# Military chief warns China and Russia are 'at war with the West' and Canada is not ready



## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

Military chief warns China and Russia are 'at war with the West' and Canada is not ready
					

Russia and China don’t differentiate between peace and war and are actively seeking to challenge the West, says Gen. Wayne Eyre




					nationalpost.com
				




A timely statement from the CDS but I think one thing it's missing is the so what?

IMO, the so what for me is that this Country needs WINNERS in the driver seat.  We need to start actively competing economically, politically, culturally, socially and militarily.

We have natural resources, we have tremendous financial and intellectual capital at our disposal.  Lets start WINNING!  Lets start COMPETING!

Ukraine is a sideshow for an even bigger conflict that is building.


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## Halifax Tar (7 Oct 2022)

Your link is just a link to the NP icon


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Your link is just a link to the NP icon


Fixed it!


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## Kat Stevens (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Military chief warns China and Russia are 'at war with the West' and Canada is not ready
> 
> 
> Russia and China don’t differentiate between peace and war and are actively seeking to challenge the West, says Gen. Wayne Eyre
> ...


Canada never has been "ready for war". Not once. Not ever.


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## SeaKingTacco (7 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Canada never has been "ready for war". Not once. Not ever.


I would argue we were from 1950 to about 1965(ish)…


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## Kat Stevens (7 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I would argue we were from 1950 to about 1965(ish)…


I'd counter argue we were ready to be stuffed into the Fulda Gap as a speedbump.


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Canada never has been "ready for war". Not once. Not ever.


Mediocrity seems to be the name of the game at this point.  I want us to compete and get with the program.

I also want my generation to stop being such utter babies, tall order I know.

There shouldn't even be a question of where Europe et al is getting their gas, energy and wheat from, we should be absolutely smashing those tinpot dictatorships we are competing with.

But we aren't, we are too comfortable.  It's not our problem..... until it is.  Then it's too late.


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## FSTO (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Mediocrity seems to be the name of the game at this point.  I want us to compete and get with the program.
> 
> I also want my generation to stop being such utter babies, tall order I know.
> 
> ...


Don’t say that to Trudy, according to him we are just fine.


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## Navy_Pete (7 Oct 2022)

Is this the same military leadership that deployed ships in March to the Med (ie Black Sea adjacent) that didn't meet basic safety standards, let alone combatant recoverability standards?

I think bad things filter out as it goes up the chain, so not really surprised that JT would think things are fine, as that's probably what he's being briefed, by people who are also getting a filtered brief, which gets progressively better the more levels it goes through.

It's like the Admirals who think the 30 year old ships are awesomely capable that get surprised when they walk around there are issues with basic hotel systems (ie no heat), bits of deck you don't want to step on and other issues on our Tempos with big stereos and ground effect lighting. A modern combat suite on a platform that wouldn't leave the harbour under commercial rules is overall not an effective combatant once things actually hit the fan. Bit like a boxer with a glass jaw; might be awesome as long as they don't get hit.


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## Halifax Tar (7 Oct 2022)

Easy on Ford Tempo homes.


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## QV (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Military chief warns China and Russia are 'at war with the West' and Canada is not ready
> 
> 
> Russia and China don’t differentiate between peace and war and are actively seeking to challenge the West, says Gen. Wayne Eyre
> ...


I'm with you!... but you might trigger some people with that Trumopian terminology... "winning"


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## QV (7 Oct 2022)

We need enthusiastic leadership in all areas. There has just been far too much negativity.


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## Quirky (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> We have natural resources, we have tremendous financial and intellectual capital at our disposal. Lets start WINNING! Lets start COMPETING!



Will never happen with this woke government hell bent on fighting climate change.


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## ArmyRick (7 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> Will never happen with this woke government hell bent on fighting climate change.


Fully agreed. And combating hate everywhere! According to Trudeau, Canada is so full of hate that he and his party have to stomp it out.
I guess his father failed miserable building a better Canada?

In all seriousness, Canada keeps flirting with the emergency exit handle when it comes to defence. One day we will actually open it, lets hope we are not in the air (translation lets hope WHEN someone directly attacks our sovereignty we are somewhat ready). Yeah I know, my crazy mind has weird analogies.


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

Exhibit A of what not to do!

Apparently we are going to setup a committee to "study the issues" allegedly.

The Government is going to develop infrastructure, fix labor shortages and consult with identify choke points 🤣  HOW?  Who knows!  Probably with pixie dust!

Listening to that Minister and those Technocrats..... I'm not seeing or hearing lot of what sounds like winning!


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## Navy_Pete (7 Oct 2022)

This was brought up repeatedly on the NSS side of things; having the ability to build our own ships but has to go externally for basics like steel, enough qualified trades etc means it's heavily reliant on global supply chain, and things like trade actions from other countries in response to general political issues (like if China decided to prevent export of icebreaking steel due to our position on Taiwan).

Some fuckwit at Finance will drone on endlessly about lost opportunity cost about not gving money to car plants and building ships outside of Canada, but doesn't get that 'Key Industrial Capabilities' (aka KICs) on the manufacturing side to 'add product value' are totally useless without 'low value' feeder parts, and skilled people to operate them. Trying to get some kind of federal strategy to encourage investment in apprenticeship programs (maybe via business tax breaks?) just fell on deaf ears who couldn't work it into their agenda to build mini empires.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Apparently we are going to setup a committee to "study the issues" allegedly.


Committee's and studies are the new money laundering systems.......


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## Brad Sallows (7 Oct 2022)

To compete and win, you have to believe you are competitive and have a chance of winning.

What is there left today that people are allowed to feel good about?  That isn't subject to a thousand little ankle-biters whinging about the evils of western civilization, Canada, free markets, free thought and expression, technological progress, etc?


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> This was brought up repeatedly on the NSS side of things; having the ability to build our own ships but has to go externally for basics like steel, enough qualified trades etc means it's heavily reliant on global supply chain, and things like trade actions from other countries in response to general political issues (like if China decided to prevent export of icebreaking steel due to our position on Taiwan).
> 
> Some fuckwit at Finance will drone on endlessly about lost opportunity cost about not gving money to car plants and building ships outside of Canada, but doesn't get that 'Key Industrial Capabilities' (aka KICs) on the manufacturing side to 'add product value' are totally useless without 'low value' feeder parts, and skilled people to operate them. Trying to get some kind of federal strategy to encourage investment in apprenticeship programs (maybe via business tax breaks?) just fell on deaf ears who couldn't work it into their agenda to build mini empires.


Yep and we have consistently undermined and undercut our primary and secondary industries in favour of tertiary and quaternary sector.

What actually amazes me is how much we've actually let our manufacturing sector decline relative to our other G8 Nations, all of whom remain in the Top 10 Manufacturing Countries by Output.  

It's surprising because I was always told that secondary economic activity will decline naturally as a Country becomes more advanced but that only appears to actually be the case for Canada.  It also appears to be a deliberate choice.


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## Navy_Pete (7 Oct 2022)

Yeah, I grew up in Hamilton, and it's amazing how much the manufacturing industries were deliberately undercut over the years, with support at all levels of government dropping in favour of 'service' industry jobs in things like financial services and other 'clean' industries. Meanwhile that requires a massive investment in infrastructure to support all the commuting to the GTA, while very little direct returns to the tax base from the service companies (compared to a factory, which will have fairly high property taxes and things like taxes on large power usage, on top of payroll taxes for all the employees).

Makes no sense to me, especially in a country so rich in natural resources. The UK has done the same, so was really weird to me they didn't better protect the City financial industry in the Brexit agreement (but maybe they have more opportunity for growth in money laundering and tax evasion, vice more above board services).

Meanwhile the same cities are allowing building of McMansions on some of the most fertile farming areas in Canada, as well as in flood plains and other high risk areas. Weird how covering over all the earth with concrete and ashphalt, then putting houses in low areas that used to be dried out will contribute to high rates of localized flooding.


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yeah, I grew up in Hamilton, and it's amazing how much the manufacturing industries were deliberately undercut over the years, with support at all levels of government dropping in favour of 'service' industry jobs in things like financial services and other 'clean' industries. Meanwhile that requires a massive investment in infrastructure to support all the commuting to the GTA, while very little direct returns to the tax base from the service companies (compared to a factory, which will have fairly high property taxes and things like taxes on large power usage, on top of payroll taxes for all the employees).
> 
> Makes no sense to me, especially in a country so rich in natural resources. The UK has done the same, so was really weird to me they didn't better protect the City financial industry in the Brexit agreement (but maybe they have more opportunity for growth in money laundering and tax evasion, vice more above board services).
> 
> Meanwhile the same cities are allowing building of McMansions on some of the most fertile farming areas in Canada, as well as in flood plains and other high risk areas. Weird how covering over all the earth with concrete and ashphalt, then putting houses in low areas that used to be dried out will contribute to high rates of localized flooding.


Look at Japan or Germany.  They are manufacturing superpowers but they've just made their factories super efficient, leveraging the latest technology.









