract elsewhere to pay bills but spent a lot of that time finding more suitable and stable employment away from the class B gravy train.  I get paid for my class a work now which is a bonus.
> 
> Class B can be great and provided me with a wealth of experience that I apply at my civy job constantly but never think for a moment that a career class b is the norm.  Some manage it but it shouldn't be expected.  As great as they are, they can sometimes land up like the OP's situation or mine.



Like a Flag Officer said in a townhall briefing one day "Class B service is not a career, so don't expect it to be."  The PRECS review slashed hundreds if not thousands of full-time Class B positions, most of which were created to backfill vacancies or support operational tempo of the day.  Class B (Permanent) became sort of the "drug" of choice and resulted in a dependancy on creating and using these positions to augment Regular Force manning levels, specifically where dedicated Reg F positions didn't exist.  On one side of the coin the CAF stripped Res F Units of their qualified personnel but on the other side of the coin these people gained some valued knowledge and skills that they could eventually take back to their Units.  There were also those who viewed this as just another way to employ retired Reg F members who wished to continue their military employment but not as a Reg F member.

Class B does serve a purpose but somewhere along the lines, things got carried away.


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## Haggis (28 Oct 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> Class B (Permanent) became sort of the "drug" of choice and resulted in a dependancy on creating and using these positions to augment Regular Force manning levels,


 and overcome the glacially slow civilian hiring process, thus getting a working butt in the chair much sooner 





			
				DAA said:
			
		

> specifically where dedicated Reg F positions didn't exist.


 thereby avoiding having to do an establishment change.



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> On one side of the coin the CAF stripped Res F Units of their qualified personnel but on the other side of the coin these people gained some valued knowledge and skills that they could eventually take back to their Units.


  The institutional continuity provided by the Class B's provided stability in the face of rapid and frequent Reg F personnel changes needed to sustain ops in the late years of the past decade and early years of this one. 



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> Class B does serve a purpose but somewhere along the lines, things got carried away.


.  True that, and it's been done to death elsewhere on this forum.


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## chrisf (28 Oct 2016)

A thought, in the event you're one of many many many folks who got sucked into the long term class-b trap young, with no education other than highschool...

If you can afford it, may be a blessing in disguise, go back to school... service Canada is usually willing to extend an EI claim while you're in school, and may even be willing to subsidize your tuition while you're there (Will require application before hand)


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## DAA (28 Oct 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> and overcome the glacially slow civilian hiring process, thus getting a working butt in the chair much sooner  thereby avoiding having to do an establishment change.
> 
> The institutional continuity provided by the Class B's provided stability in the face of rapid and frequent Reg F personnel changes needed to sustain ops in the late years of the past decade and early years of this one.



Can't hire civilians, where no position exists and establishment changes are part of the Business Planning process of the Unit and need to be done years in advance.  People just don't get that, until the last minute.

I mildly agree with your comment about institutional continutiy and Class B providing "stability", but mostly when it's in a surge capacity dedicated to a specifc operational mission.  Mind you, there are some instances where continuity and long term employment in a specific positions does have benefits but even those incumbents come to an end.  

Anyone can be replaced at any time and no one is irreplaceable.  That's the magic of the CAF.


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## Shrek1985 (29 Oct 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Not a chance.  Any Class B contract can be terminated with 30 days notice by either party for any reason. In that you received an 89 day extension is an act of good faith by the department.
> 
> I'd say not.  Lots of police and other law enforcement agencies are hiring like gangbusters.  Look into them.  With both CAF and Commissionaire experience, you'd likely be _a bit _more competitive than a recent high school/college graduate.



I'm not sure.

I've known my contract that I'm on now was ending yesterday since day 1 of the contract. But I was assured first that following that I would come back in after the weekend and get a 3 year contract. Then it became a 6 month when that didn't materialize (Sorta what *THIS* is; the response to their request for a 3 year contract) and when the big city folk who approve 6 month contracts (Toronto?) didn't get back to use about *THAT*, it became an 89 day, until late thursday/early friday when it became "Come in and sign in Class-A.

Not sure if this covers the notice requirement or not, but it really messes up my life. Putting me on class-A now cuts my pay in half and slaps a 4-week (in practice) delay on it. Never mind that I've been led to believe this was happening so long and so fervently that I am actually house hunting at the moment.

Forget about policing. Not in my area. We're in a hiring freeze now and there are a literal stack of more qualified guys in just my unit trying to be cops who are ahead of me in that line. The hiring issue has actually been a major news item in the papers here the last bit.


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## Shrek1985 (29 Oct 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> As far as the hiring of civlian employees through local Temp Agencies, there are screening requirements and varying restrictions that come into play for this.  First off, Regional Temp Help contracts are mainly used to fill short term needs and cannot be any longer than 20 weeks in duration (except for the NCR Region which is 48 weeks) and you can only have an employee of the regional Temp Help Agency on the payroll for a max of 20 weeks per calendar year, anything greater and PSAC will become involved.  The hiring of Temp Help is based on the Classification assigned to the position and the Rate of Pay is assigned by the Temp Help Agency.  Nevertheless, there is a "Contracting" process in place for this, so in areas where there are multiple Temp Help Agencies to choose from, it becomes a bidding issue.
> 
> http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/adt-vrf/rprt/2010/th-at/index-eng.htm#tab1
> 
> ...



This is what kinda gives me hope; the demand is real in our shop (Clothing). We're barely managing with four class-B and 2 class-A guys who come in twice a week for the day. We were keeping pace under a huge backlog of work with 6 Class-B. Me and another guy are affected by this (He just bought a house), if they loose us the shop fails, which cripples all the courses they have running right now.

