# Our justice system coddles offenders  (well, maybe only some.......)



## PMedMoe (20 Nov 2008)

This could have just as easily gone under the "Human Rights Gone Awry" thread.

Our justice system coddles offenders
Naomi Lakritz, The Calgary Herald
Published: Thursday, November 20, 2008

Article Link

How many times do you have to stab someone before your race or culture ceases to be a relevant part of the picture? Is 83 times enough?

That's how many times Christopher Alexander stabbed Linda LeFranc, a resident of Terrace, B. C., as she slept on her couch after a night of studying, in December 1998. Alexander, who is part aboriginal, was 17 at the time; LeFranc was 36. He lived next door to her in the condo complex she and her ex-husband co-owned. No motive for the killing was ever established. Afterward, Alexander left her body for her seven-year-old daughter, Brandy, to discover when the child woke up the next morning.

LeFranc's sister, Anita Johnstone, who lives in the North Saanich area, can be forgiven for thinking that her sister's murder should be about, well, her sister. Too bad the justice system doesn't see it that way. Tried as an adult and convicted of second-degree murder in May 2002, Alexander received a life sentence with eligibility for parole after seven years. Talk about a mockery of the very term "life sentence." After serving barely two years in the maximum security Kent Institution in Agassiz, B.C., Alexander was moved in 2004 to the Matsqui medium-security prison in Abbotsford and into the Pacific Institution/Regional Treatment Centre in the Matsqui complex.

In 2007, he moved to the minimum security Kwikwexwelhp Healing Village near Mission, where the emphasis is on cultural and spiritual teachings. This guy broke into LeFranc's home and stabbed her 83 times and he gets to live in a fenceless healing village? On Nov. 27, he will be up for a hearing for both day and full parole. Not just any old hearing, mind you, but an elder-assisted hearing in a long house at the healing village, complete with chanting and smudging.

"I find it very offensive that such care is taken to accommodate the offender and make him feel comfortable," Johnstone said in a telephone interview this week. "It's all about his rights and what he wants."

Rediscovering one's spirituality is all to the good, but it should be something personal, and kept separate from the workings of the parole board. However, the National Parole Board has conducted elder-assisted hearings since 1992. They are available to non-aboriginals upon request, too, although there is no provision for hearings tailor-made to any other culture. According to the board, such hearings take "into account the uniqueness of aboriginal culture and heritage. The objective is to provide an environment of trust and respect where the offender can feel comfortable in sharing information related to his/her journey."

Well, along Christopher Alexander's "journey," -- don't you just love that New Age word? -- he stabbed his next-door neighbour to death. That has nothing to do with culture and heritage. It has to do with his actions and personal responsibility. Maybe some of the "information" he could "share" might also be to enlighten others as to his behaviour just days after the murder. The grisly task of cleaning up the crime scene in Linda's condo when the police were through collecting evidence fell to Johnstone. She recalls that Alexander, who hadn't yet been arrested, came by and "stood and stared at me." He also turned up at Linda's funeral and signed the guest book.

More on link


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## kincanucks (20 Nov 2008)

And here I was trying not to get pissed off today and you post this.  Thanks.


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## benny88 (20 Nov 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> He also turned up at Linda's funeral and signed the guest book.



Based on that I would have to say he's mentally unstable, and should be given help. But what's frustrating in our legal system is there's no distinction between insane and criminally insane. Should a man who is "insane" enough to do this sort of a crime be treated in the same facility with the guy who mutters to himself on the street corner but doesn't bother anyone? When I say this guy should have help I mean treatment in the bowels of some max security prison. The crime should determine the punishment, regardless of motivation.


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## PMedMoe (20 Nov 2008)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> And here I was trying not to get pissed off today and you post this.  Thanks.



Sorry.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> Based on that I would have to say he's mentally unstable, and should be given help. But what's frustrating in our legal system is there's no distinction between insane and criminally insane. Should a man who is "insane" enough to do this sort of a crime be treated in the same facility with the guy who mutters to himself on the street corner but doesn't bother anyone? When I say this guy should have help I mean treatment in the bowels of some max security prison. The crime should determine the punishment, regardless of motivation.



I think the gist of the article is that the perpetrator of the crime is being given special treatment based on his *race/culture* which is being footed by the taxpayers.  By all means, have your healing ceremonies or whatever, but don't make us pay for it.


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## Snafu-Bar (20 Nov 2008)

Our justice system should be re-legislated to put victims right's first, as they are the ones violated of thier rights. The prosecutors should be rattling off each and every rights and freedom that was taken away in a crime and have it used as ammo in the sentencing. The perps should then have punishments befitting thier crime as thier own punishment.

 Shoot someone and kill them, then you shall face the firing squad. Stab someone 85 times and you should have the same fate.

