# OCdt Speaks at Freedom Rally



## goldwing (6 Dec 2020)

Anyone recognize this OCdt (officer cadet for you civies)? He just spoke against the government, in uniform, at a freedom rally. Not sure where.
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CId7CO8J-dU/?igshid=brf0dc54ydzm


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## PMedMoe (6 Dec 2020)

WTF is he wearing webbing for??   :facepalm:

Please tell me this is a stolen valour thing and this idiot isn't actually in the CF.

If he is, I hope he gets the boot.


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## dapaterson (6 Dec 2020)

Cap Badge suggests it's a CIC OCdt.


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## PMedMoe (6 Dec 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Cap Badge suggests it's a CIC OCdt.



Yeah, saw that too.  Doesn't matter, boot the asshat.


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## Infanteer (6 Dec 2020)

Can not find a "Leslie Candaressi" (tried spelling it a few ways) on the GAL, so this fellow doesn't even rate DWAN access.  He'll probably be turning in his CADPAT pretty quickly, and I'm sure the webbing was store bought....


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## ballz (6 Dec 2020)

K this one is so cringe that it's pretty funny...

Wish I could be there for his court martial.


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## MilEME09 (6 Dec 2020)

ballz said:
			
		

> K this one is so cringe that it's pretty funny...
> 
> Wish I could be there for his court martial.



Assuming there is one, if he us actually in, so many uniform issues I'd wonder if he is just a case of stolen velour. That said some have pointed out it looks like he is in Toronto. If he is CiC, he won't be for long once the CAF finish the investigation.


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## Nfld Sapper (6 Dec 2020)

Just stuff him in the breach of a howitzer and fire for effect....  ;D


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## goldwing (6 Dec 2020)

Try Lesley Kenderesi


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## Weinie (6 Dec 2020)

Chain of Command is tracking.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Dec 2020)

That's amazing. 

The hunting knife inverted on his webbing was a nice touch.


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## DeweyDecimal (6 Dec 2020)

The cap badge definitely looks like CIC.  But he's also wearing an old-style OCdt slip-on (thin bar, no star).  I think he might have been an active CIC / COATS officer at some point but I doubt he is one now.

ADDED :

I think he likes to play dress-up :

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqNLoifFAcr/


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## Gunplumber (6 Dec 2020)

If he is out how does he still have Cadpat?


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## PMedMoe (6 Dec 2020)

Gunplumber said:
			
		

> If he is out how does he still have Cadpat?



Maybe he's a paintballer.  

You can buy stuff online:

https://www.surplusdarmee.com/us/tags/cadpat/

https://www.royalmilitarysurplus.com/CADPAT-TW_c54.htm


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## MJP (6 Dec 2020)

DeweyDecimal said:
			
		

> The cap badge definitely looks like CIC.  But he's also wearing an old-style OCdt slip-on (thin bar, no star).  I think he might have been an active CIC / COATS officer at some point but I doubt he is one now.
> 
> ADDED :
> 
> ...



Dress up, loves Hungary and casual racism.


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## Gunnar (6 Dec 2020)

> The cap badge definitely looks like CIC.  But he's also wearing an old-style OCdt slip-on (thin bar, no star)



He does mention at some point during his speech that he "joined cadets".  Doesn't explain the out of date slip ons, webbing which we are not issued, helmet which we are not issued.  

I really hope he's merely a Walt.


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## Weinie (6 Dec 2020)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> He does mention at some point during his speech that he "joined cadets".  Doesn't explain the out of date slip ons, webbing which we are not issued, helmet which we are not issued.
> 
> _*I really hope he's merely a Walt.*_



Or as they say in Hungarian..merely a Valt


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## Remius (6 Dec 2020)

He’s too qualified for CSIS...


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## Jarnhamar (6 Dec 2020)

He's _"protecting the police who's protecting the audience"._


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## Kilted (6 Dec 2020)

Apparently he has turned down promotions because the equipment he had wasn't up to standard. I suppose it's possible that some people still wear the old rank on rain jackets, mostly ncm, but the rest of the outfit calls it into question. Is that a black beret?  I was under the impression that CIC were only allowed to wear green.


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## OldSolduer (6 Dec 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> Chain of Command is tracking.



Good. Release him by coffee break tomorrow


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## daftandbarmy (6 Dec 2020)

That '64 pattern belt needs a commendation for holding up under pressure


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## Haggis (6 Dec 2020)

Brutal.  Absolutely brutal.

I expect a CANFORGEN will come from this.


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## ballz (6 Dec 2020)

And yet another DLN course.


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## MilEME09 (6 Dec 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Brutal.  Absolutely brutal.
> 
> I expect a CANFORGEN will come from this.



If he is even a member to begin with. If he isn't, I expect criminal code charges and a press release stating that he isn't currently a member of the CAF.


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## Kilted (6 Dec 2020)

I found his FaceBook, it hasn't been updated since 2016.  Nothing about the military, just a bunch of stuff about Hungary and blaming the Jews for various things.  If this guy is a member, there was already a bunch of things to bring to the attention of the C-of-C before this.


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## brihard (6 Dec 2020)

Can you pm me the link?

CIC cap badge I think. I’m curious if he’s actually CAF.


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## Nfld Sapper (6 Dec 2020)

I doubt that asshat has any service history....rambo knife straped to the webbing, can't see a flag on the shoulder either....


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## goldwing (6 Dec 2020)

He is on Facebook as Laszlo Kenderesi and Lesley Kenderesi.


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## goldwing (6 Dec 2020)

He has a Hungarian flag on his helmet


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Dec 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's amazing.
> 
> The hunting knife inverted on his webbing was a nice touch.



I liked the _Saving Private Ryan_ era helmet...


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## The Bread Guy (6 Dec 2020)

No Hel Like Tac Hel said:
			
		

> He is on Facebook as Laszlo Kenderesi and Lesley Kenderesi.


Didn't take long for someone to reply to even an old FB post ....


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## Lumber (6 Dec 2020)

If you're going to fake it, why choose OCdt?


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## Harris (6 Dec 2020)

Sounds more believable than Maj Gen.   :rofl:


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## MilEME09 (6 Dec 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> If you're going to fake it, why choose OCdt?



Who's going to question a OCdt doing dumb shit? Goes with the territory.


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Dec 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I liked the _Saving Private Ryan_ era helmet...



Hey that's my era helmet.....

Try washing and shaving in your new fangled helmets.

If Dumbass is a CIC officer, then he holds a Commission and is in doo-doo


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## Haggis (6 Dec 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> If Dumbass is a CIC officer, then he holds a Commission and is in doo-doo.


My money is on former CIC/COATS member and substantive Walt.


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## Kilted (6 Dec 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Try washing and shaving in your new fangled helmets.
> 
> If Dumbass is a CIC officer, then he holds a Commission and is in doo-doo



I don't have to shave, they let me have a beard.  He wouldn't hold a commission if he's an officer cadet.


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## Stoker (6 Dec 2020)

Apparently he was RTU'd twice from BOTC and released a few years ago.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Dec 2020)

Retired RCN said:
			
		

> Apparently he was RTU'd twice from BOTC and released a few years ago.



 :rofl:


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## FJAG (6 Dec 2020)

Retired RCN said:
			
		

> Apparently he was RTU'd twice from BOTC and released a few years ago.



If we're lucky, the paperwork for his release won't have gone through yet because he failed to turn in his uniform.  ;D

 :cheers:


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## brihard (7 Dec 2020)

Retired RCN said:
			
		

> Apparently he was RTU'd twice from BOTC and released a few years ago.



Glorious if true. How solid is the source on this?


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## Infanteer (7 Dec 2020)

If true, what are the odds this guy gets charged with Sec 419 of the Criminal Code?


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## medicineman (7 Dec 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> That '64 pattern belt needs a commendation for holding up under pressure



Was an '82 pattern belt with suspenders...with a KBar taped to it  :.

MM


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## Mister Donut (7 Dec 2020)

https://www.facebook.com/arthur.michalski.3/posts/10164901358275284

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhQyvFj0ZfQ&t=1s

https://www.facebook.com/thegarbagesweep/photos/a.1000859947034362/1077847936002229/


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## goldwing (7 Dec 2020)

New video https://youtu.be/1CZf2caYosg


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## goldwing (7 Dec 2020)

Fake? OCdt (Officer Cadet) Lesley (Laszlo) Kenderesi with the Canadian military denounces federal government while in uniform at a protest in Toronto. (YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!)  IS HE REAL? YOU BE THE JUDGE  -He is wearing a CIC (Cadet Instructor Cadre) cap badge with no mention of him being CIC. He also has the CIC branch flag behind his cap badge which is not allowed.  -currently on medical leave but with over 25 years in the Canadian Forces (CF) and he is only a OCdt (WTF)? -wearing webbing no longer issued to the CF -CF do not wear knives, they carry bayonets which are not carried where he is carrying his knife -has a helmet with him that is no longer issued to the CF. The helmet also has the Hungarian Flag on it which is not allowed. -no other unit/division identifiers on his uniform.  From this video: -currently on medical leave -he has been in the military since coming to Canada in 1974 (with 25 years of service and this being 2020, this would mean he joined the military in 1995, not 1974) -around 1974, he joined 246 Air Cadet Sqn -in 1978, he joined the Governor General Horse Guards as a tank crewman -in 1984, he joined the (?) Royal Regiment til 2006 -he then transferred back to the GGHG til present -qualified chemical and biological warfare -licence to drive tanks and cars -from machine gun courses to all weapons -he has over 25 years of military experience -hand to hand combat -applied to work as a CSIS guy but was overqualified


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## Cloud Cover (7 Dec 2020)

Anybody’s moron will do. Sigh.


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## Kat Stevens (7 Dec 2020)

Holy batfuck, man. This outfit is wacky in the wicky woo. Qualified to drive both cars _*and*_ tanks? My hero.


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## DeweyDecimal (7 Dec 2020)

No Hel Like Tac Hel said:
			
		

> He also has the CIC branch flag behind his cap badge which is not allowed.



It's actually a Guards flash which would be consistent with prior service with the GGHG.  The CIC badge is really outdated and combined with the outdated rank slide, I'm pretty certain, unfortunately,  that he was a CIC Officer at some point but at the very least 5 or 6 years ago.


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## goldwing (7 Dec 2020)

I stand corrected on the flag behind the cap badge. But you cannot wear that flag their while you are still serving (he states he is) and you can only wear the flag if you are a member of the GGHG Association


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## Stoker (7 Dec 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Glorious if true. How solid is the source on this?
> [/quote
> 
> From people claiming he was their BOTC. Serial # 13403


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## ArmyRick (7 Dec 2020)

this SS is going to be interesting to watch unfold.


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## ArmyRick (7 Dec 2020)

He looks as hard as rice pudding. Oh wait, where is the tan beret?


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## Jarnhamar (7 Dec 2020)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> this SS is going to be interesting to watch unfold.



I suspect he will quickly throw out a mental illness defense. 


Kinda funny thinking about the protest he's at and the ring leaders. I bet they were thinking they scored a jackpot with this guy. Little awkward he's a laughing stock of the entire military. Probably kids playing call of duty too.


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## Good2Golf (7 Dec 2020)

The scrim looks classic PRes. I’ve never seen a RegF soldier wear scrim like that...ever.


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## Underway (7 Dec 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The scrim looks classic PRes. I’ve never seen a RegF soldier wear scrim like that...ever.



I think it's established that he's not even in (the hunting knife is a good indicator, as is the lack of maple leaves on the shoulder, as is the Vietnam era helmet and the Hungary flag on it).  Not sure where the RegF/PRes salt is coming from...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Dec 2020)

You can be whatever you want at the surplus store....


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## NavyShooter (7 Dec 2020)

The memes that are showing up today are....glorious....this guy is getting roasted to pieces.


Deservedly so.


NS


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## sarahsmom (7 Dec 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Can not find a "Leslie Candaressi" (tried spelling it a few ways) on the GAL, so this fellow doesn't even rate DWAN access.  He'll probably be turning in his CADPAT pretty quickly, and I'm sure the webbing was store bought....



According to his Facebook page it's "Laszlo Kenderesi" and it looks like he was Hungarian military maybe before coming to Canada...


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## Michael OLeary (7 Dec 2020)

Looks like Frank Gervais' six-year run as the poster child of CAF walting has come to an end.


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## Remius (7 Dec 2020)

No Hel Like Tac Hel said:
			
		

> I stand corrected on the flag behind the cap badge. But you cannot wear that flag their while you are still serving (he states he is) and you can only wear the flag if you are a member of the GGHG Association



No.  It%u2019s worn by active GGHG, CGG and GGFG.  Not sure if the cadets wear it though. 

Edit: just saw some GGHG cadet pics online.  They wear the patch as well.


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## dimsum (7 Dec 2020)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Looks like Frank Gervais' six-year run as the poster child of CAF walting has come to an end.



That was a good run.


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## Remius (7 Dec 2020)

Oldest Ocdt in NATO...

