# Similarities between Reserve Armour and MP



## lambeosaurus (14 May 2014)

Hi,
I am currently a trooper in a Pres Armour regiment. 
I will be taking a civilian course during two years in a remote area where there are only three option for me to get attached/transfer : Infantry, Nav Res or MP.
I would like a lot to be PID in the Nav Res, but school won't stop during the summer and spending two years as an untrained personnel would suck. 
So that leaves me with infantry and MP. My unit wants to send me to the infantry regiment, but I really don't feel like going infantry. I saw some pictures of reserve MP exercices where they used G-Wagons with C6 gunners. But beyond that, are there other similarities between Resarmour and ResMP ? Would you guys think I would be more employable in a MP unit rather than an Infantry on, considering the fact that I won't have time to get on trade courses ?
Thanks in advance for your opinions !


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## Dissident (14 May 2014)

You would have to do MPAC before coming over, and that can take a while. 

I love the PRes MPs, but in your case Infantry sounds like the only reasonable option.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 May 2014)

Could the OP be employed as a Driver if not as an Res MP?


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## Tibbson (14 May 2014)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> You would have to do MPAC before coming over, and that can take a while.
> 
> I love the PRes MPs, but in your case Infantry sounds like the only reasonable option.



PRes MP (land) do not need to do an MPAC.  Only badge carrying, correction, those that hope to be badge carrying, MP need to go through the MPAC process.


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## cupper (14 May 2014)

Go Infantry. 

You could have so much fun on exercise. 

On section attack when they go bang bang, you can go BOOM. 

And Militia Bullets bounce off your armour skin. 

And you can take off a boot and say you threw a track.

The fun is only limited by your imagination. >


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## RedcapCrusader (14 May 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> PRes MP (land) do not need to do an MPAC.  Only badge carrying, correction, those that hope to be badge carrying, MP need to go through the MPAC process.



Do you have evidence to support that claim? When I was sworn in (15 May 2013), I was required to attend MPAC regardless if I wanted to badge or not as I would still be in the MP branch.

Recruits that have signed on with our Platoon since then (latest being Feb 14) were also required.


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## Shamrock (15 May 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> PRes MP (land) do not need to do an MPAC.  Only badge carrying, correction, those that hope to be badge carrying, MP need to go through the MPAC process.



All MP hired after Apr 2012 require MPAC. In the case of PRes NCM, they can be hired and receive GS training; they must have MPAC to receive any MP-specific training or employment. Officers must finish MPOAC prior to enrolling.


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## brihard (15 May 2014)

lambeosaurus said:
			
		

> Hi,
> I am currently a trooper in a Pres Armour regiment.
> I will be taking a civilian course during two years in a remote area where there are only three option for me to get attached/transfer : Infantry, Nav Res or MP.
> I would like a lot to be PID in the Nav Res, but school won't stop during the summer and spending two years as an untrained personnel would suck.
> ...



I'd recommend the infantry option, personally. I am of course biased- but I think you would stand to take a lot more away from infantry that you could later carry back to your trade. Both are combat arms. Our reserve 'armoured' units are recce, and dismounted recce remains an important element of the reserve infantry skillset. If you return to armoured, you'll have made better use of your time.

Reserve units necessarily spend a lot of their training year covering off the basics. In the infantry, though, 'the basics' ARE the primary role of the trade. You will spend more time doing what it is that you primarily do in your trade. You'll improve your basic soldier skills and likely make yourself more of an asset to your current trade on return. If you don't return to it, then wherever life takes you is more likely to place you near an infantry unit than MP- you'll have easier transferability. And, unfortunately, reserve MP is another trade with a huge split from its reg force equivalent. Reserve MPs (with very few exceptions) do not do 'policing' as most of us would think of it. It's traffic control, convoy ops, and detainee / prisoner handling on top of IBTS. 

Sounds like there are more obstacles in the way of going MP as well. And, frankly, I think infantry is simply a lot more fun.  ;D

But do what feels right for *you*, and make the most of it.


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## Dissident (15 May 2014)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> All MP hired after Apr 2012 require MPAC. In the case of PRes NCM, they can be hired and receive GS training; they must have MPAC to receive any MP-specific training or employment. Officers must finish MPOAC prior to enrolling.



The direction that I have right now is that no member will be recruited/transfered into the platoon until they have successfully completed MPAC.


