# What RESERVES trades are hiring? Bachelor degree in Computers



## chrys (8 Sep 2014)

Hello Everyone,

I am 32 years old and I've been living in Canada since I was 18. I studied Bachelor of Computer Science from Canadian university and I also did 1 semester of graduate school (Masters in Computer Science) but haven't finished graduate studies yet. I have over *4 years* of experience working as Software Engineer as such. But I have been working as IT Project Manager for last 3.5 years.

I've always wanted to join the reserves but I did not have Canadian citizenship until recently. I am wondering if anyone can advise what trades are hiring? I am interested in joining *Reserves - Officer route.*

My preference is *Air Force reserve * -> Navy Reserve -> Army Reserve

Ideally, I'd like to do some *technical  trade*(Signals Officer? Information Systems Officer? Information Security Officer? etc). I looked up CF website but I am told that CF website is not best source of what trades may / may not be hiring as it's not updated frequently enough.

I live in *Toronto*. I understand that if I am accepted into Reserves, I'd have to attend BMOQ which can be done on part-time basis. So, I won't have to quit my civilian job and won't need to take too much time off from work. *Please correct me if I am wrong.* 

I understand *Borden* is couple of hours from Toronto and I don't mind the drive to Borden for training or even weekend parades, week-night parades, if that becomes my unit (?)


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## ModlrMike (8 Sep 2014)

I can't answer all your questions, but here's what I can tell you:

The best way to find out what's available is to visit the unit you're interested in joining and talk to their recruiter. Reserve units do their own recruiting.

Computer Science is compatible with a good number of Officer classifications, but again it depends on what unit you join.

You MAY be able to do BMOQ part time, but don't count on it. You WILL have to do your occupational training during the summer. That's how the Reserve training model is set up. Where and how long depends on what trade you join.

The ESA in Ontario governs Reservist Leave. While it specifies operations, most large employers will extend the provisions to cover training. You shouldn't have to quit your job to train with the Reserves.

Speaking solely for the Naval Reserve, MARS would be the closest occupation related to your degree. That being said, the training takes several months over three summers to qualify.


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## Occam (8 Sep 2014)

The odds that you'll find a reserve officer classification where you'll use your degree are slim and none.  You might get in as a MARS officer (or something else) and hope to find a A (part time) or B class (full time) position where your degree will be used, but as for regular employment at a reserve unit - you'll not have much luck.


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## DAA (8 Sep 2014)

http://www.forces.ca/en/centres/findarecruiter-110

Enter your location (ie; postal code or Province and City).  The page will populate with the information and under the "search" you will find "tabs" with all the Reserve Components and which units are hiring which occupations.

Good luck!


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## cryco (8 Sep 2014)

bmoq should be available as weekend training throughout the non-summer months, it's 12 weekends of training. The next two parts of your training, the leadership part and the occupational training (2 and 3 months respectively) are only done full time in the summer months. You don't necessarily need to quite your job, you just need an employer that can allow you to take some unpaid leave (I'm currently discussing this with my employer).


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## chrys (9 Sep 2014)

Thanks everyone for replies. I met with Naval recruiter earlier today at HMCS YORK. 
Naval Reserve training is done with Regular forces so it's 10+ weeks full-time. Plus another 10 weeks training. So, basically, approximately 20 weeks full-time training. Plus, 2-3 more summers depending on the trade you choose and qualify for.

I called Air Force recruiter and although they don't have any suitable position right now, they also train with reg forces so it's full-time commitment during training. No option to take weekend training.

Next, I am going to make appointment with Army Reserve and see how that works. From reading the forums, it seems like Army is the only place which provides basic training on weekend/part-time basis. AF and Navy do not.


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## cryco (9 Sep 2014)

the Army PRES has weekend training available. All  NCM trades have BMQ weekend training available and all but infantry have phase II available as weekend training as well..The officer route only offers the BMOQ as part time. (My recruiter got me all that info) The rest is full time


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## chrys (10 Sep 2014)

cryco said:
			
		

> the Army PRES has weekend training available. All  NMC trades have BMQ weekend training available and all but infantry have phase II available as weekend training as well..The officer route only offers the BMOQ as part time. (My recruiter got me all that info) The rest is full time



So, 
1. *only *the ARMY Reserves have weekend training? Both Naval and Air Force require full-time basic training (approx 10 weeks). Correct?

