# November 2015:  Paris Bataclan attack/hostage taking



## The Bread Guy

"First reports" caveats apply as usual - this, from the BBC....


> At least 18 people have been killed in several shootings in the French capital, Paris, as well as explosions near the Stade de France.
> 
> French media say at least 15 people have been killed near the Bataclan arts centre. A hostage taking is under way, with reports of up to 60 held.
> 
> Reports suggest some spectators are leaving the hall, with police raiding the venue.
> 
> Three explosions are also reported outside a bar near the Stade de France ....


More via Google News here.


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## Tibbson

I've been following this as closely as possible since the story broke.  At the same time I keep hearing our new PM's words about bringing refugees to Canada before Christmas.

 :facepalm:


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## RocketRichard

Not good at all to say the least. Situation still unfolding. Stand by.


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## Humphrey Bogart

France has ordered the closure of all borders and declared a State of Emergency.

The French military has deployed around Paris and the death tool is up to at least 35.  There is a hostage situation with hundreds potentially being held.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-shooting-attacks-explosion-1.3318444

More explosions have been heard elsewhere.  



			
				Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> I've been following this as closely as possible since the story broke.  At the same time I keep hearing our new PM's words about bringing refugees to Canada before Christmas.
> 
> :facepalm:



Trojan horse in waiting


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## ringo

PM's refugees should be limited to Copts and Yazidis.


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## Remius

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> I've been following this as closely as possible since the story broke.  At the same time I keep hearing our new PM's words about bringing refugees to Canada before Christmas.
> 
> :facepalm:



Maybe we should wait before drawing any conclusions...


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## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:
			
		

> Maybe we should wait before drawing any conclusions...



It's a valid point and one that will surely be discussed in the coming days.


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## PuckChaser

Remius said:
			
		

> Maybe we should wait before drawing any conclusions...


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## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> It's a valid point and one that will surely be discussed in the coming days.



I didn't say it wasn't valid.  It is still an active situation.  Clearly coordinated and terrorism is a forgone conclusion.  Linking this to the refugee situation is premature.    We've seen plenty of occasions where false information and presumptions have been wrong and un helpful.  Let's wait and see and then we can do the political bashing after we have all the facts.


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## The Bread Guy

Remius said:
			
		

> Maybe we should wait before drawing any conclusions...


 :nod:

More via Twitter here and here - again, initial reports caveat*** still apply.

*** - Initial reports are rarely _entirely_ correct - more attached.


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## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:
			
		

> I didn't say it wasn't valid.  It is still an active situation.  Clearly coordinated and terrorism is a forgone conclusion.  Linking this to the refugee situation is premature.    We've seen plenty of occasions where false information and presumptions have been wrong and un helpful.  Let's wait and see and then we can do the political bashing after we have all the facts.



If the terrorist turn out to be Islamic, it won't matter whether it's the refugees or home grown French Islamists. They will all be lumped together and it will come down on the heads of them all.

*IF* that's the case the Trudeau Liberals will have to rethink their stance. The PM is also going to have to get on TV and reassure the Canadian population that his plan is solid and safe. If it's not, and something happens here, their honeymoon will be over in spades.


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## cupper

Have a cousin who is currently traveling in Paris, was supposed to be heading to London tomorrow. Called his parents earlier this evening, said they were glad they decided to stay in the hostel and watch a movie. They are currently in lockdown, and most likely won't be heading to London anytime soon.


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## Tibbson

Remius said:
			
		

> Maybe we should wait before drawing any conclusions...



Agreed but I think the western world should have drawn conclusions before now. The evil powers that be have been telegraphing their intent for some time now but political leaders don't seem to want to recognize it.


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## The Bread Guy

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Agreed but I think the western world should have drawn conclusions before now. The evil powers that be have been telegraphing their intent for some time now but political leaders don't seem to want to recognize it.


For the moment, though, there are other threads to discuss the threats you refer to - the cancer victim's funeral may not be the best time/place to say, "I told him s/he shouldn't have smoked so much."  All about time/place ....

Everyone - how about we keep this to "whazzup?" for the moment, and comment more on the "who?" and "why?" a little down the road once things are over and cleaned up, OK?

*Milnet.ca Staff*

Meanwhile, this from the PM:


> “I am shocked and saddened that so many people have been killed and injured today in a number of terrorist attacks in Paris, France, and that many others are being held hostage.
> 
> “As the situation continues to unfold, Sophie and I join all Canadians in extending our deepest condolences to the families and friends of those killed. It is our sincere hope that the hostages are freed unharmed as soon as possible. We also wish a speedy recovery to all those who have been injured.
> 
> “Canada stands with France at this dark time and offers all possible assistance. We will continue to work closely with the international community to help prevent these terrible, senseless acts.
> 
> “Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of France and we mourn their loss.”


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## cavalryman

Periodic updates at the Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11995227/Paris-shooting-Many-feared-dead-live.html#update-20151114-2339


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## dapaterson

All the usual caveats about wikipedia, but their evolving article is at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks 

At the very least, there's a decent collection of links at the bottom of the article.


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## jollyjacktar

They are reporting now that 100 hostages along with 2 shyteheads are dead.  They threw explosives amongst the hostages.


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## kratz

I have family who have moved to Paris, married and are employed there. I'm concerned for them, the extended family and their friends. I'm waiting to hear more concrete details.


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## yayotheo

I just looked at my news channel and they said its 120 victims so far when will we wipe those jihads from the face of the earth they don't belong here


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## cupper

From WaPo:

*Paris rocked by explosions and shootouts leaving more than 140 dead*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/paris-rocked-by-explosions-and-shootouts-leaving-dozens-dead/2015/11/13/133f5bc2-8a50-11e5-bd91-d385b244482f_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-banner-high_paris%3Ahomepage%2Fstory



> France declared a state of emergency and sealed its borders Friday evening after a series of apparently coordinated terrorist attacks struck at sites across Paris, leaving at least 140 people dead and scenes of horror and carnage outside a soccer stadium, at cafés and inside a concert hall.
> 
> At the Bataclan theater alone, at least 118 people were reported massacred by gunmen armed with assault rifles and explosives.
> 
> The attacks on half a dozen targets spawned panic and chaos in a city where residents and tourists had only minutes earlier been enjoying a cool and quiet November evening.
> 
> At the concert hall, gunfire and explosions rang out as security forces moved in on hostage takers who had stormed a performance by an American rock band.
> 
> Police said the attackers threw explosives at the hostages, in addition to opening fire on them. About 100 people were rescued when security forces stormed the building, French media reported. One official described the scene inside as “carnage.”
> 
> French television showed people evacuating the venue, walking out with their hands up. News media said the operation to secure the Bataclan theater was over and that three gunmen have been killed.
> 
> The president’s office said 1,500 French troops were deployed on the streets of Paris to back up police.
> 
> France’s BFMTV television network reported that an unknown number of attackers in Friday’s violence were still at large.
> 
> France’s deputy mayor, Patrick Klugman, said at least 118 people were killed at the concert hall alone. The final death toll was not immediately know but was expected to be considerably higher. The mayor’s office later put the toll at 140.
> 
> As the security forces began their assault on the gunmen at the theater, a Guardian journalist on the scene tweeted that medical staff were running toward it, carrying dozens of empty stretchers.
> 
> Outside a popular café, witnesses reported seeing piles of bodies in the street, the café windows having been raked with gunfire. Terrified fans stormed the soccer field after suicide bombers detonated explosives outside the stadium north of Paris.
> 
> The attacks were the worst in France in modern memory, and once again traumatized a country still reeling from three days of terror in January, when Islamist militants killed 12 people at the offices of the satirical publication Charlie Hebdo, left four hostages dead at a kosher supermarket and fatally shot a police officer.
> 
> The explosions near the soccer stadium forced authorities to evacuate President Francois Hollande, who was among thousands watching a friendly match between France and Germany.
> 
> Hollande later went on national television to announce a state of emergency, including travel restrictions and the closing of French borders. He said security forces were continuing to battle terrorists in at least one location.
> 
> “We know who these terrorists are,” he said, without elaborating. “These terrorists want to make us afraid and seize us with fear. . . . This is a nation that defends itself.”
> 
> Police said at least 15 people were killed in the Bataclan theater, where a hostage-taking was underway, and 11 were slain at a Paris restaurant in the 10th Arrondissement, the Associated Press said in an initial report. An American rock band was performing at the time of the attack.
> 
> Witnesses said three or four men clad in black used assault rifles to mow down audience members at the concert hall.
> 
> There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, which were nevertheless celebrated on social media linked to the Islamic State extremist group, a ruthless al-Qaeda offshoot also known as ISIS and ISIL.
> 
> Within minutes of the first reports on the violence, Islamic State supporters created hashtags hailing “Paris in flames” and declaring that “ISIS is attacking Paris,” the Vocativ Web site reported.
> 
> “O crusaders we are coming to you with bombs and rifles,” a top propagandist from an unofficial Islamic State media wing tweeted in Arabic. He ended the tweet: “Wait for us.”
> 
> In Washington, the White House said President Obama “was briefed on the situation in Paris by Lisa Monaco, assistant to the president for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism.”
> 
> A somber Obama subsequently appeared in the White House briefing room to offer condolences and U.S. help “to bring these terrorists to justice.”
> 
> He said it was not just an assault on France but “an attack on all of humanity and the universal values we share.” Obama added, “Those that think they can terrorize the people of France and the values they stand for are wrong.”
> 
> “We are going to do whatever it takes to work with the French people and with nations around the world to bring these terrorists to justice and to go after any terrorist networks that go after our people,” Obama said. He pledged whatever help he could provide to the French government and praised it as an “extraordinary counterterrorism partner.”
> 
> Obama, who is scheduled to leave Saturday for the Group of 20 summit in Turkey, said he spoke prior to the attacks with Hollande and plans to talk with him again in the coming days. “
> 
> “This is a heartbreaking situation, and obviously those of us in the United States know what it’s like,” he said. “We’ve gone through these kinds of episodes ourselves.”
> 
> “All of Paris needs our prayers tonight,” House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) tweeted.
> 
> The Washington Post’s Ryan Weber, currently in Paris, reported that some of Paris’s main Metro stations were closed down on Friday night, including the one at the Gare du Nord, one of the city’s principal train stations.
> 
> Although Paris residents were urged to stay indoors, hundreds streamed down the Boulevard Magenta waving French flags, trying to reach the Stade de France stadium to show solidarity with the victims.
> 
> Mary Lou Dorio, the mother of Julian Dorio, the drummer for Eagles of Death Metal band, told The Post that her son and other band members managed to escape the Bataclan concert hall when the attack there began. However, the fate of several crew members remains unknown, she said.
> 
> “It was awful,” the mother said. She added that her son was at a local police station, where he was able to call his wife.
> 
> “It was a bloodbath,” said Julien Pearce, a French radio reporter, in an interview with CNN. He said he was at the concert and saw three or four young men dressed in black open fire on the crowd with assault rifles, firing at random as people screamed.
> 
> “They didn’t shout anything; they didn’t say anything,” he said of the assailants. “They were just shooting [at] people.” He said he saw at least 20 bodies. “Some were dead. Others were very badly wounded,” he said. Roughly 1,000 people were attending the concert in the relatively small venue, he said.
> 
> Pearce said panicked concertgoers scrambled over the bodies of the fallen as they tried to escape. He said he managed to hide in a small room off the stage, then ran for an exit when the shooting briefly stopped as the gunmen reloaded. He said he picked up a young girl who had been shot twice in the leg and carried her into the street on his back, then put her in a taxi to be taken to a hospital. “I don’t know if she made it,” he said, noting that she was bleeding profusely. “She was collapsing.”
> 
> Pearce said friends later told him that they heard the gunmen speaking in French to each other.
> 
> A State Department official traveling with Secretary of State John F. Kerry in Vienna said he was “closely monitoring events in Paris, and our embassy there is working to account for any U.S. citizens involved.”
> 
> Hillary Rodham Clinton said in a Tweet: “The reports from Paris are harrowing. Praying for the city and families of the victims.”
> 
> Witnesses said at least three explosions were heard near the soccer stadium, two of them during the first half of the France-Germany match. Fans were barred from leaving the stadium after the match but were allowed to gather on the pitch.
> 
> “At first I had no idea what was happening; I thought it was fireworks,” a woman who gave her name as Sophie said on France 24 radio, describing the scene at La Belle Equipe restaurant, which was among several places that came under attack. “Reality came to me and all I could do was get to safety. I didn’t have the time to count bodies, but there were many. There was an American celebrating her birthday.” Sophie did not specify what happened to the American.
> 
> “The terrace was full of people; it was a very crowded bar,” she said. “I looked to my left and right. There were people crawling. . . . It was carnage from all sides.”
> 
> The French Foreign Ministry said airports would remain open and that flights and train service would continue, Reuters news agency reported.
> 
> American Airlines said Friday it was nevertheless delaying flights to Paris in response to the attacks there.
> 
> United Continental said its three scheduled flights would still depart for Paris on Friday evening from hubs in Chicago, Newark and Washington, D.C., as planned.



Also, link to WaPo's live feed updates:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews-live/liveblog/live-updates-attacks-in-paris/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-high_paris-blog%3Aliveblog%2Fpromo


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## Stoker

From Daily Mirror

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/paris-attacks-isis-gunmen-shouted-6830234

Paris attacks: ISIS gunmen shouted 'Allah Akbar' as victims were slaughtered in co-ordinated attacks


By Keith Perry

One witness inside the Bataclan hall told how gunmen burst in shouting “Allah Akbar” - God is the greatest – before opening fire. They were also heard to shout: “This is for Syria”

Terrified hostages told how IS thugs slaughtered victims “one by one” during a siege at a concert hall as Paris was plunged into murderous chaos.

At least 60 people had been killed in the gun and bomb attacks said to have been launched in revenge for the US missile strike that killed British terror thug Jihadi John in Syria.

French president Francois Hollande ­immediately closed the country’s borders as the nation came to terms with the second major terrorist strike on its shore since the Charlie Hebdo massacre in January.

At least 11 people were killed in the Bataclan concert hall when gunmen stormed the building and more than 100 were being kept hostage.

The building was one of seven targeted by the terrorists. The Louvre art gallery, the Les Halles shopping centre and the Stade de France arena – where the national football team was hosting Germany in a 

friendly - were also hit. Two loud explosions were heard outside the stadium. One witness inside the Bataclan hall told how gunmen burst in shouting “Allah Akbar” - God is the greatest – before opening fire. 

They were also heard to shout: “This is for Syria.”

One witness said: “The men came in and started shooting. Everyone fell to the ground. It was hell. I took my mum, and we hid. Someone near us said they have gone, so we ran out. I was only thinking of 

escaping. We’re out now. People are still inside. It’s a nightmare, a nightmare.”

Student Gilles Avel was out with friends close to the Bataclan – where US band Eagles of Death Metal was playing. The 19-year-old said: “We are all terrified and have been told to get away as soon as 

possible. There were shots and then lots of people running.”

Witness Andrew Smith posted on Twitter: “Hostages from the theatre have been released and are walking down rue Oberkampf. Some are literally shaking with fear.

“They are hugging each other. One guy fainted on reaching the relative safety of our street.

“I’m watching the casualties go by our front window and I’m starting to feel anger.”

“A few people on stretchers are being wheeled past us. Gunshot wounds in chest.”

The carnage began when a AK47-wielding gunman attacked a Korean restaurant in the Bastille area of the city.

Grenade blasts were also heard. Anti-terrorist police and soldiers could be seen flooding into the area. At least two terrorists were said to have been killed by police.

There were reports two blasts near the Stade de France was caused by suicide bombers. Three people were reportedly killed in the attacks. Players briefly stopped in their tracks when they heard the 

blasts. Following news of the strikes, thousands of fans too scared to leave the stadium poured onto the pitch.

Ben Grant, who was in a nearby bar with his wife at the time, said he saw six or seven bodies on the ground. He added: “I was told people in cars had opened fire on the bar. There are lots of dead people. 

It’s pretty horrific to be honest.

“I heard gunshots. People dropped to the ground. We put a table over our heads to protect us.

“We were held up in the bar because there was a pile of bodies in front of us.”

President Hollande was inside the stadium at the time of the attack, but was since been rushed to the Interior Ministry to deal with the unfolding situation. He said later: “This is a terrible hardship. We know 

who these terrorists are. We knew they were coming for us. We have to show unity and keep our cool. France must great and strong. We need to call on everyone to be responsible.

“It is something to be afraid. France needs to be strong. Terrorists want us to be scared. In the face of terror we must be united.`

“We will overcome these terrorists. Long live France.” US officials believe the attacks were already planned but were brought forward following the killing of Jihadi John by an American drone strike. David 

Cameron said he was “shocked by events in Paris” and pledged to do “whatever we can to help”. The PM added: “Our thoughts and prayers are with the French people.”

Barack Obama said the US is “prepared and ready” to provide ­assistance to France, who he described as America’s “oldest ally”.

The president said: “This is an attack not just on Paris. It’s an attack not just on the people of France. But this is an attack on all of humanity and the universal values we share. It is a heartbreaking 

situation. We’re going to do whatever it takes to bring these terrorists to justice.”

The attacks come two weeks before Mr Cameron, Mr Obama and other world leaders are due to travel to Paris for climate talks.

Reports said several Paris Metro lines have been closed following the attacks.

Paris’ deputy mayor said the massacre was a horrific reminder of the Charlie Hebdo murders. He added: “It’s a heavy recollection of what happened in January. Now we are struck again. This is harder. I am 

shaken.”

John Cohen, a former US Homeland Security Department counter-terrorism co-ordinator, said the presence of multiple attack scenes suggested a co-ordinated effort to “send a message” and raises 

immediate terror concerns, including for other cities in Europe and potentially the US as well.


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## Vimy01

Jesus Christ... How in the world do we stop these guys? 
I hope the French unleash the almighty rath of God on those motherfuckers.


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## opcougar

Blasphemy...."these guys" being?

May the souls of the dead rest in peace. Nobody deserves to be killed like this  












http://www.reuters.com/news/picture/paris-under-attack?articleId=USRTS6VT0#YO3DtxoPKOyjQSwk.97



			
				Vimy01 said:
			
		

> *Jesus Christ.*.. How in the world do we stop *these guys?*
> I hope the French unleash the almighty rath of God on those motherfuckers.


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## PuckChaser

Vimy01 said:
			
		

> Jesus Christ... How in the world do we stop these guys?
> I hope the French unleash the almighty rath of God on those motherfuckers.


If they do, NATO's getting dragged in. France could declare it has been attacked and request alliance assistance to strike.


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## TwoTonShackle

Vimy01 said:
			
		

> Jesus Christ... How in the world do we stop these guys?
> I hope the French unleash the almighty rath of God on those motherfuckers.



Here is a quote from French President Francois Hollande about tonights attacks: 
"We will lead the fight. It will be ruthless,"


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## Oscar590

Foreign Legion is gonna go to town on them.


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## opcougar

Every other Western European country is on full alert to say the least. Hollande was at a football game watchin France v Germany.

U2 is also in town rehearsing for a gig

A California band ' death of the heavy metal' was playing a concert when a nutcase blew himself up

Innocent people at a restaurant were victims of another nutcase suicide bomber

The death toll keeps rising as we speak. I am watching the NBC special right now


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## Alpha dog

Damn it!!! I'm sick of these fanatics! 
As a human being, as a Canadian, as a Muslim Canadian, I AM SICK to my stomach... Feeling so helpless and frustrated.


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## OldSolduer

Lean-N-Supreme said:
			
		

> Foreign Legion is gonna go to town on them.




Someone will go to town on them....

First thing - police must show presence in so called "no go zones". Lawful authority must be exerted.


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## McG

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If they do, NATO's getting dragged in. France could declare it has been attacked and request alliance assistance to strike.


ISIS call itself a state, and it has attacked a NATO country.  We may have an article 5 obligation to keep our CF18 in the Middle East.


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## opcougar

I don't think anyone recognizes ISIS as a "state". They can call themselves whatever they want, doesn't mean the word sees them as such



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> ISIS call itself a state, and it has attacked a NATO country.  We may have an article 5 obligation to keep our CF18 in the Middle East.


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## tomahawk6

Prayers for those killed and a speedy recovery for the injured.


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## cavalryman

opcougar said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone recognizes ISIS as a "state". They can call themselves whatever they want, doesn't mean the word sees them as such


And that makes them less of a target for utter annihilation how?  They consider themselves a state.  Time to humour the buggers.


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## Vimy01

MCG said:
			
		

> ISIS call itself a state, and it has attacked a NATO country.  We may have an article 5 obligation to keep our CF18 in the Middle East.



I don't think it would meet the criteria of an article 5 obligation. But it does meet the criteria of the right thing to do. 
Canada has a moral and ethical obligation to keep our CF18s out there. 
God forbid anything were to happen to our homeland. 
At the end of the day, I sleep a bit easier at night knowing our boys and girls over there dropping ordnance on these cowards. 
I'd rather fight then retreat.


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## PuckChaser

MCG said:
			
		

> ISIS call itself a state, and it has attacked a NATO country.  We may have an article 5 obligation to keep our CF18 in the Middle East.


Completely agree, although I feel airstrikes aren't going to be enough here. You can only effect so much change without touching the ground you want to change.


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## OldSolduer

cavalryman said:
			
		

> And that makes them less of a target for utter annihilation how?  They consider themselves a state.  Time to humour the buggers.




The only way to win...if you can...is boots on the ground. It's time to unleash the dogs of war.

The battle of ideas is more complex and takes time to win. Their ideas have to be countered with ours.


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## cavalryman

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The only way to win...if you can...is boots on the ground. It's time to unleash the dogs of war.


I'm a fan of LTC Tom Kratman's proposition for dealing with jihadis.  Dogs of war indeed.


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## opcougar

Look at how much good that did in Iraq. Yes Saddam was captured, but that didn't exactly solve the issues there



			
				Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> *The only way to win...if you can...is boots on the ground. *It's time to unleash the dogs of war.
> 
> The battle of ideas is more complex and takes time to win. Their ideas have to be countered with ours.


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## NavyShooter

Vimy01 said:
			
		

> I'd rather fight *then* retreat.



*than....?

I believe we get the sentiment though.

NS


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## OldSolduer

Then what's your solution? Let them set up camp and have tea and crumpets win them and hope they don't try to slit our collective throats?

Their aim is clear - radical fundamentalist Islam is bent on either converting all of us or killing those that won't convert. There is no negotitation to be had with them. 

You cannot win a war by air power and drone strikes.


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## Jed

opcougar said:
			
		

> Look at how much good that did in Iraq. Yes Saddam was captured, but that didn't exactly solve the issues there



No coralation.  opcougar Is this your solution?  eace:


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## tomahawk6

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Then what's your solution? Let them set up camp and have tea and crumpets win them and hope they don't try to slit our collective throats?
> 
> Their aim is clear - radical fundamentalist Islam is bent on either converting all of us or killing those that won't convert. There is no negotitation to be had with them.
> 
> You cannot win a war by air power and drone strikes.



Quite right.Its tough to say this but this refugee migration/invasion from the middle east cannot be allowed.They are a security threat to every country that takes them in.France and Germany already have large unassimilated muslim communities,with Sweden not far behind.


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## jollyjacktar

opcougar said:
			
		

> Look at how much good that did in Iraq. Yes Saddam was captured, but that didn't exactly solve the issues there



Well, oh great and wonderful oz, you're always ready to shout how this or that won't work.  I don't hear much from you on what's your brilliant stratagem to defeat ISIS once and for all.


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## cavalryman

ISIS like to revive barbarian practices.  Perhaps we need to revive those of the Roman Empire.  You can't fight jihadists with 21st century western sensibilities - they set the ground rules.  We are stuck for better or worse playing by them unless we want to completely withdraw from the fight.


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## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> Look at how much good that did in Iraq. Yes Saddam was captured, but that didn't exactly solve the issues there



Well it killed Saddam so that solved one issue.

Boots on the ground would stop the ISIS threat. Extended line and advance from one side to the other.


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## opcougar

Now we are talking......as well as ISIS, lets extend the courtesy to murderers / killers, paedophiles, drunk drivers who kill people in this country.



			
				cavalryman said:
			
		

> ISIS like to revive barbarian practices.  *Perhaps we need to revive those of the Roman Empire.*  You can't fight jihadists with 21st century western sensibilities - they set the ground rules.  We are stuck for better or worse playing by them unless we want to completely withdraw from the fight.


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## cavalryman

opcougar said:
			
		

> Now we are talking......as well as ISIS, lets extend the courtesy to murderers / killers, paedophiles, drunk drivers who kill people in this country.


Done :nod:
One of my colleagues was killed by an idiot at the wheel of a truck last week, leaving his kid in hospital with many big surgeries in her future.  No sympathies here whatsoever.


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## OldSolduer

opcougar said:
			
		

> Now we are talking......as well as ISIS, lets extend the courtesy to murderers / killers, paedophiles, drunk drivers who kill people in this country.



You still have not presented your solution. You've only criticized others.


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## dapaterson

I fear less what "they" will do to us than what we will do to ourselves.


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## Eye In The Sky

opcougar said:
			
		

> Now we are talking......as well as ISIS, lets extend the courtesy to murderers / killers, paedophiles, drunk drivers who kill people in this country.



The CCC is in place to deal with all those situations.   

The CCC does not apply to ISIS forces outside our boarders.

See the difference there?


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## opcougar

It will only be fair. I mean if we have born and bred Canadians killing people here, why shouldn't they get the same treatment as ISIS vice just locking them up in prison wasting taxpayers dime.



			
				cavalryman said:
			
		

> Done :nod:


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## Eye In The Sky

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I fear less what "they" will do to us than what we will do to ourselves.



can you elaborate?


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## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I fear less what "they" will do to us than what we will do to ourselves.



And that is a very valid point. We seem to have a number of "fifth columnists" or "useful fools" that excuse and apologize, and legitimize ISIS


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## OldSolduer

opcougar said:
			
		

> It will only be fair. I mean if we have born and bred Canadians killing people here, why shouldn't they get the same treatment as ISIS vice just locking them up in prison wasting taxpayers dime.



The difference is that our "born and bred Canadians" don't subscribe to a policy of beheading those that don't agree with them.

Seriously, you need to shake your head.


----------



## cavalryman

opcougar said:
			
		

> It will only be fair. I mean if we have born and bred Canadians killing people here, why shouldn't they get the same treatment as ISIS vice just locking them up in prison wasting taxpayers dime.


So we agree.  Good to see.


----------



## opcougar

Running a whole family down with your car i.e taking their lives in your book is OK compared to ISIS killing people? Sounds like you condone say a farmer firing on RCMP officers, biker gangs killing people, drug dealers killing people in Vancounver, and rick kids killing a whole family and looking to get off scott free. If it was your family, I guess you will just turn the other cheek?



			
				Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The difference is that our "born and bred Canadians" don't subscribe to a policy of beheading those that don't agree with them.
> 
> Seriously, you need to shake your head.


----------



## dimsum

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> And that is a very valid point. We seem to have a number of "fifth columnists" or "useful fools" that excuse and apologize, and legitimize ISIS



There may be, but I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of tarring all Muslims with the ISIS/jihadist broad stroke.  

Shades of the forced resettlement of Japanese-Americans in WWII and all.


----------



## OldSolduer

opcougar said:
			
		

> Running a whole family down with your car i.e taking their lives in your book is OK compared to ISIS killing people? Sounds like you condone say a farmer firing on RCMP officers, biker gangs killing people, drug dealers killing people in Vancounver, and rick kids killing a whole family and looking to get off scott free. If it was your family, I guess you will just turn the other cheek?



Despite your rantings I shall attempt to be civil with you. In fact, I will be civil with you.

