# Afghanistan:  Lessons Learned (merged)



## boondocksaint

the most our pl was ever able to dismount with for any tic, was 17 pers, including pl and pl wo, crew served weapons in a fast moving tic dont work, did not work

m203's were invaluable, as were c-9's, mass use of grenades was adopted as our room clearing technique

things moved to fast for firebases and crewed weapons


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## KevinB

bds -- did you guys get Concussion (i.e. Offensive Blast) Grenades?  They tend to work better than frag for Afghan housing/compounds - and still kill dead.

  *Dont confuse DD's with Conc Grenades...


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## Jay4th

We never got any concussion grenades, just lots of the new C13 version of the M67 frag.


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## boondocksaint

like jay said, c-13, only one dud out of roughly 100 thrown by our pl in contact, depending on the size of the room, and furnishings, they just messed up/irritated timmy a bit, so we rarely threw just one, and quite often we would get a lav3 up to push the wall in so we didnt have to go in the door, didnt happen everytime, but a fair bit 'lav mouseholing' was done especially between major compounds

keep in mind this is what my platoon did, every pl did something a bit different, and had varied results, all of which worked in its own way

the days of full sections in the fight is over, vehicles need crews, leave plans, and of course the wounded add up, 

we fought with 4 man stacks per section for most of our tics ( yes its troops in contact, the yanks think 'firefight is SOoo 1990's ) and it worked out ok

tic's in these environments are all about flanking the other guy, and timmy loves to flank, he is aggresive and fast and will search out your flank unless you do it to him first, 

the average tic had a few guys holding good ground, while everyone else went hard to the flanks to get around timmy, and if the lav's were up close (and they usually were ) we would suppress timmy until the lav saw our splash ( m203 was crucial here ) and then would pour on the 25 till the enemy would squirt (run) or die in place, generally 50-50 of each, comms were almost all hand signals or yelling, the pl would be on the radio calling in cas or arty, thankfully my pl was great at this and it was big help, the pl in the modern fight does very little directing, basically keeps an overall picture of what his sections are doing/going and coordinates with higher, at the section level my only concerns were not to overextend or get cutoff, and that usually isnt a problem because most of the time you set the pace and pick your ground slowly

winning the firefight- needs big rethinking--there were fights were it would literally take an hour to win the firefight, then something would or wouldnt happen and timmy was back in high gear and the firefight would need re-winning again, its all relevant to any situation, you dont move or make anyone move unless you are absolutely pasting timmy, or atleast ideally anyway, sometimes it cant be helped and thats how it goes 

the tic is over when timmy is all dead or run away, or when you have to back out so the big stuff can be dropped on him, then you go back in to make sure he's all dead or run away

almost forgot, the lav3 needs a tank-type phone, we used spare headsets sometimes strapped out the back hatch, but we used the lav so much like a tank in that terrain that a phone would be nice


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## boondocksaint

shoulda mentioned earlier, THE MEDIC, remember the old days when platoon medics basically stuck with your pl for a chunk of time? so you could get to know them, trust them train them etc

we were very lucky to keep the same medic for 7 months, and even luckier he was a fantastic medic, and fought as hard as any of us, he isnt 'like' one of us he is one of us, and was crucial several times

i know the military is short staffed, but having the same medics over long periods of time to develop a working relationship is pretty key,

and overall our medical training with quicklot, tourniquets and israeli bandages was great, it saved lives


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## boondocksaint

let me just say first- our training was good enough- our gear was good enough- our tactics were good enough- as issued/taught---------BUT------(disclaimer before the rant)

easily the 25mm got the most kills, the typical gunner in our pl had over 20, some close to 40-confirmed kills, great optics coupled with a great weapon made it ideal in that fighting environment
-single shot versus 3 rd bursts - length of tic's demanded that 25mm gunners be careful with the ammo usage, of course tempo of the fight dictated, and 10-12 rd bursts were used for suppresion more then once

-cas in the form of helo's was outstanding- saved us in sangin-
-fast air.................not a fan-not accurate and generally didnt create alot of damage.....in the right spots
-arty- loved it, timely, accurate and pretty effective- air burst over a compound is a beatiful thing- had several missions that were.....nice and close, and they needed to be

at my level (im an mcpl, led my guys on the ground ) the things i'd change are:

1- overall section deployment in fibua, the lav3 needs to be utilized like a tank in lieu of tanks, the section needs rethinking in organization- 4 man fireteams-we dismounted with 2 x m203's-1xc-9 and a rifleman who acted as a grenadier (6-8 nades) with m72's 
-the new  battlefield is not conducive with a single pair of men covering one another taking bounds-timmy needs to be hit with a monstrous volume of fire just to win the fight let alone take bounds- 4 man assault teams did the trick
-clear with fire-then some more fire- and after coffee clear it again-THEN go in the room, timmy is tough and resilient ( and high on opium ) and takes a beating to kill, no use tossing a nade then running in hoping to get to your corner- nades are cheap- we aint
-its a section commanders fight-let him fight it ( our p-l did)

2-the tac vest-for the love of god the tac vest.....seriously
-i got in a bit of poo early in the tour for saying something about our tac vest only holding 4 mags etc etc
well it only holds 4 mags! and that is NOT enough to fight with, some tic's i only fired 5 mags in 5 hours, in others i fired 10 mags in 5  minutes-i needed to get them quickly- thats why my pl all wore our own various rigs
*it cannot effectively hold enough ammo for a rifleman or a c-9 gunner OR an m-203 gunner( my c-9 gunners both used the old style webbing to hold 4 boxes)
*it doesnt hold enough water if you do somehow cram it full of gear that you need
***there are modular versions out there or quasi modular/fixed rigs that work much better for a great price- or adapt the brit idea of allowing an option between several approved rigs and adapting to the individual soldier-ive used the hockey player analogy before, no 2 guys dress exactly alike but they are all in the same uniform-it has to work for the individual, his life depends on it

3-boots/socks- we think the same genius's that made the wet weather boot/tragedy made the new desert boot, hence why most of us bought SWATS, they were lighter and my 2 pair lasted the whole tour, one of my guys wore only the issue things, they all fell apart, inside and out
-as well, to those that think the issue hockey puck boot is wonderful, try on a pair of swats or strykers, join us in the new century of footwear that works and doesnt cripple you
*socks, 'smart socks and 'ingenius socks worked really well, they do the '2 in 1' thing....with one sock, neat huh?

i have more, but you asked for 3- which i kinda expanded on anyway cuz i rant about kit


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## boondocksaint

hopefully jay, and some of the other guys chime in as well, everyone has their own perspective and the more input the better- 

4- we humped alot of mountains- we all used either MEC style climbing bags ( 60-70L) or BlackHawk bags or CamelBak bags, which are about 50L of storage and is all you need for a few days out- when wearing armor the normal ruck/64 pattern just doesnt get comfortable- the issue day bag has that slippery material on the straps that moves it with every step, uggh

-you only need to hump water, spare ammo, power bars and whatever extra kit you are assigned-generally para flares/trip and the other usual stuff-water of course being key- on average for a 2 day hump we would take 8-9L each with a hydration day before hand if available- that is all the weight a human can carry and not be digging into his water too much-if someone tells you your going out for X number of days with no resupply, sort them out- either you get resupplied or you plan for short humps- it hit 65 degrees more then a few times

more to follow


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## MJP

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> hopefully jay, and some of the other guys chime in as well, everyone has their own perspective and the more input the better-
> 
> 4- we humped alot of mountains- we all used either MEC style climbing bags ( 60-70L) or BlackHawk bags or CamelBak bags, which are about 50L of storage and is all you need for a few days out- when wearing armor the normal ruck/64 pattern just doesnt get comfortable- the issue day bag has that slippery material on the straps that moves it with every step, uggh



I second the uselessness of the issued day bag for patrolling over there.  On top of sliding straps I found it just didn't fit well over the flak vest and body armour.  Not to mention that the bag itself is overly heavy compared to similar bags because of all the extra padding sewn into the back.  Unlike BDS, I didn't mind my 64 pattern over the body armour, but I prefered my Blackhawk bag, besides the bigger the bag you have the more temtation you'll have to fill it with stuff that you don't need rather than the essentials.


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## silentbutdeadly

The snipers over there also had the new rucksac over there and a few them felt they had the same problems as the day pack, but in a 85L size. Imagine know stuffing that full of useless crap.


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## boondocksaint

I sent this to Quag a while back, and it's part of some AAR's im putting together, none of it is OPSEC, I've left my guys names out, not that they'd care, but you cant be too carefull


*sangin is a large town- several thousand ppl living there, the bulk of which vacated prior to the fight

-got orders to go into sangin and perform a BDA on a building that had been JDAM'd earlier that day
-unable to bring LAV's all the way in, dismounted apprx 17 pers from the PL to go in on foot, LAV's to provide overwatch where they could, also had Helo gunships in the air
1- on point- C-8 with M203-11 mags-12 M203 rds-2 grenades
2-C-9 next 4 drums and 2 grenades
3-C-8/M203 with 10 mags, 4 grenades-12 M203 rds
4-C7A2 with 10 mags 8 grenades and an M72

-vehicles parked on a road in town, we moved out, about 200m into the move we had to cross a wide ditch with a 4 ft wall on the far side, had crossed with myself, 1 and 2 when i looked to my left and saw 8 taliban moving towards our vehicles, saw each other at the same time- yelled a warning to our PL so they could get out of the killzone

-the warning I should add was my startled 'HEY YOU' which I yelled in suprise at the dude with the RPG- he was as shocked as I was....not much of an immediate reaction uggh

-started firing at the same time they did- we had no cover so we just dropped and lit into them, they did the same to us- dumped 3 mags in the first 20 seconds and 3 m203 also, C-9 was already putting on his 2nd drum and M203#2 was givener

-if you've seen the video, look at about the 16 second point and you'll see my fourth guy jump the wall to join us in the killzone and add his fire
- tried to break contact to the right and commenced firing and moving that way when we were again hit, 2 more taliban on our right flank hit us from 150m ( the Eotech here was golden, it let me fire and move while maintaining a nice sight picture )
-no choice except to rush the original ambush-told the boys to throw grenades- fire the m72 then rush them ( in the video you here one of the other guys in the pl ask 'wtf was that? camera guy replies rpg, it was our m-72 streaking into timmie)

-so we did, by now the remainder of our PL had moved back up to higher ground and was adding their fire- the C-6 in the video up high was keeping the 2 guys on our flank pinned while we moved up into the enemy-also 2 of our guys were in the middle high ground moving forward on our left separated by the wall/ditch

-was clearing the ditch while moving up and got the drop on a taliban hiding in the ditch with an ak-47 trying to get a shot at our 2 guys in the middle ground and the camera dude 

-disposed of him ( 8 rds) then kept moving, we cleared all of them out
-started to consolidate ( slap a fresh mag on) and get a feel for what was going on- taking fire from all sides except up on top where our PL had lost contact with us at this point- 

-we were cut off and needed to get out quick- the LAV's started to rock out and were pounding enemy everywhere, they were also under heavy assault- the Helo's were launching Hellfires 100m away from us at enemy trying to close the circle on us

-finally fought clear and broke contact back to the PL ( the sunset scene with us moving and shooting) and mounted up and got da fook outta dodge

-no casualties for us, several vehicles hit by small arms and rpg splatter- as were C-9 and I, the initial rpg went off in between us
-me and my dudes got 8-the LAV's got a further 17 and odds and sodds in the PL got about 6-9 more
-Helo's got a bunch and told us there were about 50-75 more taliban coming at us-hence the 'relocation'

-high fives and hugs, later that night we were in a FOB (under attack) and talking about the TIC, everyone thought we'd been wiped out in the first  volley, scott the camera guy said he was sure that the next time he popped the camera over the wall he'd see us dead, #4 said when he heard the rpg go off on the other side of the wall he thought we were dead also

-so i asked him why he jumped the wall if he thought we were dead,
-his stone cold reply was that he wasnt going to stay on the safe side of the wall knowing his best friends had died a few feet away so he figured he'd come join us
-didnt know what to say to that ( you can see it in his face at about the 16 second point)


anyhoodle thats what sangin was like-the video is about 2.5 min long- the real life version is about 65 min


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## ArmyRick

Got a link to the video?


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## Infanteer

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Got a link to the video?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaC-w2dIxZc


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## boondocksaint

I've almost got an AAR for a TIC in Garmser finished, but forgot to add the 'lessons learned' part of the sangin fight

1- grenades, use lots of grenades,  between the 4 of us we had 1 grenade left at the end of the fight
2- we generally carried 10 mags- rule of thumb for my guys was 6 mags to pick a fight, and 4 to get you out, meaning that was a transitional point for us if we had no immediate resup, at the end of that fight we had 2 ish mags each and last drum on C-9
3- M-72's arm effectively at 25m, which is the range that fight started at, then it got close- the M-72 is the 'Canadian RPG', timmie hates them, it penetrated a wall that was about a foot thick and had a great cone' effect on the far side
4-all of the drills worked-practice whatever drills your using alot, gunfighter program is awesome
5- ambush drill can/should be on call, once suppresion is achieved- no use rushing until then
6- soft soil is good- the RPG round went in deep before going off
7- yelling 'hey you' should not be used to initiate contact....


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## vonGarvin

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> 7- yelling 'hey you' should not be used to initiate contact....


If you are able to post an AAR after yelling "Hey You", it can't be all that bad (eg: it worked)   

Nice points given there, especially the 6 to get into a fight/4 to get out rule of thumb.  Also glad to hear the M72 works well (validates what I used to do on course as part of "winning the firefight": "Charlie team, M72!".  One DS told me that since it was an anti tank weapon, it wouldn't do jack against troops, but I digress, as that was just a course and not the real deal..)


Bravo Zulu!


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## boondocksaint

Garmser; large town, completely empty of locals due to the Taliban taking over the District center. The fighting in and around this town was about 3-4 days, off and on and the TIC in this part is around noon on day 3.

Again, none of this is OPSEC, but I'll leave out the names

My section had the OP on a road on one end of town, watching the footbridge across the canal ( 15-20m across, fast flowing and deep ).
My P-l with elements of 1 and 3 section and pl HQ with a section of ANA and 2 US ETT were escorting 19 over the footbridge to get a look at the area on the far side of the canal.
Immediatly upon crossing the footbridge-contact.

A rough layout of the ground: on the far side of the canal is a road slightly higher than the canal bank, and on the far side of the road is a wall anywhere from 3-6 ft high and running the entire length of road ( like everywhere ) the contact had come from across the field that this wall forms a box around, roughly 75-100m away ( every field is boxed by a wall )

Grabbed my 3 dudes and ran up to the footbridge, while our Lav started its move into a good overwatch position ( the Lav's couldnt cross the canal ) crossed the bridge with my guys and saw that 1 section was pushing hard left to take a compound key to guarding our flank, the P-L was on the radio calling in arty and had secured the immediate wall with 3 sect/hq/ANA so I pushed to the right side.

Volume of enemy fire at this point was pretty high, lots of PKM and RPG coming in, so we started to pick apart their bunkers with M-203 and C-9 as best we could. Noticed a shift in fire on our right side, timmie had started to flank us using a 'T' junction about 125m up the road, he had a short move, all of it covered by his wall on the long end of the 'T'.

Timmie then started to paste us pretty good down the road with PKM and RPG fire. With my 3 guys plus 2 others we started pushing up the road to the junction, now taking fire from the original bunkers on right angle to us, as well as the crew at the 'T' junction.

My Lav had already started supporting 1 section, so I had no immediate help for a few minutes. We were making slow progress, 3 guys up front firing and moving at the same time, running dry then being replaced by the 3 guys right behind them. Sort of an Aussie peel back in reverse. We'd closed to within about 50m of the TB and had them fairly suppressed, when 1 sections Lav arrived ( had to drive from the other side of town) he was about 75m away on an angle to us, and was of course on the other side of the canal. He promptly let timmie know he'd arrived.

Now at this point I fully expected timmie to squirt, the Lav didnt know exactly where he was, but was hitting all around the TB, he did not squirt. Now more TB from about 300m away start firing more RPG/RPK at the Lav, and the RPG are on timed fuze, they quickly bracket the Lav and the commander is forced to get low quite often. Further slowing us down, he now has those enemy to deal with, and the TB we'd already been up close with launch another RPG just missing his Lav.

Decided to make another bound to get within grenade range, using both M-203's together we nailed the ditch and foilage the TB team was hiding in then made a rush for another bit of cover. The Lav noticed where our M203's splashed and started sweeping the ditch with HEIT. I'll leave out the details but that finished that 3 man det.  We now had their flank, and it started to show in their fire. We now turned our attention on the enemy 300m away, and some still 75-100m away in their original positions. With our new vantage points on their flank we forced alot of TB to retreat or expose themselves in moving to new positions where we or the Lav took them out.

This is where the Lav starts to work, with a good crew commander using bino's and a good gunner scanning, it can pick apart defences quick, fast, and in a gd hurry. Timmie either stands and dies, or squirts and dies, occasionally he can slip away if the position is prepared well enough. 

It was about this time when the first arty came in, on the original bunkers, god bless the guns. Every TIC I was in that we used the guns I was impressed by their speed and accuracy. Direct hits on several bunkers.

A runner from the P-L showed up and said we'd be pulling back across the bridge and back into town. Still taking minor to moderate fire from the further positions so we peeled back along the wall. Firing as we went, the Lav adding to the fire, and 3 Pl arrived as well to cover us across. Got to the bridge, started to cross it when my M203 gunner stopped and started cursing ' my gd fkn ambidexterous mag catch' and starts looking for his mag that's fallen off. ( Infidel knows him ) I mention I have several spares....could we please just get moving.

Break contact- arty mops up- fall back to the town. Get eaten by sand flees and ordered to shave.


edited to mention this took place over about 90min.


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## vonGarvin

Boondock: that is awesome.  Excellent point about the "G-D Ambidextrous mag thingy".


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## Scoobie Newbie

Keep them coming.


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## HItorMiss

Well done Boondock, like Quagmire said keep them coming


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## GAP

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Well done Boondock, like Quagmire said keep them coming



ditto


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## boondocksaint

Thanks all, will do, again didnt post the lessons learned part. my copy paste clipboard is shyte.

1- Adhoc organization, I dont think there was a fight where we had the same organization twice, every chance contact is when you are not in a nice formation. So there wind up being folks not with their sections etc, if you wind up with floaters put them to work, worry about orbat later. During that particular fight I had 3 sections 2ic and our Lav Sgt. attached inadvertantly to my crew, everyone just does what they can where they are best suited. My Lav wound up supporting 1 sect in the early part of the fight, so I was Lav'less till 1 sect Lav came on the scene, he just slotted himself in where he was needed and carried on fighting.
2- Arty- all platoon leaders must be comfy with calling in indirect fire- it saves lives, it is a huge crippler psychologically for timmie, and quite a boost for the lads up front seeing an airburst shatter the roof off of a TB bunker. Our P-L was very good at 'interpreting' what the guns needed to know about so we could get the most out of them, god bless the guns.
3- Whatever drills are your SOP for a situation, practice them, alot, the reverse Aussie peelback was meant to be used in certain ambush situations, with only a road for manoever room it seem like a viable option, and it kept our momentum going.
4-It is a sect comd's fight, our P-L was great about letting us develop the fight for him, when he saw something to exploit THEN he moved us when/where/how he wanted- up until then we had alot of latitude to take ground and move as needed. you should never feel like you have to be told to attack something, your P-L should be there if needed to reel you back in if you are going to far. Which is the next point, that amount of latitude can be heady-and give you an 'i can do anything' feeling, dont over extend your limits. With a few fights under your belt you can sometimes get cocky, and think you can do more then you really should. In Hyderabad I was rounding a corner at the front of our stack figuring we'd cleared lots of compounds this one is no different---where there shoulda been 1 room and a hall, there were about 8 rooms and fire everywhere coming in. BACK DA FOOK UP, have a kit kat moment and evaluate things. It is a very liberating experience not having safety staff behind you monitoring every move. So you start thinking WAAAY outside the box, just keep it simple.

***these are some of the things my platoon noticed or did and not the gospel on how to fight a battle. There are many ways to fight, and what worked for us may not work for others, everyones idea's are different and that is not a bad thing at all, it's how we wound up learning and improving. Hopefully if even one idea out of this helps someone from learining it the hard way, I'll be happy.


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## Journeyman

> 2- Arty- *all platoon leaders must be comfy with calling in indirect fire*-


Absolutely! The unionized schoolhouse mentality that indirect fire is the FOOs job is BS. There's a reason why it's taught on Phase training.


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## big bad john

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Absolutely! The unionized schoolhouse mentality that indirect fire is the FOOs job is BS. There's a reason why it's taught on Phase training.



+1  All Infantry, in fact all Combat Arms Officers should be able to call in fire.


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## vonGarvin

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Absolutely! The unionized schoolhouse mentality that indirect fire is the FOOs job is BS. There's a reason why it's taught on Phase training.


+1!
Although, I must admit, this past year's DP 1.1 (phase III) might be better off than say last years (I taught the lesson) (patting self on back)

But seriously, what I mean is that the lesson plan was from the Field Artillery School and it got WAY DEEP in the muck.  I took out stuff about angle T, lanes, etc, and stuck with the basics.  Left/Right, Add/Drop, FFE, End of mission.
Also, since we had an inordinate number of adv qual pers on the course, when so-and-so called a mission in during the field portions, their missions were CLOSELY assessed AND mentored.  As an example one fella called in a mission, and it was bang on.  Good initial grid, good "corrections" (based on "the round landed 'x' mils to the left", and so forth).  Then, the target was successfully engaged (the lad was doing a platoon attack).  Then the lad said "end of mission".  "End of mission out" was the reply.  Then he gave that target to the "FOO" (eg: the DS) for part of his fire plan.  The arty "missed".  Why?  He failed to "Record as target".  We gave him the lesson that once you say "end of mission", that's it, that's all, those guns go elsewhere.  Hopefully he learned his lesson (and no, he didn't fail because of that).

Now, before the flames come in, the Field Artillery School helped us immensely with these lessons, so it was not a slag on them what I say about their lesson plan.  It's just that the lesson plan is for the FOO course and future FOOs.  Also, previous courses had infantry guys giving the lessons who knew two things about calling in fire: Jack and Poo, and Jack left town!


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## Old Sweat

As a very old gunner, let me add with tongue firmly embedded in wrinkled cheek, that there is nothing difficult about adjusting artillery fire. If there was, we officers wouldn't be doing it.


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## vonGarvin

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> As a very old gunner, let me add with tongue firmly embedded in wrinkled cheek, that there is nothing difficult about adjusting artillery fire. If there was, we officers wouldn't be doing it.


 :rofl:

Now THAT'S funny, although, the NCOs in my old Mortar Platoon only reluctantly "allowed" me to call in and adjust a mission at Rockwell


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## boondocksaint

I believe the most I ever heard him send was our grid- enemy grid and direction- what he wanted done to it and very minor adjustments ( new ammo is great ) several of us in our platoon are old mortar dogs and prior to our string of fights we helped him a bit, he also did some during phase he mentioned

the guns were great about interpreting what was being sent and what needed to be done on the ground.


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## Journeyman

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> *several of us in our platoon are old mortar dogs and ....we helped him a bit*


Yet another reason to bring back a full Combat Support Coy. As troops rotate through, they bring all kinds of skills to the Rifle Coys....and relatively "newby" Platoon Leaders.

(plus allowing more Cbt Sup load stations where the troops can escape _from_ new rifle platoon leaders    )


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## Colin Parkinson

As a couch potato sitting here on the wet coast reading these AAR’s, I am amazed and proud of you guys, glad all arms are working together and it will be interesting to read the AAR’s when the Leo’s are there to help! 

The concept of Canadians having pride in our troops is growing slowly but surely again.


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## vonGarvin

_2-the tac vest-for the love of god the tac vest.....seriously
-i got in a bit of poo early in the tour for saying something about our tac vest only holding 4 mags etc etc
well it only holds 4 mags! and that is NOT enough to fight with, some tic's i only fired 5 mags in 5 hours, in others i fired 10 mags in 5  minutes-i needed to get them quickly- thats why my pl all wore our own various rigs
*it cannot effectively hold enough ammo for a rifleman or a c-9 gunner OR an m-203 gunner( my c-9 gunners both used the old style webbing to hold 4 boxes)
*it doesnt hold enough water if you do somehow cram it full of gear that you need
***there are modular versions out there or quasi modular/fixed rigs that work much better for a great price- or adapt the brit idea of allowing an option between several approved rigs and adapting to the individual soldier-*ive used the hockey player analogy before, no 2 guys dress exactly alike but they are all in the same uniform-it has to work for the individual, his life depends on it*_

I love (and often use) sports analogies.  You make some excellent points, and sure hope that someone "up there" hears you, my earlier posts some time ago about the TV notwithstanding (anyone have a time machine so I can go back and amend what I put?)

DISCLAIMER: Information is power, and I think Boondocksaint has done a great deal to spread knowledge.  The brit idea of allowing an option between several types of rigs (to keep things on the logsitical side somewhat realistic) and having the soldier choose, and making each type modular, may be the way to go? 
I think we've all seen the army go through some "mucking around" with ORBATS and stuff (Pioneers to engineers, back, perhaps to infantry, etc).  Some serious thinking is needed, serious solutions as well.  I think boondocksaint has a great idea here.


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## boondocksaint

In no particular order, some other ramblings I haven't slotted anywhere, but some of your pm's have prompted more lucid thinking;

1- I mentioned ammo resupply earlier, our PL had various 'Ready' cans on the outside of the Lav's-- each section had 25 ish spare mags ( dont tell CQ) and had them in an ammo can strapped to the Lav- as well as a can of C-9 and M203- grenades were in with the mags- unpackaged with electrical tape around the spoon and body- some fights we used 15 or mags each and grenades.....lots, and M203 as well

2- the 60mm in our PL was in my Lav, stowed where the winch would go, the base plate and bipod already attached to the tube, all folded up it all fit with 2x 4 packs of HE--with an additional load in our Lav and spare ammo in other cars--deployed it every night-the ILL is great--and in the 'entry phase' of the Garmser fight we deployed the tube beside the Lav and took out a TB spotter who'd been calling in their own 60 mm fire on us ( a JDAM got their tube ) 

3- Drop bags should be incorporated into a new mag change drill--most of my platoon used drop bags--they're a semi-rigid bag similar to a chalk bag climbers use- instead of trying to put a mag back in its slot, you simply dump it in the bag which is cinched however tight you want the opening--it speeds up a mag change by several seconds
a) several people have said ' why not just drop the mag on the ground?'-- in several fights those empty mags were rebombed and used, so they arent disposable, yes you lose some here and there ( there's spares)
b) the main reason believe it or not, is muscle memory--most of us were incapable of actually just letting the mag fall to the ground--years of putting the damn thing away is ingrained in us--fear of CQ may have something to do with this, but mostly muscle memory

4- I mentioned my P-L earlier ( Platoon Leader, yes it's American, it caught on with some platoons ) I dont want to give the illusion he just sat back and watched the fight or called in fire missions- he was in the thick of the fighting like everyone else-he went in doors- he fought up front and nasty like all the lads--as did our W.O., he was fond of grabbing the C-6 from the poor gunner who humped it ( sangin video ) and fired it--you could hear them bickering and swearing at each other in the middle of a fight 
 gunner-' feck you i humped it im shooting it' 
WO-' dude come on just let me shoot it a little' 
gunner-' did you carry it?' 
WO-' i'll carry it next time i promise'
gunner-'you said that last time

5- the Chimo's-- they also fought as hard as everyone else, and hopefully some of them on here can relay some of their experiences as well, when my Lav was broken for awhile, I had my sect in a Chimo Lav with their guys driving-gunning-crew commanding- you dont train for that stuff, it just works out

6- Humour- wasnt sure if I should rank this as postworthy or not, you can decide--Canadians have an odd blend of humour, even in combat, it's a stress reliever, it takes your mind off what is happening etc, I've heard people yell
" where do want your well?"
" is this where the shura is?"
 and a smattering of other things as well that evoked laughter in the middle of a gun fight--it happens, it doesnt make you a freak or abnormal, the Americans we had fighting with us would sometimes look at us and shake their heads, but we'd get them to crack a smile usually--you hit every emotional high and low there is before/during and after a fight, I've never cried or laughed so much in all my life as I have those 7 months ( I didnt cry during fights  ) 

7-The effect of fighting with allies--not sure what it is exactly that makes us ( Canadians ) want to prove our worth when we have Americans or Brits around, but its there.  The biggest compliment to us when Americans would say " thank God you guys were here for this fight", and mean it.

