# Boeing/Bombardier Discussion



## AlexanderM

JT told Trump, no Super Hornets.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/12/justin-trudeau-tells-donald-trump-will-block-boeing-contracts/

Mr Trudeau met the US President at the White House for talks on the North American Free Trade Agreement and said he raised the issue of Bombardier “directly”, outlining his opposition to US anti-dumping policy. “I highlighted to the president how we disagree vehemently with Commerce’s decision to bring in countervailing and anti-dumping duties against Bombardier, that we feel this is not something that is warranted and quite frankly something that we look very negatively upon,” he said after the meeting.

“The attempts by Boeing to put tens of thousands of aerospace workers out of work across Canada is not something we look on positively.”


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## Altair

So no super hornet, no F35

Which one would Canada pick then out of the 3 remaining jets?


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## AlexanderM

I'm still expecting the fleet replacement will be with the F-35. Either in the next mandate or they will frame a policy change.


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## MilEME09

Probably next mandate, though if they can't work this out by the next election, it is going to be a lot of fodder for the other parties, though really who outside this website actually cares about defense issues?


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## Rifleman62

AlexanderM said:
			
		

> JT told Trump, no Super Hornets.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/12/justin-trudeau-tells-donald-trump-will-block-boeing-contracts/
> 
> Mr Trudeau met the US President at the White House for talks on the North American Free Trade Agreement and said he raised the issue of Bombardier “directly”, outlining his opposition to US anti-dumping policy. “I highlighted to the president how we disagree vehemently with Commerce’s decision to bring in countervailing and anti-dumping duties against Bombardier, that we feel this is not something that is warranted and quite frankly something that we look very negatively upon,” he said after the meeting.
> 
> “The attempts by Boeing to put tens of thousands of aerospace workers out of work across Canada is not something we look on positively.”



In reality, Trudeau is a pipsqueak when speaking to a seasoned businessman (POTUS/bully/whatever)

Too bad what Bombardier wants sets this government's policy decisions. Insane, but Liberal eh.


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## MilEME09

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> in reality, Trudeau is a pipsqueak when speaking to a seasoned businessman (POTUS/bully/whatever)
> 
> Too bad what Bombardier wants set this government's policy decisions. Insane, but Liberal eh.



Bombardier unfortunately needs to be left to fail, and be forced to restructure, It would be a great company, if it actually had a business model that wasn't aimed at government hand outs.


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## Pencil Tech

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Bombardier unfortunately needs to be left to fail, and be forced to restructure, It would be a great company, if it actually had a business model that wasn't aimed at government hand outs.



The same could be said about Boeing.


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## quadrapiper

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> The same could be said about Boeing.


At least "our" subsidy scheme is readily visible.


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## Humphrey Bogart

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Probably next mandate, though if they can't work this out by the next election, it is going to be a lot of fodder for the other parties, though really who outside this website actually cares about defense issues?



Canadians don't care what jet we have or that we even have them.  They didn't care that the F35 was the best/worst jet, they only cared about the big price tag.


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## PuckChaser

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Canadians don't care what jet we have or that we even have them.  They didn't care that the F35 was the best/worst jet, they only cared about the big price tag.



Until they see the other big pricetags, unfortunately. Support for the CAF is strong until they actually see the amount of 0s on the price of proper equipment.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Breaking News on CTV Montreal newscast, everyone: Airbus acquires majority stake in C-Series. 

Details to follow, but creating this marriage is certainly not what Boeing had in mind when they started their attempt at breaking Bombardier.


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## Rifleman62

Some details:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bombardier-airbus-c-series-1.4357567
*
Europe's Airbus to buy majority stake in Bombardier CSeries program* - The Canadian Press - Oct 16, 2017 6:42 PM ET
_CSeries headquarters will remain in Montreal area, 2nd assembly line will be set up in Alabama_

European aircraft giant Airbus Group is buying a majority stake in Bombardier's CSeries program.

The two aircraft manufacturers announced the partnership Monday evening, weeks after the United States announced 300 per cent preliminary duties on exports of the aircraft following a complaint from Airbus rival Boeing.

The CSeries headquarters will remain in the Montreal area but a second assembly line for the 100- to 150-seat plane will be set up at an Airbus facility in Alabama.

The partnership is expected to result in significant CSeries production cost savings by leveraging Airbus's supply chain expertise.

Airbus will acquire a 50.01 per cent interest in the CSeries Aircraft Limited Partnership, which manufactures and sells the plane.

Bombardier will own 31 per cent and the Quebec government's investment agency will hold 19 per cent.



https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bombardier-sells-majority-stake-in-c-series-to-airbus/article36610340/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

*Bombardier sells majority stake in C Series to Airbus* - 16 Oct 17


Bombardier Inc. has struck an agreement to sell control of its marquee C Series airliner program to Europe's Airbus in a surprise move that gives the Canadian plane maker more firepower in a battle against Boeing Co.

Under an agreement announced Monday evening, Airbus said it will buy a 50.01 per cent interest in the C Series limited partnership and provide procurement, sales and marketing and customer support expertise to the airliner program. Bombardier's stake would be 31 per cent and Quebec will own about 19 per cent.

"I have no doubt that our partnership with Bombardier will boost sales and the value of this program tremendously," Airbus chief executive Tom Enders said in a statement. "Not only will this partnership secure the C Series and its industrial operations in Canada, the U.K., and China but we also bring new jobs to the U.S. Airbus will benefit from strengthening its product portfolio in the high-volume single-aisle market."

