# Gen Vance announces retirement



## Remius (23 Jul 2020)

No link yet.  Just saw it on the news.  

social media apparently has it.


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## stellarpanther (23 Jul 2020)

Breaking news is that Gen Vance is retiring.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vance-retiring-chief-of-the-defence-staff-1.5660106


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## Good2Golf (23 Jul 2020)

Link: Gen. Jonathan Vance, chief of the defence staff, announces retirement



> After five years, Vance is one of the longest serving defence chiefs in the country's history Gen. Jonathan Vance, the country's top military commander, has announced his retirement.
> 
> A letter informing the troops of his planned departure was posted on social media Thursday. It says that he's informed the Governor General, the prime minister and the defence minister of his decision "to relinquish command of the Canadian Armed Forces in the months to come."
> 
> ...


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## PuckChaser (23 Jul 2020)

There goes the pool on Rouleau being the next CDS, unless the PM wants to keep that revolving door going and setting a new record for shortest stay in the position...


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## dapaterson (23 Jul 2020)

Well, LGen Eyre was 66? days in the chair as CMP, so there is ample recent precedence.

There's also a CANFORGEN just out on the street naming CPO1 Gregoire as the CAF Chief.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There goes the pool on Rouleau being the next CDS, unless the PM wants to keep that revolving door going and setting a new record for shortest stay in the position...



A/CDS Gen (WSE) Rouleau?  If he does a good job for the PM it becomes substantive. Screw it up and he's  back to VCDS.


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## Old Sweat (23 Jul 2020)

I am not going to speculate, other than to note that nothing very much will surprise me. 

A bit of a quick search found that General Boyle went from BGen to CDS in two-and-a-half years, and then resigned after about ten months in the chair. Admiral Anderson also had a short run as CDS.


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## PuckChaser (23 Jul 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> A/CDS Gen (WSE) Rouleau?  If he does a good job for the PM it becomes substantive. Screw it up and he's  back to VCDS.



To be honest I don't see Rouleau wanting the job right now. Cuts are coming. Deep cuts are coming. Probably the reason why Vance pulled pin, just couldn't handle being the face of of government policy anymore after watching the Cabinet throw the public service under the bus. Something had to happen here for him to announce retirement this late in the posting season...

Rouleau's probably content waiting 2-3 years for either a new PM or new party in power.

That being said, will the current Comd RCAF become the front runner? He's been Comd RCAF for 2 years already, the other L1s have only been in position for a year. Comd CJOC and VCDS are new in their jobs. CMP is in the same boat as the L1 Comds. Most of the other LGen/VAdms are going to new OUTCAN positions like NATO or NORAD so it really cuts down the list of available candidates.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2020)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> A bit of a quick search found that General Boyle went from BGen to CDS in two-and-a-half years, and then resigned after about ten months in the chair. Admiral Anderson also had a short run as CDS.



VAdm Murray, who succeeded Gen Boyle was A/CDS for just over 11 months.


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## medicineman (23 Jul 2020)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> A bit of a quick search found that General Boyle went from BGen to CDS in two-and-a-half years, and then resigned after about ten months in the chair. Admiral Anderson also had a short run as CDS.





			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> VAdm Murray, who succeeded Gen Boyle was A/CDS for just over 11 months.



I seem to recall that in those days, being CDS was much like being Base Duty Cpl for me...and it very well could have been Cpl CDS me by default if I'd been posted in Ottawa in those days since nobody in their right minds wanted the job.

MM


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## The Bread Guy (23 Jul 2020)

From the horse's mouth/Twitter feed attached ...


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## Good2Golf (23 Jul 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> To be honest I don't see Rouleau wanting the job right now. Cuts are coming. Deep cuts are coming. Probably the reason why Vance pulled pin, just couldn't handle being the face of of government policy anymore after watching the Cabinet throw the public service under the bus. Something had to happen here for him to announce retirement this late in the posting season...
> 
> Rouleau's probably content waiting 2-3 years for either a new PM or new party in power.
> 
> That being said, will the current Comd RCAF become the front runner? He's been Comd RCAF for 2 years already, the other L1s have only been in position for a year. Comd CJOC and VCDS are new in their jobs. CMP is in the same boat as the L1 Comds. Most of the other LGen/VAdms are going to new OUTCAN positions like NATO or NORAD so it really cuts down the list of available candidates.



