# Wearing of GCS & GSM



## JSR OP (30 Sep 2008)

Hey all
I've tried looking for the answer to this question, but I haven't been able to find anything...(yes I have done a search, before anyone asks...)

I have been awarded both the General Service Medal, and the General Campaign Star.  The GSM for tour in '04 in CM, and the GCS for tour at KPRT in '07.  Both were Op Athena.

It has been mentioned to me no less than three times that I should not be wearing both.  Once on Remembrance Day, and a couple of other times while on course.   I have asked my CoC about this, and I am told that there was some confusion when these medals initially came out, and that it is perfectly OK to wear both.

Have any of you out there had the same issue?  

I'd like to have a source to quote the next time I am questioned on this matter besides "My SSM said I could"

Does anyone know of a quoteable source for said issue?


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## kratz (30 Sep 2008)

This DHH chart of medals is current and the discriptions of the GCS and GSM appear to allow for both to be worn. It's a starting place for the search.


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## from darkness lite (30 Sep 2008)

From DHH:

WEARING

The GSM shall be worn in the sequence prescribed in the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, and in the following manner:

On the left breast, suspended from the ribbon described above, *between the General Campaign Star and the Special Service Medal*;

So yes, you can wear both

FDL


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## Niteshade (30 Sep 2008)

kratz said:
			
		

> This DHH chart of medals is current and the discriptions of the GCS and GSM appear to allow for both to be worn. It's a starting place for the search.



Link is not working correctly...

comes back with:





which links to:





Nites


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## Chanada (30 Sep 2008)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhr-ddhr/publications/pdf/MedalsNEWS_110107.pdf

Note the DH&R newsletter link on the CMP site says only one of either GCS/GSM can be worn with the ISAF bar...I know it is a source of some discussion but that appears to be the current regulation.


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## JSR OP (30 Sep 2008)

Hmmm...

Thanks for the link.  I'll see if I can find anything newer.  things may have changed with the year that it was published...
Not looking too good though is it? :-[


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## PMedMoe (30 Sep 2008)

Getting the same error message with the second link.   ???


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## The_Falcon (30 Sep 2008)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> Hmmm...
> 
> Thanks for the link.  I'll see if I can find anything newer.  things may have changed with the year that it was published...
> Not looking too good though is it? :-[



It seems to me you can wear both, but you have to pick which one gets the ISAF Bar


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## kratz (30 Sep 2008)

That is the third CF/DND link in the past two days that has shown up as an attacked link. I have no problem accessing it from home. The web chart was last updated 29 April 2008, so the information is current to this year and even shows the VC.

Due to the link issues, here is the cut and paste for the GCS and GSM sections for wearing the medals:



> WEARING
> 
> The GCS shall be worn in the sequence prescribed in the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, and in the following manner:
> 
> ...



and



> WEARING
> 
> The GSM shall be worn in the sequence prescribed in the Canadian Orders, Decorations and Medals Directive, and in the following manner:
> 
> ...


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## JSR OP (30 Sep 2008)

I'm going to call the 1 800 number on the MedalsNews newsletter tomorrow to get the answer.

Does no one else have this issue?  It can't just be me....  Or could it?

I'll let you all know how the call goes.


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## George Wallace (30 Sep 2008)

Niteshade said:
			
		

> Link is not working correctly...
> 
> comes back with:
> 
> ...



Just out of curiosity; are you running MS Antivirus 2008?  It is malicious software that a rogue group of hackers set up to look legitimate, and it not only slows down your PC, but sends data as to what you surf, off to their site.  It is notorious for "pop ups" advertising anti-virus and spyware software for sale.


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> I'm going to call the 1 800 number on the MedalsNews newsletter tomorrow to get the answer.
> 
> Does no one else have this issue?  It can't just be me....  Or could it?
> 
> I'll let you all know how the call goes.



The medals chart put out by DHH and it's order of wear is current and accurate.

If you have been awarded both medals for tours under the seperate mandates listed in their criteria (even IF both are with ISAF bars) - you are entitled to wear both. 

Personnel who got the GCM due to being deployed in CM, who have subsequently served in TFA and earned the GCS ... wear both. They are entitled to. They are in recognition of SEPERATE tours/mandates to mission.

Just as those who recd the SWASM/GCS for the tour that covered the move from Kabul to KAF and switched mandates can wear both of theirs.


