# A Year In, And Frustrated



## toyotatundra

First off, I know that there are some people who use internet forums to berate and ridicule others. Please spare me any moral lectures or personal attacks. I am going to lay out my situation without false humility. I am interested in constructive suggestions only.

My story. I applied for Reserve Officer last year and was rejected despite having a degree. I applied for Reserve NCM and was accepted. I reapplied for promotion to officer this year and was told they don't think I have the necessary leadership skills.

I am an older candidate, in my late 20s. Rightly or wrongly, it is clear that my pre-military work history is being held against me. 

There are many 21 or 22 year olds being accepted for officer cadet positions. I can say objectively that I am smarter than most of them, and that I have valuable life experience that they lack. I am not being arrogant in this. I am not stronger or better looking or more popular with women than the average applicant. But I am more intelligent and wise.

Until now, the plan has been to do my duties as an NCM, and hopefully impress with improved leadership skills. However, it seems that NCM applicants to DEO/CT are put up to a higher standard than civilian DEO or ROTP applicants. College age kids are to a large degree a blank slate. Experienced NCMs have a track record. In a perfect world, this inequality would be balanced in the minds of promotion officials. However  this does not appear to be the case. 

This concern over track records is a central issue because CF definitions of leadership appear inherently subjective. Success on a firing range can be objectively measured. Running speed and push up ability can be quantified. But leadership cannot.

I am fine with being passed over for a position because I cannot meet a tangible standard, like eyesight or degree type. However, being held back for subjective reasons is quite demoralizing.

I want to excel in the Forces. However I do not want to be trapped as a perpetual NCM, under the command of college age students who I am smarter than. I realize that I made a mistake in accepting an NCM position when my real desire is officer.  However, there doesn't seem to be a clear way out of this bind.

If I continue as an NCM, I will face the extra obstacles which come with component transfer and special commissioning. If I release from the Forces, and reapply later for DEO, my military experience will still be there to be picked through.

The personnel selection system can be rather exasperating.


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## cupper

The fact that you expected to be accepted into a leadership position with only a year of experience in a reserve unit underscores the lack of leadership skills which they were referring to. Although assessing one's ability to lead troops in whatever task is presented may seem subjective from your perspective, the people who do the assessing have the experience and knowledge to accurately judge who does and who does not possess the qualities a leader must possess. And as for being lead all your career by young college graduates, at some point you need to realize that these junior officers are in the same position you are currently in, and are still learning about the trade, the CF in general, and all the other things one need to perform the tasks assigned.

There is a reason that NCM's go through a process to become junior leaders, then senior leaders and so on. It's because they put in the time and effort, learned what they need to to learn, and did the job. Leaders stood out because they had certain qualities that made others listen to them, work with them, and seek out their help, wisdom and knowledge. The powers that be noticed this and gave them the opportunities to prove themselves.

News flash.... It's the same process that officers go through as well.

Not meant to be harsh, but if you wanted to be an officer, you should have kept trying, looking for other positions in other units or other branches.


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## kawa11

As a civilian observer, is it not possible that they just don't think you have the leadership skills like they said?

Maybe your education, training and previous work experience are not factors they are weighing against you.

(Is there perhaps some instance where you were given more responsibility and ****ered it up? Maybe a self awareness issue you've overlooked?)

Have you asked the people who stated they, "don't think I have the necessary leadership skills" to possibly clarify or expand on that thought?


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## Pusser

What you are experiencing is indeed frustrating, but not at all uncommon.  If ask around or even search this forum, you will see that it is indeed easier to become an officer straight off the street than from within the CF.  Rightly or wrongly, this seems to be the reality.  Unfortunately, you've answered your own question without realizing it.  Yes, the younger ones are blank slate and the theory is that they can be moulded into effective leaders.  And yes, you do have a track record that will be scrutinized and possibly held against you.  In short, it's better to have nothing than to have something that they're not looking for.

You don't mention what your pre-military work history is, but if it's in a "blue-collar" field (for lack of a better term) than it is likely that would affect your application in that a trained mechanic, even if he is a shop foreman, would be seen as a "hands-on" type of person and thus steered toward the NCM stream.  At the same time a kid in university who was the captain of his high school hockey team will be lauded for his proven leadership skills and the fact that he is already in the "white-collar" realm.

Is this fair?  Does it work?  It's hard to say in all cases, but experience has shown this approach to be reasonably accurate.  There are of course exceptions to everything.

Is it subjective?  Absolutely!  However, keep in mind that the people making these subjective assessments have a great deal of experience and are qualified to make these kinds of decisions.  I've seen many people do well in objective assessments, but who can't lead a two man rush to a six-hole outhouse.  Building the trust of your peers, subordinates and superiors is unfortunately a very subjective game.

How do you fix this?  Keep in mind that you have only been in for a year and you haven't really had a chance to prove your leadership skills.  You are still better off than the guy who hasn't enrolled yet because you've already passed that first hurdle.  However, you did lose the officer lottery, so now you have to work a little harder.  The key now is to work hard and excel at what you do.  Be a team player (we're big on that).  Most importantly, you need to excel on your leadership training.  This will prove to your chain of command that you have leadership skills.  Keep also in mind that if you progress to sergeant, you will become eligible for commissioning from the ranks.

Most importantly of all, you need to watch the attitude.  Walking around thinking you're smarter than everyone else is not going to help you.  You don't even have to say it.  If you think it, people will notice it.  I've known many career corporals who thought they were the smartest guys in the room.


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## medicineman

I'm going to take a stab at something here.  First off, IMHO as a Senior NCO, whether you like it or not, you're coming off as arrogant and even worse, like you've got some sense of entitlement.  Having a degree doesn't mean a lick at your ability to be an officer - it's just a requirement the government has decreed is a must have these days.  I'm willling to bet there is an undertone of attitude coming out in your interviews that might be affecting your chances at climbing into the Officer's Mess.  I know lots of NCO's with degrees incidentally, and when I was a Reservist, most of the people I was a Pte/Cpl with had degrees or were in University - the Reserves put money in our bank accounts to help pay our tuition.  Also, the ones that thought that because they had a degree and were smarter than others, were almost universally rejected for officer training.

