# WHY?



## ChopperHead (29 Jul 2005)

Ive been reading a bunch of threads in here and they all say that it takes around 9 months from the time you walk into the recruiting office till your off to basic I was just wondering why it takes so long Because isnt the army currently in a bit of a man power shortage so shouldnt they be just trying fill positions as fast as possible and since they have a shortage then shouldnt there be enough people to get the application through because I wouldnt think they are very back logged or anything? 




Kyle.


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## beach_bum (29 Jul 2005)

Hi Kyle,

Use of punctuation is a wonderful thing.  It really helps in getting your message across.

To answer  your questions though, even when there is a recruiting drive on, there is still the recruiting process to get through.  I think most people will agree it is a long one, but sadly, it's the one in place at this time.


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## TheMachine (29 Jul 2005)

You are walking into a recruiting office that doesnt have the authority to hire you. From there, after extensive testing, which all the office can do, your files are sent to Borden to be checked again. Then your files are introduced to your potential supervisor, I believe. Its better this way, theres no stress. The work is done for you. 

Let the process run; however long it takes, its a process.


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## Slim (29 Jul 2005)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> Hi Kyle,
> 
> Use of punctuation is a wonderful thing.   It really helps in getting your message across.



Use of punctuation is mandatory! No more run-on paragraphs!

Also next time do a search to see if the issue has been previously discussed.

This one has!

Slim
STAFF


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## ChopperHead (29 Jul 2005)

Sorry about my bad grammer I'll put periods in next time lol. I check some of the other threads but they don't really answer what I want to know either. I just don't see how they can justify takeing a year to get one person to training like come on there has to be a better way. You get your license in under a month, I know that has nothing to do with this but still they have to go through paper work and set it all up and the ministry of transportation has got to have thousands of applications for license on any given day. Im just saying that It doesnt make sense to take a whole year or more in some cases just to get through paper work.



kyle.


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## PJ D-Dog (29 Jul 2005)

The recruiting process involves the initial contact interview (when you walk into the recruiter's office), the initial screening (to see if you meet the basic eligibility criteria), an explanation of the process, an explanation of the trade choices potentially available to you and then the filling out of the forms.

Once it is determined that you meet the basic application requirements, then you as scheduled for aptitude testing, medical examination and physical fitness testing.  Once this is done, your package is sent to CFRETS at CFB Borden where it is reviewed and further processed.  At this stage, a background security check is conducted and the parts 2 and 3 medicals are completed.  The two latter stages that I mentioned are very lengthy events and most applicant files will sit in waiting from three to 18 months depending on the backlog or any issues that may arise from the information provided.

There is currently a very serious bottle neck at Borden which is slowing down the recruiting process to a snails pace.  Despite the need for live bodies, the CF's recruiting process has not as yet been realigned with the growing need.  As a result, the entire application process has become very painful for those who want to enter the service.

Another issue is the fact the CF does not tie the number of contracts to job performance for recruiters.  So in effect, it doesn't matter how many new applicants get sworn in, the recruiter's career progression will not be affected.  There are no real incentives for recruiters to beat the pavement and find new prospects to enter the forces.

A word of adivce:  once you have been processed and your file is in Borden, check on the status of your application with your recruiter on a regular basis (like weekly or bi-weekly).  Remember that the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

PJ D-Dog


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## ChopperHead (29 Jul 2005)

thanks PJ thats kinda what I was looking for still thats alota time on paper work I think this process needs some major overhauling if they expect to meet the goals they set to add something like 5000 more troops. Cause that is just not gonna happen the way things are now. 





Kyle.


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## Hunter911 (29 Jul 2005)

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> thanks PJ thats kinda what I was looking for still thats alota time on paper work I think this process needs some major overhauling if they expect to meet the goals they set to add something like 5000 more troops. Cause that is just not gonna happen the way things are now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Personally, it took a full 7 months to get my application done, but that was due to bad medical afetr bad medical and delayed tests and so on and so forth... so no worries... 9 months sounds a little too much for me

-Hugo


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## on guard for thee (29 Jul 2005)

Here is a little different angle on this one.....

