# Acting Chief of Military Personnel on Diversity, Inclusion, and Culture Change Short-Term Initiatives



## OceanBonfire (3 Nov 2021)

The main points:

Canadian Armed Forces Dress Instructions Update
Inclusive ranks in French
Post-natal care and women’s health
New Compassionate Leave Policy
Duty with Honour
Training Needs Assessment
Employment Equity
Promotion and Selection
Details:









						Message from the Acting Chief of Military Personnel on Diversity, Inclusion, and Culture Change Short-Term Initiatives
					

Today I want to highlight some of the great work we are leading within CMP and Military Personnel Command to help us realize this vision.




					www.canada.ca


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## rmc_wannabe (4 Nov 2021)

Long overdue reforms coming down the pipe. I look forward to seeing them implemented fully.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Nov 2021)

> Inclusive ranks in French​The CAF is exploring *feminized options for ranks in French*. Right now, the ranks are exclusively masculine, even when applied to women members. For example, in April 2021, the CAF announced the creation of the new position of Chief Professional Conduct and Culture, but in French, the head of the organization, “le lieutenant-général Jennie Carignan,” can only be addressed by the masculine rank.
> 
> Women have been able to occupy any rank or trade in Canada’s military for the last 20 years. They represent a growing ratio of CAF personnel, and are increasingly achieving higher ranks. An adjustment in our terminology is long overdue. In fact, our linguistic limitations may be contributing to the perception that the CAF is not welcoming for everyone.
> 
> The use of feminized ranks would be optional, and would not be reflected in the_ Queen’s Regulations and Orders_ for now. Members who are non-binary would have the option to describe themselves as they deemed most appropriate in any given situation.



So now the CAF is exploring changing the French language where nouns have a gender (masculine or feminine).  All the rank titles are currently (according to le Petit Robert) masculin.  Of course one can follow the convention of "feminizing" a masculine title by including an "e" to the end (or some other suffix) - le general becomes la generale or similarly just using feminine articles (la, une) with masculine nouns (to hell with the rules of grammar).  But it is also not "gender neutral" which was the rationale for changing navy jr NCM ranks.  The Académie Française (that arbiter and protector of proper French) also does not support such shenanigans.  If one was to permit the bastardization of French grammar in such a way, the next thing would be the official acceptance that a Quebecois is speaking French.

NATO is also looking into it . . . in English


			https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pictures/images_mfu/2021/5/pdf/210514-GIL-Manual_en.pdf
		


And in French . . . the approach and challenge is different


			https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pictures/images_mfu/2021/5/pdf/210514-GIL-Manual_fr.pdf
		



> 3. Grades militaires
> Tous les pays francophones n’ont pas forcément la même approche concernant la féminisation des grades militaires. Le français étant une langue officielle de l’OTAN, il est important d’adopter une approche standardisée pour les publications, traductions et documents établis en français par l’Organisation.
> 
> Pour rappel, historiquement, les grades au féminin désignent l’épouse. Ainsi, « Madame la générale » désigne encore, selon Le Petit Robert, l’épouse du général, tout comme « Madame la colonelle » se réfère à l’épouse du colonel.
> ...


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## Good2Golf (4 Nov 2021)

Académie française has…directeur & directrice.

It can be made to work.

Next…


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## daftandbarmy (4 Nov 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Académie française has…directeur & directrice.
> 
> It can be made to work.
> 
> Next…



After decades of infighting, because they're normal people of course, the French have seemed to figure it out:


Can French Ever Be Truly Gender Neutral?​
Since the 1980s, feminists have waged war in France against exclusively masculine titles for various professions, from _le policier_ to _le ministre_. Some, like _policier_, have been feminized (to _la policière_), while others, like _le ministre_, have not. Famously, when Ségolène Royal ran for president of France in 2007, debates were had over what her title would be if she won, since _la présidente_ refers not to the president, but to the president’s wife, leaving her with the clumsy option of _Madame le Président_. 

But though these discussions have been ongoing, and many new titles adopted, it took until 2019 for the Académie Française, the body which regulates the French language, to formally accept feminized job titles.









						Can French Ever Be Truly Gender Neutral? - Frenchly
					

French linguist Julie Abbou talks about inclusive writing, gender neutral French pronouns like iel, and feminist French language theory.




					frenchly.us


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## Navy_Pete (4 Nov 2021)

Looking forward to being able to rock a goatee with a skirt, but glad our clothing has been non-discriminatory in fitting everyone poorly, regardless of gender or size.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Nov 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Académie française has…directeur & directrice.
> 
> It can be made to work.
> 
> Next…



Mais, "directrice, n. f." is in le Petit Robert and has been a generally used word since 1838 so the Académie française has probably untwisted its knickers by now.  However, the primary and secondary definitions of directrice (according to my 1977 edition* of Robert, my acceptance of change is slightly faster than the Académie) are geometry terms; but it does lastly define it as the feminine of directeur (e.g. headmistress).



*_The official French dictionary of the Canadian Government, like the COD in English.  My 1977 Edition is copyrighted 1989 and was my office copy in 1994 when we closed Lahr.  Also kept saved from the trash the COD and the Langenscheidt as well as a bunch of other pubs._


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## daftandbarmy (4 Nov 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Looking forward to being able to rock a goatee with a skirt, but glad our clothing has been non-discriminatory in fitting everyone poorly, regardless of gender or size.



Kilts are pretty gender neutral


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## Navy_Pete (4 Nov 2021)

Who doesn't love oor Wullie!

I own a formal kilt and a utility kilt, they are both awesome int their own way (but not as a 'true scotsman, maybe the original kilts were a softer wool so less chaffing). Down with the oppression of bifurcated garments! But a skirt is probably cooler in the summer than the stupid plastic pants anyway, so maybe that will be an option to get around the 'no shorts' rule.

With WFH though it's somewhat redundant anyway, but honestly don't see any reason why anyone can't have long hair, earrings etc as long as there is a common standard for everyone. The gender neutral language is easy enough to adapt to as well, so don't see any of this as a big deal in practice.


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## dimsum (4 Nov 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> but honestly don't see any reason why anyone can't have long hair, earrings etc as long as there is a common standard for everyone. The gender neutral language is easy enough to adapt to as well, so don't see any of this as a big deal in practice.


The most vocal opponents will be the folks who start with "back in my day..."

I almost guarantee it.


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## Navy_Pete (4 Nov 2021)

dimsum said:


> The most vocal opponents will be the folks who start with "back in my day..."
> 
> I almost guarantee it.


Would be hilarious to travel back in time and record complaints from the older crowd. I'm sure they would all start with some variation on that theme.  
"When I harken back to my youth"...
..."backeth in mine owne day"
..."baek innin min dogor"
...(triangle, guy walking sideways, fist, fist, wavy lines)...


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## FJAG (4 Nov 2021)

dimsum said:


> The most vocal opponents will be the folks who start with "back in my day..."
> 
> I almost guarantee it.


It's only the old RSMs and BSMs who are rolling over in their graves as we speak. Personally, I'm from the sixties' hippie generation. If I can get used to everybody wearing different combat boots on parade and people not blousing their trousers, I can get used to anything.  😁 

🍻


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Nov 2021)

The dress and other stuff;  meh.  Those who have an issue will get over it, or release.

I'm not sure what I think about these parts.

- Fall National Selection boards now feature procedural improvements including mandating that one voting member be from an Employment Equity group, in order to prevent bias.  (not all of us 'white guys' are biased ffs)

- The current merit-based process does not provide complete insight into the character of an individual member...candidates for promotion are now required to complete three evidence-based online assessments to evaluate their cognitive ability, leadership qualities, and personality... Raters are carefully selected, with specific attention given to diversity in order to minimize confirmation bias.  (this suggests diversity will trump "best person for the position.  I don't and will never support this level of PC-ness").

Some "online assessment" (with unknown weight) will now factor in and raters will be "diverse".  I'll wait for more details before deciding 'thumbs up/down', personally.  Not that THAT matters at all...

Like there will be some people who complain about the unisex dress stuff, there will be a bunch of folks who will interpret the "new leave types" as "entitlements".  Both will need to be "educated"....


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Nov 2021)

FJAG said:


> It's only the old RSMs and BSMs who are rolling over in their graves as we speak. Personally, I'm from the sixties' hippie generation. If I can get used to everybody wearing different combat boots on parade and people not blousing their trousers, I can get used to anything.  😁
> 
> 🍻




Yup!  I like to think that...beards....boots...and weed have 'softened up' the "the end is nigh!" group.....  😁


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## Remius (4 Nov 2021)

When beards were allowed I grew one over Christmas of that year.  Made it easier to correct troops with incorrectly groomed beards who assumed the SNCOs were somehow anti beard.  

I don’t care one way or the other.  I’ll enforce whatever the rules say.


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## MilEME09 (4 Nov 2021)

Devil will be in the detail, a balance between personal freedom, professionalism, and making kit work properly. If a member has short hair and wants to grow it long, do we give them a time frame like with beards? How's that going to work so hair still maintains a professional appearance in transition? 

On the issue of merit boards, I can't speak to much about it since I an PRes, but I think something akin to the Marit board needs to come to the PRes to control people who really shouldn't be promoted getting to rank up because they check the boxes and the unit needs someone.


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## Furniture (4 Nov 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> 1) Devil will be in the detail, a balance between personal freedom, professionalism, and making kit work properly. If a member has short hair and wants to grow it long, do we give them a time frame like with beards? How's that going to work so hair still maintains a professional appearance in transition?
> 
> 2) On the issue of merit boards, I can't speak to much about it since I an PRes, but I think something akin to the Marit board needs to come to the PRes to control people who really shouldn't be promoted getting to rank up because they check the boxes and the unit needs someone.


1) Women are already allowed to grow hair pretty much anywhere between shaved, and as long as they can grow it. Apply the current female standard to all, and the problem is already solved. Same goes for earrings, we already have regs covering what type, and when they can be worn.

2) Merit boards are no guarantee that duds will not get through, as anyone in the Regs can attest to. I'm sure it could help somewhat, but  sometimes a chair needs a bum, and the bum belongs to a dud.


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## KevinB (5 Nov 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> - The current merit-based process does not provide complete insight into the character of an individual member...candidates for promotion are now required to complete three evidence-based online assessments to evaluate their cognitive ability, leadership qualities, and personality... Raters are carefully selected, with specific attention given to diversity in order to minimize confirmation bias.  (this suggests diversity will trump "best person for the position.  I don't and will never support this level of PC-ness").
> 
> Some "online assessment" (with unknown weight) will now factor in and raters will be "diverse".  I'll wait for more details before deciding 'thumbs up/down', personally.  Not that THAT matters at all...


I don't like online assessments - they are rarely time sensitive - and thus give the respondent a great deal of time, to think about the "appropriate" answer - and potentially research the question as well.

 I believe that at the very least they should be Video chat (preferably in person) with trained clinical professionals who can both understand the answers/topics, as well a understand if the interviewee is being truthful.
   That manner has been used for selection of Tier 1 SOF worldwide - as well as other key positions (like folks entrusted with nuclear materials).


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## MilEME09 (5 Nov 2021)

KevinB said:


> I don't like online assessments - they are rarely time sensitive - and thus give the respondent a great deal of time, to think about the "appropriate" answer - and potentially research the question as well.
> 
> I believe that at the very least they should be Video chat (preferably in person) with trained clinical professionals who can both understand the answers/topics, as well a understand if the interviewee is being truthful.
> That manner has been used for selection of Tier 1 SOF worldwide - as well as other key positions (like folks entrusted with nuclear materials).


I'd say both, use the online assessment as a template for a professional one on one,  elaborate on various questions to see if they just answered what they think will look best.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Nov 2021)

KevinB said:


> I don't like online assessments - they are rarely time sensitive - and thus give the respondent a great deal of time, to think about the "appropriate" answer - and potentially research the question as well.
> 
> I believe that at the very least they should be Video chat (preferably in person) with trained clinical professionals who can both understand the answers/topics, as well a understand if the interviewee is being truthful.
> That manner has been used for selection of Tier 1 SOF worldwide - as well as other key positions (like folks entrusted with nuclear materials).



Current good practise is continuous performance management e.g.,:

Why Is Now the Time for Continuous Performance Management?​And why Are Companies Ditching Annual Appraisals?

Management thought leaders such as the CEB have long been advocating that performance management should be part of managers’ everyday role and that once or twice a year appraisals are not an effective use of time. But it’s no longer just academics who think this. 95% of managers are not satisfied with their organisation’s annual performance management process and 75% of employees see yearly reviews as unfair. Another study has found that only 8% of companies believe that their traditional performance management process drives business value. When looking for an alternative to annual appraisals, continuous performance management is a solution that complements and supports the pace of modern business.

Aside from the fact that more and more companies are turned off by the inefficiencies and limitations of their traditional performance management processes, there are many reasons why now is the best time to transition to a more continuous process.

Modern business is fast-paced. Companies face unexpected pressures and obstacles daily and they need a performance management system that accommodates this reality. Businesses need to be agile, to thrive and compete. They need employees who are empowered, connected and able to take ownership over their work. Continuous performance management encourages this by providing instant communication, strengthening relationships through transparent dialogue and giving employees autonomy and independence — something that greatly appeals to the modern Millennial workforce.















						What Is Continuous Performance Management?
					

Read our informative guide on Continuous Performance Management and how it can help you. Book a Free Demo today.




					www.clearreview.com


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## Brad Sallows (5 Nov 2021)

Ah, a high tech replacement for the monthly one-on-ones that were encouraged for platoon commanders 20-25 years ago.


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## OldSolduer (5 Nov 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Current good practise is continuous performance management e.g.,:
> 
> Why Is Now the Time for Continuous Performance Management?​And why Are Companies Ditching Annual Appraisals?
> 
> ...


Isn't that what the PDR system was supposed to do?


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## dangerboy (5 Nov 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Isn't that what the PDR system was supposed to do?


That is roughly what the PDR cycle was supposed to be, in fact that chart is basically what CFPAS on paper is. Or should I say was as I don't actually know what the status of CFPAS is anymore, my unit is doing a mix of CFPAS and PaCE.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Nov 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Isn't that what the PDR system was supposed to do?



Except with at least 12 x F2F meetings per year between the boss and their direct reports.


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## McG (6 Nov 2021)

dangerboy said:


> That is roughly what the PDR cycle was supposed to be, in fact that chart is basically what CFPAS on paper is. Or should I say was as I don't actually know what the status of CFPAS is anymore, my unit is doing a mix of CFPAS and PaCE.


Everyone is supposed to have stopped PDRs and switched to PaCE for that function. Only PER remain CFPAS for this year.

I assume next year, various levels of HQ will  be tracking stats of PaCE feedback sessions.


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## dangerboy (6 Nov 2021)

We did PDRs and then the PDRs were inserted into PaCE as attachments for our feedback session


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Nov 2021)

I don't have a job description yet.  My trade has been part of the PaCE trials and I've never received anything "PaCE" yet, other than my doing my MAP and monthly/important Feedbacks.

Off to a great start! 
😁


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## daftandbarmy (19 Nov 2021)

But the CAF wouldn't make this mistake, right? 


*So Your Boss Offered You a Meaningless Promotion *

_Summary.           Promotions in title only aren’t a new phenomenon. Some leaders may think that by offering you a better title, they’re honoring your contributions and showing that they value you. Some might offer promotions in title only as a way to retain talent when attrition starts..._

“She’s a vice president,” my manager chided me in front of guests. “She just doesn’t give herself credit with the title.” This was after I had introduced myself as a director, which was my actual title. For months, my manager had insisted that I use the title of vice president in my email signature, my LinkedIn profile, and when introducing myself to external parties.

Except with the vice president title, there would be no actual promotion. There would be no formal announcement. There would be no increase in base compensation, no additional stock grants, no additional headcount or resources, and no change to my bonus target. This was a “fake promotion.”

Promotions in title only aren’t a new phenomenon. Some leaders may think that by offering you a better title, they’re honoring your contributions and showing that they value you. Some might offer promotions in title only as a way to retain talent when attrition starts to spike. Or, with the pressure to show progress on their diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) commitments, some companies will be looking for shortcuts — without doing the meaningful work.

Since the “diversity tipping point” of 2020, companies have pledged more than $35 billion toward advancing racial equity. With renewed attention on the lack of representation of Black talent across many industries, companies are under pressure to have their employee bases reflect the changing demographics of the U.S. Adidas, Facebook, Salesforce, Target, and _The New York Times_ are examples of organizations across industries that have published pledges on their commitment to increasing representation of Black talent and people of color more broadly.

Additionally, with the pandemic having had a devastating impact on women, companies are under pressure to hire and advance more of them. According to the National Women’s Law Center, women’s workforce participation has already dropped to 57%, the lowest level since 1988. Movements including The Marshall Plan for Moms, founded by activist Reshma Saujani, are upping the pressure on the public and private sector to help women get back into and stay in the workforce.

Offering fake promotions can be a form of diversity washing, where organizations look for quick fixes to their public DEI commitments. Here’s what to do if you fear you may be the target of diversity washing and are being offered a fake promotion.

So Your Boss Offered You a Meaningless Promotion


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## SupersonicMax (19 Nov 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> But the CAF wouldn't make this mistake, right?
> 
> 
> *So Your Boss Offered You a Meaningless Promotion *
> ...


How many people are under-ranked in their current role?  I know many doing the work of a position requiring a higher rank without the associated benefits.  This is wrong and I would say the complicated and stringent process to give someone an AWSE rank is at least part of the issue.  Requiring CMP approval for a decision that ultimately costs the institution a couple 1000s of dollars is ridiculous…. How about you trust your L2 and L3 commanders to make the right decision???


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## SeaKingTacco (19 Nov 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> How many people are under-ranked in their current role?  I know many doing the work of a position requiring a higher rank without the associated benefits.  This is wrong and I would say the complicated and stringent process to give someone an AWSE rank is at least part of the issue.  Requiring CMP approval for a decision that ultimately costs the institution a couple 1000s of dollars is ridiculous…. How about you trust your L2 and L3 commanders to make the right decision???


I will turn this around:

how many LCols and Cols are doing work that should, more properly (and often was done, 30 decades ago) be done by Captains and Majors? 

Is not part of the problem that we have inflated the ranks “required” to do certain work out of all proportion to its importance?


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## SupersonicMax (19 Nov 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I will turn this around:
> 
> how many LCols and Cols are doing work that should, more properly (and often was done, 30 decades ago) be done by Captains and Majors?
> 
> Is not part of the problem that we have inflated the ranks “required” to do certain work out of all proportion to its importance?


That may be so but as soon as the institution says a certain position requires a certain rank, and we employ people under that rank in that position, we are failing people.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Nov 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> That may be so but as soon as the institution says a certain position requires a certain rank, and we employ people under that rank in that position, we are failing people.


But when the institution can't be trusted to stop licking its own ass then you fail the public....your raison d'etre.


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## FJAG (19 Nov 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> That may be so but as soon as the institution says a certain position requires a certain rank, and we employ people under that rank in that position, we are failing people.


As soon as the institution says a certain position requires a certain rank when it doesn't, we are failing the public.

Don't get me started on the ranks of Squadron Commander and Wing Commander. I'm an equal opportunity hater: I think infantry companies, artillery batteries and tank squadrons should all be run by senior captains, too. And then there's that everybody becomes a corporal once you can chew gum thing. ... and the non rank of master corporal. ... and ... Sigh.

The Canadian Armed Forces ... failing the public since unification/integration.

😉


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## SupersonicMax (19 Nov 2021)

FJAG said:


> As soon as the institution says a certain position requires a certain rank when it doesn't, we are failing the public.
> 
> Don't get me started on the ranks of Squadron Commander and Wing Commander. I'm an equal opportunity hater: I think infantry companies, artillery batteries and tank squadrons should all be run by senior captains, too. And then there's that everybody becomes a corporal once you can chew gum thing. ... and the non rank of master corporal. ... and ... Sigh.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree but it is not a reason to fail our own.


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## Furniture (19 Nov 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> That may be so but as soon as the institution says a certain position requires a certain rank, and we employ people under that rank in that position, we are failing people.


Given the current state of CAF staffing, that under-ranked person is likely also wearing two hats, making it even worse. No wonder we are losing people who can retire, they see years of extra work, and little appreciation or reward.


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## Halifax Tar (20 Nov 2021)

Furniture said:


> Given the current state of CAF staffing, that under-ranked person is likely also wearing two hats, making it even worse. No wonder we are losing people who can retire, they see years of extra work, and little appreciation or reward.



I worked with a CPO2 here on staff that 12 different job titles he could put on his signature block and was tasked 2 days after being posted to set up a CoC.  Because ?  He's a Chief he will will it happen.  

No suprise he lasted a year and had to tap for his own health.

Im glad he did too, he's a great guy.


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## kev994 (21 Nov 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I don't have a job description yet.  My trade has been part of the PaCE trials and I've never received anything "PaCE" yet, other than my doing my MAP and monthly/important Feedbacks.
> 
> Off to a great start!
> 😁


Classic CAF; great idea, nobody bothered to make/read/follow an implementation plan.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Nov 2021)

_I am fully committed to creating a workplace that is welcoming, inclusive, safe and respectful for every member of our team._

Right off the bat this sounds like any one of a thousand canned phrases we've all heard over and over and over. Just missing "robust" in there. Saying she's fully committed seems... I don't know. Was there an option to being partially committed? These messages have more impact if they are more personalized and not buzz phrases.


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Nov 2021)

Generally people hear that and they write you off as someone who is not going to fix anything.


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## Halifax Tar (21 Nov 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> _I am fully committed to creating a workplace that is welcoming, inclusive, safe and respectful for every member of our team._
> 
> Right off the bat this sounds like any one of a thousand canned phrases we've all heard over and over and over. Just missing "robust" in there. Saying she's fully committed seems... I don't know. Was there an option to being partially committed? These messages have more impact if they are more personalized and not buzz phrases.



Man, the first time anyone actually acts on these phrases is going to be shocking.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Nov 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> _I am fully committed to creating a workplace that is welcoming, inclusive, safe and respectful for every member of our team._
> 
> Right off the bat this sounds like any one of a thousand canned phrases we've all heard over and over and over. Just missing "robust" in there. Saying she's fully committed seems... I don't know. Was there an option to being partially committed? These messages have more impact if they are more personalized and not buzz phrases.



I always suggest adding 'or else' on the end of any bafflegab phrase like that and it will probably come off as a little more authentic.


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## OceanBonfire (29 Mar 2022)

Spotlight on culture change initiatives for military personnel
					

Here are some highlights of culture change initiatives from Chief of Military Personnel and Military Personnel Command that will have a positive impact on the lives of our military members and the overall DND workplace.




					www.canada.ca


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## Good2Golf (29 Mar 2022)

Psychometric testing for GOFOs is a positive move.  CAF Retention Strategy will be an interesting one to see.


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## dimsum (29 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Psychometric testing for GOFOs is a positive move


I first read that as "psychiatric"


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Psychometric testing for GOFOs is a positive move.  CAF Retention Strategy will be an interesting one to see.


Our current strategy of retaining the wrong people is not a good one…


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## daftandbarmy (29 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Psychometric testing for GOFOs is a positive move.  CAF Retention Strategy will be an interesting one to see.



We need to test people before they hit GOFO, though. 

Most big firms I know do the testing as part of onboarding fairly junior managers. If they're not suitable, you can mag to grid them before they can do any real damage.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Psychometric testing for GOFOs is a positive move.  CAF Retention Strategy will be an interesting one to see.



I'm more interested in how they are going chose who is retained than how they will.  The last thing we need is more people hanging on because reasons.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm more interested in how they are going chose who is retained than how they will.  The last thing we need is more people hanging on because reasons.


That is kind of my question, too.

You are a Colonel/Capt(N) who is found not suitable by psychometric testing to be a GOFO…what then?  Release?

