# OCdt Relinquishing Rank



## Flanker6 (23 Mar 2012)

This may be in the wrong forum and if so I will happily move to the appropriate forum, but I thought this would be a safe bet considering it isn't a CT or OT. 

I am in the 3rd year of the ROTP program, having my education subsidized. I have completed phases 1 and 2 and been in the upper echelon when considering competency during courses.

In November I was told that my degree of study (BSc - General Studies) was unacceptable for my MOSID (arty) (to boil my blood a bit, some of the courses that would have been acceptable were Poli Sci, Sociology, Criminology, Basket Weaving, etc). I was made aware of this because someone had drafted an arbitrary list, dictating what degrees were acceptable for each trade. I was also told that BSC-GS wasn't listed as an acceptable degree for ANY trade. I'm thinking that someone merely did not make an inclusive list - as my degree wasn't on the scale at all (1-unacceptable, 2-acceptable, 3-preferred). At that point I was given a set of choices:

1 - Release from the CF without financial commitment or obligatory service.
2 - Remain an OCdt and serve my oblig. service that I incurred during my period of subsidy (2mths service/1mth subsidy)
3 - Relinquish rank and serve as an NCM.
4 - Change degree of study to something accepted for my trade or otherwise, but even using credits I've obtained toward something like Chem or Phys I would be looking at a MIN of 2.5 yrs school. 

I chose #3, simply because I do not want to incur further service and I don't want to release. It is now nearing APRIL and I am yet to hear anything (I've turned in my memo[DEC], my COC is aware of my intentions). I have BMOQ and BMOQ(L) (formerly CAP) - which is the equivalent of PLQ from what I'm told. 

I understand an OCdt doesn't warrant a whole ton of attention, but are they trying to hold out until my courses are no longer valid and need to be repeated, or possibly just waiting until I release?

Any insight would be helpful. Thank you!

[edit] I should have added that in the mean time I am working at a Res Unit working full time (EWAT) to avoid being AWOL.


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## dapaterson (23 Mar 2012)

I am somewhat confused.  Not by your details, but by the asserion that a BSc - General is unaceptable for the artillery.  A review of CFAO 9-12 (ROTP) shows that as being eacceptable - the CFAO uses a 4 point scale from 1 (preferred) through 4 (Not Subsidized); the scan of the table shows either a 1 or 2 at the intersection of Arty and Science - General.

When you were told your program was unacceptable, was there a reference given that lists the acceptable programs of study?


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## Flanker6 (23 Mar 2012)

Thanks for the reply dapaterson, 
I was told in mid-November by my ULO that I had to make a decision because my degree wasn't kosher with his office. No reference was given but my ULO is a seasoned Capt that has always been very open and forward and downright helpful through my ~3 years with him.
[edit] damn typo.


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## dapaterson (23 Mar 2012)

Flanker6 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replay dapaterson,
> I was told in mid-November by my ULO that I had to make a decision because my degree wasn't kosher with his office. No reference was given but my ULO is a seasoned Capt that has always been very open and forward and downright helpful through my ~3 years with him.



I would approach the ULO and ask for the reference, since your progam of study is listed as acceptable under CFAO 9-12.  It would not be the first time that policies contradicted each other.


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## MJP (23 Mar 2012)

Flanker6 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply dapaterson,
> I was told in mid-November by my ULO that I had to make a decision because my degree wasn't kosher with his office. No reference was given but my ULO is a seasoned Capt that has always been very open and forward and downright helpful through my ~3 years with him.
> [edit] damn typo.



In addition to what Dapa has added I am concerned that it came from your ULO.  Anything regarding your education comes from your SEM including go/nogo decisions for continued funding.  The info might flow through your ULO but they don't make decisions of that magnitude regardless of their experience.


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## blacktriangle (23 Mar 2012)

I really hope the ULO has something wrong. If it's true...what were they thinking when they accepted you? The CF approved YOU for the entry plan. It's not like you were sneaking behind their back. 

If it's a requirement that's recently changed, I don't see why they couldn't grandfather those currently in the system like you. Someone please tell me there is a misunderstanding here...


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## cupper (23 Mar 2012)

I agree. Why the F would they let this go for 3 years without some indication that it was at issue.

And how would a general BSc not be applicable for an Arty O?

