# A answer to Robert Scott



## mlabonte (4 Jan 2003)

In Saint-Jean, for the prep year, the youngest are 16 ( like I was when I came hear).  But now, we are all 17 and up.  My advice for you.. is get your highschool diploma and then join the army, if you don‘t like it, well at least you have something to work with...

Good luck and make the good choice


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## Wilson601 (4 Jan 2003)

How did you get a diploma at 16?

Is the prep year for people who may not have the minimum % to get inot RMC straight off? but still want to be an officer? I have 60% average in high school right now, I told the recruiter i wanted to go to RMC and he laughed at me.  :skull:


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## MethylSilane (4 Jan 2003)

I don‘t mean to sound discouraging, but you should do what you can to get your average up.  With a 60% you may find it difficult to get into practically any university.

Getting into RMC (or again, any post-secondary institution) is a laudable goal, but you really have to work hard to get the marks to get there.


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## Wilson601 (4 Jan 2003)

I understand. I have loads of this ‘Military Potential‘ they rave about i just suck my own ***  in school. Not becuase i‘m an idiot or anything, i just hate school, it doesn‘t interest me. I hate it because i know exactly what i‘m doing with my life and i feel as though i‘m wasting my time there because i‘m a memo away from the Regs. I don‘t care what the degree i take is in because the Army doesn‘t care, they just want you to have a ‘degree‘.

I‘m sure i would take my education much more seriously if i‘m paying for it, or if they(DND) were paying me to recieve it.  :skull:


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## MethylSilane (4 Jan 2003)

Well, I figured it was something like that.  Just know that nobody will pay much mind to your goals if you don‘t put your head down, and show them that you can flex enough brain to do what you say you‘re going to do.

You may want to be doing something other than school, which I understand completely, but working hard in school isn‘t unlike training hard to stay in shape.  

You want to be an officer, and that‘s fine.  But this is a hurdle that so far seems to be standing in your way.    What you want to do doesn‘t mean a hill of beans unless you work hard to get over every hurdle that crosses your path.

I‘m sure you can do it, since you seem bright enough.  Sure, school can suck, but a lot of stuff we all have to do in life sucks.  It‘s just another turn in the path to your stated goal.

Good luck.


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## Wilson601 (4 Jan 2003)

Hmm. well put forward. What would you do if a student is  half way through his last year of high school and nothing short of a miracle could bring his marks up high enough to get accept to a post-secondary institution? I WANT to take the prepatory year would this be an option for an under acheiver?


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## MethylSilane (4 Jan 2003)

For students outside of Quebec, that seems to be the reason you‘d attend the preparatory year first.  The specific course pre-requisites for that are on  RMC‘s website.  No doubt, you‘d have to show some level of academic competence, so you have a few months to prove yourself.

As for the rest of this year, look at this as part of your training, keep your head down and work as hard as you can.  No matter how much you hate it, remember that although DND doesn‘t run your High School, this IS part of becoming an officer.


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## NormR (6 Jan 2003)

I agree with Marie on this one... 
The thing with school, whether you like it or not, is the fact that to get anywhere... AND I MEAN ANYWHERE ..... is you need to get the grades... and you need that diploma.

Without that piece of paper, The diploma for completion of Grade 12...  you will find that just about any door to higher education will close... even the equivalency certificate(ONT.) does not always cut the mustard.. 

So if you want something as bad as entry into RMC, bear down and earn that diploma.
It becomes a war, an internal one, but if you have the guts, the perseverance to see it through then the doors to your goals will open....
My 2 cents worth, its a funny thing, without the Diploma, a Pvt (NCM) is something the CF will not even let you attempt.


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## BestOfTheBest (6 Jan 2003)

I really hate to say this but getting into RMC is even harder then other really good universites.
They dont only just look for marks, they look for everything.
Its like the Best Of The Best people there
I am not saying no one gets accpeted there or your not gonna get acpted. I am just saying try to make your goal realistic to the way you are.
Like look at me man i am in grade 11 and i did my app test last october and guess what I failed it why because i suck at math, like i mean i really suck at math and i falied that math part.
but hey they told me take a math course at school and come back to them and show them that i took a math course and they would let me write the test.
I am taking a math course now and i am gonna get my butt over there right after i am done that course and take that test and pass it.
Just keep trying but make your goals realistic
i hope u know what i mean
and hey do u really wanna be an officer that bad?
why dont you like go to colloge or something and like get in as a non-commised
that what i am doing


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## Wilson601 (7 Jan 2003)

