# The need for tactical highly visible rank (From:Re-Royalization)



## dapaterson (25 Aug 2013)

High visibility ranks for tactical clothing.

Am I the only one to think that there's a foundational disconnect there?


----------



## cupper (25 Aug 2013)

And it will be photoluminescent so that there will be no confusion at night. :


----------



## Kirkhill (25 Aug 2013)

Just to prevent confusion:  All officers will carry umbrellas.


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (25 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> High visibility ranks for tactical clothing.
> 
> Am I the only one to think that there's a foundational disconnect there?



Perhaps you may very well be. The Brits are already doing it:





Alternately, they do have black rank insignia for those special occasions during which headshots are not required:


----------



## JorgSlice (25 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> High visibility ranks for tactical clothing.
> 
> Am I the only one to think that there's a foundational disconnect there?



They're for Garrison use from what I was told. So you don't jacked up for not addressing/saluting until the last possible moment


----------



## MikeL (25 Aug 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> They're for Garrison use from what I was told. So you don't jacked up for not addressing/saluting until the last possible moment



The power points going around(that I've seen) make no mention of the high vis rank and name tapes being garrison only.

IMO, this is a non issue as when you are in the field/outside the wire your FPV, and tac vest/LBE covers all that up(if you are even wearing it).

I've seen some photos of troops wearing a patch on their sleeve in Afghanistan lately that has their rank; patches were subdued. Not sure if this is a issue item, or a CP Gear purchase, etc. If this is a issue patch, I assume it may be produced again for future deployments as requires.


----------



## PuckChaser (25 Aug 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I've seen some photos of troops wearing a patch on their sleeve in Afghanistan lately that has their rank; patches were subdued. Not sure if this is a issue item, or a CP Gear purchase, etc. If this is a issue patch, I assume it may be produced again for future deployments as requires.



Manufactured in Kabul (local purchase) for wear with the hybrid hot weather shirt, if it was any Op Attention pics you saw.


----------



## dapaterson (25 Aug 2013)

We already have a perfectly serviceable uniform with perfectly visible ranks.

And if officers are so insecure that a salute coming a fraction of a second later than they want is grounds for panic, we don't need high-vis ranks; we need better officers.


----------



## George Wallace (25 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And if officers are so insecure that a salute coming a fraction of a second later than they want is grounds for panic, we don't need high-vis ranks; we need better officers.



This is one way the NCMs measure the worth of an officer.


----------



## a_majoor (26 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> We already have a perfectly serviceable uniform with perfectly visible ranks.
> 
> And if officers are so insecure that a salute coming a fraction of a second later than they want is grounds for panic, we don't need high-vis ranks; we need better officers.



And would officers kindly stop saying "Thank you" when saluted; you are not receiving a gift.... :rage:


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (26 Aug 2013)

Thank you for the clarification.  ;D


----------



## myself.only (26 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> We already have a perfectly serviceable uniform with perfectly visible ranks.
> 
> And if officers are so insecure that a salute coming a fraction of a second later than they want is grounds for panic, we don't need high-vis ranks; we need better officers.





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is one way the NCMs measure the worth of an officer.



As a CIC officer I am loathe to get into the subject of paying compliments on this forum... and I agree with the first statement.

However, the remainder seems to focus solely on the perspective of compliments paid to "insecure" officers by NCMs. 
I don't know if there's any question that the NCMs can't see that a slip-on has an officer's bars vice chevrons.
So NCMs may not figure directly into this.
However, from the officer's POV the paying of compliments to fellow officers requires you do some extra observation: recognize how many bars there are, and whether they're narrow or broad etc.
While IMHO this additional filtering doesn't support the hi-vis ranks on operational clothing and clearly does not merit any panic, I wouldn't call it insecurity.

Having said that, obviously NCOs are stakeholders in this "issue".
In fact, working in a busy armoury, I note that quite often the LCol I'm saluting isn't waited with bated breath to see if I'm paying compliments as I pass... but the CWO at his elbow is watching me like a hawk.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is one way the NCMs measure the worth of an officer.



In my armories, we have a rule that once you're in the place and at your unit, the headress comes off and stays off except for parades.

We have a consensus amongst all ranks that there is far too much saluting when troops should be training etc. 

That does not mean proper compliments are not paid.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 Aug 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> And would officers kindly stop saying "Thank you" when saluted; you are not receiving a gift.... :rage:



I guess some of them have a different take on what "shall acknowledge" means.   ;D


----------



## kratz (26 Aug 2013)

I worked at a cadet camp this summer as one of a handful of NCMs, with 72 officers.

I told the RSM, "I would be damned if my arm was tied to my head all summer".

I paid respects as required, but I went to great lengths in chosing meal times,
changing into civies and other known methods to reduce the need to salute all the time.


----------



## FJAG (26 Aug 2013)

kratz said:
			
		

> I worked at a cadet camp this summer as one of a handful of NCMs, with 72 officers.
> 
> I told the RSM, "I would be damned if my arm was tied to my head all summer".
> 
> ...



That's weak.

Officers are usually quite outnumbered by the troops and are constantly returning salutes; probably much more often then you ever have to give one. 

Quite frankly being saluted is not a big ego boost thing and by far the most of us would just as soon not have to be returning salutes all the time. But we do it. Its the expected and the right thing to do.


----------



## myself.only (26 Aug 2013)

kratz said:
			
		

> I worked at a cadet camp this summer as one of a handful of NCMs, with 72 officers.
> 
> I told the RSM, "I would be damned if my arm was tied to my head all summer".
> 
> ...



Well 72 does seem a little high especially if they're so concentrated that you're routinely running into them... but I can't speak for camps and their logic. (Although I expect the ratio sounds off because the bulk of positions were filled by Staff cadets not CAF NCMs and really that's a good thing as the msn is their development.)

Still... 72... one would hope taking headdress off inside your work place + "once in the morning" etc. would cut down the arm exercise for all involved and keep the focus on trg and tasks at hand. But, it sounds like you had the matter well in hand with some tactful and sound methods.

Anyway, as a sidenote, let me express thanks to you for taking that tasking in support of the camp. Aside from the experience and skill set you contributed, the cadets' positive interaction with CAF personnel outside the CIC is of incalculable benefit to the program.


----------



## myself.only (26 Aug 2013)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Quite frankly being saluted is not a big ego boost thing and by far the most of us would just as soon not have to be returning salutes all the time. But we do it. Its the expected and the right thing to do.



