# Trying to get out of Singles Quarters



## bobbyhill (4 Jul 2007)

Hello,

I moved to Borden about a month ago, and I'm sick of paying 400 bucks for food, and 120 for a tiny room shared by 3 other people.  I'd like to get a room, but, because I'm on course, and I'm not married, I got shot down on my request to vacate singles quarters.  My unique situation is that I was a Master Corporal in the reserves, and I'm a Corporal now.  I'm not looking for a PMQ, just a month to month lease off-base.  I heard of some guy who got out of singles quarters based on the fact that he was QL5 qualified, but I can't find that DAOD, CFAO, QR&O or CANFORGEN that stipulates anything like that.  Is there anything anyone can help me with?

Thanks


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2007)

BH, how ya doing!!?? Don't think you're going to have much luck. It's usually a course requirement for candidates to stay in house. Even us married guys had to stay in shacks when I was there, but that was so long ago it's likely immaterial now. Try talking to Base Accomodations, they might be able to help, or know something. Take care.

Should be changing your avatar and stuff now that your a 'bluejob' shouldn't ya?  :blotto:


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## Greymatters (4 Jul 2007)

Like recceguy says.  Good luck to you, and cangrats if you can figure a way out, but otherwise fat chance of it happening.


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## bobbyhill (4 Jul 2007)

Lol, thanks recceguy.  FYI, I'm not going to stir up too much shit, if I get shot down, so be it.  I'm not going to bring it further than my immediate chain.  I'd just like to have some docs to back up my request before I submit it.

Bobby

...and I'll change my profile when I get the chance.

Semper Paratus


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## belka (15 Jul 2007)

While I was on course in Borden, I know that a cpl (ex navy or army, can't remember mcpl) bought a house in Barrie while on his AVN course, so it's not impossible. Made quite a hefty profit when he finished course and got posted out east.


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## BC Old Guy (16 Jul 2007)

Getting out of single quarters in Borden can be done.  In part, it depends on how long the course is, and whether you have a household of furniture in storage that the military is paying the storage fees. If so, you can build a business case (it'll cost the CF less money to allow you to move out etc) 

     Many courses view this time as a way to build on the socialization into the military that was started in BMQ.  As a more experienced military person, they may want you in quarters to help mold the less experienced students.


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## PO2FinClk (16 Jul 2007)

Start by looking at your course loading message as it may state in there that you are in fact required to remain in SQ's. Or it could also provide you with some supporting arguments to allow you to move out.

As each occupation and QL course varies in length and requirements, there is no all emcompassing guideline to this effect. Rather each is addressed from on its' own merit via the course loading Instr's.


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## RatCatcher (18 Jul 2007)

I know that during my PMed QL5 course, we three single people were allowed to live off base since we were paying R&Q, all of us opted to stay in quarters. That being said, remember that part of the idea of living with your peers is the morale and intercourse help that is provided. If you are on a QL3 and were a MCpl in the mo then you do have some abilities to help your fellow candidates.  

As for my experience, just don't try to move an appartement into a barrack room, one girl tried and what resulted was the first inspection of the PMed quarters by the Base SM in quite a few years.... she is no longer in the CF!


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## Yrys (18 Jul 2007)

RatCatcher said:
			
		

> As for my experience, just don't try to move an appartement into a barrack room, one girl tried



I wouldn't even thougt that physically possible !


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## RatCatcher (18 Jul 2007)

Picture this if you will... walking home from CFMSS we observe a confused moving truck driver. We arrive a T-139 and see a gesticulating commisionnaire trying to explain to the driver that it is impossible that someone is moving all that stuff into his barracks. The girl in question arrives and says yes it is her stuff and it will be going into her room. 

She took the other bed appart, put it into dowstairs storage (eliminating any room for the rest of us), and proceeded to make "an appartement" in the barracks. Skip to next morning, instructor informs the class that all F&E (mainly F) should be placed in storage if you stay in barracks and that just because we are in our own rooms doesn't mean that someone else will not bew placed with us. 

The instructor said no names, she blows a gasket and he reads her the riot act. All this and the rest of us are trying to stiffil our laughter...

Ah... the good memories


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## Yrys (18 Jul 2007)

mmm Strange thinking on her part. The inside of her brain would have been interesting to look at op: .


