# 16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military



## George Wallace (12 Aug 2013)

Article Link: Number of people living on Toronto streets increases: Survey 
Military veterans make up 16%



> Number of people living on Toronto streets increases: Survey
> 
> Military veterans make up 16%
> By Don Peat	,City Hall Bureau Chief
> ...


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## PAdm (12 Aug 2013)

My knee jerk thought was some sort of mental health correlation (would obviously need to be studied), but a second thought is the CAF is rules based and living rough is freedom. Could it be a choice??  Lord knows we are used to some periodic discomfort. That said, spending e.g. A year in the CAF 10 years ago is really not relevant to the story. You could substitute Catholic or divorced or whatever to get a stat. I believe the aboriginal and gay stats are more of a shocking angle/stat.


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## McG (12 Aug 2013)

"Why" is a key question.  I have lost count of the number of untrained privates who, through only their own stupid choices, found themselves removed from the CAF for sloth and/or misconduct, and without a place to live (mom & dad sure didn't want to see some of them back either).  The lack of information will lead some to conclude this percentage is the fault of neglect to look after veterans.  A significant portion may be just that - but we cannot know with the data collected.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Aug 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> "Why" is a key question.  I have lost count of the number of untrained privates who, through only their own stupid choices, found themselves removed from the CAF for sloth and/or misconduct, and without a place to live (mom & dad sure didn't want to see some of them back either).  The lack of information will lead some to conclude this percentage is the fault of neglect to look after veterans.  A significant portion may be just that - but we cannot know with the data collected.



I wonder how many of those surveyed simply lied about their service.


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## JesseWZ (12 Aug 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I wonder how many of those surveyed simply lied about their service.



Perhaps it is cynical, but that was my first thought as well. Often people "claim" service in order to elicit sympathy and therefore handouts from passers-by.


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## tomahawk6 (12 Aug 2013)

How many kids are living on the streets ?


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## Danjanou (12 Aug 2013)

A couple of points on this article. One I've noted (and those who know me can confirm I'm a bit of an SME on this) that often reports like this tend to overestimate or present the worst case scenario. Remember their funding is often based on this and more homeless equals more dollars. No one wants to submit a report that says "we've ended the homeless situation, so I guess that means we're all unemployed" now do they.

Remember the late Jack Layton made quite a bit of a rep for himself out of the housing crisis.  If we used the numbers he continually floated as a Toronto City Councilor, one would have literally been tripping over a homeless person on the sidewalk every couple of feet on every side walk in the GTA not just the downtown core.

To be honest though counting the homeless is akin to herding cats. They really don't like to be counted, and how does one prevent counting the same person two or three times when conducting these street assessment censuses anyway. It's not like they stand still all night/day. I know of one who admitted being counted three of four times, because each time he was asked the questions by a clip board bearing volunteer he was given a gift card for pizza. 

Re possible some of them just claiming to be veterans, more than likely that is the case. I bumped into one in the theatre district one evening panhandling with his sign claiming to be a veteran. Some pointed questioning by me in a loud enough voice to draw attention to potential donors soon proved him to be a poser walt.  A study came out in the UK suggesting that  25% of London's hard core homeless were Veterans and was later disproven. Volunteers went out with laptops with a data base of questions a Veteran would be able to answer regardless of when or where they served including service numbers. Surprisingly many so called self identified vets couldn't answer these basic questions. 

Even if the numbers are slightly skewed, they are telling. Using the numbers given there could be as many as 800+/- homeless vets in the Toronto area and that number is unacceptable. It is also about double the numbers VAC and The RCL with their Leave the Streets Behind Program are reluctantly admitting to.

Whether the individual served a year or so and as suggested was released as suggested, or served honorably for his his/her full term of service should not matter in the slightest though. We've accepted that there is "One Veteran" and therefore one homeless vet is one too many. 

Both VAC and the RCL are failing in addressing this issue despite their publically saying so to the contrary. I'm sorry but having the RCL in Toronto announce that they managed to house a dozen or so vets in a year and claim this as a success is a farce. Other groups such as First Nations, the LGBT communities have active programs to find and help "their" homeless  and work with Municipal and Provincial Agencies and with each other to coordinate their efforts. At present the "Veterans" community has failed to do this in any tangible manner


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## Cbbmtt (12 Aug 2013)

I would think that a majority of the percentage are heavy into addiction. I don't think the percentage is a valid strike at the forces.

Example; John Smith joined the forces in his 20's, left when he was 28. At age 50 he lost his job and ended up on the street. This guy would say he was in the forces, but has nothing to do with why he's on the street.

I'm thinking more of a study should be done on the percentage they came up with and focused on "when" they were in the forces, and "why" they were on the street. Whether it be addiction, loss of jobs, choice etc...


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## upandatom (12 Aug 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> I would think that a majority of the percentage are heavy into addiction. I don't think the percentage is a valid strike at the forces.
> 
> Example; John Smith joined the forces in his 20's, left when he was 28. At age 50 he lost his job and ended up on the street. This guy would say he was in the forces, but has nothing to do with why he's on the street.
> 
> I'm thinking more of a study should be done on the percentage they came up with and focused on "when" they were in the forces, and "why" they were on the street. Whether it be addiction, loss of jobs, choice etc...



