# Go figure.  Who would have thought the military would take away our money.



## THEONE (4 Jul 2006)

So after all this time of service, the military/government has finally found a way to say thank you for serving.  They now make it tax free when serving overseas.  Sounds good doesn't it.  But just like everything else, there's always a catch.  It's more to make us look one way while they start to take away something in another direction.  Yes.  I'm a reservist.  And no, I'm not in this for the money.  Although without it I would lose my home and everything I've worked so hard for in the last 10 years.  We have been away from home now for 6 months training to deploy to Afghanistan.  Because of being away from home we receive an allowance.  Which helps us in many ways.  Almost everyone travels home on weekends to see there family.  And that money covers your fuel there and back.  For some of us its more then 14 hour round trip.  But instead of giving us that money.  They have decided to place us under the "posted" category.  Now unlike a soldier who is posted.  Our families do not live near us.  And we cannot go home to them every night.  All I know is that I'm still happy I paid all that money to go see my family, but it really sucks that the military/government has decided that we are not good enough for that allowance.  And not too put down regular force at all.  I mean.  If I knew I was going to lose that money from the start.  I would have defiantly moved my family up there for the 6 months and fought for all the benefits that I should have been entitled to.


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## paracowboy (4 Jul 2006)

nice title.


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## HItorMiss (4 Jul 2006)

THEONE

To what entitlements are you reffering to that have been taken away? how have you been posted when your "home" unit is still the unit from which you came.

Please your post need's some clarity so that the problem can be fully addressed.


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## COBRA-6 (4 Jul 2006)

+1

are you talking about TD?


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## meni0n (4 Jul 2006)

Uh, I make 8 hour round trip most weekends and don't expect for the military to pay for it. Why do you?


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## 392 (4 Jul 2006)

I think he's referring to "Attach Posted", which, if I recall correctly, means no, you are not entitled to anything extra. If you were sent to Pet as Attach Posted, and you agreed to that by accepting the tasking, well there's not much for you to complain about. If you don't like it, you shouldn't have accepted it.

I'm not saying it's right, and I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it's the conditions you accepted, so you have no where to look.

BTW, even if you moved your family up there while being attach posted, you still aren't entitled to anything extra. Of course, I'm no clerk, so hopefully one steps up to bat here....


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## Michael OLeary (4 Jul 2006)

This message deals with entitlements while attached posted:
http://www.forces.ca/dgcb/dcba/pdf/Clarification_e.PDF

Note, however, that we do not have all the facts.  We do not know the precise status under which THEONE is currently with their unit on task.  We do not know what agreements or waivers may have been signed; even if they weren't fully read and understood at the time.  We do not know what allowances were being received before this rant, or what he may now be getting, or what further changes to his benefits will occur as his status evolves with respect to the mission.

Any advice offered at this time is speculative without the ability to examine his file and see what basis for entitlements actually exists.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jul 2006)

THEONE, I was alluding to the same thing in a previous comment (I think)

The reservists and regular force members(those form off base) working in petawawa for OP Archer ROTO 2 will not recieve any money from TD. Apparently it was suposed to be around $3000 to $3200 dollars.   The REAL kick in the nuts as I am told is that the reservists (and appropiate regs) from last tour recieved TD and the NEXT guys on roto 3 will recieve TD. it's just that us ROTO 2 guys fall in some kinda loop hole.

$3000 is a good chunck of money.  It's not a reserve vs regforce thing either.  Reg force soldiers get just as pissed off when they get dicked out of cash as reservists do.
 Most other tours, if Im not mistaken, saw their augmentees get TD. (Paladium 8 and 13 did and both of those were 6 months worth of work up). 
I have no idea why roto2 (oblivious to roto 1 and 3) won't get it.  I know a few guys who live 8 hours away. It's stupid to expect these guys to hang around in petawawa on week-ends for 6 months and then send them away for 6 months. Thats  a year away from their families, one fellow in my platoon just had a baby born to him and looses about $1000 a month working for the taskforce instead of his civilian job (though overseas he will break even he said) 
Augmentees dump a lot of money into the local economy from buying food and alcohol to boots to cars and other things.

