# Promotion & education problem



## MagiChrist (3 May 2011)

Hi to all,

I can't really say the nature of my problem here because of the peculiar situation that I am in, but I have a question to ask. Does someone that has a Bachelor degree (instead of the Police Foundation Diploma) and entered the Regular Forces as a NCM MP will still get promoted to Corporal right after BMQ ? I can't find an article that say otherwise and it would really help me to know more about this.

Thank you,


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## Sigger (3 May 2011)

Ask your recruiter.


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## MagiChrist (3 May 2011)

I'm already in the Forces and the I already asked the recruiters and they don't know.


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## dapaterson (3 May 2011)

My understanding is that the BA would ahve to be in Criminology or a related field; but as I'm doing this from memory I can't guarantee the accuracy.


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## BernDawg (3 May 2011)

Looks like it would be prudent to contact yor career manager and ask about completing a PLAR to see what can be done for you.


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## medicineman (3 May 2011)

If you're already in, why not talk to the Base Personnel Selection Office - they're supposed to know these things.  This page from the Esquimalt PSO's office tells you what's required in the AVOTP section.

MM


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## Blenkarn (5 May 2011)

Yes, the university degree should be on the exact same level as the college degree. The college degree/diploma is more often referred too as it is what most applicants join the regular force with... however a bachelor degree affirms you the same entry as someone with a diploma. This of course depends on your bachelor degree being suitable for the military police, which is essentially relevent to a criminal justice field, such as criminology, sociology, or psychology. There might be others, I am not sure. 

To my knowledge, once done BMQ, all Regular Force Military Police members are promoted to Corporal (Regular Force, not Reserve).


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## Precept (14 May 2011)

All MP's get promoted to Cpl upon completion on BMQ. What you did to qualify for the trade has no bearing. Be it a tour in Afghanistan, Police Foundations, or Criminal Justice etc.


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## Legend (15 May 2011)

Blenkarn said:
			
		

> Yes, the university degree should be on the exact same level as the college degree. The college degree/diploma is more often referred too as it is what most applicants join the regular force with... however a bachelor degree affirms you the same entry as someone with a diploma.



A university degree will enable you to apply for MP(Officer) opposed to a college diploma which will allow you to apply to MP(NCM). A degree would also enable you to apply for MP NCM but then why did you do four years of university? 

If you score well on the Aptitude and are deemed suitable for Officer, you will be sent on a 3 day selection phase where you will be monitored, assessed, and tested to determine suitability.  

As stated above, speak to a recruiter for more specifics, that's what they are there for.


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## garb811 (15 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> A university degree will enable you to apply for MP(Officer) opposed to a college diploma which will allow you to apply to MP(NCM). A degree would also enable you to apply for MP NCM but then why did you do four years of university?
> 
> If you score well on the Aptitude and are deemed suitable for Officer, you will be sent on a 3 day selection phase where you will be monitored, assessed, and tested to determine suitability.
> 
> As stated above, speak to a recruiter for more specifics, that's what they are there for.


For the same reason that many other pers in the CF who have a degree chose to become NCMs?


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## Legend (15 May 2011)

garb811 said:
			
		

> For the same reason that many other pers in the CF who have a degree chose to become NCMs?



Elaborate?

 I realise that just because you have a university degree does not mean DEO upon graduation. I also realise there are leaders and there are followers. Some choose to remain in the grey area while others like to be the center of attention. I will be the first to tell you that I am firm believer that the only thing that separates some Officers from some NCM's is a degree, but if you have made the investment, you might as well apply for the top.


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## Blenkarn (15 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> Elaborate?
> 
> I realise that just because you have a university degree does not mean DEO upon graduation. I also realise there are leaders and there are followers. Some choose to remain in the grey area while others like to be the center of attention. I will be the first to tell you that I am firm believer that the only thing that separates some Officers from some NCM's is a degree, but if you have made the investment, you might as well apply for the top.



There are numerous people who join as MP NCM because the job is entirely different. An MP NCM would be doing patrol work, etc, where an officer would be doing paperwork, administration tasks, etc. This does not appeal to many people. Along with the fact that you need a diploma at the minimal to become an MP NCM, many opt for a 4 year Criminology degree as it will help them more later on when they attempt to transition to civilian police. 

There are many people who do not want to be an NCM, and many who do not want to be an Officer, and its a personal choice of what job you wish to apply for when you go into the recruiting center. MPO and MP are entirely different.