						Wolfsburg Volkswagen Plant - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




We sold off all our World Class companies for pennies on the dollar.


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## Quirky (7 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Meanwhile the same cities are allowing building of McMansions on some of the most fertile farming areas in Canada, as well as in flood plains and other high risk areas. Weird how covering over all the earth with concrete and ashphalt, then putting houses in low areas that used to be dried out will contribute to high rates of localized flooding.



Then the flooding and hurricanes will be described as "I've never seen a storm this strong before" and the climate change hysteria will go on, Carbon taxes will be raised. Meanwhile China is laughing and building more coal plants while we bankrupt and put ourselves into poverty. This country needs a serious overhaul in leadership to combat the future world. Canada is going to die under Trudeau and his policies, even members of his Liberal party are starting to realize this. Something is wrong in our leadership structure when one man can destroy the lives of millions, even in a democratic state.


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## KevinB (7 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> Then the flooding and hurricanes will be described as "I've never seen a storm this strong before" and the climate change hysteria will go on, Carbon taxes will be raised. Meanwhile China is laughing and building more coal plants while we bankrupt and put ourselves into poverty. This country needs a serious overhaul in leadership to combat the future world. Canada is going to die under Trudeau and his policies, even members of his Liberal party are starting to realize this. Something is wrong in our leadership structure when one man can destroy the lives of millions, even in a democratic state.


Boiling Frogs.
   It appears most of Canada hasn’t realized the water is getting really hot and are basking like a hot tub…


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## Navy_Pete (7 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> Then the flooding and hurricanes will be described as "I've never seen a storm this strong before" and the climate change hysteria will go on, Carbon taxes will be raised. Meanwhile China is laughing and building more coal plants while we bankrupt and put ourselves into poverty. This country needs a serious overhaul in leadership to combat the future world. Canada is going to die under Trudeau and his policies, even members of his Liberal party are starting to realize this. Something is wrong in our leadership structure when one man can destroy the lives of millions, even in a democratic state.


What does this have to do with Trudeau? That's all provincial/local zoning laws. In the particular case of the Golden Horseshoe, that's been happening under both the previous Liberal, NDP and PC governments, as well as the current PC government.

The hurricanes, amount of rainfall and general weather patterns are being massively effected by changing sea temperatures and currents, which are clearly changing as sea ice melts. The melting glaciers on land also massively change big things like weather patterns. Things are getting demonstrably worse, and it is similarly criminally short sighted to keep doing what we're doing, but not looking past the upcoming election is a common fault across all parties and levels of government.

If you are expecting that leadership to come from politicians, best of luck. Unless you have a sustained pressure from the populace, you are SOL for any real changes at a strategic level, in any direction.

If folks want smaller government and be free to live their lives, hopefully they are planning on responding on their own next time there is a forest fire, flood etc and insurance isn't covering damages.


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## Quirky (7 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> The hurricanes, amount of rainfall and general weather patterns are being massively effected by changing sea temperatures and currents, which are clearly changing as sea ice melts. The melting glaciers on land also massively change big things like weather patterns. Things are getting demonstrably worse, and it is similarly criminally short sighted to keep doing what we're doing, but not looking past the upcoming election is a common fault across all parties and levels of government.



Climate change is happening, but to say humans have any direct affect vs the natural cycle of the earth is hilarious. Taxing to flight climate change is hilariously idiotic in itself and can only be thought up by the brain dead woke. The only thing this does is make people poorer where they can't afford basic necessities like food. Trudeau's policies are essentially on the path of killing people through starvation.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

Meanwhile…

Ironic photo of a Canuck training Ukrainians on a key weapon we don’t have ourselves 









						Canadian Armed Forces on Instagram: "A CAF member instructs Ukrainian Security Forces members on the Next Generation Light Anti-Tank Weapon (NLAW) as part of #OpUNIFIER in the United Kingdom on October 1.  #StrongProudReady #PhotoOfTheDay #CAF  📸 Cor
					

Canadian Armed Forces shared a post on Instagram: "A CAF member instructs Ukrainian Security Forces members on the Next Generation Light Anti-Tank Weapon (NLAW) as part of #OpUNIFIER in the United Kingdom on October 1.  #StrongProudReady #PhotoOfTheDay #CAF  📸 Corporal Eric Greico, Canadian...




					www.instagram.com


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## Navy_Pete (7 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> Climate change is happening, but to say humans have any direct affect vs the natural cycle of the earth is hilarious. Taxing to flight climate change is hilariously idiotic in itself and can only be thought up by the brain dead woke. The only thing this does is make people poorer where they can't afford basic necessities like food. Trudeau's policies are essentially on the path of killing people through starvation.


I think pretending that the apex predator on the planet that is completely changing the landscape and whose impact is visible from space isn't having a global impact on weather is frankly stupid.

The entire breadbasket that feeds India and Pakistan is in danger of disappearing because the glacier fed runoff that provides water is gradually disappearing because there isn't enough precipitation/cold weather for it to recover in the winter. On both poles chunks of glacier ice the size of countries is falling into the ocean and disappearing; the rising sea levels, changing sea currents impact the global weather system, food security and all kinds of other critical things.

Burying your head in the sand if very CAF of you I guess. Hopefully you are doing it inland though as beachfront property is slowly going underwater.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> The entire breadbasket that feeds India and Pakistan is in danger of disappearing because the glacier fed runoff that provides water is gradually disappearing because there isn't enough precipitation/cold weather for it to recover in the winter. On both poles chunks of glacier ice the size of countries is falling into the ocean and disappearing; the rising sea levels, changing sea currents impact the global weather system, food security and all kinds of other critical things.


So exactly like they've been doing for millions and millions of years?


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## OldSolduer (7 Oct 2022)

I haven't seen the CDS' statement but I fear it will fall on deaf ears...because of that admiration for China.


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## Mills Bomb (7 Oct 2022)

It basically took this war for the Germans to realize how insane Germany's reliance on Russian energy was. Up until now, they voted for a leader who said it was "great for environment" to do things like get rid of nuclear power and buy all the energy from Russia. Only now, after funding Putin's war machine for years and billions of dollars, with the energy from Russia basically cut off and pipelines blown with gas escaping into the ocean and atmosphere, are they finally waking up to how dumb and predictable the entire thing was. And how much damage to the environment did they cause by basically funding the war? The damage to the environment from the war is clearly going to be substantial, although I doubt we will ever see public acceptance by any Western governments of just how stupid that entire plan was or how badly things unfolded or how they actually accelerated the decline of our planet by actioning these policies.

The worlds population has gone from 2.3 billion in 1945 at the end of WWII up to 7.7 billion currently. That's a lot of people in a short amount of time. I personally think the human race is causing a negative impact on the planet, I believe it, it makes sense to me, but when small populations like Canada and the USA are literally GIVING our money and quality of life to the worlds worst polluters, autocrats, and straight up thugs, to destroy the planet without any legitimate regulation at a much faster pace than we would, it make me wonder how does that make any sense? Is it possible that my views are actually more "alarmist" than those who want a "cleaner, greener, future" while staying on the current track that could possibly lead to armageddon if the situation is really as bad as some environmental scientist believe?

You would think the "green" crowd would be the first ones to see reality of the situation and start protesting that we stop spending places like China and Russia where epic environmental damage is commonplace, reverse track, produce our own energy until we find better solutions, and stop funding the worlds biggest polluters and warmongers to destroy this planet faster than we could do it ourselves.

At the end of the day, we're going to be damaging the environment for a while to come, it sucks but it's reality, until we transition to new permanent green alternatives down the road. The way we're doing this now is where we pay the worlds worst regimes to do the polluting for us in the worst ways imaginable, and then they use the money we paid them for more polluting and building militaries to use against us and other democracies--- this to me seems like the worst option.


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## rmc_wannabe (7 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile…
> 
> Ironic photo of a Canuck training Ukrainians on a key weapon we don’t have ourselves
> 
> ...


"Mom can pick up some NLAWs on the way home?"

"NO! You have the M-72 feature on the broken SAT range at home. You can use that and like it"


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## Mills Bomb (7 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I haven't seen the CDS' statement but I fear it will fall on deaf ears...because of that admiration for China.



Well, after all the fiasco's that happened, can we really blame anyone for not taking the CDS seriously? 

Personally, I think he's spot on, but we did a great job trashing the reputation of the position through a series of scandals and poor picks and quite frankly I think that's going to negatively effect any CDS opinion for a long time to come. 

The tragedy here being, I really think people should be listening to him at the moment.


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## OldSolduer (7 Oct 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Well, after all the fiasco's that happened, can we really blame anyone for not taking the CDS seriously?
> 
> Personally, I think he's spot on, but we did a great job trashing the reputation of the position through a series of scandals and poor picks and quite frankly I think that's going to negatively effect any CDS opinion for a long time to come.
> 
> The tragedy here being, I really think people should be listening to him at the moment.


Fully concur and when shit hits the fan whatever party is GoC will say "how could this happen?"