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## RatCatcher (18 Jul 2007)

I hear that whistiling from those old country western movies....


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## Neill McKay (18 Jul 2007)

RatCatcher said:
			
		

> morale and intercourse help



Is that allowed in the shacks?


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## NL_engineer (18 Jul 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Is that allowed in the shacks?



I don't think he means it like that.

RatCatcher, maybe you should look closer at your wording next time; so us people with our minds in the gutter do not mistake your point for something else  ;D


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## bobbyhill (18 Jul 2007)

Hey everyone,

Just an update for ya.  My year and half long course that was supposed to be in Borden ended up in Halifax.  But there, I'll be getting TD, and free R&Q.  As for trying to get out of the shacks to avoid paying $425 for this awful food, I tried.  I failed.  I'm staying in these shacks until October.  Now, I'm not a cage rattler (thanks for that story about the chick who tried to make her own apartment in the shacks, I had a good laugh) so I'm not going to bring up any arguments if this is just a short time deal.  However, if those people try and make me pay R&Q while I'm on TD in Halifax... I'm gonna flip.  Thanks, and have a good one.

Bobby

PS, recceguy... I'm excercising all that built up complaining that I kept bottled down inside me because I was armoured and I didn't like to complain.  But I'm not stupid, the CO will never know my name... hopefully... knock on wood... semper paratus.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Jul 2007)

'Per Ardua ad Astra, Bobby. 'Through adversity to the stars'


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## RetiredRoyal (19 Jul 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> I'm not looking for a PMQ, just a month to month lease off-base.



Is Borden a base where they let single pers occupy married quarters? I know when I was in Edmonton that singles often occupied the row housing in Griesbach.


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## PO2FinClk (19 Jul 2007)

Bobby said:
			
		

> My year and half long course that was supposed to be in Borden ended up in Halifax.  But there, I'll be getting TD, and free R&Q.
> ---
> However, if those people try and make me pay R&Q while I'm on TD in Halifax... I'm gonna flip.  Thanks, and have a good one.


FYI, you cannot be on TD for a period in excess of 6 months. Rather you will likely be Att-Posted which under the new guidelines entitles you to receive incidentals as if you were on TD for preiods less then 1 year. CANFORGEN 124/06 details this as any pers attached out in excess of 1 year should be entitled to relocation benefits under CFIRP, however as you are still part of the training system you cannot be afforded such relocation benefits and thus be attached out for that period.

DCBA 3-6 310921Z Oct 05 is the authority you seek as it states that you would be subject to pay ration charges if attached out.


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## SupersonicMax (19 Jul 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> FYI, you cannot be on TD for a period in excess of 6 months. Rather you will likely be Att-Posted which under the new guidelines entitles you to receive incidentals as if you were on TD for preiods less then 1 year. CANFORGEN 124/06 details this as any pers attached out in excess of 1 year should be entitled to relocation benefits under CFIRP, however as you are still part of the training system you cannot be afforded such relocation benefits and thus be attached out for that period.
> 
> DCBA 3-6 310921Z Oct 05 is the authority you seek as it states that you would be subject to pay ration charges if attached out.



Don't you get Free Quarters and Rations now when you are attached posted anyways?

Max


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## PO2FinClk (19 Jul 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Don't you get Free Quarters and Rations now when you are attached posted anyways?
> 
> Max


Everyone already received free quarters, but not all use to receive free rations.


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## SupersonicMax (19 Jul 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> Everyone already received free quarters, but not all use to receive free rations.



I had to pay for quarters at home when attached posted, which isn't the case anymore as I understand it!  Mind you, it was RMC and people do not occupate their rooms and still charged us for quarters... And yet, cadets were using the rooms...


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## PO2FinClk (20 Jul 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I had to pay for quarters at home when attached posted, which isn't the case anymore as I understand it!  Mind you, it was RMC and people do not occupate their rooms and still charged us for quarters... And yet, cadets were using the rooms...


I was referring to the more typical Att-Posting and not those attributed by RMC or relating to BMQ, BOTC or any other of the sort which pertain to the indoctrinization to the military and occupations. Each of those have specific guidance pertaining to each which is why I mentioned in an earlier post that the course message, or any similar, should be consulted for SQ provisions and the requirement to pay for them. FOr those in the trainign system or BTL, consult your Course Instrs, ETP Instrs to RMC or anything of the sort as you may be subject to different requirements then the remainder of the CF.

