# Gathering Reservists in Borden



## ueo (20 Apr 2020)

I get the deployment of our few remaining trained medical pers to assist in PQ. I don't get why the tall foreheads in NDHQ would mass reservists (rumored at aprox 600) in austere conditions on haybox meals in the Cadet area in Blackdown CFB Borden. Social distancing may be a problem andalso given some of the stats and lack of testing there are , in all likelihood carriers, in this bloc. What's the employment possibility- deployed as cleaners in Retirement homes in TO? I have strong negative feelings on this, how about the rest of the readership. Wouldn't want my kid needlessly placed in harms way to gain political points. BTW Borden already has pers in quarantine!


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## BDTyre (20 Apr 2020)

Here in BC they've sent a number of the class C reservists up to the Vernon Cadet Camp for a mandatory two-week self-quarantine period. It looks like they have all been assigned individual rooms. Not sure what the rules are or how the meals work...I haven't bothered to ask anyone.


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## quadrapiper (20 Apr 2020)

ueo said:
			
		

> I get the deployment of our few remaining trained medical pers to assist in PQ. I don't get why the tall foreheads in NDHQ would mass reservists (rumored at aprox 600) in austere conditions on haybox meals in the Cadet area in Blackdown CFB Borden. Social distancing may be a problem andalso given some of the stats and lack of testing there are , in all likelihood carriers, in this bloc. What's the employment possibility- deployed as cleaners in Retirement homes in TO? I have strong negative feelings on this, how about the rest of the readership. Wouldn't want my kid needlessly placed in harms way to gain political points. BTW Borden already has pers in quarantine!


Had a look at http://www.cadets.ca/en/summer-opportunities/training-centres-blackdown-about.page - looks like adult and staff cadet numbers alone amount to almost 400, with 1800ish trainees (that last is hard to parse into actual bunks, given three intakes of two-week courses and two intakes of three-week courses, as well as the single-intake six-week stuff). Suggests there's a certain amount of elbow room available, though I doubt it's terribly comfortable.


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## Remius (20 Apr 2020)

ueo said:
			
		

> I get the deployment of our few remaining trained medical pers to assist in PQ. I don't get why the tall foreheads in NDHQ would mass reservists (rumored at aprox 600) in austere conditions on haybox meals in the Cadet area in Blackdown CFB Borden. Social distancing may be a problem andalso given some of the stats and lack of testing there are , in all likelihood carriers, in this bloc. What's the employment possibility- deployed as cleaners in Retirement homes in TO? I have strong negative feelings on this, how about the rest of the readership. Wouldn't want my kid needlessly placed in harms way to gain political points. BTW Borden already has pers in quarantine!



It’s a ready pool of manpower that can be used for variety of things.  My guess is the leadership hopes to have some depth in case of anything really.  Flood season is about to start and they could boost the DRCs, they could be used at control points if requested or needed, they could be deployed to assist in all sorts of capacity if needed.  We have no idea what will be needed.  We’ve sent rangers to northern communities, we’ve sent medical staff into care homes in Quebec.  Who knows what will be needed but they have troops in Borden they can tap into.  Some may have skills that can be used.  

On one of the dom ops I was on we were told we couldn’t deploy without medics in each platoon. We only had 2.   One of our platoons had three city firefighters.  Another guy was a plumber who was able to fix the arenas showers.  

Anyways, this sort of thing isn’t political.  It is anticipating and preparing.  If they are needed, cool.  If they aren’t, so be it.


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## my72jeep (20 Apr 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Had a look at http://www.cadets.ca/en/summer-opportunities/training-centres-blackdown-about.page - looks like adult and staff cadet numbers alone amount to almost 400, with 1800ish trainees (that last is hard to parse into actual bunks, given three intakes of two-week courses and two intakes of three-week courses, as well as the single-intake six-week stuff). Suggests there's a certain amount of elbow room available, though I doubt it's terribly comfortable.


