# Driving Backup Signals



## Thaddaeus (18 Jun 2015)

Good day. I am new to my DND 404's. Was wondering if there was an offical guide out there somewhere that displays the standard hand-signals for backing up vehicles. I've been seeing a lot of variation in how people are doing it.

Thanks.


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## RedcapCrusader (18 Jun 2015)

Ground Guiding? I've got an old tankers manual at home that I can upload the hand signals out of. That's the only thing I can find.


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

A quick interjection here.

Crossing ones arms above their head is NOT "STOP".  

It is a handsignal used when operating a hoist or crane, indicating to stop movement of the crane, not the vehicle.


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## RedcapCrusader (18 Jun 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> A quick interjection here.
> 
> Crossing ones arms above their head is NOT "STOP".
> 
> It is a handsignal used when operating a hoist or crane, indicating to stop movement of the crane, not the vehicle.



Correct. Palms flat and straight out in front is a signal to STOP... unless you're in the middle east... then it means "Welcome."


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

Having a heck of a time posting 12 pages of Ground Guide Signals.


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

Stuck with doing two pages at a time:


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

A couple more (halfway):


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

7 and 8 of 12:


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

9 and 10 of 12:


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

11 and 12 of 12 ( My pdf file was to large so had to break it down to jpg images of each page.):


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## RedcapCrusader (18 Jun 2015)

Those are exactly the ones I was going to put up! 

Thanks George.


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## George Wallace (18 Jun 2015)

A couple of points for those who do not know the difference between a "Neutral Turn" and a "Pivot Turn".  A "Neutral Turn" is when a tank can turn by making one track go forward and the other reverse, allowing it to turn on the spot (leaving a perfect donut on the pavement from its rubber trackpads).  A "Pivot Turn" is where one track is locked and the other track moves (Forward or Reverse) and the vehicle 'slides' around in a turn.

The Leopard will do a "Neutral Turn" with the gear selected in Neutral.  It will do a "Pivot Turn" if it is in a Forward or Reverse gear.

NOTE:   WARNING:  The daytime hand signals can be used at night, dispensing with your flashlight, when the vehicle crew are using NVGs.  Using a flashlight would only blind them, and may cause the driver to run you over.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Jun 2015)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> Ground Guiding? I've got an old tankers manual at home that I can upload the hand signals out of. That's the only thing I can find.



Make sure it's not for Centurion. Pulling the right tiller bar in reverse would swing the ass end left


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## Thaddaeus (19 Jun 2015)

These are great. Thank you for posting these photos to the board. It clears up some confusion.


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## George Wallace (19 Jun 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Make sure it's not for Centurion. Pulling the right tiller bar in reverse would swing the ass end left



That brings up an important point:  MAKE SURE THAT YOUR GROUND GUIDE(S) KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.  Both the Driver and Ground Guides must understand what the signals mean and how to apply them.  If the Driver has any doubts, they are to STOP.

Unless absolutely necessary due to lack of personnel, it is advisable to have on Ground Guide in front and one in the rear.


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## Rheostatic (20 Jun 2015)

Thaddaeus said:
			
		

> Good day. I am new to my DND 404's. Was wondering if there was an offical guide out there somewhere that displays the standard hand-signals for backing up vehicles. I've been seeing a lot of variation in how people are doing it.


The attached is an excerpt from C-02-040-010/MB-001 _DRIVER’S POLICIES: RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR DRIVERS OF DND VEHICLES_, dated 2014-03-01.


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## George Wallace (20 Jun 2015)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> The attached is an excerpt from C-02-040-010/MB-001 _DRIVER’S POLICIES: RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR DRIVERS OF DND VEHICLES_, dated 2014-03-01.



And so the confusion has now made it into a manual.  (This happens when someone who was improperly taught something and takes it as the "Gospel" rises to a position where they can change manuals.)  (PS:  I witnessed this first hand when Instructing a FMC Dvr Crse and one of the Syndicate Instructors varied from the Lesson Plans and taught his whole syndicate incorrect and dangerous procedures, because that was how he was taught.  He would not change his mind.  Had he risen to a position where he may have changed the Lesson Plans, the end results would have perpetuated his incorrect teachings.)  In this case, please go back and see the similarity to the hand signal for a "PIVOT TURN".

Could you, as you have access, find the Rules and Regulations for operating of cranes and hoists and find us the hand signals for the guides assisting the crane or hoist operator?

