# Fast track for Immigration by joining the CF



## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

So I read in the news yesterday that the military is trying (once again) to recruit visible minorities into the CF to give a truer picture of the Canadian demographic. I also saw on the national that the immigration people are giving year long work visas to any out of foreign student who studies and graduated from a university in Canada, as long as they resided in  Toronto , Vancouver,and Montreal. Or they could have a two year work Visa if they lived outside those areas.
       
         So here is my thought.

        Why don't we promise to get these people a Canadian citizenship upon joining the military for a set engagement of 3-4 years.

        The benefits of this to the CF would be we would get an educated recruits with a second language ability and would be more in a mindset to understand some of the cultures we are exposing ourselves to in the hot spots of the world.

        The PR would be priceless. If immigrant X comes to the country does 3 years in the military. And then gets out and goes out into society on a good note. Then that person will support the military in the future. And if we start recruiting people that are on a high turn around rate then this will prevent the forces from becoming stagnant.

          It would be a win win for the Canadian Government, The CF and the individuals that choose to enroll.

Just a thought. any comments?


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## Redeye (19 Apr 2005)

I don't like the idea without a great deal of security background checks being in place to ensure we're actually recruiting people who want to serve this country.  The last thing you want is an army full of people who are doing it only to get something out of it their service - meaning their citizenship card just for a few years' work... do you think they'll make good soldiers?  Some, perhaps, but I doubt a lot of them will be motivated to do anything above the bare minimum.


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> I don't like the idea without a great deal of security background checks being in place to ensure we're actually recruiting people who want to serve this country.   The last thing you want is an army full of people who are doing it only to get something out of it their service - meaning their citizenship card just for a few years' work... do you think they'll make good soldiers?   Some, perhaps, but I doubt a lot of them will be motivated to do anything above the bare minimum.



Your right. we just blindly let a lot of people in the country. They would all make bad soldiers. What was I thinking. After all if they are not white and English or french speaking they are all bad, lazy and are self serving.

NOT


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## Gramps (19 Apr 2005)

There are already background checks for new immigrants in this country and further checks for anyone joining the military. For someone to have extra checks done based on Nationality is not practical and seems to lean towards that "R" word that people don't like me to use. Besides to think that there are no people in the forces right now who have questionable pasts or to think that some people in the forces are not involved in questionable behavior is naive. A persons nationality does not make them a suspect of anything.


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## JBP (19 Apr 2005)

> Posted by: Gramps
> Insert Quote
> There are already background checks for new immigrants in this country and further checks for anyone joining the military. For someone to have extra checks done based on Nationality is not practical and seems to lean towards that "R" word that people don't like me to use. Besides to think that there are no people in the forces right now who have questionable pasts or to think that some people in the forces are not involved in questionable behavior is naive. A persons nationality does not make them a suspect of anything.



Although I agree with you, would you say the same think about a person of North Korean blood? Or, say, Bosnian or Croatian? How about Rwandan or Burundi? Better yet, Sudan, Iraqi, and many other middle eastern nations. If we open the floodgates to anyone, we'll be exposing our defense forces to "moles" more easily, and/or direct terrorist attacks. Out of Al-Quada's top enemies, we were listed as 4rth or 5th I think, and we're the only one's who've NOT been hit yet. Everyone else has above the list and below us... That was quoted on here by someone else few months back. It's not IF, it's WHEN. Tamil Tigers? Al-Queda(sp?), any other terrorist organization who has something to gain...

I do believe it's a great idea, and would have many benefits and the likelyhood of a terrorist action happening because of it is low, it could happen.

Seriously think about the idea that you could be sleeping in a "hooch-hotel" with some guy who is fanatically committed to suicide bombing himself and your section to pieces in the middle of the night, or running around and slitting your throats in your sleep with a bayonette/gerber!!!

Maybe slightly paranoid, but just food for thought...

PS> I thought certain countries/nationalities were already on a "watch list" if they apply... They have to go through a much more extensive background check no?


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

R031 Pte Joe you are a bit paranoid. What about an Engineer or the Wpns Tech with ties to the H.A. Or some pimp getting into the CIC staff to recruit some young blood. I thing the chances that you are going to get your a suicide bomber to kill you or your section while on some weekend get-away are slim. 99.999% of people are honest and hard working. You center on the bad and come up with unrealistic barriers. Can you tell a North Korean from a South Korean? Your fears are unjustified and baised on fear.
I take it by your post and picking out different nationalities you do not like and mistrust ethnic's. Have you ever met and Iraqi? A Rawandan? 
In my travels they are all people. and should be treated as such.


