# Sick Leave ( merged )



## 7RCA (18 Jan 2009)

If you are in the reserves, how many sick days do you get??


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## George Wallace (18 Jan 2009)

None.

You do not get SICK DAYS in the CF.  A Class A Reservist gets no SICK DAYS.  A Class B or Class C Reservist on full time employment, and a Regular Force member, will get Sick Leave as required, from an authorized Medical practitioner in the CF.


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## 7RCA (18 Jan 2009)

so what your saying is that u cant call in sick in the reserves?


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## George Wallace (18 Jan 2009)

7RCA said:
			
		

> so what your saying is that u cant call in sick in the reserves?



YOU can call in sick, but you will not get paid for any days you miss as a Class A Reservist.  If you work full time, then you must get a Sick Chit from the Medical staff the next day.  There is no "Honour System" where you can freely take any time off you want.


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## PuckChaser (18 Jan 2009)

I don't have the reference handy, but I believe you can be authorized up to 2 days off in a row by your supervisor before you are ordered to the MIR to get checked out. This is completely the supervisors discretion, so if s/he thinks you're faking to get out of PT/work/etc, you'll be told to report. As George said, if you don't show up as a CL A reservist, you don't get paid.


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## PMedMoe (19 Jan 2009)

QR&O 16.16 states:

An officer or non-commissioned member may be granted sick leave not exceeding:

(a) two continuous calendar days by the member’s commanding officer without the recommendation of a medical officer;

But George is right, Class A personnel do not get paid for sick days.

Handy Leave References


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## helpup (19 Jan 2009)

And the troops are masters at abusing that one.  Especially on a Friday ( Shot's Thursday night )  Right now our policy is they will come in and not call in sick. We have even sent drivers out to pick them up.  But we can, have and will again follow the Canforgen. ( Once the troops get out of their minds that it is a entitlement.  Reserves as stated don't get paid unless they are on full time employment and then of course they have the same options.  The big one after those days off though that I am not a fan of outright is getting a sick chit after a day off.  Especially if it is something like a 24 hour flue that is pretty well over in a day the soldier has to get into the MIR line up and get a chit for his days off.


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## PMedMoe (19 Jan 2009)

At our unit, we have a call in sick form that the supervisor must fill out and send to the CO, through the Adjt.  I guess that way it gets tracked.  We are not required to go and get a sick chit after the fact.

Again, this policy is at the discretion of the CO.  If they feel people are abusing it, they are within their rights to make them come in.

Edit to add:  Maybe this should be moved to the Admin section.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Jan 2009)

Ahh, one thing I don't miss about the military, inherent stupidity.

"make them come in" or "they will come in and not call in sick"

I remember back when we had to come in no matter what, trying to drive while puking out the window without either skidding off the road, puking in my car, and/or letting too much snow in.......

I always said someday someone will fix this but I see stupid is forever.


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## dapaterson (19 Jan 2009)

"Stupid is forever" works on both sides of the ledger.  Everyone knows one or two people who always call in sick the day after they return from leave; I once had a PS employee who'd call in "sick" some mornings, forgetting that the phone at the office had call display - so I could note that they never called twice from the same number (different background voices every time were also suggestive).

As long as some folks abuse the system they make it hard on those who are legitimately sick.  And no, "hung over" is not grounds for a sick day.


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## Sig_Des (19 Jan 2009)

I think my favourite was a guy at LStL who put on his out of office the day before he called in sick.. ;D


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## Harley Sailor (19 Jan 2009)

I love the new sick days.  Getting short leave around here is like pulling teeth.  The boss and I can work out a sick day now a lot easier then a day's short leave.


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## helpup (19 Jan 2009)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Ahh, one thing I don't miss about the military, inherent stupidity.
> 
> "make them come in" or "they will come in and not call in sick"
> 
> ...



Agreed Bruce, and when it first came out I didn't have a problem with it. But where I am at it was getting rampant for those who were larking.  and on average a half dozen guys or more in a Coy were getting long weekends out of it ( and we are not bad at giving out short )
Once it settles down it will go back to the intent of the Can-forgen.  I too recall the days of no matter how sick or hurt making my way to the UMS, and I didn't agree with it then. ( still don't for that matter ) but since Malingering is a charge that is pretty well impossible to get done we had to find another route to put the brakes on.


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## Redeye (19 Jan 2009)

In case the OP is confused by all this - I'll sum it up.

As a Class A Reservist if you're sick and can't come in for training, which happens, your best option is to call your orderly room and let your immediate supervisor (ie your section commander, etc) know that you aren't coming in.  Technically you don't have to but it's in good taste to do so.  If you miss a night now and then it's no big deal.  If you're chronically not showing up, expect a one way conversation about attendance to follow, because you're taking up a line serial that could go to a potential applicant who wants to be there.

If you don't show up for whatever reason on Class A, you don't get paid.  There's no allotment of "sick days".



			
				7RCA said:
			
		

> so what your saying is that u cant call in sick in the reserves?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Jan 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Stupid is forever" works on both sides of the ledger.  Everyone knows one or two people who always call in sick the day after they return from leave; I once had a PS employee who'd call in "sick" some mornings, forgetting that the phone at the office had call display - so I could note that they never called twice from the same number (different background voices every time were also suggestive).
> 
> As long as some folks abuse the system they make it hard on those who are legitimately sick.  And no, "hung over" is not grounds for a sick day.



Of course I also don't have a problem with the 'duty supervisor' being sent to someone's home during the paid hours to *cough* see if the person in question requires anything.........


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## helpup (19 Jan 2009)

Oh we do that as well, not to mention those on bed rest being found out and about as they were not in their rooms.  At times I love having a devious mind and the troops after any length of time with me know it is better to be honest then try and pull anything.


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## PMedMoe (19 Jan 2009)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Of course I also don't have a problem with the 'duty supervisor' being sent to someone's home during the paid hours to *cough* see if the person in question requires anything.........



Well, they only have that person's welfare/well being in mind, right?


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## armyvern (19 Jan 2009)

Our "sick days" are tracked.

Policy is: "One can call in 'sick' on day 1 (but MUST "call-in" to a minimum rank Sergeant and actually SPEAK with them ... no voice mails on your own phone no one has access to [hey - it was tried by someone] or anyone else's phone).

Day Two: Still sick? _Must_ go to the MIR.

The Sgt (or above) reports the member as 'sick' and it is logged in. Monthly report goes to the CO the 1st of every month.




Note: It's especially lovely looking over the "Call-in Sick report" for the prior year and noting the ones who _*do*_ certainly call in sick 24 days a year ... eerily for as often as this one person gets "sick" - 22 times it occured on a Monday or a Friday; Once on a Thursday (which happened to be the Thursday before the Easter long weekend) and then once on a Tuesday - immediately following Monday's labour Day holiday.  : ... Then they were torqued when they were told they could no longer call-in sick "but you're not treating me like everyone else" ... "Well everyone else isn't abusing it are they?" 

It's the idiots like that Bruce who cause "stupidity" to occur for the pers who really are sick.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Jan 2009)

Yup, and its management's job to manage those pers.


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## armyvern (19 Jan 2009)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Yup, and its management's job to manage those pers.



Yep. That's why "X" isn't allowed to call in sick anymore.


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Jan 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yep. That's why "X" isn't allowed to call in sick anymore.



Not one of your troopies would s/he be?


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## CountDC (20 Jan 2009)

Here we can call in 2 days and it is tracked.  No need to use "stupidity" on everyone.  By tracking you quickly screen out who is abusing and place the restrictions on them. If they want to complain - too bad, you have the records to show what may be a pattern of abuse. Mind you we are all old farts and most are field and general officers.


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## helpup (20 Jan 2009)

I give it another month here before we go back to being able to call in.  In our case since we are the rear party for the deployed crew we wound up having allot of young soldiers and a very high amount of those who were deemed " trouble".  To nip the abuse in the bud we went for a total ban and even that took some time to get through some heads. Much the same for those assuming that Short Days are a entitlement. 

We do track but not to the level of the CO/OC it is kept at Pl level ( I do like the idea of forwarding it up to a central link but getting them to agree with it has not gotten any results yet) Part of my normal PDR briefs is also discussing the amount of Sick Chits, time off and short days taken. When someone has a inordinate amount of either compared to the average they tend to be counseled for it.  Especially since our Coy will be ramping up for 0110 in the next couple of months.  If they find it hard to stay healthy in garrison they are really not painting a healthy picture of themselves for people we want to deploy with.


