# Looking for current Marksmanship Badges regs



## Michael Dorosh (26 Sep 2005)

Of someone could post for me the dress regulations concerning the wearing of marksmanship badges on the DEU Jacket,  I would appreciate it.


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## big_castor (26 Sep 2005)

Army: marksmanship badges

Jacket, service dress

 Sewn centred on the lower left sleeve,12 cm (4-3/4 in.) from the bottom of the sleeve to the lowest points of the badge


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## Michael OLeary (26 Sep 2005)

A-AD-265-000/AG-001
CANADIAN FORCES DRESS INSTRUCTIONS



> 3. Army marksmen of the rank of sergeant and below who have qualified as a first class shot or marksman, based on annual classification results for the service rifle, are authorized to wear the appropriate marksmanship badge, embroidered in CF gold on rifle green melton cloth, on service dress jackets (see Figure 3-6-3 and Annex F).



3F-1
ANNEX F
AWARD AND MARKSMANSHIP INSIGNIA



> 5. Army: marksmanship
> badges
> 
> a. Jacket, service dress
> ...


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## Michael Dorosh (26 Sep 2005)

Vielen Dank, now the tricky one - what does one need to do to qualify?

Am i right in that the crown is for first class shot, and the badge without crown is for marksman?

What are the standards?


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## MPIKE (26 Sep 2005)

> Am i right in that the crown is for first class shot, and the badge without crown is for marksman?


according to section 6 Figure 3-6-3 it would be the other way around.

Curious as well, being an annual qualification is there a limited time period in which you are entitled to wear these?


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## Michael Dorosh (26 Sep 2005)

PIKER said:
			
		

> according to section 6 Figure 3-6-3 it would be the other way around.
> 
> Curious as well, being an annual qualification is there a limited time period in which you are entitled to wear these?



It used to be if you qualified in the last six months of 2004, you wore the badge til 31 Dec 2005 - I think.  It was set up so you wore it for a calendar year, and then needed to requalify. I remember our CSM (now RSM) slicing off qualification badges from those that failed to requalify in the proper time.

Sucked if you missed the one range weekend of the year.  Not that I had to worry.  I only shot PWT Level II due to my trade; I think you need to do the level III to qualify for the badge?


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## Glorified Ape (27 Sep 2005)

Can officers not wear marksmanship badges?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Sep 2005)

If we could find one that could shoot well enough....... 

[ Had to type it before someone else did] :-[


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## Glorified Ape (27 Sep 2005)

We can't all do the fun stuff day in and day out.... someone has to work.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Can officers not wear marksmanship badges?



No, including Warrant Officers.

I've seen them presented to officers, they just can't wear them on the uniform (!)


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## gcros (27 Sep 2005)

From the current Shoot To Live pam B-GL-382-001/PT-001 (found at the Army Electronic Library site) http://armyapp.dnd.ca/ael/

QUALIFICATION BADGES

19. All soldiers within the Army of the rank of Sergeant and below who achieves the marksman's score with their personal weapon on the PWT 2 are considered a marksman and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles with crown badge.

20. All soldiers within the Army of the rank of Sergeant and below who achieves a pass with their personal weapon on the PWT 2 but did not achieve the marksman score are considered a first class shot and are authorized to wear the crossed rifles badge.

For the C7A1, PWT2 HPS is 55, Marksman is 46, and Pass is 33.

There is also a note on the Night Supplement for PWT 2 which states as follows:

3. A marksman from the daylight tests must achieve a pass on the night supplement in order to retain the marksmanship qualification.

Note there are also Marksmanship standards for the C9 and 9mm pistol if this is considered your personal weapon.

The full link for the pam is:
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/B-GL-382/001/PT-001/B-GL-382-001-PT-001.pdf


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## Dissident (27 Sep 2005)

Shot pretty good last year and asked to wear it. Nothing ever came of it. I'll write a memo this year. 

Thanks for the info.


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## Sig_Des (27 Sep 2005)

Recce 9C has it perfectly...I love it when people go to the source!

clarification: You CAN qualify for badges with a PWT II, you don't need the three. (from my understanding the III is the same but has a rundown).  

