# would this make the milcot more viable?



## c_canuk (28 Jan 2006)

http://www.mattracks.com/html/product_information__brochure.htm

it's a track system that bolts on like a wheel does pretty much, the video clips are pretty impressive...

I know the milcot is mostly just a on road hauler, but would something like this make them more suited for the training area?


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## Scarf Face (28 Jan 2006)

Holy crap, that looks pretty cool. Though I doubt the military would pick that up - it's easier to just end up getting stuck and calling recovery, hehe.


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## willy (28 Jan 2006)

UNCLAS LUVW 6004
BILINGUAL MESSAGE / MESSAGE BILINGUE
(TEXTE FRANCAIS SUIVRA)
SUBJ:  TIRE REPLACEMENT LUVW MILCOTS (GM SILVERADO)
1. IN AN EFFORT TO IMPROVE THE CAPABILITY OF THE MILCOTS VEHICLES
PMO LUVW IS REPLACING THE FIRESTONE STEELEX LT 245/75 R16 WITH THE
MICHELIN 245/75R16 LTX AT
2. TIRES WILL BE REPLACED BY ATTRITION ONLY USING THE FOLLOWING
PROCESS: WHEN TIRES BECOME WORN OR DAMAGED - REPLACE ALL TIRES ON
THAT VEHICLE WITH MICHELIN TIRES NSN 2610-20-001-3523. THE WORN OR
DAMAGED TIRES MAY BE DISCARDED. ANY SERVICABLE TIRES WILL BE HELD BY
MAINTENANCE SECTIONS AND USED AS SPARES FOR OTHER VEHICLES IN THE
LOCAL AREA. WHEN THESE SPARES ARE EXHAUSTED REPEAT THE PROCESS UNTIL
NO FIRESTONE TIRES EXIST
3. THE AIR PRESSURE FOR THE MICHELIN TIRES WILL BE FIFTY-FIVE (55)
PSI FOR ALL FIVE TIRES
PAGE 2 RCCPJAW4028 UNCLAS
4. FOR SAFETY REASONS THE USE OF TWO DIFFERENT BRAND TIRES ON THE
SAME VEHICLE IS NOT PERMITTED
5. BASES/UNITS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO HOLD STOCK OF NSN
2610-21-001-3523. THESE TIRES WILL BE STOCKED UNDER ITEM MANAGER
ADVISORY CODE 1Z AND WILL BE ISSUED UNDER NDHQ DIRECTION
END OF ENGLISH TEXT//DEBUT DU TEXTE FRANCAIS


Photos of prototype upgrades are floating around on the DIN, but I can't find any at the moment.


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## Spartan (28 Jan 2006)

I wonder if a lift kit for the trucks is in the works as well. Would certainly help...


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## BernDawg (28 Jan 2006)

Mattracks have been attached to 2 veh in Alert.  They are used by environment Canada because they have to access their sites daily and the snow drifts can be impassable to regular trucks at a moments notice.  The maintenance sect there feels that they are maintenance intensive and a waste of time but EC bought them and use them so we have to maintain them.
     Except for the worst possible ground conditions they actually hinder mobility.  Increased turning radius, incidental veh damage, reduced speed, increased powertrain wear and the list goes on.
     I believe they have their place but the MILCOTS isn't it.


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## Michael OLeary (28 Jan 2006)

Berndawg, thank you, observations such as your's are always the best contribution to this type of thead.


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## NL_engineer (28 Jan 2006)

Can the mattracks be used on road??

All the Millcots needs is a good lift kit, despite what some people on the LFRS form say; 4" is not enough ground clearance to go off-road with, and for that matter use on some of the roads in the base part of Gagetown, let alone the training area. ;D


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## 48Highlander (28 Jan 2006)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Can the mattracks be used on road??
> 
> All the Millcots needs is a good lift kit, despite what some people on the LFRS form say; 4" is not enough ground clearance to go off-road with, and for that matter use on some of the roads in the base part of Gagetown, let alone the training area. ;D



Even with higher clearance....you may be able to take it off road, but how much are you going to transport in it?  Ever see the weight rating on the MILCOT?  Compare the figures on the data plate, and then think about wether you'd really want to off-road in one with anything more than 2 men + pers kit.  When all's said and done, the MILCOT was never meant to be used as a heavy-duty all terrain logistics vehicle, and no ammount of changes are going to make it capable of filling that role.


