# "RMC to run up $415K tab on bar renovations"



## mariomike (28 Nov 2009)

"OTTAWA — The Royal Military College of Canada, one of the country’s premier training schools for young officers, will run up a tab of $415,000 to renovate the bar in its senior staff mess.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/11/24/11913946-sun.html


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## Run away gun (28 Nov 2009)

Good to know in a time where the rest of the military is making cuts...


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## Michael OLeary (28 Nov 2009)

Run away gun said:
			
		

> Good to know in a time where the rest of the military is making cuts...



What cuts are the Air Force and Navy making?  Links?


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## tango22a (28 Nov 2009)

It would sure pay for a lot of the Junior Ranks to attend the Men's Christmas Dinner!!


tango22a


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2009)

Wow.  Just wow.  The army is cutting Cl B jobs out from peoples feet, rumours of cancelled Mens Christmas Dinners, cancelled training for P Res types in LFCA and...they have just shy of half a million for *bar renovations*.

Thats it boys, make sure you look after the priorities, like say, the BAR for "senior staff" at RM-fuckin-C.

 :


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## tango22a (28 Nov 2009)

"It's the same old song!!!"  Gut the PRes AGAIN and then pi$$ the money up against the wall. And when the PRes fails to do the job (without money, training, equipment, etc) that gives the Big Boys an (in)valid reason to cut them even more or disband them!


Things like this really make me proud to have served!!      (sarcasm)


tango22a


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## George Wallace (28 Nov 2009)

Repairs and upgrades to "infrastructure" are not cheap, and only get more expensive if problems are ignored for long periods of time........Anyone been involved with asbestos removal?  Not cheap.

This is a non-issue.


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## tango22a (28 Nov 2009)

George:

"This is a non-issue"

Sorry, but I beg to differ. It's just another blatant example of priorities in The CF. "Let's see how much the PRes screams when we lay this on them!"

You might also notice how much the PAO tried to play down the costs and the quality of the renovations in the newspaper article.


tango22a

And NO, I have no intention of getting in a flame war over this!


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## PMedMoe (28 Nov 2009)

This money was more than likely budgeted for _and_ spent before the other cuts came out.  Slow news day indeed.   :


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## George Wallace (28 Nov 2009)

You can disagree all you want, but "if the roof leaks, you have got to fix it".  This is a different budget from that used to pay troops.  This is a budget for infrastructure.  There is also a budget for vehicles, and another for weapons, and yet another for ammo, and food, and we can go on for ever discussing "budget allocations".  This has absolutely nothing to do with a budget for Class B Reservists or a Budget for Class A Training.  They are all different animals.

Should we cut the operational budget for the purchase of ammunition to send to the troops in Afghanistan to keep a few Class B Reservists employed?  Ridiculous.


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## tango22a (28 Nov 2009)

George: 


OK, I'm outta this thread. You will have to admit that the timing of the announcement did kinda s**k.


tango22a


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## ballz (28 Nov 2009)

I'm not saying this because of any issues with what the CF is doing with it's money, I don't know how any of that stuff works, but I'm just thinking it must be one helluva bar if it costs $415,000 to renovate it... Give me $415k and I'll give you a brand new bar that would rival all of George Street...

I should have put in a bid I guess...


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## SeanNewman (28 Nov 2009)

Fully agreed that the money comes from very different piles.

Yes the perception looks bad when you take the entire big picture view, but I assure you it's just the optics that are bad.

Implying that you should stop all maintenance because times are hard is stupid, whether it's a mess or a road or new tires.

Plus, this is only one tidbit of the full story.  How do you know that the same guy in charge of the RMC budget hasn't already saved millions in good decisions?  How do you know he hasn't prioritized everything to the best of his ability and chose this one because if he didn't the thing could collapse?


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## George Wallace (28 Nov 2009)

tango22a said:
			
		

> George:
> 
> 
> OK, I'm outta this thread. You will have to admit that the timing of the announcement did kinda s**k.
> ...



The timing sucks and the way that journalist seems to want it to play on the lack of peoples knowledge of the numerous budgets that the government has to deal with in order to manage its daily affairs makes it almost criminal in the way that they are playing on the public's emotions.

This isn't your mistake or fault.  It is the fault of poor research on the part of the journalist, and/or their looking for some sensationalism to make as story.


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## George Wallace (28 Nov 2009)

OK

We have fallen into a trap here with some sensationalist journalism, if you want to fly off on a tangent; or simply a report of a construction project on a CF establishment.

