# Wings



## money (6 Jul 2011)

Back in '68 when the Regiment was formed I understood that there was a difference in the colour of the Maple Leaf on the Airborne Paratrooper Badge.

Initially I was told that RED meant Jump Qualified and a White one meant " served with the Regiment".

Anyone out there know the exact difference????

My thanks
William


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## Swingline1984 (6 Jul 2011)

As you said; red means qualified.  White means you have, or are serving in an active jump position i.e. a jump Coy, Airborne Regt, CSOR etc.


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## Swingline1984 (6 Jul 2011)

MGalantine said:
			
		

> Red: Completed the Parachutist Course
> White: Served at least one year in regiment in active position.
> 
> Best of my knowledge, could be wrong.



There is no time restraint.


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## Old Sweat (6 Jul 2011)

As I recall the white maple leaf was introduced sometime in the mid-seventies for the purpose stated above. I must add I am not sure that the one year figure was part of it, at least back then.

If anybody cares, there was an attempt around 1970-1971 to introduce a CF pattern wing with the wings bent upward in the arc such as was used for certain air force "back of the plane" badges. It was short lived, very, very short lived.


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## Swingline1984 (6 Jul 2011)

Just for clarity (as I have heard the 1 yr thing before), Dress Regs only state the following with regards to wearing of para wings (my copy is a little old so some items on the list may differ from yours):

13. Parachute Badge. Two versions exist:

a. The Parachute Badge with white maple leaf
is worn by parachutists who have received
Paratroop Allowance for:

(1) service on strength of one of the
following operational airborne
formations or units:

(a) Specifically designated Regular and
Militia army sub-units assigned to
the airborne role,

(b) Canadian Parachute Centre; or

(2) service on strength of one of the
following previous airborne formations
or units:

(a) Special Service Force,

(b) Canadian Airborne Regiment,

(c) Canadian Airborne Centre,

(d) CF Parachute Maintenance Depot,

(e) Mobile Strike Force,

(f) Defence of Canada Force,

(g) Canadian Joint Air Training Centre,
and

(h) 28 Central Ordnance Depot.

b. Other qualified parachutists shall wear the
red maple leaf Parachute Badge.


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## money (6 Jul 2011)

THANKS a LOT guys, that clarifies things

My Gratitude

William


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## 57Chevy (6 Jul 2011)

MGalantine said:
			
		

> White: Served at least one year in regiment in active position.



Two years in a jump position when I served with the CAR 77-79.


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## PiperDown (6 Jul 2011)

Fact.

The day you clear into a unit in designated jump position you put up your "white" leaf.
I know many, many people who have been in DEU ( or back in the day, jump smock) within days of clearing in who are wearing the white leaf. ( even though, they have yet to do their 7th jump ! )


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## 57Chevy (7 Jul 2011)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> Fact.
> 
> The day you clear into a unit in designated jump position you put up your "white" leaf.
> I know many, many people who have been in DEU ( or back in the day, jump smock) within days of clearing in who are wearing the white leaf. ( even though, they have yet to do their 7th jump ! )



Obviously when you are posted to a designated jump position you wear the "white" wings. But to retain them after leaving, you must have served the full 2 years in said jump position.


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## Journeyman (7 Jul 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Obviously when you are posted to a designated jump position you wear the "white" wings. But to retain them after leaving, you must have served the full 2 years in said jump position.


There is no such regulation. 
That 'fact' is just as valid as "all _real_ paratroopers have their wings tattooed on their hand between thumb and forefinger."

It just ain't so -- no matter how many times it's said, or if you include the argument-winning term, "obviously."


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## 57Chevy (7 Jul 2011)

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/055-10-eng.asp
PARACHUTE BADGE

19. A CF parachute badge may be awarded to a member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for parachutists.

20. Members who have received military training or courses from other countries for which the requirements are deemed to be equivalent may be authorized to wear the CF parachute badge subject to approval by NDHQ/DLO (Director Land Operations).

21. A student parachutist is eligible for the award of the parachute badge upon successful completion of the CF parachutist course.

22. A qualified parachutist will normally forfeit the parachute badge when:
a.after qualification on a CF-approved parachutist course, the member refuses to serve as a parachutist;
b.the member requests to discontinue parachuting before completion two years of satisfactory parachute duty;
c.after volunteering for service in the Canadian Airborne Regiment, the member refuses to serve there as a parachutist after qualification on a CF-approved parachutist course; or
d.the member refuses to make a parachute descent at any time while serving in a position in an airborne unit for which the member is entitled to draw paratroop allowance.


