# Regular physical fitness testing?



## theoldyoungguy (13 Nov 2005)

In todays canadian forces the number is close to 40% of soldiers are overweight. Ive talked to plenty of soldiers who have done tours in afghanistan and bosnia and most agree there should be regular physical fitness standards to be met for all trades. From my understanding canadian soldiers are mocked overseas when in company of french, brits, belgians, dutch etc, due to the high number of overweight and out of shape canadian soldiers. Obviously there are some trades that need to be more fit than others, but doesnt it make sense that all trades have to be equally fit and have an equal standard to be met? after all i hear all the time from truckers, tankers, cooks, supply techs etc, that there not in the infantry because its a job anyone can do. I bring this up because infantry generally are the most fit trade, not to put down any other trades, as there are many a overweight NCOs and officers in the infantry and many fit strong soldiers in the service trades.

To sum up Canadian Soldiers are becoming more of the picked on group due to our level of physical fitness, should we instill regular fitness standards?


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## Kat Stevens (13 Nov 2005)

Right on!  Testify, brother!  It's about time we had a thread on here on this very topic.  Thanks for bringing this largely ignored topic into the light.


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## old fart (13 Nov 2005)

loyaleddie87 said:
			
		

> In todays canadian forces the number is close to 40% of soldiers are overweight.



Before we go on will you indicate the source where you obtained this figure from.

Chimo-Airborne-Ubique


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## Armymedic (13 Nov 2005)

loyaleddie87 said:
			
		

> In todays canadian forces the number is close to 40% of soldiers are overweight. Ive talked to plenty of soldiers who have done tours in afghanistan and bosnia and most agree there should be regular physical fitness standards to be met for all trades.
> 
> To sum up Canadian Soldiers are becoming more of the picked on group due to our level of physical fitness, should we instill regular fitness standards?



There is, you are required to do yearly fitness testing, whether it be the BFT or express test.



			
				old fart said:
			
		

> Before we go on will you indicate the source where you obtained this figure from.



Yes, and with those numbers, the definition of overweight.


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## a_himself (13 Nov 2005)

It would have to be a pretty low standard.  I know at my unit at least if they required something like all members to complete the BFT we'd probably lose half our people.  It's a sad fact but true.  It's hard to enforce a high phsyical standard in the reserves and right now the government wants to grow it even more.  There's no easy solution, what are they going to do, kick out all the out of shape guys who can't run?


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## theoldyoungguy (13 Nov 2005)

a_himself said:
			
		

> It would have to be a pretty low standard.   I know at my unit at least if they required something like all members to complete the BFT we'd probably lose half our people.   It's a sad fact but true.   It's hard to enforce a high phsyical standard in the reserves and right now the government wants to grow it even more.   There's no easy solution, what are they going to do, kick out all the out of shape guys who can't run?



you dont kick them out, you give them a certain period of time to accomplish the fitness standard. If not attained, then you do remedial training on parade nights(reserves) and more PT during the week (regs). For those just entering the CF, make it so they will need to attain that standard, and make it a BMQ,SQ and DP1 course requirement to pass the CF fitness test.

And the number of 40% i got was about a year ago on my BMQ. On one of our instructional classes in first aid we discussed giving first aid like CPR to overweight individuals, at that time the medic proceded to tell us about 40% of the CF was overweight. Really though, I personally belive it, take a step onto any miitary base and you can see alot of large set soldiers.


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## a_himself (13 Nov 2005)

Well but that is going to be a huge step requiring big reform but then it moves into the whole area of uncommited people being in the reserves.  A lot of guys are going to quit before they start doing PT 5 times a week on their own time right.  But this moves into the whole approach in recruiting people into the reserves.  It's an issue that isn't going to get fixed anytime soon since they're still going for numbers rather than quality.


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## George Wallace (13 Nov 2005)

a_himself said:
			
		

> It would have to be a pretty low standard.   I know at my unit at least if they required something like all members to complete the BFT we'd probably lose half our people.   It's a sad fact but true.   It's hard to enforce a high phsyical standard in the reserves and right now the government wants to grow it even more.   There's no easy solution, what are they going to do, kick out all the out of shape guys who can't run?


You make your Reserve Unit sound like a Social Club.


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## a_himself (13 Nov 2005)

All I said is that there are a lot of people in poor physical condition in my unit and thats the truth.   And I'd be willing to bet it's a very similar situation across the board.  There are lots of guys at my unit who come out on most exes and work hard but are in poor shape when it comes to going for a run or a long ruck march.   Saying that there is a poor level of fitness at my unit translates into a "social club" ?   I don't grasp the logic there.


