# LUVW Project



## Fishbone Jones (24 May 2001)

Looks like it may be the Mercedes after all. The National Post says today that the gov‘t will probably pick the mercedes. I‘ve included the artcle cause it‘s small and the link will be dead tomorrow.  At the stated price of approx $175,000.00 per copy, I don‘t expect much. Also don‘t know how this will affect the military / civvie pattern issue. Should know soon. So much for an armoured, NBC tight vehicle.Looks like an uptown iltis.

                    OTTAWA - A German company is expected to walk away with a
                    $140-million contract to provide a new jeep-like vehicle to the
                    Canadian army after being the only bidder for the project. The army
                    is expected to purchase 802 Mercedes-Benz vehicles at a cost of
                    about $175,000 each. Mercedes-Benz won the contract after some
                    of the world‘s largest manufacturers of military vehicles refused to
                    bid because of Canadian rules to select the least expensive vehicles
                    that meet government specifications. 

Here‘s the specs. Might see a LS replacement down the line from the same family of vehicles.
G-wagon models with three wheelbases and
                        payload capacities from 0.5 up to 2.0 tonnes
                        complement the range of military vehicles. The
                        power comes from a 2.9 litre five-cylinder
                        turbocharged intercooled diesel engine
                        producing 88kW (120 hp) and 280 Nm. The
                        off-road capability is supported by an
                        automatic transmission and a two-shaft
                        transfer case plus 100% locking differentials
                        on both axles.


----------



## centurion (24 May 2001)

Smells like a gov‘t bailout! After announcing the millions of dollars the Liberal king and court are sending down to Windsor, Ontario for a Daimler-Chrysler development centre, they want to protect their investment and milk it for votes. We guess after years of seeing this you just automatically look at the seething underbelly of things first. Let‘s just hope they do right by the soldier for a change, instead of thinking of themselves. We‘ll wait on an official announcement before getting the liquor in.


----------



## John Nayduk (24 May 2001)

$175,000 for that.  No protection, no NBC defence, no weapon mount (I know, we shouldn‘t need it but it‘s nice to have just in case...).  At least we wouldn‘t have to keep hearing the electric fans.


----------



## centurion (24 May 2001)

Not a lot when you consider "la petite gars" gave his son in law at Bombardier about the same for the iltis. Difference being at least this time the bid was public as opposed to him just giving it to a cronie during a round of golf.


----------



## John Nayduk (24 May 2001)

At least it‘s new and should take us into a new goverment in power, for better or worse.


----------



## donkreel (24 May 2001)

It‘s not like the thing isn‘t used by any other military.   Denmark, Hungary, Germany, Norway and Sweden all use the G-wagen.  Its been around, in one form or another, for 20 years, so it‘s not like it‘s unproven.  The competition (hmmm...one bidder....) has minimum requirements...The initial requirement called for a hard-topped LUV, powered by a diesel engine with an automatic transmission. It has to carry four troops within a payload of 750kg, must have four doors and must provide appliqué armour protection against 7.62mm projectiles, artillery fragments and 1kg mines.  A recce version w/turret ring is one of the variants that would be bought...  Whoever gets the contract...at least it isn‘t those thieves from Western Star with their God-Awful LSVW hybrid M1044!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 May 2001)

We might be getting off on the wrong track with the G wagon. Spoke to a couple of guys that were in Kosovo last year and they say Mercedes has another vehicle that is in use over there. It‘s closer in configuration to the Eagle, which makes the cost a little more believable. Haven‘t found any pictures as of yet, but will keep looking. This sounds more like the one rather than the G Wagon.


----------



## donkreel (25 May 2001)

Remeber, the cost includes spare parts, the armour (a requirement of the contract), training for the maintenance pers (someones has to fix the things...) and the cost of running the project office.  Still doesn‘t sound kosher, but we will get more than just the vehicle for the price paid. MB has stated that the vehs will be built in Austria, so it looks like we can avoid paying for the licenseing fee for Bombardier/Western Star to build them over here (like we did with the Iltis/LSVW).  The Belgians paid around thirty thousand dollars Cdn for each Iltis they bought from VW.  We, the suckers, paid over sixty thousand per unit from Bombardier...