Now here is something constructive - you say you're wiser and maybe even smarter than the officers that are being put in command over you...guess what, the vast majority of us 30 or 40 something year olds here that are Junior or Senior NCO's have or did have platoon/troop commanders that are half their age.  Their job is to use their older person's wisdom and life experience to mentor and mold their young Lt's - so put your age, life experience and smarts to use and mentor the young'ens, and not just the officers/OCdts, but also your NCM's and Junior NCO's.  You'll probably find that this will be noticed and reflect better on the perceptions people have of you.   Something else - one of the principles of leadership is to seek and accept responsibility - so volunteer for something that requires you to take charge of a situation and people and get it done.  Could be something like the Unit Christmas party or a family day or whatever - just show that you can organize things and get them done.  Again, perceptions will change.  And if you still are having problems getting a commission, well, we need smart people at the operator level.

Hope that helps.

MM


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## Container

Obviously, when you first applied they determined that you lacked the required leadership skills. But then now that you went ahead and joined you feel that applicants on the street have it easier than you do- it cant be both. Its either too easy to walk in off the street and join as an officer, and you still failed, or the system works at screening applicants to a degree.

Now you are in as an NCM with lots of opportunities to demonstrate leadership but bemoan it for being too subjective. I assure you that leadership is not. It may not be noticed all the time but its absence is blatantly obvious- you seem to suffer from the latter.


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## kawa11

Pusser said:
			
		

> it's better to have nothing than to have something that they're not looking for.


That brings back some memories. I couldn't apply for Cook originally. 

They were only hiring people who hadn't been to college for culinary yet.
Apparently, my 2 diplomas and years of experience meant I was not qualified, yet some person off the street who had never set foot in a kitchen was  :


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## vhaust

True leadership reveals during bad times, i.e. real war and being on the losing side.
The rest are just religiously hypothetical. :2c:


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## Michael OLeary

vhaust said:
			
		

> True leadership reveals during bad times, i.e. real war and being on the losing side.
> The rest are just religiously hypothetical. :2c:



Vague philosophical musings do not make credible contributions to debate or discussion. If you have nothing concrete to offer, refraining from responding is also an acceptable option.


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## aesop081

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I applied for Reserve Officer last year and was rejected despite having a degree.



Having a degree is only *one* aspect of selection.



> I reapplied for promotion to officer this year and was told they don't think I have the necessary leadership skills.



This is an assessment that the chain of command is more than capable of making.



> it is clear that my pre-military work history is being held against me.



Interesting that you failed to mention what that "history" was.............



> I am smarter than most of them,



Of course you are.



> But I am more intelligent and wise.



I knew everything in my 20s too.



> Until now, the plan has been to do my duties as an NCM, and hopefully impress with improved leadership skills.



Judging by the fact that you were rejected, you failed to impress.



> because CF definitions of leadership appear inherently subjective.



Anyone's definition of leadership will be subjective.



> But leadership cannot.



Only correct thing you have posted thus far.



> being held back for subjective reasons is quite demoralizing.



With only a year in, you lack the experience to realize that all personnel assessments are subjective and that it will come into play at all ranks throughout your career.


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## vhaust

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Vague philosophical musings do not make credible contributions to debate or discussion. If you have nothing concrete to offer, refraining from responding is also an acceptable option.



My bad, I am just trying to take a neutral stance with this fellow poster because I saw stabbing posts against him.


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## Pieman

> However, it seems that NCM applicants to DEO/CT are put up to a higher standard than civilian DEO or ROTP applicants.


I had my education and was older than most when I applied. I applied as a DEO and got accepted straight off the bat. However, I ended up joining as a NCM for about 5 years, applied for Officer after.  The application from within is entirely different, and you are weighed based 
upon your leadership experience within the military. The questions are really geared towards NCM with some rank and experience. It is not normally expected one would make the jump to NCM to officer in such a short time.  

The leadership experience is nothing you can get within a years time, and also hard to get only within five years. I was not even a MCpl when I applied, so what was my experience leading a section? Zero. However, I had built some 'leadership' quals through getting an 
instructors certificate, and teaching some courses. I could not have accomplished that within the short time of one year though. I got an offer for officer in the end, but it was really up in the air. Because of my short time in, and low rank I scored low straight off the bat.
(In the end, I decided to pull plug for bigger and better things)

You may want to look into the option of releasing but staying in the supplementary reserves. Then reapply as a DEO. The process might be significantly faster for you.


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## Good2Golf

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> ...I am interested in constructive suggestions only...



Might I suggest that you consider the possibility that you may be far more subjective in your assessment of others' abilities than the very system for which you believe subjectivity to be a shortcoming?

Might I also suggest that you consider that those who are focused more on performing to their potential than concerning themselves with how they compare to others are often unburdened with worries of inequitable or fair treatment from a professional organization.


Regards
G2G


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## the 48th regulator

toyotatundra,

CDN Aviator nailed it it, as far as I am concerned.
dileas

tess


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## Michael OLeary

vhaust said:
			
		

> My bad, I am just trying to take a neutral stance with this fellow poster because I saw stabbing posts against him.



Despite the forum's ability to be hostile, there's been no _"et tu Brute"_ knife play here. There has, however, been a pretty solid consensus that that perhaps the OP has an overly high opinion of himself (based, of course, simply on the information he has offered and the manner of presentation) and that perhaps the chain of command assessing him might have to be given benefit of the doubt in the absence of receiving the other side of the story.


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## George Wallace

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> First off, I know that there are some people who use internet forums to berate and ridicule others. Please spare me any moral lectures or personal attacks. I am going to lay out my situation without false humility. I am interested in constructive suggestions only.
> 
> My story. I applied for Reserve Officer last year and was rejected despite having a degree. I applied for Reserve NCM and was accepted. I reapplied for promotion to officer this year and was told they don't think I have the necessary leadership skills.
> 
> I am an older candidate, in my late 20s. Rightly or wrongly, it is clear that my pre-military work history is being held against me.
> 
> There are many 21 or 22 year olds being accepted for officer cadet positions. I can say objectively that I am smarter than most of them, and that I have valuable life experience that they lack. I am not being arrogant in this. I am not stronger or better looking or more popular with women than the average applicant. But I am more intelligent and wise.
> 
> Until now, the plan has been to do my duties as an NCM, and hopefully impress with improved leadership skills. However, it seems that NCM applicants to DEO/CT are put up to a higher standard than civilian DEO or ROTP applicants. College age kids are to a large degree a blank slate. Experienced NCMs have a track record. In a perfect world, this inequality would be balanced in the minds of promotion officials. However  this does not appear to be the case.
> 
> This concern over track records is a central issue because CF definitions of leadership appear inherently subjective. Success on a firing range can be objectively measured. Running speed and push up ability can be quantified. But leadership cannot.
> 
> I am fine with being passed over for a position because I cannot meet a tangible standard, like eyesight or degree type. However, being held back for subjective reasons is quite demoralizing.
> 
> I want to excel in the Forces. However I do not want to be trapped as a perpetual NCM, under the command of college age students who I am smarter than. I realize that I made a mistake in accepting an NCM position when my real desire is officer.  However, there doesn't seem to be a clear way out of this bind.
> 
> If I continue as an NCM, I will face the extra obstacles which come with component transfer and special commissioning. If I release from the Forces, and reapply later for DEO, my military experience will still be there to be picked through.
> 
> The personnel selection system can be rather exasperating.



