# An old piece of iron - C1A1



## NavyShooter (23 Sep 2021)

Here's something that most folks won't recognize - with some seldom seen accessories as well.

An ex OPP C1A1, with the .22 Drop in kit (complete) and the C1 Sniper Scope (complete.)

NS


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Sep 2021)

Erectous Maxumus


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## Haggis (23 Sep 2021)

What a magnificent rifle.


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## dangerboy (23 Sep 2021)

I can remember shooting the FNC1 with the .22 insert at the armouries (when they used to have an indoor range) to ensure we understood the principles of marksmanship prior to shooting it with normal 7.62 ammo on the normal outdoor range. 

It worked really good as an intro to shooting as on my GMT course the majority of us had never shot a weapon before and we were a lot more confident having it as a workup to the full shoot.


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## lenaitch (23 Sep 2021)

I remember looking forward to the FN every qualification.  It was long and heavy, and 'smaller statured' member had difficulty with it.  It sure did have visual impact at a roadblock or incident scene.


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## OldSolduer (23 Sep 2021)

dangerboy said:


> I can remember shooting the FNC1 with the .22 insert at the armouries (when they used to have an indoor range) to ensure we understood the principles of marksmanship prior to shooting it with normal 7.62 ammo on the normal outdoor range.
> 
> It worked really good as an intro to shooting as on my GMT course the majority of us had never shot a weapon before and we were a lot more confident having it as a workup to the full shoot.


When you nail a target at 375 meters with iron sights it feels pretty good - that memory will live forever.


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## dapaterson (23 Sep 2021)

dangerboy said:


> I can remember shooting the FNC1 with the .22 insert at the armouries (when they used to have an indoor range) to ensure we understood the principles of marksmanship prior to shooting it with normal 7.62 ammo on the normal outdoor range.
> 
> It worked really good as an intro to shooting as on my GMT course the majority of us had never shot a weapon before and we were a lot more confident having it as a workup to the full shoot.


Fond memories of inhaling toxic levels of lead in the indoor range while a woefully unqualified person tried "coaching" shooters with the FN .22 insert, succeeding only in worsening their performance.


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## kkwd (23 Sep 2021)

I seem to remember rifles being laid aside just for the insert. The handguard was marked with a red stripe. Or am I misremembering this?


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## Weinie (23 Sep 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I remember looking forward to the FN every qualification.  It was long and heavy, and 'smaller statured' member had difficulty with it.  It sure did have visual impact at a roadblock or incident scene.


As a smaller statured member, I had stuffed squirrel right cheek every time I came off the range with the FN. But the grin on the left side of my face compensated.


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> When you nail a target at 375 meters with iron sights it feels pretty good - that memory will live forever.


I recall the feeling that, if you hit something with an FN, it was not getting back up again. Likely, ever.


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## mariomike (23 Sep 2021)

First time I fired an FNCI with 7.62 ammo I was 16. It kicked like a mule. Had to remember to grip it correctly.

We were not an infantry unit and ussually carried SMGs.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Sep 2021)

mariomike said:


> First time I fired an FNCI with 7.62 ammo I was 16. It kicked like a mule. Had to remember to grip it correctly.
> 
> I wasn't infantry. We ussually carried SMGs.


Is that after you guys turned in your brown Bess muskets ?


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## mariomike (23 Sep 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is that after you guys turned in your brown Bess muskets ?


How old are you, if you do not mind me asking?


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Sep 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is that after you guys turned in your brown Bess muskets ?


No, no, The Brown Bess was gone by then. First we turned in our Sniders....


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## daftandbarmy (23 Sep 2021)

We used the SLR .22 sub cal device alot during workup training for Northern Ireland.

NITAT had an urban style 3D range built inside an old 18th coastal fort, with lots of mechanical targets and cameras, and we put 4 man teams, and 3 x 4 man team multiples, through the range dozens of times. Thousands of rounds a day went down range, day and night.

It was an excellent team based 'gunfighter' type training experience, and probably the most enjoyable and valuable shooting we ever did. I ran the range for a week and it was almost effortless.

All with .22 cal ammo.


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Sep 2021)

The only time I used the .22 insert with the C1A1 was in Chilliwack on BOTC.  If I recall correctly, there were a few minor feed problems but nothing that seriously disrupted the serial.  The only experience I could compare it too was several years later at Fort Sam Houston (outdoor 25 yard range) when we shot the M16 using the .22 rimfire adapter kit but with store bought ammo (a bunch of us needed a recent range qual before going to an EFMB test).  About every half dozen rounds mis-fed, it was a pain in the ass to get through the shoot.

