# Surprise! Another example of pay being mis-handled.



## Hammer Sandwich (18 Dec 2010)

I got this little gift yesterday in the mail. 
(Names have been changed to protect the _exquisitely_ incompetent).
_________________________________________________________________________________
XX Circus Battalion
PO Box ----- Stn Forces
Hallyflax, NS 90210

####-# (Rel Clk)

9 December 2010

SN# SN# SN#
Pte Sandwich H.
98 Address Cres.
Eastern Passage, NS 

NOTIFICATION OF DEBIT BALANCE

1.	An audit of your pay has revealed a debit balance of $234.16. This debit amount results from an over payment on your RPSR account

2.	It would be appreciated if you would forward a certified cheque or money order; payable to the Receiver General of Canada, for the amount so that your pay account can be closed. If it is not convenient for you to forward payment in the full amount at this time, or if you have any question concerning the debit, please contact Cpl Bla Blablah, Release Clerk at ###-####

3.	A pre-addressed envelope is enclosed for your reply.

(squiggly signature)
Some Guy I’ve never heard of
Lieutenant-Colonel
Commanding Officer

Enclosures: 1

Pre-addressed envelope
_________________________________________________________________________________

Wow. 
Just wow.
Not only did you people repeatedly, and thoroughly bungle any administrative duties in relation to my time in the Reserves, you come back _2 goddamn years_ after I release, and ask me for more friggin money?
YOU NEVER EVEN SENT ME ANY RELEASE PAPERWORK!

Now I have to contact my bank, and get all my records since 2006, go through all that crap,  and then try to get copies/reprints of all of my statements from you, (which I’m sure will be like pulling teeth).

You’ll be lucky if I don’t use “envelope, enclosed, 1”, to mail you a cat poop.
Jackasses.

Merry Friggin Christmas, and screw you very much,

Hammer Sandwich


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## dale622 (18 Dec 2010)

At least you got a letter! My Mrs. was recently informed that they were taking $6K of unpaid pensions. So 90% of her pay is being garnished by pay services. Merry f**king Christmas.


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

OK. This and the fact the ResF pers are still getting screwed into waiting MONTHS to get paid while on tours and taskings highlights the fact that the Reserve Force Pay System should be a PRIORITY for the CF to sort the fuck out already.

Perhaps, in the spirit of the Holiday season, the good non-elected Senate will take up this actual PRIORITY issue forthwith and we may actually see something done to correct this widely-known problem that actually does affect lives by negatively impacting one's ability to feed, house and clothe one's family. 

Mission first; troops always.

 :brickwall:


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## PuckChaser (18 Dec 2010)

RPSR and the RegF system don't talk.... unless you owe RPSR money. Then it freezes your RegF pay account....

I waited 3 months to get my Cl C and Cl B pay sorted out, even after specifically leaving money in my bank account to cover the Cl B to Cl C mid month transfer. When I CT'd... another 3 months to get a pay account working that already existed in the system. Clerks could see it, get into it, do everything but actually turn my pay on.

You figure they'd get it right after how many years?


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## Hammer Sandwich (18 Dec 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps, in the spirit of the Holiday season, the good non-elected Senate will take up this actual PRIORITY issue forthwith and we may actually see something done to correct this widely-known problem that actually does affect lives by negatively impacting one's ability to feed, house and clothe one's family.
> 
> Mission first; troops always.



That yellow stuff right there is about as well worded as it could be. 
The clusterf-ck that was (and apparently still is) the Reserves pay system is effectively what prevented me from having any sort of career in the forces. 

How so, you ask? Let us see;

-My wife had to borrow money to pay our mortgage while I was away on BMQ, as the pay was messed up, and the Aldershot OR wouldn't give me advances against my claim, even after I travelled to my unit OR back in Halifax, and had them call Aldershot OR to set an advance up.

-Once, after yet another pay period with no deposit into my account, I got a severe jacking up for asking where my pay was. I was told, QUOTE," You shouldn't just _expect_ money to _show up_ in your account every 15th & 30th...who the f-ck do you think you are, Private?"END QUOTE

Even though I had course offers aplenty, I sure as hell wasn't going to Borden for three months, possibly leaving my Wife and Daughter penniless, (again).

Reserve career, full stop.

Edit to add link to Civy Trading Post....guess the guitar's for sale now, too..... 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/97431.0.html


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## OldSolduer (18 Dec 2010)

You got a jacking for inquiring about your pay? Considering its the responsibility of each member to know their pay and allowances, I'd say you're in the right. Whoever jacked you....needed one themselves. Just the CSM side of me coming out.

Vern, you have it right. Troops always.


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## Hammer Sandwich (18 Dec 2010)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You got a jacking for inquiring about your pay? Considering its the responsibility of each member to know their pay and allowances, I'd say you're in the right. Whoever jacked you....needed one themselves. Just the CSM side of me coming out.



Darn tootin'. 
That particular instance, alot of people didn't get paid, so I'm sure this Sgt had gotten sick of fielding inquiries about what happened to the money we were supposed to get, but IMO, that was no excuse for the attitude. 

I got mine, though. I farted at the counter the next time I went to the OR. 8)
Take that!


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## Old Sweat (18 Dec 2010)

I've maintained for more years than I care to remember that the fastest and most effective way to fix the reserve pay system is to use it to pay the generals and full colonels and their equivalents in senior DND civilians.


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## OldSolduer (18 Dec 2010)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I've maintained for more years than I care to remember that the fastest and most effective way to fix the reserve pay system is to use it to pay the generals and full colonels and their equivalents in senior DND civilians.



And no one is going to jack them up for asking "where's my pay?"


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## Task (18 Dec 2010)

I am in complete awe. I honestly had no idea the reserve system was so bad. *POP   (my bubble)

My ignorance continues:
Why can't reserves be on the same system as us (regs)?
Has the ombudsman been told? 
Are the senior Officers in the reserves on the same pay system?


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## George Wallace (18 Dec 2010)

Task said:
			
		

> I am in complete awe. I honestly had no idea the reserve system was so bad. *POP   (my bubble)
> 
> My ignorance continues:
> Why can't reserves be on the same system as us (regs)?
> ...



As a Reg you are paid for 365(6) days a year.  Your montly pay is for the whole month and paid on the 15th and end month.  Reservists are paid at 85% of Reg Force Pay unless they are on Class C which is administered by RPSR as Reg Force Pay (100%).

