# Surface Warfare Officer badge



## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

Someone sent me this early this evening.   Has anyone heard of this?  Naval Surface Warfare badge, 3 types including a separate one to denote command of a warship?


----------



## dapaterson (19 May 2022)

Yes, it also serves as a reward for NWO Movember competitions.


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 May 2022)

Haha, NWOs are becoming the vegans and crossfitters of Naval Officers (how do you know someone is a vegan/crossfitter/NWO?... Don't worry they will tell you)

Aside from being kind of irrelevant, as the pin also tracks with rank for the most part, it's aesthetically really poorly done. The design is bland AF, the 'waves' aren't, and have no use of perspective, and the little Boaty McBoatyface shape and maple leaf are both generic and boring.

They could have at least gone for flair with a bit of pizzazz, like and Art Deco style or something. The USN equivalent at least has some mythical creatures, we went with something super safe but didn't even execute it well.

It's too bad, lot of sweat and tears goes into the associated milestones, and they really could have done something actually cool with it (or you know, focused on things that people actually care about). Have yet to hear an NWO say they actually like it, so doesn't even seem like the 3% of the Navy that they make up (or whatever it is) actually wanted this pin in particular.


----------



## Furniture (19 May 2022)

The badge looks like a sad, back of a napkin version of the RAN Principal Warfare Officer badge combined with aircrew wings.  



What is interesting is we seem to have gone with the US model rather than the RN or RAN model for issuing the badge. Based on what I have read all BWKs will get a new piece of flair, in the RN and RAN the badge is awarded after competition of the ORO equivalent course.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (19 May 2022)

Just once... I would love to see us create a badge that wasn't made with the cheapest possible materials, went through someone with an actual background in graphic design, and didn't feel the need to encorporate the biggest God damn maple leaf possible in everything we do. 

If we want to do things, we shouldn't do them half-assed. This looks gaudy as hell.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 May 2022)

Can’t help but think that a beaver, holding a naval sword in its teeth, riding a jet-ski and waving a Stetson over its head as it jumps a wave top, would have looked better than this thing…


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

This one looks like a navy version of the old warrior badge the army did (poorly) back in the 90s.


----------



## eliminator (19 May 2022)

'Announced' here: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1526233423681134592
And a few folks spotted wearing them already in these photos: Facebook


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 May 2022)

eliminator said:


> 'Announced' here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can you wear all three of them at the same time like, you know, notches on your rifle butt


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

So, is the RCN coming up with a Surface Warfare Specialist badge, similar to the USN one for enlisted sailors?

🤔


----------



## FSTO (19 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> So, is the RCN coming up with a Surface Warfare Specialist badge, similar to the USN one for enlisted sailors?
> 
> 🤔


From what I understand there was/is discussions of Coxns getting a version. Don’t know where that discussion is now.


----------



## dapaterson (19 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> From what I understand there was/is discussions of Coxns getting a version. Don’t know where that discussion is now.


Have to delay it a year so someone else can also get "leading change" on their PER.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Have to delay it a year so someone else can also get "leading change" on their PER.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> From what I understand there was/is discussions of Coxns getting a version. Don’t know where that discussion is now.



I was hoping it would be qualification based not....bling for CPO1s - they get their Warrant.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (19 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> So, is the RCN coming up with a Surface Warfare Specialist badge, similar to the USN one for enlisted sailors?
> 
> 🤔


If that's the best they can do for the NWOs... I cringe to think what was left on the cutting room  floor for the CPOs..


----------



## dimsum (20 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Just once... I would love to see us create a badge that wasn't made with the cheapest possible materials, went through someone with an actual background in graphic design, and didn't feel the need to encorporate the biggest God damn maple leaf possible in everything we do.
> 
> If we want to do things, we shouldn't do them half-assed. This looks gaudy as hell.


Not new, but the "new" metal aircrew badges (when we went from gold to silver) are pretty nice, and incorporate metal from a crashed Halifax bomber.









						Metal from Second World War Squadron Halifax bomber badges available - Canadian Military Family Magazine
					

Earlier this year, CANFORGEN 025/21 announced quantities of full wing metal flying badges with metal from a 426 Squadron Halifax bomber shot down during the Second World War were available. The badges include Astronaut, Pilot, Air Combat Systems Officer, Flight Engineer, Airborne Electronic...




					www.cmfmag.ca


----------



## OldSolduer (20 May 2022)

Canada and its military have an inferiority complex therefore it has to overcompensate to feel better about itself.....


----------



## Grimey (20 May 2022)

eliminator said:


> 'Announced' here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bob is (2nd left).  Fella on the right is a submariner.

Gawd it’s awful.  Second only to the War of 1812 pin for cut-rate bling.


----------



## Grimey (20 May 2022)

Grimey said:


> Bob is (2nd left).  Fella on the right is a submariner.
> 
> Gawd it’s awful.  Second only to the War of 1812 pin for cut-rate bling.


Edited to add I just noticed it under the submariner’s medal rack.  Maybe best placed there where it’s least noticeable.


----------



## Grimey (20 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Not new, but the "new" metal aircrew badges (when we went from gold to silver) are pretty nice, and incorporate metal from a crashed Halifax bomber.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Something like that has been done before…








						Victoria Cross - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Furniture (20 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Canada and its military have an inferiority complex therefore it has to overcompensate to feel better about itself.....


I don't buy into the notion that giving troops badges, and medals is an "inferiority complex". Unless the RN, and RAN are also trying to be American? 

I think the old Canadian notion of having as little on our uniforms as possible so we don't look "too American", is just as backward as trying to ape everything the USA does. 

Will silly moustache "wings" for NWO's fix all the CAFs problems? No. Will no having badges on our uniforms fix all of the CAF's problems? No. 

Will moustache "wings" make a few people feel a bit better, and maybe "suck it up" for a few more years? Maybe... A French artilleryman is supposed to have said "A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of coloured ribbon"...


----------



## Mick (21 May 2022)

Any idea what badge VAdm Topshee is wearing here at his CoC ceremony?  VAdm Auchterlonie is wearing one as well.


----------



## McG (21 May 2022)

Does wearing the surface warfare officer badge communicate anything that cannot be inferred between an individual’s rank and the sea service badge over the opposite pocket?


----------



## Booter (21 May 2022)

Mick said:


> View attachment 70897
> 
> Any idea what badge VAdm Topshee is wearing here at his CoC ceremony?  VAdm Auchterlonie is wearing one as well.


Looks like an enamel ships crest? I don’t think I’ve seen that before


----------



## Gorgo (21 May 2022)

_sigh_  Another silly badge...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

Mick said:


> View attachment 70897
> 
> Any idea what badge VAdm Topshee is wearing here at his CoC ceremony?  VAdm Auchterlonie is wearing one as well.



I don’t see it in the dress regs.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (21 May 2022)

No idea what type of animal that is but it is definitely not a ship's crest. Besides, we don't wear ship's crest with the DEU, and admirals don't have a ship that they wear the crest of anyway as they are not considered ship's company, even when embarked.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> No idea what type of animal that is but it is definitely not a ship's crest. Besides, we don't wear ship's crest with the DEU, and admirals don't have a ship that they wear the crest of anyway as they are not considered ship's company, even when embarked.



So is this something he just decided to wear to bling it up some?  It’s not like a Ranger tan or something formally authorized for wear?


----------



## btrudy (21 May 2022)

It's curious that it's in the spot where a command badge would go, but of course A) the RCN as an org doesn't use command badges on their DEUs, B) that isn't it anyways, and C) Auchterlonie should be wearing the CJOC command badge there.


----------



## dimsum (21 May 2022)

McG said:


> Does wearing the surface warfare officer badge communicate anything that cannot be inferred between an individual’s rank and the sea service badge over the opposite pocket?


I suppose it's possible for an NWO to be promoted and never be an ORO...?

Not sure if they can make Cdr or higher without command, but I guess if they're staff officers it could happen.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (22 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Not sure if they can make Cdr or higher without command, but I guess if they're staff officers it could happen.



Or perhaps you're looking at an unlucky engineering Commander who had more than his/her fair share of sea tours.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> It's curious that it's in the spot where a command badge would go, but of course A) the RCN as an org doesn't use command badges on their DEUs, B) that isn't it anyways, and C) Auchterlonie should be wearing the CJOC command badge there.



I spent a bit of time googling “commonwealth navy dress uniform badges” and similar.  Nothing.

I thought maybe it would be in a bio or something.  I did find this pic with another entirely different badge I’ve never seen before.  

Blue badge under the ribbons in this article:





__





						On the job : Real people, real maritime experience
					





					www.dieselduck.info


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 May 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> No idea what type of animal that is but it is definitely not a ship's crest. Besides, we don't wear ship's crest with the DEU, and admirals don't have a ship that they wear the crest of anyway as they are not considered ship's company, even when embarked.



This badge is starting to come across as a “not part of authorized wear stuff but screw it I am wearing it anyways” kind…


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I spent a bit of time googling “commonwealth navy dress uniform badges” and similar.  Nothing.
> 
> I thought maybe it would be in a bio or something.  I did find this pic with another entirely different badge I’ve never seen before.
> 
> ...



In the article you link it's a NATO bage ships crews get while part of a NATO Maritime Group (Fleet). 

Side note he was my XO during that article.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> In the article you link it's a NATO bage ships crews get while part of a NATO Maritime Group (Fleet).
> 
> Side note he was my XO during that article.



Tks.  It’s a nice badge, I’ve always like the look of the ones that are on a leather patch like that.

Do you get to keep them?  They’d be nice in a shadow box for keepsakes.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 May 2022)

Yup we do.  And it's only worn while part of an SNMG.


----------



## FSTO (23 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> I suppose it's possible for an NWO to be promoted and never be an ORO...?
> 
> Not sure if they can make Cdr or higher without command, but I guess if they're staff officers it could happen.


Yep


----------



## Blackadder1916 (23 May 2022)

Mick said:


> View attachment 70897
> 
> Any idea what badge VAdm Topshee is wearing here at his CoC ceremony?  VAdm Auchterlonie is wearing one as well.



I think it is the badge that International Military Students who attend courses at the US Naval War College receive and may wear while attending that institution.  Topshee and Auchterlonie both appear to have been students there in the past.


