# B Fleet divestment & B vehicle rust-out (Split from: TAPV thread)



## Nfld Sapper (17 Sep 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I strongly doubt the PRes getting shiny TAPVs is the lynch-pin to collapse the whole reserve system.
> 
> A bigger "I told you so" moment is going to happen *when the PRes no longer has serviceable LSVW/HLVWs* (the MRT and wrecker to support your new toys) due to lack of parts, but that's going to be an Army-wide issue (and covered in another thread).



Too late that has already happened.....


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## Eye In The Sky (17 Sep 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> serviceable LSVW



I think some units had a 70% VOR for those a few years after they showed up, so I can only imagine what state they are in now.


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## MilEME09 (17 Sep 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Service battalions should have a large wrecker and smaller one based on a pickup. All service battalions should be able to swap out major components in the field, including axles, motors, transmissions and do minor repairs. If Joe's logging can do it out in the bush, so can our Service Battalions.



1. I would go with a bit heavier then a pickup truck, and have good off road capabilities

2. That would be the dream for most of the techs in my unit, the problem is equipment and will power of our higher ups


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Sep 2014)

I have no doubt the will and dream is there, we kept our 3 ton going for several years including rebuilding the engine at unit level. The equipment you need to do most of it is not that complex. but you have identified the real stoppage for most of the army issues.


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## blackberet17 (6 Oct 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think some units had a 70% VOR for those a few years after they showed up, so I can only imagine what state they are in now.



My unit lost its LSVW CP a few years ago. Luckily, we have a Sigs sqn close by, so they support our ex's with their CP kits...but they haven't had an LS for two years now...they keep breaking down on the way to/from an exercise (pick one)...they suppported our ex two weeks ago, and my CP was in the back of an MS. Worked really well, but I'm afraid it will catch on as the new normal...

...just like the quads and Rangers being used on the PRes DP1.2 (Tp Ldr) crs run this summer in Gage, because they had so few LUVWs for the crs in the first place.


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## MilEME09 (6 Oct 2014)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> My unit lost its LSVW CP a few years ago. Luckily, we have a Sigs sqn close by, so they support our ex's with their CP kits...but they haven't had an LS for two years now...they keep breaking down on the way to/from an exercise (pick one)...they suppported our ex two weeks ago, and my CP was in the back of an MS. Worked really well, but I'm afraid it will catch on as the new normal...
> 
> ...just like the quads and Rangers being used on the PRes DP1.2 (Tp Ldr) crs run this summer in Gage, because they had so few LUVWs for the crs in the first place.



My unit has just started flat bedding our LSVW CP to and from EX, and then bring parts to keep her running during the EX. Adding on to your last comment, I did my DP2 RCEME common two years ago (pilot course for the new training plan) and we were using brand new Jeep Grand Cherokees as our MRT's instead of LSVW's. Not complaining about the ride but it wasn't a suitable vehicle for the subject matter.


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Oct 2014)

Gee what could we possibly do to fill the LSVW CP gap, nope can't see out of the box....








and what is old can be new


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## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2014)

We have an LSVW CP vehicle waiting for us to pick it up from the local TEME.

We are taking a... very... long... time...


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## PuckChaser (6 Oct 2014)

That's great, you have a pod. Where does the comm suite cabling come from? They're not cheap, and if we can't afford a LSVW alternator, we sure can't buy more comm suites.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's great, you have a pod. Where does the comm suite cabling come from? They're not cheap, and if we can't afford a LSVW alternator, we sure can't buy more comm suites.



That's part of the delay, of course, and not just our reluctance to take possession of a serial lemon. They stripped out all the radios awhile ago and now they can't re-install them for some reason, likely the lack of parts - oh and radios too.


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## blackberet17 (7 Oct 2014)

Because of lack of vehicles, CO wanted to run the last ex dismounted. Thankfully, we got 5 x LUVW in time to run mounted. We still had the issue of radios, however...only enough to do two dismounted OPs, no double bank comms in any vehicle, and again, the local Sigs sqn bailed us out.

