# Expedited Reserve Enrollment (ERE) process [Merged]



## MilEME09 (8 Sep 2016)

Did a search and couldn't find the thread I thought existed, but in an effort to fix the recruitment issue it looks like the CF is exploring the idea of conditional enrollment. The way it was explained to me was if they get the checks in the box but say for example are waiting on their enhanced reliability clearance and such, we get them in the door, kitted and parading while the system sorts it all out. I'm told they are hoping to cut wait times down to less the two months by doing this from paperwork to unit. Great in theory


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## CBH99 (8 Sep 2016)

That would make a lot of sense, and definitely help fix the recruiting system.

I don't know what the situation is like these days, but back when I was in, we had guys leave for their deployment before some of their clearances came back.

As a reservist, isn't it just a clean criminal record back/nothing pending before the courts?  Should be pretty quick and easy to get.


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2016)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> As a reservist, isn't it just a clean criminal record back/nothing pending before the courts?  Should be pretty quick and easy to get.



There is no difference between the PRes and Reg F recruiting criteria.


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## PuckChaser (8 Sep 2016)

ERC is a criminal background check and reference call. I don't want people parading around me who haven't passed it, and it's outsourced now, shortening the timelines. We already do this with trades that require TS or Secret, they do what training they can while paperwork catches up. In no way should we lower our security standards to below ERC.

What else do you want to lower? Medical? Buddy has a huge heart condition he doesn't disclose, and drops dead on a parade night prior to being deemed med unfit. Now we're paying survivor pensions and SDB for someone who should have been screened out.

You don't fix the recruiting system by lowering an already low bar, you fix the beaurucratic mess that slows the process down.


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## Remius (8 Sep 2016)

Conditional enrollments are not a new thing.  They've been done before.  It's risk management. 

ERCs normally don't take up a lot of time.  If someone has a clean ERC but happened to teach in Korea for a year after university, they might need a PRE-SEC.  That can take a considerable amount of time sometimes years.  So why not enroll while we wait for the PRE SEC to clear.  ERC is clean, no other indicators or what not, so hire. 

Same with medical.  PAs generally know who is clean or not but they still need the MO to sign off.  Why not flag those guys, enroll while they wait for the MO to sign off on a broken leg they had when they were 6 years old.

It isn't about a blanket conditional enrollments for everyone but there are many cases where it could and should happen.

It isn't hard and we don't need to make excuses.  Just do it.


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## PuckChaser (8 Sep 2016)

There's a reason people need a pre-sec, circumventing that is not a valid COA. Medicals should be approved by higher medical authority, it's how long it takes is the problem. We're already recruiting people who are unfit physically and with no mental health screening, making it easier just kicks the problem to units, who can't afford to spend the time on the admin burden.


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## DAA (8 Sep 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> Conditional enrollments are not a new thing.  They've been done before.  It's risk management.
> ERCs normally don't take up a lot of time.  If someone has a clean ERC but happened to teach in Korea for a year after university, they might need a PRE-SEC.  That can take a considerable amount of time sometimes years.  So why not enroll while we wait for the PRE SEC to clear.  ERC is clean, no other indicators or what not, so hire.
> Same with medical.  PAs generally know who is clean or not but they still need the MO to sign off.  Why not flag those guys, enroll while they wait for the MO to sign off on a broken leg they had when they were 6 years old.
> It isn't about a blanket conditional enrollments for everyone but there are many cases where it could and should happen.
> It isn't hard and we don't need to make excuses.  Just do it.



The CAF doesn't do ERC's as part of the enrolment application process, only the RS portion.  The initlal Pre-Sec "query" is only required where certain indicators are present (dual citizenship, if you lived, worked, studied or travelled outside of Canada in the last 10 years for a total of at least 180 days or if you have a child, parent, step-parent, spouse, in-laws, brother or sister (half & step) living outside of Canada).  Therefore it must be verified in advance that those indicators will not be a barrier in obtaining and being granted a GoC Security Clearance and this part takes 1-2 weeks tops before a decision is made as to whether a "full" Pre-Sec will be required.  The RS allows for required access of PA and PB materials, whilst the ERC allows for required access to PC materials.  The RS is a mandated requirement prior to starting any type of employment with the GoC, be it with the CAF or Public Service.  This portion will never be shortened or waived.  It can be sped up, like anything else but the question is, how much of your limited resources are you willing to dedicate to this task at the sacrifice of other processing areas?

Main Recruiting Detachments are manned by Snr and Jr Med Techs (Sgt's and Cpl's) who administer and process the initial medical screening.  Approvals and the granting of the Med Cat is only done by the RMO, which isn't much different than a Reg Force Med Cat for serving members.

At the end of the day, it's all about available resources, both personnel and money.  Risk management does come into play but over the years many many many layers of processing have been added and you can see the results for yourself.

The system has become a beauracracy of checks and balances, compounded by more checks and balances because someone somewhere thought it to be a good idea.  Are we enrolling "better" applicants today as opposed to 20 years ago because of it?


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## dapaterson (8 Sep 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> Are we enrolling "better" applicants today as opposed to 20 years ago because of it?



Harrumph.  Clearly not, since all of us old farts (who are perfect) enrolled more than twenty years ago.


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## RCPalmer (8 Sep 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's a reason people need a pre-sec, circumventing that is not a valid COA. Medicals should be approved by higher medical authority, it's how long it takes is the problem. We're already recruiting people who are unfit physically and with no mental health screening, making it easier just kicks the problem to units, who can't afford to spend the time on the admin burden.



I think that the admin burden associated with the current recruiting bureaucracy is far greater than the admin burden created by a few irregular enrollments.

Keep in mind that PRes members are FORCE tested prior to enrollment. It may not be the best test, but it is the standard.  

As noted above, pre-sec is not required unless the applicant reports foreign implications. Such a self-disclosure would be status quo in any conditional enrollment scenario.

I think that a self disclosure form would address the the criminal and credit RS issues in 95% of cases.  In the extremely rare case where the member lied, we would find out in their first month or two in the CAF, and they could be released during BMQ.  

