# friendly fire in Normandy wwII



## parkie (18 Apr 2006)

Would somebody be so kind has to help this old guy remember the events surrounding the bombing of the 3rd infantry division by allied bombers in Normandy during the war, I was vacationing in Italy at the time, And I never did find out the particulars about it, Had friends there, would like to know, but have always been afraid to ask, but I see someone mention it on a different message and it brings back memories. Would like to know.

                                                                                    parkie


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## pbi (19 Apr 2006)

parkie: The two Canadian operations in question were "TOTALIZE" and "TRACTABLE", offensive operations that followed the Normandy landings, and were designed to push out of the Caen area and close off the Falaise gap. TOTALIZE was conducted 7-8 Aug 1944 and TRACTABLE about a week later, after TOTALIZE stalled. Both involved the use of heavy bombers to strike ground targets in support of the attacking forces, and both resulted in Canadian and Allied ground casualties from "friendly fire". If you want to look at a list of primary source documents, you can check out:http://www.lib.uea.ac.uk/lib/libinf/find/archives/zuckerman/bsgf.htm.

Cheers


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## ex-Sup (19 Apr 2006)

Just finished a course that dealt exclusively with the Canadian army in NW Europe in 44-45. Probably the most famous case occurred during Tractable when bombers dropped their payloads short, hitting troops from the 3rd Infantry and 1st Polish Armoured near Quesnay Wood and Potigny. Haven't had chance to check out the previous link, but you can find some info here:
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-rod-nor-cam-e.htm

Also, Terry Copp's book _Fields of Fire: The Canadians in Normandy_ is an excellent history of the Normandy battles.
Hope this helps.


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## pbi (19 Apr 2006)

The point I guess we are all making here is that there is nothing new and unusual about fratricide in our army(or probably in any army in combat). I recall visiting Italy as an Army Staff College student in 1990. Accompanying us were several retired Canadian senior officers who had been in command positions during the campaign. While we were at Coriano Ridge, the former DivArty Comd was holding forth about what a great job his gunners had done in suppressing the German arty. He claimed that the Germans were unable to get off a round (or words to that effect). One of the other retired guys looked at him for second, then asked: "So whose artillery rounds were landing on us as we were going up that ridge?"

Cheers


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## Kirkhill (19 Apr 2006)

pbi:

I don't have it to hand but IIRC didn't Currie, in his planning for Vimy, and subsequent assaults, allow for a certain percentage of Canadian casualties resulting from his own fire support plan?  "Leaning into the barrage" and accepting some casualties from "shorts" was considered to be less wasteful of lives than keeping a safe distance and allowing the enemy time to man the firestep.

As you say - friendly fire is not new.  I wonder if there were any "friendly fire" incidents at Hastings or Agincourt?

Cheers.


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## ex-Sup (19 Apr 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> The point I guess we are all making here is that there is nothing new and unusual about fratricide in our army(or probably in any army in combat). I recall visiting Italy as an Army Staff College student in 1990. Accompanying us were several retired Canadian senior officers who had been in command positions during the campaign. While we were at Coriano Ridge, the former DivArty Comd was holding forth about what a great job his gunners had done in suppressing the German arty. He claimed that the Germans were unable to get off a round (or words to that effect). One of the other retired guys looked at him for second, then asked: "So whose artillery rounds were landing on us as we were going up that ridge?"



I agree totally. There were probably many more cases that were never reported/documented or attributed to enemy fire. I'm not an expert, but there are many great cases of "friendly fire" throughout history ie. the shooting of Confederate General Stonewall Jackson at the Battle of Chancellorsville. I think it is a VERY unfortunate byproduct of conflict and the fog of war.


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## pbi (19 Apr 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> pbi:
> 
> I don't have it to hand but IIRC didn't Currie, in his planning for Vimy, and subsequent assaults, allow for a certain percentage of Canadian casualties resulting from his own fire support plan?  "Leaning into the barrage" and accepting some casualties from "shorts" was considered to be less wasteful of lives than keeping a safe distance and allowing the enemy time to man the firestep.
> 
> ...



The medieval experts will correct me, but I believe that at Agincourt the French knights cut down their own Portuguese crossbowmen to get them out of the way so they could put in a mounted charge against the English.

Cheers


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## parkie (19 Apr 2006)

I thank you all for your help,by the time I recouped from wounds at the liri,Nobody would talk about it

                                                                          parkie


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## parkie (19 Apr 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> pbi:
> 
> I don't have it to hand but IIRC didn't Currie, in his planning for Vimy, and subsequent assaults, allow for a certain percentage of Canadian casualties resulting from his own fire support plan?  "Leaning into the barrage" and accepting some casualties from "shorts" was considered to be less wasteful of lives than keeping a safe distance and allowing the enemy time to man the firestep.
> 
> ...


yes,they considered leaning into the barrage,more acceptable,The enemy being no fool soon learned,has any good tactician.Infantry follows a barrage,I think this is what caught us at the hitler line,because even after the intense barrage that the allies put down, we never expected to be hit that hard that fast,perhaps if we leaned a little more into our own barrage we would have been better off


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## parkie (19 Apr 2006)

ex-Sup said:
			
		

> Just finished a course that dealt exclusively with the Canadian army in NW Europe in 44-45. Probably the most famous case occurred during Tractable when bombers dropped their payloads short, hitting troops from the 3rd Infantry and 1st Polish Armoured near Quesnay Wood and Potigny. Haven't had chance to check out the previous link, but you can find some info here:
> http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-rod-nor-cam-e.htm
> 
> Also, Terry Copp's book _Fields of Fire: The Canadians in Normandy_ is an excellent history of the Normandy battles.
> Hope this helps.


