# Measures against a officer cadet



## Candari

I'm currently a volunteer with a cadet unit. An OCdt with a position to assist in my role continuously fails to meet deadline and taskings that I have given him. I was told by a more senior officer at the unit that he has been failing to do his taskings for the past 2 years. Though countless conversations with the individual to understand what his problems are and try to assist him, no official documentation were put in record.

This OCdt was always put off the hook simply because he was "untrained." In a recent event, I assigned a task which I explained to him extensively on how to complete the task, and the knowledge necessary to complete the task. However, he still failed to complete it (He did not even start the task). I have given him the benefit of the doubt before, and given him an time extension, at which he still did not do the task. After which, an discussion was made between the two of us, and a more senior officer to facilitate the conversation. And even after that discussion, he still continuously fails to meet tasking expectations.

All in all, an officer that does not do any of the taskings that was assigned to him, fails to meet expectations and even after conversations for 2 years on this individual to try to improve him. What action should we take against this individual? Would a DND 2826 on Recorded Warning be suffice? Or would there be heavier measures?


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## George Wallace

Sounds like he should be "let go".  Get rid of the dead wood.  If he serves no purpose other than collecting a cheque, is incapable of doing the most basic of tasks, RELEASE him from all those commitments and send him on his merry way.  He is an administrative burden that will affect your whole Corps.


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## Candari

How should I go about doing that? If the member refuses to "sign off," what should be taken to move him out?


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## catalyst

A recorded warning given by a civilian volunteer is a grievance in waiting

This Officer Cadets' personnel issue(s) should be dealt with by the CO through the RCSU. Perhaps you could chat with the CO.


I agree that "we" need to cut the deadwood but it has to be done properly by the right people.


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## my72jeep

An Officer Cadet in the CIC has 3 years to complete BOQ, If he has been there that long and is still untrained fire him for failure to meet the minimums of his contract.


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## Pusser

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> A recorded warning given by a civilian volunteer is a grievance in waiting
> 
> This Officer Cadets' personnel issue(s) should be dealt with by the CO through the RCSU. Perhaps you could chat with the CO.
> 
> 
> I agree that "we" need to cut the deadwood but it has to be done properly by the right people.



Agreed.  A civilian volunteer can do absolutely nothing in this scenario, other than register a complaint (and perhaps document incidents).  The CO needs to deal with this and the OP needs to step back.   Let the CF handle CF members


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## X Royal

Candari said:
			
		

> *I'm currently a volunteer* with a cadet unit. *An OCdt* with a position to assist in my role continuously fails to meet deadline and taskings *that I have given him.*


Am I the only one seeing a problem with this process?
At no time should a civilian volunteer be in the position to give deadlines and tasks to a member of the Canadian Forces.
These should be issued through the unit chain of command.
If the unit's chain of command is allowing this, it is a weakness at the command level.
Also a civilian volunteer should play no part in deciding what if any discipline is to be taken. Reporting the facts to the chain of command is fine but beyond that it is a responsibility of the chain of command to deal with.


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## Candari

Re: ArmySailer & Pusser
Understood, I will have all documentations ready for the CO of the unit to deal with.

Re: X Royal
The CO of my unit is simply placing performance before ranks. Besides, an OCdt that is untrained (and failed BOTC) is no better than a civie. However, I do understand where this is coming from..


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## X Royal

Candari said:
			
		

> Re: X Royal
> Besides, an OCdt that is untrained (and failed BOTC) is no better than a civie.


Better as in performance, maybe no.
As a member of the Canadian Forces a OCdt has responsibilities and can be held accountable in a ways a civilian can not be.
In a military organization the chain of command must be followed to maintain order.
Civilian volunteers are not part of the chain but can be valuable assets to these units.


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## JesseWZ

What about in combined DND headquarters, or Fleet Maintenance Facilities, TEME's etc where there are a large number of both? I understand working at TEME is not a volunteer job, but at the end of the day many times the Chain of Command includes civilians...


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## myself.only

X Royal said:
			
		

> Am I the only one seeing a problem with this process?
> At no time should a civilian volunteer be in the position to give deadlines and tasks to a member of the Canadian Forces.
> These should be issued through the unit chain of command.
> If the unit's chain of command is allowing this, it is a weakness at the command level.



Well, I'd have to say: it depends. It could be that the OCdt has been tasked by his chain of command to support the civilian volunteer who is acting as a SME or running fund-raising or some other activity that falls within the bailiwick of the support committee.  So, for instance, the OCdt is booking a classroom in an armoury, attending a briefing, passing on info from the civilian volunteer, ensuring mil training aids are drawn, showing up to supervise cadets helping or participating in an event, etc. So while the OCdt is operating within his TOR from the CO, he is taking direction from the civilian volunteer ramrodding the event... and allegedly, in this case not getting tasks done.



			
				X Royal said:
			
		

> Also a civilian volunteer should play no part in deciding what if any discipline is to be taken. Reporting the facts to the chain of command is fine but beyond that it is a responsibility of the chain of command to deal with.


Agree 100%.


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## jpjohnsn

Candari said:
			
		

> I'm currently a volunteer with a cadet unit. An OCdt with a position to assist in my role


Just out of curiosity, and for the sake of clarity, what's your "role"?


