# Hockey Canada in the Government Crosshairs



## Spencer100 (22 Jun 2022)

Liberal have put Hockey Canada in the spot light



			Ottawa freezing Hockey Canada funding amid firestorm over alleged sex assaults
		


As I am not to believe the Liberals at face value.   To me this smells like an agenda driven witch hunt.  Yes sure mistakes and out right abuse may have happened.  I'm sure the courts and the organization can a dress the issues. This is the federal gov pile on.

This gets Trudeau off the front pages.  It targets a part of the society that is politically not aligned with the progressive agenda.  Liberals are never stopping.   Hockey is one last baston of old Canada.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> ... mistakes and out right abuse may have happened.  I'm sure the courts and the organization can a dress the issues ...


Team Red has _not_ made itself look trustworthy in all sorts of ways, for sure, but the same rationale above could be applied to a lot of groups, with varying levels of effectiveness in dealing with the problem.


Spencer100 said:


> ... Hockey is one last baston of old Canada.


Maybe, but what some would consider other "bastions of old Canada" (like churches) have made & continue to make mistakes.  

Also, it comes down to how much you trust the institution to fix its own mistakes.  Sounds like you think the organization will get it sorted.  Other people's mileage may vary considerably.  Under the Charter, all are presumed innocent until convicted via due process, but try Googling names like "Graham James," "Bernie Lynch, "Brad Aldrich," "Robert Donald Joseph Dawson" or "Kelvin Cheuk-Ho Lee" with the terms "hockey" & "abuse" to see how some players may have, to copy a phrase, experienced this bastion of old Canada differently.


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## QV (22 Jun 2022)

I don't think it's any coincidence they drummed out Grapes when they did.

He was popular, outspoken, not politically correct, and had a large platform. All things the progressive left abhor in their rivals. I think he would have had a lot to say over the last few years.


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## Spencer100 (22 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Team Red has _not_ made itself look trustworthy in all sorts of ways, for sure, but the same rationale above could be applied to a lot of groups, with varying levels of effectiveness in dealing with the problem.
> 
> Maybe, but what some would consider other "bastions of old Canada" (like churches) have made & continue to make mistakes.
> 
> Also, it comes down to how much you trust the institution to fix its own mistakes.  Sounds like you think the organization will get it sorted.  Other people's mileage may vary considerably.  Under the Charter, all are presumed innocent until convicted via due process, but try Googling names like "Graham James," "Bernie Lynch, "Brad Aldrich," "Robert Donald Joseph Dawson" or "Kelvin Cheuk-Ho Lee" with the terms "hockey" & "abuse" to see how some players may have, to copy a phrase, experienced this bastion of old Canada differently.


Yup and they systematically riding Canada of churches (they are good at doing that to themselves too) Churches were a large impediment to the larger goals.  But really this is a political move against something in the other camp.  I also believe the many other orgs are targeted this way because it works.  At a minimum training and reeducation course are implemented.  Which will increase costs and decrease effectiveness.   As I have posted on an other thread they never stop.


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## Underway (22 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Liberal have put Hockey Canada in the spot light



So you're going after the federal government, for suspending funding, to an organization that (in some cases) enabled sexual predators and didn't protect kids from said predators?    

I think you have that wrong. Hockey Canada put itself in the spotlight.  Hockey Canada is such a screwed-up institution that the Liberals are forced to suspend their funding until they unscrew themselves.  Frankly, I'm surprised that their private doners haven't run for the hills yet.  Do you think Scotiabank wants to be associated with that?


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## OldSolduer (22 Jun 2022)

Underway said:


> So you're going after the federal government, for suspending funding, to an organization that (in some cases) enabled sexual predators and didn't protect kids from said predators?
> 
> I think you have that wrong. Hockey Canada put itself in the spotlight.  Hockey Canada is such a screwed-up institution that the Liberals are forced to suspend their funding until they unscrew themselves.  Frankly, I'm surprised that their private doners haven't run for the hills yet.  Do you think Scotiabank wants to be associated with that?


I will agree with you here - Hockey Canada did this to itself.

Maybe its time an outsider took the reins and cleaned house - without going overboard - and gain the trust of Canadians again..

I have a grandson who is skilled - I am worried about coaches and staff being predators.

ADDING : as for Scotiabank they can be a big help with "sort yourselves out. You have six months (or a reasonable time frame) or we - Scotiabank are out"


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## Spencer100 (22 Jun 2022)

Underway said:


> So you're going after the federal government, for suspending funding, to an organization that (in some cases) enabled sexual predators and didn't protect kids from said predators?
> 
> I think you have that wrong. Hockey Canada put itself in the spotlight.  Hockey Canada is such a screwed-up institution that the Liberals are forced to suspend their funding until they unscrew themselves.  Frankly, I'm surprised that their private doners haven't run for the hills yet.  Do you think Scotiabank wants to be associated with that?


Ok fair enough.  But it still stinks to me.  

"St-Onge said in an interview that millions of dollars in federal funding to Hockey Canada is being cut off until the organization signs up with newly created Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner -- which was created to ensure independent investigation of abuse allegations.

She also was quoted as saying in that interview that Hockey Canada must meet additional requirements before funding will be restored."

Its a power grab of the institutions.  Why does the federal government even have this office?  why do we have Sports Canada?


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## SupersonicMax (22 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Ok fair enough.  But it still stinks to me.
> 
> "St-Onge said in an interview that millions of dollars in federal funding to Hockey Canada is being cut off until the organization signs up with newly created Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner -- which was created to ensure independent investigation of abuse allegations.
> 
> ...


Power over what exactly?


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## Spencer100 (22 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Power over what exactly?


Office of Sports Integrity sounds pretty much like a power grab.  So every governing sports body now has a boss to report too.  I feels like an over reach.  But I am not a centralized power guy.   We have had sport governing bodies for over a 100 years I don't think its a role for the federal government.  

Yes bad things have happened.  And look the law and the courts are dealing with the cases.  

Have you seen the layers of stuff you have do today to be on the bench of your son's team?  Every player has to have a course in sexual and respect.  Every parent has to take a course.  (its terribly presented but still)  I don't think anymore oversight will change any outcomes.  Its a way to have control plain and simple.


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## dapaterson (22 Jun 2022)

If you don't want government money, you can avoid their funding requirements.  It's not hard.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jun 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> ADDING : as for Scotiabank they can be a big help with "sort yourselves out. You have six months (or a reasonable time frame) or we - Scotiabank are out"


VERY good point - if more sponsors did that, I suspect more could happen more quickly, given how "money talks," especially in an organization that reportedly pulls in more than 1 out of every 4 bucks of its budget through sponsorships.



dapaterson said:


> If you don't want government money, you can avoid their funding requirements.  It's not hard.


Another good point.  If we believe sportsnet.ca, feds contribute 6% of Hockey Canada's budget.  Wanna be free of the yoke of government's demands?  Hockey Canada can find 6% in their organization to live without while sorting out sexual abuse allegations as it sees fit.


Spencer100 said:


> ... "St-Onge said in an interview that millions of dollars in federal funding to Hockey Canada is being cut off until the organization signs up with newly created Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner -- which was created to ensure independent investigation of abuse allegations.
> 
> She also was quoted as saying in that interview that Hockey Canada must meet additional requirements before funding will be restored." ...


Here's what else is being asked for ...


> ...  Hockey Canada will also have to make public the report and recommendations it received from Toronto law firm Henein Hutchison LLP, which did the initial external probe of the allegations, along with its plan to change the "culture of silence" in the organization ...


Given how much people complain (rightly so) about the transparency of all sorts of institutions, that doesn't seem unreasonable if Canada pumps in ~$7.8 milliion/year - especially given the ... broadness of answers when asked about the issue ...


> ... During question period on Tuesday, St-Onge had said she was "not satisfied" with the testimony from Hockey Canada top leaders the previous day at the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.
> 
> Scott Smith, president of the organization, had been asked by Liberal MP Anthony Housefather how many other allegations of sexual assault Hockey Canada has received over the past decade.
> 
> ...


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## Halifax Tar (22 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Liberal have put Hockey Canada in the spot light
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My two brothers were both on full rides hockey at NCAA schools in the US, and they played Junior hockey in Ontario.  Not to mention the rep teams ect ect growing up.

Hockey has serious problems.  And it has to do with behavior and sense of entitlement by players and coaches.  And this includes sexual activity. 

It's no different thank Football in the US, Rugby in NZ and soccer all over the world.  And pretty similar to our vaunted senior leadership. 

Good on the Liberal gov for trying to force Hockey Canada's hand and get them to take action.  No organization should hide or shelter abusers be they sexual or otherwise.  We need to weed the garden folks.

*PS: My two brothers have refused to put on skates since university hockey ended for them.

**PPS: I detest the sport of hockey with every inch of my being.  I hope to wake up one morning and the sport is dead and gone, never to return.  Self bias admitted.


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## SupersonicMax (22 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Office of Sports Integrity sounds pretty much like a power grab.  So every governing sports body now has a boss to report too.  I feels like an over reach.  But I am not a centralized power guy.   We have had sport governing bodies for over a 100 years I don't think its a role for the federal government.
> 
> Yes bad things have happened.  And look the law and the courts are dealing with the cases.
> 
> Have you seen the layers of stuff you have do today to be on the bench of your son's team?  Every player has to have a course in sexual and respect.  Every parent has to take a course.  (its terribly presented but still)  I don't think anymore oversight will change any outcomes.  Its a way to have control plain and simple.


Again, power over what?  I doubt the government needs or wants any power over Hockey Canada.


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## OldSolduer (22 Jun 2022)

The NHL needs to look too. Chicago Blackhawks had one case.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jun 2022)

Sadly, it can happen anyplace where someone is in a position of authority over someone else - sounds like hockey at many levels isn't immune


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Team Red has _not_ made itself look trustworthy in all sorts of ways, for sure, but the same rationale above could be applied to a lot of groups, with varying levels of effectiveness in dealing with the problem.
> 
> Maybe, but what some would consider other "bastions of old Canada" (like churches) have made & continue to make mistakes.
> 
> Also, it comes down to how much you trust the institution to fix its own mistakes.  Sounds like you think the organization will get it sorted.  Other people's mileage may vary considerably.  Under the Charter, all are presumed innocent until convicted via due process, but try Googling names like "Graham James," "Bernie Lynch, "Brad Aldrich," "Robert Donald Joseph Dawson" or "Kelvin Cheuk-Ho Lee" with the terms "hockey" & "abuse" to see how some players may have, to copy a phrase, experienced this bastion of old Canada differently.


