# Therapeutic Cannabis use



## 57Chevy

I here more and more about therapeutic pot use on the news lately.
I have considered it for my bodily pains.
Presently I use Celebrex, and at times, when pain gets kinda out there, I take Triatec which is opium based.
I am wondering about the pot idea and if it works......if it is better.....or worse, or what?
I find it hard to find any real input on the subject...as right away it seems that I'm not taken seriously.
Anybody?


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## ModlrMike

Very non-specific questions. Are you interested in your "pot use" and it's relationship to the CF?


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## vonGarvin

57Chevy.

You are seeking medical advice on an army-like forum.  If I were you, I'd go to a medical forum and ask them about the use of machine guns in the defensive, and you'd get similar responses.


Seriously, though, your questions are sound, but you're asking the wrong people.


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## 57Chevy

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Very non-specific questions. Are you interested in your "pot use" and it's relationship to the CF?


Obviously, I could go out and get some if wanted to. However, it would not be for recreational puposes. I did sustain certain injuries while serving in the forces. What I have heard is that marijuana has therapeutic attributes that help with problems concerning arthrosis, lower back pain, an such.
I am more interested to know if it actually helps.
I hate needles and I don't particularly like taking pills.
Thanks for reading me


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## 57Chevy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> 57Chevy.
> 
> You are seeking medical advice on an army-like forum.  If I were you, I'd go to a medical forum and ask them about the use of machine guns in the defensive, and you'd get similar responses.
> 
> 
> Seriously, though, your questions are sound, but you're asking the wrong people.



not quite
many mil pers have been injured in the line of duty, and suffer a great deal.
I think this is the better place to find some real responses.
As I am not the only one who uses medication provided by veterans affairs.


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## the 48th regulator

Are you asking about coverage and acceptance details by VAC, or are you asking about the opinion from the members of this site?

dileas

tess


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## 57Chevy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Are you asking about coverage and acceptance details by VAC, or are you asking about the opinion from the members of this site?
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



anything and all...what can I say?
personally speaking, I don't think vets affairs would accept it.. but I don't know at this time.


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## Occam

57Chevy said:
			
		

> anything and all...what can I say?
> personally speaking, I don't think vets affairs would accept it.. but I don't know at this time.



If I understand the process correctly, VAC has to pay it if your doctor prescribes it, so the prescription is probably your larger hurdle.  Have you asked your doc about it?

Not sure if you'd seen this or not - http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090514/medical_marijuana_090514?hub=OttawaHome - but at the SCAN seminar I attended recently, the VAC rep informed the audience that there were many veterans now being provided with medical marijuana.  I don't recall the exact number, but I was surprised at how many.


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## medicineman

I'm going to stay out of this for a bit - I have personal opinions for and against it's use...

MM


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## the 48th regulator

Occam said:
			
		

> If I understand the process correctly, VAC has to pay it if your doctor prescribes it, so the prescription is probably your larger hurdle.  Have you asked your doc about it?
> 
> Not sure if you'd seen this or not - http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090514/medical_marijuana_090514?hub=OttawaHome - but at the SCAN seminar I attended recently, the VAC rep informed the audience that there were many veterans now being provided with medical marijuana.  I don't recall the exact number, but I was surprised at how many.




Occam nailed it.

VAC covers it, if it is prescribed by your Doctor (GP, Psychiatrist).

Next question, are you wondering if it is acceptable by the members of the forums?

dileas

tess


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## TruckerJeff

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm going to stay out of this for a bit - I have personal opinions for and against it's use...
> 
> MM



I always like when people give their opinions about not giving their opinion  ;D   ;D (joke, joke!)

Have you tried accupuncture? I used to be very sceptical about it  until my physio tried it on me...and I must say it helps a lot!

Anyway, good luck man! Living with constant pain is not much fun....


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## mariomike

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I am wondering about the pot idea and if it works......if it is better.....or worse, or what?



We can all offer personal opinions, but only a Medical Doctor can sign the declaration.
"Applicants must provide a declaration from a medical practitioner to support the application."

"Who is eligible to use medical marijuana?":
http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/for-patients/who-is-eligible

"Who is eligible to obtain an authorization to possess marihuana?": 
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/marihuana/about-apropos/faq-eng.php/#a3


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## 57Chevy

mariomike said:
			
		

> I think Technoviking was right ( as usual ) in Reply #2.
> We can all offer personal opinions, but only a Medical Doctor can sign the declaration.
> "Applicants must provide a declaration from a medical practitioner to support the application."
> 
> "Who is eligible to use medical marijuana?":
> http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/for-patients/who-is-eligible
> 
> "Who is eligible to obtain an authorization to possess marihuana?":
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/marihuana/about-apropos/faq-eng.php/#a3



Now we're gettng someplace....thanks for the links......I'll be checking them out.
What of pros and cons?
 Opinions count too........As I have read the eligibility link, I see that I would be able to apply.


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## mariomike

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Now we're gettng someplace....thanks for the links......I'll be checking them out.
> What of pros and cons?
> Opinions count too........As I have read the eligibility link, I see that I would be able to apply.



Speaking as a ( retired ) health care professional, my advice, whenever asked for advice about what medications I would, or would not, recommend, has always been to make an appointment with your family doctor. S/he will examine you and prescribe what medicine(s) is best for you.
That's not always what people want to hear. But, it is the way we were taught.

Here is another link I found interesting. I hope you do too.
Medical cannabis in Canada:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_cannabis#Canada


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## 57Chevy

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm going to stay out of this for a bit - I have personal opinions for and against it's use...
> 
> MM



Lets hear it
I have pros and cons too
I remain undecided on its use, but I think it has its place other than recreational use. To put it
bluntly.....other than just getting stoned like most users.


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## 57Chevy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Here is another link I found interesting. I hope you do too.
> Medical cannabis:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_cannabis



Thanks for that too
Very interesting


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## medicineman

Pros - can stimulate people's appetites, can relax people, lots of different ways of getting it into the system

Cons - what's the real effective dose (Cheech and Chong size joints or just a small one, or better yet, a pill of xmg strength THC); for those that smoke it, are the health risks associated with smoking non-filtered smoke worse than what's wrong with the person; do they just want it because they're junkies and "nothing else works for me" that you get with drug seekers; fat soluble drug, so stuff can keep coming back (could also be a pro - maybe a little sustained release) - hard to regulate in the system properly; can build tolerance so therefore need more to get the same effect.  There the legal embuggerances of having to carry your LTT - License to Toke and Transport (not in that order) and where you get the stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I feel there is a place for this stuff, especially with some diseases, like advanced/terminal cancers.  When you give someone anything, you have to be pretty sure what the intended effect you want is, what the odds of harm coming to someone are and what both people involved hope to gain, all while taking the best available evidence to support you decision...people don't realize that alot of physicians aren't going to prescribe something if there isn't good hard proof of what something does and what the minimum safe and effective dose of a given medicine is.  A wise man named Paracelsus once said all medicines are poisons; only the dose determines poison or remedy.  The jury is still out on good dose vs bad dose I believe.

There are lots of other things out there besides drugs to hep with pain - the best pain docs deal with the mental as well as physical side of things...and there's the rub - people don't want to do the work that comes with staying healthy.  They just want to take a pill or light up and hope everything goes away.  People don't want the advice their doc has for them, which for the most part is really what alot of people need - they just want that magic Rx pad.

Sorry to all for sounding a bit preachy (and long winded) - I'd say the same about alot of medicne we give out as well that are actually legal.

MM


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## 1feral1

Like Bloke said try accupuncture.

See a naturalpath and things over the counter herbal. Massage can help too.

A lifestyle change of a healthier diet, low impact exercise in a group environment, and a happier outlook also can help.

Try the physio/chiro route too, or prescribed proven/reliable medication if you must. 

I'd steer clear of Mary Jane.

My 2 bob.

Cheers,

OWDU


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## 57Chevy

to mariomike: Firstly,  I am one of the too many that doesn't have a family doc. I do take the
                      medication that was prescribed to me as I support the doctors advice. And
                      I am not saying that the prescribed medication doesn't work....because it does.
                      At least to some degree. Thanks for the input
medicineman: You don't sound at all preachy.....A lot of docs are paid off by pill mfg companies
                      to get their product used. I notice in one of the links aformentioned about finding
                     a  compassionate Dr. because most Drs. are not for this type of treatment. Except 
                      the terminal type cases, of which I somewhat agree. I am not looking for a fix all
                      type of thing......more on the lines of pain management. Some days are good and
                      some days are bad. That's why the doc prescribed the triatec on an as required 
                      basis. I think that the pot use could be effective, but there seems to be a lot of
                      negative sides to the issue. For one, like needing more and more all the time to
                      obtain the same result. Memory loss and some sort of mental rage I see in alot
                      of the heavy user types. Thanks for the input


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## 57Chevy

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Like Bloke said try accupuncture.
> 
> See a naturalpath and things over the counter herbal. Massage can help too.
> 
> A lifestyle change of a healthier diet, low impact exercise in a group environment, and a happier outlook also can help.
> 
> Try the physio/chiro route too, or prescribed proven/reliable medication if you must.
> 
> I'd steer clear of Mary Jane.
> 
> My 2 bob.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> OWDU



I won't be trying acuunture...I hate needles  
The rest is good advice...thanks for the input


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## 1feral1

I've had accupuncture done, and one does not even feel it, and I hate needles too, ha  :nod:

I had success with it too.

Cheers,

OWDU


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## SeanNewman

Echoing Techno's reply that this isn't the best audience to ask, the Army for the most part is relatively anti-narcotics.

Even when things change in society it always takes an extra generation for the culture to change, because the senior decision makers were raised in the previous generation's culture.

Even if marijuana became legal today, you wouldn't see people doing it in the smoking area tomorrow.


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## vonGarvin

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Even if marijuana became legal today, you wouldn't see people doing it in the smoking area tomorrow.


Wanna bet?  ;D
eace:


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## SeanNewman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Wanna bet?



Yes I do, the same way you don't (or at least shouldn't) see people getting drunk at work.

If it ever becomes legal, I can not see it being treated any differently than alcohol where it would be 8+ hours before being on duty.  Possibly 12 or 24 hours, I guess...I'm no Dr.


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## vonGarvin

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Yes I do, the same way you don't


Though I get it that if it were legal, I would not smoke it on duty, or prior to.  If, however, it were legal today, then you would probably see me in the smoking hut at the mess, having a "puff" to chase my Crown Royal!

eace:


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## the 48th regulator

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Yes I do, the same way you don't (or at least shouldn't) see people getting drunk at work.
> 
> If it ever becomes legal, I can not see it being treated any differently than alcohol where it would be 8+ hours before being on duty.  Possibly 12 or 24 hours, I guess...I'm no Dr.



So would that not make your original statement moot?




			
				Petamocto said:
			
		

> Even when things change in society it always takes an extra generation for the culture to change, because the senior decision makers were raised in the previous generation's culture.
> 
> Even if marijuana became legal today, you wouldn't see people doing it in the smoking area tomorrow.



People would not smoke dope in the smoking area, as they would not drink during woring hours.  This has nothing to do with decision makers were raised in the previous generation's culture.

But I digress, maybe the scent of Techno's Patchouli cologne is clouding your senses today....



dileas

tess


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## 57Chevy

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Echoing Techno's reply that this isn't the best audience to ask, the Army for the most part is relatively anti-narcotics.
> 
> Even when things change in society it always takes an extra generation for the culture to change, because the senior decision makers were raised in the previous generation's culture.
> 
> Even if marijuana became legal today, you wouldn't see people doing it in the smoking area tomorrow.



Actually I think this is probably the best place to raise the question, knowing that the majority
here are ex servicemen and most likely abided within the law. I already know what kind of response I would get from the peanut gallery. That is to say, that every dope user/dealer from
hells half acre would more than likely srongly recommend it. Wheras here, I know that I would be getting an honest opinion based on the facts. Perhaps from true medicinal related users,
and not from the, "Lets get high" crowd.


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## ModlrMike

First, let me apologize for my rather curt first response.


Now, on to your question. There seems to be good evidence that cannabis works for some folks. I've not read any good peer reviewed studies on the subject. The real challenges seem to be essentially three:

a. the effect is highly variable;
b. the negative consequences of smoking the drug can outweigh the positives; and
c. the "Lets get high" crowd is driving much of the discussion, thereby obfuscating the real issues.

That being said, if you can get a bone-fide prescription, then you might at least see if it works.


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## 57Chevy

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> First, let me apologize for my rather curt first response.
> 
> 
> Now, on to your question. There seems to be good evidence that cannabis works for some folks. I've not read any good peer reviewed studies on the subject. The real challenges seem to be essentially three:
> 
> a. the effect is highly variable;
> b. the negative consequences of smoking the drug can outweigh the positives; and
> c. the "Lets get high" crowd is driving much of the discussion, thereby obfuscating the real issues.
> 
> That being said, if you can get a bone-fide prescription, then you might at least see if it works.



True what you say. I would much rather manage the pain than lose my flipping mind :nod:


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## medicineman

Anecdotaly, I agree with OWDU about accupuncture - used it to good effect for a couple of problems, despite me not liking needles much either.  Depending on your joint issues, other options are massage, chiro or osteopathic practitioners.  Of course, keeping active, though sounding a little perverse at first, actually does help manage some arthritic conditions.  It takes awhile to get in to alot of them, but I'm sure you could benefit from a referral to a pain clinic - should try to get one, even if it's from a walk in clinic.

MM


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## SeanNewman

48th,

You are correct that I was speaking about two different things.

When I brought up the "one generation behind" attitude, it was not to suggest that they would ban its use, so much as it would more than likely be frowned upon by the upper echelon because it was banned in the system of rules and regulations they learned.

If something is legal it's legal, but in social events such as a mess dinner, technically people would be able to step out in the smoking area on a Friday and light up, but I can't see that not having indirect consequences.

We would not see full culture buy-in until the soldiers and junior leaders of today (if it were made legal) get to those senior ranks.


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## 57Chevy

Thanks for the input on the subject matter.
And please feel free to add to or post your comment.


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## 57Chevy

Petamocto said:
			
		

> 48th,
> 
> You are correct that I was speaking about two different things.
> 
> When I brought up the "one generation behind" attitude, it was not to suggest that they would ban its use, so much as it would more than likely be frowned upon by the upper echelon because it was banned in the system of rules and regulations they learned.
> 
> If something is legal it's legal, but in social events such as a mess dinner, technically people would be able to step out in the smoking area on a Friday and light up, but I can't see that not having indirect consequences.
> 
> We would not see full culture buy-in until the soldiers and junior leaders of today (if it were made legal) get to those senior ranks.




As it stands in the military, even if it was made legal, I don't think the recreational use would
be much tolerated. Not just that, but the media would have a hayday with it.


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## vonGarvin

If it's legal, then that's that.  As an armed force, we have no choice but to uphold the law within our ranks.  Otherwise, we are rogue, and that's not good.


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## ModlrMike

Technoviking said:
			
		

> If it's legal, then that's that.  As an armed force, we have no choice but to uphold the law within our ranks.  Otherwise, we are rogue, and that's not good.



I think we're empowered to curtail legal activities (ie: active campaigning for a political party); we're not allowed to condone illegal ones. I wager that if pot were legalized, it would still be prohibited from use by the CF.


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## Dennis Ruhl

Something like 20 years ago alcohol was removed in Alberta as a medication as ineffective.  In my younger days, I found it highly effective.  I believe this is discrimination and I should be allowed to buy my medication of choice untaxed.  It is strangely unusual that the courts interceded to allow weed, an untested drug, to be legally used as a medication.

Got pain?  Use T3s or as I call them heroin.  T3s don't cut it?  Oxycontin.  You might even be supporting the Afghani economy.


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## SeanNewman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> If it's legal, then that's that.



Yes, but as we have already discussed it would be with an asterisk.

Just like someone drew the line with alcohol by saying "Legal, but only _____ hours" before being on duty, all it would take was the medical/leadership side of the house to quote one study and then say "Legal, but only 30 *days* before being on duty", which would effectively ban it unless you took a 5-week leave block.


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## vonGarvin

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Yes, but as we have already discussed it would be with an asterisk.
> 
> Just like someone drew the line with alcohol by saying "Legal, but only _____ hours" before being on duty, all it would take was the medical/leadership side of the house to quote one study and then say "Legal, but only 30 *days* before being on duty", which would effectively ban it unless you took a 5-week leave block.


Fair enough.  I just mean off hours, or whatever.  In other words, you can't be under the influence, etc.


I'm just talking about sitting down on a saturday night, day 1 of leave, smoking a big fatty by the fire pit ;D


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## SeanNewman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I'm just talking about sitting down on a saturday night, day 1 of leave, smoking a big fatty by the fire pit ;D



When I drive to Saint John I always wondered what that fire was smoking off to the west that smelled great...everything always seemed so funny until I got to Welsford.


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## medicineman

Alcohol is legal within a certain age and use range - but we still prohibit it's use in operational and  some day to day circumstances.  If pot were legalized, I'm willing to bet there would be seirous limitations on use - high to fly times, those sort of things .  I doubt it would be tolerated out in the smoke pit.  Besides, we are a volunteer force and if you don't like our rules, I'm sure someone else would be willing to smoke up with you at some other venue of employment.



			
				Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> Got pain?  Use T3s or as I call them heroin...



Codiene is a far cry from heroin  :

MM


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## 57Chevy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  I just mean off hours, or whatever.  In other words, you can't be under the influence, etc.
> 
> 
> I'm just talking about sitting down on a saturday night, day 1 of leave, smoking a big fatty by the fire pit ;D


Then maybe a smaller one on Sunday morning for the hangover........and what the hell, another
one Sunday night.......oh well...I'm on leave......it's only Monday.....might as well dig in. Etc Etc.
That's where the problem is.......use and abuse is a very thin line. Just like alcohol......You never know when the cucumber becomes a pickle ;D


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## vonGarvin

57Chevy said:
			
		

> You never know when the cucumber becomes a pickle ;D


If you see the cucumber become a pickle, then you've smoked too much weed ;D


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## Dennis Ruhl

medicineman said:
			
		

> Codiene is a far cry from heroin  :
> 
> MM



I actually knew that.  They both come from the same pretty flowers in Afghanistan.


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## medicineman

You apparently didn't as you stated "or as I call them heroin"...they may come from the same pretty flowers but are FAR from the same thing.  Call me literal or pendantic, I don't care, it sounded pretty ignorant in both the literal sense as well as the colloquial one.

MM


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## 57Chevy

I'm listening to the medicineman on that last one. 
In any case, a guy must have to be very well disciplined to abide in the dosage amts regarding
the pot thing. If you are allowed so many grams a day.......what does that mean?.....do you smoke it all at once?. Roll up 10 pins or 2 bombs or what? And then there is the rest of stock.
I think it would be too easy to over smoke so to speak the recommended dosage amt. And
ultimetly using more and more all the time......leading to worse consequences. Perhaps.


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## mariomike

57Chevy said:
			
		

> In any case, a guy must have to be very well disciplined to abide in the dosage amts regarding
> the pot thing. If you are allowed so many grams a day.......what does that mean?.....do you smoke it all at once?. Roll up 10 pins or 2 bombs or what? And then there is the rest of stock.
> I think it would be too easy to over smoke so to speak the recommended dosage amt. And
> ultimetly using more and more all the time......leading to worse consequences. Perhaps.



I would think, if it is by prescription, that information would be on the packaging. The pharmacist would explain it, and ask if you understand. Then answer any questions you may have before handing it over. 
From time to time, you would have to re-visit the M.D. who prescribed you for renewals. The M.D. may not renew if s/he has reason to believe the patient is not taking their medication as prescribed. 
I think, the same would apply to any medication. 

There is some information regarding marijuana toxicity here: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_cannabis#Toxicity
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol#Toxicity

Canadian Pharmacists Association:
"Position Statement on Medical Marijuana":
http://www.pharmacists.ca/content/about_cpha/who_we_are/policy_position/pdf/MedicalMarijuanaStatement-Final.pdf

Toronto. Apr/2010:
"Nine people are facing drug charges after police raided a Queen St. compassion club that sells medical marijuana to patients suffering from chronic diseases, including HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/789660

Youtube: "The highlights of the CALM raid on March 31st 2010. Watch from all perspectives as the Toronto Police Service force their way into Toronto's oldest and largest medical cannabis club.":
http://www.youtube.com/user/calmtoronto


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## medicineman

57 I hear you...I wonder how the prescriptions are actually written and dispensed - is the weed in pre-rolls, loose leaf like tea, and are there Brand names like Government Gold or BC Bud or is it generic Marijuana.   Sample Rx to read:  (1) BC Bud  Inhale 1 x 10g u roll over an hour up tp 3 times daily as required.  Dispense 30 x Dime bags up to every 10 days, refills not to exceed 6 times in next 60 days.  (2)  Steak and Lobster  Ingest 8oz of each with a baked potato after each BC Bud as required....

MM


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## SeanNewman

medicineman said:
			
		

> (2)  Steak and Lobster  Ingest 8oz of each with a baked potato 2L chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream and video games followed by wearing headphones and listening to acoustic guitar with your eyes closed after each BC Bud as required....



Sorry, slight edit.


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## 57Chevy

I'll be back......you guys made me hungry   
 And what happens when you run out? Well it's so easily available almost anywhere.
Which leads to promiscuity. Others find out about your legal pot use, and you get the mushroom effect.


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## ballz

Technoviking said:
			
		

> If it's legal, then that's that.



It's legal to have sideburns and a goatee isn't it? But not in the CF. Piercings?

I think if when pot becomes legal and treated much the same as alcohol, the CF will (and wisely so IMO) delay in allowing it's members to take part in recreational use until it becomes more widely accepted by society (in reality, when it finally gets legalized, it will be by a very slim margin, but after a few years it will probably no longer be a hot topic). 

Now, if it is legal, I agree with you, there's be nothing wrong with lighting up by the fire on Friday or Saturday night. I'm not sure CF members would be able to do that the day it was legalized though.


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## SeanNewman

I saw an article today that an ex PPCLI soldier with PTSD who smokes pot heavily is running for mayor of Kingston.  

Edit: Found it.  WRT Copywright laws the entire article from the Ottawa Sun is located here: 
http://www.evri.com/media/article;jsessionid=9wsl2lmwuyx0?title=Pot-smoking+vet+runs+for+mayor&page=http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/ottsun/100509/canada/pot_smoking_vet_runs_for_mayor&referring_uri=/organization/ppcli-0x390012;jsessionid%3D9wsl2lmwuyx0&referring_title=Evri

Pot-smoking vet runs for mayor
By IAN ELLIOT, QMI AGENCY
Last Updated: May 9, 2010 10:04pm

KINGSTON — A man who describes himself as a pot-smoking veteran with post-traumatic stress disorder who hates to leave his house is running for mayor in Kingston.

Greg Soucie says he’s a former member of the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry who served in the former Yugoslavia, where he claims to have prevented “a blood bath … in Serb-held Croatia in 1993 between Canadian troops and Serb farmers.”

Lots more of the article on link above.


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## 57Chevy

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I saw an article today that an ex PPCLI soldier with PTSD who smokes pot heavily is running for mayor of Kingston.



See!!......He has lost his mind :nod: ;D ;D


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## 57Chevy

No....but seriously. The pharmacist gives you a bag of pot that is supposed to last for so many
days. If it so happens that you run out....for one reason or another.....What do you do?
Having the necessary papers in your pocket, you could easily go out there and procure your own from the street dealers.
So I think there should be some tight control over the daily dose situation, like having it delivered to your home by the pharmacy delivery man on a daily basis. Eliminating that special paper in your pocket. Except for certain occasions that could arise. It just seems better overall to use the more traditional medications and other pain management solutions, like some members have suggested.


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## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> No....but seriously. The pharmacist gives you a bag of pot that is supposed to last for so many
> days. If it so happens that you run out....for one reason or another.....What do you do?
> Having the necessary papers in your pocket, you could easily go out there and procure your own from the street dealers.
> So I think there should be some tight control over the daily dose situation, like having it delivered to your home by the pharmacy delivery man on a daily basis. Eliminating that special paper in your pocket. Except for certain occasions that could arise. It just seems better overall to use the more traditional medications and other pain management solutions, like some members have suggested.



Apply your reasoning to any other drug, prescribed and legal, that can become addictive.

If you are using the drug to better yourself, self control must be used.  Monitoring by your doctor.  Marijuana is not the Magic drug that will turn people into drug fiends overnight.  There are drugs, much more potent, being given to people, serving and not, that are not vilified as much as MJ.

dileas

tess


----------



## Kat Stevens

Well, if I was given the choice between a hit of a joint three times daily as required for pain, or an equal amount of Demerol,  I'll take the big D every time... I like him, and he likes me.


----------



## SeanNewman

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> ...Demerol...



When my pregnant wife's appendix ruptured, Dr Onatchi in Pembroke gave her Demerol.

A few months later when she delivered in Ottawa they asked her what sort of pain medication in the past had worked before.  She told them Demerol worked great a few months before and they couldn't believe he gave it to her because it apparently causes still births and it all seemed to be universal knowledge to them.

It was the first time in my life I wanted to murder someone (didn't act on it, thank god the Minority Report red ball thing does't exist).


----------



## Kat Stevens

I gave birth to some deformed things when I was on Demerol, but no miscarriages.  Bottom line, my back hurt like hell without it, felt good with it.


----------



## vonGarvin

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I gave birth to some deformed things when I was on Demerol, but no miscarriages.  Bottom line, my back hurt like hell without it, felt good with it.


Too much info!


Oh, I wish fatties were legal for recreational use.  I could use one after that mental image!


----------



## the 48th regulator

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Too much info!
> 
> 
> Oh, I wish fatties were legal for recreational use.  I could use one after that mental image!



Don't Bogart that Fattie, Viking, I need a haul on it too after that image....

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I saw an article today that an ex PPCLI soldier with PTSD who smokes pot heavily is running for mayor of Kingston.



Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSoucman#p/u/3/ZOvtKbPxQEo


----------



## 57Chevy

Guys.......please try to keep it on the subject matter
               Although I admit that Demeral is a quick reaction pain solution.
               

Didn't care much for the youtube thing.......buddy has enough of his own problems without adding a citys' worth.


----------



## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Guys.......please try to keep it on the subject matter
> Although I admit that Demeral is a quick reaction pain solution.



Hey Man,

Don't 420 our 420 Dude....

dileas

tess


----------



## vonGarvin

Now, I realise that this thread hits the issue of therapeutic use.  I apologise for making too much light of it and talking of recreational use.  I mean, we already have stuff prescribed to soldiers that precludes them going on duty, no?  

So, in that vein, I suppose that _if_ marajuana were legalised generally for medicinal purposes, (I'm not sure if it is already, I think my sister was given cannibis prior to her passing in 2008), would then the "hippy crowd" then try to go to make it legal?  It's a stretch: I mean, there's no chance they would allow morphine for recreational use, you know?


Anyway, thoughts?


----------



## 57Chevy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Hey Man,
> 
> Don't 420 our 420 Dude....
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



What do you mean by that?


----------



## Dennis Ruhl

medicineman said:
			
		

> You apparently didn't as you stated "or as I call them heroin"...they may come from the same pretty flowers but are FAR from the same thing.  Call me literal or pendantic, I don't care, it sounded pretty ignorant in both the literal sense as well as the colloquial one.
> 
> MM



Messrs. Literal  and Pedantic;

When I am in pain, I ask for heroin and a couple T3s appear.  Surprisingly heroin has never appeared.  I have been known to employ figures of speech like exageration but make no claim of having invented them.


----------



## mariomike

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> When I am in pain, I ask for heroin and a couple T3s appear.



When I am in pain, I ask for Dr. Kevorkian. < just joking! >


----------



## vonGarvin

57Chevy said:
			
		

> What do you mean by that?


This


----------



## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> What do you mean by that?




Oy vey....

Don't kill the good times man.....

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=420

_The term 420 is used widely in Cannabis culture as a time to get high, a national day to get high, and cannabis itself. _

_Code for homicide. From CSI, but is the actual police code used by the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department.
419 = Dead Body
419A = Drowned Person
420 = Homicide
420A = Murder/Non-negligent homicide
420B = Manslaughter
420Z = Attempted homicide
421 = Sick or injured
421A = Mentally ill person
422 = Sick or injured Officer _



dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Now, I realise that this thread hits the issue of therapeutic use.  I apologise for making too much light of it and talking of recreational use.  I mean, we already have stuff prescribed to soldiers that precludes them going on duty, no?
> 
> So, in that vein, I suppose that _if_ marajuana were legalised generally for medicinal purposes, (I'm not sure if it is already, I think my sister was given cannibis prior to her passing in 2008), would then the "hippy crowd" then try to go to make it legal?  It's a stretch: I mean, there's no chance they would allow morphine for recreational use, you know?
> 
> Anyway, thoughts?



probably.......they would use any means as ammunition for their battle to legalize MJ for rec purposes.  There is just not enough control over the medicinal aspect. It may work well as a pain relief drug but there are too many loopholes


----------



## SeanNewman

I always thought "187" was the typical US Police code for homicide (?) as given by pop culture on movies, just like the "10" codes (10-4, what's your 10-20).

Seems silly for every police force to use different codes.


----------



## 57Chevy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> This



I see  :camo:


----------



## mariomike

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> 420 = Homicide



On Dragnet, they called it a "187". But, I digress.

"Medical Marijuana Program Act: California Senate Bill 420":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Senate_Bill_420


----------



## the 48th regulator

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Hey Man,
> 
> Don't 420 our 420 Dude....
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess






			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> On Dragnet, they called it a "187". But, I digress.
> 
> "Medical Marijuana Program Act: California Senate Bill 420":
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Senate_Bill_420



Oh man oh man.....And the sober ones are criticizing the dope smokers as being numb....

Don't 420 Kill our 420 good times Dude....

dileas

tess


----------



## ballz

Technoviking said:
			
		

> So, in that vein, I suppose that _if_ marajuana were legalised generally for medicinal purposes, (I'm not sure if it is already, I think my sister was given cannibis prior to her passing in 2008), would then the "hippy crowd" then try to go to make it legal?  It's a stretch: I mean, there's no chance they would allow morphine for recreational use, you know?
> 
> 
> Anyway, thoughts?



Medicinal pot is already legal for sure http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/

For the OP, that may be a good link to look at to answer some questions for you.

Personally, I don't see why marijuana is still associated with hippies. I'm all for the legalization of pot and controlling it, regulating it, taxing it, etc. I find it rather stupid that it's not already legal. There's nothing stupid like "peace and love" in the reasons I think it should be legalized. I just think it makes perfect sense on all levels.


----------



## mariomike

ballz said:
			
		

> Medicinal pot is already legal for sure http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/
> For the OP, that may be a good link to look at to answer some questions for you.



We gave him that link in Reply #11:
"Who is eligible to use medical marijuana?":
http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/for-patients/who-is-eligible


----------



## the 48th regulator

ballz said:
			
		

> Medicinal pot is already legal for sure http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/
> 
> For the OP, that may be a good link to look at to answer some questions for you.
> 
> Personally, I don't see why marijuana is still associated with hippies. I'm all for the legalization of pot and controlling it, regulating it, taxing it, etc. I find it rather stupid that it's not already legal. There's nothing stupid like "peace and love" in the reasons I think it should be legalized. I just think it makes perfect sense on all levels.