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## Sig_Des (30 Sep 2008)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> It can't just be me....  Or could it?



Definitely not you. Been the object of a lot of heated debate, and what I've always seen is you wear one of them.

We actually had a WO, now at the school, told he had to hand in his GSM to be able to get his GCS, if I recall correctly.

I believe one of the guys at the C&E museum is actually appealing that to DH & R, or was at least talking about it.


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Definitely not you. Been the object of a lot of heated debate, and what I've always seen is you wear one of them.
> 
> We actually had a WO, now at the school, told he had to hand in his GSM to be able to get his GCS, if I recall correctly.
> 
> I believe one of the guys at the C&E museum is actually appealing that to DH & R.



Interesting statement that.

We've got troops wearing both here ... both awarded for seperate tours and seperate mandates.


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## Pelorus (30 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity; are you running MS Antivirus 2008?  It is malicious software that a rogue group of hackers set up to look legitimate, and it not only slows down your PC, but sends data as to what you surf, off to their site.  It is notorious for "pop ups" advertising anti-virus and spyware software for sale.



I am not running said anti-virus, but I am also receiving the website warning.  I believe Firefox is the one issuing it.  Very strange.


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## Sig_Des (30 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Interesting statement that.
> 
> We've got troops wearing both here ... both awarded for seperate tours and seperate mandates.



Not saying it was right or wrong, not saying I saw it with my own eyes. Saying the WO told us that's what's happened.

Either way, it's something I do know we have discussed, and many who were awarded both, were told to wear only one.


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## George Wallace (30 Sep 2008)

boot12 said:
			
		

> I am not running said anti-virus, but I am also receiving the website warning.  I believe Firefox is the one issuing it.  Very strange.



I was just curious.  The site opened up just fine with IE7 on my Vista machine.  I just heard of this Malware today, and am checking all my machines, as there seems to be a lot of slowdowns in service lately.  May still bear looking into, as I can't see a DND site being accused of stealing your information or taking over your computer to attack others.  Someone (Hacker) has created a fine "conspiracy theory"


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## PuckChaser (30 Sep 2008)

The website warning happens with Firefox 3.0, its the malware blocker. Just click "Ignore this warning" on the bottom right of the screen.


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Not saying it was right or wrong, not saying I saw it with my own eyes. Saying the WO told us that's what's happened.
> 
> Either way, it's something I do know we have discussed, and many who were awarded both, were told to wear only one.



No, I get it. I was just saying that it hasn't seemed to be an issue around these parts. Someone is obviously going to have to set out some clear direction --- if (some of) the CF is telling people to "choose one", but the DHH site shows an obvious entitlement to wear both - as awarded and even notes their placement while worn at the same time.

I did think that medals and their wear were a DHH responsibility, but it would seem that some people in the CF are overruling what DHH has laid out. I wonder what their grounds are for that?


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## Swingline1984 (30 Sep 2008)

JSR Op,

The Canadian medals system does not allow an individual to have two medals for the same mission i.e. ISAF.  This is the same reason you cannot be awarded and wear the NATO Afghanistan medal.  When you received your GCS you should have turned in your GSM as the former, technically speaking, is an "upgrade".  As of now the only way you can keep, and wear, your GSM is if you were also awarded the Op Allied Force bar for support to the bombing campaign in Kosovo.  This eligibilty criteria can be found in the Canada Gazette Vol. 138, No. 31 Para 11 (2) http://gazetteducanada.gc.ca/partI/2004/20040731/html/decret-e.html and was previously covered in the following thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/70908.15

Cheers,


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## smale436 (30 Sep 2008)

God help anyone who gets that MS Antivirus in their computer. It took me (on the advice of a computer savvy friend who works in IT) 90 minutes to install and run 4 different removal programs to get rid of it (hopefully). I first started getting the pop-ups every 8-10 minutes and it eventually became every 45 seconds with several at a time taking over the whole screen.


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> JSR Op,
> 
> The Canadian medals system does not allow an individual to have two medals for the same mission i.e. ISAF.  This is the same reason you cannot be awarded and wear the NATO Afghanistan medal.  When you received your GCS you should have turned in your GSM as the former, technically speaking, is an "upgrade".  As of now the only way you can keep, and wear, your GSM is if you were also awarded the Op Allied Force bar for support to the bombing campaign in Kosovo.  This eligibilty criteria can be found in the Canada Gazette Vol. 138, No. 31 Para 11 (2) http://gazetteducanada.gc.ca/partI/2004/20040731/html/decret-e.html and was previously covered in the following thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/70908.15
> 
> Cheers,



Not true for missions with different mandates which occur in different AORs.

