# How would you rate the canadian armed forces???



## northamericanrebel (5 Nov 2003)

How would u rate the canadian armed forces to others in different countries, who would compare best with canada?       :sniper:    :akimbo:


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## Ruthless4Life (5 Nov 2003)

Depends on your point of view, and depends how a person sees the role of the Canadian Forces.


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## Gunnar (5 Nov 2003)

A civvie‘s view:

Personnel and training:  Nobody.  (England, but we improvise more successfully).

Equipment:  The Third Reich.  As of today.  ;-)  May also be compared to any other losing side of a war 55 years later...

Spending and support:  Luxembourg, Monaco

Intelligence & doctrine:  Comparable, but different from any number of countries that produce professional soldiers.  Theorizing doesn‘t cost the money they ain‘t getting!

In spite of the setbacks, some of the best troops in the world.  Training and initiative will make up for lack of spending only so long though...


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## Kitanna (5 Nov 2003)

The Canadian Forces are great. hehe ^_^


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## northamericanrebel (5 Nov 2003)

cbc posted an artical saying that you needed forces befitting of the 2nd largest country in the world =) 60,000 wont cut it


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## Coniar (5 Nov 2003)

Great training, proud history and a total lack of support from the Liberal govermont and the public. 

P.S.

Just out of curiosity why is a construction worker from Cali so interested in Canadas military and specops?


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2003)

Well your new govener probably has more money then all of the canadian army as a whole has to work with. Why don‘t you ask him to support us.


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## Coniar (5 Nov 2003)

I have a letter ready to mail as soon as he bcomes PM actually... just waiting...


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## northamericanrebel (5 Nov 2003)

to con air... i am waiting on some bull**** from the usmc so i might be going in and i might not, my whole bloddy family has been in the military for as far back as i can remember, mom,dad,brothers,sisters,grandparents....strong ties too all brances of military and to canadian forces.. love the military, love freedom, loven living in usa with such great neighbors up  north =)


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## queenslander (5 Nov 2003)

the so called white commonwealth (canada,new zealand,australia,uk) has the best soldiers in the world always under funded always being kicked in the guts by there governments but always getting the job done.


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## Coniar (5 Nov 2003)

Sounds good rebel    theres alot of "specops" gurus about these days... people who play to many video games so I was just curious...


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2003)

Freedom is a blanket pulled over your eyes!

How much freedom do you really have? Can you smoke if you want? Not if your under 18 or in a public building anymore. Can you drink what you want? Can‘t drink alcohol under 19, in public or many other places. You can‘t take whatever drugs you wish. Stores sell cigarettes for money which kills not only the primary user but non smokers through second hand smoke. Can you in turn have sex and get paid for it? No sir. Government can‘t make money off that. Can you tell someone "Your a moron shut up before i kick your @ss" No you will go to jail.  Drive a car without insurence? Not a chance. Buy a HAM radio and chat over the air? Not without a licence. Nor can you buy a gun without taking safty courses up the ying yang and then register your guns on an online data base that costs billions of dollars and is a virtual shopping list for computer smart criminals. You can‘t even buy a pack of gum without paying the government their taxes. Do you get to decide where YOUR money is spent? No again. The government controls EVERYTHING you do. As with the devils greatest trick was making man kind believe he never existed, so to is the goverments greatest trick allowing it‘s people to believe in a false sense of freedom. Is that what your fighting for? Military strikes against houses "suspected" of holding bad guys, the information comming from someone who hates his neibougher, wants his land and is now 10‘000 $$ richer paid for with your money. Your fighting for your right to keep a government in power that controls practically every aspect of your life?

Just something to think about when you sign the dotted line dude. Maybe when your on basic training and you have that blissfull few moments of silence on the can listening to the guy next to you softly snoring you can give this some thought instead of taking out your pen (that you always have in the washroom but get red chits for never having it in class) and writing grafiti on the bathroom stalls.

If you can answer yes then buy some boot polish shave your head and go protect your freedom. Make sure you have enough cash to cover the tax on the boot polish though, the army doesn‘t cover that  =)


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## northamericanrebel (6 Nov 2003)

man canada is a great place to live, never second guess that, just take a wide open bloddy look around at the putrid, ses pool, 3rd world countries that u COULD be living in....canada and the states are like club med


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## chriscalow (6 Nov 2003)

nuts to all that.  I‘m with ghost 100%.  The govenrment is so caught up in health care and what not.  Ya health care is good, but what good are the healthy people going to be if there is no army to protect them when they are in trouble?  Much less gun control, if they are going to spend their money on health, they should let people have their guns so that at least we might have a chance.  Not to belittle the army in any way.  But how long can they fight when they dont have the proper support from their government?


