# Mindset of the antiwar crowd



## alfie (8 May 2007)

Don Butler 
The Ottawa Citizen 


Tuesday, May 08, 2007


Canadian activists were out in force at a recent conference in Cairo that sought to forge closer links between the international antiwar movement and Islamic resistance groups, including several on Canada's terrorism list.

About 20 Canadians attended the March 29 to April 1 Cairo Conference, the largest delegation from Canada in the event's five-year history. According to one report, Canada also had one of the largest delegations from outside the Middle East. In total, as many as 1,500 delegates from the Middle East, Europe, South Korea and the Americas attended.

Many of the Canadian delegates were from the Canadian Peace Alliance, the country's largest umbrella peace organization, and some of its 150 affiliated groups, said peace alliance co-ordinator Sid Lacombe, who attended the conference.

Groups that sent delegates include the Toronto Coalition to Stop the War, the Canadian Arab Federation, the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid, Artists Against War, the Venezuela We Are With You Coalition, the Toronto-Haiti Action Committee, the Toronto-Egypt Solidarity Campaign and Not In Our Name -- Jews Against Israel's Wars.

The conference attracted representatives of at least four organizations that appear on Canada's list of terrorist organizations -- Hamas, Hezbollah, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Jamaat al-Islamiya, best known for killing 71 tourists in Luxor, Egypt in 1997.

Among the attendees were Moussa Abu Marzouk, deputy leader of Hamas, and Ali Fayad, a member of Hezbollah's politburo.

According to conference literature, the main purpose of the gathering, sponsored by the officially banned Muslim Brotherhood and Egyptian opposition parties, was to forge "an international alliance against imperialism and Zionism."

If coverage of the conference is any guide, delegates appear to have made progress toward that goal.

One report in Cairo's Al Ahram Weekly said the growing co-operation between "the anti-global left and Muslims" was striking. The left, the article said, "is finally overcoming its traditional resistance to the cultural conservatism of Islam, and likewise Muslims are reaching out to the left."

A story in the Socialist Worker said the meeting was "a demonstration of the growing resistance in the Middle East and its links to the worldwide antiwar movement."

And a lengthy account in the New York-based leftist magazine Monthly Review said the conference "revealed increased cohesion" between Islamic, nationalist and socialist forces in the Middle East and antiwar groups in Canada, Europe, Korea and Venezuela.

However, Mr. Lacombe dismissed the likelihood of heightened co-operation between Islamist groups and the Canadian Peace Alliance.

"There's very little practical application for that right now," he said. "Our focus is Afghanistan. And Afghanistan wasn't really at the top of the agenda there.

"We're not actually co-ordinating our activity with any of these organizations. There's very little logistical crossover that would make any kind of sense under the circumstances."

That said, the Canadian delegation in Cairo was diverse, he acknowledged, and some of the groups might be interested in working more closely with groups in the Middle East.

"They have very different sets of politics. So individual groups can sign on to whatever it is they feel they want to sign on to."

The willingness of Canadian antiwar activists to meet with representatives of groups that are on Canada's list of terrorist organizations has drawn fire from some critics.

For instance, a column by Terry Glavin in the Georgia Straight last month accused the Canadian Peace Alliance of holding "a strategy session with some of the world's most foul jihadists."

And a website called Judeoscope, whose avowed mission is "to cast light on anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, xenophobia and militant Islam in Canada and the world," also weighed in with a stinging attack.

The presence of antiwar groups at the conference "should make it clear to anyone still in doubt that, far from promoting peace, these coalitions serve as western cheerleaders of radical Islam's brutal disregard for human life," the website declared.

However, Mr. Lacombe said those who accuse Canadian antiwar activists of aiding and abetting terrorists misunderstand why they were in Cairo.

"For us it's just a question of dialogue and clarity, of being able to meet with people who have experienced war over the course of the last few years," he said.

"It does help us figure out what's going on in the world around us, and it is helpful in that sense. But the possibilities for any sort of collaboration, we don't really look at it as that sort of activity."

Though a statement issued at the end of the conference endorsed a revival of the Palestinian intifada and "the weapon of resistance" -- an apparent reference to suicide bombing -- Mr. Lacombe said the Canadian Peace Alliance was there strictly as an observer and did not sign on to any conference declarations.

The fact that some groups at the conference are on Canada's terrorism list does not concern Mr. Lacombe: "We want to be able to have the opportunity to talk with anyone, from any number of different groups."

Nor is he worried that meeting with groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah will attract scrutiny from RCMP or CSIS. "If we're in trouble for talking to people, whereas you can be considered a hero for bombing them, that's not the kind of world we want to live in."

A spokesman for the federal Department of Justice agreed that merely attending a public conference with representatives of designated terrorist groups would likely not constitute a breach of Canadian law.

Mr. Lacombe said dialogue with all parties, including the Taliban in Afghanistan, is the only way to resolve conflicts in the world.

"At some point, this is going to have to happen," he said. "Otherwise, we just kill everyone."

Mr. Lacombe said the Cairo conferences are an important forum for groups in the Middle East, particularly for Egyptian opposition groups who would normally be jailed by the regime if they tried to meet.

"Part of the point of the conference is it provides a little bit of international cover for the Egyptian groups," he said.

The conference is also increasingly important for Canadian groups that want to acquire first-hand knowledge of what's happening in the Middle East, Mr. Lacombe said.

It also provides an opportunity for Canadian antiwar groups to connect with like-minded groups from other G8 and NATO nations, he said.

"We've now got more groups internationally that are working on the Afghanistan campaign talking to each other.

"I think that was the key for us."

The only other Canadian delegate who could be reached was Ali Mallah, a vice-president of the Canadian Arab Federation and a member of the international solidarity committee of the Canadian Union of Public Employees.

In a brief interview, Mr. Mallah said the Canadian Peace Alliance and the Toronto Coalition to Stop the War were thinking of issuing a press release about the Cairo Conference later this week "just to put things into perspective."

Mr. Mallah, who has attended four of the five Cairo conferences, brushed aside Mr. Glavin's critique in the Georgia Straight.

"I'm not interested in wasting my time with stuff like that," he said. "I would prefer if we could have a civilized discussion but unfortunately he went on his way and came to the wrong conclusion."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2007

And these people were allowed to lay a wreath at the National War Memorial for the Vimy Ridge ceremonies.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (8 May 2007)

I really wish I could write-off leaders of the Canadian Peace Alliance as merely idealistic and naive, but based on the pattern, I'm beginning to beleive they share a lot more of the outright hatred of Hezbollah/Hamas ideology than I'd realized.  

You wonder if you showed them the Daniel Pearl video to give them some insight into their new allies if their response would be disgust or if they'd tried to justify it....


Matthew.


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## George Wallace (8 May 2007)

And they wonder why sites like this call them down.  With 'Fifth Columnists' like them in the country, can there be any doubts?  I kinda wish that we had a method to encourage these people to emigrate en mass to a nation of their choice, where they think they can do some real good for the world, and get them out of our country.  Apparently Canada is not good enough for them.  Apparently we are all a bunch of thugs who in the name of Peace and Security are burning villages, killing babies and raping women.   :


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## Teddy Ruxpin (8 May 2007)

Where is the media frenzy accompanying this story?  Where are the "gotcha" interviews at the airport as CPA representatives return to Canada?  Where are the questions in Parliament?

Unlike the unfortunate Shane Doan, these people claim to want to be part of public discourse and are _seeking_ attention for their views.  Where is the scrutiny?  Where is the research?  Where are the questions...?

C'mon media, throw us a bone here.... This garners a _single_ story?  How 'bout we start with asking how many attendees received support from taxpayers or, just as bad, union dues to make the journey to Cairo...


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## KevinB (8 May 2007)

WTF over.

BTW -- what pray tell is an Islamic Resistance Group?  I read that as dealing with terrorists 

Someone should have been waiting at the airport with a firing squad.


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## Flip (8 May 2007)

BTW -- what pray tell is an Islamic Resistance Group?  I read that as dealing with terrorists 

You've heard it, I'm sure.
"One group's insurgent is another groups freedom fighter."
Of course this obfuscates a few details - but it's catchy ;D

Naturally the Islamists in the group were on their best behaviour.
Peace groups should be careful what they wish for.
The kind of "freedom" provided by the Taliban wouldn't be their cup of tea.

Better the media leave it alone anyway.
I wouldn't want to risk giving these groups a soapbox to stand on.
No matter how loopy a group is, media coverage gives them legitimacy.
Terrorists absolutely depend on it.  Peaceniks would be irrelevant without it.
Media coverage was probably their goal in staging this meeting.

What I really want is for the RCMP to find a reason for detaining and
charging some of the "Canadians" in the group.


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## niner domestic (8 May 2007)

So they think that by just being on the presence of a terrorist group isn't breaching any Canadian laws? Perhaps in their learned opinion it may not be but I'm sure Arar will find that amusing.  Wasn't one of the reasons he was initially put on a watch list was by being seen speaking to a suspected terrorist?


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## medaid (8 May 2007)

... treason... I say they should be arrested at the border for suspected terrorist activities. They should be locked away under the Anti-Terrorist Legislations. 'nuff said.


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## George Wallace (8 May 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> So they think that by just being on the presence of a terrorist group isn't breaching any Canadian laws? Perhaps in their learned opinion it may not be but I'm sure Arar will find that amusing.  Wasn't one of the reasons he was initially put on a watch list was by being seen speaking to a suspected terrorist?



I am sure that should the Government and Business decide to "legislate" that any group/union affiliated/associated in any way with a "Terrorist" organization would be refused funding, it would go a long way to solving this problem.  Not a perfect and final solution, but a start.


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## GAP (8 May 2007)

I wonder how many have "charity status" or some form of recognition/status that could be hurt by these actions


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## aesop081 (8 May 2007)

Put the CPA and others on the terrorist organization list........


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## Cloud Cover (8 May 2007)

How many of those people who went over there are on welfare, EI or other government handout and therefore not looking for work?  If any of them were, they should be cut off immediately and taxpayers should be refunded. Any union or other organization that may have funded the trip should have their books examined and if necessary they should be prosecuted for financing terrorism.


