# PMQ



## GIJaneTechie (4 Jul 2021)

Hey! 
Unsure how to proceed, any feedback would be appreciated!
Active duty military living in a PMQ so I have the licence of occupancy; my name is the only one on paperwork. I rented a room out to a civilian and it has become acrimonious. Was reading on this site, that there are DND references, stating occupants can rent rooms as long as him/her are not charging more than the monthly amount, therefore no monetarily gain from it. Provincial landlord/tenant laws do not apply to National Defence Housing but does that include civilian roommates? Or since she is a civilian, she is protected by BC landlord/tenancy agreements? She's refusing to move because according to her, she'll decide if the reason to move is satisfactory, and whether or not, she wants to. 
HELP!


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jul 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> Hey!
> Unsure how to proceed, any feedback would be appreciated!
> *Active duty military l*iving in a PMQ so I have the licence of occupancy; my name is the only one on paperwork. I rented a room out to a civilian and it has become acrimonious. Was reading on this site, that there are DND references, stating occupants can rent rooms as long as him/her are not charging more than the monthly amount, therefore no monetarily gain from it. Provincial landlord/tenant laws do not apply to National Defence Housing but does that include civilian roommates? Or since she is a civilian, she is protected by BC landlord/tenancy agreements? She's refusing to move because according to her, she'll decide if the reason to move is satisfactory, and whether or not, she wants to.
> HELP!



Sounds like you're in the US military.


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## GIJaneTechie (5 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Sounds like you're in the US military.


Sorry, should have been specific. Canadian military and posted in BC


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## Blackadder1916 (5 Jul 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> Hey!
> Unsure how to proceed, any feedback would be appreciated!
> Active duty military living in a PMQ so I have the licence of occupancy; my name is the only one on paperwork. I rented a room out to a civilian and it has become acrimonious. Was reading on this site, that there are DND references, stating occupants can rent rooms as long as him/her are not charging more than the monthly amount, therefore no monetarily gain from it. Provincial landlord/tenant laws do not apply to National Defence Housing but does that include civilian roommates? Or since she is a civilian, she is protected by BC landlord/tenancy agreements? She's refusing to move because according to her, she'll decide if the reason to move is satisfactory, and whether or not, she wants to.
> HELP!



A thread with discussion applicable to your question









						Renting a room in an assigned PMQ - looking for references.
					

Came across an interesting ad this evening, with a member advertising a room for rent in a PMQ (for roughly a few hundred less then the member is likely paying for it - though it is a moot point).  This sets off some alarm bells to me, was curious if anyone could shed some light on the topic...




					army.ca
				




And some info about "roommates" according to BC.






						Is My Tenancy Covered Under B.C.’s Tenancy Laws?
					

A list of different types of accommodation and whether it is or is not covered by the RTA or MHPTA



					www2.gov.bc.ca
				





> Roommates
> The Residential Tenancy Branch does not have jurisdiction to resolve disputes between roommates. Most roommate disputes can be resolved through the Civil Resolution Tribunal (External link) or the court system.
> 
> Depending on the nature of the tenancy agreement, roommates may or may not be able to resolve disputes with their landlord through the Residential Tenancy Branch. If all roommates in a rental unit have signed a tenancy agreement with the landlord (either the same agreement or separate agreements), they can resolve disputes with their landlord through the Residential Tenancy Branch. However, if a roommate has an agreement with a tenant, but not the landlord, they can’t resolve disputes with the landlord through the Residential Tenancy Branch as there is no contractual relationship between the roommate and the landlord








						Roommates - TRAC
					

The topic of roommates is one of the most complicated areas of residential tenancy law. It is important to know what rights you have as a roommate in BC.




					tenants.bc.ca
				





> “Roommates / Occupants”
> An “occupant/roommate” is a person who rents from a tenant with whom they live, rather than the landlord, and is therefore not covered under the Residential Tenancy Act (RTA). This living situation is common in shared houses where a “head-tenant” rents out bedrooms to roommates. If you enter this kind of arrangement, you will not be protected by the RTA, and TRAC and the RTB will not be able to assist you. See RTB Policy Guideline 19 for more information.
> 
> Disputes between “occupants/roommates” and tenants/landlords: Occupants/roommates cannot use the RTB’s dispute resolution system to settle disputes with tenants, landlords, or other occupants/roommates. Instead, any legal problems would have to be settled through Small Claims Court, the Civil Resolution Tribunal, or BC Supreme Court.