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## chriscalow (6 Nov 2003)

I would rate the forces at a 10 because even with the lack of support they are still finding ways to produce top notch soldiers, as for the government.. bring on voting day.


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## Armymedic (6 Nov 2003)

Hey,
those rules that impede on our freedom are so:
1. the STUPID people don‘t get themselves or worse someone else killed,

2. So the Gov‘t has some semblence of control over the population(I agree, money too).

We are still free to express most opinions,do most things and dream what we want contrary to what the Gov‘t says....


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## kurokaze (6 Nov 2003)

I agree that the stupid shouldn‘t be allowed to get other people injured or killed, but I‘m all for letting the stupid kill themselves off (darwin award nominees).  Helps to thin out the gene pool   

And I always thought that Canada stood for peace, order and good government.  Don‘t see where the freedom thing fits..    

Oh and as for troops, yes I do believe that we produce some of the best troops in the world.  Not just because of good training and leadership, but also because every single person serving today is doing it because they want to.  Their hearts are in it, and therefore will be more willing to go the extra mile to get the job done.

_P.S. I‘m a patriot.. really I am!_


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## Jarnhamar (6 Nov 2003)

I don‘t think you‘d want to be with me Qy Rang. I‘m all for manditory military service starting at 18 in one form or another, weening people off welfare, capital punishment and i‘m pro government. I was just arguing ‘for the other side‘. It‘s always a good thing to be able to see through the eyes of your opponent right? That and ferrit out anarchists   


 Without the government strong people would take from the weak. Criminals would kill innocent people like in bosnia, iraq and afghanastan without restraint. Paying taxes help pay for free health care, training doctors to take care of you, buying military equipment to protect you from harm. Creates jobs in many industries.
Kids shouldnt smoke at 10 o 15 nor should they drink because at that age they simply dont know any better and they are hurting themselves. They may not have parents who protect them. Having car insurence forces people to pay up for their own actions when they cause damage through stupidity.
The americans believe strongly in their right to bear arms. That was a rule which was made under the threat of invasion from the british, in the 1800‘s. i would like to think we‘ve came a long way from that time period. Where would you stop, automatic weapons for hunting, bombs for pest control, nukes for people control? Government needs to controlt hat stuff because people on their own simply cannot handle that type of responsibility. ****  we have parents kidnapping and drowning their own kids because they cry too much, you would trust this person with an assault rifle or car? Not I. Governments are a nessiary evil, just like PT. It hurts and its annoying at times and more often then not (in the army anyways) its forced on you but in the end it helps you out when someone tries to mess with you. A you can run faster or B you can hit harder.

The truth is subjective, don‘t you think QY?

I couldnt agree with Infanteer more though. Everyone DOES take for granted the freedoms they have. Even people who think they are enlightened and watched all those starving kids on the TV on sundays don‘t really ‘feel‘ it until they are actually exposed to it. People can be sympathetic but on different levels. Kids in the mall in canada get pissed off when their cell phone wont work indoors, kids in 3rd world countries think its a gift greater than gold when you give them an apple and a dinky little pin with a canadian flag on it.


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## Michael Dorosh (6 Nov 2003)

We‘re often compared favourably with the US Marines in terms of doctrine and equipment - as far as land battles go.  The USMC of course trains for amphibious assaults which is their specialty and has all kinds of special kit for that, which is a capability we don‘t possess.

As far as kit, Third Reich comparison may be a bit off - we are still using Vietnam issue stuff though the last bits of it have been replaced in the last 5 years or are being replaced as we speak - steel helmets, PRC-25 radios (77 set), M113 APC and ACAV kits, we still use the M35 truck though.

As for "best soldiers in the world" - Canadian soldiers have always gotten the job done, but have never been THE BEST.  In WW I we shared those honours with the Australians.   Finland produced probably the best troops in WW II.  I never saw the point in comparisons, though; all things being equal, the Germans, Americans, Russians, Brits, Canadians, etc. all produced terrific soldiers - but things weren‘t equal, and in war, they never are.

American soldiers lived through extreme hardships in WW II that Canadian soldiers never did; think of the starvation diet at Bataan in early 1942, or the cold conditions at Bastogne where winter clothing was at a premium.  Were Canadian soldiers as brave as these troops?  I think so.  Were they "better" than them?  Seems unfair to compare, doesn‘t it.