Seeing as you were occupying SQ's where your "home" was, then yes you would continue to pay those as that is where you chose to reside. That is no different anyone going on att-posting will continue to pay rent or their mortgage while gone, they just won't have to pay for SQ at destination.


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## Jager (20 Jul 2007)

I happen to have the 'official policy' as of 27-03-2007, slightly edited to remove a few names from the ref line

Well, at least this is the most current policy for CFB Borden, etc that I have thus far.... Working as a clerk has its benifits



> CFB Borden - Attach Posting Policy and Administrative Procedures/ Temporary Relocation Allowance
> 
> Refs: A. CANFORGEN 124/06
> B. Email CWO ******** DCBA/CPO2 ******** CFSTG BOR
> ...



And the Ref thats listed, slightly edited to remove names, etc...


> Before I answer your questions, clarification on Att Posting benefits and TRSA is required.  Temporary Relocation is basically the new name for Imposed Restriction and Seperation Allowance is the new name for Seperation Expense.  These two terms and associated benefits are used only when members are posted and request an imposed restriction.  As far as Attach Posting is concerned, effective 1 Jul 06 members on Att Posting now receive benefits IAW the CFTDTI (R&Q and Incidentals).  With regards to the applicability to the benefits associated with Attach Posting, they apply to all CF members while att posted outside the geographical bounderies of their unit.  The definition contained in reference to TD in the CFTDTI means that TD does not apply to members undergoing Basic Recruit Training.  The term BTL was used with this intent.  It will be changed to alleviate confusion in the next version.  Until then, to reiterate, Att Posting benefits apply to all CF members after completion of the BRT.  CFSTG Borden was previously advised of this clarification.  Hope this clarifies the policy.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> ...


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## Sparkplugs (26 Sep 2007)

RetiredRoyal said:
			
		

> Is Borden a base where they let single pers occupy married quarters? I know when I was in Edmonton that singles often occupied the row housing in Griesbach.



In a word, nope.  There aren't enough PMQs for everyone, even the married people are having a hard time getting in right now.  I only know of one guy who gets to live with his non-common-law girlfriend, but they are on a lease in Barrie, so the military figured it would be better for him to stay there than to have to pay his landlord to get out of the lease.

But as far as the rest of us go, shacks it is.  If you're here in Borden for a long course though, talk to your course director about moving into A-148 (same rooms as A-150, but only 2 people per room) or the mods, which are also 2 to a room.  A-148's really not that bad.  I just wish we could get off rations...  you're right, $400 a month for Borden mess food is horrible.  And what they're doing in the mess now is insanity...  You can only get full meals on one side, and the other side only has a la carte stuff.  Blah, 4 months to go, hehe.

Good luck in Halifax... are you avs, bobby?


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## jswift872 (19 Feb 2008)

Sorry for bringing up a old topic, but it fits the best. 

My situation is, I am a reservist switching to AVN Tech. I will  be receiving a recruit school bypass. I have been in 3.5 years. Was on Task Force 1/07 with Hotel Company 2 RCR. 

My question is, when I get to Borden, will I be able to get my own place off base, I don't even care if it's a Q, I just want to have my own place. My relation ship with my current Girlfriend has already survived 8 months of work up training, 6 months of Tour, and numerous exercises before that. It realistically is to much to ask her to hold on another year. 

Basically, can I just get a apartment, make all the timings, and what not and everything will be good?

This, you would think, would be a concern at first, when I was applying for the CT, but it wasn't until I found this topic. 

Thanks for any advice, or comments.


