# Army returns to dark blue or khaki berets for Foot Guards and technical corps



## OceanBonfire (15 Apr 2019)

> _By Steven Fouchard, Army Public Affairs_
> 
> Ottawa, Ontario — The first colour most would associate with the Canadian Army (CA) is green but, in light of a new change in dress policy, some CA members will be wearing dark blue or khaki berets.
> 
> ...



https://www.facebook.com/notes/canadian-army/army-returns-to-dark-blue-or-khaki-berets-for-foot-guards-and-technical-corps/2134631726628794/

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=army-returns-to-dark-blue-or-khaki-berets-for-foot-guards-and-technical-corps/jucn3okj


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## Rheostatic (15 Apr 2019)

"returns"


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Apr 2019)

How about basic useful necessary stuff??,....seems to me that we should be working on that.  Obviously, any folks who worked on a project such as this, MUST be an overage and can be laid off.


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## Calvillo (16 Apr 2019)

Are INT members wearing Navy and Air Force uniforms eligible to wear the dark blue beret?


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## chrisf (16 Apr 2019)

Just so I'm understanding this right...

This can be summed up as blue berets were a thing briefly in the 50s, and khaki berets were a thing a foreign unit did in the 70s, so now it's an important part of military heritage?


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## Remius (16 Apr 2019)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Just so I'm understanding this right...
> 
> This can be summed up as blue berets were a thing briefly in the 50s, and khaki berets were a thing a foreign unit did in the 70s, so now it's an important part of military heritage?



_were a thing a foreign unit did_

Like maroon. tan, airforce blue or red berets were adopted for the same reasons?


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## blacktriangle (16 Apr 2019)

I'm assuming that the new fighting rigs, improved uniform designs, and modern sidearms are next, right?

Right?  :'(


 :rofl:


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## Remius (16 Apr 2019)

DetectiveMcNulty said:
			
		

> I'm assuming that the new fighting rigs, improved uniform designs, and modern sidearms are next, right?
> 
> Right?  :'(
> 
> ...



Ha!  Not likely.  Berets are low hanging fruit.


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## FJAG (16 Apr 2019)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Just so I'm understanding this right...
> 
> This can be summed up as blue berets were a thing briefly in the 50s, and khaki berets were a thing a foreign unit did in the 70s, so now it's an important part of military heritage?



No! No! Blue berets were a thing in the 50s, 60s and very early 70s until that green abomination took over. The blue beret was the first headress I was ever issued (about sixty seconds before I got my Peter Pan combat hat - which incidentally I still have after just over half a century)

I for one (and the seventeen other people just like me) are happy to see it make a comeback. (Sure hope gunners will wear a red felt patch behind the cap badge.)

 ;D :stirpot:


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## daftandbarmy (16 Apr 2019)

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Just so I'm understanding this right...
> 
> This can be summed up as blue berets were a thing briefly in the 50s, and khaki berets were a thing a foreign unit did in the 70s, so now it's an important part of military heritage?



Pretty much. And, based on my observations in another Army, at another time and place, you watch how fast those Guardsmen try to 'big up' that khaki beret as "almost tan and therefore just about as special as 'them'"


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## Old Sweat (16 Apr 2019)

I briefly wore the blue beret in 1958 in the RCA Depot and then 4 RCHA. However we also were issued blue forage caps and examination of my few photos from the depot showing my troop on a guard of honour for the CGS and then our graduation group photo had us in forage caps. 

I frankly find the matter underwhelming.


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## Furniture (16 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Are INT members wearing Navy and Air Force uniforms eligible to wear the dark blue beret?



Only those members of the branch in CA DEU, the rest of us carry on with the RCAF blue, and RCN black berets we already have.


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## Calvillo (16 Apr 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Only those members of the branch in CA DEU, the rest of us carry on with the RCAF blue, and RCN black berets we already have.



Interesting, considering that Navy and Air Force MP and CANSOFCOM wear Scarlet and Tan, respectively.