----------



## bossi (27 May 2001)

Thanks for posting the article - I was out of town all week, and would have missed it otherwise.

I‘m ambivalent - it sounds like a reasonably good "jeep", and apparently other armies agree.

So what if it‘s made in Canada?  Hopefully Canadian workers will be mindful of the fact they‘re building them for their own army, instead of being made by foreigners who wouldn‘t care as much.  And, if there are economic benefits for Canada - is that a bad thing?  For example, if we could sell them under license to somebody else in North/Central/South America, it would keep the production line open longer (and thus, if we decided to buy some more of this same vehicle, it would be much more feasible ... as opposed to re-opening a closed production line).  If some smart marketing executives got on board, they could also produce a civvie version of this vehicle - there are always eccentrics who‘d like to buy a vehicle used by the military (e.g. the civvie version of the Hummer) - more proof can be seen in the popularity of the Jeep itself!

Anyway - as long as I can get in and out of this thing more easily than the teensy-weensy Iltis, I‘m going to be happy.

Then, we‘ll only have to replace the LSVW with something sensible - Unimog, anyone?

(hmmm ... wouldn‘t it be interesting if this pork barrel contract for Windsor was a consolation prize for Herb Gray, instead of the helicopter contract?)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (27 May 2001)

Like I say, we may be getting off on the wrong angle thinking it‘s the G Wagon. There is an amoured scout vehicle out there made by Mercedes. Also the G Wagon won‘t fit the profile of the contract (turret ring, etc). I‘ve been away all weekend at the LFCA Small Arms Competition in Borden, but will try and track some info and pics of this other (elusive so far) Mercedes. Keep watching and if anyone can find anything on it let‘s have it.


----------



## donkreel (28 May 2001)

I did some digging and found the Steyr-Puch "Pinzgauer".  Daimler owns an interest in Steyr.   I looked over the specs of the P-gauer, and they‘re very eye-opening...especially the (claimed) ability to take a 100% grade...
Go here for the specs....

Steyr Specs

Here‘s a shot of the 5 door variant.....ugly, but if it can do half of what Steyr claims, might be the way to go....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 May 2001)

Hee hee, I don‘t think it would make much of a recce vehicle. But if that‘s what they give me, I‘m sure some local mods for crew comfort would be in order. Card table that turns into a double bed, propane refrigerator, indoor shower unit, four burner stove and enough cupboard space to stow the empties. Good try though Don. Maybe we can all keep looking and posting pictures till the official announcement. Bragging rights to the winner (I told you so!!) Kind of a liberal government procurement Bingo game. Any takers?


----------



## donkreel (28 May 2001)

Could be from the "hide in plain sight" school of thought....

"Hey, what‘s that boxy thing trying to hide in the treeline...an olive drab RV couldn‘t be anything threatening...oops, it‘s Canadian....FIRE!!!"


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 May 2001)

Here‘s a picture I scooped from SOCNET. The author (donk) says it accompanied an article from the Ottawa Citizen he saw announcing the LUVW contract. Yup, that‘s the G Wagon.  :fifty: Luv these new smilies!


----------



## Doug VT (30 May 2001)

I had a ride in a Dutch Army one a couple of weeks ago (the same one pictured above) and I was impressed.  The seats were more comfortable and it had a great deal more power then the iltis.  Much more sound insulation and the entire inside had a balistic kevlar blanket which could be eaisly removed.  The back had two drop down seats on the sidewalls and plenty of room for kit, well a lot more than the Iltis anyway. It was a three door with the back one being a one hinge on the left hand side jobby. Overall I think that it‘s heads and shoulders over the Iltis and I‘m sure that there will be an ECC for everything!  If not, then we‘ll just modify like always, flexibility is the key!

Airborne!


