# One Tax for the CF.



## Arron (29 Dec 2006)

I know this might be somewhat of a dead horse, but has anyone addressed how the different provincial tax rates affects CF members?  

Late this year I was posted from a province with a low tax rate, to one with a very high tax rate.  As an outcome, as a family we are looking at owing into the 5 digits, and that is with 5 digits worth of RRSP's contributed for the year, and all on top of a large loss in take home pay.

I'm looking at bringing this up the chain as a grievance, because a posting is suppose to be "at no cost to the member".  And if PLD is calculated to each posting that includes tax rates.  Just because I live in one province on the 31st of December I pay for the whole year at that one location, even if i lived up until December 30th somewhere else.  PLD/IRP comes no where close to making up for this.

As well, due to living in one province with a high tax rate, you will continue paying a high tax rate if you go OUTCAN from that province.  This is really unfair for 2 members posted  for example to Germany.  One member is from Alberta and one from Quebec.  Even though they may be the same rank, same incentive, same trade, the one from Alberta will take home thousands more than the one from Quebec for the same job at the same place.  PLPD is an outdated system and does not take into affect anything like this, and is very blinded (or conceived in costs, or "politically correct" that no province is better than the other, or penny pinching or whatever) into taking this into account cost of living, or quality of life for those same 2 members if they are in Germany or in Alberta or Quebec or any other province.

Is this something that has been addressed, or being addressed?  Either a US military like system that the member decides their home state, or an averaged tax rate, or Ottawa tax rate for all CF members could fix this.  This is not a isolated problem, i know many people who have to pay thousands back because of a posting to another province, or some for doing the same job at the same location but one taking home more than the other.

Any information or help on this subject would be greatly appreciated,  I will share any and all information or outcome with everyone.  I do plan on approaching the C of C, ombudsman, member of parliament and so on to try to fix this problem for everyone.  So anything anyone could offer either pro or con would be appreciated.

There has to be a better way than forking out all this cost incurred due to being a CF member required to work anywhere at anytime.

* This is not a Quebec slam, or Alberta props.  I used them as an example because they are at opposite ends of the tax rate scale within Canada (of course  circumstances can alter this somewhat for top and bottom).

Canada Tax rates
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html

Quebec tax rates
http://www.taxtips.ca/qctax.htm#QCTaxRates

Alberta tax rates
http://www.taxtips.ca/abtax.htm


----------



## Magravan (29 Dec 2006)

I haven't had this issue, but I can definitely understand where you are coming from. I wish you luck with trying to get it sorted out, as I suspect that you may need it given the beauracracy involved.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Dec 2006)

Are you trying to tell us that you lived in Alberta on Dec the 30th and got posted to Quebec on the 31st?  I have never heard of that being done before.

Sorry that you lost some money on taxes this year on your move from Alberta to Quebec.  I guess we should also feel sorry for when you move back to Alberta and get a wopping big refund.  I am also sorry that the two of you get more in PLD in Quebec than you get in Alberta.  

To the best of my knowledge, people posted to Germany all pay Taxes at the Ontario rate as living outside of Canada.  That is because their Mailing Address is one for Belleville, ON.  

But seeing as you are on a crusade for more money in your pocket, how about a plug for all those members of the CF in Ontario who have to pay OHIP (tax) deductions and not partake in the Plan or hold a OHIP Card.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Dec 2006)

Tax everyone at the highest rate??..............................hehehe..... :warstory:


----------



## MJP (29 Dec 2006)

No he is just stating that CRA bases your taxes for the year on where you live on 31 Dec.  I know his pain, and can sympathize with the move and the associated loss of money.  It hits hard in the first year, but hopefully your PLD (which I have no clue is for the area) will make up for it.  I know your housing costs are somewhat better than what better than what we have here in Alberta!  My buddy is posted to St Jean and bought a house for $258,000 that would cost an easy 500 thousand here.


Sure Bruce I like it....just means a bigger tax return for moi!


