# Reinstate the Airborne Petition



## RoyalHighlander (23 Jun 2003)

http://www.canadianalliance.ca/english/index-details.asp?ID=2074 
Good idea????


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## ninty9 (23 Jun 2003)

Yes, it is a good idea.

Will a petition do anything in parliment?  I highly doubt it.  The current government won‘t put the money or resources into resurrecting the airborne.

I doubt even if it would get to that point where there was actual discussion on the subject from a petition.  How many signatures do you think they‘re going to get?  Not many because it‘s time consuming and "hard" to do by todays standards.  Online petitions are what people are looking for.  I‘m sure most don‘t really want to print this thing out, find 24 people to sign it and then buy a stamp and send it off to the CA.  Thats just the way it goes these days.


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## Korus (23 Jun 2003)

I guess you didn‘t read the part stating free postage.


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## ninty9 (23 Jun 2003)

Obviously not.

Does that go for all letters going to MP‘s and other government officials?


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## klumanth (23 Jun 2003)

Just a small note here.  We are supposed to be politically neutral so you may want think twice before signing petitions generated by a political party.  Do I seriously think something would come of it if signed your name on any of these petitions?  No, but nevertheless... it‘s part of being a soldier to support whatever government in power even if they don‘t support us.  But I didn‘t say that.


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## klumanth (23 Jun 2003)

ah, here it is.  Just in case anyone here wanted to sign this or any other petition they should at least be aware.

QR&O Chapter 19
19.10 â€“ COMBINATIONS FORBIDDEN
No officer or non-commissioned member shall without authority:

  (a) combine with other members for the purpose of bringing about alterations in existing regulations for the Canadian Forces;

  (b) sign with other members memorials, petitions or applications relating to the Canadian Forces; or

  (c) obtain or solicit signatures for memorials, petitions or applications relating to the Canadian Forces.


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## Fader (24 Jun 2003)

I‘m sure this has come up before, but why was the airborne originally disbanded?  I heard the REAL story was because one numpty beat a civilian to death, and rather than blaming that individual, the entire regiment got the blame... then again, I don‘t really remember the story, so can anyone help me out?


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## ninty9 (24 Jun 2003)

The airborne went into Somalia on a combat mission, not peacekeeping but was not well enough equipped to keep people out and the troops safe.  Many times Somalies were caught inside the Canadians base.  One Somalie was beaten to death and basically tortured by a few Canadian paratroopers.  This led to a cover-up by th government, which eventually led to more lies.  By 95 the Airborne had been rejuvinated by getting rid of the bad apples.  The problem was basically solved, however, much damage had been done and the government decided it was best to scrap the entire unit.  

What I described was a very vague generalization.  I am not in the Airborne, nor have I ever been.  I have read a few websites on the topic, had an Economics Professor who was in the Navy and knew Airborne guys, and I watched a couple specials on CBC and the History Channel.  That is where I get my information from.  I don‘t want to step on any toes.

For more detailed information go to:

 http://www.commando.org/


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## Korus (24 Jun 2003)

From what I‘ve heard, the CAR was on the chopping block before the Somolia incident. The Somolia incident just was used as an excuse to get rid of it.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Jun 2003)

Isn‘t it illegal for soldiers to sign petitions?


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## Deleted member 585 (28 Jun 2003)

Ghost778, see QR&O Chapter 19 as cited by Maven.

Cheers!


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## Jarnhamar (29 Jun 2003)

AH ha. Supose i should read the whole tread first next time


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## ForeverPvt (10 Jul 2003)

The disbanding of the Airborne was a tragic blow to our armed forces in terms of prestige and morale.  The problem faced with reinstating an entire regiment boils down to cost and man power though.  We simply cannot afford to strip units of this quantity of trained soldiers and then replace them with Joe Civie.  The current solution of Para Coys‘ meets our needs and frees up a good chunk of operating capitol.


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## combat_medic (10 Jul 2003)

ForeverPvt: If you think the current CF airborne capability is sufficient, consider this:

All of the Para Coys are located in opposing ends of the country. They have to come to a central location to train, and are required to do a minimum number of jumps (3-4 I think) every year to remain current. 

