# All About PAT (merged)



## Andrew

This is getting really stupid.  I know that the CF is way undermanned but there should be something they can do!  I have been awaiting my SQ course for 3 months and there are others in holding troop like 6 months already.  I have a few friends in Borden that say there holding troop is already up to apox. 900 troops and kingston 300.  I heard edmonton is up there too.  Just seems like more of a waste of money making us sit on our asses in the QM all day and get us on those courses.  Is this just cause there are lack of personal to train???  

Andrew  :bullet:        :bullet:  


just blowing some steam


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## Korus

I wasn‘t aware it was so bad here in Edmonton...
There‘s an SQ running right now, and there will probably be one in the spring...

I‘ve got to wait until the summer.. It would be too hard for me with 6 uni courses to lose every entire weekend.. Plus I‘m not too fond of the idea of a part time SQ.. I did my BMQ full time, 30 full days..

The good thing is that I‘m doing a lot of on the job training with my unit, so parade nights are never boring.


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## Michael OLeary

A few things happened that caused these backlogs at the base level PAT platoons. Firstly, last year the flavour of the month was a big recruiting crisis, so the CF enrolled everyone they could get. To do this they raided existing establishments to create temporary recruit training facilities, after which all those staff returned to their primary jobs. Second, the trade schools didn‘t have the staff or resources to handle the sudden surge in available students, and therefore many still sit in the PAT platoons. It is unfortunate, but consider that the alterntive would be that your enrolment would have been delayed until the recruit course immediately before an available SQ or trade course. In that case, may of those in the PAT platoons would still be waiting for the CFRC to call. All I can recommend is patience.

Mike


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## stacy mogan

My son is in the final weeks of BT. He has been told he will be sent to a PAT Platoon while they wait for spots to open for his trades training. Is this something that is tied to the fiscal year opening in April? Or what determines how long he will wait to start his training? What do they do in the PAT platoon?
Thanks!


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## combat_medic

The reason he is in PAT platoon is because he‘s awaiting courses. The reason could be lack of instructors, lack of open positions, lack of funding, etc. They can only run so many courses at a time (given the aforementioned constraints) and your son will have to wait in line until it‘s his turn to be on course. Could be 2 weeks, could be 12 months, depends on the trade. 

What he‘ll do in PAT platoon is esentially nothing. When I was in Shilo doing General Duties in the Duty Office, there were about 30 artillery PAT guys there. We had them running errands, cleaning floors, picking up garbage, doing PT, but mostly just sitting around and watching TV. It‘s pretty boring, and I‘d tell your son to bring something to occupy his time.


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## Gryphon

Wow! when I was in Shilo this summer (I was part of the Comms Res BRT) The people that got put onto PAT platoon did nothing. They were confined to quarters for some reason!!!!


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## klumanth

http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-06-08-0031.html 

Troops forced to wait for trade training

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, SUN OTTAWA BUREAU


OTTAWA -- The personnel-strapped Canadian Forces are faced with a backlog of about 1,800 soldiers awaiting trade training thanks to an ordered boost in recruiting. 

Sun Media has learned that about 1,800 soldiers are stewing in specially created holding platoons, waiting for a spot to open up in their course so they can start working for the military - and they could be in limbo for more than a year. 

These soldiers are often used as gofers. They‘re asked to show up in the morning and are assigned various menial tasks like setting up for base events and cleaning up military buildings. 

Capt. Vance White, CFB Borden recruiting spokesman, said on his base they‘re also encouraged to keep up their fitness level and offered classes to improve their academic standings in subjects like math. 

Borden also tries to find the soldiers on-the-job training. 

"Do people decide to get out because they‘re tired of waiting, yes," White said, adding the courses are filled on a first-come, first-served basis. 

"We try to keep them busy." 

White said the backlog is caused by the past two years‘ doubling of recruiting numbers, a boost ordered by Ottawa to ensure the Canadian Forces have enough skilled soldiers. 

White said that means Ottawa hires more soldiers than the Forces have spots for in the classroom. 

Most of the soldiers awaiting training are freshly off the street. They‘ve signed a three-year contract, accepting a job offer that includes a trade course after they‘ve completed basic training. 

The majority, or 63%, have to wait between three and six months to get in their course. About 29% have to wait more than nine months. 

In the past a recruit wouldn‘t be signed up until a course had an opening. But the military changed its policy and now signs up recruits before spots are available, hoping to keep them interested in staying in the military with a regular paycheque


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## Bringer

Anyone know how long the wait is for Infantry? I‘m guessing that the 9+ month waits are for rarer trades than the combat arms. 

My recruiter said that both RCR and PPCLI are open for infantry right now, but that doesn‘t mean they aren‘t recruiting more than they can train.


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## Devlin

> Sun Media has learned


Ummmm hate to break it to ya Sun Media but this is old news.

Yes it definately would suck to sign up get through BMQ and have to play the hurry up and wait game for 6-9 months. 

What should be done to clear out the PAT platoons, perhaps cancel off reserve courses till the Reg force is caught up. But then you are making another group suffer due to poor planning by higher up. As well a lot of reservists count on summer courses to pay for school etc...

Not too mention the number of CT‘s that come out of the reserve world and into the Reg force world, a lot that are already trained and for lack of a better word useful.


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## klumanth

They may have smartened up by now but I know last summer, there were a lot of CT‘s waiting on PAT with everyone else.  Most of them would‘ve gladly stayed with their old units until their course started but they weren‘t given that option.  That sort of thing is unacceptable. 

As for this article just coming out now, yes it is very late, but nowadays any story the mentions the military, our current government and some sort of blunder makes a good story


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## Beatty1

I was wondering if PAT‘s receive any sort of pay?


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## D-n-A

If your referring to Personal Awaiting Training Platoon (PAT Plt). Than yes, they get paid.


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## belka

I know that after BMQ you get sent to a holding PAT, unless your QL3 is right after. Since that usually never happens, what would I expect at a holding PAT? I mean, what do I do there?

Also, I think that your car/truck is considered part of your furniture. I plan to buy a vehicle during my QL3's in Bordon, would I get some sort of compensation when I have to move it to, lets say, Cold Lake?


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## Boone

It kinda depends what trade you are. You mention cold lake so I am going to assume you are going to be either AVN,  AVS or ACS? If that is the case you will be with CFSATE. You would not be doing a heck of alot. Mostly sitting around and awaiting taskings you will get daily PT but that is about it. It is very boring.I was in Borden last year for 6 months awaiting training and I was with the Pat unit called PRETC (Post recruit training education training center). This incompases pretty much all the other trades that come to Borden from Logistics,ATIS, FCS, LCIS,Sig OP, Vehicle tech etc etc. With this unit there is more PT and taskings and anything they can think up to keep you busy, like doing sports, kit inspections drill and all that fun stuff so in other words very boring. But of course it is what you make of it. The six months I spent there are not something I look back on or miss, the best part of Borden was the view in my review mirror as I was leaving. Oh i almost forgot there is a possibility of getting OJT ( On the job training) in your trade while waiting for your ql3 to start this normally takes a while but if you get it you will love it. 
As per your other question. If you have a car when you are finnished your ql3's the military will either pay for the shipping of it to where you are posted or they willl pay you x amount of dollars to drive to your posting. Either way you are taken care of so no worries. If you have any other questions let me know and I will try and help as best as I can.


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## belka

Yes, going in for AVN.

Both questions answered, thanks. Also, while in Bordon, with either the PAT or on your QL3, do you have to pay for board or meals?


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## Boone

Well this also depends. If you are married or in a commen law relationship before you join the forces you will not have to pay room and board. However if you are single you will have to pay room and board. I think it is around $350 a month I am not positive but that is a close approx.
Hope this helps.


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## platinumfx

Regarding the room and board, why wouldn't somebody in a common law relationship have to pay, and what makes a relationship commonlaw, i have been with my gf for about 3 years now and we have a kid together? would that make me commonlaw or no?


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## Boone

yes that is a commen law relationship. If you can prove you have been living for a least 1 yr together you will not have to pay room and board.  But I don't know your situation. It says reserves on your profile and I am not familiar with how it works for you guys on course. I know in the reg force it is how I mentioned above. To answer your other question I don't have a straight answer however I think its just to put married and commen law people on the same level. But I am guessing. Maybe someone else might know more?


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## Arctic Acorn

I have some experience with this, and as a reserve member, you have to be living together for at least a year. Once you do, you have to get a form filled out, and an officer (any one will do) has to witness it. Once that's all said and done, your better half is entitled to all the benefits of a proper spouse.


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## platinumfx

ok well thank you for all the information those are the answers i was looking for. thanks again


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## military-guy

PAT Platoon is a total waste of a person's time and life.  Forget what the other people said here that at least you are getting paid. It would better to be out of the CF and NOT getting paid than to be in PAT Platoon.  In St-Jean, if you get an injury on course or decide that the military isn't for you, or piss off some instructor, you will have to wait in PAT platoon from anywhere between 2 weeks to almost 2 years (i was in PAT almost 2 years!).  In PAT Platoon you just sit there in a room all day long, not allowed to leave or go anywhere or do anything, bored out of your mind, wasting your life and your time.  They don't tell you about this at the recruiting centres!  If you join, go to Basic Training, decide it is not for you, and request a Voluntary Release (quit), they then send you to PAT Platoon for at least 2 weeks before they let you leave.  If you injure yourself while on training it is even worse, as you will be sitting around doing nothing for months!  Anyone that thinks this is normal or acceptable is smoking some strong drugs!


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## excoelis

military-guy said:
			
		

> (i was in PAT almost 2 years!).



Why??? Hmmmmm....................... 2 years, eh.....................



> In PAT Platoon you just sit there in a room all day long, not allowed to leave or go anywhere or do anything, bored out of your mind, wasting your life and your time.



I find it hard to believe that there was absolutely nothing you could do to prepare for your eventual continuation of training.



> If you injure yourself while on training it is even worse, as you will be sitting around doing nothing for months!



So, with your wealth of knowledge and experience, what do you propose?  That they complete training with their peers, despite not being able to do the same training???



> Anyone that thinks this is normal or acceptable is smoking some strong drugs!



Nice attitude.  "It's everyone else's fault.  I'm smarter than them all.  They don't know what they are doing.  What are they doing for ME."

I dunno..... maybe I have misunderstood your intent, but to me you sound bitter, spoiled, self-centered...........


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## Thirstyson

While military-guy does come off as a bit rude, he does have some valid points about how bad St-Jean PAT platoon is.

When I arrived in the St-Jean PAT platoon last February, I think i met this gentleman. We became friends, as he is very likable and relaxed, he even had a good attitude towards the CF but, having spent two years on PAT i can understand how he vents his feelings here.



> In PAT Platoon you just sit there in a room all day long, not allowed to leave or go anywhere or do anything, bored out of your mind, wasting your life and your time.



This is completely true... on a good day, you assembled rucksacks for two hours. Other than daily PT the rest of your time is spent in a room reading the QR and O's or whatever you could find in the St-Jean library. 

The morale in this room is zero. Half of the room is angry because they got injured/failed a rifle test and they have to wait 3 months for the next BOTC, the other half is saying screw the CF, and waiting for their release. This does not help pass the time.

The worst part is the way you are treated on base: even though we're not on course Ocdt's on PAT in St-Jean are treated pretty badly by all passing instructors and other personnel. I understand that this is the norm while ON course, but while not on course, a little bit of humanness would be nice...

