# Armouries



## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2021)

Question:  Does ADM(IE) have a publicly available inventory of armouries?  I have seen 169 cited as the number of armouries in service.  Can this, and their locations and tenants be clarified?


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## dapaterson (25 Nov 2021)

Not an official site, nor can I attest to how complete it is, but Wikipedia has a decent list.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Not an official site, nor can I attest to how complete it is, but *Wikipedia *has a decent list.



Nice to know that a reliable inventory of our defence infrastructure/ assetts can be easily accessed online.... somewhere.


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## dapaterson (25 Nov 2021)

Every time a government department creates a useful online tool available to the public, I start counting down the days until the champion who got it created leaves, the data stops getting maintained, and it slowly disappears into irrelevance.


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Nov 2021)

A keyword search using "Armoury" of the Directory of Federal Real Property returned the following result

https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/dfrp-rbif/query_question/summary-sommaire-eng.aspx?qid=26003830


> Your query has found *119* parcels of land on *119* properties, with a total land area of *509 ha*. This includes *190* buildings with a total floor area of *266,455 m2*. Please note that while the property data satisfies the search criteria chosen, some of the residing buildings may not. Select the "Buildings" tab to see the buildings that satisfy the search criteria



The result will not provide all the specifics of your question and obviously "190 buildings" is a minor portion of the over 13,400 buildings that the directory says are under National Defence.


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## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2021)

I'm sorry for disturbing the hive. 

I shoulda known it wouldn't be as simple as asking.

Thanks guys.

Blackadder - what happens if you search by Manege?   I'm wondering if some of the "armouries" are not officially named Armoury.

Sorry - I see you sent me the link.  I'll try pressing the buttons myself.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> A keyword search using "Armoury" of the Directory of Federal Real Property returned the following result
> 
> https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/dfrp-rbif/query_question/summary-sommaire-eng.aspx?qid=26003830
> 
> The result will not provide all the specifics of your question and obviously "190 buildings" is a minor portion of the over 13,400 buildings that the directory says are under National Defence.



Nice sleuthing!

I'm just on a 'baseline numbers' kick these days.

I keep asking some clients difficult questions like, 'How many clients do you serve on a regular basis' or 'How many pieces of equipment do you have', and am greeted with awkward silences.

You can't manage what you don't count, let alone measure


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2021)

By combining DAP's Wiki List and Blackadder's Treasury List I manage to create a list of 169 Armouries.






						Commander Canadian Army  - Canada.ca
					

March 2020 - Essential information to familiarize the Minister with the Department.




					www.canada.ca
				




Primary location(s):​
11 Army Bases and *169 Armouries *in 117 communities across Canada
185 Ranger patrols in over 200 remote communities
1150 personnel currently (31 July 2019) on expeditionary operations (Eastern Europe, Africa, Iraq/Kuwait, etc.)
Unfortunately my list of 169 contains at least one Armoury (Enderby Drill Hall) I am pretty sure is defunct.



