# Canada's Navy in the 1980s



## FiredForEffect (31 Mar 2011)

For those of you who served in the navy in 1980s, I'd be interested if you had any comments on a few things. I know there are a few of you around. I'm writing a research paper for the University of Victoria on the subject, and have been interviewing naval officers around the Victoria area as part of their military oral history program to this end. The information would be helpful to provide a wider perspective. Perspectives of Junior Officers in the 1980s would be particularly helpful.

A few guiding questions:

[list type=decimal]
[*]Firstly, how influenced by NATO was Canada's Navy? Would it be fair to tie Canada's Navy to NATO in order to present what the Canadian Navy was like in the 1980s, with a full focus on fighting the Warsaw Pact?
[*]Was there an over emphasis of ASW capability at the expense of ASUW or AA?
[*]What were some advantages/disadvantages of being involved in NATO Operations?

[*]What sort of operations did you participate in/ was there a main theme of these Ops?
[/list]


Basically I'm looking for comments that would help me paint a picture of what the navy was like in the 1980s, especially operationally. I'm not so interested in procurement and equipment, which is fairly well documented.

The idea is to evaluate how Canada's navy in the 1980s and in NATO, shaped her when she moved into the the Gulf in 1990. Any comments would be appreciated.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (31 Mar 2011)

You may want to share _why_ you need this information so as to better guide the reader on whether or not they want to provide the information you seek.

Milnet.Ca Staff


----------



## Occam (31 Mar 2011)

Ahhhh, NORPLOYs and Northern Weddings.  Good times.

Can't tell you much about the politics of it all except it was us vs. the Red machine.  I was just there for the excellent European beer.   :blotto:


----------



## FSTO (31 Mar 2011)

I joined in 89 and was at Venture in 90. So I was in transition from the steamer Navy to CPF and TRUMP Navy.  In my opinion (and that was gleaned from my CTO's at Venture and my Div O's on FRASER and KOOTENAY) if that steamer Navy ever got involved in a shooting war, we would have had a bunch of dead sailors and not much to show for it. Not that our crews were incompetent, far from it, it was that the equipment was so obsolete that we would not have stood a chance against a Soviet onslaught.
Instead we made sure we had the shiphandlers, navigators, operators and engineers that could hold their own against anyone in the world.

From what I heard though, the runs ashore wheather it was in Hong Kong, Rosie Roads, Amsterdam, Pearl Harbor or St. John's were legendary. ;D


----------



## FiredForEffect (31 Mar 2011)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> You may want to share _why_ you need this information so as to better guide the reader on whether or not they want to provide the information you seek.
> 
> Milnet.Ca Staff


That's a good point. I'm not a reporter or anything like that. I am an ROTP student and I'm participating in the University of Victoria's Military Oral History project. As part of that project I've been interviewing officers of that time period. I thought that this would be a quick way to gather some other opinions (maybe even from officers who were junior at that time) in order to see some other perspectives in an informal way.

The information would be used in helping me consider other perspectives for the completion of a research essay, not to be archived, quoted or cited or anything like that. The literature makes it seem like ASW was the be all and end all of the navy in the 1980s and perhaps members would be able to shed light on that.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (31 Mar 2011)

I joined in 1982-first ship NIPIGON. I am an NCM so politics NEVER entered our messes. I recall everything being oriented toward the Russian horde though. I was also quite the shutter-bug in those days too (even as a stoker) and I am sure I have pics back home in Halifax that may hold some interest. I recall a Soviet AGI (sorry...) Fishing vessel coming alongside us somewhere south of Greenland. I have pics of them taking pics of us...mooning them (that's sticking your bare ass in the air for all to see for the uneducated) on the Flight Deck. When the Captain says to use whatever finger gestures or other gestures you wish as their camera pans over us, Canadian sailors tend to get quite artistic!
I know all wargames involved Soviet submarines and all scenarios were in Cyrillic. Funny enough, I was on board GATINEAU when a Russian TG (got pics of that too!) came into Halifax and our CO had been posted to the Canadian embassy in Moscow (I think - last name was Allen???) I was a brand new PO2 then and we brought a bunch of them into 3 Mess. First thing I noticed is that most of them had that "I don't f***ing trust you" look and second, they called Smirnoff vodka; s**t!!...They loved our Kieth's though! A neighbour hosted one of them for a weekend and offerred him his motorcycle for a ride down to Crystal Crescent Beach and the guy returned about 10 hours later...a bit of sweating there!...and then a couple years later... Hunt for Red October came out...hmm.. 
This probably doesn't help your research much but it was nice to reminisce.


