# Commissioner Wants TTC Cops Armed [ And What About Private Security?]



## Slim (19 Jan 2006)

*Commissioner wants TTC cops armed*

TTC Commissioner Bill Saundercook wants to arm the transit system's special constables with guns. 

Saundercook, a Toronto councillor, said yesterday that the seizure Monday of a sawed-off shotgun and a revolver at the Dupont subway station just reinforces the need to arm the TTC's special constables. 

Saundercook last week spent time with the special constables and learned how they face drug dealers, perverts, and thieves -- especially in washrooms and areas out of the public eye. 

"After spending three hours with these guys, I would not want to do this job," said Saundercook, who plans on raising the gun issue at a TTC meeting. 

The TTC's 76 uniformed and plain-clothed special constables are allowed to carry pepper spray and batons. They have powers similar to police officers while on TTC property. 

TTC Chairman Howard Moscoe rejected the notion of equipping special constables with sidearms. 

"We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp," he said. 

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/01/19/1401404-sun.html


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## 3rd Herd (19 Jan 2006)

Slim
Vancouver Transit police became armed shortly ago. From what I recall most were former members of local police forces. This was done as a result of the rise in violent crime particularly in/around Sky Train Stations. it made the Vancouver and area media.


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## Zombie (19 Jan 2006)

For some reason I thought TTC constables were already armed, perhaps because of the powers they have similar to police. Anyway, I wouldn't be opposed to them being armed. 



> "We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp,"



With 76 constables covering the area the TTC does and drivers and other employees remaining unarmed, I don't see how this would be an issue.


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## Thompson_JM (19 Jan 2006)

Slim said:
			
		

> "We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp," he said.



it never fails to amaze me how no matter how many shootings, deaths and violent crimes occur, the liberal majority is still so ressiliant to arming those who are sworn to protect us to enable them to do their job better..... it seems like most of the people with this attitude would prefer that the only guns on the street are in the hands of criminals rather then those who are paid to protect us from them. 

and to echo zombie's post. even if the TTC hired another 20 or 50 officers which i hear they are looking to do, I hardly see how arming less then 130 employees with handguns would turn the TTC into some sort of Military Force as Mr. Moscoe seems to think....  

IMHO i feel Mr. Moscoe is well out of his lanes here... he may know how to make the busses and streetcars work, but he should probabbly leave security and policeing  to those who know what their doing.....


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## Slim (19 Jan 2006)

> it never fails to amaze me how no matter how many shootings, deaths and violent crimes occur, the liberal majority is still so ressiliant to arming those who are sworn to protect us to enable them to do their job better



That's nothing...Some clown reporter hit the streets of T.O with this story and started to get opinions. The majority were ok with it but every once in a while some looser pipes up that HE/SHER/IT would be VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with having TTC SC's carrying...Something to do with Ontario turning into a police state...

Go figure.


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## Thompson_JM (19 Jan 2006)

Slim said:
			
		

> That's nothing...Some clown reporter hit the streets of T.O with this story and started to get opinions. The majority were ok with it but every once in a while some looser pipes up that HE/SHER/IT would be VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with having TTC SC's carrying...Something to do with Ontario turning into a police state...
> 
> Go figure.



no doubt they started that little rant with, "I was just posting on the Matthew Good BBS "

Slim... I dont know how you live in this city... I get a headache just from working in it.... then again, My former boss once asked me not to wear my armour (internal carrier under a shirt and jacket) because people might get nervous... since heaven forbid the security working downtown should wear protective equip. one of the many reasons im itching to get back into my other job (the one where i wear green)


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## sgt_mandal (19 Jan 2006)

For a while i thought they were armed; kind of thought it would be a given. But one day i noticed they weren't and it got me a little worried. Personally i feel they should be armed. Especially after the kind of things that I've seen in kennedy station.


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## Kal (19 Jan 2006)

Slim said:
			
		

> That's nothing...Some clown reporter hit the streets of T.O with this story and started to get opinions. The majority were ok with it but every once in a while some looser pipes up that HE/SHER/IT would be VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with having TTC SC's carrying...



I would feel very uncomfortable too...




That they can carry and I can't.  ;D


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## Slim (19 Jan 2006)

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> no doubt they started that little rant with, "I was just posting on the Matthew Good BBS "
> 
> Slim... I dont know how you live in this city...



I Don't.

In fact I now live so far out in the country that my closest neighbour is 2 miles away...And for good reason.

To my mind criminals run pretty freely in T.O. They have guns and shoot at whom they please.

Not for me thanks.


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## Slim (19 Jan 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> No one realises that it isn't just the 'normal' cops who face danger etc. and therefore should be armed to better do their jobs. Transit cops in general have a crummy job, having to police generally isolated and out-of-view stations that are home to perverts, dealers, wierdos and teenagers (all equally dangerous).
> 
> I still shudder from some of the things I've seen go on at transit stations in Ottawa.



If anyone here thinks that the TTC police should not be armed, I invite you to go to Yorkdale Subway Station at about midnight and whatch what happens there at night (not that daytime is any better)

Why is it that the criminals are the only ones who should have firearms to protect their or someone elses life?! The TTC Special Const. unit are *TRAINED POLICE OFFICERS * and have the same powers of arrest that real police officers do on TTC property.


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## MP 811 (20 Jan 2006)

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> IMHO i feel Mr. Moscoe is well out of his lanes here... he may know how to make the busses and streetcars work, but he should probabbly leave security and policeing  to those who know what their doing.....



Howard Moscoe has been driving the wrong way on a one way for quite some time


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## Thompson_JM (20 Jan 2006)

Slim said:
			
		

> I Don't.
> 
> In fact I now live so far out in the country that my closest neighbour is 2 miles away...And for good reason.



one of the many reasons Im happy to be in Dundas now (part of the greater city of Hamilton..)




			
				Slim said:
			
		

> To my mind criminals run pretty freely in T.O. They have guns and shoot at whom they please.



one of the reasons Im thankfull that I just got a Class 'B' at my unit now which means I dont have to go there anymore. unless I want to visit.


Also, MP811.

Well put...... 

 I still just cant understand how these people seem to think that giving a few more Cops some pistols turns the city into a police state.... sheesh... i think someones read 1984 a few too many times...


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## Sappo (20 Jan 2006)

Its funny that you mention body armour and public image Thompson... I was having the same discussion with my 'boss' boss at work last fridays meeting.

Basically one of the local PD constables was telling me and another guard about some of the local street thugs who like to carry weapons, including firearms and knives. I brought up the concerns to our boss, who basically said two reasons we wont be getting body armour

#1 What would the people think? We need to present a positive image, walking around in even a stab vest is apparently going to make people think we are there to hurt instead of protect.