It a mix of semi permanent vinyl shelters on concrete pads no heat anywhere from a 10 foot to 100 yard dash to the shower/shiter. The tents hold any where from 2 to 20 bunks and can house 12-1,400 at a time.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Apr 2020)

Hearing guys and girls in Borden are 4 to a tent with some really cheap space heaters.


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## quadrapiper (21 Apr 2020)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> It a mix of semi permanent vinyl shelters on concrete pads no heat anywhere from a 10 foot to 100 yard dash to the shower/shiter. The tents hold any where from 2 to 20 bunks and can house 12-1,400 at a time.


Ouch. Makes the Goose Spit H blocks (prefab flat-pack "temporary" structures of a WWII design, or so I was told; 1940s or 50s builds, regardless) sound both palatial and cozy.


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## Kilted (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Hearing guys and girls in Borden are 4 to a tent with some really cheap space heaters.



Probably space heaters the troops brought from home. Thats what I have done everytime I have gone there.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> Probably space heaters the troops brought from home. Thats what I have done everytime I have gone there.



Looks balmy https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/weather/ontario/borden

Nothing that a good run couldn't cure!


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## MilEME09 (21 Apr 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Ouch. Makes the Goose Spit H blocks (prefab flat-pack "temporary" structures of a WWII design, or so I was told; 1940s or 50s builds, regardless) sound both palatial and cozy.



Most of the facilities used as cadet camps seem to be like that, Rocky mountain cadet camp just outside ghost lake AB 50s vintage with heat pipes that sound like a freight train, and the buildings aren't winterized so you need to bring in portable toilets in winter cause there is no running water due to frozen pipes. Another camp near Caroline AB is just a bunch of log cabins with cast iron stoves, which I personally find rather cozy but not designed for long term comfort or long stays of troops and equipment.


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## Quirky (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Hearing guys and girls in Borden are 4 to a tent with some really cheap space heaters.



Should I feel bad for this? I mean they are Army reservists, not saying they should be treated like meat, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think you'd be staying in hotels when you signed up.


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## Haggis (21 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Should I feel bad for this? I mean they are *Army* reservists, not saying they should be treated like meat, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think you'd be staying in hotels when you signed up.



Had they been Air Reserves..... ;D


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## Blackadder1916 (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Hearing guys and girls in Borden are 4 to a tent with some really cheap space heaters.





			
				quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Ouch. Makes the Goose Spit H blocks (prefab flat-pack "temporary" structures of a WWII design, or so I was told; 1940s or 50s builds, regardless) sound both palatial and cozy.





			
				MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Most of the facilities used as cadet camps seem to be like that, Rocky mountain cadet camp just outside ghost lake AB 50s vintage with heat pipes that sound like a freight train, and the buildings aren't winterized so you need to bring in portable toilets in winter cause there is no running water due to frozen pipes. Another camp near Caroline AB is just a bunch of log cabins with cast iron stoves, which I personally find rather cozy but not designed for long term comfort or long stays of troops and equipment.



Luxury.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeXMKygwSco


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## BDTyre (21 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Should I feel bad for this? I mean they are Army reservists, not saying they should be treated like meat, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think you'd be staying in hotels when you signed up.



Well now...I did spend my pre-deployment in a hotel in Edmonton...


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## Remius (21 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Should I feel bad for this? I mean they are Army reservists, not saying they should be treated like meat, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think you'd be staying in hotels when you signed up.



 Could be in mod tents. 

Could be in arctic tents

Could be in hooches.  

If they packed right they have two sleeping bags and they are under shelter with electricity near running water and showers.  That isn’t bad.


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## MilEME09 (21 Apr 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> Could be in mod tents.
> 
> Could be in arctic tents
> 
> ...



Agreed, this isnt your home life of wearing a t shirt and slippers, if they packed right, they will be fine. My concern is with social distancing, everything being closed is any consideration being made to keep troops entertained in their down time. Bored troops tend to get into trouble, and the longer this goes the more bored they will get.


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## quadrapiper (21 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Most of the facilities used as cadet camps seem to be like that, Rocky mountain cadet camp just outside ghost lake AB 50s vintage with heat pipes that sound like a freight train, and the buildings aren't winterized so you need to bring in portable toilets in winter cause there is no running water due to frozen pipes. Another camp near Caroline AB is just a bunch of log cabins with cast iron stoves, which I personally find rather cozy but not designed for long term comfort or long stays of troops and equipment.


