# Mutliple shots fired, Dawson College, Montreal



## Meridian (13 Sep 2006)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html

Just coming off the wire right now...


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## FredDaHead (13 Sep 2006)

CTV's been reporting on it,

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/montreal_shooting_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories

But for some reason the videos' sound won't come on, on my computer. They probably don't have any kind of credible information, anyway: the best "source" they quoted was someone who was told by another student that they'd seen "four wounded."


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## Mike Baker (13 Sep 2006)

> There are reports that shots have been fired at a downtown Montreal college, and between two and six people have been shot.
> 
> CTV's Jed Kahane, reporting from Montreal, said only preliminary reports have been released, and police received a call about the shooting at just before 1 p.m. ET.
> 
> ...



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/montreal_shooting_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Sep 2006)

So far I have read, one male with Mohawk haircut in army fatigues and with some sort of rifle shot 2-4 people then himself. appears the victims to be targeted. 

F**king asshats ruin your own life, but don't fu*k the rest of the country by giving the anti-gun crowd a cause dejour on a silver platter.


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## FredDaHead (13 Sep 2006)

> Police have "neutralized" one suspect in a chaotic shooting scene at a college in downtown Montreal that has left three people in critical condition.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/montreal_shooting_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories

I hope "neutralized" is a euphemism for "blew his head off."


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## patrick666 (13 Sep 2006)

Hopefully the people who were shot are okay...


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## scoutfinch (13 Sep 2006)

... well, all but one atleast.


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## MPIKE (13 Sep 2006)

Reason why this is in Cdn politics?..


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## GAP (13 Sep 2006)

When the dust settles, I sure hope they find that the weapons used were registered. The last time something like this happened is what initiated the whole debacle of the gun registry and everything that it entailed.


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## patrick666 (13 Sep 2006)

4 killed, 16 injured...


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## WLSC (13 Sep 2006)

There's between 2 and 3 shooters with AK...!!!.  2 are down...for sure. The third...they dont now wet.


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## Nicholas2004 (13 Sep 2006)

RDI reports 4 killed, 16 injured


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## scoutfinch (13 Sep 2006)

http://www.cbc.ca/listen/index.html

If you go to this cbc.ca cite you can get live tv news feed.  Click on the box on the mid-top left.


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## Haggis (13 Sep 2006)

CBC's web site is reporting the same thing:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html


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## scoutfinch (13 Sep 2006)

Police news conference coming up momentarily.


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## scoutfinch (13 Sep 2006)

There is speculation that one shooter is still on the loose... two of the shooters are dead (one shot by police, the other self-inflicted).

Currently, it looks as if police preparing to move on a building with weapons drawn.  Obvious further speculation is that the third shooter is involved with current police movement.

The satellite feed from the site is down but if you can't get to a tv, the internet feed has been good thus far.


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## MPIKE (13 Sep 2006)

Let's keep speculation to a mininum..  This is still ongoing.. The facts will come out.  Police movement means nothing other than they are securing the scene.  They are following training and procedure..  Let's leave this to fold out and watch the media scramble .. unless someone has something factual to add??


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## scoutfinch (13 Sep 2006)

I should note that it is not my speculation.  I am simply relaying what is available from the scene and is being reported either by eye witnesses or police through reporters.


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## scoutfinch (13 Sep 2006)

Please see http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/50204/post-443752.html#msg443752


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## TN2IC (13 Sep 2006)

> 12 victims sent to hospital in Montreal shooting
> Updated Wed. Sep. 13 2006 3:45 PM ET
> 
> CTV.ca News Staff
> ...


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## TN2IC (13 Sep 2006)

Mods join the threds together then please.


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## career_radio-checker (13 Sep 2006)

Oh god,

Terror has struck Montreal again (re: 17 years ago 14 women killed). The news claims that 2 gunmen are dead, let's hope the only deaths in this tragedy are those of the perpetrators.


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## George Wallace (13 Sep 2006)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Mods join the threds together then please.



Done


Latest on CTV NewsNet is that there was only one shooter.    Just lets you know how confused they are there.


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## Tolstoyevsky (13 Sep 2006)

One of the vicitm said in an interview that the gunmen were Gothic teens...


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## Meridian (13 Sep 2006)

> All classes at Dawson College have been cancelled.



Brilliant news reporting there.
My manager can't get home; he lives across the street.  It's weird how surreal this is when its happening about 15 minutes from your location, but you get all your information the same as anyone at home in Romania.

A colleague actually is from Romania, and just got a phone call from Family who saw it on the news there and called to make sure she was ok.


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## Bzzliteyr (13 Sep 2006)

Watching it on news right now.. yikes!! CBC has live coverage in and out.. I almost went to Dawson but joined the Army instead!!!


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## bcbarman (13 Sep 2006)

From CTV.ca:

"A gunman wearing a black trench coat opened fire inside Montreal's Dawson College on Wednesday, injuring 13 people before police killed him."

CTV.ca News Staff 


This is early indications, but this has a strong echos of the '91 school shooting at McGill, as well as the attack on the Quebec parlement in the 80's (cannot remember the year)

early indications is that a automatic weapon was used, any word from those who live in Montreal?


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## Collin.t (13 Sep 2006)

Well it's actually refered to be close to the shooting at the polytechnique in 1989 not the one at the parliment.

One was reported to be dressed in military fatigue the other in black trench coat. http://tinyurl.com/jtu4l

some source say there were 4 gunmen, most say there were 3

One apparently commited suicide, and one was shot down by police.

The shooting took place in the school and on westmount plaza.

check google news with keywords dawson shooting


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## davidk (13 Sep 2006)

Among the various reports on Montreal radio is that one of the wounded was a Montreal policeman. Here in the city it's quite possibly more difficult to get the real story, since there are rumors flying everywhere.


