# Hazing thrives in organizations obsessed with conformity... - CBC Opinion



## dimsum (3 Jan 2019)

> Call it hazing. Call it initiation ritual. Call it tradition.
> 
> It could be a private school, or a sports team, or a military unit. St. Michael's College School. Upper Canada College. The Ontario Hockey League. The Royal Winnipeg Rifles or the Canadian Airborne Regiment.
> 
> ...



https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/hazing-military-1.4962270


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jan 2019)

Some good points in that article and some not so good ones. Very much agree with his views on conformity. Gender equality such as mixed gender hockey teams or perhaps boxing? That'll work.

I wonder why Mr Keene is wearing arid cadpat in the article picture, he doesn't appear to have deployed to the middle east.


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## Halifax Tar (3 Jan 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Some good points in that article and some not so good ones. Very much agree with his views on conformity. Gender equality such as mixed gender hockey teams or perhaps boxing? That'll work.
> 
> I wonder why Mr Keene is wearing arid cadpat in the article picture, he doesn't appear to have deployed to the middle east.



I noticed that as well when I dug into his background.


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## Monsoon (3 Jan 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I noticed that as well when I dug into his background.


Don't know the guy or what you're seeing, but the bio on this CBC article - https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/universality-of-service-1.4363985 - says, "Tony Keene was a reservist in the Canadian Armed Forces for 40 years and completed multiple overseas tours of duty." Perhaps he served as an UNMO in Sudan, if you're certain he's never been to the ME.


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## Remius (3 Jan 2019)

I certainly don’t agree with the statement that hazing “thrives”.  Does it exist? Yes.  If left unchecked it could thrive.  But I don’t agree that it thrives in the CAF.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Jan 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I certainly don’t agree with the statement that hazing “thrives”.  Does it exist? Yes.  If left unchecked it could thrive.  But I don’t agree that it thrives in the CAF.



If it does, there is more willingness, and far more avenues, for getting it sorted out than there were 20 years ago, IMHO.


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## PuckChaser (3 Jan 2019)

The guy was a PAFFO after a brief stint as a Inf Pl Comd, career reservist. His bio never indicates any Middle East deployment, but as a PAFFO he went to Haiti and Rwanda, likely on TAVs.

Full bio (news article format) here: https://militarybruce.com/journalist-soldier-comes-full-circle-2/


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## AbdullahD (3 Jan 2019)

I could be very biased here but this article seems extremely biased in my books. Mainly the points of it thriving and always involving men, secondary points of it being brutal and sadistic as well.

Some instances of female hazing, showing it is not just males
https://www.therichest.com/rich-list/most-shocking/10-of-the-most-insane-sorority-hazing-stories/

Interesting read that hazing and the culture of hazing could be linked to the down fall of certain fraternities that practice it and leading to the reduction of hazing itself (my conclusion)
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.psiu.org/resource/resmgr/Docs/Fraternities_in_Decline.pdf

Now the instance with the major he cites seems far more like bullying then hazing, but still does not make it right regardless.
https://canada.humankinetics.com/blogs/excerpt/the-differences-between-bullying-and-hazing-and-how-you-can-prevent-it

Bullying statistics 
http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-statistics.html

Rand paper on US military hazing
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR900/RR941/RAND_RR941.pdf

All in all, the article has great points destructive hazing, bullying etc needs to be stopped. But I feel that hazing is on the decline due to the decrease of fraternities and sororities that practice it, that the claiming that the military is the Acme of hazing is completely off based and that fraternities are far better suited to that title and lastly the author may have gotten bullying and hazing confused.

Unless of course he is claiming BMQ is hazing.. in that case he is off based too I would guess because the reasons for discipline, toughness etc in bmq differs greatly then in hazing.

Also I suspect he lurks this site and I would love to hear a better explanation of what he was thinking when he wrote this piece.. right now it just feels like a quick paycheque to me nothing substantial at all.

Abdullah


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Jan 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I could be very biased here but this article seems extremely biased in my books. . . .



The topic title says it all . . . CBC Opinion . . . , though to clarify it is not an opinion from the CBC, but an opinion piece written by someone not employed (or paid) by the CBC but simply provided a venue where a range of opinions can be presented.  You know, like back in the old days of good journalism when you could turn the actual paper pages of the most trusted sources of media and find things like letters to the editors and op-eds on the page opposite the editorial.

In the grand scheme of things, this is a nothing piece.  Opinion only, it is not a research report nor is his opinion supported by any sort of data which could have been easily referenced.  In other words, the writer said what he "believed" not what he knew to be fact.  It would be entirely appropriate to surmise that the CBC editors may have been biased in accepting this opinion piece for publication because they may have been impressed by the CV of the author, but to suggest that the CBC is presenting this as a story would be off.

This, however, would be an ideal opportunity for an individual who wishes to refute the premise put forth by Mr. Keene to submit his/her own opinion piece to the CBC and to properly support such a rebuttal with proper research.  I, however, won't be doing that since (as I previously wrote) this is a nothing piece and I have better things to do with my time.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-faq-1.3834532


> Why is CBC News doing opinion?
> 
> Opinion isn't new to the CBC - we've offered it in different forms on radio and television for decades. Already, many of our regional websites run opinion pieces written by members of our audience.  This new section is intended to bring those voices together in one place, and to help develop and showcase a wide-range of commentary from across the country in one place. Our goal is to give the audience access to competing ideas which will complement our news coverage and provide additional insight.
> 
> ...


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## AbdullahD (3 Jan 2019)

Yeah opinion pieces are the bane of society sometimes. 

To be honest, I lack the time to see if my points stand up to scrutiny on this subject so publicly refuting I will not do.

Abdullah


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## Retired AF Guy (3 Jan 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The guy was a PAFFO after a brief stint as a Inf Pl Comd, career reservist. His bio never indicates any Middle East deployment, but as a PAFFO he went to Haiti and Rwanda, likely on TAVs.
> 
> Full bio (news article format) here: https://militarybruce.com/journalist-soldier-comes-full-circle-2/


 According to the link you provided he also did four tours in the Balkns as a PAFFO.


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## PuckChaser (3 Jan 2019)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> According to the link you provided he also did four tours in the Balkns as a PAFFO.



Yeah didn't want to summarize his whole life, just wanted to address the CADPAT(AR) issue.


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## garb811 (3 Jan 2019)

> To this day I vividly recall being pushed back against the mess bar by a choleric major who jabbed his finger into my chest and bellowed: "If you want to be an officer in this regiment you'd damn well better learn to drink like one!" I was rescued by the steward, a war veteran named Corky Ayers, who refused to pour a drink for me and told the major so. I endured many such incidents.



Considering he joined in 1964, (55 years ago) which given the context is likely around when this incident occurred, yet the average reader will presume it is a recent event, it might have been germane to the say when this actually happened; but that would diminish the impact of the event to his thesis.


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## dimsum (3 Jan 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Considering he joined in 1964, (55 years ago) which given the context is likely around when this incident occurred, yet the average reader will presume it is a recent event, it might have been germane to the say when this actually happened; but that would diminish the impact of the event to his thesis.



I read the mandatory religious services part as a bit of a timestamp.


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## PuckChaser (3 Jan 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Considering he joined in 1964, (55 years ago) which given the context is likely around when this incident occurred, yet the average reader will presume it is a recent event, it might have been germane to the say when this actually happened; but that would diminish the impact of the event to his thesis.



It obviously wasn't a bad enough event, he's still a member of the mess at the unit in question. Unless I'm victim shaming by pointing that out...


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## Infanteer (3 Jan 2019)

I resent that microaggression.


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## Journeyman (3 Jan 2019)

Having crossed paths with the author when (for my sins), I was posted to a Reserve unit in Toronto, this article fits the 'self-aggrandizing' and 'underwhelming' *personal perception* acquired then  (he _may_  have been awesome; I just didn't see it).  I'm guessing that maybe he couldn't get in with the QOR, so that he could have gotten "an embroidered badge" of his own.   :boring:


And yes, I agree with folks who have highlighted the dated nature, and bullying/hazing, shortcomings of the narrative.


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## BeyondTheNow (3 Jan 2019)

I’m kind of a bit taken aback by some of the posts in this thread. It sounds as though just because one didn’t experience it personally or hear about it, it must not be happening. 