But I fondly remember the FN.  It was a real rifle.


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Sep 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> The only time I used the .22 insert with the C1A1 was in Chilliwack on BOTC.  If I recall correctly, there were a few minor feed problems but nothing that seriously disrupted the serial.  The only experience I could compare it too was several years later at Fort Sam Houston (outdoor 25 yard range) when we shot the M16 using the .22 rimfire adapter kit but with store bought ammo (a bunch of us needed a recent range qual before going to an EFMB test).  About every half dozen rounds mis-fed, it was a pain in the ass to get through the shoot.
> 
> But I fondly remember the FN.  It was a real rifle.


The thing I don’t fondly remember is carrying the thing the field. For days…


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## Halifax Tar (23 Sep 2021)

mariomike said:


> How old are you, if you do not mind me asking?


42.  Born in 1979


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## Halifax Tar (23 Sep 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> No, no, The Brown Bess was gone by then. First we turned in our Sniders....


Wasn't it spears and shields with Ceaser's legions ?


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## mariomike (23 Sep 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> 42.  Born in 1979


That's a great age. Prime of life for a man.


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## Weinie (23 Sep 2021)

mariomike said:


> That's a great age. Prime of life for a man.


Pffftttttt. I fathered a child at 55. (oh wait a minute......might have thought that one through a bit more)


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## OldSolduer (23 Sep 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Wasn't it spears and shields with Ceaser's legions ?


Yes actually. And the Roman short sword. Devastating.


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## Good2Golf (23 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Yes actually. And the Roman short sword. Devastating.


Not as devastating as the comfy chair…


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## cavalryman (23 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Not as devastating as the comfy chair…


Never underestimate the Chairborne brigade.


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## Good2Golf (23 Sep 2021)

cavalryman said:


> Never underestimate the Chairborne brigade.


Don’t worry, Cavalryman, @OldSolduer will be by soon to explain in greater detail… 😉


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## OldSolduer (23 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Not as devastating as the comfy chair…


Or the soft cushions.....


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## daftandbarmy (23 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Or the soft cushions.....


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## FJAG (23 Sep 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Wasn't it spears pila and shields scuta with Caeser's legions ?


FTFY  youngster


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## brihard (23 Sep 2021)

The C1A1 was well before my time, but when I did my infantry DP3A (small arms instructor course) in 2012, we have a famil on various firearms that included getting to shoot the C1. That was truly a treat. We also did a penetration shoot on cinderblocks, sandbags, etc that gave me a healthy respect for what that sort of caliber is capable of.


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## OldSolduer (23 Sep 2021)

brihard said:


> The C1A1 was well before my time, but when I did my infantry DP3A (small arms instructor course) in 2012, we have a famil on various firearms that included getting to shoot the C1. That was truly a treat. We also did a penetration shoot on cinderblocks, sandbags, etc that gave me a healthy respect for what that sort of caliber is capable of.


7.62 NATO will fuck you up. And the guy behind you


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## Weinie (23 Sep 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> The only time I used the .22 insert with the C1A1 was in Chilliwack on BOTC.  If I recall correctly, there were a few minor feed problems but nothing that seriously disrupted the serial.  The only experience I could compare it too was several years later at Fort Sam Houston (outdoor 25 yard range) when we shot the M16 using the .22 rimfire adapter kit but with store bought ammo (a bunch of us needed a recent range qual before going to an EFMB test).  About every half dozen rounds mis-fed, it was a pain in the ass to get through the shoot.
> 
> *But I fondly remember the FN.  It was a real rifle.*


My serial number on my FN from Cornwallis in 1983 was 0L0608. I remember the first time that my MCpl asked me for the SN, the second day of the course. I looked at him, completely befuddled, and the spent the rest of my day being "cocked" because I did not know the SN. I memorized it, and, 38 + years later, I still remember it.

After some research, found out that 0L was the first year that FN's were built for Canada, and mine was the 608th build in that year. 0L0608.

And it was a helluva rifle.


