# Wearing an Ancestor's Medals Mega-thread



## Jonny Boy

I was just wondering, I think cadets used to be allowed. I personally don't thing it would be a good idea because you did not personally earn them and it is glorifying the war. well that is why my papa never wore his after the war because he was not proud of them and they reminded him of what he had to do.

Anyway, just wondering because I have like 16 at home from 3 of my family members. If I were to get all of them, it would be impossible to wear them. lol

Moderator edit: Punctuation and capital letters, along with proper spelling is your friend.
~Burrows


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## aesop081

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> i was just wondering i think cadets used to be allowed. i personally don't thing it would be a good idea because you did not personally earn them and it is glorifying the war. well that is why my papa never wore his after the war because he was not proud of them and they reminded him of what he had to do.
> 
> anyway just wondering i have like 16 at home from 3 of my family members if i were to get all of them it would be impossible to wear them lol



I don't think cadets should be allowed to wear family member's medals but if they were, how would that be glorifying the war.  Wasn't our participation in both wars a noble enterprise ?  Did canadians not volunteer in mass to defeat an evil and terible thing ?


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## condor888000

NO!!!!!! You did not earn them, why the hell should you be allowed to wear them???? Fact is, you shouldn't! You didn't do anything to deserve them!

I can't get to the CATO's currently, but if I remeber correctly there's a list of approved medals.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Nobody should wear others medals, they are about[or should be] so much more than show.


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## 1feral1

Yes. On Rememberance Day only, on the right side.

Infact this is strongly encouraged for all family members to do so here on ANZAC Day, as soon the old Diggers will all be gone. My spouse wears her Fathers, and is so proud of his RAAF service fighting off the Japs in Darwin.

This is refered to passing the torch of the ANZACs. Here is the front page of the ANZAC Day addition news paper April 2004.

There is nothing disrespectful about it all all, infact its called respect and pride.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
Ther is nothing disrespectful about it all all, infact its called pride.

...Wes, though I get where you are coming from I don't need to stick Dad's medals on my chest to show others that I'm proud of what he did,...........its the only place I need it to be..deep inside of everything that I am.


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## 1feral1

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> it is glorifying the war.



Come on Hutch, far from it!

Thats okay Bruce, but they see things different here, and thats why only one day a year its allowed. Infact the whole view Australians have towards their Vets and the Military in general   is totally enlightening here, and in my view a 180 degree difference from Canada.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Good catch, Wes, totally skipped that sentence.......and I guess Remembarence Day ceromonies do the same thing  eh, Hutch? :


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## Big Foot

In Canada, the wearing of medals contravenes provisions set forth by the Criminal Code of Canada. So whether it should be allowed or not is irelevant, as at least in Canada, it is illegal. That said, it gives me a measure of pride to display my grandfather's medals proudly in my room, despite the fact I cannot wear them. I feel that on Remembrance day, at very least, it should be permitted.


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## 1feral1

Big Foot said:
			
		

> In Canada, the wearing of medals contravenes provisions set forth by the Criminal Code of Canada. That said, it gives me a measure of pride to display my grandfather's medals proudly in my room



Canada should ammend their CC.

Pride. Now thats what I want to hear. Good on ya! 

Wes


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## LF(CMO)

This is a very interesting topic and I've heard it debated many times.   My understanding is that it is illegal in Canada to wear someone else's war medals even if it's your Dad, Grandfather etc.   However, the president of the local Airborne Asso ,a very good friend of mine, reads the same thing and interperts it that it is legal if you wear them on the opposite side.

 Will Byrd, who wrote the WW I classic, "Ghosts Have Warm Hands" said in his book that it is your duty to wear them (on the opposite side) on Nov 11 ONLY.

 I wore my Dad's on my RCL Blazer after my Dad passed away on the next Nov 11.   I discontinued it after as to not cause any controversy.   One of my grandsons ( age 5) wore his great'grandfather's on last Nov 11.

 Evidently it is legal in Australia and very much encouraged.   I had some friends over here from Aus and they were 'shocked' that Canadians didn't follow that as well and they blamed it some outdated rule forced on us by the POMIES!   Their rationale was, " what better way to commemorate what your ancestors did for their country".   

 I agree with the Australian viewpoint.   They are more nationalistic than we are, as a rule ,and more inclined to do their own thing!


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Again, its got nothing to do with the pride I feel about my father, the way I would see it is that I'm trying to show others and I don't need to show others what I feel.
And on top of that I think you would see lots sporting them just for the "look" effect and that would really cheese me off.


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## Big Foot

I checked into whether I would be allowed to wear my grandfather's medals on my uniform at the remembrance day ceremony in Ottawa this past November 11 and was told that unfortunately, it is not permitted, although I know of many other people who would proudly wear medals of their ancestors on the right side of their scarlets. To look to the future, we must first look at where we came from. What better way to do that than to look at service in previous wars. It is not glorifying war, it is honouring the memory of those who have gone before us, and I think that we should be able to have visible reminders of where we came from. With the thinning ranks of veterans, we must eventually allow relatives of veterans to wear the medals, else we run the risk of forgetting what terrible events we fought through. As it is said on November 11, Lest We Forget. The key to not forgetting is showing pride in our past, even if it is a violent, brutal past of war. We must always remember otherwise we will repeat past mistakes. Have pride, this is an issue I feel should be brought to local MPs in an effort to change the way things are. Complaining will do nothing if it is not directed through the proper channels. Law makers will take notice if enough people ask for change.


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## gunner56

I just want to know where to get my dad's WWII medals plated,and remounted.Not that I want to,or would wear them,I just want to frame them and put them on the wall next to his service photo(RCAF).


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## Love793

Regardless of the Belief or CATO(s), (which by the way you will not find any mention of it).   It is illegal under the CCC to wear any persons medals for which YOU did not earn.   Just as it is illegal to SELL any medal that YOU have earned.   Is it unfair to people that just want to show pride in what their famaily members accomplished, maybe.   However, it's probably more unfair, and disrepectful for some person to wear medals they don't earn.   There are to many people out there who think they'rer cool by wearing medals.   Most people don't even know what the medal is or represents.   The one that really comes to mind is the German Iron Cross.   It has come to be associated with Nazi Germany (1933-45), when in fact is a German Valour Medal.   Would you like someone purchasing a medal and just wearing it, how do you prove he bought it, how do you prove it was not awarded to is great uncle twice removed?

The best way to perserve memories this way is to get them framed and mounted on a wall.   This is what I did with my late fathers UNCyp w/bar, UNEF1, UNEF2, Canadian Peacekeeping Medal, Queens Julibee and CD. It's your safest bet.


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## Love793

gunner56 said:
			
		

> I just want to know where to get my dad's WWII medals plated,and remounted.Not that I want to,or would wear them,I just want to frame them and put them on the wall next to his service photo(RCAF).



Great Idea.  Try going to a Photography Shop.  Generally they have prices for framing and mounting.  You might be able to get replacement ribbons for the medals from ASU.  After 60 yrs the ribbons may be worn and tattered. ASU should have the ribbons.


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## Jonny Boy

aesop081 said:
			
		

> I don't think cadets should be allowed to wear family member's medals but if they were, how would that be glorifying the war.  Wasn't our participation in both wars a noble enterprise ?  Did Canadians not volunteer in mass to defeat an evil and terrible thing ?



my papa was in the British royal navy. my mom always told me that after the war he got 6 medals and he never put them on once.  from what i heard he was and was not proud of what he did. when it comes to the fighting and having his best friends die right beside him on a life raft in the middle of the Indian ocean after his ship was sunk i really dint think he wanted to be reminded. i guess when he saw the medals it reminded him of those times. they did participate in defeating a very evil person but i guess you would have to go through what he went through to truly understand.


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## Jonny Boy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Good catch, Wes, totally skipped that sentence.......and I guess Remembrance Day ceremonies do the same thing eh, Hutch? :




OK i said glorify for lack of better words and i apologize. it is not glorifying but it is a memories of war to some people. and to some people they are bad memories. 

and Bruce i would never in my life time say that remembrance day is glorifying war and i am severely insulted as a Canadian that you would say such a thing. i am very proud of all the veterans that fought and died and i will always remember them everyday of the year. one day is not enough. plus the history channel is my favorite station i am very interested in all the documentaries


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## aesop081

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> OK i said glorify for lack of better words and i apologize. it is not glorifying but it is a memories of war to some people. and to some people they are bad memories.
> 
> and Bruce i would never in my life time say that remembrance day is glorifying war and i am severely insulted as a Canadian that you would say such a thing. i am very proud of all the veterans that fought and died and i will always remember them everyday of the year. one day is not enough. plus the history channel is my favorite station i am very interested in all the documentaries



Ok then, i can accept that.

33 posts and verbal warning already ?  You and armyboi69 know eachother ?.....lol


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## Michael Dorosh

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Yes. On Rememberance Day only, on the right side.
> 
> Infact this is strongly encouraged for all family members to do so here on ANZAC Day, as soon the old Diggers will all be gone. My spouse wears her Fathers, and is so proud of his RAAF service fighting off the Japs in Darwin.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes


This used to be permitted in Canada also, but is no longer considered acceptable, for good or for bad.


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## Scratch_043

Voted 'yes' by mistake, my mouse was acting funny.

I do not believe that cadets should be allowed to wear medals on their uniform. a proper display of pride at your relative(s)'s aveivments would be to display the medals, as has been mentioned before, hanging on a wall, or in a display, etc.

My father had his father's medals, and his own put under glass in a nice frame, and they are now in his study. When I join and make acheivments, my awards will be added to them. It is a great tradition to start, and they are seen and remembered more, every time you walk into the room, rather than seeing them once or twice a year on a uniform, which didn't even belong to the person who earned the awards.


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## Inch

IMO, the only medals you should be wearing are your own. After my grandfather died, I was given his medals, his dog tags, his 436 Sqn crest and a photo of him just prior to shipping off to Burma. Here's what I did with it all, my mom cried when I showed her. 

I had the photo restored, medals court mounted and cleaned, and everything framed as you see here.


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## aesop081

Inch said:
			
		

> IMO, the only medals you should be wearing are your own. After my grandfather died, I was given his medals, his dog tags, his 436 Sqn crest and a photo of him just prior to shipping off to Burma. Here's what I did with it all, my mom cried when I showed her.
> 
> I had the photo restored, medals court mounted and cleaned, and everything framed as you see here.



Now that is a realy good way to do it...........


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## Michael Dorosh

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Now that is a realy good way to do it...........



My dad never had any medals, he was only in for three years in the Militia, but I made him cry at Christmas once also - framed his photo, along with the RCA cap badge, a set of bombardier chevrons, and a brass plaque with his name, rank and unit on it.  I think the wine helped him along, but it was a nice reaction. 

At a gun show, I found a flash for his battery and added it in later.  I wonder how many of these little displays there are across the country.

Maybe we need a photo gallery at army.ca of these framed displays.  I know RSM McCumber's son, who posts here, has some really great framed presentations and many are already in the gallery.


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## aesop081

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> My dad never had any medals, he was only in for three years in the Militia, but I made him cry at Christmas once also - framed his photo, along with the RCA cap badge, a set of bombardier chevrons, and a brass plaque with his name, rank and unit on it.   I think the wine helped him along, but it was a nice reaction.
> 
> At a gun show, I found a flash for his battery and added it in later.   I wonder how many of these little displays there are across the country.
> 
> Maybe we need a photo gallery at army.ca of these framed displays.   I know RSM McCumber's son, who posts here, has some really great framed presentations and many are already in the gallery.



Sounds like a realy good idea Micheal.........


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## Scott

Good on you, Inch! I am in the process of doing something similar for my Dad.


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## tabernac

LF(CMO) said:
			
		

> This is a very interesting topic and I've heard it debated many times.   My understanding is that it is illegal in Canada to wear someone else's war medals even if it's your Dad, Grandfather etc.   However, the president of the local Airborne Asso ,a very good friend of mine, reads the same thing and interperts it that it is legal if you wear them on the opposite side.
> 
> Will Byrd, who wrote the WW I classic, "Ghosts Have Warm Hands" said in his book that it is your duty to wear them (on the opposite side) on Nov 11 ONLY.
> 
> I wore my Dad's on my RCL Blazer after my Dad passed away on the next Nov 11.   I discontinued it after as to not cause any controversy.   One of my grandsons ( age 5) wore his great'grandfather's on last Nov 11.
> 
> Evidently it is legal in Australia and very much encouraged.   I had some friends over here from Aus and they were 'shocked' that Canadians didn't follow that as well and they blamed it some outdated rule forced on us by the POMIES!   Their rationale was, " what better way to commemorate what your ancestors did for their country".
> 
> I agree with the Australian viewpoint.   They are more nationalistic than we are, as a rule ,and more inclined to do their own thing!


I completely agree with this, including only wearing the medals on the 11th of November (with the miniturized set for cadets). IMO I find it disheartening that so many here do not like the idea. 



			
				ToRN said:
			
		

> I do not believe that cadets should be allowed to wear medals on their uniform. a proper display of pride at your relative(s)'s aveivments would be to display the medals, as has been mentioned before, hanging on a wall, or in a display, etc.


I don't completely agree with this because few, if any people would ever see they're acheivements.


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## gun plumber

You did not earn them,therefore your not entitled to wear them.If you want to remember,have them remounted,matted on their regimental colors and maybe if you can find it,their original capbadge.Looks very smart and is a excellent way to preserve your families history.


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## tabernac

gun plumber said:
			
		

> You did not earn them,therefore your not entitled to wear them.If you want to remember,have them remounted,matted on their regimental colors and maybe if you can find it,their original capbadge.Looks very smart and is a excellent way to preserve your families history.



My problem with mounting them is the NO ONE(out side of the family) sees the medals. Having a family member killed while serving, then not remembering they're sacrifices, is the last thing they wanted. Then you might say "That is why we have Remembrance Day." Well in my opinion, wearing the medals of you Grand-father/father/uncle/great-uncle is the of the utmost respect for them, and they're sacrifice. When you wear they're medals you are essentially saying "I remember you, and to me you are the most important person not only on this day, but through out every year you have not been with us."


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## Scratch_043

I could post the one that I have, (pretty basic)

but My digicam is an hour away at my sister's right now :-\

(Sorry for the bit of a change in topic)
Nic


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## my72jeep

gunner56 said:
			
		

> I just want to know where to get my dad's WWII medals plated,and remounted.Not that I want to,or would wear them,I just want to frame them and put them on the wall next to his service photo(RCAF).


I just had a friends grandfathers redone as a Xmas present went to the civ Tailor on CFB Borden and she sent them to the girl who does them for base supply.but if you look at the top of the page there is an add for some one who does it. Iron horse Medals)


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## 1feral1

I forgot to mention in my last post. On ANZAC Day I wear (with my Poly dress uniform) my two gongs, and the right, medals of my Great Uncle 267104 PTE RF Allen late 28th Bn - DOW at Passchendaele 07 Nov 1917), on the right. 

Its common to see here (not only Aussies, but all former BCW soldiers and families), serving soldiers (from PTE to GEN) wearing their relative's medals on the right on ANZAC Day. Its as common is the ordinary bloke, woman or young child in ANZAC marches wearing them too.

Quite touching and shows a great deal of national pride and thanks for our freedom, and for our serving ADF members.

I really wish I could describe the feeling on ANZAC Day, and for those of you who have seen George Street Sydney on 25 Apr, I guess you'll understand. One of the most amazing things I saw was two kids, both about 5 or 6 yrs old. The boy in period WW1 Light Horse ANZAC dress, and the girl in period Aussie WW1 nursing dress, holding hands as they 'marched' in down George Street with their Vet grandparents and family.   I really wish I could explain it, but you have to live it I guess. 

ANZAC Day 2004 saw over 25,000 soldiers, Vets and family members representing those who can't be there, or have since passed on, in the Sydney march. Some wearing medals on the left, some on the right, some on both, some not at all. 

Crowds estimated at 500,000+ lined George Street, and the the Vets march by, flags wave, and there is a general applause from the crowds. Impressive to say the least. Association after Association, Regiment after Regiment, Band after Band.

The parade lasts from 0800 to after lunch and does not stop (even for the occasion Vet who has a heart attack - they just march around as he is worked on)!

The ANZAC spirit is alive and well in Australia, and will survive future generations, through active participation, and education, as 'what is ANZAC' is even taught in elementry schools.

Cheers,

Wes

Wow, power-edited for heaps of spelling errors


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## LF(CMO)

"Quite touching and shows a great deal of national pride and thanks for our freedom."

It's great that this issue has been raised as it serves to illustrate very clearly the difference between an Australian and a Canadian!  As far as the so called CC is concerned, the local President of the Airborne Asso was assured by the RCMP that this is not an issue with them.  (Particuliarly since one of their Rtd NCO's wears his grandfather's (on his Red Serge) on Nov 11). 

 I intend to wear my Dad's (pt Sgt. Inf WW II) again on Remembrance Day at some point when I feel the calling.  It's really only an issue between me and him.


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## Alex

After reading this topic, I can see both sides of the debate. I can definitely see Wesley's point of view.  Displaying family members medals once a year is an excellent way to honour them, as well as let others view what they have done.

On the other hand, I don't think I could wear the medals of my grandfathers or great grandfathers, simply because I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing them without earning them, especially in the case of one of my great grandfathers who was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal at Passchendaele during the Great War.  What he did to earn that medal was so remarkable that I think I would feel more comfortable honouring him by donating it to a museum, if they wanted it, rather than wearing it (if i choose to join the military). 

-Alex


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## 1feral1

A few more words....

Its a personal decision for everyone to wear them or not. However we can leave it a personal thing. The message is clear. "I am wearing thse medals on this special day, on the RIGHT side of my chest to remember/honour my relative". No other purpose! The wearing them on the RH side signals this message.

However get caught wearing them on the left (say a 50+ yr old Aussie man wearing Viet Nam service medals) and not have earned them again is another story. Sadly there is posers here who do this on occasion. Call them fakers, posers or whatever. I call them pathetic.

Besides with the CC, criminal intent has too be proven, and I don't think anyone out ther would be found guilty, as there is no criminal intent of remembering a relative on a special day. I don't even think one would be charged, and if he was, they should go right to the media!

Get caught posing, thats another story. We all can agree to that. Impersonation is one thing, but honouring and remembering is another. Completely different like chalk and cheese.

I respect everone's opinion on this, again because its a personal thing. We each have rights, and can express them as required, but its when one's beliefs dictates things ( because they don't agree), and smothers my freedom, thats what begins to get under my skin.

Authorise the wear on teh right on 11 Nov, at the discretion of the family. If one does not want to wear them, thats fine.

Cold beers,

Wes


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## rmc_wannabe

Inch said:
			
		

> IMO, the only medals you should be wearing are your own. After my grandfather died, I was given his medals, his dog tags, his 436 Sqn crest and a photo of him just prior to shipping off to Burma. Here's what I did with it all, my mom cried when I showed her.
> 
> I had the photo restored, medals court mounted and cleaned, and everything framed as you see here.



Thats beautiful. I wish to do the same thing for my great grandfather's WWI medals. However i have run into a snag. The medals were destroyed in a house fire before i could get them. I know this is a long shot, but does anyone know the properchannels to go through to get replacements?All i have to go with is his rank, SN and unit . Any help would be appreciated


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## Michael OLeary

The Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH) mentions the replacement of lost or stolen medals here:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/faqs_e.asp?category=honawa&FaqID=19#answer
But it appears to only address replacements for living recipients (serving and retired)

This page from Veterans Affairs provides and information contact for First World War medals that may be worth trying:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=collections/cmdp/medals/infomedals



> Medals (WW1, WW2, Korea): Army, Navy, RCAF:
> 
> Veterans Affairs Canada
> Honours & Awards Section
> Room 1411, 66 Slater Street
> Ottawa, Ontario
> K1A 0P4
> Telephone:
> Local:995-5003
> Toll Free:1-877-995-5003
> Fax: 1-613-947-3421



One option you have is to investigate acquiring modern restrikes of his medals for framing purposes. 
_____________________________________________________________

And, to follow-up the orginal thread, here is DHH's FAQ response:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/faqs_e.asp?category=honawa&FaqID=25#answer



> Question - May I wear a relative's medals?
> 
> Answer - Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.


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## rmc_wannabe

thanks i'll give it a shot


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## George Wallace

Further on Replacement medals:  If you require the info on what medals he had (if you don't already know) you can go to the Public Archives of Canada with the information you have and request a list of medals awarded to him.  You may be able to replace them, at some expense, by visiting various Militaria Shows around the country or Coin and Medal Dealers (some are listed in the Yellow Pages).

One of the advertisers on this site is Clive Law of Service Publications and he hosts a Militaria Show twice a year in Ottawa.  There are also large shows in Toronto and other major metropolitan areas.

Gw


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## rmc_wannabe

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Further on Replacement medals:   If you require the info on what medals he had (if you don't already know) you can go to the Public Archives of Canada with the information you have and request a list of medals awarded to him.   You may be able to replace them, at some expense, by visiting various Militaria Shows around the country or Coin and Medal Dealers (some are listed in the Yellow Pages).
> 
> One of the advertisers on this site is Clive Law of Service Publications and he hosts a Militaria Show twice a year in Ottawa.   There are also large shows in Toronto and other major metropolitan areas.
> 
> Gw


 Cool i'll keep that in mind


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## 1feral1

If you have no success with our trustworthy government, find out exactly what ones he had, and if you go to collectors shows and antique shows etc, or certain coin shops etc, you can sometimes find original medals which are unnamed, or really good quality reproduction ones too (suitable for framing). 

Cheers,

Wes


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## Jonny Boy

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> If you have no success with our trustworthy government, find out exactly what ones he had, and if you go to collectors shows and antique shows etc, or certain coin shops etc, you can sometimes find original medals which are unnamed, or really good quality reproduction ones too (suitable for framing).
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes




i know they are out there but it is almost impossible to find ww1 medals unnamed. and if you do find them they will cost a fourtune


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## 1feral1

Actually unnamed medals are worth less than named ones.

Cheers,

Wes


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## armygurl_557

No, I dont think that they Should be able to wear these medals because, you didnt earn those medals so you shouldnt have the pride of wearing them. Its like saying you had cancer just to get some sympathy.


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## Jonny Boy

armygurl_557 said:
			
		

> No, I don't think that they Should be able to wear these medals because, you didn't earn those medals so you shouldn't have the pride of wearing them. Its like saying you had cancer just to get some sympathy.



first of all you should be able to wear them on November 11. and you should always be proud of your families  medals and proud to wear them on remembrance day.

secondly it is nothing like saying you have cancer to get sympathy because i don't think that someone will think that a 45 year old man wearing the medals of his father or grandfather will think they were his. it is impossible for them to be his because they are most likely from the 2 world wars. so the only way it could be the same as claiming to have cancer to get sympathy would be a 82 year old wearing a bunch of medals that never were awarded to him.


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## redleafjumper

Remembrance Day or not, no one should be wearing medals or decorations that they have not earned.  The proper place for such items is  in a display that shows proper respect for the person that earned the awards.  I recognize that the intent of what many have stated, Wes among others, is to show respect for the fallen veteran and maintain that connection, however it is a thin line from that sort of wearing to putting them up when they have not been awarded to you.  I have personally encountered both circumstances and I always advise people of the Canadian Criminal Code in that area (see below).  The Legion has debated this issue at the convention and in my experience it usually comes down to "Who am I to wear my grandfather's medals?"  (Insert appropriate relative).  This law is not new in Canada, as I understand it it dates from the Great War and was put there at the request of the veterans as there were some who sought to receive the recognition that the veterans deserved.  My grandfather's old general service pin from WW1 says on the reverse: "Penalty for misuse $500 dollar fine or six months imprisonment."  Even today there are some who wear medals that they have not been awarded to imply that they have, I caught one violator myself on a Remembrance Day three years ago.  If you want to show your connection with your related veteran, then display their medals in a frame with a picture and other mementos as others have done.  

Wear a poppy, not their medals.  

The criminal code states:

419.  Unlawful use of military uniforms or certificates - Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,
          
         (a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similiar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,

         (b)  wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,

         (c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued and does not belong to him, or

         (d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.


Lest we forget.

<Edited to remove the ellipsis on the Criminal Code sections and include full wording to avoid confusion.>
Redleafjumper


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## 1feral1

Rant on:

IGNORANCE (like the cancer sympathy quote - thats way way out of line) and LACK of EDUCATION seems to be a big problem with this topic. Wearing medals on the LEFT or RIGHT is TWO different issues and has TWO entirely different definitions. Remember that. Thats TWO different issues RIGHT and LEFT. Right for wearing in remberance of a family member, and left for being awarded to you, no one else, but you!

Those who wear them on the LEFT have truly earned them, and anyone wearing such on the left when not awarded them is a fake wannabee poser and should be ashamed of themselves, and if caught wearing them, they should be charged accordingly.

Too bad the 'nosayers' for not only cadets and family members of those who have since passed on, can't see things outside the square.

Its lawful to wear them here on the RIGHT one day a year here (of a relative only). Those who don't want to don't have to ( and I respect this too), but those who wish to HONOUR and REMEMBER the plight of the relatives this way (we are all different and remember in our own private ways, and this should be respected), good on them for doing so. 

These people should not be condemmed for doing so either. If anyone came up to me and shat on me for wearing my Great Uncle's WW1 medals on the right, along my my EARNED ones on the left, they'd get a dressing down they would remember til the day they died. However thats unlikely to happen here, as the Australian culture is a 180 degree difference from Canada in this fashion. 

We are extremely proud of our ANZAC heritage (not that Canadians are not - I reckon we express it differently) and our Military Forces in general. The population supports the wearing on the right overwhelmingly, where as the Canadians see things a little different I guess. even school children are educated about ANZAC and its humble beginnings on the craggy cliffs of Gallipoli 90 years ago this coming 25 April.

Just because of you personally think its wrong does not mean thats right. If you have an opinion not to wear them, good, but don't go passing on your morals and self imposed judgement onto others who think different. 

So, to those who wish to keep their families memories alive wear them with PRIDE on the RIGHT side.

For the misinformed, prejudged narrow minded ignorant and uneducated with this topic out there I suggest before shooting off at the hip over the issue, have a deep think about the entire isssue before you go passing judgement. Like I said, if you don't wanna come to the party with medals on the RIGHT, don't.

HONOURING and IMPERSONATION are two different things. I hope one day after I am long gone one of my relatives will wear my medals (on the right) on ANZAC Day and march in my Corps Association to remember me, and my generation of Sons and Grandsons of ANZAC who have indeed served their country proud.

As for the Criminal Code of Canada, there must be criminal intent, and if the medals are worn on the right, and the circumstances behind it, it would be a cold day in hell if anyone was charged. 

If thats the case I guess every person who even wears any surplus kit of any kind of CF issue stuff is gulity. Not likely to happen, but if someone is dressed up, and impersonated a CF member, thats an other story isn't it. Charge the bastard! Throw the book at him. The same goes with poserS with medals, wound stripes, fake CF certificates and the like.

Hey Redleaf, was the bloke you 'caught' wearing them on the left? If he was he is a fraud and is a disgrace, and good on ya for having a go at him. I would have too. but if he was wearing thim on the right as a token of remberance, and you had a go at him for that, well quite frankly maybe its you who should be ashamed of yourself irregardless of the criminal code and all that other red tap crap. 

Rant off:

EDITED for clarification 

Regards,

Wes


----------



## the 48th regulator

Wesley mate,

Australia has got it bang on!!

As for the other comments, I will only draw from one ( not centering out anyone in particular);



> No, I don't think that they Should be able to wear these medals because, you didn't earn those medals so you shouldn't have the pride of wearing them. Its like saying you had cancer just to get some sympathy.



And we say that the civvies are ignorant.   I think this attitude fuels it.   Lets not be proud of our history, let's hide our medals (ours as in Canadians) and profess that as long as _I _ remember is all that counts....then complain when a civvy has no clue about our history.

Would you think that by wearing them one day of the year, you can show your pride by telling someone a story about the person who earned them.   I think they would remember that over that fact that someone was only showing off or glorifying anything.

Geez, we Canadians just love to beat ourselves up, and then stand there with our transplanted stiff upper lips...


----------



## Jonny Boy

Wes man. wow. i wish all Canadians thought the way you did. i completely agree with you. 

i for one once in a while on remembrance day services by request of several people and my own will wear a Korean war Canadian uniform full with webbing gas mask small pack everything they are ww2 though. i also have some people that ONCE dressed in ww2 uniforms which my dad had collected. one of them had medals which i removed before any one wore the uniform. i did this so that younger and older people could see what the uniforms looked like. the one i wore was unissued and had no rank.

if people have a problem with that than i guess you have a serious problem with Re-enactors. it is pretty much the same thing. they go around showing uniforms of the past.


----------



## redleafjumper

I believe all of us agree that there must be proper respect shown to those who have fallen.  As I see it, we disagree on how that respect is properly demonstrated.  I am not interested in a flame war with anyone over this issue when certainly we all have the intention to show respect how we believe it should be best demonstrated.  Fair enough?

In response to Wes's (and I did expect some aspects of his response) post, I have thought this through carefully.  I have been an active member of my Legion for 21 years and served twice as president.  Nuances of left and right are only of value to those who know the difference.  Wearing on the right is not sufficient to show that they are not your medals.  I well remember one woman pointing out someone wearing a WW2 and Korea set on the right side at a service in Vancouver, and saying to me, "That fellow certainly has a lot of medals for someone so young."  

It might be the norm down under, but it is not the way in Canada.  Incidentally, the person I caught was female and the medal worn was on the left side in form as if had been earned and clearly with that intent.  As I was familiar with the impostor and the medal, I called her on it at once.  She left the room like a bird with her tail feathers on fire, there was no doubt that she knew.  From time to time I have encountered persons who incorrectly wear their relatives medals.  One fellow carries them inside his coat.  When they are displayed on the jacket, I tactfully advise them of the law.  I agree that intent is a big part of this  issue and most of those few who do wear those medals do not intend to pretend that they earned them.   The problem I have, and it is likely less a problem in Australia, is that the perception can be that those medals were earned by the wearer.

By the way, the rest of those omitted criminal code sections on uniforms and the like very much revolve around pretending to be something that one is not.  They are not aimed at re-enactors, but rather at persons fraudulently wearing current issue uniforms.  I can post the rest of those sections if you like, but the use of the ellipsis " ... " indicates words omitted.  I omitted those words as they are not relevant to the topic at hand, that is wearing of medals.  I feel that it is helpful to post the section under discussion so that the reference is clear.

Redleafjumper


----------



## 1feral1

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> I well remember one woman pointing out someone wearing a WW2 and Korea set on the right side at a service in Vancouver, and saying to me, "That fellow certainly has a lot of medals for someone so young."
> 
> It might be the norm down under, but it is not the way in Canada.        The problem I have, and it is likely less a problem in Australia, is that the perception can be that those medals were earned by the wearer.