Let me tell you a story from CFLRS that happened within the last 5yrs. I won’t narrow down the date any further. I’ve been starting and stopping this post repeatedly since reading some of the responses. There’s absolutely no logical way that I’m the only one who’s come across scenarios such as the one I’m about to share, or other instances of disgusting behaviour. 

There was a male on my pl who was the stereotypical nerd or geek one might envision. We’ll call him “Stan.” Stan was tall, lanky—skin and bone, bad acne, glasses, kept to himself—he was a computer junkie. ‘Very smart and kind when someone took the time to interact with him though. He had zero PO failures—he kept up with everyone and pulled his weight as expected. He wasn’t a TC by any means, but he could be depended upon. 

One evening after we’d been dismissed for the day, closer to lights out, a couple of guys came running to the girls area of the floor. We were in green sector, 7th floor. We were still on Indoc. (The males & females were divided by a white shower curtain suspended from a removable shower rod. The guys were yelling...panicked. Our first reaction was to tell them off because they were in our area and a few of us were in various stages of undress. This wasn’t allowed and if duty staff caught you while doing their rounds there’d usually be annoyingly inconvenient consequences for the pl and/or persons.) Anyway, once we realized something wasn’t right, we heard the details. A bunch of guys had teamed up on Stan, held him down and drew swasticas on his face in marker. They had been physically aggressive towards him also, all in the name of “fun”, on more than one occasion. By all accounts he had done nothing to anyone on the pl. We were even told he actually WAS Jewish, but the aggressors didn’t know that at the time. I can’t confirm that fact though. Apparently the guys were laughing hysterically while they did it—they thought it was just hilarious. We were shocked. Myself and another older female on the pl talked about reporting it to staff asap, but were told it already had been. I never followed up, I don’t know if anyone else did. And I regret it. This is not a joke. This is an event that actually took place. I spoke to Stan the next day just to say hello. Remnants of faint marker were still on his face. I never heard of any repercussions. There was another individual on the pl who had a similar MO and he and Stan were friends. He didn’t get picked on quite as much though. I don’t know if Stan is still serving. 

This was, by far, not the only incident that crossed a line I either witnessed and/or knew about. 

The op ed may have been his personal thoughts and perspectives. And maybe events are out of date. And maybe things aren’t as bad as they once were. But to deny that there’s still a problem, either during BMQ or after training altogether, is sticking one’s head in the sand.


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## Infanteer (3 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I’m kind of a bit taken aback by some of the posts in this thread. It sounds as though just because one didn’t experience it personally or hear about it, it must not be happening.



I don't think that is what is happening.  I think folks are taking umbrage with the opinion piece stating that these kinds of behaviors thrive in the military, based on a single anecdote.  You also provide a single anecdote of something that occurred at a basic training institution.  How about in the battalions and regiments, the ships, and the squadrons?  Is hazing thriving, or are we allowing conjecture to form the narrative?  

Personally, I've seen nothing to indicate that its a rampant problem that is out of control or "thriving."  I've seen/heard of isolated incidents, but the ghost of the Airborne Regiment still lingers in most corners of the Army, at least.  What's more important than it occurring (because young "A-type" personalities are always going to pull stunts like this) is what is done by the chain of command upon finding out?  What leadership does when they do see it happen should give us an idea of whether it thrives or not.  The incident in Winnipeg is an example - the chain of command is engaged and is cleaning house to address the problem they've identified.


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## Journeyman (3 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Let me tell you a story...


And, in this instance, I would call this bullying, not hazing in the sense of some dumbass initiation ritual.  The people conducting it weren't 'senior' members initiating someone into the unit; they were merely stupid fellow recruits. 

Neither practice is acceptable, and I certainly don't believe that hazing is "thriving" in today's CAF.


Edit: Infanteer clearly types faster, and argues more coherently, than I do.


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## Infanteer (3 Jan 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> And, in this instance, I would call this bullying, not hazing in the sense of some dumbass initiation ritual.  The people conducting it weren't 'senior' members initiating someone into the unit; they were merely stupid fellow recruits.
> 
> Neither practice is acceptable, and I certainly don't believe that hazing is "thriving" in today's CAF.



Good point on bullying vice hazing.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I’m kind of a bit taken aback by some of the posts in this thread. It sounds as though just because one didn’t experience it personally or hear about it, it must not be happening.
> 
> Let me tell you a story from CFLRS that happened within the last 5yrs. I won’t narrow down the date any further. I’ve been starting and stopping this post repeatedly since reading some of the responses. There’s absolutely no logical way that I’m the only one who’s come across scenarios such as the one I’m about to share, or other instances of disgusting behaviour.
> 
> ...



Speaking as a former Instructor at CFLRS (I've been gone from CFLRS for over a decade), I'd like to make a point;  IF you're told "Don't worry it has been taken care of", or words to that effect, I suggest you do follow up.  If there was no 'words' from the Platoon Staff, including the Platoon Officer, to the entire course if/when something like this has been reported, that is usually a decent indicator the staff do not know about it.  If people are not being 'interviewed/questioned' by staff, that could also be an indicator that staff do not know.  If an incident is alleged to have happened, usually actions will be taken (informally and/or formally) to determine what happened, who was involved, is administrative and/or disciplinary warranted, should a UDI be ordered/MPs contacted, etc.  If you're not sure if it was reported and you feel it is something that should be, ask to talk to your staff, NCOs, Officer, someone.

We will continue to have this crap in the CAF as long as it exists in Canadian society, where we recruit from.  Personally, I've not seen or heard of anything like this in many years.

It is unfortunate the Duty NCO didn't go thru your Sector while this was happening, BTN.

I wonder, back in my day, if a bunch of guys ganged up on a weaker kid, they'd usually be the ones that were told to back off or they'd suffer some actual consequences.  I've seen more than one kid when I was back in Elementary or Junior High get a shitkicking for picking on someone weaker than them.  Bullies, some of them at least, learned lessons the hard way back then.  Nowadays, it's about 'using your words' and softer approaches.  

I wonder if that bites us in the ass as a society now...


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## BeyondTheNow (3 Jan 2019)

I certainly can’t speak first-hand to what’s going on in Battalion, various Infantry Regiments, etc.—It wasn’t my intent to insinuate that. 

The points I zeroed in on from posts are the ones intimating that nothing nefarious is taking place, either ritual, bullying, or otherwise, at the recruit and/or training level and beyond. 

According to info available to the public, CoC in Winnipeg is taking action now, but only after things came to light and (some) events are now common knowledge. I’m not trying to say there’s similar problems plaguing CAF, but I think it’s fair to assume, to a certain degree at least, that other inappropriate activities are still taking place under the radar, hopefully very minimally.


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## garb811 (3 Jan 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> And, in this instance, I would call this bullying, not hazing in the sense of some dumbass initiation ritual.
> ...


Actually we need to call it what it really is, Assault.


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## Humphrey Bogart (3 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I certainly can’t speak first-hand to what’s going on in Battalion, various Infantry Regiments, etc.—It wasn’t my intent to insinuate that.
> 
> The points I zeroed in on from posts are the ones intimating that nothing nefarious is taking place, either ritual, bullying, or otherwise, at the recruit and/or training level and beyond.
> 
> According to info available to the public, CoC in Winnipeg is taking action now, but only after things came to light and (some) events are now common knowledge. I’m not trying to say there’s similar problems plaguing CAF, but I think it’s fair to assume, to a certain degree at least, that other inappropriate activities are still taking place under the radar, hopefully very minimally.



There will always be inappropriate activities that take place in any environment.  Why?  Because some people are mean, terrible, nefarious, psychotic, etc.

You are trying to change human nature which is impossible btw.  The CAF goes to great lengths to prevent these sorts of incidents but we aren't miracle workers and we aren't going to catch them all.

You could take CFLRS out of your story and change it to XXX University, School, Workplace, etc and you would find the same thing.


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## BeyondTheNow (3 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Speaking as a former Instructor at CFLRS (I've been gone from CFLRS for over a decade), I'd like to make a point;  IF you're told "Don't worry it has been taken care of", or words to that effect, I suggest you do follow up.  If there was no 'words' from the Platoon Staff, including the Platoon Officer, to the entire course if/when something like this has been reported, that is usually a decent indicator the staff do not know about it.  If people are not being 'interviewed/questioned' by staff, that could also be an indicator that staff do not know.  If an incident is alleged to have happened, usually actions will be taken (informally and/or formally) to determine what happened, who was involved, is administrative and/or disciplinary warranted, should a UDI be ordered/MPs contacted, etc.  If you're not sure if it was reported and you feel it is something that should be, ask to talk to your staff, NCOs, Officer, someone.
> 
> We will continue to have this crap in the CAF as long as it exists in Canadian society, where we recruit from.  Personally, I've not seen or heard of anything like this in many years.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the insight. I did, eventually, figure out your point ref reporting while there, but only after time had passed, unfortunately. 