How do you compare the Japanese to the Canadians in WW II?  They lived in conditions of great hardship, inflicted corporal punishment on their subordinates and demanded harsh discipline, and fought literally to the last man.  To surrender - or even live through a defeat - was a severe dishonour.  They would put 10,000 soldiers on an island and any invasion battle there would not be concluded until the last Japanese soldier was stone cold dead.  Perhaps you would get 100 prisoners or so, many of whom were unconscious at the time of capture.  The Canadians at Dieppe packed it in with 50% casualties and 2000 of them surrendered, most with the capacity to continue fighting.  Were the cowards?  Absolutely not.  

On the whole, I prefer to live in a society where life is more sacred than that.  The question is raised - where do you stop being a soldier and start becoming a terrorist and fanatic?  Those dozen or so Al Queda dudes who flew the planes into WTC and the Pentagon were firmly convinced of what they were doing and got an extremely favourable kill ratio too.  

How do you compare Canadian soldiers to THAT?  And in this day and age, do we need to adopt the same methods in order to be able to compete?


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## henleykg (6 Nov 2003)

The Canadian armed forces are an excellent military that receives a pathetic budget and is grotuesquely ill equiped. Just like the US Marine Corps.


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Nov 2003)

Michael Dorosh: you brought up the starvation diet of the US troops at Bataan but have you forgotten our guys at Hong Kong and the ****  they went through? I think you have...


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## Danjanou (6 Nov 2003)

I don‘t think he forgot it at all. Not to in anyway take anything away from those at Hong Kong, but the two battles cannot be really compared. The battle for Hong Kong lasted from Dec 7-25, 19 days. The seige at Baatan went on for months. Both were in their own right heroic endeavours. 

The American and Fillipino soldiers endured months of starvation in addition to artillery and aerial bombardment, and assaults before finally submitting. 

The heroic if brief resistance put up by the two Canadian units is best seen in the context that they were recently arrived, for the most part untrained, under equipped, and really had no business being there in the first place aside from political expediency by the Brits who needed two extra battalions to beef up the garrsion. 

Michael you raise an excellent point with fine examples. All societies, countries, cultures are capable of and have produced excellent fighting soldiers. Sometimes that same society/country has seen fit to provide them with the material and moral support they need to do their job, sometimes (perhaps many times) not.

Sometimes they‘re victorious, sometimes they lose even if they had all the material and other support going for them. That is the sad reality of war.


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Nov 2003)

I am thinking what the guys went through afterwards as well.


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## Spartan (6 Nov 2003)

there are more examples of troops (incl Canadians) that were put through alot more misery and treachery (whether it be food, clothing, working equipment, lack of equipment etc ) do to their governments actions, or rather inactions...

my $.02 is that anyone who has fought for their country. .*and whichever idealogy the government wants to spew off* is one who deserves honour in that country.... and honour and respect overall....
whether it be through propaganda, misinfo whatev... i‘m sure that they worked their asses off *yes there are always those examples of slackers * in order to do what needed to be done in order to accomplish their objectives and goals...

all in all... when it comes down to it ....a soldier is the same all around the globe....their training and ideas may differ but the person behind that doesn‘t


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## Danjanou (6 Nov 2003)

Ex Dragoon, I know, and that‘s what I meant by not taking anything away from them.

Ed‘s right. A soldier is a soldier irregardless of the uniform he/she wears or has worn. Those of us who chose (and it was a choice even in those countries with conscription there is an option to decline to serve albeit often unpleasant)are part of a unique group.

Sometimes our political masters may have made us fight one another, but that‘s what we signed on the dotted line for.

Over the last couple of years I‘ve shared a beer or two with former soldiers from Cuba, Colombia, Morocco, Belize, Guatemala, The Dominican Republic, The US, The UK, Russia, Panama and a lot of other places. 

It was something we had in common, sometimes moreso than with our own families and friend and neighbours.


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## Michael Dorosh (6 Nov 2003)

Ex-Dragoon, aside from agreeing with Danjanou (and thanks for your views, also, Danjanou), the main point is that it is idiotic to start comparing and contrasting.

And as for the US troops at Bataan "afterwards", perhaps a google search on "Death March" will reveal that they suffered as much in Japanese hands, and quite possibly much more.  I haven‘t read of Canadians forced to bury each other alive at bayonet point, but those stories certainly have filtered out of the Bataan Death March.

The point again being that the troops in both locales were poorly treated in captivity, so why say one set suffered more or less?

As for starvation during combat, Canadians have never experienced the conditions the US Army did at Bataan during the fighting. Again, does that make Canadian troops somehow less brave or worthy of remembering?


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Nov 2003)

Sorry Mike but I took your views to be the ones that are now commonly held by most of the Canadian population that the Yanks did more and we were just there. I so often hear about how well the US did in WW2 and granted they did but when you tell people the sacrifices Canadian personnel made you get the blank look.