----------



## dapaterson (23 May 2022)

Is it authorized for wear per the dress manual, or is this another GOFO freestyle "I can do what I want" moment?


----------



## Booter (23 May 2022)

That’s the one- it’s a trident not the NATO star


----------



## Mick (23 May 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> I think it is the badge that International Military Students who attend courses at the US Naval War College receive and may wear while attending that institution.  Topshee and Auchterlonie both appear to have been students there in the past.
> 
> 
> View attachment 70954 View attachment 70955


I think you're correct.  Strange that they're both wearing that badge to a totally unrelated CoC ceremony...


----------



## Underway (23 May 2022)

McG said:


> Does wearing the surface warfare officer badge communicate anything that cannot be inferred between an individual’s rank and the sea service badge over the opposite pocket?


Yes.  It communicates that you have a BWK, done an ORO tour or been a CO of a ship (I wonder if PRes Stone Frigates count?).

All hard sea trade officers have the same cap badge and SSE as NWO's do, so just looking for a SSE colour or cap badge doesn't really tell you much different as you could be an Engineer who's sailed a lot (or CFR'd etc...).


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Is it authorized for wear per the dress manual, or is this another GOFO freestyle "I can do what I want" moment?


GOFO Free-for-all 😁


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 May 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> I think it is the badge that International Military Students who attend courses at the US Naval War College receive and may wear while attending that institution.



THIS trivial bullshit is part of the needed culture change.  "Following fucking orders" for GAFO ranks.

Maybe I should slap on my VP International or Lockheed pins to my DEU.  "just because"...


----------



## Blackadder1916 (23 May 2022)

It seems that it's not only the US Navy War College that presents a pin to graduating foreign officers for wear on the uniform.


__
		https://flic.kr/p/2nk8x3w



> Army War College Commandant Maj. Gen. David Hill recognizes international fellows for their year at the Army War College with *the USAWC pin that can be worn on their uniforms if applicable.* The event was held at Quarters One, the commandant's residence, May 10, 2022.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> THIS trivial bullshit is part of the needed culture change.  "Following fucking orders" for GAFO ranks.
> 
> Maybe I should slap on my VP International or Lockheed pins to my DEU.  "just because"...



Meanwhile, Army envy enters the chat


----------



## OceanBonfire (24 May 2022)

Per NAVORD 5027-2:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 May 2022)

Holy shit show ribbon bar placement.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 May 2022)

I found a pic of the PAO who approves example dress pictures in the RCN before orders are Dist…

“Those ribbons look perfect to me…print that and send it out to the Fleet”

😂


----------



## Navy_Pete (24 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Is it authorized for wear per the dress manual, or is this another GOFO freestyle "I can do what I want" moment?


No, only authorized for anyone in a Navy DEU, so not even sure how that works. Probably like the change of rank where they couldn't be bothered to update anything officially.

So if someone component transfers out of a Navy trade, they can't wear it anymore, so it's like some kind of weird environmental pin. Which is interesting when they work for a non-RCN organization (like VCDS, CJOC, etc etc). I guess people just pretend it's okay?

It's like when NAVORDS come out with specific direction, and then they are surprised when people working at ADM(Mat) don't automatically follow it for things like PERs etc.

Alternately, can someone who transfers out of the Navy who has earned the pin still wear it if they work in RCN lines?

At some point I can see someone just not wearing it, on account of it being ugly AF and poorly executed, and someone getting brought to heel for trying to take them to task.


----------



## Underway (24 May 2022)

Oh good, I don't have to wear it.  I'm not an NWO.  I guess that also makes all my previous arguments to it being a qualification badge BS. Mmmm humble pie.


----------



## Good2Golf (24 May 2022)

So it’s not a real MOSID qualification insignia then right, since you can’t wear it out of a hard RCN org position, even though you would still be a NWO?  Yet an NWO would keep wearing their submariner’s dolphins or ship’s diver helmet even on a purple staff tour, say to CANMILPERSGENCOM?


----------



## Underway (24 May 2022)

Entitlement says NWO.  As long as you don't change trades you are entitled to wear it.  Soon as you change trades that entitlement ends.  Doesn't matter what organization you work for.  (I'm talking about the NWO Badge).


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 May 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Per NAVORD 5027-2:



The RCN should just copy the New York police and tack one of those 'bling-billboards' to their left chest:


----------



## Navy_Pete (24 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Entitlement says NWO.  As long as you don't change trades you are entitled to wear it.  Soon as you change trades that entitlement ends.  Doesn't matter what organization you work for.  (I'm talking about the NWO Badge).


That's what I meant, just wasn't clear. Still makes absolutely zero sense.

If someone earns a clearance diver badge, jump wings etc  they can still wear them regardless of what trade/element they end up in. This is just standards RCN stupidity, good thing our ships are in great shape and fully crewed with no issues to be sorted out.

Even though this didn't take much actual work (virtually none, based on the quality of the pin) still pretty much any time they spent on this could have been better spent doing anything else. If they were going to half ass a pin for a core trade progression milestone they should have started with the various NCM ones, not the NWOs. I don't think anyone wants any, but really just seems like an NWO dick swinging item for the wet/dry lists that have started. Which is redundant really, and if someone needs a golden moustache for people to know they were a CO, probably weren't a good one (but not bad enough to make the paper).


----------



## dapaterson (24 May 2022)

But what do you really think?


----------



## dimsum (24 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Entitlement says NWO.  As long as you don't change trades you are entitled to wear it.  Soon as you change trades that entitlement ends.  Doesn't matter what organization you work for.  (I'm talking about the NWO Badge).


I thought as long as you wore a Naval DEU, you can wear it even if you change trades?

So for example, former NWO BWK becomes Naval Int.  They can still wear the bronze moustache.




Navy_Pete said:


> If someone earns a clearance diver badge, jump wings etc they can still wear them regardless of what trade/element they end up in. This is just standards RCN stupidity, good thing our ships are in great shape and fully crewed with no issues to be sorted out.


Yep.  There are a lot of former NWOs in other elements.  I'm surprised they didn't allow them to wear the smaller moustache.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> No, only authorized for anyone in a Navy DEU, so not even sure how that works. Probably like the change of rank where they couldn't be bothered to update anything officially.
> 
> So if someone component transfers out of a Navy trade, they can't wear it anymore, so it's like some kind of weird environmental pin. Which is interesting when they work for a non-RCN organization (like VCDS, CJOC, etc etc). I guess people just pretend it's okay?
> 
> ...



Wait. Are you referring to the Surface Warfare Badge or that college kid badge the to FOs were wearing (that isn’t in the dress regs at all)?

I think some people are talking about the Surface Warfare badge and others the blue college kid badge.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 May 2022)

Will the surface warfare badge be added to the Specialist badges portion of 265, or can we just add things to DEUs at will?

I’ve got a few need badges on my sash from Cubs that would like nice sewn up and down my arms!  🙂


----------



## dimsum (25 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Wait. Are you referring to the Surface Warfare Badge or that college kid badge the to FOs were wearing (that isn’t in the dress regs at all)?
> 
> I think some people are talking about the Surface Warfare badge and others the blue college kid badge.


I think they're referring to the Moustache.  

But yeah, there was a split where people were referring to different things.


----------



## Underway (25 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> That's what I meant, just wasn't clear. Still makes absolutely zero sense.
> 
> If someone earns a clearance diver badge, jump wings etc  they can still wear them regardless of what trade/element they end up in. This is just standards RCN stupidity, good thing our ships are in great shape and fully crewed with no issues to be sorted out.
> 
> Even though this didn't take much actual work (virtually none, based on the quality of the pin) still pretty much any time they spent on this could have been better spent doing anything else. If they were going to half ass a pin for a core trade progression milestone they should have started with the various NCM ones, not the NWOs. I don't think anyone wants any, but really just seems like an NWO dick swinging item for the wet/dry lists that have started. Which is redundant really, and if someone needs a golden moustache for people to know they were a CO, probably weren't a good one (but not bad enough to make the paper).


Trade milestones for NCMS are recognized with promotion.  If you achieve the qualification you can be promoted.*

Trade milestones listed for these NWO badges are not promotable gateways (though they add points to the PER).  I do not know what LCdr/Cdr NWO's have for qualifications especially when you mix in PRes.  Plenty of MCDV CO's and AOPS CO's will not have been an ORO.*

Basically we are all losing our s*** over what is essentially, at its core, a *trade badge*.  
NWO SLt and above will have it (bronze minimum), Engineers will not. Loggies will still have their different cap badge. 

As for wet/dry that balloon was popped well over 10 years ago.  When the _CMS_ sent out a letter to all _MARS_ officers regarding the career progression opportunity differences between those unofficial lists.  Basically spoke to the elephant in the room.

*I know @Navy_Pete you know this, I'm not being condescending, just being extra clear for the public forum's sake as others may not know it.


----------



## dapaterson (25 May 2022)

That the RCN can with a straight face claim personnel shortages and keep a list of NWOs who won't go to sea...

But multi colour moustache badge is the answer


----------



## FSTO (25 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> That the RCN can with a straight face claim personnel shortages and keep a list of NWOs who won't go to sea...
> 
> But multi colour moustache badge is the answer


Regarding wet/dry list. I saw the writing on the wall that I had no chance for getting command, but I had other qualities that were useful on the staff side. I will still go to sea if the opportunities are there, but at my age, it'll be the Orca's only.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> That the RCN can with a straight face claim personnel shortages and keep a list of NWOs who won't go to sea...
> 
> But multi colour moustache badge is the answer


There is a pretty large cohort of NWOs that won't/can't go to sea anymore.  

My favorite are the ones that are morbidly obese and DAGed RED during COVID because we can't guarantee they aren't a massive liability at sea.

They also can't fit in bunker gear so they end up being a useless oxygen thief in the section bases in an emergency.  Nothing says leadership like watching others go save the ship for you 🤣


----------



## Underway (25 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> That the RCN can with a straight face claim personnel shortages and keep a list of NWOs who won't go to sea...


There's no "list" per say.  Just that there are only so many positions/promotions that one can get without having the previous seagoing experience. 