Here here,

One of the few recreational vices, that can be used medicinally.  When was the last time you heard booze, legally being used to help treat an illness.  When was the last time you heard a Doctor Prescribe Camel Unfiltered cigarettes to help with an injury?  MJ offers a Myriad of uses, yet has no legs for legalization....a shame really.

dileas

tess


----------



## vonGarvin

ballz said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't see why marijuana is still associated with hippies.


----------



## SeanNewman

Medicinal pot doesn't mean pot is legal; not even close.

What I'm still curious about is _*if *_it were to become legal, what the time frame would be between doing it and being on duty.  There are a dozen angles the CF could come at it from and all be right, ranging from a few hours to a few weeks.  

Technically, the "high" and "effects" part are generally similar to the "drunk" and "hangover" time frames of alcohol.  You are right-out-of-er for a few hours, but then for the next day you're still not really yourself (be it still not sharp from weed or sick/dizzy from alcohol).

Where it gets tricky though is that if they were sticklers they could really extend the time frame due to the longer amount of time THC is still detectable.  If they made it 3-5 days+ it would still eliminate the possibility of Friday night usage, which would make it only viable for long-term summer and Christmas leave.

The irony is that the people who are going to do it anyway (rules be damned) are probably already doing it during those leave blocks, so legalizing it arguably wouldn't change anything in terms of ground truth.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Medicinal pot doesn't mean pot is legal; not even close.
> 
> What I'm still curious about is _*if *_it were to become legal, what the time frame would be between doing it and being on duty.  There are a dozen angles the CF could come at it from and all be right, ranging from a few hours to a few weeks.
> 
> Technically, the "high" and "effects" part are generally similar to the "drunk" and "hangover" time frames of alcohol.  You are right-out-of-er for a few hours, but then for the next day you're still not really yourself (be it still not sharp from weed or sick/dizzy from alcohol).
> 
> Where it gets tricky though is that if they were sticklers they could really extend the time frame due to the longer amount of time THC is still detectable.  If they made it 3-5 days+ it would still eliminate the possibility of Friday night usage, which would make it only viable for long-term summer and Christmas leave.
> 
> The irony is that the people who are going to do it anyway (rules be damned) are probably already doing it during those leave blocks, so legalizing it arguably wouldn't change anything in terms of ground truth.




That is the same argument about size, metabolism, male or female, etc etc with alcohol.

Set a limit, based on medical and legal advice, then go from there.

Remember, you can still be charged with impairment, with over the counter/off the shelf drugs, if it affects your use of a motor vehicle.

dileas

tess


----------



## SeanNewman

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Set a limit, based on medical and legal advice, then go from there.



That's my point...it's *where* do you set that limit?  Because the answer to that question changes everything if it's 8 hours or 8 days.

I am a firm believer that the alcohol lobby probably has a lot to do with marijuana staying illegal.  If it becomes legalized, even if government controlled and heavily taxed, a lot of people would much rather spend $10 for a joint than $50+ getting drunk on a Friday night.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Petamocto said:
			
		

> That's my point...it's *where* do you set that limit?  Because the answer to that question changes everything if it's 8 hours or 8 days.
> 
> I am a firm believer that the alcohol lobby probably has a lot to do with marijuana staying illegal.  If it becomes legalized, even if government controlled and heavily taxed, a lot of people would much rather spend $10 for a joint than $50+ getting drunk on a Friday night.



A Very, very valid statement. If  MJ was legalized, there would be many industries, that bring in huge Government Profits/Taxes, that would be affected.

So much for Patria O Muerte....


dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

I think that myself and many others are getting alot of interesting thoughts, input and facts on the subject. I am hoping that those responsible for the implementation and proper regulating guidelines for therapeutic use are also watching. I feel that there is much to consider before using pot as a pain remedy.
 We live in a society filled with violence and all sorts of crime......the outright legalization of pot for so-called rec purposes is like throwing gas into a raging fire. It would never solve any problems, but surely, it would add to it.
 Thank you all for your interest.......I will check back in tomorrow.
 Remember....."All in moderation" and " Peace be with you"
 Goodnight


----------



## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I think that myself and many others are getting alot of interesting thoughts, input and facts on the subject. I am hoping that those responsible for the implementation and proper regulating guidelines for therapeutic use are also watching. I feel that there is much to consider before using pot as a pain remedy.
> We live in a society filled with violence and all sorts of crime......the outright legalization of pot for so-called rec purposes is like throwing gas into a raging fire. It would never solve any problems, but surely, it would add to it.
> Thank you all for your interest.......I will check back in tomorrow.
> Remember....."All in moderation" and " Peace be with you"
> Goodnight




Others, I hope includes all that have posted, I hope, in these forums.

Goodnight, and don't let those bed bugs bite.....Otherwise you will have to use many other medicinal evils not looked at, to ease your sleep.

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Remember, you can still be charged with impairment, with over the counter/off the shelf drugs, if it affects your use of a motor vehicle.



In today's paper.
"TTC union defends 'impaired' driver:
Booze, illegal drugs not involved, president of local says":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/05/13/13931226.html


----------



## ballz

mariomike said:
			
		

> We gave him that link in Reply #11:
> "Who is eligible to use medical marijuana?":
> http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/for-patients/who-is-eligible



My bad... I knew I wasn't eligible so I didn't bother looking ;D



			
				Petamocto said:
			
		

> Medicinal pot doesn't mean pot is legal; not even close.



Just to be clear, that's not what I said. TV said he wasn't sure if medicinal pot was legal and I responded with:



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Medicinal pot is already legal for sure





			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

>



Haha, and that picture looks like it was taken before I, or you, or most of us in this thread, was born. So my point of "why is it *STILL* associated with hippies still stands  Hippies and the military tend to be considered yin and yang, but here myself at least one other is advocating legalization. The hippie thing is just outdated by about 30 years.



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> When was the last time you heard booze, legally being used to help treat an illness.  When was the last time you heard a Doctor Prescribe Camel Unfiltered cigarettes to help with an injury?  MJ offers a Myriad of uses, yet has no legs for legalization....a shame really.



I blame the religion, but that's my scapegoat for everything, so I guess I'm just a bigot. 



I never thought about the alcohol companies losing money off it... most people that smoke pot drink as well... and a lot of casual pot smokers only smoke it when they drink. It's an interesting thought though. It would definitely affect alcohol sales but I'm not sure if it would be that drastic... I can't have a nice cold joint and steak on a hot summer day, or a few cold stems after a long day at work/school/whatever. Beer/liquor is much more worth the money in many ways... 

I should add before I discuss any further that I never lied on my application and I haven't smoked pot since entering the CF (or between the application process and enrolling for that matter).


----------



## SeanNewman

57Chevy said:
			
		

> We live in a society filled with violence... legalization of pot ... like throwing gas into a raging fire.



I agree with a lot of your post but the part I've quoted.

Alcohol has been shown to result in far more violence than marijuana, so theoretically everyone we can get high on marijuana instead of drunk would result in a better world.

Use whatever situation you want:
How many dads come home drunk and beat up their wife/kids?
How many young men get drunk at a bar and want to start a fight?
How many dope-smoking hippies rally for peace and love every chance they get?

I also don't believe in the gateway theory at all.  Yes, people who use cocaine and heroin may have worked their way through marijuana (and cigarettes, and alcohol), but they were going to get to Class A drugs regardless if they wanted them.  Society is filled with people who are quite happy just smoking weed and not going further.


----------



## mariomike

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I also don't believe in the gateway theory at all.



"Marijuana is the flame, heroin is the fuse, LSD is the bomb!"
I love this speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Twre6ItGEI&feature=player_embedded#!


----------



## 57Chevy

And a good morning to you all........Ahhh...a good cup of coffee to start the day. Which I might add is a drug also, and accepted worldwide.
Petamocto: the situations you describe are the first signs of substance abuse and/or alocholism.
Most people know their limit when drinking, and respect it. But some don't know when enough is enough and  become the pickle. And even then, by admitting to themselves that they have a problem, and seeking help, can change.  A casual smoker of MJ could in fact smoke without any
abnormal fits of rage. During the time of the "flower power" scene, the MJ was of little THC value compared with the new and improved variations found out there today. To compare, it was just crap. The users today think that it was the same stuff back then.....so they use that scene to back their quest for legalization. Which is an abortion to the facts. We see many
instances of criminal activity related to drugs, be it high scale coke, crack, and such, there is in
most cases found the lower echelon of drugs (Pot).
"Like throwing gas into a raging fire" has to do with the substance abuse and the consequences thereof. Somewhat like the drunk beating his wife silly. It is well known that MJ lowers ones moral standards, and with continued abuse will eventually affect the overall character of a person. 
Therapeutic use, I think, if used diligently, is not the same.


----------



## 57Chevy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Here here,
> 
> One of the few recreational vices, that can be used medicinally.  When was the last time you heard booze, legally being used to help treat an illness.



Although not for illness....brandy is still presciibed as a medicine for the aged. My mother is 85, and she has her shot of brandy every evening, and I might add, she is in great health.


----------



## mariomike

ballz said:
			
		

> Haha, and that picture looks like it was taken before I, or you, or most of us in this thread, was born.



I certainly remember the Hippies. 30 years ago, to me, is like yesterday. My first professional contact with them was in 1972 in Yorkville, and Rochdale. ( Roachdale we called it. ) They were both hippie havens in downtown Toronto on the subway line, and on the fringes of the University of Toronto. 
Rochdale was the largest co-op residence in North America.  
We were used to handling drunks. But, we didn't understand the drug culture: 
"Rochdale was originally a refuge for idealists. Ultimately, its cooperative idealism was its downfall. Dedicated to consensus decision making and granting a vote to everyone who lived (or claimed to live) in the building, Rochdale's governing body was unable to reach agreement to expel those who failed to pay their rents or otherwise live up to its ideals. Unable to pay its mortgage to the Canadian government, Rochdale drifted towards insolvency. As nearby Yorkville became gentrified during the late 1960s, much of Toronto's counterculture moved into Rochdale. This included homeless squatters and bikers who dealt hard drugs, along with a substantial number of undercover officers from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
By 1971 Rochdale had become known as "'North America's largest drug distribution warehouse.' Hash, pot, and LSD are in large supply. The Rochdale security force includes members of biker gangs".
CBC Archives also describe how "due to problems with cops and bikers, the governing council set up a paid security force to be on 24-hour alert. Ironically, some of these security people were bikers themselves. As had happened in Yorkville, an unofficial alliance with the Vagabonds outlaw motorcycle club developed." Rochdale's educational focus and student population declined as the drug business increased.
After increased clashes with police, and unable to pay its mortgage, political pressure forced financial foreclosure by the government, and Rochdale closed in 1975. A number of residents refused to leave. On May 30 the last residents were carried from the building by police. The doors to the college had to be welded shut to keep them out."

Regarding alcohol sales in Ontario. Back in the early 1970's purchases at LCBO stores were quite different than they are today. Unlike the current self serve approach, purchasers were not allowed to browse, and all liquor was held in the back of the store (like the current setup at Ontario’s beer stores). To make a purchase, the purchaser was required to fill in a purchase order form, and then hand it to the cashier. The cashier would hand it to the Counterman, who would retrieve the bottle, wrap it in plain brown paper, and hand it to the customer.
Interestingly, at the time, legal drinking age was 21. But, they reduced it to 18. I believe this was to encourage young people to choose alcohol, rather than drugs. 
In the late 1970's, legal age increased from 18 to 19.


----------



## 57Chevy

mariomike said:
			
		

> "Marijuana is the flame, heroin is the fuse, LSD is the bomb!"
> I love this speech. I believed it to be true at the time, and nothing has changed my mind since then.:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Twre6ItGEI&feature=player_embedded#!



nice video...... Other than MJ, the other drug types might be outdated but right to the point. I miss that show


----------



## SeanNewman

Great unintentional context quote: "LSD is the bomb".

57C,

If someone can't control their actions, then they are responsible for their actions.  It doesn't matter to me if they overdose on cocaine, alcohol, MJ, or Testors model glue.

What I was talking about isn't so much overuse or addiction so much as what happens with the average casual use (that the large bell curve of users would remain in).

The anecdotal case to compare the two would be a guy having a rough day at work and when he gets home he either (A) starts drinking or (B) has a joint.  My point is that evening will likely be much better for the wife and kids if dad chooses (B).


----------



## 57Chevy

That is somewhat true Petamocto.
I believe that pot was first used by mexicans who worked in the agricultural trade. After a long and arduous days work, they would settle in to a smoke. 
Also the native indians with the peace pipe thing.
But both of these situations was more inclined as medicinal.


----------



## CallOfDuty

Petamocto said:
			
		

> The anecdotal case to compare the two would be a guy having a rough day at work and when he gets home he either (A) starts drinking or (B) has a joint.  My point is that evening will likely be much better for the wife and kids if dad chooses (B).


  Bang on there.  I've never supported MJ nor been against it.  I really don't care....but I know from past experiences with my friends that smoked..... share a joint, watch a movie..have some laughs and call it a night.  
  On the other hand if we went downtown drinkin', someone usually gets kicked out of the bar...someone else gets in a fight, loses wallet, gets thrown in the paddy wagon, etc. etc........
     I think the evening is better having chosen Pet's option "B" .     Just my  :2c:


----------



## Nuggs

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> Bang on there.  I've never supported MJ nor been against it.  I really don't care....but I know from past experiences with my friends that smoked..... share a joint, watch a movie..have some laughs and call it a night.
> On the other hand if we went downtown drinkin', someone usually gets kicked out of the bar...someone else gets in a fight, loses wallet, gets thrown in the paddy wagon, etc. etc........
> I think the evening is better having chosen Pet's option "B" .     Just my  :2c:



How much of that difference though is that in one situation the people in question were with their friends in an area they controlled, versus with their friends in someone Else's area with 100 other strangers?


----------



## 57Chevy

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> Bang on there.  I've never supported MJ nor been against it.  I really don't care....but I know from past experiences with my friends that smoked..... share a joint, watch a movie..have some laughs and call it a night.
> On the other hand if we went downtown drinkin', someone usually gets kicked out of the bar...someone else gets in a fight, loses wallet, gets thrown in the paddy wagon, etc. etc........
> I think the evening is better having chosen Pet's option "B" .     Just my  :2c:



An obvious better choice, if there was only those two choices.
I am neither for nor against also. The ultimate better choice is spending quality time with your better half and kids.
You are obviously aware of the not so good consequences of substance/alcohol abuse.


----------



## CallOfDuty

...Well Crockett, have you ever been to a house party, or even a Friday night in the shacks...all your buddies let loose after a long week full of army co*k?  The booze flows( hard) and before you know it, all your best buddies are in a alcohol fueled rage, trying to rip each others heads off??  
  I have....too many times!
COD


----------



## 57Chevy

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> ...Well Crockett, have you ever been to a house party, or even a Friday night in the shacks...all your buddies let loose after a long week full of army co*k?  The booze flows( hard) and before you know it, all your best buddies are in a alcohol fueled rage, trying to rip each others heads off??
> I have....too many times!
> COD



the thread is about therapeutic pot use.
Lets not go off on a tangent.......at least not too much anyway  thanks


----------



## CallOfDuty

roger :nod:


----------



## Nuggs

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> ...Well Crockett, have you ever been to a house party, or even a Friday night in the shacks...all your buddies let loose after a long week full of army co*k?  The booze flows( hard) and before you know it, all your best buddies are in a alcohol fueled rage, trying to rip each others heads off??
> I have....too many times!
> COD



Yep, absolutely.

But a house party, or a Friday night in the shacks, typically mixes together more than just a few friends. And just because everyone there knows each other, doesn't make them friends. Again, the biggest difference between these 2 things is a half dozen people smoking a joint and a f*ckload of people drinking.

My point is the more bodies you add, the more problems you create.

[/hijack]


----------



## 57Chevy

Crocket @ COD
                          What you are talking about could easily hold its own topic thread.
                          noted is the fact of more substance abuse, which I find today quite 
                          rampant no matter where you go. I realize there are the "gentleman
                          smokers" out there who find comfort in some way using MJ. Which in
                          some small way, is in itself used for medicinal purposes. Quite closely
                          related to the subject matter. Thank you


----------



## CallOfDuty

57, I wish you luck....
  I know all about back pain as I've broken mine on duty not too long ago.  I've been through Hydromorphone, codeine, and all kinds of tylenol and Ibuprophen.  I hate taking pills and I hate how they make me feel.  If MJ could help, and was pefectly legal...I'd most likely be all over that.
COD


----------



## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Crocket @ COD
> What you are talking about could easily hold its own topic thread.
> noted is the fact of more substance abuse, which I find today quite
> rampant no matter where you go. I realize there are the "gentleman
> smokers" out there who find comfort in some way using MJ. Which in
> some small way, is in itself used for medicinal purposes. Quite closely
> related to the subject matter. Thank you



Question for you,

Which will make this topic relevant for the forums.  Is this thread about released members that are pensioned for the injuries, that you inquire about medicating via THC?  Or are we talking about serving members being covered under the CF Health Services? 

As you can imagine, there are two avenues of mindset.  Medicinal MJ is much more acceptable in the civilian population, as it is easier to keep confidentiality, as opposed to those that serve who are tested frequently and have to explain the approved use.

dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> 57, I wish you luck....
> I know all about back pain as I've broken mine on duty not too long ago.  I've been through Hydromorphone, codeine, and all kinds of tylenol and Ibuprophen.  I hate taking pills and I hate how they make me feel.  If MJ could help, and was pefectly legal...I'd most likely be all over that.
> COD



I don't blame you at all......that is the reason I started this thread. I think there is a need to
know more on the real consequences of possible addiction. Besides the Celebrex I use the triatec medication, and I find it quite effective. (I rarely use it though) I bought myself a special bed and a whirlpool bath which also helps. Also I use all sorts of rub crap and at times those little stick on heat pads.


----------



## dogger1936

With a neighbour like the USA and it's war on drugs the political pressure will never allow the legalisation of Pot in Canada. We will continue to empower criminal organisations by forcing Joe civi to give money to criminals than giving it back to the government and legit business. I personally don't smoke it due to my work, however that's the only reason.

If the minority wanted to get into power, all they would have to do was make legalisation of marijuana and they would win the majority. Holland hasn't slipped into dispair has it? Imagine putting pot cafes in Cornwall ON etc, imagine the pot tourism coming from the states....how many buy tickets to Holland now? How many would drive north for a weekend and bring their money for weed and food and lodging?

It just makes sense to me to legalise it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> With a neighbour like the USA and it's war on drugs the political pressure will never allow the legalisation of Pot in Canada. We will continue to empower criminal organisations by forcing Joe civi to give money to criminals than giving it back to the government and legit business. I personally don't smoke it due to my work, however that's the only reason.
> 
> If the minority wanted to get into power, all they would have to do was make legalisation of marijuana and they would win the majority. Holland hasn't slipped into dispair has it? Imagine putting pot cafes in Cornwall ON etc, imagine the pot tourism coming from the states....how many buy tickets to Holland now? How many would drive north for a weekend and bring their money for weed and food and lodging?
> 
> It just makes sense to me to legalise it.



Ah ah ah....

As per 57Chevy, this is about Therapeutic Pot, which is completely legal for those that qualify.

Let us not muddy the Water in the bong.

dileas

tess


----------



## SeanNewman

There is only one way to settle this once and for all, and it involves a CF-wide 2-year trial.


----------



## 57Chevy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Question for you,
> 
> Which will make this topic relevant for the forums.  Is this thread about released members that are pensioned for the injuries, that you inquire about medicating via THC?  Or are we talking about serving members being covered under the CF Health Services?
> 
> As you can imagine, there are two avenues of mindset.  Medicinal MJ is much more acceptable in the civilian population, as it is easier to keep confidentiality, as opposed to those that serve who are tested frequently and have to explain the approved use.
> 
> dileas
> tess


  I can understand that
I am retired from the CF. Many older vets would not ever consider MJ as pain relief treatment.
I don't think serving members should consider even talking about it to their MOs. (My opinion)
So basically......pensionned members suffering pain from sustained injuries. I don't want anybody gettng into the mud caused by my thread 
I hope this is clear.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Petamocto said:
			
		

> There is only one way to settle this once and for all, and it involves a CF-wide 2-year trial.



This could work well with the current operation, similar to what we practiced in the latter stages of the operation In the FRY.

Win the hearts and minds of the locals, by allowing us to visit and purchase the fine wares of the locals.

dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

Petamocto said:
			
		

> There is only one way to settle this once and for all, and it involves a CF-wide 2-year trial.



Don't be rediculous ;D
However, Veterans Affairs could undertake such a venture for retired members seeking pain relief management provided its proven effectiveness, and overall cost efficiency. But I have my doubts.


----------



## Michael OLeary

57Chevy said:
			
		

> However, Veterans Affairs could undertake such a venture for retired members seeking pain relief management provided its proven effectiveness, and overall cost efficiency. But I have my doubts.



Well, we just came full circle. On the first page the entitlement through VAC was confirmed:



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> VAC covers it, if it is prescribed by your Doctor (GP, Psychiatrist).



So, now the question is, does this meandering discussion have a further purpose beyond stroking someone's ego?


----------



## the 48th regulator

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Well, we just came full circle. On the first page the entitlement through VAC was confirmed:
> 
> So, now the question is, does this meandering discussion have a further purpose beyond stroking someone's ego?




I second that.

dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

I was quoting Petamoctos CF wide 2 year study 
Don't be shattered but,
 Where's the beef?


----------



## Michael OLeary

The beef is, what's the point?

This is a military forum populated by serving, retired and aspiring soldiers (for the most part).  The likelihood of there being any medical marijuana users here is slim.  If there are any, the likelihood someone is going to post about it here is even smaller.

Your hope of building a personal support group here for your desire for VAC to openly support veteran marijuana use under "medical" terms is misplaced here.  If you really want to talk to medical users, try a marijuana forum with medical threads.  Or try a medical forum with marijuana threads.

It is starting to sound like your doctor refused you a prescription because you didn't meet the medical criteria, so now you want try and drum up support from soldiers and veterans to lobby for an open approach supported by VAC. 

Your argument is going nowhere. Even in Radio Chatter we have a tolerance that eventually hits its limit for BS meandering threads where people pretend to have a purpose but achieve nothing through inconsistent and poorly structured posts.

Clear enough?  Because I'm very close to locking this and any attempt to continue will result in being introduced to the warning system you agreed to on joining the site.


----------



## the 48th regulator

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I was quoting Petamoctos CF wide 2 year study
> Don't be shattered but,
> Where's the beef?



And that folks is the beginning of melt down. 







Join us next time, Kids, as our heros, tess and Techno, devise a plan to take over the site!







Until then sleep tight, and don't let the "herb" bugs bite!

dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

michael oleary
                          If you read through all of the thread you will see that I was looking for info
on the subject. I thought there would be someone out there who could without a doubt affirm
that MJ actually does help the situation. Because I have my doubts. Like I said, if I went to
other places on the Web I would probably be told how it is so wonderful. What a croc.
Also, a friend of mine who had a very severe head-on car accident, who spent over 1 and a half years in hospital due to his injuries was later given MJ as a pain remedy.....Today he wished he never accepted that prescription.
In my case, I could easily obtain the same. However, my injuries are not as severe. But are related to military service. And after reading the many links and comments that some members have provided, I am inclined to retain the conventional medication that was prescribed.
And I thank those who have submitted valid input.
And by the way mike o, I do not have a family doctor. 
Oh......Support the troops


----------



## Michael OLeary

And with that ...

If anyone wants to share their medical marijuana stories with 57Chevy, contact him by PM.

Locked.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## 57Chevy

From Postmedia News and shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Medical marijuana elevates former soldier from rock bottom
Glen McGregor, 09 Dec
http://www.canada.com/health/Medical+marijuana+elevates+former+soldier+from+rock+bottom/5838194/story.html

Chris Hillier’s life arc bottomed out in a Vancouver back alley, across the country from his Newfoundland home and a world away from the war zone that broke him.

Homeless, penniless, and addicted to crack cocaine, Hillier slept behind a community centre, at the intersection of Hastings and Main, the notorious epicentre of the city’s drug trade.

Three years earlier, Hillier was in the midst of a successful military career, serving his country as an air force firefighter aboard HMCS Preserver in the Middle East in the months after the 9/11 strikes on the U.S.

His tour with Operation Apollo took him to the Gulf of Oman, the Arabian Sea, and the Persian Gulf. But the constant stress of working in a theatre of war left him with post-traumatic stress disorder, a condition he believes was worsened by conventional pharmaceuticals prescribed by military doctors.

Today, Hillier is off the streets and clean because, he says, of a treatment that few in the Canadian military like to discuss: medical marijuana.

Hillier, 35, is one of just a handful of veterans who are treating their PTSD with cannabis and getting it paid for by Veterans Affairs Canada. 

The department says 26 vets are getting support for participation in Health Canada’s Marihuana Medical Access Regulations (MMAR) program. Ten use it to treat PTSD, even though the Canadian Forces shun the drug for medical use.

The use of marijuana to treat PTSD is a contentious issue, particular in the U.S., where thousands of veterans have recently returned from war zones.

Despite pressure from soldiers who served in Iraq and Afghanistan who claim the drug helps them, and advocacy by some doctors, the U.S. military has resisted calls to make it available to injured soldiers. 

The U.S. Veterans Administration also does not consider marijuana a suitable treatment for PTSD and will not help its clients obtain it in any of the 16 states it is currently available medicinally.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services in September rejected a request to authorize marijuana testing on 50 veterans with PTSD. The government said it had questions about the qualifications of the researchers and safety concerns about vets taking the drug outside of a medical facility.

The Canadian Forces will not consider prescribing marijuana to active members who might have the same health issues, either.

“The CF are committed to evidence-based medicine that has been thoroughly tested in multiple trials and published in peer-reviewed journals,” said Canadian Forces Health Service spokeswoman Colleen Boicey in an email.

“There is insufficient evidence for the safety and efficacy of medical use of marijuana in the treatment of PTSD.”

A 2007 directive sent to Canadian Forces doctors specifically forbids them from helping patients get marijuana.

“No CF physician, third-party contract physician . . . or a physician engaged under a DND contact will assist the patient to complete the submission to Health Canada under the MMAR,” says the directive, released to the Ottawa Citizen under the Access to Information Act.

The forces will pay for authorized Health Canada marijuana if members get approved by another doctor, but base pharmacies will not participate in its supply.

To treat PTSD, the forces say they have a mental health program that “provides dedicated and responsive care for ill and injured CF members.”

But Chris Hillier blames that approach for pushing pharmaceutical drugs on him and putting him on the path to cocaine addiction.

Though he hadn’t been diagnosed, Hillier was already showing signs of PTSD when he came back from the war. He lost interest in his work. He was argumentative and couldn’t sleep. 

“I went from being a shining star to the bottom of the barrel,” Hillier says. 

He chose not to renew his military contract and by the time he left, he was dealing with serious drug addiction issues. There was an assault charge on a police officer. Another charge for uttering threats. He lost custody of his children.

“It was really a downward spiral,” he says.

Only after he started using marijuana in Vancouver did he find some relief. 

It helped control his anxiety and let him sleep. He put on weight he had shed during his addiction.

Hillier went home to Newfoundland and entered rehab. Doctors gave him psychiatric drugs — Zoloft, Risperidone, Seroquel — but he flushed them down the toilet and kept using cannabis.

“I was buying it on the street, growing it illegally in my basement,” he says.

“It’s what worked. Despite the fact it was a crime, I had to have some quality of life. I had to have some stability. The conventional drugs just created more problems.”

He shook his addiction to hard drugs and eventually told his doctor in Newfoundland the secret behind his recovery. 

She finally agreed to sign off on his application to enter Health Canada’s medical marijuana program.

Veterans Affairs agreed to pay for the marijuana, as long as he bought it from Health Canada’s supplier, Prairie Plant Systems. He found, however, that the strain of government-sanctioned pot actually increased his anxiety. Now he grows his own and his wife bakes it into cookies. If his stress level gets too high, he smokes a joint.

Hillier is enrolled in a Veterans Affairs vocational training program, learning to work in information technology security.

He says he is disappointed that the Canadian Forces aren’t more open to marijuana to treat active service members dealing with stress disorders.

“The health and quality of life of our men and women in a uniform could be really improved,” he says.

Hillier says marijuana can be more effective in treating the PTSD symptoms than the anti-anxiety pharmaceuticals that the military health system prescribes. The forces and Veterans Affairs should offer the best treatment for members with PTSD, just as they would for soldiers with physical injuries sustained on duty, he says. 

“They have a legal and moral obligation to fix you.”


----------



## larry Strong

Not a big expert, 10 grams is just over a 1/3 of an ounce, seems to me to be a large amount to do on a daily basis........

