# Another example of the CF screwing you



## jmackenzie_15 (27 Jan 2005)

No doubt this has happened to many others in the past...... ever rely on a paycheck at the end of the month to be able to pay your bills but the clerks or whover F something up, and you end up not getting paid untill at least a month later. I love it when that happens.

Felt the need to vent, im awfully pissed.I guess now ill go pull some money off of the trees to cover my 500 dollar oil bill, after all, its only winter time.

 :threat:


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## Big Foot (27 Jan 2005)

Never quite had that happen but they always do seem to take deductions at the worst possible time, eg: right after Christmas


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## Sh0rtbUs (27 Jan 2005)

A guy on our BMQ didnt see a cent until we were on our DP1 and he recieved a cheque. I believe it was in part his fault for now hassling the pay clerk, but nonetheless...it isnt really his job.


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## Scott (27 Jan 2005)

I knew a guy who went 12 weeks before being paid (All the way through QL2, leave and into QL3)

Arguing pay in the NSH will get you nowhere, been there, done it, banged head on wall and wished it was someone else's.


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## jmackenzie_15 (27 Jan 2005)

I'm going to send a letter up the chain of command to somebody demanding the damn clerks do their _____ job or im switching units.The end.What are they going to do, fire me so i'll be forced to get a job that PAYS you?


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## Da_man (27 Jan 2005)

When i got my pay last month, i should have gotten $150 instead i got $30 because of "mess dues".     Now thats a fucking rip off.   

Hell 2 full days for $30... might as well work for free


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## bobbyf (27 Jan 2005)

hey guys...
i had an occasion once where they took approx $600 off a single pay cheque...at least for Reg Force guys, a quick visit to the OR should get things sorted out...I had a cheque cut to me within 48 hours and then had the $$ deducted @ $50/pay till recovered.....


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## Scott (27 Jan 2005)

Heed my advice jmackenzie_15, be careful...


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## jmackenzie_15 (28 Jan 2005)

well scott, i WOULD go reg force, but that that would take administration, and I dont think ill be ready to trasnfer to the regs by the time im 50, so im not going to bother.
*Nukes truro offices*


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## George Wallace (28 Jan 2005)

When I joined the Reserves in 1970 we got paid twice a year.  What are you all complaining about?

GW


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## jmackenzie_15 (28 Jan 2005)

in 1970 you could go to the theatre get a bag of pop corn a chocholate bar for a quarter.


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## George Wallace (28 Jan 2005)

So you remember those days too, do ya?


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## bobbyf (28 Jan 2005)

again, i'm not an expert re:Reservists, however.......if a pay issue (deduction, error) is causing you financial hardship (legitimate hardship vs lack of pocket $$), address this with your CoC....any officer worth his salt will "lead the charge" to fight the bureaucracy and ensure the welfare of his/her troops!!!


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## jmackenzie_15 (28 Jan 2005)

I guess you arent an expert on reservists, because that has never/will never happen.Our CO would simply tell us "the clerks do the best they can" and to "tough it out".

Yeah, tough it out Mr.Hardcore Captain CO, who on the winter warfare weekend just passed, slept in his parents house while we were camping in the arctic tents.


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Jan 2005)

mackenzie, quit your whining.  Most reserve units stand down in early December and only start parading again in early January.  Guess what?  Pay doesn't get processed in that period.  I was expecting 400 bucks this pay but got 55.  I am still owed for parade dates in early January.  C'est la vie.

The Militia is a hobby for some, part time job for most.  If you're relying on it as a regular source of income, then you are screwing yourself, don't blame the Army.


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## George Wallace (28 Jan 2005)

Have you got it off your chest Yet?   Don't worry about the heat.....your room must be pretty hot right now......If you keep that attitude up much longer your officers, your Snr NCO's, your Clerks and probably a lot of your friends will tell you where to go and you really won't like that much more.

Grab a cool one and step back from the keyboard.

GW


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## winchable (28 Jan 2005)

Do not argue with clerks, not only is their job a tedious one, but they have eery powers.
I got in an argument with one today over my release..heed my example.
2 days ago, they told me it would all be sorted out by today.I was hassled by a clerk today, she was dead serious too: "Couldn't hack it eh?"   (thinking, pfft. I'm about to be released, do I really need to take this?)..message on the phone when I get home:"Looks like your release is going to take a bit longer, we need to do some more paperwork, sorry about the mixup.
Not whining in the slightest, as I said it's my release so they can take as long as they want.
Meant as a humoros anecdote.

As Michael points out, in many cases it's systemic not individual so before we lose it here, eveeeryone take a step back.
It's tempting to blame the person who's right infront of you (A LA angry customer at mcdonalds) but it's rarely their fault.

*Che skitters off into the shadows*


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## bobbyf (28 Jan 2005)

if this is the attitude of the Reverse Officers you deal with, and the behavior you describe of your OC is as stated, i apologize, as an officer, for your being   "led"  in this fashion........

if the welfare of troops isnt a consideration for officers in the Reserve, i can understand some of the "frustration" i've picked up on over viewing these boards for a while....

hang in.....


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## HollywoodHitman (28 Jan 2005)

Overall I'd say the thing that pisses me off most about dealing with clerks, is that many NOT ALL, make it seem like they're doing you a favor, by doing their jobs. There was one guy who used to tell me I was lucky I was getting anything.........