#2 If there is danger, you flee.

Now, I don't know about you... but if I see an armed gunman trying to pull ANYTHING while I'm on duty, I am not just going to turn tail and run the other way.... I just couldnt live with myself if I did such a thing. Namely because we are Security and LIFE SAFETY officers, I am there to protect people not run and leave them to the fates. And talking to a few of the people who I secure, they basically say the same thing... In my opinion people see body armour, they know the person means business. NOT only that, but we also have a large safe that all the deposits go into at the end of the night. On a good night we are probably well over $10,000 at least. Christmas time closer to 50 if not more. For myself (1 guard at night) to stand beside this safe, I feel we should be properly protected. I guess I am just venting here, as I know there will be nothing done about it.

Ah... if only I had my way. I really dont see the problem with even a concealable vest... easy fit underneath the uniform, just makes it look as if you put on 50 pounds of muscle, I fail to see the problem  

But back ON topic... The TTC should definatly get at least the (ranking structure?) Senior NCO's trained and carrying firearms. Do they get any training and such on tasers? Or just pepperspray? I can just imagine what the little thugs in Toronto do to the poor TTC workers.


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## Kal (20 Jan 2006)

Sappo said:
			
		

> Its funny that you mention body armour and public image Thompson... I was having the same discussion with my 'boss' boss at work last fridays meeting.
> 
> #2 If there is danger, you flee.



No one can out run Mr. Gaston Glock...


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## Sappo (20 Jan 2006)

Well see thats just it... they may WANT you to run so their company doesnt have a death on its hands... but really if someone points a gun in your general direction you wont be running. It only makes sense to at least offer the protection while doing things such as safe watches.

I just dont see where the security companies get off with saying 'If you are threatened, run'. We are the ones hired to protect people, not run like children at the first sign of trouble.

I remember there was an incident where I work, where one of the guards did something like that... he stood in the shadows and called the local police while an incident occured. 5-6 tenants were watching him do this, wondering why on earth he just stood there doing nothing. Suffice to say there were NOT pleased with what they saw. He was let go shortly after that, steming from unrelated problems (but $5 says that didnt help his employment case). And it turns out, that the incident was nothing... and all it took was a 'hey how's it going' from the police to set everything right.


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## Kal (20 Jan 2006)

Sappo said:
			
		

> Well see thats just it... they may WANT you to run so their company doesn't have a death on its hands... but really if someone points a gun in your general direction you wont be running. It only makes sense to at least offer the protection while doing things such as safe watches.



Agreed.  There are too many liability issues for the company if even in non-formal conversation that they tell the guard/officer to stay and attempt to gain control of the situation.  

I think it is ridiculous that a company wouldn't even allow concealable vests to be worn.  I think there would be more of a liability if a guard/officer were to ask to wear armour and told they couldn't then for that guard/officer to get injured because of it, ie shot or stabbed.

Edit:  Isn't anyone liking my one liners?


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## Old Ranger (20 Jan 2006)

Occupational Health and Safety!!!
If you have a vest and want to wear it under your shirt, than do it.

I had a boss concerned that I was wearing a Tactical vest and was prepared to storm into any situation and that it would be a liability.

Well I corrected him on the Tac Vest part and pulled the wool for the second part.

If they want to be concerned with liability, have them put it in writing. Then take it to MOL and your lawyer.


Arm the TTC (as well as the Coast Guard!)

Ben


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## The_Falcon (21 Jan 2006)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> Arm the TTC (as well as the Coast Guard!)
> 
> Ben



And the CBSA


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## Slim (21 Jan 2006)

*Policing a hidden city*

TTC's unarmed special constables carry out a fine job that's truly mind-boggling

By JOE WARMINGTON

     


It's a fast-moving underground city of 1.4 million. 

That's a lot of people to be policed each day by just nine unarmed uniformed cops and a handful of officers working undercover. But with just 58 sworn TTC special constables on staff that's the way it is most days for the subway and all of the bus and streetcar routes. 

It's mind-boggling. It's just as much a crime as the amount they investigate. At least, thanks to city council's financial commitment, the hiring process has already begun for 21 new officers this year. The TTC board deserves praise too. 

LONG OVERDUE 

It's much needed and long overdue. "If we weren't down here it would be utter chaos," says Mike Twigg, a former Mountie who has been working as a TTC special constable for 12 years. "There is so much going on. We are dealing with weapons all the time." 

His partner yesterday was Dave Weatherbee, a former Canadian Pacific railway cop, who has been with the TTC nine years. These first-rate men have seen it all in 30 years each of policing -- murders, rapes, drugs, suicides, fights, stabbings, shootings, train derailments, bomb threats and fires -- and they've saved some lives too. We should listen to them. 

If they or their colleagues are ever faced with an armed thug, they won't be able to match his or her firepower. You might not want to be a customer riding the TTC on that day -- unless you have your own gun or bullet- proof vest. 

A lot of people around the TTC are afraid to offend a guy like TTC boss Howard Moscoe because he huffs and puffs and spouts off at will. He also wields a lot of power. 

This week was no different. When Councillor Bill Saundercook, a fellow TTC commissioner, called for the special constables to have firearms, Moscoe said, "We don't want to turn the TTC into an armed camp." 

The problem is on some days it already is. But the wrong guys have the guns. The comment, for me, was right up there with Moscoe's famous "the terrorists first would have to find where Toronto is before they attacked it" rant. 

The transit cops say they run into about three illegal guns a month on average. They have also seen riders and operators slain or badly wounded. Many of us have. So has Howard. Even this week a sawed-off shotgun and handgun were intercepted at the Dupont station. On Jan. 12 the TTC cops took down a man with what turned out to be a replica 9-mm handgun, fully loaded with blanks. It looked real and scared the heck out of everybody. 

"And we take knives off people every day," Weatherbee said. 

What else would you expect in a city of 1.4 million? The bad guys are armed. The good guys aren't. It's craziness. "They wouldn't let workers use a jackhammer without eye protection but expect us to go out and deal with hardened criminals," said one officer. 

These men and women deserve better. If you can justify safe injection junkie sites you can entertain properly equipping and staffing our cops. Brinks guards are armed to carry money, and you could argue the cargo on the TTC is just as precious. Some on council get it. 

"After spending three hours with these guys, I would not want to do this job," Saundercook told Sun city hall bureau chief Zen Ruryk. 