 Many here will see that as a barbaric way of dealing with the criminal , but the saying goes... live by the sword, DIE BY THE SWORD! Let the punishment = the crime, no more bs justice!! Victims HAD rights, but they obviously don't count towards punishing the criminals anymore.(damn you Agnes MacPhail)

 Have i ever mentioned this country needs a swift kick in the arse?


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## Kat Stevens (20 Nov 2008)

And just who do you think the executioner should be?  Do you think YOU could walk into a room and stab a convicted murderer 83 times?  Have you ever killed ANYTHING with a knife?  It's messy.  I'm a pretty jaded guy, and I wouldn't want the job, and quite frankly, anybody that would belongs behind bars with the cons... :


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## Snafu-Bar (20 Nov 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> And just who do you think the executioner should be?  Do you think YOU could walk into a room and stab a convicted murderer 83 times?  Have you ever killed ANYTHING with a knife?  It's messy.  I'm a pretty jaded guy, and I wouldn't want the job, and quite frankly, anybody that would belongs behind bars with the cons... :



  Well stabbing them back 80+ times would be a bit much, but the guillotine's been awating it's return to the spotlight, as much as the chair, the gallows and the firing squad. Deterrence is needed for criminals not coddling. I'm sure that in MANY cases someone in the family of the victim could and would be more than willing in flipping the switch, pulling the handle or trigger on the person/persons responsible for such a crime deserving of the punishment. If not i'm sure there are people out there who would and could do the job and still sleep at night.

 Cheers.


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## Kat Stevens (20 Nov 2008)

I agree with capital punishment also, but that's not what you were advocating.  You were calling for state sponsored sadism.


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## ghyslyn (20 Nov 2008)

I'll have to agree with snafu to a certain degree, here's a scenario that happened to me:

It was 3 am on a friday night, drunken boyfriend of an ex-friend, may I also mention this guy has been to jail and seems to be mentally unstable, shows up to my house with the intent to assault me, he had a weapon, I wanted no part of it, as he's breaking through the windows(causing hundreds of dollars of damage) I'm on the phone with the cops, telling them somebody's breaking into my house trying to attack me with a weapon, they said theyd be right there, when he saw me hanging up the phone he ran, 2 hours later the cops still never showed up, so I waited until 8 am then went to the police station where i made a statement, this was 3 months ago, no report was ever made, I had to clean up the entire mess myself, get the new windows myself and pay for it myself, all the while this guy, who is clearly guilty is getting off scott free, nothing was ever done by the police except typing up a half-ass statement that barely mirrored what I told them.


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## benny88 (20 Nov 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I think the gist of the article is that the perpetrator of the crime is being given special treatment based on his *race/culture* which is being footed by the taxpayers.  By all means, have your healing ceremonies or whatever, but don't make us pay for it.




I understand the point you were making. I feel like in addition to the race thing the whole "mental state" argument frustrates me. Obviously it's a combination of both issues.


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## Neill McKay (20 Nov 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I think the gist of the article is that the perpetrator of the crime is being given special treatment based on his *race/culture* which is being footed by the taxpayers.  By all means, have your healing ceremonies or whatever, but don't make us pay for it.



It might be cheaper to run a lower-security institution, though.  In fact, I suspect that it is, otherwise we'd only have maximum-security prisons.  But I'd be interested in hearing from someone more knowledgeable than me.


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## PMedMoe (20 Nov 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> It might be cheaper to run a lower-security institution, though.  In fact, I suspect that it is, otherwise we'd only have maximum-security prisons.  But I'd be interested in hearing from someone more knowledgeable than me.



That may be true, however, I don't think this particular guy should have been in a low security institution.


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Nov 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Based on that I would have to say he's mentally unstable, and should be given help. But what's frustrating in our legal system is there's no distinction between insane and criminally insane. Should a man who is "insane" enough to do this sort of a crime be treated in the same facility with the guy who mutters to himself on the street corner but doesn't bother anyone? When I say this guy should have help I mean treatment in the bowels of some max security prison. The crime should determine the punishment, regardless of motivation.



Not to start a flame war or derail the thread, but as an observation, I would suggest that the fact that he stabbed the victim 83 times is more of an indication as to his mental state than going to the funeral.  However, both are weird.  I just find we as society in Canada want to, or usually try to, put a 'label' on those who commit these acts.  Why?  I am not sure...maybe it helps Joe and Jane Taxpayer sleep easier at night.  They wouldn't want to think that Bobby next door just might decide to do this after letting Fluffy out out for a pee-pee some night, for no reason, with no warning.

But I digress.

What I find the most appalling in this story is how much accomodation is given the convicted.  And it starts right from the initial sentencing.  7 years before eligible for parole???  wtf??

