# Non-Issue Kit



## hhour48 (5 Feb 2002)

What is the current CF policy on wearing non-issue kit in the field (i.e. load-bearing gear), provided that it is in OD/CADPAT?

I know that CANFORGEN allows civvie pattern "patrol packs", as long as they are in "acceptable colour"...


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## Black6 (5 Feb 2002)

Check with the RSM!


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## Soldier of Fortune (5 Feb 2002)

I‘m in Cadets but im wondering if in the Reserves/Reg Force if you can bring/wear civvie cammo paint on ex‘s? Does anybody know?


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## armd_recce (5 Feb 2002)

As 6 said, the RSM / SSM / Tp WO is always a good place to start, but even better is to haul it out and beg forgiveness later =).
Policy varies by unit, for ex in mine webbing can be set up how you like it within reason, but woe be unto him who wears a non issue cap.
I‘d say it‘s a safe bet that no unit would allow totally non issue webbing/LBV. 
But there‘s variation of course. I have noticed that many of our 031 friends sport knives on their webbing, which I am all in favour of. Please correct me if I‘m wrong, but I gather that in the inf this is more acceptable than in other trades?


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## enfield (5 Feb 2002)

Most guys carry some sort of knife, not on their webbing, for utility purposes - I have a crappy little knife to cut rope and stuff with with. 

Cam paint? I doubt anyone cares, but the issue stuff works fine.

Load bearing? My unit allows chest rigs, but it all depends on the RSM.


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## Spr Earl (5 Feb 2002)

Engineer‘s are issued a knife,as for kit here at home regulation, but oversea‘s for personel clothing as long as it was green and did not clash with the uniform or op.‘s,as to load bearing vest‘s issue only as it designed for the kit that you must carry in the vest same goes for flack jacket‘s.

 Carry the least and make it light and functionable.


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## rceme_rat (6 Feb 2002)

Not to mention that a lot of the combat clothing (unsure of certain kit items) is designed with properties that wouldn‘t be present in off-the-shelf gear -- reduced IR signature, e.g.


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## enfield (6 Feb 2002)

The 1982-pattern webbing has IR reducing features? The hockey puck-combat boots have a special quality? The Vietnam-era flak jackets o something useful beyond keep you warm? 

This is the kit I use, and as far as I can tell, Canada deploys it‘s troops with. 

I realize Clothe The SOldier and CADPAT supposedly have special qualities. However, to most of us CTS is just a wet dream.


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## sgtdixon (6 Feb 2002)

My unit‘s policy on non-issue kit is: If you are prepared to pack it in and not bitch about how uncomfortable and heavy it gets, Bring It.
I personally have a U.S. Harness (H-Type) with a canadian web belt. On the Two Shoulder straps there are on the Left my Knife and Flashlight(Crook) and on the right are my compass and cammie pouches. On the belt there is a cantten my Comfort Pouch (C7 mag pouch with cooking stuff hot sauce Etc.) my secondary knife my KFS, a butt pack, a Gasmask pouch with various stuffage. And my squadron says as long as i haul it all then have fun.

P.S. Art Eggleton is a Smuck
  :sniper: ................................Art Eggleton

Signing off till i get my Self Heating Pizza in my rations
Sgt. Dixon


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## armd_recce (6 Feb 2002)

Hey there Sgt; 
Good to see you put some thought into how you have your kit set up, keep that up if you go into the regs. Why not go for a complete as issued set of 82 patt to get yourself used to it? 
Generally I like to keep my yoke free from flashlights and pouches in case I need to take a snap shot and can‘t get the butt under my harness. Both shoulders too - never know when you‘ll need to fire around a right hand corner.

And a word to the wise, perhaps it‘s better to slam the MND in your mess than on a public forum. No matter you opinion, he is our superior and loyalty to his office is not optional (remember, loyalty is demanded, respect is earned). It is the same thing as slamming your OC or CO publicly, albeit a few levels removed =)


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## hhour48 (6 Feb 2002)

I understand, that it depends on each unit‘s degree of being "anal"...Some guy from LFAA on SOCNET forums has everything non-issue in the field, except for glove inners...

What about the CF general policy towards this?

I‘m asking primarily because I can get a really good deal on a LBV (made in OD), but what‘s the point of buying one, even really cheap, if I can‘t wear one?   )


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## Recce41 (6 Feb 2002)

Well folks in the real world you will wear issued kit! So all those who get away withit not you will not on tour, tasking with the reg force, or course, so please grow up. The RSMs of res regt.s  may think its cool but its not. I‘ve have had soldier show up with a snipers scope for his C8. on one of my tours. Soon the loadbearing vest will be out to all, and theres nothing more dumb than a big Rambo knife on a belt.

 Sgt J.  CD,CDS com  ( Airborne,Bold and Swift)


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## RCA (7 Feb 2002)

The key word here is ISSUE. You are issued kit for a reason. It gives you what you need. From where I come from the use of non-issue items is restricted. Almost all that you need or require is issued to you. particlarly for the jobs most of us do. (I‘m not talking operations.) 

 Call me anal or what ever, but I sure don‘t won‘t my battey to look like a rag-tag circus, (read lack of professionalism) which is the way some units look guessing from some of the comments posted here. Don‘t get me wrong. Peresonal comforts are you‘re own business. Location of items worn is also personal preference. But when it comes to webbing and unforms, you already have it.

as to knives--We already went thru THAT discussion and as for those who want to buy the "cool" stuff, the axiom is " a fool and his money are vsoon parted"


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## armd_recce (7 Feb 2002)

> Originally posted by Recce41:
> I‘ve have had soldier show up with a snipers scope for his C8. on one of my tours. Soon the loadbearing vest will be out to all, and theres nothing more dumb than a big Rambo knife on a belt.
> 
> 
> ...


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## ryemaybee (7 Feb 2002)

Schwerpunkt...still holding out for issue hatchets?


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## armd_recce (7 Feb 2002)

Ahhh, c‘mon. You know that would be private purchase. Where ya gonna get brass tacks to decorate your tomahawk through the system?