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## armyvern (20 Jan 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> If they find it hard to stay healthy in garrison they are really not painting a healthy picture of themselves for people we want to deploy with.



Ain't that a fact.


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## angrypanda83 (25 Sep 2012)

Just a few questions for the folks on the board.

So I was reading the CF leave manual today, because I'm sicker than a dog. The policy of the squadron at the moment is that if you're sick, goto the MIR and get a chit... Makes sense... Follows the orders, and that's what the military is run on. 

But what if you've got kids to look after, no vehicle, or you can't make it? 

I'm a shift worker, and I'm on afternoons this week... As I was reading the leave manual it said that the CO can grant 2 days...

Now are these two days at his discretion or is it the responsibility of the sergeant to speak on his behalf? 

This has been an ongoing problem, especially with it being cold and flu season... I've seen guys working on the plane, drugged up on medication, because they're not able to get a day off to try and recuperate.  I also understand that people abuse the sick days, and take them on days when they're not sick... 

Really I'm hoping that a few Mcpls and Sgt's on this forum could help me understand this reasoning they have... It used to be, if you're sick, take a day off... If you're sick for more than one day, goto the MIR and get a chit, because you're a lot sicker than you realized, or you may need a few more days.

It sucks because my g/f works in the morning, and I don't feel like lugging my son into the MIR (who's also sick) and wait 3-4 hours to be seen, and only given an afternoon shift off...

Thanks for the input lads, I appreciate it.  

p.s And if anyone has some suggestions I could pass up my CoC it'd be appreciated. I'd like to get the ball rolling on this, because someone's going to get hurt... We work on 250 million dollar aircraft, and having a foggy mind could lead to some pretty serious repercussions. 

inb4 stop whining air force pansy.


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## ModlrMike (25 Sep 2012)

The two days "call in sick" has always been at the discretion of the unit CO. Some control it tightly requiring members to go to the MIR, some more loosely. Your unit seems to fall into the more tightly group. I suggest you go to the MIR today, and when you're back at work, inquire as to the formal policy. That way you won't have to face this dilemma again. You challenges outside the military have little to do with your requirement to report for duty.


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## Stoker (25 Sep 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The two days "call in sick" has always been at the discretion of the unit CO. Some control it tightly requiring members to go to the MIR, some more loosely. Your unit seems to fall into the more tightly group. I suggest you go to the MIR today, and when you're back at work, inquire as to the formal policy. That way you won't have to face this dilemma again. You challenges outside the military have little to do with your requirement to report for duty.



Interesting if one of my guys call in sick that's generally not a problem as I don't want guys around to spread their sickness about. If its more than one day or I suspect its something else I have them come in to MIR.

As a supervisor I would be more worried about forcing someone who is sick and heavily medicated to drive in and potentially getting in an accident.


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## DAA (25 Sep 2012)

angrypanda83 said:
			
		

> I also understand that people abuse the sick days, and take them on days when they're not sick...
> 
> p.s And if anyone has some suggestions I could pass up my CoC it'd be appreciated. I'd like to get the ball rolling on this, because someone's going to get hurt... We work on 250 million dollar aircraft, and having a foggy mind could lead to some pretty serious repercussions.



Hence, the reason why your CoC does not allow CF pers to "call in sick".

Nevertheless, here is an interesting read on the DWAN (it's an oldie) but worth it, as it provides a look at such situations from an ethical perspective as opposed to regulatory...

http://ethics.mil.ca/scenarios/2008/sick-maladie-eng.aspx


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## bridges (25 Sep 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> Hence, the reason why your CoC does not allow CF pers to "call in sick".
> 
> Nevertheless, here is an interesting read on the DWAN (it's an oldie) but worth it, as it provides a look at such situations from an ethical perspective as opposed to regulatory...
> 
> http://ethics.mil.ca/scenarios/2008/sick-maladie-eng.aspx



Thanks for that link, DAA.  Some good points in both reader responses.

Civ employees have a certain # of sick days per month - for my group it's 1.25 days/month or 15 days/year.  (Not counting injury/illness due to work - that's different.)  After that, you can advance up to another 25 days from future years' allotments, but then it starts getting into disability or incapacity and is handled differently.

We can call in sick, and register it afterwards as "Sick-Uncertified".  If it's certified by a doctor, on the other hand, and you were on vacation at the time, you can get that time added back to your vacation allotment.

Why I mention all this is that the limited availability of "sick time" is also a cap, of sorts, on potential abuse.   I've taken nowhere near my 15 days/year - more like 3 or 4, due to colds - but I'm glad I can save those days in case something serious happens later on.  

In the CF, after my first five years, my jobs were all static and I was able to call in sick without going to the MIR (once that policy came into place), but it depends on the unit.  Because there's no such "cap" in the CF, I wonder at what point a CF member's "uncertified" sick days in 1s & 2s would add up to a number indicating a possible medical problem?  


(Edit:  missed a word)


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## Occam (25 Sep 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> Hence, the reason why your CoC does not allow CF pers to "call in sick".



Hence what reason why?

Because some people abuse it?  That's a piss-poor excuse for punishing the masses.

QR&O 16.16 was changed years ago to permit personnel to call in to obtain their supervisor's approval for up to two consecutive days of sick leave, as delegated by the CO.  Of course COs can choose not to delegate, but this completely defeats the intent of the change, which was to prevent people who were suffering from colds, stomach bugs, or other minor but irritating ailments from coming in and making the MIR a big petri dish.

If Pte Bloggins' supervisor notes that he's called in sick 6 times in a month, then there's reason for Bloggins' supervisor to direct Bloggins to go see the MIR.  I have never understood why some units make it difficult for people because of the few who abuse the policy.


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## Pat in Halifax (25 Sep 2012)

Occam, I don't think it is as wide spread as might be implied in earlier posts but you know it will happen-human nature.  I agree with someone else though. As a supervisor, it is your responsibility...your obligation to direct your young fella to Sick Parade if this becomes chronic. This is an advantage we have over some employers. My wife's work has someone who phones in atleast once a week and when her supervisor attempted to direct her to her Dr because she was 'concerned', the boss was slapped on the hand by the employee's union for 'singling out' an employee with a 'personal vendeta'. I almost s*** when my wife told me this and it was also when I realized that I wouldn't fit in very well in a union workplace!
(Sorry for wandering there!)


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## OldSolduer (25 Sep 2012)

As an RSM, I don't like the idea of "calling in" sick. It does leave room for abuse....HOWEVER....

If we instill a sense of responsibility and accountability into our soldiers, and specifically in this case towards "calling in sick" and abusing it is wrong, and if we find out you're golfing while "out sick" you will be held accountable.

My civvy side job is a union job where we can call in sick. It is horribly abused....and I am understating that.


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## DAA (25 Sep 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> QR&O 16.16 was changed years ago to permit personnel to call in to obtain their supervisor's approval for up to two consecutive days of sick leave, as delegated by the CO.



I don't see anywhere in the QR&O that permits anyone to call in for anything.........

Bottom line, you have no rights what so ever to "call in" for anything, it's that simple.  Just like you cannot "call in" and say "I am taking Annual Leave today", can you, can you call in and tell your Supr that your taking leave today???   What happened here, was the authorization for "Sick Leave", on a limited basis (ie' 2 days per month) was "delegated" to Commanding Officers in an attempt to cut down on the workload of the local Base/Wing Hospital Staff in having to deal with relatively simple non-complicated medical issues (ie; colds and flu's).  The CF Leave Manual affords CO's that option, how they want to implement it, is there choice.

I am entitled to Annual Leave every year but yet, when I submit a leave pass, my CO can choose whether or not to "approve" it.  And I believe in most cases, Base/Wing/Unit Standing Orders say that you need to submit your request anywhere between 7 and 14 working/calendar days in advance.

Personal experience.........I have always let my staff call in sick, with reason.  In one case, I had an individual who did call in sick, exacty 2 days every month.  On the forth month when he called in, I told him to go the the MIR and that his "privilege" to call in was no longer available.  I was NOT about to penalize an entire section for the actions of an individual in a case like this, that's just silly.

PS - and leaving a "voice message" doesn't count!!!  The individual must talk to someone in a position of authority, within his/her CoC!!!  So calling the Pte at work to say your sick, doesn't quite cut it....