Then you have members who parade for half days and full days as Class A Reservists for approx four half days and perhaps four full days per month.  Class B Reservists are working full time (as 85% Reg Force Pay) for periods of 30, 60, 90, 180, three years, etc.  At the same time, a Class A Reservist may get a couple of days of employment to do some small job at a unit or a short tasking.  Once the Reservist goes away on a full time course, their pay is also changed.

There are supposedly rumours that the two pay systems may be merged, but you can already see the problems that the Pay System faces in keeping track of what a person will get paid as a Reservist.  Reg Force Pay is so simple compared to managing the Reserve System.

As for Senior officers in the Reserves; if they are Reservists, yes.


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## Hammer Sandwich (18 Dec 2010)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And no one is going to jack them up for asking "where's my pay?"



Haha, that would be something to hear...

"What the hell is your problem, sir?!?......You should have money saved up, just in case something like this is to happen...Sir.
You'll just get more on your next paycheck anyways, so stop bitching...Sir."

Oh, to be a fly on that wall.


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## OldSolduer (18 Dec 2010)

Interestingly our troops didn't get paid once. Of course when the pay staff was told of this, we were told "this is a part time job and the troops shouldn't be depending on this money". THEN, they stated that emergency payments are a lot of work for them blah blah blah.....
In short, once the RSM got involved....things changed. And so has the OR staff.


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## chrisf (18 Dec 2010)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> Darn tootin'.
> That particular instance, alot of people didn't get paid, so I'm sure this Sgt had gotten sick of fielding inquiries about what happened to the money we were supposed to get, but IMO, that was no excuse for the attitude.



No excuse. If they were sick of answering the inquiries, it meant there were a lot of inquiries, and somone should have been proactive and contacted the effective troops.

I can accept that if you start a contract, it's hit or miss if you'll get paid on the first pay period of said contract, depending on when your pay was entered, however, as of the following period, and all pay periods following such, it is quite reasonable to expect it to be there, and more importantly, unreasonable for it not to be there.

You have no idea how angry it makes me that this individual reacted this way. I can assure you, if I were to get the response, my reaction would be less than restrained.


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## chrisf (18 Dec 2010)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> THEN, they stated that emergency payments are a lot of work for them blah blah blah.....



Reasonable Response:

"Oh, I'm sorry, I had no idea your lives were so difficult. You know what's a lot of work for everybody else? DOING THEIR GOD DAMN JOB AND NOT GETTING PAID!"


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## dogger1936 (18 Dec 2010)

Same sorta B/S on the reg force side. My pay was going to be docked over 300 dollars as the clerks overpaid me on a tasking. I would have been 300 dollars short on this pay however I have a good relationship with their chief clerk and it will be taken off over multiple pays. I am very aware of my pay, however as a combat arms soldier I cannot forsee a clerical error.

I really can never understand how a clerks overpayment becomes my pay problem.

This has far from been the only episode in my career. Only thing has changed now as a Snr NCO compared to a NCM is they are polite when telling me their mistakes will affect my paycheck.


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## ballz (18 Dec 2010)

Reg Force story:

The first summer I went away for BMOQ, I was on TD and received incidentals, filed my claiim, and St. Jean sent the CLDA stuff a few months later. I was then told I would not be receiving the CLDA because I had already been paid incidentals for those days. I emailed back and asked why couldn't the incidentals be taken back and the CLDA paid to me, so that I would end up with the difference (the CLDA for 10 days in the field being much more than 10 days of 13 dollar incidentals). Of course, no reply, and I didn't get paid the CLDA. A difference of up to 200 dollars if IIRC. Being new and not wanting to cause a fuss at the OR or make a name for myself, I took a mental note to ensure it did not happen again. I would be fine without the 200 dollars.

This past summer, they put a sticker on the front page of my claim saying what days I was getting CLDA and for how much, and that it would be on it's way in the mail shortly. I pointed this out to the clerk when I handed it to him, as I did not want the stupid crap from last year happening again. So my TD claim goes through, I receive the money in the bank. The CLDA goes through, I receive the money in the bank. A few weeks ago, I get a call from the clerk, saying the 12 days I received CLDA for I was also paid incidentals for, and so now I owe 12 x $13 = $156 back.

Two things crossed my mind. 1. When I was owed money, nobody gave a shit. They took the easy route instead of doing their job and correcting the mistake, but when I owed money, they did their job because somebody from higher up told them I owed money.

and 2. I just can't win.


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## Hammer Sandwich (18 Dec 2010)

All of the posts above burn me up.
If there were any sort of pay issues akin to the issues described in this thread in a civillian job, heads would roll.

Jesus H Baldheaded Christ, I could work the Orange Julius stand at the friggin mall, and get paid on time, and probably the right amount, as well. 

I realize that a large amount of people have to be paid at all sorts of different levels, with different caveats...etc, but that's why each unit has an O.R.

Screw it, I'm goin' to get drunk.


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## chrisf (18 Dec 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> The first summer I went away for BMOQ, I was on TD and received incidentals, filed my claiim, and St. Jean sent the CLDA stuff a few months later. I was then told I would not be receiving the CLDA because I had already been paid incidentals for those days. I emailed back and asked why couldn't the incidentals be taken back and the CLDA paid to me, so that I would end up with the difference (the CLDA for 10 days in the field being much more than 10 days of 13 dollar incidentals). Of course, no reply, and I didn't get paid the CLDA. A difference of up to 200 dollars if IIRC. Being new and not wanting to cause a fuss at the OR or make a name for myself, I took a mental note to ensure it did not happen again. I would be fine without the 200 dollars.



I don't know how CLDA works, haven't been paid enough of it since it came up to really care to look into it, maybe somthing has changed, but i can't imagine it's any different then FOA, any time I've been on TD, and went into the field, I received FOA for those days, not TD....


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## Pusser (18 Dec 2010)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Same sorta B/S on the reg force side. My pay was going to be docked over 300 dollars as the clerks overpaid me on a tasking. I would have been 300 dollars short on this pay however I have a good relationship with their chief clerk and it will be taken off over multiple pays. I am very aware of my pay, however as a combat arms soldier I cannot forsee a clerical error.
> 
> I really can never understand how a clerks overpayment becomes my pay problem.
> 
> This has far from been the only episode in my career. Only thing has changed now as a Snr NCO compared to a NCM is they are polite when telling me their mistakes will affect my paycheck.