JT does not like hockey, because they don't allow elbowing your opponent


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Again, power over what?  I doubt the government needs or wants any power over Hockey Canada.


Oh I don't know. Hockey seems like a prime battle ground to wave and plant the flag of inclusivity.


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## SupersonicMax (22 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Oh I don't know. Hockey seems like a prime battle ground to wave and plant the flag of inclusivity.


So, we’re talking about young Canadians getting sexually assaulted/raped this exercise is about inclusivity?


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> So, we’re talking about young Canadians getting sexually assaulted/raped this exercise is about inclusivity?


Do you put scoring political points and votes on the backs of victims past our government?

I certainly don't.

That said, personally I think this is a great move by the Liberal government. I feel like a hell of a lot more should have been done to address this, but this is a good start.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jun 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> JT does not like hockey, because they don't allow elbowing your opponent


... or because in hockey, the opponent can elbow you back.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Jun 2022)

Meanwhile the CAF be like:


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Jun 2022)

Honestly good move by the Government.  National Sporting Bodies in this Country are for the most part, poorly run and massively nepotistic dumpster fires.

Government funding perpetuates this mediocrity which is why Canada generally punches below its weight in most sports.


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## brihard (22 Jun 2022)

So, I was unfamiliar with this til I saw it reported on today. To my initial understanding, Hockey Canada basically was directed to fully disclose a third party investigative report into an alleged gang rape at one of their events to a parliamentary committee. They declined to, were given further opportunity to comply, and continued to not do so. They have also declined to sign on to a federal oversight body, so now they’re losing a few million dollars in federal funding?

I mean… if that reasonably sums it up, I don’t really take issue with with funding being withheld. They want federal money, cool. It’s reasonable for some oversight and governance to come with that.


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## OldSolduer (22 Jun 2022)

It has been said here but to reiterate every sport has its issues - look at gymnastics in the USA. 

Indeed every organization has its predators - we all know that. Hockey is in the spotlight right now and next month it might be some other organization.


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## brihard (23 Jun 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It has been said here but to reiterate every sport has its issues - look at gymnastics in the USA.
> 
> Indeed every organization has its predators - we all know that. Hockey is in the spotlight right now and next month it might be some other organization.


For sure. Goose/Gander. If other sports have significant enough poorly addresses conduct issues as to necessitate federal funding to be contingent on oversight, have at ‘er.


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## KevinB (23 Jun 2022)

USA Hockey
					






					www.usahockey.com
				





USAHockey has the SafeSport program that all volunteers, Coaches, Referees and sport bodies need to conduct training under and fallow reporting processes, In addition to State, and Federal laws.


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## SupersonicMax (23 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> USA Hockey
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a similar program with Hockey Canada (Respect in Sport) that all parents, players, volunteers, coaches, referees and officials need to take, and Hockey Canada also requires a background check.


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## Good2Golf (23 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> There is a similar program with Hockey Canada (Respect in Sport) that all parents, players, volunteers, coaches, referees and officials need to take, and Hockey Canada also requires a background check.


Tools are but one factor.  Culture, to use such tools or not, is another.

The CAF had OP HONOUR…


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## SupersonicMax (23 Jun 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Tools are but one factor.  Culture, to use such tools or not, is another.
> 
> The CAF had OP HONOUR…


Agreed. This was partly my point that even with a program, abuses still happened.


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## IKnowNothing (23 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> So, I was unfamiliar with this til I saw it reported on today. To my initial understanding, Hockey Canada basically was directed to fully disclose a third party investigative report into an alleged gang rape at one of their events to a parliamentary committee. They declined to, were given further opportunity to comply, and continued to not do so. They have also declined to sign on to a federal oversight body, so now they’re losing a few million dollars in federal funding?
> 
> I mean… if that reasonably sums it up, I don’t really take issue with with funding being withheld. They want federal money, cool. It’s reasonable for some oversight and governance to come with that.


Not to mention, when you look at who they retained to complete that investigative report, and infer the likely motives and contents, it's pretty likely that the release of the report would be a public relations bombshell of biblical proportions. 

You don't retain Henein Hutchison to complete a well meaning investigation to get to the bottom of things and provide accountability, you do it to cover your organizational ass.


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## QV (23 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Agreed. This was partly my point that even with a program, abuses still happened.


Because no matter how many DLN courses, programs, or taxes are imposed on a people, some people will still be bad people.


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## dapaterson (23 Jun 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Tools are but one factor.  Culture, to use such tools or not, is another.
> 
> The CAF had OP HONOUR…


Only Nixon could go to China.

Only Jon Vance...


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> For sure. Goose/Gander. If other sports have significant enough poorly addresses conduct issues as to necessitate federal funding to be contingent on oversight, have at ‘er.



I know a few athletes who operated at the International/ Olympic level for years and they told me some pretty blood chilling stories.

My key takeaway: if you want success in athletics, you're going to have to be prepared to encounter alot of 'child abuse'. 

Kind of like my old mob


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## brihard (24 Jun 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I know a few athletes who operated at the International/ Olympic level for years and they told me some pretty blood chilling stories.
> 
> My key takeaway: if you want success in athletics, you're going to have to be prepared to encounter alot of 'child abuse'.
> 
> ...


I’ve heard that too. I’m just reasonably sure rape is outside the tolerated arcs.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ve heard that too. I’m just reasonably sure rape is outside the tolerated arcs.



If it was the CAF, based on what I heard about some of the stuff that really goes on behind the scenes, Canada would be without an Armed Forces as they would disband it tomorrow.

People will tolerate some amazing things in the vanishingly small chance that a Canadian kid will medal at an Olympics.

Needless to say, I'm glad that my kids show no interest (or aptitude) for participating in elite sports


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2022)

More examples from those in sports other than hockey....


Lives ruined by abuse in sports made worse by fear of retaliation, athletes say​'They can’t seek justice, they aren’t believed, they’re silenced in many cases,' says Olympic gold medallist


Since March 2022, more than 1,000 athletes, including gymnasts, have penned open letters detailing abuse and toxic environments — and asking for a third-party investigations. (Rebecca Blackwell/The Associated Press)

From as young as two years old, Amelia Cline loved gymnastics. But her experience with the sport changed for the worst when new coaches joined her gym.

"Unfortunately, for about the last three years of my career, I was in a gym where we had coaches who were quite verbally, psychologically and physically abusive," she told _The Current__._

Despite her successes, the abuse had become too much for the young Cline to handle — she was done with the sport by the age of 13.
"While I still continued to have success in the sport, the experience became very negative and quite harmful," she said.

Cline's story isn't unique in gymnastics — or in Canadian sports. Since March, more than 1,000 Canadian athletes have called for third-party independent investigations into athlete abuse in sports.



			https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-june-21-2022-1.6495709/lives-ruined-by-abuse-in-sports-made-worse-by-fear-of-retaliation-athletes-say-1.6498995


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## Eaglelord17 (24 Jun 2022)

Personally I don't see a issue with cutting funds, especially if they aren’t willing to have a slight amount of accountability. If anything I would argue it isn’t their responsibility to fund them at all in the first place and it is a waste of my tax dollars. We have bigger fish to fry as a society (such as trying to reduce our national debt, or at a bare minimum get back to a balanced budget) than to worry about a bit of funding going towards a sport I really have no interest in whatsoever.


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## The Bread Guy (24 Jun 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> ... People will tolerate some amazing things in the vanishingly small chance that a Canadian kid will medal at an Olympics/make it into the NHL-CFL-insert professional league of choice here ....


Sad but true add ...


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## KevinB (25 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> There is a similar program with Hockey Canada (Respect in Sport) that all parents, players, volunteers, coaches, referees and officials need to take, and Hockey Canada also requires a background check.


It can’t just be a program to check the box. 
   It’s got to have total buy in from all levels and people who aren’t afraid to call attention to abuse.


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## OldSolduer (25 Jun 2022)

When I said there are predators in hockey I meant the human kind. I do worry about them. 

Not the ones in Nashville.


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## KevinB (25 Jun 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> When I said there are predators in hockey I meant the human kind. I do worry about them.
> 
> Not the ones in Nashville.


At our League, we as coaches don’t have one on one interactions with players, and in the changing/locker rooms there are always two adults (Coach and an assistant or both assistants).


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## Weinie (25 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> At our League, we as coaches don’t have one on one interactions with players,* and in the chasing rooms *there are always two adults (Coach and an assistant or both assistants).


Yikes. Serious Freudian slip there.


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## KevinB (25 Jun 2022)

Stupid phone. I don’t have my reading glasses atm - so I’m at the mercy of autocorrect


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## Weinie (25 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> Stupid phone. I don’t have my reading glasses atm - so I’m at the mercy of autocorrect


Figured that.   Just remember, Internet is forever.


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## Remius (25 Jun 2022)

CDS appointment for Kevin now ruined…


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## PuckChaser (25 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> At our League, we as coaches don’t have one on one interactions with players, and in the changing/locker rooms there are always two adults (Coach and an assistant or both assistants).


Hockey Canada has a "2 deep" rule as well.

My issue with the funds being cut is we all know where it will hit: grassroots hockey for young kids. It's certainly not going to cut high performance and elite hockey programs.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> ... My issue with the funds being cut is we all know where it will hit: grassroots hockey for young kids. It's certainly not going to cut high performance and elite hockey programs.


The organization is losing 6% of its funding if it doesn't do what the feds ask.  As others smarter than me have said, if they don't want to do what's being asked, they don't have to take the federal money.

Look at it another (admittedly extreme) way.  The headline before this happened could have been ...

I'm guessing a lot of people not happy with Team Red would be outraged at that headline for *any* organization, right?


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## PuckChaser (25 Jun 2022)

I mean who cares if it's true, right? There's a ton more to the story that was the catalyst for the funding freeze. I find it really odd the woman refused to cooperate with police, but was willing to file a lawsuit later on.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> I mean who cares if it's true, right? There's a ton more to the story that was the catalyst for the funding freeze. I find it really odd the woman refused to cooperate with police, but was willing to file a lawsuit later on.


Wouldn't be the first or last sexual abuse victim (of any sex, really) not to trust police or "the system" to be able to get things done 

Also, it seems Teams Red, Blue & Orange seem to want to get to the bottom of this ....