I've lost two children, one to a car accident and the other KIA in Afghanistan. I've also lost friends in car accidents and in Afghanistan. 

Criminal acts that you have described above are Criminal Code Offences and are prosecuted as such.
ISIS and AQ are clear - they mean to destroy our civilization and replace it with the caliphate.

There is a difference, whether you believe it or not.


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> Running a whole family down with your car i.e taking their lives in your book is OK compared to ISIS killing people? Sounds like you condone say a farmer firing on RCMP officers, biker gangs killing people, drug dealers killing people in Vancounver, and rick kids killing a whole family and looking to get off scott free. If it was your family, I guess you will just turn the other cheek?



WTF are you talking about? Trying to read your posts feels like bear marching on purpose.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

opcougar said:
			
		

> Running a whole family down with your car i.e taking their lives in your book is OK compared to ISIS killing people? Sounds like you condone say a farmer firing on RCMP officers, biker gangs killing people, drug dealers killing people in Vancounver, and rick kids killing a whole family and looking to get off scott free. If it was your family, I guess you will just turn the other cheek?



it's as okay as the CCC and our courts let it be, if you, you know, follow our laws and stuff. 

You've done it; you've convinced at least me that you need to FOCUS.

 ^-^


----------



## jmt18325

opcougar said:
			
		

> It will only be fair. I mean if we have born and bred Canadians killing people here, why shouldn't they get the same treatment as ISIS vice just locking them up in prison wasting taxpayers dime.



Because we're a nation of laws.


----------



## CSNorseman

Radical Islam is a contamination, and should be treated as such. The muslim community as a whole has an obligation to discredit terrorist actions taken in the name Islam; and in my opinion they have not been doing enough to dissuade younger muslims that are at risk of radicalization.


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I fear less what "they" will do to us than what we will do to ourselves.



Sadly, likely true:

Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 11:47 AM PDT 

Lessons on how to fight terror 

A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success. 

Britain has been fighting wars against terrorism for most of the years since the end of World War II. The longest war has been in Ireland; but British troops have also fought Jewish and Arab terrorists in Palestine, from 1945-47; Greek terrorists in Greece and Cyprus, Arabs in Aden, Yemen, Oman and Dhofar; Chinese communists in the Malaysian jungles in the 1950s, and so, almost endlessly, on. We’ve lost some, we’ve won some. In Ireland — our most publicized grapple with terror — I think we’ve fought a draw, despite being incomparably richer, more numerous and better armed than our opponents. 

Here are some of the lessons we have learned: 

http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/


----------



## AllSmiles

Thoughts and prayers to the people of France. We must stand together with the survivors and victims of Paris today to reassure them, console them and empathize with them.
Remove our hats and cover our hearts while we offer what we can.
When France has decided what it needs let's do our best to make sure that us Canadians are ready to support our brothers across the pond.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Oops.  Some may not be interested in a war against "Islam", but at least a very small part of "Islam" is interested in a war against you.

>Yes Saddam was captured, but that didn't exactly solve the issues there

The only thing stopping a coalition from going in and ripping IS* (or whoever) to shreds is political will.  Resource and capability constraints are negligible.  Really, there is nothing stopping "us" from going in and hanging every political and military leader of IS* (or whoever) from corporal to president from a lamppost, telling the Hague to fu<k off, and then reverting back to whatever we imagine to be "humanitarian" standards thereafter.  Repeat as needed until they start going after softer targets.

It is commonplace to assert that if we do "X", we are no better than they are.  That is not really true.  For example, I may stipulate that against the Germans and Japanese we committed atrocities, but it is irrevocably true that with the war won we set those means aside.  Those who use those means routinely are definitely worse.

If the orcs show up, resist.  Fight.  Win.  Or, accept the occasional losses, commiserate with the victims over their bad luck, and move on.  As long as I don't have to listen to any more hand-wringing about how to feed a crocodile.


----------



## Edward Campbell

opcougar said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone recognizes ISIS as a "state". They can call themselves whatever they want, doesn't mean the word sees them as such




Lots of people, including some reputable scholars, like Prof Stephen M Walt of Harvard, writing in the current issue of _Foreign Affairs_, call it just that.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The only way to win...if you can...is boots on the ground. It's time to unleash the dogs of war.
> 
> The battle of ideas is more complex and takes time to win. Their ideas have to be countered with ours.




There are, already, plenty of "boots on the ground" and we needn't add unwelcome Western ones. We, the US led West, should be selling them weapons and we should be encouraging young Muslim men to join one side or the other, not to take refuge in Canada.

The better course of action is to sell arms and watch from the sidelines, over the course of a generation (or two or three) as the peoples of the regions (North Africa, the Near and Middle East and South West Asia) sort themselves out in their own, _bloody_, ways.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Dimsum said:
			
		

> There may be, but I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of tarring all Muslims with the ISIS/jihadist broad stroke.
> 
> Shades of the forced resettlement of Japanese-Americans in WWII and all.



I agree 100% ...
.
.
.
... _but_ (there's always a "but" isn't there?)
.
.
.
... Brad is also correct when he says "at least a very small part of "Islam" is interested in a war against you."

We, the US led West, need to concern ourselves with that "small part," not the corner store shopkeeper or the engineer or the taxi driver just trying to make a life for his or her family as best (s)he can.

We need to help that "small" part ~ which is already engaged in civil wars and revolutions across the whole _Islamic Crescent_ (which stretches from Morocco on the Atlantic all the way through the Middle East and South Asia to Indonesia) ~ to fight its own wars against its own, real, internal enemies, other "small parts" of Islam. We can help by selling arms and denying visas.


----------



## Edward Campbell

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Sadly, likely true:
> 
> Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 11:47 AM PDT
> 
> Lessons on how to fight terror
> 
> A message from the United Kingdom: Don't torture. Don't shoot boys who throw stones. And don't imagine for a moment that there is any guarantee of success.
> 
> _Britain has been fighting wars against terrorism for most of the years since the end of World War II._ The longest war has been in Ireland; but British troops have also fought Jewish and Arab terrorists in Palestine, from 1945-47; Greek terrorists in Greece and Cyprus, Arabs in Aden, Yemen, Oman and Dhofar; Chinese communists in the Malaysian jungles in the 1950s, and so, almost endlessly, on. We’ve lost some, we’ve won some. In Ireland — our most publicized grapple with terror — I think we’ve fought a draw, despite being incomparably richer, more numerous and better armed than our opponents.
> 
> Here are some of the lessons we have learned:
> 
> http://www.salon.com/2001/09/19/fighting_terror/




Just a tiny historical quibble: the Brits have been "fighting wars against terrorism" since the 16th century: against e.g. the Earls of Tyrone in Ireland and then against First Nations (who, being weaker, used "terrorist" type tactics) in North America and against the Boers, in the late 19th century, who abandoned modern tactics after Paardeberg.


----------



## Remius

opcougar said:
			
		

> Running a whole family down with your car i.e taking their lives in your book is OK compared to ISIS killing people? Sounds like you condone say a farmer firing on RCMP officers, biker gangs killing people, drug dealers killing people in Vancounver, and rick kids killing a whole family and looking to get off scott free. If it was your family, I guess you will just turn the other cheek?



I'm getting the feeling that you are trolling.

Someone mentioned roman methods.  The Romans had a very simple way of dealing with this kind of thing.  You roll in hard and take out the plague.  All of it.  It might be the only thing they understand.  No nation building, no hearts and minds, no connecting with communities.  You go in and kill the bad guys and get out. Rinse and repeat if they start up again.  

Mr. Campbell offers another solution. Just get out.  Completely and let the Middle East sort itself out.  Secure our borders, invest that money in our own security apparatus and then see what emerges.  If it sucks then see my first suggestion.

There is no one solution.  I see chirping about our cf 18 s all over the net.  Our CF18s are not making a difference.  They clearly didn't prevent this.  Half hearted commitments or symbolic commitments are not going to end this.  You either go all in or not at all and deal with whatever gets created after. And even then.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> We, the US led West, need to concern ourselves with that "small part," not the corner store shopkeeper or the engineer or the taxi driver just trying to make a life for his or her family as best (s)he can.


:goodpost:


			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> I fear less what "they" will do to us than what we will do to ourselves.


:goodpost: too

Meanwhile, back to the "whazzup?" bits ....

CNN:  _"ISIS claimed responsibility for gunfire and blasts that targeted six sites in Paris, killing 128 people in one of the nation's deadliest massacres.  In an online statement distributed by supporters, the terror group said eight militants wearing explosive belts and armed with machine guns attacked precisely selected areas in the French capital ...."_
_Washington Post_:  _"French President François Hollande decried the massacres across Paris as an “act of war” by the Islamic State, amplifying signals Saturday of a major response from France and its allies after coordinated gunfire and bombings that killed at least 127 people.  Moments later, a message attributed to the Islamic State asserted responsibility for the worst attacks in France since World War II and among of the most deadly terrorist strikes on Western soil since Sept. 11, 2001 ...."_
_New York Times_:  _"President François Hollande called the terrorist attacks that killed 127 people in Paris on Friday night an “act of war,” and blamed the slaughter on the Islamic State.  “It is an act of war that was committed by a terrorist army, a jihadist army, Daesh, against France,” Mr. Hollande said from the Élysée Palace, using an Arabic acronym for the Islamic State. “It is an act of war that was prepared, organized and planned from abroad, with complicity from the inside, which the investigation will help establish.”  Mr. Hollande did not specify what intelligence the authorities had gathered to established the Islamic State’s involvement ...."_


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the National Council of Canadian Muslims:


> _*The National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM), a prominent Muslim civil liberties & advocacy organization, condemns today's horrific and despicable terrorist attacks in Paris, France.*_
> 
> In a statement, the NCCM said:
> 
> "Canadians are expressing deep shock and sharing in the immense grief felt around the world today at the tragic events currently unfolding in Paris, France. The NCCM categorically condemns these horrific attacks and all acts of violent extremism and terrorism wherever and whenever they occur.  There is no justification of any kind for such criminal acts.
> 
> "Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of France, and with the families of those killed and injured, as well as with the first responders and security officials who will be working to track down those responsible in order to swiftly bring the perpetrators to justice."
> 
> The NCCM is an independent, non-partisan, and non-profit grassroots advocacy organization. It is a leading voice for Muslim civic engagement and the promotion of human rights.


----------



## opcougar

Sorry for your loss....but just because I have listed my own personal tragedy, doesn't mean I do not know what it's like to lose loved ones. Criminal code or no criminal code. The guy that behead someone a few years back on a bus in this country....please tell me how that differs from what ISIS is doing, and how he gets to use taxpayers money to plead "insanity"?

I am sure for most Canadians...if another person kills a close member of their family be it by home invasion, accident like the recent one outside Toronto or texting while driving, I doubt most will say lock that person up we are fine with that. Many deep down will want an eye for an eye



			
				Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Despite your rantings I shall attempt to be civil with you. In fact, I will be civil with you.
> 
> I've lost two children, one to a car accident and the other KIA in Afghanistan. I've also lost friends in car accidents and in Afghanistan.
> 
> Criminal acts that you have described above are Criminal Code Offences and are prosecuted as such.
> ISIS and AQ are clear - they mean to destroy our civilization and replace it with the caliphate.
> 
> There is a difference, whether you believe it or not.


----------



## opcougar

I can easily say the same about you...takes one to know one right? NO...I refuse to be part of this "they", "these people", etc that has xenophobic undertones to it. It's like when you listen to racist people speak (I am White Anglican by the way), and they refer to non-Caucasians as "these people" i.e. "these people come over here as immigrants / refugees". To some nincompoops in this country, they see only minorities as refugees / immigrants. I have head and seen such comments made, and it baffles me the ignorance of some people. Many don't even know that it cost thousands of dollars in application fees either through (work, spousal, family) to emigrate to Canada, and you can still get rejected with no refund.

So tarnishing a whole religion is just 'naff' (Brit slang') / crass IMHO.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> *I'm getting the feeling that you are trolling.*
> 
> Someone mentioned roman methods.  The Romans had a very simple way of dealing with this kind of thing.  You roll in hard and take out the plague.  All of it.  It might be the only thing they understand.  No nation building, no hearts and minds, no connecting with communities.  You go in and kill the bad guys and get out. Rinse and repeat if they start up again.
> 
> Mr. Campbell offers another solution. Just get out.  Completely and let the Middle East sort itself out.  Secure our borders, invest that money in our own security apparatus and then see what emerges.  If it sucks then see my first suggestion.
> 
> There is no one solution.  I see chirping about our cf 18 s all over the net.  Our CF18s are not making a difference.  They clearly didn't prevent this.  Half hearted commitments or symbolic commitments are not going to end this.  You either go all in or not at all and deal with whatever gets created after. And even then.


----------



## Remius

opcougar said:
			
		

> I can easily say the same about you...takes one to know one right? NO...I refuse to be part of this "they", "these people", etc that has xenophobic undertones to it. It's like when you listen to racist people speak (I am White Anglican by the way), and they refer to non-Caucasians as "these people" i.e. "these people come over here as immigrants / refugees". To some nincompoops in this country, they see only minorities as refugees / immigrants. I have head and seen such comments made, and it baffles me the ignorance of some people. Many don't even know that it cost thousands of dollars in application fees either through (work, spousal, family) to emigrate to Canada, and you can still get rejected with no refund.
> 
> So tarnishing a whole religion is just 'naff' (Brit slang') / crass IMHO.



No, you are deliberately trying to get people riled up.  Sorry, that's trolling.  Your opinions are all over the map.  If you can't see the difference between a schizophrenic who attacks a guy on a bus or a drunk driver killing someone, and a murderous thug who is ideologically driven to commit murder and then come into a thread challenging people to tell you what the difference is and how our reaction shouldn't be any different then yeah, you are trolling.  

The fact that you you use the classics "I know you are but what am I" line tells me all, I need to know.


----------



## opcougar

So if Prof. Stephen says so, then it is right then? Wow.... what else has the Prof said about the state of the world today, or the recent police brutalities in the US? Let me guess, it's not on his radar



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Lots of people, including some reputable scholars, like Prof Stephen M Walt of Harvard, writing in the current issue of _Foreign Affairs_, call it just that.


----------



## Edward Campbell

opcougar said:
			
		

> So if Prof. Stephen says so, then it is right then? Wow.... what else has the Prof said about the state of the world today, or the recent police brutalities in the US? Let me guess, it's not on his radar



Nope, but you said _"I don't think anyone recognizes ISIS as a "state"."_ and I just pointed out that that's not quite true ...

Anyway, I assume you can use _Google_ and, since Prof Walt has written  a great many articles and books on many, many topics, I guess you can find his views on issues without my help.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There are, already, plenty of "boots on the ground" and we needn't add unwelcome Western ones. We, the US led West, should be selling them weapons and we should be encouraging young Muslim men to join one side or the other, not to take refuge in Canada.
> 
> The better course of action is to sell arms and watch from the sidelines, over the course of a generation (or two or three) as the peoples of the regions (North Africa, the Near and Middle East and South West Asia) sort themselves out in their own, _bloody_, ways.



The problem is, we have far too many interests in the region to completely disengage.  There is also every indication that whatever comes out of doing this could be worse than what is presently occurring.  I personally think what we should do is the following:

1.  Instead of bringing all the refugees to our Western countries, send the military in to Northern Syria to establish a safe zone where we can set up refugee camps that we will man and protect.

2.  Send a special operations task force in to Syria and Iraq to conduct an "unrestricted warfare" campaign against ISIS which leaves no rock unturned and no rat hole unsealed.  No nation building and no holding ground, those tasks can be for whatever emerges out of ISIS ashes, I actually think France's enduring operations in Africa are a pretty good model for just such an operation.


----------



## vonGarvin

Re: your first point. YES! After all, what people want is to go home.

This leads to number 2. Let Assad do it. With Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah help. We can watch for leakers and nail them.


----------



## Altair

I hope France invokes article 5 of NATO. 

Take the bastards out once and for all, boots on the ground, jets in the air, ships off the coast.

If you're going to wage war, do it right.

Is there was ever a time to cash in on goodwill for such a operation, it is now.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Re: your first point. YES! After all, what people want is to go home.
> 
> This leads to number 2. Let Assad do it. With Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah help. We can watch for leakers and nail them.



I agree with you.  We need to bring Assad back in to the fold again, this is something I've been convinced of well before these events happened.  Assad isn't our friend but his Regime is secular (or at least was before we screwed it all up).  The guys he is fighting are ISIS and Al Qaeda, they are not our friends and we shouldn't be supporting them.  I'm all for an unholy alliance if it means sending those guys to get their 78 virgins.  

Let Assad, along with Russian support concentrate on "La Syrie Utile" and we can focus on working the periphery.  The Kurds and Shiites can decide amongst themselves what to do with the rest of Iraq and Assad and the YPG can come to some sort of power sharing agreement in Northern Syria, with Turkish approval of course.

Western Special Forces should be inserted in to the deserts of Syria and Iraq to wreak havoc on ISIS lines of communication and supply.  No holding ground, just unrestricted raiding and pillaging.  The other parties can mop up what's left.

Edit:

PPCLI Guy does bring up a very good point though:



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Here's a counter narrative for you on the whole refugee / migrant front.
> 
> 1)  By some counts, there are 11M people who have made the decision that having their families barrel bombed by their own government is a bad idea, and have decided to leave (I do not trust those numbers).
> 2)  Assad reinstated the mandatory service clause for all "fighting aged males" in the Spring, asking people to contribute to the bombing of their own homes and families
> 3)  The people on the move could have walked 150 miles to Raqqah to join the Caliphate.  Instead, they walked 1500 miles to Rotterdam or 2500 miles to Rouen - and then on to Regina.
> 
> I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> We have radicals here (in the West) now.  They are either home-grown or plants - likely the former, as the latter requires a degree of sophistication so far lacking in ISIL tactics - it is so much easier to turn someone in place, than to train and dispatch them.  Either way, we have mechanisms and institutions charged with protecting us from that threat.  So far, they have done a bloody good job.
> 
> I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well.
> 
> Alternatively, we could close our borders, harden our hearts to the suffering of others, forgo all civil liberties, and be very safe.
> 
> That is not the Canada I wish to serve.



In light of this I'm willing the change my opinion that we should seal off the border completely; however, my point #2 still stands.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I agree with you.  We need to bring Assad back in to the fold again, this is something I've been convinced of well before these events happened.  Assad isn't our friend but his Regime is secular (or at least was before we screwed it all up).  The guys he is fighting are ISIS and Al Qaeda, they are not our friends and we shouldn't be supporting them.  I'm all for an unholy alliance if it means sending those guys to get their 78 virgins.
> 
> Let Assad, along with Russian support concentrate on "La Syrie Utile" and we can focus on working the periphery.  The Kurds and Shiites can decide amongst themselves what to do with the rest of Iraq and Assad and the YPG can come to some sort of power sharing agreement in Northern Syria, with Turkish approval of course.
> 
> Western Special Forces should be inserted in to the deserts of Syria and Iraq to wreak havoc on ISIS lines of communication and supply.  No holding ground, just unrestricted raiding and pillaging.  The other parties can mop up what's left.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> PPCLI Guy does bring up a very good point though:
> 
> In light of this I'm willing the change my opinion that we should seal off the border completely; however, my point #2 still stands.



Or we could invite even more of them to the West and form them into an army to liberate the homeland they have abandoned. Call it Op De Opresso Libres.

Just sayin'...


----------



## OldTanker

Watching our Prime Minister respond to the events in Paris last night I was struck that I was seeing more Maggie than Pierre. I appreciate he was responding with scant information and correctly was not making policy decisions based on initial reports, but even so he seemed unable to keep a nervous grin off his face at times. I think he is in for a huge shock when his unicorns turn into dragons. I wish him all the best, he is the Prime Minister of OUR country, but . . .


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Altair said:
			
		

> I hope France invokes article 5 of NATO.
> 
> Take the bastards out once and for all, boots on the ground, jets in the air, ships off the coast.
> 
> If you're going to wage war, do it right.
> 
> Is there was ever a time to cash in on goodwill for such a operation, it is now.



So the PM should revisit his decision to pull out of Syria?


----------



## dapaterson

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> And that is a very valid point. We seem to have a number of "fifth columnists" or "useful fools" that excuse and apologize, and legitimize ISIS



My concern is more with our (potential) overreaction and overreach.  Striking out in pure anger without thinking through what we wish to accomplish does not result in success.  Overbroad legal actions that empower the state without protection for citizens erode our freedoms.

I do not want to be at war with Oceania because we have always been at war with Oceania.  I do not want to be part of the two minute hate.

It may well be that, as the Bard wrote, "Hell is empty.  And all the devils are here".  But we need to also remember Nietzsche: "And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."


----------



## dapaterson

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> So the PM should revisit his decision to pull out of Syria?



In fact, the direction was to stop combat and increase training and humanitarian aid.  Which will probably result in more, not fewer, CAF members deployed.

"Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support." http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter


----------



## McG

Arrests made in Belgium: http://news.nationalpost.com/news/arrests-made-in-belgium-in-connection-to-vehicle-spotted-near-site-of-paris-attacks-justice-minister-says



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> In fact, the direction was to stop combat and increase training and humanitarian aid.  Which will probably result in more, not fewer, CAF members deployed.
> 
> "Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support." http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter


Sounds right.  NTM-A was a huge footprint to build an Afghan army.  We could see more of the same in Iraq.


----------



## Kirkhill

3 thoughts

1 re ISIL as  a state - Israel is not universally recognized and yet is treated as such

2 re terrorism - terrorism is akin to Al Capone in Chicago,  biker wars and mediaeval brigands extorting blackmail  - it is a state of lawlessness that can only be combatted by constant, local, vigorous, and occasionally violent policing.  I feel no sympathy for dandelions.

3 re the GoC response - no matter what the youngster decides just imagine how much worse the response would have been if Harper's fascists had been in charge.
...


----------



## vonGarvin

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> 3 thoughts
> 
> 1 re ISIL as  a state - Israel is not universally recognized and yet is treated as such
> 
> 2 re terrorism - terrorism is akin to Al Capone in Chicago,  biker wars and mediaeval brigands extorting blackmail  - it is a state of lawlessness that can only be combatted by constant, local, vigorous, and occasionally violent policing.  I feel no sympathy for dandelions.
> 
> 3 re the GoC response - no matter what the youngster decides just imagine how much worse the response would have been if Harper's fascists had been in charge.
> ...


Fascists?  Really?

:


----------



## dapaterson

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Fascists?  Really?
> 
> :



Methinks there was a tongue firmly in cheek there.


----------



## Stoker

At least one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34823938


----------



## Tuan

Altair said:
			
		

> I hope France invokes article 5 of NATO.
> 
> Take the bastards out once and for all, boots on the ground, jets in the air, ships off the coast.
> 
> If you're going to wage war, do it right.
> 
> Is there was ever a time to cash in on goodwill for such a operation, it is now.



That means you believe in the concept that “terrorism/violence can only be neutralized by terrorism/violence” – a classic ‘eye for eye, tooth for tooth’ discourse that would eventually have the whole world blind and toothless.

Let me also quote Martin Luther King  Jr. " Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."


----------



## PuckChaser

Give one of those dudes with an explosive belt a hug. See how it works out. Martin Luther King Jr was talking about a completely different era and different socio-economic issues internal to one country.


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> But we need to also remember Nietzsche: "And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."



I've always wondered that this meant.



			
				Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> At least one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34823938



The thing is every single attacker could be a "refugee" but we're still going to take on 25'000 of them. Anything less would cause the new government lose face and I suspect that superceeds all of our security concerns.


----------



## Tuan

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The thing is every single attacker could be a "refugee" but we're still going to take on 25'000 of them. Anything less would cause the new government lose face and I suspect that superceeds all of our security concerns.



My biggest worry is these attacks were launched by some fake "refugees" and we begin to put limits on genuine ones.


----------



## George Wallace

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> At least one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34823938



It is 'suspected' that one of the attackers was a refugee that came through Greece.  In this report, they found a passport near the body of one of two suicide bombers.  Whether the passport was his, or stolen, has yet to be positively determined.  It will take forensic identification to match the fingerprinting that was done with refugees entering the EU.  

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/14/syrian-greece-refugee-paris-attacks-killers?CMP=share_btn_fb

Also mentioned in that article was that German Polizei had intercepted a man with a car load of automatic weapons:



> In southern Germany, the Bavarian state premier, Horst Seehofer, said there was “reason to believe” that a man arrested last week during a routine motorway check with “many machine guns, revolvers and explosives” in his car might “possibly be linked” to the attacks.


----------



## Stoker

Tuan said:
			
		

> My biggest worry is these attacks were launched by some fake "refugees" and we begin to put limits on genuine ones.



Of course its not the refugees, the problem is that its hard to tell between the legit ones and the ones mixed in by ISIS. Therefore in my opinion we can't take the chance.


----------



## VinceW

The PM has to change his yellow belly move to remove our CF-18's,bombing them isn't slowing ISIS down much but they represent the most that we can do at the moment


----------



## Haggis

Much sabre rattling will be done by the west.  Motions condemning ISIS will be passed in parliaments and legislatures.  Resolutions will be tabled at the United Nations. 

Soon, there will be peace marches and solidarity rallies in France and around the world (and we should pray that the fanatics don't target those).

None of this matters to ISIS. _Their brand _ of fanaticism is pure, their devotion to that twisted interpretation of Islam is absolute.  Their vision, mission and goals are clear.  Kill the non-believer wherever he may be.  Cleanse the world of the kuffar and embrace the true Islam - or die. They are barbaric, horrific, cruel and terrifyingly successful to date.  Resurrecting medieval executions (burning, beheading etc.) was a masterstroke which served to shock the west into horror.  That horror will only be magnified once a western soldier (Five Eyes) is captured and put to death, surely in a most shocking, dramatic and public manner.  

Their manipulation of the media is absolute.  Just watch the talking heads on CNN who began braying last night that ISIS cannot and will not be defeated.  Heck, I was ready to buy my daughter a burkha!  Their use of mainstream and social media to push their agenda of subservience through horror has shocked the west into going far beyond reasonableness to not offend even secular Muslims or be seen to be fighting against Islam. 

The French president has promised a "pitiless war".  Some here have called for the invocation of Article V of the NATO charter.  Neither, in my opinion, will happen in a meaningful way which leads to a strategic and political victory over ISIS.  The west lacks the stomach for such a fight.


----------



## PuckChaser

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Of course its not the refugees, the problem is that its hard to tell between the legit ones and the ones mixed in by ISIS. Therefore in my opinion we can't take the chance.


We can prioritize women and children, and full families travelling together. You're never going to reduce the chance to 0, but by looking for indicators, we can still help these people out and keep us safe.


----------



## ModlrMike

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Of course its not the refugees, the problem is that its hard to tell between the legit ones and the ones mixed in by ISIS. Therefore in my opinion we can't take the chance.



While one example does not prove the rule, this story should give us pause.

Assailant in Paris Attacks had Syrian Passport


----------



## Tuan

Haggis said:
			
		

> Much sabre rattling will be done by the west.  Motions condemning ISIS will be passed in parliaments and legislatures.  Resolutions will be tabled at the United Nations.
> 
> Soon, there will be peace marches and solidarity rallies in France and around the world (and we should pray that the fanatics don't target those).
> 
> None of this matters to ISIS. _Their brand _ of fanaticism is pure, their devotion to that twisted interpretation of Islam is absolute.  Their vision, mission and goals are clear.  Kill the non-believer wherever he may be.  Cleanse the world of the kuffar and embrace the true Islam - or die. They are barbaric, horrific, cruel and terrifyingly successful to date.  Resurrecting medieval executions (burning, beheading etc.) was a masterstroke which served to shock the west into horror.  That horror will only be magnified once a western soldier (Five Eyes) is captured and put to death, surely in a most shocking, dramatic and public manner.
> 
> Their manipulation of the media is absolute.  Just watch the talking heads on CNN who began braying last night that ISIS cannot and will not be defeated.  Heck, I was ready to buy my daughter a burkha!  Their use of mainstream and social media to push their agenda of subservience through horror has shocked the west into going far beyond reasonableness to not offend even secular Muslims or be seen to be fighting against Islam.
> 
> The French president has promised a "pitiless war".  Some here have called for the invocation of Article V of the NATO charter.  Neither, in my opinion, will happen in a meaningful way which leads to a strategic and political victory over ISIS.  The west lacks the stomach for such a fight.