----------



## Pusser (31 Mar 2011)

When I joined the Navy we all wore green and drove steamers.  

One interesting thing I've been starting to notice is the our newest ships now are about the same age as the ships we used to complain about 25 years ago as being soooo ancient!  When I was in YUKON, we celebrated her 25th anniversary (bull sub had to paint the bullring silver).  Yet HALIFAX is now about 20 years old.  Why don't we hear the complaints today that we did back then?  The only explanation I can think of is that technology has not advanced in the last 25 years as much as it did in the 25 years before.  The only exception to this would perhaps be in computer systems and software.  Many of the improvements in the last 25 years have mostly involved software upgrades which have significantly changed the capabilities of the some equipment, without changing its outward appearance or the basic mechanics.  A good example is the vertical launch sea sparrow.  The capability has improved multi-fold, but the basic missile and the launcher are much the same as when we first got them.

The Navy seemed a lot more fun back then.  The only threat we dealt with was the Red Menace and all our training and doctrine was focused on that.  It was real too.  I remember being buzzed by Soviet aircraft on exercise and spending three hours one night chasing a Soviet submarine in a game of cat and mouse.  We worked damned hard, but we partied pretty hard too.  The runs ashore were phenomenal.  When the first Gulf War came along, everyone got very serious and everything changed.  The Soviets were no longer our biggest threat and the leadership started to get much more concerned about being seen to be working.  On board parties in home port were curtailed.  We could three spend three months away from our families, but heaven forbid we party all afternoon on board every once in awhile.  Everybody started watching the clock a lot more.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (1 Apr 2011)

Too True Pusser.  Change is good ...But too much change is bad...Maybe some of us need to slide aside and let the next generation take the stage?
I have a pic too of an old  Foxtrot that 'accidentally' surfaced in front of us somewhere off the Orkney's...
...Still reminiscing...!


----------



## FiredForEffect (1 Apr 2011)

Very interesting stuff, everything helps. By all means feel free to email me any pictures you might have, to evanrob@uvic.ca especially of a surfacing foxtrot! Pusser do you mind telling me what rank you were at that time? It's nice to reinforce the idea that the Soviets were the primary threat as thats really all that comes across in the literature. Too bad about it being more fun.

Ever do any boardings or interdiction operations back then?


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (1 Apr 2011)

> The capability has improved multi-fold, but the basic missile and the launcher are much the same as when we first got them.



Well considering we use ESSM rather then Sea Sparrow _now_ I would have to disagree we can do more with the evolved variant then we ever could we the standard sea sparrow we carried in octuple launchers on the pre Trump 280s.


----------



## Neill McKay (1 Apr 2011)

You've probably read it already, but in case you haven't I'd suggest a look at The Admirals.  It's the proceedings from a MARCOM history conference held a few years ago -- maybe 2005.  Each paper discusses one CNS, CMS, or their equivalents.  Several of the living ones, who would date from the era you're interested in, were there.

If you don't have access to it, let me know and I'll get the ISBN etc. from my copy at home.


----------



## jollyjacktar (1 Apr 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Why don't we hear the complaints today that we did back then?



Speaking for myself only.  I still want to complain, but frankly, why bother?  The powers that be have made so many promises before and just as quickly broken them on getting new ships or designing them.  I've just mostly just given up in dispair.

Yes, for the fun.  The old days were I am told much more fun.  Work hard, play hard.  Now it is like the Billy Graham Crusade or whatnot.  Feels like you are sailing with a gang of Monks.


----------



## Occam (1 Apr 2011)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Well considering we use ESSM rather then Sea Sparrow _now_ I would have to disagree we can do more with the evolved variant then we ever could we the standard sea sparrow we carried in octuple launchers on the pre Trump 280s.



Two quad launchers (one port, one starboard), you mean...


----------



## Pat in Halifax (1 Apr 2011)

I think he means ESSM (Enhanced Sea Sparrow Missile) vice SM-1. 
Two quad launchers??? (assume you mean pre TRUMP IRO class)


----------



## Occam (1 Apr 2011)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I think he means ESSM (Enhanced Sea Sparrow Missile) vice SM-1.
> Two quad launchers??? (assume you mean pre TRUMP IRO class)



Yup, Ex-Dragoon said pre TRUMP.  They went from 2 x quad RIM-7 pre TRUMP to the VLS launcher with Standard SM-2.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (1 Apr 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Yup, Ex-Dragoon said pre TRUMP.  They went from 2 x quad RIM-7 pre TRUMP to the VLS launcher with Standard SM-2.