						House approves motion on Hockey Canada investigation
					

The motion, proposed by Bloc Quebecois MP Sebastian Lemire, was made to pursue a probe "to figure out if this was an isolated event or if there were shortcomings with the way Hockey Canada handles complaints of sexual assault, sexual harassment and other types of misconduct."




					theathletic.com


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## Kat Stevens (25 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> At our League, we as coaches don’t have one on one interactions with players, and in the changing/locker rooms there are always two adults (Coach and an assistant or both assistants).


But do you still get to kick garbage cans around and call them "pylons" and "pheasants"? tradition is important, y'know.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Wouldn't be the first or last sexual abuse victim (of any sex, really) not to trust police or "the system" to be able to get things done
> 
> Also, it seems Teams Red, Blue & Orange seem to want to get to the bottom of this ....
> 
> ...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jun 2022)

Since, as The Bread Guy pointed out, all the parties are on board, I've changed the thread title from "Liberals" to " Government "
Bruce


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## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Jun 2022)

And Bank of Nova Scotia has pulled funding.








						Heavyweight sponsors distance themselves from Hockey Canada amid sexual assault scandal
					

Scotiabank is pausing its Hockey Canada sponsorship deal in response to sexual assault allegations that have embroiled the sports group




					financialpost.com


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## OldSolduer (28 Jun 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And Bank of Nova Scotia has pulled funding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I noticed that this morning. Good job and I hope all sports are rid of these utterly disgusting people.


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## quadrapiper (29 Jun 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> ...grassroots hockey for young kids.


_If_ funding is ever restored, as well as being contingent on comprehensive anti-abuse measures etc., it should be dedicated solely to support low-level youth (and possibly adult) sport. The only _public good _in entities like Hockey Canada is providing a venue or motivator for physical activity and related benefits _at the local level_.

Picking up medals (or even showing up) at the international level isn't worth a single taxpayer dollar in any sport.


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## Spencer100 (30 Jun 2022)

quadrapiper said:


> _If_ funding is ever restored, as well as being contingent on comprehensive anti-abuse measures etc., it should be dedicated solely to support low-level youth (and possibly adult) sport. The only _public good _in entities like Hockey Canada is providing a venue or motivator for physical activity and related benefits _at the local level_.
> 
> Picking up medals (or even showing up) at the international level isn't worth a single taxpayer dollar in any sport.


I am of the total opposite view.  Get Hockey Canada out of anything to do with local and youth sport.  Have them stay in their lane of international and elite sport.  Let parents and locals run the kid stuff.  The stuff, rules and regulations I see from Hockey Canada are useless.


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## quadrapiper (30 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I am of the total opposite view.  Get Hockey Canada out of anything to do with local and youth sport.  Have them stay in their lane of international and elite sport.  Let parents and locals run the kid stuff.  The stuff, rules and regulations I see from Hockey Canada are useless.


In that case, make the funding withdrawal permanent.


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## SupersonicMax (30 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I am of the total opposite view.  Get Hockey Canada out of anything to do with local and youth sport.  Have them stay in their lane of international and elite sport.  Let parents and locals run the kid stuff.  The stuff, rules and regulations I see from Hockey Canada are useless.


I disagree.  The Hockey Canada development program is actually good. For all levels.  There are other good ones but they are generally reserved for higher tier hockey (and are a lot more expensive).  If you want something of reasonable quality that is affordable, you’ll need something like Hockey Canada.  One of my son plays higher tier hockey and my other is in lower tier and both are afforded the same time and effort.  It is already mostly run by locals and parent using the Hockey Canada framework.


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## KevinB (30 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> I disagree.  The Hockey Canada development program is actually good. For all levels.  There are other good ones but they are generally reserved for higher tier hockey (and are a lot more expensive).  If you want something of reasonable quality that is affordable, you’ll need something like Hockey Canada.  One of my son plays higher tier hockey and my other is in lower tier and both are afforded the same time and effort.  It is already mostly run by locals and parent using the Hockey Canada framework.


Ditto.

A lot of what is in use down here by USA Hockey as far as the Athlete Development Model, etc was pioneering in Canada by Hockey Canada.
  I can guarantee you that today's method of both policing the sport, and training the players is head and shoulders of what I was exposed to in Canada 40+ years ago when I played hockey.

Nothing is perfect, and clearly this incident has shown that there are still major issues in some areas, BUT it has gotten better, and public pressure can only help make it better.


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## lenaitch (30 Jun 2022)

I know little of the current HC controversy or how HC operates, but I suppose how you view public funding towards sport, any sport, and the role sport plays in the national psyche will impact your view.  Even though the odds of any one kid making the NHL is infinitesimally small, the journey starts at the local level.   Canada use to own the NHL because of this feeder network that started with every hamlet having a rink of some sort.  Over time, things got more organized with inter-league play, tournaments, etc.  Other countries learned, particularly the US that has made significant improvements to their feeder system.   I see similar changes in curling but for different reasons.

When kids are involved, there will always be the challenge of weeding out exploiters.  The system has to remain focused on this and not turn a blind eye from a coach because Team A is winning.  In my view, it also needs to defend itself from parents, advocates and psychologists.  Above a certain age, the game migrates from just fun, and pointed direction, even criticism, isn't, in and of itself, abusive.  In that sense, it reflects, hmm, life.


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Jun 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And Bank of Nova Scotia has pulled funding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not just them, either ...


> Corporate heavyweights Restaurant Brands International Inc.’s Tim Hortons, Bank of Nova Scotia, Telus Corp., and Canadian Tire Corp. ended sponsorship deals with Hockey Canada in response to the governing body’s handling of sexual assault allegations involving a group of teenaged players and a lone woman in 2018 ...


Sounds like the corporate sponsors are taking a second look, with some of them still funding a few elements that are helping kids.  Good for them for putting their money where their mouths are while, at the same time, giving the organization a chance to improve its protections.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jul 2022)

Some of the latest (and on the self-coverage fund, a lot of companies and organizations - even governments - keep pots of money in reserve for payouts instead of carrying insurance and the like, but I have no idea how dues-paying folks would feel about membership fees going into such a thing) ....








						An Open Letter to Canadians
					

We are committed to making the changes necessary to allow us to be the organization you expect us to be.



					www.hockeycanada.ca
				











						More players step forward in Hockey Canada sex assault investigation
					

Coyotes defenceman Connor Timmins is the 14th player from Canada’s 2018 world junior team of 22 to comment publicly. Some have proclaimed innocence. Most have promised co-operation.




					www.thestar.com
				











						Hockey Canada had abuse claim reserve fund: court documents
					

An affidavit filed in an Ontario court case suggests Hockey Canada has maintained a fund to pay for uninsured liabilities, including sexual abuse claims.




					www.cp24.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Jul 2022)

Hockey Canada is well on its way, through their "elite" programs to destroying the actual strength of the sport, which is its minor associations and local volunteers who have nothing to do with elite programs.

It's making the exact same mistakes organizations like Rugby Canada have made, with predictably disastrous results.

What is it with Canadian Sports bodies being cesspits of nepotistic and bureaucratic waste. The worst part is they don't even produce actual results!


----------



## Halifax Tar (20 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's making the exact same mistakes organizations like Rugby Canada have made, with predictably disastrous results.



Rugby Canada and BC Rugby have essentially killed international men's rugby for Canada.  Its probably never coming back as an RWC nation. 

One bright light, at least on the right coast, is our youth programs are bursting with kids. At Halifax Tars, my club, we have roughly 105 JR rugby players registered and turning up for training.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 Jul 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Rugby Canada and BC Rugby have essentially killed international men's rugby for Canada.  Its probably never coming back as an RWC nation.


Yep and we aren't producing any top tier talent anymore.  It amazes me that as little as 7 or 8 years ago we had 25+ Canadians playing professional rugby in Europe and elsewhere with a number of Canadians in the top tiers of Europe.

The "elite" rugby programs of Canada have killed the club game and also the development pathways as they used to exist.



Halifax Tar said:


> One bright light, at least on the right coast, is our youth programs are bursting with kids. At Halifax Tars, my club, we have roughly 105 JR rugby players registered and turning up for training.


I noticed a lot of kids signing up for flag rugby and juniors but the programs were so poorly organized that many didn't continue.  There is a massive dropoff in playing numbers in High School.


----------



## Spencer100 (20 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yep and we aren't producing any top tier talent anymore.  It amazes me that as little as 7 or 8 years ago we had 25+ Canadians playing professional rugby in Europe and elsewhere with a number of Canadians in the top tiers of Europe.
> 
> The "elite" rugby programs of Canada have killed the club game and also the development pathways as they used to exist.
> 
> ...


As a father of two teenagers in high performance sport.   I see decreasing numbers at contact team sports.  As my son is AAA player the cost is sky sky high and commitment required by the family to be totally out of proportion to the benefits for most teams and kids (yes I am idiot for doing it)  

I trying to sign up my son for Rugby and they didn't even email back.  They are cancelling football at the high school level using COVID as an reason but teachers tell me they just don't want to coach and have the hassle and expense. 

There is some growth in Soccer and Swimming (female).   Hockey will become like polo in future.

Sport I see moving to the an almost 19th century model were only the "upper-class" play.  The time and money needed are just too much for the average the family.  Even soccer is moving to be more expensive.  

The future for mass sports is an e-sports model.  E-sports fastest growing entertainment/sport business in the world. It is larger in dollars than Hollywood movies, NFL, etc.


----------



## Halifax Tar (20 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> As a father of two teenagers in high performance sport.   I see decreasing numbers at contact team sports.  As my son is AAA player the cost is sky sky high and commitment required by the family to be totally out of proportion to the benefits for most teams and kids (yes I am idiot for doing it)
> 
> I trying to sign up my son for Rugby and they didn't even email back.  They are cancelling football at the high school level using COVID as an reason but teachers tell me they just don't want to coach and have the hassle and expense.
> 
> ...



Where are you located ? 

Send me a PM.  Good chance I get your lad in touch with the local Rugby community.

Chances are it's an honest miss.  Rugby is renowned for being completely inclusive and never turning away a prospective player.


----------



## FSTO (21 Jul 2022)

We are killing all of our participation sports with this craziness.


