# Canadian recruiters are incompetent



## BLACKBERRY (8 Aug 2004)

Hello everyone.
My dream in life is to become a PPCLI infantry officer. I am twenty nine years of age and a third year university student majoring in sociology. I have been trying to join the army for the past several years. Unfortunately, I have received nothing but false information and incompetence from the staff members who work in the Vancouver downtown office. The first incident happened 2 years ago when I had just finished my first year of post secondary and decided to go and check out the recruiting center. The CEOTP program was open at the time and I asked the recruiters what qualifications I needed. They told me  that I just had to be a grade twelve graduate and that since I already had a year of university completed, I should have no problems getting into the program. They told me I would have to wait about 10 months before I would be able to go to officer school. I wrote the aptitude test and passed the security checks and physical. The problem was that they neglected to inform me that you needed Math and a pure science 12. When I graduated in 1996 you did not need Math 12 or a pure science to graduate. I took Biology 12, English 12, and Math 11, in order to graduate I also took History 12 and others to finish my diploma. Instead of doing my second year of post secondary I could have taken Math and Chem 12 which would have been free. I would have then had the qualifications to join as an officer. They called me 9 months later and I walked into my interview thinking I would be good to go. The officer told me that she was very sorry that I was not given the proper information and that the ceotp program would be closing this year. I have know completed Math and Chemistry 12 since they told me that even with a degree I would need these courses. The point is these idiots screwed up my chance of getting in just because they were to lazy to check to see if there were any pre requsists that I would need along with being a high school graduate. Another problem I had was that they were always losing pieces of my file. This happened on 5 different ocasions. They lost my refrences, medical files, and parts of my original application. The point to my story is that these recruiters are un educated idiots who could care less about potential recruits. I have know decided to join the reserves as a ncm while i am finishing my degree, and over the last 3 months they have lost parts of my file again.
My cousin is a recruiter for the British Army who works in the Strand office in England. I have told him what has happened to me and he thinks the Canadian army recruiting is 
a joke. His office has less recruiters then the Vancouver office and they never loss peoples files. M


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Aug 2004)

You should have gotten the names of the individuals you were dealing with so that you could report their conduct to their superiors.  It always sounds unpleasant when you are asking someone their name, but it is a good habit to get into.  No way to complain until you have a name to use.  Trouble is, losing paperwork usually isn't the fault of the person "at the counter", but definitely there was no excuse for not giving you the proper info on prerequisites.  Unless for some reason - just exploring the options here - you were rude, dressed like a scumbag, or otherwise didn't seem like a serious candidate.


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## skura (8 Aug 2004)

Perhaps a better name for this thread would have been "Vancouver recruiters are incompetent"...unless of course there are unwritten complaints from others on this site...is it really this bad everywhere in Canada or just a select few idiots at a select few locations...don't get me wrong here, I'm on your side, but it can't possibly be this bad everywhere...


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## Sundborg (8 Aug 2004)

I was recruited through the Vancouver RC without many problems.  When I was applying for the ATIS Tech trade, which was around early June; they neglected to tell me until the beginning of september that the selection for the trade wasn't happening until around Oct/Nov.  That gave me a couple of months of wasting time, when I could have went for a different trade instead.  They also lost a couple of my papers in which I had to re-fax there.
The Vancouver RC has a few hicups that need to be sorted out. I know not everyone is perfect, but this is just a reaccuring problem.


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## Scoobie Newbie (9 Aug 2004)

It seems losing paperwork is commonplace.  There have been investigations on this within 2VP.


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## Big Foot (9 Aug 2004)

I feel that this is quite an unfair statement as when I went through CFRC Calgary, I was provided with excellent information, both about ROTP and Reserves. The staff at the recruiting centre were friendly, well informed and very helpful. The only place where I encountered any problems was after my selection to the ROTP Juniour Applicant Program, though that was through no fault of the recruiters. Prep year for RMC is very under-advertised with few people, outside those who have actually done a year at Campus Fort Saint-Jean. really knowing what it is like. I went into Prep year blind, relying on outdated and inaccurate information which I had received. After prep year, I really feel that I was adequtely briefed by the staff at CFRC Calgary about the basics of military life, etc. And hey, if our recruiters are so incompetent, why are tere so many good people in the forces? 
P.S. - ANyone seeking information about RMC Prep Year in Saint-Jean, feel free to message me


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## Jarnhamar (9 Aug 2004)

I've been waiting all summer to hear back from the recruiting office. This will be my 4th (and last)time putting in my CT.