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Jan 2006)

There is a lifted MILCOT in Wainwright with real big tires.  I believe it is a trial version to see what can be done and I was told it was being upgraded by a civie garage and cost quite a bit.  That being said I think tires will definately make a difference but it still needs to be lift some.


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## NL_engineer (28 Jan 2006)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Even with higher clearance....you may be able to take it off road, but how much are you going to transport in it?  Ever see the weight rating on the MILCOT?  Compare the figures on the data plate, and then think about wether you'd really want to off-road in one with anything more than 2 men + pers kit.  When all's said and done, the MILCOT was never meant to be used as a heavy-duty all terrain logistics vehicle, and no ammount of changes are going to make it capable of filling that role.



You should never take a fully loaded Milcots off road. Four men with full kit, along with basic tools is no were near the full capacity of the truck. I am not talking about using it an ML or LS, but to at least be able to go through some of the Gagetown mud with out having to call recovery 8)

The undercarrage of the Milcots is built quite well, it would not be as low if there was no skid plates. The main thing is the body will get bent and dented, because it is only thin metal with some green paint on it.


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## BernDawg (28 Jan 2006)

No sweat.  ;D


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 Jan 2006)

"The undercarriage of the Milcots is built quite well"
That may or may not be true but I do know this.  There is a third battery behind the right front tire built into the undercarriage and is quite vulnerable.  Also the sides dent like an aluminum can.  But then I have to remind myself that it is not meant to go were an ML is supposed to go.  Got to love the AC and radio though.
In addition to a lift kit and tires I think the vehicle would do well to have a skid plate run the entire undercarriage.


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## TCBF (29 Jan 2006)

The lifted MILCOT is on hold at the moment.  The EME Maj and WO, just posted in,  inherited a memo on the CMTC MILCOTS written last spring by a CMTC WO. They were then directed from 'higher' to act swiftly.  They did, and now have met with a bit of a delay from Ottawa, and this will mean a delay in modding the CMTC MILCOTS.  Note that the mods were for CMTC, and NOT intended to be fleet wide.  This should be sorted out soon.

For us.

No luck for you lot.

Tom


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## GK .Dundas (29 Jan 2006)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Mattracks have been attached to 2 veh in Alert.  They are used by environment Canada because they have to access their sites daily and the snow drifts can be impassable to regular trucks at a moments notice.  The maintenance sect there feels that they are maintenance intensive and a waste of time but EC bought them and use them so we have to maintain them.
> Except for the worst possible ground conditions they actually hinder mobility.  Increased turning radius, incidental veh damage, reduced speed, increased powertrain wear and the list goes on.
> I believe they have their place but the MILCOTS isn't it.


 A couple of years back Manitoba Hydro  tested them, most of the people in the Garage thougth they were dogs!


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 Jan 2006)

Yeah I forgot to mention they were for CMTC.  The one I did see looked badass though.


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## Gunnerlove (12 Feb 2006)

If you want to be able to take a truck off road put some real tires on it. 


General Grabber MTs or BFGoodrich mud terrains. They howl on the road but the traction is worth it. What kind of wiener is choosing our "off road" tires? 

Running a skid plate rear of the transfer case would interfere with the drive shaft.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Feb 2006)

The Milcots have been given the tire upgrade...eventually.  When the rubber they wear degrades enough to warrant replacements they will get better shoes.


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## Gunnerlove (13 Feb 2006)

According to Willy's post they are "upgrading" to another highway tire because the last ones sucked off road.