If they didn't have those eerie powers, I'd have reacted in a less than gentlemanly fashion...........


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## jmackenzie_15 (28 Jan 2005)

I can agree with that HH.... one guy tried forever to get into regs , excellent soldier, eventually he quit entirely to be a cop..... after almost 3 and a half years of waiting and multiple screw jobs... the clerks all seemed like they were helping him out if they had time or something, like, its your job in the first place to do this.Taking anything less than a "I'll get right on this immediately" approach, is unnacceptable.What would happen if i told my section commander that "I GUESS I could do a section attack on those guys, that is if i have time when im done of my coffee, but remember who did it for you."


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Jan 2005)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Overall I'd say the thing that pisses me off most about dealing with clerks, is that many NOT ALL, make it seem like they're doing you a favor, by doing their jobs. There was one guy who used to tell me I was lucky I was getting anything.........
> 
> If they didn't have those eerie powers, I'd have reacted in a less than gentlemanly fashion...........



This is all true.  Of course, it only takes one dickhead "customer" to ruin it for everyone else.  We had had knob that used to come up to the fin counter in our unit on a weekly basis demanding his printed out pay statement.  He didn't get abusive about it, just asked for one EVERY WEEK.  At that time, they weren't printed regularly, and when they were provided, we distributed them.  He didn't think he was getting it often enough.  I think at that time, this was an "extra" report aside from the paystub information you got with the physical cheque itself - and as such was considered optional.  My senior NCO in the office actually advised me to pitch the statements, if i recall correctly, because the pay stub was the "official" document.  the pay statements had more info on them, however, so we distributed them.  This was in the days before RPSR (RADTs anyone?  ) and before direct deposit.

I think after hearing this dude complain each week about his missing statements, we just chucked everything on sight - so he pretty much screwed the rest of the unit.  It became a hassle pleasing one individual, so we stopped pleasing everyone in that regard.  All perfectly on the up and up as far as regs go.

As Che suggests, very often much is out of the hands of the clerks to begin with.  You get hardened to it, and perhaps that isn't right, but you don't fall over yourself giving out a bunch of "oh I'm so sorry"s mostly cause most of the time it isn't your fault and the guy who is to blame, you've never met or probably don't even know who it is.

As for January pay, as I've stated, the reserve world shuts down for most of December - now you'll know for next year not to expect a big mid-month or even end-month cheque in January.


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## Glorified Ape (28 Jan 2005)

I had pay problems during IAP and I got ulllllllllltra pissed. I mean irate, apoplectic. But who am I going to get mad at? We all just bitched to each other and that made us feel a bit better. Luckily, we had an amazing Sgt. - former combat engineer, now in logistics - who had no compunctions about jacking the crap out of the pay clerks. This guy was, quite possibly, one of the coolest people I ever had the privilege of knowing - I kid you not, he got just as angry (fuming, steamingly, frighteningly angry) as we did when our pay got messed up. This guy embodied more OLQ's and leadership principles than our entire platoon likely ever will. Having a leader like that, who actually cared about his subordinates that much that he got that pissed and pro-active was amazing. I'm not sure we could have had a better example for leadership than that sgt. 

And the coolest thing was, when he wasn't fuming mad about our messed up pay, he had the best sense of humour and positive attitude you could hope for. I miss my sgt lol.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jan 2005)

Why is it that when the Combat Arms make the slightest mistake, we're lucky if we don't end up in Service Detention Barracks. However, a clerk can constantly f**k up a Battalions worth of pay and records monthly, take weeks to sort it, pass it to someone else that's supposed to know what they're doing, and it's still screwed up? Pass it to the higher and they say "WTF? Why is this my problem? Talk to your Ajdt. They don't even get (PC here) counselled. They should be charged and fired!

On the same note, I got a ream of paperwork from the CR Clerk tonight. PEN Form, SISIP Form, Security Clearance Form, etc. "Please fill these out for my records". These are all on my file. If you want them for your records, find them yourself. Don't make me fill them out again for your convenience, PRIVATE. (actually an Able Seaman Reservist, Cl B with an Army Reserve Unit. What's up with that. We have Army Clerks here that know what's what, but can't get hired. (Not cute enough I guess   : )


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## jmackenzie_15 (28 Jan 2005)

Why is it that when the Combat Arms make the slightest mistake, we're lucky if we don't end up in Service Detention Barracks. However, a clerk can constantly f**k up a Battalions worth of pay and records monthly, take weeks to sort it, pass it to someone else that's supposed to know what they're doing, and it's still screwed up? Pass it to the higher and they say "WTF? Why is this my problem? Talk to your Ajdt. They don't even get (PC here) counselled. They should be charged and fired!

Amen to that!


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## Stefan Moxness (28 Jan 2005)

it seems to me this "I'm doing you a favour" attitude is, for the most part, SOP for most clerks at any job that has anything (even vague) attachment to the government.  What is it with the relationship to the government that makes clerks hate their jobs so much that they won't either just get up and leave for something they enjoy or do their damn job right.  wouldn't that make everyone happier anyway? I mean, the clerk wouldn't have so and so fuming at him and so and so wouldn't even need to be fuming at him because the guy had done his job right!  My 0.02 cents anyway, I've always had a "soft" spot for getting angry about people who willingly take a job and won't do the damn thing right.

