# Kabul health/lungs concern



## abimopectore (22 Oct 2005)

When Canadians started their tours in Afghanistan there were serious warnings about fecal matter and other air-born nasty things floating around. Germans and Brits have done their studies at the time and said that it is a serious problem. Our experts did theirs and said that there is not problem. They did their tests around Kabul (in stationary conditions). All the soldiers did their job walking and driving through the dust clouds. Then it was said that concerns will be included/written down in their med files.
Does anyone know about any health problems/concerns/patterns that soldiers are coming with after the tours in Afghanistan?


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## Gunner98 (22 Oct 2005)

Can you cite any references to support your statement,"Germans and Brits have done their studies at the time and said that it is a serious problem."  DND's published info includes:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Feature_Story/2004/jan04/16_f_e.asp

"A review of the scientific evidence showed that feces in dust is not recognized as an inhalation hazard. Moreover, discussions with scientific experts in Canada concluded that a person breathing in microbes in fecal material in the dust would not be at risk for an infection. Reasons for this lack of infectious risk include:

- the vast majority of microbes in our environment are not harmful to humans;

- most of the microbes in fecal material are no longer alive, e.g. having been killed by the ultraviolet light of the sun or the very low environmental humidity; 

- The body has numerous mechanisms to protect itself against environmental organisms; and 

- The microbes in fecal matter that do produce infection enter the body through the digestive system (swallowing) and not through the respiratory system (breathing). 

Given no medical concern that such microbes present a hazard, the EIHH SSTs did not include testing for fecal microbes in dust as part of their specimen collection or analysis."


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## MadNad (24 Oct 2005)

I deployed to Kabul, to build up the site.

I know that some people got sick (Including me) prior to the deployment of the full TF. But most of the time it was due to bad condition. We did not have showers and all accomodations for the first 2 weeks. We did have to use a lot of alcool hand cleaner like they used in hospital. And we were warned by the Pmed that went with us about the risk of dirt and dust. Some of us got, what they called nicely'The Kabul Bug' to say nicely you had to spend about 24Hrs very closed to a Blue Rocket (when Available). Personnally, after the return from there we only heard about minor stomach problems, but nothing that stayed on the long run. Could have been due to change of diet, IMP's and the curry spice that we had in every meals after the 'Chip Wagon' was setup. Returning home with normal food 'Mcdonald and Tim Horton' was quite hard on our stomach HAHAHAHAHA.

But i did not hear about any major sick peoples from our crew.


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## abimopectore (24 Oct 2005)

MadNad - great info - thank you very much.

Gunner98 - great "party line" obviously you were not there. 

You want some "scientific" proof - been there, spoken to the German and British doctors.

Cheers


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## Gunner98 (24 Oct 2005)

abimopectore says, "Germans and Brits have done their studies at the time and said that it is a serious problem."  Then questions where I have been.  Goes on to state "Been there spoken to..."  What happened to those studies.  Or is it "obvious" that you want us to take you at your word.  

No, I wasn't in Afghanistan but the conspriacy mongers are everywhere. I just spent 7 weeks in Wainwright where we had several outbreaks of GI illnesses.  They did not last for 24 hours, more like 7 days on IV and Gravol.  If you are looking for reasons for the Kabul Bug or the Cornwallis or Mega Crud or the Gagetown Gripe, it is simply personal hygiene issues brought on by people not washing their hands before touching food, especially fruit.


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## KevinB (25 Oct 2005)

Well I for one amongst others I know have fecces and urine splashed/poured and sprayed on us during patrols -- one of our guys had a chamberpot bucket tossed on him at night - he was covered throughout the patrol.

 Some of us got sick - but for air quality I had a lot worse at the Kelowna house fires...


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## Infanteer (25 Oct 2005)

Considering armies have campaigned throughout Afghanistan for centuries, I'm sure it is not some biological deathbed awaiting to kill any foreigner....


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## abimopectore (25 Oct 2005)

dear Gunner98,

for someone working in one of the "healping professions" (the red cross thing on the picture?) you do not exude much compassion
if I remember correctly, your scientific world said that there was no problem with the use of agent orange?  
Cheers


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Oct 2005)

What kind of STUPID analogy is that?.....let me spell this out for ya, relevant facts to your question are what is required here.
Otherwise pack your chute.....


