# Shaving while off duty



## jaysfan17 (16 Jan 2019)

Based on the title of the post this will be a shaving question. Specifically geared towards those who cannot grow a proper beard in accordance to the standards of the new beard policy.

What I’ve noticed at my reserve unit (specifically the clerks) is if you’re off duty or on leave and need to go to the orderly room to do some admin they want you to be clean shaven and properly dressed. I understand them not wanting any innappropiate clothing, but why does it matter if someone is clean shaven. They’re not in uniform hence off duty. Is there a rule I’m missing?


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## coyote489 (16 Jan 2019)

I know it won’t answer your question necessarily but I’ve been turned around at the door of the OR for having a leave beard. Don’t make no sense to me really. But now with the new policy I can’t see them being allowed to do that. I could be wrong but that would not make sense at all if the new policy allows beards. But then again this is the military we’re talking about....


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## BDTyre (16 Jan 2019)

I'm not aware of any policy. I've shown up at the BOR more than once unshaven and in jeans and a t-shirt...I've never been turned away.


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## jaysfan17 (16 Jan 2019)

It’s weird. One of my friends was turned away by the OR a couple months ago for having a beard. Just yesterday I was given a talking too about my beard when I went in to do some admin.

 Last summer I was in the OR and got caught in the middle of someone getting jacked up and strolled in with flip flops and a beard and the angry Sgt didn’t say anything to me in regards to my appearance. I guess things are changing now.


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## Sub_Guy (16 Jan 2019)

Are they calling you in to do admin while you are on leave?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (16 Jan 2019)

We are dealing with a reservist, so unless he/she is on a class B or C contract, you can't really talk in terms of duty/leave or on duty/off duty dichotomies.

When on DND property the person is definitely subject to the Code of service discipline, but can only be said to be on duty if coming in to train or work and signs a pay sheet for it. At other time, the member is neither off duty nor on leave, but merely a civilian, so to speak.

Reserve units (particularly OR) have a bad habit of asking members to drop by - unpaid - either during the day or on the "admin" night to complete various forms, etc.

Since the person is not on duty at such time, it's pretty bad form in my mind to require the member to be clean and shaven. At that time, the member is taking his/her own personal time for the convenience of the people in the OR (though, also for the member's own benefit - no doubt) and they should be happy the member is making the time for such.


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## daftandbarmy (16 Jan 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> We are dealing with a reservist, so unless he/she is on a class B or C contract, you can't really talk in terms of duty/leave or on duty/off duty dichotomies.
> 
> When on DND property the person is definitely subject to the Code of service discipline, but can only be said to be on duty if coming in to train or work and signs a pay sheet for it. At other time, the member is neither off duty nor on leave, but merely a civilian, so to speak.
> 
> ...



I always reminded my troops to sign a paysheet every time they were called in to do some administrivia, no matter how long (or short) a time it took.

The spurious calls by the BOR soon dried up.


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## SupersonicMax (17 Jan 2019)

Even for Reg Force folks.  What difference does it make if a person is shaven or not on his time off?  I sure as hell don't make an extra effort to shave or dress any more nicely than I would otherwise if I have to go to work on my time off.


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## 211RadOp (17 Jan 2019)

From Sect 2 of the Dress Instructions:

Para 1 "...Pursuant to QR&O 17.02, the deportment and appearance of all ranks, in uniform or when wearing civilian attire, shall on all occasions reflect credit on the CAF and the individual."
Para 3 "...CAF personnel wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in military groups or settings shall dress and comport themselves at all times as befits members of a disciplined, cohesive force."

I do know in some units it is in Standing Orders that if you are coming in, even in civilians, you must be clean shaven unless you are authorized to grow a beard.


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## Nfld Sapper (17 Jan 2019)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> From Sect 2 of the Dress Instructions:
> 
> Para 1 "...Pursuant to QR&O 17.02, the deportment and appearance of all ranks, in uniform or when wearing civilian attire, shall on all occasions reflect credit on the CAF and the individual."
> Para 3 "...CAF personnel wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in military groups or settings shall dress and comport themselves at all times as befits members of a disciplined, cohesive force."
> ...



Which should be null and void now with the canforgen on beards...


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## daftandbarmy (17 Jan 2019)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Which should be null and void now with the canforgen on beards...