The partnership should more than double the value of the C Series program and ensure the airliner realizes its full potential, Bombardier chief executive Alain Bellemare said.

No cash is changing hands in the deal and the C Series partnership assumes no debt as part of the transaction, the partners said



http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/airlines/europes-airbus-to-buy-majority-stake-in-bombardiers-cseries-bombardier
*
Europe's Airbus to buy majority stake in Bombardier's CSeries* - Alicja Siekierska - October 16, 2017
_The agreement brings together Airbus' global reach and scale with Bombardier's newest, state-of-the-art jet aircraft family_

Bombardier Inc. announced late Monday that rival aerospace giant Airbus SE will acquire a majority stake of the CSeries program, a major strategic move that comes as the company faces the prospect of permanent massive duties in the U.S.

Under the agreement, which was signed Monday, Airbus will acquire a 50.1 per cent stake in the CSeries program. Bombardier will now own approximately 31 per cent, while Investissement Quebec will own 19 per cent.

“Airbus is the perfect partner for us, Quebec and Canada,” Bombardier chief executive Alain Bellemare said in a statement.

“Their global scale, strong customer relationship and operational expertise are key ingredients for unleashing the full value of the C Series.”

The partnership comes as Bombardier grapples with 300 per cent duties on U.S. imports of its C-Series jet, thanks to a petition filed with the U.S. Department of Commerce and U.S. International Trade Commission by its rival, the Boeing Co.

The Commerce Department imposed hefty duties against Bombardier, issuing a 220 per cent countervailing duty and 80 per cent anti-dumping duty, largely over the sale of 75 CSeries jets to Delta Air Lines Inc.

On a conference call with reporters Monday, Bellemare and Airbus chief executive Tom Enders said the partnership was not motivated by the ongoing trade dispute with Boeing.

“This is win-win for everybody,” Enders said in a statement. “The C Series, with its state-of-the-art design and great economics, is a great fit with our existing single-aisle aircraft family and rapidly extends our product offering into a fast growing market sector. I have no doubt that our partnership with Bombardier will boost sales and the value of this programme tremendously.”

Bellemare added that the company will continue to fight the trade case against Boeing, stressing that there was strategic value to joining forces with Airbus.

“We are confident that we will have huge success with this program moving forward,” Bellemare said.

According to the press release, the companies expect “significant C Series production costs savings” as a result of leveraging Airbus’ supply chain expertise.

The joint venture’s headquarters and “primary assembly line” will remain in Quebec, but Airbus will add C Series production at its factory in Alabama to serve U.S. customers.

The deal came following earlier in the day that Bombardier was looking for investors and considering selling parts of its aerospace business.

According to a Bloomberg report citing sources familiar with the matter, Bombardier had been considering a disposal of assets, including its Q400 turboprop and CRJ regional-jet unit.

In a note to clients released Monday, Credit Suisse analyst Robert Spingarn said there was “some logic” in Bombardier either pursuing a possible sale of its CRJ or Q400 program, or looking at a joint venture that may involve the CSeries, particularly given the trade tariffs imposed by the U.S. government.

The previously beleaguered CSeries program — which was both overdue and over-budget for years — has been a crucial part of the chief executive Alain Bellemare’s five-year turnaround plan aimed at improving cash flows and increasing profit growth.

The Quebec government acquired a 49.5 per cent stake in the CSeries program for $1-billion in 2015.


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## MarkOttawa

UK worked hard on this, Belfast jobs?  So now RCAF Typhoons via BAE?

Mark
Ottawa


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## Kirkhill

Sentinel patrol aircraft?


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## dapaterson

I suspect that Bombardier's 30% of the joint venture with Airbus will be worth more than their previous 50% - Airbus has clout that Bombardier does not.


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## AlexanderM

A shot across the bow of the good ship America First! I would imagine that JT knew about this prior to his meeting with Trump and perhaps gave the go ahead based on what happened in that meeting. I am of course just speculating. Now if America First messes with the C Series or does not relent the response will come from Canada, the UK and the EU.


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## MilEME09

AlexanderM said:
			
		

> A shot across the bow of the good ship America First! I would imagine that JT knew about this prior to his meeting with Trump and perhaps gave the go ahead based on what happened in that meeting. I am of course just speculating. Now if America First messes with the C Series or does not relent the response will come from Canada, the UK and the EU.



Could Bombardier get around the duties though by assembling the delta order and future US orders at this Alabama line that is being set up?


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## AlexanderM

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Could Bombardier get around the duties though by assembling the delta order and future US orders at this Alabama line that is being set up?


I'm not entirely certain but if the C Series sold in America are manufactured in America then they would not be imports, so I would imagine that would make a difference.


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## MilEME09

AlexanderM said:
			
		

> I'm not entirely certain but if the C Series sold in America are manufactured in America then they would not be imports, so I would imagine that would make a difference.



Then if so airbus just gave bombardier a loop hole in the duties placed on them, the question now is, how are we going to scratch airbus's back?


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## AlexanderM

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Then if so airbus just gave bombardier a loop hole in the duties placed on them, the question now is, how are we going to scratch airbus's back?


More orders for Airbus in the Canadian market perhaps.


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## AlexanderM

So here is the update from CNN.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/16/news/companies/airbus-buys-majority-stake-bombardier-cseries/index.html

Airbus denied that its goal was to circumvent any possible tariffs the U.S. Government may levy on the advanced new jet's importation, but with the Airbus acquisition public and assembly line plans unveiled, the C Series will now be "made in the U.S.A."