----------



## Weinie (21 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> As a father of two teenagers in high performance sport.   I see decreasing numbers at contact team sports.  As my son is AAA player the cost is sky sky high and commitment required by the family to be totally out of proportion to the benefits for most teams and kids (yes I am idiot for doing it)
> 
> I trying to sign up my son for Rugby and they didn't even email back.  They are cancelling football at the high school level using COVID as an reason but teachers tell me they just don't want to coach and have the hassle and expense.
> 
> ...


I have two kids that play soccer at the equivalent of AAA hockey. I echo your comment that soccer isn't the cheap sport anymore, I am spending multi thousands each year to enroll them.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 Jul 2022)

Weinie said:


> I have two kids that play soccer at the equivalent of AAA hockey. I echo your comment that soccer isn't the cheap sport anymore, I am spending multi thousands each year to enroll them.


Insurance, god bless it!


----------



## KevinB (21 Jul 2022)

Weinie said:


> I have two kids that play soccer at the equivalent of AAA hockey. I echo your comment that soccer isn't the cheap sport anymore, I am spending multi thousands each year to enroll them.


Even House/Rec in Hockey is crazy $ these days.
   $1,600 for the fall/winter season for House - versus over 3k here for travel competitive teams


----------



## Spencer100 (22 Jul 2022)

KevinB said:


> Even House/Rec in Hockey is crazy $ these days.
> $1,600 for the fall/winter season for House - versus over 3k here for travel competitive teams


At the AAA hockey level you better be ready to spend 9000.00 to 10 thousand a year all in.


----------



## KevinB (22 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> At the AAA hockey level you better be ready to spend 9000.00 to 10 thousand a year all in.


Last year our AA team played 72 games 
   Most outside a 4hr driving bubble. 
Some normal weekend games in CO.  
   I didn’t include travel costs in my fees above…


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Insurance, god bless it!


Lucky Hockey Canada seems to self-insure, right?  Sounds like it doesn't affect the fees all that much.

I grew up thinking soccer was reasonably accessible ($ wise), but am I ever learning a lesson here.  I also hear from swimming parents that it ain't cheap there, either.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Lucky Hockey Canada seems to self-insure, right?  Sounds like it doesn't affect the fees all that much.
> 
> I grew up thinking soccer was reasonably accessible ($ wise), but am I ever learning a lesson here.  I also hear from swimming parents that it ain't cheap there, either.


None of the kids activities are cheap anymore. I am having a hard time getting through to my wife that the kids cannot do “everything” anymore and choices will have to be made…


----------



## FSTO (22 Jul 2022)

KevinB said:


> Last year our AA team played 72 games
> Most outside a 4hr driving bubble.
> Some normal weekend games in CO.
> I didn’t include travel costs in my fees above…


Back in the dark ages when most farms were 320-640 acres and you needed at least 2 to 3 sons (and a couple of daughters) to run the place we never travelled more than 55 km one way to play another town. Within that radius we had 8 other towns/villages/hamlets to play hockey, baseball, Football, basketball, volleyball against. Registration for hockey was $25.00 (even in the 70's that was very affordable) and baseball was 10.00. School sports were free. Everybody, regardless of economic status could play. Those days (for a myriad of reasons) are long long gone.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Jul 2022)

Along the way several people found a way to make beaucoup dollars. Same happened to soccer, baseball etc


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> ... I am having a hard time getting through to my wife that the kids cannot do “everything” anymore and choices will have to be made…


I'm guessing you're FAR from alone on that front these days.


FSTO said:


> ... Registration for hockey was $25.00 (even in the 70's that was very affordable) and baseball was 10.00 ...


Even with inflation, sounds like hockey's costing way more than (say, comparing to '75) $130 and baseball $50 now 


OldSolduer said:


> Along the way several people found a way to make beaucoup dollars. Same happened to soccer, baseball etc


Apart from org chart bloat (which I'm happy to hear about from those who know more than I do about the orgs), wonder how much this *is* a factor?


Humphrey Bogart said:


> Insurance, god bless it!


----------



## OceanBonfire (22 Jul 2022)

Police, Hockey Canada investigate 2nd world junior team over alleged group sexual assault  | Globalnews.ca
					

The national sports organization has lost government funding and corporate sponsorship following an alleged sexual assault by the 2018 men's junior hockey team.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Police open investigations into 2003 and 2018 Canadian world junior teams
					

Two of Canada's men's world junior hockey teams are now being investigated by police following alleged group sexual assaults in 2003 and 2018.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## KevinB (22 Jul 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Police, Hockey Canada investigate 2nd world junior team over alleged group sexual assault  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The national sports organization has lost government funding and corporate sponsorship following an alleged sexual assault by the 2018 men's junior hockey team.
> ...


When it rains, it pours.


----------



## Kat Stevens (22 Jul 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Police, Hockey Canada investigate 2nd world junior team over alleged group sexual assault  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The national sports organization has lost government funding and corporate sponsorship following an alleged sexual assault by the 2018 men's junior hockey team.
> ...


How come you only show up when there's good news to share?


----------



## Quirky (22 Jul 2022)

> In its press release, Hockey Canada says its staff heard a rumour two weeks ago about “something bad at the 2003 World Juniors.”



Russia won 3-2 over Canada in the gold medal game.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2022)

KevinB said:


> When it rains, it pours.


Like in other areas with this sort of thing, I suspect people hearing about it leads to others saying, "holy crap, that happened to me, too."


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Like in other areas with this sort of thing, I suspect people hearing about it leads to others saying, "holy crap, that happened to me, too."


That is very true.

And to be fair, a 3 million dollar payout can sure help change a memory of a one night stand and a brush off, to "I want some of that...."


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> ... a 3 million dollar payout can sure help change a memory of a one night stand and a brush off, to "I want some of that...."


Never down to zero, sadly.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Jul 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> How come you only show up when there's good news to share?


And heaven forbid they follow unofficial site guidelines and have something to say with their " good news".


----------



## Kilted (22 Jul 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Police, Hockey Canada investigate 2nd world junior team over alleged group sexual assault  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The national sports organization has lost government funding and corporate sponsorship following an alleged sexual assault by the 2018 men's junior hockey team.
> ...


There were a few NHL players on that team, some of which are still playing.  I wonder if we are going to start seeing specific allegations roaring through the NHL?  If it can happen to us, it can happen to them...they just have a lot more money to settle out of court with.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Jul 2022)

KevinB said:


> When it rains, it pours.


And dogpiling. Everyone is after Hockey Canada even our “progressive feminist” PM. 

We need a sarcasm emoji….


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Jul 2022)

Circling back to Hockey Canada, interesting bit from Lisa Raitt on a political podcast today, with her take on what should happen (48:52 into the video here):  


> "You know what I want to see?  Charges.  When a couple of hockey players from the NHL serve their time behind bars because they sexually assaulted women, that's when you're going to get the change, and that's when you're going to get the tone change for these up and coming young hockey players."


Worth listening to her whole couple-of-minutes statement.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Jul 2022)

I’m watching the hearings. The MPs really don’t like Hockey Canada. The questions are fair and I think the current leadership may be able to sort shit out. 

Having said that time will tell. I do think the PM needs to stay out of it.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Jul 2022)

Hockey Canada should IMO never speak of how bad other organizations (they have not)  are and focus solely on what their org needs to do.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

Bit of the latest ...








						Sport Canada shouldn’t have kept Hockey Canada allegations from minister: opposition MPs
					

'Our institutions have been failing victims and that needs to change'




					nationalpost.com
				











						Wednesday FTB: Sheldon Kennedy calls for Hockey Canada leadership to resign
					

Investigator for the 2018 Hockey Canada sexual assault case gives an update to Canadian Heritage Standing Committee




					www.pensionplanpuppets.com
				











						Sport Minister Says Hockey Canada Needs Fundamental Shift
					

Hearings were held yesterday on Parliament Hill regarding Hockey Canada's response to sexual assault claims against members of the 2018 World Junior t...




					www.ckbw.ca
				











						Sport Canada knew of Hockey Canada sexual assault allegations in 2018
					

Members of parliament grilled members of Sport Canada for its seemingly lackadaisical approach to keeping powerful groups like Hockey Canada honest in the face of serious sexual assault allegations.




					www.chch.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

Just to keep the thread focus on the Hockey Canada developments, but not lose the zesty back-and-forth on PM & Co., moved the more non-Hockey Canada related stuff to the "Liberal Minority Government" thread for further discussion.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jul 2022)

A bit more of the latest ...








						Embattled Hockey Canada president resists calls to step down - TSN.ca
					

Scott Smith came under blistering criticism during a government hearing examining how the organization responded to an alleged sexual assault in 2018 involving players on Canada’s World Junior team.




					www.tsn.ca
				











						Hockey Canada CEO says he will not resign despite calls for overhaul to organization
					

‘I will not walk away from the demands you have rightly put before us,’ Hockey Canada’s CEO Scott Smith says, repeating variations of the statement to committee members




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				











						Calls are growing for Hockey Canada leadership to step down - My Prince George Now
					

The leadership of Hockey Canada is coming under increasing pressure to resign, after admitting millions of dollars in players’ fees were used to settle allegations […]




					www.myprincegeorgenow.com
				











						Daniel Carcillo says Hockey Canada testimony didn't acknowledge hazing, abuse in CHL
					

Former NHL player Daniel Carcillo is angry about the testimony of Canadian hockey officials at a parliamentary hearing looking into the handling of recent assault allegations.




					www.sportsnet.ca
				











						Defining Hockey Canada’s problem in plain English continues to be a problem
					

If you didn’t believe hockey had a culture problem before Wednesday, you should now




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Jul 2022)

Dog pile (whatever organization you want to insert here) call for resignations- I think if the CEO was smart he’d walk away and give a big eff you to all the dogpilers.

Hockey Canada has a lot to answer for that I will agree with. They need to clean it up. Name names.

But ffs give them a chance


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> A bit more of the latest ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Get them!


----------



## QV (29 Jul 2022)

_"Hockey Canada has paid out $7.6 million in settlements since 1989, plus an additional $1.3 million in insured settlements"_

Oh my god those perverted players hang them all!!

_"Of the $7.6 million that was paid out from the special fund, $*6.8 million was used to settle claims related to Graham James, a former coach convicted of abusing players*. Another 11 payments were made to victims who *weren’t *subject to sexual abuse."_

Oh....