It's a culture thing:

'Culture eats strategy for breakfast.' - Peter Drucker


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## BDTyre (17 Jan 2019)

I work with my unit's RQ and at least once a month I am in on a Friday night and Sunday afternoon to issue/return weapons. Never once I have I been in uniform. In fact my state of dress varied greatly from pressed trousers and a nice sweater to old, worn shorts and a humorous t-shirt. Not once was I told this is unacceptable. Prior to BEARDFORGEN, I almost never would be clean shaven - again, this never seemed to be a problem.

So in the reserves...your mileage may vary.


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## SupersonicMax (17 Jan 2019)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> From Sect 2 of the Dress Instructions:
> 
> Para 1 "...Pursuant to QR&O 17.02, the deportment and appearance of all ranks, in uniform or when wearing civilian attire, shall on all occasions reflect credit on the CAF and the individual."
> Para 3 "...CAF personnel wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in military groups or settings shall dress and comport themselves at all times as befits members of a disciplined, cohesive force."



Well, this applies everywhere.  Does that mean I had to shave every day on leave before the CANFORGEN?  Were the same people jacking up people showing up to the OR unshaven jack people up in town for the same reason?  

There is absolutely not practial reason to ask people to behave differently on leave when they have to show up to work and otherwise.  In fact, it may turn people off the organization.


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## BeyondTheNow (17 Jan 2019)

The strictness of how each OR/BOR enforces deportment varies, both in PRes and RegF world...unfortunately. It also varies between every CoC. Would it be easier if everyone had the same standards across the board and adhered to policy to the T—inclusive of new beard policies? Absolutely. But many are sticklers for certain things, others not so much.

For example, CClk had me speak to a mbr about her hair--he wasn't satisfied with its appearance. (Nor was I for that matter.) But her direct CoC didn't think it was a big deal. Certain aspects of civvie dress are acceptable in the OR where I'm currently posted, but would've been turned away in a heartbeat where I was posted prior, on leave or not. It's one of those just-go-with-the-flow things in some instances--as confusing as it can be.


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## Rifleman62 (17 Jan 2019)

All this is about facial hair I presume.


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## jaysfan17 (18 Jan 2019)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Are they calling you in to do admin while you are on leave?



Yeah


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## brihard (18 Jan 2019)

luttrellfan said:
			
		

> Yeah



Fair enough. Show up with decent clothes, a copy of BEARDFORGEN, the email asking you to come in, and a pay sheet. If the army wants to pay you sixty bucks for a few minutes of admin, that’s worth putting pants on for. Just don’t do it for free.


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## jaysfan17 (18 Jan 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Fair enough. Show up with decent clothes, a copy of BEARDFORGEN, the email asking you to come in, and a pay sheet. If the army wants to pay you sixty bucks for a few minutes of admin, that’s worth putting pants on for. Just don’t do it for free.



So basically if they expect me to shave then I should be asking for a pay sheet?


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## brihard (18 Jan 2019)

luttrellfan said:
			
		

> So basically if they expect me to shave then I should be asking for a pay sheet?



No. If they expect you to show up and work, which includes admin, you should be asking for a pay sheet. If you’re showing up to work you’re expected to meet standards of dress and deportment. That no longer means needing to shave as long as your beard is within what the CANFORGEN specifies.


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Jan 2019)

luttrellfan said:
			
		

> . . . They’re not in uniform hence off duty. Is there a rule I’m missing?



Though this topic has already been beaten to death, I came across this from the dress instructions while looking for something else.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/military-history/history-heritage/dress-manual/chapter-1.html#para-20


> WORDS AND PHRASES – HOW CONSTRUED
> 
> 20.  “On duty”.  As a general rule, *for purposes of dress and appearance, a member is considered to be on duty*:
> a.  when actively engaged in operations, training or administrative duties, either in accordance with specific orders or in accordance with established military routine or practice;
> ...



So yes, even when on leave or not otherwise being paid for military duty, if you show up at your unit to do some admin because it is the common and established practice to do it that way, then you are "on-duty" for purposes of dress and appearance and should be abiding by said regulations regarding appearance.


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## dapaterson (23 Jan 2019)

If on duty, subject to CSD.  If subject to CSD, entitled to pay.

Th CAF ignores this often...


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## CountDC (23 Jan 2019)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Which should be null and void now with the canforgen on beards...