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## rormson (9 Aug 2004)

I've been dealing with the CFRC Kitchener, ON and have to say that the Staff have all been excellent, aside from one airforce OCdt with an attitude. 

I do think that there are enhancements that can be made to the procedures to speed up the process (and no these would not require $$ or more personnel) - - The onus is, however, on the applicant to have his/her **** together when applying. I've spent more than a   few hours in the waiting room at the CFRC watching guys come in ill prepared for the paperwork, etc. 

Too bad that Vancouver's RC may not be working smoothly - - there is no excuse for 'losing' paperwork. I don't think it's fair to say that all of the recruiters are incompetent though.


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Aug 2004)

I think these kinds of problems may be systemic, with regards to all types of administration - computers are wonderful things but no one seems to use them to full advantage.  We have the technology to use bar scanners, for example.  We have the ability to serialize forms.  We can track registered mail via computer, but we don't have the ability to do the same with important documents like pers files?  I see the same thing at my civvie job - we have expensive customized software to do scheduling and payroll, but employees have no capacity to see their work schedule on the internet - they have to come in to work and try and get on to one of the few computer work stations which are constantly in use.  

I don't think the internet is the solution for the army due to operational security issues, but certainly we can do a better job of modernizing and tracking important paperwork.  For starters, have recruits come into the CFRC and type their applications directly into a secure terminal, or save it on a floppy and send it in where the CFRC staff can save it to their server and erase the floppy.  birth certificates and all that other stuff can be scanned, certified as true copies, and saved to a central database - then it can't get lost.  

Paper files build up and important, time sensitive stuff simply gets lost on a desk - electronic lists of "things to do" are much harder to lose.

Etc.


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## rormson (9 Aug 2004)

The electronic means of sharing the information suggested above is a good idea provided that the CF has extremely tight virus protection enabled at the CFRC's. The electronic means Michael mentioned should be investigated. My experience is that everything gets printed out at some point though - - the idea the computers actually save paper can sometimes backfire depending on the situation. 

I still think that "losing" the type of information that is submitted during the course of an application for the CF is scary - - birth certificates, marriage licenses, SIN numbers, etc. are great tools for criminals/terrorists/fraud artists to build fake IDs from. Temporarily misfiled, misplaced? - -Sure. "Lost" in the quantities that we read about on this site - - unacceptable.


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Aug 2004)

The computerization of the staffing and payroll functions at my civvie job actually resulted in about a 300 percent increase in the use of paper, so you are correct on that point.


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## spenco (9 Aug 2004)

I've never had any problems with CFRC Vancouver, the staff were very nice everytime I had to go do testing and every time I call for an update the people who answer the phones are very courteous (when they answer their phones    ).   The Captain who did my interview was really nice and gave me straight answers, they seem to be hard to come by sometimes.


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## clasper (9 Aug 2004)

While the term incompetent is pretty harsh, the current recruiting system certainly has lots of room for improvement from what I've read on this site.  I joined the reserves in 93, and it was a very simple process.  I walked into CFRC in mid-March, had an interview with the unit about a week later, and then went back to CFRC for one day in the last week of April.  I did the aptitude tests, medical and drug tests, and the interview all in one day, and then heard that I'd been accepted by about the 2nd week of May.  Sworn in mid-June, and on basic by the end of the month, about 3 months after I walked into the recruiting centre.  This was typical of everyone on my basic, with the exception of one buddy of mine.  He was living a transient lifestyle, and passing through Kingston.  He met a nice young lady in a local drinking establishment (who turned out to be an officer at CFRC) and decided to join up- he was on basic a week later.

If a 3 month recruiting process was typical, and it could be expedited under certain circumstances, why does it take months and months (or years) now?  From the results that people have posted, it would appear that the system is somewhat broken.


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## winchable (28 Aug 2004)

The trend I noticed growing is a lack of standardization throughout the system. For myself, I have had to deal with the inherent beauracracy on two occasions, once when I joined (Taking about 6 months, which isn't bad) and when I transferred to the navy (took roughly 1 year, and I'm still missing pieces of my files from it)
If it could work all the time, or None of the time we'd be set. If it worked all the time we'd have nothing to complain about..and if it didn't work EVER..then maybe someone would go wake up the guy in the mail room and get him to clear the jam in the file sorting machine. :

Of course this problem is as old as the day is long. Infanteer can vouch I'm certain, having read his discourses on the whole process which make perfect sense, but hey this is the military...there's no room for that kind of sensible thinkerage
Quite frankly, and perhaps a tad simply, the largest problem is the total lack of effort we put on the recruiting process. Which as I understand it, cannot be entirely a mistake, if our recruiting process was flawless then our training centers would be choked...even more so!