If we are attach posted and DON'T recieve TD doesn't that mean we are intitled to a whole slew of other things?

In the end the biggest point of contention for us I think was that the guys before us and after us get it.



> Uh, I make 8 hour round trip most weekends and don't expect for the military to pay for it. Why do you?


because thats what TD is. Temporary duty.



> Now unlike a soldier who is posted.  Our families do not live near us.


Exactly.  What benifits come with being attach posted?


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## THEONE (4 Jul 2006)

Just so everyone knows.  I don't care too much about the money.  Its the fact that I was not attached posted before.  And they only decided this two weeks before we were sent home.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to take anything thats not mine.  I just don't like being told that I'll be getting something and then someone taking it away from me at the last second.


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## GO!!! (5 Jul 2006)

THEONE said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to take anything thats not mine.  I just don't like being told that I'll be getting something and then someone taking it away from me at the last second.



Get used to it - the whole army works that way.


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## Zoomie (5 Jul 2006)

Is 6 months long enough for the member to use LTA to visit his family?

If you are attach-posted and leave your dependants at home you should also receive free R&Q and get Separation Expense - which equates to more than TD.

6 months is far too long for a TD contract - attach posting is more in works with how the DAODs define that kind of duty.


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## HollywoodHitman (5 Jul 2006)

Dude,

If you're going overseas, you're attach posted to your mounting unit. You'll find that the contract dates are usually ammended and somewhat seperated. This means that you dont get the benefits associated with being posted. Consider though, that part of the reason you're given TD is for the inconvenience of being away from your comforts. 

We all deal with it. I was in Ont for part of my workup training, and all my buddies were going home on weekends...Those of us not from the area, suffered. Nature of the Green Machine. 

Good luck.


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## THEONE (5 Jul 2006)

Oh,  I'm already used to it.  As most people know.  Being in the military probably takes more out of you mentally then physically.  If they get a chance to screw you around they take it.  As long as it benefits them.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been threw this.  But like I said before.  It wouldn't bother me if my contract said that we wouldn't be getting it.  But my contract actually gave me TD.  That’s the main issue here.


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## paracowboy (5 Jul 2006)

define "They". I have a hard time imagining anyone devoting any time to finding ways to deliberately mess your pay. If it is that big a personal issue, address it via the CoC. Maybe you'll wake someone up somewhere, and something positive will come from it.


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## Kat Stevens (5 Jul 2006)

THEONE said:
			
		

> Oh,  I'm already used to it.  As most people know.  Being in the military probably takes more out of you mentally then physically.  If they get a chance to screw you around they take it.  As long as it benefits them.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been threw this.  But like I said before.  It wouldn't bother me if my contract said that we wouldn't be getting it.  But my contract actually gave me TD.  That’s the main issue here.



Sorry to bust your bubble, but the army was far too busy taking a personal interest in screwing with me to spare anyone to screw with you.  Maybe it's just what it is, or Karma.


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## GO!!! (5 Jul 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Sorry to bust your bubble, but the army was far too busy taking a personal interest in screwing with me to spare anyone to screw with you.  Maybe it's just what it is, or Karma.



Just wait until he figures out that TD is only for the first 30 days of temporary duty <tee hee>

Seriously though, there are reg force guys who would kill you off if they thought it would open a spot for them, and there are 10 more people waiting to take your spot should you decide to leave. 

In short, the army may be ****ing you around - but there is no shortage of volunteers, so it can't be that bad!


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## COBRA-6 (5 Jul 2006)

The new CANFORGEN about attached postings and separation expense should be out soon, I saw the email today.

