# NATO apologizes after U.S. soldier opens fire on Afghan civilians



## Kalatzi

Mods: If this is a duplicate please accept my apologies and delete.

Reproduced under the fair use provision of the copyright act.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/nato-apologizes-after-us-soldier-opens-fire-on-afghan-civilians/article2365781/page1/

It seems unclear whether the individual is in custody, and if so, whose. 

A sad, sad day, for everyone.


----------



## PuckChaser

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> It seems unclear whether the individual is in custody, and if so, whose.



Did you even read the article? About half way down it said a US service member was in detention at a NATO base as the alleged shooter.


----------



## Kalatzi

Thanks for the clarification. 

CNN reporting that violence is widening. Additional casualities result, including 6 American troops. 

Best wishes to the victims, and all in authority, for best possible outcomes.


----------



## Kalatzi

Last post was another misread on my part. I'm certiaqnly not helping. Am off thread.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> Last post was another misread on my part. I'm certiaqnly not helping. Am off thread.



Still can't bother using the spellcheck, I see.

Milnet.ca


----------



## Delaney1986

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/11/afghanistan-nato-shooting.html

Just another article, there's a video as well.

So sad.


----------



## dogger1936

How does a soldier just up and leave camp at night without being spotted?
If I was camp SSM I would be checking my security.

What a sick sick act. I know it would never happen but honestly the best way to deal with this would be our soldiers bringing this guys beaten body down and dropping him off to the families in Panjuai. 

Who the hell kills women and children on purpose (with out cause).


----------



## aesop081

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Who the hell kills women and children on purpose (with out cause).



The Taliban ?

A-Quaeda ?

Serbs, Croats..........


----------



## dogger1936

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The Taliban ?
> 
> A-Quaeda ?
> 
> Serbs, Croats..........



(I mean on our side  ;D)


----------



## The Bread Guy

What Canada's Defence Minister had to say:





> .... “The good work of our men and women in uniform, as well as the work of many fearless Canadian civilians, continues to bridge what Afghanistan is and what Afghanistan can be,” MacKay said. “That work will not be deterred by a random and cowardly act of violence.” ....


Postmedia News, 11 Mar 12


----------



## medicineman

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> (I mean on our side  ;D)



The Croats are on our side there...just saying.

Back on tangent - people do just snap at home, go (US) Postal at their office, school, etc...why wouldn't over there be any different, especially given the levels of stress some people are under, it can certainly ramp up the process of a breakdown.  Be interested to see motivation - was the troop truely nuts, was the troop a sleeper, was it a TB dressed as a NATO soldier, etc.

MM


----------



## aesop081

medicineman said:
			
		

> was it a TB dressed as a NATO soldier, etc.



There you go:

http://www.heraldonline.com/2012/03/11/3810905/ap-source-afghanistan-killer-from.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> (I mean on our side  ;D)



Many here may be too young to remember My Lai - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre


----------



## GAP

recceguy said:
			
		

> Many here may be too young to remember My Lai - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre



However it affected the antiwar movement, etc.....I have no clue. What I do know was the effect on the serving members in-country at that time. We were disgusted. You do a lot of things in the name of conflict, but never that.


----------



## Teeps74

Many failures associated with this.  How the hell did he get out alone?  If he snapped, was no one watching him?  Was his immediate C2 now aware of his well being?  If he did not snap, how did a psychopath deploy to begin with?

We are a team. As a Snr NCM, a WO, I have responsibilities to my subordinates, all of my subordinates. Amongst those, is trying to ensure my troops are of sound mind.

This is a truly horrific scenario.  Innocent lives lost and an American soldier's life completely ruined now.  There will likely be reprisals, badal.  Locals will turn to the local TB.

What this "soldier" did, will be felt for a very long time there...

For the civilians murdered. Rest in peace. I pray that in your next life, you experience the peace you did not in this life.


----------



## medicineman

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> There you go:
> 
> http://www.heraldonline.com/2012/03/11/3810905/ap-source-afghanistan-killer-from.html



Well, so much for my disguise theory...

Teeps - people are good at hiding some things, especially if they're planning something like this...even the loons.  I guess we'll have to wait for the investigation to finish to find out his motivation.

MM


----------



## PuckChaser

recceguy said:
			
		

> Many here may be too young to remember My Lai - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre



Though I can see the media making the parallel, this was the act of one soldier, not the actions of an entire company and its leadership.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Though I can see the media making the parallel, this was the act of one soldier, not the actions of an entire company and its leadership.



I was simply answering a question. Not drawing any conclusion.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

For the sake of the mission a public hanging of the individual in Afghanistan would help. the nuances of the US justice system will be lost on the average Afghan. The fact that the Taliban are not shy about inflicting the same terror on students and other innocents will not be mentioned by either the Afghans or the western media.

This guy was from FT Lewis, as I recall many discipline problems have come from that base.


----------



## brihard

A classic 'active shooter', but in the context of a war... It will remain to be determined whether this individual had specific intent and deliberation, or if he simply woke up one morning cuckoo for cocoa puffs and saw a quick way home through the death of people long since dehumanized.

Not sure there is a wartime precedent for this... Shades of My Lai or Haditha, but this scum has no combat situation real or contrived to lay the blame on. Since he lacked the decency to leave his brains on the village street, we're now stuck with what will surely be an infamous mass murder trial. I hope for the integrity of our profession that he does not receive the leniency afforded Lt Calley or Sgt Wuterich.


----------



## Journeyman

Colin P said:
			
		

> This guy was from FT Lewis, as I recall many discipline problems have come from that base.


Wow; that's a pretty broad brush.

I Corps' presence in Ft Lewis consists of:


> 2d Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division
> 3d Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division
> 4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division
> 17th Fires Brigade
> 16th Combat Aviation Brigade
> 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne)
> 2nd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment
> 4th Battalion, 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne)
> 62nd Medical Brigade
> 201st Battlefield Surveillance Brigade
> 555th Engineer Brigade
> 593rd Sustainment Brigade
> 42d Military Police Brigade
> Henry H. Lind Noncommissioned Officer Academy
> 66th Theater Aviation Command
> 404th Army Field Support Brigade
> Eighth Brigade, U.S. Army Cadet Command (ROTC)
> 191st Infantry Brigade
> Headquarters, 6th Military Police Group (CID)
> Washington Regional Flight Center
> Western Regional Medical Command
> Public Health Command Region-West
> The KIM Dental Activity
> The Veterinary Treatment Facility


...or, effectively, the entire Canadian Army. 

"You're in the Army? I've heard they've had discipline problems."


----------



## jollyjacktar

Colin P said:
			
		

> For the sake of the mission a public hanging of the individual in Afghanistan would help. the nuances of the US justice system will be lost on the average Afghan. The fact that the Taliban are not shy about inflicting the same terror on students and other innocents will not be mentioned by either the Afghans or the western media.


Sad to say, but I believe you are right.  I tried to explain to my workers how on the whole our legal and justice system is pretty fair, the police are not corrupt and incompetent etc.  They did not really buy it as they have no experience in that regard.  So in this case, I don't believe the average Afghan would be happy with anything less than a speedy trial and swift hanging.  It won't of course go that route.  I wonder how many revenge killings will come of this.  Not a good Spring so far for progress on winning the hearts and minds.


----------



## aesop081

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Not a good Spring so far for progress on winning the hearts and minds.



At what point do we just say "f**k their hearts and minds" and just leave ?


----------



## The Bread Guy

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> At what point do we just say "f**k their hearts and minds" and just leave ?


In Canada's case, for now, anyway , 2014


----------



## jollyjacktar

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> At what point do we just say "f**k their hearts and minds" and just leave ?


There comes a time, when just like an older car it starts to nickle and dime you to death and you just know.  Or as Kenny Rodgers sang in "The Gambler - you have to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away, know when to run".  Personally, I don't see long term success there anymore.  The Taliban will come home, either by force or treaty and will take over the place again like a cancer.  Maybe we never had a chance at winning their hearts and minds to begin with.  History will judge.


----------



## Remius

Colin P said:
			
		

> For the sake of the mission a public hanging of the individual in Afghanistan would help. the nuances of the US justice system will be lost on the average Afghan. The fact that the Taliban are not shy about inflicting the same terror on students and other innocents will not be mentioned by either the Afghans or the western media.



Yep.  Somebody said it before but yeah, nothing short of that will appease anyone.  Not going to happen. though.  This will be one of those defining moments mistakenly marking the beginning of the end.


----------



## Kalatzi

I found this article. I don't know what you think of Carl Prine, but I feel this is  a good article. 

Reproduced under the fair use provision of the copyright act. 

The Dead of Pangwai

By Carl Prine Monday, March 12th, 2012 9:06 am
 Posted in On Media, On War


Read more: http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/12/the-dead-of-pangwai/#ixzz1ovWgiLzL

Reports from Kandahar’s Pangwai district are sketchy and often contradictory, but it appears apparent from both Afghan government and ISAF declarations that at least one U.S. soldier has murdered in cold blood more than a dozen villagers near an American military outpost.

At least nine of the victims were children.  The gunman has been described in the various western media as a non-commissioned officer, either a sergeant or staff sergeant.  Reports have said that he surrendered to authorities after allegedly committing what only can be considered a war crime.

Villagers have said that in one of the homes, he stacked the bodies, including those of toddlers, and set them ablaze.  Neighbors extinguished the fire and reporters have counted 16 bodies there punctured with bullets.  Our surgeons shall continue to treat the survivors, several of whom might die in the coming days or weeks, prolonging the crisis with each obituary broadcast by Afghan media or the Taliban.




The massacre follows the accidental killing by NATO gunships of four Afghan civilians in Kapisa Province during operations against the Taliban.  And news of the murders arrives in the wake of nationwide demonstrations because U.S. soldiers burned copies of the Qur’an that had been confiscated from prisoners accused of using the holy books to pass messages.

In the American mass media, discussion of these tragedies has been dominated by questions of 1) whether they shall speed the exit of U.S. ground forces; 2) what the events mean to relations with the Hamid Karzai regime in Kabul as we put the final touches on a long-term security pact; 3) the short-term implications for U.S. troops as demonstrations like those in the wake of the Kapisa killings flare nationwide; and, 4) the political fallout in the U.S. as the GOP nomination grinds on and President Barack Obama prepares for his reelection campaign.

Let me fire up the speculation machine and try to answer the questions in turn.



1.  The Panjwai massacre is unlikely to quicken the pace of the U.S. drawdown.

While Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta has flirted with a 2013 exit, ISAF seems committed to leaving in large numbers in 2014 when Afghan National Security Forces are predicted to be ready to take on increasing responsibilities for the fight against the various Taliban militias.

Depending on how one conjures these numbers in the dark art of predicting kandak competency, we might say that perhaps after more than a decade of war and tens of billions of dollars in expenditures, about 30 Afghan army battalions can operate largely on their own, even if they can’t really supply themselves with materiel.

The rest of the force is prone to drug addiction and desertion and we won’t discuss the National Police at all because it’s too depressing.

Suffice it to say that our lofty goals have conspired with Afghan perfidy and incompetence to produce a security force that’s unreliable and unlikely to take the field soon to defend their own people.

So we’re stuck with the training mission until they are ready, and the latest allegation of NATO war crimes isn’t going to change that.

Hell, the U.S. Army left 170 Vietnamese peasants in a My Lai ditch in 1968 (see photo) and our last combat battalion didn’t leave until four years later.

2.  Nothing changes with the Karzai kleptocracy.

Karzai, his corrupt and incompetent functionaries and the illiterate warlords backing them shall bemoan the latest round of bad news, but so what?  They also detest the night raids run by U.S. units to kill and capture Taliban and we’re not going to stop those, are we?

Karzai’s flunkies and their muscle are addicted to western money because it makes them – and not the half of all adult males there currently unemployed – rich; just as they’re hooked on our military might because it keeps them from having to fight the Taliban.

We’re Karzai’s crutch and our sergeants could commit a thousand war crimes and the regime would still have to lean on us or fall.  Just as we’re still stuck on the advisory mission with the ANSF, so Karzai’s kleptocracy is shackled to ISAF.   And we can’t end the hated night raids because a resurgent Taliban slobber-slapping the ANSF around might prevent us from leaving.

