# MILITARY RELATED CELLULAR USE BY RESERVISTS



## Haggis (3 May 2018)

In this connected age there is a rising expectation that leaders/managers are available and reachable 24/7.  This holds true in the CAF Reserves as well.  It's understood, at least in the Army Reserve, that effective section, troop/platoon and company/squadron leadership cannot be conducted on 3 hours a week of contact with your next level of command, particularly when filling the demands of a higher (Bde, Div) HQ generating 40 hours worth of RFIs (many of which begin or end with the phrase "regret short notice"). This seems to increase the higher you go in rank and contributes to the blurring of lines between your service and personal life.  

So, let's see if the problem is really a problem at all. The question assumes that you do not have CAF provided cellular device (either from your unit or from ERE Class B/C or civ employment within DND).  Can you effectively lead and manage your section, detachment, troop/platoon, company/squadron or unit without use of your personal cellular device?


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## daftandbarmy (3 May 2018)

Haggis said:
			
		

> In this connected age, there is a rising expectation that leaders/managers are available and reachable 24/7.  This holds true in the CAF Reserves as well.  It's understood, at least in the Army Reserve, that effective section, troop/platoon and company/squadron leadership cannot be conducted on 3 hours a week of contact with your next level of command, particularly when filling the demands of a higher (Bde, Div) HQ generating 40 hours worth of RFIs (many of which begin or end with the phrase "regret short notice"). This seems to increase the higher you go in rank and contributes to the blurring of lines between your service and personal life.
> 
> So, let's see if the problem is really a problem at all. The question assumes that you do not have CAF provided cellular device (either from your unit or from ERE Class B/C or civ employment within DND).  Can you effectively lead and manage your section, detachment, troop/platoon, company/squadron or unit without use of your personal cellular device?



I can get 30 to 40 emails a week from my CoC. It's absurdly onerous, and serves to disrupt normal information flow and 'weeding out' through the usual channels.


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## RocketRichard (3 May 2018)

Haggis said:
			
		

> In this connected age, there is a rising expectation that leaders/managers are available and reachable 24/7.  This holds true in the CAF Reserves as well.  It's understood, at least in the Army Reserve, that effective section, troop/platoon and company/squadron leadership cannot be conducted on 3 hours a week of contact with your next level of command, particularly when filling the demands of a higher (Bde, Div) HQ generating 40 hours worth of RFIs (many of which begin or end with the phrase "regret short notice"). This seems to increase the higher you go in rank and contributes to the blurring of lines between your service and personal life.
> 
> So, let's see if the problem is really a problem at all. The question assumes that you do not have CAF provided cellular device (either from your unit or from ERE Class B/C or civ employment within DND).  Can you effectively lead and manage your section, detachment, troop/platoon, company/squadron or unit without use of your personal cellular device?


Very difficult. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## runormal (3 May 2018)

I'm torn of what to do. I get around 30-40 emails a week and it cuts into my day job. "Who wants this tasking, who wants to go on this tour? Response NLT 1400 today, sorry for the short first." The best is when the request was sent 3 days earlier and some in the COC "sat on it." For my efforts I'm compensated and extra half day a week, which is a terrible trade off for the amount of time.

I really don't care about the COC not providing me a blackberry, emails take minimal data, I've got unlimited texts and calls after 5pm. My bigger concern is the time it takes out of my workday/weekend. No one joined the army to get rich, but I had significantly less work to do as a detachment command instead of a section command.

My biggest issue is the strict adherence to COC to messages on the way down. There is no need for Tours/FastBalls to go from SQN OPS -> SSM -> Tp WO -> Sect Comd - Det Comd -> Det Members. I've seen this result in tours already been filled by the time we the member sees them. There is no reason why SQN Ops can't email the members directly with everyone CC'ed and then depending on the timeframe for returns say "Reply to me directly or reply directly to your Sect Comd." 

However, they don't pay me to think...


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## Remius (3 May 2018)

It is a tough balancing act.  I normally try and clear/action emails first thing when I get in and at lunch and end of day before leaving.  Key word is try.  Luckily my employer is. A good supporter of the reserves.  There is also the issue of trying to do your job without access to CFTPO, ACIMS etc.  The worst is when you receive an email with reference to links in ACIMS rather than a proper attachment.  

I do way more than the half day I get for admin...


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## Remius (3 May 2018)

To add, this week alone I have 91 emails in relation to my reserve work.  I'm not counting any banter style emails either in that.


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## ModlrMike (3 May 2018)

I suppose I'm fortunate to have a DVPNI laptop for home use. None the less, that's still time I have to devote after I come home from work. By way of example I had 98 emails come to me over the course of two days. Yes, I do get paid for it, but that's not really the point. It's more about finding the extra time. On the other hand, my unit is quite good about "broadcast" emails. We get Routine Orders every month, and Night Orders twice per week. We also get any fastballs sent directly to unit members with instructions for them to reply to the Trg Dept, or other OPI as required. If members miss tasking opportunities, it's not because the unit failed to contact them in a timely manner.

As a department head, I'm usually in contact with the XO or CO several times per week by phone or text message. We try to keep things to a minimum, so I don't really mind. I suppose it comes down to the expectation the leadership team sets, and I know some of that is an attempt at pushback towards HQ. It's too easy for folks who work full time to expect us part timers to respond to emails overnight. An email sent on friday might not be seen until tuesday evening.


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## Mike5 (3 May 2018)

I get several e-mails to my civvy accounts on a slow day and 10 - 20 on a busier day.  It's not the lack of pay; it's the time.


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## Lumber (3 May 2018)

runormal said:
			
		

> My biggest issue is the strict adherence to COC to messages on the way down. There is no need for Tours/FastBalls to go from SQN OPS -> SSM -> Tp WO -> Sect Comd - Det Comd -> Det Members. I've seen this result in tours already been filled by the time we the member sees them. There is no reason why SQN Ops can't email the members directly with everyone CC'ed and then depending on the timeframe for returns say "Reply to me directly or reply directly to your Sect Comd."
> 
> However, they don't pay me to think...



Yes, you guys should definitely do something different. For non-routine business, and by that I mean deployments, training exercises, first aid, 404, range weekends, etc, and coursing opportunities (whether career courses or just other fun courses that come up), absolutely everything goes through our Training Officer (who is our 2nd full-time officer, Class-B, and is kind of like your OpsO/OpsWO).

Our Training Officer collects all of these different opportunities and sends out an email once a week called our "weekly employment opportunities". It's usually one page and has anywhere from 10-20 different opportunities. It could include everything from my Orderly Room requesting a couple of days of Class-A help with annual archiving and destruction, to a year long deployment aboard a RegF frigate. This email is sent to everyone's civilian emails, and they respond directly to our Training Officer, while Cc'ing their Chain of Command to make sure they are in the loop.

So, instead of having to go all the way down the CoC and all the way back, we just blast it out to everyone, and the response go straight back to the top (TrgO) with the CoC being kept informed. 

Besides, technically speaking, for employment on taskings, whether Class A or B,  only our CO can "deny" a member's application to these taskings (and in some cases, even he can't), and he would only do so for a member who is in _really_ bad standing. So, I don't see the point in going through the chain of command except to keep them informed of their members taskings. If the member wants to go on a month long naval security ex, but his Divisional PO (kind of like a section 2IC) doesn't want him to go because he's the training coordinator, well too bad, he's going.


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## Lumber (3 May 2018)

Being the RegF officer in the RSS position, I can tell you it's a constant internal struggle to decide whether to send an email to a members' civilian or military email.

I'm used to quick responses and quick turn arounds in the RegF, and I've really had reign myself in to learn to decide what is and isn't time sensitive, and stop and think how/when to send emails out to the Class-As.

