# Congratulations on Your Military Service… Now Here Are 9 Reasons Why I Won’t Hire You



## daftandbarmy (9 Mar 2021)

From a US source. Brutally honest, and on target!


So, you’ve decided to hang up the uniform after years of distinguished service to our great nation. You’ve attended a few transition classes and have your interview suit and shiny new resume as you make the leap into the civilian world.

You feel confident, because you’ve seen your colleagues leave the uniform on Friday and come to work the following Monday in a suit and tie making twice as much salary. You storm the job boards and job fairs. Never mind that although you’ve drafted a plan of action and milestones (POA&M) for every significant evolution of your military career, some of you have invested the least amount of time and effort into your own transition POA&M.

Those of us in the hiring and recruiting business know firsthand that not all veterans are created equal, and, sometimes, it’s a great business decision to hire a military professional into our companies. Often, though, many don’t. Why? Because you’re just not the right fit. A more impressive candidate captured our attention, or maybe, through no fault of your own, we found someone internally or received a referral from one of our own employees.

*The irony is that many veterans and servicemembers have the skills and experience to make the cut, or even get the second interview, but blow it.* As a military candidate recruiter, I see consistent themes in why military professionals don’t get the job. Many may blame the new Transition GPS, their branch of service’s career center or even the employers themselves, but here are the top real reasons why you’ll never get hired:

*1. You Can’t (or Won’t) Accept That You’re Starting Over*

Let’s suppose that immediately after graduating from college or high school, I went to work for one of the well-known defense contractors. During the course of my 20+ year career at that company, I was very successful and promoted to the position of Program Manager, frequently working with the military. However, I’m now at that point in my career where there isn’t any opportunity for further advancement, or I’m simply weary of the industry.

I’m now in my late 30s or early 40s and decide it’s time to leave the company to pursue a different career. I’ve worked with the military my entire adult life, so I decide I want to join its ranks. Because of my previous experience with managing multimillion dollar budgets and hundreds of personnel, I feel I’m the equivalent of a Commanding Officer or Senior Enlisted Leader. When I talk to a recruiter about my level of entry, what would they tell me?

The cold dose of reality is that despite all of my experience, I’d have no idea what the organizational culture is like in the military. I’d be set up for failure if someone allowed me to don the collar devices and step into a command position. On day one, something as basic as sending an email to a flag officer could go very sour very quickly. This is because even though I may have transferable skill sets, I lack the knowledge of industry norms and protocol experience to succeed.

A senior military professional transitioning into the private sector faces the same dynamic. The transition is a bit easier within the Department of Defense and Federal arenas, but *you’re starting anew. It’s imperative that you understand this. As a result, you should seek ways to learn the organizational structures of potential employers* many months before you’ll be entering the job market.

Just as I would have been far better informed had I spoken to a military recruiter before I left my civilian job, so should you be similarly informed before entering your last year of service. Use recruiters, headhunters, employment counselors, hiring managers, etc. to gain intelligence and information so you can be pragmatic in your expectations and planning. Also, getting a mentor who has successfully navigated into the private or government sector and is also a veteran will provide invaluable insight from a perspective you’ll be able to relate to.









						Congratulations on Your Military Service… Now Here Are 9 Reasons Why I
					

Just because you have the skills and experience for a position, that doesn’t mean you’ll get it. Avoid these mistakes to make sure you don’t sabotage your chances.




					careerattraction.com


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## stoker dave (10 Mar 2021)

That is indeed a good article.  

I like the point about 'starting over'.  That is 100% true.  I have hired former soldiers to work entry-level jobs at construction sites.  They were selected over other entry-level candidates because I had good confidence they would reliably show up, on time, wearing the right gear and bringing the right kit.  They invariable fit in well and advanced quickly.   They started as entry level but weren't 'entry level' for long.  

One thing I thought missing from the article is qualifications.  Any more working (any where, at any level) requires specific qualifications, certificates, tickets, etc.   These could include health and safety, equipment operation, first aid, professional or trade qualification, etc.   The importance of those qualifications should not be understated in applying for work.  Someone with the right qualifications will get a closer look than someone that doesn't.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2021)

stoker dave said:


> That is indeed a good article.
> 
> I like the point about 'starting over'.  That is 100% true.  I have hired former soldiers to work entry-level jobs at construction sites.  They were selected over other entry-level candidates because I had good confidence they would reliably show up, on time, wearing the right gear and bringing the right kit.  They invariable fit in well and advanced quickly.   They started as entry level but weren't 'entry level' for long.
> 
> One thing I thought missing from the article is qualifications.  Any more working (any where, at any level) requires specific qualifications, certificates, tickets, etc.   These could include health and safety, equipment operation, first aid, professional or trade qualification, etc.   The importance of those qualifications should not be understated in applying for work.  Someone with the right qualifications will get a closer look than someone that doesn't.



Yes, the point about qualifications is well made. 031 Death Tech quals don't tend to translate well to civvy street.

I've talked to a few people leaving the CAF, who asked for advice, and told them to stay in until they are able to take advantage of as much training as they can get through the system, even if you aren't exactly sure what you want to do in civvy street. On the outside, its not so easy to come across courses or education that the boss is willing, or able, to pay for.

Many civilians also pursue their education and training goals outside the scope of their daily work and employment and pay for it out of their own pockets, going into debt with student loans etc in some cases. They take charge of their own destiny.

