# Civilians in uniform



## Remius (22 Oct 2011)

Ok, teh title is somewhat misleading.  Here is the situation.  A former member is now a public servant conducting essentially the same tasks and job as he was when he was in.  Part of that job was inspections and drill.  Given that he is now a public servant  I'm not sure how appropriate it is for him to be inspecting her majesty's soldiers.  To make matters worse he wears his uniform and carries a pace stick to do it giving the impression that he is still "in rank".  Has anyone ever heard of this?  could someone get permission to do this?  I've gone up my chain and they are asking questions, time , places witnesses etc in order to report this.  I don't doubt his previous service which is considerable but as a civilian...


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## blacktriangle (22 Oct 2011)

Yeah that doesn't sound on to me at all...

Anyway you can get a video of it happening? I could use a laugh. 

I watched someone get jacked up by an NCO who is too fat to fit into their element's dress of the day. This poorly trained and turned out NCO was actually jacking the individual up for the state of their uniform, when the same NCO has actually been given permission to wear more "accommodating" dress (read: CADPAT) because they don't have a fitting uniform.  Not that similar of a situation, but still really made me question if said individual should be in a position to inspect others.


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## brihard (22 Oct 2011)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Ok, teh title is somewhat misleading.  Here is the situation.  A former member is now a public servant conducting essentially the same tasks and job as he was when he was in.  Part of that job was inspections and drill.  Given that he is now a public servant  I'm not sure how appropriate it is for him to be inspecting her majesty's soldiers.  To make matters worse he wears his uniform and carries a pace stick to do it giving the impression that he is still "in rank".  Has anyone ever heard of this?  could someone get permission to do this?  I've gone up my chain and they are asking questions, time , places witnesses etc in order to report this.  I don't doubt his previous service which is considerable but as a civilian...



Utterly inappropriate. A public servant may be appointed over soldiers, but that public servant is NOT a serving member of HM Canadian Forces. Wearing a uniform is not only inappropriate but is illegal, and it's further inappropriate to be enforcing uniquely military discipline. You are not obligated to accept it, and pushing this up your chain as forcefully as you can seems the appropriate course of action.


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## MedCorps (22 Oct 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Wearing a uniform is not only inappropriate but is illegal, and it's further inappropriate to be enforcing uniquely military discipline.



Hold on a sec... lets not drop the term illegal, because it is not illegal for civilians who are authorized to wear combat clothing.  In fact the CF even has a armlet for civilians to wear when they are wearing combats (CADPAT).  See the dress regulations, figure 2-1-1.  

Now inappropriate, especially in teaching drill that is another matter for the masses to debate. 

MC


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## brihard (22 Oct 2011)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Hold on a sec... lets not drop the term illegal, because it is not illegal for civilians who are authorized to wear combat clothing.  In fact the CF even has a armlet for civilians to wear when they are wearing combats (CADPAT).  See the dress regulations, figure 2-1-1.
> 
> Now inappropriate, especially in teaching drill that is another matter for the masses to debate.
> 
> MC



Section 419 of the Criminal Code.

"419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces..." and it goes on with a bunch of other possible criteria...


"...is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction."

Not to say that legal action is what needs to happen here- but he is manifestly in violation of the law if he's wearing a uniform in order to portray himself as something he no longer is.

What *really* should probably happen is whoever his previous uniformed superior was should pull him aside and engage in some brisk one-way conversation, and that should be that.


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## MedCorps (22 Oct 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Section 419 of the Criminal Code.
> 
> "419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,



Ah... thus the real question is... does he have lawful authority.  I do not expect that a former member who became a civil servant just opted to toss back on the uniform in order to teach drill without SOMEONE in lawful authority either implied or inferred allowing him/her to do so.  Stuff like this stands out, and if it has happened more than once in a non-isolated setting where there are people around then someone has to know / approved it.  

What I would suspect that if he did not have lawful authority and took it upon himself/herself to do... I am sure they would do it once and then someone would sort them out in double quick time. 

MC

MC


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## MedCorps (22 Oct 2011)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Note my comment... "who are authorized".
> 
> Ah... thus the real question is... does he/she have lawful authority.  I do not expect that a former member who became a civil servant just opted to toss back on the uniform in order to teach drill without SOMEONE in lawful authority either implied or inferred allowing him/her to do so.  Stuff like this stands out, and if it has happened more than once in a non-isolated setting where there are people around then someone has to know / approved it.
> 
> ...


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## brihard (23 Oct 2011)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Ah... thus the real question is... does he have lawful authority.  I do not expect that a former member who became a civil servant just opted to toss back on the uniform in order to teach drill without SOMEONE in lawful authority either implied or inferred allowing him/her to do so.  Stuff like this stands out, and if it has happened more than once in a non-isolated setting where there are people around then someone has to know / approved it.
> 
> What I would suspect that if he did not have lawful authority and took it upon himself/herself to do... I am sure they would do it once and then someone would sort them out in double quick time.
> 
> ...



"So and so said I could" would not constitute 'lawful authority".  I cannot, offhand, think of a circumstance where anyone *could* lawfully authorize this. Certainly I would submit that anyone who was in long enough to be walking around with a pace stick should not think there's any ambiguity on the matter.


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## medicineman (23 Oct 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> "So and so said I could" would not constitute 'lawful authority".  I cannot, offhand, think of a circumstance where anyone *could* lawfully authorize this. Certainly I would submit that anyone who was in long enough to be walking around with a pace stick should not think there's any ambiguity on the matter.



I would have to suppose that it would depend on the size of the entourage that accompanies their ego.

