# TDV -- Ex Stalwart Guardian



## Strike (6 Feb 2005)

Just wondering if anyone saw the "Truth, Duty, Valour" episode on Stalwart Guardian today.  It will probably be running a few times this week if you missed it.  Anyway, wondering what your views of the show were.


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## alan_li_13 (6 Feb 2005)

Oh BAHHH!!! I wanted to see that episode so bad! 
I dont ever get to see TDV anymore becuz of my school and cadet schedule!
If anybody saw it, please tell us how it was.


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## Baloo (6 Feb 2005)

I have to say, I was a bit disappointed with the troops because of the casual attitude that they took with the camera in regards to acting as if the Canadian public was their combay buddy. Saying things like "F***ing right, yeah. Yeah, we lit that f***er up good. Kicked some a** today." to the camera when you're being interviewed in the middle of a BFA battle might not be the smartest thing to do. I know we don't always have the best image, and as much as I would dismiss the behaviour (and participate...) in the field, or in battle, I would cauthion others on what they say to the public. Am I overreacting? I don't know. But I have always been taught to watch my mouth when in front on cameras...can it be excused that it was military training? Or that it came from Pte.'s, or that it was on a show like TDV? Will anyone even care?


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## CBH99 (6 Feb 2005)

I'm not sure anybody would really even care, to be perfectly honest with you.  Its a show, with a cameraman in the field with troops as they undertake intense combat training - who cares if the guys swear?  You know how army language us - back when I was in, the F-word was as common a word as anything else.  When the public watches that show, I think the public will be more concerned with the cool toys, and whether or not the soldiers are effective in their tasks - I don't think many people who watch the show will care too much about the language of the troops.  But, I've been wrong before.


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## stukirkpatrick (6 Feb 2005)

It seemed to me though  that they were more talking to the camera operator - who even was egging them on for some comments - I like how when they asked an nco if he kicked ass, and he responded with a professional assessment of the situation (right before the ending counterattack)


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## Strike (6 Feb 2005)

Baloo,

The reason I started this post was to see if anyone felt the way I did about their performance.  Glad to see I wasn't alone.  It really unnerved me wrt how most of those interviewed spoke.  It's one thing for them to swear and such while in the middle of a firefight.  It's another to do it in everyday language.  I was always taught to speak to people like the media in the same way I would talk to my parents -- IOW watch the language.

CBH99,

We all know mil language is a little rough.  I tend to get some good potty mouth going after coming back from the field or when I've spent time away from civilians.  Unfortunately there are some non-military types out there who might get bothered not so much with the language used during the Ex, but the language used while being interviewed.  Sure, the camera guy was egging them on, but the crews for this show are very young.  I would be surprised if any of them were over the age of 25.  Of note, the young American kids that they were interviewing were nothing but polite and respectful of the camera.  Certainly different from how we tend to stereotype them at times (see thread about the General saying it's fun to shoot people).

Other than that, I was still pretty disapointed with the show.  They focused purely on the Infantry side of things with only small mention to the other reserve units that were participating.  This was the biggest Reserve Ex of the year involving all the combat arms trades.  What about all of them?


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## Love793 (6 Feb 2005)

I really think the episode, wasn't all that great.  It really showed the Militia in a bad light.  I fully understand that in the heat of the moment certain things may slip out, however when the most commonly heard word out of one the guys mouths was "F*ck" or some variant of the word, there's a problem. Any one from 33 LIB, know if the supervisor muckled on to these guys?

 Compared to some of the other episodes, I really think it left a lot to be desired. They could have shown a lot more of the ex, from the other Arms and services point of view.  It really looked like there was just a company involved in the ex, and not a complete bde.


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## CBH99 (7 Feb 2005)

I admit, I haven't been able to catch the episode.  I looked up the times, but always seem to miss it.  Anyways, I'll take your word for it - having not seen the episode, and seeing the collective reaction of this group, I'll assume the militia guys could have been more tactful infront of the camera.  Hopefully I'll catch it, I wanna see it now.