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## theoldyoungguy (13 Nov 2005)

The logic behind quantity over quality i think is seriously flawed. Take a look at the falklands war, the british were outnumbered 3 to 1 and still won the war while using the same equipment and weapons on eachother.

Id rather have 15 guys on a fighting patrol with me who can keep up and move without rests every 5 mins than 30 guys who have to rest every 5 mins and cant haul anything over 20 lbs on there back before they keel over of a heart attack. But with that said i do belive the main area of the military that needs work is the non combat arms types. Nothing personal by any means against any of the non combat arms, theres ALOT of exceptions. But im just tired of hearing how a soldiers occupation doesnt require them to be in top physical shape. It comes back to that whole idea of soldier before trade, i dont care if your hardcore PPCLI or a slower supply tech, if the sh*t ever hits the fan that supply tech should be able to challenge that PPCLI soldier's physical capability. Fact is were all soldiers first, and were not the american army, we proclaim internationally how well our soldiers are trained. Unless we walk the talk, we will not be a respected nation. Every trade in the military has its role, most of the time, the infantry are gonna be humping the rucks, and the trucker will be driving his truck, but if things get seriously messed up the infanteer has to know how to drive, and the trucker has to know how to fight, and ur ability to fight is seriously hampered if u cant haul a$$ with the best of them.


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## Haggis (13 Nov 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Right on!   Testify, brother!   It's about time we had a thread on here on this very topic.   Thanks for bringing this largely ignored topic into the light.



Yep.

Even though this is one of my favourite topics, are we really gonna do this again??? :


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## aesop081 (13 Nov 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Yep.
> 
> Even though this is one of my favourite topics, are we really gonna do this again??? :



Its a cycle...kinda like JTF threads, CFAT complaint, trigger-happy mod complaints........


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## Haggis (13 Nov 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Its a cycle...kinda like JTF threads, CFAT complaint, trigger-happy mod complaints........



OK.. let's try this:

All applicants for the CF should be fitness tested at The Hill.   Those not meeting the standard should be sequestered at the Edmonton Garrison (Valcatraz for English applicants).   There they will be given remedial PT for a period of ninety consecutive days before being re-tested while undergiong complete second-language immersions.   They will then be shipped to The Hill to do a second fitness test administered in their "new" second language.   If they pass, we send them on to St. Jean.

Those who fail will, again, be sequestered, (French applicants will go to Gagetown) for a period of no less than six months where, during thier off hours, they can work on kit and quarters and complete memorization of QR&O Volume 2.   

That should cut down on the number of new threads on:

-fitness;
-dress and deportment;
-second langauge training;
-poor standards; and
-military law.

(Geez I hope the CDS is reading this.....)


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## kincanucks (13 Nov 2005)

_That should cut down on the number of new threads on:

-fitness;
-dress and deportment;
-second langauge training;
-poor standards; and
-military law._

We can only hope.


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## Armymedic (13 Nov 2005)

I'd rather see threads on those 5 topics vs:

JTF2,
Next deployment to Afghanistan rumours, and
Reg vs Res threads.

or see here and add your questions there:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36260/post-294746.html#msg294746


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## GO!!! (13 Nov 2005)

> i dont care if you are a hardcore PPCLI...



A What? Where? 

(ducks under desk and silences whimpers with a boston creme)

I hope he does'nt hurt me - being all hard and all... :crybaby:


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## UberCree (14 Nov 2005)

If I was the government I would say the following to the CF.

"Until you can get the forces in shape, you will receive no new funding."

Fitness takes no money, yet we are pathetically unfit.  All it takes is leadership.


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## midgetcop (14 Nov 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Yes, and with those numbers, the definition of overweight.



Exactly. What method is being used to determine "overweight"? By whose standards? If we're talking an extra 40-50 lbs then of course that's fairly obvious, but I doubt if 40% of our members are *obese*. 

Besides, weight isn't always a good indicator of physical fitness or ability.


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## GO!!! (14 Nov 2005)

UberCree said:
			
		

> If I was the government I would say the following to the CF.
> 
> "Until you can get the forces in shape, you will receive no new funding."
> 
> Fitness takes no money, yet we are pathetically unfit.   All it takes is leadership.



Brilliant.

Suspend current operations, freeze the aquisition of desperately needed air and sealift so that the troops who are the least responsible can be forced through PT 3 times a day.

