# winter indoc 2005 in extreme cold weather.



## Jonny Boy (22 Feb 2005)

i just went on a winter indoct this weekend. our corp took about 30 cadets to a place called sundridge. it is about 3 hours north of toronto. our cadets went through some very educational training and learned allot from the exercise. we woke up on the first morning and took down the tents and loaded our toboggans. when we were done that all thew cadets went on a hike with snowshoes and there toboggans. they set the tents up twice that day. once in the day and once in the night.

the only bad thing about the weekend was that allot of cadets were bored. my rsm had planed a whole night nav and a whole weekend that would allow the cadets to learn and have fun to. unfortunately the CO of the corp had changed some of the things and at the end of the day the officers had a vote and decided not to have the night nav because It was to cold.

the second night we were there was very cold. i had fire picket at 5 in the morning and when i got up my hands were exposed for like 5 minutes and they were already frozen and loosing feeling. i think it reached 
- 35 degrees Celsius. it really gave thecadets a taste of real winter survival. 

it was an awsome weekend and i was wondering if any of your corps have done a winter indoct and how it went.

 :warstory:  :cam:


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (22 Feb 2005)

199 st.vital air cadetin conjuction with 176 boeing of canada went out to fisher Branch for winter survival. It was educational and all but there was a real rift between the "Doers" and the "sit beside the fire and complainers". Leading to what could have turned into a bad situation but... everything turned out fine. We ate a rabbit and made bannock and since this is the most senoir course it is to be my last untill I'm a SI.  we got quite the taste of a real Canadain winter and I would like to thank the Fisher Branch Air Cadet Squadron for the use of there land and cabin.


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## purple peguin (22 Feb 2005)

3036 e.m.e went on an exercise last year in January?, It was at MC Donald's beach near Shear water Halifax. It was probably minus 15 when we went out at night and the snow was knee deep, but by the second day - Saturday the temp. was -40. I was a young cadet and dint no better but not having the proper gear i wore combats- yes i had jacket leather mitts, but i was very cold and ended up not feeling good either so i called home and someone came to pick me up. That time most cadets were leaving to but when i got home i found out via other cadets that the ex. had been cancelled because of the cold! Some leasons where learned from that. ( me especially) Ahhhhh the great Nova Scotian winters


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## Franko (22 Feb 2005)

It's good to see that your corps is getting you guys and gals out and get a feel for Winter Indoctrination, not Winter Survival / Warfare.

There are a few differences......

Winter Indoctrination:

1. introduction to winter living (using acronym C.O.L.D., setting up tents, learning to use stoves etc.)
2. introduction to moving camp, establishing camp
3. introduction to camp/ tent routine.
4. Introduction to improvised shelters

Winter Survival:

1. Living in improvised shelters for extended periods (5 days or more)
2. Hunting and living off the land(taught by Rangers)
3. Using improvised signaling devices etc.

Winter Warfare:

1. Living in arctic tents for more than 5 days(establishing tent/camp routine, re-establish camp when situation req)
2. preparing snow defences and manning them for extensive periods
3. Mounting offensive operations in arctic conditions (Recce patrols, adv to contact etc.)
4. Use of vehicles during offensive/ defensive ops.

As you can see, there is a BIG difference. 

Most of our training is conducted in weather that...well....is a wee bit colder than what you'd find 3 hours north of TO or outside of Halifax (-40 C.....right, sure it was purple penguin. Lucky if it got below -20 C methinks)

I was posted to Gagetown a few years back, and took out the affiliated corps one weekend for Winter Indoc....

A freak cold snap hit and with the wind chill it hit -57 C.....so we moved back to hard stand, just for safety's sake.

Our last ex was held 4 hours north of North Bay....   

it was cold but very bearable  

Regards


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## purple peguin (22 Feb 2005)

it was very cold -40 with windchill, even schools where cancled due to the cold.


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## my72jeep (22 Feb 2005)

NOA Det. did a winter trip to Moossene and James bay 3 years ago the warmist it got was -35 the cadets had a blast but they really did learn about the cold.


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## Jonny Boy (23 Feb 2005)

i know we were only 3 hours north of toronto, that was as far as our cadet corp could go. it still reached     
-35.  i knoiw that that is still pretty cold. i dont think anyone should be compeating on who has camped in the coldest weather becouse that is not important. what is important is that the cadets got a chance to camp in the winter time in cold weather.

i know that i used to live in the area we camped in and there was one whole month that it never got warmer than - 30 and one day it droped down to -60. it doesnt really matter how far north you go. once you reach the near north part of ontario it can go down to - 60


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## qjdb (2 Mar 2005)

My unit, 1725 RCACC, just this last weekend, went to Cambie Creek in Manning Park.

There were several things that we learnt, and this was my first cold weather indoc experiance, but I think that it went really well.   We did the 2.5 km loop on snowshoes, we did a winter night op (that was fun  ), we did some 'snow play', and we played snow soccer.   Like someone else said, it is just a familiarization with cold weather, not anything else.

