# Discovering who was responsible for my Uncle's death in 1943



## jollyjacktar (18 Oct 2015)

Funny the things you discover via the internet.  

As it states, my avatar is my uncle, Walter Buckwell, who was shot down and killed while flying with 419 Sqn RCAF, in May of 1943.  I was led to the Wikki page on the Luftwaffe nightfigher ace, HerIbert Lutje, who was credited with the kill of Uncle Walt and his crew.  I don't have any animosity towards Lutje as he, like Uncle Walt, were just doing their job albeit on opposite sides.  Having spent time in the sandbox, I am a firm believer that when your numbers up, it's up.  Nevertheless, it was surreal seeing the man responsible for bringing Uncle Walt's life and those of his fallen crew to their final rest in Holland and breaking my Grannie's heart.  Seeing as Nov 11 is swiftly approaching, my thoughts turn to men such as these.   

http://www.419squadronbewarethemoose.com/JD113.html

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lutje.html


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## mariomike (18 Oct 2015)

The chance of survival in Bomber Command was comparable to the German U-boat service.

"The pitiful prospects of surviving a tour of bomber operations were only matched in hazard on either side by the German U-boat crews."
Sir Max Hastings in the forward of his book, "Bomber Command".


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## Loachman (19 Oct 2015)

My Uncle Bobby, my father's older brother, was killed by the Japanese in Burma on 20 May 1944 while serving with the Chindits.

I know even less about his demise.

I bear no ill-will against the Japanese, though.

I have my Grandfather's medals - he was a Merchant Marine ASDIC (SONAR) Operator on a Q-Ship during the First World War - but my Grandmother was so upset at the loss of her older boy that she threw his medals, and all other military records, out.

I'd dearly love to have those now


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Luftwaffe nightfigher ace, HerIbert Lutje,
> http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lutje.html



Looks like he had a busy night, 
"Lütje was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes) on 1 June 1943 after he had shot down six British and Canadian bombers (aerial victories 23–28) on the night of 13 May 1943."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_L%C3%BCtje#Military_career


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## jollyjacktar (19 Oct 2015)

He was, if nothing else, very capable and professional at his craft.  I am sorry that Uncle Walt had the misfortune to cross paths with Lutje but such are the fortunes of war.


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> He was, if nothing else, very capable and professional at his craft.  I am sorry that Uncle Walt had the misfortune to cross paths with Lutje but such are the fortunes of war.



My uncle RIP crossed paths with Ernst-Georg Drünkler.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Oct 2015)

Hopefully it wasn't a fatal meeting for your uncle.


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Hopefully it wasn't a fatal meeting for your uncle.



There were no survivors. There seldom were in a Schrage-Muzik attack. Only about one in ten crews even saw it coming. 

I used to think it was like 12 O'clock high with massive bomber formations blasting it out with the Luftwaffe. But, it was nothing like that at all for RCAF night-bombers.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Oct 2015)

I'm sorry to hear your uncle's luck also ran out that way.


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## my72jeep (19 Oct 2015)

Sergeant
W M Reid

Air Gunner POW #1268 Stalag Luft I,VI and 357
 Could not help but notice the multiple addresses was it do to escape attempts or?


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## jollyjacktar (19 Oct 2015)

I don't know.  I met the only remaining member of Uncle Walt's crew in the late 80's.  It was interesting to talk with him and find out more of what happened that night.  They had trouble with one of the magnetos and it caused them to fall behind and come inbetween the first and second waves over the target.   With all the defences on high alert they were easier to pick out being more or less on their own and not in the pack.  He didn't want to say too much about the attacks except it went on for a little while before they fell.

I don't remember which man it was, it might have been Sgt Reid.  One kind of funny (haha-ish) thing about him was that his wife was German.  She was a teenage girl manning one of the seachlight batteries in the Rhur valley during the war.  He didn't talk about his POW time much either.


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

I don't know how much you know ( or if you are interested ) about the raid on BOCHUM, JJT.

But, there is this:

"This raid started out well, but after 15 minutes, what were believed to be German decoy markers drew much of the bombing away from the target. The only information available from Germany is that 394 buildings in Bochum were destroyed, 716 were seriously damaged, and 302 people were killed."
Bomber Command War Diaries.

5.4 per cent of the force was lost. That loss rate was pretty typical. I'm not a mathematician, but AIR CHIEF MARSHAL SIR A. T. HARRIS, Chief of Bomber Command, put it this way,
"Your chance of survival through one spell of operational duty was negligible; through two periods, mathematically nil."
http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/WW2_Documents/Harris_Final_Order.htm

My uncle was one his tenth trip of his second tour when the law of averages caught up with him.


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## cavalryman (19 Oct 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I don't know how much you know ( or if you are interested ) about the raid on BOCHUM, JJT.
> 
> But, there is this:
> 
> ...


My mother (then a toddler), her sister (a baby), my grand-mother and great-grand-father were sitting in a bunker in Bochum during that raid, although from what my grand-mother told me, great-grand liked to stand near the entrance and take it some of the spectacle.  Small world, isn't it?


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

cavalryman said:
			
		

> My mother (then a toddler), her sister (a baby), my grand-mother and great-grand-father were sitting in a bunker in Bochum during that raid, although from what my grand-mother told me, great-grand liked to stand near the entrance and take it some of the spectacle.  Small world, isn't it?



Bochum was hit hard during the war:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bochum#The_Nazi_era_and_World_War_II


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## jollyjacktar (19 Oct 2015)

Walt's 6th mission, they were still fairly new to the job.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Oct 2015)

cavalryman said:
			
		

> My mother (then a toddler), her sister (a baby), my grand-mother and great-grand-father were sitting in a bunker in Bochum during that raid, although from what my grand-mother told me, great-grand liked to stand near the entrance and take it some of the spectacle.  Small world, isn't it?



Small indeed.  I am sure there is a ton of coincidences like this between members here that we're unaware of.


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Walt's 6th mission, they were still fairly new to the job.



Reading between the lines, it sounds like your uncle Walt - the pilot - stayed at the controls to give his crew a chance to bail out.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Oct 2015)

Yes, he did.  They were his crew and his responsibility, I would have expected no less of him from what I have been told of his character.


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## mariomike (19 Oct 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Walt's 6th mission, they were still fairly new to the job.



"Half of all aircrew were lost before they had even completed ten missions."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/air_war_bombers_01.shtml

Not surprising when one considers the fact that a five per cent loss rate was considered "acceptable".



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> I have my Grandfather's medals - he was a Merchant Marine ASDIC (SONAR) Operator on a Q-Ship during the First World War - but my Grandmother was so upset at the loss of her older boy that she threw his medals, and all other military records, out.
> 
> I'd dearly love to have those now



My father and I drove to Ottawa in the early 1990's. They handed us the military records of my uncle and his crewmates. Including the Missing Research and Enquiry Service ( MRES - Paris ) report. http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/Pages/obtain-copies-military-service-files.aspx#a

We had already been to the France by that time and met with the local people.  ( After D-Day, all my uncle's trips had been to France. )


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