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## geo (25 Oct 2005)

Abimopectore.
Do you have any reference to those Brit & German studies?
You have to provide us with a little bit of meat if you want us to provide you with some detective legwork

Have a nice day!


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## Gunner98 (25 Oct 2005)

Abimopectore

All of us helping professionals are the ones who do the studies and serve right alongside the doubters like you. The DND-study is the "party-line", produced by uniformed people just like you and published in the public domain. So I provided it for a baseline to compare it to yours, which you are yet to produce.   I have a lot of compassion and am one of those there to help when people forget to wash their hands and wonder why they are sick or don't wear their protective gear and get hurt. 

I think MGen Leslie said it best on CTV in Jan 2004 @ http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1074190818826_69600018?s_name= _(profanity is a direct quote so I won't disguise it.)_

"He also tried to reassure the troops that their health should not have been adversely affected by pollutants in the air around Kabul, trying to dispell a rumour that one-third of pollutants in the air consist of fecal dust. "There's been 400 air samplings taken and nothing significant has been found," Leslie stressed.
"The urban myth that the air is composed of 30 per cent fecal matter is bullshit." That didn't stop one soldier from later asking Leslie whether concerns about the air quality will be written into their official medical records. "Everyone who is here will get something put in your medical files, absolutely everybody," assured Leslie. "I'm like you, I'm kind of interested in this issue as well," he added.
"So if it goes on my file, it's going to go on yours."

So I ask is it recorded on your medical or personnel file?   Anyone else checked their files lately?


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## geo (25 Oct 2005)

There will be a notation on your file that you served in Kabul between such a date and such a date.... why should there be more.
If it is determined at a later date that members who have served in Kabul or Kandahar were exposed to toxins and that they are at risk..... that entry alone should be adequate.

Is there reason to put an entry that says; maybe, possibly or there is a chance that ?
it would be a meaningless & possibly false entry liable to confuse the staff weenies that would deal with your file...

IMHO


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## armyvern (25 Oct 2005)

MadNad said:
			
		

> I know that some people got sick (Including me) prior to the deployment of the full TF. But most of the time it was due to bad condition. We did not have showers and all accomodations for the first 2 weeks. We did have to use a lot of alcool hand cleaner like they used in hospital. And we were warned by the Pmed that went with us about the risk of dirt and dust. *Some of us got, what they called nicely'The Kabul Bug' to say nicely you had to spend about 24Hrs very closed to a Blue Rocket (when Available). Personnally, after the return from there we only heard about minor stomach problems, but nothing that stayed on the long run. Could have been due to change of diet, IMP's and the curry spice that we had in every meals after the 'Chip Wagon' was setup. Returning home with normal food 'Mcdonald and Tim Horton' was quite hard on our stomach HAHAHAHAHA.*
> But i did not hear about any major sick peoples from our crew.


Abimopectore...
Do not take this input as meaning there is anything wrong in Afgh. As you will find yourself very quickly being re-buffed, especially if offering it up as 'proof' anything was wrong in-theatre. This condition is known as "yalla yalla" (or Quick! quick!) in the Golan Heights, and was also being called yalla yalla by the new personnel at CM who suffered from it. Change in diet, partaking of the local foods etc can cause this. This is also suffered by many tourists who simply eat the local food etc while on vacation in parts south such as Mexico. Normal stuff. And PS, after my tours, when I got back to Canada, it took me awhile to get used to eating Big Macs etc all over again....normal stuff and occurances. It was quite the treat to watch the newbies come in and suffer from this condition...running for the blue rockets etc....nothing to worry about though as long as you WASH YOUR HANDS etc.


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## KevinB (25 Oct 2005)

I got dysentery in Cyprus -- whoa that sucked...


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## medicineman (25 Oct 2005)

I was on the TAT for Kabul, and yes the "Crud" as we decided to name it was quite a handful.  I seem to recall a full isolation tent more often than not when things were at the worst.  But this wasn't a Canadian only problem.  The vast majority of KMNB suffered from this and a bunch of food borne ailments as well.  A German epedimiologist actually came in and looked at what was happening and concluded it was viral in nature - there were some (apparently) verified cases of salmonella with the Italians.  And, as someone so aptly mentioned, you have to wash your hands - lots.

