# Close Quarter Combat (CQC) [Merged]



## onecat

I had a few questions about base life. Does the CF have any martial arts programs open to all member on the base? Or is this something that is only open to combat arms memebres, and is there a cost go attending.  Do they offer any training like they have in the Israeli army.

On a related note, does basic have any hand to hand training or do they wait until your QL3‘s to affer them.  I think martial arts is a great way to stay in shape and any training does help if there ever was a major conflict involving Canadian troops.


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## Michael OLeary

Some bases may have martial arts programs sponsored through the Personnel Services Program (PSP) at the base gymnasium. Normally these will not be free programs. Other bases may have a martial arts club set up by and run by service members, this also would have some sort of membership fees to join.

I believe (and no doubt someone will correct me if I‘m wrong) that the Basic Infantry Course is the only course that includes an introduction to unarmed combat and bayonet fighting as formal training objectives. This is very basic skills training and not continued on later courses.


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## Jarnhamar

I think taekwondo is the CF reckognized martial arts is it not? Like for compititions and what not. I know RMC is into it quite a bit.

Now and then for PT your unit might have a class of hand to hand combat but their pretty ineffective in my opinion. Martrial arts is like drill. You have to do it over and over until it becomes muscle memory. If you teach someone "hand to hand combat" for two 40 minute classes i rekon they will be more of a danger to themselves then whom ever their fighting.

You can take a hand to hand combat instructor coure though. Which is basically YOU teaching two 40 minute classes of hand to hand combat to soldiers who will forget it in 2 days


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## Pikache

I don‘t know about Reg basic infantry training, but there was no hand to hand or formal bayonet fighting classes in Res infantry course.


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## John Nayduk

R.M.C. has a Judo club.  I took my black belt test with a member of that club and from what I’ve heard they are a very good.


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## herbie

Wether or not a bases PSP supports martial arts is dependent on the individual base.  Pet does not support, whereas Valcartier does in a big way.  The CF unarmed cmbt is pretty ineffective.  Many units have developed their on programs.  5RALC has made a system based on karate but i dont know how tactically feasible it is considering it was developed by just one individual as apposed to using the experience and input from a large group of SME‘s. ( its also based on a sport )
Although martial arts are good exersise, remember that they are sports and not designed to be used wearing fighting order and ankle deep in mud.  Maybe someday the CF will realize that hand to hand is a nessesary and interagal part of our job.  Especially when restrained by UN rules of engagement.


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## riddleofsteel

I have read a number of articles recently that touch on this subject, albiet not involving the Canadian Forces. The brass hats in the CF sure could take a few pointers from the Americans and the Israelis on this issue. Some food for thought: approximately 80% of the world‘s population lives in some form of built up area (ranging from tiny hamlets to bustling cities). Hand to hand and FIBUA training is becoming increasingly relevant (not that it wasn‘t relevant in the first place), even vital, in the reality of the current times. 

The 82nd Airborne Division has been implementing a large Brazilian Jiu Jitsu program, including tournaments that are increasing in both size and level of skill.  It is proving to be a great confidence booster as well as a tool for developing aggression and fighting spirit. 

In South Korea, the US Army‘s Second Infantry Division is developing a system of Taekwondo training (with largely the same purpose as the 82nd‘s use of BJJ) that also has the added benefit of increasing the ties between the US forces in the area and the military of South Korea.

If you look to the past, there are also some great examples of hand to hand combat expertise. For example, the techniques developed by Colonels Rex Applegate and William Fairbairn. The Marine Raiders also developed some very effective hand to hand techniques that are not only effective generally, but are ideally suited for combat while wearing full combat kit; these systems are not derived from  sports. These techniques are being kept alive through some pretty dedicated folks. A link that may be of interest is the Gung Ho Chuan Association‘s page 

A lot of Israeli (ie: Krav Maga - sites of interest include  kravmaga.com hisardut.com hssinternational.com kapap.net ) and Russian instructors (by and large claiming to be former Spetznaz, some are supposed to be the real mccoy) are also offering a lot of training programs intended for military/spec ops. 

A lot of reading material on the subject can be found at  Paladin Press.

With such a plethora of choices - and that is just the tip of the iceberg - why on earth is there a lack of effective hand to hand/bayonet/knife/stick/improvised weapon training?


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## Pikache

I know at least two people in my regiment who are CF hand to hand combat instructor qualified. But as to what style they do, I have no idea...


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## CDNBlackhawk

Does the canadian forces teach any hand to hand combat and if so what style is it? Is it effective? any pictures of us training in H to H combat. and how does our Hand to Hand Combat compare to other countries.


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## D-n-A

The Army does have a hand to hand combat course, to take it, you must be either a Infanteer, or a MP.


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## pte anthony

If you want to try some nice close combat hand to hand techniques look for the martial art, wing chun, Bruce Lee practiced it because he was near sighted most techniques in this art put you within half a arms length of the opponent and it is where the exercise sticky hands originates.   :soldier:


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## gi jew

there is some un-armed hand combat training done as an infanteer. mostly with your bayonet.

if you want to learn i would agree with monger go learn a martial art it will help you greatly.


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## D-n-A

if your using a bayonet, that isnt really un-armed combat..


another good martial art is Tae-Kwon Do, this was also taught to Rangers during the Vietnam War


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## gate_guard

In my opinion, for combat effectiveness, taekwondo (and other forms of sport fighting) is completely useless. Your better off taking krav maga or a grappling art.
Don‘t forget guys, if your in a situation where your resorting to hand to hand combat, it‘s do or die and you‘ve most likely ran out of ammo and/or lost use of your rifle. You‘re not going to have time to take off your kit to get comfortable and start pulling off roundhouse kicks. I remember practicing takedowns with lbv, plates, and a flak vest on. I‘d pay to see anyone pull off a jump kick with all that **** on. I‘ve gotten myself into enough scrapes to know that fighting eventually ends up in a big grappling match.


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## CDNBlackhawk

I know thier is a Unarmed combat course that Infanteers can take, But what type of Hand to Hand is it, cant be just Bayonet crap. I was thinking more on the lines of Grapples, take downs, Pressure Points etc.


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## Infanteer

I‘ve broken up enough of Gate Guards scrapes to know that he is right.

I would argue that it is not technique, but sheer aggression that rules the day.  Anyways, if your moving to hand-to-hand combat, you‘re probably already dead.


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## wongskc

Take a look at ninjitsu (sp?) for hand to hand combat.  That one is definately not for sport fighting.  In my short time taking lessons, I was taught very little that would actually leave the other guy breathing afterwards.  And all the moves were designed to end the fight within a handful of moves.


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## Yeoman

I‘ve got my hand to hand qualification. going through to get my knfie to hand, hand to knife, knife to knife qualification soon. it‘s really good stuff to know, but I‘ve yet to see any actual use to any of the stuff I‘ve been taught as of yet.
Greg


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## Infanteer

> going through to get my knfie to hand, hand to knife, knife to knife qualification soon.


Are you sure these qualifications exist in the CF.

As far as I know, hand-to-hand isn‘t a qualification.  Only the Unarmed Combat Instructors course was a qualification that let you instruct various techniques to soldiers.

Can anyone verify this (preferably a Unarmed Combat Qualified NCO?)


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## Pikache

In 31 CBG, some guy ran a knife fighting course. I don‘t think it counts for any military qualifications though...

CF does have a hand to hand combat program of its own style. It‘s kinda combination of many martial arts, but I don‘t like their style of instructing. Too much like drill practice for much practical use.

Uh, Bruce Lee did many martial arts, but he made up his own called jeet kune do. Good stuff.

TKD and karate and etc has its own strengths, but you have to go to a really good school for it. (I took TKD for about 3 years)

In battlefield, if you have to use hand to hand combat, you‘re probably very screwed anyways.

But if you‘re looking for something for self defence against some thugs or whatnot, IMO any martial art can give you the basics to defend yourself against an untrained opponent on one on one situations. If you‘re looking for something more serious, go for something like jeet kune do, which covers 3 fundamentals of fighting, long range (kicks and punches) clich (close range and take downs) and ground (greco roman wrestling stuff).

Deficiency in any of those areas and if you go up against an opponent who knows what he‘s doing, you‘re screwed.

Maximum speed and aggression is always the key.


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## Yeoman

infanteer; I‘m not sure if it is or isn‘t a qualification. I know my hand to hand is though. I‘ll make sure to ask him wether that one is just a civilian or a military qualification. now that I think about it, I‘m more leaning towards that the knife thing isn‘t. but I know my hand to hand is.
RHF; that‘s the course I went through, it‘s good, but it‘s not effective. you learn two moves a night, but you don‘t touch those moves again till the very end of the course, and by then, most people already forget how to do it.
Greg


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## The_Falcon

Any form of a grappling art would be the most effective as most real life fighting is decided either by the first punch, or it winds up on the ground.  Wongskc mentioned "ninjitsu", the correct term would be "ninjutsu" or "ninpo". It is a very effective art form, no sporting competitions involved, you are taught to end a fight as quickly as possible involving techniques that are quite brutal, and at least were I trained for a year (I need to start going again) you praticed at full speed-full contact.  As well it is non-linear in nature (meaning not everything is done in straight line).

Another effective form is Systema (alternatly called "The System" or Russian Martial Arts) it is NOT Sambo.  The leading head instructor or I guess "Grand Master" outside of Russia teaches just outside of Toronto in Thornhill.  From what I have seen and read about it is a truly brutal and effective Martial Art.  

As for the CF you can actually read the Unarmed Combat Manual online if you wish, it is located at

 http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/B-GL-382/004/FP-001/B-GL-382-004-FP-001_E.pdf


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## Yllw_Ninja

How bout a little "Biatch my man ain‘t your baby‘s daddy!" as taught by the Jerry Springer Producers


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## solid1191

its all about defendo - also known as british jujitsu =D, we got 1 of the 2 instructors in the world that are allowed to teach it to teach it at St. Andrews College a few weeks ago ----- verry effective look it up +D


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## D-n-A

Never Fight Fair would be the best.

Like what was said, agression an adrenaline is the main thing you need to win.


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## combat_medic

Infanteer: You‘re right on that one. There is no longer an official "Basic Unarmed Combat" course, but the instructor course is still around. The Basic qualification still exists, but it‘s no longer a formal course. Our Ops WO has the instructor course, and is running an informal Basic qualification. The idea is that once we‘ve completed and can be tested on all the moves and techniques, we‘ll get a UER entry saying that we have the qualification, if not the formal course. Then, it will allow us to take the instuctor‘s course, if the unthinkable happens and they offer the course to a reservist. 

142Highlander: Yes, the general martial art is refered to as Defendo, but you‘re insane if you think there are only 2 people in the world qualified to instruct it. I know personally of a half dozen defendo instructors, and of at least one club in the Vancouver area alone where it‘s taught.


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## Yllw_Ninja

just remember these two things

Its not who wins...its who walks away

and

If its worth fighting for...its worth fighting dirty for


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## MJP

There is a basic course that precedes the unarmed combat instructor.  It is new and was suppose to be taught on Reg Inf BIQs but they found it took to much time.  It is now up to units to run it and qualify personnel.  Right now as it stands there are very few qualified instructors across the board in the CF(although lots have the old unarmed combat instructor course).

As for what it consists of I have no real clue as I‘ve never read the CTP.  However one of the qualified personnel is in my Pl so I will ask him and post the basics here.


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## pte anthony

there is no such thing as fighting dirty or fair if you square off with an opponent or one squares off with you, you fight to win as does he and what has to be done to emerge victorious is done. Wether it be a bar fight or trench fight you fight to win and do what is necessary with the utmost aggression and hostility commit yourself to the fight.   :soldier:


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## Infanteer

> Wether it be a bar fight or trench fight you fight to win and do what is necessary with the utmost aggression and hostility commit yourself to the fight.


Try explaining that in court....


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## Yes Man

I may be a bit in the dark on this one(I‘m not in the army yet), but...Is hand to hand combat what you use when your gun disappears, your bayonet breaks, you forget to bring you trusty knife, your pinned in and there is no one around you except your enemy who‘s gun also disappears, who‘s bayonet also breaks,  who‘s trusty knife has gone missing, and who decides to attack you?


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Yes Man, I was trying as hard as I could to ignore this awful thread but I have to say you summed it up better than I ever could. Thank you,   CHEERS


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## Pikache

IMO one of the point of h2h combat training is not just to teach a fight skill, but also to build up ability to focus aggression during combat.
Kinda like bayonet drill, where the command is ‘kill‘, which really serves no purpose, other than training troops to be aggressive when the time to beat the crap out of the opposition comes.

Hmmm... I think I may have just stepped across the PC zone. Oops.


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## Da_man

I have an army hand to hand combat guide in pdf format...  if anyone can find a server i will upload it.   its 613 kb.


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## CDNBlackhawk

Bruce tell me, whats awful about this thread, and if its so awful DONT post in it!!!


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## Infanteer

CDN Blackhawk, when talking to a member of the community with previous military experience, I recommend you watch your tone.


So far you have 50 posts and all you‘ve done is make alot of noise, despite my repeated requests that you put the radio on recieve for a bit.  I suggest you lay off the send button lest you find your self removed from the net.


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## CDNBlackhawk

Infanteer, please tell me how i have made alot of noise by asking a legitmant question about a hand to  hand course.

2ndly I dont recall any requests by you.
Is this not a public forum, or is their certain rules i have missed about posting about certain topics, I dont think i have crossed any lines here have i, I simply said, If you think its an awful thread dont post in it. I dont see whats wrong with that.

So i dont see where you are comming from here by saying all have made was alot of Noise, I think i have contributed to a good number of threads thus far in a positive way.

Not here looking for an argument, so send me a PM please and tell me what you mean!


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## Infanteer

> 2ndly I dont recall any requests by you.


Your right, I confused you with our last IED on this board.  So, I‘ll give you the same advice as I gave the last guy:
You can‘t receive a message on the radio if your constantly hitting the transmit button....



> Is this not a public forum, or is their certain rules i have missed about posting about certain topics, I dont think i have crossed any lines here have i, I simply said, If you think its an awful thread dont post in it. I dont see whats wrong with that.
> 
> So i dont see where you are comming from here by saying all have made was alot of Noise, I think i have contributed to a good number of threads thus far in a positive way.


This forum has developed a bit of a community of military professionals that like to come here to swap shop with each other.  For some reason, every couple of weeks someone new signs up here and proceeds to hammer every available forum with either dumb questions that have been answered a million times or inane posts that in no way contribute to the conversation, forcing the regulars to sift through it all once again.  It is like some strange drunk showing up and crashing your family dinner.

Sure, the board is open to the public, but notice it is called *"CDNarmy.ca"* and not *"LeftBasicTrainingACoupleYearsAgoAndNowGoingBack.ca"*.  We encourage civilians and potential recruits to come here.  However, we also like it when they lurk for a bit, put the weapons on safe, and  get a lay of the land before charging into every forum of the board.


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## Franko

Getting back to the subject at hand.....

I am currently taking Jiu Jitsu and let me tell all you types out there that think Tae Kwon do is the be all end all martial art.

After 4 months of taking classes 3 times a week lasting 2 hours on average I had a chance of taking on a guy who was a supposed black belt outside of a bar....

I was on him so fast and inside his space he didn‘t have a chance. After slaming him to the ground and snapping a joint he gave up in a hurry...especially when I went for the strangle, eyes rolling in his sockets.

Fighting usually gets to the ground REAL fast. All the swinging limbs in Tae Kwon Do do is give up a lever to break, thustly taking it to the ground where the real damage happens.

It can also be done in FFO, albeit to a greater restraint on your range of motion. See a limb, break it. Find the eyes, gouge them. Throats open, hit it. Got a free hand, claw, hit, gouge, pressure points etc...

I took Shitu Ryu for a number of years when I was younger...not really good in a bar fight. When the fight went to the ground, it took much longer for me to actually get the job done and sort him out. Now it‘s a different story...

As for the latest guy, after his arm was flopping...I called an ambulance and the cops, expecting jail for sure. Because I did the right thing and only defended myself with restraint did I avoid time behind bars so the cops let me go. 

Saw the guy a week later with his arm in a sling, he appologised for being drunk and stupid...while his wife smacked him upside the head. I later found out he is a VIOLENT alcoholic, and has carried a knife most times when he goes out to the bars...so I‘m kinda glad I made it go as far as I did, or I could‘ve been in a world of hurt.   

Regards


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## Infanteer

> It can also be done in FFO, albeit to a greater restraint on your range of motion. See a limb, break it. Find the eyes, gouge them. Throats open, hit it. Got a free hand, claw, hit, gouge, pressure points etc...


Hooah, thats the stuff I like to hear....


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## Franko

I knew you liked it rough but jeeesh!   

Regards


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## Pikache

Too many TKD schools do only the kicking stuff and ignore basic fundamentals of fighting.

*Franko*, the guy was drunk. Surely you can‘t count this fight as a fair test of martial arts.


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## teltech

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb]
> I took Shitu Ryu for a number of years when I was younger...not really good in a bar fight. When the fight went to the ground, it took much longer for me to actually get the job done and sort him out. Now it‘s a different story...
> [/qb]


Ah yes, Shito-Ryu (or my case, Itosu-Kai) - it‘s a fine sport style, but for a down and dirty bar fight, there is some room for improvement. The only thing I can say about TKD is it looks neat.. but so does aikedo. What I see is when your *** is on the line, the only rule is WIN.


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## btk_joker

At our unit, every few weeks, a qualified instructor (dont know if that‘s civi qualified or military) teaches us three or four moves of hand-to-hand (once again, not sure what type). He says that by the end of the year, we will all have our basic level one qualification in hand-to-hand. Just wondering... is that a qualification that would show up as a military qualification?