Effective 01 JUL 06, members on attached posting outside the geographic area of their home unit are entitled to TD, for up to one year in duration. The change is not retroactive though.

Cheers


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## foerestedwarrior (6 Jul 2006)

I thought TD was for 30 days, then after 30 days you get it still, but less.   Last time I got it, it was $17.50/day for the first 30 days, then $13.50/day after that.


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## greydak (9 Jul 2006)

Just talk to the media.. Every time we get screwed by DND, either with lacking equipment or pay, good old CTV news comes to the rescue and runs the story until CDS Rick starts to fork out the dough. I’m pretty sure it’s the only way to fastball issues like this.


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## 2 Cdo (10 Jul 2006)

greydak said:
			
		

> Just talk to the media.. Every time we get screwed by DND, either with lacking equipment or pay, good old CTV news comes to the rescue and runs the story until CDS Rick starts to fork out the dough. I’m pretty sure it’s the only way to fastball issues like this.



Does anyone else here have a problem with attitudes like this one?


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## paracowboy (10 Jul 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Does anyone else here have a problem with attitudes like this one?


yup!


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## 392 (10 Jul 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Does anyone else here have a problem with attitudes like this one?



Ditto.....


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## Good2Golf (10 Jul 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Does anyone else here have a problem with attitudes like this one?



+1




			
				foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> I thought TD was for 30 days, then after 30 days you get it still, but less.   Last time I got it, it was $17.50/day for the first 30 days, then $13.50/day after that.



That's right...after 30 days, the TD benfits are reduced to 75%...I did TD in NDHQ for a bit and that's what happened on day 31.  It's all good!  I figure any time I'm not in my fart sack or a bivy bag, trying to scrounge JP-4 for my Kero-sun heater on a winterex in Wainright is a good thing!  ;D


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## GO!!! (10 Jul 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Does anyone else here have a problem with attitudes like this one?



Well, as much as it is a far from healthy attitude, there is a grain of truth to it. DND funding priorities seem to be directly tied to what is on the news.

I can think of half a dozen good things that happened because the CF got too much bad press and was embarrassed into acting.

Story on soldiers using food bank = pay raises

Story on troops in Afghanistan with green cbts in desert = promises of desert kit

Stories on "dangerous" Sea King = maritime helicopter contract

I don't agree with it, but if public humiliation is the only way to get the DND to act, and someone has shoulders big enough to take the blame....

How much longer do you think it will be before the Tac Vest is replaced if nobody stands in front of a camera and says "look at this POS..."


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## 2 Cdo (10 Jul 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Well, as much as it is a far from healthy attitude, there is a grain of truth to it. DND funding priorities seem to be directly tied to what is on the news.
> 
> I can think of half a dozen good things that happened because the CF got too much bad press and was embarrassed into acting.
> 
> ...



While there may be a "grain of truth" to it, it is still highly unprofessional and reeks of immature, spoiled, petulant, child-like behaviour!


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Jul 2006)

I work in another Federal Department now and have seen that sometimes public exposure is the only way to get things fixed. Organizations will begin to decay unless given a good kick on a regular basis. The media should be the last resort if the proper channels don’t fix a clearly unfair/unsafe/unethical problem.

The military has a long history of screwing up peoples lives, soldiers by and large take it on the chin and keep soldiering. The problem is that the administration side of the military, which by and large is run on a day to day basis by civilians become lazy and isolated from the effects of policy and regulations as they have little accountability and little consequence. If the military fails to ensure that their people are taken care of, either through the command channels or through a powerful ombudsman then they deserve to get swatted now and again.

Also the military needs recruits, screw to many people around and word will get out that it’s not worth it and that means you won’t be able to recruit the caliber of people you want. Remember the old saying: Take care of the little things, and the big ones will take care of themselves.


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## mainerjohnthomas (10 Jul 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> While there may be a "grain of truth" to it, it is still highly unprofessional and reeks of immature, spoiled, petulant, child-like behaviour!