I have been watching you post for the past thirty minutes or so, which leaves me with a couple of conclusions.  One; you are trying to edit your post, or you are not quite as quick as you claim.


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## Fishbone Jones

You call into question, the abilities of others, without so much as simple interaction. Yet, when the Review Board does the same with you, after having questioned and observed you, and consulted amongst themselves, found you wanting, it's obviously the systems fault.

Your sense of personal worth and self entitlement is totally astounding and worthy of the defective gentry that became officers and leaders of men, due to social standing, to everyone's detriment, during Colonial times.

The best thing you could do is spend, at minimum, 10 years as an NCM and see if you gain any humility, trade experience, leadership abilities and down right common sense.

Second thought, everyone has been too easy on you.

Please find another vocation, we have no need of your type in the CF. NCM or Officer. Regular or Reserve.

And please stay away from the Cadet Corps also.


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## toyotatundra

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have been watching you post for the past thirty minutes or so, which leaves me with a couple of conclusions.  One; you are trying to edit your post, or you are not quite as quick as you claim.



You are monitoring me behind the scenes? That's eery.


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## Fishbone Jones

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> You are monitoring me behind the scenes? That's eery.



Too bad, it's what Moderators do. 

Guess you have trouble being scrutinized wherever you're at.


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## kawa11

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> You are monitoring me *behind the scenes?* That's eery.


You still think that's the wind rustling in the leaves?


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## aesop081

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> You are monitoring me behind the scenes? That's eery.



Out of everything that was posted, that is what you decided to respond to ?

 :


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## Fishbone Jones

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I am an older candidate, in my late 20s.



Now if you were in your late thirties, even forties, that statement might have a ring of truth. In your late 20's? Nada, you're not even a late bloomer for officer.



			
				toyotatundra said:
			
		

> Rightly or wrongly, it is clear that my pre-military work history is being held against me.



What is this 'pre-military work history'? Inquiring minds want to know.

I know McDonalds fry cookers\ burger flippers that became officers. What could have been in your background work history that was so dastardly that it, and it alone, kiboshed your chance of becoming a self proclaimed leader of stalwart fighting men. Which is obviously your God given birthright?


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## toyotatundra

Pieman said:
			
		

> I had my education and was older than most when I applied. I applied as a DEO and got accepted straight off the bat.



Congrats.



> You may want to look into the option of releasing but staying in the supplementary reserves. Then reapply as a DEO. The process might be significantly faster for you.



Thank you for the advice. The officer in question told me that "no one" on the unit thinks I have "any" of the skills necessary to be an officer. She asked me for my perceived strengths, and then dismissed all of them as "irrelevant". 

Even the officer who approved me as NCM told me I was a "marginal" candidate who had been "red flagged" for quick release.

I talked to friends and family, people who know my strengths and weaknesses up close. Their assessment was that, fairly or unfairly, the local military community just doesn't like me. Whoever I am, whatever I have done or not done, simply rubs the group the wrong way.

I think the best course of action may be to release from the unit.


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## VIChris

TT, if you want more appropriate advice from this forum, may I suggest you divulge more of the info you hint at in your posts? What strengths of yours did the officer suggest were irrelevant? What are the past actions that you refer to which are rubbing the local military community the wrong way? Can you sit back and try to see things from the other side of the recruiting table? These are the kind of actions that are part of good leadership: Openness, honesty, and an ability to see an issue from multiple angles are valuable traits. 

You've had a lot of direct advice here already, most of it constructive, which is what you asked for. I'm certain if you engage directly in conversation, and stop skirting the important points, you'll get a lot out of the experience of the senior membership here.


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## Fishbone Jones

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> Congrats.
> 
> Thank you for the advice. The officer in question told me that "no one" on the unit thinks I have "any" of the skills necessary to be an officer. She asked me for my perceived strengths, and then dismissed all of them as "irrelevant".
> 
> Even the officer who approved me as NCM told me I was a "marginal" candidate who had been "red flagged" for quick release.
> 
> I talked to friends and family, people who know my strengths and weaknesses up close. Their assessment was that, fairly or unfairly, the local military community just doesn't like me. Whoever I am, whatever I have done or not done, simply rubs the group the wrong way.
> 
> I think the best course of action may be to release from the unit.



Yep. Everyone else is wrong and your the only one that's right.

Oh, and your parents, that have been telling you all your life you can be whatever you want to be, they were wrong too. Some people are just made to flip burgers. Get over yourself and your misplaced superior attitude.

Here's a flash Sunshine. Just because everyone in the race gets a ribbon for participating doesn't mean anything. There's still only one winner and the rest of you are losers. That's life.

Obviously, the CF isn't for you. Deal with it and move on, they don't want you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spvTtHfdfQ8&feature=related


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## Container

Why would you even want to stau in an organization that works the way you describe? If you truly feel the way you come across as feeling its shocking that youd like to be a leader amongst all the stupid teenage officers.

Im concerned at your motives for sticking around. Nobody wants to follow the guy who craves authority. Not to mention craves all the crazy athority a junior officer if given.


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## Nauticus

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> Congrats.
> 
> Thank you for the advice. The officer in question told me that "no one" on the unit thinks I have "any" of the skills necessary to be an officer. She asked me for my perceived strengths, and then dismissed all of them as "irrelevant".
> 
> Even the officer who approved me as NCM told me I was a "marginal" candidate who had been "red flagged" for quick release.
> 
> I talked to friends and family, people who know my strengths and weaknesses up close. Their assessment was that, fairly or unfairly, the local military community just doesn't like me. Whoever I am, whatever I have done or not done, simply rubs the group the wrong way.
> 
> I think the best course of action may be to release from the unit.


For myself and others, I think you should elaborate a little bit on what your perceived strengths were, and what your "history" was.


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## Pieman

> The officer in question told me that "no one" on the unit thinks I have "any" of the skills necessary to be an officer. She asked me for my perceived strengths, and then dismissed all of them as "irrelevant".


Yea, someone is not saying good things about you. A whole year in and no leadership potential whatsoever? hmmm.....



> I think the best course of action may be to release from the unit.