8- Fight harder than the enemy--it sounds obvious--but if you've ever played sports and played a lesser caliber team, you may find yourself playing down to their level. It happens in a fight sometimes also. The more desparate your situation, the harder you fight, but you need to fight like that all the time, not every taliban is a good fighter, many are, but the weaker ones dont deserve any less aggresive destruction just cause they arent fighting well ( you can tell quickly what your up against )
-an American 2 star general visited us before a battle in Panjawi and summed it up by saying " if you kill the crap out of them once, really kill him good, you wont ever have to fight that same guy again"


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## vonGarvin

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> 6- Humour- wasnt sure if I should rank this as postworthy or not, you can decide--Canadians have an odd blend of humour, even in combat, it's a stress reliever, it takes your mind off what is happening etc, I've heard people yell
> " where do want your well?"
> " is this where the shura is?"
> and a smattering of other things as well that evoked laughter in the middle of a gun fight--it happens, it doesnt make you a freak or abnormal, the Americans we had fighting with us would sometimes look at us and shake their heads, but we'd get them to crack a smile usually--you hit every emotional high and low there is before/during and after a fight, I've never cried or laughed so much in all my life as I have those 7 months ( I didnt cry during fights  )


Humour, and laughing, are (from evolution, I believe) nature's way of relieving stress. I can not even imagine the stress you guys were under, so, it makes sense.  And I think that once the troops stop laughing, there's something wrong.  Now, I'm not saying that we make light of EVERYTHING, but sometimes the proper Simpson's reference at the right time can make a world of difference.  I can only imagine my reaction on hearing someone say "Is this where the shura is?"  I probably would have bust a gut!


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## KevinB

BDS -- great AAR's -- I hope these are getting out (and rammed down peoples throats)

  I'm flying out of Ottawa tomorrow to Ed - so hopefully I can get together with you guys again (this time I will make the Hhour  :-[)
Plus if you guys want to do some shooting I have a tickle trunk of optics and stuff coming out to visit.

Maybe we can work on "#4's" Immediate reaction drills to lost mag


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## vonGarvin

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> BDS -- great AAR's -- I hope these are getting out (and rammed down peoples throats)
> 
> I'm flying out of Ottawa tomorrow to Ed - so hopefully I can get together with you guys again (this time I will make the Hhour  :-[)
> Plus if you guys want to do some shooting I have a tickle trunk of optics and stuff coming out to visit.
> 
> Maybe we can work on "#4's" Immediate reaction drills to lost mag



+1

As a convert (I-6 knows what I mean...hint: TV and feces)

Have a good one, fellas.

:cheers:


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## GAP

These lessons are invaluable...each will take from it as he can...but all will remember them when the time comes. Excellent. 

ps: the black humor is infectious and we loved it as much then as you do now...it is never forgotten and, you are right, there's something about cracking up in the middle of a firefight.


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## medicineman

I've always been a firm believer in laughter is the cure all for everything - and one of the top 3 stress relievers around.  Getting someone to crack up while everything is going to shite around you is a good way to get people to refocus, have a big nervous energy dump, and get on with things like it was the normal thing to do.  I do draw the line at practical jokes during minefield breaches/extractions...

MM


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## ArmyRick

Boondocksaint, good stuff. I have been talking to the guys in my Platoon and they are all ears witht he stuff I have been passing on.


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## darmil

> -as did our W.O., he was fond of grabbing the C-6 from the poor gunner who humped it ( sangin video ) and fired it--you could hear them bickering and swearing at each other in the middle of a fight
> gunner-' feck you i humped it im shooting it'
> WO-' dude come on just let me shoot it a little'
> gunner-' did you carry it?'
> WO-' i'll carry it next time i promise'
> gunner-'you said that last time


LOL
Good stuff Boondocksaint I hope this stuff is passed around and is taught to the guys that are going on the next rotos very valuable stuff.


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## SupersonicMax

Ref the message by the CDS (on Internet communications), maybe we shouldn't discuss those things publicly?

Max


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## Bruce Monkhouse

If there is something you think shouldn't be here, report it to a mod. I have just put a post back that had been taken off and subsequently was cleared a few minutes ago by someone with experience in these matters.


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## Big Red

Thanks for the AARs, good reading and good job!

+1 on the concussion grenades. If you can trade for some from the US guys, they are designed for confined spaces, and they are lighter to carry than a frag.


*Still looking for a contract that involves calling in JDAMs and fragging rooms  :crybaby:


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## boondocksaint

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Ref the message by the CDS (on Internet communications), maybe we shouldn't discuss those things publicly?



Nothing contained in the AAR's is Opsec, nor is any of the play by play commentary I've included to show human side to fighting, for the purpose of the forums I've intentionally left out any detailed mention of several things, that most people here with experience can read between the lines.


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## HItorMiss

Darn right we can Boondock, please keep adding them.

I have come completely to grips with my large TIC where I was wounded but I have been thinking about many of the points I want to put up when I feel ready, yours have just made me realise how important they are.


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## boondocksaint

Hitormiss, write what you can, when you can, for me these were the easy Tic's to talk about. There are several fights I started to write about and had to walk away from. ( for now ) Your experiences when you post them will help the next folks, and it will help you as well. Things you may have completely forgotten about, or glazed over become fresh again when you put words to paper ( or electronic document ) 

I also think a diversity of experiences are needed so folks have choices, I've mentioned before this is just our platoons way of working. And something your platoon did will offer a different perspective that can offer new solutions. Before going over I ( alot of us did ) read every AAR I could from the Fallujah battle, IDF Fibua tactics and old school WW2 stuff as well. This is a fresh as it gets as far as passing knowledge, as always bearing in mind Opsec. 

For once their is a real chance that change can be made gained by Canadian experiences, not from someone else's armies battles. Don't pass it up, offer what you can.


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## boondocksaint

http://www.beloblog.com/KGW_Blogs/afghanistan/2006/07/

The above link will take you to Scott Kestersons work hosted by KGW.com, a Dallas news agency. He's the photo journalist we had with our Pl for several fights and he's been in Afghanistan for the better part of a year. Last I heard from him he was going to be there for a few more months before continuing his work back home. He's embedded with ETT's and basically got our story by accident.

His writing is fancier then mine, and from an outside perspective. I generally have very little time for any reporter, but this guy would be 3 feet behind us in a fight, he even got cutoff with us in Sangin. He never intruded, or forced a conversation, or asked a bunch of questions to dig for dirt. He just lived with us, ate with us, and shared our risks.

Hopefully one day soon he'll release more of his footage.


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## westie47

BDS -  Good job on the AAr's. I intend to pass some of the lessons along to my troops. Maybe change training a bit. You guys did a stand-up job over there, you should be proud of yourselves. I drank with some of the boys.


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## Link

I've taken a lot of out these, really appreciate having them available to read, as I'm going in to the reg inf shortly.  Thanks.

Link


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## tlg

Thanks alot guys. These AAR's give us but a tiny glimpse of what you go through over there. 

Keep em comin.


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## silentbutdeadly

Sura LL

- When you stop at a village for a Sura ( meeting) make sure you have cut offs with the Zulu Lavs etc. In Shinkay, we had my callsign 200m down the waddie and we used the ANA as cutoff on the other side. Close protection vehicle at the time where 2 G-wagons GSK's, reason for that is because our 11 callsign was blown up. 

- Try to hold the Sura as close to the veh. as possible or at least have them with eyes on and can cover u.
When the shyte went down with Capt Greene the Lav was able to fire at persons in the hilltops also the GSK's moved forward quickly and covered us with there C6's

- Hold it in a open area and something with cover. Again with Capt Greene incident, we had a good distance to the village about 200m and we where on a flat part of the waddie bank, so when we came under contact my C9 gunners dropped down and returned fire with the bank as cover.

- when the locals shown up make sure you only get the village head and maybe one or two others person at the Sura. All bystanders will be kept back at least 50m. Frisk everyone! even up there skinny legs until you touch there you know whats! Hence how an axe got through. Anyone who approaches after that gets frisked and then sent back 50m.

-Once everyone is there (IE. Pl Comdr, Cimic, and village heads) there are two soldiers as close protection for the meeting about 5m from that group the rest of the section will be either half mooned with the veh. to there backs or in all around with the Sect Comdr roaming. This worked the best when we were in Helmend doing Sura's.

-Once the Sura is finish the PL Comdr and his group move back and the rest of the Section moves to there vehicles.

make sure you brief your troops through out there Sura on where and what to do in case of contact, i think that's what helped me once we where ambushed , my guys knew where to go and what to do before it started.

Oh almost forgot and not trying to be a dink here but keep your helmets on and i am not saying this for what happened to Capt Greene, but the story i have of that day. When contact happened the medic was called and was attending to the Sir, under fire i might add very good medic, i was running around controlling my section to return fire without my helmet on, yes i know :blotto:, well my troops said i was running back and forth make sure things were covered all this time bullets were hitting everywhere. One of the my troops said to me " Hey Sarge want your helmet" with me turning to him and saying " F**k no i am to busy".Just after i said that i turned my head an a RPK burst went up this tree about 1 m in front of me. I guess you can imagine what i did next! I turned to that troop and said " Throw me my F**kin helmet"


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## boondocksaint

Thanks for the above comments, Panjawi report almost done.

SBD brings up a great point about Shura's, as they are an event noone really trains for in detail. They wind up being a combination of several skill sets rolled into one situation.

Lots of rubber gloves
Lots of hand sani


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## KevinB

Try to get Handheld "Garrett" (IIRC) metal detectors -- a lot of the Afghans are stinky folk -- and they dont appreciate the "handhold" when you search the 'junk'..

Even the "suicide vest" or explosive underwear systems have enough metal in them to set it off (okay so the detector guy gets vaporized -but the need of the many..)
  I did the week long US DOS explosives detection course -- I can offer some ideas offline to guys with a need...


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## boondocksaint

Panjawi

At this point most folks are reasonably familiar with that name, it is a complex environment. It is also where most of us experienced our first true combat. Up until the time our Coy/ Pl went into Panjawi we had been IED'd multiple times, VBIE'd, rocketed, RPG'd, attacked in various ways. But it was not until Panjawi we experienced prolonged combat with an enemy that didnt 'shoot and scoot'. 

For our Pl it required us to evolve everyday, sometimes every hour. We entered the outer rim during the middle of the night at the beginning of the op and within 15 minutes we were in an ambush while driving to our positions. Fought through RPG fire and small arms with only 1 antennea getting hit. Upon consolidating it was decided to use another route, we were again ambushed, but this time decided to take 'their' ground from them. While this was going on, pretty much every other element involved was also fighting it out in their various areas. The sky looked like something out of the Baghdad footage from the old days. Tracer everyhwere, theirs and ours. And the blessed Boom Boom Boom of 25mm.

Being in the air hatch we would fire at targets, drop down to reload and swap out with the next guy who had just done the same. Occasionally the 'green fire hose' of RPK tracer would direct itself at us and we'd drop down fast squishing the other guys while it passed over us. Forced the TB in our area to bugger off ( the ones still alive ) and prepared to enter the town on foot at first light. We'd been fighting now for about 2-3 hours, off and on.

The Lav's provided overwatch while we would locate a feasible way for them to enter the town, clearing as we went. Found many dead TB, and drag marks and kit. As we were making our way down an outer road to link up with one of our Pl's we were hit again, near the rear of our Pl where the ANA/ETT were. They took up positions along a wall and returned fire while we moved back to their positions. Again RPG, RPK and small arms, and now a mortar. 

Quickly linked up just short of the ANA with the other section comd and asked him to 'dust the rooftops' with grenades to suppress the small arms, this way I could get my guys up to the wall and help the ANA out. That is the footage from the combat camera of grenades being thrown one after another over the wall. This was the first time under contact I had to make decisions as a leader, using what I thought was a dried vineyard my sect got moving and had to cover about 50m to get to the wall where the ANA were. Quickly sank calf deep in a not so dry vineyard and sloshed our way forward taking small arms and the occasional mortar round ( not accurate, but noisy ) The RPG's that missed the wall, sailed over us, but the soft ground also helped absorb them. 

Finally made it to the wall and started defining targets, and returing fire. As the lads got shooting I spent time going to each one and asking what he was engaging, firing a few rounds and making my way down the line to the next guy. Found the ETT and linked up with him, talked about the situation and targets. We decided to 'step up' the fire from both of our sections to start winning the firefight.

Winning the firefight....remember being assessed and hearing 'ok, you won the firefight and then you...'

Winning the firefight can be an ever evolving event. It's not a 'phase' or 'checkbox' and procceed to the next step. At this point our Pl WO arrived with the C-6 and added its weight. The ETT very calmly got his own RPG gunners to get ready to return fire, and I had one of my guys get his M-72 ready . Holy loud batman. Fighting is generally louder then you think it will be, but with all that firepower going at the enemy it was body shaking. Not that I wasnt shaking pretty good anyway. An incoming RPG can have quite an effect on you even when it isnt a direct hit, several hit our wall or just in front, and its....unsettling. Now it was our turn to unsettle them.

Either we scored enough hits, or hit close enough, that the enemy fire slackened dramatically. The other sect had secured one flank while the Chimo's attached to us had moved up a bit earlier and secured the other flank.  The Pl comd was coordinating the big stuff with higher right on the firing line with us, calmly describing the situation, and asking for, and getting every asset he wanted. No umpire to say 'no'. 

This also has an effect on the lads, a very positive one. Anytime our arty, or CAS helps us out, it was a powerful morale booster. That's our stuff, our big toys, we have them, you (they) dont, you perk up when a minute ago you were exhausted, smiles break out, you know you will win.

You dont always know what the outcome of a fight will be, are we winning? are they? Every fight I was in had a dramatically different 'feel' or 'tone'. And during a particular fight it can change. As this was our first real fight on the ground, we were miles from experienced or savy, didnt know what to expect. All of these things do eventually dawn on you, different bullet noises, RPG noises, grenade blasts, enemy shouts and your own shouts.

We were told to pull back, let the 'big toys' finish the enemy off, grab the Lav's and go in and mop up. Broke contact, and moved back to the overwatch position. Aside from dehydration ( 0630 and 45degrees ) some sprains and hearing loss, all ok. Rebomb boys were going back in. Everyone was ready in moments.
We began to evolve.

We had survived, now we would become aggresive. We would no longer just sit behind a wall, we would push, attack, flank and get as close as we could and finish the enemy. This evolution happens to everyone. Not only did you survive, you didnt piss yourself ( much ) your friends and sect mates are with you, you defeated the enemy in a real fight, it wasnt pretty, it wasnt what you expected ( but some of it was ), but it worked. All of the little things in training paid off huge. Drills, trust, teamwork. And now some experience, not alot, but enough to start pushing back hard.

Our first day in Panjawi our PL had 5 TIC's. I dont remember sleeping or eating, or needing to, I just remember being with my friends doing what I'd trained my whole career to do.

As always these are the experiences I had with my Pl. Not doctrine, or the gospel on how to fight a battle. I realize after writing this one it was more of what was going on in my head then how the fight was fought. Maybe that will help the next guy going over.


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## GAP

> Maybe that will help the next guy going over.



And it will. You have put into writing in a clear coherent way, what every body thinks and does. Not exactly, but you have grabbed and displayed the essence of being there. 

Like you said, every TIC is different, but the essence remains the same. That "big picture" of what is happening, where it is happening and what needs to happen next become clear as a bell. Thank you, you just brought back the feeling of contact I haven't felt in 30+ years, and I found I missed it.


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## boondocksaint

GAP- thank you.

Panjawi- evolving

Later that same morning we began moving back into our previous contact site. This time we brought the Lav's. Bear in mind this was all new to us, and we were still feeling things out. The debate about fighting vehicles in MOUT/FIBUA has raged for ages. We managed to find ways to make it work for us. Winning the firefight became a bit easier.

Having cleared several hundred metres of road, compounds and terrain our PL took up positions along a wall for a breather. While resting and rehydrating one of the C-9 gunners beside me was avidly watching something in his scope and not breathing, I asked him what was wrong. I think I see Taliban.

WHERE? Immediatly the entire Pl was on their feet scoping the indicated area about 125m away. He'd spotted a Taliban with an RPK moving into a firing position along a rubbled wall. Confirmed, open fire lads. The entire Pl fired, at about the exact same moment, so did the Taliban, and his other concealed friends. The RPK gunner went down, but his weapon was grabbed by another TB, moved and set up again. It began firing at the wall inbetween our C-6 gunner and myself. Time for a new position. In one of the Panjawi vid's you can hear our WO telling us to watch our flank, moved the lads down to the flank while the PL shook out, and the ANA as well shook out.

Here is where the Lav goes to work. Calmly, systematically destroying enemy positions. I had the left flank with my guys, and the WO set up the C-6 in a place of vantage. We were taking fire from several rooftops about 125m away, as well as the wall. After linking up with him we decided we could try to flank their position. The American ETT had previously warned us that several of his friends had been killed and wounded less then 150m from our position months earlier in a trap. With this in mind we started our movement clearing as we went. Our PL comd was already coordinating arty, the ETT was going from ANA to ANA and correcting his firing stance as Scott Kesterson said 'like a school teacher'. Imagine controlling your section in a firefight, now add an interpreter.

We'd made it about 30m up the flank when an RPK opened up on our position. They had us bracketed fast, and our cover was being torn apart.  They knew the area and had been prepared. Unlike training you dont always get to the objective the first time.

Back up boys, timmie has this covered.
Kudos to timmie. 

At about this time, our other Pl on our flank intercepted and destroyed several Taliban trying to get our flank. They also evolve.

We made our way back to the flank corner with the WO, drop the boys in firing positions, and then go over to the closest Lav. Once briefed on the exact target area, he destroyed it effectively. It's nearing noon, and the heat is brutal, you find a water bottle in your hand without noticing you've pulled one out. Crew comd's are tossing boxes of water off in the middle of the fight for us. We've been fighting for close to an hour this time and the word comes down ' impact in 15 seconds!'

We get low, but are still too curious about the target effects not to watch the rounds come in. On target . On target again, and again. Target destroyed, God bless the guns. This was one of those fights that actually ended with a bang, sometimes they just fizzle out.

After securing the area, our other PL searched the enemy positions, several dead, and several more blood trails. On one of the rooftops a destroyed mortar position is located, the one who'd earlier given us more hearing loss.  One of the Panjawi vid's shows us walking their positions the next day, and pointing out ours.

Our feeling of accomplishment is quickly shattered when a soldier in another Coy 400m from ours is killed. One of our friends from our Coy is wounded in the hand by an enemy grenade trying to clear resistance. He is a sect comd and goes in every door first, not to be a hero. But because he doesnt want harm to come to any of his guys. This is wildly common, noone wants to lose one of their men, and you find yourself taking alot of the 'hard spots' yourself without realizing it. The most agonizing decisions I made in contact were having to send my boys into a spot if I wasnt in a position to do this myself. You have to do it, you cant do it all yourself. And your boys dont want you to.

Our PL comd did it
Our WO did it
The Lav crews would drive in front of you and suck up damage when they knew you were being pounded.
The ANA also proved their bravery under fire for us more then once, as did their ETT.
The lowest Pte's also did it, going to the 'hard spot' on his own so that noone else would have to.


As a history geek, I've often read accounts of Civil war soldiers hiding behind a single tree, ten in a row. This may have less to do with cover, then it has to do with the sense of security you get from being next to a buddy. I've seen guys leave their own ample cover and run through fire to get to a friend for no other reason then to share their security. Guys will instinctively 'scooch' over next to each other under heavy fire, must be that nesting thing. 

As always, this is not the holy grail of fighting, tactics or doctrine. Just some experiences that hopefully help someone in the future.


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## patrick666

Boondock, thank you. 

Keep them coming.


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## boondocksaint

Hyderabad 

If you've read Scott Kesterson's reports about Hyderabad, or seen the video, you have a good idea of what went on. I'll fill in some other spots.

Our Pl was given a task in coordination with Recce to check out some compounds on the outskirts of Hyderabad. Recce moved in during the night on foot, to get some 'eyes on'. Then we were to move in and check things out, a sect of chimo's were attached as per normal. As we moved up to our staging area we dropped the ramps for a last nervous pee, and a hasty breakfast of beefjerky, stale chips and some weird type of soda. It was that time of morning when it's still dark, but you can see quite far, that's when the tracer started flying.

We were about 500m away and could see green tracer ( bad ) and red tracer ( good ) streaking at each other, as well as the distinct rattle of small arms and RPG's. Recce was in it. On the radio speaker we heard their Pl comd give a quick sitrep, very calm, but it amplified the background noise of batte. We ramped up and looked at our own Pl comd's Lav. Another sitrep from Recce, things are not good, heavily outnumbered, need help now, our Pl comd points to the town and our lead Lav gets moving.

Alot of us in our Pl have known the guys in Recce for 5-10-15 years, and knowing they were in trouble lent a real sense of emergency to an already bad situation. We took small arms on our approach but did a 'thunder run' into town and broke into Recce's encircled area. They had about 12 dismounts ( IIRC ) and had been fighting an estimated 40ish taliban. Aggresive taliban. That was one of the first things I noticed when the ramp dropped. _They_ were pushing us. We now had several Tic's under our belts, we had confidence, some experience, high morale, and a feeling that noone could beat us. But very quickly in this fight we realized these taliban were very tough, aggresive and well armed.

I knew my Pl comd was in the turret, so I was looking for the WO when a buddy from Recce ran through fire to link up with us. In the video you can hear him yell ' compound 75m', off we went. The taliban compounds and positions were on the other side of a high berm that ran along the banks of a steep and deep waterway/creek. Gained the top of the berm, and commenced firing at groups of taliban about 50m away. We had the height advantage and could look down into their compounds in some spots, and started hitting them hard. A couple of minutes into it, some of our Lav's, including the Chimo Lav moved up carefully since the fields were heavily irrigated. Once in position they started pounding the enemy as well. On this side of the field, timmie was dying or running.

I wanted to get into the compounds to clear them, but had no way to cross the water, so I grabbed the lads and started off towards the only bridge about 100m away. At this point I realized the C-6 team and some other members of the Pl were coming with us. It happens, it's dark, loud and confusing, just make sure you know who has attached themselves to you. Then you can pass it down at some point, that everyone's accounted for. 

One of our Lav's was on the bridge creeping forward pounding a compound that was giving us trouble, a couple of grenades were tossed at us and we all hit the dirt. I happened to do this on a bare road, realized my stupidity and started cursing. Also caught on video for posterity. Elements of Recce were still up forward and we fought our way up next to them. Together we redoubled our fire and started to take the fight to the enemy hard. The enemy would not go away. I yelled for the closest Lav to move up so we could get behind it ( tank ) and assault the compound that was shooting at us. Jammed cannon.

While the gunner was clearing the cannon, we kept up a high rate of fire, advancing as much as we could. Boom Boom Boom he's back in action and off we go. One of my boys prep's a grenade and slams it into the window where we've been getting shot at from. Boom. I spray the room. Room clear. We need to get around the side of the compound to get into it, and that's where the heavy enemy fire is coming from. Everything is on fire, smoke is burning our eyes, but it does provide us some cover. Around the corner Im about to head into what I thought would be one doorway, theres about 3 immediate doors, heavy fire coming from one. Back up! Back up! too many rooms. 

My favorite fragger was out of grenades so I get him to fire on the doors while I get my grenades ready. Boom Boom, get up, spray room, room clear. We also used the Lav to knock in some walls when it seemed prudent. The ANA and ETT are also fighting hard and pushing quickly under heavy fire.  Enemy fire is starting to dwindle off now. They are using ditches along the fields as cover and appear to be pulling back, when we are told to pull back, there may be a plan for arty. Now we break contact, Recce out first , then the rest of us, crammed into our Lav's. Good job boys.

Moved back about 200m, still in town, and started re-bombing,10 minutes later got word to head back in on foot, vehicles in close support. Came under contact again, our lead Lav caught an RPG team trying to set up and destroyed them. Resistance broke quickly after that and we cleared the remainder of the area without much further fighting.

Now the chimo's went into their primary role, while we helped where we could, and secured the area. 
Lots of bodies, trails and weapons, and alot of black tar heroin. No wonder they fought so hard. During the fight one of the Recce guys was hit in the armour, it saved his life. 

We had fought for over an hour, at times the enemy showed great resolve and a determination to drive us off. These guys in particular were very tough, they moved aggresively and fought hard. Later, back in the leaguer we found we had an even tighter bond with the guys in Recce. We had other fights ahead of us, Sangin , Gorak and others, but that bond with Recce would prove invaluable when we went back to Panjawi on Aug 3rd.

Again, these are the experiences we had, not TTP's or SOP's on conducting a fight.


----------



## Infanteer

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> During the fight one of the Recce guys was hit in the armour, it saved his life.



This isn't the first time I've seen this; many AAR's coming from Iraq and Afghan state ALWAYS wear your IPE.  It may be "nice" of a leader to allow guys to doff it in the heat, but it doesn't do anyone favours when there is a sudden TIC (to use the new mot du jour).

BDS, I have a question.  In your experience, was there a difference in the enemy.  It is just generic "Taliban" in the media, but when you guys went over the scenes of fights, did you find that the enemy varied from fight to fight.  Maybe some Pashtun Taliban here, or some foreign Jihadis there.  If so, was there a difference in the quality and/or approaches to fighting of different groups of bad guys?


----------



## boondocksaint

Within moments of contact, you get an impression of the quality and quantity of the enemy. Different regions had different fighters. Without getting into detail, there are confirmed cases of various 'jihadists' from many different places.

In Hyderabad those particular fighters were on the higher end of taliban we fought. Of course they were defending ALOT of recently harvested black tar heroin. Which by the way, we had know idea about before the fight. If im timmie taliban and I lose $XXXX amount of drugs to the Canadians, he's probably in some doo doo. Hence he fought very hard. And was well armed.

Age and leadership played a role as well. The older guys, some Mujahdeen era fighters, were very aggresive. Their entire adult life has been combat of one form or another. While the younger guys would stand in the middle of a field or road and shoot from the hip, an older guy would have very advanced fire positions and tactics.

We practice against stationary non active targets. Experienced taliban actively seek your flank or other weak spot and move to exploit it. He does not sit idly by waiting for you to root him out. When we clear trenches in Wainwright the Fig 11's convienently stay in their hole, timmie does not. This was hard to get used to, but the more experienced we became, the quicker we were to develop the battlefield and get to work before he did. Take away his options, make him do what you want him to, then destroy him. He is very actively trying to do this to you.

One of the things some of us noticed was ' fighting to their level'. By this I mean that if the enemy was firing 30 rds a minute at us, we'd slow our fire down. If he stopped firing RPG's we stopped firing M-72's. That wins you no fights. If he stepped up his fire, so did we. Cancel that. YOU set the tempo. We corrected that with experience. 

For every fight we made it through, we gained knowledge and experience. They do the same, when the fight us and live, they now have knowledge and experience. Hence why the American general we met told us ' kill them really dead the first time, then you wont have to fight that same guy again'.

IPE is crucial, life saving. You cant wear it all the time in a state of 'hyper vigilance', troops will burn out. There are places you wear it all the time, and there are places you can set it within arms reach in order to relax. Choose wisely. We wore it up mountains, in contact with 65 degree heat and everything inbetween, get used to it in training, it'll save your life.


----------



## kerfuffled

Boondocksaint, awesome posts, my heart swells with pride at you fine Canadian lads. God bless. 
Am right this minute cracking a beer in your honour.


----------



## gaspasser

BDS, I must say that your thread is quite the eye opener into the hearts and minds of our soldiers.  Your stories are well told and much appreciated.  It is with sunken heart that I will never meet "men" of your calibre, except to recieve them home on the Airbus.
There is always an open beer on my table.
 