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## Zoomie (5 Jul 2021)

RHUs are not covered under the BC RTA..  (Is My Tenancy Covered Under B.C.’s Tenancy Laws?). Scroll down the military housing.

Call the MPs and have this trespasser removed from your military housing.  Recommend you talk to your SCWO ASAP.


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## GIJaneTechie (5 Jul 2021)

She's threatening to report me as a fraud to the military and press charges using BC Tenancy Landlord Agreement. She's a peach. I heard that as the one who has the licence of occupancy, I can call MP's to remove from those who don't. What is a SCWO?


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jul 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> She's threatening to report me as a fraud to the military and press charges using BC Tenancy Landlord Agreement. She's a peach. I heard that as the one who has the licence of occupancy, I can call MP's to remove from those who don't. What is a SCWO?


SCWO = Squadron Chief Warrant Officer 

Basically, engage your CoC.


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## PuckChaser (5 Jul 2021)

Squadron Chief Warrant Officer.

You need to get your chain of command involved and ask for their guidance/assistance, before this snowballs. She can threaten whatever she wants, but give her the print out of the link Zoomie posted, give her some reasonable time to pack her things and have a prearranged a time for the MPs to show up to escort her out. She has no legal right to military housing. If she wants some, give her the address to the Recruiting Center.  She can take you to small claims court (someone previously posted that), so if she digs her heels in then prepare for a fight. 

You need to protect the PMQ, if she starts smashing walls and windows then you're on the hook for damages. CFHA doesn't care that she was a tenant.


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## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2021)

I had a reverse situation. One of my peers had a military tenant (a Sgt)  who would not abide by the terms. 

Her question was "who can I talk to within the military that can do something?". 

I directed her to the BCWO office. The tenant was moved out that afternoon.


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## Good2Golf (5 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I had a reverse situation. One of my peers had a military tenant (a Sgt)  who would not abide by the terms.
> 
> Her question was "who can I talk to within the military that can do something?".
> 
> I directed her to the BCWO office. The tenant was moved out that afternoon.


😂 Would have paid for ring-side seats to that!


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## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> 😂 Would have paid for ring-side seats to that!


It would have been a one way conversation I’d think


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## Good2Golf (5 Jul 2021)

Methinks you’re right, OS!


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## GIJaneTechie (5 Jul 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Squadron Chief Warrant Officer.
> 
> You need to get your chain of command involved and ask for their guidance/assistance, before this snowballs. She can threaten whatever she wants, but give her the print out of the link Zoomie posted, give her some reasonable time to pack her things and have a prearranged a time for the MPs to show up to escort her out. She has no legal right to military housing. If she wants some, give her the address to the Recruiting Center.  She can take you to small claims court (someone previously posted that), so if she digs her heels in then prepare for a fight.
> 
> You need to protect the PMQ, if she starts smashing walls and windows then you're on the hook for damages. CFHA doesn't care that she was a tenant.


She can take me to small claims? What was the circumance and results? CoC is now involved and CFHA is receiving updates. I should have asked clarification so this is my own lack of due diligence, but there was a written agreement. She's saying I used a landlord-tenant agreement but 99.9% certain, I used roommate roommate so therefore I lied to her and made her sign it (verbal hearsay), the landlord-tenant agreement  grants her protection. The written agreement, had a 30 day evication notice and a fixed date. It expired two years ago and never was resigned. She's using that as justification for upcoming small claims court. CFHA is aware of this detail, and pointed out it was not legally binding document, National Defence Housing supersedes. I gave her notice yesterday, July 5th with a move out date of September 2nd.