2. So:
Army reserve - *weekend *basic training + *weekend *officer training?
Navy reserve - *fulltime *basic training (approx 10 weeks) + *fulltime *officer training (another 10 weeks)?
Air Force reserve - *fulltime *basic training (10 weeks approx) + *fulltime *officer training (another 10 weeks)?
*Is my understanding (above) correct?*

2. Do you get paid while you are on FULL-TIME training? If so, how much (general idea of how much I get to keep in-hand after taxes and deductions)? The reason I ask is because my employer won't give me paid-time-off to attend training. So, if full-time training is unpaid, I should start saving right now so I can attend full-time later.


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## 211RadOp (10 Sep 2014)

You will be paid during training.  Officer Cadets receive a gross pay of $99.12/day if you work over 6 hrs that day.  Under 6 hrs is half that rate.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/pay-rates.page


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## cryco (10 Sep 2014)

chrys said:
			
		

> So,
> 1. *only *the ARMY Reserves have weekend training? Both Naval and Air Force require full-time basic training (approx 10 weeks). Correct?



I only know about the army PRES. Have no clue about navy and air.



			
				chrys said:
			
		

> 2. So:
> Army reserve - weekend basic training + weekend officer training?



The officer route only has the basic training available on weekends.


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## chrys (11 Sep 2014)

Thanks!

Few more follow-up questions -

I am a little confused with Class A, B and C. When you join reserve, what class are you? what class are you DURING training? And what class are you during your weekly parades/weekend parades?

When you join reserves as an officer, what is your rank/title during training? Is it something like *2LT-in-Training*? 

When do you become full *2LT* ? After Basic Training *or *
after Basic Training + Officer Training *or *
after Basic (approx 10 weeks) + Officer (approx 10 weeks) + Trade (1 or more whole summers)?

How many years of service do you perform as a reservist before you are promoted to Lieutenant? Is there a system of internal testing to grow in ranks? Like after 2 years of being 2LT, you write a test to see if you qualify to be Lieutenant?

In general, *what is career progression like for reservists*? Can a reservist aspire to grow into *Major or even Col* in say, 15-20 years of reserve-service?

 I am currently a manager in a technology company in my civilian life. So, I am mostly interested in technical trades so I don't think rank matters at all but your pay is tied to your rank. So, I am curious how career-progresses (how pay-progression is like)  I mean, it is possible that at some point rank (pay) would increase enough to be comparable to civilian pay. When that happens, I may just want to work full-time (maybe transfer to Reg Force, if possible) and be able to quit my civilian job altogether!

So far I have found following interesting trades:
* Communications and Electrical Engineering Officer
* Air Combat Systems Officer
* Signals Officer
* Aerospace Engineering Officer
* Intelligence Officer
* Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Officer
* Engineer Officer
* Military Police Officer
* Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer


*


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## 211RadOp (11 Sep 2014)

chrys said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> 
> Few more follow-up questions -
> 
> ...



Class A is part time work.  Class B is full time.  Class C is usually only when deployed into an active theater (Afghanistan for example but there are more).

You will be normally enrolled as an Officer Cadet (OCdt).  I am unsure as to when you are promoted to 2Lt, but I think it will be after you finish your occupation training.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Sep 2014)

chrys said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> 
> Few more follow-up questions -
> 
> I am a little confused with Class A, B and C. When you join reserve, what class are you? what class are you DURING training? And what class are you during your weekly parades/weekend parades?



All you mentioned are Class A.  Class B is temp, full time in a Reserve Force position.  Class C is basically if you are filling a Reg Force position temporarily as a Reservist, say like a tour in Afghanistan or something like that.



> When you join reserves as an officer, what is your rank/title during training? Is it something like *2LT-in-Training*?