It's not the clerk's problem either.  Our pay system is automated, which means the computer does the calculations and spits out the numbers.  It does this based on the inputs, which can come from many sources at any time without one clerk knowing what another clerk is doing, particularly when these clerks may be in entirely different parts of the country.  However, at the end of the day, when the numbers come up, the poor clerk has to deal with the disgruntled non-payee at the counter.  I'm not making excuses for the pay system (especially RPSR which is really screwed up) and any clerk, however senior, who refuses to help a member when things go pear-shaped is simply not doing his/her job.  There are always ways and means to resolve issues on the spot (e.g. casual payments if required).  You're entitled to your pay and you are entitled to it on time.  Having said that though, the regulations are quite clear that all members are to familiar with their rates of pay, allowances and entitlements and that they are to report under/overpayments immediately.  More often than not, you will keep the overpayment and you will simply receive less the next time - problem solved and you get an interest-free loan.  However, this seldom happens.  While I have seen dozens of people over the years show up at the pay office within minutes of being underpaid, I can count on one hand the number of folks I've seen report an overpayment in the last 20 years.  While I have a great deal of sympathy for someone who gets overpaid $10/mo for three years (which is VERY difficult to detect) and will work diligently to figure out a reasonable re-payment schedule, I have considerably less sympathy for someone who suddenly receives a $500 bonus and then gripes when we go to take it back.  I have almost no sympathy for folks who blow an entire advance on a claim before the trip even takes place.  When all is said and done, remember, an overpayment is not your money.  It's the taxpayer's money and as a taxpayer, aren't you glad there's someone out there looking after it? ;D


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## Pusser (18 Dec 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Reg Force story:
> 
> The first summer I went away for BMOQ, I was on TD and received incidentals, filed my claiim, and St. Jean sent the CLDA stuff a few months later. I was then told I would not be receiving the CLDA because I had already been paid incidentals for those days. I emailed back and asked why couldn't the incidentals be taken back and the CLDA paid to me, so that I would end up with the difference (the CLDA for 10 days in the field being much more than 10 days of 13 dollar incidentals). Of course, no reply, and I didn't get paid the CLDA. A difference of up to 200 dollars if IIRC. Being new and not wanting to cause a fuss at the OR or make a name for myself, I took a mental note to ensure it did not happen again. I would be fine without the 200 dollars.
> 
> ...



The question here is whether you should paid CLDA or TD.  You received both and have to pay one of them back.  The "system" is not allowed to choose the cheapest option, but nor is it allowed to let you keep both.  You should be paid the same as everybody else on course was receiving.  As long as that's the case, you have no cause for complaint.  Due to an administrative error you've been overpaid, which is much better than being underpaid.  Since you seem to know that you were overpaid and could see it coming, you should have prepared for it and put the money aside.  Look at it as an optimist and consider the overpayment as an interest-free loan.


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## ballz (18 Dec 2010)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I don't know how CLDA works, haven't been paid enough of it since it came up to really care to look into it, maybe somthing has changed, but i can't imagine it's any different then FOA, any time I've been on TD, and went into the field, I received FOA for those days, not TD....



Yes, I know that, and yes, you can't get paid both, it's one or the other.

What I am saying is, I got paid incidentals instead of CLDA (maybe it was called FOA when I did BMOQ in the summer of 09, I can't remember now.), and they wouldn't fix it for me (CLDA or FOA, was much more than the $13/day incidentals, so I was owed more money). I was suppose to receive CLDA, they had already paid me incidentals, but rather than do their job and fix the error, I just got ignored.

But when it was the other way around...


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## ballz (18 Dec 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The question here is whether you should paid CLDA or TD.  You received both and have to pay one of them back.  The "system" is not allowed to choose the cheapest option, but nor is it allowed to let you keep both.  You should be paid the same as everybody else on course was receiving.  As long as that's the case, you have no cause for complaint.  Due to an administrative error you've been overpaid, which is much better than being underpaid.  Since you seem to know that you were overpaid and could see it coming, you should have prepared for it and put the money aside.  Look at it as an optimist and consider the overpayment as an interest-free loan.



My complaint isn't with paying it back when I was overpaid. It's the clerk not fixing the mistake when I was underpaid.

My cause of complaint is in the first example, when I was basically being told to get f**ked when I was paid the wrong one (the right one would have resulted in more money in my pocket). Rather than fix it, I got an email saying "we're not going to pay it to you" and when I replied back saying "please pay me the correct one" they ignored me.


EDIT: Btw, I did not know I was overpaid. I told the clerk when I handed him my TD claim "I am receiving CLDA for these days (right here, on this sticker on the front page!). Do not pay  me incidentals for these days." I took for granted that he had listened when I received the TD claim in my bank account, and that the incidentals for those days were deducted. They were not. And that is why I ended up being overpaid. Not an administrative error, that's a human error.


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## chrisf (18 Dec 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Yes, I know that, and yes, you can't get paid both, it's one or the other.
> 
> What I am saying is, I got paid incidentals instead of CLDA (maybe it was called FOA when I did BMOQ in the summer of 09, I can't remember now.), and they wouldn't fix it for me (CLDA or FOA, was much more than the $13/day incidentals, so I was owed more money). I was suppose to receive CLDA, they had already paid me incidentals, but rather than do their job and fix the error, I just got ignored.
> 
> But when it was the other way around...



Maybe I misunderstood, but the way I read it you received TD instead of CLDA?


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## dogger1936 (18 Dec 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's not the clerk's problem either.  Our pay system is automated, which means the computer does the calculations and spits out the numbers.  It does this based on the inputs, which can come from many sources at any time without one clerk knowing what another clerk is doing, particularly when these clerks may be in entirely different parts of the country.  However, at the end of the day, when the numbers come up, the poor clerk has to deal with the disgruntled non-payee at the counter.



Well why have the clerks not addressed this computer system failure? This isnt a new thing...it been happening for years. It shouldnt be an error of over 30% should it? They gave me 80% as per and I have to pay back over 300. If I had a 30% failure rate in my job I would be replaced.


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## ballz (18 Dec 2010)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Maybe I misunderstood, but the way I read it you received TD instead of CLDA?



Yes. The end result is, I received TD ($13/day) instead of CLDA ( $(13 + X)/day) on days that I was in the field and should have been receiving CLDA instead of TD.

Instead of correcting it, they just said "you will not be receiving CLDA for such and such days."


