# Israel to protect its soldiers from war crimes charges



## Bo (25 Jan 2009)

> JERUSALEM (AFP) — Israel will grant legal protection for soldiers who fought in the three-week war in the Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Sunday amid accusations of war crimes.
> "The commanders and soldiers sent to Gaza need to know that they are completely safe from different tribunals and Israel will help and protect them," he said.
> Olmert confirmed he had appointed Justice Minister Daniel Friedman to chair an inter-ministerial committee "to coordinate Israel's efforts to offer legal defence for anyone who took part in the operation.
> "He will formulate questions and answers relating to the army's operations, which self-righteous people ... might use to sue officers and soldiers," the prime minister said.
> ...



http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iveADtDsyoxoU17REudki0LUEMMA


If these soldiers are convicted of war crimes and Israel protects them, then what? Isn't it a crime to protect war criminals?


For those wondering what Canada's stance is regarding war criminals:

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/wc-cg/rlf-rcl.html


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## Yrys (25 Jan 2009)

Same subject, another article :

Israeli PM in war crimes pledge, BBC News

Any Israeli soldiers accused of war crimes in the Gaza Strip will be given 
state protection from prosecution overseas, the country's PM has said.


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## Yrys (25 Jan 2009)

Israel to Coordinate Soldiers’ Defense, AP at NY Times

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Special legal teams will defend Israeli soldiers against 
potential war crimes charges stemming from civilian deaths in the Gaza Strip, 
the prime minister said Sunday, promising the country would fully back those 
who fought in the three-week offensive.

The move reflected growing concerns by Israel that officers could be subject 
to international prosecution, despite the army's claims that Hamas militants 
caused the civilian casualties by staging attacks from residential areas.

''The state of Israel will fully back those who acted on its behalf,'' Prime Minister 
Ehud Olmert said. ''The soldiers and commanders who were sent on missions 
in Gaza must know that they are safe from various tribunals.'' Speaking at the 
weekly Cabinet meeting, Olmert said Israel's justice minister would lead a team 
of senior officials to coordinate the legal defense of anyone involved in the offensive.

''That decision is not going to prevent all these organizations and countries to pursue 
their efforts through legal means,'' Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Malki said at talks 
with European Union foreign ministers in Brussels. ''So there is no immunity even if the 
decision was taken by the Israeli government.''

Malki is a member of moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' government, 
whose authority extends only to the West Bank after rival Hamas violently took over 
Gaza in 2007.

Israel launched its 22-day offensive to try to halt Hamas rocket fire on southern Israel. 
The assault killed 1,285 Palestinians, more than half of them civilians, the Palestinian 
Center for Human Rights counted. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians, were 
also killed.

At talks Sunday in Cairo aimed at solidifying the truce, Hamas official Ayman Taha 
said the Islamic group offered a one-year truce to Israel, including the reopening 
of border crossings to allow vital supplies into Gaza. He said Israel offered an 
18-month truce, which Hamas rejected. Israeli officials refused to comment.
A low-level delegation from Abbas' West Bank government was also in Cairo 
for talks, but was not expected to meet with Hamas.

The European Union, Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey appealed to Hamas and the 
Palestinian Authority to form a unity government. Israel and Hamas are bitter 
enemies and do not talk to each other, relying instead on Egyptian mediation.

In addition to the civilian death toll, Israel has faced international criticism for 
its use of white phosphorous, and for shelling attacks that struck United 
Nations schools and installations that were serving as shelters.

Although the use of phosphorous weapons to light up the night or to create 
smoke screens masking troops is permitted by international law, Amnesty 
International has accused Israel of committing a war crime by firing the 
munitions in densely populated areas.

Israeli, Palestinian and international human rights groups have said they are 
seeking to build a case that Israel violated the laws of war. The groups are 
focusing on suspicions that Israel used disproportionate force and failed to 
protect civilians. They also have criticized Hamas for using civilians as human 
shields and firing rockets at civilian targets in Israel.