+1 there.


----------



## kratz (26 Aug 2013)

The numbers are accurate, I maintained them.

It was a regional gliding school, so almost all the instructors were officers.


----------



## JorgSlice (26 Aug 2013)

Somewhere like Vernon camp will have at least 100 CIC officers on garrison at any given time. 

It's bit of a nightmare sometimes.


----------



## Pusser (26 Aug 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> They're for Garrison use from what I was told. So you don't jacked up for not addressing/saluting until the last possible moment



Perhaps the best way to address this problem would be to stop wearing clothes that were designed for running through the bushes and jumping in the mud, unless you're running through the bushes and jumping in the mud.  

It boggles the mind to see soldiers wearing out the seats of the most expensive uniform in the inventory, sitting at a desk in an air-conditioned office.


----------



## ArmyRick (26 Aug 2013)

Well, maybe we can come up with a dark green pants, tan shirt and stupid camo pattern jacket for wear in the garrisson that way we could save.......Wait a minute, we TRIED that. No thanks! Next idea?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Aug 2013)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Well, maybe we can come up with a dark green pants, tan shirt and stupid camo pattern jacket for wear in the garrisson that way we could save.......Wait a minute, we TRIED that. No thanks! Next idea?



Bus driver uniforms? ;D


----------



## kratz (26 Aug 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Bus driver uniforms? ;D



recceguy you're a smart a..... wait, it's almost true.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Aug 2013)

How about dark green pants, light green short-sleeved shirt?  With a sweater for winter wear?  How would that work for office jobs?


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (26 Aug 2013)

With a choice of oxford shoes or boots and a black or a green tie. Also, a nice new Yukon hat, a winter jacket and warm boots for when it gets nippy out in the winter time!


----------



## tomydoom (26 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> How about dark green pants, light green short-sleeved shirt?  With a sweater for winter wear?  How would that work for office jobs?


I was issued that once, a very long time ago. The lagoon green shirt was lovely.


----------



## ballz (26 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> How about dark green pants, light green short-sleeved shirt?  With a sweater for winter wear?  How would that work for office jobs?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvSupdP3Ijw


----------



## Towards_the_gap (26 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is one way the NCMs measure the worth of an officer.



I never had a problem spotting officers a mile away in Cadpat....

The goofy smile, trail of lost/broken kit, finger in nose and cloud of self-importance was always a dead giveaway!!!


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Aug 2013)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Perhaps the best way to address this problem would be to stop wearing clothes that were designed for running through the bushes and jumping in the mud, unless you're running through the bushes and jumping in the mud.
> 
> It boggles the mind to see soldiers wearing out the seats of the most expensive uniform in the inventory, sitting at a desk in an air-conditioned office.



Then maybe we need a garrison dress......not gonna happen.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Aug 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Bus driver uniforms? ;D



Tried that too, I hated that uniform


----------



## Grunt_031 (27 Aug 2013)

> Then maybe we need a garrison dress......not gonna happen.



We already have a garrison dress it is called DEU. What ever happened to Office/HQ pers wearing them in the office. That is why they got a higher point allocation through Logistiks. 
There is no requirement to re invent the wheel. In garrison, it is DEU and Coveralls and during training/operations it is CADPAT.


----------



## armyvern (27 Aug 2013)

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> We already have a garrison dress it is called DEU. What ever happened to Office/HQ pers wearing them in the office. That is why they got a higher point allocation through Logistiks.
> There is no requirement to re invent the wheel. In garrison, it is DEU and Coveralls and during training/operations it is CADPAT.



Only the pers who work in higher-HQs that are required to wear DEUs daily get higher Logistik points, not every pers in every HQ.  Some do not get higher points and that is why they do not wear them.


----------



## George Wallace (27 Aug 2013)

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> We already have a garrison dress it is called DEU. What ever happened to Office/HQ pers wearing them in the office. That is why they got a higher point allocation through Logistiks.
> There is no requirement to re invent the wheel. In garrison, it is DEU and Coveralls and during training/operations it is CADPAT.



In some locations, that is the dress of the day for WO and above.  Sgt and below wear CADPAT for "normal" work days.  

Coveralls questions:

1.  What do you wear under them;

2.  What do you wear prior to putting them on, and after taking them off;

3.  What do you wear to the Mess hall for lunch; 

4.  What do you wear if called up to a HQ;  

5.  What do you wear as accoutrements  (rank, belt, etc.); 

6.  How do you wear them through the four seasons; and

7.  What Order of Dress will this become?


 >


----------



## Pusser (27 Aug 2013)

I wasn't really advocating the return of garrison dress.  There were a few epic fails on that one (the ridiculous DPM jacket being the best example).  And I certainly never advocated coveralls for regular wear (although probably a good choice for greasing engines).  In fact, I have no problem with wearing cadpat or NCD for dirty work.  My point is that working in an office is not dirty work and that there is no reason for personnel working there not to wear service dress (i.e. DEU).  If personnel do not have the appropriate point allocation to do this, then adjust the allocation accordingly - this is still likely cheaper than replacing cadpat that is wearing out sooner than it should.

This idea that folks working in "operational" headquarters need to wear "operational" clothing in order to create and maintain an "operational" mindset is complete nonsense.  Wearing a cape and mask won't make me Batman anymore than not wearing it won't.


----------



## CombatDoc (27 Aug 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> I never had a problem spotting officers a mile away in Cadpat....
> 
> The goofy smile, trail of lost/broken kit, finger in nose and cloud of self-importance was always a dead giveaway!!!


An attitude like this says much more about your professionalism as an NCM than it does about Officers needing to be recognized for saluting purposes.


----------



## Grunt_031 (27 Aug 2013)

This is not rocket science.

These are not worn as a order of dress but for maintanace, other dirty work, some training.

Coveralls questions:

1.  What do you wear under them; issue underwear and t-shirt, long under wear winter.
2.  What do you wear prior to putting them on, and after taking them off; Your DEU's or CADPAT or PT Gear, Dress of the Day
3.  What do you wear to the Mess hall for lunch; Dress of the Day
4.  What do you wear if called up to a HQ;  Dress of the Day
5.  What do you wear as accoutrements  (rank, belt, etc.); Nothing they are coveralls and worn in the unit.  
6.  How do you wear them through the four seasons; and Like any other form of clothing.
7.  What Order of Dress will this become? I am sure some Staff Officer or DSM would drool over this opportunity!


