# Ignorance of civvies...



## Recon_Guardsman (16 Apr 2006)

Hey everyone, its my first post here so bear with me please. I just wanted to mention an even that happened the other day and see what kind of opinions I get from you. I was in a discussion in my world issues class, and we were covering the topic of child soldiers. The teacher was saying that anyone in the military under 18 is a child soldier, and we all came to the sensible conclusion that the use of child soldiers is wrong because the children are not mature enough for it... that it causes problems in their development and so on (this after watching a documentary of kids in Africa who had been used as child soldiers and now have PTSD). Well, the class then came to the understanding that because im not 18 (im a 17 year old reservist in Toronto), I am not mature enough to be a soldier. I am also a 'pawn' (their exact word) in the government's plans. 

How does everyone feel about people younger than 18 being in the CF in general? Any good stories of civvies being totally ignorant?


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## Kirkhill (16 Apr 2006)

Recon_guardsman:

The Queen and her government both consider you old enough to be a soldier.  I am betting that the guys that signed you up and serve alongside you consider you old enough to be a soldier.

Question:

If you are insufficiently mature to make a decision as to whether you should be a soldier, what makes your classmates (presumably of the same age) qualified to decide you shouldn't be a soldier?


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## monika (16 Apr 2006)

Didn't you need your parent's permission to join the reserves? In any case, I think there is a *huge* difference between living in a free society and *choosing* to enlist at 17 and being 12 and being forced into fighting

Just to be a pain in the arse, you could always point out that if you're not mature enough fort soldiering, they're not old enough for sex.


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## Kendrick (16 Apr 2006)

Legal age of sexual consent is what, 14?  I guess that's better for them.


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## Inspir (16 Apr 2006)

Recon_Guardsman said:
			
		

> How does everyone feel about people younger than 18 being in the CF in general? Any good stories of civvies being totally ignorant?



I remember an issue similar to this on the news about raising Alberta's legal drinking age to 21. 

As my local MLA said:
*"if the young men and women of our nation can fight a war at only 17 then I ask the government why they don't lower the drinking age limit to that"*

Well put I thought  ;D


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## pbi (16 Apr 2006)

TMM said:
			
		

> Didn't you need your parent's permission to join the reserves? In any case, I think there is a *huge* difference between living in a free society and *choosing* to enlist at 17 and being 12 and being forced into fighting



I think this sums it up very well. The child soldiers that we talk about are forced into service, treated like slaves, and generally have no say over their own affairs. They cannot voluntarily leave the service they are in.

A 17 year old Canadian reservist is a completely different case. You cannot join without your parents' permission, you will not be required to serve (short of a general mobilization which has not happened in Canada since WWII), you cannot even be forced to attend training at your Res unit, and you can leave pretty well any time you feel like it. You will not go overseas until well after your 18th birthday, since it would take at least that long in the Res for you to reach a training level at which a right-minded CO would permit you to go overseas.

Like many students (and, unfortunately, like many of their very young and very inexperienced teachers) your peers are engaging in the kind of baseless, "black and white" thinking that ignores the facts and details that make up the real world. Good luck in fighting the good fight: all of us here at Army.ca are in support.

Cheers


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## Recon_Guardsman (16 Apr 2006)

Thanks for the help boys (meant unisexually), ill bring those topics up next time the issue comes up. That drinking age thing has always bothered me.... you can drive at 16, have sex at 14, vote at 18, but join the army at 16 as well?

In any case, I dont know about all of you, but I find that the training we do is in itself very maturing. We all go in knowing that weapons are there to kill people, but for me at least, it really clicked once I started putting rounds downrange. Likewise with the gas hut, or grenades, or getting bumped at 2 am, etc.


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## GO!!! (16 Apr 2006)

Good points brought up here, I would also add;

-A significant number of troops under the age of 18 volunteered to fight for Canada in two world wars - with positive effect (we won) was the government of the day "using them"?

-Finally, state, that YOU are one of the "child" soldiers that he/she finds so revolting, and that you are simultaneously able to think enough for this class, and then turn into a mindless, homicidal pawn of the government on Saturday! The silence will be deafening.

I had this identical argument out in an international relations class a few years ago. The prof called me a liar and demanded to see my military ID. I showed it to him, and then submitted to the class that I was old enough to have sex with whomever I please, smoke, consume alcohol, operate a motor vehicle, be employed, pay taxes, and attend university - but not to defend my country. 

I was kicked out, but the dean gave me a mark of "WD".

Also, keep in mind that many University Profs (especially in the Social Sciences and Arts) inhabit a world of academia, co - eds and cabarets. None of the decisions they make on a daily basis really have any bearing on the real world, so they are free to make ridiculous assertations - because their actions have no consequences. This is a fundamental tenet of higher learning, the unhindered development of ideas, but just get your ducks in a row before you argue your case in class. I have yet to see a prof "take it well" when one of his declarations is picked apart by a student.


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## Hot Lips (16 Apr 2006)

Recon_Guardsman,

Uni means one???? 
Anyway, I have a girlfriend who went Reg Force @ 17 out of highschool.  
She required her parents signature to do so.  She has been in 17 years and wouldn't change a thing she has done for the world.
Maturity is not a number...I know some 40 year old men that have not attained the status of mature yet (I am sure there are women as well).
I wish you well...I was out on my own @ 17 and it didn't do me a bit of harm...perhaps that is why I am so independent today.
I wish I had taken the opportunity @ 17 to become a member of the CF   

HL


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## TangoTwoBravo (16 Apr 2006)

While my own experiences were not as extreme as GO's, I can vouch for that type of thinking at university.  GO has the right of it as for the course of action.  Get your ducks in a row and defend your vital ground.  Just don't think you'll change the prof's mind.  You might, however, get some students to think a little if you yourself remain calm and don't get emotional.

Cheers,

2B


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## Jarnhamar (16 Apr 2006)

Fuck em if they can't take a joke 

I wouldn't even bother arguing to your class mates or teachers.  It's a waste of time.  They have thei remind set and not much you can do will change that.
15 year olds fought in ww1 & 2 helping win the war so future students can choose what they learn in school bla bla bla. They don't care 
They are always going to come up with some counter argument or point and even there is no way in hell they can argue one of your sound and intelligent points, they will find a way.

Think PBI is right on the money. There is a vast difference between children forced into combat in africa and a 17 year old canadian citizen volenteering for the reserves. If someone is trying to connect the two then they are doing the starndard university retarded arguing some silly semantics thing.

Let them live in their own little world. Take a book to class and read it instead. When the time comes defend your little world and theirs.


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## orange.paint (16 Apr 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> I A 17 year old Canadian reservist is a completely different case. You cannot join without your parents' permission, you will not be required to serve (short of a general mobilization which has not happened in Canada since WWII), you cannot even be forced to attend training at your Res unit, and you can leave pretty well any time you feel like it. You will not go overseas until well after your 18th birthday, since it would take at least that long in the Res for you to reach a training level at which a right-minded CO would permit you to go overseas.



What about reg force PBI? I distinctly remember being in petawawa for my 18th birthday ;D


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## probum non poenitet (16 Apr 2006)

It never hurts to state your truth, calmly and clearly.
Even if it doesn't look like it's sinking in, it may actually be.

Some people (espicailly teenagers) will be self-conscious about publicly defending your argument. 

For others, months and maybe years down the road, they will remember your example and come to understand your way of thinking ... or at least partly so. You will probably never know.

To more pracitcal matters: Tell your 17 year-old friends to take care of their knees and start buying mutual funds now!


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## Korus (16 Apr 2006)

But that's just the way it is.. You'll encounter people who are for or against the army wherever you go.. Those against it will use anything to try and ridicule the army and it's members, such as you being only 17 years old.

As for Uni's being full of left wing nutcases, I took a more 'right winged' program in Uni (Engineering), so I didn't catch quite as much flack on that side of campus as I did when I was on the artsy side of campus.. Though there were defiantly still some opinionated idiots. However, one of my professors was probably one of the most supportive people I knew when I volunteered to deploy to Afghanistan right after graduation


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## Recon_Guardsman (17 Apr 2006)

I think in many respects im lucky in that. Three teachers at the school are officers, a lot of the staff and the principal are very supportive. It even has an RMC-ish military program. But the civvie students who go there are some of the worst iv seen. For the most part, they live in a total bubble, where all that matters is marks and getting stoned as often as possible. Ah well. 

Anyone have any 'interesting' arguments posed to them about the CF?


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## blacktriangle (17 Apr 2006)

"It even has an RMC-ish military program. But the civvie students who go there are some of the worst iv seen. For the most part, they live in a total bubble, where all that matters is marks and getting stoned as often as possible."

It isn't St. Andrews, is it?  ;D


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## Gunnerlove (17 Apr 2006)

What is wrong with drawing a line in the sand and saying we will not deploy anyone younger than 18?
As for joining and training at 16 with parental consent I do not see a problem.


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## William Webb Ellis (17 Apr 2006)

I was 17 when I joined and when I came home with the paperwork my dad asked "what took so long"....I guess that's what national service will do to you..

I faced the same type of "discussion" with fellow student's when at school.   However, I in hindsight I should have seen it coming from a "Peace and Conflict Resolution Class". 

All you can do is deal/discuss it with those who are actually interested in learning and expanding their mind (other than on weekends, not that there's anything wrong with that).  The other, F*CK EM......

If they are interested in truly learning they will listen to you points, consider them and then decide if they will adjust their opinion. 

Cheers


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## Centurian1985 (17 Apr 2006)

As usual, liberal intellectuals choose to twist teh meaning of words to suit their own ends.

A 'child soldier', as defined by their popular use in African and Asian countries, is a youth under the age of 16 (worldwide standard of youth, not the legal definition in a western country!), was forcibly inducted into a military force to act as bearer, prositute, or cannon fodder.   

This does not happen in Canada. Our youth have free choice over whether they wish to join the military AND must gain consent of their parent/guardian. 

(No, I wont get into an argument over national level propoganda and its glorification of the military, etc. etc.; the movies that youth watch and books on war that they read and computer games they play have much more impact than any government message). 

Those who do not understand the difference are misinformed. Those who deliberately confuse the difference are following their own agendas.


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## pbi (17 Apr 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> What about reg force PBI? I distinctly remember being in petawawa for my 18th birthday ;D



You are right, although these days I believe most recruits into the RegF are considerably older than 18. But, that's not really Recon Guardsman's situation, and that's what I was trying to respond to.

Cheers


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## Trogdor (17 Apr 2006)

Recon_Guardsman

I too was in a similar situation with a similarly ignorant world issues class.  I joined the reserves when I was 16 and therefore to them was a child soldier.  I made it perfectly clear to them that I could not be sent overseas in my current status and that I made the choice to join, unlike those kids in africa who are forced into guerilla wars and prostitution.  However, the teacher being so left wing, wouldn't hear it.  So I told him where he could stick it or something to that effect.  In any event I acheived a higher than 90 in that class and mawked the idiot kids who thought they would get good marks if they agreed with the teacher all the time.

In any case yes there are some pretty ignorant people out there, civies and soldiers alike.  Best thing is to not give them a second thought and move on to something worthwhile.

Have a better one.

Oh and seeing as you use the handle guardsman, are you part of the Grens, the Horse or my favourite (and current unit) the Foot Guards?


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## 1feral1 (17 Apr 2006)

To sum it up, for as long as there has been soldiers, there has infact been ignorant civvies.

Cheers,

WEs


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## Gunner (17 Apr 2006)

http://www.unicef.org/emerg/index_childsoldiers.html



> *Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict (2000)*
> The protocol sets 18 as the minimum age for direct participation in hostilities, for recruitment into armed groups, and for compulsory recruitment by governments. States may accept volunteers from the age of 16 but must deposit a binding declaration at the time of ratification or accession, setting out their minimum voluntary recruitment age and outlining certain safeguards for such recruitment.



Canada will not send anyone under the age of 18 on international, nor I believe, domestic operations.


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## Recon_Guardsman (18 Apr 2006)

Those are some good points. The problem overall is that everyone is at a different maturity level, just like someone mentioned earlier. Some people are much more mature than others. Some 16 year olds are vastly more mature than others, and even more so than some adults that im sure we've all seen. And yeah, we can all try to ignore the civvies who don't want to listen, but sometimes it just gets to you. Ah well, educate who you can and ignore who you cant I guess is the lesson here. 

Anyone have anything interesting to share on all the dumb things civvies can say to us when we're in uniform? I was on ex the other day, and got asked by a civvie 'what organization are you from?' I remember one time too I was on the subway, in full uniform with my vest, small pack, and helmet (on my vest), and someone asked me if im in the army. No, im a f****** retard, I like to dress up like this.

And to Wolfe, im a Horse Guard.


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## zipperhead_cop (18 Apr 2006)

When I was a GGHG cadet, I was riding the TTC in my dress uniform, coming back from a parade.  A girl asked me "do your feet look like that under your boots", then got off the bus, laughing with her friends.  I didn't get it, until I looked at how semi-clown boot-ish they looked (size 13 on, at the time, bamboo reeds).  I always remember that every time I put parade boots on now.


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## George Wallace (18 Apr 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> When I was a GGHG cadet, I was riding the TTC in my dress uniform, coming back from a parade.  A girl asked me "do your feet look like that under your boots", then got off the bus, laughing with her friends.  I didn't get it, until I looked at how semi-clown boot-ish they looked (size 13 on, at the time, bamboo reeds).  I always remember that every time I put parade boots on now.