My course officer on SQ graduated from RMC ..he said ti was good back int he day but now it ‘pumps out the pussys‘ so to speak. He said that the majority of the people there barely passed the 8 week basic. "They‘re weak int he field, but their graduates could sit in an office and pump out math problems all day" i believe was his exact quote. I‘m kind of the opposite end of the spectrum, or so i like to believe. I just don‘t think that its absolutly everything everyone praises it for. I‘m a realist i‘m afraid.  :skull:


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## Jarnhamar (7 Jan 2003)

Ahh, the ol‘ "back in the day" line eh? My course was brutally hard but those that came after are easy.  Can you imagine what it would have been like in the 60‘s? or even ww2? Battle school must have been insane. They use live ammunition on each other during war games. Fall out of a ruck march and your shot   

Im not sure if it was on this site or another but someone had a good line.
(went something like)
Two men walked into the newly established marine corps recruiting center, they were to be the first enlisted marines. The first marine walked out and sat on a bench. A few minutes later the second marine walked out and sat beside the first guy and said "wow that was hard huh". The first guy lights up a cigarette and says "Son, let me tell you about the old days"


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## Wilson601 (7 Jan 2003)

LoL thats a pretty good one, Marines are weak. hehe 

I can see it being really tough around korea to-late-70s after that they started letting women in and puttin in policy bla bla, you know the drill.

But in regards to RMC, i‘m not sure what to expect. I‘m trying to get my mother to get her Band Card (a thing natives get) because she‘s like 1/64 th native or some $h!t. With that little piece of paper I can get in, fail everything and still graduate from RMC. jokin of course (i live right next door the infamous Burnt Church indian reserve)  
they provide us with a little comic relief from time to time.  :skull:


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## typhoon85 (8 Jan 2003)

Carl G.

you said Marines are weak????

Have u been to Marine Recruit Depot Parris Island or there depot in San Diago and trained with them?

I hope u know that the Marines Basic Training course is one of the harder basic training course in the world.


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## muskrat89 (8 Jan 2003)

A comment, for what it‘s worth. Around 1990ish, a Gunner in my Unit left to join the Marine Corps. He returned around 4 years later, and re-joined the Unit. Bull-puckey Hoorah stuff aside, he thought our Unit was more professional and better trained....maybe he was just suckin up to me..


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## portcullisguy (8 Jan 2003)

Carl G. don‘t dispair.

Yes, you should bring your average up if you want to achieve your goals later in life.

Look at the positive side, you are close to finishing high school period, and that says a lot.

I am 28, a full-time federal government employee with a respectable job as a Customs Inspector, taking correspondence university courses.  I am slowly but surely achieving my goals in life.  I had my first $60,000 year, in 2002.  I have a car, and a house, and a cool girlfriend.

I dropped out of high school at 16, and didn‘t even look at updating my skills until I was about 20 or 21, when I started working as a security guard.  When I came to customs, I realized I was lucky to get the job to begin with (they had an education clause that was loose, "high school or public service approved equivalent of education and related work experience").  First thing I did was get my GED (high school equivalency).  I scored very high marks in that exam.  From that I was able to enrol in University as a correspondence student part-time, and that is what I am working on right now.

Life is not lost because I didn‘t finish high school.

That said, do as well as you can, because it will honestly make things easier for you later in life.  Having to wait to get into to university until you are considered a mature student will suck if what you want it is to go in right away.  You will be climbing uphill all the way.

I now have a lot of certificates and the like on my wall, and am planning to put more there.  But I will be honest with you, the one I am most proud of isn‘t my GED, or my customs recruit courses, or any of the skills certifications I have taken.  I am most proud of my Civilian Citation, given to me by the Toronto Police.  More than anything, I think it speaks volumes about my character, to people who don‘t know me.


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## Wilson601 (8 Jan 2003)

The Marines thing was just a crack in response to the previous post. I know a Marine LCpl (who was in for 4 years i believe) he was a great guy and everything.. But, he was weak.

I‘m Aware that its unfair to sterotype all marines as being weak. Even thier Special forces are weak for christsakes. I went to N.C USA to train with the SF in FIBUA for 10 days. 
In that 10 days we did a 13 klik ruckmarch, just to keep sharp (there was only a platoon of us) and they thought we were Canadian Special Operations Forces. They $h!t the bed when we changed out of our bushcaps into berets, I can honestly say they thought a platoon of reservists from atlantic canada were special operations force. It was at that point that I had succumb to the realization that Americans versus Canadians was CLEARLY a matter of quantity Vs. Quality.  :skull:


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## Jarnhamar (8 Jan 2003)

By marine special forces do you mean the Marine Force Recon soldiers?