If you wanted results, you would suspend the promotion of anyone above the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, unitil the average coopers test score of everyone under their command hit a certain level.

Combine leadership with careership, then you will see results.


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## Infanteer (14 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> If you wanted results, you would suspend the promotion of anyone above the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, unitil the average coopers test score of everyone under their command hit a certain level.



Why not?  It is a leaders job to ensure that his soldiers are ready for combat, so I guess physical fitness would be implicit on that one.  If a unit is FUBARed or has low morale and disciplanary problems, you'll see (or you should) the commander relieved if he doesn't take proactive steps to improve things - why should fitness be any different?  This way, a leader gets his guys going or cashiers them if they're lost causes.

I think you found the answer here GO!!!.


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## PJ D-Dog (14 Nov 2005)

I agree with Infanteer, Ubercree and Go.

I remember back in 1989 when I joined the CF, there was something called BMI (body mass index) and if you didn't fall within BMI standards, you could not get promoted etc...although I cannot remember the reference, I did hear a story about how the use of BMI was thrown out of the CF...something to do with a human rights complaint and discrimination based on being fat.

In the 1999, I was a participant in a People Soft working group in Ottawa, helping to map one of our legacy systems to a new database system called People Soft.  One of the Captains in the working group was from the air force side and he weighed in at a dainty 300 pounds.  It was rumoured they had to use the curtains in the air force mess in Ottawa in order to make him a new set of DEUs.  He wobbled as opposed to walk but he could do the 200 meter dash for any product from Tim Hortons, mostly a boston cream.

On Remembrance Day this year (last Friday), I had the priviledge to attend the Canadian Embassy's ceremony here in Washington DC.  All CF personnel assigned to the DC region had to attend unles on TD or leave.  Most the CF personnel in attendance were air force, with some sprinkling of army and a token sailor or two.  My first observation was that most of the CF members were obviously over weight.  Now, how did I come to that conclusion, how about the large bulge protruding out of their mid-section forcing the jacket of their uniform outward.  I said nothing as it wasn't my place too but I've had other Marines who have met CF members in the DC region comment on the same thing.

Of course the cure for every military ailment is found within the Marine Corps and thus here is the cure for the CF physical fitness problem:  use the Marine Corps PFT.

The Marines have one standard across the board no matter what the MOS.  Twice a year everyone has to perform the physical fitness test (PFT).  I consists of a three mile run, pull-ups for males and flex-arm hang for females, and crunches.  The combined score of all three events make up a final score out of a maximum of 300.  PFT socres are used in conjunction with promotion points for junior enlisted and are reflected on fitness reports for all other Marines.  Heaven forbid that you should fail a PFT...it usually signals the begining of the end.  Also, the entire chain of command for that one Marine is held responsible...bad, bad joo joo.  The down side to all of this is that some Marines use only the PFT score as a deciding factor on whether or not the Marine is good to go...

My two cents worth....

PJ D-Dog


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## Haggis (14 Nov 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> Of course the cure for every military ailment is found within the Marine Corps and thus here is the cure for the CF physical fitness problem:   use the Marine Corps PFT.





			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> If you wanted results, you would suspend the promotion of anyone above the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, unitil the average coopers test score of everyone under their command hit a certain level.



Why is there such a rush to re-invent the wheel?

Taken a look at CFAO 50-1 or LFCO 24-2 lately?  Both contain details on tests to be conducted and the consequences of failure.  

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  Until we apply and enforce the existing standards, there's little sense in creating a new, even more unacheivable, standard.  This will only take time and money away from other training activities.

There's nothing wrong with the EXPRES Test or BFT providing that everybody (and I mean *EVERYBODY*!!) is tested (including 300 pound Blue Boxes) yearly and sees the consequences of failure in a tangible and, where warranted, career altering way.


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## UberCree (14 Nov 2005)

My point axactly.  It is obvious we are lacking somehwere if we cannot enforce the regulations now in place.


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## Bert (14 Nov 2005)

Theres alot of exaggerated statements about the CF.   Why compare the entire CF, land,
sea , and air, with the US Marines? Why not the US Army with the CF, or the USAF with
the Air command, or the IDF with the maritime command?   Its like (thanks Paracowboy,
this word is still leaking into my everyday) comparing apples and oranges.   The difference
in my opinion is the daily training and tempo afforded to each of these units. 