It's more of a wet vs dry career path.  If one is happy to stay at their current rank and work for the RCN then they are happy to have you.  Lots of people top out in their careers.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> Regarding wet/dry list. I saw the writing on the wall that I had no chance for getting command, but I had other qualities that were useful on the staff side. I will still go to sea if the opportunities are there, but at my age, it'll be the Orca's only.


Don't worry, when I create my own maritime militia in the coming global apocalypse, you'll be first up for the newly formed St Pierre de Miquelon Admiralty Board 😁


----------



## Underway (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Don't worry, when I create my own maritime militia in the coming global apocalypse, you'll be first up for the newly formed St Pierre de Miquelon Admiralty Board 😁


During the 2008 recession, a number of us PRes sailors were considering a naval security service to escort ships through the Red Sea and Straits of Hormuz.  Then the mess closed.


----------



## dapaterson (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Don't worry, when I create my own maritime militia in the coming global apocalypse, you'll be first up for the newly formed St Pierre de Miquelon Admiralty Board 😁


Find yourself a small island, a cunning engineer good at tunnelling, and get yourself a History channel show!


----------



## dapaterson (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There is a pretty large cohort of NWOs that won't/can't go to sea anymore.
> 
> My favorite are the ones that are morbidly obese and DAGed RED during COVID because we can't guarantee they aren't a massive liability at sea.
> 
> They also can't fit in bunker gear so they end up being a useless oxygen thief in the section bases in an emergency.  Nothing says leadership like watching others go save the ship for you 🤣


But retention, right?


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Don't worry, when I create my own maritime militia in the coming global apocalypse, you'll be first up for the newly formed St Pierre de Miquelon Admiralty Board 😁



Can I run the Supply branch for you ?  First Sea Lord Victualing and Stores ?  Has a nice ring  



Underway said:


> Trade milestones for NCMS are recognized with promotion.  If you achieve the qualification you can be promoted.*
> 
> Trade milestones listed for these NWO badges are not promotable gateways (though they add points to the PER).  I do not know what LCdr/Cdr NWO's have for qualifications especially when you mix in PRes.  Plenty of MCDV CO's and AOPS CO's will not have been an ORO.*
> 
> ...



If this helps with retention and addresses the problems that some recent blunt and alarming email traffic has brought to light then bully for all!

Cultural change has always been lead by new badges!


----------



## Good2Golf (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> They also can't fit in bunker gear so they end up being a useless oxygen thief in the section bases in an emergency. Nothing says leadership like watching others go save the ship for you 🤣


Could they perhaps be used as ‘conformal shoring’ for DC?  Form-fitting, expansive, waterproof, etc.  win-win for the DC Team!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 May 2022)

Underway said:


> During the 2008 recession, a number of us PRes sailors were considering a naval security service to escort ships through the Red Sea and Straits of Hormuz.  Then the mess closed.


There are a couple of pretty established companies already doing that unfortunately:






						Ambrey - Trusted global partner for risk management solutions.
					

Ambrey Intelligence - We offer tailored products to help you manage uncertainty, leveraging privileged sources and proprietary methodologies to deliver original content exactly when you need it.- Ambrey Advisory - We ensure that best practice, assurance and continuous improvement underpin your...




					ambrey.com
				









						Perun Hrs | Human Resources Solutions in Security Industry
					

Perun Human Resources (HRS) is a human resources company specialized in the security and defense industry. Training courses, Certification, Career with Perun HRS




					www.perun-hrs.com
				












						Private Security Company | Security Risk Management | Neptune P2P Group
					

Market leaders in providing maritime security and security risk management services across the globe and in high-risk & complex environments.




					neptunep2pgroup.com
				









						Home
					






					seagullmaritimeltd.com
				





Market is very saturated at the moment and it's incredibly difficult for Canadians to break in because we lack the credentials and are competing with Royal Marine Commandos, Ex French + Dutch Naval Infantry, etc.  Not to mention the plethora of Eastern Europeans that will work for pennies on the dollar and don't come calling with a list of extensive demands LOL.

Generally, the requirements are that you're ex-combat arms and have experience in the special operating/high risk area.

Perun HRS advertises job openings for different nationalities on their facebook page.  You just need to send them a CV and they will contact you if they are interested.

Training for their Maritime Security Officers takes place in Poland.


----------



## Underway (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There are a couple of pretty established companies already doing that unfortunately:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh no you miss the entire point.  We bring our own ship and hunt down the pirates like privateers.  Its no fun riding in someone else's ship shooting small arms.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Oh no you miss the entire point.  We bring our own ship and hunt down the pirates like privateers.  Its no fun riding in someone else's ship shooting small arms.


You'd need a letter of marque but I am sure you know this. 

Where do I apply?


----------



## Underway (25 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You'd need a letter of marque but I am sure you know this.
> 
> Where do I apply?


Do you know how to use a 50 cal?  You're hired.  Letter of Marque is a tougher thing but we could get one from a lot of places like Denmark as Maersk is run out of there, or some landlocked country assuming that we cut them into the profits. How does Kazhakistan sound?

The question is do we go the Q ship route and small boats boarding actions, or do we go with a faster ship and just run them down and shoot their boats?


----------



## dapaterson (25 May 2022)

So, the NAVORD cites QR&O 4.12 as its authority.  Which grants commanders of commands authority to issue orders to their subordinates.

A NWO posted out of the RCN is no longer under the command of the RCN.

Does that mean they have to remove the non-heraldic moustache?


----------



## KevinB (25 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Do you know how to use a 50 cal?  You're hired.  Letter of Marque is a tougher thing but we could get one from a lot of places like Denmark as Maersk is run out of there, or some landlocked country assuming that we cut them into the profits. How does Kazhakistan sound?
> 
> The question is do we go the Q ship route and small boats boarding actions, or do we go with a faster ship and just run them down and shoot their boats?


Q Ship based on a seized Russian Mega Yacht (most of them have pretty impressive firepower already.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Do you know how to use a 50 cal?  You're hired.  Letter of Marque is a tougher thing but we could get one from a lot of places like Denmark as Maersk is run out of there, or some landlocked country assuming that we cut them into the profits. How does Kazhakistan sound?
> 
> The question is do we go the Q ship route and small boats boarding actions, or do we go with a faster ship and just run them down and shoot their boats?



I’m an old 50 guy from way back. I need a few days to reacquaint myself with it. 

Tactics I’ll leave to Navy guys. Get me there and let slip the dogs of war…

Come to think of it we might need a few 7.62 cal MGs as well


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> So, the NAVORD cites QR&O 4.12 as its authority.  Which grants commanders of commands authority to issue orders to their subordinates.
> 
> A NWO posted out of the RCN is no longer under the command of the RCN.
> 
> Does that mean they have to remove the non-heraldic moustache?



But they are still career managed by the RCN. 

It's an interesting quandary.


----------



## dapaterson (25 May 2022)

Not a quandary at all.  If a NWO is posted to CJOC, they are not under the RCN, and therefore RCN orders to RCN members under command if the RCN do not apply.

Half assed staff work by the RCN.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (25 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Oh no you miss the entire point.  We bring our own ship and hunt down the pirates like privateers.  Its no fun riding in someone else's ship shooting small arms.


There was an American Company that tried this called AdvanFort that had this setup.  They made some booboos and got all their crap seized in India and all their operatives arrested


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Not a quandary at all.  If a NWO is posted to CJOC, they are not under the RCN, and therefore RCN orders to RCN members under command if the RCN do not apply.
> 
> Half assed staff work by the RCN.



I bet you're tons of fun at parties. 

Honestly, as much as I think the whole badge is silly; who cares ?  You're picking fly shit out of pepper. 

I have no doubt the proper regulations will be adjusted with time and you can untie your knotted knickers then.


----------



## dapaterson (25 May 2022)

Like the naval NCM ranks that the RCN hasn't sorted out yet?

There is a legal and regulatory framework that governs the CAF.  Interesting, given your posting history, how lackadaisical your approach is to leaders telling people that the rules don't matter


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Like the naval NCM ranks that the RCN hasn't sorted out yet?
> 
> There is a legal and regulatory framework that governs the CAF.  Interesting, given your posting history, how lackadaisical your approach is to leaders telling people that the rules don't matter



There has been a movement to change/adjust the RCN NCM ranks for years.  Honestly I would love to see something more traditional but I'm not sure there is much traction for this ATM, and its not that huge a deal for me.  Nor do I think the rest of the RCN NCMs care very much.  I sit to be corrected though.

Absolutely there is regulatory framework that governs the CAF and I have no doubt the RCN received informal blessings, at least, from that framework to proceed.  I would imagine it went something like this:

_Requesting Authority:
"Hey, this badge is approved and stock is available, mind if we push it out for distribution and let the regulations catch up later ?"

Approving Authority:
"Sure, go ahead; make it happen."_

Or are you proposing the RCN just went out and did this without the blessing or consolation of any dress committees or very senior leadership in the CAF ?

You will of course forgive me if I don't equate this NWO badge with our (CAF) issues involving sexual assault and other grievous abuses of power.  This badge is really comical at its core and means very little to anyone with exception for those who may wear it.  But hey if it works to improve the QoL for the NWOs, then more power to them.


----------



## KevinB (25 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> There has been a movement to change/adjust the RCN NCM ranks for years.  Honestly I would love to see something more traditional but I'm not sure there is much traction for this ATM, and its not that huge a deal for me.  Nor do I think the rest of the RCN NCMs care very much.  I sit to be corrected though.
> 
> Absolutely there is regulatory framework that governs the CAF and I have no doubt the RCN received informal blessings, at least, from that framework to proceed.  I would imagine it went something like this:
> 
> ...


I took it more as to your rather very starchy conformance to a rules based process to acquisitions etc - and your rather happy go lucky take on the badge.
  There seem to be too very different approaches going in in your replies...


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> I took it more as to your rather very starchy conformance to a rules based process to acquisitions etc - and your rather happy go lucky take on the badge.
> There seem to be too very different approaches going in in your replies...



That's a fair critique.  I guess I never conflated the two.  But its a fair critique, ill take it. 

I also refuse to believe the RCN pushed this out with out higher authority giving some sort of blessing, informal or formal.