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## Occam (25 Sep 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Occam, I don't think it is as wide spread as might be implied in earlier posts but you know it will happen-human nature.  I agree with someone else though. As a supervisor, it is your responsibility...your obligation to direct your young fella to Sick Parade if this becomes chronic. This is an advantage we have over some employers. My wife's work has someone who phones in atleast once a week and when her supervisor attempted to direct her to her Dr because she was 'concerned', the boss was slapped on the hand by the employee's union for 'singling out' an employee with a 'personal vendeta'. I almost s*** when my wife told me this and it was also when I realized that I wouldn't fit in very well in a union workplace!
> (Sorry for wandering there!)



I agree, it's not a widespread problem...but I have seen at least a few units that follow this policy, and it's unnecessary in my opinion.  If the supervisors are doing their jobs, there should be no need to force everyone to drag their barking cough or explosive diarrhea into the MIR because most people can successfully diagnose a common cold or stomach bug without the aid of a medical degree.

As for your wife's workplace, once a week seems excessive.  My own union's collective agreement says that "Unless otherwise informed by the Employer", a statement from the employee that they were unable to perform their duties due to illness is sufficient to meet the requirements for sick leave.  I would think that after a few months of once-per-week absences, the employer would be within their rights to ask you to start producing medical certificates.


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## dapaterson (25 Sep 2012)

In any organization there are people who play the system, and mess things up for others.  In my time, I have seen:

* Folks who call in sick the day before and the day after annual leave;

* People who call in sick, forgetting about call display, so you can see that each time it's from the home of their previous evening's romantic conquest (and a different number each time);

* People nearing retirement in the public service who, in their last year, find a string of minor ailments to burn of the last of their sick leave before retirement;

* People posting on Facebook about how they're planning to take the next day off as sick leave so they can run errands, forgetting that they are friends with their boss;

* and many others.


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## Pat in Halifax (26 Sep 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> * People posting on Facebook about how they're planning to take the next day off as sick leave so they can run errands, forgetting that they are friends with their boss;



I have had the 'priveledge' of catching someone in this one-mild satsifaction but the guy kept doing it and just stopped posting it. I actually went to a fella's apartment once and found him and a bunch of freinds having a couple wets. AJAG didn't want to touch it because I violated 'the employee's rights' by showing up at their apartment to see if they were 'really sick' (I didn't hide the fact that was my reason for going over). Unfortunately, this clown is still around doing joe-jobs and keeping supervisors busy (The incident I mentioned was in 2005)


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## dimsum (26 Sep 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I have had the 'priveledge' of catching someone in this one-mild satsifaction but the guy kept doing it and just stopped posting it. I actually went to a fella's apartment once and found him and a bunch of freinds having a couple wets. AJAG didn't want to touch it because I violated 'the employee's rights' by showing up at their apartment to see if they were 'really sick' (I didn't hide the fact that was my reason for going over). Unfortunately, this clown is still around doing joe-jobs and keeping supervisors busy (The incident I mentioned was in 2005)



(Not sarcastic) 

How does that situation violate anyone's employee's rights?  If you genuinely thought that he was really sick, wouldn't it fall under "being a good supervisor" to see how he's doing?


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## Staff Weenie (26 Sep 2012)

I gather that studies have shown that people coming to work sick and infecting other staff members cost corporations more than those few who abuse sick days.  In that case, it is better to advocate that the CoC apply the two days call-in sick lve where logical.

My former CO delegated to me the authority to grant the two days to the staff. One person chronically abused it - I tracked every sick day in Monitor Mass, and the patterns were very evident.  I talked to the B Surg about what could be done, as the complaints were nonspecific ('headache', 'flu', 'back pain') - the answer was 'not much - if he comes in with complaints that cannot be easily discounted'. In the end, the only way we found to curb the abuse, was to tell the member to go to the clinic every time he was sick, and due to his obvious medical issues we were very concerned for his health and safety, and we wanted him to book a Part I & II Medical to determine if a TCat or PCat was required. The abuse vanished after that.


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## DAA (26 Sep 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> (Not sarcastic)
> 
> How does that situation violate anyone's employee's rights?  If you genuinely thought that he was really sick, wouldn't it fall under "being a good supervisor" to see how he's doing?



I had a similar experience and while you think you are doing good by looking out for the welfare of your troops, it can be considered as harassment of some form.  :-(


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## The Bread Guy (26 Sep 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> I had a similar experience and while you think you are doing good by looking out for the welfare of your troops, it can be considered as harassment of some form.  :-(


Would it have anything to do with going to a privately-rented "apartment", as opposed to checking the shacks?


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## DAA (26 Sep 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Would it have anything to do with going to a privately-rented "apartment", as opposed to checking the shacks?



Actually, the guy called in sick one day.  Then one of my MCpl's tells me he got a phone call and knows where Cpl X is.  I said, "he's at home sick".  The MCpl said "No, he is over at the Base sports field, drinking beer and watching the softball regionals".  So he went over to confirm the report but never confronted him, just came back to office and said, he's there alright.  Never had so many bite marks from higher ups on my behind in my life.....

In the end, I was told to NEVER do that one again.  Mind you, Cpl X was never allowed to call in sick again either.  But things went from bad to worse as he dropped off a sick chit the very next morning and guess where he went afterwards?  Yup, right back to the sports field.

So I informed my CoC of what had been reported to me.  They contacted the B Hosp/MO and then THEY ended up with bite marks on their behind.....LOL   Excused duty means just that and the member can pretty much do what they want.....  In-Credi-Bulllllllllll.......


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## The Bread Guy (26 Sep 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> Actually, the guy called in sick one day.  Then one of my MCpl's tells me he got a phone call and knows where Cpl X is.  I said, "he's at home sick".  The MCpl said "No, he is over at the Base sports field, drinking beer and watching the softball regionals".  So he went over to confirm the report but never confronted him, just came back to office and said, he's there alright.  Never had so many bite marks from higher ups on my behind in my life.....
> 
> In the end, I was told to NEVER do that one again.  Mind you, Cpl X was never allowed to call in sick again either.  But things went from bad to worse as he dropped off a sick chit the very next morning and guess where he went afterwards?  Yup, right back to the sports field.
> 
> So I informed my CoC of what had been reported to me.  They contacted the B Hosp/MO and then THEY ended up with bite marks on their behind.....LOL   Excused duty means just that and the member can pretty much do what they want.....  In-Credi-Bulllllllllll.......


That's sad ....


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## Haggis (26 Sep 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> Actually, the guy called in sick one day.  Then one of my MCpl's tells me he got a phone call and knows where Cpl X is.  I said, "he's at home sick".  The MCpl said "No, he is over at the Base sports field, drinking beer and watching the softball regionals".  So he went over to confirm the report but never confronted him, just came back to office and said, he's there alright.  Never had so many bite marks from higher ups on my behind in my life.....
> 
> In the end, I was told to NEVER do that one again.  Mind you, Cpl X was never allowed to call in sick again either.  But things went from bad to worse as he dropped off a sick chit the very next morning and guess where he went afterwards?  Yup, right back to the sports field.
> 
> So I informed my CoC of what had been reported to me.  They contacted the B Hosp/MO and then THEY ended up with bite marks on their behind.....LOL   Excused duty means just that and the member can pretty much do what they want.....  In-Credi-Bulllllllllll.......



Perhaps it's time to dust of QR&O 103.31:

103.31 – MALINGERING OR MAIMING
  
(1) Section 98 of the National Defence Act provides:
  
  "98. Every person who
  
  (a) malingers or feigns or produces disease or infirmity,
  
  (b) aggravates, or delays the cure of, disease or infirmity by misconduct or wilful disobedience of orders, or

   (c) wilfully mains or injures himself or any other person who is a member of any of Her Majesty’s Forces or of any forces cooperating therewith, whether at the instance of that person or not, with intent thereby to render himself or that other person unfit for service, or causes himself to be maimed or injured by any person with intent thereby to render himself unfit for service,
      
  is guilty of an offence and on conviction, if he commits the offence on active service or when under orders for active service or in respect of a person on active service or under orders for active service, is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment and, in any other case, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to less punishment."


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## Stoker (26 Sep 2012)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Perhaps it's time to dust of QR&O 103.31:
> 
> 103.31 – MALINGERING OR MAIMING
> 
> ...



Good in principal, however trying prove and more importantly get AJAG to sign off on that charge is very hard thing to do.


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## Haggis (26 Sep 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Good in principal, however trying prove and more importantly get AJAG to sign off on that charge is very hard thing to do.



True, but in extreme cases of abuse (such as what DAA describes) it could be worth the effort.  Given those circumstances, I'd attempt it.