I think it is something to consider. Does not sound like you are going to be able to move forward in that environment.  I suspect that if you looked into taking the route I suggested, you might find the route you are looking for.



> Nobody wants to follow the guy who craves authority.


Those guys are easy to spot. They are usually about 5' tall.


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## Fishbone Jones

Pieman said:
			
		

> Those guys are easy to spot. They are usually about 5' tall.



Napoleon Complex?


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## Pieman

> Napoleon Complex?


Also known as small man syndrome.


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## bison33

TT, some folks are just not made for the CF. You seem to fit into that category. Just accept it, take your degree and put it to use elsewhere. Sometimes things happen for a reason. Down the road, you may actually think, "Wow, I'm glad I got out, this is so much better" or something to that effect. Whatever you do, do it well.


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## brihard

I'm an infantry section commander. Seven  and a half years in, two of them commanding a section. A tour overseas. I recently finished my degree. My troops this past year have between them a quarter century of university education- two are doing Master's degrees. Out of the six corporals I directly command right now, there's a college diploma, two degrees, and two more in progress. I'm qualified, I think, to speak to the value of a university degree in the primary reserve, although I won't claim that my experience is anything but modest compared to many here. But I've soldiered a bit, learned a lot, and made my share of errors. My learning by osmosis is not inconsiderable either.

The inherent value of the degree? Not a whole hell of a lot. A degree teaches you how to find and read sources, take information from them, and turn it into a readble product summarizing and expounding on a typically rather specific thesis as a subset of that field of knowledge. Obviously professional degrees differ.

I will be blunt, to start, because it's appropriate. You come across as petulant and arrogant. You seem to feel you are entitled to a superior standing because you slogged through school. Congratulations- I won't pretend to know what your marks are; I don't care. I do know that by far the hardest part of getting a degree is paying for it. The academics needed to get by are not exactly exhausting- you appear to be functionally literate and relatively well spoken, which is the single most fundamental requirement for good grades and academic success.

It took me most of those seven years - and a subtantial part of my time thus far commanding a section - to begin to grasp what leadership is, and I will state outright that anything I say on the matter is subject to the scrutiny and (if merited) scorn of others. I won't pretend to have it figured out in its entirety.

I look at it, however, as 'making your troops want to do, of their own accord, what you want them to do in accordance with the intent of your superiors'.  I could rattle off the CF pam definition of course - it's not bad, but I like mine a bit better; afford me that minor conceit. Using either definition- when there is crap to be done (the essence of our job, afer all, is 'get crap done') will troops muckle on to you and get at it independent of any formal, legal command authority you may exert by virtue of rank or appointment? Leadership and rank are a loose Venn diagram at best. I've seen senior NCOs who couldn't lead a five man rush on a six man shitter, and corporals whom I'll happily follow if their careers should surpass mine.

I would wager you faced little real hardship in the process of getting to where you are now. I mean real hardship- not being hard done by. You don't evidence any of the humility I would associate with wisdom and with the years you profess to have lived. I'm not saying you aren't who you say you are, I believe every objective word you've said. I think, however, you err critically in your assignation of value to your own observations over those of others who have a vested interest in ensuring that the right people become officers in their regiment.

For make no mistake- NCO's talk, and have a lot of pull. Officers have their own world, which I'm not particularly privy to, but reputations travel within those circles too. And thsoe circles overlap increasingly as the respective ranks progress higher. A private who comes across as possessing a sense of superiority and entitlement will be noted as such. NCOs and officers are actively looking for future leaders- and they are more qualified to make that evaluation than you, at this early stage in your career, can possibly imagine. I flatter myself to think I'm starting to see the picture in fuzzy whole, though I'm a long ways off from seeing it clearly. But I know the men and women I've followed, and those who I would continue to do so willingly given the choice. Not one of the latter presented themselves as you have.

I believe that you are critically deficient in grasping the true value of the junior ranks you work with, and what makes them tick. You are not, in any way shape or form, inherently 'better' than them. An academic education is all well and good, but it really doesn't signify when you find yourself doing the job for real. You barely know the basics of soldiering at this point, never mind what is expected beyond the very basic soldier skills. To be blunt, you've yet to really do much of anything in the military, and you're not qualfied to judge the motivations of others, nor the professionalism upon which you seem to cast aspertions. 

An officer who started in the ranks will ALWAYS be an officer who started in the ranks, with a perspective that could not otherwise be gained. This isn't to suggest that officer who started as such are of any less merit, just that experience in the JR's mess will always stick with you. I sugest you you nurture that perspective, work your way up to Corporal, and then earn yourself a spot on a PLQ in due time. If they will not offer you a PLQ, you have no business thinking yourself fit to be an officer anyway. I will respectfully reccomend to you that you examine your motives for wishing to be an officer. Do you wish to *command* soldiers using an authority granted by someone else, or do you wish to demonstrate that you are worthy to *lead* them? For leadership is, I would argue, the closest thing to democracy in the military. Soldiers will only *follow* of their own free will, whereas obediance if compulsory by law. When you learn to differentiate obedience from following, then you start to get an eye for who the leaders around you are. You can commission, and have the authority given to you- but I like the old line that something given is of little value. Learn a bit more about yourself, first, about others, second, and then perhaps work to shape yourself into someone in whom others entrust themselves voluntarily. When they begin to do that, then you know you're where you need to be.

You aren't there. You may never get there, because not everyone who wants to does. But if you do want to, learn from the experience of others, and from the advice being offered you. Take any of it individually with a grain of salt, but make sure you recognize clearly the picture we're painting for you collectively.


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## toyotatundra

VIChris said:
			
		

> TT, if you want more appropriate advice from this forum, may I suggest you divulge more of the info you hint at in your posts? What strengths of yours did the officer suggest were irrelevant? What are the past actions that you refer to which are rubbing the local military community the wrong way?




More on my situation: When I was younger I did a lot of drugs. I don't have a record. But my career, my education were severely hampered. 

I got off drugs. Time passed. For good or ill, I was completely open about my past with the recruiting centre. I was still declared unfit for service. On more than one application. I understand the reason for that.

Eventually the unfit for service label was reversed. However, the recruiting officer seemed hesitant to proceed. The officer in charge at the unit was (to put it mildly) even less gung-ho.

More recent accomplishments did not seem to matter. I had been boxed as X, Y and Z. And on several occasions I was told such. Worse, any subsequent decision I made, anything that went wrong in training, appeared to be fit back into the XYZ box. 

There should be no "red flags". There should be no "we don't want you but have to take you".