As well, I honestly could never figure out how effective reporting an incident was. Ideally, I think we all understand how things _should_ flow once the staff is made aware. But in notable instances, in my experience at least, it didn’t turn out that way. And more often then not, people ended up choosing not to report at all. 

Unfortunately, I will admit that I’m negatively biased towards CFLRS due to my experiences while there (for far too long). I gained a great deal of knowledge and insight, and experienced far more than most do. To a degree I’m thankful. There were some things I look back on fondly, but not many. What I shared was only scratching the surface.


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## BeyondTheNow (3 Jan 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> You are trying to change human nature which is impossible btw.  The CAF goes to great lengths to prevent these sorts of incidents but we aren't miracle workers and we aren't going to catch them all.



I don’t feel I’m trying to change human nature. I’m very aware of what’s out there via certain areas of employment before CAF and having the personal experiences I have in my background. I do feel, however, that I’m trying to make others more aware of behaviours still occurring. As I mentioned earlier, I zeroed in on thoughts expressed from those who didn’t think any problems exist at all.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jan 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The guy was a PAFFO after a brief stint as a Inf Pl Comd, career reservist. His bio never indicates any Middle East deployment, but as a PAFFO he went to Haiti and Rwanda, likely on TAVs.
> 
> Full bio (news article format) here: https://militarybruce.com/journalist-soldier-comes-full-circle-2/



Possible. I'm sure you're picking up what I'm laying down about the picture. Not a big deal, just a curiosity. 

I remember church services but they never were mandatory for us or much pressure. 
Drinking in the mess? Lots of harassment if you didn't drink booze. I'd like to say mess life is different now but if you spend 3 months away from your family and the day you hey home there's a mess function guess what, you're going to the mess.

Proud to say there's no bullshit hazing or abuse in my infantry battalion. 

Btn that's a messed up story. Maybe I should get a posting over there and sort that place out.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Btn that's a messed up story. Maybe I should get a posting over there and sort that place out.



Unless you'd be going as the RSM, don't waste your time. There's a terrible culture at CFLRS that chews up and spits out competent instructors. It needs to be torn down and rebuilt but that would take some wholesale top down postings.


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## Old Sweat (4 Jan 2019)

I won't get too deep into the issue, other than to say the day I became an officer cadet in 1961 and was welcomed into the officers' mess in 4 RCHA, one of the battery commanders, who was a very heavy drinker, advised me to watch the booze. I also served with officers who did not drink, and no one every questioned if they merited the Queen's commission.

And a hallowed part of our creed was that we never discussed religion, along with politics and women by name. Being young, single officers, you can guess which of the three we tended to observe less scrupulously.


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## BeyondTheNow (4 Jan 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Unless you'd be going as the RSM, don't waste your time. There's a terrible culture at CFLRS that chews up and spits out competent instructors. It needs to be torn down and rebuilt but that would take some wholesale top down postings.



This is absolutely true.

I watched some of my favourites deteriorate to varying degrees over my time arriving and my time officially leaving approx 15mths later. They became visibly, negatively affected. 

(As a side note: If this happens to some fully-trained, qualified and competent members, imagine what it does to recruits who are literally stuck there long-term.   :-\ )


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## TCM621 (4 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I’m kind of a bit taken aback by some of the posts in this thread. It sounds as though just because one didn’t experience it personally or hear about it, it must not be happening.
> 
> Let me tell you a story from CFLRS that happened within the last 5yrs. I won’t narrow down the date any further. I’ve been starting and stopping this post repeatedly since reading some of the responses. There’s absolutely no logical way that I’m the only one who’s come across scenarios such as the one I’m about to share, or other instances of disgusting behaviour.
> 
> ...



I think that would be bullying rather than hazing. Either way it sucked for this kid and any one who thinks ganging up on a kid and draw swastikas on his forehead would be on the receiving end of a beating if I had my way.

With all that said, let me give an example of something that may have seemed unacceptable but really worked out for the best. I was on course with my own "Stan". Nice guy but a bit of a nerd. He dressed like a nerd, he talked like a nerd and when I first met him, I would have said he had no place in the military. I actually told him I was offended by his presence when he gave up after like 4 push ups. I rode that kid hard but he refused to give up. He practiced push ups every day, asked for help with drill (and actually practiced) and helped his section at every opportunity. Pretty soon he was keeping up for runs, passing his express test and just trying harder than virtually everyone else.

One of my favourite moments in my career was watching conquer the wall on an obstacle course. He had yet to succeed up to this point but he hung on to that thing looking like a monkey trying to hump a football. I ran up to the wall and started screaming at him to get over the wall. It was like a training montages in a movie. When he finally made it over the course went nuts because everyone recognized how hard he had worked. I couldn't have been more proud of him and I think he ld him so. 

He never did up going into the trade he joined (which he was completely unsuited for) but he continued on and was successful. More importantly we all loved him because he had heart. We rode him and he responded. He is, in all probability, a better man for that experience. He thanked me for motivating him and helping him. That is the key, I think. If you are going to come aboard someone for being a shit pump, be prepared to help him if he asks. Riding someone who is not performing isn't always a bad thing but it has to be done right. The goal is to get someone to improve not quit.


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## Remius (4 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> The points I zeroed in on from posts are the ones intimating that nothing nefarious is taking place, either ritual, bullying, or otherwise, at the recruit and/or training level and beyond.



I went back and read every post and didn't get that from anyone.  No one here in this thread has intimated that at all. 

There is some disagreement on whether it is "Thriving" and some questions about the author's arguments and perspective.  But no one said it isn't happening.


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## BeyondTheNow (4 Jan 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I went back and read every post and didn't get that from anyone.  No one here in this thread has intimated that at all.
> 
> There is some disagreement on whether it is "Thriving" and some questions about the author's arguments and perspective.  But no one said it isn't happening.



Agreed. I went back and read also. I also agree with the points made to me/my post earlier about hazing and bullying being different. And in retrospect I’ve most certainly been coming from the angle of bullying more so than hazing, which sheds more light on why certain statements stuck out to me. There are 3 specific segments which caught my attention and prompted my post. All of which in one way or another seemed to downplay the possibility of certain behaviours taking place. But seeing as I agree that I wasn’t looking at the issue strictly from a hazing point of view, (and more so from a bullying standpoint—and I developed tunnel vision to a degree there) which is the point of the original article, it’s moot.


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## Remius (4 Jan 2019)

For some context of the difference between hazing and bullying.

https://canada.humankinetics.com/blogs/excerpt/the-differences-between-bullying-and-hazing-and-how-you-can-prevent-it

https://hazingprevention.org/home/hazing/hazing-and-bullying/


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Jan 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's a terrible culture at CFLRS



This was certainly true when I was there (2006/07 timeframe).  I can't speak for present day, but of all the places I was glad to leave, this one would be at the top of my list.


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## FSTO (4 Jan 2019)

Is it true that the building is based on a prison design? That's what I heard when I was incarcerated there in 1990 for 6 months of language training! LOL!

I'm convinced that the Mega is the source of everything wrong in CFLRS to this day. No wonder there is such a toxic culture there.

Wasn't that place built in the 70's? How much LSD laced food were the architects eating in those days? God there was some bad decisions in that decade!


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## garb811 (4 Jan 2019)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I think that would be bullying rather than hazing.
> ...


Again, this was NOT bullying, it was Assault. People need to stop minimizing the actions of what goes on around them by trying to attribute things to "bullying" or "sexual harassment" simply because those are the easy outs and the flavour of the day.

Just to make it super clear:



> Assault
> 
> 265 (1) A person commits an assault when
> 
> ...



Bullying is what you did to "your own Stan" when you told him you were offended by his presence when I presume you were his DS. Toxic leadership 101, notwithstanding that he carried on and finished. What kind of opening did you give to the other candidates on that course if/when they heard you say that? Think they might have thought it was fair game to go after "Stan" the same way you did?