 ;D   Well....You know what Sue Johannessen would tell you about 'big feet'.    ;D


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## zipperhead_cop (18 Apr 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ;D   Well....You know what Sue Johannessen would tell you about 'big feet'.    ;D



For me, probably "big socks"


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## FormerHorseGuard (18 Apr 2006)

welcome to a fine regiment Guardsman, i was a member of the unit back in the 90s and believe it or not there were same problems back then.  you made a choice and it was your choice, no one but you will be able to understand the reasons why  you made the choice and a few here will understand and some have made it for the same kind of reasons. But out in the world of "long haired, dope smoking, friends of jesus" <fav quote from a former RSM> world no one will understand your choice.
for better or worse you decided to take a step to grow and to make something different of yourself, good luck with it and forget what the rest of the world tells you about being wrong or how bad of a choice you made, at least you made a choice.


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## Wookilar (18 Apr 2006)

As for "dumb" things civy's say (I like to call them uneducated, or even better, unaware of the facts. Hurts their feelings less), how about my responses to them (you can guess what the questions were):

"Yes, I pay taxes. Just the same as you." (Don't tell them about the tours now, they'll just get confused).

"No, I dress like this everyday, not just halloween." (he was being serious)

"Yes, we have machine-guns, but they are kept at work. We are not allowed to take them home."

"No, I've never used a rocket-launcher to hunt moose with. I don't think it would work very well."

"No, (sigh) I have never killed anyone and I hope I never have to......Yes, I think I can, if I have to." (that one usually gets them)

"I have delivered water, food, shelter, wood, clothes and safety to those in need. Sometimes, I've even done it in foreign countries." (takes them a second to catch up with that one)

"Last summer, I put out fires, delivered food to refugees, helped save a few lives and rescued two puppies. All inside Canada's borders. I got two weeks off at the end of August. That was nice."

Now, as for truly dumb questions, you'd have to ask ninerdomestic. She gets far more than I. I'll mention it to her and see if she can remember any.


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## Journeyman (18 Apr 2006)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Canada will not send anyone under the age of 18 on international, nor I believe, domestic operations.



Times change, so I can't confirm current policies, but doing workups for SFOR Roto 1 ('96-97), we had one augmentee who was 17 during predeployment training. He went with us to do the Winnipeg Floods (DomOps, but terrific workup training). 

He was subsequently on one of the last in-theatre flights because he *had* to wait for his 18th birthday. I don't know who set that policy, but it was "the rule" way back when.


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## dapaterson (18 Apr 2006)

It's right in the National Defence Act that no one below the age of 18 may deploy overseas (or, arguably, in a Dom Ops situation where there is possibility of hostilities):

Limitation on Deployment
Persons under eighteen
 34. A person who is under the age of eighteen years may not be deployed by the Canadian Forces to a theatre of hostilities.

(http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/N-5/text.html)


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## csura2 (19 Apr 2006)

Most of my experiences with civvies have been positive and primarily they are intrigued and curious about the military.  However, only recently I mentioned to an old friend that I was receiving my first posting soon and his reply was,"I hope you don't have to go overseas.  It's one thing to die, but it's another thing to die for nothing."  I was incredibly shocked by his ignorance and blatant disrespect for soldiers.  The fact is he knows nothing about the CF or our role in Afghanistan.  He doesn't follow the news and merely regurgitated what his artsy fartsy peers have conveyed to him.


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## the 48th regulator (19 Apr 2006)

Harumph,

I hope you pointed him in the right direction.  :-\

dileas

tess


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## Journeyman (19 Apr 2006)

Recorded Lad said:
			
		

> *I hope you pointed him in the right direction.....*


.....with a spinning back-kick to the solar plexus. I loses it!  

Since I tend to be colocated with left-of-centre, never held a job or seen a callus, tree-huggers1....I've learned not to get too worked up by the misinformed / uninformed  (about 80/20) rantings of some people. I'll talk with those that appear to be receptive to information, but for the majority of the bleating sheep, it's truly not worth getting bothered. Life is simply too short.

"Everyone dies; not everyone truly lives." If you can do something you enjoy, which also happens to make a positive difference in this world, you'll be miles ahead of the nay-sayers. Enjoy your military career.

________________
1 Not _you_ TMM, I know you work   ;D


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## George Wallace (19 Apr 2006)

On the same topic, but with a totally different slant.

Easter Sunday.  Ottawa.  Riding on OCTranpo bus to go downtown to visit the Byward Market, I watched in amazement at a Muslim woman and her kids get on the bus.  I wondered what could possibly have gone through this woman's mind, when she dressed her kids for this outing on the Public Transit System.  Two of her children were dressed rather normally for the five to ten year old age group, but the third and oldest was dressed in Camo Pants and Camo Shirt over a T-shirt.  He was dressed like your stereotypical Jihadist.  Makes you wonder about people at times.   :


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## Journeyman (19 Apr 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Camo Pants and Camo Shirt over a T-shirt.  He was dressed like your stereotypical Jihadist.


I dunno, it sounds more like your typical Kingston student, highschool or Queen's. 

Of course, yesterday at Queen's, I saw a girl wearing a wonderfully  ...er, scandalously short skirt...with mucklucks. Now _that_ makes me wonder about people at times. But this clearly _is_ off topic


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## William Webb Ellis (19 Apr 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Of course, yesterday at Queen's, I saw a girl wearing a wonderfully  ...er, scandalously short skirt...



Thank you.....you just took me back to my youth.  I forgot about spring on campus, god bless the mini skirt


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## monika (19 Apr 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ________________
> 1 Not _you_ TMM, I know you work   ;D



Seen.

I do find it ironic that so many leftie/artsy/anti-everything perma-students buy most of their clothing at army surplus.


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## GO!!! (19 Apr 2006)

TMM said:
			
		

> Seen.
> 
> I do find it ironic that so many leftie/artsy/anti-everything perma-students buy most of their clothing at army surplus.



... or rip the label off, replacing it with "black spot" anti - branding.


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## Haggis (20 Apr 2006)

Not all civvies are ignorant or unappreciative.

Leaving the gym this morning, in uniform, a thirtysomething gent stops me and says "I just wanted to say that I really appreciate what you guys are doing in Afghanistan."

I thanked him and asked that he repeat those sentiments to his local Member of Parliament.

... and this was in Ottawa, at a civvy gym.


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## William Webb Ellis (20 Apr 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Not all civvies are ignorant or unappreciative.
> 
> Leaving the gym this morning, in uniform, a thirtysomething gent stops me and says "I just wanted to say that I really appreciate what you guys are doing in Afghanistan."
> 
> ...



Agreed, this may be a case of the vocal minority being louder than the silent majority.

Cheers


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## Recon_Guardsman (23 Apr 2006)

Yeah, there are a lot of people who appreciate what we do. Here in Toronto last year, at the VE Day parade through the city, there were hundreds of people on the streets cheering as we marched by. Unfortunately, theres too many who dont. I figure that once the sh!t hits the fan, theyll realize they need us. But then, it might be too late...


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## GDawg (23 Apr 2006)

I tend to get more cheers than jeers.
The other day a chum and myself were on the bus in uniform and a man gave us five bucks for coffee, I said we couldn't take it but he insisted, so I put it in the United Way jar at work the next day. I usually get a handshake from a stranger every few days...

A collegue of mine and I got into a long discussion with 2 girls at a local high school about our "involvement" in Iraq... the girls didn't get it but the other students who over heard us politely inform them of Canada's foreign policy though we did a fantastic job. A day or two later a girl at another high school gestured at me and said "I'd tap that"... I guess thats "public support".


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## Roy Harding (23 Apr 2006)

Recon_Guardsman said:
			
		

> Yeah, there are a lot of people who appreciate what we do. Here in Toronto last year, at the VE Day parade through the city, there were hundreds of people on the streets cheering as we marched by. Unfortunately, theres too many who dont. I figure that once the sh!t hits the fan, theyll realize they need us. But then, it might be too late...



This attitude of civilians is nothing new - Rudyard Kipling (30 December 1865 - 18 January 1936) said it best in his poem "Tommy":

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
    The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
    O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
    But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
    The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
    O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
    Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
    But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
    The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
    O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
    While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
    But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
    There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
    O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!


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## Hot Lips (23 Apr 2006)

Roy, 

I am sitting here with half a smile and the other half a tear in my eye...
Thank-you for this poem...Hope more civvies read it today

Cheers
HL


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## zipperhead_cop (23 Apr 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Roy,
> 
> I am sitting here with half a smile and the other half a tear in my eye...
> Thank-you for this poem...Hope more ciccies read it today
> ...



I love the unintended irony of that typo.


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## Hot Lips (23 Apr 2006)

LMAO...okay okay...I was on the way out the door for a run already...LMAO and obviously spell check didn't pick that one up...maybe it was a Freudian Slip on my part...never the less hope you had a chuckle.

HL


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## Kyle (25 Apr 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> I think this sums it up very well. The child soldiers that we talk about are forced into service, treated like slaves, and generally have no say over their own affairs. They cannot voluntarily leave the service they are in.



The most common practice being to go into a village and kill the adults. The children then have the option of joining, or starving to death. Once in, militias use a number of tactics to keep their young fighters from leaving. In Sierra Leone and Liberia, they would get them addicted to drugs, and thus, as the only source of the children's drug supply, keep them from leaving. In the Democratic Republic of the Congo, they would hold the families hostage, telling their young recruits that if they left, their families would die.



> A 17 year old Canadian reservist is a completely different case. You cannot join without your parents' permission, you will not be required to serve (short of a general mobilization which has not happened in Canada since WWII), you cannot even be forced to attend training at your Res unit, and you can leave pretty well any time you feel like it. You will not go overseas until well after your 18th birthday, since it would take at least that long in the Res for you to reach a training level at which a right-minded CO would permit you to go overseas.



Very well put. The two cases aren't even remotely comparable. The problem that I see is that the legal age of majority and the point at which each person becomes mature enough to carry out military duties aren't necessarily the same. Most research shows that humans don't fully mature psychologically and socially until into their early 20s, so from a psychologist's perspective, they would still be children, although they're legally adults. So, at what point does a person become an adult? Legally, it's the age of 18, 19 or 21, depending on the situation. So technically, someone who joins the reserves at 17 (like I did) is a child soldier. However, the Canadian Army I believe provides enough structure and training for younger recruits to be able to adapt to military life and understand the implications of their choice before being required to deploy. And as an added safety net, they have to have parental consent. Their parents certainly understand what the Army does, and if they consent to letting their child join, they should (in theory) be effectively telling the Army, "My son / daughter is mature enough to perform their duties." I personally feel that there should be parental consent required until somewhere in the neighbourhood of 21 - simply because everybody develops at a different rate, and the parents are normally more in tune with their children's level of maturity than anybody else. But as far as the problem of child soldiers is concerned, and the movement to demobilise them, Canada's 17 year-old reservists don't even show up on the radar, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather see more concentrated efforts on demobilising the 10 year-olds in Sierra Leone. Let's take care of the big problems first, and then worry about splitting hairs over the age of majority.

When I read over the dialogue with the teacher and fellow students, I don't think that it's ignorance, so much as oppertunism and happenstance. Simply put, it's easier to target 17 year-olds joining the reserves here than it is to do something about getting Kalashnikovs out of the hands of those seven years younger in Liberia (oppertunism). And you happened to be a 17 year-old reservist who was there when the video was shown (happenstance). Had you not been there, or over 18, I doubt that the question would have even been raised, but since you were, they looked over and saw someone who wasn't a legal adult yet, but who was in the Army. So if they continue to dog you over it, ask them what they're doing to help demobilise the tens of thousands of pre-adolescant children who are fighting in 21 of the world's ongoing conflicts right now. And if the answer equals less effort than they're expending to hassle you, then their priorities are out of line. And if they want to pursue it, send them to me - I've done my homework, and I'll sort them out.


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## zipperhead_cop (25 Apr 2006)

I don't understand why the legal drinking age keeps being brought up in conjunction with the age of admission to military service (not you, Kyle, per se) .  Alcohol, among other things, impairs your judgement.  In this country, for the most part, someone has decided that 19 is the age at which life experience could potentially offset the judgement impairment of alcohol consumption (although, could not be farther from the reality).  Presumably, while training or while deployed, soldiers are not intoxicated on duty, so it doesn't really matter what the drinking age is.  Driving age is 16.  Voting age is 18.  Car rental age is 25.  Drinking in the USA is 21.  My kids gymnastics classes start at 2 years old.  Different situations have different tests and limits as to when the administrating organization will accept a person based on their age.  If anything, I could live with the age of military admission going to 16, and putting the drinking age up to 21 (although that would crush our bars here in Windsor).  
Without really knowing, it would seem to me that if you take on a new troop at 17, it would take about a year before they are much good to anyone anyway, so by the time they are trained, they are deployable.  Sound reasonable?


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## FightingIrish (25 Apr 2006)

hey man...i too am a 17 year old reservist and all i get from my buddies is "are u stupid your going to get shot"..i say wtf...theres an example of ignorance..it takes me a wile to explain it to everyone and i tell them that its what i want to do..u just cant let them get to u...


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## chrisf (25 Apr 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Alcohol, among other things, impairs your judgement.



No kidding, I've got a good friend who has the unfortunate distinction of being able to say he joined the army while drunk... *twice* (First the res, then the regs).

(Nothing to do with the thread, just had to mention it  )


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## zipperhead_cop (26 Apr 2006)

FightingIrish said:
			
		

> hey man...i too am a 17 year old reservist and all i get from my buddies is "are u stupid your going to get shot"..i say wtf...theres an example of ignorance..it takes me a wile to explain it to everyone and i tell them that its what i want to do..u just cant let them get to u...



You want to get shot?


