# John Glenn vs Howard Metzenbaum



## MAJOR_Baker (4 Feb 2004)

I was sent the following e-mail, I am not sure how often a debate like this happens in Canada, but I think it should happen more often in America!

   





> JOHN GLENN ON THE SENATE FLOOR >Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13:37 -0800
> 
> Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they do for a living.
> 
> ...


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Feb 2004)

Ouch.... I know we have quite a few here in Canada that believe the CF does not really work.


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## Padraig OCinnead (4 Feb 2004)

I never did understand the attitude behind these folks who have the gall to dismiss as unimportant the very fellow citizens who feel honoured to serve their country. It‘s one thing to disagree with someone but entirely a different matter to ignore that the very person like Glenn is the reason why he has the freedom to complain without getting it in the neck.

My country (and the USA) owes so very much to soldiers/sailors/airmen. These people were so selfless and appreciative of their country that they choose to dedicate everything to the military to uphold these very notions of freedom. I‘ve been in too long that I‘ve forgotten what it‘s like to be a civie who could dare say something like what Metzenbaum said.

Thanks for that post S_Baker, it‘s nice to hear that a genuine hero like Glenn is in a position to cuff this cretin in the head for being so self-centered.


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## brin11 (4 Feb 2004)

I think its bad enough when people don‘t think that the military is a REAL job.  Unfortunately, in Canada, it goes a step further where many people don‘t even think your non-real job is even required.


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## Infanteer (4 Feb 2004)

At first it was I figured it to be the usual e-rumors.  But it is true...and the good thing about that speech is that it propelled John Glenn to victory in the Senatorial race.  Mind you, this debate took place right after Vietnam, so the military wasn‘t too popular in mainstream America.

 http://www.snopes.com/quotes/glenn.htm


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## Enzo (8 Feb 2004)

Shortly before leaving for the CF, guy at a party hears I‘m going into the Infantry. Asks me with a smirk why I‘ve chosen to waste my life? How did I feel about learning to kill woman and children? This guy attended a local university and was considered to be a intelligent and fair person.

Didn‘t seem that way to me. I resisted my urge to prove his comments as accurate by holding back. But still, what‘s wrong with people?


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## George Wallace (8 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by S_Baker:
> [qb] Infanteer,
> 
> normally I take those e-mails with a grain of salt, however this one came from our Company Commander. [/qb]


This link to snopes.com provides some info:

 http://www.snopes.com/quotes/glenn.htm 


GW


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## Spr.Earl (9 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by George Wallace:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


George thank‘s for the link,that link say‘s it all for those of who have kept the faith for those who have gone before us.
We who are still serving will still keep the faith.


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## John Nayduk (9 Feb 2004)

Enzo

It's a product of the times we live in. My parents' generation lived through the Depression and fought World War 2.  They built the nation we live in.  They gave everything to their children so that we wouldn't have to live through what they did.  It's a parent's desire to give their kids what it takes to make their lives better.  Unfortunately, instead of these generations stopping to say thank you, we ask for more because we're used to getting it.  We have lost the capacity to say thank you and mean it.  We don't appreciate the things that we given us because we didn't have to work for them, to fight for them.  There is no ideal that says that for us all to win and make a great country even better that we as a whole and individually must make sacrifices.  Why should we, we have it all now.  People like us are the exception, not the rule any more because society doesn't believe that there is anything worth fighting for because they can buy it.  The idea that places like pre-Saddam Iraq, or the Balkans really exist any where other than on T.V., or if they de exist some where, it's a long way from here and so it doesn't matter.  People like us who have been to these places and come home know what the rest of them will never know.  That there are things, seemingly intangible things, ideas and ideals, that are worth fighting, and if need be, dying for.  Most people don't have the capacity or ability to think in those terms. Our last prime minister said all militaries do is take, take, take but what do they ever give back?  With that kind of attitude from the highest office in the land, how can we be surprised when some guy in a local bar holds the same attitude?  If you have school age kids, take a look at what they are taught in history class.  Ask your kids or their friends about Vimy Ridge or Dieppe or about the Somme, D Day or the Korean War.  We don't teach these things in our schools any more.  All these names mean nothing today and the only time we hear them is around November 11.  **** in many provinces it isn't even a holiday.  We get a holiday for the labour movement but not one for the people who guaranteed that we could have a labour movement.  I guess we should be happy that our society breeds people like the intelligent and fair university guy because it means that things aren't' t too bad, or are they?
One more thing to remember about your intelligent and fair person, education does not equal intelligence.