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## GIJaneTechie (5 Jul 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Squadron Chief Warrant Officer.
> 
> You need to get your chain of command involved and ask for their guidance/assistance, before this snowballs. She can threaten whatever she wants, but give her the print out of the link Zoomie posted, give her some reasonable time to pack her things and have a prearranged a time for the MPs to show up to escort her out. She has no legal right to military housing. If she wants some, give her the address to the Recruiting Center.  She can take you to small claims court (someone previously posted that), so if she digs her heels in then prepare for a fight.
> 
> You need to protect the PMQ, if she starts smashing walls and windows then you're on the hook for damages. CFHA doesn't care that she was a tenant.


I informed my CoC and CFHA today, and both are monitoring the situation
Could start sending her recruitment videos for every trade, each day. lol


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## GIJaneTechie (5 Jul 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> I informed my CoC and CFHA today, and both are monitoring the situation
> Could start sending her recruitment videos for every trade, each day. lol


thank you, btw for answering! I'm going away for training soon and these threads are helping🙂


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## GIJaneTechie (5 Jul 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> I informed my CoC and CFHA today, and both are monitoring the situation
> Could start sending her recruitment videos for every trade, each day. lol


thank you for the information, btw. appreciate it!


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## GIJaneTechie (5 Jul 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> SCWO = Squadron Chief Warrant Officer
> 
> Basically, engage your CoC.


thank you so much for answering!


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## Quirky (5 Jul 2021)

September 2nd? You are too lenient. I’d give her to the end of the month to GTFO.


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## SeaKingTacco (6 Jul 2021)

I am pretty sure that the issue is even simpler than everyone here is making this out to be.

RHUs are DND property, on a Defence Establishment. Civilians have no statutory “right” to be on DND property. Period.

I am no lawyer, but the MPs should be able to simply arrest the “tennant” for trespassing and remove that person to the property line.


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## Weinie (6 Jul 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I am pretty sure that the issue is even simpler than everyone here is making this out to be.
> 
> RHUs are DND property, on a Defence Establishment. Civilians have no statutory “right” to be on DND property. Period.
> 
> I am no lawyer, but the MPs should be able to simply arrest the “tennant” for trespassing and remove that person to the property line.


When the civvie is invited and enters a contract (rental) I think that trespass is OBE.


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## GIJaneTechie (6 Aug 2021)

Weinie said:


> When the civvie is invited and enters a contract (rental) I think that trespass is OBE.


Yes she was invited. Thank you for your advice! She's still threatening future legal action so preparing as much as possible, it will be mentioned to CFHA but


PuckChaser said:


> Squadron Chief Warrant Officer.
> 
> You need to get your chain of command involved and ask for their guidance/assistance, before this snowballs. She can threaten whatever she wants, but give her the print out of the link Zoomie posted, give her some reasonable time to pack her things and have a prearranged a time for the MPs to show up to escort her out. She has no legal right to military housing. If she wants some, give her the address to the Recruiting Center.  She can take you to small claims court (someone previously posted that), so if she digs her heels in then prepare for a fight.
> 
> You need to protect the PMQ, if she starts smashing walls and windows then you're on the hook for damages. CFHA doesn't care that she was a tenant.


She's been served with a legal letter which she accepted and agreed of a move date of September the 1st. However, the conversation I stepped into between her and her boyfriend, was she'll begin the move out in September and take until December. She was operating under the assumption, I would on training out of province so not physically here to enforce the legal letter and my absence, would allow her to move out when she wants to. (not going away to training until she's out) I am coming home to damage (minor drywall damage but still damage) The CoC has been informed, after September 1st, they will request an evication notice from the Base Commander but that could take months and months. The MP's apparently cannot help, unless I see her damaging the PMQ, her threatning to physically assault or physically assaulting . . . apparently, according to them, she can squat. Any other suggestions??????


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## Zoomie (6 Aug 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> Yes she was invited. Thank you for your advice! She's still threatening future legal action so preparing as much as possible, it will be mentioned to CFHA but
> 
> She's been served with a legal letter which she accepted and agreed of a move date of September the 1st. However, the conversation I stepped into between her and her boyfriend, was she'll begin the move out in September and take until December. She was operating under the assumption, I would on training out of province so not physically here to enforce the legal letter and my absence, would allow her to move out when she wants to. (not going away to training until she's out) I am coming home to damage (minor drywall damage but still damage) The CoC has been informed, after September 1st, they will request an evication notice from the Base Commander but that could take months and months. The MP's apparently cannot help, unless I see her damaging the PMQ, her threatning to physically assault or physically assaulting . . . apparently, according to them, she can squat. Any other suggestions??????


