# Attack at Glasgow Airport



## Trinity (30 Jun 2007)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/30/london.alert/index.html

reproduced under fair dealings/trade act... thing..


> LONDON, England (CNN) -- A burning car has been rammed into the terminal building of Glasgow Airport in Scotland, triggering a new terror scare with the UK already on alert over the discovery of two cars loaded with the explosive materials in London.
> 
> 
> Police and witnesses described an SUV-style vehicle in flames being driven at full speed towards the building.
> ...



edit - cleaning up the cut and paste


----------



## Yrys (30 Jun 2007)

same subject (BBC) :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/6257194.stm


----------



## Mike Baker (30 Jun 2007)

Hmm, one has to wonder, are these the terrorists who graduated that terror camp in Pakistan, and are the ones who had to go to the UK to attack them? We may never know this though. Of course, this may be totally separate from the bombs and such.


----------



## Pikache (30 Jun 2007)

Apparently there's something going on at Ibiza in Spain. (How dare they ruin party spot in the world?)

Dunno if it's terrorist loonies, or just random whackjobs.


----------



## Yrys (30 Jun 2007)

In Spain, it's the ETA ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6256944.stm

pictures: Glasgow alert

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/6257388.stm


----------



## Brockvegas (30 Jun 2007)

Hey guys, before we go and put this in the box marked "Terrorism" lets get the whole story. Right now it's just a vehicle that was on fire hitting a building, then have it's gas tank pop from the heat. Had there been explosives on board, there would have been a lot more damage.

And let's face it, a tank of gasoline tucked under the arse end of an 1800 kilogram vehicle doesn't make the most effective "terrorist bomb".


----------



## Trinity (30 Jun 2007)

Brockvegas said:
			
		

> Hey guys, before we go and put this in the box marked "Terrorism" lets get the whole story. Right now it's just a vehicle that was on fire hitting a building,



Uh huh

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/30/london.alert/index.html


> ibed an SUV-style vehicle *in flames being driven at full speed toward the building.*
> 
> Witness Jackie Kennedy told the BBC that* a man got out of the car, went to the back and pulled out a can of fuel, which he poured on himself and ignited.
> *
> "The guy was in flames and seemed to be enjoying himself," Kennedy said.



This.... after two POORLY constructed car bombs the day before...  
Who's to say this isn't just another poorly constructed bomb.

It's no accident.  At the very least a political statement, very worst it was meant to kill.
I think Terrorism at the moment is a fair application of the word.


----------



## 1feral1 (30 Jun 2007)

Brockvegas said:
			
		

> And let's face it, a tank of gasoline tucked under the arse end of an 1800 kilogram vehicle doesn't make the most effective "terrorist bomb".



Do you want to be within 0-50 metres from when it cooks, or walking by it with children or an infant in your arms????  Not me!

It is effective, it puts fear in people, and if it kills one person, its done its job.


Wes


----------



## KevinB (30 Jun 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Do you want to be within 0-50 metres from when it cooks, or walking by it with children or an infant in your arms????  Not me!
> 
> It is effective, it puts fear in people, and if it kills one person, its done its job.
> 
> ...



Big +1 to Wes.

The biggest weapon terrorists have is FEAR, they get it by any attack that the media covers...


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Jun 2007)

There's a bunch of stuff on the net just now but Hot Air seems to be doing a good job of keeping up. 

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/06/30/breaking-car-on-fire-drives-into-glasgow-airport-terminal/

This report from "The Scotsman" newspaper (via Hot Air) is interesting - the Police are looking for an Iraqi who has just escaped the monitoring of a control order 11 days ago.  Control Orders are being used to detain at large undesirables that the government wants to deport but the courts won't let them.  They were introduced because the courts said that detention was too severe as well.

Edit:  Deleting all the rest - waaaay too much confusion in the reports.


----------



## Brockvegas (30 Jun 2007)

My apologies folks. Wes, Trinity, you are both 100% correct.

My post was in response to the news story quoted at the begining of this thread, without doing any research on the details myself.

Now that I've made myself look like a complete jackass, I'm going to see my doctor about having this foot removed from my mouth.


----------



## armyvern (1 Jul 2007)

And just hitting the news now ...

Authorities have just made arrests in connection with yesterdays incident at the airport ...

will post links when available.


----------



## armyvern (1 Jul 2007)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6258062.stm


----------



## LakeSup (1 Jul 2007)

It may be telling that these guys are so incompetent.....50 gal of gas in an SUV?   (that's a typical Escalade), and nails?   What they will get is a burning car with red hot hails sitting in it.  No more dangerous than a Ford Pinto. And, if they want to make these suicide attacks, THEY will be the only ones killed.  Better for them to be  coming out of the woodwork doing these incompetent, failed attacks than planning bigger ones.....also we get to nab some to interrogate.