1.   If it is going to be freezing at night, but above freezing during the day (-7ish to +10ish), make sure that the cadets and staff have more than just hiking boots.   Make sure that they have mukluks as well.   The boots were great during the day, but they got wet and muddy, then when the sun went down, it didn't matter how many pairs of socks they had, they had cold feet.   I wore my combat boots until i went to bed, then in the morning, I put on my Sorels, and left them on until it thawed out around 1100 hrs.   (By the way, Black Sorels with purple trim look HORRIBLE with Cadpat  )

2.   Ensure that everyone has waterproof / resistant gloves.   We just checked for gloves, not the type or style.

3.   Get adult staff to do the kit check, and do it the Parade night before, and if there is room, store their gear at the cadet hall.   That way, if there is something missing, they have several days to bring it, instead of Saturday morning, 15 minutes before the bus leaves.

4.   Make sure everyone drinks lots of water.   You don't think of it when you are in the cold as much as you do when you are in the heat, but you can dehydrate just as quickly in the cold, if not quicker, as the air is drier.

As a unit where we don't really get a lot of cold, most of our kids don't have any idea of what cold really is, and as such, they don't usually have the appropriate gear.   They have a jacket that'll do them for walking around in for a couple hours, but not for spending two days out in the cold.

In our after action report, I sent all these point to my TrgO, so hopefully we will utilize these for the next time.

But, we all had a blast, and now I am really looking forward to maybe taking the Winter Indoc Course (at Vernon) next year, so that I will have a better idea of what to expect.

And just a question?   Is it almost easier to do Cold Weather stuff when it is really cold, like -20 or so?   As in, the gear doesn't get wet, so you don't feel as cold?   I have never done that with cadets, but I know that cross-country skiing is almost easier when you don't have to worry about getting wet.   We had a Reserve Cpl there who used to live on the Praries, and said that he used to go Winter Camping all the time, but that it was easier there, as the weather was just drier.   Does that sound right?   I have lived my whole life in the Vancouver / Fraser Valley area, so have never really experienced the Prarie winter thing.   (In fact, right now, my allergies are already kicking up from all the flowers blooming.   Sorry to the rest of you non-Fraser-Valleyites.   I have attached some thing to remind you of what summer looks like.)

Q


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## condor888000 (2 Mar 2005)

The whole colder is better thing can be true, but not always. The colder it is the drier it is so the whole getting wet and it freezing thing isn't that bad. You need warmer kit though since the wind can still be up and that's what'll get you everytime. No matter how cold it is, you can be fine. If the wind kicks up, you can get hypothermia when you were sweating before. Also frost bite can occur quicker. -40 with chill it can happen in a matter of minutes. It all depends what you're used to. I can take low temps with little clothing and be fine. That's a good thing too because a lot of cadets don't bring all they should. I've given my jacket out before so the cadet wouldn't freeze. I pulled on a few sweaters really fast though... Most people have a harder time though and need more and warmer kit.


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## purple peguin (2 Mar 2005)

3036 eme has one comming up this weekend, we are going to be doing cam and concealment, snow shoeing, shelter building and the fun things like snow ball fights and snow man building competitions. We are going this Friday to Aldershot should be a blast!


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## q_1966 (4 Mar 2005)

Our Corps (1787) recently went up to Revelstoke (Multi Corps Excercise) and had our indoc up their,
we were just slightly north of the Revelstoke Dam and great view of the Dam, from where we were,

appart from that
its so much nicer to make snow shelters, when theirs 
A. enough snow; and
B. weather cold enough to make the snow firm, making it easier to build snow shelters,
and having about 1ft. and a half to 2ft. of already hard pack snow helps as well 

as oppose to our DND property, fairly mild, not alot of snow, Salmon Arm


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## medic65726 (8 Mar 2005)

During my time in cadets I attended several winter Indoctrination Exercises. On one I recall (although it was over 10 years ago) the temperatures were lower than had been anticipated and we sought out hard shacks to sleep in. At the time I felt that the officers were spoiling the fun we'd been having, but I now feel the appropriate decsions were made. The purpose of the training is for indoctriation, and that serious dangers and risks should be controlled. It is reprehensible if preventable injuries are sustained during cadet training.
Semi-annually my service conducts a winter air-crew survival refresher course (as well as underwater escape training). The purpose of the training is to minimize risks if we end up in a survival situation, by training us to survive. So, when I was working in Moosonee, and we held our survival course, the overnight portion was cancelled as we had night time lows of -43 Celsius and with the windchill it was close to -60. We figured there was no point in people getting hypothermia or frostbite, just to say they spent the night out in those temperatures. We built our improvised shelters, lit cooking and signal fires, fired off some flares, and went back to the hangar. Was my experienced any less, maybe a little, but I don't need to loose fingers or toes to frosbite to learn about winter survival.