What base are you at?


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## SeaKingTacco (6 Aug 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> Yes she was invited. Thank you for your advice! She's still threatening future legal action so preparing as much as possible, it will be mentioned to CFHA but
> 
> She's been served with a legal letter which she accepted and agreed of a move date of September the 1st. However, the conversation I stepped into between her and her boyfriend, was she'll begin the move out in September and take until December. She was operating under the assumption, I would on training out of province so not physically here to enforce the legal letter and my absence, would allow her to move out when she wants to. (not going away to training until she's out) I am coming home to damage (minor drywall damage but still damage) The CoC has been informed, after September 1st, they will request an evication notice from the Base Commander but that could take months and months. The MP's apparently cannot help, unless I see her damaging the PMQ, her threatning to physically assault or physically assaulting . . . apparently, according to them, she can squat. Any other suggestions??????


None of this sounds correct, based on my experience in dealing with a similar situation.

Defence Controlled Access Area Regulations are pretty clear. Nobody has a “right” to be on DND property and an agreement by you to “sublet” a PMQ to a civilian does not over ride an Act of Parliament.

I, too, would be interested in knowing at what base this is occurring.


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Aug 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> None of this sounds correct, based on my experience in dealing with a similar situation.
> 
> Defence Controlled Access Area Regulations are pretty clear. Nobody has a “right” to be on DND property and an agreement by you to “sublet” a PMQ to a civilian does not over ride an Act of Parliament.
> 
> I, too, would be interested in knowing at what base this is occurring.



But the "letter of the law" is often trumped by the potential for poor public perception.  Would you want to be the BComd identified as intervening in a *civil dispute*?  And at what stage, if military authorities become involved, does the OP become an "administrative burden"?


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## SeaKingTacco (6 Aug 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> But the "letter of the law" is often trumped by the potential for poor public perception.  Would you want to be the BComd identified as intervening in a *civil dispute*?  And at what stage, if military authorities become involved, does the OP become an "administrative burden"?


The immediate issue for the BComd is not the sublet, but DCAARs.

A civilian has no statutory access rights to an RHU on DND property- full stop. A member of the CAF has no right to sublet their RHU. That “lease“ has no force in law. It is like you “leasing“ out your tank or LAV or CF-18- you cannot because it is not yours. It belongs to the Crown.

I am still at a loss as to why the BComd or equivalent does not deploy the MPs to remove the sub-tenant. As an aside, if I were the BComd, I would be discussing with CFHA evicting the OP for creating this mess in the first place.


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## Quirky (6 Aug 2021)

Time to get some buddies from work and make sure she is out September 1st, since it's obvious the MPs have better things to do than enforce trespassing on DND property. Do 32km/h in a 30 zone however, watch out.

I can't believe this is still dragging on this long.


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## GIJaneTechie (6 Aug 2021)

Zoomie said:


> What base are you at?


My CoC has been very supportive and everyone is doing what they can to assist, and understandly, we have to wait on whether or not, she complies (I've sp accepted and agreed to this letter so I need to adhere to it) but when I called the MP's giving an explanation, I was told unless I see her doing something illegal or threats/acts of physical violence, are occurring, they will be involved. According to them, landlord tenant laws apply to PMQ's and I would have contact Victoria PD. Kinda of "Best of Luck, Kid"
I'm trying to preserve annonmouity


Blackadder1916 said:


> But the "letter of the law" is often trumped by the potential for poor public perception.  Would you want to be the BComd identified as intervening in a *civil dispute*?