Someone needs to give their head a shake. :facepalm:


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## Flanker6 (24 Mar 2012)

I agree with the general sentiment here fellas, and I will shoot an email out to my ULO when I return to work on Monday. I think I may be more comfortable leading troops at a smaller scale (Sect-level), and because of this I don't think I was as critical of the sodomy I had been victim of at the hands of the CF. Thanks for the insight all of you that have replied and I will update this when/if I hear back from my ULO.


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## brihard (24 Mar 2012)

Flanker6 said:
			
		

> I think I may be more comfortable leading troops at a smaller scale (Sect-level),



Recognize that notwithstanding any equivalency that might exist between CAP / PLQ (I don't know how it carries across in reverse), it would be some years before you found yourself promoted through the NCM stream to command a section/det...


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## Flanker6 (24 Mar 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Recognize that notwithstanding any equivalency that might exist between CAP / PLQ (I don't know how it carries across in reverse), it would be some years before you found yourself promoted through the NCM stream to command a section/det...


I am more than aware of the time frame I would be looking at before I was even 2IC of a sect, but that is where I would like to end up. I apologize if there were any perceived feelings of entitlement.


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## brihard (24 Mar 2012)

Flanker6 said:
			
		

> I am more than aware of the time frame I would be looking at before I was even 2IC of a sect, but that is where I would like to end up. I apologize if there were any perceived feelings of entitlement.



Nope, that didn't come across- no worries there. So long as you're aware of how very different coming up in the ranks is.


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## bkotj (28 Mar 2012)

Your degree is not acceptable for Artillery but acceptable for the following trades from the 'Officer Degree - Entry Standards Summary' matrix I am staring at:

Ideal (1) - Armoured, Infantry Pilot, 
Acceptable (2) - Engineer, EME, Intelligence, Sigs
Any Acceptable Degree (3) - AEC, MARS, ACSO, LOG
Exceptional Basis Red Occ  (4) - MP

My reccomendation would be to change trade to fit your degree or do more school.  Your at a civilian university (RMC does not offer 3 yr gen degrees to ROTP's) so believe me you have having a good go compared to RMC cadets. 

 Activating redress might be in order to help get the trade change you want.  

Going NCM might seem like a quick out that allows you to have a good career, but you are severly limiting your earning potential considering you have already been accpeeted as an officer.  Just look at the pay tables and forecast when you will hit Captain (pretty quick) or Warrant Offiicer (13-20 years).  It was one of the main reasons as a NCM I went Officer.


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2012)

bkotj:  What matrix are you looking at?  The CFAO (still in force) lists the degree as acceptable in its matrix, so it seems that two parts of NDHQ aren't talking to each other.


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## aesop081 (28 Mar 2012)

bkotj said:
			
		

> but you are severly limiting your earning potential considering you have already been accpeeted as an officer.



Some people do work for reasons other than money.


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## ballz (28 Mar 2012)

Just want to follow this very peculiar situation...

To the OP, I would definitely be asking for more from the ULO, as mentioned, this should have came from your SEM.


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## Disenchantedsailor (28 Mar 2012)

Allow me to use some experience to weigh in on this one.  Being a Gunner Officer and all.  3 of my friends (all gunners) have various science like degrees, and are all Gunners like I said. One in fact is a Math guy, another is BSc (agricultural sciences) we also have English majors, and History types.  I am sensing something foul is afoot,  that or the two towers are having a marital spat again.


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2012)

Poking through the DPGR intranet site, I foun the following lists of programs of study for Artillery - Reg F.


Ideal:

Bachelor of Engineering: Engineering and Management

Bachelor of Science: Geomatic/Surveying and Imagery

Bachelor of Arts: International Studies, Languages, 
Military and Strategic Studies


Acceptable:

Bachelor of Engineering:
Aeronautical,
Aerospace, 
Chemical, 
Civil, 
Computer,
Electrical, 
Engineering Physics, Environmental, 
Geological, 
Industrial, 
Management, 
Materials, 
Mechanical, 
Metallurgical, 
Nuclear, 
Physical, 
Software,
Systems

Bachelor Science:
Applied Sciences, Biochemistry,
Biology, 
Chemistry, 
Computer, 
Earth Observational, Environmental, 
Geography, 
Geology, 
Information Systems, Information Technology, Math and Physics, Math/Applied Math, Physics, 
Space Sciences

Bachelor of Arts:
Accounting, 
Administration, 
Anthropology, 
Applied Military Psychology, 
Asian Studies, 
Business Administration, Canadian Studies, Commerce, 
Conflict Studies, 
Criminal Justice, Criminology, 
East Asiatic Studies, Emergency/Crisis and Disaster Management,   Economics, 
Education, 
English, 
Finance, 
French, 
Human Resources Management, 
History, 
Industrial Relations, 
Justice Sciences, Journalism, 
Law, 
Police Sciences, 
Political Science, Psychology, 
Public Administration,  Sociology


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## ballz (28 Mar 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Poking through the DPGR intranet site, I foun the following lists of programs of study for Artillery - Reg F.
> 
> 
> Ideal:
> ...