Remember, selection isn’t limited just to LGens.  Technically any General Officer could be appointed. 

Don’t know for sure...could be amongst the following four or five, IMO.

LGen Mike Rouleau - VCDS
LGen Wayne Eyre - Comd CA
LGen Al Meinzinger - Comd RCAF
MGen Jennie Carignan - Comd NATO Mission Iraq
MGen Frances Allen - Deputy VCDS

Not sure we’ll formally hear about who’s being considered. 

Regards
G2G


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> MGen Jennie Carignan - Comd NATO Mission Iraq



A female CDS could be the PM's way to show he has "learned" from the JWR/Philpot debacle.


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## ballz (23 Jul 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> A female CDS could be the PM's way to show he has "learned" from the JWR/Philpot debacle.



I'm sure some people would eat that up, but I wouldn't say he's learned until he actually listens to her... you think if she doesn't play nice he'll pull her into his office and try to shout her down like he did with Celina Caesar-Chavannes?


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2020)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm sure some people would eat that up, but I wouldn't say he's learned until he actually listens to her... you think if she doesn't play nice he'll pull her into his office and try to shout her down like he did with Celina Caesar-Chavannes?


The PM says that he and Caesar-Chavannes saw things differently. I doubt shouting down "CDS" Carignan would be well received.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jul 2020)

General Vance was probably fed up with what he was seeing out of the PMO and pulled pin.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Jul 2020)

I had read in an article today that our government refused nominating Vance for some big NATO position recently.


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## stellarpanther (23 Jul 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> General Vance was probably fed up with what he was seeing out of the PMO and pulled pin.



Or with all the COVID going around, he decided that after 39 years in the army, he and his wife are going to retire to someplace less hectic than Ottawa.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2020)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I had read in an article today that our government refused nominating Vance for some big NATO position recently.


That was part of the CBC article posted above.  The Liberal government refused to put his name forward for the position of Chairman of the NATO Military Committee.  That post was last held by a Canadian when Gen Ray Henault was in the chair.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> General Vance was probably fed up with what he was seeing out of the PMO and pulled pin.


 By refusing to nominate him for the NMC, the PMO clearly wanted him gone and out of uniform.  In that case, his departure may not have been entirely voluntary.


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## brihard (23 Jul 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> A female CDS could be the PM's way to show he has "learned" from the JWR/Philpot debacle.



There’s a PMJT precedent for a similar ‘deep dip’ a rank farther down that normal- Brenda Lucki.


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## Good2Golf (23 Jul 2020)

For double score, keep Allen as the NATO MC CANMILREP and appoint Carignan as CDS.


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## dapaterson (23 Jul 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> That was part of the CBC article posted above.  The Liberal government refused to put his name forward for the position of Chairman of the NATO Military Committee.  That post was last held by a Canadian when Gen Ray Henault was in the chair.
> By refusing to nominate him for the NMC, the PMO clearly wanted him gone and out of uniform.  In that case, his departure may not have been entirely voluntary.



There are multiple reasons not to nominate.  Indications from NATO that someone else is already favoured is one; recent failure to get a UN security council seat could also influence such a decision - you don't want two strikes from international bodies in rapid succession.

I suspect there were multiple factors at play, and no one here likely knows them.  And if they do, I strongly doubt they'd be posting them online.


(That's what twitter DMs to the media to arrange coffee at the Bridgehead in the Rideau Centre are for).


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jul 2020)

[quote author=Haggis] By refusing to nominate him for the NMC, the PMO clearly wanted him gone and out of uniform.  In that case, his departure may not have been entirely voluntary.
[/quote]

Considering how much Canada spent on trying to get a UN seat it's surprising to say the least we weren't frothing at the mouth to land that spot.


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2020)

Maybe our current Governor General will ask for the post?   8)


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jul 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Maybe our current Governor General will ask for the post?   8)



Spurred on by the Navy's _seman name change_ vote popularity maybe we'll see something similar for who we want as the CDS.