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## Slim (19 Feb 2004)

I‘d like to e-mail that speech to every Canadian politician I could find...The only problem is that you can lead a horse to water...


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Nov 2004)

Got this by email today. I'll say right off the hop, I didn't verify John Glenn's conversation. Maybe someone can tell us if it's true or an urban legend. The rest, well it's interesting to say the least, but in kind of an apple and oranges way. Just found it pretty interesting is all. Text follows:

Things that make you think a little........

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of
January.....

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of
January.

That is just one American City, about as deadly as the entire war torn Country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following.

FDR...led the US into World War II.
Germany never attacked the US: Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman...finished that war and started one in Korea.
North Korea never attacked the US.
From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy...started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.
Vietnam never attacked the US.

Johnson...turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton...went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent.
Bosnia never attacked the US.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan
and did nothing. Osama has attacked the US on multiple occasions.

In the two years since terrorists attacked the US, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida,
put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own
people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation. We've been
Looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records. It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division! and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police
after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick. It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!

The Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB! The Military morale is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.

Wait, there's more.......................

   JOHN GLENN ON THE SENATE FLOOR
   Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:13

Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they
do for a living.

This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbaum.

Is worth reading.

Not only is it a pretty impressive impromptu speech, but it's also a
good example of one man's explanation of why men and women in the
armed services do what they do for a living.

This IS a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never
served think of the military.

Senator Metzenbaum to Senator Glenn: "How can you run for Senate when
you've never held a real job?"

Senator Glenn: "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps. I served through two wars. I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in the space program. It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the line. It was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the daily cash receipts to the bank. I ask you to go with me ... as I went the other day... to a veteran's hospital and look those men - with their mangled bodies â â€œ in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a job! You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee... and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their DADS didn't hold a job. You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National Cemetery, where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember, and you watch those waving flags. You stand there, and you think about this nation, and you tell ME that those people didn't have a job? I'll tell you, Howard Metzenbaum; you should be on your knees every day of your life thanking God that there were some men - SOME MEN - who held REAL jobs. And they required a dedication to a purpose - and a love of country and a dedication to duty -that was more important than life itself. And their self-sacrifice is what made this country possible. I HAVE held a job, Howard! What about you?"

For those who don't remember - During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was
an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA.
Now he is a Senator!

If you can read this, thank a teacher.... If you are reading it in
English, thank a Veteran.


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## Lance Wiebe (7 Nov 2004)

;D

Love it!


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## JBP (7 Nov 2004)

Wow, that entire post was very powerful. That "speech" was very compelling. Reminds me of what to say next time someone askes me if I'm mentally disabled for wanting to join the Canadian Armed Forces. Some people think we're all nuts as you folks probably know. They don't know anything... 

Vive la Canada!


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## Crazy_Eyes (7 Nov 2004)

Wow, alot of the points there really make you think, and that speech was amazing!


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## bubba (7 Nov 2004)

i like it


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## clasper (7 Nov 2004)

The exchange between John Glenn and Metzenbaum smells like an urban legend to me (Metzenbaum couldn't be that stupid, could he?), but it's true according to snopes (although the context is a little different than previously presented).

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/glenn.htm


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## armyrules (11 Nov 2004)

That really made me stop and think nice post


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## vangemeren (13 Nov 2004)

I personally liked the John Glen story. Recceguy you are correct that it is like comparing apples and oranges...


> There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of
> January.....
> 
> In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of
> ...



I assume that most of the murders in Detroit that month were civillians. If you were to compare the ammount of civilians killed in January, it would probably number in the hundreds. (I can not find hard numbers that are mostly unbiased.) I am not saying that the Iraqis were murdered, it is just that the e-mailer making the point is comparing civilians in America to Combat troops in Iraq.



> Germany never attacked the US: Japan did.



"treaties between Germany, Italy, and Japan in the period from 1936 to 1940 brought into being the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis." 

