# No sign in until whmis done



## meni0n (16 Jan 2018)

A reserve unit's Adj decided that no member can sign in for pay until their WHMIS training is complete. That means that anyone that comes in for parade can't sign in until they compete the training on their own time? Is that even possible?

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rifleman62 (16 Jan 2018)

Adjt cannot do that. Soon troops will vote with feet and the CO will command SFA. WHMIS has nothing to do with pay. 

Is the ADJT giving the troops an ORDER saying you cannot sign in? If so, not a legal Order. Thus sign in and let the Adjt try and not process the sign -in sheets. Lots of Redresses, plus probably an Offence by the Adjt.

Is the Adjt full time?


----------



## meni0n (16 Jan 2018)

That's the email sent to everyone. Per adjs orders no member can sign in until they complete whmis training.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rifleman62 (16 Jan 2018)

What exactly is the Adjt saying? Please cut and paste.


----------



## dapaterson (16 Jan 2018)

I am certain there is nuance there.  If there is mandated training people refuse to complete, but want to do the "fun" things, there is some level of suasion needed.


----------



## meni0n (16 Jan 2018)

WHMIS is mandatory and probably not many people were able to compete it. I just paraphrased the email in my last post. I just don't understand how you can get people to do the training without signing in.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rifleman62 (16 Jan 2018)

Sounds to me. IMHO, that someone is going too far to get a check in the box for someone. I am not military lawyer, but my opinion, not a legal order.

Unless things have changed, WHMIS orientation training is to provided to all personnel in the unit.  Workplace specific WHMIS training is provided to all personnel working with or in proximity to hazardous materials 

WORKPLACE HAZARD AND MATERIALS/INFORMATION SYSTEM (WHMIS)

25.	Commanding Officers will ensure that that WHMIS is effectively implemented. In accordance with Ref C and E, all personnel who may come into contact with, handle, dispose of or use hazardous chemicals or materials will receive generic and workplace/trade specific WHMIS training. Workplace specific WHMIS training will be provided through on the job training or scheduled safety briefings. Initial WHMIS training is conducted on BMQ.  

26.	All ---- Units will ensure that material safety data sheets are held for each item of hazardous material within their organizations and that all hazardous material is properly labelled and controlled by a qualified unit rep.

C.  A-GG-040-003/AG-001 General Safety Program, General Safety Training Manual

E.  A-GG-040-004/AG-001 General Safety Program, Hazardous Materials Safety and Management Manual


----------



## runormal (17 Jan 2018)

From the view of a corporal in a reserve unit.

I really don't see what's so fucking difficult about doing training like this. You don't even need to do the training, you can challenge the test and it takes 5 minutes (much like GBA+). Then you get a half days pay  8). It's not like PLQ DL where it's actually 8 days of "training" (mindlessly clicking through power points) and doing various assignments. Not to mention that if you didn't disable the pop-up blocker you'd need to re-do a 300 page module :. 

We can argue the merits of said "training" and I fully agree that it is a waste of time. Much like most of the IBTS training, because guess what? Everyone who went on an OP redid all of the IBTS training at the Brigade level and/or with the unit that they are augmenting with :facepalm:. Likewise with the whole PDR/PER process, I have some troops who rarely show up and I have a keener. I can say that Cpl Bloggins needs to show up more (or consider releasing), but that does really accomplish? None of this stuff matters, because we will still send him on DP 2.0 or PLQ, because we desperately need Det Commanders and MCpl's. Obviously OPs pushes for the people who actually show up/are switched on, but if they aren't available then it goes down the merit list... 

I'm aware that I'm contradicting myself, but trying to "one up the adj" for something as stupid as this isn't going to win you any brownie points. Play the game, don't let the game play you.