Given my age, I think I may have been too anxious to get into combat arms before my best fighting years were up. I should have waited longer. I really do think I have some exceptional abilities in some areas. However I don't see an easy way out of this poisoned well.


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## aesop081

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> More recent accomplishments did not seem to matter.



This is reality in many places, just not the CF.



> There should be no "red flags". There should be no "we don't want you but have to take you".



Why not ? Please explain.


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## toyotatundra

Container said:
			
		

> be a leader amongst all the stupid teenage officers.



Be careful not to put words in my mouth. Having been one myself, I think 19 year olds are inexperienced. However I have no doubt that many are able students and future leaders.



> Im concerned at your motives for sticking around. Nobody wants to follow the guy who craves authority. Not to mention craves all the crazy athority a junior officer if given.



Again, I am concerned by the tendency here to pathologize honesty. I state that I am above average in some areas and below average in several others. The below average comments are completely ignored. And I am instead derided for being arrogant, a little man, even a Napoleon.

Sure i seek authority and status. So do a huge number of people in medicine, law, science and business. Again, this shouldn't be pathologized. I do not seek only status. Like most anyone I desire a range of qualities and experiences.


----------



## aesop081

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> Like most anyone I desire a range of qualities and experiences.



Desiring it does not mean you are suitable for it.


----------



## Pieman

Sounds like you are walking into a situation where you have been given a chance. Whether the people there feel you deserve it or not, you got it. 

I would say it is up to you to prove your salt to them and yourself if you want to take advantage of the opportunity that is in front of you. A year in is not nearly enough time to make that happen. Just a thought. 

The little man comment I made was not directed at you, I was making reference to the fact that most people I encountered that 'power trip' tend to be short guys. (....how tall are you anyway?  )


----------



## medicineman

If it's status and authority you seek, start and run your own business.  If you want to lead soldiers, you have to prove yourself like everybody else...it's not something you can just show up and do like it's the 18th Century British Army where you bought your commission one day and the next you're commanding a rifle platoon on the battlefield.  I've made a suggestion or two, others have as well - a good leader listens to people that have been around a bit and then makes decisions based on their innate knowledge and training and what the others have suggested.  They may not use anything suggested, but they at least listen and weigh the pro's and con's.  I don't get that from you - at least right now.  

 :2c:

MM


----------



## toyotatundra

It's late and I'm tired. But you guys have given me a lot to think about.


----------



## Silverfire

While this is nowhere as insightful as everyone else's posts, I'll add my own tidbit, straight from Mumma.  You should be grateful for what you have instead of complaining about what you don't have.  Take a gander at the recruiting board.  Look at all the people who would go to great lengths to be where you are at the moment and have the ability to honestly say you're in the Canadian Forces.  In my opinion, the military will place you where they think you will be most effective to serve.  If you would make a better Officer than an NCM, I'm sure they would make sure they fixed that for you.


----------



## Nauticus

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> It's late and I'm tired. But you guys have given me a lot to think about.


My opinion, take it or leave it, is that you were deemed unfit for a leadership role, but you were given the opportunity to earn a leadership position through proving them you are fit for it. I don't believe a person is given a particularly good opportunity to prove or disprove this within one year, as you're still learning your trade, but if it's something you really want, go for it. If not, leave.

If your CFRC _and_ your reserve unit think you're unfit, chances are you may be unfit.


----------



## Journeyman

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'm an infantry section commander.....


I've avoided commenting in this thread, primarily because toyotatundra very wisely (as he's stated repeatedly that he is) chose to tick the "no ridicule" option.

The response by Brihard however, is one of the most well thought-out and expressed that I've read on this site.

Thank you.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> Sure i seek authority and status.



I am an officer of some experience who, like you, started as an NCM in a reserve unit, and so I have some understanding of both your situation and the larger questions about leadership etc that have permeated your posts to date.

If authority and status are what drive you, keep on driving by please.  Your motives will inevitably taint your thoughts, words and deeds.

However, if it is *responsibility* that you crave, come on in.  You have the right mindset to become a good leader.

It is a mark of both wisdom and experience (both of which you claim to have in abundance) to be able to discern the difference between authority and responsibility.  Yes, the former in some ways defines the latter, but as a motive, the yearning for responsibility is what sets a leader apart form his rank, authority, or status.

Just a thought.


----------



## brihard

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I've avoided commenting in this thread, primarily because toyotatundra very wisely (as he's stated repeatedly that he is) chose to tick the "no ridicule" option.
> 
> The response by Brihard however, is one of the most well thought-out and expressed that I've read on this site.
> 
> Thank you.



Thank you, I appreciate it.


----------



## George Wallace

Brihard said:
			
		

> Thank you, I appreciate it.



 >

Now!  

Check your spelling.  

 ;D


----------



## brihard

George Wallace said:
			
		

> >
> 
> Now!
> 
> Check your spelling.
> 
> ;D



All C/S, humbled now. Out.  ;D


----------



## toyotatundra

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The response by Brihard however, is one of the most well thought-out and expressed that I've read on this site.
> 
> Thank you.



Yes, his response was quite extensive. I appreciate the generosity of so many people here. They have given up their time to share their experience and advice.


----------



## George Wallace

Brihard said:
			
		

> The inherent value of the degree? Not a whole hell of a lot. A degree teaches you how to find and read sources, take information from them, and turn it into a readable product summarizing and expounding on a typically rather specific thesis as a subset of that field of knowledge. Obviously professional degrees differ.



If only this were true.  I have had to assess aspiring officers on products that they have produced in the form of written reports.  Their writing skills and use of logic have in many cases been lacking.  Their ability to write a clear, concise report in most cases are far from acceptable.  They have to be supervised, reeducated, and constantly corrected.  Their Degrees, in my opinion, are not worth the paper they are printed on as we have to completely retrain them and failing that we may have to recommend RELEASE or another Trade.


----------



## toyotatundra

Nauticus said:
			
		

> My opinion, take it or leave it, is that you were deemed unfit for a leadership role, but you were given the opportunity to earn a leadership position through proving them you are fit for it. I don't believe a person is given a particularly good opportunity to prove or disprove this within one year, as you're still learning your trade, but if it's something you really want, go for it. If not, leave.
> 
> If your CFRC _and_ your reserve unit think you're unfit, chances are you may be unfit.



You know, I'm definitely starting to see the situation from their perspective. I had a very troubled youth. There are reasons why the recruiting officer was hesitant. There are reasons why the unit wants to test me out first. 

I have devoted a good deal of my energy to achieving high status. When my goal should really be achieving high performance.

