# Minister Anand announces investment of up to $3.7 billion to supply operational clothing and footwear to the Canadian Armed Forces



## dangerboy (20 Oct 2022)

To the surprise of no one, Logistik Unicorp has been awarded the OCFC2 contract.



> October 20, 2022 – Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, QC – National Defence / Canadian Armed Forces
> 
> Today, the Minister of National Defence, Anita Anand, announced that Logistik Unicorp based in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec, has been awarded a contract to provide operational clothing and footwear to the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF). This contract, valued at up to $3.7 billion over 20 years, will support over 3000 jobs in Canada’s clothing, footwear and textile industries.
> 
> ...



Minister Anand announces investment of up to $3.7 billion to supply operational clothing and footwear to the Canadian Armed Forces - Canada.ca


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## dapaterson (20 Oct 2022)

What does this mean for BOOTFORGEN?


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## GK .Dundas (20 Oct 2022)

Oh goodie ,new t shirts ...sometime in the next 15 or 20 years.


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## Kirkhill (20 Oct 2022)

Is this before or after the Ukrainians get new parkas?


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## daftandbarmy (20 Oct 2022)

Quebec textile industry votes Liberal!


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## Navy_Pete (20 Oct 2022)

Oh good, now our operational clothing can also be tailored to fit no actual human being, with unfit for purpose footwear.

I look forward to FR clothing being replaced with highly flammable synthetics that are extra POL absorbent.


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## Furniture (20 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Oh good, now our operational clothing can also be tailored to fit no actual human being, with unfit for purpose footwear.
> 
> I look forward to FR clothing being replaced with highly flammable synthetics that are extra POL absorbent.


In fairness, the current NCDs(old?) are provided by Logistik Unicorp... I'm hoping to hold onto the NCDs for a few more years, as the new version does not appeal to me in the slightest.


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## Spencer100 (20 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Quebec textile industry votes Liberal!


Justin wouldn't have it any other way.


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## dapaterson (20 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Quebec textile industry votes Liberal!


Winnipeg is in Quebec now?









						Home | Peerless Garments | Winnipeg, MB
					

We manufacture military clothing made from waterproof, breathable materials to keep you warm, comfortable, and dry. Get in touch with us to place your order.




					peerlessgarments.ca


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## OldSolduer (20 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Winnipeg is in Quebec now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently,  we need a geography lesson - the CEO is a former Honorary LCol.


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## dimsum (20 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Oh good, now our operational clothing can also be tailored to fit no actual human being, with unfit for purpose footwear.


So...no change?

_Looks at sizing between combats_


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## PuckChaser (20 Oct 2022)

I, for one, am excited for the same "size out of stock" issues at clothing stores now to be conveniently online via Logistik Unicorp's tradtional "this item is on backorder for 6 months" DEU system.


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## Kirkhill (20 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> So...no change?
> 
> _Looks at sizing between combats_


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## Furniture (20 Oct 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I, for one, am excited for the same "size out of stock" issues at clothing stores now to be conveniently online via Logistik Unicorp's tradtional "this item is on backorder for 6 months" DEU system.


It took me months for my initial issue, and now I still can't get enough DEU pants to wear 3Bs to work every day...


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## rmc_wannabe (21 Oct 2022)

My unit had to create a "DEU Library" so we could kit out some of the new folks so they wouldn't look like ass forbparades and such. 

Any still usable DEU items would be left in the lockers and folks could garb from there. It was far more effective than waiting for Logistik to deliver on time and with the right size


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> View attachment 74352


Hey, _somebody _has to keep the "there are two sizes in the Army - too large and too small" meme alive.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> My unit had to create a "DEU Library" so we could kit out some of the new folks so they wouldn't look like ass forbparades and such.
> 
> Any still usable DEU items would be left in the lockers and folks could garb from there. It was far more effective than waiting for Logistik to deliver on time and with the right size



What unit are you in that you're on parade that much?  Actually don't answer that.
I _really _hope those items get washed after (and probably before) wearing...


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## Edward Campbell (21 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Hey, _somebody _has to keep the "there are two sizes in the Army - too large and too small" meme alive.


True ... Sign in a garrison QM back in 1960:

*We have two sizes here, too big and too small;*​​*If it fits, you're deformed.*​


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## Haggis (21 Oct 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I, for one, am excited for the same "size out of stock" issues at clothing stores now to be conveniently online via Logistik Unicorp's tradtional "this item is on backorder for 6 months" DEU system.


My Agency uses Logistik Unicorps as well.  I tried to order four replacement belt keepers for my duty belt and was told my annual entitlement is one.  But, if I order a whole new duty belt, I get six keepers with it.  Same shyte - different coloured uniform.


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## Kirkhill (21 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Hey, _somebody _has to keep the "there are two sizes in the Army - too large and too small" meme alive.


My Hero!


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## rmc_wannabe (21 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> What unit are you in that you're on parade that much?  Actually don't answer that.
> I _really _hope those items get washed after (and probably before) wearing...


1. It's in the profile, so lots of grad parades and such.

2. Its more of a "if you need this, coool it's now yours until it doesn't fit or you no longer need it" as opposed to a "Wear and return" situation.

So far, it's been a pretty good initiative bred out of necessity. It would be sooooo much better if Logistik Unicorps could pull their head out of their ass and provide what members are entitled to, instead of creating the conditions for this creative solution.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Hey, _somebody _has to keep the "there are two sizes in the Army - too large and too small" meme alive.



Pedant point: British troops, retired or otherwise, don't salute with their headdress off. 

Therefore, this man is clearly a f*cking Walt


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## Kirkhill (21 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Pedant point: British troops, retired or otherwise, don't salute with their headdress off.
> 
> Therefore, this man is clearly a f*cking Walt


Worse.

A Para! 😄


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## Kat Stevens (21 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Pedant point: British troops, retired or otherwise, don't salute with their headdress off.
> 
> Therefore, this man is clearly a f*cking Walt


Oy, that's Bernard Cribbins, mate! Show some respect!


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Oct 2022)

Thankfully, flight clothing has been left out of the mix;  we can continue to just go to clothing stores to find out there is no stock available.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Thankfully, flight clothing has been left out of the mix;  we can continue to just go to clothing stores to find out there is no stock available.


Ah, but how about flying clothing that's CADPAT?


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## markppcli (21 Oct 2022)

Logistic Unicorp can’t be much worse than Peerless surely?

What I like about this is that we’ll see a shift towards ordering more of clothing. This should allow us to draw down the size of base clothing stores, and better serve the reserves. It should also free up some PYs in time. While I wouldn’t recommend Reddit for a whole lot generally, it’s very toxic, and memebe in there went into some detail about how hopelessly outdated the main depot in Montreal is, to that point it’s basically infixable without shutting it down. Outsourcing distribution means they’ll be forced to take it on which should be a positive.


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Oct 2022)

On the Navy League Cadet level we are looking to source uniform components from elsewhere than Logistiks. I found some decent parade belts from Pakistan (We also got a lovely drum major sash from there) and looking for better lanyards, caps and boots from other sources. We got much nicer jackets locally as well.


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## MJP (21 Oct 2022)

markppcli said:


> While I wouldn’t recommend Reddit for a whole lot generally, it’s very toxic, and memebe in there went into some detail about how hopelessly outdated the main depot in Montreal is, to that point it’s basically infixable without shutting it down. Outsourcing distribution means they’ll be forced to take it on which should be a positive.


I have until very recently worked in the depot at 7 CFSD now directly work with both of them and what that guy said was essentially wrong/entirely misleading.  

There are inefficiencies at the depots but not in the way outlined by that person nor is it irreparably broken.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

MJP said:


> I have until very recently worked in the depot at 7 CFSD now directly work with both of them and what that guy said was essentially wrong/entirely misleading.


Wait - CAF Reddit is _wrong_ about something?  Excuse me while I get my smelling salts.



Colin Parkinson said:


> On the Navy League Cadet level we are looking to source uniform components from elsewhere than Logistiks. I found some decent parade belts from Pakistan (We also got a lovely drum major sash from there) and looking for better lanyards, caps and boots from other sources. We got much nicer jackets locally as well.


I actually didn't know that the Navy League sourced from Logistik at all, since they're not (officially) part of CJCR.  Or am I mistaken?


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I actually didn't know that the Navy League sourced from Logistik at all, since they're not (officially) part of CJCR.  Or am I mistaken?


Yes we do, but we have to pay up front out of our own pocket and Logistik Corp does not make it easier or cheaper (like bundling orders to save shipping costs) My dress uniform tunic is likley 15 years old and possibly I am the third person to wear it. We don't toss uniform bits until they become unusable. A Cadet uniform is likely to be worn by 2-3 cadets as well before being discarded. Thankfully we are not mandated to use them. The Logistik website is clunky and badly designed. They would not survive in a retail environment.


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## OldSolduer (21 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> My unit had to create a "DEU Library" so we could kit out some of the new folks so they wouldn't look like ass forbparades and such.
> 
> Any still usable DEU items would be left in the lockers and folks could garb from there. It was far more effective than waiting for Logistik to deliver on time and with the right size


Really? I would find that unacceptable. If a soldier had no DEU they would be on parade in CADPAT. That was the way we ran it in the PRes units I was in in Winnipeg. 
Not a chance I am letting the system off the hook.


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## rmc_wannabe (21 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Really? I would find that unacceptable. If a soldier had no DEU they would be on parade in CADPAT. That was the way we ran it in the PRes units I was in in Winnipeg.
> Not a chance I am letting the system off the hook.


I believe part of the idea was "waste not, want not." to be honest. Better to see Pte Bloggins kitted out properly than finding it on the rack at Value Village for $19.99 once Sgt Smith needs a replacement size.

I am in agreement that the system is responsible for kitting out the troops. Then again, I had to drop $60 bucks to make sure my tunic accouterments were squared away, so 🤷.

I paid more in a year on civvy street ensuring I had proper dress for work than what I have had to spend in 16 years serving the Crown.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Then again, I had to drop $60 bucks to make sure my tunic accouterments were squared away, so 🤷.


_RCCS Collar Dog memes enter the chat_


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## OldSolduer (21 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I am in agreement that the system is responsible for kitting out the troops. Then again, I had to drop $60 bucks to make sure my tunic accouterments were squared away, so 🤷.


Regimental or Corps accoutrements are a different kettle of fish. The collar dogs I used to wear as a Patricia and the hat badge purchased were far superior to the issue stuff.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Ah, but how about flying clothing that's CADPAT?


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Regimental or Corps accoutrements are a different kettle of fish. The collar dogs I used to wear as a Patricia and the hat badge purchased were far superior to the issue stuff.


For context, the "collar dog meme" sprang from this gem of a thread in CAF Reddit.

Essentially, RCCS switched collar dogs and their RSM forced everyone to buy them by X date because none are avail through Supply.


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## rmc_wannabe (21 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> _RCCS Collar Dog memes enter the chat_


I bought mine because my Jimmy's died an honourable death the night before Remembrance Day 2021. 

The approach of some within the RCCS towards that whole thing embarrasses most of us. I'm glad it was quashed quickly by the Corps CWO.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I bought mine because my Jimmy's died an honourable death the night before Remembrance Day 2021.
> 
> The approach of some within the RCCS towards that whole thing embarrasses most of us. I'm glad it was quashed quickly by the Corps CWO.


I'm glad too - didn't realize the Corps CWO put their foot down on it.

Again...something about CAF Reddit being wrong...


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## Halifax Tar (21 Oct 2022)

markppcli said:


> Logistic Unicorp can’t be much worse than Peerless surely?
> 
> What I like about this is that we’ll see a shift towards ordering more of clothing. This should allow us to draw down the size of base clothing stores, and better serve the reserves. It should also free up some PYs in time. While I wouldn’t recommend Reddit for a whole lot generally, it’s very toxic, and memebe in there went into some detail about how hopelessly outdated the main depot in Montreal is, to that point it’s basically infixable without shutting it down. Outsourcing distribution means they’ll be forced to take it on which should be a positive.



@MJP we play in the same world. 

Should our depots be completely civilian?  

Honest fault of mine is I have very little under the first line of supply in my career.  So I have to wonder if our 3rd lines and beyond wouldn't be better served being full on civilian organizations. 

Interested in your thoughts and opinions.


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## Maxman1 (21 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> In fairness, the current NCDs(old?) are provided by Logistik Unicorp... I'm hoping to hold onto the NCDs for a few more years, as the new version does not appeal to me in the slightest.



Why? You mean you don't want to look like a Bond villain henchman?


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## rmc_wannabe (21 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> @MJP we play in the same world.
> 
> Should our depots be completely civilian?
> 
> ...