I still think we should have a good hard look at how we look after our own sometimes. It is starting to get better. but yes, agreed, sometimes certain portions of stories are left out, AGREED


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## Danjanou (12 Aug 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> I would think that a majority of the percentage are heavy into addiction. I don't think the percentage is a valid strike at the forces.
> 
> Example; John Smith joined the forces in his 20's, left when he was 28. At age 50 he lost his job and ended up on the street. This guy would say he was in the forces, but has nothing to do with why he's on the street.
> 
> I'm thinking more of a study should be done on the percentage they came up with and focused on "when" they were in the forces, and "why" they were on the street. Whether it be addiction, loss of jobs, choice etc...



I concur many cases it could be argued there is probably no correlation between their service and their present situation. Ironically that would preclude many of them from qualifying for financial or other assistance from VAC under the NVC as their present circumstances are not directly a result of their service.

Here's and interesting stat:

" But research with Canadian homeless veterans shows a whole different picture.
“For a lot of them it was from drinking, which started in the military, escalated over time and 10 years later you would see the alcoholism, and through that they would lose their job, their relationships, their housing,” Ray says.
Surprisingly, none of the veterans had been deployed overseas; so their current plight wasn't caused by deployment trauma or PTSD. With the exception of a couple who had experience in peacekeeping missions, the bulk of the veterans in the study all served on bases in Canada."

http://www.uwo.ca/fhs/hsm/veterans.html

The argument is a lot of those on the street now are the proverbial "Cold War" era Vets. Does that mean we'll see a spike in numbers down the road with the Bosnia , Kosovo, Afghanistan era vets? That's a chilling thought.


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## FormerHorseGuard (12 Aug 2013)

I think it is time to re think how we manage the money  that is given, taken or spent on looking after the homeless in Canada.
Federal Government gives X number of dollars to various groups to look after the street or homeless persons.
Group A,Group B both get a budget and pay  a staff to do the job and they have person who donate their time and resources to help.

Homeless Guy goes to Group A and is helped out on Monday, but he goes back on Tuesday and there is no room and bed space for him , Group A counts him as some one they tried to help on Tuesday and Monday. Homeless guy tries Group B and finds some space and a meal. They count him as some they tried to help out and helped.  So for Tuesday this homeless guy is counted twice. But he is only one man. 
Both Groups use this man to help show their stats to get more money  next fiscal year. How many times a day  does this happen, and inflate the numbers and stats of homeless people wanting or trying to get help.

How many  groups count the same guy over and over?

If there was really was 7000 homeless people in Ottawa as they  state on this website ( http://www.ottawainnercityministries.ca/about/poverty-homelessness/)

How much money is lost in staffing costs? Or lost to mis used funds like helping a scrammer?
I think if they had one group funded to help everyone who sought help and one chain of command to track the money it would be better spent. 
One study I read looking for facts to back up my thoughts here said it cost social programs 55 000 dollars to look after one person everyday and it would only cost 37 000 dollars a year to feed and house the same person in the private sector. ( http://metronews.ca/news/vancouver/381819/b-c-could-learn-from-alberta-how-to-save-on-costs-of-homelessness-expert/)
Money is not the answer and blaming the military for a few lost souls is not the answer,
Some of these people would rather be on the street living the Nomad life style and just getting by than having a nice fully funded life. I think everyone shares the blame and certainly is sharing the costs.
Lots of studies no action taken


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## s2184 (13 Aug 2013)

Whatever reasons or whatever backgrounds, 16% is really significant. But, how we know if the survey was correctly planned & executed? This news items just puzzles me.


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## Danjanou (13 Aug 2013)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> …..Homeless Guy goes to Group A and is helped out on Monday, but he goes back on Tuesday and there is no room and bed space for him , Group A counts him as some one they tried to help on Tuesday and Monday. Homeless guy tries Group B and finds some space and a meal. They count him as some they tried to help out and helped.  So for Tuesday this homeless guy is counted twice. But he is only one man.
> Both Groups use this man to help show their stats to get more money  next fiscal year. How many times a day  does this happen, and inflate the numbers and stats of homeless people wanting or trying to get help.
> 
> How many  groups count the same guy over and over?



Congratulations you've just learned how to play the poverty game in Canada. You can use the above to obtain, money, (lots of tax payer funded grants etc.) and/or political capital.

Now remember though to actually ensure long term success, you have to follow a few simple basics.

1-	Only you and your group can solve this situation and therefore should receive all the funding, attention, accolades ( the other groups are after all competiton, although a few select few groups who also understand the "system" are useful allies and allow you to shuffle the homeless around in a form of shell game.) 
2-	Continually harp to the media on a) how serious this issue is /has become and b) what a fantastic job you're doing at it … if only you had more money, resources etc.
3-	Most importantly ensure you actually don't solve the problem. If you accidentally end up housing all the homeless/eliminate poverty well then you're out of a job and Barista at Starbucks really doesn't pay as well.  Don't worry about anyone criticizing any actual lack of progress, they can be branded as homophobic, racist, chauvinistic, Harper/Harris/Ford pro oil neo con one per centers. ( delete/add adjectives as needed)



			
				s2184 said:
			
		

> Whatever reasons or whatever backgrounds, 16% is really significant. But, how we know if the survey was correctly planned & executed? This news items just puzzles me.



See above. The RCL/VAC numbers are quoted at 300-400, this survey says 800 +/- , the real number is probably somewhere in the middle say 600 +/- which means we have the equivalent of an infantry battalion sleeping under bridges or in shelters tonight.

Sorry too many years at the coal face of this and being subjected daily to the political correct gumdrop trees and unicorn farts holistic attitude of those nominally in charge tends to make one a tad cynical.