LOL.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Dec 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I suspect he will quickly throw out a mental illness defense.
> 
> 
> Kinda funny thinking about the protest he's at and the ring leaders. I bet they were thinking they scored a jackpot with this guy. Little awkward he's a laughing stock of the entire military. Probably kids playing call of duty too.



This is an important subject for discussion on the CAF Recruiting/ Brand Thread, no?


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## bbrrrr (7 Dec 2020)

paleomedic said:
			
		

> According to his Facebook page it's "Laszlo Kenderesi" and it looks like he was Hungarian military maybe before coming to Canada...



If you look at 'Lesley Kenderesi's' Facebook page 'Laszlo Kenderesi is a friend...maybe brother? Just my thoughts


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## PMedMoe (7 Dec 2020)

bbrrrr said:
			
		

> If you look at 'Lesley Kenderesi's' Facebook page 'Laszlo Kenderesi is a friend...maybe brother? Just my thoughts



I doubt it.  Two profiles, same person.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Dec 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Hey that's my era helmet.....
> 
> Try washing and shaving in your new fangled helmets.
> 
> If Dumbass is a CIC officer, then he holds a Commission and is in doo-doo



<cough, cough>, A wee bit off topic, but on behalf of one or two of us:







I don't know who that MacKay fellow was, but my first helmet was cleaner and that little brass thingy at the top was shone.


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## reccecrewman (7 Dec 2020)

Evidently, he likes to play dress up. Found this circulating online this morning. Looks like a real winner. Has some pretty sweet hero pics on his Facebook profile of Laszlo Kenderesi.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Dec 2020)

Are you freakin kidding me...outside a court house dressed, and carrying, like that??


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## mariomike (7 Dec 2020)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> <cough, cough>, A wee bit off topic, but on behalf of one or two of us:



134 Company issued us that type when I joined.


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## Cloud Cover (7 Dec 2020)

Search warrant please.


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## brihard (7 Dec 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Search warrant please.



This would be a fun and probably pretty easy file.


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## Good2Golf (7 Dec 2020)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Are you freakin kidding me...outside a court house dressed, and carrying, like that??



Well...he at least has decent trigger discipline.


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## Old Sweat (7 Dec 2020)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Evidently, he likes to play dress up. Found this circulating online this morning. Looks like a real winner. Has some pretty sweet hero pics on his Facebook profile of Laszlo Kenderesi.



A walking poster for gun control.


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## dapaterson (7 Dec 2020)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> A walking poster for gun control.


And birth control.


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## blacktriangle (7 Dec 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And birth control.



Sums up Bradford, ON pretty well I think.  ;D

Must have been dress up night at the VI.


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## FormerHorseGuard (7 Dec 2020)

wow. some people are foaming at the mouth at various HQs across Canada. Who does that in uniform and plays dress up. Does not speak for this former GGHG.


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## Weinie (7 Dec 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And birth control.



And mind control


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## Jarnhamar (7 Dec 2020)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Are you freakin kidding me...outside a court house dressed, and carrying, like that??



If you can't trust an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces who _can_ you trust?  ;D


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## Cloud Cover (7 Dec 2020)

At the minimum the police might consider done a wellness check, the shit storm he has caused could well unhinge him to the next step.


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## Mister Donut (7 Dec 2020)

He's probably already already coming apart at the seams.


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## NavyShooter (7 Dec 2020)

The Canadian Firearms Center has a 24/7 phone number to raise violence, spousal, or other concerns about Canadian Firearms Owners - 1-800-731-4000.  Red flag laws exist already here - and based on that photo, this guy obviously doesn't have the common sense to be in public, let alone own guns.

I'm wondering if someone's called him in yet for this...

NS


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Dec 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The scrim looks classic PRes. I’ve never seen a RegF soldier wear scrim like that...ever.



Well...so much for OPSEC.  Now everyone will know which one of these guys (or gals, possibly...don't want to assume anyone's gender...) is on a Class C contract!!    ;D

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianForces/photos/pcb.3074391422788039/3074391229454725

* not sure why the center-Cdn is cryin' but...someone wanna check on that troop?


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## Stoker (8 Dec 2020)

We'll it appears that the member is still in and a serving member of the CIC. He is being investigated.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Dec 2020)

Retired RCN said:
			
		

> We'll it appears that the member is still in



_Awesome._


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## ArmyRick (8 Dec 2020)

op:  I will sell front row tickets to his court martial!


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## brihard (8 Dec 2020)

AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, this clown is actually in? This is too good to be true. This CM is gonna be glorious. He’s gonna get SMOKED.


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## Mister Donut (8 Dec 2020)

Le Bouthillier did not have information on how long the investigation into Kenderesi’s comments would take.  “We are investigating thoroughly to ensure the most appropriate action is taken,” Le Bouthillier added. “These actions can include various measures up to and including release from the armed forces.”

Up to and including release....does not appear that they can/will do anything besides 2A ing him?


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## X Royal (8 Dec 2020)

My guess is as a Cadet officer the fact that he's not on the pay roll at the time may help some in his defence. 
Notice I said some!
Still will have some troubles.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Dec 2020)

Sidebar: Are reserve and regular force members supposed to salute CIC officers?
Do they commission after their 2 week course?


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## Mister Donut (8 Dec 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sidebar: Are reserve and regular force members supposed to salute CIC officers?
> Do they commission after their 2 week course?



I've been told to salute them.


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## Kilted (8 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> My guess is as a Cadet officer the fact that he's not on the pay roll at the time may helps some in his defence.
> Notice I said some!
> Still will have some troubles.



He was in uniform, even with some of the inappropriate items, so it wouldn't matter the last time he signed in.  I wonder if this is someone who should have been 5F'd years ago for NES.


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## brihard (8 Dec 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> He was in uniform, even with some of the inappropriate items, so it wouldn't matter the last time he signed in.  I wonder if this is someone who should have been 5F'd years ago for NES.



Yup, if he’s still enrolled, donning the uniform subjects him to the Code of Service Discipline.


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## dangerboy (8 Dec 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yup, if he’s still enrolled, donning the uniform subjects him to the Code of Service Discipline.



Just to expand:

Section 60 of the National Defence Act provides:

“60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

(a) an officer or non-commissioned member of the regular force;

(b) an officer or non-commissioned member of the special force;

(c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

(i) undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,

(ii) in uniform,

(iii) on duty,


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## Scott (8 Dec 2020)

I thought 2020 was pretty rad with wolves already.

Mister totally blackercatted that.


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## Haggis (8 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> My guess is as a Cadet officer the fact that he's not on the pay roll at the time may helps some in his defence.



NDA S. 60 (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

(a) an officer or non-commissioned member of the regular force;

(b) an officer or non-commissioned member of the special force;

(c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the *reserve force* when the officer or non-commissioned member is

(i) undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,

(ii) *in uniform,*

There's more but this is the relevant part.

Even if his uniform looks like he mugged Captain Obvious to get it, he's still identifiable and identifying as a CAF member.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sidebar: Are reserve and regular force members supposed to salute CIC officers?


  Yes. The CIC are a subcomponent of the Reserve Force and a cursory search through the courts martial results shows a fair share of them do the hatless dance.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do they commission after their 2 week course?



They hold the same commission as I do.  :


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## FJAG (8 Dec 2020)

> QR&O
> 
> 2.034 Reserve Force - Sub-components
> The sub-components of the Reserve Force are:
> ...


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## Blackadder1916 (8 Dec 2020)

> QR&O
> 
> 2.034 Reserve Force - Sub-components
> The sub-components of the Reserve Force are:
> ...



This is, for me, the scary part.  Somehow, this numpty has been permitted to influence children.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Dec 2020)

No doubt this will be considered, at least as a discussion point with him:



> 103.14 – OFFENCES RELATED TO MUTINY
> (1) Section 81 of the National Defence Act provides:
> 
> “81. Every person who
> ...



https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/queens-regulations-orders/vol-2-disciplinary/ch-103-service-offences.html#cha-103-14


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## dapaterson (8 Dec 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> They hold the same commission as I do.  :



Yes, but they completed a formal course for it, not given it as a "long service, stop hanging around the WO and Sgt Mess" thing.


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## Haggis (8 Dec 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Yes, but they completed a formal course for it, not given it as a "long service, stop hanging around the WO and Sgt Mess" thing.



Ouch!


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## FJAG (8 Dec 2020)

op:


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## MilEME09 (8 Dec 2020)

DND has made a statement confirming he is a CIC member, and that an investigation into his conduct is now ongoing.


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## Lumber (8 Dec 2020)

If you're going to fake it, why choose OCdt?


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## Weinie (8 Dec 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> If you're going to fake it, _*why choose OCdt?*_



He didn't choose OCdt, the merit system chose that.  :nod:


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## Remius (8 Dec 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> If you're going to fake it, why choose OCdt?



Why not?  Frank Gervais got outed for wearing a maroon beret and a pathfinder badge.  Now the beard and other things also gave it away.  But a low or average rank, a logistics cap badge with no regimental affiliation and maybe a CD or some commemorative medal, it won’t attract a lot of attention other than from those who might not know better.


This guy is clearly not a Walt now that we have more info,  just a moron.


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## brihard (8 Dec 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> This guy is clearly not a Walt now that we have more info,  just a moron.



Whoah, whoah, whoah. You’ll show the Moron King proper deference and respect.


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## Underway (8 Dec 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> DND has made a statement confirming he is a CIC member, and that an investigation into his conduct is now ongoing.



This guy would have had to lie through his teeth to get accepted as a CIC given what I know of the process.  I'm not saying bad eggs don't get in. But there is one more thing you can get him on.  5F release for lying on his enrollment documents.


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## Nuggs (8 Dec 2020)

Apparently he likes to play dress up.

https://youtu.be/VxjyLrOi4ZI


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## Remius (8 Dec 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Whoah, whoah, whoah. You’ll show the Moron King proper deference and respect.



Sorry.  I should have said His Majesty.


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## Maxadia (8 Dec 2020)

So just a thought.....kind of on the fence here:

If you were in a position to be an assisting officer, do you take it for the front row seat or watch from the audience?  ;D


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## dimsum (8 Dec 2020)

Nuggs said:
			
		

> Apparently he likes to play dress up.
> 
> https://youtu.be/VxjyLrOi4ZI



I have no idea what the flags are and such, but given that he's had pictures of Hungarian uniform kit, I'm thinking that may be Hungarian cultural dress.  

If so, and he's Hungarian, I'm willing to give a pass on that one.


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## GR66 (8 Dec 2020)

reveng said:
			
		

> Sums up Bradford, ON pretty well I think.  ;D
> 
> Must have been dress up night at the VI.



LOL

Almost swallowed my tongue on that one!

Wouldn't be the strangest thing I've seen hanging outside the VI.  Not by a long shot!

 :rofl:


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## X Royal (8 Dec 2020)

But with his uniform being so screwed up could it be proven he was in uniform?
My guess is for easy legal reasons a quick voluntarily release will be the simplest solution.


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## SeaKingTacco (8 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> But with his uniform being so screwed up could it be proven he was in uniform?
> My guess is for easy legal reasons a quick voluntarily release will be the simplest solution.



Oh no, what fun would there be in that?

This is one of those cases where “general deterence” becomes the over-riding concern.

Bring on the Court Martial, please.


----------



## brihard (8 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> But with his uniform being so screwed up could it be proven he was in uniform?
> My guess is for easy legal reasons a quick voluntarily release will be the simplest solution.



The uniform itself wasn’t that screwed up, he just threw more crap on over it. Other than an older style CIC cap badge and an unauthorized Guards patch, he appears to have been in pretty much authorized CADPAT dress. I suspect it would be determined that the combats he was wearing were issued to him. He was also specifically identified as a CAF member and even vocalized that he knew he would probably hget in trouble for what he was doing.

I would say let defense counsel try to quibble that point at a CM.


----------



## Kilted (8 Dec 2020)

I suppose we don't know which corps he belonged to, which is probably a good thing for them.  I'm wondering if he was in a GGHG cadet corps and somehow "acquired" the beret that way.


----------



## X Royal (8 Dec 2020)

SeaKingTacco I hope your right but the path of least resistance will most likely be taken.
I can see the argument "If I showed up on parade like that I would have been charged for being out of uniform".
How can it be argued both ways, that now he was in uniform as nothing he was wearing was uniform with regulations?


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> SeaKingTacco I hope your right but the path of least resistance will most likely be taken.
> I can see the argument "If I showed up on parade like that I would have been charged for being out of uniform".
> How can it be argued both ways, that now he was in uniform as nothing he was wearing was uniform with regulations?



Because he identified as a CAF member, as by being in cadpat, was acting in the capacity of a uniformed member of the CAF, and can be charged. The CAF has made it very clear lately that being class A doesn't exempt you from being punished for doing dumb shit.


----------



## Maxadia (8 Dec 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Because he identified as a CAF member, as by being in cadpat, was acting in the capacity of a uniformed member of the CAF, and can be charged. The CAF has made it very clear lately that being class A doesn't exempt you from being punished for doing dumb crap.



