# Topo



## chappyk (13 Jun 2010)

Hey Guys:

Sorry if this has already been covered, but I am wondering about Topo.  How hard is it to learn, and if you arent the greatest at math are you screwed.

Does anyone know of any sites, etc that someone could check out who doesnst have a clue about topo

Thanks


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## Armymedic (13 Jun 2010)

If it were hard do you think anyone would be able to teach it to everyone?

In the words of Sue:
You think this is hard? Try being waterboarded, that's hard.
You think this is hard? I am passing a gall stone as we speak, that's hard.
You think this was hard? Try auditioning for Baywatch and being told they're going in another direction. That was hard.

p.s.- its called 'land navigation' or simply 'map and compass'.


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## Michael OLeary (13 Jun 2010)

It's not hard to learn the basics of map and compass. Basic math skills and a fundamental understanding of basic geometry can help make that learning process easier.  It does take a bit of work to become good at the use of map and compass and be comfortable with your skills.  It also takes continued effort to maintain those skills, so that you are confident in them when the batteries dies on your GPS.

It's easy to become reliant on devices like the GPS and forget the importance of being able to execute basic skills like map and compass with no advanced technology - and that includes remembering to have a compass and a map protractor in your kit.

As for how hard or easy it is, the Boy Scouts teach it to young teenagers all the time.


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## DexOlesa (13 Jun 2010)

buy a map, buy a compass, go nuts.


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## 57Chevy (13 Jun 2010)

:alarm:         TOPO 101: 

http://maps.nrcan.gc.ca/topo101/index_e.php


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Jun 2010)

SFB said:
			
		

> p.s.- its called 'land navigation' or simply 'map and compass'.



Unless things have changed, they call it "topo" at CFLRS.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Jun 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Unless things have changed, they call it "topo" at CFLRS.



Hope someone got their 'Leading Change' bubble filled. :

It's always been, as far back as I can remember, land navigation or for slang 'map & compass' the odd guy would call it orienteering but that term wasn't heard often. Topo (topographical) doesn't even begin to describe the art or skill needed for a basic soldier. I don't know why people keep trying to fix things that aren't broken.


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Hope someone got their 'Leading Change' bubble filled. :
> 
> It's always been, as far back as I can remember, land navigation or for slang 'map & compass' the odd guy would call it orienteering but that term wasn't heard often. Topo (topographical) doesn't even begin to describe the art or skill needed for a basic soldier. I don't know why people keep trying to fix things that aren't broken.



I went to St-Jean in 1993 and it was called "topo" back then. Since that pre-dates CFPAS, i doubt any "leading change" was affected.

"Topo" is just short for "topographie".....as you may remember ( aluminium pot syndrome and all), St-Jean used to only run Franco basic training and terms like this are holdover from those days.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Jun 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I went to St-Jean in 1993 and it was called "topo" back then. Since that pre-dates CFPAS, i doubt any "leading change" was affected.
> 
> "Topo" is just short for "topographie".....as you may remember ( aluminium pot syndrome and all), St-Jean used to only run Franco basic training and terms like this are holdover from those days.



That's why I stay in the field and off bases  8)


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## Armymedic (13 Jun 2010)

Regardless of what it is called, it is an easy skill to learn and use, but a very difficult skill to master.


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## MasterInstructor (13 Jun 2010)

I did my topo in Basic few weeks ago, written exam is not hard, theory is not hard at all, hard part is walking through the bush in a strait line and finding your little signs in a dense forrest..  And yes, it is called topo at CFLRS


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Jun 2010)

Who cares what it is called..... could be called learn how to find donkey nuts..... they will teach it to you and you will learn from them end of story.....


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Jun 2010)

MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> I did my topo in Basic few weeks ago, written exam is not hard, theory is not hard at all, hard part is walking through the bush in a strait line and finding your little signs in a dense forrest..  And yes, it is called topo at CFLRS



Sounds like the "application of theory to practical" was the challenge then.   8)

Listen in class, remember what you were taught, APPLY it the way you were taught.  If you did it all correctly, and are working with 6 figure grids, right?  Then once your pacers tell you that you've gone the correct distance, you should be in a 100m square area.  Do your box search or whatever you are doing and voila.

And...from my experience...its ALWAYS hard to walk in a straight line in the woods (without hitting stationary objects such as trees) so thats why you do things like "shoot the bearing, find something prominent, march to it, rinse, repeat as necessary...