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## aesop081 (18 Dec 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> CLDA ( $(13 + X)/day)



 CLDA :  





> $24.71 for each complete 24-hour period of that duty


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## dapaterson (18 Dec 2010)

Tangent:

CLDA is $24.71/day; incidentals are $17.30 per day.  However, as an allowance, CLDA is taxed in your hands; incidentals are not.  So, if your tax rate is greater than $7.41/24.71 = 30%, you're ahead financially to get incidentals instead of TD.


Of course, if you're gathering a lot of CLDA and then posted to an LDA unit, those additional days may get you to higher LDA levels sooner, so your situation may be different.


On topic:

I find it odd that clerks never face charges for negligent performance of duties when they screw things up like this.  There seems to be a real reluctance to hold clerks accountable for their actions/inactions - "Oops, I forgot, sorry everyone is screwed." needs corrective action, not a right justified PER.


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## Dissident (18 Dec 2010)

It is a sad state of affairs when my wife is ecstatic about getting her pay sorted in a month after she joined TF. As we waited 4-5 months (I was actually on the ground in KAF) to get my pay sorted when I went.


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## ballz (18 Dec 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> incidentals are $17.30 per day



Only for the first so many days of a TD posting... after that it's $13 (and maybe some change).


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## garb811 (18 Dec 2010)

Several years ago, when my pay was being pooched big time due to someone removing the pay note stating my account was allowed to run in the red pending the resolution of a complicated set of circumstances, three months in a row someone went in and removed the pay note, causing my pay not to be depositied.  On the third occassion, I demanded that administrative and/or disciplinary action be taken against the person(s) responsible and I was told there was no way for them to tell who had done it as the transactions were not logged.  I have not confirmed this, but it would certainly explain some of the lackadaisical attitudes a very few RMS Clerks display towards making mistake WRT pay. 

One other issue people face, and I have seen it quite frequently with my pers when their spec pay kicks in, is if the person making the initial input makes a mistake, they are unable to fix it and they must contact someone in Ottawa to get it corrected and the normal wait time I've seen is in the vicinity of 2-3 months.

As with others, I don't understand how the pay system fails so often for so many.  Our system is not that complicated in comparison to what civilian companies, or even the Public Service, faces, yet somehow they seem to get it right the vast majority of the time...probably because unlike us, they have dedicated payroll personnel.  Bring back the Finance Branch!


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## dogger1936 (18 Dec 2010)

garb811 said:
			
		

> As with others, I don't understand how the pay system fails so often for so many.  Our system is not that complicated in comparison to what civilian companies, or even the Public Service, faces, yet somehow they seem to get it right the vast majority of the time...probably because unlike us, they have dedicated payroll personnel.  Bring back the Finance Branch!



Good thoght. I agree any company I worked for my pay was never messed up. I also had very similar benifits IRT travel expenses etc. I also concur with the Pay clerk days...RMS clerk was when all the trouble started happening.

Keep in mind those payroll clerks in civilian companies also get FIRED if they mess up enough...ours just get shuffled around unit to unit. Our SSM fired one from our Sqn as a Cpl 4 years ago for messing peoples claims up so much...she is currently a sgt baseside.


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## dapaterson (19 Dec 2010)

As soemone who's enjoyed being paid by RDS, RPSR, CCPS and now the Public Service, I'll say that the Res Pay system is better than before, but as currently constituted the system lacks adequate audit trails.  I'll also say that, bad as they are, the military pay systems (CCPS and RPSR) seem better than the public service system - the PS system isn't designed to handle exceptions, is manpower intensive, and generally trails events by weeks or months.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Dec 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> seem better than the public service system - the PS system isn't designed to handle exceptions, is manpower intensive, and generally trails events by weeks or months



Just a note.[and off topic, sorry]
The Ontario PS system is definitively not included in the above statement. In 22 years my pay has hardly ever been screwed up and, when it has, is usually fixed in a few minutes.

..and as far as exemptions go when I work my 12 hour night shift on a weekend there are 3 different premiums that kick in for ONE shift.   19-24/ 24-07/ plus weekend premium and very seldom a problem, maybe the military needs some training from our folks.


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## MPwannabe (19 Dec 2010)

All of these examples has gotten me kind of worried about starting my post in Borden. I pay rent at home for the Fiance, and having my pay get held back would be pretty destructive.


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## aesop081 (19 Dec 2010)

MPwannabe said:
			
		

> All of these examples has gotten me kind of worried about starting my post in Borden. I pay rent at home for the Fiance, and having my pay get held back would be pretty destructive.



In 18 years of service, i have had zero problems with my pay.


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## blacktriangle (19 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> In 18 years of service, i have had zero problems with my pay.



And in a quarter of that time, I have had several serious pay issues. It all depends on circumstances and to some extent, luck. 

If you are joining the RegF straight off the bat MPwannabe (as your post implies) I wouldn't worry too much about getting paid correctly. You should be fine. If not, that's what your clerks are there for.


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## aesop081 (19 Dec 2010)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> And in a quarter of that time, I have had several serious pay issues.



I'm aware there are issues. I have worked to sort out several over the years for my troops. My point is that, although there are issues, they are not the norm (not in the regF anyways as i have very little familiarity with the Res system) and new members shouldnt start to worry before they have to worry, simply based on things they hear or read on here.


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## 4Feathers (19 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> In 18 years of service, i have had zero problems with my pay.



Bazinga my friend, 24 years of service and only minor problems that occured when deployed for me. This thread seems like an anti RMS Clerk vent/rant, when in fact, the large majority of them are working understaffed in jobs they are likely improperly trained for, while getting no love from many iRate clients. I have no time for clerks who are nothing less than professional with clients, but even less time for clients who feel they can treat the RMS staff with anything less than professionalism. An wise Chief Clerk told me once that his staff could do 1000 things right and never get noticed, but make one mistake and the whole organization is judged accordingly.


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## PuckChaser (19 Dec 2010)

That story works for every trade. No one knows who makes the comms work, but when they aren't up someone knows who to yell at to fix it....


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## GAP (19 Dec 2010)

MPwannabe said:
			
		

> All of these examples has gotten me kind of worried about starting my post in Borden. I pay rent at home for the Fiance, and having my pay get held back would be pretty destructive.



Then make sure you check and understand what you are being paid, and what is being deducted. If you don't know, ASK!!. Nobody is out to get you, but you are you own best friend. Stuff sometimes happens, but it gets compounded when people just shrug it off and assume it will get fixed without any input from them.