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## lostrover (4 Apr 2006)

the Milcot is already a very viable vehicle, along with most of the fleet, individuals need to be taught how to properly drive in order to get the most from the vehicle.  It replaced the Iltis, and provides enhanced mobility in garrison and the field verus the sea of panel vans and crewcabs that accompany most into the field.  Seems most of the military view off-road driving as going as fast as possible with no regards for either the vehicle or the environment.  When I got my 404's we still had the 5/4 and CUCV, CJ-7's et al..............How many people driving the Milcot realize or have been taught how the rear locking differential can be a benefit and how handling is affected by it, gee they would be in awe when they find out you can turn the wheels to the right yet move the vehicle to the left

Guess some will never be happy with what they have


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## chrisf (4 Apr 2006)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Even with higher clearance....you may be able to take it off road, but how much are you going to transport in it?  Ever see the weight rating on the MILCOT?  Compare the figures on the data plate, and then think about wether you'd really want to off-road in one with anything more than 2 men + pers kit.  When all's said and done, the MILCOT was never meant to be used as a heavy-duty all terrain logistics vehicle, and no ammount of changes are going to make it capable of filling that role.



Myself and TCBF had this discussion before.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23637.105.html

The data plate appears to have been incorrect.

Aditionally, no one is suggesting using the milcot as a heavy cargo carrier... it's got room to transport 4 troops plus supplies. 

We had an RRB varient for a while (Standard Cargo milcot with an RRB radio install). The MPs use a varient (Standard Cargo Milcot with a Light bar installed on top as far as I know). The Linemen also use a varient (It's got a different cab, with a flat bed and mounted cable layer, also dual wheels).

Consider the following... I've had a basic cargo milcot bottom out repeatedly while driving on a moderately maintained dirt road.

If I had an RRB varient, it's an ideal vehicle for an RRB, in much the same way the old iltis was ideal... everything is mounted, ready to go and roll out from the CP at a moments notice... the difference being the iltis was actually able to get into location once you got where you were going... the milcot can't always brag that.

The line varient is one of the more ridiculous vehicles... it's got a second fuel tank that's just begging to be ripped off by a good sized pothole. The further problem of course being that the shortest distance between two points doesn't always involve a road, and the linemen rather prefer to run their line in a straight path... and believe me, I've seen them put LSVWs in some rather strange spots... and drive them out again... can't do that with a milcot...

It's like I said when somone asked me about the snorkels on American vehicles... "They won't give them to us... because if we had them, we'd use them..." same reason we don't have lift kits or big tires for the milcots.


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## lostrover (4 Apr 2006)

Consider the following... I've had a basic cargo milcot bottom out repeatedly while driving on a moderately maintained dirt road.


			
				Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> It takes alot to bottom out a Milcot, will look in my notes but suspension travel/rate and repost later (when you say bottom out, I trust you mean the suspension or where you grounding the vehicle?)
> 
> According to Willy's post they are "upgrading" to another highway tire because the last ones sucked off road.



Actually Firestone SteelTex tires no longer being made, and about 300,000 of them have been recently recalled, hence the decision to go to Michelin LTX AT's


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## Gunnerlove (6 Apr 2006)

http://www.rodmillen.com/special/httv/video/httv2.mpg

Same power plant as the Milcots.


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## Wookilar (6 Apr 2006)

Michellin X tires. They are on the LS, Iltis, ML, HL. (See a pattern here?) don't get me wrong, they are far better than what we had in the first place on those vehicles (well, maybe not the HL, especially the wrecker, but that is debateable). As for the specialty off-road tires (the grabbers and their ilk), most are way too soft for what we do. Regardless of how well they do off road, the fact is most vehicles rack up their mileage on pavement (Edmonton to Wainwright, Pet to Meaford, etc.). Full time off-road tires would do excellent in the field, but we'd be replacing them every EX (and those of you that own a set of mudders know how much they cost).
Those track thingys are a major pain in the petunias to keep running. The amount of strain they put on the steering system and power train is way out side of what the trucks are designed for.
The Milcots are not perfect, and the fleet management system is kind of using them as an experiment to see how much money we "might" save over their projected life cycle.
I also have to agree with lostrover. Those of us that remember the 5/4's often note the similarities (it's still a chevy truck with extra suspension, that's it) and I've seen what Driver Wheel has been reduced to (I've taught enough of them to know). Now the Driver Wheeled is all about the mileage and the hours, not about technique or capabilities. I've pulled more people, in all types of vehicles, out of crap that they should not have gotten stuck in or should not have tried in the first place because it was so obvious (to someone that knows how to operate the vehicle) that the vehicle could not do it (4 ML's in the middle of a dry lakebed in Wainwright, I'm amazed they got in as far as they did!).
Oh, and don't tell me "But I was only doing about 25!" when your front diff has a piece of granite inside of it/steering shaft is broken clean off/fuel tank is ripped off. (unless you are in an LS, then all the above are normal).