Apply what you learn in the class and get the foundation of skills down.


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## McD (13 Jun 2010)

http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/34770.0.html
I thought of this too and then found some sound perspective here. Try the link. 

Practicing now could be fun, theres places that do training in search and rescue that do map and compass work. But to be honest mostly cash grabs by adventure groups and you develop some Wally scout troop leaders bad habits. My experiences in Rope Rescue with a particular company, and a particular Wally (who does their map deals too), compel me to offer a warning while investigating this route. 

Im sure you can gain some idea of familiarity with alot thats going to be taught to us. You'll end up re-learning it come that point in training anyway, being taught the CF way . 

I know how to iron,  but do I know how they will want me to iron? No. Is it likely available online? Yes.

But, at the risk of others not thinking I am taking things seriously, I'll enjoy my summer and worry about doing what Im taught when its taught, to the "T" of how it was taught. Don't stress. You will have platoon mates learning along with you. 

 Enjoy your summer, bring a whistle, water and power bars if go wandering, :camo:


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## HItorMiss (13 Jun 2010)

They Teach 6 figure in Basic??? 

Whats the bloody point in that?


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Jun 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> They Teach 6 figure in Basic???
> 
> Whats the bloody point in that?



I think its cause that's the lowest you can accurately do with the roamers....... and IIRC it gets you to within 100m of where you should be....


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> They Teach 6 figure in Basic???
> 
> Whats the bloody point in that?



If you can do 6....you can do 8.

Not everyone needs to work with 8 in their professional careers either.


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## HItorMiss (13 Jun 2010)

Completely disagree...

Trust I know of people who have been lost within 100m of where they wanted to be. If we taught 8 fig from the very start it just makes more sense train to highest standard for everyone why train for mediocure?


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> more sense train to highest standard for everyone why train for mediocure?



Well lets just start teaching how to work in Lat&Long while we're at it.......2 elements out of 3 work in that ........


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## HItorMiss (13 Jun 2010)

Now you're just being facetious.....  :

Nav is is a core skill why teach a core skill to mediocre makes no sense. That's like teaching half a weapons drill thinking well that's good enough isn't it.....


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Now your being fecisious.....  :



Oh good...you understood what i was going for  ;D



> Nav is is a core skill why teach a core skill to mediocure makes no sense. Thats like teaching half a weapons drill thinking well thats good enough isn't it.....



Nav is a core skill.....but to what level ? Remember, this is basic training. Do we need everyone to be able to find a stick in the woods or is being able to locate one's self the core skill ?


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## HItorMiss (13 Jun 2010)

Cdn

Come on think about even if I know where I am to withing 100m I'm still not where I need to be AND I contest as I have seen be lost using a 6 figure ref. 100m box search or 10m box search and what would be the extra effort to teach two more figures?


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> what would be the extra effort to teach two more figures?



I dont think it would be all that much.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Jun 2010)

BM,

I'm guessing the problem wouldn't be _teaching_ it...it would be the ability of BMQ troops to actually GET within a 10m square on their basic nav...errr...topo...practical check.


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## Michael OLeary (13 Jun 2010)

There was a time when the use of 8-fig GRs wasn't taught at all, except for trades and tasks the specifically required additional precision.  This was, quite realistically, based on the assessment that the use of 8-fig GRs was inside the likely errors of using the current map protractor, the precision of the scale on the Silva compass and the thickness of a pencil lead. That was also assuming all involved were working with the same care and level of precision to start with. And those "trades and tasks that specifically required additional precision," they were also given the tools to achieve it.


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## HItorMiss (13 Jun 2010)

EITS

You taught there do you really see it being that much more effort honestly?


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

Theres alot of things we could teach on Basic.........but it would then be 28 weeks long.

In the time alloted, there is sufficient time to get candidates that may have never done this before, down to 100m accuracy and be comfortable with that skill.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Jun 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> EITS
> 
> You taught there do you really see it being that much more effort honestly?



From the teaching perspective, certainly not.  

But...I'd suspect you'd see issues with the candidates being able to find out where they are/navigate to Point X in 8 fig.  I'd guess you'd see alot of "did not meet the standard" PC results.