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## Navy_Pete (7 Oct 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> Well, after all the fiasco's that happened, can we really blame anyone for not taking the CDS seriously?
> 
> Personally, I think he's spot on, but we did a great job trashing the reputation of the position through a series of scandals and poor picks and quite frankly I think that's going to negatively effect any CDS opinion for a long time to come.
> 
> The tragedy here being, I really think people should be listening to him at the moment.


I agree, but waiting to see if his own environmental Commanders actually listen. The RCN is continuing to operate the fleet far beyond the capacity of the actual sailors, maintenance facilities and support lines can sustainably manage, but I doubt they will do anything like mothball ships or even slow down the ops tempo.


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## Underway (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Exhibit A of what not to do!
> 
> Apparently we are going to setup a committee to "study the issues" allegedly.
> 
> ...


So I'm of the opinion that governments need to stay out of supply chain discussions, except to help with infrastructure that allows them to create flows and nodes.

Supply chain is to complicated and to fluid for any one group to completely understand.  Its an ecosystem that defies full understanding. As soon as one gets the data of the current state the state has changed and the data is irrelevent.  If the supply chain is breaking then it will have to be fixed on its own, WITHOUT government involvement or help.  Frankly a lot of the supply chain woes are due to the government (mainly US gov't) fiddling with it.


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## Good2Golf (7 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> Then the flooding and hurricanes will be described as "I've never seen a storm this strong before" and the climate change hysteria will go on, Carbon taxes will be raised. *Meanwhile China is laughing and building more coal plants* while we bankrupt and put ourselves into poverty. This country needs a serious overhaul in leadership to combat the future world. Canada is going to die under Trudeau and his policies, even members of his Liberal party are starting to realize this. Something is wrong in our leadership structure when one man can destroy the lives of millions, even in a democratic state.


…fed by Canadian coal ripped out of open pit mines in the Rocky Mountains, like here in Elk Valley, B.C.



You couldn’t make up this insanely-hypocritical BS if you tried…


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Oct 2022)

Underway said:


> So I'm of the opinion that governments need to stay out of supply chain discussions, except to help with infrastructure that allows them to create flows and nodes.
> 
> Supply chain is to complicated and to fluid for any one group to completely understand.  Its an ecosystem that defies full understanding. As soon as one gets the data of the current state the state has changed and the data is irrelevent.  If the supply chain is breaking then it will have to be fixed on its own, WITHOUT government involvement or help.  Frankly a lot of the supply chain woes are due to the government (mainly US gov't) fiddling with it.


I'm of the opinion we need less Government involvement and interference which is why I posted the video of them talking about all the things they are going to do.

My message to them would be:

"How about you stay out of our way" 😉


Good2Golf said:


> …fed by Canadian coal ripped out of open pit mines in the Rocky Mountains, like here in Elk Valley, B.C.
> 
> View attachment 74089
> 
> You couldn’t make up this insanely-hypocritical BS if you tried…



I've been hauling metallurgical coal all week to the terminal near my place.  Nobody see's it because it's safely behind an embankment 🤣


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## Good2Golf (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I've been hauling metallurgical coal all week to the terminal near my place. Nobody see's it because it's safely behind an embankment 🤣


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## daftandbarmy (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm of the opinion we need less Government involvement and interference which is why I posted the video of them talking about all the things they are going to do.
> 
> My message to them would be:
> 
> ...



Meanwhile, in the Kootenays...


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## btrudy (7 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I agree, but waiting to see if his own environmental Commanders actually listen. The RCN is continuing to operate the fleet far beyond the capacity of the actual sailors, maintenance facilities and support lines can sustainably manage, but I doubt they will do anything like mothball ships or even slow down the ops tempo.



All the CDS needs to do is fire one obstinate three star, and folks'll get with the program soon enough.


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## FJAG (7 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yeah, I grew up in Hamilton, and it's amazing how much the manufacturing industries were deliberately undercut over the years, with support at all levels of government dropping in favour of 'service' industry jobs in things like financial services and other 'clean' industries. Meanwhile that requires a massive investment in infrastructure to support all the commuting to the GTA, while very little direct returns to the tax base from the service companies (compared to a factory, which will have fairly high property taxes and things like taxes on large power usage, on top of payroll taxes for all the employees).
> 
> Makes no sense to me, especially in a country so rich in natural resources. The UK has done the same, so was really weird to me they didn't better protect the City financial industry in the Brexit agreement (but maybe they have more opportunity for growth in money laundering and tax evasion, vice more above board services).
> 
> Meanwhile the same cities are allowing building of McMansions on some of the most fertile farming areas in Canada, as well as in flood plains and other high risk areas. Weird how covering over all the earth with concrete and ashphalt, then putting houses in low areas that used to be dried out will contribute to high rates of localized flooding.


I grew up in Scarborough in the late 50s and 60s and from the Bluffs you could see all the way to the blast furnaces in Hamilton turning out the steel that fed a multitude of manufacturing plants around Toronto which were all powered by cheap hydro power.

The blast furnaces like the cheap hydro are all gone. So are most of those manufacturing plants.

In 1904 Wilfred Laurier said: "The nineteenth century was the century of the United States. I think we can claim that it is Canada that shall fill the twentieth century."

For a while there it was true - and then we took our eye off the ball.

🍻


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## Kat Stevens (7 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Look at Japan or Germany.  They are manufacturing superpowers but they've just made their factories super efficient, leveraging the latest technology.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's worse than that; we just drove them away.


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## QV (8 Oct 2022)

Mills Bomb said:


> It basically took this war for the Germans to realize how insane Germany's reliance on Russian energy was. Up until now, they voted for a leader who said it was "great for environment" to do things like get rid of nuclear power and buy all the energy from Russia. Only now, after funding Putin's war machine for years and billions of dollars, with the energy from Russia basically cut off and pipelines blown with gas escaping into the ocean and atmosphere, are they finally waking up to how dumb and predictable the entire thing was. And how much damage to the environment did they cause by basically funding the war? The damage to the environment from the war is clearly going to be substantial, although I doubt we will ever see public acceptance by any Western governments of just how stupid that entire plan was or how badly things unfolded or how they actually accelerated the decline of our planet by actioning these policies.
> 
> The worlds population has gone from 2.3 billion in 1945 at the end of WWII up to 7.7 billion currently. That's a lot of people in a short amount of time. I personally think the human race is causing a negative impact on the planet, I believe it, it makes sense to me, but when small populations like Canada and the USA are literally GIVING our money and quality of life to the worlds worst polluters, autocrats, and straight up thugs, to destroy the planet without any legitimate regulation at a much faster pace than we would, it make me wonder how does that make any sense? Is it possible that my views are actually more "alarmist" than those who want a "cleaner, greener, future" while staying on the current track that could possibly lead to armageddon if the situation is really as bad as some environmental scientist believe?
> 
> ...


Absolutely right…. But come on, you can say it…. Say it with me Mills Bomb: “Trump was right”.


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## OldSolduer (8 Oct 2022)

FJAG said:


> I grew up in Scarborough in the late 50s and 60s and from the Bluffs you could see all the way to the blast furnaces in Hamilton turning out the steel that fed a multitude of manufacturing plants around Toronto which were all powered by cheap hydro power.
> 
> The blast furnaces like the cheap hydro are all gone. So are most of those manufacturing plants.
> 
> ...


How true, but hard times like WWI and WW2 and Korea make good people, while good times can make weak people.


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## RedFive (8 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …fed by Canadian coal ripped out of open pit mines in the Rocky Mountains, like here in Elk Valley, B.C.
> 
> View attachment 74089
> 
> You couldn’t make up this insanely-hypocritical BS if you tried…


I know somebody who works for the company doing open pit coal mining in Tumbler Ridge, BC. She does permitting and environmental work.

Yes, it looks horrible but the amount of permitting, environmental work and rehabilitation required to continue their operation is astounding. It's not ideal or pretty, but it contributes greatly to the economy of BC.


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## Good2Golf (8 Oct 2022)

And all the CO2 chuffing out of Chinese steel mills doesn’t come back over Canada….unlike the horrid way that horrible Albertans just rip into the earth with no regard for the environment and are rightly persecuted by the Federal government because…no benefit to China.

😉


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## GK .Dundas (8 Oct 2022)

Didn't we try to lay up some vessels about a decade ago, something like half the MCDV fleet.and.about two to three of the frigates?
And for this reason now that I think of it.


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## Mills Bomb (8 Oct 2022)

QV said:


> Absolutely right…. But come on, you can say it…. Say it with me Mills Bomb: “Trump was right”.



HA. Trump's advisors were right about certain things, although, unlike you, I don't think being right about certain things makes him a great president.

You Trumper types seem to love a good excuse to bring up anything he did remotely right, even when it's things others aren't even disagreeing with. Even when Trump isn't being discussed. You're probably not going to convince many people to bring back Trump just because most military types do believe things like domestic energy production should be a priority, or equal NATO military spending, these things are pretty universally accepted as good ideas by the types of people who frequent these types of forums and I don't think I've ever seen anyone go after Trump for that. For the list of things he did right, there's a lot he really messed up also. Trump, like most politicians, isn't some kind of binary debate; one point doesn't equal Trump good or Trump bad. But let's keep it to the Trump thread.