----------



## Underway (25 May 2022)

Same argument for Naval Trades working in an Army environment.  Which combats do we wear?  RCN says you don't put on CADPAT.  Army CO says, get your ass to stores and draw some CADPAT. Stores says we don't have enough CADPAT for navy types so won't issue it on some logistic directive.  Army CO says why didn't you get CADPAT when I ordered it... and round and round it goes.

Never have the same problem with Army types onboard ship.  Are you posted to ship?  Here's your pile of gear you have no idea how to wear.  I've helped more than one purple trade figure out how to operate a floater jacket.


----------



## Underway (25 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There was an American Company that tried this called AdvanFort that had this setup.  They made some booboos and got all their crap seized in India and all their operatives arrested


We figured by the end of the third pitcher that there would be some legally sticky situations and then called some cabs and did a run ashore.  Hence why you can't really be a mercenary group you have to have national backing from someone to fly their flag, thus be able to tote around 50 cals etc...


----------



## dimsum (25 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Nor do I think the rest of the RCN NCMs care very much. I sit to be corrected though.


More like "there will be a riot if _replacing_ _rank badges_ come up before housing" (to tack it onto the PLD, etc thread). 

And frankly, I'd understand.  I've always been a proponent that the CAF can advance multiple files at once, but unless the affected parties (NCMs in this case) really want it, replacing the current ranks seems like a waste of staff resources.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> More like "there will be a riot if _replacing_ _rank badges_ come up before housing" (to tack it onto the PLD, etc thread).
> 
> And frankly, I'd understand.  I've always been a proponent that the CAF can advance multiple files at once, but unless the affected parties (NCMs in this case) really want it, replacing the current ranks seems like a waste of staff resources.



I'm just delighted that the abbreviation for this thread is SWAB...

... you know, as in 'the deck'.

Taxi!


----------



## btrudy (26 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Same argument for Naval Trades working in an Army environment.  Which combats do we wear?  RCN says you don't put on CADPAT.  Army CO says, get your ass to stores and draw some CADPAT. Stores says we don't have enough CADPAT for navy types so won't issue it on some logistic directive.  Army CO says why didn't you get CADPAT when I ordered it... and round and round it goes.
> 
> Never have the same problem with Army types onboard ship.  Are you posted to ship?  Here's your pile of gear you have no idea how to wear.  I've helped more than one purple trade figure out how to operate a floater jacket.



It's not just the RCN which says that. It's CANFORGEN 198/09 which says that. Army COs don't get to just ignore CANFORGENs because they feel like it. The regulation is quite clear, that naval pers are only allowed to wear CADPAT (and you're only allowed to direct them to do so) when there's a bone fide operational reason, such as conducting a field exercise.

Much like the same reason that Army pers on ship can be given NCDs; because being on ship they need to be wearing the uniform designed for fire protection.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> It's not just the RCN which says that. It's CANFORGEN 198/09 which says that. Army COs don't get to just ignore CANFORGENs because they feel like it. The regulation is quite clear, that naval pers are only allowed to wear CADPAT (and you're only allowed to direct them to do so) when there's a bone fide operational reason, such as conducting a field exercise.
> 
> Much like the same reason that Army pers on ship can be given NCDs; because being on ship they need to be wearing the uniform designed for fire protection.



I was posted with the Army when that CANFORGEN was released.  It was disregarded.  And I was most definitely not allowed to wear NCDs as my work dress.


----------



## dimsum (26 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I was posted with the Army when that CANFORGEN was released.  It was disregarded.  And I was most definitely not allowed to wear NCDs as my work dress.


That seems more like the local CoC disregarding orders.

Ya know...like the initial BEARDFORGEN roll-out.


----------



## Navy_Pete (26 May 2022)

In my personal experience the RCN is pretty crap at getting official policy updated after a temporary order was issued. I doubt there will be any follow up, and if they really had higher order support this could have come out as a CANFORGEN authorizing it on all uniforms/elements for people with the qualification. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> In my personal experience the RCN is pretty crap at getting official policy updated after a temporary order was issued. I doubt there will be any follow up, and if they really had higher order support this could have come out as a CANFORGEN authorizing it on all uniforms/elements for people with the qualification. 🤷‍♂️



If so I would hope the next higher command would come out and slap this down.  

Let's also not forget it takes us decades to put in new uniform pieces.  New NCDs I'm looking at you.


----------



## dimsum (26 May 2022)

I was actually at the office today and saw the moustache in the wild.

Honestly, it looks fine.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (26 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I was posted with the Army when that CANFORGEN was released.  It was disregarded.  And I was most definitely not allowed to wear NCDs as my work dress.


Who wants to looks like a bus driver?  CADPAT or Coveralls are the superior form of dress.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Who wants to looks like a bus driver?  CADPAT or Coveralls are the superior form of dress.



Lol I know I'm in the minority but I like the current NCDs


----------



## Furniture (26 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Lol I know I'm in the minority but I like the current NCDs


I'm 100% with you on that, I don't understand why people pretend CADPAT is the pinnacle of comfort in uniforms. I'm glad the only time I ever have to put CADPAT on again is for my trips to Alert or the NWS.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (26 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm 100% with you on that, I don't understand why people pretend CADPAT is the pinnacle of comfort in uniforms. I'm glad the only time I ever have to put CADPAT on again is for my trips to Alert or the NWS.


Coveralls are my personal favorite.  Better for Action/Emergency Stations as well, improves response/close up time 😎


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Coveralls are my personal favorite.  Better for Action/Emergency Stations as well, improves response/close up time 😎



But just try to take a quick dump...


----------



## Furniture (26 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Coveralls are my personal favorite.  Better for Action/Emergency Stations as well, improves response/close up time 😎


In a perfect world I'd agree, but after 21 years of wearing CAF uniforms I strongly disagree. The CAF issues uniforms in two sizes, and one quality standard... 

I have three pairs of NCD pants that are theoretically the same "size", and none of them fit the same, the NCD shirts are only slightly better... My CADPAT is even worse than the NCDs.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Trade milestones for NCMS are recognized with promotion.  If you achieve the qualification you can be promoted.*
> 
> Trade milestones listed for these NWO badges are not promotable gateways (though they add points to the PER).  I do not know what LCdr/Cdr NWO's have for qualifications especially when you mix in PRes.  Plenty of MCDV CO's and AOPS CO's will not have been an ORO.*
> 
> Basically we are all losing our s*** over what is essentially, at its core, a *trade badge*









😄


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> I was actually at the office today and saw the moustache in the wild.
> 
> Honestly, it looks fine.



If you're going to make stuff up, it has to be _somewhat_ believable...not this far-fetched stuff...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> But just try to take a quick dump...



...in the bathroom on an Aurora...in turbulence...

(our urinal is lovingly referred to as the Stanley Cup, or R2D2.  They leak sometimes so that's likely not spilled coffee your sleeves are dragging thru...)


----------



## btrudy (26 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Who wants to looks like a bus driver?  CADPAT or Coveralls are the superior form of dress.



I'll be over here with my sleeves rolled up and not ever having to think about boot bands.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (26 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> I'll be over here with my sleeves rolled up and not ever having to think about boot bands.


I don't wear boot bands 😉 .... big fan of the low blouse 😁

The Brits know what's up:


----------



## Underway (26 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I don't wear boot bands 😉 .... big fan of the low blouse 😁
> 
> The Brits know what's up:


Legion magazine had an article once with a side paragraph comparing how each of the infantry Regiments in Afghanistan wore their combats.  RCR was far too tidy (blousing in the desert??), Van Doo's looked like they had their combats tailored, and the PPCLI looked like snowboarders.  I completely agree with this analysis.


----------



## Grimey (26 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> Regarding wet/dry list. I saw the writing on the wall that I had no chance for getting command, but I had other qualities that were useful on the staff side. I will still go to sea if the opportunities are there, but at my age, it'll be the Orca's only.


You can be my A1 again any day.


----------



## KevinB (26 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Legion magazine had an article once with a side paragraph comparing how each of the infantry Regiments in Garrison wore their combats.  RCR was far too tidy,  Van Doo's looked like they had their combats tailored, and the PPCLI looked like snowboarders.  I completely agree with this analysis.


FIFY


----------



## dimsum (26 May 2022)

So going back to the topic, is that also going to be on NCD (and CADPAT if worn)?   

Might as well go full NASCAR


----------



## FSTO (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> So going back to the topic, is that also going to be on NCD (and CADPAT if worn)?
> 
> Might as well go full NASCAR


You bet it’ll be on the NCD’s because nobody on the ship has a clue who the old man/woman is, or the ORO’s, or the BWK’s are without some symbol on their chest! 

Which brings me to my old man rant of the day. I listen in on the RCN Mentoring Initiative on teams yesterday. It was actually really good and there are some crackerjack Master Killicks out there. But then the Navo of one of the MARLANT ships introduced herself with “Lieutenant Navy”. JFC, you’re in a forum with 99.9999% RCN, we all know you’re a 2 ringer so don’t add in the obvious. I really wanted to say something but, this was s forum on empowerment, culture change, inclusiveness so I doubt if a rage text from the white haired crusty MARS officer would have been received well. 
But bloody hell I wish the RCN Lt’s would stop that.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> You bet it’ll be on the NCD’s because nobody on the ship has a clue who the old man/woman is, or the ORO’s, or the BWK’s are without some symbol on their chest!
> 
> Which brings me to my old man rant of the day. I listen in on the RCN Mentoring Initiative on teams yesterday. It was actually really good and there are some crackerjack Master Killicks out there. But then the Navo of one of the MARLANT ships introduced herself with “Lieutenant Navy”. JFC, you’re in a forum with 99.9999% RCN, we all know you’re a 2 ringer so don’t add in the obvious. I really wanted to say something but, this was s forum on empowerment, culture change, inclusiveness so I doubt if a rage text from the white haired crusty MARS officer would have been received well.
> But bloody hell I wish the RCN Lt’s would stop that.



We were wrapping up our year long French course so I missed that teams meeting. 

I don't know how we beat that stupid Lieutenant Navy thing...

*Slight Derail*

Did you take notice that we have 2 Formation Master Sailors *and* now a Command Master Sailor ?