Myself, I was able to make the best of a bad situation, I'm still injured (recovering from related surgery) but I've been attached posted to Ottawa since late March and am enjoying the CF. I do however dread returning to St-Jean soon because I will likely be stuck in the same PAT platoon from Feb-May awaiting a course (if I'll heal in time for the Jan 17th BOTC).

As a side note, things were slightly better for the recruit PAT plt as they had new courses starting every week or two and didn't have to wait 3 months or more.


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## excoelis

O.K. Thirsty, I'll take your word for it.  You say he is a gentleman......Roger that.

I accept the fact that I fired the first shot over the bow.....I'll even concede that I don't come here often enough to enforce the attitude I would like to see of the young and unindoctrinated..........My bad.

I gotta say though, If you want to shit in my pool you best have earned the right.  This Army isn't very big.  I work with soldiers every day.  I expect that young officers arriving from training are full of zeal and vigor.  My job is to rein'im in - not to kick him in the ass because he is not physically or mentally up to the task!

In today's ever-changing security environment one has to be up to the task of both risking one's life and the even greater burden of being responsible for the lives of others.

If 'one' can't make the best of a bad situation how TF can 'one' be expected to lead men in the profession of arms?


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## aesop081

I feel i need to add my 2 cents here,

Ther were quite a few individuals at CFSME ( when i was instructing there) that spent an undue amount of time in PAT pl..........i'll admit it.  BUT.......a very large group were doing it to themselves.  What these guys would do is everytime we would tell them " your SQ/QL3 starts on this date" they would promtly go to the MIR and get themselves on a T cat or somekind of chit so they would not have to go on course.....they got used to being lazy and wanted to stay that way.  I was happy the day some of these guys were released !!

I'm sorry you were stuck in a room....but if you are going to be an officer then you should have been able to make the best of a bad situation. I sincerly hope never to have to work for officers with attitudes like that.  Reading the QR&O's is not a waste of time !  You got injured...sorry to hear that...you failed a riffle test......you should have prepared better.

Moral to all this:  You are supposed to be an officer....start acting like it


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## Thirstyson

Like I said.. I did what I could in a bad situation and got a wonderful posting, as for him well... he's released.


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## aesop081

Just curious, what MOC are you and where did you end up ?

Cheers


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## Thirstyson

Signals Officer, background in physics.

I'm currently at DRDC Ottawa.


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## Big Foot

I think that the military needs to take a closer look at PAT platoon. It seemed to me that far too many people have fallen through the cracks and got stuck into PAT when they should be released or put straight back onto course. From my point of view, PAT, at least in St-Jean is being improperly utilized and the higher ups should do whatever it takes to expedite processing to get those people off PAT.


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## aesop081

I would agree with that.  The recruiting system also needs to be improved in order to match up recruit serials to MOC schools as much as possible ( there are limits to what can be acheived there).


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## aspiring_recruit

the reserve unit im joining says that ill be in PAT platoon till the BMQ starts in the summer, or whenever. surely they wont have us show up every week, knowing nothing to sit in a room with others doing and knowing nothing, what is a reserve PAT like? ......anyone?


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## sirmckinnon

Hey Guys. a little blip from Crazy EyEz.
I was on pat at st.jean for almost 4 months, with injuries, and it is seriousally understaffed, the staff try their best to get people out or back on course asap. 
altho, pat there is mundane, same shit different day, the MEGA is structured for a 10 week hard dose of military"ethos" but after a prolonged dose is not conductive to positive mental attitude, I got shit on every day,,,,guarenteed. and not just because of the sunglasses, the place is crawling with instructors, that know the pat people and they watch for us to fuck up, so they can "jack us up" it gets a little old after more than 10 weeks pass, its enough punishment watching your new bestfriends get on the bus at 7am in the green break area after grad. brutal troops....brutal
anyhoo, anyone who wants to rant about cflrs, i have lots of stories


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## chk2fung

When I was on PAT in St. Jean we had an excellent Sergeant running PAT platoon.   PAT can be a complete waste of time if you make it that, or it could be a pretty fulfilling experience.   There are times when you have to sit in the room.   We had tea and toast, visits to the MIR, and PT everyday.   We were tasked out a lot, whether it was admin work, helping out at the QM, etc.   If you know you're gonna be there a while you can ask for attach posting.   You can even apply for courses that you are physically able to complete like recruiting.   A couple of the officer-cadets were given attach postings to Toronto as recruiting officers.  I did not feel we were treated poorly while on PAT.  Just take advantage of your time in PAT, don't fret too much about it being a downer, instead spend your energy getting physically fit to go back on course.


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## sirmckinnon

look buddy, i dont know what base you were at but. REC. pat and OCDT pat are 2 totally different things,,, ocdts are treated much better than rec. pat platoon. 
constant barrage of mental road blocks........bad memories......


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## birdgunnnersrule

Looks like there's two sides of the fence in this one....I agree that some people in the PAT platoons are malingers that do not want to work or were ill prepared for course.  Obviously, some people have serious injuries and were removed from course for that reason.  The CF is going to recruit according to the PM 5000 more personnel. How are we going to be prepared for this influx, especially in technical trades where the QL3 is longer?  Reduced standards, more schools taking instructors away from the units increasing the workload on those left behind, letting people pass that shouldn't to fill the quota.  I am tired of receiving and seeing soldiers and worst of all officers come through the system because of numbers. Fail them, let them stay in the PAT platoon, release them or send them to the other trades.  Although I was lucky enough not to end up in a PAT platoon, I do understand the sense of hopelessness and despair.  Don't always wait for the staff to come to you with something to do as administering personnel that are releasing, injured, and with a wealth of other problems is a fulltime job in its own right.  We cannot afford to tie all kinds of resources up to PAT sitting when do not have enough qualified trainers.  If you are going to be there long enough take an OPME, sew, stay away from the ones with the bad attitude. Volunteer to teach lectures on the QR & Os, I don't know, just change the mindset.


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## Meridian

IMHO Pat in St Jean was garbage.

I was medically recoursed due to back issues off of my course. Thankfully they are since on the mend, and I was cleared medically before release to enable re-enrollment. 

Since I was not appreciating the RMC way of things, and was having financial difficulties, I was told it was impossible to transfer to ROTP civi-u, but to VR and re-enroll after 6 months.   Told by several staff, and the Major who interviewed me on exit more or less recommended this or the reserves as well as a better option.

All said and told, Im still pissed that I didnt get to finish my BOTP. My Pl Cmd was an a--hole but he had the best intentions and had I not been concerned (along with several docs) with my back spasms, I Would have pushed heavily to complete at least BOTP. 

At any rate, I ended up sitting on PAT for a month. There are, however ways to get yourself off of it. Attachecd postings to CFRC's (although you have to do the leg work, my PO straight up told me he could care less, had no time, if I wanted to call around, go ahead).   which I would have done, but as I said I Was leaving.... 
Anyway.. you do go through hell there. Esp in the days of instructors in Cadpat and recruits not, it was easy to tell who to pick on.

Ive even heard many stories where 2Lts, who have come back to St Jean for SLT have been jacked up by instructor staff, I guess they didnt recognize the thicker line.


Anyway, PAT could use some work at St Jean esp. the only work available was in the QM, and usually only a few got to go. You were not allowed to do much else, even if you asked...  I did a few taskings for the SLTS but only because I had been there once and was helpful..... 

It is a highly negative environment though, and the information flow is particularly bad, and since you have nothign to do even the most devoted recruits/ocdts get worn down hearing about their friends getting screwed all day.


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## sirmckinnon

you said it all, ya anyone who spends time on pat with something broken goes down the spiral eventually


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## lostlittle1

;D
Hummmm PAT Pl...man have I got some stories!!!

I was injured (seriously)  fall 2003 while on basic (NCM) and was recoursed in The beginning of week eight.  I left my family (Husband and Son) to go to basic for a few short months that turned out to be close to eight months.  And yes, all in St Jean

In those eight months I had seen my son once and my Husband twice.  That in itself was hard.  I was in a wheelchair, graduated to crutches, then to a cane, then on 2 feet.  I have not been able to run since.  

Besides having to deal with my (ongoing) injury, yes I am still in and yes the Forces is my life, there were so many other issues I had to deal with while on pat.  The first issue was the negativity.  I found that after crying every single day for 2 or more weeks, and listening to the stories about how you were a dirtbag because you were on PAT, and missing my family, and taking wads of pills, I made a choice.  I could either S**T or GET.  IOW suck it up, get healthy and get on platoon or quit.  I chose to stay.  I also made alot of changes in how I looked at things while on PAT.  I tried to learn everything I could about how things worked, not the stuff they teach you in basic, but how it really works.  How a good attitude gets you farther than a bad one, how to shine my boots properly, how to make one heck of a bed so when I did get back on platoon I would shine.  

I approached new people that would come to pat and try to tell them and guide them on how things worked, where to go , who to talk to, what to do if you needed something...etc... this gave me something to do, i got to meet new people, and it made me learn new things too.

I am not going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you it was all great.  It wasnt.  there were days I did not think I could take one more inspection (4x per week) or days I could not bear to see another graduation that I was not on.  The hardest to watch is always your own platoon.  The hardest days were when I was working at the green desk and have a SGT say to another..."no you can keep the change from the coffee...just give it to the Private, its for her Pat PL Retirement fund."  Yes some people look down on you  some are even ignorant and arrogant enough to say it out loud.  There are some people that I know that are still there (since Sept 2003)  I think they are afraid to move on.  Some, granted, are lazy.  

There are no courses offered on Pat Pl.  I asked repeatedly, the answer was always a firm no.  No ruck marching, no "classtime type" classes.  Nothing.  It's not that the troops don't want it, they just are not allowed.  and to answer the big question "what about reading the QRand Os?  you have to request them, you have to tell them why you want them, and they will try to solve your problem without you looking at them.  but I have read the First Aid Manual 2 doz times.  No we are not allowed to read books, magazines (unless it is CF issued) even library books.  I had to sneak to the library to get a card so I could read at night.   

When I started to walk again I had to wear sneakers with my combats and it was humilitaing, and I did not need and instructor point it out to me in front of the non Pat Troops.  I hated wearing the big yellow "A", I hated the white room.  But I have never been anywhere that I have learned so much about what I am capable of and what others are capable of.

So Now I am here in Borden.  On Pat Pl.  it is nothing like St Jean.  We sit outside in tents.  Play cards.  Have our careers messed with.  
It is h*ll.  Truly H*ll.  

I hope I can make it through this one.  If I can do this, I can do anything.

But with a bad leg I can't do SQ, and without SQ I can't get a QL3 course.  Don't look down on me, us, them.  Most of us are trying our guts out.  If you have not been there you have nothing to say.