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## stellarpanther (23 Jul 2020)

Rumor is I'm the front runner for the job! ;D


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## Quirky (23 Jul 2020)

Some of the comments on Reddit on his departure.  :rofl:


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## Ostrozac (23 Jul 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Remember, selection isn’t limited just to LGens.  Technically any General Officer could be appointed.
> 
> Don’t know for sure...could be amongst the following four or five, IMO.
> 
> ...



Hasn't General Allen already been committed, as a LGen, to a NATO job for this year?


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## Kilted (23 Jul 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> A female CDS could be the PM's way to show he has "learned" from the JWR/Philpot debacle.



Doctor Who already did it.


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## dapaterson (23 Jul 2020)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Hasn't General Allen already been committed, as a LGen, to a NATO job for this year?



Anything can change; unexpected departures change posting plots at all ranks.  Summer 2019, LGen Eyre returned from Korea, took command of MPC and the appointment as CMP; returned to Korea; came back (again) from Korea and took over the Army from LGen Lanthier (who became VCDS); at the ceremony where he handed over MPC / appointment as CMP to VAdm Edmundson some 66 days after he took over, he noted in his speech "I have to be honest.  I didn't quite manage to accomplish everything I intended."


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## MilEME09 (23 Jul 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Anything can change; unexpected departures change posting plots at all ranks.  Summer 2019, LGen Eyre returned from Korea, took command of MPC and the appointment as CMP; returned to Korea; came back (again) from Korea and took over the Army from LGen Lanthier (who became VCDS); at the ceremony where he handed over MPC / appointment as CMP to VAdm Edmundson some 66 days after he took over, he noted in his speech "I have to be honest.  I didn't quite manage to accomplish everything I intended."



I would question if anything major was accomplished with such a short post


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## Navy_Pete (23 Jul 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I would question if anything major was accomplished with such a short post



In routine?


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## dimsum (23 Jul 2020)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> In routine?



In the NCR, during Covid?  Doubtful.


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## dapaterson (23 Jul 2020)

That was summer 2019, pre-COVID-19.


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## tomahawk6 (24 Jul 2020)

What about Lt.-Gen. Wayne Eyre getting the job ?


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## lenaitch (24 Jul 2020)

Given the priorities of the current government, I would suspect they put as much careful thought in choosing the next CDS and they would picking the next ambassador to Uzbekistan.


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## Remius (24 Jul 2020)

They are going to pick someone who is willing to make cuts and reduce the CAF.  So yeah, they will be very careful with who they pick.


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## FJAG (24 Jul 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> They are going to pick someone who is willing to make cuts and reduce the CAF.  So yeah, they will be very careful with who they pick.



Why bother? They control the budget anyway so cost cutting and a probable force reduction is already written on the wall. Willingness isn't the issue.

What they really need is to find someone who can take those cost reductions and make the hard decisions to reshape the force so that it is still credible and capable. (getting rid of 10,000 full-timers in Ottawa [including seventy-five or more GOFOs/senior civil servants and the hierarchy of Cols, LCols, Majs etc that support them] would be a good start first step - I'll start the bidding with 50 legal officers and two military judges plus staff as well as all of DNDCFLA  ;D)

Good luck finding someone within the organization with that skill set.

 :stirpot:


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## SupersonicMax (24 Jul 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Why bother? They control the budget anyway so cost cutting and a probable force reduction is already written on the wall. Willingness isn't the issue.
> 
> What they really need is to find someone who can take those cost reductions and make the hard decisions to reshape the force so that it is still credible and capable. (getting rid of 10,000 full-timers in Ottawa [including seventy-five or more GOFOs/senior civil servants and the hierarchy of Cols, LCols, Majs etc that support them] would be a good start first step - I'll start the bidding with 50 legal officers and two military judges plus staff as well as all of DNDCFLA  ;D)
> 
> ...



First you’d need the organization to accept that everything need not be approved by GOFOs and establish trust with the tactical level commanders.....


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## dapaterson (24 Jul 2020)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> First you’d need the organization to accept that everything need not be approved by GOFOs and establish trust with the tactical level commanders.....