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## niner domestic (8 May 2007)

Well, strangely enough a charity status is restricted to a minimum amount of the organization's plans and spending on politicking and lobbying. One might want to question whether any of these orgs have surpassed that time/resource allotment/or subject matter.  http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4033a/t4033a-e.html#P391_29683 However, I believe that the CPA does not have a charity status.


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## George Wallace (8 May 2007)

Very good points Whiskey.

Does any Federal or Provincial Government have the gumption to do so?  Does any large Business or group of Businesses have the courage to do so?


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## MarkOttawa (8 May 2007)

Coming real soon:

Marxism: A Festival of Resistance 
Toronto, May 10-13
http://www.carleton.ca/socialists/marxism/ 

Analysis here:

History's Losers Unite - A Festival Of Treason May 10th - 13th Toronto
http://blazingcatfur.blogspot.com/2007/05/historys-losers-unite-festival-of.html

Mark
Ottawa


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## GK .Dundas (8 May 2007)

The Canadian Peace Alliance...... Quelle surprise! :
 About 10 years age I was assaulted by a member of Peace Now on my own door step for voicing the opinion that NATO was justified by it's actions in the former Yugoslavia viz the Kosovo bombing /invasion.
 Sucker punch or not he could barely stagger off under his own power and friends who had been pretty verbally threatening became some what quiet when when I introduced him to my sidewalk...... and my lawn ...and my fence  and the city's sidewalk and the ..... well you know how it goes.


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## Long in the tooth (8 May 2007)

There are some incredibly uninformed people out there.  I recently spoke with a studied gentleman and the topic turned to Iraq.  Surprisingly, he suggested that Saddam needn't have been executed, that it was simply victor's justice.  He had no idea of the atrocities he committed, from using poison gas on his own populace to invading other countries and torturing his own citizens and disposing of them in industrial shredders still alive.

I try to be sympathetic to their plight.  In the words of John Wayne - 'life is hard, it's harder when your'e stupid.'


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## vonGarvin (8 May 2007)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> I try to be sympathetic to their plight.  In the words of John Wayne - 'life is hard, it's harder when *your'e* (sic) stupid.'



Not being a dolt here, but isn't it ironic that "you're" is not spelled correctly?

Anyway, back to the thread.  I find it ironic that this past week we've been hearing about the threat that Sikh extremists posed in the mid 1980s, and the consequences of ignoring warnings?  I mean, people are too eager to ignore the real threat of islamic extremism, and suggest that this is NOT a winnable war we find ourselves in.  I mean, look back to 1940.  Things were bleak indeed!  The Germans overran Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg and France in ten months, the BEF was an unarmed mob, Mussolini was ready to "conquer" Africa and the untrained 1st Canadian Division was THE force in the UK!  Talk about bleak and "unwinnable".  Add to that the nightly bombings in the UK that initially were quite devestating (until the focus became the terror raids on London).  Were we to have these people running things in 1940, VE day would be 22 June, but it would be SiE day (Sieg in Europa) day instead, meine Damen und Herren!


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## alfie (9 May 2007)

Sent this in to my local paper, maybe a few more might get the rest of the media on side with this

"Recent stories of the Egyptian conference of mid-east radicals attended by the Canadian Peace Alliance show the need for our government to take action. The membership of the CPA shows how far they have reached into Canadian Labour and our universities and charitable organizations. Of note the Council of Canadians, Greenpeace Canada, Canadian Labour Congress, Ontario Federation of Labour, Toronto Labour Council, and the OPIRG groups at both Carleton and Ottawa Universities, many large unions and collection of antiwar and socialist groups are also members. They profess peace but are unwilling to accept that peace comes with a price, one that many Canadians have paid with their lives for.
Why does no one ask why am I paying tax dollars supporting organizations that supports terrorists and their cause? Money in grants from the government support many labour programs, tax dollars go to universities who subsidize if not entirely fund these groups on campus, and tax deductions go to charitable groups as well. Why does the union worker allow their union dues to be spent this way? Why do the students who are paying such high tuition costs not ask why? How much money is being laundered into the coffers of Hamas, Hezbolla, Taliban and other radical organizations?  It is time for CSIS and the federal and provincial governments to investigate not only the members of these groups but also their funding. "


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## MarkOttawa (10 May 2007)

More:

With friends like these ...
Self-proclaimed leaders of Canada's anti-war movement do themselves, and the cause of peace, a disservice by associating with terrorists
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=46616654-7f71-437c-b5dc-a7015a8d9c00&p=1

Why The Left In Canada Gets Afghanistan Wrong
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2007/05/why-left-in-canada-gets-afghanistan.html

Islamist-Left Alliance A Growing Force
http://www.nysun.com/article/54077?page_no=1

Hitler-Stalin For The Terror Age
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/009925.php

Mark
Ottawa


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## Kirkhill (10 May 2007)

Interesting to juxtapose this with Chris Hitchen's latest book "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything".

I just had someone this morning express concern that "Religion" was getting a bad rap because the "Secular" 20th century, which abhorred (in their view) religion was one of the bloodiest of all time.  My response was that religion is not about God, or Allah or the other 9 million names of God - it is ultimately about belief.

While previous centuries saw wars between Protestants and Catholics, Muslims and Hindus, Christians and Pagans, Arians and Augustinians the wars of the 20th Century were between German Nationalists and French Nationalists (amongst others) and then between Communists and Fascists and then between Communists and Capitalists.  Currently we are engaged in a war between Islamic  Crypto-Fascist Socialists (or some other suitably trendy label) and Running Dog Hindu Christian Social Democratic Capitalists - fairly amorphic but no doubt some historian of the future will define suitable isms for class room study.  And coming soon to a newspaper near you - the Environment wars between the followers of Gaia and the Deniers.

The problem is not with God.  The problem is not even with the belief.  The problem is with the proselytisers: those people that prey on the fears of many that they will be victims of communal punishment unless they get their neighbours to hew to the one, true belief that will save the world and them individually......and if they have to sacrifice the neighbours to save the greater part of humanity, including themselves, then so be it.  Their reward is a better life in this world, or a better life for their children or a better life in the next world.

All of these people: the Marxist-Leninists, the Suzuki-Goreites, the Islamo-fascists, the Russo-Communists and, I regret to say, many Christian evangelicals and charismatics are driven by many of the same urges - the need to save everybody else in order to save themselves.  It is little wonder that they find kindred spirits in otherwise disparate movements.

I saw an article in today's National Post by an American name of David Brooks - the article seems to be protected on the internet yet (probably available tomorrow) - "Where History Reigns Supreme".
He, like me, is an unabashed Britophile.  Unlike me he is an American, an outsider, and writes much better.  Two or three paragraphs in the centre of his piece caught my eye.



> "History, in the British public culture, takes precedence over philosophy, psychology, sociology and economics.   And with a few obvious exceptions, *British historians have not seen the human story as the march towards some culminating Idea*.
> 
> *Instead they've seen history as * a hodge-podge of activity - as *one damn thing after another*. (Editriginally attributed to Elbert Hubbard (1856 - 1915) and subsequently revised by Edna St. Vincent Millay (1892 - 1950) to "It's not true that life is one damn thing after another; it is one damn thing over and over." )   As a result, George Orwell generalized, the English "have a horror of abstract thought, they feel no need for any philosophy or systematic 'worldview' ".  This isn't because they are practical - that's a national myth, Orwell wrote - it's just that given the stuttering realities of history, they find systems absurd.
> 
> ...



I think that Brooks is onto the fundamental difference between those that have a need for a firm belief (and more importantly the need to make others believe) and the underlying pragmatism that permeates the Westminster tradition.  There is no single underlying belief system behind the Westminster system.  All of its separate components have been the results of compromises between people with strongly held beliefs, made over the course of more than a thousand years.  It is full of internal contradictions.  But that doesn't matter.  Pragmatic accomodation and incrementalism are the order of the day.  That makes is hard to explain to those that demand clarity what the rules are because the rules are whatever we say they are.  And that is anathema to all the Marxists, Fascists, Environmentalists and Socialists as well as most "Religionists".

If you want a succinct expression of English philosophy I think you could do worse than this: "What's the use. We're all going to die.  Whose buying?"    Too many of the aforementioned twits don't get that and leave themselves open to the proselytizers - like Gore, Suzuki and Bin Laden
.


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## MarkOttawa (10 May 2007)

Kirkhill: I largely agree with you but the English do have something rather milder:

The Whig Interpretation of History 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whig-Interpretation-History-Herbert-Butterfield/dp/0393003183/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/026-8985412-7656448?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178830660&sr=8-1

And there is this aspect of American attitudes:
http://www.globaljournalist.org/web-content/stories/2006_12/02missourichina/page1.html

"with God's help we will lift Shanghai up and up, ever up, until it is just like Kansas City." 
http://www.globaljournalist.org/web-content/stories/2006_12/02missourichina/page1.html

Mark
Ottawa


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## Kirkhill (10 May 2007)

Mark - I plead guilty to Whiggish methodology (searching the past for clues to the present - and with my personal bias intact).  I like to think that I steer clear of the Whiggish requirement to find "Progress".  With Algerians of 14,000 BC drawing images of Archers battling each other,  Sumerians sending out dunning notes for late payment on a delivery of cattle and Roman soldiers on Hadrian's wall sending notes back home to Italy requesting warm underwear - I am not convinced that things change all that much.

I think "Whigs" rather go to prove my point.  We were doing quite alright as an Empire, minding our business, convivially raping, pillaging and profiting alongside similarly inclined locals, until those reforming minded Manchester Methodists with their socialist Co-Operative societies decided we needed to fix the world.    It was all down hill from there. ;D

Champagne "socialists" stirring up the under-classes donchano.

The Americans are very much the inheritors of the Methodist tendency (that is why, in a previous post I linked Jack Layton and George Bush as springing from common stock).  

While Brits have been able to work up a lather over various issues in the past I think that there is enough of a folk-memory of history that there is an inate cynicism that goes along with being a Brit and that permeates all aspects of life.  That cynicism has tended to temper many excesses.