Agree everything you said, except the last line. The west doesn't lack the stomach for such a fight but unlike ISIS, the west remains humane.


----------



## The Bread Guy

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> While one example does not prove the rule, this story should give us pause.
> 
> Assailant in Paris Attacks had Syrian Passport


Another thing worrying folks, as expressed by several commentators over the last day or so:  our security folks have to get lucky every day, the bad guys only once.  It's all in how we balance the risk/possibilities.


----------



## Stoker

It seems to me that ISIS has used may forms of unconventional warfare, recruiting through social media and so forth. If I were a leader of ISIS, I certainly would be sending fighters in the mob of refugees streaming into Europe to cause mayhem. There are many French, German etc radicalized ISIS members that were sent back to their home countries no doubt to help coordinate attacks as they have intimate knowledge of the area.


----------



## Stoker

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> We can prioritize women and children, and full families travelling together. You're never going to reduce the chance to 0, but by looking for indicators, we can still help these people out and keep us safe.




That's a start and should be considered into the planning stage. There are lots of orphaned childeren we could take in as well, low risk.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Tuan said:
			
		

> My biggest worry is these attacks were launched by some fake "refugees" and we begin to put limits on genuine ones.


My biggest worry is one of the refugee's we take in is really an ISIS agent and slips out and kills my kids in their school.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Haggis said:
			
		

> Much sabre rattling will be done by the west.  Motions condemning ISIS will be passed in parliaments and legislatures.  Resolutions will be tabled at the United Nations.
> 
> Soon, there will be peace marches and solidarity rallies in France and around the world (and we should pray that the fanatics don't target those).
> 
> None of this matters to ISIS. _Their brand _ of fanaticism is pure, their devotion to that twisted interpretation of Islam is absolute.  Their vision, mission and goals are clear.  Kill the non-believer wherever he may be.  Cleanse the world of the kuffar and embrace the true Islam - or die. They are barbaric, horrific, cruel and terrifyingly successful to date.  Resurrecting medieval executions (burning, beheading etc.) was a masterstroke which served to shock the west into horror.  That horror will only be magnified once a western soldier (Five Eyes) is captured and put to death, surely in a most shocking, dramatic and public manner.
> 
> Their manipulation of the media is absolute.  Just watch the talking heads on CNN who began braying last night that ISIS cannot and will not be defeated.  Heck, I was ready to buy my daughter a burkha!  Their use of mainstream and social media to push their agenda of subservience through horror has shocked the west into going far beyond reasonableness to not offend even secular Muslims or be seen to be fighting against Islam.
> 
> The French president has promised a "pitiless war".  Some here have called for the invocation of Article V of the NATO charter.  Neither, in my opinion, will happen in a meaningful way which leads to a strategic and political victory over ISIS.  The west lacks the stomach for such a fight.



If we, the US led West (supported by China) are unwilling to do this ...

     
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




     Boots and tracks on the ground
          ... with several armoured and infantry divisions and, indeed, the whole panoply of modern war, leading to this ...

               
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



               Punitive attacks on enemy held towns and cities
                    ... followed by rather a lot of this ...

                         
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



                         Public (exemplary) executions of enemy leaders
                         _'pour encourager les autres'_
                              ... and then, this ...

                                  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



                                  A speedy withdrawal, leaving the locals to cleanup and rebuild as they wish 

Then ...

           ... we need to do this:

     
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



     A "wall" ~ physical in many places, on what amounts to being on a regional
     basis, separating "them" from "us" until "they" sort themselves out

          ... because this doesn't work:


----------



## Edward Campbell

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> While one example does not prove the rule, this story should give us pause.
> 
> Assailant in Paris Attacks had Syrian Passport




The "usual suspects" are making much of that in some places:


----------



## Haggis

Tuan said:
			
		

> Agree everything you said, except the last line. The west doesn't lack the stomach for such a fight but unlike ISIS, the west remains humane.



Two points for you:

1.  War, in any form, is not humane.  If you believe we can fight a humane war against _any_ foe, you need to give your head a shake.

2. You misunderstand me when I refer to "stomach".  Look back to Gulf War 1.0.  The US-led coalition was well on it's way to Bagdad and would have made it had it not been for the images of kilometers of destroyed Iraqi vehicles lined up on the highway out of Basra.  Those graphic and repeatedly broadcast images were said to have turned US public opinion against the war, resulting in Bush Sr halting the advance on Bagdad.  (One can postulate on how many American and coalition lives could have been saved by finishing off Saddam's regime then rather than later in Gulf War 2.0?).  

The ISIS media arm can and will spin any attack against it for maximum political damage on the attackers at home.  The US media are greedy and will run with the first story they are fed - correct or not - as long as it generates advertising revenue.  They will line up the talking heads to pontificate on what we're doing wrong (because what we're doing right doesn't keep viewers engaged).  This gives ISIS the "even the American media says we're right" international credibility they need to validate their version of events.  Now, we're right back to the conundrum faced by George sr in 1991.  And, I believe that this political fear of adverse public opinion will neuter the western military response in a dramatic way, especially if the actions are launched under a first-term national leader.


----------



## The Bread Guy

An intriguing Canadian angle on the ISIS claim of responsibility ....

A _National Post_ reporter says a Canadian pro-ISIS Tweeter shared this audio (links to non-terrorist page) recorded in English that this Dalhousie post-doc Fellow says is in a Canadian accent.

Keep posting & podcasting, guys - if _I_ can find this ....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Haggis said:
			
		

> 1.  War, in any form, is not humane.  If you believe we can fight a humane war against _any_ foe, you need to give your head a shake.



Well said.


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> If we, the US led West (supported by China) are unwilling to do this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boots and tracks on the ground
> ... with several armoured and infantry divisions and, indeed, the whole panoply of modern war, leading to this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Punitive attacks on enemy held towns and cities
> ... followed by rather a lot of this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Public (exemplary) executions of enemy leaders
> _'pour encourager les autres'_
> ... and then, this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A speedy withdrawal, leaving the locals to cleanup and rebuild as they wish
> 
> Then ...
> 
> ... we need to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A "wall" ~ physical in many places, on what amounts to being on a regional
> basis, separating "them" from "us" until "they" sort themselves out
> 
> ... because this doesn't work:



If we are going to do it right and for all we will need to turn back the clock to the days of "total war".  Make all ISIL held territory look like Berlin or Dresden without the hand wringing of how it got accomplished.  The only way they will understand is if we get down into the mud with them, grapple with them and drown them and all they hold dear in the mud.  Won't happen though, LOAC is all over reaching and will are fixed in position on the moral high ground against an enemy who doesn't give a crap for Queensbury Rules such as in the Pacific 75 years ago.  Paris proves that.

I am sure the ghost of Bomber Harris is screaming why we are not JDAMing their HQ in Raqqa as it's right there for all to see among other places near and dear to them.

One of the attackers was already tagged as a known Islamist extremist.  If they know who they are, then they could start bagging them and making them disappear, for good.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Public Safety Minister on the latest ....


> In Ottawa throughout the weekend, I am in constant contact with my national security officials including the Commissioner of the RCMP and the Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
> 
> The Government of Canada is unwavering in its commitment to protect the safety and security of Canadians, and to defend this nation’s values. We will take all appropriate action to counter terrorist threats to Canada, its citizens, our way of life and our interests around the world.
> 
> Canadian national security and law enforcement partners vigilantly monitor all potential threats and have robust measures in place to address them. Canada’s intelligence, security and police agencies continuously reassess their operations, and review existing security measures in response to a heightened global threat environment.  Our actions seek to ensure both our collective security and our rights and freedoms.
> 
> Canadians can be assured that when the security and intelligence sector receives credible warnings on a specific threat, they work with the appropriate partners to ensure the safety of Canadians. While Canada’s threat level remains unchanged, we are being extra vigilant in Canada as we continue to monitor the situation in Paris very closely.
> 
> Canada works closely with our French partners on counter terrorism issues and we stand ready to assist in this difficult time.
> 
> Canada’s national police force, the RCMP, together with its partners in policing and other first responders across Canada, is well positioned to respond to all known threats. Canadians are encouraged to remain vigilant and to report any unusual or suspicious behaviour to their local police.
> 
> Canada will continue to work with its Allies to fight the scourge of terrorism.
> 
> Canada is fundamentally a safe and peaceful nation. In the days ahead we will continue to take appropriate steps to keep Canadians safe and safeguard Canadian values.


----------



## Stoker

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The Public Safety Minister on the latest ....




France with one of the most robust immigration policies and security services could not prevent an attack. We've been lucky so far.


----------



## Tuan

Haggis said:
			
		

> Two points for you:
> 
> 1.  War, in any form, is not humane.  If you believe we can fight a humane war against _any_ foe, you need to give your head a shake.
> 
> 2. You misunderstand me when I refer to "stomach".  Look back to Gulf War 1.0.  The US-led coalition was well on it's way to Bagdad and would have made it had it not been for the images of kilometers of destroyed Iraqi vehicles lined up on the highway out of Basra.  Those graphic and repeatedly broadcast images were said to have turned US public opinion against the war, resulting in Bush Sr halting the advance on Bagdad.  (One can postulate on how many American and coalition lives could have been saved by finishing off Saddam's regime then rather than later in Gulf War 2.0?).
> 
> The ISIS media arm can and will spin any attack against it for maximum political damage on the attackers at home.  The US media are greedy and will run with the first story they are fed - correct or not - as long as it generates advertising revenue.  They will line up the talking heads to pontificate on what we're doing wrong (because what we're doing right doesn't keep viewers engaged).  This gives ISIS the "even the American media says we're right" international credibility they need to validate their version of events.  Now, we're right back to the conundrum faced by George sr in 1991.  And, I believe that this political fear of adverse public opinion will neuter the western military response in a dramatic way, especially if the actions are launched under a first-term national leader.


What I meant was that if western powers led by the US want to wipe out ISIS, they can do it overnight by napalm the entire terrorist controlled areas. However the west is reluctant to do that not because of the consequences rather it is just inhumane. Having said that, if the terrorists are testing the waters of our toleration, moderation and coexistence; they are surely mistaken!


----------



## PuckChaser

Tuan said:
			
		

> What I meant was that if western powers led by the US want to wipe out ISIS, they can do it overnight by napalm the entire terrorist controlled areas. However the west is reluctant to do that not because of the consequences rather it is just inhumane. Having said that, if the the terrorists are testing the waters of our toleration, moderation and coexistence; they are surely mistaken!


It's called proportionality. You don't win hearts and minds by burning someone's house to the ground after ISIS displaced them. Just because Sri Lanka got away with it, doesn't mean it's right. The thing that separates us from ISIS is following the rule of law and the law of armed conflict. If we don't follow that, our militaries are little more than armed thugs.


----------



## The Bread Guy

What CSIS is telling CTV News (via a reporter's Twitter feed) ....
_"CSIS "... our thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends in Paris and all across France and Europe." .... "The tragic events in France - a peaceable and much admired democracy - are a reminder that terrorism can strike anywhere." .... "In today's global environment, no country is immune."  .... "The threat has never been as direct or immediate, and is compounded by the fact that the nature of the threat is rapidly evolving" .... In wake of #ParisAttacks CSIS tells CTV News "Canadians can be assured we are working very closely with our domestic and intl partners"_


----------



## jollyjacktar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> It's called proportionality. You don't win hearts and minds by burning someone's house to the ground after ISIS displaced them. Just because Sri Lanka got away with it, doesn't mean it's right. The thing that separates us from ISIS is following the rule of law and the law of armed conflict. If we don't follow that, our militaries are little more than armed thugs.



You don't need to win the hearts and minds of those who've been screwed over by ISIS, they're not going to be with them to begin with.  

As for ISIS, you're not going to win over their hearts or what little is in their minds either.  It will be a fight to the death and that is the only thing that will overcome their mind set.


----------



## tomahawk6

Belgian police are conducting raids and arrests have been made.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3318379/Hunt-Isis-killers-Syrian-passport-body-suicide-bomber-Stade-France.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490


----------



## a_majoor

Mark Steyn has knocked it out of the park, as usual:

http://www.steynonline.com/7293/the-barbarians-are-inside-and-there-are-no-gates



> *The Barbarians Are Inside, And There Are No Gates*
> by Mark Steyn
> November 13, 2015
> 
> As I write, Paris is under curfew for the first time since the German occupation, and the death toll from the multiple attacks stands at 158, the vast majority of them slaughtered during a concert at the Bataclan theatre, a delightful bit of 19th century Chinoiserie on the boulevard Voltaire. The last time I was there, if memory serves, was to see Julie Pietri. I'm so bloody sick of these savages shooting and bombing and killing and blowing up everything I like - whether it's the small Quebec town where my little girl's favorite fondue restaurant is or my favorite hotel in Amman or the brave freespeecher who hosted me in Copenhagen ...or a music hall where I liked to go to hear a little jazz and pop and get away from the cares of the world for a couple of hours. But look at the photographs from Paris: there's nowhere to get away from it; the barbarians who yell "Allahu Akbar!" are there waiting for you ...when you go to a soccer match, you go to a concert, you go for a drink on a Friday night. They're there on the train... at the magazine office... in the Kosher supermarket... at the museum in Brussels... outside the barracks in Woolwich...
> 
> Twenty-four hours ago, I said on the radio apropos the latest campus "safe space" nonsense:
> 
> _This is what we're going to be talking about when the mullahs nuke us._
> 
> Almost. When the Allahu Akbar boys opened fire, Paris was talking about the climate-change conference due to start later this month, when the world's leaders will fly in to "solve" a "problem" that doesn't exist rather than to address the one that does. But don't worry: we already have a hashtag (#PrayForParis) and doubtless there'll be another candlelight vigil of weepy tilty-headed wankers. Because as long as we all advertise how sad and sorrowful we are, who needs to do anything?
> 
> With his usual killer comedy timing, the "leader of the free world" told George Stephanopoulos on "Good Morning, America" this very morning that he'd "contained" ISIS and that they're not "gaining strength". A few hours later, a cell whose members claim to have been recruited by ISIS slaughtered over 150 people in the heart of Paris and succeeded in getting two suicide bombers and a third bomb to within a few yards of the French president.
> 
> Visiting the Bataclan, M Hollande declared that "nous allons mener le combat, il sera impitoyable": We are going to wage a war that will be pitiless.
> 
> Does he mean it? Or is he just killing time until Obama and Cameron and Merkel and Justin Trudeau and Malcolm Turnbull fly in and they can all get back to talking about sea levels in the Maldives in the 22nd century? By which time France and Germany and Belgium and Austria and the Netherlands will have been long washed away.
> 
> Among his other coy evasions, President Obama described tonight's events as "an attack not just on Paris, it's an attack not just on the people of France, but this is an attack on all of humanity and the universal values we share".
> 
> But that's not true, is it? He's right that it's an attack not just on Paris or France. What it is is an attack on the west, on the civilization that built the modern world - an attack on one portion of "humanity" by those who claim to speak for another portion of "humanity". And these are not "universal values" but values that spring from a relatively narrow segment of humanity. They were kinda sorta "universal" when the great powers were willing to enforce them around the world and the colonial subjects of ramshackle backwaters such as Aden, Sudan and the North-West Frontier Province were at least obliged to pay lip service to them. But the European empires retreated from the world, and those "universal values" are utterly alien to large parts of the map today.
> 
> And then Europe decided to invite millions of Muslims to settle in their countries. Most of those people don't want to participate actively in bringing about the death of diners and concertgoers and soccer fans, but at a certain level most of them either wish or are indifferent to the death of the societies in which they live - modern, pluralist, western societies and those "universal values" of which Barack Obama bleats. So, if you are either an active ISIS recruit or just a guy who's been fired up by social media, you have a very large comfort zone in which to swim, and which the authorities find almost impossible to penetrate.
> 
> And all Chancellor Merkel and the EU want to do is make that large comfort zone even larger by letting millions more "Syrian" "refugees" walk into the Continent and settle wherever they want. As I wrote after the Copenhagen attacks in February:
> 
> _I would like to ask Mr Cameron and Miss Thorning-Schmidt what's their happy ending here? What's their roadmap for fewer "acts of violence" in the years ahead? Or are they riding on a wing and a prayer that they can manage the situation and hold it down to what cynical British civil servants used to call during the Irish "Troubles" "an acceptable level of violence"? In Pakistan and Nigeria, the citizenry are expected to live with the reality that every so often Boko Haram will kick open the door of the schoolhouse and kidnap your daughters for sex-slavery or the Taliban will gun down your kids and behead their teacher in front of the class. And it's all entirely "random", as President Obama would say, so you just have to put up with it once in a while, and it's tough if it's your kid, but that's just the way it is. If we're being honest here, isn't that all Mr Cameron and Miss Thorning-Schmidt are offering their citizens? Spasms of violence as a routine feature of life, but don't worry, we'll do our best to contain it - and you can help mitigate it by not going to "controversial" art events, or synagogues, or gay bars, or...
> _
> ...or soccer matches, or concerts, or restaurants...
> 
> To repeat what I said a few days ago, I'm Islamed out. I'm tired of Islam 24/7, at Colorado colleges, Marseilles synagogues, Sydney coffee shops, day after day after day. The west cannot win this thing with a schizophrenic strategy of targeting things and people but not targeting the ideology, of intervening ineffectually overseas and not intervening at all when it comes to the remorseless Islamization and self-segregation of large segments of their own countries.
> 
> So I say again: What's the happy ending here? Because if M Hollande isn't prepared to end mass Muslim immigration to France and Europe, then his "pitiless war" isn't serious. And, if they're still willing to tolerate Mutti Merkel's mad plan to reverse Germany's demographic death spiral through fast-track Islamization, then Europeans aren't serious. In the end, the decadence of Merkel, Hollande, Cameron and the rest of the fin de civilisation western leadership will cost you your world and everything you love.
> 
> So screw the candlelight vigil.
> 
> ~I'll be talking about events in Paris on Fox & Friends Saturday morning at around 9am Eastern/6am Pacific.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Remius said:
			
		

> There is no one solution.



Agreed.



> I see chirping about our cf 18 s all over the net.  Our CF18s are not making a difference.  They clearly didn't prevent this.



You'll have to excuse me when I strongly disagree.  You might want to read everything on this page  and then think about the "are not making a difference" comment.  Take a few minutes.  Add up the total number of strikes they've put in and the total number of targets that have been hit.  

Also consider, the CF-18s role/job/task whatever you want to call it, is not to 'win the war from the air on their very own'.  They ARE tasked to operate within, and assist, the coalition forces in halting and degrading ISIS where possible.  THAT task they are doing.

Every single target they've struck has _'made a difference'_; maybe not to you and others sitting safely at home or where ever they are when they make statements such as this.

Each and every single strike on ISIS makes a difference.


----------



## PuckChaser

People twist the statistics and stay on the 0.03% of all strikes are CF-18s. Its not a pure numbers game, the fact that we are there, sharing the load, with whatever we can provide, means something to our allies. They know we have aging aircraft in limited numbers, so that 6-pack means a lot more than the US sending a 6-pack of aircraft.

Every strike is important like EITS said. What if one of our CF-18s is tasked in a sortie to drop a JDAM on a HVT, who happens to be Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi? Do our strikes still mean nothing despite taking out the ISIL leader?


----------



## dapaterson

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> dapaterson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But we need to also remember Nietzsche: "And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
> 
> 
> 
> I've always wondered that this meant.
Click to expand...


My dimestore psychology: Gazing into darkness can bring out darkness within you.

(See also the line immediately preceding that one: He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster.)


----------



## Underway

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> France with one of the most robust immigration policies and security services could not prevent an attack. We've been lucky so far.




France is notoriously horrible at integrating immigrants.  There is a large underclass generational immigrants who are extremely angry with France, the french people and the french federalist schooling system.

Canada's best defence against extremism has been our relatively good integration policy, inclusiveness and quite frankly our irrelevance on the world stage.  By basically being a 4th rate power stuck out in the middle of nowhere geographically we're not really on ISIS radar relative to some of the big powers.  

Here's hoping that this combined with good policing does the trick....


----------



## Eye In The Sky

HOPE is not a valid COA.

hope (noun) a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen.  (verb) want something to happen or be the case.

IMO it is far better to PLAN.


----------



## Kirkhill

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> 3 thoughts
> 
> 1 re ISIL as  a state - Israel is not universally recognized and yet is treated as such
> 
> 2 re terrorism - terrorism is akin to Al Capone in Chicago,  biker wars and mediaeval brigands extorting blackmail  - it is a state of lawlessness that can only be combatted by constant, local, vigorous, and occasionally violent policing.  I feel no sympathy for dandelions.
> 
> 3 re the GoC response - no matter what the youngster decides just imagine how much worse the response would have been if Harper's fascists had been in charge.
> ...



Apparently it is lead balloon time. For those unaware I was and am a supporter of both the Conservatives and Stephen Harper.  DAP had it in one. I am cynical enough to believe that the new government will be able to adopt the  old government's policies and everyone will sleep peacefully in their beds knowing that the world is unfolding as it should because all the oversight positions are back in the hands of the anointed.  The Natural Governing Party is back in charge.

I have already heard worried CBC commentators ask their bespoke talking heads if this means the youngster will have to go back on his word.  The response was on the order of "Well,you have to give him credit for trying."

Even Lawrence Martin is offering up" This changes everything" implying that no one could have foreseen this.  Well, at least one man was seeing this: Stephen Harper


----------



## jmt18325

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Even Lawrence Martin is offering up" This changes everything" implying that no one could have foreseen this.  Well, at least one man was seeing this: Stephen Harper



He talked a good game, but he defunded his own military rebuilding strategy.  He was pretty much all talk.


----------



## MilEME09

With the bringing down of a Russian airliner two weeks ago, and now the Paris attacks, and ISIS claiming this is just the beginning, one wonders how many cells might be in Europe? and how quickly can they strike?


----------



## Edward Campbell

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> With the bringing down of a Russian airliner two weeks ago, and now the Paris attacks, and ISIS claiming this is just the beginning, _one wonders how many cells might be in Europe? and how quickly can they strike?_




Should someone, perhaps Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, be asking the same questions about cells in Canada?

I suspect this fellow can give him some answers (guesses?):

     
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




     Richard Fadden, National Security Advisor to the
     Prime Minister of Canada and an Associate
     Secretary to the Cabinet. Formerly Deputy Minister
     of DND and the Director of CSIS


----------



## Old Sweat

I suspect he already has.

One can only imagine, or rather make an educated guess, of how many (high-priced) people worked late Friday night and through the weekend.


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I've always wondered that this meant.
> 
> 
> My dimestore psychology: Gazing into darkness can bring out darkness within you.
> 
> (See also the line immediately preceding that one: He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster.)


Worst case scenario down this road ....


----------



## Stoker

Underway said:
			
		

> France is notoriously horrible at integrating immigrants.  There is a large underclass generational immigrants who are extremely angry with France, the french people and the french federalist schooling system.
> 
> Canada's best defence against extremism has been our relatively good integration policy, inclusiveness and quite frankly our irrelevance on the world stage.  By basically being a 4th rate power stuck out in the middle of nowhere geographically we're not really on ISIS radar relative to some of the big powers.
> 
> Here's hoping that this combined with good policing does the trick....



It was more about their security screening in immigration. I honestly don't think many refugees will intergrate easily and will be resistance to do so. As being a 4th rate power  There has been direct threats over the years and we should be concerned.

http://globalnews.ca/news/1575601/france-is-has-threatened-coalition-civilians/
http://globalnews.ca/news/1669711/head-of-isis-says-group-will-fight-to-the-last-man-in-new-audio-recording/
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/isis-spokesman-calls-for-more-ottawa-style-attacks-in-canada-warning-what-lies-ahead-will-be-worse


----------



## The Bread Guy

A few updates:

_"After Paris attacks, pressure builds for big military response to Islamic State"_
_"French officials have named the first shooter from the deadly attacks in Paris. He was reportedly identified by a severed finger found at the Bataclan hall ...."_
_"Weapons found in 'getaway car' "_
_"France names first attacker, vows to destroy Islamic State"_
Military patrols are also out continue around the Eiffel Tower -- see attached.


----------



## McG

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Military patrols are also out around the Eiffel Tower -- see attached.


Those three man patrols are not a new response.  They have been going on for years.


----------



## The Bread Guy

MCG said:
			
		

> Those three man patrols are not a new response.  They have been going on for years.


Thanks for that.


----------



## ArmyRick

A really nasty and scary thought. We (the west) could go in, fight a mean fight and eventually wipe out as many ISIS fighters as possible (probably be a lot if we take the gloves off), HOWEVER, what about children they have brainwashed and warped into little anti-west jihadist?

I am thinking back to a BBC docimentary where a guy went behind ISIS lines, was given a tour and interviewed several people. The children were basically put into camps for several weeks and came out saying stuff like "Death to the west...car bombs until sharia is everywhere..etc". These "kids" are obviously a future problem. How in the world do we stop future Islamic militant group even if we wipe out every single known ISIS fighter today?


----------



## Edward Campbell

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> A really nasty and scary thought. We (the west) could go in, fight a mean fight and eventually wipe out as many ISIS fighters as possible (probably be a lot if we take the gloves off), HOWEVER, what about children they have brainwashed and warped into little anti-west jihadist?
> 
> I am thinking back to a BBC docimentary where a guy went behind ISIS lines, was given a tour and interviewed several people. The children were basically put into camps for several weeks and came out saying stuff like "Death to the west...car bombs until sharia is everywhere..etc". These "kids" are obviously a future problem. How in the world do we stop future Islamic militant group even if we wipe out every single known ISIS fighter today?




Many people think that the _Taliban_ (_Talib_ means scholar or student) and _al Qaeda_ were, and IS** is, a direct product of the Saudi funded _Wahhabi _ madrassas (schools) in Pakistan, especially, which were attended by tens of thousands of young boys who learned nothing except one version of the Qu'ran.


----------



## George Wallace

MCG said:
			
		

> Those three man patrols are not a new response.  They have been going on for years.



Since 'Charlie' they can be found in all major cities in France.  I was just in Strasbourg and saw them there.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Mark Steyn has knocked it out of the park, as usual:
> 
> http://www.steynonline.com/7293/the-barbarians-are-inside-and-there-are-no-gates




But, as the _Globe and Mail_'s Eric Reguly reports, from Paris, the European Union leaders reject that notion. He reports that:

    "A top European Union official insisted that the bloc’s refugee policy does not need to be overhauled in the wake of the attacks and urged world leaders not to start treating asylum-seekers as terrorists.

     “Those who organized these attacks, and those who carried them out, are exactly those who the refugees are fleeing,” European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker told reporters at the G-20 summit in Turkey. “There is no need
     to revise the European Union’s entire refugee policy.”

     Poland's incoming government declared Saturday it would not accept refugees without security guarantees but Juncker urged them “to be serious about this, and not to give in (to) these basic reactions.”"