----------



## jpjohnsn (27 Aug 2013)

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> This is not rocket science.
> 
> These are not worn as a order of dress but for maintanace, other dirty work, some training.
> 
> ...


Back in the day, once I was issued my kit, whenever I had to wear coveralls, I had to wear more than issue underwear under them.  They are meant as a cover for clothing and not clothing in itself.  You should be able to slip in and out of coveralls, as required, without having to hit a changeroom first.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Aug 2013)

Is highly visible rank really that much of an issue?

After we tackle this important problem I'd like pants without holes in them- maybe even pants that match my shirt.


----------



## George Wallace (27 Aug 2013)

.....and NCMs wore their metal rank badges on the collars.   ;D


----------



## dapaterson (27 Aug 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Is highly visible rank really that much of an issue?
> 
> After we tackle this important problem I'd like pants without holes in them- maybe even pants that match my shirt.



It's pissing away time & money on something unneeded.  Imagine if instead that effort and money was spent to acquire and maintain CADPAT  - and if people sitting in offices, wearing out CADPAT ass-first were in stead in DEU.  Then clothing stores might have your size.


----------



## Old Sweat (27 Aug 2013)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> Back in the day, once I was issued my kit, whenever I had to wear coveralls, I had to wear more than issue underwear under them.  They are meant as a cover for clothing and not clothing in itself.  You should be able to slip in and out of coveralls, as required, without having to hit a changeroom first.



In the bad, old days before combat clothing was issued in 1964, coveralls were often used as dress of the day in garrison. In that case we wore underwear and tshirts underneath them, but also wore spit shined boots, puttees and weights along with slipons with badges of rank and web or stable belts. Officer and sergeants and above were in battledress. When we went to the field, we all wore coveralls with whatever underneath if summer dress was not in effect. That at least was the practice in 4 RCHA and probably was not universal in the artillery, let alone the army.

In those days there was not enough winter gear - parkas, mukluks, wind pants, etc - to outfit all the units, so it was pooled and drawn for winter indoc, etc. If  we were going to the field in cold weather, it was usual to wear bush pants and a shirt along with sweater high neck (put on backwards to keep cold air off the neck and chest) underneath. For footwear the usual was the issue overshoes with as many pairs of socks, grey, wool on as could fit inside the footwear. And no, nobody was fool enough to check to see if the socks all matched. For headgear either the cap, peaked, winter or the issue kakhi toque was worn, and some lucky souls were issued sheepskin coats.

Coveralls were considered kosher then. I know I was clad in a pair when I was ordered to report to the adjutant ASAP. He then told me I had been an officer cadet for ten days and started me off on my trip through officer land.


----------



## Journeyman (27 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's pissing away time & money on something unneeded.


Yes, NDHQ's ADM (Fixing the Unbroken) has had a very busy year -- _especially_ within the Directorate of Useless Fashion, Pins, and Badges.   :not-again:


----------



## MAJONES (27 Aug 2013)

While we're at it; could we go back to blue flight suits and gold ranks on the shoulders?   ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Aug 2013)

I always liked this story about Chesty Puller:

Puller is loved by enlisted U.S. Marines for his constant actions to improve their working conditions. Puller insisted upon good equipment and discipline; once he came upon a second lieutenant who had ordered an enlisted man to salute him 100 times for missing a salute. Puller told the lieutenant, "You were absolutely correct in making him salute you 100 times lieutenant, but you know that an officer must return every salute he receives. Now return them all, and I will keep count."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller


----------



## FJAG (27 Aug 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> In the bad, old days before combat clothing was issued in 1964, coveralls were often used as dress of the day in garrison.



And if I remember correctly, mine had no rank sewn on them nor a place for slip ons (they hadn't been invented yet although the truly anal retentive ones would safety pin their brassard to them.)  >

op:


----------



## Rifleman62 (27 Aug 2013)

> Coveralls questions:
> 
> 1.  What do you wear under them;
> 
> ...



Flight suit?


----------



## dapaterson (27 Aug 2013)

I see our Yorkshiremen are out in force.


"Why, when I went to law school, the textbook consisted of two stone tablets."


----------



## Kirkhill (27 Aug 2013)

You had stone tablets?? Luxury.

We had to memorize everything.  Tell that to the youngsters these days and they wouldn't believe you.


----------



## Rifleman62 (27 Aug 2013)

FJAG said:
			
		

> And if I remember correctly, mine had no rank sewn on them nor a place for slip ons (they hadn't been invented yet although the truly anal retentive ones would safety pin their brassard to them.)  >
> 
> op:



I would not say retentive. All L/Cpls and above wore kharki (Bush uniform) armlets with rank and unit flash on the right sleeve, held by a safety pin. The retentive would blacken the safety pin!

We wore black coveralls all the time for training until about 1966. On maint days with 2 PPCLI, Germany 1968, black coveralls and bush armlet.

The wearing of black coveralls was instrumental with the teaching of a lesson in the summer of 1963 at Shilo. "Never go to ground on a forward slope". Our section was leading, and the Second World War Vet who was an umpire told us to look around. Sure enough, a bunch of black dots/lumps on the slope behind us. Easy targets.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Aug 2013)

As late as 82-84 we ran SYEP courses with them wearing coveralls and 51 pattern webbing. Actually a returns to khaki workdress for garrison might work and reduce the demand and wear on the Cadpats. Combat clothing supplies and availability has always seem to be an issue.


----------



## Rifleman62 (27 Aug 2013)

Photos:

1. Sheepskin Coats

2. Group with bush jacket sleeves rolled down (rare). Center of photo, black coveralls. Armlet visible on L/Cpl on right. Actually L/Cpls in Rifle Regts wear two stripes. A Cpl or now MCpl wore two stripes and a designator above aka the current maple leaf position. The QOR wore their powder horn, we wore the rampaging devil facing forward. PS: a 26 Radio Set

Bush (summer dress) Jackets were heavy cotton fabric. A ***** to iron. My experience with Bush Jackets was that they were worn on more "formal" parades as they were "dressier" (see next photo). Bush Jackets were sometimes ordered to be worn if it was cold. A misnomer, as sleeves were always rolled up, and they were more draftier that shirts, so they had the opposite effect. Getting your 37 or 51 pattern web belt around neatly was also a problem.