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## blacktriangle (19 Dec 2010)

GAP said:
			
		

> Then make sure you check and understand what you are being paid, and what is being deducted. If you don't know, ASK!!. Nobody is out to get you, but you are you own best friend. Stuff sometimes happens, but it gets compounded when people just shrug it off and assume it will get fixed without any input from them.



Great post. 

I have no time for people who whine about never having money because they are paying back thousands of dollars that they were overpaid....or because they planned their lives around allowances or claims they didn't end up getting on time. You would think it would be common sense for people to ensure they are squared away, but no! If you get paid a mysteriously large amount of money...don't just assume someone likes you, go find out what the deal is! And for the love of god don't spend it!

 ;D


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## armyvern (19 Dec 2010)

4Feathers said:
			
		

> Bazinga my friend, 24 years of service and only minor problems that occured when deployed for me. This thread seems like an anti RMS Clerk vent/rant, when in fact, the large majority of them are working understaffed in jobs they are likely improperly trained for, while getting no love from many iRate clients. I have no time for clerks who are nothing less than professional with clients, but even less time for clients who feel they can treat the RMS staff with anything less than professionalism. An wise Chief Clerk told me once that his staff could do 1000 things right and never get noticed, but make one mistake and the whole organization is judged accordingly.



To be clear, this thread was intended about the Reserve Force pay system which is wholey not comparable to the Regular Force pay system.

The Reserve Force Pay System absolutely sucks - is constantly screwing up the livlihoods of ResF personnel ... as the rule and not the exception.

In 22 years of service, I have never had an issue with my RegF pay - not even while deployed.

Although some of my troops have suffered minor pay issues throughout my TI, those minor things are corrected very quickly unlike the Reserves that can wait months for their issues to be corrected and receive their EARNED money ... and never have I ever seen a single one of my RegF pers not receive a single damned dime for a pay period while I have watched ResF members wait months to get paid and not just when deploying. If that is caused by human error, do we find the system or the pers responsible?? 

I, personally, find the system that is the ResF pay system at fault - for when these faults are the standard for pay ... the issue must not be with the inputters, but the system itself. With RegF pay problems, it usually isn't the system, but human error (because they don't read stickers on the claims stating how many days CLDA will be paid etc).  By the way, I'm quite sure the career manglers stated just 2 weeks ago at their briefing that the RMS trade was green and healthy ...


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## MPwannabe (19 Dec 2010)

GAP said:
			
		

> Then make sure you check and understand what you are being paid, and what is being deducted. If you don't know, ASK!!. Nobody is out to get you, but you are you own best friend. Stuff sometimes happens, but it gets compounded when people just shrug it off and assume it will get fixed without any input from them.



Awesome advice, thanks. I'm going to be giving the orderly room a call in the morning regarding all of this. They would only feed me minimal information before, but since I was sworn in last week I'm sure they'll start talking to me.


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## Steve031 (20 Dec 2010)

I had the unenviable experience of not being paid for 3 months this summer while on Class B training.  Despite the system's best efforts, all that could be accomplished for me was for a cheque to be deposited in my account (without notifying me) 2 weeks before training ceased.  I got the $5000 I was owed in October, my course having finished in mid August.  I couldn't even touch the cheque money until well into September because I had no idea where it had come from (didn't say federal payment on my statement or anything) and I didn't want to spend money when I couldn't account for its origin.  Of course, when I finally got the money I was owed, it was over-taxed due to the method they use for withholding income tax.  So now I have to wait until I file my tax return to finally get the rest of my pay.  

In general, my experience  with the reserve pay system this summer was ridiculous.  I was simultaneously paying rent at my apartment in Vancouver, which proceeded to eat my savings all summer while I wasn't getting paid.  Ultimately, nobody will ever be held responsible for this dog's breakfast.  Being on course, I couldn't just walk down to orderly room whenever and stay there until it was sorted.  Never mind the fact that I could have used that money to earn interest or invest.  If I had screwed the government out of its due on my tax return, you better believe they would charge me interest until I paid it.  The whole thing was just unacceptable, but it's just accepted as the norm.  Every time I went into the orderly room all I heard were a million excuses.  This indicates to me that the system is broken, and needs fixing.

Of course I also had the usual pay problems when I went on tour: not getting paid, losing records etc.  Never mind the fight I've been engaged in to get the paltry $2000 per year that I'm entitled to from the ILP system.  I could go on, but frankly it's getting a bit tiring.  The last thing I'm going to mention is that as a reservist trying to deal with these problems, I am constantly forced to go down to the OR to try to get this stuff fixed.  I would rather get teeth pulled, but the only way to ensure that action is taken is to go there and stand over them while they do it.  Being there once a week just isn't enough to deal with this administrative quagmire.

/rant


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## NSDreamer (20 Dec 2010)

I will Second umptify that the reserve pay system is buggy. I've been 'in' less then a year and already had 3 major issues with my pay each regarding a sum over 1000$ that alters my living situation greatly.


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## Danjanou (20 Dec 2010)

You know the wife is wrong I don't have Alzheimer's.  Reading this thread on Reserve Pay and I thought I'd read it all before. The magic search engine and voila:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90989/post-896439.html#msg896439

The more things change the more that they stay the same. Anyone know where they can get a batch of M-72s  >


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## PuckChaser (20 Dec 2010)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Anyone know where they can get a batch of M-72s  >



Apparently they grow wild in the woods of B.C.


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## Hammer Sandwich (20 Dec 2010)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The magic search engine and voila:
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90989/post-896439.html#msg896439


crap.
I searched high & low, my bad.

As an update, I drew my bank records covering the enitre length of my "service", and there was ne'er a payment matching the amount that is claimed that I owe.
And of course, when I called the number on the notice, the OR's off Dec 17 through Jan 7.

Does anyone in the Admin game have any clue as to how my "owed" amount was figured?
(an overpayment over time, perhaps?)
Keep in mind, I was strictly SWAT. No taskings, no postings, only 7 1/2 weeks of class B on BMQ/SQ.
(And after that abortion, I kept track of my hours, and my _amounts due_ very diligently.)
I can't figure it.

HS


-edit because I'm too dumb to use the quote button properly.


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## Dissident (20 Dec 2010)

The flip side of this is: If all the admin is going well (no problems reported) take the time to thank your clerk.

I have gone out of my way to make sure my clerk knew how I appreciated him and the fact that all our admin was always sorted out. 

Sadly, HQ decided to thank him their own way: they forced him out.

I revere support trades who do their job well. A cook who makes good meals or has hot soup when you come back in the middle of the night from a miserable patrol. A clerk who ensures you get paid/receive claims on time. A supply tech who makes sure you have your entitlement and all in the right size/fit.