If the MS and below are representing themselves what is the role of the C&POs now ?  Have we really just become middle managers ?  Jesus wept.  Thank god its Friday and I can drown my sorrows in Molos and Toller around the camp fire tonight.


----------



## FSTO (27 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We were wrapping up our year long French course so I missed that teams meeting.
> 
> I don't know how we beat that stupid Lieutenant Navy thing...
> 
> ...


Yea, the formation and command MS thing surprised me. Oh well, we have to ape our colonial masters correct?


----------



## OldSolduer (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Might as well go full NASCAR


Then the ships can only turn to port - or left for us landlubbers.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> Yea, the formation and command MS thing surprised me. Oh well, we have to ape our colonial masters correct?



I hear you.  To me if the MS and below feel they are being represented by the C&POs so poorly that they need their own command positions then we, C&POs, need to suck back and reload on how we are doing business and reestablish our role properly.


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> Yea, the formation and command MS thing surprised me. Oh well, we have to ape our colonial masters correct?


I don't understand the context?  Does the RN (I'm assuming you're referring to them as the "colonial masters") have that?


----------



## FSTO (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> I don't understand the context?  Does the RN (I'm assuming you're referring to them as the "colonial masters") have that?


No young Luke, have you not noticed that our dominion transferred from British Empire to the US Empire decades ago?


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I hear you.  To me if the MS and below feel they are being represented by the C&POs so poorly that they need their own command positions then we, C&POs, need to suck back and reload on how we are doing business and reestablish our role properly.



You mean the 'Lower Deck Lawyers' now have a job description, an office and a tee time?  

That's pure genius: co-opting the trouble makers


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> No young Luke, have you not noticed that our dominion transferred from British Empire to the US Empire decades ago?


Canada?  Yes.

RCN?  Not so much...


----------



## FSTO (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Canada?  Yes.
> 
> RCN?  Not so much...


6 instead of 8 buttons on the officer jackets.

I rest my case!


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> You mean the 'Lower Deck Lawyers' now have a job description, an office and a tee time?
> 
> That's pure genius: co-opting the trouble makers



To be clear I am not in opposition to a strong and smart MS and below component.  I simply take much pride in my role as the promoter and protector of their health and welfare, its a great and sacred privileged to be given such a role.  

But if they don't see us as doing that effectively anymore then we need to fix that.  I want C&POs not wanna be officers. 

We are drifting way off topic, mea culpa.  Forgive me, I am very passionate about that part of my job.


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> 6 instead of 8 buttons on the officer jackets.
> 
> I rest my case!


Don't give them any more ideas.


----------



## FSTO (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Don't give them any more ideas.


----------



## dapaterson (27 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> 6 instead of 8 buttons on the officer jackets.
> 
> I rest my case!


Let's go for a good old Canadian compromise, and settle on seven!


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> To be clear I am not in opposition to a strong and smart MS and below component.  I simply take much pride in my role as the promoter and protector of their health and welfare, its a great and sacred privileged to be given such a role.
> 
> But if they don't see us as doing that effectively anymore then we need to fix that. * I want C&POs not wanna be officers.*
> 
> We are drifting way off topic, mea culpa.  Forgive me, I am very passionate about that part of my job.



My hobby horse enters the chat...

Co-option of the SNCO ranks by the 'Corporation' over the past couple of decades has contributed to the rise of a Mini-Me Commissioned Officer culture, with all the associated perils to discipline, personnel management, professional development etc.


----------



## Underway (27 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> FIFY


Fight how you train?  I've worked with all three in the field.  In the RCRs defense I took only one patrol with the new RCR RSM to realize that bloused boots in the desert were just too friggin hot, and that the pants were actually designed to allow for airflow while keeping dirt out of your boots when unbloused.

It's like they designed the combats to be functional or something, and the army decided that isn't how they want to use them.


----------



## Underway (27 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Co-option of the SNCO ranks by the 'Corporation' over the past couple of decades has contributed to the rise of a Mini-Me Commissioned Officer culture, with all the associated perils to discipline, personnel management, professional development etc.


Sometimes you post things with jargon and I have no idea what the hell you are referring too!    

Can you please elaborate for me?  I think I kinda get what you're driving at but not to sure...


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

Underway said:


> It's like they designed the combats to be functional or something, and the army decided that isn't how they want to use them.


Story of every military.  

X is designed to be used in this way, but the military doesn't allow it to be used in that way.

See:  Tuque/gloves/jacket  

Now that we have completely derailed this thread...


----------



## Underway (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Now that we have completely derailed this thread...


What's new...  I'm waiting for it to become a PRes or Army reorg thread...

At least its still uniform related!


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

Underway said:


> What's new...  I'm waiting for it to become a PRes or Army reorg thread...
> 
> At least its still uniform related!


Of course now the obvious question is whether "the moustache" is above, or below, "NAVY MARINE"


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Sometimes you post things with jargon and I have no idea what the hell you are referring too!
> 
> Can you please elaborate for me?  I think I kinda get what you're driving at but not to sure...



When you dangle a Commission in front of a good WO/CWO as the ultimate prize in the lottery of life, some start behaving more like Officers and 'yes men/women/peeps' to the detriment of the role of the WO/CWO which, in part, includes 'keeping an eye on' Officers and giving them good, frank, unfiltered advice and feedback.

If you want to CFR to Captain it might not go well for you if you jack up the CO (respectfully of course) for screwing the troops around, whether or not the CO realizes he's done that.

Also, when you create positions like Bde CWO, Command CWO etc, you turn our best into yes men/peeps and bag holders for Generals you politicize them, which is not a great example for the fire eating hell raisers we need to help us win future wars, IMHO. The 'Command Team', a thing we've aped from the US, is not a concept we should be promoting because it does not exist in really good militaries where dynamic tension is the best way to ensure the best led units and formations.

And yeah... derail complete!


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> When you dangle a Commission in front of a good WO/CWO as the ultimate prize in the lottery of life, some start behaving more like Officers and 'yes men/women/peeps' to the detriment of the role of the WO/CWO which, in part, includes 'keeping an eye on' Officers and giving them good, frank, unfiltered advice and feedback.
> 
> If you want to CFR to Captain it might not go well for you if you jack up the CO (respectfully of course) for screwing the troops around, whether or not the CO realizes he's done that.
> 
> ...



You are so much more eloquent than I am.


----------



## Underway (27 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> When you dangle a Commission in front of a good WO/CWO as the ultimate prize in the lottery of life, some start behaving more like Officers and 'yes men/women/peeps' to the detriment of the role of the WO/CWO which, in part, includes 'keeping an eye on' Officers and giving them good, frank, unfiltered advice and feedback.
> 
> If you want to CFR to Captain it might not go well for you if you jack up the CO (respectfully of course) for screwing the troops around, whether or not the CO realizes he's done that.
> 
> ...


Interesting take. So the US isn't a really good military?  What military would you say is "really good".

Of course, that's an army and maybe a purple problem, not a military problem.  CFR to officer doesn't require you to restart your career in the  Combat Arms.  For the Navy and airforce unless you are in the technical branch you generally do.  Because NWOs and pilots are trained to do things that no NCM are trained for.  So unless you CFR to GSO, Log, or Engineering branches congrats, go back to the training stream and learn to fly/navigate.


----------



## FSTO (27 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Also, when you create positions like Bde CWO, Command CWO etc, you turn our best into yes men/peeps and bag holders for Generals you politicize them, which is not a great example for the fire eating hell raisers we need to help us win future wars, IMHO. The 'Command Team', a thing we've aped from the US, is not a concept we should be promoting because it does not exist in really good militaries where dynamic tension is the best way to ensure the best led units and formations.


Dimsum, evidence duex regarding transition of colonial power.


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

Underway said:


> So unless you CFR to GSO, Log, or Engineering branches congrats, go back to the training stream and learn to fly/navigate.


ACSOs and AECs, just off the top of my head, are _technically _GSOs according to pay scale.


----------



## Weinie (27 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Let's go for a good old Canadian compromise, and settle on seven!


Canada convenes.


----------



## dapaterson (27 May 2022)

Weinie said:


> Canada convenes.


Of course, we then need a constitutional conference to decide if it's two or three buttons in French, and the ordering of French and English buttons depending on the language designation of the unit the individual is posted to.

We'll need a CPO1 to run the shop in Ottawa, a LCdr Buttons for each coast, and a PO1 Tar in ADM Mat as LCMM, Buttons, DEU, Naval.


----------



## Underway (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> ACSOs and AECs, just off the top of my head, are _technically _GSOs according to pay scale.


In my experience, GSO is a catch-all for an officer who doesn't have a trade for whatever reason.  But I get what you're putting down.


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

Underway said:


> In my experience, GSO is a catch-all for an officer who doesn't have a trade for whatever reason.  But I get what you're putting down.


Yeah, once again an acronym is used for very different purposes, leading to possible confusion.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Interesting take. So the US isn't a really good military?  What military would you say is "really good".
> 
> Of course, that's an army and maybe a purple problem, not a military problem.  CFR to officer doesn't require you to restart your career in the  Combat Arms.  For the Navy and airforce unless you are in the technical branch you generally do.  Because NWOs and pilots are trained to do things that no NCM are trained for.  So unless you CFR to GSO, Log, or Engineering branches congrats, go back to the training stream and learn to fly/navigate.



With the exception of SCP CPO1/CWOs CFR Log Os go into their training stream with some PLARing done with the right qualifications.


----------



## Furniture (27 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> When you dangle a Commission in front of a good WO/CWO as the ultimate prize in the lottery of life, some start behaving more like Officers and 'yes men/women/peeps' to the detriment of the role of the WO/CWO which, in part, includes 'keeping an eye on' Officers and giving them good, frank, unfiltered advice and feedback.
> 
> If you want to CFR to Captain it might not go well for you if you jack up the CO (respectfully of course) for screwing the troops around, whether or not the CO realizes he's done that.
> 
> ...


I think "Institutional Leadership" was pushed with good intentions, but has morphed into "If you don't want to be a Lvl 3 CPO 1, you're not worth my time". That kind of selection leads to more careerists rising to the top, while the ones more inclined to be disagreeable in the interests of their people get left behind. 

