# Ontario Health "Premium"



## mudeater (5 Apr 2006)

John Tory press release 04/05/06

MILITARY SHOULDN’T PAY MCGUINTY HEALTH TAX
McGuinty okay with armed forces paying tax even though feds cover their health care

(Queen’s Park) – Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory today said Dalton McGuinty should not be forcing members of the military to pay his health tax when the federal government pays for their health care needs.
                       
“Ontario doesn’t pay for our soldiers health care but Dalton McGuinty makes them pay his health tax,” said Tory. “Canada’s armed forces put their lives on the line and Dalton McGuinty is making them pay more and get absolutely nothing for it. He promised not to increase taxes and he definitely never promised to ask our military to pay more and get nothing.”

Despite being in the Legislature today, Dalton McGuinty refused to answer questions from Tory about the McGuinty tax on armed forces as well as questions about year-end government spending. Other provinces in Canada such as Alberta and British Columbia, exempt armed forces personnel from health care levies or taxes because their health care costs are covered by the federal government.

“Dalton McGuinty’s refusal to be accountable for his health tax says it all,” said Tory. “Not only did he break his signature promise, he refuses to even answer for the fallout from that broken promise. Our men and women who fight for Canada deserve much better than this.”


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## scoutfinch (5 Apr 2006)

Sorry but this is the kind of crass politicalism that makes me wanna hurl.  John Tory doesn't give a shit about the military except to the extent that service members can be used to shoot down the Liberals.  No doubt he has read a poll someplace that suggests that the Canadian public supports the troops and is trying to capitalize on it.  He should be ashamed of himself.  

Oh well.  That gives me one more reason on my *Why not to vote Conservative* list.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Apr 2006)

I guess no military person in Ontario has a family?

Stupid cheap political point grab try.......


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## dynaglide (5 Apr 2006)

Yes, my wife resides with me here in Petawawa, however, she pays this tax herself at her civilian job.  So why am I paying it?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Apr 2006)

What if she didn't work?   Any children?.....they work and pay also?


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## monika (5 Apr 2006)

It is the employer not the employee in ON who pays the health tax. I do my company's books and nothing is deducted from the employee.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Apr 2006)

I think they are refering to the "not a tax" tax when you are just about finished your federal tax form.


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## Nicholas2004 (5 Apr 2006)

CF members should not pay tax.  You risk life and limb for your country you should not have to pay tax.  A nice little recruiting incentive. Give CF members a chance to build up a nice little nest egg.  It could even help retention.  Think of you what you could save over 25 years.  The government might even think of doing the same for police/fire/EMS.


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## Thompson_JM (5 Apr 2006)

Nicholas2004 said:
			
		

> CF members should not pay tax.  You risk life and limb for your country you should not have to pay tax.  A nice little recruiting incentive. Give CF members a chance to build up a nice little nest egg.  It could even help retention.  Think of you what you could save over 25 years.  The government might even think of doing the same for police/fire/EMS.



And the worm can has been opened.... Pardon me while I go put my Asbestos suit on.......

and I cant even begin to list the number of reasons why having them not pay tax is a really really BAD idea.... other then the big ones, like
a) its just not feasable
and 
b) no one else in the country would tolerate it


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (5 Apr 2006)

Being posted in Alberta, I can't understand why all this budget surplus isn't going to defer our provincial health care costs. If Alberta's so rich, why do they need my $44/month?


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## Nicholas2004 (5 Apr 2006)

Cpl Thompson, 

I agree with part b) that the Canadian public would not tolerate it but some solutions are not always popular ones.  

Would you please expand on part a) not being feasible.  If Bay Street executive who makes $100 million in the stock market and manages not pay a single cent in tax I think it is possible for 60,000 individuals to be exempted from payroll deductions and filing tax returns.

My two cents.  

Time to think outside the box.


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## Zoomie (6 Apr 2006)

In BC I pay for my wife and son.  A family costs me $48/month in extra health care tax.  If I was single I would not pay this tax.  The CF deducts this rate directly from my pay - if you look on your stub under Medical Insurance you will see a box for Provincial.

While we're on the "no income tax" kick - how about this?  One income tax rate for all CF members, one driver's license Canada-wide for CF families, ditto for license plates and insurance.  In the U.S. servicemen and women can choose which state to pay their income tax - caveat being that they must have resided in that state before enlisting.  Most members choose NY as it has a lower rate.


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## Genetk44 (6 Apr 2006)

Ok....I'm sticking my nose in here......I'm a civilian, have never been in the military or worked in government, reside in Quebec and am in the highest tax bracket possible.....in my opinion.....active military personnel should not have to pay income tax on any income derived from or through the military.
Cheers
Gene


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## monika (6 Apr 2006)

I think a flat military tax would be fair. That way you don't get crazy fluctuations based on postings.


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## geo (6 Apr 2006)

Genetk44 said:
			
		

> Ok....I'm sticking my nose in here......I'm a civilian, have never been in the military or worked in government, reside in Quebec and am in the highest tax bracket possible.....in my opinion.....active military personnel should not have to pay income tax on any income derived from or through the military.
> Cheers
> Gene


In QC, Members on full time service (more than 180 days) are covered by blue cross and are not "dinged" for additional health tax..... then again, we pay an amount for the Quebec Parental Leave program


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## Cloud Cover (6 Apr 2006)

Nicholas2004 said:
			
		

> Cpl Thompson,
> 
> I agree with part b) that the Canadian public would not tolerate it but some solutions are not always popular ones.



Nor should they tolerate it. Other than the current exemptions for income tax, that is enough of a fair tax break for anyone- and no, police, fire and ems should not be given an extra tax break simply by virtue of their occupation. They can "man up" like everyone else and pay their fair share.  Tax waiver for income earned in an operational theatre- sure thing, I agree with that.   



> Would you please expand on part a) not being feasible.  If Bay Street executive who makes $100 million in the stock market and manages not pay a single cent in tax I think it is possible for 60,000 individuals to be exempted from payroll deductions and filing tax returns.



All taxable income, and your example is a bad one anyway. Comparing income earned from property and income earned fom employment is apples to oranges. The only way taxes that would not be paid on stock profits would be if a fraud was committed, or there was some offsetting or corresponding loss.  In any event, the brokerage is supposed to withhold the tax, the tax payer is supposed to report all income, and how they earned it. They are taxed accordingly.  There are ways to transfer property without paying tax, but when those assets produce income or are converted to cash - tax is payable.  Can you cite me an example of where an individual taxpayer, Baystreet executive, day trader or otherwise, made 100 million profit on the stock market and legally did not pay any taxes?   I'm asking you to cite to me the income tax provisions and supporting examples that are not [or were not] the subject of some investigation.

As for other like groups- police/fire/ems- they are already well compensated, usually in ranges far in excess of the average working incomes. They are not millionaires (although I know several who are), but they are hardly starving either! They also have access to pensions and benefits underwritten by taxpayers- many of those taxpayers have no access to such benefits. And don't give me that crap about putting their lives on the line for others- while that may be true there are tons of other occupations out there that perform valuable, dangerous, risk laden work for the greater public good. To deny that is self serving and dishonest.

I have never met or worked with a sensible, mature police officer, corrections officer, soldier or any other similar occupation who demanded or even opined that they pay less taxes than anyone else, or none at all. In fact, quite the contrary- in my experience they don't mind paying taxes as long as the taxes are reasonable, fair [not punitive] and the tax dollars are spent wisely on necessary items.  Just like the average Joe, IMO ... 

People who demand extra-ordinary financial entitlements from taxpayers simply by virtue of their occupation sound like whiners to me. Or liberals - you know what i mean- living comfortably off the sweat of others.


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## George Wallace (6 Apr 2006)

In Ontario it is a Tax and taken out of the Members pay as such.  In Alberta, it is a fee and the Members are reimbursed those fees.  It may be only semantics, but in Ontario the Soldiers are not being reimbursed funds for a Service that they can not use, as they are covered by the Federal System and must use the UMS/Base Hospital, unless it is an Emergency after hours.


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## Nicholas2004 (6 Apr 2006)

"As for other like groups- police/fire/ems- they are already well compensated, usually in ranges far in excess of the average working incomes. They are not millionaires (although I know several who are), but they are hardly starving either! They also have access to pensions and benefits underwritten by taxpayers- many of those taxpayers have no access to such benefits. And don't give me that crap about putting their lives on the line for others- while that may be true there are tons of other occupations out there that perform valuable, dangerous, risk laden work for the greater public good. To deny that is self serving and dishonest.

Please explain why the Toronto Police Association keeps telephoning my house asking for money? 


I made the point about tax incentives because of Canada's current demographic trend - the baby boom generation reaching retirement age.  Even now most employers (in my experience) have trouble finding enough capable/qualified people to fill the positions available. As the baby boom generation leaves the workforce there will be more jobs available and an even smaller pool of new entrants to the workforce fill them.  With CF apparently trying to increase its numbers (with young people mainly) in the face of this demographic trend I personally believe the recruiting group will have to improve its efforts if it is to compete with other employers.  With standards already fairly high for entry I think the CFRG will have a tough time meeting these new targets.


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## Cloud Cover (6 Apr 2006)

Nicholas2004 said:
			
		

> Please explain why the Toronto Police Association keeps telephoning my house asking for money?



Thats disgusting. If a police association is contacting members of the public asking for money, you gotta ask what is wrong with that picture? If they want money, they can tax their own members through higher membership fees.   You might want to ask them where they got your contact information and what other personal information this union has about you if you are not a member. Then again, maybe its not really the TPA, and it is some sort of scam.


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## monika (6 Apr 2006)

Nicholas2004 said:
			
		

> Please explain why the Toronto Police Association keeps telephoning my house asking for money?



I would think that's a scam. Cops are always telling the public they do not solicit funds for any reason via telephone. There are all sorts of groups using similar names, such as Police Retirees Union, who make cold calls in the hopes of cashing in.


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## Armymedic (6 Apr 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I guess no military person in Ontario has a family?



Many of them have a family, almost as many without a family doctor. 

I am split on this. I feel I should not have to pay tax for something I can not use, and I feel by paying  I will contribute to making Ont health care better. A system BTW, we all use after hours when the base clinics are closed. This was discussed at the LFCA Comd/Surg Gen level with LFCA giving qualified support to the tax.

Unfortunately, around Petawawa, we are so short of doctors many families can not get one. One of the more popular ones is closing her office and can not find someone to take over her practice. Perhaps a prudent polictical move would be for the Gov't make getting doctors into the Pembroke/Petawawa area a priority.