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## lostrover (6 Apr 2006)

as per Wookiler, the addition of Michelin X series tires and proper driver trainingwuld solve alot of supposed issues with the Milcot, the Michelin XCL and XZL are both offered in 7.50R16E sizes almost identical in size to the 245/75R16 it is currently sporting, however as stated the majority of km are spent on hardpack thus negates the need for a more aggressive tread pattern.  Aggressive treads are at home in extreme muddy and techincal rock scenario's only, the lack of siping reduced wet weather/snow handling and the spaced lugs of the treat equal less contact pressure with the ground.  Data plates in all the SMP fleet state different tire pressures for different terrain etc.....when is the last time you saw somebody air down there tires in the field??  Decreasing tire pressure equtes to a larger tire footprint on the ground, thus more contact area which =a greater potential for traction.  Having worked on contract with the DOD and MOD, the basis has been that the answer is driver training.  GM Defence in association with TACOM developed the requirement for the CUCV II and III (CUCV II aka our Milcot) turn-key lease operations and remanufacturing have proved to be essential in the modern defense climate.  Take some time and read the pubs on the LUVW Milcot......seems there is a strorage buin in the rear box for something amazing...........tire chains, funny how the only vehicles we see using them are LAV's, yet they are EIS for the entire SMP fleet (but you might have to go to the UK or Norway to see them being used).  Apart from the drive it like you stole it mentality of most drivers in the CF, the lack of driver training has once again negated the virtues and purpose of the transfer box (ie low range) and features such as locking differentials.  Maintainers are overwhelmed dealing with repairs as a direct result of abuse by there operators/drivers.  The vehicle is a tool, and is essential to complete ones mission, one needs to treat it with respect, for should you lose mobility, the mission is in jeopordy.  The CUCV II/Milcot is a fastastic platorm in the right environment, it has an EMP (Extended Mobility Platform) option, features such as CTIS (constant tire infaltion system), Lift package, Hydro Lock front and rear differentials, same tires/rims as the Humvee platform.  The Milcot is fitted with both front and rear reciever hitches............why..........as they are designed to be used with a multi mount winch.  Regretfully recovery operation in the CF and US Army have made this a specialized task, however the US Army is begining to see the rewards of self recovery operations once again (the option of blowing in place or recovery, is now begining to change to self recovery first......recovery second then final option blow in place). Winching operation, Kinetic recoveries et all.... should be taught to all operators and practiced regularily until competency is gained (recovery operation can be leathal..........kinda of like a C6 in the hand of a crazy gunman..........how hard is it to split an MLVW in half??............with improper reovery.......very easy....amazing how a winch cable will just slice through all that steel like it was paper.............finally stopped half way through the rear Rockwell diff)


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## Wookilar (7 Apr 2006)

Agreed. Totally.

We teach self - recovery on the LAV III's, but it is barely even mentioned in most other courses. Part of the reason is the compressed time frame. Self - recovery should be one of the more important parts taught.

RANT ON:
As to the "abuse" issue, you have no idea how many times one of us grease monkey types have become rabid, frothing at the mouth, creatures wearing cover-alls when some troop tells us an out right lie.  

Listen, EVERYONE, when something breaks, tell the mechs/gun plummers/mat techs/fcs dudes what happened. If you were doing something stupid, admit it. Know why? We know. We know the machines, we know the materials used, we know how much strain it takes to snap a 3 inch, solid steel, steering shaft clean. If you don't know what happened, then you don't know. Trying to cover your ass will only get your maintainer upset. Realize that we have no authority whatso ever when it comes to accidents. We NEED to know how it broke so we can make sure it won't happen again.
RANT OFF:
sorry about that, had to get that off my chest.  :


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## BernDawg (8 Apr 2006)

;D  I concur.  I've broken tons of sh*t from m113s to the Iltis and always told my MRT what I did.  Not only did they fix it faster (because they knew exactly what to look for) when something really wasn't my fault they knew I was telling the truth because that's what I always did.  
   As for the self recovery it was always taught on the FMC Driver wheel crse (it's come in handy quite a few times too).  It's a shame it has been removed mostly due to time constraints.
   We used to go with the vehicle to the shop and help repair it too.  That really cut down on stupidity on the drivers part too cause it meant more work for you too not just the MRT guys.