----------



## childs56 (8 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> And all the CO2 chuffing out of Chinese steel mills doesn’t come back over Canada….


Hmm


Good2Golf said:


> unlike the horrid way that horrible Albertans just rip into the earth with no regard for the environment and are rightly persecuted by the Federal government because…no benefit to China.
> 
> 😉


Are you trying to be funny or are you for real?


----------



## Czech_pivo (8 Oct 2022)

FJAG said:


> I grew up in Scarborough in the late 50s and 60s and from the Bluffs you could see all the way to the blast furnaces in Hamilton turning out the steel that fed a multitude of manufacturing plants around Toronto which were all powered by cheap hydro power.
> 
> The blast furnaces like the cheap hydro are all gone. So are most of those manufacturing plants.
> 
> ...


I’d say we poked our eye out.


----------



## Quirky (8 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> Are you trying to be funny or are you for real?



I've never seen someone miss the sarcasm before like this.


----------



## Good2Golf (8 Oct 2022)

Quirky said:


> I've never seen someone miss the sarcasm before like this.


Maybe I should have doubled down on my use of smilies? 😉


----------



## Good2Golf (8 Oct 2022)

childs56 said:


> Hmm
> 
> Are you trying to be funny or are you for real?


Totally serious…just had some dust in the corner of my eye… 😉 

😉 

😉 

😉 

😉 

😉 

😉 

😉


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Maybe I should have doubled down on my use of smilies? 😉



Or picked on BC more, because we produce wayyyyyyy more coal than steenkin' 'Berta 


A tale of two provinces: how coal mining plowed ahead in the B.C. Rockies while Alberta hit the brakes​
While Alberta is a coal-rich province (nearly half of the province sits atop coal deposits), B.C. produces some ten times the volume of metallurgical coal — much of it from massive mountaintop-removal coal mines in the Rockies — and is one of the world’s largest exporters of the so-called black gold. Coal is B.C.’s most valuable mined commodity.









						A tale of two provinces: how coal mining plowed ahead in the B.C. Rockies while Alberta hit the brakes | The Narwhal
					

Mountaintop-removal coal mining is much more prevalent in B.C. than Alberta. To understand why, you need to go back decades to unfurl a story that defies stereotypes of environmental values




					thenarwhal.ca


----------



## Good2Golf (8 Oct 2022)

Because BC is preferentially treated by the Feds because they’re feeding the voracious CO2-generating appetite of Chinese industry, while Alberta is trying to be a responsible resource steward and support Canadian and western energy consumers? 🤔


----------



## rmc_wannabe (8 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Because BC is preferentially treated by the Feds because they’re feeding the voracious CO2-generating appetite of Chinese industry, while Alberta is trying to be a responsible resource steward and support Canadian and western energy consumers? 🤔


That's  lot of words to say the CCP bought up most of the Lower Mainland, but couldn't get a foothold in Fort Mac....


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Because BC is preferentially treated by the Feds because they’re feeding the voracious CO2-generating appetite of Chinese industry, while Alberta is trying to be a responsible resource steward and support Canadian and western energy consumers? 🤔



Um, no.

BC was opened up and run by the mining industry since before the Cariboo Gold Rush of 1858, which sparked the creation of the Province of BC. There were very few people living in the mountainous areas of South Eastern BC, so the miners didn't have to worry about public consultation much. They still don't.

Before China, BC coal was being sold to Japan in the 60s & 70s to fuel their 'economic miracle' and they ramped up like crazy to meet that demand and opened up more coal mines in Tumbler Ridge Tumbler Ridge - Wikipedia

Alberta' was always a ranching/ farming province first and it's flat, so the public has always had lots of access to everywhere. Coal and oil turned up late to the party so the ranchers and recreational users were somewhat more militant as a result. Canmore used to be a coal mining town, for example.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Oct 2022)

Your historical journey of BC coal usage doesn’t change how it is being preferentially treated as an export commodity to China and other Asian manufacturing nations today.   The fact remains that BC rips into the Rocky Mountains within its own very favourable environmental impact assessment and licensing regime, to extract huge amounts of coal and a large portion of the output heads to one of the largest CO2 producers on the planet.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Your historical journey of BC coal usage doesn’t change how it is being preferentially treated as an export commodity to China and other Asian manufacturing nations today.   The fact remains that BC rips into the Rocky Mountains within its own very favourable environmental impact assessment and licensing regime, to extract huge amounts of coal and a large portion of the output heads to one of the largest CO2 producers on the planet.



Yes!


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Your historical journey of BC coal usage doesn’t change how it is being preferentially treated as an export commodity to China and other Asian manufacturing nations today.   The fact remains that BC rips into the Rocky Mountains within its own very favourable environmental impact assessment and licensing regime, to extract huge amounts of coal and a large portion of the output heads to one of the largest CO2 producers on the planet.


BC coal is really high quality, very little goes to power generation, a percentage of it goes to make carbon filters for water purifiers, the rest is for making steel.


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> BC coal is really high quality, very little goes to power generation, a percentage of it goes to make carbon filters for water purifiers, the rest is for making steel.


I must have missed the part where coking doesn’t produce CO2.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (9 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I must have missed the part where coking doesn’t produce CO2.


It absolutely does produce CO2, but the inconvenient truth is that all the steel for all those electric cars and wind turbines and solar arrays cannot be produced without burning coking coal…

Funny old world, isn’t it?


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> BC coal is really high quality, very little goes to power generation, a percentage of it goes to make carbon filters for water purifiers, the rest is for making steel.



Our wood, OTOH 

Wood from B.C. forests is being burned for electricity billed as green — but critics say that's deceptive

The wood pellet industry has been endorsed by Horgan, who calls it a "win-win" for the economy and the environment. B.C. Forests Minister Katrine Conroy has promoted the expansion of the sector into Asia.

Concerns about the industry and its relationship with those who oversee it were exacerbated earlier this year, when the province's longtime chief forester, Diane Nicholls, was hired by Drax as a vice-president.

"Whenever a bureaucrat jumps ship lockstep to an industry that that bureaucrat has made decisions about supporting, I think a polite term is messy," said Simpson. "I think it begs an investigation."

Horgan declined an interview with _The Fifth Estate_. In a statement, Conroy said Nichols was "instrumental in ushering in a new era of forest management planning" and the wood pellet industry helps reduce waste in the forest.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/wood-pellets-bc-forests-green-energy-1.6606921


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Oct 2022)

Wood pellets are a useful byproduct of the Lumber industry. The real issue is the large amount of raw wood being exported and forestry industry suppression of small boutique mills that have to fight through a system that is designed around the large mills of the mid-20th century.


----------



## CBH99 (9 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> It's worse than that; we just drove them away.


And continue to do so…

Perhaps bailing out Bombardier every few years _could have_ come with the condition that new management be brought in, management with a solid plan to get things on track.

Same goes with any other large companies requiring a federal bailout - the financial assistance to them comes with a condition that the same people who drove it into the ground are not the same people in charge afterwards.  


The amount of taxation in Canada isn’t attracting many companies to relocate here. Over the last few years that level of taxation has skyrocketed to the point where those same companies would lose big chunks of their profits due to taxes.  (Especially the carbon tax.)

We need a federal government that is business friendly, takes the initiative to attract business to Canada, and doesn’t automatically say no when a company does make a proposal just because it has to do with the energy sector.


----------



## TacticalTea (27 Nov 2022)

Trudeau government unveils long-awaited plan to confront an 'increasingly disruptive' China
		


Briefing this afternoon: Minister Anand to discuss the Indo-Pacific Strategy - Canada.ca

The BBC, on protests and happenings in China right now: China Covid: Protesters openly urge Xi to resign over China Covid curbs

Someone said recently, that Xi's consolidation of power at the latest congress marked the peak of his power and that, in all likelihood, it would only go down from here. These protests are an encouraging sign that that assessment may have been accurate. As in Iran, I do not expect that they will lead to anything immediately, but it is good to see that the Chinese have not surrendered hope and a sense of dignity. The protestors of today are keeping lit the path of the insurgents of tomorrow.

Sadly, I do expect unchecked brutality to be well within the regime's range of options.


----------



## Quirky (28 Nov 2022)

Minister Anand announces defence and security elements of Canada’s Indo-Pacific Strategy​





						Minister Anand announces defence and security elements of Canada’s Indo-Pacific Strategy - Canada.ca
					

I join you from the traditional territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation, the Huron-Wendat and the Haudenosaunee. Today and every day, we reaffirm our commitment towards meaningful reconciliation and respectful partnership with Indigenous peoples.




					www.canada.ca
				




Sooooo, does the Navy have the resources to do this?