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## Loachman (26 Apr 2006)

I joined on my 17th birthday in 1973 - the dying days of Vietnam. If you think that civilians are ignorant now, you should have seen them then.

I've not received a single Nazi salute or been called "babykiller" for a couple of decades now.


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## winchable (26 Apr 2006)

I had the pleasure of attending a first year programme a university in Halifax, Nova Scotia that is well known as a "bastion of free thought and liberal education" (or as a pleasant MCpl put it once 'tree hugging, granola eating, rainbow jumping....') 
The school is Kings and it is far from free and the education far from liberal (using my definition of the word)

I have been called:
A babykiller
Monster
Facist
A modern colonialist

I have been targeted (wearing uniform on way to unit) with pamphlets with pictures of dead African children
I have had prof's tell me "yes" they would "absolutely" flunk me if they thought they could get away with it
I have had a prof refuse to extend a paper *12 hours* because I was on a weekend exercise.
I was the target of a full pitcher of beer (which I had paid for) at *my birthday* in the school pub because I said "it was a great decision" to join the military and that I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
I had actually managed to chat up a girl for a full 3 hours one night to a point where she was absolutely in love with me before her friend came over and said "he's one of those part-time killer assholes" and the girl suddenly changed her mind about everything she'd said the entire evening based on that fact.


But I won't bitch about civvies *ever*, it's a weird thing being in the military in that you have to deal with the fact that what you're doing is unappreciated, misunderstood and sometimes hated by the people you do it for and as such you have to approach it with a degree of humility and ignore much of it otherwise you start to dislike the bosses (the CDN public like it or not) more than the enemy.
Bitching about them only makes it worse and drives that wedge between "us and them".


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## mover1 (26 Apr 2006)

I am calling Bullshit!!!


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## winchable (26 Apr 2006)

Find anyone else who knows King's and they'll say the same.
I was the only reservist on a campus of 800 transplanted kids from Toronto who had a dislike for the military, and profs who have literally spent their whole academic careers on that very campus.

I shit you not.


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## zipperhead_cop (26 Apr 2006)

mover1 said:
			
		

> I am calling Bullshit!!!



Me too.  Who would waste a whole pitcher of beer?!?! ;D :cheers:

The funny things about people like the ones Che is describing is that they fancy themselves higher intellectuals than us "part time killers" (or full time killers for that matter) and if asked would purport to be "open minded".  However, try to engage them in a debate, and they shrink like mist in the morning sun.  Common sense and socialism are irreconcilable.


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## winchable (26 Apr 2006)

It was my pitcher they were wasting,

Part of the problem I found is that they spend most of their time practicing their arguments over and over again, while the rest of us are busy working and studying to have the spare time to memorise 20 different references for an argument over the Canadian involvement in Afghanistan..or what is a better recipe for lentil soup.


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## zipperhead_cop (26 Apr 2006)

Che said:
			
		

> It was my pitcher they were wasting,



Extra rude and unacceptable :threat:



			
				Che said:
			
		

> Part of the problem I found is that they spend most of their time practicing their arguments over and over again, while the rest of us are busy working and studying to have the spare time to memorise 20 different references for an argument over the Canadian involvement in Afghanistan..or what is a better recipe for lentil soup.



And yet, with all the practice, the arguments still fall appart.  I'm sure they think it is terribly clever to scream "shameshameshameshame" or "no justice, no peace" over and over, but to most people they just look like retards.  

...........


Actually, that is unfair to retards.  They don't deserve to be compared to hippies.


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## COBRA-6 (26 Apr 2006)

Did you sort out the person who dumped the beer on you??  :threat:


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## winchable (26 Apr 2006)

Would have liked to I suppose but (apart from not wanting to spoil my birthday anymore) the staff took them out and they were banned from the "Wardroom" (the name of the pub, which is ironic...right?) for the year, not before all of their friends cheered them for it though. Although to be fair, a few of their buddies did come over and say that what happened was OTFT, so I still can't totally write them all off.

In retrospect, any "sorting out" would have probably proved everything they think about the military right (knuckledragging, no neck, no brain, think with fists, small man-alpha male apes)


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## COBRA-6 (26 Apr 2006)

Che said:
			
		

> In retrospect, any "sorting out" would have probably proved everything they think about the military right (knuckledragging, no neck, no brain, think with fists, small man-alpha male apes)



I see your point, but I don't think people should feel that they can get away with shit like that, or saying horribly offensive things to someone (look at the babble forum's thread on the recent casualties to see the way these asshole think) and not face any sort of reprisal...


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## winchable (26 Apr 2006)

> look at the babble forum



Oh now don't tell people to do that..

I will wire someone 10$ via online banking, if they can honestly read through 10 threads on that forum, make it all the way to the bottom of them and not feel anger and/or naseau (SP?)

If you can make it past 10, that anger should turn into a number of other emotions before finally hitting acceptance and you're able to get back to scrapbooking different types of leaves or whatever other activities you've inadvertantly used to cope.


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## Korus (26 Apr 2006)

I got through three threads. And in all honety, I didn't read all of those three threads.
Of the three I chose, one was about military being deployed to occupy Canadian cities, one about how Alberta is a Christian fundamentalist redneck province that should give up most of it's oil money, and one just about rednecks... 

(P.S. I'm an Albertan.. that's probably why I didn't make it very far before shaking my head and moving on)


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## Danjanou (26 Apr 2006)

Che said:
			
		

> Oh now don't tell people to do that..
> 
> I will wire someone 10$ via online banking, if they can honestly read through 10 threads on that forum, make it all the way to the bottom of them and not feel anger and/or naseau (SP?)
> 
> If you can make it past 10, that anger should turn into a number of other emotions before finally hitting acceptance and you're able to get back to scrapbooking different types of leaves or whatever other activities you've inadvertantly used to cope.



You’re on bro, the $10.00 to be delivered in beer at that Clayton Park den of iniquity and home of the local big cats the Copper Penny?

Of course I was once introduced at a university party as a “baby burning, fascist, racist, chauvinist war monger.” I’m not sure if what bothered me more was that the university in question was MUN (as in MEMORIAL University of Nfld) or the person who made the intro to the collection of enlightened silver spoon socialists was my kid sister then head of the Wimmins Student Centre. :


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## Korus (26 Apr 2006)

I feel like I missed out on the entire University experience.... I think the worst I've had was my friend introduce me "This is Roger... He's in the Army..."  Then one of her friends just let out this tortured "Oh.. my... god".. as if I were killing a baby in front of her. I actually found it kind of amusing, and in the highly intoxicated state I was in (Last day of exams in the fall semester of my third year of engineering, I think it was? Needless to say, I was a bit drunk), I managed to completely change her opinion of the military using a secret weapon I like to call "facts"

Appart from that, lots of people just had a lot of questions about the military and were genuinely interested.. But I guess that's what I get for going to Uni in Edmonton.


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## zipperhead_cop (26 Apr 2006)

Mike_R23A said:
			
		

> I see your point, but I don't think people should feel that they can get away with shit like that, or saying horribly offensive things to someone (look at the babble forum's thread on the recent casualties to see the way these asshole think) and not face any sort of reprisal...



Of course, if the forum is called "babble" it doesn't lend itself to credibility.  What is the actual site?  I may need to log in and get banned.   :warstory:


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## winchable (26 Apr 2006)

If you go to www.rabble.ca and look for a link that says "babble" you'll fine the spew.


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## TN2IC (26 Apr 2006)

Excellent Poem Roy Harding  
 ...well done...


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## armyvern (26 Apr 2006)

mover1 said:
			
		

> I am calling Bullshit!!!



A lot of this El Toro poo poo actually does occur...

Picture Armyvern 8.5 months pregnant (scary thought eh??) in the mall in Pembroke with my husbands Airborne sweatshirt (earned ..Hmmm) on....a couple of weeks after the Somalia incident. 

Chick yells at me "your husband is a murderer" and proceeds to spit in my face. That little incident made the front page of the Ottawa Citizen along with my pic with 2 other harrassed wives - CF mbrs - outside the Pet front Gate next to the jumper statue. 

8.5 months pregnant I was or the main story wouldn't have been that incident but rather it would have been my reaction to the numpty one who did it. To this day those that know me are somewhat taken aback that this red-head just let her go along her Merry little way with her 'holier than thou righteous' attitude, and that I managed to maintain that 'military bearing.'

I have no doubt this other crap happens...after all I was very very obviously pregnant when this POS managed to pull this one off on me.

There are indeed idiots everywhere.


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## TN2IC (26 Apr 2006)

Anyone done Oka... they should have some stories..


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## Lost_Warrior (26 Apr 2006)

I have had mixed reactions from civies.  I have been bumped on the street.   I have been harrassed by a group of pot smoking teenagers (funny story too..), I have been stared down on the bus and metro, I have had people intentionally step on my shined boots, but with all that crap, it makes it worth while when things like having a stranger shake my hand while on the train, thanking me for my service, and a father telling his son, while sitting next to me that I'm the kind of person who defends this country so he can go to school every day.


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## Loachman (27 Apr 2006)

So things haven't entirely improved, then...

Perhaps my age has some influence on the younger idiots.

I've done a number of Remembrance Day Speaker Programme engagements at elementary, secondary, and private schools over the last few years and I've found them to be very rewarding. The kids and teachers have all been great - and this is around Toronto too.


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## 1feral1 (27 Apr 2006)

Action in the Duty room!

I just took a call tonight from a woman who found one of our blokes wallets at an airport in the north part of the state. Full of his ID, credit cards, and hundreds of dollars in cold Aussie cash.

She is sending it at her cost via overnight express, and showed nothing but genuine concern that he recieve it.

She is a civilian, not affiliated with the ADF at all, young, sounded 20s-30s, so not all civvies are bad, but here for some reason, the general public seem to always have time and respect for our Defence Force.

There is such thing as karma, isn't there.


Cheers,

Wes


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## zipperhead_cop (27 Apr 2006)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> just took a call tonight from a woman who found one of our blokes wallets at an airport in the north part of the state. Full of his ID, credit cards, and hundreds of dollars in cold Aussie cash.



And by airport, you mean "her bedroom"? ;D


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## 1feral1 (27 Apr 2006)

Hey Zip, you're either up late or early. Its 2155 here on a Thu night, which puts it about 0400 Thu CST in Canuckistan. No, fair dinkum, she found it on a seat in the waiting area of a gate.

Cheers,

Wes


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## zipperhead_cop (27 Apr 2006)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Hey Zip, you're either up late or early. Its 2155 here on a Thu night, which puts it about 0400 Thu CST in Canuckistan. No, fair dinkum, she found it on a seat in the waiting area of a gate.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes



You must be used to the posters from the left coast.  In Ontario, it's just about 8am.  Finished midnight shift and off to court for the day.  Fun.  
Glad to hear people have their heads right in your part of the planet.


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## civmick (29 Apr 2006)

I read the other day recruitment is ahead of target this year - obviously some people aren't being put off.


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## Signalman150 (12 May 2006)

I'll put in my two cents....

Joined the Air Cadets in 1970.  In those days too many Cdns thought it chique to adopt the anti-war mentality of the US.  If you were a cdt in Canada you didn't dare mention it to yr schoolmates, because you'd get the '...so you wanna be a baby-killer?" line.  Tiresome. It was bad enough just having short hair back then.

Joined the Pri Res in '75, and then REALLY got it.  Ya know, I hardly ever even spanked my kids (when I finally had them), let alone killed babies, but the general public in Victoria BC seemed convinced that was my occupation.  Put up with a lot of that stuff back then.  What it all came down to was that the teens and young adults of Canada just thought it was so "grown-up" to do the anti-war thing like our cousins south of the border.  Images of demostrations, and flag burnings, and the chant of "hell no, we won't go" were just so....thrilling, so FASHIONABLE.

Things got better in the 80s, until Somalia.  Let's not dwell on the Lib gov'ts abandonment of its fighting men and women though.

But what really brought a tear to my eye was the public support for the Army when it moved fm Calgary to Edmonton.  That was followed later by the public reception of the first roto of troops coming back from Afganistan.  Was hard for me not to get choked up standing amongst the throngs of civvies lining the streets when the soldiers paraded in front of City Hall...not something you would have seen in '75.  

The Cdn public's attitude overall has changed drastically, BUT, there are still all those of the "baby killer" mentality, and you will never get rid of them completely.  They're the people that would rather sit in front of their TV and eat peanut butter sammies and smoke weed than ever think of getting of their fat butts and doing something for humanity.  Those liberal thinkers that were being discussed earlier in the thread could more aptly be described as "non-doers".  If it means inconveniencing themselves or actually putting themselves in danger for the sake of someone else...well, count them out.  Consider them, my friends, as the true dregs of society.  

Not the poor little girl standing on a street corner trying to get enough money to buy a fix, or the old-man sorting through a dumpster for empties.  They need our help, and they need defending, by a soldier as much as anyone else. But the honest-to-god against-everything, name-calling, elitist left-winger? Straight dregs.  Remember that, and weep for a wasted life: theirs.

But it's been warming to me to see the positive change in attitude by the bulk of the civ populus towards its military in the last 30 yrs.

I shall now step off my soap box, and cease pontificating.


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## MrsSmith (12 May 2006)

Recon_Guardsman said:
			
		

> Hey everyone, its my first post here so bear with me please. I just wanted to mention an even that happened the other day and see what kind of opinions I get from you. I was in a discussion in my world issues class, and we were covering the topic of child soldiers. The teacher was saying that anyone in the military under 18 is a child soldier, and we all came to the sensible conclusion that the use of child soldiers is wrong because the children are not mature enough for it... that it causes problems in their development and so on (this after watching a documentary of kids in Africa who had been used as child soldiers and now have PTSD). Well, the class then came to the understanding that because im not 18 (im a 17 year old reservist in Toronto), I am not mature enough to be a soldier. I am also a 'pawn' (their exact word) in the government's plans.
> 
> How does everyone feel about people younger than 18 being in the CF in general? Any good stories of civvies being totally ignorant?