----------



## Cdntroop (30 May 2001)

I think the Canadian Forces is looking in the wrong direction... if it is the mercedes.... it‘s an Iltis with a face lift, what would we want with a vehicle that is dated?  that affords no protection?  and as a Recce soldier myself just looking at it tells me that in buying this we will run into the same problems as we did with the iltis.   The CF should be looking at a vehicle that could with mods replace the LS as well as the aging Iltis.


----------



## Doug VT (31 May 2001)

Give me a break.  What the hell did you expect?  I think that it‘s a hell of a lot better than what could have been.  What do you mean by "Protection"?  It‘s not supposed to be an APC, or an IFV, or a Tank but you should know that if you say that you‘re ARMOURED Recce.  It does have ballistic protection, which is all that is required.  Put too much armour on a light vehicle such as this and you need a larger engine.  Even so, more weight, more wear and tear on the powertrain.  At least we‘re getting something better instead of worse, which is what the Government is doing to the Sea King project.  It just disgusts me!  If anyone is interested, I will take some pictures of the proposed "LUVW" tonight, inside and out, and I‘ll post them tomorrow.

Airborne!


----------



## donkreel (31 May 2001)

Post those pics if ya can....  I‘m hoping the interior is a bit bigger than the Iltis...barely fit in the drivers seat, let alone getting in and out of the back when the canvas and doors are on....


----------



## the patriot (2 Jun 2001)

Hmmmmmm...... and for those of us who would like to own a chunk of the future scrap metal heap, I hear Crown Surplus out in Calgary is selling surplus Itis vehicles as we speak!!!!!  Here‘s the link below.
http://www.armyandnavy.com 

-the patriot-


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Jun 2001)

Well, looked all over and couldn‘t find a ref for any other recce veh made by MB. Did find ref to the fact that DaimlerChrysler will be producing a civvie pattern at a cost of about $110,000. Sounds about right. Doug, any luck with those pictures?


----------



## Doug VT (3 Jun 2001)

Sorry about the delay, been busy.  The pictures are in the photo gallery under "equipment" I made a mistake and put one under "general"  If there are any question, feel free.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Jun 2001)

Doug!!
How excellent is that!    Kudo‘s bro!   Now that I‘ve had a better look, I don‘t feel so bad about the vehicle. It definitely has potential. I‘m sure there‘ll be Canadian mods to fit the bidding criteria (hopefully they‘ll increase the potential). Again, thanks for taking the time, great work. BTW, enjoyed your other pics also. Stay safe.


----------



## bossi (6 Jun 2001)

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!
Nobody told me that the G-wagon has the approval of Janet Jackson, J-Lo, Eddy Murphy, and ... The Great One himself!!!
Heck - what are we waiting for????

(tee-hee ... sometimes it‘s useful to read the entire article, eh?  My earlier comment about marketing a civilian variant now rings truer than ever, I suggest.)

Military eyes Mercedes-Benz
German automaker only bidder on contract to supply 802 vehicles costing $175,000 each
a journalist
The Ottawa Citizen



Courtesy of Europa International / Canadian soldiers may soon be driving a military version of the Mercedes-Benz that has captured the fancy of, Janet Jackson, Wayne Gretzky, Jennifer Lopez and Eddie Murphy. The army variant, known as a Gelaendewagen, will be built in Austria.

A German company is expected to walk away with a $140-million contract to provide a new jeep-like vehicle to the Canadian army after being the only bidder for the project. 

The army is likely to buy 802 Mercedes-Benz vehicles at a cost of around $175,000 each. 

Mercedes-Benz came out on top after some of the world‘s largest manufacturers of military vehicles decided against bidding on the project because of Canadian rules designed to select the cheapest vehicle available that meets government specifications. 

That is different from other military programs, where vehicles are given consideration for their capabilities as well as low cost. Other companies declined to bid because they did not believe it was worth their while to alter their vehicles to meet specific Canadian military requirements. 

The latest turn of events is just one of the many bumps in the army‘s attempts, started in 1991, to buy new light utility vehicles. 