Be safe


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jan 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> This is all true. Of course, it only takes one dickhead "customer" to ruin it for everyone else. We had had knob that used to come up to the fin counter in our unit on a weekly basis demanding his printed out pay statement. He didn't get abusive about it, just asked for one EVERY WEEK. At that time, they weren't printed regularly, and when they were provided, we distributed them. He didn't think he was getting it often enough. I think at that time, this was an "extra" report aside from the paystub information you got with the physical cheque itself - and as such was considered optional. My senior NCO in the office actually advised me to pitch the statements, if i recall correctly, because the pay stub was the "official" document. the pay statements had more info on them, however, so we distributed them. This was in the days before RPSR (RADTs anyone?  ) and before direct deposit.
> 
> I think after hearing this dude complain each week about his missing statements, we just chucked everything on sight - so he pretty much screwed the rest of the unit. It became a hassle pleasing one individual, so we stopped pleasing everyone in that regard. All perfectly on the up and up as far as regs go.
> 
> ...



There was a time when at the beginning of the year I could ask for   X% to be taken from my pay to cover my taxes, while on Cl A. Now they want me to determine monthly how much I'll make and the taxes to be deducted. If I knew how many days a month, and that year, I'd be working, great, but in the Reserves, that's not an option. The only true way to determine your taxes, and retroactivley I might add, is to ask for a pay statement weekly and have the pay system adjust your taxes on a monthly basis based on the previous month. The fellow your ragging on for screwing everyone, was only being prudent and following the phsycotic and archaic rule laid down by the Treasury Board. Don't blame him if your job got harder because of the anal retentive bean counters in Ottawa and the Puzzle Palace. The problem is, we have to many civies working in the military. Things were fine twenty years ago till we put the Public Service to work for us.

Now, you think your pay is bad now? They're (Public Service Union) is trying to take control of the CF pension. Your really gonna get f**ked when (not if) that happens.

And it's the Clerk's job to support the Unit he's working with and the soldiers therein, not he other way around. Every trade in the military, exists for one reason. To support the Combat Arms. Without the Combat Arms there would be NO military.


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## DAA (28 Jan 2005)

Now here is a true story!

Our unit was on exercise in Wainwright years ago.  The Camp RSM points out the area that he wants my OR Tent to be set up and tells me that a truck with 2 sections of modular will be around shortly.  A clerk from another Sqn was assigned an area about 30 metres away.  The truck pulls up and drops 2 sects of complete mod at his feet, then jump back on the truck and come my way.  The boys dump 2 sects complete for me and then dismount and ask where I want it set up.  I point to the area and tell them, not a problem I can do it myself, but they refuse and set everything up for me.

Mean while the other clerk comes over and tells the guys that once they are done with mine, they can come back and do his too!

Needless to say, once they were done, they jumped on the truck and drove off, leaving the other clerk to his own demise.

So in short, you could tell who did there job in making sure the troops were looked after while asking for nothing in return and who didn't!

Oh and by the way, if you have access to the DIN (which I don't) there is a document relating to CF Service Standards for Administrative Support, which actually provides "guidelines" for response times.  Also if you walk away from your OR pissed off, that's a good indication that your people aren't doing their jobs.


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## chrisf (28 Jan 2005)

Jmackenzie...

Have you tried going to the OR, asking (Politely, as remember, you're a private) why you weren't paid, and explaining that you have bills that need to be paid, and asking if it's possible to have a cheque issued for the amount of said bills to cover you until pay day?


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Jan 2005)

recce - the clerks also have to pay an amount each month on their taxes, not a percent.  It's a huge inconvenience for all concerned and makes no sense.  I reset my taxes to zero because I can't estimate what I'll make from month to month - and hopefully it all comes out alright in April.  I'll probably have to pay about 1000 bucks.


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Jan 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> I had pay problems during IAP and I got ulllllllllltra pissed. I mean irate, apoplectic. But who am I going to get mad at? We all just bitched to each other and that made us feel a bit better. Luckily, we had an amazing Sgt. - former combat engineer, now in logistics - who had no compunctions about jacking the crap out of the pay clerks. This guy was, quite possibly, one of the coolest people I ever had the privilege of knowing - I kid you not, he got just as angry *(fuming, steamingly, frighteningly angry) *as we did when our pay got messed up. This guy embodied more OLQ's and leadership principles than our entire platoon likely ever will. Having a leader like that, who actually cared about his subordinates that much that he got that pissed and pro-active was amazing. I'm not sure we could have had a better example for leadership than that sgt.
> 
> And the coolest thing was, when he wasn't fuming mad about our messed up pay, he had the best sense of humour and positive attitude you could hope for. I miss my sgt lol.



The truly funny thing is that you honestly thought the sergeant was accomplishing anything he wouldn't have by acting like a normal human being.  I suggest you do a search of this forum for "leadership" and see some of the earlier discussion as to why this approach is counter-productive.

From what you've said, he hasn't embodied a single "leadership principle".  Caring for your men is one thing, acting like a jackass is quite another.  I can guarantee you that as much as you think he accomplished with that approach in some regards, in others he probably screwed himself and a number of his troops.  **shrugs**


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## ackland (28 Jan 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> From what you've said, he hasn't embodied a single "leadership principle". Caring for your men is one thing, acting like a jackass is quite another. I can guarantee you that as much as you think he accomplished with that approach in some regards, in others he probably screwed himself and a number of his troops. **shrugs**



Micheal I agree totally. Yelling and screaming is not one of the Ten Princeples of Leadership that I've seen. Being  A Senior NCO Myself I would question the need to go screaming about it.