The cup is already nine tenths full. I have been given the honor and the privilege of serving in the Canadian Forces. There are many well educated people serving as NCMs. I have  the opportunity to prove myself.

A leadership role in the Canadian Forces is not a constitutional right. It has to be earned.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> You know, I'm definitely starting to see the situation from their perspective. I had a very troubled youth. There are reasons why the recruiting officer was hesitant. There are reasons why the unit wants to test me out first.
> 
> I have devoted a good deal of my energy to achieving high status. When my goal should really be achieving high performance.
> 
> The cup is already nine tenths full. I have been given the honor and the privilege of serving in the Canadian Forces. There are many well educated people serving as NCMs. I have  the opportunity to prove myself.
> 
> A leadership role in the Canadian Forces is not a constitutional right. It has to be earned.



Maybe, just maybe, you're finally starting to get it. 

Good on you and good luck.


----------



## Scott

Nice to see your latest responses rather than this BULLSHIT

Thanks and good luck to you


----------



## medicineman

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> A leadership role in the Canadian Forces is not a constitutional right. It has to be earned.



 :nod:

MM


----------



## toyotatundra

> Maybe, just maybe, you're finally starting to get it.



I started drawing up a list of all the NCMs at my unit currently at university, or already graduated. Just among the people I know, there's easily 10 or 15. I've created this fantasy of being so hard done by. The evidence from my unit suggests otherwise.

I also sat down and looked at my university performance. Looked at my drug use. My employment history.

I realize now, the officers in question made the right call.


----------



## brihard

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I started drawing up a list of all the NCMs at my unit currently at university, or already graduated. Just among the people I know, there's easily 10 or 15. I've created this fantasy of being so hard done by. The evidence from my unit suggests otherwise.
> 
> I also sat down and looked at my university performance. Looked at my drug use. My employment history.
> 
> I realize now, the officers in question made the right call.



At some point in the future you will likely credit this realization for much of the success you have by then achieved. Part of the beauty of the military is that when all is said and done, there is a lot of room for a career to be propelled by merit, and self awareness is a great step in that direction.

Best of luck to you. It's a long road ahead of you, but well worth travelling.


----------



## Scott

Dude, let's just say that you were putting across your former attitude to them...then yes, no sense in calling your number. However, given that little tramp on the dink, you might find yourself winning favours if you can keep this new outlook up and *grow* from it.

I often avoid recruiting forums and more often avoid replying...but I wish you luck. If you're serious and mean what you say then you can only go one direction. You might not get the call you want but you'll display the growth and that will be worth a load.

Brihard says "merit" and this turn in thinking shows and deserves some, IMO. Keep it up


----------



## toyotatundra

Scott said:
			
		

> If you're serious and mean what you say



Yeah, I think I had what they call a "light bulb moment".

Not only should I stop fretting about becoming an officer. I shouldn't even be thinking about becoming a sergeant or warrant.

For the next several years, I reckon the two questions I need to focus on are,

What is the next course I need to take?
On this course, how do I kick some serious ass?


----------



## Redeye

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> Yeah, I think I had what they call a "light bulb moment".
> 
> Not only should I stop fretting about becoming an officer. I shouldn't even be thinking about becoming a sergeant or warrant.
> 
> For the next several years, I reckon the two questions I need to focus on are,
> 
> What is the next course I need to take?
> On this course, how do I kick some serious ***?



That sounds like a pretty good approach.  Do your job, do it well, and you'll progress accordingly.  As someone who had to prove a lot of people wrong to get to where I am in life now, I can tell you it is possible.


----------



## Pusser

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> There should be no "red flags". There should be no "we don't want you but have to take you".



For as long as I can remember (which is a few years now), the CF has never been in a situation where we had to take anyone.  Enrolment has always been competitive and there have always been waiting lists.  The fact that you were enrolled at all is an accomplishment unto itself.  Somebody must have seen something in you, so take that to heart (and don't let them down).  I've followed this thread from the beginning and I'm pleased to see a significant shift in attitude.  I think you are now on the right track, so carpe diem, concentrate on being a member of a pretty awesome team  and move forward.  I think that as a whole, the CF is pretty good at giving second chances.  You have an opportunity in front of you.  Good luck.


----------



## dave.jones3

I thought  I would throw in my two cents, as irrelevant as it may now be. 

I am somewhat confused by your seeming complete lack of respect for the NCM position, valuable leadership opportunities abound, with them comes the opportunity to distinguish yourself. Perhaps it is your feelings of hopelessness and superiority that are holding you back from acceptance as an Officer. In addition to that, from what I have gathered, you have only been in for a year...which is a little soon to be expecting a whole bunch back from the CF.

Granted, all this is coming from someone who knows little about the workings of the CF, and is readily willing to admit his lack thereof. Maybe realizing there are more qualified candidates, and working to make yourself a more attractive one would be a good start. From people that I have talked to, many units are screaming for Jr. Officers.


And now I sheepishly admit I didn't read the 3rd page. OOPS :



Regards


----------



## toyotatundra

dave.jones3 said:
			
		

> I am somewhat confused by your seeming complete lack of respect for the NCM position



No, no. I have huge respect for many of the NCMs I have met. In particular, for several of the NCMs at my unit who are Afghan veterans. I am not aiming to be an officer because I dislike NCMs. I am aiming to be an officer because I prefer intellectual or written tasks to practical ones.



> From people that I have talked to, many units are screaming for Jr. Officers.



Army units? Reserve or Regular Force?

And who have you talked to? Like other privates, senior NCMs?



> And now I sheepishly admit I didn't read the 3rd page. OOPS :



Haha, too funny.


----------



## aesop081

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I am aiming to be an officer because I prefer intellectual or written tasks to practical ones.



You have no idea what NCMs do....do you ?


----------



## dave.jones3

Being a university student myself, I have considered going the Officer route. I have talked to 3 units in Edmonton, all have expressed a need for Jr. Officers. I was talking to a few Officers I know and a couple Recruiting NCO.

I have, for the time being, chosen to stay an extremely content NCM, enjoying the opportunities it has presented me with. I do enough "intellectual and written" stuff in class.

Cheers


----------



## dirtnco

And the bright red light tracks across the officers back. After alot of years of "doing this stuff"  young dumbass, I have been in the company of some great leaders , and some not so . You would make great boot blackener, only because it wears off after a bit and i can find more. 

To the staff of this great page, moderate as you see fit


----------



## toyotatundra

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You have no idea what NCMs do....do you ?



I am only going by what the recruiters said in response to my specific questions.

If you have contrasting or additional information, I would be happy to learn from your experience.


