# An speaking of Browning Hi-powers...



## pappy (28 Oct 2004)

A thread on the board talked about BHP's, having always like BHPs here's one of my favorites...

This is a FM Hi-Power Detective model (7/8" shorter slide then the standard BHP)
Made at the FM (FN Licensed plant in Argentina)  Plant in Argentina.
Uses a full length guide rod, other then slide, barrel and guide rod, all other parts are completely interchangeable from anyother BHP (FN and US made)

This one has a set of grips with a Laser built into them, push-button on each side for left or right hand operation, on/off switch on side away from camera.
Just in front of the safety is the laser bump.

Nice little 13-shot compact 9mm.


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## Slim (28 Oct 2004)

Don't think I've ever seen one that short before...Neat.

How is it for accuracy?

Slim


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Oct 2004)

Very nice! I've always been, and still am, an admirer of the HP. Tried and true design, simple, uncomplicated, easy to train to, large capacity, favourable round. The list goes on. The biggest argument against it is always that it's not double action. In my mind and how we, in the military, employ it, this isn't an issue. It can be carried with one in the chamber and brought to full cock on the draw. Besides, I've found it takes a fair bit of training for anyone to connect, in a panic situation, with the manufacturers double action trigger pull on the first round on double action autos. The trigger pull is normally long and creepy. The HP we have just needs to have the slide squeezed a bit and the rails and trigger group polished to make it target accurate and in contention.


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## Slim (28 Oct 2004)

There are a number of HP models that are double-action on the market. And they are every bit as robust as what we have now.

I would not object to seeing the BHP Double-action as the next service pistol.

Slim


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Oct 2004)

Not denying that. Just comfortable with what I know ;D


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## pappy (28 Oct 2004)

There is some rumors they will start importing these again, well if Bush is reelected.   I believe these where used by Argintine army officers and Police hence the name "Detective"   These came into the US for short time and where drit cheap, less then $200 new in the box with 2 clips.   But at the time everyone was in love with all the new double actions and ployimer glocks so sells sucked and well Cliton happened, so imports went bye bye.

as far as accuracy I've seen no difference between my full size BHP.   At 7 yards at the range it will empty 13 rds into about 2". ALthough it might do better with someone that shoots well.


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## Slim (28 Oct 2004)

The CF also has some of the "hottest" 9mm around right now as we use submachinegun ammo rather than pistol ammo. The BHP can also stand up to the higher barrel pressures very well.

Slim


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Oct 2004)

Never seen it chronographed, but ever since I was a shaver, I was told it was loaded, and hit, to around the same specs as a .357 magnum. Can anyone confirm?


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## pappy (28 Oct 2004)

I agree, I'm not sure why people like double actions so much.   They do take a lot more practice to get the first round on target.
Maybe their popularity is due to the police, they where so used to double action revolvers for so long that once they where allowed to switch to semi-autos double action was just a carry over.

I own one DA semi-auto, a Walther P99, not bad for a DA trigger, almost a triple action type trigger, you can load it, decock it with the slide mounted decocker, then rack the slide back about 1/8" and it stays just as safe as decocked DA mode, but only about 1/4" or less movement of the trigger returns it to single action pull mode. It can be decocked and left in standard DA mode as well, with the longer heavier DA pull.

I've carried my BHP's for many many years and never had a problem with one in the tube and hammer down.

I know of at least two local cops (small town, 150,000 people or so) that have shot themselves with their own issue glock in the last 5-8 years.   One in his rear calf and the other his own ###    : most policehere changed to Sigs, a fine choice too.   I've shot a few sigs and had to find any faults with them.

Friend don't let friends own Glocks      ;D


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## Slim (28 Oct 2004)

Well...This is from memory but...The 158 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint round in 9mm (law enforcement) usually travels at roughly 12 to 1300 feet per second and hits with about 250 to 275 foot LBS of stopping power.

I believe (again from memory) that the CF 9mm ammo is a third again more powerful that the 158 SJH ammo...Maybe 200grain-something like that.