Not in the realm, however, I will offer a cautionary tale of over civilianizing 3rd line and beyond.

The SSC and SMC models of delivery for IT, Network, and Cyber Security has had a direct operational impact on the CAF. While it has provided the centralized, consolidated solution to most of our "issues" (funding constraints), it has severely limited our ability to approach issues with the flexibility and rapidity our commanders expect.

If you take the lessons learned from that endeavor and apply it to logistics, you will see a small need for a "QRF" ability for operational and priority logistics. Don't ever relinquish that ability, because as we have seen in the IT world, you can't take back what you give away.


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## MJP (21 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> @MJP we play in the same world.
> 
> Should our depots be completely civilian?
> 
> ...


No, I think it is every important to keep a decent ratio of military within the 3rd line including the ADM(Mat) world as it maintains ties to the CAF and injects a certain raison d'etre into organizations who through complacency may lose sight of the fact that they exist to support CAF operations

That isn't to say that the civilian staff at either depot (or the CFADs) do not work hard to support CAF operations either, as on a individual level or at as a group I have seen them come together and get things done for the folks doing the business. Leaving ADM(Mat) aside 3rd line is really the last bastion of CAF influence on the day to day Defence Supply Chain  and keeping the CoC and some of the key folks in their military allows it to remain responsive to CAF demands and by proxy accountable.  It it that flexibility aspect that @rmc_wannabe mentions in tier post that we IMHO need at our 3rd line orgs

Besides, if there are no Cpl/MCpls who is going to do Duty HPR MMT? Although is there really a need for a duty HPR MMT if there is no way to ship the item until the next business day?


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## Halifax Tar (21 Oct 2022)

MJP said:


> No, I think it is every important to keep a decent ratio of military within the 3rd line including the ADM(Mat) world as it maintains ties to the CAF and injects a certain raison d'etre into organizations who through complacency may lose sight of the fact that they exist to support CAF operations
> 
> That isn't to say that the civilian staff at either depot (or the CFADs) do not work hard to support CAF operations either, as on a individual level or at as a group I have seen them come together and get things done for the folks doing the business. Leaving ADM(Mat) aside 3rd line is really the last bastion of CAF influence on the day to day Defence Supply Chain  and keeping the CoC and some of the key folks in their military allows it to remain responsive to CAF demands and by proxy accountable.  It it that flexibility aspect that @rmc_wannabe mentions in tier post that we IMHO need at our 3rd line orgs
> 
> Besides, if there are no Cpl/MCpls who is going to do Duty HPR MMT? Although is there really a need for a duty HPR MMT if there is no way to ship the item until the next business day?



Thanks MJP, much appreciated.

Your Duty Storesman question had be raised before.  Some habits are hard to break.


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## dimsum (21 Oct 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> Why? You mean you don't want to look like a Bond villain henchman?


It's the current CADPAT, in black.


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## MJP (21 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Thanks MJP, much appreciated.
> 
> Your Duty Storesman question had be raised before.  Some habits are hard to break.



There is a time and place to break the glass and have 3rd line provide something after hours.  Those situations likely fall into .5%ish of all after hours calls. Think SAR asset down and the unit has a person that will pick up the part and relay it to the unit.


Most of them end up being the CA thinking an exercise is important

Most other things can wait until the next business day and shipment by fedex


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## Halifax Tar (21 Oct 2022)

MJP said:


> There is a time and place to break the glass and have 3rd line provide something after hours.  Those situations likely fall into .5%ish of all after hours calls. Think SAR asset down and the unit has a person that will pick up the part and relay it to the unit.
> 
> 
> Most of them end up being the CA thinking an exercise is important
> ...



The Navy is the same way.

We will sail thousands of miles away from our material support and then wonder why it takes days or weeks to move materials through multiple countries customs and cross oceans.

And then on my last deployment add in a global pandemic that shut everything down on us. 

Or the engineering officer being pissed because there is no update on their HPR 3 hours after they submitted it.  Waking people up at o'dark early is an exercise in futility when nothing is flying out of Halifax 8 to 10 hours, if even that day at all.

The dark art of Logistics.


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## dapaterson (21 Oct 2022)

"Where is X?"

"We were never told there was a requirement for X."

"Everybody knows I need X!"

"For the past five days, at the Log Brief, when we asked about any outstanding requirements, or additional needs, when you never asked about this, and never approached anyone about it..."

Commander: "Why didn't you support them with X like they needed?"


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## Halifax Tar (21 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> "Where is X?"
> 
> "We were never told there was a requirement for X."
> 
> ...



We need to go for beers.


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## dapaterson (21 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We need to go for beers.



Two beers per soldier aged 18 and above for the endex smoker (Quebec).  In the training area in Valcartier.  Which has lots and lots of access roads.


Next morning: Sgt A, last night I signed for 216 beer and am responsible to return 216 empties.

Sgt A: Yes, sir, they're right here.

Me: Sgt A, in five minutes I will come back and collect 216 empties.

Sgt A (puzzled): Sir, they're right here!

Me: Sgt A, in five minutes I will come back and collect _exactly_ 216 empties.

Sgt A (looks at large pile of cases, does a little math): Right sir, got it.


Five minutes later, the pile being remarkably smaller, I collected my 216 empties.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Two beers per soldier aged 18 and above for the endex smoker (Quebec).  In the training area in Valcartier.  Which has lots and lots of access roads.
> 
> 
> Next morning: Sgt A, last night I signed for 216 beer and am responsible to return 216 empties.


Are you friggin' kidding me???


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## dapaterson (21 Oct 2022)

Late 90s.  Paranoid assholes in positions of authority.

We won't talk FOA vs TD...  or getting into policy arguments with superiors over a minor difference in an English vs French version that would give a handful of soldiers a bit of extra money.

That whole exercise was a reminder that "I love the fucking army, because the army loves fucking me."


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## MJP (21 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> It
> 
> 
> dapaterson said:
> ...


I see you have met 3VP.......

My fav urban legend is a phone call from their Ops O to the Bde staff asking what is required for as visit to the USA

Bde staff: just fill out the visit clearance request VCR and we will staff it.

ops O: ok but can that be done before the plane lands in an hour?


There is an element of truth in that legend 😀


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## dapaterson (21 Oct 2022)

Prebief: Me, in the lead vehicle, senior person in the convoy, am told "Don't worry, the LO has coordinated the ground movement of your advance party, including all weapons and ammunition.  The folks at the border know all about it."

Me, in the lead vehicle, senior person in the convoy "What do you mean, US Customs and Border Patrol that neither you nor any of your staff know anything about our cross border movement?"


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## OldSolduer (21 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I bought mine because my Jimmy's died an honourable death the night before Remembrance Day 2021.
> 
> The approach of some within the RCCS towards that whole thing embarrasses most of us. I'm glad it was quashed quickly by the Corps CWO.


OK refresh my memory - what happened?


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## PuckChaser (22 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> OK refresh my memory - what happened?


Despite RCCS direction that new RCCS/CRTC collar dogs were an optional item until sufficient stock in supply system, unit RSM last year decides to order entire unit to buy them. RCCS CWO has to get involved before RSM backs down. Flash forward 18 months later, there is still no stock in the supply system to my knowledge.


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## rmc_wannabe (22 Oct 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Despite RCCS direction that new RCCS/CRTC collar dogs were an optional item until sufficient stock in supply system, unit RSM last year decides to order entire unit to buy them. RCCS CWO has to get involved before RSM backs down. Flash forward 18 months later, there is still no stock in the supply system to my knowledge.


100 percent accuracy.


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## dapaterson (22 Oct 2022)

Let's make changes, announce it, then inform the supply system who will tell us what best case timelines will be, which don't align with our plan, because we never considered acquisition and distribution as potential limiting factors because obviously this is more important than anything else the supply system could possibly be doing.


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## PuckChaser (22 Oct 2022)

There are 3300 RegF Sigs PYs. At $19.95 a pair someone could just cut a cheque for $70,000 and buy everyone a set. Instead, PSPC will require a SRCL and Disabilities Act statement, as well as argue we can't tell the bidders exactly what colour blue goes in the flags. It's not a broken supply system, its a broken procurement system that treats $70K of metals badges the same as buying 90 F35s.


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## Furniture (22 Oct 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> There are 3300 RegF Sigs PYs. At $19.95 a pair someone could just cut a cheque for $70,000 and buy everyone a set. Instead, PSPC will require a SRCL and Disabilities Act statement, as well as argue we can't tell the bidders exactly what colour blue goes in the flags. It's not a broken supply system, its a broken procurement system that treats $70K of metals badges the same as buying 90 F35s.


If someone was cynical, they would assume the entire system was designed so nobody could ever be held accountable for any decision.


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## rmc_wannabe (22 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> If someone was cynical, they would assume the entire system was designed so nobody could ever be held accountable for any decision.


The issue with this (like most things procurement related) is that a need arises, it's pushed up to procurement to fulfill that need, it becomes scrutinized to the point of incompetence, the procurement gets bogged down, and the troops end up paying out of pocket because the need hasn't gone away. 

70K for new collar badges is a drop in the bucket, but 20 bucks a pair to a PI 3 Pte hitting the food bank in Kingston may be a Bridge Too Far. 

I guarantee that this almost $4B going to Logistik Unicorps for operational clothing would have been better spent developing a "BOOTFORGEN"esque SoI criteria for troops to find their gear, order on Amazon, and get reimbursed for it. 

But in all of this, it doesn't put money back in the coffers of TBS so it dies on the vine while Bloggins gets what he needs with his own King's Shilling.

Criminal


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## Maxman1 (22 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> It's the current CADPAT, in black.



Yes, I am aware. I was joking that in black, it looks like something you'd see on henchmen being gunned down by James Bond.

(Also, just to be pedantic, CADPAT is the camouflage pattern - *Ca*nadian *D*isruptive *Pat*tern. The new style combats are officially the Enhanced Combat Uniform, or ECU, but "combats" gets the point across just fine)


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## Kirkhill (22 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> The issue with this (like most things procurement related) is that a need arises, it's pushed up to procurement to fulfill that need, it becomes scrutinized to the point of incompetence, the procurement gets bogged down, and the troops end up paying out of pocket because the need hasn't gone away.
> 
> 70K for new collar badges is a drop in the bucket, but 20 bucks a pair to a PI 3 Pte hitting the food bank in Kingston may be a Bridge Too Far.
> 
> ...





> For political observers, it is often hard to pinpoint what exactly Jagmeet Singh stands for. Other, that is, than nice suits, flogging furniture on Instagram, and TikTok videos. But whatever political commitments he lacks, it is clear what he abhors most of all: responsibility, particularly his own.











						Adam Pankratz: Jagmeet Singh is the standard bearer for Parliament's accountability problem
					

It's often hard to pinpoint what exactly the NDP leader stands for. But it's clear what he abhors most: responsibility




					nationalpost.com


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## markppcli (22 Oct 2022)

MJP said:


> I have until very recently worked in the depot at 7 CFSD now directly work with both of them and what that guy said was essentially wrong/entirely misleading.
> 
> There are inefficiencies at the depots but not in the way outlined by that person nor is it irreparably broken.


Thanks I appreciate the correction


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## OldSolduer (22 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> If someone was cynical, they would assume the entire system was designed so nobody could ever be held accountable for any decision.


I will definitely agree with that


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## Halifax Tar (22 Oct 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> There are 3300 RegF Sigs PYs. At $19.95 a pair someone could just cut a cheque for $70,000 and buy everyone a set. Instead, PSPC will require a SRCL and Disabilities Act statement, as well as argue we can't tell the bidders exactly what colour blue goes in the flags. It's not a broken supply system, its a broken procurement system that treats $70K of metals badges the same as buying 90 F35s.



I've argued this very point for years.  The CFSS manages the materials in CAF inventories and the procurement system fills that inventory.


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## kev994 (22 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> What does this mean for BOOTFORGEN?


This is the more important part. This could destroy the only thing the CAF has gotten right in… ever. Everyone has been hoping that we never get to the next phase. What’s the odds that this outfit is going to carry Lowa Renegades in 8 Wide?


----------



## dimsum (22 Oct 2022)

kev994 said:


> This is the more important part. This could destroy the only thing the CAF has gotten right in… every. Everyone has been hoping that we never get to the next phase. What’s the odds that this outfit is going to carry Lowa Renegades in 8 Wide?


Wasn't the original intent to have a list of approved boots as the "next phase"?  