Israeli officials have said they took great efforts to avoid civilian casualties, 
and accused Hamas of deliberately using mosques, schools and residential 
neighborhoods for cover. Olmert angrily accused the ''international legal 
arena'' of ''moral acrobatics'' by ignoring years of Palestinian rocket salvos 
aimed at Israeli civilians. ''The state of Israel did everything in order to 
avoid hitting civilians. I do not know of any military that is more moral, 
fair and sensitive to civilians' lives,'' Olmert said.

In another precaution, Israel's military censor already has barred 
publication of the names or pictures of battlefield officers from the 
offensive. Israeli leaders have faced similar concerns in the past. In 
2001, then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was sued in Belgium over his 
alleged role in a 1982 massacre in Lebanon's Sabra and Shatila 
refugee camps. He was never convicted.

In 2005, a London court issued an arrest warrant for a retired Israeli 
general for his role in the bulldozing of houses in a Gaza refugee camp.
 The general ducked arrest by staying on his plane at London's Heathrow 
airport and flying back to Israel. Another top official, Cabinet Minister Avi 
Dichter, turned down an invitation to Britain out of concern that he could be 
arrested for his role in the 2002 assassination of a senior Hamas militant 
in Gaza.

The Israeli offensive ended with a temporary cease-fire last week, and
international mediators are trying to work out a longer-term arrangement.
Israel wants guarantees that Hamas will stop firing rockets and be prevented 
from smuggling weapons into Gaza from neighboring Egypt.

In Brussels, EU foreign ministers on Sunday emphasized the need to stop 
arms smuggling and improve the humanitarian situation in Gaza. They called 
on Egypt to do more to halt the flow of arms to Gaza, while offering monitors 
to help run the Egypt-Gaza crossing.

Israeli officials have said they are prepared to resume the offensive if rocket 
attacks start up again. Israel also has demanded the release of an Israeli soldier 
held by Hamas for more than two years as part of a long-term truce. Israeli 
Cabinet minister Shaul Mofaz suggested that Israel would assassinate Hamas 
leaders if the soldier, Sgt. Gilad Schalit, is not released.

''I want to tell the leaders of Hamas, don't misunderstand us,'' Mofaz said. 
''Until Schalit goes free, none of you will be able to walk freely on the streets 
of Gaza.'' It was not clear whether Mofaz, a former armed forces chief, was 
voicing official policy or giving his personal opinion.

After the comments, Palestinians fled from a dozen government buildings. Hamas 
officials called for calm, and midlevel officials were back on the job, distributing 
aid to victims whose homes were destroyed or damaged. Still, top Hamas leaders 
remained out of sight, as they have since Israel launched the offensive last month.

------

_Associated Press writers Ibrahim Barzak and Alfred de Montesquiou in Gaza City; 
Dalia Nammari in Ramallah, West Bank, and Amy Teibel in Jerusalem contributed 
to this report. _


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## Infanteer (26 Jan 2009)

Bo said:
			
		

> If these soldiers are convicted of war crimes and Israel protects them, then what? Isn't it a crime to protect war criminals?



Who will accuse and prove them to be war criminals?  Some court in a third country has no jurisdiction to try them.  The Hague, as far as I understand it, exists to prosecute those who operate within an area with no functioning/effective legal/judicial/penal system.  I think it would be a tough sell to prove that situation exists in Israel.


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## a_majoor (26 Jan 2009)

Will the Hague be prosecuting Hamas for their numerous war crimes? Doubt it.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jan 2009)

Perhaps it may be a good thing for Israel. They will provide formal evidence of Hamas crimes in court to counter the claims. hamas actions will be public record and hard to ignore. This may be the worse thing that can happen for Hamas.


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## a_majoor (26 Jan 2009)

Lets see the Hague investigate this:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hamas-tried-to-hijack-ambulances-during-gaza-war/2009/01/25/1232818246374.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2



> *Hamas tried to hijack ambulances during Gaza war*
> Jason Koutsoukis in Gaza City
> January 26, 2009
> 
> ...


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## geo (26 Jan 2009)

Am surprised that the ambulance driver was so open about Hamas' attempts to use the ambulances as troop transports.