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## exspy (16 Apr 2019)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> ...examination of my few photos from the depot showing my troop on a guard of honour for the CGS and then our graduation group photo had us in forage caps.



Any chance of you scanning and posting those?

Cheers,
Dan.


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## Petard (17 Apr 2019)

From the headline I guess the CA lumps gunners in with technical trades now?

I still don’t get the connection to “going back” to blue berets, and what’s next? Dickies? 
There are far more important things to focus on that will increase pride in service


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## Furniture (17 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Interesting, considering that Navy and Air Force MP and CANSOFCOM wear Scarlet and Tan, respectively.



The reasoning given is that those are speciality berets, and new blue one is a standard beret like the RCAF, RCN, and current CA green berets. It just replaces the green beret for some trades in CA uniform.


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## RocketRichard (17 Apr 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> The reasoning given is that those are speciality berets, and new blue one is a standard beret like the RCAF, RCN, and current CA green berets. It just replaces the green beret for some trades in CA uniform.


What if you are a member of a unit that has the new blue beret and you are not of that MOS? Will one wear that beret  à la armoured regiments?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## daftandbarmy (17 Apr 2019)

RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> What if you are a member of a unit that has the new blue beret and you are not of that MOS? Will one wear that beret  à la armoured regiments?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If only there was a decision tree process map ....  ;D


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## dapaterson (17 Apr 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> If only there was a decision tree process map ....  ;D



Once we figure out the toque / gloves / raingear conundrum, we can move on to more complex issues like this.  For example, what colour beret would a RCEME tech in an armoured regiment wear?


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## RocketRichard (17 Apr 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Once we figure out the toque / gloves / raingear conundrum, we can move on to more complex issues like this.  For example, what colour beret would a RCEME tech in an armoured regiment wear?


So complicated is the CAF is it not?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Furniture (17 Apr 2019)

RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> What if you are a member of a unit that has the new blue beret and you are not of that MOS? Will one wear that beret  à la armoured regiments?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not that I know of, unless arty decides to go that route. For the Int side it's just CA DEU Int/Met people.


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## Calvillo (17 Apr 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> The reasoning given is that those are speciality berets, and new blue one is a standard beret like the RCAF, RCN, and current CA green berets. It just replaces the green beret for some trades in CA uniform.



Not that I am questioning you personally but can one not argue that the blue beret is a specialty for ARTY, RCEME, RCCS and INT? It just happens that all but INT are Army-specific trades.

It would be funny if Navy and Air Force retaliate by issuing different color berets for their own INT.


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## daftandbarmy (17 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Not that I am questioning you personally but can one not argue that the blue beret is a specialty for ARTY, RCEME, RCCS and INT? It just happens that all but INT are Army-specific trades.
> 
> It would be funny if Navy and Air Force retaliate by issuing different color berets for their own INT.



.... like Purple, because it's a 'Purple Trade' right?


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## Furniture (17 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Not that I am questioning you personally but can one not argue that the blue beret is a specialty for ARTY, RCEME, RCCS and INT? It just happens that all but INT are Army-specific trades.
> 
> It would be funny if Navy and Air Force retaliate by issuing different color berets for their own INT.



That's the way it was described in the email from my CoC, since I'm stuck wearing a blue bag I just have to make sure my troops switch to the new beret at the right time.


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## Navy_Pete (17 Apr 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> .... like Purple, because it's a 'Purple Trade' right?



Back in the day when navy officers had trade stripes, the one for the engineering officers (now called marine systems engineering officers) actually was purple.  Each officer trade had their own colour.  

That went away at some point (unification), but there is still (a rather stupid) tradition where some engineering officers on the ships use a purple pen.

For whatever reason, Navy medical officers kept the red stripe.

Anyway, please don't go there, or we'll have more navy shenanigans like the stupid executive curl.  Unless I get to wear a cape (and maybe a tricorn) lets not feed the good idea fairies anything but warm Ovaltine.


