# "Hijab Dispute Could Be Behind Girl's Death, Friends Say"



## cameron_highlander (11 Dec 2007)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071211/Mississauga_murder_071211/20071211?hub=TopStories

I'm surprised no one's posted this yet. 

While the case is still before the courts, statements made by her friends regarding her changing clothes at school and staying away from home in fear...plus the obvious 'descent' of the accused make this seem awefully obvious as to what happened. 

I knew stuff like this would make it's way into Canada out of places like Pakistan, etc where killing women over minor religious infractions is the norm. Anyone surprised?


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## guns_and_roses (11 Dec 2007)

Yes, I watched it today on the news. Pretty sad but this is Canada, you have a choice. But they said wearing the Hijab is not part of the religion, just culture. The Father and Son are facing charges.


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> I'm surprised no one's posted this yet.



This was the article I read earlier today.  Note the huge difference in the headline:
"Teen dead after alleged attack by father"


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## geo (11 Dec 2007)

These honour killings are traditions that they have brought with them from the old country.
I am positive the father knows full well that he will be going to jail for what he has done BUT, felt that he had to control a daughter who had rebelled against her family and their traditions.

RIP Aqsa Parvez


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## 1feral1 (11 Dec 2007)

I am not suprised, and it will continue. 

All sorts of sickening things come out of this draconian 'dark ages' culture. Glad to see assimilation is alive and well in Canada (not). The same BS goes on here too. Honour killings etc, and the outright disrepect for our laws, and way of life. Goes to show you where their hearts and loyalities really are.

Sad, that some young person has to pay with their life (especially in Canada) for a bit of freedom most take for granted. All over a scarf. What a disgrace!! Those responsible should be deported, as they are not worthy of staying. 

Regards,

Wes


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## slowmode (12 Dec 2007)

Its sad that Muslims like this make me and all my other good Muslim brothers and sisters bad. This has to be one of the most disgusting things i've read all week, this guy should be sent to prison for life. A woman should be allowed to pick how she wants to dress, and if she wants to be heavily religious. Women are the same as men , this is another case of a Extremist Muslim making other good Muslims look bad.


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## ixium (12 Dec 2007)

Theres bad grapes in every bunch.


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## The_Falcon (12 Dec 2007)

This isn't the first "honour" killing in the GTA or Canada.  There have been a few over the past couple of years (not many though thankfully).  It makes you wonder what happens behind closed doors and how much of this stuff doesn't make it out into the light.


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## reccecrewman (12 Dec 2007)

slowmode,

Allthough it is a tragedy, I personally (and would hope most educated Canadians) don't hold it against all Muslims. I am too educated and have seen enough around the world (As have most Canadian soldiers) to know that there are good Muslims and Muslims who....... cling unto a different set of values and interpretations of Muslim law.  There are thousands of Muslims here in Canada who have wholeheartedly embraced Canadian culture and way of life while still maintaining a balance of keeping old traditions in the family.  I feel badly for the young girl and those her death affects. Hopefully, the father and brother will be punished accordingly.

Regards


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## The Bread Guy (12 Dec 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> This was the article I read earlier today.  Note the huge difference in the headline:
> "Teen dead after alleged attack by father"



I also noticed on one of the CBC national newscasts this morning that they spent ~20 seconds discussing this case, saying "religious practices may have played a role", and shortly afterwards devote 1 minute plus to a full report on orthodox Jews fighting for the right to NOT have to pull the plug on a relative on life support.  Interesting difference in approaches to two stories about religious beliefs affecting behaviour....

_(Foil Hat Alert:  No, this does NOT mean I believe in or support the idea that there's a Jewish conspiracy in the media, yadda, yadda, yadda....)_


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## Blindspot (12 Dec 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> Of course, CBC wouldn't publish anything to run contrary to the hard-held vision of Canada as multi-cultural freakin' utopia....but what do I know.



C'mon, you don't watch Little Mosque on the Prairie? Do yourself a favour and join the enlightened!