For routine business, if it can wait two or three days until the department heads and divisional officers are in, I will send it to their military emails, even if it means I can't finish a task right away (which is hard for me, as I'm the type that likes to get a job done right away). If it can't wait 2-3 days, then I will send it to their civilian emails. When it comes to my command team (CO, XO, Coxn), my emails almost always go to both their civilian and military emails, as they want to be informed immediately of everything going on.

That being said, I do agree that we really way too heavily on civilian cellphones and email. Sure, senior staff have sort of signed-on to be plugged into the business and can be expected to be more available, but what about our junior sailors and soldiers? 

It may seem unusual to most, but there really are soldiers and sailors that cannot afford a good cellphone plan. This isn't the regular force, so they don't have a guaranteed income. We have sailors who's only source of income is their Class-A work and don't have reliable data plans, yet we still chomp on these people to respond quickly to emails from their chains of command, and I just don't think that's fair.


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## Haggis (3 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I suppose I'm fortunate to have a DVPNI laptop for home use. None the less, that's still time I have to devote after I come home from work. By way of example I had 98 emails come to me over the course of two days. Yes, I do get paid for it, but that's not really the point.



I have a DVPNI laptop at home too, but, thankfully, no more Blackberry.

I've heard it said by some senior officers that this type of devotion to duty is expected because it's already compensated (paid for) in that on a Class A parade night you get paid for six hours but you only work for three.  Therefore you "owe" three hours of work to HRH.  That is, of course, utter hogwash and clearly not in line with the CBI 204.51(2)a definition of a Class A period of service of less than six hours.


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## Haggis (3 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> When it comes to my command team (CO, XO, Coxn), my emails almost always go to both their civilian and military emails, as they want to be informed immediately of everything going on.



Ultimately they are responsible to higher for their unit operations and accountable for the decisions made in their absence by the FT (RSS/FTUC) staff.  So, it's somewhat imperative that they are informed in a timely manner because they will be the ones queried if an issue goes sideways.  However, that doesn't make it right.


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## Pusser (3 May 2018)

How did we ever manage to win a world war without cell phones?


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## dapaterson (3 May 2018)

The Army's new funding model assumes about 100 days/year for unit command team.

That's five months full-time (at 20 working days/month).  How we expect Res unit command teams to (a) be senior leaders in their civilian jobs (b) be engaged in their community and (c) maintain some semblance of a family life, while working five months a year of evenings and weekends eludes me.


But god forbid a spreadsheet be late.


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## SeaKingTacco (3 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Army's new funding model assumes about 100 days/year for unit command team.
> 
> That's five months full-time (at 20 working days/month).  How we expect Res unit command teams to (a) be senior leaders in their civilian jobs (b) be engaged in their community and (c) maintain some semblance of a family life, while working five months a year of evenings and weekends eludes me.
> 
> ...



You mean a spreadsheet the HHQ could likely populate themselves, if they ever bothered to open DRMIS, HRMS or MonitorMass?


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## daftandbarmy (3 May 2018)

12 emails past night between 6 and 11pm. 

The CAF officially classifies as SPAM now


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## dapaterson (3 May 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> You mean a spreadsheet the HHQ could likely populate themselves, if they ever bothered to open DRMIS, HRMS or MonitorMass?



Well, it's really two nearly identical spreadsheets: one from the '1, the other from the '3...


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## BDTyre (3 May 2018)

I'm not leadership, but I am currently work with my unit's RQ and essentially am the primary contact as our RQ and all day staff are away until next week. Regardless, even when my supervisor is here there are at least a few texts and almost certainly one or two emails from the CSM regarding upcoming training and as I'm generally responsible for drawing weapons for company training and unit events, I find myself coordinating during the week with my "customers" to make sure I know what they need and can arrange for everything to run smoothly on a Wednesday or Friday night (for example, I know today and tomorrow I will be in touch with our shooting team's coach to ensure all paperwork for Friday night is ready so that they can get their rifles and leave quickly).

As non-leadership, I'm not entitled to a half-day admin pay, but the extra half-days on weekends makes up for that.


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## brihard (3 May 2018)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> As non-leadership, I'm not entitled to a half-day admin pay, but the extra half-days on weekends makes up for that.



If they make you work, you’re entitled to pay. If they’re unwilling to ly you for the time you spend fielding that stuff, it sounds like it can all wait til you’re at work and signed in.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 May 2018)

Few people, within my CoC, had my civie cell #. The number on the nominal roll was an unlisted landline with no answering machine.


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## BDTyre (3 May 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> If they make you work, you’re entitled to pay. If they’re unwilling to ly you for the time you spend fielding that stuff, it sounds like it can all wait til you’re at work and signed in.



At the end of this month I should just show them all the Tuesday and Friday text messages and emails going back to September and ask for a half day (or two since for a good part of that time I was course storesman) for each month...get a little extra money on my last pay of this training year! ;D


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## brihard (3 May 2018)

Yup. They should be absolutely OK with that.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (3 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Few people, within my CoC, had my civie cell #. The number on the nominal roll was an unlisted landline with no answering machine.



Well, you were recce: being hard to find was your way of life!


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## Lumber (3 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Few people, within my CoC, had my civie cell #. The number on the nominal roll was an unlisted landline with no answering machine.



These days, if you are required to provide your phone number. You are not required to have a phone, but, you are also required not to lie. If you have a phone and refuse to provide the contact info, or provide false info... well... there are options.


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## Jarnhamar (3 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> These days, if you are required to provide your phone number. You are not required to have a phone, but, you are also required not to lie. If you have a phone and refuse to provide the contact info, or provide false info... well... there are options.



I've never heard of that. What would it be under?


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## Lumber (3 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I've never heard of that. What would it be under?



Do you really want to be a lower deck lawyer?


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## Jarnhamar (3 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Do you really want to be a lower deck lawyer?



I thought you were serious.  I have a soldier without a phone, as far as I'm aware, and I was curious if there was an actual rule about providing contact info if you have it.


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## chrisf (3 May 2018)

Just don't answer the phone/e-mail outside hours where you're signed in?

You're not under any obligation to do so.


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## Loch Sloy! (3 May 2018)

> Just don't answer the phone/e-mail outside hours where you're signed in?
> 
> You're not under any obligation to do so.



Sure and admin in virtually every reserve unit in Canada would basically grind to a halt...


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## Haggis (3 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought you were serious.  I have a soldier without a phone, as far as I'm aware, and I was curious if there was an actual rule about providing contact info if you have it.



If a member doesn't have a phone (and there are a few) his only means of contact would be a personal visit.  He has to provide an address for a number of valid reasons.


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## SupersonicMax (3 May 2018)

Instead of being a d*ck and pretend you don't have a phone (I highly doubt that some people have such a boring life and no interractions outside of work that they don't have a phone or other means of instant communication such as Skype, FaceTime or IM protocols), why not be upfront with your CoC and let them know you would appreciate not being contacted on your time off?  Of course, sometimes there will be the inevitable recalls but generally speaking, a CoC should not constantly contact you after-hours and expect an immediate response.

As far as the reserve question goes, while technically speaking, you could claim a half days of work to answer a text message from your CoC, I would suggest you discuss with your immediate supervisor about what arrangements could be made to get fairly compensated for your work without charging 1/2 day for every 30 seconds text reply or else, if you feel so strongly, just don't action them until you stsrt clocking time at the unit...

I also find, annecdotely, that those that will exploit the system and find every loophole possible to make life more difficult for their CoC (ie: you can't force me to get a phone or tell you my phone number) are generally the first ones to say that if you don't serve exclusively for the love of their Country, else you're a traitor and are the first ones to demand respect from society "because they serve".

Rant off.


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## chrisf (3 May 2018)

Loch Sloy! said:
			
		

> Sure and admin in virtually every reserve unit in Canada would basically grind to a halt...



No, it wouldn't.

People would just have to learn to plan and prioritize, and make use of the time and resources they have available.

E-mail, cell phones, and text messaging are effectively killing any sort of planning.