Reminds me...during STRIDENT TRACER, I took a few pictures of LUVW I knew were sitting around Gagetown, in various lots I've run past on PT the last three years...there's over a dozen I COULD see just sitting there, gathering weeds. No tags or issue cards to be seen...I'd like to know what's happening with them, I used to have 17 in my compound at one time...


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## GK .Dundas (7 Oct 2014)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> Because of lack of vehicles, CO wanted to run the last ex dismounted. Thankfully, we got 5 x LUVW in time to run mounted. We still had the issue of radios, however...only enough to do two dismounted OPs, no double bank comms in any vehicle, and again, the local Sigs sqn bailed us out.
> 
> Reminds me...during STRIDENT TRACER, I took a few pictures of LUVW I knew were sitting around Gagetown, in various lots I've run past on PT the last three years...there's over a dozen I COULD see just sitting there, gathering weeds. No tags or issue cards to be seen...I'd like to know what's happening with them, I used to have 17 in my compound at one time...


 Probably due to be  released and sold as surplus or used as hard targets.


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## blackberet17 (7 Oct 2014)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Probably due to be  released and sold as surplus or used as hard targets.



"...surplus..."

HA!


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## GK .Dundas (7 Oct 2014)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> "...surplus..."
> 
> HA!


                                  

Sadly I can honestly see that happening.


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## MilEME09 (7 Oct 2014)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Sadly I can honestly see that happening.



Funny thing is i've seen one for sale before out of germany


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## OldSolduer (7 Oct 2014)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> We have an LSVW CP vehicle waiting for us to pick it up from the local TEME.
> 
> We are taking a... very... long... time...



Lucky you...at least you have a LSVW CP

We have,,,,,nothing as a CP.


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## chrisf (8 Oct 2014)

Can you get a cube van? A few six foot tables, some barrack boxes, and some cargo straps and you can rig up a half decent cp, not great for off roading, but quite roomy. We had one rigged out with an nccis light det semi permanently, made a great little field commcen.

If you want to get fancy, bit of plywood on the walls, bit of unistrut on that, sky is the limit.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Oct 2014)

We had an Arty CP set up in a Deuce using plywood and 2x4's, that was back in the days of plotters and such. I am sure there are rules against such innovation nowadays. The whole assembly could be taken out and fitted to another truck in a couple of hours.


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## Brasidas (10 Oct 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Can you get a cube van? A few six foot tables, some barrack boxes, and some cargo straps and you can rig up a half decent cp, not great for off roading, but quite roomy. We had one rigged out with an nccis light det semi permanently, made a great little field commcen.
> 
> If you want to get fancy, bit of plywood on the walls, bit of unistrut on that, sky is the limit.



Superior to only having an MSVS and crash boxes after the MLs were taken away. Had an infantry unit upset that our "dismounted CP" couldn't safely leave the MS absent a loading dock or forklift.

Jim; a shop by the prison in Edmonton's seen a couple pre-TCCCS CPs go through some inspection and tweaking. Still no NAU's, so no remote kits, but there were and likely are some second-rate trucks that are moving around. Maybe there's hope?
;


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## blackberet17 (10 Oct 2014)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> ...Maybe there's hope?...



Hope springs eternal.

Drawback to comms/LS/CP availability is, at least from Armd Recce perspective, is while the MS-based CP was pretty good (for a September ex), it'll be bloody cold for our December, January and February ex's...and there was no step-up CP. We were so low on vehs and veh comms, we couldn't have one. So when we were stretched to the comms limit, tac pause, pack up and move.


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## Brasidas (10 Oct 2014)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> Hope springs eternal.
> 
> Drawback to comms/LS/CP availability is, at least from Armd Recce perspective, is while the MS-based CP was pretty good (for a September ex), it'll be bloody cold for our December, January and February ex's...and there was no step-up CP. We were so low on vehs and veh comms, we couldn't have one. So when we were stretched to the comms limit, tac pause, pack up and move.



Ouch. Cargo milcot with two manpack RRB and vixams?


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Oct 2014)

Get something like this http://www.tufport.com/utility-work







But get it with detachable legs so units can swap it out or even set up the cube with a generator to be the CP while the truck does something else. Truck breaks, unhook cube jack it up, pull truck away, back another truck under it.


