# Great Lakes machine guns raise ire in Canada



## FredDaHead (28 Sep 2006)

> Great Lakes machine guns raise ire in Canada
> U.S. Coast Guard conducting live-ammunition training drills
> MARGARET PHILP
> 
> ...



I think both sides are wrong: Canada is wrong to bitch about the environment (the effect is minimal) and about weapons being on the Great Lakes--we took a FRIGATE on it just a week ago. The US are wrong to conduct life-fire exercises without making damn sure there's zero chance of civilians wandering into the firing lanes.

It all comes down to stupid politiking...


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## Reccesoldier (28 Sep 2006)

The comments about militarizing the border are humorous to say the least.  Aren't we in the process of arming our border guards?


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## 2 Cdo (28 Sep 2006)

Well reccesoldier it is written for the Globe! Never let facts interfer with a soundbite!


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## warspite (28 Sep 2006)

> “We've spent years removing lead from the Great Lakes,” said Mary Muter,


Just a question but what lead is she talking about? Don't know anything about the area but what is the situation there?

By the way could a few bullets actually harm the environment that much?


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## FredDaHead (28 Sep 2006)

warspite said:
			
		

> Just a question but what lead is she talking about? Don't know anything about the area but what is the situation there?
> 
> By the way could a few bullets actually harm the environment that much?



Certain choice European studies have concluded that lead sinkers fishermen use could potentially contaminate water. Basically, the crazy hippies think that if you use lead sinkers you contaminate water worse than, oh, say, all the factories this side of the Atlantic.

And "a few" bullets probably equal all the sinkers lost over a year or two. Following the ecocrazies' argument, those bullets that contain lead leak into the water, polluting it further.

Basically, they took stuff out of context and are now attacking people with their out-of-context arguments in typical hypocrite lefty fashion.


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## Danjanou (28 Sep 2006)

Hmm let’s see contamination and pollution of the Great Lakes. Yeah a couple of bullets are really going to make a difference there.

Oh his blondness the Mayor of Tronna is all upset by guns again, another big flipping surprise there, mind it is an election year and any MSN soundbite helps.

The Yankees are arming and sailing across the lake to burn Toronto again… quick check to see if the 4.t” guns on HMCS Haida are still working, oh right we gave it to Hamilton, ah well I guess we can always get the paddle wheeler ferry MV Trillium and fill it up with assorted Scarberia gang bangers to sail off Centre Island to keep us safe and sound. :


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## aesop081 (28 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> The US are wrong to conduct life-fire exercises without making damn sure there's zero chance of civilians wandering into the firing lanes.



You should stay in your lane Fred.......

USCG runs rather safe ranges at all locations and make every effort possible to prevent accidents.  SURFIREX ( surface firing exercises) are indicated in notice to airmen and notices to mariners , braodcasted on the guard frequency and there are always range safety boats present.  I know, i've seen a few.


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## The Bread Guy (28 Sep 2006)

Globe's a bit behind.....

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49631.0.html


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## 3rd Horseman (28 Sep 2006)

Last time I served the ammo was not lead. Also does the old destroyer sunk off shore in lake Erie or Lake Huron still get used for target practice? Guess this latest issue is not the first time in recent years the the forces of both nations use the great lakes for target practice. Someone needs to stop being a winer and go back to the gin and tonic on the beach house deck.


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## FredDaHead (28 Sep 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> You should stay in your lane Fred.......
> 
> USCG runs rather safe ranges at all locations and make every effort possible to prevent accidents.  SURFIREX ( surface firing exercises) are indicated in notice to airmen and notices to mariners , braodcasted on the guard frequency and there are always range safety boats present.  I know, i've seen a few.



Maybe people who live near them bigass lakes are different, but back where I grew up most people who used small boats on didn't pay much, if any, attention to notices to mariners, and the few who did have radios, didn't listen to the guard frequency much. (ie, the radios were off most of the time) I'm not saying it's smart or that anything that happens to them isn't their fault, but why increase risks for people driving small boats without enough brains to do so? People riding "bigger" boats, and those who have common sense, aren't going to stray into the firing lanes, but there's always going to be stupid people when live-fire exercises are run in an open area.

Anyway, yeah, I shouldn't have strayed out of the gravel road... but it's getting my ride all dusty!