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## BDTyre (17 Apr 2019)

Maybe we can bring back the dinner-plate sized battle bonnet balmorals for the Highland units since we're going back to older styles.  ;D


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## Blackadder1916 (17 Apr 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> That went away at some point (unification), but there is still (a rather stupid) tradition where some engineering officers on the ships use a purple pen.
> 
> For whatever reason, Navy medical officers kept the red stripe.



While the elimination of many things are blamed on unification, the passing of distinction colours falls totally on the shoulders of the RCN (version one).  With the exception of two colours (scarlet for doctors and maroon for other medical branch officers) distinction colours were discontinued effective 31 Dec 1959.  The RN abolished theirs previously in May 1955.  The colours for medical types were retained, supposedly, due to a feeling that those who had a distinctive protected status under the Geneva Conventions needed to have visible identification.


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## dimsum (18 Apr 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Anyway, please don't go there, or we'll have more navy shenanigans like the stupid executive curl.



At the risk of derailing this even further, I thought the curl was one of the less controversial buttons and bows reboots compared to the Army pips & crowns, and the RCAF pearl grey ranks and Aviator rank?


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## Calvillo (18 Apr 2019)

As well, I thought the readopting of the curl was the correct decision? Of the well-known maritime forces in the world that were using sleeve stripes as ranks, virtually all of them used either a variation of the curl or a device / insignia / star on or above the stripes. Only the then Maritime Command wore their stripes without anything.


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## Navy_Pete (18 Apr 2019)

It was more of the context of the time the curl rolled out; there was a big budget crunch rolling across everything, so there was maintenance holds on specific equipment for some ships, spare part purchases being delayed, and some sailing delayed until the next FY due to a fuel budget crunch. Personally I think I was running around at the time trying to see how we were going to keep ATH limping around without getting anyone killed, so left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I remember that every time I see the curls and reminds me of misplaced priorities, so don't like them.

I think at the same time the stokers had a hold on their spec pay when it was under review (believe that took two years?) so it was extra good to see the officers get something. I would have preferred they spent the cash on parts and maintenance, which was the stuff that gave me lots of sleepless nights.

This one is for a whole community of trades, so not too bad, but personally think any uniform thing specific to officers should be shelved until all operational kit is sorted.


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## FJAG (19 Apr 2019)

Dan M said:
			
		

> Any chance of you scanning and posting those?
> 
> Cheers,
> Dan.



Here are two that show a bit of that.







This is of 7th Toronto Regt RCA on parade in 1965. I'm not in the picture as it was taken a couple of months before I joined. The dress is battle dress and you'll note some folks in forage caps and others in berets. The practice at the time was that you wore the beret until you graduated your recruit course and gun layer's course (essentially until qualified DP1) and then were issued the forage cap and your white lanyard and layer's trade badge for your sleeve.






This one's my graduation photo in 1970 and is a bit unique. As officer cadets you wore the same uniform as other ranks until you completed your basic arty officers course at which time you were issued with officer's TWs. Our graduation took place at exactly the time that CF Greens were being issued (although for officers you were given the cloth and had to have the uniform tailored as it wasn't yet available on the shelf). On top of that we went directly from officer cadet to lieutenant without being 2nd lieutenants. As a result I'm wearing OR TWs, an OR forage cap and a Sam Browne belt with my lieutenant's pips. That lasted for six weeks until my Greens were ready. (Note the Mobile Command patch on the shoulder)

Fun times.

 :cheers:


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## exspy (19 Apr 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Here are two that show a bit of that.



Wolf,

Thanks for the photos and info. Always glad for details from the old Army (Harrumph!).

Quick question: That doesn't look like Moss Park Armoury to me. Is it?

Cheers,
Dan.


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2019)

Dan M said:
			
		

> That doesn't look like Moss Park Armoury to me. Is it?



Fort York.


