# Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD  [MERGED]



## polisci_student

Hi everyone,

In about a year I'll be graduating from university (political science at Queen's), and have begun looking at grad schools.  I was reading about the Defence Management and Policy programme at RMC, and was wondering if anybody can give me more information about it.  I'm curious about the sort of reputation and career prospects this course has, as well as the sort of students who take it.  I was also wondering what it's like at RMC for civilians.  Do grad students go through ROTP?  If not, would a civilian not wearing uniform fit in with what I would imagine to be a fairly tight clique?  Any information anybody has would be greatly appreciated.  

Thanks in advance.


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## cavalryman

Here's a good start with some info

http://www.rmc.ca/academic/grad/index_e.html

Appears they'll take civilians, so no ROTP required to enter the MA programme.


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## speedbird

Defence Management is a pretty poorly organized program, from the perspective of a War Studies student.
If you talk to Drs. Pentland or Sokolsky, they would likely refer you to War Studies, DM is more like Policy Studies as opposed to Political Studies/IR
Theres a great civilian community at RMC and great interaction with QCIR as well.  Actually the degree of interaction between officers (generally Maj/LCol) and civilian grad students make it a far more beneficial experience then an MA in POLS or IR at Carleton, Queen's etc.


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## KJL

speedbird said:
			
		

> Defence Management is a pretty poorly organized program, from the perspective of a War Studies student.
> If you talk to Drs. Pentland or Sokolsky, they would likely refer you to War Studies, DM is more like Policy Studies as opposed to Political Studies/IR
> Theres a great civilian community at RMC and great interaction with QCIR as well.  Actually the degree of interaction between officers (generally Maj/LCol) and civilian grad students make it a far more beneficial experience then an MA in POLS or IR at Carleton, Queen's etc.



If I can offer a suggestion, I had the good fortune to take two four yr courses during my time at Queen's with Dr Sokolsky and would definitely reccomend approaching him. Always found him to be very helpful. Never had the pleasure of meeting Dr Pentland though unfortunately so I'll refrain from posting on that. 

Just my two cents...


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## DavidWheatcroft

Can you pursue graduate studies in the ROTP program? Fully subsidized and still only serve the same amount of time?


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## George Wallace

NO.

As an inquisitive Tenth Grader, who no doubt is a little Tech Savy, perhaps you should use those skills to read the topics here first, and then ask your questions.  It will save everyone a lot of time and put an end to numerous Threads being created to ask the same questions over and over again, thus making it harder for others to find the information that they are looking for.


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## Michael OLeary

Actually George, I recently responded to a research request from a young officer who described his situation as follows:



> I am a recently-trained phase IV subaltern, who, for his sins, was sent off to do an MA immediately after training.



Now, there was something about lanes .....


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## DavidWheatcroft

Isn't this forum open for questions, and assistance to those in need? I'm asking this because maybe if I can't do graduate studies I'm going to change my mind about rotp, or maybe a little curious. I tried to find the question before I asked it, and failed. Find the question I asked, and show me. I'm not here for irrelevant affectation, I'm here to sort my future.


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## niceasdrhuxtable

DavidWheatcroft said:
			
		

> Isn't this forum open for questions, and assistance to those in need? I'm asking this because maybe if I can't do graduate studies I'm going to change my mind about rotp, or maybe a little curious. I tried to find the question before I asked it, and failed. Find the question I asked, and show me. I'm not here for irrelevant affectation, I'm here to sort my future.



Ah, I see you're a recent graduate from the Helena Guergis Institute of Tact and Civility


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## Michael OLeary

David, it is possible, but very rare to go into graduate studies after ROTP and before serving your initial period of obligatory service. Even if you do, it will likely add to, not overlap, your obligatory service.


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## George Wallace

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Actually George, I recently responded to a research request from a young officer who described his situation as follows:
> 
> Now, there was something about lanes .....



Unless ROTP has been changed in the last few months, there is NO Graduate Studies program offered under ROTP.  There are Graduate Studies offered at RMC, but not for ROTP candidates.   Post Graduate Degree/Doctorate are under different programs.  

As for getting a Post Graduate Degree/Doctorate under the same subsidy as given for ROTP, all lumped together, and owing only the VIE of the ROTP education, then that is also not going to happen.

Someone from the CFRG can clarify those facts.


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## Michael OLeary

Yes George, it's not under the "ROTP" itself, but I saw through that semantic nuance and realized he was asking about the possibility of going on to Graduate Studies directly after graduation.  Whether or not it remains under the ROTP program really isn't the point.


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## macknightcr

I too have been wondering about this topic.  I understand that if I were to have the CF pay for Graduate school that I would be adding to my term of service, and the juming into more school right after graduation is not what I want.   I want to take my first post, get settled in and eventually get a Masters Degree without taking time off from work.  Is it possible to take night courses subsidized while still working with my unit?


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## Fishbone Jones

I have no horse in this race, but people better check their attitudes post haste.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## gcclarke

The primary reference which governs post-graduate studies in the CF is CFAO 9-33 -- POST-GRADUATE TRAINING PROGRAMS REGULAR FORCE AND PRIMARY RESERVE. It outlines 4 separate programs. The first, the General Program is the one most used. 

Various organizations within the CF have identified a requirement to have someone working for them with a specific post-graduate qualification, and are willing to foot the bill. The members gets education subsidized, and then goes to work for the organization that sponsored them for a specific period of time, typically 2 years. This incurs obligatory service. As well, the program is typically only open for a specific degree at a specific institution, although some do mention the degree can be taken at "Any Canadian University".
The eligibility requirements are as follows: 


> 9. To be considered for selection for PGT, an officer will normally:
> a. by 1 Sep of the year in which the PG training is to commence, have completed three years commissioned service;
> b. have sufficient time remaining in his present period of service, after graduation, to complete the obligatory service resulting from participation in a PG programme, as prescribed in CFAO 15-7;
> c. meet the appropriate educational prerequisites; and
> d. meet such other conditions as the CDS may prescribe.



The second program outlined is the "Training on Scholarship Programme", and is the only program where one can typically proceed on subsidized post-graduate education immediately after finishing an undergraduate degree via ROTP or UTPNCM. It is a tough one to get authorization for, and is only for personnel who have won a "prestigious scholarship." Specifically mentioned in the CFAO is that "Preference will be given to those scholarships that are universally recognized, such as the Rhodes scholarship." As you can imagine, this program is bloody rare. This article mentions that RMC has only had a total of 12 Rhodes scholars ever. The most recent, in 2008, would not have been eligible for this program anyways, as he was at RMC via the Reserve Entry Training Plan vice ROTP. The one previous to that was in 1987. I'm sure there's a few scattered cases of this program being used for prestigious scholarships that aren't at Oxford, but still, it's a rare event. 

The third program outlined is "Training Under The DND Military and Strategic Studies Programme", and I believe it is for those senior (or soon to be) officers being sent to staff college. You need at least 10 years commissioned service to be eligible. 

The fourth is "Post-Graduate Training - Primary Reserve", which allows for reserve officers to receive post-gradate training at RMC in Military History, War Studies, or Engineering and Science. This is paid for by their reserve unit. 

These are the options for full-time post-graduate education. As well, there is the option of doing part-time education on top of your full-time job, via the "Advanced Degree - Part-Time Programme for Regular force Officers" program, outlined in CF Military Personnel Instructions 18/04. For this one you must be Reg Force, Trade Qualified, not on LWOP, not already have a Master's degree or higher, and be applying for a degree which "specified military, occupational or organizational requirement". Approval must come from your L1 or a designated authority no lower than BGen/Cmdre.

Oh yes. Also, each of these will incur additional obligatory service. Any full-time post grad is at the same rate as ROTP. Any part-time post grad incurs 1 additional month of obligatory service per $2,000 subsidized.


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## macknightcr

I cannot open any of those links, but that information was exactly what I was looking for.  

Thank you.