I was told they were octuple but quad launchers make more sense, my point was you really can't compare ESSM with the original sea sparrow we bought for the Pre-Trump 280s.


----------



## Pusser (1 Apr 2011)

Actually, you all missed my point entirely with respect to missiles.  I wasn't talking about the Sea Sparrow on the pre-TRUMP 280s at all.  In fact I wasn't even talking about the 280s.  I was referring to the Vertical Launch Sea Sparrow missiles we currently have in the CPFs.  The launcher and basic missile itself have changed very little in the past 20 years, but what largely amounts to software upgrades have improved the missile's capability significantly (e.g. originally designed for surface to air, but now has a surface to surface capability).  You can make a similar observation for the Mk 46 torpedo, which has been in service even longer (almost 45 years) but the current version of which is still state of the art.

The main point I was trying to get across is that today's Fleet is almost as old today as the former Fleet was when I joined in the early 80s.  However, we consider today's Fleet state of the art (while still recognizing that we need to be planning for the next generation now), yet in the 80s we lamented how outdated it was.  The major difference in these two situations is that the advancements in technology between 1965 and 1985 were largely material in nature (transition from analog to digital, vacuum tubes to solid state, entirely new concepts, etc) and required expensive refits; whereas from 1985 to present, changes have largely been in software and smaller things that can be eased in gradually without need for major refits.    Now, before everybody dogpiles on and points out that we are about to start a major mid-life refit program for the CPFs, we did that for previous classes as well; however, the material changes were more significant (e.g. plot tables to ADLIPS).

We still had more fun though. :nod:


----------



## Pusser (1 Apr 2011)

FiredForEffect said:
			
		

> Very interesting stuff, everything helps. By all means feel free to email me any pictures you might have, to evanrob@uvic.ca especially of a surfacing foxtrot! Pusser do you mind telling me what rank you were at that time? It's nice to reinforce the idea that the Soviets were the primary threat as thats really all that comes across in the literature. Too bad about it being more fun.
> 
> Ever do any boardings or interdiction operations back then?



I joined the Naval Reserve in 1982 as a diesel mechanic, transferred later to the Regular Force as a MARS officer and was a sub-lieutenant when the Wall fell.  The Naval Landing and Boarding Party back then was largely for comic relief - nothing even close to what we do today.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (1 Apr 2011)

Pusser, you are correct, we probably all missed your point. I think (again) we were all reminiscing (as we typed). I think (generally) we are a little more educated..we know more. What that means is that we question everything-good and bad.
For the rest, I recently left a job proofreading  documentation (Oh-oh!). CPF does not exist; it  is Halifax Class, 280 does not exist; it is Iroquois Class. (Don`t get me started on calling the current IRO class- Tribals!!) We have `youngsters`reading these forums-lets get it right sailors!


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (1 Apr 2011)

LOL go ahead and correct Admiral Gardam, I have heard him use bother terms recently.


back to Pusser...the ESSM is a much more capable weapon then the Sea Sparrow we first got with CPF....erhm Halifax class.


----------



## Occam (2 Apr 2011)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I was told they were octuple but quad launchers make more sense, my point was you really can't compare ESSM with the original sea sparrow we bought for the Pre-Trump 280s.



Agreed.  I dug out some old photos that show the old quad launcher...these are probably from 1987.  The first three shots are of a RIM-7 launched from ATH, which was a successful telemetric kill on a drone.  The last photo was a slightly less successful missile shoot - there was a failure somewhere, and at the last moment the launcher appeared to lose power or hydraulics, drooped, and the Sea Sparrow never had a chance.  It left the rails aimed at the Atlantic Ocean, and I got one photo off before the missile hit the water a hundred yards or so from the ship and the splash soaked me and my 35mm camera.


----------



## Occam (2 Apr 2011)

And here's one for the OP - a Sovremenny-class destroyer (probably _Bezuprechnyy_) with an IRE (either HMCS Terra Nova or HMCS Gatineau) in the background.  They were shadowing us off the coast of Norway in 1988.


----------



## Infanteer (2 Apr 2011)

Cool thread guys.  Keep it coming.