The night shoot is usually fun...

I qualified marksman last fall, and am going on the range ex in a few weeks. should be fun


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## combat_medic (27 Sep 2005)

So, wait, if I just PASSED my PWT III this year, I can still wear crossed rifles? Aren't you required to pass? This seems a lot like a gimme to me. Then again, it's not like I was presented with the badge, so I doubt I can just sew one on my uniform anyway.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2005)

combat_medic said:
			
		

> So, wait, if I just PASSED my PWT III this year, I can still wear crossed rifles? Aren't you required to pass? This seems a lot like a gimme to me. Then again, it's not like I was presented with the badge, so I doubt I can just sew one on my uniform anyway.



If you qualified, sew it on, why does someone have to "present" it to you?


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## combat_medic (27 Sep 2005)

Well, if I'd qualified for a rank, I can't sew it on until I'd been promoted and presented with the rank.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2005)

combat_medic said:
			
		

> Well, if I'd qualified for a rank, I can't sew it on until I'd been promoted and presented with the rank.



What does that have to do with a marksmanship badge you qualified for?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Sep 2005)

Pretty self explanatory I would say.....after jump # 5 one is technically qualified but just for fun start wearing your wings before you are presented with them. :rage:


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Sep 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Pretty self explanatory I would say.....after jump # 5 one is technically qualified but just for fun start wearing your wings before you are presented with them. :rage:



Not the same with marksmanship or trades badges, is it?  

And technically, is there anything in the various regulations that say you "have to" be "presented" with new rank insignia or jump wings?  I think it is a courtesy extending both ways to wait to have them presented to you; in the case of a promotion, you're not informed until the presentation is made so it is a moot point.  Technically speaking, is there really a requirement for a "presentation"?


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## XtremeEuph (31 Oct 2008)

Yes I'm reallly stuck on this one, does anyone yet really know if You can sew them on your own if you made the passing level????? Or do you need some sort of presentation which i have never seen done.


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## George Wallace (31 Oct 2008)

You don't sew anything on, unless you have been presented them.  This brings to mind a member who was wearing 'White' Jump wings on his chest, until someone checked his docs and found that he had not even qualified Basic Para.  What surprised us the most though was that he was only told to take them down; no punishment.

You do not wear anything, until you have been presented it; be it crossed rifles, Jump Wings, rank, medals, or whatever.


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## Old Sweat (31 Oct 2008)

George,

In general yes, but when I was a NCM maaaany years ago, the results of annual classification published in routine orders with a note that the following personnel were authorized to wear whatever badge forthwith was sufficient to set us scurrying to the tailors.


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## MJP (31 Oct 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You don't sew anything on, unless you have been presented them.  This brings to mind a member who was wearing 'White' Jump wings on his chest, until someone checked his docs and found that he had not even qualified Basic Para.  What surprised us the most though was that he was only told to take them down; no punishment.
> 
> You do not wear anything, until you have been presented it; be it crossed rifles, Jump Wings, rank, medals, or whatever.



I think it more depends on your unit.  I can't recall anyone ever getting presented with their cross rifles on pde, usually a 2ic/sect comd would tell bloggins to make sure that it was on his uniform for the next time we wore deus.  Same thing for trade badges.  Really to me knowing what you should have on your DEUs and getting it shows the initiative of a professional soldier (medals, rank and the like not till presented).


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## George Wallace (31 Oct 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> I think it more depends on your unit.  I can't recall anyone ever getting presented with their cross rifles on pde, usually a 2ic/sect comd would tell bloggins to make sure that it was on his uniform for the next time we wore deus.  Same thing for trade badges.  Really to me knowing what you should have on your DEUs and getting it shows the initiative of a professional soldier (medals, rank and the like not till presented).



Really to me, in a case like this, someone showing "initiative" to sew any "Award" of any sort on their uniform without the proper authority is unacceptable and a sign of a "problem child".  One does not make their own decisions in these matters; they are told to do it.  If you are not presented or told to do it - DON'T!