 Officially its Officer Cadet.  You'll learn the unofficial names when you screw something up.   ^-^ 

So far I have found following interesting trades:
* Communications and Electrical Engineering Officer  This is an Air Force DEU trade from the Communications and Electronics branch.
* Air Combat Systems Officer  This is an Air Operations trade in the RCAF
* Signals Officer
* Aerospace Engineering Officer  This is an Air Operations trade in the RCAF
* Intelligence Officer
* Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Officer
* Engineer Officer
* Military Police Officer
* Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer


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## PanaEng (11 Sep 2014)

If you come to Ottawa, we are hiring 
33 CER (combat engineer, engineer officer) has a bunch of spots open - I won't say the number as other units might get jealous:
officers: 2 or 3 (preferably an Engineering degree program but a science degree may be acceptable)
ncm: quite a few including Geomatics Tech (TP and progression is still being debated though)

good luck


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## chrys (11 Sep 2014)

Thanks Eye In The Sky and 211RadOp.
So, you are an Officer Cadet until you've completed all three trainings Basic + Officer + Trade. I am guessing that'd take atleast 3 years. 
So, for first 3 years - you are Officer Cadet. During this you get paid 85% of $99.12.
After that, you become 2LT when you've completed all three training.  And you get 85% of whatever is in pay chart for 2Lt.

What about career-progression (pay progression) after you make it to 2LT? To earn comparable salary as I do from my Civilian job, I'd need to get to Col or higher. I'd love to serve full-time but given my liabilities (mortgage, education loan, family), I can't quit my civilian job and take a significant pay cut at this point in life. Maybe later, I'll be able to when my wife has finished her education and gotten a job too. So,  in the meanwhile, I am wondering how many years does it take to get to that level (or if it is at all possible in Reserves, given that reserves serve part-time and are unlikely to get as much field experience).



			
				PanaEng said:
			
		

> If you come to Ottawa, we are hiring
> 33 CER (combat engineer, engineer officer) has a bunch of spots open - I won't say the number as other units might get jealous:
> officers: 2 or 3 (preferably an Engineering degree program but a science degree may be acceptable)
> ncm: quite a few including Geomatics Tech (TP and progression is still being debated though)
> ...



Thanks! If I don't find an appropriate role in Toronto -> Borden -> Hamilton, I'd drive to Ottawa. I am in Toronto so I'd shortlist in order of distance!
Also, I have a Bachelor of Computer Science (not engineering) though.


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## cryco (11 Sep 2014)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> If you come to Ottawa, we are hiring
> 33 CER (combat engineer, engineer officer) has a bunch of spots open - I won't say the number as other units might get jealous:
> officers: 2 or 3 (preferably an Engineering degree program but a science degree may be acceptable)
> ncm: quite a few including Geomatics Tech (TP and progression is still being debated though)
> ...



ho now, you're making me jealous here... I have to wait till next year for a spot.


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## Brasidas (11 Sep 2014)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> You will be normally enrolled as an Officer Cadet (OCdt).  I am unsure as to when you are promoted to 2Lt, but I think it will be after you finish your occupation training.



Incorrect. A completed degree often means 2Lt. Hard and fast, no, but I have repeatedly seen 2Lts show up even at the beginning of BMQ, directly after enrollment. With occupation training, I've seen them promoted to Lt effective two years after enrolment (usually later promotion, with backdated effective date).

It can take longer, particularly when you don't get on and complete courses in a timely manner. Moreover, timings are different for those who do not have a degree completed.



			
				chrys said:
			
		

> What about career-progression (pay progression) after you make it to 2LT? To earn comparable salary as I do from my Civilian job, I'd need to get to Col or higher. I'd love to serve full-time but given my liabilities (mortgage, education loan, family), I can't quit my civilian job and take a significant pay cut at this point in life. Maybe later, I'll be able to when my wife has finished her education and gotten a job too. So,  in the meanwhile, I am wondering how many years does it take to get to that level (or if it is at all possible in Reserves, given that reserves serve part-time and are unlikely to get as much field experience).