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## my72jeep

X Royal said:
			
		

> *Am I the only one seeing a problem with this process?
> At no time should a civilian volunteer be in the position to give deadlines and tasks to a member of the Canadian Forces.*
> These should be issued through the unit chain of command.
> If the unit's chain of command is allowing this, it is a weakness at the command level.
> Also a civilian volunteer should play no part in deciding what if any discipline is to be taken. Reporting the facts to the chain of command is fine but beyond that it is a responsibility of the chain of command to deal with.


In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer when that Civi is a 1) a Specialist with knowledge over the officer ie  Pilot biathlon coach or 2) a former CIC or Officer that has retired and has come back as a CI. and the unit is using them to fill a void.


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## X Royal

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer when that Civi is a 1) a Specialist with knowledge over the officer ie  Pilot biathlon coach or 2) a former CIC or Officer that has retired and has come back as a CI. and the unit is using them to fill a void.


A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.
If this is happening it is a complete failure in leadership in the unit.


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## myself.only

X Royal said:
			
		

> A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.



Agreed... but I could see situations wherein a Civilian volunteer could be given tactical control over an officer(s) assigned to a task. 

And I believe a specialist would legally have some functional authority over an officer possessing less qualifications in that specialty... so a civilian volunteer employed for his Level 2 Kayak instructor qual would have authority over the CIC Level 1 Kayak instructor within the limits of his duties as a kayak instructor.  Again, that's not command but the CIC is not the one calling all of the shots. 

I can't speak to the second case: any practice of putting a current member of the CAF under the command of a former member of the CAF.


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## my72jeep

X Royal said:
			
		

> A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.
> If this is happening it is a complete failure in leadership in the unit.


I did not say it was legal, I said it's common. Who would you want making decisions a 19 year old 10 day wonder with 30 day's in or a former Major cold weather instructor?


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## jpjohnsn

myself.only said:
			
		

> Agreed... but I could see situations wherein a Civilian volunteer could be given tactical control over an officer(s) assigned to a task.
> 
> And I believe a specialist would legally have some functional authority over an officer possessing less qualifications in that specialty... so a civilian volunteer employed for his Level 2 Kayak instructor qual would have authority over the CIC Level 1 Kayak instructor within the limits of his duties as a kayak instructor.  Again, that's not command but the CIC is not the one calling all of the shots.


I don't think "tactical" is the word you are looking for.

Okay, let's clear up a few things first.  The terms Civilian Volunteer and Civilian Instructor are not completely interchangeable..  

Civilian Instructors, at the corps level, "shall only be employed in instances where there are no qualified Canadian Forces (CF) members available to fill a position. In the event that a CI is filling an established position and a qualified CF member subsequently becomes available, the CI shall be advised that they are to relinquish the position in favour of the CF member."    Again, at the corps level, there are Generalist CIs (GCIs) that are employed to instruct and supervise cadets and may be given overall responsibility for an activity or group of cadets.   The other is Specialist CI who is occasionally brought in to instruct because they have a specific skill or qualifications no found in an available member of the CCO.

For a GCI, typically the activities they are given responsibility for a things like teams or specific aspects of training - especially if there isn't a CF member available to supervise.  They should not be employed in a position where they have CF members under their direction on an ongoing basis.

For specialist CIs, like pilots or anything where safety is concerned, CF members would follow their directions and instructions.  This is for a specific activity and short-termed.

For civilian volunteers (CV): "The commanding officer of a cadet corps or cadet camp may authorize volunteers, including members of the Canadian Forces, to assist cadet instructors and civilian instructors in cadet activities, provided such assistance is under the supervision and direction of either a cadet instructor or civilian instructor."  They assist, they aren't in charge of anyone or any activity.  

If a CV is also a member of the sponsoring committee, the hat they wear is dependent on which side of the fence they are working at that moment.  If they are working for the CO on a cadet activity, they're a CV.  If they are working for the sponsoring committee they aren't.  And though corps staff is directed to cooperate with the SC on things like findraising, members of the SC are in no way in authority over any member of corps staff.

Any way you slice it, a corps-level CV has no authority over an OCdt.


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## GR66

I worked in a Base Orderly Room where several of the Section Heads were civilians with both military and civilian staff reporting to them.  This was specifically due to the fact that the civilians remained in the departments for a much longer period of time and retained a great deal more corporate knowledge than would a military staff member posted in for a comparatively short period of time.

That being said, there is a MILITARY chain of command in place to deal with issues of discipline and performance.  I don't see anything unusual (in my limited experience) with a civilian member being assigned to oversee and give taskings to a military member, however I agree that it's the Military CoC'd responsibility to deal with these performance issues.


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## myself.only

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> I don't think "tactical" is the word you are looking for.



Well it's not my term , I'm referring to a specific, limited type of command relationship (TACON) providing direction and controlling employment of resources assigned to a task (as opposed to assigning the task in the first place, for instance). 

Having said that, I think your detailed explanation nailed it.   When employed by the CO, not in the capacity of a Specialist CI or a support committee member, a CV would have no authority over a member of the CAF, including OCdts.

But in the absence of more info from the OP... this discussion is marking time, no?


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## jeffb

There is a big difference between having the authority to provide direction and being in the Chain of Command. At no point is any civilian in the Chain of Command. If the CO is unavailable, command does not fall to the CO's secretary it falls to the 2I/C and all the way down the Chain of Command to the most junior of officers. While there are times where it may be appropriate for a civilian to provide some supervision and oversight of a military member, they are NOT, nor can they ever be, in their Chain of Command by virtue of their lack of command authority such as an officers commission.