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## stukirkpatrick (7 Feb 2005)

Yeah its true that it focussed too much on the infantry with some engineer support, when they could have shown more interaction with the other elements  - I konw that on LFWA's Active Edge, I was exposed to armour, mechanized LAV's and CSS in the form of transport vehicles, and a trip to the BMS for brief illness, while still doing infantry tasks - I also witnessed an artillery barrage and Cougar gunnery, and I'm sure that Stalwart Guardian had all these things, which only received a few seconds of coverage.


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## noreaga808 (7 Feb 2005)

Besides the poor choice of words used during some interviews and lack of variety in coverage of the entire Exercise I have one other issue to add. To some of you it may seem like a minor issue but I found it odd that a few of the troops were wearing hats and shirts that appeared to be American Army type of camouflage pattern. I'm surprised a unit would allow any infanteer onto an exercise without the proper uniform, especially since a camera crew was following them around. 
Overall in my opinion, this episode was one of TDV's weaker entries into the series. It wasn't due to the Army but the poor production of the show.


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## Love793 (7 Feb 2005)

noreaga808 said:
			
		

> Besides the poor choice of words used during some interviews and lack of variety in coverage of the entire Exercise I have one other issue to add. To some of you it may seem like a minor issue but I found it odd that a few of the troops were wearing hats and shirts that appeared to be American Army type of camouflage. I'm surprised a unit would allow any infanteer onto an exercise without the proper uniform, especially since a camera crew was following them around.
> Overall in my opinion, this episode was one of TDV's weaker entries into the series. It wasn't due to the Army but the poor production of the show.



I kind of rolled that into the showing of the Mo in a bad light.


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## noreaga808 (7 Feb 2005)

Love 793, yeah I did see that we brought up the same issues. I just wanted to concur with you and the others and also to add another point in regards to the uniform issue which also doesn't give a good impression of the Militia.


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## MPSHIELD (7 Feb 2005)

noreaga808 said:
			
		

> To some of you it may seem like a minor issue but I found it odd that a few of the troops were wearing hats and shirts that appeared to be American Army type of camouflage pattern. I'm surprised a unit would allow any infanteer onto an exercise without the proper uniform, especially since a camera crew was following them around.



I watched that episode today. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I could be), however, my friend who was on that ex he told me there was an sizable contrabution of American Engineers that "played enemy force" and some "played" on the "friendly force" side as well. The uniforms that appeared to be "American Army type of camouflage pattern" were probably Americans soldiers in the attack mixed in with Canadians in the fire fight. ;D

I also noticed that there was a few CDN soldiers that were still wearing the "in term" US style boonie hat. This US boonie hat was issued 2-4 years ago and was only suppose to be a temporary thing until the CADPAT HAT came around. The CADPAT boonie hat has been available for a while so I do not know why they would be wearing the US style boonie. As per a recent CANFORGEN, members of the CF are no longer permitted to wear them despite being an issued item.

But as most of you have mentioned, I too believe there was a little to much of the F word on that show. That is again, my opinion only.


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## Tpr.Orange (7 Feb 2005)

I was kinda dissappointed that TDV stuck with just one group during the week long excersize... I figured they would have gone out and tried to attach themselves to all aspects of the combat arms, and service support. 


From what i could see some of the colorful language used wasn't needed. Dont get me wrong, ill let out a couple of bad words hear and there, but when on camera its a completly different story. 

Im on the fence regarding the episode, and feel more could have been done. Although everyother episode this year has been great.


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## Redeye (7 Feb 2005)

Love793 said:
			
		

> Any one from 33 LIB, know if the supervisor muckled on to these guys?



There may be fallout for some people over things they said.  Only a couple of people, though, I think.  Those camera guys were right up there egging them on though, and by the end of that raid no one was really concerned too much with decorum for the cameras after tromping through Highview Tower for a few hours.


