# CF "seducing and preying" upon Canadian Youth - News Clip



## The Bread Guy (18 Mar 2007)

Thanks, m'am, for your "support".  This must certainly make life a whole lot easier for your son helping the people of AFG.  Shared with the usual disclaimer...

*Mom: military seduces young*
Valley woman, whose son is in Afghanistan, complains of ‘brainwashing’
IAN FAIRCLOUGH, Halifax Chronicle-Herald, 18 Mar 07
Article link

The military is seducing impressionable youth into service in the Armed Forces, says the mother of a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan.

Andria Hill-Lehr says youth of all ages are being led to join the military before they have the ability to think critically.

She said Forces’ advertisements, shown at movie theatres, target teens. She also said the cadet program starts as young as age 12 and puts youth in touch with military life.

"We’ve used words like brainwashing and indoctrination and they’ve lost their emphasis," she said. Now she uses the word seduction. The Wolfville mom spoke on the issue at a Voice of Women for Peace rally in Halifax last month and she is writing a book for Pottersfield Press, a Halifax County publishing company.

She said teens who become involved in cadets, the reserves and the regular forces are being taught to follow when they should be learning to lead and to think for themselves.

"The cadet (program) promotes itself as providing friendship, fun, adventures and challenges, but if that’s what’s important to parents, there are other ways to get it without promoting the military culture.

"Some parents see it as the opposite of joining a street gang," Ms. Hill-Lehr said.

She said youth could do volunteer work with aid groups, such as Crossroads and Oxfam.

The federal government spends hundreds of millions of dollars on the cadet program but nothing on Scouts Canada, which has more members, she said.

"If it’s all about citizenship and community, how come the guides and scouts aren’t getting that kind of support?"

She said her concerns are not based on the fact that her 23-year-old reservist son, Master Cpl. Garrow Hill-Stosky, and other Canadians are in Afghanistan.

Canada does need an army, she said, but it shouldn’t be developed through enticement of teenagers. She believes reserves should be restricted to people 18 years and older.

( ifairclough@herald.ca)


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## Patrolman (18 Mar 2007)

Wow! I guess she must count herself lucky she does not live in Britain. Joining as a 16 year old or going to the Army Foundation College would definately go against her line of thinking. I bet her son's head is hanging in shame, not because he thinks his mom is right but because he knows she is wrong about this one. She might even find herself without a mothers day card next month.


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## GAP (18 Mar 2007)

Advertising...hmmmm....brainwashing..seduction....well the next time she washes her hair with Clairol, or Selsun Blue, brushes her teeth, goes someplace, she had better not. They have all been advertised, therefore she is brainwashed, therefore she cannot do it. By extraction, she should wear a blindfold to the grocery store, oops, that's advertised too, and just grab items as she feels them on the shelf, because they have been advertised, and she might become "brainwashed". Critical thinker she is not, attention getter sounds more correct. I feel sorry for her son; at 24 he can move on and OUT, without leaving a forwarding address.


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## Franko (18 Mar 2007)

Wow....some support from a mother.

That's cold.

Regards


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## formerarmybrat23 (18 Mar 2007)

i think shes a little off balance. Its alright to advertise. Although the Join us motto does bring images of a cult. But from experience i can say its sometimes not easy to get in. there are many stages in the process to bail. as with most things in life you cant be forced into it. I think she should have really thought this one through. she is just coming off as an overprotective mom who probably just misses her son and wants to raise a stink about it.


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

I find it strange that she is so outspoken seeing as she comes from the valley and Wolfville, which is big on reserves and support.  I back up that army brat says, I think this mom is just missing her son and lashing out at the military in general.  I also think she just alienated herself from alot of her friends and neighbours.  
If I were her son, I'd doubt putting a mom's day card in the mail this year.  If it were my mom, she'd be getting a good slapping about, and soon.  Could it be that Taliban Jack has influenced this person?  Definately sounds a little NDPish to me.
Regards, BYTD


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## Armymedic (18 Mar 2007)

I suppose the her alternative, join a street gang, would provide her with more to harpy to the press about.


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

+1 SMMT, well put.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Mar 2007)

OK folks, that's enough posts criticizing the woman.  For this thread to continue in any worthwhile manner, keep the posts on the topic of the context of the issue, not on what you think her personal problems might be or what she "deserves" to get for them.

Army.ca Staff


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## armyvern (18 Mar 2007)

With all due respect to this soldiers mom,

There are some aspects of her opinion which are simply not based on fact, nor informed opinion. 



> Andria Hill-Lehr says youth of all ages are being led to join the military before they have the ability to think critically.
> 
> She said Forces’ advertisements, shown at movie theatres, target teens. She also said the cadet program starts as young as age 12 and puts youth in touch with military life.
> 
> "We’ve used words like brainwashing and indoctrination and they’ve lost their emphasis," she said. Now she uses the word seduction. The Wolfville mom spoke on the issue at a Voice of Women for Peace rally in Halifax last month and she is writing a book for Pottersfield Press, a Halifax County publishing company.



Dependant upon their upbringing, many youth today have a profound ability to think critically. Let's give our kids some credit here. Besides seeing those Recruiting adds at the theatre, they are also seeing the results of modern and unconventional warfare on nightly newscasts. Please, do not profess to think that the CF Recruiting adds are _so good _that today's youth are ignorant to, or forget about, the risk factors and ultimate sacrifices being paid by soldiers, including our Canadian men and women, that they are observing daily on the television sets in their bedrooms.

To brainwash or to indoctrinate someone is to remove them from reality; it is to hammer their senses with one side of the story and force ones mind to believe, and to submit to, that side of the story based upon the absence of the flip-side of the coin. That _is not _ the case with today's youth. Far from it. Today's youth, with the advances of the computer age and other technology are *far* from _sheltered_, and far from being able to claim _'they didn't know_.'



> She said teens who become involved in cadets, the reserves and the regular forces are being taught to follow when they should be learning to lead and to think for themselves.
> 
> "The cadet (program) promotes itself as providing friendship, fun, adventures and challenges, but if that's what’s important to parents, there are other ways to get it without promoting the military culture.



_"One night a week."_ This is a term this lady should know well as I'm assuming she is involved in the Scouts Canada movement. Cadets occurs one night a week, and sometimes on weekends too; just like Scouts, Guides, Beavers, Cubs, Brownies et al. Canadian youth involved in the Cadet movement are missing no more time in the classroom than their counterparts in Scouts and Guides.

As for "providing friendship, fun, adventures and challenges" I'd point out that the catch phrase for the advertising of Scouts Canada is "Bring on the Adventure" and "Challenge Yourself" is used quite frequently as well. Apparently, what is good for the goose may not be good for the gander in this instance. Promoting the Military culture?? What is intended by this remark?? It is uncalled for as it insinuates that cadets are being instructed in military tactics, doctrination and weaponry etc. That is _not_ the case.



> "Some parents see it as the opposite of joining a street gang," Ms. Hill-Lehr said.
> 
> She said youth could do volunteer work with aid groups, such as Crossroads and Oxfam.
> 
> ...



Yes, it is the opposite of joining a street gang. And that_ is not _ a bad thing!! Any structured activity with an emphasis on citizenship, leadership, volunteerism is, indeed, much better for both our youth and this country's bright future. Ms. Hill-Lehr, the Canadian Cadet movement also stress all of the above in it's programming activities. All of it. You'd be surprised to learn, based upon your erroneous comments, that the Cadet movement is actively involved in volunteering in your very own community and it's members participate in the_ very same _ Duke of Edinburgh program that Scouts and Guides do.

Please, do not also mistake a lack of monetary funding to mean a lack of support for the Scout and Guide programs. Scouts Canada and Girl Guides Canada can frequently be found on CF establishments making use of their facilities for events, utilizing CF camp stores for their Area & District Camps and National Jamborees. Just as CF equipment can be seen being used by volunteer organizations in your very own community during other activities such as the "Relay for Life."



> Canada does need an army, she said, but it shouldn't be developed through enticement of teenagers. She believes reserves should be restricted to people 18 years and older.



Last time I checked an 18 year old was still a teenager. Needless, the point _is_ moot. Anyone under the age of 18 years requires parental consent to join the CF Reserve Force or the CF Regular Forces. Ms. Hill-Lehr would therefore have you believe that the CF has also brainwashed their parents. 

Ms. Hill-Lehr, a great many Scouters and Guiders, leading, teaching and working the youth involved in Scouts & Guides Canada...are people just like me, who wear the CF uniform of this country. I am one of them. I believe in today's youth. I support today's youth. I give them credit and help them to learn to think critically and show initiative; how to believe in themselves so that they succeed in life, wherever their path shall take them, be it the CF or not.


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

Well, let's look at it from her perspective: are we brainwashing our troops and reserves and cadets in to joining up just to send them off to KAF? I was in each from age 13, I never felt brainwashed, but it did give me an alternative career path and a destiny for which I've served over 22 years.  And I would not have wanted it any other way after these years.  Especially seeing as when I joined up, businesses and companies were going under and there were tons of out of work people.  My mom didn't really want me to join up, but after seeing her friends kids losing their jobs, she supported my brother and I.  
Certainly we are actively recruiting to bring our numbers up to replace attrition and ad hoc releases.  Plus The CDS and MND want our numbers up from the deplorable 65,000. The new ads are aimed at the youth of today to give them an another career opportunity and a chance to serve. Sure it looks glamourous, if it didn't, it wouldn't work!  
My 0.02


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## The Bread Guy (18 Mar 2007)

One person's marketing = another person's brainwashing


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## CdnArtyWife (18 Mar 2007)

Some other points to note here are:

Wolfville, by nature is an Arts and Liberal town. Being a university town (Acadia) there are ALOT of very Liberal, anti government, anti-Harper views there.  When I looked at the locations of the rallys that were taking place yesterday I was not at all surprised to see Annapolis Royal and Wolfville on the list.