Typically covered in a Media Awareness brief.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> SeaKingTacco I hope your right but the path of least resistance will most likely be taken.
> I can see the argument "If I showed up on parade like that I would have been charged for being out of uniform".
> How can it be argued both ways, that now he was in uniform as nothing he was wearing was uniform with regulations?



Unauthorized mixed dress. 
I find it very hard to believe, even with our ridiculous justice system, anyone would buy he wasn't" in uniform".


----------



## ballz (9 Dec 2020)

Kinda sobering to see the crazies on social media lining up behind this guy.....


----------



## Mister Donut (9 Dec 2020)

ballz said:
			
		

> Kinda sobering to see the crazies on social media lining up behind this guy.....



I find it unsettling that people are calling him a patriot.


----------



## Haggis (9 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> My guess is for easy legal reasons a quick voluntarily release will be the simplest solution.



Although he may request a voluntary release in order to avoid the consequences of his celebrity coming out, the CAF does not have to grant his request. He could be kept around, charged, found guilty and then compulsorily released as a result "pour encourager les autres".


----------



## Infanteer (9 Dec 2020)

ballz said:
			
		

> Kinda sobering to see the crazies on social media lining up behind this guy.....



It continues to amaze me that a crowd that is so "skeptical" of things like mainstream media, government programs, and science can, at the same time, so readily accept miscellaneous theories and will willingly accept a fool with his cadet instructor rank and obsolete webbing on as some sort of sign of the truth and need for resistance.

Cognitive dissonance...ain't it great?


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> ... How can it be argued both ways, that now he was in uniform as nothing he was wearing was uniform with regulations?


Being subject to the military's rules when you do something is separate from wearing the uniform wrong - as this guy shows, one can do both at the same time.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Dec 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It continues to amaze me that a crowd that is so "skeptical" of things like mainstream media, government programs, and science can, at the same time, so readily accept miscellaneous theories ...


Yup ...

Beaverton, 4 days ago:  _*"Conservative Party slams Trudeau for not doing enough to combat anti-vaxxers in Conservative Party"*_
The Canadian Press, 2 days ago:  _*"Conservative MP Derek Sloan’s anti-vaccine petition a symptom of Liberal failings: Erin O’Toole"*_
[*]More from The Canadian Press, 2 days ago:  [url=https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/erin-otoole-anti-vaccine-petition_ca_5fceb4f5c5b6787f2a9a3d45]_*"O’Toole Disagrees With Anti-Vaccine Petition Sponsored By Conservative MP"*_


----------



## NavyShooter (9 Dec 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Although he may request a voluntary release in order to avoid the consequences of his celebrity coming out, the CAF does not have to grant his request. He could be kept around, charged, found guilty and then compulsorily released as a result "pour encourager les autres".




I think that there may need to be some 'encouragement' on this.


I recall a Lt(N) who was investigated once upon a time.  They held up his release while they sent a pair of investigators from Ottawa to Halifax to question some of us who witnessed things...as I recall, his 'smooth transition' to the CCG was not as smooth as he'd hoped it would be.  They hung onto him for an extra 6 months after his desired release date and then his article of release was....undesirable...for future employment options.


This guy?  While his uniform might be all kinds of bat-$h&t stupid (knife, helmet, webbing, etc) his actions and words clearly indicate that he knowingly did what he did, and there needs to be some consequence to this.  


I mean, sharing a 'Stupid Prime Minister' meme on facebook is one thing...but this is...a whole different kettle of fish.  


Hang onto him, investigate, charge as appropriate, march in the guilty bastage to a formal Court Martial (delay a couple of others so that this is done ASAP if you have to) send for whatever punishment the court decides, then during the period of punishment, process the Admin Review and release him on completion.  Anything less will be a failure by the military justice system.


NS


----------



## ModlrMike (9 Dec 2020)

Release does not make you immune to prosecution. There are any number of cases where a member released only to be subject to CM afterwards. Depending on which infractions this member might be charged with, I think CM is the only outcome. I pity whoever is doing the UDI, and the JAG staff who have to address this.

Of course if they could encourage him to 4c and fade to anonymity... but his recent events make that unlikely.


----------



## dimsum (9 Dec 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It continues to amaze me that a crowd that is so "skeptical" of things like mainstream media, government programs, and science can, at the same time, so readily accept miscellaneous theories and will willingly accept a fool with his cadet instructor rank and obsolete webbing on as some sort of sign of the truth and need for resistance.
> 
> Cognitive dissonance...ain't it great?



Those folks also probably don't know that he is CIC and is wearing obsolete webbing.  They see "person in camouflage and military hat" and assume he's speaking for the CAF.


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Dec 2020)

At least he was not a member of the Legion of Frontiersmen.


----------



## CBH99 (9 Dec 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It continues to amaze me that a crowd that is so "skeptical" of things like mainstream media, government programs, and science can, at the same time, so readily accept miscellaneous theories and will willingly accept a fool with his cadet instructor rank and obsolete webbing on as some sort of sign of the truth and need for resistance.
> 
> Cognitive dissonance...ain't it great?




I totally agree with you Infanteer.

Just to add...it continues to amaze me (although it shouldn't at this point) that nobody in that crowd was smart enough to think "Hey, if the military were to make any sort of statement about this, it would be in a press briefing or public release.  Not one dude driving an old Iltis in a parade."


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (9 Dec 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It continues to amaze me that a crowd that is so "skeptical" of things like mainstream media, government programs, and science can, at the same time, so readily accept miscellaneous theories and will willingly accept a fool with his cadet instructor rank and obsolete webbing on as some sort of sign of the truth and need for resistance.
> 
> Cognitive dissonance...ain't it great?



In my experience, the vast majority of Canadian are completely ignorant of anything military related and have no clue whatsoever. I bet the average Canadian doesn't even know what an Office Cadet is or realize how lowly/unimportant that rank is.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Dec 2020)

Twitter needs to be informed this guy could be a government plant who's talking trash about op vector to draw out supporters and identify them. Once anti lock down supporters are properly catologued _OP Vector_ turns into _OP Velociraptor_ and the truth behind why an Afghanistan era war general is involved...


----------



## ModlrMike (9 Dec 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> In my experience, the vast majority of Canadian are completely ignorant of anything military related and have no clue whatsoever. I bet the average Canadian doesn't even know what an Office Cadet is or realize how lowly/unimportant that rank is.



To quote Charles Laughton from 1935's Mutiny on the Bounty:

A seaman's a seaman, a captain's a captain. And a midshipman is the lowest form of animal life in the British navy.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> My guess is as a Cadet officer the fact that he's not on the pay roll at the time may help some in his defence.
> Notice I said some!
> Still will have some troubles.




102.01 – PERSONS SUBJECT TO THE CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE was covered several times...


Also:  QR & O, Vol 1, Art 1.02 Definitions

“officer” means

(a) a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,

(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and

(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces;

(officier)*

op:

* I should have scrolled down before replying.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (9 Dec 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> To quote Charles Laughton from 1935's Mutiny on the Bounty:
> 
> A seaman's a seaman, a captain's a captain. And a midshipman is the lowest form of animal life in the British navy.



My own CO told me something to the effect of: "you are now only slightly above the slugs that slither along the bottom of the ocean" when I was a freshly-minted OCdt.

Usually "stolen valour" types pretend to be a rank that actually means something. Sounds like this guy actually was (or is? shudder) an actual OCdt with the Cadet Instructor Cadre. No surprise he never got commissioned from what little I've seen of him, but I'm shocked he was able to make it through the application process. It is fairly rigorous (as it should be).


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sidebar: Are reserve and regular force members supposed to salute CIC officers?
> Do they commission after their 2 week course?



Yup.  As CIC Officers are part of the Reserve Force, all the stuff in CFP 201, Ch 1, Sect 2, Para's 3, 9, 10 etc applies.  

** again, I should have scrolled down.  I'll learn..someday.




Maybe.


My wife says "_probably not_", though...


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Dec 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I totally agree with you Infanteer.
> 
> Just to add...it continues to amaze me (although it shouldn't at this point) that nobody in that crowd was smart enough to think "Hey, if the military were to make any sort of statement about this, it would be in a press briefing or public release.  Not one dude driving an old Iltis in a parade."



Confirmation bias.


----------



## Gunnar (9 Dec 2020)

> Sidebar: Are reserve and regular force members supposed to salute CIC officers?
> Do they commission after their 2 week course?



The way I look at it, is you salute the officer, not necessarily the man.  Our employer has commissioned CIC members officers, so they are officers.  Respect for an officer in their defined role is never misplaced.  I can understand why someone on the pointy end might not want to salute the leader of a youth organization, but my understanding and sometimes sympathy isn't really at issue.  *Nor need it come up unless one or both of us are being jerks.*  It's not like we cross paths much.  I won't pretend knowledge of handling a GPMG, and you won't tell me about cadet activities.   But we will pay appropriate compliments because that is who we are.

On a related note, and judging from military members I  have met in recruiting stations (I know), CAF members are invariably polite to civilians as well.  I have always been addressed as Sir by members not directly involved in my case processing.  Unfailingly polite treatment by any military member to any other human being can only reflect well on the member themselves and the organization of which they are part.  To my mind, anything less would seem to imply a lack of discipline.

And if we want to discuss this further, we should probably split it outta this thread.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> The way I look at it, is you salute the officer Commission, not necessarily the man Officer.



FTFY.

Also;  not all CAF members, including Officers, are "men".


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> *Nor need it come up unless one or both of us are being jerks.*  It's not like we cross paths much.  I won't pretend knowledge of handling a GPMG, and you won't tell me about cadet activities.   But we will pay appropriate compliments because that is who we are.



Short story.

It's 20-some years ago, my PRes days.  Our recce sqn is doing a gun camp weekend in Aldershot, NS.  We're waiting for the MLs or something to take us to the range, waiting around close to the old Black Watch Parade Square, those old bldg that were there.  Our SSM (a former CSM from 2 RCR), is passing on some wisdom to the Sqn about range "stuff".  OC D (a Major) is standing off to the side a little, with the BC.  

Army Cadets are also on the Camp this weekend.  A group goes by, lead by a CIC Capt...who isn't happy that that said SSM doesn't salute her.  Cadet group carries on under their Cadet NCO.  CIC Capt wheels about and proceeds to start to (attempt to) jack-up the Sgt-Major;  in front of the Sqn.  

It didn't work out so well, for the Capt, and I distinctly remember the color in her face drain at the point the SSM said "and are you BLIND or something...do you not see the Major standing right there, and like me he is probably @*_)(@#@ wondering why you aren't saluting HIM!".  The last thing I remember, as the CIC Capt scurried away (after saluting the OC) was the SSM yelling in chase "...AND DON'T YOU EVER @#&(*@*#@_(#@ TALK TO ME WHEN I'M ADDRESSING MY @#*(*#@(#@@ TROOPS AGAIN!!!!!!!".

No matter how old I'll get...I'll ALWAYS remember the look on the Sgt-Major's face when the realization came to him that this CIC Capt was going to try to jack him up in front of the Sqn.   ;D


----------



## Gunnar (9 Dec 2020)

> The way I look at it, is you salute the officer Commission, not necessarily the man Officer.
> 
> FTFY.



Tomato/tomahto.  Without a commission, there is no officer.



> Also;  not all CAF members, including Officers, are "men".



True.  And not all frozen desserts are ice cream.  But do you know anyone other than McDonald's Corporate who says "Iced Milk"?


----------



## stealthylizard (9 Dec 2020)

You wouldn't salute an officer cadet anyways, they have not yet been commissioned.  They are theoretically below the rank of private as it was explained to me during BMQ, but they should still be given the respect due to an officer as they will become your superior when they finish BMOQ.

I'm sure that I will be corrected by someone for this view.


----------



## Gunnar (9 Dec 2020)

Too true.  We are the lowest form of life.  For now.  It's the "for now" part that gets us the occasional mis-delivered salute.  

Someone used to have the tag line here:  "When you Commission something, you're putting it into service. When you Warrant something, you're saying it will work".  Or words to that effect.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 Dec 2020)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> Tomato/tomahto.  Without a commission, there is no officer.
> 
> True.  And not all frozen desserts are ice cream.  But do you know anyone other than McDonald's Corporate who says "Iced Milk"?



Really? This kind of reply isn't helping, and probably a scenario where that 'unfailing politeness' may slip.  It's not tomato/tomahto, as Ships are also commissioned, and also get saluted for the same reason.

Marks of respect are paid to the person holding the commission on behalf of the Monarch (or head of state). You should probably take a read of the commissioning scroll. That authority has been delegated down to you (via the Gov General, who is the Queen's rep in Canada). So you are saluting someone in a show of respect to the Queen and the institution, not the individual/unit/inanimate carbon rod holding a commission. It can really make it easier once you understand the distinction, because some officers don't really rate the use of the available oxygen in the room, let alone any kind of marks of respect to the individual.