----------



## toyotatundra

dirtnco said:
			
		

> And the bright red light tracks across the officers back. After alot of years of "doing this stuff"  young dumbass



There's no reason for name calling.



> You would make great boot blackener, only because it wears off after a bit and i can find more.



There's no reason for personal attacks.


----------



## George Wallace

toyotatundra

You are getting some of these responses because you have no concept of what you are talking about.  Please read more here and get a better feel for what it is to be a member of the CF.


----------



## Pusser

From the beginning of this thread to now, we have seen a significiant shift in attitude from the OP (toyotatundra), so I think it's unfair that some folks are chiming at this point to dump all over him for the things he said in the beginning.  He's recognized his mistake and is trying to move.  Perhaps we should let him?

Perhaps a lesson here for everybody is that we should read through an entire thread before commenting?  That way, we a) don't repeat what someone else has already said and b) don't look like a jerk for dumping on someone who has already corrected his mistake.

Now to comment on adminstrative versus practical work.  There indeed are some NCMs who do a lot of administrative type work, which can involve significant amounts of writing.  By the same token, there are officer classifications that do very little of it.  However, as a general rule, the NCM role is more practical in nature, while the officers role is more administrative.  It is also worth noting that administration and writing generally don't become part of the job for NCMs until they get to higher ranks and levels of responsibility, whereas for officers, it tends to start from the beginning.


----------



## Good2Golf

It is a rather unfortunate misconception that only officers perform duties requiring intellect or creating written products, or that NCMs only conduct "practical" tasks.  Intellect or personal aptitude is unique to neither commissioned nor non-commissioned members of the Forces.

If one is going to generalize, then the most detailed one should be is that NCMs may deal with greater specifics of tasks and that officers, particularly at the higher ranks, address issues in a more general (hint: especially by, you know...Generals) manner.

Let's look at it differently -- Do you want to be highly skilled and demonstrate exceptional control of a unique and specialized discipline with technical and interpersonal aspects to the critical employment of systems within that discipline?  If so, the NCM path is likely a very rewarding path to follow.  If being less involved in the intimate details of systems and working more on the stewardship of a branch or capability is to your liking and aptitude, then commissioned service may be the way to go.

Regards
G2G


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Pusser said:
			
		

> From the beginning of this thread to now, we have seen a significiant shift in attitude from the OP (toyotatundra), so I think it's unfair that some folks are chiming at this point to dump all over him for the things he said in the beginning.  He's recognized his mistake and is trying to move.  Perhaps we should let him?
> 
> Perhaps a lesson here for everybody is that we should read through an entire thread before commenting?  That way, we a) don't repeat what someone else has already said and b) don't look like a jerk for dumping on someone who has already corrected his mistake.
> 
> Now to comment on adminstrative versus practical work.  There indeed are some NCMs who do a lot of administrative type work, which can involve significant amounts of writing.  By the same token, there are officer classifications that do very little of it.  However, as a general rule, the NCM role is more practical in nature, while the officers role is more administrative.  It is also worth noting that administration and writing generally don't become part of the job for NCMs until they get to higher ranks and levels of responsibility, whereas for officers, it tends to start from the beginning.



However, there's the problem. He came in ignorant of the facts and full of himself. He got corrected, and seemed to turn a corner. Then he falls back to ground zero with idiotic comments about Officer\ NCM status again.

Perhaps the best lesson he could learn is just to STFU until such time as he's gained enough experience AND knowledge to form an intelligent opinion.


----------



## jwtg

recceguy said:
			
		

> However, there's the problem. He came in ignorant of the facts and full of himself. He got corrected, and seemed to turn a corner. Then he falls back to ground zero with idiotic comments about Officer\ NCM status again.
> 
> Perhaps the best lesson he could learn is just to STFU until such time as he's gained enough experience AND knowledge to form an intelligent opinion.



If ground zero is, as you described, 'ignorant of the facts and full of himself', then he's hardly fallen back to it.

[quote author=toyotatundra]I am only going by what the recruiters said in response to my specific questions.

If you have contrasting or additional information, I would be happy to learn from your experience.
[/quote]

Ignorant and arrogant is hardly the same as naive, and when the symptoms are different, often so are the remedies.  Maybe, drawing from your own experience of leadership, you could see that the shift in attitude has taken place in the OP and all that is required at this point is to help him become properly informed.

Or maybe you think it's more fun to do it your way.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Another, I see.

Thank you, so very much for pointing out the error of my ways based on your vast experience.


----------



## jwtg

recceguy said:
			
		

> Another, I see.
> 
> Thank you, so very much for pointing out the error of my ways based on your vast experience.


I wasn't aware that extensive CF experience was required to judge the merit of a person's words, their openness to correction, or their attitude.  If this were a matter of CF or military expertise, I would happily defer to your own experience; however, the debate seems to revolve more around the OP's attitude.  In that respect, you and I have the same sample to draw from- his words on this forum.

EDIT: To remove my own patronizing remark regarding RG's attitude, in the interest of practicing what I preach and not fuelling the fire.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

jwtg said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that extensive CF experience was required to judge the merit of a person's words, their openness to correction, or their attitude.  If this were a matter of CF or military expertise, I would happily defer to your own experience; however, the debate seems to revolve more around the OP's attitude.  In that respect, you and I have the same sample to draw from- his words on this forum.
> 
> If you would address my words instead of just spitting venom from your high horse then this discussion might go somewhere.



It's all part of one's perception and how it shapes their opinion.

Spitting venom from my high horse? That's pretty rich, but like I said, that's your opinion, not mine. We just don't agree on certain parameters is all.


----------



## toyotatundra

Pusser said:
			
		

> From the beginning of this thread to now, we have seen a significiant shift in attitude from the OP (toyotatundra), so I think it's unfair that some folks are chiming at this point to dump all over him for the things he said in the beginning.  He's recognized his mistake and is trying to move.  Perhaps we should let him?



Thank you.


----------



## aesop081

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I am only going by what the recruiters said in response to my specific questions.



With a year in the CF and your initial expectation that your unit should roll over for you, all you have is "my recruiter told me" ?

I drown in paperwork every single day. I have to write reports on someone or something at least once a day. I not only have to handle my own administration but that of my subordinates. There is allot of writing and typing i assure you.

I also have to use my head. Training programs don't get developed by themselves. I had to participate in redesigning national level training for my trade and restructuring employment in new areas. I have had my head filled full of such intellectual things as the use of spaced-based assets and electronic warfare. I then get to use my NCM brain to advise the chain of command ( you know....officers) on the use of these assets to support the mission, sometimes at much higher levels than myself. I can assure you that my work as an NCM requires a large amount of "intellectual" work.