ItemWikipediaTreasury Board1​Colonel James Layton Ralston ArmouryAmherst, Nova ScotiaAmherst, NSProperty 03205Armoury2​Aurora ArmouryAurora, OntarioAurora, ONProperty 70157Armoury3​Baddeck ArmouryBaddeck, Nova Scotia4​Barrie ArmouryBarrie, OntarioBarrie, ONProperty 11054Armoury5​Mulcaster Street ArmouryBarrie, Ontario6​Col CC Gammon ArmouryBathurst, New BrunswickBathurst, NBProperty 58487Armoury7​Shenley ArmouryBeauceville, QuebecBeauceville, QCProperty 05991Armoury8​Beauport Armoury or Building 1Beauport, QuebecBeauport QCProperty 05877Armoury9​Bedford NSProperty 70119Armoury10​Belleville ArmouryBelleville, OntarioBelleville, ONProperty 09528Armoury11​Brampton ArmouryBrampton, OntarioBrampton, ONProperty 10184Armoury12​Brampton, ONProperty 10185Armoury13​Brandon ArmouryBrandon, ManitobaBrandon, MBProperty 12454Armoury14​Brantford ArmouryBrantford, OntarioBrantford, ONProperty 10491Armoury15​Brockville ArmouryBrockville, OntarioBrockville, ONProperty 09150Armoury16​Burford ArmouryBurford, Ontario17​Bury ArmouryBury, Quebec18​Mewata Drill Hall / Calgary Drill HallCalgary, AlbertaCalgary, ABProperty 15202Mewata Armoury19​Cambridge ArmouryCambridge, OntarioCambridge, ONProperty 10504Armoury20​Water Street ArmouryCampbellton, New BrunswickCampbellton, NBProperty 04827Armoury21​Queen Charlotte ArmouryCharlottetown, Prince Edward IslandCharlottetown, PEProperty 02029Queen Charlotte Armoury22​Chatham ArmouryChatham, OntarioChatham ONProperty 70085Armoury23​ChicoutimiProperty 69920Armoury24​Chilliwack, BCProperty 16439Colonel Roger St. John Armoury25​Coaticook ArmouryCoaticook, Quebec26​Cobourg ArmouryCobourg, OntarioCobourg, ONProperty 70016Armoury27​Gallipoli ArmouryCorner Brook, Newfoundland and LabradorCorner Brook, NLProperty 00912Galipoli Armoury28​Cornwall ArmouryCornwall, OntarioCornwall, ONProperty 08474Armoury29​Arm Lads Brigade ArmouryDurrell, Newfoundland and Labrador30​St-Louis Street ArmouryDrummondville, QuebecDrummondville, QCProperty 06404Armoury31​Dundas ArmouryDundas, Ontario32​Durham ArmouryDurham, Ontario33​Connaught ArmouryEdmonton, AlbertaEdmonton, ABProperty 70041Jefferson Armoury34​Lieutenant Colonel Philip Debney ArmouryEdmonton, AlbertaEdmonton, ABProperty 70042LCol Philip L. Debney Armoury35​Prince of Wales Armouries Heritage CentreEdmonton, Alberta36​Hudson's Bay Company Stables Ortona ArmouryEdmonton, Alberta37​Brig. James Curry Jefferson ArmoryEdmonton, Alberta38​Land Titles Building – Victoria ArmouryEdmonton, Alberta39​Edmundston, NBProperty 69904Armoury40​Former Elora Drill Shed[15]Elora, Ontario41​Enderby Drill HallEnderby, British Columbia42​Etobicoke ONProperty 70096Armoury43​Carlton Street ArmouryFredericton, New BrunswickFredericton, NBProperty 04676Armoury44​Gagetown Drill HallGagetown, New Brunswick45​Galt ArmouryGalt, Ontario46​Salaberry ArmouryHull Sector Gatineau, QuebecGatineau, QCProperty 07604Salaberry Armoury47​Col J.R. Barber ArmouryGeorgetown, OntarioGeorgetown, OntarioProperty 52313Georgetown Armoury48​Glace Bay NSProperty 03690Armoury49​Lieutenant Colonel William (Billy) MulherinGrand Falls, New BrunswickGrand Falls, NBProperty 30872Armoury50​Beaumont Hamel ArmouryGrand Falls-Windsor, Newfoundland and LabradorGrand Falls-Windsor, NLProperty 01008Armoury51​Guelph ArmouryGuelph, OntarioGuelph, ONProperty 10211Armoury52​Halifax ArmouryHalifax, Nova ScotiaHalifax, NSProperty 02914Armoury53​54​John Weir Foote ArmouryHamilton, OntarioHamilton, ONProperty 10304Armoury55​Happy Valley-Goose Bay, NLProperty 33536Maj EJC Holland VC Armoury56​Indian Head ArmouryIndian Head, Saskatchewan57​Joliette ArmouryJoliette, Quebec58​JR Vicars ArmouryKamloops, British ColumbiaKamloops, BCProperty 32272Jr Vicars Armoury59​Brigadier Angle ArmouryKelowna, British ColumbiaKelowna, BCProperty 18637Angle Armoury60​Kenora, ONProperty 57400Armoury61​Kingston Drill HallKingston, OntarioKingston, ONProperty 09446Prince of Wales Armoury62​Kitchener ArmouryKitchener, OntarioKitchener, ONProperty 10514Brigadier Walter Alexander Bean Armoury63​Laval, QCProperty 69607Charles Michel de Salaberry Armoury64​Lévis ArmouryLévis, QuebecLévis, QCProperty 05928Armoury65​London ArmouryLondon, Ontario66​Matane ArmouryMatane, QuebecMatane, QCProperty 05393Armoury67​Medicine Hat, ABProperty 14955Patterson Armoury68​Main Street and McLeod Avenue, combined Post Office and Armoury.Melfort, Saskatchewan69​Middleton ArmouryMiddleton, Nova ScotiaMiddleton, NS
Property 02612Armoury70​George Street ArmouryMiramichi, New BrunswickMiramichi, NBProperty 04608Armoury71​Mississauga, ONProperty 70297LCol Samuel Beckett Armoury72​Moncton armouryMoncton, New Brunswick73​Montmagny ArmouryMontmagny, QuebecMontmagny, QCProperty 05647Armoury74​Canadian Grenadier Guards’ ArmouryMontreal, QuebecMontréal, QCProperty 07069Côte-des-Neiges Armoury75​Black Watch ArmouryMontreal, QuebecMontréal, QCProperty 07085Esplanade Armoury76​Côte des Neiges ArmouryMontreal, QuebecMontréal, QCProperty 07087Henri-Julien Armoury77​Craig Street Drill HallMontreal, QuebecMontréal, QCProperty 07088Bleury Armoury78​Victoria Rifles ArmouryMontreal, QuebecMontréal, QCProperty 07089Cathcart Armoury79​Westmount ArmouryMontreal, Westmount, QuebecMontréal, QCProperty 07157St-Joseph Armoury80​St-Joseph Boulevard E ArmouryMontreal, Quebec81​Manège Henri-JulienMontreal, Quebec82​Colonel D. V. Currie VC ArmouryMoose Jaw, SaskatchewanMoose Jaw, SKProperty 13821Armoury83​Naden Armoury(Naden) Esquimalt, British Columbia84​Napanee ArmouryNapanee, Ontario85​New Glasgow ArmouryNew Glasgow, Nova ScotiaNew Glasgow, NSProperty 03288Armoury86​New Glasgow, NSProperty 69813Armoury87​The Royal Westminster Regiment ArmouryNew WestminsterNew Westminster, BCProperty 17008Armoury88​Niagara Falls ArmouryNiagara Falls, Ontario89​North Vancouver, BCProperty 17080Fell Armoury90​North Vancouver, BCProperty 58335Fell Armoury91​Oakville ArmouryOakville, OntarioOakville, ONProperty 10241Armoury92​Colonel R. S. McLaughlin ArmouryOshawa, OntarioOshawa, ONProperty 09830Armoury93​Cartier Square Drill HallOttawa, OntarioOttawa, ONProperty 08791Cartier Square Armoury94​Major E. J. G. Holland VC ArmouryOttawa, Ontario95​Morrison Battery ParkOttawa, Ontario96​Tommy Holmes VC Memorial Armoury 858-10th Street EastOwen Sound, OntarioOwen Sound, ONProperty 10997Armoury97​Pembroke ArmouryPembroke, OntarioPembroke, ONProperty 09532Armoury98​Pembroke, ONProperty 11339Armoury99​Petawawa ArmouryPetawawa, Ontario100​Peterborough Drill Hall[25]Peterborough, OntarioPeterborough, ONProperty 09720Armoury101​Col Welsford MacDonald ArmouryPictou, Nova ScotiaPictou, NSProperty 03268Armoury102​Portage la Prairie ArmouryPortage la Prairie, ManitobaPortage la Prairie, MBProperty 12525Armoury103​Prince Albert ArmouryPrince Albert, SaskatchewanPrince Albert, SKProperty 14453Armoury104​Port Arthur ArmouryPort Arthur, Ontario105​Prince George, BCProperty 70301Armoury106​Quebec City ArmouryQuebec City, QuebecQuébec, QCProperty 70305Pierre Bertrand Armoury107​HMCS Montcalm Training CentreQuebec City, Quebec108​Red Deer ArmouryRed Deer, AlbertaRed Deer, ABProperty 15335Armoury109​Regina ArmouryRegina, SaskatchewanRegina, SKProperty 13721Armoury110​Richmond, BCProperty 16749Sherman Armoury111​Rimouski ArmouryRimouski, QuebecRimouski, QCProperty 05441Armoury112​Rimouski, QCProperty 70289Armoury113​Rivière-du-Loup ArmouryRivière-du-Loup, QuebecRivière-du-Loup, QCProperty 69524Armoury114​Rossland ArmouryRossland, British Columbia115​Rouyn ArmouryRouyn, QuebecRouyn-Noranda, QCProperty 07737Armoury116​Saanich, BCProperty 52254Ashton Armoury117​Saguenay, QCProperty 22495Armoury118​Laframboise Street ArmourySaint-Hyacinthe, QuebecSaint-Hyacinthe, QCProperty 06584Armoury119​Sarnia, ONProperty 29225Armoury120​Saskatoon, SKProperty 14171Armoury121​Sault Ste. Marie, ONProperty 11848Armoury122​Scarborough ONProperty 70092Armoury123​Scarborough ONProperty 70320Armoury124​William Street ArmourySherbrooke, QuebecSherbrooke, QCProperty 06317William Armoury125​Belvédère Street ArmourySherbrooke, QuebecSherbrooke, QCProperty 06318Belvédère Armoury126​Simcoe, ONProperty 58413Armoury127​LCol Daniel J Murray ArmourySpringhill, Nova ScotiaSpringhill NSProperty 32771Armoury128​St. Catharines ArmourySt. Catharines, OntarioSt. Catharines, ONProperty 10412Armoury129​CWO Couture OMM, CD drill hall building 16Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec130​Barrack Green ArmourySaint John, New Brunswick131​St. Lambert ArmourySt. Lambert, Quebec132​St. Mary's ArmouriesSt. Marys, Ontario133​St. Thomas ArmourySt. Thomas, OntarioSt. Thomas, ONProperty 10605Armoury134​Stratford ArmouryStratford, OntarioStratford, ONProperty 10558Armoury135​Strathcona ArmouryStrathcona, AlbertaStephenville, NLProperty 52317Armoury136​Strathroy ArmouryStrathroy, Ontario137​Sudbury, ONProperty 11636Armoury138​Summerside ArmourySummerside, Prince Edward Island139​Sussex ArmourySussex, New Brunswick140​Thunder Bay ArmouryThunder Bay, OntarioThunder Bay, ONProperty 11964Armoury141​Timmins, ONProperty 11714Armoury142​Toronto ArmoriesToronto, OntarioToronto, ONProperty 09966Moss Park Armoury143​Moss Park ArmouryToronto, OntarioToronto, ONProperty 10002Fort York Armoury/Trg Area144​Fort York ArmouryToronto, Ontario145​Denison ArmouryToronto, Ontario146​Trail, BCProperty 16313Kemball Armoury147​Général Jean-Victor Allard ArmouryTrois-Rivières, QuebecTrois-Rivières, QCProperty 06431Armoury148​Truro ArmouryTruro, Nova ScotiaTruro, NSProperty 03130Armoury149​Seaforth ArmouryVancouver, British ColumbiaVancouverProperty 16873Beatty Armoury150​Lt. Col. James Pemberton Fell (J.P. Fell) ArmouryNorth Vancouver, British ColumbiaVancouver, BCProperty 16872Seaforth Armoury151​Beatty Street Drill HallVancouver, British ColumbiaVancouver, BCProperty 16874Bessborough Armoury152​Bessborough ArmouryVancouver, British Columbia153​Brigadier Murphy ArmouryVernon, British ColumbiaVernon, BCProperty 18680Murphy Armoury154​Lt. General E. C. Ashton ArmouryVictoria, British ColumbiaVictoria, BCProperty 17337Bay Street Armoury155​Bay Street Drill Hall[34] at McBride StreetVictoria, British Columbia156​Menzies Street Drill HallVictoria, British Columbia157​Virden Armoury Bay Street at McBride StreetVirden, Manitoba158​Tommy Prince Drill HallWainwright, Alberta159​Walkerton ArmouryWalkerton, Ontario160​Waterloo, ONProperty 70328Armoury161​Wellington ArmouryWellington, Ontario162​Westmount, QCProperty 07065Ste-Catherine Armoury163​Windsor, NSProperty 57358Armoury164​Maj FA Tilson VC ArmouryWindsor, OntarioWindsor, ONProperty 58392Armoury165​Winnipeg Drill Hall & B8-Drill Hall (Korea Hall)Winnipeg, ManitobaWinnipeg, MBProperty 12557Minto Armoury and Parade Square166​Minto ArmouryWinnipeg, ManitobaWinnipeg, MBProperty 12693McGregor Armoury167​McGregor ArmouryWinnipeg, Manitoba168​Woodstock ArmouryWoodstock, New BrunswickWoodstock, NBProperty 04717Armoury169​Yorkton ArmouryYorkton, SaskatchewanYorkton, SKProperty 13954Armoury