Yes, our ongoing support without any tittle of concern for Afghan or Pakistani perceptions makes Karzai appear to be a weak, feckless, corrupt puppet screeching meaningless homilies about Kapisa and Panjwai and the desecration of Qur’ans and yada yada yada.

Yes, our lawmakers grumble that Karzai stole an election and seems to be scheming to remain in power beyond his term, picking our pockets until NATO is penniless.

It changes nothing.  We’re stuck with each other in our own uniquely dysfunctional co-dependent relationship and there’s no diplomatic version of Dr Phil to talk us away from each other.



3.  We likely shall see the Taliban and other anti-government forces escalate the demonstrations because they’re a handy tool used to discredit the Karzai regime and the US-led coalition.

There likely will be spontaneous protests in many parts of the nation, including the  Kandahar we’ve screwed down by massing troops there, but those won’t be the interesting ones.

I’ll pay more attention to those that appear to be orchestrated by the cadre of the various Taliban networks in the rest of the country, including Kabul.  I suspect that these likely will be led by the one militia with a uniquely honed ability to wield violence and protest theatrically to psychologically addle the government elites and the urban masses.

Which is to say, the Haqqanis.

Expect a few SBVIEDs here and couple of protests  there – before the cameras, of course – because that’s what the Haqqanis do and they’ve been rehearsing this sort of thing for three decades.  Or, as I put it previously, they “articulate symbolically the larger discontent against the U.S.-led coalition and our proxy government in Kabul and we should expect to see the gyres of civil disobedience, symbolic terror and propaganda swirling into a vortex of  Afghan anger.”

Along with the Haqqanis’ blood-dripped dramaturgy,  the coming spring offensive by the Quetta Shura Taliban might help those sorts of tornados form into a larger, more unruly storm of Afghan discontent.  Sort of a monsoon season of anti-occupation symbolic terror and protest.

But like all inclement weather,these patterns of violence and demonstration come and go.  Just as thunderheads and their lightning can’t dislodge the mountain, so the Pashtun-dominated and Pakistani-abetted militias can’t evict the U.S. or our proxy Karzai from Kabul.

Just so, the mountains can’t stop the rain from falling, even as it erodes their peaks and scarps.  The worst weather blows over, this they know.

And so the war continues.



4.  The latest atrocity, as the larger war itself, means nothing to the American people and won’t affect either the primary or the general election.

 Yes, the American people, like our European friends, have grown to hate this war.  They’ve long lost any faith in the cant vomited from the mouths of politicos or the generals about the likely end state for Afghanistan, a nation our voters care no more about than they do Lilliputia or Utopia.

It’s the latter that our more dissembling generals and spies apparently believe is obtainable through the current oplans.

If we were a serious nation that concerned itself with battle and those who we send to wage it, we likely would find some fault with the commander in chief, Obama, for a failed strategy.  If we were grownups who elected competent lawmakers more concerned about our democracy than the vanity of their corporate sponsors, we might even obtain a Congress willing to hold hearings about a lost decade of warmaking and enact statutes to fix that sort of thing.

Surely they might at least go through the motions in some grudging bureaucratic honor to our dead, right?

But we’re not that sort of people and the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression has left us despondently inarticulate about such matters.  Unless you’re Newt Gingrich, a man never lost for words.

Gingrich seems to have pivoted in recent weeks away from his heady optimism about our Afghan misadventure, saying our strategy in Kabul is now “undoable.”  

This might be a wise move on Gingrich’s part.  As a former Speaker of the House, his departure from Congress long predates our surge in Afghanistan so he doesn’t have to own it as Obama would.  Nor is Newt as slack-jawed stupid on foreign policy issues as Rick Santorum, so he can approach the subject with some nuance (missing, one might add, from his bellicose Iran pronouncements).

But no one believes either Gingrich or Santorum will take on Obama in the fall.   And should he be elected, glum frontrunner Willard Romney likely shall confect an Afghanistan policy similar to the president’s, even if he now suggests otherwise.

The general election will come down to jobs, the economy and whatever pointless diversion political beat reporters can trip over (Mitt has a new haircut that’s not presidential!  Obama forgot the first name of his Secretary of Transportation during a stop in Cleveland! ), not generals.

So, what should come of all this?
 Well, ultimately this tragedy matters most to the Afghan people who suffered the worst of it and our military, which must see if it can harvest some lessons from Kandahar’s killing fields.

I can think of no war that lacked atrocities. But our military is drawn from the well of free peoples, and the hallmark of a democratic society should be our willingness to account for moral failure.

We also should study ourselves, to see if the latest war crime is a systemic problem   or rather – as some are quite quick to say – that it was all the work of a sociopath on a rogue thrill kill spree.

Regardless, the inquiry should be transparent and the final reports on the slaughter shared widely with the democracy that must sustain an Army that reflects us.

Too often over the past two administrations this hasn’t been the case.  We’ve buried the skeletons of our mistakes, even the murders — often sooner than the families buried their dead – leaving whistleblowers seared by the memories of what was done before their eyes.   They whisper what they witnessed later  to a democracy that doesn’t care. 

This, mind you, often after a military bureaucracy has waged a reprisal campaign against the honest who turned in the killers. 

This time, let’s not do that.   In the wake of the slaughter in Pangwai, let’s pray that the last death isn’t of the truth.


Read more: http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/12/the-dead-of-pangwai/#ixzz1ovVI9LZf


----------



## jollyjacktar

Crantor said:
			
		

> Yep.  Somebody said it before but yeah, nothing short of that will appease anyone.  Not going to happen. though.  This will be one of those defining moments mistakenly marking the beginning of the end.


FTFY


----------



## GAP

Fisher: U.S. soldier shooting rampage occurred in one of Canada's model villages
 By Matthew Fisher, Postmedia News March 11, 2012
Article Link

MOSCOW — The community of Belanday, where a rogue American army sergeant reportedly began a murderous spree Sunday, killing 16 Afghans including several little girls, was one of Canada’s model villages in Kandahar where Canadian and later American troops lived in small groups in proximity to the local population and invested tens of thousands of hours between 2009 and 2011 to win their confidence.

“If it happened there, this will be shocking to the people of Belanday, as you can imagine, but I think that they can recover. One bad actor cannot spoil the reputation of the whole. I believe that to be true,” said Maj.-Gen. Jon Vance, whose idea it was three years ago to create model villages where troops interacted closely with the locals.

The community was chosen as a model village by Vance in the fall of 2009 as part of a project that had begun nearby in April 2009. It was copied across southern Afghanistan after NATO’s top Afghan generals, Stanley McChrystal and David Petraeus saw firsthand what Canada had achieved there.

Reports from the scene were confusing and contradictory Sunday with some indicating the shooting by a lone U.S. soldier had begun in Belanday before spreading to two other villages to the north in Panjwaii District. The entire region was part of Canada’s area of military operations until the Harper government withdrew its combat forces last summer. It lies in the middle of a hardscrabble desert about 20 kilometres from Kandahar City.

“It was an interesting place,” Vance, who commanded Canadian combat forces in Afghanistan in 2009 and again for five months in 2010, recalled in an interview on Sunday. “It was a definite transit point for Taliban on their way to Kandahar City.

“We went there with two objectives. We no longer wanted it to be a transit point for the enemy and we wanted to directly engage the local population.”

The arc to the west and southwest of Kandahar City that Canadian troops first entered in the spring of 2006 was one of the most dangerous in southern Afghanistan until Canadian forces, with U.S. assistance, began to have sufficient forces to establish model villages there in 2009.

When I was in the area several times last year where Sunday’s shootings occurred, I witnessed Canadian and American soldiers going on long joint foot patrols, patiently making friends with local children in the narrow warren of streets. Through such encounters International Security Assistance Force troops got to know their parents, or, at least, their fathers a bit. It was an approach which eventually paid big dividends but that may be reversed after Sunday’s tragic event.

“By the time all Canadian forces had left it was quiet because it had become a toxic environment for the Taliban,” Vance said.
More on link


----------



## Remius

JJ: I think the begining of the end has already started and started well before this.  Just that people will use this as the watershed mark.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Crantor said:
			
		

> JJ: I think the begining of the end has already started and started well before this.  Just that people will use this as the watershed mark.


Yes, I see you point and agree with you.

Belanday.  I was nearby in Deh-e-Bagh when I was OTW.  All that good work in Belanday and area, ruined.  

I was there the day this was filed.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVu1bx9MFYQ


----------



## Pieman

> I was there the day this was filed.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVu1bx9MFYQ


Ah Good old Dog-E-Bag. Funny, I was there that day too. Vance was super excited about what was going on there, it was his idea and he was really pushing it. Things really took a turn in a different direction once our American buddies took control of a certain FOB I was on. Much more 'pro-active' than Canadians.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Wow; that's a pretty broad brush.
> 
> I Corps' presence in Ft Lewis consists of:...or, effectively, the entire Canadian Army.
> 
> "You're in the Army? I've heard they've had discipline problems."



http://www.king5.com/news/local/Lewis-McChord-most-troubled-base-in-military--112680799.html

_Nearly 130 gang and extremist group members have been identified on the Fort Lewis, Washington, Army Installation since 2005. These gang members are believed to be responsible for many of the criminal misconduct instances reported on base. _ 
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/gangs.htm

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/11/army-report-blames-lapses-on-stryker-commander-112711w/

I have heard other stuff about the issues there, most of it seems to point to the leadership of a number of units as the reason problems were left unchecked and allowed to get out of hand.


----------



## Kalatzi

Some may not care for the writer's sarcasm in my last post. 

RecceGuy madde reference to My-Lai. Many will not have heard of it. 

I think that the following article makes some thoughtful points. 

Reproduced under the fair use provision of the copyright act. 

America's self-defeating cycle in Afghanistan 


By Jeremi Suri, Special to CNN

Editor's note: Jeremi Suri holds the Mack Brown Distinguished Chair for Leadership in Global Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin. He is a professor of history and public affairs and a Distinguished Fellow at the Strauss Center for International Security and Law. Suri is the author of numerous books, most recently "Liberty's Surest Guardian: American Nation-Building from the Founders to Obama."

Austin, Texas (CNN) -- The past month has been the worst for the United States in Afghanistan since the war began after the attacks of September 11, 2001.

There have been more difficult periods of combat against the Taliban, al Qaeda and other insurgents. There have been more fragmented and confused moments in allied strategy. There has, however, never been a time when American soldiers acted with such obvious and offensive disrespect for Afghan citizens.

The past month has witnessed a string of incidents, including the alleged killing of 16 civilians by a U.S. soldier and the burning of Qurans, the holiest touchstone of the Islamic faith, at a NATO air base. The United States has crossed a self-defeating threshold in Afghanistan where our soldiers are seen as attacking the very people and culture they are deployed to protect. We are destroying villages in order to save them.

We have witnessed this dynamic before. In early 1968, it became apparent that American soldiers in South Vietnam were fighting a stubborn communist enemy without the support they expected from South Vietnamese citizens. To the contrary, residents of South Vietnam frequently gave assistance to the insurgents killing Americans.

Frustrated and desperate, particularly after the Tet Offensive in January 1968, American soldiers took the war to the population with devastating consequences. Counterinsurgency warfare meant burning rural villages, bombing crowded areas and killing innocent civilians. The My Lai massacre of March 16, 1968, was the most notorious example, but it was not unique. After failing to catch insurgents who fled the village, angry American soldiers killed more than 300 women, children and elderly residents in cold blood. The United States was massacring the same South Vietnamese it was fighting to save.

We do not know what motivated the American soldier who is accused of going house-to-house, murdering Afghan families, on Sunday.


Based on the patterns of the past month, the question arises: Was he acting in ways that echo My Lai?

The U.S. military might be the strongest fighting force in the world, but it is still a collection of emotional and fragile human beings who react to the circumstances, pressures and incentives around them.

As in Southeast Asia more than 40 years ago, the American soldiers in Afghanistan are fighting a war against an elusive enemy amidst a population that is increasingly resistant to American demands for assistance. Afghan citizens know that the United States is planning to leave soon, and they sense that the Americans they meet care more about an "exit strategy" than the welfare of their society. Afghan intransigence furthers the frustration and resentment among American soldiers, fueling violent behavior directed at innocent civilians.