It is dangerous. Just yesterday the cops were investigating the sexual assault of a 13-year-old girl at Kennedy station and I heard for the first time ever that one of the 9/11 hijackers had been queried by the transit cops on the subway on May 2, 2001. 

TERRORIST ON BOARD 

Several sources said the terrorist, who was believed to be in the second plane to hit the World Trade Center, was staying in Parkdale. "He had a Florida licence and the officer did a contact card on him that was later asked for by the FBI," one source said. 

If this is accurate, and no one at the TTC was denying it, then this is one terrorist who found our subway system. 

The point is big things happen on the TTC and with a very small staff they do a terrific job of dealing it. There are not enough pats on the back for the crime prevention they do, the mental health patients they help and how they keep order and protect all of those people and all of that expensive equipment. 

"From a policing standpoint they are very professional," said TTC transit patrol Deputy Chief Fergie Reynolds -- a Toronto Police acting inspector on secondment. 

They are good cops, sworn officers who have all the same authority as Toronto Police. They earn the same pay but what they don't have, as ridiculous as it seems, is the same equipment. 

They make arrests of armed people without being armed themselves. Sadly, when one of these special constables gets murdered in the line of duty some fat cat on council will become a proponent of arming them. 

Why wait for it to happen? Equip them now and pay for it with the 12.25% raise Moscoe and his friends tried to sneak through last year for themselves. They'd sure appreciate it and so would their families, who are not crazy about their loved ones being unarmed in Toronto's underground city of 1.4 million. 

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2006/01/21/1404678-sun.html


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## Walrus (21 Jan 2006)

Why is this even an issue with the public? I say we need alot more guns out there with security type personel. not only arm TTC workers but as someone said earlier the Coast Guard and the Canadian Border Guards.  It is rediculous that I can run the Canadian border and all the guards can do it telephone the local police. give me a break!  and alot of punks harrass and assault security personel alot more becuase they know they cannot do much. I say any security personel that is in a high risk area and obtains the proper licencing and training give them a gun.. 

Walrus


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## Wils21 (21 Jan 2006)

Anyone who doubts that the TTC Special Constables need guns should visit Victoria Park station.  Now, don't just get off the train and run.  That would be cheating.  Stand on the platform for a couple of hours.  This should be enough to change anyones mind.  That neighbourhood is a warzone and so is the subway stop.


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## Sappo (21 Jan 2006)

Walrus, thats the common misconception about Security Guards... many people think they 'cannot do anything' and just get harrassed.

If I was harrassed, I would ask the person to stop immediatly and leave the premises (verbal tresspass notice) they have no right to harass me.

If they continued, I would (depending on what they are doing and how badly they are doing it) either ask them once more forcefully. Or arrest them on the spot for tresspassing and have the local police deal with them.

And also yes as I have ranted even us lowly Security Guards need more protection than mere words.


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## Kal (21 Jan 2006)

Sappo said:
			
		

> Walrus, thats the common misconception about Security Guards... many people think they 'cannot do anything' and just get harrassed.



I don't think it is a misconception necessarily.  A lot of security guards are useless.  Mind you, it has a lot to do with the company and what type of guards/officers  they hire and services they provide.  That was the main issue why I got out of my security job.  I couldn't count on a lot of the guys I worked with, let alone trust them with a firearm.  However, there were some switched on guys and I still have friends in the field that have their heads on straight.  

Most certainly any federal or provincial security position should be armed.  Some security companies do offer the service, but their guards/officers have to have their training and skill sets kept up to speed.  I think most companies should have ASP, OC and Taser training, along with mechanical restraints or at the minimum plastic ties and vests rated at least lla and stab resistant.  IMO  That would be a far cry from where I worked that frowned upon black boots but expected you to do 1on1's with the mentally ill, minor personal protection duties and restraining and 'escorting' the violent and belligerent.


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## Slim (22 Jan 2006)

Kal said:
			
		

> IMO  That would be a far cry from where I worked that frowned upon black boots but expected you to do 1on1's with the mentally ill, minor personal protection duties and restraining and 'escorting' the violent and belligerent.



Sounds like a hospital enviorment...


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## Sappo (22 Jan 2006)

Kal, Yea thats what I forgot to mention....  unless the guard is just useless and doesnt WANT to stop it from happening... in which case I would probably harass him as well, except in the form of company communication


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## Rumbo (22 Jan 2006)

I think that Security guards are over glamored watch people that don't have the smarts or intelligence to make it as a cop, but to each his own


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Jan 2006)

MODERATOR WARNING
Rumbo,
If this is all you came here for you will soon be on the ramp with an open door wondering if you have a chute......


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## Rumbo (22 Jan 2006)

sorry, meant no disrespect


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## Lawrence (22 Jan 2006)

Sappo said:
			
		

> #2 If there is danger, you flee.
> 
> Now, I don't know about you... but if I see an armed gunman trying to pull ANYTHING while I'm on duty, I am not just going to turn tail and run the other way.... I just couldnt live with myself if I did such a thing. Namely because we are Security and LIFE SAFETY officers, I am there to protect people not run and leave them to the fates. And talking to a few of the people who I secure, they basically say the same thing... In my opinion people see body armour, they know the person means business.



Having being first on scene to several gun calls and more stabbings then I want to count anymore, I can tell you right now that if I see a gun I am out of the area quick.  The first time I was at a gun call the would be shooter was about 15 feet away from me and my partner.  We got behind a car contacted beats(police for our mall) and just waited.  Thankfully the shooters buddies were telling him not to shoot and he quickly ran back to his waiting car and left.  As a Security Officer you do not have the tools to respond to that kind of a situation.  As much as I would love to help everyone I have a obligation to myself to come home alive every shift.  That being said I work in the worlds largest mall, which is over run with gangs and drugs and with 3 night clubs within 200 yards of each other does not help. To the body armor comments, just because you wear body armor does not make or break you.


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## Kal (23 Jan 2006)

Slim said:
			
		

> Sounds like a hospital enviorment...



Winner!!!  You've won the million dollars and by dollars I mean buttons and by buttons I mean nothing...   



			
				Rumbo said:
			
		

> I think that Security guards are over glamored watch people that don't have the smarts or intelligence to make it as a cop, but to each his own



What about the guards that are too young or waiting to be hired as cops or the guys still studying in school?  