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## northamericanrebel (7 Nov 2003)

What is the deal, the majority of canadians just dont want to join the military? i mean 37,000,000 or so people in canada i would imagine u would want to be at LEAST 100,000 strong considering you are the 2nd largest country in the world....most canadians i talk to are liberal,leftist anti-war, and dont give a hoot about the canadian military and just say they know the states will be there to save their *** . i know you give what you can...but 60,000 is just plain unacceptable. i dont know what the fisical situation is but i know defense is priority #500000000 and the folks in parlament hill dont give a ****
  :sniper:


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## Danjanou (7 Nov 2003)

Ex Dragoon, it‘s a sad but true fact that while we do have a rich military history and tradition in this country, the majority of Canadians are ignorant of it. 

Look at the present thread here regarding the sale of poppies or past threads on the subject of military history including the teaching of it to our youth, or rather the lacl of teaching.

The average Canadian may be vaguely aware of Peace keeping, WWI and WWII but that‘s it. Try quizzing them on the French and Indian Wars, Our participation in the American Revolution ( or any Yank conflict for that matter), The War of 1812, the Riel Rebellion and the March West. The Nile Expedition etc etc. well you get the point.

The comparison thing is a bit unrealistic, mind it is something we all do. Anytime I worked with foreign military (Brits, Yanks, Germans etc) we were always eying their kit and comparing it and tactics etc.

Oh yeah Mike, you‘re welcome.


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Nov 2003)

I‘m just glad we still have a Rememberance Day.

well, if you work for some ****ing corporation who gives you the option of an extra day off at Christmas if you work on Nov 11, I guess that doesn‘t count.

Or if you work at a mall who opens the stores on 11 Nov so they can get their almighty dollar...


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## Gunnar (7 Nov 2003)

I get the day off.  I make **** certain I am up and on the road in time to make the Remembrance Day ceremonies *somewhere*....and I remind my co-workers occasionally that their "day off" is so that they can make a point of remembering our dead, not to sleep in late and catch up on Oprah.

There‘s only so much you can do without being a nag...

I don‘t mind the stores being open so much...as long as they stop at 11 for two minutes.  That really isn‘t all that much to ask...that everything everywhere stop for two lousy minutes?


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## Danjanou (7 Nov 2003)

I get the day off and I‘m sure many of my oh so progressive p/c coworkers will enjoy thee day sleeping in and watching the soaps in their underwear,or whatever. Some are bitching that they can‘t have Monday off instead.

My blazer is pressed, shoes and medals shined, etc. and I‘ll be at the Cenotaph to pay my respects. Afterwords I may hoist one or two in respect.


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## AZA-02 (7 Nov 2003)

Jean chretien must go. He is a shame for the CF.But that doesn‘t mean the CF should be treated lightly or as a weak military power, because our guys are brave, loyal, smart, and proud.    

 rating: 10/10 

 Hopefully Paul will make things better for the CF. 
  :mg:  JEAN CHRETIEN


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## nULL (7 Nov 2003)

don‘t be such an immature d*ick. 

if you think you can do a better job, go for it.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Nov 2003)

Relax the guy is just sharing his opinion. Something i think you as well have done often in the past, no?

I know i wouldn‘t do a better job then Chretien but i‘m still smart enough to see the mistakes he‘s making and how he needs to be replaced.


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## nULL (7 Nov 2003)

everyone has a right to an opinion, but someone in your line of work is particularly vulnerable to being targeted by the media. comments "suggesting" military personnel kill chretien aren‘t going to be well received by the public, i think.


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## jrhume (7 Nov 2003)

Most Vietnam veterans have a great deal of regard for their former foes.  Every American I‘ve talked to or read about who made a return to Vietnam in the last ten years or so has told of meeting ex-NVA or local force veterans and sharing a beer and sometimes tears with them.

Veterans understand one another, regardless of country.

I‘ll be at the local Veteran‘s Memorial on the 11th.  We have new dead to salute.

Jim


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## northamericanrebel (8 Nov 2003)

i agree al-x blast him what all ya got 
  :mg:   :sniper:   :cam:   :rocket:   :akimbo:  JEAN CHRETIEN


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## patrick666 (8 Nov 2003)

No one compares to the Canadian Army!

Mostly because I don‘t think another nation‘s military would wear GREEN camo in the desert.

All kidding aside, very proud of the military and it‘s history.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Nov 2003)

Ah, i missed where it was mentioned about actually killing someone Null. Saying something like that is simply stupuid.

That whole green in the desert thing is pretty funny especially after the hassel they went through to get desert uniforms.


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## patrick666 (8 Nov 2003)

Did they actually get some of the desert uniforms? or is that one of many on the To-do list of the canadian military..


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