# "Chinese-Canadians Reluctant to Join Military, Study Finds"



## dimsum (21 Jul 2011)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chinese-canadians-reluctant-to-join-military-study-finds/article2096714/

From the G&M about a week ago.  

*Warning:  Bit of a rant, and all views are mine alone.*

I'm Chinese-Canadian, so I've had this debate before (and sometimes still do) with my family and their friends; the military isn't viewed the same way "back home."  I've also noticed that people assume that as a visible minority, there would be more discrimination in something as hierarchical as the military and are surprised when I tell them that my ethnicity has never come up in a negative light.  

While I think it'd be nice if the CF does recruit more Chinese-Canadians, it will be very tough for two reasons, both related to location:  

1.   Close-knit family.  The article mentions this at the end, after the argument that the CF isn't seen as a stepping stone to higher education, but I think this is a more important reason.  Moving away from the family is something that is generally tolerated for the first part of adulthood (for school, to get a job, etc.)  After a while, however, the pressure is on (and sometimes intense) to move back to where other family members live (preferably in the same house) in order to take care of the older generation.  The individualist "don't worry what other people think, it's your life" belief doesn't work in Chinese culture.  While I'm sure that happens to some extent with every family, I have never personally heard of Chinese parents "kicking" their children out of the house to see the world; in contrast, my parents (and my aunts/uncles) would like nothing more than for my generation (who have all moved to various countries for work) to live with them again in the same house.

2.  Chinese-Canadians (especially the ones who have moved in the past 30-odd years) live generally in big cities (I'll let you figure those cities out.)  This ties into the first point, since Chinese-Canadians would be more wary of moving to other areas without a significant Chinese (or otherwise) population.  For example:  I was once offered a posting to Halifax (a great city), but when I told my parents this and saying how great it was, the questions were as though I was going to move to Nunavut.  Now imagine trying to tell a mother from Hong Kong or mainland China that her son/daughter will be posted in places like Cold Lake or Gander for a few years at a time.

I believe that if the CF increases publicity on the opportunities for higher education (ROTP, MMTP, etc.) as well as what that could translate to in the civilian world, it would help the situation.  However, that would be a bit counter-intuitive if the goal is to keep people for longer than their obligatory service.  Bases are where they are, so that's really beyond debate.  However, I would like to know if countries like Australia, where their bases are generally near their cities, have the same problem.  

Again, this is just stuff I've noticed from...let's call them "discussions" with family over my career in the CF.  Unfortunately it's more of a rant, since I have no answers or even ideas to remedy this, short of making all bases next to the big cities similar to what Australia did, coupled with not posting people.  Ever.

*rant off*

Edited to add:  The PRes units with us in Vancouver on Canada Day weekend had a significant number of Chinese-Canadians, and I'll assume the same in Toronto.  So, it's not that the CF as a whole isn't attracting them ("us?"  Now I'm getting my pronouns mixed.)


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## john10 (21 Jul 2011)

That's interesting, thanks for sharing your experience.

Like the report said, an influx might come once the third generation arrives and its culture is more like that of other native-borns.

My observation is that there are a LOT of Vietnamese in the reserves in Montréal. I don't know if there's a statistical basis to this however. If there is though, I would guess it reflects the different cultural attitudes and experiences of these immigrants and their children toward the military in their native country. Most Vietnamese immigrants came from the south of Vietnam, supported its army, and would bring that attitude to Canada. Most Chinese immigrants, by contrast, are leaving China because they want a better life here and have a less good view of the Chinese army.


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## vhaust (21 Jul 2011)

Most of them (educated ones or business oriented ones) are too busy making money 
in industry. Peer pressure; he has this so I have to have that kinda thing.
Family oriented also implies a sense of responsibility to be able to afford a 
standard of living which the family desires. One important factor is the opportunity
for a better career/social status as one progresses. Unless the guy is born with
a soldier's mentally, desires hardship, indifferent to luxury, etc., the opportunity
cost of being in the military versus pursuing further education or advancing 
in the industry is too great to be ignored.