3. Bush Jackets order of dress. Two armlets visible.

4. Infantry WO1 Wrist Strap. The strap fitted like a watch strap, worn on the right wrist by WO1 and WO2's in Bush Uniform, shirt or Jacket. Some regiments had regimentized these two badges.  I personally loved this designator.


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (27 Aug 2013)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> You had stone tablets?? Luxury.
> 
> We had to memorize everything.  Tell that to the youngsters these days and they wouldn't believe you.



That's right, Obadiah. Who would've thought 40 years ago that we'd be sitting here drinking Chateau de Chasselas debating the merits of high visibility ranks?  Aye, we were poor back then; so poor we couldn't afford rank braids on our cuffs so we had to wear insignia we borrowed from the Brits. Aye, we were poor; but we were happy! In fact, we were happy because we were poor!

That's right, we couldn't afford 30$ of tailoring every time we got a promotion so we wore pips and crowns. Now, tell the young people of today that and they wouldn't believe you!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (27 Aug 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Photos:
> 
> 1. Sheepskin Coats
> 
> ...



Been there, wore it all.

The Infantry weren't the only ones to wear wrist rank. I wore mine until I retired this year.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane


----------



## Towards_the_gap (27 Aug 2013)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> An attitude like this says much more about your professionalism as an NCM than it does about Officers needing to be recognized for saluting purposes.



Firstly, I was an nco, as in SNCO. Secondly....it was a joke. Sorry if the sarcasm wasn't evident.  :


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Nov 2013)

Ohh I think we're in for a treat. I just seen a high visibility name tab, it was shinny white. Looked fabulous with our green uniform.


----------



## DAA (20 Nov 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Ohh I think we're in for a treat. I just seen a high visibility name tab, it was shinny white. Looked fabulous with our green uniform.



I just got mine yesterday.  Tonight, I am going to wait until it's dark.  Then hold them up close to a light bulb for a few minutes, then turn the light out to see if they "glow in the dark" like a wrist watch does!!!


----------



## Danjanou (20 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Bus driver uniforms? ;D



With ascots , for the love of the little baby jesus don't forget the ascots  8)


----------



## ArmyRick (20 Nov 2013)

I dread the thought of returning to expensive and not necessary work or garrison dress ideas.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Nov 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> With ascots , for the love of the little baby jesus don't forget the ascots  8)



I'm not sure what an ascot is but if it stops someone from calling me by the wrong rank by accident then it's a vital piece of kit.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Nov 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what an ascot is but if it stops someone from calling me by the wrong rank by accident then it's a vital piece of kit.



The ascot. It's around his neck.

Trust me. No one will be able to pull it off like Sir Michael while wearing an issue one


----------



## a_majoor (20 Nov 2013)

Obviously these high visibility rank badges need an instruction booklet as well.

Was range staff in Kingston back in Sep and several high ranking officers had their high visibility slip ons attached.....











to their tac vests.

Sigh.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (20 Nov 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Obviously these high visibility rank badges need an instruction booklet as well.
> 
> Was range staff in Kingston back in Sep and several high ranking officers had their high visibility slip ons attached.....
> 
> ...




Nothing screams insecurity more than having a shiny badge attached to a piece of kit you'll likely never wear for real just so people don't forget how important you are.


----------



## Privateer (20 Nov 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> I just got mine yesterday.  Tonight, I am going to wait until it's dark.  Then hold them up close to a light bulb for a few minutes, then turn the light out to see if they "glow in the dark" like a wrist watch does!!!



Pics, please!


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Nov 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Tonight, I am going to wait until it's dark.





			
				Privateer said:
			
		

> Pics, please!


----------



## Lightguns (20 Nov 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> With ascots , for the love of the little baby jesus don't forget the ascots  8)



Still got mine. Figure to wear it some Remembrance Day with my green PPCLI Association Blazer.


----------



## Privateer (20 Nov 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

>



Amazing:  I'm looking at your pic with NVG's and I still don't see it.  ;D

OK, any pics in daylight?


----------



## FJAG (20 Nov 2013)

Privateer said:
			
		

> Amazing:  I'm looking at your pic with NVG's and I still don't see it.  ;D
> 
> OK, any pics in daylight?



 :rofl:


----------



## Danjanou (20 Nov 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what an ascot is but if it stops someone from calling me by the wrong rank by accident then it's a vital piece of kit.




Man do I feel old 






apparently everything is on the Internet now http://uotw.heavenforum.org/t496-ascots-of-the-canadian-military


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Bus driver uniforms? ;D



In the Coast guard, we looked exactly like bus driver, quite annoying to take public transit. Garrison dress was just coming in when I was leaving and replacing work dress. I thought it looked far better than the old work dress and was far more distinctive and met the purpose of making the military actually look like the military and not just another civil servant in a generic government issued clothing.


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Nov 2013)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I dread the thought of returning to expensive and not necessary work or garrison dress ideas.


STFU Rick.....the good idea Faeries are everywhere


----------



## ArmyRick (21 Nov 2013)

Marking time now, RSM. I will say nothing.  :-X


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Nov 2013)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Marking time now, RSM. I will say nothing.  :-X



Mom more talk about g______n dress. As Monty Python would say "it's silly."


----------



## Shamrock (21 Nov 2013)

Privateer said:
			
		

> Amazing:  I'm looking at your pic with NVG's and I still don't see it.  ;D
> 
> OK, any pics in daylight?



Turn the IR on, you'll make out a blob that looks like light reflecting off a monitor.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2013)

The Comd RCAF was in town recently and had on some shiny new wings;  I thought maybe it was just 'because he is the Comd' or something but I've heard since that there will be 'new' flight/aircrew badges like the ones the CAS has on in the pic below for all of us.  They will be for wear 'day to day' with the subdued badges for 'operational theatre'.  I've also heard the same type thing will happen for Sqn, aircraft/type badges, etc.   ???

The pic below doesn't show them all that well but you can see they are definitely different than the standard ones.  Seeing them up close when he was in the Sqn briefing room, I'll keep the ones I have if I can.  It's not like they're hard to see as they are.  

As a taxpayer and serving mbr, I hope we stop spending money on this type of stuff when I see things "possible troop reductions for budget reasons" in the news.