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## MarkOttawa (10 May 2007)

Kirkhill: Mancunians have a lot for which to answer.  And I fear "Brits" are a dying notion.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n6_v45/ai_13580898

"That cynicism has tended to temper many excesses."  Not in Canada.  Pity.

A relevant section of "A Dance to the Music of Time":
http://www.amazon.ca/Dance-Music-Time-Third-Movement/dp/0226677176/ref=sr_1_2/701-9840826-9598762?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178839436&sr=8-2

Mark
Ottawa


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## Kirkhill (10 May 2007)

Unfortunately I think you might be right on the Brit issue.  It was always something of an artifact and more "popular" amongst the Scots than the English.  It was James VI & I that introduced the concept of Britain in 1603 with the Union of the Crowns, but it wasn't popularized until the Union of the Flags in 1707.  And then it became largely Scots (lowlanders) saying to the English, "See, we're just like you....all Britons together."  The Tcheuchters from the Highlands never really bought into the notion, nor did most English - as I can attest from schoolyard discussions in England.

So the Islands are at risk of coming unstuck along very well known fault lines.

As to the Mancunians - their most grievous fault was David Beckham.  

I haven't read "Dance".  Was there a particular reference that was appropriate?  It looks like an interesting read.


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## MarkOttawa (10 May 2007)

Kirkhill: The war novels of Powell and, if you haven't read them, also the "Sword of Honour" trilogy by Evelyn Waugh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_at_Arms_(Evelyn_Waugh)
http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Honour-Trilogy-Everymans-Library/dp/0679431365

The Crete section of "Officers and Gentlemen" is very good:
http://www.amazon.com/Officers-Gentlemen-Evelyn-Waugh/dp/0316926302

Waugh also served with Randolph Churchill liaising with the partisans in Yugoslavia and was, shall one say, left without illusions:
http://www.abbotshill.freeserve.co.uk/USIntro.htm

Mark
Ottawa


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## Kirkhill (10 May 2007)

Personally I have always liked John Masters's WWI trilogy "And now God be thanked" as well as his WWII "Man of War".  The latter is particularly interesting for young soldiers in a peace time / constabulary army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Masters


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## MarkOttawa (10 May 2007)

Then there is "Nightrunners of Bengal":
http://www.amazon.com/Nightrunners-Bengal-John-Masters/dp/0881843555

Love a good chapati.  Slipping just slightly off-topic.

Mark
Ottawa


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## Kirkhill (10 May 2007)

Just slightly


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## a_majoor (14 May 2007)

They're still at it:

http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2007/05/marriage-of-convenience.



> 14 May 2007
> *A Marriage of Convenience*
> 
> What do Islamists, Marxists, Socialist Utopians, Greens, and Anarchists have in common? A desire to completely undo and remake our society ... apparantly:
> ...


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## MarkOttawa (14 May 2007)

The complete link for the previous comment:
http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2007/05/marriage-of-convenience.html

More:

Brothers (and sisters?) in arms:

1) "Marxism: a festival of resistance", May 10-13, 2007, Toronto:
http://www.carleton.ca/socialists/marxism/

'a four day conference of over fifty workshops, artistic display and performances. If you are against imperialism, war, corporate greed and destruction of the environment, if you want to learn about and organize for a new world of peace, freedom and liberation then don't miss Marxism: A Festival of Resistance'

2) 'TorontoMuslims.com, "Where Toronto Muslims go first", Events:'
http://www.torontomuslims.com/events_display.asp?ID=3652#

'Type: Political Title: Building Unity: Muslims and the Left Date: 5/10/2007 Time: 7:30pm to 10:00pm

Speakers:

Zafar Bangash – Director, Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought
Ali Mallah - Ontario Vice-president, Canadian Arab Federation
Peter Leibovitch – Peace and social justice activist
Ausma Malik – Vice-president, Equity, University of Toronto Students' Union (2006-07)
Wahida Valiante – National Vice-president, Canadian Islamic Congress
James Clark – Leading member, International Socialists

Registration: Registration info and full schedule at:
http://www.socialist.ca

Suitability: Men, Women, Youth, Non-Muslim, New Muslim

Contact Info: Marxism 2007: A Festival of Resistance
Phone: 416-972-6391
E-mail: marxism@sympatico.ca

Place: Bahen Centre for Information Technology
40 St. George Street
University of Toronto
TTC: Queen's Park (walk west to St. George, walk north of College)

Comments: George Bush's "war on terror" has been accompanied by a wave of rampant racial profiling and Islamophobia. Hear this diverse panel of activists discuss the opportunities and challenges for building a united movement against war and Islamophobia, and for social justice and a new world of freedom.

This talk is one of two opening meetings for Marxism 2007: A Festival of Resistance, a four-day conference of over fifty workshops, artistic displays and performances.

If you are against imperialism, war, corporate greed, and the destruction of the environment, if you want to learn about and organize for a new world of peace, freedom, and liberation, then don't miss Marxism 2007: A Festival of Resistance.

NOTE: Group rate — Five full weekend registration passes from $100 (that's $20 per person for the full weekend pass!!)

Registration info and full schedule at:
http://www.socialist.ca'

Mark
Ottawa


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## Sig_Des (15 May 2007)

Can't believe I'd missed this earlier. These actions sound _dangerously_ close to treason. I'd love to see a bloody _peace_ activist be connected to terrorist action. Bloody Hypocrites. Send them here.


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## Kirkhill (15 May 2007)

Terry Glavin has a good article in today's Vancouver Sun following up on this.



> Anti-war left makes an unholy alliance
> Key leaders from the Canadian peace movement have far too eagerly linked up with the Islamist far right
> Terry Glavin, Special to the Sun
> Published: Tuesday, May 15, 2007
> ...


http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=b08979b8-6aa7-4876-95db-34461a886d04


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## Flip (15 May 2007)

Kirkhill,

I appreciated and agree with these comments in particular;



> The problem is not with God.  The problem is not even with the belief.  The problem is with the proselytisers: those people that prey on the fears of many that they will be victims of communal punishment unless they get their neighbours to hew to the one, true belief that will save the world and them individually......and if they have to sacrifice the neighbours to save the greater part of humanity, including themselves, then so be it.  Their reward is a better life in this world, or a better life for their children or a better life in the next world.



To paraphrase - It's not the belief, it's the activism that is the problem.

If Islamofascists didn't resort to terror - who would care?
If Envirofascists didn't beat the drum constantly - and I mean constantly
they might actually do some good.

The ends do not necessarily justify the means.

Am I on the right track?


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## Kirkhill (15 May 2007)

Absolutely Flip.

I don't know what your road map to heaven looks like. My own is pretty faded. My decisions may take me to the other place but they are unlikely to cause you to end up there.  I don't know what right is.  I know what I believe right is.  

I trust that we can treat each other civilly and politely, even if it involves a degree of hypocrisy, in order to ensure a harmonious environment in which we can mutually prosper.  

When that isn't possible ..... then other means must be resorted to ..... fight, flee or adapt.


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## KaptKain (16 May 2007)

Too many one sided faces here a little more north of the border then I thought.
I am sure theres probably "spies" from the violent wings of these terrorist groups at the "conference", hence where my skepticism would stand. BUT, I am sure theres a few there from these "terrorist" groups that actually want PEACEFUL remedies to the situations at hand. Such as members who lost ALL their children/grandchildren/spouse to it and don't want to see it continue.
If we are not willing to even take a chance and be willing to listen, or offer our views then you might as well either pull the pin on yourself now, or go down south where ya belong!
...not willing to listen also puts you in the same "shoes" as those Taleban leaders, Insurgent wings,..etc.




			
				MedTech said:
			
		

> ... treason... I say they should be arrested at the border for suspected terrorist activities. They should be locked away under the Anti-Terrorist Legislation's. 'nuff said.



Well, ya better charge me for treason then.
I am 100% against the actions that ANY terrorist group does that is harm mentally/physically/financially to any person/organization/nation. 
BUT, theres always back doors to any organization to "secretly" hold peaceful talks to try to resolve any violent/political motives/actions they do on a daily basis. If the outcome can be less hostility/killing innocent people, and both sides getting "something" they want, I am ALL FOR IT!

Lesson learned countless times: Only way for any victory in any conflict is either one side with overwhelming military superiority or 2 sided talks (with neutral member if req'd) with the willingness to COMPROMISE from BOTH/ALL sides of a conflict.


----------



## MarkOttawa (16 May 2007)

A column by Barbara Kay:

Don't you know there's a war on?
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=32fda2d0-c6cd-47fb-a348-b270b02bf91e

Final para:



> Our ruthless, supremacist Islamist enemies should be acknowledged as the fascists they are, a word leftists generally prefer to apply to ideological adversaries at home. This is real life, not a movie. The question is no longer rhetorical: Don't you know there's a war on? Sacrifices must be made. Go to the beach, eat eggs, make love. But consider jettisoning such consequential peacetime luxuries as naivete and apathy. The politically mainstream media must go even further, though, and forswear their default tendency to indulge the kind of anti-democratic perfidy from the extreme left that they would never tolerate from the right.



And the audio of an interview May 15 of Terry Glavin by Steve Madely, CFRA, Ottawa:
http://www.cfra.com/chum_audio/Terry_Glavin_May15.mp3

Terry Glavin's blog:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/

Mark
Ottawa


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## a_majoor (16 May 2007)

KaptKain said:
			
		

> BUT, theres always back doors to any organization to "secretly" hold peaceful talks to try to resolve any violent/political motives/actions they do on a daily basis. If the outcome can be less hostility/killing innocent people, and both sides getting "something" they want, I am ALL FOR IT!
> 
> Lesson learned countless times: Only way for any victory in any conflict is either one side with overwhelming military superiority or 2 sided talks (with neutral member if req'd) with the willingness to COMPROMISE from BOTH/ALL sides of a conflict.



Perhaps you have heard of the Oslo accords, where Israel secretly negotiated a peace accord with the PLO. While the Nobel peace prize was awarded, history has shown there was no peace to be had; the Oslo accords were a misdirection or stalling tactic by the PLO and if anything violence became even greater.

The problem with your formulation is to assume the Taliban, AQ, Hamas, Hezbollah, LTTE or other terror groups actually want to compromise. They don't. In their world view any cessation of hostilities, peace feelers or withdrawal is a victory for them and a signal to carry out even more of the same actions which resulted in "victory".