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## Collin.t (13 Sep 2006)

let's the dust settle then before we speculate some more


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## Meridian (13 Sep 2006)

Montreal news states Police have mentioned that another victim was killed, but can't confirm anymore because next of kin was not available yet.

Also, they will take a while to release official stuff Id imagine, since the SQ is now taking over the investigation due to the fact that MPS shot the suspect.


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## Meridian (13 Sep 2006)

Most frustrating is that this kid/student, Michel Boyer, seems to be keenly interested in staying in the limelight over this;  he spent the entire newshour on the local CFCF CTV Montreal affiliate newscast, and is on CBC now 2 hours later....


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Sep 2006)

So I wonder if the firearms used, were all duly registered as per the Lieberal CFC boondoggle, or if the perps had their valid PAL with them. Was the ammo purchased and the info recorded as per CFC direction. I wonder if they had the proper storage facilities at home. It'll be interesting to see how kooky Wendy Cukier, and the rest of the antis, spin this.


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## Black Watch (13 Sep 2006)

2 deads: the shooter and a 20-year old girl


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## MiKeCf (13 Sep 2006)

Hope that scumbag suffered the last few seconds of his miserably life.   :mg:


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## COBRA-6 (13 Sep 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So I wonder if the firearms used, were all duly registered as per the Lieberal CFC boondoggle, or if the perps had their valid PAL with them. Was the ammo purchased and the info recorded as per CFC direction. I wonder if they had the proper storage facilities at home. It'll be interesting to see how kooky Wendy Cukier, and the rest of the antis, spin this.



I find it sad that I, as a non-resident / non-citizen, can carry a concealed handgun and have the means to defend myself in the USA (I have a Utah CCW, valid in most states), but my own government does not trust me enough to grant me the same _inherent human right to self defence _ here in Canada...


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## TCBF (13 Sep 2006)

Theory:

It's all part of a 'Progressive' plot.  The Gamil Garbi (a.k.a. Marc Lepine) incident was suposed to happen on Nov 11 so as to lesson our connection with Remembrance and Veterans while the NEW Kanada commemorates the 'more relevant' female dead students.  But, Lepine was a true crackpot and his 'progressive' handlers lost him at the end: he went early, and we lost Halifax Explosion Day instead of Nov 11.

This guy(s) handlers lost him AWOL - he did not execute his mission on 11 September as planned so as to lesson the meaning of 911.

Students are the target because they are the same age group as most of our dead soldiers, represent the countries future, and will leave their cohort with decades to influence their future decisions.  Just think of the laws and regulations we will face when Lepine's survivors and today's cohort are Judges, MPs, Mayors and Premiers in two or three decades.

Montreal is the site because it is full of people who hold an inordinate amount of political leverage and who believe that all evil can be legislated out of existance if we merely outlaw everything.

Will Afghanistan be their defining moment?  No, running down Atwater will be.

Sucks to be us.


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## MPIKE (14 Sep 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Theory:
> 
> It's all part of a 'Progressive' plot.  The Gamil Garbi (a.k.a. Marc Lepine) incident was suposed to happen on Nov 11 so as to lesson our connection with Remembrance and Veterans while the NEW Kanada commemorates the 'more relevant' female dead students.  But, Lepine was a true crackpot and his 'progressive' handlers lost him at the end: he went early, and we lost Halifax Explosion Day instead of Nov 11.
> 
> ...



Check the tinfoil hat at the door..  I'l wait for the inquiry thanks  :


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## FredDaHead (14 Sep 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> Check the tinfoil hat at the door..  I'l wait for the inquiry thanks  :



You do realize the tinfoil crowd would be bitching about this sad event being a conspiracy to take away our rights and bring us in line with evil Bushitler, not bring us more inline with the kooky leftist crowd, don't you?


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## MPIKE (14 Sep 2006)

okay not sure what i'm missing here??

Well, I'm sorry can't really see how a mere 10 hours after this event unfolded that anyone can start connecting the dots with politics, current ops, Jacko kindred spirits?  I guess I'm the one without the crystal ball at home.  The nutjob that did this act has not been identified.  His motive is unknown.  So whats next a poll attached to this thread giving options on why this guy did this horrifc act?  Until the police release the results of their investigation I just don't see a point of trying to get into this A$$'s head.  

On another note, it appears the first responding officers followed their training and the new Active Shooter measures have  merit.  I'm sure the details will come forth but we may never understand why this individual chose to do this.. thats the reality.


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## George Wallace (14 Sep 2006)

Profiles of the 'killer', Kimveer Gill, are starting to show up, such as this link  on CTV.ca:  http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060914/gill_profile_060914/20060914/



> In an online blog, Kimveer Gill includes a photo of a tombstone with his name printed on it -- below it the phrase: "Lived fast died young. Left a mangled corpse."
> 
> The blog, posted on an online hub of goth culture, paints a dark portrait of the 25-year-old man published reports have identified as the trenchcoat-wearing gunman who opened fire on students at Montreal's Dawson College Wednesday, killing one and injuring 19 others.
> 
> ...



Full article and photos at above link.


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## GAP (14 Sep 2006)

The question of the day at CFRA website

The 3 guns used by 25 year old Kimveer Gill - Montreal's Dawson College Shooter - were legally registered. What does this tell you about the effectiveness of the $1.5 billion gun registry?

http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp


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## Meridian (14 Sep 2006)

It tells me it doesn't stop a mass murderer who didn't get away.

In any event onhis profile he calls himself "Angel of Death"... which is the same title previous school shooters have given themselves...


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## George Wallace (14 Sep 2006)

I guess his 'Background Check' wasn't done too well.  (If one was even done.)


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## ark (14 Sep 2006)

http://vampirefreaks.com/gallery.php?u=fatality666

This is his blog with pictures. For obvious reasons the site is very slow and may go down any minute.