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## vhaust (21 Jul 2011)

I personally know several Chinese-Canadians who graduated in the same field of studies 
as me are in the process of making 6 figures while I am in the CF recruiting process,  
waiting for the phone to ring for the next step, and to make a PTe salary.  ;D


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## benny88 (21 Jul 2011)

> The 2011 report by Ipsos Reid Public Affairs said it’s going to be difficult to recruit more young Chinese-Canadians in part because their parents don’t see the profession of soldiering as sufficiently upwardly mobile.



     I disagree heartily. For instance, everybody out of my university program pursuing flying careers civvy-side are, if they've been lucky enough to get a job at all, working 6 days a week for about half of what I make, and are flying PPL students around in light singles. I get to fly on Hercs and Griffons every week, make a fair salary, be an active participant in SAR trg and ops and work under and with people who do the real thing and have been doing it for years. I'm absorbing SO much and feel very fortunate. I also feel pretty upwardly mobile compared to my peers slogging it out as instructors or ramp-hands. 
    Not that we want to recruit unabashed ladder-climbers, but are there changes we can make to our recruiting that will help assuage these concerns? Or will a certain portion of the population always assume every person in the military got lost on the way to university/grad school?


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## OldSolduer (21 Jul 2011)

Might it also be a generational view of the military being somewhat negative? The Chinese Army isn't exactly the friendliest lot...even to their own people.


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## Rahul (21 Jul 2011)

This phenomenon isn't limited to the Chinese-Canadian community. I am of Indian descent and the same implies to us. While my mother is quite okay with my application to the CF, my father is vehemently opposed to it. Most people so not see the CF as a viable career, with the  focus mainly on Money-family-money-family.... The peer pressure aspect is rather intense and everyone wants to brag about what their kids are doing and how much money they are making. 

I think [and this is my -personal- opinion] that it is -usually- the second generation of an immigrant family that sees Canada as "home" and not the first one. The initial culture shock, lack of a socio-cultural  net and the whole way of doing business in general does cause problems with integration for the first generation immigrants. The subsequent generations are more adapted to these "foreign" surroundings and hence seek more diverse opportunities like the CF.


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## dimsum (21 Jul 2011)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I disagree heartily. For instance, everybody out of my university program pursuing flying careers civvy-side are, if they've been lucky enough to get a job at all, working 6 days a week for about half of what I make, and are flying PPL students around in light singles. I get to fly on Hercs and Griffons every week, make a fair salary, be an active participant in SAR trg and ops and work under and with people who do the real thing and have been doing it for years. I'm absorbing SO much and feel very fortunate. I also feel pretty upwardly mobile compared to my peers slogging it out as instructors or ramp-hands.
> Not that we want to recruit unabashed ladder-climbers, but are there changes we can make to our recruiting that will help assuage these concerns? Or will a certain portion of the population always assume every person in the military got lost on the way to university/grad school?



Compared to the aviation industry, CF aviators do have it pretty good (the _possibly_ better money is offset by the years of working those crappy jobs.)  As an aside:  Benny, how are your coursemates doing in the job market?  Mine have finally climbed to the point of getting into Air Canada mainline, Cathay and Air Transat (perhaps Westjet as well, but I'm not sure.)  So, it's been about 6-7 years after grad for most of them to get to that point, and even then most of them are making F/O salary (roughly $40-50K?) when they had to slog it through years of $20-30K in such bustling metropolises as Wollaston Lake and Sioux Lookout.


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## benny88 (22 Jul 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Compared to the aviation industry, CF aviators do have it pretty good (the _possibly_ better money is offset by the years of working those crappy jobs.)  As an aside:  Benny, how are your coursemates doing in the job market?  Mine have finally climbed to the point of getting into Air Canada mainline, Cathay and Air Transat (perhaps Westjet as well, but I'm not sure.)  So, it's been about 6-7 years after grad for most of them to get to that point, and even then most of them are making F/O salary (roughly $40-50K?) when they had to slog it through years of $20-30K in such bustling metropolises as Wollaston Lake and Sioux Lookout.