Your first quote - My answer is simple. Education (through the Legion - add in the Legion magazine for example or local papers, Legion websites etc, Regimental Associations too). It aint that hard. Regulate it, be positive.

Information passed on through the appropiate channels on wearing them on the RIGHT for remberance, just for ONE day a year. 11 Nov. Thats not asking too much is it. That woman was clueless in the first place as the majority of civilians are in the wearing of medals.

Your second   quote - Whats diferent between us and Canada is attitude towards Defence and some minor cultural differences. BCW war medals are medals WW1, WW2, Korea etc.  

Example if I saw anyone under the age of 80 yrs old wearing WW2 medals on the left, that would be suspicious, same goes with a 40yr old wearing Viet Nam service medals. Seeing a 30yr old woman wearing VietNam medals on the right on ANZAC Day, well thats obvious. So I don't buy your second quote for a second. Sorry, thats pretty limp.

You won't support such a lawful decision in the first place, so your opinion is biased at the get go. I do respect that however, and thats just how you think, and thats fair.

I think its sad that the government will not come   'on line' with this, but I do beleive with enough public pressure that things can change. There was a time not too long ago it was the same here, but in the light of our vets dying off, the act was changed to preserve their service by commorating them through the wearing on their medals on the right on ANZAC Day, and there is NOT one thing wrong with that.

For those that want an ammendment, please contact your local MP and get as many as you can to do the same. Use Australia as a base example.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## the 48th regulator

We worry about misinterpretation, and people posing as something they are not, so therefore hide the medals of Fathers, uncles, grandfathers, at home.   

Hmmm what a great way to honor those who earned them.   Once Again, thank you Wes.....You are convincing me to move to Australia with every post (not too mention the warm weather, but not at those housing prices....)

redleafjumper;

So you just let the woman leave eh?   Why did you not stop her an ask for to stay.   You seem to assume that she wanted to be a war vet?   You know discussion, as I said in my previous post, encourages the civvy, and military minded people to get to know our History.   Don't we bash our nation for being so ignorant??   

tess

That's it for me I don't want to get fired up today...


----------



## redleafjumper

48th Regulator, without going into the specific details, the person was known to me, she was trying to pretend to be something she wasn't, and when confronted she fled.  Appropriate action was taken, and to my knowledge the posing hasn't been repeated.    

While sympathetic to the intent of Wes's points, I am still unconvinced by the arguments presented for wearing the medals of others.  Like I said earlier, wear a poppy, not their medals.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

I agree with redleafjumper.  However, when we opened a permanent exhibit at our regimental museum devoted to the Japanese-Canadians who served in our unit in the First World War, at least one descendant was present - in a suit and tie - wearing his predecessor's MM and service ribbons on the right side.  At the time, I thought it appropriate, if not a little odd.  I had heard of the practice, but never seen it done.

If we did revive such a practice in Canada, there should be the proviso that not only would it only be done on Rememberance Day (as Wes points out), but also only in civilian clothes.  I don't think uniformed personnel (or even those in the "uniform" of the Royal Canadian Legion, consisiting of headdress and blazer) should be permitted to do this.  I would include cadets, policemen, fireman and any others in an official uniform in such a ban, lest they be mistaken for their own medals.


----------



## 1feral1

In due process over time I believe the Canadian governemt will change its presidence in this matter. Should the decision be made for 'civilian clothes only' as CPL Doresh suggests, fair enough, as thats the first step in the right direction, and we can call that comprimise. 

As for Redleaf, he won't budge period, and thats his opinion although I disagree 100%. I find his refusing to see things through a little different completly unrefreshing and very sad.

As I stated in the previous post, those who feel strongly about an ammendement should send in writing to their MP and maybe Vets Affairs, Legion Command HQ, and for those who are members of Associations to their presidents, etc.

Meanwhile in Australia, relatives will continue to honour their Dads, Grandfathers, Brothers, Sons and Uncles (and the female equivilant) in this fine tradition of honour and remberance (without hinderance or harassment with their medals, poppies, and springs of Rosemary on the RIGHT) for ANZAC Days to come. 

Not everyone has to do this, its optional, and many don't but at least othesr can if they want too. Thats called freedom and respect. The ANZAC tradition has indeed been passed to the next generation of Australians with complete success.

Again write your MPs.


Cheers,

Wes


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## the 48th regulator

redleafjumper,

Right on good on ya, I hope you sorted her out then.   Use the red poppy to remember...ok will do..

MD,

Only in civvies, as long as they have their Right foot up in the air, 6 inches from the ground.   Left foot must be encased in a red and white sock, where upon the right arm wrapped in a time observing device made in Canada, but not stamped as such....Head bearing cover only material approved of by set group appointed by the government and members of the "War museum for life" club...

dang it folks....it's about remembering not posing, I hope my grand kids pins my gongs on his/her chest one day!!   At least they will know who earned them and for what country....

oh well.   Wes save a seat at the legion in Sydney...oh ya yer moving...well give me the direction to the new place...

tess


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## rmc_wannabe

I've heard of some people that just wear the undress ribbons, or failing that, just wearing the medals under their tunic. Is this not also a possible solution, because a) the medals are not shown to the public, thus tailing off any public misconception
                                
                                 b)the person wearing them still has the memory of the person that serves.

                                 c)the person wearing the medals is not liable to face charges for wearing decorations not earned


The only problem with this is that the medals are not on display thus allowing others to learn about the medas. What do you think about this


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## bossdog

As far as I know, and I'm not certain about the cadets, you can wear immediate family medals on the right side of your tunic for rememberance day parades only.


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## redleafjumper

Kings Town Jimmy, 
You really should have a look at the earlier posts as they make it clear that in Canada it is not legal to wear anyone else's medals, ribbons or other awards at anytime.  Not on the right on Remembrance Day nor anywhere else at anytime.  See the Canadian Criminal Code section referred to earlier, please.


----------



## gunner56

I have my dad's medals(WWII War Medal,CVSM w/Overseas Bar).I'm very proud of his service(RCAF).However,I didn't earn 'em,I won't wear 'em.


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## Leviathan

Wes, thank-you for saying so clearly what I only wish I could voice so well.
Our opinions on this matter are matched to an amazingly close degree. 
There is little that I can add except my complete support for Wes' viewpoint... 

It should be a matter of personal choice AND respect.
Not self-glorification and attention.
As long is it is clear that you are honouring ANOTHER's sacrifice, I see no problem.

It would also be a good idea to know how the medal was earned, but not necessarily a requirement.
Merely knowing that the Medal is a recognition of the inner-character of the person you are honouring.
This requires a definition of what the medal represents:
After all, A true medal is awarded for the character and nobleness that the individual possesses/possessed, not for the physical act. 
The Physical act is merely a demonstration of the element of character for which the medal was awarded.
A Medal does not say *"Once upon a time, I was brave/valorous/courageous.â ?*
A Medal says *â Å“I AM brave/valorous/courageousâ ?*
A winner of the Victoria Cross, for example, does not earn it for storming a trench or rescuing a comrade under fire.
It is recognition of the Valour which is inherent in the individual at all times.

As for the law itself:
IMHO, this law is akin to the many other laws that exist of an obsolete and seldom enforced nature.
For example, the ones that say it is illegal to whistle in an elevator in some obscure town, or to ride an ostrich down main street, etc., etc.

The unfortunate thing is that a change to the Canadian Criminal Code requires literally an act of Congress (Well, Parliament anyways... )
And we all know the cost-efficiency that such a procedure entails... *sigh*

It seems likely to me that this law will be among the countless other obsolete and senseless laws until public pressure justifies the expenditure of the necessary resources to affect an official change.

Until then, I will rest assured that those who HONESTLY choose to HONOR the memory of relatives in this way will likely go unchallenged (By Law or Otherwise.).

And any challenges that do come will be from those who are too ignorant to respect the personal choices of those who wish to honour their heritage and ancestry in a way that seems fit to them.


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## 1feral1

Write your MP, Vets Affairs, Legion, and any Associations, and use Australia as an example. Also there may be other BCW countries doing the same as us.

Hope this helps you out.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Jonny Boy

i know writing your MP is a good idea, but i am not sure if it woiuold do any good. remember what political party in power right now. the Liberals, they do not do anything to help in remembering our vets or helping with the military. (not that i want to turn this into a anti liberal board)


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## the 48th regulator

ah man not that bilge again.

yep hutch yer right lets not send this thread on another well trodden tangent.

I am sure it'll cost no more than a few minutes of time and a psotage stamp.

I am writing one now, and following up with an e-mail

tess


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## Amos

was wondering if there is anything in writing on this subject....QR&Os or something?   I wore them one Remembrance Day on my right side, as my dad would have worn them on his left, and nobody said anything to me....I wear them to show my pride for my father.   They are the miniature version.  I'm also ex-military, don't know if that makes a difference.


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## Remius

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/10_05/10_05_cfpn_1111_wearing-medals_e.asp


Says it all.  Don't break the law.


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## aesop081

We went through a lengthy discussion about this with a member of this site who fancied herself a barrack room lawyer.  It wasnt pretty.  Do a search and you will see.  The law is rather clear on the subject.  

You can't wear them......The above link is all you need to know


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## Haggis

If the link above proves to be insufficient dissuasion, try: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/280915.html#Section-419

If I saw you wearing medals you were not entitled to, I would turn you in in a heartbeat!


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## geo

Get a picture of your Gramps & have the medals framed beside them.
Place them in a place of honour & remember!


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## ZipperHead

There is a Remembrance Day package making it's rounds, with all kinds of facts, policies, etc. Very good reading, and it spells out that you are NOT allowed to wear somebody else's medals. Period. It does give a handy recommendation, though: it says that it is perfectly acceptable to place those medals in your inside breast pocket, so that they are close to your heart. That should cover the sentimentality issue.

Al


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## geo

Allan
+1


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## Amos

Thanks guys for the info and words of advice...didn't know I was breaking the law      I've been out of the military for over 16 years now...I won't be wearing them again...promise!   :cheers:


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## niner domestic

I order a small wreath with my family's name on it and lay it after the official wreaths are laid when they invite "all others".  But Amos, by going to the service and remembering your dad and his stories is what the day is all about.  He knows what medals he recieved, you are his living legacy, make him proud and hold onto the beliefs he fought for. That's all he ever asked of you.  (and us for that matter).


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## 3rd Horseman

Amos,

   Here's an idea, go to your local Legion and ask them to put out a table for now passed vets so you can lay out his medals with a photo and a little bio of him. Each remembrance day you could encourage more family members to do this. I think it would be very fitting for you to honour him in this way. You get to display his medals to all on remembrance day and you don't have to wear them to achieve this. Good luck.


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## Fishbone Jones

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Amos,
> 
> Here's an idea, go to your local Legion and ask them to put out a table for now passed vets so you can lay out his medals with a photo and a little bio of him. Each remembrance day you could encourage more family members to do this. I think it would be very fitting for you to honour him in this way. You get to display his medals to all on remembrance day and you don't have to wear them to achieve this. Good luck.



Very excellent idea.


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## Amos

Third Horseman....thanks for the great suggestion!   :-*  You have given me an idea for something else also.... to bring my dad's picture and his miniatures and display them at our table with us where we sit and have a beer!   After the service, we will tour the SNCOs mess, the ANAF club and then the Legion...just like old times!    I love it!   Take Care.


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## Amos

niner domestic said:
			
		

> *I order a small wreath with my family's name on it * and lay it after the official wreaths are laid when they invite "all others".  But Amos, by going to the service and remembering your dad and his stories is what the day is all about.  He knows what medals he recieved, you are his living legacy, make him proud and hold onto the beliefs he fought for. That's all he ever asked of you.  (and us for that matter).


Thank-you Niner Domestic  :-*  Going to the service and remembering will always be the least that I will do... I've always enjoyed doing more for him in life and in death...like I said before, I'm just so proud of him.  One year or maybe many, I will lay a wreath for my dad.


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## 1feral1

Amos said:
			
		

> Thanks guys for the info and words of advice...didn't know I was breaking the law      I've been out of the military for over 16 years now...I won't be wearing them again...promise!   :cheers:



Back in Australia you can, but on the right side, not over your heart. Personally I am for this, as its juswt how it is in Australia, and wearing them on the right indicates you are wearing them in honour of a relative. Wearnin them on the left and not have them awarded to you also is against the law. Only on ANZAC Day, Long Tan Day, and 11 Nov a relative can wear them, and again on the right side, NOT the left. No other time is authorised, so I am told anyways. 

Maybe one day, Canada will change its mind, so the legacy of our fallen can be remembered in this manner.


Cheers from Bagdad,


Wes


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## Colin Parkinson

I see lots of Vets wearing medals on the right side that belonged to their dad and their medals on the left. Personally I think the wearing of the miniatures on the right on Nov 11th is a great idea as it shows a bond with what your family did, also shows the link between generations when you see a guy with his dad's medals and his.


----------



## 211RadOp

Colin P said:
			
		

> I see lots of Vets wearing medals on the right side that belonged to their dad and their medals on the left. Personally I think the wearing of the miniatures on the right on Nov 11th is a great idea as it shows a bond with what your family did, also shows the link between generations when you see a guy with his dad's medals and his.



I think the medals you see them wearing on the right are their Legion service medals.


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## Colin Parkinson

Well I have had conversations with a number of them who told which medals were which, normally a series of campaign medals with a few bravery awards. I doubt many of them know the law or care.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

Well, you know, I'm on the side of the law here.

Much has been made of the desire to wear relatives' medals on the _right_ side, reserving the _left_ side for medals personally earned.  Apparently, this is done in Australia and some other places.

However, most of the public have no idea which side means which.  All they see is a "veteran" festooned with medals - it isn't immediately apparent to an outsider that the medals on the right haven't been earned.

A case in point:  last year D9er pointed out a "veteran" weighed down with medals on the right side, but with nothing whatsoever on the left.  Of course, the medals on the right were Legion service gongs, with nothing to do with military service - but the impression created was one of a highly decorated former service member.

Medals should be worn by those who have earned them - it creates too much confusion otherwise.  If you've inherited a set, there are more appropriate ways to display your pride in your relative's service than by wearing them yourself.


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## FormerHorseGuard

my only concern with the display table idea is that some one might borrow them and never return them.
as for wearing them, that is a no no. 
i am getting a shadow box done for my family medals and displaying them on the wall.
no flags just the medals and the name of the owner


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## vonGarvin

Colin P said:
			
		

> I see lots of Vets wearing medals on the right side that belonged to their dad and their medals on the left. Personally I think the wearing of the miniatures on the right on Nov 11th is a great idea as it shows a bond with what your family did, also shows the link between generations when you see a guy with his dad's medals and his.


Those are probably the legion medals you see them wearing on the right side.
As for miniatures: I don't know if they are covered in the Criminal Code.


----------



## probum non poenitet

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Those are probably the legion medals you see them wearing on the right side.
> As for miniatures: I don't know if they are covered in the Criminal Code.



I think a takedown of someone wearing illegal medals on a Legion Blazer would make for one hell of an episode of _Cops_.  
It would have to include a chase through a trailer park and someone with no shirt yelling at the camera. Throw in a Taser-ing and I'm buying the DVD.


----------



## geo

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Those are probably the legion medals you see them wearing on the right side.
> As for miniatures: I don't know if they are covered in the Criminal Code.



full sized or miniatures............. same thing..... same regulations.


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## Aerobicrunner

Military medals span generations
SOURCETAG  08121638110666 
PUBLICATION:  The Ottawa Sun 
DATE:  2008.12.16 
EDITION:  Final 
SECTION:  Editorial/Opinion 
PAGE:  15 
BYLINE:  PETER WORTHINGTON 
WORD COUNT:  536 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Military medals span generations

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1855 the Duke of Newcastle, then Britain's Secretary for War, suggested "a new (military) decoration open to all ranks." 

He felt it was neither "right nor politic" that heroic deeds should go unrewarded, and noted: "The value attached by soldiers to a little piece of ribbon is such as to render any danger insignificant and any privation light if it can be attained." Thus was born the Victoria Cross. 

Canada came late to the medals game. Until relatively recently we mostly awarded British medals, but all that has changed. Canada now issues over 100 different medals, most of them service rather than gallantry awards. 

Our newest is the Sacrifice Medal, awarded to those killed or wounded in action in Afghanistan (but not for accidental deaths). Nor do those killed or wounded in pre-2001 peacekeeping missions qualify -- though DND is expected to review this eligibility. 

Some veterans, such as Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations (56 organizations) points out that in past wars a gold wound stripe on the uniform sleeve was all the soldier got. Those killed got nothing. 

The question of medals can be divisive -- especially the proposal that soldiers in Afghanistan who serve "outside the wire" should get a medal different from those who serve in (relative) safety. 

DECEASED VETERANS 

Another issue is what should happen to the medals of a deceased veteran? I received a message the other day from Marilyn Lincoln of Kitchener, wondering if it was illegal to wear her late father's Second World War medals at ceremonies such as Remembrance Day. 

She wanted to honour her dad; he was proud of his wartime service. 

She consulted Dave Davidson, past-president of the Korean Veterans Association (KVA). Dave told her that in Britain, Australia, New Zealand a close relative of a deceased soldier could wear the medals on the right chest, but in Canada only those who earned the medals had the right to wear them. 

This is true, but it's also dumb and dogmatic. 

Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) is adamant: "Medals may only be worn by the veteran. It is a criminal offence to wear military medals that someone else has earned." 

"I would never break the law," Ms. Lincoln says, but feels it honours both country and soldiers if a relative wears medals on the right chest. She has written the Royal Canadian Legion and seeks input how veterans feel about relatives wearing their medals on commemorative occasions. 

"My father left his medals in my care and made it very clear he wanted to be remembered as a soldier, even though he was a fire captain for 30 years with the Toronto Fire Department.," says Ms. Lincoln. "My dad would be very, very proud if this tradition (of wearing medals on the right chest) were passed on from generation to generation." 

Davidson is inclined to agree, but VAC and DND are silent. 

WEAR THEM 

My advice to the indomitable Ms. Lincoln is to go ahead and wear her father's Second World War medals on her right chest next Remembrance Day. It's inconceivable that anyone would object. If they did -- what a story for the media! 

It's not widely realized that Canada has become a prolific distributor of medals. Excluding the First World War, the Second World War and Korea, Canada now authorizes well over 100 campaign and other medals. With a year or two of service, a soldier can be entitled to a chest full of medals; many Second World War vets, after six years of war, had only five campaign medals. 

Canada should immediately approve close relatives wearing a deceased veteran's medals on the right chest at appropriate occasions. To do otherwise dishonours those who served.


----------



## geo

FWIW, I think that wearing em on the right, on Remembrance day, is the way to go....


----------



## Michael OLeary

New Zealand Defence Force guidelines:

http://medals.nzdf.mil.nz/info/wearingmedals.html#family



> *Wearing of Medals by Family Members*
> 
> Next-of-kin and other relatives of deceased servicemen and women have recently been authorised to wear their relative's medals on specific occasions and under certain circumstances. This applies to both military and civilian next-of-kin and other relatives of former New Zealand services personnel. Medals must be worn on the right breast rather than the left to differentiate between former servicemen and women and next-of-kin or other relatives. The wearing of a relative's medals is a matter of personal discretion and limited to days of remembrance. Only service medals and decorations mounted on a medal bar (full-size or miniature) can be worn by a relative; neck badges, sashes, sash badges, or breast stars cannot be worn. The occasions on which wearing of relatives medals is permitted are confined to ANZAC Day (25 April) and Remembrance Day (11 November). In addition, it may be appropriate for next-of-kin and other relatives to wear relative's medals on an occasion where either the relative's service or the unit in which they served is being commemorated.




Australian guidelines:

http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/honours/awards/wearing.cfm



> *Awards made to next-of-kin*
> 
> A custom has evolved for people to wear the awards of deceased family members when marching in their place at commemorative events such as Anzac Day and Remembrance Day. The Returned and Services League (RSL) encourages people to wear their forebears medals on the right breast, which indicates the awards are not their own


----------



## dapaterson

Not a DND / VAC isue.  A Criminal Code of Canada issue.  Talk to Stockwell Day.


----------



## davidk

There's a thread beating this topic to death - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25589.0.html

Also, I'm trying to figure out how someone can earn "a full chest of medals" after a year or two - assuming he or she finishes BMQ, goes on to complete trade training, gets posted to a unit, does pre-deployment training and goes on tour, all within two years, the most you could be awarded would be (though I may have forgotten some) would include some medals that I don't think have been handed out together considering the nature of the tour:

Sacrifice medal
MMV/other valour decoration
Peacekeeping medal
UN tour/NATO tour medal

(Not trying to start a flame war by insinuating anything about peacekeeping missions)


----------



## Michael OLeary

HighlandIslander said:
			
		

> Also, I'm trying to figure out how someone can earn "a full chest of medals" after a year or two -




Not earn - _"can be entitled to"_ - sematics perhaps, but very different.  He's saying that that soldier could earn any one (or perhaps a few of) a large number of operational, UN or other medals, etc., but certainly not all of them together.


----------



## mainerjohnthomas

It was the hope of my Grandfather (Grenadier Guards WWII), that my father (UN service  Belgian Congo) would finally march in the parade for Remembrance Day when I was in the service.  The hope was that we could have all three generations of living servicemen marching together.  My father was left quite bitter about the way Canada treated those who fought when we were supposedly at peace, and had never marched in the parade, although never failing to attend.

My Grandfather contracted pneumonia, and succumbed to a heart attack before I spent my first November 11 back on this coast where we could march together.  If it had been permitted, I would have liked to have at least worn his medals (off side), so that when my father marched in the parade with me, all three generations of Mainer servicemen would have been in the parade, by token if not in fact.

Now that I am safely retired, whichever of my daughters assists me in laying the Heathen Freehold wreath at the cenotaph does so with my grandfathers medals pinned on her Girl Guide sash.  It is clear that she wears them to honour my grandfather, and all of those like him who are not there to answer the calling of the role.


----------



## TCBF

mainerjohnthomas said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Now that I am safely retired, whichever of my daughters assists me in laying the Heathen Freehold wreath at the cenotaph does so with my grandfathers medals pinned on her Girl Guide sash.  It is clear that she wears them to honour my grandfather, and all of those like him who are not there to answer the calling of the role.



- In Canadian context, by law and tradition, decorations are worn ONLY by the persons to which they were awarded.  No other.  No right chest, shoulder backs or bums.  There are good and sound reasons for this.  

- I would, if in an official capacity to do so, frog-march ANYONE away from a cenotaph on Nov 11 if I knew them to be wearing medals they were not awarded.  I wold also lay a complaint under the Revised Statutes of Canada, whether in an official capacity or not.  Want to see medals on your daughter's chest? Send her off to the local CFRC, we can use more good people.


----------



## Harley Sailor

I for one wear my father's metals on my CF uniform all year round.  The day I recieved my CD he gave me his and I had it mounted instead of mine.  It is with great pride that I wear his metals.  It also helps that I have earned some of the same ones he did.  When my daughter gets her's I hope she will mount mine.


----------



## aussiechangover

personally for me wearing of ancestors medals for remembrance day should be allowed. as pointed out by Wes if you wear them in the correct position on the right to show respect for a deceased family member there shouldn't`t be a problem. on the other hand, wear them on the left when they are not yours then you should be able to be prosecuted by the law. the only reason i believe this is because of coming from Australia and marching in parades with the young kids who are wearing the medals of their family. it can be quite a humbling experience especially when they are carrying a picture and they are more than happy to tell you about them from a kids point of view.


----------



## geo

... Remember, it also motivates the young 'uns to learn about what they 'da or 'pa did in the war... helps develop their understanding of what war is all about.

I look at all the new legionaires who have a chestful of medals on their right side & see no reason why anyone would give someone grief for wearing family heirlooms on Rememberance day

IMHO!


----------



## TCBF

geo said:
			
		

> ... Remember, it also motivates the young 'uns to learn about what they 'da or 'pa did in the war... helps develop their understanding of what war is all about.
> 
> I look at all the new legionaires who have a chestful of medals on their right side & see no reason why anyone would give someone grief for wearing family heirlooms on Rememberance day
> 
> IMHO!



- The right side medals are Legion medals, not military medals.  This has caused a lot of confusion over the years.  

- The Criminal Code was written by members of the generations of Canadians that lost 100,000 dead.  They know who should wear medals and who should not.

- Let's find another way to inculcate Remembrance in our youth, and if they want to wear medals, they can earn their own. 

- I can see me arguing it now with some nitwit in the future: "My son wears his great-grandfather's medals to remind our family that we will never again serve.  Never Again! Haven't we sacrificed enough?"  - "No" I would reply, "You haven't. Get his ass into a uniform, where it belongs."


----------



## Michael OLeary

TCBF said:
			
		

> - The right side medals are Legion medals, not military medals.  This has caused a lot of confusion over the years.



Yup, and the Legion hasn't done anything to ensure the public knows the difference.  Yet they will take legal action against someone who uses the poppy emblem.  How's that for a balanced approach to preserving the meaning of the emblems of service and sacrifice,



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> - The Criminal Code was written by members of the generations of Canadians that lost 100,000 dead.  They no who should where medals and who should not.



But that doesn't mean that laws can't change.  There's no reason why limited permissions to wear an ancestor's medals can't be allowed while reinforcing the illegality of wearing unearned medals to deceive others.



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> - Let's find another way to inculcate Remembrance in our youth, and if they want to wear medals, thay can earn their own.



Any suggestions?




			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> - I can see me arguing it now with some nitwit in the future: "My son wears his great-grandfather's medals to remind our family that we will never again serve.  Never Again! Haven't we sacrificed enough?"  - "No" I would reply, "You haven't. Get his *** into a uniform, where it belongs."



Hmmmm, wasn't the original purpose of Remembrance Day to remember the sacrifices of the Great War in the hope that it would never be repeated?

And didn't that sacrifice made in defence of a democratic ideal also stand for the individual's right to choose whether or not they serve.  Let's leave the conscription debate for a different thread.


----------



## gwp

It is amazing that this topic keeps coming up.

In Great Britain -- the practice of wearing a deceased relatives medals is accepted  (not legislated)
In NZ and Aus -- the practice of wearing a deceased relatives medals is encouraged (by legislation) on Remembrance Day specifically
In Canada -- the practice of wearing a deceased relatives medals contravenes the Criminal Code

The matter was discussed thoroughly and quite recently when the House of Commons debated a private members bill in support of the practice.  The bill was defeated.  Amongst the loudest critics of the practice are veterans and veteran organizations.  

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?pub=bill&doc=C-300&parl=37&ses=1&language=E&File=16

Search Criminal Code in this link to read some of the more recent debate -- pro and con

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=2332221&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=36&Ses=2

For Canada, the discussion is done.   Mount the medals in a shadow box as a tribute to the relative.


----------



## Michael OLeary

gwp said:
			
		

> The discussion is done.



Gee, thanks.  Would you like to declare any other topics "done" so we can just lock the threads now?


----------



## Edward Campbell

I think the _custom_ began in the UK _circa_ 1920 when the widows and children of those *killed in action* took to wearing their medals on Remembrance Sunday.

I’m pretty sure this issue was raised here in Canada in the 1950s with the same intent – widows/children of those *killed in action* could wear their medals once per year - and I believe the idea was soundly rejected by the widows.

But ideas hang around and change a bit. Now we have people wanting to wear Uncle Fred’s medals because … well, just because.

I guess I have a dog in this fight – I have my father’s medals tucked away somewhere, and my sons will, likely put my few away in some drawer a few years from now – even as the elder wears his own. I side with those widows, way back when, but it is a personal thing, not a matter of principle. If someone changes the law I will not be terribly disappointed – even though I will wonder if the person wearing the medals has any remote idea about what they might signify.

I agree, in principle, with TCBF, as I discover I do on so many issues, but Michael O’Leary is correct: times change and so do customs; we can all live with change even if we don’t like it very much.

Finally, time passes, wounds heal; the awful sharp pains of burying a son, losing a beloved husband fifty years too soon or missing a father one never got to know all change to dull, steady aches; time acts as a balm. Remembrance is never easy and it is intensely personal. On 11 November only a small, select few “remember” – most of the rest just, maybe, think a bit about what they have and how and with whose lives it was bought.

Medals don’t really matter much – not even the good ones – except to help us remember a live lived and, too often, a sacrifice made. You can look at them, touch them, think about what experiences they might represent but, unless they were presented to you, you cannot live through them.


----------



## 1feral1

One day Canada will catch up to the rest of us. Wearing medals from one's NOK on the RIGHT is  legal, recognised, and an excellent way of rememberance in Australia. A custom and tradition in ANZAC which is carried on to this day by young and old, closing the gap in generations of all Vets/families of Vets from all conflicts. It brings us all together sucessfully every ANZAC Day and 11 Nov. It helps keep that ANZAC spirit alive in every single Australian, and I am proud to be part of this tradition.

I think the current Canadian laws are outdated and harsh.

It works here, so it can work there, with proper education and publicity.

Just my opinion of course.

OWDU


----------



## TCBF

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I think the _custom_ began in the UK _circa_ 1920 when the widows and children of those *killed in action* took to wearing their medals on Remembrance Sunday.
> 
> I’m pretty sure this issue was raised here in Canada in the 1950s with the same intent – widows/children of those *killed in action* could wear their medals once per year - and I believe the idea was soundly rejected by the widows.
> 
> But ideas hang around and change a bit. Now we have people wanting to wear Uncle Fred’s medals because … well, just because.
> 
> I guess I have a dog in this fight – I have my father’s medals tucked away somewhere, and my sons will, likely put my few away in some drawer a few years from now – even as the elder wears his own. I side with those widows, way back when, but it is a personal thing, not a matter of principle. If someone changes the law I will not be terribly disappointed – even though I will wonder if the person wearing the medals has any remote idea about what they might signify.
> 
> I agree, in principle, with TCBF, as I discover I do on so many issues, but Michael O’Leary is correct: times change and so do customs; we can all live with change even if we don’t like it very much.
> 
> Finally, time passes, wounds heal; the awful sharp pains of burying a son, losing a beloved husband fifty years too soon or missing a father one never got to know all change to dull, steady aches; time acts as a balm. Remembrance is never easy and it is intensely personal. On 11 November only a small, select few “remember” – most of the rest just, maybe, think a bit about what they have and how and with whose lives it was bought.
> 
> Medals don’t really matter much – not even the good ones – except to help us remember a live lived and, too often, a sacrifice made. You can look at them, touch them, think about what experiences they might represent but, unless they were presented to you, you cannot live through them.





			
				Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> ... Just my opinion of course.
> OWDU



- The two of you have now got me re-assessing my stand on this.  One of the great things about this site.