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## mlabonte (8 Jan 2003)

> Not becuase i‘m an idiot or anything, i just hate school, it doesn‘t interest me.


S. Wilson

If you hate school, don‘t go to RMC, because even if your the best athlete, billingual and very good in the military....if you don‘t pass, your out.  NO EXCEPTION MADE.  

Don‘t stress with school, try to do your best and that‘s what matters.  I did not have the best average at school, but I was very implicated in the school, sports and working a lot of hours at work, ...I got accepted. I am not a nerd, but the government is paying for my education, and there is a career that is waiting for me when I graduate...I HAVE TO STUDY because i don‘t want to lose this chance.    

There are a lot of very good options and jobs in the army and being a NCM, is AS GOOD AS AN OFFICER.And don‘t let anybody tell you that your not good enough, certainly not a recruiter...
Don‘t forget, RMC is not the only option is you want to go in the army, don‘t be fooled with ‘the free education thing‘ it‘s more than that   

Hope you make the good choice!

Marie


p.s In anwser to your question, I got my highschool diploma when I was 16 because I am from Québec, and it is different here... we have to take Cégep and the prep year is for that purpose.  Hope it anwsered you question..


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## Wilson601 (11 Jan 2003)

But NCO isn‘t as good as officer. As an officer theres little things, people look up to you more, little things like salutes and having fireplaces in your PMQ‘s. 

I should have said, i hate high school. Its too juvenile and too routine for me, its making me sick. I work alot of hours, i‘m active in my community and in my school aswell, i just have really f*ckin $hitty marks.  :skull:


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Jan 2003)

> But NCO isn‘t as good as officer. As an officer theres little things, people look up to you more, little things like salutes and having fireplaces in your PMQ‘s.


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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Jan 2003)

BUT SERIOUSLY - there are very, very few junior officers who get as much respect as a competent career warrant officer.  I shouldn‘t make fun because you have no way of knowing this, but kid, you have a lot to learn about the world.

My best friend just commissioned after 15 years as a corporal in both the reserves and the Regular Force (infantry and supply tech).  His perspective on junior officers vs. career NCOs is not a unique one, but he could probably assure you that a junior subaltern is really only a private with more responsibilities.  Certainly no one looks up to them, and I kind of get the impression there is nothing lower in the officer‘s mess than a new subaltern.  I actually think private soldiers get treated better their first year or two than most newly commissioned officers.

There are many officers I respect, and most of the junior officers I‘ve met in my own unit are pretty good guys and good soldiers - but the backbone of the regiment is still the senior NCOs, and nobody gets "looked up to" more than them.


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## Jungle (11 Jan 2003)

CarlG, ask any youg Infantry Platoon cmder who he looks up to... his PL WO. If he doesn‘t, he will end up being sidetracked by the troops, and the C of C. The most important group in the Army is the SNR NCOs. You need proof ? we regularly take over their position (act as Pl cmder AND PL WO), they NEVER take over ours (they ALWAYS appoint a Sgt to take over the 2ic‘s job).


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## Dehaggerty88 (11 Jan 2003)

I normally watch and listen only, but I felt the need to weigh in on this one.
  While most of the "higher ups" (snr nco‘s included) like to think that their rank affords them a position of respect it just isn‘t so.
  Here‘s a newsflash; the troops aren‘t retards(most of them).We know who to afford respect to and who‘s a bag of sh#t. Rank is inconsequential. Respect is something that‘s earned between individuals and not given simply because anyone has more rank. I can salute any pointyhead(read officer) and it doesn‘t mean a damn thing about what I think of him.I just don‘t need to listen to him whine about paying compliments.
  As to what rank is the most important? If it wasn‘t for the pte/cpl‘s there would be no discussion. 
  By the way, rank is supposed to be about taking care of your subordinates, not feeding anyones fragile ego.
  I‘ll sum the %$# up now. Wearing rank is all about earning the respect of your followers thereby gaining their trust so as they will follow you.   Anyone foolish enough to think that they have a bunch of sheep following them are surely underestimating the capabilities and initiative of their own troops.


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## muskrat89 (11 Jan 2003)

groundpounder - buried in your rantings and profanities were the vaguest grains of reason - speaking of respect, you had more from me, when you were "watching and listening"....


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## Wilson601 (11 Jan 2003)

I am well aware that you or any other NCM may pay compliments to an officer. Its differnt when you mean it. When you Actually respect the individual your saluting. I don‘t want to be an Officer because I a on power trip and want respect becuase my parents never gave me any. I‘m a natural born leader and i think that is best applied in a leadership posistion.  :skull:


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## Wilson601 (11 Jan 2003)

Don‘t ever call me "Kid".  :skull:


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## Jarnhamar (11 Jan 2003)

You sounded like a kid in your post guy.
Speaking of leadership look at it this way. A company commander gives orders to 3 platoon commanders. A platoon commander gives orders to 3 section commanders. A section commander gives orders and has to take care of 7 or 8 soldiers. He has to physically look after twice as many people as an officer.