In my experience, precious few CAF members are willing to do that and expect the military to look after them a little bit too much


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## Spencer100 (10 Mar 2021)

I'm hiring PM me


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## TCM621 (10 Mar 2021)

I will be honest, this scares the shit out of me a little. I can see my retirement on the horizon and I have zero direct skills to market. I have spent the majority of my career working with things that go BANG or BOOM and neither translate well to civvy side. To top it off, I joined young prior to joining the mob, I only ever had part time jobs working in kitchens or retail. I also got those job by walking around town with a stack of resumes as we did back in the dark ages of the 20th century. I am worried that I won't be able to market myself to employers in an effective way because I don't know how to a) translate my worth in a way employers will understand and b) get that information in a way that gives me a chance to compete for a job.


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## ModlrMike (10 Mar 2021)

One thing you can do is take every DND Learn and CSPS course that applies to diversity and inclusion, harassment prevention, and creating a respectful workplace. These are the hottest items on the street right now.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2021)

TCM621 said:


> I will be honest, this scares the shit out of me a little. I can see my retirement on the horizon and I have zero direct skills to market. I have spent the majority of my career working with things that go BANG or BOOM and neither translate well to civvy side. To top it off, I joined young prior to joining the mob, I only ever had part time jobs working in kitchens or retail. I also got those job by walking around town with a stack of resumes as we did back in the dark ages of the 20th century. I am worried that I won't be able to market myself to employers in an effective way because I don't know how to a) translate my worth in a way employers will understand and b) get that information in a way that gives me a chance to compete for a job.



You'd be surprised... seriously. Send me a PM if you want to connect about it.


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## stoker dave (10 Mar 2021)

TCM621 said:


> I have spent the majority of my career working with things that go BANG or BOOM and neither translate well to civvy side.


I think you are selling yourself a bit short!   

I believe there are any number of 'second career assistance' programs.  Get signed up!

I would add that you likely have a good sense of working with others (does that lead to HR or recruiting jobs?), you know about parts, inventory and accounting (warehouse or inventory management jobs?), moving around heavy equipment (heavy equipment rental or construction support jobs?) organizing people and equipment (project coordinator jobs?), deploying and setting up remote locations (supporting oil and gas or mineral exploration?).    That might give you some ideas on where to start.  I wish you good success!


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## OldTanker (10 Mar 2021)

I retired from the Army in 2002, after 28 years of regular service. I began actively planning my transition to civilian work five years before I retired. I selected the job I was looking for (emergency manager), was able to get myself into a similar Army position (domestic operations) and actively sought out every civilian course and training opportunity that came my way. Of course this was easy as the civilian courses supported my military work, were freely provided and not overly time consuming. So, when I interviewed for a position with a municipality as their emergency manager, not only did I have my "generic" military qualifications (which were respected but not a guarantee of anything) but piles of relevant civilian experience and training which put me ahead of several other ex-military persons who had applied for the job, and frankly had more impressive military CVs than I. I understand my situation was unique, but the point I'm making is that I started preparing five years before retiring and took the effort to make myself competitive against civilian competitors. If you've got the time, take advantage of it to situate yourself to be competitive in THEIR market. Good luck.


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Mar 2021)

Even from a Public Service perspective, you are not well armed when it comes to negotiating wages and contracts, thankfully I have a built in legal advisor to review my contracts. Also if doing something related to your previous job, don't wait to long as the people that you used to work with and know you personally will move on and then your just a another faceless body with stuff that makes you look like a square peg in a round hole, even if that is not really the case.


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## Gunnar (10 Mar 2021)

What about demolitions?  Blasting rock for highways or mines?  Noisy explosions for geological seismographs in the oil industry?  Brick kiln cleaning with 10 ga shotguns?

Dunno how applicable, and there are doubtless skills to learn, but the bang or boom seem covered there...


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## Spencer100 (11 Mar 2021)

We're hiring. PM me.  Windsor, Ingersoll (soon), Woodstock, Brantford (soon), Cambridge, Alliston, St Catharines. Although some at level entry.  Summer students soon.  And always looking for AZ no over the road just intercity two point drive.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Mar 2021)

Gunnar said:


> What about demolitions?  Blasting rock for highways or mines?  Noisy explosions for geological seismographs in the oil industry?  Brick kiln cleaning with 10 ga shotguns?
> 
> Dunno how applicable, and there are doubtless skills to learn, but the bang or boom seem covered there...



Every developer I know needs qualified blasters. There's so much construction going on right now they're really tapped out.


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Mar 2021)

That was my 2nd choice if my seagoing career did not pan out. My military demolitions course was light years ahead of what is required for a blasting ticket here. I have met some awesome super smart blasters and some that are downright scary to be around and know only enough to be very dangerous. Urban blasting requires the former. 
Got up to a small dam site where they were doing some restoration work, they forced me to take a 45 minute "safety briefing". The first thing I see as I step out of the trailer from the briefing is their crews mishandling explosives, I gave them heck for being complacent. Modern explosives are very safe, till they are not. Complacency is a really bad idea when dealing with them.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Mar 2021)

Gunnar said:


> What about demolitions?  Blasting rock for highways or mines?  Noisy explosions for geological seismographs in the oil industry?  Brick kiln cleaning with 10 ga shotguns?
> 
> Dunno how applicable, and there are doubtless skills to learn, but the bang or boom seem covered there...