Witness a tour in CM (outside of ISAF) earning the GCM, followed by another tour in KAF which earns the GCS. Two mandates, two seperate tours, two medals earned - both for different things under different mission mandates.

Likewise the folks who recd the GCS and the SWASM for ONE roto, but a roto which witnessed a change in mandate and a move from kabul to KAF. They can wear both medals as awarded.


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## George Wallace (30 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I did think that medals and their wear were a DHH responsibility, but it would seem that some people in the CF are overruling what DHH has laid out. I wonder what their grounds are for that?



One of two reasons (sometimes on rare occasions, the combination of both); a person "power tripping" or just "anal retentive".


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> One of two reasons (sometimes on rare occasions, the combination of both); a person "power tripping" or just "anal retentive".



Exactly. Honours and awards are controlled by DHH - that's their mandate and realm. DHH sets out the precendence for order of wear ... and that precedence includes the order of wear when a person is wearing both. Seems to me that DHH allows both to be worn.

What's up with the CF --- where are those "some people" getting the direction to order one down?? Obviously not from DHH under whose auspices Honours & Awards fall.


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## Swingline1984 (30 Sep 2008)

Respectfully Army Vern, you are wrong, and if anyone is wearing two medals both with the ISAF bar they are also wrong.  The mission may have changed but the Op is the same, mandate means nothing.  The award of the the GCS is for support to ISAF (thus the bar reading ISAF) within the theater of operation (AOR Afghanistan) or for Op Allied Force, Kosovo "period".  If you were, or are, under Op Apollo you get the SWASM.

Cheers,


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> Respectively Army Vern, you are wrong, and if anyone is wearing two medals both with the ISAF bar they are also wrong.  The mission may have changed but the Op is the same, mandate means nothing.  The award of the the GCS is for support to ISAF (thus the bar reading ISAF) within the theater of operation (AOR Afghanistan) or for Op Allied Force, Kosovo "period".  If you were, or are, under Op Apollo you get the SWASM.
> 
> Cheers,



Respectfully,

DHH _must_ be wrong. Their site clearly indicates that both can be worn. When was their authority regarding their being the "Overseers" of Honours & Awards removed from their mandate?

Pers are still serving under OEF - they STILL get the SWASM. Op Apollo has squat to do with it.

And, apparently you are unawares that pers serving in CM support many more missions than Op Athena.


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## Swingline1984 (30 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Respectfully,
> 
> DHH _must_ be wrong. Their site clearly indicates that both can be worn. When was their authority regarding their being the "Overseers" of Honours & Awards removed from their mandate?
> 
> Pers are still serving under OEF - they STILL get the SWASM. Op Apollo has squat to do with it.



Sigh...its all semantics, I'm sure you knew what I was getting at ref Apollo.  Medals may be "administered" by DHR but are created by an order in council along with the rules that govern their issue.  But, lets wait for JSR Ops answer from DHR and perhaps I'll find out that I'm not as smart as I think I am, or perhaps, you'll owe me a beer.  Also, DHH no longer handles the medals, they are now under the auspices of the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DHR) but I digress, once again it comes down to semantics.

Cheers,


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> Sigh...its all semantics, I'm sure you knew what I was getting at ref Apollo.  Medals may be "administered" by DHR but are created by an order in council along with the rules that govern their issue.  But, lets wait for JSR Ops answer from DHR and perhaps I'll find out that I'm not as smart as I think I am, or perhaps, you'll owe me a beer.  Also, DHH no longer handles the medals, they are now under the auspices of the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DHR) but I digress, once again it comes down to semantics.
> 
> Cheers,



You should reread my post that set you off again. I was speaking to CM personnel.

Earned the GCM and were NOT associated with ISAF. THEN deploy on a second tour into KAF as part of ISAF earning the GCS with bar. TWO seperate medals, two seperate missions, two seperate deployments, two different mandates.

Who is making them take down the GCM? It isn't double recognition. TWO seperate tours, one under ISAF - one not - two seperate medals ... and according to DHH precedence, they can wear them both.