----------



## paffomaybe

A chilling and insightful take on ISIS as, essentially, an apocalyptic death cult... and why one should never underestimate that sort of appeal to the spiritually and societally disenfranchised.  Disturbing implications that wiping them out in a conventional military sense could activate widespread and disparate action.



> In reviewing Mein Kampf in March 1940, George Orwell confessed that he had “never been able to dislike Hitler”; something about the man projected an underdog quality... The Islamic State’s partisans have much the same allure. They believe that they are personally involved in struggles beyond their own lives, and that merely to be swept up in the drama, on the side of righteousness, is a privilege and a pleasure—especially when it is also a burden.



http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/


----------



## The Bread Guy

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> A really nasty and scary thought. We (the west) could go in, fight a mean fight and eventually wipe out as many ISIS fighters as possible (probably be a lot if we take the gloves off), HOWEVER, what about children & unstable/vulnerable/alienated adults they have brainwashed and warped into little anti-west jihadist?


And it's that bit in yellow & orange that's actually _harder_ to fight than those willing to stand up to conventional arms.


----------



## Edward Campbell

sprl said:
			
		

> A chilling and insightful take on ISIS as, essentially, an apocalyptic death cult... and why one should never underestimate that sort of appeal to the spiritually and societally disenfranchised.  Disturbing implications that _wiping them out in a conventional military sense could activate widespread and disparate action_.
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/




And that is precisely why I assert that we, the US led West, should not be involved in "wiping them out," we want, we _need _ other Muslims from the region (North Africa through to South West Asia) to do that. We need an almost pan Islamic civil war to settle, eventually, maybe after 25 or 50 or 100 years, the issues that divide and _motivate_ so many Muslims.


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And it's that bit in yellow & orange that's actually _harder_ to fight than those willing to stand up to conventional arms.



Is it harder to deprogram religious indoctrination than political indoctrination?  We have seen that the Hitler Youth were politically indoctrinated and successfully deprogrammed after the war.  We have seen deprogramming have various degrees of success, mostly success, with various cults.  Will deprogramming of these children be any different?  Time is the factor that many today don't seem to want to accept; wanting a quick solution over a time consuming one.


----------



## tomahawk6

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And that is precisely why I assert that we, the US led West, should not be involved in "wiping them out," we want, we _need _ other Muslims from the region (North Africa through to South West Asia) to do that. We need an almost pan Islamic civil war to settle, eventually, maybe after 25 or 50 or 100 years, the issues that divide and _motivate_ so many Muslims.



If muslims fail to take on IS,then what ?


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Is it harder to deprogram religious indoctrination than political indoctrination?


I'm guessing similar - the RCMP and others (PDF) have been doing work on that front for a while.  That said ....


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Time is the factor that many today don't seem to want to accept; wanting a quick solution over a time consuming one.


.... you're bang on - many people want a switch you can flick to make something go away, not a rock you can carve into whatever you want with sandpaper.


----------



## Haggis

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> If muslims fail to take on IS,then what?



Then, without outside intervention, ISIS becomes the preeminent military force regionally and, eventually, internationally, driven by the world's new politically dominant religion.


----------



## Edward Campbell

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> If muslims fail to take on IS,then what ?




IS** is a Wahhabi/Salafi ~ Sunni ~ _movement_, the Shias cannot help but "take them on."


----------



## Haggis

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> IS** is a Wahhabi/Salafi ~ Sunni ~ _movement_, the Shias cannot help but "take them on."


  So, why have they not done so?


----------



## Kirkhill

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> If we, the US led West (supported by China) are unwilling to do this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boots and tracks on the ground
> ... with several armoured and infantry divisions and, indeed, the whole panoply of modern war, leading to this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Punitive attacks on enemy held towns and cities
> ... followed by rather a lot of this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Public (exemplary) executions of enemy leaders
> _'pour encourager les autres'_
> ... and then, this ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A speedy withdrawal, leaving the locals to cleanup and rebuild as they wish
> 
> Then ...
> 
> ... we need to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A "wall" ~ physical in many places, on what amounts to being on a regional
> basis, separating "them" from "us" until "they" sort themselves out
> 
> ... because this doesn't work:




Boots?  Most definitely.
Tracks?  En masse initially, tapering to penny packets.
Hangings? Judicially and judiciously.

Bugouts? Never.

Walls? Absolutely. But not to contain 2/3 of the planet or even to wall off our continent but walls of Alfred's burghs, walls of Caernarvon, Gaillard and Chevalier ,  and walls such as those built at Ramala's police compound in the 30's. The walls necessary to protect the permanent garrison neceessary to impose our rules.  Ideally the garrisons will be locally staffed but we can only demonstrate the value of our ways, we can only win over the locals, by getting in among them, living with them, working with them, nurturing a new society....and tending to the weeds.

That is the lesson of all empires. Empires are natural and normal.  They exist only as regimes of rules.  They are necessary to manage chaos. The only questions are:  Whose empire? Whose regime? Whose rules?  Who pays?

Those dandelions stll need to be dug out, cut down and doused every weekend  as much as I detest the chore.  There is no escaping it.

Our rules or their rules.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Yes, that's a fourth option.

So we have four choices, so far:

     1. Isolation ~ fairly complete isolation which includes removing the human "safety valve" of emigration;

     2. Boots (and tracks) on the ground ~ lots of killing followed by a hasty, complete withdrawal. Let the locals sort themselves out in their own ways;

     3. Boot and tracks on the ground followed by a reimposition of Western (and Chinese?) colonialism until the (necessary, in my opinion) _enlightenment_ happens; or

     4. The worst possible choice: more of President Obama drawing lines in the sand.


----------



## Loachman

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> 4. The worst possible choice: more of President Obama drawing lines in the sand.



And he has a new playmate, now, on this side of our mutual border.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Haggis said:
			
		

> Then, without outside intervention, ISIS becomes the preeminent military force regionally and, eventually, internationally, driven by the world's new politically dominant religion.



There is, actually one thing the rest of the world can do, and must do at some point in my opinion, even though I think that 'big business" has the ear of too many world leaders and want to protect their profits more than solve some of the world's problems: _Stop selling them friggin ammunition !!!!!_

Do you know how much ammunition the part of the world under isis control produces? None, nada, zero. 

Let them run out of bullets and then see how long they last when they fight by hitting one another over the head with their AK-47's or Machine Guns.

I am just not sure the world is ready to do that, unfortunately.


----------



## Kilo_302

Haggis said:
			
		

> Then, without outside intervention, ISIS becomes the preeminent military force regionally and, eventually, internationally, driven by the world's new politically dominant religion.



Not if the commie hordes get us first! Or we could throw in an alien invasion... :

There are what, 15,000 fighters in ISIS? The sky isn't falling. 

Now IF we were serious about dealing with them, we would cut off the Saudis immediately, and engage with the Iranians and the Russians. The optics of dealing with Assad are not good, but we're pretty adept at doing about faces when it suits our needs. Saddam and Qaddafi could tell you that if they were still alive. The problem is this means accepting ISIS is a greater threat to Western interests than Iran or Russia, undoing our "strategy" in the region of the last 10 years. 

It's tiresome at this point, because the same people pushing for further intervention now are the same people who won't accept the deal with Iran, and who were also supporting action against that country as well. Oh, and we definitely CAN'T deal with Russia because Putin is apparently bent on invading Western Europe again :. I would say we can't have it both ways, but more accurately, we can't have it* every way that works for us in a particular 5 year period*. Our (the West broadly) policy in the region is absolutely incoherent, and we're reaping the blow back from ISIS, just as we did with the Mujahedeen and Al-Qaeda before it. 

There was also a time (around 3 years ago) when the usual suspects were pushing for intervention against Assad. He's awful, just as Putin is, but again this has never stopped us before from dealing with people like them. Assad's Syria is was actually a modern secular nation with guarantees for religious minorities including Christians and Jews. He's done horrific things in the name of fighting extremists (so has his father, remember the Aleppo and Hama Massacres of the early 80s) but who hasn't? The Russians were pitiless in their war with the Chechens, and the US kills more civilians than actual targets with drone strikes. Israel killed over 1000 civilians in its most recent operations in Gaza. The point is, we're being pretty selective when using Assad's crimes as a reason we can't coordinate with him and the Russians in the fight against ISIS.

 When we decided to support "moderate factions" against Assad we actually ended up arming and training ISIS. The Russians are now responding because they (unlike us somehow) seem to understand what happens when a stable government (no matter how distasteful) collapses and ISIS is there to fill the void. Not only did we help the Saudis train and equip ISIS, we threw down the welcome mat by destroying the government/civil society in Libya even though we knew what happens in a vacuum (Iraq).

Realistically, our governments are ok with NOT dealing with ISIS, because the main targets of our policy in the region are Iran, Russia and to a lesser extent, China. ISIS is simply a tool we no longer control, and our refusal to deal with the Russians or Iranians on the matter only underlines how low it is on the priority list.

So either we go to war with everyone, ISIS, Iran, Russia, etc etc, OR we do what we always do when our own meddling gets us into a pickle. We about face. We decide that the Saudis are actually the threat, we publicly announce what we've known for years, that the Saudis have been exporting radical Wahhabism, training and equipping terrorists (and exporting those as well), and we reorient to Iran. 
Of course, then we get into the real reason we can't deal with Iran, which is our relationship with Israel. Israel understands the key to its survival is making that survival a crucial pillar in Western policy in the region. Years of lobbying and funding pro-Israel groups in the US (and Canada to a far lesser extent) have achieved a lot on this front. Actually very commendable from a purely political point of view.

So realistically we can continue "sort of" bombing ISIS, pretending that the Saudis are our allies and are somehow preferable to Iran and Assad's Syria, and maintaining our close ties to Israel as much as that country no longer serves our purposes either. 

Progressives often critique realism in foreign policy as being immoral (or more accurately, amoral) in that human rights, justice and equality will always take a back seat to national interest. But what we've done since 9/11 wouldn't even pass muster as being effective realist policy! At every turn it seems decisions have been made without even a thought for implications beyond the next 12 months. So now we're stuck in this cycle of whack-a-mole, having to deal with every new threat that arises, and creating new ones in the process. 



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> There is, actually one thing the rest of the world can do, and must do at some point in my opinion, even though I think that 'big business" has the ear of too many world leaders and want to protect their profits more than solve some of the world's problems: _Stop selling them friggin ammunition !!!!!_
> 
> Do you know how much ammunition the part of the world under isis control produces? None, nada, zero.
> 
> Let them run out of bullets and then see how long they last when they fight by hitting one another over the head with their AK-47's or Machine Guns.
> 
> I am just not sure the world is ready to do that, unfortunately.



100% agree, and I think that business interests can explain most of what I wrote above. But to take your point to the logical conclusion, the Saudi LAV deal must be reconsidered as well.


----------



## Journeyman

Tuan said:
			
		

> My biggest worry is these attacks were launched by some fake "refugees" and we begin to put limits on genuine ones.


First off, you are to be envied for the sublimely peaceful life you must lead if _that_  is your biggest worry.   :not-again:



Now, some random thoughts:

1. The refugee angle in the Paris attacks is a red herring (or red shawarma, if you prefer). These attacks were well-organized and orchestrated; too well for it to have been the work of someone who's recently worked his way in-country by way of the refugee chain through at least one other country.  So they found one passport linked, however it turns out to be, to a refugee -- much ado about nothing.

2. I'm increasingly seeing the Reformation/30-Years' War analogy as apt. Particularly that this may _be_  their Reformation.  As such: a) it's going to get worse before better, and b) much like the Ottomans _et al _ mucking about on the periphery, the West is only causing more problems than helping. I think it's in our best interest to focus our efforts on helping those who are trying to escape, and containing the threat from our own shores. Wading in with a 'father-knows-best' attitude towards their culture/religion will simply drag us deeper into the cesspool -- even if what they are displaying is abhorrent  ('Christians' did some pretty nasty things to themselves and others in the first-half of the 17th Century too).

3. Following on from #2, if we insist on getting involved, we're going to need a better strategy than we've been using (or not having) so far. While military forces have managed to keep ISIS from a clear-cut victory, our mere presence acts as a catalyst for radicalization. This 'insight' comes from something as simple as raising two boys. They were always scrapping... until some kid came along and threatened one of them, then they were back-to-back against any and all. Yes, I know it's an oversimplification, but our presence is an irritant to many who are not otherwise radicalized.


4. Finally, a pedantic point [yes, I'm back   ]. For those bandying about numbers, Canada has not agreed to take in 25,000 refugees. Canada had previously agreed to take in 10,000 by Sept 2016; we've since committed to an _additional _ 25,000 by 31 Dec 2015 -- we're fast-tracking *35,000 *refugees.1

1. http://www.unhcr.ca/news/unhcr-hails-canadas-pledge-to-take-another-25000-syria-refugees


----------



## Altair

I keep seeing people talking about actions against Saudi Arabia. 

I would be very careful about how one goes about doing that. Saudi Arabia is probably one of the most vulnerable nation states in the region. The only thing keeping that country together is the very generous redistribution of oil money. The Saudi people are among the most socially conservative Islamic countries on the planet, a natural hotbed for extremist and should the Saudi government suddenly face some sort of stress test brought on by sanctions, freezing of assets, running g out of money, that population will turn the country into another syria, and a natural next step for isil.

Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## observor 69

Nope he still hasn't updated his profile.  
Articulate comments such as the above cause great wonder amongst your readers.


----------



## Altair

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Nope he still hasn't updated his profile.
> Articulate comments such as the above cause great wonder amongst your readers.


Nice to know. How about you stop focusing so much on me and perhaps focus on what I say, what you agree with, disagree with, ect. I'm really not that special.


----------



## Kilo_302

Altair said:
			
		

> I keep seeing people talking about actions against Saudi Arabia.
> 
> I would be very careful about how one goes about doing that. Saudi Arabia is probably one of the most vulnerable nation states in the region. The only thing keeping that country together is the very generous redistribution of oil money. The Saudi people are among the most socially conservative Islamic countries on the planet, a natural hotbed for extremist and should the Saudi government suddenly face some sort of stress test brought on by sanctions, freezing of assets, running g out of money, that population will turn the country into another syria, and a natural next step for isil.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for.



If you're referring to my comments, I should clarify that I'm not suggesting any military action against the Saudis, just pointing out the obvious conflict of interests our current policies toward the kingdom represent. Complicated is an understatement.


----------



## Altair

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> If you're referring to my comments, I should clarify that I'm not suggesting any military action against the Saudis, just pointing out the obvious conflict of interests our current policies toward the kingdom represent. Complicated is an understatement.


Any action, whether military, political or economic could destabilize Saudi Arabia greatly. They are truly the next big powder keg and any spark could set them off. 

I'm already nervous watching them flood the market to keep the price of oil low while burning through their monetary reserve while trying to fight a war in Yemen. Should the price of oil not recover and they start dialing back things like no taxes, free education, 16 cent gas,ect, the stability of the country is in question.

Toss in western pressure? Sanctions? Freezing assets? Watch that place go up in flames.


----------



## Kilo_302

Altair said:
			
		

> Any action, whether military, political or economic could destabilize Saudi Arabia greatly. They are truly the next big powder keg and any spark could set them off.
> 
> I'm already nervous watching them flood the market to keep the price of oil low while burning through their monetary reserve while trying to fight a war in Yemen. Should the price of oil not recover and they start dialing back things like no taxes, free education, 16 cent gas,ect, the stability of the country is in question.
> 
> Toss in western pressure? Sanctions? Freezing assets? Watch that place go up in flames.



It sure would. And we've all but guaranteed whatever comes after won't be moderate and secular by favouring radical Islam over more traditional nationalist movements in the region during the Cold War. Like I said, complicated.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Kilo and Altair are both correct, but neither goes far enough.

The whole region, the giant arc stretching from Morocco to Pakistan, is adrift on a stormy sea of religious, social and cultural complexities and 1,300 years old theological disputes.

We have no helpful role there, and I doubt we have a useful one, either.

Unlike OGBD, I do not oppose selling more and more Western, indeed Canadian arms and ammunition ... but, then, I am not offended by this:

     
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




     The eastern part of the destroyed Syrian town of Kobane, also known as Ain al-Arab, on January 30, 2015 (AFP Photo)

          ... because I would like to see a return to this famous image:

               
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




                    ... rather than more and more of this:


----------



## Altair

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Kilo and Altair are both correct, but neither goes far enough.
> 
> The whole region, the giant arc stretching from Morocco to Pakistan, is adrift on a stormy sea of religious, social and cultural complexities and 1,300 years old theological disputes.
> 
> We have no helpful role there, and I doubt we have a useful one, either.
> 
> Unlike OGBD, I do not oppose selling more and more Western, indeed Canadian arms and ammunition ... but, then, I am not offended by this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The eastern part of the destroyed Syrian town of Kobane, also known as Ain al-Arab, on January 30, 2015 (AFP Photo)
> 
> ... because I would like to see a return to this famous image:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... rather than more and more of this:


The more you see 9f the first picture the more you get of the last one.

Unless you have tyrants who fight a no rules battle against extremists, most clashes end up with moderate secular forces being defeated by extremist ones.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Are you suggesting that is an absolute, or your opinion?  (the first part of your post)


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Are you suggesting that is an absolute, or your opinion?  (the first part of your post)


Opinion of course.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I'd be interested if you're able to explain coming to that opinion.  (seriously)  Examples of history, etc.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Altair said:
			
		

> The more you see 9f the first picture the more you get of the last one.
> 
> Unless you have tyrants who fight a no rules battle against extremists, most clashes end up with moderate secular forces being defeated by extremist ones.




The first picture, the bombed out village, is a problem only if _we_, the US led West, do the bombing. I'm suggesting that we should provide the bombs but the actual fighting, _all_ the actual fighting should be done by (relatively) local people ... so should the physical, social, political, cultural/religious and economic "clean up" be a local problem ... we can lend money, but that's about all we should do.


----------



## Altair

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The first picture, the bombed out village, is a problem only if _we_, the US led West, do the bombing. I'm suggesting that we should provide the bombs but the actual fighting, _all_ the actual fighting should be done by (relatively) local people ... so should the physical, social, political, cultural/religious and economic "clean up" be a local problem ... we can lend money, but that's about all we should do.


The first picture is also a problem if the end result is the second picture running away in defeat and the last picture seizing victory. 

As for providing money and arms, well, those 4 or 5 CIA trained moderate rebels for tens of millions of dollars is a really poor investment.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The first picture, the bombed out village, is a problem only if _we_, the US led West, do the bombing. I'm suggesting that we should provide the bombs but the actual fighting, _all_ the actual fighting should be done by (relatively) local people ... so should the physical, social, political, cultural/religious and economic "clean up" be a local problem ... we can lend money, but that's about all we should do.



In terms of this, are you in support of the US led West providing things like ISR air assets to assist, or should Canada pull it's entire ATF out of the region?


----------



## GR66

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Is it harder to deprogram religious indoctrination than political indoctrination?  We have seen that the Hitler Youth were politically indoctrinated and successfully deprogrammed after the war.  We have seen deprogramming have various degrees of success, mostly success, with various cults.  Will deprogramming of these children be any different?  Time is the factor that many today don't seem to want to accept; wanting a quick solution over a time consuming one.



Is this an apples to apples comparison?  Hitler was the leader of the Nazi party...at the end of the war he was dead, his party gone and his army utterly destroyed.  The "faithful" of the Hitler Youth had nothing left to motivate them with every symbol of what they followed gone.  Can you do the same with a religious movement?  You can't "kill" the Prophet.  You can't "erase" a major world-wide religion.  You can't utterly destroy all the faithful.  

Unlike the Nazis, the symbols of radical Islam are not worldly symbols.  As ER Campbell has suggested, only by changing the faith itself through a "reformation" can this movement truly be defeated.


----------



## Tuan

Great article:

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5717157


----------



## Kilo_302

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Kilo and Altair are both correct, but neither goes far enough.
> 
> The whole region, the giant arc stretching from Morocco to Pakistan, is adrift on a stormy sea of religious, social and cultural complexities and 1,300 years old theological disputes.
> 
> We have no helpful role there, and I doubt we have a useful one, either.
> 
> Unlike OGBD, I do not oppose selling more and more Western, indeed Canadian arms and ammunition ... but, then, I am not offended by this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The eastern part of the destroyed Syrian town of Kobane, also known as Ain al-Arab, on January 30, 2015 (AFP Photo)
> 
> ... because I would like to see a return to this famous image:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... rather than more and more of this:



The first picture was made possible largely by Soviet influence in Afghanistan. To us of course, something like the Taliban was preferable, just as long as we headed off Soviet interests. I'm all for assisting in the fight against ISIS, but if we're talking about positive change in the Middle East, one of them has to be our self-interested and short sighted policy. Otherwise we're just guaranteeing further instability in the future.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> In terms of this, are you in support of the US led West providing things like ISR air assets to assist, or should Canada pull it's entire ATF out of the region?




That's far too "fine grained" for me. I'm trying to talk broad, general, _strategic_ choices: get all out, vs. get all in for a short while vs. get all in and stay in (re-colonization). Of course, none of them will happen in any sort of _pure_ sense. We, the whole US led West,  are, without a doubt, going to try to stay "part way in," not too committed, not too engaged, but not "out," either. Canada will try to find the right _niche_ within that.


----------



## Tuan

Breaking: France has begun a major bombardment of Raqqa. Dropping 20 bombs on alleged ISIS targets.


----------



## dapaterson

The alleged "Syrian passport" is now reported to be a forgery.  http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/syrian-passports-found-scene-paris-attacks-fakes-made-turkey-police-520642631


----------



## The Bread Guy

And something else to throw into the mix - usual initial reports caveats apply here, too, with highlights mine:


> Just a half hour before their mosque was set ablaze on Saturday, members of the Kawartha Muslim Religious Association were in the building celebrating the birth of a baby, said the president of the association, Kenzu Abdella.
> 
> Shortly after the party left, a neighbour noticed smoke and called 911.
> 
> The fire was set deliberately around 11 p.m., police confirmed Sunday. Abdella said the group left at 10:30 p.m.
> 
> Police say they don't know the motive, and they don't have a suspect. They couldn't say whether the fire was connected to the attacks in Paris that the Islamic State is taking credit for.
> 
> The Peterborough fire department has pegged damages to the mosque at $80,000, though the building's exterior is relatively unscathed.
> 
> Abdella said the inside of the building is charred black with smoke damage ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

And another Canadian connection - it appears someone PhotoShopped a Canadian Sikh's photo to look like a suicide bomber, and he's taking a bit of heat ....




Stay classy, haters ....


----------



## tomahawk6

How can you co-exist with an ideolgy that is intolerant and is bent on world domination ?Convert or die and in many cases there is post conversion execution.If we lect IS alone to take control of the muslim world including Europe.Thats what this migration invasion  is all about. Right now they would be a large minority but in time they would become the new majority.Sharia law is already being enforced in parts of Europe.Against creeping islamification of the West there is no defense.


----------



## dapaterson

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> How can you co-exist with an ideolgy that is intolerant and is bent on world domination ?



Well, the 49th parallel is a bit of a divide.


----------



## dimsum

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, the 49th parallel is a bit of a divide.



:rofl:


----------



## Kilo_302

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> How can you co-exist with an ideolgy that is intolerant and is bent on world domination ?Convert or die and in many cases there is post conversion execution.If we lect IS alone to take control of the muslim world including Europe.Thats what this migration invasion  is all about. Right now they would be a large minority but in time they would become the new majority.Sharia law is already being enforced in parts of Europe.Against creeping islamification of the West there is no defense.



So you're suggesting that desperate migrants fleeing an active war zone are somehow homogeneously part of a broader Muslim conspiracy? That ISIS represents all Muslims? Racist paranoia.


----------



## a_majoor

GR66 said:
			
		

> Is this an apples to apples comparison?  Hitler was the leader of the Nazi party...at the end of the war he was dead, his party gone and his army utterly destroyed.  The "faithful" of the Hitler Youth had nothing left to motivate them with every symbol of what they followed gone.  Can you do the same with a religious movement?  You can't "kill" the Prophet.  You can't "erase" a major world-wide religion.  You can't utterly destroy all the faithful.
> 
> Unlike the Nazis, the symbols of radical Islam are not worldly symbols.  As ER Campbell has suggested, only by changing the faith itself through a "reformation" can this movement truly be defeated.



Actually you *can* erase a major world wide religion, or at least displace and marginalize them to the point of irrelevance. The Middle East (perhaps ironically) provides plenty of examples; Christianity erased various mystery and pagan religions starting in the first century AD, Islam largely erased Christianity in the area, Bhuddism and Hinduism were driven from the areas we now know as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and so on. And adherents to Nestorian, Cathar, Johnist and other alternative interpretations of Christianity were also largely erased and marginalized in the Middle Ages.

Many secular ideologies have the characteristics of religions, and often times the way secular ideologies and religions are erased works out to be the same: utterly destroy and discredit the leadership, institutions and teachings, so anyone looking to follow this ideology sees that it only leads to ruin and marginalization, _not_ power and success. Since most people prefer to follow paths that lead to power and success, these ideologies wither and fade away (unless some special circumstances arise: see the rebirth of National Socialism in Europe coinciding with expanding power of the EUrocrats, loss of national sovereignty, increasing immigration and gaining strength with the financial crisis and international terrorism of the more recent past).


----------



## Tuan

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> So you're suggesting that desperate migrants fleeing an active war zone are somehow homogeneously part of a broader Muslim conspiracy? That ISIS represents all Muslims? Racist paranoia.



How ISIS benefits from anti-refugee sentiment
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/paris-attacks-why-keystone-was-a-powerful-symbol-and-robot-doctors-1.3316988/how-isis-benefits-from-anti-refugee-sentiment-1.3319618


"When ISIS launches attacks like the one we've just seen in Paris, what are they trying to accomplish? 

I think what ISIS wants to do is provoke a right-wing backlash against refugees and immigrant communities that come from Islamic countries, because that conflict gives credence to their world view that there is a war between the West and Islam. This Islamophobic backlash that we see happening is exactly what they want. They think that this will on the one hand, drive Europeans towards that right-wing point, and on the other hand, drive those communities towards them. 

How would that work? How would a public backlash against refugees and Muslim communities in Europe affect the ability of ISIS to recruit people and gain public support? 

ISIS believes they've set up this Islamic utopia, but all these Muslims are fleeing that Islamic utopia -- so that's kind of embarrassing to them. So they think that by provoking this kind of backlash, maybe it will lead people to sympathize with them more. Because then these people that are being welcomed in Europe will think, well, actually maybe we're not being welcomed in Europe. Maybe ISIS' world view is right, that there is this fundamental difference between our world and the West. 

It's been getting most of the coverage, but Paris was not the only target of a terrorist attack this past week. Forty-three people were killed in Beirut on Thursday, and ISIS is claiming responsibility for that as well. What do you think ISIS was trying to accomplish with the Beirut attack? 

I actually spent a lot of my childhood in Beirut, so this issue is really close to my heart. I think that, basically, ISIS are operating under a similar logic everywhere, but in Beirut the circumstances are a bit different. You have about a million Syrian refugees in Beirut, and things are tense, but there is some kind of coexistence happening. What ISIS wants is to provoke Lebanese civilians...the sectarian warfare in Beirut is also in their interest and furthers their narrative, similar to what happened in Paris.

These attacks are operating under the same kind of logic and they're killing civilians in order to provoke backlash. They're killing civilians in order for communities to start fighting each other... We need to start seeing these as the same. ISIS is operating under the same logic everywhere, and we need solidarity with all of its victims, not some more than others."