As it stands now, there are nowhere NEAR the number of airplanes, pilots, fuel and allotments for parachuting to supply every para Coy with everything they need. For example: since 3 PPCLI has trouble accessing Hercs (the hercs are incredibly overtasked as it is), often they have to do jumps out of chinooks, because of the proximity of 408 helicopter squadron. This isn‘t a bad thing, but it makes it clear how stretched our assets really are. If they were located in Trenton, however, where the jump school is, there is an allotment of hercs currently in place who are tasked with parachuting. It just makes logistical sense (which is probably why it isn‘t being done    ).

ALSO, only 1 Coy out of 3 in a battalion is airborne capable, so the battalion commander can‘t plan any battalion level airborne ops, since it is in no way possible to have all the paratroopers in the same location at the same time.

Would it not make a great deal more sense to keep them all in the same location, somewhere where the assets to keep the trained is readily available, where they can remain current in all of their training without having to fly across the country several times a year, as well as being able to deploy quickly. Since they are a light infantry unit, even without airborne assets, it‘s much easier logistically to deploy (without the requirement of armour, as many vehicles, fuel etc.) than it is for a mechanized battalion.


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## Doug VT (11 Jul 2003)

Sorry, 408 doesn‘t have any Chinooks.  The CF didn‘t think they were any good and got rid of them many moons ago...
A person in a "Hard Para Position" must jump at least once every 90 days or he must do a refresher, which is technically better then a jump because you have to practice all of your drills.
CPC often has the same problems with Herc‘s as everyone else!


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## OLD SCHOOL (11 Jul 2003)

Nice to see the piece of crap they are using now.
Can‘t lift a sack full of wet s***.

Gimme the old Chinook any day or night for that matter.

Jumping in the U.S is the way to go.They could lift half the world anytime any place.Great jump programs too. Did 22 jumps in 4 days once.

Loved the airborne here at home but Maroon Berets will always survive somehow. Had a few colours in my time but I was proud to wear maroon.


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## Ruthless4Life (11 Jul 2003)

I believe in the Canadian Alliance election campaign proposal it includes the reinstatement of the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

But whether the CA will keep their promise, that‘s another story.

Ruthless


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## combat_medic (11 Jul 2003)

Doug: I had to look back on my own post on that one. I meant to say Griffons, don‘t know why Chinook came out. Probably because I‘m on course and am seriously sleep f#$ked.


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## Pte Lickers (11 Jul 2003)

In my limited knowledge of the airborne, I heard a few men tortured and beat a teenager to death.  The camp had a problem with ppl breaking into it to steal anything they could lay their hands on.  They would prbobaly kill for your pair of boots.  Anyways they caught  a guy and killed him through torture and displayed his body as a trophy which is horrific no matter what the circumstances.  T

The unit also had problems with disipline at the time and control of the unit was being lost by the officers.  There were fights at the Karina club (the aibrone club in Petawawa).  They disbanded before something worse happened in Canada itself.  They also diosbanded it because everyone was covering for everyone else and they didnt know hopw deep or high it went.

Unfortunately MOST blame can be put on the government who sent a highly trained motivated and elite unit overseas with dire warnings of dangers of what to expect on their "police" action.  As consequnece the airboren took a no **** from anybody attitude.  The y did the equivalent of sending the JTF 2 on angry pills to guard a high school dance.  

Also  if the government wanted to spend more money and resoruces they could of easily found the right people to blame and took action on those alone, but money is money and it was cheaper to disband the whole unit.  Also at this phase the CF had already begun to be slashed for money by the current governemt.  Not only that but the public wanted the military as a whole to pay and to make sure everyone was punished.  They were horrified and wanted blood.  This probably the only time the general public dwelled apon justice in the ruling and not compassion.

Now before I get any angry airborne guys jumping me in the streets and sodomizing my corpse Id like to say all this info is from other sources and could potentially be wrong, I wasnt there so I wouldn‘t know for usre.  If you know for sure that something in this post is incorrect plz correct it and accept my apologies.