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## Gramps (19 Apr 2005)

R031 Pte Joe 

That has to be one of the most paranoid and ridiculous statements. Have you ever met anyone from any of the countries you had listed? I have and I will tell you one thing, to make assumptions about people based on their country of origin and their ethnic or religious background is just plain RACIST!! and I will not apologise for using that word. I have done a fair amount of travelling both with work and as a tourist, I have met people from around the globe, and I have yet to meet a suicide bomber or a hardline communist heathen who wants to blow me up because of my nationality.


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## Redeye (19 Apr 2005)

Whoa, whoa...   I never said anything about singling out applicants from any particular nation or ethnic origin, nor did I mention race anywhere!   I also did not say that all immigrants would make poor soldiers.   Watch your arcs more closely.   The fact is that the military personnel selection process has to be designed to ensure that those who enter the CF are motivated to become effective soldiers, sailors, or airmen who are committed to the purpose and ethos of the CF - not individuals who are looking to join to get to the front of the immigration line, get their tickets punched, and leave.

There are some people who would benefit from a program such as this, but I don't really see it being a productive program - the time it takes to conduct all the background checks for both the CF and CIC (that's Citizenship and Immigration Canada) is long enough that I can't really see any benefit to an immigrant in terms of time saved.


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

Well they are going to be here for three to four years finishing a university degree first. So the checks could be done then.
And the application process would hopefully weed out the ticket punchers.


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## Gramps (19 Apr 2005)

And there are no people in the forces right now who are just here to get their ticket punched? I have seen and worked for many "Ticket Punchers" and they were all born in Canada.


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## Britney Spears (19 Apr 2005)

I agree with Redeye, and I'm an immigrant myself. The aim of any recruitment campaign should be to produce good soldiers, any other objective (" to better reflect Canada's demographic profile", etc) can only mean bad things. 

Also, one should keep in mind that there are good social/cultural reasons why immigrants fron third world nations do not join the CF in large numbers. Very few third world nations have professional armies that command the same kind of standing in society as Canada/US/UK.  Even amongst educated subsects of the immigrant population, you are likely to find very few prospective recruits. There's definitly a cultural gap which will be very difficult to bridge.

Bottom line is that an immigrant who has an interest in pursuing a CF career most likely has a good idea of what they are getting themselves into already, and will do so without any kind of special targeted recruiting effort. The best thing we should be doing is streamlining to application proccess. If you native Canadians think the recruiting system is broken, well you didn't have to go through an additional 3-6 month security clearance proccess.


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## Redeye (19 Apr 2005)

Gramps said:
			
		

> And there are no people in the forces right now who are just here to get their ticket punched? I have seen and worked for many "Ticket Punchers" and they were all born in Canada.



We all have, that's true.   The selection process is far from perfect, no one, immigrant or otherwise, should be able to join for that reason.

mover1, you are referring, then, to making this offer to foreign students who are here as a means of getting permanent residence and eventually citizenship in Canada?   That might be a means of filling some skilled trandes, and would mean that the applicants would have some adaptation to Canadian life.   That's not such a bad idea.   That's more context than you gave in your original post.

The brass apparently keep an eye on this webite, maybe they'll agree with you. Watch and shoot.


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## Island Ryhno (19 Apr 2005)

I think enticing someone into our forces just so they can immigrate is a bad idea. Sure there are "Ticket Punchers" everywhere, it's a fact of life but when they joined it was voluntarily. I believe Mover1 that you are insinuating that if you don't do the military time then you can't get in the country (please correct me if I'm wrong) and that wouldn't work, forcing people to choose the forces would make for some very disgruntled people. Also about the immigration stuff, we like to believe that we have these strenuous background checks etc, has any of you heard of the Khadrs? Our country is wide open to immigrants and it's good and bad, we get lots of people who end up being doctors or lawyers or business owners or whatever and contribute greatly to this country. However it is inevitable that if you open the doors to the military there will be some fanatics come through, the numbers would just be against us. And however small a number it might be, the result would be devastating to the forces and the country. To the insinuation that there is some good in everyone, well I haven't met everyone.