----------



## opcougar

It was only a matter of time.....here we go



> A mosque in Peterborough, Canada, was deliberately set on fire this weekend, police said Sunday. While the blaze was quickly contained and no one was injured, the Peterborough Examiner reports, the building, which suffered an estimate $80,000 of damage, is now unusable.




http://gawker.com/police-canada-mosque-deliberately-set-ablaze-1742683260


----------



## George Wallace

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> So you're suggesting that desperate migrants fleeing an active war zone are somehow homogeneously part of a broader Muslim conspiracy? That ISIS represents all Muslims? Racist paranoia.



It is not "Racist paranoia".  First off, Islam is not a race, so forget that.  Second: using the word "Racist" to defend your position really is not a defence.   Forcing Muslims to flee in front of them, IS is indeed creating an Islamic migration.  If you don't believe that, ..... Well, words can not describe my thoughts on that.  Do those Muslims fleeing IS rule mean that IS is spreading its influence into Europe and other regions?  Not necessarily at this moment, anyway.  Is it within the realm of a threat that Islam is going to dominate and become the only religion in the world?   Perhaps.  Overwhelming another population with yours and then through procreation becoming the dominate culture in that population, is an invasion.  Not a violent war, but a slow evolution to overwhelm a previous culture.  As Thucydides just stated in the previous post, you can erase a religion quite easily.  As he says, history has borne that out.  Whole religions have disappeared or been forced out of regions.  Whole cultures have similarly been erased.   If you refuse to accept that this is just such a possibility, you are not accepting the facts as they are transpiring in Europe today.


----------



## George Wallace

opcougar said:
			
		

> It was only a matter of time.....here we go
> 
> 
> http://gawker.com/police-canada-mosque-deliberately-set-ablaze-1742683260



There are idiots everywhere.  Similarly, panic causing a mad stampede happened in Paris today when some fool set off firecrackers near a vigil for the slain.  People panicked at the sound, and Police deployed.    

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319494/United-face-fear-Thousands-turn-Paris-lay-floral-tributes-pay-respects-victims-terror-attacks-country-comes-terms-deadliest-attack-Europe-decade.html


----------



## Kilo_302

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is not "Racist paranoia".  First off, Islam is not a race, so forget that.  Second: using the word "Racist" to defend your position really is not a defence.   Forcing Muslims to flee in front of them, IS is indeed creating an Islamic migration.  If you don't believe that, ..... Well, words can not describe my thoughts on that.  Do those Muslims fleeing IS rule mean that IS is spreading its influence into Europe and other regions?  Not necessarily at this moment, anyway.  Is it within the realm of a threat that Islam is going to dominate and become the only religion in the world?   Perhaps.  Overwhelming another population with yours and then through procreation becoming the dominate culture in that population, is an invasion.  Not a violent war, but a slow evolution to overwhelm a previous culture.  As Thucydides just stated in the previous post, you can erase a religion quite easily.  As he says, history has borne that out.  Whole religions have disappeared or been forced out of regions.  Whole cultures have similarly been erased.   If you refuse to accept that this is just such a possibility, you are not accepting the facts as they are transpiring in Europe today.



Like Tomahawk, you're also suggesting that people fleeing a war zone have more sinister plans. And you're also suggesting that Muslims the world over think the same way, and believe the same things. Racist. This is exactly like saying there's an international Jewish conspiracy. Racist.


----------



## dimsum

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Like Tomahawk, you're also suggesting that people fleeing a war zone have more sinister plans. And you're also suggesting that Muslims the world over think the same way, and believe the same things. Racist. This is exactly like saying there's an international Jewish conspiracy. Racist.



To be pedantic, Islam is not a race - it is a religion.  

There are Arab Muslims, Indonesian Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, African Muslims in many countries, etc.  They are not all of the same race (unless you mean the human race, then there's no point splitting hairs).


----------



## George Wallace

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Like Tomahawk, you're also suggesting that people fleeing a war zone have more sinister plans. And you're also suggesting that Muslims the world over think the same way, and believe the same things. Racist. This is exactly like saying there's an international Jewish conspiracy. Racist.



You throw the word "Racist" around quite freely.  Don't you have a larger vocabulary and perhaps a better defence of you point of view other than to call people "Racist"?  That quite frankly makes you look like a fool.

As for accusing people of suggesting that there is a "more sinister plan" afoot, perhaps you should really read what you are commenting on.  People are pointing out the large numbers of a population that subscribe to a certain religion migrating into the lands of another completely different society.   Such a migration, as pointed out now several times, does have an affect on the population that it is overwhelming.  Are you really going to ignore that fact?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Actually you *can* erase a major world wide religion, or at least displace and marginalize them to the point of irrelevance. The Middle East (perhaps ironically) provides plenty of examples; Christianity erased various mystery and pagan religions starting in the first century AD, Islam largely erased Christianity in the area, Bhuddism and Hinduism were driven from the areas we now know as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and so on. And adherents to Nestorian, Cathar, Johnist and other alternative interpretations of Christianity were also largely erased and marginalized in the Middle Ages.



Great post.  

It's hard not to feel like the world would be a better place without Islam.


----------



## Kilo_302

I am aware that Islam is not a race, and that there are Muslims around the world. This actually proves my point about what Tomahawk and George are saying. There are Muslim nations that have female leaders for example. This is not a homogeneous group by any stretch, and yet they are portrayed as such.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> You throw the word "Racist" around quite freely.  Don't you have a larger vocabulary and perhaps a better defence of you point of view other than to call people "Racist"?  That quite frankly makes you look like a fool.
> 
> As for accusing people of suggesting that there is a "more sinister plan" afoot, perhaps you should really read what you are commenting on.  People are pointing out the large numbers of a population that subscribe to a certain religion migrating into the lands of another completely different society.   Such a migration, as pointed out now several times, does have an affect on the population that it is overwhelming.  Are you really going to ignore that fact?



Of course increased immigration will change demographics, what's your point? It's a bit precious that Europe who sent immigrants around the world where they were most certainly not welcome (the whole imperial thing), is now in a panic at refugees fleeing a conflict that much of Europe is actively or indirectly involved in. Anyone bombing Syria has a responsibility to deal with the refugees leaving, it's that simple. Anyone who is or has provided weaponry, ditto. 

Why are Syrian refugees fleeing Syria? 

#1, ISIS: A group one of our closest allies in the region armed and trained with our complicity as a bulwark against our bigger enemy, Iran. We had a hand in the creation of ISIS. We also created conditions in which they would thrive by creating a vacuum in Iraq and Libya.

#2, War: War is destructive. Our bombs are destroying infrastructure to deprive ISIS but it has the same effect on people living in those areas. Our refusal to engage with Assad/Russia/IRan also means ISIS has been able to advance more than it otherwise would have. No one wants their family to live in an active war zone, so they're fleeing to Europe. 

We the West have a large hand in the drivers forcing these people out. If we don't do what we can to help those that are merely trying to ensure their families survival, we're not much better than the Russians. Or the Syrian government for that matter.


----------



## a_majoor

George, I think you need to play this card:


----------



## Tuan

Thucydides said:
			
		

> George, I think you need to play this card:



Perhaps instead of  saying "racist" Kilo should have said "xenophobic" but he/she has a point  :2c:


----------



## jollyjacktar

France reaches out and dick punches these assholes.  Keep hitting Raqqa.   

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319696/French-fighter-jets-carry-massive-airstrike-operation-ISIS-stronghold-city-Raqqa-Syria.html


----------



## George Wallace

Tuan said:
			
		

> Perhaps instead of  saying "racist" Kilo should have said "xenophobic" but he/she has a point  :2c:



As does tomahawk6.


----------



## opcougar

You left out Russian, Bosnian and North American Muslims i.e. people born and bred in these countries and practice Islam. You are right about religion NOT being a race, and it's amazing to see some people refer to it as that.



			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> To be pedantic, Islam is not a race - it is a religion.
> 
> There are Arab Muslims, Indonesian Muslims, Pakistani Muslims, African Muslims in many countries, etc.  They are not all of the same race (unless you mean the human race, then there's no point splitting hairs).


----------



## GR66

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Actually you *can* erase a major world wide religion, or at least displace and marginalize them to the point of irrelevance. The Middle East (perhaps ironically) provides plenty of examples; Christianity erased various mystery and pagan religions starting in the first century AD, Islam largely erased Christianity in the area, Bhuddism and Hinduism were driven from the areas we now know as Pakistan and Afghanistan, and so on. And adherents to Nestorian, Cathar, Johnist and other alternative interpretations of Christianity were also largely erased and marginalized in the Middle Ages.
> 
> Many secular ideologies have the characteristics of religions, and often times the way secular ideologies and religions are erased works out to be the same: utterly destroy and discredit the leadership, institutions and teachings, so anyone looking to follow this ideology sees that it only leads to ruin and marginalization, _not_ power and success. Since most people prefer to follow paths that lead to power and success, these ideologies wither and fade away (unless some special circumstances arise: see the rebirth of National Socialism in Europe coinciding with expanding power of the EUrocrats, loss of national sovereignty, increasing immigration and gaining strength with the financial crisis and international terrorism of the more recent past).



That's not the same thing as National Socialism being crushed in a 6 year war and the fundamental underlying ideology being suppressed by an occupation force within a generation.  Given enough time and "events" Christianity, Islam, Bhuddism, etc.  may eventually fade from history, but I don't for a minute think that a crushing military defeat of Islamist forces in Syria followed by a Western Occupation and a new Marshall Plan will wipe radical Islam off the face of the Earth.


----------



## Tuan

Words matter in ‘ISIS’ war, so use ‘Daesh’
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/09/words-matter-isis-war-use-daesh/V85GYEuasEEJgrUun0dMUP/story.html?event=event25



> THE MILITANTS who are killing civilians, raping and forcing captured women into sexual slavery, and beheading foreigners in Iraq and Syria are known by several names: the Islamic State in Iraq and al-Sham, or ISIS; the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL; and, more recently, the Islamic State, or IS. French officials recently declared that that country would stop using any of those names and instead refer to the group as “Daesh.”
> 
> The Obama Administration should switch to this nomenclature, too, because how we talk about this group is central to defeating them.


----------



## tomahawk6

The most wanted man in Europe right now is Saleh Abdelslam.He and two others were stopped near the Belgian border and after questioning they were released.Hunt continues.

http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-fugitive-slipped-police-232145227.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Institute for the Study of War has assembled a bit of a network chart of folks involved in the attack here - more detail here.


----------



## opcougar

@Tuan..you alluded to this in your post above.

This is interesting and I guess you can say the people have a point



> Facebook accused of ‘selectively sympathizing’ with Paris over Beirut



http://english.alarabiya.net/en/media/digital/2015/11/16/Facebook-accused-of-selectively-sympathizing-with-Paris-over-Beirut.html


----------



## jollyjacktar

So sad but true.  We don't have the balls.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/paris-attacks-only-2-equally-bad-options-for-taking-on-isis-1.3320226


----------



## Edward Campbell

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> I am aware that Islam is not a race, and that there are Muslims around the world. This actually proves my point about what Tomahawk and George are saying. There are Muslim nations that have female leaders for example. This is not a homogeneous group by any stretch, and yet they are portrayed as such.
> 
> Of course increased immigration will change demographics, what's your point? It's a bit precious that Europe who sent immigrants around the world where they were most certainly not welcome (the whole imperial thing), is now in a panic at refugees fleeing a conflict that much of Europe is actively or indirectly involved in. Anyone bombing Syria has a responsibility to deal with the refugees leaving, it's that simple. Anyone who is or has provided weaponry, ditto.
> 
> Why are Syrian refugees fleeing Syria?
> 
> #1, ISIS: A group one of our closest allies in the region armed and trained with our complicity as a bulwark against our bigger enemy, Iran. We had a hand in the creation of ISIS. We also created conditions in which they would thrive by creating a vacuum in Iraq and Libya.
> 
> #2, War: War is destructive. Our bombs are destroying infrastructure to deprive ISIS but it has the same effect on people living in those areas. Our refusal to engage with Assad/Russia/IRan also means ISIS has been able to advance more than it otherwise would have. No one wants their family to live in an active war zone, so they're fleeing to Europe.
> 
> _We the West have a large hand in the drivers forcing these people out. If we don't do what we can to help those that are merely trying to ensure their families survival, we're not much better than the Russians. Or the Syrian government for that matter._




You are 100% correct. You and I may disagree on _how_ to help and on _how much_ we can, _usefully_ help, but, in the main, we agree.


----------



## tomahawk6

The spotlight is on Belgium as a base for jihadists.

http://news.yahoo.com/insight-guns-god-grievances-belgiums-islamist-airbase-052823562.html

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - "A breeding ground for violence" the mayor of Molenbeek called her borough on Sunday, speaking of unemployment and overcrowding among Arab immigrant families, of youthful despair finding refuge in radical Islam

AND the terror mastermind of the Paris attacks has been named.A Belgian based terrorist.

http://news.yahoo.com/belgian-jihadi-idd-mastermind-paris-attacks-114507010.html


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> So you're suggesting that desperate migrants fleeing an active war zone are somehow homogeneously part of a broader Muslim conspiracy? That ISIS represents all Muslims? Racist paranoia.



OMG... this conversation line is why I am beginning to hate social media....

1. RIGHT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents the minority SUNNI populations of Syria and Iraq (and nominally all of the Sunni arab population). It is not "muslims" but a portion of a portion of muslims living in a specific corner of the earth. This is why Iran, for example, is not a supporter of ISIS. Therein, the shia, allawite, christian, and yazzadi (and LGBTQ, educated, moderate islam, etc) are completely warranted to want to get out of the area- they are the as much the targets of ISIS as we are, if not more so. Using widesweeping terminology such as "islam" to describe a sect makes you look uneducated and xenophobic. Attempting to bring in 25,000 new persons to escape a war is really not a big deal (we are a country of 31-33 million after all) and is quite literally the least we can do. If you are so H and H to go bomb things than you should be at least somewhat willing to help a pittance of the people that are affected. 

2. LEFT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents a group that has proven that it is perfectly capable of committing attacks against western targets and is more than willing to do so to advance it's goal of the establishment of a sunni muslim caliphate. Their main tactic is terrorism (or 4GW if we want to get into it). They use terrorism as they cannot establish a strong enough military force to fight the west in a contiguous, linear fashion. As a purveyor of terror as a political weapon, aimed to erode our will to assist arab governments that they want to overthrow it is perfectly rational that they may attempt to put a small number of terrorists or ISIS sympathizers in the group heading into Canada. The people placed could be men or women, or perhaps even children who have been brainwashed with a religious philosophy. Perhaps the people coming would want to attack us themselves, or perhaps they would be used to recruit Canadians into ISIS and act as technical SMEs. Who knows? Also, remember that "Syria" is a "fake" country that is a collection of religious sects that have been warring for generations and that only 5 years ago Syria was calling for the destruction of Israel. The point is that there is a real threat and that we, as Canadians, have a responsibility to ensure to the greatest extent possible that we protect our population for threats. Therein, is it not reasonable that there be a compromise and that we vet the people coming into Canada to the best extent we can to minimize potential direct or indirect threats to Canadian citizens? Wouldn't extending the timeline to look at establishing a vetting process, IAW what terrorism and immigration experts are saying, be a reasonable trade off for helping the Syrians and ensuring that we protect our own? Also, calling anyone who has concerns xenophobic or racist retracts from your argument and makes you look pretentious.


As per normal, some political compromise is what is called for. Unfortunately what social media gives us is zealots from two totally different ends of a political spectrum screaming at each other with megaphones hoping that they can yell the loudest.


----------



## George Wallace

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> OMG... this conversation line is why I am beginning to hate social media....
> 
> 1. RIGHT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents the minority SUNNI populations of Syria and Iraq (and nominally all of the Sunni arab population). It is not "muslims" but a portion of a portion of muslims living in a specific corner of the earth. This is why Iran, for example, is not a supporter of ISIS. Therein, the shia, allawite, christian, and yazzadi (and LGBTQ, educated, moderate islam, etc) are completely warranted to want to get out of the area- they are the as much the targets of ISIS as we are, if not more so. Using widesweeping terminology such as "islam" to describe a sect makes you look uneducated and xenophobic. Attempting to bring in 25,000 new persons to escape a war is really not a big deal (we are a country of 31-33 million after all) and is quite literally the least we can do. If you are so H and H to go bomb things than you should be at least somewhat willing to help a pittance of the people that are affected.
> 
> 2. LEFT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents a group that has proven that it is perfectly capable of committing attacks against western targets and is more than willing to do so to advance it's goal of the establishment of a sunni muslim caliphate. Their main tactic is terrorism (or 4GW if we want to get into it). They use terrorism as they cannot establish a strong enough military force to fight the west in a contiguous, linear fashion. As a purveyor of terror as a political weapon, aimed to erode our will to assist arab governments that they want to overthrow it is perfectly rational that they may attempt to put a small number of terrorists or ISIS sympathizers in the group heading into Canada. The people placed could be men or women, or perhaps even children who have been brainwashed with a religious philosophy. Perhaps the people coming would want to attack us themselves, or perhaps they would be used to recruit Canadians into ISIS and act as technical SMEs. Who knows? Also, remember that "Syria" is a "fake" country that is a collection of religious sects that have been warring for generations and that only 5 years ago Syria was calling for the destruction of Israel. The point is that there is a real threat and that we, as Canadians, have a responsibility to ensure to the greatest extent possible that we protect our population for threats. Therein, is it not reasonable that there be a compromise and that we vet the people coming into Canada to the best extent we can to minimize potential direct or indirect threats to Canadian citizens? Wouldn't extending the timeline to look at establishing a vetting process, IAW what terrorism and immigration experts are saying, be a reasonable trade off for helping the Syrians and ensuring that we protect our own? Also, calling anyone who has concerns xenophobic or racist retracts from your argument and makes you look pretentious.
> 
> 
> As per normal, some political compromise is what is called for. Unfortunately what social media gives us is zealots from two totally different ends of a political spectrum screaming at each other with megaphones hoping that they can yell the loudest.



 :goodpost:

At the same time, although our Government has changed, the people (Public Servants) who are already in the chain to process refugees have not.  The process of vetting refugees started in the past by the Conservative Government should not have halted mid-stream due to the election, but still be processing according to our standards.  That process should not be seriously affected.  The throwing open of our doors to a mass influx of refugees in the next thirty +/- days is sheer madness.  I hope that if the numbers are to be drastically increased or sped up, that will be those who are already in the process and already being vetted who would be accepted.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I think you mean "sheer madness", George. Unless you actually want to shear someone or something  :dunno:


----------



## George Wallace

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I think you mean "sheer madness", George. Unless you actually want to shear someone or something  :dunno:



Thanks...  :nod: ...Not enough coffee.   ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> As per normal, some political compromise is what is called for. Unfortunately what social media gives us is zealots from two totally different ends of a political spectrum screaming at each other with megaphones hoping that they can yell the loudest.



And, of course, Neil nails the real problem.... the West are all wimps in the eyes of the zealots:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/paris-attacks-only-2-equally-bad-options-for-taking-on-isis-1.3320226


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm more interested in the government publishing the amount of people that don't pass the security checks, why they didn't and what the government did with them after the fact.

Those numbers would likely be pretty revealing also and I think Canadians have a right to know them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And, of course, Neil nails the real problem.... the West are all wimps in the eyes of the zealots:
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/paris-attacks-only-2-equally-bad-options-for-taking-on-isis-1.3320226



Mr Macdonald says: "But disengaging and letting the Middle East sort itself out would involve a hideous price for the populations on the ground."

That may be so, however, if we did completely disengage and the slaughter ensued, my conscience would be clear, especially if the Sauds, Jordan, the Emirates, etc stayed disengaged the way they currently are doing.

This is their backyard, it's up to them to clean it up. Not us.


----------



## suffolkowner

Recce I can agree with both your above points but I just don't see this staying a middle eastern/arab/muslim problem. I too would love to know how one vets a refugee. A person who by definition is likely to have lost any ability to prove their identity. I certainly doubt the quality of the people doing the vetting as well as I have too many experiences with their ilk.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I do wonder, however, if DAESH are a death cult trying to bring about the Apocalypse as some surmise.  Will they keep poking the various Bears that own nukes until one of them finally snaps and goes postal, thus kicking it all off?


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Recce I can agree with both your above points but I just don't see this staying a middle eastern/arab/muslim problem. I too would love to know how one vets a refugee. A person who by definition is likely to have lost any ability to prove their identity. I certainly doubt the quality of the people doing the vetting as well as I have too many experiences with their ilk.



Well, I would suggest that we have processes for vetting refugees into Canada now, so we ought to maintain the same standards. i would also be surprised if the vast majority of the people didn't have identification of some sorts on their person. If someone is hiding amongst the refugees that wants to do ill against us than there is a possibility that they will still get in. However, running finger prints through databases, pictures, etc will assist in sorting some of this out I would imagine.

As mentioned earlier- finger printing, taking photo's and doing staff checks on the pers were bringing in will be an inconvenience to the refugees. We could assist them in the meantime by estblishing "forward assembly areas" if you will or something to that effect in Europe under Canadian control and bring them into Canada on a reasonable yet expedited timeline. This would also provide time to establish better networks in Canada for these folks than what we can offer now (and unfortunately time to sell the plan to our own population- there was just a mosque burnt down in Peterborough after all).


----------



## Tuan

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> OMG... this conversation line is why I am beginning to hate social media....
> 
> 1. RIGHT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents the minority SUNNI populations of Syria and Iraq (and nominally all of the Sunni arab population). It is not "muslims" but a portion of a portion of muslims living in a specific corner of the earth. This is why Iran, for example, is not a supporter of ISIS. Therein, the shia, allawite, christian, and yazzadi (and LGBTQ, educated, moderate islam, etc) are completely warranted to want to get out of the area- they are the as much the targets of ISIS as we are, if not more so. Using widesweeping terminology such as "islam" to describe a sect makes you look uneducated and xenophobic. Attempting to bring in 25,000 new persons to escape a war is really not a big deal (we are a country of 31-33 million after all) and is quite literally the least we can do. If you are so H and H to go bomb things than you should be at least somewhat willing to help a pittance of the people that are affected.
> 
> 2. LEFT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents a group that has proven that it is perfectly capable of committing attacks against western targets and is more than willing to do so to advance it's goal of the establishment of a sunni muslim caliphate. Their main tactic is terrorism (or 4GW if we want to get into it). They use terrorism as they cannot establish a strong enough military force to fight the west in a contiguous, linear fashion. As a purveyor of terror as a political weapon, aimed to erode our will to assist arab governments that they want to overthrow it is perfectly rational that they may attempt to put a small number of terrorists or ISIS sympathizers in the group heading into Canada. The people placed could be men or women, or perhaps even children who have been brainwashed with a religious philosophy. Perhaps the people coming would want to attack us themselves, or perhaps they would be used to recruit Canadians into ISIS and act as technical SMEs. Who knows? Also, remember that "Syria" is a "fake" country that is a collection of religious sects that have been warring for generations and that only 5 years ago Syria was calling for the destruction of Israel. The point is that there is a real threat and that we, as Canadians, have a responsibility to ensure to the greatest extent possible that we protect our population for threats. Therein, is it not reasonable that there be a compromise and that we vet the people coming into Canada to the best extent we can to minimize potential direct or indirect threats to Canadian citizens? Wouldn't extending the timeline to look at establishing a vetting process, IAW what terrorism and immigration experts are saying, be a reasonable trade off for helping the Syrians and ensuring that we protect our own? Also, calling anyone who has concerns xenophobic or racist retracts from your argument and makes you look pretentious.
> 
> 
> As per normal, some political compromise is what is called for. Unfortunately what social media gives us is zealots from two totally different ends of a political spectrum screaming at each other with megaphones hoping that they can yell the loudest.



While I agree with your point of view of both political spectrums, I would like to state a fact as I see it. Terrorists/insurgents are like fish in an ocean of people. As such, when you try to separate the ocean of population from the terrorist fish; they are threaten. How? You don’t have to take my word for it since attacks in Paris have already prompted calls for Western countries to reconsider accepting refugees from Iraq and Syria. But Syrian-American political researcher Nader Atassi argues that backlash will only make it easier for ISIS to gain supporters. 

Point is our anti-refugee sentiment is exactly what ISIS is hoping for!

X-POST


> *When ISIS launches attacks like the one we've just seen in Paris, what are they trying to accomplish?*
> 
> I think what ISIS wants to do is provoke a right-wing backlash against refugees and immigrant communities that come from Islamic countries, because that conflict gives credence to their world view that there is a war between the West and Islam. This Islamophobic backlash that we see happening is exactly what they want. They think that this will on the one hand, drive Europeans towards that right-wing point, and on the other hand, drive those communities towards them.
> 
> *How would that work? How would a public backlash against refugees and Muslim communities in Europe affect the ability of ISIS to recruit people and gain public support?*
> 
> ISIS believes they've set up this Islamic utopia, but all these Muslims are fleeing that Islamic utopia -- so that's kind of embarrassing to them. So they think that by provoking this kind of backlash, maybe it will lead people to sympathize with them more. Because then these people that are being welcomed in Europe will think, well, actually maybe we're not being welcomed in Europe. Maybe ISIS' world view is right, that there is this fundamental difference between our world and the West.
> 
> *It's been getting most of the coverage, but Paris was not the only target of a terrorist attack this past week. Forty-three people were killed in Beirut on Thursday, and ISIS is claiming responsibility for that as well. What do you think ISIS was trying to accomplish with the Beirut attack? *
> 
> I actually spent a lot of my childhood in Beirut, so this issue is really close to my heart. I think that, basically, ISIS are operating under a similar logic everywhere, but in Beirut the circumstances are a bit different. You have about a million Syrian refugees in Beirut, and things are tense, but there is some kind of coexistence happening. What ISIS wants is to provoke Lebanese civilians...the sectarian warfare in Beirut is also in their interest and furthers their narrative, similar to what happened in Paris.
> 
> These attacks are operating under the same kind of logic and they're killing civilians in order to provoke backlash. They're killing civilians in order for communities to start fighting each other... We need to start seeing these as the same. ISIS is operating under the same logic everywhere, and we need solidarity with all of its victims, not some more than others.


http://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/paris-attacks-why-keystone-was-a-powerful-symbol-and-robot-doctors-1.3316988/how-isis-benefits-from-anti-refugee-sentiment-1.3319618


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> This would also provide time to establish better networks in Canada for these folks than what we can offer now (and unfortunately time to sell the plan to our own population- there was just a mosque burnt down in Peterborough after all).



I'm not jumping on the Peterborough mosque bandwagon just yet. It's not like it's the first time arson may have happened from property owners for various reasons.

And I'm not saying this is the case here, but I'll wait and see what shakes out first.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Tuan said:
			
		

> While I agree with your point of view of both political spectrums, I would like to state a fact as I see it. Terrorists/insurgents are like a fish in an ocean of people. As such, when you try to separate the ocean of population from the terrorist fish; they are threaten. How? You don’t have to take my word for it since attacks in Paris have already prompted calls for Western countries to reconsider accepting refugees from Iraq and Syria. But Syrian-American political researcher Nader Atassi argues that backlash will only make it easier for ISIS to gain supporters.
> 
> Point is our anti-refugee sentiment is exactly what ISIS is hoping for!
> 
> X-POSThttp://www.cbc.ca/radio/the180/paris-attacks-why-keystone-was-a-powerful-symbol-and-robot-doctors-1.3316988/how-isis-benefits-from-anti-refugee-sentiment-1.3319618



When was there any statement that we should adopt anti-refugee policies? The point was that the political right wants security and the left wants humanity... there's a middle ground to be had that meets both ends. Saying things short of "bring them all in now!" isn't anti-refugee...

On a side note- I thought one of the new governments principles was compromise and "real change" in parliament through the engagements of all parliamentarians? What I see today is decisions (pull CF-18s out, accept refugees, etc) made outside of parliament without allowance for debate. Where's the "real change"?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> .... what social media gives us is zealots from two totally different ends of a political spectrum screaming at each other with megaphones hoping that they can yell the loudest.