----------



## dimsum (21 Nov 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The Comd RCAF was in town recently and had on some shiny new wings;  I thought maybe it was just 'because he is the Comd' or something but I've heard since that there will be 'new' flight/aircrew badges like the ones the CAS has on in the pic below for all of us.  They will be for wear 'day to day' with the subdued badges for 'operational theatre'.  I've also heard the same type thing will happen for Sqn, aircraft/type badges, etc.   ???
> 
> The pic below doesn't show them all that well but you can see they are definitely different than the standard ones.  Seeing them up close when he was in the Sqn briefing room, I'll keep the ones I have if I can.  It's not like they're hard to see as they are.
> 
> As a taxpayer and serving mbr, I hope we stop spending money on this type of stuff when I see things "possible troop reductions for budget reasons" in the news.



While normally I'd agree that unit/public funds would be best used elsewhere, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't isn't Sqn-related stuff paid out of pocket when you join?  I've paid for all my sqn badges, aircrew nametags, etc. so it's not like the Sqn/CF had anything to do with it.  From what I remember, full-colour v. green/tan badges even cost the same at the Kit Shop.

Then again, I may have just gotten stiffed every few years.   


*Edit:  Me no use grammar good.


----------



## Journeyman (21 Nov 2013)

It's about time we could see the wings on those two 'subdued' orange guys in the pic.   :nod:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Nov 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> While normally I'd agree that unit/public funds would be best used elsewhere, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't isn't Sqn-related stuff paid out of pocket when you join?  I've paid for all my sqn badges, aircrew nametags, etc. so it's not like the Sqn/CF had anything to do with it.  From what I remember, full-colour v. green/tan badges even cost the same at the Kit Shop.
> 
> Then again, I may have just gotten stiffed every few years.
> 
> ...



Ya, not sure if they are the issued one or purchased, not much info other than 'those are the new wings coming'.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Nov 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> It's about time we could see the wings on those two 'subdued' orange guys in the pic.   :nod:



Looks like one of them is listening so intently, he closed his eyes so his ears might work better.  Head tilted to allow max sound to reach ears.  Well done.


----------



## Lightguns (22 Nov 2013)

I am more concerned about the haircuts the officers are sporting. My God, they look like NCOs , grow some hair and look like officers Gentlemen.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Nov 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I am more concerned about the haircuts the officers are sporting. My God, they look like NCOs



Did you really, really just type that?


----------



## Scott (22 Nov 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I am more concerned about the haircuts the officers are sporting. My God, they look like NCOs , grow some hair and look like officers Gentlemen.



And yet the sun did rise today...


----------



## PPCLI Guy (22 Nov 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I am more concerned about the haircuts the officers are sporting. My God, they look like NCOs , grow some hair and look like officers Gentlemen.



At last!  I found him!!!!


----------



## bick (22 Nov 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I am more concerned about the haircuts the officers are sporting. My God, they look like NCOs , grow some hair and look like officers Gentlemen.



Wow, sounds like someone needs to get out of CTC and back to reality.


----------



## dimsum (22 Nov 2013)

Did the Army just accuse the Air Force of having hair that's too short?  Is it April already?  

Back (ish) to the topic....so, when are these supposed new 1 and 2-piece flying suits and jackets coming in?   >


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Nov 2013)

New jackets and pants (ACE) are out.  Improvement from previous IMO.  Gortex lined.  Pants are easy on/off and would be great duck blind kit.  Jacket has zip-out liner.  Tuck-away hood.  Issue 2 of each.  

Its the weekend, if you want I can post a few pics.  'Cause I lead such an exciting life.   8)


----------



## dimsum (22 Nov 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> New jackets and pants (ACE) are out.  Improvement from previous IMO.  Gortex lined.  Pants are easy on/off and would be great duck blind kit.  Jacket has zip-out liner.  Tuck-away hood.  Issue 2 of each.
> 
> Its the weekend, if you want I can post a few pics.  'Cause I lead such an exciting life.   8)



Ah hell, why not.  Might as well let you have a bit of excitement.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Nov 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I am more concerned about the haircuts the officers are sporting. My God, they look like NCOs , grow some hair and look like officers Gentlemen.



Don't be jealous that some people take some pride in presenting a military appearance to accompany their operational posture.  As others have noted, you seem to have an archaic view of maintaining segregationalist views based on appearance alone.  Care to point us to a reference that directs officers and NCMs (perhaps that's the word you meant to use, not NCO?) different standards for hair cuts and groomin, or were you just proving to us how far removed from an operational mindset you are? ???


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2013)

This style could be a tough choice to justify, especially if you face an enemy with a predilection for scalping


----------



## ModlrMike (25 Nov 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Don't be jealous that some people take some pride in presenting a military appearance to accompany their operational posture.  As others have noted, you seem to have an archaic view of maintaining segregationalist views based on appearance alone.  Care to point us to a reference that directs officers and NCMs (perhaps that's the word you meant to use, not NCO?) different standards for hair cuts and groomin, or were you just proving to us how far removed from an operational mindset you are? ???



I'm hoping that he forgot to include the sarcasm smiley. Of course he could just be channeling his inner Strat.


----------



## JesseWZ (25 Nov 2013)

I could be wrong, but I took it as sarcasm. I didn't even think twice about it and laughed about it a little as well. Perhaps a  > would have been appropriate to place behind it...


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Nov 2013)

So if we play the "it was really sarcasm" game, what  does that mean, then?  That short haircuts don't an operational/competent officer make? Some of those young officers in the photo were Aurora pilots and ACSOs who, along with their NCM FE and AESOP brethren, were flying aircraft well into crappy airspace feet dry over Libya to guide CAS and SCAR missions.  Either way, it is a narrow-minded view that symbolizes a good measure of RCAIS*. :



*rectal-cranial auto-insertion syndrome


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 Nov 2013)

All right folks.

Time to put a cap on this and get back to the thread subject.

---Staff---


----------



## Sharp (25 Nov 2013)

Just like in the movie "A Few Good Men", one of the Marines upon arriving to Cuba had told the two main characters that "if the Cubans spot someone wearing white, they'll think its a high ranking official and wouldn't mind taking a shot".

I don't think you want to be targeted for being a high ranking officer/ncm.

In this case, it's the highly visible patch, rather than a full uniform. Just a thought, no need for hate comments to arise.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Nov 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Some of those young officers in the photo were Aurora pilots and ACSOs who, along with their NCM FE and AESOP brethren, were flying aircraft well into crappy airspace feet dry over Libya to guide CAS and SCAR missions.



Thought I'd throw this one out there for anyone who might have a few minutes to spare.