GP


----------



## warchild

Very well done on all AAR's and points to look at for later training.  Hopefully this will be noticed and as the CO said "It is a sect comd fight".  Let's hope that the dist list will be big and we can finally get away from "RANGISM"S and "WATCISM".  Along with that,  now that the door is open to the military community it would be great if these hard lessons learned are actually thought of for the future implimentation into training.


----------



## silentbutdeadly

Its like Warchild said Its a Sect Comdr fight and allot of our training from now on should be geared towards that style of combat. At least we could go up to PL size tactics, but the days of Coy and Cbt tm attacks are going the way of the FN. Yes a Coy might move into a staging area and have a AOR within the operation, but its the Platoons and the Sections that are dictating the fight to the enemy not the Coy Comdr. The Coy Comdr most of the time is going off of advice of the troops on the ground if that. Many a Pl Comdr/WO/Sect Comdr called in there own Arty and CAS.


----------



## Infanteer

In that vein, perhaps the USMC is going down the right path with their concept of _Distributed Operations_, which seeks to increase the capabilities of the infantry squad (section) to make it more independant through various improvements in things like comms, kit (lighten it up!), weapons systems (increased lethality at squad level).

https://www.mccdc.usmc.mil/FeatureTopics/DO/A%20Concept%20for%20Distributed%20Operations%20-%20Final%20CMC%20signed%20co.pdf

Anyways, the floor is yours again.

Infanteer


----------



## warchild

Yes and what is the 1st Bn doing in 07....  CTCC (Combat Team Commanders Crse).  Now I realize that this was on the books before we left but given what we learned over there I hope that within the scope of the CTCC that some "Outside the box" scenario's are used.  In saying that I also hope that any and all training we do from now on, that we use a creative flair towards the training scenario's that we will use.  An example of poor creativeness on the range would be by an OIC/RSO and Snr NCo (who will assist in the scenario) would be the "good old section attack with 3 mags and one en".  If that happens that will push guy's out.  We need to mirror as best as possible the compounds, trails, and natural obstacles here so the sect comd can get used to the chaos and confusion to best prep himself, his sect and over all his Pl prior to going in.  I just want to say one more thing about that.  Yes we will have to do more training both blank and live.  Just because we have experienced combat does not make us "Exempt from anything but live".  Just wanted to say that because I heard some talk today from some people that I thought would know better.


----------



## a_majoor

The problem, as always, is resources. We will have to engage all brain cells to think of effective training scenarios and venues without having access to fully instrumented MOUT ranges or crowds of actors representing the normal activity in the market place. Of course it is a bit difficult to train to patrol in a RG-31 when they are all in the sandbox........

I'm sure there is enough creativity in our troops and junior leaders to start taking this project on right now. We need widest dissemination of "Lessons Learned" in order to assist people in designing scenarios and interpreting the training as successful or not (without the metrics like the "seven steps of a section attack" check box sheet).


----------



## PPCLI Guy

a_majoor said:
			
		

> I'm sure there is enough creativity in our troops and junior leaders to start taking this project on right now. We need widest dissemination of "Lessons Learned" in order to assist people in designing scenarios and interpreting the training as successful or not (without the metrics like the "seven steps of a section attack" check box sheet).



1 VP will conduct a 3 day AAR post Remembrance week, and capture LL and AAR pts - and then lead the Bde Leadership Symposium.  We will do our best to create useable product that is accessible to all - and that will include LL from the process of Recovery and Regeneration.


----------



## McG

Infanteer said:
			
		

> In that vein, perhaps the USMC is going down the right path with their ...


Infanteer,
In some ways we are not behind the bigger militaries in soldier modernization.  Have a look at Canada's SIREQ project (even the USMC is looking at this to help them define where they want to go): http://pubs.drdc.gc.ca/pubdocs/sireq_e.html

Note: specific studies can be found through the link to the upper left.


----------



## warchild

I agree with a-majoor and also would still stress creativity.  We have spent so long working with less. Now that we have more it should be a no brainer.  However the attitude higher has to allow that, and allow the NCO's planning ranges along with he PL to be creative.  Saying "Think out side the box" is great but, you have to be allowed to "Play outside the box."  I have personally seen allot of people been "Put back in the box" because the person that these forward thinkers are bring their ideas to are old school and are uncomfortable doing something new or different.  So maybe it is a culture thing to.  But given that what we are now engaged in combat and with great forums such as this site to disseminate valueable lessons learned it will disseminate allot of the raw AAR's that are now going to be given allot more weight.  I think our new boss has the right idea's and will let us do it.  I hope that others even at the high end of the NCM side will follow his lead and let us "Be outside the box" and get over the idea that you should shave,  immediately after you have been in combat. ???


----------



## a_majoor

Having worked in training troops for many years, I am imprinted to some extent with the check box mentality (wandering around behind a section as the DS, your biggest thing was keeping the giant clipboard with marking sheets and assessment forms dry). For many people, filling in the check boxes is the "metric" for determining if a training event is successful.

There are some other issues to be addressed. Much of what we think we know is not from "proper sources", a common observation in Urban OPS is troops now tend to "stack" in four man bricks when assaulting buildings. While this seems to be a SOF/police thing, is it really the way "we" are supposed to do this? (This is a rhetorical question, BTW, for obvious reasons I don't expect an answer on this forum). Once again, wide dissemination of AARs through the proper channels will get everyone in the same headspace for planning, training and assessing.


----------



## boondocksaint

A-majoor, I agree that there will always need a method of checking 'the box'. What I would put forward though, is that we can look at modifying those boxes and those checks. Recent experiences can be drawn on, and used to determine what needs revamping.  Of course once the LL and the AAR's are some what hashed out.

mmmmm evolution   ;D


----------



## Haggis

warchild said:
			
		

> We have spent so long working with less. Now that we have more it should be a no brainer.



We have more in theatre than we've ever had before.  However back here at home the cupboards are still mostly bare.  This will become even more acute as more stuff gets destroyed and damaged in theatre and we start raping the units and CMTC for LAVs etc.  Already units are feeling the pinch in certain consumable commodites... and we still have 30 months of warfighting left in our current Afghanistan mandate.


----------



## paracowboy

Haggis said:
			
		

> However back here at home the cupboards are still mostly bare.  This will become even more acute as more stuff gets destroyed and damaged in theatre and we start raping the units...units are feeling the pinch in certain consumable commodites...


preach it Brother! Sing it!


----------



## vonGarvin

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> mmmmm evolution   ;D


evolution vice revolution ;D

As for "box checking", for this past summer, on the course for which I was crse O, the checklist was gone.  Yes, certain drills had to be done (eg: win the firefight BEFORE consolidation, as one blatant example); however, the "gut feel" of the DS, and leadership, were key.  In the end, some guys passed even though a box-checking event would have failed and others failed even though they hit every box in the old-style list.  The assessment process isn't perfect; however, it's better.  Will it ever be perfect?  I doubt it.  Will it get better?  I sure hope so!


----------



## time expired

As a old cold war warrior I would like to tell you guys how proud I am of you and the work you did in
A-stan. It makes me proud to have been in the same army that you guys are serving in and has gone a 
long way in restoring my faith,which I must admit I was losing at the end of my enlistment.
 Having got that off my chest I have a question , are you satisfied with the range and stopping power
of the 5.56 round ?.Given the distances one can observe targets in a desert situation would not a heavier
round be an advantage?.
                             Regards


----------



## Petard

von Garvin said:
			
		

> As an example one fella called in a mission, and it was bang on.  Good initial grid, good "corrections" (based on "the round landed 'x' mils to the left", and so forth).  Then, the target was successfully engaged (the lad was doing a platoon attack).  Then the lad said "end of mission".  "End of mission out" was the reply.  Then he gave that target to the "FOO" (eg: the DS) for part of his fire plan.  The arty "missed".  Why?  He failed to "Record as target".  We gave him the lesson that once you say "end of mission", that's it, that's all, those guns go elsewhere.  Hopefully he learned his lesson (and no, he didn't fail because of that).
> 
> Now, before the flames come in, the Field Artillery School helped us immensely with these lessons, so it was not a slag on them what I say about their lesson plan.  It's just that the lesson plan is for the FOO course and future FOOs.  Also, previous courses had infantry guys giving the lessons who knew two things about calling in fire: Jack and Poo, and Jack left town!


 von G, I was the orginal author of the supported arm call for fire lesson plan some time ago, (cranked up with that cheezey hill back drop because the IFT was down). Sad to say it looks like some IG's thought it was too simple and jazzed it up since. Noted. I checked with the lads in the IFT about this tgt record business and some did think that if someone forgot to record the Tgt, that was that, you don't get it back; simon says. But this isn't so. Yes by the book, fire discipline-wise if someone wanted to re-engage that Tgt he should've said record as Tgt, but someone sticking exactly to that thinking is being a pedantic dink. The IFCCS in the Bty CP records all the fire missions on a log automatically, it wouldn't take much to retrieve it. The bottom line here is if someone forgot to record the target, they would just have to say plainly what it is they needed engaged again.

BDS & SBD your sharing this information is absolutley invaluable and much appreciated. Your professionalism is unmistakable even in the way you have described what were undoubtedly traumatic events.
I'll do what I can to pass the word


----------



## vonGarvin

Petard said:
			
		

> von G, I was the orginal author of the supported arm call for fire lesson plan some time ago, (cranked up with that cheezey hill back drop because the IFT was down). Sad to say it looks like some IG's thought it was too simple and jazzed it up since. Noted. I checked with the lads in the IFT about this tgt record business and some did think that if someone forgot to record the Tgt, that was that, you don't get it back; simon says. But this isn't so. Yes by the book, fire discipline-wise if someone wanted to re-engage that Tgt he should've said record as Tgt, but someone sticking exactly to that thinking is being a pedantic dink. The IFCCS in the Bty CP records all the fire missions on a log automatically, it wouldn't take much to retrieve it. The bottom line here is if someone forgot to record the target, they would just have to say plainly what it is they needed engaged again.


Hey there.  You're correct re: the target info is recorded.  The lesson wasn't so much to reflect "reality" as it was to reinforce a lesson with consequences, and in this case, the consequences were "missed targets".
That lesson was good, but I could tell that there were a few edits on it.  As I said in my orignal post, the FAS gave us stellar support on that course. (As they always do)


----------



## FSTO

Hi all, Navy guy here. This has been an absolutely fascinating read. Nice to get some first hand accounts of what is going on over there.  I know that this may off topic but sitting here in Canada I've been watching the news and if I wasn't in the forces I would think that we are getting our butts handed to us by the Taliban. What is your take on the way our home media is reporting on the war? Are they telling the truth or even a semblance of the truth?

The worst part about our Canadian Media is that their slant only helps the Taliban. They are more willing to trade 10 or 100 of their guys for 1 of ours.


----------



## boondocksaint

time expired said:
			
		

> are you satisfied with the range and stopping power
> of the 5.56 round ?.Given the distances one can observe targets in a desert situation would not a heavier
> round be an advantage?.



Most of our fighting was done at far closer range then I think any of us anticipated. Generally at the longer ranges, 200-300m, it became more about suppression and 'fixing' the enemy. 5.56 was more then sufficient, and we had other weapons to augment this of course.

It was great for close in fighting, between compounds, and in room clearing it did just fine. The age old arguement about a heavier round vs a lighter one will always happen. For me, the 5.56 got it done fine


----------



## Brad Sallows

Well.  I suppose this should mean a whole new level of attention will be given to training for "The Section Attack".


----------



## Infanteer

*cough* http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18270.0.html *cough*


----------



## Alex22

Hi boon. Im actually in Charlie Company of the 1st Vandoos. Were being deployed to support the PRT at the begining of december for an unknown amount of time. 6 to 9 months. I must say that reading this topic was an amazing, and very usefull reading. Im gonna be a C9 gunner and Im actually looking for a good Tac Vest that would hold at least 4 drums, with different other usefull items.. such as grenades, smokes and such. I know that the actual Tac Vest that we use in the forces just doesnt fit for what were gonna be doing there. You said that both of your c9 gunners were using the old webbing with 4 c9 pouches. Did it do the job, did they say they would prefer having a real tac vest? Because the webbing has a pretty limited ammount of pouches that can be fitted on it. Also, do you know if there is any way to buy one there at the american PX, or if there is a PX at all on Nathan Smith Camp? (thats where were going) 
I found myself one of these: http://www.opticsplanet.net/issak-60-saw-gunner-flotation-kit.html# and Im thinking about spending the 300$ on it. since my life, and the life of my squad might depend on it. Also, Id like to know what you think about the Surfire flashlight used by the forces in A-stan. I found a nice one at the R. Nicholls here in Quebec but if the one given by the CF is worth it I wont be spending 140$ on it.  

Im sorry for al those questions, but every information I can get on how it works over there (since our chain of command doesnt seems to be able to give us more then the minimum of information), might have an impact on how well I do my job. Thanks for your answer anyways. Anybody else who can give me anykind of usefull info is welcome also.


----------



## boondocksaint

Both my C-9 gunners liked using the old style web gear, it worked for them. Several of our other C-9 gunners used a variety of purchased vests, generally around $300 each. Small price to pay when you are reaching for drum number 4.

Buy your gear here in Canada, over there you will only get second rate stuff off the boardwalk. The PX has usable trinkets, but nothing vest-like.

Here in Canada we load ourselves down with alot of stuff, over there you will ditch all but the bare essentials, the old style gear worked fine in that case.


----------



## boondocksaint

Called a few of the guys to find out which brands they used;

Tiger Tactical, and Tactical Tailor were the two big names. Both can be built from the yoke up. Adding on whatever works for you. You can find both on-line. Also Black Hawk makes some nice rigs, pricey but well made. Beware certain types of chestrigs, they put alot of strain on your neck, unless they have an H strape on the back.

You wont always need to hump 4 drums, the situation will dictate. When your spidey senses tell you 4 is the right number, it's usually right. You will also be able to get the American patrol pouch for your ammo over there, holds 100rds and works better then ours. It's rigid and more compact so your ammo doesnt get jinked up. 

My primary C-9 gunner carried several of those, plus the one on his weapon, the plastic drums were his 'last chance' ammo. The bulk of his firing was either standing or kneeling, supported and unsupported. Get used to firing on the move, short bursts, walking not running. You will know when to go prone. Check your link often. Test fire daily, keep your chin up and your head down.


----------



## Haggis

Infanteer said:
			
		

> *cough* http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18270.0.html *cough*



It was only a matter of time before this was brought up.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Alex22 said:
			
		

> Hi boon. Im actually in Charlie Company of the 1st Vandoos. Were being deployed to support the PRT at the begining of december for an unknown amount of time. 6 to 9 months. I must say that reading this topic was an amazing, and very usefull reading. Im gonna be a C9 gunner and Im actually looking for a good Tac Vest that would hold at least 4 drums, with different other usefull items.. such as grenades, smokes and such. I know that the actual Tac Vest that we use in the forces just doesnt fit for what were gonna be doing there. You said that both of your c9 gunners were using the old webbing with 4 c9 pouches. Did it do the job, did they say they would prefer having a real tac vest? Because the webbing has a pretty limited ammount of pouches that can be fitted on it. Also, do you know if there is any way to buy one there at the american PX, or if there is a PX at all on Nathan Smith Camp? (thats where were going)
> I found myself one of these: http://www.opticsplanet.net/issak-60-saw-gunner-flotation-kit.html# and Im thinking about spending the 300$ on it. since my life, and the life of my squad might depend on it. Also, Id like to know what you think about the Surfire flashlight used by the forces in A-stan. I found a nice one at the R. Nicholls here in Quebec but if the one given by the CF is worth it I wont be spending 140$ on it.
> 
> Im sorry for al those questions, but every information I can get on how it works over there (since our chain of command doesnt seems to be able to give us more then the minimum of information), might have an impact on how well I do my job. Thanks for your answer anyways. Anybody else who can give me anykind of usefull info is welcome also.



Arktis produces good gear and makes a vest especially for the 'Minimi'. I've worn their stuff before, although not the C9 vest, and it's first rate

http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/specialforces/vestsmilitary.htm

Although it's UK based there is a dealer in the US viz: http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/dealers.htm


----------



## Alex22

Thank you very much for the info guys... very usefull.


----------



## westie47

I know Tiger Tactical makes a C9 specific vest. If you want to custom build one, go with Tactical Tailor. They are moderately priced, extremely well-made and durable. You can get it in CadPat (TW) from Dave's Surplus in Vancouver. They have a website. If you want to go a little higher quality, check out HSGI (High Speed Gear Inc). They are making chest rigs in Cadpat AR, very good quality. For about $240 US you can get a Split-front MAV, X-harness, 4 x SAW pouches and hydration carrier from Tactical Tailor. Good price, never let you down. When you call Dave's Surplus, ask for Martin or Colin.  Cheers.


----------



## KevinB

Buddy with a Tiger Tactical vest






Jay's Tactical Tailor rig and add on's


----------



## Alex22

Infidel. I want that first Tiger Tactical vest. But I couldnt find it on the website... Im gonna do a deeper search but if you could get me an actual link to the vest on the website, or wherver your buddy bought it. It would be amazing....


----------



## PhilB

Your google foo sucks!lol

heres the link

http://www.tigertactical.com/productlist-03.php

its the first item on the list. The military ops vest and you want the c9 panels


----------



## daftandbarmy

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> Most of our fighting was done at far closer range then I think any of us anticipated. Generally at the longer ranges, 200-300m, it became more about suppression and 'fixing' the enemy. 5.56 was more then sufficient, and we had other weapons to augment this of course.
> 
> It was great for close in fighting, between compounds, and in room clearing it did just fine. The age old arguement about a heavier round vs a lighter one will always happen. For me, the 5.56 got it done fine



boondocksaint,

Any other suggestions on some simple training/ drills we can practise at the coy/pl/sect level? e.g., Anything that will build up our close range fighting skills that you've either already done in training, or is definitely not taught in our usual courses/ pre-deployment workups. 

Cheers.


----------



## boondocksaint

Gunfighter-gunfighter-gunfighter program- 

it saves lives, new stance, improved IA drills, and meant for fighting at close proximity, saved us in Sangin


----------



## vonGarvin

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> Gunfighter-gunfighter-gunfighter program-
> 
> it saves lives, new stance, *improved IA drills*, and meant for fighting at close proximity, saved us in Sangin


You mean "cock, cant, look" doesn't cut it?  LOL  (j/k)

In all seriousness, however, I've only seen a very small part of the gunfighter.  From ALL accounts (here, in Canada, from guys who hadn't even deployed yet), it is a VAST improvement over the 'old' programme.  I can't wait to get off of this course I'm on and get into the weeds again.


----------



## silentbutdeadly

Here in our Btln we cannot stress how much Gunfighter improve us all before we went over. Yeah it hurts like hell when you first start doing it, but coming from a guy that needed it and used it when shyte went down, it works. Its a program that we should start using on BIQ's, so the soldiers can get the muscle memory needed to hold the different stance and such.


----------



## Garett

I think Gunfighter is called PWT 4 now, meaning its been officially adopted.  A couple of our UOIs had to run some TF-1-07 engineers through it a few weeks ago, I think all Cbt Arms types have to shoot PWT4 before they go over.  They were out at the range from Mon to Fri doing it, it takes a significant amount of ammo to do the work up before the test.  Sounds like the way to go though.


----------



## geo

well... it's about time for them to break out the ammunition for everyone to train on.

The bogus range qualifications on next to nothing ammo was a crying disgrace.


----------



## orange.paint

The CQB guys were telling us on MOD 6 the gunfighter program was most likely going to take over from the PWT as the annual testing.I only had a slight introduction (1 day 9mm paint) but found it great.As a armoured guy who don't get to do cool stuff like that where I'm posted,I thought it was great.

The instructor's course sounds intense also.


----------



## darmil

A few weeks ago we were told that the PWT3 is now like 600 rounds and the gunfighter is part of it.I agree it hurts like hell, but better by far.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Gotta agree with the comments on cheaping out on ammo and cheesy range practises (is the old PWT 3 really worth the effort?). If our country can afford a couple billion $ on ships and aircraft etc we should at least spend a few pennies on enough ball ammo to make sure that our people at the sharpest end come back alive, and that the bad guys don't.


----------



## warchild

I was BDS PL WO for the tour.  We trained a little different for the tour than most.  Here is what I would go over with your guy's.

Shooting- Shoot at unknown ranges without berms.  We shot allot on the bermless ATS rge in Ed.  This taught and forced the guy's to judge distance and to make correction's off splash.  I also gave them 7 mags but 10 boxes of ammo.  I had them in Ptl formations walking down to the tgt's then yelled contact. (Watching the battle drills).  The reaction to contact (Effective fire) then there wining the fire fight was what I was watching for.  We also did it with full kit including rucks.  I wanted to see how they would "Doff" there kit and what they did with it.  What I was looking for at the end of this was, did they get behind there rucks, did they suppress the tgt well enough, communicate with each other i.e. so the fire teams did not take there kit off at the same time and, when they ran there mags dry did they communicate that they were going to reload.  I found this one most interesting because some guy's after 4-6 mags new they were low.  They would pass on to his fire team that he would reload.  Some tm's had there guy that was reloading do there's at the same time.  Others basically covered and when he was done, would start to re bomb himself.  Different way's of skinning the cat for sure.  One thing I learned as well was the Gerber tool was totally useless on your belt for your pants.  One of the guy's had a hard stoppage and tried to get to his Gerber but it was buried under his flakjacket and shirt.  We made it a practice to put it on your kit where you could get to it.  Another thing we came up with to help with the low shot was to put your range on your C79 scope to 300 so that when you shot your first few off to the tgt (Almost all first shots from an unknown rge were low) this would give you a better and more accurate shot to hit.
Gunfighter- This is hands down the best thing we have done in the last few years.  The gun fighter program teaches wpn's handling, muscle memory and most of all confidence.  We had no issues with any wpn handling in any TIC.  Infact if you watch the CF combat camera footage you will see the Pl fighting very close to each other with barrels all over the place beside each other.  The gunfighter got rid of the "RANGEISMS and WATCISM's".  The Pl was used to having barrels very close.  Try doing that before gunfighter and you might of had somebody yelling at you for barrel drift.  We were very comfortable and that helps in a TIC.
Counter ambush- As a rule and as a min we always did the AUSSIE for rehearsals.  I felt this helped in Sangin when we were hit.  Also the FAN worked very well.  You will notice that is what BDS did with his crew.  The TB were not expecting us to turn and fight which is exactly what we did.  If you can get away with it do it live.
M-203- Get as much as you can and practice lots.  We had gunners that could put a rnd through a "Yoda door" from 300 m.
M-72-We didn't get to practice with them too much before we left.  In fact I might be having a APS moment but' I don't think we had any.
Practice IED IA's.  If you don't have the drill or have not heard about it we will have to go off line due to OPSEC.

These are just a few things beside all the norm such as FA, comms etc.  FA though should be hammered home hard.  And not the "where does it hurt".  The last thing I will recommend is right out of the box.  Go onto google and search for the terrorist footage of IED's, ambush's and them just acting tough.  Burn them to disk and take them in to your guy's.  Make them watch it first.  Don't say why they are watching it other than "Check this stuff out".  While they are watching it watch them.  Look for the ones that are visibly disturbed or all of a sudden very quiet.  You might want to look at them a bit harder for pre deployment.  The other benefit now is to ask the group' "On that first IED, who saw the aiming mark, who saw the firing postion".  This will not only start to get your guy's accustom to seeing IED's but it will also help them with the looking for the signs of an IED.  After the 2 IED's that my PL hit and the one that I drove over, there were sign's of it been there that we missed.  This will help but don't tell them that's what you are doing.  It sinks in better after they have watched it and missed the sign's like the telephone pole or the obvious rock etc.
Night fighting- In WX I had the PL go through a big obstical crse with lanes and tunnels etc to firing points and a grenade toss at the end.  This was done at night with only MNV's on.  This taught them to trust thieir equip and also depth perseption etc.  If their nod's were not on right or adjusted wrong they had a hard time.  I made it a section compition and let them have fun with it.  This was dry as hip pocket training but could be done live. The winners got a case of beer.  The grenade toss was into a burn barrel and it was a glow stick.  This activity I found was very effective.

I will post more later if anyone wants them.


----------



## paracowboy

warchild said:
			
		

> I will post more later if anyone wants them.


well...YEAH!


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## westie47

Keep it coming...


----------



## Garett

I've condensed all the lessons learned posts in this thread into a Word Document.  If you want a copy send me a PM with your @forces.gc.ca e-mail address.


----------



## ArmyRick

Warchild, keep the expiriences coming. We all learn from this.


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## Garett

There should be an actual Lessons Learned part of this board.


----------



## MMB

Greetings all,
This would be my first post here. I'm a Norwegian myself who has done just about four years in our armed forces. I worked with some of you guys in Kabul back in 2005 just before your Recce guys headed back down to Kandahar again, and i just missed you in Kosovo in 2001. Nowadays I'm stuck in Mazar-E-Sharif doing positively nothing, which isn't what most of us folks would like. Politicians i guess...
I was referred to this thread by a colleague of mine the other day and i must say, this is the most informative of AAR's and firsthand accounts I've yet to read. The way we've trained and operated has it's similarities and differences from what is written here, but it definitely help getting it firsthand from the lower ranks who actually was there doing the hard work. I'm not trying to hide the fact that we don't have the combat experience the Commonwealth and the US has, and it shows both in what we do and how we do it - not saying we downright suck though. This thread will be forwarded and, insh'Allah, be put in use by someone up the food chain.
We hear some of the stuff that's going on down there, but nothing as detailed as this. My thoughts and best wishes go out to all coalition members who are down south pulling the fight while the rest of them are cuddled up nicely in the safe spots. I hope to be able to work alongside you guys again some day, it seems a helping hand is really needed down there.
If you ever, for whatever reason, find yourself up north at Camp Marmal outside Maz come to the Norwegian compound and I'll buy you a Coke and a bag of M&Ms. Until then,

Take care, stay safe and bring it to them,
Marcus


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## daftandbarmy

Please sir, I want some more


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## boondocksaint

Hello, MMB, I've been to Norway twice to train, a unique experience. I also witnessed warchild re-decorate a hotel lobby in Tromso with a 10ft polar bear. We then had to leave...

Stay safe over there


----------



## warchild

Hello all.  Here is some more.  This is a long one.  And yes I was attacked by a 10ft STUFFED polar bear in Tromso.  I was really drunk on Mac beer.

As a PL WO I was very protective of my PL (My crew).  I felt that this was not going to be a Bosnia tour and that allot of leadership was going to be needed to be demonstrated.  I would highly recommend and stress that for all the leaders reading this that your Tm, Sect, Pl, and yes your coy is your only family that matters over there.  By demonstrating to your crew that you will back them no matter what, it will demonstrate to your crew that they can trust you.  Trust as well as respect is earned and at no time should it be demanded.  This will build a tight crew who will no matter what watch each others back when the rnds are flying no matter what part of the tour you are in.  I was very fortunate to have a PL that all trusted within our crew even though there was times when there was that squabbling going on.  This would be my highest bit of advice and if you were going to walk away with anything from this, it would be just that.

Comms-  We used a few different styles of comms.  The 117 was the best.  Everyone from the Pte to the Coy comd must be good to go with it.  When our pri PL sig guy was hit in an IED, we had to switch around a few guy's to get a new PL sig.  If we were all as good as the guy hit it would not of been such big shoe to fill.  Another thing is get used to getting away from VP when you are out on your own.  We never used C/S that much unless we were on higher to the TOC.  Even our coy comd eventually got away from C/S'ing to death everything.  Again when the lead is flying plain text is best.  It saves time and it is less confusing saying "C, move up on the left and take those hut's out".  Now saying that we had a few times when face to face link ups were 100% more practical.  In the Sangin scrap we were close enough to do this.  It was more practical and less confusing and doesn't tie up the net.  I would suggest to all to work that way when you can.