MM


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## RangerRay (23 Oct 2011)

I may be ignorant, but I can't think of any situation for a civilian, other than a VIP in an honour guard situation, to be inspecting soldiers.


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## PuckChaser (23 Oct 2011)

There's Civilian instructors from Calian that work at CFSCE and help teach DP1 and DP2 courses. Not sure if they inspect troops though...


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## Sig_Des (23 Oct 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's Civilian instructors from Calian that work at CFSCE and help teach DP1 and DP2 courses. Not sure if they inspect troops though...



I don't think I can ever recall them performing inspections, or running drill. Also, they're all contractors, and not public servants (not that I think that matters in the case of drill and ceremonial. IMO, if you're not in uniform (serving, not just wearing) you shouldn't be conducting drill).

Kind of ties into another pet peeve of me that I ran into in Ottawa. I can respect the prior time served and experience of many of the contractors. But they are no longer Tp WO's, SM's or CWOs and should not treat people as such.


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## Robert0288 (23 Oct 2011)

I talked to a couple people this summer who were doing the ACISS DP1/DP2 with civy contractors and they were never inspected (to my knowledge) by them, only their staff.  I guess I seem to be fortunate because I haven't run into any of those civy contractors who are still acting like TP WOs+ either.  Hopefully this trend will continue for the foreseeable future. ;D


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## Franko (23 Oct 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's Civilian instructors from Calian that work at CFSCE and help teach DP1 and DP2 courses. Not sure if they inspect troops though...



They don't. Now if they see something out of place, they will talk to the Crse WO about it.

As for the OP - a civilian doing his old job that he had when he was in - I'd be telling him to cease immediately until clarification on his role in that organization. 

He holds no authority at all IMHO. He was *released* and released all authority when he walked through the door into the sunset.

Regards


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## Remius (23 Oct 2011)

I'm of that opinion as well. So far, after consulting several people as well as some responses from army.ca I can see that this is not on.  I just wanted to cover all bases before proceeding with anything in case there are/were cases similar to this.  I have never encountered this which is why I thought it was strange.  Given the rank he wore I questioned whether he was doing anything wrong because you would think he would know better.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Oct 2011)

The more I read, the more it sounds like a particular ex Infantry MWO that has a penchant for chicken. Many didn't think him right while he served, heaven knows what he's like on the outside now.


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## a78jumper (23 Oct 2011)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Kind of ties into another pet peeve of me that I ran into in Ottawa. I can respect the prior time served and experience of many of the contractors. But they are no longer Tp WO's, SM's or CWOs and should not treat people as such.



Not only Ottawa, try Kandahar (ATCO Frontec Europe) working for someone I knew casually while in......he certainly never took the Major's rank off his shoulders. Arrogant Brit, apparently rubbed people the same way after commisioning in the CF following a career in the RAOC as an NCO.  I just let the whole thing slide as my time there was short, but I certainly would not have tolerated that crap in even the medium term. I suspect he had a lot of problems there as Deputy Project Manager.


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## Tank Troll (24 Oct 2011)

Crantor said:
			
		

> OK, the title is somewhat misleading.  Here is the situation.  A former member is now a public servant conducting essentially the same tasks and job as he was when he was in.  Part of that job was inspections and drill.  Given that he is now a public servant  I'm not sure how appropriate it is for him to be inspecting her majesty's soldiers.  To make matters worse he wears his uniform and carries a pace stick to do it giving the impression that he is still "in rank".  Has anyone ever heard of this?  could someone get permission to do this?  I've gone up my chain and they are asking questions, time , places witnesses etc in order to report this.  I don't doubt his previous service which is considerable but as a civilian...



Are you sure he just didn't retire from the reg force and get hired back on in a class B postion? If he did then he keeps all of his authority and privileges as his old rank, if he has been hired at that rank. He can even keep his origanal cap badge and not belong to a reserve unit. There are several of these guys working in the Armour School.


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## Remius (24 Oct 2011)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Are you sure he just didn't retire from the reg force and get hired back on in a class B postion? If he did then he keeps all of his authority and privileges as his old rank, if he has been hired at that rank. He can even keep his origanal cap badge and not belong to a reserve unit. There are several of these guys working in the Armour School.



He left the reg force and did exactly that a few years ago.  But took his official retirement from the CF in Aug or thereabout.  On the DIN he is listed as a civilian.


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## Remius (24 Oct 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The more I read, the more it sounds like a particular ex Infantry MWO that has a penchant for chicken. Many didn't think him right while he served, heaven knows what he's like on the outside now.



would that particular ex MWO also spit out his false teeth when worked up?  If it's who I think you are referring to, then nio it isn't him.  This is a a someone of a higher rank.  But I've always wondered what that guy (if indeed it is who I think you are talking about) was up to on the other side...


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Oct 2011)

Crantor said:
			
		

> would that particular ex MWO also spit out his false teeth when worked up?  If it's who I think you are referring to, then nio it isn't him.  This is a a someone of a higher rank.  But I've always wondered what that guy (if indeed it is who I think you are talking about) was up to on the other side...



That would be he. Last I heard he was doing some sort of security guard job. Don't know how much truth is in it though.


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## Hammer Sandwich (25 Oct 2011)

Crantor said:
			
		

> .... To make matters worse he wears his uniform and carries a pace stick to do it giving the impression that he is still "in rank".....



That is bizarre as all get out.... ???

I'd watch out, these are the kind of people that _finally snap_ one day, and show up to work in a children's SpongeBob costume, with an unstrung tennis racket up their ass, carrying a valise full of catshit, and insisting you address them as "Jesus H Napoleon".

Just make sure you have a good means of egress for when the crazy happens.

My :2c:

Good luck,

HS


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