I'd always like to see what would happen if the rest of the military was run like a cfrc.
Parade would take hours "Yeah you have to see the guy right down there about that, and he'll give a shout up to the bloke in the office there who'll come down and review the movement before we can actually move to attention....whole process might take a half hour..but you know..just keep calling and eventually we'll get it to go through...these things do take time LS"

or perhaps...

"Actually general your travel voucher has to be stamped in triplicate by the seasick mars officer over there, his aunt and brother twice removed..then it has to be sent to our office across the country where it will be reviewed by the bloke in the office...but he's busy approving a parade movement to attention..so it may take a few weeks..months even..."


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## Tickles (29 Aug 2004)

good idea going into the reserves first and then going for officer. i know a guy who did the exact same thing.
best of luck


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## pyrotiger (29 Aug 2004)

I'm not sure how things are in Vancouver as compared to Edmonton, but here some recruiters  seem to change pretty frequently.  Thus, I wouldn't be surprised if some things were left out.  As for receiving incorrect information, I don't think its necessarily right to post the blame on the recruiting office, since there are so many details / assumptions to be made.  I've been told a lot of different things, and even on BMQ there were many things which the instructors couldn't answer.  Seems like the best thing to do is to ask as many different people as possible, and if its possible to get printed documents on minimum requirements, that would probably be the best thing to do.  Though I do offer my consolation for your predicament and wish you luck.


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## winchable (29 Aug 2004)

> good idea going into the reserves first and then going for officer. i know a guy who did the exact same thing.



You're talking to one of them,
and I am 100% sure I am not the only one.
I will make a bold statement, saying it is one of the best ways to do it.


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## Ryan_Bohm (29 Aug 2004)

I have nothing but the best to say about the staff at CFRC in London. They were very imformative and willing to sit down with you to discuss/answer question that you might have had. There was a question on my file and the case manager called my house before the day was over to clear something. Thank you CFRC London for making everything go smooth and quick.


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## JasonH (29 Aug 2004)

I've been going through Vancouver for the past 2 years (long story) while sorting out all the stuff I need to get done so I can enlist, great person to talk to is Petty Officer Gerry Milns, not sure if I got all that correct.  But he's been very helpful so far so I've just been going to him personally with everything.  But yea, I havn't had any problems so far with Vancouver RC so I hope my luck holds out  :warstory:


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## humint (29 Aug 2004)

Yes, we've all had tough times with CFRC. 

But, if you still want to be an Officer with the PPCLI, all you need to do is apply as a DEO when you have a degree in hand. 

And, it doesn't matter what degree you have, or what sort of high school credits you have, all you need is the degree. 

When you go to CFRC, make sure you speak to the RECRUITING OFFICER and not the folks out front, as they are often just there marking time until their next tasking.


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## mdh (29 Aug 2004)

Argyll Recruiting is right on this - the CFRC can sometimes be an issue but that shouldn't matter.   Be persistent and follow up, it's up to you to make your career happen, if you are determined not to take a non-response or a bureaucratic hiccup for an answer, then it's the first step in making you a better leader. 

PS Argyll_Recruiting - are you making quota?


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## Da_man (29 Aug 2004)

Yeah what a bunch of morons. They lost the RAMQ card when i did my interview.  When i called back the lady on the phone almost told me to fuck off.


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## Tracker (29 Aug 2004)

argylls_recruiting said:
			
		

> Yes, we've all had tough times with CFRC.
> 
> But, if you still want to be an Officer with the PPCLI, all you need to do is apply as a DEO when you have a degree in hand.
> 
> ...



I'll call you on this one argyll.  The ones you shouldn't talk to are the class b recruiters because the don't know s**t about the Regular Force, they are usually marking time until something better comes along.  I doubt that you'll ever talk to a Recruiting Officer at any CFRC unless they are doing your interview or the enrolling you.  If you are interested in the Reserves, talk to a Reservist, they have part time experience.  If you are interested in the Regular Force, talk to a Regular, they have full time experience.


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## beach_bum (30 Aug 2004)

Whoa!!!!!  Easy there!  In every centre, unit, base etc there are good and bad.  Doesn't matter if they are Reg F or Res F.  Just as in every recruiting centre there are good and bad.  Trying to talk to a MCC (one of the 'recruiting officers') is not always possible.  They are busy trying to conduct interviews etc.  Yes, the recruiters might not have all the answers, they could be newly posted in, or the lastest info may not have been passed on.  That's life.  Doesn't matter where you are, that is reality.  Your best move is to watch the videos, read the information, and talk to a recruiter.  Try asking them if someone at that centre is in the trade you are looking at, or at least is within that field, ie army, navy or airforce.  Yes, you may still get some wrong information, but that is your best bet.  Remember that one day.....you could be posted to a recruiting centre.