						Hockey Canada execs tell MPs they paid out millions to settle 21 sex abuse claims
					

Hockey Canada has paid out $7.6 million in settlements since 1989, plus an additional $1.3 million in insured settlements




					nationalpost.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> ... Oh my god those perverted players hang them all!! ...


Not all abuse is _sexual_ abuse.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Not all abuse is _sexual_ abuse.



True.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Aug 2022)

Chair stepping down ...








						Michael Brind'Amour stepping down as chair of Hockey Canada Board of Directors
					

Michael Brind’Amour will be stepping down from his role as chair of Hockey Canada's Board of Directors.




					www.sportsnet.ca
				











						Michael Brind’Amour steps down as Hockey Canada board chair - TSN.ca
					

The chair of Hockey Canada's board of directors has resigned. Michael Brind’Amour told the board Friday evening he was stepping down immediately, Hockey Canada said Saturday in a statement.




					www.tsn.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Aug 2022)

Got a problem in Canada?  Try a retired Supreme Court justice!








						Former Supreme Court judge to oversee Hockey Canada review
					

A former judge on the Supreme Court of Canada will lead an independent review of Hockey Canada’s governance amid calls for a change of leadership of the governing body for its handling of recent allegations of sexual assault against players.




					apnews.com
				











						Former Supreme Court judge Thomas Cromwell heads Hockey Canada review
					

Former Supreme Court of Canada judge Thomas Cromwell will lead an independent review of Hockey Canada's governance amid calls for a change of leadership of the governing body for its handling of recent allegations of sexual assault against players.




					www.cp24.com
				











						Hockey Canada's governance review by former Supreme Court judge called 'delay operation' by MP
					

Former Supreme Court judge Thomas Cromwell will lead an immediate governance review into Hockey Canada, the federation announced on Thursday, but one member of Parliament criticized it for being a "delay operation."




					www.sportsnet.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Sep 2022)

Speaking of hockey players...

Tofino resort co-owned by former NHL star cancels fishing derby after 'highly inappropriate behaviour' at event​
A popular tourist resort in Tofino, B.C., co-owned by former NHL player Willie Mitchell, says it is operating under an interim manager after "highly inappropriate behaviour" came to light during its annual fishing tournament.

The details of the alleged behaviour are still unclear, but the Tofino Resort and Marina says it has cancelled the remainder of the Race for the Blue tournament, which was scheduled to run from Sept. 9 to Sept. 17.

It is not clear yet whether the behaviour involved Mitchell or other resort leadership.









						Tofino resort co-owned by former NHL star cancels fishing derby after 'highly inappropriate behaviour' at event
					

A popular tourist resort in Tofino, B.C., co-owned by former NHL player Willie Mitchell, says it is operating under an interim manager after 'highly inappropriate behaviour' came to light during its annual fishing tournament.




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2022)

Money talks when money walks - ouch!








						Tim Hortons, Scotiabank pull Hockey Canada sponsorship for men's programs in 2022-23 - Sportsnet.ca
					

Tim Hortons informed Hockey Canada this week it has pulled its sponsorship of all men's hockey programs for the 2022-23 season, the company says in a statement obtained by Sportsnet.




					www.sportsnet.ca
				











						NetNewsLedger - Scotiabank, Canadian Tire, Telus and Tim Hortons Pull Hockey Canada Funding
					

THUNDER BAY – Telus and Canadian Tire, and Scotiabank, have joined with Tim Hortons in pulling financial sponsorship from Hockey Canada. Tim Hortons states, “We’ve communicated to Hockey Canada on many occasions that the organization needs to take strong and definitive action before it can...




					www.netnewsledger.com


----------



## Halifax Tar (6 Oct 2022)




----------



## FSTO (6 Oct 2022)

This little thread from Beer and Popcorn guy kind of sums up the shit storm HC created for themselves.
I wonder if Art MacDonald was giving them advice? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578041934798635009


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2022)

Meanwhile, in front of Tim Horton's....



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1578041553230102530


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Oct 2022)

One of the local radio stations were just ripping into them for being utterly stupid and saying "Cut the funding"


----------



## QV (6 Oct 2022)

Why do I feel like the heritage that binds us together is being systematically dismantled around us? CAF... Hockey Canada...

Punish the individual perpetrators, but save the institutions.


----------



## FSTO (6 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Why do I feel like the heritage that binds us together is being systematically dismantled around us? CAF... Hockey Canada...
> 
> Punish the individual perpetrators, but save the institutions.


Yep, the BoD needs to fall on their swords.

But there also needs to be culture change within the heritage itself. Graham James was 30+ years ago, and its still happening.


----------



## GK .Dundas (6 Oct 2022)

My one takeaway from all this is this thought.
While anyone else might take the question. " How stupid can you get?" as an insult, Hockey Canada seems to view it as some sort of challenge.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Why do I feel like the heritage that binds us together is being systematically dismantled around us? CAF... Hockey Canada...
> 
> Punish the individual perpetrators, but save the institutions.


In the case of hockey, can the _game_ of hockey carry on outside of that particular institution as it's currently constituted?  

Even if hockey "binds us together" as Canadians, do we need to put up with the shittiest of shenanigans for the sake of "hey, it's a part of our national culture/heritage"?  Like someone smarter than me once said ....


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Oct 2022)

IMO the whole leadership of HC needs to change. 

And the PM Should be told "STFU"


----------



## QV (6 Oct 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> In the case of hockey, can the _game_ of hockey carry on outside of that particular institution as it's currently constituted?
> 
> Even if hockey "binds us together" as Canadians, do we need to put up with the shittiest of shenanigans for the sake of "hey, it's a part of our national culture/heritage"?  Like someone smarter than me once said ....
> View attachment 74074



So burn it all down then because a handful of people are shit pumps.


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> So burn it all down then because a handful of people are shit pumps.



It worked for the Government when they dealt with the Airborne Regiment, apparently.


----------



## Remius (6 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> It worked for the Government when they dealt with the Airborne Regiment, apparently.



From the Airborne we have CSOR
From the Red Cross we have Canada Blood Services 
From the PC we have the CPC

Burning things down to rebuild leads to varied results but isn’t unprecedented.  Sometimes it is needed, sometimes it’s not.


----------



## brihard (6 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> So burn it all down then because a handful of people are shit pumps.


Any sports organization that finds only a single sexual assault compensation fund to be insufficient probably needs to be burned down and rebuilt. That’s not an attack on our culture, it’s an organization being seen for what it is-profoundly screwed up, and enabling of some terrible behaviour.

Hockey is a Canadian institution. Hockey Canada is not.


----------



## GK .Dundas (6 Oct 2022)

Considering that the executives of  Hockey Canada still can't figure out that it is not acceptable to sexually assault women. And Hush money is not how to deal with it
 And I am sorry but the victims here are not the Board of Directors of Hockey Canada. No matter how much they bleat that they are.


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Oct 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Considering that the executives of Hockey Canada still can't figure out that it is not acceptable to sexually assault women. And Hush money is not how to deal with it



...maybe they figured "leading by example" from the highest level(s) of the country meant it was okay for them too? 🤷‍♂️


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Oct 2022)

Regardless of how big of crap pumps Hockey Canada may or may not be…in what way is it the business of the Prime Minister and Parliament to involve themselves in this?

Sure- cut off public funding, but surely there are more pressing issues for the Government?


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Why do I feel like the heritage that binds us together is being systematically dismantled around us? CAF... Hockey Canada...
> 
> Punish the individual perpetrators, but save the institutions.


Except the organization was purposely hiding criminal acts by paying victims for their silence using taxpayer money and money from parent registration fees.  This is well beyond individual issues: This is a systemic problem that requires an organizational shift.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Regardless of how big of crap pumps Hockey Canada may or may not be…in what way is it the business of the Prime Minister and Parliament to involve themselves in this?
> 
> Sure- cut off public funding, but surely there are more pressing issues for the Government?


Votes my dear boy and the appearance of doing something, while doing nothing.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Except the organization was purposely hiding criminal acts by paying victims for their silence using taxpayer money and money from parent registration fees.  This is well beyond individual issues: This is a systemic problem that requires an organizational shift.


I thought it was just the registration fees and about 85% of that went to pay out players who had suffered abuse at the hands of coaches.

Am I wrong? Happy to be corrected.


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I thought it was just the registration fees and about 85% of that went to pay out players who had suffered abuse at the hands of coaches.
> 
> Am I wrong? Happy to be corrected.


Potatos/Potatos.  It’s like saying, when you have a joint account with your wife where you both put all your money in, that your wife paid for 85% of the groceries.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Potatos/Potatos.  It’s like saying, when you have a joint account with your wife where you both put all your money in, that your wife paid for 85% of the groceries.


Sure, good point. 

I heard the Government tonight say that they have power to remove/replace the board.

Looking at Hockey Canada‘s Governance structure, I don’t see how or where they are a government of Canada entity, Crown Corporation or Special Operating Agency.

It would be about like the Government threatening to replace the board at SNC Lavalin, no?


----------



## Kat Stevens (6 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Except the organization was purposely hiding criminal acts by paying victims for their silence using taxpayer money and money from parent registration fees.  This is well beyond individual issues: This is a systemic problem that requires an organizational shift.


Yeah, I hate when people get paid off to protect their high status harassers/abusers, don't you?


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Yeah, I hate when people get paid off to protect their high status harassers/abusers, don't you?


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Yeah, I hate when people get paid off to protect their high status harassers/abusers, don't you?


Anyone who does that has serious ethical issues but it’s even more despicable when it’s done by diverting funds from the public.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Anyone who does that has serious ethical issues but it’s even more despicable when it’s done by diverting funds from the public.


Good. We all agree.


----------



## Kat Stevens (6 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Anyone who does that has serious ethical issues but it’s even more despicable when it’s done by diverting funds from the public.


True. It's waaay better when it comes from the perpetrators trust fund, or better yet, party funds.


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> True. It's waaay better when it comes from the perpetrators trust fund, or better yet, party funds.


I am pretty sure I didn’t say better.  But on the greasy scale, way greasier using funds from unsuspecting people than using your own money.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> True. It's waaay better when it comes from the perpetrators trust fund, or better yet, party funds.


What are you saying, man? Are there other, potential, high profile abusers still out there, uncovered by the media?

Is that possible in Canada in this day and age?


----------



## Kat Stevens (7 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What are you saying, man? Are there other, potential, high profile abusers still out there, uncovered by the media?
> 
> Is that possible in Canada in this day and age?