But yes, BOOTFORGEN is one of the few changes that no one seems to complain about.  I'm sure there's some dinosaur grumbling about lack of polish though.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I bought mine because my Jimmy's died an honourable death the night before Remembrance Day 2021.
> 
> The approach of some within the RCCS towards that whole thing embarrasses most of us. I'm glad it was quashed quickly by the Corps CWO.



What thing was that?

Got it from Puckchasers answer.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (22 Oct 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> What thing was that?


RCCS received authorization to return to our traditional Collar Badges in 2020. The prototypes were being sold for purchase through our kit shop and were specifically for if folks wanted them as optional wear. D RCCS stated they were not to be ordered to be worn until they were available from Clothing Stores.

A unit RSM tried to order members to purchase them to have uniformity using the argument that members were receiving enough Compensation and Benefits to afford them. 

Well the anonymous post on reddit attracted some attention from the Corps leadership who was very much not impressed with this and the Corps CWO was very quick to clarify with said RSM the policy on the change. 

It's been a source of ridicule ever since.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2022)

Copy, Tks.  I didn’t update my above post fast enough!  😬

This highlights another issue that I think exists. Why would the Corps CWO need to become involved in something a unit CO could resolve (unless it was the unit CO direction thru the RSM)?  

CWOs don’t command;  local  Officers can easily override/quash bad decisions made at the Chief level.


----------



## kev994 (22 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Wasn't the original intent to have a list of approved boots as the "next phase"?
> 
> But yes, BOOTFORGEN is one of the few changes that no one seems to complain about.  I'm sure there's some dinosaur grumbling about lack of polish though.


We’ve never been able to fully/properly implement anything in a timely manner. It would be unfortunate if this were the only exception.


----------



## dimsum (22 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Well the anonymous post on reddit attracted some attention from the Corps leadership who was very much not impressed with this and the Corps CWO was very quick to clarify with said RSM the policy on the change.


"Some attention" is a bit of an understatement.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> "Some attention" is a bit of an understatement.



I can honestly say this is the first I’d heard of it but I am not a regular on Reddit…


----------



## dimsum (22 Oct 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I can honestly say this is the first I’d heard of it but I am not a regular on Reddit…


Probably better that way for blood pressure and/or rage reasons. 

It's great for quick admin help and stuff, but it's toxic in the "everyone more senior than a Cpl is an idiot and doesn't know what they're doing" way.  They also have a huge hate on for this site bc apparently we're all dinosaurs on here who need to retire.

Their Salty Cpl Saturday memes are really good though - that's what I'm really there for.


----------



## Maxman1 (22 Oct 2022)

I haven't really been on it since I was banned for some reason.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (22 Oct 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Copy, Tks.  I didn’t update my above post fast enough!  😬
> 
> This highlights another issue that I think exists. Why would the Corps CWO need to become involved in something a unit CO could resolve (unless it was the unit CO direction thru the RSM)?
> 
> CWOs don’t command;  local  Officers can easily override/quash bad decisions made at the Chief level.


RSMs are the authority on the 4 Ds within the Army. They don't have command, however, they wield a lot of influence, especially within the "Command Team" model we seem so hot and horny for over the past 10-15 years.

Having a "peer to peer" conversation from the Corps CWO (who was, conveniently the one who helped draft the directive in the first place) may have been a way to save face without having Mom and Dad fighting in front of the kids. 

Army life is it's own unique sub culture it seems within the CAF.


----------



## dimsum (22 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Army life is it's own unique sub culture it seems within the CAF.


Well, each service has its own sub-culture.  

And there are differences within services, like aircrew vs non-aircrew subcultures.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> RSMs are the authority on the 4 Ds within the Army. They don't have command, however, they wield a lot of influence, especially within the "Command Team" model we seem so hot and horny for over the past 10-15 years.



I spent 17 years in tan and green DEU, I get the way it works.  I’m saying RSMs aren’t the overall authority;  265 even tells us this.  We as the CAF just need to follow the pub.   Officers can, do and should override stupid things like this at local levels.  

I’m a believer that the CT Concept has gone too far with the NCM half thinking they command too.




rmc_wannabe said:


> Having a "peer to peer" conversation from the Corps CWO (who was, conveniently the one who helped draft the directive in the first place) may have been a way to save face without having Mom and Dad fighting in front of the kids.
> 
> Army life is it's own unique sub culture it seems within the CAF.



If the directive was issued by the RCCS Boss, the unit CO should and could have sorted the RSM out.   

If that embarrasses the RSM, that would be their own cause.  I don’t believe COs should ever be hesitant at controlling their subs at any point, including CWOs and other Officers.  

If they are gunshy at that task…


----------



## dimsum (22 Oct 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> If the directive was issued by the RCCS Boss, the unit CO should and could have sorted the RSM out.
> 
> If that embarrasses the RSM, that would be their own cause.  I don’t believe COs should ever be hesitant at controlling their subs at any point, including CWOs and other Officers.
> 
> If they are gunshy at that task…


I have no idea how the timeline transpired but I wouldn't be surprised if the unit CO hadn't even heard of it in time until:

The Reddit post was made
Corps staff read said post
Corps staff told the Corps CWO
Unit COs are generally pretty busy people and "buttons and bows" stuff is probably delegated to their RSM and/or Adjt.  It's totally possible that points 1-3 happened before the CO even caught wind of the RSM pulling this crap.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2022)

Just to add, and i know most are famil with this;  I want to highlight the responsibility of Officers wrt dress.  I for one wish we’d start following our own policies and stop making excuses for failures when we don’t follow them like “it’s always been that way”. 

CONTROL​
Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates…
Commanders shall maintain the standards at all times…
Officers cannot delegate their leadership responsibilities. They are *assisted* by warrant and non- commissioned officers, who control standards and compliance by all of their subordinates.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I have no idea how the timeline transpired but I wouldn't be surprised if the unit CO hadn't even heard of it in time until:
> 
> The Reddit post was made
> Corps staff read said post
> ...



That highlights another fault in the CT
Concept, to me.

My solution to the “not everyone has collar dogs” problem, if I was the RSM, would be  to suggest to the Adjt/DCO/CO “if not everyone has them, no one wears them”.   Uniformity issue addressed, decision made by the correct authority.   I’ve done my job as one of those Warrant type ranks - advised.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Oct 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> That highlights another fault in the CT
> Concept, to me.
> 
> My solution to the “not everyone has collar dogs” problem, if I was the RSM, would be  to suggest to the Adjt/DCO/CO “if not everyone has them, no one wears them”.   Uniformity issue addressed, decision made by the correct authority.   I’ve done my job as one of those Warrant type ranks - advised.



This was similar to the unit PT strip shmozzle when I was pretending to be green. 

Someone would think they can order people to buy a track suit or some such thing.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (22 Oct 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> That highlights another fault in the CT
> Concept, to me.
> 
> My solution to the “not everyone has collar dogs” problem, if I was the RSM, would be  to suggest to the Adjt/DCO/CO “if not everyone has them, no one wears them”.   Uniformity issue addressed, decision made by the correct authority.   I’ve done my job as one of those Warrant type ranks - advised.


I agree. This whole thing was bungled from day one and I wholeheartedly agree that the Command Team structure has caused this kind of ambiguity to persist. 

There's the way things should be, the way things shouldn't be, and the way things are. The way things are a usually a combination for the first two, in varying degrees left and right.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (22 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> This was similar to the unit PT strip shmozzle when I was pretending to be green.
> 
> Someone would think they can order people to buy a track suit or some such thing.


Don't get me started on that. As a Brigade Siggie, every 2 years hopping to a new out det was an expensive endeavor to avoid the ire of the RSM. 

I also feel NPF monies are better spent on morale and welfare items than ensuring uniformity of dress for Unit PT.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> This was similar to the unit PT strip shmozzle when I was pretending to be green.
> 
> Someone would think they can order people to buy a track suit or some such thing.



I still remember being a young Reserve Jnr rank and “doing what I was told” including spending my own money on garrison dress belt buckles and T shirts.   

It’s been going on for far far too long.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Don't get me started on that. As a Brigade Siggie, every 2 years hopping to a new out det was an expensive endeavor to avoid the ire of the RSM.
> 
> I also feel NPF monies are better spent on morale and welfare items than ensuring uniformity of dress for Unit PT.



I hear ya. 

NPF is highly underused and even more misunderstood. 

I keep the NPF manual on my desk top.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (24 Oct 2022)

can fix the PT gear issue

everyone is issued jogging pants, t shirt, and running shoes just like in basic. 
regimental funds can be used to issue Regimental T shirts etc.


----------



## KevinB (24 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> This was similar to the unit PT strip shmozzle when I was pretending to be green.
> 
> Someone would think they can order people to buy a track suit or some such thing.


IIRC We got our initial PPCLI PT gear issued (Regimental Fund?)- follow on items where at ones own expense.
  Honestly it really wasn't a source of complaint due to the whole clothing upkeep allowance back then.

I really don't see how PT Gear should be an issue -- but I also don't see ANY point to large group PT either, the CAF would be much better set doing smaller sized PT in fitness level set groups.
   BN and higher level PT is just ridiculous - either the CO is a fitness king and drags their unit over hells half acre and they look like crap, or they aren't, and then half the unit doesn't get anything out of the PT -- it's even more inane at Bde level.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> IIRC We got our initial PPCLI PT gear issued (Regimental Fund?)- follow on items where at ones own expense.
> Honestly it really wasn't a source of complaint due to the whole clothing upkeep allowance back then.
> 
> I really don't see how PT Gear should be an issue -- but I also don't see ANY point to large group PT either, the CAF would be much better set doing smaller sized PT in fitness level set groups.
> BN and higher level PT is just ridiculous - either the CO is a fitness king and drags their unit over hells half acre and they look like crap, or they aren't, and then half the unit doesn't get anything out of the PT -- it's even more inane at Bde level.



We used to do a battalion 10 miler once a week, and Pl/Coy PT here and there during the week.

That seemed to work well. But the regiment's DNA was programmed for that from the lowest to highest levels, so it was easy to manage.


----------



## KevinB (24 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> We used to do a battalion 10 miler once a week, and Pl/Coy PT here and there during the week.
> 
> That seemed to work well. But the regiment's DNA was programmed for that from the lowest to highest levels, so it was easy to manage.


Honestly I think even Platoon PT is too large to give most folks a good workout.  
  It may have changed - but most years I saw (1987-2004) things where focused on Rucksack Marches - or runs.
Very little circuit training, and virtually no upper body work outside Chin Ups's and Push Ups

I always figured the best PT schedule to joining a team that allowed for individual PT.
  Run mornings, Swim at noon, Weights / Ruckruns in the evening.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Honestly I think even Platoon PT is too large to give most folks a good workout.
> It may have changed - but most years I saw (1987-2004) things where focused on Rucksack Marches - or runs.
> Very little circuit training, and virtually no upper body work outside Chin Ups's and Push Ups
> 
> ...



And, as I recall, if I had allowed 'individual PT' for my platoon that would probably have resulted in me and the Pl 2IC getting some good fitness in running around trying to keep my troops out of the pubs


----------



## KevinB (24 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> And, as I recall, if I had allowed 'individual PT' for my platoon that would probably have resulted in me and the Pl 2IC getting some good fitness in running around trying to keep my troops out of the pubs


Yeah, there needs to be repercussions for failure to actually do PT.


----------



## Furniture (24 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Yeah, there needs to be repercussions for failure to actually do PT.


Charge the first few who fail to do it, people will catch on. 

In my experience people live up or down to the expectations placed on them. The CAF loves to lower expectations and treat people like children.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> Charge the first few who fail to do it, people will catch on.
> 
> In my experience people live up or down to the expectations placed on them. The CAF loves to lower expectations and treat people like children.



Anecdotally....

Alot of those I've seen in Class B land, who were treated like adults and given the first hour of the day to do PT before work, did not do PT.

Some got an extra smoke in though...


----------



## KevinB (24 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Anecdotally....
> 
> Alot of those I've seen in Class B land, who were treated like adults and given the first hour of the day to do PT before work, did not do PT.
> 
> Some got an extra smoke in though...


I have a rather dim view of people on permanent class B as often they are exactly the wrong sort of people for those spots. Generally not the types do you want in any sort of permanent position


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> I have a rather dim view of people on permanent class B as often they are exactly the wrong sort of people for those spots. Generally not the types do you want in any sort of permanent position



Like anywhere else there's good and not so good. It's the quality of the leadership that makes the difference, of course


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## KevinB (24 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Like anywhere else there's good and not so good. It's the quality of the leadership that makes the difference, of course


Which often is the issue itself…


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Oct 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> There are 3300 RegF Sigs PYs. At $19.95 a pair someone could just cut a cheque for $70,000 and buy everyone a set. Instead, PSPC will require a SRCL and Disabilities Act statement, as well as argue we can't tell the bidders exactly what colour blue goes in the flags. It's not a broken supply system, its a broken procurement system that treats $70K of metals badges the same as buying 90 F35s.