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## aesop081

lostlittle1 said:
			
		

> ;D
> Hummmm PAT Pl...man have I got some stories!!!
> 
> I was injured (seriously)   fall 2003 while on basic (NCM) and was recoursed in The beginning of week eight.   I left my family (Husband and Son) to go to basic for a few short months that turned out to be close to eight months.   And yes, all in St Jean
> 
> In those eight months I had seen my son once and my Husband twice.   That in itself was hard.   I was in a wheelchair, graduated to crutches, then to a cane, then on 2 feet.   I have not been able to run since.
> 
> Besides having to deal with my (ongoing) injury, yes I am still in and yes the Forces is my life, there were so many other issues I had to deal with while on pat.   The first issue was the negativity.   I found that after crying every single day for 2 or more weeks, and listening to the stories about how you were a dirtbag because you were on PAT, and missing my family, and taking wads of pills, I made a choice.   I could either S**T or GET.   IOW suck it up, get healthy and get on platoon or quit.   I chose to stay.   I also made alot of changes in how I looked at things while on PAT.   I tried to learn everything I could about how things worked, not the stuff they teach you in basic, but how it really works.   How a good attitude gets you farther than a bad one, how to shine my boots properly, how to make one heck of a bed so when I did get back on platoon I would shine.
> 
> I approached new people that would come to pat and try to tell them and guide them on how things worked, where to go , who to talk to, what to do if you needed something...etc... this gave me something to do, i got to meet new people, and it made me learn new things too.
> 
> I am not going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you it was all great.   It wasnt.   there were days I did not think I could take one more inspection (4x per week) or days I could not bear to see another graduation that I was not on.   The hardest to watch is always your own platoon.   The hardest days were when I was working at the green desk and have a SGT say to another..."no you can keep the change from the coffee...just give it to the Private, its for her Pat PL Retirement fund."   Yes some people look down on you   some are even ignorant and arrogant enough to say it out loud.   There are some people that I know that are still there (since Sept 2003)   I think they are afraid to move on.   Some, granted, are lazy.
> 
> There are no courses offered on Pat Pl.   I asked repeatedly, the answer was always a firm no.   No ruck marching, no "classtime type" classes.   Nothing.   It's not that the troops don't want it, they just are not allowed.   and to answer the big question "what about reading the QRand Os?   you have to request them, you have to tell them why you want them, and they will try to solve your problem without you looking at them.   but I have read the First Aid Manual 2 doz times.   No we are not allowed to read books, magazines (unless it is CF issued) even library books.   I had to sneak to the library to get a card so I could read at night.
> 
> When I started to walk again I had to wear sneakers with my combats and it was humilitaing, and I did not need and instructor point it out to me in front of the non Pat Troops.   I hated wearing the big yellow "A", I hated the white room.   But I have never been anywhere that I have learned so much about what I am capable of and what others are capable of.
> 
> So Now I am here in Borden.   On Pat Pl.   it is nothing like St Jean.   We sit outside in tents.   Play cards.   Have our careers messed with.
> It is h*ll.   Truly H*ll.
> 
> I hope I can make it through this one.   If I can do this, I can do anything.
> 
> But with a bad leg I can't do SQ, and without SQ I can't get a QL3 course.   Don't look down on me, us, them.   Most of us are trying our guts out.   If you have not been there you have nothing to say.



Your story is a familiar one.   I used to have students who ended up in your situation and i sympathise.   PAT has a bad reputation, i'm sure that if you look around , you will see a few examples of the reason why.   This being said, i can olny apologise for the way Senior NCOs behaved in your "green desk cofee fund" example.   Behaviour like this brings discredit upon all NCOs and is deplorable.   I would like to assure you that this is not the standard you should expect from your leadership. There are productive things for PAT personel to do, and if you have requested to do them (i.e. reading regulations manuals) then it is a failiure of leadership to not allow you to do it.  

On that note, i wish you the best of luck, i know it is hard sometimes but stick it out !


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## *Grunt

lostlittle1 said:
			
		

> ;D
> Hummmm PAT Pl...man have I got some stories!!!
> 
> I was injured (seriously)   fall 2003 while on basic (NCM) and was recoursed in The beginning of week eight.   I left my family (Husband and Son) to go to basic for a few short months that turned out to be close to eight months.   And yes, all in St Jean
> 
> In those eight months I had seen my son once and my Husband twice.   That in itself was hard.   I was in a wheelchair, graduated to crutches, then to a cane, then on 2 feet.   I have not been able to run since.
> 
> Besides having to deal with my (ongoing) injury, yes I am still in and yes the Forces is my life, there were so many other issues I had to deal with while on pat.   The first issue was the negativity.   I found that after crying every single day for 2 or more weeks, and listening to the stories about how you were a dirtbag because you were on PAT, and missing my family, and taking wads of pills, I made a choice.   I could either S**T or GET.   IOW suck it up, get healthy and get on platoon or quit.   I chose to stay.   I also made alot of changes in how I looked at things while on PAT.   I tried to learn everything I could about how things worked, not the stuff they teach you in basic, but how it really works.   How a good attitude gets you farther than a bad one, how to shine my boots properly, how to make one heck of a bed so when I did get back on platoon I would shine.
> 
> I approached new people that would come to pat and try to tell them and guide them on how things worked, where to go , who to talk to, what to do if you needed something...etc... this gave me something to do, i got to meet new people, and it made me learn new things too.
> 
> I am not going to blow sunshine up your butt and tell you it was all great.   It wasnt.   there were days I did not think I could take one more inspection (4x per week) or days I could not bear to see another graduation that I was not on.   The hardest to watch is always your own platoon.   The hardest days were when I was working at the green desk and have a SGT say to another..."no you can keep the change from the coffee...just give it to the Private, its for her Pat PL Retirement fund."   Yes some people look down on you   some are even ignorant and arrogant enough to say it out loud.   There are some people that I know that are still there (since Sept 2003)   I think they are afraid to move on.   Some, granted, are lazy.
> 
> There are no courses offered on Pat Pl.   I asked repeatedly, the answer was always a firm no.   No ruck marching, no "classtime type" classes.   Nothing.   It's not that the troops don't want it, they just are not allowed.   and to answer the big question "what about reading the QRand Os?   you have to request them, you have to tell them why you want them, and they will try to solve your problem without you looking at them.   but I have read the First Aid Manual 2 doz times.   No we are not allowed to read books, magazines (unless it is CF issued) even library books.   I had to sneak to the library to get a card so I could read at night.
> 
> When I started to walk again I had to wear sneakers with my combats and it was humilitaing, and I did not need and instructor point it out to me in front of the non Pat Troops.   I hated wearing the big yellow "A", I hated the white room.   But I have never been anywhere that I have learned so much about what I am capable of and what others are capable of.
> 
> So Now I am here in Borden.   On Pat Pl.   it is nothing like St Jean.   We sit outside in tents.   Play cards.   Have our careers messed with.
> It is h*ll.   Truly H*ll.
> 
> I hope I can make it through this one.   If I can do this, I can do anything.
> 
> But with a bad leg I can't do SQ, and without SQ I can't get a QL3 course.   Don't look down on me, us, them.   Most of us are trying our guts out.   If you have not been there you have nothing to say.



Yes your story seems very familar, I was also on PAT PL, in I think it was in May 2004 in St. Jean CFLRS, I know all to well about the countless hours of shinning boots, and staring up at the clock waiting for lunch then supper...ect Except and if you were on PAT when I was you'd remember me, I had to take care of this asain girl that joined our ranks due to contracting the chicken pox. I was volunteered to take care of her, becuase I was immune to it. I had to bring her breakfast, lunch, and dinner..do her luandry, and fetch anything else she required, books, canteen suplies, meds, notes, ect... also I had to check on her every 2 hours during the day. I had no real problem doing any of this, except for the small embarassment of walking from the green halls all the way to the other side of the MEGA and back with a tray from the Caff.

Good times though..I think If your who I think you are I remember you, I remember you had to wear running shoes with your uniform. 

Needless to say PAT Pl was embarassing, degrading, and very frusterating...


----------



## Spooks

PAT atleast at Wainwright is large, and was very stupid. However, it was the people in PAT that made it bad. My course from BMQ arrived in Nov but couldn't get on a course for SQ until March. We sat on PAT, but we had a good handler who took us on PT every day, did VERY basic E&E stuff and even had inspections 4 days a week. 

At the worst part of PAT there were I believe close to 300 of us, with the exception of my wouldbe course, the rest were actual PAT Pls. They would whine and complain about how bad Wainwright was and how they wish they were one course, but come time for PAT Pl to do a (very slow) 5km run, out came the chits, the appointments and everything. They liked being paid to sleep an extra hour compared to those on course, little to no inspections, sleep all day, TV and all that. IMHO, they liked being civvies with benefits. The people who were legit either worked hard to be in shape for the next course so they wouldn't be booted for being unfit. Those who were really injured, they noted that it sucked being injured but they worked to get well. 

There was a guy on our course who actually was happy to be on PAT and was hoping to expire his contract there because he made "a lot of money" there. Those in charge of PAT can't do anything big about the malingerers because they go to the doc and say "Oh...it hurts there, um...I mean there" It's up to the medics to find them because the PAT staff can't override a medical chit even if they think the person is fit.

On the bright side (though a little dated in news), PAT at Wainwright was taken over by a new warrant who started penalizing them for their laziness by removing electronics and allowing them only to come out on weekends and sending more tasking and that. It still is a little slack, but if someone in there wanted to get off of PAT, they'd do the extra to get out. I've seen many people do it, and many also fall through the cracks and disappear. As for being unprepared for courses as for staff, there is also the fact there is only so much training equipment available too because of a tight budget. Can't have 5 courses running if there are only so many weapons for 3 courses.

My four rubles
-Spooks


----------



## SudsyNavy

Hi,

Just a quick question....

I just got accepted for a Naval Weapons Tech position and am heading to St Jeans for BMQ in a few days.  If my Ql3 doesnt start directly afterwards i am aware i go to a PAT platoon, With that said do i go to a naval base or would i stay in St. Jean ?


----------



## Meridian

Usually you leave St Jean.. St Jean is reserved for people waiting for courses there.. as space is limited.. (at least thats how it was when I was there).

BTW...  a private/ordinary seamen trained has a hook, a recruit does not   Just FYI...

Good luck with your career!


----------



## tomas

alright to set this pat issue straight..

ive been on pat in st jean, and ive been on pat at CFB Borden.
first of all. on pat you get treated with respect if you treat people with respect.. do what you are told when an everything is fine.. to be honest the ones that ruined our pat were the VR's becuase they just dont care..t hey wont be soliders so they stopped caring.. the others the ones that got hurt tried damned hard to start the straight and narrow so they could go on course again,. like me many were hurt..
and it sucked but it was what we had to do.

in borden its boring. thought they have instituded a new trainnig division that seems to give us somethings to do during the days.. kinda nice if you are fit you are in it.. and you get to do some nice things like rock climbing and the such.


i also found pat a good wayt o get to know the instructors, sure some treat you alittle less than a fit soldier. because you are slowed due to injury.. but 99.999% of all my instructors got along fine with me.. even had some good times while on late duties, and we could talk like humans.

so before you really rag on pat.. you should decide what kind of person you are.. and how you wiill be seen there.. a slacker who doesnt want to be there.. or someone whos working hard to get off pat


thats about it


----------



## lostlittle1

How Long have you been in Bordom on PAT?


----------



## tomas

ive been on pat in borden for about 2 months now currently on a pilot program for a new training division.


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## alboberino

Hello, it looks like I am going to the Borden in the PAT platoon until my security clearance goes through.  I am getting back in the CF as a Cpl awaiting a remuster to 291 Comm Researcher.  My course is in Kingston in June if I get my security clearance in time.  Would anyone know what I can expect to be doing or staying?  Does anyone know anybody with a similar situation as myself?  Also, is there anywere that I can use the internet if I bring my own laptop on base ? i.e. free wireless.


----------



## Butters

ok, I didn't want to start a new thread here, but my questions follow under this so I decided just to post here.