			
				Law811 said:
			
		

> Having being first on scene to several gun calls and more stabbings then I want to count anymore, I can tell you right now that if I see a gun I am out of the area quick.  The first time I was at a gun call the would be shooter was about 15 feet away from me and my partner.  We got behind a car contacted beats(police for our mall) and just waited.  Thankfully the shooters buddies were telling him not to shoot and he quickly ran back to his waiting car and left.  As a Security Officer you do not have the tools to respond to that kind of a situation.  As much as I would love to help everyone I have a obligation to myself to come home alive every shift.  That being said I work in the worlds largest mall, which is over run with gangs and drugs and with 3 night clubs within 200 yards of each other does not help. To the body armor comments, just because you wear body armor does not make or break you.



Un-ass the area immediately, I agree, if the threat is higher than that of your training and that of which is not your responsibility.  Getting behind a car is useless cover, by definition it's not.  The engine block is, but it's not very big.  As for body armour, you're right it doesn't make you any better, but in case of a shooting or stabbing, I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  Using proper gloves while handling needles and drug paraphernalia doesn't make you any better at handling them, it just makes it much safer, same as a vest.


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## Sappo (23 Jan 2006)

first to rumbo:

wow... you must be one of those people that snickers and points at security guards. fact is its a job, people have to do it... i'm sure by the sounds of it you have a very fancy job that everyone envies right? Just because someone is a security guard they are automatically stupid? Wow what a generalization you have there my friend, because we get paid very little money, have alot of responsibility that makes us stupid (I can see that).

Law811:

I agree that it is stupid to hang around a gunfight with no protection or backup, but if I have even the faintest idea that my job might put me NEAR guns I would want protection. Body armour is a tool, just like your mag-lite to see in the dark, body armour prevents nasty holes from forming on your torso.


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## little ruddiger (23 Jan 2006)

Wow, what happened to the TTC? Well, I guess we all just agree about that and are on to bigger and better things. Security work runs the whole gambit from night watchmen and concierge jobs all the way up to stuff that would make the LAPD think you are nuts. One size does not fit all but tell the security companies that it would cut into profits. "Ross McLeod, you magnificent *******, I read your book!!" ;D


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## Elfy (23 Jan 2006)

IMO a well equipped guard is a well trained guard. If they have the bare minimum of equipment, then it simply looks like their job is to stand by the door and smile and nod as people enter and exit.


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## Slim (23 Jan 2006)

Rumbo said:
			
		

> I think that Security guards are over glamored watch people that don't have the smarts or intelligence to make it as a cop, but to each his own



I am in the private security industry. 

I am a specialist in what I do.

I work in Toronto.

My training is probably on par with (if not exeeding in some areas) the average Toronto Police officer.

I make good money.

I am in the same catagory (according to you Rumbo) as all the other $15.00 an hour guards working out there...

Generalizing is not something you should ever do. Keeping an open mind is always the way to go. That way you can prevent being surprised and publically embarrassed like I'm doing to you right now.

Slim


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## little ruddiger (23 Jan 2006)

It seems to me that Toronto takes security a little more seriously than other cities in Canada, because for many reasons the citizens realizes they have to. It reminds me of the way that some Canadians look down their nose at the US as an excuse for not looking critically at domestic issues. All Canadian cities have crime problems but the attitude that "at least we are not Toronto" doesn't wash at distracts citzens from the issues in their own communities especially in Ontario. Canadians have to wake-up and realize that real changes need to be made that effect the front-line security staff in a positive way. I may be preaching to the choir here.

While the OACP, CPA and PAO moan about how the vehicles and uniforms are too close to that of police. The real issues of proper pay rates, back-up, comms., protective gear (ie. vests, hatch gloves and even rain coats) get largely ignored. Even many clients don't appreciate how very dangerous and important decent security is on private properties. So while police management attempts to beat security management into submission (which is hard as long as it doesn't affect profit) front-line police and security staff continue to interact on a daily basis with varying degrees of effectiveness. The fact is neither group can operate effectively without the other and this adversarial attitude from the top has to change.


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## zipperhead_cop (24 Jan 2006)

I have worked both sides of this coin and can feel for the plight of the security guard.  I used to wear a vest when I was a Scarborough Town Center guard, had a big ole mag light and cool leather gloves that I would find any excuse to strap on.  I was there for the original race riots, kicked rapper "Snow" out for being a dink (accused me of picking on him because he was white), used to wade into the middle of fights to grab kids with not much back up.  I made hundreds of arrests and was living the adventure.  And I was being an unsafe idiot.  
Having the vest gave me a false sense of security.  Many fire arm rounds will still potentially kill you from the blunt trauma even if they don't penetrate (which many do) and most knives and pointy things (ice picks) will cut through them like butter.  
Don't forget what you are hired to do.  TTC police are sworn constables and only by policy are they precluded from carrying.  As a security guard you are paid to observe and report.  Thats it.  Maybe your company doesn't want to give you more equipment because they are concerned that you will go cowboy and get into a jack pot.  And if you get hurt, and you are doing something that falls outside of your job definition, watch how fast Workers Comp drops your ass and you have nothing to show for it but a lingering injury that may make you unfit for a real police job.  
It is hard to stand by and be a spectator while criminals are breaking the law right in front of you but unless you have been specifically directed to take action ie) doorman at a bar, it just isn't your job to step in.  



			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> While the OACP, CPA and PAO moan about how the vehicles and uniforms are too close to that of police. The real issues of proper pay rates, back-up, comms., protective gear (ie. vests, hatch gloves and even rain coats) get largely ignored. Even many clients don't appreciate how very dangerous and important decent security is on private properties. So while police management attempts to beat security management into submission (which is hard as long as it doesn't affect profit) front-line police and security staff continue to interact on a daily basis with varying degrees of effectiveness. *The fact is neither group can operate effectively without the other * and this adversarial attitude from the top has to change.



Yeah, the wanna be uniforms and fake cruisers will seem like a great idea until one of you guys gets waxed by some crack head that is fleeing from an armed robbery and you come wandering up and not realize what just happened.  No doubt it is tough to work your security mojo on the honeys wearing polyester navy blazer and grey pants, but it will keep you a lot safer.  
I'm also pretty sure that facilitating closer working relationships with private security firms is not a priority for most services.  It's only you guys that see it as adversarial.  We kind of don't care what you do, we just don't want to see anyone get hurt.  In the mean time, I'm confident that I can do my job effectively without the full cooperation of the security industry behind me.


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## 3rd Herd (24 Jan 2006)

Elfy said:
			
		

> IMO a well equipped guard is a well trained guard. If they have the bare minimum of equipment, then it simply looks like their job is to stand by the door and smile and nod as people enter and exit.