Shared in accordance to the Copyright Act.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stoffer-medical-pot-ptsd-1.3813735



> Former NDP MP Peter Stoffer agrees that medical cannabis can have benefits for veterans, but says he's worried about the amount of cannabis former soldiers are allowed under Veterans Affairs Canada rules.
> 
> Stoffer, who was veterans affairs critic for the NDP until he was defeated in the 2015 election, believes that the high level of medical marijuana allowed by Veterans Affairs — up to 10 grams a day — is fostering overuse.
> 
> 
> "Ten grams a day is an awful lot of marijuana to give one person. It is an incredible amount."
> 
> Stoffer is now public affairs advocate for Trauma Healing Centres, a company that works with veterans, first responders and others dealing with trauma and chronic pain. While he says cannabis can help veterans who are suffering, he says the goal is to help manage their pain, not to get them high.
> 
> "That's simply not the way to go. You're not helping that person at all. You're not giving them any chance of recovery. All you're really doing is masking the pain that they're suffering," Stoffer said.
> 
> The Trauma Healing Centres offer counselling as well as medical cannabis consultations.
> 
> "What you need to do is really sit down with these individuals, and long before you dispense any marijuana, look at their lifestyle: what are they doing, what are they eating, where do they live, how is their financial situation, how is their personal situation?" he added.
> 
> Veterans Affairs doesn't actually give veterans medical marijuana, but the department allows them to be compensated for up to 10 grams a day through insurance. Veterans Affairs Minister Kent Hehr said back in March that he was launching an internal review of medical marijuana policy, after data showed the number of prescriptions had increased tenfold in two years.
> 
> The results of that review will be released "in the coming weeks," Veterans Affairs Canada spokeswoman Sarah McMaster told CBC News.
> 
> "Veterans Affairs Canada is finalizing its review that assesses the department's current approach to reimbursing marijuana for medical purposes," she said in a written statement.
> 
> The auditor general expressed concern that 10 grams was too much in his spring 2016 report.
> 
> Auditor general wants better monitoring
> 
> "This is double the amount identified as being appropriate in Veterans Affairs Canada's consultations with external health professionals, and more than three times the amount that Health Canada has reported as being most commonly utilized by individuals for medical purposes," the report said.
> 
> The auditor's report also pointed out that while Veterans Affairs manages the only publicly funded plan that covers medical marijuana, "it does not monitor trends that may suggest high-risk utilization."
> 
> 'We have to understand that these men and women have sustained serious, life-altering trauma in many cases'
> 
> - Michael Blais, Canadian Veterans Advocacy
> 
> At least one veterans' group takes issue with Stoffer's position.
> 
> "No bureaucrat is entitled to get between a patient and a doctor," said Michael Blais of Canadian Veterans Advocacy. "If that physician has written out a script for whatever, it is Veterans Affairs Canada's obligation to fulfil that script if it relates to the wound. End of story. There's no limitations."
> 
> ​Blais said he takes six grams of marijuana a day to help with complex neurological pain. He said his marijuana has a high THC count to address his particular type of pain. However he says many veterans are using lower THC cannabis, which means they are unlikely to get high. Blais said marijuana has helped him and many others get off narcotic painkillers.​
> 
> He's upset by Stoffer's suggestion that doctors are prescribing too much medical pot.
> 
> "We have to understand that these men and women have sustained serious, life-altering trauma in many cases," and that medical marijuana has given them hope.
> 
> "And now that they've found relief, now that there's an alternative there, for anyone who is not in pain, who has not sacrificed, to come out and make arbitrary statements on dosage, that — without even looking at [a] man's medical record or talking to his doctor, is ludicrous," Blais said.
> 
> Pot for post-traumatic stress
> 
> ​Stoffer and Blais both agree with veterans using cannabis to help with post-traumatic stress disorder. However the Canadian Forces has said there's not enough proof to authorize marijuana as a treatment for PTSD and that some evidence suggests it could be harmful.
> 
> It's unclear how many veterans use medical marijuana to treat PTSD or operational stress injuries. Veterans Affairs said in March that it doesn't track the underlying conditions behind prescriptions.
> 
> Stoffer said he's seen many veterans whose lives were turned around by using cannabis to treat PTSD. He believes the anecdotal evidence of its effects, combined with whatever scientific data is available, should be enough for the government.
> 
> "I believe so. But don't take my word for it, take the word of the veterans who are on medical cannabis and what it's done for them."
> 
> A doctor would have to prescribe marijuana in order for Veterans Affairs to cover the costs, but the auditor general also raised questions about the practice.
> 
> ​It analyzed the data for a nine-month span in 2015 and found that just four doctors authorized more than half the medical marijuana claims.
> 
> Stoffer added that he'd like to see monitoring by Veterans Affairs to see if the medications they covered are actually helping veterans in the way they were intended.



Though it appears that not all Dr's are prescribing that much.



Cheers
Larry


----------



## The Bread Guy

Uh, yeah, about that ... here's a response to the piece from his new employers ...


> In relation to the article recently published by the CBC regarding Peter Stoffer: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stoffer-medical-pot-ptsd-1.3813735
> 
> First, Trauma Healing Centers would like to apologize for any distress this has caused veterans and their families. Mr.Stoffer's comments were taken out of context and it sounds like he is trying to advocate for VAC to make major changes to the amount of medical cannabis veterans can have reimbursed. This could not be further from the truth.
> 
> Please understand that we only want what is right for veterans(and civilians) in terms of accessing beneficial treatments. We are in no way advocating for slashing the current limits VAC covers. We feel this would be a severe injustice to veterans and their families and potentially life threatening in some cases. VAC is having trouble understanding the medical value of cannabis and we are trying to help VAC understand there is value and there is a right way and a wrong way for it to be prescribed.
> 
> We are strong advocates for proper medical oversight of patients who are being tried on medical cannabis. A start low approach and proper medical oversight will result in finding the lowest effective dose to control symptoms, whether that's 1 gram or 10 grams per day. Just like any other medication.
> 
> We are also trying to expose and overcome the social stigma that exists related to medical cannabis patients who are tagged "pot heads" and it's assumed there's a recreational motivation. Peter Stoffer and Trauma Healing Centers are big believers in the medical value of cannabis for certain conditions and we see the positive results in our clinics each and every day.
> 
> If cannabis is ever to be taken seriously as a medicine it needs to be thought of like any other medicine in the sense there are real benefits which need to be monitored and measured for the well being of everyone involved.
> 
> We want our current patients and potential patients to know there is a right way and wrong way to do this and Trauma Healing Centers is committed to a very medical approach. Proper assessment, prescribing and follow up to ensure treatment success is the only way cannabis can be legitimized as a medicine in the view of all nay sayers.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Trauma Healing Centers


I wonder if he wrote the statement as their new PR guy ...  >


----------



## PuckChaser

Imagine that, too much of something that doesn't have enough science to determine proper dosages is being over subscribed.


----------



## Scott

Maybe it's the beer, or the scotch, but I don't see where anyone is getting 10 grams a day. 

I see that it's _possible_ to get that much, but the only actual number I see is Blais talking about his six grams a day.

Far as how much that actually is, I'll leave that for people that know about it.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I have two friends who got out, and got very into the whole PTSD = Free Dope from VAC thing. 

Its like crossfit, cultish I mean.  All they do now is talk about dope and laugh at the huge amount the government sends them, for free, in the mail. 

Def not judging but not the way I want to seen from the outside. 

Oh and if the QTYs are the same as I see my friends rolling in, well it seems to be allot.  But I never really got into weed so I really don't know what allot looks like.


----------



## George Wallace

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I have two friends who got out, and got very into the whole PTSD = Free Dope from VAC thing.
> 
> Its like crossfit, cultish I mean.



I have noticed a lot of my friend have as well.  Several are heavily involved in running the MTF, or whatever programs (I am bad with the less familiar acronyms.), and drop in centers.  I am far removed from close contact with any of those locations, so I have not opinion one way or the other in what will have to be a decision made by Medical professionals, should it come to that.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

From the same science that sold you this.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

I've watched the growth of MFT via a couple of buddies who partake in the herb. Anecdotally....I can't say I've seen tidal change in their PTSD, the weed seems to alleviate symptoms but those I know who are MFT clients are almost 100% now seemingly stuck in the 'broken vet-medical marijuana user' pigeon hole. 

Bloody good business model. Money literally growing on trees, courtesy of the Canadian tax payer.


----------



## AbdullahD

The drugs I have or have not done, are between me and the recruitinf office... but...

https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/what-does-on-gram-of-cannabis-look-like-a-visual-guide-to-cannabi

10 grams is roughly 20 decent joints (cigarette equivalent for those who dont know... i suspect not many here don't dun dun dun...)

So the equivalent of 1 pack of cigarettes a day, doesnt seem to bad. But if rolled into blunts (ciqar equivalent) 10 grams is not much at all...

I know a guy who knows a guy, who would conside 10 grams a day nothing... to me, it seems like a fair amount... then again the research on this topic is dismal and to many people abuse it too..

*whistles*
Abdullah

Ps many medical users actually sell what they dont need...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I have two friends who got out, and got very into the whole PTSD = Free Dope from VAC thing.
> 
> Its like crossfit, cultish I mean.  All they do now is talk about dope and laugh at the huge amount the government sends them, for free, in the mail.
> 
> Def not judging but not the way I want to seen from the outside.
> 
> Oh and if the QTYs are the same as I see my friends rolling in, well it seems to be allot.  But I never really got into weed so I really don't know what allot looks like.



You're friends are idiots and posers. These will be the assholes the press zeros on for their slanted articles.

Your description of PTSD = free dope from VAC is insulting and shows ignorance for both the injury and the treatment. Perhaps some reading, there's lots of info of both.

Again your friends are morons. Perhaps someone close to them should sort them out. And tell them their embarrassing our whole veteran family. No one wants to associate with that image. 

There are many ways of ingesting cannabis. The simplest and most economical for quantity is a joint. It means inhaling all the burnt plant material. It can be used in a vaporiser which is cleaner but could mean a larger amount. Then there is edibles. Many users can't, or won't inhale.

Edibles start with having the useŕ process their medicine into a usable form for cooking and eating. This takes much more raw product than a person that just smokes it. Hence the larger amount.



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> The drugs I have or have not done, are between me and the recruitinf office... but...
> 
> https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/what-does-on-gram-of-cannabis-look-like-a-visual-guide-to-cannabi
> 
> 10 grams is roughly 20 decent joints (cigarette equivalent for those who dont know... i suspect not many here don't dun dun dun...)
> 
> So the equivalent of 1 pack of cigarettes a day, doesnt seem to bad. But if rolled into blunts (ciqar equivalent) 10 grams is not much at all...
> 
> I know a guy who knows a guy, who would conside 10 grams a day nothing... to me, it seems like a fair amount... then again the research on this topic is dismal and to many people abuse it too..
> 
> *whistles*
> Abdullah
> 
> Ps many medical users actually sell what they dont need...



You were doing not too bad, until that last statement. What is your basis or source? Are you talking about non Vet med users, or are you implying Vets are drug dealers? I'll wait for you to explain.

There is a huge thread guys, where there is a wealth of information, for Vets on this site. However you don't need to be a Vet to read it and maybe learn more about it. 

Lastly, many different strains of cannabis are available. Some has a higher level of THC than CBD, which is more heady. Higher CBD.is for pain management and other symptoms and won't get you high when the THC level is in single number percentage.

This is a natural medicine, prescribed by a professional. Dosages, of any medication, is between the patient and doctor.

While we're on the subject of drugs and doses, ever see anyone that's on handfuls of oxy, percs or fentanyl for pain. Then some barbiturates or the like to get a few fretful hours of sleep.

If Stoffer wants to worry about Vets medication and welfare perhaps he should be going after big pharma instead.




_edit for spelling_


----------



## Halifax Tar

recceguy said:
			
		

> You're friends are idiots and posers. These will be the assholes the press zeros on for their slanted articles.
> 
> Your description of PTSD = free dope from VAC is insulting and shows ignorance for both the injury and the treatment. Perhaps some reading, there's lots of info of both.
> 
> Again your friends are morons. Perhaps someone close to them should sort them out. And tell them their embarrassing our whole veteran family. No one wants to associate with that image.
> 
> There are many ways of injesting cannabis. The simplest  and most economical for quantity is a joint. It means inhaling all the burnt plant material. It can be used in a vaporiser which is cleaner but could mean a larger amount. Then there is edibles. Many users can't, or won't inhale.
> 
> Edibles start with having the useŕ process their medice into a usble form for cooking and eating. This takes much more raw product than a person that just smokes it.
> You were doing not too bad, until that last statement. What is your basis or source? Are you talking about non Vet med users, or are you implying Vets are drug dealer? I'll wait for you to explain.
> 
> There is a huge thread guys, where there is a wealth of information for Vets on this site. However you don't need to be a Vet to read it and maybe learn more about it.
> 
> Lastly, many different strains of cannabis are available. Some has a higher level of THC than CBD., which is more heady. Higher CBD.is for pain management and won't get you high when the THC level is in single number percentage.
> 
> This is a natural medicine, prescribed by a professional. Dosages, of any medication is between the patient and doctor.
> 
> While we're on the subject of drugs and doses, ever see anyone that!s on handfuls of oxy, percs or fentynal for pain. Then some barbiturates or the like to get a few fretful hours.
> 
> If Stoffer wants to worry about Vets medication qnd welfare perhaps he should be going after big pharma instead.



Ok


----------



## AbdullahD

Recceguy I am sorry, I did not mean to imply all or most vets were or are peddling drugs illegally. I am sure there is a percentage who are, but that is a given and beside the point.

My basis for making this assumption, is the fact I have driven cab in three different cities and in all three cities, I have seen people take taxi's to the dispensaries collect the drugs. Then in my car for quite a number of cases exchange it for money.

Now please note, I said many, not majority or any other term. There are many who do this. There is also a lawyer who flies to kamloops quite regularly who admitted to getting a prescription or whatever the hell it is for these drugs for a fee even though he doesnt need it for any medical reasons.

Also for the record, I have reported this crap to crime stoppers and surprisingly nothing happened 

Now since this is experience from my life, I won't go google anything... because I suspect my confirmation bias will be in full swing today  if you still feel I am out of line, I am kosher with that, even more so if you bring anything to debunk my belief  but there is always some percentage of people, willing to abuse any system. So to deny that there are people abusing this system is unwise to do.

Abdullah


----------



## 3VPspecialty

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> My basis for making this assumption, is the fact I have driven cab in three different cities and in all three cities, I have seen people take taxi's to the dispensaries collect the drugs. Then in my car for quite a number of cases exchange it for money.



Since licensed  medical marijuana is only shipped through Canada Post your assumptions are based on nothing more than that your own assumptions.

Also any prescribed medication of any kind can and will be sold to others who can't obtain it legally. But that's also not to say that it's more prevalent or less so when it comes to marijuana.

Once you stop seeing it as a recreational drug in these instances we can start to to move past any stigma. I have been allotted Physio and Massage therapy sessions per month by VAC and it's definitely not cheap but no one is saying I shouldn't be getting this.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

A simple side note, in case I wasn't clear above.THC is psychoactive. CBD is not. You will not get high from CBD, which is what many Veterans use. As well, cannabis contains terpenes that provide relief from a number of symptoms without getting high. Are Vets using THC dominant strains? Of course, because they also work, but not everyone does. So, please be careful with any blanket statements that show Vets as pot abusers.

Many users are now using only cannabis, opposed to the handfuls of opioids and other dangerous big pharma drugs the system had them on previously.

That is a good thing and worth the price alone to get away from the side effects of all the pharma drugs.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Now since this is experience from my life, I won't go google anything... because I suspect my confirmation bias will be in full swing today
> Abdullah



...and you would be correct.  Though cannabis users would have an impossible time cutting into the real 'get free, sell high' world of Percocet and Oxytocin suppliers.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Recceguy and 3VPspecialty have covered anything I would say.

I have a thread to educate some of the others on this one, including their "Friends".

I am also prescribed 10 grams a day.  7 bullet holes, and Numerous OSIs, have caused me to ingest way to Big Pharma garbage, that i have finally found peace.  IF you don't use it, don't throw out armchair Doctor guesses on what is too much for someone.


----------



## mariomike

I've never tried marijuana. 

But, I read today that Shoppers Drug Mart applied to start selling it.


----------



## AbdullahD

3VPspecialty said:
			
		

> Since licensed  medical marijuana is only shipped through Canada Post your assumptions are based on nothing more than that your own assumptions.



According to starbuds a medical cannabis dispensary I just personally called. You can buy medical marijuana and products directly from their locations or have it mailed to you. Maybe different areas have different rules?



> Also any prescribed medication of any kind can and will be sold to others who can't obtain it legally. But that's also not to say that it's more prevalent or less so when it comes to marijuana.



I 110% agree



> Once you stop seeing it as a recreational drug in these instances we can start to to move past any stigma. I have been allotted Physio and Massage therapy sessions per month by VAC and it's definitely not cheap but no one is saying I shouldn't be getting this.



People who use it recreationally are recreational drug users. People who are taking it primarily to help with an issue they have, are taking medicine. 



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...and you would be correct.  Though cannabis users would have an impossible time cutting into the real 'get free, sell high' world of Percocet and Oxytocin suppliers.



Agreed, but it could make an easy way for a person to have some pocket money. 



			
				John Tescione said:
			
		

> Recceguy and 3VPspecialty have covered anything I would say.
> 
> I have a thread to educate some of the others on this one, including their "Friends".
> 
> I am also prescribed 10 grams a day.  7 bullet holes, and Numerous OSIs, have caused me to ingest way to Big Pharma garbage, that i have finally found peace.  IF you don't use it, don't throw out armchair Doctor guesses on what is too much for someone.



Also, a lot of people develop tolerances to it. So they may have started at 3 or 4 grams a day and are now at 10 and potentially needing more. 

10 grams really is not a hell of a lot.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

recceguy said:
			
		

> A simple side note, in case I wasn't clear above.THC is psychoactive. CBD is not. You will not get high from CBD, which is what many Veterans use. As well, cannabis contains terpenes that provide relief from a number of symptoms without getting high. Are Vets using THC dominant strains? Of course, because they also work, but not everyone does. So, please be careful with any blanket statements that show Vets as pot abusers.
> 
> Many users are now using only cannabis, opposed to the handfuls of opioids and other dangerous big pharma drugs the system had them on previously.
> 
> That is a good thing and worth the price alone to get away from the side effects of all the pharma drugs.



I've always been closed minded when it came to cannabis but recently I started looking in to cannabis as a pain relief alternate for a very ill family member. Doctors have him on a ton of Morphine, Oxycocet and fentanyl patches. That's not the first time I've had a first person view of doctor "pill pushing". Seems to be a huge industry with a lot of money to be made.


I agree that this guy from VAC is in no position to get between a doctor and patient when it comes to the amount of medication someone is prescribed and he's way out of his lanes.   At the same time though I can see some valid points maybe.   If doctors are prescribing marijuana with the same reckless abandon that they seem to with oxy etc.. (in some cases) then yes maybe _some_ people are being given too much.

I've also spoken with a few people now (from VA, personal experiences) who have said it's just easier to shut up and hand out marijuana than to be the bad guy and be seen not supporting vets with PTSD/medical issues. Deal with that drama headache and attention. I can 100% see where they're coming from.  


Like Halifax Tar I have some acquaintances who unfortunately abuse the system. They managed to get a steady income of medical marijuana and it's a big joke to them. Yes they're assholes, yes they know they're assholes and they don't care. It takes away from legitimate requirement and use as well as vilifies in IMO.


I now think there can be some really good applications for medical marijuana. At the same time I think it's something that can be abused and we should look into checks and balances to help prevent any Joe Blow from leaving the forces to develop a sudden case of (non-legitimate) PTSD and need this stuff all of a sudden (again, personal experience with witnessing someone attempting this).  

I trust VAC as far as I can throw one of their buildings but having oversight accountability and balance with this stuff isn't a horrible idea either.


----------



## 3VPspecialty

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> According to starbuds a medical cannabis dispensary I just personally called. You can buy medical marijuana and products directly from their locations or have it mailed to you. Maybe different areas have different rules?



Dispensaries or any physical shop location is actually breaking the law and are not approved through VAC or the government as places to purchase marijuana. Most dispensaries are self regulated and are skirting the law. Not saying they are wrong just they are not a factor when dealing with VAC and weed.


----------



## AbdullahD

3VPspecialty said:
			
		

> Dispensaries or any physical shop location is actually breaking the law and are not approved through VAC or the government as places to purchase marijuana. Most dispensaries are self regulated and are skirting the law. Not saying they are wrong just they are not a factor when dealing with VAC and weed.



Okay, so we have two different issues at play then. Thanks for enlightening me, you had me wondering what was up enough to call them directly lol. I would hate to think I was that biased.

Thanks again


----------



## the 48th regulator

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Okay, so we have two different issues at play then. Thanks for enlightening me, you had me wondering what was up enough to call them directly lol. I would hate to think I was that biased.
> 
> Thanks again



Check out my thread, much will be explained.

Licensed Producers = LP = Registered growers and distributers of Medical Cannabis = Covered by VAC for Veterans

Dispensaries = Illegal = Anyone can open one, until raided = NO Coverage.


----------



## PuckChaser

Until there is proper scientific research done, and safe dosages for THC (if any) or CBD, we're going to continue to hear and see stories like this, especially with veterans being encouraged to self diagnose the need for CBD/THC and pick how much works for them.


----------



## the 48th regulator

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Until there is proper scientific research done, and safe dosages for THC (if any) or CBD, we're going to continue to hear and see stories like this, especially with veterans being encouraged to self diagnose the need for CBD/THC and pick how much works for them.



There is research out there, otherwise Health Canada would not approve this whole system. 

Wouldn't you agree?


----------



## the 48th regulator

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Until there is proper scientific research done, and safe dosages for THC (if any) or CBD, we're going to continue to hear and see stories like this, especially with veterans being encouraged to self diagnose the need for CBD/THC and pick how much works for them.



Israel is A Medical Cannabis Research Mecca


----------



## gryphonv

My understanding from previous experience is no two strains are the same. 

So the big question is how regulated is the potency of the 'pot'. And what kinds of safety protocols are employed to ensure the THC and other chemicals are within certain ranges?

There seems to be a lot more study needed and regulation before someone can say '10' is too much. Because one 10 ≠ 10 in most cases. 

To me it just seems like someone trying to score political points.


----------



## 3VPspecialty

Once the issue of marijuana legality is dealt with we will see a big jump in the ability to correctly test and monitor the products being put out.


----------



## PuckChaser

3VPspecialty said:
			
		

> Once the issue of marijuana legality is dealt with we will see a big jump in the ability to correctly test and monitor the products being put out.


Cart before the horse. Make it schedule 2 so the testing restrictions are reduced and let proper medicines be derived with research outline adverse reactions, dosages, and long term effects. Then you can work on  making it legally available as a medication like any other treatment you would get from a doctor. Why we are allowing bloggers to tell people how much and what strains to smoke is beyond me...


----------



## AbdullahD

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Cart before the horse. Make it schedule 2 so the testing restrictions are reduced and let proper medicines be derived with research



Good point, but Marijuana is already legal in other countries so could the research not already have happened in those respective countries? (I honestly do not know how much has been done)

Legality by country;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country

60 peer reviewed studies
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000884

Webmd article linking other studies
http://www.m.webmd.com/pain-management/features/medical-marijuana-research-web



> outline adverse reactions,



This link leads to other links in the writing 
https://www.leafly.ca/news/health/a-guide-to-cannabis-allergies-and-symptoms

2013 study on cannabis allergens
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3726218/



> dosages,



Dosage is a case by case thing in my opinion.. can not find to much on this..

http://www.cannabisculture.com/content/2007/06/16/5024

In the millligrams potentially?
http://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/exercise/get-high-train-harder-20141113



> and long term effects.



Negative article
https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/15/medical-marijuana-study-staci-gruber/

Wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_cannabis

It seems like the medical effects physically are bad... but on the psychological side if it is helping something way worse.. it could be a fair trade.

Also for comparison 
http://www.livestrong.com/article/79119-longterm-effects-taking-oxycodone/

http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what_are_the_real_risks_of_antidepressants



> Then you can work on  making it legally available as a medication like any other treatment you would get from a doctor. Why we are allowing bloggers to tell people how much and what strains to smoke is beyond me...



I recently skimmed John Tescione's thread... and I am on board with it being used as a medicine. Hell compared to what is already out there.. this is nothing. And sorry Puck I am not coming after you here, this is just a neat rabbit hole to go running down... the intersection of personal testimony saying it works vs academic research is very neat, neat enough for me at least lol. So you posted something that I was already doing so I used it so I could reply without spamming 

Abdullah

Ps Universities getting involved or are involved
http://www.universityaffairs.ca/news/news-article/medical-marijuana-a-growing-field-for-university-researchers-in-canada/

University of Massachusetts partner
http://www.maps.org/research/mmj/mmj-news

Okay I best stop.. apparently there is a ton of research that is done or being done on this subject.


----------



## 3VPspecialty

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Cart before the horse. Make it schedule 2 so the testing restrictions are reduced and let proper medicines be derived with research outline adverse reactions, dosages, and long term effects. Then you can work on  making it legally available as a medication like any other treatment you would get from a doctor. Why we are allowing bloggers to tell people how much and what strains to smoke is beyond me...



I mean just basic quantitative testing. And not just on the medical side of marijuana, since it's the wild west when it comes to "medical dispensaries" right now most people are guesstimating on the % of thc / cbd in products. Don't even get started on edibles, that's a shot in the dark anytime you test the waters with them. Mind you only the plant matter is allowed under VAC. So right now it wouldn't matter on that side of the fence but I think just for the safety of anyone involved we need better testing / regulations 

Also we have bloggers mentioning strains and % to take because it's also a recreational drug and has been used for many many years that there is some basic knowledge when it comes to using the product. It's the way it is, and if you've ever used the website erowid you will know that even bloggers talking about experiences with drugs can help you better understand what you are getting at.


----------



## Lightguns

No doubt too much, Oromocto is awash in pot and the pot dealers are beginning to complain.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

John Tescione said:
			
		

> There is research out there, otherwise Health Canada would not approve this whole system.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?



You mean the same Health Canada who approves all those other drugs you rail against?   Can't have it both ways...


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> You mean the same Health Canada who approves all those other drugs you rail against?   Can't have it both ways...



I don't understand your statement.

Please elaborate.


----------



## Staff Weenie

One of the issues I see, is that while there may well be very real benefits to THC, which can outweigh the risks of long term use, the hard science just isn't completely there yet, and may not be for a long time (yes, there is research being done - but not on a very large scale). 

The problem as I perceive it, is that is takes a huge amount of research to push any new drug through all the required levels of clinical trials. That costs an immense sum of money. Even Universities latch onto that gravy train to keep departments gainfully employed - so is their research truly unbiased at that point? For a large pharmaceutical company, which stands to make billions over decades from sales, it can still be worth it - Viagra is a great example of a drug which wasn't really needed in the quantity it is prescribed and used, but was marketed with a slick campaign of convincing people they needed it, and it's making billions! 

The problem with pot, is anybody can grow it in their house or yard, so how much money does a company like Pfizer stand to make off of pot? If they can't make billions, why would a large company care to do the research and clinical trials. In fact, they have a vested interest in blocking the development and research. Whether they are that nefarious, I don't know, but it would not surprise me to see if there are campaign donations to politicians who oppose pot.....

This leaves responsible clinicians who want to stick to evidence-based medicine in a quandary.

My concern overall is not the pharmaceuticals or the pot - it's what gives our people true long term recovery - and end to the nightmares, anxiety, depression, etc. I don't want to see our people drugged senseless, or high as a kite for the rest of their lives. That, to me, is the real problem - we're covering symptom relief, but not true long-term recovery. All of this is only getting us part way to a solution.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Hey all sorry for double posting this link, as I have added it to the Medical Cannabis for Canadian Veterans thread. It is a very good resource from Health Canada explaining Medical Cannabis in Canada and I think can be useful for this thread.

Understanding the New Access to Cannabis for Medical Purposes Regulations


----------



## the 48th regulator

Excellent article detailing the Research being done by Israel.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/123208/post-1461090.html#msg1461090


----------



## mariomike

Veterans in N.L. fear stricter medical marijuana limits
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/veterans-nl-medical-marijuana-1.3869886
Ryan Edwards says many veterans need marijuana every day to function

Ryan Edwards, the president of Marijuana for Trauma in St. John's, is a veteran with post-traumatic stress disorder, who credits cannabis with saving his life. 

The head of the Newfoundland and Labrador chapter of Marijuana for Trauma says new federal regulations announced  to scale back marijuana coverage for veterans are a bad idea.

Ryan Edwards told CBC Radio's St. John's Morning Show on Friday that the federal government's plan to scale back the reimbursement limit for medical marijuana from 10 grams a day to three in May 2017 is short-sighted. 

As President of Marijuana for Trauma in N.L., Edwards helps veterans learn about the benefits of marijuana to treat PTSD and teaches them how to file the proper paperwork to qualify for coverage. 

He spent nearly 14 years in the Canadian Forces, was diagnosed with PTSD,  and retired from the military in 2009.

"A lot of clients right now are in a high state of distress, they're worried about how they're going to function with the lower dosage," said Edwards.


"They need that every single day to function, just to go to the grocery store, just to go to the post office, to spend time with their children."

"They're not stoned, they're medicated."

Edwards said that while 10 grams of marijuana coverage may seem large to people who don't rely on medical marijuana, it's really quite normal.

"There's a thing called functional dose that you have to reach and smoking one gram, two grams a day is not going to get you your functional dose, you're going to remain being stoned. You're not going to properly medicate," he said.


"The higher the dose, the more cannabinoids are in your body, the more even you feel."

Plans to fight decision to lower limit

Edwards said medical marijuana use helped him escape the throes of prescription drugs.


"I was taking 15 different pharmaceuticals every single day for about five years."


"Side effects keep compounding and you're essentially just a walking zombie."

That type of use is typical for the veterans who come to Marijuana for Trauma, said Edwards, and he worries that if the dosage is lowered, more veterans might rely more on prescription drugs.

But his group of marijuana advocates isn't planning to accept the new regulations without protest. 

He said Marijuana for Trauma founder Fabian Henry is planning a march from Oromocto, N.B. to Parliament Hill in May, and plans to make it the largest peer-supported rally in Canada's history.

There's also talk of a constitutional challenge, said Edwards.

He said the decision to cut the limit of reimbursable marijuana coverage for veterans is just another sign of the federal government's mistreatment of veterans.

"The government of Canada would save money with all veterans being deceased," said Edwards.

"They don't want us to live a long prosperous life, they want to cut off our benefits at any given point, they want to get you back to the workforce right away and they don't want to really support us."


----------



## Jarnhamar

:nod:


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The government is trying to murder vets!
> Lets fight to raise the daily allotment to 20 grams a day.



Stop being an ass, you are mocking Veterans, and their wellbeing.


----------



## Journeyman

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Hey all sorry for double posting this link, as I have added it to the Medical Cannabis for Canadian Veterans thread.


So why do we have two threads on the same topic?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So why do we have two threads on the same topic?



I agree. Shut this one down. People aren't ready to discuss this seriously. Too many physically and mentally unaffected that think that they are being funny, smart or clever by half.

I use it.  My well being, physically and mentally, and that of my family is better for it.

So guess what? It works and if people don't like it, too bad. If they can't look passed their biases and approach things with an open mind, I don't care because I'm getting better and those that nay say my medications have gone beyond my range of hearing.


----------



## Journeyman

recceguy said:
			
		

> People aren't ready to discuss this seriously.



No, two people -- *you and John* -- are pre-emptively taking offence at _anything_  said that isn't 100% cheerleading for you.

If you can't address the topic without being hyper-sensitive, then just back away and let an unbiased Mod deal with it, and judge any postings (for or against) accordingly.



Personally, I'm a fan of medicinal marijuana.  Does my opinion matter?  Not even a tiny bit; but I'm OK with that.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Well I use fitness to carry me through life.  Doesn't mean I shut down any thoughts that go against that scenario.

I think every Doctor should order a "lose 20-100 pounds and then  we'll talk" chit instead of any drug but I  certainly encourage discussion  on the subject.
It's possible my fix is not the world's fix.


----------



## PMedMoe

Journeyman said:
			
		

> No, two people -- *you and John* -- are pre-emptively taking offence at _anything_  said that isn't 100% cheerleading for you.
> 
> If you can't address the topic without being hyper-sensitive, then just back away and let an unbiased Mod deal with it, and judge any postings (for or against) accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I'm a fan of medicinal marijuana.  Does my opinion matter?  Not even a tiny bit; but I'm OK with that.





			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well I use fitness to carry me through life.  Doesn't mean I shut down any thoughts that go against that scenario.
> 
> I think every Doctor should order a "lose 20-100 pounds and then  we'll talk" chit instead of any drug but I  certainly encourage discussion  on the subject.
> It's possible my fix is not the world's fix.