A brave man....


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## Bo (26 Jan 2009)

Thucydides, if members of Hamas committed war crimes, then they should be held accountable as well.

Here's a summary of what Israel is being investigated for:




> A shameful war: Israel in the dock over assault on Gaza
> 
> *By the time the shooting stopped, more than 100 Palestinians had been killed for every Israeli who died. Was every death lawful? And, if not, where does the fault lie? Raymond Whitaker and Donald Macintyre report*
> Sunday, 25 January 2009
> ...




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/a-shameful-war-israel-in-the-dock-over-assault-on-gaza-1515320.html


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## Infanteer (27 Jan 2009)

Bo said:
			
		

> Here's a summary of what Israel is being investigated for



Again, by whom?  You never addressed my question above.


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## abo (27 Jan 2009)

International Criminal Court handles investigations and prosecution of war crimes. Isreal is a member state, as is Canada. Hamas is too small scale but Its proxies could potentially face prosecution by the ICC or a special tribunal.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jan 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Am surprised that the ambulance driver was so open about Hamas' attempts to use the ambulances as troop transports.
> 
> A brave man....



A crack in the Hamas grip on power?


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## geo (27 Jan 2009)

Ohh... I think that there are a lot of people pi$$ed at Hamas - but they are usualy careful not to speak out.

Twas in the news the other day that Hamas is presently cleaning house - disposing of naysayers & people willing to challenge their authority... this is after all a "game" of King of the hill.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Jan 2009)

Bo said:
			
		

> .... if members of Hamas committed war crimes, then they should be held accountable as well.



And I await such charges being laid and prosecuted by the appropriate authorities based on allegations going as far back as 2007 (no, wait 2005), especially in light of a call by at least one human rights group to "announce publicly that your organization will not use lethal force to target civilians or cause indiscriminate harm to civilians".....

<<sound of crickets chirping in an empty field>>


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## Infanteer (28 Jan 2009)

abo said:
			
		

> International Criminal Court handles investigations and prosecution of war crimes. Isreal is a member state, as is Canada. Hamas is too small scale but Its proxies could potentially face prosecution by the ICC or a special tribunal.



Re-read my original post.  The ICC is a court of last resort (to quote directly from their webpage) and will only act if the judicial process in the specific nation is flawed.  As I said, before ICC investigation proceeded, one would have to prove that Israel's court system was dysfunctional, which I'm sure wouldn't be the easiest thing to do.


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## a_majoor (28 Jan 2009)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Re-read my original post.  The ICC is a court of last resort (to quote directly from their webpage) and will only act if the judicial process in the specific nation is flawed.  As I said, before ICC investigation proceeded, one would have to prove that Israel's court system was dysfunctional, which I'm sure wouldn't be the easiest thing to do.



However there is no functioning judicial system in Gaza (hauling out alleged collaberators and Fatah supporters and shooting them in the kneecaps or head is not a substitute), so the ICC DOES have grounds to claim jurisdiction in investigating and prosecuting HAMAS war crimes and war criminals.

We all know how that will work out......


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## Shec (28 Jan 2009)

And just how credible are the accusers?  This recent report on UNRWA, written by an insider with a legal background, makes a case that it is a puppet of Palestinian interests.  And while "I'm not so wise as the lawyer guys",  as Robert Service once wrote, it certainly casts reasonable doubt:

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC04.php?CID=306


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## a_majoor (28 Jan 2009)

From SPIEGEL ONLINE 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,603508,00.html



> *Did Israel Commit War Crimes in Gaza?*
> By Thomas Darnstädt and Christoph Schult in Jerusalem
> 
> Did Israel violate international law in Gaza? The immense number of Palestinian civilian casualties suggests that it did. But can the laws of war really be applied to asymmetrical conflicts such as Israel's war with Hamas?
> ...