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## FJAG (26 Nov 2021)

So Kirk - all that you need to do now is add which units occupy which armouries, how many people are on strength at each, one and what their equipment holdings are and we can start rationalizing the Res F.

🍻


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2021)

FJAG said:


> So Kirk - all that you need to do now is add which units occupy which armouries, how many people are on strength at each, one and what their equipment holdings are and we can start rationalizing the Res F.
> 
> 🍻


Be back to you in a mo'.


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2021)

Started on the effort a week or two ago

The first column references the current situation against the 38,000,000 population of Canada divided among 169 armouries.  Each armoury is supported by / supports an average community of 224,852 Canadians and maintains a Reserve Payroll of 112 based on 19,000 Reservists nationally.

The second column is identical except that it assumes Perrin Beatty's 1987 volunteer force of 90,000.  That would put 533 bodies on the strength of each armoury.

For comparison the same community of 224, 852 supports 749 volunteer fire fighters.

It also supports 154 paid fire fighters and 395 full time police officers.

The vehicle list of 20 is based on all the 1 ton Milverados, all the 8 ton MilCOTS MSVS, and all the TAPVs going to the Militia.  It also includes the planned Domestic LUV (4 tonne capacity) as well as the planned Domestic Common Heavy Equipment Replacement kit.

Essentially the average armoury would  store 6x Milverados, 4x 4 tonners, 5x 8 tonners, a couple of specialised 8 tonners from an assortment of half a dozen types, 1 of 3 different pieces of CHER equipment and 3x TAPVs.


Avg Community per Armoury224,852224,852Police per Armoury395395Fire (Pd) per Armoury154154Fire (Vol) per Armoury749749Avg Reservists per Armoury112533Milverados per Armoury66Lt Dom-4T22TCV-MilCOTs per Armoury55Spec-MilCOTs per Armoury22CHER per Armoury11TAPVs per Armoury33Vehicles per Armoury2020Reservists per Vehicle627





The rest of the story


Reserve Footprint24 Naval Reserve Divisions in 24 communities43 Air Force Locations169 Armouries in 117 communities across Canada185 Ranger patrols in over 200 remote communities185 Ranger patrols in over 200 remote communitiesRangers5,200Avg Rangers per Patrol28169 Armouries in 117 communities across CanadaCanadian Population38,000,00038,000,000Reservists19,000Current90,000Beatty '87Fire (Vol)126,650126,650Fire (Paid)26,00026,000Police66,74866,748Reservists as ppm of population5002,368Fire (Vol) as ppm of population3,3333,333Fire (Paid) as ppm of population684684Police as ppm of population1,7571,757Avg Community Population (117 Communities)324,786324,786Avg Reservists per Community162769Fire (Vol) per Community1,0821,082Fire (Pd) per Community222222Police per Community570570Avg Community per Armoury (169 Armouries)224,852224,852Police per Armoury395395Fire (Pd) per Armoury154154Fire (Vol) per Armoury749749Avg Reservists per Armoury112533Milverados per Armoury66Lt Dom-4T22TCV-MilCOTs per Armoury55Spec-MilCOTs per Armoury22CHER per Armoury11TAPVs per Armoury33Vehicles per Armoury2020Reservists per Vehicle627


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## blacktriangle (26 Nov 2021)

The old Aurora Armoury on Larmont St was turned into some kind of food & wine institute a couple years back.

New location:

Lieutenant-General, The Honourable John Graves Simcoe Armoury
215 Industrial Parkway South
Aurora, ON  L4G 3T9


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## lenaitch (26 Nov 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> By combining DAP's Wiki List and Blackadder's Treasury List I manage to create a list of 169 Armouries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not a comment on what you are up to (since I don't really know), but to throw a bit of a cloud over your list, best as I can tell, the Mulcaster St. armory (#5) isn't, and hasn't been since the late '40s.  It has been a lot of things but is current the Grey and Simcoe Foresters Regumental Museum.  I couldn't figure out who holds title.  Being one or two off likely won't mess your numbers, larger discrepencies might.


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Not a comment on what you are up to (since I don't really know), but to throw a bit of a cloud over your list, best as I can tell, the Mulcaster St. armory (#5) isn't, and hasn't been since the late '40s.  It has been a lot of things but is current the Grey and Simcoe Foresters Regumental Museum.  I couldn't figure out who holds title.  Being one or two off likely won't mess your numbers, larger discrepencies might.



Thanks for that Lenaitch. I appreciate the input.  I have found a few "dead letters" already.  With any luck at all, and input from folks like yourself we might be able to iterate our way to an accurate list.

Cheers.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Nov 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> By combining DAP's Wiki List and Blackadder's Treasury List I manage to create a list of 169 Armouries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Uh oh.... Menzies Drill Hall down!

The Armouries Drill Hall​The last of several 19th century military buildings in this location, the Armouries Drill Hall building was designed by William Ridgway-Wilson and completed in 1894. It was built for the 5th British Columbia Regiment of the Garrison Artillery, to be used both as a drill hall and as a social meeting place. The most notable soldier to parade in the building was General Sir Arthur W. Currie, who began as a gunner in Victoria and rose in rank to commander in the Canadian Corps in France during World War I.

The Armouries Drill Hall was turned over to the provincial government in 1921 and subsequently housed the provincial police department and the motor vehicle branch. It currently contains offices for Legislative Assembly staff and several media outlets.
The building faces Menzies Street and is located in the southeast corner of the Legislative Precinct.










						Armouries Drill Hall
					






					www.leg.bc.ca


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## Kilted (27 Nov 2021)

Some of the entries on that list count different buildings at the same location as separate Armouries.

Number 53 is also blank.


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## dapaterson (27 Nov 2021)

Kilted said:


> Some of the entries on that list count different buildings at the same location as separate Armouries.
> 
> Number 53 is also blank.