That depends, do you guys have any black helicopters in the Brandon area at the moment?


----------



## QV (7 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I thought it was just the registration fees and about 85% of that went to pay out players who had suffered abuse at the hands of coaches.
> 
> Am I wrong? Happy to be corrected.


A coach… not coaches IIRC.


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> A coach… not coaches IIRC.


There were 12 incidents of sexual misconduct and 9 incidents of sexual assault (that we know of) that were settled since 1989. It is coaches and players (with s) sometimes involving group rape.  That’s not including those that were never reported. Far from an isolated incident.


----------



## QV (7 Oct 2022)

What is “sexual misconduct” outside the CAF?


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What are you saying, man? Are there other, potential, high profile abusers still out there, uncovered by the media?
> 
> Is that possible in Canada in this day and age?


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Except the organization was purposely hiding criminal acts by paying victims for their silence using taxpayer money and money from parent registration fees.  This is well beyond individual issues: This is a systemic problem that requires an organizational shift.


Yup and they got caught and serves them right. The BoD needs to resign and new blood needs to take over.

BTW how many Non Disclosure Agreements are floating around Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver? 

How many NDAs are handed out by the NFL, NBA, MLB etc?


----------



## Quirky (7 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> There were 12 incidents of sexual misconduct and 9 incidents of sexual assault (that we know of) that were settled since 1989. It is coaches and players (with s) sometimes involving group rape.  That’s not including those that were never reported. Far from an isolated incident.


I have the solution. Trudeau should just tax hockey. Or create a hockey registry, either way it'll pretty much balance itself.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Oct 2022)

Hockey Canada's director and interim chair Andrea Skinner resigns, CEO Scott Smith under pressure
					

The director and interim chair of the board of Hockey Canada, Andrea Skinner, has resigned amid increasing backlash over the organization's handling of alleged sexual assaults, according to a release Saturday by the Hockey Canada Board of Directors.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Hockey Canada's director and interim chair Andrea Skinner resigns, CEO Scott Smith under pressure
> 
> 
> The director and interim chair of the board of Hockey Canada, Andrea Skinner, has resigned amid increasing backlash over the organization's handling of alleged sexual assaults, according to a release Saturday by the Hockey Canada Board of Directors.
> ...



Trudeau... right now


----------



## OceanBonfire (9 Oct 2022)

> “The logic of their entrenchment is beyond reason … it’s just mind-blowing,” said Paloma Raggo, a professor at Carleton University’s School of Public Policy and Administration who teaches philanthropy and non-profit leadership.
> 
> “Are they willingly trying to sink this organization?”











						‘Never seen anything like this’: experts baffled by Hockey Canada’s scandal response
					

The organization has been under intense scrutiny since the spring, facing mounting public outcry and calls for change.




					ottawa.citynews.ca


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Oct 2022)

And now the NHL has an issue. Ian Cole of the TB Lightning has been accused


----------



## Halifax Tar (10 Oct 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> ‘Never seen anything like this’: experts baffled by Hockey Canada’s scandal response
> 
> 
> The organization has been under intense scrutiny since the spring, facing mounting public outcry and calls for change.
> ...



Hockey is THE golden cow in this county. 

And there are some who see it as the very fabric of this country and will sacrifice anyone and anything to preserve its image.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Hockey is THE golden cow in this county.
> 
> And there are some who see it as the very fabric of this country and will sacrifice anyone and anything to preserve its image.



I have no idea what you're talking about... wait... what's this?


----------



## MJP (11 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about... wait... what's this?
> 
> View attachment 74161


While funny it is photoshopped.  The original photo is slightly less crude.









						Is This a Real Boston Bruins Fan Sign?
					

A photograph that purportedly shows two Boston Bruins fans holding up a vulgar sign is a hoax.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## KevinB (11 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Trudeau... right now


Ironic…


----------



## KevinB (11 Oct 2022)

Meanwhile down here


----------



## FSTO (11 Oct 2022)

Breaking!

The entire Hockey Canada Board has resigned.

Though they may not have made the slush fund decisions, they are the ones now in charge and will be taking the sword to the back of the neck.

So now what?


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Breaking!
> 
> The entire Hockey Canada Board has resigned.
> 
> ...


That's when grass roots hockey types take the game back.

Hockey Canada should be given the chance now to clean it up. First be above board and transparent. Secondly root out the predators in the organization, if there are any. DO NOT make it a witch hunt. 

Other sports organizations need to look inwardly as well before pointing fingers. I was going to postulate that given the optics of this maybe the IIHF would "disinvite" World Championship male teams from competition, but I do not think this will happen.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Breaking!
> 
> The entire Hockey Canada Board has resigned.
> 
> ...



Yes, the 'now what' will be the hard part.

Culture eats strategy for breakfast, and that hockey culture is a hungry beast


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Oct 2022)

This from the Hockey Canada info-machine ...

_"The Hockey Canada Board of Directors has announced important changes to Hockey Canada’s leadership team. Effective immediately, it announced the departure of chief executive officer Scott Smith. The entire Board has also agreed to step down to make room for a new slate of directors.

An interim management committee will be put in place, which will guide the organization until no later than a newly constituted Board appoints a new CEO to lead the organization.

Recognizing the urgent need for new leadership and perspectives, the entire Board of Directors announced it will step aside and pursuant to Hockey Canada’s By-Laws, the Board will ask its Members to select a new slate of directors by no later than the forthcoming virtual election scheduled for December 17, 2022. The Board will not seek re-election and will fulfil its fiduciary duties until such time as a new Board is elected.

Hockey Canada is seeking board candidates to shape the future of the organization. We encourage qualified individuals to respond to the call for nominations issued by the independent Nominating Committee last week.

The interim Management Committee will focus on day-to-day operations and ensure progress on the implementation of Hockey Canada’s Action Plan, including reviewing and working with the Board and Members towards the full implementation of the independent governance review recommendations from The Honourable Thomas Cromwell, C.C., former Supreme Court Justice as well as working to facilitate the effective transition to a new CEO and Board.

Hockey Canada will continue to provide public updates on these important changes as well as the continued work towards implementing its ongoing Action Plan."_


----------



## quadrapiper (12 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Yes, the 'now what' will be the hard part.
> 
> Culture eats strategy for breakfast, and that hockey culture is a hungry beast


Feels like what they need is what they won't get/select: a board that doesn't, as such, _care _about hockey, but will rather ruthlessly clean house on enablers, under-carpet sweepers, and the predatory themselves regardless of reputation, on-ice or behind-bench performance, etc.


----------



## KevinB (12 Oct 2022)

quadrapiper said:


> Feels like what they need is what they won't get/select: a board that doesn't, as such, _care _about hockey, but will rather ruthlessly clean house on enablers, under-carpet sweepers, and the predatory themselves regardless of reputation, on-ice or behind-bench performance, etc.


I’d argue that someone who really cares about Hockey and it’s future would clean house.  Those who buried stuff where looking  at short term (and I’d argue personal gain) issues.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> I’d argue that someone who really cares about Hockey and it’s future would clean house.  Those who buried stuff where looking  at short term (and I’d argue personal gain) issues.



Actually, you probably need a team who doesn't care about hockey at all, but who are objective and are experts at building good governance frameworks for not-for-profit societies.

The less objective you are, the less useful you will be to this gigantic cess pit IMHO.


----------



## KevinB (12 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Actually, you probably need a team who doesn't care about hockey at all, but who are objective and are experts at building good governance frameworks for not-for-profit societies.
> 
> The less objective you are, the less useful you will be to this gigantic cess pit IMHO.


I don’t see it as a cesspool.  I see youth hockey and the future of Hockey endangered by careless and self serving people. 

The problem with folks who don’t care about Hockey is that they won’t be able to make changes across the organization.   It’s a National entity that touches almost all communities.  
   You can have all the rules in the world, and a solid Board - but if you aren’t getting both passionate and ethical folks running the local program your SOL.   To do that you need folks on the Board (at least some) and at Provincial and lower levels that understand the game and follow the rules.


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Oct 2022)

IMO the whole hockey "culture" could use a face lift. We see NHL - indeed across all major sports - people who are law breakers but are kept on cause they sell tickets to games. Yes Michael Vick I am looking at you.

That needs to change and I am sure it has or will be.

Secondly - don't depend on coaches to teach ethics and morals to your kids. That is YOUR job as a parent.
Coaches are hired because they know the game and can get the best out of the players they have.

Charles Barkly  said he was paid to wreak havoc on the basketball court, not to be a role model to your kids. Parents - you are the role model, not Connor McDavid or Sid the Kid. They are paid to win games.

Adding: the grass roots of the best fastest team sport on earth are super important. THEY need to be nurtured as well, not just the elites.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> *I don’t see it as a cesspool*.  I see youth hockey and the future of Hockey endangered by careless and self serving people.
> 
> The problem with folks who don’t care about Hockey is that they won’t be able to make changes across the organization.   It’s a National entity that touches almost all communities.
> You can have all the rules in the world, and a solid Board - but if you aren’t getting both passionate and ethical folks running the local program your SOL.   To do that you need folks on the Board (at least some) and at Provincial and lower levels that understand the game and follow the rules.



This guy does:

Hockey Canada sexual assault scandal: Another crack in the great Canadian facade​For the third summer in a row, Canadians are being confronted with an existential national-identity crisis. Maybe it’s time we learned how to listen to each other and get along.

People argued that hockey culture can be misogynistic, exclusionary, abusive and a cesspool for toxic masculinity. Cherry’s firing was an opportunity to highlight that. 

The revelations we’ve gotten in the past two months about the Hockey Canada scandal are further evidence that’s true.









						Hockey Canada sexual assault scandal: Another crack in the great Canadian facade
					

For the third summer in a row, Canadians are being confronted with an existential national-identity crisis. Maybe it’s time we learned how to listen to each other and get along.




					newcanadianmedia.ca


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Oct 2022)

Given that logic our whole society is a cesspool.


----------



## KevinB (12 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> This guy does:
> 
> Hockey Canada sexual assault scandal: Another crack in the great Canadian facade​For the third summer in a row, Canadians are being confronted with an existential national-identity crisis. Maybe it’s time we learned how to listen to each other and get along.
> 
> ...


He makes my point though. 
  Issues occur in locker rooms. 
    Issues occur at functions. 