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## Cloud Cover (6 Apr 2006)

That is not a situation unique to Petawawa, and it has nothing to do with the army. Most centres in Ontario are desperately short of doctors of all stripes. Even in London, where there are large teaching hospitals, there are over 60,000 people without a family doctor.  Entire floors of new hospitals are closed for lack of staff.


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## Daidalous (6 Apr 2006)

Another Liberal government that has peeved me off enough not to get my vote.  Oh and hydro is going up 6%-15% starting May.  Property taxes are rising etc.    Maybe I should ask for a posting out of Ontario?


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## geo (6 Apr 2006)

Property taxes & Hydro increases are not exclusive to Ontario...
grass may look greener - isn't always the case


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## pbi (7 Apr 2006)

mudeater said:
			
		

> John Tory press release 04/05/06
> 
> MILITARY SHOULDN’T PAY MCGUINTY HEALTH TAX
> McGuinty okay with armed forces paying tax even though feds cover their health care
> ...



Sorry, but as a soldier with a family living in Ontario, I disagree completetely with this. Our contribution towards OHIP helps to ensure that our family members, who unlike US forces are not covered by any primary military health care (PSHC is back-up, not primary), will get the health care that they need. As well, I have civilian extended family members in Ontario, whose health and hapiness I also value, so if my OHIP dollars go towards their care, I'm OK with that, too. Simply being in the military is not a complete release from civil obligations like taxes, etc

Cheers


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## Springroll (7 Apr 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Property taxes & Hydro increases are not exclusive to Ontario...
> grass may look greener - isn't always the case



Got that right!!

Anyways, back onto topic.

My husband and I were discussing this same topic a little while ago. We both don't like the amount of tax that is deducted from his pay, but since he has become sick and is using the services of the "public" we have no problems with it now. Just in MRI costs, we would be looking at somewhere between $2000 and $4000 USD per MRI, and he has had three in the last 5 months. His CT Scan would have cost anywhere from $300 to $1,000 USD, and he has had two.

We are very glad that we have the medical system we do and are quite content with the amount of taxes he pays to cover those costs so that we don't have to sell our first born to pay for them.


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## Navy_Blue (7 Apr 2006)

I have no problem paying into the collective healthcare in what ever Provence I may be in.  In the long run it helps my wife and kids and the system as a whole.  Everyone complains about services and wait times but no one wants to pony up the cash.  Tax me as much as you want as long as I see services being provided and our society improve as a whole.  Countries with higher taxes tend to have good healthcare, schooling and social programs all things that are a falling apart in this country and south of the boarder.

However as a Sailor I be leave taxes should only be deducted when I'm within Canadian waters.  If I was a Canadian working in the oil and gas industry offshore (outside Canadian waters) or on an engineering project offshore for a Canadian company I would get 40% of my incometax back.  This applies to our sailors on Canadian flagged civi ships.  My job changes very little weather I'm in the Gulf or in the Caribian.  A ship is inherently dangerous weather your getting shot at or not.  It would be a big bonus to our sailors and I don't think many people would mind sailing 6 months+ a year if there taxes were cut back.  

The Navy puts in allot of time away. Operational or not we're on the water away from home 4 to 8 months a year.  Forces wide deployed personnel should get a tax Break.  Might help bring that 23000 recuits they need too.


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## Scoobs (8 Apr 2006)

Since the Federal Government pays 100% for mil mbrs healthcare, to say that it would cost a mil mbr a lot of money if they didn't pay the Health Premium is simply not true.  It is true that Alberta and BC do not call it a tax, but they are fees.  Perhaps one of the problems is in the name.  The Liberals in Ont didn't want people to think that they were raising taxes.  Most Canadians do not pay much attention to politics, etc or have a very short attention span.  The Liberals are hoping that Ontarioans will forget about it, like most politicians do (Federal Lilberals).  Calling it a premium instead of a tax was simply political.  Liberals should call it what it is, the Ontario Health Tax.
Also, I think that most mil mbrs in Ontario would accept paying the tax if we saw an improvement in heatlh services.  I am from Ontario (born in Niagara region) and have lived here for most of my life.  Throughout Ontario, doctors are becoming a rarity.  
Personally, I do not agree with paying the tax.  The Ontario Government is double-dipping, taking money from us and from the Federal Government.  So, I don't and would not feel guilty going to an Ontario hospital after hours since I know that the Ontario Government will be reimbursed dollar for dollar.  It is not a case of paying our fair share, but a case of, if I'm going to pay for it, then I should have better access to it and my family should have much, much better healthcare.  Also, has no one thought that we are paying for our own healthcare through our income taxes (where do you think the Federal Government gets the money to pay for military mbrs' healthcare?).
By the way, whether I pay it or not, my wife would if she made enough money.  So to say, "don't military pers have families too?" doesn't wash.  If the family mbr makes enough, they too will pay the tax.
Bottom line, if they're going to make me pay it, then I should legally be allowed to have an Ontario Health Card and be able to have the choice if I want to go to the MIR or to the local hospital.  If not, don't make me pay the tax and I'll gladly go to the MIR.


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## George Wallace (8 Apr 2006)

Scoobs makes some good points.

Question:  Is it fair for DND to deduct Health Taxes from Members in provinces like Ontario, and not reimburse them; while reimbursing Health Fees deducted from Members in Provinces such as Alberta?  Semantics aside, it really is a double standard.  I suppose there are also other instances in the various Taxes put on CF Members throughout the different Provinces and Territories.


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## Fry (9 Apr 2006)

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> And the worm can has been opened.... Pardon me while I go put my Asbestos suit on.......
> 
> and I cant even begin to list the number of reasons why having them not pay tax is a really really BAD idea.... other then the big ones, like
> a) its just not feasable
> ...



No one else in the country would tolerate it? Persons with native status do not pay tax... yet they still benefit from society. Members in the CF should at least have to pay a very reduced tax if at all. They offer their lives to make sure we infact keep our society.

It would be an amazing recruiting incentive, no one would want to leave, and I'm sure through better money management, the government can find ways to come up with the lost tax money.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Apr 2006)

Fry,
So what do the LEO of this country do? Hang around do-nut shops all day?


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## Gunnerlove (9 Apr 2006)

Wow $40 a month that is crazy money. I am sure people are going to plan their lives around a tank of gas. 

"I was going to get out but how can I say no to $40 a month?"


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## GINge! (9 Apr 2006)

I believe its around 45% of your Ontario Provincial Income tax goes to Health Care anyways. Even with the extra $900 tax/fee added, that amount is still lower for most SM than the total provincial income tax rates in NB and QC to name a couple.


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## monika (9 Apr 2006)

Fry said:
			
		

> It would be an amazing recruiting incentive, no one would want to leave, and I'm sure through better money management, the government can find ways to come up with the lost tax money.



Recruiting incentive? I honestly don't see that happening. Enlisting to save a few $ a month? Maybe I just have to high an opinion of the CF membership, but I don't think people enlist to save $50.00 a month.


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## geo (9 Apr 2006)

Fry said:
			
		

> Persons with native status do not pay tax...


Uhhh.... Fry - Inuit don't have native status. They are expected to pay GST like the rest of us.


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## Navy_Blue (10 Apr 2006)

What taxes are you paying if its only 50$ a month?  The Government takes 1/3 of my pay every year.  Thats a pretty hefty chunk of change.


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## Fry (10 Apr 2006)

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> What taxes are you paying if its only 50$ a month?  The Government takes 1/3 of my pay every year.  Thats a pretty hefty chunk of change.



That's what I was thinking... prehaps I'm missing something here. My apologies if so.


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## Evocatus (20 Aug 2006)

My 2 cents worth;  It seems to me, in a perfect Canadian Forces, this charging for OHIP issue, would be handled quite nicely by DBD/CF by simply reimbursing [the CF mbrs portion only] via PLD.    However, you just know thast it's most likely not ....     

cheers...Evocatus.


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## Chewie (7 Sep 2006)

Bravo Zulu to you TMM......we in the forces should pay a flat tax like we would if posted overseas.
I gave up counting how many times me and the family got screwed every time a posting rears its
ugly head.

Andrew Macleod


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## Fry (8 Sep 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Uhhh.... Fry - Inuit don't have native status. They are expected to pay GST like the rest of us.



That's funny... I know a guy who claims he's 1/8 inuit and has a greencard and claims he doesn't pay taxes...


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## geo (8 Sep 2006)

Inuit or Innu? 
Inuit live in the NWT while the Innu are amerinds living in Labrador.

Also - to not pay taxes, he has to live on a reservation - Innu have reservations, Inuit don't.... maybe it's a matter of him not making enough $$ to pay taxes.


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## orange.paint (8 Sep 2006)

This was a sore point for me a few years ago when I was single paying 600 dollars a year (IIRC) which at the time resembled a paycheck with rations taken off.I will say that incentives like CHEAP HOUSING (not expensive "cheap" houses i.e PMQ'S) and as TMM stated earlier maybe we could have one tax for army personnel so when you get posted it isn't a kick in the peanuts.Maybe we could expand this a little further where an insurance company will allow military members a base cheap auto insurance across Canada.Therefore when your posted from CFB Gagetown to Petawawa your insurance doesn't go from 150 /month to 320/month.

P.S Inuit also come from Labrador,apparently I'm like 1/8Th also.Currently looking into benefits.


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## geo (8 Sep 2006)

I would gather that you pay plenty of taxes (as I: sob!) so Fry's story of a friend not paying is not across the board.

(in some places, the Insurance cos would be inclined to charge us more $$ cause we have a rep for DUI)


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## Fry (8 Sep 2006)

Hey, I'm just relaying what I was told


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## orange.paint (8 Sep 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> (in some places, the Insurance cos would be inclined to charge us more $$ cause we have a rep for DUI)



Lol you make a good point.


