# MND Announces 4800 Person Reduction in CAF and DND Management



## Old Sweat (7 Oct 2013)

Mr Nicholson held a press briefing at 1400 re the above. Details are still sketchy.


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## dapaterson (7 Oct 2013)

MND announcement was about a set of initiatives called "Defence Renewal" that may free up up to 4800 PYs to re-invest in other capabilities, through process modernization in a number of areas; they may also save millions of dollars a year.

Anyone who went through MCCRT in the 1990s should dust off the comms material from then and watch for the similarities.


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## The Bread Guy (7 Oct 2013)

A bit more detail from CBC.ca:


> The Department of National Defence has launched a top-down review of how it manages its back office with a goal of finding about a billion dollars a year in savings it can reinvest in operations and training.
> 
> The so-called Defence Renewal initiative was launched in the summer of 2012, but really took flight after Tom Lawson took over as chief of the defence staff. One of his goals was finding "more teeth and less tail," as prime minister Stephen Harper put it.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (7 Oct 2013)

And here's the Info-machine version - highlights mine:


> The Honourable Rob Nicholson, P.C., Q.C., M.P. for Niagara Falls, Minister of National Defence, today launched a major initiative to bolster front-line investments by reducing inefficiencies, streamlining business processes and reducing corporate overhead within Canada's defence organization.
> 
> "In line with the Prime Minister's intent to free up support for operational capability and readiness, National Defence has put forward an ambitious plan to reduce corporate overhead," said Minister Nicholson. "Defence Renewal will help National Defence continue to build a modern first class military, ready to take on the challenges of tomorrow."
> 
> ...


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## Old EO Tech (7 Oct 2013)

If they want to make our spare parts system more effective they can give us a real scaling tool in DRMIS..... 

I can hardly wait to see how they actually enact some of these changes especially in light of the pending rust out off our entire B fleet before it is replaced in 2023.


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## Michael OLeary (7 Oct 2013)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> I can hardly wait to see how they actually enact some of these changes especially in light of the pending rust out off our entire B fleet before it is replaced in 2013.



Condemned vehicles don't need maintainers.


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## Old EO Tech (7 Oct 2013)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Condemned vehicles don't need maintainers.



Well they are not going to hire contractors to rape all the parts of the condemned vehicles, to keep the rest going


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## Halifax Tar (7 Oct 2013)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> If they want to make our spare parts system more effective they can give us a real scaling tool in DRMIS.....
> 
> I can hardly wait to see how they actually enact some of these changes especially in light of the pending rust out off our entire B fleet before it is replaced in 2013.



To me it has more to do with the supply side of the house and utilizing the CFSS over LPO where ever possible.  But now with DRIMIS SPSS/MAINT and Unit Supply are fully tied at the hip.

I like the idea of more accurate stocktaking's as I personally feel our material accounting is dismal.


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## Occam (7 Oct 2013)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> If they want to make our spare parts system more effective they can give us a real scaling tool in  put a bunch of 76 mm HE rounds in DRMIS.....



FTFY.


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## jollyjacktar (7 Oct 2013)

:cheers:

Hell yeah!!  I'll second that.  Friggn DRMIS, how I hate that program.


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## FJAG (7 Oct 2013)

DND Press Backgrounder with links to some info here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/article.page?doc=defence-renewal/hmhfyhmz

 :cheers:


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## Old EO Tech (7 Oct 2013)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> :cheers:
> 
> Hell yeah!!  I'll second that.  Friggn DRMIS, how I hate that program.



I don't disagree, but fighting DRMIS is even more futile than fighting pips and crowns  :-\


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## cavalryman (7 Oct 2013)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> I don't disagree, but fighting DRMIS is even more futile than fighting pips and crowns  :-\


DRMIS is like the Borg.  You will be assimilated.  In both official languages


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## jeffb (7 Oct 2013)

This announcement conjures up images for me of all these staff wienies wandering out into the light and stumbling around the training area. Not really sure what exactly the front-line units are going to with NDHQ types.... Maybe we can have a survivors of NDHQ Btn somewhere?


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## dapaterson (7 Oct 2013)

The reinvestment would be positions, not people: as folks retire, they would not be replaced.