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## chrisf (28 Jan 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> And it's the Clerk's job to support the Unit he's working with and the soldiers therein, not he other way around. Every trade in the military, exists for one reason. To support the Combat Arms. Without the Combat Arms there would be NO military.



Of course, without support trades, the then combat arms couldn't function... we've all got one huge co-dependcy complex.


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## Britney Spears (28 Jan 2005)

> Of course, without support trades, the then combat arms couldn't function... we've all got one huge co-dependcy complex.



We get paranoid when you guys outnumber us by so much.


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## Danjanou (28 Jan 2005)

Ok I see both sides of this issue. Not all clerks are incompetent and or trying to screw over the poor troopies. Some really give a crap and work to get the job done. Bithcing and moaning at them is at best counter productive. 

Then again one thing you shouldn't do is screw over a soldiers pay. As Michael said if there were"legitimate" reasons for a delay or error then that should have been made clear. Something tells me that if there was an issue with my pay or other admin and Cpl Dorosh was my Coy Clerk, not only would he be working to rectify it, but he's be straight with me as to what was going on.

As for officers not caring about their troops welfare, well forget charging the clerk, this guy should be in Edmonton with very own set of mess tins to play with.

I dragged this out of the archives here re pay issues:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/1377/post-15952.html#msg15952

(qouted here for those not inclined to use the linky thingy)


_Ok let me get this straight. You and others on your course haven't been paid and some idiot has given you a pile of bovine excrement that it has to do with not having blood types? 

Please is there some Snr NCO or Officer involved with this course lurking on the forum who has seen this, and is now having a â Å“chatâ ? with whatever numpty pulled this stunt. 

As Dara, RCA and others have said there is a system, sure it is often slow and inefficient but it should work and this is one thing one does not screw around with. Start using the chain of command to have this dealt with, now. 

Ok war story time, so bear with me here. About 12-13 or so years ago there was a similar incident in a certain Toronto unit (no names no pack drill) They didn't have a Fin Clk, but the ad hoc system of admin clerks and what not somehow made it work. Then they got a shiny new Fin Officer trained and everything that transferred in. Well all of a sudden pay came to a screaching halt. 

Now that's not a big thing for those with civy careers hey it's just beer money in the mess. But a lot of Militia, students and the like, need that cheque, and can't afford any delays. Now this particular officer and I'm not dissing females, officers, or fin types here, had a bit of an attitude. To her Reserve duty was more of a social thing. She didn't need her monthly cheque and couldn't really comprehend the fact others did. 

Anyway, an unnamed CSM was advised that several of his troops hadn't been paid and in a couple of cases for some time, (1-2 months, said CSM had been away for a month on pers leave). He paid a social visit to the Finance Office and politely enquired as to what the problem was. 

When he got a rather dismissive answer from a rather insincere 2/Lt, he politely enquired as to why prior to her arrival there didn't seem to be any pay problems.

The Fin Officer in question pointed out that the adhoc system the semi-trained clerks had been using was not the correct manner to do things and she had put a stop to it. As to delays in the poor (literally) soldiers pay, there was nothing, she or for that matter the CSM could do about it.

The CSM, smiled, saluted and returned to his hovel, er office and made a couple of phone calls. Then he had a wee chat with his OC and the RSM, they in turn had a wee chat with the CO. The CO was advised that the CSM had checked into things and the said unpaid soldiers, there were about a dozen, including one just recently back from a peacekeeping tour, had an appointment at a local City of Toronto Welfare office the next morning. 

It appears that they may be eligible for welfare pending pay under Ontario law. Interviews had been set up and they would of course need to show up in uniform with supporting documentation. It also appeared that someone may have (not the CSM of course) called CITY TV and the Toronto Sun who in turn may have been interested in events happening the next morning. 

Well the upshot is that the CO had another wee chat with his Fin Officer, and mysteriously some cheques were sent via courier to the armouries rather quickly. 

Drastic measures perhaps, but effective. The moral of the story never mess with a soldier's pay and never play poker with a CSM._


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## JAFMA (28 Jan 2005)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> A guy on our BMQ didn't see a cent until we were on our DP1 and he received a cheque. I believe it was in part his fault for now hassling the pay clerk, but nonetheless...it isn't really his job.



Now that is a load of BS. You as a serving member whether it be regular force or reserve, whether you are a lowly private soldier or the friggin CDS are responsible for you pay and what happens to it. So don't give me this s--t that it isn't really my job, because it is your job. You sure would be hollering when they deduct monies from you now wouldn't you.  It's your mony make sure you get it and make sure it is the right amount.

By the way this come from a guy with a fair amount of TI, Pictures and T-Shirts.


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## George Wallace (28 Jan 2005)

Too much information......my head is going to explode.

It is really fine for a Senior Serving Member to spew things.  I had that on Tour when RecceGuy and I were reminiscing of our past ups and downs and a Snr NCO stuck his nose into a calm conversation of our past trials and tribulations and condemned us of whining.  Low and behold, the tables turned and that Snr NCO nearly had an aneurysm and nervous breakdown and multiplying what he accused us of by 100 went off on a rampage through our Camp in Bosnia.  