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## garb811 (15 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> I realise that just because you have a university degree does not mean DEO upon graduation. I also realise there are leaders and there are followers. Some choose to remain in the grey area while others like to be the center of attention...



 :facepalm:


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## Legend (16 May 2011)

Blenkarn said:
			
		

> There are numerous people who join as MP NCM because the job is entirely different. An MP NCM would be doing patrol work, etc, where an officer would be doing paperwork, administration tasks, etc. This does not appeal to many people. Along with the fact that you need a diploma at the minimal to become an MP NCM, many opt for a 4 year Criminology degree as it will help them more later on when they attempt to transition to civilian police.
> 
> There are many people who do not want to be an NCM, and many who do not want to be an Officer, and its a personal choice of what job you wish to apply for when you go into the recruiting center. MPO and MP are entirely different.



Well said, but you find me a criminology scholar in the lines as an NCM. You do not spend 50,000 dollars on a bachelor of arts Degree to not give MPO a shot. Finish your degree, then tell me your willing to do the same job as a 2 year college bird course grad. But if that is the attitude and respect you will provide to your future troops, hands down, good on you.  




			
				Stacked said:
			
		

> Some people would prefer to take a much more hands on role, so the NCM route would be for them regardless of their educational background. Some people would rather an administrative role, so more then likely the Officer route would be for them.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "They should apply for the top". Actually, I am not sure what the hell you are rambling about..  ???



Do you know what you mean by your statements? Is your distinction between an NCM and an Officer is that one pushes paperwork all day while the other gets the hands on experience? 

The Top. It is self explanatory.


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## ballz (16 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> Well said, but you find me a criminology scholar in the lines as an NCM. You do not spend 50,000 dollars on a bachelor of arts Degree to not give MPO a shot. Finish your degree, then tell me your willing to do the same job as a 2 year college bird course grad. But if that is the attitude and respect you will provide to your future troops, hands down, good on you.



I know a WO from 1PPCLI with a chemical engineering degree. Not everybody is as narrow sighted as you're suggesting, nor does everybody know that they are going to be in a CFRC in 4 years when they sign up for a Bachelor's program.

Not everybody thinks that just because they have a "better" education that they are too good "to do the same job as a 2 year college bird course grad."


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## Michael OLeary (16 May 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Not everybody thinks that just because they have a "better" education that they are too good "to do the same job as a 2 year college bird course grad."



Oddly emough, that's exactly the selling job the educational establishment tries to make in order to jutify its existence.  Are we now to blame people for believing it?


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## ballz (16 May 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Oddly emough, that's exactly the selling job the educational establishment tries to make in order to jutify its existence.  Are we now to blame people for believing it?



You are right and it's gross. Almost fraudulant what they try and sell.

To be honest, I blame my parents generation and older for doing that selling job for the universities. Once upon a time a Bachelor's actually meant something, and my parents sure failed to recognize the standards drop in most fields and a Bachelor's become the new high school diploma.

However, I can blame people for being naive / not making their own well-informed decisions, no matter how much the importance of "education" was drilled into their heads growing up. My parents religion was drilled into my head growing up too but I knew I didn't agree with them by the time I was 12.


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## lawandorder (16 May 2011)

Like most on the topic have said, a University degree for "off the street" applicants does meet the criteria for MP NCM with a few mitigating factors attached to that.  Those are laid out on the CF recruitment site.  They are pretty self explanatory.

Now to say a person who holds a University Degree is wasting their time as an NCM MP is off base.  In fact I think the comments come from someone who has no idea what they're talking about.  To imply "The Top" means Officer is again way off base from a person who probably has no experience in the trade.  The NCM job and the Officer job is completely different in the MP trade, in fact that’s why there are two different MOSID's.  Wow.

Legend, with your statements about a "2 year college bird course" vs a Bachelor Degree, you imply a person who chooses to go and do the college course is someone inferior to that of the person who chose to do the Bachelor degree.  As well you imply that a university degree is harder then the College Diploma.....I mean "2 year college bird course" to obtain.  I'd disagree with both your implications.

As well, what about all the MP's that didn't need a college diploma to be in the trade, or the re-musters who only need a few credits?  Most of the best peace officers I know are MP's without any formal education past High School outside of the CF.  But yet with your logic, how dare they attempt to do the same job as me as I hold a "2 year college bird course"!


Sorry to steer the the thread to left of arc a bit, but I hate when idiots chime in on things they have no clue about.