The disbanding of the airborne was a blow to the morale and esprit du corp of the CF.  However in my eyes anyone who was Ex-airborne was and always 
will be airborne for as long as they live and long after they die.  I respcet the airborne soldiers that i meet more then most officers I know.  The airborne still exists in pride and spirit of the CF,  how times have you heard someone say "Yeah well my Sarge is Ex- Airborne so Ha!!".  Their still here just not in unit structure.  For the best **** exhibit on the airborne go to the Petawawa musuem and take a look, it brings taht ache to your heart feeling and theres a monument there that will send chills down your spine.

As for voting for the alliance in just to get more money to the CF and getting the airborne back, F*** that the alliance are also bigoted racist and homophobic, they want to strip the rights of native americans who deserve every single one, use catholisim in the government as well as reinsert it in public schools and close the borders to immigrantion almost compleltey except those rich enough to donate.  They want to defently get rid of homosexual marriage. It aint worth protecting a country like that with my blood.

Thats my 2 cents  time to go back to work.


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## deathwing5 (11 Jul 2003)

I was watching a show on the airborne and they were talking about how they gave the para guys some drugs so they wouldnt get a virus transmited by some bug.  It has side effects like making them more agressive, and that was one of the reasons why they tortured and killed the kid. Is this true?


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## Pte Lickers (11 Jul 2003)

Might be. 
The innoculation for malaria is known to cause anger and mood swings that could be violent.  My old man had to take them to go work in Costa Rica and he wasnt pleasant to be around after the shot.


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## 30 for 30 (11 Jul 2003)

I think the most valid beef with the disbandment issue is that the Airborne cleaned themselves up after Somalia and showed their professionalism in a number of ways, yet they were shut down anyway for absurd political reasons. The hazing videos that were released a while after Somalia were years old and Crouton basically dropped the axe to appease the media, not to mention the fact that he simply didn‘t and doesn‘t give a **** about the Canadian Forces.


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## McG (13 Jul 2003)

For those who are interested in the Airborne debate, have a look at these threads:

Resurrect the Airborne Regiment? Yes/No?! 
Do you guys think the Airborne Regiment will ever be brought back?  
Resurrect the Airborne Regiment, Possible??  
Airborne Engineers 
Paratroopers


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## Doug VT (14 Jul 2003)

They tortured him to death(THOSE INDV RESP) but they did not "display him as a trophy"  They took some very inappropriate pictures, but then again, the whole incident was inappropriate.

The drug that the Airborne Regiment used was Lariam.  Also known as Mefloquine.  Possible side effects include- nausea, vomiting, dizziness, light headedness or loss of balance, headache, sleepiness, inability to sleep, ABNORMAL DREAMS, loose stools or diarrhea, and abdominal pain.  In rarer cases- loss of appetite, abnormal heart beat, itching of the skin or skin rash, hair loss, eyesight problems, muscle pains, convulsions, and DISTURBANCES OF MOOD(depressed mood, mental confusion, anxiety states)may occur.

The drug comes in tablets, in a box of 8 sealed in 2 - 4 tablet blister-packs.  It is taken once a week.  You start the drug one week before you leave and continue taking it four weeks after you leave.
The AB Regt took the drug on "Nightmare Wednesday"
It may have played a factor in the incident, however we will never really know. The drug is still used by the CF and will be used in the upcoming operation to Afghanistan, as I‘m sure it was used by 3VP on their tour.  
Lariam is the CF‘s drug of choice however there are two other drugs that are available should you come to find that Mefloquine isn‘t good for you.  The other drugs aren‘t as convenient, you have to take them every day vice once a week. 

I start taking Lariam tomorrow since Monday is the day of the week that Op Athena wants to have it‘s nightmares!

I‘ll keep everyone posted on my wonderful side effects...

Airborne...