----------



## geo

Heh, as stated..... IMHO


----------



## axeman

Well thats just great ..  Some A$$ hat whos never served a day but joined the legion  says i cant do something..  After 20 Yrs service i can say S##w you Unless your rack is bigger then mine of NON Legion medals  .. As a member of the legion ive been fighting this crap for years .. Ancestors of mine fought in numerous armies in various countries on both sides of the Boer War , WW1 and 2 . another friend dad went to Stalingrad and back in the Wehrmacht. He was a fairly out spoken person  when it came to joining the army.But after i joined he had a long talk with me . If my friend wants to wear his dads medals  i say let him His dad paid in full for them . On Remebrance Day  we gather to remeber the fallen on all sides and pay our repects to them . In wearing them we remember them ...


----------



## mainerjohnthomas

TCBF said:
			
		

> - In Canadian context, by law and tradition, decorations are worn ONLY by the persons to which they were awarded.  No other.  No right chest, shoulder backs or bums.  There are good and sound reasons for this.
> 
> - I would, if in an official capacity to do so, frog-march ANYONE away from a cenotaph on Nov 11 if I knew them to be wearing medals they were not awarded.  I wold also lay a complaint under the Revised Statutes of Canada, whether in an official capacity or not.  Want to see medals on your daughter's chest? Send her off to the local CFRC, we can use more good people.



My daughters may be able to outshoot some recruits, but as none are out of elementary school, CFRC Sinclair can wait a few years before getting its fourth generation in service.


----------



## YYC Retired

Having attended countless ANZAC Day and Remembrance Day services as a kid and as a soldier in Australian Army, I was very pleased to see the legacy of those who sacrificed so much for that great country remembered and honoured by their children and grand-children…..

The practice is, IMHO, a fantastic one. The number of kids wearing medals on their cubs, scouts, brownies uniform or plain clothes ,was increasing each year prior to my leaving. My mates and I were all very pleased to see this, It meant to us that the younger generation were developing an interest in Australia’s proud military history and I’m sure most who read these forums would agree, that’s a good thing.

Really, If they want to wear them….. where’s the harm???


----------



## Michael OLeary

YYC Retired said:
			
		

> Really, If they want to wear them….. where’s the harm???



And how many more medal groups will then remain with families for generations because their importance is better understood?


----------



## 1feral1

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> And how many more medal groups will then remain with families for generations because their importance is better understood?



Good point Mick. All the more reason for someone to keep them in the family.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## axeman

TCBF said:
			
		

> - In Canadian context, by law and tradition, decorations are worn ONLY by the persons to which they were awarded.  No other.  No right chest, shoulder backs or bums.  There are good and sound reasons for this.
> 
> AND what are they as a legionare  after may months waiting for a reply there are none othere then a standard of display. which we have pretty much agread apon for ansestors right hand side  yours on the left.
> 
> - I would, if in an official capacity to do so, frog-march ANYONE away from a cenotaph on Nov 11 if I knew them to be wearing medals they were not awarded.  I wold also lay a complaint under the Revised Statutes of Canada, whether in an official capacity or not.  Want to see medals on your daughter's chest? Send her off to the local CFRC, we can use more good people.



TCBF .... ROTS O RUCK . on the frog marching my friend  by birth is a dual citizen, so unless you can provide him with german police ID I'm pretty sure he'd sort you out on it [ hes not in the CF you see] . As to trying to frog march a few of my friends  who not only have THEIR  medals and their  relatives  would have no worries as to telling where you could put your bayonet.  Remberance Day is the day the ancestors medals should be brought out and displayed .  I think the only persons who could get your views  enforced  on my circle of friends are persons like General  Hiilier ret or  General Lesilie [sp]. I do not mean to be overly aggresive  but  think of what the day means , not just to you but others .


----------



## childs56

TCBF 
I would love to see you do that to the Widow, Father, Mother, Daughter or son of a member who recently Died in Afganistan. Who were wearing them on the right hand side as a sign of Rememberance for their lost one. 
We could see who would be made a donkey of themselves and then frog marched off from the Cenotaph. 

The laws original intention was to discourage those who otherwise did not earn the Medals from claimimg them as their own. As with current times some have passed unearned Medals off as their own, yet no one has been charged with a crime. 
Make it clear and advertize that the wearing of Medals on the right hand side is a reflection of your familys past. This will help encourage younger people to learn about what sacfices were made so we could live in our
country.


----------



## 1feral1

TCBF said:
			
		

> - The two of you have now got me re-assessing my stand on this.  One of the great things about this site.



TCBF is only expressing his opinion, and as much as I don't agree with him (for NOK wearing on the right), what we have said has impacted on this thoughts. I beleive what we do here makes sense, and helps the public understand by directly being involved by the public display of NOK medals. 

I guess you would perhaps have to see this in action here on 25 Apr especially, as thats our day, but its not a sombre day like 11 Nov is in Canada, here ANZAC Day is about celebrating mateship, victory, remembering our fallen, and then there is some type of undescribeable invisible spirit, plus other things. Its also about the birth of a nation and the ANZAC spirit which was born of the craggy shores of Gallipoli almost 100 yrs ago. 

Australia has what I would call a 180 degree different look towards their Defence Force (and their military history as a whole) as Canada has. I cannot discribe it. On ANZAC Day I have never seen more national pride expressed puiblically in my life, and in one day, I seen more of this than my entire life in Canada.

For any Canadian who has been in Australia on 25 Apr, you would agree to this.

If anyone wears medals on the left that are not earned, I stand behind his train of thought. There are laws here too which makes this an offence.

OWDU


----------



## Doug VT

I've had to deal with this on a number of occasions.  Both personally, and for others.  

When I was younger, I received all of my Maternal Grandfathers medals, they were kept in an old box in the attic, still in their original little white boxes with a little piece of ribbon accompanying them.  I had them mounted and I still have them now.  

When I was in my first year in the reserves, I had heard that you could wear them on the right side for Remembrance Day.  I researched this fully, and of course came to the conclusion that this was false.

Of course I was disappointed at the time, but I've long gotten over it.  I would hazard a guess that most of the people felt done wrong by this just want to wear them cause it's "cool" and are just trying to convince themselves that they have a more noble reason.  I know, I've seen it and been there myself.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just ask yourself what the real reason for wanting to wear them is.
I personally do not agree with anyone wearing a medal they didn't earn themselves.  That being said, I would never ask or comment on a widow or close family member wearing their deceased soldiers medals.

I used to want a bunch of medals, but as I grew older, and I would like to think wiser, I don't really care anymore.  Medals don't really mean anything anymore, if anything, I only receive them to pass them on to my children.  They jazz up the uniform, that's all.  Maybe for those with big heads, a measure of bragging rights maybe?  

People are always worried about medals, there are much more important things to worry about.  When I was on my first tour in Afghanistan, there was a great discussion on the "new" campaign star and how the PSP were getting the same medal.  They were all upset because ours should be better somehow, to denote the fact that we were soldiers.  The whole discussion was ridiculous, it's not a competition.  Anyway, sorry about going off on a bit of a rant there.

Either way, I agree with the present laws.  Not because I think it should be illegal, but it is fundamentally wrong to do.

The Australians practice in a way that they can only wear relatives medals on specific occasions.  If that's what they want to do, who am I to judge?  They have specifically stated when, where, and who can practice this.

I especially agree with Mr Campbell's closing statement about only the person whom earned it knows really what it's worth.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Doug said:
			
		

> When I was in my first year in the reserves, I had heard that you could wear them on the right side for Remembrance Day.  I researched this fully, and of course came to the conclusion that this was false.
> 
> Of course I was disappointed at the time, but I've long gotten over it.  I would hazard a guess that most of the people felt done wrong by this just want to wear them cause it's "cool" and are just trying to convince themselves that they have a more noble reason.  I know, I've seen it and been there myself.
> I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just ask yourself what the real reason for wanting to wear them is.
> I personally do not agree with anyone wearing a medal they didn't earn themselves.  That being said, I would never ask or comment on a widow or close family member wearing their deceased soldiers medals.



I've quoted the above passage not to focus on his words specifically for debate, but to highlight the fact that we all have different images of who might be choosing to wear their ancestor's medals, and why.

Doug mentions the possibility of doing so as a young soldier, reflects upon the "wearing of medals one hasn't earned" and then moves on to discuss widows and close family members.  I think the perception of some one "wearing of medals one hasn't earned" is tripping up this discussion, it is that image which brings us back to the idea of deception, and detracts from focusing on whether or not this can be done in an honourable fashion.

To me, examples of situations that make this a reasonable option for future change would be these:

 - a young person wearing a (great) grandfather's First or Second War medals, and the family using this opportunity to teach that youth about the family's role in their country's history and the importance of Remembrance Day ceremonies; thus making the act of remembrance personal in a way that also brings a minor but participatory role to the otherwise casual observer of a ceremony

- or the wife or child of a recent casualty, perhaps one still seeking to emphasize their connections with that soldier and his sacrifice

We will never completely avoid those who would take any change and use it in abuse of custom or fashion.  But the value that might be gained from a twelve-year-old girl proudly wearing her grand-father's medals to honour and remember him should not be overshadowed by the image of some dope hanging three generations of medals all over his jacket just because he can.  Regardless, bringing these medals into a public light, even only once per year, could help to refocus Remembrance Day on the fallen, rather than on the living veteran in its increasingly liberal definition.


----------



## geo

> here ANZAC Day is about celebrating mateship, victory, remembering our fallen, and then there is some type of undescribeable invisible spirit, plus other things. Its also about the birth of a nation and the ANZAC spirit which was born of the craggy shores of Gallipoli almost 100 yrs ago.



It's not like we don't have VIMY to celebrate - where the Canadian corp fought together for the 1st time AND where Canada came together as a nation.


----------



## Doug VT

I have to agree with Mike.  Of course there are purely noble reasons out there to see this through.  Unfortunately, there are far too many less then noble intentions out there.

Does this have any harmful effect on anyone?  Really?  I don't think so.  It all really comes down to individuals perception. 

Some want to wear them because they are so very proud and want to display them in an honourable fashion in the appropriate venue.

Some want to wear them purely because they can, and it makes them stand out.  These people will invariably push the limits and add more then the permitted accoutrement's.  Thus, as described by Mike, "some dope hanging three generations of medals all over his jacket"

Some who have had nothing "passed down" will no doubt be somewhat opposed to the practice, because others will have more flash then them, or it makes them feel inferior....on the one day a year that they wear their DEU.

Military accoutrement's have always been a touchy subject, always some controversy associated with a little bit of metal.

Reminds me of one piece of metal which met it's demise....the "Warrior" badge.  How long did it last?  3 years? All because of hurt feelings and unit manipulated standards criteria.


----------



## TCBF

Doug said:
			
		

> ...on the one day a year that they wear their DEU. ...



- Remember when CUA was needed because we actually wore our CFs/DEUs out? DEU was Dress of the Day.  FSOD/Cbt Clo was for the field only.  After they realized that we were going through our stocks of expensive Cbt Clo at a rapid rate, Work Dress was invented.  Cheaper than both Combats and CFs.

- Point being, we saw the ribbon bars on our peers on an almost daily basis.  One's eyes automatically took in Rank/Face/Regt/Ribbons at first encounter.  There were still many Korea and a few WW2 ribbons around back then.  I think we were raised in a system where that status was constant.

- I find the ANZAC solution an interesting one, particularly regarding it's role in encouraging education and the retention of medals by families.

- My previous 'frogmarch' comments now appear to me to be inappropriate.

- Anyone know what the American policy is?


----------



## reccecrewman

A general concensus among Canadian service personnel and would be it is not on to wear medals you yourself did not earn. I wouldn't wear either of my Grandfather's racks, nor would I want to even if Canadian law permitted me to do so....... I didn't earn them. Nor would I care to see my medals on any of my children or grandchildren.... hanging up in a shadowbox in my son's home after I die is where they belong. My .02 anyhow


----------



## Michael OLeary

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> A general concensus among Canadian service personnel and would be it is not on to wear medals you yourself did not earn. I wouldn't wear either of my Grandfather's racks, nor would I want to even if Canadian law permitted me to do so....... I didn't earn them. Nor would I care to see my medals on any of my children or grandchildren.... hanging up in a shadowbox in my son's home after I die is where they belong. My .02 anyhow



For the moment, let's set aside the issue of wearing ancestor's medals on uniforms. Even if the Canadian Government authorized the wear of "ancestor's medals" on civilian dress for Remembrance Day, wearing them on uniforms is a separate CF dress issue.

Also, I think the point here is that you wouldn't see them worn by your own child or grandchild.  If you're around to see that, you'd be wearing them yourself.


----------



## 1feral1

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> For the moment, let's set aside the issue of wearing ancestor's medals on uniforms. Even if the Canadian Government authorized the wear of "ancestor's medals" on civilian dress for Remembrance Day, wearing them on uniforms is a separate CF dress issue.
> 
> Also, I think the point here is that you wouldn't see them worn by your own child or grandchild.  If you're around to see that, you'd be wearing them yourself.



Even in uniform wearing of NOK medals is authorised, again on the right. There is a military cultural difference of 110% here, and although we all have opinions, army.ca members which disagree in our policy can't seem to see the forrest thru the trees, and seem to be stuck in the rut of 'only wear 'em if they are yours' attitude. Thats fine for medals worn on the left. I hope one day someone will wear my rack on ANZAC Day.

Australia is not the only Common-Wealth country doing this, so putting your personal feelings/emotions aside, PLEASE start thinking with your brains, not your hearts.

If you had a chance to see this in operation, and its results, then maybe you would change your mind. Think outside of the circle.

WRT education, ask any 12 yr old here what is ANZAC and what is Gallipoli, and they'll tell you, ask any 12 yr old in Canada what is Vimy Ridge, and most, if not 95% (or more) will have not a clue. Personally I think that is very sad. Again ask a kid here what is the Kakoda Track (WWII), and again most know, as again any kid in Canada about Dieppe, and few know. Again ask a local kid what is Long Tang (Viet Nam),  and again many know, ask a kid in Canada what is Kapyong, and most again don't have a clue. 

If people in Canada took an interest in their relatives medals, maybe things would be different, and things like this would not end up in garage sales or the garbage. Don't let your country's sacrifices go unnoticed or be forgotten because of such stubornness. Medals here worn on the RIGHT are displayed with such pride, and the public know what the true meaning of this is, and to see the general public coming together at certain times of the year, simply increases the bond, keeps the ANZAC spirit alive, their Dads and grandad's spirit alive, and again builds the tradition of our Veterans, so our Sons of ANZAC will never die as long as thei memory is carried on from one generation to another. Its healthy for everyone and for the right reasons.

It frustrates me so much to see such negativeity coming from what appears to be narrow minds. Again think with your brains, not with your hearts.

Again, just a humble opinion from an Aussie Vet, and someone who did his time in the CF. I have seen the results of how things are done here in Australia  over the past 14 yrs, and it works with nothing but positive results.

OWDU


----------



## davidk

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> For the moment, let's set aside the issue of wearing ancestor's medals on uniforms. Even if the Canadian Government authorized the wear of "ancestor's medals" on civilian dress for Remembrance Day, wearing them on uniforms is a separate CF dress issue.



After following the debate for a while, I'll cautiously wade in.

One suggestion made a while ago (before the threads were amalgamated) was that if someone wants to wear the medals to commemorate someone that served, that they be worn on the inside of the jacket. Personally, I think this is a particularly fitting tribute - they are worn without being visible (so no legal issue) and they can be kept 'close to the heart' as a testament to the original owner's importance.

That being said, I'm opposed to wearing someone else's medals while in uniform, no matter what side they're on. It's a (chargeable?) offense to wear a medal (or any other uniform distinction) that hasn't been earned. Even if it were permitted, though, and I were allowed to show up to Remembrance Day with my hypothetical grandfather's hypothetical rack of medals from WWII, I'd be against it. I see it as an affront to currently serving members - no matter whose medals they were, I'd be wearing them, and, not having been deployed (yet), would be biting my thumb at those around me who have risked life and limb.


----------



## Blackadder1916

In this discussion mention has been made several times to the differing legality in other commonwealth countries concerning the wearing of an ancestor's medals.  Perhaps a review of these other countries laws would be useful since some of the contentions made in previous posts may not be entirely correct.  Also keep in mind that while law, regulation, custom or accepted practice may somehow seem in conflict they can (and do) permit and exclude a practice at the same time in complete harmony.  Legislation restricting the wearing of decorations was not necessarily a response to any widespread abuse after the Great War; such offences were detailed (and worded similarly) in legislation back into the 19th century.  Of the four commonwealth countries so far discussed in this thread (Canada, Australia, New Zealand and United Kingdom) all have similar legislation that restricts the wearing of military decorations and medals to only those who have earned them; only one country (Australia) has any modifier (that I was able to find) that "by letter of the law" permits the wear of an ancestor's medals.  Wes, however, has given ample proof that this is widely accepted and practised even in uniform.

It should be noted that public remembrance ceremonies became more common and families were more likely to have fallen loved ones following 11 November 1918.  Similar to current events (though on much reduced scale now) the losses due to war reverberated not just in individual families but the country as a whole.  It was probably that feeling of loss (maybe mixed with pride) that moved many to display the medals of their departed loved ones (despite the contemporary existence of legislation that restricted the wear of medals).  It has been mentioned that there were overt actions on the part of veterans groups (et al) in the years following the previous wars to restrict this practice in Canada.  However, it seems just from anecdotal evidence that some did wear the decorations and medals of family members even if contrary to the letter of law.  

In doing this little bit of research I've come to the conclusion that the inclusion of Article 419 into the Canadian Criminal Code (vice another act as in the other countries) was perhaps a typical Canadian response as we maintain a reasonably precise consolidation of offences relating to civilians in contrast to the UK legal structure which has offences scattered all over the place.

Though I would not suggest the wearing of ancestral war decorations in uniform (that is directly contrary to both the letter and intent of several CF regulations) if a person (in civilian attire) were to wear display on their clothing a deceased (immediate) family member's war decorations clearly as a tribute to the service of that loved one it should not (in my non-legal opinion) be contrary to the intent of Article 419 of the Canadian Criminal Code.  It could (probably would) become an accepted practice, in time could become the custom; when it is the custom, a law is not necessarily required.

Canada

Criminal Code  Link to article 419


> Unlawful use of military uniforms or certificates
> 
> 419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,
> (a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,
> (b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,
> (c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or
> (d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,
> is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
> R.S., c. C-34, s. 377.



Of note is the response on DH&R's FAQs as the reason why this practice is forbidden in Canada.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhr-ddhr/eng/faqs_e.asp#Q9


> Question
> May I wear a relative's medals?
> Answer
> Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.



United Kingdom

Army Act 1955 (c. 18) Link


> Part V General Provisions
> Offences relating to military matters punishable by civil courts
> 
> 197.  Unauthorised use of and dealing in decorations, etc.
> — (1) *Any person who, in the United Kingdom or in any colony,—
> (a) without authority uses or wears any military decoration, or any badge, wound stripe or emblem supplied or authorised by [F1 the Defence Council], * or
> (b) uses or wears any decoration, badge, wound stripe, or emblem so nearly resembling any military decoration, or any such badge, stripe or emblem as aforesaid, as to be calculated to deceive, or
> (c) falsely represents himself to be a person who is or has been entitled to use or wear any suchdecoration, badge, stripe or emblem as is mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection,
> *shall be guilty of an offence against this section*:
> Provided that nothing in this subsection shall prohibit the use or wearing of ordinary regimental badges or of brooches or ornaments representing them.
> (2) Any person who purchases or takes in pawn any naval, military or air-force decoration awarded to any member of Her Majesty’s military forces, or solicits or procures any person to sell or pledge any such decoration, or acts for any person in the sale or pledging thereof, shall be guilty of an offence against this section unless he proves that at the time of the alleged offence the person to whom the decoration was awarded was dead or had ceased to be a member of those forces.
> (3) Any person guilty of an offence against this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a finenot exceeding [F2 level 3 on the standard scale] or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to both such a fine and such imprisonment.



I have found no other UK act or regulation that specifically modifies this law and permits the wear of a deceased family member’s decorations as an act of remembrance but perhaps there is common sense in the world after all as would be suggested by this reply posted on  ARmy Rumour SErvice

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/p=251526.html#251526


> As I type this reply, I proudly have my late grandfathers medals to hand. I am serving member and have some info that I hope you can use. I contacted th e MoD when my grand poppy passed away to find out the history behind the medals - when he was awarded, what for, dates etc and the info I got back was fantastic, all his postings, and a full history of his service history from 1933 to 1953.
> 
> *As for wearing of the medals the wording and regulations from the MoD Medal Office is as follows:
> 
> "There are no regulations which govern the wearing of medals awarded to persons who are deceased. Although it is not formally authorised, it has become an acceptable practice for Next of Kin or Legal Beneficiary (when in civilian dress) to wear deceased persons insignia as a mark of rememberance on suitable occasions if they so desire. (The most notable is Remeberance Sunday Parades and Services). When so doing, the medals are worn on the right hand breast in civilian dress only. The custom of wearing other persons' medals in this manner does not offend either the Army Act 1955 section 197 or the emotional tribute to which such wearing is intended". *



Australia

DEFENCE ACT 1903 Link


> 80B Improper use of service decorations
> 
> *(1) A person is guilty of an offence if:
> (a) the person wears a service decoration; and
> (b) the person is not the person on whom the decoration was conferred.*
> Penalty: 30 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both.
> (2) *Where the person upon whom a service decoration was conferred has died, it is not an offence against subsection (1) for a member of the family of that person to wear the service decoration if the member of the family does not represent himself as being the person upon whom the decoration was conferred.*
> Note: The defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2). See subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code.
> (3) It is not an offence against subsection (1) for a person to wear a service decoration in the course of a dramatic or other visual representation (including such a representation to be televised) or in the making of a cinematograph film.
> Note: The defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (3). See subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code.
> (4) A person shall not falsely represent himself as being the person upon whom a service decoration has been conferred.
> Penalty: 30 penalty units or imprisonment for 6 months, or both.
> (5) A person shall not deface or destroy, by melting or otherwise, a service decoration.
> Penalty: 60 penalty units or imprisonment for 12 months, or both.



*New Zealand*

Military Decorations and Distinctive Badges Act 1918 Link


> Offences in respect of military decorations
> 
>  (1) In this section the term military decoration means any medal, clasp, badge, ribbon, stripe, emblem, or decoration issued, supplied, or authorised, or purporting or reputed to be issued, supplied, or authorised, by a naval, military, or air force authority, whether in New Zealand or in any other Commonwealth country; but does not include an ordinary regimental badge or any brooch or ornament representing such a badge.
> (2)* Every person commits an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $500—
>  (a) Who represents himself, contrary to the fact, to be a person who is or has been entitled to wear or use any military decoration;* or
>  (b) Who wears or uses any medal, clasp, badge, ribbon, stripe, emblem, or decoration that is intended or is likely, by reason of its appearance or in any other manner, to cause any person to believe, contrary to the fact, that it is a military decoration; or
>  (c) Who, without reasonable excuse, supplies or offers to supply—
>  (i) Any military decoration; or
>  (ii) Any medal, clasp, badge, ribbon, stripe, emblem, or decoration that is intended or is likely, by reason of its appearance or in any other manner, to cause any person to believe, contrary to the fact, that it is a military decoration—
> to any person who is not authorised to wear or use that military decoration.
> (3) In a prosecution under this section, the burden of proving that any person is authorised to wear or use any military decoration shall be on the defendant.
> This section was inserted by section 46(1) of the Summary Offences Act 1981.



But then New Zealand also (IMO) differentiates between the letter of the law and its intent when recognizing custom.

Wearing of Decorations and Medals by Next of Kin or Family Members
http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/honours/overview/wearing-insignia.html


> *The insignia of any order, decoration or medal, including miniatures, lapel badges and ribbons, may only be worn by the person to whom they were awarded.
> 
> There is a convention or custom that is widely understood that the next of kin and other relatives may wear, on the right side only, on ANZAC and similar days of remembrance, the service medals of deceased military personnel. The convention is a matter of personal discretion, is limited to days of remembrance and applies only to service medals and decorations mounted on a medal bar (full-size or miniature) and not neck badges, sashes and badges, or breast stars*.


----------



## Oil Can

It is a criminal offense to wear military medals that someone else has earned.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/youth/sub.cfm?source=Help/generalfaq


----------



## aesop081

Oil Can said:
			
		

> It is a criminal offense to wear military medals that someone else has earned.
> 
> http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/youth/sub.cfm?source=Help/generalfaq



Thank you for posting information already posted in this thread.


----------



## mariomike

It is beneath contempt to wear an order, decoration or medal you did not earn.  
Because some people have no shame, this had to be written into law. 
This law was written at a time when our World War veterans were plentiful. As well as the next of kin of those who went to war and never came back. They are the ones who demanded this be written into law. 
Who are we to say they were wrong?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Well, since this thread has been dredged up once again.

There are countries that allow, under strict guidelines, the wearing of ancestors' medals to honour their memory and service.  This not the same as wearing just anyone's medals.  This is not the same as wearing medals to deceive.

Notably, those stories I can recall from the past few years of people being caught wearing medals to deceive seem to come predominantly from those same countries.  Why, we might ask?  I suggest it's not because they also they allow the wearing of ancestor's medals at specific ceremonies, but rather because the general awareness of medals, their importance, and of who should be wearing them and when is a matter of public knowledge.  They have also learned to ask themselves and others questions about medals, such as "Does he look old enough to have been in Vietnam?", "Could he have won that award?"  And they learn who to ask to confirm such suspicions.

On Remembrance Day in Canada, which is the only time many members of the public see medals being worn at all, we suffer from a public ignorance of medals and their significance.  That is why we see news stories featuring guys with racks of Legion awards, while the guy with a shorter rack headed by an MM passes quietly in the background.

I have no problems with the rules as they stand, but I do not see a well-regulated change, with appropriate educational approaches, being a bad option either.  What a great opportunity it would be for VAC and the Legion, among other agencies, to promote the awareness and understanding of medals and all they stand for in addition to the Poppy Campaign.


----------



## 1feral1

mariomike said:
			
		

> It is beneath contempt to wear a medal you did not earn.
> Because some people have no shame, this had to be written into law.



Well, I have lots of shame, and I wear my Great uncle's (KIA Passchendaele 06 Nov 1917) WW1 two medals on my right, and my own on my left, and I will be doing this again on ANZAC Day.

I would suggest you read the entire thread before you post.

OWDU


----------



## mariomike

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> I wear my Great uncle's (KIA Passchendaele 06 Nov 1917) WW1 two medals on my right,
> OWDU



If that is what they had wanted, Canadian veterans and next of kin would have had the law written to say it is ok to wear orders, decorations and medals you did not earn on the right.
That is not what they wanted. Out of respect for them, what they wanted was written into the Criminal Code of Canada.


----------



## riggermade

I would rather see them worn by some relative who respects what they stood for than have somebody sell them to make a profit...and who really knows what vets wanted...ther are alot of laws out there that people don't want or make sense


----------



## Michael OLeary

riggermade said:
			
		

> I would rather see them worn by some relative who respects what they stood for than have somebody sell them to make a profit...



On the other hand, I'd rather see them sold by an uncaring relative to a collector who will preserve their memory, than the possible alternative action if that relative felt they had no value whatever.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

or if the family doesn't want them, have them donated to the regiment that the vet belonged to or is perpetuated by it.

I know in the case of my units first CO, we have placed his medals and forage cap in a display case under his picture.

EDITED TO ADD

First time I had ever seen a CD with 3 bars was in his medals rack.


----------



## geo

mariomike said:
			
		

> It is beneath contempt to wear an order, decoration or medal you did not earn.
> Because some people have no shame, this had to be written into law.
> This law was written at a time when our World War veterans were plentiful. As well as the next of kin of those who went to war and never came back. They are the ones who demanded this be written into law. Who are we to say they were wrong?



How the hell do you know what the vererans "demanded" ?
Our politicians are funny people & for the most part.... have never seen the business end of a rifle pointed at them.... xcept if they have gone on a photo-op junket to the Balkans or to Kabul/Kandahar.  Do you think they have been pressured by members of the Legion - I can tell you that there are a lot of "legionaires" who never served a day.

Wearing a family member's military decorations, under controlled conditions on Remembrance day & / or possibly some other specific occasion, would be the ultimate compliment paid to their service to this great nation.  If medals are worn on the right side - there is no attempt to deceive - there is no impersonation.  I would contend that you have not bothered reading this thread before wading into this discussion.


----------



## aesop081

geo said:
			
		

> I would contend that you have not bothered reading this thread before wading into this discussion.



Reading the thread means you have to agree that it should be allowed to wear them on the right side on certain occasions ?

I've read it in its entirety and i disagree.


----------



## geo

CDN Aviatior.... I didn't say that.  The way he came out & blurted out his opinion suggests that he did not read what has already been said.  He is entitled to his opinion and so are we all.

We agree to dissagree.


----------



## PanaEng

It is indeed illegal to wear medals you have not earned.
But we got to clarify the terminology: you wear medals on your left. If you have them on your right, you are displaying them.

Some typical Canadian comments on this thread: you can be proud of anything but not display it, God forbid someone may think that you are too patriotic or glorifying war....

We should be more like the Aussies and Americans and not be ashamed of displaying our patriotism or be proud of the sacrifices of our ancestors. Our Cub/Scouts that had medals from relatives veterans were encouraged to *display*  them for Remembrance day on their right side and several showed up with them. Many of the old guys at the Pearley Veterans Hospital were pretty moved about that.

Thanks OWDU and others for your info.

cheers,
Frank


----------



## mariomike

geo said:
			
		

> How the hell do you know what the vererans "demanded" ?



How the hell do I know?
Because it has been that way for as long as Canada has had "vererans".


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> How the hell do I know?
> Because it has been that way for as long as Canada has had "vererans".



Interestingly, most of the posters in this thread qualify for that label by one definition or another.  Doesn't than mean that we can discuss the possibility of change with as much entitlement to our opinion as they once had?  Can't we discuss what such a change might mean and how it could help to further education and understanding of those very veterans' achievements?  Or do the past decisions of dead veterans deny us the right to even have this discussion?


----------



## mariomike

PanaEng said:
			
		

> "you wear medals on your left. If you have them on your right, you are displaying them."



Where does it offer that loophole in the Criminal Code of Canada? 


> "We should be more like the Aussies and Americans and not be ashamed of displaying our patriotism or be proud of the sacrifices of our ancestors."



I am thankful to be a Canadian, imperfect as we may be compared to those other great nations.
I wear my own medals - on the left side - when I march with my Department in the Remembrance Day parade every year at Toronto Old City Hall. If I am off duty.  
I have inherited four sets of  ( Canadian World War ) medals. I don't wear them. I am just their guardian. 