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## George Wallace (10 Oct 2014)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> Hope springs eternal.
> 
> Drawback to comms/LS/CP availability is, at least from Armd Recce perspective, is while the MS-based CP was pretty good (for a September ex), it'll be bloody cold for our December, January and February ex's...and there was no step-up CP. We were so low on vehs and veh comms, we couldn't have one. So when we were stretched to the comms limit, tac pause, pack up and move.




Oh you young pups!  I am sure recceguy will have something to say about this as well.   ;D


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## Kirkhill (10 Oct 2014)

And we're back....

You have the Sea Can shelters coming on line.  A 350/3500 series pickup with a 25 to 30 foot trailer can haul that.  They could also haul the Weatherhaven TRECC shelters that are compatible with internal transport in a Chinook.  They could also transport Bv 206s and ATVs.
The Bv206s can also haul the trailers.  The Chinooks can haul the Bv206s.

In addition Hercs can haul the Bv206 and the Sea Cans











Intermodal transport comes to the Canadian Army


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## chrisf (10 Oct 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Get something like this http://www.tufport.com/utility-work
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or just take our existing kit and put it back onto a pickup? The pods haven't changed in a long time, just the vehicle underneath. Shouldn't* be a problem to swap the pod from a rusted out LSVW cp onto a MILCOT and away you go.


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Oct 2014)

In theory you are correct, but I am sure the army will find a way to make it harder than it needs to.


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## George Wallace (10 Oct 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Or just take our existing kit and put it back onto a pickup? The pods haven't changed in a long time, just the vehicle underneath. Shouldn't* be a problem to swap the pod from a rusted out LSVW cp onto a MILCOT and away you go.



Actually, if I remember correctly, the pods from the 5/4's did have to be modified for the LSVWs, so it is not always a simple one for one change.


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## Rocky Mountains (10 Oct 2014)

Reserves should be equipped with mostly civilian pattern vehicles and they should be repaired at civilian shops.  So what if everyone would miss the blackout driving experience but you don't get good blackout driving experience when walking.  I've seen 4 out of 28 vehicles serviceable with the rest waiting for parts or the will to actually repair an ancient vehicle.  The military service technicians don't seem to spend a lot of time fretting over a reserve training schedule.


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## George Wallace (10 Oct 2014)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> Reserves should be equipped with mostly civilian pattern vehicles and they should be repaired at civilian shops.  So what if everyone would miss the blackout driving experience but you don't get good blackout driving experience when walking.  I've seen 4 out of 28 vehicles serviceable with the rest waiting for parts or the will to actually repair an ancient vehicle.  The military service technicians don't seem to spend a lot of time fretting over a reserve training schedule.



For the most part, Reserve units, and many Reg Force units, have civilian pattern vehicles for administrative and non-tactical use.  It is also Trade dependent as to what vehicles a unit would require.  Even Infantry units need military pattern vehicles to deploy/transport troops on exercise within the Trg Area.  Civilian pattern buses/mini vans really don't cut it while doing tactical moves in one of our training areas.  I suppose all the Infantry units can send their B Vehicles off to a Service Bn and let them be the "Truckers" and "Bus Drivers", and I am sure that the Service Bns would love to have more vehicle.  It will not work very well for the Armour units and other units that need vehicles with good off road capabilities.


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## GnyHwy (10 Oct 2014)

MilCOTS are an interim band-aid at best. 

Yeah, they'll get you by, but if the cut is deep enough, you will still die.


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Oct 2014)

It's why the Brit's went with the Saxon's for their territorial units, all commercial parts, except for the armour bits. I know they were not that great but still they provided them with real armour that did end up getting used overseas.


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## Blackadder1916 (10 Oct 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually, if I remember correctly, the pods from the 5/4's did have to be modified for the LSVWs, so it is not always a simple one for one change.