     BTW, I did get this bug as well - but myself and one of my coworkers escaped with just a run down feeling and mild diarrhea for a day or so; another guy with me was in the isolation tent for almost a week.

MM


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## armyvern (25 Oct 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I got dysentery in Cyprus -- whoa that sucked...


Yeah...   ;D ... and I got yalla yalla in Syria (twice!!) but man, the local food was worth it!! It sucked for like 24hours and I lost a few pounds, which I quickly gained back by partaking of fluids!!


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## KevinB (25 Oct 2005)

Yeah I would agree -- My time in afghan sucked for local food exploration.

 Back to the topic at hand:  I was much more concerned from stepping in a shitpit (literally) - doing a CP task aong with the FST guys I put my leg knee deep into a pit that was a locals toilet.  I think paracowboy had a similar experience.

 Make no mistake about driving thru Kabul with the window down was an interesting experience -- the open garbage dumps and lack of sewage system left a distinct taste in your mouth -


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## Franko (26 Oct 2005)

Let's see. I've been in country since the start of August so I'll chime in.......

The air is something to experience, as Kevin and a few others have alluded to.

However the main problem over here is the dust and exhaust from vehicles in the main city itself. I've come off a few patrols and looked at my shmaeg and it was a nice shad of black. So much for fecal matter. I've also been in a few town and stepped into some "floor pie" as well.

I've also had the "Kabul crud"....4 days worth so far. I've talked to the medics and they atribute it to too much water intake, change of diet, and not washing your hands.

As soon as I reduced my water and upped my washing of hands I have'nt had a round two.....yet.

My brother in-law was bed ridden with IV for 5 days.

Now I'm out in a FOB far away from Kabul and Kandahar......let's see what happens here. The dust settles there like flour, most times ankle to calf deep. I'm already coughing up a storm..........

Methinks this will be harder to deal with.

Regards


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## geo (26 Oct 2005)

hehe.... Think of it as breathing (and ingesting) history.
Alexander the Great's camel - camel dung.
A little bit like going to Shilo MB in the summer - dust, dust everywhere


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## medicineman (27 Oct 2005)

I have to agree with Franko - there seemed to be more particulate matter in the air from smoke and diesel exhaust than the now infamous "poopy dust".  Having said that, the smells of downtown Kabul I'd take any day to the smells of downtown Port au Prince any day of the week.  Kabul was neat and tidy by comaprison.

MM


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## geo (28 Oct 2005)

MM...
you should become a travel agent.... vivid descriptions Mmmmm....


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## medicineman (28 Oct 2005)

;D  I'll name the agency "Sewers of the World".

MM


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## Armymedic (28 Oct 2005)

I arrived in Kabul fighting off the reminents of a cold...which the increased altiude added another week to my recovery. After that, I was perfectly healthy (less a few quick BMs). So if there was a problem with something common to all like the air we breath, why do not the great majority the troops rotation after rotation get sick for the whole tour? Surely we would because we don't breath poopy filled air here in Canada, no?


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## geo (28 Oct 2005)

possibly because it isn't an issue.............


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## Dirt Digger (6 Nov 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I arrived in Kabul fighting off the reminents of a cold...which the increased altiude added another week to my recovery. After that, I was perfectly healthy (less a few quick BMs). So if there was a problem with something common to all like the air we breath, why do not the great majority the troops rotation after rotation get sick for the whole tour? Surely we would because we don't breath poopy filled air here in Canada, no?



Actually, the air we breath is full of assorted crap...pollen, mould spores, diesel exhaust, insect parts, dead skin cells...  However, the body has a pretty well adapted system for removing it all.

As I mentioned in another topic, if you can actually *see* the particles, they're so large that they won't get down to your lungs.


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## medicineman (7 Nov 2005)

Hmmm - I'm sure there are some coal miners dead or dying from silicosis which might argue that one with you.   >

mm


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## geo (7 Nov 2005)

MM.... Silicosis for coal miners
damage done to their lungs over an extended length of time with NO time off for good behavior.

