# Petition for State Funeral for last Great War Veteran (Trinity-Teflon sidetrack)



## Trinity (9 Nov 2006)

What if

1) the family doesn't agree to it
2) the individual doesn't agree to it

After working with vets in the past... I wonder how this would
go over at Sunnybrook.

I sort of agree on principle.. I like the sentiment.
However, I think the issue lies deeper than what it appears to be.


(Edited by Moderator to change title)


----------



## Pte_Martin (9 Nov 2006)

I agree with Trinty. I'm going to wait out until there is more info/and family consent that this is what they want


----------



## Teflon (9 Nov 2006)

http://www.dominion.ca/petition/

From the document itself:



> "We the undersigned feel enormous gratitude for the sacrifice made by all the Canadian Armed Forces through the ages in defence of this country and its values; acknowledge the very special nature of the sacrifice made by those who fought in the First World War in appalling conditions and with terrible loss of life; note that only three First World War veterans remain; and urge the Prime Minister that their sacrifice, and all of those they served with under arms from 1914-1918, be celebrated by offering a state funeral to the family of the last veteran of the First World War resident in Canada."



No one is going to go against a vets last wishes or the wishes of the vets surviving family, if you read the petition wording it clearly says that they be OFFERED a state funeral,... OFFERED not weather You like it or not!


----------



## Trinity (9 Nov 2006)

So.... how do we know if all three won't say no?

Quite possibly the entire peition could be an exercise in futility
if the families/vet says no?

Seems like more work for a petition, sign, submit, debate, etc...
if no one might want it.  Faster to ask the families involved......


----------



## Teflon (9 Nov 2006)

> So.... how do we know if all three won't say no?
> 
> Quite possibly the entire peition could be an exercise in futility
> if the families/vet says no?
> ...



One could have said the same thing about any endever,... I for one believe it's a worthy cause, you Trinity might find it waaaay too much work to click a link and go to the web sight and type in your name and click the sign petition button (because thats all they are asking YOU to do) but I don't think that is too much to ask.

Sign it, don't sign it,... do or don't do what you wish

Back in 1914 when they were asked to go over seas I wonder if any of them said, "seems like a lot of work,... we might not win,.... Quite possibly the entire war could be an exercise in futility etc, etc"


----------



## Pte_Martin (9 Nov 2006)

Trinity isn't saying it's had for him to sign it he's saying that all that work of making a petition, where a simple call/email to the family to see if they even want a Funeral, would be easier and the right thing to do


----------



## Trinity (9 Nov 2006)

Teflon.. cool the attitude.  Just because I'm exploring the idea doesn't 
mean you can get nasty.  

Have you worked in a veterans wing before?  NO?
I have at Sunnybrook.  And there are things going through
my head saying this can be both positive and negative about
this situation.

I look at things from the family's perspective many times because that's
the aspect I deal with.  I'm also trying to look at this from the veterans
perspective and see how this can positively and negatively affect them
which it will do both.

It's not just a simple matter of signing...  without researching any topic
or asking questions... you might as well put your signature on anything.

I've already received 2 pms on the matter of people who are feeling similarly.

Take a larger look at the situation and realize there may be other effects
to the situation.. which is what I am trying to do by exploring the topic.

And save the attitude for the parade square.


----------



## Teflon (9 Nov 2006)

Infantry_

How do you know that they didn't?  The effort that was made by these people and the lay out and the manner this information is laid out would indicate to me that they are fairly intelligent people and just might of come up with the idea of talking with the families, and veterns organizations before going to the trouble.

Did they? I don't know but the petition is already made so lets not bother to worry about "all that work" as you put it because others have already done it.