Thus, the 147 Majors in the Basket-weaver trade would see their numbers reduced to 102, and those 45 positions would be converted to front-line Hip-Hop dancers at the Cpl/MCpl rank.  The recruiting system would recruit more Hip-Hop dancers, and all the older Hip-Hop dancers would badmouth the school and talk about the poor quality coming out of CFSHH these days, and how when they were young...


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## FJAG (8 Oct 2013)

Too bad really.

I had visions of six battalions of NDHQ wogs forming up in front of NDHQ and being route marched to Petawawa with colours flying :cdnsalute:  and bands playing iper:

 ;D


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## Journeyman (8 Oct 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The recruiting system would recruit more Hip-Hop dancers...


Just remember this moment when the site is overwhelmed with people wanting to enlist as hip-hop dancers.    :facepalm:


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## dapaterson (8 Oct 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Just remember this moment when the site is overwhelmed with people wanting to enlist as hip-hop dancers.    :facepalm:



Don't worry - they'll get bitter as their VIE is drawing to a close and want to remuster.  To a meaningful trade with real-world qualifications.  Like Twerkers.


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## exgunnertdo (8 Oct 2013)

> Throughout this rebalancing process, Defence will maximize the use of attrition, alternation, and retraining wherever possible.  We will also ensure that all employees are treated with respect and dignity, and fully supported as we transform the institution.



^^that's from the Backgrounder.  I read that as "people who don't want to, will be leaving."  Some of the 4800 will be "rebalanced" via attrition, but not all.   :-\ not good news, that's for sure.


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## Journeyman (8 Oct 2013)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> .....We will also ensure that all employees are treated with respect and dignity, and fully supported ......


Perhaps this change is the 'newsworthy' part of the report?


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## Drag (8 Oct 2013)

I've seen the VCDS direction that kicked off the planning for this dated late last fall, complete with a list of priorities to be resourced.  The goal at the time was about 3000 PYs (Reg F only.) The focus was not increasing the "existing teeth" but resourcing new capabilities (space, cyber, UAVs, etc).  If this is still the case, those envisioning an increase in the establishment of current tactical units will be disappointed.  As well, there was some institutional "re-balancing"  as the biggest single line item was increasing SPHL credits by about 600, as there are currently only 200 SPHL credits and almost 10 times that many pers posted to the JPSUs.


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## dapaterson (8 Oct 2013)

The 3K divestment plan is not linked to the Defence Renewal Initiatives.  While there may be some overlap, the 3K plan was concocted by doing a data crunching exercise, without input from SMEs, driven solely by subject assessments of where certain capabilities in a grossly oversimplified model of defence outputs, where infantrymen with bayonets are viewed as much more important than technicians to maintain their vehicles and equipment or logistics personnel to feed, equip and transport them.  Indeed, no review or consideration of "pointy end" was considered in the review.


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## Dirt Digger (8 Oct 2013)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I had visions of six battalions of NDHQ wogs forming up in front of NDHQ and being route marched to Petawawa with colours flying :cdnsalute:  and bands playing iper:



I have a feeling that the ones that didn't get devoured by the man-eating truck along Wellington would end up lost and somewhere around Brockville.  "I told you to keep the river on your right!"   :


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## jollyjacktar (8 Oct 2013)

All they need is an "FRP" and they'll get alllll the numbers they desire and more.   :nod:


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## George Wallace (8 Oct 2013)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> All the need is an "FRP" and they'll get alllll the numbers they desire and more.   :nod:



Then in ten years NDHQ can send out letters to all, begging them to come back at the same rank and pay.    >


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## DAA (8 Oct 2013)

Quick..........everybody hit the deck.......here comes the pendulum again.......


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## PMedMoe (8 Oct 2013)

No, no!  I _want_ to get hit by the FRP pendulum!   :nod:


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## pbi (9 Oct 2013)

Sigh. :

I'm always suspicious about these endless arguments of "teeth vs tail". If teeth don't have dentists to look after them, they rot and fall out.

The argument is usually presented in such a simplistic, bumper-sticker way that it totally ignores the increased need for  skilled maintainers and other supporters created by even a moderately sophisticated force. And the cuts, when they do come, always seem to end up doing more damage in the long run.

IMHO the normal result of this sort of evolution is usually just fewer people and less capability overall.