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## Mantlerom

Hello all,
I have an under graduate degree in Economics, a Juris Doctor (JD, law degree), and an LLM (Masters of Law). I am interesting in pursuing more schooling. There are programs at RMC that I am interested in and I have a great desire to serve. I have been looking for answers to the following:
1) If I go to RMC for post-grad, will I also be able to go through officer training?
2) Has anyone else done PG work with RMC? I'd enjoy hearing about your experience there.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.
PTD


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## Mantlerom

Also if this discussion has come up already, please feel free to direct me to the right area-forum.


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## Michael OLeary

You mean like this?

site:army.ca rmc post-grad

You're welcome,

Staff, B.Google


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## Mantlerom

This seems to be the answer I was looking for, so if you find yourself here check out the following.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/93569.0


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## Phoebe

Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).

Thanks in advance.

-Phoebe


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## ModlrMike

I would think this outcome highly unlikely. The goal of RMC is to produce young officers capable of becoming "leaders of men (and women)", not professional students. Once working in your occupation, your branch may have a post grad programme you can apply to.


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## SeaKingTacco

Phoebe said:
			
		

> Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?
> 
> I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> -Phoebe



I've seen this exact thing happen, however, it is not the normal course of things.  Normally, you would be expected to go into your career field for a few years and contribute to the CF before coming back for a Masters.  But, I reiterate, it does seem to happen the other way, too.


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## Melbatoast

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I've seen this exact thing happen, however, it is not the normal course of things.  Normally, you would be expected to go into your career field for a few years and contribute to the CF before coming back for a Masters.  But, I reiterate, it does seem to happen the other way, too.



I've seen it too, very recently.  I don't know the circumstances, but this individual went from UTPNCM undergrad to some other program post-grad immediately, without being employed (or presumably qualified) in occupation.  The particular post graduate program this person went into seems extremely relevant to the occupation, which is probably how it went down, plus the occupation is kind of clogged up (MARS).

Super sweet deal in my opinion, except for the front end career lag.


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## Journeyman

The one person I'm familiar with was ROTP MARS, who went immediately from his BA in Politics to the MA in International Relations at the Norman Patterson School (Carleton), without classification training. During his MA he transferred over to Int, did his qualification training, then served minimal obligatory time before releasing. He subsequently did a law degree and now makes a shitload of money in Virginia Beach.

Does it happen? Yes. Is it rare? Yes. Does the CF benefit?  :dunno:


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## Rheostatic

I read an article about a couple of guys who qualified as Rhodes scholars during their undergrad at RMC and proceded directly to masters programs.


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## Blackadder1916

Phoebe said:
			
		

> Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? *And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?*
> 
> I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).



I'm sure it would be a popular route to a graduate degree, but it is not a common occurrence.  Can it happen? Yes, but don't plan on it.  DAOD 5049-1 Obligatory Service contains the following


> Simultaneous Periods of Obligatory Service
> 
> *Prior to the completion of a period of obligatory service, members are not normally permitted to incur more obligatory service.* The Director General Military Careers (DGMC) must approve any exceptions. In those cases, the new period of obligatory service will be added to the unexpired portion of the previous period of obligatory service. The two periods will be served consecutively and in the order in which they are incurred.
> 
> Members cannot serve a period of obligatory service while receiving education or training that will incur additional obligatory service. The original period of obligatory service will be extended by the period of subsidized education or training.



There are, however, exceptions to almost every rule.  During my career I knew a few officers who were able to immediately go from undergrad to graduate studies, however it seemed that they (if from RMC) usually went to a different institution - perhaps it was because they were "invited" and received (non CF) financial incentives (scholarships) to pursue that higher programme.  CFAO 9-33 (no longer available on the internet) was the regulation governing post-graduate education subsidization.  Annex B of that order deals with the scenario you describe and used to begin with; (_my version is from an old OLTRS disk_)


> CFAO 9-33
> ANNEX B --TRAINING ON SCHOLARSHIPS PROGRAMME
> 
> PURPOSE
> 
> 1.   This annex prescribes the policy and procedures governing the
> acceptance of post-graduate (PG) scholarships by officers of the Regular
> Force following graduation from baccalaureate level university courses.
> 
> ELIGIBILITY
> 
> 2.   For the purpose of this annex, eligibility extends to officers of the
> Regular Force who are in their final year of baccalaureate study attending
> a Canadian Military College or university under:
> 
> a.   the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) -CFAO 9-12;
> 
> b.   the University Training Plan -Non-commissioned members (UTPM) -
> CFAO 9-13;
> 
> c.   the University Training Plan -Officers (UTPO) -CFAO 9-40; or
> 
> d.   special authority while on leave without pay (LWOP).
> 
> 3.   Receipt of a PG scholarship by an officer of the Regular Force does
> not automatically imply that the officer will be permitted by NDHQ to
> proceed on such training.
> 
> 4.   Eligibility to proceed on scholarship training will take into account:
> 
> a.   the officer's academic and military records;
> 
> b.   the military applicability of the PG course; and
> 
> c.   the prestige associated with the scholarship.
> 
> 5.   Preference will be given to those scholarships that are universally
> recognized, such as the Rhodes scholarship.  As a further guide,
> scholarships that will be considered by NDHQ will normally be those in the
> high dollar value range that do not require the candidate to expend more
> than six hours of work a week for the university concerned.  Scholarships
> usually considered as teaching or research assistant-ships offered by
> universities are, for purposes of the PG programme, not considered to be
> prestigious and therefore are excluded.
> 
> ANNUAL QUOTA
> 
> 6.   No specific quotas are established for PG scholarship training.
> Attendance will be determined annually by NDHQ, based on the availability
> of officers and current military requirements.


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## SentryMAn

Pheobe;
The other side of this is why do a Under grad and then grad at the same university in the same discipline?  You will be essentially learning the same information from the same professors with the same sight on the topics.


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## jwtg

As has been stated many times, there are opportunities but they are few and limited to the most competitive students.  They are also subject to budgets, and to the discretion of your career manager.

There's been a few presentations (I haven't listened closely because at this point I'm mostly interested in simply completing my current undergraduate studies at RMC) where people have mentioned something called 'PGonscol' or something like that.  I believe it stands for post-graduate studies on scholarship, and as I understand it, you secure a place in a graduate studies program, secure scholarship funding, and hope your branch says that you can go.

So, the simplest answer is yes, it is possible.  There are opportunities you can inquire about and apply for, but they are far from guaranteed.  Make sure you're satisfied with the idea of finishing your undergrad and then training/working in your trade, because that is far and away the most common route through RMC.
Good luck!


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## Phoebe

Thanks for the comments everyone. If I don't end up being considered a competitive student for graduate studies, then I'll likely pursue it after my commitment to the forces. Though, that is still very long away and I may enjoy my trade so much I may believe a post grad degree may be unnecessary. 

Again, thanks! everyone! 

-Phoebe


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## Journeyman

Quite a few officers continue on with grad studies after the initial recruiting/training dust settles and they've learned the gist of their job. 

If you're not posted to a major city, there are numerous distance learning options available. There's also a graduate degree option tied to the Command and Staff College programme, although it's not in Nuclear Science.


Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for.


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## Phoebe

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for.



If you're trying to make the statement that I am just trying to get free schooling dear sir, you're sadly mistaken. I'm simply trying to pursue my major interests in life, both those related to the defence of this nation and to the advancement of my knowledge related to science. 

Let me also add, If I'm not found worthy to attend R.M.C. I plan to reapply as an N.C.O. for Infantry. 

-Phoebe


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## McG

Phoebe said:
			
		

> Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies?


Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.

... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.


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## MJP

MCG said:
			
		

> Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.
> 
> ... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.



Civi U ROTP (and UTPNCMs) are accepted as well.  I knew one that got accepted this year but turned it down for some good reasons.


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## Trick

Hi all, 

This is probably a better question for a recruiter, but I don't have much time during the work day to sit on hold with the NB office which is busy these days and besides, I imagine I'm not the only person in this situation.