This self-defeating cycle reflects specific policies. President Barack Obama has acknowledged the corrupt Afghan leadership of Hamid Karzai, but he is doing nothing serious about it.

The U.S. government has told its more than 80,000 troops in Afghanistan that they must help create a stable and secure Afghan nation, despite rampant corruption, in less than a year. Young American soldiers are under enormous pressure, in hostile circumstances, and they are increasingly isolated from support networks within the United States.

For all the talk of "supporting the troops," the Afghanistan war receives little serious attention in American public debate. Obama rarely mentions the war, and his Republican challengers say little about it either. The American soldiers in Afghanistan are under orders to do the impossible at light speed, and they are ignored by their fellow citizens. We have re-created the conditions of extreme stress, isolation and victimization that were evident in Vietnam. We have turned a frustrating war into a breeding ground for American atrocities.

This is what happens when our national leaders try to fight a war and exit a war at the same time. We cannot do both. Our soldiers cannot build a functioning nation when they are told that we are not doing nation-building. They cannot defeat an enemy when we refuse to engage fully. They cannot work peacefully with local citizens when they are told that local citizens are the problem.

The choice is not to use more firepower or withdraw. The real choice is whether the United States is committed sufficiently to Afghanistan and willing to invest in supporting long-term efforts that will give our soldiers and local citizens a reason to believe that things will get better.

If the United States is unwilling to make these commitments, then it should admit it and reduce the demands on its soldiers. Either way, Americans must create a realistic basis for their activities in Afghanistan and end the fiction of a smooth transfer of authority from our overburdened soldiers to Karzai's corrupt administrators.

Realism will not please many Americans, but it will at least help to reduce the cycle of atrocities in Afghanistan. The time has come to escape the worst dynamics of Vietnam and re-learn the limits of American power.


----------



## Journeyman

Colin P said:
			
		

> _Nearly 130 gang and extremist group members have been identified on the Fort Lewis, Washington, Army Installation since 2005. These gang members are believed to be responsible for many of the criminal misconduct instances reported on base. _
> http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/a/gangs.htm


  :bowdown:    ...with sincere apologies (and MilPoints  )


----------



## Fatalize

From CBC

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/12/afghanistan-us-sergeant-opens-fire.html

U.S. soldier accused of killing Afghans had head injury

The American soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians, most of them children, had been trained as a sniper and recently suffered a head injury in Iraq, U.S. officials said Monday.

The name of the suspect, a married, 38-year-old father of two, has not been released.

U.S. Secretary of Defence Leon Panetta said the soldier may face capital charges, and that the U.S. must resist pressure from Washington and Kabul to change course in Afghanistan because of anti-American outrage over the shooting.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :bowdown:    ...with sincere apologies (and MilPoints  )



No worries i have often tasted my foot here and at tanknet.  :nod:

thanks for the points


----------



## PMedMoe

Taliban threatens to behead U.S. troops in retaliation

Suspected insurgents fired on an Afghan government delegation on Tuesday investigating the massacre of 16 civilians by a U.S. soldier, officials said, hours after the Taliban threatened to behead American troops to avenge the killings. 

Two of President Hamid Karzai’s brothers, Shah Wali Karzai and Addul Qayum Karzai, were with senior defence, intelligence and interior ministry officials travelling to the scene of the massacre in Najiban and Alekozai villages, in Kandahar’s Panjwai district, when insurgents opened fire. 

Karzai’s brothers were unharmed in the brief gunbattle during meetings at a village mosque, but a soldier and a civilian were wounded. The area is a Taliban stronghold and a supply route. 

“The Islamic Emirate once again warns the American animals that the mujahideen will avenge them, and with the help of Allah will kill and behead your sadistic murderous soldiers,” Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said in a statement, using the term with which the Islamist group describes itself. 

As the first protest broke out in Jalalabad city over the weekend shootings, the Taliban said Afghan government demands for an open trial of the U.S. Army staff sergeant being held for the slayings would not blunt civilian hostility towards Western combat troops. 

The unnamed U.S. soldier - said to have only recently arrived in the country - is accused of walking off his base in Kandahar province in the middle of the night and gunning down at least 16 villagers, mostly women and children. 
  
A U.S. official said the accused soldier had suffered a traumatic brain injury while on a previous deployment in Iraq. 

More at link


----------



## The Bread Guy

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Taliban threatens to behead U.S. troops in retaliation
> 
> Suspected insurgents fired on an Afghan government delegation on Tuesday investigating the massacre of 16 civilians by a U.S. soldier, officials said, hours after the Taliban threatened to behead American troops to avenge the killings.
> 
> Two of President Hamid Karzai’s brothers, Shah Wali Karzai and Addul Qayum Karzai, were with senior defence, intelligence and interior ministry officials travelling to the scene of the massacre in Najiban and Alekozai villages, in Kandahar’s Panjwai district, when insurgents opened fire.
> 
> Karzai’s brothers were unharmed in the brief gunbattle during meetings at a village mosque, but a soldier and a civilian were wounded. The area is a Taliban stronghold and a supply route.
> 
> “The Islamic Emirate once again warns the American animals that the mujahideen will avenge them, and with the help of Allah will kill and behead your sadistic murderous soldiers,” Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said in a statement, using the term with which the Islamist group describes itself ....
> More at link


More of what the Taliban have to say here:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/104772/post-1123400.html#msg1123400


----------



## Old Sweat

Matthew Fisher has allowed emotion to sieze control, but I fear he may be correct. This story from the Ottawa Citizen is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act.


Now is the time to speed up move out of Afghanistan

Consequences of shooting spree will hurt many

By Matthew Fisher, Postmedia News March 13, 2012 


As perhaps the only independent witness to every phase of Canada's military engagement in Afghanistan from 2002 to this year, I have always been among the evolving mission's strongest backers. I have observed what has been learned and what has been accomplished, and have always come away impressed by the soldiers and leaders who are part of what is the best small army in the world.

But only a couple of weeks after visiting Canada's trainers in Kabul and Herat, I am in a quandary.

What a lone American sergeant did early Sunday morning - patiently going door-to-door in a parched stretch of rural Kandahar which was for more than five years a Canadian responsibility, to murder 16 sleeping Afghan civilians, including nine kids - is beyond comprehension.

What the consequences will be for coalition troops - including slightly more than 900 Canadian advisers, who work closely every day with thousands of Afghan soldiers and police - is unknown.

But consequences can surely be expected for the actions of this soldier, who was apparently able to walk off by himself because he was attached to a group of U.S. Special Forces commandos who frequently operate outside of forward operating bases.

As a second rotation of Canadian trainers, built around a Royal Canadian Regiment battalion from New Brunswick, arrives this week in Afghanistan to begin an eight-month tour, the Conservative government and senior military commanders must urgently review the increased risks those Canadians may now face, and weigh them carefully against what Canada's trainers might still be able to achieve in Afghanistan before their advisory mission ends in March 2014.

In light of recent events, the federal government should actively consider speeding up the withdrawal of the last Canadian soldiers from Afghanistan.

Relations between coalition forces and Afghans were already seriously strained after a couple of U.S. troops defied every pre-deployment cultural briefing when they torched several Korans at an airbase near Kabul. This sacrilege - for that is how every Afghan viewed it - followed the appearance of a video in which a gaggle of U.S. Marines appeared to urinate on the corpses of three insurgents.

Such vile gifts to the Taliban - who had been routed in Kandahar and neighbouring Helmand in 2010 and 2011 thanks to the bravery, intelligence and perseverance of Canadian, American, British, Danish and Afghan troops - are undoubtedly having a cumulative effect on the always-fragile Afghan psyche.

Another less-discussed complication is that, with the U.S., France and Germany now on an accelerated timetable to quit Afghanistan, those Afghans who support the coalition's presence - and despite what many commentators have said, it has long been a solid majority of the population - are feeling desperate. Twinning what Afghans regard as rising foreign disrespect for them and their ways and the looming withdrawal of western forces, the situation for those Canadians still on the ground is unquestionably more unpredictable and volatile today.

It will be mostly bluster, but the Taliban has vowed to avenge Sunday's killings. A greater danger is that Afghan civilians may take matters into their own hands because, as Afghan parliament has already declared, they have "run out of patience" with the foreign troops in their midst.

The blood and treasure that Canada has lost in Afghanistan are matters of brutal arithmetic. There have been 158 Canadian military deaths. The mission, which was supported by both the Conservatives and the Liberals, has cost taxpayers well more than $10 billion.

What cannot be quantified is how quickly the slow, incremental gains that Canadian combat troops achieved in Kandahar, during rotations that began early in 2006 and ended last summer, are being squandered by the inhumanity and selfishness of a few renegade Americans.

Having seen at what high cost Canada's successes in Afghanistan were wrought - and the tentative but genuine friendships that were forged with Kandaharis in mudhut communities that cut through the so-called Taliban belt southwest of Kandahar City - I can only imagine the torment and extreme disappointment of the thousands of well-intentioned Canadians who have served in that ill-fated desert.

They deserved better than this. So did the Afghans.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


----------



## jollyjacktar

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Matthew Fisher has allowed emotion to sieze control, but I fear he may be correct.


I read this story this morning.  I have to agree with his sentiments on the whole.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Matthew Fisher has allowed emotion to sieze control, but I fear he may be correct.


And this appears to be a change of heart on his part, as he has not been one to yell "time for them to leave" in previous coverage of Canada's efforts.


----------



## Teeps74

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Matthew Fisher has allowed emotion to sieze control, but I fear he may be correct. This story from the Ottawa Citizen is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act.



I have had the pleasure of meeting Matthew a couple of times.  Big man with a bigger heart.  Make no mistake, he loves us I have seen nothing but well thoughout reporting from him, and more importantly, he tries to put things in context within the limited space he is alloted.  Yes, he is emotional in this... More importantly, I think he is correct.  A lot of our hard work has been undone.


----------



## fraserdw

All very well said.  Our Allies are spending our goodwill faster than we ever earned.


----------



## Pencil Tech

I'm more concerned for the safety of our troops with this "training mission" than I was when they were in combat.


----------



## Kalatzi

Here is a link to another article by Carl Prine - The Afghan Endgame. 

http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/13/the-afghan-endgame/

I thought it best to simply post the link rather than the text since:

He has a very dry sense of humour bordering on rage. If you dislike Scott Taylor, you'll really dislike this guy. 

It is rather long and focused on the American/Afghan view. 

That said it seems to have merit.


----------



## brihard

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> I'm more concerned for the safety of our troops with this "training mission" than I was when they were in combat.



That would be pretty misguided.


----------



## George Wallace

Brihard said:
			
		

> Pencil Tech said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm more concerned for the safety of our troops with this "training mission" than I was when they were in combat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be pretty misguided.
Click to expand...


Is it really?  I side with Pencil Tech in my concerns about this mission and its inherent dangers.


----------



## Old Sweat

And here is an oped piece by Terry Glavin that takes a different slant, but  with a sense of dejection and anger over the Canadian sacrifices that may have been of vain. It appears in the National Post and is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

Canada deserved better than this. So did the Afghans

Terry Glavin  Mar 13, 2012 – 10:31 AM ET | Last Updated: Mar 13, 2012 10:33 AM ET 


I have a lot of respect for Matthew Fisher. He’s been there, he’s done that, and he’s stuck with our soldiers in Afghanistan longer than any other Canadian journalist. He’s always been “among the evolving mission’s strongest backers,” as he puts it. This also puts Fisher with the Afghan people who support the NATO mission, and “despite what many commentators have said, it has long been a solid majority of the population.”

In light of recent events, not least yesterday’s news about an American psychopath who just went on a killing spree in Panjwaii, the brutal cost-benefit calculus of Canadian soldiers’ continued engagement in Afghanistan has caused Fisher to argue that “the Harper government and senior military commanders must urgently review the increased risks those Canadians may now face, and weigh them carefully against what Canada’s trainers might still be able to achieve in Afghanistan before their advisory mission ends in March 2014.”