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## old medic (30 Jan 2009)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/30/spain.israel.gaza.lawsuit/index.html



> JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A top Israeli official named as a suspect in a war crimes investigation by Spain's high court has lambasted the move, claiming Spanish law is siding with terrorist organizations.
> 
> Israel's Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer is one of seven Israelis under investigation by Spain's National Court over a 2002 bombing in Gaza that killed 15 people and injured more than 150 others. He was then the defense minister.
> 
> ...


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## Brad Sallows (1 Feb 2009)

The first thing that must happen before this can go beyond the usual political posturing is to separate "Israel's" war crimes from specific allegations against people.  One major theme is "proportionality", and many people do not understand its different meanings in the context of jus ad bellum and jus in bello.  What is beyond dispute is that a disproportionate body count is not, in itself, a crime.


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## geo (1 Feb 2009)

Let's put it in context.... If Hamas had the power and ability to project & cause 1000 or 5000 more injuries / deaths to israeli citzens.... they would've - in a heartbeat.


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## tomahawk6 (1 Feb 2009)

No such thing as proportionality. You attack my country and its all out war. That has been the principle throughout time.


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## old medic (5 Feb 2009)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-court-palestinians5-2009feb05,0,6059347.story


International Criminal Court to consider Gaza investigation
The Palestinian Authority and others want the court to investigate alleged war crimes committed during the recent battle with Israel.
By Sebastian Rotella
3:57 PM PST, February 4, 2009



> Reporting from Madrid -- In a move that could inject a new international actor into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the International Criminal Court will examine requests to investigate alleged war crimes during the recent combat in the Gaza Strip, its chief prosecutor said Wednesday.
> 
> Luis Moreno Ocampo, chief prosecutor of the Netherlands-based court, said he had decided to consider an investigation after the Palestinian Authority accepted the jurisdiction of the court last week.
> 
> ...


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## Infanteer (5 Feb 2009)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> You attack my country and its all out war. That has been the principle throughout time.



I don't think that's what Jefferson had in mind when he dispatched the Navy to "the shores of Tripoli".


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## Shec (5 Feb 2009)

What’s inside? A guide to what Hamas puts in those little rockets and bombs

[Chemical & Biological Warfare: Introduction]

Hamas first added pesticides and poisonous chemicals to indigenously produced bombs in 1997. Certain Palestinian terrorist elements have also attempted to contaminate Israeli water sources and agricultural exports with chemical and biological agents.

In 1999, Israeli security forces apprehended a Hamas terrorist ring active in the recruitment of Palestinian biology and chemistry students as part of an attempt to form a non-conventional weapons effort against Israel.

During Operation Defensive Shield (April 2002), the IDF seized 10 tubes of bromine in the Ramallah Mukatah compound. Bromine, a brownish-red liquid, is a corrosive element that dissolves human tissue — even at a concentration of one per million. 

In July 2004, Shin Bet Chief Avi Dichter noted that non-conventional weapons may have been smuggled into the PA. In December 2004, the Israeli defense establishment expressed concern over the possibility of a chemical or biological attack by various Palestinian terrorist groups.

Indeed, various indictments against Palestinian terrorists have revealed that both Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) attempted to use cyanide for terrorist attacks against Israelis on several occasions. Abbas Sayyid, who headed the Hamas military wing in Tulkarem, intended to use cyanide in an attack against the Sharon shopping mall (May 2001) and Park Hotel (March 2002) in Netanya. PIJ terrorist Anas Hatnawi (Jenin), planned to use cyanide in suicide attacks against Israelis.

In March 2007, the IDF Homefront Command held an extensive, nationwide civil defense drill that included a simulated chemical mega-terrorist attack against a Ramat Gan school. Special Forces, utilizing sophisticated decontamination equipment, rushed to the scene and carried out mass casualty emergency evacuation to hospitals. The drill was performed under realistic combat conditions. 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Use of Chemical & Biological Agents in Suicide Bombings]

In December 2001, the Israeli Health Ministry revealed that nails and bolts found in a bomb detonated by a Palestinian suicide bomber had been dipped in rat poison. According to Hamas, planting poisonous chemicals in explosive devices have terrorized Israelis more effectively than conventional bombings. In January 2002, a senior Israeli security source warned that Hamas may be attempting to obtain sarin and other nerve gases. 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Planned Chemical Warhead for Qassam Missile] 

In February 2002, Middle East Newsline reported that Palestinian terrorist elements were developing a chemical warhead for the Qassam-class missile. In December 2005, media reports indicated that Palestinian terrorists were preparing Qassam missiles with chemical warheads.