It reminds me of a conversation with a political science student. She saw me not going through to be an officer as me "settling" for a lesser rank, for not wanting responsibility or or to progress in my carreer.  Officers don‘t "get to" kick down doors in fibua, investigate a dark cave, get their nose almost broke when the riot shield their holding gets kicked or get in a fist fight with a drunk beligerant. It depends what what you want out of the army.
Don‘t live in a PMQ either, get a house    :blotto:


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## BestOfTheBest (11 Jan 2003)

Experenced KID!
funny
i like that


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Jan 2003)

Carl G., what makes you think only officers adopt "leadership positions".  Every soldier in the Army is a leader - even the private with six months experience, because he is expected to maintain the standards set for him by the Army, his Regiment, and his NCOs and officers.  When a private comes to the unit with only three months experience, he pretty much follows the lead of the guy with six months experience.  Believe it or not, that‘s leadership, and it isn‘t a trait confined to, or expected only from, the commissioned officers.

Leadership isn‘t about barking orders; in fact, the best leaders I‘ve known in the Army never felt the need to raise their voice, curse in public, or belittle anyone.  They had the respect of the men because the respect flowed both ways.  And not so coincidentally, these "best leaders" I refer to were mostly NCOs, or former NCOs who had commissioned.

My regular force friend tells me about the RMC  and University weenies they had at Gagetown learning to be officers.  Unfortunately for them, their life skills and experience was quite sadly lacking, and they apparently feel - like you do - that being an officer makes them superior.  They will find out - as you will - that once with their unit, if they don‘t have the basic abilities of the soldiers they are leading, they will not have any respect - the days of buying privilege are happily over.  This is why the best officers are often ones who served a couple of years in the ranks first.  

I would lose the fantasies about being saluted if I were you, surely to God there are more important things to being in the Forces.  The really good officers I know hate being saluted and grimace every time someone does it.  They‘re also the kind I would follow without them demanding it of me.


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## Wilson601 (14 Jan 2003)

I would believe that a competent person would be able to take control of a $hit situation, look out for his people AND get the job done to the best of his ability is what i personally would percieve as being leadership. 

I‘m not sure i like the position of alot of things in the army. I Believe things could be a ****  of alot better. Now, bearing in mind that hindsight is alwasy 20/20, I believe that i could have changed the outcomes of certain situations (somalia, Rwanda) that DID not have to happen, and i think if i was in charge, it would not have.  We in the CF have some excellent people upstairs but not nearly enough.

  Many of those brass people don‘t know what its like for pte.Bloggins, who‘s @ss is in the grass everyday, where hes cold and wet and hungry, but soldiers on. I‘d like to take that experiance, bring it to the table, and hopefully make life that much easyer for everyone ; but espcially the troops. I want to be an officer for those troops who don‘t have a good one.  :skull:


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## Jungle (14 Jan 2003)

That is all very nice there groundpounder and CarlG, but as a leader, the hardest thing is to find a balance between what the chain of command orders and what the troops want. Now remember that Snr NCOs all have been through the ranks, and officers have not. So most NCOs remember what it was like as a trooper, but age and experience put a new perspective on things. At the end of the day, you can either leave or suck it up and learn from other‘s mistakes. As you go up in rank, try not to do the same mistakes...


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## Gunner (14 Jan 2003)

> i could have changed the outcomes of certain situations (somalia, Rwanda)


Carl G.  As the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.  Perhaps when you mature and if and when you rise in rank, you may have an  opportunity to make a decision.  You will then alolow  many armchair generals to second guess what you should and shouldn‘t have done.

Secondly, all "army brass" start out at the bottom of the totem pole with their ***  in hte grass, just like everyone else.


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## RCA (15 Jan 2003)

And to clear up another misconception. You are not saluting the person, you are saluting the Queen‘s commission. And whether an officer likes it or not, he has a legal obligation to return the salute.

 As for leadership, the only true NCMs who command (in the purest form, and of course there are exceptions to every rule) are the ones at the lowest level. ie section commander. SNCOs and WOs don‘t command, but assist his commander (officer) in leading his unit, be it platoon, Battery, Regiment etc. We, as NCOs have an obligation to assist and advise officers to the best of our abilites. This is whether he/she is a "pointyhead" or not. As long as it is legal, we follow. 