There's a time and a place for it... letting your chain of command know that you're not going to be able to make it in for a parade night? Sure. Letting your troops know there's a tasking or tour available on short notice? Sure.

Almost literally everything else, can wait till a parade night.


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## dapaterson (3 May 2018)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> E-mail, cell phones, and text messaging are effectively killing any sort of planning.



This, plus ten thousand.


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## daftandbarmy (3 May 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Instead of being a d*ck and pretend you don't have a phone (I highly doubt that some people have such a boring life and no interractions outside of work that they don't have a phone or other means of instant communication such as Skype, FaceTime or IM protocols), why not be upfront with your CoC and let them know you would appreciate not being contacted on your time off?  Of course, sometimes there will be the inevitable recalls but generally speaking, a CoC should not constantly contact you after-hours and expect an immediate response.
> 
> As far as the reserve question goes, while technically speaking, you could claim a half days of work to answer a text message from your CoC, I would suggest you discuss with your immediate supervisor about what arrangements could be made to get fairly compensated for your work without charging 1/2 day for every 30 seconds text reply or else, if you feel so strongly, just don't action them until you stsrt clocking time at the unit...
> 
> ...



I have sent 3 emails like this in the past 6 months or so, to no avail. If you're a CO? You get dozens per day, so my whining is likely the least of his worries:

"CO,

Just a heads up that ‘emails per minute’ is increasing again beyond comfortable rates of fire, at my end anyways.

I know that it’s all done in an authentic effort to keep people informed and to lean forward with planning as much as possible but, as always, there’s a fine line between important communications and SPAM.

And, ironically, I’ve just added to the pile with this email  

Thanks for your consideration.

Daftandbarmy"


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## SupersonicMax (3 May 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I have sent 3 emails like this in the past 6 months or so, to no avail. If you're a CO? You get dozens per day, so my whining is likely the least of his worries:
> 
> "CO,
> 
> ...



I did say CoC, not CO.  If it is indeed an issue, it will be dealt with.


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## Journeyman (4 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I've never heard of that. What would it be under?


"Seek out and accept responsibility" :dunno:


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## Fishbone Jones (4 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I've never heard of that. What would it be under?





			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Do you really want to be a lower deck lawyer?



I'd like to see the reference.


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## daftandbarmy (4 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Being the RegF officer in the RSS position, I can tell you it's a constant internal struggle to decide whether to send an email to a members' civilian or military email.
> 
> I'm used to quick responses and quick turn arounds in the RegF, and I've really had reign myself in to learn to decide what is and isn't time sensitive, and stop and think how/when to send emails out to the Class-As.
> 
> ...



I've just received an email about trying to urgently deconflict some training that's double booked at the armoury on our synch matrix.... 

...in October 2018.


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## Haggis (4 May 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I've just received an email about trying to urgently deconflict some training that's double booked at the armoury on our synch matrix....
> 
> ...in October 2018.



"Regret short notice."


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## Remius (4 May 2018)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Just don't answer the phone/e-mail outside hours where you're signed in?
> 
> You're not under any obligation to do so.



Absolutely.  But in my experience, those people then are the first to complain when they miss taskings, or dates change or don't respond in time or they get bumped off a list.  Or when they get NES letters or whatever. 

I have no issues with radio silence.  But I also have no sympathy for their complaints.


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## chrisf (4 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Absolutely.  But in my experience, those people then are the first to complain when they miss taskings, or dates change or don't respond in time or they get bumped off a list.  Or when they get NES letters or whatever.



How often does all this happen in less than a week though?

How did we handle admin before the invention of email, cell phone, and text???

Prior to leaving the forces, I got extremely fed up with what seemed like completely unecassary changes to plans over the course of a week between parade nights.

As far as I was concerned, when the troops walked put the door at the end of a training nighy, there should know exactly what was happening the next training night, giving them a week to prepare and plan around their civilian lives accordingly.

Routinely however, over the course of the week, there'd be a half dozen emails, phone calls, or text messages, changing the plan.

Inevitably, at least some people would miss some of this communication (I have another whole angry rant about the words "didn't you get my text message?")  and it would only end it confusion.

Courtesy of working on a base dispersed over a couple of kilometers, very often the first hour of an evening was wasted just trying to get everyone to the one spot.

Reality is, the reserve world operates 1 night a week and 1 or 2 weekends a month.

Learn to work within those restrictions, it's the system you have.


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## Remius (4 May 2018)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> How often does all this happen in less than a week though?
> 
> How did we handle admin before the invention of email, cell phone, and text???



A lot. Like last week trying to get guys on course.  Last minute spots opened up.

or when brigade needs names by Friday or dates suddenly change.

Or if said troop happens to miss a training night the one week has now become two.  A lot can change in two weeks. 

We'll get staff checks with little detail and when the details become more clear then we have to re confirm. if buddy can't be bothered to respond until next week, I move onto the next person on the list.  Sometimes it will have to be first come first serve depending on how short notice things are.

Keep in mind that it also depends on when your training night is.  if it is a Monday or Tuesday, what you pass on in person might/will have changed by Thursday or Friday.  

Phone calls.  But if you are not going to answer and have no answering machine that isn't my problem.


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## Remius (4 May 2018)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Reality is, the reserve world operates 1 night a week and 1 or 2 weekends a month.
> 
> Learn to work within those restrictions, it's the system you have.



Sorry, but that is the theory.  The reality is far from that. 

We do.  Which is why I don't bemoan people who don't answer emails or phones calls.  But I also don't care if they chose to do that and missed out. Not my problem any more than it was theirs when they opted not to respond.


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## daftandbarmy (4 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> A lot. Phone calls.  But if you are not going to answer and have no answering machine that isn't my problem.



Ironically, we still do annual 'fan outs' by phone, just like 1979.

So we will inundate you with the trivial by email daily, then try to reach you at a number (and technology) you never use for the most urgent annually.


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## Mike5 (4 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Army's new funding model assumes about 100 days/year for unit command team.
> 
> That's five months full-time (at 20 working days/month).  How we expect Res unit command teams to (a) be senior leaders in their civilian jobs (b) be engaged in their community and (c) maintain some semblance of a family life, while working five months a year of evenings and weekends eludes me.
> 
> ...



I resemble that comment .  I am a junior officer of my Res unit and (a) am a senior leader in my civilian job, (b) a Scout Leader, Little League coach and SAR volunteer in my community and (c) have a semblance of a family life.   And my spreadsheets are often late


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## Remius (4 May 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Ironically, we still do annual 'fan outs' by phone, just like 1979.
> 
> So we will inundate you with the trivial by email daily, then try to reach you at a number (and technology) you never use for the most urgent annually.



Yep.  Phoning is still the best way to get a positive confirmation that someone received the info...


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## brihard (4 May 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Ironically, we still do annual 'fan outs' by phone, just like 1979.
> 
> So we will inundate you with the trivial by email daily, then try to reach you at a number (and technology) you never use for the most urgent annually.



As soon as I get a fan out by any means, I immediately blast it in a succinct email the my section with request that they text or email when they got it. I then text them all to the effect of “fanout just came down, check your email ASAP”. Usually replies start almost immediately, and then I start the phone calls a couple minutes later in descending order of those I know are usually slowest to see email/text. It works well, usually by the time I call 3 or 4 the rest already replied concurrently by written means. Last iteration of this I was at a birthday party when Gatineau started going underwater and we got an 11pm Friday warning order.


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## Jarnhamar (4 May 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> "Seek out and accept responsibility" :dunno:



Problem is the guys and girls who seek out and look for loopholes. Then jag gets involved with all their rules and get out of jail free cards  ;D


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## Remius (4 May 2018)

Ours was when immigrants started appearing at the Cornwall border crossing.  Fan out went out during summer stand down...


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## Lumber (4 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the reference.





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought you were serious.  I have a soldier without a phone, as far as I'm aware, and I was curious if there was an actual rule about providing contact info if you have it.