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## MJP (1 Nov 2008)

Umm like I said usually we told our soldiers to sew it on but I have known soldiers to ...gasp......take their own initiative and ask what badge they should be wearing and then sew it on....all on their lonesome.  Wierd I know and probably a foreign concept to some waiting in the rafters to be told what to do all the time but lo and behold some "problem children" as others see them are really the type of people I like to see leading rather than the wait and get told to crowd.  Especially when it involves such a trivial matter as a marksmanship badge.  But what do I know.... ;D


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## danchapps (1 Nov 2008)

My take, if in doubt, ask your direct CoC. I myself went ahead and got my 3'squal badge sewn on, but then again, I had already graduated, with certificate in tow before I did that. As for wings or the marksmanship badges, if you are in doubt, ask your CoC. That way you seem keen, and smart enough not to do it on your own. Best of both worlds, no?


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## George Wallace (1 Nov 2008)

MJP

I have no problem with a person asking their C of C.  What I am saying is that unless a person has been presented their award (of any kind) by their C of C in any manner, be it a parade, routine orders, or verbally, they do not put up that award.  If a person uses the initiative to ask his/her C of C, then that is "good" initiative and a proper method to use.  If a person uses their own initiative, without doing any of the above, and just puts up an award, then they are a "problem child".


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## Greymatters (1 Nov 2008)

George brings up a valid point, and if you are in the reserves or in the combat arms trades I would follow his advice.

However (and there always seems to be one of these)...

You cant disagree with MJP's point.  While I was in the Infantry you never put up anything unless you got approval from someone higher, but this is not true for all trades across the CF.  In some other trades you are expected to put up badges on your own inititative once you gained a qualification, and you are looked at as being tardy or lazy if you have to be told to put up your latest qualification.

Once again, there is no single rule for whole CF...


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## George Wallace (1 Nov 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> ........, but this is not true for all trades across the CF.  In some other trades you are expected to put up badges on your own inititative once you gained a qualification, and you are looked at as being tardy or lazy if you have to be told to put up your latest qualification.



Once again, a person who has been Trade Qualified, and has a signed Crse Report (if this is what you are alluding to) is expected to go to the Tailor Shop and have their proper Trade Badge affixed.  Not quite the same as walking off the Range and saying I'll put up my Marksmanship Badge.

Now, one must not forget, that the Marksmanship Badge also comes off after one year, unless the Qualification is maintained.


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## pict (1 Nov 2008)

Hard to get something on your uniform that has not been given to you...  The marksmanship badge is tricky though because it has an expiration date.  On the other hand it takes some effort to check everyones credentials... I have only seen one person asked as to their credentials regarding marksmanship.


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## Old Sweat (1 Nov 2008)

Re the marksmanship badge, it was based on the results of the annual classification, which took place, wait for it, once a year. Now there could be some overlap and no one made a big deal if there was a period of lapsing that went unenforced.


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## MJP (1 Nov 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> MJP
> 
> I have no problem with a person asking their C of C.  What I am saying is that unless a person has been presented their award (of any kind) by their C of C in any manner, be it a parade, routine orders, or verbally, they do not put up that award.  If a person uses the initiative to ask his/her C of C, then that is "good" initiative and a proper method to use.  If a person uses their own initiative, without doing any of the above, and just puts up an award, then they are a "problem child".



Then I have misunderstood you in that respect my bad and apologies.

However I still feel that markmanship badges and the like (not that there are many other ones) are at best trivial items that one should put on their uniform when they qualified.  In my experience ( drawing from working with the 3 Bns out west) I have never seen anyone presented with their marksmanship badges.  I remember when I joined my unit and we were doing our annual PWT and informally the snr Cpls tooks it on themselves to tell the new guys what they had qualified and from that the implication to go get your own cross rifles on.


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## George Wallace (1 Nov 2008)

MJP

I think you and I are thinking along the same lines, but wording it differently.  In your last case, the Snr Cpls are passing on the word to their subordinants and peers.  Someone has passed on the regs or rules.


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## Greymatters (1 Nov 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> MJP
> 
> I think you and I are thinking along the same lines, but wording it differently.  In your last case, the Snr Cpls are passing on the word to their subordinants and peers.  Someone has passed on the regs or rules.



Now I see where you are coming from, and thats part of what I was thinking...


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