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## Good2Golf (23 Sep 2021)

6L1776  😉


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## FormerHorseGuard (24 Sep 2021)

3L5 358 rack 47 does not get any better than that.  do not recall its replacement number other 89AA something, they all looked the same. Black and shiny, my C1 had scratches, dents, and dings. If you ran out of ammo, you could swing it like a club the Oak made sure the guy was going down.


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## mariomike (24 Sep 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> , you could swing it like a club the Oak made sure the guy was going down.


I don't know much about wood, but they told us it was mahogany. Classy.


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## KevinB (24 Sep 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> 3L5 358 rack 47 does not get any better than that.  do not recall its replacement number other 89AA something, they all looked the same. Black and shiny, my C1 had scratches, dents, and dings. If you ran out of ammo, you could swing it like a club the Oak made sure the guy was going down.


6L2439 was replaced by 87AA 5440 for me.

We had dedicated .22LR kit guns - that never saw 7.62, until SARP - then we shoot the crap out of them.

I didn't learn until 1988 on my SAIC that the buttstock sizing on the C1A1 actually mattered - going to a Short buttstock from an XL managed to tame my chipmunk cheeks significantly.

Later when I got a old Aussie L1A1 I got some beautiful unissued CF wood - and the N (Normal) buttstock fit perfectly (I was several inches taller than I was at 18 and many pounds heavier.

Having shot people with both 7.62 and 5.56mm, I generally lean towards 5.56mm unless I have longer ranges (and not ball ammo).


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## OldTanker (24 Sep 2021)

The FNC1A1 had a life-changing impact on my life. In 1972 I was a militia corporal running a basic training course. I had two female recruits in my section, G and C. G was the better looking of the two, in a German barmaid sort of way, although C was no slouch in the looks department. I, being totally superficial at that age (18) developed a crush on G, or at least parts of her anatomy. Until we went to the range. I put them through the normal introductory serials on the FN and after the shoot when we were cleaning the weapons, G whined incessantly about how sore her face was and please, Cpl, could you help me with this terrible pull-through that is caught in my barrel? Sheesh. C, on the other hand, never uttered a word of complaint, cleaned her rifle competently and got on with it. I realized there was more to life than a barmaid figure. C and I have been married for 47 years. Thank you FNC1!


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## medicineman (24 Sep 2021)

I actually cannot remember the SN of my C1 from Cornwallis...though I do remember the young lady on the firing lane next to me in Granville who somersaulted backwards during an engagement from the kneeling position during our respirator shoot.  The look on the RSO's face was priceless...as was the screeching sound of "STOP STOP STOP!!!".  Even funnier was watching the tiniest person in my platoon trying a C2 shoot from 200m - one burst, 1 round might have got to the target, remainder hit all the firing points between us and it, as the butt to arm ratio was inverse to what it should have been.

I had fired the .22 insert maybe once before, but most of the time I saw it used with Cadets - helped some out on the range up in Whitehorse one summer when I was working there.


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## Old Sweat (24 Sep 2021)

I recall the C1s, and later the C1A1s, had different stock lengths indicated by a S, M, L, or XL on the bottom of the stock just aft of where it joined the body. Personal opinion: something was wrong as I have relatively short arms, but rated a XL stop length by the fit test in the QM. And chipmunk cheek describes my face after a day on the ranges. My time on the ranks was fairly short and I qualified first class in Fall 59 and marksman in Fall 60. I wore crossed rifles and crown for no more that a week or two before I was promoted to officer cadet and went on officer training.

It seems to me the C1A1 was an attempt to fix the stock length as well as some other things, like going to a two piece firing pin, but that was six decades ago, son no guarantees.


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## Haggis (24 Sep 2021)

1L9758. Long buttstock.  Man, I loved that rifle.  The feel and the smell was something else.  I was a pretty good shot with her.  I wonder if she went to the smelter?


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## FJAG (24 Sep 2021)

Me and mine in our glamour shot on BOTC - damn'd if I can remember it's number:



🍻


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## mariomike (24 Sep 2021)

FJAG said:


> Me and mine in our glamour shot on BOTC - damn'd if I can remember it's number:
> 
> View attachment 66610
> 
> 🍻


“This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

Without me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will …

My rifle and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit …

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will …

Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life."