----------



## geo (29 Dec 2006)

Arron,
Unfortunately - tax policy changes aren't in the cards anytime soon.
In a probable election year, it would not be a popular issue for the provincial gov't and all others in the province (civies) wouldn't be impressed either.
As stated, while you reside in Quebec you will not pay FSS/QHOSP.  You do not have to pay the higher HST and regardless of owning or renting, your cost of living in Quebec will be much cheaper than living anywhere near the Oil patch.

Also living in Quebec, not much of a shoulder to cry on at this end or the room

Cheers & may 2007 be a better year than 2006


----------



## George Wallace (29 Dec 2006)

Actually Arron, I don't feel for you at all.  Many of us have been in that same situation, having been posted several times to new provinces, overseas, etc.  What are you going to cry about next?  Car Insurance rates be standardized across the Country for CF Members.  Home Owner Insurance be one flat rate across the country for CF members.  Medical Fees be standardized across the nation, so that all CF members pay and receive rebates, like in Alberta, and are not taxed like in Ontario.  Perhaps everyone in the CF should get the same PLD straight across the board, to the benefit of those in Ottawa who really get screwed big time.  Then there should also be a common flat rate for PMQ Rent across the country too.  How about we all get the same pay and benefits as those aboard ship, Sea Pay, cheap booze, cheap cigarettes, etc.  How about we do away with Spec Pay or even better create a new Spec Pay for everyone who puts their life on the line in the Cbt Arms.   Perhaps we should also change MATA/PATA Lve so that it isn't taxed the way it is; with no EI, but full pay for the full six months.   I suppose you want Canex to also give you bigger discounts in all of their concessions.   It would be nice if the world was a nice warm fuzzy place where everyone was equal and received everything on the same scale of issue and paid for it in an equal fashion, but I think that warm fuzzy world was created only in literature and it was called Communism.  We all know how miserably Communism failed in the real world.


----------



## SKIN052 (29 Dec 2006)

Arron, you bring up some very good points. One fact that you mention is that posting are not supposed to be of any financial cost to the member. This point alone may very well help you with your issue if you should decided to bring it forward. Send a message to the Ombudsman, I am sure there office is extremely busy but will eventually get back to you with an answer. Best of luck, let us know how you make out. I am of to sunny Winnipeg this summer so I will also be caught in the Tax loophole this year.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Dec 2006)

SKIN052 said:
			
		

> Arron, you bring up some very good points. One fact that you mention is that posting are not supposed to be of any financial cost to the member.



I think the two of you are stretching it with the references to "a Posting not being any financial cost to the member".  You will have to realize that this is not true.  Yes, there is a policy now in effect to cover some of the losses you may have in the sale of a home, which many did not have covered in the past, but it does not cover 100% of your losses.  The policies are not set up to "guarantee that the member does not have any financial costs put on them", but to aid in alleviating any excessive costs.  You are not getting a winfall or winning the Lotto here.

When it comes "Tax Time", Taxes have nothing to do with your move.  Taxes have to do with your wages earned.  That would include the taxable funds you earned on your move, but at the same time will not include the nontaxable funds that you got.  If you are not frugal with your money, don't cry that the Taxman was unfair to you.  Plan ahead and factor in the Taxes that you will likely have to pay.


----------



## Magravan (29 Dec 2006)

So... Pay taxes as though you got sent to the worst place tax-wise, so that you are assured that an unexpected posting doesn't cost you? Anything that you overpay is like a lump sum at the end? But then, you are giving the government a tax-free loan, as someone mentioned in another thread about overpaying taxes...


----------



## GAP (29 Dec 2006)

This might be a plus if the Federal government levies a standard tax rate on CF members and then uses this approach in their recruiting drive...


----------



## niner domestic (29 Dec 2006)

Arron, Make sure you take your tax return to an accountant this year (no offence to HR Block type people - but you need someone who knows all the tax credits and deductions that you can use) to have some of your tax liability mitigated.  You may not be fully apprised of all the available credits and deductions so the amount you have in your head right now may be a lot smaller come filing time.  An accountant will also advise you how to maximise (or minimise) your financial gains and losses.  

For the next time, once posted, have your pay clerk adjust your tax deductions on your pay to reflect the new taxation bracket and the difference in what you  would have had to pay had you been a resident of the province for the entire year.  It doesn't quite hurt as much on a bi monthly basis as it does come April 30th with one large payment.   Same goes for anyone that is thinking about cashing in an RRSP, RSP, add some extra tax deduction on each pay - it won't hurt as much come tax time.  