But...thats just my  :2c: and its worth exactly that I figure.   8)


*editted to add

But, giving them the basic skills "seems" to be working.  I did my BSERE with a few of the DE AES Ops.  We worked in grids, in lat/long, using compass, and GPS.  They did fine on all the Nav aspects of the course.  All they had in terms of CF trg at the time was BMQ and they were able to step up, using SARDOTS, 10 Fig grids, triangulation etc.  On our BAQC Nav portion, and now the IAQC (flying phase), they did and are getting thru all the nav stuff, including MGRS, Lat/Long, GEOREF, so it appears the basic skill sets taught are sinking in.  Atleast with the guys I am working with currently.


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

5 more posts beofre this goes back to "seperate BMQ for each element".......


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## SupersonicMax (13 Jun 2010)

Might as well teach all the recruits how to send a 9-line to a fighter.  After all, anybody may eventually have to do emergency CAS.

The point of Basic Training is to teach the basics of military life.  Not to make you proficient in anything.


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## kratz (13 Jun 2010)

BM,

So average sailor comes ashore. No map. No reference. 
Said 8 point training value is?

The Op asked about topo training WRT a BMQ course. 
Not everyone requires the same skills.

CDN Av: post # 1  :nod:


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## armychick2009 (15 Jun 2010)

Chappy, 
I'm pretty much "math retarded" as quoted by my grade 3 teacher and decided to live up to that high expectation throughout the years. I really don't like math a whole lot and probably never will. I can however, do compass work... so, there's hope for you. 

Someone else mentioned SAR (Search and Rescue) -- maybe contact someone in your area if you want to get familiar with compass work beforehand (and be weary if they rely on GPS solely, trust me... GPS doesn't always work for you when you're actually in a bush with overhead tree cover or cloud cover but a compass will!)  Just realise when you get to St. Jean, they will teach you their way so you may need to dump habits that someone else teaches you beforehand. 

You can buy a compass for about $70 (you can get cheaper ones but I wanted one with a few extra bells and whistles for more accurate navigation) and a map of your local area with the proper grid lines (degrees) to practise with -- there are online tutorials for it. Find a local landmark, set your co-ordinates and start walking!


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## chappyk (15 Jun 2010)

Thanks ArmyChick2009, as usual I am putting the cart before the horse, but a bit of practice beforehand might definitely be a good idea.  I think truthfully I am just afraid of messing up on the courses.  Mind you I have told myself that if I have to, I will stay longer than the 13 weeks being recoursed until I do pass.  I am not walking out of CFLRS without graduating.


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## DonaldMcL (15 Jun 2010)

Read the right end of the needle and you'll be fine. DO NOT, i repeat DO NOT write on your maps in red pen/marker. I still remember the look on my sergeants face when he asked me where we were and pulled out my map with put the red light on it. "Well aren't you just f%$ing brilliant" I believe were his exact words. Another quick tip... aim to be either left or right of target just a little. You can't walk in the woods in a straight line, and it you try and stop where you think your target should be and it's not... which way do you go? If you purposely meant to shoot it to the right, once you've reached your distance, you can bank on it being just to the left of you.

You'll learn how to properly use a compass in basic, making all the proper adjustments for variation and such. 
Have fun and don't stress. I was leading a 2.3km leg at night, in which my compass wouldn't illuminate and was off in a wrong direction by 30 degrees or so. I made it through =D


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## MasterInstructor (15 Jun 2010)

At CFLRS we did learn 8 figure grid system, we used 6 figure for a single class, rest of the BMQ was all in 8 figure...


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## 57Chevy (16 Jun 2010)

Here's a good source of information for beginners......and for a refresher for some.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/5043576/Royal-Canadian-Army-Cadet-Navigation


(A good rule of thumb to remember for grid references is: " in the house up the stairs")


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## secup (23 Jun 2010)

Hi there,

Just so you know, like everything else in BMQ, you will have so much time to practice and so much exams retake and the exams is like 10 questions or so. Out of the 50 candidates that were with me, no one failed. and while i was in PAT for a bit , i didnt see anyone being recourse for failing Topo (that is 0 our of approx 2000 candidates), I saw some being for failed first aid classes tho ...

Nobody's gonna scream at you if you ask questions or so. Do not be afraid to ask questions. The only thing our instructors told us was "This test is quite easy, you should be only worried when you do topo in your warrant classes." which is quite a few years after BMQ.

Hope that helped.


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