# Field gun outside of North Vancouver City Hall circa 1930?



## Colin Parkinson (10 Aug 2007)

Can anyone ID this field piece? The picture was taken outside of North Vancouver city Hall back in the 1930? Just noticed this picture a short time ago and will try to track down where this gun went.








(Edit to active link.)


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## Danjanou (10 Aug 2007)

Not the best picture, but A qucik look through Google Images would suggest it may be the British 18 pdr. The CEF used them in WW1 and after the war, which may fit with the time period of the picture.


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## Michael OLeary (10 Aug 2007)

I don't think it's an 18-pdr, it doesn't seem to have a recoil cylinder over the barrel.

Image No.: CN001846    CSTMC/CN Collection

18-pounder field gun






I think it's more likely a German gun received by the town as a war trophy.


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## 1feral1 (10 Aug 2007)

There was and still is heaps of field guns which are German, all war prizes brought back as 'ballast' after the great war.

Many German guns, used seats on the carriage.

Maybe this is German???

The pic when I enlarged it, loses its defination.


Cheers, 

Wes


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## Old Sweat (10 Aug 2007)

Wes,

Good point about the seats on the carriage. That was one of the first things I noticed. It appears to be about 3-in or 75mm, fitted with a pole trail with a wide hinged spade at the end. It probably was originally horse drawn because of the large, thin wheels. The shield is odd looking and in fact lacking in basic protection for the gun detachment; I suspect it may be hinged at the top.

All that is weasel wording for I haven't got a clue, other than I suspect it was a trophy of war. That means it was probably German or Austrian-Hungarian.


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## Danjanou (11 Aug 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I don't think it's an 18-pdr, it doesn't seem to have a recoil cylinder over the barrel.



You may be right there is a bit of a shadow over the barrel which I thought might be recoil cylinder :-[


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## old medic (11 Aug 2007)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Can anyone ID this field piece? The picture was taken outside of North Vancouver city Hall back in the 1930? Just noticed this picture a short time ago and will try to track down where this gun went.



A lot of the WW1 German war prizes were melted down for scrap metal in WW2. This was done by
the federal government who had controlled the distribution of war prizes to towns after 1919.


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## 3rd Herd (11 Aug 2007)

ColinP,
did you look into the Woodward family. 
"William Culham Woodward Retailer, lieutenant-governor b. April 24, 1885, Gore Bay, Manitoulin Island, Ont.; d. Feb. 24, 1957, Hawaii. Came to Vancouver with father Charles Woodward. At 16, worked as a $15/month Royal Bank clerk. In 1908, joined Woodward's as bookkeeper. Served with First Canadian Heavy Artillery, then with Occupation forces (1916-18). Honorable colonel of 15th Field Regiment (RCA), 1932. During WWII, served without pay as executive assistant to munitions and supply minister C.D. Howe. Lieutenant-governor (Sept. 5, 1941-46). Ran Woodward Stores with brother Percival Archibald Woodward to 1956 when his son Chunky Woodward became president. That same year, named colonel at large of the militia, a rank created for him by defense minister Ralph Campney."http://www.vancouverhistory.ca/whoswho_W.htm


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## Blackadder1916 (11 Aug 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I don't think it's an 18-pdr, it doesn't seem to have a recoil cylinder over the barrel.



It could be an 18-pdr Mark IV.  The Mark IV's recoil cylinder was under the barrel.  
http://www.1914-1918.net/arms_tactics/art_weapons.htm






But it is unlikely that a (good condition) Mark IV (introduced in 1918) would be sitting outside a city hall in the 30's. 

If it was a war trophy, likely candidates could be the following German field guns
 7.7cm Feldkanone 96 n.A   
7.7 cm Feldkanone 16


_edited to add links_


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Aug 2007)

there are a couple of field pieces sitting in a park in Victoria near the old Work Point barracks, wonder if they are the same type?


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## TN2IC (11 Aug 2007)

We have a Royal Artillery Park here in Halifax. I could take a look there for you. 



Regards,
TN2IC


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## 3rd Herd (11 Aug 2007)

Colin P said:
			
		

> there are a couple of field pieces sitting in a park in Victoria near the old Work Point barracks, wonder if they are the same type?