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## cagomez (7 Feb 2002)

About the none issue kit stuff. When I was new (just out of course, never buy non issue stuff during course !) I was really into buying all the non issue stuff. But really, the Queen does give you everything you need, emphasis on "need". It really is a fifty fifty mix. The consensus at my unit is spend all the friggin money you want as long as you still look like a CDN soldier and a member of the unit. That means the same uniform, 82 pattern webbing, helmet and ugh, ruck sack. The only exception to this is for our sepearate Recce platoon that operates within our reg. They can get away with ghillie suits, fancy patrol packs and the type. In the rifle companies though we all look the same on the outside with few minor variations. The short members of our platoon got issued the old A frame style ruck cause the carbon mod frame was almost as tall as they were. A few guys modify their webbing but it is still issued stuff. some have two canteen holders and one guy moved all his mag pouches to one side (seems practical) but noby wheres LBV‘s. Ill admit I have bought a few of my own things but nothing extreme. I have a patrol bag but its the Canadian Peacekeeper type through the catalogue and I also have a camelbak and wool socks froma hiking store that dont turn into giant lint balls. A few guys bought  goretex socks but all of it goes under the uniform. A few things I may purchase are knee pads but they to must go under the combat pants. I‘ll also admit to buying one of those big rambo knives but  looking back it was a mistake. Its to big to carry and its always shoved in the snow shoe holders in my ruck. So basically thats it.  In my unit you look like the rest. You can get by with the issue stuff, it wont kill you to wear it. Remember that the webbing/ kit is a part of the uniform so respect it. You dont want to look like a rag tag bunch of mercs. If deemed otherwise, ops etc, better stuff will be issued to you. Have faith in the system and quite dreaming abou that clothe the soldier crap.


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## enfield (8 Feb 2002)

I‘m sorry, but I have to adisagree with RCA‘s statement.
a) We are issued the kit we are due to budget restraints and political deals, NOT because it is the best equipment for the job. (unless having a ruck and webbing that are completely incompatible is a good thing) 
b) All of what we need and require is not issued. The number of things that I‘ve been told to buy on my own is a long list, beginning with boot bands, PT kit, insoles, and working up to a waist belt for my ruck.
c) A quick glance at the ONLY war-time operation (and hence the only one that really matters) since Korea shows that the Canadian does look like a "rag-tag circus".    
3PPCLI (and supporting elements) is wearing two types of load bearing kit, are painting their gear, and wear jackets they‘ve sewed themselves out of cam blankets. All necessary, but not actions that produce uniformity. 

The British are a great example of non-issue stuff. Their issue kit is superior to ours, but you‘ll still have a hard time finding two soldiers that look exactly the same, especially in the Paras and RM. Looking a the offical RM gallery of photos from operations shows that just about every soldier is wearing a different type of chest rig/webbing/lad bearing vest.  But yet some how they remain professional... 

Personally, I do agree that the Militia goes to far sometimes - and I can think of a few guys I‘ve see that do look like a travelling circus. I also think it‘s a waste for Reservists to spend a fortune on high-speed gear for the couple weekends a year they go to the field. I think the example of RCR soldiers in Bosnia, on a freezing mountain having to keep their sleves rolled up because the rest of the battalion, in the warm valleys, was in summer dress is the opposite end of this spectrum.


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## ender (8 Feb 2002)

There is plenty of stuff that you need that the Queen doesn‘t give you.

For instance, the army issues incredibly crappy non-arch supporting insoles that mess up practically everyone‘s feet.  You have to buy your own insoles.

One canteen of water is not sufficent for a ruck march.  (I mean, you can survive, but really.)  That‘s why a lot of people from my unit, including me, have bought camel backs.  It‘s also a lot easier to drink from one of those that to get your canteen out and put it back whille your moving.

Also, I‘m of the opinion that everyone needs a knife and a gerber.  Because I‘m an Engineer I have both and whenever I end up working with other trades they are always borrowing them off me.  I do have a Field Engineer knife but I prefer my civvie pattern.  I know people that have modified thier rucksack with clips like every single civilian backpack has.  That seems like a good idea, i‘ll get around to it eventually.

So yes, the law says that you can‘t use any non-issue kit.  But the rules also state that cutting the liner out of your beret is a chargeable offense.   In the end it is what works for you, and what your superior will let you get away with.


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## Andyboy (8 Feb 2002)

Recce41 said:
"Well folks in the real world you will wear issued kit! So all those who get away withit not you will not on tour, tasking with the reg force, or course, so please grow up. The RSMs of res regt.s may think its cool but its not. I‘ve have had soldier show up with a snipers scope for his C8. on one of my tours. Soon the loadbearing vest will be out to all, and theres nothing more dumb than a big Rambo knife on a belt."

__________________________________________

Is this the real world you were referring to?

__________________________________________
What the troops are doing for themselves 
Recently reported in the Calgary Herald: 

Frustrated by having to wear boreal green camouflage uniforms in a desert environment, Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan began slapping brown latex paint onto their rifles, bulletproof vests and other equipment Thursday. 

Contingent commander Lt.-Col. Pat Stogran termed the chameleon-like change by the 28 soldiers in one company of the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry an example of the initiative he expects from his soldiers. One infantry officer characterized it as traditional Canadian make-do. 

"It‘s a case of improvise, adapt and overcome," said Maj. Mike Blackburn, commander of 5 Platoon, Bravo Company. 

Blackburn‘s soldiers used all manner of techniques to copy the desert camouflage of their American colleagues. 

Using paint scrounged from a source they refused to divulge, the soldiers drenched their fabric helmet covers, splashed their bulletproof vests, painted their black gun barrels and daubed the stocks of their machine guns. 

To imitate the texture of the desert terrain, some soldiers poured fine brown sand onto the wet paint. Others covered sections of their rifles with desert-camouflage tape. They‘d purchased a $25 roll of the tape from a gun and military memorabilia store before leaving Edmonton. 

"I don‘t suppose the government will be reimbursing us," said one soldier. 

The browning of Blackburn‘s soldiers will now be copied by all 750 soldiers of the Canadian contingent, said Stogran. 