Redacted


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## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2021)

Not too sure I would want to work for a company that expects a thank you note for giving me an interview.

For some reason that reminds me of the last time I seen a PSO in Petawawa. Buddy made me about turn and read the school degrees he had on his wall. Literally.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Mar 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not too sure I would want to work for a company that expects a thank you note for giving me an interview.
> 
> For some reason that reminds me of the last time I say a PSO in Petawawa. *Buddy made me about turn and read the school degrees he had on his wall. Literally.*


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## blacktriangle (11 Mar 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not too sure I would want to work for a company that expects a thank you note for giving me an interview.
> 
> For some reason that reminds me of the last time I say a PSO in Petawawa. Buddy made me about turn and read the school degrees he had on his wall. Literally.


Hopefully you casually turned around and walked right out???


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## Spencer100 (11 Mar 2021)

It's a crazy world right now is all I say.  Most people in management around here can't get people in the door.  I'm happy when we get four resumes for salary job.  At one location we are happy to get one or two for good union jobs....yes you may have to start on midnights.  But I did it. 

There seems to be a big disconnect between the jobs and the workers or the kinds of jobs they want.  It's super frustrating. 

I will give you an example. One company I'm associated with has 350 full and part jobs. It has just one job everyone of the "kids" wants the social media and engagement job.  But the schools and colleges are pumping those out as the job of the future. It just one job of 350.

I think many companies would hire ex military.  Are you on time? Can you follow instructions?  Basic military stuff well it was when was a militia private.  That stuff never going out of style. 

Back to this thread. Canadians and Canadian companies don't understand the military. They grew up with the schools...well you know.  I think the CAF should reach out to more businesses and leaders.  Invite them to your messes etc.  Let them drive a LAV.  Shoot a rifle.  Can you imagine a  local bank manager riding in tank. He will remember that forever. But after that take him to you training halls show the things you do that translates to his everyday world.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2021)

reveng said:


> Hopefully you casually turned around and walked right out???


Naw, I was curious about MP and MPO and he had information I wanted.

The tray of Canex and PX bought coins displayed on his desk pointing at the guest chair and not somewhere more discreet really summed him up.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Mar 2021)

Spencer100 said:


> It's a crazy world right now is all I say.  Most people in management around here can't get people in the door.  I'm happy when we get four resumes for salary job.  At one location we are happy to get one or two for good union jobs....yes you may have to start on midnights.  But I did it.
> 
> There seems to be a big disconnect between the jobs and the workers or the kinds of jobs they want.  It's super frustrating.
> 
> ...



That used to happen in the Officers' Messes. 

Then the Officers we promoted in the militia, for some reason, had alot of military experience/ contacts, but very weak contacts in the civilian world, and it just died along with our social and other connections with the community. For example, I can't think of the last time we invited the Mayor in to meet the unit. Bizarre.

The CFLC keeps up a 'tight smiled' brave front, but it's on a no win ticket IMHO.


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## Furniture (11 Mar 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not too sure I would want to work for a company that expects a thank you note for giving me an interview.
> 
> For some reason that reminds me of the last time I seen a PSO in Petawawa. Buddy made me about turn and read the school degrees he had on his wall. Literally.


I'm fairly certain that the article is directed at people applying for management/"white" collar jobs, not the people applying for skilled "blue" collar ones.  Though based on my impressions talking to friends in the office drone world, even there the over the top politeness and "boot licking" as we would call it, is the standard.  Which is why I expect my next job/career will be in the skilled trades and not in an office. 

It's interesting that PSOs have so much power over our careers, but so many seem to lack interpersonal, and leadership skills based on what I have heard from others.


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## Eaglelord17 (12 Mar 2021)

The blue collar employers I have had love having former military personnel. Their logic is simple, they tell us to go do something, and we do it without arguing. That and we tend to be much more willing to work overtime than our compatriots. A lot of the people who never were in the military fight back and argue over the stupidest little things. For example I saw a guy the other day blow a gasket over being asked to strap down a pallet. Mind you part of that is management not holding some of them accountable/not doing their job.


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## mariomike (12 Mar 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The blue collar employers I have had love having former military personnel. Their logic is simple, they tell us to go do something, and we do it without arguing.


When I hired on with the City, we came under the watchful eyes of the "46'ers". Post-war era, hard-nosed old vets who were big on, and instilled, the military values, which the emergency services followed in many ways back then.

Uniforms and grooming showed everything. Sloppy meant two things: lazy and disrespectful.

So, the transition from being a full-time student and part-time MSE Op was pretty simple for me. Tones go off. Doors go up. Wheels rolling within 60 seconds.  Like an assembly line. Car, windshield. Car, windshield.



> That and we tend to be much more willing to work overtime than our compatriots.



Willing or not, OT was mandated.

The tolerance for discipline and traditional top-down rule has changed over my time on the job. It seems more geared toward human resource policies that are designed to coddle employees and nurture their every need and want.


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## TCM621 (12 Mar 2021)

Spencer100 said:


> It's a crazy world right now is all I say.  Most people in management around here can't get people in the door.  I'm happy when we get four resumes for salary job.  At one location we are happy to get one or two for good union jobs....yes you may have to start on midnights.  But I did it.
> 
> There seems to be a big disconnect between the jobs and the workers or the kinds of jobs they want.  It's super frustrating.
> 
> ...


