# Home Purchases



## Shamrock (21 Apr 2007)

We bought a home in September of '06.  My wife came out for the HHT, and after she returned home, we placed a bid on a home we had agreed upon.  Because we were in seperate cities, a lot of the business required phone and fax interaction.

Realtor contacted the wife to inform her that before our offer was accepted, a counter-offer had been placed.  This caused us to reconsider our offering price; we ended up offering more than the asking price as a result.  Realtor later called us to tell us our offer had been the one accepted -- the second offer had been retracted because they were unable to work within the possession dates.

Recently, we learned that there was no second offer.  The realtor, whose name or leading information I will not disclose, lied.  Although this was not our first home, we still fell for it.  I don't know how common this is, but I caution all home buyers against it.


----------



## Pte_Martin (21 Apr 2007)

As a person who is looking at purchasing a house right now i thank you for the advice and your story


----------



## BernDawg (21 Apr 2007)

If you were lied to it's called fraud.  There must be somewhere he can be reported to and if there isn't out him here and we can spread the word so it won't happen to any one else.

I am up for a posting this year too and I do thank you for the heads up.


----------



## Roy Harding (21 Apr 2007)

Shamrock:

Get in touch with the local Real Estate Board, and any other pertinent professional organization you can think of.  Tell them EVERYTHING, including the realtor's name.

I have bought and sold many homes over the years, and have always found the Realtors I dealt with to be professional, honest folk.  They as a professional group certainly don't want such a dishonest scumbag in their organizations.

Always ask for references, ask your friends and co-workers for recommendations.  If you have a Realtor in your current city with whom you are happy, ask them for recommendations in your target city.  If you get a "hincky feeling" when you first meet your Realtor, find another one.  Realtor's that I've known on a personal, non-professional,  basis have told me that they certainly don't take umbrage at people switching Realtors - it's a really personal relationship - you have to disclose much about your personal lifestyle and finances to them, and be comfortable doing it.

Personally, I always preferred middle-aged women as Realtors.  I don't know why exactly - they seemed to understand what we were looking for, and I felt comfortable with them.  You may find a different demographic more to your taste.

Real estate is the largest purchase you will ever make - take the time to do it right.


Roy


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (21 Apr 2007)

I can only echo what Roy said, get ahold of the local real-estate board, I have a friend on the board in Calgary and more than once the CREB has suspended or outright pulled the license of a dishonest Agent.


----------



## Spring_bok (22 Apr 2007)

I recently bought a house in Petawawa and paid over list due to another buyer putting in an offer.  How do you know that there wasn't another offer?  We considered that maybe there wasn't another offer but I can't imagine a realtor that would risk their license over something like that.  If you are sure then you need to contact RECO.  They will hold realtors accountable.

http://www.reco.on.ca/


----------



## 3rd Horseman (22 Apr 2007)

Shamrock,

   Issues like that leave a bad taste in home purchasers mouths, it is too bad. As a realtor I can tell you that it is the Law that your realtor be advised if their is another offer on the property you have made an offer on, it is also the Law that the realtor inform you of that fact. If no offer existed then we have a breach of the rules and you have recourse. PM me the location and I will give you the contact names and way to make the complaint. You are entitled to compensation from the realtors insurance company if you prove your case has merit.

  Most important points in selecting a realtor, 
1. Come from a name brand company.(this gives you connections, vital in realestate) 
2. *****Works Full Time as realtor**** (hard to believe but it is true 50% of the realtors in Fredericton sell less than 2 homes per year)
3. Understands your area of interest, (works and lives in the community, for mil moves was in the mil, hard to give advise about a home when you don't know were the street is)
4. Select a realtor that you feel comfortable with, interview 2 or 3 realtors and select the one that connects with you. I have meet clients and passed them to other realtors as I knew I was not going to get along with them, you should do the same.
5. Select a realtor that has a knowledge of the issues of a homes construction...(Roy you may want to change your favorite demographic for this reason alone)
Now I will be bias....select a realtor who is ex military...why.. they know you better than anyother realtor and it is good to support your military brothers/sisters who have moved on to civi street, you will be their one day to. If you have a wounded soldier who does this or anyother job/business as a living then be sure to support them, it is the least you can do.