Your second reply is the same kind of stupid that means I have to take time out of my day to attend a briefing to reinforce that words matter, even if I'm already converted over to that viewpoint, because the vocal minority of idiots put a bunch of really stupid things in a survey by responding like a bunch of cavemen in proposed name change to a rank. You should deconflict yourself and drop the attitude.


----------



## Weinie (9 Dec 2020)

Doesn't matter what you wear on your shoulder, it's what's between the ears that counts.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Dec 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter what you wear on your shoulder, it's what's between the ears that counts.



If that were true (in practice) we wouldn't have an inflated rank structure just so that xxxx is required because some other country has an xxxx level at that job.

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone being insulted behind the scenes for "just being a Cpl."


----------



## Blackadder1916 (9 Dec 2020)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> . . .   They are theoretically below the rank of private as it was explained to me during BMQ . . .



Then whomever provided such an explanation didn't know what they are talking about.

Some definitions from QRs


> “officer” means
> 
> (a) a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,
> 
> (b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and





> “superior officer” means any officer or non-commissioned member who, in relation to any other officer or non-commissioned member, is by the National Defence Act, or by regulations or custom of the service, authorized to give a lawful command to that other officer or non-commissioned member; (supérieur)*



https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/queens-regulations-orders/vol-1-administration/ch-3-rank-seniority-command-precedence.html


> 3.09 – ORDER OF SENIORITY
> 
> (1) An officer takes seniority over all non-commissioned members.



There is nothing "theoretical" (as the ignoramus who instructed you on BMQ used the term) about the legal authority of OCdts or about how that authority may be used.  It's only when the players in the game don't know the rules or decide that they want to be an a**hole and disregard the "regulations or custom of the service" that problems arise.  Are OCdts permit to roam free to randomly issue orders to all and sundry NCMs?  No, not usually, but that's because in the normal course of events OCdts are usually in training environments where "by regulation and custom of the service" they are subject to the authority of instructional staff, including NCOs and WOs.  However, circumstances can place an OCdt in a situation where they are the senior (usually only) officer present and thus they may have command over all NCMs present (up to and including CWO) - of course how they exercise that command would be the hallmark between a good future commissioned officer and one that becomes the hapless subject of an anecdote repeated in the mess.

I'm aware of numerous times when OCdts have been in charge simply because they were the senior rank present, sometimes by happenstance and sometimes because they were designated by a superior officer to take command of that element.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> Tomato/tomahto.  Without a commission, there is no officer.



 8)

Are you sure about that?  

https://army.ca/forums/threads/133368/post-1638650.html#msg1638650

I made the important parts yellow...so they stand out for you.  Don't forget to read (a) of the definition as well...

I'm here all night and starting Christmas Leave soon, if you're inclined to continue some more informal PD.


----------



## Weinie (9 Dec 2020)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If that were true (in practice) we wouldn't have an inflated rank structure just so that xxxx is required because some other country has an xxxx level at that job.
> 
> If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone being insulted behind the scenes for "just being a Cpl."



As a former "just a Cpl." I never heard it once. My tech opinions/recommendations were valued, and followed, by Sr NCM's and/or Officers. Maybe I had a charmed early career. I have met Jr and Sr NCM's that were idiots, and others who were superior tradesmen and leaders; the same can be said for the Officers I worked with/encountered. After 37 + years of doing this, I respect rank as it applies, but I do not apply competency to rank.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> "just a Cpl."



I've actually heard the term used before; up to, and including, the rank of WO.


----------



## Weinie (9 Dec 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I've actually heard the term used before; up to, and including, the rank of WO.


I am not saying it wasn't used, I am saying that I never encountered it. My point being that rank does not/not equal competency.


----------



## Cloud Cover (9 Dec 2020)

Exactly! This is why we have near 60 year old ninja seal h2h tank driving throat slitting bazooka dicked Ocdt’s running the deep state regiment of SAS(NP)* commandos for the military. When one of those units breaks down, we all break down. 


*Np - near puberty.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Dec 2020)

Furthermore, Officers can be further broken into several sub-groups:
- General/Flag Officers
- Senior Officers
- Junior Officers
- Subordinate Officers: OCdt/NCdt

As well as:
- Warranted Officers and
- Non-commissioned Officers 

But the point being that OCdts/NCdts are, as Blackadder1916 noted earlier, re: QR&Os, they are officers and can have duties of supervision assigned to them, which could include supervision of non-commissioned members.

Attitudes by others, incorrect as they may be, that OCdts (NCdts) are the lowest-of-the-low are not constructive and do not set appropriate conditions for positive relationships between commission and non-commissioned members later in their career.

Senior NCMs don’t get a warranted excuse to insult and denigrate a subordinate officer just because the former has more TI and the latter does not (yet) hold a Queen’s Commission. 

Regards
G2G


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Exactly! This is why we have near 60 year old ninja seal h2h tank driving throat slitting bazooka dicked Ocdt’s running the deep state regiment of SAS(NP)* commandos for the military. When one of those units breaks down, we all break down.
> 
> 
> *Np - near puberty.



It's been a long day...so I'd like to personally thank you for that.   :nod:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Furthermore, Officers can be broken into four sub-groups:



The suspense is killing me!!!!!  

(1) Kit-explosions

(2) Geographically-challenged

(3) Land Navigation Experiments

(4) Lt Ring, from Heartbreak Ridge

Am I close?

(I kid!  I kid!)


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Dec 2020)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> The way I look at it, is you salute the officer, not necessarily the man.



For sure. I'm not bent out of shape about it or anything.  CIC officer, flag, monument, car driving by with an officer on board, ship, rock with a plaque. All good. Orders are orders. 

I think a lot of people let their ego get the better of them and especially get off on the idea of being saluted and see it as some form of the other person being submissive.

[quote author=Blackadder1916] However, circumstances can place an OCdt in a situation where they are the senior (usually only) officer present and thus they may have command over all NCMs present (up to and including CWO) - 
[/quote]

That definitely seems archaic and a flaw in our system.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Dec 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That definitely seems archaic and a flaw in our system.



Well until the OR's learn to reed n right....


----------



## Kilted (9 Dec 2020)

This individual is definitely one of the few who give some people a bad impression of the entire CIC.  Which is unfortunate.  People in the military do like to get out the ruler and compare themselves to other people, and you get the loud people from some elements hating on other elements because there course is two weeks shorter, or they got put in a position where they didn't leave the FOB very often.  Some of the things that I have heard over the years have been ridiculous.  I think that if CIC weren't officers they would have a much more difficult time dealing with some members of the military.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Dec 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The suspense is killing me!!!!!
> 
> (1) Kit-explosions
> 
> ...



LOL, the unsaved edit to add the promised detail...re-entered.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Dec 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> This individual is definitely one of the few who give some people a bad impression of the entire CIC.  Which is unfortunate.  People in the military do like to get out the ruler and compare themselves to other people, and you get the loud people from some elements hating on other elements because there course is two weeks shorter, or they got put in a position where they didn't leave the FOB very often.  Some of the things that I have heard over the years have been ridiculous.  I think that if CIC weren't officers they would have a much more difficult time dealing with some members of the military.



No advertising is bad advertising.

If the CIC play this the right way it could result in a a huge uptick in applications


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> LOL, the unsaved edit to add the promised detail...re-entered.



Sorry...couldn't resist!


----------



## Kilted (9 Dec 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> No advertising is bad advertising.
> 
> If the CIC play this the right way it could result in a a huge uptick in applications



That is true, I hope the CAF uses this as an opportunity to educate the public about the military, for one to show that this guy was right out in left field and has almost no military experience, but also to build on what has mostly been a pretty good PR year (with the exception of the guys crying wolf, and the guy who tried to kill the PM).


----------



## Gunnar (9 Dec 2020)

> I'm here all night and starting Christmas Leave soon, if you're inclined to continue some more informal PD.



I think you're missing the point.  The point was not to chop logic on word definitions, the point was to narrow down that you respect the position, appointment or commission as delineated by the Canadian Forces, not the person (as stated, the Officer).  I didn't think that was going to be terribly controversial.  But hey, maybe I've learned something.  I'll have to see how it plays out elsewhere.  Perhaps my precision in formulation needs work.


----------



## CBH99 (9 Dec 2020)

I just watched the actual 'speech' he gave at the parade.

I watched the whole thing - him puttering along with what looks like an Itlis, right up to him giving his speech.


As I watched this, my jaw literally dropped.  I watched in utter shock.  This guy wore WEBBING with his Cadpat, and brought a HELMET with him!?   :facepalm:     I laughed when I could, but my mouth was too busy gaping open for me to do much else   :


(I also loved that he had a police unit following right behind him in the parade, and it still didn't dawn on him that *'maybe this was a bad idea?'*)


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Dec 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> That is true, I hope the CAF uses this as an opportunity to educate the public about the military, for one to show that this guy was right out in left right field and has almost no military experience, but also to build on what has mostly been a pretty good PR year (with the exception of the guys crying wolf, and the guy who tried to kill the PM).



FTFY.


----------



## PuckChaser (11 Dec 2020)

Split the topic off to save the really excellent discussion from being clouded by whatever this dummy did. 

https://army.ca/forums/threads/133402.0.html


----------



## gwp (12 Dec 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> If he is even a member to begin with. If he isn't, I expect criminal code charges and a press release stating that he isn't currently a member of the CAF.



I have it on good authority that he is untrained, is listed as NES (non-effective) and is in the process of being released.  He has apparently "returned" his kit very recently.  .  Hopefully this little bit of noise has passed.


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Dec 2020)

gwp said:
			
		

> I have it on good authority that he is untrained, is listed as NES (non-effective) and is in the process of being released.  He has apparently "returned" his kit recently.  .  Hopefully this little bit of noise has passed.



Doesn't matter. The moment he donned the uniform, he became subject to the CSD, NES notwithstanding. Me, I'd throw the book at him if only pour encourager les autres.


----------



## MilEME09 (12 Dec 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter. The moment he donned the uniform, he became subject to the CSD, NES notwithstanding. Me, I'd throw the book at him if only pour encourager les autres.



Even if released now if it happened before all documents were done CSD applies and you can be charged even after release.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Dec 2020)

I think we often cave in to expediency and release problem cases without fully punishing them for a number of reasons including expediency and "optics/Toronto Star" test. We also give people more favorable release items than they deserve IMO.

He misrepresented himself as a soldier and he's a bone head. In this guys case I hope he gets the book thrown at him, learn towards the maximum scale of punishment.


----------



## Kilted (12 Dec 2020)

Even if it was only 15 days in Club Ed, it would be better then what he probably will get. I'm tired of seeing some people do whatever they want and not facing any real problems. He might get kicked out, he was in the process of doing that anyways. Maybe that's what he's hoping for so that he can look like a martyr.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (12 Dec 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> Even if it was only 15 days in Club Ed, it would be better then what he probably will get. I'm tired of seeing some people do whatever they want and not facing any real problems. He might get kicked out, he was in the process of doing that anyways. Maybe that's what he's hoping for so that he can look like a martyr.



In a hypothetical case where he was tried, convicted and sentenced to Detention in Edmonton, I can just about guarantee that the guards there are experts at knocking the “martyr” out of someone...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (12 Dec 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> This individual is definitely one of the few who give some people a bad impression of the entire CIC.  Which is unfortunate.  People in the military do like to get out the ruler and compare themselves to other people, and you get the loud people from some elements hating on other elements because there course is two weeks shorter, or they got put in a position where they didn't leave the FOB very often.  Some of the things that I have heard over the years have been ridiculous.  I think that if CIC weren't officers they would have a much more difficult time dealing with some members of the military.



People who have been doing Navy League longer than I have mentioned that generally the military treats them better as they are volunteers in uniform, whereas the CIC officer is a paid commissioned rank, so the expectation of performance and knowledge is higher.

Best thing to see is a CIC officer at a parade attempting to swing his dick around by trying to dump on the Navy League. He didn't realize that of the 3 of us standing in front of him in our NL uniforms, one was a Reg force Chief Petty Officer, 2nd class, a RCMP member and myself a ex-Reserve Sgt. The CPO quietly and efficiently corrected said CIC officer as to his value in the world. You think the CIC officer would have twigged to a NL Officer having a substantial rack on his chest as a warning, but nope.  ;D


----------



## gwp (13 Dec 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> People who have been doing Navy League longer than I have mentioned that generally the military treats them better as they are volunteers in uniform, whereas the CIC officer is a paid commissioned rank, so the expectation of performance and knowledge is higher.



And so goes the ridiculous and discriminatory pecking order brought on by generalizations, ignorance, bias, attitude, and stupidity that is a threat to everyone's glass house.  There are those that would consider musicians, chaplains, legal and medics, not real military.  Then there is the reserve/regular pecking order followed by dnd civilians and of course the reserve subcomponent pecking order that you can roll the dice as to determine which is on top.   It's all just dumb unfortunate human nature to belittle and diminish "the other," when each is just trying to do what they do with the resources they have.