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## SeaKingTacco

It makes you wonder why Boeing did not think to go to Bombardier with a bag of money, first.

Now, to stop C-Series sales in the US, they will have to convince someone in Congress/the White House to put a bunch of Trump voters in Alabama out of work.

The mind boggles.


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## dimsum

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> It makes you wonder why Boeing did not think to go to Bombardier with a bag of money, first.
> 
> Now, to stop C-Series sales in the US, they will have to convince someone in Congress/the White House to put a bunch of Trump voters in Alabama out of work.
> 
> The mind boggles.



Hubris?


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## Pencil Tech

AlexanderM said:
			
		

> A shot across the bow of the good ship America First! I would imagine that JT knew about this prior to his meeting with Trump and perhaps gave the go ahead based on what happened in that meeting. I am of course just speculating. Now if America First messes with the C Series or does not relent the response will come from Canada, the UK and the EU.



Full respect to JT for this.


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## SeaKingTacco

I am not a JT or a Bombardier fan particularly, but I do admire the shear Machivellian nature of this.

Credit where credit is due.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Extremely doubtful that JT would have had any foreknowledge. The Federal government has only ever given Bombardier either direct subsidies for specific programs in research and development or for employment development purposes or straight out commercial (even at incredibly low rates) loans. neither of these entitled them to any say or insight into the operation of the corporation. According to reports here in Montreal, there were rumours of these talks for months in the industry insiders world, so the discussions apparently pre-date the Boeing fracas (in fact, if the rumours came to the ears of Boeing, perhaps it explains why they did what they did: get your punches in while you still can, type of thing). However, the Federal civil service has problems collating, analyzing and briefing their political masters on actual facts that have occurred. To keep track and inform them of rumours even industry insiders couldn't confirm is well beyond their capacity.

The Quebec government, on the other hand, was invested into the C-Series for 49% and, as a result here, have been diluted to 19% (16%?), so they would have had to be informed and agree to the operation in advance in view of their dilution. They made, to my mind, the right call. Better 19% of a large pie than 49% of a small one.

If, as reported, the discussions pre-date Boeing's action, then I would agree that avoiding tariff was not Airbus' prime motivation in acquiring a stake in the C-Series. Again, to my mind, a greater motivation would have been to acquire the next level of product, just below the sizes made by Airbus, to have a more complete offering, while in the long term keeping any attempt (by Bombardier) to go into their actual size market. Building in the US (which Airbus already does because they know that it is always easier to sell to the Americans if you can claim that you make it there) and as result avoiding the import tariff is just a bonus resulting from the recent actions of Boeing. 

Moreover, I don't think this will be a problem for Trump: He'll simply claim that making the plane in Alabama instead of Canada just proves that he cares for American work and that only when you build in America can you really be competitive on price, as American workers are just the best and most efficient in the world; then he will claim that if his administration had not imposed tariff on "cheating" Canadians, the work would not have come to the US, where it belong by birthright - and claim another win (you'll be sick of winning!).


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## dapaterson

The market has voted: Bombardier's stock is up 20% this morning.  Up 250% from its low in Feb 2016.


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## Kirkhill

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> .....
> 
> Moreover, I don't think this will be a problem for Trump: He'll simply claim that making the plane in Alabama instead of Canada just proves that he cares for American work and that only when you build in America can you really be competitive on price, as American workers are just the best and most efficient in the world; then he will claim that if his administration had not imposed tariff on "cheating" Canadians, the work would not have come to the US, where it belong by birthright - and claim another win (you'll be sick of winning!).



 :cheers:

And in a "right to work" state.....


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## Pencil Tech

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Extremely doubtful that JT would have had any foreknowledge.



Extremely doubtful he wouldn't have got blamed if it all went sour.


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## AlexanderM

Just announced on Global News BC that Canada and Mexico will jointly reject US NAFTA demands later today in joint press release.


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## dimsum

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The market has voted: Bombardier's stock is up 20% this morning.  Up 250% from its low in Feb 2016.



Finally, some benefit for me doggedly holding onto those few shares I bought almost a decade ago  >


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## Altair

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Extremely doubtful that JT would have had any foreknowledge. The Federal government has only ever given Bombardier either direct subsidies for specific programs in research and development or for employment development purposes or straight out commercial (even at incredibly low rates) loans. neither of these entitled them to any say or insight into the operation of the corporation. According to reports here in Montreal, there were rumours of these talks for months in the industry insiders world, so the discussions apparently pre-date the Boeing fracas (in fact, if the rumours came to the ears of Boeing, perhaps it explains why they did what they did: get your punches in while you still can, type of thing). However, the Federal civil service has problems collating, analyzing and briefing their political masters on actual facts that have occurred. To keep track and inform them of rumours even industry insiders couldn't confirm is well beyond their capacity.
> 
> The Quebec government, on the other hand, was invested into the C-Series for 49% and, as a result here, have been diluted to 19% (16%?), so they would have had to be informed and agree to the operation in advance in view of their dilution. They made, to my mind, the right call. Better 19% of a large pie than 49% of a small one.
> 
> If, as reported, the discussions pre-date Boeing's action, then I would agree that avoiding tariff was not Airbus' prime motivation in acquiring a stake in the C-Series. Again, to my mind, a greater motivation would have been to acquire the next level of product, just below the sizes made by Airbus, to have a more complete offering, while in the long term keeping any attempt (by Bombardier) to go into their actual size market. Building in the US (which Airbus already does because they know that it is always easier to sell to the Americans if you can claim that you make it there) and as result avoiding the import tariff is just a bonus resulting from the recent actions of Boeing.
> 
> Moreover, I don't think this will be a problem for Trump: He'll simply claim that making the plane in Alabama instead of Canada just proves that he cares for American work and that only when you build in America can you really be competitive on price, as American workers are just the best and most efficient in the world; then he will claim that if his administration had not imposed tariff on "cheating" Canadians, the work would not have come to the US, where it belong by birthright - and claim another win (you'll be sick of winning!).