Respect is an entirely different kettle of fish. It is earned. However, it has no bearing on the orders you receive and carry out. You‘re just lucky to get an officer or NCO that you respect.

 And lastly, comparing officers and NCOs is like comparing apples and oranges. Each is different and has a different role and responsibilty. And I can name quite a few officers who I respect and are good at what they do, and have never been in the ranks.

 What it comes down to, is the type of person you are, the examples that are set for you, and the training you receive. These are the basics of becoming good at your job, and in turn earning respect, both up and down.


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## RCA (15 Jan 2003)

And to clear up another misconception. You are not saluting the person, you are saluting the Queen‘s commission. And whether an officer likes it or not, he has a legal obligation to return the salute.

 As for leadership, the only true NCMs who command (in the purest form, and of course there are exceptions to every rule) are the ones at the lowest level. ie section commander. SNCOs and WOs don‘t command, but assist his commander (officer) in leading his unit, be it platoon, Battery, Regiment etc. We, as NCOs have an obligation to assist and advise officers to the best of our abilites. This is whether he/she is a "pointyhead" or not. As long as it is legal, we follow. 

Respect is an entirely different kettle of fish. It is earned. However, it has no bearing on the orders you receive and carry out. You‘re just lucky to get an officer or NCO that you respect.

 And lastly, comparing officers and NCOs is like comparing apples and oranges. Each is different and has a different role and responsibilty. And I can name quite a few officers who I respect and are good at what they do, and have never been in the ranks.

 What it comes down to, is the type of person you are, the examples that are set for you, and the training you receive. These are the basics of becoming good at your job, and in turn earning respect, both up and down.


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## 2Lt_Martin (15 Jan 2003)

RCA -- Well said. To the newer folks in this forum these are the words of experience, remember them.

I am junior officer in a reserve unit, I have been with the unit almost three years now and I am just starting to truly earn the trust and respect of the troops in my platoon(Note: I have only been a Platoon Commander for a few months). My boss is a CPO2, and I could not ask for a better person to "show me the way" sort of speak. 

As for changing the outcomes of Rwanda and Somlia I truly doubt that you could have done this. If you want some insight on Somolia hop over to  Commando.org and read the Journals about Somolia from the perspective of someone who was there. 

Something else to remember if you go officer; one of the first words in "officer" is "office" which is where you spend a lot of time before you are out running around getting saluted etc...  :blotto:  

My two cents


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## Pikache (15 Jan 2003)

> I would lose the fantasies about being saluted if I were you, surely to God there are more important things to being in the Forces. The really good officers I know hate being saluted and grimace every time someone does it. They‘re also the kind I would follow without them demanding it of me.


I‘ve noticed this... phenomenon too. Not that I don‘t think officers who enjoy getting saluted sucks or anything, but a lot of officers I respect didn‘t enjoy getting saluted.

Well, I am wondering when someone will bring up way of recruiting officers like they do in _Starship Troopers_...

*Carl G*, if you have not read that book, I recommend that you do. (Funny IIRC Heinlein was Navy, but his thoughts are like a grunt in that book)


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## SpinDoc (15 Jan 2003)

Also keep in mind that when something goes physically wrong at the soldier‘s level, a lot of the times the ultimate responsibility/fault is delegated to the officer even if s/he doesn‘t have a direct hand in it -- it becomes his fault because he is supposed to have a handle on it -- which sometimes isn‘t easy since I doubt any of us can be omnipresent, and delegation of responsibility isn‘t perfect.  And like it or not, crap happens out of the blue sometimes.


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## Wilson601 (15 Jan 2003)

BedPan: can you explain the starship troopers bit...  :skull:


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## MethylSilane (15 Jan 2003)

In the Mobile Infantry (of Starship Troopers) officers are commissioned exclusively from the ranks.  There is no DEO or anything similar.

Actually, I just finished re-reading Starship Troopers. It‘s an excellent book, and quite different, and a lot better than the movie based on it.


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## Gunner (15 Jan 2003)

Starship Troopers 

Take a look at the reviews.


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## kurokaze (16 Jan 2003)

> Also keep in mind that when something goes physically wrong at the soldier‘s level, a lot of the times the ultimate responsibility/fault is delegated to the officer even if s/he doesn‘t have a direct hand in it -- it becomes his fault because he is supposed to have a handle on it -- which sometimes isn‘t easy since I doubt any of us can be omnipresent, and delegation of responsibility isn‘t perfect. And like it or not, crap happens out of the blue sometimes.


True, as was said to me during one of my interviews at the recruiting centre:

"You can delegate your authority but never your
responsibility"


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