I don't think that the pods salvaged from the 5/4s were greatly modified to fit the LSVWs as much as they were refurbished and updated to extend their life.  I know that a number of the CPs/Vans/Ambs in my unit at that time in the mid-1990s were in pretty poor condition (rust through, leaking, damage, electrical issues) when they were turned over to the project.  They had been in service shy of twenty years, about the same amount of time to present date since the LSVWs and refurbed pods came into service.  As for the actual installation, it probably wouldn't have been too difficult to swap out the 5/4 pods onto the LSVW chassis.  I remember looking at the underside of the LSVWs when the new vehicles with updated boxes arrived back then.  It had been of interest to me, not just as an OC who had to use them, but as a private (in the same unit in the 1970s) one of the first jobs I had been given after reporting into the unit was to to help (as dumb labour) the mechs install the boxes on the brand new 5/4's.  Knowing the history of how the pods were originally bolted onto the chassis (there had been a couple of instances of boxes falling of the 5/4's before the bolting arrangement was corrected), I was naturally curious that the connection was secure.


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## chrisf (10 Oct 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually, if I remember correctly, the pods from the 5/4's did have to be modified for the LSVWs, so it is not always a simple one for one change.



I can't imagine it was any sort of major modification, minor changes in bolting arrangements at most

Bit of minor welding and a bit of drilling holes at the most, stuff that could be done at the first line maintenance level with a parts kit and some simple drawings if so directed.

Anything mounted in an S250 shelter could be moved to a milcots or other pickup even more easily. Just dropped into the box, strap it down, and off you go.

I realize the military will always find a way to make it more complicated, but if they wanted a quick solution compatible with current vehicles, that's it.


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## MilEME09 (10 Oct 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Or just take our existing kit and put it back onto a pickup? The pods haven't changed in a long time, just the vehicle underneath. Shouldn't* be a problem to swap the pod from a rusted out LSVW cp onto a MILCOT and away you go.



or an MRT/URK for that matter just use the same frame as the linesmen MILCOT, should in theory be able to handle it, though i get the feeling we wouldn't be able to experiment untill the warrenty if gone on the MILCOTs.


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## dapaterson (10 Oct 2014)

The LUVW MilCOTS were purchased roughly a decade ago.

I'm pretty sure the warranty is up.

That said, LCMMs do maintain configuration control on fleets to keep the Bright Idea Fairies at bay - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and there are lots of dangerous people out there...


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## chrisf (10 Oct 2014)

The issue of the bright idea fairies and the milcots already came up with CMTC wainwright and their homemade "super-milcots"... dandy little truck after the mods too...

Certainly wasn't suggesting units start doing whatever they like with their trucks, just that moving them to another prime-mover doesn't need to be complicated.

For what it's worth, a lot of what was going around in rumors about the milcots and their warranty was pretty much just that, rumors.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Oct 2014)

Armoured Recce moves fast. It's our job to find the way for follow on forces at Brigade\ Div level to get through. We can't fiddle and fuck around with sea can CP units on the back of MSVS. We need fast, mobile, small and quick, step up CPs and alternates. Our job is to move forward asap, develop a route and give it to the Brigade\ Div CP. Two dual installation, *with amplifiers*, mounted in G-Wagons is all that's required. We don't require canvas, briefing tents, places for people to hang around drinking coffee and getting warm. We don't have time. Any stall on our part, causes the lead elements of the Brigade\ Div to climb up our ass and start a caterpillar effect down the whole line. It does nothing but present stationary targets. A true Commander, especially in our role, doesn't need huge mapboards, talc and multi functional pers with pretty coloured chinagraphs.

We had a LSVW CP unit until it was taken away. It was a resource hog. There was more admin time on paperwork wondering who had borrowed it, what they had broken, where it was and how we were going to get it back.

It was an anchor to what our role was. It became a camper for certain individual higher ups with a single subordinate to man the frequencies. It had a mast, and we could talk to the world, but we couldn't do speedy step ups, especially with said higher up wanting to stay in situ until the rest got out of range, then they'd employ a RRB. It was all ass backwards. It is not the forward elements that are required to stay in touch, the RRB moves to where THEY get comms. Likewise the CP. If they start losing comms with the scouts, THEY move to accommodate. CP's at a Sqn level, are a total waste of time and resources unless properly employed as mobile in a step up context, which again, can be done with a dual installation G-Wagon *WITH AMPLIFIERS*. I make the last point, again, simply because most Reserve G-Wagons have not got amplifiers and with the current setup cannot send beyond the range of modern walkie talkies. This has been ongoing ever since we had the radios mounted in Iltis. They just won't give us any, then they take the only vehicle capable of maintain contact over distance. :

I'm glad I'm retired. 8)


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## cupper (11 Oct 2014)

Recceguy brings up a good point about other units "borrowing" or commandeering assets that they feel they have a need for.