Fair play to Fisher. I’ve been there too, I’ve been called “one of Canada’s leading voices in support of our Afghanistan campaign” (and worse) and I too harbour grave doubts about what the Canadian Forces’ troop trainers can reasonably hope to achieve now. But for different reasons.

Fisher: “What cannot be quantified is how quickly the slow, incremental gains that Canadian combat troops achieved in Kandahar, during rotations that began early in 2006 and ended last summer, are being squandered by the inhumanity and selfishness of a few renegade Americans.”

When Fisher refers to “the inhumanity and selfishness of a few renegade Americans” he cites the American psycho in Panjwaii along with the American idiots who burned those korans at the Baghram airbase a while back and the American soldiers who murdered three Afghans in the vicinity of Panjwaii in 2010. But when I hear words like “the inhumanity and selfishness of a few renegade Americans,” the first names that come to my mind are Barack Obama and Joe Biden. Only slightly lower on my list: Newt Gingrich.

Barack Obama is the greatest American catastrophe to befall Afghanistan since Jimmy Carter. Another dirty little secret American Democrats don’t want anyone remembering right now is that it was Jimmy Carter who started it all. Afghanistan was at peace and was progressing well into modernity and toleration when Carter started funding Islamist lunatics in that country. Long before the Soviet invasion, and long before Ronald Reagan — the guy who conventionally gets either the blame or the credit, depending on your “politics” — it was Jimmy Carter whose geostrategic genius was the act of rape that produced the savage offspring that Afghans have had to put up with ever since.

From the moment Barack Obama walked into the Oval Office he has run the American project in Afghanistan along the lines of his own elegantly brutal binary calculus. A) Give me a stage with a wind machine fluttering an American flag in the background and the text of a speech with the words “victory” in it just in time for the 2012 elections. B) Barring that, give me a “narrative” that presents Afghanistan as a hopeless quagmire and the “War in Afghanistan” as the hideous warmongering legacy of the hated George Bush, from which I have bravely exerted my charms to extricate the long-suffering American taxpayer.

For the crime of honestly proceeding in the knowledge that Plan A was never going to be possible and that only a slow and steady accumulation of Afghan-led victories would be worth America’s time and trouble in Afghanistan, General Stanley McChrystal was thrown into the grinding gears of the White House spin machine in the summer of 2010. Here’s how daft Americans can be: almost all of them still believe that Obama fired McChrystal because of some intemperate things McChrystal and his staffers said to one another, and which a sleazy Rolling Stone writer scribbled in his notebook, during a session at a pub in Paris.

It’s worth recalling those ostensibly outrageous remarks now. “Are you asking about Vice President Biden?” McChrystal says with a laugh. “Who’s that?”"Biden?” suggests a top adviser. “Did you say: Bite Me?” Well, bite me, because after McChrystal’s cashiering came a series of Pentagon career-enders and State Department demotions and White House defenestrations until all that was left was Joe Biden and a stratagem that would make Henry Kissinger blush. It’s either in spite of it or because Biden is the dumbest vice-president to come along since Dan Quayle that Option B was Biden’s preference all along. In any case this is what the American “policy” has come to: Screw the Afghans. Who in America cares about the Afghans’ pathetic yearnings for a democratic and sovereign republic anyway?

There’s no American “Left” that will cause any trouble. There are Republicans to defeat and a White House to hold. The whole sorry mess can be conveniently blamed on that lowbrow Texan president and all his Republican friends. Every Afghan calamity is a good thing. Every Afghan disaster can only justify the rush to get the hell out of there just as soon as decent appearances will allow.

If that doesn’t count as “inhumanity and selfishness” and a squandering of all the slow and incremental gains that Canadian soldiers achieved in Kandahar, then I don’t know what does.

The entire UN International Security Assistance Force project in Afghanistan was never more than an effort to open up just enough space for Afghans to entrench democratic institutions in their country – like free elections, for starters. It was never more than an effort to buy just enough time for Afghans to rebuild the work they had begun before the peacenik Democrat Jimmy Carter came along and improved things so much all those years ago.

Canadian soldiers and their families have every reason to be proud of the great sacrifices and the enormous contributions they have invested in that gallant cause. Between 2006 and 2011, a mere 2,800 Canadian soldiers almost single-handedly kept the Taliban at bay and prevented Kandahar from falling back into the Taliban orbit of the United States’ more influential friends among the generals of Rawalpindi and the bribe lords of Islamabad.

Our soldiers are still hard at work in Afghanistan, and that’s something Canadians can be proud of no matter the moral abyss to which the Obama administration has led the NATO enterprise in that war-broken country. The thing is, now that the comical U.S. presidential election cycle is amusing us all and keeping all those CNN hologram artists hard at work, there isn’t likely to be a NATO leader (I wouldn’t count on Stephen Harper; a better outside long shot bet would be Angela Merkel) who will want to wipe the grin off Biden’s face or do anything to slow Obama’s swagger.

I mean, seriously. To whose benefit? The greasy serial philanderer Newt Gingrich? Rick Santorum, a half-baked neo-papist who fancies himself to be a Roman Catholic? That creepy jackmormon Mitt Romney? Lined up against that lot John McCain looks like Sun Tzu and Sarah Palin comes off like Carl von Clausewitz.

If you imagine Barack Obama to be some sort of truly progressive internationalist, or Afghans to be irredeemably backward and tribal religious fanatics, or Canada’s participation in the UN’s ISAF effort in Afghanistan to be merely the ladies-auxiliary function of an ugly Rumsfeldian project of U.S. imperialism, then the painfully obvious won’t even occur to you. The important questions won’t even cross your mind.

Here’s just one: Why it is that what all the clever Canadians still say is now and was always “not the right mission for Canada” remains the right mission for Tonga, Mongolia, Ireland, Luxembourg, Singapore, Turkey and Lithuania, among a total of 46 countries with soldiers still in Afghanistan?

Get the “us” and the “them” wrong in all this and what will also be lost on you is the depth of the “inhumanity and selfishness” involved in the American discourse that is playing out right now in the wake of a demented American soldier’s random killing spree that piled 16 innocent and harmless Afghans, most of them children, in a corpse heap in Panjwaii. All you have to do is read the headlines: Afghan Massacre: How Rising Tensions Could Cost Obama Politically. Bring The Troops Home Now From Afghanistan. White House: Afghanistan Killings Unlikely to Alter Withdrawal Plan. Afghanistan Massacre Blows Hole In GOP War Support.

Of all grotesquely emblematic places, the massacre occurred in Panjwaii. In the summer of 2006, it was Canada that took Panjwaii from the Taliban. Panjwaii was Afghanistan’s Stalingrad. Canadian soldiers won the Battle of Panjwaii, the most important confrontation of the entire 10-year NATO effort in Afghanistan. It was only last summer that the Royal 22nd Regiment handed command of Panjwaii to a US Stryker brigade from Alaska.

We lost Captain Nichola Goddard in Panjwaii. We lost Sergeant Craig Gillam and Corporal Robert Mitchell in Panjwaii. We lost the medic Private Colin Wilmot there. Read the names. Look at where they died. Canada lost dozens of soldiers in and around Panjwaii.

Now ask yourself whether it’s possible to speak any of those soldiers’ names aloud in the same breath as the names Barack Obama or Joe Biden or Newt Gingrich without it sounding like you’ve muttered an obscenity. Then ask yourselves who the “us” is in all this, and who we mean, exactly, when we talk about the “War in Afghanistan,” when we talk about “them”.

National Post


----------



## The Bread Guy

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Matthew Fisher has allowed emotion to sieze control, but I fear he may be correct ....


And it didn't take "others" long to take notice, either.... 
http://www.ceasefire.ca/?p=10812


----------



## Kalatzi

The above article makes excellent points. 

I have tried to connect the dots on the various negative developments in Afghanistan that have made it into the press in the past couple of months. 

I think back to the famous exchange between first female US secretary of state,  and the first Afro-American head of the JCS. 

When she asked "What good is this much vaunted military of yours if we can't use it" He wrote in his memoirs "I thought  I was going to have an aneurysm"

I wonder if we,  or more especially the Americans,  are coming into  a situation similar to that experienced by the CF in the 90's, were it seemed to the Liberal government that the solution to every foreign problem was to send in Canadian Peacekeepers, with very little consideration of the effects on the morale and wellbeing of the Forces. 

The reason that I ask the question is that despite what has gone on, there continue to be calls made by politicians to  to involve forces  in areas such as Syria, and Iran. 

Given the above and thinking back to President Obama's remark to the effect "Who wants to be the last casualty in a losing war?"  I suggest that these may be symptoms of "Pushback"from the military forces involved.  In other words are they screwing up deliberately?

The intent being to make it more difficult for the Civilian leadership to involve the military in an endless succession of "Cabinet Wars"

My last point is that these incidents, plus the items like the famous "Pork eating Crusader" Patches and T-Shirts, with text in English and Arabic, No less, show a profound lack of cultural awareness.  It seems that this continuing lack is doing much to undermine the West. 

For a real adventure maybe I should try ordering one and wearing it on the TTC. Err maybe not.


----------



## brihard

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> ... plus the items like the famous "Pork eating Crusader" Patches and T-Shirts, with text in English and Arabic, No less, show a profound lack of cultural awareness.  It seems that this continuing lack is doing much to undermine the West.
> 
> For a real adventure maybe I should try ordering one and wearing it on the TTC. Err maybe not.



Frig, no kidding. I twitch every time I see some mouth breather wearing one of these, or the 'infidel' patches or t shirts, or what have you. You're not cool, you're not witty, and you ARE making us look bad.


----------



## Kalatzi

Thanks. I apologize for being long winded. 

If a photo of a group of US troops appears posing with a Confederate battle flag, along with a disclaimer from US Army public affairs, that they ha no idea of what it was. I'll consider my theory proven.


----------



## fraserdw

Brihard said:
			
		

> Frig, no kidding. I twitch every time I see some mouth breather wearing one of these, or the 'infidel' patches or t shirts, or what have you. You're not cool, you're not witty, and you ARE making us look bad.



I would never wear it in theatre, however, what I wear in Canada is no one's business but my own.  I am not be witty, I am not being cool; I am being free in my free democratic country.  AND Canadian Freedom never makes a Canadian soldier look bad.


----------



## brihard

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I would never wear it in theatre, however, what I wear in Canada is no one's business but my own.  I am not be witty, I am not being cool; I am being free in my free democratic country.  AND Canadian Freedom never makes a Canadian soldier look bad.



Respectfuly, we're going to have to disagree. I'll stand by what I said, and accept that on this site I'm probably gonna be standing pretty alone on this one. There are many things that we are legally free to do or express, but that still make us look bad. Claiming that to never be the case is plainly false; we can embarass our own profession by the way we act off duty. What are the members of the public that we serve going to think when they see a Canadian soldier flaunting a blatant disregard for the sort of cultural environment we have to work in? How does it reflect when pictures or videos go up on YouTube or Facebook that anyone can access? Might as well just wear a shirt that baldly says 'f*** you'. Most of us (including myself) do or say things that are in poor taste sometimes, but usually int he privacy of the mess, or out of uniform in a context where people won't recognize us for who we are. That's distinct from going out of our way to wear things that are a deliberate expression of contempt for a people from who our enemy comes, but who are not in whole or even in majority our enemy.

If you're a full time member of the forces, or even a part time one who makes his service known to others, how you comport yourself duty IS the business of others in the profession, and reflects on you and your unit. It's a matter of pride, discipline, and professionalism. I'm not saying you lack these things just because of a t shirt or a patch that you might sometimes wear, but sure as hell it forms part of the 'whole picture', and hiding behind freedom of expression doesn't change that.


----------



## fraserdw

I can respect a disagreement here.  In my opinion, the off duty gang bangers who beat their military qualifications into civilians downtown on a Friday night they pose a far greater threat to our collective reputation than my "infidel" hat ever will.  Particularly, since I am, freely, an infidel because I freely refuse to believe in any organized religion.


----------



## brihard

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I can respect a disagreement here.  In my opinion, the off duty gang bangers who beat their military qualifications into civilians downtown on a Friday night they pose a far greater threat to our collective reputation than my "infidel" hat ever will.  Particularly, since I am, freely, an infidel because I freely refuse to believe in any organized religion.