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## lambeosaurus (15 May 2014)

I didn't know about the MPAC. How long does it takes anyway to do it ? (did a quick search, and found only threads asking about content) If it's only a few days, it shouldn't be an issue. Truthfully, one of the reasons that MP interests me is that the civ course I'm taking is to become a wildlife protection officer , a peace officer. Having a little bit of experience working with MPs   regardless it is res or reg - they will most likely don't know the difference - , I believe will help to boost my resume. 

So I could go on Ex with the infantry even if I'm not qualified in their DP1...
The thing that bugs me with infantry, is that I'm a 5'4'' 130 pd woman. I struggled so much during my SQ's dismounted recce patrol  that I had to do with C9 and 40ish pounds of ammo through swamps and thick woods... If they currently asked me to ruckmarch with a C6, I'm sure I wouldn't manage to walk beyond 5 km. As you said Brihard, I would improve a lot more in Infantry if I plan to go back to Armour. But at this point, I am starting think that I may be not fit not just for infantry, but for combat arms, period.  I consider myself fit - I play Ice Hockey, real contact Football but I have to face the fact that my body is not big and strong enough. I think I could certainly manage it at Class A level, but I'd like to get a tour one day and I highly doubt my body could endure the beatings of combat arms during 6-8 months. 
I had already considered leaving Armour for less physically demanding trades like PID, MSE OP or Cook, but MP would be interesting as well as a long term reserve career, as it is somewhat similar to the civilian career I wish to pursue.


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## RedcapCrusader (15 May 2014)

lambeosaurus said:
			
		

> I didn't know about the MPAC. How long does it takes anyway to do it ? (did a quick search, and found only threads asking about content) If it's only a few days, it shouldn't be an issue. Truthfully, one of the reasons that MP interests me is that the civ course I'm taking is to become a wildlife protection officer , a peace officer. Having a little bit of experience working with MPs   regardless it is res or reg - they will most likely don't know the difference - , I believe will help to boost my resume.
> 
> So I could go on Ex with the infantry even if I'm not qualified in their DP1...
> The thing that bugs me with infantry, is that I'm a 5'4'' 130 pd woman. I struggled so much during my SQ's dismounted recce patrol  that I had to do with C9 and 40ish pounds of ammo through swamps and thick woods... If they currently asked me to ruckmarch with a C6, I'm sure I wouldn't manage to walk beyond 5 km. As you said Brihard, I would improve a lot more in Infantry if I plan to go back to Armour. But at this point, I am starting think that I may be not fit not just for infantry, but for combat arms, period.  I consider myself fit - I play Ice Hockey, real contact Football but I have to face the fact that my body is not big and strong enough. I think I could certainly manage it at Class A level, but I'd like to get a tour one day and I highly doubt my body could endure the beatings of combat arms during 6-8 months.
> I had already considered leaving Armour for less physically demanding trades like PID, MSE OP or Cook, but MP would be interesting as well as a long term reserve career, as it is somewhat similar to the civilian career I wish to pursue.



MPAC is 3 days; they'll fly you out to the CFB where it is hosted.


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## Dissident (15 May 2014)

The problem is not the length of the actual MPAC, the issue is how long will it take to get you on one (and then transferred).  The next scheduled MPAC is in Winnipeg in August, geared towards reservist applicants (and members who still need to go through.) If you miss that one it might be a year before you can get on another one...


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## lambeosaurus (15 May 2014)

Do you know the exact date in August ? Hope it is after the 11th, as I will be in Europe before that  :-X Anyhow I'll keep my fingers crossed and hurry up to send my memo.


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## garb811 (15 May 2014)

Are you planning to OT to MP or simply transfer to the Unit in your current MOC MOS for the duration of your schooling??

_Edit:  Whoops, showing my age again._


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## Fishbone Jones (16 May 2014)

Personally, I don't see why an MP unit could not employ an armoured recce trooper. It's not forever (two years) so they won't be keeping him anyway.

Many of the rear area security tasks are identical. Traffic control, check points, convoy escort and movement control.

A person does not need a badge for that.

The OP's best bet is to contact the MP unit he would like to join and ask them if he would be a viable addition to their unit, for two years, instead of listening to the stuff in this thread.

Not if he wants to remuster to MP;
Not if he can get an MPAC course; but,
Can the gaining unit effectively add to\ gain from his experience.

Stop saying he can't be, temporarily, employed because of this or that.

That's the kind of shit stovepipes and empires are made of.

Trades and units that think they are above everything the CAF stands for will be\ are the damnation and downfall of the CAF.