The CF & Cdn Govt spend a great deal of money on each member. When considering this, take into consideration training cost (not just initial but throughout one's career), medical/dental, pension implications, equipment costs, travel, etc, etc.......oh, I forgot, they pay us as well....

IMHO, due dilligence and care should be part of the enrollment process, and this is reasonable. This will make the system slower, but protecting the Crown's interests require it.

Does this excuse the current delays? No. But remember, this isn't applying for a job at McDonalds........

My 2 cents on this one........


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## PJ D-Dog (29 Jul 2005)

I agree that the Crown does spend a lot of money on each member and that care should be taken in selecting service members.  Having said that, here in the US, a lot more money is spent on training the military and our entitlements are much better than in the CF and for some reason, the entire processing time can take as little as four days.  There needs to be a happy medium and the CF has just not reached it.

The entire attitude of protecting the Crown's investment sickens me.  This is the difference between Canada and the US, where in Canada, everything is geared to protecting the Crown's interest and ruling the subjects who are allowed rights and freedoms.  In the US, our rights are inherent and cannot be suspended or taken away just because the Crown's interests may not be served.  The question is who is serving who's interest?....food for thought.

PJ D-Dog


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## Zombie (29 Jul 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> At this stage, a background security check is conducted and the parts 2 and 3 medicals are completed.   The two latter stages that I mentioned are very lengthy events and most applicant files will sit in waiting from three to 18 months depending on the backlog or any issues that may arise from the information provided.



Hasn't this lengthy delay been circumvented by the new medical policy that took effect June 1? 

I've also been led to believe that delays are minimal if you have lived in the country for the past 10 consecutive years, and have no immediate family living in certain countries. 

So, while the process can be long, it can also be fairly quick. I applied at the end of June and am aiming for an October BMQ.


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## on guard for thee (29 Jul 2005)

The entire attitude of protecting the Crown's investment sickens me.  This is the difference between Canada and the US, where in Canada, everything is geared to protecting the Crown's interest and ruling the subjects who are allowed rights and freedoms.  In the US, our rights are inherent and cannot be suspended or taken away just because the Crown's interests may not be served.  The question is who is serving who's interest?....food for thought.

PJ D-DOG, I said protecting the Crown's interests, not investment......there is a difference.
        
               In protecting the Crown's interests, we are not talking about "suspending or taking away" the rights of an individual.
               Doing one does not mean you are doing the other.

               "Who is serving who's interest"? I am serving the Crown. Full stop.

               As to the differences between Canada and the United States, there are many. If the pragmatic/responsible approach
               of protecting the Crown's interests "sickens" you, sorry. But this illustrates one of those many differences I mentioned.
               We won't get into any of the differences that may bother me.


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## BDTyre (29 Jul 2005)

In my experience, one the ball gets rolling, it doesn't stop....

Okay, it took a while to get any initial contact from my local CFRC, but everything that could be done there happened in a short span of time and could have happened even quicker, should my schedule have allowed it.  There's a lot of paperwork and transit time involved in recruiting.  At least, that's how it appeared to me.

Yes, there are some problems with recruiting.  Yes it can take awhile.  Overall, I had a positive experience and only a few minor quibbles about my CFRC.

But hiring in any organization always has its problems unique to that organization.


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## canadianblue (29 Jul 2005)

Well my process took close to six months. I originally applied to as a Reserve MP, then switched to Reg Force Infantry during the process, and was finally put into Signal Operations due to the new vision requirments. It is a long process, but it's worth it. I have few problems with the CFRC, despite the fact that they took away my job offer for the PPCLI due to a last minute change in vision requirments. I found that they tried to help me out in any way possible, and even after not making the standard for infantry allowed me to pick a different trade so I still had a chance to serve in the Military.


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## ChopperHead (29 Jul 2005)

Ya see thats what I mean like what PJ was saying in the US it takes like what a week to get in and they have alot more recruits coming in, And they are investing alot of money as well so It should not take up to a year to simply start training you cannot defend the system it just makes no sense.