Not that I have great deal of sympathy for our bloated senior officer corps, but if you want the good people to rise to the top and not be afraid to try for the brass ring, how do you encourage that?


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> That is kind of my question, too.
> 
> You are a Colonel/Capt(N) who is found not suitable by psychometric testing to be a GOFO…what then?  Release?
> 
> Not that I have great deal of sympathy for our bloated senior officer corps, but if you want the good people to rise to the top and not be afraid to try for the brass ring, how do you encourage that?



I think we need to start doing this, as well in the NCM corps.  Up or out.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Mar 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> That is kind of my question, too.
> 
> You are a Colonel/Capt(N) who is found not suitable by psychometric testing to be a GOFO…what then?  Release?
> 
> Not that I have great deal of sympathy for our bloated senior officer corps, but if you want the good people to rise to the top and not be afraid to try for the brass ring, how do you encourage that?



Psychometrics are only one part of an overall HR strategy, of course.

It's dangerous to lean too heavily on a 'single source of truth' testing approach because humans are a little more complicated than that.

It's also expensive to manage people properly. Specialized testing is really expensive, and assumes that your organization believes that 'people are our most important asset'. This is where any military organization will fail as they treat people like ammo.

OK, a little less carefully, and with less respect in many cases, than ammo


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## Ostrozac (29 Mar 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> You are a Colonel/Capt(N) who is found not suitable by psychometric testing to be a GOFO…what then?  Release?


Way more likely they will fill a chair in a HQ, ADM or DFL, where they will try to max out their pension, and work the bare minimum required.

In addition to the famed “Career Captain”, we currently have a cohort of “Career Majors” who are maxed out because they don’t speak any French and can’t be selected for JCSP. It looks like we want to add a group of ”Career Colonels” who we acknowledge as lacking character, and imply to be sexual deviants, but who we are happy to employ in staff and liaison functions where they will put forward minimum effort.


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## Humphrey Bogart (29 Mar 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> Way more likely they will fill a chair in a HQ, ADM or DFL, where they will try to max out their pension, and work the bare minimum required.
> 
> In addition to the famed “Career Captain”, we currently have a cohort of “Career Majors” who are maxed out because they don’t speak any French and can’t be selected for JCSP. It looks like we want to add a group of ”Career Colonels” who we acknowledge as lacking character, and imply to be sexual deviants, but who we are happy to employ in staff and liaison functions where they will put forward minimum effort.


They already have an official position for them:  Attaché 😉

They can be deviants in Brazil 😁


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## Good2Golf (29 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Psychometrics are only one part of an overall HR strategy, of course.
> 
> It's dangerous to lean too heavily on a 'single source of truth' testing approach because humans are a little more complicated than that.
> 
> ...


Offset the cost of testing with the GOFO positions that will should be reduced.  

Follow me for more HR advice. 😆


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## stoker dave (29 Mar 2022)

I can assure you that in industry if you are a senior manager and not pulling your weight, it is out the door with you.  In the last two years (or so) three vice-presidents that I know of have been let go from my organization (an organization of several thousand people bloated with vice-presidents).  Vice presidents are not allowed to ride out their last years doing minimal effort.   

As an aside, one of the reasons I left the Navy was because I was working as a Lt(N) in NDHQ for a complete slacker of a Navy Commander.  This guy had no operational experience, no leadership, no people skills.... but he was regarded as 'a highly effective bureaucrat'.  For some reason not obvious to anyone he was promoted from Cdr to Capt (N) while I was there.   I thought 'that is what this organization values?  If so, I don't want to be part of it'. That kind of environment is damaging in any number of ways.


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## dimsum (29 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> They already have an official position for them:  Attaché 😉
> 
> They can be deviants in Brazil 😁


Don't threaten me with a good time.


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## Humphrey Bogart (29 Mar 2022)

stoker dave said:


> I can assure you that in industry if you are a senior manager and not pulling your weight, it is out the door with you.  In the last two years (or so) three vice-presidents that I know of have been let go from my organization (an organization of several thousand people bloated with vice-presidents).  Vice presidents are not allowed to ride out their last years doing minimal effort.
> 
> As an aside, one of the reasons I left the Navy was because I was working as a Lt(N) in NDHQ for a complete slacker of a Navy Commander.  This guy had no operational experience, no leadership, no people skills.... but he was regarded as 'a highly effective bureaucrat'.  For some reason not obvious to anyone he was promoted from Cdr to Capt (N) while I was there.   I thought 'that is what this organization values?  If so, I don't want to be part of it'. That kind of environment is damaging in any number of ways.


You and I sing off the same sheet of music it seems 😉


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## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think we need to start doing this, as well in the NCM corps.  Up or out.


But why? I someone likes what they are doing, is good at it, and opts out of a PER, are we going to turf them just because?

Higher ranks are a very different skill set which not everyone is suited for, and in a lot of cases, totally different work which not everyone is interested in. If someone likes turning a wrench and doesn't want to take on additional responsibilities, should we get rid of them?

The US 'up and out' model has a lot of drawbacks, but they have massive numbers and pretty minimal training for new people so can make it work. We have much smaller numbers with a lot more individual training, so it's a big difference.

Forcing people to move up the ranks doesn't help retention either.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Mar 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Offset the cost of testing with the GOFO positions that will should be reduced.
> 
> Follow me for more HR advice. 😆


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> But why? I someone likes what they are doing, is good at it, and opts out of a PER, are we going to turf them just because?
> 
> Higher ranks are a very different skill set which not everyone is suited for, and in a lot of cases, totally different work which not everyone is interested in. If someone likes turning a wrench and doesn't want to take on additional responsibilities, should we get rid of them?
> 
> ...


It's almost as if the CAF is a great example of a highly inflexible and bureaucratic organization that only sees things in black or white 🤣



WebMD actually tells me we have a serious mental illness 🤣


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> But why? I someone likes what they are doing, is good at it, and opts out of a PER, are we going to turf them just because?
> 
> Higher ranks are a very different skill set which not everyone is suited for, and in a lot of cases, totally different work which not everyone is interested in. If someone likes turning a wrench and doesn't want to take on additional responsibilities, should we get rid of them?
> 
> ...



We love to talk about this mythical creature who loves their job is good at their job and who wants to stick around and who we want to stick around.  

Very few of them have all of those checks in the box. 

How long do we let people stay in and clog the system/positions ?  

Do we want a bunch a middling people hanging about ?


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## Humphrey Bogart (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We love to talk about this mythical creature who loves their job is good at their job and who wants to stick around and who we want to stick around.
> 
> Very few of them have all of those checks in the box.
> 
> ...


I personally think they should revert to 20 years for the ability to draw an immediate annuity.  Heck you could even make it 15 for NCMs like the French Military.

I would happily hang around for 2 more years and then collect a couple of thousand bucks a month for the rest of my life while doing something else.

It would help the system naturally cleanse itself I think.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We love to talk about this mythical creature who loves their job is good at their job and who wants to stick around and who we want to stick around.
> 
> Very few of them have all of those checks in the box.
> 
> ...


Opting out of PERs seems to becoming more regular, so I'm sure there are stats on that.

I think we really need to get out of the mindset that there is something with doing a job adequately. Like the movie says, if you want people to do more than the minimum, raise the minimum standard.

We have lots of tools to make sure people's performance is up to par, and a filled postion being done good enough is a hell of a lot better than an empty billet. With vacancy rates between 25-50% (or higher) across a lot of trades, really don't see anything being clogged up.

I don't think any company drives every employee to become management, so all 'up or out' accomplishes really is rank inflation, and people in Chief/Major jobs doing MCpl/2Lt work.


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## Weinie (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We love to talk about this mythical creature who loves their job is good at their job and who wants to stick around and who we want to stick around.
> 
> Very few of them have all of those checks in the box.
> 
> ...


We get middling people. We also get high performers and shyte.

I suggest that we are not in a position right now to be “righteous” about the perfect CAF creature. The vast, vast majority of folks I have served with over the last 39 years have been, at minimum, competent, and I have seen/worked with outstanding folks, from Pte to General. But not all were, nor should we expect that.

The demands on the CAF have changed markedly since I enrolled. I would suggest that some demands were needed, some were required by outside influences, and some were imposed. We are where we are…..but.

To expect a viable, high-functioning CAF while imposing unattainable expectations has been a continuous problem. I still think that the majority of CAF folks provide value for the costs incurred.

My .02


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Opting out of PERs seems to becoming more regular, so I'm sure there are stats on that.
> 
> I think we really need to get out of the mindset that there is something with doing a job adequately. Like the movie says, if you want people to do more than the minimum, raise the minimum standard.
> 
> ...





Weinie said:


> We get middling people. We also get high performers and shyte.
> 
> I suggest that we are not in a position right now to be “righteous” about the perfect CAF creature. The vast, vast majority of folks I have served with over the last 39 years have been, at minimum, competent, and I have seen/worked with outstanding folks, from Pte to General. But not all were, nor should we expect that.
> 
> ...



Well I can tell you we are quickly reaching critical mass in some trades because we've chosen to continue to employ people who are in essence only providing a half or less of the value of their salary.  

Opting out of a PER should start a clock.  After  3 years the member should be released.


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## SupersonicMax (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Opting out of a PER should start a clock.  After  3 years the member should be released.


Why?  Should every NCM be groomed to be a CAFCWO and every officer a CDS?  Many people don’t want to progress in rank and that’s absolutely okay.  Not sure why that should trigger a release…


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## rmc_wannabe (29 Mar 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Why?  Should every NCM be groomed to be a CAFCWO and every officer a CDS?  Many people don’t want to progress in rank and that’s absolutely okay.  Not sure why that should trigger a release…


Nor should every Officer be groomed to be the CDS. This is done by actually managing people's careers and figuring out what they want out of their time in uniform. 

If folks want to climb the ladder, great! lets identify these pers, see if they have the right qualities and attributes, and plot a course for them to follow. If Cpl or Capt Bloggins is great at their job and are happy at doing their job... also great! They are allowing others move forward and filling roles that need to be filled. If Cpl Bloggins knows that this is a 5 year gig before he leaves? Cool. Lets make sure those 5 years are meaningful and useful to the CAF and the mbr. If MCpl McFuckknuckles is a bottom performer and sees himself riding 25 years to a pension on minimal work... I don't care how hard up for people we are; don't offer that mbr an IE25.

We have a bad problem with talent and personnel management within the CAF. "Career Management" has become "Position Management", much to our detriment. Until we start looking at these situations as "right person for the right job" instead of "fill the hole this APS and hope for the best.." We're going to have a bad time at all levels.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Why?  Should every NCM be groomed to be a CAFCWO and every officer a CDS?  Many people don’t want to progress in rank and that’s absolutely okay.  Not sure why that should trigger a release…



Fair.  At what point has ones inability or choice to not progress become a hindrance to the further development of others ?

How long do we let someone hold up positions and locations ?  

That's why I said 3 years, that's seems reasonable to give someone a chance to set themselves up for a life after the CAF.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Fair.  At what point has ones inability to choice to not progress become a hindrance to the further development of others ?
> 
> How long do we let someone hold up positions and locations ?
> 
> That's why I said 3 years, that's seems reasonable to give someone a chance to set themselves up for a life after the CAF.


I think it really depends on the occupation.

A 15 year Cpl turning wrenches on aircraft is generally seen as an expert; a SME; a gold mine of corporate knowledge. Assuming they are not just hiding in canteen. But, that is what leaders are for.

If a trade is under borne or at PML, I don’t see a problem.

If a trade is overborne, I would look first at getting rid of the low hanging fruit of the problem children before I necessarily get rid of career Cpls (yes, the Venn diagram may overlap).


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Look I've been that guy who lived out of duffle bag doing pier head jumps for years and coming home to an empty apartment after deployments while the same people who shared my ranks and trade continued malingering and holding up other and not carrying their weight.

We need to do better at shedding dead weight.  I'd rather lose another 25% if it meant it was the cancers and oxygen thiefs who we lost. 

My only concern is that we just retain people because reasons.  If we're going to retain someone it needs to done very selectively and with concern for the organisation.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Look I've been that guy who lived out of duffle bag doing pier head jumps for years and coming home to an empty apartment after deployments while the same people who shared my ranks and trade continued malingering and holding up other and not carrying their weight.
> 
> We need to do better at shedding dead weight.  I'd rather lose another 25% if it meant it was the cancers and oxygen thiefs who we lost.
> 
> My only concern is that we just retain people because reasons.  If we're going to retain someone it needs to done very selectively and with concern for the organisation.


I think you are conflating promotion and retention.  Someone can be really gung ho and want to get promoted, and still be a soup sandwhich that should be released. Someone can be happy where they are and still have a lot of valuable contributions to the CAF at that rank.

There are positions that are flagged for 'up and comers', but still far more empty billets where we could just someone competent that knows what they are doing, so who cares if they have career intentions?

Most places it's the absolute norm to have most people stay in roughly the same spot for their career, and only promote those with the desire/competence. We have more than enough tools to either get people up to competence, or release them, but not everyone has to be an astronaut (and even the worst astronaut is still a highly qualified person).

Funnily enough, comparing the trade progression now to about 10 years ago people are now hitting PO1 when they would have previously been senior LS in line for PLQ, so we're actually promoting far quicker than historically, which means a lot less cumulative experience in senior people (and officers similarly have less sea time/experience). So it's fast enough it's a genuine issue, as the system is still built around the assumption that we have those really experienced senior LS doing maintenance.


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## cyber_lass (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> But why? I someone likes what they are doing, is good at it, and opts out of a PER, are we going to turf them just because?
> 
> Higher ranks are a very different skill set which not everyone is suited for, and in a lot of cases, totally different work which not everyone is interested in. If someone likes turning a wrench and doesn't want to take on additional responsibilities, should we get rid of them?
> 
> ...


I come from the private sector and we have the problem (at least in tech) that many people want to move up to "management" because it means higher pay, not because they want to leave being technical. For the longest time there was no way to get more pay increases without going into management. So that it was just assumed you would go into management. Many just are not suited for that role.  Now there is more push for tech leads and leadership/higher pay grade work within the "hands on" group of roles. This is something I can see as an issue if people can chose to stay technical.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

cyber_lass said:


> I come from the private sector and we have the problem (at least in tech) that many people want to move up to "management" because it means higher pay, not because they want to leave being technical. For the longest time there was no way to get more pay increases without going into management. So that it was just assumed you would go into management. Many just are not suited for that role.  Now there is more push for tech leads and leadership/higher pay grade work within the "hands on" group of roles. This is something I can see as an issue if people can chose to stay technical.


Same thing here; we could do some things like add additional pay levels at each rank, but generally the more management you take on the higher the pay potential is. At least some of the tech trades have spec pay when they reach certain milestones, but promotion always comes with a pay bump.

Still, we collectively make a pretty solid salary, so you still do better than a good chunk of the Canadian population. Personnally looking at what comes with some of the more senior ranks and the pay to me isn't worth the work/life imbalance, and prefer the kind of work I'm currently doing, so might opt out. But with the CAF culture that can lead to punishment postings etc, which is equally stupid when there are way more holes than people to do them.


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## Quirky (29 Mar 2022)

There will always be issues with promotions and retention when CF pay is tied to rank rather than competence. Your top performers who can fix things are promoted into management, planted into office jobs and generally hate their life. Personally, I joined to turn wrenches and loved it, but staying a junior NCM meant a lower salary forever.


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## Brad Sallows (29 Mar 2022)

> I come from the private sector and we have the problem (at least in tech) that many people want to move up to "management" because it means higher pay, not because they want to leave being technical.



Some companies figured that out long ago and restructured their occupational specifications to increase the comp ranges for non-management.


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## dapaterson (29 Mar 2022)

Abolish MCpl pay rates.  Give MCpls a monthly allowance of $240 or so.  Expand Cpl pay rates by another 3-4 Pay Incentives to gently overlap Sgt basic pay.

To fund it, for one year give the CAF a zero pay increase.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I think you are conflating promotion and retention.  Someone can be really gung ho and want to get promoted, and still be a soup sandwhich that should be released. Someone can be happy where they are and still have a lot of valuable contributions to the CAF at that rank.
> 
> There are positions that are flagged for 'up and comers', but still far more empty billets where we could just someone competent that knows what they are doing, so who cares if they have career intentions?
> 
> ...



Negative.  Retention has massive impacts on promotion and the ops tempos of other pers. 

So do we retain evey Cpl/S1 who decides they don't like promotion and just want a day job ?  

Bet we very quickly run out of second and third line billets to manage people's ops cycles with.  Rinse and repeat with greater effect the higher up you go. 

Oh wait were having that problem now, so why don't we just exasperate it ?

Not everyone has to be in competition for CAFCWO but if you've been in for rank for 3+ years post EPZ with no potential or desire for advancement, what value are you are you to the organization anymore ?  Who are you holding up ?  And what impact on others ops tempos are you having ?


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## Brash (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Negative.  Retention has massive impacts on promotion and the ops tempos of other pers.
> 
> So do we retain evey Cpl/S1 who decides they don't like promotion and just want a day job ?
> 
> ...


So wait, now you want to drum out skilled people because _checks notes_ they want to do their job. Is that correct?
Only from the navy.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Negative.  Retention has massive impacts on promotion and the ops tempos of other pers.
> 
> So do we retain evey Cpl/S1 who decides they don't like promotion and just want a day job ?
> 
> ...


Why does everything have to be either/or to you?

I do not see how having some career Cpls/S3 will doom our career management system.


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## dimsum (29 Mar 2022)

Brash said:


> Only from the navy.


I've heard that from people wearing other DEU colours too.  I disagree with them, but for some, the sentiment is there.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We love to talk about this mythical creature who loves their job is good at their job and who wants to stick around and who we want to stick around.
> 
> Very few of them have all of those checks in the box.
> 
> ...





Halifax Tar said:


> Fair.  At what point has ones inability or choice to not progress become a hindrance to the further development of others ?
> 
> How long do we let someone hold up positions and locations ?
> 
> That's why I said 3 years, that's seems reasonable to give someone a chance to set themselves up for a life after the CAF.





Halifax Tar said:


> Negative.  Retention has massive impacts on promotion and the ops tempos of other pers.
> 
> So do we retain every Cpl/S1 who decides they don't like promotion and just want a day job ?
> 
> ...





Halifax Tar said:


> Look I've been that guy who lived out of duffle bag doing pier head jumps for years and coming home to an empty apartment after deployments while the same people who shared my ranks and trade continued malingering and holding up other and not carrying their weight.
> 
> We need to do better at shedding dead weight.  I'd rather lose another 25% if it meant it was the cancers and oxygen thiefs who we lost.
> 
> My only concern is that we just retain people because reasons.  If we're going to retain someone it needs to done very selectively and with concern for the organization.





SeaKingTacco said:


> Why does everything have to be either/or to you?
> 
> I do not see how having some career Cpls/S3 will doom our career management system.



Its not, re-read my posts.  My concern is that we retain the right people; for the right reasons; for the right amount of time.  Not just anyone who wants it because they want a civilian job in in uniform for an indefinite amount of time. 

While we should be concerned for the individual the focus needs to remain on the organization and mission. 



Brash said:


> So wait, now you want to drum out skilled people because _checks notes_ they want to do their job. Is that correct?
> Only from the navy.



We have a Navy that has too many empty billets and too many billets half filled by pers on MELs and retentions.  And this only causes more of our fit and able people to be burned out, as they cant get the breaks the deserve. 

At what point do we stop sacrificing the fit and able for the sake of the unfit and unable ?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Well I can tell you we are quickly reaching critical mass in some trades because we've chosen to continue to employ people who are in essence only providing a half or less of the value of their salary.



Those people should be properly scores on PER/PARs and consideration for further service after their current TOS shouldn’t be done in the spirit of lip service.   However, I suspect trade health has a lot to do with these decisions.  An amber or red trade Career Manager still needs to put names in positions.  



Halifax Tar said:


> Opting out of a PER should start a clock.  After  3 years the member should be released.



I can’t agree, respectfully.  I know some very good Majors who have no interest in being a CO.  I know many WOs and MWOs who have similar interest in the CWO/CPO1 Corps (I’m one to them).

Those Officer and Warrant/Petty Officers still have much to offer the CAF.  Cling-ons who are just adding 2%/year to their pension can be encouraged to reconsider their choice via other means (undesired posting for example).

Up or out has more cons than pro’s IMO.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Those people should be properly scores on PER/PARs and consideration for further service after their current TOS shouldn’t be done in the spirit of lip service.   However, I suspect trade health has a lot to do with these decisions.  An amber or red trade Career Manager still needs to put names in positions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok.  I see your point.  Let me counter you with how many? For how long ?  In what positions ?


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> but if you've been in for rank for 3+ years post EPZ with no potential or desire for advancement, what value are you are you to the organization anymore ?


On the other hand there are people in rank for 3+ years post EZP with potential and desire to advance but they don't speak french, have enough volunteer time, or aren't in the in crowd to merit?

Before we punt people for not wanting to play a larger role in the system we should consider fixing the system to make it more attractive to want to be a part of.

Regarding sacrificing the fit for the unfit, completely agree. However that's something that needs to be sorted out with our medical system. It's beyond frustrating sending troops out the door on multiple taskings with no breaks because their peers have no tacvest chits because of their bad backs while they're in the gym every day deadlifting hundreds of pounds.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

So AR anyone who opts out is going to somehow make empty billets better? Christ on crutches, any other organization would be really happy to have qualified, capable skilled trades that are happy to do their job. If someone wants to stick around for 10 years as a corporal/captain, and they do everything they are supposed to do, no idea how that clogs up a system running at 50%-70% manning levels. They aren't considered for career courses or promotion so the are literally outside of any considerations for advancement.

Tying up ships and sizing our ops tempo to the number of healthy crews available is the only thing that can fix what you are talking about. Retaining qualified people, and recruiting more to fill the holes does that. Someone can be productive and happy with where they are without wanting to jump up to the next rank. Not retaining non-productive people is a completely unrelated issue, as is MELs.

We can keep people in the ranks they are happy with while concurrently shedding dead weight, and promoting capable and willing people. There really isn't an all/nothing approach required.

The 'up and out' attitude reminds me of 'if you don't like it, find something else' mantra. People say that, then wonder why people leave. We try to patch holes by supplementing with contractors for maintenance, so lots of opportunities for qualified maintainers to jump to industry to do the same jobs we would pay them for, but puts us deeper into the hole for going to sea. Similarly, we tell everyone they are sailors first, then are surprised when the engineering depts get tired of coming in early and leaving late and want to come in a 730 and leave at secure like the rest of the crew.


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## Brad Sallows (29 Mar 2022)

There's math involved.  It's fine to have long-term coal-face employees, assuming the organization is roughly a pyramid.  But if not everyone is going to make the cut at each level, how many slots can be clogged by lifers before the number of prospectives at level N preparing for N+1 is too few to provide a healthy selection pool?


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So AR anyone who opts out is going to somehow make empty billets better? Christ on crutches, any other organization would be really happy to have qualified, capable skilled trades that are happy to do their job. If someone wants to stick around for 10 years as a corporal/captain, and they do everything they are supposed to do, no idea how that clogs up a system running at 50%-70% manning levels. They aren't considered for career courses or promotion so the are literally outside of any considerations for advancement.
> 
> Tying up ships and sizing our ops tempo to the number of healthy crews available is the only thing that can fix what you are talking about. Retaining qualified people, and recruiting more to fill the holes does that. Someone can be productive and happy with where they are without wanting to jump up to the next rank. Not retaining non-productive people is a completely unrelated issue, as is MELs.
> 
> ...



But if they don't want to be promoted, how can they be trusted by the people who do?