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761563737/World_War_II.html#s1

This means that at the time Germany and Japan were allies, so just because America was not attacked directly by Germany does not mean that Germany had not pervoked the U.S.



> North Korea never attacked the US



After WW2, Korea was partioned between the Americans (South Korea) and the Soviets (North Korera). Until 1949 America had troops in South Korea and had given aid to the South Koreans. When South Korea was invaded, The U.S came in to support their ally.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559607/Korean_War.html



> Vietnam never attacked the US.



The United States continued implementing the Truman Doctrine, Intervening when there was a threat of the spread of communism to South Vietnam (yes an over simplification, the history is prety complicated) who was considered an ally.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761552648_6/Vietnam.html#p170



> Bosnia never attacked the US.



It would take me too long to explain why this is taken out of context.



> In the two years since terrorists attacked the US, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida,
> put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot...



For Libya, Bush didn't put inspectors in the IAEA did. The world did not realize how far Lybia was in developing nukes. Other than the sanctions, the Americans had not paid much attention to Libya.
Iran, What did Bush do? I mean it was the Europeans that recently signed an agreement with Iran.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-11-06-iran-nukes_x.htm

North Korea: On January 10, 2004, "...unofficial US team visits what the North calls its "nuclear deterrent" facility at Yongbyon." These were not permanet inspectors, the permanet inspectors got kicked out in 2002.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2604437.stm



> ...and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own
> people.



I don't disagree with this point, the world is better without him, but the troops used to get rid of  Saddam should have been used to fin Bin Laden, who is still free after 3 years and making tapes.



> It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation. We've been
> Looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records. It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division! and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police
> after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick. It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!



I don't know what this person's definition of taken is. If they meant when Bush went on the Aircraft Carrier and declared "Mission Accomplished", then yes it did take less time. If the person meant popular resistance, then it is still ongoing. Also the way the person is talking it sounds like there was evidence of weapons. It only took them a short time to realize that they were wrong.



> The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.


I think the person who wrote the e-mail is too.

This analysis on the e-mail is just my opinion, I would like to see what others think.
P.s for some reason the spell check was not working for me. I know I can not spell


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## Big M (28 Nov 2004)

Hi,

I was doing research on this post and googled here.  If you are interested, there is an urban legend page on the John Glenn part.
www.snopes.com/quotes/glenn.htm

The speech was carefully rehearsed from the *1974* Primary race that Glenn won against Metzenbaum.

This email is one of several mass mailed before the recent election to "prove" the moral superiority of the Republican Party.

I will leave it to you to decide how the email "proves" that.

Marv


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## Big M (28 Nov 2004)

I forgot to mention that it is an interesting post largely because John Glenn is a Democrat, but if you ask people on the street which party he belongs to after they read the email, the majority say Republican.  Forgot to clear that up in the first post.  

Marv


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## TCBF (24 May 2005)

" WHAT  SENATOR JOHN GLENN  SAID ABOUT THE IRAQI WAR...                   
                                                                            
                                                                            
    There  were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during January....   In  
    the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. 
    That's just one  American city, about as deadly as the entire war torn  
    country of  Iraq.                                                       
                                                                            
    When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state   
    the following facts.                                                    
                                                                            
    FDR led  us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.    
    From  1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per     
    year.                                                                   
                                                                            
    Truman finished that war and started one in Korea,  North Korea never   
    attacked us.  From  1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of    
    18,334 per year.                                                        
                                                                            
    John  F.  Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.  Vietnam never  
    attacked us.                                                            
                                                                            
    Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire.  From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives   
    were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.                                
                                                                            
    Clinton:                                                                
    Went  to war in Bosnia without UN consent.  Bosnia never attacked us.   
    He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan 
    and did nothing.  Osama has attacked the US on multiple occasions.      
                                                                            
    In  the years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has:          
    - Liberated two countries,                                              
    - crushed the Taliban,                                                  
    - crippled al-Qaida,                                                    
    - put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing  
    a shot,                                                                 
    - removed from power and eventually captured a murdering tyrant who     
    slaughtered 300,000 of his own people, and                              
    - enabled the people of two previously down trodden countries to elect  
    their own representatives.                                              
                                                                            