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## Navy_Pete (9 Oct 2013)

Ironically they created a high level team at NDHQ to oversee the transition to less 'tail'.  ;D

They started to do this a while ago with DRAP; they haven't been filling many postions at ADM(Mat) as people retire.  You need to have god, buddha and karma on your side to justify replacing someone. It's ridiculous; you lose someone that filled a key role, then end up hiring a contractor at a higher rate to do that work, but because it's a different pot of money, your good.  Or, you do without, and then try and spread the work out amongst a few other folks (that are all at/past retirement age), and hope for the best.  We may have to actually retire an entire class of ships if one or two key folks retire, as they are the only SMEs left on 50 year old kit.

None of this is being done with any real intelligent discussion; as the CAF becomes even more kit dependent, the ratio of maintainers/supporters to soldiers will have to _increase_.  If you want a soldier/sailor/airman kitted out, you need a big support network.  You can do it through ISSC, but that costs more.  All you are doing is paying someone else a premium to do the job.  But again, different colour of beans so no one cares.


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## Remius (9 Oct 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Sigh. :
> 
> I'm always suspicious about these endless arguments of "teeth vs tail". If teeth don't have dentists to look after them, they rot and fall out.
> 
> ...



I can attest to that.  I was brought into the recruiting world when the CF decided we had to increase numbers.  The focus at that time wasn't "teeth" at all.  It was everything else.  Jaw, neck ,muscles and some "tail" to make the teeth work.  Because we had lost so many of those parts that allow the teeth to work, they basically had become a pair of dentures in a jar.


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## Drag (9 Oct 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Sigh. :
> 
> I'm always suspicious about these endless arguments of "teeth vs tail". If teeth don't have dentists to look after them, they rot and fall out.
> 
> ...



+ 1

The best way to cut the budget is to have "more teeth and less tail"  as you will significantly reduce your staff capacity to execute the capital program and to spend NP funds as well.  Ever since we started the manning reductions we have been returning record amount of money from year to year.


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## MP 811 (10 Oct 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No, no!  I _want_ to get hit by the FRP pendulum!   :nod:



I hear the line up spans 5 city blocks now!


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## mad dog 2020 (10 Oct 2013)

I took the 95 FRP, because we had the 20/40 plan and I was going on 40. Enhanced exit and young enough to start over.  The HR advisors at the time convinced someone into the 20/40 and it was a great idea for soldier. Still working a second career and been collecting a pension for 18 yrs. spoke to a recruiter several years back and she said that got kiboshed as a dumb idea!
We have had the teeth and tail discussion for decades. We need soldiers, sailors and airman and they NEED proper support. It is a balance.
But since the early days we have empire building and people are masters at insulating them selves to their inflated importance and we have plenty of areas that shuffles useless paperwork or include themselves a an essential link in a long line of bullshit. 
I worked on several bases and just before CFB Toronto was closed you had people hiding in huge maintained buildings that showed up with shared newspapers and read the Star, Sun The National Post and the Globe, all day and then went home. There were many places like this. On some bases, yes we needed fire fighters (can't remember a real fire in Cornwallis) had a full compliment of civie firefighters who used to sleep all night and go to work in the morning on their other paying job. 
CE was my favourite in Borden a Giant building and it took over 6 weeks to turn a PMQ around. They sat vacant while we paid for a family on full claim to live in a hotel plus meals. I was 71 days with a family of 4 one a new born. $$$$$$$$$$
Oh yeah the $250 cleaning fee when you left the PMQ and then CE worked on it so it wasn't clean when the new people moved in. Still remember the closet door story, truck drops off 2 guys to remove a bedroom door, 5 minutes to pop the hinges and sit on the fronts steps for a pick-up, go back to shop, strip, sand, paint or varnish and repeat trip to install door, approx. $600 parts, and labour. Call Home hardware and get a new door delivered to site $50 (discount customer and pst exempt). Hmmmmmmmm
Couple years ago I got to watch the painters get dropped off at a barracks in Esquimalt and hide all day, I lived in the modular they were working in for over a week and if I worked at the rate I observed, my wife would be on my case. But the coffee pot and fridge in the lounge and smoking area looked used.  
Some of these issues have been streamlined or rectified.
I would suggest that there may be quite a few underutilized staff at NDHQ!  
Leave the workers alone but trim the fat and get someone who can see through the thousands of hours some departments have to document their importance, if they got that much time to do that what is the job they were supposed to be doing in that timeframe?


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