I'm sure some ammo techj is going to read all this and laugh with scorn at my "memory" numbers...then get his big book of rounds out and give you all the data. What I have laid out is just a rough estimate.

I would like to re-iterate yet again that these numbers are *FROM MEMORY AND ARE PROBABLY NOT ACCURATE*. Iam not an ammo guy and as long as the round goes where its supposed to I am reasonably happy.

Cheers

Slim


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## pappy (28 Oct 2004)

158 gr in 9mm?  news to me, I've seen 147gr, but there was a tad slow even in +p loads.  But I'm not sure what the CAF is using.  I doubt any 9mm is 200gr, although there was a converstion for 9mm friearms that could fire 170gr and 200gr (and up to 220gr) - called .41 Action Express but the 170's where around 1000 maybe 1100fps, 200grs less then 1000fps, but both had a pouch to them.

Remember what the same 9mm sub-gun ammo will do velocity wise out of a sub-gun (8" or longer barrels) can't be duplicated from a 4" or 5" barrel, there is some velocity losses.

I shoot some Federal 124gr. EFMJ that are about 1200fps muzzle velocity out of a handgun.  I posted some info on this round in another thread.  But in short JHP ammo has been found to clog up the HP and preform about the same as FMJ when fired in real world circumstances, clothes, etc will clog HP's pretty easy.  not always, but it can happen.
Federal working with the FBI developed the EFMJ (expanding full metal jacket) to solve this problem and add better penitration thourgh car glass, wall board, etc.  Think of a HP core with a soft polymer button / filler inserted into the HP and then both covered with a full metal jacket.  These expand to almost the same size as .40 S&W.  The soft Polymer core deforms easy allowing expansion without clogging.  An added benifit is very reliable feeding is all weapons.  And less "court room shock".... as they look like FMJ's not quite as "scary" as gapping hollow points.

I also have some older Hertinburger 9mm FL that was made a few years back, 100gr conical softpoint (harder alloy then standard lead), this round pushes almost 1400fps and was designed to defeat body armor, car doors etc. 

Most NATO spec ammo is 124gr with Sub-gun ammo just loaded with more powder, but if anyone knows more please let me know.  I just find it hard to believe a 200gr bullet in a 9mm and still being able to load some powder in the case and have them feed.  !47gr 9mm are some long little bullets.

I friend on mine used to own a 9mm S&W-76 Subgun (US copy of the Swedish K) he bought and shot 9mm Subgun ammo for that, it was indeed hotter, but still a 124gr.  bullet.


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## 1feral1 (28 Oct 2004)

I have always had a passion for the BHP, and first bought one back in 1980, a T series Inglis 3T59XX. Now some wierd BHP Aussie facts.

There are variety of types found in service as fol:

- Inglis T series ( replaced w/L9A1 and Mk II slides)
- Inglis CH series slotted for shoulders stock (w/L9A1 and Mk II and Mk III slides)
- FN slotted for shoulder stock (w/ L9A1 and Mk II and Mk III slides)
- L9A1 FN (some MkIII ergo frips and ambo safety)
- FN Mk II ( as above)
- FN Mk III ( all w/ ergo grips and ambo safety)

Also its a parts nightmare as some types do not interchange, making our EMEIs almost rocket science and quite confusing.

However, soon only the MkIII's will be in service as the othes will be culled thru attrition.

The BHP will remain in service here for years to come.


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## Lance Wiebe (28 Oct 2004)

I'm trying to dredge up some old memories.

Back in the days when I did a lot of pistol shooting, all of my shooting was done with army issue 9mm.

One day, I picked up a box of civilian 9mm, and went to fire them.  I was quite shocked.  It was like the difference between 357 and 38 special, that much of a difference in felt recoil, and our aim/hit points changed big time, as well.

So, we pulled some of the bullets, and measured the powder.  Here's where the memory might be a bit out.  Seems to me that the civilian ammo had a propellant charge weight of around 4 grains.  This sound right?  The military ammo (we pulled five rounds apart) weighed in between 6.5 and 6.8 grains.

So, easily a 50% increase in propellant.

I have no clue what types of propellant were used in each round, which would of course affect burn time and pressures.  But it did satisfy our curiousity.........

