# Amnesty Int'l Not Buying ISAF Statements About Death of K'har Brothers



## The Bread Guy (26 Feb 2009)

At least Human Rights Watch holds the feet of BOTH sides of the conflict to the fire....

*"Accountability needed for civilian casualties in Afghanistan"*
Amnesty International report/news release, 26 Feb 09
News release - report (.html) - report (.pdf)


> ....The killing of two brothers in Kandahar in the middle of the night last January is a notable example of the lack of accountability of international forces.  Amnesty International’s research in Kandahar indicates that Abdul Habib and Mohammed Ali, who were unarmed, were shot at home at point blank range by international forces in camouflage uniforms.  More than a year later, no one has admitted responsibility despite enquiries by Amnesty International, the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and the United Nation’s Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Philip Alston .... So far, no one has accepted responsibility for the deaths of the two brothers. *The NATO-led International Security Assistance Forces (ISAF) told Amnesty International that no NATO/ISAF personnel were involved in the operation.* The US military has not acknowledged taking part in this incident.  However, Amnesty International has received information that the operation was conducted by personnel operating out of Firebase Gecko (also known as Firebase Maholic). This is located at the former home of Taleban leader Mullah Omar, which is now used as a US base....



From COMISAF's letter to Amnesty.....


> ....*Based on a complete review of NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) records and consultations with both Regional Command (South) and the Canadian forces in the area, I can inform you that we have no evidence of any ISAF involvement in the incident.* I can also relay that ISAF has no further information about the brothers’ actions or affiliations that may be germane to the circumstances of their deaths. ...
> 
> _t is my understanding that after being informed of the deaths, and also responding to inquiries from UNAMA and AIHRC, ISAF’s Regional Command (South) in Kandahar reviewed the incident and determined that ISAF troops were not involved. Therefore, given that its troops were not involved and having no additional information, ISAF conducted no further inquiry into this matter, considering it to be a matter for the Afghan authorities...._


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## OldSolduer (4 Mar 2009)

I'd like to see AI investigate Taliban caused civilian casualties, except they'd become casualties themselves.

I'm bitter,,,sorry.


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## leroi (4 Mar 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> I'd like to see AI investigate Taliban caused civilian casualties, except they'd become casualties themselves.
> 
> *I'm bitter,,,sorry.*



*You have every right to be.* 

Don't worry, OldSoldier, many people are watching their every word and statement.

I remember Prime Minister Harper, in a rare moment of self-reflection re: transfer prisoners, saying in despair, "I just wish the Canadian public cared about the plight of our CF members they way they do about the Taliban." (I'm quoting him inexactly but it was a rare public glimpse of the soul of the man who is our Prime Minister--2007, I think.) :yellow:


Edit: spellin' again


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## OldSolduer (4 Mar 2009)

Thank you leroi.

I'm tired, and bitter towards those people from CANADA who would seem to support people like the Taliban and AQ. It seems they will use any means necessary to undermine our nation's efforts in Afghanistan, and that includes investigating every instance of alleged ISAF responsibility for something bad happening. They never ever denounce the AQ or Taliban it seems. They just take the Taliban word at face value. I've never heard of AI investigating the Taliban....
I realize AI has a job to do...how about doing it fairly?
I am not bitter towards the people of Afghanistan, or the Taliban for that matter.


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## leroi (4 Mar 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Thank you leroi.
> 
> I'm tired, and bitter towards those people from CANADA who would seem to support people like the Taliban and AQ. It seems they will use any means necessary to undermine our nation's efforts in Afghanistan, and that includes investigating every instance of alleged ISAF responsibility for something bad happening. They never ever denounce the AQ or Taliban it seems. They just take the Taliban word at face value. I've never heard of AI investigating the Taliban....
> I realize AI has a job to do...how about doing it fairly?
> I am not bitter towards the people of Afghanistan, or the Taliban for that matter.



Yes, that is exactly the source of my bitterness too; and, I haven't ever come near experiencing what you have.  We can only remain vigilant and keep informed and keep writing letters so we can "catch them out" when they try to cheat truth. 

Seeing things through the lens of a university campus, which I feel is being subjected to an ever-increasing amount of propaganda, is embittering for me personally. I have to remind myself though, these agitators and activists are very small in number, usually uninformed, and are so far from the mark of rational discourse that they fall off the left-right political spectrum altogether. Naming them extreme left-wing, as I have done on a different thread, is an insult to anyone of the political left. I should like to apologize for that. 

I guess, we can appreciate that what makes our political system excellent, is that we allow people the voice of dissent. Even to the point that groups like the AI seem to work against us. We will be in trouble though when we start limiting this. The mere idea of banning Israeli academics from university as was recently suggested, drew shuddering fears across North American campuses. I was glad the University of Guelph stood up against this. Because if we do it to them, it will be Christians or another group next. 

I see more sad news for our troops today and it's with a humble and heavy heart that I post these words to you, OldSoldier. Thank you doesn't quite demonstrate my respect, gratitude and appreciation enough.  :yellow:


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Mar 2009)

I keep AI in the same box as the UN. I only look in it rarely, and when I do, it's not for long or with a very serious bent. Kinda like having an ant farm.


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## leroi (4 Mar 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I keep AI in the same box as the UN. I only look in it rarely, and when I do, it's not for long or with a very serious bent. Kinda like having an ant farm.



That's a good idea. I should do the same with the Globe & Mail comments section--which their now acknowledging has become the latest Canadian "blood sport."