----------



## jeffb (17 Jan 2018)

This seems sketchy if they way it is presented is accurate. What the Adjt might have said is that complete your WHIMIS training or you will be subjected to administrative or disciplinary action. If you have concerns following this order, or the legality of it, raise it with your CoC who will address it appropriately either through your sub-unit command to the CO or through the Sergeant Major net to the CO through the RSM. 

I could see an argument though that if you are not qualified on WHIMIS, you are not able to operate in a facility where hazardous materials are present (ie. an armoury) until you have completed the training. I'm not so sure that this is a manifestly unlawful order. Look at it from the reverse side, if the unit allowed you to attend work without requisite safety training that you have likely been afforded all kinds of time to complete, there is a liability on their side if you injure yourself and are not properly trained. 

Incidentally, Adjt is the short form of Adjutant (unit administration officer), whereas Adj is the short form for Adjudant (WO in French).


----------



## meni0n (17 Jan 2018)

To runormal, when the training is only offered once or twice and someone can't make it, then how fair is it to penalise them. This the reserves and people got other commitments to keep up. Getting someone to do training and not pay them is a big NO NO in the reserves, if I remember correctly. I am not trying to pull anything over the adjt and I could care less of any brownie points. I just got enough time in to know when something is not kosher. 

To jeffb, I'm not misinterpreting anything really, this is the email that was sent to everyone at the unit.

"As per the Adj’s orders, no  member may sign in for pay until their WHMIS training has been completed."


----------



## Remius (17 Jan 2018)

meni0n said:
			
		

> To runormal, when the training is only offered once or twice and someone can't make it, then how fair is it to penalise them. This the reserves and people got other commitments to keep up. Getting someone to do training and not pay them is a big NO NO in the reserves, if I remember correctly. I am not trying to pull anything over the adjt and I could care less of any brownie points. I just got enough time in to know when something is not kosher.
> 
> To jeffb, I'm not misinterpreting anything really, this is the email that was sent to everyone at the unit.
> 
> "As per the Adj’s orders, no  member may sign in for pay until their WHMIS training has been completed."




We received similar orders for things like the OP Honour. If I recall, everyone’s had to have whmis 2.0 completed by mid December.  You know that the whmis trainings can be done at home right?  Via the DLN?  If not ask your COC about it.    When OP Honour rolled out we had people that kept missing the training for months.  The brigade commander finally sent out a list with names on it and stated that none of those people were not to participate in training until it was done.


----------



## runormal (17 Jan 2018)

meni0n said:
			
		

> To runormal, when the training is only offered once or twice and someone can't make it, then how fair is it to penalise them. This the reserves and people got other commitments to keep up. Getting someone to do training and not pay them is a big NO NO in the reserves, if I remember correctly. I am not trying to pull anything over the adjt and I could care less of any brownie points. I just got enough time in to know when something is not kosher.



I've been in the reserves since 2011. I'm well aware that "life happens". What I'm surprised about, is how your unit conducted the training compared to ours. We are having a similar issue at our unit. We also want 100% completion at our unit. For us we were told just to do the course on DND learn and send the certificate up the COC. 

There were some access issues for DNDlearn for newer members who did not have a DNDLearn or DWAN account. As a result we had one in house session, but I know that we still have a few members who haven't done it.

It seems ridiculous in my opinion to make all members to attend in person training when it was all covered on basic . I'm not sure why your unit didn't take the DND Learn approach, because that's much easier.

Edit: We've also received similar orders at my unit. Essentially it was "until you do WHMIS we aren't employing you."


----------



## BDTyre (17 Jan 2018)

Interesting...I've never attended an OP Honour brief (due to other commitments) or been told I need to take WHIMIS training and my unit still employs me (in the RQ nonetheless) and even made me storesman on a BMQ.

I guess each unit is different...to be honest, I don't ever recall seeing a unit-wide email re: WHIMIS.