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## Journeyman (7 Jul 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> 22. A qualified parachutist will normally forfeit the parachute badge when:
> a.after qualification on a CF-approved parachutist course, the member refuses to serve as a parachutist;
> b.the member requests to discontinue parachuting before completion two years of satisfactory parachute duty;


Yes, that refers to the badge itself -- you know, the yellow wings and white parachute bit -- regardless of leaf colour. 

Again, there is no regulation stating two years to retain the white maple leaf. It has come up occasionally during my several years in various designated parachutist positions, and no one has found such a regulation.


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## 57Chevy (8 Jul 2011)

I completed my basic jump course in 1976 and was awarded my "Red wings" parachute badge.

About a year later I was posted to the CAR. and underwent what is known as the "Maroon Beret Course" which was in fact very similar to the Basic Parachutist course. Upon successfull completion of said course I was awarded my "White wings" parachute badge and the Maroon Beret. 

Emmediately after that, we signed official paperwork to serve at least two full years with the Regiment ( but you wouldn't know that ) and thus became entitled to "jump pay".

This was followed by a brief "meet and greet" with some already serving members of the CAR and integrated into the "commandos".

The CFAO was based on service with the Canadian Airborne Regiment and every commando was
aware of the forfeiture policy. The CFAO using the phrase "will normally forfeit" is clear in that respect.

 22. A qualified parachutist will normally forfeit the parachute badge when:

1.after qualification on a * CF-approved parachutist course, the member refuses to serve as a parachutist;

* The Basic Paracutist course. 
   In this case, you would normally forfeit your "red wings" parachute badge.

2. the member requests to discontinue parachuting before completion two years of satisfactory parachute duty;

After signing on the line that is neither here nor there (the dotted line) to serve two years, the qualified parachutist (commando) will normally forfeit the "white wings" parachutist badge.

3. after volunteering for service in the Canadian Airborne Regiment, the member refuses to serve there as a parachutist after *qualification on a CF-approved parachutist course;

*By this, they mean "The Maroon Beret course". And again, the qualified parachutist (commando) will normally forfeit the "white wings" parachutist badge. 
     or
1.the member refuses to make a parachute descent at any time while serving in a position in an airborne unit for which the member is entitled to draw paratroop allowance.

And again, the same thing applies here.

How the CFAO interpretation applies since the CAR era may have changed, but you can rest assured,
it applied back then.

One of the nice things about serving two years with the CAR is that afterwards you were almost guaranteed the choice of either:
a. staying
b. going back to your home unit
c. rebadging to another unit or,
d. remustering into a trade.


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## Journeyman (8 Jul 2011)

> ....we signed official paperwork to serve at least two full years with the Regiment ( but you wouldn't know that )


 You're right, during my years in the Airborne Regiment (and other "designated jump positions"), we never had to sign paperwork saying we'd do our jobs.  :

Back to the topic, however, _once again_ you merely cite your flawed interpretation of an irrelevant CFAO. 

The regulation you quote says "parachute badge" -- which is to say "_the parachute badge_," not "_the parachute badge, with the really special white maple leaf_," --  you blindly insist that "what the CFAO really, truly means to say is....." 

I've found that CFAO are "orders"...not really "bar room and Legion-conversation suggestions" open to random interpretations (but you wouldn't know that). 

Because you continue to argue, without fact, since NO SUCH RELEVANT REGULATION EXISTS, there can _obviously_ be no intellectual closure to this "debate."* 
I'm done.



*The story of mud-wrestling with a pig comes to mind.


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## 57Chevy (9 Jul 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> we never had to sign paperwork saying we'd do our jobs.



We all enthusiatically volunteered to sign a commitment to serve with the Canadian Airborne Regiment.



Tour lengths in the CAR varied, but generally the more junior ranks stayed for longer periods. The normal tour for an officer was two to three years; for senior NCOs it was generally two to four years. However, members could stay with the CAR indefinitely if they were willing to continue to volunteer for Airborne service.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/reports-rapports/som/vol2/vol208-eng.asp


I see that a similar question was brought up before and was answered appropriately in the following thread:



			
				SprCForr said:
			
		

> An aside: Do they make divers take the badge down if they rescind themselves? They use to, do they still?


 
and again here:



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Although jumpers need to stay current, the course is only done once per career. If jumper does not stay current, they need only do the refresher. The basic para qual stays -- always (unless, of course, one should refuse a posting upgrade to a white wing area ... then the cherry wings can be removed from the refusing member -- sometimes forcefully!!  ).







			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> *The story of mud-wrestling with a pig comes to mind.