Ok I'm not 100% certain but it really seems like you guys are trying to be lower deck lawyers. 

Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?


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## SupersonicMax (4 May 2018)

Because of the 0.1%, we have to make rules to replace common sense.  Let's keep removing any logical reasonning and leadership from the equation...


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## chrisf (4 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?



A high readiness reserve unit?


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## Lumber (4 May 2018)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> A high readiness reserve unit?



Their arguments were not specific to reserve units, but whether or not the CO (of any unit) has authority to order a member to provide accurate contact information, whatever it might be.


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## Haggis (4 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Their arguments were not specific to reserve units, but whether or not the CO (of any unit) has authority to order a member to provide accurate contact information, whatever it might be.



And that contact information could be a cell number...

...or a landline number.....

...or a grid reference.


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## Jarnhamar (4 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Ok I'm not 100% certain but it really seems like you guys are trying to be lower deck lawyers.
> 
> Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?


All the time.  But how is this a matter of trying to be a pseudo lawyer?  

I've seen my unit try and charge soldiers for not answering the phone in the middle of the night and missing unit recalls.  When that got shot down they were given extras. 

But where in the QR&Os etc.. does it say a member must have a phone and answer it when called?  I've been put on X hour/day notice to move but never given a pager or cell phone to be contacted on. As pointed out, members must have an address where they can be reached.  Doesn't mention phones as far as I know. 



For the reserves and fastballs/tasks I made a Facebook page and would post the times dates and details of the job/task and say first one to contact me gets it.  The Coy OC previously demanded all tasks and coursenominations get vetted through him.  Sometimes that was a 2 or 3 week turn around. Lots of missed job and course opportunities. The unit also wanted certain soldiers not to be given tasks/jobs (as a form of punishment, which I don't disagree with) but refused to put it in writing.


----------



## Loachman (4 May 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Because of the 0.1%, we have to make rules to replace common sense.  Let's keep removing any logical reasonning and leadership from the equation...



Have you ever been a member of an Army Reserve unit?


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> For the reserves and fastballs/tasks I made a Facebook page and would post the times dates and details of the job/task and say first one to contact me gets it.



We had an RSSWO who did exactly that and it was an excellent process. He gathered in all the applications on FB for various courses/tasks, emailed the COC for a fast approval/ denial, then processed everything within the same day. Brilliant.

It took a bunch of reservists to mess up that approach after he left us, sadly.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (4 May 2018)

I was Ops O in a Reserve Unit, then RSS, and then 10/90, all before e-mail.

The direction from higher came by phone, or by message - the latter a laborious process, and so the phone was preferred.  Orders and directives for an exercise were handraulic, and then went thru the Gestetner or photo copier.

We made plans, and executed them in an efficient and vertical manner, unencumbered by horizontal (ie cc effect) opportunities for everyone to chime in.  We either phoned people, or waiting until Tuesday night.

More immediate comms does NOT equal more efficiency.

I think perhaps texting, Facebook and e-mails are the problem, not the solution.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 May 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I think perhaps texting, Facebook and e-mails  lazy leaders who can't be bothered with proper battle procedure are the problem, not the solution.



There, FTFY


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 May 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I was Ops O in a Reserve Unit, then RSS, and then 10/90, all before e-mail.
> 
> The direction from higher came by phone, or by message - the latter a laborious process, and so the phone was preferred.  Orders and directives for an exercise were handraulic, and then went thru the Gestetner or photo copier.
> 
> ...



ff topic:  But ...

... speaking as someone who has some knowledge about communications systems and technology and some ~ less than some here ~ military and command experience, I want to say just how important PPCLI GUY's insight is.

I've been retired, retired for a decade now but when I was serving and in my decade long second career I rubbed elbows with e.g. George Cope, CEO of _Bell_ and Bob Simmonds, former Chairman of _Clearnet_ (now _TELUS Mobility_) and I will tell you that THEY ~ high tech industry CEOs ~ were worried about the impact that mass, immediate, and especially _lateral_ comms was having on their business practices. I watched as the, then CEO of one major firm, did a major "about turn" on the subject of how "connected" his executives and manager needed to be: he went from imagining trying to get a 24/7 "connected" work force to insisting that mobile phones and pagers and so on (now smartphones) went off for at least _n_ hours every day so that executives and managers could relax, "regroup," mentally and ponder, rather than just reacting.

Before that I was instrumental, in the 1970s and '80s at defining some of the technical aspects of military C3; that was, of course, before we had mobile (or even transportable) computing but not before we understood its potential ... and it scared many of our best thinkers because they could not believe that we, humans, could "manage" the incredible volumes of "information" that would be available. We had a test bed at the (then) Defence and Civil Institute of Aviation Medicine (DCIEM) in Toronto and I recall, vividly, a frighteningly bright defence scientist and a very, very fine general (with an MC for bravery) discussing the practical impossibility of sound _*information management*_ when all people wanted was more and More and MORE.

To paraphrase PPCLI GUY _quantity_ *≠* _quality_. (I might have made quantity red and quality blue because in tactical C2 _I believe_ that one is your enemy and the other other your friend.) One of the jobs of commanders, from a Recce Pl Patrol Det Commander to a brigade group commander is to _*decide*_ on what matters and pass it up and put the dross aside ... as an observation by an old, retired outsider if it is on _PowerPoint_ it is very, very likely dross.

Information is a valuable, vital tool: IF you can trust it. You can trust it as much as you trust the source ~ if the source is Sgt Jones in 5 Pl of B Coy then you know it's probably "good gen," if, on the other hand, the source is some fancy and emote 'All Source Intelligence
 Center' then I would suggest that your trust should be a whole lot less. We "gamed' this in the 1970s in the UK: we demonstrated just how, in a totally manual system, one piece of information could be "grown" into serious _*mis*information _when it was "handled" in a _stovepipe_ by an intelligence system that stopped, actually, being about _*intelligence *_and became, instead, an "information collection" function. 

It's a bit like the Internet ~ it is full of enormous volumes of information ... some of which is actually true and useful. (And those two things are not always tied together.)

I'm not going to launch into a diatribe about information management ... but I am not convinced that anyone in the Government of Canada, and certainly not in DND or the CF, actually "gets it."

To repeat: _*More immediate comms does NOT equal more efficiency.*_

If you don't understand and believe that then you are part of the problem.

< end highjack>


----------



## ModlrMike (4 May 2018)

PPCLI Guy, Edward... I would take it one step further: more immediate comms has a detrimental effect on efficiency.

We've cluttered the daily battle space with so much information that we're reduced to picking fly sh!t out of pepper.

Some of us have so much traffic in our inboxes, that it takes an inordinate amount of time to find and respond to what's really important, as opposed to what the various senders think is important... because everything is sent with high priority.

I'm the LogO for a unit of 150 part timers. There's no way I'm sufficiently important to have 100 emails between tuesday and thursday, let alone the mountain that accumulates over the weekend. All of which need to be responded to immediately.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (4 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Ok I'm not 100% certain but it really seems like you guys are trying to be lower deck lawyers.



Why is that the default for anyone who says "show me the policy"?   The same people who tend to use that term are also usually the ones who point to NES policy, etc.  It has to cut both ways;  the CofC can't haul out the Regs at when it works in their favour, but refuse to take the same regs into consideration when dealing with subordinates.  



> Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?



Yup, I have been for years now and, back in yester-year I was also a Cl A type.  It's comparing apples to bowling balls.  Cl A folks are just that, Cl A - they are not high ready (because the reality is, if you call them, they don't have to answer the phone).  I am on high ready (deployment) and I also hold standby on weekends when I'm not away.  I don't have the option to not answer my cell.  They don't get the pay, vacation, benefits and other stuff we get with our Reg Force TOS.  If I'm not on the Standby crew on a Friday when I leave the Sqn, the next expected timing I have is 0800 Monday morning.  I can go to "anywhere in Canada" without a leave pass - heck I don't even have to tell anyone I am going anywhere, I don't have to answer my phone if it rings, I don't have to be at my home because when I left my unit, my next timing was...Monday at 0800.  I'm Reg Force, still receiving my pay and benefits but I am not "on duty".   Why would you or anyone expect more from a Cl A reservist, and if you are, is that really fair to them?