Your opinion is just the same as the ten people that found that found themselves unemployed in 2004 when I took over a contract for Canada's second largest National Park. It being bad enough that the National Park staff who are being paid tax dollars to this work have been pouting in a corner for the last six years and collecting their salaries because they cannot carry side arms.( Yes in Specific roles they long should have been, example poacher patrols and back country operations).

Along with the duty belts, went the polyester, given the climate and terrain it was a no go from the start. Soft shirts and Hele Hansen cargo pants became the required wear along with mature articulated staff. A bit of planning and liaison work with the two local RCMP detachments( I also worked for one, which helped). The end result by the time I finished was an overall drop of DIPS to zero, Partying became almost non existent and the place returned to what it should be a place of enjoyment for all.

Now my reasoning was based on a simple observation of human characteristics. If you look like your are prepared for violent confrontation chances are some fool is going to take you up on it. Remember the famous quote" the pen is mightier than the sword", well so are careful thought out replies. Training does not mean baton practice, Taser firing etc, it means using your brains and being creative, innovative and adaptive. Those who do can find themselves making a pretty good living these days aside from opening the doors.

Next back to the original thread which has seemed to have been lost. I still cannot under stand the fuss over arming the TTC police. Again the furor created is just another sign that TO has still not joined the 21st century, afterall if the transit police out here in lotus land can now carry guns what is the big deal. Try travelling to most major US cities and ride the subways they have been armed for years, as well as Housing Authorities and several other public employment sectors. In closing again "much to do about nothing".


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## Slim (24 Jan 2006)

> Next back to the original thread which has seemed to have been lost. I still cannot under stand the fuss over arming the TTC police. Again the furor created is just another sign that TO has still not joined the 21st century, afterall if the transit police out here in lotus land can now carry guns what is the big deal. Try travelling to most major US cities and ride the subways they have been armed for years, as well as Housing Authorities and several other public employment sectors. In closing again "much to do about nothing".



I think it has more to do withpublic perseption than anything else. Torontonians are very Liberal (to the everlasting shame of the rest of us) in their outlook and will say/do anything that is anti-establishment. The other problem is the activist/Liberal bunch who hold a lingering power base here in the city. Getting rid of that lot should clear out the trash and make way for sensible security precautions and options for those that have to enforce them.


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## little ruddiger (24 Jan 2006)

Too bad the post from SLIM that had followed my last is now gone because I think SLIM is my long lost sibling and I couldn't have agreed more, but no matter.

Zipperhead I will tell you a little story; It seems one day that an old retiree working as a security guard alone in a medium size mall received a call for a medical emergency. He showed up to the tenant space ensured the patient was receiving proper first-aid and was off to meet the ambulance. He directed paramedics into the store and showed them the way back out all saving valuable time, as he had done dozens of times before. About a week later our hero shows-up for work feeling quite ill, but being the only security he can't call in sick because that means there will be no one available to do his work. A little later that morning the old guard drops to the floor clutching his chest. Without security to direct emergency services in a timely fashion, to the scene inside the mall, he died. True Story.

Don't tell me that you don't need the assistance of security when it comes to the huge private properties that have sprung up in every urban centre in this country. Security directs police, fire and ambulance to the scene and you should know that. Also when you bring in a Form 1 S.17 MHA who takes over custody, that right the loley security guards. When you pick-up an overdose or drunk and drop them off at an emergency room, because you can't take them to cells anymore for liability issues, who takes over security. 9 times out of 10 who gives police the authority to issue tresspass to property tickets, yet again security. Need I go on?

Just because you acting irresponsibly in security does not automatically mean that all security are ramboes like you apparently were. The wannabe uniforms and cars (as you so respectfully put it) are not a good idea exactly for the reason you mentioned but the amount of time police lobby groups spend on the issue is stupid. Do you really think that people looking for help are going to go running up to a security guard by mistake and when they get there go "damn" and keep running and looking for a cop, not likely. Maybe a better way of doing things is to sit down and say police look like this and security looks like this. Instead of stomping around saying "no bad security, I'm taking away your cargo pants until you think about what you have done!" 

By way of example; police car=white, security car=black, police shirt=navy blue, security shirt=grey, police pants/hat stripe=red/grey, security hat/pants stripe=blue. 

There problem solved no one will mistake police and security again now the OACP can get back to demanding raises from their boards, while private industry eats their lunch. Oh and by the way I am not a security guard nor is any member of my family but I care about those who are.


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## J.J (24 Jan 2006)

The problem I see with Security Guards is that they have the belief that they are professional LEO's. I have been "tinned" by more than one security guard who is surprised that they are not offered professional courtesy as a LEO. I do not know if the similar problem exists outside of the Windsor area, but the local Security companies are modelling their uniforms and cars to close to the Police. Windsor Police has a black  unmarked Magnum, that is used for traffic enforcement, a local security company purchases a black Magnum with discreet door emblem's, the SUV's are the same model, the light bars are similar etc. I am not advocating Security Guards be dressed in pink tu tu's, but a standard uniform much differant than the Police is necessary.
Zipperhead Cop is being a bit harsh, but he has some good points. A Security Guard is someone who usually has minimal training with the responsibility of being observant and reporting any crimes or suspicious activities to the Police, not to go rushing in and do a "high risk takedown armed with a 4 D cell mag light". little ruddiger has a good point in that Security Guards should not be working alone or if that is unavoidable have an personal alarm (similar to the "I have fallen and can't get up type) that has a direct monitored link. Sometimes the Security Guard industry is their own worst enemy when they attempt to overstep their bounds and act as a legitimate Law Enforcement agency, if they realized what their arcs are, I would imagine their would be better cooperation and 2 way communication between them and the Police.

Back to the original scheduled thread....there is no doubt TTC Cops need to be armed. It amazes me how these politicians make these judgements when they themselves will not venture out without their armed escorts.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Jan 2006)

Actually, since this thread has swerved all over, I think I will just rename it and we can carry on with both topics as they seem to intertwine.....


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## Slim (24 Jan 2006)

> Back to the original scheduled thread....there is no doubt TTC Cops need to be armed. It amazes me how these politicians make these judgements when they themselves will not venture out without their armed escorts.



Very perceptive...perhaps a bit of insider trading? :


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## zipperhead_cop (24 Jan 2006)

Sappo said:
			
		

> Now, I don't know about you... but if I see an armed gunman trying to pull ANYTHING while I'm on duty, I am not just going to turn tail and run the other way.... I just couldnt live with myself if I did such a thing. Namely because we are Security and LIFE SAFETY officers, I am there to protect people not run and leave them to the fates. And talking to a few of the people who I secure, they basically say the same thing... In my opinion people see body armour, they know the person means business. NOT only that, but we also have a large safe that all the deposits go into at the end of the night. On a good night we are probably well over $10,000 at least. Christmas time closer to 50 if not more. For myself (1 guard at night) to stand beside this safe, I feel we should be properly protected. I guess I am just venting here, as I know there will be nothing done about it.