----------



## Pte_Martin (9 Nov 2006)

True, But it doesn't say anywhere that they did talk to the family and the way that they say 
Quote
"We the undersigned feel enormous gratitude for the sacrifice made by all the Canadian Armed Forces through the ages in defence of this country and its values; acknowledge the very special nature of the sacrifice made by those who fought in the First World War in appalling conditions and with terrible loss of life; note that only three First World War veterans remain; and urge the Prime Minister that their sacrifice, and all of those they served with under arms from 1914-1918, be celebrated by *offering* a state funeral to the family of the last veteran of the First World War resident in Canada."

and you said this before 


			
				Teflon said:
			
		

> http://www.dominion.ca/petition/
> 
> From the document itself:
> 
> No one is going to go against a vets last wishes or the wishes of the vets surviving family, if you read the petition wording it clearly says that they be OFFERED a state funeral,... OFFERED not weather You like it or not!



which leads me to believe that they did not ask the family. But before we get this topic locked we can talk about this more in the PM


----------



## Teflon (9 Nov 2006)

Trinity

Where is this attitude you speek of?

You talked of how much work it could be



So if you are all bent out of shape by my reply then don't read anything I post, I don't mean to offend you but I replied having no idea you would bruse that easily. 

As I said before,... sign it, or don't sign it but don't go warning to cool my attitude when I havn't bothered to use any with you.


----------



## Trinity (9 Nov 2006)

Teflon said:
			
		

> , you Trinity might find it waaaay too much work to click a link and go to the web sight and type in your name and click the sign petition button (because thats all they are asking YOU to do)



Here?  I perceive this as attitude.


----------



## Teflon (9 Nov 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> Here?  I perceive this as attitude.



Once again wheres the attitude? (the extra A's in way?)

Do you truely bruise that easily?


----------



## Trinity (9 Nov 2006)

Teflon said:
			
		

> Once again wheres the attitude? (the extra A's in way?)
> 
> Do you truely bruise that easily?



OK.. so now you choose to insult me?  

How about you try to argue with fact.

How about you reply to the post where I actually talk about working with
the veterans and how there may be positive and negative consequences to this.

I guess that didn't matter to you because it was too easy to make personal attacks
on me to win your point?  How about you address my post that this may have
ramifications larger than simply just being a state funeral.

But what do I know.  I've only dealt with the fa miles of veterans and veterans
themselves as a chaplain.


----------



## Teflon (9 Nov 2006)

Trinity

No I havn't worked at a veterans facility, and as to negative consequences of this petition I don't see any, I don't see how an OFFER of a state funeral could adversly effect a passed veteran or his family, if the honourable man has passed and requires a funeral then I don't see negative consequences to offering him and his family a state one.

Hows that?


----------



## Trinity (9 Nov 2006)

A fairly narrow view of the situation.

A state funeral doesn't just involve the veteran or the immediate family.
It affects all families, all veterans, all Canadians.

 You aren't considering any other point of view but your own.  
You haven't given any consideration to how this may
impact others who will then want one.  It may upset other veterans
for a number of any reasons.

To some it may put more significance on one death but not another.  What
makes one man more important that another... how many more days he lived?

Maybe the family doesn't need to be reminded of the pain.  Maybe this
will cause more pain in other families who feel their father/mother deserved
the same.  Maybe this will stir up problems of the forces vs merchant marines
who didn't get any recognition.

Others might see this as some political play to promote the war in Afghanistan
and speak out against it.  

Others might see it as a glorification of war (like this White poppy campaign)

These are a few things in my head... not all.  I'm bound to confidentiality on
many things and I cannot disclose some of my views on this.  But since I have
worked in these wards I can probably not every veteran will agree with this. 

There is simply MORE to the situation than offering one person a funeral.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (9 Nov 2006)

Teflon said:
			
		

> Trinity
> 
> *No I havn't worked at a veterans facility*, and as to negative consequences of this petition *I don't see any*, *I don't see how * an OFFER of a state funeral could adversly effect a passed veteran or his family, if the honourable man has passed and requires a funeral then I* don't see * negative consequences to offering him and his family a state one.
> 
> Hows that?



I think the bolded parts speak for themselves.  Do I need to say more?  'Cause I can.  You just won't like it.