The program was delayed in 1998 after Defence Minister Art Eggleton intervened to ensure that a vehicle built by Western Star Trucks of B.C. would be eligible for the project. But Western Star decided last year not to bid after determining there was limited military sales for its vehicle outside Canada as most countries opt for trucks built by their own manufacturers. 

General Motors in London, Ont. and Land Rover of England, both of which had planned to bid on the Canadian Forces project, also decided against getting involved. The American company building the Hummer, the standard vehicle used in the U.S. military, also dropped out of the competition. 

It‘s not known whether Mr. Eggleton‘s intervention to change the program‘s original rules to include Western Star was a factor in the decisions by various companies not to bid. Industry representatives are tight-lipped about their reasons. 

Inside the Department of National Defence, however, there was concern about the effect of Mr. Eggleton‘s changes and the delays it caused. "Our credibility with industry has suffered," wrote one frustrated senior officer in a 1998 e-mail obtained by the Citizen. 

Stanley Ing, director of industrial benefits for Mercedes Benz Canada, said there is no absolute guarantee that his firm will win the vehicle contract, since its bid still has to be reviewed by government officials. "By no means is it a shoo-in, but it does help in the sense that we are the only competitor," he said. 

Mr. Ing said the Mercedes vehicle, called the Gelaendewagen, will be built in Austria and shipped to Canada. Canadian companies such as DEW Engineering, working in Atlantic Canada, would install Canadian army components such as radios and racks for weapons. 

There are 80,000 Gelaendewagens in service with various militaries in Europe, Africa, South America and Asia. 

While the average cost of the vehicles works out to $175,000, that price tag also includes spare parts, manuals, armoured plating, installation of army equipment and the cost of running the project office at the Defence Department. 

Defence Department officials did not respond to a Citizen request for information on the project. But Lt.-Col. Tom Temple, who heads the light utility vehicle program, recently told Jane‘s Defense Weekly that regardless of how few bids are received the competition will run as planned. 

"The terms of the (request for proposals) is lowest-cost-compliant, and if Mercedes is the only one that bids and they are compliant then they get the contract," he said. 

Mr. Ing said the Gelaendewagens are proven vehicles with low maintenance costs. Parts would be available around the world at Mercedes dealerships. Mercedes is a division of DaimlerChrysler, the German-U.S. auto giant. 

But Canadian Alliance MP Peter Goldring said the Forces should be buying a vehicle built in North America. 

"We should be buying a first-class, first-rate vehicle, and I refuse to believe we do not have the expertise in this country," said Mr. Goldring, vice-chairman of the Commons Standing Committee on Defence. 

The Gelaendewagens will replace the Iltis vehicle fleet, which is at the end of its mechanical life. In 1995 Canadian military officials warned that the Iltis should be replaced by 1999 as they were rusting out and by that date would be degraded so badly they would be almost useless. 

"I shudder to think how much we are spending (and have spent over the years) to keep this thing on the road," then-army commander Lt.-Gen. Bill Leach wrote in 1999.


----------



## bossi (6 Jun 2001)

If it IS the G-wagon, then there is already a civvie pattern vehicle. It is widely sold in Europe, but for some reason not in North America. Gelaendewagen is the name.


----------



## the patriot (13 Jun 2001)

So is anyone buying the Itis out at Crown Surplus?!   

http://www.armyandnavy.com 

-the patriot-


----------



## Nate2 (25 Jun 2001)

For those of you perhaps worried that the G-wagon is not good for the CF because it does not have a support weapons capability, see below.  This vehicle is the "Wolf" fast attack version of the G-wagon being procured for the USMC. It is a variant of the G-wagon and would likely make a decent RECCE or fire support vehicle for the militia light infantry company weapons dets.  Looks pretty good.  With a Ballistics kit and C-6 or M-2, or even a MK-19 or lightweight TOW pedestal, it seems this vehicle would be as decent a choice as the Defender or the Brute.











Regards, 

Nate


----------