----------



## KevinB (1 Jul 2007)

They apparently had partially full jeffy cans rapped with nails (the airspace in the Jerry makes the fumes and they explode)
  Still spectacular to the reactions -- and next time they will use Diesel and Ammonia Nitrate Fertilizer...
But that said -- while an Arab can buy a bit of gas and siphon it out and go around getting gas -- how conspicuous do you think a person of Middle Eastern decent will be at the local UFA buying a few hundred kilo's of Fertilizer and then pouring it in to a diesel tank and making a slurry out of it?


----------



## LakeSup (1 Jul 2007)

They apparently had partially full jeffy cans rapped with nails (the airspace in the Jerry makes the fumes and they explode

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Even still, _relatively _ small explosive energy and , within the steel car body, likely not the best for getting the nails outside under any sort of velocity.   Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to  see such incompetence....and the fact that the authorities are right on top of tings with no innocent ppl hurt.
But it does make you wonder:  are these just independent "I'm mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore Brit radicals doing things on their own?   or is this a signal that the UK based terrorists are either just plain incompetent or can't get a hold of anything more dangerous?

Anyway, with the arrests, I hope they get good int.


----------



## KevinB (1 Jul 2007)

I think its a sign that the Al-Q ver 4.1 is here.  Loosely controlled entities with a general guiding point -- GO OUT AND KILL CHRISTIANS.  They dont have a lot of technical know how, just desire.   The older ealier versions dont favour rash attacks, and do not conduct attacks unless they have a high probability of sucess, AND very importantly, they will be as spectacular an attack as previous, or greater.  Part of the problem with the sucess of the 9/11 attacks is that its a hell of a hard act to follow.  What do you do for an encore?

So while the early cells have more funding and training, they are also more cautious, waiting for the "big hit", the more brash later groups, go out and still it up on their own.

They could have killed more people with their car alone -- but "deranged man kills 17 with car" does not get the same headlines as flaming wreckage even with less fatalities.


----------



## LakeSup (1 Jul 2007)

From Juan Cole (OK, OK, he's a lefty):

"Recent reports I hear at CNN suggest to me that suicide was more central to this Glasgow operation than usual in such attacks. The perpetrators are said to have doused themselves with gasoline. This was not in fact like Iraq, where the idea was to take as many Shiites with them as possible. Here, their methods were not in fact likely to cause much or any loss of life among others (gasoline is not a high explosive) but were guaranteed to kill them. It is said that they resisted being rescued.

I've learned, though, it is dangerous to read too much into initial reports."


----------



## Old Sweat (1 Jul 2007)

I6 may be right, but it is too early to tell for sure. If he is correct, this is really bad news. The threat has no fear of, in fact welcomes death, especially if he or she can kill some infidels at the same time.

We can all work out the advantages for the bad guys. Frankly I can't think of too many good points for our side in this. The question is how does the government in a liberal, democratic society cope with this sort of campaign?


----------



## GAP (1 Jul 2007)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I6 may be right, but it is too early to tell for sure. If he is correct, this is really bad news. The threat has no fear of, in fact welcomes death, especially if he or she can kill some infidels at the same time.
> 
> We can all work out the advantages for the bad guys. Frankly I can't think of too many good points for our side in this. The question is how does the government in a liberal, democratic society cope with this sort of campaign?




Frankly, we have to lose some of our "liberal democratic" tomfoolery....we (the west) have bent over backwards in the last 30 or so years to accommodate an influx of different cultures/beliefs, but we try to maintain the fiction we are an open society....we are not...we are basically a Judea Christian society and everything is orientated around that....it's time we got back to basics and said that if you do not wish to live within our society and its' rules and laws and precepts, then move on...


----------



## TN2IC (1 Jul 2007)

WarmAndVertical said:
			
		

> It may be telling that these guys are so incompetent.....50 gal of gas in an SUV?   (that's a typical Escalade), and nails?   What they will get is a burning car with red hot hails sitting in it.  No more dangerous than a Ford Pinto. And, if they want to make these suicide attacks, THEY will be the only ones killed.  Better for them to be  coming out of the woodwork doing these incompetent, failed attacks than planning bigger ones.....also we get to nab some to interrogate.




I know the Germans are ahead of us with their cars....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh0ZsehhJHk


Now back to your Regular Programming.