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## my72jeep

jeffb said:
			
		

> There is a big difference between having the authority to provide direction and being in the Chain of Command. At no point is any civilian in the Chain of Command. If the CO is unavailable, command does not fall to the CO's secretary it falls to the 2I/C and all the way down the Chain of Command to the most junior of officers. While there are times where it may be appropriate for a civilian to provide some supervision and oversight of a military member, they are NOT, nor can they ever be, in their Chain of Command by virtue of their lack of command authority such as an officers commission.


Never said in the chain of command.


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## jeffb

Nope, you didn't but it was mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## CombatDoc

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Never said in the chain of command.


No, what you actually said was "In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer...".  Used in a military context, the phrase "in command over" implies a CoC relationship between a superior and subordinate.


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## my72jeep

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> No, what you actually said was "In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer...".  Used in a military context, the phrase "in command over" implies a CoC relationship between a superior and subordinate.


Ok "Can be put in Command of" sound better?


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## The Bread Guy

Maybe public service terms might make it simpler.

Can a civilian volunteer or CI be designated by the CO as a project or task lead, with support to be provided by a uniformed member(s) designated by the same CO?


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## myself.only

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Maybe public service terms might make it simpler.
> 
> Can a civilian volunteer or CI be designated by the CO as a project or task lead, with support to be provided by a uniformed member(s) designated by the same CO?



I dunno... I'm not familiar with public service terms but wouldn't agreeing with the above only indicate yes, they're both working on the same thing, but then kind of neatly side-step the whole relationship and lines of authority between the two?


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## CombatDoc

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Ok "Can be put in Command of" sound better?


No. Remove "Command" entirely, and perhaps substitute with supervise/be the team lead/oversee tasks, etc.


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## my72jeep

For the most part the Members of the Canadian Military On these Forms say that CIC are not Military, and they want the CIC out of the Military and into something like the old Cadet Service of Canada. But wait, find out that at times We use Civilians in Positions of authority over an Officer Cadet and wow you want us back in the Military so you can Quote COC, NDA, and so on. 
In 20+ years I have seen a Civilian's in roles where the an Ocdt report's to them, mainly because the Ocdt. does not have the time in, experience, or maturity to be in command a position of authority. 
Have I ever seen a Civi discipline an Officer no, but I have had to deal with a lot of recommendations on how they should be whipped, shot, pissed on, ect.


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## myself.only

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> No. Remove "Command" entirely, and perhaps substitute with supervise/be the team lead/oversee tasks, etc.



OK, looking to a RegF example.... how would the CAF describe the relationship / authority of a civilian employee who runs... say clothing stores... and the Cpls that do his bidding?


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## jpjohnsn

my72jeep said:
			
		

> For the most part the Members of the Canadian Military On these Forms say that CIC are not Military, and they want the CIC out of the Military and into something like the old Cadet Service of Canada. But wait, find out that at times We use Civilians in Positions of authority over an Officer Cadet and wow you want us back in the Military so you can Quote COC, NDA, and so on.
> In 20+ years I have seen a Civilian's in roles where the an Ocdt report's to them, mainly because the Ocdt. does not have the time in, experience, or maturity to be in command a position of authority.
> Have I ever seen a Civi discipline an Officer no, but I have had to deal with a lot of recommendations on how they should be whipped, shot, pissed on, ect.


Well, I'm in the CIC with 20+ years in and I don't agree with everything you've said either.

The use of CIs at summer training centres is a special case, and are treated in regulations as such, because those placed in leadership positions are hired because they have specific qualifications that those in uniform just don't have (i.e. instructor pilots or sailing instructors and the like).  We give that a nod and a wink because we need to do that to make things work for the cadets at the CSTC level or courses just can't be run.

At the local headquarters, CIs and CVs are on staff to fill instructor positions or provide a specific set of skills when we simply don't have uniformed staff to fill those spots or have those quals.  Yes, sometimes these "instructors" might end up in non-training jobs - like supply - even when they are supposed to be employed like that.  But generalized CIs, are not employed to lead CF members as a normal part of their duties.  Civilian Volunteers are only employed to assist CIs and CIC officers - period.

Now, CIs can be tasked by a corps CO to run an activity.  Despite being nominally in charge, those of us in uniform are not under their command (authority, whatever you want to call it).  We *cooperate* with them by abiding with their directions to make the activity work but, in general, they are not the boss of us.

Now, the OP hasn't really given us the complete picture of the situation here.  To be honest, they didn't even use the term civilian to describe their volunteerism.  We have CF members out of Borden that are authorized to be "uniformed volunteers" for us.   

If this is for a specific activity and the OP is a Civilian Volunteer, yes, the OCdt might have been tasked to do a number of things for them.  If the OCdt is the waste of skin the OP claims then they should be talking to the TrgO or CO and let them handle it.  If a corps level CV or CI is in a position of authority over a CF member as part of their regular job, that needs to stop in a hurry.

*EDIT*
POSTED BY myself.only


> OK, looking to a RegF example.... how would the CAF describe the relationship / authority of a civilian employee who runs... say clothing stores... and the Cpls that do his bidding?


You are comparing apples to oranges.  Your example is that of a civilian employee and not a civilian instructor.  The terms of reference for a CI are specific as to their primary function.  CV TORs are even more specific.


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## myself.only

My unit has never employed a lot of civilian staff... but I know you see a lot of "different" things out there.... so maybe that's why I'm kind of scratching my head on the concept of putting them in charge of CAF members.



			
				jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> You are comparing apples to oranges.  Your example is that of a civilian employee and not a civilian instructor.