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## humint (30 Aug 2004)

My point was that, and this is typical at CFRCs, the 2Lt or OCdt at the front desk is not a "recruiting officer" per se, but rather a person who has picked up the tasking while awaiting training. 

Therefore, s/he would likely not have all the answers one may be looking for.

As stated, it is best to seek out the Recruiting Officer or Recruiting NCO, as they are properly trained in recruitment and are more familiar with the material, entry requirements, etc. 

I was suggesting a Recruiting Officer for the above mentioned pers, primarily because he was interested in becoming an officer -- that said, he might as well try to meet with the Rcrtng Offr ASAP, so that he can open communication with him/her and develop a positive relationship.


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## Jarnhamar (31 Aug 2004)

Just made a surprise visit to the recruiting center.

I called and asked about my file, i was told I'd get a call back that day. No call days later so i dropped in for a visit.

No file there.  My paper work was supposed to be sent in 4 months ago. I think thats enough time to even put it in the computer.  If it's "lost" that will be the 4th time my component transfer has been lost or thrown out.

My buddy put his transfer in 5 months ago and is in the PPCLI now, I'm going to miss the sept 15th selection bored or whatever because my stuff was misplaced and if I'm lucky, there *might* be a selection board in January (Though it may not be for my trade).
I'm going to have fun trying to get courses or class B taskings when my regiment knows im going full time. (Though i wouldn't waste courses on someone in that case either)
Awesome.

If any recruiters are reading this I respect the fact that you have a huge work load and I know you guys deal with a lot of slugs wasting your time but honestly this stuff shouldn't be happening. If *I* lost important paperwork I'm fairly confident that I would be charged.

Guys reading this who are waiting to hear back from the army, keep harassing them. Call them every little bit and check on your stuffs progress. If your near the city with the recruiting center, drop in and check things out.  Trusting the chain of command is one thing guys but you need to fend for yourself when it comes to this stuff. Don't be like me and trust that everything will go smoothly or you'll end up left out in the cold.


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## Spr.Earl (31 Aug 2004)

Don't blame the recruiter blame the system.

I have buddy of mine who works in Van. and they do try but it's the system that is the major block.
He's just waiting to be posted back to a Reg.,  he can't handle all the calls and trying to explain the whys and what for's.

Just have patience.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Sep 2004)

Your right  Spr Earl.  I'm not dumping all the blame on the recruiters though I still feel some of them are a part of them problem. As are the regiment BORs who sometimes don't do their job properly OR the soldiers who get lazy and just expect things to be done for them (ME). As you said, the whole system is the problem. Talking to some friends theres guys in holding platoons for over 6 months. Some of them have been waiting for their courses for over a year! What a waste of defense budget. Paying untrained soldiers to sit on their ass all day, for a year.

I don't have any good advice on how to improve the system but I still think it needs to really take a look at how they do things. Being able to finish a 3 year contract before you even become a qualified soldier isn't only a joke it's a complete waste of funds that are needed else where.


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## Bograt (1 Sep 2004)

I'll add my 2 cents, for what it is worth. The recruitment office that has been working my file has been and continues to be absolutely excellent. Things have happened very quickly for me from the interviews and medicals to physicals and ACS. Unfortunately I know that this is probably the exception. While I was at ACS, the candidates talk over a beer how long it took and some of the problems that they faced getting to where I was. On average it took someone 18-20 months to get to ACS. For me it took 6-8 weeks.

I "dropped" into a recruiting center in St. John's a year ago while I was doing my PPL. I met with a Airforce Captain (only airforce guy I have ever met who wore a beard) who told me that I shouldn't get my hopes up, that the CF wasn't looking for pilots (at the time they were 260 short) and that I had a lot going against me because of my age (at the time I was 30). My brother in law had to deal with this bunch of yahoos as he tried to get in as a Air weapons controller. They gave him a wrong date for interview, and later missed a board deadline because the CFRC people didn't send in his medical. He complained about the delay, and was later told that he didn't have the necessary leadership experience for a DEO. He had to be re-interviewed (this time in Halifax- because he moved to find work) and was recommended. I don't understand- people are willing to give their professional lives to serving this country yet they are treated like files. I wonder how many people have been turned off the Forces based on their experience with CFRC?