Re: Zoomie
My CoC are doing what is in their power, and I also have to adhere to this legal letter, so any further action has to wait until after but would like to be proactive (if A happens, what is B)


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## GIJaneTechie (6 Aug 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> The immediate issue for the BComd is not the sublet, but DCAARs.
> 
> A civilian has no statutory access rights to an RHU on DND property- full stop. A member of the CAF has no right to sublet their RHU. That “lease“ has no force in law. It is like you “leasing“ out your tank or LAV or CF-18- you cannot because it is not yours. It belongs to the Crown.
> 
> I am still at a loss as to why the BComd or equivalent does not deploy the MPs to remove the sub-tenant. As an aside, if I were the BComd, I would be discussing with CFHA evicting the OP for creating this mess in the first place.


You're allowed to rent rooms to non dependents and family members, as long as you're not profiting off of it or reside somewhere else, and then subletting the RHU to individuals. Also, as long as CFHA is aware of who your roommate is (had this information verified from DND references and confirmed by CFHA.) I had good faith that this individual would not cause a toxic home environment and also, respect the notice to vacant. So now, I could lose my housing? (Unless, I've completely misinterpreted your post)


SeaKingTacco said:


> The immediate issue for the BComd is not the sublet, but DCAARs.
> 
> A civilian has no statutory access rights to an RHU on DND property- full stop. A member of the CAF has no right to sublet their RHU. That “lease“ has no force in law. It is like you “leasing“ out your tank or LAV or CF-18- you cannot because it is not yours. It belongs to the Crown.
> 
> I am still at a loss as to why the BComd or equivalent does not deploy the MPs to remove the sub-tenant. As an aside, if I were the BComd, I would be discussing with CFHA evicting the OP for creating this mess in the


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## GIJaneTechie (6 Aug 2021)

Zoomie said:


> What base are you at?


My CoC has been very supportive and everyone is doing what they can to assist, and understandly, we have to wait on whether or not, she complies (I've sp accepted and agreed to this letter so I need to adhere to it) but when I called the MP's giving an explanation, I was told unless I see her doing something illegal or threats/acts of physical violence, are occurring, they will be involved. According to them, landlord tenant laws apply to PMQ's and I would have contact PD Kinda of "Best of Luck, Kid"


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Aug 2021)

GIJaneTechie said:


> . . .  when you mention, the OP as becoming an administrative burden, you're referring to the roommate?



No, I was referring to you.


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## GIJaneTechie (6 Aug 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> No, I was referring to you.


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## GIJaneTechie (6 Aug 2021)

Quirky said:


> Time to get some buddies from work and make sure she is out September 1st, since it's obvious the MPs have better things to do than enforce trespassing on DND property. Do 32km/h in a 30 zone however, watch out.
> 
> I can't believe this is still dragging on this long.


yeah, it's something else. 
thanks for the reply btw!


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## lenaitch (6 Aug 2021)

It seems the "toxic environment" the CFHA is using as a benchmark has already occurred.  The OP might want to forward the previous links to the the BC tenant legislation to the MPs, because if VPS is called, they might know better.


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## SeaKingTacco (6 Aug 2021)

lenaitch said:


> It seems the "toxic environment" the CFHA is using as a benchmark has already occurred.  The OP might want to forward the previous links to the the BC tenant legislation to the MPs, because if VPS is called, they might know better.


And, once again, the landlord/tennant of “whatever province” does not supersede an Act of  Parliament, namely DCAARs.


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## lenaitch (6 Aug 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> And, once again, the landlord/tennant of “whatever province” does not supersede an Act of  Parliament, namely DCAARs.


I think that's what I said (or intended to say).  The MPs are apparently brushing it off as a provincial LTA matter, and that if the OP ends up calling VicPS like the MPs directed, they probably know better.


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## CountDC (1 Oct 2021)

and the status is.........

my 2 cents - when the MPs say call if she does something illegal do it.   As of 1 Sep she is no longer invited on DND property so by being there she is doing something illegal.

I once had an issue that involved a neighbour calling local enforcement officers.  When I spoke to the officer he advised me that he was not actioning the complaint because 
1. It was obviously a frivolous complaint over a small item that was filed out of spite and anger that they didn't get their way; and
2. He didn't have the jurisdiction to do anything anyways as it was DND Federal Property.   They would have to go through PMQ/military channels with their complaint.


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## avn007 (24 Apr 2022)

How did this end?


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## PuckChaser (25 Apr 2022)

OP hasn't been back since August 2021.


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