# A/C Hours?



## avro87 (20 Oct 2006)

Can anyone give me an idea what kind of hours our pilots get on CF aircraft?  CF-18, Hercs, martime a/c, the airbus, etc.


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## Crimmsy (20 Oct 2006)

It varies widely. I'll leave it to the guys with more time in than me to speak for their communities, but as far as pre-wings training goes, have a read through www.nftc.net for a breakdown of hours per phase.


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## Strike (20 Oct 2006)

Minimum required to stay "current is 50 hrs/6 months for the Grif.

I think I pulled off about 250 last year.  Keep in mind that there are holidays, leave, courses, and exercises (where you may not necessarily be flying) lumped into all of that.  Also, bad weather days, low on the priority list, and admin days to stay on top of everything.  Mind you, this month alone I've clocked over 30 hrs.  This includes a week of leave and ground training and another week on a non-flying exercise.  Not bad for 2 weeks.


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## Astrodog (20 Oct 2006)

from a pretty reliable source, hornet drivers log roughly 200-250hrs... if youre new on the sqdn it can up to 280 or so...


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## aesop081 (20 Oct 2006)

I'm not a pilot but I have logged 500 hours so far this year on the CP-140 and still have 2 months of flying and 1 away trip left this year. Most of our pilots will get 500 hours in a year


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## Inch (20 Oct 2006)

I've got 255hrs this year so far on the Sea King, 90hrs of that has been in the last 3 months though I am deployed right now. Sea King drivers will bag around 250hrs per year, more if you're deployed, less if you're back home. In Shearwater you're lucky to get 20hrs a month (I had 5hrs in July), when you're at sea you'll bag 30-40hrs a month (36.8hrs last month) and sometimes more. If we continue the way we're going, I should top 40hrs this month, I've got 2 sorties scheduled today so I'll break 30hrs for the month and it's only the 21st.


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## Zoomie (20 Oct 2006)

In the FWSAR world it all depends on what is happening.  My high month this past summer was 59 hrs, low month was 9.7 hrs.

1 CAD regulations state that each pilot must fly a minimum of 30 hours per quarter (3 months).


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## avro87 (21 Oct 2006)

Thanks guys!  I have to say this is one of the biggest deterants for me joining the air force.  I want to fly, and I dont know if I could deal with flying 250 hours in a year.  I hope this doesnt sound selfish, but it's the truth.  I realize it is probably 250 hours of fun flying, and on some pretty sweet aircraft, but its not very much time.  Does anyone know if there are indications of the airforce increasing the amount of time for pilots on aircraft such as the F-18.  I mean, is 250 hours enough to stay top notch on an aircraft like the F-18?  I dont know, just curious?


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## Sf2 (22 Oct 2006)

SOF truth#2 - 

Quality is better than Quantity.


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## Zoomie (22 Oct 2006)

Sorry Avro - accumulating flying hours in the CF is not our top priority.  Mission comes first.  We are not a stepping stone for your job at Air Canada.

I seriously doubt that flying hours on the Hornet will increase.

If you want to fly lots of hours - become an flying school instructor.  You will get very proficient at flying circuits at your flying club.  

If you want to really learn how to fly and see things that nobody gets to witness - join the CF.  It's your choice - we have lots of applicants to our program, so we won't come begging after you.


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## SupersonicMax (22 Oct 2006)

There's nothing wrong about asking the amount of hours we do in the CF...  Not everyone wants to stay in the CF forever.  And do not tell me that we should all be happy and be in the CF for the rest of our lives.  Please!  I'm not saying that it is better joining the CF in order to have free flight training.  Well... I think it's totally wrong.. But anyways

To answer the question...  Sometimes, it depends of you.  Some people where I am at fly much more than other guys.  Why?  They are willing to fly anytime (nights, week ends, away trips, etc).  Some other guys just want to fly between 9-3 and that's it.  Those guys usually get the least amount of flying hours per month.  A guy last month pulled 65 hrs.

I also hear than instructors get a big share of the flying hours.  

Max


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## avro87 (22 Oct 2006)

FYI, im not trying to disrespect the CAF.  I would not join the air force as a stepping stone, I would join because I would love to serve my country, see things that very few get to, fly cool planes, etc.  Besides, the air force is one big stepping stone, if your going to refer to it as that.  Usually stepping stones dont last 11 or 12 years of your life.  I'm asking questions like this to help me deside what I'm going to do.  I'm not about to sign my life away for 12 years with out exploring every single aspect of the Canadian Air Force.  It would be an honour to fly in the Canadian Air Force, but like I say, I need to make sure I make the right desision.


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## beenthere (23 Oct 2006)

The military profession is something to be considered as a way of life rather than a job. For pilots and all aircrew it's more of  what you do rather than how much you do of it. 
Most flying is about doing specific operational roles which are unique to military missions. Anti submarine operations require crews that are proficient in skills to locate, track and destroy submarines. Transport involves a lot more than hauling boxes from one airport to another. Search and rescue involves specific methods for operations. Army support helicopter crews work in support of ground forces and have to know how battle plans are carried out and where they fit into the picture. Fighter pilots have tactics for whatever mission they are supporting. 
All military missions involve a lot more than just flying. They involve a lot of planing and coordination with other elements of military operations so that the right things happen at the right time. Usually a plan changes in mid stream and requires considerable knowledge of operations to adapt to evolving situations in order to complete the mission.
It's a lot more than flying. Flying is usually just the way to get to the mission.