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

I don't think this has been brought up in this forum.  I did do a search but only got a comment related to provincial taxes in general. I apologize for bringing up old news but I am already sick of paying this tax.  We were told we had to pay it by virtue of the fact that we live in Ontario...well, I'm not here by choice.
Is anyone (I mean at higher levels) trying to stop military members from paying this tax?
I sent an email to SCONDVA in reference to this (about 2-3 months ago) and so far no reply.  
My spouse and I are both serving members with NO dependents and we both pay about $600.00 per year.  The Ministry of Finance website states:
"The Ontario Health Premium (OHP) was introduced to help improve health services in the province. Revenues from the OHP will also be invested to enhance preventative health measures and expand mental health services, contributing to a healthier Ontario."
So here we are paying for something that is already covered by the military.  I know John Yakabuski and Cheryl Gallant were both committed to stop this tax for military mbrs living in Ontario.  As a matter of fact, when I was still in Petawawa, Gallant had something on the radio about how we were being compensated for it.  I immediately called her office to question this and was told by a staff member that Gallant had been told at a meeting in Ottawa, that we were getting living differential allowances.  I told her that was not true.
We, as military members, are not supposed to pay for health care.  We fall under Federal legislation as detailed in the Canada Health Act:
"The federal government is responsible for: 
- setting and administering national principles or standards for the health care system through the Canada Health Act; 
- assisting in the financing of provincial health care services through fiscal transfers; 
- delivering direct health services to specific groups including veterans, native Canadians living on reserves, military personnel, inmates of federal penitentiaries and  the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and 
- fulfilling other health-related functions such as health protection, disease prevention and health promotion."

Any thoughts?


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## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

Pardon me if I'm wrong, and I hope I am.  OHP is a blanket coverage tax for all Ontarions including military personal with or without dependants. But I don't think we paid it when I was in Petawawa some years ago, I believe it's just new for all above a certain income bracket to pay and is no longer voluntary.  I think it's like Mess dues, you gotta pay. I strongly believe also that is is one way for the well off to pay for the not so well off.  (Read Employment insurance benefits that we can never ever claim)  It would be nice to get away from it but then who would pay medical expences for my family?  The military only covers me.  PHSCP(?) and Great West Life covers the family's medical and dental, so are we double paying or is someone double dipping? 
As a side note: many bases are now getting dependant medical clinics like they/ you have in Kingston.


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

As far as I know, we don't have a dependant medical clinic in Kingston.  There is the FRC that runs Flu Clinics and the like, but I don't know about doctors.
They also have the Health Tax in B.C. (I believe) but military mbrs pay for dependants only.  My brother-in-law did the same thing when he was in Moose Jaw, SK.  We are not paying OHIP, we are paying a heath care premium (read tax).
No offense, but why should I pay medical expenses for someone else's family?? 
Mess dues are implemented by the military and everyone pays them (with very few exceptions), however, health taxes are only paid by people living in certain provinces.  As I said, I didn't choose to live here, this is where the military put me.  How is that just?
If the province really wants people to pay for health care improvements, why don't they charge idiots who go to the ER or call an ambulance when they have a hangnail??? Okay, that's a little extreme but when I worked in the ER in Toronto, we had a girl come into emergency for a pregnancy test (they do them free at clinics) and didn't even stick around for the results, thereby wasting a lot of people's time!!


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## spud (11 Dec 2006)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> As far as I know, we don't have a dependant medical clinic in Kingston.  There is the FRC that runs Flu Clinics and the like, but I don't know about doctors.



There is a family clinic as well at the MRFC, they have several doctors who see patients there. 


potato


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## kincanucks (11 Dec 2006)

_As far as I know, we don't have a dependant medical clinic in Kingston._

So much for Situational Awareness.  The Clinic for dependants has been running for nearly three years now.


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## niner domestic (11 Dec 2006)

There is also one in Trenton, which was signed off on in August 2006.  http://www.trentonmfrc.cfbtrenton.com/index.php?menu=4&submenu=6


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## Redeye (11 Dec 2006)

You wouldn't have paid it a few years ago because it was only brought in a couple of years ago when Dalton McGuinty took the reins.  It's a blatant rip off for Reg F types to have to pay since they're not covered.  Of course, having to pay into EI is a rip off too, but the whole point of insurance is that everyone pays in a little bit anyhow.

The health premium wouldn't have sat so badly as it did if they didn't cut a lot of services out of the coverage when they jacked up the price!



			
				BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Pardon me if I'm wrong, and I hope I am.  OHP is a blanket coverage tax for all Ontarions including military personal with or without dependants. But I don't think we paid it when I was in Petawawa some years ago, I believe it's just new for all above a certain income bracket to pay and is no longer voluntary.  I think it's like Mess dues, you gotta pay. I strongly believe also that is is one way for the well off to pay for the not so well off.  (Read Employment insurance benefits that we can never ever claim)  It would be nice to get away from it but then who would pay medical expences for my family?  The military only covers me.  PHSCP(?) and Great West Life covers the family's medical and dental, so are we double paying or is someone double dipping?
> As a side note: many bases are now getting dependant medical clinics like they/ you have in Kingston.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Dec 2006)

I know this has a lengthy thread somewhere because I remember telling people tp stop whining............you say that its not fair because we're military, etc.

Just what happens when you get in a car accident in Guelph, do ya think you have to survive an ambulance ride to Borden in critical condition?


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## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> There is also one in Trenton, which was signed off on in August 2006.  http://www.trentonmfrc.cfbtrenton.com/index.php?menu=4&submenu=6


And they are still looking for a doctor. It is just around the corner from me and there is no business yet.  So it's not actually "open".  
So, back to the original post of this thread: why are we, the military, paying OHIP when it doesn't really cover us?  It sort of covers our dependants but PSHCP covers them too.  I smell double dipping here and we're the poor smucks paying it!


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## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I know this has a lengthy thread somewhere because I remember telling people tp stop whining............you say that its not fair because we're military, etc.
> 
> Just what happens when you get in a car accident in Guelph, do ya think you have to survive an ambulance ride to Borden in critical condition?


I believe the military will cover the costs of your ambulance ride and medical costs and PSHCP covers your spouse and dependants. I was once home on leave and had to go the the hospital emergency, all I needed was my ID card and leave pass and I was good to go for service.


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## glenndon (11 Dec 2006)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> I believe the military will cover the costs of your ambulance ride and medical costs and PSHCP covers your spouse and dependants. I was once home on leave and had to go the the hospital emergency, all I needed was my ID card and leave pass and I was good to go for service.



Not the point.

We aren't the primary customers for Ontario Health Services.  We (the military, federal government, etc. . ) don't pay to have the services sitting there at a moments notice.  So when any of us in CFB Kingston get injured after 1600 and the base hospital is closed, then we get to go to Kingston General Hospital, wait a few hours, and get taken care of.  (Or when 33 Health Services is on minimum manning due to I would think a Christmas Dinner. . .)  So yes, in the end the military will pay for YOUR individual service, but the Provincial Government will pay to have those doc's on stand-by all the time.


As mentioned above, if they wouldn't have cut services when the raised the prices it would sit a lot nicer with me. . .


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _As far as I know, we don't have a dependant medical clinic in Kingston._
> 
> So much for Situational Awareness.  The Clinic for dependants has been running for nearly three years now.



Pardon me, I just got here this summer.


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

No it is not run by the military, it's run by the MFRC and it's just down the hall from where you cleared in.


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I know this has a lengthy thread somewhere because I remember telling people tp stop whining............you say that its not fair because we're military, etc.



Wouldn't bother me a bit if everyone else had to pay it.


----------



## Armymedic (11 Dec 2006)

Its been discussed at length....Thanks for bringing it up again.

IF we as a CF did not use any civilian facility paid for by the people of Ontario, then possibly we would have a leg to stand on. IN reality because of the downsizing of the CF and the CF medical services, we are now quite dependant on the provincial system to provide our soldier the standard of care that is required. In Ottawa alone, we share facilities and staff in both the Civic and Montfort hosp, as well as office spaces, specialists and MRI machines from provincially funded sources.

This is part of the reason, the other is because it is a provincially legislated tax which we must by law as residents must pay. Many higher paid and smarter people have looked into it, and still say we must.

We do have a COA: Get the Ont Conservatives to remove it once they get elected.

Edit: see this thread:
MY EDIT: Merged with this one. ;D


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## Petard (11 Dec 2006)

Any health care administrators tracking this?

It still seems like the Ontario government is getting money for nothing. 
If I understand the process right, even when a military member does use civilian health care services, the cost of that service is billed to DND, no? 
if St Michael's premise was correct, then all provinces would be following Ontario's suit.

I was posted to Ontario for a little over a year, 2004-2005, no dependants, and although it wasn't a lot, paying this health care premium sucks.
And I don't see it as whining by drawing attention to what is happening, it is sorting something out that isn't right. If you want to let this one go, what else are you willing to write off?


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## Armymedic (11 Dec 2006)

this is not a premise:



> IF we as a CF did not use any civilian facility paid for by the people of Ontario, then possibly we would have a leg to stand on. IN reality because of the downsizing of the CF and the CF medical services, we are now quite dependant on the provincial system to provide our soldier the standard of care that is required. In Ottawa alone, we share facilities and staff in both the Civic and Montfort hosp, as well as office spaces, specialists and MRI machines from provincially funded sources.



but the reason we are paying this tax. This is the reality throughout Ontario.

As for other provinces following suit...I can see it happening where increasing health care costs are burdening already stuggling prov coffers.


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

SMMT,

Thanks for posting the link to the other thread, some interesting reading.
Okay, I don't mind paying the tax IF everyone in Canada paid the same tax and it was per person, not based on salary.  Here's my spouse and I, with no dependants, paying X amount of dollars on our salaries and here's Pte Bloggins, brand new to the military, with a stay-at-home spouse and four kids paying less and he uses the medical service more? Yep. sounds like the government to me.


----------



## x-zipperhead (11 Dec 2006)

It's just politics.  The Ontario government doesn't want to raise taxes so they levy a Health Care Premium.  So now that it is broken down and you can see that separate portion, it just doesn't seem right, I know.  In reality if they had just raised their tax rate to cover the shortfalls in healthcare the optics would be different.




			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> .....health taxes are only paid by people living in certain provinces.  As I said, I didn't choose to live here, this is where the military put me.  How is that just?



Move to NS or another similarly heavily taxed province, then.  The military sent me here and like you I didn't have a choice.  Is it just that I pay $2800 more in provincial taxes than a military member that lives in Ontario? (Pet was my last posting so I am painfully familar with Ontario's rate vs. NS)   NS isn't clever enough to introduce a "premium" , instead we have a tax rate (boot to the nuts) that covers the expense of their healthcare.  As a military member who uses the CF Health Services system, should I then have the Healthcare portion of my provincial income taxes identified and rebated back to me because I don't use them?  not IMO.  

Don't get me wrong I sympathize with you.  I just don't agree with your reasoning.