Obviously CANSOF reserves, then.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

OK

Time to start picking Ladies and Gents.     I believe I am getting closer.  I appreciate all the input and I look forwards to any additional corrections


CBG ItemArmouryCommunityPrTBC Property #DivisionCBGLodger1Colonel St John ArmouryChilliwack, BCBCProperty 164393​39​39 CER1Colonel St John ArmouryChilliwack, BCBCProperty 164403​39​39 Svc Bn1Colonel St John ArmouryChilliwack, BCBCProperty 164403​39​RWestmR2Seal Bay ArmouryCourtenay, BCBC3​39​CanScots3JR Vicars ArmouryKamloops, BCBCProperty 322723​39​RMtnR4Brigadier Angle ArmouryKelowna, BCBCProperty 186373​39​BCD5Brigadier D.R. Sargent ArmouryNanaimo, BCBC3​39​5 (BC) Fd RCA5Brigadier D.R. Sargent ArmouryNanaimo, BCBC3​39​39 Sigs Rgt B Sqn 1 Tp5Brigadier D.R. Sargent ArmouryNanaimo, BCBC3​39​CanScots6The Royal Westminster Regiment ArmouryNew Westminster, BCBCProperty 170083​39​RWestmR7Lt. Col. James Pemberton Fell (J.P. Fell) ArmouryVancouver, BCBCProperty 168723​39​39 CER 6 Sqn8Meadow ArmouryPrince George, BCBCProperty 703013​39​RMtnR9The Sherman ArmouryRichmond, BCBCProperty 167493​39​39 Svc Bn10Cranbrook ArmouryCranbrook BCBC3​39​39 CER 44 Sqn11Trail ArmouryTrail, BCBCProperty 163133​39​39 CER 44 Sqn12Major General HoffmeisterVancouver, BCBC3​39​39 Bde HQ12Major General HoffmeisterVancouver, BCBC3​39​39 Svc Bn12Major General HoffmeisterVancouver, BCBC3​39​39 Sigs Rgt12Major General HoffmeisterVancouver, BCBC3​6 Int Coy 4 Pl13Seaforth ArmouryVancouver, BCBCProperty 168733​39​Seaforths13Seaforth ArmouryVancouver, BCBCProperty 16873CFHSG1 HSG12 (Vancouver) Fd Amb14Beatty Street Drill HallVancouver, BCBCProperty 168743​39​BCR15Bessborough ArmouryVancouver, BCBC3​39​15 Fd RCA16Brigadier Murphy ArmouryVernon, BCBCProperty 186803​39​BCD17Lt. General E. C. Ashton ArmouryVictoria, BCBC522543​39​39 Svc Bn17Lt. General E. C. Ashton ArmouryVictoria, BCBC522553​39​39 Sigs Rgt B Sqn 2 Tp17Lt. General E. C. Ashton ArmouryVictoria, BCBC52256CFHSG1 HSG11 (Victoria) Fd Amb18Bay Street Drill Hall[34] at McBride StreetVictoria, BCBCProperty 173373​39​5 (BC) Fd RCA18Bay Street Drill Hall[34] at McBride StreetVictoria, BCBCProperty 173373​39​CanScots1LGen Stan Waters BuildingCalgary, ABAB3​41​41 Bde HQ2General Sir Arthur Currie BuildingCalgary, ABAB3​41​41 CER 33 Sqn2General Sir Arthur Currie BuildingCalgary, ABAB3​41​41 Svc Bn 14 Svc Coy3Mewata Drill Hall / Calgary Drill HallCalgary, ABABProperty 152023​41​Calg Highrs3Mewata Drill Hall / Calgary Drill HallCalgary, ABABProperty 152023​41​KOCR3Mewata Drill Hall / Calgary Drill HallCalgary, ABABProperty 15202CFHSG1 HSG15 (Edmonton) Fd Amb3Mewata Drill Hall / Calgary Drill HallCalgary, ABABProperty 152023​6 Int Coy 7 Pl4Lieutenant Colonel Philip Debney ArmouryEdmonton, ABABProperty 700423​41​20 Fd RCA 61 Bty4Lieutenant Colonel Philip Debney ArmouryEdmonton, ABABProperty 700423​41​41 CER4Lieutenant Colonel Philip Debney ArmouryEdmonton, ABABProperty 700423​41​41 Sigs4Lieutenant Colonel Philip Debney ArmouryEdmonton, ABABProperty 700423​41​41 Svc Bn 15 Svc Coy5Brig. James Curry Jefferson ArmouryEdmonton, ABAB3​41​SALH B Sqn5Brig. James Curry Jefferson ArmouryEdmonton, ABAB3​41​LER5Brig. James Curry Jefferson ArmouryEdmonton, ABAB3​6 Int Coy 6 Pl5Brig. James Curry Jefferson ArmouryEdmonton, ABABCFHSG1 HSG15 (Edmonton) Fd Amb6Patterson ArmouryMedicine Hat, ABABProperty 149553​41​SALH A Sqn7Vimy Ridge ArmouryLethbridge, ABAB3​41​SALH A Sqn 3 Tp7Vimy Ridge ArmouryLethbridge, ABAB3​41​20 Ind Fd Bty8Cormack ArmouryRed Deer, ABABProperty 153353​41​20 Fd RCA 78 Bty8Cormack ArmouryRed Deer, ABABProperty 153353​41​41 Sigs9Yellowknife ArmouryYellowknife, NTNT3​41​LER C Coy1Colonel D. V. Currie VC ArmouryMoose Jaw, SKSKProperty 138213​38​Sask D2Prince Albert ArmouryPrince Albert, SKSKProperty 144533​38​NSaskR B Coy3Regina ArmouryRegina, SKSKProperty 137213​38​10 Fd RCA3Regina ArmouryRegina, SKSKProperty 137213​38​RRR3Regina ArmouryRegina, SKSKProperty 137213​38​38 Svc Bn 16 Svc Coy3Regina ArmouryRegina, SKSKProperty 13721CFHSG1 HSG16 (Regina) Fd Amb4Sgt Hugh Cairns VC ArmourySaskatoon, SKSKProperty 141713​38​38 CER4Sgt Hugh Cairns VC ArmourySaskatoon, SKSKProperty 141713​38​NSaskR4Sgt Hugh Cairns VC ArmourySaskatoon, SKSKProperty 141713​38​38 Svc Bn4Sgt Hugh Cairns VC ArmourySaskatoon, SKSKCFHSG1 HSG16 (Regina) Fd Amb5Yorkton ArmouryYorkton, SKSKProperty 139543​38​10 Fd RCA6Brandon ArmouryBrandon, MBMBProperty 124543​38​26 Fd RCA7Portage la Prairie ArmouryPortage la Prairie, MBMBProperty 125253​38​26 Fd RCA8Minto ArmouryWinnipeg, MBMBProperty 126933​38​38 Sigs8Minto ArmouryWinnipeg, MBMBProperty 126933​38​RWpgR8Minto ArmouryWinnipeg, MBMBProperty 126933​38​QOCH of C8Minto ArmouryWinnipeg, MBMBProperty 126933​38​38 Sve Bn 17 Svc Coy8Minto ArmouryWinnipeg, MBMBProperty 12693CFHSG1 HSG17 (Winnipeg) Fd Amb9McGregor ArmouryWinnipeg, MBMB3​38​FGH9McGregor ArmouryWinnipeg, MBMB3​38​38 CER 31 Sqn12Kenora ArmouryKenora, ONONProperty 