Sure does !

First you start with sarcasm then you stoop to insults. 



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm done.



Ditto !


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## wildman0101 (10 Jul 2011)

OSONS Brother's,
You all earned your wing's
Stop fighting now or kick my own 
ass.
I tried to get on a jump course but 
other commitment's prevented that.
I did however wear the SSF Flash 
and was so very proud to serve in 
the SSF Brigade 8-CH(PL) Armoured
and to have served with you chap's.
Cheer's and best regard's,
Scoty B


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Jul 2011)

Scoty,

Many of us did our SSF thing, and proudly, if not somewhat reluctantly. Anyway, the connection between the SSF and this thread is extremely tenuous, at best.

However, thanks for caring.


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## wildman0101 (10 Jul 2011)

recceguy,
Copy that Ill shut-up now. LOL
What's happening your end of 
the world these day's. send PM
Sit-rep. 
Scoty B


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## wildman0101 (10 Jul 2011)

Recceguy,
Re: my last. My PM this site is not 
working so send sitrep to my 
Email: 
Thank's
Scoty B
P.S. for security reason's this post 
re: E-mail please delete.
P.S. Other than this I dont know how 
to keep in touch. Cheer's.


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## Swingline1984 (10 Jul 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> We all enthusiatically volunteered to sign a commitment to serve with the Canadian Airborne Regiment...etc, etc...



If you'll permit me to weigh in.  As Journeyman stated, you correctly claim that "the badge" (white/red/purple with zebra stripes) will/can be removed if you refuse to jump when given the order, however you are arguing apples and oranges.  There is no time restriction on the wearing of white wings (which was the OPs question).  You are entitled to wear them in perpetuity having served on strength of a mandated organization within an active role and you are entitled to wear them if your service was 2 days, 2 years or until death do us part.   The only caveat (which is tied to your point) is that if while performing that role you refuse to jump you will/can be stripped of your wings.   
:duel:


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## PanaEng (10 Jul 2011)

Damn, I thought you guys were talking about the engineer march: Wings...

I got  my white leaf and coin even though I was unavailable for the AIC (Airborne Indoctrination Course) when I first got to the unit.

cheers


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## wildman0101 (12 Jul 2011)

Red -Jump Qualified
White-Jump Quaified serving with 
Jump pay start's after you qualified  Red
(I:e) every time you jump after you qualified red.
As far as the CAR REGT is concerned and all other 
combat element's asociated and that have served
and were jump qualified to serve CAR.
All other jump qualification's earned other than CAR 
is a differnt badge/qualification all together.
Be it Navy/Airforce/Army/Search-Rescue and how 
that relate's to jump pay I dont know.
Recceguy-OSONS Brother.
Cheer's
Scoty B


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## Hurricane (14 Jul 2011)

What were the Dual Qualification Jump Wings awarded for?


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## Petard (16 Jul 2011)

Now to really muddy the waters...

Before the white wings, personnel serving or having served in a jump role wore a silver maple leaf pinned over the red leaf on his jump wings, when in CF's and later DEU uniform.
The change to white wings on dress uniforms (IIRC) occurred in the early 90's.


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## bick (16 Jul 2011)

Some of us still wear our silver maple leaf over our white one.


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## Petard (16 Jul 2011)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Some of us still wear our silver maple leaf over our white one.



As do I, this white wing business seemed to of come out just shortly after the Somalia business.


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## bick (16 Jul 2011)

When we converted to the "new" uniforms (DEU) I seem to recall us getting the white wings when they came back from the tailor shop.  We also got issued our Garrison Dress with a similar set of wings.


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## Petard (16 Jul 2011)

Not sure about that Rhodesian; I guess the point is they stopped issuing the silver maple leaf, I think it was about 94-95

I didn't go to the para Bty until 1990, which is about 2-3 years after DEU's came into service, and I was issued a silver maple leaf then to pin on the "DEU" wings". I suppose it depends on when someone got jump qualified too; before or after posting to a jump role. Back then, a jump qualified soldier typically didn't send the DEU jacket in to get new white wings sewn on once posted to a jump position, but pinned the silver maple leaf over the red one.


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## bick (16 Jul 2011)

Been wrong before and it was almost 25 yrs ago.  I also recall we stopped wearing our SSF boots (just higher ankle boots) at that time too and started with the garrison boots.  These were the only part of garrison dress we wore, the jacket, pants and shirts being stuffed in the bottom of kitbags.  If memory serves, the old CF wings were less "fancy" then the ones we had on the new DEU.