Being a soldier does not make you a pawn, living in society does - voting, consumerism, watching TV, working, studying, getting a loan - all this includes one in the system. We are all pawns to a certain extent yet making a commitment to an idea bigger than you i.e. national defense is the first step to becoming the king of one's own world and after that you can do something good for humanity. Who cares about label like "pawn of government" put by another pawn, you probably will accomplish and understand more in your life than any other person that called you a pawn unless they realize that they are not better than you in that matter.
About maturity... I personally believe 16 sounds just about right as long as there is the parent's and recruit's consent. For one children in Africa were mostly forced to train and become soldiers, some were basically sold to the army. Most of them were a lot younger than you. In your case it was (I hope) a decision made with your consent. Besides, IMHO 17 is not a child, people are tried for murder at that age. Also maturity partially depends on environment, hence, you will most likely mature faster than your peers due to all the responsibility and information you're presented with.
My dad was 16 when he was sent to army and it did only good to him. He learnt team-work no matter how corny that sounds, sense of brotherhood, accomplishment, determination, self-control and pride. I grew up with both my parents and I can tell you with all honesty he is one of the most amazing guys I've ever known and he will always be my role-model. No PTSD, just raising me to develop same qualities and good aim, lol. Some people I know (in the army or not) are completely psychotic and no amount of education or time will change that (that's a given) but I prefer they kill their equals with riffles as big as theirs for their country than on the streets of Toronto for $100.
In short, my opinion is that if a person is stable and not way too young (10 or 13) army will only help. Be proud and all the best.


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## pbi (13 May 2006)

As Signalman and others have noted, the attitude of the Canadian public today is so much further ahead than where it was in the mid to late 1970's, that it's like a different planet. I was a young Militia soldier in those days, travelling in uniform on the public transit to my armoury in downtown Toronto. It was a rare trip that I did not hear some anti-military comment, get a Nazi salute, or have something yelled from a passing car. The CF got very, very little coverage in the media (of course-we weren't doing much deployed other than Cyprus in those days-our NATO commitment got very little attention except by the ban-the-bomb crowd).

We just simply NEVER got the coverage we regularly get today. Embedded reporters? Soldiers writing e-columns for the CBC? Media awareness training? Speakers' Program? Never had any of it. People serving today who are too young to remember those days may have difficulty judging just how much better off we really are now.  The changes began (I think) in the recovery period after Somalia, when we changed our approach to dealing with the public and the media. Coincidentally we have almost always been deployed in some dangerous, high-visibility place since those days, which has helped our public image. Today, and for at least the last few years, I rarely encounter the negative attitudes of the old days, and I see gestures of public support that would have been unheard of in the '70s.

There are always going to be Canadians who oppose the use of the armed forces in foreign or domestic policy: that is their right and so be it. We should not look for a single-minded population in a free and diverse democracy like Canada. The fact that we exist to guarantee those rights seems to escape them, but it is true nonetheless. We just have to keep on trying to stand up and educate our fellow citizens, as some of the folks on this great site regularly try to do.

Cheers


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## NormR (16 May 2006)

I just 2 cents, 
A Friend of mine was given a link to a US web site: www.military.com and found this rather interesting Post.
although the issue here is the ignorance of Civvies and Child soldiers. I also thought that the writers perspective was useful in pointing out that our military forces over sea's though small did contribute.

So Not all Civvies are ignorant.
sorry to hijack but I thought this is a perspective we do not see often.


Link: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,95568,00.HTML

Thanks, Canada
David Meadows | April 27, 2006
On April 22, 2006 four Canadian soldiers were killed in Afghanistan by a roadside bomb. Respects and heartfelt sadness go to the families of those heroes who stand alongside the U.S. in the Long War half a world away. While we focus on the war in Iraq, the fighting continues in Afghanistan where side-by-side the U.S. and one of its most loyal allies, Canada, engage the re-emergence of the Taliban. 

Canada is like a close uncle who constantly argues, badgers, and complains about what you are doing, but when help is truly needed, you can't keep him away: he's right there alongside you. We have a unique relationship with Canada. We have different political positions on many issues, but our unique friendship has weathered world wars, global crises, and the ever-so-often neighborhood disagreement. 

Canada has been with us since the beginning of the Global War on Terrorism. In February 2006, without fanfare Canada, leading a multinational force combating growing Taliban insurgency, increased troop strength in Afghanistan to 2,300. With the American military stretched thin against rising instability in both Iraq and Afghanistan, an ally that increases its troop strength is inspiring and deserves our respect. 

Katrina was another example of our close family-like relationship. Katrina struck the Gulf Coast on August 29, 2005. Two days later, the Vancouver Urban Search and Rescue Team rushed from British Columbia, Canada to Saint Bernard Parish, Louisiana. In this Parish of 68,000 Americans, the first responders were Canadians. Overall, within the devastated Gulf Coast area, it appears Canada was the first responder outside of local efforts. They worked 18-hour days, going door-to-door alongside Louisiana State Troopers, rescuing 119-Americans. 

While FEMA ramped up to surge into the catastrophe; while the administration and Louisiana fought for the politically correct way to respond; Canadian aid was already at work. 

The Canadian Forces Joint Task Group 306 consisting of the warships HMCS Athabaskan, HMCS Toronto, NSMC Ville de Quebec, and CCGC William Alexander sailed to the Gulf Coast to deliver humanitarian supplies. They stayed, working alongside U.S. Navy and Mexican warships, to provide aid to Katrina victims. 

Katrina was not an anomaly of our close relationship. When Hurricane Ivan devastated Pensacola, Florida in October 2004 Canadian humanitarian help was there also. Canadian power trucks roamed the streets and countryside helping restore electricity where Americans had a unique experience of running into workmen who only spoke French. 

Canada took a lot of undeserved flak for failing to leap into Operation Iraqi Freedom when our administration sent us galloping across the desert. But Canada remains one of our staunchest allies in the war. When United States military forces were fighting up the highways in Operation Iraqi Freedom, Canada quietly increased troop numbers in Afghanistan and continued Naval operations with U.S. warships in the Persian Gulf. 

I was at the Pentagon on 9/11, stationed on the Joint Staff. During the early hours after the attack, the United States closed its air space and ordered every aircraft within our borders to land immediately at the nearest airfield. Canada immediately stood up an Operations Support Post. 

With civil aviation grounded, aircraft destined for the United States were forced elsewhere. Most landed in Canada. Re-routed travelers and flight crews were hosted at Canadian Forces facilities in Goose Bay, Gander, and Stephenville, Newfoundland; Halifax, Shearwater, and Aldershot, Nova Scotch; Winnipeg, Manitoba; and, Yellowknife, Northwest Territories. 

Canada rapidly mobilized its forces. Within hours, the Canadian Navy was on alert with ships preparing to cast off immediately for any U.S. port to help victims of the 9/11 attacks. Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team prepared to deploy from Trenton, Ontario. Canada dispersed CF-18 fighter aircraft to strategic locations throughout Canada. No politics. No negotiating. No questions. They were just there. Canada would have fought any adversary that approached the United States that day. 

Canada has been such an integral partner with the United States in the Global War on Terrorism that on December 7, 2004 when President Bush awarded the Presidential Unit Citation to Commander Joint Force South for combat success in Afghanistan, he was also recognizing the secretive Canadian Joint Task Force 2 commando counter-terrorism unit. 

The U.S. Department of Defense has awarded 30 Bronze Star medals for heroism in combat to Canadian Forces personnel. Some of those 30 died in action. Many of the others were wounded. These Canadians earned this American medal for heroism fighting alongside Americans. When we recall our own dead heroes, we must remember that these warriors gave their lives not only for Canada, but also for the United States. 

Canada is more than a neighbor. It is a close family member with the gumption to disagree with its brother to the south but always there when disaster strikes and America needs help. For that, I salute you, Canada, and extend my respect for the sacrifices given by members of the Canadian Forces. 

Sound Off...What do you think? Join the discussion.


Copyright 2006 David Meadows. All opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily reflect those of Military.com.


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## Recon_Guardsman (16 May 2006)

I actually saw that 'letter' printed in the back of the National Post a little while back. Very heartfelt and thankful. It helped put back into focus the relationship we both have.


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## Redbeaver (17 May 2006)

For what its worth the well thought out posts you all post here have helped make this civvie a little less ignorant  8)


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## zipperhead_cop (17 May 2006)

Redbeaver said:
			
		

> For what its worth the well thought out posts you all post here have helped make this civvie a little less ignorant  8)



Thanks Beave!  Now if you tell two friends, then they tell two friends, and so on, and so on.....


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## Cabose (18 May 2006)

This is what I say to anyone who says that Canada shouldn't have an army.

"okay you think Canada shouldn't have an army.  Sure that sounds great I wont have to get up at five every morning this summer.  O wait Where did these boats come from the look like the north Korean navy...Shit I don't think this is going to go over well.  O look now we where all forced to join the army o look we just declared war on the states.  Well how do you feel about not having an army now.  O look right before you could answer you got shot O well I didn't really like you anyway." *walk away*

They probably wont have allot to say.
Cabose


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## zipperhead_cop (18 May 2006)

Does North Korea have a Navy?   ???


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## couchcommander (18 May 2006)

I believe it's what you'd call a green water navy (I don't know if I have the term right)?

Mostly oriented around costal defense. Global security has a bit on it.  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/navy.htm


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## Bobbyoreo (18 May 2006)

Just read the article from the Globe. Its so nice to hear it put on paper!!!


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## MrsSmith (18 May 2006)

Just watched a speech of Gen. R.J. Hillier, Chief of Defence Staff from April 11, 2006 (coincidentally my birthday, very nice gift) at the Empire Club of Canada. The speech is marvelous: both inspirational and educational without being phony. He touched on our mission in Afghanistan, wheather we should have army, Harper's visit to Afghan and so forth. I highly recommend to check that one out, especially for civvies who have little or no information on the matter except from anti-war enthusiasts and media - should give you a nice perspective on things.

You can find this and other speeches here:
http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/events_previous.asp?Webcast=Y


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## GO!!! (18 May 2006)

couchcommander said:
			
		

> I believe it's what you'd call a green water navy (I don't know if I have the term right)?



I think the term you are looking for is "brown water navy", which is generally referred to as a naval capability centered on riverine and littoral naval capabilities, and mining. Vessels are usually shallow draft, and weapons are centered on ballistic projectile and LOS (line of sight) platforms. There would also be an absence of a significant Air defence element and Capital Ships (Destroyers, AC Carriers).

Considering that the DPRK can rely on the Chinese for more advanced (and expensive) capabilities, and their primary strategic objective has been centered on their neighbors to the south, this would make sense.


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## paracowboy (18 May 2006)

during the earlier stages of the "Peace", NK had a very well-established espionage system based around boats and frogmen. Does anyone (GO!!!) have any more info on that?


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## couchcommander (18 May 2006)

I just looked it up, and I think I was on the right track with the green water. You are right, a lot of it is riverine, but they do as well have a few frigates as well as some old submarines and a large number of missle boats. 

Certainly not a blue water navy, but it seems to me (and I am no expert on the topic) that they qualify as somewhat more than a brown water navy (assuming the definition is shared - I define it as riverine and littoral capabilities) due to the fact they can extent their power out into their EEZ. 

Once again though, I am far from an expert in this field.


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## Recon_Guardsman (19 May 2006)

The title 'ignorance of civvies' reminded me of something...
Im coming back from a BMQ weekend one time in my combats, and im starving. I stop by a Harveys to pick a burger (or four) and the lady at the counter asks me (that day was 31 October) if im in my halloween costume. Good times.


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## Cabose (19 May 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Does North Korea have a Navy?   ???


I don't know its just the only Force that might be a "threat" that people would take seriously.  You could just replace it with any "threat" I guess.
Cabose


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## Centurian1985 (19 May 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Considering that the DPRK can rely on the Chinese for more advanced (and expensive) capabilities, and their primary strategic objective has been centered on their neighbors to the south, this would make sense.



This is off topic, but IMO the Chinese-North Korean relationship is not as close as people would think.  China still has a few 'status quo' issues like their continual saber-rattling over the Taiwan issue and any penetration of their airspace/waters by foreign powers, but China has changed their relations with North Korea significantly over the past 20 years so that it is actually much more similiar to the relationship between the USA and Mexico.  They are protective of the NKoreans from US/European interest in the same way as the US would be protective of Mexico from communist interests.   The Chinese government sees illegal NKorean immigrants as a growing problem, while the NKorea government sees increased Chinese business investment as a future problem (much like the US and Mexico).  Although China is willing to support NKorea economically, it is more hesitant to supply actual arms to them as this is not in line with China's current foreign policies (playing nice on the world stage level and attracting foreign investment, both as part of attaining regional dominance).