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

Redeye thats exactly what I was aiming for. The last nights story on the national gave that exact slant. Think of new citizen who immedeately gives something back to his new country. It would be something that more Canadians would give back in their entire lifetimes. I belive it would be a Win Win situation. Plus it would expose the new immigrants to a wider cross section of canadian society.


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## 48Highlander (19 Apr 2005)

This discussion's rather pointless.   Right now you need to be a citizen in order to join the military.   That's a security regulation that was only implemented a few years ago; before that landed immigrants were allowed to join.   In other words, if the CF recently implemented a regulation that says not even landed immigrants are allowed to join, how likely are the higher ups to suddenly do a 180 and let in foreign nationals without even that much status?   It's not gonna happen.   Theorize all you like, but there's absolutely no way it'll be done, and I think the security concerns brought up by Joe and Redeye are a good reason not to let it happen.


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## Recce41 (19 Apr 2005)

We have too many loosers now, that join the military for an free ride. When I applied to join the British Army, even though my mother was English. Father served with the British Army for a time. I have an uncle who was a Col with the British Army, and would sign for me. I had to WORK for 3 months in England, just to apply. 
 Now, we have "well I like Canada and I want stay", Join the Military and we will let you, that easy. BS.


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

be a Canadian citizen; 
Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country. 


Rules can be changed look at the fitness standard


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## 48Highlander (19 Apr 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Rules can be changed look at the fitness standard



Ugh.  Yeah, they can change, but that's one that never should have.  And this is another.  Being in the Canadian military is a privilidge in and of itself, it should never be a means to an end.  You want to boost recruiting?  Give out pamphlets and videos as part of an immigration package.  That's about as far as it should go.


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

Your right. When my great-grandfather moved here in 1897 he should have never been given the privilege to join the Canadian Army in the first world war. He was never a citizen of this country but he fought its wars. We should at least have a retainer on people blood lines before they join. maybe by about one or two generations should be born here to ensure they are truly Canadian. 

Get real.


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## 48Highlander (19 Apr 2005)

I don't know what sort of object you've got wedged in your nether-region, but take a breath and relax.   I never suggested that immigrants shouldn't be allowed to join.   I stated that joining the CF should not be a means to an end.   If they wish to have a career in the military, great.   If they want to serve out of loyalty to the country that took them in, even better.   But letting immigrants join is TOTALY different from giving people citizenship for serving.   Landed immigrants can ALREADY get citizenship:   all they have to do is wait 3 years and pass a test.   So the only ones taking your offer would be who?   People either living overseas, or those here on a visitors/students/workers visa.   Now, why in the hell would you want people in the military who only joined because you told them it was a way to get or stay in the country?   I'm sure you'll get lots of recruits that way; the ones who don't qualify to live here any other way.   If immigration turned them away, there's probably a good reason for it.   Why should we take 'em?

And before you start playing the poor-little-immigrant card again, I wasn't born in Canada either.  I got my citizenship legitemately and joined the military because it's something I knew I'd enjoy, and because I wanted to do something for the nation that gave me a chance to do something with my life.  Would I have joined if they had offered me a chance to earn my citizenship that way?  Sure, but I deffinitely wouldn't have felt any sense of loyalty, nor would I have stayed in for more than the bare minimum of time.


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## muskrat89 (19 Apr 2005)

mover1 - please curb your tone, just a tad. Between "get real" and calling someone "a tard" on another thread, you're tiptoeing along the edge of the Conduct Guidelines... for someone so eager to be inclusive, you don't seem to apply that attitude, when they disagree with you

Thanks in advance


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

Sorry about the tone. I will be nice. 

Just a side bar on the he said she said lets get nasty talk I was generating and getting back on topic. 
Does anyone know what the U.S. military policy is on  this exact same issue?


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## 48Highlander (19 Apr 2005)

You need to have a green-card to join the US mil.  Same policy that we had 3-4 years ago.


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## JBP (19 Apr 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> R031 Pte Joe you are a bit paranoid. What about an Engineer or the Wpns Tech with ties to the H.A. Or some pimp getting into the CIC staff to recruit some young blood. I thing the chances that you are going to get your a suicide bomber to kill you or your section while on some weekend get-away are slim. 99.999% of people are honest and hard working. You center on the bad and come up with unrealistic barriers. Can you tell a North Korean from a South Korean? Your fears are unjustified and baised on fear.
> I take it by your post and picking out different nationalities you do not like and mistrust ethnic's. Have you ever met and Iraqi? A Rawandan?
> In my travels they are all people. and should be treated as such.