Agreed. Sorry, I was not saying it's the same thing. I was looking to find the exact language used in the civilian employee's TOR to explain his relationship, and then see if the language would be applicable / transferrable to the CCO.



			
				jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> The terms of reference for a CI are specific as to their primary function.  CV TORs are even more specific.



Sorry JP, I wish I could share your optimism on that. But TORs?  Maybe at gliding centres and CSTCs but at the unit level, I'd doubt you'd find many units with TORs for specific functions.  Hopefully they could point you in the direction of the CATOs but position specific TORs for civilians?


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## X Royal

my72jeep said:
			
		

> For the most part the Members of the Canadian Military On these Forms say that CIC are not Military, and they want the CIC out of the Military and into something like the old Cadet Service of Canada. But wait, find out that at times We use Civilians in Positions of authority over an Officer Cadet and wow you want us back in the Military so you can Quote COC, NDA, and so on.


I always believed that CIC are part of the Canadian Forces as as such should act as such. When you skirt the rules and state Cadet organizations do things differently it's a crock. You can't have it both ways.


			
				my72jeep said:
			
		

> Have I ever seen a Civi discipline an Officer no, *but I have had to deal with a lot of recommendations on how they should be whipped, shot, pissed on, ect.*


To listen to complaints about your officers deficiencies is one thing, but to even begin to deal with recommendations on how they should be disciplined is wrong and in my opinion a failure of leadership. These civilians should cut off at the start of the subject and told clearly any discipline is a responsibility of the chain of command which they are not part of.


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## X Royal

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In 20+ years I have seen a Civilian's in roles where the an Ocdt report's to them, mainly because the Ocdt. does not have the time in, experience, or *maturity* to be in command a position of authority.


My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?
A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charge well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.


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## jpjohnsn

X Royal said:
			
		

> My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?
> A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charged well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.


Very true.  While my particular squadron has never been in a position where we were desperate for staff, we've had an official policy that cadets need to wait at least a full calendar year before even inquiring about joining the staff.  They need to get out there and "get a life" outside of the cadet system or, often, they end up being what I call "cadet officers" rather than CIC officers.  It's my own terminology to separate those who want to work with cadets in some semblance of a professional manner from those who just want to extend their cadet careers and end up being 40 and still acting like an 18 year-old cadet.

Not every cadet corps, by virtue of geography, lack of qualified candidates or whatever, can afford to be that picky, though.


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## myself.only

X Royal said:
			
		

> My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?



Well, we can't leave them ALL  for our Affiliated units!  ;D



			
				X Royal said:
			
		

> A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charged well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.



Yeah, personally I call it the "Peter Pan syndrome" where really the ex-cadet is simply striving to continue his or her connection to the unit beyond 19.  Not a recipe for success until they realize they must accept their new role and find new ways to contribute.  I've sent a few of them to my Affiliated Regiment, told others to give it a year etc., some come back.

Having said that, I'd say immaturity is a constant in young officers in every MOSID/branch.  Rather than de-select them, isn't it a command responsibility to provide the guidance and mentorship to grow into the role of officer?  After all, there's never a single one-size fits all approach to how an ex-cadet or an ex-CAF member will work with a Corps/Sqn.  And, in the absence of crusty WOs, it falls to the more experienced CIC officers to sort them out.
My  :2c:


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## my72jeep

X Royal said:
			
		

> I always believed that CIC are part of the Canadian Forces as as such should act as such. When you skirt the rules and state Cadet organizations do things differently it's a crock. You can't have it both ways.To listen to complaints about your officers deficiencies is one thing, but to even begin to deal with recommendations on how they should be disciplined is wrong and in my opinion a failure of leadership. These civilians should cut off at the start of the subject and told clearly any discipline is a responsibility of the chain of command which they are not part of.


7 out of 10 times the Civi I'm listening to is a former member telling me how it would have been done back in the Guards/Watch/Calvary. Now as to following the suggestions, No It doesn't happen.


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## The Bread Guy

my72jeep said:
			
		

> 7 out of 10 times the Civi I'm listening to is a former member telling me how it would have been done back in the Guards/Watch/*Calvary*.


Wow, THAT's old and salty - when "centurion" was a rank, not a tank!





 ;D


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## myself.only

:rofl:


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## my72jeep

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Wow, THAT's old and salty - when "centurion" was a rank, not a tank!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;D


Now that got the response I was looking for.


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## Candari

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> Well, I'm in the CIC with 20+ years in and I don't agree with everything you've said either.
> 
> The use of CIs at summer training centres is a special case, and are treated in regulations as such, because those placed in leadership positions are hired because they have specific qualifications that those in uniform just don't have (i.e. instructor pilots or sailing instructors and the like).  We give that a nod and a wink because we need to do that to make things work for the cadets at the CSTC level or courses just can't be run.
> 
> At the local headquarters, CIs and CVs are on staff to fill instructor positions or provide a specific set of skills when we simply don't have uniformed staff to fill those spots or have those quals.  Yes, sometimes these "instructors" might end up in non-training jobs - like supply - even when they are supposed to be employed like that.  But generalized CIs, are not employed to lead CF members as a normal part of their duties.  Civilian Volunteers are only employed to assist CIs and CIC officers - period.
> 
> Now, CIs can be tasked by a corps CO to run an activity.  Despite being nominally in charge, those of us in uniform are not under their command (authority, whatever you want to call it).  We *cooperate* with them by abiding with their directions to make the activity work but, in general, they are not the boss of us.
> 
> Now, the OP hasn't really given us the complete picture of the situation here.  To be honest, they didn't even use the term civilian to describe their volunteerism.  We have CF members out of Borden that are authorized to be "uniformed volunteers" for us.
> 
> If this is for a specific activity and the OP is a Civilian Volunteer, yes, the OCdt might have been tasked to do a number of things for them.  If the OCdt is the waste of skin the OP claims then they should be talking to the TrgO or CO and let them handle it.  If a corps level CV or CI is in a position of authority over a CF member as part of their regular job, that needs to stop in a hurry.
> 
> *EDIT*
> POSTED BY myself.only
> You are comparing apples to oranges.  Your example is that of a civilian employee and not a civilian instructor.  The terms of reference for a CI are specific as to their primary function.  CV TORs are even more specific.