As for medicals, why would we centralize the decision making authority in an RMO who has never seen the applicant? If the criteria are clearly articulated, why can't that be left in the hands of the PA/Med Tech conducting the exam, or better yet, the applicant's family doctor?

All of a sudden we have moved from a 6 month+ processing cycle to true one day processing if we scheduled a CFAT, interview and PT test on the same day.


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## dapaterson (8 Sep 2016)

Except we are subject to US restrictions on technology which require a clearance to do things like handle the service weapon. A bit if a showstopper,  that.


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## RCPalmer (8 Sep 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Except we are subject to US restrictions on technology which require a clearance to do things like handle the service weapon. A bit if a showstopper,  that.



A significant portion of the CF is walking around without a valid security clearance at any given moment.  We would still award RS. It would just be awarded post enrollment.  We pretty much need a PRes member enrolled a month before BMQ to conduct in clearance, issue kit and course load anyway. Alternatively, we could structure our BMQs with that imperative in mind.  However, if we can find a way to donate C7s to the ANA, I am sure we can find a way to put a C7 into the hands of a Canadian citizen with a conditional enrollment.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Sep 2016)

Prior to computers enrolling was far faster, amazing how short things become when you have to do everything by hand. I believe we did very similar to what the OP is suggesting, you were initially assessed based on your current heath and your history, if no flags you were enrolled shortly thereafter. As I vaguely recall, I did my initial interview and paperwork in late November and started the basic training in late January when they started their yearly recruit course. (I should add that I had disclosed that my family and I had traveled the Soviet Union 7 years before, so it's likely my file was flagged)


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## DAA (8 Sep 2016)

RCPalmer said:
			
		

> I think that the admin burden associated with the current recruiting bureaucracy is far greater than the admin burden created by a few irregular enrollments.
> Keep in mind that PRes members are FORCE tested prior to enrollment. It may not be the best test, but it is the standard.
> As noted above, pre-sec is not required unless the applicant reports foreign implications. Such a self-disclosure would be status quo in any conditional enrollment scenario.
> I think that a self disclosure form would address the the criminal and credit RS issues in 95% of cases.  In the extremely rare case where the member lied, we would find out in their first month or two in the CAF, and they could be released during BMQ.
> ...



5.e. Release Items are few and far between and when reapplying, requires the signature of the Comd CFRG, after jumping through many hoops.

CFRG doesn't "own" the Medical portion of the process, they merely administer it.  It's no different than Regular Force Medicals.  The Cpl/MCpl/Sgt/PA/MO at your local Health Services Centres isn't the approving authority for your final Med Cat, they only recommend it.  Final decisions will always go higher for approval and there's no way around this at the present time.

Your %'s noted in the item "highlighted" above in yellow aren't entirely accurate.  Keep in mind, applicants to the CAF are applying for a "JOB" but at the sametime are VERY intimidated by their surroundings, who wouldn't be?  They tend to forget some of the minute details when completing their forms.  It all eventually comes out in the wash though.

The PRes across all elements (Army, ARAF, NAVRES) have their own internal recruiting processes and people.  CAF Recruiting (CFRG) enhances the Reserve recruiting efforts but is not obligated nor funded to "directly" support Res Force recruiting objectives in any way.


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## DAA (8 Sep 2016)

RCPalmer said:
			
		

> We pretty much need a PRes member enrolled a month before BMQ to conduct in clearance, issue kit and course load anyway. Alternatively, we could structure our BMQs with that imperative in mind.



So talk to your Brigade/Unit Recruiters, that's their job!  How hard is it for them to call their supporting Recruiting Detachment and ask for an application(s) to be processed prior to a certain date?  I'm sure they have telephones and a reasonably good working relationship with the local CFRC.


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## dapaterson (8 Sep 2016)

If CFRCs ate not mandated to sp the Reserves,  then all those full time Res positions and associated pay & O&M need to be taken away.


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## CBH99 (8 Sep 2016)

How did all of this stuff happen before we had fax machines, e-mail, scanners, cellular phones, etc?    


*Tangent alert.  I remember when I was course staff a few years ago on a BMQ.  I had a recruit show up in her CADPAT uniform, and running shoes.  A few of us went over to speak to her shortly after she showed up, and she said that was how ASU told her to dress because they didn't have her size of boots.  Sigh.

Same recruit, the next day.  We are going through a kit review with everybody, and just making sure we have the course all squared away before we really begin training.  *She pulls out a purple sleeping bag*.  Sigh.  I went over with another staff member, and sure enough - it is what ASU issued her, because they didn't have any more green sleeping bags.  

We all just chuckled at her situation, poor kid.  She wasn't dumb, she knew how ridiculous her situation was.  I drove her back to ASU one afternoon to get some of her kit sorted out, and sure enough - the person working behind the counter confirmed her story.  No boots, but here's some running shoes.  No green sleeping bags, so we gave her a purple one.    

She was a great kid, great recruit, and ended up graduating near the top of the class I think.  She ended up going CANSOFCOM after like 2yrs of being in, and actually ended up being pretty badass.  


^Not sure what the above has to do with anything.  Just reading this thread made me think of her for some reason.


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## DAA (8 Sep 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If CFRCs ate not mandated to sp the Reserves,  then all those full time Res positions and associated pay & O&M need to be taken away.



The current full-time Class B "Reserve" positions allocated to CFRG are there to support Regular Force Recruiting only.  I think the 117 or so positions that you are referring to, are controlled by the Army, assigned to Brigade Level and are not part of nor associated with the Recruiting system so to speak.  They are dedicated to Res F recruiting efforts only.


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## RCPalmer (8 Sep 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> 5.e. Release Items are few and far between and when reapplying, requires the signature of the Comd CFRG, after jumping through many hoops.



That is completely self imposed, and can be addressed internally. When I worked in recruiting, 5.e. was within the CFRC CO's authority, and it was one form.  It is simply a matter of delegating the correct release item to the proper authority (CBG Comd/Unit CO) or making use of one of the release items already available to them.



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> CFRG doesn't "own" the Medical portion of the process, they merely administer it.  It's no different than Regular Force Medicals.  The Cpl/MCpl/Sgt/PA/MO at your local Health Services Centres isn't the approving authority for your final Med Cat, they only recommend it.  Final decisions will always go higher for approval and there's no way around this at the present time.