In reference to Infanteer's and Haggis's posts, the development and improvement of
fitness (and indirectly BMI) is significantly affected by leadership and standardization. 

Unless the member is categorized or in remedial training, everyone has to pass the CF Express test
(or BFT).  The larger CF members observed by PJ D-Dog in DC likely passed the CF Express test.   
They meet the standard.   Passing the CF Express test is a standard as Haggis implies in the 
CFAOs but it is not a method to fitness.

In order to achieve CF Express exemption or beyond the pass threshold, takes more effort and 
this is where I think the CF as a whole looses it.   Different units maintain different PT requirements.
Some units have mandatory PT five times a week for two hour sessions, others have three
periods for an hour a session, others utilize collective unit training occasionally, others have one
session a week and allocate time for members on their own work-day schedule.   The more
deployable or the higher the readiness of the unit, the more PT and collective training the
unit gets.

However, though members can perform PT on their own time after work, my point is the provision
of PT is not standard across the units.   Without standardizing PT sessions and durations, there will
be more variance in the fitness/BMI statistics.


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## Infanteer (14 Nov 2005)

Hey, the Marines have an Air Arm and they work on boats - fair comparison.


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## buzgo (14 Nov 2005)

Bert said:
			
		

> Theres alot of exaggerated statements about the CF.   Why compare the entire CF, land,
> sea , and air, with the US Marines? Why not the US Army with the CF, or the USAF with
> the Air command, or the IDF with the maritime command?   Its like (thanks Paracowboy,
> this word is still leaking into my everyday) comparing apples and oranges.   The difference
> ...



People are always going to use the 'operational tempo' argument to get out of doing PT. It always seems to be the first thing to go out the window. However, there is NO excuse for people to not do PT on their own time. 

I don't believe that morbidly obese people are passing the EXPRES test either. I have seen them pass the BFT (and they were laid up for 2 weeks after) but I honestly don't think they can do the 20 msr. 

In the end, it all comes down to leadership (as KevinB stated) until the leadership of all of our units is willing to pursue these people and persecute them (I don't think people deserve much slack at this point) and get rid of them.  People are afraid to rock the boat and enforce the standards.


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## Britney Spears (14 Nov 2005)

> Hey, the Marines have an Air Arm and they work on boats - fair comparison. Smiley



I've always wondered how people in the Marine Air Wing explained their jobs to civvies. "So, you're saying you work for the Navy's Army's Air force? Isn't that a little redundant?"


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## FITSUMO (14 Nov 2005)

"People are always going to use the 'operational tempo' argument to *get out of doing PT*"

ummm sorry, come again.   Being as I am about to start a career in Jan or Feb, I am confussed with the above statement, Why would anyone in the CF want to get out of doing PT, to be truthful here, that is one of the biggest draws, you get fitter while serving.

Am I really this naive, I was told by my recruiter that once in,   you have to pass a PT test every year and I believed him. ??? (please note sarcasm, as I am laying it on)


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## PJ D-Dog (14 Nov 2005)

I may be dating myself or quoting older information.   When I was in class B in Gagetown, the base came out with a policy concerning PT on your own time.   My impression at the time was that it only applied to reservists on Class B for life.   It basically stated that if you got hurt conducting non-sanctioned individual PT you would not be covered by medical.   Basically, PT on your own at your own risk.   It went on to say how we had to PT three times a week for a minimum of an hour.

I know things have probably changed but this is just to illustrate the type of attitude that has been prevalent in the CF over the years.   I agree there is a reluctance to enforce the regulations that are currently present but that stems from weak leadership on the part of the higher command structure.

I'm confident that the CF personnel in DC did pass the riquired express test but the military appearance portion does not fit into the equation.   In the Marines, in order to be selected for promotion (staff NCO on up) you must submit a current picture of yourself in uniform in order to ensure you meet the military appearance regulations.   In other words, you can't look like a fat body even if you pass the PFT and are within the hight/weight standards.   Those who are over weight are assigned to a special remedial PT program and placed on a type of probation.   These are all things that the Canadian human rights commission would have a field day with.   Again, my two cents...