  :warstory:  J. Lightfoot


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## The_Falcon

I doubt it Hulk, maybe you should ask who he is, what is quals are, and what exactly is he teaching you.  Franko now that‘s what I am talking about.  Ninjutsu, (what I studied) is fairly similar to Jujitsu and Judo, except there are no comps, but it all about fighting to win (within the law of course    ).


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## Franko

> Originally posted by RoyalHighlandFusilier:
> [qb] *Franko*, the guy was drunk. Surely you can‘t count this fight as a fair test of martial arts.      [/qb]


True, but the man moved pretty fast...enough for me to really be worried. Clocked me a couple of times before I got in nice and close. It sobered me up pretty good as soon as I got the first hit on the ol‘ chin...the second one in the ribs.

We were both drunk...him a bit more than me. 

So I can agree it wasn‘t a fully sober fight...but you know when most fights start it isn‘t straight on and sober as a judge type people. It‘s usually someone being a jerk and wants to be the "big man".

He started the fight. I finished it. I was always have been told the fight isn‘t done until the agressor is either unconcious, under control(arm bars or breaks), or worst case......   

Regards


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## Geoff

Hi guys.  First post, been lurking about a year but this is a topic I know something about as I coach martial artists of all levels.  Seems like a good first post topic for me.

First off most martial arts are not trained with any significant level of contact.  Imagine training against an enemy who is always cooperating with you!  For a realistic assessment of what works you need to train / compete against a resisting opponent.  Judo, boxing, wrestling, bjj and a few others are perfect for this.  Some, like WTF TKD do train full contact but have so little to do with an actual fight that the attributes you‘re learning may even have a negative affect on you‘re fighting ability.  The most effective way to test you‘re hand to hand skills is to compete in a combative sport.  Right now mixed martial arts is clearly the king of the pack in that regard (think UFC/Pride or for Cdn. events UCC, AFC, WEF) and this is where you will find the best fighters in the world (hand to hand).  The mysterious kung fu / ninjitsu master would have a tough time lasting a full minute with a competent mma fighter.

Now, that said this type of unarmed combat isn‘t a terribly good thing for military personnel to train.  As previously mentioned if you‘re that close you probably haven‘t done you‘re job.    Training a skill that at best is secondary to the thousands of other things needed to be an effective soldier does not seem a wise decision.  Also the injury rate for a serious combat sports competitor is so high IMO military personnel would be doing themselves and the men around them a disservice as they would likely be ineffective for significant periods due to injury.  

Franko, if I remember correctly you're in Victoria.  Are you training at Peterec's or with Adam Z?  Either way both are great places from what I hear.


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## The_Falcon

You made some good point Geoff, but you have to take into account that the kinda of fighting you are talking about is as close to streetfight you can get in an artificial environmnet. There are differences. 1 from what I seen recently in the UFC competitions is no one wears gi‘s any more as that make you vulnerable to chokes.  Real world unless you are on beach or something chances are you are going to be wearing a shirt. 2 They still have a have ref, real world does not. 3 they still have "rules", no biting, eye gouching. real world does not. 3 they are in a ring with a padded floor, real world does not.  And it is Ninjutsu/Ninpo and the "masters" are not mysterious.


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## Franko

Geoff...I‘m based out of Petawawa, as my Regiment is based out of there. 

Regards


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## Pikache

Heh. Thumb in the eye, knee to the balls, kick to the side of the knee. It‘s all good.    

Since every little fight/sparring situation I just know guys want to try to rape the little Asian boy and want to shoot in and take me to the ground, I just love giving a knee to the face.


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## Enzo

Geoff - Interesting you should say that. I used to train at Peterec‘s but my current school schedule conflicts so I‘m on hiatus. Hoping to return in May.

I learned a lot of fun things in the Infantry, I‘ve personally always been big on pressure points and breaking anything I can get my hands on. People don‘t seem to like that. I‘m not a small guy though (6‘4") and I find that avoiding any time on the ground is beneficial, but if I do end up there, then I grapple and use the techniques I mentioned earlier (pressure/break flailing fingers) to put a stop to any horsing around.

I‘ve experimented w/ Ninjitsu & Hun Fut, but for me Kickboxing is my preferred path. I find that taking the hits really wakes you the **** up in the morning. Incorporating grapples and holds balances things out, and don‘t forget to include the satisfaction that comes from taking aggressions (against CFRC?    ) out upon a bag for awhile.


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## Geoff

Falcon - 1) that‘s true about gi‘s.  IMO you need to train both for effective self defence.  But you need to train with them at full speed, full contact.  Hence my mentioning of bjj (current) and judo (have trained).

2)  ref? - so you train full out to the death?  A ref is there to a) enforce the rules and b) stop a fight if someone is incapable of defending himself.  Granted in the street you don‘t have that but how precisely do you train more effectively?  Kata, bunkai?

3)  biting and eye gouging works great (as do illegals like small joint locks and grabbing a mans‘s nuts) but do not make the mistake in thinking that many non-tested "fighters" make assuming "hey, I‘ll just poke him in the eye if he wants to throw me."  If you‘ve just been double legged, mounted and have elbows raining down in you‘re face none of those things are any use.  A properly trained fighter knows how to do these things.  Clearly, testing oneself should not include maiming a person but in my experience martial artists who don‘t fight full contact have no idea of what real fights are like... especially against a skilled opponent.

Apologies about the "mysterious" comment.  I see you‘re from T.O.  Plenty of places around to test out you‘re belief systems re: martial arts.  If you‘d like I can reccomend a good, friendly school to test things out at.  *Please note this is no challenge.


Franko - cool about Petawawa.  Good bjj out in Ottawa not too mention some sweet judo and sambo.  If you don‘t mind me asking who are you training with?


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## Geoff

Enzo - Peterec‘s guys a super cool.  I‘ve worked doing interviews and commentary for a small show in Edmonton and got a chance to meet Stan and have spend some time with Chris Peak.  Good, tough cats.  I think Chris is about to hit it big in the lhw division.


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## The_Falcon

No, you misunderstood me.  I don‘t suggest people train to the death, or poke out each others eyes.  I was just high lighting the differences between the real world and UFC. And I already now of some schools. I trained at a ninjutsu club for a year and I plan on going back once I get my finances in order, I also plan on checking out Russain Martials Arts in Thornhill.


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## Franko

> Originally posted by Geoff:
> [qb] Franko - cool about Petawawa.  If you don‘t mind me asking who are you training with? [/qb]


I‘m currently training with a Sensi who is deployed here in Bosnia...he intro‘d me to JJ and I‘m loving it, it‘s just a bit hard on the body. 
Don‘t ever remember Shitu-ryu being this hard on me when I was a kid   

His Dojo is.......    Sorry for the smoke effects but I prefer to leave some things private.   

Hope you understand Geoff

Regards


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## gate_guard

Geoff,
To a certain extent, you are right. As soldiers, if we are resorting to h2h combat, the proverbial crap has hit the fan and something has gone seriously wrong. But also, as soldiers, ignoring the possibility that you may have to choke the enemy to death is dangerous. I take this view for a number of reasons:

1) As soldiers, our job is focused aggression. If we are focused, but not aggressive, we lose and die. If we are aggressive, but not focused, we lose and are dangerous to each other. I find this fundamentally identical to your various forms of real world fighting (ie grappling).

2) As soldiers, we have to prepare for every possibility and examining previous conflicts will show that at times, soldiers had to resort to using their bayonets, helmets, and whatever else came in handy. As I‘m sure you know, street fighting rarely follows a script. Neither does war.

3) As soldiers, we have to be desensitized to killing. It is not in our nature to kill other humans (some may disagree). Which is why militaries have spent millions of dollars learning how they can get their soldiers past the psychology burden of killing. Shooting square targets from 100m out won‘t do this. Getting two troops on a mat fighting it out, short of killing each other, in my opinion is very effective in teaching soldiers that war is not pretty. You may have to end up killing a guy face to face.

4) It‘s great for physical conditioning. Ask the Brits about milling.

With regards to your point that practicing h2h fighting could be dangerous, well our job, by it‘s nature, is hazardous to our health. I can think of dozens of situations in training where I can potentially injure myself (and at times, I have). If I were always concerned with injuring my knee, breaking an arm, or getting cut up, I may as well quit right now. Obviously, a certain level of restraint must be instilled so that we aren‘t just injuring each other.

Again, I‘m not saying the military should drop everything and focus on h2h combat. But it should have it‘s place in training, especially the combat arms.


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## Geoff

Franko - no problem.  Totally understand.  Just happy to see someone loving the jits.

Falcon - cool you‘re looking into Sambo (I assume).  My guys (bjj and judo) have always got along really well with Sosnovskikh and team (no one else around so I assume it‘s him or a student of his).  Very good leg locks and really nice guys.

If you‘re in the Thornhill area I highly suggest checking out Shah Franco martial arts.  Shah has been a mentor and a coach of mine for many years and trains everything from professional mma fighters to police hand to hand instructors.
Anyways, getting off topic I suppose.  Cheers.


----------



## The_Falcon

It‘s not Sambo, It‘s called Russain Martial Art(s) or The System or Systema.  It is taught by an ex Spetznaz guy, and it is their (Spetznaz) system of fighting.  It‘s tactics look a little weird but, from what I have seen and read they are quite effective and brutal.  If you want to check it out the website is www.russainmartialart.com

Regards

I Live in Scarborough


----------



## Geoff

Interesting points gate guard.  Not being military I‘m not really sure about what the job entails so I was being on the conservative side.  Personally I would love to see mma (+ gi‘s) being taught to the military but I‘m not sure if it‘s because it makes sense or because my love of mma had clouded my vision.

On the JTF video floating around the net you can clearly see them training mma style.


----------



## Geoff

Falcon - I‘ve trained with Systema guys a few times.  Similar to Krav Maga in fashion although I won‘t pretend to know too much about it.  

My advice is to check out a few schools to see what fits you best.  Rebellion martial arts just opened in Scarborough - I highly reccomend trying a class with them.  Biggest mistake I see most guys make is read about things and make their decisions without actually testing the school out.  I‘m out for a while, gotta get back to work.


----------



## gate_guard

Geoff,
You‘d probably be interested in the US Marines program for martial arts. Check out the following link:

 http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2001/n05162001_200105161.html 

or go to www.marines.com and nav to "warriors" then "martial arts".


----------



## Yllw_Ninja

Anybody have any experience with Muay Thai? I‘ve heard some stuff about it, out of all the martial arts thats the one that clicks with me...and i‘d like to learn it at some point *nods* just wondering how effective it is.


----------



## Geoff

gateguard:  cool link.

Muay Thai is pretty tough stuff and very effective.  It‘s missing the ground game completely but as a striking art it‘s very effective.  Be prepared for lots of swelling and bruising.  Very hard to find a good MT school in Canada but if you can go for it.


----------



## Yes Man

Okay, so I have read a little more about what has been written in this topic and here are things that have to be considered. (note I‘m not in the army yet, and I only have a small bit of marshal arts training.)

You can not compare real fights to fights in UFC.  There are three major reasons for this... 

A) In real life there are no weight classes.  That means if a 300lbs infanteer chooses to attack a 160lbs me, I am going to get killed.

B) Real fights are not fought in the ring.  The effects of grappling drop rapidly when not fought on flat ground, and even more so when there are objects near by.  Now this being the army where there are tons of weapons and other object to strike a person with, taking someone to the ground might not be the best idea. 

C) The aspect of surprise is a big one in a fight; this is something that does not happen in UFC when both fights know when they start.  If you have the chance to hit someone from behind because you snuck up on them, it is a huge advantage.

Even in a fair fight in a ring there really only seem to be three factors.

A)The size of you opponent.
B)The amount of experience you have in full speed combat. (I find this matters more than the art)
C)The amount of motivation.

Now in the army I imagine motivation would be equal, because it's a fight or die situation.  The size of you opponent is something that you can no change.  This makes the amount of experience you have in full speed combat the only real factor you can control.  For the amount of time and training it would take to get a 130lbs soldier to be able to hold his own against a 250lbs soldier, I think it would not be to practical to teach full courses in hand to hand combat in the army.

This is just my opinion though  :rocket:


----------



## crhc

I have have been a Police officer for 12 yrs. I worked alone for almost 4 yrs in a northern community. I have worked with a street drug unit for three years, executing search warrants.I joined CIC a year ago to help keep kids off crack. I have been in a few fights, defending myself from hands, feet, edged weapons, blunt instruments, firearms and viscious animals. I have been shot at half a dozen times, been assaulted several dozen times, been hospitalized twice, but I never lost a fight. ( Thank GOD !!! )

I have had a fair bit of informal training in differnt forms of karate, Philipine martial arts,  Aikido and some tactical training with entries, containment and killing active shooters ( non-politcal correct ) this is a good background. But balls to the wall not accepting defeat is what gets you by when the day is done. But remembering your training and knowing how to practically apply it will save your butt. Train like you fight and fight like you train.

I believe that CF members ( whose occupation may take them in a hostile area ( and Police officers )do not get  enough training for their own safety. What I mean in firearms training more than a couple times a years and unarmed combat traing more than a couple times a year. This stuff should be instinctive because this saves your life.


----------



## tmbluesbflat

2PPCLI was infiltrated in a rear echelon rest area and fought tooth and nail hand to hand, one cook croaked an enemy with a pot lid, the down and dirty guys live, the rest?


----------



## tmbluesbflat

I forgot to mention this was in Korea at Kap Yong, I‘ve forgotten how to spell it, ****!!!


----------



## gate_guard

> Originally posted by Yes Man:
> [qb] (note I‘m not in the army yet, and I only have a small bit of marshal arts training.)
> [/qb]


That says it all.


----------



## winchable

I‘d still prefer a good old fashioned slogging match in a boxing ring, and I‘ve done a few martial arts (Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Bagua-Zhang, Kendo)

Any other boxers here? Nothing quite like the sweet science when it comes to a brawl.


----------



## Franko

Nothing like beating each other into submission...

Look at Muhamed Ali...a true champ.

Too bad he took one too many shots to the head.

Regards


----------



## winchable

He dragged his career a tad far.

Hopefully I‘ll know when to call it quits.
i ish nawt dain bramaged....


----------



## Yes Man

> Originally posted by gate_guard:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Yes Man:
> [qb] (note I‘m not in the army yet, and I only have a small bit of marshal arts training.)
> [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> That says it all. [/qb]
Click to expand...

Not to be rude, because I am pretty naive about this stuff, but could you please correct my inaccuracies?


----------



## bossi

Well, since you ask ... it‘s "martial" arts

Martial:
Adjective
1. (of persons) befitting a warrior; "a military bearing".
2. Suggesting war or military life.
3. Or or relating to the armed forces; "martial law".

Etymology: Martial \Mar"tial\, adjective. [French expression, from the Latin expression martialis of or belonging to Mars, the god of war. Compare to March the month.]. 

Marshal:
Noun
1. A law officer having duties similar to those of a sheriff in carrying out the judgments of a court of law.
2. (in some countries) a military officer of highest rank.

Verb
1. Place in proper rank; of military troops.
2. Arrange in logical order; "marshal facts or arguments".
3. Make ready for action or use; "marshal resources".
4. Lead ceremoniously, as in a procession.

"Marshal" is a name that signifies or is derived from: "a horse", "a servant".


Now, as to the merit of your post and its‘ content - it really didn‘t deserve to be slagged - after all, this is a "discussion" and the presentation of various opinions is encouraged.
But, that‘s just my opinion ...

(and, all I know about hand-to-hand combat is something I was taught a long time ago - if your aim is to kill the other person as opposed to just fighting for fun or sport, they‘ll get the message sooner or later - and, if they‘re not willing to fight to the death, they sometimes decide that fighting you wasn‘t such a good idea ...)


----------



## Yes Man

I stand humbled.


----------



## Marauder

It‘s been mentioned, but remains true nontheless: If you‘re down to just your dukes and Timmy Talibunny without his buddy Kalishnokov, you‘re prolly gonna get ****ed up bad. But if you‘re going down, go down hard. Maximum speed, brutal violence, and unrestrained agression. Take any opening you can and be prepared to get hurt.

On civvy side, the best MMA is Avoid-Fu. Be smart and stay outta situation that could go bad. Like don‘t get dead just because Snake and Ox asked you to stop dancing with their old ladies, and you‘re drunk enough to take exception, and situationally unaware enough to remember you‘re in a biker bar full of Snake and Ox‘s buddies. If that fails and you wind up in the mix, then refer back to speed, violence, agression... you never know what a yahoo who‘s out looking for a fight might be packing. Better tried by twelve, than buried by six, simply because you were worried about Johnny Law when you should have been concerned with the shiv your opponent was carrying and stuck you with after you decided to walk away. If you can‘t avoid the fight or won‘t avoid it, then break the skid and take what comes.


----------



## jbeach95

I take hand-to-hand combat with The Royals Unarmed Combat Team, which was run out of ASU London through 4RCR. It teaches Black Arts, which is a mixture of several techniques. It involved hand-to-hand, hand-to-knife, knife-to-knife, firearm disarming, and sentry takeout.

However, as far as I know, NDHQ and/or brigade HQ wasn‘t too happy us for some reason or another. Eventually, the team was forced to relocate to a place off of the base.

Black Arts Society:
 http://www.blackartssociety.com 

The Royals Unarmed Combat Team:
 http://www.securitytrainingsolutions.com/royals/


----------



## a_majoor

Bringing an old thread back to life:

Martial arts should not be considered as a primary "fighting art", even for the combat arms soldier. As has been pointed out, conditions in the field are very unlike the dojo, and unless practiced constantly, will probably endanger you more than the person you are fighting against.