Rather like the sound of the log-cabin setup for cadet training.

Surprised Rocky hasn't been winterized. Are the buildings otherwise, for what they are, in good shape?


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## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Well now...I did spend my pre-deployment in a hotel in Edmonton...



I could be wrong on the type of course but I believe a PLQ course about 5 or 6 years ago in Borden used area motels do to a problem with the shacks they normally would use.


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## Cloud Cover (21 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Should I feel bad for this? I mean they are Army reservists, not saying they should be treated like meat, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think you'd be staying in hotels when you signed up.



Could also be that the army might want to treat them like they are lucky to even have them. But as the saying goes, the army doesn't join people, people join the army.


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## MilEME09 (21 Apr 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Rather like the sound of the log-cabin setup for cadet training.
> 
> Surprised Rocky hasn't been winterized. Are the buildings otherwise, for what they are, in good shape?



Very good, they also have one person posted there year round as the RQ/care taker, the house they get is pretty nice. Barracks rooms are 2 to a room, classroom space is ample. Again due to not being winterized fire suppression system doesnt work in winter.

The area is used extensively for BMQ and BMQ(L) courses for dismounted ops, especially Navigation training. If they could just spend a few million to winterize all those buildings it would be a great year round facility. Heck its remote enough, build a rifle range and you could run BMQ's there without ever leaving the camp.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Could also be that the army might want to treat them like they are lucky to even have them. But as the saying goes, the army doesn't join people, people join the army.



There's a US aircraft carrier that might argue with you there. 

I'd be interested to see how 'social distancing' works when you're doing platoon level sandbag filling etc ...


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## brihard (21 Apr 2020)

I stayed at the Blackdown cadet camp back in 2010 for Op CADENCE, the G8/G20 summit. sounds liek the same infrastructure- the 'peach' coloured weatherhavens. Same as you see in Connaught for that matter. Certainly not the lap of luxury, but fine enough to get paid to sit around. Better than what a lot of us have slept in on operation. They should have electricity available to their tents, and usual 'camp' ablutions facilities and mess hall.

But yes, bored troops are dumb troops. I'm sure some shenanigans will ensue.


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## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

I asked my son a few minutes ago if he knows anyone who went and he does know one guy.  According to this guy "it sucks and my son should be happy he's not there.".  This kid is 18 or 19 so I attribute a lot of that way of thinking to age and maturity.  When I was that age in the Reserves, the summer class B was great although I was an MP then and we basically did as we wanted.  We also didn't have cell phones with data plans.


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## Weinie (21 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Most of the facilities used as cadet camps seem to be like that, Rocky mountain cadet camp just outside ghost lake AB 50s vintage with heat pipes that sound like a freight train, and the buildings aren't winterized so you need to bring in portable toilets in winter cause there is no running water due to frozen pipes. Another camp near Caroline AB is just a bunch of log cabins with cast iron stoves, which I personally find rather cozy but not designed for long term comfort or long stays of troops and equipment.



Luxury..sorry only saw Blackadders response after I posted.  Last time I was in Blackdown there were no hard shelters aval, just 10 man Arctic tents, or in our case, a Big Al Lemberg and six man Arctic tent.


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## Remius (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I asked my son a few minutes ago if he knows anyone who went and he does know one guy.  According to this guy "it sucks and my son should be happy he's not there.".  This kid is 18 or 19 so I attribute a lot of that way of thinking to age and maturity.  When I was that age in the Reserves, the summer class B was great although I was an MP then and we basically did as we wanted.  We also didn't have cell phones with data plans.



It probably sucks because it’s  hurry up and wait.


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## brihard (21 Apr 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> It probably sucks because it’s  hurry up and wait.



For G8/G20 we literally played 'on the bus, off the bus' with an actual bus. Someone thought our time would be well spent rehearsing that. We got a couple hours' notice to go and get on a bus, which then drove about an hour loop around Borden, then parked again and we all got off. Nothing more to it than that, we practiced a bus ride. It was tooneriffic.