The criminal justice system, in my mind, is there for 2 reasons.  First, to provide a deterrant and second, to punish those who are not deterred.  It seems from the outset in this case, as with so many others, that the criminal justice system failed to do either.

I wonder how long it will take this convict to get a pardon, at which point in time, under the CHRA, he will not be able to be treated differently than any other Joe Law-abiding Citizen, as once pardoned, anyone who views him with disfavour is, IAW the definitions, guilty of discrimination.


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## KingKikapu (21 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The criminal justice system, in my mind, is there for 2 reasons.  First, to provide a deterrent and second, to punish those who are not deterred.  It seems from the outset in this case, as with so many others, that the criminal justice system failed to do either.



Not exactly.  The justice system is there to provide a deterrent, to punish, but also to rehabilitate.  Many lawyers and psychiatrists would argue that the very long sentences of states like Texas have only bred a more educated criminal who will then go out into society again and be even harder to catch.  Oddly enough, I think we have it backwards.  We try to rehabilitate the mentally unstable, yet sentence the cognisant ones to longer terms.  Longer sentences are appropriate for people who cannot be rehabilitated, and this guy might fit that bill.  I wouldn't mind spending more money to ensure he's off the streets if he'll never change.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Nov 2008)

??Rehabilitation??


I obviously can't say anything about this story but the vein popping in my forehead speaks volumes......


http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2008/11/21/7484226-sun.html
Ali rips killer's release
Woman weeps as son's killer goes home

By AMY CHUNG, SUN MEDIA
Last Updated: 21st November 2008, 10:25am

 Moonie Ali wept uncontrollably after a judge ruled yesterday that one of her son's killers could serve the rest of his sentence at home. 
A wave of choking tears streamed down Ali's face as Justice Russell Otter said he was "satisfied" with the convicted killer's progress in custody. 
He cannot be named as he was 17 days shy of his 18th birthday at the time of the murder and his identity is protected under the Youth Criminal Justice Act. 

Ali's son, Terrence, was only 15 when two adults and a youth beat the teen to death, almost decapitating his body at a Caribana party in 2003. His body later washed up on the beach near the Rouge Hill GO station. 
"I could barely recognize his body when I had to identify him," Ali said at the Scarborough courthouse. 

Her son's killer, now 23, has served 51/2 years of a 10-year sentence less time for first-degree murder. Most of it was spent at Sprucedale Youth Centre in Simcoe and an adult prison in Brampton. 
Yesterday, his appeal to serve the rest of his time under the supervision of his dad, uncle and stepmom was granted. He wiped away tears as the judge gave his decision. 

"(He's in) the luxury of his house with his family. Where's my son?" Ali sobbed outside the courthouse. 
"I didn't feel like fairness prevailed today," she added. "The community, we have one more murderer on the street. Again, the victim got short-changed." 

Ali has become a well-known advocate for her son and a critic of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. 
According to the ministry of children and youth services, there are 145 young offenders over the age of 18 who are serving their sentence in open or secure detention facilities. 

Justice Otter disclosed the killer has been taking online courses from Athabasca University and garnered an 82% on his mid-term exam. It was suggested that he continue his studies and work full-time with his father. 
He will be up for a review in six months and Ali said she will be there when it happens. 

"I will be back here to make sure he stays behind bars," said Ali, who disagrees her son's killer has been rehabilitated. "Not once has he said sorry or apologized about what he's done." 
The killer and his family didn't have any comments as they rushed to the parking lot. 

Lawyer Robert Warren said his client is remorseful for the murder and will keep up with his progress. 
One of the adults was convicted of second-degree murder and the other of manslaughter. They are both serving prison time. They cannot be named because of their relationship to the teen killer.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Nov 2008)

Did the criminal justice system deter this guy from stabbing someone 83 times?  NO.

Did the criminal justice system then punish the convicted offender after committing the crime?  NO

But no one seems to be concerned about that.  

Rehabiltation shouldn't be on the table if the offender has yet to be appropriately punished.  Our justice system is weak, flawed and lacking.


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## Infanteer (21 Nov 2008)

Friggen pathetic.


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## dragonfly (21 Nov 2008)

If someone stabbed my daughter 83 times....
If someone took my child away from me by stabbing them 83 times.
Yes I could be that executioner.  I would beg for the job.


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## KingKikapu (21 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Did the criminal justice system deter this guy from stabbing someone 83 times?  NO.
> 
> Did the criminal justice system then punish the convicted offender after committing the crime?  NO
> 
> ...