DHH = DHR (<--- now, there's semantics) - Whoopppee: just another acronym change in Ottawa they neglected to tell anyone about. 

So, when did *DHR* lose their mandate to Administer Honours and Awards on behalf of the Governor General and when did the CF take over? I'm still curious. I wouldn't consider loss of their "authority to administer" and handing it over to the CF to be semantics. Can anyone answer this? You'll note that many many medals are not military related.


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## Swingline1984 (30 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Who is making them take down the GCM? It isn't double recognition. TWO seperate tours, one under ISAF - one not - two seperate medals ... and according to DHH precedence, they can wear them both.



Sorry can't keep my mouth shut  ;D What you are describing is two separate tours but only ONE operation i.e. ISAF.  If the bar says "ISAF" it fell under ISAF.  Canada precludes the award of two medals for one Op etc. etc. ad nauseam.  This is actually stated in the FAQ "Canada's national honours policy prohibits the wear of more than one medal for the same service" it is stated in answer to a question with regards to the wearing of the Saudi Arabian medal but holds the same weight if wearing two medals for ISAF.  Of course adding this particular example we are discussing to the FAQ would help support my (or your) argument  I would love to keep talking but am exhausted waiting for this damn dial-up to post my comments, so I bid you all a good night. 

Cheers,


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## George Wallace (30 Sep 2008)

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> Sorry can't keep my mouth shut  ;D What you are describing is two separate tours but only ONE operation i.e. ISAF.  If the bar says "ISAF" it fell under ISAF.  Canada precludes the award of two medals for one Op etc. etc. ad nauseam.  This is actually stated in the FAQ "Canada's national honours policy prohibits the wear of more than one medal for the same service" it is stated in answer to a question with regards to the wearing of the Saudi Arabian medal but holds the same weight if wearing two medals for ISAF.  Of course adding this particular example we are discussing to the FAQ would help support my (or your) argument  I would love to keep talking but am exhausted waiting for this damn dial-up to post my comments, so I bid you all a good night.
> 
> Cheers,



OK

If I have this correct, you can only wear the ISAF Bar on one of the medals, not both; so your argument has overlooked that fact and is flawed.


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

GSM: Awarded for providing "*support to* an operation - not necessarily in the AOR" (and CM pers support more operations than "just" ISAF Ops from their location).

GCS: Awarded for "taking part *IN* an operation within the AOR".

Seems to me to be two totally different sets of criteria. One for supporting an operation, one for being "part of" an operation.


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## aesop081 (30 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> criteria.



My God....be careful how you use that word.

 ;D


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## armyvern (30 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> My God....be careful how you use that word.
> 
> ;D



Yes dear. 

 >


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## the 48th regulator (30 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> My God....be careful how you use that word.
> 
> ;D




You rang?







dileas

tess


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## Blackadder1916 (30 Sep 2008)

The link to the pdf file of the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) Nov 07 newsletter that dealt with this issue was previously posted.   http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhr-ddhr/publications/pdf/MedalsNEWS_110107.pdf

However, to quote from it:



> GCS with ISAF bar (military personnel only – 30 days)
> 
> • Kandahar, Afghanistan under OP ATHENA including:
> • Canadian Task Force (CA TF)
> ...


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## Swingline1984 (1 Oct 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If a person qualifies for both the GCS and the GSM with ISAF bar, the person may only receive the higher award, which is the GCS. If a recipient of the GSM subsequently qualifies for GCS, the GSM must be forfeited for the GCS to be issued.



I've been racking my brain (relatively small place mind you) thinking of where I had seen that reference in writing before, other than orders in council.  Thanks, you have saved my sanity.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> OK
> 
> If I have this correct, you can only wear the ISAF Bar on one of the medals, not both; so your argument has overlooked that fact and is flawed.



The bar and the medal are one and the same as it denotes the mission it was awarded for;  both GSM and GCS can have the ISAF bar just not both at the same time on the same uniform.  If you are not awarded either the ISAF or the Op Allied Force bar you will not be awarded the medal (unless they add another Op at a later date).

Cheers,


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## Niteshade (1 Oct 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity; are you running MS Antivirus 2008?  It is malicious software that a rogue group of hackers set up to look legitimate, and it not only slows down your PC, but sends data as to what you surf, off to their site.  It is notorious for "pop ups" advertising anti-virus and spyware software for sale.