  :bravo:


----------



## PuckChaser

Not all science is pointing towards a miracle drug:

https://science.slashdot.org/story/16/11/30/0711224/new-study-shows-marijuana-users-have-low-blood-flow-to-the-brain (Summary of various articles listed below for those not familiar with Slashdot)

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/marijuana/there-link-between-marijuana-use-psychiatric-disorders Specific gene variation present in daily smokers links to higher psychosis rate
http://www.sci-news.com/medicine/marijuana-brains-reward-system-04402.html Long term effects on Dopamine production
http://www.j-alz.com/content/new-study-shows-marijuana-users-have-low-blood-flow-brain Abnormally low blood flow to brain in long term daily smokers

Promising clinical study at Toronto Sick Kids looking at low-THC, high-CBD compounds to help children with severe epilepsy:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cannabis-epilepsy-1.3873400


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Promising clinical study at Toronto Sick Kids looking at low-THC, high-CBD compounds to help children with severe epilepsy:
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cannabis-epilepsy-1.3873400



Now this is what we need more of.

"No two children are the same. No two children respond to the same medications the same way."

This line is so true because this is a big problem in the mental health treatment. When things aren't 'normal/ baseline' [ hate those words but] the same two drugs in the same amount can have completely different effects on adults also, not just kids.  And again, it takes so long to see new effects, some residents are done their sentence and are still bouncing up/down or getting switched on release date a year or 18 months later.  

I used to bug the psychiatrist at my old place with 'Well you're not a real Doctor, a real Doctor could just give me the right stuff. You just guess, heck I could guess."   Cue hairy eyeball....


----------



## the 48th regulator

Green Veterans Canada​
Green Veterans Canada is a Canadian Veterans' Medical Cannabis Advocacy and Peer Support Group.

We are here to provide a stigma free environment for people to be able to ask questions, Get educated, discuss with fellow users, and feel that they are not alone.

Too many other Well-being, and Veterans groups claim to have the interest of the Veteran. We here, take a wholesome, Zen approach. However, give it to us, and we will give it back to you double!!

We are also a free-living organization. We accept all people regardless of your views. All we ask is to be mindful of Facebook's Policies.

V.A.P.E.S

Veterans
Advocacy
Peer
Education
Support

Have fun, and be kind.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Are police and ems prescribed pot with the same frequency vets seem to be?  Are they covered for that stuff too? 

Also it was my understanding that vac prescribed pot for retired service members.  Active members had to be on their way out in order to receive it.  I recently had a brief where members were  told if they get a script for MM during a weekend or weekend leave then they need to report to the Cdu immediately upon return to work in order to be placed on Mels.  Does that mean active serving members can get prescriptions (and not be releasing)  from civilian doctors,  just not military?


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Are police and ems prescribed pot with the same frequency vets seem to be?  Are they covered for that stuff too?
> 
> Also it was my understanding that vac prescribed pot for retired service members.  Active members had to be on their way out in order to receive it.  I recently had a brief where members were  told if they get a script for MM during a weekend or weekend leave then they need to report to the Cdu immediately upon return to work in order to be placed on Mels.  Does that mean active serving members can get prescriptions (and not be releasing)  from civilian doctors,  just not military?



VAC doesn't prescribe anything for anyone... They will adjudicate disability claims and will approve or disapprove coverage of certain treatments and medications, but any prescription will be from a doctor, and medical practices will be independent of VAC, although they do have connections with some practices like the OSI clinics.

I suspect what you guys were told was to cover the possibility that guys go see a civvie doctor on their own time. You could substitute 'scrip for anything' into what you wrote above after all, people get hurt and sick during CDU-closed hours too. I suspect someone somewhere has decided to be 'that guy' and went and did exactly that... A very small number of docs are writing a large proportion of the prescriptions for MMJ, and I don't imagine they will turn patients away just because that patient is serving military. Not their problem.

There have been serving law enforcement prescribed medicinal marijuana, but it's been rare. Only one I know of had his red serge seized after he smoked pot in uniform on TV, and then killed himself. MMJ is still new and emergent, there's not a lot of data to satisfy very cautious, conservative organziations, and so I think it will be some years yet of policy development and legal action before this all smooths out. Many medications will result in MELs or another employer's equivalent. Right now a lot of stuff is still in the 'figure it out as we go along' stage.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Are police and ems prescribed pot with the same frequency vets seem to be?



Maybe former and retired Paramedics are? Not operational Paramedics. At least not in Toronto. Things have changed since I retired, but I doubt they have changed _that_  much.

It's right there in the Health Report that your family MD fills out, and then the Departmental MD fills out. 
You have to redo it every three years for the rest of your career.

"The applicant is being considered for a position at Toronto Paramedic Services, where performance in a high-­‐stress setting is part of the workplace.
Do you have any concerns regarding the applicant's abilities, judgement, or mental competence, particularly in view of the potential workplace?"

The problem is the colleges. It's a two-year diploma program just to apply. But, does college prepare candidates for a high-stress job?

"A retired chief from Toronto Paramedic Services told us during his interview that, in his opinion, the onus is squarely on the colleges, "so that not only are people going to be successful in the community college program, but within their first year of employment they're not going to fall into difficulties because of this whole issue of PTSD." He noted that, in his experience, there are "too many horror stories" of paramedics that have successfully completed the college program and after their first or second traumatic call, "that's when they find out they're not cut out for it."
http://ombudstoronto.ca/sites/default/files/Ombudsman%20Report%20-%20TPS%20-%20November%202015.pdf

If your PTSD is so bad you need marijuana, they will remove you from emergency operations. 

But, you wouldn't lose any money. They would accommodate you into a "suitable" City job. Your rate of pay would be protected - with all the raises each year. 

"Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an
occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance
Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive
the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the
pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the
pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate
is subject to all wage increases negotiated.




			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Are they covered for that stuff too?



We are with Manulife. Not sure if they cover marijuana or not?
We also have PTSD Presumptive Legislation with WSIB, so maybe Comp pays for it?

You know what our Departmental shrink used to offer? A cookie! I kid you not!


----------



## PuckChaser

For those that believe CBD/MMj will stay out of the hands of "big pharma", the former president of the company who made OxyContin is now head of Emblem Cannabis Corp in Canada.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/leadership-behind-canadian-medical-marijuana-company-has-an-oxycontin-past/article33200287/



> OxyContin creator expands into Canadian pot industry
> 
> Grant Robertson
> 
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Published Friday, Dec. 02, 2016 9:37PM EST
> Last updated Saturday, Dec. 03, 2016 4:40PM EST
> 
> When Emblem Cannabis Corp was cleared by the federal government to sell medical marijuana in August, the company set out to attract new investors, vowing to “change the face” of the industry.
> 
> In company materials, Emblem touted the wealth of experience its top executives brought to the fold, particularly in its pharmaceutical division.
> 
> The man in charge of that business, John H. Stewart, was a veteran of the drug industry, having spent close to 40 years in key roles at one of the world’s biggest pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> His successes, Emblem said, included launching 11 new products, in particular one blockbuster drug that made his former employer billions of dollars – OxyContin.
> 
> Mr. Stewart was now bringing that expertise to Emblem, which planned on “revolutionizing” cannabis consumption with prescription tablets and capsules that “would dramatically expand Emblem’s sales.”
> 
> However, there were a few details Emblem glossed over in its promotional efforts.
> 
> A decade ago, when Mr. Stewart was president of Purdue Pharma Canada, coroners and public-health officials were beginning to ring alarm bells over abuse of OxyContin, a highly addictive painkiller.
> 
> When he later became chief executive officer and president of Purdue’s U.S. parent in 2007, it was only a month after the U.S. company agreed to pay the U.S. government more than $634-million (U.S.) to settle allegations that it “fraudulently misbranded OxyContin” as being less dangerous than it was.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> , it was only a month after the U.S. company agreed to pay the U.S. government more than $634-million (U.S.) to settle allegations that it “fraudulently misbranded OxyContin” as being less dangerous than it was.



I'm sure that was an isolated incident and they won't mess around with pot.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161219084641.htm

People who have a greater risk of developing schizophrenia are more likely to try cannabis, according to new research, which also found a causal link between trying the drug and an increased risk of the condition


----------



## BinRat55

Just a little bit from me - my 2cents on the topic. I never read John's links so I do apologize if this is repeating, but I do believe it bears some amplification. First, understand that my opinions are based on my disabilities and treatment. Results may be different for others, however fact is fact and I have been a licensed medicinal cannabis user since my retirement in May.  

10 grams a day. It does seem a bit much, doesn't it?  At first, my prescription was 1 gram a day. Seems reasonable. My provider would only dispense strains in 30g increments - ergo I was receiving one strain a month. I wasn't able to find the formula that worked best for me. See, it's not about getting "high" and listening to Metallica while shoving pizza down your throat. It's about turning off the noise in my head. Making some of that pain go away. Most of us have the combination that works best depending what needs to be addressed. At 1g a day, this was never going to happen for me. So where does the 10g go?

I have found that making capsules is my thing. If you have seen 30g of bud (marijuana flower) it will fill a decent size jar. 30g of milled product (looks like flour) will barely fill a third of that same jar. I have also discovered that cooking with cannabis is pretty amazing. In order to have enough on hand to cook with, you would need anywhere from 1 - 2oz (30 - 60g) depending on what you are making. So, just to make capsules and bake / make tea or balm for pain I'm now at 3oz (90g or 3g a day prescription) I have a vape which I use from time to time. I smoke a joint before bed (bedtime weed and daytime weed are different from each other) and I have two different capsules - high THC / no CBD (straight up INDICA for sleep) and high CBD / no THC (full on SATIVA for sanity with no "high").

This is MY combination - all in all it takes all of my 5g a day in order to maintain what is working for me. What exactly is "working" mean? I no longer have debilitating nightmares. I no longer go to bed hoping I die in my sleep. I no longer wake up in the morning thinking "Fuck, I didn't die in my sleep..." I no longer live in the precipice of my couch, afraid to go outside. I cry again. I care about my life again. I feel almost human again. I no longer take ANY mood stabilizers, antidepressants, pharmaceutical grade narcotics just to schlep through my day pretending to understand what's going on around me.

There are many out there who can relate to this; many who can't. I truly hope that there will be a greater understanding in the future. We are veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces looking for peace - not druggies or dealers.

10g a day? Absolutely makes sense for some. I don't need but 5 a day, but John's daily plan works out to 10. Some work well with 7 a day, 3 a day...

And as always, if anyone has questions about anything feel free to ask - here, PM me, smoke signals... I will do my best to answer you.

Bin


----------



## the 48th regulator

https://www.marijuanadoctors.com/

This clip is ABSOLUTELY Fascinating, showing us clear examples of #cannabis has been used as medicine for thousands of years, including the first ever documented epilepsy case where cannabis was used to treat the condition. It will blow your mind for sure. Explained by Dr. Raphael Mechoulam 

https://youtu.be/KKLqGwnw29Y


----------



## the 48th regulator

http://cannabisdigest.ca/the-ugly-dissecting-the-canadian-cannabis-task-force-report/?platform=hootsuite

The Ugly: Dissecting the Canadian Cannabis Task Force Report







 by Ted Smith December 28, 2016

A report on legalization given to the Canadian government is profoundly disappointing for patients, shoving sick people aside in the zeal to cash in on profits and taxes.  In this report, which I should stress are not binding, the task force recommends less access with the removal of caregivers, no tax breaks and vague, weak language about pricing that leaves patients with little hope.  While there are many good recommendations and the task force seems to have a grasp of many aspects of legalization, the failure to provide any significant benefits to patients fouls this report.

Before I go further, I should stress that these are just recommendations and not actual law.  The law will be entered into Parliament in Ottawa in the spring of 2017 and many fear it will be far more conservative than this report.  No doubt every stakeholder likes some parts of this report and strongly disagrees with others.  There will be a great deal of pressure exerted by some special interest groups to dramatically change the direction the document suggests we take.

Legalization would not be happening in Canada or the United States if it were not for the wide range of substantial benefits cannabis provides to patients, along with their fight in court and on the streets for access to this medicine.  Court battles have been fought, medical cannabis dispensaries established and many stories have been shared to bring light to this amazing medicine.  The companies anticipating access to the legal market in Canada would not even exist if not for the current medical program.

However, patients are getting thrown under the bus with the proposed guidelines for legalization this task force just put out. The government task force clearly feels that people will find ways to get a doctor to sign a license to use cannabis if there are potential advantages, like lower prices, less tax or opportunities to grow.  By making patients pay equal amounts for cannabis as recreational consumers, legalization appears to have no real advantages for those that need the help the most.

Just to be clear, when I say patients, I mean each and everyone of us except those lucky enough to just drop dead one day with no pain.  Almost everyone is a patient at some point in our lives and so when I say patients will suffer if these recommendations are implemented, what I really mean to say is we all will suffer.   

“The Government will need to work closely with licensed producers and patients to identify and address emerging issues and take decisive action if required, whether requiring licensed producers to prioritize supply for medical users or establishing price controls for medical users. The Government should take the necessary steps to have the authority to regulate these issues moving forward, while being mindful that executing these authorities may create the potential for market distortion and exploitation as individuals seek to benefit from perceived advantages in the medical regime.”

Most Licensed Producers will likely have little to do with patients once they have access to the much larger recreational market.  Governments will be hard pressed to find ways to force them to put herb aside for patients, grow special strains or produce specialty products like suppositories and salves.  Profits are the motivation of these companies and patients will find little sympathy in that.

For many patients, like my lover Gayle Quin who just died of cancer a few months ago, the option of growing your own medicine is physically impossible.  Being forced to purchase all of the cannabis medicines she needed to stay alive would have cost us at least $200 per day for the last two years of her life.  Thankfully she had a license to grow her own medicine and others with their own gardens pitched in what they could afford, or she would have died much sooner. These proposal are a dismal failure for patients like her for many reasons.

Proposing to take away the opportunity to have a designated grower provide medicine is a quick death sentence to some patients and a huge blow to the gut for others.  How could any rational, caring person suggest that patients that are losing the battle to stay alive must give up their garden when they can no longer physically maintain it, forcing them to purchase every gram they use?  Yet that is what this task force has done, claiming that a magical unicorn will appear to protect patients’ access.

“However, the Task Force believes that the Government should respond to the concerns expressed by municipalities, law enforcement officials and community members by immediately reviewing the current risks associated with designated production and the ongoing need for such production. There should be a sufficient range of options available to patients in the future to easily access cannabis for their medical need. The majority of Task Force members believe that the problems with the activities of some designated producers are serious and that the Government should determine an appropriate timeframe for phasing out this provision as the new system for non-medical uses of cannabis is established.”

These proposals completely fail to recognize any use of cannabis in palliative care.  Instead of encouraging pilot projects for patients who wish to use cannabis towards the end of their lives, the task force only proposes more research is done in very general terms.  This is the same Liberal government that promised research when the medical access programs were first brought into effect in the late 1990’s, but has done almost nothing then or now to actually see that research is done.  Little clinical research is being done in Canada on cannabis products right now, in part because the drug approval process has been thwarted by court decisions and the government does not conduct any research of its own.

This report could have been an opportunity for the task force to advance the development of many health products that contain little to no THC.  To the great dismay of farmers, patients and advocates, though, the task force makes only weak statements about what other areas of government might be doing on this issue.  Just more proof this government only has a limited understanding of the potential benefits of cannabis and that their collective fear of this plant still stops many from openly embracing it.

“Some companies may wish to market cannabis products as “wellness products” rather than as medicines. We understand that the federal government is currently conducting a review of its approach to the regulation of natural health products. The question of CBD or other non-psychoactive cannabinoids as potential wellness products is likely to be explored in this review process and will be informed by emerging research in this area.”

With a great deal of pressure from the Canadian Medical Association to remove the medical cannabis program entirely, the task force is using legalization as an excuse for withdrawing important components of the current medical program while offering no concrete benefits.  These proposed regulations are a step back for patients, treating them with suspicion rather than compassion.  While the rest of the report deserves credit for proposing some progressive recommendations, everyone should be concerned what will happen to patients if these suggestions become law.


----------



## the 48th regulator

https://www.greenrushdaily.com/2016/06/27/prehistoric-marijuana-use/



Marijuana Use Dates Back Almost 5,000 Years​

*Prehistoric Marijuana Use*

Did you know the same people responsible for building the pyramids of Egypt were also known for their marijuana use? Even one of the greatest pharaohs of Ancient Egypt: King Ramses II’s mummy was found covered in kief particles. Another mummy was found buried with a 2-pound weed stash, apparently prepared for the afterlife. From the first Mesopotamian clay tablets to ancient Egyptian papyrus scrolls, evidence of prehistoric cannabis use can be found in the texts and burial sites of various ancient civilizations.





_Marijuana Use Dates Back Almost 5,000 Years_


*Romania*

Proof of marijuana use dates as far back as 3000 B.C., which was 5,000 years ago. In Romania, fire pits were found dating back to 3000 B.C. with burned and charred seeds indicating the use of marijuana for inhalation. Some archaeologists believe it was likely burned for use in magical religious rite ceremonies.

*Pakistan*

In December of 2013, scientists discovered the earliest case of cannabis use to date. On the shores of the Kunar river of Pakistan, in the Hindu Kush Mountains, a prehistoric tomb site was found. It was said to have belonged to a local shaman and was considered to contain marijuana seeds, resin, along with ash. The presence of ash with hash and seeds has led archaeologists to believe that this is the earliest known evidence of marijuana consumption in human history.

“According to the location and context in which the cannabis was found, leads us to believe it was used for ritual purposes. It seems that the occupants of the site threw large quantities of leaves, buds and resin in the fireplace situated on the far end of the cave, filling the entire site with psychotropic smoke.” – Professor Muzaffar Kambarzahi of the National Institute of Historical & Cultural Research





_Marijuana Use Dates Back Almost 5,000 Years_

*China*

Before the location in Pakistan was discovered, China was home to the world’s oldest known pothead. In a 2,700-year-old grave in the Gobi Desert, a whole 2 pounds of marijuana was found that according to the lead author of the initial report was “quite similar” to the weed that’s being grown today.

Genetic and chemical analysis revealed that the herbs found in the grave were cannabis. It was also found that all the male plants which are less psychoactive than their female counterparts were picked out of the 2-pound stash.

This may indicate that the ancient civilization was aware of and made use of the psychoactive properties associated with the plant. The individual found with the 2-pound stash was said to be a member of the Gushi civilization around the age of 45 and a shaman.





Marijuana Use Dates Back Almost 5,000 Years

*Egypt*

An ancient Egyptian papyrus scroll dating back to 1700 BC was found to contain some of the first known medical references to marijuana. Hemp which is made from the male cannabis plant was used in ancient Egypt as a material to make things like rope and fine linens.

Another scroll called the Eber’s papyrus which is known as the world’s oldest known complete medical textbook also contained a reference to the medicinal qualities of cannabis.

The Ebers papyrus is believed by some archaeologists to be a copy of a book that is actually from 3000 BC or earlier.

The ancient Egyptian goddess of wisdom or Seshat was often depicted with what appears to be a pot leaf above her head illustrating the importance of the plant in ancient Egyptian religion.

Since the cannabis plant originates in some areas of Asia a lot of the cannabis found in ancient civilizations must have been brought over through trade. Many of the ancient sites containing cannabis were the graves of religious men further illustrating the link between ancient spirituality and marijuana. Before it was taboo, marijuana was found and used throughout various past civilizations and even prescribed to American and British patients only about a century ago.


----------



## Stoker

Cases of New Illness From Chronic Marijuana Use Increasing

https://newsline.com/cases-of-new-illness-from-chronic-marijuana-use-increasing/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/medical-marijuana-cannabinoid-hyperemesis-syndrome-vomiting-nausea-diagnosis-1.3853227



 People who frequently use marijuana now face a new challenge other than anti-pot groups. A new marijuana-related illness is now on the rise.

Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome (CHS) is a chronic disease a marijuana user can acquire. CHS symptoms start with a series of recurrent nausea, vomiting, and crampy abdominal pain. It appears the that the main remedy for CHS symptoms is a hot shower.

The CHS symptoms are highly similar to common stomach bugs. Doctors said patient would need three to four check-ups or emergency room visits before they can get a correct diagnosis.

Lance Crower, a patient who suffers from CHS said, for nearly two years he went multiple times to an emergency room before getting an accurate diagnosis.

“The first question he asked was if I was taking hot showers to find relief. When he asked me that question, I basically fell into tears because I knew he had an answer,” Crowder told MSN.


Patients who suffer from CHS have increased in Colorado since the state legalized marijuana, said Dr. Kennon Heard, an emergency room doctor.

“It is certainly something that, before legalization, we almost never saw… Now we are seeing it quite frequently,” said Heard.

Dr. Eric Lavona, a Denver physician, said that CHS is not a serious disease. “These folks are really suffering. People can get pretty sick,” said Lavona.

There have been multiple reports of CHS incidents across the U.S. including District of Columbia.

Meanwhile, doctors and hospital staff in marijuana legal states are frequently getting a patient who suffers from CHS. Physicians said that patients in marijuana-free states are highly unlikely to get a correct diagnosis. Doctors often misdiagnose CHS because the symptoms resemble some stomach related disorders.

CHS was discovered in the last decade, experts are not sure how many marijuana users suffer from the disorder.



Medical marijuana user warns about cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome




A Halifax woman says she threw up "all day long" for eight months straight — and her medical marijuana is to blame. 

It wasn't until a specialist diagnosed Dawn Rae Downton with cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, and she stopped taking marijuana entirely, that she says the vomiting finally ended.

"Vomiting and just a complete malaise, I was bedridden most of the time," she said of the period she took marijuana.

The condition, which was first documented in 2004 and has not been widely researched, is characterized by cyclical bouts of nausea, vomiting and gastrointestinal discomfort, said Toronto family doctor Peter Lin.

If it occurs often enough, it can lead to things like weight loss, dehydration, and vomiting blood, said Lin, who is also a health columnist for CBC.

Health Canada, however, does not mention the condition on its consumer information page for cannabis.


Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome is most commonly diagnosed in long-term, frequent marijuana users, Lin said. However, that doesn't apply to Downton.

"I got sick within two weeks of ingesting this stuff," she said.
'Shooting myself in the foot'

Downton said she lost her appetite, and when she wasn't in bed, she was vomiting. "It would start the minute I woke up and the only way that it would stop is when I went to sleep," she said.

Downton, who was baking her medical marijuana into cookies and eating them to treat a medical condition she doesn't want to disclose publicly, said she was under the impression that marijuana could ease nausea. 

"I was actually taking more, thinking that it was going to help me," she said, "and not realizing that I was shooting myself in the foot."
USA/

Traditional treatments for nausea and vomiting don't seem to help in cases of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, Dr. Peter Lin said, although hot showers or baths can provide temporary relief. (David McNew/Reuters)
Diagnosed by specialist

Downton said it took eight months to get an appointment with a gastroenterologist, and she continued to ingest medical marijuana — and vomit — every day.

On Oct. 24, she said she went to her appointment and the specialist diagnosed her "virtually the minute he saw me."

"I was on the scope table, getting ready for an endoscopy. He said you have the symptoms of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome," Downton said, "and immediately I thought, 'This guy's nuts.'"
'I want to warn people'

Downton told the gastroenterologist she had stopped taking marijuana for a week as a test to see if it caused the vomiting, and it didn't work. 

He told her cannabis has a long half-life, and she would need to stop for a more extended period of time in order to clear it from her system, Downton said. She stopped, and about a month later, the vomiting did too.

"I'm afraid that people are walking into trouble" when they start taking medical marijuana, she said.

Downton said her family doctor had never heard of the condition. "I want to protect people, I want to warn people," she said.
Spike in cases

Lin said in American states like Colorado, where marijuana is legal, hospitals are reporting a spike in the number of people reporting cyclical vomiting conditions.

He said it's possible that cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome has been misdiagnosed in the past.

Traditional treatments for nausea and vomiting don't seem to help in these cases, Lin said, although hot showers or baths can provide temporary relief. The best solution, he said, is to stop taking marijuana entirely.


----------



## the 48th regulator

NASA Has Discovered A New Planet Covered With *Marijuana*​



NASA has announced this morning that they have discovered a planet completely covered with marijuana, a discovery that has completely taken scientists by surprise.

Planet X637Z-43, discovered using NASA’s Kepler satellite, would also allegedly be one of the very few planets potentially habitable according to NASA experts, who have detected sufficient levels of oxygen and nitrogen to support human life.




_NASA’S Kepler satellite has discovered a new planet covered with marijuana confirm experts_

The presence of marijuana on other planets could strongly encourage future generations to take interest in space exploration, some experts believe.

“We always think young people aren’t interested by anything but it’s false. Young people love smoking pot,” explains David Charbonneau, astronomer at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.

“Chlorophyll concentration analyses generated by Kepler lead us to believe that the level of THC in these marijuana plants is 3000% higher than the plants found on Earth. If that doesn’t motivate young people to explore space, I don’t know what will,” admits the expert, clearly enthusiastic.

“Regardless, marijuana will without a doubt be a valuable and indispensable resource for interstellar trips. Imagine if it takes 140 years to travel from one planet to another, let’s just say it’s going to be a very long trip. You better have rolled yourself a couple of joints for the road,” he admits with humor.

Since the discovery, NASA has launched a campaign on social medias to name the new planet and so far, the name Bob Marley has taken the lead with over 2 094 367 votes at the time of this report.


----------



## Stoker

John Tescione said:
			
		

> NASA Has Discovered A New Planet Covered With *Marijuana*​
> 
> 
> 
> NASA has announced this morning that they have discovered a planet completely covered with marijuana, a discovery that has completely taken scientists by surprise.
> 
> Planet X637Z-43, discovered using NASA’s Kepler satellite, would also allegedly be one of the very few planets potentially habitable according to NASA experts, who have detected sufficient levels of oxygen and nitrogen to support human life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _NASA’S Kepler satellite has discovered a new planet covered with marijuana confirm experts_
> 
> The presence of marijuana on other planets could strongly encourage future generations to take interest in space exploration, some experts believe.
> 
> “We always think young people aren’t interested by anything but it’s false. Young people love smoking pot,” explains David Charbonneau, astronomer at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.
> 
> “Chlorophyll concentration analyses generated by Kepler lead us to believe that the level of THC in these marijuana plants is 3000% higher than the plants found on Earth. If that doesn’t motivate young people to explore space, I don’t know what will,” admits the expert, clearly enthusiastic.
> 
> “Regardless, marijuana will without a doubt be a valuable and indispensable resource for interstellar trips. Imagine if it takes 140 years to travel from one planet to another, let’s just say it’s going to be a very long trip. You better have rolled yourself a couple of joints for the road,” he admits with humor.
> 
> Since the discovery, NASA has launched a campaign on social medias to name the new planet and so far, the name Bob Marley has taken the lead with over 2 094 367 votes at the time of this report.



I think you need to cut back on your medicine.


----------



## Journeyman

John Tescione said:
			
		

> NASA Has Discovered A New Planet Covered With *Marijuana*



*FALSE*​anic:​(apparently, brutally large font and bright colours makes info more important  :nod:  )

*NASA Discovers New Planet Covered with Marijuana*
Sorry, but Planet X637Z-43 doesn't exist and therefore isn't a natural habitat for pot.  
Snopes


----------



## the 48th regulator

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I think you need to cut back on your medicine.



Uhuh,

I do....


----------



## the 48th regulator

Journeyman said:
			
		

> *FALSE*​anic:​(apparently, brutally large font and bright colours makes info more important  :nod:  )
> 
> *NASA Discovers New Planet Covered with Marijuana*
> Sorry, but Planet X637Z-43 doesn't exist and therefore isn't a natural habitat for pot.
> Snopes



Dang you Meddling Kids!!!!

See how outlandish both sides can appear, even though you make the fonts big in the title??  Pssst  ChiefStoker


----------



## Stoker

Actually I didn't do it gather attention, I just thought it was an interesting post as it was all over the news lately. I also bet a mate that you would be the first to comment. :rofl:


----------



## the 48th regulator

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Actually I didn't do it gather attention, I just thought it was an interesting post as it was all over the news lately. I also bet a mate that you would be the first to comment. :rofl:



There you go, I made you some Zum.

See us Pot heads are not that evil.  But you did read the part that said the syndrome was rare right?  OR did you just go for the headlines, so you can make a bet with a "Mate"?

 :-*


----------



## George Wallace

I wonder if this may be a problem with some, and the solution offered, the cure?

Little-known illness tied to smoking weed on the rise is an article on CBS news about cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, or CHS.


----------



## the 48th regulator

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I wonder if this may be a problem with some, and the solution offered, the cure?
> 
> Little-known illness tied to smoking weed on the rise is an article on CBS news about cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, or CHS.



Double post George, Chief Stoker already did it. 

Please pay attention to detail.


----------



## Journeyman

> .....recurrent nausea, vomiting, and crampy abdominal pain. It appears the that the main remedy for CHS symptoms is a hot shower.


My training wife experienced that too;  we called it "morning sickness."   :nod:


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

John Tescione said:
			
		

> There you go, I made you some Zum.
> 
> See us Pot heads are not that evil.  But you did read the part that said the syndrome was rare right?  OR did you just go for the headlines, so you can make a bet with a "Mate"?
> 
> :-*



Interesting, John. I've seen "Pot heads" as many things, but evil has never been one of them, Hilarious, entertaining: yes. Evil: never.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Interesting, John. I've seen "Pot heads" as many things, but evil has never been one of them, Hilarious, entertaining: yes. Evil: never.



You do know there is no font for sarcasm, right?  Which is why I tried to use a smiley.

Thanks for coming out......

 :subbies:


----------



## mariomike

:sarcasm:





			
				John Tescione said:
			
		

> You do know there is no font for sarcasm, right?


----------



## Stoker

John Tescione said:
			
		

> There you go, I made you some Zum.
> 
> See us Pot heads are not that evil.  But you did read the part that said the syndrome was rare right?  OR did you just go for the headlines, so you can make a bet with a "Mate"?
> 
> :-*



Actually they suspect its way more common as it went diagnosed in many people. Over at Green Veterans Canada they're calling it BS and a plot by big pharma even though some members there have experienced it.

BTW I'm not against MM use by those who truly need it and I have some friends who use it. What I am noticing is that anyone posts anything remotely negative about it, the backlash from the MM community about it being BS, or a plot by the government.


----------



## the 48th regulator

mariomike said:
			
		

> :sarcasm:



Psst,

Does it not defeat the purpose of Sarcasm if I have to use a big smiley for that???

 :dileas:


----------



## the 48th regulator

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Actually they suspect its way more common as it went diagnosed in many people. Over at Green Veterans Canada they're calling it BS and a plot by big pharma even though some members there have experienced it.
> 
> BTW I'm not against MM use by those who truly need it and I have some friends who use it. What I am noticing is that anyone posts anything remotely negative about it, the backlash from the MM community about it being BS, or a plot by the government.



You are a member of GVC???

Wow, I doid not know.  Excellent group.  The founder is an awesome guy too!

 ;D


----------



## mariomike

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> What I am noticing is that anyone posts anything remotely negative about it, the backlash from the MM community about it being BS, or a plot by the government.



I've never tried it. 
But, it's nice to see this thread has lasted 8 pages, and hopefully into 2017, without a lock!


----------



## the 48th regulator

mariomike said:
			
		

> I've never tried it.
> But, it's nice to see this thread has lasted 8 pages, and hopefully into 2017, without a lock!



Well said, well said!