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## Duotone81 (14 Jul 2003)

This is an excellent site with tons of pics and info on the regiment and their disbandment. Very good reading. It‘s actually owned by a former member of the regiment.

www.commando.org


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## gate_guard (15 Jul 2003)

In my opinion, the status of airborne capability in the CF is severely lacking. As I stated in another thread, the army needs another CAR like QRF. Do I foresee the Liberal gov‘t approving the reinstatement of the CAR? ****  no. Not for monetary reasons because we all know that the Liberals won‘t let such a petty thing as wasting public funds get in the way of implementing their policy. But, there‘s no way they are going to admit they were wrong in disbanding it by bringing it back. If such an anomaly were to occur, you best believe that it won‘t be called the CAR.


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## Cycophant (15 Jul 2003)

That‘s very true about the current Liberal government.  However, I feel there is a miniscule amount of hope with the expected win of Paul Martin.  If nothing else, I can see him enstating such things simply to spite Chretien   

Plus, our new Defense Minister appears to have a firm desire to improve things.  Whether or not he gets replaced, or gets help from the Federal Government though, is another story, as you said.


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## hijack (17 Jul 2003)

They are coming back, with a different name most likely , but hopefully with the same professional expertise. "In every barrel there are a few bad apples", which need to be weeded-out.


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## mht (17 Jul 2003)

"Canadian Parachute Regiment" perhaps?


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## blackhat56 (17 Jul 2003)

this reminds me of after they disbanded the Queen‘s own, Black watch, Cdn guards and the Fort Gary horse, every body was climbing on their high horses to bring back these reg regts, but to no avail, sure they live on as reserve units but alack thats all.
and all you have to remember is that no matter what you feel about the government of the day, they are the bosses and call the shots, and polies like to play games and back the flavor of the month, sure the alliance is calling for the CAR to come back but hey just watch, something new will catch their eye and that will be it eh


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## BradT (20 Jul 2003)

It is in the Canadian Alliance White Paper Defence plan to bring back the airborne, and to that they may not keep their promise, from the CA MP‘s i‘ve seen, the promise they might not keep is they may spend more money on the military then they say they will, they seem to be pretty hardcore on military spendings, which would be great.


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## BradT (20 Jul 2003)

http://www.canadianalliance.ca/pdf/StrongAndFree.pdf 

If anyone is interested in the Canadian Alliance Defence plan.


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## nULL (20 Jul 2003)

...at what cost? 


Ever wonder why the Canadian Alliance will NEVER get into power?


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## Marauder (20 Jul 2003)

Uhhhh, because the Liberals pander to the lowest common denominator and indulge in good old fashioned fearmongering? (Like papa Johnny‘s missive about having to take money from health care spending to pay for a military than is actually healthy viable in the long term).


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## mht (20 Jul 2003)

Just about every party, party member and politician pander to the lowest common denonminator. Politics is a shady game my friends. 

Maybe Minister of Defence should be a civil service/advisory position? Staffed by a ret‘d CF member with NO political affiliation? Perhaps that might help keep the politics out the way.

Could you take the Jump companies of the PPCLI, RCR and Vandoos and create a Parachute Battalion? Of course, it probably won‘t be called Airborne, but why not the Canadian Parachute Battalion? That can‘t possibly offend anyone, or dig up "painful" memories.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jul 2003)

When im at work and the conversation drifts to the airborne regiment i usually turn some heads by saying "just let the f**king regiment rest in peace".
I think in almost every case i‘ve spoken to a reservest or cadet jumper about the subject they‘ve somehow spoke more about the airborne regiment and seem to be more pissed off and heart broken then the actual ex CAR guys i‘ve worked with. To me the reg force guys approach the subject with a quiet pride, others seem to hold the idea like some kind of valhala or promised land.
The airborne regiment is gone, bringing them back is like us getting the gold medal for figure skating after france or whoever got it. It‘s like adding insult to injury. I do however think we would do well to raise a parachute regiment or even battalion. If anything just to get some more reg force infantry and lighten the load re nato/un tours.


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## GrahamD (26 Jul 2003)

I read a bunch of this thread but not all of it, so i don‘t know if these points were made.