PJ D-Dog


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## PJ D-Dog (14 Nov 2005)

FITSUMO said:
			
		

> "People are always going to use the 'operational tempo' argument to get out of doing PT"
> ummm sorry, come again.   Being as I am about to start a career in Jan or Feb, I am confussed with the above statement, Why would anyone in the CF want to get out of doing PT, to be truthful here, that is one of the biggest draws, you get fitter while serving.
> 
> Am I really this naive, I was told by my recruiter that once in,   you have to pass a PT test every year and I believed him. ??? (please note sarcasm, as I am laying it on)



Sorry to bust your bubble but, yes you are a bit naive.   Many CF members become complacent in their career and view it as just another job.   This is not everyone, but many of them.   My adivce to you is to remain motivated and stay in shape once you rotate from training to a unit.   Others will see this and want to be as motivated as you are.   Change can only take place one soldier at a time.   Good luck.

PJ D-Dog


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## Haggis (14 Nov 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> I may be dating myself or quoting older information.   When I was in class B in Gagetown, the base came out with a policy concerning PT on your own time.   My impression at the time was that it only applied to reservists on Class B for life.   It basically stated that if you got hurt conducting non-sanctioned individual PT you would not be covered by medical.   Basically, PT on your own at your own risk.   It went on to say how we had to PT three times a week for a minimum of an hour.



Don't know how long ago this was but times have indeed changed.

Part of the CF EXPRES program is to complete the CF 279 form (whether you pass or not).  On this form you tick off the activites you will be participating in as part of your *EX*ercise *PRES*cription, as well as the frequency for each activity.  If you complete the BFT instead, you should always report to your local CFPSA office and fill out a CF279 to be placed on your file. This is what determines the difference between sanctioned and non sanctioned individual PT for pension purposes.

I work at NDHQ in a brand new building with a super little gym.  There are over 100 CF members there and less than 2 dozen use this facility on a regular basis (mostly from my Directorate). I work in one of the busiest Directorates in the NCR and both me and my MCpl make it to the gym a minimum of one hour per day, every weekday during working hours.  (and PJ D-Dog, I know that Air Force Officer)

Regarding OP Tempo as an excuse, If you're on ops, then finding time for PT isn't much of a problem.  Every day is a workout.  If you're not deployed, there's always time for PT.

Get over it and do it.  Don't tell me about excuses.  I've heard 'em all!


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## Daidalous (14 Nov 2005)

Unit PT is the best,  you push your self more in front of your friends and peers than you would alone.   What gets my goat is when only Mcpl and below show up.


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## GO!!! (14 Nov 2005)

Has anyone else seen the AF officer in Trenton that sits on two chairs? (I'll give you a hint - he's not using the second one for his feet!)

I think he's a Col. How could he try to enforce a PT regime?


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> I may be dating myself or quoting older information.   When I was in class B in Gagetown, the base came out with a policy concerning PT on your own time.   My impression at the time was that it only applied to reservists on Class B for life.   It basically stated that if you got hurt conducting non-sanctioned individual PT you would not be covered by medical.   Basically, PT on your own at your own risk.    It went on to say how we had to PT three times a week for a minimum of an hour.......
> 
> PJ D-Dog



You know, you are passing yourself off here as an ignorant Militia Wog, by making statements like this.   This is only half of the story, and you left out the most critical part of it.   So get it right if you want to pass on criticism or advice.   What you said is true, but you left out the fact that people who wanted to partake in PT after hours or on their own time were to simply fill in what activities that they were interested in doing on a CF Express Form at their OR or Gym and they would be covered.


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## Daidalous (14 Nov 2005)

I thought   that Col got posted out.


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## buzgo (15 Nov 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You know, you are passing yourself off here as an ignorant Militia Wog, by making statements like this.   This is only half of the story, and you left out the most critical part of it.   So get it right if you want to pass on criticism or advice.   What you said is true, but you left out the fact that people who wanted to partake in PT after hours or on their own time were to simply fill in what activities that they were interested in doing on a CF Express Form at their OR or Gym and they would be covered.



I think that there are things that you would never be alble to get listed though. For example, I whitewater kayak, ice climb and compete in adventure races. If I get wrecked doing any of these activities, I'm pretty sure that I will be screwed. I would even hazard a guess that if my chain of command wanted to ORDER me NOT to do these things, they could and I would little to say about it...


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## George Wallace (15 Nov 2005)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> I think that there are things that you would never be alble to get listed though. For example, I whitewater kayak, ice climb and compete in adventure races. If I get wrecked doing any of these activities, I'm pretty sure that I will be screwed. I would even hazard a guess that if my chain of command wanted to ORDER me NOT to do these things, they could and I would little to say about it...


Not true.  As long as it was listed by you on you form, you are supposed to be covered by it.  There are people who are Marathon Runners, Triathaletes, etc. who enter things like Ironman competitions and marathons on Civie Street, and that is one of the reasons this policy came into effect.