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## medicineman (26 Sep 2012)

I had a patient of mine get an arse reaming from his MWO via my Sgt one day after I gave him a day of excused duty for something, then promptly ran into him while I was doing a supply run in town...looking much less sick than previously and with a large Timmy's in hand.  I also refused to see the man again unless he came in with a traumatic amputation or cardiac arrest - others also took that up as well (it's called firing a patient - all above board and legal, since we couldn't trust him because of this and previous history).  Fact is, unless the person is given a chit of Sick in Quarters - bathroom and meal privileges only (used to do that with school students or RMC cadets to keep folks from bothering them for inspections but also to nip some weekend malingering in the bud), "Excused Duty" means just that...now as a supervisor, if you have someone setting a pattern of shyte like this, you can embugger them by insisting that they go to the MIR...a friendly chat with whoever the supervisor there is may have them stay a little longer than they should (triage level permitting of course) and likely a return to duty depending on what's wrong.  A pattern may also be a justification for administrative vs discplinary action as well - IC/RW etc - especially if there are witnesses to the incidents in question.  I know that alot of people haven't got the stomach to initiate a charge of malingering, but the admin action might stick.  

I used to get more abuse from patients when I wouldn't give them a day off for something that wouldn't keep me from going to work than I can shake a stick at - learned the hard way from dealing with people with acute or chronic snivellitis...and their bosses.

MM


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## Tank Troll (26 Sep 2012)

Two instances where some one called in sick when I was posted to Edmonton and was the acting Admin Sgt for the Sqn one of the young guys called in sick on Thursday morning he lived in the shack and had flue symptoms and it was going around so I told him to stay home. I went over latter that day checked on him and he was indeed sick.  The next day he phone with the same problem I almost let it go but I had other thoughts and said to go in and get checked as the MIR was just down the street. He complained that it wasn't that bad and that he really didn't want to go wait there just to get some meds I insisted and told him I would drive him if necessary. As it turned out I had stuff to do so I sent one of the other guys to do it.  He went over picked him up and took him to the MIR. It was a good thing as it turned out he had Meningitis and if he hadn't gone to the MIR he probable would have died on the weekend as it a three day one. So after that I never let any one call in sick if they couldn't get them selves in then I would send some one or I would get them my self. About 3 months after that one of the guys called and complained about having a pain in his stomach and right side. He thought he just over did it at the gym and wanted to just stay on the couch as it hurt to sit up for any legnth of time. He also told me he hadn't been feeling all that well for the lats couple of days. Thinking back to the last guy I had sick I told I would come and get him I brought him in to the MIR again good thing he had appendicitis and they were ready tro burst. So yeah as an  A/RSM I always tell my guys to go to the MIR or there personal doctors if they aren't feeling well.


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## Cadwr (28 Sep 2012)

Granting of up to 2 days sick leave is command decision, under the authority of the CO, which said CO may or may not choose to delegate to a level of their choosing.  The CO should define and promulgate this choice and the mechanism by which sick leave is to be granted within their unit.  It is very, very common for this to be delegated in such a manner that for most members, approval form their direct supervisor is often sufficient.  This happens both by design, and as often, by indulgence.

That said, the tracking and administration of this sick leave is a command _responsibility_, and one that is very important.  

I would caution supervisors: Don't be too quick to associate what you perceive as "abuse" of sick leave with malingering, laziness, conjunctive slack'n'idleness, or what have you.  (Yes, it happens - but it should never be the default assumption.) Keep track, watch for abuse, but also watch for patterns.  Always sick the monday after payday?  Always sick the day after they drop off their kids?  Always sick on the third Wednesday of the month?  Many is the person who has used one too many days of sick leave as a temporary (and ineffective) means of coping with alcoholism (theirs or someone elses gambling, family problems, depression, abuse, etc.  So keep records, and pass those records on to your successors.  And please, never think you are doing a subordinate a favour by "looking the other way"; the consequences of failing to address the myriad problems that manifest themselves in absenteeism can be catastrophically greater than tackling a problem head on.

/lecture off


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## DAA (28 Sep 2012)

Cadwr said:
			
		

> So keep records, and pass those records on to your successors.  /lecture off



There should be little if any requirement to keep a record on this.  If someone calls in sick and is given the day off by their supr (because such authority is delegated to them), then it is done under the "authority of the unit CO".  A CF 100 (Leave Pass) must be done (and NOT through Monitor Mass), and signed by the "CO" (or delegated authority) as authorizing the sick leave and then sent to your supporting Orderly Room to be processed through HRMS (PeopleSoft).

This is the way it is suppose to be tracked........not in someone's note book, nor Div Note, nor anything other means.

There was a message that came out sometime ago addressing this issue and the fact that it wasn't being tracked/recorded appropriately....

Point to ponder for supervisors.........  A subordinate calls in sick and you give them the day off.  Something unmentionable happens to them that day.  The first question will be "Why were they not at work?", followed by "Where is the leave pass for Sick Leave and who authorized this"?   <-----  Not a position that I would want to be in!


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## Jarnhamar (28 Sep 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> Point to ponder for supervisors.........  A subordinate calls in sick and you give them the day off.  Something unmentionable happens to them that day.  The first question will be "Why were they not at work?", followed by "Where is the leave pass for Sick Leave and who authorized this"?   <-----  Not a position that I would want to be in!



Filling out a paper leave pass signed by the OC for private spears who called in sick that day with the shits just isn't practical.
We go on weekend leave to the local area without leave passes- does your example come into play there too?


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## DAA (28 Sep 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Filling out a paper leave pass signed by the OC for private spears who called in sick that day with the shits just isn't practical.
> We go on weekend leave to the local area without leave passes- does your example come into play there too?



As a matter of fact it does....especially when you leave the geographical area of your unit.  Have a look at the CF Leave Manual and it specifically addresses the issue you so kindly pointed out above regarding weekend leave.  I don't have the regulationa handy but it goes something like this "the requirement for a leave pass for weekend travel outside the geographical area is as directed by section/unit/base orders as published".

Weekend leave passes, where applicable, may not be enforced or followed and the same goes for sick leave, until the time comes and then as they say "you got some explaining to do".


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## Jarnhamar (28 Sep 2012)

Let me rephrase.

You're saying if a member calls in sick then his or her chain of command should fill out a paper leave pass for the day in case something happens to the person while they are at home.

What if

1. A members child is sick and they leave work in order to go pick up the kid at school and something bad happens- should the member have a leave pass for this?
2. Someone volunteers to work over a weekend so they are told to take Monday off for compensation. Again should this be entered into people soft?  

(No sarcasm).


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## Towards_the_gap (29 Sep 2012)

And further to that, what would happen if they didn't have a leave pass? AWOL charge? Subtract a days pay? The individual on said leave simply blinks out of existence?

I'm finding more and more that alot of these arcane rules and regs are so convoluted from the original intent as to be essentially a process for the sake of a process, not actually serving a purpose, like having 2 superiors sign, and have the ROR stamp and photocopy, a leave pass so Cpl Bloggins can have a sick day.


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## Shamrock (29 Sep 2012)

To answer #2, it's simply that CTO days are not authorized. These are issued by COs in the form of short for those sort of circumstances. By the law of the land, the worked weekend is simply a hazard of the military, and for that factor we get compensated by an additional 15% in our pay. 

#1, I can't give a reliable answer. I imagine the company line, consistent with above would be take an annual day.


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## Towards_the_gap (29 Sep 2012)

But my point is: Cpl Bloggins works a weekend, I tell him 'take monday off', and don't bother to fill out a leave pass. He trips on a flight of stairs, in the shacks, on Monday, breaks a leg. What on earth happens now that he does not have a leave pass? Are the MP's waiting bedside? Does a Board of Inquiry convene consisting of 3 Col's, 4 Maj and a Lt, who's sole purpose is to determine the whereabouts of Cpl Bloggins and why he was inadequately supervised descending a flight of stairs? Do the Doctors get a credit check from him before he leaves the hospital to ensure he has the ability to pay? 

Seriously...What? 

In 11 years service I've never heard, in real life, of a person getting in trouble for not having a leave pass (apart fromt the obvious AWOL's) and having something happen.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Sep 2012)

I can confirm that DAA is exactly right.  If you give someone a day off, because they call in sick, a leave pass must be filled out as soon as practicable and entered into HRMS.

Equally, if one of your troops one back from the MIR and presents a chit saying he has two days bed rest, a sick leave must be generated by the unit (as leave- all leave- is a CoC responsibility to authorize) and entered into HRMS.