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## upandatom (14 Aug 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I concur many cases it could be argued there is probably no correlation between their service and their present situation. Ironically that would preclude many of them from qualifying for financial or other assistance from VAC under the NVC as their present circumstances are not directly a result of their service.
> 
> Here and interesting stat:
> 
> ...



The Afghan, Kosovo, Bosnia number seems a extremely Scary due to that being such a long extended period, along with the sheer amount of pers that were deployed, and repeatedly. 

Especially considering last night I had just read that article in the Vancouver newspapers about an MWO or CWO retiring because JPSUs are apparently a CF version of Starbucks and how alot of soldiers are not getting the help they need and regardless of how many times he asked for help he wasnt given any. Im sure there are two sides to this story, I know with my issues, I was able to get help, took about a year to finally see someone  (in a large city). However in larger bases ie pet, gagetown, in smaller and less dense population areas I can see how getting help would be an issue due to lack of physical resources(presuming the soldier says "i need help", which is the hardest part). you cant fix everything by throwing money at it.


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## Danjanou (14 Aug 2013)

There is a hope that we won't see a major hike amongst the Bosnia Kosovo, Afghanistan vets due to the fact that there are procedures in place now like the JPSU flawed as they may be. No such systems existed a generation ago and if you had issues or problems the prevailing response was "go suck it up buttercup" which more or less meant you didn't go seek help.

Ironically the very attributes that make someone a good Soldier (Sailor, Airmen) such as mental and physical toughness, self confidence, independence etc  often make for a lousy homeless person. At least in the sense they're harder to treat, deal with. They're more likely to not come and ask for help. Sleeping rough, being hungry wet, cold, hey been there done that, and can do it again if I have to mindset.

Especially if they see that what's the point of asking for something I probably won't get anyway. As you said there are issues coming forth with the system, like JPSU, or the fact we have Vets forced to sue the Government as seen on the news, or read the horror stories here and elsewhere on line of people trying to navigate through the byzantine maze of indifference that is Veterans Affairs Canada.

For someone literally out of options he may simply say frig I'll just sit here on a street corner rather than put myself through that.


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## heavy reader (18 Sep 2013)

Read on to find out how you can help:

http://vetscanada.org/

V.E.T.S. is a volunteer-led apolitical nonprofit corporation centralized in Nova Scotia. We aim to provide aid and comfort to Canadian veterans that are at risk. We are seeking to achieve this aim by:

Identifying Canadian veterans who are in difficult circumstances while awaiting support from Veterans Affairs Canada.
Assembling a complete list of all government agencies and non-profit resources that could provide assistance to veterans related to their housing, health and legal needs.
Pursuing the development of appropriate shelter for homeless veterans to act as a referral service or bridge, assisting veterans to access appropriate supports and services .
Monitoring the legislative changes relevant to the situation of these veterans in order to provide them the most up-to-date information.
Seeking charitable status in order to maximize fundraising for effective pursuit of the society’s goals .
To do this we need your support. We are in the very early stages of development but we need your assistance. If you are interested in volunteering, please visit our support page here.


Note they also have an app for your iphone to locate Veterans in need and relay this info to local volunteers.  http://vetscanada.org/exciting-news/

BZ to VETS for actually stepping up to help our brothers and sisters.


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## pbi (21 Sep 2013)

I'm a member of the Volunteer Patricia Program. This is an effort by the Regiment (both serving and Associate members) to provide a safety net for members of the Regimental family  who fall through the cracks in the system, or who may not even know where to begin to get help. You can find out more at: http://vpp.ppcliassoc.ca/

I've been involved in only one case so far, but what I found was that in fact there are quite a few agencies and groups out there willing to help, well beyond just VAC that everybody slams. The problem (IMHO) seems to be pulling all the various well-intentioned organizations together in each particular case. 

I found that the people I dealt with in this individual's case  had a lot of good will and a true desire to help (including, by the way, the VAC case officer). In the end the individual refused to be helped, but very clearly the players are all still there if the person changes their mind.

We aren't experts, only volunteers, but every little bit of help is good.


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## armyca08 (12 Oct 2013)

It is fairly obvious the root cause of homelessness is not having a home, high property taxes, rental costs etc..

They don't have money. It is really that simple. 


Camping out is actually great in good weather.

It is really only when the issue of exposure comes that there is a problem, that and the fact 99% of land is privatized and not open to public camping.

It is however legal to set up a camp site on crown land for up to 21 days before moving to another site.

Homelessness is not an issue, the problem is poverty and not having adequette shelter.

The other factor is, solidiers probably don't see it as rough compared to having a house on your back and being shot at.

If people are joining for a sense of purpose, on leaving they may either be disillusioned and without a sense of purpose.  

Simply put a rough life is not foreign to a solider. When people conquer their physical worlds it can be largely compared to a psychosis, being detached from the physical nature that other softer people would be more in tune with.   It is largely about what your experiences are.  

However there was the valid point raisesd that these individuals arn't showing ID prooving their service record, so it remains to be credible information. 


I know one person who claimed to be a vet who also claimed to be somewhat homeless, and unemployed due to injury, wouldn't accept welfare because he didn't agree with it. He'd rather just rough it out, even though veterans affairs recommended he go on welfare.

He was one of the guys who took a lump sum, which after a number of years dried up and he was still unemployed.  It is really a matter of standards he views welfare as contemptuous but is still not employed and so essentially destitute, so the story goes.


http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/department/facts-fait/lump-sum  -- then what?