Dispite the fact that what used to be CFB Cornwallis is just down the road (10 minutes) from Annapolis, Anna Royal (as us locals call it) is still a very Arts and Liberal town as well. So I have a fairly good understanding what this mother's mindset probably is. She is just like the neighbors of both my parents and my hubby's (seeing as he is from the Wolfville area and I am from Anna Royal)...we are very familiar with this, we encounter it every time we go "home"...

The other point to note is that with the nature of employment rates, especially security in employment within the Annapolis Valley, we find more and more youth looking to join the Reserve as a way to gain steady employment and augment their secondary education. It is also looked upon by the locals as a ticket out. A chance to get to see the rest of Canada, be gainfully employed and maybe even do something a little more meaningful than hang around the homestead picking apples or helping bring in the haul on uncle's trawler.

So, you add the youth trying to escape the farming/fishing communities and make something of themselves to the Liberalist thinking of an Arts and University community that prefers to have the apples fall directly under the tree...and you get such reactions as we see from this mom.

I take it with a grain of salt...I see where she is coming from, I don't agree, but I understand. What angers me, is as a family member of someone currently serving an overseas tour, I feel that regardless of her views on the politics of it all, she should keep her mouth shut as her own way of supporting her son and "the troops". After he gets home, she can talk all she wants. But as someone who has family in the sandbox myself...I feel that we, the families, need to put up and shut up if we don't agree with the mission.  

I can only imagine how her son would feel if he knew what she was saying. If it were me, I'd be embarrassed...and I'd make sure to have a long chat with her regarding what I felt was kosher an what's not.

I understand her worry, but I bet she'd be alot less worried if she was actually educated with the facts.

Just my 2 apples,

Cheers,

CAW


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## chris06 (18 Mar 2007)

Do you think this might just be a way for a worried and scared mother to vent her anxiety about being away from her son?  Maybe he's never left home and she finds herself in the position of helplessness?  Maybe over the course of a 2 hour interview in her living room, looking at pictures of her son, talking with a reporter, she mused about the situation that got her son to where he is.  Just a thought.


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

CAW, it never dawned on me {my forgetful memory, seeing as I just left there!}  that the valley is Liberal and a university town.  Typical Liberal to go with the flow and be anti conservative, BUT the Liberals put us there in the first place.  
My 1 apple..


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## armyvern (18 Mar 2007)

chris06 said:
			
		

> Do you think this might just be a way for a worried and scared mother to vent her anxiety about being away from her son?  Maybe he's never left home and she finds herself in the position of helplessness?  Maybe over the course of a 2 hour interview in her living room, looking at pictures of her son, talking with a reporter, she mused about the situation that got her son to where he is.  Just a thought.



Did you read the article??



> We’ve used words like brainwashing and indoctrination and they’ve lost their emphasis," she said. Now she uses the word seduction. The Wolfville mom spoke on the issue at a Voice of Women for Peace rally in Halifax last month and she is writing a book for Pottersfield Press, a Halifax County publishing company.


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## armyvern (18 Mar 2007)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> CAW, it never dawned on me {my forgetful memory, seeing as I just left there!}  that the valley is Liberal and a university town.  Typical Liberal to go with the flow and be anti conservative, BUT the Liberals put us there in the first place.
> My 1 apple..



My relatives, including the one teaching at Acadia must be in the minority then.  

They even wear red on Fridays (well so they tell me) !!


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## p_imbeault (18 Mar 2007)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> She said Forces’ advertisements, shown at movie theatres, target teens. *She also said the cadet program starts as young as age 12 and puts youth in touch with military life.*



Whats wrong with that? IMHO its a great way for youth to see what the military is sort of structured like. I've seen plenty of young kids come in for a couple nights and decide its not for them and move on, it's not like anyone is forcing them to come in and experience it. 



> "The cadet (program) promotes itself as providing friendship, fun, adventures and challenges, but *if that’s what’s important to parents*, there are other ways to get it without promoting the military culture.


Shouldn't it be whats more important to your son or daughter? I mean we all live in Canada where everyone is able to make a choice about what they want to do. There are _few_ programs out there that offer the same things the Cadet program offers (i.e. structure, discipline, physical fitness initiative, competitive sports, cultural awareness, citizenship, public speaking, D of E program, and the list goes on). If your child wants to join cadets and refuse to let them go for one night just to see what its like, solely on the basis that it has a relationship with the military then you've failed as a parent.



> She said youth could do volunteer work with aid groups, such as Crossroads and Oxfam.


If that's what they really want to do let them, no one is forcing your son or daughter to join cadets. Do not force them to go join an aid group they may not want to be a part of. If they want to work with an aid group good on them.



> The federal government spends hundreds of millions of dollars on the cadet program but nothing on Scouts Canada, which has more members, she said.



Also a private organization.



> "We’ve used words like brainwashing and indoctrination and they’ve lost their emphasis," she said. Now she uses the word seduction. The Wolfville mom spoke on the issue at a Voice of Women for Peace rally in Halifax last month and she is writing a book for Pottersfield Press, a Halifax County publishing company.



I can't get over all the brainwashing techniques they attempt to use at these peace rallies.

She may be worried about her son, but thats no reason to ream out on a program for youth.


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## Kiwi99 (18 Mar 2007)

I find the comments from her with ref to the recruiting ads somewhat disturbing.  targeting youth , blah blah blah...

I always thought that the recruiting ads were a short comedy film.

And to suggest that they seduce people into the military is, wow, right out there.  Every recruiting ad is designed to incorporate all groups of society in a fashion that hints at danger but leans towards super friendly and not too aggresive.

Honestly, what would she say if the ads showed the army for what it actually is?  Shooting and killing and blowing shyte up.  Hells yeah.

But, she has her opinion and is entitled to it.  Thats why I and others wear the uniform.  If you dont like her opinion, dont wear the uniform that protects it.

Kiwi out!


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## Spartan (18 Mar 2007)

As recently coming from the cadet ranks, there are some things to counter in this article. 
1. We do volunteer, both on our own and within the cadet unit. We are actively taught this as a good citizenship module throughout the program. We are encouraged heavily to go out and volunteer.
2. We are taught to think for ourselves through development of leadership skills.

These misconceptions do nothing for the cadet movement and the good it can do.


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## p_imbeault (18 Mar 2007)

> She said teens who become involved in cadets, the reserves and the regular forces are being taught to follow when they should be learning to lead and to think for themselves.



Most teens can think for themselves, its how we make the decision to do homework, go out with friends, decide on what to do on the weekend. We are taught to follow in the public schools, work, just about everywhere. Also after a couple years cadets do learn to lead, lead a group younger kids. They get a chance to be put in charge, to be a mentor and pass on what they know. Is this so bad?


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> My relatives, including the one teaching at Acadia must be in the minority then.
> 
> They even wear red on Fridays (well so they tell me) !!


Good for them!!  Stick it to the Man... ;D
Not all Valley people are staunch Liberals... ???


modified to add:
If being brainwashed means being part of a team as an individual, being a flag waving--red wearing--beer drinking--patriotic Canadian!  Then, most of us are brainwashed... :-\
I only wish my boys had stayed in cadets,[as I did} they would have learned {as I did} self discipline, self motivation, self respect and how to become a better citizen and leadership skills that would take them into life. Whether or not they continued into the Military would be up to them.  At least I would support their choice in thier lifes path.
Regards,
Looks like her son is already "all that." 
Those who Serve.


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## Romeo Echo Mike Echo (18 Mar 2007)

How much Anti-Military brainwashing have Canadians been subjected to since the end of WWII? I'd blame the media for this post-Viet Nam style journalism. Serving your Country and the Profession of Arms is far more noble than being some hack reporter. I think it was Kierkegaard who said I'd rather have a sister who was a prostitute than a brother who was a journalist.


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## CdnArtyWife (18 Mar 2007)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Good for them!!  Stick it to the Man... ;D
> Not all Valley people are staunch Liberals... ???



Nope, I agree...

This is one staunch conservative daughter of conservatives (actually Republican Americans...oooooh >) from the Valley who married a staunch conservative son of a Liberal (actually Democrat American) father from the Valley.  ;D

We wrote the exception to the rule...LOL


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## TN2IC (18 Mar 2007)

Not to dive right in... but I have to lay my two cents down.

I just find it odd how she uses the cadets as a scapegoat. I went in the cadet program, then went PRes, then Reg Force. I was the only one out of my level to be in the CF. Well, a handful went CIC.. so I should correct myself on that. But are the CIC's not deployable? Correct me if I am wrong. Cadets as influence? No, I don't think so. It made our minds open to many doors, socialize and build our self esteem. It gave us a light on leadership.

As for the Boy Scout deal, I honestly think they should be getting some sort of funding. I was in Scouts program too when I was a wee little kid. Great program. Now my little boy is about to start it. Everyone remember selling those apples? hehehe... Girl guides with the cookies.. I am getting hungry now.

That's my two cents,
TN2IC


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

Apples and Cookies are how Scouts and Guides earn their money.  They must provide a service. Nothing for free in Scouting.  
TN, you and I are of the same mettle, only a few years apart.   >


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## scoutfinch (18 Mar 2007)

Hmmmm.  My 18 year old son leaves for KAF on Thursday.  Prior to his pre-deployment training, he and I had a very long chat about what it was that he was entering into.  He had thought about the whole thing from a very mature, adult perspective.  As a result, he received my blessings.  

Make no mistake about it -- if I thought for one second that he did not understand in its entirity what he was signing up to do, I would not have approved.  After all, some 18 year olds are not yet adults.  But he had made his decision from a very informed perspective and had taken the good, the bad and the ugly into consideration in coming to a very well thought out decision.  His decision making process was enough to convince me that he had demonstrated sufficient maturity.