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## PMedMoe (14 Dec 2007)

Religion denied in girl's slaying
Imams speak out over killing
By JONATHAN JENKINS, SUN MEDIA
The Toronto Sun

Article Link

Islamic leaders met with the media yesterday to dispel what they said was the unfair association of the Muslim faith and a murder charge against a Mississauga father charged with strangling his daughter. 


Mohammad Ashraf, secretary general of the Islamic Society of North America, said the status of women in Islam is misunderstood in North America. 

*"It's being reported in the media that all woman are being forced, that they are subjugated and they need to be liberated," Ashraf said. "In Islam, women were liberated 1,400 years ago. Islam gives more rights to the women than western countries." *

Really??  Certainly doesn't seem so.


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## Bograt (14 Dec 2007)

Like the right to drive, or go to school, or share a husband?

Domestic violence is not limited to Muslim faith. I do find it difficult to comprehend what would drive a man to strangle his daughter over a scarf. What what I have read in the TO papers, I would like to see the victim's brother receive a throat punch.


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## geo (14 Dec 2007)

yup... they have the right to walk behind their husband.
The right to have their husband divorce them at the drop of a hat.... (or not divorcing them - banishing them to perpetual hell)


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## aesop081 (14 Dec 2007)

Bograt said:
			
		

> what would drive a man to strangle his daughter *over a scarf*.



Over anything for that matter


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## ROTP Applicant (14 Dec 2007)

I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries. Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.

This sick man does not represent Islam.


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## PMedMoe (14 Dec 2007)

I don't think anyone was saying it's the "norm" in Muslim countries.  I just think we find it difficult to believe that Islam gives women *more* freedom in many of those countries than they do in the Western world.


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## ROTP Applicant (14 Dec 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone was saying it's the "norm" in Muslim countries.  I just think we find it difficult to believe that Islam gives women *more* freedom in many of those countries than they do in the Western world.



Read the first post in this thread and you'll notice the "norm" assumption.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> I knew stuff like this would make it's way into Canada out of places like Pakistan, etc where killing women over minor religious infractions is the norm. Anyone surprised?


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## IN HOC SIGNO (14 Dec 2007)

Raising teens is a very difficult job. I raised two of my own and one of someone elses. The girl was the most difficult of the three. It is very difficult to understand how anyone could strangle their own daughter but this guy obviously lost it. Rebelliousness in teenagers is pretty normal here in North America but I'm guessing that growing up in Pakistan it was not the same for him. I'm betting that the headscarf was one of a myriad of things she was rebelling against.
When I was growing up it was long hair on boys, miniskirts and hot pants on girls and that hard driving acid rock that drove our parents crazy. I remember a really bitter fight with my father over the length of my hair one night....35 years later it's hard to believe we were arguing over hair. He refrained from strangling me but he might have felt like it...I was pretty obstinate.


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## Bograt (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.



So, I need to go to a 'progressive' country to see Muslim women enjoying the same freedoms as in the West. Progressive implies ahead of the mean- so you then concur that the 'average' country wouldn't be the same.

Civi U- before joining the CF I was an International Projects Manager for DFAIT and CIDA and had over 7 years of experience working abroad. Please do not imply that my views are close-minded. Like I said in a previous post, domestic violence is not isolated to the Muslim community. However, I took exception to the comments suggesting that their 'culture' provides women greater liberties. Give your head a shake. I think the ivory towers of academia are giving you hypoxia.


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## The_Falcon (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries. Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.
> 
> This sick man does not represent Islam.



Nice red herring there, picked that one up in school?  I guess while we visit these "progressive" countries, we can safely ignore the likes of Saudia Arabia, Syria, Sudan, Iran, Libya then I guess, unless you consider them progressive as well.


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## aesop081 (14 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Rebelliousness in teenagers is pretty normal here in North America but I'm guessing that growing up in Pakistan it was not the same for him.



So ?

Is he in Pakistan now ?