----------



## RCPalmer (17 Jan 2018)

runormal said:
			
		

> I've been in the reserves since 2011. I'm well aware that "life happens". What I'm surprised about, is how your unit conducted the training compared to ours. We are having a similar issue at our unit. We also want 100% completion at our unit. For us we were told just to do the course on DND learn and send the certificate up the COC.
> 
> There were some access issues for DNDlearn for newer members who did not have a DNDLearn or DWAN account. As a result we had one in house session, but I know that we still have a few members who haven't done it.
> 
> ...



Regardless of the merits of that direction, the CoC is entirely within their rights to make those kind of decisions.  The only exception to this I could think of would be something like a medical appointment or other essential administration that failing to attend to would cause undue hardship for the member.  In virtually every other case, the authority to train is at the discretion of the CoC based on their Op Plan and associated budget.  

As has been noted above, it would be an unlawful order to compel a member to perform a military duty while not on duty (ie signed in).  However, it would be entirely appropriate to issue an order to the effect of "If you have not completed WHMIS training, you will perform no other military duty before doing so.  BTW, your pay sheet can be found in the classroom/computer lab where the WHMIS trg is to be conducted".   

Administrative or disciplinary action aren't really practical means to compel compliance in bulk, and ultimately are for more serious matters.  If a soldier were to actively avoid that or any other training, I could see how it would be appropriate.  However, most of the time it is a much more subtle combination of members balancing their Army Reserve duties with everything else going on in their lives (which is completely understandable), and a natural human inclination to focus on the things they would rather do. 

As to the merits, it is a bit of a blunt instrument. I wouldn't recommend that approach as a routine way to get things done.  However, depending on the orders your CoC has received from its higher authorities and the relative priorities they have applied, it might be an appropriate tool to allow your unit to "check the box" and get on with its regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## FJAG (17 Jan 2018)

I have a problem with the concept of directing that a member shall not "sign in" until a certain activity has been completed.

QR&O 9.06 states that:



> 9.06 - CLASS "A" RESERVE SERVICE
> (1) A member of the Reserve Force is on Class "A" Reserve Service when the member is performing training or duty in circumstances other than those prescribed under articles 9.07 (Class "B" Reserve Service) and 9.08 (Class "C" Reserve Service).



I'm not sure what the current administrative direction is with respect to Reserve service but in my day it was NDHQ ADM Per 2/93 Administration of Class "A", Class "B" and Class "C" Reserve Service. I know this was changed to an ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction in 2002 but can't recall the number but do have a draft copy as we prepared it.

In any event. para 34 directed that:



> 34. The CF 895 is the source document for Class "A" Reserve Force Attendance that approves all individual Class "A" days of attendance for the Primary Reserve, Canadian Rangers and Cadet Instructors Cadre at Regional Headquarters (emphasis added)



and para 38 directed that:



> 38.  Class "A" Reserve Service for the Primary Reserve, and the Cadet Instructors Cadre at Regional Headquarters, shall be recorded on the CF 896. (emphasis added)



In other words, a CF 895 Attendance Register is not simply a document to get the individual Class "A" pay but is also the document that authorizes the attendance at training etc and records the service the individual provided. Accordingly  directing individuals not to "sign in" for service or training that they have been told to do is, IMHO, contrary to the regulations, orders and directions.

It is quite another thing to order an individual to stay away from training until such time as the WHMIS is done but that is also suspect in my mind and is probably counterproductive in the long run. Simply put, if this were my unit, any individual who showed up for regularly scheduled training who had not completed the mandatory course would be put in a computerized classroom or other facility where he could complete it.

One of our big leadership problems is that we tend to make things mandatory without providing the appropriate means or opportunity for completing the requirements. We, all too often, come up with cop out solutions like the one here.

 :cheers:


----------



## dapaterson (17 Jan 2018)

ADM(Per) 2/93 was replaced by ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 20/04, now CMP instruction 20/04 (having been through numerous amendments over the years).


----------



## Remius (17 Jan 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I have a problem with the concept of directing that a member shall not "sign in" until a certain activity has been completed.
> 
> QR&O 9.06 states that:
> 
> ...