----------



## brihard (25 May 2021)

UPDATE. I cannot link the article due to the officer, but the Ottawa Citizen reports that numbnuts has been charged with a mutiny related offence; 81(b) NDA as far as I can tell.

81 Every person who

(b) endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.


----------



## dangerboy (25 May 2021)

brihard said:


> UPDATE. I cannot link the article due to the officer, but the Ottawa Citizen reports that numbnuts has been charged with a mutiny related offence; 81(b) NDA as far as I can tell.
> 
> 81 Every person who
> 
> ...


I am sure that someone will correct me I don't think that a mutiny charge has been laid since the late 1940's in the RCN.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 May 2021)

dangerboy said:


> I am sure that someone will correct me I don't think that a mutiny charge has been laid since the late 1940's in the RCN.


I believe you are correct.  The Mainguy Report.





__





						The Mainguy Report
					





					www.forposterityssake.ca


----------



## Haggis (25 May 2021)

brihard said:


> UPDATE. I cannot link the article due to the officer, but the Ottawa Citizen reports that numbnuts has been charged with a mutiny related offence; 81(b) NDA as far as I can tell.


The article also mentions that he was charged under NDA 92 (Scandalous Conduct by Officers).  Geez, I hope this one is open to the public. 🍿


----------



## dimsum (25 May 2021)

Haggis said:


> The article also mentions that he was charged under NDA 92 (Scandalous Conduct by Officers).  Geez, I hope this one is open to the public. 🍿


I'd bring extra spicy popcorn for that one.  

An actual mutiny charge...


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 May 2021)

As of this post, $505 out of a target of $50K on the gofundme "need money for the defence" page.

🍿


----------



## Kilted (25 May 2021)

Was that one of the charges that was punishable by death prior to 1999?


----------



## Kilted (25 May 2021)

Haggis said:


> The article also mentions that he was charged under NDA 92 (Scandalous Conduct by Officers).  Geez, I hope this one is open to the public. 🍿


I'm guessing that that might also have to do with lying about his service,


----------



## PMedMoe (25 May 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> As of this post, $505 out of a target of $50K on the gofundme "need money for the defence" page.
> 
> 🍿


Fools and their money are soon parted.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (25 May 2021)

if I donate to his go fund me cause, does it come with box seats for the trial? 

I use to belong to the parent regiment of his cadet corp.  the former CO and RSM could set the world on fire if their eyes were lazers. He reminds me of stolen valour kind of guy, pad the resume and hope no one checks it.


----------



## Kilted (25 May 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> if I donate to his go fund me cause, does it come with box seats for the trial?
> 
> I use to belong to the parent regiment of his cadet corp.  the former CO and RSM could set the world on fire if their eyes were lazers. He reminds me of stolen valour kind of guy, pad the resume and hope no one checks it.


So that's how he got the black Guards beret.


----------



## MilEME09 (25 May 2021)

Transferring from the other thread









						Canadian Forces charges reservist who spoke at rally about ‘killer vaccine’ - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Officer Cadet Ladislas Kenderesi has been charged with 'endeavoring to persuade another person to join in a mutiny.'




					www.google.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 May 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> As of this post, $505 out of a target of $50K on the gofundme "need money for the defence" page.
> 
> 🍿


And the very latest


----------



## OldSolduer (26 May 2021)

The village got rid of its idiot


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 May 2021)

Can an Officer Cadet be reverted in rank to Pte?  Off to DB....


----------



## SeaKingTacco (27 May 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Can an Officer Cadet be reverted in rank to Pte?  Off to DB....


I had an acquaintance (he was never a friend) who was a Fin O, some years ago. He decided to treat his standing advance as if it were his own money and got caught. He was sentenced to time in the DB and then released. IIRC, while in the DB, he was no longer a Capt, but an OCdt.


----------



## FJAG (27 May 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Can an Officer Cadet be reverted in rank to Pte?  Off to DB....


No. NDA s. 143(1) provides:



> *143* (1) The punishment of reduction in rank applies to officers above the rank of second lieutenant and to non-commissioned members above the rank of private.


As officer cadets are officers they, like second lieutenants cannot be reduced in rank.

🍻


----------



## Kilted (28 May 2021)

One of the first things that they would need to do at Club Ed is teach him drill.  From my understanding, he never finished the CIC basic.


----------



## DeweyDecimal (28 May 2021)

Kilted said:


> One of the first things that they would need to do at Club Ed is teach him drill.  From my understanding, he never finished the CIC basic.


Doesn't he have prior service with the GGHG ?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 May 2021)

Kilted said:


> One of the first things that they would need to do at Club Ed is teach him drill.  From my understanding, he never finished the CIC basic.


Oh, don’t worry. If he is found guilty and spends time in Edmonton, his drill will be immaculate by the time he leaves...


----------



## MilEME09 (28 May 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Oh, don’t worry. If he is found guilty and spends time in Edmonton, his drill will be immaculate by the time he leaves...


Aren't mutiny related charges a maximum life sentence? I doubt he would get that long but it would make for a good chuckle.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 May 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Aren't mutiny related charges a maximum life sentence? I doubt he would get that long but it would make for a good chuckle.


It is,  but IIRC, you can only do 2 years at the DB and then have to be transferred to another federal institution to finish your sentence.


----------



## Kilted (28 May 2021)

DeweyDecimal said:


> Doesn't he have prior service with the GGHG ?


I believe all of those claims were Stolen Valour.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (28 May 2021)

As hopefully a soon-to-be CIC officer but also as a former reserve infantry officer, this OCdt Kenderesi person really angers me with his actions and his hodge-podge of outdated and current kit, half of which he'd not be entitled to even if it were current an Canadian. The man is a complete disgrace in the "stolen valour" variety and makes CAF, and specifically CIC look bad regardless of what his message was. I happen to not be in favour of lockdowns an think there were other ways of dealing with this. I am also chary of injections that have been rushed to market in a timeline that just a few months ago MSM was saying would be dangerously fast (just two examples of what I'm talking about: https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/31/us/c...th/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html). 

That said, this guy's actions are indefensible. They also make those of us who have questions look like crazy tinfoil hat conspiracy people because we naturally get lumped-in with this guy. So when I saw that he was charged my initial reaction was "good, I hope they throw the book at him." After cooling off for a few days and trying to look at it more objectively, I think that his career in the CAF is clearly done as it should be. I am wondering about the mutiny charge though ... seems a bit like taking out a mosquito with a bazooka, but looking at the law ...



brihard said:


> UPDATE. I cannot link the article due to the officer, but the Ottawa Citizen reports that numbnuts has been charged with a mutiny related offence; 81(b) NDA as far as I can tell.
> 
> 81 Every person who
> 
> ...



Had a look at the NDA for the legal definition of "mutiny". The term appears to be a bit broader than the dictionary definition, given that mere "insubordination" versus the open rebellion or attempted overthrow of authority in the dictionary definition:

"mutiny means collective insubordination or a combination of two or more persons in the resistance of lawful authority in any of Her Majesty’s Forces or in any forces cooperating therewith; (mutinerie)"

I'd be interested to hear from those with experience/knowledge in military law on what the chances are of this charge sticking. I don't know the ins-and-outs of proving _mens rea_ for this (and it sounds like there may not be a lot of case law precedents), but it seems to me that -- as angry as this idiot's actions make me -- mutiny is a rather heavy charge for a vague speech encouraging military to not administer vaccines IF it comes to pass that they are ordered to.

Conduct unbecoming seems absolutely fitting to me.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (28 May 2021)

some one here said he was prior service Infantry officer, if so he would have a commission already  so he would never be an Officer Cadet again. No matter what you keep your commission even when changing branches or services.  Second he claims to be a tank driver, if he was a Horse Guard ( no one remembers him from the tank days , Last time the Horse Guards had tanks was the 60s. Then it was jeep recce, then cougars ( not tanks) then back to recce role with Gwagons and Tapv. If he drove tanks in the GGHG he would be much older and beyond CRA. Too much crap on his resume and introduction at that  speech to be considered real. he was on his way  out of the CIC  for medical reasons, and other reasons. He is a phony with a date to be released and court martial all at the same time.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (28 May 2021)

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I am wondering about the mutiny charge though ... seems a bit like taking out a mosquito with a bazooka, but looking at the law ...
> 
> Had a look at the NDA for the legal definition of "mutiny". The term appears to be a bit broader than the dictionary definition, given that mere "insubordination" versus the open rebellion or attempted overthrow of authority in the dictionary definition:
> 
> ...



Not a lawyer, though I have been accused on occasion of being the barracks room type.  It will be interesting to see how the mutiny related charge unfolds.  There isn't much in the QR&O notes to this offence.  I suppose that comes from being a rare occurrence, though I did have an RSM in the 1970s who threatened to charge me with inciting to mutiny (for the following couple of years he continued to refer to me as "mutinous bastard").

I had to go back to the law manual used by the Canadian Army up to and through WW2 for some background.  I've done some cut and paste of a couple of the pages that discussed mutiny.  Unfortunately, the online copy that I was able to find is missing about half the book, which includes the Army Act (the portion like the CSD in the NDA that lists the offences) and Rules of Procedure.  I have a paper copy of the complete 1941 manual.

Extracts from the Manual of Military Law 1929 Reprinted for Use in the Canadian Army


			http://www.lareau-legal.ca/Manual1929.pdf
		



In that discussion and in references to "mutinies" in other countries' militaries there runs a similar thread.  One person does not a mutiny make.  The language in Para 5 of the above excerpt seems to suggest that (historically) there had to be a combination of two (or more) before the act of inducing others to join would be viewed as a mutiny related offence.



> 5.   The term "mutiny" implies collective insubordination or a combination of two or more persons to resist or induce others to resist lawful military authority.



And if the charge is "endeavoured to persuade another person to join in a mutiny", *who specifically is that other person* (as seems to be required in the specimen charge per QR&O 103.14) or are they making the leap that his rambling public embarrassment was "persuasion".


> ENDEAVOURED TO PERSUADE ANOTHER PERSON TO JOIN IN A MUTINY
> 
> _Particulars_: In that he, on (_date_), at (_indicate place of offence_), endeavoured to persuade* (number, rank and name)* to join him in refusing to obey the orders of the commanding officer to report for duty.


----------



## ModlrMike (28 May 2021)

In my experience, JAG is not in the habit of recommending charges that have no prospect of conviction.


----------



## lenaitch (28 May 2021)

I'm certainly not up on military law, but the specimen charge texts might not be exhaustive or exclusive.  The text of NDA Section 81(b) says:

(_b_) endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny.

The inclusion of a specific 'any person' in the charge sheet seems irrelevant.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 May 2021)

I_ suppose_ the mutiny stuff is bad but his biggest sin has to be dress and deportment.

Wearing a raincoat (when it's not even raining!) with a beret.
Randomly wearing 82 pattern webbing.
Buck model 119 knife in a sheath that's clearly not designed for the knife.

Terrible.


----------



## CountDC (28 May 2021)

Having dealt with a few charges last couple years I agree with ModlrMike.  The JAG went through every charge I sent with a fine tooth comb, recommended drops and changes, finally approved the end drafts that mostly stood the test.  Only one charge didn't make it due to wording of the accusation which could have been interpreted different ways (that was a recommended drop that the unit decided to keep).


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (31 May 2021)

ModlrMike said:


> In my experience, JAG is not in the habit of recommending charges that have no prospect of conviction.



I don't think anyone disputes this; the fact that JAG only recommends charges where there is a good prospect of conviction doesn't mean that conviction is guaranteed.

I don't know enough about the law to know how strong the prosecution case is in law. The facts won't be very controversial given that you can download his speech on YouTube.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I_ suppose_ the mutiny stuff is bad but his biggest sin has to be dress and deportment.
> 
> Wearing a raincoat (when it's not even raining!) with a beret.
> Randomly wearing 82 pattern webbing.
> ...



No scrim on the helmet either... sheesh


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> No scrim on the helmet either... sheesh


😆 Not a good Mo dude without the Sideshow Bob scrim!


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (24 Nov 2021)

any updates on this case?


----------



## brihard (24 Nov 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> any updates on this case?


Dammit, you got my hopes up when I saw this thread had a new post.


----------



## Scott (24 Nov 2021)

I almost banned him.

Edited to reflect not being serious.


----------



## dangerboy (22 Sep 2022)

According to the Court Martial calendar OCdt Kenderesi's Court Martial is taking place today. I am curious to see how this goes. I beleive it has been quite a while since a person has been charged with mutiny.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (22 Sep 2022)

dangerboy said:


> According to the Court Martial calendar OCdt Kenderesi's Court Martial is taking place today. I am curious to see how this goes. I beleive it has been quite a while since a person has been charged with mutiny.
> 
> View attachment 73706


I pity his Defense Counsel. I doubt he plans to take a plea deal.


----------



## KevinB (22 Sep 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I pity his Defense Counsel. I doubt he plans to take a plea deal.


Insanity.