I do agree that I should shed more light to this situation. I was an officer released into SuppRes (Voluntary) and have taken up a league ID in my local cadet unit to help a bit with my expertise. It is true that I am put in an authoritative position in a constant manner over the OCdt. 



			
				X Royal said:
			
		

> My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?
> A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charge well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.



The problem is there are individuals that have gone through all the loopholes to get itself in the system. I'm not positive if you know of the CIC process, but I was quite a shock when I heard the story as well.

Back on topic is that I will provide documentation to the cadet unit CO and it will be up to him on what he would like to do next regarding the mbr.


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## gwp

X Royal said:
			
		

> A civilian volunteer (former officer or specialist) has no legal authority to command an active member of the Canadian Forces.
> If this is happening it is a complete failure in leadership in the unit.



There is a precision of language required here. 

The Commanding Officer of all CIC Branch members in a Region is the Regional Cadet Officer.  Those appointed as CO of Cadet Corps/Squadrons supervise the other officers, and paid CIs on the slate.  Volunteers are directed by the Corps CO and supervised by the League and Sponsoring Committee and serve at the pleasure of the assigned CO.  Members of theCF have oversight of CIs and volunteers.  However,  a paid CI may be appointed to be the Officer of Primary Interest or Officer in Charge and thereby provide direction to a member of the CF (just as any Civil Servant at DND may).  While a Corps CO may deal with issues (i.e. send an officer home from a training night who had clearly been drinking at dinner and maintain a record of the action) any formal disciplinary action must be taken by the Commanding Officer RCSU on the recommendation of the Corps CO supported by a record of performance.    

It is also noteworthy at the CO of a Cadet Corps is responsible to the CO RCSU and responsive - by way of answer to the Chairman of the Corps sponsoring Committee representing the Supervising League that is responsible for volunteers.  If the chairman of the sponsoring committee is not satisfied with the performance of a Corps CO they may take the matter to the Provincial League executive that can take the issue forward to the CO RCSU.


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## jpjohnsn

Candari said:
			
		

> I do agree that I should shed more light to this situation. I was an officer released into SuppRes (Voluntary) and have taken up a league ID in my local cadet unit to help a bit with my expertise. It is true that I am put in an authoritative position in a constant manner over the OCdt.


That doesn't really shed too much light.  What's this "authoritative position"?


> The problem is there are individuals that have gone through all the loopholes to get itself in the system. I'm not positive if you know of the CIC process, but I was quite a shock when I heard the story as well.


I'm positive that I know the process and I'd LOVE to hear about these "loopholes".  That the enrollment process involves both their cadet detachment/RCSU and CFRC, it would be interesting to see where the cracks are.


> Back on topic is that I will provide documentation to the cadet unit CO and it will be up to him on what he would like to do next regarding the mbr.


Here's the problem.  As a CV, it doesn't matter if you are in the CF or a pure civilian, you don't have standing to run anything.  

From the CATO:
_ "The commanding officer of a cadet corps or cadet camp may authorize volunteers, including members of the Canadian Forces, *to assist cadet instructors and civilian instructors in cadet activities, provided such assistance is under the supervision and direction of either a cadet instructor or civilian instructor.*"  _ 

As a CV, you're a helper, not a boss.  You start getting involved providing any documentation or anything like that, you risk laying the groundwork for a big, fat grievance and, perhaps, the termination of your CV agreement. 



			
				gwp said:
			
		

> There is a precision of language required here.
> 
> <snip> However,  a paid CI may be appointed to be the Officer of Primary Interest or Officer in Charge and thereby provide direction to a member of the CF (just as any Civil Servant at DND may).


Yes, let's be precise in our language.  The CATO says at generalist CIs at the corps level "are employed to instruct and supervise cadets and may be given overall responsibility for an activity or group of cadets. "  This clearly indicates that their "authority" - to use the term loosely - is directed towards the cadets and not to CF members - even numpty OCdts.  I once had the CO of our RCSU as a CV at my squadron teaching flying scholarship classes to our cadets when I was CO (me a Capt, he a LCol) and he made it quite clear that, as a Civilian Volunteer, his 3 hoops were at home when he was with us.


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## CombatDoc

myself.only said:
			
		

> OK, looking to a RegF example.... how would the CAF describe the relationship / authority of a civilian employee who runs... say clothing stores... and the Cpls that do his bidding?


I'd call them the supervisor or Clothing Stores IC. But, they are not in Command of CAF members nor are they the OC of clothing stores.  CO of the Svc Bn is in command, not the civvie in clothing stores with supervisory functions.