There used to be a program like that where employers would go out for "military training" where they would shoot guns, go for RHIB rides, ride a tank, etc. I think we should do more of it but maybe they have cut it because it is hard to impress someone who has a cutting edge cell phone in their pocket with 80s and 90s era equipment. "So first we insert the tape drive......"


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## mariomike (12 Mar 2021)

TCM621 said:


> it is hard to impress someone who has a cutting edge cell phone in their pocket with 80s and 90s era equipment.


Nothing new about that. The M135s we used to drive were built before I was.


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## ModlrMike (12 Mar 2021)

TCM621 said:


> There used to be a program like that where employers would go out for "military training" where they would shoot guns, go for RHIB rides, ride a tank, etc. I think we should do more of it but maybe they have cut it because it is hard to impress someone who has a cutting edge cell phone in their pocket with 80s and 90s era equipment. "So first we insert the tape drive......"


There still is, it's called Executrek. It comes under the purview of CFLC (Canadian Forces Liaison Council). Mostly taken advantage of by ResF units. We usually do one every year or two, but as you can imagine, COVID has put the brakes on that.


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## daftandbarmy (12 Mar 2021)

ModlrMike said:


> There still is, it's called Executrek. It comes under the purview of CFLC (Canadian Forces Liaison Council). Mostly taken advantage of by ResF units. We usually do one every year or two, but as you can imagine, COVID has put the brakes on that.



They're a waste of time, sadly, and something of a virtue signalling, 'look how well integrated we are with the civilian community', dog and pony effort.

If you really want to integrate the CAF properly with the civilian working world there are far more meaningful, and lower profile, methods of doing that.


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Mar 2021)

Not sure how that program worked, but perhaps having reservists nominate their bosses to come to live fire exercises to see how their junior manager handles a artillery fire mission for example or a section attack would help build the relationship and value to the employer, not to mention rewarding them for supporting the reserves. How many CO's send out "Thank you for supporting our reservists" certificates every year? A award for employers that go beyond the basic support would be nice as well.


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## CBH99 (12 Mar 2021)

TCM621 said:


> There used to be a program like that where employers would go out for "military training" where they would shoot guns, go for RHIB rides, ride a tank, etc. I think we should do more of it but maybe they have cut it because it is hard to impress someone who has a cutting edge cell phone in their pocket with 80s and 90s era equipment. "So first we insert the tape drive......"


What was that program called?

I can see the posters in my mind, but I can't for the life of me remember the bloody name of the program.  It was a pretty good way to connect local employers to their reservist employees.

A tour of the armoury, maybe play on the SAT system, observe a fire mission or room clearing, see some 'military looking kit' (most employers won't know whether that specific radio is current or not), etc etc.  I remember some employers would bring their kids, who were happy to just be surrounded by it all for the day.

I'm surprised reserve units don't still do that?


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## Ping Monkey (12 Mar 2021)

CBH99 said:


> What was that program called?
> 
> I can see the posters in my mind, but I can't for the life of me remember the bloody name of the program.  It was a pretty good way to connect local employers to their reservist employees.
> 
> ...


Exercise Collaborative Spirit.

A few of my company's managers participated in 2019, really enjoying the experience.  2020 was nixed for obvious reasons.  😷

https://www.canada.ca/en/department...iritadayinthelifeofourcanadianarmysoldie.html


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## Loachman (16 Mar 2021)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/m4641y


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## daftandbarmy (16 Mar 2021)

Ping Monkey said:


> Exercise Collaborative Spirit.
> 
> A few of my company's managers participated in 2019, really enjoying the experience.  2020 was nixed for obvious reasons.  😷
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/department...iritadayinthelifeofourcanadianarmysoldie.html





Loachman said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/m4641y



I had a look at some of the 'coaching' they give retiring military members on how to find a job.

Ironically, this was provided by people who've never, ever had a job outside of the CAF.


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## Loachman (17 Mar 2021)

One of the keys is a decent resume/CV, and that is a challenge. The biggest part of that challenge is to translate military skills into phrases of interest to civilian recruiters.

A bunch of career transition seminars, or whatever they are called now, helped, but the greatest aid was a local job agency, ACFOMI https://www.acfomi.org/en/. Being the closest of the bunch to CFB Kingston probably helped their ability, but they were pretty good about the translation part. I had never thought of my years as a Military Helicopter Ride Booking Agent as a wealth of customer-support expertise before, for instance.

Start a Linked In profile as well.


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## daftandbarmy (17 Mar 2021)

Loachman said:


> *One of the keys is a decent resume/CV, and that is a challenge*. The biggest part of that challenge is to translate military skills into phrases of interest to civilian recruiters.



No offense, but that's the biggest fallacy, of course, foisted upon job seekers by resume writing cliques, and people who don't know much about finding work in a tough civilian job market.

The most important thing is networks... knowing people who know you and what you can do: for them or others that they know. That's how most people find jobs. The resume is an afterthought, or should be, for someone with alot of prior work/ life experience.

The greatest deficit to any CAF member entering a labour market where they have no one who knows them is just that: they're invisible.

How to fix that? People need help getting introduced around. And no CAF member, apart from some reservists probably, or family members who have civilian jobs, can help much with that.


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Mar 2021)

Start volunteering outside of the military and take an interest in things on the civy side before leaving, that`s a way to start a network, along with social media stuff liked Linkedin.