We experienced this constantly with Bn HQ using our ML mounted Maintenance Control Office pod (and prior to that the Deuce van) as the Bn CP. It created problems on longer exercises in that we couldn't carry additional parts and tools. And to add insult to injury, a couple of times we were required to remove the pod so the Tpt company could have an additional ML asset.


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Oct 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Armoured Recce moves fast. It's our job to find the way for follow on forces at Brigade\ Div level to get through. We can't fiddle and frig around with sea can CP units on the back of MSVS. We need fast, mobile, small and quick, step up CPs and alternates. Our job is to move forward asap, develop a route and give it to the Brigade\ Div CP. Two dual installation, *with amplifiers*, mounted in G-Wagons is all that's required. We don't require canvas, briefing tents, places for people to hang around drinking coffee and getting warm. We don't have time. Any stall on our part, causes the lead elements of the Brigade\ Div to climb up our *** and start a caterpillar effect down the whole line. It does nothing but present stationary targets. A true Commander, especially in our role, doesn't need huge mapboards, talc and multi functional pers with pretty coloured chinagraphs.
> 
> We had a LSVW CP unit until it was taken away. It was a resource hog. There was more admin time on paperwork wondering who had borrowed it, what they had broken, where it was and how we were going to get it back.
> 
> ...



In a perfect world a Reserve Squadron would have 4 troops. One in open top and partly mine-protected G-wagons. A Troop in the armoured G-wagons to provide support. A HQ troop in enclosed G-wagons with the radios and bits required and a Support troop in a larger 1 1/2 ton (Unimog) to provide POL, Rations, Ammo and support weapons.


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## George Wallace (12 Oct 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> In a perfect world a Reserve Squadron would have 4 troops. One in open top and partly mine-protected G-wagons. A Troop in the armoured G-wagons to provide support. A HQ troop in enclosed G-wagons with the radios and bits required and a Support troop in a larger 1 1/2 ton (Unimog) to provide POL, Rations, Ammo and support weapons.



That perfect world hasn't existed in the Reserve Squadron in over sixty years.  A Reserve Squadron has usually been lucky to field one Troop, sometimes two.  In fact, it usually takes the whole Reserve Regiment to field that/those Troops.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Oct 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> In a perfect world a Reserve Squadron would have 4 troops. One in open top and partly mine-protected G-wagons. A Troop in the armoured G-wagons to provide support. A HQ troop in enclosed G-wagons with the radios and bits required and a Support troop in a larger 1 1/2 ton (Unimog) to provide POL, Rations, Ammo and support weapons.



Colin,

I'd be interested as to where you found that TO&E for Reserve Recce. BTW, in a perfect world, we would also have an Assault troop.

In fact, the Sabre troops would all be mounted in the same equipment configuration, as all are required to fill in, and perform, all our main tasks according to the BTS. Mainly, AtoC, OPs, Retrograde Ops (RAS, Convoys Escort, etc). The SHQ portion is required to maintain comms with higher (and lower), supply, and security. All C\S, with the exception of the SSM replen group, require two radios and amps. One to speak on Sqn and Troop frequency and the other to speak directly to Div\ Brigade CP, the people we are actually working for and conducting the recce for. We've fallen into the trap of reporting to Regt\Sqn, then they pass up to Brigade\Div because we lack the range without the proper equipment. We typically only operate on one frequency because of lack of equipment and the fact we can, normally, only get two frequencies assigned.