Okay, this is why we have to take a protective stance towards those who would not use discretion themselves.  These are the guards that will end up a headline.  And in a box.



			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> Zipperhead I will tell you a little story; It seems one day that an old retiree working as a security guard alone in a medium size mall received a call for a medical emergency. He showed up to the tenant space ensured the patient was receiving proper first-aid and was off to meet the ambulance. He directed paramedics into the store and showed them the way back out all saving valuable time, as he had done dozens of times before. About a week later our hero shows-up for work feeling quite ill, but being the only security he can't call in sick because that means there will be no one available to do his work. A little later that morning the old guard drops to the floor clutching his chest. Without security to direct emergency services in a timely fashion, to the scene inside the mall, he died. True Story.



And the moral of the story?  If you are such a "dedicated professional" that you ignore your own personal health in order to show up for a security job, don't be surprised when you calf out.  If he was such an EMS whizz and was a great medical facilitator, he should have recognized the early signs of a heart attack.  If buddy went to the hospital like it sounds like he should have, he may still be around.  What would happen if he didn't show up?  Some supervisor or management type has to pull a midnight shift.  I'm sure his family would have rather he called in sick instead of burying him.  No one thanks a police officer who shows up sick.  They just tell you you're a retard and "you better not make me sick".
  


			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> Don't tell me that you don't need the assistance of security when it comes to the huge private properties that have sprung up in every urban centre in this country. Security directs police, fire and ambulance to the scene and you should know that. Also when you bring in a Form 1 S.17 MHA who takes over custody, that right the loley security guards. When you pick-up an overdose or drunk and drop them off at an emergency room, because you can't take them to cells anymore for liability issues, who takes over security. 9 times out of 10 who gives police the authority to issue tresspass to property tickets, yet again security. Need I go on?




Most officers know their areas and don't need to be told where to go to get to a call.  And for medical stuff the paramedics will beat us there every time.  I believe the Scarborough Town Center, Yorkdale Town Center, Eaton's Center and Square One all have police sub stations, do they not?  As for the MHA's, I don't know what other cities do, but until the nut is admitted to the hospital, they are the responsibility of the apprehending officer.  Once they are admitted, then the retention of that party is the responsibility of the hospital.  If your job description included being physical with patients, then I guess that is what you signed on for, right?  We don't pawn off our drunks, so again I don't know what other areas do.  As for trespassing tickets, we do that FOR you because you are the aggrieved unit.  Do you really think we could care less about wheeling out a $55.00 ticket?  Careers don't exactly turn on that sort of stuff.
But, yes, go on.  I love self aggrandizing.  



			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> Just because you acting irresponsibly in security does not automatically mean that all security are ramboes like you apparently were. The wannabe uniforms and cars (as you so respectfully put it) are not a good idea exactly for the reason you mentioned but the amount of time police lobby groups spend on the issue is stupid. Do you really think that people looking for help are going to go running up to a security guard by mistake and when they get there go "damn" and keep running and looking for a cop, not likely. Maybe a better way of doing things is to sit down and say police look like this and security looks like this. Instead of stomping around saying "no bad security, I'm taking away your cargo pants until you think about what you have done!"



When Elite Security first got their Crown Vic security cruisers, they were white with red and blue lettering.  There were actual guards that were doing vehicle stops after observing traffic violations and approaching cars and demanding documentation.  Over 90% of police are killed during "routine" traffic stops, so how is Skippy going to make out?  They denied it to death until they stopped an off duty police officer on her way home from an afternoon shift.  That clown narrowly skated on a impersonate charge, and was lucky to only be fired.
And no one wants your pants.  How much demand for size 26 and 48 waist pants do you think there is?



			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> There problem solved no one will mistake police and security again now the OACP can get back to demanding raises from their boards, while private industry eats their lunch. Oh and by the way I am not a security guard nor is any member of my family but I care about those who are.



Nice.  So as a final bitter note you throw out that you think we are over paid.  Make sure you share your views the next time you are pulled over for a traffic offence.


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## little ruddiger (25 Jan 2006)

Zipperhead my gentle, learned little buddy, I know you are still upset with me for body-slamming you on that other thread but we can still be friends. A good way to start the flow of warm and fuzzies between us is for you to stop putting words in people mouths. You can follow that up by actually posting an intelligent opinion of your own instead of misinterpreting what others say and attacking them.

Shh shh I know your tantrums are hard sometimes they worry me too. Maybe you should sit down, wipe the froth from the corners of your mouth, get a cold glass of milk and do a little reading. A great place for you to start is here http://chrisbraiden.com/. I will, as an olive branch, be happy to help out with any big words that give you trouble 'cause you know ruddiger loves ya baby.

Another thing that would really help us out is to stop saying “you” to me when referring to security guards because I told you I am not one, but if I were I would be proud in spite of people like you. I have already mentioned some of what I do on this site. Maybe if you work on your attention to detail you could make detective some day. “Whose my big detective, whose my big detective” That’s right it’s you. You’re adorable :-*.


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## zipperhead_cop (25 Jan 2006)

Okay, if you want to go with condescending/homo-erotic instead of reasonable argument, thats fine.  I grew up in the GTA and can handle it.  
You want to post-spoon, then go ahead.  I will choose to withdraw any further direct response, since I don't think it would be fair for us to get a thread locked that isn't ours, and I don't need to be introduced to the warning system.
If anybody wants my opinion on career moves, feel free to PM me.  I actually have a job.


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## big bad john (25 Jan 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Okay, if you want to go with condescending/homo-erotic instead of reasonable argument, thats fine.  I grew up in the GTA and can handle it.
> You want to post-spoon, then go ahead.  I will choose to withdraw any further direct response, since I don't think it would be fair for us to get a thread locked that isn't ours, and I don't need to be introduced to the warning system.
> If anybody wants my opinion on career moves, feel free to PM me.  I actually have a job.



point and match!


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## little ruddiger (25 Jan 2006)

There you go with your attention to detail defecate and assumption about other people posts again, zippy. I have not indicated anywhere on this site that I am either male or female. I also was treating you like a child not a lover because I think you have been throwing childish tantrums in your posts and hijacking any real discussion here. Also I have three occupations one of them is in law enforcement, one of them is military and one of them is academic. You probably didn't look at the site I had put in my last post but it is a former cop who truly thinks progressively about policing issues instead of spouting off the party line like you seem to do. 