    I am the first one to say that the press is not our friend, and to keep it in the family.  Having said that, there are times when keeping silent is allowing "the family" to continue to be corn-holed, and only a little public scrutiny will fix it.  The government may know the truth, and the opposition may be OK with us taking it up the tail pipe, but they can't exactly admit that on camera in front of millions of voters that they must pretend to serve.  I am probably doing a disservice to some of our MP's, but I know of several for whom it is too true.  It is a tactic of last resort, and all efforts to solve the problem through channels must be pursued, or we are only allowing others to further permanently undermine our Armed Forces for temporary benefit.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2006)

> While there may be a "grain of truth" to it, it is still highly unprofessional and reeks of immature, spoiled, petulant, child-like behaviour!



That saves lives.  

Sure glad the Iltis was replaced..


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## 2 Cdo (12 Jul 2006)

Just a quick note on some of the attitudes being displayed here by troops. If you think that it is okay to run to the press and whine anytime something in the Forces doesn't go your way, get out. You are not worthy of serving in the Forces. The military is not there to serve you, in fact you are there to serve it!

Selfish child-like behaviour that is being condoned by some on this site is why I decided to release at the end of my twenty and not stay any longer. The attitudes displayed by more and more serving members are rapidly becoming more selfish with a me-first line of thinking, and members on this site seem to think that is the way things should be run! 

Absolutely ridiculous, what will become of the Forces if this attitude is allowed to continue and grow? Thankfully I won't be around to see it. To all those who also abhor this tumourous, selfish attitude, I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you can put a stop to it!


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2006)

You're releasing from the Canadian Forces, who probably needs BTDT NCOs like yourself largely inpart because of what is being said on army.ca? Or do you mean here where you are stationed?
In any case I'm honestly sorry to hear that. Younger troops like myself have a lot to learn from guys like you. If you're not around to show us how to stay alive then who will? 

I don't think anyone will condone running to the press anytime you don't like something (runt o army.ca instead  )  I'm pretty sure the guy who made the comment in the first place said it sarcastically.  I don't think anyone is cool with soldiers whining to the media however you have to admit GO! brought up a very good point.

Some of the MAJOR changes in our military have infact been due to soldiers involving the media.
new kit (operation clothe the soldier, who in the CF hasnt benifitted from that?!)
Pay raises so our soldiers aren't eating out of food banks.  Eating rations while overseas is one thing. Eating them at home after work is another.
Condition of PMQs.
That crap with the iltis.
list goes on.

While whining is unprofessional, agreed, sometimes you can get interesting results if you apply pressure from certain outside agencies.



> The military is not there to serve you, in fact you are there to serve it!


I would defend that soldiers, by bringing to light these issues ARE serving the military by putting us in a better position to accomplish the mission.


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## paffomaybe (12 Jul 2006)

March 27, 1995.  Cpl. Neil MacKinnon, 1VP, was killed in a live fire excercise at Suffield.  The official word was that he was killed in a grenade mishap, but in the course of covering this story for the Calgary Herald, the reporter sensed something was wrong when finding out from the coroner that the cpl was actually killed by a shot to the head.  Using the Access to Information act, the reporter requested documents to find out what really happened; initial reports suggested that the cpl died as a result of a mistake on his part.  After 20 months, the reporter and the family started receiving a clearer picture of what really happened, despite obvious delay tactics, and receiving briefings on the incident that were heavily blacked out.  The result of the media investigation resulted in revealing a number of clear safety and training violations during the excersise, as well as the fact that the dnd tried to cover it up.  The appropriate people in the chain of command were charged with negligence, and the family got the benefits they deserved, as well as the truth about their sons death that they most assuredly deserved.