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## dapaterson (21 Apr 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> For G8/G20 we literally played 'on the bus, off the bus' with an actual bus. Someone thought our time would be well spent rehearsing that. We got a couple hours' notice to go and get on a bus, which then drove about an hour loop around Borden, then parked again and we all got off. Nothing more to it than that, we practiced a bus ride. It was tooneriffic.



Did you get a certificate of military achievement?


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## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> It probably sucks because it’s  hurry up and wait.



I was thinking because there's no Xbox but what you said makes sense also. lol  Does anyone know if they are really doing nothing as this kid says because this might be a good opportunity to brush up on some skills like nav etc?


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## Blackadder1916 (21 Apr 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> For G8/G20 we literally played 'on the bus, off the bus' with an actual bus.  . . . we practiced a bus ride.



Was it a "short bus"?


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## blacktriangle (21 Apr 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> For G8/G20 we literally played 'on the bus, off the bus' with an actual bus. Someone thought our time would be well spent rehearsing that. We got a couple hours' notice to go and get on a bus, which then drove about an hour loop around Borden, then parked again and we all got off. Nothing more to it than that, we practiced a bus ride. It was tooneriffic.



Was it a school bus? You could have had them modified to use the escape hatch up top as a cupola...and take the rear door off, use for a tail gunner etc.

(If anyone at NDHQ wants further ideas, I'm available for $100 bucks an hour on contract)

 ;D


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## BDTyre (21 Apr 2020)

Based on a Facebook post from 39 CBG, they are rotating troops into Vernon 30 at a time. The first group quarantines for 14 days - no in-person interactions at all; even meals are delivered. After 14 days, they stay at Vernon as "on-call" and another group of 30 will come in and be quarantined. Presumably after a month, the original 30 return home.

I imagine Borden might be operating similarly.


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## MilEME09 (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I was thinking because there's no Xbox but what you said makes sense also. lol  Does anyone know if they are really doing nothing as this kid says because this might be a good opportunity to brush up on some skills like nav etc?



If they are sitting around and doing nothing, that is a leadership failure to me, plenty of time to do a lot of IBTS related training, heck take them to the range and run a pwt 2. With such a large group there is a lot of potential for individual and collective training.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Should I feel bad for this?



Yup.


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## BDTyre (21 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> If they are sitting around and doing nothing, that is a leadership failure to me, plenty of time to do a lot of IBTS related training, heck take them to the range and run a pwt 2. With such a large group there is a lot of potential for individual and collective training.



39 CBG command said the soldiers would have no interaction with family, friends or even with their colleagues. That said, I have seen photos and video of a PT session with everyone maintaining I would say at least 10 feet of distance between themselves.

I'm not sure where the rules around what and what is not permissible would stem from - not likely to come from Brigade, possibly from Division but maybe even higher?


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## MilEME09 (21 Apr 2020)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> 39 CBG command said the soldiers would have no interaction with family, friends or even with their colleagues. That said, I have seen photos and video of a PT session with everyone maintaining I would say at least 10 feet of distance between themselves.
> 
> I'm not sure where the rules around what and what is not permissible would stem from - not likely to come from Brigade, possibly from Division but maybe even higher?



I haven't seen anything that extreme in 41 CBG, so I am think it is not from Div level, it might be part of 39s mitigation plan.


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## dimsum (21 Apr 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> For G8/G20 we literally played 'on the bus, off the bus' with an actual bus. Someone thought our time would be well spent rehearsing that. We got a couple hours' notice to go and get on a bus, which then drove about an hour loop around Borden, then parked again and we all got off. Nothing more to it than that, we practiced a bus ride. It was tooneriffic.



I was going to say "that's ridiculous" but then I remembered it's the military.


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## garb811 (21 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> If they are sitting around and doing nothing, that is a leadership failure to me, plenty of time to do a lot of IBTS related training, heck take them to the range and run a pwt 2. With such a large group there is a lot of potential for individual and collective training.