You sit in a PAT Platoon untill your injurys are fine and healed? Then are you allowed to get back on the course, or do you get dismissed and sent home and have to await another call to go to BMQ? Also what kind of injurys set you back? Aside from the obvious.... like broken bone... any minor injurys will set you back, like a pulled muscle or something?

As for SQ, so if you complete BMQ and there is a waiting period do you get sent home untill you're called in? do you get put on Leave without pay?

*edit* im also getting I have to sit on PAT Platoon for the 4 days before my training starts?


----------



## Thirstyson

Generally, you would wait on PAT plt until your injuries are healed. You would not resume _your_ course, but start a new one. You would not be sent home during this time, unless you take some leave time.

Any injury or illness that would make you miss about 2 days in your course will result in being sent to PAT plt.

In reg force, you will never be put on leave without pay while awaiting a course, being put on PAT plt is common. The exception to this is right after being sworn in, you may get LWOP for a few days before your course starts, after that, you will never be forced to take LWOP.


----------



## Meridian

Usually recruits are recoursed onto whatever week they left (so if you are week 5, you usually pick up again week 5).

The only time this doesnt apply generally (at least that Ive seen) was where it was a PRB recourse that required them to start afresh.


----------



## George Wallace

Meridian

Not always true.  Someone being Recoursed may start all over again on Week One or Two.  It all depends on the students Crse File.  If the Instructors felt the student was really "Switched On" your example may pertain to that circumstance, but if they felt that the student was relatively weak, they may start that student off at the beginning of the next Crse and give them the benefit of that 'extra' experience.

GW


----------



## Meridian

Noted..  Above was just how the people on PAT when I was there were explaining their sitch's to me. ... but as an OCdt, I didnt really see the PATs all that much, and IAP/BOTP is usually always a fresh restart.


----------



## helene_alone

the question have been asked but since the answer was partial...

Where do pat platoon go AFTER BMQ before starting their course? 

Specific: He is in st-jean, will go to gagetown for his combat eng. training. Pat pl will be in gagetown? or in any base?


----------



## Bert

Helen

PAT platoon means "personnel awaiting training" platoon.  Most training bases and units 
have these.

In a perfect world, recruits would go from BMQ, SQ (for army), trades training, and then 
to the first posting as an over-generalization.  The CF does its best to schedule courses 
in a timely sequence but in an organization as large as this, it doesn't always work out very 
well.  There may be delays of several days or months between courses.  In the time between 
initial courses, members may be placed in a PAT platoon and tasked to do various jobs as they
wait.


----------



## helene_alone

ok... all well and fine with me... but where is it supposed to be??


----------



## George Wallace

It'll most likely be at the Engr School in Gagetown, where he will be loaded on the first Crse available.


----------



## Bert

Likely Gagetown.   He may have a travel/posting message provided to him by the CFRC
or will get them in St.Jean later in the course.   More info may be provided to him during 
BMQ weeks 7 to 10.

<Oopps, fast post George!>


----------



## DarthScott

Just finished BMQ  and am heading to Borden for PAT platoon, just wondering if any one can give me  an idea of what the daily schedule is like? Do we get nights or weekends off? and how long till SQ and BMD starts? By the way I'm going Sig Op and my moc starts June 23.

Thanks To any one who can help!!


----------



## Bomber

DarthScott, soon you will see what the "dark side" really is.


----------



## VersuS

They call the pats "PRETC" (Post Recruit Education Training Centre). They do some interesting stuff.. I wasn't part of the unit very long, (I was on PRETC 2 months after basic, I was sent on SQ, then I was part of the PRETC 2 more months before starting my FCS Ql3.

Be prepare for some open lockers inspection (nothing compare to your BMQ, very easy) some PT (PT quality depends on how much effort you put into it). And some parades on friday. They used to have their friday afternoon off I think so much people fucked up and took things for granted that they don'T have them anymore.

It easy to see the "dark side" of the PRETC in Borden, just take it day by day, and keep in mind that your course is not too far in the future. Some people have been on the pats for 1 year. Just ask to have the more training that you can have (driver's course, and the like) and ask for tasking to get rid of the routine....

And be prepared to be sent on a SQ  you'll miss BMQ 

Keep going!


----------



## Schifty

Loll PRETC suck seriously, i have been here during 1 long year, the only thing i know, all staff work at the pretc are all worst soldiers i have ever seen.


----------



## D4rkSt0rm

versus ... you cant know an unity after only 4 seperate month ! you stay a 2 month max consecutivly ... hello !
im agree with schifty ... pretc suck a lot ! im here since over 2 year for NOTHING ! he refused me ewat ... refuse my common law ... refused my driver course ... refused my english course ... and when my father died ... ive need to meet padre for have ONE fucking day off ... 
and were supposed to act like a real soldier when all nco laugh in my face

just two word to say ... FUCK PRETC !!!


----------



## VersuS

I agree with you guyz, PRETC sucks but anyway, but not all NCO were laughing at us. I got days off when my grand father died, I didn't have to fight to have some compensatory leave. If you.ve been there for over two years then you must know that PRETC wasn't always taht bad. Now they got to much people to take care of, and two many privates just didn't do what they should have done. (People going over to the beach on working days, people just dog fucking, staying in their room, not going to PT...)

Maybe I've only been 4 consecutives months on the PRETC but I was in borden for total of 14 months and I had a lot of friends on PRETC so I knew was was hapening. But I agree with you that PRETC suck. 

Which trade are you going to?


----------



## foerestedwarrior

WOW, you guys seem to not know the other side, maby there is a reason your requests were denied. Also, tread softly with what you are saying. I work and live in Borden, and have many close friends that are instructors there.

With he father dieing thing, meeting a Padre is standard. The common law thing, all I can guess is your mean you want to be common law with your girlfriend, that has nothing to do with the military. Refused drivers course/english course. Why were you refused? do you have a drivers license? If you need an english course, chances are you cant take a drivers course in english, the french drivers courses are rare to get. was there spots on either course, do your instructors feel that you are eligible for the course(attitude, aptitude, etc.)

There are always 2 sides to a story, you are a bunch of new privates that see once side of the buck, and piss and moan. If you work hard, do good, you will get farther.


----------



## sigspig

Hi there, 
It's nothing to be on the PAT platoon in Borden....by the way PAT stands for Personnel Awaiting Training...so nothing specific is awaiting for you over there. You might be doing joe jobs here and there or if you are lucky you might get some on job training pertaining to your trade, but I doubt it. By the way, I am an instructor at CFSCE Kingston for the Sig Ops...so I'll be seeing you soon. Heads up....PT every morning at 05:55am, inspections with open locker pretty much every morning as well. We do measure beds, locker layouts, spaces in between hangers, etc...we look for dust and boots must be shiny! From what I hear of my other students is this: boot camp was a breaze, SQ was even easier, but Sig Op Apprentice course is really hard. I don't think it is too demanding myself compared to 17 years ago but hey...oh yeah, you also have your field part to pass at the end of your course...again...from what I hear from my own students they say it's : bloody hell!! You can expect 1 hour sleep per night for 7 nights straight if you are lucky and loose about 10 pounds. Since I have been here I have not seen one course finish with the same amount they started. LOL Not trying to scare you, just giving you a fair heads up to keep working out and stay in shape. Yes we run A LOT. The rest of the school think we are nuts but the way I see it, I'm ?? years old and I can still keep up...actually...I can still outrun young fellows! Nothing wrong with been paid to stay in shape! Good luck on your course in June!!!


----------



## Schifty

Im agree with you sigspig, but on the PAT platoon in Borden, nobody try to keep us in a good shape. I have an exemple for you, in the last month a new major arrived to command the PAT, so the first thing he has change on the PAT was to cut on schedule of the days a lot of time of physical training and have replaced that for stripping and waxing of the floor and i think that is NOT the most important thing we suppose to do in a PAT.

I have done 2 different PAT platoon, Borden and Valcartier, and the PAT at Valcartier is so far better than the PAT at Borden, because at Valcartier we do a lot of PT, field exercice, history course about the canadian army. In Borden we never done an exercice or an training like at valcartier.

Also at the PRETC, last winter, they declare me AWOL because they lost a document(like every time) during the hime i was at valcartier  ???
and when the moment i need to return at Borden I has waiting during one month, because they forget me  :-\ and because they forget me, i cant done my BDT course in time for the sigops course in April last year.


----------



## VersuS

One reason they do not do exercises in Borden is that last year they planned  a 40km snowshow walk over one week (10 k per day, the last day they sent the people skying) and half the people went to MIR to get chits and reasons to not do the march. 10 k par day, nothing easier. 
People think that because they are done with BMQ they don't have to put an effort anymore. Silly.

 Keeping in shape is a personnal thing, don't rely on the army or any course to do it.


----------



## Canadian Sig

Well let me say that as a Sig Op in 2 Brigade you had better get yourself into shape. We have 3 troops in the Sqn and all of them have ex-airborne WO's so pt can be a bitch. You can be an mir commando here but you will pay for it in the long run.

   V.V.V.


----------



## Canadian Sig

Seems like most folks regardless of trade are heading to Borden for their "Pat" time. There is a whole system set up there to process them.


----------



## gun plumber

I'll throw my hat into the ring here.I was in Borden from May of 2002 to April of 2004.I first arrived and was put in PAT Plt,when it was still controlled by the school(CFSEME),and can say that we were the first people to witness PRETC standing up(The originals,if you will).
PRETC and PAT in general sucks.You come out of BMQ,ready for your new life,(or in my case,CT from a reserve unit),and then you wait.It's a little easier on the inspections and PT than BMQ,and generally they try to do interesting stuff to break up your day(notice I said try!).Weekends and nights,for the most part,were off.
If I could offer some advice to all who read this.
Ruck up,or shut up.The more you moan and gripe,the harder its going to be.Make the most out of your time there and work on your weakness.Do more PT to get in better shape,take advantage of the time and do some schooling to improve your mind or pick up a productive hobby.Make sure all of your admin is up to date(Dental,Medical,financial),and most of all,STAY OUT OF THE BARS!This doesn't mean don't drink period.It just means not to drink all your money and all your motivation away.I've seen to many people become alcoholics on PAT because they just don't care anymore.These people either end up:1-On a spin dry course 2-In jail for fighting,impaired driving or AWOL 3-VR'd.And just one observance-Most,not all,but most of the people who get "screwed over" are the ones with the bad attitude or disciplinary problems.think about it.
If you can't take a daily routine with a small helping of discipline,you will not survive your first BE.
Some might say I've been a little cut throat with some of my statements,but that's life troops.Myself and many others have "been there and got the T-shirt"and survived.It's not all fun and games.This is life.If you thought that every day was going to be an adventure,heres your wake up call.
Make the best of a bad situation.It's not permenant,you will leave.There is a better future waiting for you.Use the now to better prepare yourself and the future will be bright.Screw it up,and the future won't be so bright.
And if you don't like it,don't worry.MacDonald's is always looking for fry cooks.


----------



## tomas

for those who dont think pretc does anything.. C coy just got finished a 4 day 34 k hike from collingwood to Meaford...
we do a ton of things like climb rock walls, and unarmed combat. sure it can get repetitive. but to say we dont do anything is just wrong
and the NCMs are not bad if you have a positive attitude and act like a soldier like we should.. we arent recruits anymore its time to stop acting like children and grow up and be soldiers. 

for a background I have been in PRETC since December 2004 , I will be here till about MAY, going on a sigs course. So i have seen a fair bit of Pretc. and yes sometime we get friday afternoons off.. and yes we get nights and weekends off but for fire pickets, but that goes to people who usually screw up.. and trust me there are enough of them here.