I'd like to go to RMC to study Military Science. The potential problem though is I'm 24 and already have an undergraduate degree in Science. Will this preclude me from doing ROTP at RMC as technically I already qualify for most officer trades (especially as Military Science isn't required for any trades as far as I know).

Thanks,


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## jeffb

Just a thought, have you considered doing a Masters in Military Studies instead of a second degree? Spending four years to essentially get the same level of academic standing MAY not help you all that much if you are doing it for career purposes.


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## Trick

I have, but honestly I'm not sure how well I could do in a Masters setting considering my undergraduate training is in science. While I hate the stereotype that scientists/engineers can't write, it is also true that I probably can't write a very good historical essay. Though if anyone has any input on that I'd also be interested. That said, the only career I'm interested in with regards to Military Science would be being an officer in the CF. If I was to stay in the civilian world I'd probably just stay in medical research. While I wouldn't mind doing a Masters in Military Science as a civilian and then applying as a DEO, I'm not sure I can really afford another 2ish years of being a student again- especially as there's not guarantee I'd be offered a position.

From what I've read in the past you can't do ROTP if you already have a valid degree for that trade. I just wanted to confirm that. I was also wondering what would happen if I wanted to be an Engineering Officer for example- would it be possible to do ROTP then as I *don't* have an engineering degree?


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## matthew1786

Trick said:
			
		

> From what I've read in the past you can't do ROTP if you already have a valid degree for that trade. I just wanted to confirm that. I was also wondering what would happen if I wanted to be an Engineering Officer for example- would it be possible to do ROTP then as I *don't* have an engineering degree?



1. I can't confirm that but it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
2. I think that depends on what your major is for your Bsc. Some, albeit very few, are acceptable (but not preferable) degrees for the EngO trade.


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## siuto

Hi,

I have a similiar question. I have MA and BA degree in Linguistics. I passed CFAT for all officers however right now I only have one choice to choose from because of the availbility and I can't pass level 3 security at this point.
So I am consider to take a post baccalaureate program in criminology or take another degree like politic science so that I will be qualified for more other trades.
Because I already got the basic credits (ie electives) toward a degree, if I take another degree I can finish it in 2 years instead of 4 years. After finishing the first master I really dont want to go through it again and would like to learn the basics from other major. So my question will be: Do they let you to take a second degree in this way?
Thanks.


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## gcclarke

My understanding is that you will only be subsidized for a degree at RMC (or at a Civvie U via ROTP) if you do not hold a degree that fulfills the requirements for the trade for which you have been selected. Thus someone with a Nursing degree who wants to be an Engineering Officer would be able to get an engineering degree at RMC, someone with an engineering degree who wants to be a Nursing Officer would be able to get a nursing degree at a civvie U (since RMC doesn't do nursing degrees), but to get in under the ROTP you would need to be applying for a trade which has actual requirements that you don't meet. 

There's a matrix out there that lists various types of degrees and various trades, annotating whether or not (for ROTP) they are "preferred" "fully acceptable" "acceptable" or "not subsidized". If you already have a degree, in order to be eligible for ROTP entry into a particular trade, the degree you already have would have to be, by my understanding, listed as "not subsidized". Unfortunately, the copy of the table that I've been able to find online was scanned in with absolutely terrible quality, so it's kinda hard to read. I might be able to help you figure out if your degree would be considered acceptable for the trade you want if you let me know which trade it is you're looking for, or your recruiting centre should have an actually legible copy of the table (in Annex A of CFAO 9-12 Regular Officer Training Plan)

That having been said, for siuto, I think you may be out of luck with the plan to take a 2nd criminology degree, as as far as I can tell, there are no trades which consider a criminology degree to be acceptable that don't consider a "languages" degree to be acceptable. With a linguistics degree (let alone the MA) you're alredy considered better suited academically for every trade that would accept a criminology degree other than the security grouping (I think Military Police Officer might be the only trade in this branch), which ranks criminology as a "preferred" degree and languages as a "fully acceptable" degree. 

For Trick, when you said that if you stick on civvie street that you'd probably continue on in medical research. Is it safe to say that your BSc is in biology / biochemistry? If so, that degree would not be acceptable for EngO (or CELE, EME, MSEO, NCSEO, AERE), and you should remain eligible for entry under ROTP to those trades.


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## Wolseleydog

Whether or not you should got to RMC is one thing.

What you should understand is that if you go to RMC (as other than a UTPNCM, which I gather is not an issue), then there is only one way in -- as a recruit, then four year Officer Cadet.  It's not a "second degree", its a four year apprenticeship.

If you are mid-twenties, already have a university degree, and are interested in a military career, then perhaps you should look into DEO.  

If you qualify for DEO.... then why would you go to RMC?  
If you don't qualify for DEO... then why would you qualify for RMC?

Lastly, the questions one should always ask aren't about RMC -- they are about military service, and what you think about that...


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## Melanie Jane

Ok so this question is kinda hard to word so bare with me lol

This is my plan:
I am ncm and am looking to start my undergrad through distance education that I am going to pay myself. After my undergrad I want to get my masters and have the military pay for it because I can't work full time and ill have to attend a university. 
After my university I want to get my officer.
Although its a few years down the road, was told that I can apply for officer after 2 years from ncm. Is this true?
I just don't want to do 10 years-ish as ncm and then start at the bottom when I go officer. I will but it would be much better if can start officer sooner

Can anyone help? 
Its kind of confusing and if you don't understand let me know ha ha


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## Zoomie

Why would the CF pay for your Masters?

Are you RegF?


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## dapaterson

I agree that the question is confusing - that is, the way you wrote it is confusing.

If I understand:

* You're planning to complete an undergrad degree while serving as an NCM.

If that is the case, talk to the Base Personnel Selection Officer (BPSO) once you're posted to a base - there are CF resources to support you in that.

* Once you have some military experience and your undergrad degree, you'd like to become an officer.

If that is the case, there are several routes that are possible.  They depend on a number of things, and again, your BPSO can advise you.  For example, certain commissioning plans do not provide further training or development or possibility of promotion; they are to fill short-term gaps - those are aimed at senior CWOs and MWOs without many more years to serve.  Other plans have other limitations, and they do change over time.  BPSOs should have up to date information about your options.

* Once you are an officer, you'd like to do a master's degree

There are a limited number of programs, all competitive, where you can seek to do a master's degree fully paid by the CF.  You will have obligatory service to complete following your studies, and you will have limited selection in the programs you can take,. as those programs are intended to fill a military requirement, not necessarily meet whatever personal aspirations you may have.  For example, to my knowledge there are no positions for someone to do a masters in English Literature.  Again, the BPSO knows the programs and can assist and advise.

* Finally, you're concerned about starting at the bottom again if commissioned as an officer.

There is no way around this.  Depending on commissioning plan, which in turn may depend on your NCM rank if you become an officer, the highest rank you could possibly begin at would be Major.  To be commissioned as a 2Lt with simultaneous promotion to Major, you would have to be a CWO who had filled one of the most senior appointments in the Canadian Forces - for example, Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer, or Chief Warrant Officer of the RCAF.  As a rule of thumb, though, if you are commissioned under a plan that will see you have a future with progression, you'd probably be commissioned as a 2Lt, possibly with simultaneous promotion to Lt.  From there you would work through the system like every other new officer.  Depending on your NCM and officer occupations you may receive some credit for training and experience or not; you would go through the training system and then progress like every other officer in your occupation.


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## Occam

You only have a couple of options, once you're already in - and judging by your previous posts, you start BMQ next month, so you're already in.

1.  Apply for UTPNCM when you're eligible, and if accepted, go to RMC or civvy U for a Bachelor's.  If you're lucky and smart, I have heard of UTPs rarely being offered to do their Masters immediately after undergrad.  I know all of two people in 26 years in who got offered this, so I suspect it's not thrown out very often.  Do a search of this site for entrance requirements for UTPNCM.  You'll have to do more than two years...I seem to recall it's closer to four.  The BPSO has information on all of this.