I respectfully disagree about Command Teams, as I think formalizing the relationship between Cox'n/SWO/RSM and CO isn't a bad idea. I think having a Snr NCM voice at the table every day is a good idea, the bag holding is done by the Lt(N)/Capt/LCdr/Maj EA from what I have seen from the outside here in Ottawa.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 May 2022)

The problem with the Command Team concept is when the NCM part of the Team forgets they aren’t the DCO or even a Flt Comd or Maj equivalent.   

Or, when the WCWO thinks they are above a CO…

That is our Comd Tm problem.  It didn’t seem to exist a few decades ago when COs were COs and RSM/SCWO etc functioned perfectly fine.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (27 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> The problem with the Command Team concept is when the NCM part of the Team forgets they aren’t the DCO or even a Flt Comd or Maj equivalent.
> 
> Or, when the WCWO thinks they are above a CO…
> 
> That is our Comd Tm problem.  It didn’t seem to exist a few decades ago when COs were COs and RSM/SCWO etc functioned perfectly fine.



So essentially this:


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> That is our Comd Tm problem. It didn’t seem to exist a few decades ago when COs were COs and RSM/SCWO etc functioned perfectly fine.


So what changed?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> So what changed?



IMO, the Chief position has become a little too inflated.    

When?  I’m not sure.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> So what changed?



We had a CAF CWO who wanted to be an officer and ruined a whole series of ranks for his ambitions.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> IMO, the Chief position has become a little too inflated.
> 
> When?  I’m not sure.



Inflated, yes.  But more completely blurred what they were meant to be.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 May 2022)

Also in the “problems with our NCM ranks”

Command Master Sailor.   

Fuck.  Just stop.  Seriously this is one of the dumbest things lately.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Inflated, yes.  But more completely blurred what they were meant to be.



This is a nice simplified version…I think the CWO/CPO Corps concept is majorly flawed and is going in the wrong direction.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Also in the “problems with our NCM ranks”
> 
> Command Master Sailor.
> 
> Fuck.  Just stop.  Seriously this is one of the dumbest things lately.



I don't want to pass a negative judgement on the position.  I'm dismayed that people thing we aren't representing them well enough.



Eye In The Sky said:


> This is a nice simplified version…I think the CWO/CPO Corps concept is majorly flawed and is going in the wrong direction.
> 
> View attachment 71046



Bingo.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't want to pass a negative judgement on the position.



I will.  This is going too far…


----------



## dimsum (27 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I hear you.  To me if the MS and below feel they are being represented by the C&POs so poorly that they need their own command positions then we, C&POs, need to suck back and reload on how we are doing business and reestablish our role properly.


Counterpoint - The MS and below are screaming for "a seat at the table", and now they're there.

So...if things continue to not change or, even worse, slide further into crap, then the senior ranks can say "hey, you [Command/Formation MS] were part of this..."

Diabolical.  




Halifax Tar said:


> I'm dismayed that people thing we aren't representing them well enough.


If you've read CAF Reddit in the past few months, that is a British-level understatement.

If the posts there are even half-true, the attitude of the Jr NCMs is...not good.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Counterpoint - The MS and below are screaming for "a seat at the table", and now they're there.
> 
> So...if things continue to not change or, even worse, slide further into crap, then the senior ranks can say "hey, you [Command/Formation MS] were part of this..."
> 
> ...



I don't Reddit, I find the lay out confusing lol god I'm a dino hahaha.


----------



## Underway (27 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> If you've read CAF Reddit in the past few months, that is a British-level understatement.
> 
> If the posts there are even half-true, the attitude of the Jr NCMs is...not good.


If you've read Reddit in the past few months period... the attitude of everyone on there is ... not good.

 People just go there to bitch (like some on here.. lol).  Me, I just talk to people and see what's going on.  I don't argue with the NCM's I listen and discuss.  You'd be surprised what problems you can solve.  And of course, you find out pretty quick who actually has a problem vs who is causing a problem vs who is a problem.


----------



## Furniture (27 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't Reddit, I find the lay out confusing lol god I'm a dino hahaha.


Same... It makes no sense, and should be banned along with toques with rain coats.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (27 May 2022)

I was CWO in a technical position.  I acted as a L2 Formation CWO/L1 CWO on several occasions for up to six months.  I was asked if I was interested in succession planning (I got promoted on the cusp between being good at your job and being selected for succession planning).

I said sure, what unit?
Edmonton, but first a year of language training.
For Edmonton?  Can I go to the Supply Depot in Montreal, I ask.  I know the guy there is leaving when I would be finishing French.
Nope, you must go to Edmonton after taking a year of French.
Ok, what happens when I leave Edmonton in three years having forgotten all my French.  You will go back on French training.
Ok, I can carry on a conversation in French, but my grammar and writing are terrible (see the test I just did- got B in spoken, AA in others).  Can I get by with that?
No, you need BBB.
Ok, no thank you, I'll stay here, and go PERX.
-Log Branch CWO head explodes-

Go West they said, what a crock.


----------



## dapaterson (27 May 2022)

The CAF lacks credible HR professionals in key HR roles, and it shows.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 May 2022)

AmmoTech90 said:


> I was CWO in a technical position.  I acted as a L2 Formation CWO/L1 CWO on several occasions for up to six months.  I was asked if I was interested in succession planning (I got promoted on the cusp between being good at your job and being selected for succession planning).
> 
> I said sure, what unit?
> Edmonton, but first a year of language training.
> ...



That's amazingly terrible...


----------



## Gorgo (28 May 2022)

Strange thought just came to me when I glanced over the latest edition of _Your Navy Today_, where there's a small note about some naval engineering officers graduating from HMS _Sultan_ in the UK:

If NWOs get their own "wings" now, why can't MSEOs and NCSEOs?  Maybe mix the NWO badge with crossed lighting bolts for MSEOs and a crossed lighting bolt and sabre for NCSEOs?

It's only fair, right?


----------



## Underway (28 May 2022)

Gorgo said:


> Strange thought just came to me when I glanced over the latest edition of _Your Navy Today_, where there's a small note about some naval engineering officers graduating from HMS _Sultan_ in the UK:
> 
> If NWOs get their own "wings" now, why can't MSEOs and NCSEOs?  Maybe mix the NWO badge with crossed lighting bolts for MSEOs and a crossed lighting bolt and sabre for NCSEOs?
> 
> It's only fair, right?


Ugh, Sultan.

And no I don't want an NWO badge.  You can easily identify the Engineers in the fleet.  We're the ones who are smiling.  (Unless it's a SWP before a deployment, then we look tired, exhausted, stressed and/or have the caffeine shakes).


----------



## dimsum (28 May 2022)

Gorgo said:


> If NWOs get their own "wings" now, why can't MSEOs and NCSEOs? Maybe mix the NWO badge with crossed lighting bolts for MSEOs and a crossed lighting bolt and sabre for NCSEOs?



Or go "history and heritage", as the RCN loves to do.


----------



## btrudy (28 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Or go "history and heritage", as the RCN loves to do.


Now this is a change I could get behind


----------



## McG (28 May 2022)

More bling for officers. That’s the way to show those sailors & POs who the institution really cares about.


----------



## btrudy (28 May 2022)

McG said:


> More bling for officers. That’s the way to show those sailors & POs who the institution really cares about.


Eh, it'd just be the equivalent of the occupational badges already worn on by naval NCM on the tunics lapel.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So essentially this:



Maybe more this…

_Know your roll…_


----------



## dimsum (29 May 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Maybe more this…
> 
> _Know your roll… role_


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 May 2022)

Doh!!


----------



## kratz (29 May 2022)

10am... Soup's on.


----------



## TacticalTea (29 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There is a pretty large cohort of NWOs that won't/can't go to sea anymore.
> 
> My favorite are the ones that are morbidly obese and DAGed RED during COVID because we can't guarantee they aren't a massive liability at sea.
> 
> They also can't fit in bunker gear so they end up being a useless oxygen thief in the section bases in an emergency.  Nothing says leadership like watching others go save the ship for you 🤣


It's a disgrace to be fat in the military. That said, the Navy doesn't do enough to ensure its sailors maintain a healthy lifestyle.


daftandbarmy said:


> But just try to take a quick dump...


That's why I've been suggesting a hind zipper for coveralls! For some reason the enlisted always laugh me out the room when I mention that idea...


dimsum said:


> Or go "history and heritage", as the RCN loves to do.


I assume McG's comment was directed towards the SWO badge, not the coloured ranks. I love this particular idea, and it's something we already do with medical officers if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 May 2022)

Ugh, the coloured ranks comes up all the time, and I wish the idea would die in a fire. The Medical officers kept the red stripes at unification, but aside from the doc/dentist on the tanker, they aren't in the fleet, but at least it's a useful identifier for a medical type, similar to the red cross the medics wear.

There are only a few NTOs and LogOs on a ship, so really never was any confusion who was who when it mattered. It's also a small community, so generally you will know most people.

Instead of a single rank epaulet (that you can easily pass on to whoever when you get promoted) that would create four different epaulets for each rank . The SWO pins are stupid anyway, because there is never any real question if someone holds the qualification when it matters, but the coloured ranks to denote officer trades is equally stupid for the same reason.

If you want to go with industry standards, at least there is some similarity between trade badges and the colour codes most worksites use for different trades, but all the officers would be white helmets, regardless of occupation. 

Really wish the badge and bow crowd would just sit the hell down with the shuffling of the deckchairs. If they are introducing new H&A for something that's overlooked, cool. If they are getting new functional equipment for wear, that's cool too, but it's ridiculous that I have a blue rain coat, modeled on the RN raincoat to be worn with either DEUs or work dress, that I'm not supposed to wear in DEUs if it's raining because some buttons and badge clowns think it's still the same yellow slicker.

The same people could be doing useful things, like contributing to review of the trade qualifications, updating training courses, etc. Failing that, they could just stand still and work on converting oxygen to carbon dioxide while staying out of everyone else's way.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 May 2022)

Now a set of _these _would be making a _real _statement, Navy Officer-wise


----------



## dimsum (30 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> That's why I've been suggesting a hind zipper for coveralls! For some reason the enlisted always laugh me out the room when I mention that idea...


