# Army Mess dress in the Navy?



## banksant (14 Nov 2005)

If you transfer over to the Navy from the Army, can you still wear your army mess dress to Navy mess functions? 

Thanks in advance


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## buddyhfx (14 Nov 2005)

The uniform you wear is in accordance with the element you're in (Army, Air Force, Navy). When you switch element, you switch uniform. Either be DEU's or mess kit. In other words NO, if you wear Navy uniform you wear navy mess kit or your naval 1A's with bow tie.


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## Navalsnpr (14 Nov 2005)

Agreed..... you must wear the mess kit from which element that you currently belong to.


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## CallOfDuty (14 Nov 2005)

Hey there guys................from an uninformed civvie....................what exactly is a mess kit?
  Cheers guys
Steve
PS--- Just got called today for my interview and medical...........things are rolling and I can't wait!!!!!  Going in for NE tech. (a), (t) and (c)


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## banksant (14 Nov 2005)

Thanks guys, this is exactly what I thought, but I read this below?

CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS OF THE CME
A-JS-007-003/JD-001
6-7
15. Mess dress is individually tailored using the approved pattern that is available from qualified tailors of
military uniforms. The tailors on staff at clothing stores usually have lists of local tailors who are qualified to
make mess dress, otherwise it is advisable to check with peers to find a reputable tailor. It is important that
the tailor is experienced in making mess dress and that access to the proper fabrics is available.
16. Serving members who served with the Royal Canadian Navy, Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers, or
Royal Canadian Air Force who possess the former service pattern mess dress may continue to wear it.


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## buddyhfx (14 Nov 2005)

banksant said:
			
		

> 16. Serving members who served with the Royal Canadian Navy, Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers, or
> Royal Canadian Air Force who possess the former service pattern mess dress may continue to wear it.



From the wording of your quote, this would lead me to beleive that you would be entitled to wear your old uniform if you joined before the unification of the 3 forces (1968). I know that in my trade (firefighter) when we switched to our distinctive uniforms in the mid 80's, whoever joined before the unification and were still serving, they had the choice to either keep their old uniform or switch to Air Force. Before the unification there use to be naval firefighters, they were called ''Air Bos'n''. I don't know if there is any other trade like this....... I hope this help...

Cheers...


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## Neill McKay (14 Nov 2005)

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> Hey there guys................from an uninformed civvie....................what exactly is a mess kit?



Mess kit is a uniform equivalent in formality to black tie.  It's worn for formal evening functions, the most common of which is the mess dinner (a formal dinner for all of the members of a mess).


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## SeaKingTacco (14 Nov 2005)

When I switched from the Army to the Air Force, my course director at the Nav School asked the Wing Chief in Winnipeg for a ruling on this issue on our behalf (there was, Believe It or Not, 3 Artillery Officers on my Nav Course alone).  He apparently to the Air Force Chief.  The response was: your first mess kit is for life, especially since the crown pays not one red cent towards the cost of them.  We dutifully attached our Nav wings and carried on in red.

I eventually bought a new (air force) mess kit, but still drag the artillery one out, depending on the function.

Another former Artillery Officer brethern of mine is a MARS officer and he kept his Army Mess kit.  He wore it to several Navy functions and  did not get much, if any grief (he eventually bought a Navy Mess Kit, too).

Cheers!


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## Monsoon (14 Nov 2005)

banksant said:
			
		

> 16. Serving members who served with the Royal Canadian Navy, Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers, or
> Royal Canadian Air Force who possess the former service pattern mess dress may continue to wear it.


That's quite an old excerpt, but probably still on the books.  During the halcyon days of full unification, there was an appalling joke of a tri-service mess dress that they tried to foist on people for a while.  The exceptions listed above were so that people who served in the old RCN could keep their mess dress, but my understanding is that, in the navy at least, almost everyone purchsed navy mess dress whether they joined before or after unification.  Very few people went for the bus-driver black-tie look.

If that's the most current regilation regarding mess kits, I say it looks like it's a free-for-all.  Do whatever your mess lets you.


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## CallOfDuty (15 Nov 2005)

Thanks for the answer about what a mess kit is 
Steve


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## big_castor (15 Nov 2005)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> During the halcyon days of full unification, there was an appalling joke of a tri-service mess dress that they tried to foist on people for a while.