       I know it's a relatively small sliver of the CF, but it's a good example of a trade that can lead to fair money and a "reputable" (you know better if you've met many pilots   ) career in the eyes of some parents. Please note that is NOT why I'm in the CF and that is NOT a slight against any other trade in the CF.
      The only 3 or 4 who have gotten flying jobs are all instructing at the flight school we just left. One is working groundside with WestJet (wants to go ticket agent to CEO in 20 years haha) and a couple are out chasing float ratings or what-not. Not one person has done anything that makes me feel like I don't have the best job in the world. :camo: Nice to hear those guys and girls are getting into the mainstream though, 6-7 years is not outrageous, but it's a bit of a haul. I was led to believe it was a bit easier/quicker if you were willing to go out east and fly Cathay, etc?


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## Retired AF Guy (22 Jul 2011)

Rahul said:
			
		

> I think [and this is my -personal- opinion] that it is -usually- the second generation of an immigrant family that sees Canada as "home" and not the first one. The initial culture shock, lack of a socio-cultural  net and the whole way of doing business in general does cause problems with integration for the first generation immigrants. The subsequent generations are more adapted to these "foreign" surroundings and hence seek more diverse opportunities like the CF.



I think you are right. I've seen studies have made the same conclusion that you have. They also point out that many immigrants come from countries where the military (and sometimes the police) are part of a oppressive regime and not something you joined voluntarily. Other society's looked on the military with disdain and believed that only losers and the uneducated joined the military. A view that I might add, was quite common here in Canada and United States not so long ago.


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## ModlrMike (22 Jul 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Other society's looked on the military with disdain and believed that only losers and the uneducated joined the military. A view that I might add, was quite common here in Canada and United States not so long ago.




Unfortunately it's still a common misconception.


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## Edward Campbell (22 Jul 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I think you are right. I've seen studies have made the same conclusion that you have. They also point out that many immigrants come from countries where the military (and sometimes the police) are part of a oppressive regime and not something you joined voluntarily. Other society's looked on the military with disdain and believed that only losers and the uneducated joined the military. A view that I might add, was quite common here in Canada and United States not so long ago.





Quite true; there is an old saying, in another language, to the effect that "You don't use good iron to make horseshoe nails and you don't send good men to be soldiers." That attitude still resonates in many places.


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## OldSolduer (22 Jul 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Unfortunately it's still a common misconception.



I agree, however we should strike when the iron is hot, so to speak. A PR campaign of some sort....?


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## benny88 (22 Jul 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I agree, however we should strike when the iron is hot, so to speak. A PR campaign of some sort....?



     I liked the "Fight fear, distress, etc" campaigns that were pretty recent. As much as they fog the issue a little bit (not that domestic and humanitarian support aren't important and even vital, but that campaign didn't cover ANY sort of combat or weapons usage at all) I think it was a good campaign for parents, friends, and family of potential members who might think we're a bunch of uneducated thugs.

     Who is responsible for CF advertising? Is it a bunch of PAFFO's in NDHQ or do we contract it out or something? Just curious.

     I've found our PR campaigns to be pretty general. Not that there's anything wrong with that, advertising shouldn't soak up a lot of time or money, but I think they should do a better job of highlighting programs like ROTP and NCM-SEP. A lot of people I've come across seem very surprised the military paid for my school, and it's something that might address the concerns of a lot of parents, etc.


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## paffomaybe (22 Jul 2011)

http://www.ccmms.ca/

Always been there, always will be - despite stupid articles like these.


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## dimsum (22 Jul 2011)

sprl said:
			
		

> http://www.ccmms.ca/
> 
> Always been there, always will be - despite stupid articles like these.



I met some of them while working the Canada Day event a few weeks ago.  Great stories.


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