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## FJAG (19 Apr 2019)

Yup. The three predecessor regiments of 7th Toronto (29th Field, 42nd Medium and 1st Locating Regiment) were originally at University Street Armory (29th and 42nd) and Falaise Armoury (1st). When University was shut down in 1963, the 29th moved into temporary accommodation at 87 Richmond Street East and the 42nd moved into Falaise. In March 1965 the title of 7th Toronto was re-instituted, the 29th, 42nd and 1st went onto the supplementary order of battle and all the personnel concentrated at the Richmond Street location. (I remember as a recruit on work details moving the gear and office furniture of the 42nd and 1st out of Falaise to Richmond.) The picture is of the 7th, as reformed, at its first formal parade and because Richmond had no parade square it was held at York. We moved into Moss Park in May of 1966.

 :cheers:


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## Rifleman62 (19 Apr 2019)

Can't remember where the QOR of C were during this period. It was a cobblestone floored  bldg where they paraded before going to the NW rebellion. I was a Pioneer on the opening pde for Moss street Armoury. Lived in TO Sep 65 to Nov 66.


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2019)

There was an armoury on University Ave. ( where the court house is now ) from 1891 until it was demolished in 1963.


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## Rifleman62 (19 Apr 2019)

The QOR moved out to this warehouse bldg.


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2019)

For anyone interested,

Fates of former armouries  
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/111568.25
4 pages.

For reference to this discussion,



			
				FJAG said:
			
		

> I wanted to put in a picture of the first armoury I paraded at when I joined the 7th Toronto Regiment back in 1965. They had just moved everyone out of the old University Avenue Armouries and put us into a temporary armoury at 87 Richmond Street East until the Moss Park Armouries were built.
> 
> Unfortunately its a car park lot now  :'(





			
				pbi said:
			
		

> Do you recall the old Falaise Armoury down on Queen's Quay? I think there was an RCA Medium Regt there until very early 70's.



Quite a bit of discussion about the Toronto armouries ( and others ) in that thread.


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## FJAG (19 Apr 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Can't remember where the QOR of C were during this period. It was a cobblestone floored  bldg where they paraded before going to the NW rebellion. I was a Pioneer on the opening pde for Moss street Armoury. Lived in TO Sep 65 to Nov 66.



When University shut down in '63, the QOR moved into Richmond St with 29th Fd/7th Tor until Moss Park opened in'66.

 :cheers:


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## Rifleman62 (19 Apr 2019)

Richmond St, remember now. Thanks.

Don't remember seeing you Wolf.  ;D First time was when you where RSSO of 26 Fd Regt, RCA, then on several Black Bears. Remember you translating the German Bde Comd's (??) points on debrief. Then later as a Legal O.


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## FJAG (19 Apr 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Richmond St, remember now. Thanks.
> 
> Don't remember seeing you Wolf.  ;D First time was when you where RSSO of 26 Fd Regt, RCA, then on several Black Bears. Remember you translating the German Bde Comd's (??) points on debrief. Then later as a Legal O.



I was in 130 Bty 7th Tor from summer of 1965 at Richmond until my transfer to Reg Force for CFOCS in Aug 1969 at Moss Park.

I was just a lowly Gunner and later slightly more elevated Bombardier until went Reg F so didn't stand out much in the crowd. I can't remember seeing much of the QOR at Richmond. The place was so small we had to parade on different days. At Moss Park in those days 130 Bty only paraded on Saturday mornings. Didn't see much of the QOR then either except for the skirmishers and pioneers who were doing their practices on Saturdays as well. Later on when I became the driver/Sig for the regiment's sole command post, I did spend entirely too much time during schooldays in the Moss Park basement garage doing maintenance on my old 3/4 ton CP. Judging by my high school records I was absent for 30 some odd days in the last term of my Grade 13 (which I think had to be a record for someone who still manged to graduate and earn a degree later ;D)

The RSSO tour was mid '76 to '78 following which I went back to G Bty 3 RCHA until I pulled the plug, went over to the Camerons in Winnipeg as a Company Comd while doing law school/articles for four years and then going JAG. Seems I could never keep a job.