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## lenaitch (24 Sep 2021)

Old Sweat said:


> I recall the C1s, and later the C1A1s, had different stock lengths indicated by a S, M, L, or XL on the bottom of the stock just aft of where it joined the body. Personal opinion: something was wrong as I have relatively short arms, but rated a XL stop length by the fit test in the QM. And chipmunk cheek describes my face after a day on the ranges. My time on the ranks was fairly short and I qualified first class in Fall 59 and marksman in Fall 60. I wore crossed rifles and crown for no more that a week or two before I was promoted to officer cadet and went on officer training.
> 
> It seems to me the C1A1 was an attempt to fix the stock length as well as some other things, like going to a two piece firing pin, but that was six decades ago, son no guarantees.



We didn't get to benefit from differently sized parts since they weren't personal issue.  One size fit all.


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## Good2Golf (25 Sep 2021)

lenaitch said:


> We didn't get to benefit from differently sized parts since they weren't personal issue.  One size fit all.


Like issue operational clothing, or PPE, etc…oh wait…


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## daftandbarmy (25 Sep 2021)

FJAG said:


> Me and mine in our glamour shot on BOTC - damn'd if I can remember it's number:
> 
> View attachment 66610
> 
> 🍻


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## Eaglelord17 (27 Sep 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> The thing I don’t fondly remember is carrying the thing the field. For days…


It is the same weight as a C7A2, only more balanced. 

Ironic though that we can't own or use the right hand of the free world in Canada though.

For those that want to see some footage and a bit of history on these rifles, here is some good videos by Ian McCollum.
FN C1A1




FN C2


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## SeaKingTacco (27 Sep 2021)

Eaglelord, I never carried a C7A2, but the legacy C7 was about 2lbs lighter than a C1.


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## Eaglelord17 (27 Sep 2021)

Fair enough, it would have been much lighter. I have even had that moment as I did have the pleasure of using the original C7s briefly and I don't understand how they made the current monstrosity out of such a simple and well thought out rifle.


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## ueo (28 Sep 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Eaglelord, I never carried a C7A2, but the legacy C7 was about 2lbs lighter than a C1.


Humped a C2 through Ph 2 and 3 Inf trg at the old  RCSofI in Borden. Weapon was heavy, yes but the 5 extra mags in the bra were heavier. Lighter than the Bren tho' (Yes I'm that old).


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Sep 2021)

ueo said:


> Humped a C2 through Ph 2 and 3 Inf trg at the old  RCSofI in Borden. Weapon was heavy, yes but the 5 extra mags in the bra were heavier. Lighter than the Bren tho' (Yes I'm that old).



I call the C2 and raise a GPMG.


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## ueo (1 Oct 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> I call the C2 and raise a GPMG.
> 
> View attachment 66632


Been there, didn't bother with the Tshirt. How about a Carl Gustave?


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## Maxman1 (12 Jan 2022)

Must have left it at a truck stop.


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## Maxman1 (12 Jan 2022)

medicineman said:


> Even funnier was watching the tiniest person in my platoon trying a C2 shoot from 200m - one burst, 1 round might have got to the target



Isn't that the norm for the C2? "One in the dirt, one on target, one to the sky, then jam"?


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## medicineman (12 Jan 2022)

I guess it depends on how well you could control it...2 on target, jam,...2 in bounding buddy, jam, at least it was making noise, lol


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## SeaKingTacco (12 Jan 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> Isn't that the norm for the C2? "One in the dirt, one on target, one to the sky, then jam"?


Turn the gas setting to adverse…mind you, that was hard on the shoulder and the ears.


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## daftandbarmy (12 Jan 2022)

medicineman said:


> I guess it depends on how well you could control it...2 on target, jam,...2 in bounding buddy, jam, at least it was making noise, lol



Grey's Scouts used them, so they couldn't have been be all that bad I'm guessing:


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## Kat Stevens (12 Jan 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> Isn't that the norm for the C2? "One in the dirt, one on target, one to the sky, then jam"?


I humped that humourless piece of metal and mahogany around for two years. If you held on to it right, it hit what you pointed it at, very reliably.


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## Good2Golf (12 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Turn the gas setting to adverse…mind you, that was hard on the shoulder and the ears.


…but it didn’t ever jam like that! 😉


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Jan 2022)

I have to wonder how many of our jams was due to our poor treatment of magazines? I never once heard about the importance of feed lip geometry or how critical the magazine is to the proper function of a semi or full automatic gun. people thought they were cool opening beer bottles with them.


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## FJAG (12 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I have to wonder how many of our jams was due to our poor treatment of magazines? I never once heard about the importance of feed lip geometry or how critical the magazine is to the proper function of a semi or full automatic gun. people thought they were cool opening beer bottles with them.