The Cl A reserve world is a 'part time' job, and the system is set up so people can make some training, and miss some.  They are class A so they can decide what they want to attend and what one to say "F that" to.  If they don't show up, they also don't get paid.  That's just how that ball bounces, and it tends to be in the Cl A reservists court vice their CofCs.


----------



## medicineman (5 May 2018)

Yeah, used to annoy me somewhat when I was a Class A - I'd answer emails periodically, usually on my days off from my real job.  Funnily enough, the ones that were the worst/most annoying were generated by Reg Force HQ cubicle dwellers who had never worked a day in the civilian sector and couldn't understand that I couldn't just drop what I was doing  to go on a course or exercise or overseas gig without significant planning and forethought, not to mention the concurrence from the people that actually pay me my salary (as opposed to my coffee money).  

One less thing to worry about now...

MM


----------



## Haggis (5 May 2018)

This thread/poll has generated a lot more traffic than I anticipated and this is good.  The view points expressed here all point to the same thing.  Immediate comms do not equal more efficiency.

I was PPCLI Guy's Ops WO "back in the day".  Things were simpler when your Bde (Militia District) had to actually put thought into what they were asking for because it would take considerable manual effort and valuable time to generate a return.  And, for those same reasons, they had to forecast their information/data needs and be very prescriptive in what they were asking for.

Now, HQs have become accustomed to being able to generate returns on a quick cycle due, mostly, because technology makes information and statistics easy to obtain, collate and transmit.  This starts right at the top with HQs who do "deep dives" into units to gain information on how XXX is performing or staff check on YYY to see if it's a feasible COA.  In the past, staff officers would have to use their experience and judgement  to determine that because commanders would take a staff officers assessment at face value and not demand that the assessment be shown to be based on detailed analysis and data derived from deep dives and RFIs.  This, in my mind, is symptomatic of a risk averse organization where decisions are subject to "retro-analysis".

Please keep answering the poll and, more importantly, post your stories of how this has worked/not worked for you and your unit.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Ok I'm not 100% certain but it really seems like you guys are trying to be lower deck lawyers.
> 
> Have you honestly never been employed by a high readiness unit which requires you to be contactable?



That's not an answer to my request.

In regards to your second off topic question. Yes. No one had phones, even at home.


----------



## Lumber (5 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's not an answer to my request.
> 
> In regards to your second off topic question. Yes. No one had phones, even at home.





			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Why is that the default for anyone who says "show me the policy"?   The same people who tend to use that term are also usually the ones who point to NES policy, etc.  It has to cut both ways;  the CofC can't haul out the Regs at when it works in their favour, but refuse to take the same regs into consideration when dealing with subordinates.





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> All the time.  But how is this a matter of trying to be a pseudo lawyer?



Ok, I get it now. You guys just misunderstood what I was saying, so I probably wasn't being clear enough.

I wasn't saying that everyone has to have a phone, nor was I saying that everyone (including class-A reservists) needs to answer their phones (if they have them).

Recceguy said that the number they had on file for him in the unit's nominal roll lead to a disconnected number.

I said, the chain of command has every right to ask you what your contact information is. If all you have is an address and no phone or email, that's fine, but you have to tell them. If you simply refuse, to tell them your address, phone number, or a reliable email if that's all you have, I think a CO would have grounds to  charge. Further, you can't lie about what your contact information is. If you don't want to give them your phone number, but they insist, and so you give them a fake number, I believe that could also lead to a charge.

Not everything needs a reference to back it up; a lawful order by the CO is any order that is neither manifestly unlawful (murder, rape, theft), nor specifically prohibited by regulations. It's the actual lack of a reference to the contrary that makes the CO order lawful. Source: this is exactly what my local AJAG described to me.


----------



## Lumber (5 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> PPCLI Guy, Edward... I would take it one step further: more immediate comms has a detrimental effect on efficiency.
> 
> We've cluttered the daily battle space with so much information that we're reduced to picking fly sh!t out of pepper.
> 
> ...



(ModlrMike, I don't know how I'm only realizing now that you're Navy working for an NRD. )

For everyone else, I agree there's too much information; I'm constantly filling out spreadsheets and submitting reports to HQ for readiness levels for everything (medical, C7, 404, dental, ID, Trailering, TDGC, FORCE, security clearances, et), reprot for HISB training, for employment equity training, to ethics training, etc... they want to know about and track everything!

But, I would also say it's not just information overload, but also tasking overload. Let me explain.

Earlier I said I had to learn when to send to people's civilian emails vs their military emails. If it could wait 2 days, I would send to their civilian emails... _but not always!_ The Class-A department heads only have so much time on tuesday/thursday night to deal with all of the projects they've been assigned, and on top of that they have department meetings, head of department meetings, maybe there's a promotion parade, maybe their's a guest speaker, maybe there's the annual ethics brief or annual security brief that night (shit that reminds me, we never did those last year...). So when I'm deciding to send it to their military emails because it's not time sensitive, I also ask myself, while he actually have any time at all on Thursday to read and address this issue? Maybe it will get read but not actioned, and then he'll forget about it over the weekend, and then it will get lost in his inbox by the time he comes in next.

So, in these cases I might send it to his civilian email; not because it's time sensitive, but because I know there's so much on his plate, and so much that going to happen during the next training/admin night, that the only way I think it will actually get taken care of is if it gets sent to his civilian email.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Ok, I get it now. You guys just misunderstood what I was saying, so I probably wasn't being clear enough.
> 
> I wasn't saying that everyone has to have a phone, nor was I saying that everyone (including class-A reservists) needs to answer their phones (if they have them).
> 
> ...



Sorry Lumber, you are the one that misunderstood. I never said a 'disconnected' number. I said and 'unlisted' number. Meaning the number wasn't to be published or passed around and used for emergencies only.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 May 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Ok, I get it now. You guys just misunderstood what I was saying, so I probably wasn't being clear enough.
> 
> I wasn't saying that everyone has to have a phone, nor was I saying that everyone (including class-A reservists) needs to answer their phones (if they have them).
> 
> ...



Thanks for the additional 'context' info.  I think I get what you're laying down now.  I recently did the UDI/CL training with the AJAG and it was evident that admin actions are far easier to use than disciplinary, even for CL B folks not employed at Reg Force units, as they are only on duty and subj to the CSD during duty hours (and that is not 24/7).


----------



## Lumber (5 May 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Sorry Lumber, you are the one that misunderstood. I never said a 'disconnected' number. I said and 'unlisted' number. Meaning the number wasn't to be published or passed around and used for emergencies only.



Ah. My bad then. I misunderstood what you meant by unlisted. Then yes, I think if you're concerned about privacy that your CoC can have your number in a separate recall list that isn't available to the rest of the unit. We have those on ship too.


----------



## runormal (5 May 2018)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Now, HQs have become accustomed to being able to generate returns on a quick cycle due, mostly, because technology makes information and statistics easy to obtain, collate and transmit.  This starts right at the top with HQs who do "deep dives" into units to gain information on how XXX is performing or staff check on YYY to see if it's a feasible COA.  In the past, staff officers would have to use their experience and judgement  to determine that because commanders would take a staff officers assessment at face value and not demand that the assessment be shown to be based on detailed analysis and data derived from deep dives and RFIs.  This, in my mind, is symptomatic of a risk averse organization where decisions are subject to "retro-analysis".





			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> For everyone else, I agree there's too much information; I'm constantly filling out spreadsheets and submitting reports to HQ for readiness levels for everything (medical, C7, 404, dental, ID, Trailering, TDGC, FORCE, security clearances, et), reprot for HISB training, for employment equity training, to ethics training, etc... they want to know about and track everything!