Nope, I am running Firefox with Ad Aware 8.0. I try to avoid using Microsoft software as much as possible. I am stuck using their OS due to ease of use/other software support.

Nites


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## willy (1 Oct 2008)

Well if DH&R wants my GSM back then they can come and take it from me.

My understanding is that tour medals and other such forms of recognition exist to provide a bit of an "atta boy" style boost to morale.  This asinine policy does nothing to further the morale of those who have served honourably in both CM and Afghanistan proper, and who, IMHO, should be entitled to proudly wear both medals they have been issued.

Edit: spelling.


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## gate_guard (1 Oct 2008)

> One may only count time towards one medal for the same service. One who qualifies for the GCS cannot earn the SWASM for the same service and vice versa. If a person qualifies for both the GCS and the GSM with ISAF bar, the person may only receive the higher award, which is the GCS.If a recipient of the GSM subsequently qualifies for GCS, the GSM must be forfeited for the GCS to be issued.



IMO this could be interpreted two different ways:

-Pte Smith does a tour in CM, 3 months in he is transferred to KAF and completes his tour. He initially qualified for the GSM but then qualified for the GCS. Is he entitled to both at this point? I would think not. He gets the GCS and that's it.

OR (as in Willy's case)

-Pte Smith does a tour in CM, gets GSM.
-Pte Smith does another tour in KAF, gets a GCS. Two completely different tours thus he wears both.

Again, it comes down to semantics and how you interpret the wording. In this case he earned them both so let him wear both.


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## John Nayduk (1 Oct 2008)

Canada hasn't really been consistant with the medals.  Take the rule that you only get one medal per tour/duty/war yet the WW2 and Korea vets have more for the same war.  I know, I know, they are war vets but what do you think is going on in Afghanistan.  The point being that the WW2 guys get a campaign star for the theater they served in (and usually the 1939-45 star is among them), they also get the Defence medal (if they went over before D-Day), the Canadian Volunteer Service medal and the 1939-45 Medal.  Most WW2 vets have at least 5 (2 stars and three medals).  The Korea vets have the Canadian Korea War medal, the U.N. medal for Korea and recently, the Korea Volunteer Service medal.  
Now, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have what they have, the point that I'm trying to make is to prevent a guy from wearing the GSM for a tour in CM if he later serves in Afghanistan and gets the GCS seems very inconsistent with past practice (and kinds of shity if you ask me).  
Also, in WW1 and WW2, the campaign stars were higher in the order of precedence than the war service medal(s).  It looks like we have reversed this for the GCS and the SWASM.  Could we not (and boy I can't wait to get flamed on this) award the SWASM for serving in South West Asia (Afghanistan) and the GCS for serving in the ISAF campaign against the insurgents (and why nor a bar for OEF)?  At least it would be more consistent with past practice.


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## PuckChaser (1 Oct 2008)

gate_guard said:
			
		

> -Pte Smith does a tour in CM, 3 months in he is transferred to KAF and completes his tour. He initially qualified for the GSM but then qualified for the GCS. Is he entitled to both at this point? I would think not. He gets the GCS and that's it.



That'd be like the guys that got the 2 medals since they were involved in the K to K move... Same tour, same country, just different parts that qualify for 2 medals. Now it was a SWASM and a GCS, but I believe the principle is the same.


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## PMedMoe (1 Oct 2008)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That'd be like the guys that got the 2 medals since they were involved in the K to K move... Same tour, same country, just different parts that qualify for 2 medals. Now it was a SWASM and a GCS, but I believe the principle is the same.



At the time (as I understood it) we received both medals as the tour in Kabul was under ISAF but the remainder of the tour in Kandahar fell under OEF.  If you look at the link in Blackadder's post, it clearly states:



> Medals eligibility is based on nature of the service and chain of command. There are currently two main groups in South-West Asia:
> 
> 1. All those serving under the NATO-led ISAF qualify for the ISAF bar either the General Campaign Star (GCS) or General Service Medal (GSM); and
> 
> 2. All others, serving with the wider campaign against terrorism (OP ENDURING FREEDOM), qualify for the South-West Asia Service Medal (SWASM).



I agree with the others who are saying that if Pte Bloggins got a GCM for service in CM and then did another tour for which he received the GCS, he should be entitled to wear both.