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## CombatDoc (12 Oct 2013)

army08 said:
			
		

> Homelessness is not an issue, the problem is poverty and not having adequette (sic) shelter.
> 
> The other factor is, solidiers probably don't see it as rough compared to having a house on your back and being shot at.


Really?  Are you basing this on your non-existent field experience and non-existent TI, since you do not yet appear to have completed the recruitment process?



			
				army08 said:
			
		

> Simply put a rough life is not foreign to a solider. When people conquer their physical worlds it can be largely compared to a psychosis, being detached from the physical nature that other softer people would be more in tune with.   It is largely about what your experiences are.


I'm afraid that your comments on physical worlds and psychosis are just so much gobbledegook - they may sound learned to you, but to me you're spouting drivel.  It does, however, increase your post count.


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## George Wallace (12 Oct 2013)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> .......  It does, however, increase your post count.



....but not your credibility.


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## armyca08 (12 Oct 2013)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> Really?  Are you basing this on your non-existent field experience and non-existent TI, since you do not yet appear to have completed the recruitment process?
> I'm afraid that your comments on physical worlds and psychosis are just so much gobbledegook - they may sound learned to you, but to me you're spouting drivel.  It does, however, increase your post count.



No, its my opinion, I am not citing authorities. I've ran into a number of people through my life who were interacting with the CF either as aspiring, current, or former members of both the reserve and regular forces. I base my opinions upon real world interactions, and my own experiences. If you disagree with something I've said I invite you to clarify what is an errored statement.

It sums up to, the more pain you experience the more normal it gets. Not exactly gobbledegook, the military hardens people, that is all there is to it.

I am not the least concerned about my post count. Although I understand I only have 9 more shots at this.. and I'm not even done my second application, whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting  or rather 159 more...


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Oct 2013)

army08 said:
			
		

> No, its my opinion, I am not citing authorities. I've ran into a number of people through my life who were interacting with the CF either as aspiring, current, or former members of both the reserve and regular forces. I base my opinions upon real world interactions, and my own experiences. If you disagree with something I've said I invite you to clarify what is an errored statement.
> 
> It sums up to, the more pain you experience the more normal it gets. Not exactly gobbledegook, the military hardens people, that is all there is to it.
> 
> I am not the least concerned about my post count. Although I understand I only have 9 more shots at this.. and I'm not even done my second application, whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting



For many, money and a place to stay has nothing to do with it.

Many out there just want to be left alone and prefer not to share the burdens of society (rent, income, jobs, etc).

In short, you really don't know what you're talking about.

However, we've come to expect that from some around here.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Oct 2013)

army08 said:
			
		

> whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting  or rather 159 more...



Save a lot of people a lot of wasted reading time?


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## stealthylizard (12 Oct 2013)

I was homeless last summer.  It had nothing to do with being in the military.  I had a job.  I had the money.  I just wasn't able to find a new place to live after moving.


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## Journeyman (13 Oct 2013)

army08 said:
			
		

> It is fairly obvious the root cause of homelessness is not having a home, high property taxes, rental costs etc..


Perhaps they're simply setting themselves up for this line of work?   :nod:


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## Van Gogh (18 Oct 2013)

As others have said, even though 20% might have served in the CF's before (which I highly doubt), that says very little about why they are on the street.
We all make personal decisions in out life's (regardless of where we work) that could end up with us being on the street !!! 

P.S. Of  course there are cases when it was not the homeless persons fault that he ended up on the street, just bad luck ....


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## Danjanou (18 Oct 2013)

army08 said:
			
		

> No, its my opinion, I am not citing authorities. I've ran into a number of people through my life who were interacting with the CF either as aspiring, current, or former members of both the reserve and regular forces. I base my opinions upon real world interactions, and my own experiences. If you disagree with something I've said I invite you to clarify what is an errored statement.
> 
> It sums up to, the more pain you experience the more normal it gets. Not exactly gobbledegook, the military hardens people, that is all there is to it.
> 
> I am not the least concerned about my post count. Although I understand I only have 9 more shots at this.. and I'm not even done my second application, whatever will I do if I am unable to post in recruiting  or rather 159 more...




And as the saying goes opinions are like a certain body part everyone has one.

Guess what butter cup there are people on this board and contributing to this thread who actually have real life experience in the subject at hand. That means they are real BTDT Vets who have as you put it lived with theiri house on their back and /or been shot at. There are also people on here that have real life experience in dealing with the homeless on a regular basis. There are even some who fall into both categories.

So sunshine rather than enlighten us with you theories on the subject, how about you STFU and listen/read a bit more and then begin to understand this issue , if that is your objective.


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## john10 (19 Oct 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> And as the saying goes opinions are like a certain body part everyone has one.
> 
> Guess what butter cup there are people on this board and contributing to this thread who actually have real life experience in the subject at hand. That means they are real BTDT Vets who have as you put it lived with theiri house on their back and /or been shot at. There are also people on here that have real life experience in dealing with the homeless on a regular basis. There are even some who fall into both categories.
> 
> So sunshine rather than enlighten us with you theories on the subject, how about you STFU and listen/read a bit more and then begin to understand this issue , if that is your objective.


 Is this what's considered civil discussion, leadership through example? 

Telling a guy to shut the fukkk up just because his opinion is different from recce's?


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## chrisf (19 Oct 2013)

Out of curiosity... does anyone have stat on what percent of the Canadian population at large have served in the forces?