Somehow I get the feeling that someone is just looking at this list waaaay too literally. When you consider that Artillery/Infantry/Armour Officer are said to accept "any" Bachelor's degree, but you look at that list which is *extremely* short considering the number of degree programs available in Canada... it seems to me that someone either tried to make a list including every single degree program and failed at including them all by a long shot...

I mean if you want to get really literal, going by that list, anybody with a Bachelor's of Business Administration in any form isn't accepted. Sorry, but pretty much only at RMC is it "BA (Business Administration)" and it's quite a different from from "BBA (insert general or concentration here)." And it's laughable to consider Accounting an art, it's as black and white as mathematics.

EDIT: Also, I think if they had meant to change it from "any degree" to these specific ones... they would have definitely grandfathered it. But it's true about common sense not being all that common...


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2012)

As someone who may well be in a place to hear artillery overhead, I'd much rather see Arty officers with a science background (ie they can do math) than a language background (ie they can tell me all about Tennyson's poetry but that whole "carry the one" thing gets them confused).


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## cupper (28 Mar 2012)

In order for it to be acceptable to enter Combat Arms with an English degree you need to specialize in Kipling. ;D


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## Pusser (29 Mar 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> As someone who may well be in a place to hear artillery overhead, I'd much rather see Arty officers with a science background (ie they can do math) than a language background (ie they can tell me all about Tennyson's poetry but that whole "carry the one" thing gets them confused).



But surely knowing that the cannon to the right of them, the cannon to the left of them and the cannon in front of them volley and thunder is good for an artillery officer?  Although it makes for a bad day for a cavalry officer...


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## dapaterson (29 Mar 2012)

I fear I may have awoken the Kraken with that last comment...


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## Pusser (29 Mar 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I fear I may have awoken the Kraken with that last comment...



Indeed, from the thunders of the upper deep!


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## Paladium (3 Apr 2012)

Well one thing I would look at is your original message and see what it said back then was the appropriate degree you should have been taking at university.

Secondly, the Entry Standards for your occupation are always changing and they have been pushing more stringent requirements in the last year or so - but what you need  to know is what the entry standards were when you joined.  My best guess is that an acceptable degree at that time was "any" and as such you should be grandfathered. if they have since made changes


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## Corey020 (4 Apr 2012)

The officer corps no longer accepts General Degrees.  This has been in affect for a number of years now, including when you were accepted.  I worked at RMC from 09-10 and dealt with this issue on a few occasions with cadets that only earned enough credits for a General Degree. Before being commissioned they would have to obtain their full degree or be accept into the COTP.  Getting accepted into that was exceptionally rare.

It is quite possible that someone dropped the ball along the way, since you should have been provided all of this information at the start of your program.  That said, my role at RMC did not bring me into contact with any students not at RMC, so I am unaware of the process.

//

As for your question oitself quisling your rank, in some cases it took a couple of years for the process to run its course.  Several months was the norm.  They are not purposefully trying to mess with you, it's just that the offices responsible for reviewing your file will be the same ones taking care of all component/MOSID transfers, and they do not have enough people for the amount of work.

You will just have to be patient.


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## yoman (4 Apr 2012)

Corey020 said:
			
		

> The officer corps no longer accepts General Degrees.  This has been in affect for a number of years now, including when you were accepted.  I worked at RMC from 09-10 and dealt with this issue on a few occasions with cadets that only earned enough credits for a General Degree. Before being commissioned they would have to obtain their full degree or be accept into the COTP.  Getting accepted into that was exceptionally rare.



I know a few people who have General degree's are were commissioned while at RMC so I don't think what you are saying is accurate. In fact, the two preferred degree's for CEOTP's are the 30 credit degree's through RMC (BMAS and General BA). 