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## -Marauder- (14 Sep 2006)

I'd like to comend the police officers who, if the reports are correct, moved immediately into the college to find and neutralize the shooter.  From what I have read about leasons learned after Columbine in particular, they did exactly the right thing, as opposed to setting up a cordon and waiting for the tactical team.  

Their quick thinking and bravery is deserving of the highest praise from one group of warriors to another.


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## ark (14 Sep 2006)

Alcibiades said:
			
		

> I'd like to comend the police officers who, if the reports are correct, moved immediately into the college to find and neutralize the shooter.  From what I have read about leasons learned after Columbine in particular, they did exactly the right thing, as opposed to setting up a cordon and waiting for the tactical team.
> 
> Their quick thinking and bravery is deserving of the highest praise from one group of warriors to another.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPQlDeV3_Go

The video is not too clear but I think those are the two Police Officers in action.


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## Douke (14 Sep 2006)

There is only one gunman, Kimveer Gill, Canadian origins. The guy obviously had psychological problems, was assured he was a vampire and seemed to be way too influenced by gothic movies of the like of Blade. He had paranoiac tendencies, thinking police had been following him for several weeks.

He was carrying 3 weapons, a Beretta CX4 Storm wich is what he mainly used, a .45 pistol and a semi-automatic shotgun he had to leave outside (thank god) because of two policemen who were filling a report on a drug bust nearby. He entered the college and shot randomingly at people, killing one and injuring 19 others. The death has been identified as Anastasia De Souza, a 18 year old business student.

Thanks to the two police officers who were filling reports nearby and heard the shot, first policemen arrived on site only 3-4 minutes after the first gun shots and quickly entered the scene without waiting for reinforcements, probably remembering the Polytechnic's mistake a few years ago. They exchanged gunfire with the suspect who was hit at the leg, after being hit, the suspect drew his .45 pistol out and suicided with it. 

I was in Montreal when it happened and this is all the info I could gather. My condoleances to the family of the victim, and big get well soon for all those who were injured. It is my wish that we will look further into the causes of this incident then blaming it on a weapon, wich is merely a tool. The guy was living in his parent's house, how could they not see this coming ? How dangerous can the gothic culture be on feeble minds (I am not saying gothics are dangerous, but that this culture can have dangerous effects on weak minds). ? How the heck did he get two restricted weapons ? Were they dad's weapons that weren't properly secured, or worse, did he get a restricted liscence himself and the system failed at detecting the potential threat someone like him could cause in possession of those weapons ? All questions that would benefit form being answered in my opinion.

Ending this on a note to every O-negative blooded person in the viscinity of Montreal, Hema Québec used large quantities of the universal blood type  to treat victims of the shootout, and need to restock on it. They are currently advertising for blood donations in all large medias, so if you are of the right blood type, please go give some and save lives.

Douke


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## The Anti-Royal (14 Sep 2006)

Let the national trauma begin . . .

A sad day in Montreal, to be sure, but I can't bear to hear the word "devastated" one more time.  I am sure that we soon will see the crowds of psychiatric counselors descend to "help" all those who witnessed this tragedy, who saw it on television, who heard about it on the radio.

The scenes on the national news remind me of a story told by George McDonald Fraser, who served as a private soldier in the 9th Bn of the Border Regiment in South Asia during the Second World War.  He recounts how his section reacted to the death of their commander, Tich Little, after a firefight with the Japanese, and as a post-script, he adds:

"The pity is that the public shapes its behaviour to the media's demands . . . The damage that fashionable attitudes, reflected (and created) by television, have done to the public spirit, is incalculable.  It has been weakened to the point where it is taken for granted that anyone who has suffered loss and hardship must be in need of 'counselling' . . . One wonders how Londoners survived the Blitz without the interference of unqualified, jargon-mumbling 'counsellors' . . ."

"Certainly, a small minority need help . . . but the numbers will increase, and the scars enlarge, in proportion to society's insistence in raising spectres which would be better left alone.  Tell people they should feel something, and they'll not only feel it, they'll regard themselves as entitled and obliged to feel it."

"Fortunately, for the world, my generation didn't suffer from spiritual hypochondria - but then, we couldn't afford it.  By modern standards, I'm sure we, like the whole population who ensured the war, were ripe for counselling, but we were lucky; there were no counsellore.  I can regret, though, that there were no modern television 'journalists', transported back in time, to ask Grandarse [another member of Fraser's section]:  'How did you _feel_ when you saw Corporal Little shot dead?'  I would have liked to hear the reply."

P.S.  Well done to the MUC Police, Urgence Sante, etc., who reacted so quickly and efficiently.


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## -Marauder- (14 Sep 2006)

...of course his generation wasn't likely to be exposed to (almost constant) psychological triggers which are broadcast by the minute on television or available in videogames, the internet and other entertainment outlets.  I for one agree that there is something to what Mr. Fraser has to say but more so to the professionals and scientists who study these things.  

I personally will heed specialists like LCol Grossman and use the techniques he recommends to assist my soldiers (who are trained, unlike those kids) in overcoming any phychological hurdles they may face, rather than point out that they may be somehow made of weaker stuff than their grandfathers.

Cheers,

Mike

(Edit - Spelling, sorry.)


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## Blackhorse7 (14 Sep 2006)

This situation clearly defines why we need Active Shooter Teams _that are properly equipped_.  It may not be the case in a place like Montreal, but in most large urban centres, the ERT Teams are on call members.  They can take hours to deploy.  Properly trained and equipped ACT's are already on the road, and can respond in minutes.

*THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST TIME SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS.*

Lets properly train and equip our officers out on the road to deal with scum like this.


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## COBRA-6 (14 Sep 2006)

+1 Blackhorse,

patrol carbines in every car, and plate carriers in every trunk, with the training to go with it.


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## Yrys (14 Sep 2006)

Alcibiades said:
			
		

> I  From what I have read about leasons learned after Columbine in particular, they did exactly the right thing, as opposed to setting up a cordon and waiting for the tactical team.