> "Our Cub/Scouts that had medals from relatives veterans"



Good for them. Cubs are children. They can wear all the medals they want.

Thanks for letting me participate in your discussion, and have a great day!


MOD EDIT: fixed the quote box


----------



## geo

mariomike said:
			
		

> How the hell do I know?
> Because it has been that way for as long as Canada has had "vererans".


Soo.... with 35+ years of service (and counting)... I guess I fall under that catgory too ?


----------



## IntlBr

My grandfather was a Captain (A/Major I believe) in the BCDs, so I'm not concerned.. but what if your ancestor fought for the .. ahem.. "losing" side of either war?  What if Grandpa was a Major in the SS?  We had an awful lot of former Axis people immigrate into Canada following the war.  I'm willing to wager they had children, who had children, who will have children.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Corps of Guides said:
			
		

> My grandfather was a Captain (A/Major I believe) in the BCDs, so I'm not concerned.. but what if your ancestor fought for the .. ahem.. "losing" side of either war?  What if Grandpa was a Major in the SS?  We had an awful lot of former Axis people immigrate into Canada following the war.  I'm willing to wager they had children, who had children, who will have children.



I would suggest that only someone in that position could answer that question.  Do we refuse to let the descendants of German servicemen attend Remembrance Day ceremonies if they choose to do so as Canadians?

What if it was a Wehrmacht soldier on compulsory service, and neither a member of an SS unit or a Nazi by political affiliation?  Would that be different?

You have offered a red herring argument that does not affect the central question being debated.


----------



## geo

From a personal perspective, if they are in Germany on Remembrance day and wish to pull out their dad of granddad's decorations AND the German government has no problem with it... I have no problem with it.... 

My granddad served in the militia leading up to 1914.  He served through the 1st war & brought back the 22e Bn CEF from Europe.  Throughout WW2 - he served in Ottawa for the 6 years of war - before going back to his civy career....  My dad was a Troop commander with the Three River tanks - served Canada as best he could and returned to his civy career after 6 years of war.

I have served my country.... and my son turns 16 next month..... we'll see how that turns out.


----------



## mariomike

geo said:
			
		

> Soo.... with 35+ years of service (and counting)... I guess I fall under that catgory too ?



I wish this wasn't a pissing contest. 
I have 37+ years of service ( and counting ). But, it's with Toronto Emergency Services. So, we will always follow you in the D-Day, Remembrance Day, and Warrior's Day marchpasts. And all the other memorials we attend every year. 
My brief time in the militia was enough to let my wife and me buy into the National Military Cemetery. Perhaps we will be your neighbours for eternity?


----------



## riggermade

I did 25 years and when I pass I will be leaving my medals to my son...if he chooses to wear them in memory of me and what I did in my military career then he should have the right


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> *I wish this wasn't a pissing contes*t.
> I have 37+ years of service ( and counting ). But, it's with Toronto Emergency Services. So, we will always follow you in the D-Day, Remembrance Day, and Warrior's Day marchpasts. And all the other memorials we attend every year.
> My brief time in the militia was enough to let my wife and me buy into the National Military Cemetery. Perhaps we will be your neighbours for eternity?



Well, it had been a discussion except for certain people who refused to even consider the theoretical possibilities of change.  And then you decided to be the self-appointed spokesman for generations of departed veterans.

Other options do work in other countries.  There's nothing that says that it couldn't work here if change was proposed.  I certainly don't expect to see change being immediate, or any time soon.  I rather doubt that anyone is even pursuing this on any official level, so it's really only a consideration of theoretical possibilities, which is certainty not aided by outright denial of the options.  By all means, join the discussion and if you don't agree, then offer reasoned counter-arguments against the wearing of ancestor's medals.


----------



## mariomike

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And then you decided to be the self-appointed spokesman for generations of departed veterans.



I type only for myself. The law was passed, I believe, before I was born. 
Thanks for reading my posts. I'm off to bed. Ontario Family Day is just another day on the job.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> I type only for myself.



Then I must have misunderstood your meaning in this post:



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> If that is what they had wanted, Canadian veterans and next of kin would have had the law written to say it is ok to wear orders, decorations and medals you did not earn on the right.
> That is not what they wanted. Out of respect for them, what they wanted was written into the Criminal Code of Canada.


----------



## Kat Stevens

: While we're at it, let's stop the RCMP, Fire, and EMS services from participating in Remembrance Day at all.  I mean, I'm pretty sure those guys didn't go up Vimy Ridge with "Jeez, thank God the cops are on the job back home"  as their last thought.    Jeez man, this is getting silly   :


----------



## ModlrMike

mariomike said:
			
		

> It is beneath contempt to wear an order, decoration or medal you did not earn.
> Because some people have no shame, this had to be written into law.
> This law was written at a time when our World War veterans were plentiful. As well as the next of kin of those who went to war and never came back. They are the ones who demanded this be written into law.
> Who are we to say they were wrong?



Actually, the law was enacted because of the large numbers of impostors and frauds trying to access benefits following WWI.

As much as I personally disagree with the practise, I don't discourage it. Who am I to tell someone else how to mourn their loss? Who is any one for that matter? As for being beneath contempt... well...


----------



## 1feral1

mariomike said:
			
		

> I wish this wasn't a pissing contest.



No, you are just being NARROW minded.

Plain and simple, you refusing to think outside the circle, and for what its worth I have +33 yrs in two Armies of the British Commonwealth, and I am a Veteran of the campaign in Iraq. The policies put forth by ANZAC are excellent and lead by example in rememberance and honour in the highest form. I guess you have to experience it to see it. Those that have been to ANZAC Days or Long Tan Days, or 11 Nov here in ANZAC can understand the national pride exhibited by our citizens, which  is both unique and inspiring. 

In time, I beleive Canada will join the fold with other Commonwealth countries in this form of rememberance and honour, with the KEY being medals are worn on the right, and only on special occasions as directed. The sacrifices of ANZAC from Gallipoli to Baghdad, and the pride of Digger past will always be remembered.

Sure, we too have our share of shamless imposters, they wear their medals on the left impersonating Veterans for selfish personal reasons and many also play the game of stealing benifits from those of us who have been in harms way. Losers of this calibre will always be around. When caught they are publically named/shamed in the media.

Anyways pal, time to come out of the dark ages, and again think outside the circle and think in the future.

May I suggest you research this topic, and perhaps educate yourself, that is if you really GAF in the first place.

OWDU


----------



## mariomike

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> While we're at it, let's stop the RCMP, Fire, and EMS services from participating in Remembrance Day at all.  I mean, I'm pretty sure those guys didn't go up Vimy Ridge with "Jeez, thank God the cops are on the job back home"  as their last thought.



We always march at the end of parades we are invited to as a mark of respect.  
Our military people, old or young, are always in front, and always will be. 
I've never met anyone on my job who didn't treat our sick and injured veterans with as much love as they would their own mother or father. Or since Afganistan, our own sons and daughters.


----------



## 1feral1

Mario, 

Thanks for not having the COMMON courtesy for not responding to my post. If you want to hide your head in the sand about this important issue, well I guess thats your business. :brickwall:


----------



## mariomike

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Mario,
> 
> Thanks for not having the COMMON courtesy for not responding to my post. If you want to hide your head in the sand about this important issue, well I guess thats your business. :brickwall:



Sorry for not answering sooner, Overwatch. I bent the rules a little bit at work earlier today to keep up. 
Even if they de-criminalised it, which I don't see happening in my lifetime, and even if I wanted to wear someone else's medals, which I don't, I do not have permission from any of the recipients to wear them. I never saw my father wear his father's.
He used to let me wear his, but I was still in short pants.  It never occurred to me to ask as an adult, and it's too late now.  I couldn't ask my Uncle Bill, because they ( the entire 7 man crew ) were shot down by a night fighter and are buried in France.  Nobody even had time to jump. I have personal momentos ( watches and rings ) of them that I can, and do, wear whenever I want.  I really am the keeper of their flames,  I just do it differently than you.
I apologize if I caused offence.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:
			
		

> How the hell do I know?
> Because it has been that way for as long as Canada has had "vererans".



Sorry. Not buying what you're smokin'. Your opinion doesn't equate to speaking for ANYONE but yourself. You have your's, others have their's. It's not for you to say who is right or wrong. You can put forward a case strong enough to change someone's view........or not, but you are far from the final authority on the subject so just simmer down.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## 1feral1

mariomike said:
			
		

> He used to let me wear his, but I was still in short pants.



You are completely missing the point. You are not looking outside the circle.

There is nothing to de-criminalise, its still and will always be an offence to wear them as if you earned them that means on the left, even here. That will never change.

An ammendment has to be made to be worn on the right, this along with the provisons of such an ammendment. I guess you haev not researched this topic, thats bloody obvious.

As for not having permission to wear them, how silly!

Read this: (its from a post on here from 2004)

You know with 11 Nov fast approaching, and with me being in the field for the next 3 wks, I won't be able to be on line unless I sneak into town.

I thought I'd start this thread as a memorial of those we know, or knew. My story is about one man, who's tragic loss affected so many, and who's loss inspired me to join the Militia back in 1976, and I joined up with a Unit, the Regina Rifles, who prepetuated the 28th Battalion of which Robert served and died with.

Who was he? Well he was my Great Uncle. His name was Robert Allen, and was known as Bob to all who knew him. He was born on 05 May 1895 in Marlbank, Ontario, and came out west to Saskatchewan with his family about 1910. They all settled in the Quill Lake district,and began to farm.

Bob had many interests, and had a passsion for fastball, and played on the local team throughout the spring and summers, competing against other towns such as Watson, and Wadena. He was also active socially within the community, and was overall well liked.

On 19th January 1916, he and others travelled about 30km by horse and cutter to nearby Wadena to enlist in the Army, as the local lads felt it was time to do their bit. Bob's Mum was heartbroken and truly reluctant in letting him go, but his Dad was proud that his son was off to do good for King and Empire, but like all parents was genuinely concerned about the fate of his son.

Bob had written to his cousin in Peel, Ontario, who was eager to join too, saying he'd be in before Bob. Both had actually enlisted a day apart. His name was Richard Marlin (775646 PTE, late of the 38th Ottawa Batt'n), who was later to be KIA at Vimy Ridge on 09 Apr 1917.

The local lads signed up with the 214th Batt'n Wadena Wildcats, and soon ended up at Camp Hughs, near where CFB Shilo now is. Bob made it home many times for leave before ending up in England in the spring of 1917, but when home, he charmed the local girls, and left for England a single 20 yr old man, with many of the locals he signed on with. 

He left for the UK from Halifax, never to see his beloved Canada again. Before leaving he gave to his Mum, a few momentos, such as some hatbadges, and a .303 drill rd.

After enduring the boring training in England, 267104 PTE R.F. Allen was TOS'd by the 28th (Saskatchewan) Batt'n in Jul 1917, and ended up in France.

From 'somewhere in the field' Bob wrote many letters home, and sent postcards to many of his friends and family. Over the years, these momentos have been treasured and passed from one generation to the other. Bob was gutted to learn about the death of his close childhood friend and cousin, and mentioned this in a letter home.

Finally, the 28th Batt'n was to be involved in a big show in the Third Battle of Ypres, know as the battle of Passchendaele.The offensive began on Halloween, and the 28th Batt'n after rehursing were finally 'into the line' on the evening of the 5th, and advanced on the fringe of the village of Passchenadele before dawn on the morning of the 6th of Nov 1917.

The morning was cool and wet, but by mid day it was about 13C. Sometime early in the advance Bob was struck down by emeny fire (reports say SW and/or GSW), but either way he was hit badly in both legs and left arm. The septic soil of Belguim farmland had been forced into the wounds.

Bob was concious (I spoke to an old Vet in 1979 who was there with him when he was evac'd) as he layed on the stretcher, covered with mud soak bandages, and with MG08 and wizz bangs going off all around, he kept up his humour, joking about going home, and saying 'you can have your war lads, I am going home'. The enemy fire was fierce, and Bob was finally evac'd out of the line and ended up at No. 3 CCS, near Rouen, where he had both legs and left arm amputated, and was given morphia to settle him.

Bob sadly died of his wounds the next morning, and most likely succomed to an infection from the soil. He was buried near Poperinghe, at the Lijssenthoek Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery, Plot XXII, Grave IIA.

It should be known that Bob's Unit reached their objective before 0900, and HELD it until later releived.

His family soon heard the news, and was lost in grief as one would expect. So taken by the loss of his brother, my Grandfather, Alexander, named his first born son after him, and when my Uncle married, named his first born son after him also. Today Bob is remembered in stone at a memorial in front of the Quill Lake Legion, along with others who fell in both wars.

Bob was just 21 when he died. He never married, and had the chance to grow up, farm and have kids. He along with over 60,000 other Canadians were killed in the First World War, and out of that 60,000 men, over 11,000 have no known grave at all, and still rest where they fell.

Over 60,000 lives lost with over 60,000 individual stories,and grief striken families. Thats one helll of alot of lives and families, given the population of a very young Canada at the time. With losses so high, we cannot even phathom this, as look how we feel as a nation with recent losses of our soldiers in currrent conflicts. One life lost is to many.

Take the time to remember. Take the time to think about what ws going on, not so long ago.

Love your freedom? Thank at Vet, WW2 Vets are in their 80's now, and fought for something most of us take for granted. Its called Freedom. As of yesterday, Australia has only 5 survivors of the First World War.

Lest We Forget!

Yes Mario, I have worn his on the right with mine on the left ( I have 5 gongs for what its worth) at specific occasions, and I am not alone, many thousands in the hordes ANZAC Day goers do the same, all generations from children to the aged.

OWDU


----------



## mariomike

Overwatch, you asked me to think outside the box. 
At the Cenotaph I will think of it the way you explained it.
I agree with the Australian way. Sorry for being so hardheaded.


----------



## 1feral1

mariomike said:
			
		

> Overwatch, you asked me to think outside the box.
> It's important to let people grieve in their own way.
> 
> At the Cenotaph I will think of it the way you explained it.
> I agree with the Australian way. Sorry for being so hardheaded.
> 
> Incidentally, my grandfather was badly wounded at Pachendale in Nov 1917. He was in Number 1 Construction Battalion CEF. I got to know him pretty well in his old age.



I beleive it not about grieving, its about rememberance with honour, and pride of our relitives who are no longer with us. Their acts in wars past, those killed, wounded and the ones that carry the trauma they experienced to this day, or to the end of their days, crossing over as old men, a chance many thousands never got to reach.

I am happy you can see things thru Australian eyes, adn I hope this spreads to Canada. 

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## 1feral1

Interesting photograph, read on....

This is Mrs C.S. Woods, who lost eight (8}, yes eight Sons in the Great War. This photo was taken in 1936 at the unvailing of the Vimy Memorial in France.

Mrs Woods represented the Silver Star Mothers of Canada, and was a part of the grand Vimy Pilgrimage, in which many Canadians and their families returned to the Ridge.

You will notice she is wearing the medals of her Sons, and worn on the RIGHT (not the left), so seems back then there was already some type of protocol. After just 18 yrs after the war's end this was accepted by Canadians the time. No one was complaining then.

Anyways, just a point to ponder.

OWDU


----------



## 1feral1

Can't edit, so I have no idea how the 'cool' icon got in there. Any Mods around to delete the little wanker?

Also the medal she is wearing on the left is the Vimy Pilgrimage Medal and the round button to the left of it is an Vimy Pilgrimage identifier button as to which group/mod she belonged to for that day's events.

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## 1feral1

The book I drew this infor from claims 8 sons (Canadians At War - Jim lotz), but this source claims 5, and it looks like 5 is correct. Crikey, 1 is enough. I cannot fathom such a great loss for one mother alone.

Read the article in its entirety. http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/ceris.htm

Mrs Wood (not Woods from my first source) was presented to the King, wearing the 5 sets of medals that her sons earned.

OWDU


----------



## mariomike

Mrs Wood was reportedly the first recipient of the Memorial Cross. 
http://www.cwgc.org/education/imp_pop/family_can.htm


----------



## PanaEng

Great information there guys.

Chimo!
Frank


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

Just to throw something into the discussion. What if your ancestors fought on the "wrong" side?


----------



## Michael OLeary

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Just to throw something into the discussion. What if your ancestors fought on the "wrong" side?



That's a red herring, and a separate issue.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

fair enough


----------



## the 48th regulator

I thought this to be a brilliant question to ask here, so I split this off and wanted to see a good discussion.

November eleventh, 2009.  You show up to the local Remembrance day memorial.  You recognize a few of the local veterans, some current serving in uniform, and families.

You move forward for a better spot, and you bump into someone wearing medals.  You politely ask where they served, and they respond that the medals are the ones earned by a family member.  This peaks your interest, and you strike up a conversation.  You find out that the medals belonged to her Grandfather, who fought in Italy.   You offer your respects to her and her grandfather.  She states that her Grandad was a paratrooper and served in places such as Ortona, and told stories of how well his unit fought.

After all this you say thank you, but you are curious.  The medals look different from the others that the Vets are wearing.  You turn back and ask about them.  She tells you that her Grandfather served with the German Army, in the German 1st Parachute Division.....

What is the feeling?

dileas

tess


----------



## George Wallace

I wonder how many "hold a grudge" for a lifetime?  What would they say if they saw a Armour Crewman standing in front of his Leopard tank?  Or the service member who has a German, Italian or Japanese wife?  What are their feelings towards touring Germany, Italy and Japan?  At what level do they differentiate?


----------



## Yrys

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I wonder how many "hold a grudge" for a lifetime?



Well, I don't know how many hold such a grudge, but if you think at the cancellation of
the "reconstitution of the Plains of Abraham", some Québécers seem so enraged 
250 years past, that they don't want to remember, when they usually say :
"Je me souviens" !


----------



## George Wallace

Yrys said:
			
		

> .........some Québécers seem so enraged
> 250 years past, that they don't want to remember, when they usually say :
> "Je me souviens" !




 ;D


I always laugh at Quebec Lic plates since they changed to that.  I always think that they forgot the "rien" at the end of the sentence.


----------



## Yrys

Good point   !

I was a bit enraged when some separatists made the cancellation happens.
For me , it is the 'geste' of ignorants people that want to keep others people 
ignorants, and the result ain't a "victory for the nationalists"!


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

My grandfather was in the RCAF during WW2. he flew supply  and other missions  in various areas of operations.
Africa, Burma, India,  and east and west coasts of Canada.
When he died there was a gentleman sitting ast his funeral , older man  witha  strange acent, I had never met him, but turned out he was a former German Airforce pilot, who flew for the other side in Africa. He was a Nazi Officer, card carrying member . He and my  grandfather became friends many  years later. He came to my  grandfather's funeral out of respect for another flier who had past on.  So I guess old grudges do die and new found respect does happen.

I always wondered how hard it would be for the other side to hold  a Memorial Day or Remembrance Service knowing the past losses and the course of history.  I think some honours and respect are lost for the losers  of a  war,  and that  tanishes the memory of the fallen of that  side. Winners are heros, losers are chumps. 
I feel for losers on both sides, The losers are the fallen and they are buried in strange lands far away  from their families, some have no graves, no markers just  a location in the vast  oceans of the world.

My  grandfather was E.J. Sparks , Captain Retired Canadian Forces
RCOC, RCAF, RCNR,. When he died I got his metals, no exciting ones, just the Burma Star, Africa star and clasp,  various UN metals,  CD with clasp, and the I was there metals, I would never consider wearing them, I would never let anyone else wear them. They  now mine,  and going to be put ina  shadow box frame with his service record and picture someday.


----------



## Blackadder1916

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> . . . November eleventh, 2009.  You show up to the local Remembrance day memorial. . . .



The operative word is "Remembrance Day", not celebration of victory over the other guy day.  There have been occasions when former enemies have had joint ceremonies to commemorate their shared hardships and fallen comrades/Kameraden (and the only thing killed were a lot of brain cells . . . ).  It is not unusual to have foreign military attaches (including from our former enemy) be a part of Remembrance Day ceremonies in Ottawa including laying a wreath at the Cenotaph; at one time in years long past it would have been not uncommon for such an attache to have had served on "the other side" and to have worn medals recognizing that service at the ceremony (even though Germans do not hold Nov 11 in the same honoured memory).

But then there is always that elephant in the room; the particularly offensive ideology of the regime in power in that country at that time.  There will always be some who will equate wearing any symbols of service for that period with trying to celebrate that ideology, rather than what (according to your scenario) it most likely is; someone wishing to remember and honour a passed loved one.  That the passed loved one may have been proud of and cherished the memory of his time in battle should make little difference.  Though unusual, there have been instances of former German soldiers attending Remembrance Day services without skulking in the background or trying to hide who/what they were.  They were there for the same reason many former Canadian soldiers were, to publically remember their friends who were no longer there.


----------



## axeman

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> That's a red herring, and a separate issue.



Why is it considered as a red herring and seperate issue ?  We are trying to talk about ancestors medals . My ancestors fought on both sides .  WWII to the Boer War I've got relatives from far and wide. Medals from all of them . mom dad grampa  great grampa greatgreat gramp etc...aunts uncles all are direct blood type relatives. All are important to me .IMHO its all germane to the subject at hand relatives ARE relatives no matter what side the fought on .


----------



## Michael OLeary

axeman said:
			
		

> Why is it considered as a red herring and seperate issue ?  We are trying to talk about ancestors medals . My ancestors fought on both sides .  WWII to the Boer War I've got relatives from far and wide. Medals from all of them . mom dad grampa  great grampa greatgreat gramp etc...aunts uncles all are direct blood type relatives. All are important to me .IMHO its all germane to the subject at hand relatives ARE relatives no matter what side the fought on .



It's a red herring if people focus on the issue of "ancestors from the other side" and declare that they would support the wearing of ancestors' medals "but never if a single German/Japanese/et. al. medal was worn".  It potentially brings into the discussion an extra emotional layer that removes the focus from whether the wearing of medals is a worthwhile act of remembrance (which is separate from the topic of what nation the ancestor belonged to at the time they were awarded).


----------



## Greymatters

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It's a red herring if people focus on the issue of "ancestors from the other side" and declare that they would support the wearing of ancestors' medals "but never if a single German/Japanese/et. al. medal was worn".  It potentially brings into the discussion an extra emotional layer that removes the focus from whether the wearing of medals is a worthwhile act of remembrance (which is separate from the topic of what nation the ancestor belonged to at the time they were awarded).



Hmmm, it actually is a valid point - no one would likely object to the wearing of a German ancestor's medals, but there would be objections to the wearing of any Nazi-related ones.  

I was going to say that I cant imagine anyone being dumb enough to do so, but I think there will always be someone who would...


----------



## geo

I would contend that, if in Germany - the wearing of your ancestor's German medals would be appropriate.  In Japan, it would be appropriate to wear your ancestor's Japanese medals.  In Canada/UK/Australia/New Zeland/et all, it would be appropriate to wear your ancestor's Canadian/Commonwealth medals.


----------



## geo

Graymatters,
If your family got Gassed @ Ypres - those Imperial German medals would be persona non grata, as much as those Nazi era medals & gongs.
If your family member participated in the death march to Bataan - Japanese medals wouldn't be too welcome either.  
However, that being said, Allied air medals worn in Danzig, Hamburg or Dresden probably wouldn't be all that happily received.
IMHO


----------



## Greymatters

Got it...

Thumbs up on wearing of ancestor's medals: 
- On 11 November 
- On right side
- By direct descendants
- Those wearing uniforms representing a service should have permission from appropriate authority 
- Use common sense as to potential offense to local assembly due to originating country of medals


----------



## mariomike

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> She tells you that her Grandfather served with the German Army, in the German 1st Parachute Division.....
> What is the feeling?



I tell her that my Uncle served with the RCAF, in Bomber Command....
He's still in France with his crewmates. 
What would be the feeling if I wore his Aircrew Europe Star in Germany?


----------



## YYC Retired

As has been revealed in other threads, Australia permits the wearing of ancestors medals. 

Now, more specifically on this topic, the same document says it is not permissible to wear foreign medals if the medals are from a country that was considered "the enemy" at the time the medals was awarded..... This only applies to the uniformed services... FYI.


----------



## geo

Well I posted it in the other thread so I might as well make the same comment in this one.

Some people will hold a grudge - no matter what.

I figure that, in Germany, someone with German ancestors could & should be welcome to wear his ancestor's medals on an occasion similar to Rememberance day.  In Japan, someone with Japanese ancestors could & should be welcome to wear his ancestor's medals on an occasion similar to Rememberance day.  In Canada, the UK, Australia & New Zeland (and other Commonwealth countries) descendents of fallen servicemen should be welcome to wear their medals on Remembrance day, on the right side - where there can be no question they are/were his own.

Commonwealth medals in Germany should not be contemplated
German / Nipon medals in Commonwealth countries should not be contemplated.


----------



## Blackadder1916

YYC Retired said:
			
		

> As has been revealed in other threads, Australia permits the wearing of ancestors medals.
> 
> Now, more specifically on this topic, the same document says it is not permissible to wear foreign medals if the medals are from a country that was considered "the enemy" at the time the medals was awarded..... This only applies to the uniformed services... FYI.



And where does it say that?  Perhaps you can provide a reference.


----------



## geo

Heh... even the Soviets were friendly between '41 & '45


----------



## YYC Retired

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And where does it say that?  Perhaps you can provide a reference.



I'm not in the system anymore so I don't have access to the specific documents, I'll contact some of my mates that are still in and see if they can dig up the references.... Maybe Wes can shed some light as well.


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Got it...
> 
> Thumbs up on wearing of ancestor's medals:
> - On 11 November
> - On right side
> - By direct descendants
> - Those wearing uniforms representing a service should have permission from appropriate authority
> - Use common sense as to potential offense to local assembly due to originating country of medals



I was under the impression, according to ref below, that wearing any medals/decorations other than those one has earned is not allowed:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhr-ddhr/eng/faqs_e.asp#Q9

Quote:

"Question

May I wear a relative's medals?
Answer

Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour."

Am I missing something in this discussion or the topic is an inside joke I am not privy to...?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> Am I missing something in this discussion or the topic is an inside joke I am not privy to...?



Perhaps you missed the entire thread this topic was split from:

Wearing an Ancestor's Medals.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25589.0.html


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

OK, seen. Thx. Moot point in Canada I guess.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Soldier1stTradesman2nd said:
			
		

> OK, seen. Thx. Moot point in Canada I guess.



Unauthorized at the present time, but not necessarily moot, it's a worthy topic for debate.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Now I am lost,

Which point is moot?

dileas

tess


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Unauthorized at the present time, but not necessarily moot, it's a worthy topic for debate.



Hence why we have 2 threads going on this topic.


----------



## Michael OLeary

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Now I am lost,
> 
> Which point is moot?
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



He was inferring that because the wearing of ancestors' medals in Canada was unauthorized, that the topic was moot.


----------



## Gronk

Here's a story:
                       I am a member of the branch executive committee for the Whitehorse Legion. One day I received a call from a lady whose father died. She said her dad was a WW2 veteran, and the family would like a military funeral for him. Since we do many military funerals for vets, I said I didn't think it would be a problem, and I would get back to her. I immediately phoned Joe, our Service Officer, to make arrangements. 
    Now I should explain about Joe. He is a WW2 RCAF veteran, our longest serving member, our Service Officer, Past President about 20 times over, and one who's opinion is highly respected in this branch. Joe knows every senior veteran in the Yukon. In short, he is the branch's Elder Statesman.
    When he heard the name of the lady who called, his words were,"Not at this branch!" and "Not while I'm alive!" I was puzzled until he explained that the man in question was a German soldier, and the Legion does not do these funerals. I had to phone the lady back and respectfully decline our participation.


----------



## Teflon

Gronk said:
			
		

> Here's a story:
> I am a member of the branch executive committee for the Whitehorse Legion. One day I received a call from a lady whose father died. She said her dad was a WW2 veteran, and the family would like a military funeral for him. Since we do many military funerals for vets, I said I didn't think it would be a problem, and I would get back to her. I immediately phoned Joe, our Service Officer, to make arrangements.
> Now I should explain about Joe. He is a WW2 RCAF veteran, our longest serving member, our Service Officer, Past President about 20 times over, and one who's opinion is highly respected in this branch. Joe knows every senior veteran in the Yukon. In short, he is the branch's Elder Statesman.
> When he heard the name of the lady who called, his words were,"Not at this branch!" and "Not while I'm alive!" I was puzzled until he explained that the man in question was a German soldier, and the Legion does not do these funerals. I had to phone the lady back and respectfully decline our participation.



(The following is certainly not meant as a poke at Whitehorse Legion Gronk)

Back in my home town Legion we have (maybe had now, not sure) several German ex-soldiers who show up occasionally (usually Remembrance day) (my home town having been a POW camp, several of them having decided to immigrate to Canada and settle there) I never witnessed any hostility from or towards them and they tended to mingle quite abit with the WW2 vets we still had left - Made for some interesting conversations after the memorial services. Although I never saw any of them wear their uniforms or medals around the Legion anyways and I never heard of one of them requesting any funeral services from the branch.

Just a different experience I guess - everyone has their own it seems


----------



## Soldier1stTradesman2nd

Sorry, felt like I was stepping on toes, as in walked in on a conversation half-way. No intent to stop the debate. The wearing/display of or feelings about opposing force medals/honours is very interesting. In my experience emotions are highly charged either way. More so have I come across vets who see other vets from a former enemy nation just as they are, soldiers who were caught in political/ideological struggles. Others have witnessed things that most of us will never likely see and/or understand, thus deep-seated negative feelings yet to this day.


----------



## Servicepub

I'm coming to this thread late and have not ploughed through all ten pages of commentary - so please forgive me if my post is repetitive.
As stated, the Criminal Code makes the wearing of medals illegal when worn by anyone to whom they were not presented. Further, the Royal Canadian Legion, by policy, does not support the wearing of unearned military medals, even by direct descendants. As the national Nov 11 ceremony in Ottawa is organized by the RCL and not by DND or any other branch of the government, then at the very least their policy should be respected there.
I am fully in favour of honouring family members' service to Crown and country but why should this mean wearing unearned medals? If the intent is to show that a family member was decorated then have the medals mounted in a shadow-box and carry the box, proudly, to the service. If the intent is to show that you are a direct descendant of a member of Canada's fighting forces then let's get together and design a pin/brassard/crest that can be worn at these events. 
With all due respect to Australia and the UK, in my opinion our Monarch presented medals to our fathers- not to us. and they should not be worn on either side of the chest.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Servicepub said:
			
		

> Further, the Royal Canadian Legion, by policy, does not support the wearing of unearned military medals, even by direct descendants. As the national Nov 11 ceremony in Ottawa is organized by the RCL and not by DND or any other branch of the government, then at the very least their policy should be respected there.



Welcome to the discussion servicepub, yes the existing rules and regs have been examined in detail.