You must have read a bunch of different documents which originated from the CDS on down than I did then, because one of the things that everyone was ordered to do was to cease doing any kind of training which isn't operationally essential.  Last time I looked, "a lot of IBTS related training" and PWT2 aren't pre-reqs for Op LASER.


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## MilEME09 (21 Apr 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> You must have read a bunch of different documents which originated from the CDS on down than I did then, because one of the things that everyone was ordered to do was to cease doing any kind of training which isn't operationally essential.  Last time I looked, "a lot of IBTS related training" and PWT2 aren't pre-reqs for Op LASER.



And yet I have seen 1 CER, and CFB Shilo post about driver courses going on right now. What is determined essential training? Plenty of DOMOP oriented training could be done and considered essential. Do firefighting training now, etc...


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## BDTyre (21 Apr 2020)

If they lack drivers I suppose they could get authorization to run people through as long as they observer proper precautions?


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## Jarnhamar (21 Apr 2020)

Unless the reserves plan on walking everywhere, doing any sort of task will mean members break the 6 or 10 foot rule.

I think it would be better to segregate them by section or platoon. That way they could also run low level training. 

It's easy to be creative and write off ibts while doing relevant stuff. A month or longer of pt and white space? You could really get a lot done. 

Or people could sit on their bunks, eat junk food and play on their phones.


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## BDTyre (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or people could sit on their bunks, eat junk food and play on their phones.



I don't even think they get the junk food luxury, unless they packed it with them.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *Unless the reserves plan on walking everywhere*, doing any sort of task will mean members break the 6 or 10 foot rule.
> 
> I think it would be better to segregate them by section or platoon. That way they could also run low level training.
> 
> ...



I think you've just described an excellent Infantry training program right there


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## quadrapiper (21 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Very good, they also have one person posted there year round as the RQ/care taker, the house they get is pretty nice. Barracks rooms are 2 to a room, classroom space is ample. Again due to not being winterized fire suppression system doesnt work in winter.
> 
> The area is used extensively for BMQ and BMQ(L) courses for dismounted ops, especially Navigation training. If they could just spend a few million to winterize all those buildings it would be a great year round facility. Heck its remote enough, build a rifle range and you could run BMQ's there without ever leaving the camp.


That is rather odd: would've almost understood leaving it as-is if the only notable users were cadets in the summer, but not when it's in real use year-round.


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## MilEME09 (21 Apr 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> That is rather odd: would've almost understood leaving it as-is if the only notable users were cadets in the summer, but not when it's in real use year-round.



It is a very under utilized facility, if you Google rocky mountain cadet training facility, and go to photos, you can see a 360 degree shot from the parade square, and from the HQ building, a lot of potential for that place, Pres in the Calgary area could utilize it a lot more with a few upgrades.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Apr 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I think you've just described an excellent Infantry training program right there



With a snazzy sound track to boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGkyhaMdpto


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## dangerboy (21 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> It is a very under utilized facility, if you Google rocky mountain cadet training facility, and go to photos, you can see a 360 degree shot from the parade square, and from the HQ building, a lot of potential for that place, Pres in the Calgary area could utilize it a lot more with a few upgrades.



It is a great little area. I was there this past Jan to observe a trial that was taking place there using winter equipment. Good area for dismounted winter exercise; and the view is just spectacular.


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## MJP (21 Apr 2020)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> If they lack drivers I suppose they could get authorization to run people through as long as they observer proper precautions?



That is exactly the case.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> With a snazzy sound track _*to boot.*_
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGkyhaMdpto



I see what you did there  ;D


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## PuckChaser (21 Apr 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> For G8/G20 we literally played 'on the bus, off the bus' with an actual bus. Someone thought our time would be well spent rehearsing that. We got a couple hours' notice to go and get on a bus, which then drove about an hour loop around Borden, then parked again and we all got off. Nothing more to it than that, we practiced a bus ride. It was tooneriffic.