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## Elwood (23 Oct 2006)

I know an Air Canada pilot, and he says that military experience doesn't always guarantee an airliner job. Military people are sometimes turned away because civilians can get a lot more flying hours logged. He says they used to like hiring ex-fighter pilots, but they rarely do as of now. 

Myself, I like the idea of a full CF career and retiring in my fourties with a full pension. Then I can fish 'tiil I die.


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## SupersonicMax (23 Oct 2006)

IF you look on the Air Canada requirement page for pilots, you will notice that military experience is a plus.  When you have the minimum requirements (which is 1000 hrs, with multi-IFR for Air Canada), they look at what else you have.  Here is what's good to have but not required for Air Canada :

Canadian Airline Transport Pilot licence (easy to get once you have the time required which is 1500 hrs and some other small requirements)
University degree or college diploma (Now, every pilot in the CF has that no?)
Aviation College diploma (No dice)
Military or commercial flight experience (Our military pilots have military flight experience I hope!)
Jet and/or glass cockpit experience (we all go through training on a glass cockpit.  Fighter is Jets)
Additional language(s) (we are all supposed to be bilingual at least)

So, I know for sure Air Canada likes military pilots, even though we have less hours than a civilian equivalent.  They don't compare hour for hours when they compare military hours vs civilian hours.  More like 4:1  (4 civilian hours = 1 military hour)

Max


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## Astrodog (1 Nov 2006)

Just wanted to correct myself, checked my notes and Hornet pilots fly 180-200hrs annually.. sorry for the confusion.


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## avro87 (1 Nov 2006)

Do the 180-200 hours the CF-18 pilots acquire include exercises such as Maple Flag, and the one that takes place in Hawaii every year?  Also curious as to how many CF-18 pilots and other pilots in the CF are able to participate in those exercises.


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## Astrodog (1 Nov 2006)

Well I can't speak on behalf of the hornet community, I am going directly by what a driver told me. New guys on squadron can expect roughly 200 per year whilst the more experienced guys get in the neighbourhood of 180, though some of the more experienced guys can get on the FWIC and fly a bunch of hours in 5 months. I assume the figures include all excersizes such as flag, trident fury and RIMPAC. Maybe one of the real deal drivers can chime in on the participation in various excersizes?


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## aesop081 (1 Nov 2006)

while i cannot speak for the front enders, or the CF-18 comunity , it boils down to a thing called YFR.

Yearly Flying Rate

Each squadron is authorized a certain number of flying hours per year.  This includes all Exercises such as RIMPAC, JMC, MAPLE FLAG, etc.....

The sqns spread those hours throughout the aircrews available based on operations and training requirements.  Some Aircraft comunities have a larger YFR than others based on what they do.
Like i said, i have a little over 500 hours flying time this year, spread between fights from home (both training and operational), RIMPAC, NORPAT, TRIDENT FURRY, MAPLE GUARDIAN, NOBLE MANTA and other missions


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## avro87 (1 Nov 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> while i cannot speak for the front enders, or the CF-18 comunity , it boils down to a thing called YFR.
> 
> Yearly Flying Rate
> 
> ...


What are you flying on right now?


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## Sf2 (1 Nov 2006)

I'm on the griffon - Just broke 140 hrs - slow year, cleared 240 last year.


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## avro87 (1 Nov 2006)

Can you tell me a bit about flying the Griffon?  How do you like flying it?  I'm curious what your day to day life is since you're looking at around 250 hours a year?  Do you usually fly every day?  Where are you based, and do you work a lot with people in the army.  Basically just curious what life in the CF as a helicopter pilot is like?  Sorry for all the questions, just interested.  Thanks very much!


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## beenthere (1 Nov 2006)

He (cdnaviator)smells like an Aurora type. The mission names are a bit salty.
Crew on fixed wing ASW-Maratime Patrol aircraft fly longer missions than fighter or helicopter crews. I can't speak from experience as I didn't go that route but I would consider 10 to 12 hours would be a typical flight with transit time to and from the mission area done on autopilot and the mission itself involving hands on flying at low altitude over water.
In the transport role flights vary. Typically they would be from 2 to 15 hours. Anything from paradrops which are low and fast hands on flying to long range trips where the autopilot flys the aircraft.
In the helicopter world flights are typically shorter but tend to be more "intense" because they usually involve troop lifts over short distances, slinging equipment, hoisting personnel and other activities that are close up and hands on. A typical troop lift would depart from a helipad, insert troops into a clearing in the woods and return for more.
Search and rescue missions usually don't follow a specific plan and the crew are often very busy flying and developing a mission plan as the event unfolds.
Each type of flying requires the crews to have specific training and skills and that they know the role and organization of the other military units involved in the mission. It involves much more than the ability to fly the aircraft. That's one of the reasons that pilots often stay in a specific role for most or all of their careers. As they develop a good sense of their particular role they become involved in the planing of operations and developing new tactics and become a part of the the system that manages the operation. 
It takes considerable knowledge of the whole operation to become a part of the team that runs it.