This is one of the cases where things accidentally fall into place, but Bombardier and JT come up roses, Trump can claim a victory, and Boeing gets egg on its face.


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## Kirkhill

Some might be inclined to say that Adam Smith is vindicated, accidentally.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Adam Smith is vindicated, accidentally.



 :rofl:


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## Underway

Altair said:
			
		

> This is one of the cases where things accidentally fall into place, but Bombardier and JT come up roses, Trump can claim a victory, and Boeing gets egg on its face.



I don't think JT is going to come up roses.  The opposition is going to go all out on this to paint the loss of Canadian manufacturing and Canadian ingenuity to a US corporate giant... again... because of his incompetence.  What it does do is screws Boeing over big time, gives Bombardier and big ally in their fight with Brazil and access to much larger corporate pockets to sell the plane pretty much anywhere.  This plane is revolutionary in many ways and will take over the industry in about 15 years.

OGBD's post earlier hit the nail on the head in every way.


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## Altair

Underway said:
			
		

> I don't think JT is going to come up roses.  The opposition is going to go all out on this to paint the loss of Canadian manufacturing and Canadian ingenuity to a US corporate giant... again... because of his incompetence.  What it does do is screws Boeing over big time, gives Bombardier and big ally in their fight with Brazil and access to much larger corporate pockets to sell the plane pretty much anywhere.  This plane is revolutionary in many ways and will take over the industry in about 15 years.
> 
> OGBD's post earlier hit the nail on the head in every way.


The main manufacturing line will still be in Quebec even with the planes for the US carriers manufactured in Alabama, or is that incorrect?

Also, how does Canada lose manufacturing and canadian ingenuity to a US corporate giant? Airbus is French.


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## AlexanderM

All I can find on NAFTA that matches what I saw on the news this morning.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/10/17/nafta-update-likely-loggerheads-to-be-announced-at-300pm/

So the update is that they have decided to keep talking. On the news this morning they had this breaking news story with a clip of our Trade Minister looking like, where do we go from here, and the report that we and Mexico were going to tell the US no deal, then they went to commercial and there was nothing more on the story, anywhere. Now the update is they will add an extra session in 2018 and keep talking, but we have told the US, no way to their demands.


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## AlexanderM

Altair said:
			
		

> The main manufacturing line will still be in Quebec even with the planes for the US carriers manufactured in Alabama, or is that incorrect?
> 
> Also, how does Canada lose manufacturing and canadian ingenuity to a US corporate giant? Airbus is French.


Yes, I believe it's only the aircraft sold within the US that will be manufactured in the US.


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## YZT580

And the winner is: AIRBUS.  They get what is a totally new aircraft that fits in well with their current product line, poke a stick in Boeing's eye and will end up owning the C series in about 8 years.  They were looking at losing a lot of European customers who didn't really want an aircraft the size of the A320 but were stuck with it simply because there wasn't anything smaller available without going below 100 passengers.  Now they can order Airbus in all sizes.


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## Altair

YZT580 said:
			
		

> And the winner is: AIRBUS.  They get what is a totally new aircraft that fits in well with their current product line, poke a stick in Boeing's eye and will end up owning the C series in about 8 years.  They were looking at losing a lot of European customers who didn't really want an aircraft the size of the A320 but were stuck with it simply because there wasn't anything smaller available without going below 100 passengers.  Now they can order Airbus in all sizes.


Bombardier will still make more partnered with Airbus than they would have going it alone, especially in the face of US tariffs.

Considering the alternative, they have to be considered winners here as well.


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## AlexanderM

AlexanderM said:
			
		

> All I can find on NAFTA that matches what I saw on the news this morning.
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/10/17/nafta-update-likely-loggerheads-to-be-announced-at-300pm/
> 
> So the update is that they have decided to keep talking. On the news this morning they had this breaking news story with a clip of our Trade Minister looking like, where do we go from here, and the report that we and Mexico were going to tell the US no deal, then they went to commercial and there was nothing more on the story, anywhere. Now the update is they will add an extra session in 2018 and keep talking, but we have told the US, no way to their demands.


Not looking good.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nafta-freeland-lighthizer-round4-1.4358242


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## MarkOttawa

Airbus can ditch the poor-selling A319neo (Boeing 737 MAX-7 also in trouble) for CSeries 300:



> Airbus-Bombardier CSeries shocker: First thoughts
> 
> Genuine surprise: I was at a reception last night in Atlanta filled with aviation journalists from 18 countries here to see Delta Air Lines publicly debut the Airbus A350 today, and shock wouldn’t be too strong a word to describe the reaction as the news broke. There has been speculation about Bombardier seeking partners for the CSeries program for years, but no one saw this deal coming at this time. In an era when almost nothing stays secret, Airbus and Bombardier kept these talks off Twitter and behind closed doors.
> 
> Bombardier concedes it needs CSeries sales help: With Airbus literally paying nothing to gain a majority stake in the CSeries, Bombardier is admitting that competing against Airbus and Boeing in the global mainline airliner sales arena was too heavy a lift. After breakthrough CSeries orders in the first half of last year from Delta and Air Canada, it was expected that CSeries sales would begin to quickly rack up. But sales stalled. Even with CS100s and CS300s performing well in service with Swiss International Air Lines and Latvia’s airBaltic, airlines remained wary of putting their full faith in Bombardier for a mainline aircraft. But now Airbus’s formidable global sales clout will be brought to bear on behalf of the CSeries.
> 
> Airbus concedes it failed to adequately address the 100-150-seat market: Bombardier has been saying all along that Airbus and Boeing simply left a blind spot in the commercial aircraft market, focusing their attention on larger narrowbodies and ignoring the between-regional-jet-and-small-airliner segment. _Airbus is now admitting this and implicitly conceding the A319neo is inadequate for this market (the A319neo is not, by any means, where the manufacturer’s time and energy in the neo program has been placed)_ [emphasis added].
> 
> Boeing has to be experiencing major whiplash: Boeing thought it had won a quick victory over Bombardier with recent rulings by the US Commerce Department that would have effectively kept the CSeries out of the US market. Now Airbus/Bombardier will build the CSeries in Mobile, Alabama. How can you place 300% in duties on an aircraft built in Alabama, consisting of 50% US-made components, being delivered to Atlanta or other US cities? You probably can’t, either legally or politically, and so Boeing is left shaking its fist at “a questionable deal between two heavily state-subsidized competitors to skirt the recent findings of the US government.”
> 
> “Nice little airplane”: I keep thinking of Airbus COO-customers John Leahy touring the CSeries at the 2015 Paris Air Show and then, with a gleam in his eye, dismissively telling reporters that Bombardier had a “nice little airplane.”
> http://atwonline.com/blog/airbus-bombardier-cseries-shocker-first-thoughts



Boeing 737 MAX-7, from May:



> CSeries prices threaten 737 Max 7 'viability': Boeing
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cseries-prices-threaten-737-max-7-viability-boein-437624/



But what happens to Q400 (Downsview ON) and CRJs (Mirabel)--both having fairly hard time these days, vs ATR and Embraer respectively:



> Bombardier looks to revitalize older aircraft
> https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bombardier-looks-to-revitalize-older-aircraft/article36242767/
> 
> No new regional jet for Bombardier, which wants to 'fine tune' the CRJ
> http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/no-new-regional-jet-for-bombardier-which-wants-to-fine-tune-the-crj



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa

"Interim" Super Hornet seems to be dying a slow death:



> Feds have until end of year to decide on Boeing Super Hornet fighter jets
> 
> The Trudeau government has until the end of the year to decide on an offer for Super Hornet fighter jets, which remain on the table despite recent escalations in the bitter feud with aerospace giant Boeing.
> 
> The U.S. government delivered a formal offer to sell the Boeing-made planes to Canada last month, after the Liberals said they were urgently needed to address a shortage of CF-18s.
> 
> But sources tell The Canadian Press that the offer for 18 Super Hornets and associated weapons and equipment, at an estimated cost of more than $6 billion, is only good until the end of the year.
> 
> The government can ask for an extension, but there is no guarantee it will be granted...
> 
> Canada has in fact been given longer to decide on the Super Hornets than is normal for countries that want to buy military equipment from the U.S. Formal offers are usually only good for 60 days before they expire...
> https://globalnews.ca/news/3812668/trudeau-government-boeing-super-hornet-fighter-jets/



Mark
Ottawa


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## Pencil Tech

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> "Interim" Super Hornet seems to be dying a slow death:
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



$6 billion for 18 Rhinos? I don't think so.


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## Altair

So I notice Boeing has been putting ads out about how much they do for Canada and how much business they have here. 

Must be worried about the bad press.


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## Loachman

They're not working on me.

I'm not buying _any_ of their products for a long, long time.


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## MilEME09

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> $6 billion for 18 Rhinos? I don't think so.



Just watch this will die out, but no competition will be launched


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## dimsum

Well, the Bombardier C-Series proposed replacement for the Aurora is one step closer to being a reality


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## SeaKingTacco

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Well, the Bombardier C-Series proposed replacement for the Aurora is one step closer to being a reality



Well, there is certainly no way in hell we are P8s now.

Might as well start seeing where the bomb bay will fit in a 300 series...


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## observor 69

And this from todays G&M :
"Boeing loses in another way too. Having worked hard to destroy the C Series, the Canadian government is hardly likely to reward Boeing with fat defence contracts, such as its plan to replace Canada's clapped-out CF-18 fighter bombers with the new generation of F/A-18s, which are made by Boeing. The F/A-18s had been at the top of Canada's procurement list. Canada is now likely to consider buying non-Boeing planes, such as the Eurofighter Typhoon – which is made by a European consortium that includes Airbus – or France's Dassault Rafale. More jobs for Airbus in Alabama could translate into fewer jobs at Boeing's fighter-jet plants."

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/when-trumps-celebrates-a-win-in-the-bombardier-dispute-it-will-be-at-boeings-expense/article36678275/


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## Cdn Blackshirt

Boeing deserves to be placed in the penalty box for a long time over this.  So glad it has blown up in their faces.


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## observor 69

Lots of good info in this comparison of Eurofighter Typhoon vs Dassault Rafale, Royal Air Force vs French Air Force. 
Also more detail in the comments that follow.