(Not Sarcasm)


----------



## ModlrMike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I wonder if this may be a problem with some, and the solution offered, the cure?
> 
> Little-known illness tied to smoking weed on the rise is an article on CBS news about cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, or CHS.



Not really that new... it's been described in the medial literature since at least 1974. I typically see 2-3 cases per month. Despite what users might claim, it is a real condition, and has recognizable symptoms:

- chronic use, typically every day over several years (mean 9.6 years, low 3, high 16 years);
- crampy, epigastric or periumbical abdominal pain;
- age typically <50 (mean age 23), although this is expected to rise;
- symptoms predominate in the morning during the prodromal phase (months to years);
- normal bowel habits (in contrast to most other abdominal pain/vomiting presentations); 
- normal laboratory, radiographic, and endoscopic test results;
- compulsive bathing to alleviate symptoms (a pathognomonic symptom); and
- resolution of symptoms upon cessation of cannabis.

The syndrome is thought to be caused by disregulation of the hypothalamus (hence the compulsive bathing). The current opinion on the mechanism is that cannabinoids are fat soluble, so a slow rise to toxicity takes place. Haloperidol at the anit-nauseant dose (2.5mg IV) is highly effective.

Sufferers are almost universal in their belief that their cannabis consumption is not to blame. What they misunderstand is the concept of a paradoxical drug reaction. Where low dose cannabis does have anti-emetic and appetite enhancing properties, over consumption can turn this completely around. Cannabis is not the only drug that produces paradoxical reactions. We frequently see a similar phenomenon with Gravol (Dimenhydrinate) overdose for example. Where you would expect profound sedation, you actually get considerable excitation and agitation (people who overdose on Gravol are quite literally stark raving mad). Benzodiazepines and some classes of antidepressants are also known to produce paradoxical reactions.


Here's a 2011 paper if you want to read more.


The foregoing is provided solely for educational purposes. It is not meant as a commentary on the appropriateness of cannabis use.


----------



## the 48th regulator

https://www.greenrushdaily.com/2015/11/11/long-term-effects-countries-legalized-marijuana/

Reefer Revolution: Your Guide to International Marijuana Law

We could very well be on the brink of a worldwide reefer revolution. Not only are more and more states in the U.S. starting to consider legalizing pot for medical and recreational uses, but more and more countries around the world are also starting to rethink marijuana law and consider the positive possibilities of pot.





Mexico’s Supreme Court just ruled in favor of people growing their own marijuana plants for personal use and Canada’s new Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has been especially open about his support of legalizing cannabis. Hopefully the U.S.’s pot smoking neighbors can help put the pressure on to fully legalize.

Either way, though, it seems like the weed wave is starting and we need ride it all the way to hemp heaven!

Right now, here are the countries where it’s fully legal to possess weed:

    Colombia
    Spain
    The Netherlands
    North Korea
    Uruguay





And here’s where it’s either been decriminalized or legalized for only certain types of use:

    Germany
    Argentina
    Botswana
    Belize
    India
    U.S.
    Cyprus
    Czech Republic
    Puerto Rico
    Austria
    Italy
    Croatia
    Costa Rica
    Virgin Islands
    Russia
    Ukraine
    Peru
    Belgium
    Ecuador
    Bolivia
    Cambodia
    Chile
    Estonia
    Jamaica
    Mexico
    Portugal
    Slovenia
    Switzerland
    Australia
    Canada
    Lithuania

While there are still way too many countries where weed is straight up outlawed, the list of good guys seems to be growing. And it will continue to grow the more we see the positive effects of legalizing marijuana.





Here are the top 5 most important long-term effects on countries that have legalized marijuana:

#1: Fewer Resources Wasted.

One of the most expensive campaigns anywhere is the “war on drugs.” Countries around the globe waste millions upon millions of dollars every year trying to bust people for pot—for something that 158.8 million people both participate in and support.

And here’s the really sick thing: all that money spent trying to bust people for peacefully using something that grows out of the earth is money that could have been spent helping lives not destroying them.

It could have been spent on things like education, healthcare, housing, healthy food and water, and on and on….The main point is that in a world where basic resources are so unevenly distributed, it’s complete madness to spend so much time and money trying to bust people for getting high and using medicine.

#2: Less Violence. Period.

We’re all familiar with the anti-pot pundits who try to scare everyone by talking about how much violence cannabis use will somehow create.

Anybody who tells you that is flat-out lying. Countries around the world—as well as states in the U.S.—that have legalized marijuana have consistently seen a decrease in violence.

As Alternet puts it:

“Most ‘drug-related’ violence stems not from drug use, but from drug prohibition. The mass killings in Mexico and in many U.S. cities are not from marijuana or other drug use, but because the plants are worth more than gold and people are willing to kill each other over the profits to be made.”

#3: More Freedom. 

And I don’t just mean freedom as in the freedom to do what you want, the freedom to get high if you want to.

That type of freedom is obviously important and that type of freedom definitely exists more in countries that have legalized pot.

I also mean literal freedom. At least one person gets arrested for some sort of marijuana “crime” every 45 seconds—that’s a sh*t ton of people needlessly getting arrested and having their freedoms in some way limited.

#4: Stronger Economies.

Places that have legalized marijuana are making bank! Cannabis-friendly cafes in The Netherlands, for example, make $3.2 billion every year, which means the Dutch government pulls in more than $600 million in taxes.

Stats in Colorado are saying pretty much the same thing. Economists there estimate that just two dispensaries create 280 jobs with an average paycheck of $17/hr. and generate $30 million of total economic activity.

Long-Term Effects on Countries That Have Legalized Marijuana
Save

Daaaaaammn! That’s a lot of green!

#5: Safer for Stoners.

This last one’s just you for you, the Green Rush Daily stoners. If you’re spending any time on this site, then obviously, the thing that’s probably most important to you in this whole conversation is simply that in countries where weed is legal or decriminalized, it’s easier and safer to enjoy your herb. For potheads around the world, it’s time to light one up and take a puff in solidarity—it’s high time we legalized this amazing little plant!

For potheads around the world, it’s time to light one up and take a puff in solidarity—it’s high time we legalized this amazing little plant!


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> I've never tried it.
> But, it's nice to see this thread has lasted 8 pages, and hopefully into 2017, without a lock!


*looks at watch*
challenge accepted!


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *looks at watch*
> challenge accepted!


----------



## larry Strong

Hehehe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ealU0LM9oE




Cheers
Larry


----------



## the 48th regulator

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Not really that new... it's been described in the medial literature since at least 1974. I typically see 2-3 cases per month. Despite what users might claim, it is a real condition, and has recognizable symptoms:
> 
> - chronic use, typically every day over several years (mean 9.6 years, low 3, high 16 years);
> - crampy, epigastric or periumbical abdominal pain;
> - age typically <50 (mean age 23), although this is expected to rise;
> - symptoms predominate in the morning during the prodromal phase (months to years);
> - normal bowel habits (in contrast to most other abdominal pain/vomiting presentations);
> - normal laboratory, radiographic, and endoscopic test results;
> - compulsive bathing to alleviate symptoms (a pathognomonic symptom); and
> - resolution of symptoms upon cessation of cannabis.
> 
> The syndrome is thought to be caused by disregulation of the hypothalamus (hence the compulsive bathing). The current opinion on the mechanism is that cannabinoids are fat soluble, so a slow rise to toxicity takes place. Haloperidol at the anit-nauseant dose (2.5mg IV) is highly effective.
> 
> Sufferers are almost universal in their belief that their cannabis consumption is not to blame. What they misunderstand is the concept of a paradoxical drug reaction. Where low dose cannabis does have anti-emetic and appetite enhancing properties, over consumption can turn this completely around. Cannabis is not the only drug that produces paradoxical reactions. We frequently see a similar phenomenon with Gravol (Dimenhydrinate) overdose for example. Where you would expect profound sedation, you actually get considerable excitation and agitation (people who overdose on Gravol are quite literally stark raving mad). Benzodiazepines and some classes of antidepressants are also known to produce paradoxical reactions.
> 
> 
> Here's a 2011 paper if you want to read more.
> 
> 
> The foregoing is provided solely for educational purposes. It is not meant as a commentary on the appropriateness of cannabis use.



Has there been any direction towrds investigating possible Azadirachtin Poisoning in your studies, rather than people suffering from Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome(CHS)?

I would be curious to know, since you see so many patience that suffer from this on a monthly basis.  The Mayo clinic did a study on 98 patients, you in the last year have reach a possible 36 which is significant.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neem_oil     [Azadirachtin ]

Uses[edit]

Neem oil is not used for cooking purposes. In India, it is used for preparing cosmetics (soap, hair products, body hygiene creams, hand creams) and in Ayurvedic, Unani and folklore traditional medicine, in the treatment of a wide range of afflictions. The most frequently reported indications in ancient Ayurvedic writings are skin diseases, inflammations and fevers, and more recently rheumatic disorders.

Traditional Ayurvedic uses of neem include the treatment of acne, fever, leprosy, malaria, ophthalmia and tuberculosis. Various folk remedies for neem include use as an anthelmintic, antifeedant, antiseptic, diuretic, emmenagogue, contraceptive, febrifuge, parasiticide, pediculocide and insecticide. It has been used in traditional medicine for the treatment of tetanus, urticaria, eczema, scrofula and erysipelas. Traditional routes of administration of neem extracts included oral, vaginal and topical use. Neem oil has an extensive history of human use in India and surrounding regions for a variety of therapeutic purposes. Puri (1999) has given an account of traditional uses and therapeutic indications and pharmacological studies of this oil, in his book on neem.[2]

Cancer drug[edit]

A recently released study (2016) by the National University of Singapore that a compound derived from Neem oil holds promise in shrinking prostate tumors.[7]
[more on link]

Wait, it does a lot the same thing pot does but yet it can cause poisoning?  What if..........................?  Naaaaaaaaaw....


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neem_oil     [Azadirachtin ]
> 
> Uses[edit]
> 
> Neem oil is not used for cooking purposes. In India, it is used for preparing cosmetics (soap, hair products, body hygiene creams, hand creams) and in Ayurvedic, Unani and folklore traditional medicine, in the treatment of a wide range of afflictions. The most frequently reported indications in ancient Ayurvedic writings are skin diseases, inflammations and fevers, and more recently rheumatic disorders.
> 
> Traditional Ayurvedic uses of neem include the treatment of acne, fever, leprosy, malaria, ophthalmia and tuberculosis. Various folk remedies for neem include use as an anthelmintic, antifeedant, antiseptic, diuretic, emmenagogue, contraceptive, febrifuge, parasiticide, pediculocide and insecticide. It has been used in traditional medicine for the treatment of tetanus, urticaria, eczema, scrofula and erysipelas. Traditional routes of administration of neem extracts included oral, vaginal and topical use. Neem oil has an extensive history of human use in India and surrounding regions for a variety of therapeutic purposes. Puri (1999) has given an account of traditional uses and therapeutic indications and pharmacological studies of this oil, in his book on neem.[2]
> 
> Cancer drug[edit]
> 
> A recently released study (2016) by the National University of Singapore that a compound derived from Neem oil holds promise in shrinking prostate tumors.[7]
> [more on link]
> 
> Wait, it does a lot the same thing pot does but yet it can cause poisoning?  What if..........................?  Naaaaaaaaaw....



I was wondering where you were.....

https://steemit.com/cannabis/@thecleangame/cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome-chs-is-azadirachtin-poisoning-tralawar-s-post-reminded-me-to-post-this-ty-tralawar

https://thecleangame.net/2015/12/cannabis-hyperemesis-actually-azadirachtin-poisoning/

You just try too hard Lad....


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neem_oil     [Azadirachtin ]
> 
> Uses[edit]
> 
> Neem oil is not used for cooking purposes. In India, it is used for preparing cosmetics (soap, hair products, body hygiene creams, hand creams) and in Ayurvedic, Unani and folklore traditional medicine, in the treatment of a wide range of afflictions. The most frequently reported indications in ancient Ayurvedic writings are skin diseases, inflammations and fevers, and more recently rheumatic disorders.
> 
> Traditional Ayurvedic uses of neem include the treatment of acne, fever, leprosy, malaria, ophthalmia and tuberculosis. Various folk remedies for neem include use as an anthelmintic, antifeedant, antiseptic, diuretic, emmenagogue, contraceptive, febrifuge, parasiticide, pediculocide and insecticide. It has been used in traditional medicine for the treatment of tetanus, urticaria, eczema, scrofula and erysipelas. Traditional routes of administration of neem extracts included oral, vaginal and topical use. Neem oil has an extensive history of human use in India and surrounding regions for a variety of therapeutic purposes. Puri (1999) has given an account of traditional uses and therapeutic indications and pharmacological studies of this oil, in his book on neem.[2]
> 
> Cancer drug[edit]
> 
> A recently released study (2016) by the National University of Singapore that a compound derived from Neem oil holds promise in shrinking prostate tumors.[7]
> [more on link]
> 
> Wait, it does a lot the same thing pot does but yet it can cause poisoning?  What if..........................?  Naaaaaaaaaw....



One more link for you to chew on,

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=Azadirachtin+Poisoning+and+cannabis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjjkN72mZ3RAhUq5oMKHU3jBAQQgQMIGDAA

That should keep you busy for awhile, as we have a civilized discussion here.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Not really that new... it's been described in the medial literature since at least 1974. I typically see 2-3 cases per month. Despite what users might claim, it is a real condition, and has recognizable symptoms:



From your link here.....https://steemit.com/cannabis/@thecleangame/cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome-chs-is-azadirachtin-poisoning-tralawar-s-post-reminded-me-to-post-this-ty-tralawar

Azadirachtin Was First Synthesized A Little Over Ten Years Ago

I chewed....


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> From your link here.....https://steemit.com/cannabis/@thecleangame/cannabis-hyperemesis-syndrome-chs-is-azadirachtin-poisoning-tralawar-s-post-reminded-me-to-post-this-ty-tralawar
> 
> Azadirachtin Was First Synthesized A Little Over Ten Years Ago
> 
> I chewed....



Since you like to scrutinize, well my posts for sure, can you link to me where it states 1974 was the first instance of CHS.

You seem to be good at finding that fly shit in the pepper.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Since I quoted ModlrMike for that, who is a trained medical professional, I'll let him answer.

Don't really want unqualified people spouting made-up info........I mean I drink Fireball, but I sure wouldn't consider myself an expert because I enjoy it so much.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Since I quoted ModlrMike for that, who is a trained medical professional, I'll let him answer.
> 
> Don't really want unqualified people spouting made-up info........I mean I drink Fireball, but I sure wouldn't consider myself an expert because I enjoy it so much.



You don't really want unqualified people spouting made up info.....

Says the man quoting from Wikipedia.

 :facepalm:

I am trying to have a conversation with him, and you keep interfering, trying to start a fight with me.  Puhleeze Son.   Trundle off and bother someone over in Radio Chatter.


----------



## the 48th regulator

https://www.leafly.ca/news/health/what-is-cannabinoid-hyperemesis-syndrome


What is Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome?

Bailey Rahn

I used cannabis for nausea without realizing it might actually have been the cause of it. Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome (also known as cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, or CHS) is a recently discovered, poorly understood condition theoretically caused by heavy, long-term cannabis use. Its acute “hyperemetic” phase is characterized by vomiting, nausea, severe gastrointestinal discomfort, and compulsive bathing, although it may be preceded by a period of milder symptoms like morning nausea, consistent urges to vomit, and abdominal pain.

When I read about this condition in a 2011 study from Temple University, I nearly fell out of my chair. I’ve been using cannabis medicinally for the last five years to treat morning sickness, nausea, and intestinal pain. A conversation with an ex came to mind. He used to antagonistically pose theories that cannabis might be what’s causing the problems, to which I would respond with a heated and defensive, “Cannabis is the only thing that helps, why the hell would it be causing it?!”

Top 10 Strains to Combat Crohn’s Disease and Colitis

Fast-forward one year to a discussion with my budtender who recently experienced the acute phase of the condition. As per her doctor’s recommendation, she set cannabis aside and within a few weeks, she made a full recovery. My friend’s symptoms were so much more severe than mine, it never occurred to me that I might be experiencing early stages of the same condition.

In fact, it took a long, hard look at the research for me to admit that the condition might even exist at all.
Research on Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome

The earliest focused study on the cannabinoid hyperemesis phenomenon appears to be in 2004, when Australian researchers noticed a commonality among patients experiencing cyclical vomiting symptoms: chronic cannabis use. Seven out of ten subjects who abstained from cannabis resolved their cyclical vomiting symptoms; the other three participants refused to abstain and their symptoms continued.

Small case studies surfaced in the years following, demonstrating similar patterns:

    In 2009, a 22-year old cannabis consumer exhibited CHS symptoms in a U.K. case study. His symptoms resolved following cannabis cessation.
    Two more cases in 2009 that matched CHS criteria were recorded. Severe symptoms improved following 24 to 48 hours after cannabis cessation.
    A 42-year old chronic cannabis user was CHS symptom-free 3 months after his diagnosis, according to a 2014 U.K. case study.

Cannabinoids 101: What Makes Cannabis Medicine?

The appearance of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome in medical literature is rare for two reasons: (a) the condition has only recently been acknowledged and named, and (b) CHS – as a result – is likely to have been misdiagnosed as cyclical vomiting syndrome (CVS). Though rarely seen in study papers, personal stories are beginning to bubble up in media reports and by word-of-mouth.

I asked a number of doctors to share any cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome patient information they had on hand, but it seemed that cannabis doctors were the only ones even privy to the condition at all. With 33 million Americans consuming cannabis, we can only hope that researchers and medical professionals will start to explore the many questions tied to this condition.
What are Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome Signs and Symptoms?

Among patients diagnosed with cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, most tend to be “young adults with a long history of cannabis use,” according to the 2011 Temple study.

    “In nearly all cases there is a delay of several years in the onset of symptoms preceded by chronic marijuana abuse. Daily marijuana use is characteristic and often reported as exceeding three to five times per day.”

As previously mentioned, researchers have proposed CHS be characterized by three phases.
1. Prodromal Phase

Typically months or years before exhibiting severe cyclical vomiting symptoms, the patient experiences:

    Morning sickness
    Abdominal pain and discomfort
    Nausea and fear of vomiting

Appetite is typically unaffected during this phase, but researchers note that consumers tend to administer more cannabis as a nausea remedy.

The Science of Munchies: Why Does Cannabis Stimulate Your Appetite?

2. Hyperemetic Phase

The acute phase of the illness is characterized by an intensification of effects and unique behaviors:

    Persistent nausea and vomiting that can last for hours at a time
    Frequent retching, up to five times an hour
    Abdominal pain
    Weight loss
    Dehydration
    Habitual bathing and/or showering

Why the compulsive bathing and showering? Hot temperatures are known to relieve the nausea and vomiting associated with CHS. The reasons why are not well developed, but researchers propose that “hot bathing may act by correcting the cannabis-induced equilibrium of the thermoregulatory system of the hypothalamus.”

What are the Best Cannabis Strains for Pain?

A 2014 review offers further explanation:

    “The brain may react to changes in core body temperature due to the dose-dependent hypothermic effects of [THC]. Alternatively, the bathing behaviour may be a result of direct CB1 receptor activation in the hypothalamus by [THC] or another active compound and may not necessarily be a response to changes in core body temperature.”

3. Recovery Phase

After halting cannabis use (the only cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome “treatment” option), patients typically recover in a matter of days, weeks, or months. Nausea ceases, appetite resumes, body weight is regained, and bathing/showering regimen returns to normal.
Why Would Cannabis Cause the Symptoms that Characterize CHS?

Though it will take a lot more research to evolve theory to fact, scientists at Temple University have a few leads on why cannabis might cause nausea and vomiting, upsetting what we’ve come to expect from our favorite anti-nausea remedy.

Cannabis may help us feel less nauseous by activating specific parts of the central nervous system, but what else might be happening in the gut itself? According to study authors from Temple University, activation of CB1 receptors (primarily by THC) may result in the following gastrointestinal actions:

    Inhibition of gastric acid secretion
    Lower esophageal sphincter relaxation
    Altered intestinal motility
    Visceral pain
    Inflammation
    Reduces gastric motility
    Delays gastric emptying

These mechanisms are all ingredients in a theory that is yet to be baked, but it presents an interesting paradox – that THC, when consumed heavily and over a long period of time, may exert anti-emetic properties on the brain, but cause nausea via its effect on the gut.

Can a Tolerance Break Rejuvenate the Effects of Cannabis?

The study also mentions a tangle of interactions between two secondary cannabinoids found in cannabis, CBD and CBG. They write:

    “In animals the effect of CBD on toxin-induced vomiting displays a biphasic response with low doses producing an anti-emetic effect whereas higher doses enhance vomiting. Cannabigerol (CBG) is a non-psychotropic cannabinoid that behaves as an antagonist at both the CB1 and 5-HT1A receptors. This antagonism reverses the anti-emetic actions of low-dose CBD, which likely occurs at the 5-HT1A receptor. The pro-emetic properties of CBD (at higher doses) and CBG may play a role in the severe nausea and vomiting observed in patients with Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome.”

To reiterate, these are theories, not proven or substantiated results. These ideas pull from a patchwork of cannabis research – some from animal models and others from human trials. For this reason, it’s important to take this report and related case studies with a grain of salt.

Medical Professionals are Still Skeptical on Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome

The proposals and theories put forth by researchers are compelling, but some medical professionals remain skeptical.

Authors of a 2006 review out of Australia criticize the original 2004 research that defined cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome for poor study design and for misattributing increases in cannabis use to liberalized laws.

“Cannabis has been consumed for many centuries and is currently used by millions of people in many countries,” the authors wrote. “It is hard to believe that a distinctive syndrome caused by cannabis has never been noted before by users or clinicians.”

I spoke to a doctor from Green Leaf Health Care here in Seattle, wondering what his take on the research was. He, too, showed a degree of skepticism and offered another possible explanation.

“I have an additional theory which is that cannabis grown with chemicals is affecting people in various ways, [and] this may be one of them,” he said. “I've traveled through India and Asia extensively and know heavy long-term users without ever having issues regarding hyperemesis. Perhaps long term use and concentrated levels could produce these issues in certain susceptible individuals; however, I feel like it's more of a chemical issue.”

The fact of the matter is, we don’t have enough research to show if or why cannabis is the cause of these symptoms. What we do know is that there are people out there who benefit from cutting back on their intake or ceasing altogether. It may be purely coincidence that my cutting back coincided with a gastrointestinal recovery. We can’t know why halting cannabis use helped my friend, or why she gets sick when she tries to resume. All we know is there’s a possibility of connection, and that successfully bridging such a connection holds important implications for those who use cannabis every day.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I could care less about a "fight".........this is a forum for debate.

You have your thread that no one can post in but you so why not just stay there?


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I could care less about a "fight".........this is a forum for debate.
> 
> You have your thread that no one can post in but you so why not just stay there?



You are really sad.


----------



## Stoker

John Tescione said:
			
		

> You are really sad.



Whats really sad is the state of denial of the MM community when something negative is mentioned about MM. Its probably a good thing that VAC is cutting you back to 3 grams a day as higher doses is causing problems.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Whats really sad is the state of denial of the MM community when something negative is mentioned about MM. Its probably a good thing that VAC is cutting you back to 3 grams a day as higher doses is causing problems.



This is the second time you have taken to attack me personally.

First you admitted to posting, and betting a friend to see how soon I would post.  Now you are saying it is a good thing my therapy is cut back. 

I would suggest you stay in your lanes, as that is a violation of the forums rules.  If you want to particpate in this discussion, good.  If you want to use it to bait me into a fight, not going to happen pal.  

I hope one day, your therapy gets cut back.  Then you will see how painful it can be.


----------



## Harris

OK.  Everyone to their own corner at least until the new year.  We don't require yet another thread with people bashing each other about Cannabis.  You want to fight it out, do so via PMs.  We (The rest of the site members and staff) are getting tired of it.  Big Fonts and questionable articles (in some cases) don't cut it.  Proper, respectful debate does.  If you can't do that then go elsewhere.

I'll unlock in a few days.

STAFF


----------



## Harris

Unlocked.  If it turns into another slugfest then it gets locked again.

Staff


----------



## mariomike

I'm not a doctor. Just something I read,

Patient smokes a lot of pot? Has severe abdominal pain and violent vomiting?
Dx: Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mysterious-marijuana-flu-emergency-rooms_us_5869d6bee4b0eb586489f7e6
Mysterious Marijuana-Related Illness Popping Up In Emergency Rooms
The vomiting illness is increasing in states with legal pot.


----------



## medicineman

mariomike said:
			
		

> I'm not a doctor. Just something I read,
> 
> Patient smokes a lot of pot? Has severe abdominal pain and violent vomiting?
> Dx: Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mysterious-marijuana-flu-emergency-rooms_us_5869d6bee4b0eb586489f7e6
> Mysterious Marijuana-Related Illness Popping Up In Emergency Rooms
> The vomiting illness is increasing in states with legal pot.



I see it once or twice a month in my ER.  People look at you like you're a four headed alien when you tell them what the problem is.

MM


----------



## Stoker

So obviously there is something to Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome despite the opinions of some. For the record i'm not against its use as a medicine for veterans as long as VAC carefully regulates its use. The fact that VAC on the advice of Health Canada has cut the limit from 10 grams a day to 3 with the option to raise the limit on a recommendation from a doctor is very sound advice in my opinion.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> So obviously there is something to Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome despite the opinions of some. For the record i'm not against its use as a medicine for veterans as long as VAC carefully regulates its use. The fact that VAC on the advice of Health Canada has cut the limit from 10 grams a day to 3 with the option to raise the limit on a recommendation from a doctor is very sound advice in my opinion.



Any treatment plan should involve eventual cessation of use, giving someone any drug willy nilly without any comprehensive action plan is a recipe for disaster, the rise of opioid addiction is a perfect example of that.  Doctors cutting blank cheques on drugs is not what people need.


----------



## Stoker

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Any treatment plan should involve eventual cessation of use, giving someone any drug willy nilly without any comprehensive action plan is a recipe for disaster, the rise of opioid addiction is a perfect example of that.  Doctors cutting blank cheques on drugs is not what people need.



From what I have read VAC became alarmed when there was sizable increase of prescriptions and something like 53% of 1300 patients was from four doctors. I know from reading that many doctors do not prescribe because of the health risks of MM and often patients will flock to doctors that are more sympathetic which makes sense. Looking at the online forums many users will offer advice to which doctors to use. Because MM is a drug and is addictive although not as much as other drugs, I would imagine cessation is not an option for many.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-places-three-gram-limit-on-amount-of-medical-pot-it-covers-for-veterans/article32976065/


----------



## PuckChaser

Its not just the unknown long term effects of heavy MM use that are scary, the limited Health Canada oversight on this herbal remedy is showing some toxic/banned pesticides being used in production:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadians-not-told-about-banned-pesticide-found-in-medical-marijuana-supply/article33443887/



> Canadians not told about banned pesticide found in medical pot supply
> 
> Grant Robertson
> 
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Published Thursday, Dec. 29, 2016 5:00AM EST
> Last updated Thursday, Dec. 29, 2016 6:40AM EST
> 
> A controversial pesticide banned in Canada has been discovered in products sold by a federally licensed medical marijuana producer, The Globe and Mail has learned, but neither the company nor Health Canada have informed the public.
> 
> Myclobutanil, a chemical that is also prohibited for use on legal cannabis in Colorado, Washington and Oregon because of health concerns, was found in product recently recalled by Mettrum Ltd., a Toronto-based medical marijuana company.
> 
> The pesticide is not approved for use on plants that are combusted, such as tobacco or cannabis, and is known to emit hydrogen cyanide when heated. Lawmakers in the three U.S. states moved quickly to ban myclobutanil, in some cases enacting emergency legislation when they discovered growers using it.
> 
> But the lack of public disclosure by Health Canada raises new questions about what controls are in place to ensure the product is free of contaminants and chemicals, particularly as the government prepares to introduce legislation to legalize the drug next year.
> 
> A Globe investigation this summer called into question the department’s ability to detect potentially dangerous contaminants, and revealed that Health Canada standards at the time did not require testing for myclobutanil and other banned chemicals.
> 
> The Mettrum discovery was made recently, when a random screening of the company’s products by Health Canada turned up the unauthorized use of pyrethrin, a pesticide derived from the chrysanthemum plant that is also not approved for medical cannabis.
> 
> Mettrum issued a voluntary recall of the affected products on Nov. 1 and said the pyrethrin was used by mistake, because it was not listed on the ingredients of a spray the company was using.
> 
> But when Health Canada performed further tests on the samples, it also discovered they contained myclobutanil, which all producers know is a banned substance. However, for reasons that are not immediately clear, neither Health Canada nor Mettrum announced the findings to the public.



The full Globe investigation is here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/globe-investigation-whats-in-your-weed-we-tested-dispensary-marijuana-to-findout/article31144496/


----------



## Stoker

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Its not just the unknown long term effects of heavy MM use that are scary, the limited Health Canada oversight on this herbal remedy is showing some toxic/banned pesticides being used in production:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadians-not-told-about-banned-pesticide-found-in-medical-marijuana-supply/article33443887/
> 
> The full Globe investigation is here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/globe-investigation-whats-in-your-weed-we-tested-dispensary-marijuana-to-findout/article31144496/



Wow that's a real health hazard. You would think in a industry for MM  a better product would be produced. They better clean up their act and have better QC before this goes mainstream.


----------



## medicineman

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Any treatment plan should involve eventual cessation of use, giving someone any drug willy nilly without any comprehensive action plan is a recipe for disaster, the rise of opioid addiction is a perfect example of that.  Doctors cutting blank cheques on drugs is not what people need.



Agreed...see a little too much of that these days, and not just with narcotics.

MM


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

So is the problem not so much end-users, but the seeming never-ending supply of Doctors who just want you 'in and out' quickly and to make sure you return to the office for more fast billings, keep you addicted to something/anything?

A snippet from an article RG posted in the info thread.


			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Yet the report does appear to undercut one of the main arguments put forward by those pushing for access to medical marijuana, namely that it reduces the use of painkillers and other drugs among veterans.
> The auditors found a negligible change in the use of prescription drugs, including narcotics and opiates, by injured ex-soldiers who started receiving medical marijuana.



Now I only know a handful of MM users but the point seems to be that it has taken them off 'harder' drugs.[if you will]  But this, according to the article, doesn't seem to be the standard.  I know where I work I have advocated over and over that they come off everything and we try to 'start over' with a clean slate.........but heavens forbid a Doctor steps on another Doctor's toes, so lets just add my 2 cents worth of drugs to the mix.  

I wish I could share lots more about this story but can't........quick synopsis,...severe ADHD,....came off everything and within a month of repeated 'Groundhog Days' my partner and I had him sitting and reading books in the day room.  The original plan??   Adding something.....

We put Doctors up on a pedestal too much, these days they have no more access to information then 'average' people.