#nonuance  >

Seriously, well summed up BG45.


----------



## Tuan

> "She suddenly turned around and saw me waiting and said, ‘Oh, my God. I’m sorry. Please don’t blow me up."



Fear and hatred in a grocery store: How not to treat Muslims after the Paris attacks - Globe and Mail



> Shenaz Kermalli is a freelance journalist based in Toronto.
> 
> My younger sister just experienced her first brush with anti-Muslim backlash in Mississauga. Fatema, like me, was born and raised in Toronto and wears hijab.
> 
> “I was at Loblaws in the produce section and patiently waiting for a lady to move her cart so I could get some green pepper,” Fatema wrote about the incident on Facebook.
> 
> “She suddenly turned around and saw me waiting and said, ‘Oh, my God. I’m sorry. Please don’t blow me up,’ and then quickly moved away from me. Seriously?! ‪#‎neverthoughtthiscouldhappenincanada.”
> 
> My sister was flabbergasted. Later, when checking out, she realized no one was behind her in the checkout line. “I looked at all the other lines.…They each had a long line with five to six people waiting. I was next to pay and no one was behind me, but they were all staring at me.”
> 
> This was a minor incident with no real ramifications. Nor is racism something we, all Canadian visible ethnic minorities, haven’t experienced at some point in our lives. But in Mississauga?
> 
> The most diverse city in the province – and where a Muslim Arab MP had just been elected?
> 
> Are there people out there who really believe the random Muslim woman in hijab standing in front of them at the checkout line at their local grocery store could be hiding a bomb?
> 
> 
> Apparently so.
> 
> My sister’s Facebook post received a flood of sympathetic responses from non-Muslims and Muslims, some of whom said they had experienced similar encounters. Which makes me wonder – and fear – for the Muslims who live in less diverse areas of Canada. If this kind mentality exists in Mississauga, how much worse will it be for those living in Parry Sound or Winnipeg?
> 
> A mosque in Peterborough has already been set alight by suspected arsonists late on Saturday night. No one was injured but about 70 families were inside just half an hour before, celebrating the birth of a couple’s baby.
> 
> And then there’s the Toronto couple who put a sign on their lawn asking Muslims if they were sorry for the attacks in Paris.
> 
> Here’s a response for them – I am not apologizing for the attacks in Paris. I had nothing to do with them.
> 
> But I am utterly disgusted at the terrorists responsible and deeply despair for all the innocent lives lost. Yes, France is launching airstrikes inside Syria that are indiscriminately killing innocent civilians.
> 
> Yes, Western foreign policy continues to be a driving factor towards the bloody, chaotic mess the Middle East lies in today.
> 
> But the Islamic State needs to hear this loud and clear: No country’s actions are worse than yours. What you choose to carry out is infinitely more reprehensible – because whenever you do something horrific you have the audacity to invoke God’s name first.
> 
> The only comfort Muslims in Canada can take is knowing that no one will face God’s wrath more than hypocrites – and that’s a promise coming from the one book and God that ISIS claims to follow.
> 
> The fear of all Muslims is unnecessary and cruel – in our grocery stores, in our neighbourhoods.
> 
> We are all mourning, we are all angry.  And as long as we are all united, ISIS will never win.


----------



## Remius

Would this be an appropriate response?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/france-seeks-united-u-s-russia-assault-on-islamic-state-militants-1.2659208

I think so, but only if it swift, massive and unrelenting.  But the article poinst out that the US and Russia would have to put aside their differences to make it happen.  Maybe, just maybe there might be enough sympathy amongst allies and alike to see something like this happen.


----------



## Kirkhill

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Yes, that's a fourth option.
> 
> So we have four choices, so far:
> 
> 1. Isolation ~ fairly complete isolation which includes removing the human "safety valve" of emigration;
> 
> 2. Boots (and tracks) on the ground ~ lots of killing followed by a hasty, complete withdrawal. Let the locals sort themselves out in their own ways;
> 
> 3. Boot and tracks on the ground followed by a reimposition of Western (and Chinese?) colonialism until the (necessary, in my opinion) _enlightenment_ happens; or
> 
> 4. The worst possible choice: more of President Obama drawing lines in the sand.



I wanted to get back to this one but my computer is in the shop and was working from my phone..   

Anyway -  

I am with Option 3.  Especially with China on board. (You have swung me on this one ERC).

I am convinced that there is a profitable conversation to be had there between the West (writ large and including the EU and the Anglosphere) and China.  The examples that give me comfort that Confucius and Mammon can co-exist include Singapore, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Mongolia, every Chinatown in the West and every western shopping mall in the East.

BUT if we are going to get back into the colonialism game it has to be under the auspices of something supra-national.  We will need an organization that is widely, not necessarily universally supported, to hoist a flag over the endeavour.  Maybe something like this?







But with Chinese Rules of Engagement.

No fan of the UN I, but if it didn't exist it would have to be created, and it radically needs reform.  The best hope is of separating Russia and China at the Security Council to eliminate the Veto.

Maybe the youngster is the opportunity for a wedge?


----------



## Kirkhill

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And, of course, Neil nails the real problem.... the West are all wimps in the eyes of the zealots:
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/paris-attacks-only-2-equally-bad-options-for-taking-on-isis-1.3320226



What price Humanity to leave Saddam, Assad, Ghaddafi et al in power?  

GWB did not build Abu Ghraib, nor outfit it with meat hooks, and meat grinders and cattle prods.  Nor did he use gases on Kurds and Shia.

Beyond the usual bilious reaction I get to Neil he is right on the lack of Western stomach.... but there are more than two options, and he intimates the third.  Send in the Legions - and stay there.


----------



## Old Sweat

To explore another track, it appears that one of the attackers entered Europe in early October using a forged Syrian passport. So what? Well, how was he able to link up with the ISIS factions in Paris? Brussels? without being suspected of being an infiltrator and what orders, if any, did he convey? He might have done this early enough for the detailed planning to take place and for him to have been integrated into one of the teams, and/or he carried the order to execute the operation on the time and date in question.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> To explore another track, it appears that one of the attackers entered Europe in early October using a forged Syrian passport. So what? Well, how was he able to link up with the ISIS factions in Paris? Brussels? without being suspected of being an infiltrator and what orders, if any, did he convey? He might have done this early enough for the detailed planning to take place and for him to have been integrated into one of the teams, and/or he carried the order to execute the operation on the time and date in question.




There's a media piece "trending" on the Internet right now which suggests that IS** is just taking credit for what are, actually, just random attacks. The TV host says that they are, by and large, IS** _inspired_ but they, all these attacks, are neither organized nor coordinated by IS**. Young, disaffected men are encouraged, by Internet propaganda, to "strike out" at the Western, host society and then IS** takes the credit.  :dunno:


----------



## opcougar

Beginning to hate you say? Another reason am glad I never became part of it in the first place, and it looks like am not missing much.

Side Note: If France knew of the ISIS weapon depot and camps as claimed after their planes "bombed these sites", why didn't they do it before the Paris attacks?



			
				Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> *OMG... this conversation line is why I am beginning to hate social media....*
> 
> 1. RIGHT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents the minority SUNNI populations of Syria and Iraq (and nominally all of the Sunni arab population). It is not "muslims" but a portion of a portion of muslims living in a specific corner of the earth. This is why Iran, for example, is not a supporter of ISIS. Therein, the shia, allawite, christian, and yazzadi (and LGBTQ, educated, moderate islam, etc) are completely warranted to want to get out of the area- they are the as much the targets of ISIS as we are, if not more so. Using widesweeping terminology such as "islam" to describe a sect makes you look uneducated and xenophobic. Attempting to bring in 25,000 new persons to escape a war is really not a big deal (we are a country of 31-33 million after all) and is quite literally the least we can do. If you are so H and H to go bomb things than you should be at least somewhat willing to help a pittance of the people that are affected.
> 
> 2. LEFT WING PEOPLE- ISIS represents a group that has proven that it is perfectly capable of committing attacks against western targets and is more than willing to do so to advance it's goal of the establishment of a sunni muslim caliphate. Their main tactic is terrorism (or 4GW if we want to get into it). They use terrorism as they cannot establish a strong enough military force to fight the west in a contiguous, linear fashion. As a purveyor of terror as a political weapon, aimed to erode our will to assist arab governments that they want to overthrow it is perfectly rational that they may attempt to put a small number of terrorists or ISIS sympathizers in the group heading into Canada. The people placed could be men or women, or perhaps even children who have been brainwashed with a religious philosophy. Perhaps the people coming would want to attack us themselves, or perhaps they would be used to recruit Canadians into ISIS and act as technical SMEs. Who knows? Also, remember that "Syria" is a "fake" country that is a collection of religious sects that have been warring for generations and that only 5 years ago Syria was calling for the destruction of Israel. The point is that there is a real threat and that we, as Canadians, have a responsibility to ensure to the greatest extent possible that we protect our population for threats. Therein, is it not reasonable that there be a compromise and that we vet the people coming into Canada to the best extent we can to minimize potential direct or indirect threats to Canadian citizens? Wouldn't extending the timeline to look at establishing a vetting process, IAW what terrorism and immigration experts are saying, be a reasonable trade off for helping the Syrians and ensuring that we protect our own? Also, calling anyone who has concerns xenophobic or racist retracts from your argument and makes you look pretentious.
> 
> 
> As per normal, some political compromise is what is called for. Unfortunately what social media gives us is zealots from two totally different ends of a political spectrum screaming at each other with megaphones hoping that they can yell the loudest.


----------



## daftandbarmy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There's a media piece "trending" on the Internet right now which suggests that IS** is just taking credit for what are, actually, just random attacks. The TV host says that they are, by and large, IS** _inspired_ but they, all these attacks, are neither organized nor coordinated by IS**. Young, disaffected men are encouraged, by Internet propaganda, to "strike out" at the Western, host society and then IS** takes the credit.  :dunno:



But when something goes wrong, the first thing to fix is the blame.  ;D


----------



## opcougar

You don't....regardless of where the refugees are coming from, empathy always gets in the way of stringent checks / rational thinking. This is the reason why some use refugee claims, as well as capital punishment as excuses to get into a certain country. There is no doubt something needs to change when it comes to refugee status...here are some courses of action

1. Sponsors have to sign a waiver that they will be responsible for a person/family for 10yrs
2. Just as in permanent residency / immigration, if you are caught breaking the law, you automatically get sent back
3. A yearly fixed quota needs to be set



			
				suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Recce I can agree with both your above points but I just don't see this staying a middle eastern/arab/muslim problem. *I too would love to know how one vets a refugee.* A person who by definition is likely to have lost any ability to prove their identity. I certainly doubt the quality of the people doing the vetting as well as I have too many experiences with their ilk.


----------



## Haggis

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There's a media piece "trending" on the Internet right now which suggests that IS** is just taking credit for what are, actually, just random attacks. The TV host says that they are, by and large, IS** _inspired_ but they, all these attacks, are neither organized nor coordinated by IS**. Young, disaffected men are encouraged, by Internet propaganda, to "strike out" at the Western, host society and then IS** takes the credit.  :dunno:



Are you questioning the credibility of the caliphate's media arm?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

opcougar said:
			
		

> Side Note: If France knew of the ISIS weapon depot and camps as claimed after their planes "bombed these sites", why didn't they do it before the Paris attacks?



What difference?  It's an IF and IF they did know before, so what?  If they didn't, so what? 

There are a few reasons those targets might have been known before and not struck, or not known before and then ID'd and struck;  IMO none of those 'reasons' are discussion points for public forums.


----------



## cupper

Interesting commentary and interviews NPR while driving home tonight. Looks like some are laying part of the blame on Merkel and Germany's open door policy from earlier this year. Some even speculate that this could be the final straw to bring about the downfall of the EU, or at least create the restoration of internal borders and controls.


----------



## Haggis

Various American news outlets. including the Washington Post (shared with the usual disclaimers), are contemplating the consequences of France invoking Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty.


----------



## Old Sweat

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There's a media piece "trending" on the Internet right now which suggests that IS** is just taking credit for what are, actually, just random attacks. The TV host says that they are, by and large, IS** _inspired_ but they, all these attacks, are neither organized nor coordinated by IS**. Young, disaffected men are encouraged, by Internet propaganda, to "strike out" at the Western, host society and then IS** takes the credit.  :dunno:



An how plausible is that? It seems to be right up there with the reactions to the video used to justify the Benghazi attack and all the riots on anniversary of 9/11. Sure is a coincidence that these guys all decided to make explosives in their kitchens and then attack three high publicity garnering targets all at the same time.

We also have been friends and drinking buddies for almost 50 years, and I know you are opening up another line of examination.


----------



## Tuan

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> On a side note- I thought one of the new governments principles was compromise and "real change" in parliament through the engagements of all parliamentarians? What I see today is decisions (pull CF-18s out, accept refugees, etc) made outside of parliament without allowance for debate. Where's the "real change"?



The parliament didn't sit for debate yet; however, these important issues should definitely have a public debate at this critical stage. Trudeau was campaigning on these key platforms so he has to keep his election promises I guess.

I am not going to agree to bringing 25,000 refugees just like that before end of this year jeopardizing Canadian’s security, nevertheless, I’m all for pulling out the CF-18s while expanding the training mission.

I’ll tell you why:

1.	Just because of the US led western powers are engaged in bombing missions in Iraq and Syria, doesn't mean it is right. Why? 
2.	Because, regardless of the complexities of sectarian divide, the six-state GCC countries in ME are playing their cards deviously.  
3.	They successfully draw the US led west, who is desperately looking for someone to sell their weapons, into this chaos while GCC nations are being very diplomatic with ISIS.
4.	There is no single attack in these wealthy GCC countries to date, whereas the west got caught into the ISIS world view of Crusade vs. Jihad narrative. 
5.	Thus, in my opinion, we should turn the tables around diplomatically and make only Muslims fight the Muslims contrary to Christians fight the Muslims.
6.	It is against this backdrop, I believe, that not only Canada but also NATO should withdraw from its bombing mission and train and arm GCC plus the indigenous/local military to fight ISIS effectively.  :2c:


----------



## dapaterson

John Oliver takes advantage of the few restraints on cable TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRulzotv51I


----------



## Tuan

dapaterson said:
			
		

> John Oliver takes advantage of the few restraints on cable TV.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRulzotv51I



This is what I call soft power  ;D


----------



## cupper

dapaterson said:
			
		

> John Oliver takes advantage of the few restraints on cable TV.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRulzotv51I



Good thing we have beavertails.  :nod:


----------



## opcougar

Like you said..."IMO". It hasn't stopped the media asking the question though, and I'll like to think the opinion of the masses trumps a solitary one



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> What difference?  It's an IF and IF they did know before, so what?  If they didn't, so what?
> 
> There are a few reasons those targets might have been known before and not struck, or not known before and then ID'd and struck;  IMO *none of those 'reasons' are discussion points for public forums*.


----------



## Tuan

Dear fellow human,

I know it’s 2015 and we don’t write love letters anymore, but this one is a little different — it’s for the world. It’s not coming to you on a pigeon or via a postman, but directly to your computer or phone screen. And if you agree with Dumbledore when he said,
“Happiness can be found, even in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”

Then read along.

A love letter to Beirut, Paris and beyond from Sri Lanka


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Tuan said:
			
		

> The parliament didn't sit for debate yet; however, these important issues should definitely have a public debate at this critical stage. Trudeau was campaigning on these key platforms so he has to keep his election promises I guess.



It's amazing how the 39% that voted liberal represent a clear mandate and campaign promises can be made without debate but tge conservatives 39% was not a majority since 61% voted for other parties and not debating important policy issues was tyranny. Times sure change


----------



## Kirkhill

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> It's amazing how the 39% that voted liberal represent a clear mandate and campaign promises can be made without debate but tge conservatives 39% was not a majority since 61% voted for other parties and not debating important policy issues was tyranny. Times sure change



But now it is the right 39%, not the Right 39%.


----------



## opcougar

Things about to get interesting



> Anonymous, a loose-knit international network of activist hackers, is preparing to unleash waves of cyber attacks on Islamic State following the attacks in Paris last week that killed 129 people, a self-described member said in a video.



http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/paris-terror-attacks/anonymous-vows-cyber-attacks-on-isil-34206942.html


----------



## Oscar590

France invokes EU Article 42.7 and will request a meeting and resolution of the UN Security Council.https://euobserver.com/political/131136


----------



## a_majoor

More on a possible French response. I'm pretty sure France will be pushing for the allied nations to go after ISIS with fire and swords as well.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/11/france-could-commit-foreign-legion-to.html



> *France could commit the foreign legion to Syria and could invoke NATO Article 5 requiring joint NATO action*
> 
> France bombed the Syrian city of Raqqa on Sunday night, its most aggressive strike against the Islamic State group it blames for killing 129 people in a string of terrorist attacks across Paris only two days before.
> 
> President François Hollande, who vowed to be “unforgiving with the barbarians” of the Islamic State after the carnage in Paris, decided on the airstrikes in a meeting with his national security team on Saturday, officials said.
> 
> Militants with AK-47s and suicide vests shattered the peaceful revelry of Paris on Friday night, killing dozens of civilians in restaurants and at a concert hall, France seemed intent on sending a clear message of its determination to curb the Islamic State and its ability to launch attacks outside the territory it controls.
> 
> The revelations that at least four French citizens were involved in the attacks — three brothers and a man who lived around Chartres, about 60 miles southwest of Paris — seemed destined to exacerbate longstanding fears in France about the place of Muslim immigrants and converts in French society.
> 
> The French Defense Ministry said in a statement that the raid, coordinated with American forces, was led by 12 French aircraft, including 10 fighter jets, and had destroyed two Islamic State targets in Raqqa, the radical group’s self-proclaimed capital.
> 
> The United States provided French officials with information to help them strike Islamic State targets in Syria, known as “strike packages,” American officials said.
> 
> France will deploy its aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle to the Gulf for strikes against the Islamic State on November 18. The deployment will be the second time in 2015 that the carrier has taken part in Operation 'Chammal', as France terms its anti-Islamic State strikes, having deployed to the Gulf from 23 February to 18 April.
> 
> With 20 Rafale and Super Etendard Modernise (SEM) aircraft on board, the Charles de Gaulle will help relieve the pressure on France's land-based aircraft in the region (three Mirage 2000Ds and three Mirage 2000Ns in Jordan; and six Rafales in the UAE).
> 
> France might commit the French Foreign Legion to Syria
> 
> Mr. Reuel Marc Gerecht, a former case officer in the Central Intelligence Agency, is a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Gerecht gave an analysis in the Wall Street Journal.
> 
> Because of the attacks Friday, the narrative will change. The soft-power-heavy, somewhat guilty Western analysis of Islamic militancy—where the progressive-minded avoid referring to Islam in describing an antipathy that sanctifies killing—is now dead in Europe and will soon be irretrievably embarrassing across the Atlantic.
> 
> If France committed to seeing this fight through to the end, the French make it more likely that the U.S. will commit more ground troops in Iraq and, as consequentially, put soldiers into Syria to create a defensible haven where civilians and the armed Sunni opposition can gather without fear of attack. Europe’s refugee and counterterrorist nightmares have no chance of resolution until the Syrian war is stopped.
> 
> If the French are willing to commit the Foreign Legion in Syria, an idea no longer unthinkable, it is much more likely that the Americans will consider ground troops and the arduous, dangerous, long-term effort to stabilize Syria. Although profoundly constrained by the size of its armed forces, France could serve, as Margaret Thatcher did for George H.W. Bush, as a back stiffener and force multiplier.
> 
> There are currently about 7700 soldiers in the French foreign legion.
> 
> France could invoke NATO Article 5 for a hard power attack on ISIS
> 
> “There is a time for soft power and playing the long game in the Middle East, but there is also a time for the ruthless application of hard power. It is NATO’s responsibility to recognize our current moment qualifies as the latter,” James Stavridis, a retired Navy admiral and former NATO top commander in Europe, wrote in Foreign Policy. “The Islamic State is an apocalyptic organization overdue for eradication.”
> 
> France hasn’t announced whether it will invoke Article 5, Stoltenberg told the Journal NATO’s members stand ready to assist.
> 
> The defense clause of NATO’s founding treaty stipulates that if invoked, each of the members will assist the party attacked. NATO’s military resources include more than 3 million troops under arms, 25,000 aircraft and 800 oceangoing warships, according to Foreign Policy. Economically, the alliance is also an intimidating force, representing more than 50 percent of global GDP.
> 
> The only time Article 5 has been invoked was after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks on the New York and Washington, which prompted NATO’s participation in the Afghanistan military mission. Should France become the second country to do so, ambassadors of the 28 nations would need to convene for consultation to determine a plan of action. The last country to request such a consultation was Turkey after attacks by ISIS in 2014.
> 
> “Hopefully, President Hollande will call Article 5 of NATO. And maybe we'll put together a coalition that can for once attack this horrific terrorist element before they have ability to carry out another coordinated attack like this,” North Carolina GOP Rep. Richard Burr, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said on NBC’s “Meet the Press.”
> 
> Holland is scheduled to address the French Parliament on Monday, during which he could lay out his plan.
> 
> He said after the attacks in and around Paris on Friday night that France “will be merciless toward the barbarians of the Islamic State group,” which has claimed responsibility for the killings.
> 
> White House Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes said Sunday that the United States would back France calling for Article 5.
> 
> SOURCES - Wall Street Journal, Wikipedia, IBTimes, Janes, NY Times


----------



## daftandbarmy

You just KNOW things are getting REALLY serious when the historians start to weigh in :boring: 

Daftandbarmy, BA (Hist)

Martin van Creveld asks: Has a new Thirty Years’ War begun in Europe?

Summary: Today Martin van Creveld gives us a chilling warning, one that appears more accurate after the attacks on Paris. Our invasions after 9/11 destabilized the Middle East, and the resulting  fires slowly grow hotter and spread. If events follow the course of the Thirty Years’ War, much worse awaits us in the future.


http://fabiusmaximus.com/2015/11/16/new-30-years-war-in-europe-90331/


----------



## McG

Apparently there was a Canadian casualty in Friday's attack.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadian-injured-in-paris-attacks-on-friday/article27290973/


----------



## Eye In The Sky

opcougar said:
			
		

> Like you said..."IMO". It hasn't stopped the media asking the question though, and I'll like to think the opinion of the masses trumps a solitary one



Well, I base my "IMO" on things like OPSEC, "need to know", NDSIs, and stuff like that.  Security protocols, laws, regulations and directives trump what you'll 'like to think'.   :nod:

The media asked the question 'who was the second shooter on the grassy knoll?" too.   :-*


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

opcougar said:
			
		

> Like you said..."IMO". It hasn't stopped the media asking the question though, and I'll like to think the opinion of the masses trumps a solitary one



Opcougar,

it doesn't take a genius or someone in the know to figure out the targets France attacked were already painted for destruction, the other countries in the MESF just gave France all the bombing runs for a political effect.  It's called politics, "here France, you need a lift so here are all the targets we were going to hit today, you can hit them all instead"... voila the French public gets a much needed morale boost and the rest of the MESF can take the day off.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, the  :Tin-Foil-Hat: Brigade saddles up ....


> A series of bloody attacks in Paris exposed a handful of aspects that have so far been hindered by the official rhetoric of Western politicians and media sources in order to show the so-called “success” of “anti-terrorist campaign” unleashed by Washington. But first one must ask the question – who benefits from the Paris attacks?
> 
> (....)
> 
> The EU has been searching for a “decent way out” of the migration crisis, especially in a situation when EU member states started fighting over migrant quotas, reluctant to suffer any more economical damage. After all, no one would genuinely believe that French security services, once they were provided with unlimited capabilities to spy on any resident in the country, would “miss” terrorists planning to slaughter the civilian population with AKs, especially during such days when the French president is holding a meeting with the honorary guest of a neighboring state.
> 
> (....)
> 
> It is possible that in the next weeks we will learn of even more “shadow aspects” of the brutal attack on Paris, and about the role Western elites played in it. It may be that we are witnessing a repeat of “Operation Gladio“, due to which hundreds of innocent Italians perished in CIA-planned terrorist attacks that were aimed at ensuring the success of Western oligarchies.


More ....


> At 7pm on Friday 13th we do not have much information about the "terrorist attacks" in Paris other than that Paris is closed down like Boston was after the "Boston Marathon Bombing," also a suspected false flag event.
> 
> Possibly believable evidence will be presented that the Paris attacks were real terrorist attacks. However, what do refugees have to gain from making themselves unwelcome with acts of violence committed against the host country, and where do refugees in France obtain automatic weapons and bombs? Indeed, where would the French themselves obtain them?
> 
> The millions of refugees from Washington's wars who are overrunning Europe are bringing to the forefront of European politics the anti-EU nationalists parties, such as Pegida in Germany, Nigel Farage's UK Independence Party, and Marine Le Pen's National Front Party in France. These anti-EU political parties are also anti-immigrant political parties.
> 
> The latest French poll shows that, as a result of the refugees from Washington's wars, Marine Le Pen has come out on top of the candidates for the next French presidential election.
> 
> By supporting for 14 years Washington's neoconservative wars for US hegemony over the Middle East, establishment European governments eroded their electoral support. European peoples want to be French, German, Dutch, Italian, Hungarian, Czech, British. They do not want their countries to be a diverse Tower of Babel created by millions of refugees from Washington's wars.
> 
> To remain a nationality unto themselves is what Pegida, Farage, and Le Pen offer the voters.
> 
> Realizing its vulnerability, it is entirely possible that the French Establishment made a decision to protect its hold on power with a false flag attack that would allow the Establishment to close France's borders and, thereby, deprive Marine Le Pen of her main political issue.
> 
> Some people are so naive and stupid as to think that no government would kill its own citizens. But governments do so all the time. There are an endless number of false flag attacks, such as Operation Gladio. Operation Gladio was a CIA/Italian intelligence operation that relentlessly bombed innocent Italians, such as those waiting in a train station, murdering hundreds, and then blaming the violence on the European communist parties in the post-WW II era in order to block the communists from electoral gains ....


----------



## Edward Campbell

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> You just KNOW things are getting REALLY serious when the historians start to weigh in :boring:
> 
> Daftandbarmy, BA (Hist)
> 
> Martin van Creveld asks: Has a new Thirty Years’ War begun in Europe?
> 
> Summary: Today Martin van Creveld gives us a chilling warning, one that appears more accurate after the attacks on Paris. Our invasions after 9/11 destabilized the Middle East, and the resulting  fires slowly grow hotter and spread. If events follow the course of the Thirty Years’ War, much worse awaits us in the future.
> 
> 
> http://fabiusmaximus.com/2015/11/16/new-30-years-war-in-europe-90331/




Indeed, which is why we have this whole thread. But, there's always a "but," with me, the important issue isn't the _Thirty-Years War_ (nor the Muslim version thereof), nor it is the religious _reformation_ over which the Thirty-Years war was fought, it is the socio-cultural _enlightenment_ which, I believe, must happen throughout most of the _Islamic Crescent_.


----------



## GAP

Strange

literally hundreds of citizens are maimed and killed in violent terrorist acts throughout Africa and sometimes Asia, but it never makes page 3, let alone page 1.

I see no anti terrorist campaigns, little bombing, no martial law, tightening of borders in these places, but let it happen in France, the US, etc suddenly chicken little has come.........


I wonder if they still serve "French Fries" in NY?