Did you folks read my post??? I SAID I think it would be a great idea... Yes, I AGREED with you folks it might be a good idea for recruiting. I didn't touch on anything else like "would they make a good soldier"... I picked out the valid POSSIBLE threats and pointed them out. I didn't say they WOULD happen, in fact, I didn't say I thought they'd happen, I said they probably COULD happen and more likely too IF we use an incentive like that. I mentioned it's highly unlikely that it would ever happen in that way, on a weekend EX. Will Canada be subject to some kind of terrorist attack in the next 10 years? I would slate 70% yes, at some point, somehow... Whether it's a small event or large, who knows. So far we've thwarted all attempts, eg> Guys in downtown TO taking pictures or certain buildings/TARGETS where many people are everyday. They got caught, although I don't know any other details. People ARE actively trying to find ways to kill and/or terrorize fellow Canadians and/or soldiers.... If you people don't realize that then why are you in the forces? Sure many countries abroad view Canada as a great peaceful giant, but some want our blood. 

Again, I didn't attack any race or country specifically, I mentioned/pointed out some of the nations that probably don't love us, or would have citizens that would wish us ill fate. Just a couple. Relax... 

Grow a skin! Read a post!  : I wasn't being racist... I'm the farthest thing from it.

PS> I've met people from Lebanon, Sudan, Rwanda and Burundi, a Kurdish Iraqi, other mid-east people, talked with them at length about politics and the USA+Canada. Also others from many other countries, I've been proud to meet them and represent Canada to a new immigrant or citizen, I've met them due to my last job. So you folks don't need to talk to me about immigrants, I've met MANY over the last 3 years...

PPS> Sorry if I somehow offended anyone by pointing out possible threats/flaws in your perfect new immigration policy. I'm done with this thread.


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## Danjanou (19 Apr 2005)

No, we should not be catering to immigrants who wish to serve their new adopted country. Next thing you know they'll be demanding their own units based on their ethnic traditions and dress, like Scottish and Irish units..... :

Seriously as in most issues there are pros and cons to this debate. IIRC the US used to have a policy that gave points towards citizenship for military service. Their Special Forces made extensive use of it in the 1950's to recruit Eastern Europeans who in turn would be familiar with their potential are of operations should the cold war turn hot.

In the late 1980's early 1990's the reserve rifle coy in Toronto (A Coy Toronto Scottish) I was CSM of had more than it's fair share of recent immigrants in our ranks. For the most part they struck me as more motivated that the norm. Sure a lot were there for a specific reason, money for education and saw it as a survival job for 3-4 years tops. Then again how many can that be said about the Militia in general.

I saw some advantages in them as have already been touched on here by others. I had quite a few troops who were multi lingual, including in languages that matched potential deployment areas. The neat thing about refugees is that they're often coming from places we end up deploying to ( Haiti, Bosnia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Rwanda etc) or may deploy to (Guatemala, Colombia, Zimbabwe, Sudan etc). In addition some of the older â Å“recruitsâ ? had already done their national service prior to emigrating. Now one can argue re the quality of said third world military training, but in the end it was a bonus as is any prior experience. Included in that was the fact that I knew I had a couple of senior Ptes who had already played on the two way range, and therefore knew what it was like and could if needed pass on that experience/expertise.

On the downside like any Government sanctioned policy if this was considered and brought in then it could be open to abuse as has already been noted. With our political masters and the army of bureaucrats (uniformed and civy) who would inevitably (mis)manage such a program, there would be the potential for the lowering of standards and therefore combat capability. A specific program to target them to achieve some PC rainbow effect has the potential for a disaster, and should be carefully considered prior to any action taken.

In the end, recent immigrants, like those born here will choose, or not choose to join the CF. Perhaps a more important consideration would be to ensure that they are no extra barriers put in place for those who wish to serve. Let's face it there's enough problems with recruiting now as it is.


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## mover1 (19 Apr 2005)

Wow that was a really good and balanced response.


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## big_johnson1 (19 Apr 2005)

One thing to keep in mind that the US military has both sides of the coin. On one hand there are members of the US military that are proudly muslim and proudly serve the US, while on the other hand there are caucasian military members who have been snagged for being sympathetic to Al-Qaeda. I think even with the most stringent guidelines we are going to find that the occasional bad apple slips through the cracks, and again, the occasional outstanding individual may be kept from serving for a stupid reason. If you want to keep this country and it's military free of people who harbour ill-will towards us, maybe we should kick all the germans out, since Hitler did try to take over the world once. Think about that before you judge every muslim you see.