Don't forget an Indigenous procurement assessment, and a GBA+ analysis (sadly not kidding). 90 F35s would also have a lot more, as you also need to do a sustainment business case assessment (SBCA), IRB/ITBs/VP, treasuy board submissions and then have it run through the monthly DPS gauntlet.

And then there is always the chance of literally anyone submitting a CITT claim which shuts down procurement (valid complaint or not).

But as long as it's a 'fair, open and transparent' RFP process boxes are checked.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (25 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Don't forget an Indigenous procurement assessment, and a GBA+ analysis (sadly not kidding). 90 F35s would also have a lot more, as you also need to do a sustainment business case assessment (SBCA), IRB/ITBs/VP, treasuy board submissions and then have it run through the monthly DPS gauntlet.
> 
> And then there is always the chance of literally anyone submitting a CITT claim which shuts down procurement (valid complaint or not).
> 
> But as long as it's a 'fair, open and transparent' RFP process boxes are checked.


This post right here explains why we need to bring back a separate Ordinance organization within DND that is out of arms reach of PSPC and TBS. 

We're not sourcing office furniture for a Fisheries workplace. Most military items we buy cannot be sourced from Canadian, Indigenous, or Green companies, and I would love to see a GBA+ Assessment on an NLAW or Javelin. 

This is what happens when you let burecrats rule by committee


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> This post right here explains why we need to bring back a separate Ordinance organization within DND that is out of arms reach of PSPC and TBS.
> 
> We're not sourcing office furniture for a Fisheries workplace. Most military items we buy cannot be sourced from Canadian, Indigenous, or Green companies, and I would love to see a GBA+ Assessment on an NLAW or Javelin.
> 
> This is what happens when you let burecrats rule by committee


Agree, but I think a standalone procurement organization for DND would simply inherit the same policies and requirements unless we had someone that really knows the GoC with the giant intestinal fortitude to jettison a lot of it, or at least change the 'musts' into 'mays'.

GBA+ can actually be pretty useful for equipment people use/wear; it's a lot easier to make sure something fits people if you look at what size your people are. That all trickles down into basic human factors engineering, which is things like monitor height, spacing etc, which seems stupid until you see something well done compared to something poorly done. But completely stupid for buying widgets and components for an existing system.

The indigenous procurement requirements are just frustrating; outside of big projects that have ITBs, which can include incentives for including Indigenous businesses (which has lead to a number of companies supplying NSS ships). For most procurements though we have no capability to direct anything, and it's actually against CITT and GoC procurement rules for lowest compliant bidders. It's really just a check in the box exercise that does nothing but take time, so it's pretty performative. That feedback keeps getting submitted but we still have to fill out the forms that we can't do anything with (and don't have HR resources anyway to figure out if there is any indigenous company that could fill the need anyway).


----------



## KevinB (25 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Agree, but I think a standalone procurement organization for DND would simply inherit the same policies and requirements unless we had someone that really knows the GoC with the giant intestinal fortitude to jettison a lot of it, or at least change the 'musts' into 'mays'.
> 
> GBA+ can actually be pretty useful for equipment people use/wear; it's a lot easier to make sure something fits people if you look at what size your people are. That all trickles down into basic human factors engineering, which is things like monitor height, spacing etc, which seems stupid until you see something well done compared to something poorly done. But completely stupid for buying widgets and components for an existing system.


Garbage in, garbage out.  The original Tac vest was a human factors input piece.   If the people designing it don’t understand the actual role, the equipment is garbage - the fact people had the gall to sit in front of Infantry NCO’s and claim it was more efficient and we just where doing it correctly, well that left me with a pretty poor taste in my mouth.  



Navy_Pete said:


> The indigenous procurement requirements are just frustrating; outside of big projects that have ITBs, which can include incentives for including Indigenous businesses (which has lead to a number of companies supplying NSS ships). For most procurements though we have no capability to direct anything, and it's actually against CITT and GoC procurement rules for lowest compliant bidders. It's really just a check in the box exercise that does nothing but take time, so it's pretty performative. That feedback keeps getting submitted but we still have to fill out the forms that we can't do anything with (and don't have HR resources anyway to figure out if there is any indigenous company that could fill the need anyway).


There are generally 3 ways to run an acquisitions contract. 
1) Best Performer
2) Best Value to the Government 
3) Lowest Price Technically acceptable.  

This excludes Sole Source via JNA (Justification, Notice Award)  

BP is very easy, but very few entities are allowed to do that, and generally those are NDA contracts for Black entities.  

BV can be terribly confused, because if the weighting of all the input criteria aren’t public and pre existing, it’s a train wreck.  BV’s should include the different performance criteria, costing, support as applicable and industrial offsets etc.  

LPTC, while theoretically very easy, unless the SoW is written very very clearly, one tends to get trash, and if your SoW/Requirements are too limited it’s viewed as a scam on a Sole Source without proper justification.


----------



## MJP (25 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Garbage in, garbage out.  The original Tac vest was a human factors input piece.   If the people designing it don’t understand the actual role, the equipment is garbage - the fact people had the gall to sit in front of Infantry NCO’s and claim it was more efficient and we just where doing it correctly, well that left me with a pretty poor taste in my mouth.


We the CAF team played a large role in the trials saying yup it is GTG.  Like many trials we paid lip service to it and paid the price.  It didn't help that the most recent widescale operational experiences were in Bosnia wearing the Tac Vest predecessor that was pure hot garbage (why yes I would love a big ass pouch just under my neck in the back) and a good portion of the user feedback was from non-combat arms folks.  So much so that when they rolled out the Tac Vest despite it being an ergonomic nightmare that wasn't compatible with anything industry, we all gloomed on to it!

It is irony that many folks that many folks moved to TT MAV or equivalent which was for all intents and purposes just modern 82 pattern webbing!

Like boots the worse parts is we are at conservatively 12-15ish years since the deficiencies (beginning of our mission in the southern AFG for arguments sake) and we still don't have a solution on the table.  Lots of small buys and ad hoc things here and there but the CA has dithered away so much time trying to figure this one out to the point of it becoming the absurd.

This was the answer from the Technical Authority from a UCR in 2007

_THE TECHNICAL AUTHORITY DSSPM 2-15 HAS RECEIVED THE COMMENTS REGARDING TACTICAL LOAD CARRYING NSN: 8416-21-920-3711 FROM CLOTH THE SOLDIERS PROJECTS OFFICER  DSSPM 8-9/C IS AS FOLLOWS:

THE TACTICAL VEST MEET ALL THE REQUIREMENTS, DESIGN CRITERIA AND GOALS THAT CLOTHE THE SOLDIER WAS TO ACHIEVED. THE TV GAINED A 80+% ACCEPTANCE FROM THE TROOPS. THE AFGHAN MISSION IS FAR MORE DANGEROUS, DEMANDING AND CHALLENGING TO CANADIAN SOLDIERS THAN THE PREVIOUS PEACE KEEPING MISSIONS ON WHICH THE TV REQUIREMENTS WERE BASED ON. CERTAINLY, THE TV VEST REQUIREMENTS ANSWERED A GENERAL ARMY FITTING PHILOSOPHY. WE CAN SAY THAT THE TV STILL HAS A ROLE IN THE ARMY. 

HOWEVER, THE AFGHANISTAN MISSION REQUIRES SPECIFIC LOAD CARRYING CAPABILITIES SPECIALLY FOR THE SOLDIER AT THE FRONT END. CONSEQUENTLY, THE PLEAS FOR CHANGES TO THE TV COMING FROM THE THEATRE ARE VALID. AN ANALYSIS OF THE OVERALL MISSION LOAD CARRIAGE REQUIREMENT IS BEING CONDUCTED TO PROVIDE MISSION SPECIFIC LOAD CARRYING CAPABILITY. MOTS AND COTS CAN FULFILL THESE IMMEDIATE AND SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS  THE READY AVAILABLE AMMO AND GEAR REQUIREMENT FOR THE AFGHANISTAN MISSION HAVE CHANGED THE NATURE OF THE ORIGINAL REQUIREMENT SET AND REQUIREMENT STATED. THEREFORE, ANY TV DESIGN RESEARCH AND ALTERATION ARE CONSIDERED PRODUCT IMPROVEMENTS AN BY ITS NATURE AN NP FUNCTION._


----------



## KevinB (25 Oct 2022)

MJP said:


> We the CAF team played a large role in the trials saying yup it is GTG.  Like many trials we paid lip service to it and paid the price.  It didn't help that the most recent widescale operational experiences were in Bosnia wearing the Tac Vest predecessor that was pure hot garbage (why yes I would love a big ass pouch just under my neck in the back) and a good portion of the user feedback was from non-combat arms folks.  So much so that when they rolled out the Tac Vest despite it being an ergonomic nightmare that wasn't compatible with anything industry, we all gloomed on to it!
> 
> It is irony that many folks that many folks moved to TT MAV or equivalent which was for all intents and purposes just modern 82 pattern webbing!
> 
> ...


Trials -  yes when the PPCLI or RCR say no to something it’s then sent to the 22eR to be blessed.  
   Or if the Vandoos even consider it hot garbage, it’s sent to a Service BN.   

The fact the CAF designs and acquires gear for non full scale warfare still is mind boggling to me.  Design for war fighting and it can be used for less demanding applications.


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> This post right here explains why _we need to bring back a separate Ordinance organization within DND that is out of arms reach of PSPC and TBS_.
> 
> We're not sourcing office furniture for a Fisheries workplace. Most military items we buy cannot be sourced from Canadian, Indigenous, or Green companies, and I would love to see a GBA+ Assessment on an NLAW or Javelin.
> 
> This is what happens when you let burecrats rule by committee



We had a quite efficient organization about 80 years ago - Department of Munitions and Supply - BUT:

*First*: it needed a real, politically 'popular' crisis (2nd Word War was about big enough) to sustain it; and​*Second*: it too often ran roughshod over good business practices.​​Organizations like PSPC and, especially, TBS, keep admirals and generals in the CAF and senior officials in DND from becoming powerful kleptocrats - which,_ I believe_, is their natural inclination. To that point: quite simply, I'm 100% convinced that at least 95% of all our admirals and generals and likely more than 75% of our senior officials cannot be trusted to manage a lemonade stand on a hot summer day.


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## OldSolduer (25 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> The fact the CAF designs and acquires gear for non full scale warfare still is mind boggling to me.  Design for war fighting and it can be used for less demanding applications.


I am still puzzled as to why the CAF acquires equipment - like trucks - that are somewhat underpowered to start with, then up armor them, putting even more strain on the power train. AND then wonder "why are these vehicles breaking down all the time"?


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## KevinB (25 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I am still puzzled as to why the CAF acquires equipment - like trucks - that are somewhat underpowered to start with, then up armor them, putting even more strain on the power train. AND then wonder "why are these vehicles breaking down all the time"?


Garbage In = Garbage Out 
   The requirements writers generally haven’t looked at actual deployment conditions.

The Iltis with its V-4 was a prime example when the German and Dutch had a 6 cylinder…

It’s not unique to DND though.  Lots of entities don’t use a lot of forethought in requirements, or the requirements are ignored for Political reasons (queue the Griffon).


----------



## Furniture (25 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Garbage In = Garbage Out
> The requirements writers generally haven’t looked at actual deployment conditions.
> 
> The Iltis with its V-4 was a prime example when the German and Dutch had a 6 cylinder…
> ...


I've been dealing with the aftermath of a project that had poorly written requirements, done by non-experts who seemed to think they were experts.


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Garbage in, garbage out.  The original Tac vest was a human factors input piece.   If the people designing it don’t understand the actual role, the equipment is garbage - the fact people had the gall to sit in front of Infantry NCO’s and claim it was more efficient and we just where doing it correctly, well that left me with a pretty poor taste in my mouth.


Had a really interesting discussion with some defence scientist that was involved in one of the kevlar helmet replacements; they had a really interesting anecdote where the design did great on all the bench tests in the spec, then kept breaking in the field. THey went out to see what was happening and realized it was from people using it as a seat (which was no big deal with the steel helmets they were replacing) so they had to add a new requirement.

Always stuck with me, but I think is why you need experienced users in the project side of things, and why it's important to have uniformed people working on our support side in ADM(Mat) doing LCMM jobs.



KevinB said:


> There are generally 3 ways to run an acquisitions contract.
> 1) Best Performer
> 2) Best Value to the Government
> 3) Lowest Price Technically acceptable.
> ...