FJAG, I'm going to provide two examples that happened in our brigade and that maybe the OP isn't giving us all of the facts (he might not actually have those).

OP Honour and Bystander training:  Orders came down in Fall of 2015 I believe that everyone would get this briefing.  Our unit had set up mandatory briefs every week for those that needed it.  In fact this went on for months to have people catch up.  Fast forward to winter 2017, the Brigade Commander gets a report that some units and in particular a good number of leadership types have yet to get their training/brief.  Order goes out from him that anyone on that list could not participate in any other training until this was complete they were also given a deadline date before this came into effect.  I know for a fact that some people were actively avoiding this training.  

WHMIS 2015.  All government departments were given a deadline to get this done by 2017.  Brigade safety officer sends out message that our deadline is approaching back in march of 2017 and that all units must get this done.  DLN link is provided.  Beginning November the brigade commander gets involved as units are not meeting their targets.  Some units like ours get troops DWAN accounts and gets their DLN running.  They get a half day's pay to do this.  due to the fickleness of this system an in house sessions were also set up prior to stand down to get this done for those that can't access the DLN.  To date I haven't seen any direction that troops can't train until this done.   

I agree that leadership may be/is an issue, but in a lot of cases many many opportunities are in fact provided.  At some point people need to be strong armed.  

The Op never provided the adjt's orders.  His copy says "As per the Adjt's orders"  sounds like something passed on by a section commander or a platoon commander that is missing some info. 

Another issue that deserves another thread is the over reliance of email to give half a**ed orders...


----------



## brihard (17 Jan 2018)

Someone at army level must have gotten a huge WHMIS boner. I’m in a totally different part of the army from the original poster, and in my unit the stated consequence was initial counseling for not not completing WHMIS.


----------



## BDTyre (17 Jan 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Someone at army level must have gotten a huge WHMIS boner. I’m in a totally different part of the army from the original poster, and in my unit the stated consequence was initial counseling for not not completing WHMIS.



When did this WHIMIS training come about? As I mentioned earlier, I recall nothing about WHIMIS through my unit. We have a fairly good comms network for the JRs via secret Facebook groups, plus an official unit FB group so any important info generally hits us two three times in addition to any emails passed on.


----------



## runormal (17 Jan 2018)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> When did this WHIMIS training come about? As I mentioned earlier, I recall nothing about WHIMIS through my unit. We have a fairly good comms network for the JRs via secret Facebook groups, plus an official unit FB group so any important info generally hits us two three times in addition to any emails passed on.



This training year was the first year that I really recall anyone "caring" (with the exception of basic). However YMMV


----------



## brihard (17 Jan 2018)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> When did this WHIMIS training come about? As I mentioned earlier, I recall nothing about WHIMIS through my unit. We have a fairly good comms network for the JRs via secret Facebook groups, plus an official unit FB group so any important info generally hits us two three times in addition to any emails passed on.



Frigged if I know. Some mouth breather somewhere must have drank tritium earlier this fiscal or something.


----------



## Zoomie (17 Jan 2018)

No WHMiS training here either - sounds like someone imposing their own standards?

How ever did we survive without that essential training?

Maybe this is coincidental without the “tide pod challenge” I keep hearing about?


----------



## NavyShooter (17 Jan 2018)

Having previously been the Senior HAZMAT cleanup instructor for the RCN there is some direction I can dig up on WHMIS 2015 when I get back to my desk tomorrow.

However, going from memory, there was a rollout cycle based on a 2 year set of periods.  2 years for this, 2 years for that, and by 2019, everything was to be in place and all legacy items would be up to date by that time.  Or so the theory went.

I had a very simple policy when units came out for HAZMAT Team Training.  They had to be 100% complete the WHMIS 2015 online module for all personnel attending.  Proof was simple...Monitor Mass Query for the MITE code associated, run against the crew list that were attending.