Victory in the West has usually been confined to generation long holding actions, waiting for the leadership to die off, followers to become disillusioned by lack of results or attrition through military/police actions to take their toll on the insurgencies. This one combines a large critical mass of insurgents, fanatical idiological basis which admits no compromise and the backing of powerful State actors which can supply the logistical tail to keep the insurgencies going on a prolonged basis and on a global scale.

We will have to start using a lot more mental and physical resources before this gets better


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 May 2007)

KaptKain said:
			
		

> Too many one sided faces here a little more north of the border then I thought.
> 
> If we are not willing to even take a chance and be willing to listen, or offer our views then you might as well either pull the pin on yourself now, or go down south where ya belong!



Consider this little tirade your freebie.....


----------



## marshall sl (16 May 2007)

hmm I smell a troll here Kapitan!


----------



## Fyuri (17 May 2007)

Please note that the following post is done partly in jest, something called sarcasm at times, if you will. I'm sure most of you don't need to be told that, but there's always one. If my wording seems harsh, don't read it. These are my thoughts.

I took personal ofense to the blog article by "blazingcatfur" on page one of this thread, where he attacked postal workers. We're not all psychopaths, just most of us.

"If we're in trouble for talking to people, whereas you can be considered a hero for bombing them, that's not the kind of world we want to live in."
Here's an idea... a really good one too... We can start fighting using the same guerilla tactics being used against our soldiers. Let's strap explosives to these "peace" activists, and let them have happy time with their new terrorist pals. It can be double the fun for them, because then they can be just like their new best friends, and make an explosive point to boot, not to mention the smoking crater that would be a better use for the air that these "people" are wasting.

What do you do when you have an infestation problem in your house? Call an exterminator. We need an exterminator of sorts to rid this country of the scum that resides in it.

There was more I was hoping to add, it was about how everyone was entitled to certain rights and all, without discrimination, you know that stuff, but I'm not sure of the exact wording of it, and so will not go into detail about that.

-Paul

My thoughts and prayers to all the soldiers, both overseas and elsewhere, making a difference in our world everyday, without asking for a single thanks from anybody, and all too often not receiving one. Consider this a collective one from everyone, we all owe you more than we can give. I hope one day I'll be half the soldier that most of you are.


----------



## Greymatters (17 May 2007)

It seems just a bit hypocritical that representatives of an 'anti-war' group would want to sit down and chew the fat with groups that promote and commit violence, even when they claim it is justified violence...


----------



## KaptKain (17 May 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Consider this little tirade your freebie.....



NP, welll when others can say to hang peeps fer treason right off, yet I cant point out something I see EVERYDAY in another nations culture..... 

My freebie is gone then....
Just cause somebody is from a terrorist organization ya always assume its their job to kill..every member. I know 99.999% are violent. But theres a chance of a good broker to speak to. And it is not at the cost of thee "governing" body to lose face up front. Back door scapegoat = peace activists. I believe in keeping ALL avenues open as possible to a final solution.
I do not believe the final outcome will be made publicly during the initiail phases if and when it ends. There would be too much losing "face" directly by any sides. Unfortunately it will not end for some time to come.

I would keep my eyes closely on them during any International traveling.


----------



## Teflon (17 May 2007)

:crybaby:


----------



## Flip (17 May 2007)

KaptKain,



> BUT, I am sure theres a few there from these "terrorist" groups that actually want PEACEFUL remedies to the situations at hand. Such as members who lost ALL their children/grandchildren/spouse to it and don't want to see it continue.



Umm no. Just as there are anti-war groups, there are anti-peace groups.
We call them terrorists.
They are not like us. They have no interest in our kind of society.
In fact, western society is anathema to them, and cannot be tolerated.

By their choice (joining an islamist terrorist group) there can be no negotiation.
Unless of course you want to make Canada into an Islamist republic.
In short - they want to run things, globally - according to islamic law.
Your bank would not exist under islamic law.
Israel would not exist under Islamic law.
Elections (as we know them)would not exist under Islamic law.  
I could go on and on.

There are individual exceptions - Some Taliban members can go home
if they want.  

At least, that's how I view it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (17 May 2007)

KaptKain said:
			
		

> NP, welll when others can say to hang peeps fer treason right off, yet I cant point out something I see EVERYDAY in another nations culture.....



Don't push me, Sunshine.......


----------



## George Wallace (20 May 2007)

Here is another look at the CPA by Leonard Stern, from the Ottawa Citizen, and reprinted under the Fair Dealings Act:



> *A funny kind of peace*
> 
> Leonard Stern, The Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Saturday, May 19, 2007
> ...



[EDIT to include LINK below]

LINK


----------



## Vash13 (20 May 2007)

That's a good article George Wallace.  An interesting perspective on the etymology of names.  I think that the seemingly lack of 'conflicts of interest' that by all rights should exist between the leftist and the 'Islamists', should raise a warning flag immediately.  Breaking the law or no 'breaking the law', these people should be investigated thoroughly, if not have charges laid against them for supporting terrorist ideals.  I'd like to think out intelligence community has enough credit to itself that an investigation is underway already.


----------



## Greymatters (21 May 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Political extremists are savvy marketers. During the Cold War, Stalin's agents in the U.S. called themselves the American-Soviet friendship movement. They of course didn't want to build friendships but to bring communist rule to the Americas. On the radical right, white supremacists typically have the word "heritage" in their organizations' names. "Heritage" has a positive connotation and hides the organization's true nature.



The actual purpose of these types of organizations was not to become a ruling party, but to use it as a 'neutral forum' that would attract people with 'open minds' who may be sympathetic to the cause.  These people could then subsequently be appraoched, assessed as to what types of information they have access to, or what services they can provide.  In the end, they are used as tools and discarded when no longer useful.


----------



## medaid (22 May 2007)

KaptKain said:
			
		

> Well, ya better charge me for treason then.
> I am 100% against the actions that ANY terrorist group does that is harm mentally/physically/financially to any person/organization/nation.
> BUT, theres always back doors to any organization to "secretly" hold peaceful talks to try to resolve any violent/political motives/actions they do on a daily basis. If the outcome can be less hostility/killing innocent people, and both sides getting "something" they want, I am ALL FOR IT!



The other side wants only one thing. The destruction of the Western civilization, it's ideals, it's beliefs, it's religion, it's culture it goes on and on and on... 

What do we want? To stop them from killing us off, and spreading the terror, their curbing and restricting of human rights...

SO, I ask you my learned Kaptain, where do you see the both sides getting 'something' that they could possibly want? Sine both goals are polar opposites to the Nth degree. I don't know, maybe you can fill your profile out at the same time so, not only I but WE, can get a vague idea of WHO you ARE, and WHERE your views come from...

Regards.

MT.


----------



## Emenince Grise (22 May 2007)

GAP said:
			
		

> I wonder how many have "charity status" or some form of recognition/status that could be hurt by these actions



The CPA makes it clear on their web site that they are *NOT* a charitable non-profit, because of their advocacy status. 

http://www.acp-cpa.ca/en/donate.html



> ****Please note that while the CPA is a registered non-profit, our focus on advocacy means that we do not qualify for charitable status under Canadian law. As such, we cannot issue charitable receipts for tax purposes.



There are strict limits on the amount of money which can be spent on advocacy by a charitable non-profit.


----------



## Emenince Grise (22 May 2007)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> How many of those people who went over there are on welfare, EI or other government handout and therefore not looking for work?  If any of them were, they should be cut off immediately and taxpayers should be refunded. Any union or other organization that may have funded the trip should have their books examined and if necessary they should be prosecuted for financing terrorism.



I wasn't aware that being on Ontario Works, ODSP or being a union member precluded one from a) thinking b) holding an opinion, even if might be contrary to another person's. And I wasn't aware that receiving money from social assistance programs laid a particular responsibility upon any person other than to abide by the requirements of that program. Normally that does not require accountability to the taxpayer but does require one to keep to the regulations of the program. 

That being said, having significant familiarity with social assistance programs in Ontario, I can say with confidence those who are attempting to perpetrate fraud are a) a very, very small number or b) truly desperate and unable to survive on the pittance available to them. Could you survive on $560/month for all your needs? And could you travel to a foreign country on such an amount? Could you even afford a passport? 

Unfortunately these are the myths and unfounded prejudices people on OW and ODSP face on a daily basis. 

No. Looking at the names of allied organizations with the CFP, I see the usual gang of Leftists. Most of them have been around for years.


----------



## Greymatters (22 May 2007)

KaptKain said:
			
		

> BUT, I am sure theres a few there from these "terrorist" groups that actually want PEACEFUL remedies to the situations at hand. Such as members who lost ALL their children/grandchildren/spouse to it and don't want to see it continue.



Actually, no.  Members of violent groups who want peaceful solutions create a splinter organization, usually with a new name.  An example would be like how Sinn Fein was seperate from the IRA. You have no credibility trying to talk about peace if you remain part of the violent force you claim not to support.



			
				KaptKain said:
			
		

> BUT, theres always back doors to any organization to "secretly" hold peaceful talks to try to resolve any violent/political motives/actions they do on a daily basis. If the outcome can be less hostility/killing innocent people, and both sides getting "something" they want, I am ALL FOR IT!



True but I dont see how your 'secret' methods explain the activities at this public event....not very 'secret' is it?


----------



## JBP (22 May 2007)

Why couldn't we have 'accidentally' dropped a big bomb on the meeting place???

Maybe a bad idea, but I think it might have solved some issues...


----------



## Danjanou (22 May 2007)

Emenince Grise said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that being on Ontario Works, ODSP or being a union member precluded one from a) thinking b) holding an opinion, even if might be contrary to another person's. And I wasn't aware that receiving money from social assistance programs laid a particular responsibility upon any person other than to abide by the requirements of that program. Normally that does not require accountability to the taxpayer but does require one to keep to the regulations of the program.
> 
> That being said, having significant familiarity with social assistance programs in Ontario, I can say with confidence those who are attempting to perpetrate fraud are a) a very, very small number or b) truly desperate and unable to survive on the pittance available to them. Could you survive on $560/month for all your needs? And could you travel to a foreign country on such an amount? Could you even afford a passport?
> 
> ...