You can try to advocate a change in the way the CCRA is applied to the CF's membership but I seriously doubt you'll get any where as it would require a legislative amendment and chances are a whole heap of pers in the lower provincial taxation levels would not be happy with you. As well, what you are arguing for is a reduction in the provincial income tax rates and that is far outside the realm of the your CoC, Ombudsman or MP to deal with.  Federal taxation rates are a 3 level percentage based on income amounts in incremental amounts.  It doesn't matter where you live in the country, it's all the same amounts.  17% - 21% - 26%  it's been those percentages since I can remember and  as I said, the difference is the provincial income tax liability.


----------



## old man neri (29 Dec 2006)

It won't happen. If the CF had a standard tax rate across the board one of two things would happen:

1) You would find yourself living in a province (like Quebec) paying less taxes than your neighbours which would not be fair seeing as you all enjoy the same provincial services. 
2) You would find yourself living in a province (like Ontario) paying more taxes than your neighbours in which case you would be creating another thread to complain.

The only possible solution would be change the tax code for all Canadian residents. Change it so that in longer depends on where you live on the 31st of december but rather make it proportional as to where you lived and for how long. For example if you spent 6 months in Alberta and then 6months in BC then you would pay 6 months at the BC rate and 6 months at the Alberta rate of your total combined income. Is this a reasonable solution? I don't know, I am not a tax expert nor do I know if it could ever be implemented and if it did what other problems would it create. 

This is not a CF only issue, it happens to everyone who moves in this country.


----------



## SKIN052 (29 Dec 2006)

old man neri said:
			
		

> This is not a CF only issue, it happens to everyone who moves in this country.


great point Old man, well said. Somewhat narrow minded of us to think this is a Forces only issues. Maybe more of a point to bring up to our MP's as opposed to the Ombudsman.


----------



## aesop081 (29 Dec 2006)

Arron,

Once upon a time i got posted from Petawawa to Edmonton......Taxes went down, i made lots of money, King Klein gave me some more.....life was good.  Then one day i got posted to Gagetown......the Government sent me a tax bill for $2500 bucks at the same time as i was buying myself a divorce.  That was a kick in the nuts.  Then i got posted to Greenwood and maintained the east coast tradition of taking it up the rear tax-wise.  All of a sudden , i get Posted west and at tax time, i get the proverbial s**t-load for a refund !!!! My pay check even went up $200 because of the lower tax rate.  All ballances out wouldnt you say ?

Add in there the fact that you get all your move expenses payed for, everything gets done for you , heck, you can even use the money provided by DND to buy down your mortgage interest rate.......

Dont foget that you get free health care, education money, you dont have to buy work clothes, etc, etc, etc.....

You have got nothing to complain about......


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Dec 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Dont foget that you get free health care, etc, etc, etc..



Not in Ontario!!


----------



## navymich (30 Dec 2006)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> cdnaviator said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe he meant that by being in the military you get free health care.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Dec 2006)

No this goes back to the several whiny threads on the "its not a new tax" health tax........


----------



## George Wallace (30 Dec 2006)

You know the list of things that you could standardize across the CF, (and you would also have to include the RCMP, then other Civil Servants,) is quite long and ranges from the quite trivial to the more 'expensive' in costs:

1.  A standard Licence Plate for all CF members.
2.  A standard Drivers Licence for all CF members and their families.
3.  A standard rent for PMQ's.
4.  A standard Insurance Policy for both Auto and Home.
5.  A standard PLD rate for all CF members.
6.  A standard Field/Sea allowance.
7.  A standard Pay (either no Spec Pay, or all Spec Pay).
8.  A standard Mess Dues.

The list could be endless.  Why stop with just Taxes?  

That or accept the fact that you are living in a different Region of Canada, on a Different Base, and all requirements are different, thereby causing all other matters that you are complaining about to be different too.  The standard of living varies across Canada.  Taxes and other Fees also vary as a result of these differences.  I am sure that the price of milk in Alberta does not match the price of milk in Quebec.  