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/2014/06/fighter-jet-fight-club-typhoon-vs-rafale.html


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## MarkOttawa

Lots on Rafale from _Defense Industry Daily_ should France/Dassault make offer for Bombardier assembly etc. (as perhaps with India):
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/frances-rafale-05991/

Mark
Ottawa


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## AlexanderM

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Lots of good info in this comparison of Eurofighter Typhoon vs Dassault Rafale, Royal Air Force vs French Air Force.
> Also more detail in the comments that follow.
> 
> http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/2014/06/fighter-jet-fight-club-typhoon-vs-rafale.html


Just wanted to mention that the Typhoon does not yet have AESA radar, it's part of a soon to come upgrade. Also, things have become rather quiet while the US ponders what to do about the Airbus/Bombardier deal and what to do about NAFTA, as in, should they even continue talking. And yes I know more talks are already scheduled but they also know they don't have a deal.

Also, if you look at the first post below the article there is a claim that the Rafale, using SPECTRA, can lock up targets behind it, but I have no idea if this is accurate.

Here is the quote.

While an HMD certainly ease the cueing of short range A2A missile in the WVR arena, it would bring marginal comfort for a rafale armed with BVR capable MICA. Demonstrated over the shoulder MICA firing ( 15 km + range ) and rear sector acquisition via SPECTRA , shows Rafale ability to engage 360 deg. at medium BVR range before the merge . This is of significant tactical relevance ,even if all too often ignored in classic BVR or WVR capabilities assessment. 

Found something more on firing on targets behind the Rafale. Here is the source.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/ho/noticia/18206/What-does-Egypt-get-for-choosing-the-Rafale---Dassault%E2%80%99s-fighter-jet-/

Here is the quote.

During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.

Concerning Sensor fusion.

The heart of this data fusion is the MDPU - Processing Unit Data Modules that comprises 19 LRUs (flight-line replaceable units), each providing a processing capacity up to 50 times greater than the previous generation of fighters. Translation: The pilot has a reduced workload, which enables him to act like a real tactical decision maker, rather than a mere sensor operator.


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## SupersonicMax

HMD is a lot more than a cueing systems in A/A. What is displayed in it helps maintain SA on the fight.  You can see your wingman (with distance and altitude delta), see there the targets are (no need to guess from the radar display as to where to look), launch acceptable regions and get aircraft state information.  I use it more in that context than for cueing.


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## AlexanderM

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> HMD is a lot more than a cueing systems in A/A. What is displayed in it helps maintain SA on the fight.  You can see your wingman (with distance and altitude delta), see there the targets are (no need to guess from the radar display as to where to look), launch acceptable regions and get aircraft state information.  I use it more in that context than for cueing.


Qatar is adding HMD's for their Rafale jets, so it can be done.

http://defence-blog.com/news/qatar-orders-helmet-mounted-display-systems-for-its-new-rafale-fighter-jets.html

And

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/2014/09/my-mixed-feelings-on-rafale.html

The Rafale has already been tested with the "TopOwl-F" HMD, but for one reason or another, neither the French air force nor the French navy have made plans to outfit Rafales with an HMD.  The capability is there, but the implementation is not. 

Again, the Rafale's promised "open source" architecture means that the addition of an HMD likely would not be an issue.  It is very possible that the CF-18's current JHMCS could be adapted, with more advanced models to follow.


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## MarkOttawa

Cf. Eurofighter for RCAF--Liberals' innovation "superclusters" anyone? ( https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-selects-nine-industry-groups-shortlist-for-superclusters-program/article36528441/ )



> Eurofighter companies add on to Belgian contract bid
> _Eurofighter consortium companies will support development of innovation centers in Belgium if the Typhoon is chosen to replace F-16s of the Belgian Air Force._
> 
> Eurofighter consortium companies will try to develop national innovation centers in Belgium if Eurofighter is chosen to replace Belgium's F-16 aircraft.
> 
> The commitment by BAE Systems, Airbus Defense and Space, Leonardo and missile systems company MBDA came in the form of endorsements signed in Brussels during British Minister for Defense Procurement Harriett Baldwin's visit to the office of Eurofighter companies. {link: A Eurofighter release: "https://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-events/2017/10/eurofighter-companies-commit-to-supporting-development-of-national-innovation-centres-for-belgium" target="_blank"} said the endorsements are for two innovation centers, one in Flanders and one in Wallonia.
> 
> "With the support of our partner companies across Europe, we are delighted to sign these endorsements which form a key component of our industrial offer to Belgium," said Anthony Gregory, Campaign Director for Belgium at BAE Systems. "These centers in Flanders and Wallonia could not only build on Belgium's existing capabilities, but also play an essential role in positioning Belgium's industry for work on future combat aircraft programs in Europe with key European partners."
> 
> The two centers would focus on advanced manufacturing and additive layer manufacturing. Eurofighter partner companies would invest in the development of research agendas by the centers.
> 
> BAE Systems, as part of the Eurofighter contract bid, is also also proposing to establish the infrastructure, technology and training to accommodate and run a Belgian National Network Cyber Center in partnership with the UK and Belgian Governments.
> 
> Belgium plans to replace more than 50 F-16s and issued a Request for Government Proposals last March. Britain has proposed the Eurofighter Typhoon. Other planes offered include the Boeing Super Hornet (US), Dassault's Rafale (France), Lockheed Martin's F-35 (United States) and the Gripen by Sweden's Saab.
> https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2017/10/27/Eurofighter-companies-add-on-to-Belgian-contract-bid/7701509125925/



Mark
Ottawa


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## SeaKingTacco

If we end up going European with our next fighter, I seem to think the Typhoon has better future potential for growth than the Rafale.