The CO of the Health Services unit providing support to my unit recently briefed the amount of days "recommended" as excused duty in a particular location vs the amount of days actually entered in HRMS.  It was pretty obvious that many units were not in any way keeping tabs on their people.


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## Shamrock (29 Sep 2012)

Let me try another approach: from where do you derive the authority to issue a CTO or buckshee day?

Time off is just another human resource which must be properly administered and tracked. We have several references I encourage you to review to better inform you of policy.


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## Occam (29 Sep 2012)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Equally, if one of your troops one back from the MIR and presents a chit saying he has two days bed rest, a sick leave must be generated by the unit (as leave- all leave- is a CoC responsibility to authorize) and entered into HRMS.



Unless something has changed, the unit only does the administration on sick leave up to and including the two days that can be granted by the CO.  If I remember correctly, when I was given two weeks sick leave a few years ago, the orderly room at the hospital completed the CF 100 and the MO signed off on it.


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## Strike (29 Sep 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Unless something has changed, the unit only does the administration on sick leave up to and including the two days that can be granted by the CO.  If I remember correctly, when I was given two weeks sick leave a few years ago, the orderly room at the hospital completed the CF 100 and the MO signed off on it.



Actually, the new system seems to be to state on a printed sick chit that the member has so many days of sick leave.  At least, that's how mine has been handled, which was just given to me only a couple of days ago for what could be considered an extended period.  There is no leave pass filled out or anything.


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## Occam (29 Sep 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Let me try another approach: from where do you derive the authority to issue a CTO or buckshee day?
> 
> Time off is just another human resource which must be properly administered and tracked. We have several references I encourage you to review to better inform you of policy.



Well, if this thread is any indication, there is no such thing as CTO.  If Bloggins has to work on a day which is "normally" a day off, then I think the legal and proper (however cumbersome) way to compensate them for it is Short leave, through the CO.  I don't think I ever saw that done once in my 26 years, though...


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## Occam (29 Sep 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Actually, the new system seems to be to state on a printed sick chit that the member has so many days of sick leave.  At least, that's how mine has been handled, which was just given to me only a couple of days ago for what could be considered an extended period.  There is no leave pass filled out or anything.



Is that the new, all-singing, all-dancing MEL form that gets done on every visit to sick parade?  I only saw it a few times before I released last year.  My only stint of extended sick leave predated that form, if it's the one I'm thinking of.


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## Shamrock (29 Sep 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Well, if this thread is any indication, there is no such thing as CTO.  If Bloggins has to work on a day which is "normally" a day off, then I think the legal and proper (however cumbersome) way to compensate them for it is Short leave, through the CO.  I don't think I ever saw that done once in my 26 years, though...



And there's the rub. The correct method vs the convenient method. We aggressively track our civilians, yet are quite cavalier with our soldiers - because the leave pass itself is considered cumbersome and the leave manual arcane. 

It's a risk commanders assume. Give a dude a day off. If something happens, deal with it when it becomes a problem.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Sep 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Unless something has changed, the unit only does the administration on sick leave up to and including the two days that can be granted by the CO.  If I remember correctly, when I was given two weeks sick leave a few years ago, the orderly room at the hospital completed the CF 100 and the MO signed off on it.



The short answer is: medical personnel should not be signing  leave passes for anyone not in their own CoC.  They can obviously put down whatever number of days they think is useful for treatment puposes on a med chit,  but it s up to he unit to issue the leave pass.  A supervisor, when he sees a med chit for a bunch of days of excused duty is within their rights to call the MIR and discuss the issue, within the limits of medical confidentiality.  Think about it this way: what part of the the NDA confers a medical professional the power to issue leave for someone not in their own unit? It is up to the unit to issue the leave recommended by the MIR.


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## Occam (29 Sep 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> We aggressively track our civilians



We may be aggressively tracked, but we also have an excellent self-service leave application.  I love being able to fill out my sick/vacation/family-related leave requests with a few mouse clicks.  I'm sure my boss loves that he can approve them just as quickly and easily.  It's a shame that the CF can't adopt something that efficient.


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## Shamrock (29 Sep 2012)

Yes, there is considerable advantage to the all online system. However, not too handy in a computer austere environment - almost to the point where we'd make computer and Internet access a requirement of service. 

There remains value in the archaic pen and paper system we espouse for our administrative system.


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## Ludoc (29 Sep 2012)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> The short answer is: medical personnel should not be signing  leave passes for anyone not in their own CoC.  They can obviously put down whatever number of days they think is useful for treatment puposes on a med chit,  but it s up to he unit to issue the leave pass.  A supervisor, when he sees a med chit for a bunch of days of excused duty is within their rights to call the MIR and discuss the issue, within the limits of medical confidentiality.  Think about it this way: what part of the the NDA confers a medical professional the power to issue leave for someone not in their own unit? It is up to the unit to issue the leave recommended by the MIR.



From the QR&Os:

16.16 - SICK LEAVE

An officer or non-commissioned member may be granted sick leave not exceeding:

    two continuous calendar days by the member's commanding officer without the recommendation of a medical officer;
    30 continuous calendar days, not including any sick leave granted under subparagraph (a), by a medical officer, or a civilian medical doctor designated by the senior medical officer of a base;
    91 continuous calendar days, including any sick leave granted under subparagraphs (a) and (b), by the senior medical officer of a formation; or
    183 continuous calendar days, including any sick leave granted under subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c), by the Surgeon General or a medical officer designated by the Surgeon General.


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## Strike (29 Sep 2012)

Ludoc said:
			
		

> From the QR&Os:
> 
> 16.16 - SICK LEAVE
> 
> ...



And what does it say about filling out a leave pass?  Does the CF leave manual say anything?  I am sans DWAN for the next year.

Not that I care of course.  My CoC is well aware that I'm on sick leave and why and I have a chit.  I just figure someone is going to ask if the regs say anything about a leave pass.


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## Occam (29 Sep 2012)

CF Leave Manual is available at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.asp

It does say:

_Section 2.1 Leave Request/Authorization Form
2.1.01 CF 100

Leave authorizations are documented on form CF100, Canadian Forces Leave Request/Authorization. *This form is the source record for recording leave into the Human Resource Management (HRMS), HR application.*
2.1.02 Leave transactions

All leave transactions listed below are designated for control and shall be recorded in the HRMS leave module:

    Amendments to leave;
    Annual leave transactions;
    Cancellation of leave;
    Cash out of leave;
    Compassionate Leave;
    Expenditures against accumulated and accrued leave;
    Leave Without Pay;
    Period of Limitation of Payments;
    Rehabilitation leave;
    Short Leave;
*    Sick Leave*; and
    Special Leave (all applications).
_

So, by the letter of the "CF Leave Manual" law, even the newfangled form that the MIR is using should be accompanied by a CF 100 when sick leave is authorized beyond what the CO can grant.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Sep 2012)

I'm going to eat crow about the leave authority.  Good links.

However, I will still contend that it is not up to the MIR to create and issue a CF 100 leave form and enter the info into HRMS- only the unit can or should do that, if only to prove that the unit has dragged on board the information provided by the medical authority.


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## 392 (29 Sep 2012)

Here is Gagetown, the MIR creates and signs the leave pass, and then forwards it to the applicable unit's Adj - at least that's what happened this year when two of my NCOs went in to get snipped and were given sick leave for the first couple days. Could be different elsewhere?


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## SupersonicMax (29 Sep 2012)

As far as CTOs go....

CF Leave Manual



> 1.1.18 Shift worker
> 
> A shift worker is a person who does not necessarily have a working day schedule of Monday to Friday with Saturday, Sunday and designated and/or statutory holidays scheduled as non-working days.
> 
> For a shift worker, weekend time off is the scheduled non-working days, regardless of the day of the week on which they are scheduled, and working days are the days in a week scheduled for work, regardless of the days of the week on which they are scheduled.



Yes, if you are someone that doesn't have a regular schedule, you are entitled to CTOs on any day of the week when you work on week ends and you do not need a leave pass or "special leave" from the CO to do so...


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## dapaterson (29 Sep 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> And there's the rub. The correct method vs the convenient method. We aggressively track our civilians, yet are quite cavalier with our soldiers - because the leave pass itself is considered cumbersome and the leave manual arcane.
> 
> It's a risk commanders assume. Give a dude a day off. If something happens, deal with it when it becomes a problem.



It's more than that - at higher levels, it prevents commanders from getting a decent picture.  Information entered into systems isn't just about individual records; it's about information visibility.