It is interesting that you bring forward the Legion as a supposed lead player in this.  While they may not support the wearing of ancestors' medals, they certainly do not hesitate to let their members hang multitudes of Legion produced "medal"-like  trinkets on their chests. I have yet to see a Legion-led public information campaign to ensure that members of the public attending Remembrance Day ceremonies are aware of the difference between medals and Legion awards.

The wearing of ancestor's medals, properly supported by an government coordinated information campaign, would not be a dishonourable thing.


----------



## Long in the tooth

The suggestion of a shadow box is an exellent one.  I already have enough medals to wear, my father's WW2 and grandfathers WW1 medals would be a gaudy display indeed!
Fortunately I have three children... that leaves one to carry and display my father-in- law's medals as well.
I think that's the most tasteful way of doing it.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> The suggestion of a shadow box is an exellent one.  I already have enough medals to wear, my father's WW2 and grandfathers WW1 medals would be a gaudy display indeed!
> Fortunately I have three children... that leaves one to carry and display my father-in- law's medals as well.
> I think that's the most tasteful way of doing it.



It's not like anyone has suggested that wearing all of your ancestor's medals would be compulsory if such a change was instituted.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Most RCLs nowdays are also run by a majority of Associate members who have never served a day or earned a military decoration in their life.


........and just my 2 cents, but I'd be proud as punch to have my daughter wear my medals on the right, after I'm gone. As proud as, I'm sure, as she'd be of me.


----------



## 1feral1

Servicepub said:
			
		

> I'm coming to this thread late and have not ploughed through all ten pages of commentary



Well, maybe you should then, that way you can gather some info to ponder rather than demonstrate your narrowmindedness.

People here and elsewhere DO NOT wear unearned medals, that is still a crime here, as earned medals are worn on the left. People know here when worn on the right, its the sign of rememberance. Its not about posing or showing off, or who cas pi$$ the furthest.

If I was you, I would TRY to see things outside the circle, and not let your opinion fog a workable idea of what is nothing but a true act of respect for our Veterans from all conflicts.

OWDU

Iraq Vet


----------



## Danjanou

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It's not like anyone has suggested that wearing all of your ancestor's medals would be compulsory if such a change was instituted.



And look like this






Recceguy been to my Branch have you? 8)


----------



## 1feral1

Danjanou said:
			
		

> And look like this



Judging by the crest on his blazer, and his beret colour, those worn on the left are his 'as earned/awarded', on the left perhaps his father and grandfather or father-inlaw, as there is 4 sets. I don't have issues with this, but personally I would chose one relative and perhaps the following year, another.

EDIT: With Mick's good detective work WRT the commemortives, this guy is the exception to the rule, and may in fact be over the top. I did spot some genuine medals in there. Standing amoung Paras and RMs, one would think he is genuine, but you never know. Truly there is plenty of freaks to go around.

Here in Australia, seeing the SASR Assocation march on 25 Apr, these SASR blazers and tan berets are a common sight, along with service medals worn on both sides by some.  

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Michael OLeary

And it looks like more than a few added commemoratives.

Citadel Awards • The General Service Cross (GSC)
http://www.tasmedals.com.au/citadel_awards/10482.html

MSM AWARDS
The home of the Commemorative medal
http://honours.homestead.com/comindex.html


The possible actions of individual idiots should not be enough to deter the rational debate of the value of the act of remembrance which wearing an ancestor's medals would invoke.


----------



## Danjanou

I thought you'd catch that Michael. I'd also hazard that the beret and balzer crest are  as "authentic" as his paypal bling all three generations of it.

My point in posting this BTW, was that no matter how well intentioned this proposal is, count some idiot screwing it up for everyone.


----------



## Michael OLeary

All the more reason for any initiative which raises public awareness of medals and what they represent.


----------



## Servicepub

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Well, maybe you should then, that way you can gather some info to ponder rather than demonstrate your narrowmindedness.
> 
> People here and elsewhere DO NOT wear unearned medals, that is still a crime here, as earned medals are worn on the left. People know here when worn on the right, its the sign of rememberance. Its not about posing or showing off, or who cas pi$$ the furthest.
> 
> If I was you, I would TRY to see things outside the circle, and not let your opinion fog a workable idea of what is nothing but a true act of respect for our Veterans from all conflicts.
> 
> OWDU
> 
> Iraq Vet


Ah yes, now I remember why I don't come here too often. Because I disagree with your point of view I am narrowminded. Your reply also implies that I accused those who hold a different point of view than mine as "... posing or showing off, or who cas pi$$ the furthest."
I have thought outside the circle, as can be seen by my suggestion of a shadow box but, again, as I am not in step with your preference then my mind is "fogged". Yeah, right!


----------



## 1feral1

Well SP, it works here and other Commonwealth countries throughout the free world, and it works well. Don't forget Mrs Wood wore her Son's Canadian service medals (remember - she lost 5 in WW1) on the RIGHT, and in front of the King, back in 1936 at the unvailing of the Canadian Vimy Memorial. If it was accepted then, thats 73 yrs ago, why not now? You can read more about it here (if you want) http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/ceris.htm

Your own words say your jumping into this topic without wanting to fully inform yourself, I did not say that.

Like I said, wearing of medals on the LEFT by posers etc is a crime, and there is even an Australian web site to track this and dob in posers, etc - See the link at the bottom of the page. 

So, whatever floats your boat SP, but should Canada adopt a similar way of rememberance, you can still have your shadow box. I am confident when the time is right, this will happen.

No need to get angry and accuse me of that bit about the 'pi$$ing the furthest' assumption, my point was that here we wear medals on the RIGHT as a sign of rememberance, honour and respect, as the pic of the young girl demonstrates on the front page of a Sydney newspaper.

Your quote "Ah yes, now I remember why I don't come here too often." Great attitude to express on here, but if you think we are a bunch of wankers or AH's, feel free not to come back, but I will say I find your comment rather rude, sorry, but I do.

So, pull your head in, and most importantly, do have a good pleasant evening.

OWDU

EDITed for clarity and spelling

DOUBLE EDIT: You might want to examine this website on posers and revealing them http://www.anzmi.net/info.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones

You can both 'pull your heads in' and quit acting like a couple of schoolgirls.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Hardrations

This is a really good conversation going on here. So I'll throw my 2 cents in. My wife who is a Mennonite born in the Ukraine had an Uncle killed while serving in the Wehrmacht of WW 2 and was awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class. So now you say a ha a traitor to Russia. Well now lets understand prior to the Russians going into WW 2 both his parents were taken off to the Gulags, they were considered Germans by the communist govt. of the day. So what does he owe in loyalty to the Russian Govt. He and many lads of his age joined the German Army voluntarily so as to hopefully free his parents. And remember the German Govt also considered them German (as it still does). A few years back my grandsons class was tasked to write an article on how past wars in Canada affected their families. On my suggestion he wrote on his Great Uncle who died fighting in the German Army. We had his uncles medal which my mother-in-law had kept, pictures of him as a young student and soldier ( the difference was notable). With my assistance he wrote his article, with the pictures and medal explaining why his uncle fought with the German army and told of how there was no known grave for him. Mind my wife and I have since had contact with the German Red Cross giving us information on him up to May 1944. His teacher was most impressed with this effort to show why and how a young man would do something like this on the opposing forces. We have to remember that aside from politics there was other reasons for some to enlist. His cousin who last saw him in Feb 44 told me that he was very disappointed in the war and what he had seen and experienced on the part of the Nazi's. I think it showed in the picture of him as a soldier.


----------



## Tharris

Possible legal issues etc aside, I suppose it's simply a matter for that individual to decide.  From these posts alone it's clear that the issue can be tricky but not irreconcilable.  Personally I would think someone bearing a be-Swastika'd medal at a ceremony would not be be advisable, but if this their form of commemoration (not necessarily supporting the ideology and so forth) then I have a degree of empathy for that position.  Remembrance can be a tricky thing sometimes...

That was my two cents which is literally worth that much, 

Regards, 

T.


----------



## 1feral1

If anyone is from Winnipeg and are over 40, they might remember this....

On a 11 Nov cold morning a German WWII Vet, now living in Canada went to the Cenotaph in the 'Peg wearing his original field cap.

Our Vets were there in strength, and overwhelmingly protested loudly at just his presence on this hallowed ground surrounding the cenotaph.

The uproar this caused got what I believe national attention, as the Leader Post, Regina's paper picked it up with pictures.

All about c.1980 or so.

Even after 36 yrs, the scab on the wounds of war were not fully healed over.

So, does this ring a bell with any of us old/bold and crusties?

You know, I am a packrat of sorts, and I will still have that clipping somewhere around in a safe place.

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## mariomike

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> On a 11 Nov cold morning a German WWII Vet, now living in Canada went to the Cenotaph in the 'Peg wearing his original field cap.
> Our Vets were there in strength, and overwhelmingly protested loudly at just his presence on this hallowed ground surrounding the cenotaph.
> Regards,
> OWDU



Schools of thought...
Manfred von Richthofen received full military honours from the Allies in 1918. That's a high profile example. But, even a prosaic Lancaster crew - ND994 - shot down behind German lines in July 1944 had a small delegation of German Luftwaffe officers from St Dizier attend the funeral. Along with a Forces Francaises de l'Interieur FFI honour guard! 
I don't speak for Allied World War veterans, but it wouldn't bother me personally to see German veterans at our Centaph at Old City Hall, or the Airmen's Memorial on University Ave. 
I should like to add that there is always a marchpast of veterans and emergency services in Toronto. I don't think German veterans will ever be invited to participate in that. I was referring to the people observing from the sidewalk. There's always people there from various ( I assume Allied? ) countries wearing medals.


----------



## TimBit

mariomike said:
			
		

> Schools of thought...
> Manfred von Richthofen received full military honours from the Allies in 1918. That's a high profile example. But, even a prosaic Lancaster crew - ND994 - shot down behind German lines in July 1944 had a small delegation of German Luftwaffe officers from St Dizier attend the funeral. Along with a Forces Francaises de l'Interieur FFI honour guard!
> I don't speak for Allied World War veterans, but it wouldn't bother me personally to see German veterans at our Centaph at Old City Hall, or the Airmen's Memorial on University Ave.



It just seems to me that they were upholding their duty, just like canadians were at the time. Different times different foes. I can understand personal feelings of antipathy from veterans back then, but to me Rememberance Day is a day about all those who served and fell in the line of duty, especially when you think that service was mandatory both over there and over here after conscription came into force.


----------



## mariomike

TimBit said:
			
		

> It just seems to me that they were upholding their duty, just like canadians were at the time.



Canadians were liberators.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Since we're arguing isolated and largely, in this day, hypothetical, cases, what about an ex-German soldier who later served in the Canadian Army?   What if he had official permission to wear his German medals?  Would you deny an 80+ year old man the opportunity to remember the fallen soldiers he served with?


----------



## mariomike

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Since we're arguing isolated and largely, in this day, hypothetical, cases, what about an ex-German soldier who later served in the Canadian Army?   What if he had official permission to wear his German medals?  Would you deny an 80+ year old man the opportunity to remember the fallen soldiers he served with?



There's all sorts of people wearing all sorts of medals in the crowd. You don't need permission. 
The marchpast is different. That would be up to the mayor. He's paid to handle the political "hot potato's". If permitted, I am sure it would be a first.
I worked with war vets - younger than I am now - from both sides. Some ( Canadian and British ) wore their ribbons on the job every day. The vets didn't always get along. Some angry silences. 
( I had to run "potato" throgh spell check. Remember Dan Quayle?! )


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Since we're arguing isolated and largely, in this day, hypothetical, cases, what about an ex-German soldier who later served in the Canadian Army?   What if he had official permission to wear his German medals?  Would you deny an 80+ year old man the opportunity to remember the fallen soldiers he served with?



Had just that case in the early 70's. One of the MCpls in the RCD had served in the German Merchant Navy during WWll. Although I only saw him wear his German decorations once. And that was just to spin our ex Brit SSM into the ground. Both are gone now.


----------



## geo

mariomike said:
			
		

> Canadians were liberators.



Not always...

If you talk to the people of Dresden or Hamburg, they don't really see us that way.

If you talk to the people of Hiroshimo or Nagasaki, they don't really see the Americans as liberators.


----------



## OpieRWestmrR

Legal requirements aside, for me it comes down to why the individual is wearing the decorations. A relative symbolically remembering a loved one on a national day of remembrance would be tolerable, in most cases. 
Actual veterans expressing unit or service pride I am ambivalent about. Depends whether they do it in the spirit of shared experience, I guess. In their shoes I would tread damned carefully and be grateful my former enemies were such magnanimous people.
If a person's motive for wearing ancestors' decorations smelled of politics or self-interest - to push a fascist revisionist agenda or indulge a crass national equipment fetish, for instance - well...


----------



## mariomike

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> On a 11 Nov cold morning a German WWII Vet, now living in Canada went to the Cenotaph in the 'Peg wearing his original field cap.
> All about c.1980 or so.
> Regards,
> OWDU



There was a similar incident reported in Lethbridge, Alberta in 1986.


----------



## dangerboy

If you want to get really obscure consider this case from World War 1.

Pte Harry Cochrane PPCLI was captured 2 Jun 1916 during the fighting in Sanctuary Wood. While working at the Bayreuth military hospital he saved the life of a German three year old child from drowning and was awarded the Bavarian Cross of Military Merit (Third Clasp) for his actions. Tragically he died from pneumonia in a French hospital on 28 Dec 19181

I do not think anyone would have questioned him wearing his medal.

1With the Patricia's in Flanders 1914-1918 Then & Now by Stephen K. Newman


----------



## IntlBr

geo said:
			
		

> Not always...
> 
> If you talk to the people of Dresden or Hamburg, they don't really see us that way.
> 
> If you talk to the people of Hiroshimo or Nagasaki, they don't really see the Americans as liberators.



And to go a step further, many people in Estonia considered Germany/the Nazis to be liberators from the Soviets.  This is reflected in the many, many Estonian men who signed up _en mass _ and *voluntarily* for service in elite German units like the Waffen SS - to fight off the Soviet invader.

This is the stuff that I love about history, the nitty-gritty of historical perspectives!


----------



## 1feral1

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> .
> Actual veterans expressing unit or service pride I am ambivalent about.



What if they were SS?

OWDU


----------



## TimBit

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> What if they were SS?
> 
> OWDU



True. Some (most) SS did some bad stuff... but I think they were a product of their time, their nationality and their regime. 

Ever heard of the Amritsar massacre and Geneal Dyer? 1526 civilian casualties in a matter of minutes. Yet he got to retire in his country home in England. That was in 1919. What I'm saying is, he did what he thought was right at the time. 

Looking back it seems monstrous, but in his system of values obviously it was right. I'm not a SS or nazi apologist at all. I'm just saying, some of them obviously thought what they were doing was right too. Maybe later in life they would feel downright shitty about it... and go to the cenotaph to try and make peace with themselves and former enemies?

Just a thought really...


----------



## geo

If you visit some small villages of the German alps, you might find citzens who truly believe that most of all the terrible things done during the Nazi regime was carried out by a few deranged souls.  Ditto for the Japanese who still do not recognize their nation's responsibility for the rape of Nanking.


----------



## Michael OLeary

geo said:
			
		

> If you visit some small villages of the German alps, you might find citzens who truly believe that most of all the terrible things done during the Nazi regime was carried out by a few deranged souls.  Ditto for the Japanese who still do not recognize their nation's responsibility for the rape of Nanking.



Isn't that same logic applicable to the Airborne Regiment?  Sweeping condemnation is harder to apply the closer it gets to home.


----------



## geo

Absolutely.

There was nothing wrong with the Airborne Regiment.  It might have needed a bit of a shake-up - but there was no need for a full and complete shutdown.  We tossed into the dumpster expertise that will never be recovered.


----------



## Michael OLeary

At the risk of dragging this tangent thread off on another, and well-beaten, one

These two statements are mutually exclusive:



			
				geo said:
			
		

> There was nothing wrong with the Airborne Regiment.





			
				geo said:
			
		

> It might have needed a bit of a shake-up -



Secondly, 



			
				geo said:
			
		

> We tossed into the dumpster expertise that will never be recovered.



Didn't that experience actually go back to the units members were posted to?


----------



## geo

statements that are mutually exclusive?
so what of it.
The flushing away of the CAR was a politicaly expedient solution to a perceived embarassment - the wrongs of a handful of soldiers should not be blown out of proportion.

All units need a shakeup once in a while.  Just because the unit is due for one does not mean that there is anything major that is wrong with it.

I can understand the French government's decision to disband the 1st REP for having joined an insurection but, the CAR did not deserve the attention and treatment that it got.


----------



## Michael OLeary

geo said:
			
		

> statements that are mutually exclusive?
> so what of it.



Sorry, I forgot you don't feel there's any requirement for your posts to make sense.



			
				geo said:
			
		

> The flushing away of the CAR was a politicaly expedient solution to a perceived embarassment - the wrongs of a handful of soldiers should not be blown out of proportion.



A perceived embarrassment?  "Peacekeeper beats civilian captive to death" - how, exactly, can that only be "perceived" as an embarrassing event?



			
				geo said:
			
		

> All units need a shakeup once in a while.  Just because the unit is due for one does not mean that there is anything major that is wrong with it.



Hmmm, so the culture of the unit, with hazings, the burning of a jeep in protest over "perceived" expectations of following regulations, orders allowing the shooting of suspected thieves between the "flip-flops and loin-cloth", the beating of a bound teenager to death, all that had nothing to do with it ....  nope, no trends to indicate the possibility of any major problems there.  



			
				geo said:
			
		

> I can understand the French government's decision to disband the 1st REP for having joined an insurection but, the CAR did not deserve the attention and treatment that it got.



That's one opinion.


----------



## Burrows

mariomike said:
			
		

> Canadians were liberators.


Posting a oneliner doesn't make anything true.  War is war.  Not every German in WW2 was a "Murderous Hun, Death Camp Commandant" and you can sure as hell bet that every Canadian wasn't a "Benevolent Liberator, Superhero and Saviour".  To assume such about a topic such as this just demonstrates naivety to a high degree.  While every side wants to believe they're the good side - let's get serious.  Bad things happen on both sides.

Personally, if there was a Wermacht vet standing beside me on remembrance day wearing an Iron Cross First Class, I wouldn't treat him any different than someone who had a VC.  Just because someone is valiant on the opposing side, doesn't make what they did any less brave.  If Hitler walked around giving people VCs, I'm sure we'd have an issue with that as well.

Medals are earned - provided they weren't earned in the wrong way, I have no issue with someone wearing medals of the enemy.


----------



## OpieRWestmrR

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> What if they were SS?
> 
> OWDU



Yes, that's what I'm havering over. At a Canadian remembrance it would be a big ask, and I think it would be appropriate for Canadian veterans to object. An SS man's ancestor wearing decorations in Canada would be an affront, given the political nature of that organisation. 

NOT an exact parallel: My great uncle was a Lancaster tail gunner and I honour his memory, but if I lived in Germany I would not be so insensitive as to invite myself to a German ceremony of remembrance wearing his decorations. 

The model for the positive side of this coin is the annual Gallipoli observance which goes forward with surprisingly little controversy (that I can recall). Obviously, the people who attend are ancestors of the men who fought there, on both sides.


----------



## mariomike

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> My great uncle was a Lancaster tail gunner and I honour his memory, but if I lived in Germany I would not be so insensitive as to invite myself to a German ceremony of remembrance wearing his decorations.



I said something similar:
Reply #16 on: March 15, 2009, 19:09:41


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> ... snip...
> 
> The model for the positive side of this coin is the annual Gallipoli observance which goes forward with surprisingly little controversy (that I can recall). Obviously, the people who attend are ancestors of the men who fought there, on both sides.



One could argue this has a lot to do with the fact that neither the Australians, the New Zealanders or the Turks instigated the battle.

- I realize that there were also English, Welsh, Scots, Irish, Newfoundlanders at Gallipoli, but the observation of Gallipoli does not seem to happen in those countries/provinces -


----------



## 2551

In my opinion, people in Canada should be allowed to wear their ancestors "medals" on remembrance day, on the right side.  That the wearer happens to be a cadet , or wearing a uniform, is neither here nor there - the distinction between the left and right side would make it immediately apparent to those who know that they are not the recipients. 

Given the emotion apparent in some of the posts, there are those with very strong objections to allowing this, and I wonder who it is they are protecting, and why they think protection is required?  

In my opinion, those who actually won the "medals" would not object to this - certainly my father would not have.  I have several uncles who have their share of medals - when I asked them, they had no objections.  In fact, their first reaction was more likely to be "why does anyone care?", and their second was "go ahead if it is important to you".

A lot of the posts question the motives of those who want to wear the medals.  That is a go nowhere effort - we would all like to think that those doing it were driven by the highest of morals, but that is not possible.  There will always be some who are "posers".  At the end of the day, how much damage could they do, and who are they harming? 

In our efforts to stop the "posers", should we ban the practice outright?  It would be, no, it is a real shame that those medals have been relegated to "shadow boxes" or the attic, never to be seen again.  Is that where a Victoria Cross belongs, or a Distinguished Conduct Medal?

Some have suggested that there are other ways to remember those who have been awarded.  I invite you to go to the Governor Generals website.  The Governor Generals office is responsible for the award of decorations and honours (amongst other things). I was there not too long ago, trying to find information about a recipient (and a friend of mine) of a British Empire Medal.  It was not to be.  They only provide information about decorations under the "new" system.  The only carryover from the former system is the Victoria Cross, and information is available about them.  But what about the others?  

Many people have donated their fathers/relatives medals to the Canadian War Museum, as a way to preserve them, and probably to have them displayed.  Recently I was in contact with the museum about this.  The simple fact is that they do not have the room to display all of the medals they have.

I leave you with these questions:

I wonder who among you would object if a relative of a VC recipient was to wear it on Rembrance Day?

Who would object if the lady who lost all those sons was to wear those medals at the next Remembrance Day?

Who would object if the son of that friend of mine wore his dad's medals next remembrance day?


----------



## mariomike

In the crowd, all sorts of people wear all sorts of medals. The media focus their cameras on those with the most. 
It's only the people in the marchpast who are inspected by those in charge.


----------



## tomahawk6

If you earned the medal wear it. If you didnt ,put in a nice display case.


----------



## PanaEng

Good post 2551.

And t answer your questions:
I wouldn't x 3.
I have encouraged my scouts and cubs to wear their ancestors medals - properly (on the right) and with pride - during the Remembrance  Day ceremonies.

chimo,
Frank


----------



## redleafjumper

"If you earned the medal wear it. If you didnt, put in a nice display case."

Exactly - who am I to wear medals that I have not earned?  My grandfather earned his at Ypres and Vimy and his medals properly reside in a respectful place.
I show them to my children and explain what they were for; likewise when they ask about mine or those of others I provide them with a clear explanation.  It is all about history and respect. 

The common point that I see in this thread is that everyone agrees with the need to show proper respect.  The difference is that what some see as showing respect, others see as disrespectful or perhaps as excessive pride, or in the worst case unabashed ego or bravado.  The Canadian practice is not to wear medals that have not been earned and I personally support that tradition.  As my friend Wesley has pointed out, the Australian tradition is different and well received - it just isn't something that I personally find appealling.  

Cheers,


----------



## Michael OLeary

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> The Canadian practice is not to wear medals that have not been earned and I personally support that tradition.  As my friend Wesley has pointed out, the Australian tradition is different and well received - it just isn't something that I personally find appealling.



Which doesn't mean the Canadian approach could never change, and it's equally disrespectful for anyone to demonize the alternatives or to use misleading language when discussing the issue.


----------



## 2551

I wonder if anyone has researched the reasons why we in Canada made the wearing of "medals you did not win" a crime?

Note that I am making a distinction between "that you did not win" versus "those of an ancestor".  

I have some recollection, but cannot confirm, that this was added to the criminal code because we had to introduce the draft in Canada during WWII.  I believe that some draftees were purchasing and wearing the Voluntary Service Medal, which they were not entitled to (because they had been drafted).  In typical bureaucratic fashion, the law was changed in such a way that it shut the door on everyone, not just the intended target.  Thus the examples I gave in my previous post should all have resulted in some sort of police action (and which no one has so far agreed should have been charged or dealt with).

I am one of those who believe that if you are not going to or cannot enforce the law, then don't have the law.

I suspect that things will change when someone "illegally" wears their ancestors medals and makes a lot of "noise" about it in the press.

Again I ask those opposed:  who or what are you protecting? 

I leave it with you.


----------



## Franko

2551 said:
			
		

> I wonder if anyone has researched the reasons why we in Canada made the wearing of "medals you did not win" a crime?
> 
> Note that I am making a distinction between "that you did not win" versus "those of an ancestor".
> 
> I have some recollection, but cannot confirm, that this was added to the criminal code because we had to introduce the draft in Canada during WWII.  I believe that some draftees were purchasing and wearing the Voluntary Service Medal, which they were not entitled to (because they had been drafted).  In typical bureaucratic fashion, the law was changed in such a way that it shut the door on everyone, not just the intended target.  Thus the examples I gave in my previous post should all have resulted in some sort of police action (and which no one has so far agreed should have been charged or dealt with).
> 
> I am one of those who believe that if you are not going to or cannot enforce the law, then don't have the law.
> 
> I suspect that things will change when someone "illegally" wears their ancestors medals and makes a lot of "noise" about it in the press.
> 
> Again I ask those opposed:  who or what are you protecting?
> 
> I leave it with you.



Okay...I'll give this a go. 

First off, you don't "win" a medal, you earn them. I know a few guys wounded in the past few tours and they sure as hell didn't "win" a sacrifice medal, never mind the countless WW2, Korean War vets. 

Please don't ever make that mistake again on this site.

As for it being a criminal act, medals are bestowed on the recipient for actions they did willingly, like volunteering to serve represented by the WW2 Volunteer Medal.

Would you like to see some poser wearing a Medal of Bravery or Medal of Valour to a Remembrance Day parade? I liken it to someone spitting in the face of every recipient in the past who earned their medal, some of them posthumously.

I have an uncle who served in the RCN during WW2 and one of his service pins has, stamped on the back, that "if you are not a recipient of this pin you will be charged and sentenced for 6 months and a fine of $600". Bear in mind this was issued in 1946. I believe that it was stamped in this manner to stop draftee posers from wearing them.

The wearing of a medal you didn't earn is an insult to every recipient of that honour, regardless of what you or your family personally thinks.

If you want to do the right thing, get the medals court mounted,gold and nickle dipped (so they don't tarnish) then get a shadow box made so that the medals can be displayed properly. You can get them made with your ancestors service picture in the same frame. Put it in a place of prominence in your home so that others can see it and remember what your family member did for their country.

Regards


----------



## George Wallace

2551 said:
			
		

> I wonder if anyone has researched the reasons why we in Canada made the wearing of "medals you did not win" a crime?



Perhaps you could simply look into the Laws against the wearing of any Canadian, or Allied Nation's, military uniforms and accoutraments, other than by members of the military.  Medals are accoutraments.  

If you are not now, nor never ever been, a member of the CF, or an Allied Nation's military, then you would be breaking the Law if you wore any part of their military uniform or pieces thereof, if not a Serving Member.

This has been covered in other topics on that very subject.


----------



## Michael OLeary

This thread keeps getting derailed by the inclusion of the phrase "wearing medals one did not earn."  That phrase implies the assumption that the wearing of any medals at any time other than those personally earned are worn only to deceive and to make others believe that they wearer is the original recipient and thus deserving of whatever presumed honour and privilege that means.

For this discussion to have any usefulness, that idea must be set aside.  It is a red herring within the intent of this thread's purpose.

What this thread has been discussing is the possibility of wearing an ancestor's medals, under very specific rules and regulations, not to deceive, but to openly honour the service (and where applicable, the sacrifice) of that ancestor or family member who can no longer wear them him or herself.

This could be done in a number of ways to make it clear to every observer that these are not being worn to deceive.  For example:

- wear on the right breast (as mentioned)
- court-mounting in reverse order, which returns higher (or chronologically earlier) awards to the centre of the chest.
- perhaps mandating that such medals will be court mounted with a band of narrow black ribbon across the ribbons of the mounted medals
- supported by public educational campaign by the Government (or even by the Legion since many of its own members would be so honoured by their descendants, though this may lead to people noticing how many extra "medals" are issued by the Legion itself)

The idea that the wearing of medals to deceive is such a serious concern that this proposal does not even deserve discussion is marrow-minded.  If wearinf of medals in such a way is allowed, it encourages people to bring those medals into public view, to be able to explain who their ancestor was, where they served and what they did in service to our country.  It expands our shared awareness of Canada's military history and our military's contribution to our nation's growth and success.

This can be a positive measure, if we look for ways for it to be so and isolate the little things we don't like to find ways to mitigate them for a mutually beneficial result.


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you are not now, nor never ever been, a member of the CF, or an Allied Nation's military, then you would be breaking the Law if you wore any part of their military uniform or pieces thereof, if not a Serving Member.



I wish I had a loonie for every time I've seen that on Yonge Street over the years.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> George Wallace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are not now, nor never ever been, a member of the CF, or an Allied Nation's military, then you would be breaking the Law if you wore any part of their military uniform or pieces thereof, if not a Serving Member.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had a loonie for every time I've seen that on Yonge Street over the years.
Click to expand...


To be clear about this interpretation of the Criminal Code, note the requirement for the similarity to be effective enough to deceive.  The wearing of surplus cast-offs doesn't count.



> Unlawful use of military uniforms or certificates
> 
> 419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,
> 
> (a) *wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor*,
> 
> (b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,
> 
> (c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or
> 
> (d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,
> 
> is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
> 
> R.S., c. C-34, s. 377.



LINK

Also, sub-paragraph (B) is the item that would require amendment if any proposal to allow the wear of ancestors' medals for memorial purposes could be allowed.


----------



## ModlrMike

According to an historian friend of mine, this section of the Criminal Code was proglamated shortly after WWI due to the large numbers of frauds claiming benefits or honours not due them. This certainly makes sense given the language law ie:"likely to be mistaken".


Perhaps it's time for a quiet ammendment to this section that permits the wearing of ancestors medals at remembrance services.


----------



## 2551

First off, you don't "win" a medal, you earn them. I know a few guys wounded in the past few tours and they sure as hell didn't "win" a sacrifice medal, never mind the countless WW2, Korean War vets. 

Please don't ever make that mistake again on this site.


[/quote]

Well, sir, it seems that you and I are talking about two different things.  When I refer to a "medal", I am not referring to what is commonly referred to as a "campaign" medal - and I am not talking about the new system of awards to those who are wounded.  I am referring to medals issued for valour.  It is quite common to refer to someone as having "won" a VC, or a DCM.  
With regard to your friends who were wounded and received a medal - you are right - they did not win them. If you want to pronounce that medals are "earned" rather than "won", then bully for you.  