Really Pretc is what you make it.. if you think it will suck, then it will.. I have had horrible days where I think its horrible. and I hate it.. the Mad Bomber has his moments where you just wanna club him with a big stick. but really they have our best intentions in mind.. they want to make us soldiers and for that I thank them.


----------



## foerestedwarrior

Tomas said:
			
		

> for those who dont think pretc does anything.. C coy just got finished a 4 day 34 k hike from collingwood to Meaford...
> we do a ton of things like climb rock walls, and unarmed combat. sure it can get repetitive. but to say we dont do anything is just wrong
> and the NCMs are not bad if you have a positive attitude and act like a soldier like we should.. we arent recruits anymore its time to stop acting like children and grow up and be soldiers.



Thank you, exactly on the line of what I said. One of my roomates(a pretc instructor) said that the ones that get screwed outa stuff, are usually the ones dragin ass.


----------



## tomas

thanks.  I just dont like the negitive attitude everyone has here.. they PAY us money to climb walls, and exercise.. where else can you get a sweet deal like that?


----------



## foerestedwarrior

ummmmm welfare? but then you get alot less money, no bennifits, you have to pay to do the sports and activities that you do.

Like jeese, wake up, you joined the military, they dont HAVE to give you all these extras you are complaining about. sort yourselfs out!


----------



## Bull_STR

Tomas said:
			
		

> thanks.   I just dont like the negitive attitude everyone has here.. they PAY us money to climb walls, and exercise.. where else can you get a sweet deal like that?


My thoughts exactly...

I have been doing a lot of reading on this board over the last 4 days.  I have seen a lot of questiions asked and a lot of grip and growl.  As a NEW recruit just getting to leave for Basic I have to be honest some of you are making me more worried about it then I think I should be.

I want to be a Soldier.  A hard working determined, Honest, relieable team member.  I just hope that soem of you that I may run into in the future feel the same way.


----------



## Island Ryhno

Hey are there many armoured guys out there on PRETC or PATS or is the course progression good for them? Also someone mentioned unarmed combat, do you have actual instructors and a specific type say Judo or Combat Sambo etc. I'm wondering because I'm a martial artist and would love to have the ability to practice every day while waiting to go to course  ;D


----------



## tomas

armored do not do pat in borden. they go to gagetown i believe.. and as for unarmed combat. yes we get an unarmed combat instructor to teach it.. though I admit its not judo or anything like that its more self defence. good to know. .may save your life some time. but nothing youd see on tv really...


----------



## Island Ryhno

Yeah, Judo is my sport and it's not like you see on tv either, very practical actually   check out our club website  www.judoclub.ca and thanks for the info!


----------



## dan476

Thread topic is basically self explanatory. I would like to know about PAT in Borden, daily routines, what to look forward to, and what to stay away from.

Thanks.


----------



## D-n-A

Use the Search Funcition.


----------



## dan476

I have Mike, I am not iterested on how it was 6 months ago or a year ago, I am interested on how it is now. Also there is very little info on Borden, most it st Jean and other places


----------



## chrisf

You'll find it doesn't really change... it's PAT... we had a guy with us for a while a year ago on OJT from PAT in Borden, the experience he described is the same I hear from a buddy of mine who's up there now.


----------



## Pea

My friend was in PAT for the months of January and February. It really varied what he did. Some days he had off to do whatever he pleased, others he was supposed to spend the day doing sports/physical fitness. Then they started giving him classes like the history of various army topics. Other days he was tasked with various army units to help with anything they needed. He did tasks such as organzing and counting supplies, or just spending the day doing whatever these units did for the day.

I know thats not much info, but I hope it helps a little.


----------



## NavComm

Can someone tell me what PAT is? I searched the military terms and the acronyms and can't seem to find what you mean by "PAT"?

Thanks


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

_Personnel Awaiting Training_


----------



## NavComm

oooooook thank you very much! maybe Mike will put that in the military terms?  ;D


----------



## Gouki

I'm dying to get into PAT platoon in Borden.. unfortunately it's all up to them.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Why would you ever want to be put in a holding pattern like that??


----------



## Gouki

If anything, just to escape from here and my job.. Yes, I'm that desperate to join the military and have it whisk me away. PAT platoon in Borden would be a step up IMO!


----------



## honestyrules

Being a PAT is not fun, that's for sure. Actually STEVE ,people are trying to ESCAPE PAT as much as you want to ESCAPE YOUR CIVVIE JOB !

The thing is that you get bored and disapointed after a while...

One day, you'll get a day off (not bad). The next day, you might go to the kitchen to be a labor for the cooks.

When i was on PAT (2 month only ,thanks God), the guys upstairs were having hockey tournaments in the middle of the night. The PAT barrack is the craziest on camp!
Remember, if your a good soldier even on PAT, you might get better taskings, and if you have some paperwork to do or requests to put in they'll be better with you if you don't fool around with the staff.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## bhobson

I wonder if that where the gambling phrase....

standing PAT   

came from?


----------



## Gouki

I'll be in PAT platoon in Borden anyhow it would seem, a bit before my SQ and a bit after in the limbo between SQ and QL3 .. looks like I got my wish (a bit watered down albeit - thankfully it would seem) after all


----------



## san

Sounds like a bit of a tease?  You're in ... but you really can't do anything because you're not trained.  It might be nice for someone who has been eagerly awaiting enrollment but you can only handle that for so long.

Best of Luck ....

san


----------



## ArmyGirlfriend19

hey, 

My Fiance is on PAT till oct. 24th and he hates it...he is trying to get OJT...i was wondering if anyone knows the odds of him getting it??? And as well could anyone briefly explain what it is???...thanks jenn


----------



## Gouki

OJT is on the job training..they basically show and train him in what they can and familiarize him in some things. don't think anyone can accurately predict the odds of him getting it cause it depends on a lot of things at the unit


----------



## ArmyGirlfriend19

hey just wanted to say thanks for letting me know...jenn


----------



## Fry

sorry to bring this to life again, but just wondering if there are still high numbers of soldiers in PAT platoons, and what are the odds that if I complete basic, that I'll be stuck in a PAT platoon for a long time?


----------



## P-Free

All depends on when the next course is that you will be loaded on, SQ, MOC training, etc.


----------



## Fry

Yeah, I know, just wondering if there's a bunch of soldiers that have already been waiting to do other courses and are held up in the PAT platoons.


----------



## PteMacPooie

PAT sucks.   I won't dress it up, it just sucks.   I did a year there.   Hard time.
I seen a perfectly good MCpl that was remustering from PPCLI to a tech trade, and after 4 short months he went back to PPCLI. 
I don't even want to drag up those bad memories.   Its a dark ride.
thats it thats all. >


----------



## Kyle

It was PRETC when I was at Borden, and it was awful. We got up at 7AM, went over to T83, went for a run, then when that was done, we went back to our shacks and didn't report back for duty until 1300. Then we alternately sat around at T83 and did nothing, or played baseball until 1500, when we were let off for the day. It was a constant game of trying to fight off boredom. And their staff were inept. They had their administrative work being done by interns fresh out of St. Jean, who had absolutely no experience with the Logistics or Administration system in the military, so inevitably, a lot of things were lost, misfiled, delayed, etc. It was the logistical equivalent of taking a freshly graduated St. Jean recruit and having them working over at Maintenance with minimal supervision. The dysfunctional administrative system therefore caused further delays in people getting on courses, OJT, outside taskings, etc. and contributed to the general sense of uselessness that I'm sure I wasn't alone in experiencing. A lot of troops developped substance abuse problems due to the lack of anything to do and the availability of alcohol. I remember the last weekly parade I did at PRETC, when probably 25% of the people on parade that morning were either hungover, or still drunk. Since people had nothing to do, more than a few ended up getting into trouble with the MPs, because in their boredom, they began doing stupid things to keep themselves occupied. Psychologically, it was a tough go, it really was. I saw people whom I'd known from St. Jean, good guys, doing stupid things because they were bored and drunk, getting injured, or arrested. It bred such an indifference that I started to get jaded and cynical, and were it not for the fact that I was from Barrie, I would have ended up getting pretty depressed. It was mentally and physically draining. Then every so often, they'd offer you a tease - "Well, we have an opening for OJT for a Vehicle Tech in Valcartier," (which both my buddy and I both decided against, because we didn't want to go to Valcartier. Ironically, we're both here now) or "We have OJT available in Aldershot, so come on down to Warrant So-And-So's office if you're interested." You'd rush home, draft up a memo, and the next morning, when you gave him the memo, he'd say, "What's this for?" "Um...The OJT opening, Warrant." "What OJT opening? We don't have any OJT openings anywhere. But I'll take this and hang onto it just in case something comes up." Which generally meant that it would sit on his desk for a few days until he decided to clean up, and then it went into the recycling bin. Yeah, it was pretty rough.


----------



## SierraAir

Baseball?!?!?!


I can't wait!


----------



## Kyle

SierraAir said:
			
		

> Baseball?!?!?!
> 
> 
> I can't wait!



I don't think it's that bad now, because most of the backlog has been cleared up, and they've organised a training programme that keeps you at least somewhat occupied, but when it first opened, they had no idea what to do with 600 privates waiting for courses, so we spent a lot of time doing nothing. See, what they did was combine all the schools' PAT platoons from Borden and Kingston into one big group. CFSEME, CFMSS, CFSAL, CFMPA, CFSCE and CFSATE all shed their PAT platoons and made one, well, at 600 troops, PAT Battalion. Getting fat, lazy, bored, indifferent and depressed. We had guys waiting for a year and a half for their QL3 courses because there was such a backlog. The buddy of mine whom I mentioned in my last post just got posted here in July. He'll be due for his Coproral's hooks before he's done his QL4.

Be thankful: you've been spared that fate...


----------



## Pea

Kyle,

I concur with what you said about PRETC in Borden. I have never been there, but my friend was there this past winter/spring. Now he is on his QL3 in Borden. It really does sound horrible from what I have heard/seen. He has gone from a really responsible, clear thinking guy into a rude, inconsiderate guy. He drinks like a fish, and too has taken up drugs. I never in my life thought he would ever be doing drugs, but he is. I know this isn't just because of being there, he still had a choice and made a bad one. But, it seems the environment there makes this lifestyle way too easy and sounds like it's way too common. I really hate the thought of the people who are going to be serving our country doing stuff like this. Plus, I guess I am just so disappointed in my friend. He is so much better than that. Unfortunately, the environment he is in makes it too easy. Most of the people he knows have these bad habits... Sad I must say!


----------



## PteMacPooie

No, it has not gotten better because of Foxtrot Coy.

Just more injuries, and more Bull-oney.

The only thing that could make it better is if they had a fresh turnover in staff, morale would build and it wouldn't be so bad.


----------



## Bradboy

I know a guy who was in PAT platoon about 2 years ago. He said while he was there he noticed two different types of people. There were people who used their boredom positively and those who used it negatively. He told me that he and his buddies would always find something to do on their down time such as spending time in the gym, playing various sports, etc. He also told me that he knew people who would sit around and drink themselves stupid, only to become fat, lazy, and ultimately useless. So I guess it's all in the type of person you are. I guess you could consider PAT platoon another test of your committment to the CF. Are you willing to wait until your next course and better yourself in the meantime? Or are you going to sit around and whither away into a waste of the CF's time and money? Just a perspective from a new recruit. Cheers.