Absolutely. The idiots who have to go to a bar or a club and make sure everyone in the room knows they're army sure as hell make us look pretty damned bad, particularly when they decide it would be a great idea to pick a fight with some folks who are just trying to mind their own business.  On the original subject I'm just saying that it's not doing us any favours to go out of our way to make a point on this. A lot of the kind of fight we're in now seems to involve swallowing our pride and accepting that we can't just straight up muscle our way to the success we're trying to achieve. As much as anything I see it as simply avoiding reinforcing those kinds of attitudes in the newer troops who think they ARE being cool or funny, but don't really have the knack of choosing their setting or of exercising discretion.


----------



## armyvern

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> Thanks. I apologize for being long winded.
> 
> If a photo of a group of US troops appears posing with a Confederate battle flag, along with a disclaimer from US Army public affairs, that they ha no idea of what it was. I'll consider my theory proven.



No disclaimer, but you're 1/2 way there ...

scroll down


----------



## Fishbone Jones

'Infidel' is what they call us. You remove the stigma and association by accepting and embracing it.

I, personally, find nothing disgraceful, cool or funny about accepting that and turning it back on them.

Nor is it racist or otherwise to think so.


----------



## armyvern

I own an infidel shirt; it's too small to wear.  :-[


----------



## Fishbone Jones

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I own an infidel shirt; it's too small to wear.  :-[



I have lots and wear them regularly.


----------



## armyvern

recceguy said:
			
		

> I have lots and wear them regularly.



Want to donate an upsized one to me??  >


----------



## fraserdw

OK, so I am not strange afterall....whew!


----------



## Journeyman

It's the same hand-wringing mindset that would have me apologize for being a white anglo male; I know, I went to a Canadian university.

So sure, I did personally cause all of the world's problems -- I just haven't gotten the wording of my apology, and a suitable tone of contrition, quite right just yet. I'm sure it'll just be a second; hold your breath.


ps - I too have an Infidel t-shirt. Unlike the majority of them out there though, mine _is_ cool!    :nod:



In case you can't see it, what is being said here is not remotely the same, or condones, shooting a bunch of unarmed _anyone_ in their sleep.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one. 

Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?


----------



## GAP

Colin P said:
			
		

> Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.
> 
> Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?



doesn't that make you a retrobate?


----------



## fraserdw

Colin P said:
			
		

> Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.
> 
> Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?




Sorry sunshine, but if y'all is swillin' pig and hops, y'all is INFIDEL no matter who ya's prayin' ta!!! LOL


----------



## armyvern

Colin P said:
			
		

> Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.
> 
> Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?



Careful no one slaps a Fatwa on your ass!  

 :cheers:


----------



## jollyjacktar

Colin P said:
			
		

> Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.
> 
> Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?


Ah, you're a Jack-Muslim just like my wife.  

I never did buy one of the Infidel tees but I wish I had of bought a Achmed the Dead Terrorist patch which said, "Silence!  We killed him and we'll kill you!"  I hesitated and they were all sold out never to be replaced during my time in KAF.


----------



## brihard

Journeyman said:
			
		

> It's the same hand-wringing mindset that would have me apologize for being a white anglo male; I know, I went to a Canadian university.
> 
> So sure, I did personally cause all of the world's problems -- I just haven't gotten the wording of my apology, and a suitable tone of contrition, quite right just yet. I'm sure it'll just be a second; hold your breath.



Feel better now that you've got that out? Can the conversation move on now back to what's relevant and actually being discussed?

Given that I'm the only person who's vocally been on the particular side you're obviously aiming this at, maybe not read more into what I've said than what I actually wrote? As a university educated white male myself - a huge proponent of free speech and utterly unapologetic for being so - I still differentiate between 'can' and 'ought'. Not on grounds of political correctness, but just because some things are inherently crass, and more importantly because in the context of our profession unthinking crassness can come across as something entirely different when viewed by outsiders- be they our own civilian population, be they the civilian population of a state we're operating in, or be they the potentially belligerent but undecided population of an AO.

Regarding one of the posts earlier, no, it's not 'adopting a label', 'taking it back' or what have you. We're not a bunch of black urban rap culture kids who've 'reclaimed' ethnic slurs. We're not talking about those of us in the reserves who've jokingly adopted the moniker 'toon' as a mark of contempt for those who actually mean it. The danger in the way some are looking at it here is that we're looking at labels that we'll unthinkingly make fun of, but that from the enemy's point of view serve not to simply degrade us as we'd think of a slur here, but as an actual, no-shit motivator to bring undecided locals on side against us. 'Infidel' or 'crusader' or what have you aren't just something used against us as an insult. They're labels which, if they stick, if they're accepted by the population, serve to make more of them accepting of working to actively kill us. That's sort of a big deal. The moral significance of the terms to us is practically nil. To the civilian population in a 
place like Afghanistan it can mean a _hell_ of a lot more. In the wake of the Koran burning controversy I'm astounded that people would still be so lightly and unthinkingly dismissive of the cultural ignorance on display here.

We can't pretend we're in conflicts where these things don't matter. If we were in a straight up war where we can win simply by killing the enemy, great. But if we're in complex counterinsurgency operations where what we do today, tomorrow, and this year in this country will have an effect on how we're perceived ten years down the road in the next country, is the smug 'fuck you' we throw out at an enemy we hold rightly in contempt worth the long term potential impact? For that matter, can we look our own population in the eye and say we're faithfully serving their interests if we refuse to give a damn about the cultural intricacies or nuance that can make our job much easier, or much harder- in a job where 'harder' is measured in caskets?

I'm not saying a t shirt, a patch or a hat is going to individually make much of a difference. But it's the stupid small crap that collectively adds up and leads to bigger mistakes- and that invariably gets pointed at in retrospect, spun out of context and out of proportion, and used to demonize us when some jackass makes a dramatic mistake down the road and the foaming edges of our political spectrum decide it's 'take shots at the CF' week.

If thinking critically about how we present ourselves as professionals and how it contributes to bigger issues is 'hand wringing', so be it. I'd rather by the time it comes to trigger pulling we've seized whatever advantages we can, and denied as many as possible to the enemy. And that includes avoiding things that would negatively colour the perception amongst very fickle and very suspicious and traditionally rooted indigenous populations that we might need to bring on side. No need to help accurize the enemy's own propaganda.


----------



## Kalatzi

In an effort to get this thread a bit more back on track let me share a bit more of my concern with you. 

I entered the CF as Militia in the early 70's.  I was attached to Reg Force on several occasions. Also with National Guard, and boy those guys were happy they weren't in Nam. 

For those of you complain abut lack of public support now, have I got news for you. No Its not the usual - and we walked 15 miles each day to school - uphill - both ways.

The hazing we took from our civilian classmates was just brutal the first couple of years. That said - I never had a problem with civilians when in uniform.

The Americans virtually destroyed their military, and it didn't happen on the battlefield.  Others can speak much better on this than I, maybe we should have a grammar check as well,   it took them decades to bring it back. 

A poster on one of the other threads noted that one of the European groups - Danes? Dutch"still have a high level of public support. 

I'd suggest that Public Affairs types ply their counterparts with plenty of libations and scrutinize and adopt their campaign. 

No one doubts Allied prowess on the tactical level, but it seems that there is plenty of room for improvement on the higher levels. 

Its seems especially important that we improve for future missions. 

This isn't going to go over well however, when I heard that former PM St. Trudeau  had been elevated,  I damn near yodelled with joy, was planning on dancing on his grave. 

However, even then I think that one of the best things that PM's Pearson and Trudeau did was to keep us of of Vietnam. 

I'm just developing this thought. Think things aren't all that great now? Vietnam AND Antiwar riots AND a full blown FLQ crisis? Would we still have a CF?. Heck Would we still have a country. 

In summary our tactical capabilities are great, Others not so much


----------



## jollyjacktar

Brihard, unless I missed it somewhere I have not read any post here by someone who owns an Infidel shirt speaking of wearing it in theatre or rah rahing it either.  They have said they wear them or in Vern's case would (if her's fit) back here in Canada.  As was mentioned, this is a free county, still.  If they want to wear said shirt here so be it.  They've earned the right to do so and you should respect that right.  If you don't want to wear such attire, or don't agree with it, well again it's a free country, still.  You have that right.  You want respect, give respect.  It's a two way conversation, that.


----------



## brihard

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Brihard, unless I missed it somewhere I have not read any post here by someone who owns an Infidel shirt speaking of wearing it in theatre or rah rahing it either.  They have said they wear them or in Vern's case would (if her's fit) back here in Canada.  As was mentioned, this is a free county, still.  If they want to wear said shirt here so be it.  They've earned the right to do so and you should respect that right.  If you don't want to wear such attire, or don't agree with it, well again it's a free country, still.  You have that right.  You want respect, give respect.  It's a two way conversation, that.



I'm not particularly concerns about the people here on this site. Most are smart enough not to be idiots about it, and I have full faith from my years on this site that every person who's yet appeared in this thread is conscious of the need to not make us look bad, and they govern themselves accordingly.

I'm not contesting that anyone has the _right_ to wear things that express certain sentiments (although military law has its own pecularities on such things; we all know our rights are, in practice,a  bit more limited than those of a civilian). I'm not making a legal argument here. I'm saying that as professionals we need to be conscious that everything we do has an effect, and that unfortunately we're stuck in conflicts where these things matter more than they have in the past.

I respect unequivocally the right to express oneself. But 'rights' is legal terminology, and that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that exercise of every right we have can run contrary to sound judgment, to good sense, or even to simple professionalism. Speaking myself as a professional and as a leader, I'm not going to just shut up about things that I think contribute to reinforcing the wrong parts of military culture that contribute in many small doses to leading us towards bigger real problems. 

Do I *like* it that we have to govern ourselves this way? Hell no. But if everything we do has an effect, and if everything we do might be scrutinized, then part of being in our profession is realizing that it's an inevitability that if we don't self-police we're going to have trouble at some point down the road. If we go out of our way to be obnoxious in ways that could put the undecided both at home or abroad against us, what the hell are we doing?

There's the things we'll say and do in the JR's mess - in our own sort of professionally privileged forum - and then there's the face we'll show to the public and to those who live in the places we might have to operate. Taking off our uniforms and going home at the end of the day doesn't strip us of the significance of the things we do or say if people still know who we are.


----------



## Journeyman

Brihard said:
			
		

> Feel better now that you've got that out? Can the conversation move on now back to what's relevant and actually being discussed?


Truth be told, I was more discussing with the other 3-5 people that had Infidel t-shirts, with the yellow text at the bottom being for the benefit of any media people reading. 

You were quite clear with your views, so I wasn't remotely trying to engage. Please, feel free to not wear an Infidel t-shirt, patch, or whatever is upsetting you, and relish the moral superiority you feel is your due.

While I was in their country, I assure you that I remained professional and respectful. I see no reason to change my lifestyle now that I'm home in my country. Mind you, fashion sense precludes me from wearing the t-shirt on a daily basis, but if I chose to I certainly wouldn't cower in fear of scandalizing someone wearing a burkha who comes into my local tavern for a beer.

I do worry, however, that you may turn an ankle coming down off that hobby-horse. You be careful.


----------



## Infanteer

Journeyman said:
			
		

> While I was in their country, I assure you that I remained professional and respectful.



That's not what the Pope would say.


----------



## Jed

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> ...I For those of you complain abut lack of public support now, have I got news for you. ....
> The hazing we took from our civilian classmates was just brutal the first couple of years. ...
> 
> The Americans virtually destroyed their military, and it didn't happen on the battlefield.  Others can speak much better on this than I, maybe we should have a grammar check as well,   it took them decades to bring it back.
> ....
> . Think things aren't all that great now? Vietnam AND Antiwar riots AND a full blown FLQ crisis? Would we still have a CF?. Heck Would we still have a country.
> 
> In summary our tactical capabilities are great, Others not so much



I didn't expect that I would ever be quoting you Kalatzi, but you just never know. The early 1970's was a bad time if one wanted to be appreciated for wearing your country's uniform and expecting to be appreciated for it.

In the US, with the Vietnam war winding down and up here in Canada with PET running the show being in the military, especially in the Reserves, was a sure fire way of preventing close relationships developing with the opposite sex.  