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## el_wiersema (16 Apr 2006)

From what I heard about half of the Milcots will be getting upgrades including a huge liftkit, new transmition and super mega insanly agressive tires. This upgrade will cost approx $10000. Every unit should get atleast one or two milcots with this upgrade within the next year. This is the word that has been going around the 38 Brg Artillery Tactical Group for the last few months. I know you can't beleive everything you hear, but it's really the logical choice.


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## TCBF (16 Apr 2006)

"From what I heard about half of the Milcots will be getting upgrades including a huge liftkit..."

- Considering Ottawa just stopped CMTC from proceding with ANY more modded vehs, and basically told CMTC that rather than slightly mod the MILCOT, we should buy an Observer/Controller specific vehicle, I doubt the MILCOT will be modded soon.


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## opfor (11 May 2006)

here is some pics of the CMTC Milcot


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## Nfld Sapper (11 May 2006)

I like that MILCOTS  ;D  alot better than the pos we got right now.


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## Thompson_JM (12 May 2006)

*Drool*

I want one......

by the way, forgive the ignorance but what is CMTC?


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## Gunnerlove (12 May 2006)

I loath Wainwright, and that is wher CMTC is.


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## c_canuk (12 May 2006)

for 50K each, thats what they all should look like.

The Milcot from what I can see is the 4X4 base model of the Silverado(MSRP 20 000) we got:

upgrade to 6.5 L Deisel Engine and transmission
new bumpers
green paint
24 volt accompanying electrical  system including 2 new batteries, and one hanging out the bottom of the truck to be smashed...
Rifle racks
map light
no coffe holder
blackout drive lights
pindlehook you can't use without a bolt kit
skid plate


only for an extra 30 grand, 150% the price of the truck... considering you could drive a base model truck into a custom shop and probably have those mods excluding the engine swap done for 10 grand with them giggling behind your back at how you'd been ripped off I'm not impressed

and I doubt that the engine swap which would be harder than just installing a different engine in the first place and not having to buy the undesired gasoline engine and tranny, would cost 20 grand at said shop.

no I'm not impressed with the milcot at all, it was not worth the money we paid for it, not even close.


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## TCBF (13 May 2006)

A few hours ago, I had one of the leased Ford 250 4X4 Crew Cabs down on the southern fireguard West of Yellow Route.  Then a prarie hailstorm hit.  Big. I had to cut my losses and turn around, as the waterholes were getting a lot bigger real fast and the whole fireguard was turning to goo.  The 250 in 4 low made it out.  Sometimes sideways, but it kept on going.  The MILCOTS - and me - would still be there.

The MILCOTS ain't even made in Canada, I think the 250 is.


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## vonGarvin (13 May 2006)

gravyboat said:
			
		

> Don't forget the dash clock that has to be reset every time you turn the truck off.


All are like that?  I've only been privy to ride in one, and yes, resetting the friggin' clock every time!   Man, sometimes it's the simple stuff...


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## genesis98 (13 May 2006)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> for 50K each, thats what they all should look like.
> 
> The Milcot from what I can see is the 4X4 base model of the Silverado(MSRP 20 000) we got:
> 
> ...




You also have to remember the warranty that GM is equiping with these trucks for several years after purchase, which is significant when you think of it.


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## NL_engineer (13 May 2006)

The cup holder problem can be is easily solved with a coffee tray from Tim's, on the black center rack; or some of the add on cup holders from Crappy Tire.  For the clock use your watch, or tape a small travel alarm clock to the dash (I have done that, and it works).  No comment on how it handles off road.


But this new one at least looks like it could handle something more then a dirt road :  

So the question is if we all complain about the rest of our kit, will the replace it all ???