Regards,
TN2IC


----------



## old medic (1 Jul 2007)

This is the better pinto / german vehicle clip:  >

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glcj0szvevU


----------



## Old Sweat (1 Jul 2007)

Whether the attack is incompetent or not, it achieves its strategic aim. It dominated the news for hours and caused a major flap on at least two continents. The question whether or not the QM has to indent for another few sets of _Virgins, 72, for the use_ of is another matter, and of less importance.


----------



## time expired (2 Jul 2007)

Latest news states that two of the perps. were doctors working for the NHS,
no wonder that they couldn't put a bomb together.All the people arrested 
so far were foreigners,makes one wonder about the immigration policies,as 
if you were not already wondering
                                       Regards


----------



## KevinB (2 Jul 2007)

I'm curious as to when they will start in Canada.  Englands immagrations policies are not any more lax than Canadian, and I beleive that due to the British experiences in Northern Ireland their anti-terrorist capabilties are a little more refined than in Canada.

 I often wonder of ol' OBL specifically (and under the table)  has told his guys not to act up in Canada, less they polarize our society into doing something they are currently apathetic on.


----------



## Edward Campbell (2 Jul 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to when they will start in Canada.  Englands immagrations policies are not any more lax than Canadian, and I beleive that due to the British experiences in Northern Ireland their anti-terrorist capabilties are a little more refined than in Canada.
> 
> I often wonder of ol' OBL specifically (and under the table)  has told his guys not to act up in Canada, less they polarize our society into doing something they are currently apathetic on.



Agreed.

We are a soft target _par excellence_.  We have our own large, growing and apparently self sustaining Muslim underclass: disaffected young men with inadequate educations, no challenging, well paid job prospects, who are easy pickings for radical _imans_ and _sheiks_ in our increasingly *culturally* isolated (there's that word again!) suburban, neighbourhood mosques.  We are fighting, hard, in Afghanistan.  They're being taught to hate us.

Why hold back, unless they (al Qaeda _et al_) think the media and the 'chattering classes' have already won the 'hearts and minds' battle for them?


----------



## 1feral1 (2 Jul 2007)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Agreed.
> 
> They're being taught to hate us.



+1 E.R.!

Same thing going on here in Australia, more so in Sydney's radical west, and in Melbourne. Truly dangerous time ahead. ASIO and the AFP are constantly watching, bugging phones, etc.


Regards,

Wes


----------



## Groucho (2 Jul 2007)

Just after this attack I was to fly back to Scotland  (12 hours) after spending a couple of days in Acton ( where my brother lives). I was over to pick up my youngest niece (09years old) and my nephew (11 years old). We where to land at Glasgow but had go to another airport. The public are taking the extra security as some that has to be done for the most part. If the idea was to  frighten the Scots the attack was a complete failure. We now have to wait until the trials.


----------



## George Wallace (2 Jul 2007)

Well, I am quite impressed with the speed at which suspects are being rounded up by the authorities.  Eight are now in custody.


----------



## 1feral1 (2 Jul 2007)

The BBC is saying two are doctors?? One from Jordan, the other from Iraq, and of course one oftheir familes is saying ' he is a wonderful man, and would never do such a thing', ya right, how many times have we heard that crap.

I hope the one with the burns is in lots of pain today!

Glad to see 'the peaceful' religion at work again.

Wes


----------



## tomahawk6 (2 Jul 2007)

Up to 5 doctors.One bomb was targeting the hospital.Explode devices at the airport and when casualties are sent to hospital then you have a follow up bomb attack.SOP for the jihadists.


----------



## 1feral1 (2 Jul 2007)

Savages!

The plot thickens.

Never underestimate these bastards!


Cheers,

Wes


----------



## time expired (3 Jul 2007)

Wes,its getting closer,keep your head down.Arrested a doctor in Oz. trying to leave
Brisbane on a one way ticket, had some connection with those arrested in the UK.
The new British Interior Minister gave a statement concerning the fight on terror,
BBC noted with admiration that she did not mention Muslims once in her speech.
Have they gone mad!.
                      Regards


----------



## Edward Campbell (3 Jul 2007)

Culture still matters!

I said, earlier, that: *“ We have our own large, growing and apparently self sustaining Muslim underclass: disaffected young men with inadequate educations, no challenging, well paid job prospects, who are easy pickings for radical imans and sheiks in our increasingly culturally isolated (there's that word again!) suburban, neighbourhood mosques.”*

Where these doctors come from?   They hardly qualify as people with “inadequate educations” and lacking “challenging, well paid” jobs, do they?  How to explain them?

Culture.