For sure, fully agree. For 3, even with perfectly clear SoWs (ie 60 of widget x, no substitions allowed) still can be a challenge at times with all the rules and trade agreements.

Really big, long term contracts can incorporate 2) more, but generally I think it's hard with the GoC because we have so many departments involved, so 'best value' will have contradicting requirements.

The application of 'relational contracting' is an interest one too; basically means that either party can walk away if they can't work together and the dispute resolution doesn't work. I think we would have exercised that a few times.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> This post right here explains why we need to bring back a separate Ordinance organization within DND that is out of arms reach of PSPC and TBS.
> 
> We're not sourcing office furniture for a Fisheries workplace. Most military items we buy cannot be sourced from Canadian, Indigenous, or Green companies, and I would love to see a GBA+ Assessment on an NLAW or Javelin.
> 
> This is what happens when you let burecrats rule by committee



We used to have this:









						Department of Munitions and Supply - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




And then this:






						Department of Defence Production (Canada) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




And then this:






						Minister of Supply and Services - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




We also had this:









						Imperial Munitions Board - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We used to have this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If we're reverting ranks and uniforms post Unification, can we do structures next?

Maintain what works, revert back to what hasn't become a monster with 2 heads?


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> If we're reverting ranks and uniforms post Unification, can we do structures next?
> 
> Maintain what works, revert back to what has become a monster with 2 heads?



I'm just saying we used to have organizations that worked for our procurement and supply of material.

It might also help if some GOFOs would lay their swords on the table and give the Gov a public blasting for the state of our equipment.

Be damned their careers.  And then hide behind the protection of a media who loves controversy.  We should name a new ship HMCS VAdm Norman.

Sacrifice yourself for the good of the organization.  I'm told to do it all the time, lead the way GOFOs.


----------



## Edward Campbell (26 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm just saying we used to have organizations that worked for our procurement and supply of material.
> 
> It might also help if some GOFOs would lay their swords on the table and give the Gov a public blasting for the state of our equipment.
> 
> ...



Ah, but this is the modern, 21st century CF and what's sauce for the goose is definitely not applicable to the ganders.


----------



## KevinB (26 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Ah, but this is the modern, 21st century CF and what's sauce for the goose is definitely not applicable to the ganders.


Sad and telling.


----------



## KevinB (26 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Had a really interesting discussion with some defence scientist that was involved in one of the kevlar helmet replacements; they had a really interesting anecdote where the design did great on all the bench tests in the spec, then kept breaking in the field. THey went out to see what was happening and realized it was from people using it as a seat (which was no big deal with the steel helmets they were replacing) so they had to add a new requirement.


I would have just put out a ‘don’t sit on helmet’ message 🤷‍♂️


Navy_Pete said:


> Always stuck with me, but I think is why you need experienced users in the project side of things, and why it's important to have uniformed people working on our support side in ADM(Mat) doing LCMM jobs.


110%.  In the ideal world each unit will have a G-8 Force Mod cell (a SGT/WO), and at Bde there will be a larger group to collate those that has some sort of formal Combat Capabilities Development training, that can write a formal requirement to go forward from the field force to DLR - IMHO the CAF has it assbackwards in a lot of ways based on my experiences with DLR, who most often are so out of touch with the field force one often wonders if they actually served in the trade they allegedly represent.  




Navy_Pete said:


> For sure, fully agree. For 3, even with perfectly clear SoWs (ie 60 of widget x, no substitions allowed) still can be a challenge at times with all the rules and trade agreements.
> 
> Really big, long term contracts can incorporate 2) more, but generally I think it's hard with the GoC because we have so many departments involved, so 'best value' will have contradicting requirements.
> 
> The application of 'relational contracting' is an interest one too; basically means that either party can walk away if they can't work together and the dispute resolution doesn't work. I think we would have exercised that a few times.


One reason down here there are often dual awards - one entity may not get a single delivery order, but the option is there for the life of the contract.


----------



## Navy_Pete (26 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> I would have just put out a ‘don’t sit on helmet’ message 🤷‍♂️



I guess it was one of those things where they figured it was easier to change the requirement than to have someone forget. Probably indirectly added some weight but maybe made it more durable overall?

Did stick with me though on the importance of meshing actual usage with requirements (even if it means changing usage). On the navy side, means with the major underlying design changes to new ships, we need to look at those and adapt tactics to the equipment, but more in the 'take advantage' of it kind of way, so it's overall an improvement. We do that with weapons and comms but less so with battle damage and fire fighting, as we tend to start with the SOPs from the old ships instead.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Oct 2022)

A little old-school operations research/systems analysis - where you actually go into the "workplace" and observe how things are done, rather than how someone says they ought be done - would be OK, too.


----------



## KevinB (26 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> A little old-school operations research/systems analysis - where you actually go into the "workplace" and observe how things are done, rather than how someone says they ought be done - would be OK, too.


That would involve leaving the cubicle for more than just seeing troops on the parade square to show shiny new kit they won’t see for years…
    Most appear to find the dirt and grime of actual usage to be revolting…


----------



## Underway (12 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Had a really interesting discussion with some defence scientist that was involved in one of the kevlar helmet replacements; they had a really interesting anecdote where the design did great on all the bench tests in the spec, then kept breaking in the field. THey went out to see what was happening and realized it was from people using it as a seat (which was no big deal with the steel helmets they were replacing) so they had to add a new requirement.
> 
> Always stuck with me, but I think is why you need experienced users in the project side of things, and why it's important to have uniformed people working on our support side in ADM(Mat) doing LCMM jobs.



Working in the PMO for the ships was one of these exercises and its why they bring sailors in to review all the designs.  Example in the original 3DM, the chart table on the bridge was located such that if the OOW had to hustle between bridge wings during a person overboard they had a high probability of dislocating their hip, as the chart table jutted out and required them to manouver around it.  I had some chairs moved to allow for a straight line to be taken to avoid this problem.

In this case the design of the space and human factors analysis was just as, if not more important then the equipment meeting the specs.


----------



## CBH99 (13 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm just saying we used to have organizations that worked for our procurement and supply of material.
> 
> It might also help if some GOFOs would lay their swords on the table and give the Gov a public blasting for the state of our equipment.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more, especially now that the government's SOP is well known to both the public and the media.

Take a stand (Make sure you choose the battle wisely) and put the sword on the table.  

After VAdm Norman's fiasco, as well as all of the other occasions where the government has directed the RCMP to investigate this person or that person - only to pay large settlements in the end - I would say the GOFO has a pretty good chance if surviving at this point.  

The fact that the government still hasnt figured out that 'directing the RCMP to target an individual it doesn't like' IS the very definition of political meddling is mind boggling...


----------



## Kirkhill (13 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> I couldn't agree more, especially now that the government's SOP is well known to both the public and the media.
> 
> Take a stand (Make sure you choose the battle wisely) and put the sword on the table.
> 
> ...



Some might be inclined to describe it as authoritarianism.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Nov 2022)

It's only authoritarianism if agencies behave unethically as they are bid.


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Nov 2022)

What I wrote to the MND and others today:



My name is Hamish Seggie. I am a retired soldier with 38 years service. I have served on the Island of Cyprus, Croatia 1993, and Bosnia in 1997. I have also participated with US Forces in Louisiana and California. I retired in 2017 with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer. One of the duties of a CWO is to ensure his or her soldiers are properly trained and their welfare – both physical and mental need are met.

I have to don that rank once more, although I am writing you as a citizen of our nation who has long since retired.

I attended a Change of Command ceremony in Minto Armories in Winnipeg recently. The state of Minto Armories is a facility well beyond its best before date. There are at least two 2.5 metre square holes cut in the floor and now covered with ¾ inch plywood. When I asked why these holes were there I was told there were problems with the pipes under the floor and now there is an asbestos issue.

I don’t think I have to explain to you what long term asbestos exposure can do to the human body. Pulmonary hypertension, Malignant Mesothelioma and Lung cancer are all possible disastrous outcomes if prolonged exposure to asbestos is experienced. This is also a particular concern for the families of those soldiers.



I would ask that the Minister of National Defence, the Critic for National Defence, and indeed the House of Commons find a viable solution to this concern.



Thank you for your service to Canada. It is no less important than the service of our uniformed members.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> What I wrote to the MND and others today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you Jim.

You could have added something like 'times this by about a hundred other armouries and militia training facilities across Canada.'

I wandered through one of local armouries here last week. It looked more like a haunted house.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Thank you Jim.
> 
> You could have added something like 'times this by about a hundred other armouries and militia training facilities across Canada.'
> 
> I wandered through one of local armouries here last week. It looked more like a haunted house.


You’re correct but if I can make Minto a focal point and maybe we can get some traction if others agree and write the MND and their local
MP. 
I’m not trying to make it political. Armouries have been neglected for decades. The ones similar to Minto (1914 I believe) are close to being done


----------



## Zoomie (14 Nov 2022)

Infrastructure is a CAF wide problem.    I work in a Hangar built in the 1950s - it is expected to collapse during a significant seismic event.   We have no plans to replace this building - we just keep upgrading the HVAC and electrical. lipstick on a pig.


----------



## FSTO (14 Nov 2022)

Queen in Regina received new windows this year. Next year will be HVAC, then new plumbing, and hopefully a boat shed added to the building. They may even replace the foundation on the west side so it won’t fall over one day. 😑


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Nov 2022)

Zoomie said:


> Infrastructure is a CAF wide problem.    I work in a Hangar built in the 1950s - it is expected to collapse during a significant seismic event.   We have no plans to replace this building - we just keep upgrading the HVAC and electrical. lipstick on a pig.



Well, at least it's not like you're on the edge of the Pacific Ring of Fire or anything... oh, wait


----------



## Rifleman62 (14 Nov 2022)

Jim, Minto has been a problem for decades. One part of the problem is 17 Wing CE. Minto is a very low priority for funds and activity from 17 Wing.
Remember when there was no heat in Minto? We held Levee on the pde sq. The Wing Comd arrived and to put his parka on. Heating fixed shortly after.
I had to get the PMed Tech to condemn ALL the washrooms in Minto to get  the WCEO to fix /renovate them.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Nov 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> Jim, Minto has been a problem for decades. One part of the problem is 17 Wing CE. Minto is a very low priority for funds and activity from 17 Wing.
> Remember when there was no heat in Minto? We held Levee on the pde sq. The Wing Comd arrived and to put his parka on. Heating fixed shortly after.
> I had to get the PMed Tech to condemn ALL the washrooms in Minto to get  the WCEO to fix /renovate them.



I worked in my parka indoors. It was warmer outside.


----------



## quadrapiper (14 Nov 2022)

Seems that an overhaul or replacement of armouries and other Reserve infrastructure might be a kind of defence spending that could be easily sold to Canadians with (relatively) little work and provide real benefit both to the CAF and to host communities. Lots of ribbon-cutting opportunities, too.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2022)

quadrapiper said:


> Seems that an overhaul or replacement of armouries and other Reserve infrastructure might be a kind of defence spending that could be easily sold to Canadians with (relatively) little work and provide real benefit both to the CAF and to host communities. Lots of ribbon-cutting opportunities, too.



Community Federal Emergency Response Management Centres.


----------



## foresterab (14 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Community Federal Emergency Response Management Centres.


While I am a firm believer that each and every armoury can serve a critical role and should have some degree of function/identification as an emergency center I also don't want them to be tasked solely to this role.   

I view them as a visible known reference point, able to be accessed easily, that provides enough of a shell of a building that allows them to be tasked into either a local command post or absolutely worst case a evactuation/triage center.   But I also view the role of the armoury in most civilian emergency situations to be similar to schools, arenas, community halls/legions/churches and as such should be a site considered but not the sole location used when something is going on.    

As federal infrastructure I'd rather the municipality involved look first at it's municipal based options, then provincially owned options and then lastly federal infrastructure as each site will become the focus of a different type of responses and units.


----------



## quadrapiper (14 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Community Federal Emergency Response Management Centres.


Exactly.


----------



## quadrapiper (14 Nov 2022)

foresterab said:


> While I am a firm believer that each and every armoury can serve a critical role and should have some degree of function/identification as an emergency center I also don't want them to be tasked solely to this role.
> 
> I view them as a visible known reference point, able to be accessed easily, that provides enough of a shell of a building that allows them to be tasked into either a local command post or absolutely worst case a evactuation/triage center.   But I also view the role of the armoury in most civilian emergency situations to be similar to schools, arenas, community halls/legions/churches and as such should be a site considered but not the sole location used when something is going on.
> 
> As federal infrastructure I'd rather the municipality involved look first at it's municipal based options, then provincially owned options and then lastly federal infrastructure as each site will become the focus of a different type of responses and units.