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## Good2Golf (17 Mar 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The most important thing is networks... knowing people who know you and what you can do: for them or others that they know. That's how most people find jobs. The resume is an afterthought, or should be, for someone with alot of prior work/ life experience.


This.  Relationships form the market and trust is the commodity that flows in that market.  Setting up non-DND relationships when possible before you release is a good thing to do if you can.


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## Furniture (17 Mar 2021)

Thanks @daftandbarmy for posting these insights for those of us who joined the CAF straight out of school. As I near my retirement in the next couple of years it has started to become apparent how unprepared for the "outside" I am.


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## blacktriangle (17 Mar 2021)

The difference in workplace/organizational culture is also something to be aware of. For instance, if you're going to work for a defence contractor, you might be around a fair number of ex-military and find it familiar. Probably similar within DND and perhaps some employers in the S&I community. The same can't be said if you apply to work somewhere that revolves around "startup culture".


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## mariomike (17 Mar 2021)

A 70% pension is considered the _benchmark_ for _working_ _Canadians. That's what OMERS pays, and from what my sister told me, the CAF does also. 

Does anyone who stayed in for the whole ride ( 70% ) feel the need for post-retirement employment?_


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## daftandbarmy (17 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> Thanks @daftandbarmy for posting these insights for those of us who joined the CAF straight out of school. As I near my retirement in the next couple of years it has started to become apparent how unprepared for the "outside" I am.



It's a good heads up for anyone, not just CAF members, of course. It's too bad we just push people through SCAN seminars and say 'bye bye' once we're done with them though.

The CAF is potentially a great start for people who can go on to do even greater things after their military service. A better 'interface service' between uniformed and civilian life wouldn't be hard, or too expensive, to set up.


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## Weinie (17 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> A 70% pension is considered the _benchmark_ for _working_ _Canadians. That's what OMERS pays, and from what my sister told me, the CAF does also.
> 
> Does anyone who stayed in for the whole ride ( 70% ) feel the need for post-retirement employment?_


Some of us who started having kids late (60 in two months) and have a 14,12,9 and 3 year old feel the need for any employment. Kids cost a lot.


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## mariomike (17 Mar 2021)

Weinie said:


> Some of us who started having kids late (60 in two months) and have a 14,12,9 and 3 year old feel the need for any employment. Kids cost a lot.


Of course everyone's financial situation is different. 70% is considered the benchmark for most working Canadians from what I have read. Which is why the pensions max out at 70%.

But, in OMERS ( and maybe the CAF too? ), if 70% is not enough, they just keeping working at full pay ( while increasing their pension at the accrual rate if they want to take it all the way up to 100%. )

I've known a few guys who for whatever reasons stayed on the job after they had maxed out. But, they did not change employers.


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## daftandbarmy (17 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> A 70% pension is considered the _benchmark_ for _working_ _Canadians. That's what OMERS pays, and from what my sister told me, the CAF does also.
> 
> Does anyone who stayed in for the whole ride ( 70% ) feel the need for post-retirement employment?_



My unit is full of retired CAF Officers  who look like they need the Class A income. I suppose it’s based on individual situations of course.


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## Weinie (17 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> Of course everyone's financial situation is different. 70% is considered the benchmark for most working Canadians from what I have read. Which is why the pensions max out at 70%.
> 
> But, in OMERS ( *and maybe the CAF too? *), if 70% is not enough, they just keeping working at full pay ( while increasing their pension at the accrual rate if they want to take it all the way up to 100%. )
> 
> I've known a few guys who for whatever reasons stayed on the job after they had maxed out. But, they did not change employers.


We (CAF) max at 70%. Although I and my family could survive on my pension, like I said above, my kids are growing progressively more expensive. So, next job beckons. I would like to give them more options than what I had growing up.


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## Good2Golf (17 Mar 2021)

Weinie said:


> We (CAF) max at 70%. Although I and my family could survive on my pension, like I said above, my kids are growing progressively more expensive. So, next job beckons. I would like to give them more options than what I had growing up.


Weinie, I have a friend whose daughter got into horse jumping.  Don’t be him. 😉


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## Weinie (17 Mar 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Weinie,* I have a friend whose daughter got into horse jumping.  Don’t be him*. 😉


I too, have a friend like that, and it almost bankrupted him. 

We try to be open to proposals, but judicious in approvals.


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## SupersonicMax (17 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> Of course everyone's financial situation is different. 70% is considered the benchmark for most working Canadians from what I have read. Which is why the pensions max out at 70%.



Maybe for boomers but for every other generations, just having a pension is considered a win.  Besides government jobs, I would bet there aren't too many employers offering lifelong defined benefit pensions after retirement.


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## lenaitch (17 Mar 2021)

Weinie said:


> We (CAF) max at 70%. Although I and my family could survive on my pension, like I said above, my kids are growing progressively more expensive. So, next job beckons. I would like to give them more options than what I had growing up.


Our lifestyle always seems to rise (or fall) to our income level).  I retired at 62% of my police salary and had two part-time jobs; mostly to stay active.  I didn't want to make lawn whirly-gigs in my basement.  When we bought our small farm, spare time left my vocabulary, but I suppose it paid off when we sold it ten years later.