They have been through a cultural looking glass, so to speak.  Some, many or even most of the core cultural values they learned, as children of better off families in relatively sophisticated countries like Jordan and Iraq (yes, Iraq was amongst the most ‘sophisticated’ and secular societies in the region), were tossed into their faces in Britain.

Consider a couple of examples:

1. They had to work side-by-side, on a collegial basis with women doctors – including *Muslim* women doctors or, worse, in subordinate positions to those women.  This is contrary to what they *believe* to be their god’s law – it isn’t, actually, anything of the sort, so I’m told, but Arab/Persian *culture* values women as chattels, property and the cultural values have passed into religion.

2. Then there are the Jews … a constant _problem_ for many, many Muslims.  Despite Islam’s historic _tolerance_ towards Judaism and Christianity – quite benign compared, overall, to Christianity’s _toleration_ of Islam and Judaism – modern anti-Semitism has been whipped up throughout the region over the past 60 years.  Anti-Semitism was, probably, no more pronounced in the Middle East in, say, 1920 than it was in modern, _liberal_ Germany at the same time.  We saw what an aggressive anti-Semitic propaganda campaign could do in Germany; the same campaign (“cleanse the _umma_ of the Jews”) is being waged in the Middle East today – we should not be surprised that educated young men would fall victim to it’s siren song; they did in Germany in the 1930s.  It must be a shock to have to work side-by-side with Jews.  For complex social-economic and cultural reasons Western Jews have placed a very high value on education with the consequence that they are statistically _over-represented_ in the professions, including medicine.  Imagine the difficulty of being required to work, peacefully and cooperatively, beside a person you really feel you ought to kill.

Islam does not, so far as I know, require that women wear burkas and remain illiterate child-bearing _machines_; nor is it, relative to Christianity, overly anti-Semitic.  But, traditional Arab/Persian *culture* does see women and chattels and modern Arab/Persian *culture* is awash in virulent anti-Semitic propaganda.

So, despite having ‘advanced’ educations, which is not quite the same as being _well_ educated, and despite being from sophisticated Middle Eastern societies these doctors might not have been willing, much less able to ‘escape’ their culture.


----------



## Command-Sense-Act 105 (3 Jul 2007)

Edward, 

Thanks for that fantastic post.  You have successfully distilled 400 pages of Bernard Lewis down into a clear, easily readable and understood reason for some of the madness.

Those of us who've read the 400 pages of Lewis thank you for helping to spread the word.

Here is some more to think about -http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010080


----------



## Old Sweat (3 Jul 2007)

Edward,

Excellent summary. Now, what about an alternative explanation that, according to news reports, is being explored in the UK? This scenario is that they were a sleeper cell. In favour of that is that the members did nothing to draw attention to themselves - apparently no attendance at radical mosques; no visits to Islamist bookstores; and no statements that would indicate any extreme views. Against that is their sheer ineptitude at something as relatively simple as rigging car bombs and attacking an airport. After all, the July 2005 lot, who perhaps were a cut below them on the demographic scale, could build bombs and gather material.

For the sleeper cell scenario to work, they would have had to been radicalized prior to their move to the UK. This implies a degree of sophistication; however it is not too far off the situation of the 9/11 terrorists, whose demographic lay somewhere between the two UK groups. 

In my opinion, we don't have enough information to yet reach a conclusion, and the truth may lie somewhere else. The British security forces are being close mouthed, and we may never get the whole picture.


----------



## 1feral1 (3 Jul 2007)

time expired said:
			
		

> Wes,its getting closer,keep your head down.Arrested a doctor in Oz. trying to leave
> Brisbane on a one way ticket, had some connection with those arrested in the UK.
> The new British Interior Minister gave a statement concerning the fight on terror,
> BBC noted with admiration that she did not mention Muslims once in her speech.
> ...



Ya, heard this on the way home from work last night.

Remember, Queensland is Australia's Alberta. Pretty much de-regulated, and wide open if you get my drift. So, need I say more, ha! However, it goes to show you that these cowards are everywhere, not just in the big urban areas of our countries. I am sure there will be more arrrests and leads going after the 'few' muslims here in Queensland. They just are not as tolerated up here as they are in Sydney, and they know it.


Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Benny (3 Jul 2007)

time expired said:
			
		

> Wes,its getting closer,keep your head down.Arrested a doctor in Oz. trying to leave
> Brisbane on a one way ticket, had some connection with those arrested in the UK.
> The new British Interior Minister gave a statement concerning the fight on terror,
> BBC noted with admiration that she did not mention Muslims once in her speech.
> ...