                                                                            
    But wait there's more.......................                            
                                                                            
    JOHN  GLENN ON THE SENATE FLOOR Date: Mon, 26 Jan 200411:13             
    Some people  still don't understand why military personnel do what they 
    do for  a living.  This exchange between Senators John Glenn and        
    Senator Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading.  Not only is it a  pretty   
    impressive impromptu speech, but it's also a good example  of one man's 
    explanation of why men and women in the armed  services do what they do 
    for a living.  This is a typical, though sad, example of what some who  
    have never served think of the military.                                
                                                                            
    Senator Metzenbaum to Senator  Glenn:  "How can you run for Senate when 
    you've never held a  real job?"                                         
                                                                            
    Senator  Glenn: "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps.   
    I  served through two wars.  I flew 149 missions.  My plane  was hit by 
    anti-aircraft fire on 12 different occasions.  I  was in the space      
    program.   It  wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the       
    line.  It  was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take    
    the daily cash receipts to the bank.                                    
                                                                            
    I ask you to go with me as I went the other day...  to a veteran's      
    hospital  and look those men - with their mangled bodies -in the eye,   
    and  tell THEM they didn't hold a job!  You go with me to the Space     
    Program at NASA and go, as I have gone, to the widows and  Orphans of   
    Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger Chaffee...  and  you look those kids in 
    the eye and tell them that their DADS  didn't hold a job.               
                                                                 
    You  go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in Arlington National     
    Cemetery,  where I have more friends buried than I'd like to remember,  
    and  you watch those waving flags.                                      
                                                                            
    You  stand there, and you think about this nation, and you tell ME that 
    those people didn't have a job?  I'll tell you, Howard  Metzenbaum; you 
    should be on your knees every day of your life  thanking God that there 
    were some men - SOME MEN - who held REAL  jobs.  And they required a    
    dedication to a purpose - and a  love of country and a dedication to    
    duty - that was more important  than life itself.  And their            
    self-sacrifice is what made this  country possible.                     
                                                                            
    I  HAVE held a job, Howard!  What about you?"                           
                                                                            
    For  those who don't remember - During W.W.II, Howard Metzenbaum was an 
    attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA.                   
                                                                            
    Now  he's a Senator! "


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## Michael OLeary (24 May 2005)

Urban Legends and Folklore

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_glenn_metzenbaum.htm



> . . . . a May 3, 1974 debate with Metzenbaum at the Cleveland City Club.
> 
> Here, according to political columnist Mark Shields, is what Glenn actually said in that debate (other accounts differ only slightly):
> 
> ...


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## TCBF (24 May 2005)

Aha!  Further notes below from 'urbanlegends':

"The text in the 2004 variant criticizing Democrats for not supporting President Bush's Iraq War was appended several years after this email flier began circulating and has nothing to do with John Glenn's 1974 remarks. 

As to the charge, also appended in a later variant, that Howard Metzenbaum worked as an attorney for the Communist Party during World War II, I have found no evidence so far to substantiate it."


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## Britney Spears (26 May 2005)

> FDR led  us into World War II. Germany never attacked us



This is incorrect. Germany declared war on the US immediately after Pearl Harbour.



> He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan
> and did nothing.



This is an extremely questionable accusation at best. Richard Clark, in his book _Against all Enemies, Inside America's War on Terror_ thoroughly discredits this allegation. I personally dismiss it as another groundless pubbie neo-con attack on President Clinton, who they have a seemingly irrational hatred for.


I hope TCBF never get any emails from Nigeria, selling penis enlargement pills.... ;D


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## Infanteer (26 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> I personally dismiss it as another groundless pubbie neo-con attack on President Clinton, who they have a seemingly irrational hatred for.



Funny it seems to go both ways down there- irrational hatred for Bill Clinton; irrational hatred for George W Bush.


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## FredDaHead (26 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> This is incorrect. Germany declared war on the US immediately after Pearl Harbour.



How is it incorrect? It said "attacked" not "declared war on," hence it is right, at least technically. And I don't think Germany would (or could) have done much against the US for much of the war. (Assuming it had gone the original 39-45 and not longer, which is a whole new ballgame) Other than sinking the odd ship, Germany just didn't have the power to act against the US. Japan did. Of course, I'll be able to discuss that further after some history/politics classes in university.