2.  Do your Bachelor's part time under the Reg F Education Reimbursement program, funded 100% by the CF.  Then try to get your ILP approved for a Masters...which is possible according to the MIL PERS Instruction, but I'll bet it's pretty damned competitive.  Again, see the BPSO.

No matter how you slice it, you have a tough road ahead of you.  If you had degrees in mind, why didn't you pursue ROTP?

P.S.  *dapaterson* spelled it out quite nicely.  See the BPSO...once you finish BMQ, trades training, and get posted to your first operational unit, that is...


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Army Gal said:
			
		

> so bare with me lol



I'm sorry,...everything else faded away after this.........


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## Occam

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm sorry,...everything else faded away after this.........



Maintaining focus is very.....SQUIRREL!!!!!!   ;D


----------



## Journeyman

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm sorry,...everything else faded away after this.........



I managed to hang on until:


			
				Army Gal said:
			
		

> After my university I want to get my officer.


Lucky officer.....or not  :dunno:


----------



## Wookilar

Having been down the road you are looking at, it takes time.

You can start university on your own any bloody time you want. However, I really do not see why you would want to pay for it yourself? There are criteria to it of course, but once you get to your first unit, go see your BPSO and find out what they are to get reimbursed for any courses you want to do that lead to your initial degree. There are no strings attached to an ncm getting their first degree paid for and no real requirement to commission after that (as long as you do it part time over X number of years). I _believe_ that you need to be QL5 before you can be reimbursed for any courses, but as mentioned above, talk to the BPSO. If you want to pay for it yourself before then, go for it.

As for post-grad, that is a bit of a different kettle of fish. There is no way for an ncm to get the CF to pay for your Masters unless you compete for one of the commissioning programs (Special Commissioning would be the one you would be looking at) and are accepted into an officer trade that requires a Masters level degree. Social Worker is the only one that comes to mind, but the various medical types and maybe lawyer may as well.

All this is prefaced to say, good luck with completing your degree part time. It took me 5 years of part-time study to complete 1st year uni. That's 5 years in a field unit, with all the things that go along with it. If you are in any kind of operational unit, you will be many years to complete a Bachelors. Can it be done? Absolutely, ncm's finish degrees all the time. For most, they are finishing what they have already started. Starting from scratch will not be easy, fast or cheap.


----------



## dapaterson

Further to Wookliar's post: Many NCMs have higher education.  I had a wonderful chat once with a Reg F Cpl who was about to defend his doctoral thesis; in the Reserves, I know of a Cpl who once took the time to counsel a Reg F Colonel on choices in Masters programs, as he'd just completed one.

One important point to remember, though, is not to confuse academic knowledge with real-world skills.  The real world does not always align nicely with academic theory...


----------



## antigone33

I was looking at doing the same thing a year ago however I don't have the marks to get a masters and I have a BA from U of A already. I wanted to do another BA in military science.  However that being said from the research on RMC- I can't get another BA. They will not grant you a degree with the same title despite a different focus completely. (I don't remember where I read that- it might have been the course calendar or website.)  

If possible, I would look at doing a masters over another undergrad degree. A classmate of mine learned that the program we were in was also ofter as a master program in the USA. (our teacher was one of the advisors for it.) She said she would have done it as a masters over another undergrad degree if she had known. Perhaps if possible speak with an advisor for RMC. 

If you are concerned about your writing skills for an MA, see if you can get your writing and reading skills evaluated. I suggest reading because I actually found out my last year of university that some of my problems in writing were stemming from some poor reading skills that I had.  This will also tell you what sort of classes to take to improve your writing skills or what sort of support you need to look for or it might tell you that your skills are awesome. It might be as simple as setting your computer's grammar check to scholar rather then basic and having a classmate read over your papers.


----------



## jeffb

I am doing a MA in Military Studies with AMU and I only have a BA. The first course you take is a course on research methods which will help you a lot with your writing.


----------



## cnobbs84

This thread has helped me a fair bit so thank you all who posted. I currently have my BBA but going to BMQ for Sup Tech and would like to down the road become a Logistics Officer. So thanks to those who have posted.


----------



## Bobert

I was recently looking into this program, apparently it is now an MPA. The grad studies at RMC seem to be affected by the recent cuts, though can anyone confirm this? Does anyone know how many applicants typically apply for these MA programs at RMC? If civilians have much of a chance of being accepted in them? Does anyone know why it is a two year rather than a one year program, because similar programs at Queens or Ryerson can be completed in twelve months. I know at civilian universities the field of Public Administration is competitive, but many of the masters programs are theoretical rather than practical as this program seems to be.


----------



## breezie

It's called the Post-Graduate on Scholarship (PG on Schol) program, and it's only available to ROTP cadets (civi U or RMC). You apply early in your fourth year, and your standing is based on your grades in second (must be 75% average) and third (must be 80% average) years, plus your military ranking, your athletic score (if you pass your expres test you get full marks I believe), and your bilingualism profile. All these scores are made into one overall score, and you are ranked. The top 6 cadets will be offered their choice of studies (in Canada unless you win a prestigious external scholarship like the Rhodes), and the next 6 in the ranking will be told what they can study (based on their trades). Your trade has to approve of you doing your masters, some had to drop off the list later because they were told they were needed in their trade now rather than 2 years down the track. There were about 30 applications (from RMC and civi U) the year I applied (and got in the top 6). Even if you're ranked below the top 12 (there's only 12 spots a year), you may actually end up getting offered a spot because others turn it down for various reasons. If you go to RMC for your postgrad, you'll get an automatic DRDC scholarship. If you go to another university, you'll either need a "prestigious" scholarship from a list you'll be given, or any scholarship that's $10,000 or more per year of study is considered prestigious. It's not impossible to get approved for PG on schol, but most of the people who were approved had their grades in the very high 80s or 90s, so if you're not an academic superstar, it's unlikely you'll get one. Grad school is insanely hard (even compared to RMC life), so you need those high grades to be able to survive academically. In my program (at the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs), you can't have any grades below a B or you fail out of the program. 

Hope that helps!


----------



## breezie

Oh, and regarding your contract, as the grad studies obviously adds time to your obligatory service, you'll be given the choice of signing for a 5 year or a 20 year contract. At least that's what everyone who got it my year was given - all but one signed the 5 year contract.


----------



## breezie

As far as I'm aware, civilians have just as much chance as do military students of getting accepted into grad studies at RMC. Also, it is likely that there isn't the opportunity to do your masters in one year (depending on the dept, I think it is for MBA) because there are limited profs available for the summer. Military students would usually not be able to do summer classes as they could be away doing their trade phase training, so that might be why some programs don't offer enough summer courses to be able to complete your masters in one full year rather than 2 years of two semesters, with a summer "off" in between each year. And having just completed my first "year" of grad studies, I would never want to compress that into one full year. For a full courseload, that would be two semesters of 3 courses and one of 4 courses (for my program anyway). 3 courses just about killed me, so much reading and writing, so 4 would be almost unmanageable without losing my mind. So if you have the choice and the funding, do it over 2 years, you can focus better on your work because it's a little more spread out, and thus you'll get more out of it rather than just plowing through huge amounts of work as quick as possible just to get it done.


----------



## dave.jones3

Hey All, 

So while I was able to find some information on undergraduates at RMC, I couldn't find much in the way of specific commentary on graduate studies there. I'm currently finishing my third year of University and intend to pursue grad studies in the general 'security' field, be it an MA in I.R. or something more specific like the War Studies MA. I was hoping to get someone with some direct insight into this program to comment on it, and perhaps discuss how graduate education differs from undergraduate education at RMC, if at all.

Thanks In Advance!


----------



## Conz

Good question! I would also like to see more information on this topic.