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## mariomike (20 Oct 2013)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity... does anyone have stat on what percent of the Canadian population at large have served in the forces?



Not a percentage, but this is the estimated number.

Estimated Veteran Population as of March 2013
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/department/press/gnstat


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## chrisf (20 Oct 2013)

So about 1.9%, but that's veterans...

Of course, as we all know, once a member of the forces, always a former member of the forces... spend 3 days in basic training, voluntarily release, rob a bank 10 years later, and the media reports it as a "Former member of the Canadian forces"

Would be interesting to know if 16%, after subtracting the portion who may lie about former service, exceeds the percentage overall of the Canadian population who have, at some point, served with the Canadian forces....


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## MilEME09 (20 Oct 2013)

Personally I'm more interested in what factors contributed to them being homeless, and if any of those factors were a break down in government programs and services


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Oct 2013)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Personally I'm more interested in what factors contributed to them being homeless, and if any of those factors were a break down in government programs and services



Most just like it that way............


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## pbi (21 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Most just like it that way............



The problem may be, though, that some "just like it that way" because they are too mentally ill to make a better decision.  About two years ago I was involved in a case of an older vet "living rough" in pretty bad conditions in rural Ontario. Despite the efforts of a bunch of well-meaning organizations ranging from the OPP to VAC to the Legion, etc., he decided he didn't want help. His behaviour suggested very strongly that he was mentally disturbed, but because this couldn't be proven sufficiently, he was left to go on his way.

My guess would be that mental illness (aggravated by alcoholism or other addiction) is behind the problem for a good number of these "16 percenters". 

Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?


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## Danjanou (21 Oct 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> The problem may be, though, that some "just like it that way" because they are too mentally ill to make a better decision.  About two years ago I was involved in a case of an older vet "living rough" in pretty bad conditions in rural Ontario. Despite the efforts of a bunch of well-meaning organizations ranging from the OPP to VAC to the Legion, etc., he decided he didn't want help. His behaviour suggested very strongly that he was mentally disturbed, but because this couldn't be proven sufficiently, he was left to go on his way.
> 
> My guess would be that mental illness (aggravated by alcoholism or other addiction) is behind the problem for a good number of these "16 percenters".
> 
> Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?



Got it in one. There are agencies/resources out there to help the homeless and/or those with concurrent disorders ( mental health and addictions issues), and we can debate how effective they are or are not but there is one factor to consider, none of them are effective if they people they are set up to assist don't for whatever reason access them.

Many suffering from mental health issues will not access help for one simple reason, they don't see himself as mentally ill. Try telling someone "hey bud you've gone a bit off in the head maybe we should go and see a Doctor." Not going to get the same result as " hey bud you're arm is broken lets take you into the Doctors office and get it taken care of. Toss in the social stigma attached with mental/emotional illness and the fact that the very nature of this type of illness and its effect on the normal rational thought process and you see the problem.

Now add in the addiction issue if one exists. Anyone have experience with convincing a friend  or family member that yes they do have a problem and getting them to admit it? Finally as we're for the most part still dealing with that older generation of vets here the "real men don't have issues and suck it up butter cup" mindset and well one gets the idea of how much an uphill battle this is , even without al the political baggage tossed in.


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## mariomike (21 Oct 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Mario Mike: you probably dealt with a few of these folks in your career: what do you think?



I remember the shut-ins, the hoarders, people isolated with no social support, as well as the "NFA's" ( No Fixed Address ). As to what percentage had served in the military, it wasn't part of our assessment to ask. 

As to _why_ they lived that way, we left that to the social workers. 

All we knew was that the challenges they presented were sometimes overwhelming. 

Going into the camps in the ravines you always went in loud - because there was a concern they might have traps.

Many had dogs. We didn't like it, but sometimes we brought them along as well. We let them smoke too. We also brought their bags of stuff with them. 

It was a waste of time arguing about the rules. Better to bend a little and hope for a fast and quiet trip than later have to explain to the Coroner why we cancelled ourselves off the call. 

Some guys used to lecture them about taking the ambulance away from "someone who might really need us".  

You never knew how they were going to react. Many were docile. Others very agitated. 

Even in such a big city, because there were so many "frequent flyers" you got to know some of them. One old guy used to tell us stories about sailing all over the world with the Merchant Marine. One night he was hit 

and killed by a drunk driver. When we wheeled him in to the ER the nurses started to cry because they had become so fond of him. They usually said, "Why did you bring him to OUR emerg? Was XXX closed?!"  

Something the Department started a couple of years before I retired was sending Community Paramedics to check on individuals as an extension to our emergency service.  

Cheers


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## The Bread Guy (6 Nov 2013)

From the "Be Careful What You Wish For" file ....

The Veterans Affairs Minister wants to know about homeless vets you might know about.  This, from the Parliamentary Secretary speaking in the House of Commons yesterday (highlights mine):


> Mr. Speaker, last week, the Minister of Veterans Affairs met with individuals who are dedicated to helping homeless veterans get off the streets. We, like many veterans groups such as the Royal Canadian Legion, believe that veterans' homelessness should never happen in the first place. We must stand together to address these unfortunate circumstances.  *I call on every member in the House and all Canadians to please contact the Minister of Veterans Affairs immediately if they know of or come across a homeless veteran in their community.*


You can find contact information for Mr. Fantino's office here or here.