Gunners never did that with magazines. It was de rigueur for every gunner to have a church key attached to their lanyard on their battledress just in case a rogue beer should make it into your hands.






😁


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## Haggis (13 Jan 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I have to wonder how many of our jams was due to our poor treatment of magazines? I never once heard about the importance of feed lip geometry or how critical the magazine is to the proper function of a semi or full automatic gun. people thought they were cool opening beer bottles with them.


Legend tells there were a dozen different spots on a C1A1 where you could pop a beer cap.  I never figured them all out before the advent of twist tops.


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## mariomike (13 Jan 2022)

Lot of guys used their teeth.


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## Haggis (13 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Lot of guys used their teeth.


And, after a few years, they were easy to spot when they smiled.


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## NavyShooter (13 Jan 2022)

Sounds like something I should explore the next time I have some folks over for beers....


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## Haggis (13 Jan 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> Sounds like something I should explore the next time I have some folks over for beers....


Report back here when your research is complete, please?


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## Halifax Tar (13 Jan 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> Sounds like something I should explore the next time I have some folks over for beers....



Was that an invite ? lol


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## NavyShooter (13 Jan 2022)

I'm actually planning on doing a 'Meat and Greet' with some friends this summer.  I have not yet attained the expert level of smoking meats, but I'm pretty good at it.  I saw a video the other day where a bunch of butchers carved up a cow and a pig at the start of the day, then moved the meat onto the smoker and did a variety of pork and beef ribs...which take different lengths of time to prepare in the smoker, so for the rest of the day they were basically drinking beer, laughing and telling stories/lies and as the meats finished their cook time, they pulled that type off the smoker and sampled it around the table.  My God what a way to spend a Saturday...stories, lies, smoked meats, recreational beverages....sorry to distract from the FN....anyhow...I also recently picked up a deactivated MG-08 on the Sled mount, so that'll be a neat background item to have at the BBQ.


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## KevinB (13 Jan 2022)

Bah lost me at Deactivated...


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## NavyShooter (13 Jan 2022)

Kevin, if I could own a live one, I would.


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## KevinB (13 Jan 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> Kevin, if I could own a live one, I would.


I know.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Turn the gas setting to adverse…mind you, that was hard on the shoulder and the ears.


I don't want to be "that guy" (most of the time, but someone has to, and I'm qualified). There was no "adverse" setting on the C2. It had an 11 position gas regulator that was default set at 6. As the gun gummed up, the gas could be turned down. On really long days, I would get it down to 4, and only once to 3, and my cheek had the bruise to prove it. Only time we ever set the gas to 2 was on an exchange shoot with our American friends. They did not enjoy that at all.


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## Good2Golf (13 Jan 2022)

Am I remembering correctly that the C1 had four settings on the gas plug, ranging from ‘donkey kick in the cheek’ to ‘Mohammed Ali planting a right hook square on your clavicle?’


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Am I remembering correctly that the C1 had four settings on the gas plug, ranging from ‘donkey kick in the cheek’ to ‘Mohammed Ali planting a right hook square on your clavicle?’


If memory serves, the gas system on both was identical.


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## Haggis (13 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I don't want to be "that guy" (most of the time, but someone has to, and I'm qualified). There was no "adverse" setting on the C2.


Correct!  The C9, which replaced the C2, has an "Adverse" setting.


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## FJAG (13 Jan 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I don't want to be "that guy" (most of the time, but someone has to, and I'm qualified). There was no "adverse" setting on the C2. It had an 11 position gas regulator that was default set at 6. As the gun gummed up, the gas could be turned down. On really long days, I would get it down to 4, and only once to 3, and my cheek had the bruise to prove it. Only time we ever set the gas to 2 was on an exchange shoot with our American friends. They did not enjoy that at all.





Good2Golf said:


> Am I remembering correctly that the C1 had four settings on the gas plug, ranging from ‘donkey kick in the cheek’ to ‘Mohammed Ali planting a right hook square on your clavicle?’


Okay. This is weird but like G2G, I only remember there ever being four settings on the gas regulator.

I've done a quick search and actually found some pictures of spare parts for the FN including an 11 setting one:







And a 12 position one referred to as an "early type"






I'm still looking for the four-setting one I'm used to.