Doesn't need to be planned as the "host" site for displaced people, but should probably be fitted for C3 and have hotel services in excess of what's required for weeknight and weekend PRes use, plus some reasonable stock of rations, parts, maybe fuel, and so on to sustain at least the resident units.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2022)

Good toilets and showers would be the major addition to existing facilities.    Good heating system.  And lots of folding cots and blankets, tables and chairs.


----------



## Navy_Pete (14 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Good toilets and showers would be the major addition to existing facilities.    Good heating system.  And lots of folding cots and blankets, tables and chairs.


Just need to make sure it's clear it's EMERGENCY USE, or some genius will try putting people on routine TD up in armories to save a buck.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Just need to make sure it's clear it's EMERGENCY USE, or some genius will try putting people on routine TD up in armories to save a buck.


Depending on standard of accommodation would that be so bad?


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Nov 2022)

foresterab said:


> While I am a firm believer that each and every armoury can serve a critical role and should have some degree of function/identification as an emergency center I also don't want them to be tasked solely to this role.
> 
> I view them as a visible known reference point, able to be accessed easily, that provides enough of a shell of a building that allows them to be tasked into either a local command post or absolutely worst case a evactuation/triage center.   But I also view the role of the armoury in most civilian emergency situations to be similar to schools, arenas, community halls/legions/churches and as such should be a site considered but not the sole location used when something is going on.
> 
> As federal infrastructure I'd rather the municipality involved look first at it's municipal based options, then provincially owned options and then lastly federal infrastructure as each site will become the focus of a different type of responses and units.



So, in an earthquake, the Emergency RV will be beside the pile of bricks that used to be the 19th C era armoury then?







						List of armouries in Canada - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Nov 2022)

foresterab said:


> While I am a firm believer that each and every armoury can serve a critical role and should have some degree of function/identification as an emergency center I also don't want them to be tasked solely to this role.
> 
> I view them as a visible known reference point, able to be accessed easily, that provides enough of a shell of a building that allows them to be tasked into either a local command post or absolutely worst case a evactuation/triage center.   But I also view the role of the armoury in most civilian emergency situations to be similar to schools, arenas, community halls/legions/churches and as such should be a site considered but not the sole location used when something is going on.
> 
> As federal infrastructure I'd rather the municipality involved look first at it's municipal based options, then provincially owned options and then lastly federal infrastructure as each site will become the focus of a different type of responses and units.


Then expect to be the last peg in the totem pole, if your not paying the bill or are the owner, you are expected to do as your told. Yea you can't have guns in here because it might upset the daycare and by the way we are planning to house the drug addicts in your messes, that won't be a problem will it? (Seriously they tried to do that at our Cadet hall).


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> What I wrote to the MND and others today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would have added that you put the government at legal risk due to a failure to address serious health issues that may lead to long tern health issues and lawsuits.


----------



## kev994 (14 Nov 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> Jim, Minto has been a problem for decades. One part of the problem is 17 Wing CE. Minto is a very low priority for funds and activity from 17 Wing.
> Remember when there was no heat in Minto? We held Levee on the pde sq. The Wing Comd arrived and to put his parka on. Heating fixed shortly after.
> I had to get the PMed Tech to condemn ALL the washrooms in Minto to get  the WCEO to fix /renovate them.


In fairness, RPOps at 17 Wing doesn’t fix anything on the base either.


----------



## Navy_Pete (14 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Depending on standard of accommodation would that be so bad?


Depends on the duration and context, but for normal business travel, coursing etc yes. The NJCC travel directives are pretty straightforward, no reason to screw people to save a few bucks, especially when millions in travel gets returned every year.

We already have retention issues, that kind of thing is another one of the thousand cuts (especially when you are with on TD with civilians who would get a normal hotel).

We invest a lot into training people and pay well enough that it would be a 'penny wise, pound foolish' situation.

Saying this as it was actually a COA for ships doing an out of area refit in Port Weller, where they wanted to put the crew up in a local armoury for a few months. After working long days away from home that would have been a huge disatisfier. Fortunately that was a case where 'quality of life' actually made a real difference, and they got set up in a bare bones but clean motel. We were spending $28M on the project; the accommodations weren't even a rounding error and were already assumed. It wasn't free either, we would have needed some extra reservists around to get in/out anyway, and would have screwed up their training anyway.

Staying in the shacks isn't so bad, but sleeping on a cot in a gym for no good reason is bullshit.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Depends on the duration and context, but for normal business travel, coursing etc yes. The NJCC travel directives are pretty straightforward, no reason to screw people to save a few bucks, especially when millions in travel gets returned every year.
> 
> We already have retention issues, that kind of thing is another one of the thousand cuts (especially when you are with on TD with civilians who would get a normal hotel).
> 
> ...


Fair.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Staying in the shacks isn't so bad, but sleeping on a cot in a gym for no good reason is bullshit.



Speaking of which 

First time at sea

After sleeping on cots or on a pile of leaves in the woods while being bitten by mosquitoes all night when in the army, my sleeping accommodations on the ship felt quite luxurious." Lieutenant (Navy) Linda Coleman - p.9





__





						Loading...
					





					www.lookoutnewspaper.com


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## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Depends on the duration and context, but for normal business travel, coursing etc yes. The NJCC travel directives are pretty straightforward, no reason to screw people to save a few bucks, especially when millions in travel gets returned every year.
> 
> We already have retention issues, that kind of thing is another one of the thousand cuts (especially when you are with on TD with civilians who would get a normal hotel).
> 
> ...


I was thinking more along the lines of each armory having some shack/hostel type accommodations with a galley and ablutions  that could form the core of an emergency overload type situation.  Kind of like an Asterix/AOPS  DART capability ashore.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Speaking of which
> 
> First time at sea
> 
> ...



And first thing learned at sea was how to hook my leg into my rack so I didn't roll out.

Hammocks make so much sense.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Nov 2022)

kev994 said:


> In fairness, RPOps at 17 Wing doesn’t fix anything on the base either.


They need a lesson from the building maintainers here in jail. 

BTW the accommodations in jail are far better than most armories.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> They need a lesson from the building maintainers here in jail.
> 
> BTW the accommodations in jail are far better than most armories.



Which reflects the priorities of the government of the day, of course


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Which reflects the priorities of the government of the day, of course


Actually this gaol is a provincial one. I have no idea how the penitentiaries operate with respect to maintenance.


----------



## foresterab (15 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Then expect to be the last peg in the totem pole, if your not paying the bill or are the owner, you are expected to do as your told. Yea you can't have guns in here because it might upset the daycare and by the way we are planning to house the drug addicts in your messes, that won't be a problem will it? (Seriously they tried to do that at our Cadet hall).


I've worked out of hockey rinks where despite having the "keys to the building" we were also told to avoid certain rooms due to chemical hazards.  We were also told to save the zamboni if possible but were not allowed to drive it.

I've worked out of Legions where they still operated some meetings while we dealt with operations.  Bar was locked however for everyone's comfort.  

I've worked out of schools where boot rules had to be zealously enforced so that field wear did not damage all the refurbished floors (logging caulks and gym floors don't belong together) and certain rooms were closed off so that the soot of fires did not damage carpets.    We got evicted due to school starting shortly after a week but it provided an initial ICP until such time as a incident specific camp could be set up on the outskirts of town. 

So I can easily see working out of an armoury where some rooms (arms locker, comms gear) is off limits.  Or some unit staff continue to access specific needs and rooms with pre-determined access worked out prior to entering the space. 

What I generally need is a large enough space to set tables/chairs up, a ton of power cords, some washrooms and ideally a coffee pot.    Quarters can be a tent on basically any flat surface and food can be arrange multiple ways (resturants/seperate camp set up/ etc.).   Comms are done via cell phone and wifi normally, satellite uplink if remote enough. 

What is common in all 4 above is that they were larger spaces that were adapted to a shorter term need.  All have limitations in terms of use and expansion but allowed for a street address to be provided to allow resources to check in and then be directed to the operational area of need.   These were also used as the command post and crew/line arrangements varied at each one and in some cases by week as you adapt to both incident needs and community needs.   For the incidents above we're also talking about 200-250 personal total so they are smaller than a major catastrophic event but were still a significant tax on local infrastructure. 

I do however believe that this only works if its a short term need. i.e. not converting to a daycare + but a time period measured in days/weeks and is done with the understanding it allows for initial deployment with plans to change once situations stabilize.    It can not be the sole location considered without footing a significant part of the bill.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Thank you Jim.
> 
> You could have added something like 'times this by about a hundred other armouries and militia training facilities across Canada.'
> 
> I wandered through one of local armouries here last week. It looked more like a haunted house.


Can anyone name me one armouries that isn’t haunted as f**k?

(New ones don’t count…)


----------



## CBH99 (16 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> They need a lesson from the building maintainers here in jail.
> 
> BTW the accommodations in jail are far better than most armories.


I used to work in provincial Corrections myself for about a year, and I can concur this is true (in Alberta, anyway.)

The damn locking cell doors & mandatory prison dress is really what makes a provincial jail, a jail.  

But if you could bring in your own duffel bag, open the door & prop it open as you wish, and come & go as you please (the way it would be if your a ship’s crew, as per the reference a few posts up) 

staying in the jail would actually be a substantial step up compared to every single armoury I’ve ever been in.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Then expect to be the last peg in the totem pole, if your not paying the bill or are the owner, you are expected to do as your told. Yea you can't have guns in here because it might upset the daycare and by the way we are planning to house the drug addicts in your messes, that won't be a problem will it? (Seriously they tried to do that at our Cadet hall).



Simple answer.

If you are occupying an emergency space you are not using it correctly.

Day Cares and addicts (and mental care facilities need their own separate permanent homes.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

An armoury is basically a set of office spaces, some classrooms, a large indoor floor space, storage spaces, vehicle bays, and a few specialized use spaces, and whatever else people can remember that I have not.  Much of that can be multipurpose.  There are a lot of micro ideas that can be thrown into the hat.  The most obvious macro idea to me is that regardless what is put in, the necessarily secure portions are functionally segregated and easily secured from the other portions to facilitate multipurpose uses.  Then the organization has to maintain an institutional commitment to flexibility to allow multipurpose uses without allowing them to hinder the primary use (eg. emergency or occasional uses, yes; permanent or prolonged occupation, no).


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> An armoury is basically a set of office spaces, some classrooms, a large indoor floor space, storage spaces, vehicle bays, and a few specialized use spaces, and whatever else people can remember that I have not.  Much of that can be multipurpose.  There are a lot of micro ideas that can be thrown into the hat.  The most obvious macro idea to me is that regardless what is put in, the necessarily secure portions are functionally segregated and easily secured from the other portions to facilitate multipurpose uses.  Then the organization has to maintain an institutional commitment to flexibility to allow multipurpose uses without allowing them to hinder the primary use (eg. emergency or occasional uses, yes; permanent or prolonged occupation, no).



You're right.   I can envisage a one-off multi-month use of a space by a third party to accommodate it while it arranges a longer term/permanent solution.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> An armoury is basically a set of office spaces, some classrooms, a large indoor floor space, storage spaces, vehicle bays, and a few specialized use spaces, and whatever else people can remember that I have not.  Much of that can be multipurpose.  There are a lot of micro ideas that can be thrown into the hat.  The most obvious macro idea to me is that regardless what is put in, the necessarily secure portions are functionally segregated and easily secured from the other portions to facilitate multipurpose uses.  Then the organization has to maintain an institutional commitment to flexibility to allow multipurpose uses without allowing them to hinder the primary use (eg. emergency or occasional uses, yes; permanent or prolonged occupation, no).



These days one key element in the design and occupancy of the "armoury" has to be the Comms/Sigs community and all their gear to support permanent lodgers and allowing visitors to plug in.


----------



## GR66 (16 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> These days one key element in the design and occupancy of the "armoury" has to be the Comms/Sigs community and all their gear to support permanent lodgers and allowing visitors to plug in.


Feeling left out from participating in yet another thread derail...

Or maybe Emergency Preparedness Canada should store modular facilities that can be set up wherever they are required in an emergency (soccer field, farmer's field, empty lot, etc.) and not be bound to where the Armoury is located or to any other existing building which may be damaged/unusable in case of a natural disaster?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Can anyone name me one armouries that isn’t haunted as f**k?
> 
> (New ones don’t count…)



Try Wellington House at Stadacona.  Not an armouries but creepy as f$$k, especially the lower floors (shudder).