You can hammer away at Trinity all you want.  I am sure it impresses the girls to see you pick on the padre.   :

Let me ask you this though...why are you hammering?

I think...you are making this personal, and not objective, so it might be time to stop, drop and roll.


----------



## niner domestic (9 Nov 2006)

Well, it appears that my original post that called into question the creepy factor has evolved into something else.  

I questioned whether it was just a tad bit creepy to be discussing an impending state funeral (regardless of how it comes to be) of any one of three remaining WWI vets.  They may be 105 and 106 respectively but as of a few hours ago, they were all very much alive (and I would hope planning on remaining alive for a while longer).  I also questioned (and perhaps lit the spark of further inquiry) as to whether there was any indication that the vets themselves had agreed to this petition or even have indicated that they wish to have, if offered, a state funeral.  I've been reading the Dominion Institute's website for a while and I have not seen any indication that they have consulted with the families of these vets anywhere on their website.   

I also wondered out loud at why we as a country were not celebrating these last three vet's remarkable life spans in the here and now instead of looking to the future where they have all died.  How sad it is that we have already had them die and are speaking of how to bury them and give them honours they deserve instead of focusing on the glorious gift that they have lived this long and are still with us.  We still can all take a moment and say thank you to them person.  We can, and are blessed to be able to demonstrate to them our gratitude as a country - now - while they are alive. 

I had the honour of knowing Paul Metivier who passed away last January at the lovely age of 104.  His son, Denis was so proud of his dad and that his dad at his advanced age could still hear, see and speak perfect English and French.  He didn't like it when reporters asked him about State funerals as he felt that he had a few more years left in him and was genuinely abhorred when people talked about his death.  

It was with that in mind that I raised my questions on whether they vets had been consulted.  I believe Trinity picked up whether the families would agree and if not, in his speculations, pondered the waste of time and energy to convince the Government to offer a State funeral if it were to be turned down (but he can speak to that himself).  

I can't imagine what i would feel like if an organization were petitioning on my behalf (but not really because the last vet is unknown right now) to the Government to offer my family a special funeral service when none had every been offered to my comrades except for the standard Military funeral.  I can't imagine what I would feel like if it became a quasi-competition between 3 very grand old men to see who could last the longest.  Or even how I would feel that the same people that are so willing to suggest a funeral have never even given me the time of day since health as stopped me from attending Remembrance Day services.  

I'd rather see a final country wide letter writing campaign to say thank you to the vets that remain or one hell of a huge birthday bash put on by the people of Canada for all three of them. To me, it is better to honour them while they are alive to see it than to continue to speak of their impending deaths.


----------



## spud (9 Nov 2006)

Teflon said:
			
		

> Once again wheres the attitude? (the extra A's in way?)
> 
> Do you truely bruise that easily?



As the groovy man with the bad grill said "Now you're just being rude baby"....

That's the third time I quoted Austin Powers in the last few days; is it just me or are some people getting short with others really quickly?

potato


----------



## Trinity (9 Nov 2006)

spud said:
			
		

> As the groovy man with the bad grill said "Now you're just being rude baby"....
> 
> That's the third time I quoted Austin Powers in the last few days; is it just me or are some people getting short with others really quickly?



But the really funny thing is.. two of the times you've said it... it was in response to what someone said to me.  :


----------



## spud (9 Nov 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> But the really funny thing is.. two of the times you've said it... it was in response to what someone said to me.  :



Ha ha, it's your confrontational nature Trinity    

potato


----------



## Teflon (10 Nov 2006)

This whole thing started with my post in reply to Trinity and Infantry:



> No one is going to go against a vets last wishes or the wishes of the vets surviving family, if you read the petition wording it clearly says that they be OFFERED a state funeral,... OFFERED not weather You like it or not!