I made sure I thanked the folks in my CFRC, but unfortunately I think they are the exception. From what I understand the recruiting folks are at arms length to the regular service branches and there is little accountability. Thank God I dealt with the people I did- they are enabling me to live my dream- unfortunately other CFRC offices are would have "woke me up".

Cheers,


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## Tracker (1 Sep 2004)

I've been in Recruiting for four years years now and I've never heard of an "air weapons controller"  Remember that a story or complaint has three sides, your side, my side and the truth.  

Unfortunatly it is hard to man CFRC's with the right kind of people, some people are there because they need a break from operational units, some people are there because they have been put out to pasture and some are there because they want to be.  Some take pride in their work and some don't.  If you don't think you are being treated fairly you can ask to speak to the next level of supervisor.  If you still feel that you are not being treated properly you can contact your member of parliment who will investigate.  Record names of the people you speak with and the date and times of these conversations.  An inquiry will go nowhere without you being able to identify the people you tlked to.


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## Pieman (2 Sep 2004)

My experience with the CFRC Calgary has been very good so far. (knock on wood) One thing they have once you get you application in is a person designated as a 'File Manager'. This one person is responsible for pushing your file through the system, will set up dates, and handle any problems you may have. If you have a specific question about your application, you have to talk to this person.   Do the other recruiting centers have this system? Having a file manager makes me feel secure that it is very unlikely that my file will ever be lost or misplaced as there is only one person responsible for it.

Mind you, I say it has been 'good' in the sense that nothing crazy happened to me, like my file getting lost. I think almost everyone here would agree that the system itself is slow, inefficient, and is in dire need of a make over. 



> Don't blame the recruiter blame the system.


What is preventing changes? Is the CFRC not allowed to reorganize itself?


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## Private Jimbo (2 Sep 2004)

If any of you say that recruiting is good, just take a walk on down to Vancouver... you'll have nightmares after your visit.  The whole process in the vancouver is shit.  I personally say that we should all join cadets.. Its way easier to get in, and they give you newer clothing to start with


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## Garbageman (2 Sep 2004)

Tracker said:
			
		

> I've been in Recruiting for four years years now and I've never heard of an "air weapons controller"   Remember that a story or complaint has three sides, your side, my side and the truth.



Air Weapons Controller and Air Traffic Control Officer used to be two different MOCs, which were combined into one Aerospace Control (officer) trade.  This would have been at least 6 years ago, so please try to keep in mind that people can be referring to things that happened some time ago.


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## Bograt (2 Sep 2004)

Tracker said:
			
		

> I've been in Recruiting for four years years now and I've never heard of an "air weapons controller"   Remember that a story or complaint has three sides, your side, my side and the truth.


Directly from the recruiting website: http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/engraph/airforce/jobs_e.aspx
The primary role of an Aerospace Controller (AEC) is to contribute to air operations by providing Air Traffic Control Services and Air Weapons Control. AECs take on a multitude of operational and staff challenges that can take them across Canada and around the world. Tasks range from controlling air traffic at one of the many airbases throughout Canada or, as part of an international peacekeeping force on the ground, to controlling multinational air operations. Challenging staff and command positions are also available in high profile places in Canada, the United States and Europe. 

I understand your comment regarding three sides. I hope you now apappreciate there are cracks within some CFRC Centers. Like I originally said, my CFRC office was outstanding, but others I am aware off are less exemplary- and I am sure you will agree regardless of ones performace or experience there is always something to improve upon or learn.


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## winchable (2 Sep 2004)

> Aerospace Controller (AEC)



Thought the job description may be the same,
The names are noticeably different.


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## Bograt (2 Sep 2004)

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to Tracker for my earlier rebuttal. I am sure it is difficult to keep track of all the names and jobs within the CF- and whatever criticism I present is purely hearsay. I do know that my experience with CFRC has been and continues to be fantastic.

I have read some of the other posts presented by the starter of this thread and I am uncomfortable speaking on this topic anymore. Again my apologies and thanks for serving.

Cheers,


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## Scott (2 Sep 2004)

I call for a lock, I don't see this going anywhere. The very title of this thread is inflammatory and I think three pages is more than enough bandwith wasted especially since no new information is coming to light.


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Sep 2004)

Private Jimbo said:
			
		

> If any of you say that recruiting is good, just take a walk on down to Vancouver... you'll have nightmares after your visit.   The whole process in the vancouver is shit.   I personally say that we should all join cadets.. Its way easier to get in, and they give you newer clothing to start with



Thanks so much for the insightful comments.  Locking this up.  Have fun in Cadets.


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