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

Armoury -

*a place where weapons and other military equipment are stored*: 









						armoury
					

1. all the weapons and military equipment that a country owns:  2. a place…




					dictionary.cambridge.org
				




Soldiers gather at the armoury to use the weapons and other military equipment stored there

The first thing an armoury needs is a secure place to store things (ordnance).  It needs offices to administer the inventory and activities.  It needs communications.  It also makes a useful place for the Adjutant-General to keep track of his troops, their condition, their training and their temper.


----------



## foresterab (16 Nov 2022)

GR66 said:


> Feeling left out from participating in yet another thread derail...
> 
> Or maybe Emergency Preparedness Canada should store modular facilities that can be set up wherever they are required in an emergency (soccer field, farmer's field, empty lot, etc.) and not be bound to where the Armoury is located or to any other existing building which may be damaged/unusable in case of a natural disaster?


Off the top of my head some of this infrastructure already exists within the Wildfire world

In Alberta we contract via 3rd parties for camps to be installed, within 24 hours of first call, anywhere in the province up to 250? person capacity.   That's Command Post, wash cars, and kitchen/dining hall + a very limited number of private rooms.  Call up Horizon North, to name one company, and as long as you are willing to meet their costs it's pretty amazing how almost any flat surface can be used.   There are multiple ICP posts that can also be deployed as a single ATCO trailer sized unit that the province owns along with pre-packed warehouse set ups up to and including a field refurbishment trailer. 

British Columbia uses a mix of in house camp facilities (kitchen, mess tent, some wall tents, washrooms) that they own, set up and maintain or, if short, uses 3rd party contracts to supply incidents.   Outfits such as tree planting contractors are a common source of kitchens/dining/wash car  set up with washrooms via porta pottie rental and other supports.   Standard cargo trailers are often used as warehouses and/or local depots depending on options. 

Ontario has a set of trailers that are modified standard cargo trailers converted into tiny individual bunk rooms.  Pull up and it's 10? rooms per trailer plus another for washcar.    There is less emphasis upon dining facilities as they tend to camp their crews on the line more than BC/AB and so it's more about delivery of groceries to crews than setting up a mess hall.  

There is a lot of discussion however going on in regards to emergency response as not all hazards are as integrated as wildfire agencies are and frankly the funding/capacity varies widely.   I would however rather focus upon smaller, helicopter portable materials than expensive hardwall trailers that require large trucks to access areas because those are often the resources tougher to get than a hall/building etc.   Ranger tents are an excellent investment in my mind as they can be used for multiple incident types up to and including medical aid triage buildings as are items such as cots that are needed to convert facilities like hockey rinks to evacuation centers.   

However as any emergency is multiple level - local emergency -> municipal emergency, ->  provincial emergency  -> National emergency I believe there is also an obligation for those parties below the federal government to be responsible instead of only relying up the federal gov't which is a) not well distributed nationally in terms of presence and b) will be slower than lower levels to respond.    Emergency Preparedness Canada does have a role to play in helping to coordinate certification consistency and training in the same manner than FEMA in the USA has worked with the USFS/BLM/NP to ensure consistency in certification processes and needs.   You can take different courses through each agency but they are all clearly spelled out that you will have FEMA course X or USFS course Y for this process and are recognized as peer equivalent.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Nov 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Try Wellington House at Stadacona.  Not an armouries but creepy as f$$k, especially the lower floors (shudder).



Wellington House is creepy AF when you're doing rounds in there at 3am.  

It's condemned now.  Empty and full of birds.  I think they are hoping it will fall down.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Wellington House is creepy AF when you're doing rounds in there at 3am.
> 
> It's condemned now.  Empty and full of birds.  I think they are hoping it will fall down.



Back in the early 2000s, I was a Cl B bum and lived on the top floor for a bit after the old C&Ps was ripped down...definitely NOT my fav place.  I heard stories about nurse ghosts and some other stuff and...never slept sound there after that.  There were a few times 'someone was walking down the hall' and yet there was no one living in my end of that floor...


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Nov 2022)

Speaking of ghosts the Officers' Mess at CFB Cornwallis was supposedly haunted. The story is that the lady in question was jilted and she took her own life.

SAY...maybe there is a fat consultant fee to rid the infrastructure of spirits.....


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> .  I think they are hoping it will fall down.


Happens a lot actually, saves the asbestos and mold clean up required.  A case in point is the old Guelph jail, it needs to be abated before it can be demolished, but if it falls down and/or becomes a hazard, it can just be finished off and hauled away.  Something about saving millions of dollars makes the particles escaping from it safer I guess.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

foresterab said:


> Off the top of my head some of this infrastructure already exists within the Wildfire world
> 
> In Alberta we contract via 3rd parties for camps to be installed, within 24 hours of first call, anywhere in the province up to 250? person capacity.   That's Command Post, wash cars, and kitchen/dining hall + a very limited number of private rooms.  Call up Horizon North, to name one company, and as long as you are willing to meet their costs it's pretty amazing how almost any flat surface can be used.   There are multiple ICP posts that can also be deployed as a single ATCO trailer sized unit that the province owns along with pre-packed warehouse set ups up to and including a field refurbishment trailer.
> 
> ...



I hope the CAF management knows about this supply system.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (16 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Speaking of ghosts the Officers' Mess at CFB Cornwallis was supposedly haunted. The story is that the lady in question was jilted and she took her own life.
> 
> SAY...maybe there is a fat consultant fee to rid the infrastructure of spirits.....


I actually saw the ghost in the old Work Point Officer‘s Mess. A subaltern, in a early 1900’s scarlet uniform (fully transparent- I could see the wall through him). Got to say, it was not really scary, so much as just…interesting. I asked him to please move along so I could get some sleep and he did.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Happens a lot actually, saves the asbestos and mold clean up required.  A case in point is the old Guelph jail, it needs to be abated before it can be demolished, but if it falls down and/or becomes a hazard, it can just be finished off and hauled away.  Something about saving millions of dollars makes the particles escaping from it safer I guess.



Same things is happening to some historically designated hangers in Borden. Cant tare them down because of their designation.  So leave them up, lock them up and turn off the heat, power and water.


----------



## dimsum (17 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I actually saw the ghost in the old Work Point Officer‘s Mess. A subaltern, in a early 1900’s scarlet uniform (fully transparent- I could see the wall through him). Got to say, it was not really scary, so much as just…interesting. I asked him to please move along so I could get some sleep and he did.


So...a friendly ghost?


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> So...a friendly ghost?


Named ‘Broomaloo’…


----------



## ueo (17 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Same things is happening to some historically designated hangers in Borden. Cant tare them down because of their designation.  So leave them up, lock them up and turn off the heat, power and water.


Just let Mother Nature have her way. they'll fall down, just like the remainder of Borden,


----------



## North Star (17 Nov 2022)

The ultimate subaltern...got lost on his way to the very final objective.


----------



## foresterab (17 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I hope the CAF management knows about this supply system.


I'd like to think that is part of the assistance briefing/ask that brings the CAF into an incident.   We need X personnel for Y task to operate in conditions Z.   Conditions Z are being managed currently by the following set up.    

Of course this is usually a Provincial EOC or premier talking to Ottawa/Prime Minister so unfortunately the finer operational details often don't come out until after the advance party arrival who notes things like bug spray, coffee, and cots are needed because guys are going to be sleeping in a mosquito infested swamp...for example. 

While the CAF can theoretically mobilize the most bodies they're often the 2nd or 3rd federal agency involved though.   RCMP are often involved, and almost guaranteed to be if evacuations take place, and Transport Canada are constantly involved due to NOTAM Air space control issues.  But have also dealt with National Energy Board (they really don't like heavy equipment crossing pipelines), Transport Canada for railways, DFO (what exactly are you dropping from that water bomber bay), National Parks (treated like another province resource wise for us), and Immigration and Border Services (you want to evacuate Washington state residents through Canada how??? Have you considered the differences in laws?) 

So I think from a higher level Ottawa/Federal Gov't perspective there is a growing understanding of what is involved and who should be supplying what.  I also believe this part of the messaging recently this fall over Hurricane Fiona response where the Federal government is being viewed as the sole supplier of of assistance to the detriment of other priorities...especially for the CAF.   

As Canada's military responds to more disasters like Hurricane Fiona, recruitment struggles to keep up 
One of several articles on this subject that is appropriate.


----------



## Navy_Pete (17 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Wellington House is creepy AF when you're doing rounds in there at 3am.
> 
> It's condemned now.  Empty and full of birds.  I think they are hoping it will fall down.


Weird how many times it's been 'uncondemend' to date.

Stayed there briefly about 17 years ago; we were restricted to one section with other parts blocked off and plastic sheeting up. Because that totally stopped the mold and mildew that was everywhere. It was both cold and clammy at the same time, like some kind of partially defrosted fridge, and almost got brained by some plaster falling down from the wall. They then shifted us to another 'uncondemned' building at shearwater, which was at least dry and clean(ish) in the section we stayed in.

I hate that we keep old buildings around for historical reasons, but keep upkeep and maintenance also historical.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Weird how many times it's been 'uncondemend' to date.
> 
> Stayed there briefly about 17 years ago; we were restricted to one section with other parts blocked off and plastic sheeting up. Because that totally stopped the mold and mildew that was everywhere. It was both cold and clammy at the same time, like some kind of partially defrosted fridge, and almost got brained by some plaster falling down from the wall. They then shifted us to another 'uncondemned' building at shearwater, which was at least dry and clean(ish) in the section we stayed in.
> 
> I hate that we keep old buildings around for historical reasons, but keep upkeep and maintenance also historical.



Ya it has closed and opened a few times.  Now it's missing windows birds flying in and no utilities and big signs saying do not enter.


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## OldSolduer (17 Nov 2022)

The whole "historical" designation of a building is a dog's breakfast. SO you can't tear it down nor can you make substantial changes without it going through a zillion committees.


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## kev994 (17 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The whole "historical" designation of a building is a dog's breakfast. SO you can't tear it down nor can you make substantial changes without it going through a zillion committees.


Yeah, the ones in Trenton have large chunks of concrete falling off of them. I vaguely recall having to vote on a crazy expensive air conditioner for the OMess because you have to not be able to see it… heritage of this crappy looking building.


----------



## Spencer100 (17 Nov 2022)

kev994 said:


> Yeah, the ones in Trenton have large chunks of concrete falling off of them. I vaguely recall having to vote on a crazy expensive air conditioner for the OMess because you have to not be able to see it… heritage of this crappy looking building.


But I think of the old Armouries and think about the emergency talk a page back.  The rest of the buildings downtown will be wrecked those old armouries would be just sitting there.  I get the love of new buildings.  Sure somethings are better but I know the building which will be standing in a emergency and it won't be the new ones.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (18 Nov 2022)

But, how much money is being sunk into buildings that aren't really worth the cost?  Halifax Armouries comes to mind;  designated historical building and all but...



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-armoury-restoration-progress-overruns-1.6221485


----------



## Furniture (18 Nov 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> But, how much money is being sunk into building that aren't really worth the cost?  Halifax Armouries comes to mind;  designated historical building and all but...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-armoury-restoration-progress-overruns-1.6221485


I think people mistake "old" with "historic", resulting in old buildings with no real historic value being "preserved" at the expense of building modern, efficient, and useful buildings.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (18 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I think people mistake "old" with "historic", resulting in old buildings with no real historic value being "preserved" at the expense of building modern, efficient, and useful buildings.



Or, people thinking because it is "historic" it is worth the money, like the historian in the article I posted saying "it is worth the time and money".

From a military perspective, I don't agree at all.   If NS/HRM wants to take the bldg on, then take it on.  If it's worth the money, then sink provincial and municipal $ into the blgs...but I bet the voters at those level don't want to see the money spent there where it can actually benefit people elsewhere.

We are pretty stupid about some things in this country of ours.


----------



## CBH99 (18 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I actually saw the ghost in the old Work Point Officer‘s Mess. A subaltern, in a early 1900’s scarlet uniform (fully transparent- I could see the wall through him). Got to say, it was not really scary, so much as just…interesting. I asked him to please move along so I could get some sleep and he did.


It’s funny, I always thought seeing a ghost would scare the heck out of me.  


Several years ago, when my grandfather on my dad’s side passed away, we kept his urn at our house for a few months.  

The idea was to ship his urn to England to be buried beside his brother, but shipping urns is more expensive than one may realize, so his urn stayed at our house for a while.  

Specifically, it stayed in my dad’s office which was in the basement.  My bedroom was also in the basement on the opposite side.  From my bed, I could see out my bedroom door straight to his office.  