----------



## Stoker

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> So is the problem not so much end-users, but the seeming never-ending supply of Doctors who just want you 'in and out' quickly and to make sure you return to the office for more fast billings, keep you addicted to something/anything?
> 
> A snippet from an article RG posted in the info thread.
> 
> Now I only know a handful of MM users but the point seems to be that it has taken them off 'harder' drugs.[if you will]  But this, according to the article, doesn't seem to be the standard.  I know where I work I have advocated over and over that they come off everything and we try to 'start over' with a clean slate.........but heavens forbid a Doctor steps on another Doctor's toes, so lets just add my 2 cents worth of drugs to the mix.
> 
> I wish I could share lots more about this story but can't........quick synopsis,...severe ADHD,....came off everything and within a month of repeated 'Groundhog Days' my partner and I had him sitting and reading books in the day room.  The original plan??   Adding something.....
> 
> We put Doctors up on a pedestal too much, these days they have no more access to information then 'average' people.



From what I have read some have gotten off up to 15 pills a day and now only use MM. To play devils advocate here with someone overusing MM is there not a danger of going to harder drugs? Some of the concerns with MM is the amount of veterans using up to 10 grams a day from the get go when a lower amount would sufficed. No matter how you slice it, MM is an addictive drug and has hazards, perhaps less than what is prescribed by doctors but hazardous all the same.


----------



## mariomike

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> To play devils advocate here with someone overusing MM is there not a danger of going to harder drugs?



I'm not an expert. But, I have heard that before,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Twre6ItGEI


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> From what I have read some have gotten off up to 15 pills a day and now only use MM.



Now even though I'm not sold on MM.....that would be in the 'win' column in my book.   Then like others have previously stated......a program to slowly lower, like methadone is supposed to be.


----------



## Stoker

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now even though I'm not sold on MM.....that would be in the 'win' column in my book.   Then like others have previously stated......a program to slowly lower, like methadone is supposed to be.



Bruce I agree but I think there will be a outcry from the MM community and that's the problem with a addictive drug.


----------



## BinRat55

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> From what I have read some have gotten off up to 15 pills a day and now only use MM. To play devils advocate here with someone overusing MM is there not a danger of going to harder drugs? Some of the concerns with MM is the amount of veterans using up to 10 grams a day from the get go when a lower amount would sufficed. No matter how you slice it, MM is an addictive drug and has hazards, perhaps less than what is prescribed by doctors but hazardous all the same.



Again, while I wasn't born yesterday I am under no illusion that there isn't abuse out there - human nature, sad but true. Marijuana is not a verified "gateway" drug. Used recreationally, users experience a high. I honestly believe that there are people with an "addictive" tendency who will attempt to either duplicate the high using another drug or better it. With me (and I will assume many other MM users) I am not looking for the high, but the effect on my demons. 

To say that a "lower amount would have sufficed" is not a call any one of us can make really - I don't roll and smoke I bake, infuse and brew as well as manufacture capsules and vape from time to time. For me, 5 gr daily is literally just enough. I fear later on that my tolerance will increase and I will be forced to not only ask for more, but justify it to EVERYONE who feels they need to question whether or not I am a "pot head".

I was on Effexor, Paxil, Zoloft, Teva-Praxin, Wellbutrin, Trazadone, Zopaclone... and one more that I can't seem to remember at the moment... I don't frigging care WHO you are - this is a zombie cocktail from hell. And I STILL suffered from debilitating nightmares, cold sweats and at times, uncontrollable shakes. And that was just at night! I never had a solid shit for over a year. When you hold that many pills in your hand, you stare at them for minutes. Nausea sets in at the thought of having to take them. There were days I couldn't even get them all down. I cannot stress enough to those who have never had to go through this - I really don't care if I'm saving the government money or costing them more - we are veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and we deserve to feel somewhat normal.

I no longer have "pill anxiety" as I no longer take ANY pills. I am recovering, learning and living once more.

Thank you Fabian Henry.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Bruce I agree but I think there will be a outcry from the MM community and that's the problem with a addictive drug.




Sorry, but that's too broad a brush.   The MEDIA would only give airtime to those who complain.........just like any subject you can think of.

A thousand people protesting that I'm a stooge would make the front page but the 34 million who just plain adore me and stayed home don't exist. ;D


----------



## PuckChaser

Found this on CTV today. While some may glance over the info, the article starts asking some real good questions and provide some info on how fast the MM industry is growing, and perhaps taking vets for a ride. Highlights in quotes are all from same link:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/hundreds-of-veterans-likely-affected-by-federal-cuts-to-medicinal-pot-allotment-1.3226332



> The figures are contained in an internal Veterans Affairs Canada audit that raises broad questions about the use of pot by veterans, including claims that it reduces the use of painkillers and other addictive drugs.
> 
> ...
> 
> The number of clients - and the associated cost - has exploded since 2014, when regulatory changes at Health Canada and a new Veterans Affairs policy allowed up to 10 grams per veteran per day.
> 
> According to the audit, more than 1,700 injured ex-soldiers were being reimbursed for medical marijuana as of the end of last March. Just 26 per cent were getting three grams or less each day.
> 
> The auditors did not say why such large amounts of marijuana were being authorized, but they did find that hundreds of veterans had started with between eight and 10 grams per day right off the bat.
> 
> Interviews with frontline staff, meanwhile, found veterans taking one to two grams per day, "at appropriate times, are managing well."
> 
> ...
> 
> Anyone requiring more than three grams can submit an application to the department along with a note from a medical specialist.
> 
> ...
> 
> Part of the challenge has been the widespread anecdotal evidence from veterans about the benefits of medical weed versus the lack of scientific proof, particularly when it comes to mental injuries like PTSD.
> 
> Yet the report does appear to undercut one of the main arguments put forward by those pushing for access to medical marijuana, namely that it reduces the use of painkillers and other drugs among veterans.
> 
> The auditors found a negligible change in the use of prescription drugs, including narcotics and opiates, by injured ex-soldiers who started receiving medical marijuana.
> 
> The report also found that more than 200 veterans had received authorization for medical marijuana from a doctor or nurse who was outside their home province.
> 
> One possible explanation was that the veteran worked in a different province than they lived, the report said, though it was also possible their regular doctor would not approve them getting pot.



Interestingly enough, Marijuana for Trauma (2013) was formed just before the explosion of vets getting MM prescriptions. You cannot advertise prescription medication in Canada, yet these groups are allowed to flaunt that law and push meds directly to patients? Massive issues with doctors being paid to write scripts for certain meds in Canada to get kickbacks.

Why should such a large number of people immediately go right to the maximum covered dosage?

If MM is the perfect PTSD/Pain medication, why is there a negligible change in narcotic painkiller prescriptions once those individuals are prescribed MM?

We deride VAC employees who are not doctors making medical pronouncements on our injuries, but let random people on the internet and in "Healing Centers" tell us what drugs to take and how much.


----------



## Stoker

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Found this on CTV today. While some may glance over the info, the article starts asking some real good questions and provide some info on how fast the MM industry is growing, and perhaps taking vets for a ride. Highlights in quotes are all from same link:
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/hundreds-of-veterans-likely-affected-by-federal-cuts-to-medicinal-pot-allotment-1.3226332
> 
> Interestingly enough, Marijuana for Trauma (2013) was formed just before the explosion of vets getting MM prescriptions. You cannot advertise prescription medication in Canada, yet these groups are allowed to flaunt that law and push meds directly to patients? Massive issues with doctors being paid to write scripts for certain meds in Canada to get kickbacks.
> 
> Why should such a large number of people immediately go right to the maximum covered dosage?
> 
> If MM is the perfect PTSD/Pain medication, why is there a negligible change in narcotic painkiller prescriptions once those individuals are prescribed MM?
> 
> We deride VAC employees who are not doctors making medical pronouncements on our injuries, but let random people on the internet and in "Healing Centers" tell us what drugs to take and how much.



I also read that many MM prescriptions is being written by a few doctors and that was one of the warning signs that the auditor general had when VAC scaled back the amount allowed.


----------



## BinRat55

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Interestingly enough, Marijuana for Trauma (2013) was formed just before the explosion of vets getting MM prescriptions. You cannot advertise prescription medication in Canada, yet these groups are allowed to flaunt that law and push meds directly to patients? Massive issues with doctors being paid to write scripts for certain meds in Canada to get kickbacks.



First, Marijuana For Trauma does not "flaunt" laws and "push" meds directly to people. I truly respect you and your posts Puck, however you are out of your lane here. Why don't you pop in to see me sometime? We'll go for a coffee and I would be more than happy to walk into MFT with you for a tour of what they ACTUALLY do...



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Why should such a large number of people immediately go right to the maximum covered dosage?



How on EARTH is this a known fact? Viagra is way more costly than a gram of weed - do you happen to know what dosage I started with THAT drug? My medical history is protected from others.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If MM is the perfect PTSD/Pain medication, why is there a negligible change in narcotic painkiller prescriptions once those individuals are prescribed MM?



There is no such thing as a "perfect" med. The "perfect" med would be a glass of water and a good night's sleep. THAT ain't happening any time soon. Maybe the "negligible change" can be attributed to the fact that many of us still have the scripts for narcotic painkillers on our files and it's assumed that we are still taking them.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> We deride VAC employees who are not doctors making medical pronouncements on our injuries, but let random people on the internet and in "Healing Centers" tell us what drugs to take and how much.



Puck - you are beyond cynicism... why practice it?


----------



## Stoker

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Sorry, but that's too broad a brush.   The MEDIA would only give airtime to those who complain.........just like any subject you can think of.
> 
> A thousand people protesting that I'm a stooge would make the front page but the 34 million who just plain adore me and stayed home don't exist. ;D



Point taken, I still think there will be a outcry though. I say this from what I saw over at Green Veterans Canada and the claims of "Big Pharma" and lots of other unfounded stuff. Its their right to complain though.


----------



## BinRat55

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> ... over at Green Veterans Canada ...



I don't know this term... is this a real thing or just more sarcastic undertone?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

In this post here.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/123208.0.html


----------



## mariomike

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Puck - you are beyond cynicism... why practice it?


----------



## Stoker

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> I don't know this term... is this a real thing or just more sarcastic undertone?




No, its a facebook page that a site member created. It was very educational on the MM veteran community. Sadly instead of rational arguments its filled lots of spam and "free living" but still educational all the same.


----------



## BinRat55

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> In this post here.
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/123208.0.html



Thanks... and thanks Tess - twice!


----------



## muskrat89

> If MM is the perfect PTSD/Pain medication, why is there a negligible change in narcotic painkiller prescriptions once those individuals are prescribed MM?



I can only comment with a single, statistically insignificant anecdote...  My wife is a MMJ User. Quadriplegic with Spinal Muscular Atrophy her whole life, uses a wheelchair - progressive disease with no cure. Several years ago she had a foot amputated below the knee. After almost a year on various opiates with very little effect (other than negative side effects, I suppose) - she tried MMJ. It was literally the first time in almost a year she had been pain free. It was an emotional event for her. She was done immediately with numerous other prescribed medications.


----------



## PuckChaser

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> How on EARTH is this a known fact? Viagra is way more costly than a gram of weed - do you happen to know what dosage I started with THAT drug? My medical history is protected from others.



Viagra has tons of scientific, peer-reviewed evidence to backup dosages. I'd rather we end up spending $50 a gram on MM if we had the kind of research and clinical trials/testing that actual prescription medications are subject to, so that we know exactly how it effects the body and is safe.



			
				BinRat55 said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as a "perfect" med. The "perfect" med would be a glass of water and a good night's sleep. THAT ain't happening any time soon. Maybe the "negligible change" can be attributed to the fact that many of us still have the scripts for narcotic painkillers on our files and it's assumed that we are still taking them.



I would hope that the VAC audit caught scripts that weren't being filled, and only cited the negligible change in that the scripts are still being written, filled and claimed. Then again, hope is not a valid COA and VAC has some people working for them who aren't much brighter than a glowstick an hour after its reached its max life...



> Puck - you are beyond cynicism... why practice it?



I'm not deliberately trying to be cynical, but everything I've seen from MM, especially with veterans, is being hijacked by the "natural" medicine and free living folks (that Chief alluded to). Those same people refuse to allow "Big Pharma" access to properly apply a scientific testing protocol to get the most out of CBD (probably the best component that could have medical use) because they're "evil" and trying to take away their medication. That screams to me as self-medication no different than someone downing a bottle of rum after a hard day at work. Its a recipe for disaster mixing veterans with mental illnesses and free/easy access to a drug that they can basically self-prescribe and self-dose.

If I walked into a doctor and asked for Percocet because my knee hurts and insisted it was the only thing that could help but only at this high dosage, I'd immediately be flagged as an addict. There's not much difference here, other than there's real science behind Percocet being highly addictive and dangerous in high doses. We don't have that info on MM because people don't want it to happen for whatever reason.


----------



## BinRat55

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Viagra has tons of scientific, peer-reviewed evidence to backup dosages. I'd rather we end up spending $50 a gram on MM if we had the kind of research and clinical trials/testing that actual prescription medications are subject to, so that we know exactly how it effects the body and is safe.



Cannabis used in treatment of a psychosis IS relatively new. Prior to this, marijuana made Pink Floyd way cooler and pizza taste divine. No real studies, so we have to begin somewhere right? Marie Curie discovered radiation (which was here centuries before she was) and then died from it. Trial and error.  



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If I walked into a doctor and asked for Percocet because my knee hurts and insisted it was the only thing that could help but only at this high dosage, I'd immediately be flagged as an addict. There's not much difference here, other than there's real science behind Percocet being highly addictive and dangerous in high doses. We don't have that info on MM because people don't want it to happen for whatever reason.



The biggest difference I can think of is this - Percocet has one use and one use only - turn off pain receptors. Medicinal cannabis is a multi-faceted treatment regime tailored for and by the individual. Much different than taking a pill. Also, run enough percs through that liver of yours and then compare it to mine. Would I be considered an "addict" if I ran out of the 300mg a day Sertraline and begged the pharmacist to "front" me more till my appointment? It's not a narcotic, but man I knew when I was not taking them...


----------



## Jarnhamar

It's great to see you posting  muskrat89.  That's a really sad situation but a great example of how MM can and should be used.  *IF* MM can get someone off a cocktail of pills then it's an awesome alternative.


Something I heard a few years ago from a private fresh from battle school has stuck with me.  "When I go to Afghanistan and get PTSD....". The context was about being able to tell boss's to fuck off and use PTSD as an excuse but he legitimately sounded like he was going to (somehow) get PTSD. He wasn't the only one either. Getting PTSD almost seemed expected.

Our medical system is already jam packed and struggling. A concern I'd have is that people leaving the CF and trying to get MMJ for bullshit reasons jamming the medical system even worse.  Young guys and girls doing a couple years then abusing and trying to get MMJ. 

We say "how much is a life worth" when arguing about the dangers of dropping the limit from 10g to 3g and I understand that. It works both ways. Money spend on false claims is likewise putting soldiers in danger by taking money away from where it's needed.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The context was about being able to tell boss's to fuck off and use PTSD as an excuse but he legitimately sounded like he was going to (somehow) get PTSD.



Why disrespect your employer? You won't get a good reference when they fire you.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Young guys and girls doing a couple years then abusing and trying to get MMJ.


----------



## PuckChaser

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Cannabis used in treatment of a psychosis IS relatively new. Prior to this, marijuana made Pink Floyd way cooler and pizza taste divine. No real studies, so we have to begin somewhere right? Marie Curie discovered radiation (which was here centuries before she was) and then died from it. Trial and error.



Right, but Marie Curie put those risks on herself. This day and age we don't experiment on humans without trials done on animals first. Any cannabis treatment thus far is anecdotal, with sparse scientific trials mostly due to the fact it remains a Schedule II drug. If we can get it moved to Schedule IV (http://www.wrps.on.ca/community-connections/drug-education/drug-law) and allow that testing to commence, we'll be far better off in knowing the long term effects of heavy (10g a day is heavy by any standard) use. Look at Mefloquine. In Somalia those guys were given double the dose we get now. I can't imagine the side effects I would have gotten with a double dose. That was a clinical trial with massive dosages and 20 years later we're just finding out how dangerous it was to them.

You'll also find most "legalize marijauna" sites profess that Cannabis doesn't cause "ODs" or psychosis, unless you have a pre-existing mental health condition. We're slamming vets with huge mental health conditions full of high concentrations of a drug (50% more powerful than pizza and Pink Floyd era) with limited science.



			
				BinRat55 said:
			
		

> The biggest difference I can think of is this - Percocet has one use and one use only - turn off pain receptors. Medicinal cannabis is a multi-faceted treatment regime tailored for and by the individual. Much different than taking a pill. Also, run enough percs through that liver of yours and then compare it to mine. Would I be considered an "addict" if I ran out of the 300mg a day Sertraline and begged the pharmacist to "front" me more till my appointment? It's not a narcotic, but man I knew when I was not taking them...



With any drug you can develop a dependence, including MMJ. If you need the SSRI to function, you're addicted to the effects, albeit through no fault of your own. It modifies behaviour significantly enough create that physical withdrawal symptom set. MMJ can do the same thing. You also didn't initially walk up to your physician and ask for a script for Sertraline. It was recommended based on a body of solid scientific evidence with known side effects and long term effects. You wouldn't shop around to find a physician to prescribe you that Sertraline, so why should groups work to help people doctor-shop so they can get the drug they want?

Although not from Percs, my liver is likely sufficiently smashed up from a misspent youth in a university town.  ;D


----------



## BinRat55

There is a great opportunity here to do actually that - run your tests, do your research. There is a viable base of thousands (read hundreds of willing participants) with bona-fide measures of broken... ask me all the questions you want. Extrapolate all the data you need. It will surprise you I'm sure.

As for mefloquine - I'm living THAT nightmare too... but that's another thread. 10 gr a day is not a heavy dose when put into the correct contex as I and a few others have attempted to explain. 

Most of us don't "shop" doctors... I heard of this treatment while I was still  serving. Using my limited judgement, really wanting to find an answer decided  to try something new. 

It worked. More than likely same or similar story for most vets.

Sure I'll stipulate to being addicted... to feeling right for a change.


----------



## PuckChaser

I've seen the post, the dose is heavy if you're smoking it, fairly light if you're making edibles and oil. This is where proper medications can be made with the oil, at a pharmaceutical company with Health Canada and Industry Canada inspectors making sure every dose is the same and every dose is not tampered with.

It absolutely is a great opportunity to run tests and research, but in the proper way. Giving everyone who asks for it MMJ at whatever dose they want is not scientifically accurate. There's no control group, no placebo group. Everyone is going to say it works because they will get some form of relief. Whether it works safely, or for everyone, we have no idea. They're just starting slow and careful research into high-CBD, low-THC MMJ for severe childhood epilepsy. Great promise there, but no one has opened the floodgates yet because there are some severe side effects with brain development in minors smoking pot recreationally.

Let me be clear, I would like to see this work out well as a treatment. The problem is, we've put the cart before the horse and MMJ is being treated as a homeopathic remedy instead of an actual medication which it has great potential to be. A bunch of backyard botanists and chemists can make all the claims they want about this strain or that strain, but with no science behind it I could go smoke pine needles and make the same claims.


----------



## Stoker

We letting people grow it and buy it from operators who have questionable quality control including the many unlicensed dispensaries. Lately we have been seeing the results of this lack of quality from anything from mold on the product and trace amounts of fertilizer in the finished product.  Unless health Canada is willing to enforce standards then it may be better to turn it over a drug companies where they have the quality control and experience to provide a safe product to the end user.


----------



## BinRat55

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> We letting people grow it and buy it from operators who have questionable quality control including the many unlicensed dispensaries. Lately we have been seeing the results of this lack of quality from anything from mold on the product and trace amounts of fertilizer in the finished product.  Unless health Canada is willing to enforce standards then it may be better to turn it over a drug companies where they have the quality control and experience to provide a safe product to the end user.



Holy.... mold? Fertilizer? Are we really THAT far into the "weeds" on this? Lol!!


----------



## Stoker

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Holy.... mold? Fertilizer? Are we really THAT far into the "weeds" on this? Lol!!



You have to admit that quality control is very important to the end user, after all if the government is providing this as a treatment you want to have the best product imaginable.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/globe-investigation-whats-in-your-weed-we-tested-dispensary-marijuana-to-findout/article31144496/


----------



## the 48th regulator

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> No, its a facebook page that a site member created. It was very educational on the MM veteran community. Sadly instead of rational arguments its filled lots of spam and "free living" but still educational all the same.



Please do not give a false description of the site.  Remember, you were removed and blocked/banned from there for being a prohibitionist, harming the membership.

Stay in your lane, and please do not discuss my site on these means as if you are in the know, of what it is.

Green veterans Canada is a Peer support group for Canadian Veterans and Medical Cannabis.  We are the largest on Facebook, and have the support of many organizations within the community, and industry.

How many groups do you manage that help veterans?


----------



## Flavus101

Zeb, that is ridiculous.

He is stating his interpretation of what his time in the group consisted of.

I really do not have a dog in this fight, I do however like reading the articles that are posted and the discourse that comes from them.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> Zeb, that is ridiculous.
> 
> He is stating his interpretation of what his time in the group consisted of.
> 
> I really do not have a dog in this fight, I do however like reading the articles that are posted and the discourse that comes from them.



Fair enough,

There is more to this than his post and my retort.  I don't mean to sound crass, but please do not interfere as you said, you have no dog in this fight.

Thank you, sorry for being ubrupt with you, just want to let you know there is more to this than what you have read.


----------



## Flavus101

That's fair.

Is it possible for that to be kept out of what really is an informative thread?

As I said, I really do like learning about this subject and it does affect me in my role in the CAF.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> That's fair.
> 
> Is it possible for that to be kept out of what really is an informative thread?
> 
> As I said, I really do like learning about this subject and it does affect me in my role in the CAF.



I think you are addressing your needs to the wrong person.  I am just defending my Group, which offers Peer Support from someone that is passing themself off as a SME, and thinks they can judge the group, based on what he experienced.  He was tossed for a reason.  You want the real deal, talk to a Cannabis Patient, Wounded Veteran, and Advocate.  Trust me I can put you in touch with a few.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> You have to admit that quality control is very important to the end user, after all if the government is providing this as a treatment you want to have the best product imaginable.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/globe-investigation-whats-in-your-weed-we-tested-dispensary-marijuana-to-findout/article31144496/



Right.  What happens when a former service member gets infected with something or even dies because of a hypothetical QC issue in MMJ that VAC paid for.   Multiple million dollar lawsuit would be my guess.


----------



## Stoker

Zebedy Colt said:
			
		

> Please do not give a false description of the site.  Remember, you were removed and blocked/banned from there for being a prohibitionist, harming the membership.
> 
> Stay in your lane, and please do not discuss my site on these means as if you are in the know, of what it is.
> 
> Green veterans Canada is a Peer support group for Canadian Veterans and Medical Cannabis.  We are the largest on Facebook, and have the support of many organizations within the community, and industry.
> 
> How many groups do you manage that help veterans?



So you are trying to say I am against MM, and a prohibitionist. No I am not, not once did I post anything over there.  The spam as I said was all the crap that had nothing to do with Therapeutic Cannabis use. Please refrain from attacking me as I was commenting on all the posts that had nothing to do with the subject of your site.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Right.  What happens when a former service member gets infected with something or even dies because of a hypothetical QC issue in MMJ that VAC paid for.   Multiple million dollar lawsuit would be my guess.



 :rofl:

What's your next crusade?   Coconuts??


----------



## the 48th regulator

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> So you are trying to say I am against MM, and a prohibitionist. No I am not, not once did I post anything over there.  The spam as I said was all the crap that had nothing to do with Therapeutic Cannabis use. Please refrain from attacking me as I was commenting on all the posts that had nothing to do with the subject of your site.



Please refrain to posting anything to do with our site, you have no clue, and the fact you have been turfed proves that.  Look at your posts on these means.  Opinion does not make you a Pundit.  Please


----------



## Halifax Tar

Zebedy Colt said:
			
		

>



Agreed MJ defiantly is not as harmful as cigarettes or alcohol or apparently coconuts.  

But:

http://www.today.com/health/driving-while-high-marijuana-causing-spike-fatal-accidents-t91746
http://www.ibtimes.com/driving-while-high-dangerous-fatal-car-accidents-involving-marijuana-triple-over-10-years-1553319
http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/cully-stimson/stoned-drivers-are-killing-more-and-more-innocent-victims
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/us-states-with-legal-pot-sales-see-rise-in-fatal-accidents-by-high-drivers/article26947558/
http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article52135295.html

So while not nearly as bad; still its not 0.  

Outside medical prescriptions, IMHO, we should treat it like booze.  Put a legal age of usage on it, stock in the NSLC, LCBO ect and tax the crap out of it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

:goodpost:

However, you can really attribute all your links to anything that distracts drivers.

Or I can truck out links to News that counter those claims....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/08/05/since-marijuana-legalization-highway-fatalities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/?utm_term=.ce80760f5dd1

So what do we do.  Ban radios, airconditioners, Lipstick, Sandwhiches, and the mirros with the light in Cars?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Zebedy Colt said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> However, you can really attribute all your links to anything that distracts drivers.
> 
> Or I can truck out links to News that counter those claims....
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/08/05/since-marijuana-legalization-highway-fatalities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/?utm_term=.ce80760f5dd1
> 
> So what do we do.  Ban radios, airconditioners, Lipstick, Sandwhiches, and the mirros witht he light in Cars?



No one said anything about banning.  I just want to tax the crap out of it so we can dump more money into vacations for the PM and other good spending measures. 

No one should be driving while high, drunk or stoned or what ever.  That should be a given.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> No one said anything about banning.  I just want to tax the crap out of it so we can dump more money into vacations for the PM and other good spending measures.
> 
> No one should be driving while high, drunk or stoned or what ever.  That should be a given.



Very well said mate, very well said agreed!

Anything that can mess with Judgment, the user must take Responsibility


----------



## Jarnhamar

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/4-rcmp-officers-killed-on-alberta-farm-1.521207


> A raid on a suspected marijuana grow operation in rural Alberta has left five people dead â four of them RCMP officers.



It's a lucrative business people are willing  to kill for. 
It's a catch 22 as well.  The more quality control vac places on the product the higher price vetted growers can charge.   Maybe the price per gram will triple.  If the price becomes too exhorbant then maybe vac will cut back the dose they pay for again.


----------



## Stoker

Zebedy Colt said:
			
		

> Please refrain to posting anything to do with our site, you have no clue, and the fact you have been turfed proves that.  Look at your posts on these means.  Opinion does not make you a Pundit.  Please



Yes you turfed me and since I was added by one of your members some time ago without permission I am wondering how you knew who I was. I don't suppose you accessed my personal information on here as a moderator to find out who I am? Isn't that a site violation?


----------



## the 48th regulator

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/4-rcmp-officers-killed-on-alberta-farm-1.521207
> 
> It's a lucrative business people are willing  to kill for.
> It's a catch 22 as well.  The more quality control vac places on the product the higher price vetted growers can charge.   Maybe the price per gram will triple.  If the price becomes too exhorbant then maybe vac will cut back the dose they pay for again.



Uhm,

That is an "Illegal" grow op, so to compare it with Medicinal Cannabis, or even "Legal" Cannabis which will happen in our future, you are just fear mongering.

People steal cars, should people stop buying them?

People modify Guns illegally, should we ban all of them outright?

If you are going to add to the conversation, please stop making it so dramatic, as to further stigmatize a medicine.  Didn't millions of dollars of Maple Syrup in Quebec get stolen by Organized crime???  Don't see you jumping on that.

Jeez, for real.


----------



## BinRat55

I am pretty sure (not 100% so don't no one jump all over me here...) that VAC has nothing to do with quality control. If that were the case, they would up all the pill-makers asses as well, would they not? Marijuana grown for medicinal purposes are grown by fully licenced and accredited, government inspected facilities and are subjected to more than the normal "controls". There are only 3 dozen or so legal providers in Canada, all of which VAC will approve. Only. If I went to a "guy" or a "store" and tried to claim a purchase through VAC, I would get told to pound salt.

QC? I feel that the quality of medicinal marijuana I get is top-notch. 

Screw coconuts!


----------



## Jarnhamar

https://www.google.ca/amp/ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/home-grown-medical-marijuana-the-new-rules/amp?client=ms-android-rogers-ca



> • The new rules set out a framework for commercial production by licensed producers, like the MMPR, but like the former MMAR, * allows patients to produce a “limited amount” for their own use or designate someone to grow it for them* .


----------



## Stoker

https://news.lift.co/health-canada-issues-type-ii-recall-organigram-products/

[size=12pt]Health Canada issues Type II recall for OrganiGram products [/size]


Health Canada released their first public recall of a cannabis product since March 2015 today, with the announcement of a Type II recall of 69 lots of product. This is in addition to five lots recalled under a Type III recall in late December of last year.

The recalled products include both dried marijuana and cannabis oil produced between February 1, 2016 and December 16, 2016. The affected lot numbers are listed here.

The public recall notice explains that five product lots in December had tested positive for myclobutanil “and/or” bifenazate. Both of these are unapproved pesticides under Health Canada’s ACMPR. Then, On Jan 9 of this year, OrganiGram initiated a second voluntary recall, this time a Type II recall based on trace amounts of the same pesticide(s) found.

Health Canada lists their three recall types as such

    Type I: a situation in which there is a reasonable probability that the use of, or exposure to, a product will cause serious adverse health consequences or death,
    Type II: a situation in which the use of, or exposure to, a product may cause temporary adverse health consequences or where the probability of serious adverse health consequences is remote, or
    Type III: a situation in which the use of, or exposure to, a product is not likely to cause any adverse health consequences.

Type III recalls do not generally warrant a public recall, but a Type I or II recall does. In the past, Health Canada has issued public recalls for other medical cannabis, but has not detailed if it was a Type I, II or III.

Past medical cannabis recalls have been for issues like improper paperwork, inaccurate THC labeling, positive bacterial testing, and mould.

Health Canada recommends that any individual affected by the recall immediately stop using the recalled product and to contact Organigram Inc. at the following number: 1-855-961-9420.


----------



## Stoker

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/12/marijuana-study-benefits-chemotherapy-pain-multiple-sclerosis

[size=14pt]Most marijuana medicinal benefits are inconclusive, wide-ranging study finds [/size]



There is not enough research to reach conclusive judgments on whether marijuana can effectively treat most of the symptoms and diseases it is advertised as helping, according to a wide-ranging US government study.

The same is also true of many of the risks said to be associated with using cannabis, the study finds.

More than 100 conclusions about the health effects of marijuana, including claims of both helpful and harmful effects, were evaluated by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine in a study released on Thursday.

There was only enough evidence to support treatment for three therapeutic uses, the study found: to reduce nausea and vomiting from chemotherapy, to treat chronic pain and to reduce spasms from multiple sclerosis.

“Really, most of the therapeutic reasons people use medical marijuana aren’t substantiated beneficial effects of the plant,” said Sean Hennessy, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Pennsylvania, and a member of the 16-scientist committee that carried out the review.

Uses for which there was either “limited evidence or insufficient evidence”, according to Hennessy, included increasing appetite and weight gain for patients with HIV/Aids, calming attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children, and treating epilepsy.

“There’s been an explosion of literature since 1999 … We reviewed thousands of abstracts,” said Robert Wallace, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Iowa College of Public Health, and another member of the committee tasked with reviewing more than 10,000 studies to reach conclusions about the current state of research on marijuana. “A lot of the report is really where the state of the evidence is.”