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Minister Anand announces defence and security elements of Canada’s Indo-Pacific Strategy​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol, no, not sustainably.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Minister Anand announces defence and security elements of Canada’s Indo-Pacific Strategy​
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have they done the math on the increase in release/ divorce rates as a result of this one, I wonder? 


"In  particular, we will boost our annual naval deployments from two to three frigates. This third frigate will sail from Canadian Forces Base Halifax to the region every year – boosting our presence, particularly in the Indian Ocean."


----------



## GR66 (28 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Have they done the math on the increase in release/ divorce rates as a result of this one, I wonder?
> 
> 
> "In  particular, we will boost our annual naval deployments from two to three frigates. This third frigate will sail from Canadian Forces Base Halifax to the region every year – boosting our presence, particularly in the Indian Ocean."


Extend/modify an existing Atlantic/Med deployment to go through the Suez Canal to show the colours in the Indian Ocean?

Sure doesn't sound like "Reconstitution" does it?  But don't worry...."Ready, Aye, Ready!"


----------



## Quirky (28 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> "In particular, we will boost our annual naval deployments from two to three frigates. This third frigate will sail from Canadian Forces Base Halifax to the region every year – boosting our presence, particularly in the Indian Ocean."



Didn't realize that our frigates are autonomous and can be operated remotely. Surely, we have the manpower for all this....

CDS: We can't do what the government asks of us with the manpower and equipment we have. I order RECONSITUTION.
MND: You go do more now with what little you have like a good little soldier.

I don't think these two are on the same page.


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Didn't realize that our frigates are autonomous and can be operated remotely. Surely, we have the manpower for all this....
> 
> CDS: We can't do what the government asks of us with the manpower and equipment we have. I order RECONSITUTION.
> MND: You go do more now with what little you have like a good little soldier.
> ...


No worries, the RCN wasn't paying attention anyway!  We'll probably still want to have 2-3 frigates a year nearby the Ukraine as well, and maybe a few MCDVs.

Will be a neat trick with 4 full frigate crews, and a few skeleton crews. ALl on ships which are already questionable if they should be at sea at all. Maybe will start a pool at MEPM to see whose equipment shuts down deployments first?


----------



## KevinB (29 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> Didn't realize that our frigates are autonomous and can be operated remotely. Surely, we have the manpower for all this....
> 
> CDS: We can't do what the government asks of us with the manpower and equipment we have. I order RECONSITUTION.
> MND: You go do more now with what little you have like a good little soldier.
> ...


But it does give a solid reason for at least 15 CSC.  
  Also Reconstitution was not supposed to shut down Operations, just shutdown unnecessary other functions.


----------



## Czech_pivo (29 Nov 2022)

GR66 said:


> Extend/modify an existing Atlantic/Med deployment to go through the Suez Canal to show the colours in the Indian Ocean?
> 
> Sure doesn't sound like "Reconstitution" does it?  But don't worry...."Ready, Aye, Ready!"


Sounds a bit like the Russian Baltic Fleet sailing to Vladivostok back in 1905, over and over and over again, year after year.


----------



## Czech_pivo (29 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Have they done the math on the increase in release/ divorce rates as a result of this one, I wonder?
> 
> 
> "In  particular, we will boost our annual naval deployments from two to three frigates. This third frigate will sail from Canadian Forces Base Halifax to the region every year – boosting our presence, particularly in the Indian Ocean."


I fixed a few of the snippets from the article:

"From my *one sided *conversations with friends, allies, and partners at the forum, I *was told in no uncertain terms *consistently heard great enthusiasm for  *that lack of *Canadian leadership on the world stage, as like-minded nations tackle the mounting threats to our shared *was doing virtually nothing in helping today's *rules-based international order."

"We will *not *challenge China when we ought to, we will *do as little as possible to upset China and will *cooperate with China when*ever we* want must, and we will work closely with our allies and partners *only after they call us out and threaten our economic well being *to help maintain peace, security, and stability in the region, *by looking to convey as many meetings as possible."

"As I outlined when I visited Singapore this June for the Shangri-La Dialogue, as a Pacific nation, Canada makes several valuable contributions to regional security the pastry table, special shout out to Tim Hortons."

"Wherever I go, our allies and partners say that they want to see more of missed seeing any semblance of the Canada they knew, respected and were accustomed to back in the 1950's and 1960's."

"Today, we’re announcing an investment of 369.4 million dollars, by moving money from other severely stretched military budgets in the RCAF and Canadian Army to the RCN to maintain and increase our naval presence in the region."

"As part of this new program, Canada will lead training initiatives that focus on the Women, Peace and Security Agenda, thereby increasing awareness of gender issues across the region, informed by our work at home to build a more inclusive military because we all know that first attack wave against Taiwan will be an elite all women strike force, highlighting the superiority of the modern Chinese Communist woman/mother."

"To conclude, these four defence initiatives, along with a meaningful Canadian contribution of 2 (two) of unopened bags of chips and 1 (one) container of dip taken together, will lead to a safer and more peaceful Indo-Pacific region."*


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> I fixed a few of the snippets from the article:
> 
> "From my *one sided *conversations with friends, allies, and partners at the forum, I *was told in no uncertain terms *consistently heard great enthusiasm for  *that lack of *Canadian leadership on the world stage, as like-minded nations tackle the mounting threats to our shared *was doing virtually nothing in helping today's *rules-based international order."
> 
> ...


But Mélanie Joly *CONVENED* a meeting with the Russian Ambassador to answer for Anti-LGBTQ tweets! 😄

#WeAreBack



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/russia-joly-lgbtq-tweets-1.6666798


----------



## Kirkhill (29 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Or picked on BC more, because we produce wayyyyyyy more coal than steenkin' 'Berta
> 
> 
> A tale of two provinces: how coal mining plowed ahead in the B.C. Rockies while Alberta hit the brakes​
> ...



But that's back beyond the Port Mann bridge - its in the Alberta part of BC.   Or should I say the BC part of Alberta?  The good part where you can sustainably destroy coal mountains, suck out natural gas, build pipe lines over fault lines and drown valleys to produce clean hydro electricity.


----------



## Kirkhill (29 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Um, no.
> 
> BC was opened up and run by the mining industry since before the Cariboo Gold Rush of 1858, which sparked the creation of the Province of BC. There were very few people living in the mountainous areas of South Eastern BC, so the miners didn't have to worry about public consultation much. They still don't.
> 
> ...



Mannix, Loram, Coril



			Legacy  |  Coril Holdings


----------



## Kirkhill (29 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yep and we have consistently undermined and undercut our primary and secondary industries in favour of tertiary and quaternary sector.
> 
> What actually amazes me is how much we've actually let our manufacturing sector decline relative to our other G8 Nations, all of whom remain in the Top 10 Manufacturing Countries by Output.
> 
> It's surprising because I was always told that secondary economic activity will decline naturally as a Country becomes more advanced but that only appears to actually be the case for Canada.  It also appears to be a deliberate choice.



This discussion actually revolves around the word "productivity".

All of these primary and secondary industries have been able to benefit from technology to make fewer workers more productive.  We didn't need to shut down plants as older workers retired.  We needed to hire younger workers with different skills.

The same thing is true on the pollution front.  We didn't need to shut down plants because of pollution.  More productive workers in more efficient plants improve profits that can be, in part, invested in making plants cleaner - and clean plants are generally safer and more efficient.   Additional benefits may accrue from byproducts harvested from the captured waste streams.

My preferred example is incinerators.  Some of which burn wood pellets.  Some burn trash.  Some burn coals of various grades.   We shut them down or built them in the back of beyond in places like Swan Hills.

The Swedes built them downtown in every community.  Then captured the exhaust, generated electricity and distributed the heat to the factories, warehouses, stores, apartments and houses in the neighbourhood.

This isn't all on the Canadian government.  Canadian investors are truly among the most conservative anywhere.  Especially the Liberal ones.  Their first inclination is to find out if their is anymore Canadian Pacific money available from the government.


----------



## Kirkhill (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> I fixed a few of the snippets from the article:
> 
> "From my *one sided *conversations with friends, allies, and partners at the forum, I *was told in no uncertain terms *consistently heard great enthusiasm for  *that lack of *Canadian leadership on the world stage, as like-minded nations tackle the mounting threats to our shared *was doing virtually nothing in helping today's *rules-based international order."
> 
> ...




You missed a bit



> I join you from the traditional territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation, the Huron-Wendat and the Haudenosaunee. Today and every day, we reaffirm our commitment towards meaningful reconciliation and respectful partnership with Indigenous peoples.



"We'll fix that reconciliation thing as soon as the Mississauga, Huron-Wendat and Haudenosaunee decide on their names and who had first claim on the land"


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> I fixed a few of the snippets from the article:
> 
> "From my *one sided *conversations with friends, allies, and partners at the forum, I *was told in no uncertain terms *consistently heard great enthusiasm for  *that lack of *Canadian leadership on the world stage, as like-minded nations tackle the mounting threats to our shared *was doing virtually nothing in helping today's *rules-based international order."
> 
> ...