PB (Patrol base)- We did allot of mech PB's and dismounted in the hills.  Stand off should be your only concern.  Dominate the high ground always.  Dismounted ops- Don't worry if it is not the circle or triangle.  We never while dismounted used the standard formation.  Just worry about getting up as high as you can, have eyes on 360 and put out claymores.  We always did this no matter what or who was with us.  Remember you have to be flexable and do not worry about "That's how we did it on the 6B or phase trg".  Those types of attitudes will hurt you.  In the hills between Feb and April it is cold at night.  I carried a snugpak sleeping bag good for minus 10, bi vi bag because it will rain, toque, smog (I never went anywhere without it) rats, water and ammo.  Point to note for ammo.  I divided everything between the PL.  As we got to our PB if req we would drop it by my spot i.e. 7,62 everything else the sect took up to their spots.  Note: When the boys put their extra ammo in the rucks, make sure it is in the outside pockets or pouches.  Do not let them put the extra ammo (7.62, claymores etc) inside their kit.  When you get into a scrap they cannot start digging into the kit.  As an SOP on the outside.  We had ANA with us on a few tabs.  They need to be given strict direction on PB occupation.  I learned that one the hard way. For water on average had 10 liters with us.  We had pure tabs just in case.  Our medic also gave us the high speed electrolytes.  We needed it.  If you are going into the hills on a tab, get the high speed electro. I would drink 1 liter with it then one with out it.  For rats if you can get by with just the meal pack, some tuna in a can and lots of trail mix and Hooah bars (KAF has them in the KBR kitchens to take) go with it.  It will save you weight and garbage.  Make sure your terp to has a good ruck when you pick him up.  Not the bed roll..  The first time we took ours into the hills he had an old gym bag that looked like it was given to him from Goodwill.
For mech we used the triangle.  That never changed but the spacing could depending on the ground.  Try not to use the same one over and over.  I would say twice is enough.  Any more and they will have it ranged.  Set up your 60 mm and test fire it.

KAF life- Try and get a coy web site made up prior to departing.  When you get there have a guy walk about with a video camera or just a camera.  Put it on the web site.  Obviously I don't need to talk about OPSEC.  I know but somebody out there will sound off.  This will let the loved ones back home see where you live 2 days out of the month and will relax them a bit.  They will have a visual on your surroundings instead of making one up in their heads.
DVD players- Buy a good one here with a gasket type seal such as a sport one.  The dust will wreak cheap ones.
MP3- Again buy here.  PX is expensive but good in case you fry yours trying to hook it up to the TCCS.
Laptop- It was great but for me it was just a big DVD player or for porn.
Rear link- Make sure the guy's loved ones have the rear party phone # and web link.  If your loved one is going to visit somebody over the weekend or for an extended period of time, make sure they tell the rear party.  If something happens to one of your guy's and his loved on is visiting their mother in Ont, well she is going to find out on the news.  It happend.  Tell your crew to make sure they get that one.
Phones- Watch the guy that lives on the phone.  It will cause prob's when you are out on an extended op and Johnny hasn't kept up his phone calls home.

Cultural trg- I personally thought this was a wast of time.  I learned more from our terps over there than anything.  Pointy talk cards are great to.

IA's- Use them, practice them and remember that they are just IMMEDIATE ACTION DRILLS.  Resist the urge or push to "What if everything".  We kept a standard IA drill for IED's, ambush, and ptl's.  If we came across something better or if we learned a hard lesson due to combat then we would change it up and practice it over again until we got it.  I always used the round robin approach too with this.  I don't have all the answers.  Bash it around and get it out to your crew for feedback.

Orders-  I have to say allot of the time there was min orders and less battle prep.  I have to say though and this is on hind site that we did allot of high speed stuff with min time to prep.  Again I go back to my 1st para about a good crew.  This helped more than I will ever know.  All you need is a concept of ops and intent and you can do anything with a tight crew.  Make your plan, give frag orders and let your section sort it out.  Again I had some very strong talent in my crew.  They new there stuff and I let them run with it.  I always trusted them to do there best in the time allowed.  Don't get rapped up with 2 hr long orders.  Maybe at the beginning but after you feel comfortable, trust your judgement.

These are lessons that I learned being a PL WO and for awhile as PL Comd. Ours got IED'd and evac'd.  I was the dude for 2 months.   BDS covered allot if not the most important ones and did it very well.  His experience's should be required reading before deploying.  I have to stress that it is a sect scrap over there in a PL context.  These lessons learned are from my perspective and allot of them may seem rash if not "Out side the box".  I hope these will be of help to at least one other person going over.


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## daftandbarmy

All very good stuff. Thanks. By my guesstimate you're subsidizing Canada's war effort by at least 500 -600 bucks (chestrig, shemag, sleeping bag etc). How much cash are people dishing out for their own gear?


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## KevinB

Yeah but all the shiny stuff work in Canada too...
  Provided you dont have an asshat CSM (serving guys dont comment   )


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## daftandbarmy

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Yeah but all the shiny stuff work in Canada too...
> Provided you dont have an asshat CSM (serving guys dont comment   )



By that I assume you mean 'Craphat'. Out-standing. Haven't used that term in... well... days now


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## MJP

To add to WarChilds post from a Sect Commander/2IC perspective for training.

Comms- I can’t stress enough comms.  Everyone should be able to do all the basic programming on the CI box as well as on the radio itself.  It’s not hard as long as everyone stays current but it will help you when your comms goes to crap and you need to trouble shoot in a hurry.

Designate a section signaler and make sure he is up to speed on everything and is constanting liasing with the Pl signaler for the comms plan.  My guy didn’t even have the course but after a month over there was just as good as the Pl signaler when it came to crypto loading and other malfunctions.  ID him early in the training and get him working on it as often as possible.

At every CI box that had a headset we put a list of channels with who it would contact on it.  As well we made up reports and return cards so if you got flustered or couldn’t find yours it was right there so you could call in anything and everything.  

M203 gunners-  During pretraining get them firing as often as possible.  Once you get over there you should get the opportunity and if you don’t ask for it to fire a couple boxes of M203 each.  Get your guys good with the M203.  As warchild mentioned most guys could hit a door at 300 at the end of the tour.  I watch one of my M203 gunners hit a designated target on a hill top from the air sentry hatch while the vehicle was moving.  M203 is a powerful tool used right to suppress and kill the enemy

Rifle and ranges-  Its already been stressed that gunfighter is crucial and saves lives while overseas.  But some other training to do is make sure your guys are extremely comfortable with adjusting their own PAQ4/2s for night fighting.  Not to mention get them use to using the NVGs.  As well get them use to only seeing part of a target and hitting it.  Very rare to get a full body shot away.  Do a range that has enemy targets hiding behind or screen by various objects.  And run them through it.  We did it on a conventional range by making them move left to right and turn into the enemy find the exposed part and fire.  Do this by day and by night.

Vehicles and vehicle weapons system- All soldiers should be able to start up and emergency drive all the vehicles that your Pl operates over there.  As well they should be able to use and fire all weapons systems as well as be able to clear any stoppages with Gwagon or RG31 (C6 and .50).   25mm is a bit different but regardless all soldiers in a section should know how to operate the turret and fire the cannon of they have to.  This is also so they can conduct Ops and sentry from the turret utilizing the thermal and the night sight on the turret.  

More as I think of it……


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## pipesnake

I'm curious, did you guys have any snipers attached? If so did they prove useful? If not do you think they would have?


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## boondocksaint

Attached as needed, and yes, VERY useful.


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## RHFC_piper

I just wanted to comment on gear;

This is the gear I carried into Panjwayi.





Chest rigs are worth (in my oppinion) every dime. Same with verticle foregrips. 

During work up, we argued that we would rather have rigs that can carry at least 10 full mags up front and accessable (this one carries 12 up and 4 more in a detatchable bottom piece) and the answer we got was "you will never have or need 10 mags".. I had 15 mags and I used 4 in 2 1/2 hours of fighting on Sept 3rd.  When I talked to a few other guys who went into panjwayi, they said they went through 8 to 10.  The need is there.

Also, Dump-pouches are very usefull. I used mine for shotgun shells and empty mags. (not at the same time). When I showed off my Afghan pics to the higher-ups in my home unit (RHFC) they showed a great deal of interest in the acquisition of dump-pouches for the troops, as well as training on how to use them effectively.


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## Haggis

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> When I showed off my Afghan pics to the higher-ups in my home unit (RHFC) they showed a great deal of interest in the acquisition of dump-pouches for the troops, as well as training on how to use them effectively.



This is a very encouraging statement.  Hopefully other leaders in other units will also be receptive to new TTPs.


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## RHFC_piper

Haggis said:
			
		

> This is a very encouraging statement.  Hopefully other leaders in other units will also be receptive to new TTPs.



Well... to continue the encouragement; the CO of my unit has hinted that he wants to meet with our deployed troops (10 of them) when he returns to discuss changes in unit training. He is also in Kandahar right now.

It seems asthough new TTPs and info from AAR (even right on the battlefield) are being considered greatly. Perhaps changes will be made for the better... and all it takes is major combat.


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## ArmyRick

Who ever says you are not going to go through 5-10 mags that fast is not clued into the concept of truly winning the fire fight.

I finally was able to watch the videos on youtube.com and I am in the firm beleif that kit needs to be built around the infantry soldiers needs first. I beleive we should change and upgrade the TAC vest now before we get to far along in that project.


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## daftandbarmy

Agreed, but don't hold your breath!


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## vonGarvin

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I beleive we should change and upgrade the TAC vest now before we get to far along in that project.


I am a convert (thank you, I-6), and I am of the opinion that the TAC vest not be upgraded, but *scrapped * in favour of a system that is more capable of providing our soldiers with the needs they deserve.


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## Garett

What are the most popular/best privately purchased chest rigs and vests?  How supportive have CSMs and RSMs been of using non-issue kit?  From what I've heard its a no-go with TF1-07.


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## Michael OLeary

From another current thread:



			
				paracowboy said:
			
		

> ..... we are currently allowing troops to purchase and carry their own equipment in theatre. And TF 1-07 is spear-heading a test of various chest-rigs. 3 PPCLI is currently spear-heading an initiative whereby every soldier will carry 10 mags at all times.


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## Pte_Martin

Piper Do you have any more pics of your vest? Also Where did you get yours if you don't mind me asking how much did it set you back?


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## RHFC_piper

Here's all the pics of the rig I have. (besides the one I posted)





My hero Pic.





overhead... note all the mags.

The one I bought was the HSGI Denali.  The best place to get one is Daves Army Surplus, as they are the only ones who have the Denali in Arid CADPAT.

They also carry other HSGI Rigs which are equally useful. Including a Molly Rig (Warlord V4) which is very usefull for C9 Gunners.

As for how they were accepted.  We wern't allowed to wear them during work up, and we were told if we wore them overseas, the RSM would personally take them and burn them. But, just before Panjwayi, we were told to wear them if we had them.

IMPORTANT NOTE 1: Chest rigs and other personal gear is worn AT YOUR OWN RISK. If your personally owned gear gets damaged or destroyed, the army won't pay for it. If you get blood on it, it will be burned, like any other contaminated gear.

IMPORTANT NOTE 2: If you use a rig, it had better be able to carry all the same gear your TAC Vest will, and in relatively the same places (MED KIT), or it will be useless when you get wounded. 

IMPORTANT NOTE 3: Plate Carriers are not Ballistic vests. And they wont let you use one instead of a Ballistic Vest.

IMPORTANT NOTE 4: If your rig becomes a kit bomb cause you bought a cheaply built one, you will be told to use your TAC Vest... Quality is very important, as it will save your life.

I hope this helps.


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## daftandbarmy

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> Attached as needed, and yes, VERY useful.



Did you practise working with snipers during the work up training, or did you have to figure it all out in theatre?


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## Garett

> But, just before Panjwayi, we were told to wear them if we had them.



Gotta love that.



> ..... we are currently allowing troops to purchase and carry their own equipment in theatre. And TF 1-07 is spear-heading a test of various chest-rigs. 3 PPCLI is currently spear-heading an initiative whereby every soldier will carry 10 mags at all times.



I think he's referring to the 3VP Coy with TF 1-07, not the 2RCR BG.  I could be wrong.


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## paracowboy

Garett said:
			
		

> I think he's referring to the 3VP Coy with TF 1-07, not the 2RCR BG.  I could be wrong.


I am. DLS actually listened to certain senior NCOs, and got C Coy issued various chest rigs to 'trial' for him. That POS tac-vest is soon to be history, to be replaced with either the 'winning' chest rig, or more likely, a series of options. Troopie gets to decide what works for him. What a crazy idea. So crazy, it just...might...work.


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## RHFC_piper

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I am. DLS actually listened to certain senior NCOs, and got C Coy issued various chest rigs to 'trial' for him. That POS tac-vest is soon to be history, to be replaced with either the 'winning' chest rig, or more likely, a series of options. Troopie gets to decide what works for him. What a crazy idea. So crazy, it just...might...work.



What would be really nice to see for the CF, and what is in practice in a lot of US units, is having a gear allotment so troops can select the gear they want and the unit covers the cost.  Of course, guidelines would have to be in place, and all purchases would have to be approved, but it would give units the flexibility to kit up troops with usefull gear. Instead of a C9 gunner carrying only one box in his tac vest, cause his other utiity pouch has to have his med kit in it, and the rest of his ammo in a small pack, they could have molly pouches on a rig where they are comfortable for him to reach during combat.

The US uses Molly ballistic vests, and when we talked to them over in Afghanistan, they told us that they don't even use their issued LBV's / Webbing, they just molly stuff to their body armour... MAYBE ANOTHER GOOD IDEA!!!

Either way, the Vest is a POS and I can't wait till it is out of the system.  Good idea at the time, when we were peacekeeping, but now it's a whole new world. I personally think that the CoC should be listening to the Cpls, MCpls, and Sgts who have the foot on the gound (Combat Arms) and use their suggestions, even more so.

Also, if troops are going to wear the gear in theater, they should be training with it in work up.  When they finally let us wear the gear, I spent a few days adopting various firing positions with the Rig on, testing and adjusting, and when I was comfortable enough, I started practicing changing mags... Over and over and over.  When in battle on September 3rd, it became simple instinct to change mags...Gross moter skills; good to practice.


----------



## paracowboy

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I personally think that the CoC should be listening to the Cpls, MCpls, and Sgts who have the foot on the gound (Combat Arms) and use their suggestions, even more so.
> 
> Also, if troops are going to wear the gear in theater, they should be training with it in work up.


well, now you're just talkin' crazy! The troops at the sharp end don't know what they need. It takes someone with years of experience in doing nothing to truly decide something that important. What are you, new?


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## vonGarvin

someone else somewhere made a sports analogy (I love sports analogies, by the way): look at hockey players.  Yes, they all have the same colour helmets, etc, but their individual gear varies.  Just as you would not dress a forward like a goalie, why dress a C9 gunner like a rifleman.


----------



## paracowboy

von Garvin said:
			
		

> someone else somewhere made a sports analogy


boondocksaint. And he was spot-on. And that is the way I believe we're going to go. Either with the DLS's overt blessing and push, or by having a blind eye turned to troops doing it themselves (which is just cowardice to my mind. "You can do it, troops, just not in Canada where my boss can see."  : )


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## vonGarvin

paracowboy said:
			
		

> boondocksaint. And he was spot-on. And that is the way I believe we're going to go. Either with the DLS's overt blessing and push, or by having a blind eye turned to troops doing it themselves (which is just cowardice to my mind. "You can do it, troops, just not in Canada where my boss can see."  : )


Agreed that BDS was spot-on.  Hopefully it gets official blessing.  I mean, in 2003, had someone told me that tanks would be deployed one day to Afghanistan, let alone that Canadians would see combat, I would have said that they were flaming mad!


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## warchild

This is an issue to every professional soldier.  Anyone that is going over I would hope would believe in more is better.  Speaking of Hope, myself and BDS found ourselves in front of him at the beginning of our tour over a miss quote in the paper on kit.  He did not believe in the 10 mag argument.  At the end of our tour he had put an extra mag carrier on his kit.  People who don't know or have not experenced something will defualt to what they know when confronted with the unknown.  Also to be fair he did allow us to wear whatever we wanted over there but in Canada his boss told him no. That is the first issue (Wait out) I personally believe that for every mission your kit should be tailored towards it.  (Battle prep) As somebody has mentioned the yanks have MOLLE.  At the start of our tour I had 2 different rigs.  One for the mountains and one for the LAV.  In the hills between Feb to Apr, it rains and is cold.  Snivel gear is a must.  I found that my rig from Tiger Tac (I am in it on their web page), was good for that.  When we went into a more mech role after Apr I found the Tactical Tailor chest rig was all I needed.  When we went to Panjwai and Helmand for M thrust I went to a plate carrier with MOLLE on it and put 2 pouches from my Tac Tailor with my  FA pouch.  In all I had 3 different rigs over the tour all equally functional.  So in my humble opinion a MOLLE carrier with the adaptability to be whatever you want it to be whether it is a C-9, C-6, or C7 with a shotgun, is the right direction to go.  Now for the wait out bit....When I was doing some range work with the RCR that relived us I asked why they still had on the Tac Vest.  There reply was that there RSM said no way to the chest rig's etc.  My reply was "I bet he will change his tune once he is in a TIC for a few hrs".  Obviously the powers that be had the intestinal fortitude to change their policy for the good of the troops.  Now lets take that one further step.  I have herd for along time the saying "Train as you fight"  Well before this year there hasn't been to much fighting.  Now as we as a military are having combat veterans coming home, I am wondering if we will hear that saying much anymore.  As it has been mentioned in other threads here on this topic, about not been able to wear non standard kit because the big boss might see it should now be a thing of the past.  I know if I was going over and we had the parade of big bosses coming in to tell us how proud they are of us, I for one would fire my hand into the air and ask the big question on everyones mind.  As for the DLR issue of trial gear, why not give the same kit to a few different units at the same time.  I have done a few trials in my time and I have always found that their gets to be a sort of underground movement about a certain piece or type.  If DLR issued the rigs to a few different units both mech and light (We are all moving to that sooner than we think) I believe it would benefit us better in the long run.  In the mean time though I hope the big bosses allow the guy's doing work up to wear what they are going to scrap with over there to be used to it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> The US uses Molly ballistic vests, and when we talked to them over in Afghanistan, they told us that they don't even use their issued LBV's / Webbing, they just molly stuff to their body armour... MAYBE ANOTHER GOOD IDEA!!!



What's old is new! We trialed IDF body armour with webbing items attached to it by various loops back in the 80's during a Reforger ex in Germany. Of course we all liked it, but knew we weren't getting it.


----------



## RHFC_piper

Colin P said:
			
		

> What's old is new! We trialed IDF body armour with webbing items attached to it by various loops back in the 80's during a Reforger ex in Germany. Of course we all liked it, but knew we weren't getting it.



Unfortunately, those 2 statements seem to be trends in the military; 'What's old is new' and 'We all liked it, but weren't getting it'.

Does anyone know roughly how much a LBV (tac vest) costs? I used to have a price list, but lost it. I just wanted to compair prices between my Chest Rig and the issued LBV.


----------



## vonGarvin

The Librarian may be able to find out.

(Now, pedantic mode on: the "LBV" is that old jean rigged thingy worn famously (infamously?) in bosnia.  The TV is the Tac vest, currently issued to the Land Force)


----------



## silentbutdeadly

I remember when we first got there some of the 173rd boys had IDF rigs and loved them, but they went through the same issues with kit at the beginning of there tour. By the the 2nd mth they were told they also could wear whatever they wanted. There was some talk that the DND were going to buy like 400 rigs for use over in Kandahar, so when you get your helmet cover and such you would also get a " off the rack" rig. We will see i guess.


----------



## westie47

After talking to some of our guys that are on TF 1-07, they said they are getting Arktis Sigma vests. There are three versions coming - rifleman, M203, and C9. We'll see. I don't know why they went with Arktis, but it's better than the TV. I'll know more when the guys come back home for Christmas leave.

On another note, I firmly belive that if a guy is allowed to wear his own rig overseas, then he should be able to do his work-up with it as well. Two words: muscle memory. All officers should be made to read On Combat and Sharpening The Warrior's Edge.


----------



## vonGarvin

westie47 said:
			
		

> All officers should be made to read On Combat and Sharpening The Warrior's Edge.


I think that's the problem: we read too much!  Check out the Army Electronic Library: trust me, those are "required readings".  Reading is fine, but come on, experience and knowledge doesn't always come from a book.


----------



## RHFC_piper

von Garvin said:
			
		

> I think that's the problem: we read too much!  Check out the Army Electronic Library: trust me, those are "required readings".  Reading is fine, but come on, experience and knowledge doesn't always come from a book.



I'm incline to agree.  Books Like 'On Combat' and 'On Killing' are quite good reads, but if a command element wants good info on combat and killing their better off talking to thier troops with experience.  As good as books are, more can be accomplished with a good AAR.  Leaves less up to interpretation and cuts to the heart of the issue.


----------



## Haggis

I'm what many consider a "borderline old-school" sergeant major.  (A certain LCol in The RCR has referred to me as a dinosaur.)  That being said, this may surprise some folks, but I'm all for using what works on operations.  

I agree that the TV, as a stand-alone load carrying device, is a POS.  But coupled with the Small Pack System (SPS), it's passable.

I also agree with:



			
				RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> IMPORTANT NOTE 1: Chest rigs and other personal gear is worn AT YOUR OWN RISK. If your personally owned gear gets damaged or destroyed, the army won't pay for it. If you get blood on it, it will be burned, like any other contaminated gear.
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTE 2: If you use a rig, it had better be able to carry all the same gear your TAC Vest will, and in relatively the same places (MED KIT), or it will be useless when you get wounded.
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTE 4: If your rig becomes a kit bomb cause you bought a cheaply built one, you will be told to use your TAC Vest... Quality is very important, as it will save your life.



I don't agree with the age old adage "If the Army wanted you to have (insert item name) it would be issued to you."  Our Army has survived on a shoestring budget, repairing equipment with gun tape and baler twine, for far too long. That, in my opinion is what has led us to this type of mentality where our kit is manufacurted by the lowest cost-compliant bidder.

On that note, I also believe that for units not in the high readiness phase, the kit used in the field should be issued kit, particularly on courses.  The use of HSLD (High-Speed-Low-Drag) kit should be reserved for pre deployment training.


----------



## Big Red

Haggis said:
			
		

> On that note, I also believe that for units not in the high readiness phase, the kit used in the field should be issued kit, particularly on courses.  The use of HSLD (High-Speed-Low-Drag) kit should be reserved for pre deployment training.



This makes no sense.  Why would you train with equipment that you will never wear overseas.  That is "make believe".



			
				westie47 said:
			
		

> After talking to some of our guys that are on TF 1-07, they said they are getting Arktis Sigma vests. There are three versions coming - rifleman, M203, and C9. We'll see. I don't know why they went with Arktis, but it's better than the TV.



While an improvement over the TV...Arktis kit as of late sucks.  They make legacy rigs that haven't really evolved in the last 10 years.


----------



## Haggis

Big Red said:
			
		

> This makes no sense.  Why would you train with equipment that you will never wear overseas.  That is "make believe".



Because not every soldier can afford to wreck/wear out/lose a piece HSLD kit on a regular basis.  A young married Pte fresh out of DP1 may not be able to afford the same HSLD chest rig as his fire team partner single Cpl living in the shacks.  The length of pre deployment training gives the soldier more than enough time to break in and customize his deployment kit.


----------



## RHFC_piper

I just wanted to throw down some more quick points about kit (yet again.. I know, I should just shut up)

When we first had discussions with our CoC about the use of non-issue gear, one of their responces was "The TV is proven and troops have been using it for years."  I found 2 flaws with this; 1) I don't know who the TV was proven with or in what battle, but my understanding was there were problems with it noted even in ROTO 0 in Afghanistan... It really hasn't been around long enough to be "proven" and 2) (this is my fav) one of my fellow soldiers, after the previous statement was made, stuck up his hand and made a very good point; He said "We won WW2 with bolt action rifles. They're proven..."  The crowd went silent.

The CoC even threatened to reissue old (I'm sorry, its old to me) Webbing. And the responce was "Atleast its modular"

And my final point (for this post anyway), as Haggis stated; We've survived on a shoestring budget for ever, we make the kit work, and this is part of the problem. The sad part is that it is a circular problem. We (soldiers) get stuck with equipment which doesn't quite perform up to standard, we mildly complain about it, then soldier on with it. We don't just soldier on, we excell at our perfession with substandard gear, we make it work, we improvise, adapt and overcome. This works it's way up the CoC, and what starts as "jeez, this thing is a piece of ****, oh well, suck it up." turns into; "Well, the troops are doing a great job, that new gear must be working well for them." and because of this, we continue to get the same quality of gear, and we keep making it work.

Unfortunately, there is no simple way out of this cycle. We have to make this gear work, or people die.  Now that troops are buying their own gear, we see the system changing, but thats what it takes.  The Canadian Forces biggest asset, our ability to adapt and overcome, has always been the source of our kit deficiencies.



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> I also believe that for units not in the high readiness phase, the kit used in the field should be issued kit, particularly on courses.  The use of HSLD (High-Speed-Low-Drag) kit should be reserved for pre deployment training.



I agree 100%.  I had a discussion like this a week ago with my RSM. I had brought my operational kit into the armouries to show it off (I had just got it back) and he asked if I would be trying to order this stuff for the troops in the near future (I'm going to be running the kit shop again... heh)  We came to the agreement that chest rigs were not practical for Reserve soldiers who are not preparing to deploy or are deployed, so I've been talking troops out of buying them unless they're going operational.

It's all about time and place.


----------



## vonGarvin

Train as you fight.  Fight as you train.  We don't use FNs in Canada and then get issued C7s in theatre.  Should be the same with all kit.


----------



## Haggis

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Train as you fight.  Fight as you train.  We don't use FNs in Canada and then get issued C7s in theatre.  Should be the same with all kit.



Then "show me the money", VG.  In kit, in ammo, in POL etc. etc.  "Train as you fight" applies to all areas.  Wearing your HSLD kit while you yell "Bang! Bang!" at the OBUA site, well, you get the picture.

Kit aside for a minute, I'd like to drag this over towards shooting skills.  For BDS, SBD et al, who taught your gunfighter training?


----------



## vonGarvin

Haggis said:
			
		

> Then "show me the money", VG.  In kit, in ammo, in POL etc. etc.  "Train as you fight" applies to all areas.  Wearing your HSLD kit while you yell "Bang! Bang!" at the OBUA site, well, you get the picture.


I think we violently agree.  (Note I said "should", vice "must be")  Money is a factor, but there MUST be a way.  If you're going to do a job (eg: deploy battlegroups into combat), it's not time to argue financial frugality, IMHO.


----------



## westie47

I think that's the problem: we read too much!  Check out the Army Electronic Library: trust me, those are "required readings".  Reading is fine, but come on, experience and knowledge doesn't always come from a book.

I agree with learning from guys who were over doing the business. WHat I meant was that these books  really advocate the "train as you fight"  mentality. 

As for the Arktis kit, I agree that it is old school, however it is better than the TV. They just need to buy a few different off the shelf rigs as well.


----------



## boondocksaint

Daftandbarmy, we did a fair bit of work up with the snipers; coordination etc. And once deployed we generally had enough prep time prior to an Op, to coordinate our actions in detail with them. Plus We've all known each other for years so minimal bun fighting during prep was nice. Without getting into detail, they were an asset in ALL terrain, mountain and urban.

Haggis, our 3rd herd here in Edmonton taught us in the 1st the gunfighter program starting almost 2years ago. IIRC they improvised it from an American training program. Para can shed more light on that. 

It works. It's all about gross motor skill. When you are blinking sweat, your palms are slippery, and you have the worst cotton mouth ever, gross motor skills will save you. Particularly when the bulk of our fighting was within 50m, and usually closer. Warchild ( my WO ) snagged alot of ammo and range time for us, and once I taught the preliminary gunfighter program, we sat down and improvised some training based on what our American friends described to us. 

Ranges need to be fun. We did competitions, el Presidente drills, and SWAT fun stuff. Mixed in with everything else it gave our guys a sense of urgency and purpose on an otherwise dull " watch and shoot" range. We did this even here on the conventional range in Edmonton, mini-section attacks and the like. During the PWT we all wait to here the numbers from the tower, ' I passed? good nuff'

With the gunfighter program, and what can be done with it, troops actually want to shoot to live. And they need to. Like Warchild mentioned, I was hauled in front of 'da man' over some comments about kit. And then once 'da man' was in a TIC, he put on more mags. Score one for the little guy. 