			
				Shamrock said:
			
		

> Yes, there is considerable advantage to the all online system. However, not too handy in a computer austere environment - almost to the point where we'd make computer and Internet access a requirement of service.
> 
> There remains value in the archaic pen and paper system we espouse for our administrative system.



I can't think of any routine garrison situations - where sick leave would be the largest issue - that lacks decent computer access.  And a well-designed system will permit batch uploads of information after the fact for those deployed to austere locations.


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## dapaterson (29 Sep 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> As far as CTOs go....
> 
> CF Leave Manual
> 
> Yes, if you are someone that doesn't have a regular schedule, you are entitled to CTOs on any day of the week when you work on week ends and you do not need a leave pass or "special leave" from the CO to do so...



No.  CTO does not exist.

If you work shift, and work extra time, your CO may elect to give you shifts off you'd otherwise be working.  Giving that time off is known as "leave".


Let's suppose you normally work Wednesday through Sunday, 16h00-2400.  A situation arises and you're called in Monday and Tuesday 08h00-16h00.  Your boss has two options:

(a) Have you work your normal shifts; or

(b) Grant you time off your normal shifts.  Time off is leave.


The only situation I can think of that would differ is someone on an irregular shift pattern, called in for extra work, and the CO then orders the duty roster changed to give that person time off because they worked additional.  That might not be seen as leave; but in the "I worked extra days.  Woe is me I deserve more time off." situation it is definitely a CO who may elect to grant short leave.


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## SupersonicMax (29 Sep 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> No.  CTO does not exist.



I know that per se, CTOs don't exist. However, time off given for working extra days is still call this way.  But you are right, CTOs do not exist per se.

It's not always as Black & White as you make it look like.  Take a pilot on a squadron that has alert duties.  He normally works Monday through Friday, but sometimes, on week ends, he has to hold the alert.  That pilot is given a day off (we call it CTO, and even our CO and Wing Commander) at his convenience.  For scheduling purposes, we try to take that day off within 2 weeks.  But it's not always possible. 

We don't work with "roster" and the CO doesn't order schedule changes for the individual, rather it's up to the individual to take that time off.  And no leave pass is required, as it is considered a week end.


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Sep 2012)

Really? Are we still beating this dead horse..........  :deadhorse:


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## Shamrock (29 Sep 2012)

Dapeterson:

Combat arms have no dedicated stand-alone units for general use. Some units have repurposed a system or two, but they are typically quite busy. Can we have a reasonable expectation of all our soldiers to have quick access to a computer at all times? Should we have the expectation they own one and have INet acces so they can type in sick? 

I'm not discounting the value of system used for the civvies. However, the CFs paperless transition has not been flawless. Many a troop doesn't maximize EMAA, many a leader doesn't maximize Monitor Mass, an many is the soul who has no clue of DFC and Publications to name a few essential resources. 

Until we have an in-place training system that teaches leaders and subordinates how to maximize ther resources, I feel our time, money, and resources would be better invested in bringing back pips and executive curls. Otherwise, all that will happen will be a vague oporder telling us to transition to some new system and a smug sense of accomplishment behind an introducing chaos PER bubble.


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## garb811 (29 Sep 2012)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I know that per se, CTOs don't exist. However, time off given for working extra days is still call this way.  But you are right, CTOs do not exist per se.
> 
> It's not always as Black & White as you make it look like.  Take a pilot on a squadron that has alert duties.  He normally works Monday through Friday, but sometimes, on week ends, he has to hold the alert.  That pilot is given a day off (we call it CTO, and even our CO and Wing Commander) at his convenience.  For scheduling purposes, we try to take that day off within 2 weeks.  But it's not always possible.
> 
> We don't work with "roster" and the CO doesn't order schedule changes for the individual, rather it's up to the individual to take that time off.  And no leave pass is required, as it is considered a week end.



What you're describing is NOT shift work, it is called standing a duty, just like what happens at Units and Bases across the CF on a daily basis.  Shift work happens when your normal schedule does not follow the standard Mon-Fri as the standard, not the exception, such as what happens with MP, Fire Fighters, Watch Keepers in Op Centres etc.  What you are getting should be accounted for via a Short Leave day and not doing that is, in fact, illegal.


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## aesop081 (29 Sep 2012)

garb811 said:
			
		

> What you are getting should be accounted for via a Short Leave day and not doing that is, in fact, illegal.



Nope. I am in a similar situation as Max and the number of days exceeds the number of short days the CO can dish out.

Believe it or not, the CF leave manual has some serious deficiencies.


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## smale436 (29 Sep 2012)

Us groundcrew in the Fighter world have been experiencing this as well for many years. This past August I was told, after working Monday thru Friday, that they desperately needed people to work at a charity event that took place on the base over the weekend and people would be voluntold if they found no takers. (I had nothing going on so figured why not?) Those were 12 hour days and we received two short days as a result. I also worked on a weekend (in the same month) after a 5 day work week to deal with QRA stuff. Thus I received what we still call, as Supersonic Max called them, two CTO's. However the leave pass through Monitor Mass said "Shift worker" in the leave type and I had the following Monday and Tuesday off after working the weekend in question.


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## Good2Golf (29 Sep 2012)

Point being, there is no longer any such thing as compensatory time off in the CF leave lexicon.  

If a member is directed by their CoC to work a day that was otherwise not within their regular work schedule, the member's work schedule can be adjusted subsequently to account for the additional duty being assigned outside of the regular schedule ("your Monday duty was moved to this Saturday past, so return to regular duty on Tuesday").  If the member is directed to otherwise continue with their regular work schedule, the only other appropriate option is to issue the member a day of Short Leave as authorized by, or delegated by the CO. 

:2c:

Regards
G2G


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## Shamrock (29 Sep 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Point being, there is no longer any such thing as compensatory time off in the CF leave lexicon.
> 
> If a member is directed by their CoC to work a day that was otherwise not within their regular work schedule, the member's work schedule can be adjusted subsequently to account for the additional duty being assigned outside of the regular schedule ("your Monday duty was moved to this Saturday past, so return to regular duty on Tuesday").  If the member is directed to otherwise continue with their regular work schedule, the only other appropriate option is to issue the member a day of Short Leave as authorized by, or delegated by the CO.
> 
> ...



Isn't that the very definition of a CTO?

I admit limited knowledge of shift workers. In the rare occurrence of a working weekend, a day or two of short may be issued in compensation. Where it becomes a recurring instance, would that not invite the individual to become a shift worker (and thus allow for a shifting duty schedule as described)?


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## garb811 (30 Sep 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nope. I am in a similar situation as Max and the number of days exceeds the number of short days the CO can dish out.
> 
> Believe it or not, the CF leave manual has some serious deficiencies.


Ahh...the way I read it this was a once a month or two kind of thing for him.

I agree 100% about the leave manual, all it did was take an antiquated and confusing system that had been lurching along for years and make it worse.


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## Good2Golf (30 Sep 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Isn't that the very definition of a CTO?
> 
> I admit limited knowledge of shift workers. In the rare occurrence of a working weekend, a day or two of short may be issued in compensation. Where it becomes a recurring instance, would that not invite the individual to become a shift worker (and thus allow for a shifting duty schedule as described)?



No.  There can be no definition of "CTO" because CTO as a specific type of leave does not exist.  

Can the CO authorize leave to a deserving member for work done beyond normal expectations?  Yes, and that is called short leave.  Does this mean some kind of one-for-one compensation if someone had to travel on a weekend day?  Not in my books, that's part of our duty and while kept in mind by supervisors, does not drive an actuarial approach to 'compensating' individuals for such travel.  Otherwise, alterations in working schedule should be accomplished through adjustments to that schedule.  

Regards
G2G


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Apr 2016)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> If I understand the military system correctly we get 2 days sick leave a month without needing to go to sick parade (with CoC approval). I have never used them, any sick leave I have ever taken has been signed by the Doc, that doesn't mean I have 6 months of unused leave,  it means I have 2 days in may just like I had in Apr. I think that is pretty sufficient.



I am not sure about this policy anymore actually.  I think it was initiated by CF H Svcs Gp back about mid-2000s.  I first recall it when I was at a HQ and it came out (as far as I can remember...).  The intent was to keep people with the Flu or common cold, etc out of the CDUs during the initial 48 hours (most able to infect others during that time) for something they would just as likely be given a few days at home to recover.

At the unit I was at, Snr NCOs and up were able to authorize 2 x days 'sick at home' without a medical sick chit, on the 3rd day the mbr was required to report to the MIR.  It was published in our ROs as such so the policy was clear.