----------



## Roy Harding (22 Apr 2007)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> ...
> 5. Select a realtor that has a knowledge of the issues of a homes construction...(Roy you may want to change your favorite demographic for this reason alone)
> Now I will be bias....select a realtor who is ex military...why.. they know you better than anyother realtor and it is good to support your military brothers/sisters who have moved on to civi street, you will be their one day to. If you have a wounded soldier who does this or anyother job/business as a living then be sure to support them, it is the least you can do.



I disagree on both above points.

Firstly - ALWAYS get a home inspection done by a qualified, certified, recommended home inspector.  Realtor's knowledge of construction issues is irrelevant if you do this.  (As I have only bought/sold real estate in Alberta and British Columbia, I am not aware of how well the home inspection industry is regulated in the rest of the Dominion.  Tread just as carefully in the selection of this individual as with the selection of a Realtor).

On the former CF member issue.  If all OTHER things are equal, and you have two candidates who are equally qualified, then perhaps the fact that one is a former military member could be the clincher - but such service shouldn't be a PRIMARY factor in the decision.

I agree with the remainder of 3rd Horseman's post.



Roy


----------



## simysmom99 (22 Apr 2007)

I am sorry to hear of the troubles that you have had.  I have personally bought and sold 2 houses fairly close together, and I used a fantastic guy.  In Edmonton there is also a former member who has been doing real estate for years and I hear nothing but great things about him.  If anybody needs a couple of good contacts in the Edmonton area, please let me know as I would be pleased to pass on info.
Good luck to those that are out looking.


----------



## GUNS (23 Apr 2007)

Just food for thought for those purchasing homes. Why do Realtor's charge the same fixed percentage rate regardless of the price of the house?

A $200,000 home will net the Realtor, $10,000 at 5% commission.

A $300,000 home will net the Realtor, $15, 000 at 5% commission.

He/she does the same amount of work to sell the house, why the $5,000 extra?


----------



## PO2FinClk (23 Apr 2007)

It's actually only fixed to a certain amount varying between provinces and then goes down to a lower rate. For example, 5% on the first 100K and 2% on the remainder. I do not have the exact figures but am sure either someone will have them or Google will. 

It does answer your question, but is only meant as a clarification. I would however jester that's only a means to make more money.


----------



## scoutfinch (23 Apr 2007)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> 5. Select a realtor that has a knowledge of the issues of a homes construction...(Roy you may want to change your favorite demographic for this reason alone)



Wow.  The weight of your stereotyping is really quite shocking.   :

Pray tell why middle aged women wouldn't know as much about new home construction as a man?  Especially a man engaged in real estate sales who has likely never built a home by himself?  I am not asking you to compare apples to oranges (ie female realtor to carpenter).  I am asking you to compare the average male realtor to the average female realtor and tell me why the male would know more about home construction than a woman?


----------



## niner domestic (23 Apr 2007)

Alrighty, a few things to consider regarding a home purchase.

Do your research.  And when you think you've done enough, do some more.  Why would anyone put their trust in persons who have an interest in making a paycheque out of your decision to guide you through the process without doing in depth research? I've seen couples research the latest and greatest baby gate, dog bowl, HDTV flat screen, paint chips and car purchases to death but when it comes to a house purchase that is usually the single most expensive acquisition they will ever make (barring the decision to have a kid that will just keep on costing them no matter how old the kid gets) they lay down, and give up their purchase power and knowledge acquisition to virtual strangers whose sole interest is the bottom line commission or fee out of the sale.  I have a friend that could tell you everything there is to know about kitchen appliances and can cite every source of consumer's reports but when it came to him being able to be as fluent in his knowledge about his 550K home, his response was, "mep, what do I know about building a house?" He is not enjoying the litigation process he's now in over the house. 