In my current job, I'm more concerned with things such as CTAT training.  Y'know, the Mandatory CTAT training (also through DLN) that every member of the CAF who comes in contact with CTAT equipment must have completed prior to 01 Jan 2013?  Yeah....I had a unit where I did an inspection last year that had 76/240 people who hadn't done the course.  Including CO/XO/COX'N.  That was....a finding....in the report.

So.

We have folks that haven't done mandatory training that's 5 years past due, and now we've got folks that are not doing mandatory training that's a few weeks past due (I think 01 Jan 18 was a deadline for some of it...I'll have to check at work again.)

Which should have greater priority?  

Unit Training?

Mandatory online courses? (CTAT, WHMIS, etc)

Mandatory briefings? (OPERATION HONOUR)

For the limited number of training days that troops have, particularly Reserve units, what is the answer?

For me in the training world, I'd send the ship a letter a month prior to the course through the School Cmdt with the expectations clearly laid out....and I'd RTU anyone who didn't have the MITE code.  (I also sent an e-copy of the letter to the Departmental Chief so that he could get a head-start on it.)

I wanted to train, but I also had standards that had to be held.  There was a balance...

How the PRes troops find that balance is a very interesting challenge.


----------



## expwor (17 Jan 2018)

Just a dumb question from a outsider (OK reservist many many decades ago) but first shouldn't the reserve unit be providing the WHMIS training?  Second if so how can a reservist take it if he/she can't sign in for parading. And I recall on my WHMIS training done when I was in the Correctional Service it took only a couple hours. So why doesn't the unit on an evening parade night use it for training and qualifying everyone on WHMIS (my memory of weekly parades it was 3 hours long 7pm-10pm) That's more than enough or should be to get one's WHMIS certificate. Mind you my reserve memories are from 1979-1981, I'm sure lots have changed
My 2 cents worth, likely not even worth that

Tom


----------



## Rifleman62 (17 Jan 2018)

Part of my post stated: ".....Workplace specific WHMIS training will be provided through on the job training or scheduled safety briefings. [size=12pt]Initial WHMIS training is conducted on BMQ. [/size] 

In our Bde we added WHMIS to BMQ trg syllabus even though at the time, Trg Standards in Edm ranted and raved. Saved a lot of problems years ago as a soldier, recruited, arrived at the unit WHMIS trained. Catching those in the unit then took some time to capture. Record in UER.


----------



## FJAG (17 Jan 2018)

Ditch said:
			
		

> No WHMiS training here either - sounds like someone imposing their own standards?
> . . .



DAOD 2007-1 - Responsibilities Table - CO - Bullet 3 sets out the overarching requirement. There are undoubtedly further instructions about implementation that detail how it is to be done (but I don't have access to those).

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-2000/2007-1.page

 :cheers:


----------



## dapaterson (17 Jan 2018)

DLN is accessible from the home - no need for a DWAN account.  

Indeed, I know some units that instructed soldiers to complete the course at home, and bring in a hard copy of their certificate to have a half day of pay authorized.


----------



## meni0n (17 Jan 2018)

I've been waiting a few months to fix DLN. You do need DWAN to put in tickets and then they would communicate only with your DWAN account for any issues or clarification.


----------



## meni0n (19 Jan 2018)

Latest is you won't get paid until you completed WHMIS and you won't get paid for the time you take to complete it.


----------



## ModlrMike (20 Jan 2018)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Latest is you won't get paid until you completed WHMIS and you won't get paid for the time you take to complete it.



That is a situation prohibited by regulations. You can not be forced to perform a duty without compensation. They can say you will only be permitted to sign in to complete WHMIS trg, but they can't make you do it on your own time.


----------



## angus555 (20 Jan 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> You can not be forced to perform a duty without compensation.



I wish that wisdom applied to civilian companies that pull that trick off routinely.


----------

