# Question about your degree and your place in Forces



## Inque (25 Aug 2013)

Hi all,

I'm a recent graduate from Bachelor of Science (BSc.) and I have taken about 1-2 years of engineering before transferring to Bachelor of Science. My degree is in Design and I have learned AutoCad, 3D printing, Design, Usability, Ergonomics, what have you... So, my questions are as follows as I have done 2-3hour search on the website and couldn't find the specific answers to my questions:

1. With the degree I have, which positions I'm eligible to apply first of all? For instance, If I would like to be a medical doctor in army, I have a feeling that BSc degree may be help but what FORCES wants is probably a medical student, right? So, is there any list in their website that says if you have BSc., you are forsure eligible for this and this in army and this and that in navy and etc... http://www.kingsown.ca/Old%20Site/ROTP%20Quest%20Part%201_en.pdf 3rd page it shows something but this is not exactly what I'm looking for. If I want to be CELE (Communications and Electronics Engineering (Air) Officer ), is my degree enough and all I need is 19 weeks in Ontario and then I'm CELE?

2. With the degree I have, where will I start? 
a. Recruitment agent told me that I will "probably" start as 2nd Lieutenant... Probably? Well, I want to know before I commit all that paperwork, basic training and etc. Is that even possible?
b. When I check PayScale, what will be my PayScale A,B,C,D,E? I check what all those letters mean at the end of that link and do my research to find what those abbreviations mean but didn't have any clue about where I belong to be honest...http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page?

3. When I take my Basic Training 14 weeks in Quebec, what will be my monthly salary? 

4. When I take my Professional Training - 19 weeks in Ontario, what will be my salary? 
a. Also, after this training is complete now I'm officially an Engineer?

I think this would be good to start for now. Again, I have searched the forum many times to find this specific info and sadly I couldn't locate them. If you do know where these answers would be and send me the links, I'm happy to continue my research.

Thank you all!


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## Teager (25 Aug 2013)

This thread may answer some questions about medical officer.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/109248.0.html


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## Inque (25 Aug 2013)

This thread only has info about someone being a medical officer. Thanks for trying though.
My question is specific about with the degree I have what are my options at first, then the other questions I have asked.


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## George Wallace (25 Aug 2013)

Inque said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm a recent graduate from Bachelor of Science (BSc.) and I have taken about 1-2 years of engineering before transferring to Bachelor of Science. My degree is in Design and I have learned AutoCad, 3D printing, Design, Usability, Ergonomics, what have you... So, my questions are as follows as I have done 2-3hour search on the website and couldn't find the specific answers to my questions:
> 
> 1. With the degree I have, which positions I'm eligible to apply first of all?



Search?  I don't think you did.  Needless to say, I don't think your Degree actually amounts to much in the way of joining the CAF.  If you did SEARCH, you would have found that many officer entry plans do accept "ANY" Degree.




			
				Inque said:
			
		

> 2. With the degree I have, where will I start?
> a. Recruitment agent told me that I will "probably" start as 2nd Lieutenant... Probably? Well, I want to know before I commit all that paperwork, basic training and etc. Is that even possible?
> b. When I check PayScale, what will be my PayScale A,B,C,D,E? I check what all those letters mean at the end of that link and do my research to find what those abbreviations mean but didn't have any clue about where I belong to be honest



2 a.  You will likely come in under the DEO plan of entry as a 2Lt.  
2 b.  Again with a SEARCH of Pay Scales, you would have found many a discussion on what a DEO entry plan candidate will make.  Have a look.



			
				Inque said:
			
		

> 3. When I take my Basic Training 14 weeks in Quebec, what will be my monthly salary?



See 2 b. above.



			
				Inque said:
			
		

> 4. When I take my Professional Training - 19 weeks in Ontario, what will be my salary?



Again, see 2 b. above.



			
				Inque said:
			
		

> a. Also, after this training is complete now I'm officially an Engineer?



HUH?  Where did Engineer come from?  You had hypothetical questions on Medical Officer and CELE Officer.


Why don't you do some more reading here and then go to a Recruiter and ask them what the current demands are, current policy on hiring applicants as DEO (name your desired Occupation), and an explanation of what your prospective courses will look like.


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## Teager (25 Aug 2013)

I gave info to one of your "ifs". As George stated you can have almost any degree for different trades. IMO you seem like you are more interested in how much $ your going to make than the career.

George I'm taking a stab but I think he's referring to CELE as an Engineer since CELE has the word "Engineering" in it.


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## cupper (26 Aug 2013)

Inque said:
			
		

> 4. When I take my Professional Training - 19 weeks in Ontario ... after this training is complete now I'm officially an Engineer?



To clarify, I assume that you are asking if you will be a qualified CELE Officer, and not a Professional Engineer.

If you are asking with regards to a P.Eng. the short answer is no.

You would have to have a degree in Engineering or Applied Sciences form an accredited university. Then you will need to register with your provincial Engineering Association, and spend 4 years as an Engineer in Training (EIT) gaining acceptable engineering experience. You will also have to pass the Professional Practice Exam. Then you will be licensed as a Professional Engineer in that province.


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## Inque (27 Aug 2013)

@George Wallace: I DID search and the search results are endless. Each thread has at least 10 pages inside with comments as small as "thanks" and jokes by people saying like "don't get married" and what not. Someone even said to these individuals "stop spamming with lame jokes" -- I somewhat agree with that comment as in this case maybe I could have found what I was looking for. So, briefly, the website is massive and these certain things should be thread for easier access with people's comments have been REMOVED I would suggest. That being said, thanks for the help on other points. PS: Extra thanks for your organized answer - breaking down my questions and replying underneath them, love it! Replying most of them as see 2b, thumbs down though.