What hope does the TTC have in convincing the public they should be issue side-arms when our regular police officers go on the internet with statement like "Some people are like slinkies:  They don't really serve any purpose, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs". Very tactful. It is obvious from what I have read from you that, as you say, you love self aggrandizing you also seem to be a  big fan of self delusion and a robo-cop 1st class. Being called conceded is an honour coming from the grand marshall of the concede parade that are your posts here. As for your little buddy big bad john are you going to say something usefull? This is a thread about special constables and security not cheerleading or tennis.

Anyway the solution to me would seem that Special Constable be armed and there must be more of them. Fundamental changes should be made in the law that would compel private and public properties to take proper security measures. We have fire codes and building codes to keep people safe why not security codes as well. It never seizes to amaze me how fundamental this seems. A property is required by law to be built a certain way, with certain materials and the owner must install and maintain fire alarm and suppression equipment or face fines or being shut down. On the other hand people can be beaten, raped and victimize on a property and there is no effective law that compells the owner to act. The only reason for security is insurance it is rarely a case where public safety is the real purpose for security measures.

Security Guards should have proper equipment to ensure there safety and training that is commensurate to their level of responsibility. The new Ontario act and the one in BC attempts to do this but stronger enforcement and real teeth are needed to make change. As mentioned before Quebec has mandated a decent living wage for security staff and obviously if this were done in the other provinces it would go a long way to attracting the right people and retaining them. It is a simple approach tougher regulations and more resources equal greater public safety.


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## big bad john (25 Jan 2006)

little ruddiger said:
			
		

> There you go with your attention to detail defecate and assumption about other people posts again, zippy. I have not indicated anywhere on this site that I am either male or female. I also was treating you like a child not a lover because I think you have been throwing childish tantrums in your posts and hijacking any real discussion here. Also I have three occupations one of them is in law enforcement, one of them is military and one of them is academic. You probably didn't look at the site I had put in my last post but it is a former cop who truly thinks progressively about policing issues instead of spouting off the party line like you seem to do.
> 
> What hope does the TTC have in convincing the public they should be issue side-arms when our regular police officers go on the internet with statement like "Some people are like slinkies:  They don't really serve any purpose, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs". Very tactful. It is obvious from what I have read from you that, as you say, you love self aggrandizing you also seem to be a  big fan of self delusion and a robo-cop 1st class. Being called conceded is an honour coming from the grand marshall of the concede parade that are your posts here. As for your little buddy big bad john are you going to say something usefull? This is a thread about special constables and security not cheerleading or tennis.
> 
> ...



It might be helpful if you filled out your profile more.  Just a helpful suggestion.


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## Sappo (25 Jan 2006)

Wow..... just wow... where to begin.


I can see this has gotten a tad wee bit... teensy even... out of hand.

To zipperhead:  On the comment about protective stances? Seriously speaking... when I take a job I take it seriously, If I am hired to protect someone/something I am going to protect it... otherwise I wouldnt have applied for that job in the first place. If you are implying that I turn tail and sprint down the hall, for whatever reason... then I guess we just have different outlooks on obligation and commitment.

To WR: I can agree with you to some respect that yes security officers do try and paint themselves in the same light as police officers, and puff out their chests etc. That is a generalization unfortunatly. As I have worked with many who simply do a great job. I really dont see the problem with what we wear for uniform... I have had 15 year old stoned kids say "Shit its a cop", and then their 5 year old brother points out "No its a security guard". If a 5 year old can tell the difference, than I should hope you can too 

Ruddiger: That story was a good one, and Zipperhead anyone who has worked security can atest to the fact that you simply DONT take days off... at my current job I was told that if I try to take a day off without DAYS notice, my phone will ring every 5 minutes until I show up to work. No joking. It is fine and dandy to say he could have taken the day off work, but lord knows he probably had bills to pay, food to buy, and if he didnt show up faced being dismissed. The fact of the matter, and the reason ruddiger posted the story is to show that security guards actually do a service to society, even if you are past the security guard stage now and just look down on us from above 


Now uhh, what was this thread about again?

Oh ya... lets arm em!


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## Thompson_JM (25 Jan 2006)

Yes.... lets try not to let this spiral too much here.....

bottom line TTC Transit Police are just that, Police. so lets give em the tools to do there damned job! 

Id love to hear how Howards Moscoe can prove that Arming less then 100 staff turns the TTC into an armed camp... 

sounds like hes been hanging out at York U.


Cheers
     Josh


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## S1 (25 Jan 2006)

I have been following this thread with much interest and feel the need to reply.

I've been working as a security professional for many years now (probably too many). I got into the field, like many others, with the intention of moving on to a policing career. After working in the security field, I have changed my mind. Part of the reason is a severe disillusionment with the police "institution" and their practices. 

I've had the pleasure of interacting with many members of various police services, some were pleasant, others not so much. For example, I read earlier about police having to stay with S. 17 patients until accepted by the hospital. This is true, however apparenty members of the Ottawa, Toronto, O.P.P., R.C.M.P., York, and Durham regions were not made aware of this, because in my years I have had several issues with all of these services leaving Sec. 17 patients unattended, often in the waiting room, often without notifying medical personnel 

Also, I can come up with numerous other occassions were the police have not only not assisted security, but have actually done their best to discredit or work against them. Is this the way to make our communities safer.

The other reason I decided against becoming a police officer is I actually care about the safety and well being of my community, and unfortunately most police services I have dealt with, despite their lip service, don't seem to feel the same.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jan 2006)

Why did you feel the need to make a new "identity" just to tell us that?

You have 5 minutes to PM me before the ban hammer comes out....


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## little ruddiger (25 Jan 2006)

I am not S1 he is my roomate and he used my laptop to view the posts I had been ranting about and felt he had to respond himself. I can understand why there is confusion but I am not the author of that post.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jan 2006)

So "S1" is your roommate who just happens to share the same thoughts about the police and private security..............must have been good luck that two people with the same thinking ended up together.