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## CombatDoc

myself.only said:
			
		

> Having said that, I'd say immaturity is a constant in young officers in every MOSID/branch.


I'm glad that you have avoided making sweeping generalizations.


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## my72jeep

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> That doesn't really shed too much light.  What's this "authoritative position"?I'm positive that I know the process and I'd LOVE to hear about these "loopholes".  That the enrollment process involves both their cadet detachment/RCSU and CFRC, it would be interesting to see where the cracks are.Here's the problem.  As a CV, it doesn't matter if you are in the CF or a pure civilian, you don't have standing to run anything.
> 
> From the CATO:
> _ "The commanding officer of a cadet corps or cadet camp may authorize volunteers, including members of the Canadian Forces, *to assist cadet instructors and civilian instructors in cadet activities, provided such assistance is under the supervision and direction of either a cadet instructor or civilian instructor.*"  _
> 
> As a CV, you're a helper, not a boss.  You start getting involved providing any documentation or anything like that, you risk laying the groundwork for a big, fat grievance and, perhaps, the termination of your CV agreement.
> Yes, let's be precise in our language.  The CATO says at generalist CIs at the corps level "are employed to instruct and supervise cadets and may be given overall responsibility for an activity or group of cadets. "  This clearly indicates that their "authority" - to use the term loosely - is directed towards the cadets and not to CF members - even numpty OCdts.  I once had the CO of our RCSU as a CV at my squadron teaching flying scholarship classes to our cadets when I was CO (me a Capt, he a LCol) and he made it quite clear that, as a Civilian Volunteer, his 3 hoops were at home when he was with us.


One Question? Have you ever worked with a Cadet Unit not in an urban center? some where 200/300km from the closest Tim Horton's? 700km from your Det, or the closest base?


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## jpjohnsn

my72jeep said:
			
		

> One Question? Have you ever worked with a Cadet Unit not in an urban center? some where 200/300km from the closest Tim Horton's? 700km from your Det, or the closest base?


If you'd been paying attention, you'd've noticed in one of my first posts I mentioned that you'd sometimes find "CIs" working in admin or supply because uniformed staff just isn't avaliable.  But the only mentions in regulations of civilians working as corps staff has them as instructors (which is what the I in CI stands for) or, in the case of civilian volunteers, as assistants to uniformed staff or CIs.  Any warm body in uniform at the corps level, is higher up the food chain than a CV.

That having been said, if the CV or CI has former service, a smart person would take advantage of any advice or expertise they could glean from them but that stops well short of putting that civilian in charge of any service member.


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## my72jeep

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> If you'd been paying attention, you'd've noticed in one of my first posts I mentioned that you'd sometimes find "CIs" working in admin or supply because uniformed staff just isn't avaliable.  But the only mentions in regulations of civilians working as corps staff has them as instructors (which is what the I in CI stands for) or, in the case of civilian volunteers, as assistants to uniformed staff or CIs.  Any warm body in uniform at the corps level, is higher up the food chain than a CV.
> 
> That having been said, if the CV or CI has former service, a smart person would take advantage of any advice or expertise they could glean from them but that stops well short of putting that civilian in charge of any service member.


So I take that as a No.


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## gwp

my72jeep said:
			
		

> One Question? Have you ever worked with a Cadet Unit not in an urban center? some where 200/300km from the closest Tim Horton's? 700km from your Det, or the closest base?



Yes, and why should it make any difference to how a Cadet Corps is led and supervised?  Most cadet corps/squadrons are a long way from any CF Base.  The cadet detachment model is the exception.


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## my72jeep

My last Cadet unit was 700km from my det and the closest base. I was the CO for 9 years in a row. 4 of said years I was the only CIC. CI's and CV's were all I had so don't tell me what the rules say, my HQ was ok with it. In my time I have seen the det remove a CO twice and put a Civi in Command because there was no other CIC Capable of command. Now the Civi's were  retired MWO's and agreed to join the CIC, and were fast tracked in.


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## gwp

my72jeep said:
			
		

> My last Cadet unit was 700km from my det and the closest base. I was the CO for 9 years in a row. 4 of said years I was the only CIC. CI's and CV's were all I had so don't tell me what the rules say, my HQ was ok with it. In my time I have seen the det remove a CO twice and put a Civi in Command because there was no other CIC Capable of command. Now the Civi's were  retired MWO's and agreed to join the CIC, and were fast tracked in.



And that is how it should work. Good on you.  But more correctly you were the only member of the CF for four years and you supervised the CI's and CVs who had no authority except that which came by way of your direction.  The civilian CO was not in command in the same way a member of the CF is not in command of a cadet corps and as the civilian paid CI as OIC (Officer in Charge) his authority to direct anyone else would be the same as any other civilian operating within DND.  Well done to those retired MWOs who agreed to re-muster in the CF as members of the CIC Branch.  

It might also be worth knowing the the Cadet Service of Canada was absolutely no different in its establishment or place in the Canadian Army than COATS and/or the CIC is today within the CAF.  It recruited from the same pool of talent (a large number of school teachers at one time) along with retired members, former cadets, parents, and anyone else in the community interested in supporting Army Cadets.    There were two courses of instruction the 7 week "Grade A Certificate - Cadet Instructor"  and a 4 week Chief Instructor Course as that was the title given to the senior officer at a Cadet Corps.  The less precise misnomer "Commanding Officer" came with integration.


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## myself.only

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> I'm glad that you have avoided making sweeping generalizations.