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## Trooper Hale (20 May 2006)

Maybe I'm too young to have ever experianced anything. Back home in Aus, i used to get public transport to a mates house before going out to the unit on the tuesday night, I'd jump on the tram in full cams and my big green esh bag and get nothing but the occasional nod from people. I mean I've had staring comps with 14-16yr olds who think they'r a lot tougher then they really are (Always private school kids "I just finished school, I'm trying to pretend that mum doesnt give me $50 pocket money every week and that i'm from the 'Ghetto'") but no one has ever said anything to me. I suppose we younger fellers are really lucky to be soldiering in a time when people (usually) support us and dont click there heels and Sieg Heil us on the street (A bit of the old "buttstroke, smash" with the elbow could help there).
I did have times in history Revolutions at school though (I joined the week after i turned 17) when I had clashes with my teacher. She once made the statement that the British Army in Iraq was full of people who had been in prison, unemployed, forced to join, tricked, were underage etc. I interrupted her to say that the British Army is an example for all those around the world of absolute professionalism and that i found what she said to be really offensive as some friends of mine are in the British Army. She said "Well its true", I said a whole heap of eloquent stuff...mainly "Well thats bullshit". It seemed to her that any base rumour about things that were going in Iraq had to be true and while i didnt know anything about the Americans, the stuff she would say about the Brits was really, really false and left wing.
But again, I've been really lucky, shes about the only person to ever confront me and insult my "Life-style" choice (The actual phrase she used! Like I was beyond help "just move him to the corner, i'm sure the twitching will stop"). 
Australians (This is a gross generalisation and I usually dont do it) seem to have a very neutral attitude to most things, we'r a people who found out our government deliberately lied to us and just quitely forgot about it, and the armys no different, every now and then we get the old digs on the street come and chat and on ANZAC day we'r heroes (Stripper in a Beret, YOUR BERET! is there anything greater?) but for the most part Civvies here just have a glance and move on. I think they appreciate it though, people are always friendly and the mothers with their kids coming to talk to you prove that they'r not scared of us.
Its the few that spoil it, not the Majority


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## CDN Zipperhead (21 May 2006)

Just to put in my 2 cents, the best and the worst:
The best was when I was in Cyprus in '88-'89 and about mid tour the City of Calgary sent over a HUGH poster with just about every Calgarians signature on it along with a pancake breakfast and an entertainment show. I felt great, we were the envy of all the other contingents and the embassy attaches. ;D

The worst was more recent. While escorting a group of Air Cadets, in uniform, on the BC ferries, we were yelled at and spit at and accused of teaching kids to kill and turning them into mindless killers and any number of curses that all seem to blend into each other now. Needless to say the kids were really shook up and we had to spend most of that day calming them down. :rage:


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## Forgotten_Hero (22 May 2006)

> Stripper in a Beret, YOUR BERET! is there anything greater?



Indeed. A stripper in your balmoral!  ;D

As for the subject, I havent encountered anyone in person who made any smartass comment about the military or anything like that. Hell, the only time I've seen civvies pissed off at us was at the Wendy's/Timmies in Arnprior when we (along with 3 other units) stopped by on the way to Pet.


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## pbi (23 May 2006)

CDN Zipperhead said:
			
		

> Just to put in my 2 cents, the best and the worst:
> The best was when I was in Cyprus in '88-'89 and about mid tour the City of Calgary sent over a HUGH poster with just about every Calgarians signature on it along with a pancake breakfast and an entertainment show. I felt great, we were the envy of all the other contingents and the embassy attaches. ;D
> 
> The worst was more recent. While escorting a group of Air Cadets, in uniform, on the BC ferries, we were yelled at and spit at and accused of teaching kids to kill and turning them into mindless killers and any number of curses that all seem to blend into each other now. Needless to say the kids were really shook up and we had to spend most of that day calming them down. :rage:



Yes...well...consider the two locatoins you're referring to here....

Cheers


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## Centurian1985 (23 May 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> Yes...well...consider the two locatoins you're referring to here....
> 
> Cheers



Could you amplify?


----------



## Michael OLeary (23 May 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Could you amplify?



See http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42246/post-384205.html#msg384205


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## Jungle (23 May 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Could you amplify?


OK, I'll try: *"CONSIDER THE TWO LOCATIONS YOU'RE REFERRING TO HERE !!!"*
Better ??


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## Centurian1985 (23 May 2006)

Haha, I should have expected some humourous response (although Jungle's was the funniest of the two). 

Perhaps I  should amplify...

PBI, are you implying that Alberta is pro-military while BC is anti-military?  ???  If so, I would strongly disagree!


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## medicineman (23 May 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> PBI, are you implying that Alberta is pro-military while BC is anti-military?  ???  If so, I would strongly disagree!



Hmmm, I grew up in BC and joined the Reserves and the Reg Force there as well - I would have to agree that BC'ers only tolerate the military to the extent that they give a whole lot of jobs to a few areas - otherwise you haven't been around Esquimalt, Nanoose or Comox, especially back in the nuke days when it was like a hippy feeding frenzy out there.  I can remember some hippy freaking out at us "mortaring fish" in a creek one day (tossing tflashes into somewhere NO fish could live, much less spawn) because we were disturbing his poetry writing.  When I was posted in Calgary, we got a nice welcome home from Yugo in 94 and nobody called me a babykiller or any other foolish thing while I was there.

MM


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## Centurian1985 (23 May 2006)

I was asking pbi, but since you replied...



> Hmmm, I grew up in BC and joined the Reserves and the Reg Force there as well


Well, hello, I grew up in BC as well, did reserves there and later joined the reg force, and I completely disagree. 



> I would have to agree that BC'ers only tolerate the military to the extent that they give a whole lot of jobs to a few areas - otherwise you haven't been around Esquimalt, Nanoose or Comox, especially back in the nuke days when it was like a hippy feeding frenzy out there.


Havent been to Nanoose, but have been to Victoria/Esquimalt, Nanaimo, Comox, Chilliwack (all military towns) and a hundred small towns across the province.  Now, are you talking about local residents and shop-keepers, or the local beatnik culture who picked mushrooms and went on environmental crusades, or the guys you ran into at bars who saw you as competition for local female attention?  Because yes the beatniks and civi guys at bars would definately be hostile.  I will admit seeing anti-military sentiments in three places: Victoria, Vancouver and Chilliwack.  Victoria and Vancouver are well known Liberal strongholds, but the rest of the province in mostly conservative or NDP.  Chilliwack is in the 'bible belt' and was probably influenced by decades of young trainees from the local base tearing into town, getting drunk, and getting their daughters pregnant.  That tends to annoy parents of said daughters in all parts of the country, not just BC.   I, and many of my fellow soldiers, also encountered this same attitude at numerous bars in Calgary, Edmonton, Lethbridge and Wainwright.  Does this mean that Alberta is anti-military? No, it means that male bar patrons dont like us military guys with steady paychecks and snappy uniforms stealing away the women they see as 'theirs'. (Very much a caveman image but thats how it is).  I also recall being in Ottawa and a local guy got into an argument with our guys over his perception of mis-use of military property.  Does this mean that Ottawa is anti-military? 



> I can remember some hippy freaking out at us "mortaring fish" in a creek one day (tossing tflashes into somewhere NO fish could live, much less spawn) because we were disturbing his poetry writing.


I'm sorry but this does little to support your argument.  A great many soldiers would also be angry at your throwing t-flashes into a creek and would not have hesitated to call the police, never mind how 'hippies' reacted.  I also knew a 3VP soldier back in the late 1980's who would get dressed in camoflauge and illegally hunt deer with pistols in the northern island area, and it didnt impress me then either.  Call me old-fashioned but I dont call that responsible soldiering.   



> When I was posted in Calgary, we got a nice welcome home from Yugo in 94 and nobody called me a babykiller or any other foolish thing while I was there.


No sarcasm or any negative comment on this - Im glad they were out there, you and the rest of our guys deserved it.  Personally, I've come 'home' to many areas of the country and the only reception I ever cared about, or got, was the missus waiting for me once I got off the plane.  Might have been nice to have seen a band or a senior officer for a change.  Oh wait, one time the RCMP and customs guys let us bring in our extra cigarettes for free because they didnt have the proper tobacco rates on hand (thats their story and they're sticking to it!).   

The one incident that struck me from pbi's comment was on the ferry.  Ive been on the BC Ferry hundreds of times.  Ive never had anyone ever come up to me and insult me or spit at me, and we used to travel in uniform across that ferry a lot, and Ive never seen it done to another military member.  I traveled by air many times across our country and never seen our cadets or service members abused at airports.  Its unfortunate that this group of cadets had to put up with this, and unfortunate for the adults escorting them who couldnt respond in an appropriate manner due to needing to set an example for the kids.  But not everyone who rides the BC Ferry is a BC citizen, most of the people are tourists from other parts of the country or other countries.  Or worse, they are part of the fringe culture who like to come to live in BC because they can get stoned with less chance of freezing to death in the woods overnight.  These people should not be viewed as typical BC inhabitants! 

(to) Sumup! - I may be biased or possibly just never ran into a person who acted that way towards me.  But I'm willing to hear evidence - Is there anyone else out there with negative experiences (anti-military sentiments) in BC?


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## paracowboy (23 May 2006)

> Sumup! - I may be biased or possibly just never ran into a person who acted that way towards me.  But I'm willing to hear evidence - Is there anyone else out there with negative experiences in BC?


you sum up, and do a search. There are literally pages of troops complaining about the shabby treatment they receive in BC, and the positive ones they receive in Alberta.


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## Centurian1985 (23 May 2006)

The 'sumup' was in reference to my rambling, not other posters.


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## Centurian1985 (23 May 2006)

Yes, I did a search on BC/B.C. + spit/face/shabby/hippy/treatment, and gave up after 20 pages with no positive results.  

Drafted an elaborate response, but in the end, what was the point? If people want to believe BC is shitty due to personal experience, they're not going to change their mind because I disagree no matter what argument I present.  

To all who had bad experiences here on the West Coast, hope your next visit is better in 2010, and hope you are enjoying yourselves where you are now.


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## Kat Stevens (24 May 2006)

Well, I spent 14 of my 23 years in Chilliwack.  The only time that anyone gave a flying rodents rectum about us was when the closure was announced and the gravy train pulled out, headed east to a place that welcomed us with open arms.  I was raised in BC too, and it pains me to say this.


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## Bartok5 (24 May 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Well, I spent 14 of my 23 years in Chilliwack.  The only time that anyone gave a flying rodents rectum about us was when the closure was announced and the gravy train pulled out, headed east to a place that welcomed us with open arms.  I was raised in BC too, and it pains me to say this.



What Kat said, and then some.  I grew up on Vancouver Island, and went on to serve 7 years in BC as both a Reservist and Regular.  The difference in attitude between there an my current posting in AB is quite literally night and day.  Suffice it to say that my interactions with the general populace of BC have done zero to garner my personal respect and goodwill.  AB has been the exact opposite.  

I certainly know where I am going to retire in a few years..... 

FWIW,


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## boehm (24 May 2006)

As a reservist who works in Vancouver, more specifically Kitsilano, I have had more then enough unfortunate experiences with ignorant and hatefull civvies. I have also a many forgettable experiences with ignorant and hatefull civvies in Victoria, Richmond, Whistler, riding the ferry between Vancouver and Victoria, and even a some outside of BC in Brandon and Winnipeg (while not in uniform oddly enough). Most of my bad experiences have usually involved hatefull or ignorant comments, dirty looks, insults, and mocking.

On the other hand I have had very pleasent experiences in the rest of BC and select places in Vancouver (mostly the restaurants and pubs where we frequent). While eating lunch in Watcom recently a middle aged gentleman actually said to me "Thank you for serving!" It was the first time in my military career anyone has actually thanked me for serving Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II Queen of Canada. In Maple Ridge while getting gas on my way home from work a young man offered to pay for my gas. Recently, in Tilco Lake on Ex Trident Fury, the locals were incredibly nice, they even lent us their canoe for the week. While on Ex Cougar Salvo in Kamloops this past March the locals were again very friendly, I had the pleasure of talking with a curious gentleman and his mentally handicapped son. They were both very happy and thankfull to speak with me and learn about the military; his son was incredibly excited when he got to take some pictures with me in front of an HL. I have had many other pleasent experiences with civvies in BC.

In my experience, I find that in general, the people in BC are very curious and friendly towards the military. The many bad experiences I have had with civvies were all located within a select few areas; areas that I happen to work in the most.


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## pbi (24 May 2006)

Well, well, light a match and walk away, and look what happens! Sorry about that.... I thought my little innuendo would be understood immediately for the broad stereotype that it was.

While Centurian (as is the professional wont of his trade) is quick to warn us against thoughtless generalization (thereby depriving me of 50% of the things I post here..), I didn't speak without experience. I served in 3PP at Work Point Barracks, Esquimalt, 1983-86, and in 1PP Calgary 1989-1997. As MarkC (whom I stomped the rainforests of the Island with at least once...) and others have commented, the Island was not a particularly pro-military place. In fact, I think that (short of York U) it represented the largest collection of anti-military crackpots in Canada. (I wish I had invested in a VW bus repair shop...)Alberta, on the other hand, was with very few and rare exceptions a welcoming place. Calgary was offering a warm reception to returning units before it became the fairly widesprad practice that it is today.

Cheers


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## medicineman (24 May 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> I was asking pbi, but since you replied...



In an open forum...

Well, we, as Canadians, do in fact have a right to disagree with eachother, so I guess we will.  I lived on the Island, went to high school and some university in Victoria, and played soldier on the Island, lower mainland and in the interior before moving on to the Regular Force.  I have to say (yes, it may sound like a generalization to some) that at best, a fair portion of the populace treated military personnel like they were the proverbial four headed alien - sounds like you lucked out and missed meeting all of these happy folk.  Not to say everyone was like that - due to the weird population pyramid in the Greater Victoria area (more like an hour glass), there were alot of older people that were invariably veterans; on the other hand, the bottom of the pyramid (hour glass) made up for it.  Or maybe it's the wacko magnet on my forehead...