From what Ive read, they modified the procedure of setting up a cordon after 
the polytechnique tragedy where 14 young women died.

I have friends in Dawson, all fine. But at school today, one of my classmates
told one of her friend that she has a friend attending Dawson that was 
beside the dead student. The friend was in shock, covered in blood.

Another schoolmate of me told me that she<s working part time in 
Montreal General Hospital as a secretary, in orthopedic. She has friends working 
in emergency...

One of my co-worker could not get hold of his girlfriend, who is a student of Dawson.
He called the police line and was told to go immediately to hospital. I can<t imagine
how he drive over there. Finally, his girlfriend was find, but was holding the hand of one 
of her friends who got a bullet in her arm.

That is enough for me. No television, no radio, I<m hearing enough of the event
has it is...

To those that lived through it, may you find peace.

Tho the woman that died, RIP.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (14 Sep 2006)

Let's not belittle the work of psychologists folks. We are still helping those who wake up screaming from their WW2 trauma in our VA clinics and in the OTSSCs. Just because they didn't name it back in the day (because of stigma mostly) doesn't mean it didn't wound their souls and psyches.


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## Blackhorse7 (14 Sep 2006)

In Hoc

+1 to that.  I don't know if I came off discrediting that line of work, that was not the intention.  People that do that keep me alive down the road.  

Off topic, I'll bring up an interesting point.  Two youths have recently been charged with a double homicide in Alberta.  They were frequent poster's to Vampirefreaks.com.  An ongoing investigation to which I cannot comment involved death threats which were again, posted on Vampirefreaks.com.  And now this.  

It's unfortunate that these incidents are all being traced back to one website, but the coincidences cannot be denied.  I would be nice to see subjects who frequent that site to police themselves, and report possible dangerous behavior to local authorities.  I cannot help but feel that if someone had called local Police and advised that there was a subject one the site posing with weapons and speaking his disdain for society, that the Montreal shootings may have been avoided.


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## Black Watch (14 Sep 2006)

24 hours later, I'm still shocked by what happened, being a former Dawson student myself..


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## TCBF (15 Sep 2006)

Courage and Skill:  The MUC Police actions.

Luck: The fact that the MUC Police were there.

Very seldom do the police get to actually stop a killing.  Not their fault - they would love to be able to, but they can only be in one place at a time.

Fact is, police exist to protect SOCIETY, individuals are responsible for their own protection.

So, have we provided enough tools for women to protect themselves?  If one woman in the area of initial contact had been allowed legal CCA, would the death toll have been less?


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## FredDaHead (15 Sep 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> So, have we provided enough tools for women to protect themselves?  If one woman in the area of initial contact had been allowed legal CCA, would the death toll have been less?



I think you got Dawson's College and Polytechnique confused there.

Do we need to protect _women_ against random shootings (yes the only death is a female, but nobody said this guy was only targeting women) or do we need to protect _the population as a whole_ against random shootings?

I don't see how doing anything more for women to protect themselves would change anything in a random shooting like this one, but we need to allow the population to have the tools at their disposal to take care of things like that. The problem is finding balance between, say, allowing people to carry concealed weapons, and not having those weapons used in crimes.

I find that treating women as poor, defenseless victims not only is an insult to women, but it's an insult to men as well. Since people started having this mindset that women must be protected at all costs (even if it infringes on freedom), men are considered evil murderous sex offenders. Heck, a woman can beat a man up and HE'll go to prison if he calls the cops!

I guess my whole point is that focusing on protecting the poor defenseless women sheep is a very, very bad decision to make. What we need is to prevent or treat antisocial behaviour, detect and take care of psychiatric cases, and have gun legislation that actually helps with preventing crime, or gun legislation that doesn't preclude legitimate use and possession of weapons just so the sheeple can feel better about themselves.


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## Meridian (15 Sep 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Very seldom do the police get to actually stop a killing.  Not their fault - they would love to be able to, but they can only be in one place at a time.
> 
> Fact is, police exist to protect SOCIETY, individuals are responsible for their own protection.




Good point.  Very good point. Ive been asking that a lot since I've heard so many witness accounts of people "hiding and laying down as he passed by" and essentially reports of being right behind the guy.   I'm still trying to understand how not one person tried to take the guy out.  I recognize a lot of psychology comes into play, but come on.  people saw him pulling out the gun out of his vehicule....  They just watched, and got on TV later and said how scared they were.


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## Blackhorse7 (15 Sep 2006)

Unless you are trained to do what needs to be done, or are one of those rare people who have the unknown genetics to step up to the plate and do something, I don't think it's fair to say "why didn't someone do something."

Fight or flight reaction.

The simple fact of evolution is that our "Fight" reaction has evolved, in a protected society to a largely "Flight" reaction.  Nothing wrong with that, nobody wants to live in constant fear that they may have to defend their lives at any given moment.  Thank God, or whomever you worship that this did not turn out worse.  

I would never encourage an unarmed, untrained civilian to take on a goal orientated criminal.  As a trained Police Officer, the motto is "one plus one".  He pulls a knife, you pull a gun.  There is one weapon, there is probably two.  One suspect, there is likely two.  

That's what we as soldiers, police officers, fire and EMT members worry about, so that the general public doesn't have to.


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## MPIKE (15 Sep 2006)

> What we need is to prevent or treat antisocial behaviour, detect and take care of psychiatric cases, and have gun legislation that actually helps with preventing crime, or gun legislation that doesn't preclude legitimate use and possession of weapons just so the sheeple can feel better about themselves.



I agree with this partly.  You had many people associated to this creep that saw the signs and blew it off.  His "web friends" on that site are responsible for looking the other way.  Cases like these don't miraculously appear one morning.  They take years to simmer and stoke up into a fury of violence.  There are persons, and I think it will come out, who knew this guy was offside early.  This guy idiolized his weapon collection, posed in pictures and referenced them in his blog.  I have no doubt he showed/bragged about them to someone.   I  don't buy the argument that nobody saw this coming.  Poor attempts at denial and alot of blinders being worn..