You want to buy a house? Learn about heating systems, plumbing systems, flooring, roofing, elevation and grading, sewers,sump pumps and sewer injectors, wells and cisterns, brick work and anything else that goes into or on a house during and after construction (because if you end up buying a house, you'll need to know these things in order to maintain your home).  Go hang out at a new home construction site and watch how homes are constructed these days.  Learn how to tell whether a home has been staged to make it look pretty or whether it's been staged to hide the minor and major defects and faults. Learn how to read a survey map, a masterplan for a subdivision, or a proposed zone change request and read the municipal by-laws for the area you are planning on moving into.  Learn the laws that govern a house purchase and sale.  Learn what the Building Code says for the area you are planning on buying in.  Study the new home warranties that are in your jurisdiction.  Follow the real estate market in the area of your choice, to see what the trends are.  Houses on the market for weeks usually mean something is not quite right with the property so learn what those problems usually are so you can ask point blank questions to the agent. Learn what is going to make a property an ideal resale later on down the road.  Learn how mortgages and home financing operate and learn how to shop for a mortgage, just don't jump to the broker that the sales agent/builder suggests without checking out the competition. Learn how to negotiate and don't depend on a stranger to do it for you.  Learn how to say NO.  Too often buyers or vendors are tired, naive or anxious of the process and forget to say no when something doesn't sound right or they are not getting warm fuzzies from the situation.  Learn how to take a step back and reload before you sign.  

Glossing over the details of a home purchase or sale is just simply a bad personal business decision.  You say you don't have time to learn all this or can't be bothered? If that's how you feel, then I have some swamp land in Florida for you to buy because you've just set yourself up to be taken advantage of by the industry.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Apr 2007)

9er D:  great advice.  I'm just done buying a new residence, using an agent (convenience and some market knowledge were needed, and there was not easy way to avoid bringing on an agent in this case).  I'm about to sell my current abode, probably without an agent.  The lack of competition between agents, the collusion to maintain pricing among agents and the general lack of skill and talent in the industry (try visiting open houses and chatting with a bunch of agents - a rather sobering experience!) have all lead me to this conclusion.

Not to put too fine a point on it:  Agent are parasites, wanting thier 5% regardless of the work they do.  I'd be more than willing to pick and choose the services I want and pay for them at fixed rates; the current scam of all or nothing, coupled with the industry's persecution of anyone who dares to compete on price leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.


----------



## 3rd Horseman (23 Apr 2007)

Olga Chekhova said:
			
		

> Wow.  The weight of your stereotyping is really quite shocking.   :
> 
> Pray tell why middle aged women wouldn't know as much about new home construction as a man?
> 
> *On average in this curent marketplace they dont. That is my expert opinion from observation of my fellow realtors.*  Especially a man engaged in real estate sales who has likely never built a home by himself?  I am not asking you to compare apples to oranges (ie female realtor to carpenter).  I am asking you to compare the average male realtor to the average female realtor and tell me why the male would know more about home construction than a woman? *Desire to learn and know that aspect of the business. In a business that has many different fasets one cannot know everything so one gravitates towards learning in areas of interest. On average middle age guys find lumber and nails interesting. You will find on average that female realtors will have more knowledge in other areas. My response was to Roys comment so when asking me a question keep it within that context so we dont go off on a tangent as usual. *



Actually I am also a home builder as well as a licensed realtor. Have been building major commercial and residential projects and homes for some 12 years.


----------



## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2007)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Actually I am also a home builder as well as a licensed realtor. Have been building major commercial and residential projects and homes for some 12 years.



Is there anything you haven't done?

Realetors should be used to find homes for prospective buyers, anything else they promise is a pig in a poke unless they can show accreditation.  

I've never relied on a realtor for home inspection advice or banking advice; they are not guaranteed to be experts in either just because they claim knowledge.  There are experts in both fields readily available, without any inherent suspicion of bias or conflict of interest.  The more a realtor tells me they know outside the lane I contracted them for, the less I trust anything they are trying to do on my behalf.


----------



## 3rd Horseman (23 Apr 2007)

9ner Dem and Dpat,

  Other than the negative view of realtors all very good points. We shall get into the issues of realtor performance later. For now I just want to say that everything 9ner dem said is true but that is all the realtors job if they are doing there job. Do your research so you know if a realtor is snowing you, if they are not then they are the ones who have done the expert training in all 9ner dem has said rely on them to guide you but don't give up control, your in control. Remember your in charge the realtor is just like a lawyer (I know you will like that one 9ner dem) they are your servant and expert to execute your desires after good advice. I cant speak for all realtors but I know that I dont do this for the individual paycheck off one house sale. An average house sale commission in NB to a realtor on average is about 1,500 dollars....not enough to make most people sell there soles.