What reeeally worries me is that this scum was practicing here. If they are happy to murder infidels with bombs, what were they doing (or not doing) to their patients in Queensland?


----------



## 1feral1 (3 Jul 2007)

Benny said:
			
		

> What reeeally worries me is that this scum was practicing here. If they are happy to murder infidels with bombs, what were they doing (or not doing) to their patients in Queensland?



He was employed with the Gold Coast Hospital near Surfer's Paradise, to the south of town, and apparently according to his employer, he was doing a real good job. Good sleeper, not causing any abnormailities in his day to day life. He has been named, Mohamed Haneef, 27 yrs old, a muslim of Indian origin, so google for more info. he was recruited from Liverpool in the UK, been here less than a year. 

The UK is applying to have him sent to the UK, so there must be serious issues waiting. We heard one of the bombers was using his sim card in a mobile phone, and now there is siezed emails etc, so the plot thickens. Another local doctor has also been detained here for questioning.  

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Benny (3 Jul 2007)

On 3AW this morning, the news was that they have until tomorrow night to formally charge him or release him. Given that the UK will want to extradite, I really hope it's the former.


----------



## 1feral1 (3 Jul 2007)

To hold him, the must have enough, as for the other coward, he is co-operating with the police as I type these words out. I reckon Haneef is rotten, as he told workmates he was off to India to visit his wife and child, and in reality he was on a one way ticket to Indonesia, with no intention of returning, so I smell a rat, a fat, decomposing rat.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Benny (3 Jul 2007)

Me too. You don't get investigated for terrorism here unless something is very wrong with what you are doing.


----------



## Greymatters (3 Jul 2007)

Two articles that may have been posted in other forums, but applicable here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6613963.stm (May 2007)
"MI5 watch 2,000 terror suspects - The number of terror suspects being monitored by MI5 in the UK has grown by a quarter in the past six months"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/25/nterr25.xml (Feb 2007)
"The terrorist threat facing Britain from home-grown al-Qaeda agents is higher than at any time since the September 11 attacks in 2001, secret intelligence documents reveal.... There were 200 known networks involved in at least 30 terrorist plots." 

Looks like the boys in the UK will be quite busy for the foreseeable future... 29 plots to go?


----------



## Benny (3 Jul 2007)

The second suspect has been released.


----------



## 1feral1 (3 Jul 2007)

He better look both ways before crossing the street! Smack!

Person vs bus.


Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 Jul 2007)

I don’t always, usually or even often agree with Christopher Hitchens but here, reproduced, from _Slate.com_ and today’s _National Post_ under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is a comment with which I do agree:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=87ae77b3-efc6-4b18-9b4d-ea182f2dcb11


> A jihad against women
> 
> *Christopher Hitchens, Slate.com*
> 
> ...



For me this is the key: _” One notes in passing that any such concession implicitly denies or negates Islam's claim to be a universal religion. Indeed, some of its own exponents certainly do speak as if they think of it as a tribal property.”_

The _”fascistic subculture”_ which has transported _”arranged marriages, dowry, veiling and the other means by which the feudal arrangements” are enforced _ from the Middle East and West/Central Asia to the West means that we are now, in the 21st century, ‘home’ to _”honour killings, forced marriages, clerically mandated wife-beatings, incest in all but name and the adoption of apparel for females that one cannot be sure is chosen by them but which is claimed as an issue of (of all things) free expression.”_

Culture matters.

I know I’m beating a drum but I think it’s an important one.


----------



## Old Sweat (4 Jul 2007)

I had read Hitchens' piece earlier this morning. It is unfortunate that he often comes across as an opinionated jerk, for he cuts to the heart of the matter. 

This time, I believe, he is using the distaste the radicalized Islamists feels for Western women to point out their abhorrence of Western society as a whole. They could have as easily targeted a gay bar or the Salvation Army, Knights of Columbus or Masons, It is fortunate that they do not have the superiority in weapons, technology and organization that Cortez, Pizarro et al enjoyed over the Indians of Central and South America, or we would be up the proverbial creek without a paddle. 

What will eventually save us is that the Islamists are so radically out of step with both the West and the East. They are not even in an unchallenged position of power in their own sphere, the Islamic Crescent, and may even face becoming pariahs in large chunks of it.

As an aside, when I saw the twin towers come down, my overwhelming emotion/thought was not anger or sorrow or fear, it was, "I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of whoever organized this." That is why terrorism will fail when used as a weapon against an external state and culture - it may frighten people, but ultimately it does not cow them into submission.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (4 Jul 2007)

Outstanding op-ed.