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5002-6-eng.asp


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## Corey020 (5 Apr 2012)

yoman said:
			
		

> I know a few people who have General degree's are were commissioned while at RMC so I don't think what you are saying is accurate. In fact, the two preferred degree's for CEOTP's are the 30 credit degree's through RMC (BMAS and General BA).
> 
> http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5002-6-eng.asp



You're right.  The four year degree programs are required to be granted the RMC post nominal now.  When I went through, the three year programs were accepted.  This time around though, the only way to graduate from RMC ROTP was with a four year degree.  If a trade accepts 3 year degrees a member could have a Gen Degree granted, if the Academic side of the house was willing to grant it.  That said, if the trade does not accept the three year degree program then the member ends up with the options given to the OP.

Typically at RMC the only time people try for the Gen Degrees is when they fail courses and run out of options.  Then and only then are ROTP cadets allowed to be granted a Gen Deg.  It really surprises me that a Civ U candidate was not told ahead of time what degrees were acceptable to their MOSID. Like I said, I was not involved in that process, but I would have thought that their entire program should have been approved before they started.

I shouldn't have brought up CEOTP. In general, only one person was accepted a year, and it was for MARS  or Armrd at the time.  Severely short MOSIDs.  However, no matter what the preferred programs are, if the trade does not accept them, the member must get the appropriate degree (Aerospace Eng Officer and BA do not go together).  In this particular case, neither appears to be on the list of preferred/acceptable degrees.

The OP should look into why he wasn't told his degree program was unacceptable to begin with.


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## dapaterson (5 Apr 2012)

This sounds suspiciously like RMC making things up as they go along.

Unless and until the CFAO is amended, the original poster has a valid CF Order in force that states that their degree program is acceptable for their military occupation.  If staff have been too lazy to keep policy up to date that is not the fault of the poster.


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## bridges (5 Apr 2012)

Just based on what's been written in this thread, it seems that the issue is not the program of study, but that it's a 3-year degree vs. a 4-year degree.   

And it's definitely strange that it's only at this advanced stage in his studies that Flanker6 is being told his degree isn't enough.  Something irregular going on here.  rly:     IMO it may be worth getting a definitive ruling from CMP, before making any irreversible career decisions.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Apr 2012)

Many NCMs transfer to the officer ranks, I was wondering is there a stigma placed on officers who become NCMs?


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## ballz (5 Apr 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> This sounds suspiciously like RMC making things up as they go along.
> 
> Unless and until the CFAO is amended, the original poster has a valid CF Order in force that states that their degree program is acceptable for their military occupation.



That's the way I see it too. When you sign up for ROTP, they know what program you are doing and what trade you are doing before you ever get started. And if you want to change programs, you need permission to do so. So, unless the poster is leaving out a detail of changing programs without permission, he's had the valid CF Order to do a BSc (General) for Artillery (it was acceptable 3 yrs ago I'm prety sure) from the get go.


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## George Wallace (5 Apr 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Many NCMs transfer to the officer ranks, I was wondering is there a stigma placed on officers who become NCMs?



It depends on the personalities involved.  Sometimes there is; sometimes there isn't.


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## SOES_vet (17 Apr 2012)

So Flanker,

Any updates or resolution? Sounds like a pretty raw deal, so I hope something worked out


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## Flanker6 (17 Apr 2012)

Good day all, 

This thread certainly has generated some traffic. I appreciate the empathy and the insight from all of you.

I am disheartened to learn that this process has taken as long as a couple years for certain individuals, but I understand the circumstances.

The reference given was inside CFAO 9-12. I can't open this, as of 29 Feb 12 CFAOs are no longer available via the internet. I will skim this from the DIN if I am able to find it when I get back to the unit I'm employed at. 

I am currently "fornicating with the pooch" while I'm employed locally, with occasional tasks (just completed the Certification & Accreditation process for this unit). I am compiling the internal interview components (supervisor answering questions about work ethic, motivation, etc) and when I submit that I will be booked with my ASU's PSO. I will keep all of you informed if it seems like the right thing to do. 

Again, thanks for the consideration and the time that any of you put into replying to me.


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## LineJumper (18 Apr 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It depends on the personalities involved.  Sometimes there is; sometimes there isn't.



Amen


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## donaldk (8 May 2012)

Working link for the CFAO web archive below:

http://web.archive.org/web/20081206032330/http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/toc_e.asp

Last year ADM (FINCS) actually put up the CFAOs again in the new CLF 2.0 format; to come around and knock it back down into the abyss  :facepalm:.  My guess someone was employed to maintain it and then the position got cut  :


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