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## Infanteer (4 Jan 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Again, this was NOT bullying, it was Assault.



I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.  Bullying as a concept can manifest itself in a variety of criminal acts - assault, harassment, unlawful confinement.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Again, this was NOT bullying, it was Assault. People need to stop minimizing the actions of what goes on around them by trying to attribute things to "bullying" or "sexual harassment" simply because those are the easy outs and the flavour of the day.



While undergoing command team level Operation HONOUR cascade training, we reviewed the scenario where the male member forcibly and angrily grabs his female partner by the arm and shakes her in the mess.  Most present went towards the "bullying" or "harassment" answer.  When I pointed out that this was Assault as per CCC 256 (1)a, I was greeted with looks of incredulity and "that can't be!".  The idea that this member in the scenario had committed a criminal offence, in addition to violating the Operation HONOUR directive was beyond almost all present.


----------



## Infanteer (4 Jan 2019)

I'm not sure why - perhaps its blinders?  If some kid at school punches my kid in the face, its clearly bullying, in the form of assault.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why - perhaps its blinders?  If some kid at school punches my kid in the face, its clearly bullying, in the form of assault.



Definitely assault.  Bullying may be harder to prove unless there is a pattern of actions (physical, psychological etc.) by an individual or group aimed at a specific individual.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (4 Jan 2019)

In Haggis' scenario, I am surprised nobody intimated that it would also constitute a service offence that should attract a charge.

I am less surprised, however, when I consider that in my career, most people I have observed (at least in the Navy) were always recalcitrant where the laying of charges was concerned and somehow always preferred to deal with arising situations by the use of administrative measures - vice disciplinary ones. In my mind, it would tend to minimize the "inappropriate" character of many types of acts I have witnessed.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It is unfortunate the Duty NCO didn't go thru your Sector while this was happening, BTN.



That's probably the nugget right there. 

'Single men (or women) in barracks don't grow into plaster saints', indeed. Having an NCO physically located in the accommodation during the evening hours to address crimes like this is critical IMHO. I assume that it's not always possible, however, due to manning issues.

BTN, good for you in coming forward and complaining. It takes alot of guts, and not everyone has them in that measure


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> In Haggis' scenario, I am surprised nobody intimated that it would also constitute a service offence that should attract a charge.


That discussion followed as the option of laying a charge under NDA 130 was brought out.



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I am less surprised, however, when I consider that in my career, most people I have observed (at least in the Navy) were always recalcitrant where the laying of charges was concerned and somehow always preferred to deal with arising situations by the use of administrative measures - vice disciplinary ones. In my mind, it would tend to minimize the "inappropriate" character of many types of acts I have witnessed.


This has been my experience as well.  Many still believe that disciplinary measures (i.e. charges/convictions) are more damaging to a member's career than administrative actions when, in fact, the reverse is true.  One can always get a record suspension for a service offence conviction, but not for a Recorded Warning.


----------



## Remius (4 Jan 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Again, this was NOT bullying, it was Assault. People need to stop minimizing the actions of what goes on around them by trying to attribute things to "bullying" or "sexual harassment" simply because those are the easy outs and the flavour of the day.



So, this is an exerpt from the link I provided a few posts up.

_Bullying is an act of aggression by someone or a group with the intent of harming a person either physically or psychologically. Bullying may occur by hitting, threatening, intimidating, teasing and taunting, and name-calling, or by more subtle attacks such as spreading rumors or encouraging others to reject the person. Bullies target individuals whom they perceive are weaker or more vulnerable._

Assault is part of a bully's arsenal.  So yes it is assault.  The assault may have been part of a larger problem.  Just like domestic abuse.  It may include verbal and physical assault. Elder abuse is a real thing.  It does not always include physical violence but it can. 

I don't think that anyone these days is minimising bullying or assault.  Quite the opposite.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (4 Jan 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Is it true that the building is based on a prison design? That's what I heard when I was incarcerated there in 1990 for 6 months of language training! LOL!
> 
> I'm convinced that the Mega is the source of everything wrong in CFLRS to this day. No wonder there is such a toxic culture there...



That rumour is still very much alive and thriving. I’ve never bothered trying to look into its accuracy, but it’s easy to believe, even if totally false. Its design is bizarre and the lack (or very minimal amount) of natural light accessing its corridors and many classrooms/offices, even when not in the basement, makes it even worse. (Especially blue sector.)

Your words are disheartening, because you aren’t the first one I’ve heard utter the same sentiment.

As was stated to me during one of many conversations outlining the issues with that place, it’s mostly just a tick in the box for many, or a ‘punishment posting’ for others. And although many know it needs fixing, if one is legitimately in a position to be able to make a difference, they won’t take the reigns and hunker down in seriously addressing the problems in case they end up having to be posted there longer to see it through.


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## Remius (4 Jan 2019)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> That rumour is still very much alive and thriving. I’ve never bothered trying to look into its accuracy, but it’s easy to believe, even if totally false. Its design is bizarre and the lack (or very minimal amount) of natural light accessing its corridors and many classrooms/offices, even when not in the basement, makes it even worse. (Especially blue sector.)
> 
> Your words are disheartening, because you aren’t the first one I’ve heard utter the same sentiment.
> 
> As was stated to me during one of many conversations outlining the issues with that place, it’s mostly just a tick in the box for many, or a ‘punishment posting’ for others. And although many know it needs fixing, if one is legitimately in a position to be able to make a difference, they won’t take the reigns and hunker down in seriously addressing the problems in case they end up having to be posted there longer to see it through.



Not sure if this is relevant or not.  How many instructors are class b reservists? A while ago it used to be a significant percentage.   Not to knock reservists, I am one, but I have seen some young inexperienced reserve instructors that were not properly mentored or supervised.  Most have never experienced CFLRS but now would be teaching there? possibly longer than they should be (ie class b trap)

Could that be an issue or is it something that runs deeper that exasperates other issues?


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## TCM621 (4 Jan 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Again, this was NOT bullying, it was Assault. People need to stop minimizing the actions of what goes on around them by trying to attribute things to "bullying" or "sexual harassment" simply because those are the easy outs and the flavour of the day.
> 
> Just to make it super clear:
> 
> Bullying is what you did to "your own Stan" when you told him you were offended by his presence when I presume you were his DS. Toxic leadership 101, notwithstanding that he carried on and finished. What kind of opening did you give to the other candidates on that course if/when they heard you say that? Think they might have thought it was fair game to go after "Stan" the same way you did?



I wasn't his DS, we were coursemates but i had a decade in at that point. I was being mean when I said that and the thought of a guy who gave up after 4 push ups going into battle with my brothers did offend me. The point was he worked and earned my, and everyone else's, respect despite his appearance, social skills, etc. He was never bullied by any of the other course mates because he worked hard and it was recognized.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Not sure if this is relevant or not.  How many instructors are class b reservists? A while ago it used to be a significant percentage.   Not to knock reservists, I am one, but I have seen some young inexperienced reserve instructors that were not properly mentored or supervised.  Most have never experienced CFLRS but now would be teaching there? possibly longer than they should be (ie class b trap)
> 
> Could that be an issue or is it something that runs deeper that exasperates other issues?



I can't speak to the Reservist portion, but in order to bring staff up to "standard", CFLRS runs its own instructor leadership type course. If the course was done properly, it should be enough to bring any PLQ MS/MCpl up to speed and make them competent instructors. The problem is how do you get your best and brightest to take a $600 a month pay cut, plus increased income taxes to go teach BMQ for 3 years? You're volunteering to be in a meat grinder. I'd absolutely love to go instruct on a BMQ, but I'd never do that to my wallet or my family. I would, however, take a CFTPO to go instruct on 1 course to fill gaps from the permanent staff.


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## Haggis (4 Jan 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Not sure if this is relevant or not.  How many instructors are class b reservists? A while ago it used to be a significant percentage.   Not to knock reservists, I am one, but I have seen some young inexperienced reserve instructors that were not properly mentored or supervised.  Most have never experienced CFLRS but now would be teaching there? possibly longer than they should be (ie class b trap)
> 
> Could that be an issue or is it something that runs deeper that exasperates other issues?



I was a member of the NCMPD CWOs Working Group from 2009 - 2013, the exact time frame when the CAFs addiction to Class B's was the only way to make up the staffing shortfalls forced on us by Afghanistan. The Working Group would visit CFLRS frequently to view the training and get feedback on  a variety of issues facing the CFLRS.