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## Hammer Sandwich (20 Dec 2010)

Dissident said:
			
		

> The flip side of this is: If all the admin is going well (no problems reported) take the time to thank your clerk.
> 
> I revere support trades who do their job well. A cook who makes good meals or has hot soup when you come back in the middle of the night from a miserable patrol. A clerk who ensures you get paid/receive claims on time. A supply tech who makes sure you have your entitlement and all in the right size/fit.



I second this motion whole-heartedly. 

Being a former LOG fella myself, (supply), I've seen lotsa folks get the poo-end of the stick, and had a little poo-taste myself now and then.

Loads of people are quick to piss all over LOG, and if that's your thing, go for it.

My frustration and plain, straight-out shock comes from the incompetence I have experienced, an incompetence that was not "trade-specific-biased".


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## brihard (20 Dec 2010)

Oh hey, I love this game!  ;D I've become, it seems, the unofficial junior ranks SME (catcher, not pitcher) on pay problems in my unit.

1.   Transfer to my unit in September, 2005. Parading regularly. Didn't see a lick of pay til that January.

2.   I had one of those nifty six month time credits for my Cpl's pay due to my time in cadets. When I first made Cpl it was all well and good, and they backdated my promotion effective to my six month earlier eligibility. All was well and good until I'd been a Cpl for a year. The system hiccupped, burped, soiled itself, and suddenly forward-dated my promotion again by six months, resulting in six months' worth of the difference between Pte and Cpl being taken form me. It took quite some time (and quite some documentation) to sort that one out.

3.   This is my favourite. I was sent to an instructional tasking for two and a bit months. Through some manner of shenanigans I didn't at that point in time have a valid travel claim. I was told not to worry about it, it would be faxed to the BOR at my tasking the next day (insert admiral-akbar-its-a-trap.jpg). Quick as a flash nothing happened. "OK" sez I. "Shenanigans ensue. It happens." And so began a long and sordid chain of emails to and fro my BOR. It was about the time they stopped responding that I learned I could have outlook give me read receipts on email, which helped me to isolate the problem. Turns out an individual had gone on course or tasking or some such without handing off my claim issue (or instead, simply resolving it. It's just a friggin' claim.) Noboy knew but I, and some increasingly bemused and then horrified pay clerks at my tasking. Fast forward two pay periods- at this point I've not seen a cent, which is beginning to concern me. I'm all set to start getting annoyed. I fire a few more emails off. No read receipts. I cried on my clerks' shoulder at my tasking and was told it was gaining increasing attention there, and that they were pushing on my behalf.

Then I found out my goddamned troops weren't getting paid. Not just mine, but a number more- not a single troops form my unit at that training centre that summer had yet received pay; this five weeks in for some of them. Cue berzerker rage, the commencement of a redress, the involvement at this point of the Coy 2ic at the tasking, and my unit Adjt. back home. This was compounded by my discovery that at this point I had nearly nothing available in my bank account (tucked away in savings which were not as accessible), and that my claim _still_ had not come through- and that I couldn't get an advance! I was the senior member of my regiment (not saying much) on the ground at that place that summer, so I ended up as an impromptu go-between between all of our troops there and the ATC/Unit chains of command.

Then one day, two things happened at once. A third payday hit with de nada. And a general literally swooped in by helicopter to do one of those impromptu town halls that generals like to do sometimes at area training centres. He caught one of the other platoons, which happened to have members of my regiment in it. One of them - some years older than the other (silent) recruits, and not at all intimidated when he felt he had a rightful grievance (he did) asked the general, in perfect innocence, "Sir, when's the reserve pay system going to get fixed?" A raised eyebrow from the (Brigadier?) General, a half dozen raised hands from troops (all of the same cap badge) and some frantic scribbling on a notepad by his accompanying Major, and they were a few minutes later up, up and away by helicopter. I kinda want a helicopter.

I got an advance about 48 hours later. I later found out that simultaneously my Coy 2ic had forwarded a copy of my draft redress to my Adjt, and my CO heard from higher up that our unit had a systemic pay problem (NOT happy to hear that from above rather than below). Turns out none of our contracts had been activated - apparently literally a single mouse click. Apparently the effluence hit the oscillating ventilator, and at least one individual no longer works in our BOR. The CO also got me to write up a briefing note (a novel and intimidating experience) as essentially an AAR from the bottom end on what had gone down. So that one was fun.

4.   I just found out last week that I had been right in a sneaking suspicion for some time. This isn't a reserve problem, but it still highlights some of the issues of 'ownership' that seem to come up. I deployed on TF 3-08, and was part of the NSE, which was necessarily an amalgam unit. Due to some ambiguity about UICs or some such, it was not determined until we were actually on tour how the (then novel) LDA system would apply to us. We argued, rather forcefully, that as a force protection unit we ought to reasonably qualify for LDA (not CLDA, mind you. We were on Class C through CCPS at the time). A bunch of sage minds back home hemmed and hawed, and the RUMINT flowed. Oh did it flow. We all covetously calculated just what we figured we'd see.

So we get home post tour, a few weird and somewhat large amounts of money come and go, and we're told everything is square. "Fair enough," sez I, "so I got my LDA, right?". "Yeah, we think so... anyway, the system will reconcile everything over the next pay period or two. It's all good." I dubiously accepted that (oops) and went about my merry way, with the LDA thing still stuck in the back of my mind.

I asked about the LDA roughly quarterly at my unit, back in toon-town. "Can anyone confirm I actually got it?" I was shownthe emails sent off to someone on the reg force side of things. My CCPS account long having since gone inactive, and my clerks not having access to it, our options were limited. So a week back I asked about it having not done so in some months. Our clerk's eyes brightened- she had just finally gotten CCPS access earlier in the week. My unit sends a lot of guyson tour, so she was able to justify getting it, I guess. She pulled up my balance.

Positive $2300. I was owed my entire LDA from 12 months of workup training. I giggled, jumped around a bit, and most definitely fist pumped at least twice. The clerk, meanwhile, checked a couple of our other guys- none nearly so large (out of a small sample), but most had some positive balance.

That money, I expect, would not have ever gotten to us had someone at our end not pulled the information to check. In the new year we need to check systematically all the guys who've been over or otherwise on Cl. C to confirm no outstanding balances remain in CCPS. But they were bloody instant in contacting any of our guys who owed due to overpayments.