Why?  It is still valid with or without canforgen.  Just because the army finally gave up and decided to join the navy in allowing beards doesn't mean everything gets thrown out.  The dress manual still exists, the only change is that it is not just navy that can grow one.

Oh, forgot.  Where in the dress manual does it say only applicable while on duty?  Doesn't so yes prior to the canforgen while you were on leave you were supposed to still shave.  Yes I know almost all of us didn't.  My latest beard came when I was on leave, it grew and I decided to keep it.  

As for dress - many units and bases have a dress policy for conducting business published in RO's and Standing Orders.  Yeah those docs that everyone is supposed to read but few do.  Read them and then you know what to expect when you go in.

OR staff can not order you in but can certainly ask you to come in on your own time so they can take care of you.  Generally if they are asking you to it would be to your benefit (pay, claims, TD package, etc).  I can't think of any reason to ask someone in that would be for the benefit of the OR.  

Personally I love when a Class A reservist shows up to conduct business such as checking on their pay or submitting claims during the week rather than the designated work night and then asks to submit a pay sheet.  Of course they tend not to like my answer.


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## Lumber (24 Jan 2019)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Personally I love when a Class A reservist shows up to conduct business such as checking on their pay or submitting claims during the week rather than the designated work night and then asks to submit a pay sheet.  Of course they tend not to like my answer.



Perhaps you are just looking at a very specific case, which is where a class A was too lazy to do this admin during the trg or admin nights, and in those cases, and those cases alone, I am in agreement. However, I offer you the following circumstances where it would be entirely appropriate for the member to come in during the day to complete admin with the orderly room AND get paid for it:

1. member is working nights for the next month and can't attend any regularly scheduled parade nights;
2. member was not provided sufficient time during the regularly scheduled parade night for whatever reason;
3. the OR just completed the paperwork/travel package, and the member is flying out before the regularly scheduled parade night;
4. member was ordered to go in and complete the paperwork ASAP by their CoC;.
5. etc...


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## Lumber (24 Jan 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If on duty, subject to CSD.  If subject to CSD, entitled to pay.
> 
> Th CAF ignores this often...



Disagree with that last bit.

If you are a class-A reservist and are on DND property, your are subject to the CSD, but there are several circumstances I can think of where you would not be (and should not be) entitled to pay. For exampel:

1. your brought your family to attend waterfront event, and the unit (being on the waterfront) is hosting a few exhibits, and even has a food truck on their DND parking lot. You are on DND property, and therefore subject to the CSD, but I would fight tooth and nail to say you do not deserve to be paid for bringin your family to a city run event that happens to have your base open to the public;
2. Your unit has a military museum. You bring  your dad to show him the museum. You are literally inside the unit on DND property. Sorry, no pay;
3. You forgot your wallet in your locker at the unit. You go back to the unit to pick it yo. On DND propert = subject to CSD, but: NO PAY.


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## MARS (24 Jan 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> 1. member is working nights for the next month and can't attend any regularly scheduled parade nights;
> 2. member was not provided sufficient time during the regularly scheduled parade night for whatever reason;
> 3. the OR just completed the paperwork/travel package, and the member is flying out before the regularly scheduled parade night;
> 4. member was ordered to go in and complete the paperwork ASAP by their CoC;.



Every one of those reasons is valid, but still requires someone in the CoC to approve the signing of a pay sheet outside the authorized Admin/Trg nights.  I authorized everyone of those situations at various points in my tenure as a member of the Cmd Team, and also made sure the Day Staff was aware this was approved...but if LS Bloggins simply showed up on her own accord to do any of these things without getting pay pre-approved...and then 'asked' to submit a pay sheet...well, that's what CountDC's example sounded like to me.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> The strictness of how each OR/BOR enforces deportment varies, both in PRes and RegF world...unfortunately. It also varies between every CoC. Would it be easier if everyone had the same standards across the board and adhered to policy to the T—inclusive of new beard policies? Absolutely. But many are sticklers for certain things, others not so much.



Very good points and accurate in my experience with the PRes and Reg force and across the Navy, Army and Air Force.  

Additionally, Orderly Rooms etc don't establish their "own" reg for things like dress;  they're more than likely pulling them from the Base/Wing/Unit dress instructions that have been signed off by the appropriate level of command.