I have to add, considering the un-PC nature of the op-ed, I'm even more please that the National Post had the stones to run the piece in its entirety.



Matthew.


----------



## tomahawk6 (4 Jul 2007)

The goal of the islamists is global domination.Today their method is asymetrical warfare. Once they have access to nuclear weapons they will accelerate their timetable. If AQ/Taliban can take the Pakistani government and Iran is able to gain nuclear weapons ,then we will see the struggle against the islamists enter a very dangerous realm. Terrorist proxies will use nuclear weapons against their enemies and it will be very difficult to respond as they are stateless entities. Right now the enemy uses car bombs and suicide bombers but the future is nuclear weapons. A 20kt device planted in a row house is the future - a bleak future to be sure.


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 Jul 2007)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The goal of the islamists is global domination.Today their method is asymetrical warfare. Once they have access to nuclear weapons they will accelerate their timetable. If AQ/Taliban can take the Pakistani government and Iran is able to gain nuclear weapons ,then we will see the struggle against the islamists enter a very dangerous realm. Terrorist proxies will use nuclear weapons against their enemies and it will be very difficult to respond as they are stateless entities. Right now the enemy uses car bombs and suicide bombers but the future is nuclear weapons. A 20kt device planted in a row house is the future - a bleak future to be sure.



I agree, _terrorist_ nukes are the future – and not a *distant* future, either.

As Old Sweat said, the West will not be cowed into submission.  Bigger, tougher, bloodier _Afghanistans_ will result.  No African, Arab, Persian or West/Central Asian state is beyond attack if (when) we determine that it aided and abetted terrorist who hit us with a nuke.

I maintain that our _*strategic*_ objective should, still, be to turn the _Islamists_ back in, upon themselves.  Iraq’s decline into chaos and civil war may, actually, help.  The chaos in Iraq can and should spread across the region and throughout much (not all) of the Muslim world – my old friend the ‘new’ Thirty Years War (followed by _reformations_ and _enlightenments_) being the highly desirable end result.

But, in the interim, until we can turn Arab on Arab and Arab on Persian and Shia on Sunni and so on, *they* (bin Laden, _et al_) will continue to escalate their attacks on us – crossing the nuclear threshold as soon as venal, corrupt, mischief making Pakistanis or Russians (more likely both) put the tools in their hands.  Our response will be ‘awesome’ and ‘awful,’  indeed!


----------



## tomahawk6 (4 Jul 2007)

> Our response will be ‘awesome’ and ‘awful,’  indeed!



There was a time that I believed that. However the left would not permit the use of nuclear weapons even in retaliation. The alliance between the left and the jihadists is probably the most disconcerting to me. Today's left were yesterdays communists and their goal is unchanged - the defeat of the west.


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 Jul 2007)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> There was a time that I believed that. However the left would not permit the use of nuclear weapons even in retaliation. The alliance between the left and the jihadists is probably the most disconcerting to me. Today's left were yesterdays communists and their goal is unchanged - the defeat of the west.



Don't be too sure.  A Democrat, any Democrat, in the White House is not going to be 'soft' if America is attacked with a nuke.

But, Australia, Britain or Canada?  Well, that *may* be another matter.

How about France, Germany, Italy or Spain?  What if one of them is the target?  Would America, even George W Bush's America, retaliate in kind?  That's when I'm guessing you're right.  If the Eiffel Tower or El Escorial is vapourized then nuclear retaliation will, likely, be off the table.


----------



## Old Sweat (4 Jul 2007)

There are a couple of things that muddies the waters of nuke retaliation. First, the Brits and the French are still nuclear powers, although the former might possibly give theirs up. (There are others, of course, but these are the main players with the US in the case of an attack on the west.

Second, the American options are limited because of the standing down of (much of?) their tactical devices. I suspect they still have some low yield surprises up their sleeves; whether any president would employ them in retaliation to an attack on a western state very much depends on the circumstances. Certainly big nukes, to use a technical term, would require major provocation. The worst thing any administration could do would be to state that any nuclear attack on an ally would lead to retaliation in kind, and then go wobbly and either renege or fire one into an uninhabited area.


----------



## old medic (4 Jul 2007)

Britain to expand checks on immigrants, doctors
Updated Wed. Jul. 4 2007 9:41 AM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070704/UK_terror_070704/20070704?hub=TopStories




> British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has ordered a review of the recruitment of foreign health service staff after all of the eight people arrested in last week's foiled bomb plots were found to have links to the medical profession.
> 
> "I have asked ... the new terrorism minister to conduct an immediate review as to what arrangements we must make in relation to recruitment to the NHS (National Health Service)," Brown told parliament on Wednesday.
> 
> ...