If Canada was being pragmatic, we would be putting more money into the RCN and RCAF, the forces that are constantly out the door on operations across the globe. The army needs lots of love as well, but it has a very limited role in the Indo-Pacific, which is a priority region for our partners/allies.   

While the "cocktail party" deployments might seem to be achieving nothing, they are an important show of force in the region, are peppered with multiple TG exercises with hosting nations, and put RCN ships right at the heart of the political hotspots.


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> If Canada was being pragmatic, we would be putting more money into the RCN and RCAF, the forces that are constantly out the door on operations across the globe. The army needs lots of love as well, but it has a very limited role in the Indo-Pacific, which is a priority region for our partners/allies.
> 
> While the "cocktail party" deployments might seem to be achieving nothing, they are an important show of force in the region, are peppered with multiple TG exercises with hosting nations, and put RCN ships right at the heart of the political hotspots.


Back in 2015 CHA hosted a cocktail party in Alexandria to wave the flag with Egypt, do some work with their forces, and then went back to patrolling around the Russians doing missile strikes/bombing runs into Syria a few days later. It was pretty funny as some of our female sailors had questions from other countries who still don't have any woman serving in combat roles. We also did some less formal things with the Romanians and some others as part of Op Active Endeavor while in the Black Sea, so was a good outreach for allies that were actively worried about RUssian aggression (for good reason), and generally just get together with forces we were working with to put names to faces but also talk shop to figure out the difference to how we do things.

Not a big fan of the port to port for endless cocktail parties, but it isn't an either/or type thing (or used to be with Stewards around... good one CRCN). Pretty easy way for the local ambassador to get folks out and shake hands, so definitely a good way for diplomatic outreach (if done right).


----------



## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Back in 2015 CHA hosted a cocktail party in Alexandria to wave the flag with Egypt, do some work with their forces, and then went back to patrolling around the Russians doing missile strikes/bombing runs into Syria a few days later. It was pretty funny as some of our female sailors had questions from other countries who still don't have any woman serving in combat roles. We also did some less formal things with the Romanians and some others as part of Op Active Endeavor while in the Black Sea, so was a good outreach for allies that were actively worried about RUssian aggression (for good reason), and generally just get together with forces we were working with to put names to faces but also talk shop to figure out the difference to how we do things.
> 
> Not a big fan of the port to port for endless cocktail parties, but it isn't an either/or type thing (or used to be with Stewards around... good one CRCN). Pretty easy way for the local ambassador to get folks out and shake hands, so definitely a good way for diplomatic outreach (if done right).


I had a broadly similar experience on my Reassurance, and "Poseidon's Pear" (now Projection) trips. Even my Artemis trip back in 2012 had an element of cocktail parties on the transit home past India, and Singapore.


----------



## FSTO (29 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Back in 2015 CHA hosted a cocktail party in Alexandria to wave the flag with Egypt, do some work with their forces, and then went back to patrolling around the Russians doing missile strikes/bombing runs into Syria a few days later. It was pretty funny as some of our female sailors had questions from other countries who still don't have any woman serving in combat roles. We also did some less formal things with the Romanians and some others as part of Op Active Endeavor while in the Black Sea, so was a good outreach for allies that were actively worried about RUssian aggression (for good reason), and generally just get together with forces we were working with to put names to faces but also talk shop to figure out the difference to how we do things.
> 
> Not a big fan of the port to port for endless cocktail parties, but it isn't an either/or type thing (or used to be with Stewards around... good one CRCN). Pretty easy way for the local ambassador to get folks out and shake hands, so definitely a good way for diplomatic outreach (if done right).


Diplomacy work being done by Navies is an enduring aspect of that service since before the time of the Phoenicians. And that includes being a platform for the velvet glove set to show the flag. Even without the cocktail parties, it has been my experience that we'd host a myriad of military, government, and industry types in Wardroom at every foreign port.


----------



## CBH99 (29 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Have they done the math on the increase in release/ divorce rates as a result of this one, I wonder?
> 
> 
> "In  particular, we will boost our annual naval deployments from two to three frigates. This third frigate will sail from Canadian Forces Base Halifax to the region every year – boosting our presence, particularly in the Indian Ocean."


Okay, so I know they say there are no such things as stupid questions.  But…

Doesn’t it make more sense to deploy the ship from the Pacific Fleet to go to the Indian Ocean?


(Or does deploying an Atlantic ship make more sense due to more ports to stop at along the way, if need be?)


----------



## Spencer100 (29 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> This isn't all on the Canadian government.  Canadian investors are truly among the most conservative anywhere.  Especially the Liberal ones.  Their first inclination is to find out if their is anymore Canadian Pacific money available from the government.


Not just inventors, the business leaders too.  Go thought the names of the Canadian companies that were world class. sold out or failed by being too risk adverse.  The list is long.  Funny thing all the CP companies were bought by foreign companies but for the rail (that is protected by the government)  CP Ship to Hapag-Lloyd. CP hotels to Fairmont. etc.  The largest Canadian companies are the ones with government protection.  Banks, telcos etc.  But for BAM and Alimentation Couche-Tard.  
​


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (29 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Okay, so I know they say there are no such things as stupid questions.  But…
> 
> Doesn’t it make more sense to deploy the ship from the Pacific Fleet to go to the Indian Ocean?
> 
> ...


The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Halifax is 7500NM via the Suez Canal.

The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Esquimalt is 11500NM. 

It takes roughly two weeks longer to get there and you can be in theatre for less time.

Then there is also the fact that we don't exactly have a lot of friends between Guam and Oman.  It's pretty barren out there, services are limited and for a Navy with very little in the way of support, it's a much easier undertaking to sail there from Europe, especially with all the Allied/NATO ports we can call on.

The Pacific is absolutely massive.  The Atlantic is a kiddie pool in comparison.


----------



## CBH99 (29 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Halifax is 7500NM via the Suez Canal.
> 
> The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Esquimalt is 11500NM.
> 
> ...


I always forget just ‘how’ massive the Pacific is.


----------



## Czech_pivo (29 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Halifax is 7500NM via the Suez Canal.
> 
> The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Esquimalt is 11500NM.
> 
> ...


So then maybe we should be considering forward stationing a frigate in Diego Garcia.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> So then maybe we should be considering forward stationing a frigate in Diego Garcia.



Especially if the RCN needs somewhere to post its 'Penal Battalion 999' type personnel 






						999th Light Afrika Division (Wehrmacht) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## GR66 (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> So then maybe we should be considering forward stationing a frigate in Diego Garcia.


In the interest of strengthening Franco-Canadian co-operation I'd vote for French Polynesia.


----------



## Czech_pivo (29 Nov 2022)

GR66 said:


> In the interest of strengthening Franco-Canadian co-operation I'd vote for French Polynesia.


Tahiti - I'd enlist for that posting. 
Mr Christian, ensemble the men!


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Nov 2022)

Deleted


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## FSTO (29 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Halifax is 7500NM via the Suez Canal.
> 
> The transit to the Gulf of Oman from Esquimalt is 11500NM.
> 
> ...


I was listening to one of the talking heads on one of the networks questioning the sending of a MARLANT ship to the Indian Ocean. Yep, some folks should have a globe on their desk.


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> So then maybe we should be considering forward stationing a frigate in Diego Garcia.


Subic Bay ...


----------



## TacticalTea (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> So then maybe we should be considering forward stationing a frigate in Diego Garcia.




Yes, please!


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## Czech_pivo (29 Nov 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Subic Bay ...


That makes perfect sense, especially if the US is heading back there.  Could easily mate that with the 'strengthening ties' initiative part of the programme.


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## Humphrey Bogart (29 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> I was listening to one of the talking heads on one of the networks questioning the sending of a MARLANT ship to the Indian Ocean. Yep, some folks should have a globe on their desk.


That or an ability to understand Speed, Time & Distance 😄


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## Halifax Tar (29 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> That or an ability to understand Speed, Time & Distance 😄



Huff.  You can take that kind of ship handling talk and put it in your pocket.


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## dimsum (29 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> View attachment 75182
> View attachment 75183
> Yes, please!


Yeah, except its proximity to...well, nothing.  

Rotating crews out there for 6-month stints?  Maybe.  

Posting folks and their families out there?  Good luck.


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## dimsum (29 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Huff.  You can take that kind of ship handling talk and put it in your pocket.


Psst - that's not just specific to ships


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## Halifax Tar (29 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> Psst - that's not just specific to ships



I love you RCAF


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## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

I'd rather we settle into Sembawang or Changi, we could likely make it a real posting with families and all In Singapore.


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## Humphrey Bogart (29 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Huff.  You can take that kind of ship handling talk and put it in your pocket.



I still use it everyday in my new line of work 😁



dimsum said:


> Yeah, except its proximity to...well, nothing.
> 
> Rotating crews out there for 6-month stints?  Maybe.
> 
> ...


I would be such an alcoholic if I spent more than a week there.  Absolutely awesome spot to drink though!