OK as the site's resident SME on OWA, ODSP and related subjects if I may.

First of all lets separate Ontario Works (OW), the new name for welfare, from Ontario Disability Support Program as they are two separate programs with different criteria for eligibility both initially and ongoing. In theory someone legitimately in receipt of ODSP probably would not be well enough for the trip in the first place. However with them it's more dotting the eyes and crossing the tees that determine if you're granted not how disabled you are.

I don't know where you get $560, by the way as that number doesn't fit into any of the OW schedules I'm presently looking at so I'm presuming you used an average, rather that just pull it out of your fifth point of contact.

Fraud exists in the OW system and more than you would think. Dependent on Municipality it probably runs at 5-10% which is a lot less than during the Rae years, but still when you consider the size of the rolls a rather significant number of persons. Would we tolerate that many convenience store thieves? Yes there may be mitigating circumstances in many of these cases, hence the reason they are often not dealt with via the criminal courts system but rather through civil/administrative means. However it is still a criminal act.

More prevalent these days is milking the system. While there are plenty of cases of individuals who have spent a long time at it and basically devote themselves to gaming the system to maximize what they can take from it, they are in the minority. As an aside they're actually quite pathetic too as the time and effort spent to be honest could be better utilized and even a minimum wage survival job” would often be better financially and otherwise for them.

Most of the milking though is through organized groups, the recent "special diet" scams organized by OCAP in Toronto being the best know example. 

Which leads me back to your original statements. As there is plenty of cooperation between the usual suspects in the far left groups, tactics such as how to milk the system are shared. This would enable someone to score the funds for a Passport, plane ticket either directly or more likely under the auspices of the agency/group.

As for whether a person on OW is allowed to attend such a function outside. Yes technically, however they would need prior approval from the administrator as technically their benefits are issued on the presumption that they are in their municipality actively engaged in whatever approved activity they have agreed to conduct to allow them to exit form the system. Of course this presumes that they told the Administrator where they were going in the first place which I doubt.

Finally there is a precedent for the misuse of the welfare rolls in Canada for such ends. During the early 1980’s The Anarchist group Direct Action, more commonly known as the Squamish Five admitted that they committed welfare fraud to obtain funds. Their justification was that they were too busy bomb making etc to hold don jobs. In the early 1990’s the Tamil Tigers developed an elaborate welfare fraud scheme in Toronto that extorted local Tamil’s to raise funds for their organization.

In short is in possible some of these frolickers in the shallow end of the gene pool who went to break bread with those we are at war with are in receipt of Government assistance? It would not surprise me in the slightest. Were they allowed to do so? In a word, nope. Will there be any repercussions?  I doubt it.


----------



## Emenince Grise (22 May 2007)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> OK as the site's resident SME on OWA, ODSP and related subjects if I may.



And I am also relatively conversant with OW and ODSP as I interact with both recipients and local officials on a regular (i.e. weekly and often daily) basis. 



> First of all lets separate Ontario Works (OW), the new name for welfare, from Ontario Disability Support Program as they are two separate programs with different criteria for eligibility both initially and ongoing. In theory someone legitimately in receipt of ODSP probably would not be well enough for the trip in the first place. However with them it's more dotting the eyes and crossing the tees that determine if you're granted not how disabled you are.



Agreed they are two different programs with two different target groups. However, I have found recipients of ODSP are often quite capable of many things. 



> I don't know where you get $560, by the way as that number doesn't fit into any of the OW schedules I'm presently looking at so I'm presuming you used an average, rather that just pull it out of your fifth point of contact.



Correct. It's a reasonable figure to use. It is not intended to 100% accurate, Feel free to provide the exact figure if you have it available. My point is that it is impossible for a single person to live on anything approaching the OW schedule. 



> Fraud exists in the OW system and more than you would think. Dependent on Municipality it probably runs at 5-10% which is a lot less than during the Rae years, but still when you consider the size of the rolls a rather significant number of persons.



Granted, but from officials in our county (Grey) the amount of fraud has decreased. According to this, 



> Q: How many people were convicted of welfare fraud this year?
> 
> A: In December 2001, there were 682,862 people receiving social assistance in Ontario. In 2000-2001, Ontario investigated 52,582 social assistance recipients for fraud. Only 430 people were criminally convicted of welfare fraud. (Source: Ministry of Community, Family and Children's Services).



http://dawn.thot.net/Kimberly_Rogers/wb-qa.html

the amount is much smaller. More recent statistics are welcome. 



> Would we tolerate that many convenience store thieves? Yes there may be mitigating circumstances in many of these cases, hence the reason they are often not dealt with via the criminal courts system but rather through civil/administrative means. However it is still a criminal act.



When it is driven by humger or desperation, those mitigating circumstances have a significant bearing. 



> More prevalent these days is milking the system. While there are plenty of cases of individuals who have spent a long time at it and basically devote themselves to gaming the system to maximize what they can take from it, they are in the minority. As an aside they're actually quite pathetic too as the time and effort spent to be honest could be better utilized and even a minimum wage survival job” would often be better financially and otherwise for them.



I disagree. What is not being asked is if the system is sufficient in the first place. From my years of experience, including the "salad days" of the Rae government, it is not. 



> Most of the milking though is through organized groups, the recent "special diet" scams organized by OCAP in Toronto being the best know example.




OCAP got the headlines, but the information was/is also made available through government-funded Community Legal Clinics and Legal Aid Ontario.

http://www.incomesecurity.org/documents/ODSP-OWBenefits-UpdatedOctober2006.ppt



> Which leads me back to your original statements. As there is plenty of cooperation between the usual suspects in the far left groups, tactics such as how to milk the system are shared. This would enable someone to score the funds for a Passport, plane ticket either directly or more likely under the auspices of the agency/group.



Possible. But absent proof... 



> As for whether a person on OW is allowed to attend such a function outside. Yes technically, however they would need prior approval from the administrator as technically their benefits are issued on the presumption that they are in their municipality actively engaged in whatever approved activity they have agreed to conduct to allow them to exit form the system. Of course this presumes that they told the Administrator where they were going in the first place which I doubt.



Depends. The system is currently slow enough and obtuse enough that one would probably not even worry. BTW, it might be possible to make a Charter argument on restriction of freedom of movement... but that's for a lawyer to explore. 



> Finally there is a precedent for the misuse of the welfare rolls in Canada for such ends. During the early 1980’s The Anarchist group Direct Action, more commonly known as the Squamish Five admitted that they committed welfare fraud to obtain funds. Their justification was that they were too busy bomb making etc to hold don jobs. In the early 1990’s the Tamil Tigers developed an elaborate welfare fraud scheme in Toronto that extorted local Tamil’s to raise funds for their organization.



And absent a criminal charge in the case we are discussion, raising such questions is disingenious at best and highly judgemental at worst. Most people who come to my office on ODSP and OW are not schemers, fraudsters or criminals. They are people who need more of a hand up than a hand out. I have found if I treat them with dignity they respond with dignity. 



> In short is in possible some of these frolickers in the shallow end of the gene pool who went to break bread with those we are at war with are in receipt of Government assistance? It would not surprise me in the slightest. Were they allowed to do so? In a word, nope. Will there be any repercussions?  I doubt it.



And absent any proof, it's idle speculation.... one that does no dignity to either the poor in this country or the disabled. or union members.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 May 2007)

With all due respect, something tells me you don't see the same "caliber" of recipient that Danjanou and I have the *cough* pleasure of dealing with..........different experiences make different outlooks.

Case in point......you do know just about every hooker and drug dealer are on the dole?  Makes for a nice little supplement and keeps the tax man away.


----------



## Boxkicker (22 May 2007)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> The Canadian Peace Alliance...... Quelle surprise! :
> About 10 years age I was assaulted by a member of Peace Now on my own door step for voicing the opinion that NATO was justified by it's actions in the former Yugoslavia viz the Kosovo bombing /invasion.
> Sucker punch or not he could barely stagger off under his own power and friends who had been pretty verbally threatening became some what quiet when when I introduced him to my sidewalk...... and my lawn ...and my fence  and the city's sidewalk and the ..... well you know how it goes.


 
  Excellent, what a Joly Good show my man.


----------



## Greymatters (23 May 2007)

Emenince Grise said:
			
		

> Possible. But absent proof...



Too many of your comments conclude with this line of reasoning.  Just because you yourself are unaware of something doesnt mean it doesnt exist or isnt true.


----------



## Emenince Grise (24 May 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> With all due respect, something tells me you don't see the same "caliber" of recipient that Danjanou and I have the *cough* pleasure of dealing with..........different experiences make different outlooks.
> 
> Case in point......you do know just about every hooker and drug dealer are on the dole?  Makes for a nice little supplement and keeps the tax man away.



Yes. I know a number of them in this city. Some have been through rehab like it's a revolving door. Some make it. Some don't. Some have AIDS. Some don't. But not everyone on OW or ODSP is a hooker or a drug addict, either.


----------



## Emenince Grise (24 May 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Too many of your comments conclude with this line of reasoning.  Just because you yourself are unaware of something doesnt mean it doesnt exist or isnt true.



My point is just that with no evidence that the CPA are on OW or any other provincial social assistance plan, it is prejudicial to suggest that they are, based on the specific case of the Squamish Five. It's really easy to condemn people based on our prejudices. I know I do it. It's a lot harder to assess people objectively and based on evidence. Especially if they smell, aren't clean, drool or differ from my worldview in some way.


----------



## Danjanou (25 May 2007)

You know I tried I really tried I even followed my own sage advice and refrained from posting yesterday. But sometimes to quote Top Gun "I saw the shot I had to take it."  8)



> And I am also relatively conversant with OW and ODSP as I interact with both recipients and local officials on a regular (i.e. weekly and often daily) basis.



Gee I’d love to interact with them only on a weekly and occasionally daily basis. You familiar with that Grimm’s tale about the husband and wife swapping jobs for a day.



> Agreed they are two different programs with two different target groups. However, I have found recipients of ODSP are often quite capable of many things.