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## Swingline1984 (1 Oct 2008)

You all have your opinions, unfortunately the ground truth is that you cannot wear both.  If you are wearing both for the same Op i.e. ISAF, and since it seems no one is policing the issue, it is up to you to be honest and take your GSM down.  If I were to go with your arguments above what is to stop me from putting up 3 SWASMs (other than the Sgt Major and good taste)?  I have been in the AOR 3 times with 3 different missions and with 3 different mandates.  The GCS and the GSM are basically the same medal, only one is awarded for being in the AOR, while the other is for direct support to the mission.  It seems to me that those who are arguing the most vehemently just want to maintain their medal count.  It's not about the jewelery folks! but, I imagine most of you know that.

Cheers,


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## JSR OP (1 Oct 2008)

I emailed an MWO at  DHR and got the response I didn't want to read...  Looks like I will have to take down my GSM.
If anyone wants to see the attachment, PM me and I'll send it to you.


Here is the email chain:

Good day MCpl,

	Below you will find the references and the explanation for not being authorized to "Wear" both the GCS and GSM for the same Operation. 

Refs: A. General Campaign Star and General Service Medal Regulations (attached)
B. CANFORGEN 092/04 dated 7 July 04
C. CANFORGEN 094/04 dated 7 July 04


Canadian Honours Policy precludes dual recognition so one cannot wear two medals for the same mission/op. Notwithstanding the fact that we differentiate between sp (GSM) and svc in theatre (GCS), it remains svc with the same op, in this case with ISAF. Both svc at CM and in theatre (again since 31 Jul 06) are with ISAF. The Cdn op names are quite irrelevant in these matters. Our medals recognize "participation in" an op/mission so if a person served both in sp and in theatre for the same mission, the GCS recognizes all that person's participation in the op. Issuing two medals for svc with the same op would contravene Canadian policy and the Order in Council and would therefore be illegal. Fol the same logic, it would be very strange and quite illogical for a member to wear two medals for one tour in sp and one tour in theatre while pers who have served two or more tours in theatre can only wear the GCS, the member would have more medals for having been less exposed.

Service creditable toward the General Campaign Star (GCS) takes precedence over service creditable toward General Service Medal (GSM), and IAW Ref A, Para 11(2) and Ref B para 8, a member may not be awarded both medals for service on the same operation.

Where a member qualifies for award of GCS subsequent to being presented the GSM for the same operation (read with the same bar), he/she is required to relinquish the GSM before auth to wear GCS shall be granted.  For pers in theatre, we have an arrangement by which we issue GCS for presentation in theatre but the GCS/GSM desk clerk at the same time advises the home unit that upon return, the mbr shall return the GSM and then should be followed up DH&R to ensure this is done.




 -----Original Message-----
From: 	@CMP DH&R@Ottawa-Hull  
Sent:	Wednesday, 01 October, 2008 10:22
To:	@CMP DH&R@Ottawa-Hull
Subject:	FW: GSM & GCS Issue




	Please answer the MCpl's question on policy.  Also it might be wise to contact the CFJSR RSM and explain the policy to him.  I have a feeling many soldiers at the CFJSR are wearing both the GSM and GCS.



 -----Original Message-----
From: 	@CFJSR RHQ@Kingston  
Sent:	Wednesday, 01 October, 2008 09:57
To:	@CMP DH&R@Ottawa-Hull
Subject:	GSM & GCS Issue

Good morning Sir.

I wanted to inquire about an issue that has come up on various occasions since my return from Afghanistan. 

I was on tour in Camp Mirage on Op Athena Roto 3 in '04, and was awarded the GSM with ISAF bar.  In '07 I was at the KPRT on Op Athena Roto 4 where I was awarded the GCS with ISAF bar.  I proudly wear both.

Within the last year, Once on Remembrance Day and a few times on course, I have been questioned no less than three times why I was wearing both.  I have been told that I should have surrendered the GSM prior to receiving the GCS, and have been told stories of other personnel who had to do this.  I have raised the question with various personnel within my CoC, and have been told that I could wear them both, and in the past there was some confusion with the initial documentation, but all that was sorted out now.  I have not seen any documentation support my CoC's position, in fact, all documentation I have found points in the other direction.

Well the issue has risen again, and I would like to have a definitive answer one way or the other.

I would appreciate your assistance in this matter.


MCpl

Canadian Forces Joint Signal Regiment
CSN: 
Commercial: 613-541-5010
Email: @forces.gc.ca


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## MG34 (1 Oct 2008)

Oh no...  it is all about the medals.....and the tour pay...and the HLTA...and killing terrorists..mom, apple pie and country have no place in it at all.