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## Navy_Pete (29 Nov 2022)

I'm sure at some point they'll float the idea of moving an east coast CPF to the west coast again (and then wonder why they suddenly get a lot of releases).

Sure the RCN is just chomping at the bit here and ignoring what happens when we try and send ships to the Pacific Rim when they aren't in great shape (re: PRO and ALG).


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## FJAG (29 Nov 2022)

I wonder how much wear and tear and fuel etc we'd save on ships if we put a little Task Group in with the Americans in Japan and rotated crews through on the odd C17 every four months or so? Could probably work out the running maintenance there too.

I guess its a question as to how serious we are about this shift to the Pacific?


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## Furniture (29 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> I wonder how much wear and tear and fuel etc we'd save on ships if we put a little Task Group in with the Americans in Japan and rotated crews through on the odd C17 every four months or so? Could probably work out the running maintenance there too.
> 
> I guess its a question as to how serious we are about this shift to the Pacific?


Japan would also likely be a somewhat reasonable place to post people, and their families, as the Americans do.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> I wonder how much wear and tear and fuel etc we'd save on ships if we put a little Task Group in with the Americans in Japan and rotated crews through on the odd C17 every four months or so? Could probably work out the running maintenance there too.
> 
> I guess its a question as to how serious we are about this shift to the Pacific?


This is the same Navy whose no 1 priority is Wifi on a combatant?


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## TacticalTea (29 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> This is the same Navy whose no 1 priority is Wifi on a combatant?


Speaking of which, can't we just use Starlink now? Its constellation pretty much covers the entire planet except for the poles.


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## Kirkhill (29 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Speaking of which, can't we just use Starlink now? Its constellation pretty much covers the entire planet except for the poles.



What did the Poles do to Musk?


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## rmc_wannabe (29 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Speaking of which, can't we just use Starlink now? Its constellation pretty much covers the entire planet except for the poles.



You will take your 4.8 mbps WGS link and like it, young man...


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## dimsum (29 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> What did the Poles do to Musk?


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## TacticalTea (29 Nov 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> You will take your 4.8 mbps WGS link and like it, young man...


I don't like your funny words, signals man.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> I wonder how much wear and tear and fuel etc we'd save on ships if we put a little Task Group in with the Americans in Japan and rotated crews through on the odd C17 every four months or so? Could probably work out the running maintenance there too.
> 
> I guess its a question as to how serious we are about this shift to the Pacific?



The words 'Trudeau Government' and 'Serious' don't usually appear in the same sentence for a reason


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## Czech_pivo (29 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> That makes perfect sense, especially if the US is heading back there.  Could easily mate that with the 'strengthening ties' initiative part of the programme.





TacticalTea said:


> Speaking of which, can't we just use Starlink now? Its constellation pretty much covers the entire planet except for the poles.


Why are you picking on the Poles? What have they done to piss off Musk?


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## rmc_wannabe (29 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I don't like your funny words, signals man.



Neither do I 😞.


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## FSTO (29 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> I wonder how much wear and tear and fuel etc we'd save on ships if we put a little Task Group in with the Americans in Japan and rotated crews through on the odd C17 every four months or so? Could probably work out the running maintenance there too.
> 
> I guess its a question as to how serious we are about this shift to the Pacific?


Well that group of USN ships had a problem with maintenance and running ships into the ground.









						7th Fleet Overworked, Suffered Manning Shortage Ahead of Fatal Collisions, Says Former CO Aucoin - USNI News
					

This post was updated to correct circumstances of a Jan. 31, 2017 incident involving the guided-missile cruiser USS Antietam (CG-54). The ship suffered a grounding, not a collision. U.S. warships in the Western Pacific were overtasked and starved for manpower ahead of two fatal collisions that...




					news.usni.org


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## Maxman1 (3 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'd rather we settle into Sembawang or Changi, we could likely make it a real posting with families and all In Singapore.



And on the Atlantic, maybe resurrect CFS Bermuda, or perhaps build a station in Turks and Caicos.


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## Grimey (3 Dec 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> That makes perfect sense, especially if the US is heading back there.  Could easily mate that with the 'strengthening ties' initiative part of the programme.


Wasn’t Guam supposed to be the renewed Subic Bay/Clark AFB without the volcano and political unrest threat?


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## Grimey (3 Dec 2022)

FJAG said:


> I wonder how much wear and tear and fuel etc we'd save on ships if we put a little Task Group in with the Americans in Japan and rotated crews through on the odd C17 every four months or so? Could probably work out the running maintenance there too.
> 
> I guess its a question as to how serious we are about this shift to the Pacific?


IIRC this was done during Op Friction in 90/91 with PRO.  Not sure about ATH or TER.  The RN have been doing it for years with their forward deployed T23’s and MCM vessels in the Gulf, and more recently with River B2‘s all over the Pacific.

Loads of potential maintenance options too outside of the obvious, like Lumut and Changi.


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## Humphrey Bogart (3 Dec 2022)

Grimey said:


> IIRC this was done during Op Friction in 90/91 with PRO.  Not sure about ATH or TER.  The RN have been doing it for years with their forward deployed T23’s and MCM vessels in the Gulf, and more recently with River B2‘s all over the Pacific.
> 
> Loads of potential maintenance options too outside of the obvious, like Lumut and Changi.


The Royal Navy have actually built themselves a nice little Naval Base in Duqm, Oman.  It's a great spot in a friendly Nation and eliminates the problem of having to transit through the Strait of Hormuz towards Jufair in Bahrain (their former base).  I've sailed in to it a number of times and would be a perfect spot for a forward deployment base.









						Duqm Port - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




It has a drydock capable of supporting the Queen Elizabeth Class Carrier's, has maintenance facilities and plenty of birthing space.  The Royal Navy has a Frigate permanently stationed there at all times.


Note that the Frigate HMS Montrose already used the docking facilities to overhaul their forward deployed vessels:









						Montrose back on patrol after overhaul in Oman
					

Frigate HMS Montrose has become the first Royal Navy warship to be overhauled in a new port in the Middle East.




					www.royalnavy.mod.uk


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## Furniture (3 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The Royal Navy have actually built themselves a nice little Naval Base in Duqm, Oman.  It's a great spot in a friendly Nation and eliminates the problem of having to transit through the Strait of Hormuz towards Jufair in Bahrain (their former base).  I've sailed in to it a number of times and would be a perfect spot for a forward deployment base.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had been thinking Oman as well. I've only been to Muscat, but it seemed to be the only country in that region that didn't dislike us just for being Canadian.


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## dapaterson (3 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> I had been thinking Oman as well. I've only been to Muscat, but it seemed to be the only country in that region that didn't dislike us just for being Canadian.



That's only because we haven't stationed a frigate there yet...


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## dimsum (3 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> I had been thinking Oman as well. I've only been to Muscat, but it seemed to be the only country in that region that didn't dislike up just for being Canadian.


_Challenge accepted_


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## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2022)

Mike Day smells more virtue signaling ... quel suprise! 


LGen. (retd) Mike Day: Canada's Indo-Pacific Plan actually needs a plan​The government wants to be seen doing stuff as opposed to being held to account on what the expenditure of the time, effort and money might produce.​
A formal public-policy statement from the Government of Canada is a rare thing. It is even rarer when it is not just a speech but a published written document. The rarest of these is undoubtedly when such a document focuses on foreign policy. When Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly recently pitched her “once-in-a-generation shift” toward the Indo-Pacific, much was made of why Canada was doing it and what it would achieve. No fewer than four cabinet ministers took part in the announcement. Canada will, they announced, step up naval patrols of the region, continue to expand trade with China while also tightening our protections of intellectual property and ownership rules for strategic industries, and use “Team Canada” trade missions to boost commercial links with other growing regional economic powers, including India. We seek also to expand our intelligence and cybersecurity links with allies and partners in the region.

Now that the dust on the rhetoric has settled, closer examination reveals that this might simply be an exercise of branding separate activities into a marketing-friendly bundle, as opposed to a coherent plan focused on achieving specific outcomes.

In examining the document two approaches are equally useful in assessing value: whether the content has some substance and whether the policy framework is sufficiently robust to hang various activities and plans on its body.

Three hints are provided as to why the new plan might not be the cornerstone of Canada’s foreign policy that it portends to be. Firstly, operating in the “National Interest,” a phrase used six separate times over the 26 pages, is given neither form nor function and lacks any definition. It is reminiscent of the Cheshire Cat talking to Alice asking her “where do you want to get to.” When Alice replies that “I don’t much care…” the Cheshire Cat wisely suggests that “Then it doesn’t matter which way you go.” With no definition of national interests pretty much anything can be hand waved as to being necessary and required, or not, for its achievement.