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## Kilo_302 (9 Mar 2009)

> I'm tired, and bitter towards those people from CANADA who would seem to support people like the Taliban and AQ. It seems they will use any means necessary to undermine our nation's efforts in Afghanistan, and that includes investigating every instance of alleged ISAF responsibility for something bad happening. They never ever denounce the AQ or Taliban it seems. They just take the Taliban word at face value. I've never heard of AI investigating the Taliban....
> I realize AI has a job to do...how about doing it fairly?




http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/afghanistan/page.do?id=1011101

AI seems to be pretty critical of the Taliban, wouldn't you say? Since the Taliban generally trumpet every atrocity they commit, I guess you ARE right! Amnesty International does just take their word for it after all. Certainly makes their job easier! 

Click on the link, and check their archives. And read a bit, PLEASE.



> I have to remind myself though, these agitators and activists are very small in number, usually uninformed, and are so far from the mark of rational discourse that they fall off the left-right political spectrum altogether. Naming them extreme left-wing, as I have done on a different thread, is an insult to anyone of the political left. I should like to apologize for that.



Are you saying that AI is an agitator?  Does calling for an investigation into this matter makes you part of the extreme left wing? That doesn't sound like rational discourse to me either. It is simply childish and simplistic to paint anyone who is concerned about civvie deaths in Afghanistan as radical, or "off the spectrum" (assuming a political spectrum as convenient as "right" and "left" exists in the first place). Many who you associate with the "extreme left" would associate you with the "extreme right." Of course neither label does anyone justice, and nor do they serve real debate. So grow up.


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## leroi (10 Mar 2009)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Are you saying that AI is an agitator?  Does calling for an investigation into this matter makes you part of the extreme left wing? That doesn't sound like rational discourse to me either. It is simply childish and simplistic to paint anyone who is concerned about civvie deaths in Afghanistan as radical, or "off the spectrum" (assuming a political spectrum as convenient as "right" and "left" exists in the first place). Many who you associate with the "extreme left" would associate you with the "extreme right." Of course neither label does anyone justice, and nor do they serve real debate. So grow up.



No, I'm not referring to the AI. I'm sharing a thought with OldSoldier because I've observed similar behaviour of Canadians who'll jump all over the CF before facts have come to light. 

I"m referring to a university campus of about 17,000 students; about 10 of whom are "persons of interest" to the police--along with a loose following of about 20 or 30 others.

While claiming to be "peace activists" and sporting "Save Darfur Now" t-shirts, they have no qualms about issuing death threats to university presidents; spitting into the faces of soldiers (in the rare instance that CF members enter campus premises); chasing CF members off campus with attempts off violence; creating emergencies by blocking egress to busy campus buildings so that 8000 students can't enter or exit. ALL in the name of peace. Imagine.

This past summer, they blocked a major thoroughfare in this city in order to demonstrate for the rights of a local First Nations community--unfortunately they forgot to tell the respective native group they were doing it for them. Brilliant!

These same individuals make sure they get the most media attention and issue reams and reams of hate propaganda. (I have six pieces of propaganda--very shallow stuff--on my desk from last week.) The latest target: Israeli academics; one of the chief problems with that to start with is--as I'm sure you must know--there's as much diversity in the thinking of Israeli academics as their is in any other group. They don't all agree; even about Palestine.

As well, they can't offer any solutions to the problems of the world: they may walk around campus sporting "Save Darfur Now" t-shirts but if you ask them how they'd like to see Canada help, they don't have a clue. 

I will affirm my initial position; these people _are_ off the spectrum of rational discourse; and further, they're just plain evil--IMHO.

Please do not ascribe a political stripe to me; I don't wish to know you that well.

PS Yes, sir!


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## Kilo_302 (10 Mar 2009)

Well that does sound ridiculous. Which campus is this if you don't mind me asking? I'm at Trent (renowned for it's liberalism), and LCol Jamie Hammond was welcomed in my politics class which was great. On the other hand,  campus admin took down posters protesting Gaza (an imposition on free speech in my opinion). Campuses aren't that liberal anymore in my experience.


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## leroi (11 Mar 2009)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Which campus is this if you don't mind me asking?



University of Guelph.

We had (Ret'd) General Rick Hillier here not long ago; he was given the Lincoln Alexander Outstanding Leadership Award. Senator Romeo Dallaire was here last spring. Both under protest by the "attention-getting-few." Senator Dallaire was here when the the students were gone so he received less attention from the anti-military crowd.

Last week, two CF members were asked by the U of G to participate in our "Living Library" event. The CF kindly obliged. I was able to interview the Lieutenant and it was a rare treat to have them here.

Some of the ugliness that's characterized debate at Guelph these past two semesters is one of the reasons the Living Library event was held: to break down sterotypes so that past, present and future CF members, and others, feel welcome on campus.

Is that one event enough? No, but it's a start and an official acknowledgement of a problem.

As mentioned, it's a small number of students (and perhaps one professor) who aim always to disrupt and subvert.

 :highjack: back on topic ...


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## Padraig OCinnead (20 Mar 2009)

I am not surprised that they refused to believe the findings gathered from the evidence. They had their preconceived notions even before the investigation was launched, and I would guess that they had their prejudices against the investigation teams from the outset. The Cdn military police, or the CFNIS aren't transparent enough in their eyes. However, most of us would acknowledge that the MPs and the CFNIS have proven themselves mostly competent enough to seriously investigate allegations against CF personnel, and lay charges if the situation warrents it.

My .02

Paddy,


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