We saw no difference in the quality of instructors between Reg F and P Res (Class B).  Both had rockstars and thuds in their ranks.  In fact, at the Farnham Garrison, the OC, CSM and about half the instructors were Class B, but they were also all ex-Reg F.  Properly trained, led, mentored and managed, both Reg F and P Res members can excel.  And, as one other member of the Working Group used to say "there's no hat badge on a helmet".


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## Remius (4 Jan 2019)

Ok, that's good to hear. 

I've worked in a few places where some class B types were beyond their best before date.  Myself included in one particular case.  

Thanks for the insight.


----------



## ballz (9 Jan 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> What's more important than it occurring (because young "A-type" personalities are always going to pull stunts like this) is what is done by the chain of command upon finding out?  What leadership does when they do see it happen should give us an idea of whether it thrives or not.  The incident in Winnipeg is an example - the chain of command is engaged and is cleaning house to address the problem they've identified.



This is a terrible example to support your point. It was a catastrophic failure that resulted in the loss of life. The Chain of Command did find out about it, they did nothing, they continued to do nothing, a soldier killed himself, they subsequently did nothing, and only after a BOI (mandatory because a soldier died during a training exercise) and a Brigadier-General having the buck land on his desk did *anything* happen.

This incident is yet another example of the CAF leadership not being competent enough to do anything to right the ship until a complete and utter catastrophic failure occurs which renders no other option. It is not a feather in the cap of leadership.The only thing done right here started at way to high of a level. 

The only point to sustain is that the Div Comd wasn't afraid to say on national television "the senior leadership involved screwed the pooch on this one, we've had to fire them and now we've got to fix this." That's handling it well from a public affairs perspective, as the talking heads are usually assuring the public that our senior leadership is great, blaming the junior personnel and promising to provide them with better training so *they* don't make the same mistake again, never acknowledging the senior leadership failures. Example, the Tiger Williams / VIP flights debacle.


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## Infanteer (9 Jan 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> The only point to sustain is that the Div Comd wasn't afraid to say on national television "the senior leadership involved screwed the pooch on this one, we've had to fire them and now we've got to fix this."



I was referring to the Division Commander's actions with my example, so I probably should have been more clear - because the unit leadership clearly was deficit.  Once he found out the extent of the problem, he took action, fired leaders who didn't do their job, and has put measures in to fix the issue.  That's a big difference from what transpired in the 1990s, with keeping things quite and shuttling people off to get promoted down the road....


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## Lumber (9 Jan 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I was referring to the Division Commander's actions with my example, so I probably should have been more clear - because the unit leadership clearly was deficit.  Once he found out the extent of the problem, he took action, fired leaders who didn't do their job, and has put measures in to fix the issue.  That's a big difference from what transpired in the 1990s, with keeping things quite and shuttling people off to get promoted down the road....



What incident are you guys talking about? I just finished reading the whole thread and I didn't notice a description of the initial incident.


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## ballz (9 Jan 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> What incident are you guys talking about? I just finished reading the whole thread and I didn't notice a description of the initial incident.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/military-suicide-minto-armoury-1.4946583

Discussed on our forums here https://army.ca/forums/threads/129558.0


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## Lumber (9 Jan 2019)

Is any "initiation" ritual considered "hazing"? We have a lot of initiation rituals in the Navy, but I wouldn't call them "hazing". Some are voluntary, some are not.

For example, "7 days at sea". When a sailor has been at sea for 7 straight days for the first time in their career, their wingers usually surprise them on watch with a pie to the face, or an raw eggs shampooing. Technically, you could call this textbook assault, but I've never heard anyone complain, and msot of the sailors I've seen come away smiling, I assume because the feeling of accomplishment (i.e. "I'm a real _sailor _now") and camaraderie.

The other more intensive initiation ritual, which is completely voluntary, is of course, our line crossing ceremonies. Is it hazing if it is voluntary, even though it might be unpleasant? (interesting tidbit from a ceremony I participated in: I love hot sauce, and I really like corn pops, a strawberry coulis is great, but eating the three together will make you want to hurl)


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## PuckChaser (9 Jan 2019)

If they aren't comfortable with the events, don't consent but are still forced to do things, or are treated differently if they choose not to participate it would still be hazing in my books.

In this day and age if the Navy still wants to do stuff like that, each member should be fully informed as to what each ritual is and consent to it in advance, as well as making sure that anyone not consenting isn't ostracized because they're not comfortable with doing whatever wierd stuff you guys come up with.


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## Rifleman62 (9 Jan 2019)

> For example, "7 days at sea". When a sailor has been at sea for 7 straight days for the first time in their career, their wingers usually surprise them on watch with a pie to the face, or an raw eggs shampooing.



How did this come about? How does it relate to the Navy, or being at sea? Pies/eggs? Line crossing ceremonies I understand.


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## ballz (9 Jan 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I was referring to the Division Commander's actions with my example, so I probably should have been more clear - because the unit leadership clearly was deficit.  Once he found out the extent of the problem, he took action, fired leaders who didn't do their job, and has put measures in to fix the issue.  That's a big difference from what transpired in the 1990s, with keeping things quite and shuttling people off to get promoted down the road....



I guess, if the context is to compare to the standard 20 years ago, then I can concede example makes sense as to show some improvement. But, I was 4 years old during the Somalia affair so from my perspective, that the buck didn't stop until a Brigadier-General's desk on this one shows that the bar for accountability still has a long ways to go, as that bar is not something I associate with / consider.

We can't expect Brigadier-Generals to know about this stuff going on within unit lines, and therefore be able to step in and _prevent_ these types of environments from becoming poisonous. If the bar is set any higher than a unit CO's desk on these types of localized issues, then the bar isn't high enough. What I wonder is if those who were even closer to the problems, such as Pl Comds and SNCOs, actually felt that the environment was wrong but felt powerless to do anything about it because they wouldn't be backed by those who have the actual authority required (such as the sub-unit command team, and unit command team) to reinforce change to a positive direction.


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## ballz (9 Jan 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> How did this come about? How does it relate to the Navy, or being at sea? Pies/eggs? Line crossing ceremonies I understand.



I think Lumber brings up a great question. It is not a black and white issue. Not everything has a negative affect on individuals nor group morale. If you want to be part of a group, there is *always* some level of conformity required. Are we seriously going to say that  the CAF could be an effective machine without some level of conformity? Without group norms, traditions, rites of passage, etc? Could BMQ or BMOQ not be construed as sanctioned hazing in an attempt to achieve conformity?


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## Haggis (9 Jan 2019)

ballz said:
			
		

> I think Lumber brings up a great question. It is not a black and white issue. Not everything has a negative affect on individuals nor group morale. If you want to be part of a group, there is *always* some level of conformity required. Are we seriously going to say that  the CAF could be an effective machine without some level of conformity? Without group norms, traditions, rites of passage, etc? Could BMQ or BMOQ not be construed as sanctioned hazing in an attempt to achieve conformity?



There has to be some nexus to a bonafide operational requirement (BFOR) for all training and activities conducted during BMQ/BMOQ and other PD/training.  One issue is that the nexus is not always apparent to the trainee.  Maybe it was poorly articulated by the staff?  Maybe the trainee was not intellectually able to draw the link?  (i.e. why do I have to go through the gas hut if I already trust that the mask will work?)

Some traditions are key to fostering conformity and group cohesion.  A good example would be the USMCs "Crucible" exercise which has a clear BFOR nexus and is the final validation of boot camp training.  In my mind, an initiation/rite of passage must have a desirable outcome and be something, while apprehended to a degree, is looked upon favourably by the participants.  Nothing worthwhile should ever come easy particularly when lives are at stake.  

Over the years I've been subjected to several initiations/rites of passage etc.  Some made sense.  Some did not, at the time.  Some never did.  Luckily I never suffered serious physical or mental injury as a result.  Traditions come and go.  Things that were done to me four decades ago, while acceptable then, would result in jail time for the staff these days.  I have no heartache with that. The "good old days" weren't always good.


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## AbdullahD (9 Jan 2019)

I was debating sharing this, but figured might as well. Lumber got me thinking about initiation vs hazing and I stumbled upon this, it touches on that and that North American culture could be well served having more substantial initiation rights.