WRT to the original question by the OP, "_are their any rules_...", this might be relevant as well as some of the other good posts here:

QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 19 Conduct And Discipline

Section 1 - Personal Conduct

19.01 - OBSERVANCE AND ENFORCEMENT OF REGULATIONS, ORDERS AND INSTRUCTIONS

Every officer and non-commissioned member shall become acquainted with, obey and enforce:
a.  the National Defence Act;
b.  the the Security of Information Act;
c.  QR&O; and
d.  all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions necessary for the performance of the member's duties.

(M) [5 June 2008 – (b)]

And from CFP 265 CAF Dress Instructions, in addition to BlackAdder1916s posts earlier, from Chap 1:

2.  This publication, issued under CDS authority, details CAF dress and personal appearance policy, authorized dress items and the method of wearing all uniforms and accoutrements.

8.  Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction.

10.Officers cannot delegate their leadership responsibilities. They are assisted by warrant and non- commissioned officers, who control standards and compliance by all of their subordinates.

* NCO includes Cpl/LS ranks.

For the OP, your question was specifically about a member who isn't able to grow a beard and has been directed to shave IAW the BEARDFORGEN direction.  You can see the regs are laid out fairly well in black and white, and I think BTN hit the nail on the head above;  some units will enforce 'the regs' more stringently than others.  

At my Sqn, sandals aren't authorized while in civilian attire during duty hours (we can wear civies on Friday for $2 towards charity).  If I drop by the hanger when I am on a NWD or on leave, I don't wear sandals even though I am 'not on duty'.  Pick your battles?


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## Blackadder1916 (24 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> At my Sqn, sandals aren't authorized while in civilian attire during duty hours (we can wear civies on Friday for $2 towards charity).  If I drop by the hanger when I am on a NWD or on leave, I don't wear sandals even though I am 'not on duty'.  Pick your battles?



Not even if you wear socks with your sandals?


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jan 2019)

I think the requirement is knee-high black socks, but only if wearing cargo shorts.


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## dapaterson (24 Jan 2019)

It's fun to see people in civilian clothes wearing issued oxfords and belt.


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## JesseWZ (24 Jan 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's fun to see people in civilian clothes wearing issued oxfords and belt.



Your definition of fun and mine differ significantly. I'll add that the issued belt is typically somewhere just below the nipple line on most specimens I've witnessed. 

As an aside:

How to dress yourself...


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## dapaterson (24 Jan 2019)

Fun as in amusing and entertaining. 

Stifled guffaws type fun.


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## Blackadder1916 (24 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think the requirement is knee-high black socks, but only if wearing cargo shorts.



Black knee-high socks with shorts should definitely be acceptable, especially since they were once uniform issue.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jan 2019)

If my "photoshop" skills were decent, I'd put a pair of Crocs on the first picture and show it to the SCWO to see what he thinks.   8)


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## dimsum (25 Jan 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Black knee-high socks with shorts should definitely be acceptable, especially since they were once uniform issue.



I'm sorry, there is no way I'd take someone seriously who was wearing that.


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## IceBlue (25 Jan 2019)

If you look at the kids in that first picture, they look like they are trying to cover their eyes to avoid the sight of the abomination of that uniform.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Jan 2019)

I've been given the "you have to be shaved even if you're on leave" while showing up at my unit on leave to do a favor for them.

Easy fix. I don't come in off leave anymore and not too big on the favors anymore either. Reap what you sow I guess.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jan 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Black knee-high socks with shorts should definitely be acceptable, especially since they were once uniform issue.



Those are awesome reminders of how awful we can be at times in some ways. Looks like the lineup for every early bird special in Victoria


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## Pusser (25 Jan 2019)

We used to wear shorts at sea all the time, although generally without the socks - just sandals.  Navy-issued sandals, comfortable (really) and oh, so stylish...


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## IceBlue (25 Jan 2019)

Pusser said:
			
		

> We used to wear shorts at sea all the time, although generally without the socks - just sandals.  Navy-issued sandals, comfortable (really) and oh, so stylish...



Last time i wore shorts at sea was 2012, and with sea boots not sandals. It looked amazing.


**** Edit was due to me getting old and not remembering the right year ****


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## FSTO (25 Jan 2019)

Pusser said:
			
		

> We used to wear shorts at sea all the time, although generally without the socks - just sandals.  Navy-issued sandals, comfortable (really) and oh, so stylish...



All the rage until the mafia from HMCS GALIANO became zealots to the two layer church!


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