 :2c:


----------



## George Wallace

GAP said:
			
		

> Strange
> 
> literally hundreds of citizens are maimed and killed in violent terrorist acts throughout Africa and sometimes Asia, but it never makes page 3, let alone page 1.
> 
> I see no anti terrorist campaigns, little bombing, no martial law, tightening of borders in these places, but let it happen in France, the US, etc suddenly chicken little has come.........
> 
> 
> I wonder if they still serve "French Fries" in NY?
> 
> :2c:



Is it really that strange?  "If it happens in your house, it is more important news to your family, than if it happens on the other side of town to some stranger."  In this case, Paris is within the "house and family" of the WEST, and pertinent to "family security"; as opposed to events in a Third World nations.  At the same time, any security and military responses taken by the WEST in Third World nations to those events, are not front page news in Western MSM.  I am sure that there are responses being made by such nations as France through employment of the FFE in some of those locals, totally overlooked by Western MSM.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, Terminal Lance speaks on behalf of all warriors.... except for the 'explicit act' thing of course

http://terminallance.com/2015/11/17/terminal-lance-ready-for-action/


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Africa is China's problem now. They want to develop it, they can take care of it.


----------



## Journeyman

Lean-N-Supreme said:
			
		

> France invokes EU Article 42.7 and will request a meeting and resolution of the UN Security Council.


Well, I think we're pretty much at the end-game with ISIS now.  

Invoking an EU Article, _plus _ a UN meeting being the icing on the cake, ISIS is all but relegated to the dustbin of history.    op:


----------



## Tuan

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> When was there any statement that we should adopt anti-refugee policies? The point was that the political right wants security and the left wants humanity... there's a middle ground to be had that meets both ends. Saying things short of "bring them all in now!" isn't anti-refugee...



Obama tells it as it is: 
https://www.facebook.com/Vox/videos/454571884730419/


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Well, I think we're pretty much at the end-game with ISIS now.
> 
> Invoking an EU Article, _plus _ a UN meeting being the icing on the cake, ISIS is all but relegated to the dustbin of history.    op:


Don't forget the G20's statement there, too ....


> We condemn, in the strongest possible terms, the heinous terrorist attacks in Paris on 13 November and in Ankara on 10 October. They are an unacceptable affront to all humanity. We extend our deepest condolences to the victims of terrorist attacks and their families. We reaffirm our solidarity and resolve in the fight against terrorism in all its forms and wherever it occurs.
> We remain united in combatting terrorism. The spread of terrorist organizations and significant rise globally in acts of terrorism directly undermine the maintenance of international peace and security and endangers our ongoing efforts to strengthen the global economy and ensure sustainable growth and development.
> We unequivocally condemn all acts, methods and practices of terrorism, which cannot be justified under any circumstances, regardless of their motivation, in all their forms and manifestations, wherever and by whomsoever committed.
> We reaffirm that terrorism cannot and should not be associated with any religion, nationality, civilization or ethnic group.
> The fight against terrorism is a major priority for all of our countries and we reiterate our resolve to work together to prevent and suppress terrorist acts through increased international solidarity and cooperation, in full recognition of the UN’s central role, and in accordance with UN Charter and obligations under international law, including international human rights law, international refugee law and international humanitarian law, as well as through the full implementation of the relevant international conventions, UN Security Council Resolutions and the UN Global Counter Terrorism Strategy.
> We also remain committed to tackling the financing channels of terrorism, particularly by enhanced cooperation on exchange of information and freezing of terrorist assets, criminalization of terrorist financing and robust targeted financial sanctions regimes related to terrorism and terrorist financing, including through swift implementation of Financial Action Task Force (FATF) standards in all jurisdictions. We will continue to implement relevant FATF recommendations and instruments. We call on FATF to identify measures, including pertaining to legal framework, to strengthen combatting of terrorism financing and targeted financial sanctions and implementation thereof.
> Our counter terrorism actions must continue to be part of a comprehensive approach based on addressing the conditions conducive to terrorism as stipulated in UN Security Council Resolution 2178, countering violent extremism, combatting radicalization and recruitment, hampering terrorist movements, countering terrorist propaganda and to prevent terrorists from exploiting technology, communications and resources to incite terrorist acts, including through the internet. The direct or indirect encouragement of terrorism, the incitement of terrorist acts and glorification of violence must be prevented. We recognize the need at all levels to work proactively to prevent violent extremism and support civil society in engaging youth and promoting inclusion of all members of society.
> We are concerned over the acute and growing flow of foreign terrorist fighters and the threat it poses for all States, including countries of origin, transit and destination. We are resolved to address this threat by enhancing our cooperation and developing relevant measures to prevent and tackle this phenomenon, including operational information-sharing, border management to detect travel, preventive measures and appropriate criminal justice response. We will work together to strengthen global aviation security.
> The continued and recent terrorist attacks all across the world have shown once again the need for increased international cooperation and solidarity in the fight against terrorism. We will always remember the victims of these attacks.


----------



## Kilo_302

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> It's amazing how the 39% that voted liberal represent a clear mandate and campaign promises can be made without debate but tge conservatives 39% was not a majority since 61% voted for other parties and not debating important policy issues was tyranny. Times sure change



You're forgetting that 19% of Canadians also voted for the NDP, 4.7% voted Bloc and 3.5% voted Green. 66% of Canadians voted against Harper, and the positions of these parties are quite similar versus the agenda of the Conservatives. At times the NDP and the Liberal platforms were almost indistinguishable. I agree with you that 39% shouldn't be considered a "mandate" and is simply not a majority, but the Conservatives have only themselves to blame for the amount of daylight between them and the rest of the federal parties in Canada.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit of a round up from the U.S. Congressional Research Service on what's happened so far - they tend to do good stuff, so worth a read.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> You're forgetting that 19% of Canadians also voted for the NDP, 4.7% voted Bloc and 3.5% voted Green. 66% of Canadians voted against Harper, and the positions of these parties are quite similar versus the agenda of the Conservatives. At times the NDP and the Liberal platforms were almost indistinguishable. I agree with you that 39% shouldn't be considered a "mandate" and is simply not a majority, but the Conservatives have only themselves to blame for the amount of daylight between them and the rest of the federal parties in Canada.



Ahhh, this argument again. I suspect that if either the Liberals or the NDP went the way of the dodo than we would see a situation more like the US where elections are generally around the 50-50 range. 61% voted against Trudeau, so why does it matter what part of the spectrum the other parties fall on?


----------



## dapaterson

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Ahhh, this argument again. I suspect that if either the Liberals or the NDP went the way of the dodo than we would see a situation more like the US where elections are generally around the 50-50 range. 61% voted against Trudeau, so why does it matter what part of the spectrum the other parties fall on?



It matters if it can be twisted to support my opinion.  Otherwise, it's irrelevant.   >


----------



## GR66

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> You're forgetting that 19% of Canadians also voted for the NDP, 4.7% voted Bloc and 3.5% voted Green. 66% of Canadians voted against Harper, and the positions of these parties are quite similar versus the agenda of the Conservatives. At times the NDP and the Liberal platforms were almost indistinguishable. I agree with you that 39% shouldn't be considered a "mandate" and is simply not a majority, but the Conservatives have only themselves to blame for the amount of daylight between them and the rest of the federal parties in Canada.



That's nice of you to assume that everyone who did not select the Conservatives on their ballot on election night would prefer to have Trudeau over Harper as PM.  Not everyone who did not vote Conservative is an "Anything But Harper" supporter and not everyone votes for their MP based soley on their preference for party leader.

The Liberals were elected with a plurality of the vote.  That gives them the full, legitimate right to govern in our system.  It doesn't however make THEIR 39% support any more or less legitimate than any other previous government's 39% support.


----------



## Kirkhill

Before proceeding with the measuring of whose is how big you might want to take a look at the graph attached below.

It is party-neutral.  It describes the percentage of the popular vote supporting the governing party of the day multiplied by the turnout percentage.  Thus it shows the percentage of Canadians supporting the Government of the Day.

From my perspective both/all parties come up short.

One of the most misused/abused terms out there is "mandate".  Parties may receive mandates from their supporters.  Patently they do not receive mandates from the general populace.

Canadians accept that according to a generally agreed set of rules a group of people gets to govern their lives, and represent them overseas, for a period of 4 or 5 years.  And that is all that an election means.

Can the Party do as it chooses?  Absolutely.  And if they choose to mollify their supporters while distressing the rest of the population they will find out the merits of that Course of Action at the next election.

Carry on and sell what you can.....


----------



## Tuan

Don't know how credible it is but certainly a different perception.....

Award Winning American Journalist Exposes The True Origin Of ISIS & The “War On Terror”



> “The statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.” – Mark Twain (source)
> 
> Award winning journalist Ben Swann shares a number of facts regarding the origin and creation of ISIS, the supposed terrorist group that seems to have replaced Al-Qaeda and, according to former FBI translator and founder of the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition (NSWBC) Sibel Edmunds, has revived the “terror war industry.”
> 
> When it comes to supposed “terrorist” attacks, it’s no secret that the government or the “powers that be” are involved in some way, shape, or form. We’ve seen this with Al-Qaeda, and various documents that have tied them to U.S. intelligence agencies like the CIA. We’ve also seen a lot of shady circumstances surrounding the “terrorist” attacks that occurred on 9/11; the evidence alone has approximately half of the American people believing it was an inside job – a simple Google search of the polls will show you that, and for the evidence we are referring to, you can access our articles on that topic here.
> 
> “All three buildings were destroyed by carefully planned, orchestrated and executed controlled demolition.” – Professor Lynn Margulis, Department of Geosciences, University of Massachusetts at Amherst and National Academy of Science member, one of many academics who has been very outspoken regarding 9/11 (source) (source)
> 
> All of this activity continues to be used as more justification for a heightened national security state, one in which citizens are being forced to give up their freedoms and privacy in order to be “protected” from such attacks. The entire national security state would crumble if people found out that it was their own government perpetrating these attacks, and this realization is finally beginning to leave the realm of conspiracy and enter into the realm of reality in the minds of the masses. It’s about time.
> 
> “Most terrorists are false flag terrorists, or are created by our own security services. In the United States, every single terrorist incident we have had has been a false flag, or has been an informant pushed on by the FBI. In fact, we now have citizens taking out restraining orders against FBI informants that are trying to incite terrorism. We’ve become a lunatic asylum.” – David Steele, a 20-year Marine Corps intelligence officer, and the second-highest-ranking civilian in the U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence (source)
> 
> The “terrorists” we are pointing our fingers at (or so I believe, along with many others, after having done careful research) are a creation of Western intelligence, used to justify the infiltration of other countries for ulterior motives.  Those who usually do not believe that, almost one hundred percent of the time have not actually done any research, or examined the information for themselves. This is the power mainstream media has over us – if something is depicted on television, it’s instantly believed without question. Any other explanation which does not come from a major mainstream media outlet (like CNN, for example), or fit the framework of accepted knowledge, seems to be met with harsh resistance. This resistance comes despite the fact that a tremendous amount of evidence is available in the form of videos, documents, and whistle-blowers, yet a large majority of people still refuse to do any research for themselves, or again, believe something contrary to what Western media is telling them.
> 
> “The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al-Qaeda, and any informed intelligence officer knows this. But, there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an intensified entity representing the ‘devil’ only in order to drive TV watchers to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the United States.” – Former British Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'd like to see guards at the entrances to bases armed. Having a heavily armed security force wouldn't hurt either.  I'd go so far as to say put armed soldiers on guard out side of schools.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

RocketRichard said:
			
		

> Question: Is this thread about what happened on Nov 13th in Paris or the federal election?  Curious.





			
				Remius said:
			
		

> I'm starting to wonder where to post things...the threads are getting muddled.



Tangents happen. On most threads. Most times they get back on track pretty easy. The more useless, sarcastic posts that get entered, that add nothing to the thread, the harder it is to keep it on track. If you're ever confused again, use the Report to Moderator button.

---Staff---


----------



## Journeyman

Tuan said:
			
		

> Don't know how credible it is .....



It's not.  Although it does speak to your credibility.


----------



## dimsum

Tuan said:
			
		

> Don't know how credible it is but certainly a different perception.....
> 
> Award Winning American Journalist Exposes The True Origin Of ISIS & The “War On Terror”



That article suggests 9/11 was staged.  I think we can see its credibility right there.


----------



## Tuan

Journeyman said:
			
		

> It's not.  Although it does speak to your credibility.



Yes Sir! I am not credible, but you keep watching CNN, which is very credible....


----------



## Loachman

Tuan said:
			
		

> Yes Sir! I am not credible, but you keep watching CNN, which is very credible....



At least the first clause of your second sentence is accurate.

Journeyman has been to more theres and done more thats than you could ever hope to match.


----------



## cupper

Quick background, last year my company was purchased by our main competitor which in turn is owned by a French conglomerate.

Today we received a corporate wide e-mail sent out by one of the subsidiary companies expressing condolences for an employee who died in the attack at the concert venue.

Rest in peace sir.


----------



## CougarKing

Maybe the time stamp on the tweet in the 2nd article was simply wrong?

Associated Press via Yahoo News



> *The Latest: German authorities investigate migrant who allegedly warned of Paris attack*
> The Canadian Press
> By The Associated Press
> 
> PARIS - The latest on the deadly attacks in Paris. (All times local):
> 
> 2:40 p.m.
> 
> German authorities are investigating claims that an Algerian man warned fellow migrants last week of an imminent attack in Paris.
> 
> A spokesman for prosecutors in Arnsberg says the unidentified 39-year-old was detained at a refugee shelter in the western German town, after two Syrian men contacted police Saturday.
> 
> Werner Wolff confirmed Monday a report by public broadcaster WDR that the man had told the Syrians that Paris would be subjected to "fear and terror."
> 
> (...SNIPPED)



Yahoo News



> *Twitter Goes Into Meltdown After Discovering Account That ‘Predicted’ Paris Attacks*
> Yahoo News – 8 hours ago
> 
> A Twitter account that seemingly ‘predicted’ the Paris terror attacks has made some people believe the whole thing was a conspiracy.
> 
> The @PZBooks account sent out a tweet on November 11 - two days before terrorists launched their deadly rampage across the French capital - that referenced the attacks and detailed how many had been killed.
> 
> It read: “BREAKING: Death toll from Paris terror attack rises to at least 120 with 270 others injured.”
> 
> Some people were understandably confused about the tweet:
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## opcougar

Well....it's a reality of the world we live in; unfortunately we aren't created equal, and empathy most of the time is reserved for people whom others consider to be like them. The question has been asked...why aren't people in Beirut getting the same love?



			
				GAP said:
			
		

> Strange
> 
> literally hundreds of citizens are maimed and killed in violent terrorist acts throughout Africa and sometimes Asia, but it never makes page 3, let alone page 1.
> 
> I see no anti terrorist campaigns, little bombing, no martial law, tightening of borders in these places, but let it happen in France, the US, etc suddenly chicken little has come.........
> 
> 
> I wonder if they still serve "French Fries" in NY?
> 
> :2c:


----------



## McG

A related police raid in Paris is resulting in gunfire and officers wounded.

Paris attacks: Police swoop on apartment in northern suburb
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34853657


----------



## McG

Looks like the French may have found the killers' commander.


> *Police target alleged plotter Abdelhamid Abaaoud in raid
> Some police have been injured, 2 suspects reportedly dead*
> CBC News
> 18 Nov 2015 12:47 AM ET Last Updated: 2:20 AM ET
> 
> French police were involved in a prolonged shootout in the northern Paris suburb of Saint-Denis early on Wednesday, where an Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) militant suspected of plotting last week's attacks was believed to be holed up.
> 
> Police and justice sources said Abdelhamid Abaaoud, 27, thought to have pulled the strings from Syria, was strongly believed to be among a group of people holed up in an apartment in the northern suburb near the national soccer stadium, one of the sites attacked by suicide bombers last week.
> 
> Shooting began at about 4.30 a.m. local time and police special forces of the RAID unit were still involved in exchanges of fire three hours later, witnesses said.
> 
> A police source said three suspects had been arrested so far. A justice source said at least two had been killed, including a woman who blew herself up with a suicide belt.
> 
> The source said the operation was still under way shortly before 8 a.m.and police were still trying to "neutralize" two more suspects.
> 
> ...



http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/france-wed-night-raids-1.3323861


----------



## Altair

Seems like Hollande is serious about building a coalition to fight isil. Talking to  Russia Iran and the usa.

Disappointed he doesn't look like he's going to invoke article 5 of NATO but some action from Paris Moscow and Tehran is better than no action from Washington. 

Wonder if he's looking at using ground troops. God I hope so.


----------



## tomahawk6

No ground troops should be necessary there is the Syrian Army backed by Iranian advisors. :camo:


----------



## jollyjacktar

From the Daily Mail.  It's believed the masterminds' old lady was the one who blew up in the raid.  Condolences at the loss of the police service dog, hope the wounded officer recovers fully.  Lots of photographs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3323196/Shooting-breaks-Paris-suburb-anti-terrorist-operation.html


----------



## tomahawk6

English football fans sing the Marseillaise t a recent match to show solidaity with France.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeFNAPZYy-Q


----------



## Kilo_302

Here's a bunch of further reading for those of you interested in analysis beyond CNN/CBC et al. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-nJ60drWc

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/15/lets_not_get_it_wrong_this_time_the_terrorists_won_after_911_because_we_chose_to_invade_iraq_shred_our_constitution/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

http://www.thenation.com/article/the-saudis-are-stumbling-they-may-take-the-middle-east-with-them/

This clip of Putin is very interesting. Of course he has his own interests to pursue, but he is spot on when it comes to who is funding ISIS. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuceU3x2Ww&feature=youtu.be

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq


----------



## jollyjacktar

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> English football fans sing the Marseillaise t a recent match to show solidaity with France.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeFNAPZYy-Q



And in Turkey... 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3322708/Turkey-supporters-boo-minute-s-silence-victims-Paris-attacks-prior-team-s-friendly-against-Greece-Istanbul.html


----------



## jollyjacktar

The prosecutor isn't saying jack, but others have confirmed the douchbag behind the cell was killed in the raid today.  BZ Gendarmes.   

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3323196/Shooting-breaks-Paris-suburb-anti-terrorist-operation.html


----------



## opcougar

This is bound to backfire on the Turks in the UK.....which there is quite a lot of them in London.




			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And in Turkey...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3322708/Turkey-supporters-boo-minute-s-silence-victims-Paris-attacks-prior-team-s-friendly-against-Greece-Istanbul.html


----------



## opcougar

Sickening.....this bothers me more than refugees / immigrants from wherever.



> Montreal police have charged a 24-year-old man in connection with a video posted on YouTube that shows someone in a "Joker" mask threatening to kill Muslim people in Quebec.
> 
> Jesse Pelletier faces charges of uttering threats, inciting hatred against an identifiable group, making a declaration to incite fear among an identifiable group, and using a fake firearm.









http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-police-arrest-man-mask-joker-muslims-1.3324089

Side note: 



> Majority of Canadians oppose Trudeau’s plan to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees over in just six weeks: poll



So the question...who exactly did the poll ask, it turns out there is no surprise there. Xenophobia at its finest



> Opposition is highest in Alberta (62 per cent) and lowest in Atlantic Canada (46 per cent).
> 
> The poll suggests that Premier Brad Wall is on the right side of public opinion in Saskatchewan.




http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/majority-of-canadians-oppose-trudeaus-plan-to-bring-25000-syrian-refugees-over-in-just-six-weeks-poll


----------



## George Wallace

opcougar said:
			
		

> Side note:
> 
> So the question...who exactly did the poll ask, it turns out there is no surprise there. Xenophobia at its finest



On whose part?  The people polled or you?


----------



## Remius

opcougar said:
			
		

> Sickening.....this bothers me more than refugees / immigrants from wherever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-police-arrest-man-mask-joker-muslims-1.3324089
> 
> Side note:
> 
> So the question...who exactly did the poll ask, it turns out there is no surprise there. Xenophobia at its finest
> 
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/majority-of-canadians-oppose-trudeaus-plan-to-bring-25000-syrian-refugees-over-in-just-six-weeks-poll



Man, maybe people are concerned about the timing as opposed to the number or where they are from.  6 weeks to bring in that many people is putting a lot of pressure on the system.  Not everyone is xenophobic or racists.  Being prudent doesn't mean that.  Give it a rest.


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> So the question...who exactly did the poll ask, it turns out there is no surprise there. Xenophobia at its finest



Do you legitimately not understand why people are concerned about parachuting 25'000 undocumented refugees into Canada in 6 short weeks? Or the security risks it can cause?
And you think having safety concerns translates to disliking people from other countries? Have you considered speaking to someone medically about your phobia that everyone you encounter is a racist?


----------



## opcougar

What I understand is that the "concerns" go deep than just what happened in Paris. How is this different from what we've dome in the past i.e. bring in loads of undocumented people (refugees) from elsewhere? To think this doesn't have xenophobic underlying to it, is to think Santa is real



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you legitimately not understand why people are concerned about parachuting 25'000 undocumented refugees into Canada in 6 short weeks? Or the security risks it can cause?
> And you think having safety concerns translates to disliking people from other countries? Have you considered speaking to someone medically about your phobia that everyone you encounter is a racist?


----------



## OldSolduer

opcougar said:
			
		

> What I understand is that the "concerns" go deep than just what happened in Paris. How is this different from what we've dome in the past i.e. bring in loads of undocumented people (refugees) from elsewhere? To think this doesn't have xenophobic underlying to it, is to think Santa is real



What? Santa isn't real? Oh man.....now you've done it.

Seriously, I don't have a problem with the refugees. I do have a problem with them not being properly screened.


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> What I understand is that the "concerns" go deep than just what happened in Paris. How is this different from what we've dome in the past i.e. bring in loads of undocumented people (refugees) from elsewhere? To think this doesn't have xenophobic underlying to it, is to think Santa is real



5000 refugees over 5-6 months vs 25'000 over 5-6 weeks.
The former didn't run the very real risk of terrorists being embedded in their ranks. Terrorists who have just murdered over 100 people less than a week ago with the promise of murdering even more.


----------



## opcougar

Even more stupid, is listening to Senator Ted Cruze (son of Mexican Immigrants), telling the president to only allow Christian Syrians into the US.  :


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> 5000 refugees over 5-6 months vs 25'000 over 5-6 weeks.
> The former didn't run the very real risk of terrorists being embedded in their ranks. Terrorists who have just murdered over 100 people less than a week ago with the promise of murdering even more.



More than that, they also brought down an air plane and blew up a bomb in Beirut to name but a few incident that happened in the past week.  

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/11/19/national/crime-legal/online-magazine-islamic-state-claims-killing-japanese-bangladesh/#.Vk0NgHarSUk



> In online magazine, Islamic State again claims killing of Japanese in Bangladesh
> NOV 19, 2015
> CAIRO –
> The Islamic State militant group again laid claim to the killing of a Japanese agricultural worker in northern Bangladesh in early October in their recently released online magazine.
> 
> Just after Kunio Hoshi, 66, was shot dead by unidentified assailants on his way to a farming project in the Rangpur district on Oct. 3, a group claiming to be an Islamic State cell said online that they were responsible for the killing.



Japan, the most pacifist of all nations isn't even immune to attacks from these guys.  I'm pro refugee but also think we should be fighting IS, rather than putting our tails firmly between our legs and running.


----------



## opcougar

...and I concur with you. But lets not kid ourselves that the issue here is only about "proper screening". I was at a place on Monday, and the utter garbage coming out of the mouth a guy standing beside me to his gf/wife about the Syrian migrants was despicable. A lot of born and bred Canadians don't even work or paid tangible amounts into the EI pot , and they somehow think they are better than hard working minority immigrants or refugees willing to do odd jobs to feed their families.

To the average Canadian, 25k refugees is going to have no impact on their standard of living. I mean if you are a high school dropout, no skills, menial job worker, how is a bunch of refugees scattered all over the country bound to affect you?  : People that have stuff going on for them in the lives don't complain, it's the ones with a lot of time on their hands with a sense of entitlement that vent / hold the xenophobic stance.



			
				Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> What? Santa isn't real? Oh man.....now you've done it.
> 
> Seriously, I don't have a problem with the refugees. *I do have a problem with them not being properly screened.*


----------



## opcougar

....and I'll subscribe to that! France has gone all out judging by the pics on NBC world news today, dropping ordnance like a boss on targets in Syria. 



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> More than that, they also brought down an air plane and blew up a bomb in Beirut to name but a few incident that happened in the past week.
> 
> http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/11/19/national/crime-legal/online-magazine-islamic-state-claims-killing-japanese-bangladesh/#.Vk0NgHarSUk
> 
> Japan, the most pacifist of all nations isn't even immune to attacks from these guys.  *I'm pro refugee but also think we should be fighting IS, rather than putting our tails firmly between our legs and running.*


----------



## The Bread Guy

opcougar said:
			
		

> Even more stupid, is listening to Senator Ted Cruz (born in Canada, son of Mexican Immigrants a Cuban father and American mother), telling the president to only allow Christian Syrians into the US.  :


FTFY  ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> it's the ones with *a lot of time on their hands* with a sense of entitlement that vent / hold the xenophobic stance.



Speaking of which, think this would look good on the door to my room?


----------



## Jed

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> What? Santa isn't real? Oh man.....now you've done it.
> 
> Seriously, I don't have a problem with the refugees. I do have a problem with them not being properly screened.



I concur. What is with these people that don't understand this obvious point?


----------



## cavalryman

Jed said:
			
		

> I concur. What is with these people that don't understand this obvious point?


Because any perceived deviation from the narrative is considered heresy and must be denied, shouted down and eliminated.  SJWs in action.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

opcougar said:
			
		

> ...and I concur with you. But lets not kid ourselves that the issue here is only about "proper screening". I was at a place on Monday, and the utter garbage coming out of the mouth a guy standing beside me to his gf/wife about the Syrian migrants was despicable. A lot of born and bred Canadians don't even work or paid tangible amounts into the EI pot , and they somehow think they are better than hard working minority immigrants or refugees willing to do odd jobs to feed their families.
> 
> To the average Canadian, 25k refugees is going to have no impact on their standard of living. I mean if you are a high school dropout, no skills, menial job worker, how is a bunch of refugees scattered all over the country bound to affect you?  : People that have stuff going on for them in the lives don't complain, it's the ones with a lot of time on their hands with a sense of entitlement that vent / hold the xenophobic stance.



Really, your defence is to just say a lot of Canadians don't work so they're opinions don't matter? For the record, I am employed, have a masters degree, and still believe that bringing in refugees with no vetting is ill considered. What percentage of Sunni/Shia/allawite are we bringing? Christians? How do we ensure were not allowing anti-Semites in (since Syria supported Hezbollah)? What about women/children who have PTSD from their war? Do we only bring educated middle class people who have trades? How do we decide which 25,000 meet our still undetermined criteria? First 25,000 in line? 

Calling people xenophobic is immature... Grow up Peter Pan

PS- I'm confused by your comments. Your comments about poor people seem as prejudiced as those that you are against. So do you hate the poor then? Just albertans? One guy was prejudiced so clearly anyone with a bad job or who didn't finish high school doesn't meet your clearly high academic standards.

Finally, if you want to find self entitled people with a lot of times on their hands go hang out in any university in Canada... The liberal hotbeds of contrived outrage


----------



## Blake Castelein

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153213901157217&id=228735667216&ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_activity

A moving response from the family of one of the victims (apologies if the link does not work)

PS sorry for intruding on the debate ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, think this would look good on the door to my room?



Isn't that being racist against xenos?


----------



## cupper

opcougar said:
			
		

> Even more stupid, is listening to Senator Ted Cruze (son of Mexican Immigrants), telling the president to only allow Christian Syrians into the US.  :



Ummm, Cruze's father is Cuban and his mother is American.

Or did we sleep though that whole giving up his Canadian citizenship debacle?