I get that, but that is no reason to accept an inefficient and ineffective process.



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> Your %'s noted in the item "highlighted" above in yellow aren't entirely accurate.  Keep in mind, applicants to the CAF are applying for a "JOB" but at the sametime are VERY intimidated by their surroundings, who wouldn't be?  They tend to forget some of the minute details when completing their forms.  It all eventually comes out in the wash though.



We will have to agree to disagree on that one.  I was a Prod O and MCC for three years, conducted hundreds of interviews and thousands of files went across my desk.  In my experience, criminal issues were rarely a surprise.  Credit issues were more complicated, but the issues found in the reports were rarely showstoppers.  An applicant might forget about their overdue fees from the library, but they aren't going to forget that they are under bankruptcy proceedings, and if they do we are completely in our rights to treat that as a breach of trust, and process as an irregular enrollment.



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> The PRes across all elements (Army, ARAF, NAVRES) have their own internal recruiting processes and people.  CAF Recruiting (CFRG) enhances the Reserve recruiting efforts but is not obligated nor funded to "directly" support Res Force recruiting objectives in any way.



Incorrect.  PRes attractions is the responsibility of the elements.  The entire CAF applicant processing capability is either organic to, or operates under the control of CFRG. If PRes applicant processing was not a CFRG responsibility, it would be resourced and manned completely differently.



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> So talk to your Brigade/Unit Recruiters, that's their job!  How hard is it for them to call their supporting Recruiting Detachment and ask for an application(s) to be processed prior to a certain date?  I'm sure they have telephones and a reasonably good working relationship with the local CFRC.



I would be happy to take that to the PMs.  I have observed that process on both sides of the fence for more than a decade, and it has proven extremely problematic.


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> The PRes across all elements (Army, ARAF, NAVRES) have their own internal recruiting processes and people.  CAF Recruiting (CFRG) enhances the Reserve recruiting efforts but is not obligated nor funded to "directly" support Res Force recruiting objectives in any way.



Having been involved with Recruiting in a PRes unit, between 2005 and 2013 I can say that the CFRG is responsible for all CF recruiting.  The Reserve units may have Recruiters, but they are not solely responsible for Recruiting, the CFRC's are.  The Reserve unit Recruiters act as the "First Line" in the unit recruiting process, conducting interviews and selection of prospects which they then hand over to the CFRC with an "Acceptance Letter" (may be a formal letter or a msg to CFRC) for processing, along with the CFRC Reg F prospects.  The CFRC will conduct all the same Interviews, Medicals, PT Testing (Reserve prospects only), etc. as they would for a Reg F prospect.  The Reserve unit Recruiters only liaise with the CFRC to keep appraised of the prospect's progress.  When the CFRC has completed the process, and the prospect is found acceptable for enrollment, their documentation is sent to the Reserve Recruiter to conduct the Enrollment Ceremony.  The Reserve Recruiter will return documentation to the CFRC so that they can close their files there, and have the CC in the unit OR open up the Pers File for the individual.

Reserve Recruiters take the same Recruiter Crse as the Reg F at CFRG and will have to do OJT at a CFRC to attain the full Recruiter Qual.  Class B's working at CFRC's handle all CF prospects files, Reg and Res.


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## MilEME09 (9 Sep 2016)

Honestly as long as conditional enrollments are hopefully done correctly there will hopefully not be a problem, and if their is a red flag, given how the PRes is, more then likely the person can be removed before they even reach BMQ.


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## PuckChaser (9 Sep 2016)

Hope is not a valid COA.


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## RCPalmer (9 Sep 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Hope is not a valid COA.



At the moment, status quo isn't a valid COA either. The failures of the recruiting system are impacting the ability of the reserve force to fullfill their assigned mandate, and grow in accordance with government direction.  I am all for fixing the underlying processes, but I recognize that they are outside of the control of the Army, or in some cases, the CAF.  There is also a significant element of institutional inertia to be overcome here, and we simply can't wait anymore if we are going to follow the lawful orders we have received from the CDS and Comd CA.  Conditional enrollments have been used quite successfully in the past, and provide the force the flexibility to get members going on training while the bureaucracy grinds along.

In the conditional enrollment scenario the PRes member still receives the same amount of screening as a RegF member (more if you keep in mind that the PRes conducts pre-enrollment fitness testing), within their first couple of months in the CAF.  All we are talking about here is assuming some risk during basic training, which I have noted in my posts above, is minimal.


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## George Wallace (9 Sep 2016)

What I witnessed, now that all recruiting is through the CFRG, is that the REG F quota system and criteria are applied to the Reserves.  Unlike the Reg F, that is recruiting for full-time work in various Trades, a Reserve unit is only recruiting, in the majority of cases, single Trade Cbt Arms types.  Non-Cbt Arms units face their own distinctive problems that are quite different, as well.  All Reserve units, however, can not survive by only recruiting to fill their allotted positions, as the Reg F does.  They must, due to high turn over and attrition for numerous reasons, recruit a minimum of four or five for each position in the dire hopes of keeping those positions filled.  Succession planning in the Reserves is difficult when a great number of their members may only remain in the unit or as Reservists for two to five years.  Being a much smaller organization than the Regular Force, one that rarely transfers members to other units, that becomes quite problematic.


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## McG (9 Sep 2016)

I have heard that the PRes establishment is greater than the authorized strength.  That means that by design the PRes cannot fill all its positions and some units will do without ... but that is not a recruiting problem.  It is a topic of another thread.


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## RCPalmer (9 Sep 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> I have heard that the PRes establishment is greater than the authorized strength.  That means that by design the PRes cannot fill all its positions and some units will do without ... but that is not a recruiting problem.  It is a topic of another thread.



The establishments are definitely another topic, and as you say there are some structural issues that prevent the PRes from ever approaching its full ARE strength.  However, I still think both recruiting and training system improvements will be required to achieve even the modest PRes growth necessary to ensure the long term viability of the organization.