As we were leaving KAF, I sold my rig to an RCR Cpl, it was still filthy, but it was in near perfect condition, it had without doubt contributed to saving my life in many fights, and I actually felt sentimental about selling it. I hope it is serving him as well as it served me, and he passess it on to the next guy.


----------



## RHFC_piper

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> As we were leaving KAF, I sold my rig to an RCR Cpl, it was still filthy, but it was in near perfect condition, it had without doubt contributed to saving my life in many fights, and I actually felt sentimental about selling it. I hope it is serving him as well as it served me, and he passess it on to the next guy.



I can damn near confirm that it is serving him well. By passing off your gear to us as we arrived, you helped show the CoC that the kit was needed.  By the time I arrived and worked my way through the meat grinder of briefings and kit issues, there was a pile of rigs at the CQ left by PPCLI's from the last tour for troops to use. 

There's probably enough rigs in Kandahar right now to outfit every tour that shows up, that is if the military purchased them from the troops... but I don't see that happening.


----------



## silentbutdeadly

Haggis,

The Gunfighter program was started  by 3VP and then passed on to us! U would have to ask them were they got it from, but i think it was the US Marines, but i could be wrong.


----------



## paracowboy

created from whole cloth by the former QMSI of 3VP, who was former DHTC for a while. (Like, it's entire existance, as I understand it.)


----------



## boondocksaint

He's the one who taught our serial, very intense fellow. He liked to yell at me  

'number four, WTF are you doing?!'.....1-2-3......crap, im number four


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

I was lucky enough to have the QMSI in question as my instructor on the range in Edmonton.  It was an outstanding training program that was a huge boost to morale and confidence in addition to the skills/techniques imparted.  I briefed a few grown-ups on it and I was told that it was being incorporated into the shooting program.  I don't know what shape or form it will take pan-Army, but we shall see.

p.s. My arms still ache when I remember...


----------



## Haggis

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> 'number four, WTF are you doing?!'.....1-2-3......crap, im number four



Note to BDS:  Don't be No. 4 again.   ;D



			
				Red_Five said:
			
		

> I was lucky enough to have the QMSI in question as my instructor on the range in Edmonton.  It was an outstanding training program that was a huge boost to morale and confidence in addition to the skills/techniques imparted.  I briefed a few grown-ups on it and I was told that it was being incorporated into the shooting program.  I don't know what shape or form it will take pan-Army, but we shall see.
> 
> p.s. My arms still ache when I remember...



I hear ya!  I had the opportunity to do the SWAT shotgun course with our local constabulary.  750 rounds in one day, at ranges of five to 25 metres, in every friggin' firing position you can imagine.  Thank God for body armour!


----------



## rampage800

Although I don't know officially, it wouldn't suprise me that 3 VP came up with this program on their own. I know a couple of years ago they had a few guys back from the Hill(3 VP was the DHTC farm team I think before CSOR) that were very proactive with this stuff.  Couple that with a pretty good CO (US SF qual as well) good things happen.
I know the CO put up the proposal to have his guys shoot the program before deploying and the Bde Comd at the time liked it so much he implemented the program to all deploying pers out of 1st Bde (not sure if it was everyone or just Cbt Arms types)
I've heard its going to be or already is adopted Army wide which is a good thing and with more qualified UOIs around the shooting should become more and more proficient(if it isn't already)
Anyhow just my 2 cents.


----------



## rampage800

sorry paracowboy, got excited and didn't read your post first, good ole Gibb eh.


----------



## paracowboy

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> He's the one who taught our serial, very intense fellow. He liked to yell at me


yelling wasn't bad. I can handle yelling. It was when he'd get all quiet and *look* at you that he was truly scary. If you looked him the eyes then, you could actually _see_ the cross-hairs in his pupils. 





			
				rampage800 said:
			
		

> good ole Gibb eh.


yep, that'd be him.


----------



## Haggis

All that is GOOD NEWS!!

We (the Infantry) don't shoot nearly enough.


----------



## Bartok5

Some further insight, if I may.

Correct - the five-day "Gunfighter" programme was developed by 3 PPCLI approx two years ago.  It was suggested as necessary by some of our BTDT personnel, and was enthusiastically endorsed/pushed by our CO.  The programme gained CLS-level recognition and support, to the extent that it is now considered a mandatory pre-deployment individual training requirement.  Watch for "Gunfighter" (or a version thereof) as a formal annex to the revised "Shoot to Live" publication which is now nearing completion by DAT Inf.

Incorrect - the "Gunfighter" programme did not originate from a U.S. source.  As PC noted, it was developed by former DHTC members of 3 PPCLI based on the shooting programme used at the Hill.  One could argue that the latter is actually an amalgam of international "best practices" (SAS, GIGN, GSG-9, USSF, etc) gleaned by the RCMP SERT and further developed by DHTC as the result of frequent training exchanges.  In fact, the basis of JTF's shooting techniques came from 22 SAS, who assisted the stand-up of the RCMP SERT (formerly known as HARP).  SERT then taught the first intake of JTF-2 as part of the hand-over process back in the early 1990s.  All of that to say, there was no direct linkage between "Gunfighter" and any current U.S. military shooting programme.  

A reflexive shooting package very similar to "Gunfighter" is also taught on the Urban Ops Instructor Course at CTC.  Guess who helped the Infantry School Urban Ops Cell develop the UOIC shooting package?  Yep - a DHTC training assistance team.  

Deploying units have been requesting DHTC assistance in developing reflexive CQB shooting skills for years.  Dating back to at least 2000, when 3 PPCLI had a DHTC Training Assistance Team in Wainwright to teach CQB skills and conduct live range work prior to OP PALLADIUM Roto 6.  Since then, we have simply formalized and internalized the reflexive shooting portion of CQB so that it can be done in-house without the need for direct DHTC assistance.  After all, it isn't rocket science - just a different mindset and shooting techniques than we've tended to focus on in the past.

A bit of background, FWIW.


----------



## boondocksaint

This is an AAR given to our Platoon prior to our deployment. These are the same Americans who came over to help evaluate us, and give pre-RIP advice. It's been de-OPSEC'd, the terps name Jeff is a fake, and the others as well. 

On XX October 2005 1st platoon D company 2/504 PIR was ordered to move to the Maywand district headquarters in Khandahar province, in order to secure the compound from recently fired ANP officers. When the platoon arrived SFC W, the platoon leader was informed by Captain T, the company commander that around 30 former ANP had occupied the new district headquarters, and were still armed. Further there had been reports that ACM had linked up with the ex-officers and were encouraging them to attack. CPT. T instructed SFC W to conduct a recon of the new district headquarters (NDHQ) to determine the enemy’s disposition and composition. Once the platoon was done they were to conduct a similar recon on two VCP’s that were reportedly still manned by the former officers. Upon completion the platoon was to return to the old district HQ (ODHQ). The remainder of the company was occupying the roofs of the ODHQ, providing over watch and observation of the target building 320 meters away.

     The platoon consisted of three gun trucks; RED 5; SFC W: TC, SPC G: .50 cal gunner, PFC N: driver, CPL L: medic. RED 3; SGT S: TC, SPC T: MK-19 gunner, PFC P: driver, R- S: DoD dog handler, RED 4; SGT C: TC, PFC H: MK-19 gunner, PFC M: driver, J LN terp.

     The platoon moved out to the north using blackout drive, crossing Highway 1 by the wadi bridge and then paralleling the wadi on an improved dirt road. They passed by the east gate of the new NDHQ and noted several personnel standing by the gate, but were unable to determine if they were armed. SFC W elected to move to the east in the wadi and set up an OP using thermals to scan the compound. The platoon stayed in position for almost 30 minutes scanning the compound, and noted at least ten personnel in the compound or on the roof. At this time SFC W elected to do an overt close target recce of the compound. He had a quick huddle with his NCOs and out lined his plan.

     The platoon moved out and occupied their positions. At the last minute R S ( dog handler)  volunteered to provide rear security. So the six men moved out; SFC W, SGT S, CPL L, Ryan, J-terp, and Sgt C. SFC W peered around the corner into the compound; to his right(north) was building 1(B-1), to his front right(NW) was the barracks(B-4), to his front right(west) was building 3(B-3) and to his left(south) was building 2(B-2). On B-1 he observed 4 men in civilian clothes, none appeared to be carrying any weapons, but he did observe a PKM machine gun set up and pointed to the south. The barracks had lights on and he could see several other men in civilian clothes moving inside the first room. The other buildings appeared to be unoccupied, nor did they have lights on. SFC W was about to call his terp forward when he was illuminated by a flashlight, he waved and the light clicked off, then one individual stepped off the barracks porch, carrying an AK-47, the guard on the roof yelled something to him, and the man turned and raised the AK at SFC W. SFC W stepped around the corner and immediately fired a controlled pair at the man, dropping the enemy, and he then began to suppress the PKM position. When his mag ran dry, he pulled back and ordered SGT S to fire 2 M-203 rounds at the lower windows of B-1. Almost simultaneously a heavy volume of fire was directed at the recon team from the barracks and the PKM on B-1. SFC W stepped out and threw a fragmentation grenade at the PKM, silencing it. 

SFC W then decided on a hasty assault. He ordered SGT C to call RED 5 forward, and get RED 3 and 4 turned around, He ordered Jeff to return to the truck and CPL L and R-S to provide rear security. SGT C informed them that there were enemy personnel on the roof of B-2, so SFC W again stepped out and threw a fragmentation grenade at the position, silencing it as well. SPC G and PFC N were already engaging hostiles prior to moving up, so SFC W told him to continue to engage and move the truck up at a crawl to the far edge of B-1. He then told SGT S and SGT C to stack on him. As the team moved forward the volume of enemy fire picked up considerably, so SFC W called RED 3 forward and told SGT C to position it to the right(south) flank of RED 5. He then brought RED 4 in to cover the north end of the compound.

 SPC G engaged a group of fighters hiding behind a hilux pick up, killing one, driving the rest off and setting the truck on fire in process. SFC W bounded forward to clear the two front rooms of B-1, as he was clearing them CPL L called out that there was enemy trying to flank so he engaged, hitting one. As RED 3s MK-19 began engaging the barracks an RPG flew out of the barracks over the roof of RED 5 and struck the north facing wall of B-2. SFC W told SGT S to engage with an AT-4, which silenced the RPG fire. SFC W then had SGT S and SGT C stack on him to clear B-1. He instructed SPC G and T to fire underneath the window frames of the barracks from left to right in order to flush the enemy out into the courtyard to the north so the could be engaged by RED 4’s MK-19. He also instructed CPL L and R-S to brief any incoming forces on the situation.

     The team had cleared four out of five rooms in B-1, when SGT S spotted a door under the stairs. He moved in to clear it with SGT C as his number 2, while SFC W covered the stairs. When SGT S entered, he was face to face with two ACM armed with AK-47s. Unable to raise his M-4, he immediately engaged both in hand to hand combat. SGT C was unable to get a shot, until SGT S threw the first ACM bodily from the closet, and into SGT C, who then fought his way clear and engaged the enemy at muzzle distance, killing him with three well placed shots, unfortunately his mag ran dry. Upon hearing SGT C shout “black!” SFC W moved to SGT S's aid. The second ACM had broken free of SGT S and was advancing on SGT C when SFC W got in between them and dropped him with one stroke from his tomahawk. The team quickly checked the enemy and ascertained they were KIA, slung the AK’s and restacked. Leaving SGT C to cover the stairs, SGT S and SFC W Cleared the last room in B-1. SGT S noticed movement outside in the ditch, one ACM appeared to be crawling towards B-1. SGT S called out in Pashto for the man to stop, and fire a shot into the dirt. When the man continued to advance, SFC W told SGT S to kill him, which he did with two well place rounds to the head at almost 50 meters(only during reconsolidation did the platoon find out that CPL L and SGT S had engaged the same man, CPL L hitting him in the chest, SGT S in the head.

     The team then cleared the steps and then the roof. SFC W broke left, SGT S and SGT C to the right. SFC W observed a ladder leaning on the wall of the stairwell, so he ordered his teammates back into the stair well, and threw a fragmentation grenade on the roof of the structure, he then climbed the ladder and checked the roof and finding it clear, called his teammates forward and secured the roof. SGT C disabled the PKM, while SGT S disabled the AK’s and then threw them all in the courtyard.
     SFC W called DELTA 6 with a sitrep and asked for two squads to clear B-2 and B-3. He then readjusted his gun trucks to more advantageous firing positions, and had RED 4’s gunner, PFC H dismount his M-249 SAW and come to the roof to establish an intermediate support by fire position. At this time COYETE 6(CA) led by MAJ Mc arrived, and SFC W had them position their M-240 armed gun truck to cover the interior wall on the east side. MAJ Mc had his terp and his LN guide begin calling out for the enemy to surrender. Shortly after their arrival LT G came up to the east gate with his 3rd squad. SFC W asked them to begin clearing B-2. He then received a call from RED 3’s gunner SPC T that rifle squad(1st) was approaching the south gate. SFC W had RED 3 move to the south to link up with 1st squad as they began systematically clearing the buildings just outside the south gate. SFC W had SGT S go down and take charge of RED 5 and coordinate it’s fire with BLUE’s movement. He was then informed that AH-64’s were on station, so pending the arrival of DELTA 6 he had them sweep north and west. He continued to direct the fire of his vehicles and was preparing to bring up AT-4s to reduce the last room of the barracks when DELTA 6 arrived and took charge.
      After assessing the situation DELTA 6 decided to employ tactical PYSOPS with their loud speaker to induce the enemy to surrender. By this time there was very little fire coming from the barracks, although ammo in the burning hilux continued to cook off. BLUE platoon had cleared B-2, B-3 and two buildings immediately outside the south gate. So far they had detained eleven personnel. After the PYSOPS broadcast four enemy surrendered to 3rd squad. SFC W directed SGT S to relieve 1st squad of their PUCs, while he himself setup a CCP and EPW area. He left SGT C and PFC H under tactical control of BLUE 6. About this time one enemy WIA was brought in with a sucking chest wound. CPL L began an immediate triage, and SFC W asked WHITE 5 to call in a 9 line medevac, while he established an HLZ in the wadi. 
    Gunships reported a large number of men to the north in a compound, so it was decided to bring over the district leader and police chief, as well as their recently fired counter parts to try to persuade the men in the compound to surrender. DUSTOFF 1-1 arrived on station and SFC Rand SFC W marked the HLZ. The EWIA and security escort were quickly loaded and airborne, with gunships as their escort back to KAF. SFC W and SGT C and PFC H and R-S stockpiled all enemy weapons and began an inventory, when DELTA 6 directed the platoon to mount up and recon to the north to check the suspect building. 
     The platoon then moved out of the compound under blackout and traveled up the wadi road to the north. After around thirty minutes the platoon was recalled to cover the company’s withdrawal from the objective. The district leader ascertained that the original eleven PUCs were innocent road workers and directed they be let go. The four remaining PUCs were escorted by BLUE back to the ODHQ and turned over to the ANP. The four confirmed EKIA were left in place, with promises by the old district leader to recover them. The platoon loaded all captured weapons up and remained in overwatch until  all elements were safely in the ODHQ.



Captured Equipment Roll Up
1 RPG launcher
7 PG 7 rounds with boosters
1 PKM machine gun
8 AK 47s
1 AK style shotgun
3 cans PKM ammo
26 loaded AK mags
1 large sack of loose AK ammo

     The platoon returned to the NDHQ compound on the 20th  with an ANA squad. All bodies had been removed and most of the blood covered with dirt. The ANA found numerous blood trails and drag marks in the high grass and on the wall to the rear (west) of the barracks. They also found blood trails on the roof of the barracks and B-2. Local ANP and AHP stated that locals put the final toll at 20 ACM killed or wounded, although this cannot be verified.


----------



## darmil

I see there is a picture on here that has a bi pod?Are troops being deployed as a DM or is it just a LCF.Also are vertical grips being issued or do we have to buy them.I don't really want a C9 grip.
With all that shyte on the end of a C7 doesn't it make the rifle heavy or annoying to carry, seems like to much weight for the front of the rifle.


----------



## RHFC_piper

MikeH said:
			
		

> I see there is a picture on here that has a bi pod?Are troops being deployed as a DM or is it just a LCF.Also are vertical grips being issued or do we have to buy them.I don't really want a C9 grip.
> With all that shyte on the end of a C7 doesn't it make the rifle heavy or annoying to carry, seems like to much weight for the front of the rifle.



I had the Bi pod on just to provide a more stable firing platform... and maybe a little LCF.

The Vertical hand grips (and rails) are not issued, I had to buy them, but you can get them cheap on ebay, and they work just as well.  Vertical grips should be issued though. They make a world of differance when shooting.

As for all the crap on the end of the rifle; The flashlight and PAC4 (laser) are issued and manditory. It's just better to have them mounted on the forestock than the tri-rail at the very front of the C7.  There's already a lot of front weight with the C7A2, so it's better to move as much weight to the middle.


----------



## darmil

gotcha..well im going to invest in a vertical grip ,was just wondering, 
Thx for the info.


----------



## silentbutdeadly

we just used the rip from the C9's on our C7/C8's, worked great anf well the cost was zero!


----------



## MikeM

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> The Vertical hand grips (and rails) are not issued, I had to buy them, but you can get them cheap on ebay, and they work just as well.  Vertical grips should be issued though. They make a world of differance when shooting.



+1 Makes all the difference in the world, glad I bought one prior to deployment, although the C9 vertical grip works just as well, and as mentioned above, costs nothing.


----------



## RHFC_piper

I think I spent $10 (with shipping) for my vertical grip on eBay and it was rail mounted, had a battery compartment and 2 panels that slid off the sides so that depression-switch pads could be mounted on it. It was also tan.  I think I got it from an eBay store / seller who speciallized in Paint ball gear, thusly, I believe it was intended for painball... whatever works.

And why do verticle grips work so well?  More comfortable firing position.  If you've never fired with a vertical grip, I'd strongly suggest trying it.  With that said, it doesn't work for everyone.

As for the C9 grips; They work too, but aren't all that comfortable (sometimes) and can be hard to mount. And if you find yourself not using it, or not wanting it, they can be hard to remove. Rail kits are fairly easy to mount, (bolts and flat nuts to fit under the heat shields), cheap (I think I also paid $10 for 3 rails w/ hardware) and then the grips are removable and adjustable, and you can also mount other gucci gear to them (the rails).


----------



## silentbutdeadly

Very good pts on the fact that the C9 grip cannot be taken off fast or easy. Broke a hand guard on one occasion.


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## darmil

> C9 grip cannot be taken off fast or easy. Broke a hand guard on one occasion.


I was wondering if it was hard to take off or if got hit would it break the handguard.Good points guys keep them coming!


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## RHFC_piper

To mount the C9 Grips you usually have to alter the tins (heat shields) so that the nut will fit in the holes... Weapons techs and CQ may get slightly annoyed by this.  And then theres the posibility of breaking the hand guard if the vertical grip gets forced the wrong way, as it's only being held by very little plastic around the mounting point.

If you get a C7 / AR15 / M4 / M16 weaver or picatinny rail kit, they come with flat nuts that fit between the tins and the inside of the hand guards, yet still provide positive hold. The flat nuts spread the pressure evenly on the mounting surfaces and since there is more than one blot holding it in place, it makes it much less likely to break off.  Also, if you get a rail mounted hand grip, it is more likely that the grip will break under pressure before the rail or the hand guard... and like I said, I got my grip on ebay for $10, and I think they sell them in the PX in KAF too.

When I mounted my rails, I ensured that they were parallel (to within .001 of an inch) with the barrel by laying a hand guard (half) on a flat surface (granite block ground to .0001 true) and using a dial indicator to check height differences between ends. I then adjusted the height with various washers until it was damn near perfect... Just so that when I mounted my PAC4 it didn't follow the contour of the hand guards and needed very little adjustment, and so my verticle grip was absolutely verticle to the barrel.  (in my civi life I worked in a machine shop... old habits die hard.)

The alternative to all this is buying pre-railed hand guards; Like this AR15 QUAD RAIL MIDLENGTH HANDGUARD (from VERIFORCE Tactical)

This saves the trouble of zeroing out rails... and these would be a hell of a lot more durable.  A bit pricy in comparison though.

And you can get rail covers so that it looks kind of normal, or if you do break off you vertical grip, you have something other than rail to hold on to.

I'm hoping, when I get back into my civi life, I'll be able to make some of these kinds of things in what ever machine shop I'm working in (on the side).  Gotta love CNC.


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## darmil

http://cgi.ebay.ca/TACTICAL-VERTICAL-GRIP-W-6-PICATINNY-ACCESSORY-RAIL_W0QQitemZ220019973677QQihZ012QQcategoryZ36258QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
I was looking up grips on ebay.ca pretty cheap.If anybody has a good site to get vertical grips, any info would be greatful.


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## silentbutdeadly

i had my own C8 handguard, so i just changed the handguard not the grip, if i needed too. Yeah and CQ's get mad to when you spray paint a new C8 also! ;D


----------



## RHFC_piper

silentbutdeadly! said:
			
		

> Yeah and CQ's get mad to when you spray paint a new C8 also! ;D



I saw a lot of Tan (desert camo) C8s kicking around the CQ when I was there, and I was told a lot of the guys from the last tour *cough*PPCLI*cough* had painted them much to the dismay of the CQs... I also saw a lot of delightful mods to the Remington 870 (folding stocks), but thats a different deal... Anyway, I think camouflaging of rifles is a great idea, if done carefully...  Between the green TV and the black and green rifles, we stand out quite a bit. My suggestion would be to leave a enough weapons in country for all the troops who leave the wire (and some spares) and let the troops from each tour mod them as they go. sort of a "Pimp-my-rifle" kinda deal.  Needless to say, there would have to be due care and maintainance done, but I think with that kind of flexability, the troops can have comfortable weapons without 'pimping' all the weapons in the CF. Also, when handover is done, the incoming troops can better see 'what works' and build from there... just a thought.


On a side note; Before I left for the sand box (now the mud pit), I looked for ways to improve the Remington 870 Shotgun, as I was to be carrying it.  I don't know about everyone else, but I found it to be way too long.  The barrel length was ok, but the solid stock made it a little cumbersum.  I suggested folding stocks and such, but no one wanted to mod the shotties.  One option I began to look into was mounting the shotgun under the C7, like the M203. The US were doing this at one point (haven't seen it in a while), I think they called it "the master key"... anyway, I found a company that makes the mounts, but only for M4 (C8s), so I wasn't able to get it in time.

Since I've been home, I've been considering what I'm going to do with my life after my contract for the tour runs out, and I figure I'll be getting back into machining... So I think this will become another project. Unless anyone else knows where to get such a rig.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I take it the 870 is purely used for breeching ops and such, so taking time to unfold the stock is not an issue? I am currently looking at the Specops recoil reducing stock for my 590, this also has an adjustable AR style stock on the end.

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SpecOpsStock.html


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## KevinB

Shotgun = for breeching.  The CF botched the buy since they shoud have got 14" or shorter barrels -- and just s pistol grip stock.
  However only the JTF/CSOR have breeching rounds -- the CF is supposed to be looking at them.

We put a KAC 870 RAS on ours and a SF light and DR Optic











One section put a pistol grip stock on theirs


----------



## RHFC_piper

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Shotgun = for breeching.  The CF botched the buy since they shoud have got 14" or shorter barrels -- and just s pistol grip stock.



During work up, one of the 'lessons learned' Briefs we got talked about how the US were using shotguns for the 'air centry' (bird gunners) troops for when they drive through cities. It seems that motorists who got too close in busy cities responded to a shotgun blast more than a few rounds from the C7 or a short burst from the C9, and the shotgun had less chance of causing collateral damage due to its short range.

But I agree; the CF should have purchased a 870's with shorter barrels and larger mag capacities.  A pistol grip would have been nice and a folding butt would make it easier to carry around and consume less space in the LAV



			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> However only the JTF/CSOR have breeching rounds -- the CF is supposed to be looking at them..



By 'breaching rounds' do you mean fleschette rounds? or just solid slugs?  'cause we were given solid slugs and buck shot.



			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> We put a KAC 870 RAS on ours and a SF light and DR Optic
> One section put a pistol grip stock on theirs



Pretty sweet looking rigs. Those rails would have been handy.

Is that a 20 rd mag on the C7 in your hands? Is that the Sniper C7CT?  I think I saw a few around in Panjwayi, but I wasn't sure what the deal was with those. 

Wish we could have painted out weapons.



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> I take it the 870 is purely used for breeching ops and such, so taking time to unfold the stock is not an issue? I am currently looking at the Specops recoil reducing stock for my 590, this also has an adjustable AR style stock on the end.
> http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SpecOpsStock.html



Once you breach a room you may have to go in and clear another room.  Switching up shotty for C7 in the middle of the fray may not be an option, so they're not just used for breaching.  When it comes to OBUA, the shorter the weapon, the better.  More manouverability. And even with breaching, you don't really need to unfold the stock... just put the mussle to the bolt and shoot.

But, thats a pretty sweet stock, I can see how it would come in handy.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The downside of short shotguns





Friend of mine is working on 14" shotguns for DFO


----------



## Alex22

That just suck, im leaving in 9 days, and for all I know so far, Im going there with an old C9 manifactuerd in 85. At least I got a folding stock and an iron sight on it, but so far I aint even having the short barrel, and not even a freakin ti-rail on it so I cant mount my PAC2. At least I know we got a good Coy commander and hes working for us to get some new kit. So I pray that Ill get something better but I expect to be doing my best with what I got. Anyways, I ordered a Tiger Tactical Military operation vest with 2 extra C9 pouches. They didnt have Arid Cadpat so I got it in Arid Marpat. Im supposed to get it today. Id also like to find a vertical grip for my C9, and Id like to know what is best for c9, and easy to mount. 

I found this one on Daves surplus: http://www.davesarmysurplus.com/product_info.php?cPath=58_80&products_id=621 
and somebody posted a link on this forum to this one on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.ca/TACTICAL-VERTICAL-GRIP-W-6-PICATINNY-ACCESSORY-RAIL_W0QQitemZ220019973677QQihZ012QQcategoryZ36258QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

I dont know yet which one would be better and more reliable, but I know I'll probably have to make some modification to my hand guard.
Anyway, I might simply ask for it when I get over there. As some of you said, I guess lots of ppl would sell their stuff to the new guys taking their place.


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## PhilB

I would suggest spending the money on a full C9 (M249)) RAS system. For those that dont know, basically a full set of rails that replaces the hand guard on the C9. It will help distribute the weight of the accessories that you are going to be adding. Additionally with the weight and force that will be put on a vertical grip I would not want to go with a jury rigged set up. I can just envision it breaking during sustained firing. Spend the money and then just sell it to your replacement. 

If you want to order stuff but cant get it in Canada in time I can give you the address for the APO (American post office) on KAF. The benefits of shipping to the APO as opposed through normal CF mail is if you are purchasing through the states it doesnt need to clear customs, it is faster, and most American companies will ship to APO for free.

Hope this helps


----------



## Alex22

Well, thank you for the reply. I appreciate. Were not going to be stationed at KAF, but at Nathan Smith camp as, for a while at least, we are going to be providing security for the PRT. Im going to try a search on what that full RAS system on ebay, and maybe I can get it before I leave. If not, Ill ask my mother to send it to me to Nathan Smith camp.


----------



## boondocksaint

The C-9 rail systems 'should' now be issued once you get there. If not, hit up some Americans, they will fix you up. The guys we RIP'd with actually set us up with that gear. Get a few of their patrol ammo holders as well. Dont ditch the scope off the C-9, my boys needed it all the time.

stay safe


----------



## Alex22

You suggest me to keep the scope on the C9... well im gonna take thise suggestion very seriously since you know what your talking about. But didnt you say that most of your combat where at 50 m or less. I always found it easyer to quickly aquire the targets with the iron sights then with the scope, specialy at short range. So far, Ive alwasy been doing good with the iron sights even at medium range.  But Im taking it very seriously and Im looking forward for your answer on this question.