Slightly off topic, but it is interesting at least to me.

https://www.samwoolfe.com/2014/06/the-psychology-of-initiation-rites.html

Abdullah


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## Kat Stevens (9 Jan 2019)

Certain groups in our country start ritual initiation when they cut the tips off their infant male offspring's penis. It can only get better from there.


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## AbdullahD (10 Jan 2019)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Certain groups in our country start ritual initiation when they cut the tips off their infant male offspring's penis. It can only get better from there.



See that is interesting rituals, traditions and/or initiations that are "as old as time" must have started for a reason... 

But whether those reasons exist in this day and age and whether those traditions should be practiced is another discussion.

https://www.healthline.com/health/mens-health/circumcised-vs-uncircumcised#risk-of-infection

I know men who have been circumcised as an adult due to medical reasons, upon looking into it more hygiene, STD prevention etc makes the pro vs con, barbaric or not conversation far more interesting. Practicing upon kids who can not realistically understand or respect the gravity of the decision is another discussion to have as well... but I think this if for another thread lol

Abdullah


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## Kat Stevens (10 Jan 2019)

The hygiene argument has been torpedoed since soap became a thing, and STDs? Really?  Stick your best friend in a dirty place, and I can guarantee that a condom is far better protection than a mutilated foreskin.


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## AbdullahD (10 Jan 2019)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The hygiene argument has been torpedoed since soap became a thing, and STDs? Really?  Stick your best friend in a dirty place, and I can guarantee that a condom is far better protection than a mutilated foreskin.



Condoms, yes are better. But sometimes unavailable or not used.. so an argument is there to cicumsize. this link has links to 104 different pages discussing it or research papers covering it. 

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/vanhowe6/

Soap and hygeine? I would have been inclined to agree, but it seems even with the advent of soap it is still issues.

https://www.circinfo.net/penile_hygiene.html

Now how needed these traditions are in the modern era, is a discussion that I think religions could be well served having it is to bad emotions get involved to easily due to the personal nature of it.

This is a very debatable issue, I think we will not be able to agree on it. But we will derail this thread badly.

Abdullah


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## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Jan 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> How did this come about? How does it relate to the Navy, or being at sea? Pies/eggs? Line crossing ceremonies I understand.



I think Rifleman is referring to the "7-days-at-sea-pie-in-the-face" thing only.

And quite frankly, that's a new one to me. Served a little over 24 years exclusively in the RCN until I retired in 2001 and I have never heard of nor ever witnessed that alleged "tradition". It also wouldn't have waited very long in those days, as we basically sailed 7 straight or more just about once every second month.

Other than crossing the line ceremonies, I can't think of much in the Navy of that time that would constitute hazing, other perhaps than the odd person with bad personal hygiene being shown that showers exist in a rather rough way.


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## Rifleman62 (10 Jan 2019)

Where do the "wingers" obtain (purchase  ) the pies/eggs on board a ship? If there were 5/10/20 newbies, that's a lot of rations wasted.


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## Furniture (10 Jan 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Where do the "wingers" obtain (purchase  ) the pies/eggs on board a ship? If there were 5/10/20 newbies, that's a lot of rations wasted.



In my experience it's no more of a waste than letting the cooks run any of the food through the Flavoursuck3000 and throw it on the steam line...   :boke:

I have no idea when the 7 days at sea thing started, but by the time I was sailing on the Left Coast in 2012 it was well established.


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## Navy_Pete (10 Jan 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> In my experience it's no more of a waste than letting the cooks run any of the food through the Flavoursuck3000 and throw it on the steam line...   :boke:
> 
> I have no idea when the 7 days at sea thing started, but by the time I was sailing on the Left Coast in 2012 it was well established.



I vaguely remember it starting to be a thing in the late 2000s; probably a new tradition that grew up around a time when people were struggling to get enough sea time to complete their OJTs.

Now we've gone hard over to the riding the ships hard, putting them away wet, and wondering why we get major failures, but life without challenges is boring.


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## TCM621 (10 Jan 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I think Rifleman is referring to the "7-days-at-sea-pie-in-the-face" thing only.
> 
> And quite frankly, that's a new one to me. Served a little over 24 years exclusively in the RCN until I retired in 2001 and I have never heard of nor ever witnessed that alleged "tradition". It also wouldn't have waited very long in those days, as we basically sailed 7 straight or more just about once every second month.
> 
> Other than crossing the line ceremonies, I can't think of much in the Navy of that time that would constitute hazing, other perhaps than the odd person with bad personal hygiene being shown that showers exist in a rather rough way.



When I was in the Navy, some people got "hazed" during their first seven days at sea. It was real popular among the bosuns. The other one I saw was when one of the MS changed messes. His friends would often helpfully pack up all his gear and his mattress to help him move. Copious amounts of duct tape may have been involved. 

I think some sorts of initiation rituals are extremely valuable and in some cases the worth is directly related to the discomfort. One role of these rituals was to strength camaraderie though mutually shared miserable experiences. if you ask virtually any CAF member what a change parade is, they will know and the vast majority will have some story about their experiences. That is something we all share that Rob at the Bank doesn't understand. The weird insults that only seem to exist in the military is another. If you call someone a blade everyone in the CAF knows what you mean or if you call an MP a meathead, we all know what you mean. These are all little rituals we share with each other adn it brings us together.

All hazing rituals have this ideal at their core. Where we get lost is that the military is an organization where toughness is a virtue and people will take things a step (or ten) too far. The video of 1 Commando leading the black guy around on a leash back in the 90s is a horrible example of hazing gone wrong. A good initiation can be scary, or exciting, or uncomfortable but it is usually followed up by an outpouring of camaraderie and welcome. I actually support sanctioned initiation rituals because then it can be kept in check. Rather than have a couple of random Cpls or Jnr officers deciding what is appropriate, we can have the leadership over see it and (hopefully) use their authority and experience to ensure the end result is positive.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jan 2019)

What about the initiation traditions are RMC?  Those are known, supervised events AFIAK...yet to some it might make some 1st years uncomfortable...and then, not long after, they're the ones 'administering' the next group of 1st years.

Hazing, or tradition?


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## Stoker (10 Jan 2019)

Seen the "seven days" at sea in 1992 when I was sailing in HMCS Terra Nova, usually you were duct-taped up in the mess and threatened. Fast forward to present day and you are accused of hazing for making sailors go through the crossing the line ceremony. :


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## Lumber (10 Jan 2019)

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Seen the "seven days" at sea in 1992 when I was sailing in HMCS Terra Nova, usually you were duct-taped up in the mess and threatened. Fast forward to present day and you are accused of hazing for making sailors go through the crossing the line ceremony. :



Well, maybe this is just your choice of words, it since the line ceremony is now voluntary, were you to "make" someone go through it, then yes, it would be hazing (although having now graduated to shellback, I can say the ceremony wouldn't be much of a bad experience to be forced through).


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## Stoker (10 Jan 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Well, maybe this is just your choice of words, it since the line ceremony is now voluntary, were you to "make" someone go through it, then yes, it would be hazing (although having now graduated to shellback, I can say the ceremony wouldn't be much of a bad experience to be forced through).



Pretty tame now, the majority goes through with it although peer pressure plays a part in some cases. The last ship I saw paint the bullring, they were even clothed so it is getting civilized and a far cry from what I did in 92.


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## Furniture (10 Jan 2019)

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Pretty tame now, the majority goes through with it although peer pressure plays a part in some cases. The last ship I saw paint the bullring, they were even clothed so it is getting civilized and a far cry from what I did in 92.



Are you referring to the actual "crossing the line" or the weird Halifax custom of calling crossing the Arctic Circle "crossing the line"? One(the actual crossing the line) is internationally recognized buy the term "crossing the line", the other is only an East coast thing... The red and white lines are really cute though...


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## Brad Sallows (10 Jan 2019)

If ethical leadership is weak or absent, cohesive groups can develop bad habits.

The Darker Side of the Force: The Negative Influence of Cohesion (in Military Review, Mar-Apr 2001).

The key is leadership.  Without leadership (the full chain - not just the one guy nominally in charge), a group sets its own values.


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## FSTO (10 Jan 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Are you referring to the actual "crossing the line" or the weird Halifax custom of calling crossing the Arctic Circle "crossing the line"? One(the actual crossing the line) is internationally recognized buy the term "crossing the line", the other is only an East coast thing... The red and white lines are really cute though...