You're lucky you just had to ride around on a bus. I got to set up the stupid CP about 20 times, including my personal favourite: Our "NTM test" after we were on task and effectively on call. The more times we set the CP up, the more things we broke. Icing on the cake was that NTM test we did (I think on the Friday morning?) after we went on call Thursday night, where half way through the move an actual task came down the pipe and the CO had to figure out how to get a Pl detached and sent to Huntsville. At least everything was packed up....


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## Quirky (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Yup.



Just got a flashback to OP Podium in 2010. Our plane landed in Abbotsford, we were a mix of Army/Air Force. All the Army guys grabbed their ruck sacks and kit bags, some junior members were yelled at by various ranks, and tossed them into the back of large Army transport things, don’t know the technical term. Us Air Force grabbed our civy luggage, some brought golf clubs, threw it onto our charter bus which took us to downtown Vancouver and the cruise ship accommodation. I didn’t know where the Army guys went until I saw a buddy who came to check our generators at the airport. Told me they were all in tents at Aldergrove. Same job supporting the op, but completely different treatment. Pretty sure quite a few OTs went in after it was all over. You have to be really committed to the Army life, I would definitely not last long.


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## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Just got a flashback to OP Podium in 2010. Our plane landed in Abbotsford, we were a mix of Army/Air Force. All the Army guys grabbed their ruck sacks and kit bags, some junior members were yelled at by various ranks, and tossed them into the back of large Army transport things, don’t know the technical term. Us Air Force grabbed our civy luggage, some brought golf clubs, threw it onto our charter bus which took us to downtown Vancouver and the cruise ship accommodation. I didn’t know where the Army guys went until I saw a buddy who came to check our generators at the airport. Told me they were all in tents at Aldergrove. Same job supporting the op, but completely different treatment. Pretty sure quite a few OTs went in after it was all over. You have to be really committed to the Army life, I would definitely not last long.



I take my hat off to those who are in the combat arms trades for doing what they do because while I liked doing some short field ex's when I was younger and in the Reserves, I know I wouldn't last long doing that stuff now.  I'm not even sure my body would tolerate sleeping on an air mattress or the ground. I look forward to my memory foam mattress every night.


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## ballz (22 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Just got a flashback to OP Podium in 2010. Our plane landed in Abbotsford, we were a mix of Army/Air Force. All the Army guys grabbed their ruck sacks and kit bags, some junior members were yelled at by various ranks, and tossed them into the back of large Army transport things, don’t know the technical term. Us Air Force grabbed our civy luggage, some brought golf clubs, threw it onto our charter bus which took us to downtown Vancouver and the cruise ship accommodation. I didn’t know where the Army guys went until I saw a buddy who came to check our generators at the airport. Told me they were all in tents at Aldergrove. Same job supporting the op, but completely different treatment. Pretty sure quite a few OTs went in after it was all over. You have to be really committed to the Army life, I would definitely not last long.



The CAF really does need to do better on this front. On one hand the culture of the RCAF and RCN seem to just be completely flippant with taxpayer money when it comes to hotels/car rentals/etc (admittedly that could just be my Army side talking), and on the other hand the Army is so accustomed to being frugal that they often live far worse than required for no reason to the point of causing retention issues.

But it gets real ugly when they are mixed together. The last LENTUS we ended up sending troops to BC under JTFP, the RCN and CA pers were working side by side during the day. The RCN pers were staying in hotels and as a result also getting incidentals, the CA folks were staying on in a school gym I believe that's what it was) on cots and not receiving incidentals. This kind of stuff really does kill morale.


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## stellarpanther (22 Apr 2020)

ballz said:
			
		

> The CAF really does need to do better on this front. On one hand the culture of the RCAF and RCN seem to just be completely flippant with taxpayer money when it comes to hotels/car rentals/etc (admittedly that could just be my Army side talking), and on the other hand the Army is so accustomed to being frugal that they often live far worse than required for no reason to the point of causing retention issues.
> 
> But it gets real ugly when they are mixed together. The last LENTUS we ended up sending troops to BC under JTFP, the RCN and CA pers were working side by side during the day. The RCN pers were staying in hotels and as a result also getting incidentals, the CA folks were staying on in a school gym I believe that's what it was) on cots and not receiving incidentals. This kind of stuff really does kill morale.