I found it interesting that a Large Double Double in Ontario, with the GST and PST, is cheaper than a Large Double Double in Alberta, where there is only a GST.   I would have figured that a Lg DD would cost the same all across Canada, but no it doesn't.


----------



## navymich (30 Dec 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> 2.  A standard Drivers Licence for all CF members and their families.




I'd like the idea of that one.  Something Canadian, vice being Provincial/Territorial.  I can see it coming in handy as we travel all over for courses, training etc.  I know an out-of-province license still works, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that gets questions and looks when you use it for ID for anything.  And also, isn't there a time period in which you have to change to the province you're residing in, or is that only your vehicle license?


----------



## aesop081 (30 Dec 2006)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Not in Ontario!!



You know damned well what i'm talking about. Military members get free health care...full stop.  As for your families, well...you pay a premium in Alberta too.  NB doesnt charge extra for HC...have you suffered through the HC system in NB ? I have.......Just like non-issued boots, you get what you pay for.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> 1.  A standard Licence Plate for all CF members.



Who cares, the military pays for you to change your plates.......no cost to you.


> 2.  A standard Drivers Licence for all CF members and their families.


Again, who cares since the military pays to change your drivers liscence and that of your family when you move.....no cost to you.


> 3.  A standard rent for PMQ's.


Why ?  Are real estate prices to be standard for those of us smart enough to live on the economy ?


> 4.  A standard Insurance Policy for both Auto and Home.


That would be just what we need...another government run insurance program......you dont live in BC i can tell.....I like MY rates going up whenever SOMEONE ELSE has an accident when they're drunk.


> 5.  A standard PLD rate for all CF members.


Anyone who advocates a standard PLD rate across the country obviously lacks understanding on what PLD is and what it is for ( not pointing at you GW)


> 6.  A standard Field/Sea allowance.


Field pay is standard for everyone, sea pay is standard for everyone too......if you want sea pay/ aircrew allowance because its more money...remuster.....my MOC is short 50 people.


> 7.  A standard Pay (either no Spec Pay, or all Spec Pay).


Again, someone who says that doesnt understand why certain MOCs are in a different pay category than others.  The grass isnt always greener on the other side boys and girls, take it from me. Most specialist MOCs are very short people...feel free to remuster....


> 8.  A standard Mess Dues.


Why standardise them...why not just get rid of them........I know i'm not getting my money's worth out of my mess...it sucks !!

EDIT : Everyone to complains about pay can go on civvy street and find a job with a comparable starting salary, benefits and advantages who provides all the training, does not require previous experience and has the same job security......... :


----------



## aesop081 (30 Dec 2006)

airmich said:
			
		

> And also, isn't there a time period in which you have to change to the province you're residing in, or is that only your vehicle license?



Most provinces i have been to require that you change-over your plates within 90 days of MOVING there.  When you go on course in another province, you are nt required to do so as long as your plates are valid in the province of issue.  I went to CFANS in Manitoba for 6 months with NB plates.......good to go.


----------



## antique (30 Dec 2006)

Arron,
Back in November,you were complaining about the fact that work sucked in St-Jean,that you and your wife had no life,that you basically hated the place and now,it's the taxes.
Well let me tell you that first and foremost you are a Canadian citizen who chose to join the military out of your own free will,with the knowledge that postings are  a part of life  with it's good and it's not so good.
St-Jean is a challenge I know all too well but,it's also a place where you can get job satisfaction if you set your mind to it.
Quebec is also a challenge I know all too well but,see it as an opportunity to learn another way of life and another language.People in Quebec will speak to you in English if you try to speak to them in French.Hey there are rude people everywhere across Canada but if you can learn another language it makes you the smartest one.A soldier's quality is adaptation
Taxes are high true enough but that's life....complaining and ranting won't change anything.
At the end of the day,if you are not happy in your job,where you live,how much money you take home well maybe you should consider a 9 to 5 job in a lower taxes province....mind you being in the military is really the best job... so stop complaining we have all been there...make the best of it instead
Je me souviens


----------



## aesop081 (30 Dec 2006)

Well said antique


----------



## geo (30 Dec 2006)

Let's face it, each province offers different services and these services cost money. 
The majority of the Quebec population like the idea of rent control (excl rental property owners)... thus, Quebec maintains a rental board... thus rents in Quebec are much more closely regulated than elsewhere in the Country. Do you draw benefit from this?