But I agree, it is more stupid. Especially when you consider Cruze is supposedly a Constitutional scholar and should know that his suggestion violates the establishment clause. :facepalm:

Almost as bad as the number of Governors who are looking for legislative ways to keep refugees from coming to their states.

Is it any wonder why people are cynical about the people they elect to office when they spend all of their time pandering to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## tomahawk6

Cupper at the moment a majority of Americans do not favor taking Syrian refugee's.The Governors that are opposed are Republicans,so the Governors are reflecting the mood of the public.This refugee issue will work against the Democrats as we enter the election cycle.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

opcougar said:
			
		

> Even more stupid, is listening to Senator Ted Cruze (son of Mexican Immigrants), telling the president to only allow Christian Syrians into the US.  :



I see that you're applying the same amount of research and fact checking to Mr Cruze as you do to the rest of your opinions.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Isn't that being racist against xenos?



What do people have against "Xenos"?  (see the nametag)


----------



## George Wallace

Jed said:
			
		

> I concur. What is with these people that don't understand this obvious point?



Well.  For one, they don't want to have security checks done on them.  Is it arrogance?  Is it something they want to hide?  Whatever, it is, they somehow feel they are above us, and we should welcome their likes with open arms; ......and we are "RACISTS" if we don't.    :


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> An intriguing Canadian angle on the ISIS claim of responsibility ....
> 
> A _National Post_ reporter says a Canadian pro-ISIS Tweeter shared this audio (links to non-terrorist page) recorded in English that this Dalhousie post-doc Fellow says is in a Canadian accent.
> 
> Keep posting & podcasting, guys - if _I_ can find this ....


The Mounties are following up on this ....


> The RCMP is examining whether the voice on an audio recording attributed to ISIS and released in the wake of the Paris attacks belongs to a Canadian.
> 
> ISIS released audio statements in English and Arabic on Saturday, claiming responsibility for the co-ordinated Paris attacks Friday that claimed 129 lives.
> 
> Const. Annie Delisle, a spokeswoman for the RCMP, confirmed to CBC News on Wednesday that the police force is aware of media reports about the apparently Canadian voice, "and are following up."
> 
> On Monday, CBC News asked three linguistics specialists to analyze the recording, and all said the voice has some distinctly Canadian speech patterns.
> 
> Security experts and the linguists say the voice on the audio recording has telltale inflections and characteristics of Canadian English.
> 
> "The fellow on it sounded to me like he was … Canadian, and probably specifically from Ontario," Erik Thomas, a linguistics professor at the University of North Carolina, told CBC News.
> 
> Thomas, a specialist in dialect variations, has analyzed the ISIS recording and says he is 80 per cent sure the speaker is Canadian.
> 
> "There's a number of things that point toward Canada. His 'o' sounded more like 'oww,' which is typical of Canada," said Thomas. And also the word 'out'... he said like a Canadian, not 'owt.'"
> 
> Thomas said the speaker also had a feature known as Canadian raising in the way he pronounced words such as "vice." ....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Really, your defence is to just say a lot of Canadians don't work so they're opinions don't matter?



Yup. Everyone is a racist xenophobe but it's perfectly fine to discriminate against people according to their economic status or level of education.


----------



## Tuan

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Here's a bunch of further reading for those of you interested in analysis beyond CNN/CBC et al.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-nJ60drWc
> 
> http://www.salon.com/2015/11/15/lets_not_get_it_wrong_this_time_the_terrorists_won_after_911_because_we_chose_to_invade_iraq_shred_our_constitution/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
> 
> http://www.thenation.com/article/the-saudis-are-stumbling-they-may-take-the-middle-east-with-them/
> 
> This clip of Putin is very interesting. Of course he has his own interests to pursue, but he is spot on when it comes to who is funding ISIS.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQuceU3x2Ww&feature=youtu.be
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq



Thank you for these useful links Kilo. They are food for thought!


----------



## Kirkhill

cupper said:
			
		

> ...
> Is it any wonder why people are cynical about the people they elect to office when they spend all of their time pandering to the lowest common denominator.



Pandering to the lowest common denominator?  Or representing the wishes of the majority - seeing as how it is a democracy and all.

I believe that cynicism is bred when people ask for advice (from their electors) and then do as they choose regardless of the advice.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Spot on.  Exactly.


----------



## opcougar

Pardon me, but isn't the feeling of "being above someone" synonymous with being part of the majority and having some form of power? We all know that racists don't like people of other colours, and think in their warped minds that they are superior somehow because they are White....always found this laughable really considering every race has illiterates, scammers, thieves, despicable, unhygienic, etc types



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well.  For one, they don't want to have security checks done on them.  Is it arrogance?  Is it something they want to hide?  Whatever, it is, *they somehow feel they are above us*, and we should welcome their likes with open arms; ......and we are "RACISTS" if we don't.    :


----------



## Fishbone Jones

opcougar said:
			
		

> Pardon me, but isn't the feeling of "being above someone" synonymous with being part of the majority and having some form of power? We all know that racists don't like people of other colours, and think in their warped minds that they are superior somehow because they are White....always found this laughable really considering every race has illiterates, scammers, thieves, despicable, unhygienic, etc types



Your own racist sentiments don't belong here. You need a time out to reflect on your passive\ aggressive notions of what racist and xenophobic mean on these fora.

---Staff---


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> What do people have against "Xenos"?  (see the nametag)



I have NO idea!  He looks like a nice fellow  ;D.  What a bunch of racists!!    rly:


----------



## daftandbarmy

A good heads up for democracies....

Congress Needs to Debate the War on ISIS

The U.S. has been escalating the fight in the Middle East without congressional approval, but the Korean War shows why that’s a dangerous way to proceed.

In the late summer of 1950, the United States made a momentous choice—one that, in the end, may have transformed a prospective military and diplomatic triumph into disaster.

The choice was made during what is now often called “the forgotten war”—the three-year conflict in Korea at the outset of the Cold War. But the fall of 1950 has an urgent lesson to teach the U.S. today, as it faces a mounting crisis over the threat of the Islamic State in the Middle East and now in Europe. Choices the U.S. makes, or don’t make, now can have profound effects later.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/isis-aumf-kore/416556/


----------



## The Bread Guy

Riiiiiiiiiight -- France let this happen so NATO'll have an excuse to barge into Syria ....


> .... Paris views the events of last Friday as justification sufficient to proceed militarily in Syria. A large part of the French citizenry, as well as most of the western countries too, would be in accord with that. This is a justification, a wrong one of course, but nonetheless “acceptable” to many, which NATO didn't have until now. The tide seems to have swung more towards pro-war, respectively pro-war involvement.
> 
> Once again, nobody seems to want to recognize the relationships which are so obvious. It appears that Syria, which has the help of Russia, is about to dramatically weaken IS, if not beat them back. NATO members were missing the reason to become active in Syria themselves and thus clip Russia's ever increasing weight to an acceptable “size”. In the eyes of NATO and western governments, the attacks seem to have provided this reason. NATO virtually received the excuse to attack Syria. Something that the toxic gas attacks did not achieve is that they were carried out by one’s own side, then they were blamed on Assad by the West.
> 
> With the direct intervention by France and the U.S. (to be followed shortly by other countries, like Britain or Belgium), as much as it pains me to write this, the Third World War has started ....


 :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## Jarnhamar

Here's a classy move from Turkey.  Booing a moment of silence for the Paris attack victims during a soccer game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9bMYcmUFg


----------



## BurnDoctor

Re: the above post: 'splain to me why Turkey is still in NATO? After the last couple of years of frankly being a hindrance rather than a help in dealing with ISIS (porous border, anti-Kurd activities, perhaps facilitating sale of black-market ISIS oil), their increasingly less and less secular government, and now this, public celebration, essentially, of the Paris attacks, they just don't seem like folks we oughta be friends with.  They certainly don't seem to share the rest of NATO's worldview.

Kinda like how I don't think we should sell LAVs to a horrible human rights violator like Saudi Arabia, or call Pakistan our friend while they support the Taliban. I do, to a certain extent, understand the political motives that make these things so, but sheesh, the world's a complicated place. So much simpler when your friends are your friends, and your enemies are your enemies.


----------



## a_majoor

A prediction. Given the growing size and strength of the nativist movement in Europe, something like this could spell the end of the EU and the start of a horrifying "Reconquista" in Europe as nationalists unite to drive out first the migrants and then anyone else who isn't "from there". Since Europeans are _already_ busy burning down refugee centres it isn't too difficult to see them taking up arms when they see the situation becomes even more dire. (Note, while the scenario seems sound, reading the rest of the post is going to be rather head spinning :

https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/bracken-tet-take-two-islams-2016-european-offensive/



> The hard core of the battle-hardened jihadists now fanning out across Europe understands the tried-and-true process of igniting a civil war through terror. They will calculate that the European military and police cannot and will not sustain the battle against an unceasing campaign of terrorism. Brussels cannot remain on virtual lockdown forever without its economy being wrecked. What will happen when a Paris-type attack, or worse, is a daily event in a dozen European cities?
> 
> As I mentioned above, just the other day in northern Italy eight hundred combat-style pistol-grip shotguns were discovered in a truck on their way from Turkey to Belgium. Do the math. The Paris attacks were carried out by approximately eight jihadists armed with Kalashnikovs, shotguns and TATP suicide vests (which can be manufactured anywhere there is a kitchen). Now imagine a “Super Tet Offensive,” with every type of target on the hit list from airports to zoological parks, each being assaulted by an eight-man squad of such killers. Some attacks smaller, some larger, from pairs to platoons in strength.
> 
> Today, perhaps only a few short months prior to Tet 2016, there is no Islamic high command located in Europe or elsewhere in charge of planning specific terror operations. There is no OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, the supreme command of the German Nazi armed forces) planning an Islamic Operation Barbarossa. Hence, there is no command and control structure for Western intelligence to penetrate and disrupt.
> 
> Instead of a central brain directing many hands, think of a vast swarm of stinging jellyfish, all moving in loose formation, with the same generalized attack plan in their collective hive-mind. At the end of 2015, individual muhajirs may have only a basic awareness that they are heading to Europe to conduct a great jihad. As D-Day draws nearer, coded messages will proliferate with cryptic references to portentous events from Islamic history. “Get ready, and prepare to conduct major operations” will be the thrust of the online chatter and encrypted wireless messages. In each European city, targets will be individually scouted by local mujahirs in anticipation of a general outbreak of jihad terror attacks.
> 
> How many mosques have already received a truckload of shotguns or Kalashnikovs? Run the numbers again: eight jihadists per terror attack, eight hundred weapons per truck, 80,000 Viet Cong fighters in the original Tet Offensive, and an estimated 800,000 muhajirs flooding into Europe. Using radical mosques as clandestine armories is S.O.P in the Middle East, so why would the jihadists not use the same tactics in safe and docile Europe? Out of a sense of fairness and respect for European laws? Please. In the words of Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan, “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers…” And bear in mind that anyplace an AK-47 can be smuggled, so too can a few kilos of Semtex.
> 
> Imagine a dozen or even a score of Beslan-type school sieges, all happening at the same time, across that number of European cities. Initially, the first string of major surprise attacks will be coordinated by the most well-organized terror networks using currently unbreakable wireless encryption. Many of the attacks will involve numerous captured hostages, often children, with impossible demands being made to guarantee their safety. Or no demands will be made; just rape and slaughter will ensue, as in the Russian Beslan example. This outbreak of major attacks will be the signal for the general jihad offensive to begin.
> 
> The Beslan Massacre happened in 2004 at the hands of yet another killer gang of aggrieved Islamists. Two squads of Chechen Muslim terrorists arrived on the first day of school in a Russian town, using false police vans as camouflage. They took a thousand young hostages and held them for three days. The Muslim terrorists murdered over four hundred innocents, often after rape and torture. Now, imagine twenty ongoing European Beslans, with simultaneous infrastructure and “soft-target” (people) attacks happening everywhere in between.
> 
> What Hitler’s Nazis accomplished with Stukas and Tigers and motorized divisions, the Islamonazis will attempt to accomplish by a massive “Tet Offensive on steroids,” overwhelming and stunning the European meta-system into immediate paralysis and first psychological, then material defeat. At least, that is the outcome that the Islamonozis will be striving to achieve. The 1968 Tet infiltration and mass-attack strategy didn’t succeed in Vietnam, and maybe it won’t work in Europe, either. It’s more likely that the hoped-for general uprising by all European Muslims against the kafirs will not be triggered, and it may simply stall and sputter out.
> 
> In strategic terms, if nothing else, the 2016 jihad offensive and subsequent civil war in Europe will open up a second major front in the war against the Islamic State, causing NATO and the West to turn their attention inward toward their own survival, and thereby take pressure off the other theaters of war in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> And for the Europeans to win the coming civil war, they will have to be at least half as brutally ugly as their Muslim invaders, and that means pretty damn brutally ugly. But while the jihadists will be operating at maximum brutality from day one, the placid and polite European authorities will be starting from far behind in that department. For example: a standard jihadist tactic is to flee from a terror attack straight back into the embrace of their co-religionists in the Sharia-zone ghettos, and hide behind their women and children. Then what will the authorities do? Go in and try to arrest them? (Just joking.) Wait for their next excursion with more terror bombs? Or gut the entire suspected block with shell fire? This is what I mean by damn ugly. The French reaction to the Paris attacks gives a hint of how this phase will run.
> 
> Best case scenario, and I don’t see this as likely: the 2016 Islamic Tet attackers will be wiped out the way the Viet Cong were in 1968. But if there are enough simultaneous attacks, in total numbers involving anywhere near the 80,000 or so fighters of the Vietnamese Tet, I can’t see how the present European forces can defeat the jihadists in less than a month, if at all. By very simple math, that number of jihadists means ten thousand Paris-level attacks. Think about that. Ten thousand Paris level attacks! All taking place in the same month, the same week, even on the same day, right across Europe. The politically-correct and overly polite European policemen (and even their militaries, at first) won’t be up to mounting successful counterattacks and rescue operations against a score of Beslans happening in schools, hospitals and concert halls. Not while at the same time, airports, train stations, power plants and other targets are being hit by Paris-sized terror squads right across Europe.


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## Altair

Isil doesn't even have 80 000 men at arms in Iraq and Syria. 

Not to mention most of these attacks are committed by home grown terrorists. ..


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## daftandbarmy

BurnDoctor said:
			
		

> Re: the above post: 'splain to me why Turkey is still in NATO? After the last couple of years of frankly being a hindrance rather than a help in dealing with ISIS (porous border, anti-Kurd activities, perhaps facilitating sale of black-market ISIS oil), their increasingly less and less secular government, and now this, public celebration, essentially, of the Paris attacks, they just don't seem like folks we oughta be friends with.  They certainly don't seem to share the rest of NATO's worldview.
> 
> Kinda like how I don't think we should sell LAVs to a horrible human rights violator like Saudi Arabia, or call Pakistan our friend while they support the Taliban. I do, to a certain extent, understand the political motives that make these things so, but sheesh, the world's a complicated place. So much simpler when your friends are your friends, and your enemies are your enemies.




"Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.” 


 Lord Palmerston


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## Journeyman

Thucydides said:
			
		

> ....reading the rest of the post is going to be rather head spinning...


  :  Yet you chose to post it, which sadly (given your track-record of well-argued posts [regardless of my agreement] ), really detracts on the credibility scale. Sorry.


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## Jarnhamar

BurnDoctor said:
			
		

> Re: the above post: 'splain to me why Turkey is still in NATO?



We're too much of a coward to kick them out?

We have a fellow NATO country that is buying millions of dollars of oil a every month from ISIS. That's pretty messed up.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We're too much of a coward to kick them out?
> 
> We have a fellow NATO country that is buying millions of dollars of oil a every month from ISIS. That's pretty messed up.



The Turks are "Useful Idiots"


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## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We have a fellow NATO country that is buying millions of dollars of oil a every month from ISIS. That's pretty messed up.


With another NATO ally selling them down the river, too  ;D
_*"Greek Defense Ministry confirms Russian Su-24M bomber was downed in Syrian airspace* -- Asked which side Greece should take, as a NATO member, Greek Minister of National Defense Panos Kammenos said - "the truth" ...."_


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## a_majoor

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :  Yet you chose to post it, which sadly (given your track-record of well-argued posts [regardless of my agreement] ), really detracts on the credibility scale. Sorry.



Which is why I chose to only post the exerpt, which is mostly grounded in well understood 4GW principles. Sometimes you have to sift through a lot of chaff to get the kernel of wheat....


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## jollyjacktar

Thucydides said:
			
		

> A prediction. Given the growing size and strength of the nativist movement in Europe, something like this could spell the end of the EU and the start of a horrifying "Reconquista" in Europe as nationalists unite to drive out first the migrants and then anyone else who isn't "from there". Since Europeans are _already_ busy burning down refugee centres it isn't too difficult to see them taking up arms when they see the situation becomes even more dire. (Note, while the scenario seems sound, reading the rest of the post is going to be rather head spinning :
> 
> https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/bracken-tet-take-two-islams-2016-european-offensive/



Even if he's partially correct in his fears and theories, it's terrifying to contemplate.


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## The Bread Guy

Back to the Paris attack specifically, here's what appears to be a U.S. government report on the attack, _"DHS-FBI-NCTC Bulletin: Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures Used in November 2015 Paris Attacks"_ (source) - from the report:


> This Joint Intelligence Bulletin (JIB) is intended to provide a review of the tactics, techniques, and procedures demonstrated by the perpetrators of the 13 November 2015 attacks in Paris, France. This JIB does not provide analysis of any follow-on operations or operations occurring in Europe in the wake of the attacks. It relies on a variety of open source and media reporting for the analysis, which could change as official details of the post-incident investigations come to light. This JIB is intended to support the activities of DHS, FBI and NCTC to assist federal, state, and local government counterterrorism and law enforcement officials, first responders, and private-sector security partners in effectively deterring, preventing, preempting, or responding to terrorist attacks against the United States. Information in this JIB is current as of 23 November 2015 ...


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## mariomike

I was reading about patient care at the Paris attacks compared to the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing. The North American model is often called "scoop and run". The French model is referred to as "stay and play."


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## The Bread Guy

mariomike said:
			
		

> I was reading about patient care at the Paris attacks compared to the 2013 Boston Marathon bombing. The North American model is often called "scoop and run". The French model is referred to as "stay and play."


IIRC, this is likely possible in France because there's an MD in at least some ambulances.


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## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> IIRC, this is likely possible in France because there's an MD in at least some ambulances.



That is my understanding as well. 

"The French philosophy on emergency medical care is to provide a higher level of care at the scene of the incident, and so SMUR (Service Mobile d'Urgence et Reanimation) units are staffed by a qualified physician along with a nurse and/or emergency medical technician. This contrasts with systems in other parts of the world, notably the Anglo-Saxon countries (United Kingdom, United States, Australia etc.) where care on scene is conducted primarily by paramedics or emergency medical technicians, with physicians only becoming involved on scene at the most complex or large scale incidents.

The result is that a SMUR unit will typically spend a long time on scene compared with a paramedic ambulance in a different system, as the physician may conduct a full set of observations, examinations and interventions before removal to hospital. This feature is often contrasted the British or American system, especially in high profile incidents, such as the death of Diana, Princess of Wales in Paris, where the nearly 2 hour delay before arrival at hospital has been ascribed by some as a major contributory factor in her death."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_medical_services_in_France#SMUR

If that accident had occurred in Toronto, rather than Paris, she would likely have been inside a Level 1 Trauma Centre within 30 minutes. 

Not to say one system is better than the other, just different.


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## McG

Another suspect was arrested in Belgium on Tuesday.

Paris attacks: Belgian police arrest ninth suspect
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35174761


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## mariomike

From the FDNY Center for Terrorism and Disaster Preparedness,
Paris Terror Attack:
https://info.publicintelligence.net/FDNY-ParisAttacks.pdf

They discuss "Doomed Captives" - "Not Hostages”.
Media reported 60-100 hostages at the Bataclan
No demands were made
A true hostage situation would have involved demands
In reality, there were no “hostages” – only “doomed captives” whose only hope for survival hinged on escape or rescue
Captives used to prolong attack, maximizing media coverage
Attackers planned to kill captives from the start

"The new “spectacular” standard – now conducted in the West"

“Paris-style” = “Mumbai-style”

Suicide Bomber as Secondary Device

Potential Role of Fire and Smoke
"If employed as in Mumbai, fire and smoke as a weapon (FSW) would have greatly complicated the response scenario."
"Possible scenario: burning building with hundreds trapped inside"

Targeted first responders 

They discuss the school attack in Russia back in 2004 where over 150 hostages were killed.

Coordinated Medical Response
I believe the question of "surge capacity" for a Mass Casualty Incident ( MCI ) is a very real concern.


----------



## McG

The Belgians have now reached ten suspects arrested for the Paris attack.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/10th-suspect-arrested-in-belgium-in-paris-attacks-probe-1.2719130


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## jollyjacktar

The "mastermind" behind the terrorist incident in Paris has been arrested in Brussels.  (shame he survived the arrest)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/belgium-brussels-police-raid-1.3497637


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## PuckChaser

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The "mastermind" behind the terrorist incident in Paris has been arrested in Brussels.  (shame he survived the arrest)



I think its perfect he survived the arrest. He would want to be a martyr. Lets take that away. Long, long life in prison with very little contact to the outside world.


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## jollyjacktar

It is a shame the French don't still have Devil's Island in operation if he must remain alive.


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## Retired AF Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The "mastermind" behind the terrorist incident in Paris has been arrested in Brussels.  (shame he survived the arrest)
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/belgium-brussels-police-raid-1.3497637



On the other hand, he may end up being a good source of information/ intelligence.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> On the other hand, he may end up being a good source of information/ intelligence.



On one level I understand,  however,  on another level I want to see him sewn into a large Boar's carcus and buried alive. And that level is the stronger one.


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## mariomike

March 27, 2016

Paris offers free first aid training to the public so they are better prepared for possible terror attacks.
The measure creating the sessions was approved by the Paris city council in December in the wake of the Nov. 13 attacks that killed 130 people.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/aid-training-paris-terror-attack-preparation-article-1.2578955


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:
			
		

> March 27, 2016
> 
> Paris offers free first aid training to the public so they are better prepared for possible terror attacks.
> The measure creating the sessions was approved by the Paris city council in December in the wake of the Nov. 13 attacks that killed 130 people.
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/aid-training-paris-terror-attack-preparation-article-1.2578955



Good idea even if there wasn't an elevated terror threat.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> On one level I understand,  however,  on another level I want to see him sewn into a large Boar's carcus and buried alive with hot coals so he cooks to death before asphyxiation*. And that level is the stronger one.



*I completely agree


----------



## jollyjacktar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> *I completely agree



I didn't realize you also give cooking classes as well.


----------



## Loachman

"First Aid" is too narrowly-defined as the application of simple medical techniques by average citizens with the intention of keeping an injured person alive until properly-trained and equipped medical responders arrive to take over.

That definition needs to be expanded to include ALL potential techniques that can be employed by ordinary citizens during a terrorist (or criminal) attack to keep people alive until properly-trained and equipped responders arrive to take over.

To that end, governments should provide defensive firearms training to interested and worthy citizens, approval for concealed carry once properly screened and trained, and tax incentives for the purchase of suitable defensive firearms, ammunition, ancillary equipment, and range memberships.

Requiring people to remain defenceless in the face of potential attack is immoral.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Loachman said:
			
		

> "First Aid" is too narrowly-defined as the application of simple medical techniques by average citizens with the intention of keeping an injured person alive until properly-trained and equipped medical responders arrive to take over.
> 
> That definition needs to be expanded to include ALL potential techniques that can be employed by ordinary citizens during a terrorist (or criminal) attack to keep people alive until properly-trained and equipped responders arrive to take over.
> 
> To that end, governments should provide defensive firearms training to interested and worthy citizens, approval for concealed carry once properly screened and trained, and tax incentives for the purchase of suitable defensive firearms, ammunition, ancillary equipment, and range memberships.
> 
> Requiring people to remain defenceless in the face of potential attack is immoral.



More effective legislation empowering the police to detain and search suspects, and gather intelligence through various means, is way better, and less likely unfortunately.


----------



## jollyjacktar

The caught the last barbarian shithead from the attacks today in Brussels.  Too bad they could not have at least shot the asshole in the leg too like the other one.  He deserves at least that much. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3530186/Paris-attacks-suspect-Mohamed-Abrini-arrested.html


----------



## daftandbarmy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The caught the last barbarian shithead from the attacks today in Brussels.  Too bad they could not have at least shot the ******* in the leg too like the other one.  He deserves at least that much.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3530186/Paris-attacks-suspect-Mohamed-Abrini-arrested.html



Who said he's the last? 

Based on how terror networks usually operate, there are probably a couple of dozen roaming about that they don't even know about.


----------



## jollyjacktar

He was the buddy of Abdelsalem (sp?) and the last on their most wanted list of shitheads left from November.  So they're reporting.


----------



## muskrat89

Wasn't sure where to post this, but seems pertinent. Not sure how much more motivation the west needs to take a different tack with these folks...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/15/french-lawmakers-told-bataclan-terrorists-tortured-disemboweled-victims.html

Castrated, decapitated, eyes gouged out, genital stabbing, you name it. Oh - and filmed for the ISIS propaganda department


----------



## George Wallace

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> Wasn't sure where to post this, but seems pertinent. Not sure how much more motivation the west needs to take a different tack with these folks...
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/15/french-lawmakers-told-bataclan-terrorists-tortured-disemboweled-victims.html
> 
> Castrated, decapitated, eyes gouged out, genital stabbing, you name it. Oh - and filmed for the ISIS propaganda department



Another source:  http://heatst.com/uk/exclusive-france-suppressed-news-of-gruesome-torture-at-bataclan-massacre/


----------



## The Bread Guy

Just moving these latest bits into the thread already in play on those attacks - thanks for the critical new bits.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumping almost-necro-thread with the latest ....


> The main suspect in a jihadist rampage that killed 130 people across Paris described himself defiantly as "an Islamic State soldier" and shouted at the top judge on Wednesday at the start of a trial into the 2015 attacks.
> 
> Salah Abdeslam, 31, is believed to be the only surviving member of the group that carried out the gun-and-bomb attacks on six restaurants and bars, the Bataclan concert hall and a sports stadium on Nov. 13, 2015, in which hundreds were injured.
> 
> He appeared in court dressed in black and wearing a black face mask. Asked his profession, the French-Moroccan removed his mask and told the Paris court: "I gave up my job to become an Islamic State soldier."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sketch shows key defendant Salah Abdeslam, right, and Mohammed Abrini in the special courtroom built for the 2015 attacks trial, Wednesday, Sept. 8, 2021 in Paris. France began the trial of 20 men accused in the Islamic State group's 2015 attacks on Paris that left 130 people dead and hundreds injured. Among the plantiffs are nearly 1,800 victims, including survivors who suffered physical or psychological harm and families whose loved ones died that night. A total of 330 lawyers are representing them and the defendants. (AP Photo/Noelle Herrenschmidt)
> 
> 
> While the other defendants, who are accused of providing guns, cars or helping plan the attacks, simply answered routine questions on their name and profession and otherwise remained quiet, Abdeslam clearly sought to use the start of the trial as a platform ...


----------



## OldSolduer

The only kind of platform he needs is about 15 feet high. With a trap door. ya know?


----------



## dimsum

OldSolduer said:


> The only kind of platform he needs is about 15 feet high. With a trap door. ya know?


To be more historically accurate for that country, a platform with a gravity-powered ending of the bladed kind.


----------



## OldSolduer

dimsum said:


> To be more historically accurate for that country, a platform with a gravity-powered ending of the bladed kind.


That was my first thought as well. I like it.


----------