I hope he rots in jail


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## PMedMoe (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> Read the first post in this thread and you'll notice the "norm" assumption.



Okay, *one* person said it as opposed to your plural:



			
				Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> I'm not sure where you *guys* get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries.


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## ROTP Applicant (14 Dec 2007)

Bograt said:
			
		

> I think the ivory towers of academia are giving you hypoxia.



Has it ever occurred to you that I too, may be commenting on this issue based on my travels and my experience? If you need details, then feel free to PM me.

Yes, honour killings occur in non-progressive Muslim countries. And yes, some authorities do not condemn it. However, these actions are not the norm in any Muslim state. Just as most Christians would not want to be represented by the nuts at the Westboro Baptist Church or by the child-molesting Catholic priests. I am sure that Muslims would not want to be represented by animals like this murderer.



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Okay, *one* person said it as opposed to your plural.



Do you think that a person must specifically mention the word “norm” to imply his/her views on the issue?  



			
				Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Nice red herring there, picked that one up in school?  I guess while we visit these "progressive" countries, we can safely ignore the likes of Saudia Arabia, Syria, Sudan, Iran, Libya then I guess, unless you consider them progressive as well.



Picked what up in school? If you’re implying that honour killings are acceptable in the countries you mentioned above, then please provide facts/evidence to back your statement up. And please do not speak of the vast minority of Muslims that carry-out these senseless acts in those countries.

Edited to add a reponse to Hatchet Man.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Dec 2007)

I say let him free in the "general population" of whatever federal prison this CRIMINAL ends up in.

When you come to this country, don't expect the people who grew up here to understand your @(*#@(_*# ways such as honour killing and the like and say "oh ok, she didn't like the scarf.  we understand why you killed her."

Because we don't.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (14 Dec 2007)

Easy folks,.......I don't think every Father killing his family in North America this year has been Muslim.

Keep the prejudices out of this........


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## IN HOC SIGNO (14 Dec 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So ?
> 
> Is he in Pakistan now ?
> 
> I hope he rots in jail



Obviously he's not in Pakistan now and I too hope that justice is done. Like a lot of people including yourself I'm trying to understand how this tragedy occured....clash of cultures? To an extent. I suspect we'll know more as the reports come in. It may be just another violent controlling guy who snapped. Plenty of those who didn't grow up in Pakistan right here in Canada.


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## Bograt (14 Dec 2007)

For the third time in this post, let me reiterate, domestic abuse is not limited to Muslim populations.

What I do take particular exception to is being referred to as "small minded" and "prejudiced" because I don't support the idea that women enjoy greater liberties under Muslim religious dogma.  Based on what I have read in the TO media, the victims brother consistently harassed her about wearing the hagib (sp). It is implied that he abused her as well.  He is 26 years old and she was 16. That 'runt' deserves as much as his father.


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## 1feral1 (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries. Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.
> 
> This sick man does not represent Islam.



I don't know what flavour of hiesh your puffing on pal, time for a reality check.

Pakistan, ya, heaps of radicals there, and thats where Dan Pearl lost his head, OBL is hiding, and there is lots of support there for the other side. Pakistan is extreme, and held together by chewing gum and pubic hair in the bottom of a dirty urinal as far as I am concerned.

I have been to 5 islamic countries, one of them for 207 days in a very unstable deadly environment. Lots of wierd shit goes on in these festering boils on the arsehole of our phucked up planet. Its another planet in the arab world.

Women have no rights (compared to our western countries), risk stoning for outragous silly reasons, can't even leave the house with a male family escort in MANY cases, many are forced to wear unbearable clothing in 50C weather, now they bring their customs and traditions to the west, and many refuse to assimilate, and respect our laws.

To say women have more rights than in the west is crap, and coming from this iman, I am not suprised to see his outright arrogance (typical - heard this attitude here all too often by their so called community leaders - the same ones that claim OBL is a good man) and it just plains sickens me to thoughts I better not say on here. I will say I am totally uncomfortable with what I see, not only in my homeland of Canada, but here to in the muslim ghettos of western Sydney, where being a WASP can literally cost you your life, or at the least feel so intimidated you leave the area.