The capilization used to stress that it was to offer not force a state funeral I also included the wording of the petition to show this

Trinity replied:



> So.... how do we know if all three won't say no?Quite possibly the entire peition could be an exercise in futilityif the families/vet says no?Seems like more work for a petition, sign, submit, debate, etc...if no one might want it.  Faster to ask the families involved......



Too which I replied:



> One could have said the same thing about any endever,... I for one believe it's a worthy cause, you Trinity might find it waaaay too much work to click a link and go to the web sight and type in your name and click the sign petition button (because thats all they are asking YOU to do) but I don't think that is too much to ask.Sign it, don't sign it,... do or don't do what you wishBack in 1914 when they were asked to go over seas I wonder if any of them said, "seems like a lot of work,... we might not win,.... Quite possibly the entire war could be an exercise in futility etc, etc"



Trinity then told me to cool the attitude (still wondering where all this caustic attitude is,... thinking it's all the aaaas in way) and asked and answered for me if I had worked with Vets (truth be told Trinity is right, beside having a beer and conversation with many at the Legion doesn't count as work to me so no I havn't)

Trinity then confirmed that the waaay to much work comment was what was considered attitude

I then asked Trinity if he bruised that easily?

to which Trinity found insulting and asked me to answer the question of and how there may be positive and negative consequences to this and accused me of not caring about consequences or the vets.



> I guess that didn't matter to you because it was too easy to make personal attackson me to win your point?  How about you address my post that this may haveramifications larger than simply just being a state funeral.



So I replied to the question and chose to ignore the slap about not caring



> TrinityNo I havn't worked at a veterans facility, and as to negative consequences of this petition I don't see any, I don't see how an OFFER of a state funeral could adversly effect a passed veteran or his family, if the honourable man has passed and requires a funeral then I don't see negative consequences to offering him and his family a state one.Hows that?



If a family of a vet or the vet himself does not wish this then it doesn't have to be accepted, or if a family would find the attention of a state funeral too painfull or the distence to the resting place too far or not near their home they can decline the offer.  I don't see how anyone would be offended or hurt by the offer of a rightly deserved honour, I can see why one might decline it but I don't see the negative consequences of it being offered.

I don't see this how this opinion is any less valid because my contact with vets and their family is not in a proffesional manner but a social one.

(Thank You to the Mod who moved this to a different thread so as not to tie up the other one from it's original intent)


----------



## Trinity (10 Nov 2006)

Teflon

I don't hate you, I'm not out to get you, I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid.

People's opinions, right, wrong or indifferent are their opinions.

Your point is you don't see how offering a state funeral or even the prospect to TRY to offer
a state funeral could have detrimental affects.

My point is you need to recognize there is a larger element that doesn't
just involve the immediate family of the last person (and that person himself). I
have no intent of rehashing any points given as examples.  

These negative affects may be very well worth still having a funeral as such, however
it is something definitely to take into consideration.  

In truth... you may have to just take my word for it.  If I start talking about how to
do advance to contact in the sandbox... I should probably things like that to people
such as yourselves.  When it comes to families, emotions, funerals, death/dying/bereavement etc...
I have an advantage to see how this may not be an easy proposal.  Even just reading some of
the comments on the petition show a varying degree of reasons why and some interesting 
opinions to say the least.

I'm not trying to force your hand on the topic.  The personal side of me thinks it would be
a great idea but the professional side of me had my spidey senses tingle over the idea.  I'm 
trying to offer your a broader look onto the topic but by no means do you have to accept it
or even like it...  I'm not trying to make you look like a fool or force you into a corner which I 
think may have happened by a small pile on by others.  Thus forcing you to possibly dig
deeper into an argumentwhich IMO is a difficult one to defend. 

So really... you can decide  No there is no negative affects as a result of offering this or
yes, there may be possible affects in areas related to and not related to the families and veterans.

Your opinion is your opinion.  But after a few posts of back and forth either one or both
individuals have movement and see eachothers points or they don't.  In this case... neither
of us is moving and to continue on with this fruitless and tiring.