Lot more users, too.


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## PuckChaser

Eurfoghter will never get the cost down enough to win a competition. Kuwait deal was $140M USD per aircraft, and they were likely blocked from some technology and weapons only available to FVEY/NATO countries.


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## observor 69

Or maybe around US $114M :

"BAE Systems has slashed the cost of producing a Typhoon jet by 20pc over the past five years and slowed the production rate in an attempt to boost export orders for the supersonic fighter. 


The company, which builds the aircraft at its plant in Warton, Lancs, is seeking to win export customers as it closes in on providing the 160 jets ordered by the Ministry of Defence. 


So far the RAF has taken delivery of 129 of the twin-engine planes which, according to government data, cost £87m each."

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/11749347/BAE-slashes-cost-of-making-Typhoon-jet-fighters-as-it-seeks-new-export-orders.html


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## SeaKingTacco

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Eurfoghter will never get the cost down enough to win a competition. Kuwait deal was $140M USD per aircraft, and they were likely blocked from some technology and weapons only available to FVEY/NATO countries.



I suspect cost is no longer the prime driver.

Not buying an American plane, especially the F-35 and probably any Boeing made product, have probably brought us to the point where whomever bribes provides the best industrial offset package will win, regardless of military utility...

Yes, I am that cynical...


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## MarkOttawa

SeaKingTaco:



> Yes, I am that cynical...



Aye, and jobs! jobs! jobs! hoping for Liberal votes! votes! votes! in Quebec:



> After knocking on 10,000 doors in Lac-Saint-Jean, Liberals eyeing more Quebec seats
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/after-knocking-on-10000-doors-in-lac-saint-jean-liberals-eyeing-more-quebec-seats/article36758472/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&



In sadness (and Conservatives hardly much better),

Mark
Ottawa


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## OldSolduer

I'm not an expert on aircraft but on Crackbook it seems anyone whoever held the rank of Pte (T) is an SME on a/c, procurement and why we need to reinvest in an a/c from the 50s.

I can only shake my head.


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## kev994

Think of the votes that could be bought if we could just get Viking to build some Sabres


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## SeaKingTacco

kev994 said:
			
		

> Think of the votes that could be bought if we could just get Viking to build some Sabres



Entirely wrong two provinces to try and buy votes....


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## AlexanderM

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> HMD is a lot more than a cueing systems in A/A. What is displayed in it helps maintain SA on the fight.  You can see your wingman (with distance and altitude delta), see there the targets are (no need to guess from the radar display as to where to look), launch acceptable regions and get aircraft state information.  I use it more in that context than for cueing.


Aside from the fact that the HMD can be added it has also recently come to my attention that the Rafale has it's own kind of stealth technology called "Active Cancellation" something of which I'd never heard of before. It is the reason the aircraft can go into hazardous environments in which the F-35 was meant to go. For instance, here is a source.

https://hushkit.net/2015/12/18/typhoon-versus-rafale-the-final-word/

Here is the quote:

The French (and Swedes) have long excelled in electronic warfare and jamming and the Typhoon has a way to go yet if it is to catch up with the other two Eurocanards in this area. It is also worth remembering, however, that part of the Rafale’s appearance of being able to go places Typhoon cannot due to SPECTRA is explained by the higher (and admirable) tolerance for risk in the Armee de l’Air compared to the RAF or any other European air forces. Even if Typhoon had SPECTRA, the RAF would not have sent it into Libya before the US air defence suppression had been carried out.
_____________________________________

Except I think he's missing the fact that Rafale can get in and get out because the Active Cancellation makes it very difficult to lock up the aircraft. For instance.

Here is a source.

http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/military-aviation/dassault-rafale

And here is the quote:

Rafale is officially said to have a frontal RCS of about 0.1m2 and comes under the category of Low observable (LO) aircraft. But with the aid of SPECTRA which can perform “active cancellation”—receiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircraft’s echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees almost nothing, the RCS is reduced to about 0.06m2.

But it doesn’t stop there. Dassault has admitted that a new upgrade package is almost ready for operations which would further decrease the RCS of Rafale to that of a Sparrow! Called DEDIRA (Demonstrateur de Discrétion Rafale / Descreet Rafale Demonstrator) it aims to improve the SPECTRA suite on the F3R version of Rafale. This program is linked with another one called INCAS (Intégration de Nouvelles Capacités à Spectra) which deals with the integration of GaN modules in RBE2 and SPECTRA suite along with GaN modules incorporated ‘smart-skins’ for all-passive day/night and all weather long-range detection and targeting capability involving all passive sensors available to sensor fusion.
​
The DEDIRA program will further improve the active stealth aspect of SPECTRA to bring down the frontal RCS of Rafale close to 0.0006m2. For reference, the unofficial frontal RCS of Raptor is 0.0001m2 without active cancellation, which is a Very Low observable (VLO) aircraft. DEDIRA is already integrated on a test Rafale numbered B301.

The above article has disappeared, here is another source, look under active cancellation.

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/secrets-of-stealth
_____________________________________________

I'm not sure if this capability has entered the conversation before now.


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## AlexanderM

Lots of information here on Rafale, see active cancellation under the SPECTRA section.

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/next-gen-weapons/archives/03-2017

I found a reference to a Snecma M90 engine that would produce 65 kN to 104 kN, which is more powerful than the Typhoon. I have also seen a reference to the fact that the French could have done a 2 way data link for the Meteor missile, but chose not to, which means we could. Then if we could add the HMD and give the aircraft the ability to use additional missiles, it would be a lights out fighter. 