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## wildman0101 (17 Jul 2011)

Hurricane,
Good question,,, anyone care to exstrapolate?
Jump qualified Per's Re: Dual jump wing's?
Scoty B


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## Hurricane (18 Jul 2011)

Heres a photo just for reference


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## old fart (18 Jul 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> Heres a photo just for reference



Before white out brushed on if applicable.....usually wear those on CFs and the fancy small gold/silver leaf version on mess kit...


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## old fart (18 Jul 2011)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Some of us still wear our silver maple leaf over our white one.



I don't bother with that....

I have a copy of CAR RSOs in effect at disbandment, for the hell of it I dug them out to see what they offer, and they state, "Silver Maple Leaf  to be worn by those entitled."


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## old fart (18 Jul 2011)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> ...... If memory serves, the old CF wings were less "fancy" then the ones we had on the new DEU.



Exactly, and if I recall, only came with a red leaf which is why we had to pin on the silver leaf.


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## 57Chevy (18 Jul 2011)

old fart said:
			
		

> Exactly, and if I recall, only came with a red leaf which is why we had to pin on the silver leaf.



There was also the "white" metal wings for the shirt during the time of the "silver maple leaf".

I think that's where "white wings a.k.a. silver maple leaf" comes from. Or vice versa


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## old fart (18 Jul 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> There was also the "white" metal wings for the shirt during the time of the "silver maple leaf".
> 
> I think that's where "white wings a.k.a. silver maple leaf" comes from. Or vice versa



Agreed...same applies to the smock jumps wings which are white (and of course red).  

Bottom line,  they were generally referred to as white wings.....and 'silver leaf' if you were looking for one for your CFs at that time.


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## 57Chevy (19 Jul 2011)

old fart said:
			
		

> Agreed...same applies to the smock jumps wings which are white (and of course red).



I don't recall seeing anyone wearing "red wings" on a jump smock  ;D


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## Old Sweat (19 Jul 2011)

Not being one who would pass up a chance to be a pedantic dork, I have seen both type of wings on SSF smocks. The old Canadian Army parachute smock went out of use except for Airborne School people sometime around the time that the Airborne Regiment was formed. The army parachute badge - white wings and gold maple leaf - was worn on it as well as on battle dress, bush, serge and tropical worsted jackets/tunics.

Add: I believe the airborne regiment wore a smock which was distinct from both the army model and the SSF type, but I cannot recall any details re when it was adopted and what it looked like.


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## cupper (22 Jul 2011)

And now to muddy the waters completely.

Anybody know the answer to this question? When one was qualified as a pathfinder, did they wear both a set of jump wings and a the pathfinder badge?


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## Rheostatic (22 Jul 2011)

cupper said:
			
		

> When one was qualified as a pathfinder, did they wear both a set of jump wings and a the pathfinder badge?


Yes.


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## wildman0101 (23 Jul 2011)

Hurricane,
If I remember correctly and I could be wrong, any who served with CAR 
and were jump qualified or qualified Para(RED)(White) wore the wing's
both depending on country of origine/dress reg's,ect. Some wore both
and were allowed to do so,Re: wearing 2 PARA wing's. As for our CAR 
soldier's (PARA-RED)(PARA-WHITE) who have served other countrie's
and qualified (PARA)(Other Countries) I dont know.i would hazard a 
guess and say they can wear both. Then again the only thing I jump-
ed outa was a tank,,, usually for grit's...
Cheer's,
Scoty B


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## bick (23 Jul 2011)

"Red" wings were worn by pers in the SSF who were parachute qualified and had not had the opportunity to serve in a para position.  For example, soldiers in 1 RCR.

Before the Cdn Army issued the metal pin on Patrol Pathfinder badge, many in the Regiment wore the US Army badge on the CF/DEU.


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## kevinm (26 Jul 2011)

All,

I post my question here, as I'm short on time.

I have a young fellow being rtu'd tomorrow from Trenton. He froze on the tower during his PO check. Training review board tomorrow 0730. I am not hopeful that the decision will be reversed.

He's 17. No troubles off the tower in Edmonton; no troubles during pre-para.

Has anyone had experience in turning this negative experience into a positive? What do I tell this guy?

All replys appreciated.

Thanks,

KM


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## 57Chevy (24 Aug 2011)

kevinm said:
			
		

> All,
> 
> I post my question here, as I'm short on time.
> 
> ...



Just wondering what became of that young fellow ?


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## Journeyman (24 Aug 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> What were the Dual Qualification Jump Wings awarded for?