Concealed weapons debate?.  This may make the fellow sheepdogs feel safer but will not change the fact the a few sick people in society will one day pick up a gun and walk into a crowd of innocents.  We all aware of the dynamics of combat and throwing more guns out there are not going to minimize the body count from these cases at all.


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## George Wallace (15 Sep 2006)

Piker

Question:  How many of those types have you seen appear on this site?  What would/will you do in cases like that?  They are everywhere, and ignored by many.  How many 'nut jobs', Trolls, Posers, Wannabe's, etc. have we seen here and made fun of, or ignored, until they went away or we had to Ban?  Could someone who frequented this site have been, or could be, one of these who 'cracks' and goes 'Postal'?  How many 'Flamers' have you seen on this and other sites, get ignored and laughed at, only to go elsewhere?  Questions, and answers, that many of us discount or outright ignore.  The anonymity of the Internet gives us 'justification' at times not to act, and also protects the 'wackos' from being discovered and dealt with.  How do you report a personality on the Internet, who lives halfway around the world, to their local Police?  A lot of questions.  Few answers.  Many excuses.


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## Colin Parkinson (15 Sep 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> Concealed weapons debate?.  This may make the fellow sheepdogs feel safer but will not change the fact the a few sick people in society will one day pick up a gun and walk into a crowd of innocents.  We all aware of the dynamics of combat and throwing more guns out there are not going to minimize the body count from these cases at all.



Gee, I guess the US Justice department is wrong when they state that private citizens with guns interrupted/prevented 2 million crimes in 2005. Sorry but the more legal firearms out there being carried will affect the people that do these things, as it ruins the image of large amount of helpless victims which they crave.


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## Remius (15 Sep 2006)

This is turning into a firearms debate best served in another thread perhaps. 

I read the paper this morning and saw the picture of that young girl killed.  What a waste.

My heart goes out to the De Sousa family.  And as someone who's had (young) family on life support, my prayers go out to the families of those not yet out of the woods.


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## Black Watch (15 Sep 2006)

I do know one of the wounded persons that are in intensive care. I cannot understand how an individual could do such thing...


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## 1feral1 (15 Sep 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> This may make the fellow sheepdogs feel safer but will not change the fact the a few sick people in society will one day pick up a gun and walk into a crowd of innocents.  We all aware of the dynamics of combat and throwing more guns out there are not going to minimize the body count from these cases at all.



So what about banning booze, so there will be no more drunk drivers on the road, or what about large V8 vehicles in the hands of die hard car nuts who deliberately drag on busy roads.

At the end of the day, no laws will change anything if a person is helll bent ok going on a shooting spree or comitting a crime of signifigance.
Sadly if this rat bag who did is horrific crime had no guns, he truly would have used a knives, swords or other instruments to do his dirty work.

Wes


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## Colin Parkinson (15 Sep 2006)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> I do know one of the wounded persons that are in intensive care. I cannot understand how an individual could do such thing...



I hope they all pull through, I am glad that the Police Officers nearby reacted as they did, they saved many more lives that day.


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## MPIKE (15 Sep 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Piker
> 
> Question:  How many of those types have you seen appear on this site?  What would/will you do in cases like that?  They are everywhere, and ignored by many.  How many 'nut jobs', Trolls, Posers, Wannabe's, etc. have we seen here and made fun of, or ignored, until they went away or we had to Ban?  Could someone who frequented this site have been, or could be, one of these who 'cracks' and goes 'Postal'?  How many 'Flamers' have you seen on this and other sites, get ignored and laughed at, only to go elsewhere?  Questions, and answers, that many of us discount or outright ignore.  The anonymity of the Internet gives us 'justification' at times not to act, and also protects the 'wackos' from being discovered and dealt with.  How do you report a personality on the Internet, who lives halfway around the world, to their local Police?  A lot of questions.  Few answers.  Many excuses.



GW,
I see where you are goin and yes they are everywhere.Thankfully,  I have not witnessed a similar situation here.  However, there is a BIG difference here at this site vs vampirefreaks.(handsdown)   I do not have the luxury of seeing all the moderated content that you maybe privy too.     So I'm sure that there is a fair share of questionable people that have come through the doors here.  But due to our ethics here and high levels of moderation, (I'll plug your effort here) I think the idea of a pers from this site conducting an similar act is minimized.  This site can not  be compared to a vampirefreaks.  Your scenario could be further broken down into guest vs full member. But i'll deal with it as a full member.

I will be bold and suggest that this community is small and is strongly associated to our CF organization.  There is no or little anonimity here.  Everyone can be identified and its only a matter of resources.   I would think, as we are a more caring/social community here compared to an anti social site that every member here would respond,alert, reach out to a member in crisis.  Back to recent events.  After he was identified, I went to KG's blog and read his comments.  If you are asking what I would do in his scenario? after I saw the same type of content here I would exhaust avenues to alert or identify that member.. (But that's me.  So if you calling me out? given the evidence of that crime in our country, I'm duty bound to do so.  The writing is on the wall on what I do.)  There are people on his direct buddy list that would have clues or indicators that may of foreshadowed his demise.  Now, yes, his indicators would be camoflaged to some of  that general membership by the subculture and it's facination with violence. 

I'd argue with you the days of "denialbility" in this country have come to an end and excuses will not be as readily available.   Now compare a member vs moderator/owner??. Your liabilty as a moderator is higher than mine and you should consider what you must do? Should you find yourself in that position as you have accepted that higher position.
But surf over to that vampire site and count your lucky stars you are not a mod-god there.