In June 2006, Fatah announced the development of chemical and biological weapons and claimed to possess 20 biological warheads for Qassam rockets.

“With the help of Allah, we are pleased to say that we succeeded in developing over 20 different types of biological and chemical weapons, this after a three-year effort…We say to (Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert and (Defense Minister Amir) Peretz: Your threats of invasion do not frighten us. We will surprise you with new weapons you have not faced until now. As soon as an IDF soldier sets foot on Gazan land, we will respond with a new weapon.” 

The organization noted it would not hesitate to use the substances, adding they could be placed on rockets similar to those fired at Israeli communities surrounding Gaza.

“If Israel invades Gaza, we will declare open warfare without limits…”

Fatah also claimed to have fired one rocket with a checmical warhead at southern Israel. However, the IDF did not detect the launch of such a rocket. 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ramla Biological Simulation Center] 

The IDF Ramla Biological Simulation Center, slated to begin operations in April 2008, will simulate a number of biological warfare scenarios, including an attack on a mall, movie theater and parking garage.

The facility, funded by the Ministry of Defense, will be utilized by the Homefront Command for training purposes.

Chief of the Nuclear Biological and Chemical Branch of the IDF Medical Corps, Colonel Tzvika Doshnitzky: “Biological warfare is the most dangerous of weaponry as the fallout does not occur immediately, rather the symptoms only appear later…” 4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[NATO Funding to Protect Israeli Water Supply] 

In April 2007, Globes reported that NATO was slated to fund an interdisciplinary research project by the Technion (Israel Institute of Technology) on protecting water supplies against biological and chemical terrorism.

The research will integrate mathematical models for the positioning of monitoring stations and technological innovations for identifying and neutralizing chemical and biological contaminants. The project, due to be completed by the end of 2008, has a budget of €300,000.

Prof. Israel Schechter of the Faculty of Chemistry: “After Al Qaeda documents and plans were discovered in Afghanistan, the FBI warned that the organization was planning to attack water sources. It turns out that water dispersal systems in the US, Israel, and other developed countries in the world are completely exposed. They are outdoors, with no guards. The systems are large and numerous, and guards cannot be placed at all of them. An expert panel examined the issue and gave its recommendations to Congress, which allocated $608 million to solve the problem…

“A huge quantity of poison is needed to poison the water supply…I tried to think like a terrorist and discovered a way to place a handful of a certain poison into water sources that could kill large numbers of people, despite the dilution factor. That’s why I started to develop a device that can detect chemical poisons in water and neutralize them.”

Prof. Yechezkel Kashi of the Faculty of Biotechnology Food Engineering: “We’ve basically established an ID card for specific bacteria. We’re now developing a scanner that will be able to quickly and accurately detect specific bacteria. We’re collaborating with Prof. David Walt of Tufts University on this project.” 5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[References] 

1.    “Israel Fears Chemical Attack by Hamas Suicide Bombers,” The Times of London, January 2, 2002; “Dr. Danny Shoham - BESA Center Expert on Chemical and Biological Weapons Takes Center Stage,” BESA Bulletin, no. 14, May 2002; “Shin Bet Chief Concerned Over Non-Conventional Warfare Reaching the PA,” IsraelNationalNews,” July 21, 2004; Eitan Rabin, “Classified Report Obtained by NRG Maariv Reveals Defense Officials Also Concerned Palestinian Terror Groups Might Try to Perpetrate WMD Attacks,” NRG Ma’ariv (English edition), December 8, 2004; IDF Finds 12 Liters of Poisonous Bromine Hidden in Arafat’s Ramallah Compound,” IMRA, April 19, 2002; Gal Luft, “From Clandestine Army to Guardians of Terror: The Palestinian Security Forces and the Second Intifada,” Nativ (Online), Vol. 4, June 2004; David Eshel, “Chlorine Gas Attacks: Paradigm in Unconventional Terror,” Defense Update, March 22, 2007.