574003​38​116 Ind Fd RCA13O'Kelly VC ArmouryThunder Bay, ONONProperty 119643​38​38 Sigs 3 Sqn13O'Kelly VC ArmouryThunder Bay, ONONProperty 119643​38​LSSR13O'Kelly VC ArmouryThunder Bay, ONONProperty 119643​38​38 Sve Bn 18 Svc Coy13O'Kelly VC ArmouryThunder Bay, ONONProperty 11964CFHSG1 HSG18 (Thunder Bay) Fd Amb1Barrie ArmouryBarrie, ONONProperty 110544​31​G&S Foresters2Burlington ArmouryBurlington, ONON4​31​RHLI3Col J.A. McIntosh DSO EDGalt, Cambridge, ONONProperty 105044​31​RHF of C4Col E.M. Ansell OBE MC VDChatham ONONProperty 700854​31​E&K Scots5Guelph ArmouryGuelph, ONONProperty 102114​31​11 Fd RCA6John Weir Foote ArmouryHamilton, ONONProperty 103044​31​31 Sigs6John Weir Foote ArmouryHamilton, ONONProperty 103044​31​11 Fd RCA 11 Bty6John Weir Foote ArmouryHamilton, ONONProperty 103044​31​RHLI6John Weir Foote ArmouryHamilton, ONONProperty 103044​31​31 Svc Bn7Kitchener ArmouryKitchener, ONONProperty 105144​31​RHF of C8Wolseley BarracksON4​31​1 H8Wolseley BarracksON4​31​4 RCR8Wolseley BarracksON4​31​31 Svc Bn8Wolseley BarracksONCFHSG4 HSG23 Fd Amb9Tommy Holmes VC Memorial Armoury 858-10th Street EastOwen Sound, ONONProperty 109974​31​G&S Foresters10Sarnia ArmourySarnia, ONONProperty 292254​31​1 H11St. Thomas ArmourySt. Thomas, ONONProperty 106054​31​31 CER 7 Sqn12Stratford ArmouryStratford, ONONProperty 105584​31​4 RCR13Parkside DrWaterloo, ONONProperty 703284​31​31 CER 48 Sqn14Maj FA Tilson VC ArmouryWindsor, ONONProperty 583924​31​Windsor R14Maj FA Tilson VC ArmouryWindsor, ONONProperty 583924​31​E&K Scots14Maj FA Tilson VC ArmouryWindsor, ONONProperty 583924​31​31 Svc Bn14Maj FA Tilson VC ArmouryWindsor, ONONProperty 58392CFHSG4 HSG23 Fd Amb1Lt Gen The Hon John Graves Simcoe ArmouryAurora, ONONProperty 701574​32​QYR2Brampton ArmouryBrampton, ONONProperty 101844​32​Lorne Scots3Sgt William Merrifield VC ArmouryBrantford, ONONProperty 104914​32​56 Fd RCA4Col J.R. Barber ArmouryGeorgetown, OntarioONProperty 523134​32​Lorne Scots5LCol Samuel G. Beckett ArmouryMississauga, ONONProperty 702974​32​Tor Scots6Oakville ArmouryOakville, ONONProperty 102414​32​Lorne Scots7Dalton ArmouryScarborough ONONProperty 700924​32​QORC8Simcoe ArmourySimcoe, ONONProperty 584134​32​56 Fd RCA 69 Bty9St. Catharines ArmourySt. Catharines, ONONProperty 104124​32​56 Fd RCA 10 Bty9St. Catharines ArmourySt. Catharines, ONONProperty 104124​32​Lincs & Welland10Captain Bellenden Hutcheson VC ArmouryEtobicoke ONONProperty 700964​32​Tor Scots11Moss Park ArmouryToronto, ONONProperty 100024​32​7 Fd RCA11Moss Park ArmouryToronto, ONONProperty 100024​32​QORC11Moss Park ArmouryToronto, ONONProperty 100024​32​48th Hldrs of C11Moss Park ArmouryToronto, ONONProperty 10002CFHSG4 HSG25 Fd Amb12Fort York ArmouryToronto, ONON4​32​QYR12Fort York ArmouryToronto, ONON4​32​32 Sigs12Fort York ArmouryToronto, ONON4​32​RRC13LCol George Taylor Denison III ArmouryToronto, ONON4​32​GGHG13LCol George Taylor Denison III ArmouryToronto, ONON4​32​32 CER13LCol George Taylor Denison III ArmouryToronto, ONON4​32​32 Svc Bn13LCol George Taylor Denison III ArmouryToronto, ONON4​2 Int Coy14Welland ArmouryWelland, ONON4​32​Lincs & Welland1Belleville ArmouryBelleville, ONONProperty 095284​33​H & PER2Brockville ArmouryBrockville, ONONProperty 091504​33​Brockville R3Cobourg ArmouryCobourg, ONONProperty 700164​33​H & PER4Cornwall ArmouryCornwall, ONONProperty 084744​33​SD &GH5Kingston Drill HallKingston, ONONProperty 094464​33​PWOR5Martin Leo Troy ArmouryNorth Bay, ONON4​33​Alg R6Colonel R. S. McLaughlin ArmouryOshawa, ONONProperty 098304​33​Ont R7Cartier Square Drill HallOttawa, ONONProperty 087914​33​GGFG7Cartier Square Drill HallOttawa, ONONProperty 087914​33​CHoO8Major E. J. G. Holland VC ArmouryOttawa, ONON4​33​33 CER8Major E. J. G. Holland VC ArmouryOttawa, ONON4​33​33 Sigs8Major E. J. G. Holland VC ArmouryOttawa, ONON4​33​33 Svc Bn9Morrison Artillery ParkOttawa, ONON4​33​30 Fd RCA10Leonforte ArmouryOrleans, ONON4​33​33 CER11Pembroke ArmouryPembroke, ONONProperty 095324​33​42 Fd RCA12Peterborough Drill Hall[25]Peterborough, ONONProperty 097204​33​H & PER13Sault Ste Marie ArmourySault Ste. Marie, ONONProperty 118484​33​49 Fd RCA14Sudbury ArmourySudbury, ONONProperty 116364​33​IRoC15Timmins ArmouryTimmins, ONONProperty 117144​33​Alg R16Alta VistaOttawa, ONON4​33​33 Bde HQ16Alta VistaOttawa, ONONCFHSG4 HSG28 Fd Amb16Alta VistaOttawa, ONON4​7 Int Coy1Salaberry ArmouryGatineau, QCQCProperty 076042​34​RdeHull2Charles Michel de Salaberry ArmouryLaval, QCQCProperty 696072​34​4 R22eR3The Esplanade Canadian Grenadier Guards’ ArmouryMontréal, QCQCProperty 070692​34​CGG4Bleury Street Black Watch ArmouryMontréal, QCQCProperty 070852​34​RHRoC5Côte des Neiges ArmouryMontréal, QCQCProperty 070872​34​RCH5Côte des Neiges ArmouryMontréal, QCQCProperty 070872​34​2 Fd RCA6Cathcart Street ArmouryMontréal, QCQCProperty 070892​34​R d Mais7Longue-Pointe GarrisonMontréal, QCQC2​4 Int Coy7Longue-Pointe GarrisonMontréal, QCQC2​34​34 CER8Westmount