Frankly I have had a dirty great big GIANT gutful of it all.

Assimilate or go home! There are many out there who do, have good jobs, raising families, have adopted Canada with open arms, embellishing themselves in our customs and traditions, loving hockey and the rest of our Canadianisms. All the power to them to contribute to our society, but there is also the other side of the coin, and its these ones which scare me. Hiding behind that dangerous dark ages menatality with extreme cultural views and beliefs, and forcing them (threats and intimidation) on others is wrong, and immoral.

Don't like my opinion Civ, write your MP! I'll even call you a whaaaaaaambulance if you like, so don't go playing the PC card here. 

I've done my time, and have earned my opinion, not through the media, or a book, but through life experience, not in happy big ME cities which cater to some western music and some lifestyles, but in the most darkest of times, in the most isolated country regions, some reaching out to the Iranian frontier, where you see the real country, and the real people, and the reality of it all.


Wes


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## IN HOC SIGNO (14 Dec 2007)

The accusations are hitting a nerve in the Islamic community. 

Usual disclaimers
the chronicle herald                   Published: 2007-12-14

Leaders: Don’t blame Islam

Girl’s slaying should not reflect on religion

By JERED STUFFCO The Canadian Press

TORONTO — Islamic leaders rose to the defence of their religion Thursday as the Muslim community continued to grieve the death of a 16-year-old girl — and deny suggestions that her slaying should in any way be interpreted as a reflection on their faith.

Islam condemns violence and teaches adherents not to force their beliefs upon others, Sheik Alaa El-Sayyed, imam at Mississauga’s Islamic Society of North America, told a news conference in the suburban city west of Toronto that was once home to Aqsa Parvez.

The high school student, who died late Monday in hospital, was embroiled in a long-standing dispute with her family over her apparent reluctance to wear the hijab, the traditional Muslim head scarf, her school friends say.

Police were summoned to her home after a man called 911 to say he’d killed his daughter.

Parvez’s father Muhammad, a taxi driver in Mississauga, is in custody and charged with murder. He has not yet entered a plea.

Police have also charged his 26-year-old son, Waqas, with obstructing police in connection with his sister’s death. He was scheduled to appear in court Friday for a bail hearing.

"The bottom line is, it’s a domestic violence issue," El-Sayyed said.

"We, as Muslims, are Canadians and we should be dealt with just like everyone else. We have rights, duties . . . pros and cons just like all other human beings."

Autopsy results released Wednesday found Parvez died of "neck compression."

The tragedy has underscored a controversial and heated public debate about women’s rights within Canada’s Islamic communities, and inflamed existing tensions already strained by what Muslim leaders say is ignorance and misunderstanding in Canadian society.

Women ultimately have the choice of whether or not they want to wear a hijab, but Islam teaches that such women occupy a more advanced position within the religion, El-Sayyed said.

"When I look at a woman who is covered, I look at her as a soul, a person, a mentality — not a physical or sexual object," he said.

Muslim women who wear veils might not "look pretty," but their modest dress protects them, he added.

Mohammad Iqbal Alnadvi, a marriage counsellor and religious expert at the Al-Fatah Islamic Centre in Oakville, said he believes it’s important for parents in Muslim families to give their daughters a choice when it comes to decisions of dress.

"My daughter, she’s going into Grade 11, and she’s taking the hijab," Alnadvi said.

"I never asked her to take the hijab, but I developed a mentality in her to choose — it is her choice."


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## Dare (14 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Muslim women who wear veils might not "look pretty," but their modest dress protects them, he added.


Sure does. Protects them from getting strangled.


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## 1feral1 (14 Dec 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> [glow=red,2,300]Easy folks,.......I don't think every Father killing his family in North America this year has been Muslim.