Or butt flap, like the old-school one-sie pyjamas     



daftandbarmy said:


> Now a set of _these _would be making a _real _statement, Navy Officer-wise
> 
> View attachment 71095


Don't give them ideas.  The Air Force would probably look and say "hey, we should go back to something 'nicer' too"


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Or butt flap, like the old-school one-sie pyjamas
> 
> 
> Don't give them ideas.  The Air Force would probably look and say "hey, we should go back to something 'nicer' too"
> ...



Oh that looks like a swell dress of the day outfit right there!


----------



## Sailorwest (6 Jul 2022)

Do you know how you get ahold of the miniature version? I assume that is intended for mess dress as well


OceanBonfire said:


> Per NAVORD 5027-2:


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 Jul 2022)

Holy shit that pin gets more ridiculous daily, and they still do an awful job on placing the ribbons on all the PA photos. I do enjoy how they do mis-align it differently in each three photos as well.

Next up, super small ships to qualify for it. I'm going to commision a combat kayak (in Tacticool (TM) carbon fibre) to earn mine. It will be matte black green groundeffects lighting for night vision.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Jul 2022)

Sailorwest said:


> Do you know how you get ahold of the miniature version? I assume that is intended for mess dress as well


What happens if I have too many other skill badges!?  🤣


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 Jul 2022)

Sailorwest said:


> Do you know how you get ahold of the miniature version? I assume that is intended for mess dress as well


Sorry, that was harsh, hopefully someone points you to a source for the miniature. Not like this was your idea, and you don't want to be out of dress.

🍻


----------



## Kilted (6 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What happens if I have too many other skill badges!?  🤣



There are other places to put them.   Apparently the Scouts got rid of their shashs.


----------



## TacticalTea (6 Jul 2022)

Allegedly Adm Baines' departure gift to the Navy.

I'll try to push Topshee to change the design 😅 (though I already poke him to eliminate the rank of ''Acting-sub-lieutenant'' every time we meet... my political capital reserves might be dry)


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Ugh, the coloured ranks comes up all the time, and I wish the idea would die in a fire. The Medical officers kept the red stripes at unification, but aside from the doc/dentist on the tanker, they aren't in the fleet, but at least it's a useful identifier for a medical type, similar to the red cross the medics wear.
> 
> There are only a few NTOs and LogOs on a ship, so really never was any confusion who was who when it mattered. It's also a small community, so generally you will know most people.
> 
> ...


Pretty common on the merchant marine and CCG, purple is for engineers


----------



## Kilted (7 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Allegedly Adm Baines' departure gift to the Navy.
> 
> I'll try to push Topshee to change the design 😅 (though I already poke him to eliminate the rank of ''Acting-sub-lieutenant'' every time we meet... my political capital reserves might be dry)


How can a substantive rank have the word acting in it?

Also what if an Acting Sub-Lieutenat  was acting as a Sub-Lieutenat? Or what if a Naval Cadet was acting a rank up, would they be an Acting Acting Sub-Lieutenat?

You boat people are weird.


----------



## dimsum (7 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> How can a substantive rank have the word acting in it?
> 
> Also what if an Acting Sub-Lieutenat  was acting as a Sub-Lieutenat? Or what if a Naval Cadet was acting a rank up, would they be an Acting Acting Sub-Lieutenat?
> 
> You boat people are weird.


To further confuse things, like how you're not supposed to say the "Navy" part of Lt(N) - e.g. "Lieutenant Bloggins", not "Lieutenant Navy Bloggins", you're not supposed to say the "Acting" part either.

So, "Sub-Lieutenant blahblahblah", not "Acting Sub-Lieutenant blahblahblah".

So @TacticalTea - what's your suggestion for replacing A/SLT?  Ensign (like USN and RNZN)?  Midshipman (which isn't really equivalent)?  Something new?


----------



## Underway (7 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What happens if I have too many other skill badges!?  🤣


Retire...  oh wait.


----------



## Underway (7 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> How can a substantive rank have the word acting in it?
> 
> Also what if an Acting Sub-Lieutenat  was acting as a Sub-Lieutenat? Or what if a Naval Cadet was acting a rank up, would they be an Acting Acting Sub-Lieutenat?
> 
> You boat people are weird.


Unification problem.  Army, Airforce, Navy all had to align their ranks with each other for pay etc...  its where A/SLt comes from. The Navy had to create a rank to match the 2Lt.   But it actually started as an "acting" rank.  For a while (up till about 2000 or so) you got backpay to SLt level for the entire time you were A/SLt.  This also meant you were supposed to be called SLt not A/SLt on pipes or in conversation.  That part has gone away though half the time as technically both are correct(ish).

And then there is the entire MCpl and MS gordian knot which I've never been able to untangle. Best I could understand was MCpl was an appointment and became a rank because the navy had MS.  OR perhaps the navy had a MS appointment which became a rank and the army had to invent a rank to go in there.  @Oldgateboatdriver I'm sure has explained this to us at some point.


----------



## FSTO (7 Jul 2022)

dimsum said:


> To further confuse things, like how you're not supposed to say the "Navy" part of Lt(N) - e.g. "Lieutenant Bloggins", not "Lieutenant Navy Bloggins", you're not supposed to say the "Acting" part either.
> 
> So, "Sub-Lieutenant blahblahblah", not "Acting Sub-Lieutenant blahblahblah".
> 
> So @TacticalTea - what's your suggestion for replacing A/SLT?  Ensign (like USN and RNZN)?  Midshipman (which isn't really equivalent)?  Something new?


The (N) was only to be used in written correspondence, but it has now morphed into being orated as well. I can somewhat understand saying you’re a “Lieutenant Navy” when with mud monkeys but it’s the height of redundancy when you’re in a group of a majority of RCN personnel. It’s becoming more and more common and I’d wish it would bloody well stop.

Back in the Middle Ages when I was failing to learn French at St Jean, we had a parade where the reviewing officer was CAPT Davey. The MC repeatedly called him “Captain Navy Davey”. After about the fifth time I wanted to yell, “We get it! He’s a naval Captain, now shut up!” But being a snotter I kept my mouth shut.


----------



## FSTO (7 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Allegedly Adm Baines' departure gift to the Navy.
> 
> I'll try to push Topshee to change the design 😅 (though I already poke him to eliminate the rank of ''Acting-sub-lieutenant'' every time we meet... my political capital reserves might be dry)


You are correct sir. There were many attempts on the 3rd Deck of Building 7 at Carling to kill the idea, but all attempts were rebuffed by the meat sack in the corner office.


----------



## FSTO (7 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> How can a substantive rank have the word acting in it?
> 
> Also what if an Acting Sub-Lieutenat  was acting as a Sub-Lieutenat? Or what if a Naval Cadet was acting a rank up, would they be an Acting Acting Sub-Lieutenat?
> 
> You boat people are weird.


Huh? You wear a dress.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> The (N) was only to be used in written correspondence, but it has now morphed into being orated as well. I can somewhat understand saying you’re a “Lieutenant Navy” when with mud monkeys but it’s the height of redundancy when you’re in a group of a majority of RCN personnel. It’s becoming more and more common and I’d wish it would bloody well stop.
> 
> Back in the Middle Ages when I was failing to learn French at St Jean, we had a parade where the reviewing officer was CAPT Davey. The MC repeatedly called him “Captain Navy Davey”. After about the fifth time I wanted to yell, “We get it! He’s a naval Captain, now shut up!” But being a *snottier *I kept my mouth shut.



Eureka! That's it. 'Snotty' becomes the rank, and the position


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Allegedly Adm Baines' departure gift to the Navy.
> 
> I'll try to push Topshee to change the design 😅 (though I already poke him to eliminate the rank of ''Acting-sub-lieutenant'' every time we meet... my political capital reserves might be dry)


Please- no more CRCNs messing with Naval ranks without getting proper NDA amendments…


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Jul 2022)

Underway said:


> And then there is the entire MCpl and MS gordian knot which I've never been able to untangle. Best I could understand was MCpl was an appointment and became a rank because the navy had MS.  OR perhaps the navy had a MS appointment which became a rank and the army had to invent a rank to go in there.  @Oldgateboatdriver I'm sure has explained this to us at some point.



The MCpl/MS rank/appointed is a Hellyer abomination.



			Royal Canadian Navy Ratings Rank Insignia
		







						Canadian Armed Forces ranks and insignia - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




RCN 1.0 went

CPO1
CPO2
*PO1 - This was  brought in during the 60s to align with RCAF and CA ranks. 
PO2
LS
AB
OS

With chevrons used to denote TI. 

Then we have this lovely rank badge that lasted a short time:


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Jul 2022)

FSTO said:


> Huh? You wear a dress.


…and customarily no gitch… 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jul 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The MCpl/MS rank/appointed is a Hellyer abomination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## TacticalTea (7 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> How can a substantive rank have the word acting in it?
> 
> Also what if an Acting Sub-Lieutenat  was acting as a Sub-Lieutenat? Or what if a Naval Cadet was acting a rank up, would they be an Acting Acting Sub-Lieutenat?
> 
> You boat people are weird.


You got it. In our defence, it's another monstrosity spawned by unification, as @Underway  eloquently explained.


dimsum said:


> To further confuse things, like how you're not supposed to say the "Navy" part of Lt(N) - e.g. "Lieutenant Bloggins", not "Lieutenant Navy Bloggins", you're not supposed to say the "Acting" part either.
> 
> So, "Sub-Lieutenant blahblahblah", not "Acting Sub-Lieutenant blahblahblah".
> 
> So @TacticalTea - what's your suggestion for replacing A/SLT?  Ensign (like USN and RNZN)?  Midshipman (which isn't really equivalent)?  Something new?


Yes, Ensign seems like the obvious choice. 

It's already in use in the French version of our ranks, as "Enseigne 2e classe". I'd actually favour standardization of the ranks in both languages with Enseigne/Ensign and Sub-Lieutenant/Sous-Lieutenant.

A few years ago I wanted midshipman to replace Naval Cadet, but now that we've done away with Seaman, it's a non-starter.