----------



## GK .Dundas (22 Sep 2022)

KevinB said:


> Insanity.


No, as someone else has pointed out that would be a plea deal.


----------



## KevinB (22 Sep 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> No, as someone else has pointed out that would be a plea deal.


The facts sort of speak for themselves…


----------



## GK .Dundas (22 Sep 2022)

KevinB said:


> The facts sort of speak for themselves…


I kinda got the feeling that facts aren't all that important to this guy and his hangers on .
Apparently he experiences them differently then you or I appear to.


----------



## dapaterson (22 Sep 2022)

It was the FA of times, it was the FO of times.


----------



## GK .Dundas (22 Sep 2022)

Two quick questions for the legal beagles here.
One, will the Court Martial be open to the public? And two,can I bring popcorn ?
Quite frankly if it is opened to the public unless there has been some sort  of change in the general attitude of these folk. It will be a a gong show. 
Decorum inside or outside of the courtroom hasn't been their strong point.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Sep 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Two quick questions for the legal beagles here.
> One, will the Court Martial be open to the public? And two,can I bring popcorn ?
> Quite frankly if it is opened to the public unless there has been some sort  of change in the general attitude of these folk. It will be a a gong show.
> Decorum inside or outside of the courtroom hasn't been their strong point.


It should be open to the public. That is the default setting for Court Martials.


----------



## dimsum (22 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> It should be open to the public. That is the default setting for Court Martials.


Hopefully there's a livestream link


----------



## dapaterson (22 Sep 2022)

Per the website of the Chief Military Judge, the proceedings are open to the public.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Sep 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Two quick questions for the legal beagles here.
> One, will the Court Martial be open to the public? And two,can I bring popcorn ?
> Quite frankly if it is opened to the public unless there has been some sort  of change in the general attitude of these folk. It will be a a gong show.
> Decorum inside or outside of the courtroom hasn't been their strong point.



You MAY NOT bring popcorn unless you have enough for the judge. He might want some too.

My apologies I assumed the gender of the judge. Woe is me…🤦‍♂️


----------



## dimsum (22 Sep 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You MAY NOT bring popcorn unless you have enough for the judge. He might want some too.


So what you're saying is that an enterprising individual should set up a popcorn stand outside the courtroom...


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> So what you're saying is that an enterprising individual should set up a popcorn stand outside the courtroom...


Yes and hot dogs too. 👍🏻👍🏻


----------



## kratz (22 Sep 2022)

I thought the CM was in Borden, not Edmonton?


----------



## RangerRay (22 Sep 2022)

That will be worth watching. Do they stream courts martial now?


----------



## dimsum (22 Sep 2022)

RangerRay said:


> That will be worth watching. Do they stream courts martial now?


No, but they should


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 Sep 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Two quick questions for the legal beagles here.
> One, will the Court Martial be open to the public? And two,can I bring popcorn ?
> Quite frankly if it is opened to the public unless there has been some sort  of change in the general attitude of these folk. It will be a a gong show.
> Decorum inside or outside of the courtroom hasn't been their strong point.








						Upcoming courts martial - Canada.ca
					

List of upcoming courts martial by date and/or by province.




					www.canada.ca
				




_Notice: Members of the public wishing to attend this judicial proceeding are requested to send an email, if possible at least 72 hours before the start of the judicial proceeding, at +CMA-ACM@CMJ@Ottawa-Hull or DND.CMA-ACM.MDN@forces.gc.ca, to indicate their desire to attend this hearing. The person responsible for access to this legal proceeding will then provide, by e-mail, the particulars related to the method of attendance. IMPORTANT: It is strictly forbidden to record legal proceedings without the express permission of the presiding military judge._


----------



## brihard (22 Sep 2022)

I just read that the encouraging mutiny charge was withdrawn, scandalous conduct was stayed, and he took a plea deal to conduct prejudicial. Pretty predictable result.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> I just read that the encouraging mutiny charge was withdrawn, scandalous conduct was stayed, and he took a plea deal to conduct prejudicial. Pretty predictable result.



Prosecution and defence agreed on asking for $4,200 fine and severe reprimand.









						Military officer reprimanded, fined for anti-vaccine comments while wearing uniform
					

OTTAWA — A Canadian Armed Forces officer who publicly urged other military members to disobey orders and not help distribute COVID-19 vaccines was reprimanded and fined on Thursday after apologizing for his “public display of disloyalty.




					www.cochranetoday.ca
				





> Besner and Gélinas-Proulx nonetheless agreed in asking that Pelletier sentence Kenderesi to a severe reprimand and $4,200 fine. They added the officer cadet has already served 80 hours of community service.
> 
> Pelletier appeared to acknowledge the precedent that his ruling would set for future cases, calling it unique due to the context of the pandemic as well as the public nature of the officer cadet’s comments.


----------



## RangerRay (22 Sep 2022)

Sounds like he got a good lawyer that told him to STFU. I’m surprised he didn’t fire him and try representing himself.


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Sep 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Prosecution and defence agreed on asking for $4,200 fine and severe reprimand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a pretty good outcome IMHO. Well done the legal system!


----------



## Kilted (23 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> That's a pretty good outcome IMHO. Well done the legal system!


I'm pretty upset with it, he won't see any jail time and won't be released. How is this supposed to deter other people from doing the same thing?


----------



## brihard (23 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm pretty upset with it, he won't see any jail time and won't be released. How is this supposed to deter other people from doing the same thing?


I fully expect he’ll be released administratively, as opposed to being bounced out as a sentence. Plus he’s COATS and wasn’t even active for a while. Not like he was actually anything close to a soldier.

$4200 isn’t a cheap tab either.


----------



## Kilted (23 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> I fully expect he’ll be released administratively, as opposed to being bounced out as a sentence. Plus he’s COATS and wasn’t even active for a while. Not like he was actually anything close to a soldier.
> 
> $4200 isn’t a cheap tab either.


So the reprimand will be essentially useless. I'm sure some of the anti-vax crowd will find a way to contribute to paying that fine. 

So he's going to be administratively released out of the public eye?  Would he have received this same sentence if he had been an NCM or in a different role?


----------



## Lumber (23 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm pretty upset with it, he won't see any jail time and won't be released. How is this supposed to deter other people from doing the same thing?





Kilted said:


> So the reprimand will be essentially useless. I'm sure some of the anti-vax crowd will find a way to contribute to paying that fine.
> 
> So he's going to be administratively released out of the public eye?  Would he have received this same sentence if he had been an NCM or in a different role?


I think that this punishment was appropriate because of the scope and context of his "mutinous" activity.

I believe that there would have been very VERY few people in uniform would could possibly have listened to/watched him and been motivated to actually act mutinously. He deportment and demeanor screamed "don't take this guy seriously", even if you agreed with his underlying premise. So, the threat of actual mutinous activity as a result was never serious.


----------



## brihard (23 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> So the reprimand will be essentially useless. I'm sure some of the anti-vax crowd will find a way to contribute to paying that fine.
> 
> So he's going to be administratively released out of the public eye?  Would he have received this same sentence if he had been an NCM or in a different role?



I’m sure the sentence adequately reflects his relevance to the institution as a whole. Don’t forget, he was not convicted or sentenced for mutiny; the charge related to that was withdrawn. He was convicted for conduct prejudicial and he ate quite a mouthful of shit for that offence. Sentencing must be based only on the offence(s) for which someone is convicted; not anything of which they were merely accused.

If a CAF member who was actually in a position to be taken seriously encouraged mutiny, and if that offence was prosecuted and convicted, I’m sure we’d see a fit sentence.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (23 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> I think that this punishment was appropriate because of the scope and context of his "mutinous" activity.
> 
> I believe that there would have been very VERY few people in uniform would could possibly have listened to/watched him and been motivated to actually act mutinously. He deportment and demeanor screamed "don't take this guy seriously", even if you agreed with his underlying premise. So, the threat of actual mutinous activity as a result was never serious.


I have various thoughts on his charges, rank, and service branch.
1) It was a very public event.  He was wearing some sort of uniform, ( leaving the various parts of the kit explosion he was wearing aside the general public sees him as a soldier in uniform and the introduction of him to the public, made him sound like the next GI JOE VC, MOH winner if not already having earned those medals). So the general public could take his statements at face value and think or worry that the military is now rogue and looking to over throw the government on this policy. Scary for some people from other countries who have lived thru military coups or attempted coups. 
2) Standing up there and denouncing the Government in Uniform is a serious issue and should be taken seriously, and the punishment should fit the crime.
3) Would member of the CAF follow the advice of a Officer Cadet and take his rants, suggestions seriously? I do not think so, but there is and was a huge number of Canadians thinking the policies in place over reaction and were already thinking the program was wrong and was not going to go along with the policy. This gave them a hero or a figure to rally around. People were at the rally so we know there was a following already.
4) Munity charge might of been over the top, but it certainly puts the fear of GOD ( RSM) in most troops who are thinking of following this man and going public with comments or thoughts while in Uniform.
5) This showed to all of the CAF that CIC , CIL officers are really members of the CAF and they have to follow the same rules as the rest of the serving members.  No longer the ugly step child of the CAF, because this proved to everyone including them can end up doing the hatless dance if they break the rules of conduct. 
6) Certainly in embarrassed the Regiment, the Cadet Corp he belonged to.  Former CO was fit to be tied. 
7) Plea deal should be made public and published so the public sees the Military was fair and civil in this matter and not forgotten about.
Now get him out of the CIC, CIL so he cannot corrupt the cadet program anymore.


----------



## dimsum (23 Sep 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I have various thoughts on his charges, rank, and service branch.
> 1) It was a very public event.  He was wearing some sort of uniform, ( leaving the various parts of the kit explosion he was wearing aside the general public sees him as a soldier in uniform and the introduction of him to the public, made him sound like the next GI JOE VC, MOH winner if not already having earned those medals). So the general public could take his statements at face value and think or worry that the military is now rogue and looking to over throw the government on this policy. Scary for some people from other countries who have lived thru military coups or attempted coups.
> 2) Standing up there and denouncing the Government in Uniform is a serious issue and should be taken seriously, and the punishment should fit the crime.
> 3) Would member of the CAF follow the advice of a Officer Cadet and take his rants, suggestions seriously? I do not think so, but there is and was a huge number of Canadians thinking the policies in place over reaction and were already thinking the program was wrong and was not going to go along with the policy. This gave them a hero or a figure to rally around. People were at the rally so we know there was a following already.
> ...


One nitpicky point - CIL doesn't exist anymore.  It became the CIC (which, I suppose, became COATS).


----------



## quadrapiper (23 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> One nitpicky point - CIL doesn't exist anymore.  It became the CIC (which, I suppose, became COATS).


CIC's still extant. COATS is a larger "box" which includes both CIC and "COATS GS" officers and NCMs who've CT'd from Regular or PRes service. Was initially billed (at least as far as what I saw as Class A CIC...) as a way to allow continuing service for interested members no longer able to meet UoS/medical/etc. or planning on retiring but interested in e.g. working with a corps. The big positives were that members would retain their prior unit identity, and that there was an official place for NCMs in parts of the cadet structure that were previously officer-only.

It seems to have expanded from that concept to include a significant number of members in support roles that would historically have been filled by Regulars on a normal posting cycle or PRes.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Sep 2022)

Slap on the wrist.


----------



## Remius (23 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> So the reprimand will be essentially useless. I'm sure some of the anti-vax crowd will find a way to contribute to paying that fine.
> 
> So he's going to be administratively released out of the public eye?  Would he have received this same sentence if he had been an NCM or in a different role?


The severe reprimand is essentially a career killer for him.  

Being released is an administrative action.  I suspect that will be happening.  

Being and NCM or not is irrelevant.  And likely yes. Or some approximation of that.


----------



## brihard (23 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Slap on the wrist.


$4200 for a 129? You think so?


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> $4200 for a 129? You think so?


Yea man, I think so.

He's a military officer who in a military uniform publicly called for a mutiny. The plea deal is part of the slap on the wrist IMO. He's probably already got right-wing wingnuts offering to pay that fine for him.


----------



## brihard (23 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea man, I think so.
> 
> He's a military officer who in a military uniform publicly called for a mutiny. The plea deal is part of the slap on the wrist IMO. He's probably already got right-wing wingnuts offering to pay that fine for him.


The encouraging mutiny charge would have been a tough sell in court, especially given how untested that offence is in case law. I wouldn’t be surprised if the prosecutor looked at it, assessed that his ‘encouragement’ had no meaningful impact on anyone else in uniform, and figured they’d be risking bad case law. That’s my very amateur guess on it.

If he had been in an actual position of responsibility or likely to be heeded in any real way, that probably would have been another matter.

Just my take on it. You could well be right.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> The severe reprimand is essentially a career killer for him.


For as much of a “career” as a….you know…60-year old OCdt is going to have…


----------



## Remius (23 Sep 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> For as much of a “career” as a….you know…60-year old OCdt is going to have…


True.  But it will amplify his possible release I would gather.