Me?  I confess to having some difficulty with the Cadets movement for a number of reasons.  Brainwashing?  I think not.  

Moreover, the fact that her son has deviated from her values and morals would suggest that he is an independent thinker and not 'brainwashed' as she argues.


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## TN2IC (18 Mar 2007)

SamIAm, please give your son my best wishes.


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

Sam, sounds like you brought him right!  Good head on his shoulders, a credit to you and your husband.  
Give my best to your son, and wishes for a safe return.


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## 3rd Herd (18 Mar 2007)

Occasionally we wander over into the cadets thread, more than often we are asked to leave after all it is their thread BUT on this issue I would not mind hearing from them. As to the brain washing I remember in December evaluating the public speaking portion of their Star requirements; first up covered NFL, second up covered bullying in school, third spoke about the family cat.................. Add into the leadership requirements such as "what makes a good leader, ethics of a good leader, and lastly the staff who lead by example.

Given the revamping the cadets have gone through over the years to make sure the "UN Conventions on the Child" are being upheld as well as other international conventions I agree with several other posters in this thread. Maybe the mother is having a very, very, late case of "post partum blues" It also seems Scouts, Guides etc generally meet once a week while again generally cadets have things on the go anywhere from one to four nights a week. 

Well volunteering for an NGO is all well and fine very few have set courses in leadership, team building etc. There primary focus is RASING MONEY most of which goes to administrative costs. Very few NGOs lately have sent a significant amount directly into the field. Continuing on this point it has been interesting to note those university fund raising groups around the campus are now sending funds raised directly to "on the ground" operations" not to the organizations head offices. Maybe they are tired of the "brain washing" from the other end.


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## McG (18 Mar 2007)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> She said teens who become involved in cadets, the reserves and the regular forces are being taught to follow when they should be learning to lead and to think for themselves.


Funny.  I though leadership was one of the pillars that Cadets aimed to build, and I know it is something we attempt to get into even our newest soldiers.  leadership & the ability to think for one's self are essential in the modern battlefield.


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## The Bread Guy (18 Mar 2007)

Bit rusty, but aren't the aims of the Cadet movement:
to promote leadership, good citizenship and physical fitness, as well as an interest in Canada's military?

I've been lucky enough to sit on interview boards choosing cadets for senior, advanced courses (like learning to fly, senior leadership, international exchange), and the young people I see are enthusiastic, keen, well spoken and polite (even the sponsoring board members like bringing them to public events as shining ambassadors for the movement).  

Yes, there are a percentage that go into the military down the road, but even the ones who don't become good workers, good citizens and good Canadians - as the comedian once said, is that so wrong?


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## retiredgrunt45 (18 Mar 2007)

It can be summed up in one famous quote, made by one of the greatest United States presidents ever to serve in office.



> "* Ask not what your country can do you, but what you can do for your country"*
> 
> John Fitzgerald Kennedy's inaugural speach January 20, 1961


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## rosco (18 Mar 2007)

I find it strange that someone would try to pit the "Scouts" against the "Cadets"... especially in a military vs.nonmilitary slant.

Although modern Scouts it farther removed from it's military beginnings I am sure most are aware that Lord Baden Powell started the movement as an aid to the Bohr War. For all sense and purpose it was a cadet organisation. To this day Scouts are divided into military like platoons, rank/chain of command are stressed, uniforms are worn, field craft taught  exc. 

Cadets out there don't get choked at this comparson. I fully understand the differences between the two organisations but I am saying they are a lot more similar that the other groups listed (Crossroads exc).

For my children I welcome the discipline, structure and character of either group. It will give them the tools not to "seduced" by either side of this argument but to come to their own conclusions.


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## TN2IC (18 Mar 2007)

Could you image this lady living in the Iron Curtain and the brainwashing... oh my..


Cheers,
Comrade TN2IC


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## Michael OLeary (18 Mar 2007)

rossco said:
			
		

> Cadets out there don't get choked at this comparson. I fully understand the differences between the two organisations but I am saying they are a lot more similar that the other groups listed (Crossroads exc).



Search the Cadet forum on "scouts" to see what they (i.e., Cadets) think of comparisons between the two as youth organizations.


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## KevinB (18 Mar 2007)

That "Lady's" just right the F&*@ out of 'er.
  She esentially proved to the world via national media she is an oxygen thief as such I wont waste time rebutting her assinine diatribe.

Its better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and prove it, as this one cemented.


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## George Wallace (18 Mar 2007)

I-6

I must agree.  Her statements, quoted by the reporter, are so ill-informed and contradictory that it makes the whole article nothing more than an attempt by that paper to fill a blank space.  Really!  Why are we carrying on with dissecting her feeble statements?  We are only giving attention where attention is not due.  This whole article is a result of a "No News Day".  

So she spoke at a rally.  So what.  Do we need to give her credibility here for her misconstrued conception on life?


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## TN2IC (18 Mar 2007)

It just bother me to know a "mother" would pipe up and say that.

For an example.. not to rant... but it makes me feel better...

I knew when I had a family get together (BBQ), my dad's mother, very religious lady. Gone ahead and told my mom mother's boyfriend to shut up. It was over me being deployed. He was going on about Iraq and how I just "joined" the military. I just CT in the Regs... so he must of ...yeah. And you could tell I am getting a tad upset biting my lips. What shock when she spoke out, but did I ever grow a lot of respect for her. Usually we are not a tight family, but that was a eye opener. Darn those oxygen theifs. Let's all jump on the bandwagon! The media is saying this.. so it must be right. Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam... it's all the same, right? CNN says it is.. let's follow the idiot box.  :

Gee Discovery Channel goes on about Lemmings running off a Cliff... why don't these "brainwashed oxygen theifs" run off the cliff?

Cheers,
Ticked off TN2IC..
 ;D


Other note, if you believe Lemmings do this suicide run, I believe your wrong..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming

Wikipedia says different, so it must be right..   :rofl:


Phew I feel better now..


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## Limey (18 Mar 2007)

When I first read the article I wondered if Hill-Lehr's position of being a Canadian military mom was being taken advantage of by anti-war advocates. I googled her and found this video of her on youtube:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Q9IBL58j4

She is clearly an ardent anti-war activist, not just worried mother, and speaks her point of view quite eloquently. The video opens with text describing her as a mother of a soldier in Afghanistan, and ends with the webpage of the anti-war group www.resisters.ca. 

She is allowed her point of view, even if we think it is wrong. That's one of the freedoms that makes Canada such a great country. I just feel it is a shame that she is using her son to help her gain publicity for her cause, since it is obviously not his. I hope she has his permission to use him as her poster-child. I would not be happy to have my mother quoted in the national media as saying “Right now I am ashamed of wearing a Canadian flag on my back.”

I wish her son and all his fellow soldiers a safe tour. When he comes home I hope that he will be able to say to his mother that after actually having done his job in Afghanistan that he was right and she was wrong. I doubt the Canadian Peace Alliance would put that on their website though...


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## Michael OLeary (18 Mar 2007)

If a post of your's disappears, it's probably because you did not add to the actual discussion.  I reiterate:



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> OK folks, that's enough posts criticizing the woman.  For this thread to continue in any worthwhile manner, keep the posts on the topic of the context of the issue, not on what you think her personal problems might be or what she "deserves" to get for them.
> 
> Army.ca Staff


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

I think a Mod should lock this up for OPSEC reasons.  Names and places.
As for her, well , our grandfather shed blood on foreign soil so she can spout off.
Regards, BYTD


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## Michael OLeary (18 Mar 2007)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> I think a Mod should lock this up for OPSEC reasons.  Names and places.
> As for her, well , our grandfather shed blood on foreign soil so she can spout off.
> Regards, BYTD



Do you mean the names and places that are in the publically released news story?


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## gaspasser (18 Mar 2007)

Yes, I feel there is no need to perpetuate it.
There's a lot of posts against "her" personally and not much about what she's on about.


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## McG (18 Mar 2007)

There is absolutely nothing in this thread that presents an operational security risk.


			
				BYT Driver said:
			
		

> There's a lot of posts against "her" personally and not much about what she's on about.


This is another issue & you will note that the mods have been engaged for a while in directing posters stop the ad hominem.


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## p_imbeault (18 Mar 2007)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Occasionally we wander over into the cadets thread, more than often we are asked to leave after all it is their thread


Hey you guys are always welcome over there, just don't forget to bring a sense of good humour :warstory:
Being from a rural Corps (Mayerthorpe) I know the kids love to meet and see what the reg force guys do (for us its the Strats) even if its only once or twice a year.

Edited for spelling, I guess us rural kids cant spell worth a dime either


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## wildman0101 (18 Mar 2007)

moms are moms 
and my mom taught me the rules..
please read attachment,,,
to those who have served past,present and future  
  :cdnsalute: we earned you those rights  :cdnsalute:
disrespect me again  :threat:                    
                                                   scoty out
                           a proud canadian


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## HItorMiss (18 Mar 2007)

I have seen many post stating the valley was a liberal controlled area, I disagree what is however a very liberal and because I cannot fine a better word "Hippie" area is the town of Wolfville. Though Acadia tries to bill itself as a tech university ( a la Acadia Adavantage program) it is very much controlled by the Art's majority. This is a town were I was seriously referred to as a baby killer (it's kinda funny now honestly) I find that only in the town of Wolfville is there any anti Military sentiment and that sentiment is by and large is prevalent (not everyone but most of the prof's and just about any arts student I have met save 2). I will find myself in the Valley shortly and since I now many people in that area and in Wolfville itself I may just try and meet this mother face to face to hear her argument from her own lips.