Good2Golf said:


> Weinie, I have a friend whose daughter got into horse jumping.  Don’t be him. 😉


It is an expensive hobby - at that's all it is for the vast majority.  We got our daughter her first horse at age 7.  She progressed into the hunter-jumper circuits where you win ribbons and the odd trophy.  Most horses are relatively cheap to buy, but expensive to keep.  On the other hand, I had (have) a motorcycle; expensive to buy, relatively cheap to keep, so I guess I couldn't complain.  It was good for her.  Living in the country meant she didn't grow up with nearby friends and we moved four times between her birth and highschool.  I don't begrudge it but you gotta have your eyes open.  You either pay board or have facilities at home (we had both), then tack, vet bills, lessons, a trailer for shows, insurance, yada, yada.


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## Kat Stevens (18 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> A 70% pension is considered the _benchmark_ for _working_ _Canadians. That's what OMERS pays, and from what my sister told me, the CAF does also.
> 
> Does anyone who stayed in for the whole ride ( 70% ) feel the need for post-retirement employment?_


There’s not a single chance in hell I could have put my feet up after I retired.

sorry, misread, I didn’t ride it to the end of the line, doctors had other ideas.


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> sorry, misread, I didn’t ride it to the end of the line, doctors had other ideas.


Our Permanently Partially Disabled ( PPD ) members were placed in a "suitable" job with the City. If you can blink your eyes, they'll find you something to do.



> Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.



This was the important part:



> If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.


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## Good2Golf (18 Mar 2021)

lenaitch said:


> It is an expensive hobby - at that's all it is for the vast majority.  We got our daughter her first horse at age 7.  She progressed into the hunter-jumper circuits where you win ribbons and the odd trophy.  Most horses are relatively cheap to buy, but expensive to keep.  On the other hand, I had (have) a motorcycle; expensive to buy, relatively cheap to keep, so I guess I couldn't complain.  It was good for her.  Living in the country meant she didn't grow up with nearby friends and we moved four times between her birth and highschool.  I don't begrudge it but you gotta have your eyes open.  You either pay board or have facilities at home (we had both), then tack, vet bills, lessons, a trailer for shows, insurance, yada, yada.


He half-joked about filling “Ferrari”’s feed bag with $100 bills...joked about the $100 bills, but the horse was called Ferrari...named
After the car he would never have because of the horse. 😆


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## GR66 (18 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> Of course everyone's financial situation is different. 70% is considered the benchmark for most working Canadians from what I have read. Which is why the pensions max out at 70%.
> 
> But, in OMERS ( and maybe the CAF too? ), if 70% is not enough, they just keeping working at full pay ( while increasing their pension at the accrual rate if they want to take it all the way up to 100%. )
> 
> I've known a few guys who for whatever reasons stayed on the job after they had maxed out. But, they did not change employers.


Pension?  What's a pension?

Would love to have a government job with a pension plan...not many other employers these days that offer that to employees.


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2021)

GR66 said:


> Pension?  What's a pension?
> 
> Would love to have a government job with a pension plan...not many other employers these days that offer that to employees.


Right. I imagine those who do would consider very carefully before voluntarily releasing for another job - unless the new employer had a pension transfer agreement.


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## blacktriangle (18 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> I imagine those who do would consider very carefully before voluntarily releasing for another job - unless the new employer had a pension transfer agreement.


In the last year or so, I can think of three people who were at 25+ years of service, that died and never got to collect their pension. It definitely opened my eyes, and reminded me to be thankful for what I have in the here and now.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Mar 2021)

reveng said:


> In the last year or so, I can think of three people who were at 25+ years of service, that died and never got to collect their pension. It definitely opened my eyes, and reminded me to be thankful for what I have in the here and now.


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## FormerHorseGuard (18 Mar 2021)

I got out, and it was hard to pick up and start again. I was proud of my past being in the Canadian Forces. But to be honest I only have the job I have today because of my military background. Twice my  former training and thought process worked to save my employers a lot of money because I could handle a crisis without panic and without management support. A tornado took out most of the cell communications, I was one of the few who lived outside the area who was able to respond and do damage control. Second time was major building flood,  as I drove in to the site, ( using my bluetooth handsfree ) , I was able to arrange the various contractors to start clean up operations before I was even on site. One question I was asked about during my job interview was, Overtime and working it. I smiled and said you pay  overtime?  The employer knows I will come to work, be there and do whatever it takes to get the job done. Worry  about the other stuff later. That is one of the great reasons to hire ex military, we will work and make things happen.


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## Eaglelord17 (18 Mar 2021)

Pensions in the private sector are basically all defined contributions if they are there at all now. 

It mainly comes down to how you manage your money. For example if I work to 65 where I am at I shall receive a pension of about 1/3 my annual income. The Company pays about 2.85$ a hour worked into the pension and thats it for us. So the result is I need to save more money for retirement than a public sector employee would.

I have family members who have retired with full CF pensions and have squandered it all, living pay cheque to pay cheque (the only fortunate thing being those cheques are consistent). But receiving 70% of your income made well in the CAF is a fantastic thing and certainly a lot more than most receive for retirement.