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## Dissident (16 May 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't see why an MP unit could not employ an armoured recce trooper. It's not forever (two years) so the won't be keeping him anyway.
> 
> Many of the rear area security tasks are identical. Traffic control, check points, convoy escort and movement control.
> 
> ...



That would only make sense. Maybe things are different in other units/regt. I came to the same conclusions as you did RG, a while ago, and asked the same questions. Shamrock is in a better position than I am to get the latest info, but last I was briefed it was as I have stated above. 

We are apparently eager to sign up anyone who is BMQ/BMQ-L (and up) qualified, but they can not parade until they have successfully completed MPAC.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 May 2014)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> That would only make sense. Maybe things are different in other units/regt. I came to the same conclusions as you did RG, a while ago, and asked the same questions. Shamrock is in a better position than I am to get the latest info, but last I was briefed it was as I have stated above.
> 
> We are apparently eager to sign up anyone who is BMQ/BMQ-L (and up) qualified, but they can not parade until they have successfully completed MPAC.



And that is your perfect example of stovepipes, empire building and elitist thinking that is killing opportunities for Reservists.

There is not a single Reservist MP group that I can think of that would not gain from the way Armoured Recce preforms their tasks.

Armoured Recce works far beyond where any MP unit would dare to tread, but the MPs are a closed shop. Content to stay cloistered, not learn anything new and be satisfied with outdated SOPs and doctrine.

MP units don't want anyone to come in and upset their apple cart. Typically, because they don't want army input. The higher ups, no matter what the boots on the ground think, believe they are not really military. They believe their job and that of their units is beyond and well above the simplicities of military protocols.

Basically, MPs are not military. They are a police force outside of the normal chain that believe they are the only ones that can keep the CAF in check.


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## Dissident (16 May 2014)

Aaaaaaand, here you go again, talking about things you know little about, about a trade you haven't seem to be able to understand. Don't mistake your bias and limited experience for the entirety of the trade. You, AGAIN, really need to STFU on this topic. You have a bone to pick and can't seem to let it go. Why do you have to bring this shit up again and again. 

I'm not saying you are entirely wrong, I have some of the same concerns, but you don't have a full picture and/or fail to take things into context.

I have asked you in the past to not bring this attitude to the MP sub forum, yet here we are again.

You really need to let it go.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 May 2014)

Then, maybe, you can explain to the rest of the CAF, where I'm wrong.

Special uniforms, special tasks. special..........

Answerable to nobody but your own individual command structure.

Tell me what I'm missing.

I don't know how long you've been around, but I've done this shit for over 37 years and I've watched the transition.

When was the last time you (the big you) signed a route, did traffic control on Ex or deployment or actually did something called rear area security.

The only thing people see nowadays is MPs dressed as pseudo cops giving people tickets.

It has been years, literally, since I've seen an MP detachment, on ex, with a doghouse on the back of their vehicle doing what a tactical MP unit is supposed to be doing in an unstable zone.

So, why is that?

Your obfuscation, misdirection and personal attacks do nothing to answer the questions or statements I've made.

Hence, your avoidance on specific points tend to make convinced that I'm right.

Of course the rest of the threads slamming MPs, appear to follow the same pattern.

Look, you like your trade, I get that. You're loyal to your trade, I get that too. There is nothing wrong with any of that.

However, when the Mandarins above give you bullshit policies to follow, is there not, at least, one person in your trade, that has the balls to say "Hold it. We're military first, police second?"

And that's the crux. MPs are not military anymore. You've (the collective) moved yourselves outside the sphere of the CAF and into a paramilitary police force that answers to no one.

Other than the crest you wear, nothing identifies you as military.

The last time most MPs were on a Brigade parade, they were doing traffic control so the marching troops wouldn't get hung up with traffic.

Feel free to call me out and prove to me that your Corps (not individuals or their detachments) have participated in real Ops, other than the guys we had in Afghanistan that only did prolonged, indecisive, and mostly useless investigations on accidents that happened with Canadian vehicles. Most, if not all, were determined no fault because there was no driving rules, signs, traffic lights, marked lanes (dependent on the time of day).

And we'll agree, you do Ops, but as per above, what do you really do but police soldiers that are living austere, trying to stay alive and live and work in a place that has no rules.

Except the chicken shit ones that MPs want to try enforce for their own ego.

Contrary to your assertion, I don't hate MPs, they have a job to do in the military, same as everyone else.