Martial arts does have a place in the training/PT syllabus, I would argue, for the virtues of teaching focus and concentration. Most martial arts also encourage flexibility and range of motion, which can help prevent injuries at home or work. I currently take Aikido, both open hand and weapons. I enjoy the art and the workout I get, but am not too worried about disarming someone carrying a Katana using Aikido techniques. I am issued firearms for that sort of thing.


----------



## JasonH

If anything if you were to engage hand to hand I'd imagen it to be more of a struggle likely to involve a knife but if it weren't then I'd imagen it be something that'd drop to the ground quick.

Personally when I do get in and have the time I think I'll take up some submission/grappling/wrestling.  As is I already train in boxing and wrestling/Grecko wrestling.  Any fight involving anything outside the sport is most likely to be a kill or be kill, use whatever method to subdue then to land a mortal blow or stab wound.  Best way to do that is to be ontop with a weapon which would involve some sort of wrestling to the ground and submission technique.  That's why you hear martial arts majority of the time unless you're an expert is pretty much useless (say street fight).  Sorry for poor grammar, I'm just writeing what hits me.

-Jason

(P.s. don't take what I say to heart, I'm just a poor gonnabee and nothing more right now).


----------



## JBP

I've been practicing martial arts for about 2.5+years now solidly. I'm a green belt in my type which is Goju-Ryu (Hard-soft) and a "traditional" type of ancient martial arts from WAY back. This originated from a few guys in Okinawa and also originally from Samuri warriors. It's not for modern day combat ops, but if your well versed in it you could sure do some intense damage to someone if you get close enough.

I have the CF Unarmed Combat handbook (Ebook) and the moves from what I can tell ARE effective. If you learn them properly, most people don't even know how to punch properly or to maximum effect believe it or not. I'd say around 60-70% people. I quote that amount because of the way all the new people punch when they first join the Dojo... The moves and style taught by the CF seem to be a mix of boxing and basic grappling/release manuevers. Simple and effective. Of course you shouldn't try Jean-Claude Van Dam stuff if your in full combat gear! A good solid kick and/or punch would start you in the right direction...

You are all correct on one thing, it takes time to become quite proficient at any hand-to-hand combat. The goal is to have the skills ready as a reaction, not a concious action. Example is that they teach boxers (used too) to always fire off a punch every time they are touched/contacted in a fight. Reaction, no thought, make it almost instinct. 

In WW1+2 I imagine there was quite abit of hand-to-hand... Being that the battles got quite close and personal back then. Also Iraq now, going house to house I'm sure some of those Marine Hombres have run into a badguy face to face!

Anyway, just my take.


----------



## Gouki

There is a JiuJitsu (non BJJ) club here on base in Shilo.

As far as combat arts in the CF .. the only closest thing I've seen is the Patricias outside their compound practicing unarmed combat twice a week or so (am unsure of their schedule). My friend told me they use a mixture of everything, a fair deal of muay thai, boxing, judo, jiujitsu and whatever else the unarmed combat instructor decided to include.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

I was sure that there wasnt much covered on this topic as I was fairly familiar with this thread. Sadly, I assumed it stayed on track (and we all know what assume means). Seems its veered towards my topic, so rather than delete my now pointless topic, I'll post the link here. Feel free to reply to either this thread, or my own. I'll be monitoring both

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27454.0.html

Sorry for the bandwidth wastage :


----------



## Gouki

Franko said:
			
		

> Getting back to the subject at hand.....
> 
> I am currently taking Jiu Jitsu and let me tell all you types out there that think Tae Kwon do is the be all end all martial art.
> 
> After 4 months of taking classes 3 times a week lasting 2 hours on average I had a chance of taking on a guy who was a supposed black belt outside of a bar....
> 
> I was on him so fast and inside his space he didn't have a chance. After slaming him to the ground and snapping a joint he gave up in a hurry...especially when I went for the strangle, eyes rolling in his sockets.
> 
> Fighting usually gets to the ground REAL fast. All the swinging limbs in Tae Kwon Do do is give up a lever to break, thustly taking it to the ground where the real damage happens.



I agree with you bigtime. 

I am currently taking Jiujitsu myself. Forgive the butchering of this name, but I think it's something like "booei-jin ryu jiujitsu" - I hope someone recognizes this and says what the correct name is.

Anyhow, I have been going as often as I can, for the last month. I practice it quite a lot as I love grappling/ground fighting and Jiujitsu (this style at least) combines both standing holds (like a wrist lock or the hip throw) with ground fighting techniques so perfectly. TKD, while probably quite good in the pure Korean style, isn't terribly spectacular over here. My friend is a black belt and in all honesty, I am more than convinced I could catch him in a hold and take him down and ground and pound. Not to say TKD is worthless, some of it's kicks are quite effective. However BS moves like the 540 kick are flash moves only and that is totally irrelevent in a true fight. To put it simply, his TKD would be worthless once I shoot him (not with a gun...) and gain dominance over him and proceed to mangle his limbs or even something simple like a collar choke would disable him as he has no experience at all with that stuff.

Someone also asked about muay thai. I took muay thai for 9 months, twice a week for 1 1/2 each night. It impressed me beyond all words. Muay thai is a vicious, brutal martial art with a rich cultural and spiritual aspect to it. I love elbows and knees, knees in particular. Not much has scared me more than being caught in a tight muay thai clinch and knowing that those knees are going to shot at you any second. The conditioning is supreme and the moves are not-flashy. Everything you learn in muay thai can be applied in a street fight. Muay thai has left such a mark on me that I have plans to travel to either Rawai muay thai camp or Kiat Busaba in Thailand and learn it in its pure form, and hopefully have a Buddhist monk bless my mongkhon.

My adivce? Take muay thai, if you can.


----------



## a_majoor

Going through all these threads, I noticed no one has mentioned the potential effects of body armour and equipment (webbing/tac vests) on the martial artist. Certainly it would make both offensive and defensive moves difficult by restricting the range of motion, although the "defender" might decide to let the armour do some of the work.

I will admit I do not know all of these arts mentioned above, being only familier with Shotokan Karate and Aikido, but I would only attempt Aikido takedowns if I was kitted out and someone attacked me, since I would be less likely to get tangled up in my kit. (Of course, *with* my kit, I have several options, like using my helmet as an improvised bludgeon)


----------



## Kal

a-majoor - your comments are spot on.  What many martial artists fail to realize is that, what works perfectly in the dojo, on a padded floor while wearing a gi (martials arts uniform) doesn't always work so great on the side of a mountain or on the stairs in a house while wearing combat boots and 100lbs of kit.  

As to say tae kwon do is useless, well that's just plain ignorance.  a friend of mine who has a black belt in this style and who also practises Brazillian JJ stumbled upon an old TKD book 20 odd years ago, and it had many of the same techniques and ground fighting as BJJ does.  The problem with modern day martial arts is that generally it's too sport/art oriented and it's original purpose is lost.  Case in point, why is it when you go to some martial arts clubs you do the whole kick and punch thing and work all your forms and techniques for 1.5 hours then for 15 minutes at the end of the class you practise 'self-defence'?  Isn't all suppossed to be self-defence?  I don't mean to say martial arts is useless, but if it is to be practised for self-defence or combat, train like like it.  I was attending a hand-to-hand combat seminar a couple years ago and we had this one woman who came out and asked what she should wear.  One of the instructors told her, her street clothes, and she was floored by the response the said she never thought to train that way, seeing as it would make the most sense anyways.  yeah she was a black belt, too......  

To say something like BJJ is the best though, isn't quite right either.  i forget which Gracie said it, but he said when asked how he felt BJJ has evolved and how everyone is doing it, that he was disappointed that only the sport application was being practised, and that you have black belts in BJJ that have no idea of the practical or weapons part of it......


----------



## Kal

Oh forgot one thing.

Franco - I bet you feel really good about screwing someones limb and life up now by "snapping" it, since it was so cool of you to do such a thing for no real good reason other than your ego and to tell the story to your buddies.  You're the exact type of person who shouldn't be taught such techniques, and if you ever stepped into a real seminar or class with grown-ups, you would be tossed in a heart beat....


----------



## Gouki

I see what you're saying Kal.

While muay thai in Thailand has (for the most part .. except maybe Fairtex) retained its traditions and spiritual aspects that make muay thai a martial art and not some other sport ... here in north america, the martial art is going down a path I'm not overly fond of. 

When I went to see a fight night in muay thai in Winnipeg, there were near topless girls everywhere, alcohol flowing throughout the entire place, guys coming out of the lockerroom as if it was WWE (god I hate the WWE) talking smack and making these retarded "badass" gestures (I swear they all had tourette syndrome) and to top it off a really crappy recording of the ram muay music played during the Canada vs America (OOH HOW ORIGINAL AND EXCITING) final match.

It just saddens me to see muay thai degraded in such a way over here.


----------



## JBP

Marauder said:
			
		

> It's been mentioned, but remains true nontheless: If you're down to just your dukes and Timmy Talibunny without his buddy Kalishnokov, you're prolly gonna get ****ed up bad. But if you're going down, go down hard. Maximum speed, brutal violence, and unrestrained agression. Take any opening you can and be prepared to get hurt.
> 
> On civvy side, the best MMA is Avoid-Fu. Be smart and stay outta situation that could go bad. Like don't get dead just because Snake and Ox asked you to stop dancing with their old ladies, and you're drunk enough to take exception, and situationally unaware enough to remember you're in a biker bar full of Snake and Ox's buddies. If that fails and you wind up in the mix, then refer back to speed, violence, agression... you never know what a yahoo who's out looking for a fight might be packing. Better tried by twelve, than buried by six, simply because you were worried about Johnny Law when you should have been concerned with the shiv your opponent was carrying and stuck you with after you decided to walk away. If you can't avoid the fight or won't avoid it, then break the skid and take what comes.



After reading through a good portion of this thread, THIS here is the best advice I've seen yet! I'm no black belt but I've been in Butokukai Goju-Ryu traditional karate for almost 3 yrs and the people who win the tournaments are the one's who don't use the fancy crap like the "540 Lightning Back kick".... Etc.... As one saying goes, "Keep it simple stupid!"... Use the most effective and simple moves with brute force. As Marauder said above, maximum speed, brutal violence and unrestrained aggression will show through.

Also initiative IS a big factor, first person to land a decent punch or kick is many times last person left standing. I know this from having been in many fights myself, USE BOTH FISTS! Don't punch with just 1, use every availible weapon to you.

NO MARTIAL ART is the "end all be all" or the "best" one... They are all good, just different and used for different applications. As long as you excel in any type of martial art and have been in a couple fights you could probably handle your own against an equal opponent with similar training IF.... IF... You maximize your aggressive instincts and don't back down. Don't be afraid to smash some guy in the face and bust his cheekbone or jaw. Attitude is everything.

My Sensei always goes on about 3 levels of combat:

1.) Being able to avoid/block an attack
2.) Being able to avoid/block and attack and simultanously counter-attack
3.) Not be there in the first place - The ultimate defence

Our motto is "Peace over Power" even though it's a traditional ancient Okinawan/Japanese martial art.

Joe


----------



## Kal

Hey, just wanted to appologize to all and any that may have felt burned or disrespected by what I said.  I stand by what I said, but didn't go about saying it properly.  Just have seen in the past a few people gotten seriously injured for no good reason and the comments made, got me a little hot.


----------



## Slim

MikeL said:
			
		

> The Army does have a hand to hand combat course, to take it, you must be either a Infanteer, or a MP.



Hey all

Just wanted to clear this issue up. I don't think that the above statement is the truth.

In the Int Branch I and several others had taken the course in UC that leads to the instructors course, which our CO of the time helped develop.

I know that other trades as well have taken this program.

As for the MP's IT would be something entirely different that they have taken as a military combat art and a police joint-restrain system would be years apart in terms of application, level of force being used and the amount of force being applied, as well as very different techniques. If you took a military system into a court of law and told the Judge that you'd used it to "bring someone to a halt" as it were you would almost certainly be charged yourself. Way too much force being used!

The course that I took was intended to be able to disarm and kill an apponent as fast as possible, while taking minimal damage to yourself.

Just my .02

Slim

P.S. I also have roughly 14 years in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and have loved every minute!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

....and, once again, I will add for those "type-A's" out there, there is no better system than using your head and not putting yourself in a situation. 
  IE..."Yes, Sir, you are correct, in fact I made love to a goat just yesterday, have a nice day"......This is not always possible but I don't even need my second hand to count the number of bar fights I've been in in my life.[and I may have spent considerable time in them ]


----------



## Franko

Kal said:
			
		

> Franco - I bet you feel really good about screwing someones limb and life ....



Not at all. I didn't know what you were talking about until I re-read the entire thread...bad memory.

Anyways.....the guy is now fine and I see him from time to time around. It was over a year ago and as far as his doctor is concerned...I guess it's healed. He's now a recovering alcoholic and getting treatment...so he says.

Getting back to the situation. 

He's 6'4 ish and drunk....I bump into him and appologise....I here mumbles and next thing I see is a fist headed my way...see a few stars then feel pain in ribs.......

What did you want me to do? Ask for an appology? I squared off and started blocking for all I was worth and finally got in close and defended myself.

Know what it's like seeing a man that size coming at you when your 5' 7 ? Then I find out after the fact he normaly carries a knife.....

Yep.....I guess I did the WRONG thing....and I should be kicked out of my dojo for doing what I was trained to do....

defending myself.....maybe I should get out of the forces too.....

I might defend myself or my buddies while on tour.

Regards


----------



## Gouki

How dare you mess up someone who attacked you over nothing 

you sir are a monster


----------



## Franko

Sigh......

I guess so....   :

Regards


----------



## JBP

> Slim
> 
> P.S. I also have roughly 14 years in Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu and have loved every minute!




Hey Slim, I thought true Ninjutsu was illegal in Canada due to it's purpose and implicit abilities? Also, I thought that only a father would teach a son etc etc etc.... I have never met or heard of anyone who has studied it so all I know about it is rumors with the ole' smoke and mirrors from people... 

Not knockin' ya cause I know your a legit and good guy but just VERY curious!!!

Joe


----------



## Kal

As I said, I made a hasty statement without furthing researching the situation or individual.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but one cannot always act according to the mantra of "it's what I was trained to do".  I practice knives combatives, if some teenage kid comes up to me and mouths off and gives me a push and a punch, do I slot him because it is what I train?  I believe in applying necessary force givin the particular situation.  I also believe that if serious or even deadly force is warranted then one should not feel bad for using it. 


			
				Steve said:
			
		

> How dare you mess up someone who attacked you over nothing
> 
> you sir are a monster



It's rather ironic that this sarcastic remark, actually has much basis with my statement.  One shouldn't mess someone or their life up over nothing and I believe many would agree with me.  Although one may heal, there will be little things that won't be same for them again.  I'm not saying the oweness is on one for anothers actions, but are for their own.  Force Necessary.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

Kal said:
			
		

> As I said, I made a hasty statement without furthing researching the situation or individual.  I'm not saying you are wrong, but one cannot always act according to the mantra of "it's what I was trained to do".  I practice knives combatives, if some teenage kid comes up to me and mouths off and gives me a push and a punch, do I slot him because it is what I train?  I believe in applying necessary force givin the particular situation.  I also believe that if serious or even deadly force is warranted then one should not feel bad for using it.
> It's rather ironic that this sarcastic remark, actually has much basis with my statement.  One shouldn't mess someone or their life up over nothing and I believe many would agree with me.  Although one may heal, there will be little things that won't be same for them again.  I'm not saying the oweness is on one for anothers actions, but are for their own.  Force Necessary.



If that kids got a knife out, I say gut him like a fish. I've had knives pulled on me, and I can say without a doubt that with or without training, I  would have went for the throat if I had a knife as well. Luckily with a little persuasion and intimidation, the guy backed off and felt like it wasnt the right night to take a chance with someone willing to spar against him, with a knife. Its hurt or be hurt, and I've been hurt enough to know which one I'd prefer. In your case, you drop the stupid punk with everything you've got and be on your way. Serves him right...


----------



## Jarnhamar

I was in taekwondo for a while. I like it as a sport but not really a from of self defense, especially for the military or what i would imagine to be the police force.

Taking aikido i'm really impressed with the martial art, it's philosophy and what i'm learning from it. (Early Steven segal looks bad ass, not so much in his later movies heh) 
It seems like the most, as far as i'm learned on the subject, practical thing to take for soldiers.



> I'm not saying you are wrong, but one cannot always act according to the mantra of "it's what I was trained to do".   I practice knives combatives, if some teenage kid comes up to me and mouths off and gives me a push and a punch, do I slot him because it is what I train?


I'm tempted to believe there is a difference between a soldier on operations (?) defending himself from an assault and some kids comming up to you being mouthy, and your using a knife?   Apples and oranges, no?


----------



## Kal

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> I'm tempted to believe there is a difference between a soldier on operations (?) defending himself from an assault and some kids comming up to you being mouthy, and your using a knife?  Apples and oranges, no?



  Apples and oranges indeed, but what one trains for on ops is different (generally) from training for the street.  I don't have any reservations to slot the enemy who directly or indirectly is trying to harm myself or others, but I can't pull out a hunting rifle and 'close with and destroy' the kid vandalizing property, or the drunk who doesn't want to leave.  Right?