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## yoman (18 Mar 2007)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Bit rusty, but aren't the aims of the Cadet movement:
> to promote leadership, good citizenship and physical fitness,* as well as an interest in Canada's military?*
> 
> I've been lucky enough to sit on interview boards choosing cadets for senior, advanced courses (like learning to fly, senior leadership, international exchange), and the young people I see are enthusiastic, keen, well spoken and polite (even the sponsoring board members like bringing them to public events as shining ambassadors for the movement).
> ...



Bingo. To stimulate an interest in said (air, army, naval) element of the Canadian Forces. 

As has been said, leadership is a very important part of cadets. In air cadets, you start learning about the theoretical parts of leadership in your second year. There are 2 courses in air cadets dedicated 100% to making leaders (one is 3 weeks the other is 6 weeks). 

I have never been told "You must join the military after cadets". They encourage it, but they always leave the option of a successful civilian career when ever they speak about our future.


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## NavalGent (18 Mar 2007)

I don't think we can definitively say that this theory is wrong, perhaps we have all been brainwashed and don't know it. 

Take my story for example. I joined Navy League Cadets at age 10, went on to Sea Cadets, and now I'm in the forces. 

This phenomenon is not limited to cadets/reserves/military. Many of my civy buddies sure have been brainwashed too. INCO brainwashed one poor fellow, and now they've got him working underground. The bar association got another friend of mine, and she's at law school right now. Oh, yet another was in the band from a young age, he is right screwed up... poor sucker is a musical instrument repair man now. Still others were forced to go to school, and now they are well on their way to becoming teachers.


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## 1feral1 (19 Mar 2007)

Opinions are like arseholes and she has hers, but the media will run with this no doubt, as what I have said in the past, at times they are our worst enemy.

Her points are both meaningless and baseless, but the bleeding heart lefty snivel libertarians will listen, that we know.

In the short term this news will QUICKLY be forgotten, but with all thats going on these days, personally I think she has a hidden agenda, that sticks out like dogs bullocks.

Another classic example why some animals in the wild eat their young.

Thanks for your support Ma'am - NOT!  :

Wes


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## rz350 (19 Mar 2007)

I just go WTF. If that kind of STUPID recruiting ad on TV counts as brainwashing, your brain must of been pretty empty to start with. For that matter, I barley consider even soviet propaganda(I really only consider the wwII and the 1950's stuff to be so) to be brainwash, never mind the very little, discreet, and countered by the media advertising that our forces do.


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## CE621 (19 Mar 2007)

Seems to me driving a car is critical thinking,and that`s at sixteen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gager (19 Mar 2007)

Where is critical thinking on her part? Would she blame McDonalds in the same breath for seducing today's youth with the 'I'm Lovin It" campaign, turning them all into walking health problems? Please. All advertisement and marketing is based off awareness of a product and disposition to buy or use it over another product, not on mind control. Other than that the young seduce themselves.



			
				Limey said:
			
		

> When I first read the article I wondered if Hill-Lehr's position of being a Canadian military mom was being taken advantage of by anti-war advocates. I googled her and found this video of her on youtube:
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Q9IBL58j4
> 
> She is clearly an ardent anti-war activist, not just worried mother, and speaks her point of view quite eloquently. The video opens with text describing her as a mother of a soldier in Afghanistan, and ends with the webpage of the anti-war group www.resisters.ca.



I've seen this before and watching it again I don't doubt she is an anti-war activist, but I would question why and the integrity behind why. It seems as a 'Mom With Son in Afghanistan" she is fearful of losing a loved one. Fair enough. But then she rattles on about imperialist, 'corporatist' and every other protestor-ism and I have to think its all just conjecture made to make her look like something she isn't - a genuine anti-war activist over what she is - a genuinely concerned mother. Maybe I'm wrong but from what I've read and seen of her it appears she is concerned with family, and her son is concerned with families.

Reverting to brainwashed mode.


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## NovaScotiaNewfie (19 Mar 2007)

Seeing as how you have to be 18 to join as an adult and if you join the PRes and are under 18 you need your parent's/guardian's signature (at least I did joining the PRes at 17) then if she had a problem with it she shouldn't have given her consent for him to join. And if he did join after he was 18 - the government considers him and adult and it was his choice. If he didn't join for the right reasons or didn't volunteer for duty for the mission due to the right reasons that has nothing to due with the argument that they should be 18 +. It comes down to a personal choice, and I'm sure you go though a fine tooth comb screening before they say you've been approved and get all the training before deployment.

Maybe now that we are deploying young people that she never thought about her son volunteering for duty like this when he first joined she is changing her mind/opinion??? 

And one person is mature at 17 - 18 when others aren't...don't think you can argue that all 18 year olds aren't mature enough to make this type of choice etc.

My thoughts...


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## scoutfinch (19 Mar 2007)

??? 

Her son is 23.  He could have been in for 5 years without her consent.

And to be frank, I wouldn't call the DAG process a 'fine tooth comb screening' as you referred to it.


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## Wookilar (19 Mar 2007)

Well, here I am volunteering to be the poster boy for this lady and her friends. 

See, I never did Cadets. Thought it was "too army" and waaay to regimented to be interesting. I was in Scouting since I was 5 (Sharing, Sharing, Sharing!) and continued until I was 19 (never got my Queen Venturer, not enough hours somehow). I volunteered in my community, helped old people and did untold hours of charity work AND worked in my high school library during the summer (yes, I am that big of a geek).

I guess I will wait to tell them about my 14 years in (and still counting), my tours, my disaster relief efforts (here and away) and my future plans (which involve a great deal of sand and dust, I am told). 

To say that the Cadet movement automatically leads to the military and the Scouting movement leads to working for OXFAM is just plain silly. We even started a scout troop in Kosovo and got it approved by Scouts Canada for Pete's Sake!

Oh, and my Mom (from the Stewiacke Valley) does not like this Mom (from the Annapolis Valley). When she is mentioned, Wookilar's Mom all of a sudden does not say anything. My Mom always says, "When you can't say something nice about someone......."

You know the rest.

Wook


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## armyvern (19 Mar 2007)

And to add to your post Woolikar,

I'm someone who DID do the cadet thing for 6 years. I've also been doing the Scout Leader thing for 12 years.

and I too, like your mother, ...shudder and cringe.

But as someone who has done them both, let me assure you that volunteer work (such as that you mention) is also a huge part of the cadet movement, always has been, always will be.

One hour a week? My butt. But you know that already!!  

YIS


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## career_radio-checker (19 Mar 2007)

I'm not brainwashed... though I wish the army would. I hate being _messed_ up in the head.  ;D


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## hoist-monkey (19 Mar 2007)

Nobody forced me to join, hell I didn't even know we had a Navy when I signed up.
I wanted to work on Gas Turbines and then spent almost 10 years on "O" boats fixing diesels, before 
I even seen an GT.
The only brainwashing I have ever experienced was when I was taught how to snort Tequilla by a bunch
of Brit Submariners, washed my brain pan out really good.


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## Happydiver (19 Mar 2007)

I won't go deeply into the relative merits of the Cadet program.  Pound for pound, I do feel that compared to other kid's programs in Canada, it's the best one we've got going.  I base this on personal experiences with 4-H, Cubs/Scouts, Boys & Girls clubs, Brownies/Girl Scouts, dance organizations and a large number of sport's teams.  This is the rub and where people who are unaware of the aims and goals of a particular organization will believe whatever they're told in the absence of the actual facts.  

For example, I've run into people who believe that Cadets is a form of 'Hitler Youth'.  They know nothing about the program.  All they know is the kids wear a uniform, it's obviously connected with the military, the military is bad because they start wars usually over oil, war is total evil along with oil, fight against evil and save the planet, therefore these kids and what they're doing is evil incarnate.  Hey, it's their opinion and when I come across people like that I try to open their minds and educate them.  Usually, it doesn't work because they're so closed minded and nothing will sink in but at least I've tried to correct some obvious fallacies.

Organizations like the military and cadets do very poorly historically at selling themselves to the public at large.  Having a gag policy placed on you by hostile governments obviously doesn't help plus nowadays people don't blindly follow authority the way they used to.  But it does not work to bury your head in the sand and keep quiet while the wingnuts spout their nonsense.  I've seen it in other industries where they've tried to ignore the crackpots and unfortunately it becomes a case of whoever shouts the loudest must be telling the truth.  People are too busy in today's world to actively dig for information and either tune out or have been conditioned to receive a steady stream of 30 second sound bites.  You've got to really work at making sure that your message is heard. 

For example, we had people believing that the military here in Comox was seeding the atmosphere to create clouds to combat global warming.  They would see a plane (usually civilian but what do they know) fly overhead, leave trails of 'smoke' that would occasionally spread out as larger clouds.  The Base Commander, who is excellent at responding to local concerns, correctly pointed out the physics of the phenomenon and offered to have the public come and inspect for themselves all the military craft on base for evidence of cloud seeding equipment.

It's ironic that the Canadian military with all it's conventional might and power has such difficulty in defending itself when it comes to public opinion.  Of course with a friendlier government in place that is allowing the military to get the word out, I see this changing for the better.  

The military and cadet organizations need to continuously let the taxpayers know all the good that they are doing.  Hucksterism, no!  Just tell the truth and be proud of what you're doing and why you're doing it.  We from within all know the truth.  We're not the ones who need convincing about the good that we do.  It's the general public who needs a balanced story and with a little education, the majority of people are smart enough to see who's making the most sense.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (20 Mar 2007)

This woman was in the paper here in the Fall when her son was getting ready to go on 0107. She was just as adamant then and she stated that she loves her son but they agree to disagree on this. she is a member of the peace movement in the Valley and is taking advantage of the media in order to make her point. I think she probably is scared for the safety of her son as most mothers are but I'm not sure that is her prime motivation. As others have stated, we serve so that she has the freedom to say and believe what she wants to. I thank God that we live in a country in which she will not have to fear the police arriving at her door in the night to take her off to prison for anti-social or anti-government beliefs.

the Peaceniks got 90 people out to their protest here in Halifax last week....whoop te doo....it hardly deserved the two pages of coverage it got in the Chronicle Herald but they too have freedom.
given the large military presence here in Halifax and the Veteran population I doubt that this was something that a large proportion of their readership enjoyed. I personally skimmed it and went on to other things.  :


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## KwaiLo (20 Mar 2007)

My understanding of the lack of Scout funding is that it is a choice by Scouts Canada, as well as the Scouting organization in the US.  Not receiving funding allows considerable freedom of management.  I was able to find some instances through Google of funding, but they were for specific, shared programs, or for the Francophone version of the Scouts.