In many ways I agree.  Paying a debt to society certainly seems appropriate in these situations.  I am also hopeful that we can punish people, rehabilitate them, then get them back on the streets and off the tax payer books.  IF we can do it anyways.  Big if.  There are also alarming statistics that show people often get convicted for a lesser crime, get out, then go commit an even more heinous crime with stiffer penalties.  That means we either let them out too early and they were already predisposed to these tendencies, or we somehow made the situation worse by forcing them into associations with even more hardened criminals who see the deterrence is irrelevant.  I honestly don't know which it is (if it even is just one of those).

Talk about a cluster F.  The justice system sure is a tricky beast.  I honestly hope this guy gets locked away as long as possible.


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## Steel Badger (21 Nov 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> In many ways I agree.  Paying a debt to society certainly seems appropriate in these situations.  I am also hopeful that we can punish people, rehabilitate them, then get them back on the streets and off the tax payer books.  IF we can do it anyways.  Big if.  There are also alarming statistics that show people often get convicted for a lesser crime, get out, then go commit an even more heinous crime with stiffer penalties.  That means we either let them out too early and they were already predisposed to these tendencies, or we somehow made the situation worse by forcing them into associations with even more hardened criminals who see the deterrence is irrelevant.  I honestly don't know which it is (if it even is just one of those).
> 
> Talk about a cluster F.  The justice system sure is a tricky beast.  I honestly hope this guy gets locked away as long as possible.



Very VERY little if any rehab goes on in prison. Despite all the fine sounding policies; Corrections ( Federal or provincial) doesn't command a large enough slice of the budget pie to provide the necessary programs; and if it did....well....... local merchants ( or various others) would then bitch that "inmates are getting a free ride."
At the old Guelph Correction Centre, ( well before my time but surely during the time of Bruce (Oh Ancient One) Monkhouse  >) we used to have a dairy farm. So the jail was self sufficient and kept the inmates employed. Long gone. Evenin my short time at GCC they were paring away at our programs.....
That aside, in Ontario, many mopes WILL commit an offence with a federal sentance so they can go to a federal vice provincial joint..... The Ontario Ministry has much shallower pockets and doesnt allow inamtes their own clother, own XBOX or their own waterbed..... Oh yeah....  You get out earlier on a Federal Sentance than you do on a `lesser``shorter`Provincial one.


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## benny88 (22 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Not to start a flame war or derail the thread, but as an observation, I would suggest that the fact that he stabbed the victim 83 times is more of an indication as to his mental state than going to the funeral.



Nah I don't consider that a flame. There's no doubt that the murder was so much worse, but something about him going to the funeral offends me so much. Just because the article said he didn't have a motive doesn't mean that he didn't, and therefore it was the fact that he went to the funeral that cemented how unstable he was in my mind.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Nov 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> , and therefore it was the fact that he went to the funeral that cemented how unstable he was in my mind.



Did it occur to you that he was a cold-hearted piece of shit that couldn't give a rats ass about anything or anyone?

and I will quote myself for what 'rehab' really means......



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> "Rehabilitate"...what a neat word.
> 
> I'm going to assume you are a heterosexual male. Now then, I want to "rehabilitate" you, could you please give me a time frame for how many classes/courses you will need before I can "rehabilitate" you into becoming a gay male?
> 
> ...


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## Neill McKay (22 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Did the criminal justice system deter this guy from stabbing someone 83 times?  NO.



Obviously not, but it has surely deterred a great number of other people from all manner of crimes.  (Unless you're of the opinion that having no justice system at all would result in the same crime rate as we have now.)

No justice system in the world, however good, is going to deter every criminal.  Some people seem to be beyond being influenced.


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## Snafu-Bar (22 Nov 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Obviously not, but it has surely deterred a great number of other people from all manner of crimes.  (Unless you're of the opinion that having no justice system at all would result in the same crime rate as we have now.)
> 
> No justice system in the world, however good, is going to deter every criminal.  Some people seem to be beyond being influenced.



 Those are the ones that need to be removed from the gene pool...

Cheers.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Nov 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Obviously not, *but it has surely deterred a great number of other people from all manner of crimes*.  (Unless you're of the opinion that having no justice system at all would result in the same crime rate as we have now.)
> 
> No justice system in the world, however good, is going to deter every criminal.  Some people seem to be beyond being influenced.



Neither of those is my point, so my sight picture remains on my original target.


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## PMedMoe (25 Nov 2008)

Here's another one.

Article Link

Killer free after three years
By KEVIN MARTIN, SUN MEDIA
The Calgary Sun

CALGARY -- The widow of a slain Calgary man is dismayed his "deranged" killer is back on the streets three years after being ruled legally insane. 

Ashlee Morgan yesterday told the Sun she can't believe the Alberta Review Board has determined Stephan Gaetan Lee does not need continued hospitalization. 

Lee was found not criminally responsible (NCR) by reason of a mental disorder in December 2005, in connection with the murder of Steven Tavares.

More on link


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