			
				Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> If that kids got a knife out, I say gut him like a fish. I've had knives pulled on me, and I can say without a doubt that with or without training, I would have went for the throat if I had a knife as well. Luckily with a little persuasion and intimidation, the guy backed off and felt like it wasnt the right night to take a chance with someone willing to spar against him, with a knife. Its hurt or be hurt, and I've been hurt enough to know which one I'd prefer. In your case, you drop the stupid punk with everything you've got and be on your way. Serves him right...



  Well, I'm glad to hear you weren't seriously injured in your knife encounter.  What one also has to realize is, is that many a time someone will pull a knife just for intimidation with no intention of seriously using it.  You can usually tell when someone doesn't have the commitment to use it either, body language, voice tone, that sort of thing.  Now, if someone did pull a knife out on me and was going to, or was using it already, it wouldn't be a good day out for them.  As to dropping the "stupid punk with everything you've got", can't really do that either.  If they're just mouthing off, no use sending him to the hospital and you to the courthouse.  I like to train by what am I morally, ethically and legally able to do for any given situation.  If someone decided to pull a knife to scare me away, legally, I could probably get away with maiming and/or deadly force, but if this person is scared to the bone, shaking and voice cracking, almost ready to cry, would I morally and ethically be in the right to kill or maim them?


----------



## Fusaki

> What one also has to realize is, is that many a time someone will pull a knife just for intimidation with no intention of seriously using it.



A knife (method of inflicting life threatening harm) displayed in an aggressive manner (a clear enough sign of intent) in close proximity to the target victim (the means of employing the knife) is all that is required to respond with deadly force.

Whether the punk was just trying to intimidate you or not is irrelevant. You're not a mind reader, and you arn't expected to risk your life by taking chances. If you're gonna to play with fire, you're gonna get burned.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

Its a matter of dealing with the consequences. If someone has the gusto to have a go at me with a knife in the first place, I have no problem with doing what I want to them. Once they raise that blade, they've immediatly accepted anything that happens to them then and there be it consciously or not. They've taken that risk, and need to accept what comes of it. Now this is in a severe case, you're general hand to hand street fight is a different matter. Act accordingly to the situation, if you're on top...why break his arm when you can just beat him? When Im on top, I've even been known to avoid the noise so not to break it. With that in mind, if Im on the bottom I have no problem breaking something, and I would expect the same from my opponent.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> Apples and oranges indeed, but what one trains for on ops is different (generally) from training for the street.   I don't have any reservations to slot the enemy who directly or indirectly is trying to harm myself or others, but I can't pull out a hunting rifle and 'close with and destroy' the kid vandalizing property, or the drunk who doesn't want to leave.   Right?



I don't really understand where your going with this my friend?   I can't drive my truck into someone giving me the finger....?


Also, if I recall correctly, someone's training in martial arts cannot be held against them in a case of self-defense/causing assault?
Wether i use the touch of death quivering palm attack being trained in kung-fu for 13 years, or i just bash someone on the head with a rock and put them in a comma, I'm just as accountable.


----------



## Kal

Let's throw this one out there.  A 5'2", 100lbs female that's balling her eyes out because she's having a bad day, she pull's a knife to get you to step off.  Do you slot her?  

A young teenage boy of 5'6" and 130 lbs, that's wants to scare people and holds and waves his 2" knife by two fingers saying non challantly "I cut you man, I cut you"  Do you kill him?

Working security in the emergency dept. of a hospital, the drunk guy is cut open already and needs medical attention comes in, thrashes around and pulls of his swiss army knife.  Kill him?

A friend or family member that has a little too much to drink and gets a little too wild, or suffers from emotional instability breaks a bottle open or grabs the steak knife, do you maim and/or kill them?

Doing a one-on-one with a psych. patient in the mental health facility, pulls a improvised edged weapon.  Do you kill them?

Now, I'm 6'1" and 225ish, if I go to court over any of these, how do the jurors see it?  I work in security, what are my liabilities.  Like I said though, if someone really does want to hurt or kill me and I am morally and legally able to kill or maim them, then I will.  No, none of us are mind readers, will at least I'm not, but there are tells (verbal and physical) that people have that elude to what their and your situation is.

By the way, if you answered no to any of the above questions, then you must agree that killing someone just because they pull a weapon is not enough to kill them.


----------



## bojangles

Che said:
			
		

> I'd still prefer a good old fashioned slogging match in a boxing ring, and I've done a few martial arts (Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Bagua-Zhang, Kendo)
> 
> Any other boxers here? Nothing quite like the sweet science when it comes to a brawl.



Che,

I am an amateur boxer. I have been boxing since 1995, and previous to that I have obtained my 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan Karate. My 1st dan in Judo. I have been in martial arts since 14 yrs of age and in 95, decided to try a change of pace, hence taking up boxing. After reading all of these posts and trying hard to restrain myself from replying on many of them, all I can say is that...no martial art is "the best" or "most effective". They all have thier strong and weak points. 
Also, it all depends on the situation you are in. If I am in a stand up close ranged fight, my boxing skills are what is going to help me, the minute this fight goes to the ground, screw the boxing, I am going to use Jiu jitsu and judo techniques. Take what works from each and everything that is offered by ALL martial arts and you will be the best fighter you can be.

Bojangles


----------



## Kal

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> I don't really understand where your going with this my friend?  I can't drive my truck into someone giving me the finger....?
> 
> Also, if I recall correctly, someone's training in martial arts cannot be held against them in a case of self-defense/causing assault?
> Wether i use the touch of death quivering palm attack being trained in kung-fu for 13 years, or i just bash someone on the head with a rock and put them in a comma, I'm just as accountable.



I'm just saying that, what one's training of force for an op is going to be different for the street, and they usually can't be the same.  As to the legalities, sure the law says it can't be held against them, but what does the judge or jurors think when they hear that you were fighting in self-defence and you hit them in the head with the stick lying on the ground or that you are an expert martial artist with 20 plus years of experience that went to the seminar teaching the death touch and you happen to use it.  In all your martial arts experience you weren't able to put that person out without killing them.  Or that you're just a wacko?


----------



## Kal

bojangles said:
			
		

> After reading all of these posts and trying hard to restrain myself from replying on many of them, all I can say is that...no martial art is "the best" or "most effective". They all have thier strong and weak points.
> Also, it all depends on the situation you are in. If I am in a stand up close ranged fight, my boxing skills are what is going to help me, the minute this fight goes to the ground, screw the boxing, I am going to use Jiu jitsu and judo techniques. Take what works from each and everything that is offered by ALL martial arts and you will be the best fighter you can be.
> 
> Bojangles



Words of wisdom from Bojangles


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I also fail to see how most of this stuff is going to help you when your all geared up with your TV, body armour including plates, full ammo load out, weapons, helmet etc. Let's hope it's also not during winter ops while your wearing your snowshoes. :


----------



## Franko

Kal said:
			
		

> I believe in applying necessary force givin the particular situation.   I also believe that if serious or even deadly force is warranted then one should not feel bad for using it.



I'm glad we at least agree on one thing.....

But according to you I did the wrong thing. I defended myself to the point of immobilising and stopping the fight by rendering an opponent unconcious....the calling the cops and an amulance on top of that.....

Obviuosly you've never been in that sort of situation....and if you are 6' 4 as you said you are.... 

Regards


----------



## Fusaki

> Insert Quote
> I also fail to see how most of this stuff is going to help you when your all geared up with your TV, body armour including plates, full ammo load out, weapons, helmet etc. Let's hope it's also not during winter ops while your wearing your snowshoes.



Roger that

I have a bit of experience in Mauy Thai, Brazilian Jiu Jutsu, and have spent a reasonable amount of time in Full Fighting Order. The fact of the matter is that there is a HUGE difference between martial arts fighting, street fighting, and battlefield fighting. Even particularly brutal forms of No Holds Barred/Vale Tudo/Mixed Martial Arts tournaments do not factor in your street opponent's buddies and the beer bottles they're going to swing at you. Throw in ballistic plates, weapon, a weeks worth of IMPs, and narrow hallways of a FIBUA environment and your traditional martial arts won't help one bit.


----------



## Kal

Franko said:
			
		

> I'm glad we at least agree on one thing.....
> But according to you I did the wrong thing. I defended myself to the point of immobilising and stopping the fight by rendering an opponent unconcious....the calling the cops and an amulance on top of that.....
> Obviuosly you've never been in that sort of situation....and if you are 6' 4 as you said you are....
> Regards



     As I said before, I didn't look into the situation and the person before expressing my opinion.  I sometimes tend view subjects and situations through my eyes and training.  What you did wasn't wrong for you, but it may be for some others.  With my type of training and experience, I would have done something different than breaking a limb.  As you said I have never been in a situation like that, well you're right, and I never want to be, nor do I want anyone I know to be there.  However, I have had to use my training for the job I am currently in.  I never said I was 6'4, it was 6'1, but I'm not really sure why you included that in your arguement.  I merely said it because it I go to court over something, the judge and/or jury will look at my size as a factor, either positive or negative.


----------



## Franko

Ahhhhh seen.   

Regards


----------



## downinOZ

Bringing back an old thread...again

One of the best things that martial arts does teach is confidence in one's own body.  Admittedly, that can be a setback in some cases.  As a system of fighting, we were given a day-long demo by a Vancouver police officer - ex Patricia.  The system was called Defendo, and was developed with the Canadian Army in mind - wearing boots, greens, helmet, and webbing.  Painfully, I would support it as an extremely effective, easily learnt, and exciting system.  

As an engineer instructor, I remember specifically telling several groups of candidates that their martial arts don't matter at all.  In that slightly immature phase of life, that might have been very true, simply based on self-confidence and drive to be the toughest.  However, retrospectively, the skills someone with 1 year of current martial arts training may have over someone with NO martial arts training is definitely not something really worth arguing over.  I currently am training in a karate style simply for fitness, and would agree that muscle memory is the...only point.  

Anyone heard of SCARS?


----------



## Kal

Yeah, I've heard of SCARS, it's all marketing and from I've been told by guys that have actually been to the seminars for it, it's not even that effective.  There is a high reliance on pressure point tactics that, I feel, have no place in 'combat'.  Try to tap someone three times in the arm and then pinch their elbow will work only on someone that knows about the system.  I have a friend, that went t a seminar and he said he didn't feel a thing and it just pissed him off.  Trying the put an arm-bar while on the ground is stupid, all the enemy has to do is pull another and it get's ugly way fast.  Think about, most martial arts are taught from a sporting aspect which is IMO garbage for street or combat fighting.  So I'm on the ground, and trying to do an arm-bar, I'm using both my hands and arms and legs trying to sink this 'submission' while he still has three limbs to fight back with?  Then his buddy/s come to soccer ball kick you in the head while you're too focued on the arm-bar.  Make any sense?  Now I'm all for joint locks/cranks if youre working in some type of low intensity security position, but for street and combat survival, instead of trying to subdue, why not just break the arm,wrist,knee, what have you.  

     I've never actually seen Defendo done in person, but from the video clips off their site, it looks like a good system.  As someone said earlier in this thread, in street fights the matial arts seems to go to sh*t.  It's not that the technique is bad, but how the technique is taught, along with the mindset to drop someone if needed.   For true combat/street effectiveness, it has to be brutally and violently effective with a high enphasis on striking and ending the fight quickly and with the most possible damage to the enemy and dont forget all the stuff 'outlawed' in martial arts tournaments should be used.

Check out www.hockscqc.com  I'm currently an intructor for several of the fields he teaches and would like to see something like that incorporated in a CF hand-to-hand system.  IMHO


----------



## Hunter911

Personally i know a couple guys from here in halifax who have got their hand to hand instructers courses. I asked them the same thing when i was talking to them, and they said that "when your out in the field the last thing you want to be thinking about is whats the right way to kick a guy when hes comming at you with a knife. Its best to stab him anyway" They also said hand to hand was a good skill to have just incase anyway.


----------



## Kal

Hunter911 said:
			
		

> Personally i know a couple guys from here in halifax who have got their hand to hand instructers courses. I asked them the same thing when i was talking to them, and they said that "when your out in the field the last thing you want to be thinking about is whats the right way to kick a guy when hes comming at you with a knife. Its best to stab him anyway" They also said hand to hand was a good skill to have just incase anyway.



     It's funny you should bring up that point.  I have a friend who's father was a former member of our ERT team.  She said, that he would come home and tell them stories how he would kick a knife out of someones hand.  :  I has to be one of the dumbest things to do.  If someone is intent on hurtng you, then they will if you practice tactics such as that.  It's also interesting that the other day I was playing with my mom and she was holding one of my practice knives.  I pretended to kick it out of her hand and she simulated cutting my ankle/leg, and she doesn't have any training...  

     Hand-to-hand and hand-to-knife techniques also have to be different, you can't do the same set of tactics for the two different senarios.  I sometimes train with some guys that go to the Combat Hapkido classes and they are not taught a lot of counter-knife stuff.  As soon I pull out of trainer knife, they end up getting stabs and slashed, in vital areas mind you, a dozen times because they think that using a hand2hand technique is the same for a knife attack...


----------



## JBP

downinOZ said:
			
		

> However, retrospectively, the skills someone with 1 year of current martial arts training may have over someone with NO martial arts training is definitely not something really worth arguing over.  I currently am training in a karate style simply for fitness, and would agree that muscle memory is the...only point.
> 
> Anyone heard of SCARS?



No, it's probably the only "point" for you. Although you're mostly correct that someone with about 1 yr of training isn't TOO much better equipped than someone who is naturally a good fighter by nature, someone with a few more years (say 3+) can be quite a difficult person to attack if they're used to full-speed combat and they're not training in some competition based martial arts...

The blackbelts in my type of martial arts could quite literally beat someone to pieces, they could kill somebody easily. I'm a green belt (advanced mid-level) and I can hold my own decently but when I spar one of them, it doesn't take long for them to take me out. Sometimes quite easily. Most of the blackbelts mind you have been practicing for... Give or take, 3-5 years minimum, with many of them competition winners and having been in for 7-10 years also.

Although there is no single great "end-all-be-all" martial art, if you want to seriously learn to defend yourself from an attacker(s), I would suggest any "traditional" martial art from Japan or China mainland. The older the better, the ancient arts were designed for practical use, not competition. If you get my point... 

Joe


----------



## Kal

R031 Pte Joe said:
			
		

> No, it's probably the only "point" for you. Although you're mostly correct that someone with about 1 yr of training isn't TOO much better equipped than someone who is naturally a good fighter by nature, someone with a few more years (say 3+) can be quite a difficult person to attack if they're used to full-speed combat and they're not training in some competition based martial arts...



        It depends on the amount of training time put in during each training session, per week, month, year.   If one trains once a week for 2 hours, compared to the same individual who trains 5 times a week for 4 hours, all things else being the same, who would be more effective?   



			
				R031 Pte Joe said:
			
		

> The blackbelts in my type of martial arts could quite literally beat someone to pieces, they could kill somebody easily. I'm a green belt (advanced mid-level) and I can hold my own decently but when I spar one of them, it doesn't take long for them to take me out. Sometimes quite easily. Most of the blackbelts mind you have been practicing for... Give or take, 3-5 years minimum, with many of them competition winners and having been in for 7-10 years also.



        This partly goes back to the pyschology of the fight, sparring is not a good indicator of actual fighting capability.   If going into a fight and one's thinking is that, well he's a blackbelt, he must be deadly and I'm only a yellow belt all he has to do is throw a good punch and I'm done, well you're probably right and he will most likely beat you.   However, if I am thinking, "the first time that arm is coming up I'm going to break it and rip it off, guage his eyes and slam his head off the pavement several times" and actually intent on doing it, you may very well do it.   Fighting is about 80% psycological and 20% physical skill and atributes.   Remember, in competition, is nothing near what actual fighting/combat is.   One knows that their opponent can and can't do and where they can and can't hit and has a choice if they want to be there and knows that if it gets too bad the ref will stop it and there is no real risk of serious injury or death.   Here's your homework Joe, next time you have to spar a blackbelt, get it in your mind that you will destroy them and that you wont let them have the chance of them beating you, and go to work on them in the most devasting fashion.   Then report back to us how it went.



			
				R031 Pte Joe said:
			
		

> Although there is no single great "end-all-be-all" martial art, if you want to seriously learn to defend yourself from an attacker(s), I would suggest any "traditional" martial art from Japan or China mainland. The older the better, the ancient arts were designed for practical use, not competition. If you get my point...



        Not neccessarily so, many traditional forms were developed do to the culture and environment of the time and are not neccessarily the way one will be fighting in today's times.   Many Japanese styles were developed for/from the kneeing position because their culture at the time they kneeled all the time.   It was also an insult to punch someone in the face, they would only punch to the body and combat on the battlefiend was one-on-one with someone of the same rank and status as yourself.   Today people will do anything to win a fight and will sometimes involve multiple attackers, the only reason I like 'traditional' forms is that it was taught that the techniques and tactics were going to be used for war and they trained the mind to act accordingly...


----------



## sigtech

As with anything the best way to defend yourself is K.I.S.S Keep it simple stupid.
Teach someone to do a long drawn out Kata then brake it down and teach them step by step by step , they get out on the street and will get killed, unless they have been training for years and years

Teach someone a good basic punch and a good basic low kick then teach them to throw them with intent and they will be able to defend them self's. Look at Krav Maga simple fast mean and it works.


----------



## Embarkcuis

Hi all,
I’m a CF hopeful, and I was wondering would any non-lethal close combat expertise come in handy in a peace keeping mission?  I’m very surprise that the Canadian Military does not offers its GI s more unarmed combat training, I can’t help but think if I were to join the army, that the training just wouldn’t be enough to satisfy me.   