I mean, it's too risky if they won't back up any of your mad cap schemes at self-promotion to feather their own nests


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> There's math involved.  It's fine to have long-term coal-face employees, assuming the organization is roughly a pyramid.  But if not everyone is going to make the cut at each level, how many slots can be clogged by lifers before the number of prospectives at level N preparing for N+1 is too few to provide a healthy selection pool?



Thank you!


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So AR anyone who opts out is going to somehow make empty billets better? Christ on crutches, any other organization would be really happy to have qualified, capable skilled trades that are happy to do their job. If someone wants to stick around for 10 years as a corporal/captain, and they do everything they are supposed to do, no idea how that clogs up a system running at 50%-70% manning levels. They aren't considered for career courses or promotion so the are literally outside of any considerations for advancement.
> 
> Tying up ships and sizing our ops tempo to the number of healthy crews available is the only thing that can fix what you are talking about. Retaining qualified people, and recruiting more to fill the holes does that. Someone can be productive and happy with where they are without wanting to jump up to the next rank. Not retaining non-productive people is a completely unrelated issue, as is MELs.
> 
> ...


But, see Brad just below. It's a question (and answer) of balance.


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## Kilted (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Look I've been that guy who lived out of duffle bag doing pier head jumps for years and coming home to an empty apartment after deployments while the same people who shared my ranks and trade continued malingering and holding up other and not carrying their weight.
> 
> We need to do better at shedding dead weight.  I'd rather lose another 25% if it meant it was the cancers and oxygen thiefs who we lost.
> 
> My only concern is that we just retain people because reasons.  If we're going to retain someone it needs to done very selectively and with concern for the organisation.


And the army is starting to get Sgt qualified Pte's.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> There's math involved.  It's fine to have long-term coal-face employees, assuming the organization is roughly a pyramid.  But if not everyone is going to make the cut at each level, how many slots can be clogged by lifers before the number of prospectives at level N preparing for N+1 is too few to provide a healthy selection pool?


From my limited observations since the opt in came in place as an option, we're really only talking a few people at each rank when we do the bun tosses, so 10% or less are opting out? It's not common, and usually the money is enough to motivate most people, but as you get more senior the number of positions at the next rank tapers off pretty significantly. But after reaching OFP, promotion is something like 10%-20%, so still a huge pool of candidates. Honestly think the issue is we're so short of people we're promoting people too fast, so no idea how anyone can possibly be 'clogging' the system in this environment.

Sure there are some small, specialized trades with really small numbers above them, but that's not the case for most people. In all the ones I've personnally been involved in on the Navy side it's been people who just wanted to serve out their contract at their current rank and didn't want to waste time doing different career courses, so saved the CAF money on training that would have no use and they filled jobs that needed doing. Win/win in my books.

I'm sure there are people on the occ manager side tracking this, but honestly if we start having really high numbers saying they have no interest to get promoted to the point where it is impacting operational effectiveness, probably a good indication that the CAF has fundamentally broken itself.


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> From my limited observations since the opt in came in place as an option, we're really only talking a few people at each rank when we do the bun tosses, so 10% or less are opting out? It's not common, and usually the money is enough to motivate most people, but as you get more senior the number of positions at the next rank tapers off pretty significantly. But after reaching OFP, promotion is something like 10%-20%, so still a huge pool of candidates. Honestly think the issue is we're so short of people we're promoting people too fast, so no idea how anyone can possibly be 'clogging' the system in this environment.
> 
> Sure there are some small, specialized trades with really small numbers above them, but that's not the case for most people. In all the ones I've personnally been involved in on the Navy side it's been people who just wanted to serve out their contract at their current rank and didn't want to waste time doing different career courses, so saved the CAF money on training that would have no use and they filled jobs that needed doing. Win/win in my books.
> 
> I'm sure there are people on the occ manager side tracking this, but honestly if we start having really high numbers saying they have no interest to get promoted to the point where it is impacting operational effectiveness, probably a good indication that the CAF has fundamentally broken itself.



Ok so again, how many ?  For how long ? In what positions ? 

I can tell you for PO1 Sup Tech positions in MARLANT recently we had, out of 11 positions, other than those already deployed, no deployable PO1s.  Also 4 of those positions were held by pers on retention.  Which means we had 1 position to try and cycle 6 sea going PO1s through to provide respite from the Ops Tempo.  

I can guarantee you, that people who opt are aren't going to be keen to keep up a high ops tempo.

So if we are going to continue to allow any pers to opt out and continue to offer  indefinite lateral employment it can only be if the situation it's advantageous for the organisation, the pers and their peers.  And it should be reviewed periodically to ensure the advantageous situation remains.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

Right, and that sucks, but you are trying to extrapolate the theoretical impact on 11 people in a single formation to the entire CAF.

Lots of scenarios where it's a good option for a lot of people, and some cases where it's not. Baby/bathwater though.


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Right, and that sucks, but you are trying to extrapolate the theoretical impact on 11 people in a single formation to the entire CAF.
> 
> Lots of scenarios where it's a good option for a lot of people, and some cases where it's not. Baby/bathwater though.



So we agree then ? 



Halifax Tar said:


> So if we are going to continue to allow any pers to opt out and continue to offer indefinite lateral employment it can only be if the situation it's advantageous for the organisation, the pers and their peers.  And it should be reviewed periodically to ensure the advantageous situation remains.


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## SupersonicMax (29 Mar 2022)

Only in the CAF would folks suggest we purposefully let good people go because they don’t want to progress up the ladder….  I am sure there are other non-trade specific positions those folks could go to.  Having said this, the target audience for lateral progression career should be at the Cpl/MCpl and Capt/Maj level.  In fact, the pilot and SARTEC pay has recently been adjusted to encourage exactly that.  Some incentive levels require specific qualifications to « unlock . ». A Cpl with 20 years in rank makes around 12K a month.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Only in the CAF would folks suggest we purposefully let good people go because they don’t want to progress up the ladder….  I am sure there are other non-trade specific positions those folks could go to.  Having said this, the target audience for lateral progression career should be at the Cpl/MCpl and Capt/Maj level.  In fact, the pilot and SARTEC pay has recently been adjusted to encourage exactly that.  Some incentive levels require specific qualifications to « unlock . ». A Cpl with 20 years in rank makes around 12K a month.



Again, how many ?  How long ? What positions ? 

It's all fine and dandy to talk of SARTECHs and Pilots.  But when the PO2 Bosn can't get a shore posting because his peers have nailed them down on indefinite lateral employment or MELs what do we do ?  And this will happen, it's happening already.

1 person at the CPO2 level who ops out causes ripple effects all the way down that trade and jams up progression as they warm seats the up and coming can't fill.  Now that multiply that throughout the ranks in a trade and add in MELs and now we've created a monster.


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## SupersonicMax (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Again, how many ?  How long ? What positions ?
> 
> It's all fine and dandy to talk of SARTECHs and Pilots.  But when the PO2 Bosn can't get a shore posting because his peers have nailed them down on indefinite lateral employment or MELs what do we do ?  And this will happen, it's happening already.


Send them to a purple job.


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## dapaterson (29 Mar 2022)

There is a difference between "I am employable and opting out of PERs because I want to continue doing this sort of work" and retention for medical reasons (which on paper should not exceed three years).


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Send them to a purple job.



So now your going to geographically relocate the bosn and their family ?  

Sounds very CAF.  Thanks for yours and your families sacrifice in this high ops tempo period, now pack up and move.  We need to keep these spots here for those who opted out.


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## SupersonicMax (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So now your going to geographically relocate the bosn and their family ?
> 
> Sounds very CAF.  Thanks for yours and your families sacrifice in this high ops tempo period, now pack up and move.  We need to keep these spots here for those who opted out.


No. Make them work remotely.  There is now a process by which members can ask to work remotely.  If that is not possible then yes, post them, like other elements do?


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## dimsum (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> But when the PO2 Bosn can't get a shore posting because his peers have nailed them down on indefinite lateral employment or MELs what do we do ?


Wait - if said peers have an MEL that means they can't sail, why are they still in that trade?  A TCAT, sure...but if it becomes permanent?

If I lost my aircrew medical category, I don't stay in my current trade.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

dimsum said:


> Wait - if said peers have an MEL that means they can't sail, why are they still in that trade?  A TCAT, sure...but if it becomes permanent?
> 
> If I lost my aircrew medical category, I don't stay in my current trade.



MELs can go on for years.  People can tie up positions for long periods of time with those and still remain in trade and in receipt of financial allowances too.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> No. Make them work remotely.  There is now a process by which members can ask to work remotely.  If that is not possible then yes, post them, like other elements do?



I'd rather we punt the opted out/MEL/retention member away on that posting and keep the Bosun here.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ok so again, how many ?  For how long ? In what positions ?
> 
> I can tell you for PO1 Sup Tech positions in MARLANT recently we had, out of 11 positions, other than those already deployed, no deployable PO1s.  Also 4 of those positions were held by pers on retention.  Which means we had 1 position to try and cycle 6 sea going PO1s through to provide respite from the Ops Tempo.
> 
> ...


Your argument is a mess. You are conflating two completely different things as if they are the same. What does being on a MEL and unfit sea have anything to do “I am fit for duty and enjoy sailing, but would rather not be promoted past PO2”?


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## SupersonicMax (29 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'd rather we punt the opted out/MEL/retention member away on that posting and keep the Bosun here.


So, they want a break from sailing or not? If younhave a limitee amount of shore positions in Halifax/Esquimalt, how do you expect people take a break?  Like other trades at the Sgt/WO level, there are breaks available at HHQs.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ok.  I see your point.  Let me counter you with how many? For how long ?  In what positions ?



The easiest way is to just not offer further TOS.  If someone is just under-performing, administer an adverse PDR/PAcE equivalent and if needed, Remedial Measures.  The CAF needs to do the paperwork justify things like ARs for horribly underperforming people; when the CAF doesn’t, the AR will fail because someone was lazy and the mbr is protected with procedural fairness.  

How many people?  As many as the Career Manager needs for the trade to produce what the CAF expects it to.  How long?  Depending on trade health, I’d say.

Positions?  If it is someone who is making the superiors life difficult, their MAP and PAC form (Posting advisory committee) tells where they want to be and what they want to do.  So the opposite of that?  😬


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## Humphrey Bogart (30 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So AR anyone who opts out is going to somehow make empty billets better? Christ on crutches, any other organization would be really happy to have qualified, capable skilled trades that are happy to do their job. If someone wants to stick around for 10 years as a corporal/captain, and they do everything they are supposed to do, no idea how that clogs up a system running at 50%-70% manning levels. They aren't considered for career courses or promotion so the are literally outside of any considerations for advancement.
> 
> Tying up ships and sizing our ops tempo to the number of healthy crews available is the only thing that can fix what you are talking about. Retaining qualified people, and recruiting more to fill the holes does that. Someone can be productive and happy with where they are without wanting to jump up to the next rank. Not retaining non-productive people is a completely unrelated issue, as is MELs.
> 
> ...


Imagine working in an organization, whose only real job is legitimately using violence on behalf of the State and you get a person who is like "I'm really good at being XXX and I just want to do that to help the organization achieve it's primary mission".

The organization replies "that's great Capt XXX that you are a really good warfighter and wanna manage some violence and all that but we are kinda pissed that you didn't get your second language profile and turned down a job at CFRG so like you better go find a new job"

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Only the Military would invest $$$$Millions of dollars training someone only to never employ them at said job.  Not only that, they'll waste more money and time on people that they've invested nothing in and are unproven commodities.  

They will spend no time investing more money in to proven commodities and won't even care if they leave LOL


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

I just wanted into point out, not everyone who is on a PCAT is unfit their current trade, flying/sailing/deploying and gives up environmental allowances. 

Not everyone who is on a PCAT breeches UoS, either.  They have MELs likely; the L stands for limitations. 

Using a P2 hard navy trade as an example; mbr is assessed a PCAT but can still serve, just not fully 100% “unlimited”.  Say, they need specialist assessment annually.  Maybe they can’t sail on extended deployments longer than 2 month without having an out of sequence Part 1 and/or Part 2 medical.

I see a prime candidate for an instructor billet.   Mbr progresses in rank, now a P1 and goes into a shore Ops billet or CJOC.   Continues to progress and contribute, posted to a LCMM or Career Manager billet, or CFLRS or…

The CAF invests dollars into every person we train.   We need to look at mbrs, even ones on MELs and PCATs as investments and look for how we can best continue to draw from that investment. 

I suggest that approach might even be financially responsible to our bosses;  Canadian tax payers.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> No. Make them work remotely.  There is now a process by which members can ask to work remotely.  If that is not possible then yes, post them, like other elements do?



There was a CANFORGEN released very recently on remote work/ postings.  I haven’t  read the Instr yet…


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

Double post, sorry.


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## Humphrey Bogart (30 Mar 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I just wanted into point out, not everyone who is on a PCAT is unfit their current trade, flying/sailing/deploying and gives up environmental allowances.
> 
> Not everyone who is on a PCAT breeches UoS, either.  They have MELs likely; the L stands for limitations.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong, there is a time when it's time for someone to retire.  That's why I am a big fan of drawing an immediate annuity earlier.

Personally, I think NCMs should be able to draw a pension at 15 years and Officers at 20 years. 

There are some jobs in particular:

SOF, Divers, SAR Tech, Combat Arms, Aircrew, etc where it's a young persons game.  The career window for those individuals is shorter and they should be able to retire earlier on a reduced pension.

I also believe in age limits for certain occupations as well.  But that's for another discussion entirely.


As far as talent management goes though, the CAF literally doesn't do it.  There are also too many trades, particularly in the Officer world.  

Many Officer jobs that are tied to a trade, particularly a lot of support jobs, could be filled by any GSO.  Ditto a lot of jobs in the NCM world.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> MELs can go on for years.  People can tie up positions for long periods of time with those and still remain in trade and in receipt of financial allowances too.



The CBI is actually pretty clear on when mbrs stop receiving things like environmental allowances including SDA:






						Chapter 205- Allowances for officers and non-commissioned members - Canada.ca
					

Chapter 205 - Allowances for officers and non-commissioned-members




					www.canada.ca
				




Specifically, 205.15(2) sub-para’s B and C.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Don't get me wrong, there is a time when it's time for someone to retire.  That's why I am a big fan of drawing an immediate annuity earlier.
> 
> Personally, I think NCMs should be able to draw a pension at 15 years and Officers at 20 years.
> 
> ...



Agree ‘mostly’.  Some fleets are easier on the body than others and mbrs can, on average, handle operational flying longer.  LRP AES Ops compared to MH AES Ops is a quick example;  MH is fairly significantly more physically demanding than Aurora life.

Age;  is a better metric “fitness and health”?



Humphrey Bogart said:


> As far as talent management goes though, the CAF literally doesn't do it.  There are also too many trades, particularly in the Officer world.
> 
> Many Officer jobs that are tied to a trade, particularly a lot of support jobs, could be filled by any GSO.  Ditto a lot of jobs in the NCM world.



Maybe the CAF should consider a career stream called “ATR”;  as an AES Op I could request it at “insert YOS and/or Rank gate” and would commit myself to never flying again.  Incoukd end up as NCO IC pencils at CJOC, or recruiting, or… any position deemed suitable for ATR folks.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Your argument is a mess. You are conflating two completely different things as if they are the same. What does being on a MEL and unfit sea have anything to do “I am fit for duty and enjoy sailing, but would rather not be promoted past PO2”?



It's not.  It rolls into the same ball of 2nd and 3rd line positions being tied up for years with the static people while we strain the deployable people to their limits and break them.

Opting out, MELs and retention all adds to clog a system and only adds to to the strain. 

My offered solution here was offer no retentions in Halifax/Esq.  As all of those billites are required to maintain a sea to shore ratio.  Offer those positions in static bases like Ottawa or Borden.  Cant really do anything about MELs or Opting Out.

The big issue with opting out is the volume per rank in trade.  Trades are a pyramid.  Every person who opts out from MCpl and above adds to the congestion.  And there is a critical mass if we simply allow any to opt out.  Take the MWO rank. Say your trade has 20 MWO positions is 5 opt out that big hit on the available positions to develop further MWOs.  That the ripples down the pyramid and amplifies as it goes. 

It's fine to use the Cpl RCAF tech as the exception but indefinite lateral employment will multiply over time and cause congestion their as well.  Also it's offered to all ranks, not sure about GO/FOs, and I see more opting out at the Sgt and above level than anywhere else.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Imagine working in an organization, whose only real job is legitimately using violence on behalf of the State and you get a person who is like "I'm really good at being XXX and I just want to do that to help the organization achieve it's primary mission".
> 
> The organization replies "that's great Capt XXX that you are a really good warfighter and wanna manage some violence and all that but we are kinda pissed that you didn't get your second language profile and turned down a job at CFRG so like you better go find a new job"
> 
> ...



You know I am sympathetic with your situation.  We've discussed this.  

We need to find a balance.  We have a job to do.  And you know as well as I that if we continue down this same path in the not so distant future were going to have a hard time scrapping together a crew for an Orca let alone a CPF. 

We have massive culture obstacles to overcome in the RCN.  No fight from me on that front.  But also have a job to do until the big heads call an OP pause have us go secure our spaces for a while we have to continue to shovel coal into the boilers.


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## dimsum (30 Mar 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Maybe the CAF should consider a career stream called “ATR”;  as an AES Op I could request it at “insert YOS and/or Rank gate” and would commit myself to never flying again.  Incoukd end up as NCO IC pencils at CJOC, or recruiting, or… any position deemed suitable for ATR folks.



I'm guessing this would break the (archaic) system, but unless you're in specific staff spots that require that specialized knowledge (like DAR/DLR/DNR for a specific project) I'd argue that most, if not all, staff jobs should be ATR with a rank band of 2 ranks (e.g. Capt/Major).  

I'm not sure why you need to be a specific trade to be an MCC at a certain CFRC.  I guess it's to balance it out so it's not all filled by ACSOs or something (it's not) but CFRG would be a good test case for the "ATR, rank only" requirement.


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## dapaterson (30 Mar 2022)

ATR positions are assigned as BLMC to occupations.  And most occs would rather let a position go empty than let another occ fill and potentially promote one more person.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

dapaterson said:


> ATR positions are assigned as BLMC to occupations.  And most occs would rather let a position go empty than let another occ fill and potentially promote one more person.



That always drives me nuts.  I've seen some real creative work by CMs and Ive seen some that considered it their own kingdom.  

When I was at JSR we had a Hull Tech posted into to a Mat Tech position so him and his wife could be colocated.  That's how we should do business.


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## dimsum (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That always drives me nuts.  I've seen some real creative work by CMs and Ive seen some that considered it their own kingdom.
> 
> When I was at JSR we had a Hull Tech posted into to a Mat Tech position so him and his wife could be colocated.  That's how we should do business.


I'll say that I'm in a billet that's not technically for my occupation, and it's not ATR.  

I'm not sure how widespread that is in the CAF though.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'll say that I'm in a billet that's not technically for my occupation, and it's not ATR.
> 
> I'm not sure how widespread that is in the CAF though.



We need to do this more especially for ATR or where transferable skills can be employed, a good example being the Hull Tech in a Mat Tech position.  They chew some of the same dirt.


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## Good2Golf (30 Mar 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'll say that I'm in a billet that's not technically for my occupation, and it's not ATR.
> 
> I'm not sure how widespread that is in the CAF though.


Knowing you and the org, that is ludicrous.  An honest Establishment Review is long overdue.  BLMC state is but one symptom of a dysfunctional organization.


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## KevinB (30 Mar 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> That is kind of my question, too.
> 
> You are a Colonel/Capt(N) who is found not suitable by psychometric testing to be a GOFO…what then?  Release?
> 
> Not that I have great deal of sympathy for our bloated senior officer corps, but if you want the good people to rise to the top and not be afraid to try for the brass ring, how do you encourage that?


I apologize for being several pages late - but clearly a cage match.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

KevinB said:


> I apologize for being several pages late - but clearly a cage match.



What about a duel ? Pistols at dawn ?


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## Remius (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> What about a duel ? Pistols at dawn ?


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## dapaterson (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> What about a duel ? Pistols at dawn ?


We need to complete the pistol procurement first


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## KevinB (30 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Don't get me wrong, there is a time when it's time for someone to retire.  That's why I am a big fan of drawing an immediate annuity earlier.
> 
> Personally, I think NCMs should be able to draw a pension at 15 years and Officers at 20 years.
> 
> ...


I'd argue at lot of those trades provide a pool for occupational transfers.

Assaulter Bloggins may not be able to kick door, turn left as well as they did 10 years ago - but the experience they have can (and should) be retained - have them work GeoSpacial with UAV ISR teams to give "a guy on the ground perspective".  There are also some good SOF roles that are not as physically demanding.

If you let folks go at 15 years - there is a lot of institutional knowledge than would be lost.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> I also believe in age limits for certain occupations as well.  But that's for another discussion entirely.


In 2016 at 46 yrs of age, I was the second oldest competitor ever in the USASOC Sniper Comp (Angry Bob S - the former Unit CSM is the only older competitor).  My partner and I beat several teams of younger folks - and unlike 2 SEAL Teams, and one other team, we competed the Rifle Stress Course with the exterior ladder climb (ladder starts 12' off the ground).
  The CAG Team of Angry Bob and Sean W won the comp that year - and where the oldest team of the field.

I'd argue it isn't age - but physical and mental fitness that should be a limit.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> As far as talent management goes though, the CAF literally doesn't do it.  There are also too many trades, particularly in the Officer world.
> 
> Many Officer jobs that are tied to a trade, particularly a lot of support jobs, could be filled by any GSO.  Ditto a lot of jobs in the NCM world.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You know I am sympathetic with your situation.  We've discussed this.
> 
> We need to find a balance.  We have a job to do.  And you know as well as I that if we continue down this same path in the not so distant future were going to have a hard time scrapping together a crew for an Orca let alone a CPF.
> 
> We have massive culture obstacles to overcome in the RCN.  No fight from me on that front.  But also have a job to do until the big heads call an OP pause have us go secure our spaces for a while we have to continue to shovel coal into the boilers.


I agree with you on the job piece and I think I misunderstood your initial point.  For my own clarity, what you're saying is that we need people to sail when called upon?

I agree with that sentiment, as a counter-point to that though, I would say there has to be a purpose to the sailing and that purpose has to be grounded in some sort operational reason.

Likewise, I would say that the Navy has failed, as an institution, at the task of leadership.

By leadership what I mean is "the art of convincing someone to do something they wouldn't otherwise want to".

If the Navy actually understood leadership, it wouldn't have such an issue crewing Ships or finding people that want to do the job. 

We know the Navy doesn't have good leadership though and if we pay attention to the media, basically everyone and their dog knows it has terrible leadership as well. 

That same idea goes for the CAF writ large today but particular attention needs to be given to the Navy as it's got its own special cancer that need to be irradiated.



Eye In The Sky said:


> Agree ‘mostly’.  Some fleets are easier on the body than others and mbrs can, on average, handle operational flying longer.  LRP AES Ops compared to MH AES Ops is a quick example;  MH is fairly significantly more physically demanding than Aurora life.
> 
> Age;  is a better metric “fitness and health”?
> 
> ...



The metric of age is really for initial entry.  Personally, if you're 50 years old and you come in to a recruiting centre and tell me you want to be in the Infantry, I would:

a.  Seriously question your judgement and life choices up until this point;

b.  Take a hard look at your file and what you had to offer; and

c.  Unless you have a Jason Bourne aka  @KevinB  CV, you're getting shown the door.

As for your proposal, I think one of the issues I have is that the Military doesn't actually look at skills people have and objectively assess them against performance. 

I can't think of a time in my career where performance at my actual core combat functions actually mattered. The PER system certainly isn't reflective of anything we do. 

The scores people get certainly aren't reflective of anything we actually do on the job.  Heck deploying actually hurts you in some cases come PER time. 

People have many soft and hard skills that the Military loses because it has a career model that's stuck in the 1950s.