Kyle.


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## scottyeH? (29 Jul 2005)

If you want to get into the military so bad and so quickly join the US Army.
quit whining and move on or be patient and wait for your turn go join the CF.


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## BDTyre (30 Jul 2005)

The US army is also considering or already has raised the maximum age for recruits because they are facing a shortage.  Although, I think that has more to do with people not wanting to join as opposed to the process taking too long.


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## Jordan411 (30 Jul 2005)

It takes so long because most people don't have the patience to wait 9 months to get in. I've done my waiting and I can't wait to go. The months of waiting I have done have solidified my decision to join and I am still as passionate to go as I was the day I walked into the CFRC.


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## Cyr (30 Jul 2005)

Having patience is true. Myself I've been waiting patiently for almost 1 year now to  have my application sent to the MPAC board to become an MP.  So if everything goes smoothly from here I could start my BMQ in October. I must admit though that the process takes way too long though. But if you really want it, it will be worth all the wait


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## ChopperHead (30 Jul 2005)

scottyeH.


Listen man Im not whining about it. Im more then willing to wait the year if I have to hopefully it won't take that long but you never know. All Im trying to do is understand why it takes as long as it does thats all.



Kyle.


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## Ex-Dragoon (30 Jul 2005)

Did you guys ever stop to think that its because we may not have enough instructors as well.In order to get more and get all of you in it might mean hurting the operational effectiveness of the CF by remoing personnel that undermanned units?


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## PJ D-Dog (30 Jul 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Did you guys ever stop to think that its because we may not have enough instructors as well.In order to get more and get all of you in it might mean hurting the operational effectiveness of the CF by remoing personnel that undermanned units?



That's an excellent point.  I read something on this not too long ago.  From my understanding, the entire CF accession pipeline is having issues due to manpower shortages.  It's one thing to get people in, and it's another to get them trained.

Unfortunately, over the years, the CF has let the house go unrepaired and now it needs some major overhauling.  Where to start to fix the problems is again another issue.

I think it needs to be done in increments.  Start by evaluating where all the bottle necks exist in the accession pipeline then look at the available manpower then plan accordingly for the next three years, slowly increasing the number of personnel needed to achieve the overall goal.  My experience in the CF has always been that it is a knee jerk reaction.  DND says one thing and everyone scrambles to make it happen because the goverment and the eyes of the public are watching and we can't fall short of the mark.  Crisis management is not a solution.  There needs to be some serious short and long term planning done with realistic and viable outcomes as the objective.  My two cents worth...

PJ D-Dog


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## PJ D-Dog (30 Jul 2005)

scottyeH? said:
			
		

> If you want to get into the military so bad and so quickly join the US Army.
> quit whining and move on or be patient and wait for your turn go join the CF.



This forum is not designed to tell people to be quiet about their views.  I strongly object to your tone.

Now, to address your comments:

1.  Contrary to popular belief, you cannot just cross the border and join the US Army.  That stuff just doesn't happen.  As much as all the US recruiters would like that, it is not a reality of life.  So we can't just send people packing because they are eager to join the military.

2.  As far as waiting one's turn to join the CF, I do have issues with that kind of system.  Processing for any job should take a reasonable amount of time but not 8 and 12 months and counting.  People are searching for better careers to improve theirs lives now, not in a year from now.  If you are willing to idlely sit by and wait your turn to join the CF even if it takes 12 to 18 months, then you are doing yourself an injustice and you should re-evaluate what you want in life.  I wouldn't put up with it.  I would make the necessary noises needed to get my application expedited and get in as soon as I can.

If I was in this situation, I would have written a very well worded letter to my Member of Parliament explaining how it is criminal to have to wait X amount of months to get into the CF and that changes need to happen now.  Remember that they are elected officials to Ottawa there to represent your views.  They sometimes need to be reminded who put them there.