Well, the "universal" mess dress is still the on worn by the Air Force (less the collar badges...)


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## Peace (15 Nov 2005)

Aside from a formal dinner or christmas dinner or whatever,  What and where else can mess dress be used for?


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## Monsoon (15 Nov 2005)

Peace said:
			
		

> Aside from a formal dinner or christmas dinner or whatever,  What and where else can mess dress be used for?


Any civilian function where a dinner jacket and black tie would be worn.  The mess kit just serves as a military-themed tuxedo of sorts.


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## Navalsnpr (15 Nov 2005)

Here is anoth use for mess dress:

DQ Apprentice


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## geo (15 Nov 2005)

Peace said:
			
		

> Aside from a formal dinner or christmas dinner or whatever,   What and where else can mess dress be used for?


All in all, Mess Kit should only be worn on occasions where the wearing of a military uniform is appropriate... consequently, prior to wearing it to some civy gala or event where you aren't sure .... ask your superior(s)
It's yours, you paid for it BUT it's still a military uniform with military badges of rank and accoutrements. Being out on the street with it on your back can and will be interpreted to signify an official okie dokie support to the event.... even if it were the Hari Krishna (sp?) X-Mass carnival.


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## Zoomie (17 Nov 2005)

Your Mess Kit is your black tie suit - I have no other.  Therefore when I go to a wedding or event that states Black Tie is appropriate, I wear my Mess Kit.  I do not ask for permission, I am adult and know how to behave.  

I have met a few people who transfered from the Army and became pilots - they still wear their red jackets.

Keep in mind that Mess Kits are usually only worn by senior NCO's and Officer's - although I have seen a few Airforce MCpl's sporting them too.


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## silverbach (1 Jan 2006)

Does anyone know a link containing pics of the different uniforms that a naval officer can wear ?


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## Cloud Cover (1 Jan 2006)

You're not joining the mob, are you? 

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461550774_461511150_-1_1/Canadian_Navy_Uniforms.html


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## geo (2 Jan 2006)

Ummm... those are the two working suits the swabbies will wear in winter
paint the navy dress uniform white in summer

pics does not include "mess dress" which Officers (will) and Sr NCOs (may) wear


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## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

I have the PDF version of CFP 265 - it's dated 2001-06-15, so I don't know if it's been superceded.  It's also 17 Mb in size.

If you want it, PM me with your email address (make sure your account can TAKE a 17 MB attachment).

Alternatively, if one of the mods wants to post it here somewhere, I'd be more than happy.


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## Cloud Cover (2 Jan 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Ummm... those are the two working suits the swabbies will wear in winter
> paint the navy dress uniform white in summer
> 
> pics does not include "mess dress" which Officers (will) and Sr NCOs (may) wear



geo (Joe?)- that was directed at our resident defence lawyer, who I am quite sure couldn't give a rats ass about mess dress just yet- maybe later!! I don't think I have ever seen an NCO mess dress in the Navy, but I am sure there are several colorful bow tied variants.


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## the 48th regulator (2 Jan 2006)

Roy,


This may be a good spot to post it;

 Military Documents & Forms

dileas

tess


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## Roy Harding (2 Jan 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Roy,
> 
> 
> This may be a good spot to post it;
> ...



PM Inbound (so as to not hijack the thread)


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## dgrayca (2 Jan 2006)

Squadron CO said:
			
		

> Well, the "universal" mess dress is still the on worn by the Air Force (less the collar badges...)



Actually the "Universal" kit is double breasted similar to the Navy.  Though similar to the Air Force Mess Kit, it is totally different.


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## geo (4 Jan 2006)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> geo (Joe?)- that was directed at our resident defence lawyer, who I am quite sure couldn't give a rats *** about mess dress just yet- maybe later!! I don't think I have ever seen an NCO mess dress in the Navy, but I am sure there are several colorful bow tied variants.