----------



## macknightcr

I am looking to apply to a Physical Therapy program across Canada.  Right now I am a student at RMC and have heard a rumour around the campus.  Can anyone confirm if a member of the CF can apply to Universities as a resident of any Province?  For example, if I wanted to apply to UBC can I apply as a resident of BC, while simultaneously applying to UAlberta as an Alberta resident?  

Another question is what is the process of going right into a graduate program after completing an ROTP scholarship?  Would I have to add time to my contract, pay for school or be granted an additional scholarship, or does this vary year to year?

Thank you for any information.


----------



## speedbird

I'm rarely on here so I never seem to reply to these in time.

I have nothing but amazing things to say about the MA War Studies.
I was part of a great year (2006) with a great group of academics.  That said, the experience varies widely depending on the folks in your year (if you are doing class work in Kingston).
As then Principal John Scott Cowan said on my first day, you get what you put into it.  I sought out TAships at Queen's, impressed my classmates and my past two jobs (Faculty at RMC/CDA HQ and military procurement policy at PWGSC) were directly caused by people I met in the program.  Like I said, we had a great year and there was a perfect mix of senior public servants, military members (usually Maj/LCdr) and young folks out of their undergrad.

That said, there are little to no jobs post MA in "international security" in the next five years or so until a major demographic shift happens.  And the situation is not much brighter for teaching jobs should you choose to pursue a PhD (which the MA also sets you up well for). One note though, big military history focus with the faculty that are there right now, though Jane Boulden is a prominent scholar in IR.
To be honest, the best place to work in the field of international security would be to join the CF, do your thing for a while in courses and trades and end up a Staff Officer providing strategic advice at SJS or something.  A long term plan, but I can name dozens of MAs from schools across Canada that are wishing they could get into the field.


----------



## macknightcr

This thread seems to be one people want to look at, but no one has any answers for....which is pretty disappointing.  I will try another question that may get some feedback.  Does any one know if it is possible to take an "academic leave of absence" in order to complete a Masters Degree?  This would imply that I would pay for school myself, and then return to service to complete my contract.


----------



## jwtg

Look into the 'PG On Schol' program. A few people out of RMC get into it every year. They get commissioned and then do their Masters .


----------



## Alex.Landry

My father did his Master's while serving.

He was given a year to do so and I remember him being at home all the time and just having to report in to work like once a week.

I hope this helps a little bit! It seems plausible!


----------



## macknightcr

Thank you.  I will look in to that program.


----------



## Alex.Landry

Good luck on Cmdt's Inspection!


----------



## Cui

Thank you speedbird for such a detailed reply. I was looking into graduate programs as well since I will be entering my third year at Waterloo. 

Though I was wondering if you know anything about the Masters of Public Administration program at RMC. 

I am looking into the MPA and the MA in War Studies program at RMC, so any firsthand experiences is greatly appreciated. 

Thanks


----------



## PAdm

I completed the MA in Defence Management and Policy at RMC (now called the MPA). I did all distance and thought the program was amazing (notwithstanding the pain of doing it on my own time part time). I was very pleasd with the program, profs, and course mates. When I completed this diverse and very interesting program, I felt that it should be called an MPA and am not surprised that it has been renamed.

There are fundamental core courses plus enough electives to choose from to keep you interested. It is also the degree offender to the national Securities Course at CFC Toronto so what is good for baby generals is good for you. 

In my opinion war studies is good for general interest or a true history buff. It will not get you a job per se. MPA is known and ack as a bonified field of studies. As a general statement, I would do the MPA to enhance both your knowledge to better function in the CF and your resume.  :2c:


----------



## Cui

PAdm said:
			
		

> I completed the MA in Defence Management and Policy at RMC (now called the MPA). I did all distance and thought the program was amazing (notwithstanding the pain of doing it on my own time part time). I was very pleasd with the program, profs, and course mates. When I completed this diverse and very interesting program, I felt that it should be called an MPA and am not surprised that it has been renamed.
> 
> There are fundamental core courses plus enough electives to choose from to keep you interested. It is also the degree offender to the national Securities Course at CFC Toronto so what is good for baby generals is good for you.
> 
> In my opinion war studies is good for general interest or a true history buff. It will not get you a job per se. MPA is known and ack as a bonified field of studies. As a general statement, I would do the MPA to enhance both your knowledge to better function in the CF and your resume.  :2c:



Thanks, I'll keep that in mind


----------



## daftandbarmy

I would suggest that if you are smart enough to do an MBA (unlike me), do it. Avoid the other 'Ms in Something Odd' at all costs, or you will be pigeon holed into looking for jobs in the public service or non-profit sector for the rest of your life. 

The MBA is recognized and respected around the world, in  all workplaces including those in the public sector, whereas other nouveau 'M' quals are not. 

Just sayin' 'cause I, and a lot of my clients, turn down lots of non-MBAs all the time. :nod:


----------



## dimsum

Slightly off-topic, but building on what Daft said:

I understand the "new" Aerospace Systems Course now can include an optional MPA component.  Most everyone understands what an MBA is and what you can do with it, but what (generally) does one do with an MPA?  

I'm interested in ASC and the MPA portion anyway, just wanted to know if there's anything beneficial "on the outside" by doing it.


----------



## Cui

From what I understand, MBA is more about running a business. You learn things like management, organizational behaviour, economics, human resources management, accounting, etc. 

An MPA is more about public policy, geared more towards somebody who wants a job in the public sector. You might cover some of the same topics, but it just has a different focus. 

I think that when applied to the context of the CF, MPA would focus on what direction the CF will be going, and MBA would be more "how will the CF get there". 

While I understand that MBA does include planning and the MPA does include implementation, that is the way I see if so far. Please feel free to correct me if I'm way off base on this.


----------



## PAdm

Interesting thread. It clearly underlines that there are a variety of masters programs out there. The question becomes to what end do you wish to use your masters??  Me?  I always wanted a masters, in an area that interested me, and from RMC. So the MA (DMP) from RMC was perfect. I have no desires for a career post CF.  But everyone is different. Suggest you reflect, look at options and continue to ask for opinions just like you are doing now.


----------



## dapaterson

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I would suggest that if you are smart enough to do an MBA (unlike me), do it. Avoid the other 'Ms in Something Odd' at all costs, or you will be pigeon holed into looking for jobs in the public service or non-profit sector for the rest of your life.
> 
> The MBA is recognized and respected around the world, in  all workplaces including those in the public sector, whereas other nouveau 'M' quals are not.
> 
> Just sayin' 'cause I, and a lot of my clients, turn down lots of non-MBAs all the time. :nod:



Government needs fewer MBAs.

You have to understand the business - and MBAs do not learn to understand government or its processes.  So you end up with "expert" advice that is unusable because there was no effort made to understand the environment in which the solution must operate.

Are there skills learned in an MBA that are transferable to the public sector?  Yes.  But an MPA, overall, is a better program for public sector work.

(RMC has an MBA only because the Log Branch want to give their people credentials for retirement - the DND/CF requirement is for an MPA.)


----------



## 54/102 CEF

If you look at any list of top guys and gals running big business - probably half never went to higher education and got started making their way to the top out of highschool

Of the remainder - they come from as many fields of study as you care to imagine

Many people run down the MA in War Studies as some namby pamby field of snoring in the library - I call it a destabilse and destroy a country course

As the War in War Studies says - War comes from many directions and leads off in many directions - imagine walking across a parade square covered in black powder fuses - they are the myriad causes of war - now some fool is throwing flaming arrows into the middle and a fuze goes off - but you chase the fuze in your clicker heel infantry boots and you set off more fuses - pretty soon thats quite a lot of smoke and scary endings coming up as you the diplomat try and avoid any commitment --- at the end of the course you realise what a thankless job the Infantry has as DND leadership is at the beck and call of witless politicians

So to conclude - I am not an Engineer - but when War Studies comes to life in the field - we employ a lot of engineers and ticket punching MPAs and the greatest infrastructure builders in their own minds

Just sayin'

Signed

War Studies 2007 - ask the DS for a copy of the Michael Roy Team attack on the Toronto Joint Health and Police HQ final project 

Still interested? MA in War Studies won't disappoint and it will enhance your CV.