ArmouryMontréal, QCQCProperty 071572​34​34 Sigs8Westmount ArmouryMontréal, QCQCProperty 071572​34​R Montreal R8BullionMontréal, QCQCCFHSG4 HSG51 Fd Amb9Manège Henri-JulienMontréal, QCQC2​34​Fus Mont-Royal10St-Hubert GarrisonSt-HubertQC2​34​34 Svc Bn11Laframboise Street ArmourySaint-Hyacinthe, QCQCProperty 065842​34​6 R22eR12St-Louis Street ArmouryDrummondville, QCQCProperty 064042​34​6 R22eR13Rouyn ArmouryRouyn-Noranda, QCQCProperty 077372​34​34 CER1Alouette ArmouryAlouette, QCQC2​35​R du Saguenay2Shenley ArmouryBeauceville, QCQCProperty 059912​35​R de la Chaudiere3Beauport Armoury or Building 1Beauport QCQCProperty 058772​35​35 Sigs4Chicoutimi ArmouryChicoutimiQCProperty 699202​35​R du Saguenay5Lévis ArmouryLévis, QCQCProperty 059282​35​6 Fd RCA5Lévis ArmouryLévis, QCQCProperty 059282​35​R de la Chaudiere6Matane ArmouryMatane, QCQCProperty 053932​35​Fus du St-L6Montmagny ArmouryMontmagny, QCQCProperty 056472​35​6 Fd RCA7Val-Belair ArmouryQuébec, QCQC2​35​6 Fd RCA8Les Voltigeurs de Québec Military ComplexQuébec, QCQCProperty 703052​35​35 CER8Les Voltigeurs de Québec Military ComplexQuébec, QCQCProperty 703062​35​Volt d Q8Les Voltigeurs de Québec Military ComplexQuébec, QCQCProperty 703062​35​35 Sigs9St-Malo Military ComplexQuébec, QCQC2​35​35 Svc Bn9St-Malo Military ComplexQuébec, QCQCCFHSG4 HSG55 Fd Amb10Rimouski ArmouryRimouski, QCQCProperty 054412​35​Fus du St-L11Rivière-du-Loup ArmouryRivière-du-Loup, QCQCProperty 695242​35​Fus du St-L12Shawinigan ArmouryShawinigan, QCQC2​35​62 Fd RCA13William Street ArmourySherbrooke, QCQCProperty 063172​35​Sher H13William Street ArmourySherbrooke, QCQCProperty 06317CFHSG4 HSG52 Fd Amb14Colonel Gaétan Côté ArmourySherbrooke, QCQCProperty 063182​35​Fus de Sherbrooke14Colonel Gaétan Côté ArmourySherbrooke, QCQCProperty 063182​35​35 Sigs15Général Jean-Victor Allard ArmouryTrois-Rivières, QCQCProperty 064312​35​12 RBC(M)1Willow Park ArmouryHalifax, NSNSProperty 029155​3 Int Coy1Willow Park ArmouryHalifax, NSNSProperty 029145​36​36 Sigs1Willow Park ArmouryHalifax, NSNSProperty 029155​36​36 Svc Bn1Willow Park ArmouryHalifax, NSNSProperty 02915CFHSG4 HSG33 Fd Amb2Queen Street ArmouryHalifax, NSNSProperty 029145​36​36 Bde HQ3Windsor Park ArmouriesHalifax, NSNSProperty 029155​36​PLF3Windsor Park ArmouriesHalifax, NSNSProperty 029155​36​Hfx Rifles41st (Halifax-Dartmouth) Field Artillery Regiment ArmouriesHalifax, NSNSProperty 029165​36​1 Fd RCA5Marconi ArmouryGlace Bay NSNSProperty 036905​36​36 Sigs6ShearwaterHalifax, NSNSProperty 029175​36​36 CER7AldershotAldershot, NSNS5​36​WNSR8Middleton ArmouryMiddleton, NSNSProperty 026125​36​WNSR9Bridgewater ArmouryBridgewater, NSNS5​36​WNSR10Fort Edward ArmouryWindsor, NSNSProperty 573585​36​WNSR11New Glasgow ArmouryNew Glasgow, NSNSProperty 032885​36​NSH12Col Welsford MacDonald ArmouryPictou, NSNSProperty 032685​36​NSH13LCol Daniel J Murray ArmourySpringhill NSNSProperty 327715​36​NSH14Truro ArmouryTruro, NSNSProperty 031305​36​NSH15Victoria Park ArmourySydney, NSNS5​36​36 CER15Victoria Park ArmourySydney, NSNS5​36​36 Sigs15Victoria Park ArmourySydney, NSNS5​36​CBHldrs15Victoria Park ArmourySydney, NSNS5​36​36 Svc Bn15Victoria Park ArmourySydney, NSNSCFHSG4 HSG35 Fd Amb16Port Hawkesbury ArmouryPort Hawkesbury, NSNS5​36​CBHldrs17Queen Charlotte ArmouryCharlottetown, PEPEProperty 020295​36​36 Sigs17Queen Charlotte ArmouryCharlottetown, PEPEProperty 020295​36​PEIR18Summerside ArmourySummerside, PEPE5​36​PEiR1Col CC Gammon ArmouryBathurst, NBNBProperty 584875​37​NS(NB)R2WO 1st Class Wilbert Findley McRae ArmouryCampbellton, NBNBProperty 048275​37​NS(NB)R3Master Corporal Charles (Chuck) Michaud ArmouryEdmundston, NBNBProperty 699045​37​RNBR4Carlton Street ArmouryFredericton, NBNBProperty 046765​37​37 CER4Carlton Street ArmouryFredericton, NBNBProperty 046765​37​RNBR5Lieutenant Colonel William (Billy) MulherinGrand Falls, NBNBProperty 308725​37​RNBR6LCol William George Stothart ArmouryMiramichi, NBNBProperty 046085​37​NS(NB)R7Moncton GarrisonNB5​37​37 Bde HQ7Moncton GarrisonNB5​37​8 CH (PL)7Moncton GarrisonNB5​37​NS(NB)R8Sussex ArmouryNB5​37​8 CH (PL)9Barrack Green ArmouryNB5​37​3 Fd RCA9Barrack Green ArmouryNB5​37​37 Sigs9Barrack Green ArmouryNB5​37​RNBR9Barrack Green ArmouryNB5​37​37 Svc Bn9Barrack Green ArmouryNBCFHSG4 HSG35 Fd Amb10Winslow ArmouryWoodstock, NBNBProperty 047175​37​3 Fd RCA11Gallipoli ArmouryCorner Brook, NLNLProperty 009125​37​2 RNfldR12Cambrai ArmouryStephenville, NLNL5​37​2 RNfldR13Beaumont Hamel ArmouryGrand Falls-Windsor, NLNLProperty 010085​37​2 RNfldR14Surgeon Lieutenant-Commander W. Anthony Paddon BuildingSt. John's, NLNL5​37​37 CER14Surgeon Lieutenant-Commander W. Anthony Paddon BuildingSt. John's, NLNL5​37​37 Sigs14Surgeon Lieutenant-Commander W. Anthony Paddon BuildingSt. John's, NLNL5​37​1 RNfldR14Surgeon Lieutenant-Commander W. Anthony Paddon BuildingSt. John's, NLNL5​37​37 Svc Bn14Surgeon Lieutenant-Commander W. Anthony Paddon BuildingSt. John's, NLNLCFHSG4 HSG35 Fd Amb