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## buzgo (15 Nov 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not true.   As long as it was listed by you on you form, you are supposed to be covered by it.   There are people who are Marathon Runners, Triathaletes, etc. who enter things like Ironman competitions and marathons on Civie Street, and that is one of the reasons this policy came into effect.



I spoke with the PSP people today, and they said that you no longer list things on your EXPRES form. They recommended just to do what you want for fitness/sports/pt and if you get hurt you have to justify it with VA (and CFPSA who reviews those cases). 

Also, your examples of triatheletes and marathoners is not sooo great. These are all CF sports so are automatically recognized.


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## PJ D-Dog (15 Nov 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You know, you are passing yourself off here as an ignorant Militia Wog, by making statements like this.   This is only half of the story, and you left out the most critical part of it.   So get it right if you want to pass on criticism or advice.   What you said is true, but you left out the fact that people who wanted to partake in PT after hours or on their own time were to simply fill in what activities that they were interested in doing on a CF Express Form at their OR or Gym and they would be covered.



First off, I resent being called a Militia Wog as your weak veilled attempt at lining it out does not detract or reduce the effect of being referred too as such.  I don't attack you personally due to your choice of branch of service (regular or reserve).  It is just this type of attitude that promotes a negative working relationship between the reserve and regular force.  I have known my fair share of Militia Wogs and I, Sir, am not one of them.  I have also known Regular Force Wogs as well....are you one of those?

I was not aware of the second part that you referred too in your correction statement.  This information was not passed on to me by my chain of command at that time.  Incidently, my chain of command at the time was made up of Regular Force soldiers (some of whom I would categorize as Reg Force Wogs).  In the branch where I worked, we did not do the express test.  We were required to the 13K ruck march.  The CO at time wanted it done this way and that's what we did.  We were never informed of the existence of the CF express form or even how to go about getting the CO's permission to do whatever PT exercises after hours.  As a result, I posted the most accurate information that I had relative to the situation that I was in at the time.  If that information is incorrect, then I will be more than happy to stand corrected but without being referred to as a Militia Wog.

As a member of the Militia, I strived only to be best that I could be.  Anyone you speak too who served with me in the Militia will tell you straight off that I was no where near being a Wog of any sort.  After 11 years of being treated like garbage by people with the same negative attitude that you displayed, and being under paid, I opted to join the Marines.  I know of only two other so called Militia Wogs who did the same, and one of them joined because of my wog-like efforts at getting him in.

PJ D-Dog.


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## Popurhedoff (15 Nov 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> Many CF members become complacent in their career and view it as just another job.  This is not everyone, but many of them.


I find this especially true in the AirForce.




			
				Daidalous said:
			
		

> Unit PT is the best,  you push your self more in front of your friends and peers than you would alone.   What gets my goat is when only Mcpl and below show up.


This morning we went out for a morning run... only two of us showed up...hmmmmmm  so we did the old 1.5 mile run in under 11 minutes... with full rucksack, webbing and combat boots... oh ya... we are two of the Sgt's.



			
				PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> Change can only take place one soldier at a time.   Good luck.


Leadership by example,  I was recently in St. Jean to pick up a buddy (MG34) who was on his ILQ course... there was a large group of Sr. NCO's milling about when I saw MG34 coming towards me... I told him in a loud voice so that some could hear "that he would not get promoted because it looked to me that rank was predicated by Girth".  I could not believe how many... Fat, slobbering Sr. NCO's  I saw, I was appalled. There is no way many of them could think of Leading by example... some could not even walk down the road to go to PT without losing their breath.  The Army guys that I did see were in shape ... but a large majority of the rest... can you think Circus Clowns.

Yes, one soldier at a time, be the example for yourself and others.  On the 17th of Nov I will have 27 years in the regular forces, I am out 3 days a week with my rucksack keeping in shape ... while the shape I currently in is slightly "Pear Shape" I do keep fit.   I have put on over 700kms doing BFT's since Feb.   I do this to keep in shape, for the scenery, piece and quiet, and above all to lead by example.  I am getting close to 50 years old, and I suppose I could get away with slacking off,  I could make excuses and justify not doing PT but that is not me.   I would prefer to do the group PT as I find it is a team building tool.

Cheers
Pop

Remember... one person at a time,  you can make a difference.