If everyone on this forum, who has waited more than six months and are still waiting to get the call from the CF, would write a letter to their respective MPs, I'm sure things would start moving a bit a faster overall.  You elected them, then make them work for you.  It is everyone's right to write to their MP about government matters which affect them.  That is what representative government is all about.

PJ D-Dog.


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## PJ D-Dog (30 Jul 2005)

Pte (R) B said:
			
		

> The US army is also considering or already has raised the maximum age for recruits because they are facing a shortage.   Although, I think that has more to do with people not wanting to join as opposed to the process taking too long.



There are a number of issues taking place here in the US.  Last week, the Pentagon asked Congress to consider raising the enlistment age from 35 to 42 for all branches of the service as well as raising the retirement age from 55 to 62.

There is a shortage of manpower all around due to the negative publicity promulgated by the media.  The whole story about Iraq is not being told.  Having said that, in my opinion, I think the increase in enlistment age is an alternative to calling a draft.  If a draft is called, the country will probably go nuts and then all hell will break loose.

Contrary to popular belief, the shortage in manpower is not due to US servicemen dying in droves overseas.  It is due to not having enough people to rotate through on a regular basis.  Units are being stretched thin and tour length are increasing.  In order to take the heat off the deploying units, more manpower is needed to take the stress off the same units who have to deploy over there every seven months or so.  The US Army is suffering from a shortage of service support personnel.  Their infantry numbers are stable.  It takes more than just grunts to fight a war.

PJ D-Dog


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## BDTyre (31 Jul 2005)

PJ - thanks for clarification on that issue!


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## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

10 years ago, it took my husband 2 months from the time he dropped off his application til the day he set foot in St Jean.

I dropped mine off, completed professionally(not hand written but used their PDF format), and am now coming up on one month and have not even gone in for my interview. They are verifying that I do not have a SN and the Cpl at the RO said that could take weeks! 

I agree that this system needs an overhaul, and if they are needing instructors so bad to meet the increased demand in the number of recruits wanting to join, maybe they should consider "taking" from all the branches to get this ball rolling faster for them and for the recruit. 

I can see how some people will get very discouraged with the length of time they have to wait...I know I am and I have only waited a month :


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## Old Ranger (13 Aug 2005)

Are Security checks also part of the Delay?

How many bad apples slip into the US Military; because of expedited enrolment?


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## PJ D-Dog (13 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> I agree that this system needs an overhaul, and if they are needing instructors so bad to meet the increased demand in the number of recruits wanting to join, maybe they should consider "taking" from all the branches to get this ball rolling faster for them and for the recruit.



My understanding is that members of all branches participate in the recruiting process.  Way back when I worked at a CFRC, we had all branches working to process applications for all branches as CFRC is intergrated just like the CF.  Not really sure what you are getting at on this one.

PJ D-Dog


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## PJ D-Dog (13 Aug 2005)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> Are Security checks also part of the Delay?
> 
> How many bad apples slip into the US Military; because of expedited enrolment?



The CF recruiting process is held up by security checks, as I have been told.

In the US, we don't really have any expedited enrolement process.  If an applicant shows up with all the required paperwork, has nothing wrong with him and meets all the basic requirements and does not need any special waivers etc, he can processed in four days.

The only real downside is the scheduling that needs to be made at the MEPS (military enlistment processing station) to get the testing, medicals etc done.  The MEPS are regionalized and process all branches of the military in the same location.

In all realilty, you can show up on Monday and ship to boot camp the following Monday if everything goes right and there are complications.  When I joined I had two waivers and it took two weeks to get my contract and then I shipped the following week.

PJ D-Dog


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> 10 years ago, it took my husband 2 months from the time he dropped off his application til the day he set foot in St Jean.
> 
> I dropped mine off, completed professionally(not hand written but used their PDF format), and am now coming up on one month and have not even gone in for my interview. They are verifying that I do not have a SN and the Cpl at the RO said that could take weeks!
> 
> ...



And when i got in 13 years ago, it took 3 moths in between walking in the CFRC and walking into St-Jean.