Guilty. 
Yes. I do believe that immaturity is a constant concern when training 19 year olds to lead, and no branch or trade has a secret stash of wise-beyond-their-years 19 year olds. :nod:


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## Pusser

I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:

Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.   There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.

Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."

HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.


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## my72jeep

gwp said:
			
		

> And that is how it should work. Good on you.  But more correctly you were the only member of the CF for four years and you supervised the CI's and CVs who had no authority except that which came by way of your direction.  The civilian CO was not in command in the same way a member of the CF is not in command of a cadet corps and as the civilian paid CI as OIC (Officer in Charge) his authority to direct anyone else would be the same as any other civilian operating within DND.  Well done to those retired MWOs who agreed to re-muster in the CF as members of the CIC Branch.
> 
> It might also be worth knowing the the Cadet Service of Canada was absolutely no different in its establishment or place in the Canadian Army than COATS and/or the CIC is today within the CAF.  It recruited from the same pool of talent (a large number of school teachers at one time) along with retired members, former cadets, parents, and anyone else in the community interested in supporting Army Cadets.    There were two courses of instruction the 7 week "Grade A Certificate - Cadet Instructor"  and a 4 week Chief Instructor Course as that was the title given to the senior officer at a Cadet Corps.  The less precise misnomer "Commanding Officer" came with integration.


The Civilian CO had OCDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them. One of them took 3 months to enroll the other took a bit over 5.


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## myself.only

my72jeep said:
			
		

> The Civilian CO had CDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them.



I'm sure it worked that way. 
But to be honest it sounds more like "command by gentlemen's agreement" and I don't think that would have held up to any serious legal scrutiny if it came down to a grievance / investigation.

As for rural v. urban... while I am from an urban centre, I really don't think it's a decisive factor for staffing... definitely no easy fix just because you're not in the boonies. Corps are still pretty much dependent on local resources and networking. Seems that if the CO knows people with military interests and relatively good health and some free time, the Corps has staff. Possibly spouse or ex-cadets who haven't left town. Either way, unless they come from inside the program it's a matter of "hey I know somebody."

Not surprising of course. Wasn't that long ago that Det sent me a survey asking how many responses we'd seen as a result of the CIC recruitment campaign. Hard to complete when you're laughing so hard.  Responses?  Zero. And the survey was the first evidence any of us had seen of any campaign.
Not sure where / how they thought DND or the League was getting the word out with any energy to earn the term "campaign". And that hasn't changed.


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## my72jeep

myself.only said:
			
		

> As for rural v. urban... while I am from an urban centre, I really don't think it's a decisive factor for staffing... definitely no easy fix just because you're not in the boonies. Corps are still pretty much dependent on local resources and networking. Seems that if the CO knows people with military interests and relatively good health and some free time, the Corps has staff. Possibly spouse or ex-cadets who haven't left town. Either way, unless they come from inside the program it's a matter of "hey I know somebody."


Town of 3000 No Scouts, Guides, Beavers, browines, Why you ask? 10 people got tired of running everything. My town suffers from Volunteer apathy, Parents work 12 hour shifts, if they work. All a youth program to them is free child care or a chance to go to the bar/coffee shop. As for local people with a Military intrest yes had two of them a couple they scared me, he told me about his time as a Green Beret in Nam ( funny his birth date was 1976) and she kept asking when does she get her gun issued.
With a Urban unit you have an influx of new bodies to recruit from if not from other units. My point is in a large Urban center the Book works, but far away from the Det. you may at times need to use the book as a guide, not as bible.


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## George Wallace

Pusser said:
			
		

> I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:
> 
> Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.   There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.
> 
> Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."
> 
> HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.




Also, when you look at the CAF hierarchy/Org Chart; who ultimately is in charge of the CAF?  Civilians in Parliament.


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## myself.only

my72jeep said:
			
		

> With a Urban unit you have an influx of new bodies to recruit from if not from other units.



I can understand how one might think that, but this hasn't been my experience. 
Our most reliable source of potential officers remain the people who have heard of the program: ex-cadets.  So Corps size seems more influential than city/town size and in an urban centre we're hardly the only unit in town so Corps sizes remain fairly modest (40-60) over the years.


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## gcclarke

Pusser said:
			
		

> I had a chat one day with a JAG lawyer on the whole subject of civilians vs CF when it comes to command vs supervision.  The gist of the situation is this:
> 
> Can a civilian supervise a CF member?  Yes.   There are several good examples of senior civilians supervising junior CF members in orderly rooms, stores sections, etc, accross the CF.  Civilians can even write and sign PERs as reporting officers, reviewing officers, etc.
> 
> Can a civilian "command" a CF member?  No.  Only a superior officer/NCO can exercise command authority and issue "orders."
> 
> HOWEVER, the way it actually works is that by placing CF members under the supervision, of civilians, the CF chain of command is ordering the CF member to follow the direction of the civilian.  In other words, I have to do what my civilian boss tells me to do, because the CDS has told me to do what the civilian says.



I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.

The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.


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## jpjohnsn

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.
> 
> The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.


No, not at all.  I think people are missing something important here though.  The civilians hired a cadet corps are not hired to fill management positions.  The job title isn't civilian employee - it's civilian instructor.  Their job description is in their name.  They are hired to help supplement the training staff by instructing cadets.  Leeway is given for them to fill other spots where uniformed staff is in short supply but they are not hired to replace uniformed staff.   Indeed, if they are filling an establishment position on a corps slate because there isn't enough CIC staff, any warm body in uniform transferring in bumps them out.  It doesn't matter if you were the CDS in your former life, if your corps' cadet RSM retired yesterday and was sworn in today, your contract would be terminated before the ink on their attestation paperwork was dry.