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## DAA (9 Sep 2016)

RCPalmer said:
			
		

> That is completely self imposed, and can be addressed internally. When I worked in recruiting, 5.e. was within the CFRC CO's authority, and it was one form.  It is simply a matter of delegating the correct release item to the proper authority (CBG Comd/Unit CO) or making use of one of the release items already available to them.
> 
> I get that, but that is no reason to accept an inefficient and ineffective process.
> 
> ...



At the end of the day and believe it or not, CFRG is neither base line funded nor mandated to provide support to Reserve Force Recruiting or Processing efforts but yet and for various reasons, CFRG does currently manage the processing component on their behalf.  No doubt, the "Good Idea Fairies" thought this part up.

It's all about "resource management" and higher has pulled back several components of the processing function with the thought that it would improve things.  It appears that someone somewhere feels that the US Recruiting Model (Recruiting Stations and Processing Stations) is a suitable option for use here in Canada, so it appears that's what we are slowly moving towards.

Reserve Force recruiting efforts have been problematic at best and in some instances, Units aren't able to meet their intake requirements due to slow processing, lack of qualified/suitable applicants or poor communications/working relationships with the processing Det.

I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly of it all.  Hopefully the CA chooses some sort of path to follow inorder to meet their Res F intake requirements because if not, the problem is just going to continue "as is" and may eventually compound itself to such an extent, that some Res F Units may not have enough personnel to even operate as a "Unit".


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## McG (9 Sep 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> It appears that someone somewhere feels that the US Recruiting Model (Recruiting Stations and Processing Stations) is a suitable option for use here in Canada, so it appears that's what we are slowly moving towards.


Does a higher population density and larger military make that a more logical model for the US than perhaps it might be in Canada?


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## DAA (9 Sep 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> Does a higher population density and larger military make that a more logical model for the US than perhaps it might be in Canada?



I believe the concept is being adopted based on the limited resources allocated to current recruiting efforts with the idea that we can sustain our intake numbers but with less personnel dedicated to the task, while being more efficient.  The reduction in the number of Recruiting Centres/Detachments and dedicated recruiting personnel all across Canada a few years back precipitated such a move and made such a concept look more appealing.

The US Model uses a wide "Attraction" network (ie; get them interested) and once they are ready to sign, everything was passed from the Recruiting Station, to the Regional/Area Processing Station who managed the process after that.  The problem being, is that here in Canada, we just don't have the personnel resources to effectively incorporate such a system for it to work effectively.  So now we are sort of doing this "piece-meal" style by reallocating responsibilities internally and it's just not working.

When you have less than 2% of your current personnel resources dedicated to maintaining the effective strength of your organization at an operational level, something is bound to give.  Keep in mind, that CAF Marketing does an awesome job at "attracting" people towards our organization and getting them to apply.  But we lose a good chunk of those applicants because they become disenchanted/disinterested with the job prospect as their processing drags out.


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## mariomike (9 Sep 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> It appears that someone somewhere feels that the US Recruiting Model (Recruiting Stations and Processing Stations) is a suitable option for use here in Canada, so it appears that's what we are slowly moving towards.



I saw this ( 2008 ) film about the US Recruiting Model,
The Recruiter 
"Uncle Sam really wants you! A compelling exploration of army recruitment in the United States told through the story of Louisiana Sergeant, First Class Clay Usie, one of the most successful recruiters in the history of the U.S. Army." 
http://www.propellerfilms.com/recruiter/

One of every four high school graduates cannot pass the basic military entrance exam. Couple that with high obesity and rise of criminal records means there is a much lower chance of getting military recruits. Despite these obstacles recruitment numbers are hitting their marks. The economic crisis is giving way to more willing recruits and many of them have one of the key measures to join, a high school diploma. Still the ineligibility rates some military leaders say are, “a matter of national security.”

The hardships that come with being in the army begin to arise at basic training. One girl has a massive panic attack, while some of the boys try to fake being gay in order to be discharged under “don’t ask, don’t tell.” 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Recruiter_(2008_film)

Film Details Frustrations Of Army Recruiter
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92971946

Military Recruiting: Are We Passing The Test?
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/02/132592329/high-school-graduates-shut-out-of-military

Sgt. Usie took a personal interest in applicants. Going to their sporting events, etc. on his own time.

He was a Recruiter for ten years.


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## DAA (9 Sep 2016)

Yup!  The Recruiters in the US are actively involved with the applicants on both the social and physical preparation side of the house prior to them actually signing on the dotted line but there's good reason for them to do this.  Individually assigned quota's.  Recruiting positions in the US are assigned based on career progression requirements and/or volunteering for a Recruiting Billet.  Assignment timelines vary (usually 3 years but it can be reduced) but each Recruiter is given a "quota" that must be met annually and their quota is only counted in their favour, if their applicant is successful all the way through to becoming occupation qualified.  Hence, they need to become actively involved and motivate the person to be successful in the chosen military career.

Here in Canada, it's a regular Posting (3-4 years) which now comes with additional benefits at annual Merit Boards (ie; counted the same as an Operational Tour).  Personnel are screened prior to be slotted into one of these positions.  Reg F Recruiters are effectively posted "out of trade" and now doing a form of staff duties, so there is the draw back of losing or falling behind on occupational knowledge in some instances.  Add on the Class B personnel who augment the Recruiting system and you have a wide variety of people, from all occupations, experiences and walks of life and you have an interesting mix, which is what is needed.  We don't have the luxury of independant Army, Air Force, Navy and Reserve Force Recruiting Detachments like our neighbours to the South.

20-30 years ago, a posting to a Recruiting job was sought after.  Hell, who wouldn't want to wear their uniform out in public, mix with Canada's youth, the local community, fly the flag and promote the CAF, that stuff is instilled into us.  Over time, society changed and also the CAF itself.  Recruiting became an easy dumping ground for CM's and a place to dispose of those who were less than spectacular at their jobs or considered admin burdens.  These days, things are slowly beginning to improve but like anything else in the CAF, you just need to wait for the Pendulum to swing in the proper direction.

The biggest draw back to a job like this.........is that you don't necessarily get the satisfaction of accomplishing anything.  Sure you do your job but once it's complete, the applicant is off to Basic and you will most likely never see them again.