Bit of a difference


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## armybuck041 (7 Nov 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Considering armies have campaigned throughout Afghanistan for centuries, I'm sure it is not some biological deathbed awaiting to kill any foreigner....



It was estimated that a full 67% (416,000) of the 620,000 soldiers who served with the Soviet 40th Army in Afghanstan suffered "serious illness requiring hospitalization" not related to combat operations.... Hospitalization for combat related injuries numbered only 54,000.

Don't get me wrong, I realize our hygiene standards and preventative medicine substancially better than the Soviet Cold War military, but these numbers are pretty staggering none the less. The British Empire also suffured similarily during its two big attempts in the region.


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## medicineman (7 Nov 2005)

Yes - from breathing in particulate matter that is pretty much visible was what I was getting at though.   Most would get filtered out by your ciliae in the nose and lungs (if you haven't burned that away by smoking that is    ), but not all is.

MM


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## geo (8 Nov 2005)

buck041,
There is no doubt that the Soviets experienced some incredible health problems while in the Afghan theatre However; I would venture to say that the Soviets did not spend all that much effort bringing in the necessities of life. Food would have been bought locally and I hate to even contemplate what kind of system they used for their water supply... add to that poor hygene practices of conscripts and a medical system that does not deliver what is required for it's troops and you will get the casualty rates you are alluding to.


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## Good2Golf (8 Nov 2005)

I don't know what I did wrong (right?) but the only thing I had was a bit of short breath for a week until I got used to the altitude...doing the Terry Fox run up around the Queen's Palace litterally "sucked" with ony 3 days on theatre!  MM's right about crap from the buses/taxis...I have to get on the truck's AC recirc button whenever I pull up behind one of the Mille buses or all the Bavarian "Reisenburo" buses in town *hack, hack*  ;D

Cheers,
Duey


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## MadNad (11 Nov 2005)

Hey Medicineman, 
Good to see that after that TAT you are still alive (AHAHAHAHAHA), if people got dust in the lung, its defenetly us.

Good to see that we agree on "That Kabul Bug". Due to limited ressources we had on the TAT, hygene had a lot to do with it. Washing, Washing and washing hands, that was the secret. I'm sure that with all that alcool stuff i put on my hands, it removed the TAN (AHAHAHA).

As for the dust, we had those truck, bulldozer driving around 24/7 and moving shit, sand and rocks. So if dust would have been a problem. You and me would be quite sick by now, if not dead. (I had a Heart Attack a Month Ago, but that about it, AHAHAHA). The TAT pers lived in constant and intense dust because of the construction of the camp.

As for the other camps, there are multiples reason why we build away from them and that the canadian annex at KMNB was seperate, Hygiene standard was defenetivly one of them. Standard were not at canadian levels, so that is maybe why other contingent where so sick and not us. You had to see those place to believe it. Exept for the British Camp, i would not have want to live on any of those camp for a long period of time. 

Also, If i remember good, we could see one guy walking around the camp with some strange equipment on is back a fiew time per days taking air samples. Also some of the devices were build up in the Wire fence. So i think the medic or WOOFETECH staff did all the test they could do and made sure we were as safe as possible.

As for the German report, I saw there camp, and there was a lot more there then dust to make them sick. There own shit, POL depot and garbage would have been one. And we wont talk about there mess hall (Kitchen).

Have fun


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## medicineman (13 Nov 2005)

Yuppers, I'm still alive, don't really have any lung problems, gut problems or any other problems other than the perpetual attitude problem  >.

MM


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## Dog (13 Nov 2005)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I was on the TAT for Kabul, and yes *the "Crud"* as we decided to name it *was quite a handful.*



That's disgusting. Hopefully you washed your hands!  ;D


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## medicineman (13 Nov 2005)

In fact it was quite disgusting.  When people weren`t doing their Linda Blair imitations, they had the blue rockets full to the tops and then some.  Spent alot of time giving out gravol and running IV`s and checking on poor souls suffering under hot, stifling canvas while they were shrivelling up from dehydration.  I felt quite lucky I didn`t get as sick as alot of the others did.