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## aesop081 (15 Nov 2005)

_Many CF members become complacent in their career and view it as just another job.  This is not everyone, but many of them._ 




			
				Popurhedoff said:
			
		

> I find this especially true in the AirForce.



With all respect to your 27 years, I challenge you to visit my unit and find people who see the military as "just a job". if it was "just a job", both aircrews and ground crews would not put up with the personel shortages and the punishing schedule we run here.


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## kincanucks (15 Nov 2005)

Instead of slamming each other's elements for different reasons perhaps we could demonstrate a united front in order to let future applicants see the true meaning of combined operations and that we are all part of a great, albeit small, organization.  It is actually disheartening to see supposedly senior CF members on this site continuing the "us and them" attitude.


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## Popurhedoff (15 Nov 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> _Many CF members become complacent in their career and view it as just another job.   This is not everyone, but many of them._
> 
> 
> With all respect to your 27 years, I challenge you to visit my unit and find people who see the military as "just a job". if it was "just a job", both aircrews and ground crews would not put up with the personnel shortages and the punishing schedule we run here.



I stand by my statement, many not everyone. Most people put up with it because they would actually have to compete for their jobs on civie street, in the Military they have job security, they get paid the same whether you do a great job or a passable job. 

As for your unit, are you in Greenwood?   I have been posted to Moosejaw, Cold Lake, Shearwater, Greenwood, Shearwater again and now Petawawa. I have seen in the last 10 years that do most consider it a job not a career. With all the extra work, taskings, pay freezes, deployments, and of course good old amalgamation.. many do consider it a job and like most people it is human nature to take the path of least resistance.

Now there are some who do consider it a career, who do give a dam, who do put in the extra effort, do lead by example and to all those people,   I do greatly respect and admire them and for their efforts and contributions.


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## aesop081 (15 Nov 2005)

Popurhedoff said:
			
		

> As for your unit, are you in Greenwood?



NO...thank heaven !!

I suppose you are going to tell me that the army is different ?  After 11 years in the army (combat engineer BTW) , you can't fool me there.

You have an "us and them" attitude without the means to back it up.  You would think that after 27 years in the military, you would be able to see things with a broader perspective.


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## Popurhedoff (16 Nov 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> NO...thank heaven !!
> 
> I suppose you are going to tell me that the army is different ?   After 11 years in the army (combat engineer BTW) , you can't fool me there.
> 
> You have an "us and them" attitude without the means to back it up.   You would think that after 27 years in the military, you would be able to see things with a broader perspective.



heck no,   I have never been ARMY so I could not tell about that, as for the us and them...them I have no probs with the "them" ... on the other hand it is the "us" I was referring to...but you are half right, its not a matter of perspective... but I have seen a lot of us get ... broader and broader   

One of the statement I hear the most from my guys is:  "why do you do that... I only do the Express test once a year and get it over with."


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## echonine (17 Nov 2005)

Sooo Physical fitness:

Where do we start on a subject that's been discussed ad infinitum in both the Reg and Res Army.
The biggest issue involved in this discussion and most likely why fitness is not pushed too overtly is risk mitigation.
Is the DND willing to deal wished to propensity to body breakage in trades other than Infantry, in view of our sedentary lifestyle.
A small military, with a vast array of trades other than the high activity trades (Infantry, Engrs etc,) could lead to a voluminous rush to the MIR.
Big bucks are involved here, and increase in stretch of already overtaxed soldiers.
In the Res, a civy firefighter, or police officer who breaks a leg while on a Saturday morning run, who carries the can.

No, I think the soft sell of a culture of physical fitness will carry the day.
Break out the combat boot and rucksacks, and folks in and org that's already under stress for numbers, will vote with their feet.


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## paracowboy (17 Nov 2005)

bottom line: physical fitness is the responsibility of the individual soldier. Good troops will do it on their own, regardless of component, trade, or Op Tempo. Crap troops will not. 
It also falls on the shoulders of the Leaders to enforce proper standards applicable to their trade, and to simple common sense.
It does no favours for your troops to allow them to turn into fat slugs, as it increases their dangers in Theatre, and it decreases their employability, as well as their life-span.

But, crap troops and crap leaders abound.

You want to make a difference? Do some PT. Lead by example.

Can this thread die, now?


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## Haggis (17 Nov 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Can this thread die, now?



I thought it had!  ;D

don't worry, another PT/Fitness/Fat Troops thread will be along soon....


