# "Canadian lone soldier receives (Israeli) presidential citation"



## The Bread Guy (24 Apr 2015)

From the _Jerusalem Post_:


> A lone soldier originally from Canada who fought in last summer’s Operation Protective Edge was one of 120 who received a citation for excellence on Thursday from President Reuven Rivlin.
> 
> “J.,” whose name cannot be revealed due to the nature of his service, is a soldier in the Golani Brigade’s elite Egoz reconnaissance unit. He grew up in a Conservative home in Toronto, and was imbued with Zionist values from a young age. J. first came to Israel at age 13, to celebrate his bar mitzva atop Masada. He returned at 16 as part of March of the Living, a trip which he said strengthened his connection to Israel and his recognition of the need for a Jewish army.
> 
> During Operation Protective Edge, J. fought in Shejaia, in eastern Gaza City. His war experiences, he said, are what strengthened his feeling of an army unit as family ....


----------



## captloadie (24 Apr 2015)

This is not mean to be an antisemitic remark, merely an observation of a double standard.

Replace "Zionist" with "Fundamental Islamist", replace the trip to Israel for Bar Mitzva with Haj to Mecca, and instead of Israeli Army we put ISIL, PLO, Tamil Tigers, Hezbollah, etc. and he would be on a watchlist and likely arrested upon reentry to Canada.

Now, before I get piled on, let me state that I don't agree withthe politics or actions of either group. Forget that we label one side terrorists and the other not. I am stating that depending on which radicalized religion you follow, and the fighting organization you join, the repercussions differ. This individual could just as likely come back to Canada and ferment hate and action against peace loving Canadians who hold different religious/political beliefs.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Apr 2015)

captloadie said:
			
		

> This is not mean to be an antisemitic remark, merely an observation of a double standard.
> 
> Replace "Zionist" with "Fundamental Islamist", replace the trip to Israel for Bar Mitzva with Haj to Mecca, and instead of Israeli Army we put ISIL, PLO, Tamil Tigers, Hezbollah, etc. and he would be on a watchlist and likely arrested upon reentry to Canada.
> 
> Now, before I get piled on, let me state that I don't agree withthe politics or actions of either group. Forget that we label one side terrorists and the other not. I am stating that depending on which radicalized religion you follow, and the fighting organization you join, the repercussions differ. This individual could just as likely come back to Canada and ferment hate and action against peace loving Canadians who hold different religious/political beliefs.



Except, and correct me if I'm wrong, all Jews are citizens of Israel. In which case, he would be fighting, as a citizen, in the Israeli Army as a sworn member of that (his) country's military.

Dual citizenship is not a factor.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (24 Apr 2015)

Islam is not a nation but a religion and the Zionists/Israelis aren't planning on taking over the world and forcing everyone to act and dress like them.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Apr 2015)

captloadie said:
			
		

> This is not mean to be an antisemitic remark, merely an observation of a double standard.
> 
> Replace "Zionist" with "Fundamental Islamist", replace the trip to Israel for Bar Mitzva with Haj to Mecca, and instead of Israeli Army we put ISIL, PLO, Tamil Tigers, Hezbollah, etc. and he would be on a watchlist and likely arrested upon reentry to Canada.
> 
> Now, before I get piled on, let me state that I don't agree withthe politics or actions of either group. Forget that we label one side terrorists and the other not. I am stating that depending on which radicalized religion you follow, and the fighting organization you join, the repercussions differ. This individual could just as likely come back to Canada and ferment hate and action against peace loving Canadians who hold different religious/political beliefs.


Interestingly enough, a CBC reporter makes the same case ....


> Fighting for/ag #ISIS isnt only combat drawing youth to MidEast. Many more foreign recruits to #Israel, inc Cdn http://t.co/nNTIDYaUaB ****


** - links to _Ha'aretz_ article about foreign volunteers in the IDF
To take Colin P's point in a slightly different direction, I haven't heard of any threats made by Israel or the IDF, or even extremist Jews, to Canadians via videos highlighting butter-knife decapitations.  Have you?


----------



## captloadie (24 Apr 2015)

/tangent/
Okay, lets take religious affiliation out of the equation and look at the issue of fighting for another nation. What do we do with a Canadian who decides to go fight with a recognized force that is combatting against our supported side. For example, what if an ethnic Russian Canadian decides to go fight with the Russian Forces in the Ukraine? What if heaven forbid he were involved in combat against either our allies, or our advisors? 

/end tangent/


----------



## George Wallace (24 Apr 2015)

captloadie said:
			
		

> /tangent/
> Okay, lets take religious affiliation out of the equation and look at the issue of fighting for another nation. What do we do with a Canadian who decides to go fight with a recognized force that is combatting against our supported side. For example, what if an ethnic Russian Canadian decides to go fight with the Russian Forces in the Ukraine? What if heaven forbid he were involved in combat against either our allies, or our advisors?
> 
> /end tangent/



Well......Years ago, we did not send Canadians to Cyprus who were of Greek or Turkish decent, as there was the possibility that they could be conscripted into those nations forces.  That was a common practice among many nations, and probably still may be.  Would that not be the same thing as what you are stating, except that these Canadians did not have a choice, vice having done so of their own free will?