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

If That then This


OrganizationArmouriesRecruiting PopulationPop/ArmouryCanadian Army Reserve Force14438,300,000265,9723 Cdn Div4012,400,000310,00039 CBG185,200,000288,88941 CBG94,400,000488,88938 CBG132,800,000215,3854 Cdn Div4414,800,000336,36431 CBG1432 CBG1433 CBG162 Cdn Div288,600,000307,14334 CBG1335 CBG155 Cdn Div322,500,00078,12536 CBG181,300,00072,22237 CBG141,200,00085,714


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

One thing I do notice is that the Sigs are pretty itinerant.  They seem to slot in anywhere they can find a roof.  Sometimes they collocate with the Navy and sometimes, as in Saskatoon, they find their own satellite property.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (27 Nov 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> One thing I do notice is that the Sigs are pretty itinerant.  They seem to slot in anywhere they can find a roof.  Sometimes they collocate with the Navy and sometimes, as in Saskatoon, they find their own satellite property.



And why not?  If they co-locate with an average size Naval Reserve Unit, they instantly gain access to about 20-25 more signalers and 2 to 4 comm officers.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> And why not?  If they co-locate with an average size Naval Reserve Unit, they instantly gain access to about 20-25 more signalers and 2 to 4 comm officers.



Once upon a time the Comm Squads were above all this petty service rivalry.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

Added some information - median ages and the area served by an armoury

If it looks as if Ontario has shrunk it is because it has ceded half of its territory (The North West) to Western Canada and 3 Cdn Div.  3 Cdn Div is also responsible for 1 CRPG so its Recruiting Area is actually about 7,300,000 km2.


OrganizationArmouriesRecruiting PopulationPop/ArmouryProvincial AgeArea km2km2/ArmouryCanadian Army Reserve Force14438,300,000265,9721 CRPG1127,00037.7/35.8/26.53,921,4433,921,4433 Cdn Div4012,400,000310,0003,432,69785,81739 CBG185,200,000288,88942.3944,73552,48541 CBG94,400,000488,88937.9661,84873,53938 CBG132,800,000215,38538.1/37.81,826,114140,4704 Cdn Div4414,800,000336,36440.7549,58312,49131 CBG1432 CBG1433 CBG162 Cdn Div288,600,000307,143431,668,00059,57134 CBG1335 CBG155 Cdn Div322,500,00078,125539,06416,84636 CBG181,300,00072,22245/42.460,9443,38637 CBG141,200,00085,71446.2/47.8478,12034,151


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## Kilted (27 Nov 2021)

So which city is the largest city in Canada without an armoury?


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## Kilted (27 Nov 2021)

Dalton Armoury now belongs to 32 CBG Battle School, it's actually a different building than the one that was closed down that was used by the QOR.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

Kilted said:


> So which city is the largest city in Canada without an armoury?



Don't know for sure but you might want to look at Grande Prairie, Fort McMurray and Lloydminster as candidates.  Maybe even High Level.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

Kilted said:


> Dalton Armoury now belongs to 32 CBG Battle School, it's actually a different building than the one that was closed down that was used by the QOR.



Thanks for that.


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## OldTanker (27 Nov 2021)

Neither Surrey (517,000) nor Burnaby (232,00) in BC have armouries.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

OldTanker said:


> Neither Surrey (517,000) nor Burnaby (232,00) in BC have armouries.


 On the other hand both are well connected in the Greater Vancouver Area to a number of armouries.

Some other parts of the country are less well-endowed.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Nov 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> On the other hand both are well connected in the Greater Vancouver Area to a number of armouries.
> 
> Some other parts of the country are less well-endowed.



The great irony is that the CAF plowed tens of millions into a new armoury based on the Seaforths, in downtown Vancouver, who consistently parade amongst the fewest troops in the Bde. Few in downtown Vancouver are really interested in joining the Army. This was clearly a shameless political move.

They would have been smarter to invest in building infrastructure in the faster growing parts of the Lower Mainland, like Surrey (the third largest city in BC with a large percentage of 'fighting age male/females'), where there is currently zero military presence/infrastructure.


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## dapaterson (27 Nov 2021)

As noted in other threads, heritage buildings are largely unsuitable, and expensive to maintain.

But the fight to keep them (Halifax, I'm looking at you) saps money from the Defence budget that should be invested in growth instead.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The great irony is that the CAF plowed tens of millions into a new armoury based on the Seaforths, in downtown Vancouver, who consistently parade amongst the fewest troops in the Bde. Few in downtown Vancouver are really interested in joining the Army. This was clearly a shameless political move.
> 
> They would have been smarter to invest in building infrastructure in the faster growing parts of the Lower Mainland, like Surrey (the third largest city in BC with a large percentage of 'fighting age male/females'), where there is currently zero military presence/infrastructure.



You want to talk about inconsistency? I offer the Maritimes vs Alberta.


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## FJAG (27 Nov 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The great irony is that the CAF plowed tens of millions into a new armoury based on the Seaforths, in downtown Vancouver, who consistently parade amongst the fewest troops in the Bde. Few in downtown Vancouver are really interested in joining the Army. This was clearly a shameless political move.
> 
> They would have been smarter to invest in building infrastructure in the faster growing parts of the Lower Mainland, like Surrey (the third largest city in BC with a large percentage of 'fighting age male/females'), where there is currently zero military presence/infrastructure.


Same back in Toronto in the mid sixties. They sold off a large old armory downtown (University Armory) to make room for a new courts complex and built a brand new one in the middle of a bunch of rooming houses, missions and shacks of ill repute at Queen and Jarvis (Moss Park Armoury) while the population boom was going on in the east in Scarborough where I lived. It took me an hour to get there on a bus, transfer to streetcar, transfer to subway, transfer to another subway, transfer to a another street car.

😓


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## dapaterson (27 Nov 2021)

You say missions and houses of ill repute, I say prime recruiting territory for the infantry.


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## FJAG (27 Nov 2021)

dapaterson said:


> You say missions and houses of ill repute, I say prime recruiting territory for the infantry.


Not at this level. 

You never were at Queen and Jarvis in the sixties, were you? It's been spruced up quite a bit since then. It was a regular little hell hole then. There was a big open area of grass next door (calling it a park would have been far to kind). Every morning on my recruit course we would do morning PT by running around the park in formation doing steeple jumps over the homeless folks that had passed out in the dirt after being evicted from the mission houses while the trollops would cheer us on from their second storey windows.

Fun times.

😉


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## dapaterson (27 Nov 2021)

Armouries in Montreal (R de Mais, in particular) enter the conversation.


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## Kilted (28 Nov 2021)

FJAG said:


> Not at this level.
> 
> You never were at Queen and Jarvis in the sixties, were you? It's been spruced up quite a bit since then. It was a regular little hell hole then. There was a big open area of grass next door (calling it a park would have been far to kind). Every morning on my recruit course we would do morning PT by running around the park in formation doing steeple jumps over the homeless folks that had passed out in the dirt after being evicted from the mission houses while the trollops would cheer us on from their second storey windows.
> 
> ...


It's still pretty bad.  Someone decided to turn it into a homeless shelter a couple of winters ago.  They completely destroyed some of the washrooms.  I think that they are still fixing them.  The fence that has been put up has done wonders.


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## dimsum (28 Nov 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> They would have been smarter to invest in building infrastructure in the faster growing parts of the Lower Mainland, like Surrey (the third largest city in BC with a large percentage of 'fighting age male/females'), where there is currently zero military presence/infrastructure.


I'm actually shocked that hasn't happened, or at least have X Coy of [insert units] there.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Nov 2021)

dimsum said:


> I'm actually shocked that hasn't happened, or at least have X Coy of [insert units] there.



Some units have tried to start up 'outlying companies' in space shared with cadet organizations in the Surrey area, but I don't think that's gone very well. 

Mainly because it's not at all supported by the Army with the infrastructure, position numbers, and the whole gamut of other things it takes to stand up and sustain a sub-unit. It was a fight from the start, which is not how the whole experience should have actually played out, of course.


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## FormerHorseGuard (28 Nov 2021)

The Lanark and Renfrew Scottish Regiment now 42nd FD RCA use to parade in Perth, Carleton Place, Renfrew, Smiths Falls, and Pembroke. The unit was down sized to just Pembroke,  Renfrew Armouries were sold off to local group.  Perth Ontario armouries is now Asbury Free Methodist Church. Smiths Falls armouries has interesting past.  The building has a colourful history. It once housed a speakeasy in the basement which was followed by a chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous.  On the main floors it went from being a post office to an armoury to a girls’ high school to office space. ( Buinessman honoured for post office restoration )  In the 60s there was parade held at the Renfrew Armouries, 9 ranks of men the parade square, 450 plus men shoulder to shoulder. Never saw numbers like that since.