By the way how much is this premium?


----------



## Armymedic (11 Dec 2006)

I believe its $1000 per person/yr

right out of 'er. I remembered the max rate.


----------



## x-zipperhead (11 Dec 2006)

Wow that's more of a boot than I thought.  So $4000 for a family of 4? No family rates or anything?  I guess you are taxed more heavily than NS when it all comes out in the end.


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

Here's a link to taxtips.ca

http://www.taxtips.ca/ontax.htm

Scroll about 1/2 way down the page to Ontario Health Premium.  It's based on salary, the more you make, the more you pay.  Go figure.


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## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> I believe its $1000 per person/yr


I checked the site and I only paid about $450 last year for my family.  double check yours there SMMT, I think you're either incorrect or paid way too much.


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## x-zipperhead (11 Dec 2006)

So, for my income ( and your's according to your profile)  it would be $600.  My taxes icreased $2800 a year moving from ON to NS, so I would be $2200 better off in ON it would seem.  The way I understand it, it is payable by each taxpayer so you are not paying $600 for each of those "precious little mouths to feed" ;D should you have kids.  Am I wrong in this assumption?

Edit: Looking at BYT Driver's post I would say I am correct in that assumption(?)


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

No, you've got it, it's only paid by salary so I guess you're getting a deal if you have a lot of kids.


----------



## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

Petard said:
			
		

> Any health care administrators tracking this?
> 
> It still seems like the Ontario government is getting money for nothing.
> If I understand the process right, even when a military member does use civilian health care services, the cost of that service is billed to DND, no?
> ...



Thanks, Petard.  I emailed SCONDVA.  I wonder if I would get a response from the CF Ombudsman?


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

Thanks, I stand corrected.  It probably was $600.  When we moved from NS to ON, we did make a few bucks, so the ON gov taking away is only normal.


----------



## x-zipperhead (11 Dec 2006)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No, you've got it, it's only paid by salary so I guess you're getting a deal if you have a lot of kids.



Well I say count your blessings you are in ON (tax-wise) it's a real deal.  I think you pay the lowest taxes in the country ( BC is very close).  We are all being taxed for a provincial health care system wherever we are posted.  If you weren't then you would be getting a free ride courtesy of every Canadian federal taxpayer, which IMO would be unfair.  You've got to pay for your health services somewhere.


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

If you want some unfair taxes check out the ones that PQ nab you for.  Something like extra income tax plus QPP that you'll never collect.  Anyone from Quebec out there to back some of this up?
Cheers.


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2006)

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> Well I say count your blessings you are in ON (tax-wise) it's a real deal.  I think you pay the lowest taxes in the country ( BC is very close).  We are all being taxed for a provincial health care system wherever we are posted.  If you weren't then you would be getting a free ride courtesy of every Canadian federal taxpayer, which IMO would be unfair.  You've got to pay for your health services somewhere.


Well, I guess it's like the GST then, if it was hidden we wouldn't know about it and we'd have nothing to "whine" about (as someone so aptly put it earlier). 
I guess I'll stop using the MIR and just go straight to the civvy hospital.  I wonder when I'll get my OHIP card??  :


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

I'd say ON is a bit more open about thier taxes.  NS hides alot in the Horse shyte tax of 15% ON EVERYTHING!  Plus more road tax on gas and HST.  You win some , you lose some.  It all tallies out in the long run.


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

By the way, you and your hubby are D.I.N.K.'s, right?  Try doing all this on Cpls pay, single income with teenagers.
There are alot of people who are worse off than you. 

(rant off)


----------



## x-zipperhead (11 Dec 2006)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, I guess it's like the GST then, if it was hidden we wouldn't know about it and we'd have nothing to "whine" about (as someone so aptly put it earlier).
> I guess I'll stop using the MIR and just go straight to the civvy hospital.  I wonder when I'll get my OHIP card??  :



Well, actually it is sort of like that.  Look at it this way, the CF (read; every canadian taxpayer) is providing you a free healthcare system.  You pay nothing for it (except the same proportion of your federal income tax as every other canadian - most of whom have no access to it) and in return you pay the appropriate taxes and your share for the province in which you reside. That is exactly what those of us in"non-healthcare premium" paying provices do through our provincial income taxes.  In the end you are paying less than you would be in any of the other provinces even with your premium (tax).


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

+1
Plus we are one of the MOST highest paid militaries in the world.  Therefore we are duly compensated for said outrageous taxes et al.  For examaple, the US military does not pay for their dependant medical/dental on base, nor their =PMQ's or food while living in.  BUT, thier pay sort of sucks and is nowhere close to our system. 

_Did someone see my can of worms? _


----------



## Armymedic (11 Dec 2006)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Plus we are one of the MOST highest paid militaries in the world.  Therefore we are duly compensated for said outrageous taxes et al.  For examaple, the US military does not pay for their dependant medical/dental on base, nor their =PMQ's or food while living in.  BUT, thier pay sort of sucks and is nowhere close to our system.



No I don't.

US Military dependants get health care thru the US Military Tricare. Free
US military housing is...free. If you live out, then you pay for your own home.
Rations though, unless deployed always must be paid for.
The US military pays only slightly less then we get (after exchange).

so whats your point?


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

SMMT, didn't I just say that?
My point is that we are paid enough to compensate for all the little extras in life. Depending on where you reside would also depend on how much you are able to put in your pocket.  I, too, am pissed that we have to pay OHIP when our families are duely covered by insurances that we pay for.  Pay certain taxes and pension plans/insurances premuims and not allowed to collect.  Money out the window if you ask me that can be better put into my sons' education plans or trust funds.


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Dec 2006)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> By the way, you and your hubby are D.I.N.K.'s, right?  Try doing all this on Cpls pay, single income with teenagers.
> There are alot of people who are worse off than you.
> 
> (rant off)


Okay, let me reply to this.  Technically, you could call us DINKs but I pay child support for my daughter who lives with her father and hubby was paying child support right up until this year.  That's not the point I'm trying to make.  If you look at my original post, what I'm saying is military (or RCMP) should not be paying for Provincial health care as we are covered by the Federal government as stated in the Canada Health Act. http://hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/medi-assur/res/faq_e.html
Canada Health Act:
"The federal government is responsible for: 
- setting and administering national principles or standards for the health care system through the Canada Health Act; 
- assisting in the financing of provincial health care services through fiscal transfers; 
- delivering direct health services to specific groups including veterans, native Canadians living on reserves, military personnel, inmates of federal penitentiaries and  the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and 
- fulfilling other health-related functions such as health protection, disease prevention and health promotion."


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## gaspasser (12 Dec 2006)

I read the site but it doesn't say anything about it paying for dependants and spouses.  That is probably why we have to pay OHP in Ontario and HST and such in NS.  HST in NS covers MSI, which if "free".
       I would like retract and apologize for my uncalled for statement calling anyone a D.I.N.K.  I didn't realize at the time that some people do pay child support and alimoney.  I work with a D.I.N.K. who cries foul all the time and sometimes needs a good STFU to open thier eyes.


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## geo (12 Dec 2006)

Free provincial health care?

In Quebec, Medicare (FSS) is a charge to business' based on their payroll.  So, for users, it is "free"... sort of BUT, it certainly isn't free to the taxpayers.

Soooo... this contrasts with Ontario and a couple of provinces where it is assessed to the individual -  and the business'.

Is it fair to pass it all the way down to the taxpayer?
Obviously not............... guess residents of Ontario should ask the provincial gov't to make changes and ask that they charge 100% of the medicare bill to the employers(good luck).


----------



## Petard (12 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Free provincial health care?...
> 
> Obviously not............... guess residents of Ontario should ask the provincial gov't to make changes and ask that they charge 100% of the medicare bill to the employers(good luck).


and I asked about this earlier, I think the province *does* charge DND for medical service provided to CF personnel, in addition to the premium/tax charged to the individual, unless I got this wrong, this is why I think it's not reasonable
And it shouldn't matter a tinkers damn what your personal situation is, re DINK et al, the provincial government ought not be asking to be paid twice for something.

In a sense I kind of get the idea its a sneaky way to make up for some revenue shortfalls on the backs of CF personnel.


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Dec 2006)

Petard said:
			
		

> and I asked about this earlier, I think the province *does* charge DND for medical service provided to CF personnel, in addition to the premium/tax charged to the individual, unless I got this wrong, this is why I think it's not reasonable
> And it shouldn't matter a tinkers damn what your personal situation is, re DINK et al, the provincial government ought not be asking to be paid twice for something.
> 
> In a sense I kind of get the idea its a sneaky way to make up for some revenue shortfalls on the backs of CF personnel.


Thank you, that's my point exactly!! That the government is being paid twice for these services (and it's against the Health Act).

Also thank you BYT Driver for the apology(I took no offense at your comment) but you're right, everyone is in a different situation......by choice.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Dec 2006)

Petard said:
			
		

> and I asked about this earlier, I think the province *does* charge DND for medical service provided to CF personnel, in addition to the premium/tax charged to the individual, unless I got this wrong, this is why I think it's not reasonable
> And it shouldn't matter a tinkers damn what your personal situation is, re DINK et al, the provincial government ought not be asking to be paid twice for something.
> 
> In a sense I kind of get the idea its a sneaky way to make up for some revenue shortfalls on the backs of CF personnel.



Yea, your right...........take that posting to Valcartier,...that'll show 'em. 

When in Rome..........


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## Petard (12 Dec 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Yea, your right...........take that posting to Valcartier,...that'll show 'em.
> 
> When in Rome..........



hey, have you been swillin' with my career mangler? something I should know? ;D


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## gaspasser (12 Dec 2006)

> In a sense I kind of get the idea its a sneaky way to make up for some revenue shortfalls on the backs of CF personnel.


+1 Agreed.


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## Armymedic (13 Dec 2006)

Anyway back on topic:

A revelation from another thread, part of the post edited for relevence:



			
				Hauptsturmführer Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> a LONG one from Monday 11 December 2006: (first part)
> *Canadian Forces *​
> *Mrs. Cheryl Gallant (Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, CPC)  *
> Are we as Canadians doing all we can to support our brave men and women in uniform?
> ...