----------



## YZT580 (24 Apr 2015)

What if...those two words will drive you nuts.  Every Canadian in WW1 was fighting for another country and many of them were of German descent yet fighting for the British Empire.  Canadians fought on both sides in Spain in the 30's.  The answer to 'what if' is only determined in retrospect and hero or villain is decided in the same manner.  Witness Benedict Arnold.  In England he was a hero in America, the British loss made him a traitor.  

The chap in question chose to emigrate to  one of our allies.  He believed that their standards were worth dying for and so he joined their military.  He was/is committed to the same moral standards as ourselves and believes in the same standards of justice, government and freedoms.  Good for him.  

On the other hand, a person who choses to emigrate to a land that disagrees with everything we stand for is de facto declaring war on us.  Whilst he may be a hero to the land to which he vows allegiance, to me he is the same as Benedict Arnold was to the Americans.  End of comments.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2015)

captloadie said:
			
		

> /tangent/
> Okay, lets take religious affiliation out of the equation and look at the issue of fighting for another nation. What do we do with a Canadian who decides to go fight with a recognized force that is combatting against our supported side. For example, what if an ethnic Russian Canadian decides to go fight with the Russian Forces in the Ukraine? What if heaven forbid he were involved in combat against either our allies, or our advisors?
> 
> /end tangent/



I 'fought' for the British Army. I am Canadian (cue beer commercial).

It was amusing to watch the look on our (LOB) Canadian Exchange Officer's face as I blew kisses to him as I got on the plane on my way to Belfast to try to kill bad guys who were killing and terrorizing British citizens and who were, at the very least, tacitly supported by an Irish Canadian Prime Minister and an Irish US President.


----------



## captloadie (24 Apr 2015)

I think if you knowingly travel to a nation that could conscript you during a time of conflict, that is the same as voluntarily choosing to fight.

The point I'm wondering about is how do we treat individuals who return to Canada after fighting with another force. I think historically we have been rather blase about the issue, unless there were known "crimes against humanity" or "war crimes" involved. For instance, are there barriers for Argentinians who fought in the Falklands? Vietnamese who fought with the Viet Cong? Irish who had IRA links? Did we care or track anyone who left the country to fight in these conflicts and then returned? Are today's terrorists tomorrow's revered freedom fighters? I doubt it but who knows.

The point I am trying to put forward for debate is should Canadians who are not in the CAF, be allowed to return to Canada if they engage in combat operations outside of Canada, regardless of what side they are fighting for?


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Apr 2015)

captloadie said:
			
		

> The point I am trying to put forward for debate is should Canadians who are not in the CAF, be allowed to return to Canada if they engage in combat operations outside of Canada, regardless of what side they are fighting for?


I think the question asked these days is, "should someone who could cause harm to Canada and/or Canadians be allowed to return after fighting somewhere else for someone else?"  
Using that formula, I'm OK with someone serving with the IDF or any European army, but not so OK with someone serving with a group who's reps/supporters pretty clearly want to kill Canadians.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (24 Apr 2015)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> The chap in question chose to emigrate to  one of our allies.  . . . . .



Generally, I could not care less about this un-named Canadian who apparently has distinguished himself in the military service of another country.  He wasn't the first (google Ben Dunkleman or Buzz Beurling - though the latter didn't exactly get there), nor will he be the last.  Should he return to Canada, either to visit family or re-establish residency, it is unlikely that he will create problems.  Maybe it's my pedantic nature coming to the surface, however, I do take exception at the description of Israel as "one of our allies".  Does Canada currently have friendly relations with Israel - of course we do and through most of our mutual history relations have generally been favourable.  But the use of the term "ally" suggests a greater degree of (usually defence related) cooperation.

We have a number of longstanding formal military allies - the NATO member countries immediately come to mind.  Some of them, now, were our opposition during the Cold War.  Israel is not in that alliance.  We have a few security cooperation and information sharing partnerships that "could" be viewed as alliances but there is no mutual defence component though there is overlap (e.g. Fives Eyes, ABCA) - again Israel is not there.  In the past few decades, Canada has participated in a number of military combat operations that included a variety of other nations and organizations (some that would raise eyebrows).  Participants in those coalitions could conceivably be viewed as allies, albeit temporarily.  Israel was not among them.

Thus, Israel is not an "ally".


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Apr 2015)

and she is certainly not an enemy. Considering Canada was one of the first to recognize the fledgling nation I would say that Israel is a friend and occasional business partner. It may twist some panties in a knot but I don't mind and in fact encourage Canadians to do service in certain countries and groups. In fact publish a list of acceptable countries/groups to serve with.


----------