KevinB said:


> I'd argue at lot of those trades provide a pool for occupational transfers.
> 
> Assaulter Bloggins may not be able to kick door, turn left as well as they did 10 years ago - but the experience they have can (and should) be retained - have them work GeoSpacial with UAV ISR teams to give "a guy on the ground perspective".  There are also some good SOF roles that are not as physically demanding.
> 
> If you let folks go at 15 years - there is a lot of institutional knowledge than would be lost.


The issue @KevinB  is that the Military doesn't actually care about institutional knowledge.  

When you OT in the CAF, you're no longer able to do anything in your old occupation, all your prior qualifications are set to inactive and it may as well be as if you never did it in the first place.  The institution, including your co-workers also don't care about your past service, especially with the CAF being such a tribal organization.  

You and I have a very similar Worldview and I see things like you alluded to above.  I look at skills people have and how I can leverage them to achieve an effect.  The CAF doesn't see it that way though and it doesn't care about leveraging past experiences.  

The funny thing is I could pick up a rifle and a radio right now and go to Latvia or step on to a Ship and head to the Mediterranean and do a fairly decent job at either task that was assigned to me.  That's because I've acquired the skills to do so and am medically and physically fit.  

The CAF doesn't care about those things though, we are as @daftandbarmy  says, pieces of ammunition for them, they don't even bother to see if some us are tracer rounds LOL.



KevinB said:


> In 2016 at 46 yrs of age, I was the second oldest competitor ever in the USASOC Sniper Comp (Angry Bob S - the former Unit CSM is the only older competitor).  My partner and I beat several teams of younger folks - and unlike 2 SEAL Teams, and one other team, we competed the Rifle Stress Course with the exterior ladder climb (ladder starts 12' off the ground).
> The CAG Team of Angry Bob and Sean W won the comp that year - and where the oldest team of the field.
> 
> I'd argue it isn't age - but physical and mental fitness that should be a limit.


I'd argue your prior experience and years of mastering your craft at an elite level gave you that ability.  

If I am a recruiter and I get 46 year old @KevinB  Showing up at my door with your CV or I get 46 year old with no prior Military experience, what do I do?

I know it takes "10,000 hours" to master a skill.  Obviously 46 year old KevinB has already mastered said skill and is a proven commodity so I definitely give him a shot.

The other 46 year old though?  Sorry Pal, you shoulda joined 20 years ago and I'm not willing to take a risk on you.

If we started applying some actual business logic to our decision-making, things would work a lot better 😄


----------



## Lumber (30 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I agree with that sentiment, as a counter-point to that though, I would say there has to be a purpose to the sailing and that purpose has to be grounded in some sort operational reason.


I keep hearing this a lot, but I'm not sure what everyone is referring to. I would objectively say that all of our sailing has had a purpose with an operational focus. Trials, readiness training, and deployment. 

You might be referring to other sailing events such as support to SOF exercises, support to other IT courses, family day sails, day sails for JCSP, participation in exercises for ships that aren't deploying, sailing for maritime evaluations or equipment sea acceptance trials (e.g. New CMS versions). None of these have a direct "Named Operation" nexus, but they all either support FG, or STRAT objectives. 

The problem isn't that we're sailing for unnecessary sails, the problem is:
1. We are overcommited; 
2. We are adding new sailings last minute; and
3. Not communicating purpose well.


----------



## KevinB (30 Mar 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The scores people get certainly aren't reflective of anything we actually do on the job.  Heck deploying actually hurts you in some cases come PER time.
> 
> People have many soft and hard skills that the Military loses because it has a career model that's stuck in the 1950s.


But did you play for the hockey team -- we all know that is massively important to be a master of ones trade in the CAF (or was)...


Humphrey Bogart said:


> You and I have a very similar Worldview and I see things like you alluded to above.  I look at skills people have and how I can leverage them to achieve an effect.  The CAF doesn't see it that way though and it doesn't care about leveraging past experiences.
> 
> The funny thing is I could pick up a rifle and a radio right now and go to Latvia or step on to a Ship and head to the Mediterranean and do a fairly decent job at either task that was assigned to me.  That's because I've acquired the skills to do so and am medically and physically fit.
> 
> The CAF doesn't care about those things though, we are as @daftandbarmy  says, pieces of ammunition for them, they don't even bother to see if some us are tracer rounds LOL.


That I will never get -- maybe you and I should have been career manglers - 


Humphrey Bogart said:


> If we started applying some actual business logic to our decision-making, things would work a lot better 😄


The CAF (and admittedly many Militaries) assign business logic where impractical, and don't do it where practical - it's a sad state.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Mar 2022)

On the Navy side, part of the issue is they only poach people from the coasts for sailing before they even look to other areas. Once you are on the ship really doesn't matter where your home address is. If we actually used the ops tempo monitoring correctly, it would spread the load better around the trade/rank, and when you start poaching PO1s etc from Ottawa to go to sea it really brings it home that we are way over committed for the available crews.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> On the Navy side, part of the issue is they only poach people from the coasts for sailing before they even look to other areas. Once you are on the ship really doesn't matter where your home address is. If we actually used the ops tempo monitoring correctly, it would spread the load better around the trade/rank, and when you start poaching PO1s etc from Ottawa to go to sea it really brings it home that we are way over committed for the available crews.



I raised this point years ago.  During the height of Afghanistan a percentage of positions per rotation were supposed to be reserves and augmentees. 

Why are we not doing the same in the RCN ?  Need a MS cook ?  Grab one from Edmonton, bring them in 6 months early for training and deploy them.  

You have a good point.  Start CFTPOing in those holding down HMC desks across the country.


----------



## dimsum (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I raised this point years ago. During the height of Afghanistan a percentage of positions per rotation were supposed to be reserves
> and augmentees.
> 
> Why are we not doing the same in the RCN ?


Rabid disdain for SHADs?   

On a more serious note, how many Class A reservists with (presumably) day jobs can just leave for 9+ months?


----------



## MJP (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I raised this point years ago.  During the height of Afghanistan a percentage of positions per rotation were supposed to be reserves
> and augmentees.
> 
> Why are we not doing the same in the RCN ?  Need a MS cook ?  Grab one from Edmonton, bring them in 6 months early for training and deploy them.
> ...


That only works for purely purple bases which there are not many of like (Borden and?).  

An Edmonton cook is already part of the FG considerations for the CA and a Winnipeg cook for the RCAF as an example, so the pool for any environment to pull from is limited generally to teh bases they control.  Pulling from other environments happens but that is deliberate and done through L1 coordinators/staffs. The other aspect I will point out is for the CA many of the cooks are seconded to the base but usually belong to a field unit. There are base kitchen staff but it is it usually the bare min needed to run the kitchen.

I don't point this stuff out pick apart the idea as there is merit and have seen it dome many times in the CA. Nor do I want to fixate on cooks, it was more a continuation of your example.  Rather my point is there is may be other considerations why some pers are not filling posns and if it was to happen there are already established ways of making it happen. 




Halifax Tar said:


> I raised this point years ago.  During the height of Afghanistan a percentage of positions per rotation were supposed to be *reserves and augmentees*.
> 
> Why are we not doing the same in the RCN ?



Caught it after I wrote most of my above post so if you are referring to grabbing Naval Res pers then absolutely it should be part of FG for the RCN but not knowing the RCN or their Res model well not sure how viable it is. Seems like a win


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

MJP said:


> That only works for purely purple bases which there are not many of like (Borden and?).
> 
> An Edmonton cook is already part of the FG considerations for the CA and a Winnipeg cook for the RCAF as an example, so the pool for any environment to pull from is limited generally to teh bases they control.  Pulling from other environments happens but that is deliberate and done through L1 coordinators/staffs. The other aspect I will point out is for the CA many of the cooks are seconded to the base but usually belong to a field unit. There are base kitchen staff but it is it usually the bare min needed to run the kitchen.
> 
> ...



Neagtron home boy.  For years we sent out must fill CFTPOs for Afg rotos pan CAF.  I'm sure there was L1 blessings.  Some hard purple trade positions, some ATR type, some specific skill sets.  Twice I was brought in over a year before deploying to "work up".    

Why we (The RCN) aren't doing the same is beyond me.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Neagtron home boy.  For years we sent out must fill CFTPOs for Afg rotos pan CAF.  I'm sure there was L1 blessings.  Some hard purple trade positions, some ATR type, some specific skill sets.  Twice I was brought in over a year before deploying to "work up".
> 
> Why we (The RCN) aren't doing the same is beyond me.


I remember trying to push CFTPOs while we were deployed in the Med to the West coast or NCR and it never left Halifax. Was really frustrating as we needed a few Cert 3s and there were people willing to come out for a 6-8 week stint to spell people off for their trips back home (can't remember the name of the mid deployment leave) but they weren't able to even officially put their hat in the ring. 

Meanwhile people were getting pulled off instructor positions in Halifax and other direct support positions, which theoretically were higher priority ones on the VCDS side to be filled. Makes no sense to me, but I guess I just don't understand the 'broader strategic requirements' that means someone working on a 10-20 year project can't be spared for a short period.

A lot of the cubicle work is pretty important long term, but very few people are genuinely critical cogs in the bureaucratic machine that justifies sailing in an operational theatre under remar, directly impacting what the ships can do.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'm guessing this would break the (archaic) system, but unless you're in specific staff spots that require that specialized knowledge (like DAR/DLR/DNR for a specific project) I'd argue that most, if not all, staff jobs should be ATR with a rank band of 2 ranks (e.g. Capt/Major).
> 
> I'm not sure why you need to be a specific trade to be an MCC at a certain CFRC.  I guess it's to balance it out so it's not all filled by ACSOs or something (it's not) but CFRG would be a good test case for the "ATR, rank only" requirement.



Do we not operate that way now to an extent unofficially/ad hoc?  Formalize it with policy, do a trial period (5 years?) and assess benefits and drawbacks?


----------



## MJP (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Neagtron home boy.  For years we sent out must fill CFTPOs for Afg rotos pan CAF.  I'm sure there was L1 blessings.  Some hard purple trade positions, some ATR type, some specific skill sets.  Twice I was brought in over a year before deploying to "work up".
> 
> Why we (The RCN) aren't doing the same is beyond me



I am referring to the hear and now not the yesteryear but fully acknowledge and know how things worked in the Afghan Era. TBH there is little difference to then vs now except now op requirements don't have the same weight like Afghan days


I was just pointing out that there are obstacles to your line of thought but also that there is established precedence when it is a hard op requirement.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Mar 2022)

MJP said:


> I am referring to the hear and now not the yesteryear but fully acknowledge and know how things worked in the Afghan Era. TBH *there is little difference to then vs now except now op requirements *don't have the same weight like Afghan days
> 
> 
> I was just pointing out that there are obstacles to your line of thought but also that there is established precedence when it is a hard op requirement.



I think Mr. Putin might have changed the rules regarding what might be considered an 'operational environment' for NATO countries


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## Halifax Tar (30 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I think Mr. Putin might have changed the rules regarding what might be considered an 'operational environment' for NATO countries



I just took it as a typical Army centric attitude.  

Which is pretty much the CAF really.  You know JArmy = Joint and all that.


----------



## MJP (30 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I think Mr. Putin might have changed the rules regarding what might be considered an 'operational environment' for NATO countries


Sure and if that is the case then FG units in support of that should get the people they need regardless of where they come from just like how the Afghan msn was pri 1


Halifax Tar said:


> I just took it as a typical Army centric attitude.
> 
> Which is pretty much the CAF really.  You know JArmy = Joint and all that.


It wasn't but you can take it however you want. I was merely pointing out why someone sitting in a CA or RCAF base may not be part of the consideration of your CFTPO idea.  That and pointing out doing things that way already exists if the RCN wanted to get folks.


----------



## KevinB (30 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I just took it as a typical Army centric attitude.
> 
> Which is pretty much the CAF really.  You know JArmy = Joint and all that.


Typical Canadian Element attitude 

Joint spelled by C Army: JARMY
Joint spelled by RCN: NAVY
Joint spelled by RCAF: FIGHTER PLANE


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## Brad Sallows (30 Mar 2022)

I thought RCAF joint was hotel on the beach with a view of the airport.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

Hardly;  why would we want a view of the airport??


----------



## Quirky (30 Mar 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Hardly;  why would we want a view of the airport??


Early start on the pre-flight.


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## dimsum (30 Mar 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Hardly;  why would we want a view of the airport??


To see the aircraft still broken and continue with drinks at the hotel bar, of course.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2022)

Quirky said:


> Early start on the pre-flight.


----------



## SupersonicMax (30 Mar 2022)

Quirky said:


> Early start on the pre-flight.


My pre-flight on the road:


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> I'd argue at lot of those trades provide a pool for occupational transfers.
> 
> Assaulter Bloggins may not be able to kick door, turn left as well as they did 10 years ago - but the experience they have can (and should) be retained - have them work GeoSpacial with UAV ISR teams to give "a guy on the ground perspective".  There are also some good SOF roles that are not as physically demanding.
> 
> If you let folks go at 15 years - there is a lot of institutional knowledge than would be lost ...


I support this idea. It was in vogue about the time I joined. 

Signals, for example, had serious personnel problems in the late 1950s/early 1960s - the Corps was seriously overcommitted and even "contracting out" several Individual Training tasks, including recruit and Jr NCO training, to the combat arms was not filling enough gaps.

Signals "raided" the other arms for people. The Corps got a lot of good people - many were selected for technical training, a disproportionate number became younger than average Sr NCOs, some became officers a few even became became colonels (But we couldn't outdo Signals own Soldier Apprentice programme (the famous "green monsters" who were enrolled at age 16) and produce generals.)

I recall being told by my course officer (a Staff Sergeant) that they (the senior technical people) referred "retreads" from the other arms because we were a bit more mature and, therefore, easier to train to work on our own.


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 May 2022)

And here's another. "contribution" to the retention debate: Opinion: Religious bigotry won’t solve the Canadian military’s discrimination problem


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## Quirky (6 May 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> And here's another. "contribution" to the retention debate: Opinion: Religious bigotry won’t solve the Canadian military’s discrimination problem



Religious bigotry has zero affect on retention. We have 100 other things to solve before this is even a topic. More nonsense to distract people from the real issues like housing, equipment, pay, postings etc etc. Wokism is an easier topic to talk about, because all it takes is talk, not anything that remotely resembles action.


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> Religious bigotry has zero affect on retention. We have 100 other things to solve before this is even a topic. More nonsense to distract people from the real issues like housing, equipment, pay, postings etc etc. Wokism is an easier topic to talk about, because all it takes is talk, not anything that remotely resembles action.


I agree we have other big issues but it doesn’t absolve our institutional responsibility to address discrimination. I don’t know whether religious bigotry has an effect on retention (though I suspect it does have an effect, perhaps not as visible as housing, equipment, pay, etc), but it certainly has an impact on recruitment.  If we can’t attract a portion of the population because they don’t feel welcome, we are shortchanging ourselves from people with skills, talent, ideas, etc.  Diversity, in today’s inter-connected world, is a must if we want to thrive.


----------



## Furniture (6 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> Religious bigotry has zero affect on retention. We have 100 other things to solve before this is even a topic. More nonsense to distract people from the real issues like housing, equipment, pay, postings etc etc. Wokism is an easier topic to talk about, because all it takes is talk, not anything that remotely resembles action.


While the topics you mention are all likely far more important for recruitment and retention, talk does have an impact as well. If you get the impression from an official report that your religion is no longer considered "acceptable" by the CAF, it could be the final thing that drives you out, or away from the recruiting office. 

@Edward Campbell my occupation used to be mostly OTs, but in the late 00's we changed our requirements to G2 O2, which eliminated most OTs from entering. Since then we have struggled to recruit from off the street, and are now in the process of determining if a change to our Geo requirements might help bring the OTs back in. Most of the people who came in from other occupations did quite well in Met because they were mature, and understood how good life was in a climate controlled office talking about weather.


----------



## Quirky (6 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> I agree we have other big issues but it doesn’t absolve our institutional responsibility to address discrimination. I don’t know whether religious bigotry has an effect on retention (though I suspect it does have an effect, perhaps not as visible as housing, equipment, pay, etc), but it certainly has an impact on recruitment.  If we can’t attract a portion of the population because they don’t feel welcome, we are shortchanging ourselves from people with skills, talent, ideas, etc.  Diversity, in today’s inter-connected world, is a must if we want to thrive.



Nit picking all the little issues without looking at the bigger picture isn't going to solve anything. I think religion is all fantasy anyway so this isn't a topic I even remotely care about. How big of a population do we lose because of religious issues? I can count on one hand how many people I've worked with who are really into this "stuff". We can't attract people because the media constantly blasts the military, rightfully so in some cases, for sexual misconduct and how we don't discipline our top leaders, nor do we ever hold anyone accountable. When people do get their foot in the door, it takes over a year in most cases to process an application. Then the training system has its own issues. Young people these days aren't that stupid, they do their research on forums and places like Reddit where all the issues are brought to light. How many people have been turned away because they can read the writing on the wall?


----------



## Fabius (6 May 2022)

So because a religion may have some believes or values that are not in line with the current leftist thought the CAF an official arm of the Government of Canada should abandon its support to the first fundamental freedom listed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms… Right, that makes sense.

Our Chaplains I believe are trained not to push their specific religion on anyone in the CAF and that has been my experience to date. It seems like our individual chaplains aren’t even the problem identified, merely that some belong to the various Christian denominations, Islam, etc. that have beliefs that are now unacceptable.

If having representatives of those religions (padres) in the CAF is not supportive of our new woke agenda and we should not / shall not employ them what is the next step? Is it much of a stretch to imagine a report stating (and I use almost exact wording from the report here only inserting the word “people” vs “representatives”) the CAF cannot justify hiring people belonging to religious organizations who marginalize certain people of categorically refuse them a position of leadership?

How would that match the Charter and the fundamental things I think we are trying to do in terms of inclusivity and diversity lol. Do we hire people of Christian and Islamic faith and then tell them your religion is unacceptable and we will not offer you morale or spiritual support via a Padre or chapel/prayer room etc. That will certainly help our recruitment and retention especially of the 1st gen Canadians from the large urban areas.

I think that entire Chapter is a dumpster fire. Its not the biggest issue the CAF faces but its certainly not helpful.


----------



## Remius (6 May 2022)

Fabius said:


> So because a religion may have some believes or values that are not in line with the current leftist thought the CAF an official arm of the Government of Canada should abandon its support to the first fundamental freedom listed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms… Right, that makes sense.
> 
> Our Chaplains I believe are trained not to push their specific religion on anyone in the CAF and that has been my experience to date. It seems like our individual chaplains aren’t even the problem identified, merely that some belong to the various Christian denominations, Islam, etc. that have beliefs that are now unacceptable.
> 
> ...


I don’t disagree necessarily with your view.  And I don’t agree with this report that seems to have come to strange conclusions. 

But is there any other government organisation that has a religious component that ministers to its employees?  Playing devil’s advocate here.  And how does not having any of that infringe one one’s personal right to freedom of religion?  I don’t see how getting rid of the Chaplaincy somehow is an infringement on freedom of religion.


----------



## Fabius (6 May 2022)

Too be clear, if we just deleted the Chaplaincy completely and had nothing the same as any other department then yes I don't see how if would be an infringement on freedom of religion. My issue is with the rationale for the proposed changes and how in my mind at least such rational could be logically expanded in very dangerous directions and applied to anyone declaring a religion of X.


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> I don’t disagree necessarily with your view.  And I don’t agree with this report that seems to have come to strange conclusions.
> 
> But is there any other government organisation that has a religious component that ministers to its employees?  Playing devil’s advocate here.  And how does not having any of that infringe one one’s personal right to freedom of religion?  I don’t see how getting rid of the Chaplaincy somehow is an infringement on freedom of religion.



I've noticed that the further a military gets away from real wars, which generally features piles of teenaged bodies (if the bodies can be found that is), the more that people enhance the focus for Special Forces and other 'shooty' jobs while discrediting the importance of the Chaplain's Service.

The same goes for various 'REMF' professions such as medical, vehicle maintenance and recovery, catering etc.


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 May 2022)

Other government organizations generally don't fight in battle.

A soldier might want absolution before battle.  It's meaningless if it isn't done by someone authorized to do so.

Discovering that removing chaplains was a mistake is not one of the "lessons learned" anyone should aspire to.


----------



## quadrapiper (6 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Other government organizations generally don't fight in battle.
> 
> A soldier might want absolution before battle.  It's meaningless if it isn't done by someone authorized to do so.
> 
> Discovering that removing chaplains was a mistake is not one of the "lessons learned" anyone should aspire to.


For a purely functional take, would be interesting to see a comparison between broadly similar militaries with and without chaplains: who fulfills secular roles the CAF currently assigns to chaplains, were they founded with a chaplain branch then removed it, or did they never have one, what sort of society are they drawing from, and have they had any issues readily attributable to not having chaplains.

Also: this would be one capability that might best be governed by a pan-CAF survey, since all the arguments in favour are about filling nonquantifiable, personal/internal needs.

Also: looking at cadets as indicative of broader societal shifts, out of ~700 cadets and CAF pers at the CTC I was at in 2019, there weren't terrible many (maybe 5-10?) showing up for the Sunday morning van to local churches. Even adding in a few Sikhs, assume some practitioners of less visible faiths, and allow for those who weighed sleeping in and attendance and voted for sleep, and the impression is of waning interest in the practice of religion. There was also a youth mental health and counselling cell established IIRC 2017, which seemed to draw much more traffic than the chaplain, who'd previously handled the bulk of that work. Anecdotal, but would be interesting to look at the 16-25 population in a more scientific way as far as relevance of chaplains to their needs and preexisting immediate actions.


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## OldSolduer (6 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Other government organizations generally don't fight in battle.
> 
> A soldier might want absolution before battle.  It's meaningless if it isn't done by someone authorized to do so.
> 
> Discovering that removing chaplains was a mistake is not one of the "lessons learned" anyone should aspire to.


Replace “chaplains” with “commissars” to encourage correct political thought.


----------



## mariomike (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> But is there any other government organisation that has a religious component that ministers to its employees?



My department has had its own official uniformed chaplain for at least the last fifty years.  He is also active in connecting with our retired members, and always speaks at our luncheons. And yes, he leads us in prayer.
He provides a sense of hope to our members during difficualt times.


----------



## Halifax Tar (6 May 2022)

I think the military chaplaincy should transform into a social/mental health worker service under the umbrella of the medical service. 

But I am also a person who has no interest in formed religion.


----------



## Remius (6 May 2022)

mariomike said:


> My department has had its own official uniformed chaplain for at least the last fifty years.  He is also active in connecting with our retired members, and always speaks at our luncheons. And yes, he leads us in prayer.
> He provides a sense of hope to our members during difficualt times.


Is this a full time tax paid for Chaplain?  Or one that has an an agreement with that org to minister to those who need or want it?


----------



## Ostrozac (6 May 2022)

quadrapiper said:


> For a purely functional take, would be interesting to see a comparison between broadly similar militaries with and without chaplains:


Is there a military similar to Canada’s without Chaplains? Even the French, who more or less invented the modern secular state, still have Chaplains in uniform. There are a few nominally communist officially atheist states that would lack Chaplains — presumably China, North Korea, Cuba and Vietnam do without. But I can’t think of any others.

So if we were to go down that road and abandon the Chaplaincy, it would be largely unknown territory. Possibly we’d simply be ahead of the times. Possibly we’d be breaking an important part of our military.


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## mariomike (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Is this a full time tax paid for Chaplain?  Or one that has an an agreement with that org to minister to those who need or want it?



He wears the uniform, and was there for our family when my father passed. It meant a lot to me.