----------



## Remius (23 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> $4200 for a 129? You think so?


Would that not be almost a year’s average salary for a cic Ocdt?


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Would that not be almost a year’s average salary for a cic Ocdt?


Do the reserves have to provide members charged with large fines an adequate amount of work in order to pay off the fine?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (23 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Do the reserves have to provide members charged with large fines an adequate amount of work in order to pay off the fine?


Nope.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Nope.


With the CAFs penchant to taking payments out all at once I wonder what would happen if this gig was buddies only source of income and he only got 1x half day per month.


----------



## brihard (23 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> With the CAFs penchant to taking payments out all at once I wonder what would happen if this gig was buddies only source of income and he only got 1x half day per month.


Sucks to be him then.


----------



## Remius (23 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> With the CAFs penchant to taking payments out all at once I wonder what would happen if this gig was buddies only source of income and he only got 1x half day per month.


Well at least he made some pay for the trial day and any trial prep he had to do so there is that lol


----------



## SeaKingTacco (23 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> With the CAFs penchant to taking payments out all at once I wonder what would happen if this gig was buddies only source of income and he only got 1x half day per month.


Maybe he should have thought about that before he went all “William Wallace”…


----------



## GK .Dundas (23 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Maybe he should have thought about that before he went all “William Wallace”…


Wait, he was wearing woad too ?


----------



## dapaterson (23 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> With the CAFs penchant to taking payments out all at once I wonder what would happen if this gig was buddies only source of income and he only got 1x half day per month.


A presiding officer is supposed to consider all such things, including indirect effects.

I have heard of sentences that include a fine plus extra duty, which were intended to be offsetting, so the individual would be able to cover their fine.

Of course, that would depend on the nature of the offence, and whether the individual acknowledged their failure of conduct (or not).


----------



## MJP (24 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> With the CAFs penchant to taking payments out all at once I wonder what would happen if this gig was buddies only source of income and he only got 1x half day per month.


Most of the larger fines I have seen have been payable over a certain time period which is usually determined between counsel and the judge to not cause undue hardship too the accused


----------



## Kilted (24 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> The encouraging mutiny charge would have been a tough sell in court, especially given how untested that offence is in case law. I wouldn’t be surprised if the prosecutor looked at it, assessed that his ‘encouragement’ had no meaningful impact on anyone else in uniform, and figured they’d be risking bad case law. That’s my very amateur guess on it.
> 
> If he had been in an actual position of responsibility or likely to be heeded in any real way, that probably would have been another matter.
> 
> Just my take on it. You could well be right.


Except that he was charged with 81b, endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny.  The actus reus and men's rea can be met without anyone actually listening to him. This isn't one of those impact or intent issues.


----------



## lenaitch (24 Sep 2022)

Always an outsider looking in, but would any objective military member watching this guy rant on the news have taken him seriously?  If he was addressing a military assembly perhaps, but anybody attending a rally like that wasn't likely there to hear a variety of viewpoints.

Depending on the wording of a particular offence, whether an action or intended action has a successful outcome or even the potential for one may or may not be relevant.  I am guessing that, in the grand scheme of military conduct law, 'encouraging a mutiny' is pretty top drawer, but rare.  He wasn't addressing a military assembly - he was talking to the wind.  I can well imagine that the prosecutor, based on not a whole lot of case law, either didn't see a reasonable prospect of conviction or didn't feel the trial effort would result in a significantly different verdict.  If the charge had been tried and lost, then a contemporary legal benchmark would be set.  Of course, he could have just as easily been convicted.  Judgement call; juice vs. squeeze.

I never quite figured a 60 year old officer cadet; is(was?) an officer in the cadet program?


----------



## dimsum (24 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Except that he was charged with 81b, endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny.  The actus reus and men's rea can be met without anyone actually listening to him. This isn't one of those impact or intent issues.


Wasn't that charge dropped?



lenaitch said:


> I never quite figured a 60 year old officer cadet; is(was?) an officer in the cadet program?


Yes, he was not in the Reg F or PRes.  I don't know his story but it's totally possible to have a 60-year old OCdt in CIC if they just don't continue with courses.


----------



## lenaitch (24 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Yes, he was not in the Reg F or PRes.  I don't know his story but it's totally possible to have a 60-year old OCdt in CIC if they just don't continue with courses.


Sorry, civi here still unclear.  Is (was) he on staff of the cadet program; i.e. teaching, managing, etc., or was he a cadet, wanting to be an officer?  I thought the cadet program had age rules.  No biggie - just curious.


----------



## dangerboy (24 Sep 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Sorry, civi here still unclear.  Is (was) he on staff of the cadet program; i.e. teaching, managing, etc., or was he a cadet, wanting to be an officer?  I thought the cadet program had age rules.  No biggie - just curious.


His rank is Officer Cadet and he worked in the cadet program. For the CIC program you can be from 18 to 64 years of age. Cadet Instructor Cadre Officers - Canada.ca  I can see how it can be confusing.


----------



## brihard (24 Sep 2022)

Kilted said:


> Except that he was charged with 81b, endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny.  The actus reus and men's rea can be met without anyone actually listening to him. This isn't one of those impact or intent issues.


Yes, I’m aware. And they withdrew that charge, so they evidently felt the circumstances didn’t warrant pushing it. They may have gotten a conviction, they may not. It would probably have been marginal, due to his utter lack of influence, rank, credibility, or military significance.

Re questions about his rank/status/age: he worked exclusively with the Army Cadets, and was part of a subcomponent of the primary reserve called COATS that includes the Cadet Instructor’s Cadre officer trade.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> The encouraging mutiny charge would have been a tough sell in court, especially given how untested that offence is in case law. I wouldn’t be surprised if the prosecutor looked at it, assessed that his ‘encouragement’ had no meaningful impact on anyone else in uniform, and figured they’d be risking bad case law. That’s my very amateur guess on it.
> 
> If he had been in an actual position of responsibility or likely to be heeded in any real way, that probably would have been another matter.
> 
> Just my take on it. You could well be right.



I'm not smart enough to know whether or not we have a good justice system but it doesn't really seem like justice to me. It always seems like we're making plea deals for the sake of expediency, resources, and 'to get something on paper'. 10 charges for a maximum of 10 years jail gets bargained to 1 charge with 6 months. "Better than nothing". It seems like a crumby approach (but I know I'm missing perspectives here).

In jobs with extreme trust, the CAF and police, it's gross to see our people have sexual assault charges, assault charges, and other shit bargained down. Staying charges is right up there too. I don't have a better solution unfortunately.

This guys crime is victimless but still serious (for soldiers anyways). I would have liked to see him get 30 days in club ed then given his release papers on day 31. It would be a good example and bar to set.


----------



## ArmyRick (24 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm not smart enough to know whether or not we have a good justice system but it doesn't really seem like justice to me. It always seems like we're making plea deals for the sake of expediency, resources, and 'to get something on paper'. 10 charges for a maximum of 10 years jail gets bargained to 1 charge with 6 months. "Better than nothing". It seems like a crumby approach (but I know I'm missing perspectives here).
> 
> In jobs with extreme trust, the CAF and police, it's gross to see our people have sexual assault charges, assault charges, and other shit bargained down. Staying charges is right up there too. I don't have a better solution unfortunately.
> 
> This guys crime is victimless but still serious (for soldiers anyways). I would have liked to see him get 30 days in club ed then given his release papers on day 31. It would be a good example and bar to set.


I remember a JAG lawyer once said in a brief that how far they push a charge will depend on severity of the offence (s) and whats in the public's interest.  They do seek pleas for sake of expediency when its appropriate.


----------



## brihard (24 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm not smart enough to know whether or not we have a good justice system but it doesn't really seem like justice to me. It always seems like we're making plea deals for the sake of expediency, resources, and 'to get something on paper'. 10 charges for a maximum of 10 years jail gets bargained to 1 charge with 6 months. "Better than nothing". It seems like a crumby approach (but I know I'm missing perspectives here).
> 
> In jobs with extreme trust, the CAF and police, it's gross to see our people have sexual assault charges, assault charges, and other shit bargained down. Staying charges is right up there too. I don't have a better solution unfortunately.
> 
> This guys crime is victimless but still serious (for soldiers anyways). I would have liked to see him get 30 days in club ed then given his release papers on day 31. It would be a good example and bar to set.


I’ll be blunt: the justice system is completely overwhelmed and badly under resourced and cases are getting thrown out frequently for undue delay- eighteen months post charge, if a case hasn’t gone to trial, it’s likely tossed.

The justice system is really expensive. Judges and lawyers obviously get paid a lot. There’s a whole support infrastructure behind the scenes.

So, plea deals are necessary to help control the volume of matters before the courts. Is it distasteful at times? Sure. It also has other benefits though, such as saving the victims of violent crimes from having to testify. It also saves having to pull investigators or technical experts away from their duties for days of court (a lot of money is poured down the drain paying cops to sit in court - sometimes on overtime - waiting to be called to testify, if they even do.

So yeah, the rampancy of plea deals is not ideal, but it’s a necessary reality. Of all the many people I’ve ever charged, a strong majority have pled out.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ll be blunt: the justice system is completely overwhelmed and badly under resourced and cases are getting thrown out frequently for undue delay- eighteen months
> So yeah, the rampancy of plea deals is not ideal, but it’s a necessary reality. Of all the many people I’ve ever charged, a strong majority have pled out.



And they usually (I think) wind up with a criminal record, which is a distasteful longer term experience for most.


----------



## brihard (24 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> And they usually (I think) wind up with a criminal record, which is a distasteful longer term experience for most.


Nothing like the ol’ GTFO when you try to take the kids to Disneyworld, or drive down to catch a Bills game.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> Nothing like the ol’ GTFO when you try to take the kids to Disneyworld, or drive down to catch a Bills game.



Or find a job.


----------



## lenaitch (24 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ll be blunt: the justice system is completely overwhelmed and badly under resourced and cases are getting thrown out frequently for undue delay- eighteen months post charge, if a case hasn’t gone to trial, it’s likely tossed.
> 
> The justice system is really expensive. Judges and lawyers obviously get paid a lot. There’s a whole support infrastructure behind the scenes.
> 
> ...


One of my brothers-in-law is a retired partner from a major law firm and taught at a law school in Ontario.  He said most lawyers today will never see the inside of a courtroom, either criminal or civil, with the possible exception of maybe a motions or a plea/settlement hearing unless they choose to specialize.  It's just too expensive, even for private litigants, and most major law firms aren't interested.


----------



## brihard (24 Sep 2022)

lenaitch said:


> One of my brothers-in-law is a retired partner from a major law firm and taught at a law school in Ontario.  He said most lawyers today will never see the inside of a courtroom, either criminal or civil, with the possible exception of maybe a motions or a plea/settlement hearing unless they choose to specialize.  It's just too expensive, even for private litigants, and most major law firms aren't interested.


It would be neat to see some stats on what actually goes to trial. I’d bet that impaired driving prosecutions for middle to upper middle class people with no criminal record would feature disproportionately.


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## lenaitch (25 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> It would be neat to see some stats on what actually goes to trial. I’d bet that impaired driving prosecutions for middle to upper middle class people with no criminal record would feature disproportionately.


Yes it would.  I have heard that, in some Ontario courts, 'low level' impaired (if true, because what I'm hearing is all unofficial, I don't what that cut-off means) are being plead down to HTA Careless Driving, simply to clear the docket.  I do know that, with a virtual mandatory charge policy in domestic disputes, coupled with a Ministry directive to oppose bail, many Assault I charges end up being disposed of as Peace Bonds, mostly at the first appearance.  I would also be interesting to see the stats on cases lost simply to timing out.  Lower level Ontario courts are a bit of a mess.

My B-in-L was a bit a unicorn in a large 'Bay Street' law firm because he had been  a copper and did some articling time as Crown prosecutor, so when some big money corporate client's kid got popped for Impaired or drugs, most of the partners had no clue what to do and had never litigated at (then) Provincial Court level.  He is convinced this 'go-to guy' image was part of how quickly he rose in the firm.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> Yes, he was not in the Reg F or PRes.  I don't know his story but it's totally possible to have a 60-year old OCdt in CIC if they just don't continue with courses.



CICs are PRes members.





__





						Become a Cadet Instructor Cadre Officer - Canada.ca
					

Who can become an officer in the Cadet Instructors Cadre, how to join, training opportunities and more.




					www.canada.ca


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea man, I think so.
> 
> He's a military officer who in a military uniform publicly called for a mutiny. The plea deal is part of the slap on the wrist IMO. He's probably already got right-wing wingnuts offering to pay that fine for him.



100% agree with you on this, this was weak.   Weak.  This person should have done time in DB IMO.


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## FormerHorseGuard (27 Sep 2022)

this man has been given a lot of bandwidth.  wasted taxpayers money, in lack of training, uniforms ( wasting a lot of his own money, reminds me of guys coming off the basic training courses and spending a pay cheque back my days on US kit, like jungle boots, rain coat,  personalized camo paint) and now on a plea bargain court case. Good Riddance  and farewell, do not let the door hit you on the way out.