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## Sheep Dog (29 Nov 2013)

ALLCON, I am a volunteer with a non-profit on the streets of Toronto.  The numbers are legitimate, when a person declares military service, their service number is recorded and VAC confirms.  What is not reported, there is only one shelter doing this to date.  All others treat those who come through the door as either transient or homeless, there is no question of military service.

Here is a break out (based on one organization this past year):

Their mission has identified eighty three (83) men who are Veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces.
Of the eighty three, they have housed forty (40).
They run an in-house Drug Alcohol Recovery Enrichment program.  They dedicate five (5) beds exclusively for Veterans.
They run a specialized Veterans Life Skills Program.
Average age is 41.


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## McG (30 Nov 2013)

So, the statistic of 16% is based on numbers collected at only one shelter which likely attracts a biased sample because it offers special services exclusively for veterans?


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## mariomike (30 Nov 2013)

From the Summary dated September 4, 2013.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/cd/bgrd/backgroundfile-61364.pdf
page 7

"Homelessness among Canadian Veterans is evident within Toronto:

Street Needs Assessment respondents were asked about military service for the first time in 2013. Seven percent of the overall homeless population indicated that they had some experience in the Canadian Forces. Although data behind this result is limited (respondents were not asked about length or type of service) it is nonetheless an important result of the SNA. There has been little to no research yet conducted to understand the prevalence of homelessness among Veterans in Canada. However, studies in the United States indicate that roughly 7 percent of the country's homeless population are Veterans *, while in the United Kingdom it is 6 percent."

"In addition, SSHA ( Shelter, Support and Housing Administration ) will: Update shelter intake materials in all SSHA programs to incorporate questions about clients' past service in the Canadian Armed Forces."

* "In U.S., 24% of Men, 2% of Women Are Veterans"
http://www.gallup.com/poll/158729/men-women-veterans.aspx


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## Sheep Dog (2 Dec 2013)

The stats are as indicated based upon a street level effort by the city.  I used the ministries numbers as they are accurate and verified.   I am sure we will get stronger more accurate numbers as advocacy gets out to the various organizations to capture veteran data and share it.  No matter how you look at it, there is a problem.


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## Danjanou (2 Dec 2013)

Intersting the numbers in the link posted above by mariomike to the actual document/study done don't say 16% as noted earlier but 7%



> 9. Homelessness among Canadian Veterans is evident within Toronto
> Street Needs Assessment respondents were asked about military service for the first time in 2013. Seven percent of the overall homeless population indicated that they had some experience in the Canadian Forces. Although data behind this result is limited (respondents were not asked about length or type of service) it is nonetheless an important result of the SNA. There has been little to no research yet conducted to understand the prevalence of homelessness among Veterans in Canada. However, studies in the United States indicate that roughly 7 percent of the country's homeless population are Veterans, while in the United Kingdom it is 6 percent



Now they go on to suggest an estimated 5,253 total homeless, those in the shleter system and those not, based on the count done April 17, 2013. Now 7% of that is 367-368 down from the earlier estimated including the ones I suggested but still way to high.


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## chyna (4 Dec 2013)

Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Dec 2013)

chyna said:
			
		

> Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change.



It matters if it's over reported because that money can be put to better use serving vets.  Take a look at how little money actually makes it through all of the various 'hands' on the way down......


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## Danjanou (4 Dec 2013)

chyna said:
			
		

> Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not! They are a former serving member down on their luck. Cannot stand how so many of us apply our own biases to issues such as these. If the shoe was on our foot...oh how the tune would change.



So buddy did you actually read this entire thread or just decide to jump up on your soapbox today. I and more than a few otherrs on here actually do give a flying frig and as others can attest spend a lot of time and effort on this issue. As Bruce pointed out, actually knowing the extent of the problem helps as opposed to the toss some money at it, and hope it goes away, or ignore it an hopes it goes away which are the two options often being used.


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## chyna (4 Dec 2013)

I did in fact read the thread. In fact I deal with this type of issue on a daily basis as part of my job.  I also volunteer once a week at 2 homeless centres to help reach out. So perhaps my frustration is directly linked with having to deal with too many people that would rather debate stats to death instead of perhaps going in and getting their hands dirty. Through experience, I have learned that judging whether one person is more entitled than another to care, instead of looking at how can I help. The way I see it, if 1 out of 10 are using the system....at least I got to 9 instead wasting effort to see which of the 10 deserve the care

Sorry very touchy subject for me as I listen everyday to people make judgements on what deployment is more important than another, whether a person should be entitled to their OSI diagnosis based on their experience, tours etc... 

Again...they're down on their luck and it should not matter how, but what can we do within our ability to help


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## Monsoon (4 Dec 2013)

chyna said:
			
		

> Wh gives a flying f if the stats are over-reported, if they are cold war vets, or not!


It matters because the stat perpetuates a pernicious misperception amongst the Star's readership that military service is correlated with low-functioning individuals who are, in effect, one small step away from being homeless. Alternately, it perpetuates the myth that if you join the military, you will inevitably "get PTSD and go crazy", as does the over-reporting of CF suicides (which remain below the general population's average when adjusted for age and gender demographics). So yes, whether or not the stat is legitimate matters.

_N.B._ - I'm not saying we shouldn't make all efforts to help vets in need, nor am I saying that we shouldn't be doing more to help members who are in crisis (for any reason). What I am saying is that bogus stats are used by the military's various antagonists to delegitimize us and increase the apparent cost of our missions.