Shit happens administration wise and the Soldier does not always catch it at the time.  I have experience two major Pay Problems in my over 25 years of service.  I am a Crewman, not a clerk.  I expect to have a clerk do their job competently and know what they are doing.  I do not expect that I am supposed to know their job too, which is what you JAFMA just layed into a new CF Member and told them to do.

I remember having to tell a Sgt (Navy) weekly something new that he had to do with my Movement Claim from Kingston to Pet.  I had to bring in my Mortgage so that the AJAG could parouse it to see if I was entitled to a claim for breaking it.  A week later, that Navy clerk told me I was not entitled to the claim as it was not in my mortgage.  I opened my mortgage and pointed to paragraph 2 on page two and said that that was what was stated there.  His response: "Oh! We didn't see that."  As a Crewman, I had more clues of what his job was than he did.  It took over a month to finalize that claim, after weekly problem solving on my part, and the good guidance of a Posting Package from CFB Kingston that layed out in laymans terms all my rights and entitlements.  By the way, one month later that Navy clerk was shown in the Petawawa Post receiving his crown.

Administrative problems do occur.  If we were all clerks and not some other trade, I suppose there would be a lot less of them, but we aren't.  Don't rag on a young, or even old, soldier about it being their duty to watch their Pay and Administrative files.  Yes, they should, but again problems do happen while they are not looking.

GW


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## Glorified Ape (28 Jan 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The truly funny thing is that you honestly thought the sergeant was accomplishing anything he wouldn't have by acting like a normal human being.   I suggest you do a search of this forum for "leadership" and see some of the earlier discussion as to why this approach is counter-productive.



Where did he not act like a normal human being? The man didn't throw temper trantrums, stomp his feet, and throw things if that's what you take to characterize an extremely angry person. He was professional, through and through, and when he got angry he didn't get stupid, he got active - he took corrective measures, as he should. 



> From what you've said, he hasn't embodied a single "leadership principle".   Caring for your men is one thing, acting like a jackass is quite another.   I can guarantee you that as much as you think he accomplished with that approach in some regards, in others he probably screwed himself and a number of his troops.   **shrugs**



As I said, he didn't "act like a jackass". You could tell he was fuming mad but he conducted himself appropriately with us (I can't say what he did in the office but I don't imagine he started throwing paperclips at peope). I can tell you this much: when one of us had a pay problem and he found out, that person didn't have a pay problem anymore... or at least not until we weren't under his command anymore. 

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread and I have an on-topic question:

I was told by one NCO that it's common not to receive the exact, proper amount of pay on every paycheque. One cheque you'll receive 1/4 of the proper pay, the next you'll receive 3x the proper amount - in the end it all evens out but you shouldn't expect a precise cheque very often. Is this true? I haven't had any real pay problems since September when I got back to Montreal (aside from snail-slow reimbursements) but maybe it's because I'm not in a battalion or the ROTP pay system just works better - I don't know. Thanks for the help.


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## shadow (28 Jan 2005)

One thing to remember:  dealing with departments in the CF (whether it be clerks, medics, supply techs...etc) is not the same as if you were dealing with a teller at a bank or a CSR at McDonalds.  We all work together, and our jobs are all intertwined.  These are not people who will never see you again after your one encounter.  10 years down the road you may discover that you are working together again.
It's more of a mutual relationship, and I can pretty much guarantee that if you deal with your unit clerks in a professional manner, any problems will be dealt with faster, and one day when you need something else done administratively, they will provide!


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## bobbyf (29 Jan 2005)

i have tyo chime in again........sorry 

if a soldier has a problem, and they ask a clerk about it and are not satisfied, the troop should see ONE option......

Chain of Command!

although to often the CoC is only involved when there is s*** to be distributed, any worthy officer MUST saegaurd the welfare of his troops!!!!!!!

my $0.02 worth.......

.......damn, can't honour that as my pay is short AGAIN!!......... 8)


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## DAA (30 Jan 2005)

Chain of Command is fine, but it doesn't necessarily work to the members benefit in some cases.  For example Pte Jones has a pay problem and sees his/her clerk.  Pte Jones is not satisfied so complains to his Sgt/WO who complains to the Tp Ldr who complains to the Adm O, who writes a nasty letter to the PAO.  Now as you can see, the story line has just passed through 3 hands and probably as many if not more days have passed.  Hence, by the time it reaches the pay office it is not always 100% accurate and most of the time it is not what the Pte wanted in the first place.  What it does do, is get the attention of the snr pay staff.

As a former NCO IC Pay Office, I much preferred for Pte Jones' Sgt to call me and then the 2 of them come over for a sit down and sort things out then and there.  Which is not too unreasonable to ask from your Snr Pay Clerk.

Besides, in my experience, 50% of the time when someone is so pissed off about their pay, it seems to affect their hearing.

My staff on occasion used to comment "I can't believe you sat and listened to that guy complain for nearly 30 minutes! I would have gotten up and walked away!"  Well I will tell you that 30 minutes explaining something to someone, is much better that spending 10 minutes with someone 3 times a week for the next 4 weeks.  Besides, by the time we were done, everything was sorted out and he was just another happy soldier and one less return customer to worry about.

If the clerks aren't willing to put in the effort, they are just creating more work for themselves!