Even with the closures of camps for the Scouts in the last few years, I have a hard time thinking they will change what seems to be a well thought out policy of not receiving Government funding.


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## mil (20 Mar 2007)

I had two kids go through Cadets.  Both joined almost the minute they turned 12 (their choice), and both aged out, one as DSM, one as RSM.  They worked hard, they had fun, they learned respect, discipline, commitment to their community, leadership, and made some amazing friends that, even years later, they still have.  Some have chosen the Military, some have not, but they have all become fine citizens, and I am extremely proud of all of them.  As a parent, I can't say enough good about Cadets.


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## NL_engineer (20 Mar 2007)

KwaiLo said:
			
		

> My understanding of the lack of Scout funding is that it is a choice by Scouts Canada, as well as the Scouting organization in the US.  Not receiving funding allows considerable freedom of management.  I was able to find some instances through Google of funding, but they were for specific, shared programs, or for the Francophone version of the Scouts.
> 
> Even with the closures of camps for the Scouts in the last few years, I have a hard time thinking they will change what seems to be a well thought out policy of not receiving Government funding.



No, Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the American scouting movement, is tied rather closely with the US Army, and USMC (info from an American friend).  They are more of a combination of out scouts and cadets.  Scouts in the UK if  remember correctly also have close ties with there forces.


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## Donut (20 Mar 2007)

Taking this further away from the NS Mom whose son is in A'Stan...

Scouts Canada are so far removed from the traditional role of scouting, that a counter-group has stood up, here in BC anyway.

The Baden-Powell Scouts Association is dedicated to returning scouting to it's original paramilitary form, with quite explicit roles for religion, no females, and other "traditional" hallmarks of the Boer War inspired movement.

DF


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## armyvern (21 Mar 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Taking this further away from the NS Mom whose son is in A'Stan...
> 
> Scouts Canada are so far removed from the traditional role of scouting, that a counter-group has stood up, here in BC anyway.
> 
> ...



PBSA can tell you what they wish and they've been around for years...ever since well...women in the Scout movement.

Nope, it's all about the fact that this woman here (ie me)...is in there teaching orienteering, fieldcraft, to male and female Scouts. Egads. Of course there are no women out in the world who are qualified to do that, or who can not interpret pictures of butterflies and Boer War Forts rolled into one while out on our latest route recce etc. Have no doubt in your mind that's what it's about. But that's a tangent of course.


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## Donut (21 Mar 2007)

Librarian, that's interesting (as in kinda makes you hmmmmm), and news to me.

Certainly NOT what I was told when I was approached to help them set up in BC...but I got a hincky feeling about the guys and bowed out after 2 meetings with just leadership.

DF


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## proudnurse (21 Mar 2007)

mil said:
			
		

> I had two kids go through Cadets.  Both joined almost the minute they turned 12 (their choice), and both aged out, one as DSM, one as RSM.  They worked hard, they had fun, they learned respect, discipline, commitment to their community, leadership, and made some amazing friends that, even years later, they still have.  Some have chosen the Military, some have not, but they have all become fine citizens, and I am extremely proud of all of them.  As a parent, I can't say enough good about Cadets.



I second that Mil, as a Mother myself my daughter is 7 years old. I hope that she will always make positive choices in life, and work hard for her future. A few Christmas' ago, the Cadets hosted an outing at our local Legion here. They were very respectful and left a lasting impression on me, and even had Santa there. The Cadets were also handing out goodie bags to all the children that were in attendance. They really did a super job. It turns out that is one of my daughters first pictures with Santa. 

There is only one thing that I can hope for, when I read this article. And if the Mother that is featured in this article ever happens to come across army.ca to do some reading of her own, as I have seen many posts from other parents that do have thier kids Deployed... I can only hope for one thing and that is to wish her son a safe tour, and a safe return home to their family along with the rest of the soldiers that he may be serving with. 

~Rebecca


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## gaspasser (21 Mar 2007)

But I can not say enough good about the Air/Army/Sea Cadet programs.  Or, Scouting or any other Youth Organization that promotes leadership, teamwork and community awareness.  I think because of the schrinking numbers in most youth orgs., the school boards in Ontario and out East have installed a 40 hours of community service before Graduation.  Kudos to Teachers for doing this!  
Back in Greenwood the Air Cadets built and manned a Haunted House for the kiddies at Hallowe'en.  Proceeds went to thier general operating budget.  Cadets also helped out at Santa time.  Ran bottle drives and cleaned up the roadside.  
I was a cadet.  
The Cadets of today are: polite! energetic, clean-cut, community minded, well spoken, upstanding future citizens. More and more and on and on.  
Are they "bad" citizens??
Are they Brainwashed?
I think not. As I've posted previously, cadets opened my eyes to the big scarey world and gave me an outlook on life and a path to follow.
This lady has her opinion adn is worried about her son.  Maybe she should have brainwashed him when he was younger away from things military?!
I Stand!


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## NL_engineer (21 Mar 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Taking this further away from the NS Mom whose son is in A'Stan...
> 
> Scouts Canada are so far removed from the traditional role of scouting, that a counter-group has stood up, here in BC anyway.
> 
> ...



Its all fine and dandy till a girl wants to join.  

But your right with Scouts Canada, they are as far away from scouting as you can be and still use the name scouting.  But that will change  > Mohahahaha  ;D


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## career_radio-checker (21 Mar 2007)

Here she is live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Q9IBL58j4 

EDIT: I don't agree with what she is saying but I do admire her articulateness, and her understanding of the situation.


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## 284_226 (21 Mar 2007)

There's an interesting column in today's Halifax Daily News which addresses this topic extremely well.  I'll paste it below, as Daily News links tend to expire...the usual "Fair Dealings/Copyright Act" stuff.

http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=18157&sc=93

Criticism of cadets unfounded 
Program doesn't 'seduce' young people into military

JOHN BOILEAU 
The Daily News

I see that Andria Hill-Lehr is at it again. She's the Valley mom who's been complaining vociferously for the past year to anyone who will listen about the deployment of her son - 23-year-old reserve infantryman Cpl. Garrow Hill-Stosky - to Afghanistan.

In her latest verbal assaults, she makes the outlandish claims that the military are seducing impressionable youth into the Armed Forces before they have the ability to think critically. In particular, she accuses the cadet organization of teaching its members to follow, when they should be learning to think for themselves.

Hill-Lehr - who was formerly married to a military man and whose father was in the army during the Second World War - feels the words brainwashing and indoctrination have lost their emphasis today. She prefers to use the word "seduction" to describe how the Forces get young people to join.

Apparently, she's even writing a book about it.

Yes, young people do join cadets - it is a youth program, after all. And cadets do advertise for kids to join - as do several other organizations. That is hardly grounds for general and unsubstantiated criticism of the program.

No one may become a cadet without their parents' or guardians' signed permission, so it is ultimately the adults who decide if their children may join. Parents are encouraged to become aware of the program before their child joins, and informed they are expected to provide support, from assistance with fund-raising to transportation for training nights, sports and other events.

Half the picture

Since her son was 14 when he joined cadets, I can only assume that Hill-Lehr gave her permission and signed his forms to let him become a cadet in the first place. That is hardly the "seduction" she would have us believe takes place.

Hill-Lehr's claims that cadets are taught to follow presents only half the picture. In any organized program, there are followers and leaders. Before someone can be a leader, they must learn to be a follower. Contrary to her contention, the first stated aim of cadets is to develop leadership, and cadets progress up the leadership chain as they learn.

According to the vast majority of parents of the 58,000 boys and girls in cadets across the country, the cadets are doing a pretty good job at it. And there is absolutely no doubt that being in cadets has prevented many young people from developing into problem teens.

The instructors who teach cadets are members of the Cadet Instructor Cadre, a separate component of the Forces. They are not even trained as fighters, but as youth leaders.

Cadets are not members of the Canadian Forces, nor are they expected or coerced to join. As Capt. Hope Carr, the public-affairs officer for the Atlantic regional cadet organization, explains: "When a child joins hockey at the age of 10, it would be a leap of logic to assume that he has to become an NHL player as an adult. The same is true of the cadets."

It should be mentioned that some cadets do later enrol in the Forces - but many more pursue other vocations. Whatever career path former cadets follow, I firmly believe they will be better people for having been in cadets.

Conflicted

While Hill-Lehr obviously loves her son and is concerned about him, it seems to me she's a conflicted mom. She has a son who's gone from cadets to the reserves to an operational deployment - yet her statements make it clear she's anti-military. He's in a combat zone - but she's obviously a pacifist. He's in Afghanistan voluntarily - and she doesn't support the Canadian Forces' presence there.

It's just a slightly different take on the old story of the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.

I'm sure Hill-Lehr doesn't fully appreciate the possible harm she is doing to her son by her continuous harping. At a time when he most needs the support of his family, her criticisms can only be distracting and demoralizing.

That's not really the way you want someone to feel when they're in a situation where the risk of injury or death is a constant concern.