----------



## 3rd Horseman (23 Apr 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Is there anything you haven't done? Yes, one comes to mind, after that crack. No need for that type of comment here
> 
> Realetors should be used to find homes for prospective buyers, anything else they promise is a pig in a poke unless they can show accreditation.  Exactly correct and they do more than just find you a home...well that would be the good ones who are accredited, which is what Im talking about.
> 
> ...


----------



## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Is there anything you haven't done? Yes, one comes to mind and that would involve you after that crack.
> 
> Realetors should be used to find homes for prospective buyers, anything else they promise is a pig in a poke unless they can show accreditation.  Exactly correct and they do more than just find you a home...well that would be the good ones who are accredited, which is what Im talking about.
> 
> ...



You talk tough, is that because you're a special ops FAC?

You're the one that opened the door to claiming a buyer should look for a realtor with "a knowledge of the issues of a homes construction", and then you get all offended when an opposing view is presented.  Do you have a problem with a realtor being expected to stay in their lane?


----------



## 3rd Horseman (23 Apr 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You talk tough, Yup only when dealing with punks is that because you're a special ops FAC? Yup but not anymore you jealous you didn't get to be one?


Shall this end the tit for tat so we can get on with the discussion? No need to through out smart ass comments they only get more smart ass comments sent back and that ruins the discussion.

Just clarifying not offended at valid questions concerns or perceptions. This has the potential to be a good discussion since most people don't know what to expect from a realtor, home inspector or banker. Let us learn together rather than fight through petty insults.


----------



## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2007)

Well, then stay in one lane at a time please.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Apr 2007)

Herb Tarlick?....Herb, is it really you?


----------



## niner domestic (24 Apr 2007)

On the issue of Home Inspectors:

In Canada, there is yet to be a national governing and regulatory body that oversees Home Inspectors. They have at best, associations that attempt to provide continuing education to its members.  This industry is trying to gain control of its own licensing and membership and is making small inroads to achieving that goal.  As it stands right now, anyone with or without adequate experience can say they are a home inspector, they only have to satisfy the local business licensing rules to set up shop.  

So back to my earlier post where I suggested that a potential home buyer learn what they need to know about home construction and relative legislation.  A home inspector (if you managed to get a good one), will point out visible flaws, defects and deficiencies of a home and give you an average opinion of the home's condition based on what one would expect to see of a similar home of a similar age and construction.  In other words, if the entire subdivision was built by a crappy builder but all the other homes similar to the one you were purchasing came in line with the each other in their conditions, you'd get a mid-range opinion.    The key phrase to watch for is, "In a home of similar construction, age and maintenance level you would expect this..."  It doesn't mean the home to ticketyboo, it means compared to the same type of home, it's either better, the same, or worse and that doesn't mean that the initial construction was great or worse.  The HI isn't comparing your purchase to the general construction field, just to a similar home.

The part I love the best about a HI is the limited or zero warranty on their opinion of the house.  In other words. if they told you the house was fine, and it ends up being a white elephant and money pit, you can't go back to the HI and sue them.  If we as a consumer, were to buy any other product or service and be told, "I'm not going to be liable if my opinion is wrong or the product sucks", we'd be running in the opposite direction from that product or provider YET, when it comes to a buying a house, we take everything about the house AT FACE VALUE! 

HI will not look beyond the obvious, or tear down anything get into the nitty-gritty of a home.  They will provide the potential purchaser an idea of what systems are being used in the home, and how to operate them, what to look out for as far as maintenance is concerned and potential visible problems or blatant building code violations.  (we'll talk about those later) 

Now to be fair to the HI who go further and attain some licensing and accreditation in certain areas such as WETT or who have registered with their respective associations, they are marginally better equipped to check out a house (they will bear an RHI behind their name).  There is a little rivalry going on between HI and engineers as to who provides the better service.  Engineers are licensed. They are registered.  They can give an opinion based on more than a visual take. And if they screw up, you CAN sue them.  HI, like to say that an engineer is too expensive and you can guess what the engineers say about the HI industry.  Bottom line is, if you as a home purchaser, haven't got a clue about home construction, systems and maintenance, nothing from either profession is going to mean diddly squat to you if you didn't do your research.  