5.5 Toronto Paramedic Services Chaplain

118. The TPS has two chaplains that provide both ceremonial services, such as speaking at recruits' graduation, and individual support to staff and alumni. The chaplains are paid an honorarium for ceremonial work and often provide other services on a volunteer basis.

119. The position of a chaplain has been described as a "bridge" between the work of the staff psychologist and the Peer Resource Team. One of the chaplains has experience working with peer crisis teams and training in critical incident stress programs. A member of the Peer Resource Team who is also a chaplain will begin providing his services in that capacity as part of the Peer Resource Team. My investigators were also told that contact information for chaplaincy services will be listed on a new poster advertising psychological supports for members.


			https://www.ombudsmantoronto.ca/OmbudsmanToronto/media/Documents/Investigative%20Report/Ombudsman-Report-TPS-November-2015.pdf?ext=.pdf


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## Furniture (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think the military chaplaincy should transform into a social/mental health worker service under the umbrella of the medical service.
> 
> But I am also a person who has no interest in formed religion.


I also think there should be uniformed social workers, but I would prefer to see them working alongside Chaplains. As much as you or I, may not have spiritual beliefs, there are others that do, and they deserve support. 

If communion/smudging/prayers before battle helps some of the troops mentally prepare, the CAF should support it with chaplains as best it can.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think the military chaplaincy should transform into a social/mental health worker service under the umbrella of the medical service.
> 
> But I am also a person who has no interest in formed religion.


I have no interest in organized religion either - however there are a number of service people who are members of religions. 

The chaplains - or at least the ones I worked with - took care of social and mental health issues as part of a team. The chaplains are the "I know a person" types.

The right one is worth their weight in gold.


----------



## Halifax Tar (6 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> I also think there should be uniformed social workers, but I would prefer to see them working alongside Chaplains. As much as you or I, may not have spiritual beliefs, there are others that do, and they deserve support.
> 
> If communion/smudging/prayers before battle helps some of the troops mentally prepare, the CAF should support it with chaplains as best it can.





OldSolduer said:


> I have no interest in organized religion either - however there are a number of service people who are members of religions.
> 
> The chaplains - or at least the ones I worked with - took care of social and mental health issues as part of a team. The chaplains are the "I know a person" types.
> 
> The right one is worth their weight in gold.




You may have missed my admitted bias in the last line.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You may have missed my admitted bias in the last line.


In did not and I respect that view. I am not a religious guy either.....I will ask Odin's favor one day and Aphrodite's the next.....


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 May 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> And here's another. "contribution" to the retention debate: Opinion: Religious bigotry won’t solve the Canadian military’s discrimination problem



So if the article is accurate and the CAF would not allow RC faith leaders in the Padre ranks because of their religious beliefs, how could Catholics be allowed to serve?

Religion is specifically mentioned as something the government is not allowed to discriminate against.  This article is just ludicrous.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 May 2022)

I don't really see or hear of church services like I used to but I constantly see padres engaged with CAF members in a pseudo social worker role.

Civilian social workers have their place but padres are familiar (more or less) with the unique military culture and environment.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> I also think there should be uniformed social workers, but I would prefer to see them working alongside Chaplains. As much as you or I, may not have spiritual beliefs, there are others that do, and they deserve support.
> 
> If communion/smudging/prayers before battle helps some of the troops mentally prepare, the CAF should support it with chaplains as best it can.



Chaplains fill many important roles; the are also advisors to COs, play an important part in the notification of NOK, and follow on steps.  

As for banning some religious leaders and not others.  Seriously GoC and CAF leaders. Go read the prohibited discrimination laws of Canada.  

Where will this shit end with this whacked out Lib govt?


----------



## Fabius (6 May 2022)

Well MND says Chaplains are staying, some sanity at least and a good idea I think,  as much as some of them frustrate me on occasion. 
Sets the stage as well for the next report to say the CAF ignored recommendations so wins all around. 

Really calls into question the competence of the drafters of the report though in my opinion.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> As for banning some religious leaders and not others.  Seriously GoC and CAF leaders. Go read the prohibited discrimination laws of Canada.


Who did they want to ban and who did they want to keep?


----------



## Furniture (6 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Who did they want to ban and who did they want to keep?


The report authors were smart enough to not write that... 

The report read to me like a brainstorming session typed up as a document.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Chaplains fill many important roles; the are also advisors to COs, play an important part in the notification of NOK, and follow on steps.
> 
> As for banning some religious leaders and not others.  Seriously GoC and CAF leaders. Go read the prohibited discrimination laws of Canada.
> 
> Where will this shit end with this whacked out Lib govt?


Its not just the GoC - there is a segment of society that wants to see the end of the CAF. This is the means to an end.

When will it end? When we start writing our elected officials telling them to tell the authors of this report "you have one hour to clean your desk out and we are escorting you from the property"

Edmund Burke said it best "In order for evil to succeed all that is required is for good people to do nothing" or words to that effect.


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> I agree we have other big issues but it doesn’t absolve our institutional responsibility to address discrimination. I don’t know whether religious bigotry has an effect on retention (though I suspect it does have an effect, perhaps not as visible as housing, equipment, pay, etc), but it certainly has an impact on recruitment.  If we can’t attract a portion of the population because they don’t feel welcome, we are shortchanging ourselves from people with skills, talent, ideas, etc.  Diversity, in today’s inter-connected world, is a must if we want to thrive.


So to collate, the CAF has been accused/indicted on this platform and in public for the following:

Toxic Leaders
Sexual  Assault
Sexual Misconduct
Sexual Harassment
Discrimination
Non-inclusion
Misogyny
Nepotism
Multiple LGBTQ+ transgressions
Disinformation
Shoddy procurement processes
Shoddy financial practices
Shoddy pay
Shoddy housing
Shoddy equipment
Shoddy support to troops
Religious bigotry
Not being diverse
Non-adherence to Geneva conventions
Non-adherence to various Acts (ATI for example)
Not being adequately equipped/trained
Non support to NATO
Non support to Ops
Non support to the Res F
Not being forward thinking
Not being "now" thinking
Miscellanea etc etc

So pick a topic from the above list, which is nowhere close to exhaustive, and try to make changes under the existing environment/spotlights/constraints. Couple that with the leaderships supposed "real job" which is supposed to provide leadership and/or sp to CAF operations. Not easy, when every day your supposed priority changes.

Or, just leave the CAF. Or bitch. Or just get on with the job. Pick one.


----------



## btrudy (6 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I don't really see or hear of church services like I used to but I constantly see padres engaged with CAF members in a pseudo social worker role.
> 
> Civilian social workers have their place but padres are familiar (more or less) with the unique military culture and environment.


We do have Social Work Officers.. Hiring more of those and using them to fill the roles performed by the Chaplains would be totally doable. 

It indeed might be more useful for a lot of members who might be hesitant to approach the chaplains due to a distaste or distrust of organized religion. 



OldSolduer said:


> Its not just the GoC - there is a segment of society that wants to see the end of the CAF. This is the means to an end.
> 
> When will it end? When we start writing our elected officials telling them to tell the authors of this report "you have one hour to clean your desk out and we are escorting you from the property"
> 
> Edmund Burke said it best "In order for evil to succeed all that is required is for good people to do nothing" or words to that effect.



Seriously? The people who were on the commission that wrote the report were all veterans: a former Maj, Capt, MGen and Sgt. 

You're getting into insane-conspiracy theory territory to be accusing those people of being part of the segment of society that wants to see the end of the CAF. 

Maybe, just maybe, they were all sick and tired of constantly having to deal with racism while in the CAF and wanted to fix a massive problem. .


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> We do have Social Work Officers.. Hiring more of those and using them to fill the roles performed by the Chaplains would be totally doable.
> 
> It indeed might be more useful for a lot of members who might be hesitant to approach the chaplains due to a distaste or distrust of organized religion.
> 
> ...


It wasn't racism that was decried, rather it was religious bigotry that they described as the problem.


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 May 2022)

Chaplains in peace and in war are two different things.  The requirements of peace can't be used to degrade functions necessary in war.

People who seem indifferent about religion might behave differently if they believe, for example, that they stand a 10% chance of being killed in the next week.


----------



## btrudy (6 May 2022)

Weinie said:


> It wasn't racism that was decried, rather it was religious bigotry that they described as the problem.


Let's not pretend like various forms of bigotry don't go hand in hand.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> We do have Social Work Officers.. Hiring more of those and using them to fill the roles performed by the Chaplains would be totally doable.


Forgot about them. They don't seem very common. Could we put one in every major unit or one in a couple units smaller units? 
I can call my unit chaplain tomorrow and get his help dealing with a member in crisis. I know of another member who's on month 3 waiting for a mental health intake with warrior support. 

Do social worker officers deploy to the field and sleep in  tents? 



> It indeed might be more useful for a lot of members who might be hesitant to approach the chaplains due to a distaste or distrust of organized religion.


That's true. I wouldn't say officers in general have an incredible amount of trust going for them right now either but the aversion to religion is a thing for sure.


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Let's not pretend like various forms of bigotry don't go hand in hand.


And let's not pretend that some groups will associate bigotry and racism with xxxism....you can't suck and blow at the same time.


----------



## btrudy (6 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Forgot about them. They don't seem very common. Could we put one in every major unit or one in a couple units smaller units?
> I can call my unit chaplain tomorrow and get his help dealing with a member in crisis. I know of another member who's on month 3 waiting for a mental health intake with warrior support.


Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.



Jarnhamar said:


> Do social worker officers deploy to the field and sleep in  tents?


As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit. 

Face it, the vast majority of the stuff that Chaplains currently do, that everyone keep insisting that they're vital to have, is actually social work. We might as well instead expand and use the group of officers who are actually trained and educated in that role.


----------



## Furniture (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.
> 
> 
> As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit.
> ...


You're assuming that religious organizations don't mandate counselling courses for their ordained members, and ordination in whichever religion a chaplain represents is a requirement to become a chaplain. 

We all have biases, and lived experiences. I have never seen a chaplain laugh in the face of a member asking for help, but I had a social worker laugh in my face when I asked for help. You'll hopefully forgive me if I don't think social workers alone are a cure for the ills the CAF is facing.


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.
> 
> 
> As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit.
> ...


So, an atheistic or agnostic CAF going forward? Should we just ignore the report on religiosity that you previously cited as to how we progress? What is the breakdown? How many SWs vs Chaplains of all faiths will suffice to succor the CAF?


----------



## btrudy (6 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> You're assuming that religious organizations don't mandate counselling courses for their ordained members, and ordination in whichever religion a chaplain represents is a requirement to become a chaplain.
> 
> We all have biases, and lived experiences. I have never seen a chaplain laugh in the face of a member asking for help, but I had a social worker laugh in my face when I asked for help. You'll hopefully forgive me if I don't think social workers alone are a cure for the ills the CAF is facing.


I'm assuming that those mandated counselling courses aren't a sufficient replacement for a Master's degree in Social Work. Especially since _I don't trust religious organizations to be setting curriculum for such counselling sessions. _Is an organization whose official theological stance is "being gay is a sin" going to provide adequate training to allow Chaplains to properly counsel LGBTQ service members?

I don't buy it.

And if we're going to be trading in anecdotes, I've never seen a social worker steal from a mess and say nothing when junior members get blamed for their theft (until caught red-handed). I have seen that happen with a Padre.

Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad.



Weinie said:


> So, an atheistic or agnostic CAF going forward?



Well, yeah. The CAF is not and should not be a religious organization.



Weinie said:


> Should we just ignore the report on religiosity that you previously cited as to how we progress? What is the breakdown?



I'm not sure which report on religiosity you're referring to; I've only had three comments on this thread, and the only thing I "referenced" is the fact that the authors of the report this thread is about are all veterans, as an attempt to discredit the frankly ridiculous notion that they're part of some grand conspiracy to destroy the CAF.



Weinie said:


> How many SWs vs Chaplains of all faiths will suffice to succor the CAF?



Enough Chaplains to provide the actual religious services we might want them to provide, enough social workers to take over that aspect of their jobs.


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> I'm assuming that those mandated counselling courses aren't a sufficient replacement for a Master's degree in Social Work. Especially since _I don't trust religious organizations to be setting curriculum for such counselling sessions. _Is an organization whose official theological stance is "being gay is a sin" going to provide adequate training to allow Chaplains to properly counsel LGBTQ service members?
> 
> I don't buy it.
> 
> ...


I assumed that you were referring to the below report, which was the impetus for the latest discussion.

Part III – Areas of opportunity and recommendations - Canada.ca

You cited the report and implied that a commentator was ignoring racism in his haste to condemn the report.


----------



## KevinB (6 May 2022)

There are no atheists in a foxhole…



btrudy said:


> I'm assuming that those mandated counselling courses aren't a sufficient replacement for a Master's degree in Social Work.


You know that part of their theology degree has counseling and support in it. 
   Most social workers IMHO are useless oxygen thieves who don’t understand the Military and in my experiences (albeit dated) in the CAF just there to check a box. 



btrudy said:


> Especially since _I don't trust religious organizations to be setting curriculum for such counselling sessions. _Is an organization whose official theological stance is "being gay is a sin" going to provide adequate training to allow Chaplains to properly counsel LGBTQ service members?


You missed the fact the CAF had an openly gay Chaplain General. 
   Which to me was offensive as fuck - but hey whatever floats your boat. 



btrudy said:


> I don't buy it.
> 
> And if we're going to be trading in anecdotes, I've never seen a social worker steal from a mess and say nothing when junior members get blamed for their theft (until caught red-handed). I have seen that happen with a Padre.


I’m guessing Militia unit.  



btrudy said:


> Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yeah. The CAF is not and should not be a religious organization.


Ever been in combat? 



btrudy said:


> I'm not sure which report on religiosity you're referring to; I've only had three comments on this thread, and the only thing I "referenced" is the fact that the authors of the report this thread is about are all veterans, as an attempt to discredit the frankly ridiculous notion that they're part of some grand conspiracy to destroy the CAF.
> 
> 
> 
> Enough Chaplains to provide the actual religious services we might want them to provide, enough social workers to take over that aspect of their jobs.


You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer - and by the rest of your comments you didn’t even read the article you are claiming to cite.


----------



## btrudy (6 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> There are no atheists in a foxhole…


This is, of course, a blatant lie.


KevinB said:


> You know that part of their theology degree has counseling and support in it.



Sure, counseling and support which is in accordance with said religion's dogma, which is in many cases renders it incompatible for use in the CAF.



KevinB said:


> Most social workers IMHO are useless oxygen thieves who don’t understand the Military and in my experiences (albeit dated) in the CAF just there to check a box.
> 
> 
> You missed the fact the CAF had an openly gay Chaplain General.
> Which to me was offensive as fuck - but hey whatever floats your boat.



I mean, ok? That doesn't mean that we still don't have chaplains representing religious organizations which view homosexuality as a sin.



KevinB said:


> I’m guessing Militia unit.


No.


KevinB said:


> Ever been in combat?


No, not that I really see how that's relevant at all.


KevinB said:


> You are clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer - and by the rest of your comments you didn’t even read the article you are claiming to cite.



... No, I didn't read the entire report. Because the only part that I was trying to cite was the fact that the members who wrote the report were veterans, to counter the very specific and frankly asinine claim made by someone that the folks responsible for the report were part of "a segment of society that wants to see the end of the CAF."

I am not basing my criticisms of our continued usage of the Chaplaincy on said report.

But, of course, given your proclivity to devolve to personal insults, I hardly expect this conversation to be all that productive.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.



Given our manning shortages I'm disinclined to think just hiring more is a viable solution. 

We can't even get enough infantry and they're about as simple to train as pressing I on a keyboard. 

Padres are a niche position IMO. I can't see many of them rolling over into another trade, even social worker. I suspect we're short social workers as well. 



> Face it, the vast majority of the stuff that Chaplains currently do, that everyone keep insisting that they're vital to have, is actually social work.



I've never been visited on the range by a social worker, chatted to one while digging a trench in the rain, and so on with a social worker. 

There's a shared sense of comradery with chaplains IMO.


----------



## btrudy (6 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I've never been visited on the range by a social worker, chatted to one while digging a trench in the rain, and so on with a social worker.
> 
> There's a shared sense of comradery with chaplains IMO.



That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc. 

The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.
> 
> The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.



I doubt a Social Worker could be compelled to do anything like this.

OTOH, a good Chaplain couldn't be stopped....


----------



## Furniture (6 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I doubt a Social Worker could be compelled to do anything like this.
> 
> OTOH, a good Chaplain couldn't be stopped....


And a less dramatic, but no less heroic chaplain...

John Weir Foote - Wikipedia


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.
> 
> The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.


first of all Kevin's knowledge of foxholes and what goes in them is quite deep.

2nd you can have "veterans" or service members who will destroy the organisation in an attempt to make themselves feel better.

I know police that work with social workers, none of them will go anywhere dangerous without a police escort, it's not in their training or outlook. Nor will they share anything with the service members. I have seen first had how bad social workers can make a situation much worse.

I have seen a black padre take apart a useless sod who happened to be a visible minority that used the race card anytime someone criticized him. I also seen them out and about, getting wet, cold and talking to people. They are there because of their faith, it's what will give them strength when things get really crappy. A Social Worker will not be there when causalities are coming in from a unit hit by artillery.


----------



## lenaitch (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Hence the fact I included "hire more of those" in my comment.
> 
> 
> As members of the military, they can be used in that capacity should we see fit.
> ...


Except the flexibility doesn't go both ways.  A chaplain can provide counselling based on their theological and CAF training, but a counsellor cannot perform some religious acts that, while some may wish to dismiss, may well be very important to the recipient at a particular time and place.

The extreme application of a military's mandate is otherwise counter to and morally repugnant to civil humanity; the place where its members come from, and I would suggest that military needs to provide an avenue where members can personally reconcile that conflict if need be.


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.
> 
> The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.


OK. I will accept that argument, with caveats. I have never, in almost 40 years of service, asked for a Padre to intercede on my behalf, so have no personal hill to die on. But I have seen, on numerous occasions, where a Padre presented a COA that facilitated a successful resolution to a concern within my units. I have never seen a Social Worker achieve that type of effect.

If religious affiliation/orthodoxy allows them to affect this, should we care? I go back to your earlier comment about racism in this thread, which was my original question. Further, should we judge the relativity of a religion to provide care/succor to CAF members? How many rabbit holes would you like to explore? Should  I link to the well documented shortcomings/failures of Social Workers?


----------



## btrudy (6 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Except the flexibility doesn't go both ways.  A chaplain can provide counselling based on their theological and CAF training, but a counsellor cannot perform some religious acts that, while some may wish to dismiss, may well be very important to the recipient at a particular time and place.


There is certainly this aspect. Which is why I'm not proposing that they be eliminated entirely. 



lenaitch said:


> The extreme application of a military's mandate is otherwise counter to and morally repugnant to civil humanity; the place where its members come from, and I would suggest that military needs to provide an avenue where members can personally reconcile that conflict if need be.



Sure, but that's counselling. Which is well within the social worker's wheelhouse. There are some members for which a religious-based form of counselling would be more effective, but as society becomes less and less religious over time, the degree to which we'd need Padres in that role is decreasing. 



Weinie said:


> OK. I will accept that argument, with caveats. I have never, in almost 40 years of service, asked for a Padre to intercede on my behalf, so have no personal hill to die on. But I have seen, on numerous occasions, where a Padre presented a COA that facilitated a successful resolution to a concern within my units. I have never seen a Social Worker achieve that type of effect.
> 
> If religious affiliation/orthodoxy allows them to affect this, should we care? I go back to your earlier comment about racism in this thread, which was my original question. Further, should we judge the relativity of a religion to provide care/succor to CAF members? How many rabbit holes would you like to explore? Should  I link to the well documented shortcomings/failures of Social Workers?


The problem is that, due to the impact of the religious doctrine, the ability to effect change can and will vary in ways that disadvantage already disadvantaged demographics in the CAF.

If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.

I would, however, trust a social worker to.

The only reason that you haven't seen social workers achieve "that type of effect" is simply because that's not how we've been using social workers.. Because we have Padres already filling that role.


----------



## KevinB (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> This is, of course, a blatant lie.


Yet you’ve never been in combat… 
    You must be omniscient then. 
   Welcome to my ignore list.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.
> 
> The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do. If we have social workers doing that stuff instead, then the comradery will build itself for the same reason it's worked with the chaplains.



Since I have little to do with social workers or clergy these days, my experience with both professions, in either military or civilian flavour, is dated.  However, while there may be overlap in some functions, there is a reason that they are two separate occupations (_actually, if one was to count the various denominations of clergy or employment focus of social workers as separate occupations it may number in the dozens or even hundreds_).

As one raised Irish Catholic (Newfoundland variant), I naturally consider myself agnostic and have little regard for organized religion and its practitioners, but from experience (operational and otherwise) I've found chaplains to provide a useful service that couldn't be replicated by social workers even if they were directed to "walk around and be comradely".  The education and training and most importantly for chaplains (the good ones anyway) their "vocation" prepares each profession differently.

A little light reading about military social work and chaplaincy


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 May 2022)

I can't see any of the fire and brimstone types joining to start with, but if they did, nothing stopping them from getting punted if they did violate CAF ethics (or not recruited in the first place), but that really has to be based on the individual. This report is mostly shit, and that's a pretty good example of how poorly thought out a lot of it is, to propose a generalized religious discrimination in an advisory report on anti-discrimination. Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.

Chaplains have a lot of credibility and trust that no other entry point into the mental health services does, and to suggest that really exemplifies how out of touch this report is with reality. 10 out of 10 times I'd start by talking to a Chaplain (regardless of whatever their affiliation was) if I was looking for any advice/support etc, which is really easy to do when they deploy alongside you and are taking the same kind of risks you are. Uniformed social workers just don't do any of this, so they may as well not exist as a trade.


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> The problem is that, due to the impact of the religious doctrine, the ability to effect change can and will vary in ways that disadvantage already disadvantaged demographics in the CAF.
> 
> *If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.*
> 
> ...


That is a great point ,and one that I had not given due consideration. Evolving ideals vs established ideals. 

So, as an observation, it appears that we will never achieve the desired/required need to be all encompassing in our CAF community, because we will always be presented with conflicting ideals. Good luck to future CAF leaders


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I can't see any of the fire and brimstone types joining to start with, but if they did, nothing stopping them from getting punted if they did violate CAF ethics (or not recruited in the first place), but that really has to be based on the individual. This report is mostly shit, and that's a pretty good example of how poorly thought out a lot of it is, to propose a generalized religious discrimination in an advisory report on anti-discrimination. Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.
> 
> Chaplains have a lot of credibility and trust that no other entry point into the mental health services does, and to suggest that really exemplifies how out of touch this report is with reality. 10 out of 10 times I'd start by talking to a Chaplain (regardless of whatever their affiliation was) if I was looking for any advice/support etc, which is really easy to do when they deploy alongside you and are taking the same kind of risks you are. Uniformed social workers just don't do any of this, so they may as well not exist as a trade.



The opinion of the Padre (regardless of faith) also carries an enormous amount of 'weight' with the CO, and higher levels in the CoC, that can be deployed in support of the family/welfare needs of soldiers, especially at the lower levels where they frequently get steamrolled for various reasons.


----------



## Weinie (6 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I can't see any of the fire and brimstone types joining to start with, but if they did, nothing stopping them from getting punted if they did violate CAF ethics (or not recruited in the first place), but that really has to be based on the individual. This report is mostly shit, and that's a pretty good example of how poorly thought out a lot of it is, to propose a generalized religious discrimination in an advisory report on anti-discrimination. *Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.*
> 
> Chaplains have a lot of credibility and trust that no other entry point into the mental health services does, and to suggest that really exemplifies how out of touch this report is with reality. 10 out of 10 times I'd start by talking to a Chaplain (regardless of whatever their affiliation was) if I was looking for any advice/support etc, which is really easy to do when they deploy alongside you and are taking the same kind of risks you are. Uniformed social workers just don't do any of this, so they may as well not exist as a trade.