Hill-Lehr has every right to make her opinions known whenever and wherever she wants to. I just can't help feeling it would be a whole lot better if she held them back until her son returns home safely in June.

johnboileau@eastlink.ca

_*For the record, John Boileau supports cadets, the Canadian Forces and our mission in Afghanistan.*_


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## Happydiver (21 Mar 2007)

Thank you for the link.  Obviously this lady is very articulate, charismatic and cares deeply about her family, her country and other people's well being.  Though she is admirable for these qualities, she reminds me of a multitude of very nice people I know who are quite naive as to how large chunks of the world work and act.  These people figure the world's problems can be solved with hugs, 'tut tuts, everyone play nice now' and supporting women's groups who are somehow inherently the saviours of us all.  Don't get me wrong, hat's off to the women's group mentioned in the video but I'm guessing that just handing over a few million dollars to their cause isn't going to cure all the ills of their country.

Sliding briefly to the cadet slant here in this thread, I do blame some of this naivety on the military and the cadet organizations themselves.  Our particular squadron does a very poor job of integrating the parents and their concerns with their children's activities.  It's a foreign world to them.

Back to Ms. Hill-Lehr, maybe she should read books like Gen Dallaire's account of Rwanda or what happened to our soldiers in Medak pocket in the former Yugoslavia.  I'm guessing that shaking hands with the Devil is very distasteful when you have no other choice.  People should count themselves lucky that they've only witnessed evil through television and not first hand.

People like Ms. Hill-Lehr will be listened to and will gather momentum in the absence of information to the contrary.  These folks have legitimate concerns that shouldn't be pooh-poohed and they should not be ignored or ridiculed.  Rather, if possible, they need to be educated so that they can make a more informed decision.


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## c_canuk (22 Mar 2007)

as much as I like what you said, I fear that with a lot of these people, they have committed to a view point, and will not accept any other view point no matter how much you try to educate them, I'm sure her son has tried. 

We must make sure our view point is expressed however to counteract these people, something the forces at large has a horrible track record of, we need to win the hearts and minds of our countrymen as well as those we are trying to help abroad.


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## Flip (22 Mar 2007)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> as much as I like what you said, I fear that with a lot of these people, they have committed to a view point, and will not accept any other view point no matter how much you try to educate them, I'm sure her son has tried.
> 
> We must make sure our view point is expressed however to counteract these people, something the forces at large has a horrible track record of, we need to win the hearts and minds of our countrymen as well as those we are trying to help abroad.



Exactly!
People committed to this viewpoint make very emotional "easy sell" remarks and the Government and the  forces take a black eye.

The good news, I think is that (In my opinion ) the current events we have been 
rivetted to for the last year or so have raised the stature of the CF.
I think Canadians are more aware than they have been in a long time.

The current government and the Army itself has stayed on message and looked pretty good.

Still, obviously there is a very long way to go.


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## 3rd Herd (23 Mar 2007)

Just a slight historical aside. If this lady is promoting the benefits of Scouting has she done any research into Baden Powells carear in South Africa. There are plenty of those from Boer descent who do not look upon him as the great humanitarian most of the Canada public has been conditioned to believe.

"But Baden-Powell’s censors took good care to ensure that no reports of the real plight of Africans in Mafeking reached the outside world during the siege. Starving Africans never became part of a public discourse."

Source:

KREBS,PAULA M. , Gender, Race and the Writing of Empire: public discourse and the Boer War  Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.1999


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## IN HOC SIGNO (23 Mar 2007)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> Just a slight historical aside. If this lady is promoting the benefits of Scouting has she done any research into Baden Powells carear in South Africa. There are plenty of those from Boer descent who do not look upon him as the great humanitarian most of the Canada public has been conditioned to believe.
> 
> "But Baden-Powell’s censors took good care to ensure that no reports of the real plight of Africans in Mafeking reached the outside world during the siege. Starving Africans never became part of a public discourse."
> 
> ...



I don't think she gives a hoot about scouting. She is a peace activist who doesn't like the military. She was trying to say that the Government funds cadets because they brainwash kids to join the military. Her point was that she thinks they should fund non militaristic group like the scouts....brownies etc.
She is wrong but she won't be convince by the likes of you and I....warmongers and aggressors. Oh well it takes all kinds.


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## Kilo_302 (23 Mar 2007)

I think she makes some good points. There is no doubt that the military targets youth by advertising in theatres. And there is also no doubt that many of these impressionable youths aren't fully capable of grasping what joining the military means (there is evidence that the human brain is not fully developed until you are in your early 20s). Furthermore, as the military is the embodiment of the federal government's monopoly on the legitimate use of force (aside from municipal and provincial police) I think its method of advertisng should be examined and if need be, questioned. I think the comparisons to ads for hair products are a bit misguided. This is our government people. Face it, until the day that raw combat footage from Afghanistan is used in recruiting ads, military advertising will be glamourous when compared to reality. 

That being said, I personally don't have a problem with these ads, in fact I enjoy them as I support the military. And its not as if the average grown man has a good idea of what to expect when he joins the military or sees combat either. Its just one of those things you have to participate in directly to understand, so I don't buy the "glamourizing the military to the youth" argument. It's glamourized to everyone. On a further note, at least now they say "fight with the Canadian Forces"  it used to be all about "peacekeeping" and it the ads made the whole thing look like a summer camp. It's somewhat more realistic now.
I would also add that by calling her an "NDPer" or suggesting that "TalibanJack"  has brainwashed her isn't helpful either. I don't think personal attacks are needed to prove her views of the military as misguided. Nor does she necessarily have to support the NDP to have these views.


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## Sassy (23 Mar 2007)

I don't agree with her opinion but I respect her right of "Freedom of expression", however; I wonder how her son feels about his mother going to the press and expressing her views on the Military to whom he's employed and serves?  I believe her motives are purely personal ergo to push her agenda of supporting the peace movement.  She's exercising her rights under our charter, the same rights our Military protects and defends on a daily basis.  I believe it's called irony?


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## RangerRay (23 Mar 2007)

Great...our very own Cindy Sheehan.... :  :-X


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## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2007)

It's nice to see her son was able to think for himself and made his own decisions.

This girl has an opinion, army is bad cadets turn children into assassins bla bla bla good for her.

Miss whatever, if you're reading this put your crusade down for a minute and write him a letter telling you love him miss him and support him.


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## mckee19 (25 Mar 2007)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> It's nice to see her son was able to think for himself and made his own decisions.
> 
> This girl has an opinion, army is bad cadets turn children into assassins bla bla bla good for her.
> 
> Miss whatever, if you're reading this put your crusade down for a minute and write him a letter telling you love him miss him and support him.


exactly what i was thinking, couldn't of put it any better myself
she should spend more time supporting her son in the decision he made instead of dishonoring him. i cant say for sure but i would have to think he would be a little disappointed to hear his own mother making these claims(unless his views are the same)


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## Hawk (25 Mar 2007)

I just have to comment! I admit I haven't read all the posts, so maybe someone has mentioned this before.

Cadets promote LEADERSHIP-not blind following.

I have a 27 year  old son. He didn't choose the Military, which surprised me-his father and myself, his uncle and grandfather were all Military, and he has a cousin currently serving. We all thought The Kid would follow, but he chose not to. No problem, his choice, and I would never have tried to change it.

The Kid was, however, in Navy League, then a Navy Cadet. Sure he learned to follow. Then he learned to LEAD. When he went into Navy League, he was a shy little mouse. He wouldn't say "Boo to a Goose". Before his first year was up, he was giving a talk at Parent Night-and did an admirable job. His second year in Navy League, he' d been promoted-twice-and was instructing bends and hitches, and drill! His Parade Square rhetoric "My grandmother marches better than you, and she has 2 replaced hips". Their officer lost it-he had to leave the parade floor to laugh!! His ability to lead got him into leadership rolls as a young adult. His lack of shyness got him into the board room and into excellent carreer possibilities. 

She needn't talk to me about what a "bad" thing the Cadet movement is!!


Hawk


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## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2007)

> I don't agree with her opinion but I respect her right of "Freedom of expression", however; I wonder how her son feels about his mother going to the press and expressing her views on the Military to whom he's employed and serves?  I believe her motives are purely personal ergo to push her agenda of supporting the peace movement.  She's exercising her rights under our charter, the same rights our Military protects and defends on a daily basis.  I believe it's called irony?




How come anytime someone comes out of the wood work with some wacky theory or opinion we feel the need to say we support their rights of freedom of expression etc..

Know who the victim here is? Her son.  Just think about it, he can't call home and bitch about hsi bad day at work or jerk of a boss without his mother running to the news papers  or whoever and writting about how her son has incompetent leadership and undergoing harsh conditions with poor training bla bla bla.

Not only is he in a war zone, he has to censor EVERYTHING he says.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (25 Mar 2007)

Because we do. That is what democracy is all about and some folks need to be reminded


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## p_imbeault (25 Mar 2007)

Flawed Design I respect that as a right to your freedom of expression, anything else just wouldn't be politically correct.  ^-^


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## The Bread Guy (4 Apr 2007)

And now, from the other side, shared with the usual disclaimer...

*Criticism of cadets unfounded print this article*
Program doesn't 'seduce' young people into military
John Boileau, Halifax Daily News, 21 Mar 07
Article link

I see that Andria Hill-Lehr is at it again. She's the Valley mom who's been complaining vociferously for the past year to anyone who will listen about the deployment of her son - 23-year-old reserve infantryman Cpl. Garrow Hill-Stosky - to Afghanistan.

In her latest verbal assaults, she makes the outlandish claims that the military are seducing impressionable youth into the Armed Forces before they have the ability to think critically. In particular, she accuses the cadet organization of teaching its members to follow, when they should be learning to think for themselves.

Hill-Lehr - who was formerly married to a military man and whose father was in the army during the Second World War - feels the words brainwashing and indoctrination have lost their emphasis today. She prefers to use the word "seduction" to describe how the Forces get young people to join.