"Camouflage is very much an individual thing. It is certainly in our bag of tricks to do this," he said. 

The Canadian army unveiled its new line of desert camouflage battle gear this week, but the first uniforms aren‘t expected to be distributed to soldiers in the field until the summer, too late for the soldiers now in Afghanistan. 

It‘s better to adapt than to whine, Stogran said. 

"We have to focus on mission success and not cry about spilled milk," he said. 

Make-do desert camouflage is nothing new for Canadians, one soldier said. Similar adaptations were made in Somalia but the 

improvisations of Blackburn‘s soldiers go far beyond paint and tape. 

Cpl. Chris Arnott was a walking example of the art of improvisation. 

On his right shoulder, Arnott sported a small two-way radio, one of a pair purchased from Future Shop for $70. It will allow him to stay in touch with his section buddy when conditions allow unrestricted radio communication. 

Arnott bought extra pouches so he could carry more magazines of ammunition for his assault rifle. Since his rifle is equipped with a grenade launcher, he also bought a $50 American vest designed to hold 36 grenades. 

"The army gave us bandoleers to carry our grenades but bandoleers jump and jostle when we‘re moving," he explained. 

Strapped to his right thigh were three more rifle ammunition pouches, stitched together by a friend in Edmonton. He can now carry a total of 13 magazines, each filled with 30 bullets. 

Each of his ammunition pouches -- the ones issued to him by the army as well as his personal ones -- was held closed with a snap-fastener purchased from Mountain Equipment Co-op rather than the army-issue fastener, which he finds difficult to close. 

Change was the order of the day Thursday. Some soldiers stripped the pouch pockets off the front of their jackets and sewed them onto their sleeves. 

"If it‘s on the front of your jacket, you can‘t get into them once you‘ve put your bulletproof vest over top," one soldier explained. 

Before he left Edmonton, Arnott also picked up a pair of kneepads similar to the ones supplied to American foot soldiers. At Mountain Equipment Co-op he purchased additional gloves. To put it all in, he had to buy an extra-large Co-op bag. 

"I spent $300 of my own money," Arnott said. "It‘s worth it though, if it can add to my comfort, speed and safety." 

Good for them. Shame on the Gov‘t for having to have them do it


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## Marauder (8 Feb 2002)

Recently reported in the Calgary Herald: 
"Frustrated by having to wear boreal green camouflage uniforms in a desert environment, Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan began slapping brown latex paint onto their rifles, bulletproof vests and other equipment Thursday. 
Contingent commander Lt.-Col. Pat Stogran termed the chameleon-like change by the 28 soldiers in one company of the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry an example of the initiative he expects from his soldiers. One infantry officer characterized it as traditional Canadian make-do. 
"It‘s a case of improvise, adapt and overcome," said Maj. Mike Blackburn, commander of 5 Platoon, Bravo Company. 
Blackburn‘s soldiers used all manner of techniques to copy the desert camouflage of their American colleagues. 
Using paint scrounged from a source they refused to divulge, the soldiers drenched their fabric helmet covers, splashed their bulletproof vests, painted their black gun barrels and daubed the stocks of their machine guns. 
To imitate the texture of the desert terrain, some soldiers poured fine brown sand onto the wet paint. Others covered sections of their rifles with desert-camouflage tape. They‘d purchased a $25 roll of the tape from a gun and military memorabilia store before leaving Edmonton. 
"I don‘t suppose the government will be reimbursing us," said one soldier. 
The browning of Blackburn‘s soldiers will now be copied by all 750 soldiers of the Canadian contingent, said Stogran. 
"Camouflage is very much an individual thing. It is certainly in our bag of tricks to do this," he said. 
The Canadian army unveiled its new line of desert camouflage battle gear this week, but the first uniforms aren‘t expected to be distributed to soldiers in the field until the summer, too late for the soldiers now in Afghanistan. 
It‘s better to adapt than to whine, Stogran said. 
"We have to focus on mission success and not cry about spilled milk," he said. 
Make-do desert camouflage is nothing new for Canadians, one soldier said. Similar adaptations were made in Somalia but the improvisations of Blackburn‘s soldiers go far beyond paint and tape. 
Cpl. Chris Arnott was a walking example of the art of improvisation. On his right shoulder, Arnott sported a small two-way radio, one of a pair purchased from Future Shop for $70. It will allow him to stay in touch with his section buddy when conditions allow unrestricted radio communication. 
Arnott bought extra pouches so he could carry more magazines of ammunition for his assault rifle. Since his rifle is equipped with a grenade launcher, he also bought a $50 American vest designed to hold 36 grenades. 
"The army gave us bandoleers to carry our grenades but bandoleers jump and jostle when we‘re moving," he explained. 
Strapped to his right thigh were three more rifle ammunition pouches, stitched together by a friend in Edmonton. He can now carry a total of 13 magazines, each filled with 30 bullets. 
Each of his ammunition pouches -- the ones issued to him by the army as well as his personal ones -- was held closed with a snap-fastener purchased from Mountain Equipment Co-op rather than the army-issue fastener, which he finds difficult to close. 
Change was the order of the day Thursday. Some soldiers stripped the pouch pockets off the front of their jackets and sewed them onto their sleeves. 
"If it‘s on the front of your jacket, you can‘t get into them once you‘ve put your bulletproof vest over top," one soldier explained. 
Before he left Edmonton, Arnott also picked up a pair of kneepads similar to the ones supplied to American foot soldiers. At Mountain Equipment Co-op he purchased additional gloves. To put it all in, he had to buy an extra-large Co-op bag. 
"I spent $300 of my own money," Arnott said. "It‘s worth it though, if it can add to my comfort, speed and safety." 

Good God Almighty, why are those young rastabouts not being brought up on charges? How dare they imply NDHQ and the CDS have not given them the best, most up to date equipment available to any soldiers around the world today? They should be ashamed to be playing the parts of clowns in such a circus.

So much for not being able to customize you kit in the Almighty Reg F. (This is the point where I and my fellow Res rats should bow in awestruck reverence.) But I‘m sure the RSM will start taking heads for his desk soon enough.