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## Yeoman (7 Feb 2005)

CFN. Orange said:
			
		

> I was kinda dissappointed that TDV stuck with just one group during the week long excersize... I figured they would have gone out and tried to attach themselves to all aspects of the combat arms, and service support.
> 
> 
> From what i could see some of the colorful language used wasn't needed. Dont get me wrong, ill let out a couple of bad words hear and there, but when on camera its a completly different story.
> ...



exactly. I'm actually suprised they didn't do anything on the jump company. I had alot of friends in the jump company, and it sounded like they had a million times more fun and excitement with what they did over what the rest of the battalions (well brigades, but really battalions) were doing out there.
Greg


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## Armymedic (7 Feb 2005)

I missed the show...in bed sick   

IIRC, they were using US style BDUs as enemy force, as well as ANG troops from downs south...

I was looking forward to the show as the ex had alot of potential. But remeber, not everything can be caught by one or two cameras.


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## x-grunt (7 Feb 2005)

I found the episode quite satisfying. Sometimes I find TDV interesting but a bit dull - not this time.
Like others I was a bit jarred by the F word usage. Accurate, and hard to keep from slipping out, but not great publicity on public television. I also noted the OPFOR wearing US clothing, and thought that an interesting choice for the "enemy".

My favourite line of the show: "I TOLD you to keep your head down"   :warstory:


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## Love793 (7 Feb 2005)

The opfor wearing US BDU is one thing(half of them where American), they where clearly marked in Red as "Orangelandians".  This issue is the guys from 33 LIB wearing American combat hats.  Unprofessional so far as I'm concerned.


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## Northern Touch (7 Feb 2005)

We'll, I never saw a video camera or crew once in my 9 days there.


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## c4th (7 Feb 2005)

x-grunt said:
			
		

> I found the episode quite satisfying. Sometimes I find TDV interesting but a bit dull - not this time.
> Like others I was a bit jarred by the F word usage. Accurate, and hard to keep from slipping out, but not great publicity on public television.



I have yet to see the episode as I agree that TDV is usually dull.   As an infantry NCO I would rather have aggressive soldiers who smoke, swear, and break things.   Nannies need not apply.   The fact that the show and soldiers were apparently accurately portrayed and was not a bore, greatly outweighs a bit of colourful language. Far better than the lies or half-truths fed to potential recruits.   There is an old marketing maxim that 'there is no such thing as bad publicity.'

Keep in mind that Ex SG is an infantry centric ex, and will continue to be so in 2005.   That being said, I think my favorite support unit was the service bn who brought the showers.   Bravo Zulu!

"If the letter F was removed from the alphabet the Canadian Army would cease to be able to communicate."
                                                                                                                              - Hon Maj Durnford DSO
                                                                                                                                 Padre, Seaforth Highlanders of C
                                                                                                                                 Italy circa 1943


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## Bomber (7 Feb 2005)

That episode was lame.  To many guys saying F this and F that.  Grow up.  I enjoyed the commentary of "the soldiers "sense" when they are dead"  I saw a dug in enemy force of 15 guys shooting into a company assault, I only saw one guy being carried out on a ground sheet.  Looks like there was a lack of "sense" going on there.  I never saw a shower till the end of the ex when we were getting boned by the Service Battalion guys, and then it had an MP in it who had just woken up at 11 in the morning.  There were far more interesting things going on in that ex than some little raid pulled off by a single company.  What happened to the regiment of guns, or the airmobile live fire thing.  I know it happened, it blew the crap out of my cam nets for hours.  What about guys dropping form helicopters, or the MP's drinking timmies and wearing their little vests?  That episode should have been devoted to SG04, not India company's adventures in "Orangeland"  There were a couple of new capabilities being used on the ex, like the armoured recce guys and the arty using the mortars, both a bunch more exciting that what I saw on that show.


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## Redeye (7 Feb 2005)

Bomber said:
			
		

> That episode was lame.   To many guys saying F this and F that.   Grow up.   I enjoyed the commentary of "the soldiers "sense" when they are dead"   I saw a dug in enemy force of 15 guys shooting into a company assault, I only saw one guy being carried out on a ground sheet.