MM


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## Teddy Ruxpin (13 Nov 2005)

> As for the German report, I saw there camp, and there was a lot more there then dust to make them sick. There own crap, POL depot and garbage would have been one. And we wont talk about there mess hall (Kitchen).



You can say that again...I was there - with the Germans - for an entire tour...bloody disgusting.  Good diet program, though...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (14 Nov 2005)

Nice to see they have'nt changed, I spent a week in 1984 in a German field hospital in Norway and besides being dirty, no actually filthy, which being a hospital suprised me, the food was terrible.
Mars bar and a coke for one breakfast......."Hey Hans, can I get some insulin with that?" 

Won't even go into the most anti-drug Lt. in 2RCHA history a couple of beds down trying to explain that he wasn't the one getting morphine......


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## Cpl4Life (14 Nov 2005)

I agree with Franko.  You all should be washing your hands regardless, but especially overseas.  When I was there I experienced nothing more than a minor stomache ache that was most likely due to the change in diet.  I believe my mothers annoying drilling of "WASH YOUR HANDS AFTER USING THE BATHROOM!"  (always said at the worst of times, such as when the girlfriend is downstairs waiting for you) did me some good after all these years.  I was one of the lucky ones.  Nothing like being out on patrol and having to take a projectile-dump in the middle of nowhere.  Thank god for immodium is all I can say.

Medicineman you made my mother think Kabul was a tourist town or something with that description.  Maybe I should buy her a one way ticket.  LOL


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## medicineman (14 Nov 2005)

I just read a story that they just opened a 5 star Hotel in Kabul - I believe somewhere in the "prettier" green area near the embassies - she could stay there.  I've seen pre-war pictures of the city for the 60's and early 70's - it was a beautiful city - "was" being the operative word.

And, in case you haven't heard it already - Wash your hands!!

MM


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## geo (14 Nov 2005)

5 Star hotel?.... must be near the Kabul golf course 
(yes, it's still there - a little worse for wear but still there)


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## Teddy Ruxpin (14 Nov 2005)

No, it must be this one...  I'll admit - I'm floored...

http://www.serenahotels.com/afghanistan/kabul/home.htm

Obviously very new - it wasn't there when I was...


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## geo (14 Nov 2005)

Dang.... I'm baffled.
looks great..."almost" enough to want to give it a try 

(must be vapour ware)


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## Teddy Ruxpin (15 Nov 2005)

Hope it isn't too near the river...


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## TCBF (15 Nov 2005)

"Nice to see they have'nt changed, I spent a week in 1984 in a German field hospital in Norway and besides being dirty, no actually filthy, which being a hospital suprised me, the food was terrible."

- Thats so you don't want to stay.  Remember the scene from "Cross Of Iron" where the General says "I want sixty percent of these men returned to the front within 48 hours!" ?

Tom


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## geo (15 Nov 2005)

Ve haf weys to mek you valk.... (and run)


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## medicineman (15 Nov 2005)

To quote an old friend - "Today ve vill do calisthenics - ven ve say "Targets Up!!", you vill sit up!  Venn ve say "Targets Down!!", you vill ie down! (Remainder censored by author).

MM


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## COBRA-6 (16 Nov 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> You can say that again...I was there - with the Germans - for an entire tour...bloody disgusting.   Good diet program, though...



You'll be glad to know things haven't changed... I now avoid all puddles the way some Bosnia vets avoid grass...

The new hotel is downtown, not far from ISAF HQ...


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## TCBF (16 Nov 2005)

I have a cool picture of an Engineer Sgt toasting a marshmellow over a burning half drum of (our) human waste, JP8, and a naptha kicker.  He and I hauled the drum out of our sandbagged latrine at Mushroom East in Kandahar AF in March 2002 - a lot - and burned it in the downwind corner of the wire.  It might have blown across the airfield to the Canadian camp, but I rarely got to sleep in the Canadian camp, so that isn't an issue for me.

Tom


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## medicineman (16 Nov 2005)

Please tell me he didn't eat that marshmellow - EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!! :-X

MM


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## TCBF (16 Nov 2005)

No.  Pure photo op only.   

A good bunch, those Engineers.

Tom


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