For example, the report found “conclusive” evidence that cannabis can alleviate some nausea and vomiting associated with cancer treatment, but that case was long ago considered settled. For many indications in the report, science has not reached a definitive answer.

The report’s key findings fell into a few broad categories:

    Injury and death: evidence suggests that driving while high increases the risk of a car accident. In states where marijuana has been legalized, evidence suggests that children are at more risk of ingesting marijuana. Cannabis use could also harm adolescents’ educational and social development.

    Mental health: cannabis use is likely to increase the risk of developing schizophrenia, social anxiety disorders and, to a lesser extent, depression. Heavy marijuana users are more likely to report suicidal thoughts that non-users, and people with bipolar disorder who use marijuana almost daily show more symptoms than non-users.

    Cancer: evidence does not support a link between smoking marijuana and cancers typically associated with tobacco, such as head, neck and lung cancer. Evidence suggests that smoking marijuana on a regular basis is associated with chronic bronchitis and phlegm production.

    Addiction: evidence suggests that people who use more cannabis are more likely to be addicted, and that the younger people start, the more likely they are to develop problematic use.

    Nausea: there is conclusive evidence that cannabinoids, compounds derived from marijuana, are useful to treat nausea and vomiting associated with chemotherapy.

    Chronic pain: there is evidence to support use of cannabis in treatment of chronic pain, in particular in spasms associated with multiple sclerosis, the disabling central nervous system disease.

The report comes as the pace of marijuana reforms has quickened across the US. Medicinal marijuana is now legal in 29 states, and recreational marijuana is legal in eight states and in Washington DC. Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in the US, with an estimated 22.2 million people using the drug in the past month, according to a 2014 government survey.
Advertisement

Drug policy reform has also became a topic of international debate, as high-profile medical organizations and some countries call for decriminalization of illicit drugs. The academies’ report is the first in 18 years to address such a breadth of physical effects from marijuana, and is likely to fuel arguments on both sides of the marijuana debate.

While the paper is broad and wide-ranging, it is unlikely to end debate on any number of treatments. One researcher studying the therapeutic impacts of the cannabis compound cannabidiol on children with epilepsy said researchers’ conclusions were broadly “conservative”, and on epilepsy “wrong”.

“For science to do what it does, I think when they do a scientific review they should incorporate all the evidence that is out there for that disorder, and I don’t think they did that for epilepsy,” said Orrin Devinsky, director of New York University Langone Medical Center’s comprehensive epilepsy center. Still, he called the report “very valuable”.

The report comes at a significant time for marijuana policy worldwide, as drug policy reform has picked up both in the US and internationally. Less than one year ago, an international commission published a report in The Lancet calling for decriminalization of all drugs, finding that prohibition did not effectively combat drug use, addiction or organized crime. At the same time, the United Nations held a special session to discuss global drug policy, the first in almost 20 years. Additionally, mental health concerns about “skunk” marijuana have also increased.

The study represents the broadest review by the National Academies of Sciences since 1999, after California and Arizona passed the first medical marijuana laws, and the public debated whether physicians should prescribe marijuana.

Controversially, the 1999 report found that marijuana could indeed reduce nausea, but that it could also help treat pain. While the report found some negative effects from smoking marijuana, it also contradicted the then US “drug czar” Barry R McCaffrey’s position that “not a shred of scientific evidence” existed for the medicinal use of marijuana.
Advertisement

Almost two decades later, legal marijuana has spawned an untold number of shops hawking marijuana for people to enjoy like beer or wine, but also products that more closely resemble cure-alls on the untested supplement market.

“There is a great fear that I continue to have, that the cannabis industry medically will be like the vitamin and nutritional supplement market,” Devinsky said. “People advertise on TV that we isolated a compound from jellyfish and it improves memory.”

He added: “It’s become a religion for people, and my personal view is if you want to pray to whatever gods you pray to, and you want to advocate for whatever political candidate, it’s a free country. But when it comes to medical therapy, we have a higher standard.”

In the US, the push for marijuana legalization comes at a time of increasing dismay over the state of the criminal justice system, as sentencing laws passed during the “war on drugs” are being reexamined in light of their disproportionate impact on people of color.

“This growing acceptance, accessibility and use of cannabis and its derivatives has raised important public health concerns,” said Marie McCormick, a pediatrician at Harvard University’s TH Chan School of Public Health, who chaired the committee. “Moreover, the lack of any aggregated knowledge of cannabis-related health effects has led to uncertainty about what, if any, are the harms or benefits from its use.

“We conducted an in-depth and broad review of the most recent research to establish firmly what the science says, and to highlight areas that still need further examination. As laws and policies continue to change, research must also.”

The report also took the unusual step of calling for private funding sources to advance marijuana research. Researchers found it “difficult to gain access to the quantity, quality, and type of cannabis product necessary”, the report said. “A diverse network of funders is needed to support cannabis and cannabinoid research.”

One of those hurdles is the limited supply of research-grade marijuana, which is grown only at the University of Mississippi.

“Any federal study has challenges,” said Nolan Kane, a geneticist at the University of Colorado at Boulder studying the evolution of plants such as sunflowers and hemp. He described government-approved marijuana as having “a fraction” of the psychoactive ingredients of privately grown marijuana, and said research subjects described the marijuana as “old” and “low quality”.

“Getting people to even accept money to smoke their marijuana – you’d think college campuses, it would be easy to get people to smoke marijuana,” Kane said. “It doesn’t at all reflect the marketplace ... It’s always going to be comparing apples and oranges until they’re able to make the products more similar.”

The report is the product of 16 experts in their fields, including neurologists, oncologists, epidemiologists and child psychiatrists. Among the review’s most fervent calls were for more investigation.

The study was sponsored by a group of state health departments, federal agencies and nonprofits, such as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the Robert W Woodruff Foundation and the Arizona department of health services.


----------



## Stoker

So I think based on the limited data out there that the government should spend the money to conduct a long term study on the Therapeutic benefits of Cannabis and put to rest any arguments on the benefits or harm Cannabis does. It obviously benefits people but testimonials and data is unreliable. Given the fact that Cannabis is set to explode on the scene with its legalization as a recreational drug, I think the government owes the people to make sure it grown properly and any benefits or more importantly adverse health affects are investigated and the appropriate warnings issued if required.


----------



## brihard

I think part of the problem is that a lot of the research is on 'cannabis', whereas most pharmaceutical research is on individual pharmaceutical compounds. 'Cannabis' as both a genus and as a commercial product (licit or illicit) contains varying proportions of several active chemical compounds. That will necessarily introduce many confounding variables to any study that will limit its usefulness.


----------



## Stoker

Brihard said:
			
		

> I think part of the problem is that a lot of the research is on 'cannabis', whereas most pharmaceutical research is on individual pharmaceutical compounds. 'Cannabis' as both a genus and as a commercial product (licit or illicit) contains varying proportions of several active chemical compounds. That will necessarily introduce many confounding variables to any study that will limit its usefulness.



So I guess it may be hard given the various strains to quantify its usefulness or harm it may be causing. Perhaps individual chemicals such as THC should be looked at more closely or possibly synthesized or genetically modified with the health benefits and without the high for some people.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Our medical system is swamped and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen members fall through the medical cracks. 

A major concern of mine is still the allure of members faking a PTSD (or whatever) ailment in order to essentially get pot for life. 

If members are out of province doctor shopping and 4 doctors are responsible for a 53% increase in prescriptions (or whatever it was) then that needs to be addressed.


----------



## Stoker

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Our medical system is swamped and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen members fall through the medical cracks.
> 
> A major concern of mine is still the allure of members faking a PTSD (or whatever) ailment in order to essentially get pot for life.
> 
> If members are out of province doctor shopping and 4 doctors are responsible for a 53% increase in prescriptions (or whatever it was) then that needs to be addressed.



Some provinces and many doctors do not give prescriptions for MM and some who do only a small supply at a time. This is a big complaint from the MM community.  I have read on other online forums what doctors are more sympathetic to get a prescription, if fact some doctors give phone or Skype interviews and issue prescriptions. I believe  VA has tightened up and make vets go to a pain specialist first in order to better access a client for their needs.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Some provinces and many doctors do not give prescriptions for MM and some who do only a small supply at a time. This is a big complaint from the MM community.  I have read on other online forums what doctors are more sympathetic to get a prescription, if fact some doctors give phone or Skype interviews and issue prescriptions. I believe  VA has tightened up and make vets go to a pain specialist first in order to better access a client for their needs.




Some Doctors specialize in different disciplines. Personally, I'd rather go to a Dr that's more attuned to my problems and is not afraid to try alternative methods than one who has never dealt with it at all. So people go to the specialist. If they are breaking no laws, they are entitled to all the business they can get. I don't see a problem and I'm not going to impinge on someone's professional credentials by implying that they are doing something untoward or illegal. However, if you have proof this is illegal, or you have credible information that these Doctors aren't qualified, I'm all ears. Please bring me up to speed.

Of course people are going to go to doctors more knowledge of their condition, why not? I would always prefer to go to a doctor that is knowledgeable about the conditions, what the effects of prophylactic cannabis use on the conditions is, what the dangers are and what specific conditions warrant certain prescriptions. Doctors that have researched and specialized are always more preferable to a general practice MD. Patients want treatment, not days or weeks of shopping around trying to find someone with the qualifications. Patients that are happy are bound to let their friends know why and how. I'm sure you'll see more doctors in the future once it becomes more widespread.

Phone and Skype doctor visits have been in place for years, not just for medical cannabis. Doctors have been using these approved methods of contacting patients well before medical cannabis came on the scene. Why do you think the practice should be stopped? What about Skype and phone to consult on cancer? Do we get rid of those also?

Nothing has changed at VAC, the system remains as it was for current users. The specifics of who can prescribe, for what, will be out for the transition. Right now, your MD can prescribe. There is also a number of other conditions, besides pain, that MC can work for. So there will be a number of different medical disciplines involved, not just pain specialists. This comes into effect on May 22/17. You only need a specialist letter if you are going to need >3 grams/ day.




			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Our medical system is swamped and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has seen members fall through the medical cracks.
> 
> A major concern of mine is still the allure of members faking a PTSD (or whatever) ailment in order to essentially get pot for life.
> 
> If members are out of province doctor shopping and 4 doctors are responsible for a 53% increase in prescriptions (or whatever it was) then that needs to be addressed.



 This bit in yellow. We know it's a concern, for you, because you never fail to bring it up, constantly. I won't deny there are probably people out there cheating the system, but it's nowhere near the epidemic proportions that you always imply. And you keep saying members. That implies members of the CAF, who have, IIRC, no access to MC unless transitioning.

Why does someone shopping for a Doctor, that specializes in a particular discipline, create a problem so alarming that it needs to be addressed? I recall long ago, when Windsor/ Detroit only had one neurosurgeon. Perhaps he should have been investigated because he got 90% of the brain and back problems?

I'd like to address one more thing while I'm here. There seems to be a growing number of people accusing Vets and Serving members of faking their PTSI. The process for diagnoses doesn't end with the patient sitting in a Dr office rhyming off symptoms from a book. "Yep, you've got PTSI, because you named all the symptoms". There are a number of written tests, interviews with psychiatrists, psychologists and VAC. Boards are held, that include doctors, social workers and peer support organisations to discuss your case. While I have no doubt there are offenders out there, I don't think they are of sufficient numbers that you have to try keep hammering away with the accusation in your posts. If you have some other proof, specifically geared to the CAF, to improve your position, I'll listen. If not, please stop inundating us with your, worn out, unsubstantiated statements.


----------



## PuckChaser

Huge difference in shopping for a doctor who specializes in a condition, and shopping for a doctor who you know will treat your condition the way you want it to be treated.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Huge difference in shopping for a doctor who specializes in a condition, and shopping for a doctor who you know will treat your condition the way you want it to be treated.



 I'll need to see proof this is happening. If you have it, let's discuss. However, if it's speculation, I have no interest. I won't agree to speculate on someone's professional or ethical qualifications, nor how they legally run their business. Until proven otherwise, I'll have to assume that these doctors are following their oath to do no harm and doing it legally. Do you agree?


----------



## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> Some Doctors specialize in different disciplines. Personally, I'd rather go to a Dr that's more attuned to my problems and is not afraid to try alternative methods than one who has never dealt with it at all. So people go to the specialist. If they are breaking no laws, they are entitled to all the business they can get. I don't see a problem and I'm not going to impinge on someone's professional credentials by implying that they are doing something untoward or illegal. However, if you have proof this is illegal, or you have credible information that these Doctors aren't qualified, I'm all ears. Please bring me up to speed.
> 
> Of course people are going to go to doctors more knowledge of their condition, why not? I would always prefer to go to a doctor that is knowledgeable about the conditions, what the effects of prophylactic cannabis use on the conditions is, what the dangers are and what specific conditions warrant certain prescriptions. Doctors that have researched and specialized are always more preferable to a general practice MD. Patients want treatment, not days or weeks of shopping around trying to find someone with the qualifications. Patients that are happy are bound to let their friends know why and how. I'm sure you'll see more doctors in the future once it becomes more widespread.
> 
> Phone and Skype doctor visits have been in place for years, not just for medical cannabis. Doctors have been using these approved methods of contacting patients well before medical cannabis came on the scene. Why do you think the practice should be stopped? What about Skype and phone to consult on cancer? Do we get rid of those also?
> 
> Nothing has changed at VAC, the system remains as it was for current users. The specifics of who can prescribe, for what, will be out for the transition. Right now, your MD can prescribe. There is also a number of other conditions, besides pain, that MC can work for. So there will be a number of different medical disciplines involved, not just pain specialists. This comes into effect on May 22/17. You only need a specialist letter if you are going to need >3 grams/ day.
> 
> 
> This bit in yellow. We know it's a concern, for you, because you never fail to bring it up, constantly. I won't deny there are probably people out there cheating the system, but it's nowhere near the epidemic proportions that you always imply. And you keep saying members. That implies members of the CAF, who have, IIRC, no access to MC unless transitioning.
> 
> Why does someone shopping for a Doctor, that specializes in a particular discipline, create a problem so alarming that it needs to be addressed? I recall long ago, when Windsor/ Detroit only had one neurosurgeon. Perhaps he should have been investigated because he got 90% of the brain and back problems?
> 
> I'd like to address one more thing while I'm here. There seems to be a growing number of people accusing Vets and Serving members of faking their PTSI. The process for diagnoses doesn't end with the patient sitting in a Dr office rhyming off symptoms from a book. "Yep, you've got PTSI, because you named all the symptoms". There are a number of written tests, interviews with psychiatrists, psychologists and VAC. Boards are held, that include doctors, social workers and peer support organisations to discuss your case. While I have no doubt there are offenders out there, I don't think they are of sufficient numbers that you have to try keep hammering away with the accusation in your posts. If you have some other proof, specifically geared to the CAF, to improve your position, I'll listen. If not, please stop inundating us with your, worn out, unsubstantiated statements.



I think the reason why some provinces and some doctors won't deal with MM is that simply they don't believe in it which is their choice as you might agree. Its a known fact that some doctors give out MM prescriptions to people who abuse the system. If I wanted a prescription for MM, i'm sure I could find a skype doctor to give me one for $500. I'm not saying everyone is doing that but some of the talk I hear on social media MM pages leads to me believe there's abuse.

Consulting over the phone or Skype between doctors is normal. Seeing a MM friendly doctor recommended by a dispensary for a 3 min chat is suspect.

Lots of talk about it here

https://www.420magazine.com/forums/medical-marijuana-doctors/220924-medical-marijuana-services-looking-prescription-canada-under-new-laws-2.html?s=d1520d0796d95d3e340017b8596ac615


----------



## Jarnhamar

If anyone feels like I'm inundating them with worn out statements they're more than capable of throwing me on ignore. 

As for phone and Skype calls to get prescriptions, what? That's news to me. I can't get medical staff to tell me shit over the phone. I'm blown away someone can get a MMJ prescription over the phone? I agree with Chief Stoker that's pretty suspect.

Doctors are hardly infallible. Operating on the wrong limb, leaving instruments inside peoples bodies. It's hardly heresy to question doctors in light of some of the shady stuff we read about. Like $50-$250 will get you a meeting with a doctor to write you a script.  

I'm not sure about epidemic proportions but didn't VAC just talk about a huge increase in MMJ prescriptions? Costing VAC so much that they initiated the whole 3 gram a day rule?



> one neurosurgeon. Perhaps he should have been investigated because he got 90% of the brain and back problems?



I don't know. If there was 100 neurosurgeons and 2 of them were responsible for prescribing 90% of Oxycontin prescriptions should they be investigated then? I'd say yes.  

As for the doctor shopping question I think you know very well the circumstances of why someone might doctor shop to prescribe them exactly what they want. It's not something that's limited to MMJ, people doctor shop for narcotics too.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I read a few of the pages, there is some of it going on, no doubt. I only saw one 3 minute reference. That, I believe, was somebody talking to someone else about a 3 minute conversation. Could be wrong though. I know lots of doctors that see patients for no more than ten minutes, including prescriptions for lots of things so it probably isn't unusual for doctor to spend around the same with a cannabis patient. I'm not a doctor so I won't guess.

Doctors have been Skyping or videoconferencing with patients for a while now. This is neither suspect or unusual. And it's not just cannabis doctors. Like I said, I didn't see in the link where interviews were only 3 minutes long. Perhaps you could point it out?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If anyone feels like I'm inundating them with worn out statements they're more than capable of throwing me on ignore.
> 
> As for phone and Skype calls to get prescriptions, what? That's news to me. I can't get medical staff to tell me shit over the phone. I'm blown away someone can get a MMJ prescription over the phone? I agree with Chief Stoker that's pretty suspect.
> 
> Doctors are hardly infallible. Operating on the wrong limb, leaving instruments inside peoples bodies. It's hardly heresy to question doctors in light of some of the shady stuff we read about. Like $50-$250 will get you a meeting with a doctor to write you a script.
> 
> I'm not sure about epidemic proportions but didn't VAC just talk about a huge increase in MMJ prescriptions? Costing VAC so much that they initiated the whole 3 gram a day rule?
> 
> I don't know. If there was 100 neurosurgeons and 2 of them were responsible for prescribing 90% of Oxycontin prescriptions should they be investigated then? I'd say yes.
> 
> As for the doctor shopping question I think you know very well the circumstances of why someone might doctor shop to prescribe them exactly what they want. It's not something that's limited to MMJ, people doctor shop for narcotics too.


Everything in your post has already been addressed, by myself or others. During those discussions, links and posters with experience in the subject, gave you the answers to your questions. Your rumours, unnamed sources and innuendo were addressed. Why then do you persist in saying the same stuff over and over?
I see no links to articles or anything else that goes to research on the subject. I'm afraid I'm not repeating all the answers again, you'll need to go back and read for yourself.

You're right about the doctor shopping. It does happen. However, it's more widespread with narcotics, so why the concentration on cannabis patients?


----------



## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> I read a few of the pages, there is some of it going on, no doubt. I only saw one 3 minute reference. That, I believe, was somebody talking to someone else about a 3 minute conversation. Could be wrong though. I know lots of doctors that see patients for no more than ten minutes, including prescriptions for lots of things so it probably isn't unusual for doctor to spend around the same with a cannabis patient. I'm not a doctor so I won't guess.
> 
> Doctors have been Skyping or videoconferencing with patients for a while now. This is neither suspect or unusual. And it's not just cannabis doctors. Like I said, I didn't see in the link where interviews were only 3 minutes long. Perhaps you could point it out?




I guess I misread the "3 min" skype call 

Here's some more from the message board

"The doctor at XXXXXX was a pretty cool guy. He explained that everything is confidential. He asked me if I was already using because he likes to know how much, how often, and what I find works for me. He doesn't care either way, so its best to be honest. ""

"The Skype appt will be about 7 minutes. They will ask you about your cannabis use, how much u use, how u use it, how often etc. If you have a legit condition youll get it no problem."


I think the point is that there is plenty of news stories out there with people abusing the system. Apparently in BC you can walk in a store, declare you are self medicating and walk out with a gram after paying a $50 fee. Some are very honest with real problems, but to approve a drug with a short skype call I don't like it and it is open to abuse.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

That's fair. I'm sure there's abuse in this system as any other, but not as much. YMMV.

Once it's legal in the spring, I'm sure many of these concerns will go away.


----------



## Loachman

Caveat: I have no direct interest in medical marijuana. I tried a puff or two of the stuff at a party once, several decades ago. I don't know why, as I'd never been curious about it before, or since. I was too drunk at the time to know if it had any effect or if I inhaled.

I am far from an expert in either recreational or medical use of marijuana - but:



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> As for phone and Skype calls to get prescriptions, what? That's news to me. I can't get medical staff to tell me shit over the phone. I'm blown away someone can get a MMJ prescription over the phone?



It was news to me, too. Sometimes, progress is a good thing. One can order one's groceries, alcohol, and non-cannabis drugs online or by telephone, too, and have them delivered. For those that have difficulty leaving home, or lack of transport, or lack of time to drive long distances to the nearest doctor, this sounds ideal.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Doctors are hardly infallible. Operating on the wrong limb, leaving instruments inside peoples bodies. It's hardly heresy to question doctors in light of some of the shady stuff we read about.



Definitely. More people die from "medical misadventure" than from misuse of firearms. One should always question one's doctor when he or she says something or wants to do something that does not make sense. Semi-jokingly, I wrote "Do Not Amputate" on each arm and leg with a magic marker when I had my tonsils removed three decades ago, and asked and reminded the nice doctor what he was going to remove before I was anaesthetized. One should thoroughly research every drug and every procedure prescribed/suggested/pushed before accepting it.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about epidemic proportions but didn't VAC just talk about a huge increase in MMJ prescriptions? Costing VAC so much that they initiated the whole 3 gram a day rule?



I'd guess that the huge increase in prescriptions is because more people are finding that it helps them. I see nothing suspicious there.

I wonder how the costs of all of the "official" drugs, that seem to both be inadequate and have lengthy lists of side effects, compare.

I wonder how the costs of inability to work, or even function, compare.

I wonder how the costs of funerals and family devastation compare.

I won't even take Tylenol, Aspirin, or cough medicine, let alone anything more powerful (with two exceptions: the seventh and worst day following my tonsillectomy, and a weekend when an old root canal decided to almost explode about fifteen years ago) - they don't work for me anyway, and I do not like ingesting chemicals. I'd not get in the way of anybody who found relief from pain, physical or mental, in a natural remedy such as marijuana. I know people who suffer from depression and chronic pain. I cannot comprehend what either are like, but I accept that they are very real and can be disabling, and will support anything that gives them even the slightest relief. Their pain, their bodies, their choice, as adults, to make their own decisions and to use whatever works.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I don't know. If there was 100 neurosurgeons and 2 of them were responsible for prescribing 90% of Oxycontin prescriptions should they be investigated then? I'd say yes.



Has anybody tracked such a trend? As long as they are doing so legally and ethically, who should care?



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> As for the doctor shopping question I think you know very well the circumstances of why someone might doctor shop to prescribe them exactly what they want. It's not something that's limited to MMJ, people doctor shop for narcotics too.



Fifty percent of doctors are below average. People - intelligent people - shop for doctors with whom they feel comfortable, who they perceive to be competent, who listen with open minds, and who they perceive to be caring and genuinely interested in their well-being. If someone knows that something works, why would he/she not bypass a doctor who will not accept that, and find one who will?

Yes, there are, indubitably, people who will abuse any system. There are far more, however, whose needs are genuine and should not be automatically treated as if they are no-good scheming weasels.

Enough people report that marijuana helps them, and is the only thing that helps them. That is good enough for me.

I understand that this is controversial for some. Many things that we now accept as normal were controversial at one time - racial equality, gender equality, homosexuality, OSIs/PTSD etcetera.

I remember when "Sexual deviancy" was a military offence.

Medical use of marijuana, too, will be accepted as normal in a few more years.


----------



## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's fair. I'm sure there's abuse in this system as any other, but not as much. YMMV.
> 
> Once it's legal in the spring, I'm sure many of these concerns will go away.



I don't think it will go away at all when it becomes legalized and I think its legalization will become a train wreck for some people. I hope the number of restrictions are sufficient to keep it away the people who shouldn't have it. I don't see a change for veterans except that its price will probably increase and VA will probably cut back more or eliminate it was its now a recreational drug like alcohol.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Great posts Rg and Loachman.

Progress is a good thing I agree. I found it infuriating I couldn't get simple results released over the phone and had to piss around with making an appointment at a convenient time then go to a hospital and wait. With a lot of these issues it can be something positive but also abused.  Doctor shopping is a great example. Find a smart one who doesn't have a bad track record for sure. 

The conversation here turned me around from being against MMJ to generally supportive of it. 

Championing a devils advocate argument is still important I believe.  I'm sure we can all agree the CAF shits the bed on a lot of things. Sexual harassment and assault. Workplace harassment. Vehicle procurement. Recruiting. Boot fiasco. Professionally I don't want to see this turn into yet another running joke so I'm okay with being critical of it, yet still supporting members and ex-members effected by it.

I wouldn't deny it seems to help some people and especially provide a working alternative to some of the crazy drugs out there. It seems 100 times better then Oxycontin and all that(which you can doctor shop for too). 

It will be interesting to see how the CAF handles this going forward and if serving members in uniform will start getting prescriptions. Maybe I get social anxiety and need MMJ to attend all those stressful mandatory mess functions, or a new recruit needs a MMJ prescription to deal with the disabling stress of someone they don't like winning the next election.




			
				Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I don't think it will go away at all when it becomes legalized and I thunk its legalization will become a train wreck for some people. I hope the number of restrictions are sufficient to keep it away the people who shouldn't have it. I don't see a change for veterans except that its price will probably increase and VA will probably cut back more or eliminate it was its now a recreational drug like alcohol.



I think you're right.


----------



## Stoker

Loachman said:
			
		

> Caveat: I have no direct interest in medical marijuana. I tried a puff or two of the stuff at a party once, several decades ago. I don't know why, as I'd never been curious about it before, or since. I was too drunk at the time to know if it had any effect or if I inhaled.
> 
> I am far from an expert in either recreational or medical use of marijuana - but:
> 
> It was news to me, too. Sometimes, progress is a good thing. One can order one's groceries, alcohol, and non-cannabis drugs online or by telephone, too, and have them delivered. For those that have difficulty leaving home, or lack of transport, or lack of time to drive long distances to the nearest doctor, this sounds ideal.
> 
> Definitely. More people die from "medical misadventure" than from misuse of firearms. One should always question one's doctor when he or she says something or wants to do something that does not make sense. Semi-jokingly, I wrote "Do Not Amputate" on each arm and leg with a magic marker when I had my tonsils removed three decades ago, and asked and reminded the nice doctor what he was going to remove before I was anaesthetized. One should thoroughly research every drug and every procedure prescribed/suggested/pushed before accepting it.
> 
> I'd guess that the huge increase in prescriptions is because more people are finding that it helps them. I see nothing suspicious there.
> 
> I wonder how the costs of all of the "official" drugs, that seem to both be inadequate and have lengthy lists of side effects, compare.
> 
> I wonder how the costs of inability to work, or even function, compare.
> 
> I wonder how the costs of funerals and family devastation compare.
> 
> I won't even take Tylenol, Aspirin, or cough medicine, let alone anything more powerful (with two exceptions: the seventh and worst day following my tonsillectomy, and a weekend when an old root canal decided to almost explode about fifteen years ago) - they don't work for me anyway, and I do not like ingesting chemicals. I'd not get in the way of anybody who found relief from pain, physical or mental, in a natural remedy such as marijuana. I know people who suffer from depression and chronic pain. I cannot comprehend what either are like, but I accept that they are very real and can be disabling, and will support anything that gives them even the slightest relief. Their pain, their bodies, their choice, as adults, to make their own decisions and to use whatever works.
> 
> Has anybody tracked such a trend? As long as they are doing so legally and ethically, who should care?
> 
> Fifty percent of doctors are below average. People - intelligent people - shop for doctors with whom they feel comfortable, who they perceive to be competent, who listen with open minds, and who they perceive to be caring and genuinely interested in their well-being. If someone knows that something works, why would he/she not bypass a doctor who will not accept that, and find one who will?
> 
> Yes, there are, indubitably, people who will abuse any system. There are far more, however, whose needs are genuine and should not be automatically treated as if they are no-good scheming weasels.
> 
> Enough people report that marijuana helps them, and is the only thing that helps them. That is good enough for me.
> 
> I understand that this is controversial for some. Many things that we now accept as normal were controversial at one time - racial equality, gender equality, homosexuality, OSIs/PTSD etcetera.
> 
> I remember when "Sexual deviancy" was a military offence.
> 
> Medical use of marijuana, too, will be accepted as normal in a few more years.



I'm not an expert too, never tried the stuff or likely to. I just have no interest. I was added to "Green Veterans Canada" on facebook without permission, so when I seen this thread I went back there and read up on all the threads and became members on many other MM groups to educate myself on the issues. I can understand why some on this board defend their medical use of it so strongly however no one is saying to eliminate it, but to eliminate abuse and place reasonable limits on it. That unfortunately is not looked on very favorably by some. 

What I found in a lot of cases people are being helped by this drug either by legit means or by the placebo effect. Some veterans interestingly admitted use either during their careers or before they joined much like a lot of people. In fact some bragged about it. Like you I think pain relief is great but if we placed no limits people would medicate themselves out of existence so reasonable limits of how much MM is issued eg 3 grams is important and not by just me but the government.

Plenty of talk about their family doctors denying their prescription and having to do the skype interview to get one and how easy it is. Many of the doctors who won't give prescriptions is not that they are closed minded, there is not enough data out there on the long term effects and despite attempt to portray this as a non harmful drug, there are dangers. I see no problem with a doctor wanting the best for their patient. I wish seeing the government is potentially putting placing this in every Canadians pocket over 18 yrs old, would spend the money for once and for all determine any benefits to treating any aliment or possible harm.

Any negative story even from credible sources is met with distrust and denial and lots of talk about big pharma and the man taking away their medicine.

I have no doubt of some people gaming the system and using a minor aliment to get high and having the government pay for it. That should be reduced and I think the first step is a comprehensive evaluation by a doctor at the practice face to face before MM is issued, and that goes for any drug with harmful side effects. While video interviews are convenient, its open to abuse.

Perhaps this will subside when this drug becomes mainstream but I hope reasonable limits will be placed on it to prevent abuse both for recreational use and medical use.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Someone I sailed with told me over Christmas that they'd started self medicating themselves about a year ago for pain relief.  They said that it made a huge difference in their quality of life and medical fitness.  They are soon releasing from the CF and will be looking at a more legit source of medication procurement.  

I can't say that I'm interested in trying it myself as I don't have the same needs as they do and it's been about 35 years since I had a joint.  More power to them if it's working and improves their quality of like. Go for it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I don't think it will go away at all when it becomes legalized and I think its legalization will become a train wreck for some people. I hope the number of restrictions are sufficient to keep it away the people who shouldn't have it. I don't see a change for veterans except that its price will probably increase and VA will probably cut back more or eliminate it was its now a recreational drug like alcohol.