Providing your orderly room is up to date (which has been the case for the two units I've worked at) why can't the Div/Brigade just pull all of this data from Monitor Mass/Peoplesoft themselves ? Why would they even need to ask you for this stuff? This doesn't make any sense and it poor use of everyone's time. You can follow up with individual units as required based on what you query. I.E "We noticed that your last Force test was held in 2016, is this accurate?" It's not really that difficult.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (5 May 2018)

I actually think that Defence Program Analytics (business intelligence) *should* be a huge boon to the Reserves.  We have to stop having WO and Capts filling in each other's spreadsheets.  It is a ridiculous waste of time.  If we have good baseline (and well curated) data in systems of records (HRMS, CFTPO, DRMIS etc) as well as the odd bespoke spreadsheet or database properly curated in the Business Warehouse, then reports and returns can and will be updated in seconds.  

There are two elements to DPA - good data, and good reports (that answer good questions).  Lower levels should focus only on ensuring that we have valid and accurate data, and higher levels (and I mean L1 and L2) should be the ones that create the reports.  That ensures that the burden of skill (specialists trained in DPA) does not get transferred to the Armoury floor. 

There are over 400 reports already available within the system,  Each one of them creates links to data sources of record, and arranges / manipulates them to answer a question, or to provide insight to decision makers.  Those reports are easily tailored from the corporate level to the Armoury floor.

DPA is coming, whether you agree or not.  If we fight it, we will spend all of our time reporting bad data to unnecessary staff officers.  If we leverage it (and the over $1B that the institution has already spent on the system) we will find ourselves with a solid start point for cutting staff bloat.  If reports and returns are automated, why do we need all those staff Capts and Majors?

The key here is to automated the mundane, so that we can focus of the sublime.  Less reports and return fuckery, and more field training.

My  :2c:


----------



## kratz (5 May 2018)

I was one of the few career Class B types.

The rare breaks that I was a Class A, I contributed to the current "on call" mentality.
I did the crap jobs and was offered the jammy jobs faster because I was "always" available.
Those extra jobs, earned me more skills / qualifications than if I had of stuck to the minimum mantra:
"A Wednesday night and a Saturday per month".

As a department clerk, I had to receive, process, sort, push all comms (email, voice, written ect)...
between my SHO (F/T & P/T), CoC (F/T & P/T), members of my department (F/T & P/T), and other parts of the ship's company 
(F/T & P/T).

On average, I was working the two half nights (incoming info), and working another 2 days (outgoing / confirming) each week. 
Yes, NavRes HQ had to approve additional days per year for me, but the work was done on time and our pers were looked after.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (5 May 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> I was one of the few career Class B types.



I don't think that word means what you think it means....


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 May 2018)

If I was a civilian boss and my employee was also a reservist who was answering CAF-related  emails while I was paying them to work for me (whether on a company email or personal) I'd probably take issue with it.


----------



## brihard (5 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If I was a civilian boss and my employee was also a reservist who was answering CAF-related  emails while I was paying them to work for me (whether on a company email or personal) I'd probably take issue with it.



I am aware of one extreme case of a civilian lawyer working under DND who lost their job for crossing the streams excessively and inappropriately.


----------



## kratz (5 May 2018)

Jarnhamar,

At entry level jobs, like Walmart or Tim Hortons, where they time your output, I understand your point of view.

Skilled or results jobs, wouldn't blink at mixed time, as long as the goals are achieved.


----------



## dapaterson (5 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If I was a civilian boss and my employee was also a reservist who was answering CAF-related  emails while I was paying them to work for me (whether on a company email or personal) I'd probably take issue with it.



Depends on the employer and employee.  If Bob spends an hour a day answering CAF emails, and stays an hour late (without asking for overtime or other stuff) then it's a wash.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Depends on the employer and employee.  If Bob spends an hour a day answering CAF emails, and stays an hour late (without asking for overtime or other stuff) then it's a wash.



I'd say Bob was a Russian spy  ;D


----------



## Nfld Sapper (5 May 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I don't think that word means what you think it means....









 ;D


----------



## medicineman (5 May 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> DPA is coming, whether you agree or not.  If we fight it, we will spend all of our time reporting bad data to unnecessary staff officers.  If we leverage it (and the over $1B that the institution has already spent on the system) we will find ourselves with a solid start point for cutting staff bloat.  If reports and returns are automated, why do we need all those staff Capts and Majors?
> 
> The key here is to automated the mundane, so that we can focus of the sublime.  Less reports and return fuckery, and more field training.
> 
> My  :2c:



Does NDHQ burn heretics at the stake or just make them walk around with a red "H" on their epaulettes?

 ;D

MM


----------



## runormal (5 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Depends on the employer and employee.  If Bob spends an hour a day answering CAF emails, and stays an hour late (without asking for overtime or other stuff) then it's a wash.



This is what I do, it's a conversation I haven't  had, and at this point it's a conversation that I don't want to have. I'm not really sure what my employer would say.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 May 2018)

I wonder how most people's CofC would react if in the middle of a training night or weekend ex, they said "Oh I have to take this call/reply to this email from my regular job.  Can we hold off the advance/range practice etc for a bit here?"


----------



## medicineman (5 May 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I wonder how most people's CofC would react if in the middle of a training night or weekend ex, they said "Oh I have to take this call/reply to this email from my regular job.  Can we hold off the advance/range practice etc for a bit here?"



I actually had a lecture I was giving interrupted by just that one night...and had to give urgent treatment direction over the phone, so maybe the young'uns learned something other than what was originally in the lesson plan.

MM


----------



## mariomike (5 May 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> Skilled or results jobs, wouldn't blink at mixed time, as long as the goals are achieved.



Depends on the goal, I suppose.  

As long as we were "wheels rolling" within 60 seconds of the tones going off, they didn't care who you talked to.


----------



## AbdullahD (5 May 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I wonder how most people's CofC would react if in the middle of a training night or weekend ex, they said "Oh I have to take this call/reply to this email from my regular job.  Can we hold off the advance/range practice etc for a bit here?"



To be honest I think the armed forces may have to consider that as acceptable* in the future. A lot of professionals have to take those calls due to their career choice and making these concessions could create the possibility of higher caliber recruits.. like in say kamloops an infantry reserve as per my understanding and let's say a doctor wishes to sign up... allowing that leniency could really augment that reserve group if something really happened on the home front.

Abdullah

*for limited persons and reasons with controls in place of course.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (6 May 2018)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Does NDHQ burn heretics at the stake or just make them walk around with a red "H" on their epaulettes?
> 
> ;D
> 
> MM



I am, indeed, Don Quixote....


----------



## donaldk (6 May 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I actually think that Defence Program Analytics (business intelligence) *should* be a huge boon to the Reserves.  We have to stop having WO and Capts filling in each other's spreadsheets.  It is a ridiculous waste of time.  If we have good baseline (and well curated) data in systems of records (HRMS, CFTPO, DRMIS etc) as well as the odd bespoke spreadsheet or database properly curated in the Business Warehouse, then reports and returns can and will be updated in seconds.
> 
> There are two elements to DPA - good data, and good reports (that answer good questions).  Lower levels should focus only on ensuring that we have valid and accurate data, and higher levels (and I mean L1 and L2) should be the ones that create the reports.  That ensures that the burden of skill (specialists trained in DPA) does not get transferred to the Armoury floor.
> 
> ...