----------



## dearryan

Kyle said:
			
		

> I don't think it's that bad now, because most of the backlog has been cleared up, and they've organised a training programme that keeps you at least somewhat occupied, but when it first opened, they had no idea what to do with 600 privates waiting for courses, so we spent a lot of time doing nothing. See, what they did was combine all the schools' PAT platoons from Borden and Kingston into one big group. CFSEME, CFMSS, CFSAL, CFMPA, CFSCE and CFSATE all shed their PAT platoons and made one, well, at 600 troops, PAT Battalion. Getting fat, lazy, bored, indifferent and depressed. We had guys waiting for a year and a half for their QL3 courses because there was such a backlog. The buddy of mine whom I mentioned in my last post just got posted here in July. He'll be due for his Coproral's hooks before he's done his QL4.
> 
> Be thankful: you've been spared that fate...





Thats frightening!

R


----------



## Kyle

Bradboy said:
			
		

> I know a guy who was in PAT platoon about 2 years ago. He said while he was there he noticed two different types of people. There were people who used their boredom positively and those who used it negatively. He told me that he and his buddies would always find something to do on their down time such as spending time in the gym, playing various sports, etc. He also told me that he knew people who would sit around and drink themselves stupid, only to become fat, lazy, and ultimately useless. So I guess it's all in the type of person you are. I guess you could consider PAT platoon another test of your committment to the CF. Are you willing to wait until your next course and better yourself in the meantime? Or are you going to sit around and whither away into a waste of the CF's time and money? Just a perspective from a new recruit. Cheers.



Nah, they don't need you to waste their time and money - they that well enough themselves, they don't need our help. :-X

They tried to tell us that the waiting list was intentional, to test our commitment (and it was a test of our commitment, but it sure as heck wasn't intentional), but nobody bought it. What does the Army gain from having you sit around doing nothing for a year? They're paying you, quartering you, patching up your injuries, taking care of your teeth, feeding you and buying your medication, but they're not getting anything out of you; you're not being put to any productive use to get anything done for them. But hey, it's their budget - if they want to waste it, it's up to them. But it really annoyed me when they tried to sell the story that it was deliberate to test my commitment to the Army. No, that what BMQ is intended to do. That really annoyed me. Instead of manning up and saying, 'Sorry, we pulled a bonehead,' they tried to feed us a ridiculous story about it being part of the training. As a result, I know quite a few people who have not renewed their contracts, and several more who don't intend to. And why should they? They were lied to and cheated. They were promised signing bonuses for their civilian qualifications, they were promised bypasses on their occupational training, and instead, they ended up sitting around Borden doing nothing for a year before they went for their QL3 training. And when they eventually did go, they had to go for the entire course. Then when they got to their units, they were told that they weren't entitled to signing bonuses, and should have never been told that they were. What happened, if I remember correctly, is that Borden was telling the recruiting centres that signing bonuses and training bypasses were authorised in such cases, when in reality, they weren't. It was good ol' disorganisation, and the Canadian Army is famous for it.

When Chretien gave the CF a bigger piece of the pie in the 2002-2003 Budget, they decided to immediately hire 6000 new recruits. They figured that they had to hire them while they still had the budget to do so, but didn't take into consideration that somebody had to train those new recruits, and that the majority of them would be going to Borden. And since the previous annual recruiting rate was lower than the retention rate, the schools cut back on the number of courses going through to match the number of recruits coming through. Makes sense - why have ten instructors on staff if you only need three, right? But suddenly, they had on average 75 recruits a week coming from St. Jean. And it's not that easy to just post a few Cpls and M/Cpls from units, because then the units lack the personnel required to be operationally ready. So you have to train more Privates and Corporals to be Corporals and Master Corporals. So now you need more instructors at the Combat Schools in order to teach the Junior Leadership Courses, but again, you can't just pull people away from units and leave the units operationally unprepared. So you have to wait until more Privates are trained and posted to units so that they can replace the Privates who are going to be promoted to Corporal to replace the Corporals who are going to be promoted to Master Corporal and posted to the various schools. So, it's basically just a complete standstill - the schools need trained instructors, but the units can't give them any until they have trained Privates. But the schools can't give the units any more trained Privates until they have more instructors. In my trade, it takes two years of training to become qualified. So it will take at least two years to get a Craftsman qualified to work on his own so that you can take a Corporal off the floor, give him his Master Corporal's leaf, and post him to CFSEME to teach. That's why the backlog is only now starting to clear up. But they obviously didn't take that into consideration when they hired us. They couldn't have. I can't see the Army saying, "Well, they'll be sitting around doing nothing for a year, and then they'll be done their first contract before they're even QL4 qualified. In some trades, they'll be done their second three-year contract before they're QL5 qualified so we'll be paying that lot for six years and not really getting anything out of them, but what the heck, let's hire them anyway. We'll see if we can talk them into signing on for 14 more when their IE is up." And they want to hire 4000 more people by the end of the fiscal year. Apparently, they didn't learn anything last time around. They look at their operational requirements, and say, "We need personnel." so they hire by the thousands. But they don't need personnel, they need _trained_ personnel. A better approach would have been to sit down and say, "What is the maximum number of people that we can train this year, including all PAT?" and based their recruiting number on that, thereby getting the maximum number of personnel into units and eliminating the backlog so that next year, they would be able get people through BMQ, through QL3 and off to a unit to work and be useful without any unnecessary delay.



			
				PteMacPooie said:
			
		

> No, it has not gotten better because of Foxtrot Coy.
> 
> Just more injuries, and more Bull-oney.
> 
> The only thing that could make it better is if they had a fresh turnover in staff, morale would build and it wouldn't be so bad.



*sigh*

I guess some things will never change. Sad, really. Don't worry, though - it's not like that when you get to your unit. Once you're qualified and working in your trade, it gets better. I'm going on to my 5th unit next week (I've worked at 3 R22R Maint., 5e BNS S.I., 5e Bon SG Pon. Veh., 1 R22R Maint. and next week, I'm moving over to 5e Ambulance de Campagne), and none of them have been anything like the crap that I had to put up with at PRETC.


----------



## jmlz87

Just thought I'd post a few things from what I've experienced here in St-Jean being on PAT, after being partially recoursed due to injury. This guide should inform new PAT platoon members on the the processes  involved with FIT and UNFIT personell, daily timings for both, and hopefully provide some advice to reassure you life isn't over and it's just a little obstable in your career path with the Canadian Forces. Remember, life on PAT is totally different than being on platoon, you'll be bunked with a lot of PAR people which may or may not change  your thoughts on BMQ.

So you've been injured, graduated RFT or been recoursed... welcome to PAT (Personell Awaiting Training).

The first step is your PERS File will be forwarded by your platoon staff up the CoC. One of your marching NCOs will pull you aside from a class and take you down to B-129 which houses all of PAT and PAR staff offices as well as the break areas for each platoon. You'll sit down in a room with a civilian who is in charge of assigning you a trailer and bunkspace, after filling out some paperwork. As of Jan 01 2008 you will now move from either Blue or Green Sector to the trailers. Yep, thats right, brand spanking new trailers resembling your local trailer park sans the pickups. Even the bathroom and showers are in trailers. You'll have someone whos doing Duty Escort help pack your bags and lug them down outside near B-129 and into the "trailer park". You will have the trailer number and bunkspace on you from before and you'll find you way to your new home.

Last Updated: 20 Feb 2008
TBC... Bistro gives 20 mins per


----------



## airlady

infact, some grad people are stuck in PAT also just to wait for posting message. Some of them can't accept the fact that their careers being screwed around for months and they choose to VR. The rule also stated that all grad personals were allowed to stay in blue sector and inspection by-pass. However, as per 2 weeks ago, the rule changed due to the grad officers taking over the whole 4th floor, all the grad people of Pat move to the trailers.


----------



## js25

Can you post a picture of the trailers?


----------



## jmlz87

airlady said:
			
		

> infact, some grad people are stuck in PAT also just to wait for posting message. Some of them can't accept the fact that their careers being screwed around for months and they choose to VR. The rule also stated that all grad personals were allowed to stay in blue sector and inspection by-pass. However, as per 2 weeks ago, the rule changed due to the grad officers taking over the whole 4th floor, all the grad people of Pat move to the trailers.



Some of the graduate recruits and officers are here awaiting their posting message to where they will end up going from here, either PRETC (kinda like PAT) in Borden or to their new unit  to commence the 2nd phase of their training. From what I understand, RFT got kicked off the 4th floor despite having the PSP staff complain there were too many injuries from climbing 12 flights of stairs. So now the grad officers working on their 2nd language training are moving back to 4th floor and RFT back to 12th.


----------



## jmlz87

js25 said:
			
		

> Can you post a picture of the trailers?



Due to policy, I can not post a picture of inside the trailers.
REF: Facebook/MySpace/Hi5 Online Memo


----------



## Pea

RFT being on the 12th floor is a good thing anyways. Climbing 12 flights of stairs 3-5 times a day is great for a person's fitness level.


----------



## RTaylor

There a MIR on any of those floors? Because I know that some of the RFT trainees might need it 1/4 of the way up  ;D


----------



## Pea

RTaylor said:
			
		

> There a MIR on any of those floors? Because I know that some of the RFT trainees might need it 1/4 of the way up  ;D



You'd be surprised at the difference that program causes for an individual. I've seen some enter the program at 300+ lbs, and graduate from BMQ 100+ lbs lighter, having no problems at all with the express test. (and doing quite well on it too!)


----------



## RTaylor

Hehe I was just teasing, the RTF is an amazing addition to the recruitment and training process   I may end up on it myself (just being honest with myself hehe).


----------



## benny88

RTaylor said:
			
		

> I may end up on it myself (just being honest with myself hehe).



    I wouldn't be so cavalier about it. If you think theres any chance you might fail, get off the computer and go run. You don't wanna be on RFT if you can help it.


----------



## aesop081

RTaylor said:
			
		

> Hehe I was just teasing, the RTF is an amazing addition to the recruitment and training process   *I may end up on it myself * (just being honest with myself hehe).



Good attitude.


----------



## Infanteer

RTaylor said:
			
		

> Hehe I was just teasing, the RTF is an amazing addition to the recruitment and training process   I may end up on it myself (just being honest with myself hehe).



Hehe.  Stay at home, because it makes too much paperwork for me.  Hehe.


----------



## RTaylor

im on the PC now because I work at a call center, and to be honest I'm scaling back my position to a part time hopefully starting Monday. Sitting on my rear for here for 10hours a day on the phone + breaks, travelling for another 2, and so forth doesnt leave me with a lot of time at the moment (plus taking care of my 3 1/2 year old before I come to work the night shift.

Im not in terrible shape, and getting some cardio is the only real work I need at the moment. I have been haulin ass on the weights alot (well, basement flooded a week ago, still mopping it out  :crybaby:  ) so I'm positive when I can get out to do some jogging I'll be in decent enough shape to pass the tests.

Although I may seem like I'm lol'ing about the RFT, I really do NOT want to be on it in any way shape nor form...it increases my BMQ time and time away  from my wife, 3 1/2 year old (well, nearing 4) son, and my baby that is due the end of May (hooray!!). I'm just trying to put a bright spin on it, because being a realistic type of guy something may go wrong and I may get on it (Doom and Gloom outlook sometimes).


----------



## derael

Going to PAT when I stress fractured my foot by far was the worst experience at St-Jean. Granted this was when PAT/PAR was ridiculously big. Although I was only there a week. Thanks to the good doctor and the course 1 week behind my last. 