The episode I alluded to with our T-Flashes was in fact an authorized CF exercise with a must expend order in an area we were authorized to do so in.  Enough said about that - other than the fact the connaisseur of granola concerned very rudely refused our assistance to either help him across the creek concerned and then our attempts to at least tell him the safe route across so he could talk at our OC - he ended up having a cold swim as a result.  BTW, this comes from someone who was in fact studying granola munching - I'm not going to start on some of my classmates or profs though.

I remember having a meal with my ex-wife's grandparents one day near Hope, when her grandfather announced to the people in the restaurant that I'd just returned from Croatia doing my bit there - with the look the waitress gave, I'm surprised the bill wasn't doubled or tripled.  I think you may be getting a picture of why some of us feel a little perturbed about some our fellow citizens, especially since it's a part of the country I really miss.  

There was a bright side for a bit in Vcitoria, (as my kids live there, I visit as often as I can) they had a (shortlived) program to support the military with certain merchants giving discounts of up to 15% for whatever services or items they were selling.  Alas, it didn't seem to last long though, maybe a year or two - guess either it didn't catch on or just wasn't popular amongst the Chamber of Commerce.  I can only speculate.


MM


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## Recon_Guardsman (25 May 2006)

Is York U that bad? Ill be there next year...


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## Trooper Hale (25 May 2006)

I heard a story about a WO2 just after Vietnam War. Some infantry blokes were marching through the city (Melbourne) on ANZAC day and a bunch of highly intelligent, respectable and obviously highly educated individuals started to throwing crap and screaming abuse. The men just kept marching, ANZAC day being our day of days they decided to ignore the ignorant bastards and not let them wreck the day.
The crowd started to push & shove and generally get pretty aggressive in their harrasment, I suppose the "Fascist Babykillers" werent acting as they should of been and ignoring the protesters just made them more angry.
Suddenly some bloke got past the cops and charged this WO. Without breaking step and with absolute drill precision, Sir's SLR flicked up in the classic buttstroke, caught the bloke under the chin and completely put him out cold. As i said, he hadnt even broken step and the boys just marched past this prone body sprawled on the side of the road. I reckons its a great example of how to handle protesters, I mean you'll get charged nowadays and kicked out, but its the thought that counts! And when i grow up and are perhaps one day issued with my own Warrant Officer moustache, I want to smash out protesters with an SLR too! Ok, maybe not, but i just thought i should throw in a story about physical aggression rather then just verbal. It might not actually be true but its still a good story


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## Bobbyoreo (25 May 2006)

I like it..lol..love that story....but on the other hand..its just not worth it. People well never change their opinions.


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## zipperhead_cop (25 May 2006)

Who is to say that a rifle in motion isn't part of a properly executed drill movement?  
"It just so happened that the timing was CRAZY!  How could you plan something like that?!?!"


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## Centurian1985 (25 May 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> Well, well, light a match and walk away, and look what happens! Sorry about that.... I thought my little innuendo would be understood immediately for the broad stereotype that it was.
> While Centurian (as is the professional wont of his trade) is quick to warn us against thoughtless generalization (thereby depriving me of 50% of the things I post here..), I didn't speak without experience. I served in 3PP at Work Point Barracks, Esquimalt, 1983-86, and in 1PP Calgary 1989-1997. As MarkC (whom I stomped the rainforests of the Island with at least once...) and others have commented, the Island was not a particularly pro-military place. In fact, I think that (short of York U) it represented the largest collection of anti-military crackpots in Canada. (I wish I had invested in a VW bus repair shop...)Alberta, on the other hand, was with very few and rare exceptions a welcoming place. Calgary was offering a warm reception to returning units before it became the fairly widesprad practice that it is today.



PBI, to do that job well, you have to look at both sides of the coin... as you said, my whole point was that the entire population is not like that.  Although I must admit Victoria has one of the flakiest populations in Canada.  Too many liberals, witches, environmentalists, and druggies who like that fact that they are unlikely to freeze to death if they pass out in the local woods.


----------



## Centurian1985 (25 May 2006)

medicineman said:
			
		

> The episode I alluded to with our T-Flashes was in fact an authorized CF exercise with a must expend order in an area we were authorized to do so in.  Enough said about that - other than the fact the connaisseur of granola concerned very rudely refused our assistance to either help him across the creek concerned and then our attempts to at least tell him the safe route across so he could talk at our OC - he ended up having a cold swim as a result.  BTW, this comes from someone who was in fact studying granola munching - I'm not going to start on some of my classmates or profs though.



Under the circumstanes my condemnation is misplaced.  Unfortunately knew too many guys who did things like this as a hobby outside of the uniform (i.e. the famous incident outside of a bar in donwtown Victoria, in the 1980's I think; and one guy I recall working with in Victoria liked to get cammed up and illegally hunt deer with a pistol in the northern island area).  Glad to hear you are a law-abiding man of the CADPAT.


----------



## medicineman (25 May 2006)

I remember the bar incident - the Barbary Coast IIRC.  The twit was gay bashing with an arty sim I believe.  I leave the name of their unit out of it.

MM


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## Trooper Hale (25 May 2006)

Haha, you can imagine the excuse cant you Zipperheap! " There i was, innocently marching down the street when i suddenly thought "I need to practice my buttstroke, right here, right now" And crash! Who would have thought someone choose that moment to head butt the solid wooden rear end of my SLR? I mean (To quote you) it was CRAZY!".
And so Remember gentlemen, we are members of Her Majesty's Commonwealth forces and are at all times under the public gaze, our behaviour must therefore reflect this...except if you can get the bastard alone and in a dark alley.
On a serious note, anyone who does what Medicineman and Centurian are alluding to doesnt deserve to be a part of any western military, i was quite serious about everything before the alleyway and thats the public perception we live by. If theres one bad apple the rest of them must be rotten, it brings a lot of shame on everyone when things like that happen


----------



## pbi (30 May 2006)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I remember the bar incident - the Barbary Coast IIRC.  The twit was gay bashing with an arty sim I believe.  I leave the name of their unit out of it.
> 
> MM



It was 3PPCLI in Victoria: I arrived at the battalion not too long after the incident. It wasn't a secret then, so we aren't doing any harm by discussing it now. It was considered (in those days...) as a big laugh in battalion. Today we might see it a bit differently.




> and one guy I recall working with in Victoria liked to get cammed up and illegally hunt deer with a pistol in the northern island area).



And, IIRC, this guy was 3PP also. If it is the guy I recall, I was Officer of the Court at his Court Martial in Esquimalt. His PMQ was found to be full of ammo, pyro, demolitions, weapon parts, etc. His story was that   he had been "training himself" to go work as a merc in South Africa.



> Although I must admit Victoria has one of the flakiest populations in Canada.  Too many liberals, witches, environmentalists, and druggies who like that fact that they are unlikely to freeze to death if they pass out in the local woods



Reminds me of an internal security briefing we got back in the mid 80's in 3PP. The RCMP CI guy giving it told us that BC had the biggest concentration of  dangerous or potentially dangerous groups of any part of Canada. If you consider that BC produced groups like Direct Action and the Squamish Five, he wasn't far wrong.

Cheers


----------



## dapaterson (30 May 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> The RCMP CI guy giving it told us that BC had the biggest concentration of  dangerous or potentially dangerous groups of any part of Canada.



Hmm... and what did he say after 3PP moved to Edmonton ?


----------



## pbi (30 May 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hmm... and what did he say after 3PP moved to Edmonton ?



"Good riddance". Ha. Ba-dump-bump. Try the meatloaf, folks, and don't forget to validate! 8)

Cheers


----------



## Danjanou (30 May 2006)

PBI,

FYI Direct Action and the Squamish Five were one and the same. They styled themsleves Direct Action after the French Action Directe as one of the founders Ann Hanso had worked on the fringes of that movement. It was the press IIRC that dubbed them the Squamish Five due to where they were arrested and the location of their "training area." 

Still a fairly good example of how extreme the fringe elements in our society can get and a bit embarrasing for our military when one considers where the other "leader" Brent Taylor received his training.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/4505.0.html


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## pbi (30 May 2006)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> PBI,
> 
> FYI Direct Action and the Squamish Five were one and the same. They styled themsleves Direct Action after the French Action Directe as one of the founders Ann Hanso had worked on the fringes of that movement. It was the press IIRC that dubbed them the Squamish Five due to where they were arrested and the location of their "training area."
> 
> ...



Right you are. I stand corrected.

Cheers


----------



## paul_h4554 (30 May 2006)

I'm at Brock University for Political Science... I can't even remember all of the hippy kids that try all kinds of lines on me. Then I ask them how what they're doing will make any difference in the world at all and they're all like "I'll be a productive member of society"

this is when I point out a few good stories that illustrate the opportunities that soldiers have to really really do something sweet when they go on operations like how the late sgt. Marc Leger really helped those people organise some representation so they could recieve aid, and the recent one about the kid with the tumor on his head in Afg.

they usually at least partially reconsider thier viewpoint when they realise how many dimensions we operate in these days.


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## 2VP (31 May 2006)

2 days ago I was going to a coffee shop in my "beloved" city, I was dressed in my DEUs and was driving a military van. I was heading to a ceremony to commemorate the marking of 36 graves of WW1 veterans who had lied in a cemetery forgotten for the last 50 years. As I walked into the coffee shop a bystander called me a "piece of s#$%" I asked him why he would say this, as he didn't know me. he said that he hated all things military, and all we did was go around the world killing people. I dismissed him as an uninformed jackass and moved off.  He then continued to berate me, spouting off all sorts of nonsensical crap. Unfortunately this is not an isolated incident around here, I hear stories of fellow service members that I work with, who are either getting spit on, vehicles vandalized, profanities hurled at them on a daily basis. this has been going on for quite some time. I have served (and still am) Canada for the past 23 years.I have been in cadets, the reserves and I am still serving in the Regs ----the point is, the majority of Canadians don't get it. They don't realize that what we are doing overseas,and  what we have done  historically, is come to the aid of those who can't protect themselves. I don't mean to simplify our missions, but whenever Canada has been asked to help, we've answered the call. 
After 20 plus years I should be used to this.....believe me I always try and "suck it up, and walk it off" but for some reason this day, it was too much. As a matter of fact it motivated me to came back to this site and register. I figure I would rant to those who have gone through similar circumstances or would understand my frustration.
The anti-war rhetoric that is flowing like cheap wine in the country is growing into anti-military behaviour which is abhorrent.  Most soldiers I know are anti-war, because they have either been there, or have been on the tail end of numerous conflicts which they have been called upon to pick up the pieces and find some way to bring stability to that war torn region.
Most Canadians pride themselves on being accepting, and part of a multi-cultural society. I guess that  doesn't apply if you are from the Military culture.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (31 May 2006)

Nothing a throat punch can't sort out.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (31 May 2006)

Giggidy, giggidy, gig-gi-dy!


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## pbi (31 May 2006)

2VP said:
			
		

> 2 days ago I was going to a coffee shop in my "beloved" city, I was dressed in my DEUs and was driving a military van. I was heading to a ceremony to commemorate the marking of 36 graves of WW1 veterans who had lied in a cemetery forgotten for the last 50 years. As I walked into the coffee shop a bystander called me a "piece of s#$%" I asked him why he would say this, as he didn't know me. he said that he hated all things military, and all we did was go around the world killing people. I dismissed him as an uninformed jackass and moved off.  He then continued to berate me, spouting off all sorts of nonsensical crap. Unfortunately this is not an isolated incident around here, I hear stories of fellow service members that I work with, who are either getting spit on, vehicles vandalized, profanities hurled at them on a daily basis.



I'm guessing by your "2VP" username that you're referring to Winnipeg? If so, my experience there 2002-2005 was just the opposite, by a very long mile, in just about every way. I still think that actions such as you decribe are in the minority, and carried out by people who probably already resent authority, law and order, anybody in a uniform, etc. It sounds to me like you acted in a reasonable way, but it was wasted on an unreasonable idiot.

Cheers


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## Bobbyoreo (31 May 2006)

That's sad. I've never had much of a problem in Winnipeg. I been on the bus in uniform and only once had some Osborne kid say something but that was it. Most people have been pretty good to me. Ask questions about things I've done or heading off to do. I find most Ignorance is brought on my lack of knowledge and when you tell people in a nice manner...they kind of back off.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (31 May 2006)

Actually it may be Brandon he is speaking of.


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## Cloud Cover (31 May 2006)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I remember the bar incident - the Barbary Coast IIRC.  The twit was gay bashing with an arty sim I believe.  I leave the name of their unit out of it.
> 
> MM



There was also the incident with the bikers from San Fran at Big Bad Johns in '86 and the big punch up at the Red Lion the night following the day the Navy finally got the key to the city for good behaviour.


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## pbi (31 May 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Actually it may be Brandon he is speaking of.



Could be, in which case I wouldn't know: I was only there a few times, briefly.

Cheers


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## Bobbyoreo (31 May 2006)

"Actually it may be Brandon he is speaking of."

Might just be a few people who are jealous they didn't get that nice easy good paying job on the base...ehehe!!! ;D


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## 1feral1 (1 Jun 2006)

Cabose said:
			
		

> .....I wont have to get up at five every morning this summer.



 ;D Anything past 0510h is a 'sleep in' for me, five days a week!

Cheers,

Wes


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## Hot Lips (1 Jun 2006)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> ;D *Anything past 0510h is a 'sleep in' for me, five days a week!*
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes


 I'm with you there Wes  ;D

HL


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## Centurian1985 (1 Jun 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> I'm guessing by your "2VP" username that you're referring to Winnipeg? If so, my experience there 2002-2005 was just the opposite, by a very long mile, in just about every way. I still think that actions such as you decribe are in the minority, and *carried out by people who probably already resent authority, law and order, anybody in a uniform, etc.* It sounds to me like you acted in a reasonable way, but it was wasted on an unreasonable idiot.
> Cheers



Although I never had a problem myself, I've heard of others getting this kind of abuse in Winnipeg.  However I must agree with pbi (see the words in bold above, nicely worded by teh way), it is present in every city.