Apparently, she's even writing a book about it.

Yes, young people do join cadets - it is a youth program, after all. And cadets do advertise for kids to join - as do several other organizations. That is hardly grounds for general and unsubstantiated criticism of the program.

No one may become a cadet without their parents' or guardians' signed permission, so it is ultimately the adults who decide if their children may join. Parents are encouraged to become aware of the program before their child joins, and informed they are expected to provide support, from assistance with fund-raising to transportation for training nights, sports and other events.

*Half the picture*

Since her son was 14 when he joined cadets, I can only assume that Hill-Lehr gave her permission and signed his forms to let him become a cadet in the first place. That is hardly the "seduction" she would have us believe takes place.

Hill-Lehr's claims that cadets are taught to follow presents only half the picture. In any organized program, there are followers and leaders. Before someone can be a leader, they must learn to be a follower. Contrary to her contention, the first stated aim of cadets is to develop leadership, and cadets progress up the leadership chain as they learn.

According to the vast majority of parents of the 58,000 boys and girls in cadets across the country, the cadets are doing a pretty good job at it. And there is absolutely no doubt that being in cadets has prevented many young people from developing into problem teens.

The instructors who teach cadets are members of the Cadet Instructor Cadre, a separate component of the Forces. They are not even trained as fighters, but as youth leaders.

Cadets are not members of the Canadian Forces, nor are they expected or coerced to join. As Capt. Hope Carr, the public-affairs officer for the Atlantic regional cadet organization, explains: "When a child joins hockey at the age of 10, it would be a leap of logic to assume that he has to become an NHL player as an adult. The same is true of the cadets."

It should be mentioned that some cadets do later enrol in the Forces - but many more pursue other vocations. Whatever career path former cadets follow, I firmly believe they will be better people for having been in cadets.

*Conflicted*

While Hill-Lehr obviously loves her son and is concerned about him, it seems to me she's a conflicted mom. She has a son who's gone from cadets to the reserves to an operational deployment - yet her statements make it clear she's anti-military. He's in a combat zone - but she's obviously a pacifist. He's in Afghanistan voluntarily - and she doesn't support the Canadian Forces' presence there.

It's just a slightly different take on the old story of the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.

I'm sure Hill-Lehr doesn't fully appreciate the possible harm she is doing to her son by her continuous harping. At a time when he most needs the support of his family, her criticisms can only be distracting and demoralizing.

That's not really the way you want someone to feel when they're in a situation where the risk of injury or death is a constant concern.

Hill-Lehr has every right to make her opinions known whenever and wherever she wants to. I just can't help feeling it would be a whole lot better if she held them back until her son returns home safely in June.

johnboileau@eastlink.ca

For the record, John Boileau supports cadets, the Canadian Forces and our mission in Afghanistan.



Betcha a loonie the phrase "child soldiers" will appear in her book.....


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## civmick (5 Apr 2007)

there are those who consider even Scouting to be militaristic - one of them asked me about it when I was about 13 or so.

I think it's hilarious that people are worried about kids being regimented while the cult of helicopter parenting is scheduling any initiative out of youngsters from the cradle up before scouts or cadets get next nor near them.


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## Hawk (5 Apr 2007)

Put her last name in your search engine-she's well-known for these rants, it seems. There are way too many links to put in here. The Cadet forum is particularly good.

I was thinking-if we can do this right. Maybe we should e-mail her son and offer our support WITHOUT ANY reference to his mother, of course. We may be all the support he gets. Comments?


Hawk


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## gaspasser (5 Apr 2007)

I somewhat feel bad for her son to have to put up with the ridicule and leering looks of his cohorts {probably}.
I thank the gods that, although my mom and dad don't truely agree with the war in Afghanistan, they DO support and stand behind our troops and wish them well.  
My mom cried when I told her I was going "overthere", and said the ancient Roman father's creed, "With your shield or on it"
We all HAVE to support what this woman says, it is our lot in life; and like most times, we don't agree with what she says.
Confused rant off


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## medic65726 (5 Apr 2007)

I do not believe either that the Cadet system brainwashes our youth and would be more than happy if my son when he is older chooses to join as well. Then again I would be proud of him if he joined the CF when older as well. I spent 5 years in Army Cadets, loved every minute of it, and was free to make my own decisions. It certianly does not teach children to just blindly follow, but to first follow and learn and then lead. I decided for many reasons when I aged out of Cadets, not to join the CF, and made the decision to become a Paramedic. I've worked as a Paramedic since leaving school, and as a Flight Paramedic for over 6 years now and don't regret my choice at all. I just serve my country in a different sort of uniform. The organisation taught me a lot, helped me with the confidence to make it through job interviews, taught me how to present myself well in public, gave me an appreciation for the important work that serving members of the Forces do, and fostered and increased my love of the outdoors. I don't see any of these things as bad and think myself a better person for having gone through the Cadet system. I was supported in that time by my parents who have rather Left leaning political views, maybe coming from having helped hide Vietnam Draft Dodgers in their youth. They never criticized what I did as they saw the benefits of what I was doing. I would have been crushed if, having made the choice to serve my county overseas, and placing myself in the utmost danger, that my mother, while excercising her protected rights of free-speech rebuted my decision and said I was brainwashed. I'm sure it will make for some interesting dinner-table conversation when he's back. Just my 2 cents and I hope they all come back safe.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (5 Apr 2007)

Hawk said:
			
		

> Put her last name in your search engine-she's well-known for these rants, it seems. There are way too many links to put in here. The Cadet forum is particularly good.
> 
> I was thinking-if we can do this right. Maybe we should e-mail her son and offer our support WITHOUT ANY reference to his mother, of course. We may be all the support he gets. Comments?
> 
> ...



I think we should leave the poor guy alone. He knows what his mother is doing and getting unsolicited emails of support will be embarrassing. Let him soldier with dignity like everyone else. Just cause his mother has her "anti" opinions this has nothing to do with him. I'm sure he loves his mother and wishes she wasn't so vocal about this....but hey...we dont' get to dictate what our parents think or do....heck we don't even get to do that with our kids. As the father of 22 and 18 yr old boys I know that I've got very little say in what they think, say or do. It's all good. Leave the poor guy in peace.


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## GAP (5 Apr 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO  +1


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## Hawk (5 Apr 2007)

Good point. Remember and support him silently is a better idea. I stand corrected.


Hawk


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## SiG_22_Qc (1 May 2007)

Yes it's brainwashing, and you get it of your own free will isn't it? Live with it.

If you don't want to join the army, they're not going to get you in your home like in France or Russia.

Who's mother never worried for him if he was to go for Afghanistan? Come on be honest...women are more emotionnal, no hard feelings.


And if the civilians want to debate or criticize military operations it's their ******* democratic right, we're in Afghanistan to defend democracy? It's 100% democratic to get criticized.
Every canadian soldiers that go to afghanistan go of his OWN free will. IF any support i need, it's from my wife and to the extent my family...you cannot make everyone happy.
getting sick to read: that criticizing a mission is unsupportive to the troops, it's totally un-linked, let the politicians do the politics.

As a canadian military we will go where we're asked to go, and show a responsible image of our country as everyone's expecting us to.

And at some point we got influenced/charmed/brainwashed in our youth, maybe i've watched too much G.I JOE'S  :blotto:


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## SeaDog (15 Aug 2007)

Just finished watching a news clip on CTV News in Halifax.  The segment featured a mother whose son had joined the reserves and she was positive he was seduced and brainswashed by CF propoganda that glamourized war.  It then led into a CF document that was obtained which outlined that the CF was concentrating on efforts to recruit young, action oriented males via the internet.  The icing on the cake was an interview with the NDP defense critic.  My wife (she's CF as well) and I were surprised at the choice of words.  We usually reserve the terms seducing and preying upon for drug dealers and pedophiles.  It seemed all interviewed were horrified that the CF would use the internet and video games as manner of recruitment...  As a reg force officer I am extremely proud of the profession of arms I took up some ten years ago, and I was (naturally) insulted by the tone of the segment.  Which, in my opinion, was a non-news item.  Why can the CF not use the same mediums of recruitment as any other organization/business.  Well, enough of my rant.  Curious if anyone else saw it and, if so, opinions.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Aug 2007)

:rofl: 

Sorry. I didn't see the piece (yet), and I'm not laghing at you SD. It's just the MSM & the Dippers never cease to amaze me. Just when I thought I'd seen and heard everything................ :deadhorse:


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## Roy Harding (15 Aug 2007)

I didn't see the piece.  But I do recall being "seduced" and "preyed upon" by a pretty young girl.  30 years later, she's still "seducing" and "preying upon" me.  Best thing that ever happened to me.

More to the point - there are myriad stories out there (and many right here on this board) of people joining the service in direct defiance of their parent's wishes.  I can only assume that such is the story here - unfortunately, in this particular case, the parent has been given a media soap-box from which to preach her point of view.

You're right - it's NOT "news", but it IS politics - witness the inclusion of the NDP Defense Critic.  And, by definition, "politics" is "news".

I feel more for the son of that particular Mom - I'm sure it's not fun trying to defend his Mom to his peers, while disagreeing with her statements.  Too bad SHE didn't think about that.


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## Blakey (15 Aug 2007)

I've seen the new recruiting commercials, new Recruiting website but, whats with the "video games" comment,  did they give any examples? 
To my knowledge, the Canadian Forces hasn't gone the route of "America's Army"  ???


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## Donut (15 Aug 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I didn't see the piece.  But I do recall being "seduced" and "preyed upon" by a pretty young girl.  30 years later, she's still "seducing" and "preying upon" me.  Best thing that ever happened to me.



My Cpl at 3VP UMS "Preyed upon and seduced" me, too.  It only took 11 years to get us to the padre!