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## pbi (12 Dec 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> It matters because the stat perpetuates a pernicious misperception amongst the Star's readership that military service is correlated with low-functioning individuals who are, in effect, one small step away from being homeless. Alternately, it perpetuates the myth that if you join the military, you will inevitably "get PTSD and go crazy", as does the over-reporting of CF suicides (which remain below the general population's average when adjusted for age and gender demographics). So yes, whether or not the stat is legitimate matters.
> 
> _N.B._ - I'm not saying we shouldn't make all efforts to help vets in need, nor am I saying that we shouldn't be doing more to help members who are in crisis (for any reason). What I am saying is that bogus stats are used by the military's various antagonists to delegitimize us and increase the apparent cost of our missions.





My concern exactly. You can't fix a problem until you define it properly. Running around in circles exaggerating things or giving bad info will not help anybody. I would go much further than "the Star's readership" to include a broad range of otherwise uninformed Canadians. 

We shouldn't be making it easy for the public to draw a mental box around vets and marginalize them by telling themselves "_Oh, vets..well, they're all like that, aren't they?_"If we are going to avoid the terrible and tragic consequences that beset veterans in the US after Vietnam, we need to avoid stoking two bonfires:

-that soldiers are otherwise socially useless people who couldn't get any other job, so it's no wonder they're back on the street; and

-if you go off to war, you come back as a psychotic looney-tune who will never be able to function again. And you were probably a nutter to volunteer in the first place.

It's not abandoning or ignoring vets. Its about making sure those things aren't easy for the public to rationalize.


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## mariomike (28 Aug 2016)

Homeless Veterans are a national concern. Perhaps the thread title could reflect that?

Aug 28, 2016 

A by-the-numbers look at Canada's population of homeless military veterans
http://www.680news.com/2016/08/28/a-by-the-numbers-look-at-canadas-population-of-homeless-military-veterans/
OTTAWA – A by-the-numbers look at the state of homelessness among Canadian military veterans:

2,250: Estimated number of veterans who use shelters annually.

639: Homeless veterans registered in Veteran Affairs Canada’s database as of June 30.

232: Homeless veterans in the database who are between age 50 and 59.

138: Homeless veterans in the database who are over age 65.

235,000: Canadians who experience homelessness annually.

5-7: Range, in percentage points, of the homeless population who are veterans, based on municipal point-in-time homeless counts.

12,000: Estimated number of veterans experiencing homelessness in Canada, based on that spread.

40,000: Approximate number of veterans who experience homelessness in the United States annually.

47: Per cent by which the United States has decreased veterans homelessness since 2010 using measures being considered by Veterans Affairs Canada.

(Sources: Employment and Social Development Canada, Veterans Affairs Canada, Canadian Observatory on Homelessness,


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## Monsoon (29 Aug 2016)

So put another way: the "homeless veteran" population who use shelters (i.e. the verifiable number) correlates almost exactly to the ratio of male members of the Canadian population who serve in the military at some point in their lifetime (<1% in both cases).

The extrapolated figure based on municipal estimates (12,000) is literally unbelievable. With an active/reserve military establishment of 2.2MM in the US, the prevalence of veteran homelessness in Canada would need to be 10x the prevalence of veteran homelessness in the US for that number to be correct. I ain't buying it.


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## Lightguns (29 Aug 2016)

For discussion, I am concerned about how we are applying the term homeless veteran.  16 By 9 did a story on homeless veterans, the profiled 4 specifically, a Calgary cop who was homeless until he became a cop, a Canadian Vietnam Vet who has no Canadian service, a single 3 year engagement PPCLI vet who went and worked 25 years in the Alberta Oil Industry and a 10 year engagement Sailor who left the Navy because of alcohol problems.  The media apply a much larger vet umbrella than VA on this file.  Are we helping yourselves by signing on to a "vet is vet".


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## dapaterson (29 Aug 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Are we helping yourselves by signing on to a "vet is vet".



On the other hand, who do you want to hand the hammer to decide "who is a vet"?  

"Sorry, your deployment to Bosnia wasn't enough to qualify as a vet."

"Sorry, the accident on your DP1 that left you paraplegic means you were never occupationally qualified, and therefore don't qualify as a vet."


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Are we helping yourselves by signing on to a "vet is vet".



We just had that discussion and it came out that a "Vet" was anyone who had completed Basic Training before Release according to some.  

https://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Veteran

Linked to:  http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/about-us/definition-veteran



> From the Veteran's Affairs website:
> 
> Date modified: 2015-11-03
> 
> ...


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## Lightguns (29 Aug 2016)

I understand that but how can any organization be given endless liability for someone else's life?  You do three years and you leave, get job, have a great life for 25 years, things go bad and now the VA is responsible to fix it?


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I understand that but how can any organization be given endless liability for someone else's life?  You do three years and you leave, get job, have a great life for 25 years, things go bad and now the VA is responsible to fix it?



It sounds like you are saying that if you have a great life for 25 years in a civilian job after having "Served' you are no longer a Veteran.  That was not the case for any of the WW I, WW II, nor Korean Vets.  I have a friend now living in Columbia, who was diagnosed with PTSD twenty years after his Release for an incident that happened several years before his Release.   If he were to become homeless today because of his diagnosed problem, would he no longer fall under the "Veteran" standard, in your eyes?


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## mariomike (29 Aug 2016)

It does go on to say,

"Please note that other criteria, in addition to Veteran status, are needed to qualify for services from the Department."


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## Lightguns (29 Aug 2016)

No, I am saying that there is should be a limitation of liability to that which is service related.  If you leave after a short time, fit and healthy and go on to make your own way in the world, you have no claim beyond that which is service related, being a short time vet should not be a life time guarantee anymore than any other profession would offer.