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## TCBF (20 Apr 2005)

First off: Mover 1 - nicce picture of the M548.  Yes, they are fun.  They burn nice, too. (Lahr joke).

In principle, I see nothing wrong with targeted recruiting including immigrants.  Australia does it.  I am against a federal govt program however, because they would no doubt screw it up by ONLY allowing us to recruit people who lack English or French, education, an understanding of and sympathy for our culture, good health, etc,

In other words, the values we base our selectoin on would become secondary to the govts targetted values (look different).

So, I would not start a program where the options would inevitably and rapidly become directives.

Tom


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## mover1 (22 Apr 2005)

Tom did you set the north Marg on fire?


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## TCBF (22 Apr 2005)

No. 

  I was brought in under the new management after the evicted tenants tried to melt the HQ Sqn lines in some drug addled Dungeons and Dragoons game run amok, where some young offenders in crewsuits thought the Baader-Meinhof gang should be re-incarnated by tripped out crewmen on chemicals.

Tom


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## DJ (23 Apr 2005)

There is a debate I've heard condemning Canada's recruitment of educated people from the developing regions in the Global South, basically saying that it's a selfish measure that does more harm than good by hindering the development of lesser developed countries.  I was wondering what others thought of this argument in relation to this post...

DJ


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## Edward Campbell (23 Apr 2005)

DJ said:
			
		

> There is a debate I've heard condemning Canada's recruitment of educated people from the developing regions in the Global South, basically saying that it's a selfish measure that does more harm than good by hindering the development of lesser developed countries.  I was wondering what others thought of this argument in relation to this post...
> 
> DJ



First, it is broadly true; we further weaken poor countries, increasing their dependency on _*our *charity_ (aid) when we hire away their doctors and engineers.

But, _*second*_, some countries, not the poorest of the poor, of course, have a real surplus of well educated, sophisticated people who are chafing under a lack of socio-economic opportunity in their homes.  Those countries - China and India, most notably - want many of these people (in whom they (the Chinese and Indian people/governments) have invested heavily) to leave, lest they ferment discontent and unrest at home.

It is generally true that migrants retain close ties with their homelands.  Those hundreds of thousands of well educated, sophisticated and entrepreneurial Chinese and Indians who move to (mainly) Australia and North America provide a _conduit_ through which new trade and commerce flows (but some would say that conduit is, really, a _fifth column_).

I'm going to digress a bit, hoping this will stay within topic.

We must, first of all recognize, that there is a fundamental difference between refugees and our refugee policy, on one hand, and migrants and our immigration policy on the other.

We, like all civilized countries, have a moral duty to help those who are fleeing imminent threats to life and limb.  Most refugees, in most places, want to return home.  Our main refugee efforts should be aimed at:

"¢	Reducing the *need* to flee by preventing the sorts of political disasters which plague places like Somalia and Haiti.  This means that countries like Canada should help to form an lead _coalitions_ to implement Pink Lloyd Axworthy's _human security_ and _responsibility to protect_ doctrines by armed intervention into the internal affairs of _failing_ (and failed) states; and

"¢	Helping to settle, house feed and employ refugees near their homes - obviating the requirements for them to leave the area and become caught in the web of Canadian refugee determination and sporadic welfare and rule breaking.

 Our immigration policy should be 99%, self serving.  We should aim to recruit and retain the people we want - not just those who want to come here.  We should, the other 1%, eschew recruiting people from the poorest-of-the-poor - we should, in fact (as another policy aim) try to improve the education and opportunities in those desperately poor nations by building local schools and staffing them with as many Canadian (well) paid locals as possible and funding local businesses and enterprises - even those which compete, as they will, with e.g. highly protected, heavily unionized, Québec based textile mills.

Just as an example, I would close most (say 3/4) immigration offices in Africa, the Caribbean and Latin America and reduce the remainder, plus all the ones in Europe, to half staff.  I would open many new immigration offices in China, India and the (to a lesser extent) the Malaysia and the Philippines and I would double the staff in most Asian offices.  Then we might get 300,000 of the educated, productive, easily integrated immigrants we want and need, including as members of the Canadian Forces, - and their parents, too (who, traditionally, look after the children while both men and women work, hard).