The red and white lines? Are you talking about the red and white lines around the mast base?
Canadian Naval group

The famous Barber Pole Group was originally a group of 120 Flower-class corvettes built in Canada during World War II, and charged primarily with protecting freighter convoys. The original group was Escort Group C-3. This group of ships, with its red and white barber pole stripes painted on the funnel, is still represented in the current Royal Canadian Navy: all Atlantic fleet ships wear this insignia. HMCS Sackville is the last remaining Flower-class corvette.

As for crossing the Arctic circle, that usually involves the youngest pair of officers proceeding to the focsle and painting the bull ring blue. The current base commander of Halifax did that when he was a subbie in HMCS FRASER. I wasn't there but I heard that him and the other officer did it (the painting) naked. 
Now the subbies wear a bathing suit.


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## Underway (10 Jan 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Are you referring to the actual "crossing the line" or the weird Halifax custom of calling crossing the Arctic Circle "crossing the line"? One(the actual crossing the line) is internationally recognized buy the term "crossing the line", the other is only an East coast thing... The red and white lines are really cute though...



Not an East Coast thing.  Crossing the arctic circle is an important event in many navies worldwide.  Joining the "Loyal Order of the Polar Bear" goes back to at least WW2 as the RCN Ceremonial Flagship has a half blue bullring (other half is red).  I expect when the West Coast gets the AOPS you're going to get that tradition cropping up there as well.  

And even if it isn't the original crossing the line, traditions are allowed to evolve.

And its the youngest officer and youngest NCM who paints the bullring IIRC.


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## Furniture (10 Jan 2019)

Underway said:
			
		

> Not an East Coast thing.  Crossing the arctic circle is an important event in many navies worldwide.  Joining the "Loyal Order of the Polar Bear" goes back to at least WW2 as the RCN Ceremonial Flagship has a half blue bullring (other half is red).  I expect when the West Coast gets the AOPS you're going to get that tradition cropping up there as well.
> 
> And even if it isn't the original crossing the line, traditions are allowed to evolve.
> 
> And its the youngest officer and youngest NCM who paints the bullring IIRC.



My post as a playful poke at the other coast, as someone that sailed Best Coast. 

I'm well aware that crossing the Arctic Circle is a recognized maritime tradition around the world, and it has a fairly long history. That said, "crossing the line" or "line crossing" is mostly recognized internationally as crossing the equator. I've only ever heard people that have sailed on the other coast refer to themselves as Shellbacks for crossing the Arctic Circle.

Seriously though, the candy-cane strip is very nice...


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## FSTO (11 Jan 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> My post as a playful poke at the other coast, as someone that sailed Best Coast.
> 
> I'm well aware that crossing the Arctic Circle is a recognized maritime tradition around the world, and it has a fairly long history. That said, "crossing the line" or "line crossing" is mostly recognized internationally as crossing the equator. I've only ever heard people that have sailed on the other coast refer to themselves as Shellbacks for crossing the Arctic Circle.
> 
> Seriously though, the candy-cane strip is very nice...



Are the bathtub sailors really saying that they are shellbacks because they crossed the Arctic Circle? Pretentious buggers those least coasters are!


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## MARS (11 Jan 2019)

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Seen the "seven days" at sea in 1992 when I was sailing in HMCS Terra Nova, usually you were duct-taped up in the mess and threatened. Fast forward to present day and you are accused of hazing for making sailors go through the crossing the line ceremony. :



My experience was in HMCS Saskatchewan in '91.  I was an OSBN. This was just prior to women being allowed to serve at sea in the RegF.  The 'threat' was sodomy with a marlin spike.  Nothing ever came of it, at least for me, except a lot of a sweating bullets for 7 days and a lot of relief on the 8th day when the Deck Department laughed at us newbies once we realized it wasn't actually going to happen.  But I didn't sleep at all on the 7th night. I just assumed that was the point - the fear factor - and hadn't actually seen or heard of the ritual since.

I'm of the opinion that a voluntary crossing the line ceremony is entirely appropriate.  My first one was not in any way voluntary but it did have the desired effect of bonding the crew together.  But there was bleeding and bruising...I was struck in the head with a sap - there were stiches after the ceremony - as were a bunch of other tadpoles.  I was personally no worse for wear from it, but I obviously still remember it viscerally, and I can easily imagine folks who were there who suffered more than I did and who would harbour feelings opposite my own on the matter even today.  The video footage that was anonymously sent to the CBC in the midst of the Somalia Affair in the mid-90s, when the CAR's own hazing rituals were all over the news - that footage was taken from the TG I was apart of in '91. The ceremony was more brutal than Crossing the Line ceremony I have seen since - again, there were no women in 3 of the 4 ships in the TG at that time.

ERC recalls the situation from a different perspective than I do - an NDHQ perspective , but I believe is was VAdm Murray at the time who, when confronted with the accusation that Crossing the Line was simply just another hazing ritual that needed to be stopped immediately, properly responded that no, it was nothing like what was happening in the CAR and that it deserved to be a ceremony that remained part of the Navy experience. I really think, at that time, we came very close to losing the ability to perform this ceremony ever again.  The ceremony shouldn't be as pointlessly brutal and abusive as my first one, but I do agree that it is a valuable bonding experience, if executed correctly.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Jan 2019)

> Australia
> 
> In 1995, a notorious line-crossing ceremony took place on a Royal Australian Navysubmarine, HMAS Onslow. Sailors undergoing the ceremony were physically and verbally abused before being subjected to an act called "sump on the rump", where a dark liquid was daubed over each sailor's anus and genitalia. One sailor was then sexually assaulted with a long stick before all sailors undergoing the ceremony were forced to jump overboard until permitted to climb back aboard the submarine. A videotape of the ceremony was obtained by the Nine Networkand aired on Australian television. The television coverage provoked widespread criticism, especially when the videotape showed some of the submarine's officers watching the entire proceedings from the conning tower.



Navy has some weird traditions.


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## Stoker (11 Jan 2019)

MARS said:
			
		

> My experience was in HMCS Saskatchewan in '91.  I was an OSBN. This was just prior to women being allowed to serve at sea in the RegF.  The 'threat' was sodomy with a marlin spike.  Nothing ever came of it, at least for me, except a lot of a sweating bullets for 7 days and a lot of relief on the 8th day when the Deck Department laughed at us newbies once we realized it wasn't actually going to happen.  But I didn't sleep at all on the 7th night. I just assumed that was the point - the fear factor - and hadn't actually seen or heard of the ritual since.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that a voluntary crossing the line ceremony is entirely appropriate.  My first one was not in any way voluntary but it did have the desired effect of bonding the crew together.  But there was bleeding and bruising...I was struck in the head with a sap - there were stiches after the ceremony - as were a bunch of other tadpoles.  I was personally no worse for wear from it, but I obviously still remember it viscerally, and I can easily imagine folks who were there who suffered more than I did and who would harbour feelings opposite my own on the matter even today.  The video footage that was anonymously sent to the CBC in the midst of the Somalia Affair in the mid-90s, when the CAR's own hazing rituals were all over the news - that footage was taken from the TG I was apart of in '91. The ceremony was more brutal than Crossing the Line ceremony I have seen since - again, there were no women in 3 of the 4 ships in the TG at that time.
> 
> ERC recalls the situation from a different perspective than I do - an NDHQ perspective , but I believe is was VAdm Murray at the time who, when confronted with the accusation that Crossing the Line was simply just another hazing ritual that needed to be stopped immediately, properly responded that no, it was nothing like what was happening in the CAR and that it deserved to be a ceremony that remained part of the Navy experience. I really think, at that time, we came very close to losing the ability to perform this ceremony ever again.  The ceremony shouldn't be as pointlessly brutal and abusive as my first one, but I do agree that it is a valuable bonding experience, if executed correctly.



As I recall we did have to come get you during one crossing the line and you did struggle a bit. I believe I have a picture of that as well.


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## MARS (11 Jan 2019)

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> As I recall we did have to come get you during one crossing the line and you did struggle a bit. I believe I have a picture of that as well.



 ;D  Yeah, because I believed the bullshit from you and the Cox'n  that "yeah, the CO is always a tadpole, no matter how many times they've crossed the line".  Can't believe I fell for that.  Was much more fun the next year when I was King Neptune though...but yeah, you might recall that we had sailors on each trip who refused to participate. I had hoped they would reconsider after watching the ceremony, but we were also careful to ensure that they were in no way ostracised for not participating.