On the topic at hand, hasn't this come up in the recent past?  Is this the same individual at it again, or another wing nut?  I've got CTV on in the background, and haven't seen it yet.


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## SeaDog (15 Aug 2007)

To clarify, the document they obtained stated that CF purchased a 13 week block of advertising on the net so that when people Googled for military themed video games a CF recruiting add would appear also.  The segment brought up the US Army sponsored game, and they even had the decency to include an interview with an expert warning against recruiting people who played video games as a result of their de-sensitization to violence and the possibility they may view real war as a glorified game as well.  The segment was just FULL of little nuggets to debate.  Feel free.


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## medaid (15 Aug 2007)

Actually... no... PMT YOU seduced me. Promising my glamour and a life of never ending glory. Instead... I get abused and treated like crap :'(. LOL. 


Meh, honestly, I don't seduce anyone when I go out there to talk to people. I just find parents who think that way hilarious. Must be one of those 1950s black and white happy family types.


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## SeaDog (15 Aug 2007)

As for the channel, it was on the Halifax local portion of the CTV news (CTV Atlantic) and therefore may not be covered in the national CTV coverage.  Mother was local to Nova Scotia here.


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## Jaydub (15 Aug 2007)

SeaDog said:
			
		

> The segment featured a mother whose son had joined the reserves and she was positive he was seduced and brainswashed by CF propoganda that glamourized war.



Good god.  This young reservist must be mortified. 

If I saw my Mother saying stuff like this on TV, it would be one less Mother's Day card I'd have to send!


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## Blakey (15 Aug 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> On the topic at hand, hasn't this come up in the recent past?  Is this the same individual at it again, or another wing nut?  I've got CTV on in the background, and haven't seen it yet.


Andria Hill- Lehr?
Edit to add Link


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## formerarmybrat23 (15 Aug 2007)

I don't believe this will hurt recruiting at all. Making the decison to join is up to the individual, no matter how much "preying" goes on. Also, with the length of the recruting process there is more then enough time to ponder your choice. Its easier to back out of the army then univeristy, at least we don't ask people for a deposit!  ;D

As for this mother, i wouldn't be surprised if this was the same mom from the newspaper article a few months ago.  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58906.0.html . She was insistant that the CF brainwashed her son. Give me a break people. It sounds as though the parents aren't satisfied with their childerns choices, and are frustrated they can no longer control them. You have to cut the cord eventually, parents need to learn to let go.


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## Haggis (15 Aug 2007)

Cataract Kid said:
			
		

> Andria Hill- Lehr?
> Edit to add Link



"Hmmmmm", says I.  Sounds familiar. 
So I use Army-dot-see-eh "GoogleFu" to find http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58906.0.html

"Swish" goes my cape, "clink" goes my spyglass and LO!  A similarity in theme and location!

WATSON!!!


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## SeaDog (15 Aug 2007)

That does indeed seem to be the same woman that started the segment (not positive as it was only a brief sound-bite from her at the beginning) on military recruitment.  That being said, I still have to shake my head over the furor caused over the "documents" outlining recruitment practices.  I still see no reason why the internet is not a viable source of recruitment for the CF.  Then again I also think the US Army video game is stroke of recruitment of genius... (Heaven forbid we recruit young, able bodied,  techno savvy youth.)  Mr. Harding's statement on politics, however, probably is the best sum up.


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## Roy Harding (15 Aug 2007)

Medtech and PMT:

Let's keep this on topic.


ARMY.CA STAFF


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## Donut (15 Aug 2007)

Ack.  Feel free to clean it up.


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## Haggis (15 Aug 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Medtech and PMT:
> 
> Let's keep this on topic.
> 
> ...



Thank you Roy!!!  (This was getting really hard to follow.... something like channel surfing between CTV and Showcase after a night in the Mess)


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## medaid (15 Aug 2007)

Ya, my bad. Sorry Roy and PMT.


On to the topic and my personal views. It is ridiculous to believe that the military is 'seducing' the bright young minds of the Canadian public.

We are no more seducing then the LEO, the F1 drivers, the Pizza delivery company and airlines etc. Everyone is hiring these days, because of the apparent 'shortage' of workers. Just because we have not been THIS actively recruiting in the past, does not mean we don't exist (but apparently many parents think so). The lack of education and proper community outreach has caused many of these ill-advised and ill-informed and not to mention ignorant parents to exist.

The same type of people who likes fast cars, adventure and so on and so forth, are more likely to enjoy a life in the military, LEO or any other jobs which offer them that type of excitement. Just because they join the CF, does not mean that we've implanted subliminal messages into our T.V adds. Besides, I haven't seen our adds on the box for quite some time now, and honestly the past recruiting adds and even the most recent ones are TAME IMO. 

I don't know. More information and education would change many people's ignorance... but not all. Seduction and preying of these young people is just another uneducated parent's concern. Which I honestly don't blame. I do however, see this as a problem, as in how do we address it and fix it? Maybe having townhall meetings with many of these concerned parents are just what's needed. 

I honestly attempt to talk to everyone of my recruit's parents, if they're young. Or I try, especially when they come in for a face to face. Education my fellow soldiers... education is the key. Because god knows, the government and the public schooling system just ain't doing it for us.


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## SeaDog (15 Aug 2007)

A lot of truth to be had in your comment on education, MedTech, and it indeed starts at home.  Eventhough I had spent years in cadets and the reserves before I decided to enlist I was amazed at how little my own parents truly understood the career I was embarking upon once I had graduated university and transferred Reg Force.  8 years later I still find myself having to be patient with them as I explain things about work.  One need only imagine what runs in the minds of those parents and other members of the community who have had little or no exposure to the military.  I do, however, find the reaction of a great many people to the CF's recruiting efforts interesting.  All knowledge of the military aside, it doesn't take a Rhode's Scholar to postulate that the CF is of course going to use every medium available to recruit into our ranks.  It only makes sense to take the message to the target audience - young adults.  You find young adults today increasingly on places like the Internet.  What I have taken away from this is that the general populace (or rather the general populace as depicted by the media - infer what you will) has a problem with who are target audience is .  Ipso facto, they have a problem with what we do for a living.  If they didn't, why strive to protect "innocent" 18 year old "adolescents" from falling prey to our cunning recruitment attempts.  BTW.  Don't get me going about how much I think we shelter youth today.  (My great-uncle hit Juno just after his 16th birthday and my grandfather was working as a lumberjack by the time he was 13)...


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## IN HOC SIGNO (15 Aug 2007)

On another thread a journalism student said that they are supposed to use the acronym SIN (Significant, Interesting and New) to decide whether an item is news...I don't see how this meets any of that criteria. Maybe he forgot their other acronym AGENDA


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## Red 6 (15 Aug 2007)

Just to give everyone some frame of reference about me, I served for three years as a US Army recruiter from 92-95 and spent 37 months on numbers. I never rolled a donut and made my quality mission every single month but I missed my volume mission a couple of months. Recruiters take a lot of flak and they have a tough job, some say the toughest in the Army. This is just my gut instinct, but I'll bet at least 70% of the folks I enlisted found out about the Army because we found them, not the other way around. I don't remember the exact number anymore, but I enlisted around 60-65 new Soldiers when I was a recruiter.

Finding about the Army is not an epiphany-type experience for most prospective enlistees and the mission is tied into the end-strength of the Army. Advertising is sort of like planting seeds and someday hopefully that seed Will germinate and the kid will either decide to go talk to the recruiters, or a recruiter will find the kid and the kid will already have been thinking about enlisting. In my experience, most walk-in traffic to our station was unqualified and our quality market was in the high schools and local community colleges. 

Today there are so many competing messages getting sent out to young people and the armed forces are fighting for numbers with colleges, vocational schools and who knows what else. There's a lot of friction out there and the recruiting message needs to be exciting, clear and not only acceptable to the kids, but also to their parents. A couple of years ago the US Army scrapped it old "Be All You Can be" campaign and adopted the "Army of One" message for a few years. They did survey after survey and kids in the recruiting age identified with that message even though serving Soldiers hated it. Then last year the Army adopted the new "Army Strong" campaign, which is supposed to be more in line with the Army's core values and so forth.

Now someone who is anti-military might (incorrectly) say that the services prey on young guys with high speed, low drag recruiting commercials. It's the same old song and dance that some people use down here saying we unfairly target minorities and poor people in our Army recruitment, even though year after year the true numbers blow that argument out of the water. Counter-recruitment folks will always find another argument since what they have to say isn't rooted in reality, but in their own tired opinions that wore out when the draft ended in the United States. They just can't accept the fact that people can actually enlist of their own free will and that recruiters still don't hold a gun to recruits' heads to make them sign on the dotted line.


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## 1feral1 (15 Aug 2007)

I was recruited when the CF came to my high-school, back in Regina, and that was 1976!

Nothing wrong with that, but with a war on now, the media will play this to the end.


Wankers!


Wes


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## Rick Ruter (16 Aug 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Ya, my bad. Sorry Roy and PMT.
> 
> 
> On to the topic and my personal views. It is ridiculous to believe that the military is 'seducing' the bright young minds of the Canadian public.
> ...



Med Tec you are right. The two TV adds were designed for the target audience (that's the 18-24) with the add that has the action in it. The second add with all the support trades (flood in MB,...) was meant for the influencers such as parents and school teachers. They are shown at different times based on who's watching when. Right now, everyone is on holidays so no point in throwing money in the wind. You'll see adds come back in the fall.

Town hall meetings are becoming more popular because of what you said. The influencers are the ones we need to convince that the CF is an employer of choice and a good life for their kids.

I remember too when I was in the militia in the 80s we used to display .50cal, FNs, SMGs and GPMGs in High Schools for recruiting. Now we have parent committees against weapons in schools so we have to find other ways of attracting.


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