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## Enzo (25 Apr 2005)

I was in the UK for the past few months training with members of the British Army (BA). They were quite vocal about this subject. They mentioned that the capabilities of the BA had suffered recently due to large scale recruitment of people from Commonwealth member nations (primarily Fiji and Jamaica). The primary concern lay with communication and dedication to the trade, etc... The feeling was that this was an avenue to make money before returning to their homeland, etc... and that the BA was worse off for it.

This is what was conveyed to me over beers, I've not seen any statistics or discussed this with any officers or bureaucrats, etc... The opinions of enlisted rank pers and I'm willing to bet that racial and personal bias are a factor. In addition, it's also too easy to lay the blame, etc...

This seemed relevant to the thread, not my personal opinion as I haven't any experience with the BA or it's personnel.

In my opinion, I've known many dogf***ers in the CF and have lots of stories, as many of us do I'm certain. Most have been Canadians. The only guy in our unit who was a recent Canadian citizen at the time was from Macedonia. He was quite laid back and didn't mind taking the easy road, especially in training. He walked the line when it came to the regs and was almost insubordinate on a daily basis, with a smile. The thing is, he was inducted into the Yugoslavian army one night when he was 17 and participated in that little side show. He felt that the CF Infantry was a joke compared to the training he received in Europe due primarily to what was going on, but he enjoyed that aspect. He basically meant that we weren't killing each other in training and implied all the other things you can imagine that went on over there. He was a combat veteran and was seriously wounded (nasty scar). He was fine with never shooting at another person again and was aiming to be a driver for an officer (figured his linguistic skills would get him that assignment). Felt that being in the CF was a better option than flipping burgers.

I considered myself to be a professional soldier at the time and worked hard to be such. He and I came at the trade with two different goals in mind, but I really liked the guy and learned some things from him. At the end of the day, I don't know where to go with this, so I'm just trying to type it up and see where it takes me.

I hope this wasn't too useless to the thread. Cheers...


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## CougarKing (8 Jan 2007)

While I watching CTV's news segment today, I saw an unusual headline on the usual news ticker that shows the short form of the day's top headlines. Unless my eyes have failed me, I distinctly remember the headline stating:

"DUTCH CF-18 PILOT GETS FAST TRACK TO CITIZENSHIP"

If I am not mistaken, from reading all the previous responses in this thread, no landed immigrants can join the CF unless they have a skill which the CF is in badly in need of, such as doctors or possibly speakers of Pashto, one of the native languages of Afghanistan. They must be citizens to join.

Still, I ran a search on the headline on this site and found nothing and ran a search on the CTV site and googled it and still found no further references to it. 

If this story does prove true however, I would be baffled that they would even allow a landed immigrant who's not yet a citizen into the cockpit of a CF-18! Isn't it a landed immigrant who is able to get into the CF at all can't become an officer as well- only an NCM? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, even if the Dutch pilot was taken because he had a "skill in need of by the CF", how'd he get F-18 training if the RNLAF only has F-16s?

I thought this was the best place to post my reaction to this rather unusual headline.

 ??? Any thoughts?


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## Shamrock (8 Jan 2007)

Link here.


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## CougarKing (8 Jan 2007)

Thanks for the link. I did a search on the CTV website earlier and it wasn't there when I did look.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Jan 2007)

CougarKing said:
			
		

> If this story does prove true however, I would be baffled that they would even allow a landed immigrant who's not yet a citizen into the cockpit of a CF-18! Isn't it a landed immigrant who is able to get into the CF at all can't become an officer as well- only an NCM? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Also, even if the Dutch pilot was taken because he had a "skill in need of by the CF", how'd he get F-18 training if the RNLAF only has F-16s?



When you do an exchange posting, you receive the necessary training for the position you occupy.



> His story began Jan. 31, 1999, when he arrived in Canada as an *exchange pilot* from the Royal Netherlands Air Force, based in Cold Lake, Alta. A Dutch colleague who had earlier been posted to Canada had sung the country's praises, urging him to go.


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## Globesmasher (9 Jan 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> When you do an exchange posting, you receive the necessary training for the position you occupy.