----------



## Teflon (10 Nov 2006)

Trinity

Then tell me what the possible negatives might be, I also didn't intend to insult or belittle you, but I do tend to be an aggressive and sometimes sarcastic person when dealing with fellow military members. Most do not take offense to the way I say things but that may be because they know me. The bruise that easily comment was because I really didn't think one would be insulted, offended or confuse it for an attempt at "attitude", it's an expression I use often.  I don't see the negatives in this but do see the possibilitiy that they might decide to decline it so with your past work as opposed to my past social only interaction please tell me what you feel might be some of the negative effects of this.  I have changed my opinion before on a topic but only through gaining information from others or finding it myself.

I truely hope that this little frackas is behind us and we both can get back to gaining and providing productively to this site and do apoligize for any offense you may have taken because offense is not/ was not my intent.

Teflon


----------



## KevinB (10 Nov 2006)

IMHO - its ignorant not to OFFER them the honour.
 Of course I have learned and continue to learn, that a lot of people here dont understand honour.


----------



## Trinity (10 Nov 2006)

Teflon said:
			
		

> I truely hope that this little frackas is behind us and we both can get back to gaining and providing productively to this site and do apoligize for any offense you may have taken because offense is not/ was not my intent.



No worries.. I've posted a good chunk of ideas.  I'll PM you with what
I don't want to say openly.  

I watched you get backed into a corner and realized that this was going to get stupid
hence my last post and your last post.  Obviously we're two normal people but the internet
is such a difficult medium to communicate through one always must take precautions to
not be misconstrued or taken advantage of.


----------



## spud (10 Nov 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> Obviously we're two normal people but the internet



What the??  A PPCLI Sgt. and a Padre.....normal people........hmmmmm ???....Who would have thought?

.......just kidding fellas, good show. 

potato

p.s. No Sgt's or Padres were hurt in the production of this posting


----------



## Teflon (10 Nov 2006)

Trinity

no Problem, corners never bother me, even if my backs in one but yes it was getting stupid and the net is a difficult medium to express many things, intensity of words being one of them

I await the above mentioned PM, I was considering asking you to continue this in PM so as not to dirty up the original thread but the Mods beat me to it and moved while I slept.

Till then,....

cheers


----------



## niner domestic (10 Nov 2006)

> Griffiths said he doesn't know if the veterans are religious men and hasn't contacted the families about the idea of a state funeral.
> 
> But he said every detail would ultimately be up to the families if a state funeral was offered.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061105/state_funeral_061105/20061105?hub=Canada

Nice gesture, but I'd be much happier if the Institute had contacted the men or their families first. 

I just wrote out three letters to these men, and said thank you to them and promised to remember their comrades as long as I live.


----------



## Teflon (10 Nov 2006)

spud said:
			
		

> What the??  A PPCLI Sgt. and a Padre.....normal people........hmmmmm ???....Who would have thought?
> 
> .......just kidding fellas, good show.
> 
> ...



Well I did get hit in the head by a white board marker but that was by a co-worker in an un-related incident! (almost lost an eye!!! )


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jan 2007)

The latest, shared with the usual disclaimer....

*First World War veterans don't want state funeral*
CBC Online, 2 Jan 07
Article Link

The Canadian government has agreed to hold a state funeral for the last First World War veteran to die, but none of the three veterans still living wants a state funeral.  The niece of one veteran, Lloyd Clemett, said her uncle would rather have a simple memorial service.  "He himself feels there should not be attention given to the last person, but the attention should be given to them all," said niece Merle Kaczanowski, who is Clemett's guardian.  Her uncle, who is in a Toronto hospital, turned 107 last month.  The other two remaining veterans, Percy Wilson and John Babcock, are over the age of 100 as well. Both have indicated that, for now at least, they are not interested in a state funeral.  Veterans Affairs officials said they're aware the three veterans don't want state funerals and they're looking into other options. They would not say what those options are ....


----------