2.    “Israel fears Chemical Attack by Hamas Suicide Bombers,” The Times of London, January 2, 2002; “Hamas Says [it put] Chemicals in Bombs,” Associated Press, December 12, 2001. 

3.    “Hamas Claims Kassam will be Tipped with CW,” MENL, Feb. 28, 2002; DebkaFile, December 8, 2005; Roee Nahmias, “Al-Aqsa Brigades: Chemical Warfare if Israel Invades Gaza,” YnetNews, June 25, 2006; “Gaza Militants Say Fired Chemical-Tipped Warhead,” Reuters, June 29, 2006.. 

4.    Elad Shalev, “Biological Simulation Center to Be Established in Ramla,” IDF Spokesperson’s Office, February 19, 2007.

5.    Amnon Barzilai, “NATO to Finance Technion Water Terrorism Research,” Globes, April 19, 2007.

And here is a report on delivery system development and deployment: 

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/rocket_threat_e.pdf 

Now, what's all this B$ about disproportionate force and war crimes allegedly perpetrated against a regime that shields itself behind civilians, steals humanitarian relief supplies meant for those same civilians, and considers CBW against non-military targets?


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## abo (20 Mar 2009)

Update.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm



> Israel troops admit Gaza abuses
> 
> An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.
> 
> ...


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## a_majoor (26 Mar 2009)

Amazing what happens when a real investigation is done rather than rumor mongering:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1647



> *Charges of IDF "Wanton Killing" Crumble*
> 
> *The brigade commander of the unit linked to alleged “wanton killings” in Gaza launched his own investigation after hearing of the charges, speaking with actual eyewitnesses, all of whom said that the alleged killings did not took place. The original charges, based only on hearsay and rumors, have therefore been refuted and should be retracted.*
> 
> ...


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## geo (26 Mar 2009)

Hmmm.... puts some question marks to some/all those allegations of IDF soldiers being total and absolute monsters.

From a personal perspective, war will bring out the best AND worst in man (generalization).


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## 2 Cdo (26 Mar 2009)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> No such thing as proportionality. You attack my country and its all out war. That has been the principle throughout time.


(Sarcasm on)
Apparently we must have proportionality when fighting our enemies! From now on if we kill 10 Taliban and suffer no casualties ourselves we will remove 10 privates from our ORBAT and execute them just to keep things proportional!
(Sarcasm now off)


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## time expired (26 Mar 2009)

This discusion concerning the "moral highground"by people who
are as far from the struggle as its possible to get and have never
fought for anything in their lives and have no intention of ever 
doing so,is getting on my nerves.The IDF knows from history that
the moral highground is only of any use to you if you also occupy
the physical highground.As an example think of the 6 million Jews
who allowed themselves to be herded into the Nazi death camps
in their mistaken belief in humanity and the rule of law.Insofar as 
they offered very little violent resistance one could accurately
describe them as having the moral highground,a fat lot of good it
did them.This lesson is probably has been absorbed well by the
IDF and Jewish people as a whole,and it is probably a lesson that
we in the West will more than likely have to learn in the near future.
  Using the same tactics as the enemy does not make us the same as
them,as long as we WIN and I am sorry my left leaning,hand wringing
friends that is and always will be the bottom line.
                                   Regards


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## IntlBr (26 Mar 2009)

time expired:

Interesting perspective - enjoyed that post.  I personally have long found the case presented by Israel's internal/foreign policy to be one of the great paradoxes of our times...


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## abo (27 Mar 2009)

time expired said:
			
		

> This discusion concerning the "moral highground"by people who
> are as far from the struggle as its possible to get and have never
> fought for anything in their lives and have no intention of ever
> doing so,is getting on my nerves.The IDF knows from history that
> ...