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## lenaitch (18 Mar 2021)

Being non-military, the one thing that I have repeatedly read on this site that strikes me as bizarre is the often protracted lag between the last CAF paycheque and the first pension cheque and benefits kick-in.  Provided reasonable notice is given, the financial transition should be seamless (sure - I've known members who have got up and walked out the door but they are outliers).  It strikes me as simply a bureaucratic failure.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Mar 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I got out, and it was hard to pick up and start again. I was proud of my past being in the Canadian Forces. But to be honest I only have the job I have today because of my military background. Twice my  former training and thought process worked to save my employers a lot of money because I could handle a crisis without panic and without management support. A tornado took out most of the cell communications, I was one of the few who lived outside the area who was able to respond and do damage control. Second time was major building flood,  as I drove in to the site, ( using my bluetooth handsfree ) , I was able to arrange the various contractors to start clean up operations before I was even on site. One question I was asked about during my job interview was, Overtime and working it. I smiled and said you pay  overtime?  The employer knows I will come to work, be there and do whatever it takes to get the job done. Worry  about the other stuff later. That is one of the great reasons to hire ex military, we will work and make things happen.



How did you get hired by a civilian employer? Sounds like yours is a great example of a success story some could learn from!


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> But receiving 70% of your income made well in the CAF is a fantastic thing


Well said.


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## FormerHorseGuard (18 Mar 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> How did you get hired by a civilian employer? Sounds like yours is a great example of a success story some could learn from!


It took me years to find a job that  where my  knowledge and skill sets could be used.  I applied for some really stupid jobs to get my toe in the door.  Now working in property management for company in Ottawa, and I think I am the only former soldier in the company.


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Being non-military, the one thing that I have repeatedly read on this site that strikes me as bizarre is the often protracted lag between the last CAF paycheque and the first pension cheque and benefits kick-in.


Of all the threads I have read on here, the most amazing is always "Pension wait times", and others like it.

I had never heard of anyone waiting a single day for their first pension cheque / deposit, or post-retirement benefits to begin. The transition was, and should be, seamless.


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> That is one of the great reasons to hire ex military, we will work and make things happen.


It used to be considered an advantage in the emergency service. Not sure if it as much of an advantage now?

Also depends a bit on your CAF trade. Being a PRes MSE Op helped me transition to driving 40-foot buses on my full-time career job.


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## Good2Golf (18 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> Of all the threads I have read on here, the most amazing is always "Pension wait times", and others like it.
> 
> I had never heard of anyone waiting a single day for their first pension cheque / deposit, or post-retirement benefits to begin. The transition was, and should be, seamless.


Do you mean non-CAF?  

I waited 7 months for mine, due to a DND/PWGSC screw up, then I got the back pay in the next year and got hammered on taxes.  Want to take a guess how compassionate CRA was to me for DND and PWGSC’s screw up?  Yup, I got nothing between sh*t and syphilis...


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Mar 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Do you mean non-CAF?
> 
> I waited 7 months for mine, due to a DND/PWGSC screw up, then I got the back pay in the next year and got hammered on taxes.  Want to take a guess how compassionate CRA was to me for DND and PWGSC’s screw up?  Yup, I got nothing between sh*t and syphilis...


Same for me. You almost would think they rig things that way to harvest extra tax revenue...


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Do you mean non-CAF?


Yes.


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## Weinie (18 Mar 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Same for me. You almost would think *they rig things that way to harvest extra tax revenue...*


How purely cynical of you. And I am sure that the fact that they levy taxes based on lump-sum pay raises, paid in one month, but by statute, taxable as if it were your annual income, is completely benign as well.


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## ff149 (18 Mar 2021)

I really lucked out in my transition. I was a military firefighter, part of my job was conducting inspections and I was even an instructor teaching it. TransitionEd to a full time prevention inspector for a large municipal fire service. It was a lot of studying as CAF uses national codes vice Ontario codes. Even though I had all the required carts my new services wanted me to do the training again, not an issue. The biggest thing I’ve had to deal with is to remember I’m not a supervisor now, it’s not my issue if staff aren’t following certain rules (within reason).


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## ModlrMike (19 Mar 2021)

I went from leading 70+ pers, to leading just me. Of course I've now somehow become the spokesperson for the seven of us at work, not to mention the 200 folks I'm going to command in six weeks.


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## mariomike (28 Mar 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I retired at 62% of my police salary and had two part-time jobs; mostly to stay active.  I didn't want to make lawn whirly-gigs in my basement.  When we bought our small farm, spare time left my vocabulary, but I suppose it paid off when we sold it ten years later.


My sister is a farmer/rancher out west. I considered something similar when my time came to retire. But, my wife 86'd it. Probably a good thing too. When my grandfather retired he bought a small farm. Dad and I used go help him. It was fun for me as a boy. But, Grandpa didn't know what he was doing. He had left the family farm at such a young age. It was like the TV show "Green Acres", for anyone old enough to remember. 

I understand some retire prematurely for health reasons. Others may postpone it for financial, or other, reasons.

I was fortunate to retire "on schedule" with the same organization I started with.  I've been retired a long time now.

There is a certain satisfaction when congregating with men you have known for almost 50 years. Maybe if only for the rather selfish reason of reminding each other of when we were young.


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## lenaitch (28 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> My sister is a farmer/rancher out west. I considered something similar when my time came to retire. But, my wife 86'd it. Probably a good thing too. When my grandfather retired he bought a small farm. Dad and I used go help him. It was fun for me as a boy. But, Grandpa didn't know what he was doing. He had left the family farm at such a young age. It was like the TV show "Green Acres", for anyone old enough to remember.
> 
> I understand some retire prematurely for health reasons. Others may postpone it for financial, or other, reasons.
> 
> ...