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## Blenkarn (16 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> Well said, but you find me a criminology scholar in the lines as an NCM. You do not spend 50,000 dollars on a bachelor of arts Degree to not give MPO a shot. Finish your degree, then tell me your willing to do the same job as a 2 year college bird course grad. But if that is the attitude and respect you will provide to your future troops, hands down, good on you.



I can give you plenty of those. Hell, I could give you reservists who have bachelor degrees, or even a MSc in Math. There are numerous MP NCM's who have a full undergraduate degree, and more higher education. Once again, it is a personal choice, and you seem to be stuck on viewing MP and MPO as one single job. They are different jobs, with different roles. Certain roles of one don't appeal to some people, and vice versa. Honestly, in some cases, that two year 'bird course' is even going to be more applicable then a Criminology, Sociology, or Psychology degree throughout QL3 training. These individuals who have the college course will have more experience with restraints, weapons, police tactics, etc. 

Personally, I think you are a bit over your head in what you are arguing.


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## garb811 (16 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> Well said, but you find me a criminology scholar in the lines as an NCM. You do not spend 50,000 dollars on a bachelor of arts Degree to not give MPO a shot. Finish your degree, then tell me your willing to do the same job as a 2 year college bird course grad. But if that is the attitude and respect you will provide to your future troops, hands down, good on you.
> 
> 
> Do you know what you mean by your statements? Is your distinction between an NCM and an Officer is that one pushes paperwork all day while the other gets the hands on experience?
> ...


And, as others have said, it is obvious you have no idea as to what the difference between a MP and MPO is.  Many pers follow the Criminology, or other University degree, route and realize that they do not wish to ride a desk, they wish to get out and do the job, and those who wish to "do the job" and are smart join as a MP.  We do have a few (well, more than that actually) MPO who try to get down in the weeds and do the job of a MP and unfailingly, their primary duties suffer and the entire guardhouse pays the price as a result.

"The Top" is not self explanatory, it depends very much on MOSID.


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## dangles (16 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> Well said, but you find me a criminology scholar in the lines as an NCM. You do not spend 50,000 dollars on a bachelor of arts Degree to not give MPO a shot. Finish your degree, then tell me your willing to do the same job as a 2 year college bird course grad. But if that is the attitude and respect you will provide to your future troops, hands down, good on you.
> 
> 
> Do you know what you mean by your statements? Is your distinction between an NCM and an Officer is that one pushes paperwork all day while the other gets the hands on experience?
> ...



Last time I checked my tuition was $5000 a year...a simple bachelor's degree in most all cases is a 3 year program [honours is 4 years], which takes your $50000 evaluation down quite a notch [$50000-$15000 =$35000 saved]. You can argue that you were including all costs [transportation, food, leisure etc.] but trust me, if you're spending 35000 in 3 years on those things then you're doing it real wrong [in my opinion...some people obviously are not good with their budgeting]. Also, think of grants/bursaries/scholarships many people receive that would cut the cost of uni down.

 Regardless, I know a bunch of people in college who are more "scholarly" in terms of work ethic than some of my other friends in university...and from my personal experience in an arts program, you almost have to try in order to fail a class. Now I don't mean to knock university or anything like that, but in my experience if you do the work you shouldn't fail ever, which kind of knocks the degree off the pedastal you placed it on. 

I also know the worth of a Police Foundations diploma, and yeah it is not much compared to most degrees [did a coop at a police station and they told me all about the recruiting process and the worth of this diploma, as it was what I wanted to pursue at the time], but that doesn't mean it is a bird course. You should look at the reasons behind why people are choosing that route, instead of instantly judging them because of their decision to pursue what could be one of their goals in life/the only education they have the means for.


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## helpup (16 May 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> I also realise there are leaders and there are followers. Some choose to remain in the grey area while others like to be the center of attention.



Wow, we have a bunch of NCO's who like to remain in the grey areas.... Who'd thunk it.


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## rocksteady (21 Apr 2012)

As an MP NCM with a Bachelor's Degree and college diploma in Police Foundations, I can tell you that Police Foundations is a joke compared to getting a degree.  I had to study very hard to get my degree and I breezed through college exams without even studying half the time.  

That being said you don't have to be a rocket scientist to get a degree.  If the person is somewhat motivated and moderately dedicated to their education they will squeak by.  Whether your average is 60 or 90, you still get that piece of paper.


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