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## Synthos

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Anyway, I think camouflaging of rifles is a great idea, if done carefully...


http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.misc.html#marpat

It's doable... And pretty nice result


----------



## PhilB

Alex, you can have stuff shipped to the APO even if you are at PRT. The way it works is our posties pick it up there and then they will stick it in the PRT bag, so when a convoy comes through to pick up shit you will get your mail. Also talk to the guys in the Force Protection Pl because they come through PRT much more often. If you can hook up a buddy there you can generally get him to pick up your mail and throw it in one of their wagons before they leave, thus getting your mail much faster. When I was at prt my mail was averaging 40 days to get into my hands through the Canadian system and about 20 through the american system. Hope this helps


----------



## boondocksaint

The benifit to the scope was the ability to hard assess potential targets with clarity. Prior to a TIC in Panjawi one of my C-9 gunners was scoping a spot for about 20s when I asked him what he saw

'dude with pkm, 200m'.............game on

although the bulk of our fighting was very close, your instinctive shooting reflexis will kick in and you will be fine. Timmie is a tricksy bugger, and that scope will be a big help finding him. Now, if you want to take turns in certain areas using the ironsight, between you and your other C-9 gunner that works too. My boys did that from time to time. 

Go with what you are comfy with, you may change your mind after a few TIC's. We quickly realized fighting was a constant evolution and we learned new things every time. The fight where you stop learning, is the fight where you start losing.


----------



## silentbutdeadly

To add more to BDS, i used an iron flip site on my C8, but there were times i used the C79. I fell on my head and got a pair of small binos, so i wouldn't have to place my C79 on my weapon all the time.


----------



## Alex22

I think that the solution to this problem is pretty sipmle. Ill make sure my iron sight is always zeroed before I put on my C79 to zero it also. But there is a thing Im not sur of. Is the C79 stable enough for me to zero it, mark the spot on the rail so that I always put it on the same place, and then remove it to put it into my pocket. And lets say, put it back later in a fight and still be more or less on target. Its not a c7 so no need to be bulls eyes. And I can adjust my fire according on the tracers and the impact on the ground. This way, it will give me much more flexibility, and Im going to be able to go from one to the other according to the situation, should I need to fight multiple TIC, like a urban operation and, 2 hours later a ambush where the Timmies are like 300m away from my position. Anyway, thanks for your reply its going to be very helpfull for me and for those who rely on me to provide some firepower.


----------



## KevinB

http://www.operationparts.com/knights-armament.html

Only company that I know that has M249 RAS in stock...FWIW you will likely need it to be shipped to the APO.

The HATTON breaching round is NOT a Slug nor Buck -
  It is a powedered Lead and Ceramix mix -- that destoys the lock/hinge -- while reducing richochette or "splash" off the impact.
Problems is outside UOIC and CANSOF - no one on the CF knows about it -- and conventional units mistakenly beleife they can easily and safely breach with Slugs (Danger Will Robinson Danger


----------



## paracowboy

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> The HATTON breaching round is NOT a Slug nor Buck -
> It is a powedered Lead and Ceramix mix -- that destoys the lock/hinge -- while reducing richochette or "splash" off the impact.
> Problems is outside UOIC and CANSOF - no one on the CF knows about it --


and just TRY to order the fucking thing  :


----------



## KevinB

talk to Morpheus32 -- he not only knows about it -- but is trying to get it to you.
  The best method I found currently (for deployed guys) is to mooch them from friends deployed in units that have them...


----------



## paracowboy

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> talk to Morpheus32 -- he not only knows about it -- but is trying to get it to you.
> The best method I found currently (for deployed guys) is to mooch them from friends deployed in units that have them...


yeah, that's how we got some in my Platoon for Roto 0.


----------



## Alex22

PhilB said:
			
		

> Alex, you can have stuff shipped to the APO even if you are at PRT. The way it works is our posties pick it up there and then they will stick it in the PRT bag, so when a convoy comes through to pick up crap you will get your mail. Also talk to the guys in the Force Protection Pl because they come through PRT much more often. If you can hook up a buddy there you can generally get him to pick up your mail and throw it in one of their wagons before they leave, thus getting your mail much faster. When I was at prt my mail was averaging 40 days to get into my hands through the Canadian system and about 20 through the american system. Hope this helps



Actualy, Force Protection Pl are those protecting the reconstruction team? If they are... well thats what Im gonna do. But anyway, I think there is a way to get it shipped directly to Nathan Smith. Anyway, I have a feeling that the departure will be later. Were supposed to be leaving on December 4th, which is next monday, and Ive got no news about it yet.


----------



## PhilB

From my tour the Force Protection Pl was doing convoy escorts to and from PRT and on convoys out and about to FOB's. Now I dont know what force protection at PRT will be doing, dont discount doing gate, but who knows. As far as getting stuff shipped directly to PRT it is not possible. All mail comes in from Canada on a herc, is sorted and then distributed. If you are at PRT you will get your mail through the re sup convoy from KAF. 

We dont have our own airlift and as such we cant fly stuff to PRT, road is the only way. It takes a while. With the APO address it is the same deal. It comes in from the U.S. on a globe master. Gets sorted by the yanks and then sent out. Sorry buds, mail takes a long time at PRT.


----------



## Alex22

Well... I kinda figured that out. I dont expect anything to be in my hands before at least 3 - 4 weeks. They told us we'd be mostly doing convoy escort. But could also do some Gate. And I expect to be working with the RCR there on some occasion also.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Don't sweat it. You're right. 'Nuff said. Let's move on.

I'm interested in seeing more 'Lessons' from infanteers who've been to Afghanistan posted in this thread. Anyone care to keep contributing? I'm particularly intersted in anything we can do in training here to prepare people better for pre-deployment selection or ops in country. Especially the things we don't normally think about until it's too late. First aid and caseveac? Fitness training? Coy level int considerations? Coy/Bn Ops room stuff? Vehicle preparation? Tips for kit prep? etc etc etc. Obviously, all within the bounds of op sec.

Thanks Afghan vets. This is all pure gold dust!


----------



## Infanteer

Good to see the discussion moving along - I've cleaned it up a bit; lets stay on topic.


----------



## a_majoor

Not Afghanistan, but relevant none the less:

http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2006/12/fallujah-tactics-in-urban-warfare.html
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000345;p=0



> 11 December 2006
> *Fallujah: Tactics in Urban Warfare *
> 
> My son recently dug up an interesting read about the infantry tactics used during Operation Phantom Fury, the Battle for Fallujah. I recall listening to predictions of a bloodbath; an American bloodbath, just before the assault. In fact, US forces made history, and no matter what happens to Iraq in the end, Operation Phantom Fury will go down as one of the greatest successes in urban warfare… ever. 92 Americans died, 500 were wounded, and about 5000 insurgents were killed in the clearing of an entire city.
> 
> The whole Piece can be found HERE. For those who aren’t into reading the entire thing, some excerpts are given below:
> 
> The layout of the city is random. Zoning distinguishing between residential, business, and industrial is non-existent. An infantry squad could be clearing a house and next door may be clearing a slaughterhouse or furniture wood shop… The streets are narrow and are generally lined by walls. The walls channelize the squad and do not allow for standard immediate action drills when contact is made …The houses are densely packed in blocks. The houses touch or almost touch the adjacent houses to the sides and rear. This enables the insurgents to escape the view of Marine over-watch positions. The houses also are all made of brick with a thick covering of mortar overtop.
> 
> The two types of insurgents that the squads are engaging will be labeled the Guerrillas and the Martyrs … The Guerillas … purpose is to kill many Marines quickly and then evade. They DO NOT want to die. The Martyrs purpose is to kill as many Marines as possible before they are killed.
> 
> An infantry squad can assault structures using two different methods. Traditionally, the top down assault is taught as being the most ideal method for clearing a structure. Realistically, this may not be the best option for the infantry squad …Surprising the enemy by moving from the top down may throw the enemy off balance. The enemy's defenses may not be prepared for a top down assault and the squad could overwhelm the enemy rapidly. (In the bottom up method) … the squad leader has a slew of options when contact is made. The structure does not have to be flooded. Momentum can be maintained in assaulting or breaking contact and the squad leader can switch rapidly from one to the other relatively quickly.
> 
> CASUALTIES MUST NEVER BE LEFT BEHIND! The squad leader must ensure that every Marine moves with a buddy. Each buddy is responsible for pulling the other out of the fight if he goes down. The squad leader and fire team leaders must have accountability for all their Marines at all times. There is no excuse for Marines being left behind in a building while the squad pulls out.
> 
> Throughout contemporary American military history there has not been any opponent that could not be overwhelmed by American supporting arms. The United States Marine Corps has historically been an innovator with the employment of supporting arms … Fallujah has been another proving ground for American supporting arms. The insurgents were completely overwhelmed by the massive indirect fire and close air support on the first two days of the battle.
> 
> Fixed wing CAS is an enormous weapon that has great effects on the ground. The major problem with it is the amount of time it takes to get bombs on target. It took entirely too long for bombs to be dropped when Marines were in contact … In contrast to fixed wing CAS, rotary wing CAS was extremely timely, but the effects on target were not extraordinary. The Hellfire missiles used did not bring down entire structures, but they did do some damage … By far the best two supporting arms used were tanks and CAAT … The battle would have been incredibly bloodier if it hadn't been for tanks and CAAT.


----------



## A Man Apart

Jesus Christ, that is the *REAL DEAL*...MASSIVE respect boondocksaint  

Jeff


----------



## reddevilsrock

Hey Boondock,

well done on the threads and keepin it real for everyone else. you and i prolly shared the same BAT tent and ate to many hard rats in FOB Marshmellow. All those who are reading and replying boondock was there and spot on with the S**T. In one of the threads I was reading about the issue day bags. So true they suck. Big point here for the guys going for their first tour. Don't be a hero pack what you can carry and get used to drinking hot water in 60 deg weather. Air conditioning tubes in the back of the lav keep it cool though. Oh remember JDAMS kick butt. Just make you are sure of your grids.

REDDEVILS


----------



## MG34

WE ditched the Elcrap ASAP most preferring to use other optics (ACOG, Aimpoint w/magnifier,EOtech,etc) The C79 is junk pure and simple and not trusted by most users,despite the fact we are now on Gen III or IV the scope will not hold it's zero in particular when exposed to the fine powery sand which caused the elevaion "wheel' to jam and strip. 99% of our targets engaged were within 300m of those 90% were spotted on thermal or optic from the LAV before  we saw and identified them. The LAV should not be sent off to do it's thing it belongs with or near the section as much as possible to deliver direct fire on the enemy.If it cannot enter with the troops t should be deployed with the other section LAVs in as close support as possible with direct comms,remember a LAV will go through ..as in drive..most walled compounds out there.
  The 60mm,C6 are the biggest bad guy killers in the Platoon next to the LAV the C9 Gunner & rifleman's job is to protect these weapons do not let your chain of command forget that. Arty is your friend , we called it to within 70m but A/C bombs need 300m of safe distance (less if you are under cover) 81mm Illum is better than 155mm Illum and can get there faster and stay longer. The UAV has saved lives, get one on station if you can .
 The issued IR flashers (VIPER and TAG) cannot be seen from A/C or Helis in most cases, make sure you deploy with a ACR MS 2000 IR Strobe as it will be seen by everyone (incl the bad guys). We found that the bad guys had access to passive NVD of some type,so treat the PAC 4A and PEQ2 use to a minimum and treat white light and laser Negligent Dischargess as just that.
  Enforce the warrior mindset and maintain it at all times when deployed out of the wire, be prepared for anything at anytime, you can relax in KAF.


----------



## geo

Some good material there MG34

Thanks much!


----------



## Haggis

I'd like to ask and encourage the recently returned members of TF 1-07 to contribute their lessons learned as well.

This is great stuff to pass on.  We've still got at least three more rotos to go.


----------



## RB612

Thank God for men like you who go over, knowing what the horrible circumstances could be, and fight so others can sleep warm in their beds. Give 'em hell and fight the good fight.


----------



## Panzer Grenadier

As someone who is planning on going on tour (I'm a reservist so I'm waiting for fresh information on the next Task Force for LFCA, I believe its 1-10) all of this material is outstanding. I am sure as hell glad this topic exists for those who have been in the sand box, come back and are passing all this knowledge on. (I would hate to ever cross MG34 as I would probably have nightmares for many years after  ;D).


----------



## Teeps74

Just started reading this thread... The lessons learned here from the bayonet's perspective are invaluable, and should be required reading at all levels IMHO.

To the contributors, my most humble thanks and appreciation.


----------



## OldSolduer

I've just started reading this thread. So far, Well done!! Keep up the  good work.
I'm an infantryman as well, however my days of chasing down insurgents in Afghanistan are not in the cards. I'm 50, a tough 50, but a bit past my prime ....however I can fulfill various "staff jobs" etc. So yes I've volunteered. Enough of this.
I have this to say about any new piece of kit, whether it be a LAVIII, an RG31 or a rucksack: Some genius  in TF HQ, Bde HQ or NDHQ thinks a troop can carry more kit, so they come up with whacky kits lists. Usually these people never have to carry the kit, and complain bitterly when the troops do their own thing that works.....is this the Afghan experience or did we have an issue of common sense from the RQMS?


----------



## geo

OS... sometimes Common Sense is on back-order or at least in short supply....


----------



## tomahawk6

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=48746

Commanders in Afghanistan Share Tactics, Procedures
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 23, 2008 – Commanders in Afghanistan share their best counterinsurgency tactics, but the country is big and what works in one area may not work in another, the commander of NATO’s Regional Command—East said during a Pentagon news conference today. 

U.S. Army Maj. Gen. David Rodriguez said the counterinsurgency tactics he uses in the eastern provinces of the country may not work in other areas. Earlier this month, a flurry of stories suggested that U.S. forces in the country do a better job at the counterinsurgency fight against the Taliban than NATO allies stationed in other regions. 

“It's a different fight and a different type of challenge in each different area,” Rodriguez said. “Each force is in there, whether it be RC East, Northwest, South or Capital. It's a different type of terrain, it's a different type of tribal infrastructure, a different type of leadership in the Afghan government.” 

All these differences have an impact on the type of tactics used, Rodriguez said. Still, the commanders of the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force and U.S. forces constantly share information. “We're in touch with them all the time,” the general said. “We coordinate with them. We share lessons learned and work with them very carefully, closely, to share anything we have.” 

The NATO troops also learn from Afghan forces and vice versa, Rodriguez said. 

This information sharing is important, he said, but commanders must remember that “all the lessons don't translate one-to-one, but we all talk about the principles and those things.” 

Rodriguez’s command has about 160 districts and there has been between 30 to 40 percent improvement in security, governance and development, he said. “What that has done is reduce the area from which the enemy … can conduct operations from support bases that are out there. So, we believe that we've significantly restricted their freedom of movement,” he said. 

Despite the political problems in Pakistan, the command has a great military-to-military coordination with the Pakistani military on the border, the general said. 

“Over the past several years, the coalition forces have been able to develop some trust between the Pakistani military and the coalition forces, and now that is starting to extend to the Afghan military forces,” Rodriguez said. Pakistani military leaders “realize it's a common enemy that we're fighting, and in a common cause.” 

The Taliban and al Qaeda are establishing safe havens and training areas in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan, the general said. The area has much the same geography as eastern Afghanistan, and troops trying to police the area face many of the same problems, he said. 

“It's rugged, rugged terrain,” Rodriguez said. “And (the Taliban and al Qaeda) have been able to establish some support bases over time, but it's the same problem you have in both sides of the border. I mean, we have to disrupt the support bases so that they can't survive in those areas, and support the development of governance and development in those areas. 

“I think it will be a long time to change … the situation there. And again, I think the Pak military is committed to doing that.”


----------



## fireman451

I can offer only a quick heads up, if you're entering a village at first light and the entire village leaves with all their personal effects in tow, you are F#@Ked. They know its game on so just walk in there and wait for the kickoff.


----------



## RHFC_piper

fireman451 said:
			
		

> I can offer only a quick heads up, if you're entering a village at first light and the entire village leaves with all their personal effects in tow, you are F#@Ked. They know its game on so just walk in there and wait for the kickoff.



Just to tack on to this, if I may... and some here may know what I'm talking about...  If you're sitting in a leaguer, just before going in to a village at first light, and you see truck loads of women and children leaving and truck loads of unarmed "fighting aged males" coming into the village... as above, expect to take it hard.


----------



## fireman451

Yeah the women and children were an omen for sure. Although on my tour TF 106 OEF we didnt see too many fighting age males enter the areas while we advanced, we mostly acted on reports they were already in sangin, panjwaii, seyyddan, and zhari to name a few. But I must say that "pit of your stomach" feeling came on fast when the mass exodus  started, an almost sure sign TICs are soon to follow. Grapehuts can suck me in the middle of july of 2006.hahaha


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

plus.............. if your rolling with the ANP dont expect them to do anything short of retreat and give the enemy more of a vantage point on your position.


(Moderator edit to remove unnecessary terminology.)


----------



## TheHead

When_in_doubt_rack_out said:
			
		

> plus.............. if your rolling with the ANP dont expect them to do anything short of retreat and give the enemy more of a vantage point on your position.
> 
> 
> (Moderator edit to remove unnecessary terminology.)



AGREED!!!


We had 20ish ANP with us on August 3/06. The second the bullets started flying they turned tail and ran like cowards.  
The ANA on the other hand, were good to go.   They were always at the tip of the spear, ready too fight and knew the lay of the land very well.  Other than almost being killed by an RPG back blast I have had no problems with them


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

yeah the ANA were ok in most cases.  At least they wernt smoking joints and play wrestling during fire fights like the ANP liked to do


----------



## A_Royal

This has been so informative. I've spent the past few days reading these posts and I can honestly say that I've learned A LOT. I'm a no hook private (was supposed to get my rank this past summer but was RTU'd) but I hope to be able to go overseas in the next few years. In any case what I wanted to say was about the gunfighter program. In the 2 weeks that I was in my SQ in Meaford we were given a very informal lesson one day on the MG range. Later on at my unit, a couple of the cpls and sgts who operated the SAT brought us down and had us there for about an hour or so. Our unit was scheduled to go on the PWT4 ("instinctive shooting") and they thought they'd give us an intro even though we weren't qualified. The point of all this was to show that it is slowly making it's way into the system from what i've seen. 
P.s. Thanks to all who took the time to post their experiences, i hope to have much more to read in this thread in the months to come. 
Respect to all of you


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

The "gunfighter program" as they call it these days, i found was a not too bad training tool.  I found the program taught a far better method of quickly engaging targets then i ever learned in sq or biq.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Mods - if I missed this elsewhere (searched), feel free to delete.....


*“3-D Soviet Style: Lessons Learned from the Soviet Experience in Afghanistan” *
Anton Minkov and Gregory Smolynec, DRDC Centre for Operational Research & Analysis, Technical Memorandum TM 2007-36, 26 Oct 07
Report - alternate download site (both .pdf)

Abstract:  3-D Soviet Style: A Presentation on Lessons Learned from the Soviet Experience in Afghanistan presents research on the history of the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. The presentation analyzes Soviet efforts in defence, development and diplomacy during the Soviet-Afghan War (1979-1989) at the strategic, operational and tactical levels. The research is based on up-to-date Russian and English language sources; and analysis of statistical data pertaining to the conflict. The authors, Anton Minkov and Gregory Smolynec, argue that previous studies of the subject are either inadequate or distorted by Cold War attitudes and that the Soviet experience offers many lessons to be learned in current efforts to stabilize and rebuild Afghanistan.


----------



## RHFC_piper

I know this thread has been dormant for a while, but I've been thinking back a lot on Afghanistan and some of the stuff that went on during TICs and Ops...  Which really is nothing new for me, but now it's not so much "flash backs" and bad memories.    Lately I've been thinking about how I could have been better prepared. What training could have been improved and how.  And since I probably won't be going on another tour (for a long time) and the chances of the next tour I go on being a combat tour, I figured I'd empty my head on the next generation of war fighters.   Also, I can't sleep, and writing centers me.   


Okay... so here it is;

Individual Soldier Skills...  This is something I noticed on the BF.  Yeah, we've all done the gun fighter program, or at least instinctive shooting, but that's just the beginning.  Whilst in prolonged fire fights, I didn't have that many problems getting on target, engaging, changing mags or performing any other drills, thanks to the GFP, but things could definitely be improved.  When I look back at work up trg, I seem to remember sitting around in the plt area for a few hours a day, doing nothing... waiting.  At that time, that seemed pretty normal.  Now that I look back at it, that could have been a good chance to practice some of the skills taught in the GFP... or even TOETs...  Mag changes... anything to improve reaction time and ability.  Even dry trg is effective.  
Along with this, and it has been mentioned quite a bit; train with the kit you're going to use.  I wish I had more time practicing drills with my Chest rig, forward grip and everything else I used over there.  

Anything to improve reaction time under contact and build muscle memory is worth while in my book....  Consider it like going to the gym and working out; you do it to improve your ability.  As well, we should be practicing drills like you would practice playing an instrument.  For example; Bag pipes (bet you didn't see this one coming)... I have noticed that if I don't go to practice at least once a week, for the normal 2 hours, my ability and accuracy in playing decreases.  The longer I go between practicing, the worse I get.  It's not that I forget how to play; it's just the loss of muscle memory.  

I compare soldier skills to bag pipes for 3 reasons;    

- As any piper will tell you, playing technique is pretty much a drill.  you first learn the scale, then simple tunes and once on the full set you start learning breathing techniques and how to maintain constant pressure.  All of this comes down to drills you practice, sometimes whether you realize it or not, every time you play.

- All music played on the pipes is, for the most part, memorized.  Pipers learn where the notes are and how to use them, along with grace notes which, in some cases, can be harder to learn than the base of the tune they're in...  The piper then has to memorize order, tempo, parts, strike ups, cut offs and transitions in sets... With no music in front of them.  This requires regular practice.  The more complicated the tune/set, the more practice the piper needs to ensure it is done accurately.  This is why a lot of comp bands play a few sets, and play them well, switching tunes very rarely, rather than having a large repertoire and learning new tunes all the time.  To me, this is much like soldiers having multiple weapons systems, comms equipment and other tools, and practicing on their specific use over and over until it is second nature.  Drill, as it were. 

- Playing the pipes, especially in a military band, involves multi-tasking. Take the above mentioned items and combine them with foot drill.  A piper in a military band has to do the following at the same time; March, pay attention to the drum major for commands and cut offs, pay attention to the Pipe major for musical selection or memorize a selection, pay attention to the drum corps for tempo, listen for cut off double beats and rolls, concentrate on playing technique and play the tunes in the selection from memory.... sounds familiar, eh? In combat, the soldiers has to be aware of his CoC and orders, remember contact drills and conduct them, keep contact with the section, maintain situational awareness, effectively engage the enemy and conduct stoppage drills efficiently to continue effective combat.   To accomplish these goals; the piper and the soldier have to practice.


I was once told; long ago (while I was in cadets, but by a RegF MWO from the RCR... don't ask me to remember names) that drill is conducted to ensure you don't have to think about it... Those who are very good at foot drill are able to turn off their minds and just move by reaction.    I agree with this.
Weapons drill and playing the pipes are no different.  I have found that the more I play the pipes, the better I get.  Tunes and notes are played more precisely, and with greater ease.  There was a time, when I was in college, when I thought I was almost at the level of playing where I could compete (at grade 4 or maybe 3)... And only because I had the time to practice at least 1 hour a day, as well as 2 X 2 hour practices a week (Tuesdays and Thursdays, since I was attached to the band).  Others in the band had also noticed the improvement in ability.  But now, due to my work and physio schedule, and the fact that I'm pretty sore all the time (even more now thanks to wicked bad muscle spasms around the wounds in my back) I have only been to 2 band practices in the last 6 months... My playing has suffered greatly.  I'm still able to play; it just takes more effort and requires a great deal of concentration.  

Now, back to the issue at hand.  How does this relate?  Well, as with band, I also haven't picked up a C7 in a while, thanks to restriction.  The last time I did, I helped one of my buddies in the rifle company teach tactical mag changes...  I found myself fumbling with the mag and struggling a bit.  The skills are still there, but the muscle memory is weakening.  

So, where am I going with this?  Well, here it is in a nutshell... and as much as I don't like to step on toes, I'm going to jump on them now... this is something the CoC has to realize at all levels;  TOET, weapons and equipment drills, and basic (and I mean Pte/Cpl) soldier skills are the meat and potatoes, the bread and butter, the large Timmies Double Double, what ever other saying you want to throw in to express the most important, most paramount skills of the combat soldier.  If you choose to ignore these skills and take them as read, move on to "advanced trg" and bypass them, you will have excited soldiers able to do all the cool stuff, kind of... but won't be able to change a magazine whilst getting shot at.  The focus of training for the combat soldier should be his/her ability to conduct combat at his/her individual soldier level... Soldiers have to be able to confidently and effectively master these skills before they’re expected to move on to higher and more involved levels of trg.  And even when they’ve learned these skills, they must continue practicing them.  What use is a soldier in a platoon attack/company attack/raid/etc if they have to think about skills that should be muscle memory?

Here's what I brought back from my exp in a few tics and Op Medusa; I should have spent more time practicing soldier skills and less time "guarding lockers" in the platoon area.  
Whose fault is it that I didn't? Well... Mine...   The resources were there; Rifle, TV (or Chest rig), helmet, space, time.... but, no... I sat on a$$.  

The one thing I did do, and I'd strongly advise all those deploying to do, is read... read everything that you can about every aspect of the mission, the country, the people, the conflict, the enemy, foreign weapons... everything... read, read, read.

The best discipline for a deploying soldier is to put their role, their job and their personal skills at the top of the heap.  Another analogy from my personal exp;  Trades... most professionals in a specific field will read/subscribe to/study any and all publications regarding their trade/field to maintain their ability, skills, and knowledge of any changes or improvements to their trade, then use this information to stay current... I found myself doing this when I finish college and started working in a machine shop.  

I didn't read anything about machining before I took the course, but once I found it would help me, I read everything I could.  And I did the same before deployment.  I grabbed old PAMs I had forgotten about and re read them, read everything I could find online (especially here) and started reading books... and I'm not a "booky" person.   

Even now, I read every thing I can on things which may help my current career or situation.  I've learned so much, in the last year or so, about Recruiting, Military law, the CF medical and support system, Mechanical Engineering (in the last few months), Afghanistan (even more), Physical Fitness (specifically rehabilitation) and everything relating to my injuries...   I've even been caught reading posts here at Army.ca at work (by the RSM) and explaining that it is the best way for me to say current...  Example; I knew about the new CT system before the CFRC sent me an official message about it thanks to the post here, and was able to change it in the Unit Recruiting and Transfer SOPs long before I was officially told to...  Not to mention all the other fantastic advice and information I get about my personal situation (thank you army.ca).

This is the change/addition I believe should be made in the CF trg structure; Encourage soldiers to self study and give them the time and resources to do it... and the discipline of self study, and self improvement should be reinforced by the CoC.   It seems to me that a lot of soldiers won't do any kind of self study unless so instructed... this seems to be the result of the standard "wait till we tell you" method of trg.  Knowledge in this field is not a commodity to be hoarded; if a soldier wants to learn, they should be inundated with all the information they can handle, given time to absorb it, supplied resources to practice it and encouraged to do more... and correction if required.  
Soldiers who subscribe to this method are better for it.

I feel that if I were physically able to deploy again (and allowed by both my military and marital CoC), thanks to this discipline of self study and the urge to improve my skills, I would be much more effective and would be much more of an asset to the BG than I was on my last (and only) tour.


I could write pages and pages on all the specific things to do, or not do when deployed to Afghanistan... as a rifleman... as Reserve Augmentee... as breacher... as piper... but how much of that knowledge is useful in current operations?  Very little.  Things change quickly there and new knowledge and SOPs are being developed each tour.
So, I'd have to say; developing the desire to excel, the thirst for knowledge and the disciple to practice regularly the basic skills for combat and operations, is the best advice I can give... And will serve you in any operational, training, or occupational environment, not just in the sand box.    


Well... that’s about enough writing for me for now.  I really hope this diatribe made sense, but I have a funny feeling it's clearer to me, in my soupy head, than it will be for the average reader...  If that’s the case, then here's my back up advice; avoid getting wounded if you can... or, you to will be apt to make little sense in long compositions at random intervals ...   Oh... and avoid the Subway on the boardwalk in KAF...  not good... not even after 2 weeks of IMPs. 






Oh yeah... before I forget; There have been a few tours since the information given in the last few posts (including this one)... Why haven't people from the last few Rotos posted any new info?  It’s pretty dynamic there and I figured new stuff would be making its way back here by now... lets have it, troops...