Would the majority of you agree that I ought to take some Martial Art training before I join the force?  Or should I just rely on that trusty rifle that CF will supply me once I get there?  Are the military even deadly without the guns?  Could anyone of you defend yourself comfortably if your weapon say… got jam or something and you are left to resort to your martial prowess?  What happen if you got captured, and your only way out was to take someone out with your bare hands and take his weapon that way?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Embarkcuis,

Please go back and read this thread for your answers. While your in reading mode, please peruse the guidelines, in their entirety, also.

Welcome to Army.ca


----------



## MacKenzie1NSH

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Throw in ballistic plates, weapon, a weeks worth of IMPs, and narrow hallways of a FIBUA environment and your traditional martial arts won't help one bit.


Not at all, you would be lucky to get a few punches off at them, let alone a whole offensive of martial arts


----------



## Fusaki

Further to that, I'd say the most practical way to subdue and arrest a belligerent is to enlist the help of a buddy (hopefully a fairly large buddy) and give the sucker the good old "high/low". Chuck Norris ain't got nuthin on two troops made heavier with FFO hitting him top and bottom like a freight train. >

And if for some reason you've been surprised and are rolling on the ground with the enemy, your main goal should be to break free so your buddies can either bounce on top of him or Tap Tap (as Kev would put it).

You wouldn't go into a firefight by yourself, so why should this be any different?


----------



## Embarkcuis

sorry about the post earlier...

Well I just thought ground soldiers are expected to be able to kill someone (if the situation calls for) using their bare hands with professional expertise.
But I guess realistically, that's the stuff for our country's SF, I wonder if even the JTF2 knows how to do that.
I guess I wouldn't shy getting a few military MA training before I join the force this summer.
For everything else, there is :threat:


----------



## Franko

Embarkcuis said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I’m a CF hopeful, and I was wondering would any non-lethal close combat expertise come in handy in a peace keeping mission?  I’m very surprise that the Canadian Military does not offers its GI s more unarmed combat training, I can’t help but think if I were to join the army, that the training just wouldn’t be enough to satisfy me.
> 
> Would the majority of you agree that I ought to take some Martial Art training before I join the force?  Or should I just rely on that trusty rifle that CF will supply me once I get there?  Are the military even deadly without the guns?  Could anyone of you defend yourself comfortably if your weapon say… got jam or something and you are left to resort to your martial prowess?  What happen if you got captured, and your only way out was to take someone out with your bare hands and take his weapon that way?



Wow is this ever an old thread....thought it died eons ago   ;D

As for actual hand to hand combat course there is one offered from time to time, at least there has been here in Pet.

The problem is getting slated on the courses. With deployments and training along with exercises there really isn't enough time for most of the units to allow it.

We try to get some of our more senior troops put on the instructor's course so they can come back to the unit and train the troops when there is time.

But as Wonderbread stated....we don't go into a fight alone.

Regards


----------



## C-2humper

Having been raised outside of Glasgow and being forced to fight whether I cared to or not,then emigrating into a different social environment,I found that a lot of what I had learned to be quite usefull as it had been natural and not drilled.I've been jumped twice,attacked with a knife and sorted out by my good mate(room) Monty O ,a boxer who taught me all about speed and the ground.On the other hand  having had to wade in more times than I cared to(in defense of others mostly, I found that prior knowledge of pressure/weak points and sheer outrage at having to risk my freedom and my opponents life to be great incentives.Ultimately,various come alongs, grabbing them by the throat/hair/nuts and taking control of the situation is sufficient with implied threat of imminant mayhem.Most of what has been said here IS relevant,training in the battalion was non-existant except for some cursory judo/jiu-jitsu.I'm not a big fella,5'10 and built like a whippet and still in one piece,so I guess what I'm trying to say is you should train in anything that suits you because it does matter,no kicks above the knee is my only real advice,it never worked for anybody who tried it with me.


----------



## misfit

The most practical of all the martial arts out there has got to be Jui-Jitsu. Other sport martial arts (tae kwon doe, karate, blah blah) are totally useless if the fight moves closer than kicking or punching range. Once two are tangled in a "clinch" or grapple - punches and kicks are not really effective (elbows and knees are). 90% percence of fights end up on the ground - and if you dont know some very basic , but specific techniques and what to watch out for, you'll get XXXXXX up. Just watch "Royce Gracie" fight some kung fu dorks. 

I'm pretty sure they teach some form of Jui-Jitsu to most militaries for Hand to Hand combat. Closing the distance quickly, with aggressive control, and snapping an arm or choking the enemy out is much more practical then "squaring off for a karate/tae kwon do/board-breaking-bullshit/high-kicking/silly yelling" match.

Or better yet - don't lose your gun.  :threat:

PM inbound


----------



## The Gues-|-

Speaking of Royce Gracie... there's a match-up with Royce and Matt Hughes coming up.  Should be one to watch out for.


----------



## misfit

Wow, when was the last time Royce fought? That guy must be getting pretty old now. I bet he could still kick some serious  MMA ass!


----------



## The Gues-|-

Royce has been around for a while eh.  He was actually fighting in Japan the last 5 years on the downlow.  He's the same age as Chuck Liddell.  The President of UFC knew how popular he was so he's making it happen. Smart move eh!  I remember watching one of his fights where he was caught up beside the fence upside down with his opponent raining down bombs straight to his head, as soon as he made a mistake Royce had him in the arm bar with the guy submitting, he will get you anywhere.  Don't count Gracie out.... he still has a lot left.


----------



## misfit

Right on! He is a master of submission from his back - arm bars and triangle chokes are perfect when some ape is trying to punch your lights out from the top! Man, I wonder if him and Chuck would ever square off. I remeber watching Royce in the early UFC matches where there was basically no time limit and head butts to the face were allowed. Kind of like Vale Tudo! Have you ever seen one of those fights? They are hardcore man...almost too sick to watch.  *Almost*  :blotto:


----------



## army outfitters

Sgt Bilko Surplus said:
			
		

> [Mod edit - if you would like to advertise on this site, contact Mike Bobbit for details about fees]


Asked for permision and granted. Try ww.underwoodsystems.com for hand, knife, gun and ground fighting. In my opinion this is a great system created by a former member of the QOR during WW2. Great stuff and easy to pick up. Very practical


----------



## misfit

Cool, i'll check it out. Ain't payin a dime though  ^-^


----------



## The Gues-|-

misfit said:
			
		

> Right on! He is a master of submission from his back - arm bars and triangle chokes are perfect when some ape is trying to punch your lights out from the top! Man, I wonder if him and Chuck would ever square off. I remeber watching Royce in the early UFC matches where there was basically no time limit and head butts to the face were allowed. Kind of like Vale Tudo! Have you ever seen one of those fights? They are hardcore man...almost too sick to watch.  *Almost*  :blotto:



Those were the greatest.  Seemed like there were more bar-room-brawlers back then, rather than professional athletes.  If I can remember correctly they didn't have gloves either. The rules basically consisted of no biting ;D  Tank Abbot was a favourite no doubt!


----------



## Cpl.Banks

Geoff I was wondering if you knew of any interesting choices for dojo's in Ottawa. I am very much interested in green back into it. I did a few years of Judo while I was younger but dropped out. I was thinking of something perhaps like JJ or even that Russian martial art that you were talking about.
Ubique


----------



## Gouki

The Gues-|- said:
			
		

> Royce has been around for a while eh.  He was actually fighting in Japan the last 5 years on the downlow.  He's the same age as Chuck Liddell.  The President of UFC knew how popular he was so he's making it happen. Smart move eh!  I remember watching one of his fights where he was caught up beside the fence upside down with his opponent raining down bombs straight to his head, as soon as he made a mistake Royce had him in the arm bar with the guy submitting, he will get you anywhere.  Don't count Gracie out.... he still has a lot left.



Yeah and hopefully it won't be a complete farce/workup fight like Franklin vs Shamrock was.


----------



## Gouki

misfit said:
			
		

> The most practical of all the martial arts out there has got to be Jui-Jitsu. Other sport martial arts (tae kwon doe, karate, blah blah) are totally useless if the fight moves closer than kicking or punching range. Once two are tangled in a "clinch" or grapple - punches and kicks are not really effective (elbows and knees are). 90% percence of fights end up on the ground - and if you dont know some very basic , but specific techniques and what to watch out for, you'll get XXXXXX up. Just watch "Royce Gracie" fight some kung fu dorks.



You realize that that 90% goes to the ground thing is a myth and was propagated by a cop on tv and of course as soon as everyone heard that they took it as the gospel, right?

An instructor for Krav Maga I talked to in Ottawa as well as a police officer friend of the family both told me that the figures, the record figures mind you, place it more around 55-60%. Every fight does not go to the ground.

And something else the figures don't really account for is that the vast majority of these fights are by two completely untrained people (most of the time drunk) on the street.


----------



## misfit

Ok you got me there  ??? - maybe most drunk, bum fights that you watch don't go to the ground. But I was talking more about MMA fighting if you read the rest of the posts. 

And I didn't read that statistic in some book, or hear it from a cop - it just makes sense when you realize how quickly and easily a fight can end up on the floor.


----------



## Gouki

Yeah but when you get into MMA then you get into a whole other dimension in itself.

Yes, a lot of fights can and do go to the ground, but then you have to take into account the individuals ability to stand back up, or their sprawl ability. Look at Chuck Liddell - one of the hardest to take down. Randy did it easy in their 1st fight but Randy has also wrestled for 30 years, and for the 2nd/3rd he didn't have much luck because Chuck improved his ability to defend a takedown even further.

The best strikers realize they must work their takedown defense skills, and as such they can usually fight them off which is big trouble for a pure grappler. That's why I am saying it's different for MMA because things are so much more layered and complicated.


----------



## ArmyRick

I am familiar with MMA as i am a student of BJJ and some kickboxing.

However the only authorized training in the CF is the Close Quarter Combat course (Not talking about after hours stuff).  It replaced the old Unarmed Combat System.  The CQC Basic includes punching (basic boxing), blocks, kicks and knees (all kicks delivered below the waist), bayonet fighting (including pujil fighting), knife fighting intro, stances and movement, some non lethal techniques, sentry take out and some throws.  The Basic CQC is taught currently on DP 1 Infantry.

The advance level CQC training includes OC spray, baton fighting, basic wrestling takedowns, submissions, intro ground fighting, hand cuffing and more lethal and non lethal techniques. Advance CQC trg is conducted by your CQCIs at your unit.


All in all, the current CQC system is much better than the old Unarmed Combat system.


----------



## pte.tobe

Hey guys! I'll start off by saying that this is my first post and this seems like a good place to start because I have a little background on the subject. I'm not going to agree or dissagree with anyone on here as I don't know you all that well to pass judgement. Also from what I have gathered through reading this thread you all seem to have a very good knowledge of hand to hand combat yourselves. However if you'd like to research a possible alternative might I suggest S.C.A.R.S(Special. Combat. Aggressive. Reactionary. Systems.).  It's a very interesting alternative to martial arts and from the sounds of things it revolves around everything you guys are disscusing in this thread. I believe some of you will find this style very interesting as it teaches strikes, throws, grappling, pressure points, and even dives into compression techniques. Wll this while at the same time acknowlegding the fact that you're being trained for combat, that means no fancy moves simple and straight forward finish the fight. If interested just search for "Direct Action Corps" sound be easy to find from there. Hope this is helpful to someone.


----------



## ArmyRick

Once again, newbie pte tobe, take note. The AUTHORIZED TRAINING ON DUTY IS CF CQC. End of story. What soldiers pursue on their own time is their own business.


----------



## Rohann

misfit said:
			
		

> The most practical of all the martial arts out there has got to be Jui-Jitsu. Other sport martial arts (tae kwon doe, karate, blah blah) are totally useless if the fight moves closer than kicking or punching range. Once two are tangled in a "clinch" or grapple - punches and kicks are not really effective (elbows and knees are). 90% percence of fights end up on the ground - and if you dont know some very basic , but specific techniques and what to watch out for, you'll get XXXXXX up. Just watch "Royce Gracie" fight some kung fu dorks.
> 
> I'm pretty sure they teach some form of Jui-Jitsu to most militaries for Hand to Hand combat. Closing the distance quickly, with aggressive control, and snapping an arm or choking the enemy out is much more practical then "squaring off for a karate/tae kwon do/board-breaking-bullshit/high-kicking/silly yelling" match.
> 
> Or better yet - don't lose your gun.  :threat:
> 
> PM inbound



I'd have to say the most practical and useful of all martial arts would be Jeet Kune Do. Developed by Bruce Lee, it has most of the effective martial arts integrated into it (Muay Thai,American boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, etc.). Watch the training video he made on it; some pretty useful stuff. 

-Rohann


----------



## misfit

Where is the video?


----------



## Rohann

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1417808943864224921&q=jeet+kune+do&pl=true
It's long and has low quality, but it's still worth it.

-Rohann


----------



## FiRe_MaRSHaL_ShAwN

I took and completed the Unarmed Combat Instructors Course in Meaford in spring of 2000.  Some of the techniques in the manual were a little outdated but the instructors brought there own knowledge from there martial arts, boxing and wrestling backgrounds.  They also brought in a civilian Grappling Instructor.  It was a tough 3 weeks and the biggest thing I picked up from the course.   CONSERVE AMMO.  Dont have to kick and punch if you put a lead pill behind there ear.


Ireland


----------



## GAP

We took "unarmed combat" prior to going over to FMF PAC. Twice I had situations that required use of hand-to-hand force with a much smaller opponent. I initially underestimated him and nearly got my clock cleaned, I never gave it a second thought after that. Most of the comments here on naked aggression, do what has to be done, I find correct. Not once did I ever think of the moves we practised so hard on, let alone use them. Just down and dirty.


----------



## jerrythunder

Has anyone here heared of a martial art called Krav Maga. i was reading about it and it sounds very interesting and im thinking of taking it up.


----------



## paracowboy

as long as you find an instructor in true Krav Maga, you will be prepared to defend yourself in almost any situation.

It's become a bit of a fad, with frauds and "band wagon jumpers-on". Not as bad as Ninjutsu in the '80s, but be careful. Research your instructor carefully. Don't ask me for references, I've never had the opportunity to study this system. This is just stuff I've picked up via martial arts magazines and Military-related websites.


----------



## ArmyRick

Krav Maga is pretty much a hybrid martial art aimed specifically at cops and soldiers. Its useful. Like paracowboy stated, RESEARCH and sort the bullsh*tters from the real instructors.


----------



## paracowboy

and as for this "My martial art can beat up your martial art" crap...boys, shake your heads. There is no panacea for the forceful application of controlled violence. They all got good points, and they all got bad ones. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

You have to look at your particular mentality, body-type, and where/when you're most likely to end up having to fight. Learn a system that suits you. Work on mastering it. But sample every other style you can find, if for no other reason that to learn how your system works against it. That's how the Almighty Bruce started.

Look at each style's strengths: boxing is outstanding for it's punches and footwork; wrestling for it's ground work; tae kwan do for it's kicks; arnis for it's stick/knife work; etc. Train in them all, or find a system that incorporates most of them.

Learn to defend yourself at every range: kicking, punching, grappling, weapons, shooting. Learn to handle yourself standing up and on the ground. Think about what you will most likely be wearing. Train as you will fight.

And decide that if you will fight, you are going to fight to win. Best of all, learn to recognize when a fight is brewing, and depart before. If it's not possible, remember this: If you find yourself in a fair fight...

...your tactics suck.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote from Paracowboy,_
That's how the Almighty Bruce started._

Hmmm,  you've heard about my hockey exploits too...... :-[


Oh, you mean the OTHER Bruce.....


----------



## Q.Y. Ranger

I'm currently taking my SQ course, and we have hand to hand combat training on Fridays for PT. We did this through out BMQ as well. Its not any sort of martial arts, its just basic fighting skills. 

Mike


----------



## foerestedwarrior

M. Sparks said:
			
		

> I'm currently taking my SQ course, and we have hand to hand combat training on Fridays for PT. We did this through out BMQ as well. Its not any sort of martial arts, its just basic fighting skills.
> 
> Mike



Is this an official part of the course? The only thing I have seen for unarmed combat stuff, is the new BIQ incorporates unarmed combat into it.


----------



## Centurian1985

A bit of history for those who may wonder about our hand-to-hand program:

We used to be pretty prolific in this aspect until 1988 when one of our guys in the VP accidently got stabbed through the heart during an exhibition.   In 1989, premission was given to start up a new course for instructors, but we did not use the manual, which teaches only basic maneuvres, and most of those in the manual are inadequately described, with a few even being in correct. The instructor for this program was a local bouncer who taught a combination of martial arts designed for close-in self defence.  Since then there is a continual see-saw between the need for good fighting techniques and frightened officers who worry about soldiers getting hurt (or severly injured) during training (valid, but prohibited to the point of silliness, another legacy of our peace-keeping days).  Nowadays there is more acceptance for the need for close-infighting skills, but you get a lot of flak from JAGs and associated offices if you are not officially sponsored by the CF or in a trade that considers the skill essential. This is probably very different from the stuff people are being taught nowadays, in the old school way I was taught a dozen different techniques from as many people over 20 years. 

Things you really need to know:  

1) Know when to walk away:  One guy who wanted to join my area of expertise said "I can take care of myself, I know martial arts and fight in UFC."  Thats nice, but getting into a fight sometimes means you failed your primary task, which was not to draw attention.  This applies to many situations on tours of the CF.  Its not about how tough you are or whether you can kick the other guys ***, its whether you did your job without sustaining injuries (on them or us).  