I ask, as ARV operators have two sets of hand signals that they use: one to move the vehicle; and one for the movement of the crane.  The "Crossed Arms" is a hand signal for the boom operator to "stop" the boom.  Over time, people (mostly mechanics) have taken the hand signals for the boom and used them inter-mixed with vehicle hand signals.  This can cause confusion for an operator who may be operating both at the same time, as in the ARV crews, or a tank driver who may mistake it for a "Pivot Turn" or a "Neutral Turn".   Again an example where both the operator and the guides MUST all be "on the same Net" and know and understand what signals are being used.


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## chrisf (20 Jun 2015)

It really doesn't seem like it's worth the panty bunching.

There's a number of hand signs that overlap between crane signals and ground guiding signals...

The crossed arms signal for stop came into common use because, particularly at night, or when you're wearing camouflage clothing in the woods, there was a lack of clarity between stop, forward, and backward... 

If there's one sign you absolutely want clear, it's stop, there should be absolutely no ambiguity between stop and any other signal.

I don't have the military crane hand signs here, but if they're using normal crane hand signs, crossed arms doesn't mean a thing, the closest would be crossed palms with thumbs interlocked for "dog all" (stop for a crane actually looking very much like a chane direction left hand sign for ground guiding)

Meanwhile, far more important that getting upset over new manuals is the clarity of communication between driver and ground guide. If a signal is unclear, stop.

Ultimately it's the driver who's responsible for the vehicle


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## George Wallace (20 Jun 2015)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> If a signal is unclear, stop.
> 
> Ultimately it's the driver who's responsible for the vehicle



That is the very most important point, above all else.


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## RandyCrust (20 Jun 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That brings up an important point:  MAKE SURE THAT YOUR GROUND GUIDE(S) KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.  Both the Driver and Ground Guides must understand what the signals mean and how to apply them.  If the Driver has any doubts, they are to STOP.
> 
> Unless absolutely necessary due to lack of personnel, it is advisable to have on Ground Guide in front and one in the rear.


I agree completely also I would like to add, make sure you discuss the signals and what they are and appoint one of the ground guides to be incharge (if one of the ground guides is a WO its obviously him).  Also if you are in a truck OPEN your window,(I cannot shout through glass) and talk to the driver and when need shout WWT


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jun 2015)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> It really doesn't seem like it's worth the panty bunching.
> 
> There's a number of hand signs that overlap between crane signals and ground guiding signals...
> 
> ...



It's actually the guide that's responsible should something happen while the vehicle is being moved under his command.


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## chrisf (20 Jun 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's actually the guide that's responsible should something happen while the vehicle is being moved under his command.



Citation needed.

It's the driver with the foot on the gas or the brake, if they can't see, or if the signals are unclear, it's absolutely their responsibility to stop.


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## George Wallace (20 Jun 2015)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Citation needed.
> 
> It's the driver with the foot on the gas or the brake, if they can't see, or if the signals are unclear, it's absolutely their responsibility to stop.



Absolutely true, if the signals are unclear or they lose sight of the Ground Guide, it is the driver's responsibility to stop.

At the same time, if the Driver is paying close attention to the Ground Guide, keeping them in sight at all times, and the Ground Guide directs the Driver into/onto/or even off (think rail car, loading ramp or bridge) an object that the Driver can not see, it is the Ground Guide who is responsible.

Responsibility can go both ways, and an investigation would discover who is really at fault.  Any Regulation that specifically points to the Driver over the Ground Guide, or the Ground Guide over the Driver, as being solely responsible for any accident, is faulty.


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## mariomike (20 Jun 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Absolutely true, if the signals are unclear or they lose sight of the Ground Guide, it is the driver's responsibility to stop.
> 
> At the same time, if the Driver is paying close attention to the Ground Guide, keeping them in sight at all times, and the Ground Guide directs the Driver into/onto/or even off (think rail car, loading ramp or bridge) an object that the Driver can not see, it is the Ground Guide who is responsible.
> 
> Responsibility can go both ways, and an investigation would discover who is really at fault.  Any Regulation that specifically points to the Driver over the Ground Guide, or the Ground Guide over the Driver, as being solely responsible for any accident, is faulty.



As a former MSE-Op ( Reserve ), I find this an interesting discussion.

For what it is worth, I read this,

Driver Corner Part 1 
"Oh, and by the way, even if you, as the driver, hit something while backing up with the use of a ground guide...you are responsible!"
http://army.ca/forums/threads/51794/post-479430.html#msg479430


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## cupper (20 Jun 2015)

Regardless of all else, the driver needs to be aware of what is around him. That's why a walk around or circle check is a must before even getting into the vehicle. This would be the time to discuss the maneuver with the ground guides, including signals.


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## CountDC (22 Jun 2015)

Did a quick search online and the signal they show for crane stop is left arm straight out to the side with palms down.  Most reflect swinging back and forth also per attached.


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