Punching Above Its Weight


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2013)

Just in case we need to restate the obvious reason underlying the need for subdued rank insignia:

Reducing the risk of damage

During the stalking phase of his attack a sniper will, if time allows, try to identify high-value targets such as senior officers or senior NCOs. He will do this by closely observing the behavior of the people in front of him. His intention is to identify who is in charge and then prepare to fire at them. It naturally follows that leaders should attempt to blend into the background by avoiding anything that distinguishes them from the most junior soldiers and attracts the interest of a sniper. In order to reduce a sniper's ability to damage the chain of command, doctrine and equipment need to prevent any observable "leadership" behaviors and signs. 

Insignia, e.g. rank insignia, should be subdued (dark/black as opposed to bright colors), camouflage colors on camouflage, battle-dress identical for all ranks, military servants and rank-based luxuries (like saluting) avoided in forward areas, and commands and instruction should be given discreetly. Additionally, other acts such as looking at maps, using a radio, pointing authoritatively, abstaining from menial tasks and other forms of body language can betray an officer's rank. However, it is important to emphasize that if a sniper cannot identify an officer or NCO, he may then select any person that he has a good chance of hitting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-sniper_tactics


----------



## Journeyman (25 Nov 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Just in case we need to restate the obvious reason underlying the need for subdued rank insignia....


Yes, but that refers to military situations as opposed to uniformed bureaucracies, and we know which takes precedence in a peacetime army.


----------



## JorgSlice (25 Nov 2013)

Don't know about anyone else but I don't wear nametape or rank insignia in the field. Not like anyone can see it under my TAC vest anyway.

As subdued nametapes and slip ons are readily available in CF spec from places like CP Gear and the High-Vis ones are being shoved down our throat one can easily differentiate the purpose of them.

High-vis for garrison and subdued for field and ops.


----------



## Old Sweat (25 Nov 2013)

As someone who was serving  as a subaltern in 1964 when the subdued badges of rank were introduced by an army (ours) whose leaders had led in battle, I firmly believe:

a. at the company and platoon level pretty badges of rank are a menace;

b. above that at battalion and brigade, maybe they allow people to be recognized; and

c. above that, who cares? 

 :sarcasm:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Nov 2013)

I worked a couple of time wit the SAS, on the periphery.

I had a task one time that required me to acertain who was in charge in order to figure out how things would be done.

They always stood around, facing outwards, as a group.

When I asked who was in charge, I was politlety told to state my business and it would be taken care of.

When I pressed them, I was told in more vigorous terms that they knew who was in charge and that was all that should matter to me, nor was it my business.

I stated my business and left. The SSM knew the response before I returned.

It would seem, this high vis rank business, is born out of a sense of insecurity and lack of personal self worth.

An officer should be recognised by his bearing and familiarity, not a rank badge.


----------



## Privateer (26 Nov 2013)

And his hair, apparently.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It would seem, this high vis rank business, is born out of a sense of insecurity and lack of personal self worth.
> 
> An officer should be recognised by his bearing and familiarity, not a rank badge.



BINGO, I could not agree more. Same goes for WOs .


----------



## Towards_the_gap (26 Nov 2013)

I always fought back against the 'rank badge on tacvest'. The people who needed to know who I was, knew already, and if they didn't know but needed then I just introduced myself...usually with my first name only.


----------



## McG (26 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It would seem, this high vis rank business, is born out of a sense of insecurity and lack of personal self worth.
> 
> An officer should be recognised by his bearing and familiarity, not a rank badge.


Might want to be carefull with the generalizations.  Most of the few times I have seen hi-vis rank, it has not been an officer wearing it.


----------



## McG (26 Nov 2013)

... and I would not suggest some sense of insecurity in any of those gentlemen.


----------



## George Wallace (26 Nov 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> Might want to be carefull with the generalizations.  Most of the few times I have seen hi-vis rank, it has not been an officer wearing it.



 >

Officer/NCM ratios would back up your claims.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Nov 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> Might want to be carefull with the generalizations.  Most of the few times I have seen hi-vis rank, it has not been an officer wearing it.



Officer\NCM, the rank doesn't matter. What was the catalyst that required a change from something that has been working fine for ages and why the change?

However,  let's not get into another 200 pages ranting about monetary waste.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (26 Nov 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> I always fought back against the 'rank badge on tacvest'. The people who needed to know who I was, knew already, and if they didn't know but needed then I just introduced myself...usually with my first name only.



When I got busted down to Corporal a while back.. we had PT with tacvests.. I hadn't had time to swap off my Sgts and proceeded to complete PT.. until I bumped in the CO running the other way, he backtracked and reminded me I had to change my slipon. I guess that would be one of the only times the rank badge actually mattered?


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Nov 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> When I got busted down to Corporal a while back.. we had PT with tacvests.. I hadn't had time to swap off my Sgts and proceeded to complete PT.. until I bumped in the CO running the other way, he backtracked and reminded me I had to change my slipon. I guess that would be one of the only times the rank badge actually mattered?



Wasn't that when you said "Think you're man enough to cut it off me"? and became Private Bzzliteyr ?


----------



## vonGarvin (26 Nov 2013)

Like it or not, we are in the military, a professional force that is not one of first-name basis, and we have identifiers for various things, rank included.  Whether they are high vis or not is to me immaterial, because if there's a need to subdue that rank, then we will.  As for us, here in Canada, where we now as a habit wear our field uniforms in office and garrison environments, we would have to accept that we wear rank that can be seen.  Yes, we all know our COs, RSMs, etc, but we wear our rank not for those who know us, but those who don't.  And our rank is a visible sign to others that rightly or wrongly is used to allow others to gauge us in terms of authority, competence, etc.
As for an historical example of an army subduing or altering its rank insignia for "practical reasons" (eg: combat), look no further than the Waffen SS.  Here is a chart of their insignia







The insignia in green is what they ended up wearing on their field camouflage uniforms, as can be seen in this war-art:






We talked about field units, in combat, etc.  The Waffen SS was an organisation that was, among many traits, resourceful when it came to surviving, especially on the Eastern Front.  

So, it may be nice and equitable and all to forget that we have ranks, and some may like to go by first names, but as a professional army, we ought not to make it a habit.


:2c:


----------



## SeaKingTacco (26 Nov 2013)

This is, perhaps, the most interesting application of Godwin's Law that I have ever seen.


----------



## vonGarvin (26 Nov 2013)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> This is, perhaps, the most interesting application of Godwin's Law that I have ever seen.