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## aesop081 (28 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Maybe people who live near them bigass lakes are different, but back where I grew up most people who used small boats on didn't pay much, if any, attention to notices to mariners, and the few who did have radios, didn't listen to the guard frequency much. (ie, the radios were off most of the time) I'm not saying it's smart or that anything that happens to them isn't their fault, but why increase risks for people driving small boats



Just like every other training we do, steps are taken to mitigate the risks. I know for a fact the the USCG takes this very seriously  But training is necessary.  If people chose to ignore the warnings, thast their choice and they will have to accept the consequences. I will not speak of the environmental argument as my environmental impact assesement course is far behind me but if the US environmental protection legislation is anything like ours....an EA was done and the USCG had to seriously justify tis action and mitigate the environmental risks just like we do for every single military activity we do on Canadian soil.  The US is concerned about the security of its northern border, i would argue rightfully so, they have to be ready to do their job.


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## Harbinger (29 Sep 2006)

Lead bullets? Don't most modern military rifles, MGs and the like fire FMJ and steel rounds?


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## FredDaHead (29 Sep 2006)

Harbinger said:
			
		

> Lead bullets? Don't most modern military rifles, MGs and the like fire FMJ and steel rounds?



The lefties don't know that.


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## warspite (29 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> The lefties don't know that.


Lets be realistic now.... what do they know? ;D


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## wotan (29 Sep 2006)

The Yanks can patrol their side of the border any way they want.....it's their country.  If folks are upset, they should contact their MPs who will advise the Minister of Foreign Affairs.  The Minister, along with the sitting government, will decide whether it is a matter worthy of discussion with the US.

  Besides, who knew the Yanks had guns?  Sheesh.


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## AmmoTech90 (29 Sep 2006)

Harbinger said:
			
		

> Lead bullets? Don't most modern military rifles, MGs and the like fire FMJ and steel rounds?



Yes the current 5.56mm and 7.62mm are FMJ.  The jacket encases a lead core.  The 5.56mm SS109 has a small (very small) steel penetrator inside the lead core.

Be sure of what you start spouting off, if both sides are telling falsehoods or passing on inaccurate information no one wins, everyone looks like an ass.


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## 3rd Horseman (29 Sep 2006)

I assumed we were talking about 50s, don't the 50s have copper jackets with steel penetrators and no lead core? Ammotech, give us the goods your the expert.


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## Cliff (30 Sep 2006)

Harbinger said:
			
		

> Lead bullets? Don't most modern military rifles, MGs and the like fire FMJ and steel rounds?



The only lead I've seen are in non-military wpns, .22, .32, .38 special, .357, .40-40 .44 and .45 Long. Some of the old military revolvers used lead bullets, but I've never seen or used any. My guess is that revolvers chambered for the .38 special might have used as a sidearm years ago = but I'm not sure.


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## AmmoTech90 (30 Sep 2006)

The original article mentions light weight machine guns, and this article http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060928/NEWS01/609280376/1002/NEWS
mentions the M240-B which is FN GPMG varient so 7.62mm seems to be what they are looking at.  Even if it is .50 cal there is still lead antimony in the bullet, even in AP, I'll leave it at that rather than get into the exact make up.
Try this for non lead 5.56mm http://www.snctec.com/html/en/products/detail.php?id=4&thisSection=77
There are also non-lead 7.62 but they only have an accurate range of 100m and are designed for reduced template ranges.


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## rregtc-etf (10 Oct 2006)

The whole hullabaloo stems from the fact that most politicians don't know a thing about firearms and wouldn't even care to become educated given the opportunity.  Anyone that believes there are no armed police or CG vessels operating in the Great Lakes is living in a fools paradise.  As for the lead contamination, I'm sure there's a hell of a lot more duck hunter's lead shot been deposited in the lakes over the decades than anything the USCG can put out.  I've been scuba diving in both Ontario and Erie, the bottom is a fine silt, no coral, no tropical fish, plenty of zebra mussels.  The bullet will sink and be covered by the silt.  If some lead or copper particles do leech into the water, there's hundreds of millions of litres flushing out to sea, so it shouldn't be a problem.

If the politicians are scared of the coast guard conducting live fire exercises, I suggest they listen to marine band radio announcements and then go hide behind a big tree when the shooting starts.


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## GO!!! (10 Oct 2006)

Well, after reading that article, all I got out of it is that the USCG will be firing LMG into the great lakes. 

What, 5.56 and _maybe_ some 7.62?