The trouble with "taking" from all the branches to staff instrutor positions is that the line Units are already undermanned as it is.  Take more people away and it will make meeting operational commitments that much more problematic.  Look at the bigger picture.


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## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> And when i got in 13 years ago, it took 3 moths in between walking in the CFRC and walking into St-Jean.
> 
> The trouble with "taking" from all the branches to staff instrutor positions is that the line Units are already undermanned as it is.   Take more people away and it will make meeting operational commitments that much more problematic.   Look at the bigger picture.



You're right, but there are many people on the ships and such that really aren't doing anything but sitting around(hubby's words).

I guess what they could also always do is employ some reservists on a Class C or Class B to help out the CFRC with getting things moving along. I am sure there are plenty of reservists that would love some full time employment.

Just an idea


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> You're right, but there are many people on the ships and such that really aren't doing anything but sitting around(hubby's words).
> 
> I guess what they could also always do is employ some reservists on a Class C or Class B to help out the CFRC with getting things moving along. I am sure there are plenty of reservists that would love some full time employment.
> 
> Just an idea



Yes, briging in reservist MAY help.  As far as people not doing anything on the ship being used well, this too has its drawbacks.  They aren't doing anything RIGHT NOW, but thats because the ship isnt at sea.  What would have happened after sept 11th if  we had alot of sailors away in temporary instructor billiets ?  Remember that OP APOLLO took away most of the Navy. I dont beleive that there is any short term solution to all of this.  We are paying for FRP 1992, and paying big.  it took a decade for the effects to be felt and it will take another to sort it out.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Aug 2005)

Gotta disagree, Pat. The effect of FRP was immediate.  We in 4 CER deployed to Croatia as CANENGBAT with a substantially reduced skill base, because a fair number of senior NCO's, and experienced JNCO's stayed in Lahr on rear party/FRP party.  If we hadn't had the reserve augmentees that came to us originally for Op Spiral, we would have been quite shorthanded. Also the pioneers from 3 RCR were a godsend.

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> What would have happened after sept 11th if   we had alot of sailors away in temporary instructor billiets ?   Remember that OP APOLLO took away most of the Navy. I dont beleive that there is any short term solution to all of this.   We are paying for FRP 1992, and paying big.   it took a decade for the effects to be felt and it will take another to sort it out.



I was not in Canada at the time that 9-11 happened, so I honestly do not know what you guys went through up here. We were having to deal with alot of "if's, and's or but's" when 9-11 happened, and our command down there seemed to be pretty closed in the dark as far as what was going on in Canada, so they were unable to keep us up to date.


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Gotta disagree, Pat. The effect of FRP was immediate.   We in 4 CER deployed to Croatia as CANENGBAT with a substantially reduced skill base, because a fair number of senior NCO's, and experienced JNCO's stayed in Lahr on rear party/FRP party.   If we hadn't had the reserve augmentees that came to us originally for Op Spiral, we would have been quite shorthanded. Also the pioneers from 3 RCR were a godsend.
> 
> CHIMO,   Kat



Agreed.  I showed up to a regiment of 90 pers in 93 after my QL3.  I guess i am starting to see things from an airforce perspective more now.  There is a serious experience gap in the tech world since there were no new technician recruited for the longest time ( the way it was explained to me).  I totaly agree that the effects were imediate but i think, IMHO, that the more serious effects took 10 years to hit us.


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## visitor (14 Aug 2005)

I have noticed that   the request for information seems disjointed and inefficient.   They take so long that   medicals, physical assessment and even references get outdated and need to be repeated.   Seems to be not due to closer scrutiny, but inefficiency. Each stage takes so long, that the other stages get outdated and you could go around for years.   A simple flow chart would tighten up the recruiting process and save $$$ in the end.


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## PJ D-Dog (14 Aug 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> The trouble with "taking" from all the branches to staff instrutor positions is that the line Units are already undermanned as it is.   Take more people away and it will make meeting operational commitments that much more problematic.   Look at the bigger picture.