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## ueo (10 Sep 2016)

Sorry, I haven't figured out how to quote a previous post. But recruiting was never, at least during the 90's, a dumping ground for the CMs. I resent the implication made, on a personal and professional level. Not just for myself but all others who were just slagged as well as all the recruits we brought in despite the tall forehead meddling and change predicated by a senior officer's visit to the States resultant in our system of today. (1 or more years to process!). :rage:


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## TCM621 (11 Sep 2016)

ueo said:
			
		

> Sorry, I haven't figured out how to quote a previous post. But recruiting was never, at least during the 90's, a dumping ground for the CMs. I resent the implication made, on a personal and professional level. Not just for myself but all others who were just slagged as well as all the recruits we brought in despite the tall forehead meddling and change predicated by a senior officer's visit to the States resultant in our system of today. (1 or more years to process!). :rage:


It's not always a dumping ground just like the schools aren't always dumping grounds. But the fact remains that it is somewhere to put someone you can't get rid of but is ineffective in their regular job for one reason or another. 

Also the 90s was a long, long time ago. At least in my experience, recruiting worked back then so maybe it was due in part to higher quality people. 

Things may have changed since I was involved in reserve recruiting but it was basically a disaster on every level. We had no ability to speed up the process, it was 100% under the control of the CFRG Det . Allocation was done based on unit size ie. more recruits for bigger units. This meant bigger units kept getting bigger and small units couldn't grow. The reserves were seen as a second task behind reg force recruitment so reserve files seemed to be pushed back if short staffed or busy. And this was in addition to all the other issues that affect everyone.


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## dapaterson (11 Sep 2016)

You're confounding different issues.  Quotas are set by the Army, not by CFRG.


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## DAA (12 Sep 2016)

ueo said:
			
		

> Sorry, I haven't figured out how to quote a previous post. But recruiting was never, at least during the 90's, a dumping ground for the CMs. I resent the implication made, on a personal and professional level. Not just for myself but all others who were just slagged as well as all the recruits we brought in despite the tall forehead meddling and change predicated by a senior officer's visit to the States resultant in our system of today. (1 or more years to process!). :rage:



http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/christie-blatchford-canadian-militarys-woefully-inept-recruiting-system-blasted-in-stinging-report

"While the advisory board said the military is still attracting fine candidates, the length of time it takes to sign up “will not stand the CF in good stead with the Millennial generation.” It also says that the recruiting group is “all too often … an afterthought at best and at worst a dumping ground for lesser performers…”

I'm not slagging anyone, merely stating the obvious which has already been reported on by the Defence Science Advisory Board within their 23-page report submitted to DND in 2013.  I don't think there was much if anything in the report that was refuted either.

Nevertheless, Recruiting still manages to maintain reasonable recruiting numbers for the Regular Force but even today, the Reserve Force still struggles with it's manning levels and that is even after the injection of a substantial number of "dedicated" Army Recruiters.


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## rnkelly (12 Sep 2016)

From working at a Recruiting Centre for the last year I haven't seen any bias between RegF and PRes files.  If anything I see the PRes files go faster due to the hard work of the PRes recruiters and the abbreviated interview.  At our location the problem is a lack of PRes applicants which could be for a variety of reasons but primarily the PRes units' ability to attract applicants.  It also doesn't help that at any moment during the application process a PRes applicant can be re-oriented to RegF which is completely reasonable.

This is not to say that I think the system is ideal but the same factors delay many files, ie; limited medical personnel, pre-secures, admin errors etc.  Unfortunately these delays are even more glaring when it's for an applicant looking for a part-time position that may or may not be long term.

 :2c: from a "lesser performer"


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## TCM621 (12 Sep 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You're confounding different issues.  Quotas are set by the Army, not by CFRG.


Yes. Sorry, I should have made that clear.  But it is another issue with Pres recruiting.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Sep 2016)

I think part of what hurts recruiting in the reserves now is that previously a recruiter from a reserve unit could go to a local high school,  college,  job fair,  public event and spend an allocated hour telling the audience how great the reserve unit,  all the things the regiment could do for them and why they should join That regiment.   

That changed and now,  unless it changed again,  reserve recruiters need to take that hour and talk about the reserves AND the reg force.  On top of that they have to talk about opportunities in the navy army and airforce.  Pretty hard to do with time constraints and easy to do all the ground work and have the person join another element.  The CF as a whole still gets a member but the reserve unit doesn't.


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## fruitflavor (4 Dec 2016)

saw this on reddit
https://www.facebook.com/notes/canadian-army/news-release-36-canadian-brigade-group-commences-evaluation-of-primary-reserve-e/1157018384390138?qid=6359609950443658761&mf_story_key=5587047613818341922


> December 2, 2016 – Halifax, N.S. – National Defence / 5th Canadian Division
> On December 1st 36 Canadian Brigade Group (36 CBG) commenced an evaluation of the Primary Reserve Expedited Enrollment Trial (PREET) for selected Army Reserve units in Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Western Newfoundland.
> The PREET evaluation will run from December 1st 2016 to March 31st 2017 and will utilize a modified process that aims to have applicants to the Army Reserve enrolled after two scheduled visits to the unit they seek to join. Once an applicant becomes a recruit, the remaining processing steps will take place concurrent with the initial recruit training.
> Improving the recruiting process is a major priority for the Canadian Army (CA). In the coming years the CA will be undertaking a series of initiatives aimed at further strengthening the Primary Reserve, including the PREET.



more in the link


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## Brasidas (4 Dec 2016)

Heard the same thing yesterday, with CO saying that we would follow in the new year.

2 to 4 weeks from initial commitment to enroll to signing a Cl A paysheet.


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## RocketRichard (4 Dec 2016)

This will be a go for most brigades 


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## MilEME09 (5 Dec 2016)

RocketRichard said:
			
		

> This will be a go all most brigades
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



fixed for you, as of April 1st, this is the new system


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## RedcapCrusader (5 Dec 2016)

Does this mean they're going to allow PRes NCMs administer fitness tests again or do we still have to sit around and wait for PSP to send a representative?  :


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## MilEME09 (5 Dec 2016)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> Does this mean they're going to allow PRes NCMs administer fitness tests again or do we still have to sit around and wait for PSP to send a representative?  :



We will be doing the fitness tests for the member on a wednesday night


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## daftandbarmy (5 Dec 2016)

Why don't we just contract out our hiring to any number of private sector businesses that find thousands of people for big employers?