There is also another one sitting to the left of the Wiskey Dock in Ucluelet. The brass plate attached explains the significance of the piece. However I think as I said above there is a connection between the field artillery and the Woodward family, especially the role of the occupying forces and prizes of war. The legion in Cranbrook also has a war prize artillery piece outside it's front door.

edit to add:
"First World War German Artillery Gun
Corner of Broadway and Court Streets, Grand Falls
On display is German 77 mm field artillery gun, number 8283. It was captured during the Battle of Arras by the 25th Battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Force on 27 August 1918 at the Moon Quarry, near Cherisy. Along with New Brunswick’s 26th Battalion, the 25th Battalion, a Nova Scotian unit, was part of the Fifth Infantry Brigade, Second Division. On the 27 August 1918, the Fifth Brigade attacked against strong German resistance, but succeeded in capturing the Town of Cherisy and stormed across the River Sensee.http://www.unb.ca/nbmhp/counties/Sunbury.html


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Aug 2007)

Thanks 3rd herd, I was not aware of that one. There is a 12pdr naval gun outside of the Sea Cadet building in N. Van, there used to be a 75 or 90mm AA gun outside of the air Cadet building beside it, the guy who bought it, killed himself taking a a jack or recoil mech apart and not realizing it was under considerable spring pressure. Not sure where it went. There is a 17pdr outside a legion in Langley and Cannonade at the kitkla village near Prince Rupert.


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## BillN (13 Aug 2007)

Colin, the AA Gun that used to be outside of the 103 Air Cadet Squadron building in North Van, was originally from a RCL Branch in Richmond.  The gun was donated to the Squadron by the RCL Branch as their building, where the gun was originally located, was slated for demolition due to road or bridge building back in the early '70's.  I can't remember the Branch number, but it was located right where the airport entrance road begins today.

My father was an officer with 103 Squadron at the time, and towed the gun from Richmond to N. Van with his Mack dump truck after work one day.  One can only imagine that sight coming over the Second Narrows Bridge  :warstory:

Perhaps the RCL Provincial Office in Vancouver could shed more light on that guns origin for you.

Cheers,
BillN.


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## hugh19 (14 Aug 2007)

Colin the 2 field pieces in Esquimalt, are german 77mm guns from WW1.


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Aug 2007)

Thank you, I remember looking at them back in the 80's and thinking they were German. But I don't trust my memory. this gun reminded me of them.


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## Spr.Earl (30 Nov 2007)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Thank you, I remember looking at them back in the 80's and thinking they were German. But I don't trust my memory. this gun reminded me of them.



Hey  we all get old timers.
But thanks for the photo.
Now the old City Hall and Gaol is the Presentation House now which contains a art gallery and our local live theater.
When the building was the city hall it all so contained the gaol.

I used to stand under cover under the balconey at the back on 3rd St waiting for the school bus when the building was still City Hall.
circa 67/68

Thank's Colin.

Nick


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## Bill Smy (1 Dec 2007)

North Vancouver received 2 guns and 4 Machine Guns as its share of war trophies from World War One.

After the First World War the government of Canada established a “Commission on War Records and Trophies” with B. E. Walker as Chairman and A. D, Doughty and E. A. Cruickshank as Members. One mandate of the Commission was to recommend “the proper policy to be pursued for the distribution of such trophies and it submitted its report on 18 May 1920.

The Commissioners noted that

•	Only trophies which were of a durable nature should be distributed to municipalities, public institutions, and military units;
•	Before any distribution, special provision should be made for a National War Museum and for Provincial War Museums; and that
•	War trophies were the exclusive property of the Crown, and the receiving institution was responsible for keeping them in good repair and had no authority to dispose of them.

At the time of the report there were 516 captured German guns and howitzers available for distribution, 304 trench mortars, 2500 heavy and light machine guns and 3000 rifles. From these totals it was proposed that rare specimens such as two 37 mm and 75mm mountain guns, 77mm and 80mm anti-aircraft guns, three 88mm field guns, a 90 mm filed gun, a 99mm howitzer, a 120mm gun, a 126mm gun, four 150mm naval guns, a 150mm Russian howitzer and four specimens of the other calibers, four specimens of each caliber of trench mortars, 100 machine guns and 1,000 rifles be reserved for National and Provincial War Museums.

It was recommended that guns of each caliber available, four trench mortars, twelve machine guns and 100 rifles should be allocated to each Provincial capital city,. In addition eleven guns awarded by competition in raising the Victory Loan of 1919 were to be distributed to each province with Ontario receiving two.

It was then proposed that the remaining trophies available were to be distributed by province based on wartime enlistments in the CEF, and the Department of Militia and Defence provided the following breakdown:

NUMBER OF ENLISTMENTS IN EACH PROVINCE

PROVINCE	       TOTAL	         PER CENT

Ontario 	         245,677     	41.6	nearly
Quebec	          82,793      	14.0
Manitoba	          66,319	          12.2
British Columbia         61,438      	10.4
Alberta	                     45,145      	7.6
Saskatchewan	           37,666	           6.4	nearly
Nova Scotia and PEI	33,342  	5.6
New Brunswick 	25,864  	4.4	nearly
Yukon	                       2,327     	 .4	nearly

The provincial share according to enlistment was then broken down to municipalities , organizations and institutions, and military units. For example, in Alberta, the City of Calgary received 6 guns, 2 trench mortars and 10 machine guns.