Ok, so some things to think about: If you are unsure about the structural integrity of the home (because you did your research and saw some things that set off alarm bells), hire an engineer.  If you aren't sure about the price/value of the home, bring in a house appraiser.  Then ask yourself if the above two scenarios are occurring, should you even be going ahead with the offer or just moving along to the next home (that's where the learning to say No comes in handy)?


----------



## Spring_bok (24 Apr 2007)

I am a little skeptical of an appraiser.  I am of the opinion that market value is determined by the market.  An appraiser will not value a 25 year old bungalow in Petwawa at 190000 but that is its market value.  The market is what it is.  This has gotten a little off topic.  I was wondering how the original poster determioned that there wasn't a second offer and if he has had any success with this.


----------



## Shamrock (24 Apr 2007)

We decided we weren't happy with this place and contacted a realtor about maybe shopping around.  He did some looking for us, asked why we changed our offer and then told us that he could find no indication or record of another offer.  Given the length the home had been on the market and the amount of showings, he felt it was highly unlikely two offers would have come in within hours of each other.


----------



## Shamrock (24 Apr 2007)

Unnecessary Update:

We listed the house yesterday and had three showings today resulting in two offers (we checked, they're real offers).  The third showing came after the first two offers had been tabled; they were interested in placing an offer but the showing realtor steered them, as first time buyers, from getting into a bidding war.   All told we'll break even after all the costs of improvements and closing costs.

We're looking at buying a newer home, one built in the last few years.  Braebury homes in Kingston has quick possession on a former showhome.  Does anyone have any experience with these places and/or a built home?


----------



## niner domestic (24 Apr 2007)

Edited to remove informational sites.  I trust then that the same caveat will appear anytime anyone suggests an outside link to information?


----------



## Cloud Cover (24 Apr 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Here's some sites to get you started my four leaf clover...



Ahem: you forgot to disclaim that army.ca takes no responsibility for any reliance upon the contents of those sites or the results of any services obtained through those sites.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Apr 2007)

OHHH, I love when you 'types' talk all legal-like.... :-*


----------



## Cloud Cover (25 Apr 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> OHHH, I love when you 'types' talk all legal-like.... :-*



Grrrrr.... %$#%^@!!!  How come we don't have a middle finger icon? Now you have to buy the beer at Roxy's.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 Apr 2007)

Oh, oh.  Lawyers AND real estate agents in one thread!!! Two of the main ingredients. I see a new political party evolving ;D


----------



## niner domestic (26 Apr 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Oh, oh.  Lawyers AND real estate agents in one thread!!! Two of the main ingredients. I see a new political party evolving ;D



Oh gee look, a bystander with nothing to contribute to the topic... isn't there already a party for you to belong to? The NDP?


As for the appraiser, for CF members IRP is pretty much set on their use and require the member to have their home appraised prior to listing.  But as you suggest, the market sets the actual price.  However, I tend to be a little skeptical on how much that market is actually driven by the Realtor community as opposed to the buyer/vendor.  But as I said, if a buyer has got to the point where they are questioning the price/value of a home, either use an appraiser or walk away and move on to the next house.  

Having just bought and sold a home for an upcoming posting, we watched the market quite intensely in both locations.  While it may be just a some micro-bubble of a market trend right now, we found that the homes listed privately were actually selling at a higher market price than the ones listed by agents.  Which of course has pushed the market up.  We were a little dismayed to discover that the entire RE board in our area has determined that a particular physical characteristic of all the homes will devalue it, and when questioned on it, they claim it's just a quirk for the area.  This so called quirk, affects quite a wide area of the city and number of homes as well as having a monetary penalty attached for the vendor in the pricing of the their home.  It was quite amusing to watch our buyer ignore that quirk, and actually praise the fact we had it.  (they were from out of area).  We ignored the agents that insisted it was a negative selling point and kept the 10 grand in the price.  We sold in less than 12 hours, and got above asking.  So again, do your homework.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Apr 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Oh gee look, a bystander with nothing to contribute to the topic... isn't there already a party for you to belong to? The NDP?



I guess even with the smileys, the sarcasm was lost on you. Nothing wrong with a little levity here and there. Not every discussion has to be dominated by thesis type postings.


----------