What I can't abide is the ones in your Corps, that believe they are above the military ethos and feel it's their responsibility to dictate what everyone should do.

You (collective) are not a stand alone police force, you belong to the CAF and contrary to what your top Watchdog believes, you are not a stand alone outside the CAF chain of command.

And that's the problem that you face and why you feel slighted and why you feel you need to defend what everyone else sees, with eyes wide open, what is wrong with the MP Corps.


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## JYPORT87 (16 May 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Then, maybe, you can explain to the rest of the CAF, where I'm wrong.
> 
> Special uniforms, special tasks. special..........
> 
> ...



Reserve MPs do zero police work. Wear cadpat just like everyone else. Spend the majority if not all their ex's in the field being miserable like everyone else. Reserve MPs are not police, have no police training and do not do police work.

Regular Force MP's are police officers, they don't do 6 months at the police academy to be stuck doing menial tasks in the field. If you don't like the scope of the Reg Force MPs then that is your problem due to you close-minded thinking. They wear different uniforms so they can be easily identified, by the public, CF members, their families and DND personnel. Each trade has it's own function, the Military Police are mandated to Police the Military.

As for your Afghanistan comment, search around, you'll see numerous MPs were involved in OTW operations in Afghanistan.

And FWIW if you're a reg force MP stuck on an army base, you still have to participate in field ex's on a yearly basis.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 May 2014)

JYPORT87 said:
			
		

> Reserve MPs do zero police work. Wear cadpat just like everyone else. Spend the majority if not all their ex's in the field being miserable like everyone else. Reserve MPs are not police, have no police training and do not do police work.
> 
> Regular Force MP's are police officers, they don't do 6 months at the police academy to be stuck doing menial tasks in the field. If you don't like the scope of the Reg Force MPs then that is your problem due to you close-minded thinking. They wear different uniforms so they can be easily identified, by the public, CF members, their families and DND personnel. Each trade has it's own function, the Military Police are mandated to Police the Military.
> 
> ...



Yup, still didn't answer my questions though, did you?


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## dan005e (16 May 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Feel free to call me out and prove to me that your Corps (not individuals or their detachments) have participated in real Ops, other than the guys we had in Afghanistan that only did prolonged, indecisive, and mostly useless investigations on accidents that happened with Canadian vehicles. Most, if not all, were determined no fault because there was no driving rules, signs, traffic lights, marked lanes (dependent on the time of day).
> 
> And we'll agree, you do Ops, but as per above, what do you really do but police soldiers that are living austere, trying to stay alive and live and work in a place that has no rules.
> 
> Except the chicken crap ones that MPs want to try enforce for their own ego.



Ok, sure I will call you on that. I've went to Kandahar twice, both times I saw and worked with MPs in the POMLT that were "living austere, trying to stay alive and live and work in a place that has no rules." Sitting back and disparaging the whole branches contributions to an operation, when members have fought there, suffered there, bled and died there is incredibly stupid.


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## Shamrock (16 May 2014)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> That would only make sense. Maybe things are different in other units/regt. I came to the same conclusions as you did RG, a while ago, and asked the same questions. Shamrock is in a better position than I am to get the latest info, but last I was briefed it was as I have stated above.
> 
> We are apparently eager to sign up anyone who is BMQ/BMQ-L (and up) qualified, but they can not parade until they have successfully completed MPAC.



MP BTS draw quite heavily upon armour TTP and GMR - tasks such as TCP, escorts, RAS, route recce, CBRN recce, &c.  We call them TACSEC tasks.  

It would be extremely beneficial to get MP on armour courses.  Getting them on them is a fight from both sides - armour, because our training resources are so scarce and we need to train our own troops; MP because the train to need hasn't been identified at the strategic level.  Remember the bun fight over the G-Wagen commanders somewhere on this forum before?  I've put forward similar recommendations as to Recceguy's - that each field MP Coy should have a CA officer as its Ops O.  This not only frees up the Coy Comd to provide provost support to the Brigade commander, it provides tactical expertise to their subordinate Platoons.  MP are such a small and specialized trade they can't achieve the diversity required to integrate well into the rest of the CF, so may as well bring the diversity to them.  

Recceguy, lead the change you espouse.  Grab some meatheads from your area and employ them as a driver in one of your troops for a weekend ex.  Create the avenue for that reciprocity.  Don't just sit there and beat your chest and point fingers.