How do you report a matter to the police half way around the world?  It comes down to how hard you see it through.  I think you had posted earlier of the morals of reporting stolen kit and ebay?  This is not much diiferent and comes down what is the right thing to do.  As we are mostly sheepdogs here, someone would step up.  But to answer when in doubt.  You start locally for direction and given the situation it will be scrutinize into the next investigative action.

Any legal eagles like to weigh in on denial vs liable??

Cheers,


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## MPIKE (15 Sep 2006)

Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) said:
			
		

> So what about banning booze, so there will be no more drunk drivers on the road, or what about large V8 vehicles in the hands of die hard car nuts who deliberately drag on busy roads.
> 
> At the end of the day, no laws will change anything if a person is helll bent ok going on a shooting spree or comitting a crime of signifigance.
> Sadly if this rat bag who did is horrific crime had no guns, he truly would have used a knives, swords or other instruments to do his dirty work.
> ...


Exactly my point that carrying concealed weapons would not prevent someone who is hell bent despite the suggestion made earlier in this thread.. You are right with your statement.

Colin,

I call source?..  I'd rather not turn this into a gun debate.  But the current Carry Conceal requirements work for those who qualify and are authorized.  And call me selfish but it makes it safer enviroment for LEOs..


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## TCBF (15 Sep 2006)

So, I am going to ask the question nobody wants to ask.  The police were quick to state he was born in Quebec.  Why would they think we would ask where he was born?

Because when they learned who he was, they thought we might assume that with a name such as "Kimveer Gill" , we might be asking questions not just about goths, but about multi-culti kids trapped between two or three cultures and finding belonging as a Goth Metal freak.

What does Gill's family look like?  Are they hidden from view until tempers lower?

No cousins speaking out? No friends?  No grade 3 teachers?

Enough about Goths, let's talk about Gills.


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## Koenigsegg (15 Sep 2006)

The Brother of one of the shooting victims is now lashing out against Harper for still pushing to take down the long gun registry.  
The (emo, goth, d****ebag) shooter purchased the weapons he used _legally_.  If anything, this shows how useless the registry really is, and how it helps in no way...and shows why the move to abolish it has merit.  No disrespect intended, but this brother, although I understand his anger, needs to get his head on straight.

I dont support his views for one more reason...How exactly do they expect us to get tougher?  There are far too many ways for undesirable people to get their hands on guns.  There is no way we can close those holes.  Perhaps the only thing we can do is get a lot tougher on the crime itself.

Linkage!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060914/shooting_victims_060915/20060915?hub=TopStories


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## TCBF (16 Sep 2006)

From 'The Times Of India':

"WASHINGTON: Kimveer Gill, a youth of Sikh origin, went on a shooting spree on Wednesday, killing one and injuring 19 before he was shot dead. 

Canada has a large Sikh population, including many second and third generation Sikhs descended from forbears who came to the country’s western shores almost a century ago. They are typically well-integrated into Canada’s multi-cultural society and have strong community affiliations. 

But peers described Gill as a loner who had no friends. In one of his blog entries, Gill himself says he is not a "people person". A neighbour said Gill never had visitors and would always dress in black."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1992624.cms


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## blacktriangle (16 Sep 2006)

Edited until something more concrete then CTV is out..

-Shawn


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## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2006)

Sadly, you just* KNEW *  this question was going to be asked......

 Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

*Shooter had brief military service*
TU THANH HA, INGRID PERITZ, ANDRÉ PICARD, Globe & Mail, 16 Sept 06
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060916.SHOOTGILL16/TPStory/National

The gunman who went on a rampage at Montreal's Dawson College on Wednesday, killing one woman and leading to the injury of 20 other people, was briefly a member of the Canadian Forces.

Kimveer Gill did basic training at the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in Saint-Jean, Que., from Jan. 17 to Feb. 16, 1999.

"We can confirm that the perpetrator served for a one-month period," John Knoff, a spokesman for National Defence, said last night.

He stressed, however, that Mr. Gill did not get any weapons training, nor did he do anything but rudimentary basic training, which is largely physical exercise and disciplinary training.

"He did not complete his basic training," Mr. Knoff said. The spokesman said he did not know the circumstances of Mr. Gill's premature departure.

Friends said that, even in high school, Mr. Gill spoke of joining the Armed Forces, in large part because of his fascination with guns.

Jaspal Brar, a close family friend, said Mr. Gill's family knew about his interest in guns, but regarded it as a hobby. The weapons used in the rampage were all legally registered, and signatures from close family members were required to get permits.

Mrs. Brar insisted that the killer never showed any outward signs of violence or anger, and there was no inkling of the violent, hateful outburst that culminated in Mr. Gill's suicide.

"He was a good kid -- he never fought or anything," she said in an interview. 

"I saw him grow up. He was always friendly with us. I never saw a change in him."

Mrs. Brar said the family is devastated by what has happened. "They're a normal family. Now they're looking for an answer: What went wrong?"

Mr. Gill, 25, whose nihilistic rantings and gun-worshipping photos on a blog have now been widely publicized, appears to have shielded his sordid obsessions from his parents. 

Parvinder Sandhu, his mother, told Radio-Canada television that she knew nothing about his hate-filled postings on the Web.

She said she was deeply shaken by the attacks and expressed sorrow to the families of her son's victims. She told Radio-Canada her son had shown no warning signs before his shooting rampage, although he had become perceptibly sadder in the days before the attack.

New evidence is emerging that suggests Mr. Gill had plotted his attack for a considerable time. 

The TVA network reported last night that security cameras inside the Alexis Nihon Plaza, the shopping mall across the street from Dawson College, captured Mr. Gill on videotape as far back as Aug. 10, presumably staking out the area. The report also revealed that police found a note on Mr. Gill's body that said he was targeting the junior college, but not offering any motive.

One of the most puzzling aspects of the crime is why the gunman went to the downtown Montreal school. There is no evidence he had any link to the institution. 