If direct pay-equivalency is an issue, you should probably look elsewhere. The basic working rank for an experienced reserve officer is Captain. A major, for instance, is generally the senior officer of a sub-unit such as a Signal or Armoured Recce Squadron, if not a Regiment in the reserve. If its a healthy unit in a large area, you'll be a Captain for a while. Find a job that you enjoy, and enjoy the role. If you can't afford the time for the money, that's your call.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Sep 2014)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> Incorrect. A completed degree often means 2Lt. Hard and fast, no, but I have repeatedly seen 2Lts show up even at the beginning of BMQ, directly after enrollment. With occupation training, I've seen them promoted to Lt effective two years after enrolment (usually later promotion, with backdated effective date).



Hmm.  I don't like or support the "instant 2Lt" thing.  They don't even know how to lace up boots properly yet.

Seems the more fitting way is to get them thru BMQ as OCdts, then backpay them or whatever AFTER completion of initial trg.   :2c:

Not sure what the current practice is now for Reg Officers at CFLRS, but most DEOs came in as OCdts (there was one DEO who was a Capt upon swearing and wore his rank during both IAP and BOTP).  Others such as Nursing Os, were Ocdt until they graduated BMOQ, and were retroactively promoted to Lt with backpay to their swearing in date.  Most DEOs were promoted to 2Lt after BMOQ or shortly after when they headed to the Language School for SLT, etc.


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## Brasidas (11 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Hmm.  I don't like or support the "instant 2Lt" thing.  They don't even know how to lace up boots properly yet.
> 
> Seems the more fitting way is to get them thru BMQ as OCdts, then backpay them or whatever AFTER completion of initial trg.   :2c:



I don't disagree at all.


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## Cui (11 Sep 2014)

Is the "instant 2Lt" an army reserve thing only?

In the naval reserves, everyone who I went on basic with who had degrees still held the rank of NCdt. until they graduated. The only person who was and ASlt was a CIC officer who OT'd over to MARS.


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## chrys (11 Sep 2014)

Thanks, everyone. So I have spoken to Air-Force and Army recruiter on the phone. And attended an info-session for Navy reserves.

Although I've strong interest in joining Air-Force or Navy, it seems like they are not hiring for positions where I can utilize my education and experience. Army, on the other hand, has an occupation called *Signals Officer* and it seems to be a good match for my educational background in Computer Science.

I'll be meeting with an Army recruiter in Toronto in about 2 weeks from now and update this thread with what I find out. 

From my phone conversation though, I thought the cool things about Army are:
1. Basic Training can be done on weekend basis for 6 months
2. They have Signals Officer occupation which is a good match for someone with degree in Computers
3. Training requirements are not as intense as Navy or Air-Force and hence it's easier to hold on to my civilian job. I mean, it'd be easier to balance Sicilian job with army duties

I was (and still am) fascinated with Navy because I thought it'd be cool to learn Navy's Survival At the Sea training and also I thought Navy would be a lot more hi-tech (all those communication systems become harder when you are out at the sea and require more sophisticated technology). But at the moment, Navy doesn't seem to be hiring for an occupation that'd be a good fit for me.

Air-Force - well, who isn't fascinated with fighter jets and huge transport aircrafts? 

The not-so-cool thing about Army is (    )
-> no training at the sea  !! _So fascinated by ships and planes. Haha_


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## dimsum (11 Sep 2014)

Most Air Reserve trades are for people who were ex-Regular Force.  For example, there are reserve ACSO positions (apparently) but you have had to be a Reg F ACSO to go through the courses, etc. 

So realistically, you're looking at Army or Navy anyway.


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## PMedMoe (11 Sep 2014)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Most Air Reserve trades are for people who were ex-Regular Force.



I can't dispute "most", but I can say not all.


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## chrys (12 Sep 2014)

Hello Everyone,

I was able to meet recruiter from Army earlier today and I wanted to update this thread with what I learned as it could be helpful to other perspective candidates.

Signals Officer - prefers candidates with Bachelors in Computer Science.

First phase is BMOQ - Basic Military Officer Qualification. 
-> Training is *alternating weekends*, over* 6 months* in *Toronto*
-> you report for training Friday evening at 7pm and leave Sunday evening.