2) Be willing  to kick butt - thoroughly, completely and with complete dedication:  On the flip side, you need to know when its time to kick some butt, very important in the infantry where your job IS to make sure you can start a fight and win.  Fighting is for when they wont give up peacefully, when you are protecting yourself and others, or when you are ordered to go in there and kick ***.  Theres no ref to stop the fight or a manager to throw in the towel.  Once you start you cant back out, and you cant give up.  Read up on some of parkie's war tales to read about what a man has to do to stay alive (I would say refer to our guys overseas who have had these experiences, but dont know of any other threads they speak in...). Oh and it has to be the right butt - not some civi in a bar who insults your machismo (see #1), save it for the bad guys.        

3) Expect to fight dirty!: There's lots of different styles for injuring or killing a man, but the most important things to learn are the vulnerable areas that most techniques dont teach or allow in sparring; know the vital areas and how to affect them; kidney punches, joint disablers, eyes slashes, ear smacks, nose smashes, throat damage, groin attacks, these are the most important that stun or momentarily incapacitate a person in close-in fighting. Get the enemy blind or gasping and the advantage is yours.  

4) Improvise from local materials: The great thing about an urban built up area is the crap lying around ready for use in a fight. Learning to use improvised weapons is important, as well as defending agaisn them.  Personally I learned bokido style techniques but there are a lot of others that are weapons-based which can be applied to more effective use of your rifle other than a stab or buttstroke.

5) Learn to capture without killing: You will also need to be able disarm or immobilize your opponent so that they can be questioned; higher ups tend to get upset when all you have are untraceable dead bodies, as do civil police bodies, or it might be a suspect you just want to control without harming.  You shoud know some aikido or the close-in joint manipulation moves used by dozens of martial arts.  

6) Review your fighting gear capabilities: If you are wearing full tactical gear, where are your vulnerable areas? Most non-infantry soldiers (and even a infantry soldiers - note , this is pre-2001) I worked with knew only how to fight when wearing pants and t-shirts, and didnt change their ideas of fighting once they were fully dressed for combat.  There are certain combat moves that you cannot perform while wearing webbing or a full tact vest, or at least it throws off your balance.  There are also certain body areas protected when you wear different types of gear, so you can spend less time trying to protect them and focus on protecting other areas.  Further, learn what pieces of equipment can be used as effective armour or bludgeons.  If you can fight with improvised weapons, you are never unarmed!  (only outranged...) 

7) Reference the one guys comment on depending on your buddies to help you - dont!  In close quarters fights, the kick-in of adrenaline causes tunnel vision.  All you know about is kicking the guys *** in front of you.  When the guy is down and out or dead, then you have time to look around and help others.  Only those who have a high level of experience in hand-to-hand combat or training in martial arts are able to avoid loss of situational wareness in a fight.  Even if you have that skill, its uncertain if the others on your team also have it (unless you are with the elite units).  Counting on others to pile-on is a standard police tactic for dealing with single difficult arrests and riot situations but doesnt work in H2H combat where the odds are usually 1-1.   

(Quick edit - in regards to a matter raised by armyrick - many of these concepts are in direct contravention to the concepts of using minimum force and thus not approved by the CF JAG for use in disarming or incapacitating potential enemies.)


----------



## Langevin

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> A bit of history for those who may wonder about our hand-to-hand program:
> 
> We used to be pretty prolific in this aspect until 1988 when one of our guys in the VP accidently got stabbed through the heart during an exhibition.   In 1989, premission was given to start up a new course for instructors, but we did not use the manual, which teaches only basic maneuvres, and most of those in the manual are inadequately described, with a few even being in correct. The instructor for this program was a local bouncer who taught a combination of martial arts designed for close-in self defence.  Since then there is a continual see-saw between the need for good fighting techniques and frightened officers who worry about soldiers getting hurt (or severly injured) during training (valid, but prohibited to the point of silliness, another legacy of our peace-keeping days).  Nowadays there is more acceptance for the need for close-infighting skills, but you get a lot of flak from JAGs and associated offices if you are not officially sponsored by the CF or in a trade that considers the skill essential. This is probably very different from the stuff people are being taught nowadays, in the old school way I was taught a dozen different techniques from as many people over 20 years.
> 
> Things you really need to know:
> 
> 1) Know when to walk away:  One guy who wanted to join my area of expertise said "I can take care of myself, I know martial arts and fight in UFC."  Thats nice, but getting into a fight sometimes means you failed your primary task, which was not to draw attention.  This applies to many situations on tours of the CF.  Its not about how tough you are or whether you can kick the other guys ***, its whether you did your job without sustaining injuries (on them or us).
> 
> 2) Be willing  to kick butt - thoroughly, completely and with complete dedication:  On the flip side, you need to know when its time to kick some butt, very important in the infantry where your job IS to make sure you can start a fight and win.  Fighting is for when they wont give up peacefully, when you are protecting yourself and others, or when you are ordered to go in there and kick ***.  Theres no ref to stop the fight or a manager to throw in the towel.  Once you start you cant back out, and you cant give up.  Read up on some of parkie's war tales to read about what a man has to do to stay alive (I would say refer to our guys overseas who have had these experiences, but dont know of any other threads they speak in...).
> 
> 3) Expect to fight dirty!: There's lots of different styles for injuring or killing a man, but the most important things to learn are the vulnerable areas that most techniques dont teach or allow in sparring; know the vital areas and how to affect them; kidney punches, joint disablers, eyes slashes, ear smacks, nose smashes, throat damage, groin attacks, these are the most important that stun or momentarily incapacitate a person in close-in fighting. Get the enemy blind or gasping and the advantage is yours.
> 
> 4) Improvise from local materials: The great thing about an urban built up area is the crap lying around ready for use in a fight. Learning to use improvised weapons is important, as well as defending agaisn them.  Personally I learned bokido style techniques but there are a lot of others that are weapons-based which can be applied to more effective use of your rifle other than a stab or buttstroke.
> 
> 5) Learn to capture without killing: You will also need to be able disarm or immobilize your opponent so that they can be questioned; higher ups tend to get upset when all you have are untraceable dead bodies, as do civil police bodies, or it might be a suspect you just want to control without harming.  You shoud know some aikido or the close-in joint manipulation moves used by dozens of martial arts.
> 
> 6) Review your fighting gear capabilities: If you are wearing full tactical gear, where are your vulnerable areas? Most non-infantry soldiers (and even a infantry soldiers - note , this is pre-2001) I worked with knew only how to fight when wearing pants and t-shirts, and didnt change their ideas of fighting once they were fully dressed for combat.  There are certain combat moves that you cannot perform while wearing webbing or a full tact vest, or at least it throws off your balance.  There are also certain body areas protected when you wear different types of gear, so you can spend less time trying to protect them and focus on protecting other areas.  Further, learn what pieces of equipment can be used as effective armour or bludgeons.  If you can fight with improvised weapons, you are never unarmed!  (only outranged...)
> 
> 7) Reference the one guys comment on depending on your buddies to help you - dont!  In close quarters fights, the kick-in of adrenaline causes tunnel vision.  All you know about is kicking the guys *** in front of you.  When the guy is down and out or dead, then you have time to look around and help others.  Only those who have a high level of experience in hand-to-hand combat or training in martial arts are able to avoid loss of situational wareness in a fight.  Even if you have that skill, its uncertain if the others on your team also have it (unless you are with the elite units).  Counting on others to pile-on is a standard police tactic for dealing with single difficult arrests and riot situations but doesnt work in H2H combat where the odds are usually 1-1.





Good input.. i learned alot lol


----------



## Fusaki

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> 7) Reference the one guys comment on depending on your buddies to help you - dont!  In close quarters fights, the kick-in of adrenaline causes tunnel vision.  All you know about is kicking the guys *** in front of you.  When the guy is down and out or dead, then you have time to look around and help others.  Only those who have a high level of experience in hand-to-hand combat or training in martial arts are able to avoid loss of situational wareness in a fight.  Even if you have that skill, its uncertain if the others on your team also have it (unless you are with the elite units).  Counting on others to pile-on is a standard police tactic for dealing with single difficult arrests and riot situations but doesnt work in H2H combat where the odds are usually 1-1.



Actually, I said the most _practical_ way get the help of a buddy when dealing with the situation. While it may not always be a viable option, we're expected and trained to depend on each other despite the adrenaline rush you'd get under contact at any range. Breaking out of hand to hand combat is should be no more complicated then finishing the enemy while in hand to hand combat, but it sure is safer to have a checked out fireteam partner put two in the chest of some angry axe wielding Taliban.

You're assuming that hand to hand combat would occur in a situation where the friendly position is being overrun, or we've just hopped into a soviet trench system. I'd say that a more likely scenario is that you're either trying to capture a specific individual (in which case we have the initiative, and can afford to send two troops to take one guy down), or some Taliban got caught by suprise and is probably isolated from his own gang. Or he's just some lone loony who probably doesn't expect to survive, like the axeman. An entire section getting in hand to hand combat at the same time is a VERY unlikely scenario.

Of course, I'm speculating here. But this is my impression of the situation in our current theatre of operations.


----------



## paracowboy

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Actually, I said the most _practical_ way get the help of a buddy when dealing with the situation. While it may not always be a viable option, we're expected and trained to depend on each other despite the adrenaline rush you'd get under contact at any range. Breaking out of hand to hand combat is should be no more complicated then finishing the enemy while in hand to hand combat, but it sure is safer to have a checked out fireteam partner put two in the chest of some angry axe wielding Taliban.
> 
> You're assuming that hand to hand combat would occur in a situation where the friendly position is being overrun, or we've just hopped into a soviet trench system. I'd say that a more likely scenario is that you're either trying to capture a specific individual (in which case we have the initiative, and can afford to send two troops to take one guy down), or some Taliban got caught by suprise and is probably isolated from his own gang. Or he's just some lone loony who probably doesn't expect to survive, like the axeman. An entire section getting in hand to hand combat at the same time is a VERY unlikely scenario.
> 
> Of course, I'm speculating here. But this is my impression of the situation in our current theatre of operations.


in 3RCR, we trained our troops to go 2 on 1 for riot control, prisoner handling, and when attacked.

Unofficially, we trained the troops to pile on in any form of hand-to-gland, by the simple expedient of impromptu dog-piles at any opportunity. Most often occurring when the resident trained gorilla (a blond, blue-eyed gorilla) would proceed to maul someone for giggles. "You just gonna stand there, ****ee? Your buddy's getting his ass kicked! Git in there!"

When we were running rehearsals for a raid, my section was responsible to take someone down in order to inititate. We rehearsed it quite simply: I would put my hand out to shake, as soon as I had his right hand grasped, my partner would blind him with the spotlight he was carrying (okay, blind him and hit him in the face), and the two of us would subdue him. His partner would be taken down by three others in the section by just plain ol' jumpin' him, and puttin' the boots to him. The last two would be providing cover with their firearms.

The age-old tradition of "Let's git 'im" carried over into all of our training. As well as the concept of "Never go anywhere without your fireteam partner." They blend nicely.

This doesn't contradict any of the above posters, but it does show a slightly different perspective, I think.


----------



## ArmyRick

OK, here we go again.

To the guy who said on SQ that they did unarmed combat for PT on fridays, pay attention. I am a CQC Instructor and I will state the policy. There is not to be any unauthorized close quarter combat training on course. END OF STORY. FULL STOP. 

Currently we teach CQC Basic as part of PO 105 on the DP 1 Infantry Regular (Reservist can attend the DP 1 REG, apply through your chain of command). CQC Basic can also be taught to any unit that has the time and CQCI availible. On SQ there is neither the time nor is there the authorization for CQC training.

Any unauthorized CQC training during course time is forbidden. Now I happen to be a BJJ figher and kickboxer myself but I DO NOT incoporate any unauthorized techniques on the CQC basic. If you are teaching your "own stuff" be warned you will be discovered and you will be liable for your actions.

Also I will say again as I have said earlier that the old unarmed combat instructors course is not valid any more. Those personnel must now attend a CQCI conversion or attend the entire course.


----------



## wildman0101

:warstory:
well when i got to my parent regiment 8-ch after basic 
we had a choice running,wheights, or un armed,,,
all the guys had some form of martial art or unarmed training
we swapped techniques,,forms,styles 
invented styes..regardless 
have my own style now retired
couple beer and mess with the nanjuckas 
allways better the form
cheers lmao,,copy


----------



## edmjay

Was reading this post, then seen the video. Thought I would bring the two together. The vid is somewhat related...

http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=716

J


----------



## Talon16

If you want to learn an effective martial art for hand-to-hand, I suggest the martial art of Aikido. It's less about attacks and more about subduing your opponent but once you get good at it, you can defeat just about any other martial art....plus it's the martial art of the samurai...which is just sweet! lol
  

    -Cheers


----------



## Centurian1985

paracowboy said:
			
		

> in 3RCR, we trained our troops to go 2 on 1 for riot control, prisoner handling, and when attacked.
> Unofficially, we trained the troops to pile on in any form of hand-to-gland, by the simple expedient of impromptu dog-piles at any opportunity. Most often occurring when the resident trained gorilla (a blond, blue-eyed gorilla) would proceed to maul someone for giggles. "You just gonna stand there, ****ee? Your buddy's getting his *** kicked! Git in there!"
> When we were running rehearsals for a raid, my section was responsible to take someone down in order to inititate. We rehearsed it quite simply: I would put my hand out to shake, as soon as I had his right hand grasped, my partner would blind him with the spotlight he was carrying (okay, blind him and hit him in the face), and the two of us would subdue him. His partner would be taken down by three others in the section by just plain ol' jumpin' him, and puttin' the boots to him. The last two would be providing cover with their firearms.
> The age-old tradition of "Let's git 'im" carried over into all of our training. As well as the concept of "Never go anywhere without your fireteam partner." They blend nicely.
> This doesn't contradict any of the above posters, but it does show a slightly different perspective, I think.





			
				Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Actually, I said the most _practical_ way get the help of a buddy when dealing with the situation. While it may not always be a viable option, we're expected and trained to depend on each other despite the adrenaline rush you'd get under contact at any range. Breaking out of hand to hand combat is should be no more complicated then finishing the enemy while in hand to hand combat, but it sure is safer to have a checked out fireteam partner put two in the chest of some angry axe wielding Taliban.
> You're assuming that hand to hand combat would occur in a situation where the friendly position is being overrun, or we've just hopped into a soviet trench system. I'd say that a more likely scenario is that you're either trying to capture a specific individual (in which case we have the initiative, and can afford to send two troops to take one guy down), or some Taliban got caught by suprise and is probably isolated from his own gang. Or he's just some lone loony who probably doesn't expect to survive, like the axeman. An entire section getting in hand to hand combat at the same time is a VERY unlikely scenario.
> Of course, I'm speculating here. But this is my impression of the situation in our current theatre of operations.



Both are excellent points - I would be willing to modify my points to include acting with a partner if only battlefield actions were the focus.  Unfortunately, self-defence is often also needed off the battle field and away from the partner you trained with.


----------



## paracowboy

Talon16 said:
			
		

> If you want to learn an effective martial art for hand-to-hand, I suggest the martial art of Aikido. It's less about attacks and more about subduing your opponent but once you get good at it, you can defeat just about any other martial art....plus it's the martial art of the samurai...which is just sweet!


didn't read much didja?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Talon16 said:
			
		

> If you want to learn an effective martial art for hand-to-hand, I suggest the martial art of Aikido. It's less about attacks and more about subduing your opponent but once you get good at it, you can defeat just about any other martial art....plus it's the martial art of the samurai...which is just sweet! lol
> 
> 
> -Cheers



Don't forget  Steven Segal, the deadliest man alive, as long as the bad guys all line up and take their turn, and he has a parking lot to operate in..... ;D


----------



## gate_guard

Talon16,
Actually traditional Japanese jujutsu was the unarmed combat art employed by samurai (kenjutsu was the art of swordsmanship taught to samurai). Aikido and Judo are both founded by individuals who took portions of traditional jujutsu and evolved it into their own respective arts.

First off, enough with the "My system is the best", it's a step away from "My dad can beat up your dad". Personally, any training in any decent combative art is better than nothing. Pick something that you're comfortable with and comes naturally to you.

Another good point brought up by Centurian1985, know when to fight. Your biggest defence is being able to talk yourself out of a fight, it isn't worth it. But, when the time to fight and defend yourself comes, give it 100% until the fight is over. I was told a story by an instructor about a fellow cop who had to use his asp once. The cop struck the assailant numerous times without any real success but was eventually able to subdue and handcuff him. The instructor asked him later "Did you hit him with everything you had?" and of course the guy said no. When the time comes to defend yourself and take control, ever hold back anything.

In regards to the one man versus two man issue, just last week I had to take a guy to the ground and employ various
...ahem...use of force tactics getting him into a proned out handcuffing position. A fellow officer quickly jumped in and also...employed techniques in order to assist me. I had no doubt that I would have eventually been able to do it on my own, but many hands make light work. The moral, always be ready and able to take care of yourself but use whatever resources you have including your fire team partner, the quicker you end the fight the better.


----------



## andreit1

I've been doing karate for 5 years now and in anything, and I mean anything I do, there is a resemblance be it in the stance, range, speed, concentration, etc.
I am proud to say that it has become somewhat second nature and everytime I practice I feel like a million bucks. IMO martial arts are basic to any fighting, long-range, short-range
and should be taught with seriousness in the army.


----------



## paracowboy

andreit1 said:
			
		

> IMO martial arts are basic to any fighting, long-range, short-range and should be taught with seriousness in the army.


thanks. We'll work on that. Anything else you want us to do? I mean it'd be best for you to tell us all now while you still know everything, before you actually get in the army and forget it all.


----------



## andreit1

you're right, I shouldn't talk before joining.