There's a fine line between sucking it up and being taken advantage of; whining and speaking out when something is genuinely wrong.  The media is far from a perfect institution, but all institutions are like that - including the military - and an important way any organization purges itself of corruption and changes for the better is when it uses the checks and balances that exist around it in order to fix itself.  It would be ideal if institutions fixed themselves; sadly, many orgs get to a point where it becomes an echo chamber, and the members of that org can lack the perspective to do what's necessary to fix itself.

The media may have some strong biases when reporting on the military, but there are people in there who are always willing to do the right thing.  I've read some good stuff by Chris Wattie, Peter Worthington, and (even though I hate her other intellectually-masturbatory stuff about her life), Christie Blatchford.  The key is to develop judgment in what to fix by yourself, what to keep in the family, and what is genuinely wrong that needs help from the outside.  And if that's the case, talking to the right people on the outside who you respect and trust to do the right thing, who will write the right story.  Keeping an elite bunker mentality is all well and good for stuff like unit cohesion, but there's a time and a place for that, and a time and a place to reach out and develop relationships with the outside in order to keep the insides clean and healthy.  Otherwise, you're just hurting yourself and the military that you love.

Not all media is evil.  Not all reporters are self-interested wolverines that feast on a good story.  And, despite the overwhelming opinion to the contrary (on this board, from all sorts of CFer's I've talked to from Col down to Pte), not all paffo's are remfy idiots.  Seek out the right ones that can help you with the issues you need help with, and keep your military healthy so that it can do the job it needs to do without screwing over the men and women who constitute its parts.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (12 Jul 2006)

Quite a long post from someone who's never served.  Frankly, we have internal mechanisms aplenty for dealing with most issues, and I don't have much time for those who go whining to the press because they don't happen to like the tac vest.  I would suggest that there are almost NO instances where serving members should be going to the press, unless we're dealing with a dramatic institutional lapse of such huge proportion that there is no alternative.

Please don't tell me that you'll become the kind of PAFFO - all too prevalent over the years - that sees themselves as serving a higher journalistic calling, rather than providing advice and service to the chain of command.  We certainly don't need 'em.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Jul 2006)

.......and now that it's gone right off topic, we can lock it.


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Jul 2006)

....... but after being accused of not acting fairly, it's reopened.


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## KevinB (14 Jul 2006)

I sent this verbatime to PAFFOMAYBE (and some other comments >) as he clearly does not have a clue -- but I figured I would post this for edification purposes of the general public.
Futher comment: Comments like the above from paffomaybe are dumb, immoral and IF I could, I'd throat punch the cocker sucker for making them.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Okay -- WRT the MacKinnon incident.

1) It was known very soon afterwards that the section C9 gunner had hit Mac (2I/C s team).  (Smith the 2I/C is another worthless piece of work but that's another story)
2) The ARSO had gone up to the body to see if he was okay and when he moved him the grenade was released.

It was VERY shortly after that a BOI was formed and several people where charged.

Dave Hirter (then OC B 1VP) took the full brunt of the witchhunt and was demoted and banished 
*despite Dave being a RRMC guy, JTF plank owner and one, if not the best officer I have ever worked for.
Dave released from the CF and went on to become a security contractor (circa 1995-today 
Dave flew out (on his own dime) to the parents to explain what happend and took full responsibility (well he had to any way the CO and BDE Commander hung him out to dry)

The C9 Gunner suffered thru PTSD and recently after returning from Op Athena RotoII - just then agreed to take his JNCO and become a leader -- since he had been shirking away from any command responsibility until then.  He is a capable troop and I hope now that he is exercising his demons he will be a solid Leader.

The C79 Elcan was found to be the culprit -- the solider was a new troop out of BSL (Hitler Line 9411 IIRC) and had never shot the weapon before they went live.
The sight was off tgt - 4,  4 ft screens to the left @ 100m.