Where are the coaches?  I can guarantee you that locker room chat wasn’t being monitored, or was being willfully ignored.  

USA Hockey has a two coaches in the locker room policy as well as a no phones/camera in the locker room   

They have a lot more issues than just changing their board.  They appear to need a ground up rebuild.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> He makes my point though.
> Issues occur in locker rooms.
> Issues occur at functions.
> 
> ...



Speaking of coaches, I have no idea if they're 'better' at this kind of thing than Hockey Canada, but it's interesting to see that Swimming Canada dealt with a coach issue:



			https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/aquatics/matt-bell-swimming-coach-suspended-for-life-1.4445918
		







						Investigation – Swimming Canada
					






					www.swimming.ca


----------



## lenaitch (12 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Actually, you probably need a team who doesn't care about hockey at all, but who are objective and are experts at building good governance frameworks for not-for-profit societies.
> 
> The less objective you are, the less useful you will be to this gigantic cess pit IMHO.


I think you do need leaders who are passionate about the entity they are leading., most particularly in a not-for-profit environment.  those are the folks who have to champion the organization, attract sponsors, government support, etc.  Simply having 'governance nerds' might result in a very well run but stagnant organization.  Besides, there is the whole matter of elections and how its constitution is written.

  My former bargaining unit went through a crisis of governance.  It went through a Board housecleaning and hired consultants to help them analyzing and improving the governance; I think it was a law firm that had a specialty in the area.


----------



## SupersonicMax (12 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I think you do need leaders who are passionate about the entity they are leading., most particularly in a not-for-profit environment.  those are the folks who have to champion the organization, attract sponsors, government support, etc.  Simply having 'governance nerds' might result in a very well run but stagnant organization.  Besides, there is the whole matter of elections and how its constitution is written.
> 
> My former bargaining unit went through a crisis of governance.  It went through a Board housecleaning and hired consultants to help them analyzing and improving the governance; I think it was a law firm that had a specialty in the area.


Before an organisation can move forward, it needs to be well run.  Put the governance expert in to clean up and get Hockey Canada running well, then bring the passionate folks in gradually.


----------



## lenaitch (12 Oct 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Before an organisation can move forward, it needs to be well run.  Put the governance expert in to clean up and get Hockey Canada running well, then bring the passionate folks in gradually.


If  you can.  As far as I understand it, the Board is elected by the their provincial organizations.  Hopefully, the membership, executive or delegates of these organizations (whoever does the voting) sees the need for renewal.

I assume HC is incorporated under the federal Corporations Act.  A lot depends on the legislation (which I'm not completely familiar with) and their Letters of Incorporation/Letters Patent.  Not everything can be made better by external intervention, particularly from a government, no matter hwo well intentioned.


----------



## KevinB (13 Oct 2022)

I coached spring hockey last year.  Which was 08-10 birth years.  
   I had 8 boys 9 girl skaters and a female goalie.  It was the most cohesive team I’ve ever had. One parental issue due to the mixed locker room that wanted to separate the kids. 
   I shut them down and told the mother her son could change in the bathroom if she wanted him separate. 
    I had a simple no bras and no underwear policy - so a shirt and pants where the lowest level of undress.   Given most jock systems for both man and woman are now a spandex pant there was no reason for anything to be an issue.  

Respect and understanding start at home, but coaches at young levels can ensure that gets pushed and love of the game means ensuring sportsmanship, respect and ethical behavior is deeply rooted.


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> I coached spring hockey last year.  Which was 08-10 birth years.
> I had 8 boys 9 girl skaters and a female goalie.  It was the most cohesive team I’ve ever had. One parental issue due to the mixed locker room that wanted to separate the kids.
> I shut them down and told the mother her son could change in the bathroom if she wanted him separate.
> I had a simple no bras and no underwear policy - so a shirt and pants where the lowest level of undress.   Given most jock systems for both man and woman are now a spandex pant there was no reason for anything to be an issue.
> ...


Good job - and some kids need that guidance because they don't get it at home.


----------



## KevinB (13 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Good job - and some kids need that guidance because they don't get it at home.


Yeah unfortunately some coaches don’t always give good guidance.  

Last season a player was ejected from the League, they had already a reputation as an issue - they crossed check one of my female players from behind and then hit her as she went to get up.   She punched him back and then my son decked him when he went to hit her with his stick.   We got two majors and they got a major misconduct (ejection) and the League suspended the player in question. 

The ejected player has a pretty poor home life from all accounts, but his coach did nothing to stop the aggression from being used poorly, as this wasn’t an isolated act.  I have had sit downs outside of practice/game times with players and their families to discuss both on and off ice conduct.  I have zero qualms with either benching a player or kicking them off my team (and going to the League and USA Hockey for a season or longer ban) if the player isn’t following our code of conduct.  

  Hockey isn’t a cheap sport, and it’s really unfortunate for multiple reasons when players  are kicked out - because I think it is a fantastic team sport that CAN really be used to teach controlled aggression, and sportsmanship, respect etc.  

The failure (and it seems repeated failure) in Hockey Canada seems to be a failure of parents, coaches and the players.  I’m not sure how to fix competitive sports in our society without fixing larger societal issues, which means I place a lot of blame on the coaches and parents for not nipping issues in the bud that allowed for those attitudes to become prevalent in players.   

In my years playing of Hockey in Canada in the 70’s and 80’s I cannot recall a coach that would have put up with that crap - and have no idea how it got this bad.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> I coached spring hockey last year.  Which was 08-10 birth years.
> I had 8 boys 9 girl skaters and a female goalie.  It was the most cohesive team I’ve ever had. One parental issue due to the mixed locker room that wanted to separate the kids.
> I shut them down and told the mother her son could change in the bathroom if she wanted him separate.
> I had a simple no bras and no underwear policy - so a shirt and pants where the lowest level of undress.   Given most jock systems for both man and woman are now a spandex pant there was no reason for anything to be an issue.
> ...



Good for you!

Question: Did you get any formal training as a coach? 

I know a guy who was/is a swimming coach. He had been on an Olympic swimming path then changed course and is now running a business. He told me about the differences in approach between sports regarding coach training.

Apparently, swimming coaches are the only ones who have to be trained before getting a coaching job. Hockey, soccer, basketball, lacrosse (my sport) etc all usually go with 'parents of the kids playing'. 

He had some interesting observations about the differences in player injury rates, success rates, incidences of sexual assault etc as a consequence of these differences in coach selection and training. Untrained coaches do a worse job, no surprise.

Again, I have no direct knowledge apart from my own experiences playing Lacrosse where the coaches were parents, so found that interesting...


----------



## KevinB (13 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Good for you!
> 
> Question: Did you get any formal training as a coach?
> 
> ...


Yes.   
  USA Hockey has the coach CEP level system.   You cannot be on the bench without at least a L1 CEP.   Every year one needs to do continuing education (even if one doesn’t advance in levels). 
Also coaches need to conduct SafeSport Training, have a criminal record check and conduct age specific module training.  






						Coaches
					






					www.usahockey.com


----------



## KevinB (13 Oct 2022)

Our long term athlete development model is actually based on Hockey Canada’s program.  
   I’m actually shocked Hockey Canada doesn’t have a coaching system mandated like we do down here (including a clear and defined code of conduct.)


----------



## SeaKingTacco (13 Oct 2022)

I am soccer coaching for the 4th year (assistant). The Criminal record check is mandatory. There is supposed to be training, but it is kind of “unobtainium”, so it really is not enforced.

My soccer association is kind of falling apart. It gets little to no support from my municipality so the better players  migrate to associations with better playing fields (which is everyone else in my region). That robs the association of both potential volunteers, coaches and fund raising potential, so the whole thing becomes a negative feedback loop.

There is also a troubling trend to focus most of the resources on Elite players, which is going to (already is) backfiring in that most players quit after age 12-13, if they don’t make the elite team…


----------



## KevinB (13 Oct 2022)

COVID hurt a lot of team sports. 
   Some organizations where slow to adopt DLN courses - but just as bad some have been very slow to transition back to in person courses.   There is no substitute for in person training, as while Zoom meetings are better than death by power point, you don’t get the same sort of interaction and knowledge that you do in person (and in case of hockey with on ice and classroom portions).


----------



## MJP (13 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Our long term athlete development model is actually based on Hockey Canada’s program.
> I’m actually shocked Hockey Canada doesn’t have a coaching system mandated like we do down here (including a clear and defined code of conduct.)


Hockey Canada has a coaching program and most provinces either follow it or have their own.  You can't be behind the bench in most places without the required crses. I would say everywhere but private leagues may have their own rules.  

Crses required are low for community leagues and lower age brackets but climb as you get up there.  

Here is Alberta's matrix for example


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Oct 2022)

I coached hockey for 1/2 season 11/12 year olds first year checking. This is where you see the finesse players get knocked around a little and drop from the game. 

I quit because it wasn't the kids who were giving me issues.

 Parents need to shoulder a large part of the responsibility for poor behavior by Jonny or Janey. Coaches can try to correct it but given what happened in Quebec a few years ago I think coaches are a little gun shy to discipline players.

OK in Quebec about five years ago a veteran coach "bag skated" the team for a poor performance the game prior. Parents complained, the hockey league suspended him pending investigation etc. I am not sure what the result was.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> I coached spring hockey last year.  Which was 08-10 birth years.
> I had 8 boys 9 girl skaters and a female goalie.  It was the most cohesive team I’ve ever had. One parental issue due to the mixed locker room that wanted to separate the kids.
> I shut them down and told the mother her son could change in the bathroom if she wanted him separate.
> I had a simple no bras and no underwear policy - so a shirt and pants where the lowest level of undress.   Given most jock systems for both man and woman are now a spandex pant there was no reason for anything to be an issue.
> ...


You could not do that in Canada under HC rules.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> Yeah unfortunately some coaches don’t always give good guidance.
> 
> Last season a player was ejected from the League, they had already a reputation as an issue - they crossed check one of my female players from behind and then hit her as she went to get up.   She punched him back and then my son decked him when he went to hit her with his stick.   We got two majors and they got a major misconduct (ejection) and the League suspended the player in question.
> 
> ...


Guys like YOU should be getting on the Hockey Canada board.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Oct 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Guys like YOU should be getting on the Hockey Canada board.


I would love too.