Second phase is called CAP - Common Army Phase and sometimes also known as BMOQ-Land
-> approximately *11 weeks*, full-time in *Meaford, Ontario*
-> weekends are free

Third phase is occupation/trade training for Signals Officer.
-> This happens the following summer (year after, basically)
-> *16 weeks*. But quite possibly divided into *2 modules of 8 weeks each*.
-> Takes place in *Kingston, Ontario*
-> weekends are free

As reservist, time commitment is: 1 evening per week and 1 weekend per month. You can do more, if you like, but this is minimum commitment they ask for. If you are unable to attend some evening or weekend, you can let them know and usually they are okay with that.

Changing element (say, from *Army to Navy*) is strongly discouraged. So, be sure you want to do Army before applying. But it has happened before so it's not unheard of. Just discouraged.

Changing trades is also discouraged. For example, Signals Officer -> Infantry Officer.  But again, it has happened before. But you'd still be doing at-least 3 years in your trade.

In addition to this, Army has a lot of courses that are open. So, you do *NOT *need to change trade if all you want to do is learn something. For example, as Signals Officer, if you wanted to be Airborne qualified, you could take that course and learn that.

I didn't ask any questions related to pay/rank - I'll ask them next time I meet the recruiter and update this thread.


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## Brasidas (12 Sep 2014)

chrys said:
			
		

> As reservist, time commitment is: 1 evening per week and 1 weekend per month. You can do more, if you like, but this is minimum commitment they ask for. If you are unable to attend some evening or weekend, you can let them know and usually they are okay with that.



The hard minimum requirement is one parade per month. Give notice wherever possible when you can not attend.



> Changing trades is also discouraged. For example, Signals Officer -> Infantry Officer.  But again, it has happened before. But you'd still be doing at-least 3 years in your trade.



Three years in trade may be true for reg force; it is not true for the reserve. However, you would need to have support from at least the gaining unit to change trade. I've known class B's who've gone through four trades in nine years. One just got back from teaching a trade course.



> In addition to this, Army has a lot of courses that are open. So, you do *NOT *need to change trade if all you want to do is learn something. For example, as Signals Officer, if you wanted to be Airborne qualified, you could take that course and learn that.



Possible? Sure. Practical is pure chance and flexibility. Good luck getting on a jump course, particularly without last minute flexibility with your primary employer.


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## chrys (15 Sep 2014)

Hello folks,

I have gotten different answers to a question from different recruiters. Wondering if anyone here knows the answer.

Question is - when applying for Primary Reserves, you could give upto 3 choices of occupation. Do all choices have to be from same element? Can I have choice 1: Signals Officer - Land, choice 2: Air Combat Systems Officer, choice 3: MARS Officer ?

Army recruiter said - all of them have to be from same element (Land/Army, in this case)

Navy info session said, when you fill application online, you'd be able to choose 3 choices from different elements

Air-Force recruiter (on phone) said - you do NOT fill application online without first getting a position number # from Air-Force recruiter. So, they do some preliminary interview and if they think you'd be a match, they give you a position # and then you go apply online or at a Recruitment Center.

So, I am a bit *confused *here. _*Anyone knows the answer?*_


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## RedcapCrusader (15 Sep 2014)

No. That information is wrong. You can select an occupation in each element if you wish so long as they are all Officer or all NCM. You cannot apply to both the RegF and PRes at the same time.

The issue at hand is that you must visit the unit you wish to join and attend an info session to receive an "intent to recruit" type letter which the CFRC uses to ensure the unit wishes to recruit and take you on strength. Without this, your application will not move forward. Some units are lucky enough that they have an excellent Recruiting NCO and they'll be able to give you the information steps you needs. 

Basically, for the reserves, you need to pick one unit, one trade; you don't get a choice once it comes to the actual application itself.


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## Mike5 (18 Sep 2014)

As has been stated already, you will need a letter / e-mail from a reserve unit before the CFRC will process your application.  You say you're in Toronto and interested in Signals so I would recommend you contact 32 Signals Regiment directly.