You saw what the tape was edited to show you.  I'll tell you more of what happened, since I was there.

On that particular raid more than 20 casualties were declared by the O/Cs and umpires, including the Company Commander.  There was a proper casualty collection point and litter parties were there with improvised stretchers.  There was no "real" casualty simulation, but some troops were told they were injured and were treated as such.  The raid itself wasn't a raid - it was a platoon hasty attack, because our OC didn't like the plan they tried to force on him, and things changed once we hit the actual ORV.  It was a bit of confusion before we launched, but we got the enemy looking the wrong way and smashed them accordingly.

Most of the people on the raid portion were soldiers from my unit, and most of them are good troops.  So they swear, so what?  I did like the "sense" of being dead - that made me laugh.


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## JasonH (7 Feb 2005)

The times for when TDV is on for west coast is a god damn joke.  3pm in the afternoon and replays at 3am?  Wtf!

If I wanna watch it I'd hafto download the bloody show.  Very disappointed that they don't have it for later.


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## Forgotten_Hero (8 Feb 2005)

What are you complaining about the bushcaps for? I have an american style bushcap. Its not like I was given a choice.


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## Bomber (8 Feb 2005)

"So they swear, so what?"

Swearing is part of the job, while you are doing it, fine.  When someone points a camera at you, do you tell them what an F ing great time you just had, nope.  Like at Christmas, "What a F ing wicked mother of a sweater that is grandma, I think the reindeers kick real MF ing ass."  See, but in private or to a buddy you can say "that sweater F ing blows"  I had no problem with people saying "hurry the F up" I have done this myself more times than I can count, but to look into a camera and go on like you just crapped in Rambo's special K, get it together and act more like a grown up.


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## Redeye (8 Feb 2005)

Bomber said:
			
		

> "So they swear, so what?"
> 
> Swearing is part of the job, while you are doing it, fine.   When someone points a camera at you, do you tell them what an F ing great time you just had, nope.   Like at Christmas, "What a F ing wicked mother of a sweater that is grandma, I think the reindeers kick real MF ing ***."   See, but in private or to a buddy you can say "that sweater F ing blows"   I had no problem with people saying "hurry the F up" I have done this myself more times than I can count, but to look into a camera and go on like you just crapped in Rambo's special K, get it together and act more like a grown up.



I'll agree with you on that - there was a few times when people did it right to the camera, and that wasn't entirely professional - there was a lot that was caught by the camera by people who were paying attention to what they were doing and not so much to the fact that the media was there.  We didn't have a clue they were even going to be on the objective, and because we hit the objective basically from behind, we ended up having the depth platoon assault right through the "media holding area".

Ultimately, I think it may just come down to editing - I know they shot a lot of footage, and if what they aired was the best they could find, that's unfortunate.  Some of that stuff (like the Corporal proudly explaining how being gate sentry for the hide means he gets to "slack off") was just awful, and it would have been nice if some military input could have been introduced into the editing to make sure things like that didn't get through.  That individual is very likely going to be receving a great deal of "correction" by my Regiment's chain of command.

"...crapped in Rambo's Special K..."  That's brilliant, I'm going to have to remember that one.


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## Observer23 (8 Feb 2005)

Saying a colourful word in the heat of the moment because your number one on the machinegun just slammed the feed cover on your hand or you are attempting to motivate a group of slow folks in understandable. Trench chat about your alleged exploits with a member of the opposition sex during the last time you were at â Å“Sassy'sâ ? may require profanity to add validity and excitement to your statement.  This I can understand.

Performing for the camera is simply childish. Any monkey showing off just a get airtime or to get noticed can go back to kindergarten.  The only reason the profanity got so much airtime is because it is sensationalism.  The media isn't interested in complex things like the truth.  They are interested in a story.  A soldier describing the actions of his fellow soldiers in an organized action maybe found interesting to some.  Two yo-yos who cannot punctuate a sentence without swearing, that's entertainment for many.  So, are you a soldier doing an important job or a clown looking for a couple of cheap laughs?