----------



## Cui

Well, I would like to make a career out of the Canadian Forces. I was in cadets when I was in high school and like the culture, and the more I learned about the CF, the more it appealed to me. 

Right now the best case scenario for me would be to be able to join the CF as an officer after I get my master's degree and serve until I retire. However, things might not always work out, so I would like to study something that is transferable to the civilian side of things as well. Therefore, I'm leaning more towards the MPA side of things right now. As well I've always been interested in a variety of topics in the social sciences, and the interdisciplinary nature of the MPA suits that. 

In addition, attending RMC has been a dream of mine since I was 13. Unfortunately I was unable to get into ROTP program for my undergrad. I think I can still realize that dream by doing my master's degree there. 

With 2 years left on my undergraduate, I still have some time to think things over. Thank you all for giving such great advice and I certainly will keep them in mind.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Some discussions on the differences FYI:

I don't agree with this one... must have been written by a policy geek in a think tank somewhere  ;D
http://www.publicservicecareers.org/index.asp?pageid=663
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091119201932AAdhQN6

Get both:
http://www.stern.nyu.edu/programs-admissions/dual-degrees/mba-mpa/
http://www.hbs.edu/mba/academic-experience/joint-degree-programs/Pages/harvard-kennedy-school.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHj8kicKr5U


----------



## speedbird

As I say, I'm rarely on here but the difference between an MPA and an MA.
MPA will not cut it if you are planning to further your career in academia, it is applied and will teach you how to write BNs and understand the structures of Gov't, most of which you could learn in a CSPS course called "How Ottawa Works" if you join the department.
I went with the MA because I was planning on doing a PhD, was talked out of it, still managed to get hired as faculty at CDA HQ and am now a public servant with another department.
Just depends on what your goals are. Also if you are a career officer, you will likely get some sort of MPA at some point or another through CFC.

Also, 54/102 CEF it is likely inevitable that we know each other unless you weren't in Kingston.


----------



## Wolseleydog

Just a bit on "a day in the life of" an RMC grad student (as opposed to the utility of the degree):

Full disclosure: I did it back in the mid90s, as a RegF offr.

The OP suggested a desire to go to RMC as a cadet.  Just to be clear -- grad students at RMC are not/not members of the cadet wing, and do not go through any of that sort of thing, although they may interact tangentially with the cadets through activities like sports/clubs/social events.  This is not unlike, I suppose, the relationship between undergrads and grad students at civilian universities generally.

Grad students at RMC fall into three general groups: RegF officers (many of whom are ex-cadets, but many of whom are not), reserve officers, and civilians.  When I was there (War Studies 95-96) there were four of us RegF, and (the following are estimates from memory) about two dozen reserve officers (actually, two were CIL) and perhaps ten civilians.  The RegF officers were all majors/captains, who had managed to convince the system to send us for post grad.  We ranged in age from late twenties to (I would say) mid/late thirties.  The reservists and civilians were all more stereotypical students -- early/mid twenties, straight from civilian university undergrads.

Daily life was similar to grad students everywhere: a low cost apartment somewhere in Kingston (although one of the RegF majors lived in the then PMQs that are now the CDA headquarters bldg).  Several grad seminar classes a week to attend, a grad student lounge to hang out in, working in the library. RegF officers wore uniform to class.  Civilians obviously wore civilian clothes.  Reservists, honestly I can't remember.

Having also been a grad student at a civilian university, I would suggest that overall the grad student experience at RMC is very like civilian university generally, which is very much *NOT* the case with the comparison between the RMC undergrad experience and civilian university.

Just my two cents worth.  (And I have to add, for my penance for grad school I had to go to NDHQ which took me four years to escape...)


----------



## Chelomo

One of my teacher did his MA in War Studies at Kingston, and since I was looking into grad school options in that field, told me that it wasn't what it used to be. What he meant by that, I didn't probe much further to find out, but it's something to be aware of. Of course, he's a research professor, so he might have been talking from a research/post-grad possibilities.

After reading up on the subject however, I am distinctly interested in a MA in War Studies at King's College in London (UK). Apparently they are one of the best grad schools when it comes to that particular topic, and you can do it in one year (Fall, Winter, Summer). The price is pretty steep however, so that's another thing to take into consideration, as the cost of living in the UK is pretty punitive.


----------



## phildabomb

I'm currently a 3rd year Chemical Engineering student going through ROTP, currently in the ACSO trade. 

My question is, what kind of opportunities are there to pursue graduate studies (possibly in aerospace/mechanical engineering) at some point during my career? Would studying in the United States pose any problems?  I understand that a master's or PhD is required to achieve a specific rank, but perhaps it's possible to pursue this sooner than later. 

Thanks for any advice/help!

Phil


----------



## dapaterson

The CAF sponsors a certain number of officers each year for masters and PhDs.  There are specified programs of interest, most of which incur servie immediately after in that field.  You also incur obligatory service for all studies.


----------



## dimsum

PapaJuliet said:
			
		

> I'm currently a 3rd year Chemical Engineering student going through ROTP, currently in the ACSO trade.
> 
> My question is, what kind of opportunities are there to pursue graduate studies (possibly in aerospace/mechanical engineering) at some point during my career? Would studying in the United States pose any problems?  I understand that a master's or PhD is required to achieve a specific rank, but perhaps it's possible to pursue this sooner than later.
> 
> Thanks for any advice/help!
> 
> Phil



As dapaterson says, there are opportunities.  However, most are at Capt/Maj level for ACSOs and depending on the program, last year's courses were mostly in Canadian universities.  There are opportunities in the US though (Embry-Riddle comes to mind) but most of those were for AERE.


----------



## Chelomo

This is something that interests me as well. I will be finishing my undergrad (as a ROTP student) in 2 years and then plan on doing my mandatory service for 5 years. However, I'm very much interested in pursuing my Master's in War Studies at Kings College in the UK. I assume I won't be able to be subsidized for this, but how likely is it that I can get a 1 year sabbatical to complete it and then return to my posting?


----------



## RedcapCrusader

Chelomo said:
			
		

> This is something that interests me as well. I will be finishing my undergrad (as a ROTP student) in 2 years and then plan on doing my mandatory service for 5 years. However, I'm very much interested in pursuing my Master's in War Studies at Kings College in the UK. I assume I won't be able to be subsidized for this, but how likely is it that I can get a 1 year sabbatical to complete it and then return to my posting?



In the Regular Force? Likely never.


----------



## Chelomo

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> In the Regular Force? Likely never.



Interesting, mind expanding? Is there spots but they are highly competitive, or is it simply something that's not done at all? Or perhaps I'll be way too busy?


----------



## Ostrozac

Chelomo said:
			
		

> Interesting, mind expanding? Is there spots but they are highly competitive, or is it simply something that's not done at all? Or perhaps I'll be way too busy?



It's more because of the levels of authority involved. You're talking about requesting one year's Leave Without Pay (LWOP) -- that needs to be approved by Director General Military Careers, with recommendations from both the CO and Officer Commanding a Command.

Assuming a typical Army career path for junior officers that is newly graduated from RMC -- that would be the Commanding Officer of one of the battalions or regiments in a mechanized brigade, and the Commander Canadian Army. Odds are that both of those gentlemen are keen on junior officers spending time with their troops and their units.

Now, once you've done battalion/regiment time and are on a second or third posting, the dynamic changes. While the army commander would now probably be more amenable to sign off, the CO likely still wouldn't be, since he doesn't get a backfill for LWOP. He does get a backfill for personnel that are doing their Master's on duty status, since they are posted into a post-grad position.

I know plenty of CF officers that have done a post-grad on duty status, both inside Canada and at foreign schools. I know none that did it on LWOP.