My wife, who has tholed the experience of all of our 4 children, and is a CAF member, completely agrees with you


----------



## mariomike (6 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I know police that work with social workers, none of them will go anywhere dangerous without a police escort, it's not in their training or outlook.


----------



## Navy_Pete (7 May 2022)

(edit to add: apologies, quote wasn't working; this is in ref to your reply #201)

@Weinie is that a great point? Extrapolating an individuals bias against a specific religious organization and banning people affiliated with a specific religious organization from even being eligible to join is a fairly broad brush, and would have to be a really extreme organization to even fly. Sure, maybe a Nazi Death Cult of Cthulu might pass a human rights complaint, but that's not the criteria that was proposed.

Large, established global religions have an absolute swath of factions. with varying levels of acceptance and tolerance. If someone is joining the CAF as any trade, they are committing to upholding the CAF ethics. If we look at the committees recommendation about what religious organizations to exclude, I think we'd probably be down to the Satanic Temple and maybe some other minor groups (which would be a pretty interesting Chaplains admittedly). If we instead just apply the existing rules when we screen individuals, and apply it consistently when there are incidents, that would have a real effect, instead of this theoretical nonsense.

I think the bit about maybe doing a PLAR to accept a bit of a wider range of chaplains is a good one. Would also be interesting to see potentially agnostic/atheist chaplains with a philosophy/theology background, who could theoretically do all the same functions aside from practicing some kind of religious ceremony, but even the prayers on parade are pretty non-denominational.

Aside from the label on the lapel, I couldn't tell you what specific religious organization any of the Chaplains I've met have been affiliated with as it just doesn't come up unless you ask or read their bio. At the end of the day Chaplains are recruited from the Canadian population, and the religious demographics by population  for the people that get recruited are primarily Abrahamic, and they are doing things like getting advisors on Indigenous practices, which I think is good. If the recruiting gets more successful at recruiting/retaining a more diverse group of people and Canada's demographics continue to shift, not really anything stopping other faiths from becoming Chaplains.


----------



## Good2Golf (7 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.


Meh.

I actually witnessed exactly such a situation early in my career and it was a Catholic Padre who was the proponent of initial and unwavering support for the member, who did eventually transition years later. 

So, you might throw out a hypothetical situation where you believe religious dogma might be an easy excuse to say that a troubled member wouldn’t be supported, but I saw a Padre represent what I had always believed to be the strength of the Chaplaincy, that all members were first and foremost supported emotionally and spiritually in the sense of non-denominational empathy and support.  I’ve been supported by Catholic, Anglican, United (a gay minister BTW) and also a Rabbi in my career and I never felt at any time that any one of the Padres was limited or biased by the institutional dogma of the particular denomination that a Padre was associated with.

You have more faith in the Social Worker Corps than I do.  Disappointing experiences with them, until ramped up to a Dr. level…

Alas, we all have our experiences and biases, but I wouldn’t be throwing out the Chaplain Corps to be replaced by social workers anytime soon…

$0.02


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## Weinie (7 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> (edit to add: apologies, quote wasn't working; this is in ref to your reply #201)
> 
> @Weinie is that a great point? Extrapolating an individuals bias against a specific religious organization and banning people affiliated with a specific religious organization from even being eligible to join is a fairly broad brush, and would have to be a really extreme organization to even fly. Sure, maybe a Nazi Death Cult of Cthulu might pass a human rights complaint, but that's not the criteria that was proposed.
> 
> ...


Maybe you misinterpreted my post. I actually agreed that a trans member wanting to join, would be ill-served by a religion that does not accept trans folks


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## lenaitch (7 May 2022)

"The extreme application of a military's mandate is otherwise counter to and morally repugnant to civil humanity; the place where its members come from, and I would suggest that military needs to provide an avenue where members can personally reconcile that conflict if need be."




btrudy said:


> Sure, but that's counselling. Which is well within the social worker's wheelhouse. There are some members for which a religious-based form of counselling would be more effective, but as society becomes less and less religious over time, the degree to which we'd need Padres in that role is decreasing.


Not necessarily.  Battlefield absolution/confession, last rites, or any other similarly significant services or acts performed by other faiths.   Statistically it is likely true that, based on national polls, the impact of faith and religion is diminishing in our society, but we can't deny the deep importance it has for those who still adhere. 

Most people who are 'called to the cloth' because they have determined it is a life encompassing calling to serve the tenets of their chosen faith and, when stripped down to their most basic, pretty much every faith is about compassion, sacrifice to service, acceptance and healing.  Not to take away from social workers, but I can't say I've ever run into a social worker with the same level of personal commitment.  People so inclined find strength in faith; people get help from counselling.  There's a difference.


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## Jarnhamar (7 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> That would be due to the nature in which we employ social workers. This can change. If we shift the focus of their employment, to have them taking over the roles that chaplains currently fill, then, well, they'll show up to the range, chat to folks, etc.


Or they may:
1. quit because they signed up to be social workers in an office and not sleep in tents; or
2. not join in the first place when.

I've dealt with non-military social workers before. Perhaps military ones are different but I really can't see any trained social workers having the mindset to rub shoulders with their potential clients like chaplains do.



btrudy said:


> The shared sense of comradery with chaplains has very little to do with religion, and everything to do with, well, everything else they do.


I see it the opposite. A chaplains religion is a sort of disarming tool. Helps them wander around and shoot the shit with soldiers, a subtle presence. I can't see social workers doing that and pushing that on them seems like really big role creep to me. But I'm open to being completely wrong.


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## OldSolduer (7 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Alas, we all have our experiences and biases, but I wouldn’t be throwing out the Chaplain Corps to be replaced by social workers anytime soon…
> 
> $0.02


As a retired guy with a lot of time in including working with padres I will reiterate my position: A good padre is worth their weight in gold.

Th padre is the "go to" person for extremely difficult personnel problems and understand the military far better than any civilian social worker will. 

BTW Mike Brown - one of our Padres in Croatia in 1993 was an  exemplary padre. He went toe to toe with the CO on a number of issues.

I was at his memorial service in 2009. RIP Padre.


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## Jarnhamar (7 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.


A certain religion has quite the low opinion about women. In fact elected members of our parliament who were female had to enter their place of worship by a separate door from men and sit in the back. 

Does this mean you would not trust an officer in the CAF who is a devout member of said religion to treat women soldiers fairly and without bias?


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## Ostrozac (7 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Same report seems to also recommend that you force fathers to take PATA, which is also nuts.


The recommendation that fathers must take PATA leave, including when their mistresses and one night stands give birth, was certainly an unexpected suggestion. Now that’s some out of the box thinking. Very cosmopolitan.


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## OldSolduer (7 May 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> The recommendation that fathers must take PATA leave, including when their mistresses and one night stands give birth, was certainly an unexpected suggestion. Now that’s some out of the box thinking. Very cosmopolitan.


Do I detect a note of sarcasm good sir?


----------



## mariomike (7 May 2022)

This banter reminds me of "The Last Detail",

Meadows : He better hope the Chaplain don't catch him at that.

Mulhall : Shit... most of the Navy Chaplains I know, they want to stand up on the bridge with the old man and look through aviator sunglasses.

Meadows : Mule... it takes a lot of dedication to be a Chaplain in the Navy.

Mulhall : It don't take diddly-shit, man!


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## Ostrozac (7 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Do I detect a note of sarcasm good sir?


QR&O requires a member to inform their CO of the birth of a child, and there doesn’t seem to be any legal requirement to inform the spouse. But said spouse would probably figure it out when the member takes PATA leave — “I’ve been ordered on leave, darling. For months. For… reasons”


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## daftandbarmy (7 May 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> The recommendation that fathers must take PATA leave, including when their mistresses and one night stands give birth, was certainly an unexpected suggestion. Now that’s some out of the box thinking. Very cosmopolitan.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> If there's a trans member who is experiencing harassment at their unit, I do not trust an ordained member of a religious organization which views the very existence of transgender people as an affront to their god to be able to come up with a solution that adequately deals with the harassment.


Have you actually been in any church lately? I am not religious, in fact brought up to look down at it, but married a Muslim girl, sent our kids to a United Church which has been incredibly welcoming and had two gay priest during our time there. They provide significant services to the community outside of religious services and often do it for free. As mentioned Chaplin's do it as a calling, whereas the majority of social workers do it because it's a job and they follow strict rules from risk adverse institutions.


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## daftandbarmy (7 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Have you actually been in any church lately? I am not religious, in fact brought up to look down at it, but married a Muslim girl, sent our kids to a United Church which has been incredibly welcoming and had two gay priest during our time there. They provide significant services to the community outside of religious services and often do it for free. As mentioned Chaplin's do it as a calling, whereas the majority of social workers do it because it's a job and they follow strict rules from risk adverse institutions.



Dude...  this is awesome.

You are the template of 'Canadian'


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## Brad Sallows (7 May 2022)

Although people can sometimes fall short, those who follow "hate the sin, love the sinner" usually manage to find the path to charity.

Products of contemporary university social work schools, I don't expect much from.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Who did they want to ban and who did they want to keep?


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Let's not pretend like various forms of bigotry don't go hand in hand.



I see you’ve shown up with my massively wide brush again.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> There is certainly this aspect. Which is why I'm not proposing that they be eliminated entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And how are you proposing to remove biases and personal beliefs from Social Workers?

I attended my Wings’ FVAT workshop recently.  One of the speakers was a civilian SW and FV specialist who constantly referred to the violent relationship mbr as “he” and the victim as “her”. The FV instance I was involved in (as the SWO) recently, the alleged victim was a male.  The same mbr also went to MH, saw a SW who he said was next to useless.  His word were “I could tell I was just another appointment on their calendar” and basically won’t go back.

I went to a Padre for advice on the situation because they have experience with this.  There is a level of trust that has existed  for decades between service mbrs and Padres, and I don’t practice any faith.  I do however have trust in the Padre branch.

In the recent past, I was the DA to a VSI mbr.   The Padre was an integral part of the care team. A SW - not.

Ref your part about a trans mbr;  the Padre  who supported me/the Wing I was on was a Rabbi.  The VSI mbr was RC.  When the VSI mbr wished to speak to a Padre, a RC Padre was contacted. There are simple solutions to these simple problems.

Suggesting SWs, with or without a Masters Degree (which I could care less about.  Education and ability have been proven to not go hand in hand countless times) will come without their own personal beliefs, values and agendas is wishful thinking.   They are people and all people bring those to the table.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> I've never seen a social worker steal from a mess and say nothing when junior members get blamed for their theft (until caught red-handed). I have seen that happen with a Padre.
> 
> Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad.



Certainly you can see the irony in your above post.   Or do suggest the entire Padre branch are thieves?


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> And how are you proposing to remove biases and personal beliefs from Social Workers?
> 
> I attended my Wings FVAT workshop recently.  One of the speakers was a civilian SW and FM specialist who constantly referred to the violent relationship mbr as “he” and the victim as “her”. The FV instance I was involved in (as the SWO) recently, the alleged victim was a male.  The same mbr also went to MH, saw a SW who he said was next to useless.  His word were “I could tell I was just another appointment on their calendar” and basically won’t go back.
> 
> ...



Great post!  Food for thought! 

Thank you.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I've dealt with non-military social workers before. Perhaps military ones are different but I really can't see any trained social workers having the mindset to rub shoulders with their potential clients like chaplains do.



Ive tried to work with military SWO, a few different ones.   I basically requested to be referred to a real SW and wrote a written statement of complaint with one of them.  Seriously said that to the MH Nurse “can I see a real SW”. 

The experience led me to believe all Officers should take the full BOTP;  I in no way believed the mbr I saw would have made it and equally believed that mbr had no business being in uniform.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I see you’ve shown up with “my massively wide brush” again…



There - fixed. Just noticed my phone did a wonkyness and eliminated my quotes.   No glasses/first Java operator error maybe.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (7 May 2022)

I am with EITS on this one.

While I don't believe in any organized religion (or any at all, actually), as DO, XO or CO, I have found that any time a Padre came round and said "Do you think we could chat for a moment" or words to that effect, it was well worth my time to clear the time needed and really listen to what they had to say.


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## SeaKingTacco (7 May 2022)

The Chaplain branch is worth their weight in gold. In 37 years, I have literally met one padre I would not do business with again. I cannot think of another occupation in the CAF with that kind of record of competence (maybe I have just been lucky).


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## OldTanker (7 May 2022)

I have been retired from the CF for 20 years, and maybe things have changed, but in my 32 years service I called upon the support of various padres on numerous occasions, both for myself and my soldiers. I don't recall ever being let down, and the religious affiliation of the padre in question never mattered. The last instance was in 2018 when my father (WW2 vet and totally non-religious) was terminally ill and died, and I asked the padre of a local militia unit to both provide counselling services to my father and I, and officiate at the memorial service. All of which he did willingly and with great compassion. Of course the chaplain branch had its share of bozos like any other group but not enough to damn the entire group. The other service the padres provided was the "purple net", which often could bypass bureaucratic obstacles to solve the soldier's problems. I frankly could care less what denomination the padre was (and perhaps my use of that term implies some disposition to a particular denomination, but it really doesn't - just the habit of an old soldier). Our padres served with the unit, faced the same hardships, joys and challenges as the soldiers, and were there for them when needed. I can't say I ever saw a social worker in the field in a hooch, nor did I ever have the same comforting experience with a social worker that I had with a padre. Don't muck with something that works (or at least did).


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## Navy_Pete (7 May 2022)

Weinie said:


> Maybe you misinterpreted my post. I actually agreed that a trans member wanting to join, would be ill-served by a religion that does not accept trans folks



How does that work in real life though? If we use Christianity as an example, there is a big difference between what the official party line is, what the national stance is, and then further division in different areas and then down to individual parishes. Grew up RC and the impact of the individual priest is massive, so can span from being intolerant to being actively and very vocally supportive of LGBT+.  Weirdly enough there are gay and trans Catholics as well, with parishes that are actively striving to be fully inclusive and welcoming places for them. May be outliers in the broader global organization, but we're recruiting individuals, not institutions, and lots of individuals are parts of institutions that don't agree with the party line (which is constantly changing anyway).

Who is going to play the gatekeeper anyway and what religious alignments can't join?

This is a theoretical broad brushed recommendation based on some pretty shaky assumptions that is unworkable in real life and likely illegal in Canada. Being from a certain religion doesn't automatically translate into discrimination, and we have the tools to get rid of people that do discriminate, padre or not. The ship deployments have 250ish people living within 450' of each other for 6-8 months, and the RC padre was a huge help for everyone; everyone got the same kind and friendly treatment including the LGBT+ crew members, and the church service was open to everyone, regardless of beliefs or orientation.


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## SeaKingTacco (7 May 2022)

My Det Chief asked the Ship’s Anglican Padre, with all seriousness, to bless the Helicopter after we had been having a bad run of serviceability.

The Padre took the request seriously, invented a short but solemn ceremony that was well attended. I was surprisingly touched by the effort he put into it and how thoughtful his message was.

Nobody, including the Padre, thought the blessing was going to “fix“ the helicopter. It was, however, a neat bit of psychology on the Detachment members . Never underestimate ceremony…


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> My Det Chief asked the Ship’s Anglican Padre, with all seriousness, to bless the Helicopter after we had been having a bad run of serviceability.
> 
> The Padre took the request seriously, invented a short but solemn ceremony that was well attended. I was surprisingly touched by the effort he put into it and how thoughtful his message was.
> 
> Nobody, including the Padre, thought the blessing was going to “fix“ the helicopter. It was, however, a neat bit of psychology on the Detachment members . Never underestimate ceremony…



That is a nice story and post!


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## SeaKingTacco (7 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> That is a nice story and post!


He was the best Padre I have ever seen. Heroic, funny, compassionate, smart as a whip. I did have to stop him one day from offering physical violence to a particularly clueless PAO,  but, to be fair, he was severely provoked and somehow his anger just endeared him more to me.


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## GR66 (7 May 2022)

I was very impressed by the Padres when I worked at the IPSC in Borden.  I won't speak for the members and their families, but I know that the staff was very happy to have such solid support on hand.


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## Remius (7 May 2022)

Jarnhammer brought up a good point earlier.  As a reservist, unless you are on class B or C your access to military social workers is limited.  But the Padre is a phone call away. And he answers.


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## Weinie (7 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> He was the best Padre I have ever seen. Heroic, funny, compassionate, smart as a whip. I did have to stop him one day from *offering physical violence to a particularly clueless PAO,*  but, to be fair, he was severely provoked and somehow his anger just endeared him more to me.


Get in line.


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## SeaKingTacco (7 May 2022)

Weinie said:


> Get in line.


No reflection on any of the good PAOs I have worked with in the past, but this guy was oblivious to how bad a situation was and the Padre started to get “Jesus flipping tables in the temple” angry…


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## dimsum (7 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> No reflection on any of the good PAOs I have worked with in the past, but this guy was oblivious to how bad a situation was and the Padre started to get “Jesus flipping tables in the temple” angry…


That would have been awesome to see.


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## SeaKingTacco (7 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> That would have been awesome to see.


I stopped him before it got biblical…

Maybe my one good deed!


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## Weinie (7 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I stopped him before it got biblical…
> 
> Maybe my one good deed!


You are going straight to Heaven. St. Peter will just nod when you approach.

Edited to add: You should have let him kill him; pour encuorager les autres.


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## daftandbarmy (7 May 2022)

Think on...


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## Edward Campbell (7 May 2022)

I was thinking of apologizing for posting the original article, but the discussion has been enlightening.

I was fortunate enough to know a couple of really good padres - two of them become Chaplain Generals (different demonization) and both enriched my life, as friends., and made our units better places in which all, of us - 950+ soldiers in 2RCR - served. 

I knew a coupe Padres who were eminent forgettable .. but I knew several regimental officers who were the same. The ratios seem about e even, in retrospect.

Like many others, I have availed myself of the services of padres and, especially as a regimental commander, I was rarely disappointed.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

Weinie said:


> You are going straight to Heaven. St. Peter will just nod when you approach.
> 
> Edited to add: You should have let him kill him; pour encuorager les autres.



I’m sensing you know both the situation and PAO in SKTs post…


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## FJAG (7 May 2022)

I don't have a religious bone in my body and IMHO the military needs to be secular in its policies and programs. It has gone a long way in achieving that over the last half century.

All that said, IMHO the chaplain corps is an essential element that is needed to not only minister to those who have faith and benefit from spiritual assistance in far away and dangerous places and to provide a wide variety of social and personnel services.

The authors of the report are simply out to lunch and in their scramble to be politically correct and have gone out of their way in not understanding that which they are criticizing.

🍻


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## OldSolduer (7 May 2022)

FJAG said:


> I don't have a religious bone in my body and IMHO the military needs to be secular in its policies and programs. It has gone a long way in achieving that over the last half century.
> 
> All that said, IMHO the chaplain corps is an essential element that is needed to not only minister to those who have faith and benefit from spiritual assistance in far away and dangerous places and to provide a wide variety of social and personnel services.
> 
> ...


And I’d add some have an axe to grind.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Certainly you can see the irony in your above post.   Or do suggest the entire Padre branch are thieves?


EITS is right. What you are saying is kind of like saying all women are prostitutes, because you met one who was. Saying "I am personally soured on them because I witnessed X" is ok, but tossing them all in the trash is quite harsh and disservice. If we tossed any rank that had an asshole or a O2 thief in them, we would not have any ranks left and the same applies to all trades as well.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2022)

Correct me if I’m wrong;  a SW can put a report in my med file, a Padre cannot and will not.

Aside from required pre/post-deployment processes, when I’ve needed the services of a SW/counsellor, I’ve personally used and recommend the Military Assistance Program to my subs and bosses in some cases.   Zero flow back to my med records except the mandatory reporting stuff (harm to self and others).

I like my privacy…


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## SupersonicMax (8 May 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I was fortunate enough to know a couple of really good padres - two of them become Chaplain Generals (different demonization) …


🤣


----------



## btrudy (8 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> EITS is right. What you are saying is kind of like saying all women are prostitutes, because you met one who was. Saying "I am personally soured on them because I witnessed X" is ok, but tossing them all in the trash is quite harsh and disservice. If we tossed any rank that had an asshole or a O2 thief in them, we would not have any ranks left and the same applies to all trades as well.


Seriously people. EITS brought up a single anecdote to try and paint Social Work Officers as being bad. I was specifically bringing up my own Padre anecdote specifically to highlight that anecdotes are nothing more than a single data point, and should not be used to paint the entire trade with a broad brush. You know, hence my follow on comment of "Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad."


----------



## Furniture (8 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Seriously people. EITS brought up a single anecdote to try and paint Social Work Officers as being bad. I was specifically bringing up my own Padre anecdote specifically to highlight that anecdotes are nothing more than a single data point, and should not be used to paint the entire trade with a broad brush. You know, hence my follow on comment of "Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad."


Fair point, though it was me that you were quoting. My lived experience is as valid as any other persons, so I will continue to express my opinions based on my experiences. 

You're right though, we need to look beyond individual experiences, and assess the broader impact. Based on the feedback here, chaplains are a net positive for the CAF. Based on the latest data I've seen, ~65% of Canadians identify as some form of Christian, with under 25% identifying as non-religious. Should we really reform the entire system of chaplains for under 25% of Canadians? 

I hate onions, and refuse to eat food with what I consider excessive use of onions. Should mess halls be banned from using onions? I feel like my food preferences are more important on a day-to-day basis than a "maybe someday" situation people dream up to support removing chaplains...


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## Gunnar (8 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> Should we really reform the entire system of chaplains for under 25% of Canadians?


Isn’t that currently what we do in every other field?  One peanut allergy changes the policies of school boards, one person with a different outlook on life changes (or creates) a « bathroom policy » where one was never needed before, etc., etc.  While there can be such a thing as the « tyranny of the majority », the modern trend has been the « tyranny of the protected minority », usually to the detriment of the majority.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Seriously people. EITS brought up a single anecdote to try and paint Social Work Officers as being bad. I was specifically bringing up my own Padre anecdote specifically to highlight that anecdotes are nothing more than a single data point, and should not be used to paint the entire trade with a broad brush. You know, hence my follow on comment of "Let's try to focus on generalities instead of whether or not one specific member you met once happened to be bad."



Actually I mentioned several unfavourable interactions with SW and SW Officers including 1 of my own, 1 during a workshop to demonstrate biases and imperfections of even experts and a situation I was involved in, indirectly, very recently in which a mbr said they would not use a SW service again.  I also spoke about my semi-recent (within the last year -> year and a half) experience in the DA (Designated Assistant) role in which the padre was very valuable to me, the VSI mbr and their family.  The day the mbr passed away, I was there with the family.  So was the RC Padre.  No one in that process ever asked for a SW Officer.

In my 3 decades of lacing up the boots, Padres have been valuable in many different situations and I was never disappointed with the results.  The 1 SW Officer I was referred to back around 2008 or so, I requested to be re-referred and made a complaint about (inappropriate comments and behaviour).

I'm not trying to paint them bad, I'm adding my own lived experiences to the discussion.


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> 🤣


Oh, sh!t ... flippin' autocorrect ... but it's too good to correct. Both my old chums (Stu Clark and George Traverse) would chuckle.


----------



## dimsum (9 May 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Oh, sh!t ... flippin' autocorrect ... but it's too good to correct. Both my old chums (Stu Clark and George Traverse) would chuckle.


I actually thought it was intentional.


----------



## Remius (9 May 2022)

The CAF is open to a diversity of demon worship.  I see no issues with it. Also the panel mentioned nothing of doing away with those denominations.  So all good.