----------



## paracowboy

on a serious note, you should give some thought to adding to your own martial arts repertoire. By that I mean, you should look into adding grappling skills, ie judo, jujutsu, or (especially) wrestling. Also, I encourage everyone to do some boxing. 

Karate is fine for a base (my first style was Shito-Ryu), but very few McDojos actually teach practical fighting skills. Even if you chose not to actually continue studying any other systems, it would prove benficial to you to learn how to employ the skills you have now against other stylists.

I was fortunate in taking TaeKwan Do from a man who was a combat veteran, and highly skilled in multiple styles. He encouraged us to sample everything we could for those very reasons.


----------



## andreit1

I was interested in taking some MMA but then again, it's not the art that makes the difference, it's how serious you are about your art.
Anyways, I hope there is some sort of course on base.


----------



## subfighter

If you're looking for some fun, forms and fitness, take some martial arts classes.  If you actually want to learn how to fight, give mixed martial arts a try.  If there are no 'total package' typed schools near you,  try to find one of the basic building blocks: Muay Thai, Submission Grappling, Judo/Sambo.  Some bases have no clubs nearby, but have some members with MMA experience that train on their own and learn from each other (Trenton/Pet).  

For anyone in Ottawa, I would recommend checking out any of these schools.  A lot of dudes from work train at each club and I've also personally had my clock cleaned by awesome people repeatedly at each place.  And paid for it, I might add.

www.ronin-mma.com
http://www.thaiboxing-ca.com/
www.oama.ca
www.rus-sambo.com


----------



## paracowboy

never mind. Nothing to see here. I'm a dumbass.


----------



## Sig_Des

subfighter said:
			
		

> For anyone in Ottawa, I would recommend checking out any of these schools.  A lot of dudes from work train at each club and I've also personally had my clock cleaned by awesome people repeatedly at each place.  And paid for it, I might add.
> 
> www.ronin-mma.com
> http://www.thaiboxing-ca.com/
> www.oama.ca
> www.rus-sambo.com



Hmm. Ronin MMA is about a 5 minute jog from my place. Might look into it. I was looking into picking up Krav Maga over at teh world Karatefit center, but that's on the other end of the city.

Thanks for the info, sub


----------



## gate_guard

Try a bit of everything and find out what you like, you won't train seriously enough to be good unless you enjoy what you're doing. IMO most martial arts/mma type schools are able to give you decent skills as long as you work at it.

Personally, I am most comfortable using my awesome bo staff skills when it comes down to it...

Oh yeah, I'm sorry but am I the only one who noticed Kal admitting to playing with his mom?


----------



## paracowboy

gate_guard said:
			
		

> Personally, I am most comfortable using my awesome bo staff skills when it comes down to it...


Personally, I am most comfortable with the "Let's you and him fight" system of unarmed combat. I have mastered the 6th Animal form of Shaolin: the Turtle. 

Now, after reading subfighter's thread again, I owe him an apology. His post was rather informative, and more in the nature of promoting discussion, than I thought when reading it too fast. My bad.

subfighter, I apologize. 

We can certainly debate the strengths and weaknesses of various sytems, but for everyone, let's just try to keep the "My sensei can beat up your sifu" stuff out of it.

Getting back to MMA vs McDojos: I like MMA for the same reasons I encourage people to train in boxing and wrestling - you start learning to fight immediately. You don't waste time trying to learn how to be Japanese/Korean/etc. You start getting hit, hitting others right from the get-go.


----------



## Kat Stevens

My preferred style is Ree-Bock... Kick 'im in the goolies as hard as you can, then leg it out of there..... ;D


----------



## Samsquanch

Anyone know what kind of knives are being used now by our boys? Fixed blade or collapsable? Is the small ka-bar good?... 4.5 inch fixed blade I believe. I want to get a good combat knife tried tested and true. Those small bear claws look good as well.
Cheers


----------



## George Wallace

Samsquanch said:
			
		

> Anyone know what kind of knives are being used now by our boys? Fixed blade or collapsable? Is the small ka-bar good?... 4.5 inch fixed blade I believe. I want to get a good combat knife tried tested and true. Those small bear claws look good as well.
> Cheers


 :

Why bring a Knife to a Gun Fight?

You have been here before, haven't you?  We DO NOT have knives.  We are issued a multi-tool Gerber.  We have a 'cheap' bayonet for our C-7's (C-8's).  We have snow knives for arctic warfare, so that we can cut snow blocks.  We have machetes and axes for cutting follage.   In special cases we have 'Jump knives'.  WE DO NOT HAVE KNIVES FOR KNIFE FIGHTING.


----------



## paracowboy

some guys have $300 dollar "fighting knives" that they have no idea how to employ. 
Some have $20 dollar pocket knives because they don't want to lose or break a  $300 dollar "fighting knife" that they have no idea how to employ.
Some don't even have the common sense to carry the issued Gerber multi-tool or bayonet. Then they try to borrow mine.

Most buy a fairly decent folding knife from Spyderco, Cold Steel, etc. For utility purposes. Some will also carry a decent fixed blade as well, but not many. Why bother?


----------



## GAP

There is the occasional situation where a knife is used, but if you looked at all the conflicts lately in total, they would be rare indeed. My K-bar was used to open C-ration tins, slash sandbags we were replacing and other useful misc stuff. 

We had the "In Your Own Mind Commandos " who honed their blades razor sharp, only to put it away before the gunny laughed  them out of the hooch..


----------



## subfighter

Sig_Des.   Anytime.  

Paracowboy.  No worries, dude.  We are of the same opinion as to why I would recommend people try MMA as well as why people should not compare individual abilities based on a style of training.

One thing service personnel may wish to keep in mind is that fighting could be considered a vital skillset.  Consider an urban/CQB context where a 'non-lethal' threat is posed.  ROEs may not always allow for a deadly response to a few haymakers (likely never).  It helps that we fight in numbers greatly, though.  You may find a greater level of comfort in this context had you already taken your fair share of shots or grappled a few times (at least); this is not/not always the case though.  Some guys I work with do just fine with raw aggression and strength.  On another note, fights are pretty fun to watch when you have gear flying all over the place.


----------



## sparker

The most important things you can take away from martial arts training are confidence
and conditioning. I am not going to touch CQC, because I am not qualified to comment
on what techniques a soldier should or should not use. I was a sailor and the few times
I was required to use my martial arts(JUDO,Wrestling,Boxing) was when I was with the
shore patrol. Each instance it was with an unruly usually violent and drunk sailor.
No eye strikes, throat chops or knee to the cojones, just a simple throw into an
armlock, choke or holddown until some one could come and help cuff the individual.
Remember in any situation use minimum escalating force or you can face the legal
consequences(unless your in a warzone then you follow the rules of engagement).
  I have trained in the martial arts for over thirty years and as I mentioned in the
previous paragraph- CONFIDENCE in what you know and can do, even if this is one
or two techniques- CONDITIONING, if you are overweight,weak and out of breath
your chances of winning a fight are slim. If you are confident and conditioned you
should be able to give a good account of yourself and this is with only a few techniques
under your belt. It takes years to become good at any given martial art but you can
learn a few good techniques in a short time and use them effectively. In my point of
view most martial arts are good, you just have to take the time to train and condition
and do it all the time or you will lose your edge.


----------



## sigtech

radiohead said:
			
		

> I had a few questions about base life. Does the CF have any martial arts programs open to all member on the base? Or is this something that is only open to combat arms memebres, and is there a cost go attending.  Do they offer any training like they have in the Israeli army.



Depending on the base depends on the martial arts programs that are avalible,these programs are open to all members of the gym if the dojo is located there. 

As for Krav Maga (Israeli army martial arts) again that depends on the area I know there is Krav in Ottawa......

So it all depends on the base and the city you get posted to, alot of times you will find better dojo's off the base. Hunt around once you get posted find what you like and stick to that


----------



## Berg

I think that anyone interested in Martial arts should certainly try as many styels as they can possibly afford.  No one style is better than another, I've watched Brazilian Capoeira Fighters get their *** kicked by Shaolin fighters and the opposite happen the next day.  Its about individual skill and implementation of individual style or mixture of styles.  Having said that from what I have read of this thread I've not heard very many people mention the chinese martial arts.  Although it seems that in terms of popularity, especially in more rural areas (where I am) Japanese and Korean arts prevail (predominantly styles of Karate and Tae Kwon Do systems).  I suggest that if you're interested in martial arts for both use in military and civie life try out as many of the Chinese styles as you can.  My Sifu has traveled china and it is amazing to see the versatility of something like the internal styles such as Ba Gua and Win Chun, or the external styles like Shaolin Animal and Mai Jung systems among others.  But certainly if you can try these, useful not only for fighting but in living life with a different attitude.   There that's my 2 cents


Berg


----------



## sigtech

Berg said:
			
		

> I think that anyone interested in Martial arts should certainly try as many styles as they can possibly afford.  No one style is better than another, I've watched Brazilian Capoeira Fighters get their *** kicked by Shaolin fighters and the opposite happen the next day.  Its about individual skill and implementation of individual style or mixture of styles.  Having said that from what I have read of this thread I've not heard very many people mention the chinese martial arts.  Although it seems that in terms of popularity, especially in more rural areas (where I am) Japanese and Korean arts prevail (predominantly styles of Karate and Tae Kwon Do systems).  I suggest that if you're interested in martial arts for both use in military and civie life try out as many of the Chinese styles as you can.  My Sifu has traveled china and it is amazing to see the versatility of something like the internal styles such as Ba Gua and Win Chun, or the external styles like Shaolin Animal and Mai Jung systems among others.  But certainly if you can try these, useful not only for fighting but in living life with a different attitude.   There that's my 2 cents
> 
> 
> Berg



Agree here is the key no matter what style you study "FLOW" , Flow the ability to flow from one movment to another with little or no brake in movment, most people that attack you mite be able to stop your first combo but add a few more after that and is where you will be able to take them down and save you own butt. Such as a person grabs you by the neck you pull back throw a front kick followed by a cross hook cross combo, if it is blocked flow into a clinch with a few knees if that is blocked etc etc flow with good cardeo will save your butt everytime


----------



## rosco

I would never discount suprise. Upon leaving a bar in Seoul a 'buddy' got into it with a local. After the Korean guy demonstrated a stunning sequence of roundhouse kicks and heal spins said buddy step ed up, pulled the guys sweater over his head and kneed his face in.  Perhaps the 'Jersey' would be a fitting Canadian edition to hand to hand tactics  ;D


----------



## sigtech

rossco said:
			
		

> I would never discount suprise. Upon leaving a bar in Seoul a 'buddy' got into it with a local. After the Korean guy demonstrated a stunning sequence of roundhouse kicks and heal spins said buddy step ed up, pulled the guys sweater over his head and kneed his face in.  Perhaps the 'Jersey' would be a fitting Canadian edition to hand to hand tactics  ;D



Suprise is always a factor, the knockout punch is the one you don't see coming


----------



## privatehoorah

I have a couple friends that are infantry and was just wondering if they are the only guys that get the cqc (close quarters combat) instruction.   I was just wondering if any of the other combat arms get the cqc instruction such as combat engineer.  I tried the search function for cqc but all that came up was some post about LAV III's and some other non related topics. 

Ooh, and if cqc is not offered as instruction for other combat arms, is it offered as a course that you can ask to take??




[Edit: Once again correcting some Spelling Mistakes/Capitalization Problems]


----------



## MikeL

Infantry are not the only ones that get it; they might be the only guys that get it as part of their BIQ/DP1 course though.  Usually units run their own CQC program though for their guys(combat arms an support MOCs). Dunno if thats just for Combat Arms unit or if support units do it aswell.  


The only CQC course I'm aware of is an Instructer Course.


----------



## Conquistador

When I did my SQ, everybody got a familiarization with simunition and got to go through the kill house, including the few Svc Bn types that were on my course. Of course, this was all done with the PRes, so I don't know about the reg force.


----------



## Pte_Martin

The first poster was talking about CQC (Close Quater Combat) The kill house and sim that you are talking about is more towards Urban Ops. And as a Ex Res and now Reg force guy the battle school for both of them is very different, Reg force is the only one the does CQC and they get more in depth into Urban Ops than the Res.


----------



## ArmyRick

As a CQCI, I will go ahead and run with this.

CQC (basic) is taught on DP 1 Infantry (REG F). It is a qualification by itself. CQCI is the instructors course. To the clown talking about doing simmunition, you are confused and refering to close quarters battle. CQC Is duking it out.

Any trade can attend CQCI if they are qualified basic and are MCPL or higher (or CPL PLQ Qualified). Usually we run a CQC Basic to get everybody up to speed before we do the CQCI.

If you have at least 2 CQCI, then you can run CQC basic at your units (its 7 x days) and you require the appropriote gear (pugil, sparring, mats HIGHLY reccomended.

Cheers.


----------



## medaid

can officers take the CQCI course? I've got extensive martial arts background as well as use of force training  just wandering ArmyRick


----------



## soggy sapper

My Combat Engineer unit ran a basic CQC course in the last year, and we have a few (very few) qualified CQCI pers at the unit. It was not a normal course , but it was still offered, I believe only about 20-30 pers were run through the course at that time. But at least it was still held.......as for officer's attending, I believe a (new) Lt (not a 2 LT) was the chief CQCI.


----------



## NovaScotiaNewfie

I did a search and found this, http://www.army.dnd.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/B-GL-382/004/FP-001/B-GL-382-004-FP-001_E.pdf

it might not be  used anymore...but it was interesting. It looks to me as if it's at least based on karate, the way it shows punches kicks and stances appear to me to resemble karate.  I saw in one article in a blackbelt magazine a number of years ago an article on US Army hand to hand. It was a form of karate...goju-ryu maybe.  I think that in the US Army it has changed they are into BJJ now but I think other styles karate have been taught.

Not sure how many styles are taught through the CF but unless you can train in it often or train with someone who does it lots a marital arts club/dojo might be the best bet. I could be a civilian club...but at least that option you can train (time permitting of course) numerous times a week...2 or more for most arts.  In all honest even a day seminar or weekend seminar might not due you that good unless you already are an experience martial artist (so you can understand the movement and more likely to get something out of a few hours of training) or you can train with a hand to hand instructor often. 

I would suggest if you live in an area that has numerous styles try each that you can, most instructors will let you try one class or a few for free. Ask questions like how long they have taught, talk to other students and choose an art that seems interesting and worthwile to you. All arts have something to teach if you like sport arts...competition arts like TKD, Karate normally have tournaments..as does Kung Fu I believe.  Some folks will say that TKD and karate are to linear  but again it's a personal choice. As was mentioned in this thread TKD and Karate are pretty much every where...just choose something you enjoy and you consider worth while. 

While on this thread has anyone heard of Gus Michalik  of the Black Arts society (http://www.black-arts-society.com/michalik.htm) I met him on a martial arts chat forum 
some years ago..he said he was a hand to hand instructor for one of the battalions of the RCR. 

Any one here had any experience with the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) seems pretty interesting.


----------



## NovaScotiaNewfie

Hatchet Man  mentioned an art I'd love to get involved with Bujinkan Ninjutsu do a simple serach for it on line. I'ts made up of 9 ryu or schools some of which are Ninjutsu some are samurai arts etc. As far as I know the only dojo of it in Atlantic Canada is or was in Diepee, NB last time I searched. THere use to be one in Halifax but I have since been told it closed down or they no longer knew of the instructor teaching it...I've never seen it in action but believe it is effective....


----------



## ArmyRick

NovaScotiaNewf, the pam you provided a link for is the OLD CF unarmed combat system and IS NO longer used. The current CQC pam is floating around and the electronic copies are controlled. 

ArmyRick (CQC Instructor)


----------



## misfit

The most importnant thing is winning the fight. That is what you should focus on - not any dancing.


----------



## Us3D

the hand to hand combat is based , on the UFC , its a mix of every martial art. its a 7day training and u must be in a REALY GOOOD SHAPE. u do 2 combat pt every day , and for the rest u learn some tech. at the end of the training u will do a obstacle course witch is very hard. Chance of hurting yourself during the 7 days ... 75%   good luck


----------



## The_Falcon

NovaScotiaNewfie said:
			
		

> Hatchet Man  mentioned an art I'd love to get involved with Bujinkan Ninjutsu do a simple serach for it on line. I'ts made up of 9 ryu or schools some of which are Ninjutsu some are samurai arts etc. As far as I know the only dojo of it in Atlantic Canada is or was in Diepee, NB last time I searched. THere use to be one in Halifax but I have since been told it closed down or they no longer knew of the instructor teaching it...I've never seen it in action but believe it is effective....



Its a neat art to learn, purely to learn a classical martial art, but I wouldn't count on it as an effective style in a street fight unless you were to train ridiculusly hardcore in it for say 15-20 years, and even then it would be iffy.  That said there are a couple of practitioners who have refined it for a modern age (ie less ridiculus fixed stances, and full contact/full force strikes).  As well some of the more modern Jujitsu ryus (and by extension that would include BJJ and Judo) can trace their lineage back to the some of the 9 ryus that make up the bujinkan system.  You really can't go wrong with a place that has a solid MMA program, also if you can take a PPCT course which will teach you the basics (ie disable someone without causing serious harm to them and most importantly your self).  As well, EVERYONE you try and remember to practice the most acient and sacred art of Donovan Bailey jitsu, for when the fit really hits the shan.


----------



## retiredgrunt45

I've witnessed a few street fights, were the claimed matrial art person meets the 240lb King Kong and let me tell you, once King Kong gets a hold of you, its contest over for M. Karate. There is really no response for big meaty right fist hitting face over and over again .

Sorry but some people have been watching to many Bruce Lee movies.