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## GAP (13 Dec 2006)

Why does no one file a lawsuit?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Dec 2006)

Quote,
_and reserve military members in Ontario_.-  Red Herring at best

_Quotes,
 As the member of Parliament for the riding that includes CFB Petawawa, I was recently contacted by a military couple who, tragically, lost their baby a few weeks after it was born. As both husband and wife are military, they do not have OHIP coverage because the federal government provides for health care directly. As the child died a few weeks after birth, the child would not be covered by OHIP because neither parent has an OHIP number to extend coverage to the child even though both parents are paying thousands of dollars in health care premiums to the provincial government. 

The Government of Canada, through the leadership of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, is doing its part._


Well if The Government of Canada didn't cover it then I would put forward they did not do thier part.


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## vonGarvin (13 Dec 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quote,
> _and reserve military members in Ontario_.-  Red Herring at best


UNLESS she meant reservists on Class "C", since they are covered, no?

(Yes, this is a stretch)


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## dapaterson (13 Dec 2006)

Reserve members serving periods of service under 180 days full-time receive emergency treatment, and treatment for any service related injuries from the CF Health service.  Reservists serving on class C service or on class B service  for periods in excess of 180 days are provided the (almost) full-meal deal from the CF Health service.

However, some reservists have been known to keep their OHIP (or other provincial health card) up to date in case they cease full-time employment with the military and wish to avoid any mandatory waiting periods; some may also use it to avoid reporting certain conditions to the CF.  (I am not endorsing that behaviour, for the record).

The CF Health system does lack any sort of protocol for use when Reservists start full-time service; they start a new, blank medical file and unless prompted rather heavily they do not seek out previous civilian records.  That lack of background information could be serious (but that's a topic for another discussion).


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## x-zipperhead (13 Dec 2006)

Petard said:
			
		

> and I asked about this earlier, I think the province *does* charge DND for medical service provided to CF personnel, in addition to the premium/tax charged to the individual, unless I got this wrong, this is why I think it's not reasonable



I believe you are correct in this



			
				Petard said:
			
		

> And it shouldn't matter a tinkers damn what your personal situation is, re DINK et al, the provincial government ought not be asking to be paid twice for something.



It doesn't matter.  The taxes you pay go into the healthcare system that provides the primary medical treatment of your dependents.  If you have no children then it is going to contribute to the health of the next generation or two of workers who will be earning the wages and paying the premiums to keep your various pension funds alive, maintain the infrastructure and support the society you live in as a whole.  Think of it as an investment   All the RRSP's in the world won't do you a damn bit of good if society and the economy as a whole go into the crapper. It may be hard to do when it comes to taxes and your wallet but sometimes IMHO you have to look at the bigger picture.



			
				Petard said:
			
		

> In a sense I kind of get the idea its a sneaky way to make up for some revenue shortfalls on the backs of CF personnel.



Let's keep a little perspective here.  We as members pay nothing for our"primary"healthcare so we are not paying twice.  I think there is a blurring of the lines here between our primary health care and the "supplementary" kind of coverage we and our dependents enjoy through the Public Service Health Care Plan (i.e. drug benefits, hospital stays, ambulance services, vision care, chiropractors, physiotherapists, psychologists, etc, etc, etc).  Our Dependents are covered by OHIP (or whatever provincial/territorial plan applies) for their "primary" health care.

Cheryl Gallant......well I think this is just another political opportunity to crusade against any level of Liberal Government.  It's all about politics, IMHO.  Don't get me wrong, the service couple described have fallen through the bureaucratic cracks, are being done an injustice and need help.  The help they need however is in getting OHIP to pay for their child's medical bills because that is who is supposed to be paying.  Instead they are being used to launch a political attack.


So if we exempt Ontario CF members from paying their premium then by extension you would have to provide a rebate to CF members in other provinces an amount of their provincial income taxes that would represent their contribution to their provincial health care system.  Who would then be paying for you dependents?  Your civilian neighbors who pay their premiums/taxes?  The military?

IMHO the reason the CF and RCMP are provided for by the federal government,as outlined in the Canada Health Act, has more to do with the unique requirements of service (overseas deployments, travel, postings, etc) and less to do with giving military members a free ride for their healthcare.


----------



## PMedMoe (13 Dec 2006)

Why are members living in Alberta and B.S. exempt??  ???


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## gaspasser (13 Dec 2006)

PMM, now I see your arguement.  I thought you were talking about OHIP, I didn't know that we paid Ohp.  There's a difference.  I now stand behind you and Cheryl Gallant on trying to eliminate this tax on military personal.


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## geo (14 Dec 2006)

When the Fed gov't made health care a provincial gov't responsibility they created their own pandora's box.


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## vonGarvin (14 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> When the Fed gov't made health care a provincial gov't responsibility they created their own pandora's box.


I'm reaching WAY back in my memory for this one, but I seem to remember from my grade 10 Social Science classes that health care IS a provincial responsibility.  The Feds have been getting their hands in the collective pockets of the provinces since I don't know when, but it's not right of them to do so OTHER THAN to ensure that the provinces all have similar services and standards of care.


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## geo (14 Dec 2006)

( yup, it's still the provinces that worry out the funding model for health services)


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## niner domestic (14 Dec 2006)

Geo: The Feds gave health care to the provinces under section 92 of the Constitution - way back in 1867.  This is not a new power for the provinces.


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## geo (14 Dec 2006)

9D....
where did I state that this was something "NEW"?


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## Barrel Nut (2 Jan 2007)

The OHP is costing me $600 a year in additional tax, CF members were to pay this as it could be seen that they too would use the civilian emergency rooms from time to time (this is where this tax was susposed to be utilized) and when two Paramedics had to pull my ass out of my car one day from an accident, it seem to me that this made sense.  However, I actually got to see a portion of the bill that the hosiptal sent to DND, $400 for a short ambulance ride to the hosipital and the MIR clerk expected the rest of the bill to follow in the $2000 dollar range, keeping in mind I was only examined and released.  The high cost is because DND underwrites its own insurance, meaning they paid for everything.  So we pay more to use the service and DND pays in full for the service.

The other side of this is that when the OHP hit, it should of triggered a change in the Post Living Differential Allowance (PLD) and there were messages that came down to this effect, but this was the year they went to a newer PLD calculation formula, we lost $600 a year in tax and in alot of cases the PLD dropped.

Since the nice pay raise of 2005, we've got the OHP, new pension premiums, and child support rates (for those of us in that boat) have gone way up, All in All, I'm making $500 dollars less a month in my take home.


----------



## geo (3 Jan 2007)

Barel..... there is a cost associated in keeping those paramedics and the ER personnel available and on standby to give you that checkup & okie dokie after your little accident.  If Ontario did not have the facilities available or if they had made you wait an extremely long time -  you would be complaining on how lousy the service was.... also, think of your wife (or your ex) and your kids who would draw on the health care system as well.  The fact that Ontario has decided to charge OHIP to members of the CF is not a DND issue.  Vote with your wallet next time there is a provincial election.

WRT child support rates - don't see what the problem is - some fellas weren't paying and most all provinces have instituted regulations on this subject so the CF is only setting a common standard for everyone.

WRT the new pension premiums - rates go up and rates go up..... in order to deliver the pension plan you are expecting to receive - the fund has to be there to pay out... many civy look at us jealously - we have a pension plan - they don't.

WRT to PLD....yeah - been griped about and griped about


----------



## aesop081 (3 Jan 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> WRT child support rates - don't see what the problem is - some fellas weren't paying and most all provinces have instituted regulations on this subject so the CF is only setting a common standard for everyone.



Just so everyone is clear, and people paying out child support all know this, The amount you pay is set by the Federal government, not the provinces.  Comes from a nice table that says " you make this much, you pay this much".


----------



## geo (3 Jan 2007)

I'm still with my Mrs and my 14 yr old.... am paying thru the nose all the time.


----------



## Barrel Nut (3 Jan 2007)

Geo:  Point with OHP is that a $600 dollar increase is necessary to cover the baby boomers as they get into retirement and pay less tax to support the system, however such a spike in tax should of triggered the PLD revision, enough said as we all know what didn't happen.  Both my current wife and former wife also pay this tax so that should take care of our family portion, not sure if I agree with DND having to pay full price on everthing while its Federal employees help maintain a system without compensation which was susposed to be offered under the PLD.

WRT Pension Premiums:  It is recongized that prices go up, but the last things I read on a DND site was that one of the last acts of the previous Government was to raid the CF and RCMP Pension funds of their surpluses and that money was turned back into a surplus budget for that year, surplus budget meaning they didn't need to raid the plans.  DND's only comment was, this is now before the courts to see if taking the money was a legal move And sorry there is now a long term shortage in funding in your pensions therefore your premiums will have to be adjusted.


----------



## geo (3 Jan 2007)

was not aware of last said raid on Pension plan.
If that is the case, it certainly contradicts requirement for increased rates.

If you say it is in the courts, I guess we will hear about this in due course.


----------



## GAP (22 Jun 2007)

Just to add fuel to the ever present fire....

*TTC workers don't have to pay Ontario health tax*
toronto.ctv.ca
Article Link

Unionized TTC workers will not have to pay Ontario's annual health tax because of wording in its 35-year-old contract. 

The Supreme Court of Canada on Thursday ruled it would not hear the TTC's appeal of a lower court ruling. 

The decision by the high court, which did not give a reason for not hearing the case, puts Toronto taxpayers on the hook for $6 million a year. 

TTC Chairman Adam Giambrone also said the cash-strapped city expects to pay $15 million in back pay to workers. 

The issue stems from the TTC's collective agreement with Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113, which represents about 8,700 TTC employees. 

In 1972, the union obtained a guarantee from the TTC that the transit authority would pay 100 per cent of Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) "contributions." 

When Premier Dalton McGuinty's Liberal government introduced the Ontario health premium on July 1, 2004, the union said the TTC, not individual employees, should pay the health tax. 

An arbitrator agreed with the union's argument, as did the Ontario Divisional Court and the province's Court of Appeal. All ruled the word "contributions" covered the new health fee. 

Unionized employees will now receive a refund of between $500 and $700, money owed to them dating back to July 1, 2004, said Local 113 president Bob Kinnear, who was excited by the legal victory. 

Giambrone said the TTC took the case to the courts because it respected taxpayers' dollars. 
More on link


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## PMedMoe (22 Jun 2007)

That's it, time to unionize the military!!  :


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## AVS Tech (2 Jul 2007)

All military members serving in Ontario should apply and receive a Ontario Health card and we should use it reguarly. Perhaps then the Ontario Government would see the increase in expenditures and decide to exempt Military members from this obviously unfare tax. Anyone have any additional thoughts on this????