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## Buford001 (1 Jun 2006)

Greetings everyone,

I am here with my husband posted in Winnipeg and he is away right now on course. A couple of weeks ago I had to go to Home Depot and someone in their truck cut me off. I honked my horn and he stopped his truck and did a u-turn and proceeded to follow me through the parking lot , I though he gave up so I parked the car and I was walking in between the cars and I looked over my shoulder and there he was still following me. I got to the end of the cars and he did his corner stopped in front of me and yelled out "All you Military people are murderers and should be shot and go to hell." Needless to say I was horrified, Home Depot escorted me back to my car and checked to see if the truck was any where in sight and if there was any damage to our car. Our car has veterans plates,support your troop magnetics and the base pass. My husband feels if he was in the car with me that individual would of not done what he did.

be well
Diane


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## GAP (1 Jun 2006)

Buford001 said:
			
		

> Our car has veterans plates,support your troop magnetics and the base pass. My husband feels if he was in the car with me that individual would of not done what he did.



I think your husband is right. The   idiot focused on the stuff on your car and ranted at you simply because you were a woman and he thought he could get away with it. 

Winnipeg is incredibility pro military. That does not mean that 100% know and understand the military, there are idiots out there in every town and city. We try to license and leash them when we find them, but....   ;D


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## a_majoor (1 Jun 2006)

Buford001, I hope you got that clown's licence plate and a good description to pass to law enforcement, that was not only stupid and revolting behavior, but also bordering on criminal (indeed his stated words could be construed as threatening language or even assault).

Sad to say, OPSEC and PERSEC would preclude expressions of support like veteran's licence plates, support your troops magnetic stickers etc. The base pass should be mounted on a piece of Plexiglas that you can put up on the window (if it is the stick on kind) when approaching the base, but otherwise concealed from view.

It is one thing to be proud of our institution and position in life, it is quite another thing to invite grief from cowardly individuals who have no self respect and intend to take it out on others.


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## Journeyman (1 Jun 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> expressions of support like veteran's licence plates, support your troops magnetic stickers etc.


Thread hijack: if you're reading seriously, skip to whoever posts next   

On the back of my Jeep, there are stickers from the Canadian Airborne Regiment and Harley-Davidson. No one has shouted abuse. I get thumbs-up from guys who may or may not be jumpers/bikers....sure, women swoon pretty regularly....and weak guys get miffed that their girls' swoon.....but so far, there's been nothing but support   ;D

(Oh, and I took the Queen's University sticker off, 'cause I just got tired of guys blowing kisses and hairy-legged women yelling something about ' Feminist Studies rocks' and male oppression or whatever)


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## Haggis (1 Jun 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Thread hijack: if you're reading seriously, skip to whoever posts next



I guess that'd be me.

Gotta give the readers somewhere to go after that little gem! :-*


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## Hot Lips (1 Jun 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Thread hijack: if you're reading seriously, skip to whoever posts next
> 
> On the back of my Jeep, there are stickers from the Canadian Airborne Regiment and Harley-Davidson. No one has shouted abuse. I get thumbs-up from guys who may or may not be jumpers/bikers....sure, women swoon pretty regularly....and weak guys get miffed that their girls' swoon.....but so far, there's been nothing but support   ;D
> 
> (Oh, and I took the Queen's University sticker off, *'cause I just got tired of guys blowing kisses and hairy-legged women yelling something about ' Feminist Studies rocks' and male oppression or whatever*)


LMAO...you're my idol JM...LMAO TFF

HL


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## TMM (1 Jun 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> (Oh, and I took the Queen's University sticker off, 'cause I just got tired of guys blowing kisses and hairy-legged women yelling something about ' Feminist Studies rocks' and male oppression or whatever)



How dare you JM! I swear I used VEET that day! ;D


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## pbi (2 Jun 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Sad to say, OPSEC and PERSEC would preclude expressions of support like veteran's licence plates, support your troops magnetic stickers etc. The base pass should be mounted on a piece of Plexiglas that you can put up on the window (if it is the stick on kind) when approaching the base, but otherwise concealed from view.
> 
> It is one thing to be proud of our institution and position in life, it is quite another thing to invite grief from cowardly individuals who have no self respect and intend to take it out on others.



a_major: If the situation in Canada has truly deteriorated to the point at which we need to take these kinds of actions, we're in trouble. However, without belittling Buford001's very frightening experience,  I just don't see any evidence that, beyond a few isolated mouth-breathers and other assorted idiots who exist in all communities, there is a need to take measures such as you recommend. What's next-not wearing our uniforms in public? Idiots such as Buford encountered exist everywhere: quite often (I bet...) you'll find they are unhappily ex-military, or failed to get into the military, or have some other beef: I don't think they represent any kind of significant force in society. I spent nearly four very happy years in Winnipeg, living in a middle class civilian neighbourhood. I often stopped at stores, Tim's, etc in uniform, or attended activities in the city in uniform. I never once received any negative comments, nor do I know anybody who did (of any rank or gender) who did, nor did I ever hear of anyboy's spouse being harassed. We need to guard against reverting into our old civvy-hating paranoia of ten or twenty years ago.

Cheers


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## paracowboy (2 Jun 2006)

Buford001 said:
			
		

> "All you Military people are murderers


that's when ol' para-poo drags buddy through his window with a manic grin and rolling eyes, spits t'baccy juice into his face and says in his best Jack Nicholson (circa Cuckoo's Nest / The Shining era) impression says "You're right! And you're next!"

Coward, who thought he could terrify a lone woman. It was probably the horn. Lots of weaker men can't handle a rebuke for their actions from a woman. He may have simply used your husbands' service as the most convenient target.

I hope you got info enough to give the Police a description. Or better: Rear Party.


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## Booked_Spice (2 Jun 2006)

That reminds me of an incident I wish I didn't have to think about it was not one of my better moments.

We were attending the Remembrance Day ceremonies in West Edmonton Mall. My husband and I were standing outside of our car because we were waiting for some of his buddies to come. This woman was in her car, I guess she figured that we were leaving and was waiting for our spot. Well my husband waved her on. She speed right past us and parked a couple of cars from us. As she was walking past my husband and myself she started screaming" What have you done for your country? Why should I remember you a*(&(*&(*" She continued to scream as my blood pressure was climbing. The rest of her rant I would not be able to put on this forum. ( however you could just imagine it) I took a step because I was going to hmm sort this out. Hubby calming put his hand on my shoulder and said it was not worth it. I was amazed because here he is standing in full military uniform and he is being calm when I was seeing RED.

All he said was it is a pity that Men and Women have died to give people like that the Freedom of Speech.

I am still mad.. I should of just punched her out.. then I would of been happy.


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## paracowboy (2 Jun 2006)

your husband did the right thing.

Most folks on here know that when I use word's like "para-poo" and "t'baccy" I'm being funny. I've taken insults, blows and spittle from civilians before. Just proves I'm better when I walk away.


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## Buford001 (2 Jun 2006)

It's exactly what the police told me when I called "he has the right of freedom of speech", MP's said it happened off base so they could not do anything, my husband is on course for 8 weeks so there is no rear party (not even a phone call). What's the old saying What doesn't kill you just makes you stronger.I do know not everyone is like that and more and more are showing the Military their support.

be well, be safe

Diane


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## GAP (2 Jun 2006)

It's not just the CF. Twice coming back to the States( in late sixties), I've had people call me baby killer, and all that good stuff. I had to look at them like a deer in the headlights, because I sure didn't expect it. Only once, in a men's washroom, was I able to "converse" with the "gentleman". It was very satisfying..... ;D


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## Booked_Spice (2 Jun 2006)

Well I am not a violent person, I guess I got so mad because I have never experienced anything like that before in my life.

But on the other hand( I know this is not where to post it) but needs to be mentioned. I was at superstore the a couple of weeks ago getting formula, and my daughter was talking to the man behind me telling him her Daddy is in Afghanistan and he is a soldier. Well when I got to the cashier I did not have a wallet it was in the car. At this point my youngest is screaming to high heaven. The gentleman who my daughter is talking to pulls out a 20 and pays for my formula. I kept telling him no sir please I will get my wallet. He looks at me and says it is the least he can do because my husband is doing so much for this country. I told him to come to the car and I will give him the money back and he said No, he felt better by helping out. He just looked at me and said Thank your husband for us. We Canadians do appreciate our armed forces. I had tears down my face because I have never seen such an act of courtesy before.


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## Trooper Hale (2 Jun 2006)

I'm in Vancouver at the moment, if you've read my posts you'll know i'm hoping/waiting for exchange with RCD. But i've found that Canadians are really good about people in the Forces, back home people are a lot more reserved, I've never got the whole "Thanks for serving" back home but we do get a few pats on the back at various times. Anyway, since i've been here i've introduced as being in the Australian army by the people i've been staying with and its only got good responses. I had my first hand shake and "Thank you for serving" last week, which really embarrased me. Ah well, i just thought i'd mention that one as well, Canadians (maybe because of the toll in Afghanistan) seem a lot more interested in people who are serving then Australians are back home. But thats just me


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## IrishCanuck (2 Jun 2006)

I've never known anyone that hasn't held the CF in the utmost respect.. this truly saddens me.


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## cpl-laing (2 Jun 2006)

Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in.... :warstory: :threat:


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## Gunner (2 Jun 2006)

PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in.... :warstory: :threat:



You've been watching too many movies.  Grow up.


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Jun 2006)

You beat me to the punch Gunner.  >


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## IrishCanuck (2 Jun 2006)

PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in.... :warstory: :threat:



Oh man... you have got to be kidding me. Do you even comprehend the seriousness of using a firearm? You have the ability to KILL someone. I'm interested in the Air Force.. but I can assume with almost 100% certainty the Army does NOT want trigger happy video game kids joining up.

Working as a student customs officer.. and hearing the new legislation in place to arm customs officers ( the chances of arming students is nil anyway) I still contemplated how I would feel with a sidearm attached to my hip, taking a more prominent role than the current baton and pepper spray we have now. It was very sobering, to realise that if I did not do my job with the utmost professionalism and tact, and even if I did so.. that in a brief few seconds I could have destroyed a life and untold other peoples lives in the process.

Sorry for the rant, but that sort of immature viewing of the Army, and the CF as a whole just pisses me off.


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## Conquistador (2 Jun 2006)

> Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in...


I was unaware that army cadets get "trigger time" in the field...


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## Haggis (3 Jun 2006)

Last December I went out to do some Christmas shopping.  I stopped by a little store in my hometown to pick up a gift for my wife.  While the shopkeeper was wrapping it, she began to talk about her husband and his daily commute.  I mentioned my daily commute to Ottawa and she asked if I worked for the government.  I answered, "Sort of.  Army actually."

She said that I should've told her that up front.  I asked "why" and she said "Because soldiers get 15% off in my store.  It's the least I can do."

Don't think the Canadian public doesn't appreciate us.  It's just that they're generally not very good at showing it.


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## TMM (3 Jun 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Don't think the Canadian public doesn't appreciate us.  It's just that they're generally not very good at showing it.



We are quiet about it, but that's how we are about everything, except the playoffs. When the CF ordered our software and the credit card had already been charged by an employee, I reversed the charge, called up the buyer and gave a discount. She was surprised and very appreciative. That by the way is the only branch of the Feds I give a discount too!

As Canadians, in general, we are laid back, wearing our hearts under our sleeves whilst you lot wear the flag on yours. We are not rah rah people but it doesn't bely the deep and quiet appreciation that exists.

Yes, you will always have the yahoos and anti-everythings(being a leftie myself I've met more than a few) but remember their loudness does not discount all the rest.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (3 Jun 2006)

IrishCanuck said:
			
		

> Oh man... you have got to be kidding me. Do you even comprehend the seriousness of using a firearm? You have the ability to KILL someone. I'm interested in the Air Force.. but I can assume with almost 100% certainty the Army does NOT want trigger happy video game kids joining up.
> 
> Working as a student customs officer.. and hearing the new legislation in place to arm customs officers ( the chances of arming students is nil anyway) I still contemplated how I would feel with a sidearm attached to my hip, taking a more prominent role than the current baton and pepper spray we have now. It was very sobering, to realise that if I did not do my job with the utmost professionalism and tact, and even if I did so.. that in a brief few seconds I could have destroyed a life and untold other peoples lives in the process.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but that sort of immature viewing of the Army, and the CF as a whole just pisses me off.



Lighten up, Francis.  If the customer asks for it, the customer gets it.  Sorting people out isn't that complicated.


----------



## the 48th regulator (3 Jun 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Lighten up, Francis.  If the customer asks for it, the customer gets it.  Sorting people out isn't that complicated.



Uhmm Zip,

I think the paddy canuck was kinda of bang on in his rant to this Francis,



			
				PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in.... :warstory: :threat:



Laing, the only trigger time you will get in the field is with the remote on the chesterfield....

dileas

tess


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## zipperhead_cop (3 Jun 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Uhmm Zip,
> 
> I think the paddy canuck was kinda of bang on in his rant to this Francis,



Oh, I'm all for taking firearms seriously.  It just seemed like I.C. was getting all goose-bumpy thinking about the implications of deploying his baton or pepper spray.  No doubt he is a fine lad, however the Customs student program is a ill thought, out dated donkey show as a whole.  I stand to be corrected.