Remember Egg‘s mantra: We are the best equipped and trained army to ever grace a battlefield.


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## enfield (8 Feb 2002)

hmm... breast pockets move dto shoulders... Good idea. I think I‘ll have to write some of that stuff down. 

"With the best against (until we get to stressed) the Best (Third World)(as long as the US takes us there)"


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## Jungle (8 Feb 2002)

You know someone up the CofC will go BALLISTIC soon... troops painting CADPAT!!! I admit they are destroying the uniform, but I agree they are adapting to the situation. This is what you get when you neglect your military.


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## RCA (8 Feb 2002)

I guess the point I was trying to make, the clothes don‘t make the soldier. I omitted operations when I mentioned none issue kit, because when the bullets are or maybe flying, the self presevation and adaptation make sence as witnessed by 3 PPCLI.

However most of us back here are not in that position. I defy anyone that he needs to modify his clothing/eqpt to carry 13 mag during trg.

Yes we have shortfalls and inadquacies, but there must be limits. In peacetime, go to the field and when you find a an ex were indivuals are allowed to use and carry all types of non-issue, you will probably find a breakdown in discpline somewhere along the line, from the RSM on down.

The mistake a lot make is that having all this type of kit makes them a soldier. Wrong, your skills make you a sodlier, and dress and deportment show you are are soldier. Don‘t get me wrong. When the sh** hits the fan, you adapt to survive. I‘s find ways to carry as much ammo and a pistol to boot. But we are not at war or operations and there fore should set some sort of boundries.


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## enfield (8 Feb 2002)

Agreed, limits should be set..however, they should be fairly loose. The old maxim "train like you fight, fight like you train" comes to mind here.

My feet and back can be destroyed by years of ex‘s just as well as an operation. The notion of hundreds of soldiers lining up at MEC to buy evetrything they actually need to fight just before leaving is doesn‘t seem right. I thought the idea of training was to replicate the conditions of war as closely as possible? Why should the rules change when you hit the ground for real? Everything like that should have been sorted out LONG before you land... 
Besides, it‘s not like the public ever actually sees Canadian soldiers (and if they do the chances of them recognizing them as Cdn soldiers is small)


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## bossi (8 Feb 2002)

hmmm ... uniform ... uniform ... hmmm ...
Once upon a time, didn‘t we all wear the same uniform, in order to distinguish friendly from enemy ... or is it just my imagination ... ?

Unfortunately, I‘m marooned in Nova Scotia (without my reference books), but I definitely remember reading a story from WWII - at a captured airfied in France, a Canadian was fooling around with some captured German kit, namely a helmet ... a senty plugged him, dead.

Also, I sure hope the latex paint doesn‘t mess up the anti-IR signature - sure would be unfortunate if it were to turn out they‘d inadvertently destroyed the protective qualities of their issue uniforms (and, I sure hope the paint they‘re using isn‘t that carcinogenic stuff ...)

Bottom line:  I sure hope none of our guys buys it due to stupidity (and you can read into that whatever you like).
Dileas Gu Brath.
MB


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## Jungle (8 Feb 2002)

Bossi is right. Uniforms were introduced so we could distinguish friend from foe. But over time that aim has somewhat changed... now the uniform is also practical, part of the protective system of the soldier. That said, I do not believe an extra water bottle or a few mags will make a very big difference, or signal a breakdown in discipline.


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## Spr Earl (9 Feb 2002)

A lot of good point‘s have been made on this thread!

 The one thing that made me give my head a shake was when I read the new CadPat is made from Nylon/Cotton mix just the same a the present combat‘s and we all know how they melt,I thought were going to all Cotton like other Force‘s as cotton is warmer and more fire resistant and doesnt stick to your skin when afire.

 The reason I mention this is just after the Falkland‘s War the Brit‘s released a study of battle field injuries and top of the list was burn‘s then foot related injuries as at the time the Brit boot‘s were crap.

 Any one out there have any idea‘s why we are still using Nylon/Cotton mix ,cost?


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## Jungle (9 Feb 2002)

The troops like the nylon/cotton mix because it dries fast... cotton only will absorb up to 25 times it‘s weight in water. But when it burns... that has not been tried on the troops during the trials.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Feb 2002)

I once took instruction from an old (read Korean War) RCR CSM. The very topic of personal ancilliary equipment was talked about in our patrolling phase. His comments on the subject were that you must carry your issue equip because that‘s what the supply system will be set up for. As far as weapons, ditto, but if you wanted to carry something extra be it a knife of whatever type or a twelve gauge trench gun, the ammo, maint and lugging it were your responsibility. It‘s largely a morale factor, and if a person was hurt (wounded) because he felt you didn‘t let him carry his extra gear, you‘ve just created a major problem. Right or wrong? Sorry I‘ll defer to practical experience.


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## sgtdixon (13 Feb 2002)

Sorry about the Hon. Art Eggleton thing its just hes a bit of a scrooge when it comes to funding, and Ill concur on that seeing as how I have Scholarship Exams for my Six week Survival Course next week in Ponoka Ab.
And thanks as well for the Comment on the Resemblence to a type 82 pattern rig, My Father
Mcpl Race Dixon who was Airborne (Service Commando) during most of his 16 years with the forces helped me set it up.

Well got to Go Im teaching tonite at my Sqn. a class on Knife Sharpening!
Hehe....Someone call the medics Now  :mg:


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## JRMACDONALD (14 Feb 2002)

NON ISSUE KIT!!!- my belly is laughing sooo hard , i think, i‘m gonna pee!  1. having been RCR(for a long while ),( i understand the ‘ANAL " attitude) there is a lot of "neat stuff" out there( it‘s great to have and carry) 2. the stuff you are issued ,is issued, for a  REASON ( the minimum  amount of kit you DO need) 3. did i carry extra stuff ? yep , out of sight! 3. now being Res F, I allow myself a little "flexibilty". 4. do i put up with Purple/lime green camel baks  in the field , on my troops?med Blue polypro/polar fleece? SORRY, NO! 5. we are about 15 -20 yrs behind the brits as to understanding some kit works,some doesn‘t, that‘s why the Clothe the Soldier program is implemented ( toooo bad, not in time for us to deploy to afghanistan!) 5. if you WANT to spend the $$$, and can Hump it, carry it. ( just make sure you use it). if its on your webbing/body to look cool, you are an IDIOT!!