The military community pretty much had to become self sufficient and look to each other for home support. Maybe this led to the attitudes that spawned the 'decade of darkness' some years later.


----------



## Journeyman

Infanteer said:
			
		

> That's not what the Pope would say.


OK, I was respectful and professional _towards the Afghans_. The Americans.... :dunno:

 ;D


----------



## brihard

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Truth be told, I was more discussing with the other 3-5 people that had Infidel t-shirts, with the yellow text at the bottom being for the benefit of any media people reading.



My apologies; I was wrong.



> You were quite clear with your views, so I wasn't remotely trying to engage. Please, feel free to not wear an Infidel t-shirt, patch, or whatever is upsetting you, and relish the moral superiority you feel is your due.



I don't claim any moral superiority. Please don't put words in my mouth- as you said, I'm quite clear in my views. I don't think I'm better than anyone here, I just look at one issue a different way. I like to think that as a community of professionals this is the sort of thing we should see the value in talking about, particularly when we've probably all at some point or another had to push upon our soldiers the needs to consider how they comport themselves publicly; it's something that's only ever getting trickier and more important. 



> While I was in their country, I assure you that I remained professional and respectful.



Which I never doubted. I never saw anything while I was deployed overseas  that led me to question our operational professionalism. Nor at home in domestic ops. That's not at issue here. I'm sure that I recall in between bouts of beating my head off the desk last week that there's still something on the PER about 'conduct off duty', which suggests to me that's something we pay attention to because it presumably matters somehow and somewhere.



> ...but if I chose to I certainly wouldn't cower in fear of scandalizing someone wearing a burkha who comes into my local tavern for a beer.



I don't think any of us are too fussed about giving individual offense to someone- although I personally think that simply not being rude is its own virtue. But it's an interesting conclusion when you refer right at the start to your earlier N.B. for the media types reading.

We wouldn't hand the enemy AK ammo. Why hand them ammo for their PR machine?


----------



## aesop081

Brihard said:
			
		

> something on the PER about 'conduct off duty', which suggests to me that's something we pay attention to because it presumably matters somehow and somewhere.



It is "Conduct on/off duty" and i submit that whoever decided to include that had different concerns that the potential to offend someone with off-duty fashion.


----------



## brihard

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It is "Conduct on/off duty" and i submit that whoever decided to include that had different concerns that the potential to offend someone with off-duty fashion.



You're right of course; I was being unnecessarily snide. But I think the rest of what I'm saying still has merit.


----------



## Kalatzi

Jed said:
			
		

> I didn't expect that I would ever be quoting you Kalatzi, but you just never know.... The early 1970's was a bad time if one wanted to be appreciated for wearing your country's uniform and expecting to be appreciated for it.




Thanks - It's never been easy. Nor should it. 

I recall my first military history class - The Reading of "Tommay Atkins"- Rudyard Kipling

First verse reproduced here with the usual caveat 


I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play

Kipling of course is seen is one of the  great advocates for The British empire . 

He cautioned however against Hubris "Requiem" a very dark entry was written at the height of the Victorian Era. 

I wasn't aware until recently that he lost his son in WWI,  leading to "For Jack"

And the grim line If they ask us why we died? Tell them because our fathers lied"

A free mini-history lesson". 

BTW several lines in Tommy Atkins didn't check out and I preserved them anyway, Thanks


----------



## Teeps74

Brihard said:
			
		

> Do I *like* it that we have to govern ourselves this way? Hell no. But if everything we do has an effect, and if everything we do might be scrutinized, then part of being in our profession is realizing that it's an inevitability that if we don't self-police we're going to have trouble at some point down the road. If we go out of our way to be obnoxious in ways that could put the undecided both at home or abroad against us, what the hell are we doing?
> 
> There's the things we'll say and do in the JR's mess - in our own sort of professionally privileged forum - and then there's the face we'll show to the public and to those who live in the places we might have to operate. Taking off our uniforms and going home at the end of the day doesn't strip us of the significance of the things we do or say if people still know who we are.



I could name a couple of instances from the 90s that really drive home the absolute necessity to self police.  More then one thing contributed to the decade of darkness, not the least of which being the extreme amounts of social credit (read trust) we burned, destroyed and actually said "who the f*** cares!" about.  

We are best suited to police ourselves.  If someone else decides to do it for us, we will not even have messes to mess around in.

Well said Brihard.


----------



## Teeps74

recceguy said:
			
		

> 'Infidel' is what they call us. You remove the stigma and association by accepting and embracing it.
> 
> I, personally, find nothing disgraceful, cool or funny about accepting that and turning it back on them.
> 
> Nor is it racist or otherwise to think so.



I am an infidel, by definition... BUT! Celebrating this publicly does us no favours at all. 

Social credit is kind of like a credit card. Quick and easy to spend. By a book, some groceries, heck, that candy bar is cheap... A couple of weeks later, "HOLY HANNA! HOW DID I SPEND ALL THAT!".

We spend more social credit on the little stuff, by far, then the big stuff. Like it or not, there are those out there looking to exploit all the little things that we do, and they are very good at it. We need to get ourselves in check, because in this day and age EVERYTHING is potentially a YouTube video.  We have to be more aware of everything we do today, because we are being watched much more closely then ever before in history... So far, we are passing the test I like to think, but it is only through vigilance and self policing that we will continue to pass the test.

Believe it or not, something as little as wearing an "Infidel" t-shirt here at home, can be a catalyst thousands of kms away (remember, sometimes it takes many, but do we really need the one more that starts more riots?). Think of what happens in the deep south when someone burns an American flag... Too me, it is just a piece of cloth, but to others...


----------



## brihard

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> We need to get ourselves in check, because in this day and age EVERYTHING is potentially a YouTube video.  We have to be more aware of everything we do today, because we are being watched much more closely then ever before in history... So far, we are passing the test I like to think, but it is only through vigilance and self policing that we will continue to pass the test.



Too true. Ask any of my troops from G8/G20 and the 'YouTube Test' was something I hammered home repeatedly in our preparatory training. And it's something I continue to bring up whenever I talk to the guys on things verging on this.

We've got an enemy not at all reticent to twist words and facts to their own purpose. Pictures make it even easier when a desirable image can be presented with a fictitious context. There's only ever one chance to make a first impression.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Brihard said:
			
		

> Feel better now that you've got that out? Can the conversation move on now back to what's relevant and actually being discussed?
> 
> Given that I'm the only person who's vocally been on the particular side you're obviously aiming this at, maybe not read more into what I've said than what I actually wrote? As a university educated white male myself - a huge proponent of free speech and utterly unapologetic for being so - I still differentiate between 'can' and 'ought'. Not on grounds of political correctness, but just because some things are inherently crass, and more importantly because in the context of our profession unthinking crassness can come across as something entirely different when viewed by outsiders- be they our own civilian population, be they the civilian population of a state we're operating in, or be they the potentially belligerent but undecided population of an AO.
> 
> Regarding one of the posts earlier, no, it's not 'adopting a label', 'taking it back' or what have you. We're not a bunch of black urban rap culture kids who've 'reclaimed' ethnic slurs. We're not talking about those of us in the reserves who've jokingly adopted the moniker 'toon' as a mark of contempt for those who actually mean it. The danger in the way some are looking at it here is that we're looking at labels that we'll unthinkingly make fun of, but that from the enemy's point of view serve not to simply degrade us as we'd think of a slur here, but as an actual, no-shit motivator to bring undecided locals on side against us. 'Infidel' or 'crusader' or what have you aren't just something used against us as an insult. They're labels which, if they stick, if they're accepted by the population, serve to make more of them accepting of working to actively kill us. That's sort of a big deal. The moral significance of the terms to us is practically nil. To the civilian population in a
> place like Afghanistan it can mean a _hell_ of a lot more. In the wake of the Koran burning controversy I'm astounded that people would still be so lightly and unthinkingly dismissive of the cultural ignorance on display here.
> 
> We can't pretend we're in conflicts where these things don't matter. If we were in a straight up war where we can win simply by killing the enemy, great. But if we're in complex counterinsurgency operations where what we do today, tomorrow, and this year in this country will have an effect on how we're perceived ten years down the road in the next country, is the smug 'fuck you' we throw out at an enemy we hold rightly in contempt worth the long term potential impact? For that matter, can we look our own population in the eye and say we're faithfully serving their interests if we refuse to give a damn about the cultural intricacies or nuance that can make our job much easier, or much harder- in a job where 'harder' is measured in caskets?
> 
> I'm not saying a t shirt, a patch or a hat is going to individually make much of a difference. But it's the stupid small crap that collectively adds up and leads to bigger mistakes- and that invariably gets pointed at in retrospect, spun out of context and out of proportion, and used to demonize us when some jackass makes a dramatic mistake down the road and the foaming edges of our political spectrum decide it's 'take shots at the CF' week.
> 
> If thinking critically about how we present ourselves as professionals and how it contributes to bigger issues is 'hand wringing', so be it. I'd rather by the time it comes to trigger pulling we've seized whatever advantages we can, and denied as many as possible to the enemy. And that includes avoiding things that would negatively colour the perception amongst very fickle and very suspicious and traditionally rooted indigenous populations that we might need to bring on side. No need to help accurize the enemy's own propaganda.



That's simply your opinion. It can be as easily discounted as you do ours. You can't claim the moral high ground on it. Your saying it doesn't make it right. It just doesn't work that way. Don't like it, don't wear one, but don't patronize those that do by pretending they're ignorant of the facts or berate them for not fitting your PC view of things.


----------



## The Bread Guy

(As he gently tries to coax the thread back to the original topic.....)



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> We've got an enemy *not at all reticent to twist words and facts to their own purpose*.


Indeed we do.....


> .... The American invaders are claiming that a single mentally-ill soldier was the perpetrator of this unambiguous crime and consider it as an individual transgression and unintentional action in order to protect themselves from legal action. But according to witnesses and the scale of the crime scene, it becomes clear that this was not act of a deranged individual but rather the actions of a group which was intentional and pre-planned. All the cautionary military steps were also taken including the use of air-power. Therefore all the international right groups and judicial organs should treat them as war criminals and they should be handed over to the heirs of the martyrs for Qisas Bil-misl (death for killing/life for life) in accordance with criminal law.
> 
> The occupying Americans claim that there were only 16 people killed in this massacre but according to witnesses and the number of observed funerals, that number is far exceeded, the heirs of whom demand justice for their dead from the murderers ....


----------



## brihard

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's simply your opinion. It can be as easily discounted as you do ours.



I have not discounted opposing opinions- I considered them, gave them due weight - knowing, after all, who I'm speaking to here - and still on the balance of arguments disagree. I'm not ignoring what's being said.



> You can't claim the moral high ground on it. Your saying it doesn't make it right. It just doesn't work that way.



Which is why I explicitly said I claim no moral high ground, and why I've said that this is my opinion. Thanks, I'm right there with you on this one.



> Don't like it, don't wear one, but don't patronize those that do by pretending they're ignorant of the facts or berate them for not fitting your PC view of things.



I don't give a rat's ass about being politically correct. I care about the _effect_ of what we do and how we're perceived inasmuch as it affects our ability to do our job and how we're seen by the Canadian public as representing their interests. I'm not pretending any of you are ignorant of facts; I accept that we've made different judgements based on either value or reasoning.  Trying to flippantly pass me off as someone who's merely dismissive of everyone else's views, as someone who's standing on a soapbox, or as someone who's wedded to PC nonsense is simply inaccurate. What I've yet to see from many people - none of those who disagree with me - is actually looking at the meat of what I'm saying; why these things _don't_ matter in your mind the way I believe they do. All I see is several people acting as if I'm coming at them personally when I'm not. When I disagree with your opinion, or with a conclusion coming from your own thinking on a subject, that's not a personal attack. We just disagree.

Anyway, I've said what I've felt the need to say- if anyone else feels the need or desire to take the 'last word' on this I doubt it'll touch on anything I haven't already gone into. Out of respect for the original thread I'll desist from here.


----------



## Teeps74

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> (As he gently tries to coax the thread back to the original topic.....)
> Indeed we do.....