The CO and Bde Commander walked away - ignoring their command responsibilities 
  By far and above the worst officers I have ever met 

The ARSO (a sgt) was busy picking his ass with his arc stick talking to people than doing his job -- but he and the other NCO's walked - it was too soon after Somalia to hang a lower rank - so they needed a field grade officer

______________________________



1) I know several of the individuals in question personally
2) I am not anyone mentioned above


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## 2 Cdo (18 Jul 2006)

Infidel, in regards to "Super Dave", I agree 100%!  Possibly the best officer in the CF
and they hung him out to dry, a loss to the CF for sure!


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## reccecrewman (18 Jul 2006)

Welcome to the world of being a full time soldier! How do you think we who are posted here year round feel?  Can I go home to visit friends and family anytime I choose? No, I cannot.  It's one of the many sacrifices we make (Res & Reg) to serve our country.  

Imagine that, a soldier having to be separated from loved ones........... who knew?  :

Regards


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## Jarnhamar (19 Jul 2006)

> Welcome to the world of being a full time soldier! How do you think we who are posted here year round feel?  Can I go home to visit friends and family anytime I choose? No, I cannot.  It's one of the many sacrifices we make (Res & Reg) to serve our country.



Difference being when your on TD you're family isn't living with you, as they do when you're posted somewhere.


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## GO!!! (19 Jul 2006)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> So your wife and maybe kids aren't living with you right now?  In a house you rent or own near the base your posted?
> 
> You go home every night because you live there.


Unless on a course, exercise, tasking or deployment, why yes! Some years this amounts to nearly 50% of the time, with the vast majority of that on FOA, not TD. Not alot of sympathy here.

I hate to break out the "army-isms" but you knew what you signed up for when you VOLUNTEERED for this deployment and the associated workup trg. It's not too late - just inform your CoC that you don't want to go anymore because there is no TD.



> This isn't a matter of who should be given TD and who shouldn't.   Whether TD should be given given our OR the sacrifices soldiers make.  I do see the point you and others are making about crap happening in the army and time spent away from home, ESPECIALLY by the regs. That's not the issue.


You want to be treated like the regs, and now you are - except this is the "bad" side of the common administrative fumbles. We get abused sometimes too. 



> The point is one group is getting screwed out of a few thou. I'm sure everyone has horror stories, that doesn't change the fact that a few hundred of us are probably getting shafted by a loophole.  I'm sure most people reading this wouldn't be as 'oh well suck it up' if they lost $3000.


If you never had it in the first place - did you really "lose" it? Last time I checked, those contracts do not specify a dollar amount that you are supposed to get paid.

Stop complaining - I know several hundred guys who would take your position - TD or not - for the opportunity to deploy.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Jul 2006)

Ahh you got me after I edited my post !

There are a bunch of arguments you can bring up,
-People would love to get a position on tour
-Were making lots of money since it's tax free
-Shit happens in the army
-Were not told we're given X amount of dollars in our contract (We were given a number on paper what we were entitled too though that has nothing to do with our contract, thats to do with our claim.)

I can't really argue any of that because it's all true your right.

Were lucky to have a spot on tour, no one is arguing that believe me.  
Loosing out on 3 grand right before a month of leave due to an administrative loophole is shit, thats all.  Like I said, everyone is going to have horror stories, i guess mine (ours)  could be much worse


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## THEONE (20 Jul 2006)

Well.  Its finally over.  At least for now.  I was called in today to sign papers for my claim.  A little worried about what they would say.  And I had a good reason to be worried.  All I'm getting is around 300$  And they told me that I would be entitled to all the benefits of being posted, unfortunately you only receive those at the end of each month.  According to my clerk.  And since the policy was only decided after I left to go back home it looks like I wont be getting anything.  Like with anything else I have to wait to see what happens next.  But as far as I'm concerned, it's pretty much over.  But you better believe that I will be bringing this up soon.  Cause there was no reason to do that to all these soldiers.  No excuse at all.  Oh yeah, and they do have time to screw around with me too.  I'm pretty sure that they hire people purposely to do such things.  lol.


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