 :cheers:


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## exspy (19 Apr 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> For anyone interested.
> 
> Fates of former armouries.



Speaking of former armouries, Toronto had units parading everywhere during the 50's. I've attached a pdf list of the locations of all the Militia units in Toronto which I took from the 1959 Army mailing list.

Notice that Falaise Armoury was originally next door to Fort York Armoury on Fleet Street before moving to  Queen's Quay.

Cheers,
Dan.


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2019)

Dan M said:
			
		

> I've attached a pdf list of the locations of all the Militia units in Toronto which I took from the 1959 Army mailing list.



That was interesting. Thank-you!

Although before my time, I remember being told 136 Coy, No. 5 Column, RCASC was at the old University Ave. armoury downtown. 

By the time I joined, University Ave. had been demolished, and No. 5 Column had been re-located from Moss Park to Dennison Armoury, in North York. It was still on Dufferin St. back then. 

It was still 5 Column RCASC. But, 136 Coy had been re-numbered to 134 Company. 

Looking down that long list, the only armouries I was familiar with were Fort York and Moss Park. Denison was not built until 1961, and demolished in 2003, and re-built not far away on Yukon Lane, North York.

Thanks again for posting that list.


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## exspy (19 Apr 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Although before my time, I remember being told 136 Coy, No. 5 Column, RCASC was at the old University Ave. armoury downtown.
> 
> By the time I joined, University Ave. had been demolished, and No. 5 Column had been re-located from Moss Park to Denison Armoury, in North York. It was still on Dufferin St. back then.
> 
> Denison was not built until 1961...



Denison Armoury is where I first learned to step off with my left foot with the GGHG cadets. (It was also where I learned to swear and drink coffee.) At the time it was also home to 1 Toronto Service Battalion. 2 Toronto Service Battalion was at Moss Park.

Does anyone know what happened to the Sherman Tank that was on a concrete pad out front of Denison?

Cheers,
Dan.


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2019)

Dan M said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what happened to the Sherman Tank that was on a concrete pad out front of Denison?



Waiting for the next big snowfall when the mayor calls in the Army again? ( I kid, I kid! )

Did they not move it to the new Denison Armoury? I think there is ( was? ) a tank parked on the north side of Shepard Ave. W., just west of the Allen Expressway.

There is also a tank at York Cemetery at Beecroft and North York Blvd.

5 Column was being amalgamated at Denison when I joined. 

( I can split these posts - starting at Reply #31 - from "Army returns to dark blue or khaki berets for Foot Guards and technical corps"  and merge with "Fates of former armouries", if requested. )


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## FJAG (19 Apr 2019)

Dan M said:
			
		

> Denison Armoury is where I first learned to step off with my left foot with the GGHG cadets. (It was also where I learned to swear and drink coffee.) At the time it was also home to 1 Toronto Service Battalion. 2 Toronto Service Battalion was at Moss Park.
> 
> Does anyone know what happened to the Sherman Tank that was on a concrete pad out front of Denison?
> 
> ...



Just looked at Google maps and there are two Shermans parked in front of Denison at this time.

 :cheers:


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Just looked at Google maps and there are two Shermans parked in front of Denison at this time.
> 
> :cheers:



For pics and stories of them,
http://preservedtanks.com/Locations.aspx?LocationCategoryId=8250


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## Petard (20 Apr 2019)

This.


			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> How about basic useful necessary stuff??,....seems to me that we should be working on that.  Obviously, any folks who worked on a project such as this, MUST be an overage and can be laid off.




To someone who thinks this whole new change in dress doesn't really take that much time, who do they think is actually running it down? There actually aren't that many people doing the staff work on clothe the soldier type projects. This latest happened because people made it a priority
As Bruce rightly points out, if there were staff that had time for this, it would've been better spent moving projects ahead that deal with the essentials. There are many personal kit items that need attention, but how about even something simple? Like hearing protection for example. Anyone see the type of hearing protection gunners wear operating the M777? Ever wonder why they're still using the same old plug types as opposed to say anything that allows them to hear fire orders, and attenuate over-pressure/excess noise of the newer and more powerful types of ammunition they're firing? 