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## GO!!! (17 Nov 2005)

But look - we are not the only ones with this problem!!

http://www.sizenet.com/showdoc.asp?id=266&from=default.asp&action=


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## theoldyoungguy (17 Nov 2005)

In regards to people taking offence to someone else saying there trade in the military is lazy... its a generalization, not a personal attack. It is safe for me to say that infantry are in amazing shape, but there are exceptions, its also safe for me to say an engineer has more education than the average infanteer, but not always. One last observation, the air force as a whole is more out of shape than the army.

guys its a generalization, stop arguing against it, theres always exceptions to the "generalizations". I as an infanteer can probably out ruck the vast majoirty of clerks, but im sure theres a few that could make me look like an outdated gramma. KEY WORD FOR THE DAY GENERALIZATION!


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## armywoman (17 Nov 2005)

I have asked several people during my 10 years in the reserves,   why we do not hold ourselves to the same physical fitness standards that the Reg force hold themselves too.   Or more accurately to what the standards are, or supposed to be.

The answers given to me by officers and Snr Ncms, Reg and Res force is always the same.   We have one night of the week.   Three hours!   To train so that we can hopefully turn out troops that can do the job that they were intended.   Augment the Regs.   That means that pt is not done, there is too much to do learning how to put an engine together.   Taking apart a rifle, cleaning it and putting it back together again...and so on.   
Yes I am from a Combat Service Support Element.

AND
If someone gets hurt doing pt during our 3 hour training night, that means mountains of paperwork, and money paid out for disability.   Something they are not willing to risk for a part time soldier.

Well, my personal opinion is.   I joined the army.   If you are going to hire people they are going to have to know that pt is a requirement.   I fell into the same trap that alot do.   I got complacent,   and really fat.   Now I have to fix that.
Group pt, and take this from someone who has a lot of trouble keeping motivated and is the first to admit it,   is much easier.

Not the kind where everyone has a Mcpl or Sgt screeching at them from behind. Split into groups according to their fitness level, and working up to a set standard.

You can not tell me that running around the parade square for 20 minutes, a few pushups, sit ups,etc. Or a quick game of floor hockey, volleyball, what have you, takes so long that it can not be done, with time to train.  Then a quick shower and dressed again.   Basic training was a test to our 5 minute showering abilities.e
After a while the tired feelings go away.   Exercise gives you endorphins, endorphins make you happy..and you think better.



I have learned that pt is more fun when you have people who are working toward the same goal.   It keeps those voices in my head telling me to not bother, just quit.. quiet.

Not only will the army benefit, but so will the soldiers.

Seems to be a no brainer to me


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## Haggis (18 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> But look - we are not the only ones with this problem!!
> 
> http://www.sizenet.com/showdoc.asp?id=266&from=default.asp&action=



WTF??

Thankfully Canadian society is not as litigation happy as our southern neighbours yet.

GO!!! where do you find this stuff?  Better yet, why did you do this to us?  I refer you to Paracowboy's heartfelt  wish:



			
				paracowboy said:
			
		

> Can this thread die, now?



Please??? :'(


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Nov 2005)

No, as this is the mental part of your endurance training........." How do ya like me now Buttercup?"


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## Kat Stevens (18 Nov 2005)

Oh, it's mental, alright... :dontpanic:


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## GO!!! (18 Nov 2005)

Ok ok, I'll let it die.....

No I won't   ;D

Look! fat troops in malaysia too!! At least these guys get a bonus for losing weight!  






KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia (AP) - Malaysia's armed forces are fighting the battle of the bulge. 

Too many servicemen are overweight and death rates from diseases linked to obesity have soared compared to deaths on active duty, officers say, prompting a new campaign offering rewards for chubby soldiers who eat less and exercise more. 

Obese soldiers are being offered incentives to lose 10 kilograms in six months, a military spokesman said Wednesday. The rewards are yet to be determined, but it won't be extra meals, the spokesman said. 

Armed forces Chief Gen. Mohamad Zahidi Zainuddin said 20 per cent of 1,488 soldiers who died in the past decade succumbed to chronic weight-related problems such as high blood pressure, hypertension and diabetes. 

"This is a worrying trend, yet premature deaths from chronic diseases can be prevented with a healthy lifestyle," Zahidi was quoted as saying by the national news agency Bernama. 

Adding to the military's unhealthy lifestyle, more than half of the roughly 100,000 servicemen and women smoke cigarettes, Zahidi said. 

He has proposed that training facilities be made smoke-free zones, Bernama reported. 



Source : here.


Lock it up if you must.....


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