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## Black6 (14 Feb 2002)

Some of you guys sound like you are permanently on course! Lol

And you, Recce 41 (I don’t really care what RCA has to say), of all people surprised me with your issued kit drivel. (Tisk, Tisk) I suppose you haven’t had a decent night’s rest since Strogan’s boys painted their uniforms desert tan   

Enfield and Recceguy make sense. Wear what you need within reason/taste when in the field (if you don’t know you will be told).

Uniformity has it’s place – on the parade square!


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## Alter Ego (14 Feb 2002)

There is nothing on earth so anal as a Guards Snr NCO when it comes to uniformity and appearance. That being said, my Pl was free to wear whatever they wanted, so long as I didn‘t "see" it. I took great pains not to "see" an OD polar fleece (before they were issue) or polypro thermals. I myself wore a Remington OD gore-tex jacket whenever it rained...but I wore it under my cbt shirt or issue raingear. I drew the line at purple neck warmers and US cam LBVs. 
There is a need for uniformity that goes beyond simply being anal, or for appearance sake. For example, in my Pl and indeed throughout the Company, field dressings were ALWAYS to be found in the small utility pouch on the left side of the 82 webbing. Why? If a soldier is wounded, you use HIS/HER field dressing, not your own dressing. Extra ammo was always carried in the butt pack and the center outside pouch of the rucksack for the same reason. 
On the other hand, my one enduring legacy at my unit is this saying: "Any idiot can be uncomfortable. Being uncomfortable does not require practice, it comes naturally when the circumstances warrant it."
I felt quite comfortable sleeping in my Mont-Bell -12C sleeping bag inside my bivvy. Why? Because it only weighs 4 pounds, and is a better piece of kit than issue.

Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense
11 Sunray Minor (Ret‘d)


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## cagomez (14 Feb 2002)

"any idoit can be uncomfortable" always loved that one. 

Another favourite saying for all those diehard rambo types:

"There is a thin line between being hard and being stupid, Bloggins I think you just crossed it"

In keeping with this whole kit issue comfortability to me is the compelling reason to buy all the gucci crap, as apose to servicability and usability. Getting all the high speed stuff would be great, gortex everything and a sleeping bag the size of a bread loaf. But practically speaking all the cool stuff is darn expensive ... trust me I looked ... and last time I checked my pay stub us grunts dont make too much money.  Previous posts have mentioned that purchasing high tech kit shows initiative in your trade. I agree but here is another idea, why not shift that initiative to actually working on field craft and useful battle skills. Ive overheard dozens of FNGs talking about how poorly equipped we are compared to other armies, spend hundreds on gucci gear and GPS and complain they get cant get good taskings or get on recce courses. But at the same time they cant use a map and compass, there IA drills are horrible (and dangerous) and they have trouble working the bloody coleman stove and lantern.
The only people Ive seen decked out in all the high speed kit are the newer privates and maybe a few cpls. The NCOs instead figure out how to make the best of what they get, few alterations to webbing and ruck but still mostly issued stuff. Im talking about actually wearing the 82 webbing properly and correctly assembling (all those strap jobbies) and packing issued rucks. Now I am totally against those back breaking anomolies but will admit when worn and assemblied correctly will fit better than the kit bomb packs found on many recruits. Now like most of you I too am waiting for CTS gear and I have been "sized" for CADPAT, and am expecting to get my kit within the next 8 to 10 decades. So be it. I have better things to do while I wait besides complaining, like actually learning and helping out the new guys. Now dont get me wrong any idoit can be uncomfortable... and also broke. Ill admit to buying a few things here and there. One is my camelbak . The more water the better and its easier to drink on the move. Second is a set of kneepads worn semi-comfortably under combatpants, cause the mashed up joints is usually found in the more experienced types and Im looking to gain lots of experience. These are a few items that are pretty cheap to come buy and are actually useful. Another thing I noticed with non-issue, is the servicability factor. The kit is good to have but expensive, and not issued throughthe supplie train. You rip your cbt pants or what not you can get it replaced for free (givin the proper circumstance). But with the your own stuff you break it too bad so sad. Your sgt aint gonna care about you $200 dollar gortex LBV getting dirty when he‘s screaming at you to crawl up and take a trench. 

So here are a few of my opinions on non-issue kit. If I have offended anyone, sorry. I am just giving advice based on past experience and dont mean to offend anyone. Gucci kit is nice to have but is certainly not needed. Yes it is a crying shame that are kit is 50 yrs old and that were have to spray paint it to keep up with the rest of the world. But in the end we are still soldiers .... so soldier on


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## sgtdixon (14 Feb 2002)

Gucci Kit...hehe
I just spent this Thursday and Last thursday teaching and Lecturing on Boonie Kit and the Old Combats that they(Our Supply officer and Survival Instructor) "Skillfully Aquire" from 3 PPCLI and the LER just before they throw them out so that our cadet will at least feel speacial when we run a weekend ex. So these cadets get their Cammies and then they Haul the Mom‘s and Pops to Edmonton to goto the Canex and to Milarm (www.milarm.com) to buy all the Gucci and Hi tech kit they can. Next week they come back with a full 30 pds or more of unneeded Sh**, and i then have to explain to them that if they want to bring this that they will have to carry all bye the selves. I am the Air equivelant of a CSM and picture this a four foot little kid weighs 85 pds, his only skill is he cant detach his joints and spin his arms and legs around, and he has gear out the wazoo and he looks ready to kill, excluding the fact that he can barely move!
I myself usually bring more than the average person on these trips including a canadian issue Trenching shovel ($20 Buck in new cond at Milarm in Edmonton) and a one man Bivy cover so i can abandon the cabins at our camp in athabasca. I carry this because I can and because I will not complain, but i usually have to bring in my Buttpack 2 or three extra pairs of gloves and wollie socks for the cadet who have forgetten theirs, just to ease their time of four days in the bush (No more than four usually wouldnt want to actually get them used to the boonies) but i say if your going to buy new Kit or extraaneous kit clear it with your RSM and CSM first then see if it is actually useful, if not Leave it at home. For the best results stick with yyour Issue Gear, its old But you‘ll be reciving your new Cadpat LBV soon enough.