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## Sf2 (2 Nov 2006)

I won't go into mission specifics, but I can tell you that you don't fly every day.  Typically 2-3 times a week, 5-6 times during busy periods.  Flights range between 1-3 hrs, depending on the type.  Schedules can be very inconsistant - in other words, one day you're working 8-4, next day, 6pm til 2am, so it can play with your internal rythms a bit (and sleeping patterns).  It also makes things difficult, because quite often you are flying at the END of your work day, when you're the most tired - because typically a day is planned around your "crew day" - which is the allowable time, by regulations, that you are allowed to fly/work in a given day.  A lot of times, you are working to the maximum allowable time, with mission planning taking up the majority, and then executing that plan at the very end, down to the minute that you are no longer legally allowed to fly.

Working with your customer involves actually flying them around, as well as liasion for mission planning.  How often that happens depends on your customer, as well as your training requirements.  Flying helos is very, very hands on.  While there is an autopilot on the Griffon, the only time it is used is during long transits or IFR.  The remainder is all hands and feet, day and night (on night vision goggles)


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## avro87 (2 Nov 2006)

Thanks SF2.  In the time that you're not flying what are you usually doing (debriefs/briefings etc?)?  Is it enjoyable work?


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## aesop081 (2 Nov 2006)

avro87 said:
			
		

> and the one that takes place in Hawaii every year?



Just noticed.......

RIMPAC , in Hawaii, is held every 2 years ....not annualy.  next one is in 2008


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## beenthere (3 Nov 2006)

In the transport world if you aren't scheduled to fly you are on days off. Because most flying is away from base and some trips are several days in duration you are either flying or off. Trips are usually scheduled weeks in advance with the exception of some unscheduled trips which come up on short notice.


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## avro87 (3 Nov 2006)

What aircraft are included in transport?  I assume it would be the Airbus and challenger?  What kind of trips do these aircraft get to do, and how often?  Are there quite a few international flights with these aircraft?


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## aesop081 (3 Nov 2006)

avro87 said:
			
		

> What aircraft are included in transport?  I assume it would be the Airbus and challenger?  What kind of trips do these aircraft get to do, and how often?  Are there quite a few international flights with these aircraft?



Dont forget the CC-130 Hercules and soon our brand new C-17s


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## Zoomie (3 Nov 2006)

Ahem - CC-115 Buffalo, Twin Otter


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## C1Dirty (13 Nov 2006)

> Sorry Avro - accumulating flying hours in the CF is not our top priority.  Mission comes first.  We are not a stepping stone for your job at Air Canada.



Wah?  Nobody told me that.  If you want to commit ten plus yrs to the CF in the hopes of getting on with AC, all the power to you.  Although with a starting salary of 37 grand at AC, it's more of a leap of faith than a stepping stone.


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## Good2Golf (13 Nov 2006)

Guys in the know will confirm that going to the airlines is not nearly as attractive (business case-wise) than in years past.  Talk with a Big Red flyer and you'll be shocked at how little you get in the first years after making the hop.  RJ/Emb FO's are not making huge money, and it takes a quite a while to grow the seniority to sit right seat on a 67 or 30/40, let alone get promoted to the left seat.  Either you get out as soon as possilbe after you obligatory service or the numbers don't support a move nearly as much as lifestyle choice/change would.

G2G


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## Astrodog (13 Nov 2006)

Plus, http://www.aviation.ca/content/view/3791/1/ ... The real boom is flying in the Far East and UAE... places that require 3,000hrs minimum in most cases...


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## SupersonicMax (13 Nov 2006)

Astrodog said:
			
		

> Plus, http://www.aviation.ca/content/view/3791/1/ ... The real boom is flying in the Far East and UAE... places that require 3,000hrs minimum in most cases...



And then you are suddenly stuck in a simili communist company where you have no choice whatsoever on your schedule and so on.

Max


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## UB6IB9 (17 Nov 2006)

hey avro, if you really wanted to serve your country...like you said....and not use the CF as a stepping stone to AC...like you said....why don't you join the infantry....uh uh uh but but??.....didn't think so.


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## avro87 (17 Nov 2006)

UB6 said:
			
		

> hey avro, if you really wanted to serve your country...like you said....and not use the CF as a stepping stone to AC...like you said....why don't you join the infantry....uh uh uh but but??.....didn't think so.



Yes, I would love to serve my country.  However, that would just be a bonus if a joined the CF.  It's also a career move (also flying is my passion).  So I have no intentions of joining the infantry. I suppose you read my mind.


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## Loachman (17 Nov 2006)

UB6 said:
			
		

> hey avro, if you really wanted to serve your country...like you said....and not use the CF as a stepping stone to AC...like you said....why don't you join the infantry....uh uh uh but but??.....didn't think so.


What does this have to do with anything, and why don't YOU join the Infantry?


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