We were alos surprised that the military ammo had such a wide spread of weights.  We were hoping that our rifle and tank ammo were subjected to some better quality control standards.

Hey, Ammo Techs, how about some input here?


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## KevinB (28 Oct 2004)

Our issue 9mm is 124gr - it is the NATO standard weight.

 We chrono'd some a few years ago and it FAST - cira 1350fps out of the BHP
However sometime a while back the gov't realised we dont have the C1 SMG anymore and the ammo got downloaded - it not longer has the same "zing" to it - and shootering it has notcieable difference as the slide does nto slam to the rear in the same violent manner.

I am not a fan of the new Browning DA guns - they are not up to the standard
IF we get a new pistol my vote would have to be for the Sig P226 (althought my fav would be for the new USMC Kimber .45  ;D - but I know Canada won't go .45)


My NOVAK custom BHP gun

















and it in "action" (Basegun club at lunch - dont everyone get their nickers in a knot I am not takign it out on ex's)


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## 1feral1 (28 Oct 2004)

Back after the cracked barrel scares in the early 1980s, the CF later had IVI develop a 'reduced' charge for the pistol.

The nomenclature and 'for wpns UN No' also was different from the 9mm ball for the C1 SMG. By the late 80's to 1990, the C1 SMG was gone.

In the past the Cdn 9mm ball as known as the hottest milspec 9mm ammo around, and was common to damage captured P08 and P38 pistols.


Cheers,

WEs


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## Slim (29 Oct 2004)

While shooting in SFSAC in '92 I watched a unit of the U.S. Army shoot our ammo with their brand new issued Berretta pistols...The results were a bit surprising. The Berretta's were almost all blown up (slivered barrel and slide cracked in to 2 or 3 pieces) after shooting our ammo for a time. (a very short time)

It was later determined that there had been a fault with the first issue of the U.S. Army's new service pistol, and that the falut (never did find out what it was) was corrected and the weapons have gone on to perform up to their standards. I guess shooting our "hot" ammo didn't help either.

Slim


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## pappy (29 Oct 2004)

luckily they did find the cause.  It wasn't just hot ammo that was a problem.  They redisgned the slide, added some reenforcement in the slide to stop the seperation of the slide from the frame.

Why do we let "low bidder" provide weapons?

I friend of mine asked me what sort of handgun to buy, I said "get a Hi-power"; he bought a Glock when they first hit the US, he did all the reseach, "start of the art" I remember him saying.  "That Hi-power was designed in 1935"...
I just smiled....  saying to myself, "yep a 1935 Rolls-Royce"
First time shooting I handed him some mill surplus rounds.... not one would fire in the GLock, never a single misfire in my hi-power.  A few adjustments on his Glock sight and it fell off.  Before that failure his couldn't hit anything.  Even after repairing the sights it never hit what you where aiming at consistiantly.  And that Trigger  : yuck  He kept it for a few years, but never got good with it.

One day he asked, what he should do, he was giving up in the GLock, I told him trade it in on a Browning.....

He got a Sig 9mm instead.....  not bad choice a step up from the Glock, a nice pistol, he shot it a lot. Then it started misfiring, 1 outta 3, then 2 outta 3, not good...
My Browning kept on going like the little bunny on the commercial....  He hand the Sig for years, it did very well up to the end.
I told him to get a gunsmith to go over it, sure it just needed new springs and a little tune up, but he said "Hell I've gone though two pistols and that f-ing Hi-power is still shooting, and even better. I'm getting a Browning"

First day shooting it, first mag, he looks over and says "why the hell didn't you tell me to buy a Hi-power before"  He's been a hi-power fan ever since.  Granted both of us and gotten other pistol over the years. But the Hi-powers are still the favorite.

I never did understand why the US military went with the Barretta 92.  Our .45's where worn out to say the least, but the 92?  bad bad


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## Slim (29 Oct 2004)

Well Pappy...I didn't want to say it out loud and possibly insult some of our U.S. brothers in arms but...I kind of agree. I have never been a fan of the Berretta in the least.

Slim


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