I also got my leaf while on tour (substantive), and never did see the pay differential from Cpl(A) to Cpl(B) (Cpl-MCpl, for those who've not squinted at pay scales and pay stubs trying to make sense of it all). Over the course of the two and a half months on class C that I was appointed MCpl, I racked up a couple hundred bucks in pay differential, but I was never made MCpl in CCPS. Apparently because my contract was originally as a Cpl, it would require finding my CO from tour to get him to sign off on something or other to authorize a retroactive amendment of the contract to reflect the change in rank (I know, appointment...). Probably not a hope in hell of that happening.





Now for my hypothesizing on what some of the contributory factors are:

As reserves, our work is sporadic and erratic. Attendance is seldom perfect, chains of command are sometimes fractured, and there seems to be a reticence to hold clerks accountable where errors are made. There is so much opportunity for error, troops are generally underinformed about how the pay system works and what they're entitled to, and, frankly, junior leaders (up to sect. comd.) level are increasingly junior these days. Some of us have learned the pay system the hard way, but many MCpls and Cpls are as much in the dark about the wonderful world of pay as the troops are. I'm able to look at any of my guys' pay records and their corresponding complaints and 'troubleshoot' about 90% of it (reconcile what can be, identify what can't) and tell them with fair confidence what their issues are- but this is because I've been through the wringer myself so many times, and because I maintain a good relationship with our clerks and pick their brain when able, as well as (with their consent) observe them fixing my pay issues so I can *understand* what the problem is/was, not just that 'was problem; now fixed (grunt)'. 

Many of the others can't. I think, frankly, that maybe a half day on the PLQ course would be well devoted to teaching aspiring MCpls how the pay system actually *works*, what's supposed to happen, and every step form me showing up and signing a pay sheet, to the deposit hitting my bank account. A lot of guys simply don't know about biweekly pay runs- or what that might mean for their pay on the weekend of the 12th,13th, and 14th if the pay run happens to be mid-day on the 15th for a 31st deposit. (I might have all that offset by a day or two). Many don't even know that class A pay will naturally lag by two weeks. Many don't know how pay advances can come back and bite them in the ass, now how to calculate other allowances and entitlements. I think it should be part of our professional development as NCOs to learn precisely how the system is supposed to work, at least as a primer. That way we can help our troops to figure things out (and so teach them- this knowledge *should* be firm at the private level; hell, include the same lectures on a reserve BMQ), reduce the burden on fin clerks in the basic trouble shooting stages- and also allow us to more knowledgeably represent our troops when things get snarled.

There is a lack of ownership of part time reservists, particularly when tasked out or on class C employment- or when going back to part time from Class C. Outstanding pay issues seldom seem to get a proper handover between transitioning clerks, or people filling in while Cpl Bloggins from the BOR goes on course. 

Some full time clerks on class B or on RSS either aren't aware, or forget what it's like on Class A- believing in good faith that we will get paid in a timely manner what we are owed. The 'this is a part time job; you shouldn't count on timely pay' is an enraging crock of the purest bullshit. I've never had any other job (I've had a couple) where part time pay was so poorly administered. I'm trusted not to commit fraud when I punch in at my retail job. Why can we not have a similar system in the reserves for Class A? I've heard fraud expressed as a concern- I was under the impression that that's where the court martial system fits into things. I see no reason why reserve pay ought not be digitized under the normal course of things, with paper pay sheets necessary only for unusual circumstances.

With the lack of that awareness comes in rare instances with a lack of empathy and a 'suck it up' attitude- particularly when pay problems are most likely experienced by Ptes and Cpls, and the clerks may be NCOs. Nothing throws me into greater anger generally than my troops getting screwed on pay, and particularly when there is any hint of dismissive or condescending attitude from clerks. I can't comprehend the lack of pride in some individuals that allows them to not stop-drop and immediately sort out a pay problem for a young troop relying on that money to scrape his month's rent while at school. Those most prone to pay issues often seem those most subject to them.

At the end of the day, it strikes me as a leadership issue, across a couple different parellel parts of the organization. If my troop signs a pay sheet and does't get paid, someone, somewhere has failed an there's a broken link in the chain. If another pay run later they still haven't been paid, then I as their leader have failed to get the right answer from the right person with the right authority, and someone else has failed in not addressing it from their end. And so on up the line as timelines extend. The fact that reserve pay is such a perennial bitch amongst us is indicative of a long term failure somewhere much higher up.

PLEASE NOTE- My unit is readily identifiable, and I'm NOT pointing fingers at any specific individuals, or anyone currently working there. These are generalizations from my own experiences and those of others dating back over a few years now. I've got nothing bad to say about my current clerks, or their handling of my pay. It's been a while since I've had a pay system that was caused by the reserves...




Actually, now that I've mulled it over, I'm gonna grab one of our clerks in the new year, buy them a beer, sit them down with a notepad and figure out how to develop that basic reserve pay training package, at least at a basic level, for my lads. Get it vetted by one of the clerks for accuracy, and deliver it to them. Not sure why I've not done that sooner. If I can at least have my troops knowing how things should work, what they should see, and what can go wrong, that'll make both their and my jobs easier...


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## PuckChaser (20 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Actually, now that I've mulled it over, I'm gonna grab one of our clerks in the new year, buy them a beer, sit them down with a notepad and figure out how to develop that basic reserve pay training package, at least at a basic level, for my lads. Get it vetted by one of the clerks for accuracy, and deliver it to them. Not sure why I've not done that sooner. If I can at least have my troops knowing how things should work, what they should see, and what can go wrong, that'll make both their and my jobs easier...



Probably the best idea I've heard in a long time. Sometimes in the military, you're your own best clerk. Or Career Manager. Or RQMS. It pays to know what you're talking about, so you don't ask for what you're not entitled, and you know how long it should take (and not make unreasonable time demands).


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## brihard (20 Dec 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Probably the best idea I've heard in a long time. Sometimes in the military, you're your own best clerk. Or Career Manager. Or RQMS. It pays to know what you're talking about, so you don't ask for what you're not entitled, and you know how long it should take (and not make unreasonable time demands).



Yup, agreed- and thank you!

Paging any clerks familiar with reserve pay: You, as an end recipients of our various and sundry complaints, what sort of basic reserve pay acumen would you like to see troops have, in some sort of order of priority? And for that matter, I happily welcome any unsolicited, knowledgeable advice on this.