----------



## Flip (4 Jul 2007)

> Our response will be ‘awesome’ and ‘awful,’  indeed!



No doubt........ at all.



> There was a time that I believed that. However the left would not permit the use of nuclear weapons even in retaliation. The alliance between the left and the jihadists is probably the most disconcerting to me. Today's left were yesterdays communists and their goal is unchanged - the defeat of the west.



The left has a way of becoming irrelevant.
On the day of 9-11, I knew Saddam would soon be gone.
My only surprize was how long it would take.

If things got radiological - the fear factor would return.
Irans' mullahs would never again be able to breath unfiltered air.


----------



## Greymatters (4 Jul 2007)

From his article "A jihad against women" (Christopher Hitchens, Slate.com, Wednesday, July 04, 2007)

"tribal" -  "backward" - "reactionary" - "feudal"

I like how, for a change, some accurate words are being used to desribe the actions of people with this kind of thinking...


----------



## time expired (4 Jul 2007)

ERC wrote "The West will not be cowed"I am not sure this is true, I believe
that large portions are already cowed and the rest are so blinded by the anti
American rheotoric on finds everywhere in the Western media that they are
subconsciously support the terrorists,as long as the bombs dont go off in 
in their own backyards.After all what is the reason George Bush and Tony Blair
hated so much?,because they acted robustly to a perceived terrorist threat
to their countries.I cannot see the majority of European countries changing their
 appeasing policies,but what I can see is a Fortress America attitude growing
 in the USA and for Canada to snuggle up safe within the walls will require
a huge attitude change on the part of a large portion of our population.
By the way Mr Brown has also just told his Ministers to refrain from refering
to terrorists as Muslim terrorists and is giving up the authority to send the 
British Forces into action and giving it up to Parliment,this means that as
long as New Labour is in power British troops will probably not fight again
unless the Taliban show up in Calais.
                                   Regards


----------



## time expired (4 Jul 2007)

Please excuse the spelling errors in the above post ,as I hit the post button
in the middle of my spell check.
                                        Regards


----------



## GAP (4 Jul 2007)

time expired said:
			
		

> Please excuse the spelling errors in the above post ,as I hit the post button
> in the middle of my spell check.
> Regards



BTDT....found you could hit modify and then run spellcheck....thank god!!


----------



## Greymatters (4 Jul 2007)

I think the dislike for the current Pres. Bush is based on a bit more than just acting 'robustly'...


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2007)

Now this is the Glasgow I know and (sort of) love. I almost feel sorry for the bad guys now...  


HERO CABBIE: I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_headline=i-kicked-burning-terrorist-so-hard-in-balls-that-i-tore-a-tendon-in-my-foot--&method=full&objectid=19401382&siteid=66633-name_page.html


----------



## 1feral1 (5 Jul 2007)

So he's burned and his balls are mush, ha!

Good.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Munxcub (5 Jul 2007)

I heard he had burns to 90% of his body... if that's the case I doubt he's long for this world.  My little brother suffered burns to 40% and damn near died...


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2007)

If they're all doctors, shouldn't the authorities just leave them lying there to treat themsleves?

"Physician. Heal thyself!"


----------



## Greymatters (5 Jul 2007)

Ah, the Daily Record... not quite as trashy as some of the Sun variants in the UK, but always good for a laugh.  Same defense method as used by one of our guys at Pearson airport some years ago...


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Jul 2007)

Some good articles in the Spectator. Canada, look out, this could be us....

The public know how these attacks happen — unlike the politicians
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/37976/the-public-know-how-these-attacks-happen-unlike-the-politicians.thtml

We are up against 20 years of planning
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/38087/we-are-up-against-20-years-of-planning.thtml


----------



## Kirkhill (6 Jul 2007)

Grey Matter - is the Times mair to your liking? Or the Beeb? Or the CNN report on You Tube?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2020607.ece
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6262266.stm

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uj-KSy7_FgA&mode=related&search=

Here's the tale of Glesca baggage handler John Smeaton that manage tae pit the bit in as weel.  Jus daein' his civic duty tae help the polis like.

Some choice quotes:

"What's the score? I've got to get this sorted." 
“You’re nae hitting the Polis mate, there’s nae chance.” 
"So I ran straight towards the guy, we're all trying to get a kick-in at him, take a boot to subdue the guy." 
 "Glasgow doesnae accept this, if you come tae Glasgow, we'll set about you." 