----------



## dapaterson

There are opportunities at the rank of Maj/LCol to attend foreign staff colleges, and receive a Masters for those studies.


----------



## jeffb

Or you can submit an ILP and do a Masters in your own time. The likelihood of being able to do this in any format other then online is unlikely given the requirements to have a day job and the location of most bases. Also, the funding for ILPs is changing in the new fiscal year to only 50% reimbursement so you'll be on the hook for the other half.


----------



## phildabomb

Dimsum said:
			
		

> As dapaterson says, there are opportunities.  However, most are at Capt/Maj level for ACSOs and depending on the program, last year's courses were mostly in Canadian universities.  There are opportunities in the US though (Embry-Riddle comes to mind) but most of those were for AERE.


Interesting! Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University is actually the one I am looking at!


----------



## dapaterson

CANFORGEN 183/13 provides a list of the sponsored positions open for 2014 starts.  ACSO appears 17 times in the list; there are 7 Any GSO starts as well.

As stated, you can also pursue on your own time, with some CAF support.


----------



## Transporter

PapaJuliet said:
			
		

> I'm currently a 3rd year Chemical Engineering student going through ROTP, currently in the ACSO trade.
> 
> My question is, what kind of opportunities are there to pursue graduate studies (possibly in aerospace/mechanical engineering) at some point during my career? Would studying in the United States pose any problems?  *I understand that a master's or PhD is required to achieve a specific rank*, but perhaps it's possible to pursue this sooner than later.
> 
> Thanks for any advice/help!
> 
> Phil


 As an ACSO I don't believe a master's or PhD are hard requirements to achieve any rank, though they will in all likelihood make you more competitive for promotion.


----------



## dapaterson

Masters and PhDs do add points at the promotion boards.


----------



## dimsum

Nearly forgot:  Aerospace Systems Course has an option for Masters of Public Admin or Masters of (something) Engineering if you add a few courses to the baseline ASC.  Since you already have an Eng background, that's probably something you can look at after your first operational posting.  

ASC seems to always be looking for people so I can't see it being too tough to get on.  Finishing it may be a different story.


----------



## Chelomo

Thanks for all the info guys, this is very helpful. I'll see when I get there, for now I'm definitely focusing on finishing my undergrad, but here's to hoping I can do it full time eventually.


----------



## OS_W00kie

Hi everyone,

I'm an OS in the RCN reserves and I've just about wrapped up my 3rd year of a BA in Political Science. Thus far I have completely paid for my education with no reimbursements from the CF (not even the $2000 a year my recruiter promised me ). 

I'm hoping to apply for the War Studies MA program at RMC. Would I qualify for ROTP or RETP? If not, what are my other options.

Thanks!


----------



## DAA

OS_W00kie said:
			
		

> Hi everyone,
> I'm an OS in the RCN reserves and I've just about wrapped up my 3rd year of a BA in Political Science. Thus far I have completely paid for my education with no reimbursements from the CF (not even the $2000 a year my recruiter promised me ).
> I'm hoping to apply for the War Studies MA program at RMC. Would I qualify for ROTP or RETP? If not, what are my other options.
> Thanks!



Sounds like you didn't quite understand the reimbursement thing.  You have to "apply" for it, in advance or during and it has to be approved ahead of time before reimbursement takes place.

As an "OS" I doubt pursuing an MA would qualify for reimbursement.  If you still have one more year to go for your undergrad, you can try to apply for ROTP/RETP or ask your current Res Unit if RESO is an available option at this time, if you don't want to go Regular Force and prefer to remain in the Reserves.


----------



## dapaterson

ROTP and RETP do not provide MAs.


----------



## phildabomb

Yes thanks everyone. I know this is quite a far look into the future for me, but hopefully others find it useful too.


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## CombatMacguyver

So I'm finishing off my last handful of credits towards obtaining the DMASc diploma and I'm starting to ponder this "advanced standing" that's offered by RMC towards a BMASc.

Has anyone here fired down that range before?  I'm curious as to how the process works / what to expect.

Thanks gents


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## Hound Dog

Hi everyone,

I'm interested in hearing from anyone who has attended RMC for graduate studies. I'm most interested in the Master of Public Administration & Master of Business Administration programs, although I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has attended regardless of program. I'm considering applying for the programs above and would welcome information on your experience as a graduate student, whether you found the courses valuable, overall quality of the program you attended, etc.

Thanks in advance!


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## George Wallace

Although I have not bothered with Graduate Studies after my first Degree, I have taken pity on you and used my Googlefu to merge some topics on "Graduate Studies" for you.


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## Hound Dog

Thank you, I suppose the subject matter is the same, notwithstanding that I am coming from a different approach than those who have posted previously.

To clarify, I am not an ROTP student, and I am not seeking to defer any obligatory service; rather, I am a reservist who has a professional civilian career. If I were to enroll in any further educational programs it would be on my own time and likely on a part-time, distance education basis. Considerations such as obligatory service, unit manning, etc are therefore not relevant considerations.

What I am therefore primarily interested in is the relative quality, or lack thereof, of the MBA/MPA programs themselves. If there are any alumni kicking around, I would appreciate hearing from you here.


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## Sapper Speedo

I am considering the MPA program, anyone here a current student/graduate?


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## mariomike

Sapper Speedo said:
			
		

> I am considering the MPA program, anyone here a current student/graduate?



You may, or may not, find this discussion of interest,

MA In War Studies at RMC  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/109189.0/nowap.html
I was wondering if you know anything about the Masters of Public Administration program at RMC. 
I am looking into the MPA and the MA in War Studies program at RMC, so any firsthand experiences is greatly appreciated.


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## Sapper Speedo

Thank you, I'm just wondering about the reputation of the MPA program for civilian life.


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## CaptCann

Good day all,

When it comes to admissions into Graduate School at RMCC, are officers (reg or pres) given priority over civilians?


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## dapaterson

Yes.  Military colleges, per the QR&Os and their MOOs, exist to educate military personnel.

"The role of the Canadian Military Colleges is to educate and train cadets and commissioned officers for a career of effective service in the Canadian Forces." 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-04/appx-06-01.page#app-02-02


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## CaptCann

Thank you for the prompt response.  Fingers crossed.


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## NSDreamer

Did some searching and didn't find a pointed thread about this so throwing it out there.

I've hit the point in my career where I have to settle down and do a masters degree and my current position is such that I can currently afford the time to do online training without having my work suffer. I've heard about Athabasca, but I'd like to have a place a little recognized when I finally leave the forces for Civi work. Where I'm located DL is the only method of studying at this time, and who knows where I will be posted next year. 

Anyone have any good recommendations? As a Log O I'm pretty much stuck on an MBA or MPA I think, but I will be looking at the SCRIT this afternoon to find out.

Thoughts for good online programs? Other degree suggestions welcome!


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## observor 69

My wife's recommendation ..... MPA through Athabasca. 
And yes she is qualified to make a recommendation.  

Edit: This was a recommendation in general for the MPA. 
Which it appears is not available at Athabasca. Je suis desole.


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## winnipegoo7

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> My wife's recommendation ..... MPA through Athabaska.
> And yes she is qualified to make a recommendation.



I don't think Athabasca U offers a masters of public administration:

http://www.athabascau.ca/programs/program-listings.php?/graduate/master/


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## daftandbarmy

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> Did some searching and didn't find a pointed thread about this so throwing it out there.
> 
> I've hit the point in my career where I have to settle down and do a masters degree and my current position is such that I can currently afford the time to do online training without having my work suffer. I've heard about Athabasca, but I'd like to have a place a little recognized when I finally leave the forces for Civi work. Where I'm located DL is the only method of studying at this time, and who knows where I will be posted next year.
> 
> Anyone have any good recommendations? As a Log O I'm pretty much stuck on an MBA or MPA I think, but I will be looking at the SCRIT this afternoon to find out.
> 
> Thoughts for good online programs? Other degree suggestions welcome!