----------



## FiredForEffect (2 Apr 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> And here's one for the OP - a Sovremenny-class destroyer (probably _Bezuprechnyy_) with an IRE (either HMCS Terra Nova or HMCS Gatineau) in the background.  They were shadowing us off the coast of Norway in 1988.



Wow, thanks! Very cool stuff and helpful. Pictures are great! And Neil I'm the proud owner of an autographed copy of_ The Admirals_, and I agree that's it's a great booK!


----------



## Jaydub (12 Apr 2011)

Everyone had ugly glasses and cheesy moustaches.

Were skinny leather ties part of the uniform back then?  >


----------



## Cloud Cover (12 Apr 2011)

For the West Coast it was all about the Portland Rose Festival, bragging about Battle Group Charlie, and RIMPAC, in that order. 

Russian ships, subs and planes aside, it was always interesting to be cruising along in the straights and watch a big US boomer heading out on patrol.  The US 688's were brand new, now they are being retired. 

We used to go down to San Clemente for NGS drills, it was something to see both turrets let loose in a night time broadside [to be quickly followed by some antiquated piece in the 3"70 breaking and taking the gun off line. 

We were still serving with Chiefs who were LS on the Bonaventure, and some of the Bonnie's spare parts were still in the kalamazoo for ordering.   We met officers who were Banshee pilots. The Tracker was still considered a platfrom.  I had a Chief who even served on a cruiser in the 50's.  They just couldnt let that old Navy go, and it seemed to really hold back the rest .... it seemed that the most visible policy initiative for the navy in the 1980 seemed to involve the DEU with the CPF just a minor sideshow. 

IMO there was too much booze flowing in the Navy back then. I remember 2 pitchers for 5$ at the fleet club [which was also brand new].   Nelles Block was a cross between a slum and a ghetto. Fun times!!!

Edit to say: i agree the Gulf War changed things a lot. They became serious because they suddenly became front and centre in the news.

And oh yeah, the Sea King needed replacing ....


----------



## Pat in Halifax (13 Apr 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> And here's one for the OP - a Sovremenny-class destroyer (probably _Bezuprechnyy_) with an IRE (either HMCS Terra Nova or HMCS Gatineau) in the background.  They were shadowing us off the coast of Norway in 1988.


The IRE would be GATINEAU as I have the same picture of the ship 'going the other way'! My wife is flying up to Ottawa for Easter and she had spent the winter scanning all my old Navy pics to disc. I will ask her to bring them with her and see if I can't get some on here. If I recall, my first trip was a FISHPAT and I have about 500 pics of nothing but iceburgs and dolphins-The novelty of seeing those two items in the North Atlantic soon wore thin!
Though I heard many stories about the Portland Rose Festival, I spent only one summer on the west coast ('83) sailing with YUKON. All I remember is being in Skagway Alaska and it never got dark! Hard to force yourself out of the tavern when it is still light...even if it was midnight!
As for the booze - Too true. Sometimes on the middle watch in the Engine Room, the only person awake was the lowly Ordinary Seaman doing Inside Rounds. Alongside, the rule was that POs were not permitted in the Engine Room/Boiler Room after lunch for obvious reasons! 
I think not only the Gulf War but the advent of more sophisticated weapons systems as well as more complex operating systems all around changed the social climate. Also, you have to remember that in the 70s and 80s, let's face it, as disgusting as it sounds now, drinking and driving was a socially acceptable practise.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (13 Apr 2011)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> They just couldnt let that old Navy go, and it seemed to really hold back the rest .... it seemed that the most visible policy initiative for the navy in the 1980 seemed to involve the DEU with the CPF just a minor sideshow.



Not quite: The introduction of women at sea (1981-1987)was also a biggie.



			
				Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Also, you have to remember that in the 70s and 80s, let's face it, as disgusting as it sounds now, drinking and driving was a socially acceptable practise.



Yep. Even driving ships. Knew an old captain who handled things better, even the ship, after you got a couple of scotch in him.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (20 Apr 2011)

FiredForEffect said:
			
		

> For those of you who served in the navy in 1980s, I'd be interested if you had any comments on a few things. I know there are a few of you around. I'm writing a research paper for the University of Victoria on the subject, and have been interviewing naval officers around the Victoria area as part of their military oral history program to this end. The information would be helpful to provide a wider perspective. Perspectives of Junior Officers in the 1980s would be particularly helpful.
> 
> A few guiding questions:
> 
> ...


Have you looked at:
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/


----------