Just as Navy_Pete mentioned how they resented the RCN return to the Navy curl, because it's like a symbol of skewed priorities, I too resent this beret change for the very same reason. Not only is it an exercise in the appearance of doing something, instead of actually dealing with real problems, it took valuable people and time away from even looking after the small essential things that really matter


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2019)

Petard said:
			
		

> This.
> 
> To someone who thinks this whole new change in dress doesn't really take that much time, who do they think is actually running it down? There actually aren't that many people doing the staff work on clothe the soldier type projects. This latest happened because people made it a priority
> As Bruce rightly points out, if there were staff that had time for this, it would've been better spent moving projects ahead that deal with the essentials. There are many personal kit items that need attention, but how about even something simple? Like hearing protection for example. Anyone see the type of hearing protection gunners wear operating the M777? Ever wonder why they're still using the same old plug types as opposed to say anything that allows them to hear fire orders, and attenuate over-pressure/excess noise of the newer and more powerful types of ammunition they're firing?
> ...



But... but... at least it shows an equal emphasis on the Reg F and the Reserves in support of the 'Defense Team.'


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## Rifleman62 (21 Apr 2019)

Posting about old TO Armories......

Charles Mair is my Great Uncle who ran with the Dennison's who married his 2 nieces that were sisters. The third sister is my Great Grandmother. The Dennison's assisted my Grandfather, her son, through Upper Canada College.

Denison Armoury 
Officers of the Governor-General's Body Guard 1885 Humboldt, Saskatchewan

“Officers of the Governor-General’s Body Guard. Humboldt, Saskatchewan.” [1885] Caption: “L. to r. standing – Maj. Dunn, Lt. Col. G.T. Denison, Capt. Denison, Lt. Merritt. – seated – *Quartermaster Charles Mair*, Lt. Fleming, Surgeon Baldwin.” Credit: 1972-270 / Library and Archives Canada


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## exspy (21 Apr 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Charles Mair is my Great Uncle who ran with the Dennison's who married his 2 nieces that were sisters. The third sister is my Great Grandmother. The Dennison's assisted my Grandfather, her son, through Upper Canada College.



Brian,

With the greatest respect, but... Huh?

Dan.

PS: Nice photo.


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## mariomike (21 Apr 2019)

Back then, I was under the impression that the armoury was named after Mayor Dennison. 

He said the hippies and US military draft dodgers flocking into the city at the time were "Toronto's only problem."


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## Rifleman62 (21 Apr 2019)

Posting about old TO Armories......

Background to a tie in to my family that I didn't know about until my daughter found out about it. Also they almost purchased a home that the family owned in the mid 1800's when posted to Kingston. Mods can remove if they wish.


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## exspy (21 Apr 2019)

The military Denison family and the Armoury have one 'n' in their name.

I'm not sure what member of the five generations of the Denison family the armoury was named after, although there are many candidates. One, Septimus Julius Augustus Denison, commanded the RCR early in the 20th century and during the Great War commanded 2 Division, the command responsible for Toronto and the surrounding area. Another, George Taylor Denison (the third Denison with that name) was a Magistrate in Toronto from 1877 to 1921.

It was probably named after the family in toto.

Cheers,
Dan.


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## Rifleman62 (21 Apr 2019)

Lieutenant-Colonel George Taylor Denison III Armoury

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Taylor_Denison_III

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/denison_george_taylor_1839_1925_15E.html


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jun 2020)

https://www.facebook.com/CAFOperations/photos/a.395987090428612/3476669622360328/?type=3&theater

I hadn't seen the khaki berets before today, in the above picture.  I think they're sharp looking, now that I see them.

** head and eyes straight to the front, there, Sgt   ;D


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