This leads in turn to the second hint that the plan might be more posturing than substance. Lacking the single aimpoint of operating in the national interest, the “objectives” supposedly fill that gap by providing a set of specific achievements which in combination would be a sufficiently clear aimpoint. But normally objectives can, and should, be thought of as something specific and measurable, allowing plans to be developed to achieve them. “Save 100 dollars this month” or perhaps, in more relevant terms, “Increase our trade in the Indo-Pacific region by 100 per cent over the five years of this policy enactment.” Plans can then be developed to achieve those objectives. But reviewing those objectives reveals that they are themselves actions, not end-states. It appears that the policy is based on “doing, not achieving.” I am reminded of my sons many years ago. When asked if their rooms were clean, they would reply, “I’m cleaning it.” The process was enduring but we most certainly disagreed on the value of the activity as opposed to achieving a measurable result. Under this construct the government can claim that as long as Canada is doing stuff the policy should be considered a success.

This is not to say that the activities, listed and cloaked as objectives, aren’t laudable in and of themselves. Few could argue that “Promoting peace, resilience and security” isn’t something worth doing, nor that “Building a sustainable and green future” isn’t a necessary activity should we wish our great grandchildren to enjoy some semblance of the life we did when younger. Rather the issue is with the pure semantical dodge ball that is being played with such language. The government wants to be seen doing stuff as opposed to being held to account on what the expenditure of the time, effort and money might produce. Taxpayers should expect more clarity.

And this leads to the third hint that the policy is more branding than substance. Nobody can deny that hyperbole is a politician’s favourite oratory tool, but even for a politician a “once-in-a-generation global shift that requires a generational Canadian response” is pitching high and fast. The government’s own 2022-2023 estimates suggest that approximately $190 billion will be spent on program spending by our elected federal officials. Even if under the highly improbable circumstances of total federal spending remaining constant, the portion allocated to the Indo-Pacific policy, $2.3 billion over 5 years, would be slightly less than a quarter of a percent of these expenditures. Not quite proportional to the focus suggested in its description.

Diving into some of the specifics and recognizing that this is, as it should be, mostly an economic and diplomatic focused document, a quick review of National Defence-associated activities (merely as an illustrative example, as they are the only details released to date) further emphasizes that this shift is perhaps more modest than the government would have us believe. National Defence Minister Anita Anand quickly followed the policy reveal with detailed specifics, identifying a total of $476.3 million over five years, of which $230 million was new money. It is difficult to argue that $230 million or even $476.3 million is a material sum compared to the $100 billion National Defence has been allocated over the same period of time. This is not to condemn the actual activities themselves, all which seem to be thoughtful and likely useful in improving an enduring relationship, but rather it reveals that this is a tremendously modest and incremental adjustment, most especially in comparison to other government initiatives.

In order to be successful, governments need to plan. Results are achieved when good policy, based on clear, focused objectives, results in executable plans. Plans, at least conceptually, are simple constructs. They are a combination of mixing together people conducting specific activities, with the necessary resources, over a period of time in order to achieve a set objective. The government might yet salvage this policy if, during the necessary development of these plans, the various departments implicated in the policy are able to demonstrate that what they are doing is effective in achieving clearly stated objectives. It might not be the scope and scale of change the political rhetoric promises but it is likely a useful and needed adjustment for a Pacific country which is increasingly leery about its closest ally to the south.

In business terms the Indo-Pacific Policy is likely a minimum viable product, but as is the case in all such efforts, rapid and constant improvement will be needed to evolve this approach into something that has real enduring value to Canadians. The first step might be defining what is our national interest, quickly followed by more than merely describing what we are doing and instead identifying what it is we are trying to achieve.









						LGen. (retd) Mike Day: Canada's Indo-Pacific Plan actually needs a plan
					

The government wants to be seen doing stuff as opposed to being held to account on what the expenditure of the time, effort and money might produce.




					theline.substack.com


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## Maxman1 (8 Dec 2022)

The plan will plan itself.


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## rmc_wannabe (8 Dec 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> The plan will plan itself.



A plan is a vision with steps put to paper. 

This? This is 8 sets of contradictory ideas, peppered with buzz words, and  written with less care and thought than my daughter's letter to Santa Claus. 

I don't see this coming at all to fruition.


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## MilEME09 (8 Dec 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> A plan is a vision with steps put to paper.
> 
> This? This is 8 sets of contradictory ideas, peppered with buzz words, and  written with less care and thought than my daughter's letter to Santa Claus.
> 
> I don't see this coming at all to fruition.


Give me two cases of good beer, 10 Cpls, a note pad and paper, ill have you a plan by morning.

Seriously though this is all because the governments "white papers" aren't worth what they are written on and over no strategic vision for what the government wants us to be. Followed up with lack of funding....well you all know the rest


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## CBH99 (9 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> We sold off all our World Class companies for pennies on the dollar.


Why did we do this?

Was it a matter of desperation?  

Not being able to compete with manufacturing in China?  or big American companies taking over their market space?

Just short sightedness. & greed?


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## rmc_wannabe (9 Dec 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Why did we do this?
> 
> Was it a matter of desperation?
> 
> ...



Everything above pretty much.


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## OldSolduer (9 Dec 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> A plan is a vision with steps put to paper.
> 
> This? This is 8 sets of contradictory ideas, peppered with buzz words, and  written with less care and thought than my daughter's letter to Santa Claus.
> 
> I don't see this coming at all to fruition.


I have a shitload of time for Mike Day. In fact he was the best OC I ever had the honor of working for.

As to your comments


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## Good2Golf (9 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I have a shitload of time for Mike Day. In fact he was the best OC I ever had the honor of working for.
> 
> As to your comments


I believe rmc_wannabe was referring to the claptrap of Minister Joly’s announcement.  At least that’s how I took it.


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## KevinB (9 Dec 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> I believe rmc_wannabe was referring to the claptrap of Minister Joly’s announcement.  At least that’s how I took it.


Same


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## rmc_wannabe (9 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I have a shitload of time for Mike Day. In fact he was the best OC I ever had the honor of working for.
> 
> As to your comments



I have respect for Mike Day as well. My comments were directed at the Indo-Pacific "Policy". 

I should have clarified


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## Kirkhill (9 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> LGen. (retd) Mike Day:
> 
> It might not be the scope and scale of change the political rhetoric promises but it is* likely a useful and needed adjustment for a Pacific country which is increasingly leery about its closest ally to the so**ut**h.*



And that, I believe, defines the beginning and the end of the situation.  Huawei and AUKUS have left us a multiverse away from this -


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## Good2Golf (9 Dec 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> And that, I believe, defines the beginning and the end of the situation.  Huawei and AUKUS have left us a multiverse away from this -


What, a Canadian PM sitting to the side thinking he’s in on the deal?


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## Kirkhill (9 Dec 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> What, a Canadian PM sitting to the side thinking he’s in on the deal?



At least he pretended to care - or perhaps he was getting better advice from his dead mother and dog than the new guy gets from his advisors.


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## Kirkhill (9 Dec 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Why did we do this?
> 
> Was it a matter of desperation?
> 
> ...



Or it was a retirement plan.

Build up a target for takeover and let the next guy manage the grief of a saturated, highly competitive market while you commute between timeshares.


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## rmc_wannabe (9 Dec 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> At least he pretended to care - or perhaps he was getting better advice from his dead mother and dog than the new guy gets from his advisors.



WLMK was a huge nutter, but he had solid understanding that war was coming and acted accordingly.

It also helped having folks like C.D. Howe, Ernest Lapointe, and LSL working on your team. People who wanted to get the job done, as opposed to the menagerie of Muppets occupying cabinet positions.


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## Kirkhill (9 Dec 2022)

Either way, for whatever reason, the ties that that 1943 photograph represent, feel a long time sundered.

The Canadian Establishment's ties with Britain - they were cut in 1973.  But that also represented the starting of them cutting themselves loose from the Anglo-Saxon order, the liberal democrats of WWII.


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## RangerRay (9 Dec 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> The Canadian Establishment's ties with Britain - they were cut in 1973.


There were a couple other years I had in mind. Why 1973 in particular?


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## dapaterson (9 Dec 2022)

RangerRay said:


> There were a couple other years I had in mind. Why 1973 in particular?



Foreman defeated Frazier.


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## Colin Parkinson (9 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The Royal Navy have actually built themselves a nice little Naval Base in Duqm, Oman.  It's a great spot in a friendly Nation and eliminates the problem of having to transit through the Strait of Hormuz towards Jufair in Bahrain (their former base).  I've sailed in to it a number of times and would be a perfect spot for a forward deployment base.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Good2Golf (9 Dec 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Foreman defeated Frazier.


I was going to go with “The King won Daytona 500.”


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## Kirkhill (10 Dec 2022)

RangerRay said:


> There were a couple other years I had in mind. Why 1973 in particular?



Ted Heath, Richard Nixon, Pierre Trudeau.

Pierre Trudeau, no fan of the Brits.
Ted Heath, factional adherent of Lord Halifax, joined Britain to the UK and cut it adrift from the Commonwealth, including Canada - leaving Anglo-Canadians with out a champion.
Richard Nixon, broke the last of the Bretton Woods ties by destroying the last link to the gold standard leaving the US as arbiter or Western Finances making the UK-Euro alliance seem all the more justified.

Canada - caught in the backwash, where it has been ever since.


----------