Hmm?
Moral highground only matters when you have actual highground. (this is your argument right?)
Sooo being right or wrong is only relevant if you have the strength to "WIN".
So. If you are weak and cannot "WIN" your moral highground is of no consequence.
Your argument is just Might Makes Right. Last I checked there was a certain German political party that adhered to this philosophy between 1930 and 1945.

Quick question for you.
How exactly does using the same tactics as your enemy not make you the same as your enemy?


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## a_majoor (27 Mar 2009)

Sorry, that is not what Time Expired was saying at all.

Having the "moral high ground" is desirable, but the only way you can use the moral high ground to effect change is to also have the physical high ground: i.e. be in a position and have the *will* to take action to maintian your position. Handwringing about your morally superior position does little when thugs come to take your person and property; even here in Canada HRC "Star Chambers" have used their quasi leagal powers to punish and destroy those who they disagree with until Ezra Levant (using YouTube and the Internet) and Mark Steyn (using his skills as a writer and global reach as a syndicated columnist) counterattacked and al least rocked the HRC thugs back on their heels.

Since Hamas strikes using rockets, suicide bombers and gunmen, the IDF needs to respond in an appropriate manner. When it becomes an internet struggle, then internet tools are the ones to use. The key is always to take hold of the proprer tools and use them.

*Freedom is a self help project.*


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## abo (27 Mar 2009)

Ah I see what you mean. Thanks for clearing that up Thucydides.


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## Yrys (25 Mar 2010)

Israeli Military Tries Two Soldiers for Conduct During Gaza War

Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronoth’s Web site Ynet News reports, 
Israel’s military put two of its own soldiers on trial on Wednesday 
for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open bags they 
suspected might contain explosives during a raid in Gaza last year.

When the soldiers were charged earlier this month, my colleague 
Isabel Kershner reported that the military said in a statement that, 
“soldiers were strictly forbidden from making use of civilians for or 
during operational activity and specifically when it endangered the 
lives of the civilians.” If they are convicted of all charges, the soldiers 
could face up to three years in jail.

Ynet News explains that the Israeli military started its investigation 
of the two soldiers, who are both reservists, after it was contacted by 
the United Nations and the Israeli branch of Defense for Children 
International, a nongovernmental organization. The Israeli charity took 
testimony from the boy, identified as Majd R., last June.

Earlier this month, Ynet News published most of the child’s testimony 
and explained that, according to the indictment, the incident happened 
on Jan. 15, 2009, as members of the Israel Defense Forces swept into 
a residential neighborhood in Gaza City, during the Israeli offensive known 
as Operation Cast Lead. Ynet News reported:

_The soldiers separated the men from the women and children and ordered 
the men to strip before leading them one by one outside the building. A soldier 
approached Majd, who was hiding behind his mother in fear — and motioned 
for him to step forward.
_
Here is what the boy said happened next:

_I thought they would kill me. I became very scared and wet my pants. I could 
not shout or say anything because I was too afraid… He pushed me towards the 
small corridor in front of the bathrooms. He began shouting at me and speaking 
a language I did not understand… There were two bags in front of me. I grabbed 
the first one as he stood one and a half meters away. I opened the bag as he 
pointed his weapon directly at me. I emptied the bag on the floor. It contained 
money and papers. I looked at him and he was laughing. I grabbed the second 
bag to open it but I could not. I tried many times but it was useless, so he shouted 
at me. He grabbed my hair and slapped me very hard across the face._

The two soldiers were charged with overstepping their authority and “conduct
 unbecoming.” One of the defendants, identified as staff sergeant A. told Ynet 
News: “I feel hurt and betrayed; they stabbed me in the back after what I gave 
to the country. The Army was looking for someone to blame for the whole world 
to see and chose soldiers who did nothing wrong.” He added: “I guess they don’t 
understand who is for and who is against the country.”

Ynet reported that “the charges are considered light and do not carry a criminal 
record. The maximum penalty for overstepping authority is one year in prison.”

Al Jazeera English interviewed the boy, who is now 11, in Gaza this month. The Arab
 satellite network’s report, embedded below, suggests that the boy is still suffering 
trauma as a result of the encounter.


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