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## Armymedic (2 Jul 2007)

I am sure we could if it were not illegal.


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## PMedMoe (2 Jul 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> I am sure we could if it were not illegal.


In what way is it illegal?  And does it say that in writing somewhere?


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## Armymedic (2 Jul 2007)

yes, and you should know where to look.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

AVS Tech said:
			
		

> All military members serving in Ontario should apply and receive a Ontario Health card and we should use it reguarly. Perhaps then the Ontario Government would see the increase in expenditures and decide to exempt Military members from this obviously unfare tax. Anyone have any additional thoughts on this????



Do you have a family (ie a wife and/or kids) who are benefitting from your payment of those premiums?? Because if so, quit whining already. My husband and I are both in the Military, we both paid it. We have two kids (both born in Pembroke, ON), exempt us?? Why?? So the other people in Ontario could pay for my kids' health benefits, stitches, immunizations etc?? Even if you're single, you can be sent to a civ hospital for XRays etc ... and you aren't getting the bill.

If not, bring it up with your MLA to have it made into a Provincial election issue. Good luck with that.

And Moe, yes it's illegal. Next time you are on the DIN check out your pubs.


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## PMedMoe (2 Jul 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Even if you're single, you can be sent to a civ hospital for XRays etc ... and you aren't getting the bill.



But the military does.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> But the military does.



That's right. All civilian medical bills come into CMED Petawawa for payment ... and _they_ have their ways as I learned during my posting to that Unit where I paid those bills.


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## PMedMoe (2 Jul 2007)

Okay, so what I am saying (and it's been said before) is that the Ontario government is double-dipping by charging us a health care tax and charging the military for the services we _supposedly_ already pay for.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Do you have a family (IE a wife and/or kids) who are benefitting from your payment of those premiums?? Because if so, quit whining already. My husband and I are both in the Military, we both paid it. We have two kids (both born in Pembroke, ON), exempt us?? Why?? So the other people in Ontario could pay for my kids' health benefits, stitches, immunizations etc?? Even if you're single, you can be sent to a civ hospital for XRays etc ... and you aren't getting the bill.



Totally disagree Vern.

If your not a military couple and your spouse is working civi side then she is paying the premium and using it, though she is also covered under the Public ServantsHealth Insurance plan(So are your children). So again why is that I am paying for something I will never use? The CF (Though Blue Cross) pays the province direct for any medical care I receive civi side (X-Rays, Hospital stays, etc etc) Again I am pouring money into a system that I will not benefit from at all ever.

Alberta does not make Military members pay into their health tax for this very reason. This is just a money grab by Ontario to help float the health system that much more. I cannot at this time find how much $$$ the CF members posted to Ontario are paying but I am sure that it is not a little amount.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Okay, so what I am saying (and it's been said before) is that the Ontario government is double-dipping by charging us a health care tax and charging the military for the services we _supposedly_ already pay for.



Ever heard of inter-governmental transfers??

Ever worked with FMAS where taxes were coded seperately to actuals??

There's a reason for that.

The fact is that most working Canadian Citizens pay into a Provincial health plan. By advocating that CF members pay nothing, you are putting yourself higher in the food-chain than them. I have a problem with that. 

The facts are, you as an individual don't have to pay, you have excellent coverage should your child need dental/health care (ie braces, or even yourself if admitted to civilian hospital facilities) that the average Canadian does NOT get to benefit from, or an upgrade in room from a "ward" under your coverage. Get over it already; there are important things to be worried about in this world.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Totally disagree Vern.
> 
> If your not a military couple and your spouse is working civi side then she is paying the premium and using it, though she is also covered under the Public ServantsHealth Insurance plan(So are your children). So again why is that I am paying for something I will never use? The CF (Though Blue Cross) pays the province direct for any medical care I receive civi side (X-Rays, Hospital stays, etc etc) Again I am pouring money into a system that I will not benefit from at all ever.
> 
> Alberta does not make Military members pay into their health tax for this very reason. This is just a money grab by Ontario to help float the health system that much more. I cannot at this time find how much $$$ the CF members posted to Ontario are paying but I am sure that it is not a little amount.



HitorMiss,

You think the very small amount that both you and your wife paid each month into it comes anywhere near covering the cost of your daughters birth?? I've got an eye-opener for you ... you've both already benefitted from those payments more than you will ever contribute into it.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

On another note,

Look at it this way, HitorMiss, your daughter comes up to visit; she needs to be admitted to the hospital ...

Are you willing to be billed (and pay for) for her full healthcare costs because you do not contribute to the Provincial plan?? Or should the other voting citizens of Ontario foot her bills?


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

Deepends on how you want to do the Math. If you avg out the amount I have paid since the inseption of the Tax plus that which She paid we more then covered the cost. Now add in how much more I will be paying over the next few years till I get posted (If I get posted out of Ontario) Plus much of the cost of the birth (Hosptial room etc etc) was coverd by the Insurance Plan or out my own pocket. So again argue you all you want the Tax is getting much more out out me CF then the CF ever will get out of it.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

As a resident of Nova Scotis the bill will be paid by the provience to which she is a resdient of. And again much of her medical cost will be covered by the Insurance plan I pay into just for such an event.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Deepends on how you want to do the Math. If you avg out the amount I have paid since the inseption of the Tax plus that which She paid we more then covered the cost. Now add in how much more I will be paying over the next few years till I get posted (If I get posted out of Ontario) Plus much of the cost of the birth (Hosptial romm etc etc) was coverd by the Insurance Plan or out my own pocket. So again argue you all you want the Tax is gettimg much more out ot eh CF then the CF ever will get out of it.



That is false. Look at my earlier response to PMedMoe re FMAS and transfers.

As to out of your own pocket...sure if you chose to upgarde to a private room over and above that which was covered by your premiums paid, just like every other Canadian. There's nothing wrong with that, it's your _choice_.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

My last and final point is simply that if other Provinces are exempting the members of the CF why is Ontario will not follow suit? Second again as I pointed out many (not all) CF Couples are not 100% Military and one or the other spouse is paying into the tax anyway. All I am advocating is the Members of the CF do not pay it not the whole family complete.

As for Money transfers and FMAS yup I am sure it is slow but guess what....the money arrives sooner or later it's not like it never ever gets paid. Oh and room upgrades are paid for by me contributing to the private Insurance plan that any other Canadian could get if they wanted to ( not the Public Servant one yes, but a private one certainly) And to upgrade past that I pay out of my own pocket.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

HitorMiss,

Getting posted out of Ontario will just have another Province eating up your "savings" (??) in OHIP costs plus much more of your income with .... taxes.

Anyway, I'm hitting the road back to the apartment now ...

hate to post and run.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

I am sure we will continue this when you arrive back at your place. Till then be safe on your drive.

Oh and you're still wrong


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## PMedMoe (2 Jul 2007)

I don't care about paying the d**n tax, (well, yes I do, because it's WRONG), this is what I'm trying to get at:

IAW the Canada Health Act:

 The *federal* government is responsible for: (highlights, mine)

    * setting and administering national principles or standards for the health care system through the Canada Health Act;
    * assisting in the financing of provincial health care services through fiscal transfers;
    * delivering direct health services to specific groups including veterans, native Canadians living on reserves, *military personnel*, inmates of federal penitentiaries and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and
    * fulfilling other health-related functions such as health protection, disease prevention and health promotion.

We as the CF are not supposed to be paying for _Provincial_ health care.  And directly from the CF Health website: (again, highlights are mine)

1. The Constitution Act places responsibility upon the Federal Government for providing medical care to members of the Canadian Forces (CF). This is because *the Canada Health Act and the provincial health insurance acts exclude members of the CF from the list of "insured persons" for the purpose of provincial health care coverage. *Therefore, the CF provides its members with comprehensive health care comparable to that guaranteed to all Canadian citizens under the Canada Health Act.
The Canada Health Act of 1 April 1984, which applies to all Canadians, states that: "....the primary objective of Canadian health care policy is to protect and restore the physical and mental well-being of the residents of Canada and to facilitate reasonable access to health services without financial or other barriers." the Act further states that insured person means: *"....a resident of the province other than a member of the Canadian Forces."*

And before anyone gets into the dependents thing again.....I don't have any.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

Well that certainly says all that needs to be said in plain english doesn't it.....


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## George Wallace (2 Jul 2007)

My simplistic view on the subject is that the CF Member should not be double taxed.  The CF Member should not be paying this OHIP Tax.  That does not, however, apply for the CF Members dependants.  If they are not members of the CF, then they should be subject to the Tax like any other resident of the Province.  If they are not employed then this will have to come out of the wages of the wage earner, (the CF Member,) like any other household in the Province.


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## EW (2 Jul 2007)

"Hit or Miss," why don't you consider it an investment?  You aren't going to be in the CF forever.  At some point, in your far distant future you are going to retire, and be living off the system that hopefully was well maintained while you were off serving your country.  

This is health care we're talking about, not some pork barrel government project.  And yes, of course it isn't the same in every province, some provinces might not tax it directly, but they are definitely getting the money from somewhere, and that probably leads back to the taxpayer.  

Personally, I don't give a crap about the politics of the situation, so much I believe that everyone has certain obligations to society, and health care is one of them.  

By the way, I just retired with 20+ years - leaving the umbrella of CF health care.  Never complained about paying EI or any other benefit I couldn't collect, because I knew this day would come.  Not to say I didn't complain about other taxes, or use of our tax dollars - but not universal health care.

Regards....


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## George Wallace (2 Jul 2007)

EW

If that is to be the case, then the Province should issue CF Members OHIP Cards, like all other residents of the Province, and end the waiting time that a Retire CF Member may face in the future when they apply for such a card.  Once upon a time members of the CF did have those cards.  They do not now.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
> 
> My last and final point is simply that if other Provinces are exempting the members of the CF why is Ontario will not follow suit? Second again as I pointed out many (not all) CF Couples are not 100% Military and one or the other spouse is paying into the tax anyway. All I am advocating is the Members of the CF do not pay it not the whole family complete.
> 
> As for Money transfers and FMAS yup I am sure it is slow but guess what....the money arrives sooner or later it's not like it never ever gets paid. Oh and room upgrades are paid for by me contributing to the private Insurance plan that any other Canadian could get if they wanted to ( not the Public Servant one yes, but a private one certainly) And to upgrade past that I pay out of my own pocket.