Simon Martin


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## ouyin2000 (9 Mar 2005)

i was lucky enough to be part of the Vancouver Island Zone Winter Indoc weekend on Mt Washington.

basically we went up on the mountain, snowshoed to out destination, set up camp, and learned a heck of a lot about keeping yourself alive in the snow and cold

although there wasn't enough snow to build our own improvised shelters, we still learned a lot

the whole story can be found here http://www.cadets.net/pac/armcad/doc/Cadets -6.pdf


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## badpup (10 Mar 2005)

Papke said:
			
		

> Our Corps (1787) recently went up to Revelstoke (Multi Corps Excercise) and had our indoc up their,
> we were just slightly north of the Revelstoke Dam and great view of the Dam, from where we were,
> 
> appart from that
> ...



Glad you enjoyed our little Indoc Sgt Papke, unfortunately this was a terrible snow pack year in Revelstoke, and the wind was a bit unbearable at times.
As it has been alluded to in other posts on this thread that PREPARATION, and PROPER KIT are paramount in importance.

Snow shelters I admit were a bit difficult due to conditions that nature provided, however my  improvising by using the windrow made by a loader for the snow cave was effective was it not?

figured out who I am yet Sgt?
take care, and come play again some time.


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## Kiltmann (17 Mar 2005)

My corps (3125 Highlanders) and our partner corps (2509 Signals) attempted winter indoc training at Camp Howard on Superbowl weekend (Feb. 4-6). We departed our HQ, Chestermere Rec. Ctr., at 1745-1750. It took us about an hour and a half to get to our rest stop in Cochrane. Almost everyone disembarked for a 20 min. break. One of our officers received a call from the other corps CO. The road to the camp was snowed over, so we turned around . You could hear the disappointment from our RSM, the platoon leaders and everyone else. Even our DCO was a little disappointed, seeing is that we had so much planned :-\.

That's my $0.02


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## elscotto937 (20 Mar 2005)

Q, Good suggestions for a winter indoc event, but I have a question: Can proper equipment for the Cadets not be drawn from stores(affilited unit, etc.)? Canadian Issued Cold Weather Clothing is excellent for everything from -10 to -50 (even the old stuff). Then the Cadets are told specifically what to wear, i.e if you are too cold, they are too cold, if you are sweating they are sweating. Franko can probably attest to the problems of taking young troopers up for Polar Bear, young soldiers like cadets must have thier actions/clothing/equipment dictated for them in cold weather ops and a requirement of that is that standardization of pers kit. 

Second comment, who said thier officers voted on whether to conduct night nav or not, not a big point.... but who votes for decisions in the military, if that was the case I would never have to leave my office.

Finally, winter indoc training is one of the best leadership training tools that the Cadet program has, try to exploit it .


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## MCpl ??????? (20 Mar 2005)

i learned that it isn't a good idea to wear CADPAT in the extremely cold weather, it isn't insulated, only 2 of us wore it, big mistake


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## 1913_kicks_ass (20 Mar 2005)

1913 Oshawa Army Cadets went on a winter indoc in february to CFTC Borden ... man was that cold!! But we learned a great deal and by the end of the weekend we had learned to adapt to the cold and have fun!! It was great and i can't wait for our next Garrison!!

 41 Port Perry + 76 Unxbridge + 2525 Pickering + 1913 Oshawa = BEST GARRISON'S EVER!!!! 

 xox latah every1 xox 

-1913 trooper!!-


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## david124124 (1 May 2005)

Those cadpat combats were pretty warm eh jackson! Next time i wear something under them  :sniper:


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## Burrows (1 May 2005)

CADPAT or OD youre still going to freeze.

Now here is where cadets say "OMGZZZZ!!! You have da cadpats?!!!!!!!!11!!!1/two"

And the RegF and PRes people say "You don't need CADPAT" <- I side here
If you have CADPAT or OD's theres no need to specify. a milimetre of thickness doesnt make much of a difference.  Good day.


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## Jonny Boy (1 May 2005)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> CADPAT or OD youre still going to freeze.
> 
> Now here is where cadets say "OMGZZZZ!!! You have da cadpats?!!!!!!!!11!!!1/two"
> 
> ...




well said. i think cadpat dry's faster. which is always good when you are out in the winter and get wet.


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## q_1966 (2 May 2005)

: please dont get into another Cadpat versus OD debate again


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## Jonny Boy (2 May 2005)

we arnt. it is like burrows said. a millimeter of cloth wont keep you worn when in the winter.


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## chrisf (2 May 2005)

For reference purposes, if somehow you were to come into ownership of the full IECS or ICE gear, combats are not intended for wear, period, in cold weather ops. They trap moisture, and will make you cold.

As far as clothing in the cold goes, the best way to decide what to wear is experience. Unfortunately, the only way to get experience is to go out in the cold... it's a bit of a catch 22...


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## Jonny Boy (2 May 2005)

i have invested a good some of money into winter clothing for winter camping. i have a parka which was like 150.00 and i also have some of those fleece clothing. they are amazing.


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