----------



## Nauticus

recceguy said:
			
		

> However, there's the problem. He came in ignorant of the facts and full of himself. He got corrected, and seemed to turn a corner. Then he falls back to ground zero with *idiotic comments about Officer\ NCM status again*.
> 
> Perhaps the best lesson he could learn is just to STFU until such time as he's gained enough experience AND knowledge to form an intelligent opinion.


I'm not sure that was necessary. Yes, people who aren't _in_ the CF tend to not be acutely aware of every detail regarding trades and ranks, but then, most jobs are the same way. It's less "idiotic" and more "naive". You and I, I'm sure, were naive toward some of the details regarding the CF when we joined and I doubt we considered it "idiotic".


----------



## toyotatundra

Nauticus said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that was necessary. Yes, people who aren't _in_ the CF tend to not be acutely aware of every detail regarding trades and ranks, but then, most jobs are the same way. It's less "idiotic" and more "naive". You and I, I'm sure, were naive toward some of the details regarding the CF when we joined and I doubt we considered it "idiotic".



I think my brief comment on NCMs being practical may be getting stretched into something I didn't intend. Namely that NCMs are somehow stupid or can't think or never do paper work.

I don't believe any of those things about NCMs.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Sigger said:
			
		

> People are touchy here.
> 
> Toyotatundra, I like how you are not turning into a snot from the comments like so many others would. Good on ya.





			
				Nauticus said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that was necessary. Yes, people who aren't _in_ the CF tend to not be acutely aware of every detail regarding trades and ranks, but then, most jobs are the same way. It's less "idiotic" and more "naive". You and I, I'm sure, were naive toward some of the details regarding the CF when we joined and I doubt we considered it "idiotic".



I'm not sure whether you read my previous response, but here it is again.

It's a matter of perspective. Mine isn't the same as someone else's. I'm also free to think the way I want. You want to offer up a suggestion and a reason? Go ahead, but don't lecture me on what YOU consider being necessary, or not. I'll decide on my own, thank you very much.



			
				toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I think my brief comment on NCMs being practical may be getting stretched into something I didn't intend. Namely that NCMs are somehow stupid or can't think or never do paper work.
> 
> Its no more fair than the opposite. You called NCMs practical? So you think officers are impractical? You said officers do written work? So you think officers can't fire a gun? You called us intellectual? So you think we lack common sense?
> 
> Kind of like when you tell your girlfriend she looks good today. And she replies, so I looked bad yesterday?
> 
> No, no, you just look sexy in that dress. So I look fat in my other dresses?
> 
> And so on.


I think you should just let it drop. There is no win, win with this one. We don't win, you don't win. Especially with that kind of off tangent thinking, making inferences that only you see and no one else said.
Take the advice given, go ponder it and watch (and learn) how the military works when you're at work. Maybe you'll change your mind about some things.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Sigger said:
			
		

> Not sure what happened to my post, so here it is again:
> 
> I realize how easy it is to misconstrue ones posts on a forum, but sometimes it requires a  :facepalm:



It was removed because it added nothing to the conversation as per the guidelines. 

You want to congratulate him, give him some Milpoints. You want to cause shit, go somewhere else.


----------



## toyotatundra

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I drown in paperwork every single day. I have to write reports on someone or something at least once a day. I not only have to handle my own administration but that of my subordinates. There is allot of writing and typing i assure you.
> 
> I also have to use my head. Training programs don't get developed by themselves. I had to participate in redesigning national level training for my trade and restructuring employment in new areas. I have had my head filled full of such intellectual things as the use of spaced-based assets and electronic warfare. I then get to use my NCM brain to advise the chain of command ( you know....officers) on the use of these assets to support the mission, sometimes at much higher levels than myself. I can assure you that my work as an NCM requires a large amount of "intellectual" work.



I believe my attitude towards NCMs has improved somewhat over the course of this thread.

However, as you point out, there is a great deal about the roles of NCMs that I still need to learn.


----------



## Nauticus

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's a matter of perspective. Mine isn't the same as someone else's. I'm also free to think the way I want. You want to offer up a suggestion and a reason? Go ahead, but don't lecture me on what YOU consider being necessary, or not. I'll decide on my own, thank you very much.


Just to clarify, I'm not lecturing you on anything - it's not our place to lecture others on their opinions - but with that said, like you, I'm free to think and say what I feel I should say.


----------



## toyotatundra

recceguy said:
			
		

> Perhaps the best lesson he could learn is just to STFU until such time as he's gained enough experience AND knowledge to form an intelligent opinion.



I can STFU if that becomes the consensus here.

I will say, though, I appreciate giving my opinions, if only because it allows others to correct me when I'm wrong.

By clearing up my arrogance and ignorance now, I suspect you are saving the military a lot of headaches down the road.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I can STFU if that becomes the consensus here.
> 
> I will say, though, I appreciate giving my opinions, if only because it allows others to correct me when I'm wrong.
> 
> By clearing up my arrogance and ignorance now, I suspect you are saving the military a lot of headaches down the road.



Hey, if that's the game you want to play, go for it. So long as you remember to have a thick hide and take the advice without coming back with something silly or snarky.

I think you'll find that if you pose a reasonably intelligent question, without all your conjecture, the membership will be more than accomodating. Where you seem to keep getting in trouble is making off the cuff statements, without thinking.

Try pretending your an NCO and would you like someone making that kind of statement about yourself?

Do not assume we don't do things (like reams of paperwork), instead ask what an NCO has to do administratively. That way you'll learn from others without all these tangents.


----------



## Scott

Nauticus said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, I'm not lecturing you on anything - it's not our place to lecture others on their opinions - but with that said, like you, I'm free to think and say what I feel I should say.



Nauticus, you've crossed my radar a few times for coming into threads only to post about how mean someone is to someone else. I have warned you about it but you seem to forget.

Here it is in plain English: *If you have nothing to contribute to the thread itself, then STFU*. Quite kicking it off track with your sideways swipes at other members. You started off in a contributing role and then lost that when you saw your chance to act like a dink.

Next time you're going into the warning system.

Scott
Staff


----------



## Scott

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> I can STFU if that becomes the consensus here.
> 
> I will say, though, I appreciate giving my opinions, if only because it allows others to correct me when I'm wrong.
> 
> By clearing up my arrogance and ignorance now, I suspect you are saving the military a lot of headaches down the road.



In the acute situations I'll agree that the best answer is to always STFU.

I do not think that is what recceguy was getting at but he can speak for himself.


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