That's exactly true - he did an exchange tour with us up in Cold Lake - and we welcome him back warmly.  A great guy .... and since we are so darned short of pilots right now (as is every trade in every CF branch) he is basically "free" for us .... no public costs to train him.  It is refreshing to see some common sense prevail by fats tracking someone like this .... granted all due diligence should be accorded, but I would hate to see him turned down simply because of "bureaucratic formalities".

On the flip side of the coin we have had numerous RAF exchange Navigators from the UK serve with us on CC-130 squadrons in Trenton.  They have tried the same thing as our Dutch friend, only to be repeatedly turned down - I guess the Nav trade perhaps is not as undermanned as the pilot trade.  Some have tried to simply emigrate back to Canada, while others have tried to emigrate and enroll in the CF as a Nav ..... both avenues have failed for them.


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## dapaterson (9 Jan 2007)

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> I guess the Nav trade perhaps is not as undermanned as the pilot trade.



Or perhaps it's the pilots who run the Air Force, and look after their own?


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## bcbarman (9 Jan 2007)

When I was working the recruiting center, the rules came down that the COS can grant a waiver for very specific skills: Doctors, Pilots, etc.  I tried to get a skilled Stoker in and they pretty much told me that the reserves will never see that waiver, so buddy is going to have to wait.

On the flip side, landed immigrants were allowed in the reserves before '03, it was just necessary for them to get citizenship in 3 years.  I have a feeling that we will be revisiting that avenue soon, at least for NCM's in the reserve.  The catch is that these individuals were not deployable.  

The US has a similar system to recruit landed immigrants, a watch and shoot thing.


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## geo (9 Jan 2007)

bcbar...
Yes, going back several years, individuals who were landed immigrants could be enrolled as ORs.  You have always had to be a Citzen of Canada to become an officer


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## CougarKing (10 Jan 2007)

> You have always had to be a Citizen of Canada to become an officer.



Geo,

So you're telling me that if a landed immigrant is a DOCTOR with an MD from his home country, upon his enrollment since he has a skill the CF needs, he will STILL be an NCM just because he's not yet a citizen? So we introduce a doctor MOC for NCMs? Or is that doctor just placed in the Medical Technician MOC/Nurse MOC for the time being until he gets his citizenship, thus qualifying him to become a medical officer later?


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## observor 69 (10 Jan 2007)

CougarKing said:
			
		

> Geo,
> 
> So you're telling me that if a landed immigrant is a DOCTOR with an MD from his home country, upon his enrollment since he has a skill the CF needs, he will STILL be an NCM just because he's not yet a citizen? So we introduce a doctor MOC for NCMs? Or is that doctor just placed in the Medical Technician MOC/Nurse MOC for the time being until he gets his citizenship, thus qualifying him to become a medical officer later?



First things first.... this landed immigrant must have his foreign medical training recognized by Canadian medical authorities if he wants to work as a MD in Canada. Check out the cab driver/pizza delivery people in TO.


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## niner domestic (10 Jan 2007)

Wait, wasn't foreign university accreditation an election campaign topic? Didn't Harper promise that highly skilled Landed Immigrants would have their accreditations sped up to get them working in their respective fields faster?  What happened to that?


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## GAP (10 Jan 2007)

We'll have to wait for Monty Solberg to get up to speed or ask Diane Finlay what she did.


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## CougarKing (10 Jan 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> First things first.... this landed immigrant must have his foreign medical training recognized by Canadian medical authorities if he wants to work as a MD in Canada. Check out the cab driver/pizza delivery people in TO.



Baden_Guy

Well say his foreign medical degree is finally recognized after review and testing by the proper authorities, what then, if he still wants to pursue the CF enrollment? Will he become an NCM with a new "Doctor's MOC" or will he be put in the Medical Technician/Nurse MOC? Just curious, that's all. I can't imagine any doctor as an NCM (no offence meant to all the NCMs on this board), although any landed immigrant with the skill that the CF needs won't be able to become an officer until they satisfy their 3-year residency requirement to become a citizen.


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## kincanucks (10 Jan 2007)

CougarKing said:
			
		

> Baden_Guy
> 
> Well say his foreign medical degree is finally recognized after review and testing by the proper authorities, what then, if he still wants to pursue the CF enrollment? Will he become an NCM with a new "Doctor's MOC" or will he be put in the Medical Technician/Nurse MOC? Just curious, that's all. I can't imagine any doctor as an NCM (no offence meant to all the NCMs on this board), although any landed immigrant with the skill that the CF needs won't be able to become an officer until they satisfy their 3-year residency requirement to become a citizen.