NCO mess dress in navy will be 100% same as for the Officers (excl flashy gold braid)
NOC's have penchant for manly rank badges (coat of arms/crowns & wreaths and the like)

(BTW - Geo is for George.... just don't want to confuse with George Wallace and the other Georges out there )


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## Old_navy_062 (5 Jan 2006)

We wear the same mess kit as officers.  The exception to the pattern is that the gold stripe on the trouser may be worn by officers and CPO1's only.


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## Journeyman (6 Jan 2006)

banksant said:
			
		

> If you transfer over to the Navy from the Army, can you still wear your army mess dress to Navy mess functions?



Well, it's just got to be said - - yes, you can wear your Army Mess Kit. You will be considered a social climber, however, because while the Navy claims to be the "senior service," the Army is obviously "superior."

Note that even in the link that Whiskey601 posted of the Navy uniform, the naval officer is wearing jump wings - - not a dive badge, or submariners' dolphins. Clearly, he wished to be thought of as having some affiliation with the Army.

In sum, zoomies, humans don't have wings; swabbies, notice we have no gills. We live on land. Army is the superior service. Thus, wearing Army Mess Kit at a Navy function will probably find you surrounded by admirers, buying you drinks.

I could be mistaken or biased, of course.   ;D


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## silverbach (6 Jan 2006)

Well, if Army is superior, you will need to define that term (superior) considering that more than half of all disciplinary actions taken against CF members or criminal offences perpetrated by CF members are NCM from the Army...

...can't wait for that definition of superior...probably not in military law !  ;D ;D ;D


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## the 48th regulator (6 Jan 2006)

silverbach said:
			
		

> Well, if Army is superior, you will need to define that term (superior) considering that more than half of all disciplinary actions taken against CF members or criminal offences perpetrated by CF members are NCM from the Army...
> 
> ...can't wait for that definition of superior...probably not in military law !  ;D ;D ;D



Ladies and Gents,

A fine example of a civvy trying to "fit in" and shoving his foot into his mouth, as an NCM from the army shoves their foot in his as......I will stop. hopefully others will as well....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Get the hint Matlock?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




dileas    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




tess


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## silverbach (7 Jan 2006)

You know, graduate students in sociology would have a ball in here reading these threads...I know I do, especially when some of these fine replies are coming from some members of the directing staff.

I would be very interested in knowing what drives a member of the directing staff to write in this manner. I wonder what does it do to one’s ego to blast other people in these forums. 

Well, Sergeant, before making statements about my foot and my mouth, may be you should take a long, hard look at the last annual report from Major-General Jerry S.T. Pitzul, JAG...and you will find out that between you and me, you’re the one shooting yourself in the foot !

I would have tought that officers just as well as NCM from the CF would take their responsabilities and not behave in a manner which would indicate forms of discrimination with regards to non-military members of army.ca. 

What kind of image of the CF do you think you are presenting to the civilians in here ? Is this your idea of Superiority, Sergeant ?


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## Burrows (7 Jan 2006)

Silverbach, you're not winning anything here.  I suggest you go take your "Annual Report" and wait until you're actually in a position of authority, before telling the 48th that he represents the CF badly.  Books are one thing, experience is another.

Tess is possibly one of the greatest men I have ever had the pleasure of working with.

Being DS doesn't mean we aren't allowed to voice our opinions.

Judging from the tone of your previous post, I believe being told to shove it would be a nice answer.


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## the 48th regulator (7 Jan 2006)

Well "Sir",

What Authority do you have, as a poster, and a Civilian that wants to take a dig at NCM's?  Did you feel offended that I would use smileys, as you did to lighten up the attack?  

My what a fine analyst you are in finding out that I was a Sgt. Lucky how you pointed out that I am a directing staff acting childish.....sense the fact that there are some that see you are also trolling the site for a punch up?

You want to be Jag eh?  Nice to see that you would be willing to represent all...

dileas

tess

directing staff...Sgt....someone that sees through your veil...

cheers Kyle!!


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## Michael OLeary (7 Jan 2006)

Gents, I'm locking this one for the night; to your corners please.

Ref


Reopened 1935 hrs 9 jan.

Keep it clean gentlemen.


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## Journeyman (9 Jan 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I could be mistaken or biased, of course.   ;D



[Peering cautiously out from the rubble....]
Well, I certainly didn't see THAT thread hijacking coming.  