All I can say for those who end up on PAT is keep your chin up. It sucks leaving your mates on your last platoon, but as you will find out quickly; you make many new friends on your next course. Theres a lot of downers on PAT and PAR alike. Ignore them, work on yourself, stay motivated. It's easy to get down on yourself hanging around these types, so stay focused and don't let it happen. I'm not saying there's not good people in PAT...there's just a lot of downers around those parts.


----------



## aesop081

RTaylor said:
			
		

> im on the PC now because I work at a call center, and to be honest I'm scaling back my position to a part time hopefully starting Monday. Sitting on my rear for here for 10hours a day on the phone + breaks, travelling for another 2, and so forth doesnt leave me with a lot of time at the moment (plus taking care of my 3 1/2 year old before I come to work the night shift.



This post is not in any way intended to slag you.......

We're all busy. I understand how it can be hard to find the time for exercise. I sit in an aircraft seat for 10 hours, preceeded by sitting in briefings for 2  and a half hours before and followed by a bit more after the flight. When i get home i still have all the normal home jobs to do. So trust me when i say that i understand where you are comming from. That being said, be smart and find the time. Like you said, RFT means you are there longer than you have to and it adds alot of stress to your life that you have in your power to avoid.

Good luck with the upcoming family addition


----------



## RTaylor

Hell yeah, being on a RFT means you may also get put on PAT which can extend the stay without the family. Definitely something to avoid.

My brother in law is awaiting his Artillery course now, he says that counting chains and putting them on vehicles gets pretty repetivite


----------



## Crimson

PAT in St. Jean was the worst experience ever. You are treated like the lowest life form just for being there regardless of why you are there nor how you behave while there. You bear the scarlet letter "A" so that all may be witness to your disgrace. ("F" for those Francophones out there.) I left when the trailers were just being started so I didn't have to go through that but it really was miserable.

Keep focused on the goal and realize that no matter what, it's really just a short period relative to your career. With that being said, I made friends while there and I enjoyed my second platoon more than my original. 

Now I was totally unaware how much time I would be in "limbo" from the start of BMQ. I've been living in the shacks for over 16 months now and it could be another 12 or more before I get to my actual posting.(mostly due to my particular trade -291)  I thought that I would go from BMQ to my QL3 course and get a place to stay during that course. Not so! That's been the most unexpected part of all of this. Waiting on PRETC was almost as bad as PAT. Waiting for courses seems interminable. Some folks get to PRETC only to find that there is a 1 year wait list for the next course for their trade. 

Try to keep busy and go on taskings. Take courses when offered.  

One last thing, I know more than a few folks who fudged a little to get off the unfit list and get back on platoon. One guy in particular got on course only to go back to PAT after the first run since he just wasn't physically ready yet. If he had waited a bit longer he may not have re-injured himself. Be realistic with regards to your healing. Several others have had the same issues happen several times. Going back too soon could be the end of your training. It's better to have to release for 6 months and come back fully healed and with time to build back your fitness than to permanently damage yourself and no longer be employable in the military. 

keep your chin up. It's worth it.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I am betting life in a FOB is worse than life as a PAT.  Something to keep in mind....


----------



## Astrodog

I think the 'F' is for Finissantes (SP?) aka the Franco grads.


----------



## chris the merc

benny88 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be so cavalier about it. If you think theres any chance you might fail, get off the computer and go run. You don't wanna be on RFT if you can help it.



Why? Are the RFT staff like the DB staff?  ;D


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Atleast waiting for MOC to kick in is better than sitting outside waiting to get your acceptance for BMQ like me at the present...anyone want to trade sitting outside looking in with inside looking around?

 ;D


----------



## xmarcx

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Atleast waiting for MOC to kick in is better than sitting outside waiting to get your acceptance for BMQ like me at the present...anyone want to trade sitting outside looking in with inside looking around?
> 
> ;D



There's nothing quite like being bored to death and completely unemployed, on the opposite side of the country from all your family and friends and loved ones. Enjoy civvie street while you're still on it, the Army is a great go most of the time, but you're going to spend a lot of nights cuddled up under a fire blanket dreaming of home in the near future!


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Well i'm already unemployed, and living in the living room of my sister. So i'm ready to upgrade to anything the CF have to offer me at this point in time.



 Does sitting in PAT count on your time served?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

yes it does but...don't aim for that for the love of fuck.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Well my intentions aren't for getting part way into the MOC without getting stationed if that's what you mean... I done well enough on CFAT to qualify for all 3 choices that we're presented to me in the rank of Artillery,Sig Op,Ammo Tech. Although the RO basically said to go with the flow and due to attrition rates i could end up with something not even listed. 

 Eiher way i'm excited and hopefully get my thumbs up soon.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Maybe I misread your post.  Did you mean PAT Platoon at CFLRS (Basic Training in St-Jean) or PAT while awaiting your MOC course?


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Maybe I misread your post.  Did you mean PAT Platoon at CFLRS (Basic Training in St-Jean) or PAT while awaiting your MOC course?



 I was referring to being stuck in PAT awaiting MOC. It sounded like some folks are sitting around a while waiting for a spot in thier field of choice and was curious if that time is considered on your service record? I'm still doing tons of reading on this site and trying wade through the usefull info while i'm waiting for my phone call.


----------



## Jorkapp

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> I was referring to being stuck in PAT awaiting MOC. It sounded like some folks are sitting around a while waiting for a spot in thier field of choice and was curious if that time is considered on your service record? I'm still doing tons of reading on this site and trying wade through the usefull info while i'm waiting for my phone call.



It counts. It's paid, pensionable time.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Thanks for the clarification and cheers.


----------



## sharki9876

Does this concern a Reservist?

Thank you,

Philip


----------



## Nfld Sapper

PAT = Personal Awaiting Training...


----------



## sharki9876

Is this only for Regular Force?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Yes and No..it will depend on the unit.....

As an example my Regiment next training year will be setting up an "Indoctrination Troop" to gather all the no Engineer qualified troops and get them ready for their trades course...


----------



## RedcapCrusader

sharki9876 said:
			
		

> Is this only for Regular Force?



Pretty much. Personnel Awaiting Training sections or platoons in the Reg Force are used to keep members busy while they await the start of their next course as it could be weeks or months before the next available serial. It is simply a "Holding Platoon" where PT is conducted, usual jobs like cleaning shacks and inspections, and ongoing training of weapons, drill, whatever the PAT Staff can come up with. Usually RegF PAT are found at training schools not at units, sometimes once a mbr has completed a certain amount of training (usually their trades course), they are sent back to their units between courses so they can perform their jobs.

For the Reserves, some units have PAT Sections/Platoons but it is simply a place where they keep all recruits that have yet to complete their basic qualifications simply for ease of delivering training information and refresher training on drill, C7, uniforms - very basic stuff. Some units don't though, Friend of mine polished brass parade markers and other odd jobs around the Armoury almost every Wednesday night for a month until he started BMQ. That's about it.


----------



## sharki9876

Thank you for the info. Looks like no one Reserve unit does everything the same.  :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: :bullet: :bullet:


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

As it is the place they park you when they don't know what to do with you, it gave rise to the expression "Just sit pat, OK!".


----------



## Flatliner

I got my posting message for where I'll be headed after I finish bmq on the 26th and they have me going to PSTC Kingston. I'm assuming it'll be PAT until room opens up at the CFSCE. Has anyone here ever been posted there that can give me some ideas what it's like? 

All I've been able to find out is that it's generally where deployment training and courses like psyops are taken. I open this hasn't been asked before, I searched around quite a bit but couldn't find much and I'm the only recruit from both graduating platoons heading there.


----------



## C_Rey88

Hey everyone, I was just curious if anyone had any info on when the next SQ dates are. I'm slated to graduate BMQ on June 2nd, and know that I need to complete SQ and driver training before heading to CFSME, and from what I've been told their is a class starting in July. My question: is there a chance I wont be on PAT and just go right through?


----------



## OldCrow937

So if you get posted to a PAT unit it will be up to your training WO to load you into said SQ course , factors that might get in the way of this would be A) the course is already loaded B) There are others ahead of your waiting for said SQ C) IF a & b are true then you will be on PAT until the next course comes around.

Don't be in a hurry , your SQ will happen and all subsequent training will come your way....

I was stuck on PAT for 6 months waiting for my Top secret security clearance it was a good opportunity to better yourself by getting to know more about the workings of the CF and to physically prepare yourself to make SQ easier , get into even better shape !


----------



## donaldk

And to add, PAT can have interesting GD tasks waiting for someone to volunteer -- let your PAT chain of command (CoC) know if you have a desired task to go on before they assign one you don't want - or make you sit around bored.  For an upcoming ex, an exercise in Gagetown needed extra MSVS qualified 404 drivers on short notice.  My brother overhead of the situation and asked his PAT staff about the ex. He was attached out to the ex within the week to get MSVS training and be added to the MSVS driver pool.  That got my brother out of the PAT holding area for two months on a tasking he enjoyed ad got bonus training out of it.  Before this he was getting way to miserable due silly odd jobs; but it was his fault he wasn't properly leveraging his situation at PAT and engaging his CoC.

For those unassigned, if you are a gym/PT rat, PAT is a good spot to get the cardio and strength a major make-over.


----------



## C_Rey88

Thanks for the info! I just thought it was meaningless task mostly but nice to know I can do other things too.


----------



## jat15

So I am a rather fresh recruit from basic training and am currently awaiting my course to start in July. Apart from cleaning and other odd-jobs I have a fair amount of free time during my time at work.

I have regular access to a computer with DWAN access and am looking for courses that will look good on my PDR (PER?), or just courses that are mandatory for most members to complete so I won't need to do them for a while once I'm trained. 

So far I've only done the WHMIS course. I'm a met tech.


----------



## DAA

DLN is your friend.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-elearning/dln.page


----------



## mkil

Why not submit an ILP and get funding for some distance university courses? If that is a route you ever want to take, it would be a great use of time.


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## sidemount

Doent have to be just university...a guy in my last shop did some certified accounting courses


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## MedCorps

There are the Individual Battle Task Standard (IBTS) that are on DWAN - DLN.  Not exciting after doing them 10 times, but might be interesting for a new Avr who is seeing the material for the first time.  The ones online are: (read in Name / Individual Standards Level / Length of time qualification is good for) 


CBRN Theory	                IS1	36 months
LOAC/Code of Conduct	IS3	24 months
The Use of Force	        IS3	24 months
Apply Media Awareness	IS2	36 months
Recognize AFV and Aircraft	IS3	24 months
Negotiate and Investigate 	IS1	24 months
Apply Stress Management	IS3	24 months
Apply Preventive Medicine	IS2	36 months
Information Security	        IS2	24 months
Conduct after Capture        IS1	24 months

Enjoy... 

MC


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## Eye In The Sky

Not something that will get you a MITE code on your MPRR, but there is also the RCAF Weather Handbook and workbook available.   ;D


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## Deleted member 89807

Hi guys,

I'm leaving for pat platoon awaiting ql3 for combat engineer next week. I was told there were no joining instructions. I am driving myself in a pmov from Nfld to gagetown. I have no kit issued yet and it's been a couple years since I did bmq and bmq-l in the reserves. Now reg force. 

What should I bring with me? Should I bother with much civilian clothes and such? 