I've been in Ottawa for most of my career and haven't seen it first hand but have heard several people tell me just what you posted.  My question is what is the   reasoning for it?  Is it because they don't want the army guys getting to soft?  As you said it certainly does kill morale and I know stories like this are things release clerks here about.  Mind you I don't think it would be excepted if everyone was put on cots, it needs to be hotels for everyone.


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## dimsum (22 Apr 2020)

ballz said:
			
		

> The CAF really does need to do better on this front. On one hand the culture of the RCAF and RCN seem to just be completely flippant with taxpayer money when it comes to hotels/car rentals/etc (admittedly that could just be my Army side talking), and on the other hand the Army is so accustomed to being frugal that they often live far worse than required for no reason to the point of causing retention issues.



For the RCAF, at least for aircrew, the hotel situation is because of crew rest.  It is what it is now because of fatigue causing crashes and deaths.  

I'm not sure about the RCN, but the USN's crashes (USS Fitzgerald and McCain) probably got them thinking about fatigue and crew rest too.  

This is straying from the topic though.


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## stellarpanther (22 Apr 2020)

Thinking about some of the army stuff and the way things are in those units, I heard a story a couple years ago about two guys in the Navy volunteering for parade that to their surprise was being run b the RCR from Petawawa.  These two guys were walking down the road still drinking their coffee when they heard someone yelling at them and telling them to hurry the frig up.Since they were 20 minutes early, they ignored him and kept walking at a casual pace until this MCpl came up to their face and told them to move, they were both PO2's and words were exchanged but from what I heard that was the end of it.  They apparently came back to work a few days later saying that they now understand why people in the army are releasing because who in their right mind would put up with that everyday.  

Sorry, I'm bad for getting off topic!


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## MilEME09 (22 Apr 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> For the RCAF, at least for aircrew, the hotel situation is because of crew rest.  It is what it is now because of fatigue causing crashes and deaths.
> 
> I'm not sure about the RCN, but the USN's crashes (USS Fitzgerald and McCain) probably got them thinking about fatigue and crew rest too.
> 
> This is straying from the topic though.


How often do you think on the army side MSE safety is ignore in regards to max driving hours or required rest before driving? I have seen it plenty in 10 years


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## stellarpanther (22 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> How often do you think on the army side MSE safety is ignore in regards to max driving hours or required rest before driving? I have seen it plenty in 10 years



Are CAF MSE drivers who are driving the 18 wheelers required to keep a logbook, have it inspected by MTO or even stop at the inspection stations?


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## AmmoTech90 (22 Apr 2020)

When I was in, our section did a lot of transport runs from Borden to Trenton and return meeting aircraft.  I (our section) paid for the MSE Ops to bunk down in Trenton either at the Yukon or on the economy depending on what was available and what time of night it was many times.  This was due to the aircraft being late and the drivers being out of hours.  So it is enforced.  Of course we did not have an operational need to make the run immediately, normally the cargo could overnight in Trenton if needed.


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## dimsum (22 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> How often do you think on the army side MSE safety is ignore in regards to max driving hours or required rest before driving? I have seen it plenty in 10 years



I'm sure it is.  That's not something to be proud of.


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## MilEME09 (22 Apr 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm sure it is.  That's not something to be proud of.



Wasn't saying it was, however we were on the topic of fatigue, and mitigation of it.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2020)

Better explication by MM


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## mariomike (22 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> How often do you think on the army side MSE safety is ignore in regards to max driving hours or required rest before driving?



For reference to the discussion. ( Please note: This post is from ten years ago. ) 

TRANSPORTATION MANUAL 

HOURS OF WORK
https://army.ca/forums/threads/92026/post-910313.html#msg910313

Key words: "unless an operational necessity dictates otherwise"   "exceptions to the hours of work regulations."


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## daftandbarmy (22 Apr 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm sure it is.  That's not something to be proud of.



That's one of the main reasons I preferred to deploy by chartered bus. Not tactical, but less life threatening


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