True Bruce, its usually over money, divorce, jealousy, rage, or other reasons, not for honour, or because of a scarf, religion, or modest dress.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Dare (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that this is the norm in Muslim countries. Many believe that all Muslim women apparently have to walk 5 feet behind the men, cannot drive, cannot go to school, etc. However, go to any progressive Muslim country such as Turkey, Egypt or even some parts of Pakistan (e.g. Karachi) where all of your close-minded stereotypes of Islam are just that, stereotypes.
> 
> This sick man does not represent Islam.


I just wanted to state that honour killings are indeed a problem, and have been documented at places like littlegreenfootballs.com .So much a problem that the Turkish government (as can be seen in one of the stories listed below) has been cracking down on the practice. The Brits are looking into it too. This should not be minimized or dismissed as an aberration or unrelated to religious creed. It is a specific problem that does not always end at murder.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchWith=lgf&searchWhat=entries&searchFrom=2001-02-07&searchTo=2007-12-14&searchString=%22honor+killings%22&maxPerPage=25


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## ROTP Applicant (14 Dec 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> I don't know what flavour of hiesh your puffing on pal, time for a reality check.


I’m not your pal.



			
				Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Don't like my opinion Civ, write your MP!


Well at least you recognize that your rant is nothing more than an opinion.

If the whole point of your rant is to state “assimilate or go home,” then you obviously do not know the principles behind immigration to Canada. This man’s actions do not reflect on the lack of his “assimilation” into Canadian society. He is an exception to the millions of Canadian immigrants who do not need to assimilate and change their ways of life in order to be contributing members of Canadian society.   



			
				Dare said:
			
		

> I just wanted to state that honour killings are indeed a problem, and have been documented at places like littlegreenfootballs.com .So much a problem that the Turkish government (as can be seen in one of the stories listed below) has been cracking down on the practice. The Brits are looking into it too. This should not be minimized or dismissed as an aberration or unrelated to religious creed. It is a specific problem that does not always end at murder.
> 
> http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchWith=lgf&searchWhat=entries&searchFrom=2001-02-07&searchTo=2007-12-14&searchString=%22honor+killings%22&maxPerPage=25



Of course it is a problem, no one is disputing this. However, it is not simply a problem in the Islamic world as many of you may believe. Very similar problems exist in such countires as Haiti, Columbia and Brazil where husbands have often been allowed, under the criminal code, to kill their wives for committing adultery. 

Edited to add a response to Dare.


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## 1feral1 (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> I’m not your pal.
> Well at least you recognize that your rant is nothing more than an opinion.
> 
> If the whole point of your rant is to state “assimilate or go home,” then you obviously do not know the principles behind immigration to Canada. This man’s actions do not reflect on the lack of his “assimilation” into Canadian society. He is an exception to the millions of Canadian immigrants who do not need to assimilate and change their ways of life in order to be contributing members of Canadian society.



Thats right I am not your pal, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how I was using the word.

As for immigrants and the principles of it, I am one myself, so got it covered, so don't go preaching about it Mr O/Cdt. I know what it is like to come to a foreign land with nothing, start over, and fall in love not only with the culture, the landscape, and its people, but to fall in love with a new life, and a new beginning, and NOT living in the past, hiding behind some draconian way of life, and forcing that on  a new generation of young people, who obviously want to spread their wings and fit in, like that poor girl who was murdered.

We should never forget where we come from, but without assimilation, we have not a country as a whole, but a country full of tribes, not working together, but pulling a part. If you can't see that, your blind.

Once you grow up, and get a bit of life experience behind you, I am sure you'll understand.

Most who post on here are expressing their opinions. What are you doing besides making an arse out of yourself.

EDITed for clarity and spelling

Wes


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## Gunner (14 Dec 2007)

Let's keep the discussion civil and not resort to personal attacks.  If it does, the thread gets locked.