Don't do an MPA unless you want to pigeon hole yourself into public sector jobs. Public Sector will always hire MBAs, but private sector won't think much of an MPA.

Take a look at the RRU MBA. I've heard good things about the program, and the school is very military friendly for obvious reasons..


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## ballz

Depending on the factors driving the idea of a "masters" ie points on the SCRIT, employment after the CAF, etc, don't discount various other credentials like CPA, CFA, SCM, etc... they are often far better for "distance" learners, offer a specific tangible skill to industry, and depending* on the SCRIT can be worth the same as a Master's.

*I think the Log branch dropped the ball on that one and made professional certifications worth a point less than a Master's while complaining about how they want more CPAs. The Infantry SCRIT, however, treats them both the same. So yeah, it depends on which SCRIT / rank level / etc.


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## dimsum

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Take a look at the RRU MBA. I've heard good things about the program, and the school is very military friendly for obvious reasons..



It looks like the 18-month option has about 5 weeks of residential courses spread out into 2 blocks.  Has anyone experienced issues with getting the time off for those, and if so, does RRU allow for taking those courses at another time?

Also, I'm assuming that the RRU MBA would be covered under ILP for serving Reg F folks?


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## daftandbarmy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> It looks like the 18-month option has about 5 weeks of residential courses spread out into 2 blocks.  Has anyone experienced issues with getting the time off for those, and if so, does RRU allow for taking those courses at another time?
> 
> Also, I'm assuming that the RRU MBA would be covered under ILP for serving Reg F folks?



Give their 'Military Relations' staff a call. They're very helpful and knowledgeable.

And I know at least three people who have gone through Masters level programs there, who are serving Reg F members, and they had no trouble with the program/residential component.

http://www.royalroads.ca/prospective-students/canadian-armed-forces-and-dnd-students


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## MJP

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> Did some searching and didn't find a pointed thread about this so throwing it out there.
> 
> I've hit the point in my career where I have to settle down and do a masters degree and my current position is such that I can currently afford the time to do online training without having my work suffer. I've heard about Athabasca, but I'd like to have a place a little recognized when I finally leave the forces for Civi work. Where I'm located DL is the only method of studying at this time, and who knows where I will be posted next year.
> 
> Anyone have any good recommendations? As a Log O I'm pretty much stuck on an MBA or MPA I think, but I will be looking at the SCRIT this afternoon to find out.
> 
> Thoughts for good online programs? Other degree suggestions welcome!



I just started my MBA through Athabasca and look at a number of options before settling on them.  It came down to ease of access, in-residence requirements and overall timeline.  The application standards for Athabasca are easier than most of the other schools but not by much especially for the pure distance learning Masters programmes.  For in-residence requirements, Athabasca only requires that you do one in-residence crse and it is 5 days and it is delivered in a blended format where you do an online portion for the first 2/3rds of the crse, then 5 days in-residence then finish the crse online.  You can do more but not a requirement.  The thing that pushed them over the edge though was their accelerated entry programme.  If you have a business degree and at least 3 years of management experience you only need 30 additional credits to finish your MBA.  You have four years to finish but most people finish in less than 2 years.
Royal Roads was my 2nd  choice and I have heard great things from friends you have taken crses from there previously. 



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Depending on the factors driving the idea of a "masters" ie points on the SCRIT, employment after the CAF, etc, don't discount various other credentials like CPA, CFA, SCM, etc... they are often far better for "distance" learners, offer a specific tangible skill to industry, and depending* on the SCRIT can be worth the same as a Master's.
> 
> *I think the Log branch dropped the ball on that one and made professional certifications worth a point less than a Master's while complaining about how they want more CPAs. The Infantry SCRIT, however, treats them both the same. So yeah, it depends on which SCRIT / rank level / etc.


I am almost positive for the Capt to Maj Scrit there are zero points for Masters or professional designations and up to two points for Maj – LCol.  I was just comparing them Friday to the RCEME ones but will check again.   For Capt – Maj they use to be there but were removed.  The CM at ones of his brfs a few years ago said that at that rank level they really didn’t want people focusing on Masters as they were fairly useless in terms of utility at that point in their careers.


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## ballz

MJP said:
			
		

> I am almost positive for the Capt to Maj Scrit there are zero points for Masters or professional designations and up to two points for Maj – LCol.



That's what I'm tracking too, I was referring to the Log Maj - LCol SCRIT because the NSDreamer mentioned they are already a Major.



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> For Capt – Maj they use to be there but were removed.  The CM at ones of his brfs a few years ago said that at that rank level they really didn’t want people focusing on Masters as they were fairly useless in terms of utility at that point in their careers.



Who knows, I started my CPA to get out of the military, not because of any points on a SCRIT. That line of thinking is underscored by an assumption that they have any utility at any point, but I digress. I hate credentialism but I did find it pretty funny that on paper the Infantry Corps values a CPA more than the Logistics branch.


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## MJP

ballz said:
			
		

> That's what I'm tracking too, I was referring to the Log Maj - LCol SCRIT because the NSDreamer mentioned they are already a Major.
> 
> Who knows, I started my CPA to get out of the military, not because of any points on a SCRIT. That line of thinking is underscored by an assumption that they have any utility at any point, but I digress. I hate credentialism but I did find it pretty funny that on paper the Infantry Corps values a CPA more than the Logistics branch.



I hear ya.  I am an old CFR, MBA is for post military ventures.  I won't drag the threat down a different path but your digression is a good point that should be looked at IMHO.


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## dimsum

MJP said:
			
		

> I just started my MBA through Athabasca and look at a number of options before settling on them.  It came down to ease of access, in-residence requirements and overall timeline...Royal Roads was my 2nd  choice and I have heard great things from friends you have taken crses from there previously.



Dummy question, but for online-heavy MBAs is there a "pecking order" ie. would an MBA from Royal Roads be "better" or more appreciated than one through Athabasca?  Obviously not talking about Harvard, Yale or that level here.


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## daftandbarmy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Dummy question, but for online-heavy MBAs is there a "pecking order" ie. would an MBA from Royal Roads be "better" or more appreciated than one through Athabasca?  Obviously not talking about Harvard, Yale or that level here.



The magic is in the letters: MBA.... plus your many years of military service. 

No one really cares where you got the degree, unless you're 22 years old of course.


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## NSDreamer

First thanks mods for moving my other post! I typed Masters instead of Master so this thread didn't show...so close and so far!



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> The CM at ones of his brfs a few years ago said that at that rank level they really didn’t want people focusing on Masters as they were fairly useless in terms of utility at that point in their careers.



I hear you there, but I've plateaued for training. Short of AOC/ALOC there are no more courses I can take that will count for PD on my PER this year, I've done just about every onesy twosie including DA, Repat, Presiding, finance ones etc etc... I was loaded on french but got pulled out for an overseas posting and I find myself with a lot of time at nights to focus on projects so I figure Good for Career, might as well get started on it!

I looked at things like CLP, CPA, but the utility after I retire is the question I have there. No one in industry I've talked to has even heard of Certified Logistics Professional, and I have no real interest in accounting so I'm dubious on the CPA as well. Still...might be a thing, who knows?  

 Royal Roads looks good, but that residency portion makes it impossible as I will not be back in Canada until late 2019 at best and will miss the ball.

 I just worry about Athabasca as people looking at it as a 'lesser' if I apply for a corporate job after I hit pension.


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## daftandbarmy

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> I just worry about Athabasca as people looking at it as a 'lesser' if I apply for a corporate job after I hit pension.



Don't worry about the 'prestige' thing. With your military background you'll easily match up against any other civvy contenders in most job competitions.

e.g., I know a retired Master Seaman, a Stoker, who did the RRU MBA and got picked up by a big consulting company where he is doing very well.


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## tree hugger

Wondering if there are any current or recent Grads in the MPA program at RMC.  I'm looking to complete part-time DL and I was wondering if there is a best order in selecting what courses should be done.  Thanks for any help.


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