By the way this is off topic but i shot a 96 out of 100 on a marksmanship competition for cadets Last week, now to Convince my dad that i can shoot well enough to get my own rifle
  :sniper:  
Dixon Out


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## cagomez (14 Feb 2002)

Heres a tip, try not packing extra socks and I can guarantee you that your troop loops will never ever forget extra socks or gloves

Try the PWT 3 ( or is it 4) with the run down - fun times - just be sure to fire on your own target !!!!!

  :mg:


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## Alter Ego (14 Feb 2002)

My last word on non-issue kit..."One man, one kit." Meaning, your rucksack goes EVERYWHERE with you. If you still think that your hi-speed, low-drag Gucci kit is worth its weight after carrying it on a 48hr patrol...well then it must be useful. I used to find that after the first long-range patrolling ex, rucksacks would suddenly get ALOT lighter on the next go-around.

As for the hi-tech stuff being expensive, my wife and I had an understanding about my military pay...it was all for the Mess and new kit. Nice to be able to afford it (after many years of going without)
On the other hand, she immediately laid claim to the retirement gratuity (about $5K) on the grounds that SHE had earned it over the last 12 years...not a bad point.


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## Brad Sallows (14 Feb 2002)

Looking at the kit soldiers have made do with for the past 200 years, I don‘t think we‘re doing too badly even with the pre-CTS stuff.

Lessons learned hard are learned well.


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## Recce41 (15 Feb 2002)

Well Blacky and others I‘ been Recce most of my Armour Career and you hump with you what you need. I‘ve been on a LRRPs, where you care your Ammo, Water/Rations and a change of socks/tshirt. Also a Jumper you learn that can‘t bring you Guchi kit. So grow up get out of the Res thought, that is one reason us Regs look down on some of you. Yes some kit is good, camelbacks, a fleece. But your kick ***  webbing would not go good. If I saw some dumbie with S*** on his ruck are webbing I wouldn‘t allow him to Jump. 
 When we had those trusty lil Lynxs you never had room for extra kit. So like I said get withthe system, we‘re had good kit and getting better So not F*** withthe system.

 Sgt J.   CD,CDS com     " Airborne, Bold and Swift"  :tank:


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## RCA (16 Feb 2002)

Somehow Black6 you seem to do all, know all. However some of us on this board have other opinions, whether you like them or not.

This thread has got further then it should have or, I would have thought. However, I do believe in “ anyone can be uncomfortable.” If you want to wear pink pantyhose underwear under your combat, so be it. However the outerwear (ie uniform, webbing, helmet etc) was issued you for a reason. To use. For you P Res out there, you do not own your kit, so consider it rented. 

For the ones just joining up. Learn to use to stuff you have first, before you decide you have to modify it , or need something else. “One man, One kit” does mean something to those of us whom have been around.

No one will ever argue whether you wear an extra canteen, or your mag pouches on one side. But on trg in Canada, limitations will be set. It comes done to doing as you are told. Don’t like, get out. The CSM, SSM, BSM, & RSM will always have that prerogative.

My concern is that this thread is showing new soldiers misconceptions before they actually know where their ***  is from a hole in the ground. It is our responsibility to show them.

Black6 - Whether you care what I say or not, I will say it because I care.

G17 to Black6 over.


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## Korus (16 Feb 2002)

Still being in the recruiting phase, I was wondering.. What do reservists (Infantry) get issued? You say we get what we need, so what do we need? (If anything for some reason is sensitive info, don‘t bother saying it here, though I‘m sure all of you already know that)

(No, I‘m not looking to buy anything extra and ‘cool‘)


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## enfield (16 Feb 2002)

The list of kit you‘ll get is very, very long.... Some of it you will probably never use.
It‘s all pretty-much common sense - rucksack, webbing, uniforms, boots, socks, jacket, fleece, long underwear, plus much, much more. 

No one‘s going to say anything if you wear hiking socks instead of the issue ones - just make sure it‘s a dark color or grey. No white or pink!! The most common non-issue pice of kit is probably an old-style tubular frame ruck (if you find done at a surplus store, BUY IT!! Most surplus stores, if they get one, send them off to Edmonton or Pet, where the big market is)


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## Sapper Bloggins (5 Mar 2002)

The " REMF‘S" GET FIRST DIBS ON ALL THE NEWEST KIT THEN WE‘RE LEFT W/ ALL THE IRREGULAR SIZES. tHIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR FAR TOO LONG  :evil:    :fifty:


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## BillP (7 Mar 2002)

It is rather interesting to see on the DND site "image section", newpaper pix, and on the T.V. the various items of kit being worn by the CDN troops in Afghanistan! I have seen troops wearing 82 pattern webbing, Bosnia vests, some with the new LBV, and others wearing "highspeed" chestrigs. The combination of various/differing load carriage seems to indicate the fact of "using what works for you!", moreso than adhering to a concept of uniformity. Any comments on this?


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## Paul Gagnon (8 Mar 2002)

> Originally posted by Schwerpunkt:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


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## portcullisguy (11 Mar 2002)

A knife is a tool.  Big, small, serrated, Rambo-like, doesn‘t matter.

If you wave one at me I will **** myself and do whatever you want.

If I have my own to wave back I expect both of us will come away worse for wear.

When I was a cadet, I wanted to "look cool" like all the other cadets on EX and sure enough, you end up carrying a lot of crap you never use or need.

At my current job (customs officer, some may recall), I see other officers carrying all sorts of nonsense on their belts they never use or that jsut wiegh them down.

Now, I am very task-oriented -- I ask myself this important question before making most decisions at work:  "Do I need this?  Will this assist me or burden me?"  If it has no clear use, it gets binned.