I have heard of people (one of them was a Sgt at the unit I reported to when I OTd and was a Cpl again back in '07) who thought there was an 'entitlement' to 2 days off a month for sick leave, sort of like a civilian employee might get.  I know of at least one case on my Wing and in my trade of someone who also believes this myth but hasn't be educated yet; that will happen at some point as everyone is bound to end up at the line sqn sooner or later.  

Seems to me, the last few years or so people have been getting far better at just 'making stuff up' instead of finding and following official direction/policy.  Not just on this topic, and a whole bunch of other ones too.  The latest one I heard was the "you have to submit a leave pass if you are not sleeping within the geographical boundaries of base on the weekend" one.  Yup, I'll just ignore that, thanks.

On another note, boys oh boys are we ever off topic the last few pages!!   ;D


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (1 May 2016)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> If I understand the military system correctly we get 2 days sick leave a month without needing to go to sick parade (with CoC approval). I have never used them, any sick leave I have ever taken has been signed by the Doc, that doesn't mean I have 6 months of unused leave,  it means I have 2 days in may just like I had in Apr. I think that is pretty sufficient.



Local policy.

Where I am if you're sick you report to MIR, no freebees. If you're too sick to report to the MIR we'll send you an ambulance.


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## mariomike (13 May 2016)

See also,

Sick Days/Sick Leave/Calling in Sick
http://army.ca/forums/threads/107620.50.html
3 pages.

Sick Days  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/83189.0

Malingering
http://army.ca/forums/threads/74062.25
2 pages.


Edited.


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## Lumber (13 May 2016)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> Local policy.
> 
> Where I am if you're sick you report to MIR, no freebees. If you're too sick to report to the MIR we'll send you an ambulance.



This drives me bonkers, and fortunately I haven't been at a unit that has made a black and white policy such as this. Wherever I've been, if I'm so sick that I don't feel that it's safe for me to drive a car due to shivering and or vomiting, then they told you to stay home! My last department head on my last ship would actually kick people off the ship if it even looked like they were getting sick so as not to start a ship-wide epidemic. (and by kicked-off I mean sent home, not to the MIR).

It's especially relieving where I work now, because my MIR is 1.5 hours away! 



			
				NavyShooter said:
			
		

> If I was a betting man, I'd bet that there will be no pay-raise this year, and next year there will be a pay-freeze for all Federal Gov't employees.  If there isn't, then I'll be happy and enjoy my annual IPC increase.  I'm not holding my breath, nor writing any cheques based on a possible pay raise.
> NS



Just got my IPC! ;D


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## armyvern (13 May 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> This drives me bonkers, and fortunately I haven't been at a unit that has made a black and white policy such as this. Wherever I've been, if I'm so sick that I don't feel that it's safe for me to drive a car due to shivering and or vomiting, then they told you to stay home! My last department head on my last ship would actually kick people off the ship if it even looked like they were getting sick so as not to start a ship-wide epidemic. (and by kicked-off I mean sent home, not to the MIR).
> 
> It's especially relieving where I work now, because my MIR is 1.5 hours away!
> 
> Just got my IPC! ;D



Blame those who abuse it.

At a prior Unit, I went to the CO with the stats on a member ... because you can NOT get the Med world to sign off on charging even the most blatant asshole with malingering these days.  

Tracked bud for 6 months.  He called in sick two days per month every one of those 6 months.  Always on Fridays and Mondays.  With a mere two exceptions ... in the 2 months that there were long weekends, he called in sick on a Thursday and a Tuesday thus enabling himself of a super-long weekend.

CO made the call that the "privilege" of calling in sick no longer existed for this individual.  No collective 'punishment' of the entire Unit as all others were still able to call in if required.  This guy though, to freakin' bad - MIR for him ever after - along with the official admin paperwork placed on his file so future Units would also be aware of his track record.  Same Unit's policy was "Call in day 1, but if you're still sick on day 2, head to the MIR".  Same Unit was also very good at kicking people out of work to go home if they showed up to work being sickly to spare the rest of us.



Privilege, not a right.


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## Staff Weenie (13 May 2016)

Probably time for Mods to split this thread....

Vern - I had a Sgt doing the same thing. I talked to the BSurg to see what could be done - we agreed on a course of action. I called the member in and informed him he was being order to the clinic for a Part I & II Medical. He was sick so often, that clearly there was some sort of lingering health risk, maybe he had a chronic, possibly even potentially terminal conditions (he always had headaches on Fri or Mon), maybe it was a tumor??? In fact, he may not be suitable for service in the CAF anymore if he was sick so often. And oh by the way, I provided the clinic with a full record of all of your sick days over the past several months to help the clinicians in reaching a diagnosis. 

That stopped him in his tracks.....


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## Remius (13 May 2016)

I had the same issue with a Sgt as well. Fridays and Mondays twice a month.  Like clockwork.  I kept a spredsheet tracking leave, sick days, CTO etc.  We started sending him to the MIR when he would call in sick.  I even showed him the spreadsheet with his pattern over 12 months.  Eventually the MIR noticed the pattern and just sent him back to work when he would go in to see them.


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## Nudibranch (13 May 2016)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Blame those who abuse it.
> 
> At a prior Unit, I went to the CO with the stats on a member ... because you can NOT get the Med world to sign off on charging even the most blatant ******* with malingering these days.



No, the Med world will not "sign off' on charges of "malingering" - that is fully in keeping with clinical practice norms. Charging someone is an administrative CoC function, not Medical - the CO can charge, and if the proper legal processes are followed, clinicians can be called to testify. 

Nor does the electronic medical system purchased by the CAF from the lowest bidder allow for any sort of tracking or flagging of these kinds of issues. Proactive CoC's - who are way more aware of their pers' patterns of SP attendance than the clinicians, since flying into SP means the mbr could go for months literally seeing a different clinician every time - will reach out to their CDU team lead or the BaseSurg about their "problem mbrs" so that a way to cut them off at the knees can be found if indeed they are misusing the system. While the med world will not be charging anyone, there are things that can be done, such as holding a mbr with "diarrhea/vomiting" for a couple of hours until they've demonstrated their complete lack of either, before punting them back to the unit. Or the amazingly restorative power of the "increased regular medical care requirements" TCAT, as Staff Weenie mentioned.

But the CoC's sometimes appear to abdicate their responsibilities, and then complain that the medical system fails to fill the void (I can't count how many supervisors have called me asking for drug results on mbrs they "know" - in some cases allegedly from the mbr himself - that the mbr was on drugs or drunk, but instead of testing for cause and charging, they've sent them to Medical. Well great, now it's confidential med info. If you _know_ your mbr is drunk on duty, you deal with him! Medical still can and will treat him, but his release will can ever so much faster if through the disciplinary route). 

Speaking of charges, I wonder why the many mbrs who DAG yellow or red for psychosocial issues of a longer-standing nature just before a deployment (lack of feasible family care plan, going through complex divorce, etc) are never charged - they're happy to sit alongside drawing sea pay and don't report their deployability issues to their CoC, since their sea pay or their promotion or their whatever might be endangered - but the minute they're to actually deploy, off they go like a shot to Psychosocial with issues that have been going on for quite some time.


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## NavalMoose (13 May 2016)

Ah yes, the infamous "NATO knee"...I knew a few of those guys.


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## Walking rottie (18 Oct 2016)

Good day,

I'm trying to find out where the regulations are that state what you can and can not do while on extended sick leave. (example 1-2 months) Are you allowed to take a course? I know that traveling out of the region means you have to use annual unless you have that you are allowed to travel outside of the local area on your chit. 

If someone knows where I can find that information it would be great.


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## ModlrMike (18 Oct 2016)

On one's own time and dime it shouldn't be a problem, provided the member isn't doing things that are germane to their reasons for being on sick leave in the first place. I can see where a person is on sick leave for an injury that would be exacerbated by being at work, but at the same time that member can take a course in town that doesn't impact the injury.

On the Crown's time and dime, that's generally a different story. Typically one has to be fit to attend the course, and the course loading or joining instructions usually state that. I would think that sick leave would preclude being loaded on course, unless there were extenuating circumstances, or the course was part of the member's return to duty programme

In short though, I'm not sure there's a specific regulation that covers what your asking.