Edited to add: Not much luck with that and I'm starting to doubt my own memory. Maybe we were taught to start with the setting at "4"?  🤷‍♂️

🍻


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## KevinB (13 Jan 2022)

Gas Plug was a 2 setting - Fire and Grenade Launcher -
- the Gas Regulator was a 12 position - theoretically 13 in the early version (the fully open was the extra number) - which is pictured by @FJAG 

This is the Gas Plug


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## Haggis (13 Jan 2022)

FJAG said:


> Okay. This is weird but like G2G, I only remember there ever being four settings on the gas regulator.
> 
> I've done a quick search and actually found some pictures of spare parts for the FN including an 11 setting one:
> 
> ...


Yup, you're right.  It was a 12 setting plug.  The "normal" setting was "4".  Turning it up lightened the recoil by allowing more gas to escape the gas port.


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## Good2Golf (13 Jan 2022)

Having last fired the beast around 34 years ago, I’ll claim amnesty and accept the “Start at 4” wisdom of the others.

Only other thing I recall is seeing what happens on the first shot when one (not me!) doesn’t fully seat the gas plug properly…..ziiiiiiiing!!!


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## daftandbarmy (14 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Having last fired the beast around 34 years ago, I’ll claim amnesty and accept the “Start at 4” wisdom of the others.
> 
> Only other thing I recall is seeing what happens on the first shot when one (not me!) doesn’t fully seat the gas plug properly…..ziiiiiiiing!!!



It's even better when the weapon is fired with the bayonet not fully 'fixed'


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## Haggis (14 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Gas Plug was a 2 setting - Fire and Grenade Launcher -
> - the Gas Regulator was a 12 position - theoretically 13 in the early version (the fully open was the extra number) - which is pictured by @FJAG
> 
> This is the Gas Plug
> View attachment 68083


I attended my Infantry 6B during the SARP days.  Before I left for Gagetown, I got a spare gas plug and gas piston rod from a gun plumber friend and polished the heck out of them for use during morning inspections.  I got to Gagetown and they issued me a C7.


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## OldSolduer (15 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Having last fired the beast around 34 years ago, I’ll claim amnesty and accept the “Start at 4” wisdom of the others.
> 
> Only other thing I recall is seeing what happens on the first shot when one (not me!) doesn’t fully seat the gas plug properly…..ziiiiiiiing!!!


The recoil was nasty BUT with the proper hold on the weapon it was controllable. You knew you were firing something glorius.


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## Good2Golf (15 Jan 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The recoil was nasty BUT with the proper hold on the weapon it was controllable. You knew you were firing something glorius.


I loved pushing sandbags around the range with it…something a C7/C8 wouldn’t/couldn’t do.


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## Colin Parkinson (15 Jan 2022)

We had a shooting contest, came down to 2 guys and shooting an orange on a stick at 100m. One guy nailed their orange and the other grazed it, so we called him "sun kissed" after that. Damm good shooting with iron sights. Now all my iron sights have grown fuzz. My FAL has company with my now AR safe queens.


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## KevinB (15 Jan 2022)

Years later I bought an Australian L1A1, I managed to "find" a nice set of Canadian Wood - and the Disk Sight etc, and made a replica C1A1.
  It was always amazing that later in life not being a 17-20 something running around with it - that it was much more enjoyable to shoot.

It always bothered me that years ago with the C1A1 with iron sights - we used to shoot out to 500, and that stopped with the C7 (which was much more easily shot accurately).  

That said, having shot people with 5.56mm and 7.62mm if I was limited to ball ammo, I will always opt for 5.56mm.
  But it is really had to beat a 110gr TSX bullet for anti-personnel usage in 7.62


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## Halifax Tar (15 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Years later I bought an Australian L1A1, I managed to "find" a nice set of Canadian Wood - and the Disk Sight etc, and made a replica C1A1.
> It was always amazing that later in life not being a 17-20 something running around with it - that it was much more enjoyable to shoot.
> 
> It always bothered me that years ago with the C1A1 with iron sights - we used to shoot out to 500, and that stopped with the C7 (which was much more easily shot accurately).
> ...



We really don't take marksmanship seriously. 

Interesting on your opinion on 7.62 v 5.56. 

I'd love to hear why ?  But I am also cognizant this many not be something you're comfortable with.  So I only ask in the deepest respect. 