----------



## geo

Roto4 has just come home.
There is a bit of a language issue to deal with but, I will have a chat with a couple of friends and encourage them to get "on net"


----------



## Kiwi99

Piper, thanks for being honest about what you learnt in all those many TICs you were in while you were there!  I'm tracking!


----------



## boondocksaint

Hiya, been a while since I've checked in. Roughly at the halfway mark on this one and there are a few things that could be added. In no particular order.

- Dry Fire shirts, they're the combat sleeved shirt based on a wicking design t-shirt system. Way more comfortable to wear under all the armor and vests. And has the added bonus of actually moving sweat away from your body. The Brits and the Americans have been using them for a bit, and as per we're behind the times. Our platoon put in a bulk order and have been wearing them when we're out and about. We havent been technically told we cant wear them.....and havent been told not to. A great investment.

- Boots, if you're gonna wear the issued ones, you're going to have feet like a hobbit. Im sure there are folks who havent had a problem with them. BUT invest in your feet, the Brits carry Meindl's at their store on KAF, great boot. Or Swat's for those who like the running shoe feel. Socks, dont cheap out at Wal Mart, you'll do a lot of walking or standing around on cordon. Love your feet they'll love you back.

- M-72's, during your work up training get your hands on them, fire them at structures, not tank targets, and get the lads used to putting them through doors, or cornering a door. The " Canadian RPG " is a feared beast on the battlefield here, I love them.

Gunfighter- Do the basic version. AND THEN improvise, we practised doing some funky made up on the fly shooting that was both fun and practical. If the boys arent having fun shooting, they wont learn. Do little competitions to get them moving faster, watch their fine motor skills degenerate and the ones who arent picking it up will be easily spotted. It's all about the gross motor skills in a TIC.

TAC VEST, Tactical Tailor......lie, steal, cheat, take whatever crap comes your way, but if you're gonna be out and about alot, wear what works for you. Try to become part of one of the " Trial Programs " to enable wearing good gear. we did. If your COC wont budge on kit, have a little competition with them wearing issue while you wear the good stuff and do some gunfighter drills. If that does not work, well, go back to-steal, lie, cheat. It will save lives. 

more when I can


----------



## George Wallace

I just was reminded of a Lesson that we often forget or dismiss.  GARBAGE.  You know....That sand bag of garbage that is hanging off your back fender or turret.  The one you threw your batteries into when you put fresh ones into your NVG's, PLUGR, etc.  That bag often gets torn off in close quarters such as brush, or perhaps a kid grabbed it while you passed in traffic.  Whatever, there are things in there that can be of use to the enemy.  Those batteries weren't dead.  They weren't fully charged; but they weren't dead.  It doesn't take much of a charge to set off an electrical blasting cap.  What else did you put in your garbage?  What potential threat could it create?

Keep your garbage inside.  Don't hang it outside where it will fall off.  Don't give an innovative enemy resources to use against you.


----------



## c4th

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> - Dry Fire shirts,...about. We havent been technically told we cant wear them.....and havent been told not to. A great investment.
> 
> - Boots, ..., the Brits carry Meindl's at their store on KAF, great boot. Or Swat's for those who like the running shoe feel. Socks, dont cheap out at Wal Mart, you'll do a lot of walking or standing around on cordon. Love your feet they'll love you back.



The deal with the dry fire shirts is the zipper failed the DRDC flash test.  Cut out the zipper and stich up the threads and you are GTG as far as the BG and TFA RSM's are concerned.  I assume the zipper in our pants passed the test.  Maybe the good folks at CP gear can put two and two together and sort this out.  Crew neck as the US has would work too.

Boot:  I wear issued and walk everywhere.  But my feet are old.  Every boot has mixed reviews, and I mean every boot, bought or issued.  Make sure you try them on and are 100% or better happy with what you are going to wear in theatre.  

Stay safe,


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

We burned all our garbage before rolling out and never had any strapped to our vehicle from what I remember.


----------



## c4th

George Wallace said:
			
		

> GARBAGE.



Without the obvious slight to George that probably got my last post censored:  All arms live this every day in theatre.  The OPSEC briefs are clear, and the CQ's and staff do a fantastic job getting the garbage dealt with in a safe manner.

Thank you for the reminder.  

For those over, stay safe.

TNO


----------



## c4th

Trust No One said:
			
		

> Boot:  I wear issued and walk everywhere....



I also recommend going to physio before deployment and getting some good insoles.  I did, and after the Major looked at my gait, I was issued two pairs of insoles that are better than anything I could have bought after market.  There is nothing wrong with my feet, but certainly there are benefits to a bit of prevention.

Everyone who might be on dismounted operations should have a professional look at their feet.  It's well worth the 30 minutes out of your day.


----------



## George Wallace

Trust No One said:
			
		

> Without the obvious slight to George that probably got my last post censored:  All arms live this every day in theatre.  The OPSEC briefs are clear, and the CQ's and staff do a fantastic job getting the garbage dealt with in a safe manner.
> 
> Thank you for the reminder.
> 
> For those over, stay safe.
> 
> TNO



Not to make a sour note, although this topic is "Lessons for the Infantry in Afghanistan", as pointed out, it is relevant to all pers deploying.  It is commenable that your experiences have been as stated and your higher ups have stressed these points.  That is not what is in question, nor being commented on.  That was a "Lesson Learned".  Follow on troops may become complacent and not be briefed on this or ignore it.   

You are correct.  All Arms must pay attention to these lessons.  They are not "Infantry" specific.  There are some very excellent points that have been brought up, and many have benefited from them.  I hope that guys from this site, who return from deploymentwill be as dedicated to can keep these pointers up to date with the latest developments.


----------



## Garett

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> - M-72's, during your work up training get your hands on them, fire them at structures, not tank targets, and get the lads used to putting them through doors, or cornering a door. The " Canadian RPG " is a feared beast on the battlefield here, I love them.



Is anyone having any luck using hearing protection in combat? I know a few guys with extensive hearing damage due to firing M72s and 84mms in combat. I've now extensively used the Surefire EP3s during live fire exercises but I've been told by those who know that its better to go without on ops. I'd think it would be better even if you lose a bit from wearing them, unless you're in certain positions in the formation.


----------



## matty101

Hi everyone, first off this thread is great and i will be passing on as much as i can to my platoon.  I'm a c9 gunner with the BG on TF-308, we leave at the end of the month!!!!! I was hoping to get any final info from any members that were using the c9 on past roto's.  Any thing at all, from cleaning, shooting, tactics, vests, load carriage, storeys anything at all, typical engagements, weapon effects at different ranges. I'm an information whore and all input will be appreciated.  Thanks a lot and talk to you soon. MTH    :threat:


----------



## daftandbarmy

MTH said:
			
		

> Hi everyone, first off this thread is great and i will be passing on as much as i can to my platoon.  I'm a c9 gunner with the BG on TF-308, we leave at the end of the month!!!!! I was hoping to get any final info from any members that were using the c9 on past roto's.  Any thing at all, from cleaning, shooting, tactics, vests, load carriage, storeys anything at all, typical engagements, weapon effects at different ranges. I'm an information ***** and all input will be appreciated.  Thanks a lot and talk to you soon. MTH    :threat:



Try punching 'C9' into the search bar top left: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search2

FWIW, I think it would be a good idea to have a C9-heavy 'Weapons Det' in each Platoon, and push it to where it's needed to win the fire fight as required. But someone who's actually been in a real firefight recently could probably comment with greater authority than I on that idea.


----------



## TheHead

Garett said:
			
		

> Is anyone having any luck using hearing protection in combat? I know a few guys with extensive hearing damage due to firing M72s and 84mms in combat. I've now extensively used the Surefire EP3s during live fire exercises but I've been told by those who know that its better to go without on ops. I'd think it would be better even if you lose a bit from wearing them, unless you're in certain positions in the formation.




When I was on the ground it was virtually impossible to use hearing protecting with the PRR in one ear.   I'd recommend it if you can find some suitable protecting that still allows you to hear your surroundings.  I have massive hearing problems now due to being a C9 gunner and LAV gunner in fire fights.


----------



## daftandbarmy

TheHead said:
			
		

> When I was on the ground it was virtually impossible to use hearing protecting with the PRR in one ear.   I'd recommend it if you can find some suitable protecting that still allows you to hear your surroundings.  I have massive hearing problems now due to being a C9 gunner and LAV gunner in fire fights.



I don't want to sound like your mum (or Pl 2IC) but have you filled in a CF 98, or whatever the equivalent is on operations? It would be crazy if you couldn't get any financial support later for paperwork problems now.


----------



## TheHead

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I don't want to sound like your mum (or Pl 2IC) but have you filled in a CF 98, or whatever the equivalent is on operations? It would be crazy if you couldn't get any financial support later for paperwork problems now.



Yes I did.  I'm a civilian right now so VAC and I are dealing with it at the moment.   It's a long process but VAC  is really supportive so far. It's a really cool situation really. My grandfather fought in Korea so every few months when his VAC officer comes out to see him she helps me with my issues.


----------



## daftandbarmy

TheHead said:
			
		

> Yes I did.  I'm a civilian right now so VAC and I are dealing with it at the moment.   It's a long process but VAC  is really supportive so far. It's a really cool situation really. My grandfather fought in Korea so every few months when his VAC officer comes out to see him she helps me with my issues.



Good show. Glad to 'hear' it (forgive the pun). All the best!


----------



## BlackHalo

It's been a while since there was an update here. Does anyone have any new info to add? This has been a great thread!


----------



## RHFC_piper

BlackHalo said:
			
		

> It's been a while since there was an update here. Does anyone have any new info to add? This has been a great thread!



I was just thinking the same thing.  But, we're in rotation season, so I'd expect some new info in the next month or so from the guys coming back.
There should be plenty of new info from the front, especially since the nature of operations is geared more to dismounted patrols and such now.

So lets have it... Keep this thread going.


----------



## BlackHalo

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I was just thinking the same thing.  But, we're in rotation season, so I'd expect some new info in the next month or so from the guys coming back.
> There should be plenty of new info from the front, especially since the nature of operations is geared more to dismounted patrols and such now.
> 
> So lets have it... Keep this thread going.



I didn't know the rotation hadn't come back yet. Best of luck to our men over there holding the fort! :threat:


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Guys give people a chance, sometimes returning personnel just want to kick back and relax and not deal with thinking about their experiences.


----------



## putz

Just got back from 1-08.  One of the best peices of kit that I got was the Camelbak Backpack.  Pick it up at the PX.  Once I had mine I never used the day bag again, the best part.....  With some playing around you can fit another 3 Liter bladder into it as well, that means 6 liters without having to play around with kit or re-fill bladders every 5 or so hours (thats of course when I was carrying the pack).  The big thing to learn is be it light infantry or mech, you'll be doing both, however, in some cases A LOT of light infantry patrolling and engagements (without LAV support).  Something that during workup training we did little of.


----------



## OldSolduer

I sincerely hope that ALL TF 3-08 members get back alive and well.


----------



## daftandbarmy

putz said:
			
		

> Just got back from 1-08.  One of the best peices of kit that I got was the Camelbak Backpack.  Pick it up at the PX.  Once I had mine I never used the day bag again, the best part.....  With some playing around you can fit another 3 Liter bladder into it as well, that means 6 liters without having to play around with kit or re-fill bladders every 5 or so hours (thats of course when I was carrying the pack).  The big thing to learn is be it light infantry or mech, you'll be doing both, however, in some cases A LOT of light infantry patrolling and engagements (without LAV support).  Something that during workup training we did little of.



Good point about the mech vs. dismounted preparation during workup. Every good General likes to think they're either Rommel or Patton.

 If you had to do it all over again, what would the 'ideal' blend of training look like?


----------



## putz

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Good point about the mech vs. dismounted preparation during workup. Every good General likes to think they're either Rommel or Patton.
> 
> If you had to do it all over again, what would the 'ideal' blend of training look like?


I would do some mechanized however, I would do the basics as well ( I know I know its the tired but true "Back to the Basics") cause something as simple as keeping proper spacing during a patrol can save lives ( I can think of one incident where my buddy said that proper spacing during a patrol saved his life when a comrade stepped on a APM).  Reaction to enemy ambush, and other various small things (not always relying on assests etc).  Don't get me wrong we were VERY WELL TRAINED and the training program works, and we did learn before we left,  it just needs some more tweaking.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Very helpful. Thanks.

Keep 5 yards (or metres)  

D&B


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I just wanted to bump this thread for those returning.
Bruce


----------



## from darkness lite

Garett said:
			
		

> Is anyone having any luck using hearing protection in combat? I know a few guys with extensive hearing damage due to firing M72s and 84mms in combat. I've now extensively used the Surefire EP3s during live fire exercises but I've been told by those who know that its better to go without on ops. I'd think it would be better even if you lose a bit from wearing them, unless you're in certain positions in the formation.



Although my situation over in Kandahar was different than the Inf/armoured/arty guys, I bought a pair of "Combat Arms Ear Plugs".  They worked great.... could hear normal noises around me (voices, vehicles, etc) however muffle/deaden gunfire, explosions.  I now use them for hunting an the noise of my rifle firing is minimal.  Although I cannot say for certain, they should fit under PRR.  See link for details.

http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/combatarms-earplugs.html

cheers FDL


----------



## Coldplay

Wow!!! Boondocksaints stuff he's told in this thread have been incredible!


----------



## darmil

from darkness lite,   I had those overseas we got them free there was a huge bag of them.I never used them just put them in my pocket can't believe they are 15 bucks that's a rip off!!


----------



## Sethekis

I'm just going into training soon and was just reading some stuff and stumbled upon this thread. BDS great info, really.. Always great to hear what's really going on over there.  This is making the wait 10x harder!!
Can't wait to be out there! 

Keep on posting guys, this thread is great and very informative.


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

Garett said:
			
		

> Is anyone having any luck using hearing protection in combat? I know a few guys with extensive hearing damage due to firing M72s and 84mms in combat. I've now extensively used the Surefire EP3s during live fire exercises but I've been told by those who know that its better to go without on ops. I'd think it would be better even if you lose a bit from wearing them, unless you're in certain positions in the formation.



The biggest issue with hearing protection, is when on the ground yes you have a PRR so in that ear protection is irrelevant.  As for the other ear unless you have those super expensive electronic sound dampeners its difficult to hear any situational orders that are not being transmitted over comms.  I didn't use any ear protection on 01-06 as a c9 gunner and yeah my hearing suffered a little but nothing serious.  My advice, try out some recommended protection and see if it works for you, if not roll the dice with hearing loss.


----------



## RHFC_piper

Charlie dont surf said:
			
		

> The biggest issue with hearing protection, is when on the ground yes you have a PRR so in that ear protection is irrelevant.  As for the other ear unless you have those super expensive electronic sound dampeners its difficult to hear any situational orders that are not being transmitted over comms.  I didn't use any ear protection on 01-06 as a c9 gunner and yeah my hearing suffered a little but nothing serious.  My advice, try out some recommended protection and see if it works for you, if not roll the dice with hearing loss.




I think it comes down to what works best for you.  I used hearing protection in battle on 3-06, but we didn't use PRRs (they didn't work)... I really only kept one ear plug in on the right side.  My logic was; if we got hit with anything that would be loud enough to deafen me, it would only be on my left side and I could take out my right ear plug and still hear orders...  It worked for the most part.  But, like I said, it really comes down to what works for you; if it's effective and comfortable and doesn't interfere with your job, I would suggest hearing protection.

The only time I really wore both ear plugs was on road moves in the back of the LAV.  I wore hearing protection, BEWs and a boxers mouth guard (when we traveled through IED/ambush ally)... the reason being; when we watched videos and got reports from IED attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the points that came back was; the troops who were otherwise relatively uninjured (or killed) in an IED blast, were either disoriented or knocked out by the concussion. Some of the minor injuries reported included blown eardrums, eye-fragment injuries and knocked-out teeth... As minor as loosing teeth may seem, it may be enough to send you home or render you combat ineffective for a while.  

Just my $.02


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I think it comes down to what works best for you.  I used hearing protection in battle on 3-06, but we didn't use PRRs (they didn't work)... I really only kept one ear plug in on the right side.  My logic was; if we got hit with anything that would be loud enough to deafen me, it would only be on my left side and I could take out my right ear plug and still hear orders...  It worked for the most part.  But, like I said, it really comes down to what works for you; if it's effective and comfortable and doesn't interfere with your job, I would suggest hearing protection.
> 
> The only time I really wore both ear plugs was on road moves in the back of the LAV.  I wore hearing protection, BEWs and a boxers mouth guard (when we traveled through IED/ambush ally)... the reason being; when we watched videos and got reports from IED attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the points that came back was; the troops who were otherwise relatively uninjured (or killed) in an IED blast, were either disoriented or knocked out by the concussion. Some of the minor injuries reported included blown eardrums, eye-fragment injuries and knocked-out teeth... As minor as loosing teeth may seem, it may be enough to send you home or render you combat ineffective for a while.
> 
> Just my $.02



I tried to wear ear plugs they issued to us when i was employed as a turret gunner in a gun truck but after a while i just tossed them.  The mouth guard is a nice touch tho, smart idea.


----------



## RHFC_piper

Charlie dont surf said:
			
		

> I tried to wear ear plugs they issued to us when i was employed as a turret gunner in a gun truck but after a while i just tossed them.  The mouth guard is a nice touch tho, smart idea.



I can understand not wearing earplugs if you're in a position, in a vehicle, where you need to hear what's around you and orders (ie. turret, driver, cc, bird gunner, etc).. as well, you're usually wearing a head set anyway (for driver, gunner, cc), or just need to hear... But if you're just a dismount in the back of the LAV... It's not like you can have a decent conversation in the back of those things anyway.

As for the mouth guard; I wanted to come home with all my teeth, and not in a doggy bag.


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I can understand not wearing earplugs if you're in a position, in a vehicle, where you need to hear what's around you and orders (ie. turret, driver, cc, bird gunner, etc).. as well, you're usually wearing a head set anyway (for driver, gunner, cc), or just need to hear... But if you're just a dismount in the back of the LAV... It's not like you can have a decent conversation in the back of those things anyway.
> 
> As for the mouth guard; I wanted to come home with all my teeth, and not in a doggy bag.



no doubt  ;D


----------



## PhilB

See, I guess I am somewhat different. We got issued the surefire earplugs on 1-08 and I LOVED them. I wouldnt wear one under my PRR, just on my right side. I wore it anytime we left the wire, whether mounted or dismounted. I found I had no issues hearing, and it really cut down load wpn signature. The only time that I found any issues was a couple times firing an M72 from inside a room (FUCKING LOUD!). I think it is all personal preference.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Charlie dont surf said:
			
		

> I didn't use any ear protection on 01-06 as a c9 gunner and yeah my hearing suffered a little but nothing serious.  :



Now I would _never_ give advice on "things" over there, however, protecting your hearing is vital to any future endeavours you may have. 

I'd really love to be able to engage in a conversation over background noise but.........


----------



## RHFC_piper

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now I would _never_ give advice on "things" over there, however, protecting your hearing is vital to any future endeavours you may have.
> 
> I'd really love to be able to engage in a conversation over background noise but.........




I am inclined to agree with Bruce on this.   A lot of troops subscribe to the "suck it up and take it" mentality when it comes to PPE (BEWs, Ear pro, etc.) but you have to look at it like this; if you lose your hearing in battle, you're fairly useless to the section/platoon and you're going home.  If you lose your hearing down the road because of hearing injuries in Afghanistan, you will be useless to the CF and probably medically released.  It's not worth "tough it out" now if you're going to be hosed in the future... Would you really want to be release from the forces, a job you may potentially love, because of your hearing category... because you didn't wear hearing protection during operation, ex or ranges?

But, with that said; if you can't do your job effectively with it, then you have to choose mission over man (in operational theater).  If wearing ear protection means you wont hear the word of command, or anything else you should be listening for, and there's the potential that this may put the mission or the members of your section at risk, then you it really does come down to mission before man...  Otherwise, you're really just hurting yourself in the long run.

Either way, it's been said a million times before; personal preference.  But consider the long run.


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I am inclined to agree with Bruce on this.   A lot of troops subscribe to the "suck it up and take it" mentality when it comes to PPE (BEWs, Ear pro, etc.) but you have to look at it like this; if you lose your hearing in battle, you're fairly useless to the section/platoon and you're going home.  If you lose your hearing down the road because of hearing injuries in Afghanistan, you will be useless to the CF and probably medically released.  It's not worth "tough it out" now if you're going to be hosed in the future... Would you really want to be release from the forces, a job you may potentially love, because of your hearing category... because you didn't wear hearing protection during operation, ex or ranges?
> 
> But, with that said; if you can't do your job effectively with it, then you have to choose mission over man (in operational theater).  If wearing ear protection means you wont hear the word of command, or anything else you should be listening for, and there's the potential that this may put the mission or the members of your section at risk, then you it really does come down to mission before man...  Otherwise, you're really just hurting yourself in the long run.
> 
> Either way, it's been said a million times before; personal preference.  But consider the long run.



Agreed


----------



## geo

In the end... it's your body and no amount of Pension compensation will give you back your hearing, eyesight OR teeth.....
Take care of yourself - cause there are no spare parts for your body / no exchanges / no refunds


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Back on topic, folks.


----------



## RHFC_piper

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Back on topic, folks.



I think this all still relates to the topic at hand...  In fact, I believe this train of thought is very important for troops about to deploy; take care of you body.

This should be a huge factor in deciding which kit you're going to employ.  The RSM of my Regiment (who is currently deployed) makes a very good point in regards to kit; You choose to be uncomfortable.   This could also be modified to; you choose to put yourself at risk of injury.  When selecting which kit you believe will best suit your task in theater, I believe it is essential to consider your personal safety... even if hearing seems minor.

As I've said before, the "suck it up" mentality can only go so far in operations.  PPE should be considered as essential to the soldiers individual mission as their weapon system... why? because PPE ensures that minor injuries do not prevent the individual soldier from fulfilling their task within the overall mission.  Failing to complete a mission because Pte. Bloggins can't see to shoot due to a bit of dust in the eye, or because Cpl. Junk can't hear the word of command due partial deafness from firing an M72 is definitely a good enough reason, in my book, to wear PPE.

Part of this logic is selecting the PPE which will protect you while allowing you to do your job.  We have no choice when it comes to Ballistic Armour (and after some research, ours isn't all that bad) or helmet, and some tours have been picky about BEWs, but no one has said much about hearing protection, as far as I know... Since it's optional, perhaps it's a good idea to try some different types out, during training, and see what works best for you... If you find hearing protection to be a hindrance, then, by all means, do what will best suit you in doing your job/task...  Just don't jeopardize the mission or your peers lives over something as minor as hearing protection.

Anyway... just a little rant... sorry.


Back to the lesson learned.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Piper, my post was in reference to already deleted stuff about growing new body parts.

Taking care of oneself is a Lesson Learned, IMO.


----------



## RHFC_piper

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Piper, my post was in reference to already deleted stuff about growing new body parts.
> 
> Taking care of oneself is a Lesson Learned, IMO.



Ah... seen.

Good stuff.


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> I think this all still relates to the topic at hand...  In fact, I believe this train of thought is very important for troops about to deploy; take care of you body.
> 
> This should be a huge factor in deciding which kit you're going to employ.  The RSM of my Regiment (who is currently deployed) makes a very good point in regards to kit; You choose to be uncomfortable.   This could also be modified to; you choose to put yourself at risk of injury.  When selecting which kit you believe will best suit your task in theater, I believe it is essential to consider your personal safety... even if hearing seems minor.
> 
> As I've said before, the "suck it up" mentality can only go so far in operations.  PPE should be considered as essential to the soldiers individual mission as their weapon system... why? because PPE ensures that minor injuries do not prevent the individual soldier from fulfilling their task within the overall mission.  Failing to complete a mission because Pte. Bloggins can't see to shoot due to a bit of dust in the eye, or because Cpl. Junk can't hear the word of command due partial deafness from firing an M72 is definitely a good enough reason, in my book, to wear PPE.
> 
> Part of this logic is selecting the PPE which will protect you while allowing you to do your job.  We have no choice when it comes to Ballistic Armour (and after some research, ours isn't all that bad) or helmet, and some tours have been picky about BEWs, but no one has said much about hearing protection, as far as I know... Since it's optional, perhaps it's a good idea to try some different types out, during training, and see what works best for you... If you find hearing protection to be a hindrance, then, by all means, do what will best suit you in doing your job/task...  Just don't jeopardize the mission or your peers lives over something as minor as hearing protection.
> 
> Anyway... just a little rant... sorry.
> 
> 
> Back to the lesson learned.



On the topic of body armor......

As anyone in the combat arms knows, the ballistic plates we get issued are junk.  but check this guys stuff out

www.inventortroy.com

now that stuff would be very helpfull in the sand box, and im sure would save alot of lives.


----------



## Teflon

> As anyone in the combat arms knows, the ballistic plates we get issued are junk.



I havn`t done any research on it, but I`m combat arms and I know of one fellow from my tour (1-06) that might argue this point as his performed as advertised against an AK round. There might be better or lighter or whatever-er plates out there but I wouldn`t go so far as to say our`s are junk as that would indicate they don`t do as they are suppose to which I have seen that they do.

IMHO - far from the best possible but not junk


----------



## When_in_doubt_rack_out

Teflon said:
			
		

> I havn`t done any research on it, but I`m combat arms and I know of one fellow from my tour (1-06) that might argue this point as his performed as advertised against an AK round. There might be better or lighter or whatever-er plates out there but I wouldn`t go so far as to say our`s are junk as that would indicate they don`t do as they are suppose to which I have seen that they do.
> 
> IMHO - far from the best possible but not junk



by me saying "junk" i mean one round and the structural integrity has been sacrificed and the plate will no longer stop rounds.  Compare our plates to the plate demos on the link i previously posted.


----------



## Garett

I'm pretty sure it was our plates they used at the demo at CFSAC this year where they shot it over and over with a Lee Enfield .303 without any penetrations. There are plates that are lighter, thinner and a have a higher protection level though. More then better plates we need a vest that is cut to move with our body and ventilate better. Its only a matter of time before we're wearing side SAPI plates, hopefully they don't just bastardize the current vest to make it work.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Some relevant beta from the Jar Heads... bless 'em

Marines Lighten Up On Protection

January 5, 2009: U.S. Marine Corps has ordered that it's standard MTV protective vests be made lighter and more flexible. This came after growing complaints from the troops, who have flooded message boards with bad-news stories of how their heavy and restrictive "flak jackets" have put them in danger during combat, A year ago, in an initial response to those complaints, the Marine Corps gave combat commanders the authority to allow their troops to go into action without some, or all, of their protective equipment. The marines tend to be more innovative, and use more initiative, in matters like this. Even so, senior marine officers had been putting off making this decision. That is a form of good news to the junior officers, who actually get shot at, because it meant the brass were finally willing to put their careers on the line, and give the combat commanders the authority to have troops shed armor when the situation calls for it. 

Most of the problems came about when marines began receiving a new protective vest, the Scalable Plate Carrier (SPC), in 2007. This one was a little lighter, but a lot less bulky, one (MTV, or Modular Tactical vest)  introduced in 2004. First it went to Afghanistan , where moving up and down hills is a lot more strenuous than the generally flat terrain of Iraq . But marines still complained about the 80,000 MTV  vests that had been issued, which are considered  too heavy and restrictive. Only about 5,000 SPC vests have been issued.

All this is the result of a six year old debate in the infantry community over how much body armor is actually needed. There are times when the troops have to move fast (as when chasing down a sniper). But the senior commanders are under a lot of pressure to keep friendly casualties down, so they tend to insist that the troops wear all their armor all the time. Despite this, some subordinate commanders look the other way when troops shed their armor, or parts of it, to temporarily to get some needed speed. Over the last few years, pressure from the media and politicians has caused several additional items to be added to the standard protective vest. This was welcomed by reservists doing a lot of convoy duty, but not by infantry running around after the enemy. The latest protective vests have a quick release feature, that makes it easier to get the vest off, and back on again. 

Many soldiers and marines point out that the SOCOM operators (Special Forces and SEALs) will sometimes go into action without their protective vests. Again, that is done because completion of the mission is more important than covering your ass when a reporter goes after you for "unnecessary casualties." 