Everything I carry on belt-kit I use almost daily.  Anything else I need occasionally goes in my briefcase, and I‘ll rummage for it when I need it.


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## gun plumber (12 Nov 2004)

In regards to non-issue(kitshop) kit?We all understand that you can't waltz around in another countries uniform on ex but with all the options of "snivel kit" that exists out there,where do you draw the line?
I was talking to one of the local reserve guys today and the topic of kit came up.He was miffed because his section commander would not allow him to use his peacekeeper modular rucksack on exercise. I mentioned to him that there was a standard,expecially on course,that had to be maintained and at least for the time being,he'd probably be better off leaving that piece of kit in his locker.
To this he replied that he and his section mates use other items of non-issue orign like hyration packs,day bags,pouches and the such and get no grief about it, and were even   encouraged to support the base kitshop by buying these things from them.Why wernt they allowed to use these items if they were encourged to buy them by his section comdr. He also challenged that if there was a standard on course,why did his instructors use the 64 pattern frame and the kitshop 64 pattern bag while everyone else had to use the issued ruck?
I did'nt comment on this and left the conversation thinking"He's got a point there..".
I myself am an advocate of non-issue kit,but not when said kit gets foolish(the gypsy caravan look,or when you need your own truck to haul it around for you)and am wondering what everyone else thinks on this topic.
What do you think is overboard and draw the line at?Any examples?What is an absolute no-no?
Just courious.


modified for grammer


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## robmika (13 Nov 2004)

Good questions...  Its a line I walk at the unit myself... as a snr NCO...

First lets get this out of the way... of course what the CO or RSM says is what goes.

Enough said..

So whats the line... I think it can be drawn fairly well.. still a little grey, but lets all be adults here.

I have jacked up my troops to had the gall to show up wearing woodland camo rigs and pouches... obviously that is too "conspicuous" for us non-yanks.

and I have jacked up my troops before for using kit that maybe olive drab, but it was cheap polyester (read plastic-y) made in korea.

So... when dont I jack them... to me it has to fit in, either olive or cadpat, and it has to be of a quality that will last in field conditions (ie. 1000d cordura, nylon thread, taped seams, etc).. as a rule you can look to some of the more reputable gear producers such as eagle, tactical tailor, tiger tactical, peacekeeper, etc, and say that if it is in CADPAT or olive it is good to go.

yah yah yah.. i know that there are puritans out there that feel that "everyone must wear canadian issue" , "canadian gear is some of the best in the world", "you cannot recognize if they are canadian if they are not wearing 100% CDN gear"... and so on and so on and so on... one.. get out to the field a bit and actually RUCK THE BOONIES,,,  PUT IN A COUPLE RAIDS>>> DO A FEW OPs>>> and so on... (all within a week with minimal resup. you will see how "good" our gear is... it maybe not the "worst" on the planet.. but it IS 84 pattern... do the math.. that is the ergonomics, technology, and creativity of TWENTY years ago... we HAVE come a littel ways since then.

And if a troop WANTS to spend a few buck to make his job a little more comfortable oreasier, then he becomes MORE EFFECTIVE.... 

So to me it is the color (to remain within the "politics" of the CF) and the quality of gear.

ROB


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## Britney Spears (13 Nov 2004)

Doesn't answer your question directly, but I think it's a good point.

I direct your attention to the attached pictures that I found on another forum, they are from a "Robin Sage" excercise, which is the final phase/ FTX of the qualification course for the US Army SF.















How much gucci kit do you see there? Very little, heck, that American webbing looks downright painful to wear. Yet the vast majority of our infantry soldiers will probably never experience training on the same level and intensity. 

One of the rifle wizards here (I think it may have been KevinB) once made a comment that the C-7 will outperform the majority of the troops who use it. I think this also holds true for most other issued kit. For the vast majority of troops no on operations, you don't need any gucci kit to be an effective and competent soldier, and your efforts are better directed at improving individual soldier skills.


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## gun plumber (13 Nov 2004)

Good points for both sides.
Since I already admitted to being a gear slut,I'll try my best to remain impartial and carry on a proper conversation.
Your statement referance"you dont need gucci kit to be effective...."is a sore point with me.Yes,you are right,most of the issued kit is all you require to do your job,after all the Army even gives you 5 days worth of drawers!But where the sore part hits is,even not on operations,you still have to be dry,warm and comfortable to be at your best.Granted,the risk in CFB Anywhere during ex is pretty low,but morale in the field is what makes you enjoy your job and get the most out of your training.
If you can,by spending a little money,make your field experiences more enjoyable,and hence,more "user friendly" rather than saying"I can't wait till End ex!" than is'nt that the overall goal?
Your point about the US special forces is true.Those guys are as hard as Christmas candy,but I garantee
they got some of thier snivel kit with them,no matter how small.
Thank you so far for the interesting points...


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## gun plumber (13 Nov 2004)

I dug this up to illustrate what I think is alittle overboard.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/18144.0.html


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## D-n-A (13 Nov 2004)

In regards to being on course, for the most part(mainly with recruit courses) the instructers want the recruits to be the same, and use the same kit so nobody is different etc. And thet get to learn the kit that they've just been issued.


As for the US SF troops, yes on course they wear the old LC-1 ALICE gear, but once they get to a SFG they get more gucci kit. Look at pictures of them in Iraq and Afghanistan, haven't seen any of them using ALICE gear, alot of them have some gucci looking LBVs an chest rigs, plus wearing "native" clothing, as it helps them do their job an blend in. 

Usuaully, atleast from what I've seen, the US Army is more strict on non-issue kit than we are, for its "normal" troops atleast.


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## KevinB (13 Nov 2004)

I'd really like to know the date of that photo from the Q course.   But they do intentional get beasted on that course and what better way to do it than with the webbing (non of which is SF issue even for support pers).   

Secondly course are just that courses - I woudl not expect to use my Kifaru EMR (love it BTW) on any sort of leadership course as the idea is to set a standard and keep a grip of those details - with seperate kit it is hard to do.

Other than that.   I can send you some pics from ODA's deployed and they don't look nothing like they did in the Pineland pic.