----------



## cobbler (3 Jun 2006)

Trooper Hale said:
			
		

> I'm in Vancouver at the moment, if you've read my posts you'll know i'm hoping/waiting for exchange with RCD. But i've found that Canadians are really good about people in the Forces, back home people are a lot more reserved, I've never got the whole "Thanks for serving" back home but we do get a few pats on the back at various times. Anyway, since i've been here i've introduced as being in the Australian army by the people i've been staying with and its only got good responses. I had my first hand shake and "Thank you for serving" last week, which really embarrased me. Ah well, i just thought i'd mention that one as well, Canadians (maybe because of the toll in Afghanistan) seem a lot more interested in people who are serving then Australians are back home. But thats just me



Where abouts in Australia areyou from.

Because I find in Melbourne there is a general dis-interest in the ADF other than on Anzac day and when it comes time to hand out a new shipbuilding contract. I guessthat this ties in with Melbourne's leftist, socialist, and isolationist leanings.

Whereas I find in other places, particuarly Tassie and Queensland there is more of an appreciation of military personnel.


----------



## IrishCanuck (4 Jun 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm all for taking firearms seriously.  It just seemed like I.C. was getting all goose-bumpy thinking about the implications of deploying his baton or pepper spray.  No doubt he is a fine lad, however the Customs student program is a ill thought, out dated donkey show as a whole.  I stand to be corrected.



My consideration was regarding the use of deadly force in form of a sidearm. After thinking about it, I thought if one day I was in that situation ( as a full time police or customs officer) that I would be able to pull the trigger, my whole point was that it is not a game, not something to be taken off-handedly. It has real implications.

Sorry if my rant rubbed you the wrong way


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## Trooper Hale (5 Jun 2006)

Yeah, i'm actually in Melbourne and i reckon your right about the disinterest about us. I like disinterest though, getting told "Thank you for serving" i find to be a bit embarrasing and its never aggressive. Although i am a proud Melbournian and a closet lefty whats the stuff about the isolationist? We'r as isolationist as any other city in Australia. Tasmania would be isolationist, they've got a lot of water to prove it!


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## cobbler (5 Jun 2006)

Disinterest is fine, but it's when people have the mentality of "whats the point" or "the ADF does nothing" that I have a problem with. Luckily such thinkers are few and far between, even down here in sunny Melbourne  .


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## 1feral1 (5 Jun 2006)

PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in.... :warstory: :threat:



After a very LONG day at work (I am on yet another course, much a repeat of a previous LAV related one - hence our bordem), this comment 'above' made my day. Thanks for the laugh mate, but sorry its at your own expense. I am laughing at you, not with you. Want some trigger time? Go to the video arcade.

I feel a burst from a LMG or C7 for that matter, would make you crap your pants.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Lost_Warrior (6 Jun 2006)

> Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in....



...wins *"Most quoted phrase in such a short time"* award  ;D


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## Centurian1985 (7 Jun 2006)

PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> Man i can't wait to get out into the feild,and get some trigger time in.... :warstory: :threat:



Blasts have already been directed your way, so I wont comment further on that part.

I will point out that this is not an uncommon statement from people who seldom, or have never, shot a weapon before.   Is there a 'rush' in blasting off a hundred rounds from a weapon when you first get ahold of one? Yes.  Do young soldiers look forward to firing live ammunition?  Yes.  However, this is exactly why young soldiers go through training and work with experienced soldiers before deploying overseas - so that the 'rush' is lost by acclimation, they realize the immense responsibility of operating weapons, and what happens if you use a weapon inappropriately.  In they end they may join the experienced ranks of those who own weapons and take up hunting, not for meat and clothing, but for the pleasure of firing weapons, demonstrating their skill and expertise, and hanging out with others who share the same interests.


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## Bobbyoreo (7 Jun 2006)

That and they realise the time spent clean ain't worth the trigger time!!! lol ;D


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## Lost_Warrior (7 Jun 2006)

> That and they realise the time spent clean ain't worth the trigger time!!! lol Grin



So true.  At the begining of basic, I couldn't wait to get my hands on a C7.   By the end of basic, I coudn't wait to hand it back in.   Just another piece of kit to carry around and clean  ;D


----------



## Thompson_JM (7 Jun 2006)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> So true.  At the begining of basic, I couldn't wait to get my hands on a C7.   By the end of basic, I coudn't wait to hand it back in.   Just another piece of kit to carry around and clean  ;D



Yup.... Last Brigade Ex my philosophy was if i could avoid fireing it I would....

Not get me wrong... im all for practicing Fire and movement and all that Jazz, but when i get 10 rounds for an entire weekend, i know im not gonna be in too many firefights... plus we were only there to support the Infantry for Troop lifts and the like...

and lastly, I had an Uber-Keener Pte who was more then happy to shoot for me... So I gave him some of my ammo....

Live Fire on the other hand.... Im all for mucking up my weapon with carbon and dirt.... since at that point im getting alot more out of it, training wise...


----------



## Lost_Warrior (7 Jun 2006)

> but when i get 10 rounds for an entire weekend



Thats when you dip into the infinite supply of *Militia Rounds*  :


----------



## GO!!! (7 Jun 2006)

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> Live Fire on the other hand.... Im all for mucking up my weapon with carbon and dirt.... since at that point im getting alot more out of it, training wise...



Well, is'nt that a great attitude towards training!

Imagine if the whole military ran that way!

Pilot: Simulator? F*** that - I only do real aircraft - let the new guy do it.

Medic: Practice needles/stitches? Forget it - I don't want to get bloody unless I'm in the $hit.

Jumper: Para refreshers? Nope - I'm not getting sweaty without an airplane to jump from!

As the saying goes - a gallon of sweat will save a pint of blood. If you are not taking your opportunities to train (even with the restricted budgets that *all* units have) then you should just quit. Your age, component and trade soundly preclude you from the "been there done that" demographic, so you saying that you are too lazy to clean a weapon fired with blanks, but live fire is OK, is pretty weak.

The rest of the army fires blanks before live - what makes you different?


----------



## Trooper Hale (9 Jun 2006)

Aint nothing like a good blank "Yippee" shoot! Especially with a Minimi (C9) or a MAG 58(C6). You just lie there, dig it into your shoulder and enjoy it as much as possible. Theres no pressure to shoot a certain grouping or to pass anything, you just take your position and attack the "enemy", trying to prove that you know your job. Sure you've got to clean the gear and it takes ages but having a good ambush, whether your being "shot" at or your doing the shooting makes up for it in spades. Plus its not like cleaning is the worst chore in the world, you just switch to "auto pilot" and do it like you've done it countless times before.

I mean where else can you have bad guys shooting at you, you doing your job AND with no chance of actually dying? We could discuss it with the Afghans but i'm pretty they'll stick with their live rounds. Blank shooting is usually a blast, its great training and good fun. And anyway, its not as if your not going to clean your weapon anyway!


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## paracowboy (9 Jun 2006)

Trooper Hale said:
			
		

> Aint nothing like a good blank "Yippee" shoot! Especially with a Minimi (C9) or a MAG 58(C6). You just lie there, dig it into your shoulder and enjoy it as much as possible. Theres no pressure to shoot a certain grouping or to pass anything, you just take your position and attack the "enemy", trying to prove that you know your job. Sure you've got to clean the gear and it takes ages but having a good ambush, whether your being "shot" at or your doing the shooting makes up for it in spades. Plus its not like cleaning is the worst chore in the world, you just switch to "auto pilot" and do it like you've done it countless times before.
> 
> I mean where else can you have bad guys shooting at you, you doing your job AND with no chance of actually dying? We could discuss it with the Afghans but i'm pretty they'll stick with their live rounds. Blank shooting is usually a blast, its great training and good fun. And anyway, its not as if your not going to clean your weapon anyway!


what he said, but without the accent, and with more cussin'.


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## 1feral1 (10 Jun 2006)

Trooper Hale said:
			
		

> Aint nothing like a good blank "Yippee" shoot! Especially with a Minimi (C9) or a MAG 58(C6). You just lie there, dig it into your shoulder and enjoy it as much as possible. Theres no pressure to shoot a certain grouping or to pass anything, you just take your position and attack the "enemy", trying to prove that you know your job. Sure you've got to clean the gear and it takes ages but having a good ambush, whether your being "shot" at or your doing the shooting makes up for it in spades. Plus its not like cleaning is the worst chore in the world, you just switch to "auto pilot" and do it like you've done it countless times before.
> 
> I mean where else can you have bad guys shooting at you, you doing your job AND with no chance of actually dying? We could discuss it with the Afghans but i'm pretty they'll stick with their live rounds. Blank shooting is usually a blast, its great training and good fun. And anyway, its not as if your not going to clean your weapon anyway!



Hey Hales, we got Rat Rowe up doing ASLAV instruction. Do you know him? Off to the Fd til the 24th on Monday.

Cheers,

Wes

PS - Its great to be back in QLD BTW  ;D


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## Thompson_JM (11 Jun 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Well, is'nt that a great attitude towards training!
> 
> Imagine if the whole military ran that way!
> 
> ...



I stand correcected... after talking to a much more qualified individual then myself from this site, he explained to me the benefits of even fireing one round of blank on ex.   and they do indeed outwiegh any negatives of cleaning the weapon. I fell into the Lazy CSS stereotype for a moment there.... hopefully it wont happen again.

Cheers


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## a_majoor (12 Jun 2006)

Trooper Hale said:
			
		

> Aint nothing like a good blank "Yippee" shoot! Especially with a Minimi (C9) or a MAG 58(C6). You just lie there, dig it into your shoulder and enjoy it as much as possible. Theres no pressure to shoot a certain grouping or to pass anything, you just take your position and attack the "enemy", trying to prove that you know your job. Sure you've got to clean the gear and it takes ages but having a good ambush, whether your being "shot" at or your doing the shooting makes up for it in spades. Plus its not like cleaning is the worst chore in the world, you just switch to "auto pilot" and do it like you've done it countless times before.
> 
> I mean where else can you have bad guys shooting at you, you doing your job AND with no chance of actually dying? We could discuss it with the Afghans but i'm pretty they'll stick with their live rounds. Blank shooting is usually a blast, its great training and good fun. And anyway, its not as if your not going to clean your weapon anyway!



Once MILES and WES gear gets into wide circulation, even firing blanks will require a bigger dose of fieldcraft and tactical smarts! Train like you intend to fight: if you use the "Lebanon unload" on an FTX what do you think will happen when you have to return fire for real in theater?


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## Trooper Hale (16 Jun 2006)

Do i know him!?!?!?! Bloody hell I know him! Bloke threatened to charge to on ANZAC day unless i got my hair cut, need less to say he was WAY to pissed to remember the next day and forgot about my little infringement (its short now thats for sure!). Sargeant Rowe is a very professional and inspirational gentleman (For a RI that is!) and i've a lot of respect for the bloke. Dead good bloke! Whats he teaching you? And does he have you marching around the compound like he had some of the boys of drivers course doing? I doubt it! He's fantastic! That little moustache (it grows in only a few days) and that earnest impression make him one of the best instructors i've ever had. Hows the heat in Queensland boss? Petawawa is bloody unreal right now, 26 last few days and today (my first day of work, papers came through!!!) i actually cracked a sweat! I tried to hide it but yeah, beautiful weather here.
Hope the Sarge is treating you well, Rat Rowe is a God to us, keep that in mind, he's old school!
Hales


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## Pte Joker (18 Jun 2006)

funny thing I'm a Army cadet here in Oakville Ontario so i was walking to the Lorne Scots armories and some girl was like wheres you guns...wheres your boom boom LOL i said were Army cadets not soldiers


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## zipperhead_cop (18 Jun 2006)

Burgoyne said:
			
		

> funny thing I'm a Army cadet here in Oakville Ontario so i was walking to the Lorne Scots armories and some girls was like wheres you guns...wheres your boom boom LOL i said were Army cadets not soldiers



See, to me there would have been an obvious answer, but maybe you were best to be polite.   ;D


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## Hot Lips (18 Jun 2006)

Zipperhead_cop   ...lmao

HL


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## zipperhead_cop (18 Jun 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Zipperhead_cop   ...lmao
> 
> HL



Oh, yeah, you know what I'm getting at, HL!


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## Kirkhill (18 Jun 2006)

Corrupting the youth of the nation Zipperhead?  Trying to insure job security?  ;D


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## zipperhead_cop (18 Jun 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Corrupting the youth of the nation Zipperhead?  Trying to insure job security?  ;D



Hey, I just know what my comeback would have been at that age.  Actually, I guess I never really grew out of that.  LOCKER ROOM MENTALITY FOREVER, BABY!!


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## canadianblue (18 Jun 2006)

I've just stopped telling people I'm in the military so their won't be as much ignorance to deal with, from now on all I say is that I'm a farm help.


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## zipperhead_cop (18 Jun 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I've just stopped telling people I'm in the military so their won't be as much ignorance to deal with, from now on all I say is that I'm a farm help.



Heh, I do that too sometimes.  If I'm in a new place, if someone asks me what I do, I often tell them that I am a trash collector for the City of Windsor.  Actually, it isn't really telling a lie, is it?


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## Pte Joker (19 Jun 2006)

i always walk to the Armories and sometimes people just randomly come up and say stuff like this one time i was standing out front of the Armory i was early and some old lady was walking with her husband and asked him why the Army was at the post office ;D and a bunch of other stuff happend that day to all having something to do with cadets and


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## pbi (19 Jun 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I've just stopped telling people I'm in the military so their won't be as much ignorance to deal with, from now on all I say is that I'm a farm help.



I just roll my eyes back into my head, drool a bit, and fall slowly forward. I find this reduces irritating questions by quite a bit.

Cheers


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