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## Dissident (16 May 2014)

The armoured recce exchange has been discussed at the local level for some time. I have some good acquaintances at the BCR through my involvement shooting at the BCRA matches. 

I have asked for many things over the years because of my perception of a gap in our skills/knowledge. Last time we did winter warfare I asked for some infantry SME support, but was denied for whatever reason.

Can we split this thread already?


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## Tibbson (16 May 2014)

I've chosen to keep my mouth shut...until now.  Let me enlighten you on a few things (not that I think it will do any good)



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Then, maybe, you can explain to the rest of the CAF, where I'm wrong.
> 
> Special uniforms, special tasks. special..........
> 
> ...


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## PMedMoe (16 May 2014)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> Can we split this thread already?



 :ditto:


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## Fishbone Jones (19 May 2014)

Never mind. I was an ass upthread and I'll apologize to any and all that I offended.

I'll back out of the conversation and let things get back on track.

RG


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## lambeosaurus (12 Jun 2014)

Wow, I didn't except that thread to go wild.

So I sent my transfer request a few weeks ago. I asked about it, but they didn't have any news. 

They said it could take a long while. What bothered me is when I asked if I could parade at the MP unit as an attach-post until the transfer would be effective. They said they wouldn't let me, as they don't do attach-postings anymore bacause it wastes a position that could be filled by recruitement or whatever. I would need to ask for a leave until then.

I've never heard of such thing before. At my current unit, there are a few guys attached-posted from other regiments. Yes they are armour, but still  :-\


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## George Wallace (12 Jun 2014)

lambeosaurus said:
			
		

> Wow, I didn't except that thread to go wild.
> 
> So I sent my transfer request a few weeks ago. I asked about it, but they didn't have any news.
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear this news.  It boils down to one thing, unless things have changed in the last little while; "laziness".  If you are permitted to parade with another unit, you sign a separate pay sheet which is then sent to your parent unit (as you still belong to them) for finalization and entry into the system so you can be paid.  You would not be taking up any position at the MP unit other than the chair you would be sitting in.  Their only responsibility would be to forward your pay sheets to your Armour unit so you can receive pay due you.  

Of course all this requires "Administration".  Both your Armour unit and the MP unit CO's have to agree to let you parade at the MP location.  The MP OR would have to set up a separate pay sheet for you and mail/fax it to your Armour unit to be entered into the Pay System.  Until such time as your documentation for a transfer to the MP Trade was finalized and you became a member of the MP unit, you would not be filling any position on their Nominal Roll.  If they are worried about spots being taken away from their Recruiting, you would not be taking a spot away from their "Recruiting Off the Street", but fall into another category altogether.  

"Laziness" is the only word to describe this situation.  Laziness and lack of knowledge on these matters on the part of the OR, Recruiter, and CO of the MP unit.


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## Dissident (12 Jun 2014)

Maybe the recruiter has the wrong info, or just passed on an easy explanation to dismiss lambeosaurus.

Through my CoC my unit has said that we will not take on people on "attach posting". I would not call this lazy or ignorant, not when you consider the outcome if said attached member fails the MPAC. What happens to the poor troop who has to come "home" after being dropped from the MPs because they failed MPAC?

Don't get me wrong, I met some people who would have been a nice fit at the platoon and that I would have loved to have on hand before they did MPAC. We've aloso put a lot of effort and time into some troops, only to have to tell them to go somewhere else. It is heartbreaking.


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## Poppa (12 Jun 2014)

I know Garb asked this a while back but does the OP want to OT to MP?
If not, I honestly can't see a reason why they cannot be att posted. No intent to transfer...not costing anything just an extra troop to do stuff and come away with a positive outlook on MP (hopefully). This is something that I'd personally have no issue with. In fact we've had non MP att posted to a Pl here in ON for the past few months in a command postion because there wasn't any MPO avail in the area to be a Pl Comd. This is something I'd run up to LF MP Gp or CA MP Gp or whatever they're calling themsleves these days and ask.
My  :2c:


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## lambeosaurus (13 Jun 2014)

I don't really want to transfer MP. 
I said in my memo that I wished to be attached for the time I need to live in the area where there is only a MP and infantry unit. 
I wrote that I would like to transfer only if an attached post wouldn't be possible.

I have not been clear, it is not the MP unit that doesn't want me to get attached, it is my home unit that doesn't want because I would waste a position at their place. I'm very disapointed, I was looking forward to go on fall exercices with the MPs. 

Maybe it is just laziness or something fishy is going on.


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