Civilian volunteers have even less standing.  They are specifically engaged to assist uniformed staff.  Having them in charge of a CIC officer - regardless of rank, is like taking a candy-striper at a hospital an making them in charge of a bunch of nurses.

The civvie who is hired to be a supervisor in supply is hired to run supply and all of their duties and responsibilities and who reports to whom is all laid out.  Civilian instructors are hired, in the main, to backfill CIC slots at the corps level.  They are not hired to head sections or be in charge of uniformed staff.  They are not that kind of civilian employee.

My72Jeep's experience is not one that should be an example of what can or should happen at a cadet unit.  That was a unique situation where the unit would have folded otherwise and was only meant to be a temporary situation while the uniform staff was being reestablished.  A regular, healthy, cadet unit is quite another matter.


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## CombatDoc

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I used to be in a position that didn't have a single person in uniform in the chain of command between myself and the Governor-General. My boss was a civvie, the project manager was a civvy, the DG was a civvy, the ADM was a civvy, the DM was a civvy, the minister was a civvie, the PM a civvy.
> 
> The way some folks in this thread are going on, you'd think that I couldn't be legally told to do a gosh darned thing.


Were you wearing a CF uniform at the time?  If so, then you definitely had a military CoC since you were a CF mbr.  FWIW, the DM is always a civilian, ditto for the MND and the PM.  Otherwise, we would call that a dictatorship which Canada most assuredly is not.


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## my72jeep

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> Were you wearing a CF uniform at the time?  If so, then you definitely had a military CoC since you were a CF mbr.  FWIW, the DM is always a civilian, ditto for the MND and the PM.  Otherwise, we would call that a dictatorship which Canada most assuredly is not.


Wasn't that the Last Government under the Liberals?


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## gwp

my72jeep said:
			
		

> The Civilian CO had CDT/2LT's. under them and had full Authority over them. One of them took 3 months to enroll the other took a bit over 5.


Do you mean Cadet Second Lieutenants (unusual to use cadet officer ranks except in a few remaining school corps) -- or CAF Second Lieutenants?   Perhaps it is just unfortunate short hand for members of the CIC Branch?


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## my72jeep

gwp said:
			
		

> Do you mean Cadet Second Lieutenants (unusual to use cadet officer ranks except in a few remaining school corps) -- or CAF Second Lieutenants?   Perhaps it is just unfortunate short hand for members of the CIC Branch?


Typo Ocdt/2LT


----------



## gcclarke

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> Were you wearing a CF uniform at the time?  If so, then you definitely had a military CoC since you were a CF mbr.  FWIW, the DM is always a civilian, ditto for the MND and the PM.  Otherwise, we would call that a dictatorship which Canada most assuredly is not.




Uhhhh, no, no I did not. I assure you, I was well aware of the org structure at the time. No military perseonnel were in my direct chain of command. There were other military personnel in the organization, but none I reported to, nor any that anyone I reported to reported to. The notion that all military people have a miltiary chain of command is just plain false. There's plenty of counter-examples. Again, my current personal example is as follows: me, civvy, civvy, civvy, civvy (project manager), military (Commodore), civvy (ADM), civvy (DM), minister etc. Now, I've got one CAF member in my chain of command... which leaves the question, who exactly is his military chain of command? Because he doesn't work directly for the CMS, the CDS, etc.


----------



## CombatDoc

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Uhhhh, no, no I did not. I assure you, I was well aware of the org structure at the time. No military perseonnel were in my direct chain of command. There were other military personnel in the organization, but none I reported to, nor any that anyone I reported to reported to. The notion that all military people have a miltiary chain of command is just plain false. There's plenty of counter-examples. Again, my current personal example is as follows: me, civvy, civvy, civvy, civvy (project manager), military (Commodore), civvy (ADM), civvy (DM), minister etc. Now, I've got one CAF member in my chain of command... which leaves the question, who exactly is his military chain of command? Because he doesn't work directly for the CMS, the CDS, etc.


Well Lt(N), we'll just have to agree to disagree.  If you wear the uniform as an RCN officer, then you have someone in a military CoC that you ultimately report to.


----------



## Pusser

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> Well Lt(N), we'll just have to agree to disagree.  If you wear the uniform as an RCN officer, then you have someone in a military CoC that you ultimately report to.



Yes and no.  It depends on what you mean by "report to."  There are plenty of examples where military members will never report to another military member in any practical sense.  Thus GC Clarke's comments are "more correct."  Having said that, however, ultimately, the CDS is responsible for the leadership of the CF (says that right in the NDA), so in fact, the CDS, who is a military member, is in all of our Chains of Command.


----------



## gcclarke

The most important aspect of the phrase "Chain of Command" is the "chain" part. For someone to truely be considered in your chain of command, you need to be able to clearly demonstrate how ultimately they report to you, perhaps with a number of subordinates in between, or you to them, perhaps with some superiors in between. It's a chain of command because it's a series of single links upwards. No one has more than one _immediate superior _ in the chain of command, otherwise it would be a web of command.

To say that the CDS is in my chain of command because he's responsible for the leadership of the CF sounds like trying to hand-wave away that principle. Dotted lines on an org chart do not a chain of command make.


----------