I am of the opinion that recruiting is an operational commitment.  Without new blood in the ranks, there will be no mission in the end.  Both go hand-in-hand.

Here in the Marine Corps, the number one priority along with war fighting capabilities is recruiting.  Everyone here knows that you can't have one without the other.  It is a symbiotic system.  As a result, recruiting has become big business in the Marines and it has been for many years.  Recruiters will work anything from 12 to 16 hour days, six days a week in order to get the job done.  In addition, monthly recruiting quotas are directly tied to job performance and career progression.  Go on recruiting duty and slack off and you may find yourself getting an adverse fitness report.  It's no joke.

As for the MEP stations, they have to work equally long hours to process all the applicants.  It is unheard of for an applicant to wait for more than three weeks to get processed, and that is with difficult waivers etc...  After they are processed, they may choose to ship to boot camp up to a year later.  The processing, however, is very quick.

The CF, being a small organization, should not have to suffer from these long processing waits.  It boils down to changing the business practice to meet the need, allocating resources where they are needed and taking a hard look at what missions the CF can and cannot participate in due to manpower shortfalls.  It's a lot like borrowing from the bank but not making any payments, eventually, the pot will run dry and all operations will come to a stand still.  I agree that it will probably take a good ten years to bring the force back to an acceptable strength level but then again the 
CF is known for eating its young.

PJ D-Dog


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## aesop081 (14 Aug 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> I am of the opinion that recruiting is an operational commitment.   Without new blood in the ranks, there will be no mission in the end.   Both go hand-in-hand.
> 
> Here in the Marine Corps, the number one priority along with war fighting capabilities is recruiting.   Everyone here knows that you can't have one without the other.   It is a symbiotic system.   As a result, recruiting has become big business in the Marines and it has been for many years.   Recruiters will work anything from 12 to 16 hour days, six days a week in order to get the job done.   In addition, monthly recruiting quotas are directly tied to job performance and career progression.   Go on recruiting duty and slack off and you may find yourself getting an adverse fitness report.   It's no joke.
> 
> ...



I absolutely agree with you there.  But since our operational commitments have not gone down in recent years......  Like you said, it will take a good, solid decade of playing the balancing act to rectify the "catch 22" we are in.


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## Roy Harding (14 Aug 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> I am of the opinion that recruiting is an operational commitment.  Without new blood in the ranks, there will be no mission in the end.  Both go hand-in-hand.
> 
> Here in the Marine Corps, the number one priority along with war fighting capabilities is recruiting.  Everyone here knows that you can't have one without the other.  It is a symbiotic system.  As a result, recruiting has become big business in the Marines and it has been for many years.  Recruiters will work anything from 12 to 16 hour days, six days a week in order to get the job done.  In addition, monthly recruiting quotas are directly tied to job performance and career progression.  Go on recruiting duty and slack off and you may find yourself getting an adverse fitness report.  It's no joke.
> 
> ...



An extremely interesting perspective!

I find myself in agreement with the overall gist of the post - recruiting is, indeed, an operational commitment.

This may not be news to some of you, but it is certainly a point of view that I had not entertained until I read the above.

Hmmm...


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## IcEPiCk (25 Aug 2005)

Better advertising is needed, not every quality recruit is going to wait 9+ months to get in.  I know Ive waited to get into BMQ and its been worth the wait, one of the most exciting times of my life so far.  However, people with credentials and quality skills are in demand and eventually will move on if they are not given some sort of enticement.

I think recruiting needs to be seen more from that view you are referring to, PJ D-Dog  ...  A business to be taken more seriously then it is.  This lack of seriousness is most reflected in the shitty ads, which I think were made from the same people that advertised barby and the easy bake oven.

I dont think recruiting time needs to be cut down to 4 days, that is to short to really check the quality of the candidate throroughly.

However, 9+ months is a slightly frustrating wait, especially when you have to constantly be calling the recruiters requesting information on your status...


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## Fry (27 Aug 2005)

I put in my application in late may, got my offical offer august 25th. A little over 3 months ;D


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