For what it's worth, I did the weekend BMOQ in Toronto and was commissioned as a Signal Officer.  My background (as well as another Signal Officer on the course) is similar to yours.  It did require many weekends away but did not disrupt civilian career.  It has been an extremely rewarding experience -- but be prepared to put in time and energy.

And start doing push-ups now  

Good luck,


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## chrys (18 Sep 2014)

Mike5 said:
			
		

> As has been stated already, you will need a letter / e-mail from a reserve unit before the CFRC will process your application.  You say you're in Toronto and interested in Signals so I would recommend you contact 32 Signals Regiment directly.
> 
> For what it's worth, I did the weekend BMOQ in Toronto and was commissioned as a Signal Officer.  My background (as well as another Signal Officer on the course) is similar to yours.  It did require many weekends away but did not disrupt civilian career.  It has been an extremely rewarding experience -- but be prepared to put in time and energy.
> 
> ...



Hi - I actually submitted my application for Signals Officer at 32 Signals Regiment few days ago and handed over all my documents as well. 

Recruiter (MCpl) told me to not worry about letter - he said, he'd write one or get one. He is authorized to recruit for this position already.

I am told that next step for me is  that I'd be meeting with CO for an interview sometime next week. And he'd also schedule fitness and CFAT in coming weeks.

Because I was born abroad, the background check is likely to take longer but he didn't give me any idea of how much longer. He advised me to concentrate on the interview, fitness and CFAT for now.

You mentioned you are also a Signals Officer at 32 Signals Regiment. Could you provide some tips for the interview? You could send me a private message, if you'd like.  I'd like to know what kind of technologies do you work with as SO at this regiment? What is work like? What is training like?


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## George Wallace (18 Sep 2014)

chrys

You have completed the first steps with visiting the Reserve unit.  The MCpl may send the letter directly to the CAFRC to start your processing.  All your processing will be done at the CAFRC, to include your CFAT, medical and PT tests.   The Reserve unit, once it has accepted you as a prospect, hands all processing over to the CAFRC who will then hand your successfully completed documentation back to the Reserve unit for your enrollment into the CAF Reserves.  It is only after your enrollment that the Reserve unit will have full control to manage your records and career.


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## chrys (18 Sep 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> chrys
> 
> You have completed the first steps with visiting the Reserve unit.  The MCpl may send the letter directly to the CAFRC to start your processing.  All your processing will be done at the CAFRC, to include your CFAT, medical and PT tests.   The Reserve unit, once it has accepted you as a prospect, hands all processing over to the CAFRC who will then hand your successfully completed documentation back to the Reserve unit for your enrollment into the CAF Reserves.  It is only after your enrollment that the Reserve unit will have full control to manage your records and career.



Correction - never visited the Reserves unit. I called the unit, spoke to MCpl on the phone, and then he told me he'd meet me at CAFRC office on Yonge St. So, I met him there 3 times (handed over all my documents, signed application) in my 3rd visit.

He told me next step is to interview with CO at 32 Signals. And he'd schedule it for next week.
He'd also schedule fitness, CFAT, medical tests in coming weeks.
Background check will take as long as it'll take - he didn't provide any estimate for that.


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## George Wallace (18 Sep 2014)

chrys said:
			
		

> Correction - never visited the Reserves unit. I called the unit, spoke to MCpl on the phone, and then he told me he'd meet me at CAFRC office on Yonge St. So, I met him there 3 times (handed over all my documents, signed application) in my 3rd visit.
> 
> He told me next step is to interview with CO at 32 Signals. And he'd schedule it for next week.
> He'd also schedule fitness, CFAT, medical tests in coming weeks.
> Background check will take as long as it'll take - he didn't provide any estimate for that.



In this case, the Reserve Recruiter may have also been holding a full-time job as a Recruiter at the CAFRC and was able to facilitate you there.  It is not the norm in the majority of Reserve units.  It is a normal step for the Reserve unit to conduct an "Officer Selection Board" to accept new officers and new officer candidates into their unit.  The successful completion of that will set your application as an officer candidate into motion.


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