One example: http://gthiringsolutions.ca/


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## PanaEng (6 Dec 2016)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Why don't we just contract out our hiring to any number of private sector businesses that find thousands of people for big employers?
> 
> One example: http://gthiringsolutions.ca/


That may just make sense; as an alternate delivery enterprise - maybe even composed, partly, of former members.

Another aspect that makes the Eng units in the reserves suffer in terms of recruiting and retention is the suffocating control that the school holds on trade level courses. For us and a few others where the courses are 10 weeks or over, in the summer, it would make sense to do some of the basic POs in-house. That way, the school just needs to concentrate on the more technical or high risk POs (where standards are critical) and at the same time we would be able to reduce the trg delta between the Reg and Res force.
This way, the young recruit can start to learn trade specific things while waiting for the other required courses and keeping him/her interested and feeling valued. 

We have already devised some interleaving in the scheduling of SQ and DP1 which shortens the time required for the recruit to be employable in some capacity. Before, it would take a year and a half or more to get a recruit through BMQ, SQ and DP1 as most times the courses did not line up and the recruit had to wait a full year for the next DP1 serial.
Progress is being made but we need to go beyond this.


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## MilEME09 (6 Dec 2016)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> We have already devised some interleaving in the scheduling of SQ and DP1 which shortens the time required for the recruit to be employable in some capacity. Before, it would take a year and a half or more to get a recruit through BMQ, SQ and DP1 as most times the courses did not line up and the recruit had to wait a full year for the next DP1 serial.
> Progress is being made but we need to go beyond this.



I was actually talking to the incoming RCEME RSM a few weeks about this very thing, that if we streamlined the course calendar we could cut a year or more from the training time for techs. Main problem being DP1 courses have been starting after DP2. flip it around and thats one less summer a tech needs.


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## a_majoor (6 Dec 2016)

A bit of a tangent, but streamlining procedures and increasing productivity can buy huge gains for the CF, and potentially for the Canadian government as a whole. Look at the potential savings the American DoD could reap through this sort of thinking:

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/12/pentagon-could-easily-save-125-billion.html



> *Pentagon could easily save $125 billion over 5 years in bureaucratic waste and inefficiency*
> 
> The Pentagon has buried an internal study that exposed $125 billion in administrative waste in its business operations amid fears Congress would use the findings as an excuse to slash the defense budget, according to interviews and confidential memos obtained by The Washington Post.
> 
> ...


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## unmaxdemax (17 Jun 2017)

Hello all. For your information, i was supposed to go for medical 1 and 2. When i showed up for my medical, i only did medical 1. If i understood correctly, It seems there was a change in policy and reserves don't have to go for medical 2 if they filled in their medical questionnaire.


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## medicineman (17 Jun 2017)

It's something new and (debatedly) exciting - the questionnaire will be screened at a higher level and it will be determined if a formal physical is required and if any additional information is required...this literally just started in the last 1-2 months.

MM


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## Ayrsayle (17 Jun 2017)

My understanding of the medical 2 process is that it can either be completed by Medical staff in location or at a later date when you are able / the system is able to prior to starting training.

in short, the successful screening that occurs in the questionnaire is enough to be enrolled, but you will complete the medical two prior to completing any military specific training (IE, during your basic course).  A poor result on the medical (or any other, such as the security screening, etc) will mean an immediate release from the forces.

Clear as mud?  The Primary Reserve itself is still trying to wrinkle out the details with regards to this new process - so clarity is somewhat hard to come by as none of the members responsible for the process have been working with it very long.


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## Kerosen (18 Jun 2017)

I think there is still medical 2 for people over 40


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## medicineman (18 Jun 2017)

Kerosen said:
			
		

> I think there is still medical 2 for people over 40



That's why there is a screening process.

MM


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## Kerosen (18 Jun 2017)

medicineman said:
			
		

> That's why there is a screening process.
> 
> MM



What do you mean by screening process ?

thank you


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## medicineman (19 Jun 2017)

The questionnaires are screened by the Recruit Medical Office - they're looked over and if there are things that concern them, the applicant concerned either receives a request for more medical information or to attend a full, formal medical exam.

MM


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## Kerosen (19 Jun 2017)

Ok thanx 

i was thinking of something else went i saw screening process that as nothing to do 
with medical

I'm 46y.o. for the reserve i did my medical in april, 
Ottawa got it the may 4, 
the may 8 they wrote need more info (or something like that)
and never send nothing at this time !

The recruiter in Montréal was so pissoff of that and told me that happens very offen

What kind of paper work will they send me ?
What they want to check, because on the questionnaire i wrote nothing was wrong
don't take any medication, everything is find between my 2 ears, but had surgery on a finger un 1986
and a broken finger (the same lollll) in 2006.
I'm not worry i'm just asking to what will be next step.

Thank you MM


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## medicineman (20 Jun 2017)

You'll likely get a letter with a form to be filled out by your family doc regarding whatever condition(s) they're concerned about.  Doc fills it out and you fire it back.

MM


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## unmaxdemax (22 Jun 2017)

Good evening,

I filled in my medical questionnaire for reserve and completed only medical 1, as mentioned previously.

After calling my CFRC, it seems my file has been transferred to the RMO because they need further information. Does this mean I am going to receive a letter requiring more information? Or can it be that the RMO clears my file? I am 32 yo.

I don't really see why they would need more info according to the questionnaire... Only thing is I don't remember my titanus vaccination...


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## medicineman (22 Jun 2017)

If you check yes to any of the crash or emergency landing questions*, they want more information (mental health, past surgeries, sports injuries, etc).  If there is an issue with your vision or hearing screening, they'll want more information.  If you're overweight, they're going to want more information.  I think you get where I'm going...and why I thought this was a mentally challenged idea in the first place.

*Automatic or potential disqualifiers where a family/specialist doctor's form and letter are required.