Someone as NAVRESHQ forgot that memo and also the MCS userguide - the amount of reports my RSS staff get requested for the same thing (slightly different wording) is absolutely gut-wrenching due to the hours wasted - whereas they honestly could just enforce proper data entry and have scheduled pulls from MCSC and MITE.  GBA+, EE, and that fucking failure of OPHTAS (reverted to using the old Excel sheet for now) alone have consumed roughly 100 man-hours in troubleshooting/query setup/emails.  OPHTAS reporting system - well LOL to the misery that shit show is.   Another little annoyance was the repetitive OPQs because some honourable person had a spaz fit shit fest over Uber being used for official travel (i.e. TD); P.S. My unit actually has banned the use of shared economy travel services while on TD thanks to these OPQs  :tsktsk:

As for emailing Class As, very rarely is anything I do with Class As time sensitive unless it involves travel arrangements (or a couple HARD to get PERs... those fuckers are going "UNABLE TO SIGN" 15 May).  For the RSS Adjts/AdminOs on here - get access be it yourself or delegated to the big data systems (HRMS-MITE/Monitor-MASS/MCS CFTPO/MCS CFRIMS/DRMIS - FI and MA&S (your MRP)/WebSCPS V2) and make sure the data input is correct.  If by virtue of your trade you can get master/superview privileges get them even if they exceed your HQ's normal priv sets  (my DRMIS MA&S superview is nice )


----------



## RedcapCrusader (6 May 2018)

I'll start being more connected if the CAF starts paying my phone bill.


----------



## MJP (6 May 2018)

donaldk said:
			
		

> Someone as NAVRESHQ forgot that memo and also the MCS userguide -  If by virtue of your trade you can get master/superview privileges get them even if they exceed your HQ's normal priv sets  (my DRMIS MA&S superview is nice )



The MCS userguide is pure junk.  They rolled out a suite of products much like DRMIS that we then failed to train anyone on in any meaningful manner and wonder why the collective staff levels can't pull data properly.  Not to mention that both products are very much Garbage In Garbage Out because there is no institutional rigor to the data being inputted nor are there enough trained people at the right levels to fix it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 May 2018)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> I'll start being more connected if the CAF starts paying my phone bill.



I tried that. Not my whole bill just itimized "work" numbers. I was told to prove the numbers on the bill were work related calls. Who the number was and what the conversation was about. I'm not sure if that was a legit request or me being jerked around but I got the message.


Maybe when units do their whole NEO tasking/ very high readiness / stuff they should issue everyone pagers. Maybe a bonus of some sort too. 


For the reserves though in my experience the reserves would shut down without members doing tons of extra work they're not paid for, volunteering work and especially working from home. 

It may not be the same now but I think in the past there was a strong "you don't put the extra free work in, you don't get the good tasks".

[A reservist class-b company ops nco can really sort a lot of that crap out]


----------



## Remius (6 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I tried that. Not my whole bill just itimized "work" numbers. I was told to prove the numbers on the bill were work related calls. Who the number was and what the conversation was about. I'm not sure if that was a legit request or me being jerked around but I got the message.
> 
> 
> Maybe when units do their whole NEO tasking/ very high readiness / stuff they should issue everyone pagers. Maybe a bonus of some sort too.
> ...



The best is when they expect you to use your cell phone on ex because comms goes down.

Agree whole hearted about the reserves shutting down.  

We were issued pagers and cell phones for op abacus.  And given a day’s pay for being on call New Year’s Eve/day.

There was a time where free work was expected.   Now they try to back it up with some pay sheets. Some times.


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## Haggis (6 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> There was a time where free work was expected.   Now they try to back it up with some pay sheets. Some times.



I remember signing pink pay sheets for extra work such as admin, pre and post ex drills etc.  Those were the ones that would get submitted at years end IF there was any money left.

Now CF Mil Pers instr 20-04 para 2.14 prohibits unpaid or volunteer duty.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> the reserves would shut down without members doing tons of extra work they're not paid for, volunteering work and especially working from home.



It was that way 2+ decades ago when I was doing the CL A gig...and I suspect it will continue to happen.  Why?

No one want to fail their subordinates or their superiors, most PRes people are dedicated.  By "fixing" the problem immediate/short term by making it work, they prolong the amount of time the immediate/short term fixes are required.  It is a case of 'the solution today is the problem tomorrow'.
  
How long has that been going on?   For at least 2+ decades now...


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## runormal (7 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> The best is when they expect you to use your cell phone on ex because comms goes down.



What's really the issue here? At least in Ontario every cellphone plan that I've ever had since has included unlimited weekends. With apps such as Tac Nav/Battle Pro there isn't a reason not to bring it out to the field (other than the obvious reasons).  I'd say the bigger issue is that there wasn't a proper PACE Plan so that you didn't have to do this in the first place. There are limitations with weekend exercises, but there is definitely easy enough ways to do this. Has anyone ever broken a phone on ex and tried to claim it for this reason?

I really don't see the issue with using a personal phone for work purposes every now and then. I.E When I traveled with my day job the world didn't end when I used my personal phone to call ubers/use google maps to find the a venue or office. Probably once or twice a month I send/receive urgent text messages for my day job "Hey can you check XXX out it doesn't look right, no problem let me VPN in". I'm not at a high enough level to be issued a company phone (which I don't want, because there is an expectation to use it), but texts are free and I never go over my minutes because I'm working when the limits are in place. I've taken the odd call while on vacation, but it's about understanding what's important and what isn't and having a team that understand this.

The difference between my day job and the reserves though is that I feel much more valued at my day job and when I look up I see opportunity, promotions and more interesting work. Not that doesn't exist in the reserves, but the expectations and the compensation provided for being a TP WO doesn't seem worth it. What's my biggest priority in the reserves right now? PDRs that aren't going to make a world of difference, because everyone's already loaded on FTSE for various courses/tasks... However, I'm more than happy to spend my limited free time doing them, hopefully they don't get lost before they get filed :rofl:.


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## Remius (7 May 2018)

Roaming charges, some troops have pay as you go plans, and yes sometimes they can be damaged.

This isn't about a text or two.  It's about using our cell phones as 522's on exercise.  This rarely happens at the unit level but I've seen it on large concentrations or collective exercises.  If cell phones are the back up then issue them.


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## SupersonicMax (7 May 2018)

Just don't use your phone in the field if you don't want.


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## chrisf (7 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> This isn't about a text or two.  It's about using our cell phones as 522's on exercise.  This rarely happens at the unit level but I've seen it on large concentrations or collective exercises.  If cell phones are the back up then issue them.



This is still a problem.

The military has developed an over reliance on cell phones, that will bite them.

It is and already should be a "lesson learned", but folks refuse to learn it.

In 2010, 4 ESR deployed to rebuild a bridge in Newfoundland following hurricane Igor.

Initially the command team scoffed at the inclusion the local reserve signals squadron in the deployment, as their intent was to use cell phones for admin and safety.

Shortly into the deployment it was discovered there was no cell service in, or even near Trouty, to get coverage involved to set driving 50km over heavily damaged roads.

No cell towers had been damaged, some were affected by power outages, but this was simply a place with no cell coverage.

The HQ, all support elements, including medics, and the nearest civilian hospital, were all located in clarenville 75km away.

A VHF RRB link was established for admin, and safety.


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## Remius (7 May 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Just don't use your phone in the field if you don't want.



well aware.  My point is that there is the expectation.  Hell, they even include that as a fail safe in their planning at times.


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## dapaterson (7 May 2018)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> In 2010, 4 ESR deployed to rebuild a bridge in Newfoundland following hurricane Igor.
> 
> Initially the command team scoffed at the inclusion the local reserve signals squadron in the deployment, as their intent was to use cell phones for admin and safety.
> 
> Shortly into the deployment it was discovered there was no cell service in, or even near Trouty, to get coverage involved to set driving 50km over heavily damaged roads.



The Army built a bridge at Trouty?


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## Jarnhamar (7 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> well aware.  My point is that there is the expectation.  Hell, they even include that as a fail safe in their planning at times.



Doesn't the C in a paCe plan stand for Cell phone?  ;D


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## Oldgateboatdriver (7 May 2018)

What! You never heard of the Bridge on the River Trout?  ;D

And, isn't  using the phone system the way the US Marines call in artillery fire? (p.s.: It was so funny that Clint Eastwood put it in his movie Heartbreak Ridge)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7RqMDU9eDI


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## chrisf (7 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Army built a bridge at Trouty?



https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/military-builds-bridge-in-town-isolated-by-igor-1.558001


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## daftandbarmy (7 May 2018)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Just don't use your phone in the field if you don't want.