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## FreeFloat (27 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I also got my leaf while on tour (substantive), and never did see the pay differential from Cpl(A) to Cpl(B) (Cpl-MCpl, for those who've not squinted at pay scales and pay stubs trying to make sense of it all). Over the course of the two and a half months on class C that I was appointed MCpl, I racked up a couple hundred bucks in pay differential, but I was never made MCpl in CCPS. Apparently because my contract was originally as a Cpl, it would require finding my CO from tour to get him to sign off on something or other to authorize a retroactive amendment of the contract to reflect the change in rank (I know, appointment...). Probably not a hope in hell of that happening.



Actually, I can answer to this for you.  I was the deployment support clerk for OP ATHENA back in the day, and occasionally had to do these calculations for Reservists.

If you were promoted WSE (While So Employed), that is, only while you were doing the job you were doing in theatre, then yes, the CO would've had to sign off on it and you would/should have been entitled to the MCpl pay for the duration of your tour - but ONLY while you were deployed on that position and that tour.  Upon redeployment (return from tour), you would have reverted to your substantive rank of Cpl.

Otherwise, if what you received was a home-unit-based regular substantive promotion/appointment to MCpl, it would most likely NOT affect your deployed rank or rate of pay.  When a Reserve member is screened for a specific tour position, there is an expected rank tied to that position.  The Reservist is selected based on that rank, and offered the deployment into that position at that rank.  So if you were filling a Cpl position, you were hired into the deployment as a Cpl, full stop.  If the position was Cpl/MCpl AND the deployment CO felt it appropriate, you could qualify for the WSE promotion as I detailed above.

I suspect your promotion was substantive, and therefore would have an effect on your pay the day immediately following your return from deployment, and not before.

Side note: your IPC, or incentive pay credit, during deployment will USUALLY differ from the one you enjoy during your regular Class A service.  Imagine you're typically a Cpl (4) who does the usual parade nights with the unit and a 2-3 month summer tasking each year.  Given a rank employment history like that, it's very likely you'd be offered the deployment at Cpl(0) or Cpl(1).  *This is not an error.* 

As you know, IPC (incentive pay categories) are offered annually on the "anniversary date" of your promotion.  In the Reserves, for simplicity, you gain your next IPC for each calendar year of good standing (i.e. you didn't have any ED&T or NES time).  However, in the Reg F, and likewise for Class C, the IPC is based on each calendar year of full time service.  Therefore, a clerk must consolidate the number of days of full-time (Class B) service since you got promoted to your current rank, and add to it your Class A days divided by 4 (that's right, you get credited 1/4 time for Class A).  So someone who's been on near-constant Class Bs will probably get offered a higher IPC than his buddy who's a "weekend warrior" who does the bare minimum parading.

....Of course, even if you lose a few IPCs, you're still getting 15% more pay...plus allowances....so it's nearly impossible for a Reservist to make LESS deploying than he would staying domestic.  :2c:


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## FreeFloat (27 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I was owed my entire LDA from 12 months of workup training. I giggled, jumped around a bit, and most definitely fist pumped at least twice. The clerk, meanwhile, checked a couple of our other guys- none nearly so large (out of a small sample), but most had some positive balance.
> 
> That money, I expect, would not have ever gotten to us had someone at our end not pulled the information to check. In the new year we need to check systematically all the guys who've been over or otherwise on Cl. C to confirm no outstanding balances remain in CCPS.



This is the reason that is is VITAL for members returning from tour to fully complete their AAG (Arrival Assistance Group) process.  Think of it as clearing back into your domestic unit and off tour.  It's not JUST about making sure you arrived with all your marbles and without any foreign diseases, there's a part of it where you are required to clear through the Reg F RELEASE CLERK.  Yes, the Release Clerk - his or her job is to finalize your claim and your CCPS account, to ensure that you are paid all monies owing to you from tour, that all pre-determined pay is stopped (freeing up your accumulated operational allowances for payment to your bank account) and to make sure you received anything you were entitled to (including leave you may not have had a chance to expend).  He or she will ensure that your CCPS account is balanced before turning you back over to your unit for RPSR to resume your pay from there.


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## clericalchronicals (29 Jan 2011)

I have removed my "rant", because it is a fact, no, no one is a moron, but far too often people are hitting the clerks on this one, it's never the members responsibility, and it's grown to be a tiring issue.

I sincerely rescind my conversation and shall return to my desk to and continue to be "just the clerk".

Cheers!


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## OldSolduer (29 Jan 2011)

There's no need for this rant. We're not all morons.


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## justmyalias (4 Feb 2011)

FreeFloat said:
			
		

> Actually, I can answer to this for you.  I was the deployment support clerk for OP ATHENA back in the day, and occasionally had to do these calculations for Reservists.
> 
> If ....you would/should have been entitled to the MCpl pay for the duration of your tour - but ONLY while you were deployed on that position and that tour.  Upon redeployment (return from tour), you would have reverted to your substantive rank of Cpl.
> 
> ...


Can RegF mbrs accept lower ranked posns as well?  For example: if they were as anxious to be deployed & this was the only possibility to fill a lower ranked slot?


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## ModlrMike (5 Feb 2011)

justmyalias said:
			
		

> Can RegF mbrs accept lower ranked posns as well?  For example: if they were as anxious to be deployed & this was the only possibility to fill a lower ranked slot?



Generally not.


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## CombatDoc (5 Feb 2011)

justmyalias said:
			
		

> Can RegF mbrs accept lower ranked posns as well?  For example: if they were as anxious to be deployed & this was the only possibility to fill a lower ranked slot?


Although this isn't common, it can happen.  Generally it is the Chain of Command that determines that they will fill a position with a candidate of a higher rank, and who have to sell the reasons why to CEFCOM/higher HQ.  For instance, they may have  a requirement for a bilingual supply tech at the Sgt rank, but the only one that they can find with the suitable qualifications is a WO.  Other options include creating offsets on the TO&E i.e. giving up one type of MOSID for another MOSID.  The member doesn't generally get to go to the CoC and say "I'm a WO and I'm willing to fill a Sgt posn".


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## CountDC (9 Feb 2011)

but a WO can go and do exactly that and then if the CoC want to they can nominate him/her.  Had it happen when I was the tasking clerk, most times the answer was no but sometimes it did go through (various ranks of course, the WO/Sgt one is just example). Same with some tasking were specified for reg f but we could only find a p res so had to ask for approval, sometimes yes sometimes the task was transferred to another command. 

Never hurts to ask if there is a tasking you would like to fill.


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