You're correct in saying the US had a "reason" to go after Germany though, but I do believe saying Germany never attacked the US is, at least technically, correct.



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Funny it seems to go both ways down there- irrational hatred for Bill Clinton; irrational hatred for George W Bush.



Don't you know? If you hate Bush you're humane and a good, smart person... If you hate Clinton you're an idiotic redneck warmonger.

Anyways, time to put the whiskey back on the shelf...


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## Britney Spears (26 May 2005)

> How is it incorrect? It said "attacked" not "declared war on," hence it is right, at least technically. And I don't think Germany would (or could) have done much against the US for much of the war. (Assuming it had gone the original 39-45 and not longer, which is a whole new ballgame) Other than sinking the odd ship, Germany just didn't have the power to act against the US. Japan did. Of course, I'll be able to discuss that further after some history/politics classes in university.
> 
> You're correct in saying the US had a "reason" to go after Germany though, but I do believe saying Germany never attacked the US is, at least technically, correct.



"Sinking the odd ship" sounds like an attack to me, and the U-Boats did a lot more than sink the "odd" ship, before there was any attack on Germany by the US. 

I didn't have to go to University to know that. :



> Don't you know? If you hate Bush you're humane and a good, smart person... If you hate Clinton you're an idiotic redneck warmonger.





> Funny it seems to go both ways down there- irrational hatred for Bill Clinton; irrational hatred for George W Bush.



Well it's not my fault Bush is a redneck war monger, is it? If Bush were half as intelligent or worldly as Clinton was, we wouldn't be in this pickel. I didn't need to go to university to know that either. Most of the world seems to agree with me too. In fact, I hate Bush so much that I'd rather not have to argue about it on every other thread here.


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## TCBF (26 May 2005)

" In fact, I hate Bush so much that I'd rather not have to argue about it on every other thread here.'

You know, at first, I didn't think you were actually Britney Spears, the singer, but with a post like that, I am beginning to re-assess my original assessment of who you are.

'Hate' does not become us, and will ultimately Albatross ( can I use Albatross as a verb?) any good points we  eventually wish to make.

"I hope TCBF never get any emails from Nigeria, selling penis enlargement pills.... "   ;D

I did.  Size didn't change.  Colour did, though.  My wife was not amused. ;D


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## Britney Spears (26 May 2005)

OK, well I suppose I don't HATE him personally (never met him, really) and I'm sure he's a great cook and a demon in the sack or has some other redeeming qualities, but I do virulently disagree with the dishonest, reactionary and self serving policies of his goverment. Suppose I expanded my general contempt to include Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfield as well?


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## TCBF (26 May 2005)

As long as we have some balance and add Bill Clinton and his attack dog Janet Reno.  After all, they spent more money targeting Bill Gates than they did going after Osama Bin Laden, right?


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## Infanteer (26 May 2005)

MWUHAHAHAHA - I knew I could stew this up!!!  :evil:


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## Pencil Tech (1 Jun 2005)

First of all, I love you Britney Spears. Second, just a reminder to all the right-wingers around here that John Glenn is a Democrat - and a pretty liberal one too.


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## TCBF (1 Jun 2005)

True.  The difference is, John Glenn won his leadership spurs in the military.  A lot of the hardcore borderline traitorous Dems in the USA actually  HATE the US military and do much to undermine it.  Metzenbaum did not want a John Glenn with his military record as competition for some of the pinkos who sat out WW2 and Korea - like Mezenbaum - during a future Democratic convention.  

That conversation was Dem vs Dem.  They have no NDP, no LPC, the Pinkos have to exist in a Democratic Party or perish.

Tom


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## Britney Spears (1 Jun 2005)

> That conversation was Dem vs Dem.  They have no NDP, no LPC, the Pinkos have to exist in a Democratic Party or perish.



It would rather misleading to try and equate the US political spectrum with the Canadian one.....


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## TCBF (3 Jun 2005)

If you expand on that a bit, I may agree with you somewhat, though I'm not quite at that point yet... ;D


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