What the hell are you babbling about?  Doctors and Nurses are officers.  If the medical degree is recognized then the applicant can be processed.


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## George Wallace (10 Jan 2007)

If this keeps up and it spirals anymore, it will become a RADIO CHATTER topic.


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## dapaterson (10 Jan 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Wait, wasn't foreign university accreditation an election campaign topic? Didn't Harper promise that highly skilled Landed Immigrants would have their accreditations sped up to get them working in their respective fields faster?  What happened to that?


Keep in mind that many of the professions are under provincial regulation - the bar, doctors, engineers... the Federal government has limited leverage in those areas of provincial jurisdiciton.  And the provincial agencies look out for the interests of their members, not necessarily society as a whole - keeping a tight supply of professionals in their field permits them to inflate their rates.

Or is that too cynical?


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## CougarKing (10 Jan 2007)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> What the hell are you babbling about?  Doctors and Nurses are officers.  If the medical degree is recognized then the applicant can be processed.



Kincanuks,

What I am saying is that if the degree is recognized BEFORE the applicant gets their citizenship, then will they be able to become Medical Officers/Nursing Officers without becoming a Canadian citizen first? It was mentioned earlier that one must be a Canadian citizen first before becoming an officer. (A landed immigrant must satisfy the 3 year residency requirement before they can take the citizenship test)

So I am pointing at the uniqueness of the dilemma- their degree is recognized BUT BEFORE the applicant is a citizen, so how will they proceed? As I said, will you make a doctor an NCM just because they're NOT yet a citizen yet? I am not insulting you here- just pointing out this possible scenario.


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## geo (10 Jan 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Wait, wasn't foreign university accreditation an election campaign topic? Didn't Harper promise that highly skilled Landed Immigrants would have their accreditations sped up to get them working in their respective fields faster?  What happened to that?



Harper might have said it BUT, the professional orders are the agencies that will decide yea or nay to acreditation.

FWIW, individuals trained in the UK or the US usually get an okie dokie from the orders but those from eastern europe, south east asia, etc have to take years of make up courses, internships, the works before being allowed to practice their occupation.


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## geo (10 Jan 2007)

cougarking, 
If you go back to my post, I said that this was the situation some years ago.
ORs= landed Immigrants Offrs = Citzens.

HOWEVER

rules changed and then everyone had to be a citzen..... and that is pert much where we stand today..... unless we realy, realy need the person.


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## aesop081 (10 Jan 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> cougarking,
> unless we realy, realy need the person.



......and that, IIRC, no Canadian can fill the position


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## niner domestic (10 Jan 2007)

Geo, my understanding was the Harper said he would provide additional funding to the agencies that provide the assessments and accreditation (he especially wanted to speed up the process for medical doctors) as the wait time depending on the country and education and/or skill could take up to 3-4 years to complete - lack of bodies on the ground to process and make the calls were blamed. Part of the immigration process is submitting to the feds, affirmation that the degree or skill being claimed is in fact recognized by a Canadian regulatory body (whether provincial or federal).  The issue I believe, was that the process created a catch-22 for the applicant.  One had to wait it out for the assessment to address the skill or education but were not guaranteed that the regulatory body would accept the quals - hence the PEng, MDs etc, driving cabs.  Their education was assessed in their favour to get them into the country but the actual ability to use their skills were dependent on satisfying the regulatory bodies.  


 http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/work-3.html


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## geo (10 Jan 2007)

yup, Catch 22

so far, I have not heard the Fed Gov't adressing any of this issue.

One of the most notorious is the Medical society in each province.  They look down on medical degrees that are not Cdn, US or UK validated.  I know that there have been horror stories coming out of the old Soviet Union.  True or not - they have feed the rumour mill and the MDs took a stand that, to my knowledge, they have not revised.

I know of one lady, Russian trained MD, she & family emigrated, she & hubby both worked as stock room clerks for two years.  They bought some rental property & then, she went back to Univ for internship as MD.... I think it took her a total of 5 or 6 yrs from the time they immigrated for her to be practicing again.


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jan 2007)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> ......and that, IIRC, no Canadian can fill the position



Or the guy is already qualified

Max


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Jan 2007)

I don't know about you but I'm in no flippin' hurry to have some "Doctor" with some third world matchbook degree just waltzing in and becoming a "Doctor" here..............a few years in our school system sounds about right to me.


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