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## smale436 (19 Feb 2008)

Having spent time where you will be attending your course, I'll be straightforward and say that when dealing with issues such as these common sense rarely prevails and the chances could be slim. Are you common-law with your girlfriend? If so, that is the only way you can get a PMQ. If you can find an empty one. When I left they were pretty much all occupied. Some common-law people managed to obtain a lease on an apartment or whatever in Barrie. Some single people (mostly ones in their mid to late thirties who felt they had enough previous TI/life experience to not need to have their hand held 24/7) kept their bedspace in the shacks, paid the monthly ration deduction, and rented a room in a buddy's PMQ/house in Barrie/wherever. I can understand why they would do this from a quality of life perspective. I had a hard enough time dealing with the immature people there and I am in my twenties. However living in the shacks can be beneficial for attending the twice weekly 0645 inspection timings. Winter weather and the conditions of the road in from Barrie are unpredictable and the staff will not tolerate that as an excuse for lateness/absence.
       You may be spending a bit of time on the PAT platoon before your course starts. I would recommend waiting the extra few weeks/months until you are on course. THEN go and discuss your request with your course staff and find out your options. Unfortunately there are so many people on the PAT platoon now that it is sometimes difficult getting things such as this dealt with properly. Good Luck!


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## Sparkplugs (20 Feb 2008)

J-Swift said:
			
		

> Sorry for bringing up a old topic, but it fits the best.
> 
> My situation is, I am a reservist switching to AVN Tech. I will  be receiving a recruit school bypass. I have been in 3.5 years. Was on Task Force 1/07 with Hotel Company 2 RCR.
> 
> ...



If you are commonlaw, you can get a Q.  If not?  Well, you could always rent an apartment, but you won't be able to get out of paying rations and quarters, (to the tune of $580-ish a month).  You can only get out of that if you have dependants.  The timings are not too hard to make.  2 in-room inspections a week in the shacks, and if you get a Q, you just have to meet those timings at the drill hall.  There are some apartments in Angus (right outside the base), but Barrie is a 20 minute drive when the traffic and weather are both good.

The average PAT wait right now is a couple-few months.  Some get lucky...  Usually CT's and reservists have a way shorter wait time than new guys.  Consider yourself lucky if you only have a month or two.   Anything else, including AVN questions, let me know.  I graduate the AVN program tomorrow, so I've done my time in Borden, hehe.


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## smale436 (20 Feb 2008)

Congrats on graduating. You must be glad to get out of there. Looking forward to Cold Lake? Us Cold Lake people out here in Hfx are supposed to leave 2 weeks Friday, but we have no messages yet! Gotta love when screenings get commenced a month late and then sit on soneones desk for another month! I think we will be reporting late :


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## belka (20 Feb 2008)

You'll enjoy Cold Lake. Make sure you get your full winter kit when you first get here, cause you'll need it.  ;D


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## jswift872 (20 Feb 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> If you are commonlaw, you can get a Q.  If not?  Well, you could always rent an apartment, but you won't be able to get out of paying rations and quarters, (to the tune of $580-ish a month).  You can only get out of that if you have dependants.  The timings are not too hard to make.  2 in-room inspections a week in the shacks, and if you get a Q, you just have to meet those timings at the drill hall.  There are some apartments in Angus (right outside the base), but Barrie is a 20 minute drive when the traffic and weather are both good.
> 
> The average PAT wait right now is a couple-few months.  Some get lucky...  Usually CT's and reservists have a way shorter wait time than new guys.  Consider yourself lucky if you only have a month or two.   Anything else, including AVN questions, let me know.  I graduate the AVN program tomorrow, so I've done my time in Borden, hehe.



thanks for the info. its comforting to know I can get my own place, however thats a crap load of money. :S But, nonetheless thanks for the information.


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## GDawg (16 Jun 2009)

I'm gonna go ahead and resurrect a dead thread. I am trying to vacate single quarters myself. I am a PAT who came from the reserves and I am at the school which I will be training at. I know I can move out on completion of my 3's but that could very well take a year or two. For what its worth I've completed 3's in 2 other trades already...which is kind of why I want to live on my own like a grown up now. 

School Standing Orders state clearly that an OC can authorize a single member on the BTL to move out. Anyone have any advice? Or references that might be pertinent?


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## SupersonicMax (17 Jun 2009)

Well, if your Standing Orders say the OC can authorize you to move out, then fire a memo away (to the OC, through your CoC) defending your case, referencing he Standing Order.


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## Eye In The Sky (17 Jun 2009)

To add to what SS Max said, remember it says "may".  The OC doesn't have to.  Make a good case.  You might want to check around with any other of the single folks who managed to escape SQs and see what worked for them.

Also, if you haven't, I'd be talking to your immediate superior(s).  Having their support as this memo goes up the CoC is probably going to help you out oodles IMO.


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