[slight tangent]
Not sure if this counts, because I'm not saying that anyone here as a view that would be held by Hitler, as per _reductio ad Hitlerum_
[/slight tangent]

 ;D


----------



## Lightguns (26 Nov 2013)

Given that this topic was split from Argumentum ad nauseam thread, expected.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Nov 2013)

It's interesting that the US military in WW2 thought it so important to identify leaders that they put a 'leadership stripe' on the backs of helmets for Officers and SNCOs:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-seam-WW2-helmet-with-officers-stripe-and-liner-/251383740476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a87a3783c

I'm not sure if this was just for 'the invasion', where chaos reigns, or standard practise (where chaos rains  ;D).


----------



## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It's interesting that the US military in WW2 thought it so important to identify leaders that they put a 'leadership stripe' on the backs of helmets for Officers and SNCOs:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Front-seam-WW2-helmet-with-officers-stripe-and-liner-/251383740476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a87a3783c
> 
> I'm not sure if this was just for 'the invasion', where chaos reigns, or standard practise (where chaos rains  ;D).



Great plan as long as the leader never turned around to actually talk to his troops.....

Perhaps that explains why so many American leaders were pictured with their helmets tucked safely under their arms  >


----------



## vonGarvin (26 Nov 2013)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Great plan as long as the leader never turned around to actually talk to his troops.....


Sometimes I imagine that was a good thing.  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Nov 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> I always fought back against the 'rank badge on tacvest'. The people who needed to know who I was, knew already, and if they didn't know but needed then I just introduced myself...usually with my first name only.



I've never worn the rank on my tac vest. Ever. 

And I probably won't. I am a corporal that got lucky.


----------



## Furniture (27 Nov 2013)

As an outsider with no vested interest in the discussion I think Technoviking explained the argument for wearing high vis ranks in garrison perfectly. Realistically, will wearing white ranks and nametags really affect cam and concealment while standing in line at the BOR, or Tim's?  Lets face it, most people wearing CADPAT to work every day don't need to be worried about being seen in the field.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (27 Nov 2013)

But the crux of the issue for most of us is:

What is broke that needs fixing? Were people getting injured after walking into a lamp-post because they were too fixated on deciphering whether it was a WO or a MWO that was walking towards them? What problem is this fixing?

It's window dressing for people whose sense of self-worth and pride ONLY comes from how much gold braid they have on their DEU's.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Nov 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> But the crux of the issue for most of us is:
> 
> What problem is this fixing?



'Afghanistan drift', of course   

:sarcasm:


----------



## vonGarvin (27 Nov 2013)

The same can be said about our red and white Canadian flags that we wear in garrison, vis a vis our green (subdued) ones we wear in the field.

Edit to add the following:


----------



## Sadukar09 (27 Nov 2013)

Well, everyone in my unit just got issued high visibility name tags. They seem nicer than the subdued one.


----------



## Journeyman (27 Nov 2013)

Sadukar09 said:
			
		

> They seem nicer than the subdued one.


That tends to be one of the key factors written into military procurement.   :nod:


----------



## vonGarvin (27 Nov 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> That tends to be one of the key factors written into military procurement.   :nod:



Let's not forget the "local industry" effect.


----------



## Sailorwest (27 Nov 2013)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> The same can be said about our red and white Canadian flags that we wear in garrison, vis a vis our green (subdued) ones we wear in the field.
> 
> Edit to add the following:


When do you wear the pink(subdued) one?


----------



## George Wallace (27 Nov 2013)

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> When do you wear the pink(subdued) one?



I think it is time you adjusted the colour on your monitor.    ;D


----------



## cupper (27 Nov 2013)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> As an outsider with no vested interest in the discussion I think Technoviking explained the argument for wearing high vis ranks in garrison perfectly. Realistically, will wearing white ranks and nametags really affect cam and concealment while standing in line at the BOR, or Tim's?  Lets face it, most people wearing CADPAT to work every day don't need to be worried about being seen in the field.



It does make it harder to blend in with the plants and shrubberies though. :camo:


----------



## Sadukar09 (28 Nov 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> That tends to be one of the key factors written into military procurement.   :nod:


*Tends*

 ;D


----------



## Furniture (28 Nov 2013)

cupper said:
			
		

> It does make it harder to blend in with the plants and shrubberies though. :camo:



There is truly nothing worse than standing out when in the corner hiding from the boss because your blue/white rank insignia isn't sufficiently subdued enough to blend in.... I had to write so many extra course reports because of that when I was at the school... >


----------



## McG (30 Nov 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Insignia, e.g. rank insignia, should be subdued (dark/black as opposed to bright colors), ...


Of course, sometimes black is not very subdued.


----------



## Tank Troll (30 Nov 2013)

We are wearing Red and White flags on this tour over in the sandbox ……………… but subdued Rank!!!! ???


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Nov 2013)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> We are wearing Red and White flags on this tour over in the sandbox ……………… but subdued Rank!!!! ???



"A taste for irony has kept more hearts from breaking than a sense of humor, for it takes irony to appreciate the joke which is on oneself."

Jessamyn West 

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/irony.html#TXVGOI5ZZxmQ5BGQ.99


----------



## wannabe SF member (1 Dec 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> Of course, sometimes black is not very subdued.



To be fair, this summer, our Aussie coy commander had black pips on his cmbts and I couldn't see them past 15 meters. The fact that I was usually prone and struggling to not fall asleep might have had something to do with it though.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Dec 2013)

Here are some Parachute Regiment Officer's pips.

Of course, we were always realistic about this whole 'war' thing and more concerned about getting slotted by our own side (mostly Septic Tanks)  than by the real bad guys  ;D


----------



## cupper (2 Dec 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Here are some Parachute Regiment Officer's pips.
> 
> Of course, we were always realistic about this whole 'war' thing and more concerned about getting slotted by our own side (mostly Septic Tanks)  than by the real bad guys  ;D



Can you post a better picture? They don't show up well against the background.  ;D


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (4 Dec 2013)

Inky said:
			
		

> To be fair, this summer, our Aussie coy commander had black pips on his cmbts and I couldn't see them past 15 meters. The fact that I was usually prone and struggling to not fall asleep might have had something to do with it though.



Capt Lebreton?