.308 is my number 1 or 2 go to round for deer and bear, .303br being the other.  I understand I am using SP and not ball.


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## KevinB (16 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We really don't take marksmanship seriously.


Very few Armies do these days 


Halifax Tar said:


> Interesting on your opinion on 7.62 v 5.56.
> 
> I'd love to hear why ?  But I am also cognizant this many not be something you're comfortable with.  So I only ask in the deepest respect.
> 
> .308 is my number 1 or 2 go to round for deer and bear, .303br being the other.  I understand I am using SP and not ball.


It is all about the construction of the bullet with regards to the velocity at impact.

In 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) the shape of the bullet, the construction of the bullet and the velocity generally result in a bullet that impacts a target, and after about 18cm starts to yaw on its axis - turns a complete 180 by 36cm and continues.
  Actual tissue destruction is minor - unless the bullet hits significant bone or inelastic tissue.

Whereas 5.56mm enters and yaws - then fragments - which creates a nasty wound channel - and a lot more tissue destruction.

This is also why The Hague Convention in respect to Bullet Design is horribly antiquated - because High Velocity bullets do things that where never anticipated when they outlawed expanding bullets.   The Swiss argued that the NATO SS109 bullet was illegal under Land Warfare - however the key is that the bullet wasn't designed to create to inflict unnecessary wounding.

Declaration (IV,3) concerning Expanding Bullets. The Hague, 29 July 1899.
DECLARATION

_The undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments, inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of 29 November (11 December) 1868,
Declare as follows:
The Contracting Parties agree to *abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions.*
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Powers, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.
The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.
A ' procès-verbal ' shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.
The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.
In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.
This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.

Done at The Hague, 29 July 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and copies of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers._

For more info I have attached some links 
US Ruling on the use of Sierra Match King Open Tip Match 



			https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2010/armament/TuesdayLandmarkBHaysParks.pdf
		

Col. Hays Parks (USA Retired) is a fantastic resource for ammunition legality, I have met the man several times, and he is truly a great person that wants the most effective legal means of tools available for American and allied Military Personnel.



			https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/1415209/2010-Winter-Berry-Hollow+Point+Bullets.pdf/84762933-4a4f-4a5d-8118-3de49725cafe?version=1.0
		



However some folks are not happy about it -- they only seem to focus on the Israeli usage though - NOT the usages by NATO troops.





						Forensic Architecture
					






					forensic-architecture.org


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## KevinB (16 Jan 2022)

Below are some older Open Source ammunition Gel tests results.




These date to 2004 - I have newer ones but they are FOUO, and beyond.


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## Halifax Tar (16 Jan 2022)

Merci beaucoup mon ami!


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## Good2Golf (16 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Below are some older Open Source ammunition Gel tests results.
> 
> 
> View attachment 68112
> ...


I see some of those charts don’t take into account the more recent trends of “increased medial-corporal diametrical mass distributions” of many western forces. 🤔


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## Haggis (16 Jan 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I see some of those charts don’t take into account the more recent trends of “increased medial-corporal diametrical mass distributions” of many western forces. 🤔


Which is why marksmanship is losing significance.  Your target now has a larger centre of mass.


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## Weinie (16 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Which is why marksmanship is losing significance.  Their Your target (us) now has a larger centre of mass.


FTFY.


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## KevinB (16 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Which is why marksmanship is losing significance.  Your target now has a larger centre of mass.





Weinie said:


> FTFY.


Agreed - our enemies aren't getting bigger at all.
  In fact a skinny person in baggy close is a terrible target - especially moving as it is easy to misjudge the body and miss - poking holes in the back end of the clothes.


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## KevinB (16 Jan 2022)

I'd strongly recommend the second link I posted - it is a history of the small arms ammunition debate from pre Hague up to current realities.
     At 156 pages it is a bit of a read, but I think it is important to understand the what any why's that got us to this point.


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Jan 2022)

Haggis said:


> Which is why marksmanship is losing significance.  Your target now has a larger centre of mass.


Your target now has its own gravity well…


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## KevinB (16 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Your target now has its own gravity well…


You and @Haggis looking for a bunch of Blue on Blue?
  The only big targets I see are on our side...


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## Haggis (16 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> You and @Haggis looking for a bunch of Blue on Blue?
> The only big targets I see are on our side...


It's funny you mention that.  The silhouette targets we use at work are as wide as I am when fully kitted out.


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