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## Mediman14 (9 Apr 2019)

A story to share.... Over the pass couple of days, I have heard several members indicate that they was on stress leave, from what I know and read in the regs, there is no stress leave. Honestly, from my experience, I hear this the most from Health Services personnel. At one point, in my previous unit, a total 8 of Medics had been given leave/ excused duties in the same period of time by several Medical Officers. Although the reason(s) for excused duties are the members confidentiality, one can't help but wonder why 8 people in the same time frame??

This raised a few eye brows, the Commanding Officer being concerned, ordered the BSurg to see exactly what was given to the Members. Here is the end result;
      - Some peoples excused duties was reduced
      - Some people was ordered back to work
Later an email was sent unit wide by the Commanding Officer, explaining that work conflict is no reason to see a Medical Officer and that all conflicts should be handled within the unit.

Was this the right thing to do?? Was this abuse of authority? 
 I feel that there is some many questions to this.


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## ModlrMike (9 Apr 2019)

I agree, there is formally no such thing as "stress leave". That being said, stress can be a reason to be granted sick leave.

I further agree with the CO, but to a point. Going to the MO as a first solution to a workplace conflict is not appropriate. There are measures already in place to deal with workplace issues. If, however a member has exhausted all available resources, and to their detriment the conflict persists, then that takes us back to my first point... sick leave.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Apr 2019)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> Later an email was sent unit wide by the Commanding Officer, explaining that work conflict is no reason to see a Medical Officer and that all conflicts should be handled within the unit.



I can't say that I agree with this, and it seems to me it contradicts purpose of the Integrated Conflict and Complaint Management Program.

While the Program does stress 'lowest level possible' and reporting to the CO informally, etc before going formal there are times a mbr may not want/chose to do so or even be willing to attempt ADR.

Some of the benefits of the ICCM services is to bring conflict out of the workplace, take some of the demands off the CofC in terms of time/effort in resolution, and provide a support sys for the CofC for those 'can handle inhouse' instances.


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## gcclarke (9 Apr 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I agree, there is formally no such thing as "stress leave". That being said, stress can be a reason to be granted sick leave.
> 
> I further agree with the CO, but to a point. Going to the MO as a first solution to a workplace conflict is not appropriate. There are measures already in place to deal with workplace issues. If, however a member has exhausted all available resources, and to their detriment the conflict persists, then that takes us back to my first point... sick leave.



Furthermore, if like many other places, the unit is in the habit of allowing members to "call in" for sick leave for up to the two days that a CO can authorize, then why would a bad mental health day be any less valid of a reason to call in than an acute infection, etc?


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## medicineman (9 Apr 2019)

I had a bit of a rant...I note Mike beat me to the punch (and when I tried to post, the thread got moved, lol).  IMO, if a CO is noticing that a pile of folks is on Sick Leave and it appears that it's secondary to work place conflict (assuming someone actually allowed the docs to divulge that) or they're just assuming it because all the people are in the same sub unit, then they should be concerned to the point that their Adjutant and RSM should be doing some digging around to find out WTF is going on.  

I have seen issues where people feel because they're in a medical unit, they're entitled to above the usual amount of information regarding a member's health issues or that they can insinuate themselves into that person's care or outright disregard medical chits.  Had the pleasure of watching a medical RSM have their bum handed to them by someone's MO for meddling with their light duty schedule...after having had the displeasure the day before of hearing said platoon mate get his ass reamed out by same RSM while I was in THE PARKING LOT and they were behind a closed door in the RSM's office (so yeah, everyone heard him get called a malingerer).  

MM


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## Mediman14 (10 Apr 2019)

From what I know, I can't be 100% certain on why all 8 medics had leave (excused duties, sick leave) given to them, but it is really something to ponder about. What is true, but is sad,  Medics become friends with Nurses, MO's, and etc, the same way friends are made in different units. This just happens to be a medical unit. It is relatively easy to get time off. 

I feel unsettled about the whole thing, the fact that a CO asking to find out what was given to Members (Medically) kind of rubs me the wrong way. He had to be given some medical information or details on some people had said to get excused duties. One of these members went through a rough time, having loss their mother due till illness. After receiving 14 days of leave, it was clear that this member struggled daily at work because of the death. The member presented themselves to mental health who presented the situation to one of the Medical Officers, the end result, the member was given sick leave. Two days later, the member was called back to work. I admit I do not know all the details of this but I what I do know, the Junior member and the CO met at the Conflict and Resolution center (1st time for the member, 3rd time in a year for the CO). A week later, the member was given more time.


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## ModlrMike (10 Apr 2019)

COs have a right to know how much time away from work their members have been given. They don't have a right to know why. There is no evidence in what you've presented so far to indicate that medical confidentiality was breached.


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## Mediman14 (10 Apr 2019)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> COs have a right to know how much time away from work their members have been given. They don't have a right to know why. There is no evidence in what you've presented so far to indicate that medical confidentiality was breached.



Yup, you are right, CO's does the right to know how much time away work, but over riding a medical officer with excused duties seems to be a bit to far. I see this different. I am pretty sure that there was a CANFORGEN indicating that orders given by a MO's are to be followed (regarding Medical Advice). The reason why Members are given time off by MO's is none of a CO's business. With that in mind, how is a CO to determine what is appropriate time off with not looking at why in the first place time off was given by an MO.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Apr 2019)

If I was a CO and a sections worth of members of  my unit were all getting sick leave with similar MELs I would feel that it's due diligence on my part to investigate if there was some kind of work place situation I was unaware of leading to the loss of work.


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## ballz (10 Apr 2019)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> Yup, you are right, CO's does the right to know how much time away work, but over riding a medical officer with excused duties seems to be a bit to far. I see this different. I am pretty sure that there was a CANFORGEN indicating that orders given by a MO's are to be followed (regarding Medical Advice). The reason why Members are given time off by MO's is none of a CO's business. With that in mind, how is a CO to determine what is appropriate time off with not looking at why in the first place time off was given by an MO.



You stated the CO asked the Base Surgeon to review it... it doesn't sound like the CO overruled anything. It sounds like the Base Surgeon made the conclusions that some of the sick leave wasn't warranted and advised him of general information not specific to any individual.


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## AKa (11 Apr 2019)

We had a similar situation at one of my units.  There was a rash of prolonged sick leaves that almost inevitably followed some type of performance/conduct counselling.  I know correlation does not equal causation but it was starting to smell fishy.  So we asked the BSurg to review.  The BSurg came back and told us that he considered that not all were medically required and he adjusted accordingly.

A doctor friend of mine told me that some clinicians (not just military) find it simply easier to write a sick chit than coach/advise/suggest the patient address a workplace conflict.  And admittedly, in some cases it might be the best course of action.

I am not at all shy anymore about asking the BSurg to review a file.  It can also be an opportunity to discuss whether the member's needs would be better met if they were posted to the JPSU.

Cheers,

AK


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## Blackadder1916 (11 Apr 2019)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> . . .  At one point, in my previous unit, a *total 8 of Medics* had been given leave/ excused duties in the same period of time by several Medical Officers. Although the reason(s) for excused duties are the members confidentiality, one can't help but wonder why 8 people in the same time frame??
> 
> . . .  the Commanding Officer being concerned, ordered the BSurg to see exactly what was given to the Members. Here is the end result;
> - Some peoples excused duties was reduced
> ...



Maybe I'm reading a bit more into your scenario than is the actual but if this situation occurred in a medical unit then the CO would (or should) be not only concerned with soldiers under his command taking undue advantage of sick leave but also of the perhaps improper granting of sick leave by medical officers who may also be under his command.  While "no officer who is not a medical officer shall exercise command over a medical officer in respect of his treatment of a patient" the CO of a medical unit is still responsible for the proper provision of medical services to the elements that he is tasked to support including his own.  And if the CO is also a medical officer then he may also be the senior medical authority.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Apr 2019)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> Yup, you are right, CO's does the right to know how much time away work, but over riding a medical officer with excused duties seems to be a bit to far. I see this different. I am pretty sure that there was a CANFORGEN indicating that orders given by a MO's are to be followed (regarding Medical Advice). The reason why Members are given time off by MO's is none of a CO's business. With that in mind, how is a CO to determine what is appropriate time off with not looking at why in the first place time off was given by an MO.



I had a weird feeling reading this thread so I did a quick search of your posts from a few years ago leading up until now. I may be wrong but your previous posts and these recent ones about _anonymous people at your work you seem randomly concerned about_ kind of paint a picture for me about whats going on. Maybe a series of events leading up to something? It's none of my business but you might want to consider taking a read of the posts you've made on the forum and maybe seeking some assistance from the mods here to delete or modify some stuff for persec reasons.


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