The Public Archives of Canada was assigned the responsibility of distributing the war trophies, and it kept detailed records of its work, for example: the City of St Catharines received a 77 mm gun captured by the 4th Battalion on 27 September 1918, on the Arras-Cambrai Road, south-east of Marquion. The records also record the weapons destroyed in Europe.

The records of the commission are held by the Libarary and Archives Canada, RG 24-C-1-a


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## geo (1 Dec 2007)

Heh... while some cities got field guns.....
The town of Knowlton QC got it's hands on a Fokker DVII biplane.... which it still has 8)

http://www.townshipsheritage.com/Eng/Articles/Outings/knowlton.biplane.html


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## Vets Dottir (10 Jul 2009)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> The legion in Cranbrook also has a war prize artillery piece outside it's front door.



I have, or had, photos of the Cranbrook one, which I may still have. I have to check through my computer and/or emails for them if I haven't deleted them. Cranbrook Legion moved across the street and moved the gun as well and I can't clearly remember where it is now although I think they have it in the place they moved to. Do you happen to know the origins and history of this particular "captured German cannon"? The story behind how it came to live in Cranbrook???? Would love to know!

Below is an communication I had long ago with a guy from that Legion and I still don't have this story solved ... I'd love to be able to find out and inform these people so they have that history too:

Hi Carmen. I spoke with a few Veterans who have told me in fact the Cannon in front of our Legion is a World War One captured German Cannon. So far, nobody seems to know when or how we obtained it. I took the following numbers from the breach mechanism this morning in hopes you can find out more with your resources. I tried the "net" but came up empty. Here is what I took off the Cannon.

Nr 19241 M.457 U

GS 7008 RV

1917

UW 101

I'll keep on asking questions as I encounter more Veterans in hopes of getting some concrete answers to pass on to you. Pls. keep me updated on your findings as well.
..............................

Thanks if any of you can help solve this mystery


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## 3rd Herd (13 Nov 2009)

Vets,

  Just saw your reply. 

try looking in either the Cranbrook papers from that era if there was one for Cranbrook. I seem to remember that it was a "Columbia Valley" paper. If not in Cranbrook, you could try the Kimberley Historical Society to see what papers they have from back then. Also the Fernie Historical Society. If no luck there and you have the paper name the chase is still on as all newspapers in BC from I think the 1870s are stored (copies) in the Provinical legislative archivies or maybe by now in the RBCM archivies.  If so it should  not be to hard to have someone in Victoria chase this down in an hour if you can find the name of papers back then.

A  quick BC archivies search found:

British Columbia Archives
Visual Records Catalogue
Email: access@www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca

CALL NUMBER:          NA-39744
--------------------------------------------
Catalogue Number:     HP038975
Other Cat. Number:    

Subject:              CLUBS
Subject:              MILITARY GROUPS AND MILITARY LIFE
Subject:              
Geographic Region:    EAST KOOTENAY

Title:                The Canadian Legion; Cranbrook.

Photographer/Artist:  UNDETERMINED
Date:                 [192-]

Accession Number:     193501-001

A second option could be to try the BC Provinical Police Files. As if it was a "major event" the constables would have written down in their notes "Attended Cranbrook Royal Legion................................... These notes are stored in the provinical archivies.

again a quick search of BC archiveis
GR-0445
British Columbia
Provincial Police Force
Provincial Police Force daily reports
Originals    1913-1921    8.4 m

DAILY REPORTS

Box   Title                                         Date


59    Fernie - Kimberley                      1920

Box    File       Station                     Year


51     6          Cranbrook                   1919
58     17         Cranbrook                   1920


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## Vets Dottir (13 Nov 2009)

Wow, thanks so much for all that 3rd Herd!!! I'll check out those places soon as I can and will keep you all posted in here. It is interesting and I'd still like to know the story behind this gun here, and will be able to inform the Legion what I learn too, so thanks.

I dropped into the Legion after the Remembrance Ceremonies, they had an open to the public special invite after the ceremonies  I didn't remember about the gun when I was there to start asking people about it while I was there though ... too bad  I did meet some awesome Veterans though and heard some war stories (wow!) and also chatted up two soldiers from Eureka here to represent the States (ISAF???) which was nice. It was really good to share the day with everyone else focussed on  "Remembering" Very good turnout!

Thanks again


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