----------



## George Wallace (30 Dec 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> You know damned well what i'm talking about. Military members get free health care...full stop.  As for your families, well...you pay a premium in Alberta too.  NB doesnt charge extra for HC...have you suffered through the HC system in NB ? I have.......Just like non-issued boots, you get what you pay for.



Just a point on this.  Yes, CF members get 'free' health care while in the Service.  What is different, is how each province treats 'Serving Members'.  Alberta charges CF Members a 'premium' and the CF Members entitled to get that refunded.  Ontario on the other hand charges the CF Members a 'health Tax' which does not entitle CF Members to a refund.  

There are many inequalities across the land, if you want to nitpick.  In the end they pretty much all balance out.


----------



## Arron (31 Dec 2006)

Alberta is the lowest rate with 10% income tax for all levels of income, compare that to any other province.  I have never lived or worked there, but the numbers speak for themselves.  I used Alberta and Quebec as an example simply because of the numbers, Newfoundland and Ontario would of worked just as well for tax rate differences.  Dec 30 was used as an example,  if you were posted Newfoundland to Ontario on 30 Dec your hit the payload,  the other way around not being  so nice.

To the best of my knowledge a posting outside of Canada, you pay the last province you lived in,  I believe you pay Ottawa's rate on deployments.  Here is on link specific for Quebec:

http://www.revenu.gouv.qc.ca/eng/bulletin/index.asp?nom=i-3_22-4

I do know of members from Quebec, BC, NS that are paying respective provincial tax rates while posted OUTCAN.  If there is some way to change this, please post!  It would be very beneficial to some members  OUTCAN if they could pay Ottawa's tax rate.

The US military has a simple solution, each member can chose and claim for their home state.  Who cares if you pay more or less than your neighbor, you don't have the same access to the benefits of each province, and the majority of your neighbors don't have to worry about moving every 2-6 years.  Or another way to solve this, and would be simple to fit into the present system would be to include tax amounts into the reimbursed or even deductions with IRP to make less impact on moving, then it would be more “no cost to member”.

The proportional monthly tax rates per province would be an awesome solution!  Rounding to the month, not year would solve many problems for many members would make postings so much easier.  Maybe if we all called or wrote to our MP's.....

I have talked with a lawyer, his retaining fee will eat most savings occurred.  Thank you niner domestic for the idea of an accountant, I think it might be the next best route to take, and hopefully save more than spent on fees.

I am sorry for those who takes offense talking about money or any other problems someone may have.  I did not bring up any costs of insurance or any costs in province A or B, health care quality, nor personal issues or views in this thread or yearly tax rates.  I only brought up incurred costs during the move which is suppose to be “no cost to the member”.

PLD here is 0$ vs where i was at 6$, no biggie.  That is not the kicker here, the fact that we are looking at owing 5 digits due to a move is (not the actual tax, just owing because of the move).  If the CF moved us Jan 1, this would not be a issue because we would get PLD and pay taxes for the year at one location.  As it gets later into the tax year for a COS, the amount owed increases.  How is this fair to anyone who have to pay large sums in taxes due to a move past Jan 1?  I hope a accountant can help reduce this, and i hope other deductions may help.  

There is a new Quebec 6% or 500$ deduction that may help some :

http://www.revenu.gouv.qc.ca/eng/entreprise/retenues/changements.asp

This is something that must be fixed with a policy of some sort and IS a problem with the CF and how well it takes care of its members.  Maybe we should all write to our MP's or ombudsman, we will all be affected by this at some point.


----------



## Michael OLeary (31 Dec 2006)

Having read through this thread, I cannot help but think that we would not be hearing from you about the "unfairness" of this system if you had been posted in the other direction.


----------



## armyvern (31 Dec 2006)

Arron said:
			
		

> I do know of members from Quebec, BC, NS that are paying respective provincial tax rates while posted OUTCAN.  If there is some way to change this, please post!  It would be very beneficial to some members  OUTCAN if they could pay Ottawa's tax rate.