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## D-n-A (13 Nov 2004)

Kevin, the dates for the pictures are on the bottem right corner of each photo.


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## KevinB (13 Nov 2004)

:-[  my bad - forest/trees whoops.

 I am guessing (and I will confirm with a buddy in Bragg) that the kit is owned by the school and issued to candidates (like rucks at CABC)


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## Long in the tooth (13 Nov 2004)

Seeing as Rememerbrance is just past us, I wonder what our predecesors would think of all our 'snivel' kit gortex and polar fleece?  I was always amazed tjem we went to the US how much money we would spend on kit...  specifically, the us sleepshirt is very close in design to our pull over, yet had to be re-designed to meet our standards.  Sometimes I think the CF overengineers things.


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## McG (13 Nov 2004)

gun plumber said:
			
		

> He also challenged that if there was a standard on course,why did his instructors use the 64 pattern frame and the kitshop 64 pattern bag while everyone else had to use the issued ruck?


If a standard is being enforced and the enforcers are themselves breaking with that standard, then I would not draw up the conclusion that the standard is invalid.  I would conclude a leadership/professionalism failure in those charged with keeping the standard (regardless of how well it is enforced on those below them).

Day packs & hydration systems are not universally available to Canadian soldiers.  If kit does not exist, then there should be scope for guys to get their own.  The rucksack is universally available.  If your rucksac is damaged in the course of training, then the CF is prepaired to replace it.  The CF has no interest in replacing the pack you bough in the kit shop or at MEC for whatever amount you were prepared to spend at that time.


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## pbi (13 Nov 2004)

> Seeing as Rememerbrance is just past us, I wonder what our predecesors would think of all our 'snivel' kit gortex and polar fleece?  I was always amazed tjem we went to the US how much money we would spend on kit...  specifically, the us sleepshirt is very close in design to our pull over, yet had to be re-designed to meet our standards.  Sometimes I think the CF overengineers things.



Canadian soldiers have always been well known for picking up bits of kit they like, so I imagine our predecessors probably latched on to whatever they could get away with. We are far better paid than any of our forefathers, so we can buy the stuff that catches our eye when they might not have been able to spare the coin.

As for "over-engineering": I remember only too well the absolutely shyte standard of  most of our kit over the last 30 years. Most of it was rubbish. We are miles ahead now (I get a new piece of kit thrown at me every time I go near Camp Julien), including of the kit that MOST US types probably have, although they are getting better. The answer IMHO is to expand the scale of issue and see to it that we all have the good kit. The cost would probably be equivalent to the personal expense accounts of any two Cabinet Ministers for a year. Cheers.


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## Britney Spears (13 Nov 2004)

AoS, KevinB: 

<a href=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15816&highlight=robin+sage>Here's</a> the original thread on militaryphotos.net.

Quote from poster: 


> actually in sage, you could bring out any gear u wanted during the excersise (the only time in the Q course they give you that option actually)... so two of our guys did have chest rigs (racks also known as) .... but for the most part, you can complete mission without the fancy stuff, *why bother getting your personel stuff messed up for simply a training mission.*
> 
> when we get to teams they issue us a truck load of the really nice stuff so we hear



My thoughts exactly. The only pieces of non-issued "military" kit I've ever bought are my $10 volleyball kneepads (I don't play volleyball). 
  
Most troops, myself included, go through a phase after battle school where we are convinced that the issued kit is the source of all our troubles (and not the fact that we're just young and dumb), and that we can all become JTF candidates if we just buy the right aftermarket parts. Well, good thing for my wallet that I never acted on my instinct. 
Training excercises are times to hone  individual soldiering and leadership skills, not fashion shows.  Wearing a $300 chest rig on a weekend excercise to do 3 section attacks is just silly.  Remeber our friend "tacsit"? I couldn't believe how many serious reply posts it took before someone finally called him out. I thought he was a clown after reading his second post.


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## X Royal (13 Nov 2004)

If the kit is for non issued kit and it is not blatently obvious then I would not have a problem as long as the soldiers had all thier issued kit with them as per thier units field kit list.
 One time when inspecting the men before a parade I came across a highland soldier attached to 1 RCR wearing a gerber boot knife in his sock while wearing dress uniform with kilt. Needless to say he heard from myself and others it was a definite no go.

Best Wishes


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## Yeoman (13 Nov 2004)

to me you don't need anything different with the tac vest
and same goes for the ruck, and clothing.
but as for t-shirts, polarfleece, sleeping bags, socks, boots (so long as they are under 8 inches), touques, gloves, knee and elbow pads (personally HATE the issued ones, I was voluntold to wear them on my biq). I see nothing wrong with.
I mean I don't wear issued boots, but I have a chit for them though (so far only pair of boots that have helped with stress fractures in my feet, and the horribly bad shin splints I get, not for the lcf).
I'm one of them kit whores as well, but really most things that are issued are pretty good. most of the fancy kit that's coming in (like the small pack, that thing is awesome, definetely putting the camleback motherlode to pasture). but really most of the kit like the ruck, I use the same ruck set up, I just use the 64 pattern frame, it's great now.
but basically everything I listed (except for sleeping bag) I wear and it's not of issued, but most of the times, they don't really care about that stuff that often.
to me if I was ever a snr nco, I'd let my troops get away with what I listed out in the field for sure, and maybe in garrison depending on what's going on. but other then that, you'd gotta be dreaming.
Greg


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## KevinB (13 Nov 2004)

Britney Spears,

I'd ignore Military photo's for int - a buddy of mine (he's a Lt Col in Bragg) confirmed that they play the issue game during the Q course (well not the instructors obviously) but that many phases of the Pineland excusion they are in civies etc to facilitate the guerrilla nature.

Secondly if one is in the Mooolitia and is only doing 3 section attacks fine - but if one is a regular force light infanteer going to afghan I put it to you that the majority of our kit does SUCK - and as such members are forced to buy aftermarket gear - why they feel the kit we issue is so inferior that their lives are in jeopardy.

It really bugs me when people who are not in our line of work try to second guess the kit needs and wants. 

Cheers
Kevin


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