# Tornado replacement: Luftwaffe to get Eurofighters, Super Hornets and Growlers?



## MarkOttawa (26 Mar 2020)

1) Germany reportedly moving toward a split buy of Super Hornets, Growlers and Eurofighter Typhoons to replace Tornado jets


> The German air force will reportedly buy up to 90 Eurofighters, 30 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers to replace the remainder of its Panavia Tornado fighter jet fleet, but the split procurement doesn’t offer an easy answer for Germany’s requirement to field a nuclear-capable jet, a U.K. defense think tank said.
> 
> Germany plans to use the Super Hornet, made by U.S. aerospace company Boeing, to fill a NATO requirement to field fighter aircraft capable of dropping the B61 nuclear gravity bomb, according to German business publication Handelsblatt, which first reported the split buy. It will also buy Growlers to replace the Tornados that carry out an electronic attack role.
> 
> ...



2) The Bronk piece at RUSI:



> German Decision to Split Tornado Replacement is a Poor One
> https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defence-systems/german-decision-split-tornado-replacement-poor-one
> ...
> The only possible nuclear adversary for NATO in Europe is Russia, and it has developed an extremely capable and thoroughly modernised integrated air defence system to protect both its ground force manoeuvre elements and its borders, including the key enclave of Kaliningrad. The modernised B61 Mod 12 is extremely accurate and has a large variable yield range to allow careful matching of nuclear escalation if required, but as a gravity bomb the delivery aircraft would have to get within a handful of nautical miles of the target – an extremely dangerous activity for non-stealth aircraft even against current-generation Russia defences. The German replacement fighter is intended to begin deliveries in the mid-2020s and will arguably need to remain credible against likely threats for decades to come.
> ...



3) And note this earlier at IISS:



> Berlin and the bomb
> ...
> Belgium, Italy and the Netherlands will all operate the low-observable Lockheed Martin F-35A in the DCA task. Germany, however, as things stand, will use a fourth-generation fighter, having ruled the F-35A out of its competition. However, in order to successfully deliver a free-fall weapon, such an aircraft would need to penetrate enemy air defences that would likely include combat aircraft and a layered belt of advanced surface-to-air missiles; this raises the question of whether a fourth-generation combat aircraft is now the ‘right’ choice for the DCA task. As a low-observable design, the F-35A would offer greater survivability in penetrating defended airspace, but even here there is risk. While the F-35A is stealthy, this only reduces the detection range of threat air-defence systems, and having to near overfly the target increases the chance that the aircraft will be detected by air-defence sensors and engaged.
> 
> ...



Talk about, er, granular anaysis that we do not see in Canada. I would think the Germans hope/expect never to have to use damn nukes and thus all the technical arguments are irrelevant to their politicians (sound familiar?).

Mark
Ottawa


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## CBH99 (26 Mar 2020)

If they were able to certify the Tornado to carry the B61, I'm sure they can certify the Super Hornet & Growler.  And, since any nukes dropped from German aircraft would be American bombs, destined for targets chosen by America, in support of American foreign policy, if America wants Germany to continue to have that capability, then perhaps America should be the one paying for it?  (I'm not saying I support that, just food for thought?)


I agree on the 3 micro fleets being a bad approach though.  Talk about a huge amount of technical burden, supporting 3 small fleets of aircraft instead of just buying 120 of one aircraft.  


Personally, I think they should have gone with the latest model of Eurofighter.  As stated, it was designed to be an air superiority fighter with lots of future growth in mind.  It also supports the European aircraft industry at a time when they really should be looking to bolster & solidify their own defense industries (many of which are already quite impressive).


As for the F35A - yes, a solid choice for sure.  But, as stated, many other European countries will be operating the F35 in the same role the Germans would have used it for.  By going with a Gen 4 aircraft, I think they are actually mitigating a lot of the cyber risk that comes from an effective cyber attack against the F35.  (Reference the 'Alphas' story posted in another thread)


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## PuckChaser (26 Mar 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> As for the F35A - yes, a solid choice for sure.  But, as stated, many other European countries will be operating the F35 in the same role the Germans would have used it for.  By going with a Gen 4 aircraft, I think they are actually mitigating a lot of the cyber risk that comes from an effective cyber attack against the F35.  (Reference the 'Alphas' story posted in another thread)



Mitigating a cyber risk by greatly increasing the conventional surface to air or air to air missile threat. If your goal is to drop a nuclear weapon, you probably want to get to the target undetected. That being said, I have no idea if the F-35 is certified or will ever be certified as nuclear weapon capable, I think the US has other airframes to conduct nuclear deterrence so probably not even required.

I concur though, the Eurofighter would probably be the best "bomb truck" if that's what the Luftwaffe is looking for.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Mar 2020)

If they need some lessons on how to penetrate Russian airspace, they should talk to this guy:

Mathias Rust (born 1 June 1968) is a German aviator known for his illegal landing near Red Square in Moscow on 28 May 1987. An amateur pilot, the teenager flew from Helsinki, Finland, to Moscow, being tracked several times by Soviet air defence and interceptors. The Soviet fighters never received permission to shoot him down, and several times his aeroplane was mistaken for a friendly aircraft. He landed on Bolshoy Moskvoretsky Bridge next to Red Square near the Kremlin in the capital of the Soviet Union. 