And so they should be, the social stigma of being labelled permanently unemployable aside but we’re off topic here.



> Correct. It's a reasonable figure to use. It is not intended to 100% accurate, Feel free to provide the exact figure if you have it available. My point is that it is impossible for a single person to live on anything approaching the OW schedule.



Single person basic rate maximum $548.00, plus a drug card worth approx $500.00 a month in prescription costs and free emergency dental care. Going rate on the street for one in Toronto is $50.00 cash or so I’m told. I hear they go good with a bent script for percs. Add in a monthly maximum average of $250.00 for Employment related Expenses and another $250.00 max for Special Diet for a single and in theory one can survive especially with casual income either declared or not.. Rates go up proportionately for families. This includes the whopping 3% increase last year, another 2% is slated for the Fall, probably coincidentally just before the election.



> Granted, but from officials in our county (Grey) the amount of fraud has decreased. According to this,
> 
> http://dawn.thot.net/Kimberly_Rogers/wb-qa.html
> 
> the amount is much smaller. More recent statistics are welcome.



Oh I learned how to play with stats in higher reading and writing school too. The numbers you quote give approx 12% Province wide were investigated. In many cases charges were not laid as it would be prohibitive to do so. The cost of a criminal proceeding was more than the fraud, Easier and more effective to attempt to recover the funds via administrative process.

Besides Provincial averages and/or states from a rural county out in cottage country compared to Downtown TO are like comparing apples and oranges. What are the numbers of meth addicts and HIV infected crack whores you have up there compared to the population as a whole. For that matter what’s your numbers like vis avis decent large single parent refugee families trying to get off the system.



> When it is driven by humger or desperation, those mitigating circumstances have a significant bearing.



Something that I assure you is taken into account when deciding to prosecute or not. See my previous point.



> I disagree. What is not being asked is if the system is sufficient in the first place. From my years of experience, including the "salad days" of the Rae government, it is not.



Actually things were worse for the poor under Uncle Bobby. Mind if you could stick your muzzle into the poverty trough he created you were set for life or at least a few years. The only jobs created with Jobs Ontario were the various levels of brokers, sub brokers and sub sub brokers to administer it. They should have stayed with it’s original name Jobs Incentive Program (JIP). OW is flawed and has been gamed and abused but it does work better.



> OCAP got the headlines, but the information was/is also made available through government-funded Community Legal Clinics and Legal Aid Ontario.



Of course they found the loopholes. OCAP may be arrogant but no one accuses them of being stupid. It was similar to the Osgood hall Law student a few years back who wrote a treatise on how to defend against welfare fraud during the zero tolerance days. It was a very popular document among several downtown TO law offices as I recall. Interesting read, but I would have concentrated more on hard details and less on political motivated filler myself Maybe the movie will be better?  



> Possible. But absent proof...



This phrase is starting to get overused here. I guess one could say absent proof there is no God, actually some do, maybe I’m wasting my time in Church on Sundays. I could worship my nine iron.



> Depends. The system is currently slow enough and obtuse enough that one would probably not even worry. BTW, it might be possible to make a Charter argument on restriction of freedom of movement... but that's for a lawyer to explore.



Well actually the system ain’t that slow or it isn’t if those running it are on the ball. And it’s not a violation of one’s charter rights to attempt to enforce terms of a contract as far as I know. OW recipients receive assistance from the municipality they reside in and are required to participate in whatever approved programs are set up by said municipality and/or the Provincial government. Failing to do so including not receiving prior approval to leave said municipality temporarily can be considered grounds for cancellation of benefits.



> And absent a criminal charge in the case we are discussion, raising such questions is disingenious at best and highly judgemental at worst. Most people who come to my office on ODSP and OW are not schemers, fraudsters or criminals. They are people who need more of a hand up than a hand out. I have found if I treat them with dignity they respond with dignity.



But were not talking about most people here, just a specific few. As it is I’m not quite sure if Brett Taylor, Judy Hanson and their fellow travellers were charged with welfare fraud or not. However considering the numerous weapons charges, and the blowing up of several Vancouver stores, BC Hydro substations and the Litton plant in TO, I’m sure such charges if any were pretty far down on the docket. As for the Tigers charges were laid, and that particular little fund raising technique/extortion of fearful refugee familes isn’t being used now.



> And absent any proof, it's idle speculation.... one that does no dignity to either the poor in this country or the disabled.or union members.



There's that phrase again. As a rule I adhere to the rules taught to me by my parents, treat everyone with respect and dignity until given cause to do otherwise. That even goes for sanctimonious anonymous Internet posters.

Actually it’s not idle speculation. What part of the “I’m the resident SME in this field” escaped you? For obvious reason including we' re off topic here I’m not providing more details over these means. You can either accept I do what I’m talking about or not. The site owner and/or the other staff will confirm my bonafides in this area. 

Abusing a system set up to help alleviate those less fortunate than the rest of society whether for so called political reason or just personal gain is the real disservice and damage to dignity, mind that’s just my thoughts on the matter.



> Yes. I know a number of them in this city. Some have been through rehab like it's a revolving door. Some make it. Some don't. Some have AIDS. Some don't. But not everyone on OW or ODSP is a hooker or a drug addict, either.



And no one said they were, just like no one is implying oh I don’t know that all members of the legal profession are pompous bloodsucking wastes of breathable oxygen. Some maybe, but some are dedicated caring professionals. Some teachers are good, others just lazy Ritalin pushers. See where I'm going with this. 

For the reord I've dealt with persons living with HIV AIDS on a continual basis for a damn long time now and by choice including many who are addicts and/or in the sex trade. Some are some are fantastic persons dealing with a horrible situation with grace and dignity, mind so are many persons dying of cancer. Others are intolerable asshats. Same can be said for the meth addicts, coke heads, peodephiles and assorted social flotsam and jetsom that ain't hanging around your street corner I'll bet. Add in the impoverished refugees who were lied to by Papa Doc Cretin, Mr Dithers and their ilk about "yes you can be a Doctor, Enginer whatever here" and then found out surprise we were just fooling. Anyone attempting to deal in absolutes here needs to get the prescription changed on their rose coloured glasses.



> My point is just that with no evidence that the CPA are on OW or any other provincial social assistance plan, it is prejudicial to suggest that they are, based on the specific case of the Squamish Five. It's really easy to condemn people based on our prejudices. I know I do it. It's a lot harder to assess people objectively and based on evidence. Especially if they smell, aren't clean, drool or differ from my worldview in some way.



Too true, preconceived prejudices are a wonderful thing. Like someone may find it all too easy to presume that all these army.ca right wing Harper loving gun loving trailer park trash types ain’t got no compassion for the those poor downtrodden members of society. That right is reserved solely for a certain educated liberal elite with a guilt complex. Please give me a break.

Here endeth the lesson. 

Fellow mods and members my apologies for taking this one way off the tracks.


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## Greymatters (25 May 2007)

Ouch!

So... that took a while to type out, didnt it...


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## SiG_22_Qc (25 May 2007)

WOW stop this thread, if the united states learns that we harbor this Al-Qaeda-linked terrorist cell they're going to bomb/invade us. And i'm not in the mood to fight the united states army for a decade, my wife wouldn't be happy.


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## Danjanou (25 May 2007)

SiG_22_Qc said:
			
		

> WOW stop this thread, if the united states learns that we harbor this Al-Qaeda-linked terrorist cell they're going to bomb/invade us. And i'm not in the mood to fight the united states army for a decade, my wife wouldn't be happy.



Mine might if it got me off the couch ;D


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## Greymatters (26 May 2007)

SiG_22_Qc said:
			
		

> WOW stop this thread, if the united states learns that we harbor this Al-Qaeda-linked terrorist cell they're going to *bomb/invade us.* And i'm not in the mood to fight the united states army for a decade, my wife wouldn't be happy.



What...again!!??


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## FascistLibertarian (22 Aug 2007)

> just wondering historically if ur in favour of any wars?



I msged someone on this site who was writing some wierd stuff (since banned) and got this back



> I believe in rebellion against an unjust authority, but do not believe in war.  There is no such thing as a "just war".
> 
> I don't believe that firebombing Dresden and killing hundreds of thousands of people was morally right. I don't think the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was right either.  By doing those things, we display the very lack of humanity that we are supposed to be opposing.
> 
> ...



I just thinks this shows the unrealistic worldview.
If you mentioned that say the oldest Kennedy kid died in a bomber or the upper class british destoryed in ww1 I am sure he would say that these guy didnt care about the country and only wanted to advance their positions.

They also equate Dresden and Tokyo with the entire war and offer no other realistic solutions.

The main point though is that they feel no war can be 100% morally just (bc that doesnt exist) then there are no wars worth fighting.

Feel free to get rid of this if you think its pointless mods
i just kinda found it intresting.


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## Roy Harding (22 Aug 2007)

Actually - it is kind of interesting.

During my early teen years (late stages of the Vietnam War), and shortly after that war ended - I took part in protests against the Vietnam war and "Imperialist Oppression".  I had NO political knowledge worth speaking of - I just wanted to get laid - not an unusual aspiration for one that age (worked, too!!)  I was FULL of "moral indignity", and "sympathy for the downtrodden" - I was a fairly successful rabble rouser in my small circle of influence - unfortunately, I didn't have a CLUE what I was talking about (didn't matter, though - I still got laid).

As I've lived and been to places other than Canada - it's become very apparent to me that not everybody reacts to the "peace message" - many need a 20lb sledge between the eyes _before_ they can start to listen to an opposing point of view.  Others will NEVER hear the "peace message" - they just need a 5.56 hole between the eyes.

I never cease to be amazed by the level of ignorance and indignation expressed by my "fellow citizens" of Canada when the conversation turns to armed conflict.  They miss the whole point - if THAT guy wasn't shooting at ME, I wouldn't be shooting at HIM.  In fact - I'm so dismayed by that level of ignorance that I rarely engage in such conversation.