Army.ca Staff


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## wannabe SF member (14 Dec 2007)

The problem is very wide, it doesn't always get to murder, there are lots of cases of wives or daughters that are beaten, mistreated etc... because they disobey their husbands and all this in our fair country. 
Although i reject the muslim faith, i am from a moderate muslim family and sadly, i am sometimes  brought to meet such extremists who mistreat wives and children. these extremists that refuse to assimilate, that mistrust everyone, that think they are above the law. These men are the root of the problem and they should be dealth with promptly before they become a cancer for this society.

The fact is that the problem is bigger than just the few murder cases, each day women in canada are mistreated for that kind of rubbish.

(psne of them had the nerve to ask me quit the cadets, this really shows were their loyalty lies)


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## IN HOC SIGNO (14 Dec 2007)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Let's keep the discussion civil and not resort to personal attacks.  If it does, the thread gets locked.
> 
> Army.ca Staff



I agree Gunner that the ad hominem attacks should cease (as per the guidelines) but let's not lock up another topic just because a couple of people are squabbling...I think that the subject is important and there is some degree of merit to the discussion.


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## Dare (14 Dec 2007)

Chawki Bensalem said:
			
		

> The problem is very wide, it doesn't always get to murder, there are lots of cases of wives or daughters that are beaten, mistreated etc... because they disobey their husbands and all this in our fair country.
> Although i reject the muslim faith, i am from a moderate muslim family and sadly, i am sometimes  brought to meet such extremists who mistreat wives and children. these extremists that refuse to assimilate, that mistrust everyone, that think they are above the law. These men are the root of the problem and they should be dealth with promptly before they become a cancer for this society.
> 
> The fact is that the problem is bigger than just the few murder cases, each day women in canada are mistreated for that kind of rubbish.
> ...


Agreed. This is one issue that the west in particular should stand tall and strong on. This not acceptable behavior. This is an issue that must be dealt with swiftly and broadly. It must be shown that it is far more shameful to kill and injure those you care about. The logic should be that the individual is a much bigger man by being so confident in his faith knowing that its truth will lead the woman back to it and that only someone weak in faith would not believe otherwise. We must make this moral argument a top concern as it is now a domestic issue. We must stand firm on the principles of our laws and customs. If we do not we will have enclaves carved out that we may one day have to retake by force. Practices such as this are a very good metric to gauge proclivity towards extremism and disregard to our laws. Real men don't beat their wives. It's that simple. It may not be simple for an extremist to understand that, but that's where the standing tall and strong comes in.


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## The_Falcon (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> Picked what up in school? If you’re implying that honour killings are acceptable in the countries you mentioned above, then please provide facts/evidence to back your statement up. And please do not speak of the vast minority of Muslims that carry-out these senseless acts in those countries.
> 
> Edited to add a reponse to Hatchet Man.



My mistake, either you fell asleep in English class, or your just playing with us, cause your still at it.  I never said or implied honour killings were acceptable in the countries I listed.  I was replying to your statement that the typical muslim stereotypes WRT womens rights (walk behind the man, women must be escorted) were just that in the "progressive"  : countries you listed.  I was just pointing out that there quite a few countries out there where this "stereotype" is in fact the norm, and in some cases codified into law.


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## bigguy (14 Dec 2007)

There are  wackos in every religion and/or culture, let's not use a wide brush


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## wannabe SF member (14 Dec 2007)

bigguy said:
			
		

> There are  wackos in every religion and/or culture, let's not use a wide brush


We are not using the big brush we are talking about the muslim religion in particular because it is invollved in the current subject. :


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## Dare (14 Dec 2007)

bigguy said:
			
		