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## 043 (30 Jan 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> mackenzie, quit your whining.   Most reserve units stand down in early December and only start parading again in early January.   Guess what?   Pay doesn't get processed in that period.   I was expecting 400 bucks this pay but got 55.   I am still owed for parade dates in early January.   C'est la vie.
> 
> The Militia is a hobby for some, part time job for most.   If you're relying on it as a regular source of income, then you are screwing yourself, don't blame the Army.



Very well said Michael! And like I always say........and I do mean it.....if you don't like it here, take it somewhere else. That is the huggy feely version of it anyways!


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## someguyincanada (30 Jan 2005)

i remember a mcpl and a captain whose names were exactly the same, only difference was one number off in the s/n.


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## Chief Clerk (9 Feb 2005)

I take it this has to do with Reserve Pay? I am a Reg F Chief Clerk and I have also served as Reg F with a Res Unit.  Not really impressed with how pay is "done" in a Reserve Unit - Have no problems with how its done in a Reg F Unit.  Bottom line is start with your Chief Clerk vice the counter clerk,  and if this person cannot give you a reason as to why your pay is screwed up, take it to the next level (Adjt, Adm O, Reg Force Officer in your unit).  If a clerk is "actually" screwing you over find a way to get this person CHARGED as this person is abusing the little power he or she has over other pers. Finally if nobody gives a crap - CFAOs give you the right to ask for a personal interview with your Commanding Officer whom I am sure would be REALLY impressed with the clerical staff!  Its too bad when you cannot get results from your OR staff - as from day one our only purpose is to Serve the Forces - you the customer!  If we cant do that to the best of our abilities than we should GET THE HELL OUT of the RMS Trade and find employment elsewhere.


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## Danjanou (10 Feb 2005)

Well said Chief Clerk. 

There's also plan B. Threaten to hold a FIBUA/MOUT/FISH live fire ex in the Fin Office 8)


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## Dara (10 Feb 2005)

Good day all, RMS Clk here.  Several poiints, there's a production schedule from RPSR that tells us when Class A cutoffs are, that means the sign in sheets need to be in not the day off the cutoff, but a couple of days before hand, especially if we're talking about 50 sign in sheets to be entered,  usually there is some leeway, RPSR will continue to accept after the cutoff, but do not count on this.  This doesn't take into account the process of getting the supervisor signature on your sign in sheet before coming up to the OR.  There are also Class B cutoffs too, but this should never effect you, a pay contingency can be done, and if cutoff dates were missed for this, you can get a local payment.  If there is a personal problem where you need your class A money, you can explain via memo up your chain to your CO (at least that's what done at my unit) and a pay contingency can be done based on the days you had signed in and won't be getting until the next pay period, you have to at least worked the days to get an advance on your pay, remembering that RPSR is two weeks in arrears.  I would need to know more specifics for individual problems of why your not getting paid.  If anybody has any specific questions, just ask, maybe I can help.


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## Roy Harding (15 Mar 2005)

Gentlemen:

After 3 years Infantry (Reg Force)  (I know - it's not in my profile), and 22 years Adm/RMS (Reg Force) experience, let me sort a couple of things out for you.

1.  I don't care what your trade is - we're all on the same team.  Treat each other that way, instead of as opposing players, and the result will be team work - and probably problem solved.

2.  Although many junior clerks THINK and ACT like they have magnificent and mysterious powers, they don't.  This is an attitude which clears up with maturity and experience, but I understand the perception left with young inexperienced Cbt Arms soldiers.

3.  Although I only spent one year in RSS, back in '89-'90 I do recall that the SYSTEM was absolutely appalling.  This resulted in the young reserve pay clerks working extremely hard and conscientiously, full of desire to make the system work properly, but when the SYSTEM (not the CLERK) inevitably screwed up, the Clks ended up feeling the pressure from their peers, feeling the pressure from their superiors (including me, until I became the "Pay Clerk" for a month), feeling the pressure from the Chain of Command, and eventually "giving up".  "Giving up" took many forms, but the two most common were to either quit the Reserves, or become the snarling, defensive, abrasive type of individual mentioned in previous posts in this thread.  This problem was less prevalent in the Reg force, because although the system was archaic, it actually WORKED, and when it on rare occasions DIDN'T, there were capable and experienced WOs and Offrs who could quickly fix it.  This dynamic does not apply in the reserves - although the trade knowledge and skills of the WOs and Offrs may be of the highest standard, they simply do not have the TIME to fix these things on a Wednesday night, or Saturday!!

4.  Never forget, as has been mentioned previously, that the welfare of the troops is a Chain of Command responsibility - NOT/NOT a clerical responsibility!  Clks can certainly HELP the chain of command with this, but they are not responsible for YOUR welfare.

5.  We in the Adm/Fin/RMS world made a terrible mistake a few years ago.  We assumed that because somebody could type, they could use a computer - actual computer use (IE - cohesive and coordinated use of the Microsoft Office suite, including Word, Access, Excel, etcetera) is NOT (at least up to the time I retired a year ago) taught to Clerks!!!  What they know, they learned on their own, or they were taught by their peers and superiors.  In my last unit prior to retirement, I held professional development sessions for two hours every week for my unit clerks.  They were taught how to PROPERLY use a database (which skill I picked up on my own time, paying for night courses throughout the years - BEFORE the Army began paying for this type of education).  I explained it to the Infantry CSMs in my unit this way - suppose a new weapons system is brought on-line.  You are shown a demonstration of what it can accomplish, then given the weapon without any training.  You are then expected to immediately successfully deploy this weapon to save your (and MY) life in battle.  That is exactly what we do to Clks with computers.  We dump these exotic tools in front of them, say "figure it out", then get mad when they can't.