Workers pay the OHIP premiums. Civy families have 2 income households too, not just the military. That is an irrelevant point. Working people pay. That's the way it is in a democracy. As for other provinces re-imbursing to Mil mbrs (some reimburse _some_ costs -ie a percentage of what is paid in -... not all), as I said to HitorMiss...they just make up for it in higher provincial tax rates. You see Ontario has lots of workers paying into the healthcare system ... ergo the costs of such do not need to be collected through a higher provincial taxrate. In the END, healthcare costs money ... they will get it out of you either via contributions to OHIP or taxes. 

And Moe did you miss my post?? That's right you contribute to private insurance at your choice, and upgrades to rooms past the entitlement at your choice...just like any other Canadian. What's the problem with that?? 

... You need to research FMAS a bit more ... and learn about transfers. 

Yep HitorMiss, that does say it all ... but it sure doesn't say the Military looks after the costs of healthcare for your dependants does it?? OHIP is paid by individual workers ... but it's not paid simply for the benfit of you the individual.

Moe, you have no dependants. That's your choice. You must hate paying property and education taxes too eh?? That's what democracy is all about. I hope you don't have any non-working relatives or parents living in Ontario either who use the healthcare system, because if it weren't for the "employed" in that Province (or any province) paying into the healthcare system; there wouldn't be a healthcare system, and by that reasoning the CF wouldn't have to provide you with squat either.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

EW look at the Post by Moe

The federal government is responsible for: (highlights, mine)

* delivering direct health services to specific groups including *VETERANS*, native Canadians living on reserves, military personnel, inmates of federal penitentiaries and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police;

You are a Veteran and as such again are covered by the federal level of Government. My advice is to look into this as you again are paying for something you have no need to.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

Vern you missed my point about the dependants.... I am not against someone paying into a health tax just that the CF member should not be (IE: if your spouse is a civi she is paying into the tax which will cover the dependant, add in the Private insurance and the Province is getting it's money). And Alberta has a lower tax rate then Ontario and the CF member does not pay into their Health tax at all, so that argument does not hold water with me.

PS: thought you were leaving, you got a long drive get on it will you LMAO!


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> EW look at the Post by Moe
> 
> The federal government is responsible for: (highlights, mine)
> 
> ...



But not their dependants. Your OHIP premiums paid benefit your entire family ... not just you.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Vern you missed my point about the dependants.... I am not against someone paying into a health tax just that the CF member should not be (IE: if your spouse is a civi she is paying into the tax which will cover the dependant, add in the Private insurance and the Province is getting it's money). And Alberta has a lower tax rate then Ontario and the CF member does not pay into their Health tax at all, so that argument does not hold water with me.



That's right...Alberta can AFFORD to reimburse it HitorMiss, they have shotloads of workers there paying in.

Too bad many CF members can't AFFORD to live there just to save the minimal amout they pay out to OHIP...they'd be so much happier then.   :


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> But not their dependants. Your OHIP premiums paid benefit your entire family ... not just you.



And the Tax on your pension covers the cost of the OHIP Premium, Plus the civi spouse (if you have one) has paid over the years again covers that.


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## PMedMoe (2 Jul 2007)

This is like comparing apples and oranges.  I think the point of the argument has gone off the deep end.  I am not talking about dependents, out of work relatives, etc.  I am talking about the fact that the CF should not be paying for Provincial health care as stated in the Canada Health Act.  
I don't mind paying property and education taxes, there's no act that says I should be exempt.  I don't disagree with paying health care for dependents, either.


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## HItorMiss (2 Jul 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That's right...Alberta can AFFORD to reimburse it HitorMiss, they have shotloads of workers there paying in.
> 
> Too bad many CF members can't AFFORD to live there just to save the minimal amount they pay out to OHIP...they'd be so much happier then.   :



Population of Ontario and Alberta in 2006

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo02a.htm?sdi=population

Summary:

Ontario:12,687.0
Alberta:1,177.8

Employment rates

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labor07b.htm
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labor07c.htm

Summary:

Ontario:
Men: 65.0%
Woman: 55.6%

Alberta:
Men: 76.9%
Woman: 64.6%

So ummm exactly which Provence is making more money in TAX for all things? :


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## EW (2 Jul 2007)

Vern's point is bang on,

Whether it is your spouse, extended family, or the poor immigrant couple who can't afford health care, those of us who make a decent living wage have a responsibility to pay into the health care system.  When it comes to health care, I wouldn't expect much support from the Canadian public.  In order for the govt to be held accountable, this has to get traction in the press; and having to pay a health care tax, is just not something that outrages the public.  Right or wrong.  Plus - hasn't the Ontario Legislature hit their summer recess yet?  Only hope to hold the Premier accountable is to bring it up next session.

I specifically mention 'poor immigrant couple' because it usually solicits comments that the vast majority of them are living off a system they haven't paid into.  However, in another 20-years, or so, I'm hoping that their educated and well paid, first-generation Canadian, sons/daughters will be paying the taxes that will ensure I receive health care in my old age.

I was however, very glad to see the govt live up to its obligations in Pembroke with the extra dollars they reluctantly pumped into that health care centre for kids.  Specifically those kids having a hard time dealing with a parent's deployment, and the casualties tied to Pet.


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## EW (2 Jul 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> EW
> 
> If that is to be the case, then the Province should issue CF Members OHIP Cards, like all other residents of the Province, and end the waiting time that a Retire CF Member may face in the future when they apply for such a card.  Once upon a time members of the CF did have those cards.  They do not now.



You might have a good point there George.  My wife is still serving, so I look forward to seeing where the CF does go with health care.  

I am happy to report though that my experience with OHIP has been a positive one thus far.  Although I gave my leadership plenty of advance notice, I pulled plug with 30-days official notice (waiting on a civi job opportunity), and was worried I wouldn't get my OHIP set up in time.  I went in to get my card, and the pleasant lady at the counter promised me that I should see it in the mail in 5 business days.  True to her word the card was at my front door in one week - the day before release. 

She even thanked me for having served.


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## Blackadder1916 (2 Jul 2007)

Comparing the health "premiums" paid by individuals in different provinces is not always straightforward, since the definitions are different as well as the legislation authorizing them.  

There are two provinces that currently require eligible participants of their provincial health plans to pay premiums, Alberta and British Columbia.  These premiums are assessed on the basis of eligibility (and participation level) and are mandated by the legislation authorizing those provinces' health insurance plans.  If you want to have valid health insurance you have to keep paying the premiums (if you cease or miss paying even by one payment your coverage will not be valid if you visit a doctor's office).  

When Ontario introduced the Ontario Health Premium it did so under its provincial income tax act, therefore it is treated differently.  All taxpayers in Ontario (whether eligible to participate in the OHIP or not) are subject to this premium (..TAX) depending on their income level. http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/media/2004/bk-ohp.html#OHP


> Employers
> Some existing collective agreements refer to coverage of the old OHIP premiums. However, unlike the old OHIP premiums, the new premium would be a tax on individuals under the Income Tax Act. Whether the Ontario Health Premium would be captured by those agreements would depend on the interpretation of those agreements.
> 
> Although it might be possible for employees to negotiate with their employers to be reimbursed for the premium as part of their compensation, it would be considered a taxable benefit to the employee and would be subject to personal income tax.



That is the difference.  In Alberta and BC an individual is paying a fee for coverage under an insurance plan.  In Ontario the individual is paying a tax whether he is covered or not.


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## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

Off the deepend Moe?? I think not.

You are a taxpayer who resides in Ontario.



> I am talking about the fact that the CF should not be paying for Provincial health care as stated in the Canada Health Act.



You want your cake and you want to eat it too.

The CF budget is CANADIAN taxpayers money, not yours personally. 

I absolutely agree that the millions of Canadian taxpayers out there (including you and me) through our federal taxes are contibuting to the costs of treating CF members injured due to their military service to the country, that is part and parcel of serving on their behalfs.

But ...

Why the hell should those millions of Canadian taxpayers pay a portion of their hardearned monies to pay for a CF members injuries/illness' that are NOT related to their service to the country?? Those very taxpayers are paying the exact same federal taxes as you are, and are also paying a Provincial premium. You want them to cover 100% of your healthcare costs for things not related at all to your service to the Country, which _is _ what is happening by them paying fed taxes _and_ provincial premiums while you only want to pay fed taxes.

They, by the same arguement, do not benefit from having access to 2 healthcare systems like you do. And they pay taxes AND a provincial premium...you pay taxes, but advocate that you should not have to pay another dime like all the rest of taxpaying citizens do.
When is the CF going to start re-imbursing the millions of dollars to those Canadian taxpayers from the portion of their federal taxes that goes to pay for non-service related healthcare costs the CF budget covers for you? That's fair isn't it? Shouldn't you (because YOU are the one benefitting from that) be the one paying for it? Why should they? They can be 2 civvies married to each other with no kids living in Ontario...why should a portion of their taxes pay for your non-service injury/illness related healthcare while you pay only taxes? That is like the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it.

And the facts are, you DO have access to both. You can indeed walk into any hospital in this country (including Ontario) and present your ID Card and/or Blue Cross card and receive healthcare services 24/7. You don't have to have an OHIP card or any other provincial healthcare card to be able to do that. The fact that we don't physically have a provincial health care card means diddly squat. You (because you are a member of the CF) get to access those provincial services. Not a single civvy hospital would deny you treatment.

But, don't be surprised if the CF sends you the bill for accessing those servcies outside of those CF regulations. It is the CF regulations that prevent you from going to the civvy hospital inside of normal working hours when access to the CF Health Svcs is available, or outside of an emergency.

As for Ontario double-dipping...not quite accurate. Yep the CF budget pays for us, but then The FEDERAL level takes that all into account when they decide how much money each province in turn receives from Federal coffers as federal-transfer credits of monies to each provincial healthcare fund.

Back when I was single and posted to NS, I was deducted provincial health care premiums (and was only re-imbursed a percentage of what I paid into it ~I got back something like 23 bucks a year) despite the fact that I never used a civilian facility in that province.

Then in NB (where neither I nor my husband were charged anything for healthcare) my son was diagnosed with cancer simultaneous to our move to Ontario (where my husband and I both paid OHIP). NB did not charge me for those services availed to my son, nor did Ontario (over and above our OHIP). I've also had cancer ... twice (neither of which were related to smoking I'll note). This was dealt with through Provincial facilities, not CF ones. I was placed on the provincial waiting list (3-4 months) awaiting surgery to remove the tumor from inside the left side of my head. I received a call 2 weeks later ... to report to the Ottawa General at 0400 the next morning because they had a cancellation and could get me in for my surgery.
2 years later, I was again using provincial facilities due to another type of cancer.