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## dapaterson (27 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> CICs are PRes members.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No.

CIC are Reserve Force members.  The Reserve Force consists of four sub components.

The Primary Reserve
The Canadian Rangers
The COATS
The Supplementary Reserve


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> No.
> 
> CIC are Reserve Force members.  The Reserve Force consists of four sub components.
> 
> ...



Doh!  Good catch…I should know better to post before coffee (still no power in my neck of the woods).


----------



## dapaterson (27 Sep 2022)

No coffee?  Isn't that what you have ACSOs with a jetboil for?


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> No.
> 
> CIC are Reserve Force members.  The Reserve Force consists of four sub components.
> 
> ...



and the 'Shadow Reserve' a.k.a. manipulative Regimental Family type organizations


----------



## Remius (27 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> No coffee?  Isn't that what you have ACSOs with a jetboil for?


Used my jetboil when we're without power here for about a week or so.  Awesome piece of kit to have.


----------



## dimsum (27 Sep 2022)

dapaterson said:


> No coffee?  Isn't that what you have ACSOs with a jetboil for?


The thing that definitely shouldn't be used onboard aircraft?  Sounds about right.  

And most civilized aircraft have something called "electric outlets" for "kettles"


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2022)

dimsum said:


> The thing that definitely shouldn't be used onboard aircraft?  Sounds about right.
> 
> And most civilized aircraft have something called "electric outlets" for "kettles"



Hot cups!!   Kenco 3-in-1s!


----------



## Lumber (28 Sep 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Hot cups!!   Kenco 3-in-1s!


Just use the RCAF's catering budget and go the route of the USAF:

Lawmaker Chides Air Force for Buying Expensive Coffee Cups​Lawmaker Chides Air Force for Buying Expensive Coffee Cups


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## kev994 (28 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Just use the RCAF's catering budget and go the route of the USAF:
> 
> Lawmaker Chides Air Force for Buying Expensive Coffee Cups​Lawmaker Chides Air Force for Buying Expensive Coffee Cups


A better title would be “Lawmaker doesn’t know what a hot cup is but he’s mad about it”. It’s not a coffee cup, it’s a device for heating water that’s certified for use on the aircraft. Sure, you can make coffee with it, or soup, or anything requiring boiling water.


----------



## Lumber (28 Sep 2022)

kev994 said:


> A better title would be “Lawmaker doesn’t know what a hot cup is but he’s mad about it”. It’s not a coffee cup, it’s a device for heating water that’s certified for use on the aircraft. Sure, you can make coffee with it, or soup, or anything requiring boiling water.


Forgive my ignorance, but why doesn't a normal $15 Walmart electric kettle work on a pressurized aircraft?


----------



## kev994 (28 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but why doesn't a normal $15 Walmart electric kettle work on a pressurized aircraft?


It’s not certified. And when you turn and it falls over and pours water onto some other electrical device it’s bad news bears. This thing attaches to the wall as it’s plugged in.


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## SeaKingTacco (28 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but why doesn't a normal $15 Walmart electric kettle work on a pressurized aircraft?


Airworthiness approval.

How much money do you save if that $15 Walmart kettle catches fires inflight and destroys an $80 million dollar aircraft, plus crew?


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Airworthiness approval.
> 
> How much money do you save if that $15 Walmart kettle catches fires inflight and destroys an $80 million dollar aircraft, plus crew?


How much do you save on not doing maintenance on a multi-billion dollar ship and deploying it below commercial standards?

We don't know and we're going to pretend things are fine! Relax with your air worthiness guy! Adequate crewing levels is for risk adverse losers, and if things go wrong we'll just bury any reports and learn nothing.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> How much do you save on not doing maintenance on a multi-billion dollar ship and deploying it below commercial standards?
> 
> We don't know and we're going to pretend things are fine! Relax with your air worthiness guy! Adequate crewing levels is for risk adverse losers, and if things go wrong we'll just bury any reports and learn nothing.


I have tried to sell every Naval Officer that I have come into contact with on the long term benefits of a similar “sea worthiness“ program for the Navy. So far, without much luck.


----------



## Lumber (28 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I have tried to sell every Naval Officer that I have come into contact with on the long term benefits of a similar “sea worthiness“ program for the Navy. So far, without much luck.


They've gone the opposite direction. The Navy now have MBS 'Lite'.

The navy will continue putting ships to sea until one blows up or a bunch of people. 

I don't know if I shared this anecdote before, but one of my Engineers was part of a working group of NTOs that was assigned to figure out how they could get the CPFs to last until... some year in the future, I can't remember, 2040? 

Anyways, they did a lot of research and analysis and did their due diligence and came back with a report that said in order to get the CPFs to last that long, they would need to tie-up two CPFs _now _and take the maintenance budget and hours that they would have incurred and spread it out throughout the rest of the remaining CPFs.

Apparently the response was "Thank you, that is _not _happening. Now, take that brain power and figure out how to force generate an extra high-readiness CPF on each coast every year, because that _is _happening."


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I have tried to sell every Naval Officer that I have come into contact with on the long term benefits of a similar “sea worthiness“ program for the Navy. So far, without much luck.


We have had one for over a decade (with something less formal in place for decades before that), they just ignore it when it's inconvenient.

There is a whole 'Naval Material Management' programme, with the ship standards defined in the 'Material Baseline Standard' NAVORD (that we've been trying to get updated for over a year), which is basically intended to get ships to meet  the same functional requirements as SOLAS (ie safe to go from point A to B). Doesn't meet additional requirements for a combatant, just a basic safety standard.

We routinely sail ships below that, and don't necessarily even risk assess the defects that fall below the SOLAS standard. Or look at multiple defects together to see if there is a cumulative impact. Or consider contextual things like crew levels or training (unless it's to mitigate things broken).

Don't try and tell them we should probably exceed that standard for ships going to warzones though, and that maybe wifi and crew comfort isn't your biggest priority.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Sep 2022)

Seriously time for a crew to do a work stoppage......standing on the dock while the ship should be leaving port.


----------



## GK .Dundas (28 Sep 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Airworthiness approval.
> 
> How much money do you save if that $15 Walmart kettle catches fires inflight and destroys an $80 million dollar aircraft, plus crew?


But,you don't understand you've saved the taxpayer 15  whole dollars ! Now that's something you turn into a viable headline .
And is something you can turn into votes
Who cares about something that might happen , beside if an aircraft goes down.
Then, then you can blame the military for that .


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Sep 2022)

Wait, are we still talking about a COATS OCdt who's in trouble?


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Sep 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Seriously time for a crew to do a work stoppage......standing on the dock while the ship should be leaving port.



I believe that's called a mutiny.


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## Good2Golf (28 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> We have had one for over a decade (with something less formal in place for decades before that), they just ignore it when it's inconvenient.
> 
> There is a whole 'Naval Material Management' programme, with the ship standards defined in the 'Material Baseline Standard' NAVORD (that we've been trying to get updated for over a year), which is basically intended to get ships to meet  the same functional requirements as SOLAS (ie safe to go from point A to B). Doesn't meet additional requirements for a combatant, just a basic safety standard.
> 
> ...


That’s a serious leadership failure. 

To not have a seaworthiness program (or whatever the correct term is), is one thing. 

To HAVE a seaworthiness program, and disregard it is an entirely different issue. 

Folks can dis the airworthiness (operational, technical, investigative) program(s), but it’s borne of blood, and to its credit, the RCAF takes few things, if anything, more seriously.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I believe that's called a mutiny.


Call it a rose if you wish.....right is right


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## Remius (28 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I believe that's called a mutiny.


Which is what this thread is actually about!


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## Halifax Tar (28 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Which is what this thread is actually about!










Have we gone so far off the tracks that we've come back on the tracks ?


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## daftandbarmy (28 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Have we gone so far off the tracks that we've come back on the tracks ?



Genius!


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## Navy_Pete (28 Sep 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> That’s a serious leadership failure.
> 
> To not have a seaworthiness program (or whatever the correct term is), is one thing.
> 
> ...


To be fair air worthiness is much easier, as there is a much larger user base and support for doing it for specific airframes, with OEMs etc all involved. Big fan of the airworthiness program, but they do have a massive support infrastructure/culture behind it.

Submarines use the same level of scrutiny, but takes hundreds of people to figure out. The big difference is the operational side listens if the technical side says it's a bad idea, and frequently things just get fixed. On the surface side you have to prove it's unsafe, which is a ridiculous standard when everything is scheduled so last minute and HR to even look at the results is a premium.

You do have a lot more tolerance for things going poorly on a surface ship, but we still push way past it, and the RCN doesn't even follow it's own rules. If anyone thinks we have a robust risk management process in place they are kidding themselves; it's basic AF and we don't look at cumulative impacts, which is kind of important when you have 1500+ known defects per ship, plus a lot of other known issues that aren't written down, and then the things you don't know about or can't really quantify.

I think people refusing to sail would be a better way for things to come to a head than a literal disaster, as the Navy didn't even acknowledge that FRE was a best case scenario for that fire and most other ships wouldn't have been able to do the same response because of equipment issues and lack of people onboard.


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## Remius (28 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Have we gone so far off the tracks that we've come back on the tracks ?


Pretty sure we’ve now proven that if a thread derails for long enough it will somehow get back to its original subject.

Science!


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## Good2Golf (28 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> To be fair air worthiness is much easier, as there is a much larger user base and support for doing it for specific airframes, with OEMs etc all involved. Big fan of the airworthiness program, but they do have a massive support infrastructure/culture behind it.



I would say “more culturally supported” but I certainly wouldn’t say easier…the confluence area between airworthiness authorities, OEMs, suppliers, operators, maintainers and sustainers is not insignificant, nor easy to get firing on all cylinders.




Navy_Pete said:


> I think people refusing to sail would be a better way for things to come to a head than a literal disaster, as the Navy didn't even acknowledge that FRE was a best case scenario for that fire and most other ships wouldn't have been able to do the same response because of equipment issues and lack of people onboard.


Yup!  This one gets me…have/had personal interest in things FRE at the time, and that fact that it’s one of the ones in better condition is appalling. FRE, PRO, etc… 🤦🏻


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Sep 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Seriously time for a crew to do a work stoppage......standing on the dock while the ship should be leaving port.


Well that it is part of the RCN tradition and did lead to some changes.


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## NavyShooter (28 Sep 2022)

8 years ago, copies of the Mainguy report were appearing in messes on a certain RCN ship.  I found one in the C&PO's...turns out there were more left on photocopiers and in other various spots.  They never did find who was doing it.  

The parallels from the time of the report to current times were...shocking.  

Death of a thousand cuts though...a slice at a time is barely noticeable.


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## KevinB (28 Sep 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> 8 years ago, copies of the Mainguy report were appearing in messes on a certain RCN ship.  I found one in the C&PO's...turns out there were more left on photocopiers and in other various spots.  They never did find who was doing it.
> 
> The parallels from the time of the report to current times were...shocking.
> 
> Death of a thousand cuts though...a slice at a time is barely noticeable.


Boiling Frog…


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## kev994 (28 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> To be fair air worthiness is much easier, as there is a much larger user base and support for doing it for specific airframes, with OEMs etc all involved. Big fan of the airworthiness program, but they do have a massive support infrastructure/culture behind it.


It helps when there’s money to be made. For instance, we need to pay Lockmart a large sum if $ to figure out how much it’s going to cost to decide on the airworthiness of the proposed Walmart kettle. It’s going to take a lot of kettles to hit a break even point on that project.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Just use the RCAF's catering budget and go the route of the USAF:
> 
> Lawmaker Chides Air Force for Buying Expensive Coffee Cups​Lawmaker Chides Air Force for Buying Expensive Coffee Cups



Sen. Chuck Grassley...not sure what he knows, but he would be better to stick to that stuff.  I'm guessing...like shadow puppets n stuff.

😁

Hot cups for the win!!!

I'd love to see his expense account of his term in office.


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## OldSolduer (30 Sep 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> 8 years ago, copies of the Mainguy report were appearing in messes on a certain RCN ship.  I found one in the C&PO's...turns out there were more left on photocopiers and in other various spots.  They never did find who was doing it.
> 
> The parallels from the time of the report to current times were...shocking.
> 
> Death of a thousand cuts though...a slice at a time is barely noticeable.


I read some of that report and the RCN appeared to copy the RN - only worse.


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## Blackadder1916 (30 Sep 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> 8 years ago, copies of the *Mainguy report* were appearing in messes on a certain RCN ship.  I found one in the C&PO's...turns out there were more left on photocopiers and in other various spots.  They never did find who was doing it.
> 
> The parallels from the time of the report to current times were...shocking.
> 
> Death of a thousand cuts though...a slice at a time is barely noticeable.



And for those who may be interested in what it said.



			https://navalandmilitarymuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/CFB-Esquimalt-Museum-Mainguy-Report.pdf


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