Any hazardous skill badge with a crown takes precedence over the para wings (or pathfinder badge). So the badge with the crown, whether combat diver or flight attendant, goes above the ribbons/medals and the miniature jump wing goes on the pocket.


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## Jungle (24 Aug 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Any hazardous skill badge with a crown takes precedence over the para wings (or pathfinder badge). So the badge with the crown, whether combat diver or flight attendant, goes above the ribbons/medals and the miniature jump wing goes on the pocket.



I'm curious to find out who decided to make the Flight Attendant Wings take precedence over the Para Wings, and the thought process that brought that decision...


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## Journeyman (24 Aug 2011)

It's simply that the aircrew wing has a crown and our para wing does not. I'm not saying it's right   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I discovered this after briefing the tribal elders in Ottawa, when the generals and admirals started debating the precedence/seniority of service/etc regarding the badges on my tunic; I was wearing three Canadian badges (with and without crown -- none was the stewardess wing   ). 

The Deputy Minister just rolled his eyes.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Aug 2011)

Jungle said:
			
		

> I'm curious to find out who decided to make the Flight Attendant Wings take precedence over the Para Wings, and the thought process that brought that decision...



Because a flight attendant is useful?? >

[your not coming to the Army run this year are you my friend?] :duel:


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## Blackadder1916 (24 Aug 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> . . . . .  the generals and admirals started debating the precedence/seniority of service/etc regarding the badges on my tunic . . . . .
> 
> The Deputy Minister just rolled his eyes.



A good illustration that "buttons and bows" does occupy the attention of senior military leadership when they should be doing something else.


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## Jungle (24 Aug 2011)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> [your not coming to the Army run this year are you my friend?] :duel:



No, both the 5k and 1/2 marathon are sold out, but my wife and I would like to do the 1/2 marathon next year.


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## Jungle (24 Aug 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I was wearing three Canadian badges (with and without crown -- none was the stewardess wing   ).



Is that one of the 3 trades in the CF you haven't tried ? Or is it because they do not accept Officers in that job ??


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## Journeyman (24 Aug 2011)

I didn't have the butt for it  :'(

...bitch


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## cupper (24 Aug 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I didn't have the butt for it  :'(
> 
> ...bitch



It takes a real man to admit that. ;D


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## SomeJumper (10 Oct 2011)

Do you lose your basic para qualification if you get out of the military and then re-enlist?
My Orderly Room tells me that I can not get my Basic Para qualification on my MPRR, even though I have served in a para company after re-enlisting, and getting paid as a paratrooper, all while I did not have a basic para qualification on my MPRR (which I did not know at the time). I am now in a different trade. I still have my wings on my uniform and nobody has ordered me to take them off. I have my original course report and pay statements which show me getting paid as a paratrooper.
ullhair:


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## aesop081 (10 Oct 2011)

Excerpt of CFAO 55-10



> PARACHUTE BADGE
> 
> 19. A CF parachute badge may be awarded to a member of the Regular or Reserve Force after successful completion of formal CF training or a CF qualifying course for parachutists.
> 
> ...



The qualification should have been carried over, through PLAR, when you re-enlisted and thus be on your MPRR.
the member refuses to make a parachute descent at any time while serving in a position in an airborne unit for which the member is entitled to draw paratroop allowance.


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## SomeJumper (10 Oct 2011)

What are the proper steps for me to take then if my unit OR will not fix this?


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## aesop081 (10 Oct 2011)

SomeJumper said:
			
		

> What are the proper steps for me to take then if my unit OR will not fix this?



Same as most other things : Engage your chain of command either verbaly or through memorandum.


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## PuckChaser (10 Oct 2011)

SomeJumper said:
			
		

> What are the proper steps for me to take then if my unit OR will not fix this?



Include a photocopy of your course report in your memo requesting Basic Para being added to your MPRR.


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## Journeyman (11 Oct 2011)

SomeJumper said:
			
		

> ....I have served in a para company after re-enlisting, and getting paid as a paratrooper, all while I did not have a basic para qualification on my MPRR...


OK, just to confirm your question isn't written as a 'barrack room lawyer'....you did successfully complete a basic para course, right?


I ask, only because I know of troops in Jump Coys who were not para qualified, and even if the OR staff mistakenly paid them as jumpers, that's not doesn't give them the qualification.


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## SomeJumper (13 Oct 2011)

Yes I completed my Basic Para course ...............


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## Journeyman (13 Oct 2011)

OK

Therefore, as per PuckChaser, send a memo up the chain of command, preferably including a photocopy of your Basic plane-leaving course report, requesting AHYL (Basic Para) be added to your MPRR.


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