Another revelation yesterday was that Mr. Gill took a hostage on the sidewalk shortly after arriving at the scene. The man, a lawyer, was forced to carry a bag containing the killer's shotgun and ammunition. (Mr. Gill himself carried a .45 calibre pistol and a 9 mm semi-automatic rifle.)

The lawyer, according to a broadcast report, ducked behind a car when shooting began, and kept the bag with him. 

Mr. Gill's first shots were actually fired at two police officers who happened to be at the school investigating a minor crime. Those shots hit two passers-by, and prompted the officers to confront the killer almost immediately, which likely prevented many more deaths.

Mr. Gill proceeded into Dawson College, where he shot a number of students and staff members and engaged in a gun battle with police. He used at least two other hostages as human shields during the shooting rampage.

According to published reports, police fired only six shots, fearing that ricocheting bullets would hit students. Mr. Gill fired dozens of shots; the gunman fired his last bullet into his own head, committing suicide. 

Police later discovered more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition in the killer's car.

One young woman, 18-year-old Anastasia De Sousa, died during the rampage. The results of the autopsy conducted on the young woman, made public yesterday, showed she was shot nine times at close range. All her major organs were damaged, meaning she had no chance of survival.


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## Hunter (16 Sep 2006)

My cousin is a first-year student at Dawson. He was leaving the school as the shooter walked in.  He didn't see a weapon but he did notice him as he walked past and his intial thought was 'that guy looks pretty screwed up'.  He didn't actually hear about the shooting until sometime later.

It sounds to me like the police and emergency services did a good job in response - way to go lads.

Apparently he didn't last long in the forces.  Perhaps we have kinder, gentler recruiting and training, but at least the system, one way or another, filtered this fooknut out.


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## FredDaHead (16 Sep 2006)

Hunter said:
			
		

> Apparently he didn't last long in the forces.  Perhaps we have kinder, gentler recruiting and training, but at least the system, one way or another, filtered this fooknut out.



Yeah, but to the sheeple, this just goes to show how evil and dangerous the military is. They don't understand that if you don't make it past basic training, you don't know squat. Well, even when you do make it past basic training you still know nothing at all, but you know even less before you pass it. All they understand is "this guy was in the military at one point" added to "this guy shot a bunch of people and was a wacko" equals (in the mind of NDP traitors and other assorted cowards and hippies) "the military is full of wackos who want to kill people."


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## IN HOC SIGNO (16 Sep 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Yeah, but to the sheeple, this just goes to show how evil and dangerous the military is. They don't understand that if you don't make it past basic training, you don't know squat. Well, even when you do make it past basic training you still know nothing at all, but you know even less before you pass it. All they understand is "this guy was in the military at one point" added to "this guy shot a bunch of people and was a wacko" equals (in the mind of NDP traitors and other assorted cowards and hippies) "the military is full of wackos who want to kill people."



Well maybe but I'm thinking most folks will look at the fact that he only lasted a month and then we gave him the heave ho. Of course for the folks who listen to Taliban Jack you'll never be able to convince them anyway that we areen't all bad.


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## Blackhorse7 (16 Sep 2006)

That's a weak connection to the CF, at best.  I'm surprised the media even mentioned it.  I was still learning how not to shit my pants when my Section Leader in Basic walked past me at one month.  I think the discipline is likely what pushed him out.

Too bad, because I don't like to think about where I would have been without the CF.  A couple of "talks" behind the generator sorted me out, and put me on the right path.  Could have been the same for this guy.


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## TCBF (17 Sep 2006)

He might have been wearing his turban back then. That can be a tough way to do basic if you are young.


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## Black Watch (17 Sep 2006)

Sure thing, Québécor Média is trying to crap on the CF one more time.


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## Colin Parkinson (18 Sep 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> Exactly my point that carrying concealed weapons would not prevent someone who is hell bent despite the suggestion made earlier in this thread.. You are right with your statement.
> 
> Colin,
> 
> I call source?..  I'd rather not turn this into a gun debate.  But the current Carry Conceal requirements work for those who qualify and are authorized.  And call me selfish but it makes it safer environment for LEOs..



Look up the numbers in the US (google lott), there is enough proof that CCW has an effect on crime. Although there is CCW in Canada it is almost impossible to get. Not trying to knock all Leo's, but I took a LEO friend shooting, he told me that in one night of shooting he fired more rounds than he did in 2 years with his work. Although I have seen LEO's that are top notch shooters, I have seen lots that have terrible gunhandling skills and I know an RCMP member that is a big shooter, who complains that he can't get his fellow members interested in shooting, even with free ammo. Personally I have no problem with civilians being able to take a course and carry. I suspect that any person that would take the time and spend their money will take it as seriously as any LEO.


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## Hunter (18 Sep 2006)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> Sure thing, Québécor Média is trying to crap on the CF one more time.



I hope the truth about his military experience gets widely known.  CFRA has a small piece on their website - http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=2&nid=42799 - apparently he started crying when the barber cut his hair, and somehow managed to set his curtains on fire when burning threads off his uniform.

It seems to me that if he only lasted a month, then he must have made a pretty bad impression right from day 1.


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## Colin Parkinson (18 Sep 2006)

Yes, but in the anti's eyes, a month as a military recruit, means he is a hardened, highly trained killer and bushbot.  :


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## bcbarman (18 Sep 2006)

I was going to ask if there was anyone at CFLRS on the site that was there in those times (instructor types) but to remember one washout 7 years ago is a bit of a stretch, heck, there has been a few times when a troop has walked up to me in the legion on remembrance day and asked how I was doing, could not remember teaching him.

Still sad.  Can understand how he got in, its hard to do a real background check on a 19 year old that does not raise any flags in the interview. Perhaps we should ask for sites that they frequent during interviews, that would show us where to find the red flags.  

Heart goes out to those affected, I have no suggestions on how to quell or stop this from happening again.