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## footsoldier32 (22 Aug 2007)

There are very few men who have been to war who really want or like war, but ironically, many of those people now understand that there is a reason for war.  While you can argue against or for it, I definitely agree with Roy on the fact that there are people out there who need to be stopped, but I rather 25mm instead of 5.56.  There will always be a bully (and I am being nice) out there who doesn't give a damn about other people or their rights and if we (as soldiers) don't try to stop it, then how can we live with ourselves.  I truly believe that it will never be stopped as a whole, and for those who believe that if we just talk to one another then we can live in peace, try looking a suicide bomber in the eye before he blows himself up.  There is no "if you go over there and I stay here, we can coexist", they want us to disappear so that they can carry on with what they believe to be right (in a perverted way).

I had a discussion with some ladies from a University once who knew that I had been overseas and they couldn't understand why Canada was not peacekeeping.  That we were just pawns of Bush.  While I wanted to get "laid" as well, I very quickly lost interest in the issue when they wanted us to talk to the TB and work it out like reasonable human beings.  They missed the fact that they are not reasonable human beings. 

Anyway, enough ranting...it does get the heartrate up though.  Cheers


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## Trooper Hale (22 Aug 2007)

Roy, you make a brilliant point! As a young bloke, the majority of my friends are at uni, and like you said, it often seems the majority of protesting is done for protesting's sake. Because thats what they're supposed to do at uni, protest something, grow their hair and eat lentils (hair growing is optional, lentils are compulsory). "Sod the truth, all wars are bad and all governments are full of fascists, burn the bastards down!"
They don't understand the ramification and they often don't have a clue what they're talking about. You can scream "George Bush is a fascist war criminal!", "No blood for Oil!" and "Howard lied about Iraq" as much as you like, it doesn't mean that you have a clue about whats going on and it definitely doesn't make life better for that little family cowering in some side street in Baghdad, waiting for some Sunni/Shiite militia unit to kick in the door and execute them. I cant stop you from yelling it, but i can lead a counter march protesting "Equal rights for gay, black whales". It'll have about as much meaning as your march.
Like you said, peace has to be a two sided thing. Saying to someone "Lets live happily together" is no good if old mate says "Bugger that, i going to smash your face in!".

Being opposed to something for the sake of it is fashionable. Like you say Roy, you protested to get a root, and you got it (well done, was she a hippy chick? ;D).
You've got to give them something tho, they are "strong in their ignorance". Any argument about Iraq with my ex was always propped up by her saying "Their were no WMD's!" and me saying "Thats because the Kurds copped them but at least we got rid of an evil dictator and his mental family of murderers". It didnt matter though, she was so fundamentally opposed to wars that even when she heard about my Canadian mates getting the chop all she could say was "Its not like you didnt expect it"....funnily enough, we broke up not long after that.

Anyway, its my view that you cant argue with close minded ignorance. We all just happen to be lucky enough to be surrounded by a public that expects everyone in the world is like them and doesnt want war.
As John Wayne says, "Life's hard, its especially hard if your stupid".


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## niceasdrhuxtable (22 Aug 2007)

I think Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian summed up my feelings pretty accurately on this subject:



> It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.



I've often had this discussion with friends of mine who are peace activists and they always espouse the view that the world would be a much better place if world leaders could just talk out their problems. I agree this would be highly desirable and some sort of utopian ideal, but I think it's massively unrealistic. I don't understand the viewpoint that discussion could magically end all world conflict. I think diplomacy and rational discussion are an important part of affairs between any groups but what it all boils down to is that one party is inevitably going to be unsatisfied with the status quo and resort to armed conflict. It's human nature and it's unavoidable.

I think this element is something that most anti-war activists just can't comprehend. The entire idea is out of their realm of understanding. Peace is a great ideal and something we should always strive for, but not preparing for war is foolish abandon.


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## Flip (22 Aug 2007)

I've always been morbidly fascinated by how "out there" the peacenik point of view is.
My desire is to find a way to explain what's going on to that crowd.
Looking for the facts is what brought me to ARMY.ca

Generally their understanding is about two sentences deep ( a headline and maybe a caption  )
and is centered on feelings.  I swapped PMs with the one who's name shall not be mentioned
again also.  Facts were of no interest to him. He is completely unaware of how he benefits from military actions of the past.
I would like to introduce "him" to a friend of mine who's mother escaped detention and execution by the Japanese
ONLY because of the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. 

My little sister just glazes over and says "why can't we all just get along?".
She can't believe what her life could become if she were not protected.

It's easier to blame our government and the US government than to understand
that there are real live bad guys in other parts of the world.

My best pitch starts with,"if something bad is happening you call the cops,right?"
My pitch is a work in progress. ;D


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## Roy Harding (22 Aug 2007)

Hale said:
			
		

> ... Like you say Roy, you protested to get a root, and you got it (well done, was she a hippy chick? ;D).
> ...



Well - one doesn't like to brag (especially 30 years later) - but the question is more properly "Were _*they*_ hippy chick*s*).

The answer is "Yes".


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## Trooper Hale (22 Aug 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Well - one doesn't like to brag (especially 30 years later) - but the question is more properly "Were _*they*_ hippy chick*s*).
> 
> The answer is "Yes".


Wow, a threesome, those '70's were a crazy time  ;D . I'm surprised you remember anything after all that acid....
Sorry, couldnt resist, i'm sure you didnt do acid and that you did "it" more then once in the 70's...

Lets PROTEST something! Who's with me? All the anti-war protesting spots are taken... anti-gun isnt till next sunday...Fascist American imperialism, hmm, thats been done to death lately...I'm scraping the bottle of the barrel here...hmm... i know! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES.....


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## Bane (22 Aug 2007)

Be careful not to conflate the 'antiwar' crowd, it is diverse; just like the 'military', 'conservative', 'liberal' crowd are all diverse.  The peace movement is not entirely made up of eighteen year old idealist hippie chicks (though I personally think that would be pretty sweet) that can't argue their way out of a paper bag.


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## Roy Harding (22 Aug 2007)

Hale said:
			
		

> Wow, a threesome, those '70's were a crazy time  ;D . I'm surprised you remember anything after all that acid....
> Sorry, couldnt resist, i'm sure you didnt do acid and that you did "it" more then once in the 70's...
> 
> Lets PROTEST something! Who's with me? All the anti-war protesting spots are taken... anti-gun isnt till next sunday...Fascist American imperialism, hmm, thats been done to death lately...I'm scraping the bottle of the barrel here...hmm... i know! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES! EQUAL RIGHTS FOR GAY BLACK WHALES.....



Who said anything about only a "three" some?

All joking aside - it is a very true fact that MANY (not all) of the young folk involved in protest movements are motivated by factors OTHER than what the protest is about.

This has been the norm for thousands of years - I don't see it changing any time soon.  Those currently involved in such protests will deny it, of course - but ask them again in 30 years.

As a result of my personal experience (and that of others whom I respect) I don't give a lot of credence to student protests - basically, I don't believe they understand whatever cause they purport to support.

Roy


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## DaveTee (23 Aug 2007)

Any protestor who is a student in university (it seems most of them come from there) must not be much of a student. If you're not doing homework, your working to pay tuition (which is lots of $$$). If you're not working, you're out partying. Any time other than this is occupied by sleep or bussing to these aforementioned tasks. So how do these students find time to go throw rocks at cops and block traffic? Say what you will of their lousy political, hygenic, social, world views and poor grasp or reality, they rock at time management.


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## Danjanou (23 Aug 2007)

DaveTee said:
			
		

> Say what you will of their lousy political, hygenic, social, world views and poor grasp or reality, they rock at time management.



Not really most are professional students in the 7th or 8th year of their BA program. :


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## time expired (23 Aug 2007)

The thing about revolutionaries is the have no understanding of history,
if they did they would realise that if the get their wish and the revolution
should come to pass they would be the first against the wall.Stalin did it,
Mao did it,even Castro did it,Ho Chi Min was a little smarter and let the
Americans do it for him by launching the Tet offensive and getting rid of 
the Viet Cong before he took over the south.They do not seem to realise
that they are merely tools in someones political agenda,Lenin`s usefull
idiots.
                    Regards


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## Brad Sallows (23 Aug 2007)

>If you want to know what I mean, rent the movie Gandhi.

Oh, please please please please PLEASE go out and put an end to war.  Go to the Sudan and conduct a sit-down blockade of some Sudanese gun trucks, for example.  Gandhi faced down the British.  Now it's time for those who worship his principles and traditions to go face down all the other guys with guns in various parts of the world.  Go forth and obstruct them while they try to make war.  And get some sun, since you look a little pale.


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## Flip (23 Aug 2007)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >If you want to know what I mean, rent the movie Gandhi.
> 
> Oh, please please please please PLEASE go out and put an end to war.  Go to the Sudan and conduct a sit-down blockade of some Sudanese gun trucks, for example.  Gandhi faced down the British.  Now it's time for those who worship his principles and traditions to go face down all the other guys with guns in various parts of the world.  Go forth and obstruct them while they try to make war.  And get some sun, since you look a little pale.



I thought it was stupid too.
He completely misconstrued who the "characters" were and what the context was.


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## Strike (23 Aug 2007)

> So how do these students find time to go throw rocks at cops and block traffic?



They are PoliSci students who are going for extra credit!   ;D


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## Infantry_wannabe (24 Aug 2007)

It's definitely true that all peace protesters aren't 18 year old university students.

My father in law is a case study. He was a boy in Holland when the Nazis invaded. He saw random civilians pulled from his church and murdered by firing squad as retaliation for the activities of the Dutch resistance. He was in school when his classroom was blown full of holes for fun by a passing U boat. Most of his family was sent away to forced labour camps. He, not surprisingly, claims he is grateful for the Canadians who liberated him.

BUT he also says the following:
"War is never the right answer. The army should be abolished. It's a death cult."

Then, about Afghanistan: "They should pull them (the troops) all out of there. Why should we go across an ocean to save people we don't know?"

Does anyone else see irony in this?

Winston Churchill had a great quote: "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

The odd thing is he is a very nice man personally, but if anyone can figure out the mental processes, you should be given a PhD in psychology.


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## Good2Golf (24 Aug 2007)

Infantry_wannabe said:
			
		

> It's definitely true that all peace protesters aren't 18 year old university students.
> 
> My father in law is a case study. He was a boy in Holland when the Nazis invaded. He saw random civilians pulled from his church and murdered by firing squad as retaliation for the activities of the Dutch resistance. He was in school when his classroom was blown full of holes for fun by a passing U boat. Most of his family was sent away to forced labour camps. He, not surprisingly, claims he is grateful for the Canadians who liberated him.
> 
> ...