 To my knowledge(based on an investigational news program), the Somalia incident was only part of the reason for the disbanding of the regiment.  They did assess blame in the incident to a specific number of the troops (I think it was 3, buts thats like a 50-50 guess)  However the investigational program I recently watched had a number of the troops who were there claiming it was mainly 1 induvidual who commited the worst of the acts, and he was of questionable nature to begin with.  I also heard that he ended up taking his own life during the course of the investigation.
  Beyond this incident I heard that there were rampant behavioural problems, and that the hazing rituals were nearly out of control.  I remember seeing pictures of the hazing on the news at the time that they were actually disbanded.

Before anyone goes crazy flaming me if I have made an incorrect point, this is just info I have been fed via the CBC.  And personaly I think it‘s really lame that the regiment was disbanded, I wish it wasn‘t so (I think most Canadians felt a sense of pride when the Airborne was mentioned).  It‘s a goal and an honour that would motivate many induviduals in ways that other trades can‘t neccesarily do.


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## GrahamD (26 Jul 2003)

I just read the post above my own, and I agree with the formation of a parachute regiment, that would be awesome.  If I get on any course in the military I want to get on a jump course.

  When I‘ve read through the possible specialty courses for infantry at the recruiting center, the one that really motivates me is "Freefall Jumpmaster".
  I suspect this would be an extremely competetive position, but someone has to do it, and I want it to be me. So hopefully if/when the time comes to get serious about competing for this job, I would have my civilian rating, and some experience behind me.


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## Jungle (27 Jul 2003)

Ghost778 said:  





> When im at work and the conversation drifts to the airborne regiment i usually turn some heads by saying "just let the f**king regiment rest in peace".


I noticed from your previous posts that you seem to have something against the CAR. You wanna talk about it, fine... but "the f@#*ing regiment" is crossing a line, you did not earn the right to talk like that.
You think reactivating the CAR would be "adding insult to injury", I don‘t think so. It would be repairing a big mistake, and recognizing the hard work and sacrifices of the Men who served in it. According to your logic, if the Army was to activate a new RegF Brigade, the Infantry Regt couldn‘t be called "The Black Watch" or "The Queen‘s Own Rifles". We would have to invent a new Regt to ensure we don‘t "add insult to injury" after those Regts were taken off the RegF order of battle...
You‘re taking this PC crap to a new level.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Jul 2003)

Lemme try and clairify that, maybe adding insult to injury came across in the wrong way.

I don‘t have anything against the CAR at all. I remember as a kid picking up a book, i think it was esprit de corps or maybe some other military magazine. On the cover it had a soldier wearing green combat pants and a maroon t-shirt sitting on a bed packing a barracks box holding a browning 9mm. It was talking about the Airborne regiment getting ready to deply to somalia. (think i still have it lying around somewhere too) I read it, became interested and asked my uncle who was military about the airborne. Had a jump course but never worked in the car. Anyways long story short i became interested in the army and 4 or 5 years later i went down to the local armories and signed up.  I don‘t know much about the car at all thats why i try to not comment on the subject. What really bothers me is people who have NO idea about the regiment talking about it, ad nasium. Airborne this airborne that, oh god we need the regiment back %&$(ing liberals, thats what we need to save the army. These guys have no clue about the regiment save for what they read or hear from guys who were in it( and among those guys i find they don‘t talk about it very much) It would be like me talking about how $hity it was having to walk across europe in ww2. It wasn‘t my time, i dont have much right to talk about it.
WHen i say ****ing regiment i mean it like ‘for ***k sakes, leave them alone‘. Nothing negitive towards the car.

I honestly think calling it the airborne regment (or the new airborne regiment etc..) would be a bad idea. Right from the start there would be an overshadow on it. "Will history repeat itself, will the same mistakes be made" bla bla. The media would turn it into a field day. Also, would the guys from the CAR even want it to be called the airborne regiment again? I‘d imagine some would while, given the condition of the new army, some would be really pissed off.  Thats why i think it‘s better to start with a new unit. Of course this is from someone who wasn‘t in the airborne regiment.
Maybe if the goverment would admit that they screwed up in disbanning it and decided to reinstate the airborne regiment and do everything possible to stop the media from blowing it out of perportion we could ressurect the regiment and pay proper tribute to those that deserve it. Hope that clairifies what i was trying to argue a bit. ‘***king‘ was just used to express my dismay at some peoples attitudes towards the car, not them in general.