This is The one, thanks guys.
                       parkie


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## 3rd Horseman (15 May 2006)

I spent some time chatting with General Sparling about friendly fire during the big assaults of WW2. His comments are as follows:

(From our discussion as best I can remember) General Sparling's comments " During one of the big assaults on the Hitler line I was standing beside my Inf Commander and we noticed that some of the shells were falling into the troops in the assult.  He turned to me and asked me what I was going to do about those drop shorts, I said that they were the enemies and he better hurry up the assult before they get fully zeroed in by the germans." 

 He told me that it was a poor response but explained that he knew that  there was no way he could find out what was the offending gun without stopping all the fire and causing more deaths, so it had to do.

Typo gram


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## Michael Dorosh (15 May 2006)

Another example was Lesley McNair - the command of US Army Ground Forces in WW II - being killed by short bombing in the opening phase of COBRA in late Jul 1944.


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## Old Sweat (15 May 2006)

Regarding friendly fire incidents involving heavy bombers hitting Allied ground forces, we should remember that the heavies were not organized, equipped or trained to attack targets close to our own forces. Furthermore their equipment was very primitive compared to today and I believe that what sophisticated electronic navigation devices were in use did not cover Normandy. To hit a ground target successfully depended upon the navigator guiding the pilot to the target area, the pilot flying the aircraft accurately and the bomb aimer identifying the target and selecting the correct point of aim. 

In Bomber Command the aircraft did not attack in formation, but rather flew in a bomber stream (a night bombing tactic) and each attacked the target individually following the guidance of a master bomber who stayed over the target area 'coaching' aircraft to hit coloured markers dropped by the pathfinder force. Pathfinders were not employed in great numbers during the two incidents Parkie raised. In any case, in the second the colour of the markers in use that day was yellow, which also was the colour of the panels and smoke used by ground forces to identify their positions to tactical aircraft. After the incident Harris was prepared to make an issue of this, until his staff discovered that Eisenhoer's headquarters had sent them a letter to the effect that yellow was to be used only to identify friendly forces. This letter had been misfiled.

As Bomber Harris wrote in his covering letter to the investigation of the Tractable short bombing on 14 August 1944, and I am paraphrasing, neither the pilot nor the navigator could actually see the target being attacked, and the bomb aimers were selected from those member of the potential aircrew trainee pool that were not considered to suitable material to be trained as pilots or navigators. 

The situation was darn near successproof and the results in Normandy, where most attempts to use heavy bombers to support ground forces resulted in friendly fire incidents, bear that out.


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## parkie (15 May 2006)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> I spent some time chatting with General Sparling about friendly fire during the big assaults of WW2. His comments are as follows:
> 
> (From our discussion as best I can remember) General Sparling's comments " During one of the big assaults on the Hitler line I was standing beside my Inf Commander and we noticed that some of the shells were falling into the troops in the assult.  He turned to me and asked me what I was going to do about those drop shorts, I said that they were the enemies and he better hurry up the assult before they get fully zeroed in by the germans."
> 
> He told me that it was a poor response but explained that he knew that  there was no way he could find out what was the offending gun without stopping all the fire and causing more deaths, so it had to do.


Thanks for this.I  have wondered for years,why,I think the big thing for me was that,I thought with the size of the artillery barrage.  I,myself kind of  under estimated or was feeling a little to secure,it just surprised the hell out of me,I couldn't beleive that we barely took two steps and we almost got wiped out.
                                        parkie


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## Michael Dorosh (15 May 2006)

Hey parkie, on a side note, did you ever know Lieutenant Don Munro? He was a PSM with the Calgary Highlanders who joined the Patricias as  Lieutenant after the Sicily batlle, as a reinforcement officer. I don't know if he was a platoon commander - I think he mentioned being a transport officer. He is still coming out to Highlanders regimental functions and was out for St. Julien's in Apr, but was with PPCLI from late 43 til early 45. Just curious.


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## parkie (15 May 2006)

boy, michael,that name sure is ringing a bell,let me think about it for a spell,or give me something else to help me think.


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## Michael Dorosh (16 May 2006)

parkie said:
			
		

> boy, michael,that name sure is ringing a bell,let me think about it for a spell,or give me something else to help me think.



How about a photo?


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## parkie (16 May 2006)

been picturing him  In his combat wear.I am almost positive I  have seen this man near the rear echelon ,around the intelligence unit.I could be wrong,but,I am almost sure of it.


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## Michael Dorosh (16 May 2006)

parkie said:
			
		

> been picturing him  In his combat wear.I am almost positive I  have seen this man near the rear echelon ,around the intelligence unit.I could be wrong,but,I am almost sure of it.



That could be him; there is a newspaper article about him at the museum leading a patrol. I'm embarrassed to say I don't know much about his war service. I should find out.


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## parkie (16 May 2006)

nothing to be embarressed about,hell, back then there was nothing like we have now for recording history,if you had a camera,it wasn't around long,even paper to write home or make a diary or memories was scarce.,In France.towards the end of the war,A man gave me a matching set of belgium browning 32 cal. officer pistols, for about a dozen sheets of paper.I still have them.


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## parkie (16 May 2006)

anyway,back on what the subject was,I have been trying to rattle Jack's noggin about the whole affair,But he's not talkin'.not yet.It's strange,the rumors that you heard back then,you know info was so slow in reaching the guy in the field or else none existant,some men honestly thought that the incident was the result of a air crew that dropped their load,for fear of flying over occupied territory,that's how much many were kept out of the know.


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