First rule every kid under 14 plays with a cheap wood stick under $50 price. 
Really grow the first Shift program, more partners than CT.  
All associations will ban paid coaches under the AAA division. Including parent "gifts" 
Coaches can not have side "training" businesses or development sidelines. 
You play as our sex at birth (just put that to bed early)  Girls can play on boys till they feel they can't in REP hockey.
Checking moved to U12......its really dumb where its at.  U14 some boys are man size and some are still small etc. 
I would partner with very large companies and NHL etc. to have a huge outreach into the New Canadian communities across the country.  Huge focus here. 
Break up the GTHL.
Develop a scholarship program and partnering program with U and Collages for CHL, Junior B, C players for post secondary ed.  The US scholarship programs are almost cut off for Canadians now.  
Hire a better online training company and system!  (I bet there was some funny business here....)

Oh and most importantly tell Trudeau to pound salt.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (21 Oct 2022)

.


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Oct 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I would love too.
> 
> First rule every kid under 14 plays with a cheap wood stick under $50 price.
> Really grow the first Shift program, more partners than CT.
> ...


Perhaps I am a bit slow but at what age do you propose to include full on body checks? You are correct - some kids at age 14 are man size or close while others are still on the smallish side. I have witnessed a 15 year old absolutely hammer a small 14 year old when there was no need for it - and well after the kid had passed the puck  - other than the goof wanted to hit someone. IMO he should have been tossed from the game.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Oct 2022)

I think he means if you bring it in sooner the smaller (usually faster) kids learn how to avoid them.

Not learning at 14 by getting their bell rung.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I think he means if you bring it in sooner the smaller (usually faster) kids learn how to avoid them.
> 
> Not learning at 14 by getting their bell rung.


Yes.  Checking at 12 or so. The boys are closer in size and slower too.  Plus at 12 they are more "rubbery" lol.  

I think the injury would be less. Plus learning at the start.  I just think it would much better.

My son's U14 AAA team last year....first year of checking. At one point four kids out. One for the year. Better to see this year U15 just one broken bone so far.  It was super sloppy last year at this time.  Even the best kid in league (Ontario even) broke an arm last year.  

It's just at the 14 and 15 year old point the kids are growing some much faster than others.  An side....they started to use the shower last year.  (Don't  get me started on the Covid BS and showers) my son in the car says to me....Dad player X is a man he has hair on his balls.  I tell that because of the difference in that age group.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Oct 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I would love too.
> 
> First rule every kid under 14 plays with a cheap wood stick under $50 price.
> Really grow the first Shift program, more partners than CT.
> ...


There you go making sense, giving any of these ideas the kiss of death.


----------



## KevinB (22 Oct 2022)

USA Hockey limits Body Checking to Boys (Coed) 14U and above, BUT Body Contract through angling etc is allowed at all ages.  

Body Contact was reintroduced as a way to acknowledge the game is physical and a way to break players gradually into checking.   


A legal check requires a play for the puck with the checkers stick on the ice.   Hip checks are legal in very small amount of situations due to this - as well as no hitting from behind.  The other aspect of this is larger kids generally won’t get a chance to plow over smaller kids, as they can poke the puck before contact is made, or the smaller guy will move the puck in a manner not to make a check legal.  

It is a far cry from the game that I played years ago, and much safer because of it.  

 Girls Hockey is generally rougher and IMHO more dangerous due to the lack of allowance for checking, there are a lot more elbowing and illegal checks based on my observations.


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> USA Hockey limits Body Checking to Boys (Coed) 14U and above, BUT Body Contract through angling etc is allowed at all ages.
> 
> Body Contact was reintroduced as a way to acknowledge the game is physical and a way to break players gradually into checking.
> 
> ...


I've never understood why they don't just allow checking in girls hockey?


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## KevinB (22 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I've never understood why they don't just allow checking in girls hockey?


You and me both, but speaking to some parents who played Spring with me - who returned their players to Girls Only Hockey in the Fall had significant concerns over the contact in 14U.
    Spring being an off mix of birth years the Middle years (11-13) has players who will have played contact in 14U - and others who waviest paying in 12U.  There was more hitting in 12U and Spring Middle than 14U in my observations...


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## The Bread Guy (26 Oct 2022)

Broadening the picture for some context, this about a month after the government's freeze on Hockey Canada ...








						Federal government freezes Gymnastics Canada funding after surge of abuse cases
					

The federal government has officially suspended all funding towards Gymnastics Canada due to allegations of ab...




					www.ckom.com
				



... and a reminder today from some gymnasts








						Gymnasts repeat calls to sport minister for probe into toxic culture of abuse - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Liberal MP and former sport minister Kirsty Duncan is pushing for a full public inquiry that would probe the problem of abuse across all sport.




					globalnews.ca
				



#NotJustHockey


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## Spencer100 (26 Oct 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Broadening the picture for some context, this about a month after the government's freeze on Hockey Canada ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish people would see the bigger picture.  This is a political campaign. Its targeting sports at the moment.  All part a larger movement to undermine the institutions and basis of society we live in.  But I will be called a Tin Foil hat wearer.  And yes I tell myself remember Hanlon Razor.  

But the goal here is.....oh forget it....I give up


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## GR66 (26 Oct 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I wish people would see the bigger picture.  This is a political campaign. Its targeting sports at the moment.  All part a larger movement to undermine the institutions and basis of society we live in.  But I will be called a Tin Foil hat wearer.  And yes I tell myself remember Hanlon Razor.
> 
> But the goal here is.....oh forget it....I give up


Let me finish it for you...

But the goal here is to stop adults in a position of power from sexually assaulting the children under their care.


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## Spencer100 (26 Oct 2022)

GR66 said:


> Let me finish it for you...
> 
> But the goal here is to stop adults in a position of power from sexually assaulting the children under their care.


I so wish that to the be the case.....but alas its is not...


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## SeaKingTacco (27 Oct 2022)

GR66 said:


> Let me finish it for you...
> 
> But the goal here is to stop adults in a position of power from sexually assaulting the children under their care.


Hmmm…laudable.

Presumably, the Liberals will leave no stone unturned in their quest to stop adults in power from sexually assaulting children under their care.


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## Halifax Tar (27 Oct 2022)

GR66 said:


> Let me finish it for you...
> 
> But the goal here is to stop adults in a position of power from sexually assaulting the children under their care.



Bingo. 



Spencer100 said:


> I so wish that to the be the case.....but alas its is not...



What's the end state in your theory ? 

Pardon me if I fail to have sympathy for institutions that willfully harbor sexual predators.


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## OldSolduer (27 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Pardon me if I fail to have sympathy for institutions that willfully harbor sexual predators.


I get where you're coming from. In a perfect world all the predators would be incarcerated or alternately "taken care of".

However this is not the case. I think the days of hiding these creeps is over though.


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## KevinB (27 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think with your current government it’s a twofold goal…


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## daftandbarmy (10 Nov 2022)

Whoa...


'It hurts my heart': Former classmate of Mitchell Miller says NHL prospect bullied him for years​Hockey Diversity Alliance releases statement Wednesday on bullying victim’s behalf​
Isaiah Meyer-Crothers, who was bullied by NHL prospect Mitchell Miller in middle school, says he hasn't seen any proof that Miller has changed his ways.

In a statement released Wednesday by the Hockey Diversity Alliance, Meyer-Crothers, who is Black and has developmental disabilities, said Miller reached out by text to apologize and to say he was doing community work to help young people.

"I told him, `That's all cool but where is the proof though?' He didn't give me any [proof]," Meyer-Crothers said.

"All the lies I have been told from him for so many years I don't believe what Mitchell told me."



			https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/boston-bruin-mitchell-miller-hda-statement-1.6646793


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## Remius (10 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Whoa...
> 
> 
> 'It hurts my heart': Former classmate of Mitchell Miller says NHL prospect bullied him for years​Hockey Diversity Alliance releases statement Wednesday on bullying victim’s behalf​
> ...


That was hard to read.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> That was hard to read.



Oh hell yeah....


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## OldSolduer (10 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> That was hard to read.


Before we get too heartfelt this is one side of the story. There is a counter story that this guy is not the poor soul that has been portrayed in the media. I haven’t seen it however this happened in 2016? Can one not change? 

What pisses me off is there is no forgiveness, he’s not allowed to defend himself. No -off with his head. 

Yet Michael Vick was allowed back in the NFL. NFL gangsters are reported on every year yet it seems they are forgiven. 

The double standard really piss me off


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## Remius (11 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Before we get too heartfelt this is one side of the story. There is a counter story that this guy is not the poor soul that has been portrayed in the media. I haven’t seen it however this happened in 2016? Can one not change?
> 
> What pisses me off is there is no forgiveness, he’s not allowed to defend himself. No -off with his head.
> 
> ...


I don’t know.  Why should this guy forgive when it’s clear the only reason this guy wants forgiveness (and I’m not even sure he is actually seeking that) is so he can get signed on a professional hockey team.   It seems like it was a condition  that was imposed on him and he that he made some sort half assed effort to reach out that only made things worse it would seem.  

The victim gets to decide if he wants to forgive.  And if he doesn’t that’s his decision.


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## MJP (11 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Before we get too heartfelt this is one side of the story. There is a counter story that this guy is not the poor soul that has been portrayed in the media. I haven’t seen it however this happened in 2016? Can one not change?
> 
> What pisses me off is there is no forgiveness, he’s not allowed to defend himself. No -off with his head.
> 
> ...


There can generally always be a redemption arc but one has to actually do the work to get that redemption.  It just shouldn't come because some time has passed. 

By all accounts he tried through his agent to say he was working with a bunch of organizations but wasn't.  The only"work" he has done was court ordered.  He also never truly apologized to his victim and only reached out to him and other organizations when there was a chance that a NHL team could sign him


The two statements below from Hockey Diversity tell an unflattering tale. One is their statement when the signing was announced and the other is a statement from the victim. 




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590081071089324032

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590364034213511169


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## The Bread Guy (13 Dec 2022)

One of the could-be's for the HC board





						Cassie Campbell-Pascall among nominees for Hockey Canada’s new board of directors
					






					www.sportsnet.ca
				








						Why Campbell-Pascall wants to be ‘part of the solution’ with Hockey Canada | Jeff Marek Show
					






					www.sportsnet.ca
				











						Nominated new Hockey Canada board members include Cassie Campbell-Pascall
					

Former Canadian Olympic sprinter and retired Ontario judge Hugh L. Fraser nominated as board chair.




					torontosun.com


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