In the past, I have made this clear to my troops. Unfortunately, they are too interested in doing a first class job in the face of the inadequate communications equipment provided by the CAF to pay much attention to me.


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## chrisf (7 May 2018)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> What! You never heard of the Bridge on the River Trout?  ;D



No me ol' trout... Trout River is on the west coast... the bridge was in Trouty.

Bare in mind, this is the same province thats home to the communities of Blow Me Down, Dildo, Black Hole, and a whole lot of other ridiculous place names

Most of those places also have terrible cell phone coverage.


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## BDTyre (7 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> The best is when they expect you to use your cell phone on ex because comms goes down.



Or when the GPS was loaded with the wrong data...


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## daniey3 (7 May 2018)

:not-again: :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## Oldgateboatdriver (7 May 2018)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> No me ol' trout... Trout River is on the west coast... the bridge was in Trouty.



I swear there must be a "Trout" river in every province of Canada, including, to my knowledge, no less than three "rivière à la Truite" just in Québec.  ;D

But I jest: I was just trying to make a play on words with "the Bridge on the River Kwai" and Trouty has two syllables instead of just one, so I cut it down to one. In fact, at Trouty, it's not even a river. The bridge is over a narrow arm of the Atlantic ocean that comes inland from the coast by about 600 meters before spreading out into a small pond-shaped basin. That pond shaped area was well protected from the sea, so that's where the fishermen of the inshore fisheries kept their dories in the old days. The town like many in NL just grew up around that protected basin.


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## chrisf (7 May 2018)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> But I jest: I was just trying to make a play on words with "the Bridge on the River Kwai" and Trouty has two syllables instead of just one, so I cut it down to one. In fact, at Trouty, it's not even a river. The bridge is over a narrow arm of the Atlantic ocean that comes inland from the coast by about 600 meters before spreading out into a small pond-shaped basin. That pond shaped area was well protected from the sea, so that's where the fishermen of the inshore fisheries kept their dories in the old days. The town like many in NL just grew up around that protected basin.



I got your joke, but I also got to bring up Dildo, so it's a win-win.

I did not know that about the bridge though, I've never had reason to go to Trouty, the closest I've been is Dunfield.

Side note, if anyone does find themselves heading to Trouty, stop by for a coffee and a sandwich at Two Whales cafe in Port Rexton, and if you're in Port Rexton anyway, take a few minutes to drop by the brewery.

If you need to make a phone call, you'll need to do it at the top of the hill on either side of the town though.

Its not just small towns in the arse end of Newfoundland though, the same problem exists throughout a surprising amount of our huge country, extremely limited cell phone coverages.

Even in urban areas, cell coverage is reduced severely within 24-48 hours of a power outage, when batteries start dying.

Same thing with any fibre optic based phone systems, even if you have a backup generator available, when pole mounted repeater batteries start dying, service dies.

It's a bit of an aside from the original topic, but the military puts entirely too much reliance on cell phones.

Any sort of aid to civil power exercise should really include the order "no cell phone communications, issued or otherwise" just to see how it goes.


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## runormal (7 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> This isn't about a text or two.  It's about using our cell phones as 522's on exercise.  This rarely happens at the unit level but I've seen it on large concentrations or collective exercises.  If cell phones are the back up then issue them.


They should be, as should be Sat Phones. Heck we _used_ to roll out Line Dets back when I first joined (which still should happen). The comms situation is laughable  with radios, trucks and personel. It's not really a surprise that people are leaving, "make it work" can only go on for so long.



			
				Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> This is still a problem.
> 
> The military has developed an over reliance on cell phones, that will bite them.
> It is and already should be a "lesson learned", but folks refuse to learn it.



100% agreed. As the cell coverage increased it appears that our usefullness has diminished. It seems more important to make it "work", rather than to make sure that collective training is benefical for everyone. Anything complicated? "Fuck it, I'll call Major XXXX on my black berry." Or the classic "Don't worry I'll call C/S 2's OC and tell them to monitor their radios."...

Anyways, this has been an insinghtful thread. 

Thanks


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## dapaterson (7 May 2018)

We shortcut away tremendous problems in training at home - whether signals, CSS or equipment holdings.  The system has failed to supply sufficient radios? Use Motorolas and cell phones.  No trucks?  Rent.  Forgot supplies?  Go back up base side to grab what we need, or go to Home Depot with a credit card (since all deployed ops will be conducted with big box stores within  50 kms).  Need LAVs or tanks?  CFTPO them out to Wainwright, and the problem goes away.

Until the CAF as an institution get serious about addressing these support shortfalls (to say nothing of massive capability gaps - AD, for example) we'll continue to play at Potempkin villages, and conduct exercises where the key lesson learned is that the final attack is always a success.


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## Lumber (8 May 2018)

donaldk said:
			
		

> Someone as NAVRESHQ forgot that memo and also the MCS userguide - the amount of reports my RSS staff get requested for the same thing (slightly different wording) is absolutely gut-wrenching due to the hours wasted - whereas they honestly could just enforce proper data entry and have scheduled pulls from MCSC and MITE.  GBA+, EE, and that ******* failure of OPHTAS (reverted to using the old Excel sheet for now) alone have consumed roughly 100 man-hours in troubleshooting/query setup/emails.  OPHTAS reporting system - well LOL to the misery that crap show is.   Another little annoyance was the repetitive OPQs because some honourable person had a spaz fit crap fest over Uber being used for official travel (i.e. TD); P.S. My unit actually has banned the use of shared economy travel services while on TD thanks to these OPQs  :tsktsk:
> 
> As for emailing Class As, very rarely is anything I do with Class As time sensitive unless it involves travel arrangements (or a couple HARD to get PERs... those ****ers are going "UNABLE TO SIGN" 15 May).  For the RSS Adjts/AdminOs on here - get access be it yourself or delegated to the big data systems (HRMS-MITE/Monitor-MASS/MCS CFTPO/MCS CFRIMS/DRMIS - FI and MA&S (your MRP)/WebSCPS V2) and make sure the data input is correct.  If by virtue of your trade you can get master/superview privileges get them even if they exceed your HQ's normal priv sets  (my DRMIS MA&S superview is nice )



1. What's wrong with OPHTAS? Works fine for me?
2. All PER's signed by (or at least marked "unavailable to sign") by May 15th? Ha! I'll be happy if they're at least all written by May 15th.
3. For DRMIS access, I would recommend that Adjts/AdminOs NOT get DRMIS access. DRMIS is good for two reasons, supply and finance, neither of which is technically supposed to be the Adj/Admino's responsibility; that's why theres a LogO, a SupplyO, AND a BudgetO, plus our Snr FSAs are probably better than all of them at using DRMIS financial. Sure not every unit has all of these positions filled, and it MAY fall on the full time RSS to help out, but let that be the exception not the norm. Don't automatically give all of us DRMIS access or they're going to go to us first for DRMIS reports without first going through the actual "SMEs". Besides, I'm a tech savvy guy; I'm my unit's monitor mass and excel "guru", and I did the DRMIS navigation trg, but on my first time logging into DRMIS I was so blown away at how non-intuitive it was  (I couldn't find ANYTHING) that I deleted the program and never looked at it again.


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## CountDC (14 May 2018)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I remember signing pink pay sheets for extra work such as admin, pre and post ex drills etc.  Those were the ones that would get submitted at years end IF there was any money left.
> 
> Now CF Mil Pers instr 20-04 para 2.14 prohibits unpaid or volunteer duty.



I remember having to rush at the end of the year to figure out how many of those pink pay sheets I could process with the budget left and get them in on time so they did get paid. Start at lowest rank and work upwards.


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