Sounds like a non issue to me.


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## TCBF (13 Oct 2006)

As a young tyke in Port Arthur (now part of Thunder Bay) in the sixties, my family joined thousands of other locals touring HMCS Nipigon when it came to visit it's river.  I seem to recall some talk of iher doing live-fire exercises on Lake Superior after it left port.  Any old salts out there remember this?

Tom


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## MarkOttawa (16 Oct 2006)

The Liberal government in 2003 agreed that USCG could use MGs (up to .50 cal. which USCG says it doesn't plan to mount) without violating the 1817 Rush-Bagot Treaty (which did not ban guns from all vessels on the Great Lakes).  Our government also reserved the right to arm Canadian vessels.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/03/15/coastguard-060315.html

Perhaps Mayor Miller should be mad at them.  Meanwhile, the only to be expected dept: Taliban Jack, during the Commons' Question Period today, in highest outraged dudgeon demanded the government tell the US to "shut down the firing" in the Great Lakes. If only someone could shut him down.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/beach+boys/shut+down_20013813.html

_NY Times_ story noting both US and Canadian "concerns":
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/16/us/16lakes.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin

Mark
Ottawa


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## Old Sweat (16 Oct 2006)

It struck me that I had seen the kind of performance Taliban Jack excels in before. You know, the frenzied contortions and the florid language on demand. It is all so predictable, just the subject changes. One day, it is budget cuts, on another, the Afghanistan mission and on a third, the USCG arming their vessels on the Great Lakes. At the risk of getting too personal, I wonder if Big Mouth Billy Bass is his communications coach.


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## tlg (16 Oct 2006)

It's them crazy people that live on Ward Island. You know that ones that pay next to nothing for their houses, complain about everything from the water being too cold to the noise coming from ACROSS the water being too loud. Excommunicate their asses to a nice subdivision and force them to work and pay for stuff instead of having it given to them at next to nothing prices. I walked Ward's late at night once during the summer of '05, and I was scared that the hippies would get me.


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## warspite (17 Oct 2006)

Live fire exercises suspended.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/10/16/coast-guard-guns.html


> U.S. machine-gun fire suspended on Great Lakes
> Last Updated: Monday, October 16, 2006 | 4:54 PM ET
> CBC News
> The U.S. Coast Guard has suspended its machine-gun exercises on the Great Lakes until nearby American residents have their say, Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said Monday.
> ...


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## 3rd Herd (17 Oct 2006)

today's Calgary Herald quotes the "arming of vessels and the live firing has been curtailled while environmental issues are examined" What environmental issues are being examined was not stated.


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## niner domestic (17 Oct 2006)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> today's Calgary Herald quotes the "arming of vessels and the live firing has been curtailled while environmental issues are examined" What environmental issues are being examined was not stated.



I'm hazarding a guess that the issue of whether addtional heavy metal materials will cause further bio-accumulation of said substances into the food chain is what they will be looking at.  (read up on the remediation of the Mid Canada Radar Line - RMC, Dr B Zeeb, if you're interested in what bioaccumulation/bioconcentration and biomagnification of toxic substances can do once it hits the food chain).


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## MarkOttawa (17 Oct 2006)

Jumpin' Jack in the House Oct. 16:

"This is on top of the fact that the vessels of the coast guard have very powerful machine guns on them now."
http://davidakin.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/10/17/2423003.html#comments

Actually M240-B:
http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?template=item&story_id=20464
http://tech.military.com/equipment/view/89056/m-240b-machine-gun.html

What would Jack consider a "very weak" machine gun?  This might fit but I doubt Jack knows about it:
http://www.army.dnd.ca/Land_force/English/2_0_39_1.asp?uSubSection=39&uSection=5

Maybe he'd be happy if the USCG used the US version:
http://www.army.mil/fact_files_site/m-249_saw/index.html

Now here's "...the most powerful machinegun ever manufactured in quantity..."
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg01-e.htm

Mark
Ottawa


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## The Bread Guy (17 Oct 2006)

A bit more of the exchange, for your reading pleasure....
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&DocId=2401737#SOB-1693103

Layton:  "We all know that the Liberals sold us out when they allowed a treaty concocted two centuries ago to keep the Great Lakes demilitarized to be violated."