Either way anyone looks at it, irregardless the cost of it, we need more regiments, especially one of atleast battalion size.  I know we have 3 jump companies but i don‘t think they have much time working with each other and if we ever needed to use all 3 at once it would be chaos. I have a feeling in the near future were going to get called upon to do more peacekeeping/making missions wether we have the equipment or not and the US won‘t be interested in excuses.


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## The_Falcon (4 Aug 2003)

The point of bringing back the "Canadian Airborne Regiment" is moot. Once a unit is "disbanded" they are gone forever, no other unit can take the name, or cap badge of that unit again. The RegF Queens Own, Black Watch etc., were not "disbanded" merely they were reduced to "nill strength" and/or "amalgamted" with other units and and all serving members were sent to or were absorbed by other units. So technically those units still exist on paper (those that didn‘t have reserve battallions ie Queens Own). There was an article in the maple leaf about 1-2 years describing this.  You can look it up online if you choose to. Maybe 2nd Canadian Parachute Regiment?


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## Jungle (4 Aug 2003)

> The point of bringing back the "Canadian Airborne Regiment" is moot. Once a unit is "disbanded" they are gone forever, no other unit can take the name, or cap badge of that unit again.


Would you mind giving us references to this ? BTW, 1st Can Para was a Battalion, not a Regt. So the proper appelletion would be: 2nd CDN Parachute Battalion. But then again, the 2nd Can Para existed for a while, and became the base of the CDN component of the 1st SSF. If anything is moot, it is someone coming on here flapping their gums without doing proper research.


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## The_Falcon (5 Aug 2003)

One I forgot there was a 2nd Para, two the article was the Maple Leaf about a year or two ago, no I don‘t remember which issue, I can currently searching all the issue myself cause the DND search engine sucks. When I find the article I will post a link.


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## Danjanou (5 Aug 2003)

Sorry, Falcon, but there are precedents for reinstating "disbanded" regiments.

During the 18th and 19th centuries the Royal Newfoundland Regiment then part of the British Army was disbanded several times. For the most part this was at the end of hostilities, although once it was for "Fenian sympathies" as basically the whole Bn it appeared was full of Irish rebels (big surprise considering it was recruited from a colony full of Irish settlers).

The last time it was disbanded and it‘s colours laid up was at the end of WWI. It was then reconstituted again in 1949.

Basically if the Government or the higher ups are using this as their reason to say no to the CAR, then once again their full of it.


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## Michael Dorosh (5 Aug 2003)

"2nd Canadian Parachute Regiment" was already used, during World War Two.  It was the official name of the Canadian contingent, 1st Special Service Force.

Danjanou is correct, there have been other "disbanded" regiments resurrected, and there is nothing written in stone about it.  It‘s not like God descends from the heavens to create and disband regiments, it is mortal beings in Parliament and NDHQ who do these things, and any thing they do, can be undone.


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## Jungle (5 Aug 2003)

> "2nd Canadian Parachute Regiment" was already used, during World War Two. It was the official name of the Canadian contingent, 1st Special Service Force.


Again Michael, it was a Battalion, not a Regt. The 2 Can Para Batts were never organised into a Regt structure, and they were part of different formations with different roles:
 - 1st Can Para: 6th British Airborne Division
 - 2nd Can Para: 1st Special Service Force


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## The_Falcon (5 Aug 2003)

found the article in the maple leaf
 http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/html_files/html_view_e.asp?page=Vol4_28____Entrenous14-15,  and I was wrong about the Queens Own and Black Watch Reg Force Battalions, they were disbanded, they left their orignal reserve battalions in place


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## Michael Dorosh (6 Aug 2003)

Feh.

Typo.

Quite aware of 2 Can Para  *Bn* 

Must sleep.


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