Perhaps it would have been wiser and a more mature action for you to have sought clarification before you issued this warning.  Or perhaps that is asking or expecting too much?  In either event it matters little.


----------



## Franko

2551 said:
			
		

> First off, you don't "win" a medal, you earn them. I know a few guys wounded in the past few tours and they sure as hell didn't "win" a sacrifice medal, never mind the countless WW2, Korean War vets.
> 
> Please don't ever make that mistake again on this site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, sir, it seems that you and I are talking about two different things.  When I refer to a "medal", I am not referring to what is commonly referred to as a "campaign" medal - and I am not talking about the new system of awards to those who are wounded.  I am referring to medals issued for valour.  It is quite common to refer to someone as having "won" a VC, or a DCM.
> With regard to your friends who were wounded and received a medal - you are right - they did not win them. If you want to pronounce that medals are "earned" rather than "won", then bully for you.
> 
> Perhaps it would have been wiser and a more mature action for you to have sought clarification before you issued this warning.  Or perhaps that is asking or expecting too much?  In either event it matters little.



And with that...you are now on the ramp.

Regards


----------



## 1feral1

Hi all, I'll briefly weigh in here beofe I head off to the TV and bed. Its a crappy cold damp late autumn night here, hovering around 18C.

My 2 bob about medals overall. Firstly, I have 5 (3 Aussie, and 2 Canuck), and I am about to get my 6th Aussie gong shortly.

There is a difference between wearing them on the left and right. 

Those 'impersonating' would be considered being worn on the left, while those wearing them in remberance on ANZAC Day or 11 Nov, or Long Tan Day (19 Aug) wear them on the right. Two seperate issues folks, two seperate issues. Australia has harsh penalties for such fraudsters, and this includes publically naming them in the media and on related websites.

I view my gongs as being earned, especially my Australian Active Service Medal (w/Iraq Clasp), Iraq Campaign Medal, and my Army Combat Badge. I did not win anything, but Commonwealth army slang has this term 'won/win' usually used when it comes to awards of bravery or valour and this at least goes back to WW1.

The term to win or won a medal is commonly used here, and when I did a search on this site using just 'won vc', I ended up with 4 pages of posts from threads here on army.ca in regards to the overal topic. If anyone wants, please feel free to so this search on here, and look for yourselves.

I have a good mate that 'won' an Australia Bravery Medal as an SASR Tpr, and another long time mate back in Canada who 'won' a SMV in Afghanistan. I am both humbled and proud to have served with both of these men.

Regards to all,

Wes


----------



## Michael OLeary

The following is taken from a post on the Great War Forum, which I believe provides a relevant view describing two people who personally suffered loss:



> Just as British school children go to Ypres and the Somme, French and German children go to Verdun for much the same reason. When we were there in 2001 there were two separate French groups and one German. plus of course any number of private tourists; we got to know a German lady at the hostel we shared whose grandfather was missing in action in the area. we went together to the cemetery on the outskirts of the city beside the road leading up to the battlefields. walking around we drifted apart and she was near to an older French woman who had come to visit her grandfather's grave, possibly for the last time given her apparent age. the old lady suddenly burst into tears and it was the German woman who, without a word spoken, reached out and embraced her. after a while they went back to town together and when we returned we happened to find them sharing dinner. it seemed unconscionably rude to interrupt but i would like to think that they had found a common ground amidst a shared tragedy.



At what point does emotion move from societal hatred for a long dead enemy, and into shared remembrance of the sacrifice of family members without regard for colour of uniform?


----------



## OpieRWestmrR

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> At what point does emotion move from societal hatred for a long dead enemy, and into shared remembrance of the sacrifice of family members without regard for colour of uniform?



Well framed! 

I guess the feeling in wider society depends mainly on two things: the society's political conviction and the attitude of its living veterans. 

If the enemy was thoroughly demonised during wartime the enmity can become part of social fabric - I'm thinking of how some Islamic rhetoric dates back to the crusades. Under those circumstances it would be very difficult to 'forgive' a former enemy to the point of shared remembrance. The enemy remains the enemy forever.

Otherwise, once a war is over and propaganda stops, where does the public get its attitude from? Memory, as a sort of default, modified over time by what returning veterans have to say. The more veterans there are, the greater their influence.

If veterans felt they had fought a 'professional' war - North Africa, for instance - reconciliation to the idea of a shared ordeal might be fairly quick among them, and they would give civilians that impression.

I don't see that happening among veterans of the Eastern Front. War in the Pacific 1939-45 doesn't see much sharing even though Japan and the US are now very close politically and economically. 

The wave of pacifism after the Great War was striking in popular literature on both sides. Germans resented reparations but I think people took the idea of joint remembrance of an unrepeatable horror more seriously than the potential for another global war. Then along came the Nazis which sort of kills my premise. Can't do what Hitler did without popular support.

Guerrilla war you might expect to be different, but views on Vietnam and greater southeast Asia seem close to the point of shared remembrance. Maybe that has to do with the very negative public attitudes in the West during the war. That made coming home a bitter experience for Australian veterans but many of them go to Vietnam on humanitarian missions now.


----------



## Michael OLeary

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> Well framed!
> 
> I guess the feeling in wider society depends mainly on two things: the society's political conviction and the attitude of its living veterans.
> 
> If the enemy was thoroughly demonised during wartime the enmity can become part of social fabric - I'm thinking of how some Islamic rhetoric dates back to the crusades. Under those circumstances it would be very difficult to 'forgive' a former enemy to the point of shared remembrance. The enemy remains the enemy forever.
> 
> Otherwise, once a war is over and propaganda stops, where does the public get its attitude from? Memory, as a sort of default, modified over time by what returning veterans have to say. The more veterans there are, the greater their influence.



I'm not certain it's the collective word of the veteran as much as it is the outspoken minority followed by an echo of sympathetic repetition in subsequent analysis by journalist/authors and academics.  How often do we see it stated that so many veterans seldom spoke of their time at war.  What we have heard is not a collective voice that can be judged with certainty as a majority view (regardless of what the agencies who claim to speak for the "silent majority" claim).

Instead we are left with a singular opinions (lions led by donkeys; acceptability of the bomber campaign, etc.) which have been consistently followed by a simplified drumbeat of support that drowns out any challenging viewpoint - even to the extent of alternate views being risked as academic suicide at times if proposed in theses or published works.

The propaganda does not stop at the ceasefire, it changes shape, origin and target - but it certainly does not cease.



			
				OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> If veterans felt they had fought a 'professional' war - North Africa, for instance - reconciliation to the idea of a shared ordeal might be fairly quick among them, and they would give civilians that impression.
> 
> I don't see that happening among veterans of the Eastern Front. War in the Pacific 1939-45 doesn't see much sharing even though Japan and the US are now very close politically and economically.
> 
> The wave of pacifism after the Great War was striking in popular literature on both sides. Germans resented reparations but I think people took the idea of joint remembrance of an unrepeatable horror more seriously than the potential for another global war. Then along came the Nazis which sort of kills my premise. Can't do what Hitler did without popular support.
> 
> Guerrilla war you might expect to be different, but views on Vietnam and greater southeast Asia seem close to the point of shared remembrance. Maybe that has to do with the very negative public attitudes in the West during the war. That made coming home a bitter experience for Australian veterans but many of them go to Vietnam on humanitarian missions now.



And yet, if some of these groups can find reconciliation and mutual support, then why is it that populations thousands of miles from the point of conflict and generations later that continue to foster this sense of societal "hatred"?

How is it that we can have people say that the entire Airborne Regiment should not have been branded and punished for the actions of two soldiers (as limited as that view might be), yet the actions of the SS will forever condemn every German soldier and his heritage?


----------



## OpieRWestmrR

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I'm not certain it's the collective word of the veteran as much as it is the outspoken minority followed by an echo of sympathetic repetition in subsequent analysis by journalist/authors and academics.  How often do we see it stated that so many veterans seldom spoke of their time at war.  What we have heard is not a collective voice that can be judged with certainty as a majority view (regardless of what the agencies who claim to speak for the "silent majority" claim).
> 
> Instead we are left with a singular opinions (lions led by donkeys; acceptability of the bomber campaign, etc.) which have been consistently followed by a simplified drumbeat of support that drowns out any challenging viewpoint - even to the extent of alternate views being risked as academic suicide at times if proposed in theses or published works.
> 
> The propaganda does not stop at the ceasefire, it changes shape, origin and target - but it certainly does not cease.



What I mean by 'propaganda' is the systematic campaign to recruit public opinion to a war effort: posters in defence plants, movies, radio programs, news bulletins. After the shooting stopped that campaign ceased to be pervasive and exclusive. It became possible to publish anti-war literature and screen _All Quiet on the Western Front_ in Allied nations. After all, former enemies had to do business together to rebuild the world economy.  After 1939-45 the Marshall Plan had to gain political traction. Some shibboleths remain today in cheap entertainment - don't get me started on _Saving Private Ryan _ or _U505_ - but I don't think we can call it deliberate cultivation of hatred. Popular entertainment can be very sympathetic towards the enemy. 

I agree about the power of vocal minorities. I know from personal experience how media thrives on controversy. It's easy to make debate over a complex and bloody business last forever particularly if there's a sniff of incompetence and cover-up. However, I also believe the men who survived made their feelings towards the enemy quite clear to their families no matter how little detail they offered. 

I think it's possible to despise your own wartime leadership and at the same time continue to hate the enemy. Families of casualties would inevitably hold the enemy responsible, adding to the inertia of hatred. In Germany the Kaiser was deposed and E M Remarque published his classic (1928), yet people were ready and *willing *for a rematch under Hitler inside a decade (Rhineland 1936). 



> ...yet the actions of the SS will forever condemn every German soldier and his heritage?



I find most people in Australia think the SS was some kind of secret police, separate from the German field forces and tasked with atrocities. Their attitude towards Germans is much less fraught than towards the Japanese. But Australians never fought SS units, which may support my notion of a 'clean' war making a difference. It would be interesting to know how Canadians feel about the Japanese, given so few of our people fought against them on the ground or suffered as PWs.


----------



## mariomike

2551 said:
			
		

> It is quite common to refer to someone as having "won" a VC, or a DCM.



Copy/paste from Milnet home page:
"Today in Military History  
April 25
1915: 
VC won by Capt Francis Alexander Caron Scrimger, Canadian Army Medical Corps attached to the 14th Battalion, CEF, Ypres, France."


----------



## Michael OLeary

The term "winning" (of certain medals) is common, although arguably incorrect, usage.  It's certainly not worth a continuing derailment of this thread's purpose.


----------



## 1feral1

Well, after still suffering from a not-so-nice hangover, I thought I'd post this pic of someone wearing medals on the right.  Taken not long before the ANZAC Day march yesterday, on Bribie Island.

This pic speaks for itself. The bloke closest is wearing his own (Viet Nam Vet) on the left, a relative's WW2 medals - perhaps his Dad's) on the right, and his daughter is wearing her own ADM (also on the left).

Examine closely, others are also wearing them on both sides. 

Remember, there is a difference between wearing them on the left and right. This form of honour and rememberance is common place here, its a part of our culture and heritage. This exemplifies the ANZAC spirit which is openly carried on from one generation to another.  This is a 180 degree difference from Canada. Thats just how it is.

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## geo

> It would be interesting to know how Canadians feel about the Japanese, given so few of our people fought against them on the ground or suffered as PWs


.
http://www.museedelaguerre.ca/cwm/exhibitions/chrono/1931japan_e.shtml
Canada responded to the outbreak of war with Japan by significantly strengthening its Pacific coastal defences, ultimately stationing more than 30,000 troops, 14 air force squadrons, and over 20 warships in British Columbia. Canadian forces also co-operated with the United States in clearing the Japanese from the Aleutian islands off Alaska. Before Japan surrendered in August 1945, a Canadian cruiser, H.M.C.S. Uganda, participated in Pacific naval operations, two Royal Canadian Air Force (R.C.A.F.) transport squadrons flew supplies in India and Burma, and communications specialists served in Australia.

I would say that the soldiers of the Winnipeg Grenadiers & the Royal Rifles of Canada who fought in Hong Kong & survived the labour camps of Japan feel pretty hard about the Japanese.  Their treatment was brutal with a capital "B".


----------



## Journeyman

geo said:
			
		

> I would say that the soldiers of the Winnipeg Grenadiers & the Royal Rifles of Canada who fought in Hong Kong & survived the labour camps of Japan feel pretty hard about the Japanese.



Next time you're watching The Bridge on the River Kwai, know that there are a lot of graves with a maple leaf and those regiment's names on them in the Commonwealth War Cemetery beside the bridge in Kanchanaburi Thailand. 

Yes, there really _is_ a Bridge on the River Kwai, and it wasn't just Alec Guinness who built it.



* Actually, I just posted that link to get the "Colonel Bogey March" stuck in your heads


----------



## mariomike

Journeyman said:
			
		

> * Actually, I just posted that link to get the "Colonel Bogey March" stuck in your heads



Colonel Saito: Do you know what will happen to me if the bridge is not built on time? 
Colonel Nicholson: I haven't the foggiest. 
Colonel Saito: I'll have to kill myself. What would you do if you were me? 
Colonel Nicholson: I suppose if I were you... I'd have to kill myself. 
Colonel Nicholson: [raising the glass of scotch he previously declined] Cheers!


----------



## YYC Retired

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And where does it say that?  Perhaps you can provide a reference.



Sorry to dig up such an old thread, but, a reference was asked for and I've finally found the time to do a bit of research.

So, here goes..

Army Standing Orders for Dress
Volume Two
Part Five
Chapter 4
Paragraph 4.9
Sub-Paragraph b

Wearing of foreign awards earned while a member of a foreign service
4.9 Approval may be given for a person enlisting in the Australian Army to wear medals earned
while a member of a foreign service. The basic criteria for approval are that:
a. such medals were earned during operations which are supported by the Australian
Government;
b. were not earned while serving with enemy forces; and
c. awards have equivalent Australian awards, for example long service awards should
have similar qualifying periods.

The above was copied from the online version of the Australian Army Standing Orders for Dress and apply to wearing of the awards on uniform, not on civvy dress.

And in reading the title again, a little off topic... sorry.

Cheers....


----------



## Michael OLeary

Looks like this one is back in the media:

Article link



> *Veteran's wife can't legally wear military medals*
> CBC News
> Posted: Oct 28, 2011 7:09 AM AT
> Last Updated: Oct 28, 2011 7:45 AM AT
> 
> A Charlottetown woman says she wants to honour her late husband by wearing his military medals for Remembrance Day, but she doesn't want to break the law.
> 
> Madrien Ferris would like to wear the 10 medals her husband Albert received during his 30 years in the Canadian Armed Forces. But Article 419 of the Criminal Code prohibits anyone other than the veteran from doing so.
> 
> "The medals are very important to me. He loved being in the military, that was his great, great love," said Ferris.
> 
> "And I think that's really a shame because now his medals are no longer on display. They're just put away somewhere."
> 
> Our Duty, a non-profit group in Newfoundland that advocates for veterans, said children and spouses should be able to wear the medals as an act of remembrance, something that's allowed in Britain and Australia.
> 
> "Clearly, this section of the code is intended to target fraud and those who might impersonate a veteran," said the group's president Jeff Rose-Martland in a news release Wednesday.
> 
> "However, there are no exemptions or defences outlined in the code."
> 
> Attempts have been made in Canada to change the law, but so far that hasn't happened.
> 
> A spokesman from Canada's Veterans Affairs Department said veterans are divided on the issue, but he doesn't know of any plans to change the law.
> 
> For now, Ferris's medals will stay in storage.
> 
> "I hope that the law will be changed one day," said Madrien Ferris. "That my children or my grandchildren will take pride in wearing them."


----------



## Good2Golf

She could have her husband's medals mounted in a "shadow box" (examples here and here) and bring them with her to the rememberance ceremony.  People will see the medals she carries and likely ask questions about them more than they will spark up a conversation with someone wearing (unbeknownst to them) someone else's medals.

Regards
G2G


----------



## 57Chevy

G2G,
        excellent response +300 coming your way  :yellow:


----------



## Pusser

I just don't get it.  Why do people want to wear somebody else's medals?  I really don't think it matters whether you wear them on the left side or the right side.  Many people don't understand the distinction and will think they belong to the wearer.  I don't buy the argument that they can worn in honour of someone else.  It's not much of a memorial if there is no explanation, so unless you're wearing a picture and a card telling others who is being honoured, I don't see it.  I can't help but feel that many folks want to participate in the renewed popularity of veterans nowadays and want to try and live vicariously through their ancestors.  I think the best way to honour your ancestors is to mount the medals properly, and display them on your wall where they can be seen everyday, not just a few times a year.


----------



## medicineman

Pusser said:
			
		

> I just don't get it.  Why do people want to wear somebody else's medals?



Attention.

MM


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Pusser said:
			
		

> I just don't get it.  Why do people want to wear somebody else's medals?  I really don't think it matters whether you wear them on the left side or the right side.  Many people don't understand the distinction and will think they belong to the wearer.  I don't buy the argument that they can worn in honour of someone else.  It's not much of a memorial if there is no explanation, so unless you're wearing a picture and a card telling others who is being honoured, I don't see it.  I can't help but feel that many folks want to participate in the renewed popularity of veterans nowadays and want to try and live vicariously through their ancestors.  I think the best way to honour your ancestors is to mount the medals properly, and display them on your wall where they can be seen everyday, not just a few times a year.



Agreed. Would never dream of wearing either of my grandfathers WWII medals. Simply put, they ain't mine! I may only have two but at least my name and service number are engraved on em.


----------



## cupper

Pusser said:
			
		

> I just don't get it.  Why do people want to wear somebody else's medals?



I think that some people look at it as a way of remembering their loved one's contribution. However misguided the thought may be, some have an honourable intention. But they don't understand that the medals are earned, and the meaning behind earning any given medal is special to those who have earned them. 

(Not to say that some medals are "earned" just by being good at CYA ;D)

I know when my dad passes, I would like to put them up in a display, but I would never consider wearing them as an honour to him, simply because it was he that earned them. (Grant you all that he received in his career was a CD w/ Bar, the SJ and the SSM w/ NATO bar) But still, it was a part of what he earned during his career, and should be displayed in manner that is appropriate, without lessening the meaning.


----------



## Michael OLeary

cupper said:
			
		

> I think that some people look at it as a way of remembering their loved one's contribution. However misguided the thought may be, some have an honourable intention. But they don't understand that the medals are earned, and the meaning behind earning any given medal is special to those who have earned them.



I wouldn't call it misguided, there are places where it is done (according to specific guidelines) and I wouldn't want to denigrate their rites of Remembrance simply because they don't align with ours. 

Current Canadian regulations and law say it's not done, and I'm OK with that. But if someone wants to have the law changed, I would hope that the leading edge is very specific direction on what is and is not allowed. I would also expect that both the Government and those Veterans' groups that claim themselves to be in front of Remembrance activities would work very hard at ensuring their promotional activities include an annual educational campaign, not only on the changed regulation, but also on the wide variety of medals that citizens might then see. The outcome could be better awareness of the wide participation of Canadians in our military history, and a better understanding of what they did. Done right, it could be a beneficial change. Done poorly, it would be an embarrassment to all involved.


----------



## Infanteer

Wouldn't that be a frontpage story - a veteran's widow in cuffs for wearing her husband's medals on Remembrance Day.... :facepalm:


----------



## Pat in Halifax

I had a second issue of dad's medals (older brother has the originals) court mounted and got a cap badge from his unit (Hasty Ps) and had a tally made with YOS, SN etc and built them into a nice oak box. It proudly hangs in the front entrance way to home (right beside my "Home is where the Navy sends you" plaque) for all friends and family to see upon entering. On Remembrance Day, and BOA Sunday, I carry a picture of him as well as his original beret in the inside left breast pocket of my tunic. That's enough for me. He is my hero; it is not my intent to try to sell him as yours.


----------



## Journeyman

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> ...and those Veterans' groups that claim themselves to be in front of Remembrance activities would work very hard....


 That would be these people?  :

If their track record, and other opinions on them posted, are any indication, I think we both know the outcome of their "hard work" -- leave the law as it stands.


----------



## Pusser

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I wouldn't call it misguided, there are places where it is done (according to specific guidelines) and I wouldn't want to denigrate their rites of Remembrance simply because they don't align with ours.
> 
> Current Canadian regulations and law say it's not done, and I'm OK with that. But if someone wants to have the law changed, I would hope that the leading edge is very specific direction on what is and is not allowed. I would also expect that both the Government and those Veterans' groups that claim themselves to be in front of Remembrance activities would work very hard at ensuring their promotional activities include an annual educational campaign, not only on the changed regulation, but also on the wide variety of medals that citizens might then see. The outcome could be better awareness of the wide participation of Canadians in our military history, and a better understanding of what they did. Done right, it could be a beneficial change. Done poorly, it would be an embarrassment to all involved.



Unfortunately, therein lies the rub.  I have absolutely no faith that it will be done right.  In fact, my educated guess (based on years of observation of such things) would be that it would be done drastically wrong.  There are so many misconceptions out there on military customs and traditions that adding another element to the mix will only make it worse.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Pusser, my Dad died on the 2nd of Nov.  I took his miniatures with me that 11th as he could not be there himself.  I was still grieving for him and it made me feel closer to him at that time.  Perhaps, that is why someone would want to wear an ancestor's medals on the right breast as is done in some countries.  If you don't feel the need, well that is all well and good for you.  Maybe what makes your clockwork mechanism go whirr is not what will make the next man/woman's go whirr.  Funny, everyone being an individual eh?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The way I see it is, it's not up to us to decide how a family member wishes to honour their departed hero. It's up to them.

If I see a ten year old daughter of a departed service member wearing their medals on the right side of her coat, I am not going to take issue with it.

I dare any one of you to tell her to remove them, or call the police to enforce the law.

If you're willing to let her do it, you have to let every family member, no matter the age or gender do it, if they wish. If their heart is pure and their intentions genuine, it's none of my business and I say 'Good on them' for perpetuating the memory of a dear departed one that has served their country honourably and been willing to step up to the plate when so many others weren't.

Let them relish in their pride, for their departed and loved Serviceperson, one day a year, without a bunch of meddaling busybodies to ruin the memory for them and, probably, keep them away from the services, totally soured from the experience, from that day on.


----------



## cupper

:goodpost:

You've given me pause for thought, to think again about my previous post.


----------



## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> The way I see it is, it's not up to us to decide how a family member wishes to honour their departed hero. It's up to them.
> 
> If I see a ten year old daughter of a departed service member wearing their medals on the right side of her coat, I am not going to take issue with it.
> 
> I dare any one of you to tell her to remove them, or call the police to enforce the law.
> 
> If you're willing to let her do it, you have to let every family member, no matter the age or gender do it, if they wish. If their heart is pure and their intentions genuine, it's none of my business and I say 'Good on them' for perpetuating the memory of a dear departed one that has served their country honourably and been willing to step up to the plate when so many others weren't.
> 
> Let them relish in their pride, for their departed and loved Serviceperson, one day a year, without a bunch of meddaling busybodies to ruin the memory for them and, probably, keep them away from the services, totally soured from the experience, from that day on.



This is the the best post of this whole thread.  I wholeheartedly agree 100% with RG.

Some people must get off of their stuffy views of the world, and realize that there are more people with good intention, than there is those with nefarious ones.

dileas

tess


----------



## SeaKingTacco

So how then would you like to deal with the poser who shows up at the Legion, rack full of medals that he bought on the interweb, claiming to have been in every battle from Vimy to Panjwi?

Do you enforce the law only when you don't have a soft spot for someone?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> So how then would you like to deal with the poser who shows up at the Legion, rack full of medals that he bought on the interweb, claiming to have been in every battle from Vi my to Panic?
> 
> Do you enforce the law only when you don't have a soft spot for someone?



Are you that ignorant of our missions that you could not question him, out him and degrade him? Our military isn't that big, that most of us don't know someone who hasn't 'been there'. Our missions are not that complicated. There are a ton of questions, from arms, vehicles and other equipment to uniforms and chains of command, that trip up posers. Most times the fact that they know they don't have the answers are enough to put them off doing it again.

You'll never be able to stop every Walt. That's not what this is about, 

Letting families honour their kin is what it's about. Having pride in what they did and accomplished is what it's about. Letting them grieve and heal is what it's about. Letting the survivors boast that they had a hero in their family is what it's about.

Catching the 1 in 100,000 poser, who takes this away and makes it a mockery, is NOT what this is about

Pretty easy to gather that 10 year old girl as, a poser, wasn't. She knew everywhere her granddad had been and what his medals were for 

She was also under no illusion why we held a Remembrance Day or what significance her Grandfather played in it.

She wore his medals proudly, without malice or ulterior motive.

You can't put an age restriction on that.

Be a tough guy and tell her to take them off.

If I'm there, I'll politely take you aside, out of ears reach, and tell you you're an asshole.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Well said once again Recce.


----------



## the 48th regulator

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Well said once again Recce.



I second that!

dileas

tess


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Recce guy,

So the middle-aged walt can't wear medals that aren't his, but the cute 10 year old can?  Are we deciding this base on: 

The age of the wearer?
The "cuteness" of the wearer?
The arbitrary decision of any group of former CF members who happens to notice a non-veteran wearing medals?

As you have probably gathered, I fall into the camp that says the current law is fine.


----------



## the 48th regulator

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Recce guy,
> 
> So the middle-aged walt can't wear medals that aren't his, but the cute 10 year old can?  Are we deciding this base on:
> 
> The age of the wearer?
> The "cuteness" of the wearer?
> The arbitrary decision of any group of former CF members who happens to notice a non-veteran wearing medals?
> 
> As you have probably gathered, I fall into the camp that says the current law is fine.




You are confusing the intent of both individuals.  The middle aged "Walt" in you example, is parading the medals as his own, and this is fraudulent.  Now, if the 10 year old girl walked into the local legion, orders a pint, and begins to tell war stories, then I would agree with you.

The intent of wearing medals, for the little girl, is to honour a loved one who earned them.  The Walt is in no way honouring anyone, but is committing fraud, claiming the medals as his own.

Stopping people from honouring those who served, to catch a few walts is akin to closing down banks completely, to stop bank robbers.

dileas

tess


----------



## SeaKingTacco

But, in law, there would be no difference.

My question stands: who gets to divine the intent of the wearer?


----------



## the 48th regulator

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> But, in law, there would be no difference.
> 
> My question stands: who gets to divine the intent of the wearer?



The same way as you would to identify which person is withdrawing money from his account through  the bank teller, and which one was handing a note telling the teller that he has a gun and wants her money.

Situations dictate.  And if you are so inclined, ask the supposed walt, whether he is middle aged or she is a cute 10 year old about the medals they are wearing.  We don't have to always go to extremes to calm our fears of evil Walt Hordes, and call in the local constabulary.

dileas

tess


----------



## cupper

A deaf, dumb and blind man can divine the intent of the wear simply by asking the question, "Why are you wearing those medals?"

Clearly the 10 year old is going to say something to the effect of "To honour my Grandfather".

The Walt is going to start spouting some line of BS, if he even tries to come up with an answer.


----------



## Journeyman

cupper said:
			
		

> Clearly the 10 year old is going to say something to the effect of "To honour my Grandfather".


With the next question being, "and do you know what 'honouring' even means, or is this something your mommy thought would be cool, so that you both could garner attention within this current 'support the troops' moment?"


That's rhetorical, by the way, it being obvious that the key posters here have their minds made up, and no points will convince otherwise.


----------



## jollyjacktar

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> But, in law, there would be no difference.
> 
> My question stands: who gets to divine the intent of the wearer?



Two things.  The law is a wise man's guide and a fools bible.  And, as Dickens wrote, "The law is an Ass".


----------



## the 48th regulator

Journeyman said:
			
		

> With the next question being, "and do you know what 'honouring' even means, or is this something your mommy thought would be cool, so that you both could garner attention within this current 'support the troops' moment?"
> 
> 
> That's rhetorical, by the way, it being obvious that the key posters here have their minds made up, and no points will convince otherwise.




And with that post, I will borrow from Dickens and say that I shall retire to Bedlham....

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> The same way as you would to identify which person is withdrawing money from his account through  the bank teller, and which one was handing a note telling the teller that he has a gun and wants her money.



Unless he is unable to speak due to a medical problem or injury, in which case you only see a man with a note standing silently for the teller to action it.  Unless his actions are clear indications of wrongdoing, it's only a guess either way.

I think the main point here is that it's an emotional and very complex matter. With the current law we expect that everyone with medals, on either side of their chest, is wearing only their own and we think we can then identify Walts by those who fail to match our image of who should be wearing what. That being the case, it is still very possible to create embarrassing situations for all involved by falsely calling someone out that you think is wearing inappropriate medals. Or for a Walt to escape detection by behaving as might be expected for such a medal recipient.

Alternatively, if the law were to be changed, some might imagine the situation to become even more complex. But does it really? Is anyone here ready to claim that some 10-year-old girl, or 40-year-old man, wearing a pair or trio of First World War medals, or a group of Second World War medals, on their right breast is falsely claiming to be a soldier of the CEF or CASF, respectively? That certainly should not be the first impression, if they are worn in accordance with potential memorial guidelines for wear that are distinctive AND the observer knows what the medals are to begin with. Guidelines for wear COULD require that they be mounted, for example, with a one centimeter black ribbon across the ribbons of the group, to denote they are being worn solely as a commemorative grouping.

Neither approach lessens the possibility that some will wear medals for the purpose of deceiving others.

No matter what we see in the future, I advocate primarily for more education into what medals might be seen on Remembrance day (regardless of who is wearing them according to the regulations of the day). With better education, we might also see reporters spending less time talking to RCL leadership with racks of Legion bling on the right, while completely missing that "old guy" in the crowd with a well-worn rack with a Military Medal on one end. (An unfortunate situation I once observed, in my opinion the first guy should have been falling over himself to make sure the reporter was talking to the second guy, whether or not he was a Legion member.)


----------



## Pusser

What I find interesting in all of this is why is it only medals that people want to wear in order to honour their ancestors?  My father was a distinguished academic with many more letters after his name than I will likely ever have.  Frankly, his achievements involved a lot more effort than I've ever put into getting any of my gongs.  Yet, I have never had the urge to honour him by wearing his academic robes (backwards? inside out?) at some event.  The same goes for his mortar board (tassle on the other side?).  Nor have I ever heard of anyone else wanting to honour a distinguished ancestor in this way.  So why, I ask again, do so many folks want to do this with medals?

Unfortunately, my gut feel is that they want to attract attention to themselves:  "I'm related to a veteran, so part of his achievements rub off on me?"  I see this is much akin to me telling folks that I played high school football with five guys who ended up in the CFL.  It's true and the implication is that if things had gone slightly differently, then I could have been a pro football player as well, which is probably not so true.