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## The_Falcon (1 Oct 2008)

> Canadian Honours Policy precludes dual recognition so one cannot wear *two medals for the same mission/op*.



Hmmmm, what about the CPSM?  Isn't that medal a direct contradiction of that policy (I know the matter was discussed when it first came out, but since it is related to this discussion, I thought I would bring it up).


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## gate_guard (1 Oct 2008)

I can't say I agree with DHR but it does make sense. It isn't about medal hoarding (I wear the "2 fer 1" NATO/CPSM on my chest and think it's kind of ridiculous when I explain to people that I got both for the same tour) but recognizing service. As I understood it, the CPSM was in recognition of all UN peacekeepers receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988. Well I was under a NATO mandate, not UN, so figure that one out.

WRT GCS/GSM, I think they should at least be awarding numerals as per NATO medals. Kinda odd for some guy who's done three tours to KAF only wearing one medal on his chest.


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## George Wallace (1 Oct 2008)

gate_guard said:
			
		

> I can't say I agree with DHR but it does make sense. It isn't about medal hoarding (I wear the "2 fer 1" NATO/CPSM on my chest and think it's kind of ridiculous when I explain to people that I got both for the same tour) but recognizing service. As I understood it, the CPSM was in recognition of all UN peacekeepers receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988. Well I was under a NATO mandate, not UN, so figure that one out.
> 
> WRT GCS/GSM, I think they should at least be awarding numerals as per NATO medals. Kinda odd for some guy who's done three tours to KAF only wearing one medal on his chest.



Interesting.  I was under the impression that IFOR, SFOR and KFOR were not entitled to the CPSM.

However........ If you had a UN Tour (anywhere) prior to those NATO Tours, you would still get the CPSM.  You may have thought that you got it for a NATO Tour, but it was for a previous UN Tour that you may have been on.  As I don't know what you have in that regards, I can only guess.


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## from darkness lite (1 Oct 2008)

_Interesting.  I was under the impression that IFOR, SFOR and KFOR were not entitled to the CPSM._

From the DHH site - Missions eligible for CPSM

KFOR/NATO [Multinational peace force - Kosovo (KFOR)] (Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) (December 1998 - April 1999) [Op KINETIC]

SFOR/NATO [Stabilization Force in Bosnia-Herzegovina] (12 January 1996 - ) [Op PALLADIUM, Op JOINT GUARD (NATO designation replaced by Op JOINT FORCE), Op JOINT FORCE (NATO designation for SFOR), Op JOINT FORGE, Op PERCHERON, Op MONARCH, Op BRONZE] 

IFOR/NATO [Implementation Force] Balkans (20 December 1995 - 1996) [Op ALLIANCE- Op RESOLUTE] 

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dhr-ddhr/chart/eng/eligibility/cpsm_eligible_e.asp

cheers, FDL


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## George Wallace (1 Oct 2008)

When in doubt, check the DHH site links.   ;D


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## Blackadder1916 (1 Oct 2008)

gate_guard said:
			
		

> . . .  As I understood it, the CPSM was in recognition of all UN peacekeepers receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988. Well I was under a NATO mandate, not UN, so figure that one out.



While the Nobel Peace Prize in 1988 may have been an impetus for development of the CPSM, its creation can be traced just as much as a follow-up to the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal for Korea (CVSMK) which in turn has some ancestry (justification) in the Canadian Volunteer Service Medal which was created and issued during WW2. A major part of the argument for the CVSMK (which was authorized in 1991) was that the medals awarded for Korean service were all from an entity other than this country (i.e. UN or Commonwealth/British), none were uniquely Canadian so the argument was that "Canada" had not recognized the service of its citizens in that conflict.  The same argument was used for the CPSM;  the medals awarded for UN and NATO peacekeeping tours (and of a few other organizations) were developed and issued by those organizations, not by Canada.  The CPSM is Canada's recognition for those tours plus other odd bits of accumulated service that did not meet the criteria for any other medal.


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## John Nayduk (2 Oct 2008)

While the Korea War medal is of British/Commonwealth design, it is unique in that it has the word "Canada" on the reverse bottom of the medal.  
I think we need someone to take a look at the medals in Canada and come up something a little more consistant with our history.


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