6.  The shear breadth of expertise expected of RMS Clks is astonishing.  Just prior to the amalgamation of Adm, Fin and CEP into RMS, I took part in discussions aimed at breaking the Adm trade into three "feeder trades", feeding into a common trade at the WO level.  It was felt that there was just too much to know for a single trade.  I would have ended up as what we would call an "Operations Clk" - given that at the time I had NEVER worked in a Records or R&D section.  Instead of this, we added even MORE to the trade (Fin and CEP), and gave it a new name (RMS).  Given my operations background, you can imagine my surprise at being promoted to Warrant and discovering that I was IC of a Pay Office for over 500 men.  And THAT was only one of my roles as a major unit Chief Clerk.  Was I prepared??  You bet I wasn't - fortunately for me I had extremely knowledgeable MCpls who taught me.  So - keep that in mind the next time you have to lead a clerk through your mortgage - it's YOUR mortgage, you are MUCH more focussed on its' intricacies than the Sgt who may well have been working in C.E. all his career, managing projects.

7.  Long rant on one of my favourite subjects - bottom line for the fella who started this thread:  I feel for you, it is (in all probability) not the Clk's fault.  Take it up with your chain of command.  If the Clk's attitude is bothering you, take THAT up with your chain of command as well.  It's amazing what can be accomplished with a calm conversation between your CSM and the Unit Chief Clerk.  DON'T try to fix it yourself, and DON'T try to give the Clk an attitude adjustment all by yourself - you'll just make a bad situation worse.

'Nuff said - I'm retired and not supposed to even care anymore.


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## beach_bum (15 Mar 2005)

I have to say, that was better than any way I could have ever posted it.  I do everything I can to help the troops in my unit...but there is only so much I can do.  The chain of command is much more powerful than I.


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## Roy Harding (18 Mar 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> I'm still owed about 1000$, I'm not yet on the unit paysheet (still filling out my info by hand at the bottom) and according to Logistik Unicorp I'm in the air force, and can only order blue DEU kit. All these brought to the attention of my BOR, all continually ignored.
> 
> But hey, makes life interesting. Playing ring-around-the-rosie with the clerks.  :blotto:
> 
> Note: to all the other clerks who their job, I don't envy you at all, but keep up the good work eh? We need it.



Settle down, Son.  

It appears from your profile that you are a Musician, R871.  Please let us know which unit you belong to - and have you tried doing anything beyond blustering some young clerk who's just doing their best??  (IE - have you spoken (not shouted) to your chain of command?)


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## Roy Harding (18 Mar 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> I'm still owed about 1000$, I'm not yet on the unit paysheet (still filling out my info by hand at the bottom) and according to Logistik Unicorp I'm in the air force, and can only order blue DEU kit. All these brought to the attention of my BOR, all continually ignored.
> 
> But hey, makes life interesting. Playing ring-around-the-rosie with the clerks.  :blotto:
> 
> Note: to all the other clerks who their job, I don't envy you at all, but keep up the good work eh? We need it.



Oh, and by the way, what exactly is "Logistik Unicorp"???  I've been out for just over a year, but I don't recall this one.  (We'll discuss spelling and why it is important later.)  AND.. we'll discuss the impossibility of you being in the "Air Force" after that.


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Mar 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> Oh, and by the way, what exactly is "Logistik Unicorp"??? I've been out for just over a year, but I don't recall this one. (We'll discuss spelling and why it is important later.) AND.. we'll discuss the impossibility of you being in the "Air Force" after that.




Logistik Unicorp is the current supplier of all non-operational clothing items for the CF (i.e. DEU'S). Currently it is a pilot project is ongoing for reserve replacement clothing trial.

From Logistik Unicop site:

CLOTHING ONLINE
RESERVE REPLACEMENT CLOTHING TRIAL
Simple, Safe and Secure




As a reservist in the Canadian Forces (CF), you are going to take part in the Clothing Online Reserve Replacement Clothing Trial. With Clothing Online, you'll have 24-hr/day real time access to non-operational clothing (DEU) from anywhere in Canada using your desktop at home or in your office.  You will be able to replace non-operational clothing free of charge (in lieu of exchanges), and in addition you will have the option to purchase extra non-operational clothing.  



Here are answers to some of your most frequently asked questions:


What is â Å“The Clothing Online, Reserve Replacement Clothing Trial?â ?


The Clothing Online Reserve Replacement Clothing Trial is a DND initiative to trial the online ordering and direct delivery of CF Non-Operational Clothing (DEU) directly from the supplier to your home or place of work through the Internet. It is designed to bring you the convenience and personalization of Internet shopping, saving you the time and effort of travelling to Clothing Stores. 



What services are offered on this trial?


a.  Replacement of non-operational clothing:
As a reservist you will be able to replace your used non-operational clothing free of charge without having to visit Clothing Stores. Free replacement also means there is no delivery charge. This system is intended to replace the current non-operational clothing (DEU) exchange system, which means that starting 1 February 2004 reservists will not be allowed to exchange non-operational clothing (DEU) in CF Clothing Stores.  All other services at Clothing Stores will remain unchanged and fully accessible to reservists.  



b. Sales of non-operational clothing 
If you wish you may also exercise the option to purchase your non-operational clothing from Clothing Online. This service will be completely optional and you may still purchase items from CF Clothing Stores.