The engine upgrade has been in the works for a while, as it was initially a requirement for the sale to India, they then dropped the requirement, but it has been there in the background for sometime now, as in years. The upgrade to SPECTRA, including a big upgrade for the active cancellation technology, as detailed above, is already happening in the F3R upgrade which is pretty much ready to go now. Then drop a couple of billion on the table to get the remaining upgrades done and there's our fighter, if we see a quote for the F-35 that resembles the Super Hornat quote in which the price is way out of line, or even do a mix. The ability of the aircraft (SPECTRA) to fire on targets anywhere in the bubble, including directly behind the aircraft without breaking stride, along with the active cancellation technology is a game changer, at least this is what I'm thinking, this active cancellation technology came out of nowhere.


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## AlexanderM

Just wanted to point out how the Rafale upgrades are pretty much all ready to go. I'm not certain what currency these estimates are in but it may be Indian currency, with the reference to $80B being spent on engine technology, which would not make sense with $US or Euros. In the first source we see a reference to the Snecma M90 engine, which comes with a link to the second source, and also there is a reference to REB3 radar, as I believe that increasing the range of the new AESA radar is already in the works and it's something our people should inquire about, as I have a hunch that an increased range could be available in an initial order.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalPowers/comments/69o3ra/rd_rafale_f4/

Then the link to the M90 engine leads here. Notice that the engine is ready to be tested in an airframe, so it's built. Also, the power to weight ratio given in the first source has to be with the 2 conformal tanks and the 3 drop tanks, as the Rafale with the new engine, in a typical configuration would have a power to weight ratio above 1:1, so it has to be the configuration they are mentioning in the article.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalPowers/comments/68nrsf/rd_k10_engine_reaches_advanced_prototype_stage/

So the F3R upgrade and the M90 Engine would both likely be available for a Canadian order, then neither the two way data link for the Meteor missile nor the HMD would be a problem, so the last issue would be giving the Rafale the capability to use the US missiles, so long as that could be done in a timely manner we'd be good, just in case we need a plan B. This would be a highly advanced fighter with an entirely different type of stealth capability.


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## NavyShooter

If Bombardier got production rights to build the Textron Scorpion, we'd probably end up stuck with a couple hundred of them whether we needed them or not.

And no F-35....


----------



## Kirkhill

How embarassing - In Belfast of all places.








> Flybe airliner crash lands in Belfast with no nose gear



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/10/flybe-airliner-crash-lands-belfast-no-nose-gear/

By the way.  That is Flybe, not Flowbee

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiEwIWR7bTXAhVK5WMKHam2Dc8Q3ywIKTAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxTi2Uyz6Snc&usg=AOvVaw2F8t67eYk9SJyreVdgI2Hn


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## AlexanderM

NAFTA news. The article points out that it may not be that easy for Trump to tear up the agreement, but it also means the uncertainty drags on and on, making it difficult to do business with the US. 

http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/21/news/economy/trump-nafta-talks/index.html


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> HMD is a lot more than a cueing systems in A/A. What is displayed in it helps maintain SA on the fight.  You can see your wingman (with distance and altitude delta), see there the targets are (no need to guess from the radar display as to where to look), launch acceptable regions and get aircraft state information.  I use it more in that context than for cueing.



Certainly you probably know more than anyone else here. If I gave you $150 million to buy your own, which would you have (and no the Raptor is not an option )?


----------



## SupersonicMax

F-15E


----------



## GR66

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> F-15E



F-15 2040C?  Assuming the Libs want to focus on the NORAD role vs. overseas deployments.


----------



## SupersonicMax

The Strike Eagle can carry as many missiles, can stay on station for longer and has as good a radar as the F-15C.  It only has a seat extra but that could either be made into a single seat or train WSOs.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The Strike Eagle can carry as many missiles, can stay on station for longer and has as good a radar as the F-15C.  It only has a seat extra but that could either be made into a single seat or train WSOs.



You mean to give free rides to visiting Col and Generals?


----------



## Journeyman

Pre-flight said:
			
		

> You mean to give free rides to visiting Col and Generals?


Politicians on selfie excursions


----------



## Colin Parkinson

So if you make a politician barf in the back, do you get free drinks in the Mess afterwards?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Colin P said:
			
		

> So if you make a politician barf in the back, do you get free drinks in the Mess afterwards?



Not really. I can assure you, it won't be the politician doing "clean up on aisle four"...


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> So if you make a politician barf in the back, do you get free drinks in the Mess afterwards?



My experience was that the person _*doing*_ the barfing was the one who bought the drinks!!


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## AlexanderM

Boeing loses, Canada wins!! 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/26/boeing-loses-trade-case-over-bombardier-passenger-jets.html

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/26/news/companies/bombardier-boeing-itc-vote-harm-ruling/index.html


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## YZT580

AlexanderM said:
			
		

> *Boeing loses big time* ][/b] , Canada wins!!
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/26/boeing-loses-trade-case-over-bombardier-passenger-jets.html
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/26/news/companies/bombardier-boeing-itc-vote-harm-ruling/index.html



Airbus is a huge winner too.  They get half of all production profits and with the restrictions lifted and with Airbus backing it  AND with the proven benefits of the aircraft (just ask Baltic or Swiss) the sales should start multiplying.  They are going to need that second production line.


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## dapaterson

If you bought BBD two years ago, you're now up over 300%...

Though if you bought a decade ago you're down about 50%.


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