MM


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## rogsco (27 Jun 2017)

If you are asking about the Enrolment Medical Screening that is part of the new (1 Apr 17) Expedited Reserve Enrolment (ERE) process it is straightforward. There are two parts:

1. A medical history questionnaire
2. A medical screening that will assess your Vision, Colour Vision, Hearing, Height, Weight and Blood Pressure. And only that. No physical exam.

If you are joining a Reserve unit that is directly supported by a Health Services Reserve Field Ambulance the Questionnaire and Screening will be done together and both of those are sent to the Recruiting Medical Office in Ottawa for review. In some locations the screening is still done in the recruiting centre. If all is good you can be enrolled.

If you are joining a Reserve unit that is not directly supported by a Health Services Reserve Field Ambulance you will complete the Questionnaire only and give it back to the unit recruiter sealed in an envelope provided. They will send it to the RMO for review. If all is good you can be enrolled BUT you will still have the medical screening (#2 above) no later than the first day of your BMQ/BMOQ course.

The RMO is able to provide a FIT / UNFIT / Need more INFO decision within about five days of receiving the form(s). If there is any need for more medical information you will be advised AND you will not be part of the ERE any longer. Your enrolment will be delayed until the needed information is received and reviewed by the RMO and a final FIT / UNFIT decision is made.

The number 1 reason for delays at the RMO is incorrectly completed forms. Make sure your questionnaire has your Service Number, your Date of Birth, the occupation you are applying for (MOSID) and make sure you sign the form with a witness. Ask your Recruiter for help if you don't know your Service Number or MOSID.

Hope that helps!


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Jun 2017)

rogsco said:
			
		

> The RMO is able to provide a FIT / UNFIT / Need more INFO decision within about five days of receiving the form(s). . . .



Are applicants/enrollees given a medical category?  Specifically G and O factors.



_Edited to add GO comment._


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## unmaxdemax (5 Jul 2017)

Quick update: I filled in my medical questionnaire, put it in a sealed envelope, and gave it to my recruiter in May.

My file shows it has been received. There is a note in my file, dated June 1st, saying "more information needed". Since then, my file is blocked. I have not received any letter. I am disappointed not to have had the opportunity to take Medical 2 to see a doctor in person. I have completed all the other steps (FORCE test, CFAT, interview). I guess I will have to wait...

M


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## Kerosen (12 Aug 2017)

unmaxdemax said:
			
		

> Quick update: I filled in my medical questionnaire, put it in a sealed envelope, and gave it to my recruiter in May.
> 
> My file shows it has been received. There is a note in my file, dated June 1st, saying "more information needed". Since then, my file is blocked. I have not received any letter. I am disappointed not to have had the opportunity to take Medical 2 to see a doctor in person. I have completed all the other steps (FORCE test, CFAT, interview). I guess I will have to wait...
> 
> M



Same for me here, and a went to the recruting center last week to see what was happening whit my recruting step, and the sergent  told me me there is a big lag at the medecine bureau in Ottawa, it's the second time i'm asking what was happening with my file (first time june 14) and he ask me if i want to complaint and this will force the chain commandement to answer to my complaint, i told the serg. that i was not there yet but i will in september.

I was hoping to start in my unit in september, but i don't think i will be in by next month.....

The FR has supposily faster entry now, but it's not the case for me, i hope it will go fast after i receive that letter for medical 2 !!!!


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## Kerosen (15 Aug 2017)

Finally got my letter today for medical 2 for additional test (fasting glucose, fasting lipide and ECG) + checking a surgery on a finger

I don't have a family doctor, so i will go on private a couple hundred dollars here and a couple dollars again for the blood test and ECG


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## war2001v (18 Sep 2017)

Hi there everyone, I made this account a while back to ask some questions about joining the reserves and I got some really useful answers, and I've been browsing the forums for a while trying to soak up everything I could find before I turned of age to join. Anyways I ended up applying online for the artillery (changed my mind from armour) and I realized that the forces.ca website said that this trade was in demand. I was wondering if this will have an impact on my recruiting process in anyway, positive or negative? Also I emailed an officer from the unit I was applying to and he told me to hurry up with my application as he said he wanted to try to get me in for "testing" on September 30? Does anyone know what this can mean and if it's a good sign? Thanks for your time!


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## PuckChaser (18 Sep 2017)

The reserves are attempting to complete an expediated recruiting process in under 30 days. You'll do basic screening and CFAT with a more stringent medical to follow which will allow you to stay in. If they would like you to come in, they have spots open. Typically the "in demand" on the website is more Regular Force trades. Your local unit has control in simple terms on how many spots they have open.


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## war2001v (18 Sep 2017)

Thanks for the quick reply, it was really helpful! Also for this sped up process, have there been any other significant changes other than what you said that'll have any affect on my application?


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## mariomike (18 Sep 2017)

See also,

"In December 2016, the Chief of the Defence Staff directed a new expedited Primary Reserve enrolment process"
https://army.ca/forums/threads/108357/post-1479921.html#msg1479921

As always, Recruiting is your most trusted source of up to date information.


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## zhang613 (29 Sep 2017)

Recruiting Center: Halifax
Regular/Reserve: P Reserve
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade : ACISS 
Application Date: JULY, 2016 
First Contact: JULY, 2016
Aptitude Test: DEC, 2016
Fitness test :JUNE 9,2017
Medical: JULY 14th 2017
Interview:JULY 14th 2017
Reference check: JULY 20,2017
Regiment call: SEPTEMBER 28,2017
Enrollment/Swear in:SEPTEMBER 30,2017
BMQending


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## jfposada (21 Apr 2018)

Hello,
As we know, the Reserves are going through a process to accelerate recruitment and training. I’ve read things here and there but I would be grateful if anyone could clarify the following:
-A reserve recruit can be enrolled while the security clearances are being done?
-Summer BMQ is now 4 weeks, what about BMOQ?
-I heard of a potential part-time CAP for reservists on the weekends being considered, any info about this?

Thank you!


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## Jules08 (4 May 2018)

Hey, jfposada, I am looking for the same answers. Have you found it? Thanks


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## RocketRichard (4 May 2018)

jfposada said:
			
		

> Hello,
> As we know, the Reserves are going through a process to accelerate recruitment and training. I’ve read things here and there but I would be grateful if anyone could clarify the following:
> -A reserve recruit can be enrolled while the security clearances are being done?
> -Summer BMQ is now 4 weeks, what about BMOQ?
> ...