For 2b, I swear I can't find the info anywhere, here is what recruiter told me:
"I believe you and I talked about this but what it means is that if you were a 2nd Lt, and there were 4 different letters attached to the pay scale of 2nd Lt, that means that there are 4 different pay levels for a this rank with A being the lowest and D being the highest pay level for a 2nd Lt. Generally you will progress a pay level every year....Generally."

A-D level:
A: 4489
B: 3568
C: 3839
D: 4900
E: 4959

But if you check A is one of the highest in the Pay Scale and the PS (Payscale) goes to E not D and now he made me even more confused... I do need to know how much you will get paid while you are studying as I will support a family and pay mortgage and what not... So, it really is important. So, if you do know where the answers to those questions rather than saying search "Pay scales" if you send me the link, I'll be happy to read it. As for "where the engineer come from?" CELE -- Communications and Electronics Engineering (Air) Officer. The question is when you apply and all, once you get an offer letter, are these things in the offer letter? I mean where are all these questions in the World Wide Web or in the books?

@Teager: I DO at the moment as I said above - while I am studying, I will support a family and pay mortgage and what not. So, it's crucial that those are covered WHILE I'm studying 12 months in total (Basic+professional). Yup! You got CELE right! 

@Cupper: You are great! Thank you! So, in the website where the section says "RELATED CIVILIAN OCCUPATIONS", I thought I could do those job under Engineer title once I become a CELE officer. So, then that's not possible unless I have graduated from Applied Science degree and then become CELE, is that right?

Thanks y'all!


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## Drag (27 Aug 2013)

You would start as a DEO (Row C in the pay scale).  Which level depends on your previous education and experience.  I know a number of people that started at pay increments 2, 3, or 4 based on their civilians education and experience.  Only the recruiting center can give you more accurate info on that.

As a CELE officer (I have been one for about 7 years now) your experience will vary greatly.  While some CELEs do perform traditional engineering tasks, most do not.  If you are looking to do hard engineering work to improve your chances at obtaining civilian employment, a military career may not be for you.  While I know people that have done hard engineering/ technical work and have been able to convert that into civilian careers, they are in the very small minority.  The military will employ you where you are needed and "future career skills" will be very low on the priority list of issues considered where to post you.


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## George Wallace (27 Aug 2013)

Inque said:
			
		

> @George Wallace: I DID search and the search results are endless. Each thread has at least 10 pages inside with comments as small as "thanks" and jokes by people saying like "don't get married" and what not. Someone even said to these individuals "stop spamming with lame jokes" -- I somewhat agree with that comment as in this case maybe I could have found what I was looking for. So, briefly, the website is massive and these certain things should be thread for easier access with people's comments have been REMOVED I would suggest. That being said, thanks for the help on other points. PS: Extra thanks for your organized answer - breaking down my questions and replying underneath them, love it! Replying most of them as see 2b, thumbs down though.



So?  Instead of reading through the existing threads, that have answered your questions, you suggest we weed them out of anything that does not relate to you specifically and cater to only you?  Those threads only exist because of people like you who ask the same questions that someone else has asked and want to be fed with a silver spoon because somehow they felt special.  Yes, there are irrelevant comments in them, due to this fact of constantly answering the same questions ad nauseum, and they may detract from the discussion, but you are just as guilty by once again starting a topic with those same redundant questions.  



			
				Inque said:
			
		

> For 2b, I swear I can't find the info anywhere, here is what recruiter told me:
> "I believe you and I talked about this but what it means is that if you were a 2nd Lt, and there were 4 different letters attached to the pay scale of 2nd Lt, that means that there are 4 different pay levels for a this rank with A being the lowest and D being the highest pay level for a 2nd Lt. Generally you will progress a pay level every year....Generally."
> 
> A-D level:
> ...




Sorry, but that is all we can do.  You are contemplating joining and have not completed the Recruiting process, so no one here can give you an "EXACT" pay amount.  You will have to wait until your process has been completed and the CAF gives you an "offer".  Then you will know what level of pay you will be earning.  Until such time as that occurs, it is anyone's guess what your pay will be.  Until such time, read all the info given to you (ref 2 b.) and you will get a "general idea" of what to expect.

On one other note; this is NOT an official Canadian Armed Forces site, as stated at the bottom of the page, so what you hear here and what you hear at a CFRC may not be the same.  The CFRC will have the latest policies and information, which can change on very short notice.  Here, we are only an internet site owned and operated by an interested party.


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## d_edwards (27 Aug 2013)

"I believe you and I talked about this but what it means is that if you were a 2nd Lt, and there were 4 different letters attached to the pay scale of 2nd Lt, that means that there are 4 different pay levels for a this rank with A being the lowest and D being the highest pay level for a 2nd Lt. Generally you will progress a pay level every year....Generally."

A-D level:
A: 4489
B: 3568
C: 3839
D: 4900
E: 4959

But if you check A is one of the highest in the Pay Scale and the PS (Payscale) goes to E not D and now he made me even more confused
[/quote]

On the forces.ca website under the pay scales link it clearly identifies what the pay group letters mean.  As you hold a degree you will most likely be entered under Direct Entry Officer or DEO. That would be pay group C according to the schedule.   Cross reference that with your incentive level to see what you can expect to be paid.   
A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212

This was in plain view a short scroll down the page. I will refrain from an unkind rant, but people on these boards have been very forthcoming sharing what they know. All your questions have been answered ad nauseum before. If you do not know what the acronyms mean there is even a thread here with a list of them, and their meanings.  Post poorly searched questions at your peril.


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