Thanks


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## Leeworthy

Good morning. You will be on pat until you are course loaded for your ql3 course. I would bring enough civie clothes with you to wear until you get kitted. Usually within the first few days of being on pat. You will also need civie clothes for your locker inspections and layout. Civie shorts for pt, civie pt shirts, dress pants, and dress shirts. Other than that its really all you need layout wise. 

Once you get on pat, everything will be explained to you as to what's happening, when the next courses are running etc


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## krimynal

congrats on the position  !


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## Deleted member 89807

krimynal said:
			
		

> congrats on the position  !



thanks i'm looking forward to it. Even better that I don't have to redo basic again and get to go directly to ql3. I've been curious. My VIE is four years. At the end of that do they reevaluate my work to decide whether or not to offer me another contract? Obviously I plan on being dedicated to the armed forces and doing my absolute best, just curious as to how often someone who wants to continue serving would get denied that option?


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## mariomike

Gsc023 said:
			
		

> My VIE is four years. At the end of that do they reevaluate my work to decide whether or not to offer me another contract?



You can search the Terms of Service ( TOS ) discussions.

This is one of many,
http://army.ca/forums/threads/114939/post-1306987.html#msg1306987

See also,

TERMS of SERVICE

A TOS is a contract between a member and the Canadian Forces to provide military service until lawfully released.
The Canadian Forces offers its Regular Force members four different Terms of Service contracts.
1. Variable Initial Engagement Contract
When Regular Force members first join the Canadian Forces they sign an initial contract, which is
called the Variable Initial Engagement (VIE).
This contract can range in length from three to nine years not including subsidized training or
education. The length varies depending on the occupation, the needs of each occupation, and the
training time that is required for that occupation.
2. Indefinite Period of Service contract
After the Variable Initial Engagement has been completed, if members decide to continue their
military career they are provided with an Indefinite Period of Service contract or a Continuing
Engagement contract.
An Indefinite Period of Service (IPS) is a contract where service is extended until he/she is legally
released. (60th birthday).
3. Intermediate Engagement 25yr
An Intermediate Engagement 25 Year (IE25) is a fixed period of service in the Regular Force of 25
years of continuous service, followed by an IPS until he/she is legally released.
4. Continuing Engagement Contract
A Continuing Engagement (CE) refers to a fixed period of service of variable duration that can be
offered as an extension of any term of service until he/she is legally released.
https://www.familyforce.ca/sites/London/EN/Documents/CF-101%20for%20Civilians%20EN.pdf


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## Deleted member 89807

mariomike said:
			
		

> You can search the Terms of Service ( TOS ) discussions.
> 
> This is one of many,
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/114939/post-1306987.html#msg1306987
> 
> See also,
> 
> TERMS of SERVICE
> 
> A TOS is a contract between a member and the Canadian Forces to provide military service until lawfully released.
> The Canadian Forces offers its Regular Force members four different Terms of Service contracts.
> 1. Variable Initial Engagement Contract
> When Regular Force members first join the Canadian Forces they sign an initial contract, which is
> called the Variable Initial Engagement (VIE).
> This contract can range in length from three to nine years not including subsidized training or
> education. The length varies depending on the occupation, the needs of each occupation, and the
> training time that is required for that occupation.
> 2. Indefinite Period of Service contract
> After the Variable Initial Engagement has been completed, if members decide to continue their
> military career they are provided with an Indefinite Period of Service contract or a Continuing
> Engagement contract.
> An Indefinite Period of Service (IPS) is a contract where service is extended until he/she is legally
> released. (60th birthday).
> 3. Intermediate Engagement 25yr
> An Intermediate Engagement 25 Year (IE25) is a fixed period of service in the Regular Force of 25
> years of continuous service, followed by an IPS until he/she is legally released.
> 4. Continuing Engagement Contract
> A Continuing Engagement (CE) refers to a fixed period of service of variable duration that can be
> offered as an extension of any term of service until he/she is legally released.
> https://www.familyforce.ca/sites/London/EN/Documents/CF-101%20for%20Civilians%20EN.pdf



thanks

" 12 months prior to the VIE expiring, if the member is deemed suitable for further TOS,"

what makes a member deemed suitable? what kind of reasons would a member be considered unsuitable?


----------



## mariomike

Gsc023 said:
			
		

> thanks



You are welcome. Good luck.  



			
				Gsc023 said:
			
		

> what makes a member deemed suitable? what kind of reasons would a member be considered unsuitable?



Original Poster: Gsc023 

Service Contracts 
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/122960.0.html
"what are the chances of not being offered another contract at the end of these four years? Or will I always have the option of staying in if I want to?"

Reply to Gsc023,



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> If you are not meeting your obligations and or subject to administrative measures (ie; less than a stellar performer or a discipline/administrative problem), your future Terms of Service are pretty much a given and come at regular intervals.
> 
> Do your job, do what is asked of you, put your best effort forward and go above and beyond when the opportunity presents itself and you'll have nothing to worry about.


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## Deleted member 89807

Do I have to wait 12 months before my vie ends to sign a IE25. Or can I request to sign one once posted to a unit. 

I would like to sign it asap if I could for a better sense of job security, and not to be left standing after four years of service.

Thanks


----------



## Deleted member 89807

I understand that I would have to put every effort into my job in the forces. Which I plan on doing.

I'm just wondering if it is a common thing to see someone who wants to continue serving not receive a ce or ie25 offer?


----------



## MJP

Gsc023 said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering if it is a common thing to see someone who wants to continue serving not receive a ce or ie25 offer?



It is very very rare not to get an offer, haven't seen it yet and I deal in a ton of TOS offers.


----------



## mariomike

Gsc023 said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering if it is a common thing to see someone who wants to continue serving not receive a ce or ie25 offer?



Did you not read what DAA told you in the "Service Contracts" thread you started?

Original Poster: Gsc023 

Service Contracts 
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/122960.0.html
"what are the chances of not being offered another contract at the end of these four years? Or will I always have the option of staying in if I want to?"

Reply to Gsc023,

Quote from: DAA on May 05, 2016, 14:41:26
If you are not meeting your obligations and or subject to administrative measures (ie; less than a stellar performer or a discipline/administrative problem), your future Terms of Service are pretty much a given and come at regular intervals.
Do your job, do what is asked of you, put your best effort forward and go above and beyond when the opportunity presents itself and you'll have nothing to worry about.




			
				Gsc023 said:
			
		

> I am now 25 and want to do my full 25 years before.mandatory retirement,



Who told you retirement is mandatory after 25 years? 

The good news for you is the Compulsory Retirement Age ( CRA ) is 60.  

Follow DAA's advice, and you can stay in for the whole ride.


----------



## Deleted member 89807

mariomike said:
			
		

> Did you not read what DAA told you in the "Service Contracts" thread you started?
> 
> Original Poster: Gsc023
> 
> Service Contracts
> http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/122960.0.html
> "what are the chances of not being offered another contract at the end of these four years? Or will I always have the option of staying in if I want to?"
> 
> Reply to Gsc023,
> 
> Quote from: DAA on May 05, 2016, 14:41:26
> If you are not meeting your obligations and or subject to administrative measures (ie; less than a stellar performer or a discipline/administrative problem), your future Terms of Service are pretty much a given and come at regular intervals.
> Do your job, do what is asked of you, put your best effort forward and go above and beyond when the opportunity presents itself and you'll have nothing to worry about.
> 
> 
> Who told you retirement is mandatory after 25 years?
> 
> The good news for you is the Compulsory Retirement Age ( CRA ) is 60.
> 
> Follow DAA's advice, and you can stay in for the whole ride.



Yes I read what DAA said. I didn't have any trouble understanding that. I know that you "shouldn't" have anything to worry about if you go above and beyond etc.  My question was more relating to whether or not getting another offer was a competitive thing; based on a certain number of contracts per year or unit etc. Would I have to stand out above everyone else kind of thing just to stand a chance. 

Thanks MJP for you response, its more along the lines of what I was looking for. I intend to be the best there can be if I can help it, I was just concerned about being able to have a sense of job security and not be left looking for another career after my VIE.

Mariomike - my recruiter actually told me the retirement age was 54, that is my misunderstanding I guess.


----------



## mariomike

Gsc023 said:
			
		

> Mariomike - my recruiter actually told me the retirement age was 54, that is my misunderstanding I guess.



Not to contradict what Recruiting told you, but there is a lot of discussion about Compulsory Retirement Age ( CRA 60 ) on here, if interested,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca++cra&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=acswV9mpFIiN8Qewy66gCw&gws_rd=ssl

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


----------



## Deleted member 89807

On pat platoon, are you free to do as you wish evenings and weekends or are you told to stay on the base


----------



## mariomike

Gsc023 said:
			
		

> On pat platoon, are you free to do as you wish evenings and weekends or are you told to stay on the base



"Is PAT Platoon like M-F 9-5? I'm asking that since I could possibly drive home on the weekends..."
http://army.ca/forums/threads/99608.0

"PAT does get almost all of their weekends off, however most major holidays they work as duty platoon, like Easter/Thanksgiving/Canada Day.  PAT also has to have 24 hr firepicket and works 24 hours at the green desk during the week, as well as being tasked everywhere on base all week."
http://army.ca/forums/threads/79582/post-760551.html#msg760551

"My husband graduates BMQ this week and will be shipped off to Borden and put on a PAT platoon until his training starts (next training course starts on Sept 7th for Supply Techs).  I'm curious if he'll be able to get any kind of leave and if on his first weekend (he arrives on Friday) if he'll be permitted to come home this weekend."
http://army.ca/forums/threads/93156.55;wap2

"Will I be able to see her after work during the week?  And maybe stay with her on weekends?"
http://army.ca/forums/threads/25824.105;wap2

"Can you bugger-off on the weekends to do things or even during the weekday so long as your responsibilities with regards to living quarters and physical fitness are kept up?"
http://army.ca/forums/threads/94005.20;wap2

"PAT platoon who basically had every evening and weekend to themselves."
http://army.ca/forums/threads/79582.20;wap2

etc...


----------



## sarahsmom

As with most things in the military, it depends.
In Borden, we were generally free to do as we wished in the evenings and weekends. However we couldn't go outside the geographic area (which for Borden was no further south than Vaughn Mills, and maybe Orillia in the North, Wasaga Beach in the west). I think it was 75 or 100km?
Same for weekends with no leave pass. If you wanted to go to Toronto you had to put in a leave pass with your location.


----------



## Windaroso

If I can give anyone advice while they are on Pat Platoon (coming from someone who left Bordens Pat Platoon to do OJE in my hometown thankfully), volunteer for whatever tasks are available, it makes Pat PL breeze by. There's nothing worse then sitting in front of a computer as a new member of the forces, with no actual task to do on the computer. You can only play so many games of solitaire and check your Facebook so often lol.
Get yourself out there, some of the tasks are actually fun  [

Cheers and Good Luck!


----------



## Scuba_Dave

Random question...And I'm assuming the answer is yes, however having never been there I just have to ask and check. Is there a PAT Pl at CFB Shilo?


----------



## Bbmoveup

Hey, I have a questions as I have gotten different answers from
current members and also recruiting.

I ship off at the end of the month for basic and then after that I have to wait for my security clearance (I’m comms research) now will they ship me on PAT to the other side of the country or do they now take in to consideration about TD or something at your close to home base? 

It would be nice to stay with my wife and kids and work at the local base (CFB Trenton) but if not that’s what it is. 

Thanks in advance, if I should have posted in comms research please move.


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