IW, that is a puzzler.  My wife's father emmigrated from The Netherlands, and both he and his family that remained in Holland were most appreciative of Canada's contribution to help free a nation "across the ocean".

The following quote is from then Dutch Minister of Defence, Mr. Frank H.G. de Grave, spoken at the 55th VE Day anniversary ceremony at the Groesbeek War Cemetary just outside of Nijmegen:



> "Veterans, for five long years, this country and much of Europe had been under a terrible shadow. Free nations had fallen. Millions cried out in the camps. Millions cried out of fear, hunger and desperation. Millions cried out for liberation. And you came for our liberation. You stood firm. You stood against ethnic violence and atrocities. You fought against tyranny. Naturally, it's impossible for the post-war generation to personally recall that moment of liberation. As the Dutch poet, G.C. Bloom wrote, "Not one of the unborn will ever appreciate freedom in quite the same way."
> 
> Our responsibility does not end at our own borders, you know that. Now we celebrate the fact that we were liberated during the Second World War and viewed from this perspective it is only logical that also today we have to stand up and fight for peace. We owe it to all those people grown out of the efforts of war. To all those people driven from their homes, brutalized, raped and murdered. We owe it to Europe. We owe it to our children. To the next generations. We owe it to ourselves."



G2G


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## DaveTee (24 Aug 2007)

Strike said:
			
		

> They are PoliSci students who are going for extra credit!   ;D



Hahah I'm in polisci as well (just transfered into it) and i hope i can argue with them all day. It'll be fun to continually prove them wrong.


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## Infantry_wannabe (24 Aug 2007)

> "Veterans, for five long years, this country and much of Europe had been under a terrible shadow. Free nations had fallen. Millions cried out in the camps. Millions cried out of fear, hunger and desperation. Millions cried out for liberation. And you came for our liberation. You stood firm. You stood against ethnic violence and atrocities. You fought against tyranny. Naturally, it's impossible for the post-war generation to personally recall that moment of liberation. As the Dutch poet, G.C. Bloom wrote, "Not one of the unborn will ever appreciate freedom in quite the same way."
> 
> Our responsibility does not end at our own borders, you know that. Now we celebrate the fact that we were liberated during the Second World War and viewed from this perspective it is only logical that also today we have to stand up and fight for peace. We owe it to all those people grown out of the efforts of war. To all those people driven from their homes, brutalized, raped and murdered. We owe it to Europe. We owe it to our children. To the next generations. We owe it to ourselves."



That's quite a quote. I agree 100%. I just wish I knew a way to convince more people of the wisdom of that, especially in these times.


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## Sassy (25 Aug 2007)

Wow this thread was an eye opener, I've never been fond of peace protesters because they usually look so scummy.  But  holey hanna to find out that these peaceniks from our hollowed halls of Academia are in bed with radical Islamists was a shock.  This should of been on the front page of every leading newspaper why wasn't  this reported by MSM? It should be illegal for them to even associate with known terrorist groups, they should of been detained at the airport.  It's appalling that those who are screaming the loudest "Get our troops out of Afghanistan" are also in bed with our enemy. So I wonder what is their real motivation in  having our troops recalled?  I can't articulate how much I loathe these people, the next time I read a peacenik's post I'll picture a child with a bomb strapped onto him/her in the name of Hammas.  These people should be paraded through the streets with ropes around their neck, communist traitors to this country.


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## canadianblue (25 Aug 2007)

Sassy cool it with the knee jerk comments. Every person is entitled to their opinion in Canada with regards to political issues, whether they be socialist, liberal, conservative, green, libertarian, "communist", anarchist, etc. I hope to god that I never see the day in Canada when we are parading people in the streets with "ropes around their heads" because that is not the kind of country that I want to live in, and I'm sure most on here who tend to lean to the right of the spectrum would agree with me.


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## Shec (25 Aug 2007)

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.  The antiwar crowd are still as obnoxious as they were in my day, during the Viet Nam war era, when they would lambaste us,  your quintessential and time-honoured Canadian militiamen, whose closest involvement to VN was watching the news on TV.  They were such a pain then that I can still remember a  couple of stanzas of a poem published in a magazine and written by a US Marine,  went  something like this:

_Pick up your armour and fight young man,
man if that are, 
Put down your beads and your protest signs,
your pot and LSD...

...You want your freedoms and justice, 
at least that's what you say,
defend them if you want them,
come join me in the fight today..._

I don't know if your basic 21st century druggie still takes LSD but other than that the message is still valid no??


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## Greymatters (26 Aug 2007)

There is a theory that many of the 'peace activist' / 'professional student' types can be steroetyped as those who are unable to fit into workplace culture, thus cannot find permanent jobs that can lead to careers, or, they are unable to fit into our societal culture, and remain alientated from normal everyday social groups.  Instead of looking for their ideal place to live or work, which may require leaving our country and looking elsewhere, they insist the the entire fabric of society already here be adjusted to fit their concept(s) of what society should be.


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## kommando17 (29 Aug 2007)

Those anti-war people just dont have the stones to join the CF. Half of the anti-war people I know ask me if i will goto Iraq lol. They dont even know where our troops are. I have respect for the people who actually do some reaserch on the topic, or at least know where our troops  are. If they don't *I like to correct them. I like making people look like dumbasses. lol.

Cheers


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## Roy Harding (29 Aug 2007)

kommando17 said:
			
		

> ... I like making people look like dumbasses. lol.
> 
> ...



Yes - but it isn't necessary to practice that skill on yourself, in public.


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## Loachman (30 Aug 2007)

Sassy said:
			
		

> peaceniks from our hollowed halls of Academia



What you really meant, I'm sure, was "hallowed halls", but sometimes we may wonder...


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## Emenince Grise (13 Sep 2007)

Infantry_wannabe said:
			
		

> It's definitely true that all peace protesters aren't 18 year old university students.
> 
> My father in law is a case study. He was a boy in Holland when the Nazis invaded. He saw random civilians pulled from his church and murdered by firing squad as retaliation for the activities of the Dutch resistance. He was in school when his classroom was blown full of holes for fun by a passing U boat. Most of his family was sent away to forced labour camps. He, not surprisingly, claims he is grateful for the Canadians who liberated him.
> 
> ...



I don't have a PhD in psychology, but I have seen and heard this in other people of the same generation from the Netherlands. Simply put, they were deeply traumatised by the war. Suffering extreme privation and (in once case I know of) resorting to eating a dog, the cause of their suffering is seen to be not the Germans, but war in general. In seeking to help others to avoid their suffering experience, they condemn war in general and express themselves in that particular way. I even encountered this thinking from a former member of the Dutch Resistance. He felt quite ashamed of the things he did in WW2, and suffered for it for the rest of his life.  It was only in death that he found release. We had some very interesting conversations about God and forgiveness in the last few months of his life.


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## Emenince Grise (13 Sep 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> There is a theory that many of the 'peace activist' / 'professional student' types can be steroetyped as those who are unable to fit into workplace culture, thus cannot find permanent jobs that can lead to careers, or, they are unable to fit into our societal culture, and remain alientated from normal everyday social groups.  Instead of looking for their ideal place to live or work, which may require leaving our country and looking elsewhere, they insist the the entire fabric of society already here be adjusted to fit their concept(s) of what society should be.



Many Christians also feel that way. In fact, 100 years ago, that was the driving force behind the Social Gospel movement. That led to the formation of the CCF (later the NDP). They believe the Kingdom of God can be brought to fruition in this day and time by adjusting the thinking of the people. Right Education = Right belief = The Kingdom of God. 

And you thought Islam was the only religion that wanted to change society?


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## canadianblue (13 Sep 2007)

> Many Christians also feel that way. In fact, 100 years ago, that was the driving force behind the Social Gospel movement. That led to the formation of the CCF (later the NDP). They believe the Kingdom of God can be brought to fruition in this day and time by adjusting the thinking of the people. Right Education = Right belief = The Kingdom of God.
> 
> And you thought Islam was the only religion that wanted to change society?



I think thats abit of an oversimplification of the social gospel movement. There was a large portion of society that was disturbed at the effects of unfettered capitalism, child labour, rampant poverty, racial intolerance, and chauvinism. I have no problem with people battling these evils in society as they often approach it in an ec I have no problem with people using their religion to do good, however I do have an issue when religion is used to advance the virtues of bigotry, jingoism, greed, and violence. If their was a movement similar to the Social Gospel movement in any Islamic country, I would have no problem supporting it, and the west certainly should not be concerned about it. In general looking back on history the Social Gospel movement was not a negative, I'd argue that it helped build our society as tolerant and compassionate one.


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## Emenince Grise (14 Sep 2007)

Sigs Guy said:
			
		

> I think thats abit of an oversimplification of the social gospel movement. There was a large portion of society that was disturbed at the effects of unfettered capitalism, child labour, rampant poverty, racial intolerance, and chauvinism. I have no problem with people battling these evils in society as they often approach it in an ec I have no problem with people using their religion to do good, however I do have an issue when religion is used to advance the virtues of bigotry, jingoism, greed, and violence. If their was a movement similar to the Social Gospel movement in any Islamic country, I would have no problem supporting it, and the west certainly should not be concerned about it. In general looking back on history the Social Gospel movement was not a negative, I'd argue that it helped build our society as tolerant and compassionate one.



I am not saying that the Social Gospel movement was evil. However, it did have a taint of what we would call racism and certainly pacifism. Racism in that it was believed that First Nations peoples could be educated to become "good" members of society through the Residential Schools. There was also a latent anti-Jewish and anti Catholic strain, as there  was across all Christian churches of the early part of the last century. 

One of the cores of the pacifist movement was Toronto South presbytery of the United Church of Canada (basically the United Churches of the old City of Toronto). In 1939 the presbytery voted overwhelmingly against Canada going to war against Germany. That trend continues today. There continues to be a pacifist strain in all of the Christian churches in Canada, no matter what the denomination.


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