Society puts limits on decorum all the time.  This is why we are generally expected to wear clothes in our day to day activities, despite the fact that we generally don't throw folks in jail for not doing so.  I don't see the medal issue as any different.  I simply don't feel it's appropriate to wear medals you haven't earned.  The general public doesn't know enough about which medals are which and how they're supposed to be worn (left breast, right breast, forehead, etc) to be able to distinguish what's what.


----------



## jollyjacktar

So tell me Pusser.  Do you own any clothing that has any sort of markings on them?  A favorite sports team perhaps?  Or anything else that you have not personally participated in, been to or own?  If so, by your logic why the hell would you wear anything other than a plain shirt or sheet for that matter?  Surely you aren't craving attention or wanting your clothes to scream "look at me, look at me"?.  Other than your obviously Pusser uniform, life rather plain if you stick to your principals of no supporting anything.  Perhaps if we had a Remembrance Day for professors and academia you might feel moved to bring your Father's mortar to the ceremony if he had passed on and you were close to him.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I wanted to stay out of this, beyond my 2008 comment, but I now want to associate myself with Pusser's comment.

Yes, jollyjacktar I do have some golf shirts with my former Regiment's crest embroidered on them and I wear them with pride. While I _might_ fall into the category of those who _may_ have some reason to wear a parent's decorations and medals I have never felt an urge to do so.

As I said about three years ago, I, too, am happy with the rules as they are, but if enough people want to change them I can live with that, too; but until they are changed I see no need to make exceptions. Do I care if a seven year old boy or ten year old girl wears grandpa's medals? No. Do I approve? No. As Pusser said, we have rules, we have standards, we should obey them until, over time, they change.


----------



## jollyjacktar

ER, we all have opinions on things.  That's what make us individuals.  I am of the camp that as long as you are not trying to be a Walt but are wishing to commemorate a loved one who has passed there is no harm done.  I have my own medals and wear them when required/desired.  I am sure that my Sons don't give a damn about them and would not wish to wear them if I pass along.  But that's them.  They are in your and Pusser's camp and it's their right.  I am not a hockey fan, would not wear a Montreal jersey (or any other team) if you paid me.  But I can understand why someone would want to, and it does not get under my skin that they do.  I suppose it's a good thing that being a sports fan is not illegal.  It just a shame that it is illegal for Widows and Children/Grandchildren of departed Veterans  to wear their pride for what it is in this country.  Unlike places like the UK.


----------



## cupper

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I ... would not wear a Montreal jersey ... if you paid me.



 :goodpost:   ;D

Seriously though, I don't see the comparison. In the case of sports jerseys, the teams / leagues are actually encouraging fans to purchase and wear them as a show of support for the team (or generate revenues depending on how much of a cynical outlook you have).


----------



## cupper

cupper said:
			
		

> Seriously though, I don't see the comparison. In the case of sports jerseys, the teams / leagues are actually encouraging fans to purchase and wear them as a show of support for the team (or generate revenues depending on how much of a cynical outlook you have).



 :nevermind: I was going somewhere with that, by my train of thought got derailed. If I get it back, I'll update. :sorry:


----------



## Pusser

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> So tell me Pusser.  Do you own any clothing that has any sort of markings on them?  A favorite sports team perhaps?  Or anything else that you have not personally participated in, been to or own?  If so, by your logic why the hell would you wear anything other than a plain shirt or sheet for that matter?  Surely you aren't craving attention or wanting your clothes to scream "look at me, look at me"?.  Other than your obviously Pusser uniform, life rather plain if you stick to your principals of no supporting anything.  Perhaps if we had a Remembrance Day for professors and academia you might feel moved to bring your Father's mortar to the ceremony if he had passed on and you were close to him.



Actually, I have many golf shirts, jackets, sweatshirts, T-shirts etc, that have logos or crests on them.  However, all the sports ones are for teams that I have either played for or coached.  The military ones are for units with which I have served or worked.  In fact, my wife says I have too many and I need to get rid of some.   ;D  The only ones with which I do not have a strong connection belong to my collection of Cows (TM) T-shirts.  My only association with whimsical cows is that I like their ice cream.

There is no need to get pi$$y about this.  All I'm saying is that I don't understand why people want to wear their ancestors medals, but don't seem to want to honour their ancestors for other things in a similar manner.  It's interesting to note that this is a relatively new phenomenon.  Let's not forget that veterans and serving military personnel were ignored and even scorned in this country for many years.  Where were the descendants wanting to wear their ancestors' medals then?  Did they not honour them before?  Now that it's cool to be military, I can't help but think that some folks are trying to live vicariously through their ancestors. I'm not about to go around crushing the spirit of ten year old girls or interrogating anyone with suspicious racks, but that doesn't mean I have to approve of the practice either (and frankly, I think the Brits and the Aussies have it wrong on this issue).  I'm happy with the way things are, although I think making it a criminal offence is a bit much.


----------



## Journeyman

Pusser said:
			
		

> Yet, I have never had the urge to honour him by wearing his academic robes


It's surely one of the signs of the impending apocalypse that I agree with Pusser.   :-[



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Do you own any clothing that has any sort of markings on them?  A favorite sports team perhaps?


If you'd wished to make a logical connection, rather than _reductio ad absurdum_, your analogy would have him wearing a Stanley Cup ring rather than simply a hockey team's t-shirt.



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> .... very complex matter.


Only if one insists on making it one, otherwise it reduces to "if you didn't earn it, you don't wear it"; hardly complex in my mind.



However, please continue...

                :argument:


----------



## Pusser

Journeyman said:
			
		

> It's surely one of the signs of the impending apocalypse that I agree with Pusser.   :-[



Now now.  No need for a sad smiley(?).  Both greater and lesser men than you have been known to agree with me.   ;D


----------



## wildman0101

No. PERIOD. Under the criminal code of  Canada you can be charged for this. If you want that code 
changed do what you have to to get it changed. Those medal's were earned through blood, sweat
and many many tear's. No disrespect to the people/person's,,family who would. What would people
think if I wore the 13 medal's my grandfather  earned during the Boer war,1st world war,,,2nd world 
war If Iwore them... They would get the impression I earned them which would be disrespectful. 
Shadowbox come's to mind. Last Nov 11 I seen a lil lad wearing a miniature 3 belonging to his grand-
father... Looked cute and nice BUT. So you can rag on me all you want but No. Would you like someone 
else wearing your medal's giving the impresision that they were the recipient of said medal's.
Just my thought's. Rant Off. Cheer's and best regard's... Scoty B... See you on parade.


----------



## ModlrMike

Do I support the current approach? Yes - because I believe in the rule of law. Do I think that it could/should be changed? Yes - there's enough specific stipulations that could be applied to keep things honest ie: mounted with a black ribbon etc. There will always be enough vigilant vets to keep the Walts at bay.

We have to bear in mind that the reason for the law no longer exists, and that change to meet new circumstances should be considered. Until these changes are made, I will continue to accept the current approach while recognizing that it is flawed.


----------



## Journeyman

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> ...the reason for the law no longer exists...


 Could you expand on this?


----------



## ModlrMike

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Could you expand on this?



The law as it stands was introduced to counter the large numbers of fraudulent benefit applications following WW1. Given the level of record keeping today versus then, this law can withstand modification without dilution.


----------



## Journeyman

Thanks. Yet one more thing I didn't know before.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

I wanted to say  I dislike t shirts with logos, I dislike sport t shirt, uniform shirts with team logos etc.  If you want me to wear a logo pay  me to wear it.

 I do not see how this is the same as wearing some one else medals out of respect or a private way of remembering a familiy  member. I have my  grand father's medals WW II vet, North Africa Star 2nd Clasp, Burma Star, I forget his other star  CD with Clasp,   and served till he retired in 1969 with various UN operation medals,  I have my  great grandfather's medals from WW I and WW II,  and his only  sons medals ( so great  uncle) who died in a training flgiht in a bomber over Scotland ( buried near RAF Kincloss). Out of respect for them I would never consider putting on their medals and parading around any  day  let alone 11th November. Their medals are in the boxes they were awarded in and stored. Some day  I want to do a shadow box to honour my  mom's family and their military life. I want to get a hold of the other other great  grandfather 's medal and put his Military  Medal on display .
Honour your loved one memories by  displaying the medals in a place of honour not on your person. They  deserve that, not to be used to draw attention to yourself.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The law as it stands was introduced to counter the large numbers of fraudulent benefit applications following WW1. Given the level of record keeping today versus then, this law can withstand modification without dilution.


How would that work?  Do they show up and say "yep, this is my medal"?


----------



## Michael OLeary

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> How would that work?  Do they show up and say "yep, this is my medal"?



In an era where checking someone's background was neither simple nor quick, and a man was taken at his word, it was easy for the dishonorable to misrepresent themselves as returned soldiers. They might choose to do this if an employer was offering new jobs to returned soldiers or to get undeserved veterans' benefits. Even the naming on medals could be explained as having served under a false name or lost medals having been replaced by a pair acquired from a pawnbroker, etc. The law also extended to the lapel pin War Service Badges. 

Here is the reverse of a Class A War Service Badge.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Thanks. Yet one more thing I didn't know before.



What he said, thanks.


----------



## ModlrMike

Context is a wonderful thing. The first few posts, and articles leave the impression that the Government is being mean spirited. Once you understand the rationale, the situation becomes more clear. I still maintain however that the law needs modernization. I don't support scrapping it altogether. That would just encourage the Walts as there would be no legal method of dealing with the chronics. Perhaps some contact with my MP is in order.


----------



## Blackadder1916

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Context is a wonderful thing. The first few posts, and articles leave the impression that the Government is being mean spirited. Once you understand the rationale, the situation becomes more clear. I still maintain however that the law needs modernization. I don't support scrapping it altogether. That would just encourage the Walts as there would be no legal method of dealing with the chronics. Perhaps some contact with my MP is in order.



Agree.

For many, this issue seems to fit into a (perhaps very Canadian) mindset of "if it is not specifically permitted, then it is prohibited".  There has been reference to this practice being common (and allowed) in other Commonwealth countries (specifically United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand), with the assumption that their legislation permits it.  That would not be entirely correct.  Only one of those countries (Australia) permits the practice of wearing an ancestor's medal by the "letter of the law".  The UK and NZ is like Canada in that their laws specifically limit the wear of medals to only those who were awarded them, but they "accept" the custom of wearing an ancestor's medals on the right breast on special days of remembrance.

I went into more detail in a previous post on this thread about three years ago.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25589/post-790796.html#msg790796


----------



## PMedMoe

Veterans groups differ on law banning wearing of war medals

With Remembrance Day on the horizon, Canadians are looking to express appreciation for the country’s veterans, perhaps hoping to don war medals earned by their deceased relatives.

But last week, many Canadians learned that a little-known law actually forbids that gesture of respect and commemoration.

Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits “the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.”

Jeff Rose-Martland, executive director of the Canadian veterans group Our Duty, says his constituency generally opposes the idea of people wearing the medal of a living veteran.

“But when it comes to deceased veterans, it’s been pretty universal, amongst the veterans I’ve spoken with, that yes, a family member should be able to wear them to show remembrance and respect,” he says.

The law came to light after Our Duty announced a campaign called Veterans Among Us, which sought to raise awareness of Canada’s 800,000 veterans.

While fielding questions about war medals, Our Duty learned of the 91-year-old statute prohibiting someone else from wearing of medals received by living or dead veterans. The organization promptly issued a release advising its constituents not to wear the medals of family members, as the act would be a criminal offence.

Introduced in 1920, the statute was largely intended to deter people from impersonating returning war veterans, who were entitled to benefits and incentives (like jobs) in the years after service. The statute does not set out a specific penalty, but for summary conviction offences, the penalty is a maximum of six months imprisonment or a $5,000 fine or both.

More at link


----------



## Arctic Acorn

If the member was deceased and the medals were worn on the right side, I'm not sure where I see the harm with this. As the article states below, the UK and Australia practice this (while maintaining the wearing of unearned decorations on the left side as a criminal offence). 

The way I see it, my medals weren't earned by me alone. There are a whole group of people (some of whom will never wear a uniform) that are an integral part of my military career, friends and family both. Once I'm dead and gone, will my ghost be offended by a relative wearing my gongs to honour my memory? Nope, though there are a few of the more distant/crazier ones I wouldn't want to see have them, I admit. 

I think the Brits and Aussies have struck a good balance, and I don't see why we can't do the same thing.


From: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/31/f-war-medals.html?cmp=rss

With Remembrance Day on the horizon, Canadians are looking to express appreciation for the country’s veterans, perhaps hoping to don war medals earned by their deceased relatives.

But last week, many Canadians learned that a little-known law actually forbids that gesture of respect and commemoration.

Article 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada prohibits “the wearing of orders, decorations and medals by anyone other than the individual who was awarded the honour.”

Jeff Rose-Martland, executive director of the Canadian veterans group Our Duty, says his constituency generally opposes the idea of people wearing the medal of a living veteran.

“But when it comes to deceased veterans, it’s been pretty universal, amongst the veterans I’ve spoken with, that yes, a family member should be able to wear them to show remembrance and respect,” he says.

The law came to light after Our Duty announced a campaign called Veterans Among Us, which sought to raise awareness of Canada’s 800,000 veterans.

While fielding questions about war medals, Our Duty learned of the 91-year-old statute prohibiting someone else from wearing of medals received by living or dead veterans. The organization promptly issued a release advising its constituents not to wear the medals of family members, as the act would be a criminal offence.

Introduced in 1920, the statute was largely intended to deter people from impersonating returning war veterans, who were entitled to benefits and incentives (like jobs) in the years after service. The statute does not set out a specific penalty, but for summary conviction offences, the penalty is a maximum of six months imprisonment or a $5,000 fine or both.

Commonwealth nations like Great Britain and Australia have similar restrictions on wearing the medals of a living veteran — the consequences are fines or up to six months in jail. But both countries relax the law if the veteran is deceased, with the proviso that relatives wear the medals on the right side of the body; this distinguishes them from the original soldier, who would have worn medals on the left.

“That shows that they’re not your medals,” says Rose-Martland. “You’re wearing them on behalf of somebody else.”

Our Duty would like to have the Canadian law amended. Over the last few decades, there have been backbench motions to change the statute, but they were quickly voted down.

Rose-Martland says there is resistance from groups like the Royal Canadian Legion, Canada’s largest veterans group, which has more than 500,000 members.

The legion denies this.

“I don’t know where somebody got the idea that we’re against [people wearing their relatives’ war medals] – all we’re doing is obeying the law,” says Bob Butt, director of communications for the Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion.

“Until we get a resolution through the [legion’s internal] resolution process that passes dominion convention, the legion is not mandated to do anything about the law. Until we’re mandated, we don’t take any action.”

The number of people who are actually prosecuted for this offence is exceedingly low.

According to Justice Canada, there were no charges for 2009-10, the last year for which it has statistical data. In 2008-09, there were four charges, all of which were eventually stayed or withdrawn; in 2007-08, there were eight charges, two of which led to convictions and six either stayed or withdrawn.

“Although it is unlikely a widow would be charged with an offence for wearing her late husband’s medals, it is up to provincial Crowns to make decisions about charges,” Carole Saindon, a media relations officer at the Canadian Department of Justice, said in an email. “Such determinations require consideration of whether this would be in the public interest.”

Rose-Martland says he doesn’t personally know of anyone who has been punished for this offence, but he has heard from families that have been reprimanded by other veterans.

“I have spoken to civilians who have worn the medals at remembrance ceremonies and so on, and they’ve gotten grief from people present who were legion members, and were told basically to take [the medals] off or complaints would be filed with the nearest police force,” he says.

Ultimately, Rose-Martland is concerned that this old law stands in the way of giving veterans their proper due.

“We’re coming up on a hundred years past the end of World War I. We don’t have any Great War veterans left, the World War II veterans are passing, and within a few years we’re going to have a large amount of medals that were awarded to Canadians, including the Victoria Cross, that no one can display,” he says.

“When the family members can’t display them, they sit in people’s houses, and nobody gets to see them and gets to learn that aspect of our history.”


----------



## The Bread Guy

There's already a couple of threads going on this one, so I'll be merging them all over at "Military History" shortly.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Arctic Acorn

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> There's already a couple of threads going on this one, so I'll be merging them all over at "Military History" shortly.
> 
> *Milnet.ca Staff*



Thanks for merging my post in with the others. I didn't see that Moe posted the same article at about the same time I did. 

I'll check more closely before I post next time. 

Cheers!


----------



## The Bread Guy

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> Thanks for merging my post in with the others. I didn't see that Moe posted the same article at about the same time I did.
> 
> I'll check more closely before I post next time.
> 
> Cheers!


No worries - there was more than one thread brought together here.


----------



## wildman0101

Shadow Box come's to mind. Cheer's Scoty B
Until the law is changed I would have no prob's 
with someome wear said relative's Medal's on 
the right... Appropraitly displayed.


----------



## NavyShooter

Am I allowed to revive this one...?

A recent post has been made on a Blog associated to a Major newspaper in Ottawa and one of the Military Alumni groups I am a member of on Facebook seems to be stirring over the issue...

Not sure if I'm allowed to link in or quote from that source here or not....but there seems to be some rather vitrolic comments and thoughts on this matter.  

I'm of the "NAY" side myself.


----------



## Edward Campbell

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Am I allowed to revive this one...?
> 
> A recent post has been made on a Blog associated to a Major newspaper in Ottawa and one of the Military Alumni groups I am a member of on Facebook seems to be stirring over the issue...
> 
> Not sure if I'm allowed to link in or quote from that source here or not....but there seems to be some rather vitrolic comments and thoughts on this matter.
> 
> I'm of the "NAY" side myself.




There is a similar debate going on, more or less under the radar, re: the Memorial Cross.

The War Amps are fighting the government over the (inadequate) _Last Post Fund_ - all well and good, that. But part of their "open letter" to Prime Minister Harper goes a step further and says, _"it is extremely difficult to advise widows of deceased war amputees that not only has their claim for benefits under the Last Post Fund regulations been turned down, but also that they will not be receiving the Memorial Cross ... there are a number of widows within The War Amputations of Canada who find it impossible to understand how it is that certain widows of the Association have received the Memorial Cross when others have not been so recognized."_

The answer to the War Amps "difficulty" can be found in the very definition of the memorial Cross: _"The Memorial Cross is an award that has been granted since 1919 to the loved ones of Canadian armed forces personnel who died in service or whose death was attributed to their service."_ In other words if veteran A, who was wounded, dies, years later, because of those wounds then his widow gets a Memorial Cross, but if veteran B, who was even more grievously wounded, dies in, say, a car accident or of other causes not related to his or her wound then there is no Memorial Cross for the widow. It is a fair, just system.


----------



## Lincoln

I am the daughter of a World War 2 veteran who has been campaigning for six years to help families of deceased veterans and veterans who have made it quite clear how they want to be remembered after they die. The veterans I have spoke to over the last six years want their families to be able to display(for once a year on Remembrance Day) the war medals on the right side of the chest, with a photo and name of the soldier who earned the medals.

The families in Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand are permitted to display the medals on the right chest, why not Canada. My dad landed on Juno Beach on D-Day and he risked his life for our freedom along with all his other comrads, thousands of those soldiers didn't make it back. My father survived this ordeal but not without injuries. My father never wanted to have his medals hanging on a wall or sitting on a shelf collecting dust. My father wanted his medals to have a significant purpose after he passed away and I am trying to make that purpose a reality. I have many letters from veterans, families of deceased veterans and others who support this cause. Even the Royal Canadian Legion Defence and Security committee wrote up recommendations to suggest the families should be allowed to display the medals on the right chest during Remembrance Day Ceremonies to be able to honor the soldiers last wishes that want this tradition on Remembrance Day.

As it stands section 419 of the criminal code states that only those who earned the medals can wear the medals. However, there is a clause in section 419 that states without lawful excuse. A criminal lawyer has informed me that he believes that as a daughter of a veteran who inherited my fathers medals that I do have lawful excuse to DISPLAY THOSE MEDALS IN THE MANNER MY FATHER WOULD WANT ME TO ON REMEMBRANCE DAY ON MY RIGHT CHEST WITH my fathers name AND HIS PHOTO. There is not confusion as to who earned the medals and who is displaying them with pride on the right chest so the soldier is never forgotten.

The families are not trying to impersonate a veteran in this manner, but honor our veterans so they are never forgotten. Please take the word WEAR out of this issue. We do not want to wear the medal, we want to DISPLAY THEM ON OUR RIGHT CHEST, WITH A PHOTO AND NAME OF OUR SOLDIER ON REMEMBRANCE DAY.

To understand my mission more clearly please google the following newspaper articles, one written by the late Peter Worthington a World War 2 veteran and a Korean veteran. Peters father was the founder of armored corps.

Please google "Military Medals Span Generations" by Peter Worthington

Please google, "Wearing a relatives's military medals should be allowed" by David Haas

David is also a veteran and a retired criminal lawyer who believes in my cause and the necessity to treasure those medals before they disappear from site along with the memories that go with these medals regarding the soldier who earned them.

There are war medals all over the internet sites for sale, they are in pawn shops and even thrown in the garbage like yesterdays news. I want the families to be able to have a tradition like they do in Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand, so that the families will treasure the medals and them back to the Remembrance Day Ceremonies from generation to generation so our soldiers will never be forgotten.

What better way to remember our soldier then to display his/her medal on our right chest with a photo and name of the soldier who earned the medal. Look into the eyes of the soldiers who gave you your freedom and I will tell you about each and every medal they earned and what those medals stand for. Those veterans who wish to keep their medals on the wall or on a shelf already have their last wishes before they die. However, the veterans who want their families to display the medals on the right chest at Remembrance Day Ceremonies are waiting for section 419 to be clarified regarding "lawful excuse" so they have their last wishes granted before they die as well. 

I would like to hear what you think after you read the newspaper articles I have asked you to please google in order to understand what my mission is all about. I have been on radio shows, CBC National News and plenty of newspapers each and every Remembrance to try to help the veterans and families who agree with this tradition. I will not give up my mission until mission accomplished. 

                        Proud Daughter of a World War 2 Veteran


----------



## Occam

Where do you draw the line?  If you allow people to "display" (and I disagree with your wear/display semantics) their parent's medals, then what's to stop the next person from wanting to wear their parent's and grandparent's medals?  Or three generations worth of medals?  And so on, until people are standing there on Remembrance Day with 25 lbs of gongs hanging off their chest and we have to prop them up with scaffolding?

No.  Medals are an honour bestowed on a single recipient.  I wouldn't dare think of wearing my father's medals, although I'm not opposed to carrying them in a small shadow box with a photograph of him, and when the time is right my son will be told the same thing with regard to what I expect of my medals.

 :2c:


----------



## eliminator

Personally, I don't understand all the obsession to wear a family members medals on 11 Nov. I have several family members that have served in a variety of conflicts throughout history. Each one's medals, badges, and photo is framed and displayed proudly in my home. I personally honour these men each day and are proud to share their history with friends and family. I'm not sure if parading around on 11 nov with their medals flapping around on my right side of my chest would add to preserving their memory. I've been to ANZAC day celebrations, and from my experience, the majority of those wearing family medals knew very little of what the recipient did, or ever what units they served in. In my opinion, these individuals (certainly not all of them) were parading around with the medals for their own self gratification.

A better investment to preserving the memory of a family member's service would be to volunteer to help out with a poppy  campaign or help out at a local Legion or other veterans group.


----------



## Loachman

I agree.

I have my grandfather's medals from WWI. I would never even consider wearing them, as I did not earn them.

I would not be happy if any of my children decided to wear my very modest collection, for the same reason.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I am also of the belief only the person who earns the medals should wear them.  

Why not have the medals, badges, etc mounted in a nice display case/shadow box and hold that?  Doesn't it serve the same purpose?


----------



## Northalbertan

My wife has her Uncles medals, he fell in Normandy.  We have them in a shadow box along with a photo.  We display them on a wall in my study.  I believe this honors his sacrifice.  I too am one who believes that only the individual who earned them should wear them.  

If you choose to bring them with you to honor a veterans memory on Remembrance Day that would be fine.  Wear them?  No.

NorthAlbertan


----------



## Aerobicrunner

No one should be able to wear medals awarded to another person period.  I am one of those individuals who will print out the regulations and excerpt from the CCC and post them in the messes in my organization so that individiuals will know that they are not authorized to wear a relatives medals.  The shadow box is a great idea.
I have also seen individuals in the messes and Legions display the photograph(s) and their relatives medals using miniature tripods that can be purchased at Michaels.  This is another way of honouring the relatives who served and it allows individuals to sit down and talk about their family member/veteran.


----------



## Jacky Tar

Ditto. The Criminal Code of Canada makes it an offense; it's also a service offense, and it's not appropriate. There've been some excellent suggestions on how to display medals in a suitable respectful manner to honor the person who received them. I see kids wearing medals earned by a now-deceased relative and I confess the urge is strong to find their parent(s) and throttle them. What's wrong with, as has been suggested, a shadow box with a photo of the person above their medals, being carried by a relative?


----------



## Tank Troll

Concur. I have several of my Uncle's sets of medals in shadow boxes with their pictures and one day my Dad's medals and mine will also go on the wall. I've stated to my family where I stand on this matter and they understand the one that earns the medals wears the medals not the one that inherits them.


----------



## Journeyman

Lincoln said:
			
		

> I would like to hear what you think after you read the newspaper articles....


The articles haven't changed my views.  I understand your feelings, but continue to agree with the overwhelming majority here -- you didn't earn them, you don't wear them.  Sometimes things can be pretty straight forward that way.

Sorry.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Are members of the Royal Canadian Legion allowed to buy and wear medals?


----------



## X Royal

Personally I'm not for it either.
Can you imagine how full the right chest of some of those who have never served would get!
Adding ancestors medals on top of all those Legion medals on the right side. :facepalm:
Sad thing is due to lack of knowledge many of the public think all those medals on the right side mean that the wearer has served their country with more distinction than someone with only one or a few on the left side.
Listening to the comments of the general public at a Remembrance service confirmed this to me.


----------



## X Royal

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Are members of the Royal Canadian Legion allowed to buy and wear medals?


Not sure if there actually bought or awarded for positions held, years of service ect.
But yes they do wear medals on their right chest. Some have quite a few of those.
The ANAF Veterans also have a similar program.


----------



## mariomike

Lincoln said:
			
		

> I am the daughter of a World War 2 veteran who has been campaigning for six years to help families of deceased veterans and veterans who have made it quite clear how they want to be remembered after they die.



More discussion here.

"wearing deceased father's medals from WWII on Remembrance Day":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52992.0/nowap.html


----------



## Loachman

Thanks, mariomike. I've merged it into this thread. Look back in November 2006.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Are members of the Royal Canadian Legion allowed to buy and wear medals?



Hmmm.  That's what I had to do in Cubs/Scouts with my badges and sash.   :blotto:


----------



## Good2Golf

I like the idea of a shadow box that can also have a picture and perhaps a small history of the ancestor's service.  

Even if I didn't have my own medals, I would never think of wearing either of my grandfathers' medals...both of which, as their only serving grandson, have.

Regards
G2G


----------



## Danjanou

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Are members of the Royal Canadian Legion allowed to buy and wear medals?



No 

RCL members either former/retired military or Associate/Affiliate members may be awarded medals for service either Legion medals ( the ones worn on the right side) and/or Medals awarded by the Crown/Government such as the QDJM. They certainly cannot go out and buy something and tack it onto their Blazer.


----------



## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> They certainly cannot go out and buy something and tack it onto their Blazer.


Even the Legion has more class than the Frontiersmen.


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Even the Legion has more class than the Frontiersmen.



Barely  ;D


----------



## AirDet

I'm sure many here have pointed out the fact that it is illegal to wear a medal to which you aren't entitled.

Having said that, when my grandfather was getting on in years, I made a point of taking him with me to various military parades with him wearing his WWII medals. It became our thing. After he died I started carrying his medals in the tunic pocket behind my medals. He was proud of his service and I was proud of him. 

Without openly or illegally wearing his honours I'm able to pay my private and personal respect to him and the family legacy of service he started.

It's great to be proud of what they did but by wearing their awards as if they were earned by you you're disrespecting them.

If you must then carry them privately against your heart as I do.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Frankly I think being able to wear their families medals on the rightside on such events like Nov. 11th is fine and gives people a chance to talk about their loved ones. One option would be a requirement to have a small name plate "Awarded to XXXXXX 1939-1945" just above them.

The people who are going to claim the medals are ones they got, are going to play games no matter what you do. Lets not punish people who's only crime is pride in what their family members did.


----------



## Danjanou

Colin I see your point and that is the custom in both the UK  and Australia. However it ain't the custom here, and as noted it's against the law.   Should that change and we adopt something similar to the Aussies or Brits I don't think I would have an issue with that either. 

AirDet excellent idea. I'm hoping to make a pilgrimage to Vimy in 2017. I would like to take my Grandfather's WW1 medals with me and would consider doing the same, carrying them in my blazer pocket (or pinned inside) behind my own medals. It's a private and I think a dignified way of letting "part" of  him  be there again.


----------



## AirDet

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I'm hoping to make a pilgrimage to Vimy in 2017. I would like to take my Grandfather's WW1 medals with me and would consider doing the same, carrying them in my blazer pocket (or pinned inside) behind my own medals. It's a private and I think a dignified way of letting "part" of  him  be there again.



Like I said, it's a great way to privately pay tribute/respect. You'll find you stand little taller despite the heavier tunic.


----------



## Rifleman62

I don't know if this is the correct forum or not. This may be of interest.

http://wearingyourmedalswrong.blogspot.ca/search?updated-min=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2014-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=4

Wearing Your Medals Wrong

A blog about Canadians who habitually wear their orders, decorations and medals incorrectly.


----------



## Danjanou

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> I don't know if this is the correct forum or not. This may be of interest.
> 
> http://wearingyourmedalswrong.blogspot.ca/search?updated-min=2013-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2014-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=4
> 
> Wearing Your Medals Wrong
> 
> A blog about Canadians who habitually wear their orders, decorations and medals incorrectly.



One my favourites and usually worth a chuckle.  ;D


----------



## x_para76

First of all in response to Wes's comment that it may be a Pommie thing that prevents Canadian's from wearing their ancestor's medals I'm afraid that isn't the case. In the U.K you're permitted to wear a family member's medals so long as they're worn on the right hand side. 