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## Journeyman (11 Jan 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Navy has some weird traditions.


In keeping with another thread where they're 'bragging' about constantly fighting fires aboard ship..... but can't understand personnel shortages.....   ;D


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## daftandbarmy (11 Jan 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Navy has some weird traditions.



They're submariners, not Navy


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## TCM621 (11 Jan 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Navy has some weird traditions.



The fact that are Australian was also a factor. I recently learned of another Australian tradition known as a Cracky which involved pouring beer down the crack of a man's ass and into someones mouth. Aussies have been known to be a little less..ahem.. polite than is normal in Canada.


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## Lumber (11 Jan 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Are the bathtub sailors really saying that they are shellbacks because they crossed the Arctic Circle? Pretentious buggers those least coasters are!



You take that back you training coast nancy!


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## FSTO (11 Jan 2019)

MARS said:
			
		

> My experience was in HMCS Saskatchewan in '91.  I was an OSBN. This was just prior to women being allowed to serve at sea in the RegF.  The 'threat' was sodomy with a marlin spike.  Nothing ever came of it, at least for me, except a lot of a sweating bullets for 7 days and a lot of relief on the 8th day when the Deck Department laughed at us newbies once we realized it wasn't actually going to happen.  But I didn't sleep at all on the 7th night. I just assumed that was the point - the fear factor - and hadn't actually seen or heard of the ritual since.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that a voluntary crossing the line ceremony is entirely appropriate.  My first one was not in any way voluntary but it did have the desired effect of bonding the crew together.  But there was bleeding and bruising...I was struck in the head with a sap - there were stiches after the ceremony - as were a bunch of other tadpoles.  I was personally no worse for wear from it, but I obviously still remember it viscerally, and I can easily imagine folks who were there who suffered more than I did and who would harbour feelings opposite my own on the matter even today.  The video footage that was anonymously sent to the CBC in the midst of the Somalia Affair in the mid-90s, when the CAR's own hazing rituals were all over the news - that footage was taken from the TG I was apart of in '91. The ceremony was more brutal than Crossing the Line ceremony I have seen since - again, there were no women in 3 of the 4 ships in the TG at that time.



I was in Qu'Appelle in 91 on MARS II and we heard the same thing about the 7th day at sea. We just laughed it off as empty threats.

As for the Crossing the Line Ceremony that got on CBC. Well I was the 2OOW in HMCS YUKON during the time of the video. We were on our way back to Canada from a trip to NZ/AUS. On the way down the Tadpoles outnumbered the Shellbacks by a large measure so the craziness of the bears was quite reduced. There was one particular bear who took quite the relish in harassing the Tadpoles. All in all it was an okay evolution but there was one young fella who hid so well we had to close up the bomb threat organization to find him!!!

On the way back is when things got a little out of hand. The previously mentioned bear was found out to have never crossed the equator before so he became the focus of the retribution. The Hull Techs made the "Blocks" and the unfortunate MS Bosn was placed in them and then he was the subject of much verbal abuse and the pouring of various amounts of food stuffs over his head. And no, none of it was vomit as breathlessly opined by Peter Mansbridge.
When the video surfaced the Navy got ahead of the story by having MARPAC (Snake Davidson I believe), YUKON's Coxn and the "victim" now a PO2 do a Q&A with the media and the entire story died a quick death.


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## FSTO (11 Jan 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> You take that back you training coast nancy!



Why don't you come west to a real ocean NATO Knee!!!


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## MARS (11 Jan 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I was in Qu'Appelle in 91 on MARS II and we heard the same thing about the 7th day at sea. We just laughed it off as empty threats.
> 
> As for the Crossing the Line Ceremony that got on CBC. Well I was the 2OOW in HMCS YUKON during the time of the video.



I was on watch in Provider at the time.  Heard about the blocks, and the poor fella (sea cadet?) who caused the Bomb Threat org to be closed up.  Im not suggesting that it was anything close to what the CBC was reporting on it, but I still think we have lost nothing by taming down that Ceremony and making it voluntary.  Heck, maybe it was voluntary back then...if so, that info was never shared with me and as an Ordinary Seaman, I doubt I would have felt comfortable 'not' participating in it.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Jan 2019)

I'm in a quandry:

As the 'new guy' on a week long patrol in Injun' country I once had to carry the sh*tbag out of the OP. They made me do it, well, more like a strong suggestion, because I was the new guy.

Should I go to the press, or just publish my story in German sheisse mags and make some money?


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## Lumber (11 Jan 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Why don't you come west to a real ocean NATO Knee!!!



It's not the size of the ocean, it's the motion in the... Err Uhh.. Ocean... Yea! Like you would know, Rimpac back!  ;D


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## FSTO (11 Jan 2019)

MARS said:
			
		

> I was on watch in Provider at the time.  Heard about the blocks, and the poor fella (sea cadet?) who caused the Bomb Threat org to be closed up.  Im not suggesting that it was anything close to what the CBC was reporting on it, but I still think we have lost nothing by taming down that Ceremony and making it voluntary.  Heck, maybe it was voluntary back then...if so, that info was never shared with me and as an Ordinary Seaman, I doubt I would have felt comfortable 'not' participating in it.



I was in KOOTENAY in 95 when we sailed to South America. The Crossing the line ceremony on that trip was really toned down compared to my previous experience.


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## Furniture (12 Jan 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> It's not the size of the ocean, it's the motion in the... Err Uhh.. Ocean... Yea! Like you would know, Rimpac back!  ;D



Having sailed both oceans, it really is about the size...

I guess 7 days at sea isn't a thing out on the least coast I suppose because they never spend that much time at sea. Guam is about 12 days from Pearl which is 5 days at best from Esquimalt. How far is London from Halifax?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (12 Jan 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> How far is London from Halifax?



Three weeks if you are escorting an Ocean Safari or Reforger convoy! And with only about 3 1/2 to 4 hours of sleep a day.

Oh, wait! You meant if you don't do anything on the way and steam straight like they do in the Yacht Club.  ;D

Go East, Go !!!


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## FSTO (12 Jan 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Three weeks if you are escorting an *Ocean Safari or Reforger *convoy! And with only about 3 1/2 to 4 hours of sleep a day.
> 
> Oh, wait! You meant if you don't do anything on the way and steam straight like they do in the Yacht Club.  ;D
> 
> Go East, Go !!!



I think you're showing your age OGBD! #cruelsea


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## Oldgateboatdriver (12 Jan 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I think you're showing your age OGBD! #cruelsea



That's my point.  ;D

But, what's old could be new again faster than you may think:

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-submarine-activity-increasing-around-uk-and-in-north-atlantic-2018-5


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## Cloud Cover (14 Jan 2019)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Is any "initiation" ritual considered "hazing"? We have a lot of initiation rituals in the Navy, but I wouldn't call them "hazing". Some are voluntary, some are not.
> 
> For example, "7 days at sea". When a sailor has been at sea for 7 straight days for the first time in their career, their wingers usually surprise them on watch with a pie to the face, or an raw eggs shampooing. Technically, you could call this textbook assault, but I've never heard anyone complain, and msot of the sailors I've seen come away smiling, I assume because the feeling of accomplishment (i.e. "I'm a real _sailor _now") and camaraderie.



In 86 it was meatballs and “spunk” (yogurt - I hope). 
Further down thread there is a note about Cracky. I can confirm this, I was on Adelaide at the time, there was a cross pol HT from Kootenay. Red headed LS with a beard. They chased him quite a bit, and when the deed was complete there was a banyan, 2 cracked beers each and the ships rock band performed a shockingly vulgarized version of Highway to Hell. Officers including XO present.


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## Old Sweat (14 Jan 2019)

Back in the bad old days we had a ceremony for young gunners on their TQ3 course. While under training they were referred to as privates and wore the CF cap badge. Finally the magic day arrived when each fired his or her first live round downrange. The CO and RSM appeared and proceeded down the ranks, congratulating them and addressing each as "Gunner." And for a finale, they lined up and tossed their cornflakes into the weeds, with "Ubique Quo Fas Et Gloria Ducunt" prominent on their berets and engrained in their psyches.


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## daftandbarmy (14 Jan 2019)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I resent  represent that microaggression.



There, FTFY


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