I've been gone 17 years and still get together with a bunch of old colleagues (pre-Covid) to tell 'war stories' and comment on current members, management, gossip, etc.

What we had was more of a hobby farm.  The missus/daughter knew about the horse-management side of things and the construction/maintenance side is generally pretty basic and rough construction, so well into my wheelhouse.  I didn't put myself in the same class as 'real farmers'.

I know a couple of members who stayed well after first retirement date, some for financial reasons (too many ex-spouses to support) but some simply because they were afraid to as they had no plan.  One member, who I did not really know, hung on to 50 years service, as a road warrior.  He created a bit of a conundrum with the pension people since, if he stayed longer, at 2%/year, his pension would be more than his pay.  As it was, he went out with 100% pension (actually more in his pocket since he is no longer paying into it, plus no Ass'n dues and a few other things).


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## mariomike (28 Mar 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I know a couple of members who stayed well after first retirement date, some for financial reasons (too many ex-spouses to support) but some simply because they were afraid to as they had no plan.


At my pre-retirement OMERS seminar, the instructor mentioned an attractive middle-aged widow who had a fondness for old, as in very old,  policemen. Apparently as her six ( 6 ) spouses died off, she collected a survivors pension ( *66 2/3% ) for each one of them!*



> *One member, who I did not really know, hung on to 50 years service, as a road warrior.*



*



*


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## george9315 (27 May 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not too sure I would want to work for a company that expects a thank you note for giving me an interview.
> 
> For some reason that reminds me of the last time I seen a PSO in Petawawa. Buddy made me about turn and read the school degrees he had on his wall. Literally.


Your not wrong, I mean, even before COVID-19 had begun, a new trend had started to take place. Ghosting...... Are you suppose to send a thank you to a company that didn't even bother to contact you regarding your interview or next steps? Too many companies will just literally ghost you, and you will be stuck waiting for a good week or two before its 'safe to assume' you didn't get the job.


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## OldSolduer (27 May 2021)

george9315 said:


> Your not wrong, I mean, even before COVID-19 had begun, a new trend had started to take place. Ghosting...... Are you suppose to send a thank you to a company that didn't even bother to contact you regarding your interview or next steps? Too many companies will just literally ghost you, and you will be stuck waiting for a good week or two before its 'safe to assume' you didn't get the job.


I was ghosted by my own employer on two occasions.


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## daftandbarmy (27 May 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I was ghosted by my own employer on two occasions.


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## RangerRay (27 May 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I was ghosted by my own employer on two occasions.


Sounds like my employer...


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## CBH99 (9 Jun 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Pensions in the private sector are basically all defined contributions if they are there at all now.
> 
> It mainly comes down to how you manage your money. For example if I work to 65 where I am at I shall receive a pension of about 1/3 my annual income. The Company pays about 2.85$ a hour worked into the pension and thats it for us. So the result is I need to save more money for retirement than a public sector employee would.
> 
> I have family members who have retired with full CF pensions and have squandered it all, living pay cheque to pay cheque (the only fortunate thing being those cheques are consistent). But receiving 70% of your income made well in the CAF is a fantastic thing and certainly a lot more than most receive for retirement.


Being reliable, down to earth, able to operate independently in a way that represents your employer well, while also saving them money or minimizing liability - golden qualities right there.  

Some of it may be somewhat trade dependant, but I’ve noticed certain traits or qualities in people that somewhat give them away as ex-military.  Being able to formulate a plan & execute on the plan in a way that represents the employer Welk, is one of those qualities.  

having them point with their whole hand, tell me to “standby”, or “Let’s get you squared away” are all solid giveaways too 😅


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## mariomike (9 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Being reliable, down to earth, able to operate independently in a way that represents your employer well, while also saving them money or minimizing liability - golden qualities right there.





> minimizing liability



Never, NEVER, admit the department has done anything wrong.


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## CBH99 (9 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> Never, NEVER, admit the department has done anything wrong.


I actually hate that one  LOL     I made that mistake quite early on when I was hired with SOLGEN, and boy did I learn to never do it again 👊


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## Good2Golf (9 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> ...having them point with their whole hand, tell me to “standby”, or “Let’s get you squared away” are all solid giveaways too 😅


Ah yes, ‘knife hand’...and don’t forget “say again (over)”.

That said, in my proportionately shorter time in industry (than service), I’ve also seen much behaviour from the list from civilians who never spent a minute in uniform.  Not only that, but there are also some crafty types that stealth through the recruiting process and and up being toxic influences...sometimes they’re thinned out, other times not...particularly if they align themselves with ‘slightly less than optimal’ leadership and craft top-cover.  

The most important point, if a service member is looking for a management/leadership position, it to have a resumé appropriately formatted AND tailored for the company/position they interested in. The resumé gives provides factual information as well as ‘hooks’ that can form lines-of-questioning during the interview.  A ‘generic’ resumé that can then be modified/tuned to the specific opportunity is a good methodology.  I once had an HR Partner thank me during an interview for keeping my resume to a single page (2-sided was ok, she said).  A good pool of references is also important.  As well, if the position is more a trade/qualification-related opportunity, a formatted resumé may be less critical per se, and more of a ‘job experience’ description with references for specific key periods of one’s service/employment, particular if a trade-like opportunity.

Overall fair input, but inclusive of issues not limited to military retirees. 

Regards


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