Many of the troops are willing to take the risk, because they believe, for example, that taking down a sniper when you have the chance, is worth it. If you don't catch the guy, he will be back in action the next day, kill American troops. All this is another example of the fact that "victory" is defined differently, depending on what your rank is.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20090105.aspx


----------



## geo

goes to show.... we're not the only ones griping about the vests....


----------



## The Bread Guy

<slight rewind-highjack>

Re:  hearing conservation in combat, looks like DRDC is seeking someone to look specifically into the issue....

</slight rewind-highjack>

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...


----------



## freeze_time311

Example...


http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/12/24/year-in-pictures/afghanistan/

U.S. Marine Sgt. William Olas Bee flinches after nearly being hit by Taliban gunfire in Helmand province. (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS) Maclean's 2008 Year in Pictures


----------



## RHFC_piper

Freeze said:
			
		

> Example...
> 
> 
> http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/12/24/year-in-pictures/afghanistan/
> 
> U.S. Marine Sgt. William Olas Bee flinches after nearly being hit by Taliban gunfire in Helmand province. (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS) Maclean's 2008 Year in Pictures



This is why PPE (specifically BEW, hearing protection and helmet) are worn... situation pending, of course.


That's an amazing picture, btw.


----------



## leroi

This vignette by Graeme Wood caught my attention for its realism--could _almost_ taste the grit of the sand and feel the soldier's frustration when I read it. Features Captain Sean Wilson of the Royal Canadian Regiment:

Lessons Learned: Graeme Wood, The Walrus Magazine, November 2009






The Afghan called Teacher is deep in Taliban country, crouching halfway up a mountainside at dawn, listening for the approach of a US Army Kiowa attack helicopter. Teacher has huddled with his AK-47, pressed against a rock and keeping lookout, many times before. But he has never done so while eating cheese tortellini and trail mix.

Teacher has picked out one of the halal rations offered by his employer, the Canadian military. A jihadi never ate so well. Back in the 1980s, when the helicopters that zoomed overhead aimed their guns at him, Teacher ate little other than bread, fruit, and on special occasions a pot of rice. Now he translates Dari and Pashto for a small Canadian battle unit that trains the ragtag Afghan National Army. The US helicopters fly overhead in support. As an interpreter and counterinsurgency sherpa, Teacher advises Sean Wilson, a wiry captain from the Royal Canadian Regiment, and shadows him on raids, searches of suspected Taliban hideouts, and patrols through mined and booby-trapped defiles.

Today Teacher and Wilson are leading an Afghan-Canadian patrol up the tight switchbacks above Darvishan village, just northwest of Kandahar. Taliban hide and use mountain compounds here as bases for attacks on the relatively government-friendly district centre below. Wilson’s Afghan counterpart, on this day Captain Faizullah, leads his men from the rear, and like them he seems frustrated by the strain of the summer morning hike.

Not a shot has been fired. It is thirty-nine degrees, and the Canadians are wheezing under their packs and weapons. Teacher is in his late forties, so he wheezes a little, too. But he still scampers, goatlike, nearly as spryly as soldiers half his age. This is in part because he carries only slightly more than he ever did: a Kalashnikov, a radio, and nowadays a self-heating ration, body armour, and a fancy Camelbak hydration system.

Unlike Wilson, whose French and English earn him blank glares from Afghans, Teacher speaks the languages and can extract tips about where bombs and booby traps lie. Moreover, he has an uncanny eye of his own. “He just has a sense,” Wilson says. “He knows where the Taliban are going to set an IED. He’ll just stop and point at a spot on the ground and say, ‘That doesn’t look right.’ ” Wilson says that sense has saved the group’s lives many times over... continued on link


----------



## Kirkhill

Lazarus strikes again.

British army report in the Telegraph

Too much kit, too much heat.....bad decisions, bad outcomes.




> Britain's 'donkey' soldiers are losing the war in Afghanistan
> A senior Army officer has warned that Britain risks losing the war in Afghanistan because commanders are more concerned with protecting soldiers than defeating the Taliban.
> 
> The officer claims that by the end of a routine patrol soldiers struggle to make basic tactical judgements because they are physically and mentally exhausted Photo: JANE MINGAY  By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent 9:00PM BST 16 Apr 2011
> Follow Sean Rayment on Twitter
> 
> 24 Comments
> Attacking the British strategy in Helmand, the officer claims that soldiers are now so laden with equipment they are unable to launch effective attacks against insurgents.
> 
> The controversial account of situation in Afghanistan appears in the latest issue British Army Review, a restricted military publication designed to provoke debate within the Army.
> 
> Writing anonymously, the author reveals that the Taliban have dubbed British soldiers "donkeys" who move in a tactical "waddle" because they now carry an average weight of 110lbs worth of equipment into battle.
> 
> The consequences of the strategy, he says, is that "our infantry find it almost impossible to close with the enemy because the bad guys are twice as mobile".
> 
> The officer claims that by the end of a routine four hour patrol, soldiers struggle to make basic tactical judgements because they are physically and mentally exhausted.
> 
> Related Articles
> Suicide bomber kills five Nato soldiers
> 16 Apr 2011
> Soldier's diaries: six months on tour
> 09 Apr 2011
> Para leaders in Afghanistan face the sack
> 08 Apr 2011
> "We're getting to a point where we are losing as many men making mistakes because they are exhausted from carrying armour (and the things that go with it) than are saved by it," he warns.
> 
> Britain's military's command structure in Afghanistan also comes in for criticism and is described as a "bloated over complex system that sucks the life out of operations" and where "decision and action get lost in Chinese whispers and Chinese parliaments that turn most of operational staff 'work' into operational staff waste".
> 
> In Helmand, a quarter of the 9,500 British troops deployed are involved in management or management support roles in various headquarters, according to the report's author. In Kabul, the combined strength of the US and Nato headquarters amount to more than 4,000 personnel.
> 
> The report is entitled "Donkeys Led by Lions", with combat troops likened to pack animals and headquarters staff to "fat, lazy" lions.
> 
> The author states that while researching the article he discovered that in the early 1900s, New Zealand loggers limited mule and pony loads to 128lbs, a sixth of their body weight while working in temperatures of 25C.
> 
> Even seaside donkeys, the author states, carry just over a quarter of their body weight and rarely work in temperatures above 30C. By contrast, British soldiers are expected to fight in temperatures of over 40C carrying 65 per cent of their body weight.
> 
> As the threat facing British soldiers has changed so has the composition of body armour, which now consists of front, rear and side plates designed to protect soldiers from small arms fire and IED blasts but weighs around 40lbs.
> 
> In addition to body armour, a typical soldier on patrol in Afghanistan will carry: a weapon (10 to 20lbs); radio, batteries electronic equipment (40lbs); water (10lbs); ammunition (20lbs); Javelin missile (25lbs). Soldiers will also be required to wear eye, groin, ear and knee protection as well as gloves and a helmet.
> 
> The officer adds: "A straw poll of three multi-tour companies found only two platoons that had successfully closed with an ambushing enemy. Our unscientific poll might be showing exceptions but rumour control suggests that the lack of closure is common. Some soldiers only do firefights because they know manoeuvre is a waste of effort when they're carrying so much weight.
> 
> "The result is that apart from a few big operations where we have used machines to encircle the enemy there are so few uninjured insurgents captured in contact that it's simply not worth recording."
> 
> But some of the most stinging criticism was saved for the headquarters running the campaign.
> 
> The author wrote: "Lions, contrary to Victorian opinion, aren't brave or noble; they are fat, lazy creatures that lie around all day licking themselves.
> 
> "They get others to do the dirty work and they have a penchant for infanticide. We are not saying our commanders are fat, lazy child killers, far from it, but it has reached a point where their headquarters are."
> 
> The larger that headquarters become the more the staff there force soldiers into wasteful activity which results in lots of people "who aren't doing anything about the enemy; they aren't even thinking about the enemy; they're thinking about how to make a pretty picture of how they think someone else ought to think about the enemy."
> 
> The article also states that British headquarters deployed in Afghanistan now produced a terabyte of written orders and reports every month – equivalent to hundreds of thousands of documents.
> 
> The report continues: "In one Afghan headquarters, it took a man nine days to read one day's worth of email exchanges – and he didn't have to open any attachments.
> 
> "The further we get back from the patrol base the worse the problem becomes. By the time we get back to the UK there are more people managing the operation than are actually deployed."
> 
> The article concludes by reminding readers of past conflicts and asking whether soldiers of a previous generation would have been able to march across the Falklands carrying "all the extra kit we have now?"
> 
> The officer writes: "Consider what the logistical and tactical impact of that extra 45lbs for Burma, Dunkirk or Normandy. How would these operations have played out if it took weeks to plan minor operations.
> 
> "If we don't work out now how we are going to lose that weight we will do the old trick of starting the next war by repeating the mistakes of this one."
> 
> A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "The issue of weight carried by soldiers on operations is well recognised and work is constantly under way to reduce the amount carried by soldiers.
> 
> "Since June 2010 a number of weight savings measures have reduced the weight carried by soldiers by up to 26lbs."


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## OneMissionataTime

Freeze said:
			
		

> Example...
> 
> 
> http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/12/24/year-in-pictures/afghanistan/
> 
> U.S. Marine Sgt. William Olas Bee flinches after nearly being hit by Taliban gunfire in Helmand province. (GORAN TOMASEVIC/REUTERS) Maclean's 2008 Year in Pictures



Oh man.. The response that photo is quite funny... But unrealistic.


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## daftandbarmy

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Lazarus strikes again.
> 
> British army report in the Telegraph
> 
> Too much kit, too much heat.....bad decisions, bad outcomes.



Basic load of a British infantryman in Belfast ca. 1986: Beret, flak vest, belt, water bottle, 5 mags, rifle, notebook (plus radio or ECM as required). Troops had a bergen packed that we would deliver to them if they got stuck on a longer term cordon or some other op. Flak vest was worn in urban areas due to higher likelihood of bricks and bottles, sniper attack and concentrated effects of blast channeled down streets etc. Wet weather plan? Get wet.... the flak vest kept you warm-ish. 'Mobile, agile and hostile' was the motto.

Basic load for same period in South Armagh: Beret (no flak vest) 5 mags, patrol day pack (rain gear, scoff for the day, jumper), water bottle, rifle/GPMG/M203, radio/ECM. For multi-day ops in the cuds add bergen with basha, doss bag, 2 - 3 days scoff & batteries, some extra ammo, surveillance gear. Longer ops requiring resupply would be supported from the base through covert vehicle DOP, heli DOP, or dead/live letter boxes. I remember being asked if we wanted to trial flak vests in S. Armagh and politely telling Bn HQ to eff off as it was ridiculous expecting troops to wear it while clambering through the Irish 'bocage'. Patrol dress in urban areas like Crossmaglem was similar to the Belfast example.

I've talked to guys who fought in Rhodesia & South Africa and they weren't much different.

And now it seems that the troops are being loaded down like Xmas trees as part of an elaborate butt covering exercise. But I would suggest there's a difference in the level of political risk countries are willing to take when fighting a COIN campaign in their own country vs. doing someone else a favour.


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## Infanteer

I went through my gear with my NCOs and we tried to figure out what was "useless stuff" we were forced to carry.  To be honest, there really wasn't much useless stuff.

I went through my gear and I had:

- batteries
- ammo (not an excessive amount, either - 7 mags and a belt of 7.62 link or an M72)
- 1 frag and 3 smoke (Comd needs smoke)
- water
- emergency ration
- MBitr
- AN/PVS-14 MNVG
- Rifle
- First aid kit
- Lightweight blanket (found out the hard way to always have one)
- Map and small notebook for order, etc.

I was still extremely burdened on patrols.  My signaller, weapons guys and engineers had even more weight.  None of these guys were carrying useless gear.  For all the critics chanting "we are too burdened down", what do I get rid of - the batteries for the radio?  Water?  Support weapon ammo?

When we looked at it, we realized that there was no getting away from the weight - if you are going to reduce the soldier's load, you need to re-engineer the essentials, not eliminate them.  The three heaviest things for a soldier in Afghanistan are:

1.  Body armour - no doubt about it, this is by far the heaviest and most cumbersome piece.  This is a tough one, because there are political aspects to it as well (no commander wants to send a soldier home - and no government wants a casualty - who would have been alive with a kevlar insert somewhere).  Still, it is bulky, restrictive and fatiguing.  The single greatest improvement to reducing loads on soldiers is to develop new lighter protective technologies;

2.  Water - There is no getting around this one either.  Take a hot environment like Afghanistan and add body armour and you need lots of water.  Water is heavy.  Using local stuff is a serious risk, especially in the greenzones where the humans dump everything into the ground.  Reduce the armour load, reduce the water requirement.

3.  Batteries - Nothing like carrying a brick for a radio that is the same size as the ones carried into Normandy that was designed in the 70s, built in the 80s and fielded in the 90s.  MBITRs were generally as effective, if not more effective than 522s, but were in short supply.  As a result, soldiers carried big radios and big bulky batteries.


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## Sythen

Infanteer said:
			
		

> The three heaviest things for a soldier in Afghanistan are:
> 
> 1.  Body armour - no doubt about it, this is by far the heaviest and most cumbersome piece.  This is a tough one, because there are political aspects to it as well (no commander wants to send a soldier home - and no government wants a casualty - who would have been alive with a kevlar insert somewhere).  Still, it is bulky, restrictive and fatiguing.  The single greatest improvement to reducing loads on soldiers is to develop new lighter protective technologies;
> 
> 2.  Water - There is no getting around this one either.  Take a hot environment like Afghanistan and add body armour and you need lots of water.  Water is heavy.  Using local stuff is a serious risk, especially in the greenzones where the humans dump everything into the ground.  Reduce the armour load, reduce the water requirement.
> 
> 3.  Batteries - Nothing like carrying a brick for a radio that is the same size as the ones carried into Normandy that was designed in the 70s, built in the 80s and fielded in the 90s.  MBITRs were generally as effective, if not more effective than 522s, but were in short supply.  As a result, soldiers carried big radios and big bulky batteries.



Need to add PCM to this list. I carried it for the second half on my tour basically, and it sucks. Not only is it more heavy than a radio, it generates heat like no tomorrow. Plus, someone else needs to carry spare batteries (10lbs each).. And don't even get me started on the manpack it has to be carried in.. Thing was a nightmare to get comfortable..

Edit to add: Also, while carrying the PCM, you can't carry your own backpack so everyone else is stuck carrying your water as well as the extra ammo you would normally carry. Best I was able to do was strap a camel back to the top, cause anywhere else and it will block the exhaust fans causing it to melt the bladder.. (seen it happen twice)

I disagree with you about the flak vest. I didn't find it that bad. Might just be me, but I never really heard anyone complain about it either and we had days when we patrolled for upwards of 14 hours in the summer.. The issued tac vests are where my biggest complaint was, and due to a gong show before tour everyone put off getting one of their own.. So I did my first month with that thing.. Try carrying 8 mags and 8 M203 rounds in that thing.. Its just foolish.


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## PuckChaser

Infanteer said:
			
		

> 3.  Batteries - Nothing like carrying a brick for a radio that is the same size as the ones carried into Normandy that was designed in the 70s, built in the 80s and fielded in the 90s.  MBITRs were generally as effective, if not more effective than 522s, but were in short supply.  As a result, soldiers carried big radios and big bulky batteries.



I think this is one area we can get the most effective and quickest change, as there are lighter/longer lasting batteries out there. I hope you guys at least had the lithium batteries if you were using 177F or 522, probably about 1/3 the weight and last far longer in higher temps. I can't imagine having to carry a 522 with 6x BB-390 (newer, heavier batteries) and then start handing out more batteries to guys in a section who are already carrying ammo/water.


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## Infanteer

Sythen said:
			
		

> Need to add PCM to this list. I carried it for the second half on my tour basically, and it sucks. Not only is it more heavy than a radio, it generates heat like no tomorrow. Plus, someone else needs to carry spare batteries (10lbs each).. And don't even get me started on the manpack it has to be carried in.. Thing was a nightmare to get comfortable.



That was to me a Comd's decision - I only took it out if we were deliberately seeking a suspected or known IED.  Other than that, it was too much to take for just 1-2 men to have coverage.



> I disagree with you about the flak vest. I didn't find it that bad. Might just be me, but I never really heard anyone complain about it either and we had days when we patrolled for upwards of 14 hours in the summer.. The issued tac vests are where my biggest complaint was, and due to a gong show before tour everyone put off getting one of their own.. So I did my first month with that thing.. Try carrying 8 mags and 8 M203 rounds in that thing.. Its just foolish.



Well, I didn't hear anyone say it was light.  It is the single heaviest piece of equipment we carry.  If you cut the 30+ pounds down by 10-15 with new technology, you are making significant weight gains.

As for the tacvest, none of my soldiers wore it.


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## Sythen

Infanteer said:
			
		

> That was to me a Comd's decision - I only took it out if we were deliberately seeking a suspected or known IED.  Other than that, it was too much to take for just 1-2 men to have coverage.



Unfortunately, the area we were in had an extremely high concentration of IED's. We found/were hit by too many not to bring it every time, so its sort of a ground dictates on this one I guess.. Regardless, talking about improved technology some of the guys were saying the Brits and Americans had a much smaller version that weighed like 5lbs.. They just had more of them like one per fire team.. Would've been nice!

On a slightly different note than combat loads, one thing our section commander had us start doing was bringing a ladder with us on patrols.. It made traversing grape rows so much easier, and in urban settings we could put a fire team on a roof, or avoid the main paths completely. We only stopped carrying it because the ANA and AUP were worried we would use it to watch some women in the compounds.. But until then it was weight I didn't mind carrying at all cause in the long run it saved so much energy and effort.


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## MikeL

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Well, I didn't hear anyone say it was light.  It is the single heaviest piece of equipment we carry.  If you cut the 30+ pounds down by 10-15 with new technology, you are making significant weight gains.



I didn't find the body armour(minus attachments) to bad, but lighter is alwasy better, especially when conducting dismounted patrols.  I never wore the body armour with the attachments so I can't comment on how it is with the neck and gauntlets added.   Seems the order of the day over there(going by pictures) is add on all the protection you can and accept limiting your speed/mobility.  IMO we shoudl go with what the US Army and Marines have with their scalable plate carriers.  Plate Carriers for pers conducting dismounted ops and the body armour with attachments as needed for mounted pers, or at the very least not make the wearing of the neck and arm gaunlets manditory or leave it to commanders discretion.


----------



## Shock

I came across an interesting product called Dyneema. It is less weight than steel inserts and capable of stoping AK47 rounds.

http://dyneemamatters.com/inserts?category_id=36


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## Illegio

Dyneema, or Spectra as it also known, has been around for quite some time already. The issue, as I understand it, is that it is laminated in sheets to form body armour, and those laminated sheets have a tendency to break down when exposed to high and/or fluctuating temperatures. As you can imagine, this is something of an issue in Afghanistan.


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## KevinB

I went thru several different armor configurations while in Afghan and Iraq.
Protech LIV





Heavy but nice triple curved plate

Dyneema




Light, but does not stop M855/C77 inside 25m -- or 7.62x54R APIT, also not triple curved so not as 'form fitting' awkward to shoot pistol with.
Major delamination issue after 5 months of combined usage (Iraq and Afghan)

Dragon Skin (shudder)




 Heavy, but form fitting, disk migration major issue





ESAPI LIV


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumping with a recent ATIP release of a redacted lessons learned report - political scientist commentary below:


> Several years ago, I had heard in various bars in the Byward Market that the Canadian government under Stephen Harper had engaged in a serious Lessons Learned exercise about Afghanistan.  I heard that the document was buried (I used the last scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark to illustrate).  I tried an Access to Information Request in January of 2013, but got rejected because the document was viewed as "advice to cabinet" and containing sensitive information about Canada's allies.  I thought this was hogwash, so I appealed.  I got the document just before my recent trip to Brazil (here it is),* so I didn't have time to process it.
> 
> * I was so enthused that I wrote all over my one copy of the document, sorry.  Had I realized that I would be posting it, I would have copied it and then written on the copy.  My bad.
> 
> 
> Although I have other stuff I need to do, I got inspired by the new discussion about Canada returning to Afghanistan (unlikely), so I will review the document here.  You will probably be as underwhelmed as I was.  The good news is that my book remains alone as a real effort to learn lessons about the Canadian mission.
> 
> The document is only ten pages, which means that it is only a shallow cut at best, and the first two or three pages are intro and context, not lessons.  Thus, there really is little text for such a complicated mission.  So, I will go through the document below... it shouldn't take too long.
> 
> The intro is fine--500 interviews from participants across government and across all levels is swell.  If this is the only document out of that work, then lots and lots of stuff was left behind, alas.  The Manley Report gets a heap of notice on the second page and rightfully so.  It produced a "Transformational Agenda" which, I would suggest, is a bit much.  Yes, stuff got better but it did not transform the bureaucratic politics that determined how the mission was conducted before 2008 and how much of it was conducted after 2008.  This reads too much like cheerleading and not enough like lesson learning.
> 
> The first lesson--the need for strategic assessment and direction.  Absolutely and one reason why any advocacy of Canada returning to Afghanistan should hesitate unless they have a clear strategy based on the real challenges. This leads into more back-patting--arguing that the establishment of the six priorities became everyone's priorities.  Well, everyone but the military's (who were focused on counterinsurgency, which was not one of the six priorities) and CIDA's (reluctant all the way along).  The document does acknowledge "inconsistencies between Canadian objectives and those at the international level." The Six Priorities were good as a checklist for telling Canada what was being accomplished so that Canada could leave (they were an exit strategy), but how did they fit into winning the war?  The language here does recognize that the CF were more focused on the combat mission, suggesting how the civ and mil were not on the same page.
> This section has a key lesson:
> "A single, overarching strategy that integrates respective national involvement with that of the international mission would be ideal for ultimate coordination."  Yeah, multilateral warfare is hard and multilateral COIN is really hard.  The recommendation that follows from this is pretty vague and leads to this conclusion:
> "To the extent possible. such assessment and direction should also preface the
> operationalization of any engagement and be aligned with a framework of principles and
> objectives agreed upon by the international community and the host country."
> This is striking--that implicitly, this still puts the aim of the larger effort--the host and the international community second.  To the extent possible?  Hmmm.  This should be the starting point--how Canada helps the effort reach its goals.  But I get the political dynamics--that it is about Canadian interests first, but it is hard to see how Canadian interests are served well when the mission is not tied very firmly to the larger endeavor. In the case of Kandahar, the civilian effort--the six priorities--focused Canada but were mostly detached from winning the war, especially as things evolved.
> 
> The second section focuses on cross-organization integration--the whole of government stuff.  The key lessons here were the creation of a cabinet committee and task force in PCO and the RoCK.  The former is heralded as providing much coordination, which it did as long as the Prime Minister cared about the mission and lended his heft to the person running the task force (David Mulroney at first).  Ok, that last part was my addition.  The RoCK or Representative of Canada in Kandahar is lauded as improving interagency command and control (my caveat: depending on how the Rock and the CAF commander got along--not all got along great--personalities/relationships matter).  Seniority of the appointments is mentioned, but I don't think the RoCKs were all very senior DFAIT (GAC) officials.   I do think the RoCK idea is important and is something that should be applied in future efforts.
> 
> The Interagency planning section has a big problem: DFAIT/the Task Force made its plan in 2008--which schools would be built, etc, and then was done planning. The military kept on planning as it kept on adapting to changing circumstances.  The report admits that  "there were conflicting understandings of how the civilian-military actors in the field ought to interoperate in order to achieve the goals, including who had what roles and responsibilities".  The report goes in to argue that there was success in reaching common understandings at the Provincial Reconstruction Team level in Kandahar.  From all that I heard and learned, I'd agree that the PRT did amazing work to get everyone on the same page.  But that was usually despite the conflicting priorities and decision-processes of the key actors back in Ottawa.
> 
> The report goes on to address cultural differences among the key Canadian organizations that were managed via co-location (those living together in Kandahar learned how the other folks thought) and pre-deployment training.  Absolutely, but the civilians tended to be late to the pre-deployment training since the civilian organizations don't have spare capacity to have people be gone for extended training periods. So, the document calls for a civilian deployment capability, which makes much sense but is unlikely given recent budgets.
> 
> The report then addresses a big challenge: risk management. How to deploy civilians in a dangerous spot?  Protection for the civilians meant less soldiers doing the work that the military valued. The report notes that this meant that the RoCK was not the face of the mission--the commander was. The key lesson here: some force needs to be deployed that is dedicated to protecting the civilians, so that the civilians are not stuck behind the wire when the military is focused on other priorities.
> 
> A paragraph on the international side is redacted.
> 
> The next section focuses on delegation--that CIDA sucked at giving their folks in the field authority to make decisions, which might have led to more adaptation as things changed.  Ok, that's how I put it, but that is what this part is talking about.
> 
> Performance management: how to assess effectiveness.  The report then says how wonderful the six priorities were in providing a common approach.  I am not a fan, as it tied the entire mission to goalposts set in 2008 and thus could not address changes in the battlefield, in the war, and perhaps made adaptation difficult, if not impossible.  Oh, and the reports based on the six priorities were perhaps a smidge overly sunny.  Read the stuff on the prisons, for instance and then remember there were two prison breaks, including one right after an especially sunny report.  Sure, folks can say that the priority of that effort was to make sure there was not abuse in the prisons, but given that the first job of a prison is to keep people inside the prison, some reflection here might have been appropriate.  That we didn't notice that the folks we were training to not beat the detainees might have been suborned by the Taliban.
> 
> And also, of course, not much COIN in the reports.  The lessons here, instead of addressing the need for flexibility and adaptation, focuses on the need to come up with measures (quant and qual).  Perhaps less frequent reporting (hallejuah most folks down range would say, I am sure), the report advocates.  Again, entirely absent from this paragraph on performance management is anything about winning the war.  Oops.  No real cautions here about the problem of measuring inputs or counting outputs and missing outcomes (which is the thing that really needs to be measured).
> 
> The last section addresses "engagement strategy": explaining the mission to Canadians and to the rest of the world.  The report notes that CF casualties and the detainee story dominated the coverage.  The report can't blame Harper for hiding from the mission after 2008, nor that the Conservatives may not have minded the focus on detainees--it allowed them to call Jack Layton Taliban Jack for caring about their human rights.  The media was, of course, focused on the exciting stuff of battles and bloodshed, but with the civvies in the field having their talking points written in Ottawa, of course, the press would spend more effort talking to the soldiers.  They had more interesting stories to tell not just because they involved combat but because they were unfiltered.  Oh, and some of this is alliance-based.  NATO was slow at taking video and getting approval from the members and putting it online.  The Taliban's approval process took much less time.
> 
> The report concludes with a few key sets of lessons based on what I summarized above.  My immediate reaction: meh.  Yes, we need to reduce cultural barriers between agencies, but waiting for a crisis is too late.  I would suggest that the Canadian government learns from the reforms in the US military in the mid-1980s--to get promoted in the US military now beyond Colonel, one needs time at a joint job, working with those in other branches of the military.  It would make sense that the future Director Generals of the various agencies have spent some time working in other agencies--senior DND officials should do time in GAC or Public Safety and vice versa.
> 
> Two last notes (you can see what I scribbled on the document):
> 
> Don't lowball.  Each democracy entered Afghanistan trying to commit as little as possible and all ended up increasing significantly.  Had they started out with what they finished with, the mission might have been more successful.
> Think about winning.  This was and is a war.  What does it take to win?  The words "win" or "war" are never used in this document.  What does that say?
> 
> I, of course, have other lessons, but you will have to read Adapting in the Dust for those.


----------



## jollyjacktar

My lesson learned, don't get sucked into going back.


----------



## daftandbarmy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> My lesson learned, don't get sucked into going back.



Brilliant  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEgqIY7xgtE


----------



## jollyjacktar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Brilliant
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEgqIY7xgtE



That said so much of my mindset back then.  Take a bow daft. :bowing:


----------



## daftandbarmy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That said so much of my mindset back then.  Take a bow daft. :bowing:



Pretty much covers it for a lot of us at various times!


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> My lesson learned, don't get sucked into going back.


 :nod:


----------