Keep that up and...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sglyFwTjfDU


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## PuckChaser (24 Jul 2020)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> First you’d need the organization to accept that everything need not be approved by GOFOs and establish trust with the tactical level commanders.....



Well considering Gen Vance said any job that was important needed a GOFO to do it, and that he'd hire more if he could then we're off on the right track with his retirement....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jul 2020)

The claims swerve has been split and posted  here

Please keep this thread on Gen. Vance's retirement.


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## tomahawk6 (25 Jul 2020)

We saw the samething under Bill Clinton,unless you were prepared to quit you saluted and climbed aboard the crap wagon.


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## shawn5o (28 Jul 2020)

Frankly, why do we bother. Not that the CDS (Vance from previous to future CDS) isn't/aren't good but it is a political promotion. Recall that PM Blackie promoted RCMP Brenda Lucki to RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki. MY cousin, who is an RCMP member, info'ed me that there were better qualified female/male RCMP members for the position. And Blackie screwed her with his statement about systematic racism horse turds.

Dollars to donuts, the next CDS will be probably be a female. Nothing wrong with that but PM is shoveling us with his "woke" credentials.


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## stellarpanther (28 Jul 2020)

shawn5o said:
			
		

> Frankly, why do we bother. Not that the CDS (Vance from previous to future CDS) isn't/aren't good but it is a political promotion. Recall that PM Blackie promoted RCMP Brenda Lucki to RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki. MY cousin, who is an RCMP member, info'ed me that there were better qualified female/male RCMP members for the position. And Blackie screwed her with his statement about systematic racism horse turds.
> 
> Dollars to donuts, the next CDS will be probably be a female. Nothing wrong with that but PM is shoveling us with his "woke" credentials.



You should read the rules of this site.  PM Trudeau put the current RCMP Commissioner into her position.  Derogatory words such as "PM Blackie" are not permitted on this site.  Hopefully one of the mods can address this better.


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## shawn5o (28 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> You should read the rules of this site.  PM Trudeau put the current RCMP Commissioner into her position.  Derogatory words such as "PM Blackie" are not permitted on this site.  Hopefully one of the mods can address this better.



My apologies. PM Trudeau does deserve better treatment. However, the main intent of my post is simply that the promotiont to RCMP Commissioner and CDS  is political, nothing more and nothing less.

Happy?


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## stellarpanther (28 Jul 2020)

[ [ [


			
				shawn5o said:
			
		

> My apologies. PM Trudeau does deserve better treatment. However, the main intent of my post is simply that the promotiont to RCMP Commissioner and CDS  is political, nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> Happy?



 :nod:


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## shawn5o (28 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> [ [ [
> :nod:



Thanks. I will do better.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> You should read the rules of this site.  PM Trudeau put the current RCMP Commissioner into her position.  Derogatory words such as "PM Blackie" are not permitted on this site.  Hopefully one of the mods can address this better.



Would that be similar to calling Ranger Ray, Ranger Boy?


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## stellarpanther (28 Jul 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Would that be similar to calling Ranger Ray, Ranger Boy?



No it wouldn't be, not even close.  But I just looked back at my comment and I apologize to him for that because I didn't notice that.  I really did think it was Ranger Boy not RangerRay.  I'm also going to send him a PM as well to apologize.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Jul 2020)

Nice.


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## blacktriangle (28 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> No it wouldn't be, not even close.  But I just looked back at my comment and I apologize to him for that because I didn't notice that.  I really did think it was Ranger Boy not RangerRay.  I'm also going to send him a PM as well to apologize.



1. You experience things differently than others; and
2. You know how to apologize

Have you considered running for election?


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## stellarpanther (28 Jul 2020)

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> 1. You experience things differently than others; and
> 2. You know how to apologize
> 
> Have you considered running for election?



I've heard that before but I don't feel comfortable speaking in public. lol

Joking aside, my apology was sincere and it was a mistake with the name.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Jul 2020)

Thank you all for working it out and lets keep it civil in the future.

Now:

BACK ON TOPIC FOLKS.


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