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 May 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> And here's another. "contribution" to the retention debate: Opinion: Religious bigotry won’t solve the Canadian military’s discrimination problem


And another: Brian Dijkema: This proposed assault on Canada's religious freedom cannot stand from Brian Dijkema (Brian Dijkema | Writer | Convivium) of Cardus (About Us - Cardus)


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## Edward Campbell (9 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> I actually thought it was intentional.


Nah ... I'm not that quick-witted.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 May 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Oh, sh!t ... flippin' autocorrect ... but it's too good to correct. Both my old chums (Stu Clark and George Traverse) would chuckle.


I also got a much needed laugh; pictured a young and old priest fairly immediately.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 May 2022)

> The authors of the report are simply out to lunch and in their scramble to be politically correct and have gone out of their way in not understanding that which they are criticizing.



The report was more than that.  It was a not particularly well-crafted swing for the fences on all the points SJWs are trying to push, including their war against religion.  Whether or not the authors were pushing the agenda or too timid to push back on some of what they were hearing from advocates is only of passing interest.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 May 2022)

Remius said:


> The CAF is open to a diversity of demon worship.  I see no issues with it. Also the panel mentioned nothing of doing away with those denominations.  So all good.


Must be tough, virgins seem to be few and far between these days and PETA will be after you if you use chicken or pigs blood.


----------



## Remius (10 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Must be tough, virgins seem to be few and far between these days and PETA will be after you if you use chicken or pigs blood.


PETA and promiscuous people be damned.  They will comply with my freedom of religion.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (10 May 2022)

At the risk of seeming to backtrack on a previous comment in favour of chaplains over social work officers assuming their responsibilities, after reading some comments that paint Social Work Officers (SWOs) in a less that flattering light, I feel a need to provide some defense.  As I said before "_there is a reason that they are two separate occupations_".  While both are helping professions, it doesn't mean that they have the same professional responsibilities or specific duties in the military milieu.

For reference, QR&Os and CFAOs provide some detail about what they are supposed to do.  There may be some DAODs that flesh out (or limit) their duties.






						QR&O: Volume I - Chapter 33 Chaplain Services - Canada.ca
					

Queen's Regulations and Orders - QR&O - Chapter 33 - Chaplain Services




					www.canada.ca
				



CFAO 33-11  RESPONSIBILITIES AND DUTIES OF CHAPLAINS

CFAO 56-15  CANADIAN FORCES SOCIAL WORK SERVICES
CFAO 56-28  INVESTIGATION OF COMPASSIONATE PROBLEMS

Since the realities of a current emphasis on mental health issues have expanded the "clinical" employment of SWOs in frontline care (the medical frontline, not to be misconstrued with a combat frontline), the "traditional" model of the Base SWO has perhaps faded.  Being of a certain generation, I can remember when social workers did not report to the Medical Branch and they dealt more with the "social" aspects of psychosocial services.


> Psychosocial services program – Social workers provide brief interventions, crisis interventions, alcohol/drug/gambling addiction counselling and information services, as well as handle administrative requests (eg, involving unexpected moves, compassionate status and postings, assessments for OUTCAN postings) and pre-deployment and post-deployment screenings.


Even with more use of SWOs as therapists (including deployed with medical elements on operations), they still have a formal role in a number of administrative functions which (from my dated experience) were often the reason for individuals to not hold them in a favourable light (e.g., when their assessment and recommendation negatively affected posting and/or deployments).  This ombudsman's report touches on the subject.






						Service versus Self Report - Canada.ca
					

A systemic investigation into contingency cost moves for personal reasons, compassionate status, and compassionate postings in the Canadian Armed Forces




					www.canada.ca
				





> *The Social Worker’s role is not well defined or understood in the contingency cost move, compassionate status, and compassionate posting policy or process.*
> DAOD 5003-6 provides an overview of the Base/Wing Social Worker role within the contingency cost move, compassionate status, and compassionate posting process but does not outline their appointment, assessment, and report requirements. D Mil C confirmed that they do not make decisions without a Base/Wing Social Worker assessment of the member’s situation, though this is not outlined in the policy. The policy outlines that the Commanding Officer will seek additional information only if insufficient information is available at the unit level or the Commanding Officer cannot support the request. As well, the possibility of a second tier of Social Worker review at the National level is not outlined in the policy.
> 
> Most CAF members and families interviewed did not know of the National Social Worker Group’s role, unless that group intervened.
> ...



And the chaplains were reviewed recently.






						Review of the Royal Canadian Chaplain Service - Canada.ca
					

Review of the Royal Canadian Chaplain Service




					www.canada.ca
				



A couple of excerpts from the report that may be of interest, however there is much more in the full report germane to this specific discussion.


> Base/wing commanders feel that the RCChS is a vital service and that chaplains contribute to the resilience and mental and spiritual health of the Defence Team. It was also felt that chaplains provide the pulse and advisory support to the CAF command team, including the ability to gauge the overall morale and health of the team.
> 
> However, not all agreed on the need for the CAF chaplaincy. As the CAF population becomes less religious (see Finding 2), the need for chaplains is called into question by a few. As chaplains are embedded in their units, they are often called on for matters beyond the religious or spiritual, including for mental health issues. In the survey of CAF members, when asked for comments, 7 percent of those who responded stated that mental health experts or social workers should replace chaplains in these cases.





> *Composition of RCChS*
> 
> RCChS chaplains represent a number of different faith traditions. There is an opportunity for the chaplaincy to better reflect the diversity of the Canadian population. For instance, there is greater representation from Protestant denominations, lower representation among non-Christian Faith Traditions, and no representation from non-religious groups.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 May 2022)

In honour of GBA+ awareness week I'll take a moment and explain how important diversity is.

Some months back a call went out for a course. Something about creating a positive work place with an emphasis on
2slgbtq+.  Very important for me as a leader to understand and champion, right? I signed up. 

I was asked if I identified as lgbtq+ (silently noting they forgot the 2s) and I said no,  hetero male. I was told that straight males weren't the target audience for this course but thanks and maybe next time.

Around the same time I volunteered for another work shop about diversity and people of colour in the work place (or words to that effect).
Hand over my heart I was told it wasn't intended for Caucasians.


Excellent work by the CAF IMO.


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## Ostrozac (11 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In honour of GBA+ awareness week I'll take a moment and explain how important diversity is.
> 
> Some months back a call went out for a course. Something about creating a positive work place with an emphasis on
> 2slgbtq+.  Very important for me as a leader to understand and champion, right? I signed up.
> ...


That’s a bit of a worst case scenario, isn’t it? We change our military culture just enough to make our traditional recruiting pool feel unwelcome and unappreciated, encouraging them to walk away, but we don’t change our culture enough to actually attract a new demographic to replace them.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 May 2022)

Did you ask them when the white only courses will be?


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## Furniture (11 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In honour of GBA+ awareness week I'll take a moment and explain how important diversity is.
> 
> Some months back a call went out for a course. Something about creating a positive work place with an emphasis on
> 2slgbtq+.  Very important for me as a leader to understand and champion, right? I signed up.
> ...


A friend of mine had the same experience, he was turned down for a couple of things he volunteered for because as a straight white male he wasn't "diverse" enough. I had a sense they didn't want people like me, so didn't even bother to waste the effort to write the email to volunteer.


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## rmc_wannabe (11 May 2022)

I have noticed a bit of this attitude and brought it up when I took part in the Positive Space Facilitator Conference this past February. By making our diversity groups and training an echo chamber, drawn from the groups that we're trying to make awareness about, it becomes almost self serving, like the same 5 nerds playing D&D in the cafeteria in high-school.

If we want to understand and incorporate diversity as a standing value within the CAF, everyone needs to be on board, not just grabbing a bunch of people that fit the description for a PAO video montage.


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## Good2Golf (11 May 2022)

Perhaps I’m perhaps going out on a limb assuming this, but here goes…since I’m assuming it’s not older, white heteronormative males running this show, the fact that those who are running this effort have gone with “splash a pretty young (Caucasian) woman around as the face of gender-based consideration” makes you not help but wonder why the CAF still isn’t getting it.

When an organization can’t even stretch to include an identifiably diverse member to represent the effort, you know you have a fail. 

Heck, if I can tell that Febreeze is portraying a lesbian couple spraying their house to be fresher in their ads, surely to goodness the CAF could do something even slightly representative? 🤦🏻


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## SeaKingTacco (11 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In honour of GBA+ awareness week I'll take a moment and explain how important diversity is.
> 
> Some months back a call went out for a course. Something about creating a positive work place with an emphasis on
> 2slgbtq+.  Very important for me as a leader to understand and champion, right? I signed up.
> ...


I recommend that you bring this to the attention of the CoC.

If hetro males are being blanket excluded from these types of events and it is not just a “one off”, this needs to be fixed.

If your CoC is unable/unwilling to deal with this, I do know that CPCC has a plus account on the DWAN.


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## daftandbarmy (11 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I recommend that you bring this to the attention of the CoC.
> 
> If hetro males are being blanket excluded from these types of events and it is not just a “one off”, this needs to be fixed.
> 
> If your CoC is unable/unwilling to deal with this, I do know that CPCC has a plus account on the DWAN.



That could be dangerous. Seriously.

We're in the midst of a roll out of various political agenda in the CAF that will, based on the incompetence involved given the above examples, will likely fail in some way ... and take a few careers with them. Any kind of complaining could be taken the wrong way, especially by WASP-ish males...

IMHO, it's better to let the 'Widow Makers' come down on their own and then carry on ....


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## Fabius (11 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I recommend that you bring this to the attention of the CoC.
> 
> If hetro males are being blanket excluded from these types of events and it is not just a “one off”, this needs to be fixed.
> 
> If your CoC is unable/unwilling to deal with this, I do know that CPCC has a plus account on the DWAN.


That would assume that those policies are NOT being driven from the center.  That's a bet I would not be willing to take right now.


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## Good2Golf (11 May 2022)

Fabius said:


> That would assume that those policies are NOT being driven from the center.  That's a bet I would not be willing to take right now.


Centre-driven, Departmental or lower, doesn’t make it right.


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## kratz (11 May 2022)

It might be the cynic in me, but D.I.E. = Diversity, Inclusion and Equity is very effective for two reasons.
Opening spaces for target audiences and burying previous traditional population.


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## Brad Sallows (11 May 2022)

> Something about creating a positive work place



Doesn't achieve the aim if it's just aggrieved people talking about what grieves them.

Also doesn't achieve the aim if everyone's invited, but it turns into a "struggle session" with (guess who) in the middle.


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## quadrapiper (11 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Perhaps I’m perhaps going out on a limb assuming this, but here goes…since I’m assuming it’s not older, white heteronormative males running this show, the fact that those who are running this effort have gone with “splash a pretty young (Caucasian) woman around as the face of gender-based consideration” makes you not help but wonder why the CAF still isn’t getting it.
> 
> When an organization can’t even stretch to include an identifiably diverse member to represent the effort, you know you have a fail.
> 
> Heck, if I can tell that Febreeze is portraying a lesbian couple spraying their house to be fresher in their ads, surely to goodness the CAF could do something even slightly representative? 🤦🏻


Especially well done when the concept of intersectionality is both _not new_ at this point, and highlighted in the all-hands GBA+ click-through, let alone whatever more involved material is floating around the CAF.

Looking at messaging, IIRC the MARPAC, RCN, and CAF PAff staff managed to pull together photos of a reasonably diverse collection of personnel for their  International Women's Day messaging. Really isn't asking too much that the same be done for other, more enduring material.

As an impression, and I think it's changing, but the PAff and in-house graphic design world does seem to have tended towards "pretty, doing something clean, and probably Caucasian" archetype when it's time to put up photos of women in the CAF for _anything. _


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## daftandbarmy (11 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In honour of GBA+ awareness week I'll take a moment and explain how important diversity is.
> 
> Some months back a call went out for a course. Something about creating a positive work place with an emphasis on
> 2slgbtq+.  Very important for me as a leader to understand and champion, right? I signed up.
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (11 May 2022)

If the CAF is serious about EDI, here's an option that's working with other organizations:

Why Reverse Mentoring Works and How to Do It Right​

*Summary. *

Many companies struggle to attract and retain Millennial talent. A few are experimenting with reverse-mentoring programs to address that problem. These programs can increase retention, help senior executives become more sophisticated about social media, drive culture change, and promote diversity.

When Mark Tibergien, CEO of Advisor Solutions, thought about the future of BNY Mellon’s Pershing, he knew the company had a problem. Millennials were uninterested in working in financial services. In addition, Millennials who did join the company were leaving the company at higher rates than their older peers.

Like BNY Mellon’s Pershing, many companies struggle with how to retain Millennial talent – and also with how to stay relevant to younger consumers. In response to these challenges, leadership teams of major companies around the world are implementing reverse-mentoring programs. Reverse mentoring pairs younger employees with executive team members to mentor them on various topics of strategic and cultural relevance. This approach has precedent: in the late 1990s, GE’s Jack Welch used reverse mentoring to teach senior executives about the internet. But modern reverse mentoring extends far beyond just sharing knowledge about technology; today’s programs focus on how senior executives think about strategic issues, leadership, and the mindset with which they approach their work. Describing the primary issues that she mentored on, Kayla Kennelly (one of the original mentors at BNY Mellon’s Pershing) stated: “The top of [Mark Tibergien’s] list was, ‘How do I connect with the younger generation?’… And then, ‘How do I attract and retain younger talent?’ Technology has been important but it has been pretty much at the bottom of many of the mentors/mentees lists.”

 In our research, we found four main benefits of reverse-mentoring programs.

_*Increased retention of Millennials*._Reverse-mentoring programs provide Millennials with the transparency and recognition that they’re seeking from management. According to Gerry Tamburro, former managing director at BNY Mellon’s Pershing, who was both a mentee and a founder of the company’s program, “This [program] helped the executive committee not only to be more transparent but to also seek input from people throughout the organization on many decisions.” The former CEO of BNY Mellon’s Pershing, Ron DeCicco, and his Millennial mentor, Jamilynn Camino, co-developed fireside chats to increase the CEO’s connection with employees. In these chats, which ran for over three years and were the most highly attended company event, DeCicco discussed critical issues and solicited employee feedback. BNY-Mellon|Pershing experienced a 96% retention rate for the first cohort of Millennial mentors.

_*Sharing of digital skills*_. While digital skill development should not be the focus of a reverse-mentoring program, many of the companies we researched mentioned that it was a meaningful part of the relationship. For example, the current CEO of BNY Mellon’s Pershing (then COO) used his mentor to help him with social media, which he had never before integrated into his working life. Now, he is one of the most avid social-media users inside the company. As Cimino stated, “Jim [Crowley] has totally shifted the way he interacts and communicates with employees… Jim is incredibly active on [our internal social media platform]. [He] is also active representing the company [on LinkedIn], which he never was before this program.”

_*Driving culture change*_. As Estée Lauder’s CEO, Fabrizio Freda, noted, the company “had come to a place where the future could not be informed by the past” and therefore decided to implement a reverse mentoring program. Besides educating senior executives on the importance of social media influencers for the overall shopping experience, Millennial mentors developed Dreamspace, a knowledge-sharing portal to exchange ideas. Estée Lauder distributed bi-monthly alerts to employees, including the executive leadership team, on the leading topics discussed on Dreamspace. Kennelly of BNY Mellon’s Pershing told us that she and her mentee had discussed why young people weren’t attracted to the financial services profession. “He asked me to research this question. I came back with three reasons, including a general distrust of the industry, negative portrayal of the industry in media, and misperception that the profession was only about sales. He then used these reasons in shaping the recruitment strategy.”

_*Promoting diversity*_. The global law firm Linklaters piloted a reverse-mentoring program in order to improve leadership’s understanding of minority issues, including those of LGBT and ethnic minorities. And in 2014, PricewaterhouseCoopers launched its reverse-mentoring program as part of its drive for diversity and inclusion. The program now has 122 Millennials mentoring 200 partners and directors worldwide.

Program organizers should consider the following four points, which we found to be critical to realizing the benefits of reverse mentoring:

_*The right match is crucial*_. First, emphasize diversity, matching across region, department, and location. Also match for diverse personalities (e.g., it is better to have an introvert paired with an extravert than to pair two introverts). Second, consult mentees before making the pairing formal. While most Millennial mentors accepted any pairing (as long as the mentee was committed), executive mentees were more selective, as they were concerned about crossing supervisory lines and any appearance of conflict of interest.

_*Address mentees’ fear and distrust*_. Many executives are fearful of revealing their lack of knowledge to junior employees. But if the fears are addressed explicitly, open sharing can be incredibly rewarding. At BNY Mellon’s Pershing, these concerns were part of the early discussions within the mentor-mentee community. As Crowley stated, “You know you are exposing yourself, you are exposing your vulnerabilities and… I think that that helps actually strengthen the bond between the two of you and it’s not a bad thing.” Many mentees are also fearful of junior employees sharing sensitive information with co-workers. However, in all the companies we studied, breach of confidentiality was never a problem that we could discern.

_*Ensure strong commitment from the mentees*_. The number one reason that reverse-mentoring programs fail is that the executives don’t prioritize the relationship; after a couple of cancelled sessions, the momentum quickly dwindles. But it’s the Millennial mentors who should drive the program through sharing best practices, helping to select new cohorts, and training mentors. Research shows that without training, only one-third of mentor-mentee relationships succeed, which increases to two-thirds with training. In the companies we studied, training included preparing new mentors for how to structure successful sessions with their mentees and to share challenges faced in the relationships.

_ *Don’t mix a shadow board and reverse-mentoring program*_. In June, we wrote about another method for integrating Millennials into the organization – shadow boards. Some companies we studied tried to introduce both programs within a single cohort. This led to one or the other winning out; they were never simultaneously successful. Companies wanting to run a shadow board and reverse-mentoring program at the same time can perhaps follow Estée Lauder’s example by using different participants for each program.

Why Junior Employees Should Mentor Senior Employees


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## Jarnhamar (11 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I recommend that you bring this to the attention of the CoC.


I deleted the emails. After getting refused the training I can't be bothered to care anymore. Not the most noble of attitudes I'll admit.


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## Booter (11 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I deleted the emails. After getting refused the training I can't be bothered to care anymore. Not the most noble of attitudes I'll admit.


I doubt you’d get much traction- this is pretty normal at the moment. Not being the target demographic…


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## Navy_Pete (11 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> In honour of GBA+ awareness week I'll take a moment and explain how important diversity is.
> 
> Some months back a call went out for a course. Something about creating a positive work place with an emphasis on
> 2slgbtq+.  Very important for me as a leader to understand and champion, right? I signed up.
> ...


Really visionary to think the 60+% of the CAF that happen to be straight white males couldn't somehow contribute to a more inclusive workplace by learning some things at a workshop, possibly by just hearing someone's experience as a 2slgbtq+ in the CAF, and maybe taking that away to conciously try and improve things in the future that they may not have even been aware of otherwise.

On the flip side, for the orange shirt day there was a really good workshop put on here in Ottawa. The presenters included residential school survivors as well as children of residential school survivors and gave some good first hand insight into how that impacted them (or how having their parents go through that impacted them) which was open to everyone and genuinely learned a lot from it (as aforementioned straight white male). Haven't been able to join some of the 'Ask me anything' type sessions, but have heard that some were good, some were bad, and others were inbetween.


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## kev994 (11 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> On the flip side, for the orange shirt day there was a really good workshop put on here in Ottawa. The presenters included residential school survivors as well as children of residential school survivors and gave some good first hand insight into how that impacted them (or how having their parents go through that impacted them) which was open to everyone and genuinely learned a lot from it (as aforementioned straight white male). Haven't been able to join some of the 'Ask me anything' type sessions, but have heard that some were good, some were bad, and others were inbetween.


At my base the indigenous group invites everyone to their smudging ceremonies, they explain it really well, tell a story it’s super interesting.


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## daftandbarmy (11 May 2022)

kev994 said:


> At my base the indigenous group invites everyone to their smudging ceremonies, they explain it really well, tell a story it’s super interesting.



I've had similar experiences with Indigenous communities.

It's almost as if we could learn alot from them about how to respectfully share different ideas and practises with others in a way that facilitates authentic engagement, understanding and appreciation.


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## Kilted (12 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> A friend of mine had the same experience, he was turned down for a couple of things he volunteered for because as a straight white male he wasn't "diverse" enough. I had a sense they didn't want people like me, so didn't even bother to waste the effort to write the email to volunteer.


Pretty soon skin colour is going to affect your ability to DAG Green.


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## daftandbarmy (12 May 2022)

Kilted said:


> Pretty soon skin colour is going to affect your ability to DAG Green.



Or the levels of certain hormones 


Canada’s Mali mission will emphasize deployment of female peacekeepers

The Canadian contingent will be a combination of Chinook helicopters, which will be tasked with providing medical evacuations and logistical support, and smaller Griffons to act as armed escorts for the larger transports.









						Canada’s Mali mission will emphasize deployment of female peacekeepers
					

The Canadian contingent will be a combination of Chinook helicopters, which will be tasked with providing medical evacuations and logistical support, and smaller Griffons to act as armed escorts for the larger transports.




					www.thestar.com


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## rmc_wannabe (12 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Or the levels of certain hormones


I had guys deploy on that mission and it apparently was a gong show trying to fill that specific requirement... mainly because a lot of the positions needing to be filled in certain trades,  there was 1 to 2 pers in the CAF they could deploy; before factoring in DAG status and availability. The Germans apparently thought we were insane for caving to that demand from the UN.


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## daftandbarmy (12 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I had guys deploy on that mission and it apparently was a gong show trying to fill that specific requirement... mainly because a lot of the positions needing to be filled in certain trades,  there was 1 to 2 pers in the CAF they could deploy; before factoring in DAG status and availability. The Germans apparently thought we were insane for caving to that demand from the UN.



The Germans were right


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## OldSolduer (12 May 2022)

He





Kilted said:


> Pretty soon skin colour is going to affect your ability to DAG Green.


Only white straight males are racist ya know?


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## dimsum (12 May 2022)

Kilted said:


> Pretty soon skin colour is going to affect your ability to DAG Green.


Maybe, but not in the way you expect.

For example:  

Say we go to another African nation for peacekeeping or whatever, and say that nation was a colony of either France, UK, Belgium, Germany, Italy...you get my drift.

If I were the one picking candidates (I am not), maybe a thought would be "would the local population be more receptive to a white or black dude", all things being equal (e.g. they both speak the local lingua franca, etc).  I would probably be considering that even more if it's not under the auspices of something like the UN. 

Taking it further - same goes with women.  I wasn't doing that, but I've heard that in Afghanistan, having female soldiers/etc on patrol meant that they could talk to the women, whereas generally the men could not.  That gives an entire new aspect to the situation and yeah, I'd probably want to make sure that the task force includes women.


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## Quirky (12 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Only white straight males are racist ya know?



Man, should go for a walk in Richmond, BC. 

Yes I know you were being sarcastic.


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## Weinie (12 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Or the levels of certain hormones
> 
> 
> Canada’s Mali mission will emphasize deployment of female peacekeepers
> ...


The good news is that in most males(myself included apparently, but not evidently) hormonal levels decrease with age. So less male/more experienced CAF is evolving. Score!


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## Good2Golf (12 May 2022)

Weinie said:


> The good news is that in most males(myself included apparently, but not evidently) hormonal levels decrease with age. So less male/more experienced CAF is evolving. Score!


There may be some Queen Bees in the CAF who may have even higher testosterone than your average WASPHNM…


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## rmc_wannabe (12 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Say we go to another African nation for peacekeeping or whatever, and say that nation was a colony of either France, UK, Belgium, Germany, Italy...you get my drift.


White colonialism has been a scourge on that continent since well before Canada was a country. Even our own backyard is full of actual skeletons from our colonial past we are starting to address. I don't think we can walk in with a diverse TF and hold the moral high ground any more than the Belgians, Spaniards, or British.


dimsum said:


> If I were the one picking candidates (I am not), maybe a thought would be "would the local population be more receptive to a white or black dude", all things being equal (e.g. they both speak the local lingua franca, etc).  I would probably be considering that even more if it's not under the auspices of something like the UN.