One night, the light outside my bedroom door turned on.  It woke me up, as I wasn’t expecting to have light shining in my face in the middle of the night, and thought one if my parents was coming downstairs for some reason…

But as I opened my eyes and looked down towards my door, I could clearly see my grandfather standing in my dad’s office right beside his urn.  He walked right towards my bedroom door until he got to the basement stairs, then turned and went up the stairs.  

(I know I wasn’t dreaming because I eventually had to get up and turn that light back off)


I thought I’d be terrified if I ever clearly saw a ghost.  Turns out it was just…yeah.  Interesting.  Wasn't freaked out at all.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Nov 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> But, how much money is being sunk into buildings that aren't really worth the cost?  Halifax Armouries comes to mind;  designated historical building and all but...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-armoury-restoration-progress-overruns-1.6221485



The last unit is moving out of there soon.  

Its getting a complete internal overhaul now.  And boyo it needs it.  I just did a SIV there.  Disgusting.  I'm pretty sure we have laws against housing convicted inmates in places like that.


----------



## kev994 (18 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The last unit is moving out of there soon.
> 
> Its getting a complete internal overhaul now.  And boyo it needs it.  I just did a SIV there.  Disgusting.  I'm pretty sure we have laws against housing convicted inmates in places like that.


Not that long ago I saw a base-wide email saying “don’t drink the water in XX hangar” followed a day later by “the water is now safe because the WComd has accepted the risk”. I’ll bring my own water, thanks.


----------



## CICOPS (18 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> If someone was cynical, they would assume the entire system was designed so nobody could ever be held accountable for any decision.


Shhh....you are not supposed to say that.


----------



## Kirkhill (18 Nov 2022)

If the buildings aren't functional shouldn't they be transferred from the Department of National Defence estate to the Department of Canadian Heritage? Like, for example, Fort Henry.


----------



## RangerRay (18 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I actually saw the ghost in the old Work Point Officer‘s Mess. A subaltern, in a early 1900’s scarlet uniform (fully transparent- I could see the wall through him). Got to say, it was not really scary, so much as just…interesting. I asked him to please move along so I could get some sleep and he did.


Probably the ghost of a young English gentleman officer with dreams of adventure in the Empire, but got posted to some sleepy colonial backwater instead.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Nov 2022)

I think I heard the announcement is the establishment of some NATO Office in Halifax.  Can anyone confirm ?


----------



## RangerRay (18 Nov 2022)

As much as I like heritage buildings, there are times when they must be modernized or are no longer fit for purpose and must be demolished. 

I once rented a suite in a heritage house in Vic West (apparently it’s a crime to refer to the area as West Victoria or Victoria West). The hippy landlord complained to me that heritage house regulations said she was not allowed to replace old fixtures, windows, doors, etc. to make it more energy efficient, or nicer. Hence the drafty windows and 90 year old bathtub.  😖


----------



## kev994 (18 Nov 2022)

kev994 said:


> Not that long ago I saw a base-wide email saying “don’t drink the water in XX hangar” followed a day later by “the water is now safe because the WComd has accepted the risk”. I’ll bring my own water, thanks.


I think the wording was actually “not unsafe”


----------



## dimsum (18 Nov 2022)

kev994 said:


> I think the wording was actually “not unsafe”


That is actually quite clever.

Is it safe?  _shrug_ 

It's not "unsafe"...


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> As much as I like heritage buildings, there are times when they must be modernized or are no longer fit for purpose and must be demolished.
> 
> I once rented a suite in a heritage house in Vic West (apparently it’s a crime to refer to the area as West Victoria or Victoria West). The hippy landlord complained to me that heritage house regulations said she was not allowed to replace old fixtures, windows, doors, etc. to make it more energy efficient, or nicer. Hence the drafty windows and 90 year old bathtub.  😖



Oh, for a second there I thought you were talking about the ancient 'brickworks' a.k.a. CFB Esquimalt


----------



## RangerRay (18 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh, for a second there I thought you were talking about the ancient 'brickworks' a.k.a. CFB Esquimalt


Gawd, if I ever referred to Vic West as Esquimalt, I think I would have been drawn and quartered!


----------



## brihard (18 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think I heard the announcement is the establishment of some NATO Office in Halifax.  Can anyone confirm ?


Apparently a NATO scientific and technological innovation hub. Could be interesting.









						Halifax proposed as new home for NATO's North American innovation hub: minister
					

Defence Minister Anita Anand announced Friday a proposal to establish an innovation hub in Halifax for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.




					atlantic.ctvnews.ca


----------



## dimsum (18 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Apparently a NATO scientific and technological innovation hub. Could be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't understand why Halifax and not near the big tech hubs in ON?


----------



## brihard (18 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> I don't understand why Halifax and not near the big tech hubs in ON?


Article says lots of tech startups out there, plus a bunch of colleges and universities, and a big military base. 

I hadn't realized til I looked it up, but sounds like Halifax has actually been pushing really hard to become a tech hub.









						‘Everything is just on fast-forward’ How Halifax became a Canadian tech hub - Halifax | Globalnews.ca
					

Nova Scotia - once known for its traditional resource industries, aging population and westward migration of workers - is changing.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Article says lots of tech startups out there, plus a bunch of colleges and universities, and a big military base.
> 
> I hadn't realized til I looked it up, but sounds like Halifax has actually been pushing really hard to become a tech hub.
> 
> ...



Halifax is booming.  

It's completely out grown it's infrastructure in the last few years.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Article says lots of tech startups out there, plus a bunch of colleges and universities, and a big military base.
> 
> I hadn't realized til I looked it up, but sounds like Halifax has actually been pushing really hard to become a tech hub.
> 
> ...


Until the Maritime employee's realize its not 6 months working and 6 months EI.....


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Until the Maritime employee's realize its not 6 months working and 6 months EI.....



It's really interesting to see the clash of the historical lazy maritimer culture and the new drive the body shoot the foot culture.

Particularly in Halifax.  Lots of the born and bred locals are very upset with the change of pace.


----------



## dimsum (18 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It's really interesting to see the clash of the historical lazy maritimer culture and the new drive the body shoot the foot culture.


Frankly that's a good thing.  Atlantic Canada has some great places, Halifax among them.  

Apparently Moncton and St. John's are also angling to become (smaller) tech hubs too.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> Frankly that's a good thing.  Atlantic Canada has some great places, Halifax among them.
> 
> Apparently Moncton and St. John's are also angling to become (smaller) tech hubs too.



I agree.


----------



## RangerRay (18 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> Frankly that's a good thing.  Atlantic Canada has some great places, Halifax among them.
> 
> Apparently Moncton and St. John's are also angling to become (smaller) tech hubs too.


My wife was in Moncton a couple years ago. Described it as a “desolate wasteland”.


----------



## lenaitch (18 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It's really interesting to see the clash of the historical lazy maritimer culture and the new drive the body shoot the foot culture.
> 
> Particularly in Halifax.  Lots of the born and bred locals are very upset with the change of pace.


Maybe once the born and breds see the boom not only pass them by but reduce their standard of living because they aren't competitive.  Then again, EI will always be there.

A buddy's son was recruited right out of his Ontario university to some job in Halifax working on something to do with nanotechnology and batteries.


----------



## Furniture (19 Nov 2022)

It's interesting how people who seem to view themselves as progressive in their thinking have no issues stereotyping people based on where they were born...


----------



## Weinie (19 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> It's interesting how people who seem to view themselves as progressive in their thinking have no issues stereotyping people based on where they were born...


I was raised in Nova Scotia. My relatives are lazy as fuck.


----------



## Furniture (19 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> I was raised in Nova Scotia. My relatives are lazy as fuck.


I was raised in PEI, for every lazy person I know back home, I know one that works harder than 99% of the CAF.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I was raised in PEI, for every lazy person I know back home, I know one that works harder than 99% of the CAF.


 
There are 483 Islanders in the CAF?


----------



## Furniture (19 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> There are 483 Islanders in the CAF?


More, because I'm definitely dragging the stats down. 

It's all about the green(blue) welfare here!


----------



## Mike5 (21 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I was raised in PEI, for every lazy person I know back home, I know one that works harder than 99% of the CAF.


I am born and bred Cape Breton, and for every lazy person back home, I know a hundred that work harder than 99% of the CAF, and for far less.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The last unit is moving out of there soon.
> 
> Its getting a complete internal overhaul now.  And boyo it needs it.  I just did a SIV there.  Disgusting.  I'm pretty sure we have laws against housing convicted inmates in places like that.



I haven't been in it for almost 2 decades...it was in bad shape then.  I can imagine now...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2022)

kev994 said:


> Not that long ago I saw a base-wide email saying “don’t drink the water in XX hangar” followed a day later by “the water is now safe because the WComd has accepted the risk”. I’ll bring my own water, thanks.



Similar...and we noticed when they were drilling for new wells for the Ops side...it was adjacent the runway and a taxiway...

I also don't drink the water in our hanger that was deemed safe for consumption (after being unfit for years).  It was tested etc apparantly and is fine.  No one knows what changed...I'll assume my own risk on that one, thanks.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Apparently a NATO scientific and technological innovation hub. Could be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if there's any idea where it might go...GDC bldg in Cole Harbour?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Until the Maritime employee's realize its not 6 months working and 6 months EI.....



No respecting Maritimer would get 6 months of stamps to draw pogie when you can do it with 2 months....sheesh.  Who wants to flag for 6 months??

😁


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I was raised in PEI, for every lazy person I know back home, I know one that works harder than 99% of the CAF.



Yup, when I was young I worked on farms back home (I'm from Prince County).  Hardest I've worked in my life, some of it, including FTXs doing dismounted OP Screens and stuff.  Anyone who hasn't done old-school, dug in dismounted O.P.s (done properly) might not appreciate how much suck can fit into a 72hr BTS.  Riding on the back of a 6-row planter from sunup to sundown for a week or two straight, choking dust in listening to that noise...I'll take the 72hr dismtd OP screen, any season, please.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> There are 483 Islanders in the CAF?



I don't believe it.  Not that many of us are good at reedin' and rightin'....never pass the appletude test.


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## Quirky (21 Nov 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I don't believe it.  Not that many of us are good at reedin' and rightin'....never pass the appletude test.


They don’t be good at multi quotin’ either eh.


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## Weinie (21 Nov 2022)

Mike5 said:


> I am born and bred Cape Breton, and for every lazy person back home, *I know a hundred that work harder than 99% of the CAF, and for far less.*


Then we have solved our recruiting problems.  Sign up those Cape Bretoners. Extra/great money for them, bonus for the CAF

Oh I forgot. 

Cape Bretoners don't want to commit to anything in total_*, *_lest they commit themselves.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> It's interesting how people who seem to view themselves as progressive in their thinking have no issues stereotyping people based on where they were born...


Also interesting??    How in a mere 20 years we've gone from drinking wine to making whine.  
The immortal quote, "Lighten up Francis."


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Nov 2022)

And in my very next click I read....


Furniture said:


> There are two things I can't stand in this world; people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.


Are there two different people using this profile???


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## Kat Stevens (21 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And in my very next click I read....
> 
> Are there two different people using this profile???


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## OldSolduer (21 Nov 2022)

Carnies.

Small hands smell like cabbage. Circus folk 😝


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


>


Oh,.......movie quote,...my kryptonite....


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## Weinie (22 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Oh,.......movie quote,...my kryptonite....


You can't handle the truth.


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## OldSolduer (22 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> You can't handle the truth.


Nobody expects The Spanish Inquisition


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## Good2Golf (23 Nov 2022)

SPY-7(V) in the news…Star Wars/Ballistic Missile Defense Japanese style…same system Canada is putting on future FFGs and potential AEGIS Ashore for NORAD…

I wonder how long it will be before Canada announces its further buy-in to the ‘Western protectosphere.’









						Japanese destroyers intercept ballistic missiles in tests with US Navy
					

Cooperative Engagement Capability allowed JS Maya to detect and track the missile target before sister ship JS Haguro shot it down.




					www.defensenews.com


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## Maxman1 (24 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I wonder how long it will be before Canada announces its further buy-in to the ‘Western protectosphere.’


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## MJP (9 Dec 2022)

CANFORGEN giving the broad outline of how CAF members will access clothing in the medium term. 

Essentially no real changes for a mbr needing an exchange until Fall 24.  In Fall 2024 a online ordering catalogue will be made avail to CAF mbrs, unknown the exact items or the process required to order.

Behind the scenes change for Fall 23 in that clothing stores will order from LU vice the depots

Depots will still be a thing as they will retain some aspects of clothing not suitable for LU likely operational kitting and other non-core clothing endeavours.


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