As to the amount of troops and vehicles, the Regiment here, when in Iltis could field 3-4 full troops with an SHQ on a given weekend. We had the pers and vehicles to do it. Nowadays, we still have the pers, but nowhere near the vehicles, and equipment, to fill out. We went from 28 Iltis, to IIRC, 14 G-Wagons. Only two have dual installations and one amp. The rest have one radio and no amp. SHQ has gone from one LSVW CP, one SSM's LSVW, two MLs and two HLs to one SSM Milcot, and two MSVS (you can't mix POL with other cargo). We also have the problem of having to send most of our fleet to Meaford or Gagetown on a regular basis. Taskings that are CFTPO are normally one - two months. This stretches to approx. 4-5 including turning them in and receiving the back. That's providing Meaford or Gagetown haven't broke them, then it could take up to a year to get them back.


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## McG (12 Oct 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> SHQ has gone from one LSVW CP, one SSM's LSVW, two MLs and two HLs to one SSM Milcot, and two MSVS (you can't mix POL with other cargo).


How much of that reduction was over the past year with the B Fleet divestment?


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Oct 2014)

Most of it I believe. Mind, some of it disappeared before I retired in July 13.


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## Old EO Tech (12 Oct 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> How much of that reduction was over the past year with the B Fleet divestment?



I can't speak to what specifically happened in PRes units, but there was no intelligent decisions from CA/Divs on the B fleet divestment, Bde's and units were just told to cut 50% and it was up to them to balance unit needs and maintain at least 1 Echelon per unit..... A end result that Bde's will have a very tough time projecting units out far from home on domestic ops, especially with us out west with a very big AOR.  And we are 6 years from LVM Project even starting to deliver replacement vehicles :-/


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## McG (12 Oct 2014)

Indeed.  I consider what 1 CMBG rolled to Calgary and High River for flood support last year, and wonder what could be done this year now that half of that is gone.


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Oct 2014)

I made it up on the fly but was thinking about what I have seen in the reserves and combined it with the Brit system of a "light troop" (ferret) medium troop (fox) and firesupport troop (Saladin). I tried to make it more realistic for us. I recall back in the day BCR had 6 GPMG armed jeeps divided into 2 troops and a HQ troop in 2 x 5/4 and a support troop with a deuce and van. The BCD's had the Cougars, so there is your fire support troop


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## blackberet17 (14 Oct 2014)

About a decade ago, we managed a 3xtp Sqn, all in Iltis, with a full Ech (I can't recall all the Ech vehs).

Two years ago, for our first fall ex, we fielded 2x5-veh tps, all in LUVW. BC was in a milcot with a trailer from the Sigs. Ech was composed of 1xmil, 2xMS, and maybe the Cube van we had at the time.

First fall ex this year...1x6-veh tp, all in LUVW minus the tp ldr in a milcot. Ech was 1xmilcot. We did have an assault gp...with an MS for tpt.

Weeeeee.

Last I checked with Tpt, we had 6xLUVW in Gagetown, in various stages of "waiting". One of the objectives of Ex STRIDENT TRACER XIV was the RTU of vehs. We came back with 5, not 12 as we were apparently supposed to at end ex.

As recceguy noted, we too have the pers. At this time, we could field 2x8-veh tps, plus an Ech, plus an Opfor of 8 pers, if not more. We just need the ****ing vehicles to do so.


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## Kirkhill (14 Oct 2014)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> About a decade ago, we managed a 3xtp Sqn, all in Iltis, with a full Ech (I can't recall all the Ech vehs).
> 
> Two years ago, for our first fall ex, we fielded 2x5-veh tps, all in LUVW. BC was in a milcot with a trailer from the Sigs. Ech was composed of 1xmil, 2xMS, and maybe the Cube van we had at the time.
> 
> ...



Do you need Million Dollar Buggies (TAPV) - or even $100,000 G Wagons?

Would $25000 Jeeps and Milcots get the job done for you?


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Oct 2014)

Going by this brochure Mercedes offers a soft top version which would be great for recce and a 6 wheeled version to replace the LSVW, not to mention a more heavily armoured version. I would say that your support troop needs a larger equally capable off-road vehicle equipped with a good winch to be used to extract your troop vehicles without waiting for Svc Battalion who will be to far back anyways to respond in time.

http://www.mb-military-vehicles.com/fileadmin/downloads/G_ClassMilitary_en.pdf


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## McG (14 Oct 2014)

Now you are not talking about the fleet we have, but the fleet we need next:
http://army.ca/forums/threads/100166.0.html


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