 We seem to be at an impasse. We'll just have to wait and see. 

As far as price, that has actually fallen. My provider only charges what VAC requested. $8.50/gm. Lowered from +/- $12.00/gm. The price has gone down, not up. Alcohol is not strictly recreational, there are plenty of other uses for it, just like medical cannabis.

Social media is not where I go for news. Social media is full of charlatans, imposters and ne'er do wells. One has but to look at the US Presidential election coverage, to know it is not a place to looks for facts or credibility. Remember what was said about Wiki? That you can't believe it because anyone can put what they want there? Wiki has been replaced by the whole internet. Unless you're able to drill down and get right into the weeds. As far as drawing conclusions from online forums, caveat lector. It's not a source I depend on for true information.


----------



## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> We seem to be at an impasse. We'll just have to wait and see.
> 
> As far as price, that has actually fallen. My provider only charges what VAC requested. $8.50/gm. Lowered from +/- $12.00/gm. The price has gone down, not up. Alcohol is not strictly recreational, there are plenty of other uses for it, just like medical cannabis.



Absolutely and you know what it costs for a 40oz of liquor. Once the government and companies realizes they will make lots of money off it the prices will increase dramatically but not enough to drive everyone back to the dealers or make it too cheap. As you said you'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

There's little doubt in my mind that, in Ontario, recreational cannabis will be handled through the LCBO, with all it's requisite taxes, handling fees, stocking fees, etc. I expect that by the time they're done the extras will outstrip the price of the actual product. Then there will be the inevitable and requisite 'Smart Serve for Cannabis' course, that you can only get from the government. If Ontario gets greedy, they'll price themselves out of the market and the street dealers will hardly miss a beat.

If moonshine was available in quantity, the LCBO would be closed in a month.


----------



## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> There's little doubt in my mind that, in Ontario, recreational cannabis will be handled through the LCBO, with all it's requisite taxes, handling fees, stocking fees, etc. I expect that by the time they're done the extras will outstrip the price of the actual product. If Ontario gets greedy, they'll price themselves out of the market and the street dealers will hardly miss a beat.
> 
> If moonshine was available in quantity, the LCBO would be closed in a month.



Question for you, why not just grow it, wouldn't that be cheaper? Is that allowed?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Isn't it kind of crazy the government will charge you taxes and control the sale of a plant that grows in nature.  Maybe we should be taxed on the amount of sun we receive too.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Question for you, why not just grow it, wouldn't that be cheaper? Is that allowed?



 That's allowable and possible. As of April 2016, you have to apply, to Health Canada for permission to grow at home which needs to be accompanied by a doctor note. Once you have that, there's other considerations. Space.You need a good sized space to grow in. You could grow outside, but it'll likely disappear just before you harvest it. Strains and percentages. Most commercial cannabis is grown from cuttings. One of the larger providers that I inspected, had five 15' tall 'mother plants' that they took cuttings from and raised those to maturity. Those plants have trunks, not stems. That allows for always female plants of the same strength and quality. If you start with seeds, you have to separate the male from the female seeds. Male plants will screw up your grow. The plants require a constant airflow to move the plants leaves around, like outside. You can use just about any light, but some have advantages over others. You'll have to decide the size of your grow for which lights to use. LED grow lights, though fairly new, look very promising. The max wattage of your lights will help determine the yield. You'll have to decide your grow medium. Hydroponic is best, but your going to spend a lot of time mixing and applying the nutrients. People with a medical cannabis prescription can grow their own. They are allowed to hold up to 150 gm in possession at a time, when not growing. Health Canada has a formula you can use to determine how much you can grow. So, by their calculations, if you have a script for 5 gm a day, you can grow 25 plants, indoors, and have 1125 grams in storage. You can grow plants outside or plants inside (different yields). That's quick and dirty. There's much more to consider if you think you have a green thumb, but I doubt you'd save money in the near term. There are roughly 40,000 medical cannabis users in Canada.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Isn't it kind of crazy the government will charge you taxes and control the sale of a plant that grows in nature.  Maybe we should be taxed on the amount of sun we receive too.



 Opium poppies grow wild in nature, but you can't have one in your garden.


----------



## George Wallace

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> .......  Maybe we should be taxed on the amount of sun we receive too.



Ummmm.....With Cap and Trade and the new Carbon (Tax).....They have figured how to tax the air we breath.   [


----------



## Teager

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ummmm.....With Cap and Trade and the new Carbon (Tax).....They have figured how to tax the air we breath.   [



And then taxed that tax with HST in ON


----------



## Nudibranch

[quote author=recceguy 
You're right about the doctor shopping. It does happen. However, it's more widespread with narcotics, so why the concentration on cannabis patients?
[/quote]

1. Cannabis thread
2. Widespread with narcs because narcs have been prescribed forever. Prescribed cannabis is new.

Doctor shopping happens with almost everything. From narcs to "I want antibiotics for my viral cold." 

What makes the medical cannabis industry somewhat unique in the doctor-shopping aspect is its singular focus. The patient isn't going to a general pharmacy, s/he's going to a cannabis dispensary. S/he isn't being referred to a clinician who'll do a review of the condition and recommend any number of possible treatments, s/he is referred for a cannabis script, by an operation selling cannabis.

There are similar narc dispensaries (operating as "pain clinics", but their actual focus is prescribing opioids). They get busted with some regularity down south, as much as anything physician-related can be said to be regularly busted.

A non-pill example is also those Dr Bernstein clinics. I have a friend who worked for them as their doc. Client goes in, has a 5-min talk with doc, comes out with recommendation for the Bernstein program. Every client. Same recommendation.

Cannabis dispensaries and their recommended/associated docs function like that. It doesn’t mean the cannabis won't help the patient (or that the Bernstein diet wouldn't help the client), but in order to be honest let's recognize them for what they are. These associated doctors aren't trying to decide on the most proper course of treatment for the individual in front of them, whatever that might be  - they're there to prescribe cannabis.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I've seen no figures so far to uphold your assessment. That doesn't mean it's not happening.

However, without stats from reliable sources, this is no more than your opinion. If you have something to help prove your point, studies, police reports, Health Canada reports, College of Physicians, etc. I'd be most interested.

Cheers.


----------



## Nudibranch

recceguy said:
			
		

> I've seen no figures so far to uphold your assessment. That doesn't mean it's not happening.
> 
> However, without stats from reliable sources, this is no more than your opinion. If you have something to help prove your point, studies, police reports, Health Canada reports, College of Physicians, etc. I'd be most interested.
> 
> Cheers.



Check out the recommendations published by the College of Family Physicians of Canada (Authorizing Dried Cannabis (Medical Marijuana) for Chronic Pain or Anxiety: Preliminary Guidance), and compare with what even the VAC review says. 
For ex, that the prescribing doc should be primarily responsible for managing the condition the cannabis is rx for, including follow-ups. But hard to do from another province.
Or the "start low, go slow" vice how this was handled with our vetarans  - what "evidence" did the docs have exactly for such high dosage scripts? There's nothing in evidence-based med literature to support 10g/day, esp as starting doses for chronic conditions (8-10g being a not uncommon starting dosage according to the auditor's report on VAC usage of MM; Health Canada has cautioned a dosage above 5g max).

So what evidence are the physicians who rx 10g/day to start using?  They're not following Health Canada. They're not following College guidelines. I suppose they're doing what their patients want, but that's not what being a physician is about.

I support further clinical studies into MM. Definitely. There are some indications for which there already is some demonstrated efficacy - great. The conservative recommendations are due to a dearth of data.
But MM proponents tend to be demanding of hard evidence for risk of harm, or when what the med community generally considers too-high dosages is discussed, or when it's pointed out that there is no evidence of efficacy for x (or even risk of harm). Anxiety, for ex.

 OTOH, there's almost faith-based (certainly anecdote and personal experience based) acceptance of the benefits of weed for just about anything and everything. 

"Proving your point" goes both ways - and anecdote is merely a bunch of opinions from the medical evidence standpoint.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Maybe you misunderstand. I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just that before I impinge on some doctors' ethics or efficiency, I'd just like some formal numbers or reports. I don't think that's asking a lot. Do you? 

My doctor started me out small. I had a line to him all the time if I had questions or concerns. I had a session every three months where we would talk about it and change what we thought needed changing. So, when people talk about doctor shopping or bad ethics as all encompassing to their narrative, I just want to see what they are basing their opinion on so I can look at it and draw my own conclusions. Is that not fair?


----------



## Jarnhamar

recceguy said:
			
		

> Maybe you misunderstand. I'm not disagreeing with you. It's just that before I impinge on some doctors' ethics or efficiency, I'd just like some formal numbers or reports. I don't think that's asking a lot. Do you?
> 
> My doctor started me out small. I had a line to him all the time if I had questions or concerns. I had a session every three months where we would talk about it and change what we thought needed changing. So, when people talk about doctor shopping or bad ethics as all encompassing to their narrative, I just want to see what they are basing their opinion on so I can look at it and draw my own conclusions. Is that not fair?



Reading first hand accounts online (and people I know)  it seems like someone like me could read some google, drop a couple dollars, speak with a doctor I've never met before  for 5 minutes and walk away with a MMJ prescription.  I've even read one dispensary in TO will give it out to someone with a note from a chiropractor.

By comparison it seems like cf members like yourself have a hell of a lot more hoops to jump through to get it prescribed through VAC.


----------



## Nudibranch

Ah. Yes, misunderstood.

But being as we're less than 2 yrs under the doctor-"led" (as opposed to through Health Canada licensing of users) rx of MM, such reporting will take time. Right now there isn't even much guidance on what one should do.

However, given the paucity of research and when lacking credible medical evidence, conservative prescribing and following what guidelines there are from provincial and national medical regulatory bodies is clearly indicated.
Those docs prescribing a starting dose of 10g/day are pretty much doing the opposite of that.

That just so happens to be the compensated daily max. This kind of pattern isn't exactly unknown in the clinical world, or limited to potentially addictive meds - it's seen in initial assessments for MVA victims for whiplash, for ex, when the insurance compensation is capped at $x. Somehow all patients seem to need $x of treatment...in state A; in state B, where it's capped at $y, they require $y.

Jarnhamar - and are these (anecdotal to be fair) accounts the way in which you believe substances like MM *ought* to be prescribed?
You're describing less diligence than I'd get for some over the counter meds from the pharmacist. We as a society need to decide - is this serious medical treatment that ought to be handled like any other serious medical treatment, or should you be able to buy it like alcohol? In which case, please for the love of the gods keep docs out of it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Can a product not be both medicinal and recreational? It'll soon be available for recreational use anyway.





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Reading first hand accounts online (and people I know)  it seems like someone like me could read some google, drop a couple dollars, speak with a doctor I've never met before  for 5 minutes and walk away with a MMJ prescription.  I've even read one dispensary in TO will give it out to someone with a note from a chiropractor.
> 
> By comparison it seems like cf members like yourself have a hell of a lot more hoops to jump through to get it prescribed through VAC.


 
You probably could. My whole point is there is nothing out there showing how wide spread, or not, the problem is. Without it, we can't say it's something that requires immediate attention or not. Let's not forget how much of a problem it is with narcotics and how little they've been able to stop it. Perhaps, money would be better spent on actual studies on all the chemicals, and their effects, contained in cannabis, instead of trying to police doctors for something that may be relatively harmless.


----------



## PuckChaser

Alcohol used to be both, then real science proved it with limited medicinal value. Same thing with cocaine. Opiates have a variety of medical uses but are highly addictive and used illegally as a recreation drug. How do you both regulate something as a legitimate medicine and in the store down the street anyone can buy however much they want to smoke/eat?

Its funny you suggest actual studies and research on MMJ. The vast majority of people asking questions about the current policy here concur with more science needed line, but are immediately told they are just prohibitionists and burned at the stake.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> .
> How do you both regulate something as a legitimate medicine and in the store down the street anyone can buy however much they want to smoke/eat?



You mean like Aspirin?


----------



## Stoker

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Alcohol used to be both, then real science proved it with limited medicinal value. Same thing with cocaine. Opiates have a variety of medical uses but are highly addictive and used illegally as a recreation drug. How do you both regulate something as a legitimate medicine and in the store down the street anyone can buy however much they want to smoke/eat?
> 
> Its funny you suggest actual studies and research on MMJ. The vast majority of people asking questions about the current policy here concur with more science needed line, but are immediately told they are just prohibitionists and burned at the stake.



They are the same people who think its ok to drive after consuming Cannabis and it somehow doesn't affect them :


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Keep it on the topic folks.


----------



## Nudibranch

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> You mean like Aspirin?



Aspirin is an OTC med - you don't need it prescribed by anyone, and for the most part its cost comes out of pocket (exception being CAF with our OTC cards and base pharmacies, the OTC coverage Native Canadians have, etc).

Sure, it could be treated as an OTC. If Jarnhamar's example of how it's rx outside of VAC is true, it essentially already is - the rx is merely an admin rubber stamp.
So take the physician out of it and let people buy it like aspirin and Tylenol.


----------



## Stoker

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> They are the same people who think its ok to drive after consuming Cannabis and it somehow doesn't affect them :



What I want to know that obviously some pers medicate quite a bit during the day and reeceguy as the SME here may being able to comment. What do people who choose to or have to medicate heavily do in regards to driving? I imagine the same as drinking, to stop sometime before they drive like alcohol?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Nudibranch said:
			
		

> Aspirin is an OTC med - you don't need it prescribed by anyone, and for the most part its cost comes out of pocket (exception being CAF with our OTC cards and base pharmacies, the OTC coverage Native Canadians have, etc).
> 
> Sure, it could be treated as an OTC. If Jarnhamar's example of how it's rx outside of VAC is true, it essentially already is - the rx is merely an admin rubber stamp.



It's still " legitimate medicine".

The RX is mostly just a rubber stamp anyways.  Pretty sure I could go see a Doctor tomorrow about my chronic xxxxx pain and have a prescription for something addicting by the afternoon.



			
				Nudibranch said:
			
		

> So take the physician out of it and let people buy it like aspirin and Tylenol.



Like this?  I'm certainly not ready for that....


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## Fishbone Jones

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> They are the same people who think its ok to drive after consuming Cannabis and it somehow doesn't affect them :



I'm interested in knowing where you came up with the truth for this statement?


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## Fishbone Jones

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> What I want to know that obviously some pers medicate quite a bit during the day and reeceguy as the SME here may being able to comment. What do people who choose to or have to medicate heavily do in regards to driving? I imagine the same as drinking, to stop sometime before they drive like alcohol?



Sorry, didn't read down far enough before replying to you above.

 I did some checking and, obviously, there's not a lot out there on the subject as far as actually driving medicated. They have to establish a base line first. The .08 limit took years to settle on that amount. I expect it'll likely be the same. The problem they'll likely run into is the different chemicals in cannabis. Someone ingesting high THC strains will likely be impaired. THC is the psychoactive drug in cannabis. If a person was using a CBD dominant strain they likely wouldn't be high because in pure CBD strains there is little to no THC. So a test would have to be developed that only takes THC blood levels into account.

But back to the question. I don't know anyone that medicates and drives. I don't know how wide spread the problem is. Not a lot of info out there right now. We'll likely be inundated with news reports shortly after it's legalized though. I'm sure there's court challenges being prepared as we speak. So, yeah, treat the person at the party like someone that drank too much. It'll be easier though. Drunks get belligerent. Cannabis users just get more calm and copacetic. Also, alcohol may intensify the high without a rise in amount. Hope that answered the question.


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## Fishbone Jones

I found it interesting that VAC says MC is too expensive and pricing should be no more than $8.50 per, where, retail, in USD, is $12.00/ gm, that's +/- $16.00 CAD before HST, $18.00 CAD after taxes and ON SALE.

Now, the Feds think $8.50 CAD/ gm is a fair price. How will this square when Wynne decides on $20/gm at the LCBO. Here's the problem though. The street dealers will undercut that price in a New York minute and the LCBO has nothing but stale weed on their shelves.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

recceguy said:
			
		

> I found it interesting that VAC says MC is too expensive and pricing should be no more than $8.50 per, where, retail, in USD, is $12.00/ gm, that's +/- $16.00 CAD before HST, $18.00 CAD after taxes and ON SALE.
> 
> Now, the Feds think $8.50 CAD/ gm is a fair price. How will this square when Wynne decides on $20/gm at the LCBO. Here's the problem though. The street dealers will undercut that price in a New York minute and the LCBO has nothing but stale weed on their shelves.



Hard to say,......hard to find moonshine dealers in this town.


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## Lumber

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Hard to say,......hard to find moonshine dealers in this town.



Yes, but:

1. It's easier to grow cannabis than it is to make moonshine. Pot has been found growing wild with no care at all. You could just walk up and take it; can't grow moonshine on trees; and
2. Moonshine done badly can kill you; not so cannabis.

In summary, the possibility of black market cannabis is much higher than black market alcohol.


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## Halifax Tar

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Hard to say,......hard to find moonshine dealers in this town.



Just ask the right people


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## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> I found it interesting that VAC says MC is too expensive and pricing should be no more than $8.50 per, where, retail, in USD, is $12.00/ gm, that's +/- $16.00 CAD before HST, $18.00 CAD after taxes and ON SALE.
> 
> Now, the Feds think $8.50 CAD/ gm is a fair price. How will this square when Wynne decides on $20/gm at the LCBO. Here's the problem though. The street dealers will undercut that price in a New York minute and the LCBO has nothing but stale weed on their shelves.



I think more importantly will I be able to get it on ship as my duty free?


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## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> I found it interesting that VAC says MC is too expensive and pricing should be no more than $8.50 per, where, retail, in USD, is $12.00/ gm, that's +/- $16.00 CAD before HST, $18.00 CAD after taxes and ON SALE.
> 
> Now, the Feds think $8.50 CAD/ gm is a fair price. How will this square when Wynne decides on $20/gm at the LCBO. Here's the problem though. The street dealers will undercut that price in a New York minute and the LCBO has nothing but stale weed on their shelves.




As a former analyst, I foresee Mail Heists in the future, where MM shipments through Canada Post are hijacked.   :nod:


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## Fishbone Jones

Lumber said:
			
		

> Yes, but:
> 
> 1. It's easier to grow cannabis than it is to make moonshine. Pot has been found growing wild with no care at all. You could just walk up and take it; can't grow moonshine on trees; and
> 2. Moonshine done badly can kill you; not so cannabis.
> 
> In summary, the possibility of black market cannabis is much higher than black market alcohol.



There's more to growing than sticking a seed in the dirt. Moonshine is easy to make.......and safely. You just need to know what you're doing. Of course black market weed is more available. There was a time though, in my lifetime, where just about everyone made their own booze. Beer, wine, brandy, schnapps, People today would rather shop than spend time making it. That is the only reason you don't see much. That and the art is becoming lost. There's also a lot more distilling going on than people think. It's just that no one really talks about it unless your involved. But the thread isn't about the availability of alcohol.

You'd be darn lucky to come a cross a wild plant here and there is no telling the quality. You also need to be able to identify whether it's male or female. Indica or sativa? What are the genetics? Is it good for insomnia or does it keep you focused? There are tons of variables to consider when you find wild cannabis. Now if you find a female indica plant and all you want is to get high,  giggle and eat lots of chips, you'll probably be fine with your discovery. 😀


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## Stoker

More trouble for the medical Cannabis users. Sounds like the QA is just not there.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/company-caught-selling-tainted-marijuana-cant-trace-source-of-contamination/article34144902/?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile

Company caught selling tainted marijuana can’t trace source of contamination


A federally regulated medical marijuana company caught selling products tainted with a banned pesticide that can cause debilitating health problems has been unable to determine how the chemical got into its supply, raising new questions about the oversight of the industry.

Organigram Inc. said on Monday that it has wrapped up an internal investigation into a product recall announced in December, but has turned up "inconclusive findings" with "no hard evidence leading to the source of the contamination."

The company also said it would offer full refunds to customers who purchased the tainted product, after initially refusing over the past two months to give patients their money back. The refunds will cost $2.26-million, Organigram said, which represents a significant financial hit to company. The writedown is worth slightly more than the total sales reported by Organigram in its most recent quarter.

The decision to refund customers' money comes as Organigram faces the prospect of a class-action lawsuit over the tainted cannabis, which some patients say has left them experiencing serious health affects, including lung problems, rashes, and persistent nausea and vomiting. At least two law firms are looking at launching actions that would force the company to surrender profits related to the tainted product.

Organigram is one of three medical marijuana companies caught up in a banned-pesticide scare that has swept through the medical marijuana industry and raised concerns about Health Canada's oversight of the sector – particularly as Ottawa prepares to legalize cannabis for recreational use, creating what is expected to be a highly lucrative business.

Mettrum Ltd., Organigram Inc., and Aurora Cannabis Inc. announced late last year that they were recalling products after the pesticide myclobutanil was discovered in medicine sold to clients. Myclobutanil is outlawed on plants that are smoked because it produces hydrogen cyanide when heated and can cause serious health problems.

Monday's announcement by Organigram that its investigation could not determine the source of the problem casts further doubt on the credibility of the industry, which is licensed by the federal government to produce safe, pharmaceutical products for patients who use the drug to treat everything from cancer-related pain to epilepsy.

Several patients who consumed the tainted cannabis say they are not sure if they can trust the products again, particularly since Health Canada does not require regular safety testing for all 38 companies in the industry to ensure the medicine is clean.

Organigram maintains it has never used myclobutanil which is known in the industry as an easy but dangerous shortcut to dealing with outbreaks of mildew that can threaten crops. The company said it believes the banned pesticide may have gotten into its plants through "inputs" in the growing process, such as contaminated fertilizer or soil. In particular, Organigram officials suspect peat moss the company used for a time in 2016 may have been treated with myclobutanil before entering the facility, but the company has no conclusive proof and no longer uses the peat moss.

"As a result of the contamination issue, the company has instituted a series of new protocols to prevent a recurrence of any issue of this nature," Organigram said. "All inputs from outside suppliers are now tested before they are used. Inputs include such things as seeds, growing medium, fertilizers, water, etc."

Organigram once marketed itself as an organic grower of cannabis but has since lost that designation from global certification body Ecocert and will have to reapply. The company said it is now testing all of its product lots for pesticides before they are sold.

The Globe and Mail first uncovered the myclobutanil problem in Canada's federally regulated medical marijuana industry in December, revealing that a recall at Mettrum was due to the pesticide. However, neither Health Canada nor the company included that information in their official public announcements of the recalls.

A day after The Globe article was published, Organigram issued a public notice saying it too had been found selling products that contained myclobutanil, which is well known throughout the industry as a banned product. The problem was discovered almost by accident when Aurora tested a bulk shipment it purchased from Organigram for resale to clients.

The myclobutanil scare exposed a troubling blind spot in Canada's regulatory regime. Health Canada said recently that it had not required the industry to test for harmful pesticides, because the companies know they were not allowed and therefore should not be using them.

Though only three companies have issued recalls, several patients told The Globe they now don't know which of the 38 federally licensed medical producers can be trusted, because there is no regular pesticide testing to prove that banned chemicals are not being used. Prior to the recent spate of recalls, each company claimed to be putting the health of their patients first and producing trustworthy products.

Since the recalls, Health Canada has mandated that Organigram and Mettrum, which has since been purchased by Canopy Growth Corp., begin testing all their products for pesticides. Health Canada has also said it would introduce random testing for pesticides for the whole industry.

However, some companies don't think those efforts are enough to win back the confidence of patients.

CanniMed Therapeutics Inc., based in Saskatoon, has taken the unusual step of commissioning independent lab tests on some of its products and making the data public to show consumers that its medicine contains no banned pesticides.

The move is an effort by the company to distance itself from the myclobutanil worries that now loom over the sector.

Myclobutanil is approved for use on some foods, such as berries and grapes, because the chemical can be safely metabolized by the digestive system. However, when smoked, it creates hydrogen cyanide that enters the bloodstream directly through the lungs. Its manufacturer, Dow AgroSciences, issued a statement last month saying that the product is not approved for cannabis.

Myclobutanil has long been a concern among illegal grow operations, since it is considered an easy but very dangerous shortcut to saving a crop hit by a mildew infestation. As illegal storefront cannabis dispensaries proliferated across Canada last year in advance of legalization, Health Canada warned consumers that dispensary product was risky and sought to steer patients towards the regulated industry instead.

Health Canada told The Globe in September it had a zero-tolerance policy for contaminants such as myclobutanil and would consider revoking a company's licence if they were found using it.

But since the pesticide was discovered in legally produced marijuana products, Health Canada and the companies involved have instead sought to play down the problem. Mettrum and OrganiGram told clients the chemical was approved for use on fruit, giving the impression of safety, while leaving out the details about what happens when myclobutanil is heated. Meanwhile, Health Canada referred to the residue detected as "trace amounts" that are "low risk."

But Warren Porter, a top U.S. toxicologist, has questioned Canada's response to the problem, saying Health Canada and the companies "have no idea whether or not that's true," because there is no scientific data to support those assurances.


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## Fishbone Jones

In the end, it'll be up to Health Canada to get the regulations required in place. The community has know this for awhile and many have switched providers already. Hopefully, they'll have it sorted by the time that Trudeau legalizes it for the gen pop. If he ever does : Watch and shoot.


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## The Bread Guy

recceguy said:
			
		

> There's more to growing than sticking a seed in the dirt.


If it was easy, even Health Canada would have been able to grow it  ;D


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## the 48th regulator

Too bad,  Organigram was going to release the Trailer Park Boys strains.

Dileas

Tess


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## Navy_Pete

I think it was in Washington state there is a lot of work going on with different strains and they are working on doing actual studies on the different ratios of a lot of the different cannabinoids (vice just THC).  They are also working on developing some different ways to take it, like a time release dermal patch, or slow release oral pills.  Now that things are more out in the open, I think the knowledge will start to grow, although right now it mostly seems to be trial and error from the users passing on what strain works better for their particular disease/ailment, which is a start.

I think the recent supreme court decision on having the police be SMEs on determining if a driver is 'impaired' takes some of the need for a hard and fast limit on your bloodstream out of the equation.  It could equally apply to prescription medicine, being terribly tired, etc etc.  Could be prone to abuse, but makes sense in principle. I think generally people need to take responsibility for their own decisions; I know there have been days where I've been tired enough that after half a beer there was no way I was able to focus enough to be able to safely drive, even though I'm sure I was nowhere near the legal limit, so I just didn't.


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## Fishbone Jones

Medreleaf is my provider. Much of their product, including what I use comes from Tikun Olam from Israel. They are one of the world leaders in medical cannabis research. Israel is also way ahead of most in research into soldiers and PTSD treatment with cannabis.
http://www.tikunolam.com/mobile/contact.php


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## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> Medreleaf is my provider. Much of their product, including what I use comes from Tikun Olam from Israel. They are one of the world leaders in medical cannabis research. Israel is also way ahead of most in research into soldiers and PTSD treatment with cannabis.
> http://www.tikunolam.com/mobile/contact.php



MY LP as well phenomenal organization, and a leader in the industry.

dileas

tess


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## Amos

Tweed Main Street Sent me an email saying they are getting ready for legalization in canada and that to ensure they have supplies for us all the time, we get access to spectrum products. If we want their other products, they will have to be purchased as recreational. Whaaat?  I suspect other LP will follow suite? Thoughts?


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## The Bread Guy

This just out from a Senate subcommittee ...


> More research is needed to assess changes to the policy governing veterans’ access to medical cannabis, the Senate’s Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs said in a report released Wednesday.
> 
> The Canadian Armed Forces demand a lot from its members. Two out of five veterans experience chronic pain. One out of five has depression, while almost as many live with post-traumatic stress disorder. Although medical research on the therapeutic value of cannabis is still in its infancy, the subcommittee heard that use of cannabis has had beneficial effects for many veterans and that the number of veterans using opioids dropped significantly as medical cannabis prescriptions rose.
> 
> In 2016, Veterans Affairs enacted a new policy reducing the amount of medical cannabis eligible for reimbursement to three grams a day from 10 grams. It also capped the reimbursement rate at $8.50 per gram. This came about after the Office of the Auditor General of Canada recommended that Veterans Affairs try to contain costs for the medical cannabis program, which had climbed from $400,000 in 2013-14 to over $12.1 million in 2015.
> 
> One psychiatrist told the subcommittee that patients who had been stable became symptomatic again after the three-gram limit was imposed, though other witnesses said the limit is appropriate. With regard to the reimbursement cap, witnesses noted that cannabis oils — which allow for more exact dosage — are priced above $8.50 per gram and that potent strains for relief of severe and chronic pain are also more expensive.
> 
> The subcommittee makes five recommendations, including that Veterans Affairs periodically examine the $8.50-per-gram reimbursement rate. The subcommittee also recommends that the federal government make significant investments in research on the use of medical cannabis and on its potential effect on veterans’ consumption of prescription pharmaceuticals so as to better inform Veterans Affairs policies regarding medical cannabis.
> 
> *Quick Facts*
> 
> Between 1998 and 2015, 26% of regular force members were released from the Canadians Armed Forces for medical reasons.
> In 2016-17, Veterans Affairs spent $64 million on medical cannabis reimbursements — 5.7 million grams for 4,474 clients. After the new policy was implemented, spending dropped to $51 million in 2017-18 — but this paid for 6 million grams of cannabis for 7,298 clients.
> As of August 2018, Veterans Affairs Canada was reimbursing 8,175 veterans for medical cannabis.
> The Globe and Mail reported in May 2018 that 43% fewer veterans were using benzodiazepines (sedatives) and that 31% fewer were using opioids compared to 2012, when medical cannabis prescriptions spiked. Just a few days earlier, a Veterans Canada official had told the subcommittee that the department had found no decrease in the use of such drugs ...


Report downloadable @ link - here's the recommendations:


> RECOMMENDATION 1:
> That Veterans Affairs Canada improve its consultation mechanisms and use them more regularly to ensure greater and more transparent consultation of veterans and the professionals who work with them at all key stages of the development of new policies that affect them and to ensure that their experiences are genuinely considered in the department’s decision-making.
> 
> RECOMMENDATION 2:
> That Veterans Affairs Canada periodically examine the effects of its maximum reimbursement rate of $8.50 per gram on veterans’ access to the various cannabis products, including by consulting with veterans who use cannabis and experts, to fully understand the barriers this limit may create and their impact on veterans’ health.
> 
> RECOMMENDATION 3:
> That the Government of Canada quickly make significant investments in research on the use of cannabis for medical purposes, including:
> 
> specific research on veterans’ use of cannabis for medical purposes; and
> examining the potential issues resulting from over usage, and that the gathered data be disseminated to the public and health professionals.
> 
> RECOMMENDATION 4:
> That Veterans Affairs Canada undertake a detailed review of the potential impacts of medical cannabis use on Canadian veterans’ consumption of prescription pharmaceuticals and that the department publish the findings and an analysis of the net costs of cannabis reimbursements, taking into account the potential savings in reimbursements for other drugs.
> 
> RECOMMENDATION 5:
> That Veterans Affairs Canada, in collaboration with Health Canada, consider taking measures to ensure the availability of cannabis to veterans who use it for medical purposes.


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