----------



## wannabe SF member (9 Dec 2013)

Yes...Followed By Capt. Johnson.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (9 Dec 2013)

"2.   Enhanced Visibility Insignia (EVI).
   a.   Slip-Ons (Current CADPAT).  As stocks of the current rank slip-ons (green thread) are depleted, new stock will include EVI threaded versions through stock attrition.
   b.   4’’ x 2” Canadian Flags.  These are the new flags for the ECU shirt.  Flags will only be issued when soldiers receive an ECU shirt. There will be 2 flags per shirt, one on each arm.
   c.   Name Tapes.  A National Standing Offer has been established for EVI name tapes.  As current green thread name tapes are still authorized for use, this distribution plan is not considered high    importance or vital to operations.  Direction has been sent to all Clothing Stores to begin the ordering process in accordance with the following schedule:
      (1)   1 Sep until 31 Oct 13:  1 Cdn Div HQ, CMTC and 3 Cdn Div (COMPLETE);
      (2)   1 Nov 13 until 31 Dec 13:  CADTC (Kingston Units)  and 4 Cdn Div;
      (3)   1 Jan 14 until 28 Feb 14:  2 Cdn Div; and
      (4)   1 Mar 14 until 30 Apr 14:  CTC and 5 Cdn Div.
   d.   Rank Patches for ECU.  This new patch will be stocked in EVI thread only and issued when soldiers receive ECU shirts.  No issue of this patch is expected before Jan 14 when ECU shirts begin to    be issued through attrition.
   e.   New Rank Patches and Insignia (as part of Army transformation and transformation to the Divisional structure)."

What I am reading from this is that the Enhanced visibility tapes will become "the norm".  There won't be a field vs garrison tape.  It'll be Hi-Vis or no vis.


----------



## Lightguns (9 Dec 2013)

"e.   New Rank Patches and Insignia (as part of Army transformation and transformation to the Divisional structure)."

I smell Div, Bde, and, possibly even, unit Cadpat badges acomin'


----------



## MikeL (9 Dec 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> b.   4’’ x 2” Canadian Flags.  These are the new flags for the ECU shirt.  Flags will only be issued when soldiers receive an ECU shirt. There will be 2 flags per shirt, one on each arm.



Now that the flag is larger, why must we go from wearing 1 to 2*?  I'm pretty sure we'd be recognizable as Canadian if we continue to stick with wearing a flag on 1 arm.


*Referring to garrison wear,  not including the 1 small and 1 large IR flags we wore in Afganistan.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (12 Dec 2013)

We are moving to the red/white Canadian flag on flying suits/jackets now too.  Going to be some busy tailors on the Wings.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Dec 2013)

I hope the new Canadian flags for our new shirts are the same shiny white colour as our rank and name tags. Red isn't visible enough.


----------



## dimsum (12 Dec 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> We are moving to the red/white Canadian flag on flying suits/jackets now too.  Going to be some busy tailors on the Wings.



Honest question:  Velcro-backed or sewn onto the suits?  

I'm surprised (well, not really) that there aren't unit patches on CADPAT, similar to the arm pocket patches on the Arid pattern in Afghanistan.  

Side-track (also an honest question):  Are we allowed to wear unit ball caps everywhere with CADPAT/flying clothing now?


----------



## a_majoor (12 Dec 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> "e.   New Rank Patches and Insignia (as part of Army transformation and transformation to the Divisional structure)."
> 
> I smell Div, Bde, and, possibly even, unit Cadpat badges acomin'



Like this?

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/insignia/formations/cefform.htm

Of course we will also need subdued IR Divisional and formation patches as well for deployments


----------



## MAJONES (12 Dec 2013)

.....great.......now all the big brains need to do is find us some flying suits on which to put said flags...... 



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> We are moving to the red/white Canadian flag on flying suits/jackets now too.  Going to be some busy tailors on the Wings.


----------



## dimsum (13 Dec 2013)

MAJONES said:
			
		

> .....great.......now all the big brains need to do is find us some flying suits on which to put said flags......



If we were to ask down south, we could probably get all we need from their spare inventory stocks.....but of *course* we'll need a Canadian-specific solution for jobs' sake.   

The USAF 2-piece ones (where the shirt isn't tucked into the pants) are pretty comfy  :nod:


----------



## ArmyRick (13 Dec 2013)

Glad to see we have our priorities straight. Some many far more important things then this nonsense.


----------



## Loachman (13 Dec 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Of course we will also need subdued IR Divisional ... patches as well for deployments



All in subtly different shades of olive green?

And senior officers everywhere will become most indignant when somebody guesses the wrong division...


----------



## dimsum (13 Dec 2013)

Loachman said:
			
		

> And senior officers everywhere will become most indignant when somebody guesses the wrong division...



When the RAAF decided to reorganize the Airfield Defence Guards, MPs, etc. into Security Forces Squadrons, apparently they had a bit of an argument as to what the patches would look like.  

The result?  "1 SECFOR" in one colour (blue or red, can't remember) and "2 SECFOR" in the other colour.  Seemed like a bit of a joke at the time but now it seems to make sense


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Dec 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Honest question:  Velcro-backed or sewn onto the suits?



Velcro.  The new(r) ACE jackets are Velcro flag as well. 



> I'm surprised (well, not really) that there aren't unit patches on CADPAT, similar to the arm pocket patches on the Arid pattern in Afghanistan.



They're coming as well; Sqn patches for CADPAT.  I haven't seen any yet but they are supposedly on the way.  



> Side-track (also an honest question):  Are we allowed to wear unit ball caps everywhere with CADPAT/flying clothing now?



Depending on who you ask I guess and what Wing you're on.     We can wear them in Sqn lines/flight line no questions, there are varying thoughts on if we can wear them between say, Hornell and 11 Hgr, but definitely not to be seen once you leave the GRA.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Dec 2013)

MAJONES said:
			
		

> .....great.......now all the big brains need to do is find us some flying suits on which to put said flags......



One of the guys has the new ACE type one, so the new stuff must be starting to trickle in.  They have the same black zipper pulls as the ACE jacket, the Velcro goes back -> front and the back is the same style as the jacket as well.


----------



## LMT189 (16 Dec 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> They're coming as well; Sqn patches for CADPAT.  I haven't seen any yet but they are supposedly on the way.



BGen Loos wore them on Op Nanook '13:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=503705263039373&set=pb.222493134493922.-2207520000.1387247501.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-prn1%2F1148824_503705263039373_698662569_n.jpg&size=960%2C601


----------