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## Lightguns (29 Aug 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> It does go on to say,
> 
> "Please note that other criteria, in addition to Veteran status, are needed to qualify for services from the Department."



Ack, that would satisfy me.  I just don't believe life should have a guarantee for anyone, that makes it very boring.


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> No, I am saying that there is should be a limitation of liability to that which is service related.  If you leave after a short time, fit and healthy and go on to make your own way in the world, you have no claim beyond that which is service related, being a short time vet should not be a life time guarantee anymore than any other profession would offer.



I do agree with that, but think I have been overruled by the political powers that be.


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## mariomike (29 Aug 2016)

Date modified: 2015-11-03

NEW DEFINITION OF A VETERAN

"When people think of Veterans, many immediately picture someone who served in the First World War, Second World War or the Korean War."

I found the date of interest. Less than a year ago.

The average age of WW2 veterans is 92.
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/news/general-statistics

I knew a lot of '46ers on the job. Sorry to see there are so few remaining, or in nursing homes.  Went to see one of them and couldn't understand a word he said.


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## Lightguns (29 Aug 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Date modified: 2015-11-03
> 
> NEW DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
> 
> ...



I think VA may evolve for current veterans, if for no other reason than they want to keep their jobs and budgets (the closed offices being the latest manifestation of that desire).  It is a shame that they spent so many years in the 60s, 70s, and 80s calling us CF retirees, a lot good folks who needed that vet assistance aren't with us anymore.


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## childs56 (30 Aug 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> No, I am saying that there is should be a limitation of liability to that which is service related.  If you leave after a short time, fit and healthy and go on to make your own way in the world, you have no claim beyond that which is service related, being a short time vet should not be a life time guarantee anymore than any other profession would offer.



Who defines you as being healthy, who says an incident or injury from your service does not come forth later on in life causing you a issue? 
A three/4 year Soldier signs up, does Basic, trades, then deploys to a War zone or Peace support Mission. Releases after their initial BE, is signed off as fine. (we all know how that goes). 
20 years later they are still chasing their demons from their deployment. Their life is a mess, but they did not recognize their issues were service related. 

Or how about a Reservist who serves a few years in, gets a deployment. Stays in for 20 or leaves the Reserves shortly after their home from deployment. 
They are suffering from PTSD, OSI or physical, yet they do not know or it was treated and paper work lost. For the most part they do not have near the support you have on a Military Base for these issues, nor is your peer support as good in most cases. 
Later on in life after not being diagnosed with OSI, PTSD or your physical injury comes back and your life has been a bit of mess because of it. Your saying that because you released healthy and fit deemed by someone who has no two bucks in the matter that the Military has no reason to help you out?


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## Lightguns (30 Aug 2016)

CTD said:
			
		

> Who defines you as being healthy, who says an incident or injury from your service does not come forth later on in life causing you a issue?
> A three/4 year Soldier signs up, does Basic, trades, then deploys to a War zone or Peace support Mission. Releases after their initial BE, is signed off as fine. (we all know how that goes).
> 20 years later they are still chasing their demons from their deployment. Their life is a mess, but they did not recognize their issues were service related.
> 
> ...



As I said in my first statement you quoted there should be no limitation of liability for service related issues.  Health is determined by a medical professional.


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## childs56 (30 Aug 2016)

But many instances the Medical Professional are the ones denying legit issues. Which seem minor now but years down the road cause further complications. 
In some cases they are denying benefits to those who are suffering from PTSD and or OSI, using the it "happened to you prior to your Military career".  Yet many of these people were fine before deployment, a little off afterwards and now a complete mess especially after their diagnoses of the professional. Leave it up to the PROs to get the job done.


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## mariomike (30 Aug 2016)

Regarding "16% of Toronto homeless served in Canadian military",

I'm not an expert. 

But I do remember this,

Deinstitutionalization of Queen St Mental Health Centre aka 999 and Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital aka 3131 discharged thousands of patients - including some - how many? - who had likely served in the Canadian military - into South Parkdale in the early '80's. The experts called it "community based care". Whatever...

Only a small number of group homes existed. Perhaps thirty or so, by my recollection. 

The city has changed almost beyond recognition since then. 

Perhaps someone more current with the homeless situation will comment.


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## McG (30 Aug 2016)

Is it my imagination or does the byline disagree with the text (see highlight in yellow)?



> *Shelter use higher for military veterans, aboriginals than general population: study*
> CTV News
> 29 Aug 2016
> 
> ...


http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/shelter-use-higher-for-military-veterans-aboriginals-than-general-population-study-1.3049184


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## dapaterson (30 Aug 2016)

The number is higher than an earlier study.


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## kratz (26 Oct 2016)

Instead of starting a new thread, it made more sense to add this here.

I know members on the site have often referred to homeless veterans.
The message I received today, reminded me of many comments:



> Help Support Veterans House and Win a Mercedes Benz!​
> 
> On any given night, over 2,400 Canadian Forces Veterans, men and women are homeless, living in shelters and on the streets in our communities and across Canada.  In the National Capital Region alone, there are over 328 identified veterans living on the street.
> 
> ...



While this effort is for the NCR, it does provide some strong numbers.


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## Monsoon (4 Nov 2016)

Amazing how quickly "2,950 vets access shelters annually" turns into "2,400 vets use shelters every night" when it comes to fundraising time...  :


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