> There are  wackos in every religion and/or culture, let's not use a wide brush


Wide problems need wide brushes. This is a cultural problem and needs a cultural solution. Those who advocate continuing it on a case by case basis are not seeing the bigger picture and are in fact pushing a trend that allows it to continue. It is very much along the line of those who say terrorism must only be fought with law enforcement methods in a civil system. They're both much larger problems. Yes, other cultures have wife beaters. This isn't as simple as that. It is physical intimidation to a religious cause. Efforts to stifle any independent thought of free will. The west is not a theocracy and we must not allow despotic theocrats to setup camps in our great countries. You can try to scalpel away the offenders to only have them be replaced from that which was not touched due to fear of the big brush. The brush is momentum. This big brush is being used against the west in every way possible. We are on our heels culturally and not prepared to push the momentum back. Not everyone can fully understand the intricacies of these cultural problems, but they can be shown the big brush to support the general idea. What it boils down to is countering propaganda and counterpropaganda. Ceeding iniciative to the enemy to organicly grow an outpost in our backyards is generally a pretty poor idea of national defense. It is akin to the idea if we setup little Canada's in say Afghanistan, where we import Canadians and refuse their laws/authority and start to grow a mini nation within the state. Or if nazi Germany was allowed to import nazi loyal Germans into create what they would certainly call an outpost of the Reich. 

Anyways, I do take serious issue with people who can dismiss logical ideas and concepts as "broad brush" because they do not see the "bigger picture" that brush is used on. No one here is saying all Muslims beat their wives but I bet there are enough who feel they are allowed to to make it a serious problem worthy of finding a remedy.


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## Dare (14 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> Of course it is a problem, no one is disputing this. However, it is not simply a problem in the Islamic world as many of you may believe. Very similar problems exist in such countires as Haiti, Columbia and Brazil where husbands have often been allowed, under the criminal code, to kill their wives for committing adultery.
> 
> Edited to add a response to Dare.


Alright. Having just looked that up, I found that it is not legal to kill ones wife in either Colombia or Brazil anymore. It is still legal in Haiti and then any other country mentioned it being legal or frequently practiced in is a Muslim nation. And outside of these nations it is most commonly done by Muslim residents/immigrants. Again. A large cultural problem. Please do not distort the scope and facts. The Turkish government has decided it is a real problem. One of the most western Muslim nations and a NATO ally. Do you think Turkey is concerned about Colombian honour killings? Or Haitian? I doubt it very much.


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## 1feral1 (14 Dec 2007)

Dare, the guy is trolling, you should see the PMs I have been getting.  :

Cheers,

Wes


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## bigguy (14 Dec 2007)

Dare and Chawki, I guess I was over simplifling things. I agree with what you are saying .


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## ROTP Applicant (14 Dec 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Dare, the guy is trolling, you should see the PMs I have been getting.  :
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes



Why don't you post all of my and your PMs to show how much I am "trolling"?


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## 1feral1 (14 Dec 2007)

You've got issues, and your attitude is going to get this locked.

Stay on track or disappear.


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## aesop081 (14 Dec 2007)

its break time folks......24 hours

Milnet.ca staff


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## old medic (15 Dec 2007)

Short CP wire article:

Waqas Parvez, older brother of slain teen, out on bail



> BRAMPTON--The older brother of a
> slain 16-year-old who reportedly clashed
> with her family for refusing to wear tradi-
> tional Muslim garb was freed on bail Fri-
> ...



This thread will re-open later this evening,
as per CDN Aviator's post.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Dec 2007)

Civi U(ntrained) said:
			
		

> Very similar problems exist in such countires as Haiti, Columbia and Brazil where husbands have often been allowed, *under the criminal code*, to kill their wives for committing adultery.
> 
> Edited to add a response to Dare.



I am re-reading your posts, and not quite able to 'connect the dots' as to your overall message.  In ref to the quote above, while that is tragic and horrific, the key difference is the one I bolded.  I will state the obvious here and say...

In Canada, it is NOT allowed under the criminal code.

So, here lies my question/statement:

You are posting alot in this thread, but I am not getting the clear message you are trying to get across.  So...what IS your message, in clear, simple form?

My ancestory is Irish and Scottish.  I don't know of many Irish girls that are killed over clothing, that are in the news, in Canada, in the last 10-20 years.  

Please keep whatever your reply may be relevant to the topic, and lets not sidetrack to the issue of Northern Ireland in the past and 'the troubles'.

Oh, and Merry Christmas!


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