Guess he didn't check out the Coast Guard's site on this one, with the 2003 letters between CAN & USA:
http://www.uscgd9safetyzones.com/posted/1295/Rush_Bagot_Final.135454.pdf


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## The Bread Guy (20 Oct 2006)

Ya HAD to know it was going to lead to someone suing - usual disclaimer....

*Group plans to sue Coast Guard*
Alleges lead ammo will break water law
Dennis Lien, Pioneer Press (St. Paul, MN), 20 Oct 06http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/living/15802368.htm

Upset with a U.S. Coast Guard plan to hold live-fire training drills on the Great Lakes, a Duluth-based environmental group threatened Thursday to return fire.

Citizens for Environmental Enforcement notified the Coast Guard it will file a Clean Water Act citizen lawsuit in two months if the military doesn't back off.

The Coast Guard wants to mount its Great Lakes vessels with machine guns and conduct target practice in 34 permanent zones, including two off the north shore of Lake Superior. It said it began the drills earlier this year to upgrade its response to post Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist threats from Canada, but has temporarily suspended them.

Curt Leitz, executive director of the nonprofit group, said the bullets would result in almost 7,000 pounds of lead, a toxic metal, being discharged into the lakes each year.

The Clean Water Act bans the discharge of such pollutants into lakes without a permit, he said. He added the Coast Guard also doesn't have a permit for the live-fire training.

"We are for the radical idea that the law should be followed,'' Leitz said.

A Coast Guard spokesman could not be reached for comment.

Because lead causes so many health problems, authorities have worked for decades to reduce its use in the environment, succeeding in having it removed from paint and gasoline. In recent years, it's been banned in shotgun-shell pellets for waterfowl hunting and discouraged or banned in fishing tackle sinkers.

Critics have argued that, besides damaging the lakes' ecosystem, the exercises will be dangerous for unsuspecting boaters who might stray into firing zones and will force others to spend more money on fuel to stay away from them.

Leitz said he believes his organization, formed this summer, is the first to challenge the drills in court.

The 60-day notice letter sent to the Coast Guard on Thursday is required under the Clean Water Act. Marc Fink, a lawyer for the group, said that period gives the Coast Guard a chance to adjust its plans to comply with the law.


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## MarkOttawa (21 Oct 2006)

"Gray Lady's with Jumpin' Jack"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/007930.html

Mark
Ottawa


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## PSY OPS (30 Oct 2006)

kcuf it.

arm them lead babies up with some du238 tips and churn the water up with 6000 rounds a day
chuck in some flouride and chlorine n feed it to them thirsty sun obitches mmm mmm
thats good drinkin  :blotto:


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## Scott (30 Oct 2006)

What the...?



			
				PSY OPS said:
			
		

> :blotto:



Uh huh.

PSY OPS, 

Do you plan to contribute at all here? Or do you just wish to post nonsense like the above?



			
				Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> PSY OPS, that's a pretty generalized statement. If you want to make meaningful points here, make sure they have some meaning.



What the Boss said.


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## paracowboy (30 Oct 2006)

PSY OPS,

In case the site owner, and Scott, haven't made the case clear:

Post something of content and value, or don't post. Right now you are trolling, and that is not tolerated.
Humour is appreciated, idiocy is not.
Political discussion is encouraged, bizarre babbling is not.

To date, you've only managed to make yourself appear a right horse's arse.


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## STONEY (30 Oct 2006)

Canadian nautical charts show that DND has 4 current fireing ranges in lakes area, Meaford , Cedar Springs , Niagara -on- the- Lake & Grimsby. Wheather they are utilized very much or not i don't know.  There used to be other area's but they were discontinued years ago.
As was alluded to earlier, i know that in the 60's & 70's i was on warships that did fireing demo's for invited guests on many occasions while touring the great lakes.  In any case times as we know are changing and we became politicaly & enviromently correct. Many countries militaries now are required to use special ammo on their land ranges to prevent contamination.  I guess the only people who aren't worried about pollution are the poor sods on the receiving end.

Cheers


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## COBRA-6 (30 Oct 2006)

Any legitimate concerns about boater safety or pollution is lost among the rabid anti-Americanism and anti-military rhetoric being spewed by the usual sources... 

It's all fun and games until someone is able to plough a hijacked tanker into the Pickering/Darlington/Bruce nuclear power plant because neither nation has an armed presence on the great lakes... I wonder what _that_ would do for the environment  :


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## PSY OPS (31 Oct 2006)

like I said! du tipped lead bullets actually SAVE the environment!


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