One of the more interesting quotes I can't find just now.  When asked to describe the sounds he heard he said the sounded just like the sound of a lit deodorant aerosol can being thrown on a bonfire.  "Anybody that has heard that sound will know what I'm talking about".   Interesting bonfire parties in Glesca.


----------



## a_majoor (6 Jul 2007)

I wonder about some of the planning of this attack. The use of medical doctors as perps is very interesting, a sort of "shock and awe" effect directed at very deeply held assumptions in Western culture (dating back to classical Greek times) about doctors and the healing arts.

Was this conciously planned? We know that the Jihadi's study our media and understand Western symbolism (9/11, for example), so I wouldn't put it past them.

Hitchens lays it out in clear language, but how many of our "elites" are listening?


----------



## Greymatters (8 Jul 2007)

From some of the articles Ive read, they sounded more like interns than full-fledged doctors.  However, Ive been a bit busy so havent had a chance to read any articles or newspapers since Thursday. If youve got one saying they were qualified medical physicians, I'll take your word for it.

Commercial break...

I hate CNN - they rarely check their facts and then act like they never get anything wrong.  They used to really annoy us during the Gulf War (Version 1 in 1990) cause they would report a bunch of crap and then in the briefing room an hour later would be questions like "but thats not what CNN said...".  We were then forced to watch CNN first thing in the morning before briefings just to be prepared for the contrary opinions. 

Ref my preferred news source, for facts I always go to the BBC first if I can (they also have a better news search program and archive than most other news websites), and if not then Rick Mercer is next to see what he thinks (the man's a genius).

I cant recall the name of the British rag that used to give us such a laugh... Sunday Sport or something like that?  It was far superior (in a low taste sort of way) to the National/Midnight/Evening Star/Enquirer stuff we see in North America.  

Back to your regularily scheduled discussion...


----------



## Yrys (12 Apr 2008)

Doctor guilty in UK airport terror case



> LONDON, England (AP) -- An explosive-laden Jeep was halted only meters away from airline passengers at Glasgow airport last year when two men attempted a suicide attack as part of a plot to bomb London and Scotland, a prosecutor told a court on Friday. Two men inside the sport utility vehicle, which they had set on fire, hurled petrol bombs and repeatedly attempted to ram their way into an airport terminal during an attempted terrorist strike in June, prosecutor Jonathan Laidlaw said.
> 
> Laidlaw said driver Kafeel Ahmed was engulfed in flames as he emerged from the Jeep and attempted to hurl petrol bombs at the terminal. Ahmed later died in hospital from severe burns. Many details of the case were outlined publicly for the first time by Laidlaw after Kafeel's brother, Sabeel Ahmed, pleaded guilty to an offense of withholding information about the attacks from British authorities. The Indian-born doctor will be sentenced later Friday.
> 
> ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Apr 2008)

Hooray. It's hard to think of a better way for bad guys like that to snuff it.


----------



## FoverF (14 Apr 2008)

Gasoline was the best they could come up with? _Seriously?_


----------



## geo (14 Apr 2008)

Perfect!

Foisted by his own petard   Who could have asked for anything better


----------



## old medic (16 Dec 2008)

Doctor found guilty in London-Glasgow bomb plot
LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-bombs-glasgow17-2008dec17,0,6378995.story

The Iraqi who worked as a physician in Scotland, Bilal Abdulla, could be sentenced to life in prison for a conspiracy that shocked Britain. Another suspect is acquitted.
By Henry Chu
December 17, 2008


> Reporting from London -- An Iraqi doctor who planted car bombs in the heart of London and tried to mount a fiery suicide attack on a Scottish airport last year was found guilty Tuesday of conspiracy to commit murder.
> 
> Bilal Abdulla, 29, was convicted for his role in a terrorist plot that shocked Britain because of the involvement of a medical professional trained to save lives and because of the carnage that was only narrowly averted when the homemade bombs failed to explode.
> 
> ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Dec 2008)

Good news. He'll have a wonderful time in jail, I'm sure!


----------



## geo (17 Dec 2008)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Good news. He'll have a wonderful time in jail, I'm sure!


Hmm.... maybe the penitentiary service should supply him with a Kilt, in honour of his service in Scotland.
Would make things sooo much more convenient for those "Other" guests of the state - to welcome him to the pen....


----------



## phoenixbear (28 Dec 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Hmm.... maybe the penitentiary service should supply him with a Kilt, in honour of his service in Scotland.
> Would make things sooo much more convenient for those "Other" guests of the state - to welcome him to the pen....



he'll be living in the lap of luxury, our prisons are way too soft, they got flat screen tvs etc, get everything they want, uk too afriad of the eu human rights act...


----------