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## The_Falcon (26 Jan 2006)

I smell a troll


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## zipperhead_cop (26 Jan 2006)

Okay. For the record
1.  I am fully supportive of private security and their pursuit of whatever mandate they are hired for.
2.  Police services get nervous around security "zealots" because they don't have our training, legal support or job descriptions that we do and when they try to, that's when things get screwed up.  
3.  I have seen all of the non-police posters talk about policing as a job, work, intitution, maybe a career, or something distasteful that they chose not to pursue, etc.  They speak in defeatist language like "I chose to do something better" and "I tried and they didn't want me".  The only person who took you out of the competition was you.
When you have a badge, you are part of a family.  The same as a Regimental family.  You go to the wall for your brothers and sisters in every situation, because it is usually us against the world.  We only have each other.  When you apply for the job, and you get accepted, that is one police officer saying to all other police officers "I would work with this person.  I would go through a door with them in a gun call.  I would trust them to get me home to my family.  I see this person as so filled with potential that they are deserving of the Public Trust.  I believe they can be a Police Officer".   That is a pretty awesome thing and it takes a lot of demonstration of worthiness to get to that point.

To say that 


			
				S1 said:
			
		

> unfortunately most police services I have dealt with, despite their lip service, don't seem to feel the same.


police are disinterested in the well being of their communities is at best wrong, and at worst painfully ignorant of what we actually do.  
If private security is your thing, please enjoy your career and do the best you can at it.  
The TTC are not security guards.  They are sworn officers and uphold the public trust in Toronto's transit system.  If they are sworn to put themselves in harms way, they should have the tools they need.


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## Old Ranger (26 Jan 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> And for medical stuff the paramedics will beat us there every time.



There has always been speculation for the above happening?

Maybe the Medics will take this one for us...?

Cheers

Armeveryuniformouthere Ben


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## zipperhead_cop (27 Jan 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I smell a troll



I think the troll has been cut off.  Darn.   8)


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## Thompson_JM (27 Jan 2006)

Meh, I dont miss him....

besides... you can only say "youre wrong, and while im on the subject youre also a complete F@#$ing MORON too!" so many times before you just hit the person for not listening... or since thats technically wrong, you either remove yourself, or him from the situation... in this case our Mods saw fit to remove him.... because he's a tool.... 

and bitter....

and zipperhead, 


> ...When you have a badge, you are part of a family.  The same as a Regimental family.  You go to the wall for your brothers and sisters in every situation, because it is usually us against the world.  We only have each other.  When you apply for the job, and you get accepted, that is one police officer saying to all other police officers "I would work with this person.  I would go through a door with them in a gun call.  I would trust them to get me home to my family.  I see this person as so filled with potential that they are deserving of the Public Trust.  I believe they can be a Police Officer".   That is a pretty awesome thing and it takes a lot of demonstration of worthiness to get to that point...



thats what im hopeing the boys in recruiting will see in me.

but thats about the best way to put what it really feels like to want to be a cop. when youre applying and working towards it, all youre thinking is, "I hope they think im good enough to join their ranks. I hope they can see the potential."


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## zipperhead_cop (27 Jan 2006)

Then you will be in someday.  Stay the course.


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## Slim (28 Jan 2006)

Hi All

As the origionator of this thread I feel somewhat responsible to the other posters over what happened here.

ZHC
I apologize to you publically for the outbursts that the now-banned members of the forum made regarding police officers. Being Both an Aux PC and a private security specialist I am sometimes straddling the fence on a variety of issues regarding law enforcement and the age-old who-gets-to-do-what-under-the-law arguement.

 I am very much pro police (specially since I am one, well sort of anyway... :-\) and when working in a policing enviorment do feel the 'family bond' that goes along with it. In the region that I police I feel very lucky as the current chief is very pro aux and we are able to do quite a bit in terms of actual policing, not just parades and other public events. (member the first time you drove the car with the lights and siren going!? ) Or had a hand in the arrest of a dangerous public offender (firebug in my case). 

The police family is like no other...And despite some outward appearances please let me assure everyone who reads this that the MAJORITY OR POLICE CARE DEEPLY ABOUT THE PUBLIC'S WELFARE!! There will always be those who do not...But they can be found in every walk of life and pursue every career, not just law enforcement. 

Again ZHC - please accepty my apologies on behalf of those who don't know better and are too arrogant to learn. If you want to know more about what I do in the real world PM me and I'd be glad to share it with you...And it may surprise you just a bit.

Cheers

To the rest of the posters in the thread

Gents, we have some good ideas flowing back and forth here...With the exception of those who are now banned and will not beinterupting us again. Please don't let this or any thread die due to the crap that was spewed by a very few who are no longer with us!

To the mods (bruce I guess) thanks very much for cleaning up a mess that you shouldn't have had to touch. I was remiss in not monitoring this thread more closely given the subject nature and the strong feelings involved in it. I hope to be able to do the same for you!

Cheers

Slim


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Jan 2006)

No blood, no foul.  I enjoy lightning rods. ;D  Now that Lil Rud is gone, and you guys punted Silverbach, who am I going to tangle with?  Glorified Ape is too smart :blotto:


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## Thompson_JM (29 Jan 2006)

and the rest of us are all pretty much Pro-Cop...


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Jan 2006)

Can we raid post on hippy sites and then challenge them to answer here?  Or is that bad form?  
This one could use an infusion of good old true blue spirit:
http://www.nk.ca/~doctor/blog/serendipity/archives/33-Council-of-Canadians-has-joined-forces-with-other-social-justice-groups-and-unions.html

I just know they are dying to get the soldiers perspective ;D


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## Slim (29 Jan 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Can we raid post on hippy sites and then challenge them to answer here?  Or is that bad form?



NO

We wnt though that earlier this year and it cost no amount of grief! (I know you're kidding...you ARE kidding right?)

Anyway gent, lets crank this thread back up and have at 'er!


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Jan 2006)

Sorry, wasn't here earlier in the year.  Disregard my last.  Love to see the old posts that caused the grief, though.


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## Thompson_JM (29 Jan 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Can we raid post on hippy sites and then challenge them to answer here?  Or is that bad form?
> This one could use an infusion of good old true blue spirit:
> http://www.nk.ca/~doctor/blog/serendipity/archives/33-Council-of-Canadians-has-joined-forces-with-other-social-justice-groups-and-unions.html
> 
> I just know they are dying to get the soldiers perspective ;D



after reading those post i think maybe they might just be satisfied if we sent em some tinfoil hats or something... sheesh, talk about paranoid.... i love how some liberals make the conservatives out to be this big bad scary monster thats going to eat your children and throw heated up nickles at orphans or something... god.. its just a political party... not to mention a minority... what they can and cannot do is going to be fairly limited when you really look at it...

I dont think theyre extreme enough.... i think its much more fun to take a true granola cruncher like those mokeys at the protest from York U. the one with the video. you can get them all rilled up and foaming at the mouth and everything.... thats way more fun!  ;D


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Jan 2006)

Would there be a link to such a thing?  Just for the sake of idle curiosity...


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