As we saw in Somalia, Rwanda,  Sudan, CAR, Sierra Leone etc... even if we are good at peacekeeping, Africa needs to fix Africa. Task tailoring a Canadian TF based on race, lingua franca, or otherwise is a fools errand



dimsum said:


> Taking it further - same goes with women.  I wasn't doing that, but I've heard that in Afghanistan, having female soldiers/etc on patrol meant that they could talk to the women, whereas generally the men could not.  That gives an entire new aspect to the situation and yeah, I'd probably want to make sure that the task force includes women.


Diversity is a force multiplier for sure; however, it's not the sole blueprint for building a TO&E. Women, diverse members, linguistic specialists, cultural specialist,etc all play a role in mission success, but they are not the only factor. Having competent, proficient soldiers and leaders in place that will complement diversity with ability should be the motivating factor in how we force generate and force employ.


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## Infanteer (12 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Maybe, but not in the way you expect.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...



So, are you saying we should send white people over others to the Balkans next time we need to conduct a mission there?


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## OldSolduer (12 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> Man, should go for a walk in Richmond, BC.
> 
> Yes I know you were being sarcastic.


What’s in Richmond? I seriously don’t know.


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## dimsum (12 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> What’s in Richmond? I seriously don’t know.


A ton of Chinese people/businesses.


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## Grimey (12 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> What’s in Richmond? I seriously don’t know.


Let's just say there's more people of a WASPHNM hue in Hong Kong than Richmond.  Old joke:  Q. Which river separates India and China.  A. The Fraser.


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## Edward Campbell (12 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> What’s in Richmond? I seriously don’t know.


It is, probably, Canada's most Asian City.

It is a suburb of Vancouver. It has a long Asian tradition. The fishing village of Steveston was mainly Japanese Canadian for the 20th century - and they came back and prospered, again, after being interred.

In the 1950s Richmond developed a plan to try to attract more Asian (Japan and HK and Taiwan) immigration. It worked.


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## daftandbarmy (12 May 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> It is, probably, Canada's most Asian City.
> 
> It is a suburb of Vancouver. It has a long Asian tradition. The fishing village of Steveston was mainly Japanese Canadian for the 20th century - and they came back and prospered, again, after being interred.
> 
> In the 1950s Richmond developed a plan to try to attract more Asian (Japan and HK and Taiwan) immigration. It worked.



And there's no bilingual signage in many places. Although most of us know where the best restaurants are located without a sign being required 

‘New minority’ in Richmond fail in push for inclusion of English on signs​A small but vocal group of Richmond seniors were despondent Monday after city council rejected their call for a bylaw quashing Chinese-only signage in a city where more than half the residents are of Chinese descent.









						‘New minority’ in Richmond fail in push for inclusion of English on signs
					

A small but vocal group of Richmond seniors were despondent Monday after city council rejected their call for a bylaw quashing Chinese-only signage in a city…




					vancouversun.com


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## Kilted (12 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Maybe, but not in the way you expect.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


We can talk about how diverse a task forces needs to be for a specific missing all day, the reality of the situation is do we actually have the people to fill the position without taking their race into consideration?

I was more refering to how we are starting to see more and more things excluding white people, I'm just wondering how far we will see it go?


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## Brad Sallows (12 May 2022)

Approximately until the point at which the people doing the excluding notice that the people excluded can also exclude themselves (disengage) from other things, and tally up the costs.


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## btrudy (12 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I don't think we can walk in with a diverse TF and hold the moral high ground any more than the Belgians, Spaniards, or British.


Pretty hard to be worse than the Belgians were in the Congo.


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## rmc_wannabe (12 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Pretty hard to be worse than the Belgians were in the Congo.


Oh I know. I was pointing out that our colonial past isn't as squeaky clean as we like to think.


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## QV (12 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Oh I know. I was pointing out that our colonial past isn't as squeaky clean as we like to think.


List me the cultures or societies that have not committed some bad behavior in the past.


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## Halifax Tar (12 May 2022)

QV said:


> List me the cultures or societies that have not committed some bad behavior in the past.



And that is the unspoken truth.  History is violent and messy and there is no country or culture without sin.  

For some reason it's just that's it's become fashionable to only recognize the sins of some... I blame our shitty post secondary education system.


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## rmc_wannabe (12 May 2022)

QV said:


> List me the cultures or societies that have not committed some bad behavior in the past.


Not going to get into this.

We have committed atrocities as a species since we first walked upright. 

My ancestral homeland (an island in the middle of the Mediterranean) has been invaded/conquered by everyone from the Phoenicians to the Nazis in its millenia of continued settlement. It's the nature of the game when there's only so much room on this rock orbiting the sun.

My point was that no amount of forced diversity in a theoretical Canadian Peacekeeping operation in Africa will change the fact that Africa needs to fix Africa. My point is also that we don't hold any moral high ground compared to the usual suspects. 

As always, the best trained, best equipped, and best lead troops are the ones that will be successful on operations; regardless of the race, gender, orientation, or background of those that make up the task force.


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## Good2Golf (12 May 2022)

Grimey said:


> Let's just say there's more people of a WASPHNM hue in Hong Kong than Richmond.  Old joke:  Q. Which river separates India and China.  A. The Fraser.


I think my Scottish immigrant WASPHNM grand uncle was the last non-Asian resident of Richmond, prior to passing away a few years ago…


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## Grimey (12 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> And that is the unspoken truth.  History is violent and messy and there is no country or culture without sin.
> 
> For some reason it's just that's it's become fashionable to only recognize the sins of some... I blame our shitty post secondary education system.


^^^This.  I could self-flagellate myself all day for the temerity of my ancestors in colouring a quarter of the planet imperial pink. Conversely, I could go for reparations against Italy and Denmark for soundly thrashing those same ancestors a thousand years previously.  I feel the hurt to this day .


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## Navy_Pete (12 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I've had similar experiences with Indigenous communities.
> 
> It's almost as if we could learn alot from them about how to respectfully share different ideas and practises with others in a way that facilitates authentic engagement, understanding and appreciation.


This was mine too, and honestly when I was listening to some of the stories I was a bit baffled by how they could share the residential school experiences and not have a lot of hate for any 'colonizer'. 

Better people than me, but have been to some smudging ceremonies, an actual pow wow, drum circles and have always found it really welcoming and learned a lot. Plus the food is good and people are pretty friendly, so it's almost like if you aren't a jerk and just listen to people you can figure things out.

Still haunted from doing some trips up in around Labrador and seeing small communities with no potable water, really wish I could do something concrete to help there. I figure I have enough practice working through the BS of government that I could maybe pitch in to help navigate the stupid bureaucracies.


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## daftandbarmy (12 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I think my Scottish immigrant WASPHNM grand uncle was the last non-Asian resident of Richmond, prior to passing away a few years ago…



I lived in Richmond for awhile when i was a kid. It was like being Huckleberry Finn. 

We roamed the landscape with impunity, fishing in the Fraser River and shooting frogs with pellet guns because: 70s kids.

I didn't even think about it at the time but we had a gang that ran the full range of backgrounds. I think that, between us all, we had just about every continent covered


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## Eye In The Sky (12 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Maybe, but not in the way you expect.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...



This is hitting on the actual point of GBA+ (which we failed horribly to teach in the CAF).

There are several much better courses available thru the NATO Joint Advanced Learning e-school.  I can provide the ADL names/#s to anyone interested.  Free PD once you register on the NATO JADL site, the training covers all the things CAF GBA+ failed horribly on.

Those specific ADLs are also linked to MITE codes.


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## rmc_wannabe (12 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> This is hitting on the actual point of GBA+ (which we failed horribly to teach in the CAF).
> 
> There are several much better courses available thru the NATO Joint Advanced Learning e-school.  I can provide the ADL names/#s to anyone interested.  Free PD once you register on the NATO JADL site, the training covers all the things CAF GBA+ failed horribly on.
> 
> Those specific ADLs are also linked to MITE codes.


I will echo EITS on this one. I completed ADL 169 & 170 and they hit the mark far better than the GoC effort. Great training and we'll worth the time spent.


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## OldSolduer (13 May 2022)

Here's a thought. Lets get our Indigenous population up to speed. FOrget about GBA bullshit.


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## TacticalTea (16 May 2022)

Bit of propaganda media rehashing, from two hours ago: Military failing to remove barriers to diversifying ranks: ombudsman



> The ombudsman noted numerous barriers to the recruitment of Armed Forces members from the designated groups had been reported over the years, including language requirements, security-clearance delays and a lack of representation among recruiters.


Okay so should we be enrolling folks that can't even speak one of the two constitutional and working languages of the Forces?
Then, what in the world do security clearances have to do with racism?
And for the third one... so... fix racism with more racism? Got it.


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## Eye In The Sky (16 May 2022)

It goes a little like this…


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## daftandbarmy (16 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Bit of propaganda media rehashing, from two hours ago: Military failing to remove barriers to diversifying ranks: ombudsman
> 
> 
> Okay so should we be enrolling folks that can't even speak one of the two constitutional and working languages of the Forces?
> ...



Yet another 'sore thumb' report. 

It's kind of like Mike Tyson continually being put in the ring with Rick Moranis...


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## Booter (16 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Bit of propaganda media rehashing, from two hours ago: Military failing to remove barriers to diversifying ranks: ombudsman
> 
> 
> Okay so should we be enrolling folks that can't even speak one of the two constitutional and working languages of the Forces?
> ...


So. On the topic of security clearances, we let in a bunch of people without them- a “we ll sort it out during training” thing to get the “right” folks in- there was some naming conventions that slowed things down- and residences and family etc.

The overwhelming majority were fine- as you would expect. But we also let in a bunch of known gang members. 

There is a barrier there that causes an issue for some certain applicants. But it really is necessary- 

The answer? In case anyone is interested- is to take security seriously and dedicate the right amount of resources. Not to risk it out and go “oops”


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## TacticalTea (16 May 2022)

Booter said:


> So. On the topic of security clearances, we let in a bunch of people without them- a “we ll sort it out during training” thing to get the “right” folks in- there was some naming conventions that slowed things down- and residences and family etc.
> 
> The overwhelming majority were fine- as you would expect. But we also let in a bunch of known gang members.
> 
> ...


Exactly.


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## Halifax Tar (16 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Exactly.



How ?  What is that effect elsewhere by shifting those resources ?


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## Booter (16 May 2022)

The effect of having the right amount of people dedicated to security clearances and the backlog is that security clearances get done and we aren’t asking outside agencies and international partners to trust our certificates and promises that the person will get a clearance in lieu of an actual security clearance 🤷‍♀️

I’m of course being a bit of a bitch. But it’s either a thing you do or it’s not. If it’s important you do it- and if it’s not let’s not act like it is. 

If it’s a barrier to recruitment from certain communities- it also needs more resources.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Bit of propaganda media rehashing, from two hours ago: Military failing to remove barriers to diversifying ranks: ombudsman



The report from the 'budsman.






						Employment Equity and Diversity in the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces - Canada.ca
					

This report examines the history of employment equity in the Department of National Defence (DND) and the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) from 1997 to 2021. We looked at how these organizations have dealt with hiring, recruitment and retention for the four groups designated in the Employment Equity...




					www.canada.ca


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## Quirky (16 May 2022)

Soon enough we will get reports that the CF isn’t doing enough to recruit people period.


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## Humphrey Bogart (16 May 2022)

Booter said:


> So. On the topic of security clearances, we let in a bunch of people without them- a “we ll sort it out during training” thing to get the “right” folks in- there was some naming conventions that slowed things down- and residences and family etc.
> 
> The overwhelming majority were fine- as you would expect. But we also let in a bunch of known gang members.
> 
> ...









This is Canada you're talking about!  How dare you suggest such a thing!


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## rmc_wannabe (16 May 2022)

Booter said:


> I’m of course being a bit of a bitch. *But it’s either a thing you do or it’s not. If it’s important you do it- and if it’s not let’s not act like it is.*


As someone who works within a trade where clearances actually have an impact, I completely agree. Most of all our allies, who we piggy back on with on everything equipment to software to TTPs, expect us to be diligent; diversity be damned.


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## Kilted (17 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> Soon enough we will get reports that the CF isn’t doing enough to recruit people period.


No we won't, that would imply that there was difficulty recruiting white people as well.


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## Kilted (17 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Bit of propaganda media rehashing, from two hours ago: Military failing to remove barriers to diversifying ranks: ombudsman
> 
> 
> Okay so should we be enrolling folks that can't even speak one of the two constitutional and working languages of the Forces?
> ...


I can't imagine how horrible that would be. I've worked with a few French guys who couldn't speak English and other people who could speak English but had an accent so thick that no one could understand them. Fortunately none of these experiences were on a live range or involved anything that could explode.


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## Quirky (17 May 2022)

Kilted said:


> No we won't, that would imply that there was difficulty recruiting white people as well.


When white people aren't joining, which they aren't now, you know you have REAL issues.


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## Humphrey Bogart (17 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> When white people aren't joining, which they aren't now, you know you have REAL issues.


I mean the organization has openly said they don't want them. 🤔


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## daftandbarmy (17 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean the organization has openly said they don't want them. 🤔



Just genuinely curious ... is that actually formally stated anywhere, or is it just an 'informal policy'?


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## Humphrey Bogart (17 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Just genuinely curious ... is that actually formally stated anywhere, or is it just an 'informal policy'?


It was definitely inferred from recent media statements.









						Want to boost military recruits? Diversity, cultural change are key: officials - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Members of the Canadian Forces are being called on to do more, including in eastern Europe amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Boosting recruitment is vital, said officials.




					globalnews.ca
				






> Seventy-one per cent of military members are white men compared with 39 per cent in the civilian workforce, added Maj.-Gen. Lise Bourgon.
> 
> “We can and we must do better to establish a more inclusive culture where we don’t have to change to fit in,” said Bourgon, deputy commander of Military Personnel Command.
> 
> “Diversity enhances readiness and in turn, our operational effectiveness.”



Then there is this article from Toronto Star:









						Too white and too male, Canadian Armed Forces are rethinking recruiting as staffing slides, senior officers say
					

“Culture change is a ‘must have,’ rather than a ‘nice to have,’ and not only for our current, but also for our future defence team members.”




					www.thestar.com


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## OldSolduer (17 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It was definitely inferred from recent media statements.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you white men when the next war comes along don’t join. Let the good idea fairies and the social engineers grab weapons and go. 
Social Justice warriors and climate change alarmists can go too


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## Humphrey Bogart (17 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> So you white men when the next war comes along don’t join. Let the good idea fairies and the social engineers grab weapons and go.
> Social Justice warriors and climate change alarmists can go too


The CAF really shouldn't be in the business of alienating anyone.  

The only thing they have succeeded in is alienating their largest recruiting base while also not succeeding in improving diversity.  So they haven't achieved any of their objectives, Bravo!

I am reminded of the old saying:









						To know what side your bread is buttered on definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
					

To know what side your bread is buttered on definition: If you say that someone knows what side their bread is buttered on , you mean that they... | Meaning, pronunciation, translations and examples




					www.collinsdictionary.com


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## Quirky (17 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Want to boost military recruits? Diversity, cultural change are key: officials - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Members of the Canadian Forces are being called on to do more, including in eastern Europe amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Boosting recruitment is vital, said officials.
> ...



"Diversity enhances readiness and in turn, our operational effectiveness.”

Riiiiight.


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## QV (17 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> "Diversity enhances readiness and in turn, our operational effectiveness.”
> 
> Riiiiight.


I tried to institute some diversity back in the day. My diverse beliefs that my American jacket liner was good kit, or that fleece jacket was outerwear was not shared by the CoC... and so I was punished and forced to wear the "jean jacket".


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## OldSolduer (17 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> "Diversity enhances readiness and in turn, our operational effectiveness.”
> 
> Riiiiight.


I am all for diversity as long as everyone is on the same page when it comes to the mission. 

There are far too many who think they are "special" when in reality a wooden block could replace them.


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## Jarnhamar (17 May 2022)

What the CAF needs to do is let people who fail PO checks in training pass anyways and just get the PO checks some time down the road at their unit.


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## Good2Golf (17 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> What the CAF needs to do is let people who fail PO checks in training pass anyways and just get the PO checks some time down the road at their unit.


…OFP is so arbitrary.  We could defer until they deploy as part of the ITDP*


*In-Theatre DAG Process


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## Booter (17 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …OFP is so arbitrary.  We could defer until they deploy as part of the ITDP*
> 
> 
> *In-Theatre DAG Process


If we ever want to be as effective a fighting force as the Russians we need to be following their lead on this. Four days training. “Parking brake is here”


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## Humphrey Bogart (17 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …OFP is so arbitrary.  We could defer until they deploy as part of the ITDP*
> 
> 
> *In-Theatre DAG Process


I mean I looked for the ref one time on what OFP in the Navy meant?

They pointed me to a policy with a number and everything.  I then asked where said policy was written as I wanted to have a read of it...

"Oh we haven't written or published it yet"

Me:  "so it's complete made up?  Got it!"

🤣🤣🤣


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## Eye In The Sky (17 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> "Diversity enhances readiness and in turn, our operational effectiveness.”
> 
> Riiiiight.



Those kind of sentences make me grit my teeth.


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## Jarnhamar (17 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Those kind of sentences make me grit my teeth.


I'm a huge believer in diversity and think the GBA+ type training (NATO JADL, not that joke on DLN) is important. But not if we're stupid about it.

I seen a vital, super important piece of training cut out of work up training that was supposed to be a requirement for deployment. Not enough time. 

GBA +? If you didn't have it you weren't deploying, period.


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## TacticalTea (18 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean I looked for the ref one time on what OFP in the Navy meant?
> 
> They pointed me to a policy with a number and everything.  I then asked where said policy was written as I wanted to have a read of it...
> 
> ...


Typical.

Two years ago the pub that stated promotion requirements for reserve naval officers was rescinded without replacement.

All of a sudden, dozens of otherwise unqualified JOs were promoted, as they had magically achieved OFP.


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## TacticalTea (18 May 2022)

Here's another one: the pub defining a naval C7 famil shoot was also simply deleted while still referenced  by the pub that mandates them every 2 years.

They sent me to run a range as RSO. I asked about it, they just said "oh just do what we used to do".

Uhhhh no. We have a whole CF Operational Shooting Programme, why would the navy do differently on the basis of a pub that doesn't even exist anymore? So I just went ahead and used an existing PWT.


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## CountDC (18 May 2022)

I belief that the naval C7 is still PWT1 unless a member of the boarding party.


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## daftandbarmy (18 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Typical.
> 
> Two years ago the pub that stated promotion requirements for reserve naval officers was rescinded without replacement.
> 
> All of a sudden, dozens of otherwise unqualified JOs were promoted, as they had magically achieved OFP.


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## TacticalTea (18 May 2022)

CountDC said:


> I belief that the naval C7 is still PWT1 unless a member of the boarding party.


I think that's right but don't quote on me on that, it's been some time.


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## Humphrey Bogart (18 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Here's another one: the pub defining a naval C7 famil shoot was also simply deleted while still referenced  by the pub that mandates them every 2 years.
> 
> They sent me to run a range as RSO. I asked about it, they just said "oh just do what we used to do".
> 
> Uhhhh no. We have a whole CF Operational Shooting Programme, why would the navy do differently on the basis of a pub that doesn't even exist anymore? So I just went ahead and used an existing PWT.


The Navy is legit just making it up at this point.  One of the reasons is due to them running out of sailors, none of that necessary corporate governance and administration is getting done because all of the positions have been reallocated to fill sea billets.


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## Booter (18 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The Navy is legit just making it up at this point.  One of the reasons is due to them running out of sailors, none of that necessary corporate governance and administration is getting done because all of the positions have been reallocated to fill sea billets.


But when will we actually say out loud that we aren’t staffed to hit our missions- especially 2 years out ( at the rate we re going)

It’s like- our senior leaders across the board are so bankrupt that even if by some miracle one showed up and was honest- they’d just replace them immediately with one of the legion of gravy boat drinking, bagless, say “yes” for another rank waiting in the wings.

Like it’s a literal shell game with everyone talking out both sides of their mouthes.


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## Navy_Pete (19 May 2022)

Booter said:


> But when will we actually say out loud that we aren’t staffed to hit our missions- especially 2 years out ( at the rate we re going)



3-5 years ago (at the working level)

At the BGH level, sometime between the Nerth of Smarch and never.


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## dapaterson (19 May 2022)

Failure to give sufficient time in the ditch to do necessary maintenance and repairs, to say nothing of upgrades, means the RCN may have to slow down once a FFH investigates the bottom of the Atlantic.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Aug 2022)

This rings too true, sadly:


"the reason many interventions nevertheless remain popular is a hidden motive: that they are used not to reduce discrimination, but to shield against litigation."


Workplace diversity programmes often fail, or backfire​Many may do more to protect against litigation than to reduce discrimination​Aug 25th 2022

Diversity and anti-harassment training is a booming industry. International company surveys suggests the number of people hired for jobs with “diversity” or “inclusion” in the title has more than quadrupled since 2010. Attempts to reduce discrimination and harassment in the workplace are laudable, and make good business sense. But only if they work.

Unfortunately, the consensus now emerging among academics is that many anti-discrimination policies have no effect. What is worse, they often backfire. Some among them suspect the reason many interventions nevertheless remain popular is a hidden motive: that they are used not to reduce discrimination, but to shield against litigation.

Successful anti-discrimination programmes should, for instance, help make firms’ management less male and pale. For a forthcoming book, Frank Dobbin and Alexandra Kalev tested this proposition. They collected data on anti-discrimination training programmes and targeted grievance procedures at 829 American companies implemented from 1971 to 2002, and how they affected the representation of ethnic groups and genders in management up to 2015. They found that most did the opposite of what one might expect. On average, 20 years after these interventions were introduced, the group that benefited most were white men.

What about the short-term? One large experiment compared the effects of eight one-time interventions to reduce unintentional biases, such as reading a vivid story with a black hero and a white villain. Among 6,321 non-black Americans, all reduced implicit bias favouring white over black people immediately after. But when retested one to five days later, the effects of all interventions had faded. Statistically speaking, the effects of all but one were nil.

Yet some programmes worked well. Mr Dobbin and Ms Kalev found that cultural-inclusion training, with an emphasis on how managers could increase their teams’ productivity with a more varied crew, was linked with greater diversity among higher-ups later on. Targeted recruitment, mentor programmes, and cross-training between groups, were also found to help.

This is in line with a recent study by Oriane Georgeac and Aneeta Rattan, who found that atypical candidates feel less likely to be included when given a company statement with a business case for diversity instead of one with a simpler acknowledgment of its importance. They suggest explicit rationales make some suspect they will be judged based on stereotypes—rather than how they do their job.

You can forgive firms their initial eagerness to implement programmes of unproven effectiveness. In global surveys, 75% of them now say diversity is a stated value or priority. But if they mean what they say, such firms should now be shifting resources, away from programmes that do not work (or worse) and towards those that do.

But it could be, at least in America, that the courts will need to move first. Many employers may be motivated to institute diversity policies less by productivity or morality than by legal liability. In a study of 1,188 federal civil-rights opinions decided between 1965 and 2014, Lauren Edelman, a researcher, found that judges increasingly considered such practices evidence of compliance with civil-rights laws, regardless of effectiveness. If judges start paying more attention to which programmes work, it may force firms to do so too.■

_Sources: “Getting to diversity”, by F. Dobbin and A. Kalev, Harvard University Press, 2022; “Reducing implicit racial preferences”, by C.K. Lai et al., Journal of Experimental Psychology, 2016; ZoomInfo_


Workplace diversity programmes often fail, or backfire


----------