The Taliban is really good at twisting context to suit their purposes... More importantly, they know their Target Audience (TA). The Afghan is ready to side with whomever is causing them the least damage at this point in time.  Least damage physically, socially and spiritually. These past couple of months have been clearly in favour of the TB. Peeing on corpses, burning Korans, now shooting rampage. The TB are maximizing the effects of all of these, creating a true sh** storm for those that have to deal with this on a psychological plane.

There is a lot more that needs to be said on this topic, however this means is not appropriate.


----------



## brihard

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> The Taliban is really good at twisting context to suit their purposes... More importantly, they know their Target Audience (TA). The Afghan is ready to side with whomever is causing them the least damage at this point in time.  Least damage physically, socially and spiritually. These past couple of months have been clearly in favour of the TB. Peeing on corpses, burning Korans, now shooting rampage. The TB are maximizing the effects of all of these, creating a true sh** storm for those that have to deal with this on a psychological plane.
> 
> There is a lot more that needs to be said on this topic, however this means is not appropriate.



I don't know a schmick about the science (withcraft?) of effective messaging, but it's clear as hell that they've got home field advantage. We're essentially one side in a competitive discourse where the enemy knows the language and the cultural setting, and they know the right triggers. We might waste time trying to hammer home points that simply don't mater, and ignoring small cues that to the locals might be huge.

We're lucky in the west that almost anyone can whip out the iPhone and within minutes do a bit of due diligence in trying to figure out the truth in a message. We take it for granted that there's a smorgasbord of media to consume. The insurgents have a lion's market share in information in some places though, and if we piss off the local authorities who we might hope to use to disseminate our message, the insurgents get a de facto monopoly. Unfortunately they DO have a lot of success in presenting stuff like this nutbar as representative of us, and undermining the credibility of our whole side. And because we hold ourselves to the inviolable handicap of restricting ourselves to honesty, they aren't even constrained by the same rule set as ours.

I've always found the Taliban propaganda watch interesting- and they're getting damned good at it. They've got some skilled English speakers translating this stuff; clearly our own population (through the media) is part of the target audience.


----------



## Teeps74

Brihard said:
			
		

> I don't know a schmick about the science (withcraft?) of effective messaging, but it's clear as hell that they've got home field advantage. We're essentially one side in a competitive discourse where the enemy knows the language and the cultural setting, and they know the right triggers. We might waste time trying to hammer home points that simply don't mater, and ignoring small cues that to the locals might be huge.
> 
> We're lucky in the west that almost anyone can whip out the iPhone and within minutes do a bit of due diligence in trying to figure out the truth in a message. We take it for granted that there's a smorgasbord of media to consume. The insurgents have a lion's market share in information in some places though, and if we piss off the local authorities who we might hope to use to disseminate our message, the insurgents get a de facto monopoly. Unfortunately they DO have a lot of success in presenting stuff like this nutbar as representative of us, and undermining the credibility of our whole side. And because we hold ourselves to the inviolable handicap of restricting ourselves to honesty, they aren't even constrained by the same rule set as ours.
> 
> I've always found the Taliban propaganda watch interesting- and they're getting damned good at it. They've got some skilled English speakers translating this stuff; clearly our own population (through the media) is part of the target audience.



Witchcraft? I have not sacrificed too many goats this week, so not witchcraft...

The first part of the problem is understanding the value of credibility and then accepting that what is credible to me might not be credible to you... Now amplify that across cultures.

Next is truth. We in the western world like to bandy about with this totally subjective term called truth. Truth is flavoured by our upbringing, education, religion, mores and ethics. To me, the Maple Leafs are the best team in the NHL, to someone else, they are total junk. Both are true statements.

The TB understand the need to fill a void. They move fast with their messaging and do not have a clear "approval process". They do have a plan for their messaging, and usually stay on topic. They follow Goebels' train of thought for propaganda "...tell a big lie and keep repeating it...". It really does work, else the entire marketing industry in NA would not exist today. 

Our best defence against the TB propaganda machine is our credibility. Our natural propensity to want to deal with facts. Our credibility is also found in our actions (more so then words). Actions in Afghanistan tribal regions are not lightly forgotten (especially bad actions).

Dealing with the psychological plane is important. We need to spend more time exploring the bigger (and littler) ramifications of our decisions on on a cause and effect plane...


----------



## brihard

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Witchcraft? I have not sacrificed too many goats this week, so not witchcraft...
> 
> The first part of the problem is understanding the value of credibility and then accepting that what is credible to me might not be credible to you... Now amplify that across cultures.
> 
> Next is truth. We in the western world like to bandy about with this totally subjective term called truth. Truth is flavoured by our upbringing, education, religion, mores and ethics. To me, the Maple Leafs are the best team in the NHL, to someone else, they are total junk. Both are true statements.
> 
> The TB understand the need to fill a void. They move fast with their messaging and do not have a clear "approval process". They do have a plan for their messaging, and usually stay on topic. They follow Goebels' train of thought for propaganda "...tell a big lie and keep repeating it...". It really does work, else the entire marketing industry in NA would not exist today.
> 
> Our best defence against the TB propaganda machine is our credibility. Our natural propensity to want to deal with facts. Our credibility is also found in our actions (more so then words). Actions in Afghanistan tribal regions are not lightly forgotten (especially bad actions).
> 
> Dealing with the psychological plane is important. We need to spend more time exploring the bigger (and littler) ramifications of our decisions on on a cause and effect plane...



So would it be more strategically advantageous to delegate some messaging approval authority lower for faster dissemination in the face of current events, hoping that getting on it faster would outweigh the potential risk of leaning too far forward on something? I could see some tricky calls to be made there. Is there a prospect for us to counter the advantage of speed that they have in messaging?


----------



## Teeps74

Brihard said:
			
		

> So would it be more strategically advantageous to delegate some messaging approval authority lower for faster dissemination in the face of current events, hoping that getting on it faster would outweigh the potential risk of leaning too far forward on something? I could see some tricky calls to be made there. Is there a prospect for us to counter the advantage of speed that they have in messaging?



Suffice to say, IMHO we have the mechanisms in place. The rest of the conversation is not for here.  Flick me an email on DWAN, I can get more in depth there, or better still, talk to your C2, and get on a course.


----------



## brihard

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Suffice to say, IMHO we have the mechanisms in place. The rest of the conversation is not for here.  Flick me an email on DWAN, I can get more in depth there, or better still, talk to your C2, and get on a course.



Understood.

If my life circumstances should appear to be such that I can commit to the time you guys are looking for and I wouldn't be a wasted loading, I'll likely be doing exactly that.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> So would it be more strategically advantageous to delegate some messaging approval authority lower for faster dissemination in the face of current events, hoping that getting on it faster would outweigh the potential risk of leaning too far forward on something? I could see some tricky calls to be made there. Is there a prospect for us to counter the advantage of speed that they have in messaging?


There's open source evidence that some pretty big organizations are getting counter-messaging out quickly without what appears to be cumbersome approval processes ....

http://twitter.com/#!/isafmedia *
https://twitter.com/#!/ISAFmedia/status/178827561231593474
https://twitter.com/#!/ISAFmedia/status/176714753652178944
https://twitter.com/#!/ISAFmedia/status/175458071567548416

.... so it's not impossible, and is being done by Western democracies.  How much messaging control those far higher up the (political) food chain are willing to give up is a different question, though.

* - Even if countering some Twitters =/= countering the Taliban itself, it _still_ counts as countering the Taliban's _message_.  Like on the movie "Patton", where the aide said that defeating Rommel's plan was like defeating Rommel.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Maybe not exactly _polite_, but germane none the less:






Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/index.html


----------



## Kalatzi

Another good piece from Carl Prine
Repoduced under the fair use provision of the copyright act

Mind Over Matter

By Carl Prine Wednesday, March 21st, 2012 9:04 am
 Posted in On History, On War
Read more: http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/21/mind-over-matter/#ixzz1pld7HxD0

Combat veterans have been phoning me throughout our days, wanting to talk about Bob Bales, the staff sergeant who apparently murdered in their sleep 16 Afghan villagers in Pangwai — mostly women and children – and then built a pyre of babies and their mothers and lit it.

Some have sought to explain away the slaughter.   The 38-year-old father was reeling from debt, maybe marital strife.  He’d suffered from brain injury, probably depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.  He’d been drinking, maybe washing down pills to take the edge off the pain – mental or physical, probably both.




Perhaps he was one of the Madigan hundreds, men who desperately sought help for their anguish and were turned away, sent back to war as little better than malingerers because the Army cares most about numbers, and numbers should move down range.

Mind over matter, you know?  They don’t mind.  And you don’t matter.

Bales snapped, they whisper. It could happen to you, to me, anyone who has seen all that blood. It could and you know it, Carl.  You know this.

This they say to me because I listen and don’t judge.  Even when I know that they don’t really mean all of it because they also have had their brains bludgeoned by IEDs and they, too, have killed and watched their buddies die in parts and smears, and none of them —  not one — shot babies, much less made them into burnt offerings to gods of war.

But you try telling that to men who see their wife in his.  Or those who have come to believe that the children of Bales are like theirs, and this is probably so because all children are more like one another than they are us.

These men might’ve deserved some commendations, too, and never got them because they go to those of higher rank — even when they don’t really earn them.  Same as a promotion Bales thought he might get but didn’t, because rank often is pinned on the man who went to war less and is still whole, not the broken soldier trying to recover.

Bales, they say, is like many other leaders told to buck up and go on another deployment because we need men who lead.

Mission accomplishment then troop welfare, all soldiers know this, even when they’re teetering on an edge.

My enlisted friends especially understand what it’s like to sit through hot nights on a cot in a fetid building on the cusp of a village that smells like piss, no one saying anything. Not after a day of staring into the sullen faces of Afghans, not after the triple stack lit the truck with a fire that burnt longer than Bales’ stack of babies.

That loneliness and anger become corporeal.  A man can feel the weight of the plates as they dig into his back.  He can see his left fist.  It’s curled over the years into the oval of an M4 hand guard, much as a racecar driver’s hands will crease lap-by-lap into the shape of a wheel.

Perhaps when he’s falling asleep he can feel his right finger slowly squeeze a trigger of air, just as the thumb mindlessly flicks to auto.  Again and again.  Silently in time with our dreams.  Killing the night.

You don’t even know why you’re doing it or even if you’re shooting.  You leave that to your finger, your thumb, your hand and call it “muscle memory” because it makes it easier to forget what it really is.

Well, all dreams, I might say to you, really are dreams about yourselves.  The faces you see are really you, some aspect of you anyway, just as the fears that are projected in nightmares are yours, too, those that otherwise would haunt your days if you didn’t stash them in evening shade.

It’s probably best that your hands are killing the night in your dreams. Better than yourself when awake.  Or a village when drunk, I could say, even if you might not believe it.

You see, Bales is your nightmare awakened and marched through your day.  He’s the out of place mirror to you, the man you fear you might become if your wife left, the docs numbed you with handfuls of pills and shamed you out of a profile.  The monster after someone pours you a few drinks.

A loaded gun, staring out of a fetid room, toward a village that probably will kill you soon enough.

It doesn’t help that you sense your wife feels for his wife and wonders to herself whether you might ever snap, too.  That the TV cameras would be on her front porch, staring past the curtains at a mess she wished she had picked up before America arrived.

These are natural fears, I say to you.  Unavoidable, really.  You’re coming to terms with a man you think you know but who has done things no man ever should.  He disgusts you and yet you still ask of me absolution from sins you never committed.  You do so because the trespasses against the village in Pangwai might as well have been done in your name by someone very much like you.

So say my friends who were enlisted.

*****

My friends the officers have been sadder still, and that surprised me.

They often call Bales a “kid,” even when he’s older than they are.  They ask me what signs they should look for in their kids.  “When is a man getting close to losing it?” they ask.

And I flatter myself by imaging the question isn’t rhetorical.

They feel that the Army, Fort Lewis, the infantry and all his leaders have failed this man, a soldier everyone can now concede never should’ve been redeployed to war, a man they wish had given some warning signs, some indication of indiscipline or pain so profound that he needed to be jailed for his own safety.

And that of babies who did this world no harm.