I have received one PM that twigged my mind: this could be all funded by Mess Funds or NPF and have absolutely no bearing on what some here are speculating or inferring.  It could be a long overdue capital project to maintain infrastructure.  I really didn't see any research into, nor stating, where these funds were to come from.


Let's simplify it some with an analogy:

In your daily life you budget for everything.  You have a budget for your Electric Bill, your Natural Gas Bill, your Water Bill, Property Taxes, your Telephone Bill, your Rent, gas for your car, your monthly Bus Pass, a small budget for treats/chocolate/pop/, a small budget for movies/entertainment, etc.  In hard times you will have to adjust all your budgets and determine where you can cut from, probably starting with snacks or visits to the peelers.  Whatever.  You will prioritize your various budget requirements and adjust accordingly.  

Treasury Board does this with all Government Agencies.  DND does it internally.   The CF does it as well.  Land Force, further down the chain, does it.  And on down the line.  Reservists and Renovations are in two separate Budget Forcasts within the CF.  They are not even in the same CoC.


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## McG (28 Nov 2009)

The mess in Gagetown was recently told it had to shell out NPF money for bar renovations because public funds were not permitted for this use ... even for structural.

I wonder how much the facts are distorted in the article.  The senior staff mess is a dinning mess, and I wonder how much of this money  (if any) is more focused toward the dinning hall portion of the building.  I also wonder if some portion of the published bill is NPF money.  I know the big dollar NPF stuff still ends up on the MERX, and I am not aware of any regulation that would prevent a hybrid public/non-public funded project (especially if it could reduce costs to both pots of money).


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## Michael OLeary (28 Nov 2009)

MCG said:
			
		

> I know the big dollar NPF stuff still ends up on the MERX, and I am not aware of any regulation that would prevent a hybrid public/non-public funded project (especially if it could reduce costs to both pots of money).



There isn't.  Defence Construction Canada would determine what aspects of the project can be paid for with public funds, and what portion must be paid by non-public funds (i.e., the Mess).  DCC would then manage it as a single project.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Nov 2009)

Reno's cost money-    Reno's must be done or they cost more money- that's all.

Well except for one question,............... if I keep a bottle of rye in my kitchen does that make it a "bar" renovation?


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## gcclarke (29 Nov 2009)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Reno's cost money-    Reno's must be done or they cost more money- that's all.
> 
> Well except for one question,............... if I keep a bottle of rye in my kitchen does that make it a "bar" renovation?



Only if, when I open your fridge, that bottle and some Cola aren't the sole occupants.


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## jeffb (29 Nov 2009)

MCG said:
			
		

> The mess in Gagetown was recently told it had to shell out NPF money for bar renovations because public funds were not permitted for this use ... even for structural.



My understanding was that the mess in Gagetown had to shell out NPF funds because it was the area behind the bar and only because it was that area.


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## Occam (29 Nov 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> There isn't.  Defence Construction Canada would determine what aspects of the project can be paid for with public funds, and what portion must be paid by non-public funds (i.e., the Mess).  DCC would then manage it as a single project.



From my experience on mess committees, you've got it right.  This is probably a mixed bag as far as funding goes.  Generally speaking, infrastructure (or anything "permanently attached" like A/C units) has to be covered by public funds.  This includes exterior structural, HVAC, electrical distribution, major plumbing and items like wheelchair access.  NPF covers items such as carpet, appliances, appliance-specific plumbing and electrical, furniture, internal (gyproc) walls, stage lighting, etc.

For smaller jobs, like installing stage lighting for example, the fact that it's covered by NPF funds doesn't always mean that getting the job done is a fait accompli.  Getting membership approval and CO approval on minutes is easy - but for installation, CE usually has to do the hookups, and the messes are so far down on their priority lists it's not funny.


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## McG (29 Nov 2009)

jeffb said:
			
		

> My understanding was that the mess in Gagetown had to shell out NPF funds because it was the area behind the bar and only because it was that area.


So goes the story.  However, there are larger structural things with the water issues & apparently that is still being dumped on NPF to pay.


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## Retired AF Guy (29 Nov 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> This money was more than likely budgeted for _and_ spent before the other cuts came out.  Slow news day indeed.   :



Related to that is when the project was tendered, how many companies bid on the contract, how long before someone was awarded the bid and how long it took the winning company to get its personnel and equipment ready to start work.   I would also point out that while 415K may sound like a lot of money, when you factor in things like wages, equipment, equipment rental, material, etc, you can go threw 415k pretty quickly; and that's if everything goes according to plan!


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