I had my 5 year cancer-free check-up this past December. My son has been 9 years. Yet, I still have to report for annual MRIs and CT scans (in civilian hospitals!!) as the type of tumor I had in my head has a high recurrance rate. If you think you'll ever convince me that I should bitch about paying what amounts to nickles and dimes each month during my postings in Ontario, or bitch about the fact that I was only reimbursed a portion of what I paid into provincial healthcare during my posting in NS, you've got another thing coming.

Instead I sit back and thank my lucky stars that I live in Canada where I don't have to pay the total expenses myself. The little that I have contributed to OHIP and NS doesn't even come close (and never will) to covering MY costs on that provincial system, let alone my sons. 

Yes, indeed, I have more important things to worry about than bitching about the small amount I pay into the healthcare system for the benefits that I (and you) get from it. It is my sincere hope that you never experience something similar to actually have to enjoy the benefits of that small amount you pay into it.

Canadians, maybe one day they'll realize how good they actually have it.


----------



## AVS Tech (2 Jul 2007)

HitorMiss, I agree with you for the most part, Serving CF members should be exempt from this tax, but not their families. however your statement that "Alberta has a lower tax rate then Ontario" is not correct. Below you will see the rates of all provinces and Territories in Canada, and clearly you can see that Ontario has the second lowest rates (BC is the lowest). I am currently serving and living in Alberta. I recalculated my Income Tax for last year using all provinces (using Quicktax 2006). Even with the OHP added in, my overall taxes were still lower in Ontario. However BC was the lowest. 
In my opinion, I still believe that serving CF Members should be exempt this tax as all of our needs are covered by the Federal Government. Any services that we get from the province is fully reimbursed to them by the CF Health Care system.

Provinces / Territories Rate(s)

Newfoundland and Labrador 	
9.64% on the first $29,886 of taxable income, +
14.98% on the next $29,886, +
17.26% on the amount over $59,772

Prince Edward Island 	
9.8% on the first $31,369 of taxable income, +
13.8% on the next $31,370, +
16.7% on the amount over $62,739

Nova Scotia 	
8.79% on the first $29,590 of taxable income, +
14.95% on the next $29,590, +
16.67% on the next $33,820 +
17.5% on the amount over $93,000

New Brunswick 	
9.68% on the first $34,186 of taxable income, +
14.82% on the next $34,188, +
16.52% on the next $42,787, +
17.84% on the amount over $111,161

*Ontario 	*
*6.05% on the first $35,488 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $35,488*, +
11.16% on the amount over $70,976

Manitoba 	
10.9% on the first $30,544 of taxable income, +
13% on the next $34,456, +
17.4% on the amount over $65,000

Saskatchewan 	
11% on the first $38,405 of taxable income, +
13% on the next $71,324, +
15% on the amount over $109,729

*Alberta 	10% of taxable income*

*British Columbia 	
5.7% on the first $34,397 of taxable income, +
8.65% on the next $34,397,* +
11.1% on the next $10,190, +
13% on the next $16,925, +
14.7% on the amount over $95,909

Yukon 	
7.04% on the first $37,178 of taxable income, +
9.68% on the next $37,179, +
11.44% on the next $46,530, +
12.76% on the amount over $120,887

Northwest Territories 	
5.9% on the first $35,315 of taxable income, +
8.6% on the next $35,316, +
12.2% on the next $44,199, +
14.05% on the amount over $114,830

Nunavut 	
4% on the first $37,178 of taxable income, +
7% on the next $37,179, +
9% on the next $46,530, +
11.5% on the amount over $120,887

No matter what we pay, we all should be happy and proud to be Canadian. The envy of the world.


----------



## armyvern (2 Jul 2007)

AVS,

Again, the fallacy in your arguement:



> CF Members should be exempt this tax as all of our needs are covered by the Federal Government. Any services that we get from the province is fully reimbursed to them by the CF Health Care system.



is that the *federal system/CF healthcare system* is *Canadian Taxpayers monies*. That means that millions of Canadian taxpayers across this nation are paying their fed taxes _and_ provincial premiums to cover their _and_ your healthcare costs; while you (ie the CF member) pay only fed taxes towards your costs. How's that fair?? Especially when your injury is NOT service related and/or is the result of stupidity?? 

Get ready for change folks, because the CF system is already beginning to look at that "non-service related costs" bit. Look at the VAC thread and read the part about MOs not going to be filling out any more paperwork/forms at no cost anymore for CF members if it's not paperwork relating to a CF requirement or task. The onus shouldn't be on the taxpayer to cover that stuff for you ... but they currently are, and judging by the comments here, you expect them to ... even though you don't want to contribute a single dime yourselves towards it over and above your fed taxes (that those civvies also pay). I guess only the civvies should have to do both (ie pay both taxes and provincial premiums) to benefit from only one system, unlike yourselves who benefit from access to two healthcare systems but only want to pay taxes.


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## DirtyDog (22 Mar 2011)

Sorry for the thread revival, but has there been any change in this issue?

I've been wondering why it is that I pay the Ontario Health Premium for some time now and finally did a search on here.

It irks me.  You may call me selfish, but I hate the entire welfare state mentality that justifies this to most people (apparently).  I guess some people are satisfied with happily paying more and more taxes and not demanding more for our dollar.  I have zero guilt finding as many (legal) ways possible of not giving the government my money.  God knows they get enough of it....


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## captloadie (22 Mar 2011)

Try living overseas and still paying for it, just because the last province I lived in was Ontario. I guess I have to look at it as investing in the future so when I return there is still a healthcare system.


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## PMedMoe (22 Mar 2011)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Try living overseas and still paying for it, just because the last province I lived in was Ontario.



I don't think it has anything to do with the last province you lived in.  I believe all overseas pay is taxed through Ontario (Ottawa).


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## George Wallace (22 Mar 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I don't think it has anything to do with the last province you lived in.  I believe all overseas pay is taxed through Ontario (Ottawa).



.......as your Postal Address is Belleville, ON.     ;D


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## Pusser (22 Mar 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> .......as your Postal Address is Belleville, ON.     ;D



That has nothing to do with it.  Things may have changed, but the last time I was on an overseas posting, we were "deemed residents" and our provincial portion was a blended rate (which tends to be close to the Ontario rate).  Unlike provincial taxes paid by folks living in Canada, this money does not go directly to your province of residence (because you don't have one), but is instead distributed through transfer payments.  If you're posted overseas, Belleville is a mailing address and that's it.  Your residence as of 31 December (which is how you are taxed) is wherever you were physically living on that day.  Deemed residents should not be paying an Ontario Health Premium because that only shows up on the Ontario Provincial Tax form and you shouldn't be completing and submitting that form.


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## Zoomie (22 Mar 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Deemed residents should not be paying an Ontario Health Premium because that only shows up on the Ontario Provincial Tax form and you shouldn't be completing and submitting that form.



Good to know - I'll be in this position next tax year.


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## captloadie (22 Mar 2011)

I was told the rule is that, yes we are deemed residents, but of the province in which we still have ties. I could probably file a manual return and have it all sorted out, but I'm lazy, and the tax software only works if you have a provincial address, which then makes you a resident of that province. And as I said earlier, I look at it as investing in the province I'll likely have to return to.


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## CountDC (22 Mar 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I don't think it has anything to do with the last province you lived in.  I believe all overseas pay is taxed through Ontario (Ottawa).



Unless things have changed in the last couple years this is not quite correct.  If you do a small party op through the FSS then you will not pay taxes while overseas.  These Ops are normally 6 months or 1 year and does not involve a move or your family going with you.


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## PMedMoe (22 Mar 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Unless things have changed in the last couple years this is not quite correct.  If you do a small party op through the FSS then you will not pay taxes while overseas.  These Ops are normally 6 months or 1 year and does not involve a move or your family going with you.



I was referring to actual postings where the dependents accompany the member.


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## Pusser (23 Mar 2011)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I was told the rule is that, yes we are deemed residents, but of the province in which we still have ties. I could probably file a manual return and have it all sorted out, but I'm lazy, and the tax software only works if you have a provincial address, which then makes you a resident of that province. And as I said earlier, I look at it as investing in the province I'll likely have to return to.



Each to his own, but I'm puzzled by this approach.  You're paying for something you don't have to.  You will receive no benefit from it and Ontario will not thank you for it.  Furthermore, if you are audited, you will likely have to re-do your taxes anyway as the money will have to be re-distributed


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## Pusser (23 Mar 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Unless things have changed in the last couple years this is not quite correct.  If you do a small party op through the FSS then you will not pay taxes while overseas.  These Ops are normally 6 months or 1 year and does not involve a move or your family going with you.



When determining provincial income tax, your "residence" is your primary residence.  If you go on an operation, you're generally not moving your dependants or household goods, so your residence remains in Canada and you are taxed accordingly.  It's worth noting that even in Canada, if you go on IR to another province, you are still taxed based on where your dependants reside (i.e. your primary residence).  If you go on an overseas operation, your operations allowances are not taxed because they are earned outside Canada.  You may also be eligible for a tax credit for the rest of your salary if the operation is classed at a certain level, but there is a cap on that depending on your rank level.


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## dapaterson (23 Mar 2011)

It would be interesting to have a CF member assert that their Statement of Ordinary Residence is the location where they should be taxed; if they vote in Nova Scotia but live in Ontario solely for service reasons, should they not also pay taxes in Nova Scotia?

I seem to recall that US servicemembers pay taxes in their "home" state, not their duty location.


(Note:  This is not tax advice.  I am not an accountant or a tax lawyer.  Anyone taking advice from random people on the internet (even me!) should ahve their head examined).


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## Pusser (23 Mar 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to have a CF member assert that their Statement of Ordinary Residence is the location where they should be taxed; if they vote in Nova Scotia but live in Ontario solely for service reasons, should they not also pay taxes in Nova Scotia?
> 
> I seem to recall that US servicemembers pay taxes in their "home" state, not their duty location.
> 
> ...



The Statement of Ordinary Residence is a device used under the Special Voting Rules of the Elections Act and *only* applies to that act.  The income Tax Act does not contain a similar provision.  In other words, your "ordinary residence" under the Elections Act is not the same as your "primary residence" under the Income Tax Act.  While it is true that American service members can elect to pay taxes in their "home" state, we do not have the same option  ???.


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