Or, worse, the officers mull over the more terrifying worry that he showed many signs and everyone missed them, or they didn’t care after they saw them, which also is plausible and that realization only makes it worse.

The grief of my officer friends is often inconsolable, even though they never knew Bales.  It’s as if they’re looped in endless loops of regret, but I’ve come to believe that’s just because they’re officers.

The officer’s burden of command is like the plates that dig into a staff sergeant’s back, only they tug at his soul.  Officers see Bales as one of their own men, and they sense that they’ve failed him, just as they constantly worry that they’ve failed their troops.

The good officers, anyway.  Not the others.

The good officers fear that there are other men like Bales in the Army, so many after more than a decade of constant war, but they know that the mission won’t give them time to find them because troop welfare always comes second.

So I say to these men and the enlisted who give their jobs meaning what I have been saying to many people, even those who never have served.

You shall find no small number of victims as the pain radiates out of Pangwai: The wife and children of SSG Robert Bales,  those who survived  in the villages, the Special Forces soldiers who surely didn’t deserve to  find the offal left in his wake and an Army that must bear the brunt of scandal for this tragedy while much of the rest of our democracy treats it as entertainment.

For those who are compassionate, you shall first remember those who got the worst in the exchange of these pains, the dead of Pangwai:  Mohamed Dawood, Khudaydad, Nazar Mohamed, Payendo, Robeena, Shatarina, Zahra, Nazia, Masooma, Farida, Palwasha, Nabia, Esmatullah, Faizullah, Essa Mohamed and Akhtar Mohamed.

And if some of us say their names aloud, and it sounds like a prayer in a language ancient and unknown, it probably is, which is why we say it.

No man can own all of this pain, so quit trying to bear it away.  No one of you is like Bales, even if you see him chased through your soul’s house of mirrors.  But you know men who could be like him.  Get them help.

Officers, be  good leaders to your men.  Serve them.  Search out those who might become like this man and care for them, too, because ultimately this war isn’t worth another Bales, and you must rebuild an Army in the ashes of his pyre in Pangwai.

Yes, I agree, Bales isn’t a victim.  But I also would say to you that he’s near enough to victims we know.

This your heart realizes even if your head doesn’t, much like a finger that tugs on an invisible trigger as you sleep, the thumb flicking steadily onto auto.


Read more: http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/21/mind-over-matter/#ixzz1plcULGV8


----------



## Jarnhamar

I absolutely LOVE wearing my infidel T-shirt to the gym and other public places.

If someone gives me a weird look I'll look them in the eye nod my head and say "yuup"

I'll throw any combo of infidel patch, IR canadian flag and jolly roger patch on my gym bag.


----------



## dogger1936

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> The Taliban is really good at twisting context to suit their purposes... More importantly, they know their Target Audience (TA). The Afghan is ready to side with whomever is causing them the least damage at this point in time.  Least damage physically, socially and spiritually. These past couple of months have been clearly in favour of the TB. Peeing on corpses, burning Korans, now shooting rampage. The TB are maximizing the effects of all of these, creating a true sh** storm for those that have to deal with this on a psychological plane.
> 
> There is a lot more that needs to be said on this topic, however this means is not appropriate.



Last few months? Have they ever wanted us there in the south? Magic 8 ball says never.

(Edit to add: that comes off as arrogant toward you teeps in retrospect. I assure you it wasnt meant to sound as such!  I just don't think they ever wanted us there in the south honestly.)


----------



## Jarnhamar

As well, what wisdom lies behind winning a heart of greed and a mind that goes berserk on the equivalent of not saying god bless you when one sneezes?

Less interested in winning hearts and minds, more interested in physically assuring my daughter isn't ripped apart by a suicide bomber on the way to grade 1.


----------



## Teeps74

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Last few months? Have they ever wanted us there in the south? Magic 8 ball says never.
> 
> (Edit to add: that comes off as arrogant toward you teeps in retrospect. I assure you it wasnt meant to sound as such!  I just don't think they ever wanted us there in the south honestly.)



After conversations with the limited number of Pathans in KC (I was a planner, folks saw fit to hide me in a dark room), I do believe that at one point in time, Kandaharis did want us there as opposed to the TB. Remember that the TB, during their reign, were not exactly merciful nor understanding.

Unfortunately, I wonder if we are not perceived as worse now (I do mean we as in the coalition sense).

It's all academic now... C'est la vie.


----------



## Kalatzi

"As well, what wisdom lies behind winning a heart of greed and a mind that goes berserk on the equivalent of not saying god bless you when one sneezes?"

That sounds like just a touch of exaggeration.  It may also apply to say a Wall Street Bankster, and the last I heard they were on our side. 

Hmmm, perhaps President Obama should surge some of them over. It'd be kinda like Aliens vs Predator.   >


----------



## Jarnhamar

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> a Wall Street Bankster, and the last I heard they were on our side.



Can i interest you in some water front property down in Florida?


----------



## Kalatzi

Touche


----------



## Kalatzi

Child witnesses to Afghan massacre say Robert Bales was not alone

link here http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10927844-child-witnesses-to-afghan-massacre-say-robert-bales-was-not-alone

I hope that the reports are wrong. Yes, it could be classic misinformation.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Using fired bullets like these, which hit a womans house in Iraq.


----------



## George Wallace

;D

I love it when someone shows a photo like that.  Anything to rile up the ignorant.


----------



## Kalatzi

The article has a link to a dateline feature. Its about 15 minutes long. 

I do think that Bales acted alone. That said, its clear from the video that some Afghans don't agree.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I', inclined to believe the Afghan kid.



> A brother of one victim told Hakim that his brother’s children mentioned more than one soldier wearing a headlamp. They also had lights at the end of their guns, he said.


Totally believable. Soldiers DO have headlamps and taclights at the end of their guns. How would a kid know to make that up?



> The massacre came several days after a roadside bomb attack that cost one soldier his leg. Village residents told reporters and Afghan government officials that after the roadside bomb attack, U.S. troops lined up men from the village against a wall and told them they would pay a price.


Believable. Classic you hurt one of us so we're going to kill your women and children.



> Gen. Karimi, assigned by Afghan President Hamid Karzai to investigate the murders, told Hakim that he, too, wonders whether Bales acted alone and how he could left the base without notice.



With support falling for the war in Afghanistan the US has everything to gain and nothing to lose by sending out a sloppy kill team to murder men women and children then arresting a single scape goal to take the rap.


----------



## dogger1936

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I', inclined to believe the Afghan kid.
> Totally believable. Soldiers DO have headlamps and taclights at the end of their guns. How would a kid know to make that up?
> Believable. Classic you hurt one of us so we're going to kill your women and children.
> 
> With support falling for the war in Afghanistan the US has everything to gain and nothing to lose by sending out a sloppy kill team to murder men women and children then arresting a single scape goal to take the rap.



Yeah cause kids and villagers around panjuai would have never seen a soldier after dark.  : And for certain the taliban have not told them what to say to the media.

Sounds like info op's by the en capitalizing on a crappy act by one ISAF member.


----------



## The Bread Guy

.... from _Stars & Stripes_:


> Staff Sgt. Robert Bales will be examined in spring by an Army panel of doctors to determine whether he is mentally fit to stand trial on charges of murdering 17 Afghan villagers, according to an Army official briefed on the case.
> 
> A “sanity board” of Army doctors from Walter Reed National Military Medical Center will meet with Bales and review his files to understand more about his personal life and military experience.
> 
> The board will likely examine any prescription medications he may have taken before the March 11 killings in two villages in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan.
> 
> The doctors will determine whether Bales had a severe mental disease or defect at the time of the killings. They also will decide if he is able to appreciate the wrongfulness of his alleged conduct and whether he is able to understand the court-martial proceedings and to cooperate in his defense.
> 
> The panel, which will offer a clinical psychiatric diagnosis of Bales, is expected to complete its work in the next 30 to 45 days, according to the Army official, who was not given permission to speak on the record.
> 
> The sanity board is an important early step in a court-martial process that may extend for years. Bales is to be tried in the murders of 17 civilians, most of them women and children, in a case that constitutes the most serious war crimes to emerge from U.S. involvement in Afghanistan ....


----------



## Delaney1986

_- mod edit to clear up copyright issues -_

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._


> Staff Sgt. Robert Bales has been instructed by his civilian attorney to not participate in an Army sanity-board process scheduled for this spring that would determine whether the Joint Base Lewis-McChord soldier is fit to undergo a court-martial on charges of murdering 17 Afghan civilians.
> 
> The attorney, John Henry Browne, said that base officials denied defense requests that included allowing counsel to be present at the board proceeding, make a recording of the proceeding and to put a neuropsychologist on the board.
> 
> “We have asked that these ill-advised decisions be reconsidered, no response so far,” Browne said in a statement released Friday.
> 
> Browne said that his client has a Fifth Amendment right to remain silent and not participate in the sanity-board process.
> 
> Earlier this week, a base official confirmed that a sanity board of Army doctors from Walter Reed National Military Medical Center will meet with Bales and review his files to understand more about his personal life and military experience before March 11, when he is accused of murdering the civilians in two villages in Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan.
> 
> The doctors will determine whether Bales had a severe mental disease or defect at the time of the killings. They also will decide whether he is able to appreciate the wrongfulness of his alleged conduct, to understand the court-martial proceedings and to cooperate in his defense, according to an Army official briefed on the decision.
> 
> The panel, which will offer a clinical psychiatric diagnosis of Bales, is expected to complete its work in the next 30 to 45 days.
> 
> The board produces a brief document that states whether Bales is fit for trial, and a longer document that can be obtained by the defense and later by prosecutors if mental competency is raised during the court-martial.
> 
> Maj. Chris Ophardt, a base spokesman, said the board proceeding is supposed to be a neutral, non-adversarial medical review, and that lawyers are not typically present when the board convenes. He said that JBLM officials involved in handling the defense requests thought that Walter Reed would pick the best qualified medical personnel to serve on the board, and that it would not be appropriate to dictate who that should be by granting the defense request to appoint a neuropsychologist.
> 
> Browne, in past interviews, has said there’s a possibility that his client suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, brought on by injuries and multiple combat deployments — important issues to be explored by the defense.
> 
> Daniel Conway, a civilian military-defense attorney, said that in such a high-profile case as Bales’, it would be reasonable to request to have his attorney present during the sanity-board process. Conway said it also would be important to have a neuropsychologist on the board to examine issues related to traumatic brain injury.
> 
> Even if Bales does not participate in the sanity board, its members could still opt to reach a determination of fitness through a review of medical records and other actions.


Stars & Stripes, 13 Apr 12


----------



## PMedMoe

U.S. soldier charged in Afghan massacre to plead guilty

A U.S. soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians in two rampages from his Army post last year has reached a plea deal with prosecutors to avoid the death penalty, one of his lawyers said on Wednesday.

Robert Bales, a decorated veteran of four combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, is accused of gunning down villagers, mostly women and children, in attacks on their family compounds in Kandahar province in March 2012.

Lawyer Emma Scanlan said in an email that Bales would plead guilty to premeditated murder charges and would then go before a military jury for sentencing to determine whether a life sentence for his crimes would include the possibility of parole.

“There will be a jury for the sentencing phase beginning in August,” Scanlan said.

Army prosecutors, who had sought the death penalty, have said Bales acted alone and with chilling premeditation when, armed with a pistol, a rifle and a grenade launcher, he left his base twice in the night, returning in the middle of his rampage to tell a fellow soldier: “I just shot up some people.”

The shootings marked the worst case of civilian slaughter blamed on a rogue U.S. soldier since the Vietnam War and further eroded strained U.S.-Afghan relations after more than a decade of conflict in that country.

More at link


----------



## The Bread Guy

> The US soldier who murdered 16 Afghan villagers last year has been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
> 
> Staff Sgt Robert Bales, 40, opened fire on men, children and women during the attack in Kandahar on 11 March 2012.
> 
> The father of two pleaded guilty in June to avoid the death penalty.
> 
> He apologised during his sentencing hearing at a Washington state military base on Thursday, calling the attack an "act of cowardice".
> 
> Sgt Bales had been making a case for why he should one day be eligible for parole, which would have meant he could have been released in 20 years ....


BBC, 23 Aug 13


----------