Furthermore in response to the nae Sayers on here regarding wearing a family members medals you have your opinion and your entitled to it but your full of shit! If someone chooses to wear a deceased family members medals on rememberance day and they're worn on the right hand side as they should be then they've committed no fowl. By wearing them on the right hand side they're not misrepresenting them self as having earned them and have instantly communicated to anyone observing them that they're wearing a family member's medals. We're the only country in the commonwealth where this would be considered by anyone to be a transgression, and it's fucking ridiculous. It should not be frowned upon so long as people wear them on the correct side, on rememberance day, and the person wearing them doesn't misrepresent them self as having earned them.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Mike! We really, really need a :yawn: _smiley_.  In the interim: :not-again: and  :ignore:


----------



## George Wallace

x_para76 said:
			
		

> Furthermore in response to the nae Sayers on here regarding wearing a family members medals you have your opinion and your entitled to it but your full of shit! If someone chooses to wear a deceased family members medals on rememberance day and they're worn on the right hand side as they should be then they've committed no fowl. By wearing them on the right hand side they're not misrepresenting them self as having earned them and have instantly communicated to anyone observing them that they're wearing a family member's medals. We're the only country in the commonwealth where this would be considered by anyone to be a transgression, and it's fucking ridiculous. It should not be frowned upon so long as people wear them on the correct side, on rememberance day, and the person wearing them doesn't misrepresent them self as having earned them.



And what makes you so friggin correct in your opinions?  You may be surprised to find that you are WRONG.


Read: Guide for Wearing Orders, Decorations and Medals, page 9, para 1



> Wearing of Insignia by Unauthorized Individuals
> 
> Only the legitimate recipient may wear the insignia of an order, decoration or medal.  In addition, although the insignia of a deceased person may be retained by the family as part of its heritage or given to a recognized museum, no one can wear them in any manner or under any circumstances.


----------



## Journeyman

x_para76 said:
			
		

> We're the only country in the commonwealth where this would be considered by anyone to be a transgression


Then feel free to move to any other country and wear medals you never earned to your heart's content.  Otherwise, welcome to Canada; these are _our_ regulations.

But as stated by E.R.Campbell,   :boring:    and     :ignore:





> .....they've committed no fowl.


   :


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

If you want to change the law, get your MP to raise the issue or get elected and do a private members bill. Till then the Law says you cannot wear any medal not earned by the wearer, so follow the law and deal with it and wear your big boy pants or big girl pants and get over it.


----------



## eliminator

From the British Legion website, it appears that the practice of wearing family members medals in the UK is "officially incorrect" yet a common, unpunished act.

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/medals/medal-faqs#wearing

Can I wear medals belonging to members of my family?

The official position regarding wearing medals other than your own is that they should not be worn. However, it was generally accepted from soon after the Great War that widows of the fallen wore their late husband's medals on the right breast on suitable occasions.

More recently it seems to have become the custom for any family member to wear medals of deceased relations in this way, sometimes trying to give a complete family military history by wearing several groups. Although understandable it is officially incorrect, and when several groups are worn it does little for the dignity of the original owners.

The Legion takes a pragmatic view and our Ceremonial Rules state:

The official rules for wearing medals allow only official awards to be worn. Unofficial purchased medals and foreign medals which do not have the Sovereign's permission to be worn are not allowed. Standard Bearers, Parade Marshals and other officials on Legion duty are bound by this ruling and unofficial medals must not be worn when on Legion duty.The medals awarded to a deceased Service / ex-Service person may be worn on the right breast by a near relative (mother, father, sister, brother, wife, husband, daughter and son). Not more than one group should be worn by any individual.

One thing is certain, no action will be taken officially if anyone wears a relation's medals. In the Legion this practice is banned for Standard Bearers and parade officials and as stated above for other members.

Another option is to have the family medals framed so that they can be displayed the whole year round. These displays can include a photo, cap badge and name plate which makes it a very personal display for a family. If you are interested, the following companies offer this service:


----------



## George Wallace

Seriously?  Who cares what another nations allows or does not allow?  Let's just stick to Canadian applications.


----------



## x_para76

If you choose to wear a deceased relatives medals ie. if I chose to wear my paternal grandfather's ww2 medals on rememberance day and that day only, on the right hand side then I have in no way misrepresented myself. It's that misrepresentation that is the crime. As has been stated in earlier posts if there in no criminal intent then it's not a crime. Furthermore these comments about who cares what they do in Britain where do you think our military traditions came from? 

Finally, everyone here is entitled to their opinion. However if on rememberance day I choose to wear my grandfather's medals I challenge anyone to come have a go at me!


----------



## George Wallace

x_para76 said:
			
		

> If you choose to wear a deceased relatives medals ie. if I chose to wear my paternal grandfather's ww2 medals on rememberance day and that day only, on the right hand side then I have in no way misrepresented myself. It's that misrepresentation that is the crime. As has been stated in earlier posts if there in no criminal intent then it's not a crime. Furthermore these comments about who cares what they do in Britain where do you think our military traditions came from?
> 
> Finally, everyone here is entitled to their opinion. However if on rememberance day I choose to wear my grandfather's medals I challenge anyone to come have a go at me!



Not to be ignorant or anything, but you refuse to acknowledge that what you are doing is WRONG and against the regulations as laid out by the Government of Canada...That does not reflect to well on you.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

...and I guess none of us had ancestor's with medals.  



Or at least none of us are so insecure with ourselves that we need to parade them.


----------



## x_para76

No because this thread is so full of people concerned that people are committing a criminal offence if they wear their dead relative's medals on rememberance day. They continue to quote the criminal code which I'm sure only considers this act an offence for the purpose of people fraudulently representing the self  as something they are not. If for example you think that the widow of a deceased Afghanistan vet should be reprimanded for wear her fallen husbands's medals on rememberance day then you really are an uptight bastard and a typical example of everything that is wrong with the CF.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

x_para76 said:
			
		

> No because this thread is so full of people concerned that people are committing a criminal offence if they wear their dead relative's medals on rememberance day. They continue to quote the criminal code which I'm sure only considers this act an offence for the purpose of people fraudulently representing the self  as something they are not. If for example you think that the widow of a deceased Afghanistan vet should be reprimanded for wear her fallen husbands's medals on rememberance day then you really are an uptight bastard and a typical example of everything that is wrong with the CF.



You're treading dangerously close to the line and you won't be warned again.

Attack the argument not the person.

---Staff---


----------



## George Wallace

x_para76 said:
			
		

> No because this thread is so full of people concerned that people are committing a criminal offence if they wear their dead relative's medals on rememberance day. They continue to quote the criminal code which I'm sure only considers this act an offence for the purpose of people fraudulently representing the self  as something they are not. If for example you think that the widow of a deceased Afghanistan vet should be reprimanded for wear her fallen husbands's medals on rememberance day then you really are an uptight bastard and a typical example of everything that is wrong with the CF.



Your flaunting of Regulations does not say much for you as well....(How many times have I said that to you?)  Again, your opinion does not overrule the Criminal Code, nor regulations as laid out by the Government of Canada.  Your flaunting the rules does not make you right.  If we take it to the extreme and you thought that murder was right in your opinion, flaunting all the Laws of the land and Rules and Regulations therein, does that make you right and the rest of us wrong?  Of course not.  So get off your ego trip and accept the fact that YOU are WRONG.  You can wear YOUR medals, but those of a relative twice removed have other means of being displayed.


----------



## ModlrMike

x_para76 said:
			
		

> No because this thread is so full of people concerned that people are committing a criminal offence if they wear their dead relative's medals on rememberance day. They continue to quote the criminal code which I'm sure only considers this act an offence for the purpose of people fraudulently representing the self  as something they are not. If for example you think that the widow of a deceased Afghanistan vet should be reprimanded for wear her fallen husbands's medals on rememberance day then you really are an uptight ******* and a typical example of everything that is wrong with the CF.



Here's a thought... accept and follow the law as it currently is. Work to change it to something else if it's that important to you. The reasons for the existing statute are long passed, and technology and good record keeping would render benefits fraud exceptionally difficult today. Many of us would have no problem following the Aus or NZ protocol if that's where changes lead. 

We, or rather I do not think a vet's wife should be reprimanded for wearing her dead husband's medals on Remembrance Day. But her situation still doesn't put her in the right.


----------



## Good2Golf

> As has been stated in earlier posts if there in no criminal intent then it's not a crime.



:

Nice.  Convincing one's self that one is not committing a crime, by saying there is no criminal intent is rather disingenuous when one already knows that their actions contravene a criminal code.

Go ahead and wear your ancestor's medals on your right chest, but do so knowing that the Nation's laws, whether your agree with them or not, say you cannot...

Regards
G2G


----------



## x_para76

Well you've all convinced me how wrong I am in my thoughts regarding this topic. I have never intended to wear anyone else's medals other than my own. I did enjoy some of the personal attacks on my military service though. This rememberance day I would be happy to have a conversation with anyone about their long and storied military service.


----------



## Jarnhamar

There is a difference between thinking a rule is stupid  and thinking the rule you think is stupid should be ignored.

I would personally rather see a widow or parent or child display these medals on remembrance day than see the legions gong show they put on but that doesn't change the lawfulness of the rule.

Given the pipes and crown fiasco and what someone lobbying the government can do, your ire would be better spent trying to change this rule through the government than calling people on in an internet message forum.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Cleaned.

Stay on track and topic. Stop the attacks.


---Staff---


----------



## x_para76

I just find it hard to conceive that one would apply the CC to a widow wearing her dead husbands medals on rememberance day and on the right side, the same way they would apply it to someone wearing medals or a uniform that they have no right to wear for the purpose of personal gain or some other dishonest reason. 

There must be some grey area or latitude on this that wasn't taken into account when the law was written. The same way as there's leeway given on certain military regulations when operational conditions deem it necessary.


----------



## Michael OLeary

x_para76 said:
			
		

> I just find it hard to conceive that one would apply the CC to a widow wearing her dead husbands medals on rememberance day and on the right side, the same way they would apply it to someone wearing medals or a uniform that they have no right to wear for the purpose of personal gain or some other dishonest reason.
> 
> There must be some grey area or latitude on this that wasn't taken into account when the law was written. The same way as there's leeway given on certain military regulations when operational conditions deem it necessary.



There's no grey area, you're either following the letter of the law or you aren't. When someone disagrees with the law, or a military regulation, it provides them an opportunity to build their case and to use official channels to have it changed. No matter how much you may dislike it, that does not give you, or anyone else, a right to break it (whether or not it will be prosecuted).

In the UK the wearing of an ancestor's medals (or, more particularly, a deceased husband's or son's) on the right may have become an accepted if not officially supported practice. In Canada, this was unnecessary for those specific people you mention, because Canada instituted, and maintains, the silver Memorial Cross. This is an official emblem specifically presented in order that those members of a grieving family may have a visible symbol of their sacrifice to wear at appropriate occasions. For the families of those lost in Afghanistan, since they seem to be forming a particular point of your argument, the issue of three Memorial Crosses plus the new Memorial Ribbons means that the fallen soldier will be well commemorated by dedicated symbols worn by family members.

None of this, however, prevents you or anyone else from initiating a campaign to change the existing rules.


----------



## x_para76

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> There's no grey area, you're either following the letter of the law or you aren't. When someone disagrees with the law, or a military regulation, it provides them an opportunity to build their case and to use official channels to have it changed. No matter how much you may dislike it, that does not give you, or anyone else, a right to break it (whether or not it will be prosecuted).


----------



## x_para76

I wasn't aware that Canada had such a decoration that is awarded to a wife or parent of a fallen soldier. I can see how that would eliminate the need to wear a family member's medals. 

Thanks for the heads up!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

x_para76 said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that Canada had such a decoration that is awarded to a wife or parent of a fallen soldier. I can see how that would eliminate the need to wear a family member's medals.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up!



http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group09

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=MC


----------



## Towards_the_gap

x_para76 said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that Canada had such a decoration that is awarded to a wife or parent of a fallen soldier. I can see how that would eliminate the need to wear a family member's medals.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up!



You are in a PRES unit and have never heard of a memorial cross?


----------



## Michael OLeary

recceguy said:
			
		

> http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/cmdp/mainmenu/group09
> 
> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=MC



And the Memorial Ribbon:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=MemR



> Up to five (5) Memorial Ribbons will be issued to close loved-ones who were not in receipt of a Memorial Cross.


----------



## George Wallace

x_para76 said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that Canada had such a decoration that is awarded to a wife or parent of a fallen soldier. I can see how that would eliminate the need to wear a family member's medals.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up!



This form, along with your NOK and Emergency Notification forms, your MPPR, and other documents are all part of the annual AAG that your unit should be conducting when it stands up after the summer break.  It is all part of your Pers File that your unit should be maintaining.


----------



## chrisf

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> You are in a PRES unit and have never heard of a memorial cross?



I'd say if you canvassed reservists across Canada, less than 1/4 would know what a memorial cross was.


----------



## ballz

x_para76 said:
			
		

> I just find it hard to conceive that one would apply the CC to a widow wearing her dead husbands medals on rememberance day and on the right side, the same way they would apply it to someone wearing medals or a uniform that they have no right to wear for the purpose of personal gain or some other dishonest reason.
> 
> There must be some grey area or latitude on this that wasn't taken into account when the law was written. The same way as there's leeway given on certain military regulations when operational conditions deem it necessary.



If convicted, a judge would take into account mitigating and aggravating circumstances when handing down a sentence. I am guessing your example would never result in a formal charge being followed through all the way to a conviction, but if it did, I suspect a judge would probably consider those circumstances quite mitigating and would probably grant an absolute discharge. 

But this is all hypothetical, and I am not a lawyer.


----------



## Teager

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I'd say if you canvassed reservists across Canada, less than 1/4 would know what a memorial cross was.



I doubt that. If they didn't know what it was then they would just put random friends and such down to receive it. If you READ the form you know what it is for. Maybe some of the new reservists might not understand it but I think the majority do.

Besides never sign a form you don't understand or don't know what your signing   and if you do well I'm sure you'll learn quickly not to do that again.


----------



## George Wallace

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I'd say if you canvassed reservists across Canada, less than 1/4 would know what a memorial cross was.



If that is the case, many units have RMS Clerks who are Oxygen Thieves.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Teager said:
			
		

> I doubt that. If they didn't know what it was then they would just put random friends and such down to receive it. If you READ the form you know what it is for. Maybe some of the new reservists might not understand it but I think the majority do.
> 
> Besides never sign a form you don't understand or don't know what your signing   and if you do well I'm sure you'll learn quickly not to do that again.



Just because people get the briefing and complete the form each year, doesn't mean they would recognize a Memorial Cross if they saw someone wearing one. And even fewer would recognize the Memorial Ribbon.


----------



## Teager

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Just because people get the briefing and complete the form each year, doesn't mean they would recognize a Memorial Cross if they saw someone wearing one. And even fewer would recognize the Memorial Ribbon.



I agree with you there. My response was more in knowing what the Memorial Cross is. A lot would not know what it looks like or the Memorial Ribbon. That would go for most medals and ribbons many do not know what they look like and are awarded for.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This form, along with your NOK and Emergency Notification forms, your MPPR, and other documents are all part of the annual AAG that your unit should be conducting when it stands up after the summer break.  It is all part of your Pers File that your unit should be maintaining.



Read his profile. He's no longer serving.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> If that is the case, many units have RMS Clerks who are Oxygen Thieves.



Rather than slag the clerks, how about rebutting the assertion that Reservists don't know shit.


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Rather than slag the clerks, how about rebutting the assertion that Reservists don't know shit.



This is a form that the OR has members fill in annually..... If the Clerks aren't doing it, then there is something wrong.  It doesn't matter if they are PRes or Reg, it is an administrative problem.  At the same time, those who don't ask questions as to what they are filling out/signing, really are looking for problems later in other contracts, etc. that they may sign outside of the military. 

It still boils down to people not doing their jobs.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is a form that the OR has members fill in annually..... If the Clerks aren't doing it, then there is something wrong.  It doesn't matter if they are PRes or Reg, it is an administrative problem.  At the same time, those who don't ask questions as to what they are filling out/signing, really are looking for problems later in other contracts, etc. that they may sign outside of the military.
> 
> It still boils down to people not doing their jobs.



I don't want to derail the thread further, so I'll just let you go.


----------



## chrisf

Its not a negative comment on reservists, it's just a statement of fact.

The average reservist is around for maybe four years. In that time, most will never see a memorial cross, and will not likely be able to identify one. I'd go so far as to say most would be hard pressed to identify most honours/awards outside the current "common" ones. Nothing to do with ignorance, just reality that most reservists had probably not seen most medals.


----------



## dapaterson

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Its not a negative comment on reservists, it's just a statement of fact.
> 
> The average reservist is around for maybe four years. In that time, most will never see a memorial cross, and will not likely be able to identify one. I'd go so far as to say most would be hard pressed to identify most honours/awards outside the current "common" ones. Nothing to do with ignorance, just reality that most reservists had probably not seen most medals.



Hardly a problem unique to members of the Reserve force.  It's not uncommon to see improperly arranged ribbons on Reg F members wearing their 3s, and sometimes the more unusual ribbons & medals get a quick "What's that" as well.


----------



## chrisf

Folks are always afraid to admit and ask questions when they don't somthing. Ill happily admit I've said "hi, do you mind if I ask, what's that?" In reference to someone's honours and awards many times. Often comes with an interesting story. I think I've probably asked folks of every rank, retired folk, and folks from foreign countries.


----------



## x_para76

In my time as a reservist I don't ever recall being given a form to fill out to nominate someone to receive this award in the event of my death including when I was deployed overseas. For how long has this award been in existance? Is the award retroactive?


----------



## mariomike

x_para76 said:
			
		

> For how long has this award been in existance? Is the award retroactive?



Some information you may find of interest.

Memorial Cross 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/71771.0;nowap

Memorial Ribbon
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103245.0


----------



## ModlrMike

x_para76 said:
			
		

> In my time as a reservist I don't ever recall being given a form to fill out to nominate someone to receive this award in the event of my death including when I was deployed overseas. For how long has this award been in existance? Is the award retroactive?



The Memorial Cross (more often referred to as the Silver Cross) was first instituted by Order-in-Council 2374, dated December 1, 1919. It was awarded to mothers and widows (next of kin) of Canadian soldiers who died on active duty or whose death was consequently attributed to such duty.

More information is available here: Memorial Crosses


----------



## PPCLI Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is a form that the OR has members fill in annually..... If the Clerks aren't doing it, then there is something wrong.  It doesn't matter if they are PRes or Reg, it is an administrative problem.  At the same time, those who don't ask questions as to what they are filling out/signing, really are looking for problems later in other contracts, etc. that they may sign outside of the military.
> 
> It still boils down to people not doing their jobs.



Sorry to butt in - it is not a clerk's fault.  The fault lies with commanders: section, platoon, company and unit.  They (and their trusty right hands at all levels) bear full responsibility for the administration of their soldiers, not the clerks.  Clerks just prepare the necessary paperwork - the responsibility lies, as always, with commanders.  I see way too many Officers and Senior NCOs who honestly think that administration os the sole purview of clerks.  Responsibilities. unlike authorities, cannot be delegated.


----------



## Michael OLeary

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The Memorial Cross (more often referred to as the Silver Cross) was first instituted by Order-in-Council 2374, dated December 1, 1919. It was awarded to mothers and widows (next of kin) of Canadian soldiers who died on active duty or whose death was consequently attributed to such duty.
> 
> More information is available here: Memorial Crosses



But it was only in 2006 that the change was made to any three recipients as selected by the service member.

Fathers and husbands to get Memorial Crosses

Other discussion threads on the memorial Cross


----------



## George Wallace

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Sorry to butt in - it is not a clerk's fault.  The fault lies with commanders: section, platoon, company and unit.  They (and their trusty right hands at all levels) bear full responsibility for the administration of their soldiers, not the clerks.  Clerks just prepare the necessary paperwork - the responsibility lies, as always, with commanders.  I see way too many Officers and Senior NCOs who honestly think that administration os the sole purview of clerks.  Responsibilities. unlike authorities, cannot be delegated.



Indeed, administration lies on the shoulders of all supervisors; but when it comes to organizing an annual event to ensure everyone's Pers files are in order and up to date, the clerks are most familiar with what documentation should be in those files.  A Troop/Platoon WO/Officer's file/book will not hold all the necessary info, nor should it.


----------



## George Wallace

x_para76 said:
			
		

> In my time as a reservist I don't ever recall being given a form to fill out to nominate someone to receive this award in the event of my death including when I was deployed overseas. For how long has this award been in existance? Is the award retroactive?



Reply #10 has the Msg dated DEC 06, that institutes the changes:  Memorial Cross



> 3.   BEGINNING 1 JAN 07, THE MEMORIAL CROSS WILL BE GRANTED UNDER THE NEW OIC AS A MEMENTO OF PERSONAL LOSS AND SACRIFICE IN RESPECT OF THE DEATH OF A MBR OR FORMER MBR RESULTING FROM AN INJURY OR DIESEASE RELATED TO MIL SVC, REGARDLESS OF LOCATION



All the other details are found in that msg at the above link.


----------



## x_para76

Not that I have any intention of wearing them but we just got word that the MOD is going to issue us all of my Grandfather's WW 2 medals. Since he had never received any of them the process took a little while to complete and by the time we receive them it'll have been just over a year from flash to bang.


----------



## bick

That's great news X Para. Better to be with you and your family where they can be appreciated. Who did he serve with during the war?


----------



## Loachman

My father's older brother was KIA in Burma on 20 May 1944 while fighting with the Chindits (either West Kent Regiment or Buffs, British Army; sketchy accounts have more conflict than detail). My grandmother threw out his medals when they were delivered, and destroyed all other records of his military service. All that I have is a photograph, and his service number.

How does one go about researching records of deceased family members? I would like to purchase copies of the medals that he was awarded.


----------



## bick

Search at:

Www.cwgc.org to start. This will give you his army number, rank, regiment etc.


----------



## George Wallace

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Search at:
> 
> Www.cwgc.org to start. This will give you his army number, rank, regiment etc.



Please pay attention to detail:



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> My father's older brother was KIA in Burma on 20 May 1944 while fighting with the Chindits (either West Kent Regiment or Buffs, British Army; sketchy accounts have more conflict than detail). My grandmother threw out his medals when they were delivered, and destroyed all other records of his military service. All that I have is a photograph, and his service number.
> 
> How does one go about researching records of deceased family members? I would like to purchase copies of the medals that he was awarded.



You will probably have to send off a request to the UK Government for this information; as the Canadian archives will not contain anything pertaining to him unless he served in the Canadian military.

A few links that may help (I have not checked them out fully.):

http://www.findmypast.com/articles/world-records/full-list-of-united-kingdom-records/armed-forces-and-conflict?gclid=CMf35eDt2L0CFeY-Mgodd3EAHQ

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmysoldierafter1913.htm

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/search-menu/military-armed-forces-and-conflict

http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/category.aspx?cat=39


----------



## Old Sweat

The reference is to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and therefore would have the record in question. (I just checked the site, but not any other detail.)


----------



## Loachman

Thanks, GW.


----------



## x_para76

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> That's great news X Para. Better to be with you and your family where they can be appreciated. Who did he serve with during the war?



My grandfather was seconded from the S. African Union defence forces to the Royal Navy. He served from December 1941 to 1946 with the special branch as either a radar or sonar officer.


----------



## x_para76

Loachman said:
			
		

> My father's older brother was KIA in Burma on 20 May 1944 while fighting with the Chindits (either West Kent Regiment or Buffs, British Army; sketchy accounts have more conflict than detail). My grandmother threw out his medals when they were delivered, and destroyed all other records of his military service. All that I have is a photograph, and his service number.
> 
> How does one go about researching records of deceased family members? I would like to purchase copies of the medals that he was awarded.



If you're the primary next of kin you can send in the paper work requesting his medals to the MoD medals office. They may not reissue the medals but they can certainly tell you what he is entitled to.


----------



## bick

So, the Internet bullies strike again!  Yeaterday, I gave a proper link to The Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Promptly, George Wallace jumped on it and told me to read the post etc. Obviously, he wasn't familiar with the CWGC. As I was correct and attacked on an open forum, I deducted 100 milpoints from him. This morning, I get an email from this site telling me that George Wallace has deducted 300 milpoints from me for being, "misleading" about subject post. 

Nothing like "man'ing up" and admitting you are wrong George Wallace!  Petty. Must have gotten many low marks for accountability. 

Enjoy your weekend all.


----------



## Scott

Just an FYI for the future: don't report a post or action and then call it out yourself. By reporting it you're taking hands off the wheel and asking the staff to do something, so let that happen. And no, I'm not saying this because George is staff.

Scott
Staff


----------



## Loachman

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Yeaterday, I gave a proper link to The Commonwealth War Graves Commission.



Which does indeed bring up his basic information. Thanks, and that may be useful to others as well. It duplicates the information on the Rangoon Memorial, which I already have.


----------



## bick

Scott,

Ack


----------



## x_para76

Watched some of the d-day anniversary coverage today on the CBC and saw members of the Cogswell family wearing their Grandfather's medals at the ceremony and interviewed by the media. Should they be charged under the C.C for their transgression upon returning to Canada?


----------



## George Wallace

Not being in Canada, Canadian legislation would not apply.


----------



## lestock

Dear x para
It is my considered opinion that you are a muck-raking knob end.


----------



## x_para76

lestock said:
			
		

> Dear x para
> It is my considered opinion that you are a muck-raking knob end.



Lestock  cheers for that. PM inbound! 

George I'm pretty sure the C.C of Canada applies to all Canadians whether at home or abroad but perhaps I've been mislead there.


----------



## PuckChaser

X_para76 said:
			
		

> George I'm pretty sure the C.C of Canada applies to all Canadians whether at home or abroad but perhaps I've been mislead there.



If you're a soldier deployed on operations, yep.

Otherwise you belong to the law of the land AFAIK.


----------



## McG

X_para76 said:
			
		

> George I'm pretty sure the C.C of Canada applies to all Canadians whether at home or abroad but perhaps I've been mislead there.


With few exceptions, the criminal code applies only in Canada.  Aside from extending the law via section 130 of the NDA, the only other area I know of the criminal code applying outside the country is for offences relating to some sex crimes.


----------



## x_para76

MCG said:
			
		

> With few exceptions, the criminal code applies only in Canada.  Aside from extending the law via section 130 of the NDA, the only other area I know of the criminal code applying outside the country is for offences relating to some sex crimes.


Then I stand corrected. Lucky for those two young men.


----------



## Transporter

X_para76 said:
			
		

> Then I stand corrected. Lucky for those two young men.


I'd be willing to bet that had these two young men been wearing their ancestor's medals at a similar ceremony in Canada, nothing would have come of it, other than maybe someone pointing it out to them after the fact. I think the law is mostly concerned with folks wearing honors and awards and misrepresenting them as their own, which these two clearly weren't doing.


----------



## ModlrMike

I'll post this again because it's burried elsewhere deep in the thread.

The original impetus behind the legislation was driven by reports of benefits fraud at the end of WWI. I would opine that where no fraud is attempted, no offence exists. However it is also worth noting that this is a reverse onus law which would likely not withstand a court challenge today.


----------



## x_para76

X_para76 said:
			
		

> Not that I have any intention of wearing them but we just got word that the MOD is going to issue us all of my Grandfather's WW 2 medals. Since he had never received any of them the process took a little while to complete and by the time we receive them it'll have been just over a year from flash to bang.



For anyone on here looking to do the same as above I've just received the medals from the MOD. The process from flash to bang has taken approximately one year. This is probably the worst case scenario in terms of time lines because my grandfather didn't have a medals card, they had to do a full background check on his service history to determine his entitlements. 

If anyone needs any assistance pursuing this please feel free to reach out via PM and I'd be happy to provide any info that may help you.


----------



## George Wallace

X_para76 said:
			
		

> For anyone on here looking to do the same as above I've just received the medals from the MOD. The process from flash to bang has taken approximately one year. This is probably the worst case scenario in terms of time lines because my grandfather didn't have a medals card, they had to do a full background check on his service history to determine his entitlements.
> 
> If anyone needs any assistance pursuing this please feel free to reach out via PM and I'd be happy to provide any info that may help you.



Thank you for the update.

Can you make a new topic in the Family Research forum with a brief synopsis of what you had to do?


----------



## expwor

I have a related question about wearing of medals.  I earned the Corrections Exemplary Service Medal while with the Correctional Service Of Canada.  Now that I'm retired I'm getting the medal, ribbon along with the certificate under one frame and hang it on a wall
What I also got with the medal is a little pin of the medal, approx. 1/2"high if that (it's pretty small)
Am I the only one who can wear that pin of the medal?  I'm thinking of giving the pin to a certain someone special but don't want to do anything that will cause any problems
Does anyone here know if it's legal for someone to wear a pin of a medal or do the same restrictions apply as with medals themselves
Thanks

Tom


----------



## ModlrMike

I would say that the intent is that the pin represents the medal, so it's probably specific to you. For example, when I was made SB St J, I was given an lapel pin as well as the decoration. It was explained to me that pin represented the medal and was for daily wear. There is also precedence with the Order of Canada and OrMM as well.

I don't think that your giving the pin away will cause "problems" as too few people will know the meaning. It just won't be correct in the strictest sense.


----------



## expwor

OK Thanks...think I'll just keep it for myself, and get her another gift

Tom


----------



## marshall sl

It's a lapel pin and it's  a mini version of the medal.  Are you not mounting it for wear? Too many CSC types just hide it away. Mine is mounted with the rest of mine


----------



## expwor

The actual medal I am getting mounted in a frame with the certificate
It's at the frame shop as we speak
And no, never would think of giving it away, although one day after I pass away, it's there for the family for memories
The mini lapel pin (which I was thinking about giving as a gift), well I wore it with my uniform along with my 25 year pin.  I don't dress up, think the last time I did was about 10 years ago (seriously) and the casual clothes I do wear don't lend themselves to having pins on them

Tom


----------



## expwor

Got my medal and certificate back from the framers yesterday afternoon
Here's what the finished product looks like.  Better than staying in the sock drawer LOL
And just to get an idea of the size of the pin of the medal another pic

Tom


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in another discussion, adding here for reference ( this is a BBC source ),



			
				old medic said:
			
		

> BBC Magazine has a new (25 Nov 2016) article on Walts.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38085998



"He also says that people who wear medals won by relatives, to honour their memory, would not face prosecution."


----------



## Griz375

-Hutch- said:


> I was just wondering, I think cadets used to be allowed. I personally don't thing it would be a good idea because you did not personally earn them and it is glorifying the war. well that is why my papa never wore his after the war because he was not proud of them and they reminded him of what he had to do.
> 
> Anyway, just wondering because I have like 16 at home from 3 of my family members. If I were to get all of them, it would be impossible to wear them. lol
> 
> Moderator edit: Punctuation and capital letters, along with proper spelling is your friend.
> ~Burrows


You may display them as in a picture box frame or a similar mount. You may NOT wear them on your person.


----------



## DeweyDecimal

Griz375 said:


> You may display them as in a picture box frame or a similar mount. You may NOT wear them on your person.



Is that an Army.ca record ?  The original post is from 2005.....


----------