BMOQ ARMY (formerly known as CAP) being offered in weekends would be way 'outside the box'


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## da1root (6 May 2018)

jfposada said:
			
		

> Hello,
> As we know, the Reserves are going through a process to accelerate recruitment and training. I’ve read things here and there but I would be grateful if anyone could clarify the following:
> -A reserve recruit can be enrolled while the security clearances are being done?
> -Summer BMQ is now 4 weeks, what about BMOQ?
> ...



-A reserve recruit can be enrolled while the security clearances are being done?

Answer: true

For the other 2 questions, not sure as those are training questions & my expertise is recruiting


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## ontheedge (29 Oct 2018)

After a medical and interview (same day) I was interviewed for my trade at a unit. I’m wondering what happens if it’s not a fit. Do they send my stuff back up the to brigade and try me in another unit?

Also - has anyone learned about the weekend offerings in more detail?  I’m looking to hear from folks who have completed the weekend course. BMOQ / BMOQ land


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## da1root (8 Nov 2018)

The Primary Reserve is in charge of their own recruiting; I'm not sure if there are any Primary Reserve Recruiters on here - you should ask the unit with which you interviewed what will happen.

Best Regards


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## RocketRichard (8 Nov 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> After a medical and interview (same day) I was interviewed for my trade at a unit. I’m wondering what happens if it’s not a fit. Do they send my stuff back up the to brigade and try me in another unit?
> 
> Also - has anyone learned about the weekend offerings in more detail?  I’m looking to hear from folks who have completed the weekend course. BMOQ / BMOQ land


Hello, if you’re referring to the Army Reserve as an officer you would do BMQ with the NCM’s, BMOQ part 2 then most likely BMOQ Army then your specific officer training. 


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## EncryptoID (5 Jun 2019)

Posted already. Sorry. Please delete


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## RocketScientist (16 Jun 2019)

Hello,

I've resisted posting about this thus far because it seems several people are experiencing delays with their application. However, my delay seems to be different in one distinct way: I completed and passed all my testing and interviews in November of last year, including an interview with the CO of 32 Combat Engineer Regiment (the unit I applied to), who gave me positive feedback. Since then, there have been no updated on my file.

I have contacted the recruiters a few times since then, only to be told that my file is being processed at the Brigade level. Most recently, I was asked if I had heard anything from 32 Brigade Recruiting. When I responded no, I have not, I didn't hear back. I've emailed them twice since, with no response.

In the mean time, I've recently seen a bunch of images posted by 32CBG about mass enrollments and BMQ graduations. Therefore, clearly, the recruiting process is very much alive and well. 

What could be the hold up, and how do I get a response from recruiters?

PS: I applied for the role of Engineering Officer


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## Teager (16 Jun 2019)

There  Facebook page has extension 2845 listed could try calling that. Summer time can be a more difficult time to get ahold of people but there will still be people working. 

If that doesn't work and you have contact for one of the clerk's at 32 CER ask them if they can give you a number for someone that's working at brigade recruiting.


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## RocketScientist (18 Jun 2019)

I've called twice in two days and left a message. No response yet.


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## kratz (18 Jun 2019)

I am not with 32 Combat Engineer Regiment, but my experience with PRes has me considering.

If 5 positions are open and 15 apply. Some applications will not get in.


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## RocketScientist (21 Jun 2019)

Finally got a hold of a recruiter, via LinkedIn of all places! He told me that currently there are 3 or 4 recruiters dealing with over 1000 applications, hence the delay. He then gave me an update on my file: It took longer than usual to get my security papers through because I'm a dual citizen, but they're cleared now, and soon my file will be "sent to Ottawa". Also, I should expect to hear back from them in August. He hopes to get me enrolled before November, when my medical expires.

Thought I should share with everyone so you know what's causing the delay. They seem to be short-staffed for the summer.


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## Caesar Augustus (22 Jun 2019)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> Finally got a hold of a recruiter, via LinkedIn of all places! He told me that currently there are 3 or 4 recruiters dealing with over 1000 applications, hence the delay. He then gave me an update on my file: It took longer than usual to get my security papers through because I'm a dual citizen, but they're cleared now, and soon my file will be "sent to Ottawa". Also, I should expect to hear back from them in August. He hopes to get me enrolled before November, when my medical expires.
> 
> Thought I should share with everyone so you know what's causing the delay. They seem to be short-staffed for the summer.



I'm wondering what's your timeline, how long it takes to get the security clearance etc because I might be in the same position..cheers


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## RocketScientist (23 Jun 2019)

I completed everything on my end in November of last year. CFAT, medical, physical, officer review board, paperwork, etc. So its been 7-8 months from then.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Jun 2019)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> Finally got a hold of a recruiter, via LinkedIn of all places! He told me that currently there are 3 or 4 recruiters dealing with over 1000 applications, hence the delay.



FYI... this is ridiculous.

That is all ;0


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## da1root (26 Jul 2019)

Please keep in mind with Reserve Recruiting that during the summer most of the recruiters are not at their units or their own homes.  In most cases Reserve Unit Recruiters are sent away to various locations to teach on Basic Training.  This makes it so that they aren't answering their phones, emails, etc. Please be patient with your Reserve Recruiters (and yes sometimes you'll be able to get in touch with them via other social media; almost all recruiters are on LinkedIn).


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## RocketRichard (26 Jul 2019)

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Please keep in mind with Reserve Recruiting that during the summer most of the recruiters are not at their units or their own homes.  In most cases Reserve Unit Recruiters are sent away to various locations to teach on Basic Training.  This makes it so that they aren't answering their phones, emails, etc. Please be patient with your Reserve Recruiters (and yes sometimes you'll be able to get in touch with them via other social media; almost all recruiters are on LinkedIn).


Yes. This is correct. Most of us unit recruiters can be reached via social media. We don’t always have regular access to our Forces accounts nor are  we at our offices as much during the summer. One could also call the unit OR and the day staff should be able to put you in contact with a unit recruiter. 


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