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## gate_guard (19 Sep 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Not trying to knock all Leo's, but I took a LEO friend shooting, he told me that in one night of shooting he fired more rounds than he did in 2 years with his work. Although I have seen LEO's that are top notch shooters, I have seen lots that have terrible gunhandling skills and I know an RCMP member that is a big shooter, who complains that he can't get his fellow members interested in shooting, even with free ammo.



I've noticed this issue since being hired on. We shoot thousands of rounds during our intitial firearms training, but many officers seem to treat firearms handling/shooting as an after thought once hitting the road. At my department, we go through mandatory yearly qualification (the qual is shot "cold" and if failed, you can't shoot it again until the next day) and are encouraged to go to the range. Although it can be tough to hit the range on a work day too many officers aren't willing to go on days off. It boggles my mind cause shooting is the one thing in this job that you may never have to use, but if the day comes, you'd better be prepared.

But back to the issue at hand, my sympathies to all involved.


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## Black Watch (19 Sep 2006)

I wnet to Anastasia De Sousa's funeral as a CSU representative. Quite moving indeed. RIP Anastasia, may God watch on you.


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## Meridian (20 Sep 2006)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> I ..... as a CSU representative.....




Oh no! While I commend my student union (I'm a part-timer at Concordia) for jumping in and helping out the Dawson students who definitely needed assistance right away;  I'm not too impressed with you guys for immediately resuming your we-hate-the-administration stance as fast as possible to gain some publicity. (Ranting that Dawson's Administration had not reacted quick enough.)  

Whats your position at CSU?


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## Black Watch (20 Sep 2006)

I'm not Dawson union, but Concordia. Im a undergraduate representant for the Riligion student's association.


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## TCBF (21 Sep 2006)

"That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight mis-spelling the word religion..."

- With apologies to REM.


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## Michael OLeary (5 Sep 2008)

*Ban semi-automatic weapons used in Dawson College attack: coroner*

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2008/09/04/mtl-coronerdawson0904.html



> Ban semi-automatic weapons used in Dawson College attack: coroner
> Dawson College shooter was ready to kill his parents to protect his plan
> 
> Last Updated: Thursday, September 4, 2008 | 5:36 PM ET
> ...




Let the anti-anti-gun lobby rants commence anew.


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## Thompson_JM (5 Sep 2008)

Im waiting for it to happen.... as long as the Conservatives are in power I think the Gun owners should be safe... hopefully....

but I can see the next Lib Majority whenever that happens again, will probabbly enact some sort of massive anti-gun legislation, and that will prove to be an interesting time in canada... when the legal gun owners finally loose the battle.... Im not looking forward to that day...

I hope it never comes... but too many in this country, in the major ridings (SW Ont, and Moronto, as well as the rest of the large urban centers) are so Anti-Gun its insane... there is little hope i think, of convincing them otherwise...

to them its simple... Ban Guns = No more gun Crime....

I cant wait to see what their reaction will be when violent crime shoots through the roof afterwards....


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## medaid (5 Sep 2008)

I have recently conducted a study as well that says most all uninformed people are well educated. As a result I move to ban all uninformed individuals from attending post-secondary institutions because they obviously aren't learning anything. I also concluded that those who like to talk about things that they have ZERO clue on i.e. A Coroner who says that the Storm should be banned based on it's light weight construction, high manuverabiliy and high accuracy has obviously never seen a person with a lever action.22 do the same type of damage. I think the Coroner should stick to what they know best, dead people. Leave the judgement and public statements about firearms to those that know what they're talking about. Another words.. Well you get the point


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## 1feral1 (5 Sep 2008)

Yes, and we can take all the cars away so no drunk drivers will kill anyone, that way the only people with cars will be the Police, other Emerg Svc's, Defence, and of course the criminals.

Some people's logic really irritates me sometimes.

Love each other,

OWDU


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

Indeed.  I might point out that you overlooked knives.  After the recent beheading, they have now been promoted to the top of that long list.


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## medaid (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Indeed.  I might point out that you overlooked knives.  After the recent beheading, they have now been promoted to the top of that long list.



Redongkulous... why haven't they banned cellphones or pagers yet? They're the electronic transmitter for remote bombings and IEDs... mind as well start before someone does it!


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

Whoa!  Next thing we'll see is Government Legislation that the whole population will have to wear Tinfoil Hats or hats lined with tinfoil.


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## JackD (6 Sep 2008)

Careful - you might get a cut from a jagged corner of that tin-foil - not to mention the box edge of the dispenser... toilet paper hats maybe - biodigradable of course, made from organically grown non-tropical trees sprinkled with non-acid rainwater....


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## Thompson_JM (6 Sep 2008)

Things Banned in the year 2010 in the City of Moronto, by Dave Miller and his merry band:


-all Firearms... especially if they are black and plastic and scary looking....
Firearms include anything that can go bang... (oh you needed that .223 bolt action to keep varmits off your farm? nah thats a sniper rifle.. it has a scope on it... i saw it in a movie so it must be true....)

- Knives, machetes, and really pointy keys...

- Sporks, forks, toothpicks, pointy sticks, and all pencils and ballpoint pens longer then 2 inches (could be used as a weapon after all...)

- Any scissors that could not be handled safely by a drunken preschooler

- Cars... bad for the environment and sometimes people drive drunk.

- cell phones... you can get distracted and walk into someone possibly bruising them!

- any jagged rough or sharp surface... all structured must be rounded and lined with foam rubber padding.

- all typed of hard surfaces like concrete asphalt or brick must be replaced with sponges... this works to help keep water off the ground after the rain, and when drunken homeless folk fall down they get a free sponge bath. thus keeping the city extra clean.

- all residents must wear clothing made entirely of terry cloth to ensure no one gets rubbed the wrong way.

............

yeah i think im done here...... seriously.....  im with wes..... ban all guns cause a nutter shot someone is exactly like banning cars because people drive drunk.... it really doesnt fix it....

argh...


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