----------



## Kilted (7 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Allegedly Adm Baines' departure gift to the Navy.
> 
> I'll try to push Topshee to change the design 😅 (though I already poke him to eliminate the rank of ''Acting-sub-lieutenant'' every time we meet... my political capital reserves might be dry)


How can a substantive rank have the word acting in it?

Also what if an Acting Sub-Lieutenat  was acting as a Sub-Lieutenat? Or what if a Naval Cadet was acting a rank up, would they be an Acting Acting Sub-Lieutenat?

You boat people are weird.


TacticalTea said:


> You got it. In our defence, it's another monstrosity spawned by unification, as @Underway  eloquently explained.
> 
> Yes, Ensign seems like the obvious choice.
> 
> ...


They never updated the NDA, just wait for the government to change for the Navy to revert back.


----------



## FSTO (7 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> They never updated the NDA, just wait for the government to change for the Navy to revert back.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> You boat people are weird.
> 
> They never updated the NDA, just wait for the government to change for the Navy to revert back.


Doesn't require NDA amendment.  Requires a designation of rank IAW the NDA by the Governor in Council.  You know, the process Art McDonald ignored.


----------



## torg003 (7 Jul 2022)

BTW, Ensign is an army rank, not a naval rank.  Just ask the footguards.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> BTW, Ensign is an army rank, not a naval rank.  Just ask the footguards.



And, coincidentally, a name associated with one of my favourite pubs  









						The Ensign Ewart Pub, Edinburgh
					

The Ensign Ewart, A Traditional Scottish Pub, near Edinburgh Castle




					www.ensignewartpub.co.uk


----------



## Ostrozac (7 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> BTW, Ensign is an army rank, not a naval rank.  Just ask the footguards.


Ensign, Colour Sergeant and Guardsman are all proper, legal, army ranks.

Unlike those illegal pirate ranks used by the navy. Shifty buccaneers that they are.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jul 2022)

They are designations of ranks, not ranks.  Per the National Defence Act, 21(2), as reflected in regulations under the QR&O, volume 1, chapter 3, article 3.01 and its associated table.


----------



## TacticalTea (7 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> How can a substantive rank have the word acting in it?
> 
> Also what if an Acting Sub-Lieutenat  was acting as a Sub-Lieutenat? Or what if a Naval Cadet was acting a rank up, would they be an Acting Acting Sub-Lieutenat?
> 
> ...


Naval ranks aren't in the NDA. You'll find unified ranks in the Schedule at the very bottom of the NDA.


IMHO, the RCAF should follow the Navy's example on that one and adopt the British air force ranks, but that's just me. One reason not to do it might be that it would be difficult to translate as, afaik, France never adopted distinctive air force ranks.


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Naval ranks aren't in the NDA. You'll find unified ranks in the Schedule at the very bottom of the NDA.
> 
> 
> IMHO, the RCAF should follow the Navy's example on that one and adopt the British air force ranks, but that's just me. One reason not to do it might be that it would be difficult to translate as, afaik, France never adopted distinctive air force ranks.


Why waste time and effort in changing our rank structure?  What doesn’t work with the current one?


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jul 2022)

The RCAF would have to explain why Wing Commanders (positions held by colonels) are not Wing Commanders (equivalent rank to lieutenant colonel).


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jul 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Why waste time and effort in changing our rank structure?  What doesn’t work with the current one?


Because the former CRCN violated the law, the CAF has gone along with it, and we need to either regularize it or go back to obeying the law.


----------



## TacticalTea (7 Jul 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Why waste time and effort in changing our rank structure?  What doesn’t work with the current one?


It's ahistorical and doesn't match the tradition laid down by the RAF or the distinct identity of the RCAF from the CA.

Do note I'm talking about the QR&O example which already provided for the development of distinct RCAF ranks, not the half-assed ways of the current Navy.


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> It's ahistorical and doesn't match the tradition laid down by the RAF or the distinct identity of the RCAF from the CA.
> 
> Do note I'm talking about the QR&O example which already provided for the development of distinct RCAF ranks, not the half-assed ways of the current Navy.


Sure, but in practical terms, what can’t we do because of our rank structure? Let’s be pragmatic.


----------



## TacticalTea (7 Jul 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Sure, but in practical terms, what can’t we do because of our rank structure? Let’s be pragmatic.


I doubt it'd be that resource intensive. 

They did it for aviator and sailors without too much problem. (Except that they got the wrong policy level for the latter)


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jul 2022)

Aviator, as I recall, was introduced as part of the initial implementation of the amendments to the NDA that brought in NDA 21(2).


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I doubt it'd be that resource intensive.
> 
> They did it for aviator and sailors without too much problem. (Except that they got the wrong policy level for the latter)


If you think changing an Act is not resource intensive, I have news for you.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Jul 2022)

The RAF ranks would not easily transfer over to the RCAF; their air and ground trades don’t even use the same ranks in the NCM world.  

I’d change the RCAF op dress ranks thread colour to pearl grey like our DEUs are and call it a day.  The CAG and blue thread combo doesn’t work so well on the shoulder/flying clothing.   I’ve said a few times, do the pearl grey thread for officers only so people know if they going to salute or not…









						RAF Ranks | Royal Air Force
					

See more from the Royal Air Force




					www.raf.mod.uk


----------



## Furniture (7 Jul 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> The RAF ranks would not easily transfer over to the RCAF; their air and ground trades don’t even use the same ranks in the NCM world.
> 
> I’d change the RCAF op dress ranks thread colour to pearl grey like our DEUs are and call it a day.  The CAG and blue thread combo doesn’t work so well on the shoulder/flying clothing.   I’ve said a few times, do the pearl grey thread for officers only so people know if they going to salute or not…
> 
> ...


Alternatively, we could just drop saluting outside of ceremonies, and let everybody's rank be clearly visible...


----------



## TacticalTea (8 Jul 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> If you think changing an Act is not resource intensive, I have news for you.


Who said anything about changing an act? Refer to @dapaterson 's comment


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Who said anything about changing an act? Refer to @dapaterson 's comment


Getting GiC approval is as ressource intensive.  We’re talking months to years of multiple staff work (that would be better used working on other, more pressing issues).


----------



## dapaterson (8 Jul 2022)

Amending / creating regulations is easier than amending the Act.  That doesn't mean it's easy.






						Guide to Making Federal Acts and Regulations - Canada.ca
					






					www.canada.ca


----------



## TacticalTea (8 Jul 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Getting GiC approval is as ressource intensive.  We’re talking months to years of multiple staff work (that would be better used working on other, more pressing issues).


I'm not saying it should be rushed either.

But at least throwing it on the plate would get it done some day! Instead of never.


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I'm not saying it should be rushed either.
> 
> But at least throwing it on the plate would get it done some day! Instead of never.


Again.  What isn’t working now that would justify using 1000s of hours of people’s time?


----------



## TacticalTea (8 Jul 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Again.  What isn’t working now that would justify using 1000s of hours of people’s time?


🤷🏼‍♀️


----------



## Weinie (8 Jul 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> The RAF ranks would not easily transfer over to the RCAF; their air and ground trades don’t even use the same ranks in the NCM world.
> 
> I’d change the RCAF op dress ranks thread colour to pearl grey like our DEUs are and call it a day.  The CAG and blue thread combo doesn’t work so well on the shoulder/flying clothing.   I’ve said a few times, do the pearl grey thread for officers only so people know if they going to salute or not…
> 
> ...


It would have been easier if you (RCAF) had not adopted those miniature rank insignia that you place on the leather jacket. It was impossible to see who you were talking to, unless you were six inches away.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Jul 2022)

Yes, thankfully they switched to DEU rank slip-ons.


----------



## dimsum (8 Jul 2022)

Weinie said:


> It would have been easier if you (RCAF) had not adopted those miniature rank insignia that you place on the leather jacket. It was impossible to see who you were talking to, unless you were six inches away.


We don't anymore.  It got repealed within a few months.



Eye In The Sky said:


> The RAF ranks would not easily transfer over to the RCAF; their air and ground trades don’t even use the same ranks in the NCM world.


The Australians (RAAF) and Kiwis (RNZAF) don't differentiate - it's just the RAF that does that.  

To be clear, personally I don't see a reason to change (agreeing with @SupersonicMax here) but I just want to point out that not all AFs who have the British-inspired officer ranks also separate the Tech/Aircrew NCM ranks.  

And @dapaterson - I've also heard the same rumblings in the RAF, etc before about why WGCDRs don't command Wings, etc.  It's just one of those "tradition" things now - analogous to why we still have "Captaine de Corvette" if we don't have Corvettes.  The one benefit I can think of is when you see the rank on an email, you're not betting 50/50 whether BGen (for example) is Army or AF.



Furniture said:


> Alternatively, we could just drop saluting outside of ceremonies


Whoa whoa whoa - not today, Satan


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Jul 2022)

Furniture said:


> Alternatively, we could just drop saluting outside of ceremonies, and let everybody's rank be clearly visible...


----------



## Underway (8 Jul 2022)

dimsum said:


> why we still have "Captaine de Corvette" if we don't have Corvettes


Umm we do...



Captaine de Corvette is directly pulled from the French (France) Rank structure and is used by other french navies.  As are other french language ranks.

If I'm a tour guide on Sackville or Haida can I qualify for a SWO Badge?  Does the colour change if I'm the shift supervisor or something?


----------



## dapaterson (8 Jul 2022)

Hey, if I understand the rules, even if you only command a ship in the ditch you still get gold, so Haida should qualify


----------



## Navy_Pete (8 Jul 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Hey, if I understand the rules, even if you only command a ship in the ditch you still get gold, so Haida should qualify


Both are still actually commissioned, so I think you actually could technically qualify. Would be hilarious for someone from Parks Canada to apply for it.


----------



## dimsum (8 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Both are still actually commissioned, so I think you actually could technically qualify. Would be hilarious for someone from Parks Canada to apply for it.


That would be amazing.


----------



## Underway (8 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Both are still actually commissioned, so I think you actually could technically qualify. Would be hilarious for someone from Parks Canada to apply for it.


I mean if you were an NWO and you were still wearing the naval uniform... so that means the retired naval officers who work there (I know a few) can just bomb around in them.


----------