Is there a limit to what I can order?



Yes!  A points system has been introduced based on your annual entitlement; the cost of an item and the item's replacement interval.  There is also a limit to the quantity of items that you can order.  The number of points available to you is more than adequate to provide the replacement non-operational clothing you will require over the period of a year. 





What do I do with my old clothing?



Your old (worn) clothing remains with you for disposal, after removal of all rank insignia, buttons and military badges, as per existing DND supply policies. 



If I decide to purchase an item will it cost me more?


The price will be the same as the price you pay in the Clothing Stores.  There are no shipping and handling charges.



How do I pay for my purchases?


By major credit card, personal cheque / money order or C.O.D.



How do I know that my credit card number is safe?


Your Credit Card number is completely safe.  Clothing Online uses a 128-bit Encryption Technology. It encrypts your credit card number as soon as you type it in, making it impossible for anybody else to read. This secure payment system, used by online banking and Stock Exchanges for money transfers, is considered the latest and safest on the market.



How long will it take to get my order?


From the time you order you will receive your clothing within 5 working days to anywhere in Canada (if stock of ordered items is available).



What about tailoring?


If tailoring is required, take your order into the Base Tailor and present your receipt (included with order) within 4 weeks of the shipping date, or use whatever local procedures are applicable.



Besides tailoring what other functions are not covered under Clothing Online?



Due to the very nature of the Clothing Online system there are some functions of the non-operational clothing (DEU) delivery system that, for the time being, cannot be handled by Clothing Online.  These areas will remain a CF Clothing Stores responsibility for the trial period and are shown below:



Loss and Damage
 Procedure to remain with Clothing Stores

Special Size Roll


 Procedure to remain with Clothing Stores.  Those personnel currently utilizing this service should view the size range offered with Clothing Online before ordering from Clothing Stores

Maternity Clothing
 Procedure to remain with Clothing Stores

Release from Forces 


 Procedure to remain with Clothing Stores

Upon release all items are to be returned to Clothing Stores

Nearly New Sales


 There is no nearly new items with Clothing Online

Tailoring
 Procedure to remain with Clothing Stores unless local procedures are applicable

Initial Issues
 Procedure to remain with Clothing Stores






If an ordered item does not fit, can I exchange it?


Yes you can, free of charge.  Clothing Online has a free return policy for exchanges.  Simply call 1-888-326-8688, and tell the Customer Service Representative what ordered item you wish to exchange and you will be given directions on how to return the item, only unused items will be accepted for exchange. Ordered items cannot be returned for a points credit. In exceptional cases the matter will be referred to the Project Management Office for disposition. Please Note: This is not a Supply System initiative; therefore you cannot return the items to Clothing Stores.





Chimo!


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## Roy Harding (18 Mar 2005)

Nfld_Sapper said:
			
		

> Logistik Unicorp is the current supplier of all non-operational clothing items for the CF (i.e. DEU'S). Currently it is a pilot project is ongoing for reserve replacement clothing trial.
> 
> From Logistik Unicop site:
> ......
> ...



Isn't that special.

I don't have a comment on it (yet), as I haven't been exposed to it.  My wife, however, is a Supply Tech, and I kinda want to hear from her on this subject.

More to follow ....


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Mar 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> Isn't that special.
> 
> I don't have a comment on it (yet), as I haven't been exposed to it.   My wife, however, is a Supply Tech, and I kinda want to hear from her on this subject.
> 
> More to follow ....



What's to comment on?   It's a great deal for reservists; we get x number of points to spend each year on DEU items - socks, t-shirts, trousers, jackets, scarves, overcoats, parade boots, oxford shoes - and if we want we can purchase with a credit card in case we really want stuff, and at good prices too.   I think it's a great system and I wish they would extend it to operational clothing.

They even ship by EXPRESSPOST so it gets to us in less than a week.  Plus you can do exchanges if the stuff doesn't fit.  Great for replacing worn out oxfords (we pipers tend to be hard on them, eh) or getting a new DEU tunic when you lose or gain weight rather than trying to wrestle with the handful of worn out stuff kept in the unit lines (or arranging to go down to the ASU on the one night a month they actually decide to support the reservists).


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Mar 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> What's to comment on?  It's a great deal for reservists; we get x number of points to spend each year on DEU items - socks, t-shirts, trousers, jackets, scarves, overcoats, parade boots, oxford shoes - and if we want we can purchase with a credit card in case we really want stuff, and at good prices too.  I think it's a great system and I wish they would extend it to operational clothing.
> 
> They even ship by EXPRESSPOST so it gets to us in less than a week. Plus you can do exchanges if the stuff doesn't fit. Great for replacing worn out oxfords (we pipers tend to be hard on them, eh) or getting a new DEU tunic when you lose or gain weight rather than trying to wrestle with the handful of worn out stuff kept in the unit lines (or arranging to go down to the ASU on the one night a month they actually decide to support the reservists).



It would be nice to have op clothing available like that too... but I think it would lead to more items being sold on E-Bay and at surplus stores.

Chimo!


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