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## Nfld Sapper (13 May 2006)

They handle bad off-road but I would love to drive  the CMTC one.


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## c_canuk (15 May 2006)

> You also have to remember the warranty that GM is equiping with these trucks for several years after purchase, which is significant when you think of it.



well the 20 000 basemodel come with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty... as well as 20 percent of gas for a year, and a few other things... isn't that the same warranty on the milcots?


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## Nfld Sapper (15 May 2006)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> well the 20 000 basemodel come with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty... as well as 20 percent of gas for a year, and a few other things... isn't that the same warranty on the milcots?



20 000 basemodel  ??? hopefully by then we won't still have them  ;D


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## c_canuk (16 May 2006)

sorry, that should have read

the $20 000 base model comes with a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty as well as 20% off gas

better?


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## genesis98 (16 May 2006)

I personally think there is a big difference in giving a warranty to a civilian though and giving a warranty to a user they know is going to put the vehicles through a hard life. One of the milcots over here at my unit is now returning to GM for it's 10th maintenence problem I do believe, if you take into account the average cost of a mechanic working on a vehicle is around $65/hour and we assume average maintence job takes 2 hours then  this this milcot alone has racked up $1300 in mechanic fees alone, and that's not including parts.


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## Carbon-14 (19 May 2006)

Where are you getting a 4x4 Silverado Crew cab for $20 000?  I just went to the GM Canada website and one costs $38 000+ w/o any options.


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## opfor (21 May 2006)

the stickerprice for one of those it about $68 000 plus all the upgrades.


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## lostrover (3 Jun 2006)

As for the civy version having a 5 year bumper to bumper waranty...........yes it does..............dig a little deeper, GM commercial sales division.................6 month warranty.  On the exposed brake lines................should we but them on the inside of the frame, so you can see them (it is a boxed frame they can only go on one side or the other) easy fix a piece of 1/4 angle iron, still waiting for someone to post the tragic story of how they ripped off brake lines off of a Milcot (much easier to tear a rear main line on the diff).  As to where the secondary battery is??  learn to drive, look on the other side of the battery tray, you will see the frame, if you manage somehow to tear the secondary battery off...........you already have alot more problems going on, aka you have lost all mobility.  The EMP option has always been available from GM Defence on the CUCV II and III platforms, I fail to see why the extra expense for this option should be warranted, as most operators/drivers will still operate the platform as if they had stolen it.  The key to mobility is maintaing it...............once you break it by means of incompetance, you lose it.  But I guess the bigger tires et al just make it so much more viable for all the cowboys, and wil help to keep all of our local GM dealerships very busy with all the repair work and waiting on non stocked parts at most dealerships, well yet another way to support the Canadain Economy.  The CF has a systematic problem, that solely equates to a severe lack of driver training.


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## TCBF (4 Jun 2006)

Our present 'fleet-mentallty' driver training is 'breaker-breaker/CB/rig driver wannabee'.  It has nothing to do with the cross country and tactical use of an AFV or B vehicle.  The demise of the 'Combat Arms Advanced Driving and MAINTENANCE Course' for Cbt A at the RCAC School is part of the cause.  This was cut because the adults said "We all drive cars, so whats the big deal?"

And now we watch the wrecks and body bags pile up.

Tom


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## BernDawg (5 Jun 2006)

TCBF I concur.  Ref my earlier post on this thread.  Now for some on topic gossip.  I just heard from a guy that knows a guy.....  The powers that be have decided to replace all the BV206s in Alert with Mat-track trucks.  I shudder at the thought.  Any one else hear about this?


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jun 2006)

The logging companies that use pickup trucks in similar situation to the military use, generally expect to replace their fleet every 5 years, I somehow don’t see us doing that. Civilian pattern vehicles are great for reducing wear and tear on tactical vehicles and a cheaper way to equip reserve units with enough wheels. But they should never have been considered a replacement for tactical vehicles which is what it appears to be the direction we are going in.

Of course if the army hires some Liberian military advisors, you be welding on 106RR’s and 14.5 MGs and painting them in snappy camo schemes. The down side would be that the infantry would have wear oddball clothing and lifejackets and practice their combat dance routines. 

As using them to replace the BV206, bad idea......


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