Rust said he wanted to create an "imaginary bridge" to the East, and he has said that his flight was intended to reduce tension and suspicion between the two Cold War sides. Rust's flight through a supposedly impenetrable air defence system had great effect on the Soviet military and led to the dismissal of many senior officers, including Minister of Defence Marshal of the Soviet Union Sergei Sokolov and the Commander-in-Chief of the Soviet Air Defence Forces, former World War II fighter ace pilot Chief Marshal Alexander Koldunov. The incident aided Mikhail Gorbachev in the implementation of his reforms, by allowing him to dismiss numerous military officials opposed to his policies. Rust was sentenced to four years in prison (for violation of border crossing and air traffic regulations, and provoking an emergency situation upon his landing). He was officially pardoned by the Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet Andrei Gromyko, and released after 14 months in prison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust


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## CBH99 (27 Mar 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Mitigating a cyber risk by greatly increasing the conventional surface to air or air to air missile threat. If your goal is to drop a nuclear weapon, you probably want to get to the target undetected. That being said, I have no idea if the F-35 is certified or will ever be certified as nuclear weapon capable, I think the US has other airframes to conduct nuclear deterrence so probably not even required.
> 
> I concur though, the Eurofighter would probably be the best "bomb truck" if that's what the Luftwaffe is looking for.




I agree with you too - penetrating enemy airspace to drop a nuke is probably best done undetected.

However, with the USAF and several other European countries flying the F-35, there are plenty of aircraft available if that is the task at hand.


I also agree that the Eurofighter would have been the best 'bomb truck' of sorts, because it would reinforce their already existing fleet that already has low serviceability without the unnecessary expense of 3 separate fleets.  It would also add a LOT more air frames available for their primary missions, which is what they need 99.9% of the time


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## MarkOttawa (27 Mar 2020)

USAF F-35As will be nuclear-capable, as will those of Netherlands, Belgium and Italy:



> ...
> 
> New F-35 fighter jet suitable for carrying nuclear bombs
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (27 Mar 2020)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> USAF F-35As will be nuclear-capable, as will those of Netherlands, Belgium and Italy:
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



Plus on USAF F-35As:



> ...The contract notification did not disclose the specific nature of the Phase 2.3 work to be undertaken, and Lockheed Martin had not responded to a request for information by the time of publication.
> 
> A budget justification and approval (J&A) document released in February 2018, however, shows it to be related to the carriage of the B61-12 nuclear weapon on the F-35A for the US Air Force (USAF) and international customers. The F-35A will carry up to two such weapons in its internal bays...
> https://www.janes.com/article/89151/dod-awards-usd1-8-bn-for-further-f-35-upgrades



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (20 Apr 2020)

Looks like Germany going ahead with Super Hornets/Growlers, plus Typhoons, for Luftwaffe to replace Tornados:


> Germany Informs US Regarding Purchase of 45 Boeing Fighters
> 
> German Defense Minister has Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer reportedly informed Mark Esper, US Secretary of Defense, regarding its plan to acquire 30 F/A-18 Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers for Luftwaffe.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (20 Apr 2020)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Looks like Germany going ahead with Super Hornets/Growlers, plus Typhoons, for Luftwaffe to replace Tornados:
> Mark
> Ottawa



Friend comments:



> And this selection process took how many decades?



Mark
Ottawa


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## PuckChaser (20 Apr 2020)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Looks like Germany going ahead with Super Hornets/Growlers, plus Typhoons, for Luftwaffe to replace Tornados:
> Mark
> Ottawa



It'll be interesting to see what they're going to pay for their SH's. That'll be the most accurate number when trying to read the tea leaves on the CAF's fighter replacement bidding.


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## MarkOttawa (22 Apr 2020)

More on_ Luftwaffe's_ Tornado split replacement:



> Germany picks Super Hornet and more Eurofighters for Tornado replacement
> 
> Germany is to pursue a split order for the replacement of its Panavia Tornado combat aircraft, selecting both European and US models for the requirement.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (24 Apr 2020)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> More on_ Luftwaffe's_ Tornado split replacement:
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



But not a done deal for some while:



> Germany won’t be buying US planes to replace aging Tornados before 2022, official says
> 
> Germany has not committed to buying 45 American jets to replace some of its Tornado fighter-bombers, the country’s top defense official said this week amid accusations that she formally indicated to the Pentagon that the multibillion-dollar deal would go ahead.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## Dale Denton (24 Apr 2020)

Can't find it now, but wasn't there an EW pod or something in development for the Typhoon?


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## PuckChaser (24 Apr 2020)

LoboCanada said:
			
		

> Can't find it now, but wasn't there an EW pod or something in development for the Typhoon?



This one? https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/jamming-pod-test-powers-saab-electronic-attack-drive/135453.article

It's not a standalone system, Saab says its complementary to Growlers (so not a full set of capabilities).


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## MarkOttawa (12 May 2020)

Start of an excellent and detailed discussion at a post by Finnish blogger Corporal Frisk (pseudonym, knows his stuff):



> On German Nukes and Tornadoes
> 
> Few fighter procurements go completely without a hitch these days, and the German Tornado-replacement program is no exception. Critics have decried it as the worst of all options, questioned the idea of a small Super Hornet/Growler-fleet, asked why the Eurofighter ECR doesn’t get any love, and whether nuclear strike really should be included at all in the German mission set.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## CBH99 (12 May 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7NuNDlJBBI


One of the first Youtube videos I actually watched from start to finish.  While somewhat bland and lacking cool graphics, I found his presentation to be quite interesting nonetheless.

I don't know much about internal German/EU politics, but he brought up some interesting (to me, anyway) points I didn't know about before


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## Drallib (9 Sep 2020)

The official announcement is still pending, but an FYI.



> Germany "orders" Super Hornet and Growler as Tornado replacement
> 
> Following our earlier reports (*) on the new fighter aircraft for the Luftwaffe (GAF, German Air Force), it is now reported that a final decision was made: the Luftwaffe will take the next steps in ordering thirty Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornets and fifteen Boeing EA-18G Growlers.
> 
> ...


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