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## PViddy (8 Feb 2005)

> The opfor wearing US BDU is one thing(half of them where American), they where clearly marked in Red as "Orangelandians".  This issue is the guys from 33 LIB wearing American combat hats.  Unprofessional so far as I'm concerned.



I thought they were actually an American reserve unit on exchange ? a great episode though.


PV


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## Jarnhamar (8 Feb 2005)

> This issue is the guys from 33 LIB wearing American combat hats.  Unprofessional so far as I'm concerned.



I was issued an american style bush hat in 1999. Much by accident mind you. One of the troops in my section  lost mine (after loosing his) and needed something to go to the mir with. He only had a helmet. Supply tech had one sitting on the counter, was lazy and issued it to me. I was issued one again in 2001.  If thats what your issued, it's what your issued.

I agree the reserves often seem to try and bend the dress code rules but you see the same thing in the regular force. Though, it's to a lesser extent. 

Swearing is swearing, it's going to happen.  My opinion, some of the guys were trying to put on a 'hoorah hard core' show for the camera. Some people love that kida stuff. I think it looked a little fake and kinda stupid.  I'm confident I can do just a good job as the next guy without screaming my face off spitting when i yell or banging the hand guards on my C7 against my helmet, or forehead as i've seen happen.  "Some people need to work themselves up to do a job, others just do it."  (Thats a quote from one of the quietest most relaxed soldiers i've worked with, who topped the pathfinder course and if im not mistaken, sniper course from 3RCR)


I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to media, cameras or making shows.  Just making a guess here, I figure it would be a lot more work for a camera crew to go floating around a brigade constantly bugging the chain of command, getting in the way, trying to cover the whole ex. All the camera crew's i've seen hook up with a section or platoon and follow just them around. That way they know whats going on, whos who and can keep track of peoples names, home towns and shit like that for their stories.  Again, thats an uneducated guess.

On one hand you can have those PFAO (?) guys hold briefing after briefing telling the troops exactly what to say which makes interviwed soldiers seem like zombies. On the other hand you can just talk to the troops and get that false bravado stuff or troops being honest saying sentry means slacking off. I think finding some middle ground would be best.


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## trajectomologist (9 Feb 2005)

I'm gonna throw my hat in too.
I honestly think that there could have been a PAFFO (Public Affairs Officer) around just to brief the troops on what's alright to say in front of the public. *NOT* telling them exactly what to say, just to stick to the basics and try not to swear (yeah it does happen, I'm not saying it doesn't) 
Unfortunately, what it breaks down to is, we as Canadians are a society that doesn't have alot of compasion for the CF. Remember 1995?
People see us for how media portrays us. I am not saying Canadians are a bunch of mindless idiots, but just stop and think about it for a moment... put yourself on the other side... you know nothing about the army... you see real army guys on TV swearing and saying they get to 'slack off' on sentry... what are you going to think? How would you feel about the CF? The reserves?
Yes, the show could have been edited better, or filmed better. There are quite a few options that we can look at. 
It's unfortunate, but it happened. 
TDV on the whole isn't a bad show. I've seen alot of great episodes.

It's awesome to have a sort of AAR like this, so maybe things can get better in the future.


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## stukirkpatrick (9 Feb 2005)

I know my own area stresses media relations a lot - for military exercises and recruiting events alike.   There is good reason for this, as the local media has a way of misinterpreting, or taking things out of context. An example of this was last year: my local newspaper had printed a story on the "soldier for a day" program with a large photo of participants pointing C7s at a demonstration of "rock-throwing protesters", as well as printing quotes from military members that were taken out of context.   We learned at a garrison-wide media relations lecture not long after that the reporter had confused the "rock-throwing scenario" with another one that took place the same day.


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