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## Kirkhill (28 Nov 2021)

Denmark is a country of 5.8 million.  It can organize 46,651 volunteers in support of the military.

In Canada's case, with 38 million that would equate to 301,379 volunteers

Like every other voluntary group they get varying levels of participation with about 30% considered to be reliable, or Active and the remainder considered to be a Reserve entity that would probably turnout in the event of a flood or an invasion when daily routine is disrupted.

10% are considered to be sufficiently reliable that they are assigned military support tasks and are issued operational kit that they keep with them at home.  That includes rifles.

300,000 volunteers available for emergencies, vetted, minimally trained. 
100,000 volunteers available for occasional callout for special events
30,000 reliable, operational volunteers 

With 150 armouries that would result in 2,000 volunteers on the rolls of each armoury, capable of producing up to 700 volunteers for special events and 200 armed, operational volunteers to support local forces with military capabilities.


> The Army​The total strength of the Danish Army is approximately 7000-9000 professional troops, excluding conscripts undergoing basic training. In addition the army has a number of reservists attached and the ability to, within a short span of time, mobilize additional prepared light forces.



A Canadian equivalent professional Army would be in the neighbourhood of 53,000 Trained Effectives available for foreign deployment.









						The Army
					

The total strength of the Danish Army is approximately 7000-9000 professional troops, excluding conscripts undergoing basic training. In addition the army has a number of reservists attached and the ability to, within a short span of time, mobilize additional prepared light forces.




					www.forsvaret.dk
				












						The Danish Armed Forces
					

The Danish Armed Forces maintain the sovereignty of Denmark as well as Greenland and the Faroe Islands, and are part of Danish society's overall readiness in the event of national crises and disasters.   Internationally Denmark has a longstanding tradition for participating in military...




					www.forsvaret.dk
				




Their Armed Forces are organized into an Army, a Navy, an Air Force, a Special Operations Command and a Joint Arctic Command as well as the separate Home Guard.

Norway and Sweden follow a similar pattern.

I know the Army keeps wondering about the value of volunteers.  But the Canadian Rangers make it work.  And this:












						Data on Giving, Volunteering and Participating in Canada - Research and Policy - Volunteer Canada
					






					volunteer.ca
				




The big thing about volunteers is that they are volunteering.  You can't give volunteers orders.  You have to accept what they are willing to give.

And the other big thing that Sam Hughes got right is that it is a social thing - in that it is one of many elements available to tie society together, to each other and to the government.

$217,912,613 – Cadets & Junior Rangers
9668 Reserves Supporting Cadets





__





						Vice Chief of the Defence Staff  - Canada.ca
					

March 2020 - Essential information to familiarize the Minister with the Department.




					www.canada.ca
				












						GC InfoBase
					

The GC InfoBase is the government’s interactive data-visualization tool, which transforms complex financial, people, and results data into simple, visual stories. Discover how much the federal government spent, how many people we employed, and what results we achieved.




					www.tbs-sct.gc.ca
				




I can't find the budget for the Canadian Rangers 



			https://www.naadsn.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Rangers-Success-Metrics-Lackenbauer-Kikkert-upload.pdf
		


But I think that there is a role for a Homeguard/Canadian Rangers/Adult Cadet type organization within the Canadian Defence Structure - probably not as a sub-component of the Army, but certainly within DND.


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## Kirkhill (28 Nov 2021)

Here's another Auxiliary/Volunteer model - this one is made in Canada (RCMP)  - Three tiers requiring 60, 120 or 180 hours of commitment a year (approximately 6, 12 or 18 days of service - these are broadly consistent with Class A service and the Ranger commitment (Rangers get 12 days pay annually).



> Auxiliary Program​Learn more​
> One House at a Time program helps victims of property crime feel safe again
> RCMP launches new Auxiliary program for volunteers
> What is it?​The Auxiliary Program was introduced in 1963 to enhance community policing and crime prevention initiatives. Auxiliaries give their time to help keep our communities safe, and the RCMP values these volunteers greatly and considers them a vital part of the organization.
> ...





> Auxiliary Program tiers​The chart below details the three different levels of service each province can choose from for its respective Auxiliary Program.
> 
> 
> Tier 1Tier 2Tier 3Activities
> ...



See also the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary, various Search and Rescue organizations, St John's Ambulance and Volunteer Fire Departments for concepts on how to manage Volunteers.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Nov 2021)

The one thing I try to remind organisations of, is that volunteers don't work for free. Everyone volunteers for a reason/need and the question you need to ask is: 'What is it they want and can we give it to them?". Some will settle for a thank you, others want to sit back and watch things happen and get an internal satisfaction. Others want to be honoured and recognised. Your volunteer support and reward program needs to be flexible to accommodate these different needs.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Nov 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The one thing I try to remind organisations of, is that volunteers don't work for free. Everyone volunteers for a reason/need and the question you need to ask is: 'What is it they want and can we give it to them?". Some will settle for a thank you, others want to sit back and watch things happen and get an internal satisfaction. Others want to be honoured and recognised. Your volunteer support and reward program needs to be flexible to accommodate these different needs.



There's a model for that....

Katimavik’s mission is to develop diverse youth as engaged, caring citizens and capable contributors and leaders for a better Canada.

Katimavik collaborates with other organizations to foster understanding, respect and reconciliation with Indigenous peoples and with Canada’s other diverse cultures, regions and the environment.

OUR VISION​Diverse, engaged and empowered youth working together to create just relationships and transform communities, the environment and themselves for a better Canada.









						WHO WE ARE – Katimavik
					

The Katimavik National Experience develops youth as engaged, caring citizens and capable contributors and leaders for a better Canada.




					katimavik.org


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## Kilted (29 Nov 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Here's another Auxiliary/Volunteer model - this one is made in Canada (RCMP)  - Three tiers requiring 60, 120 or 180 hours of commitment a year (approximately 6, 12 or 18 days of service - these are broadly consistent with Class A service and the Ranger commitment (Rangers get 12 days pay annually).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


St. John Ambulance, there is no s.


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## lenaitch (29 Nov 2021)

I have been both a volunteer and a board member of a registered charity that 'managed' volunteers.  It is such a broad category.  Agencies responsible for volunteers have to be cognizant of the liability their are accountable for and, in some cases, responsibilities under workers' compensation legislation.  It is generally accepted that so-called liability waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

The risk to the 'parent' organization, beyond the risk to things like reputation or image, is generally proportional to the risk (of the volunteer activity) to the public, and is (hopefully) proportional to their vetting, training and the rules/policies governing them.  That risk includes how tolerant the organization can be for a volunteer to 'be creative' in their activities.  It's an entirely different set of issues for somebody handing out pamphlets at a fair or serving at food bank than it is for auxiliary police, volunteer firefighters or SAR organizations.

Police auxiliaries and volunteer firefighters have their own internal and external command structures and are subject to the same legislation and policies of their professional counterparts.

While it is generally true that volunteers are unpaid (often with the exception of expenses), most if not all volunteer firefighters in Ontario are paid - something - when they are activated.   Although most are highly motivated and dedicated, one issue when considering an increased role for volunteers in public safety or domestic security roles is the impact on their paid employment or personal lives.   For example, to expect a primary response role of any length in a farming community during harvest or calving season might be unrealistic.

Edit to clarify:  Large police services have auxiliary organizational structures, ultimately managed by their parent service.  Small departments with only a handful of auxiliary members usually just fall under the chief or designee.


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