The army I know couldn't manage to organize this from a standing start. Even giving me an 89-day on monday doesn't sound like they could get these guys in by the time it's done. Class-A? forget about it; that's too much of a hit. And they are trading two guys who know the job for two who don't know anything as of their day-1, whatever that is. But I have zero hard data right now.

And THIS; I'm confused about; WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? A google search led me to an uninformative govt website and naturally nothing before end of business friday from the email I sent. Do I register with this government agency? Just any local Temp company? We're rushing towards being a post-industrial city, so the local Temps are crooks because they can afford to be. I'd expect a significant pay cut there are well. 

I'd assume we're outside the NCR (SW Ontario), but the email said 48 weeks, so who knows.


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## Shrek1985 (29 Oct 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> and overcome the glacially slow civilian hiring process, thus getting a working butt in the chair much sooner  thereby avoiding having to do an establishment change.
> The institutional continuity provided by the Class B's provided stability in the face of rapid and frequent Reg F personnel changes needed to sustain ops in the late years of the past decade and early years of this one.
> .  True that, and it's been done to death elsewhere on this forum.



I think they should have at least warned me this was a possibility. I asked last week about Civilians and I was told directly; "No chance". It wasn't a case of work or no work, it was what length of contract they could get me.

It was explained to me the draw of civilians *was* continuity. Which I don't get when they start with a temp agency and 20-48 week contracts. Give me a 3-year contract; my job prospects are nil. I'm not going anywhere.

Is this because I want to support OP: Reinforcement and maybe go on tour if I can get one? Are they worried about that? Give me a 3-year contract and I'll pull my name. Right now my COC is offering nothing but maybes; I'd take a sure thing in a heartbeat.


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## Shrek1985 (29 Oct 2016)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> A thought, in the event you're one of many many many folks who got sucked into the long term class-b trap young, with no education other than highschool...
> 
> If you can afford it, may be a blessing in disguise, go back to school... service Canada is usually willing to extend an EI claim while you're in school, and may even be willing to subsidize your tuition while you're there (Will require application before hand)



I have my BA, but it's in social sciences, so it's worthless. Don't get me wrong; I did my best, but I wasn't smart enough to go into STEM and I love history. I got my degree in "military sciences" with an aim to getting my commission and following my interests (was assured it would work by the education advisor). That door got slammed hard in my face with my first CT, followed by the freeze of my second CT a few weeks ago after being assured they were hurting and looking for people. At current I am waiting to hear back on a VOT to the same trade, which requires a degree. Looking at three weeks and counting of radio silence on that email in the face of several reminders, following some pretty dim outlooks from the guy I was dealing with to this point.

I'd have loved Class-B young, but up till now my work experience with the army was serial instructor. I taught 27 courses and not one more. I'll flip burgers. I'll sell everything I own and starve. But I will never teach for the Canadian Army as an NCO again. That's the only thing I am unwilling to do for work.

I could never go back to school. The depression almost killed me the last time (I'm an introvert and school is the worst environment for me to be in. When I was in school, I kept all my exercises marked on the calendar and used to do a day by day count down till I could get away from school for couple days). Right now, I sincerely regret that I went to school, rather than going on tour; at least then I'd have that going for my career and have done my part.

I live in a school town, so all my education qualifies me for is to work at starbucks and I'm competing for those jobs with younger, educated people. Civilian job prospects are pretty dim for me. Before getting this job, I put in more than a hundred resumes and didn't get so much as a phone call and I put in for everything but sales.


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## catalyst (29 Oct 2016)

Don't forget that as a member of the CAF with at least three years service, you have access to internal federal public service jobs. Might be something to check out as well.


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## dimsum (29 Oct 2016)

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> Don't forget that as a member of the CAF with at least three years service, you have access to internal federal public service jobs. Might be something to check out as well.



Happy to be corrected, but I thought it was 3 years of Reg F service?


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## mariomike (29 Oct 2016)

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> Don't forget that as a member of the CAF with at least three years service, you have access to internal federal public service jobs.





			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> Happy to be corrected, but I thought it was 3 years of Reg F service?



More on that,

Priority Hiring in Fed Pub Svc (info, news, hints, tips, etc. - merged) 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/41696.0;nowap
7 pages.


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## catalyst (29 Oct 2016)

Nope - three years "service"  - doesn't refer to RegF or ResF (or PRes or COATS). 

3. (1) The portion of subsection 35.1(1) of the Act before paragraph (b) is replaced by the following:

Marginal note:Mobility — member of Canadian Forces

35.1 (1) A member of the Canadian Forces who has accumulated at least three years of service and is not employed in the public service for an indeterminate period

(a) may participate in an advertised internal appointment process; and


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## mariomike (29 Oct 2016)

For reference,

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/annualstatutes/2015_5/FullText.html?wbdisable=true


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## catalyst (29 Oct 2016)

You're looking at a different set of legislation. That legislation refers to veterans (those who have done three years). 

Anways, to the OP - if you find something that interests you down that route, drop me a line and I'll be happy to help.


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## Shrek1985 (5 Nov 2016)

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> You're looking at a different set of legislation. That legislation refers to veterans (those who have done three years).
> 
> Anways, to the OP - if you find something that interests you down that route, drop me a line and I'll be happy to help.



Thanks, I am looking at everything right now. Getting seriously cold-shouldered from employment ontario.


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