Perhaps then they maintain (Ie still own) a principal residence in that respective province which they are renting out to someone while they are posted overseas? All the pers I know who are posted overseas are paying the Ontario tax rate, which is the norm.

As for flat-tax, it simply won't work because a whole new set of complaints and problems crop up.

Ie...the guy now posted in Alberta and yourself, in Quebec, are now both paying a flat-tax on your income of 10%.

Complaint from those who happen to get posted to Alberta is now "Well how come I get the same take home pay as the guy in Quebec yet my standard of living is so much lower than his? He gets to buy a nice 4 bedroom house for 200K to house his family in and I get to pay 500k for a freaking 3 bedroom 1200 square foot bungalow? It's not my family's fault the military posted me to Alberta so why should he get more in the bank after expenses than I?"


----------



## GO!!! (31 Dec 2006)

Unless I'm grievously mistaken, provincial taxes pay for things that are the provinces bag, like language police and 5$/day daycare.

Why don't you have a bunch of kids - you can send them to daycare for 5 bucks - thats worth *600-850$ A MONTH * here in alberta, and then learn french, on the Provincial Government's dime in all your newfound spare time! 

Each posting has it's benefits, I can see a few good ones to yours!


----------



## Arron (31 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Perhaps then they maintain (Ie still own) a principal residence in that respective province which they are renting out to someone while they are posted overseas? All the pers I know who are posted overseas are paying the Ontario tax rate, which is the norm.



That could be, I will have to ask.  I know coming out of Quebec, you continue to pay Quebec tax, I've called revenue Quebec and as per that link i posted.  Do you know of any documentation with more info?



			
				The Librarian said:
			
		

> Complaint from those who happen to get posted to Alberta is now "Well how come I get the same take home pay as the guy in Quebec yet my standard of living is so much lower than his? He gets to buy a nice 4 bedroom house for 200K to house his family in and I get to pay 500k for a freaking 3 bedroom 1200 square foot bungalow? It's not my family's fault the military posted me to Alberta so why should he get more in the bank after expenses than I?"



Good point.  It can very quickly get complicated.  This whole system needs to be updated.  The idea of monthly taxes would solve this, but may cause other problems, or with a flat tax the PLD can effectively apply to locations.  There is no simple solution, but thats why we pay all these taxes in the first place, for our government to figure it out.  At least I hope thats what its for  ;D

Michael O'Leary: you are right.  We don't say anything when its in our benefit, as well as Canadians we don't say anything when there is something wrong.  Not right either way.

Go!!:  Yes first one on the way... very scary!  We wont be here long enough to really benefit from childcare with more than 1 kid, with taking the year off and all.  If we had 2 or3 kids now, BAM what a savings!  Still, that is separate from owing back tax from a move late n the tax year.  If I had 3 kids now, yes i would save lots on the childcare (marginal though, loss of 800/month in income due to income tax), but then I would be bankrupt owing this much in back tax on top of raising 3 kids.  As well kids are a personal choice to have.  It would not be fair to a person having no kids, paying for other peoples child care.  This is another debate for another conversation though.


----------



## GO!!! (31 Dec 2006)

Arron said:
			
		

> Go!!:  Yes first one on the way... very scary!  We wont be here long enough to really benefit from childcare with more than 1 kid, with taking the year off and all.  If we had 2 or3 kids now, BAM what a savings!  Still, that is separate from owing back tax from a move late n the tax year.  If I had 3 kids now, yes i would save lots on the childcare (marginal though, loss of 800/month in income due to income tax), but then I would be bankrupt owing this much in back tax on top of raising 3 kids.



Well, I'll give you the easy solution.

Learn french, only because it's free and it will get you ahead.

Have your child in Quebec, and collect the large "baby bonus" equivalent that they have there.

Don't pay your tax bill. Wait until you are posted out of the bell province   and then it will be deducted from the return you would have gotten. The interest on unpaid income tax is only 5.5%, far less than the rate you will pay with a line of credit. 

Get posted to Alberta, where we take home more, but everything costs more too.


----------