----------



## alfie

The most impotant thing in a fight is the will to win, techniques make that easier. I have seen many a brawl where the winner used what ever means nessecary including the use of tables, bottles and bricks. The consequences of such a fight can land one in crowbar for a long time and out of the military so be forewarned practice is ok but save the real thing for when you need it.


----------



## COBRA-6

NovaScotiaNewfie said:
			
		

> While on this thread has anyone heard of Gus Michalik  of the Black Arts society (http://www.black-arts-society.com/michalik.htm) I met him on a martial arts chat forum
> some years ago..he said he was a hand to hand instructor for one of the battalions of the RCR.



I did a CQC instructor course with Gus and the Black Arts guys about a year ago. It is a very effective system for soldiers and works when you are wearing a lot of gear, unlike some of the sport-oriented disciplines. Did some pressure point work (not so much the control tactics, more like where and how to strike for maximum effect), simple hand to hand techniques, empty hand vs weapons, disarms, etc...  
Quick, violent and dirty! The only unfair fight is the one you loose...


----------



## medaid

I had recently been certified as a Control & Defence and Improvised Weapons Instructor with Jim Wagner's Reality Based Personal Protection System. 

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/

The courses which were two days, one 10 day each, were intense fast and simple. It's effective, and I will attest that after having roughly 10years of traditional martial arts background, this system is truly a revolution. Jim's techniques are collected from all over the world, and he's instructed many SWAT, Ranger, USMC Sniper and GSG9 units, and many others, and is repeatedly used by all of their respective governments. 

Any technique is only as good as the operator who employs it. You can be an encyclopedia of moves, locks and kicks, but if you don't know how to employ them properly, you're down for the count. Physical fitness, agility, and other factors all come into play. Being good at one simple technique and being able to deploy it fast, accurate and smoothly, will save you more then fancy handwork (which I've learned) of traditional martial arts. 

In the end, the preference is on the learner. However, if you want a proven system that works, look into the one I'm in now. Sports martial artists will often lose in a fight because they have no will to do actual harm and will stop as soon as they make contact. 

The difference between some of us and the casual sport martial artists are that we have to survive when we deploy this. We're willing to do what's necessary. The question now is, are YOU?


----------



## edgar

I clicked on ALL and my computer choked. Must be time to clean the BS filter. Reading through page by page, I think some bandwidth could be saved by noting that there already exists a discussion site solely devoted to the effectiveness of the various martial arts, known as Bullshido.com. 

As far as the Canadian Forces is concerned, I think the "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" argument can be dismissed. To say why bring a rifle to a tank and artillery fight would be the same argument. 

I think whatever unarmed combat is useful for the cops the army can adopt, without any need for changes, except for maybe compressing the course. Anybody on the forum done both Police College and CF unarmed combat quals?  Are they similar?


----------



## medaid

The police use of force courses would not be adequate for a military application. The idea of a police use of force, empty hand control tactics are to disable for arresting purposes. Which have good grounding and the basics are indeed all there for a military application, but do not include techniques to permanently disable an opponent. Using the police use of force empty hand control techniques would be useful in establishing a baseline for a program, however other more 'advanced' techniques would need to be added. When I say advanced I do not mean complicated, I merely mean techniques which would do more damage and could cost the threat their lives. I agree that we need to teach knife fighting as it is an important skill to learn, practice and retain. Truth be known, everyone is a knife 'expert'. Anyone who has seen a knife fight on t.v. Can use a knife quite adequately. Speed, agility and surprise are what's going to get the opponent. What's hard about knife is how to defend against such an attack. Remember the 10 angles of attack of the human body.


----------



## Reccesoldier

The average soldier needs an effective toolbox of simple, proven and universally applicable moves, trained to the point of muscle memory, that's it, that's all.  

I do believe however that EVERY soldier needs the same toolbox available and UC should be taught as a matter of course.


----------



## medaid

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> The average soldier needs an effective toolbox of simple, proven and universally applicable moves, trained to the point of muscle memory, that's it, that's all.
> 
> I do believe however that EVERY soldier needs the same toolbox available and UC should be taught as a matter of course.



Agreed. Fast, hard and 110% aggression when needed. Its all about how fast and effective YOU can be to take you opponent down. But it also comes to the willingness to do it, failure to act is the difference between life and death. In comparison it may be easier to shoot someone from afar and never see their deaths, but it is something else to take the life with your bare hands inches away from your own eyes.


----------



## edgar

The penitentiaries are full of people who are proven to be fast, hard, and 110% aggressive. Who are willing to take lives inches in front of their eyes. Perhaps we should turn to them for instruction. I'm sure Timmy Taliban is just as much the hard man as you are.

Did you forget that the prototypical RBSD course of instruction was taught to the commandos by a Shanghai policeman? Ask your police pals how their will to live and defeat the threat differs from that of a soldier. The only difference is cops (and pen guards) get lots more practice.

If arrest techniques are irrelevant to a soldier, why did 3VP give me all those zip ties when we went to Croatia? 
Cops in the real world tend to ground and pound anyway, but I don't see how "disable for arrest" differs from plain old "disable". The significant difference is cops learn to explain their actions in legalese where soldiers would say, "kick him in the balls until he gives up", when what they really mean is "kick him in the balls until he gives up".


----------



## medaid

edgar said:
			
		

> The penitentiaries are full of people who are proven to be fast, hard, and 110% aggressive. Who are willing to take lives inches in front of their eyes. Perhaps we should turn to them for instruction. I'm sure Timmy Taliban is just as much the hard man as you are.
> 
> Did you forget that the prototypical RBSD course of instruction was taught to the commandos by a Shanghai policeman? Ask your police pals how their will to live and defeat the threat differs from that of a soldier. The only difference is cops (and pen guards) get lots more practice.
> 
> If arrest techniques are irrelevant to a soldier, why did 3VP give me all those zip ties when we went to Croatia?
> Cops in the real world tend to ground and pound anyway, but I don't see how "disable for arrest" differs from plain old "disable". The significant difference is cops learn to explain their actions in legalese where soldiers would say, "kick him in the balls until he gives up", when what they really mean is "kick him in the balls until he gives up".



The Shanghai policeman was a British Officer named Fairbarn hence the commando blade. I never said that their will to live was different it's the same. All members go home to their families, and all soldiers do too. I never said that they were different. I also never said that arrest techniques are irrelevant, I said that the entire police UoF empty hand control techniques are GOOD BASICS for the grounding in a MILITARY application. Members in real life don't tend to 'ground and pound' anyone who purposely ground themselves is stupid. They are dragged into that situation when the subjects become combative and have somehow brought the members to their ground with them. Anyone in a ground fight with THEIR backs to the ground is in a weak position, and unless properly trained will not be able to adequately defend and neutralize the threat. I've been on the streets next to my 'police pals' and not once did either of us get dragged to the ground, and we didn't POUND either. The only time my knees have touched the ground was to arrest an uncooperative suspect that was put to the ground by us. 

The difference in my point of view between 'disable for arrest' is that you cause the necessary amount of pain compliance in order for you to effect an arrest, and the term 'disable' to me at least means to take them out of the action. It does not mean to arrest, it means just that, disable. But that's arguing over semantics. Soldiers need to be able to explain their actions too, that's the whole reason why we have ROEs. Someone who could've been taken down with an empty hand control hard, the soldier decided to buttstrike them or even use deadly force would not be looked upon kindly. To think that soldiers are in someway less accountable in legal terms with what they do and what they say, is something that may get people into trouble.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> Quick, violent and dirty! The only unfair fight is the one you loose...



This is my favorite comment in this thread.  

As far as police techniques used in a combat situation, it would be pretty hard to generalize.  We get training on various strikes and combinations, but nothing terribly technique oriented.  IMO that is a double edged situation (pun unintended, but a bonus in any case).  We don't get all hung up on some sweet looking form or technique and thereby derail the practical aspects of what we have learned.  By the same token, I have seen a few members that would be having to dig a lot deeper than some if they didn't have back up or their LTL options.  As far as defending against a knife in a critical situation, there is plenty of proof that a knowledgeable knife wielder can do tonnes of brutal damage in no time flat.  Bad guy has a knife?  Shoot him.  I would hope our soldiers are doing the same thing (ROE's and verbal interaction issues aside).  If the bad guy gets the drop on you and you can't get to your firearm, our current technique against the knife is grab the hand with the knife and hammer away with your knees, feet or whatever you can.  Whatever gets the knife away.  
That being said, I know I'll have my own stabby thing on me when I'm over on tour.  But things will have had to go to a real dump for me to have been separated from both my rifle and my pistol.  
As far as articulation goes, that should be an entire class (maybe it is, and I am not aware  :-\)  All I can say is if anyone is asked to speak to the level of force used, use the language of the ROE's to explain and illustrate what your _belief_ of the situation was and _your_ perceptions of your enemies abilities and means.   And then get someone senior that you trust to look it over before you hand it in.  There are heaps of brutal decisions and case law against the police where guys were doing the right thing for the right reasons, but they failed to transmit it to paper in the right manner and got their arses handed to them in court.  Doubtless our Blackwater friends are working at this very issue as we speak.


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## edgar

MedTech said:
			
		

> To think that soldiers are in someway less accountable in legal terms with what they do and what they say, is something that may get people into trouble.



Exactly. Lives are at stake, pain compliance only works if it can lead to injury when resisted, and we are all subject to the criminal code. In terms of the use of force decisions, and the physical technology, and the paperwork afterward, the gap has narrowed to negligible. 
For that reason, there are logistical economies to be had sharing systems with cops. Given how far down the do list unarmed is for a soldier, I think the time and money budget allocated to it is ample.

PS: The best antidote to believing fancy knife defence techniques will work is a burly friend with a red jiffy marker. You see for yourself that the Zipperhead cop's training was correct. (This comment is aimed mostly at the ninjas. They are invisible of course, but you know they are here). Cops put you on the ground for a while, then they put you in the car. Whether they pound depends on whether you give up and accept the cuffs. If you're lucky the dog don't get in it. Contrary to popular belief, some Brazilians like to be on top.

Zipperhead you reminded me of the Brinks guy in California got charged for running over a guy with his truck. When the cop asked why he did it he said "cuz he just shot my buddy". Busted. What he should have said was "I reasonably believed he immanently was _going to_ shoot my buddy if I failed to act with the only means available to me at that point in time" (or something like that).


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## edgar

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> As far as articulation goes, that should be an entire class (maybe it is, and I am not aware  :-\)  All I can say is if anyone is asked to speak to the level of force used, use the language of the ROE's to explain and illustrate what your _belief_ of the situation was and _your_ perceptions of your enemies abilities and means.   And then get someone senior that you trust to look it over before you hand it in.  There are heaps of brutal decisions and case law against the police where guys were doing the right thing for the right reasons, but they failed to transmit it to paper in the right manner and got their arses handed to them in court.  Doubtless our Blackwater friends are working at this very issue as we speak.



I think the use of force lectures the cops get should be given to the troops in their ROE and Laws of War lectures too. People seem to forget that the Criminal Code sets the minimum ROE for us as Canadians, the wallet card is bonus. As they learn about the levels of force and the sections of the code regarding the use of force they will not only be better equipped to understand what's on the wallet card, but they will learn the terms and concepts they need to explain themselves after the poo hits. All you'd need to change is the background for the ppt slides. Or maybe they already do a better job of this now than when I was in.


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## Greymatters

The CF already has its own ROE, blessed by the Solicitor General.  And ROE for police forces are not adequate for CF duties overseas.  I.e. Police officers rarely have to worry about standing a guard duty and firing warning shots at possible attackers armed with suicide vests.


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## edgar

Greymatters said:
			
		

> The CF already has its own ROE, blessed by the Solicitor General.  And ROE for police forces are not adequate for CF duties overseas.  I.e. Police officers rarely have to worry about standing a guard duty and firing warning shots at possible attackers armed with suicide vests.


Read the whole post. The wallet card is bonus. The code sets the minimum standard we all adhere to.


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## Greymatters

edgar said:
			
		

> The code sets the minimum standard we all adhere to.



That I can agree with...


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## a_majoor

I think we need to remember the "unarmed combat" stuff is only one tool in the kitbag, and the applications would be fairly limited in scope (Arnold Schwarzenegger movies aside). I could see takedown and holds useful in CCO, or if some clown tries to grab your rifle away from you while you are doing a presence patrol. I'm sure lots of other scenarios can be mooted, but in _most cases_ alternative scenarios that I have seen or read are usually covered under escalation of force and more practically dealt with that way as well.

Even the notorious "Silent Sentry Take-out" scenario is best done with a silenced weapon (and the people most likely to do a silent sentry take-out probably carry them as well......)


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## ArmyRick

The CF currently teaches the 5 levels of the continuum of force to CQC (B) and CQCI students. The continuum of force is used in conjuction with Thaeter ROE and definately used in domestic operations as it is based on what civilian police do. 

Does the continuum of force have military application. Yes, it does.

In theater would you shoot an enemy soldier who is willfully surrendering? No. he is compliant.
Would you shoot an enemy soldier shooting at you? Yes. It is a deadly force assault.

Above all, CF members have the right to protect themselves and fellow CF members. Now it does get a bit different in each theater with some specifics (Stealing mission essential equipment, riots, etc, etc).

Once again, the continuum of force is used in conjuction with the ROEs.

As far as what is effective and what is not? We teach a basic and advanced level program in the CF CQC and the techniques are simple, easy to learn but must be practiced often. Are they effective? It will depend on each soldier and their ability to employ the techniques and the expirience level of the opponent he deals with.

I will say this. I have taught alot of basic CQC serials and most of the techniques are picked up quite quickly and easily.


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## SoldierInTheMaking

I was wondering what kind of close quarter combat training they do in the infantry training....for example do they do any mixed martial arts, or boxing or anything like that? and is there any like boxing tourneys or anything that goes on?


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## aesop081

What does this have to do with basic training ?


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## Fishbone Jones

It's been covered, do a search.........and please do one for the rest of your questions before you ask them.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## sharki9876

Do the reserves do it at all?

Yes I did look for this using the search function before posting.

Thank you,
Philip


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## GreenWood

We had the Gatineau police come in and give us a two day training seminar, and that's about it.


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## Remius

Yes.  But it is mostly a unit by unit thing.  Some do it right with qualified instructors some do it wrong with bullshido.

It won't be taught on BMQ and very unlikely to be taught on your trade qual course with a few exceptions (not sure if reserve MPs do any of that or not)


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## sharki9876

Crantor said:
			
		

> But it is mostly a unit by unit thing.



Is this common to the entire CF to implement their training on a unit by unit basis, is it just the reserves that are inconsistent like this?

Thanks for the info


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## Remius

sharki9876 said:
			
		

> Is this common to the entire CF to implement their training on a unit by unit basis, is it just the reserves that are inconsistent like this?
> 
> Thanks for the info



There are standards for everything we do however each unit will have varying yearly training plans and schedules.  What one reserve unit does one night another might be doing something completely different.  everything is decided from the top down.  Division will decree it's focus then the Brigades will tell the units what their arcs are for training then the units must achieve those benchmarks.  They will have the mandated training as well as some flexibility to throw in some other stuff at their discretion. 

Unarmed combat is a thing.  It requires an instructor who is qualified.  Some units will bring in SME's like police officers or Krav maga guys or might have guys that are martial artists but none of them can teach unarmed combat in a formal setting.  We have a few qualified CF instructors at our unit and they do run some lessons from time to time in the training schedule.  Some of it might also be for PT sessions to mix things up.  Week night training can be a challenge to keep troops motivated.

And to answer your question, there are inconsistencies throughout the CAF in many things but we all have the same doctrine.


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## Loachman

mariomike said:
			
		

> Hand to Hand Combat  ( 9 pages. )
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/516/post-4775.html#msg4775
> 
> Reply #3.



'Twould be better for all by far if the Res F taught Mariomikejitsu Internet Search Skills rather than hand-to-hand combat.


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## krimynal

I'd prefere the TaekLoachmando technique of "How about we stop spoon feeding the society !"


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## MJP

krimynal said:
			
		

> I'd prefere the TaekLoachmando technique of "How about we stop spoon feeding the society !"



The irony of you posting that is hopefully not lost.


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## krimynal

Yeah I know I've been spoofed a lot too lol !

which is why me posting it was even funnier lol !


and yeah it's pretty funny how lost I sound sometimes on here ( trust me I know how bad it looks lol )


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## RedcapCrusader

If you're lucky you can get onto a Close Quarters Combat course. But good luck, it's very popular and fills quickly, mainly by RegF Infantry first.


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## daftandbarmy

'Hand to mouth' training probably more accurately describes the reservist experience these days  ;D


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## The Bread Guy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Hand to Hand Combat  ( 9 pages. )
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/516/post-4775.html#msg4775
> 
> Reply #3.


Thanks MM - and merged.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


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## FinnO25

*Admins please move this thread in the appropriate spot if there is one*

Okay, so I have a little tip for all Infantrymen coming to battalion out of DP1. Specifically out of Meaford, because this isn't an issue with the Wainright training process. When it comes time for CQC (The hand to hand combat portion of your training) Unless you have a real injury, don't skip CQC because you are afraid to fight your peers. This is a continuous issue from Meaford with new privates, coming to battalion without your CQC qualification not only makes you "DAG" red, but it also makes you less of an essential solider. Trust me when I say, CQCB is alot easier in Meaford then it is in battalion. If you come here without CQC you will do the course in battalion with people getting re-qualified, which means it wont be other privates you're fighting it will be SGT's, Mcpl's and Cpl's. So again unless you are seriously injured when CQC rolls around, don't skip it.

Good luck with your training process!


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