As way of explanation, my initial post was intended as what we call   h u m o u r.  Now, clearly one cannot very well explain comedy. Start your research with the stumpy Lieutenant in "Good Morning Vietnam." 

I was then going to suggest, for any self-important grad students (or even grad student wannabes) out there, having a look at the verbal spanking Matt Damon's character gave to the pompous grad student in the bar scene from "Good Will Hunting," but Michael re-opened this thread with a caution about playing nice......so I won't    

To bring the thread back on topic....yes, you can wear your Army Mess Kit in the Navy. You _may_ take some ribbing about it, but I can't imagine anyone who's a member of Army.ca being overly sensitive, so it shouldn't be any problem.


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## geo (9 Jan 2006)

Hey, wearing Scarlet Mess Kit as I was waiting for my lady @ Ritz Carlton in Montreal; Yank client of the hotel wanted me to get him a cab & look after his luggage.

He figured out I didn't work for the hotel after I loaded up his luggage onto a cart that was headed up the hotel's elevetor.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (4 Mar 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Hey, wearing Scarlet Mess Kit as I was waiting for my lady @ Ritz Carlton in Montreal; Yank client of the hotel wanted me to get him a cab & look after his luggage.
> 
> He figured out I didn't work for the hotel after I loaded up his luggage onto a cart that was headed up the hotel's elevetor.



He he yep...I once got asked what time my bus departed for Hope in the Vancouver Airport...back in the days when we were all in the Jolly Green Giant suit....

Back to the topic...Mess Dress...may be purchased by all ranks....the bandsmen and women all have it if they play in quartets etc. Senior NCOs I've seen lots of them in it too, especially if they work in Ottawa or Borden.
For most NCMs it's a waste of money (Army Scarlet doeskin is in excess of $900 CDN...Navy even more).
Officers must purchase it within a year of their commissioning. If you re-classify you are entitled to wear your mess dress that you originally bought...I still know a few Navy and Army Guys who were in before 84 who wear the midnight blue one (cause they are too cheap to buy their elemental one lol)
I served with a Dragoon in Pet in the early nineties who still had his navy mess kit that he bought prior to reclassifying to Armoured.
For Officers they wear it roughly 5-10 times a year depending on what unit or base they are on. I've been posted to Halifax since July of 05 and have worn it twice...maybe one more time this spring. A lot of the functions now are not compulsory as they were when I first joined...so really you can get away for years without wearing it.....and funny thing is when you leave it in the closet too long it shrinks!!! Go figure! (or is that Gone figure?)


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## geo (5 Mar 2006)

well, my 1st unit's mess kit was somewhat of a "one of" thing. Patterned after a Brit unit's 1920's design... and this one was made out of Barathea.

When I moved to the CME, had the messkit modified for the right facings, etc.... end result is that I still wear Barathea .... and it's a lot cooler to wear than the Doeskin....
also doesn't cost the same dough (pun)....


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## IN HOC SIGNO (6 Mar 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> well, my 1st unit's mess kit was somewhat of a "one of" thing. Patterned after a Brit unit's 1920's design... and this one was made out of Barathea.
> 
> When I moved to the CME, had the messkit modified for the right facings, etc.... end result is that I still wear Barathea .... and it's a lot cooler to wear than the Doeskin....
> also doesn't cost the same dough (pun)....



I'm with you mate...barathea all the way.....and I got the white jacket when I was in Cyprus so I don't cook in the summer (at 40 pounds it was a bargain).


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## geo (6 Mar 2006)

40pounds?.... you look heavier than that!
:warstory:


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## IN HOC SIGNO (8 Mar 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> 40pounds?.... you look heavier than that!
> :warstory:



Whoa is me! yes unfortunately it's true!! Middle Age spread has done come and done it's worst  :'(


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## geo (11 Mar 2006)

the one thing that drives me crazy are the vests that tailors insist in making for the slim and trim young subbies.
once they grow up and grow into their mess kit, the vest rides up and that white shirt peeks out from below the vest - makes the wearer look like a slob.

For those that are buying mess kit - do yourself a favour and ask the tailor to make the vest front a little longer - for the full figure you - once you become full figured


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