# "So You Want To Be A Pilot" Merged Thread 2002 - 2018



## Jug

I know that this is mostly an army website, but does anyone know if they are looking for pilots as well in CF...I hear that there is a freeze due to the new NATO training program.


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## Zoomie

The pilot trade will never be closed officially.  Recruiters use the attraction of being a pilot as a lure to get people to take another trade.
So... Pilot (32U) is still open to DEO and ROTP only.  Just as a heads up though, I CT‘d to the Regs back in 1999 and have just passed the halfway point on my course at Moose Jaw, I waited 1.5 years for the course to begin.  Back in ‘99 they recruited something in the order of 150 pilots.  This year they will probably only recruit around 10 pilots.  Good luck


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## Jug

Thanx...how do you find the course: fun, difficult?? 

I am planning to do DEO...I‘m part of the lay-off people from the high-tech area and want to get out, fast. So, I would like to do the helicopter or fighter plane...what are the chances of me getting sattled with a transport aircraft?


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## Zoomie

The course is challenging and you will experience the most stress in your CF career during it.  But it‘s a sh*t load of fun too.  $6million dollar aircraft to fly (solo too) and you do stuff in it only the military is allowed to do.
If you want to fly Helo‘s, you are guaranteed it.  Jet slots are the most coveted job, with multi-engine slots being next most popular.  More than half the airforce fleet consists of helicopters, so there are always lots of opportunities.


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## Jug

Another question. 1.5 year wait... Were you in the CF while you waited or were you in the private sector?


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## Jug

...and why are twin-props the second most popular?


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## Zoomie

I was in the CF, being paid for the entire time.  

Multi-engine postings are second most popular because most pilots want to fly fixed-wing aircraft.  Apart from jets, the multi world is the place to go for that.  For myself, I want to fly TAL (tactical air lift).  That way I can drop people like Recce41 over the LZ, and resupply the crunchies in the field with supply drops.  The CF doesn‘t have a BC (Bomber Command) anymore, or I would be in there in a flash.


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## bouchard

Im thinking about joining the army. I had this presentation in 2nd period the other day and it was real interesting and put the final touches on me wanting to join the army.

I want to know what specific route i would take to become a pilot, i saw the pay role stuff, but thats not what im interested in. I wanna know what i would sign up as, and what i would have to go through. Like schooling traing etc. I know you need 2 yrs of flight school, but i would apreciate all the info i can get, thanks.


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## Michael OLeary

Actually, to become a pilot, you would be joining the Air Force. Even our Griffon helicopters with missions to support the army are air force units.

  http://airforce.gc.ca/  
  http://airforce.gc.ca/careers_e.htm  
  http://airforce.gc.ca/cardocs/pilotFAQ_e.htm  

You should visit your Recruiting Centre to get further information on your choice of military occupations.


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## Zoomie

Two years of flight school??

I wish... going on 4 years now, still not done.

There is no pre-requisite for previous flying experience (PFE).  You do need a University degree to become an officer in the CF. CEOTP, OCTP, etc are not feasible entry plans for the Pilot MOC anymore.

There is also zero guarantee that you will get to fly the airframe of your choice (ie. Griffon, CF-18, Hercules).  It‘s all a matter of timing and your overall skill level.

Good luck, check out those links that Mike gave, they will answer most questions.


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## bouchard

Any suggestons on what to become. Im looking for an exciting life style, taveling around the world keeping active etc. Just want to know all the options before i choose one sepcific thing.


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## Illucigen

My extremely biased Army opinion:

Airforce: Like hotels? Go with them 
Navy: Like water, and, well, water? Go with them
Army: Like land? Roughin‘ it? Camping? Hiking? Weapons and big guns? Go with us 

Id say if you are looking for adventure, you can find it anywhere in the forces... ‘cept for maybe Log. 

As for Pilot.. you wouldnt believe how many RMC cadets start out trying to become pilots.. only to have their hopes and dreams dashed as they then try and get AirNav, and then (normally due to the eyes) try for ATC... Ive seen it happen to at least 20 people that I go to school with, and thats before flight training even starts.

The med is very stringent, and as previously said, so is training. Just showing up is not good enough.. ****  even a lot of effort sometimes isnt... Its a really tough trade. And dont even think you will get to fly the CF-18. If you do, consider it a bonus, not an expectation, otherwise you‘ll be severely disappointed.

As for joining, as prev said... Air Navigator and Pilot are officer positions, and the CF requires degrees. You can do ROTP (RMC or POSSIBLY a civi university), or DEO, if you go and get your degree and then join afterwards.


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## bouchard

I also wanna know one more thing. Theres this Co-op thing in my school. They said i can apply for co-op with the canadian armed forces. But he said it was competitive, any way i can up my chances of getting in.


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## bouchard

One more question, can you get in having corrected vision, or does it have to be natural. I mean, i wear glasses, but am looking to get laser eye surgery next summer.


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## Zoomie

The Co-Op program is a great tool for recruiting Reservist NCMs.  It involves an agreement between your school board and the local Militia unit.  They train you to BMQ standards, and you get a few highschool credits out of it.  If it is highly competitive, just stick it out and see what happens.

If you want to be a CF Pilot you must be born with 20/20 uncorrected vision.  LASIK correction is not recognized by the Medical teams at DCIEM, so it won‘t wash with them.  Unfortunately, at this time, you cannot be a pilot without those vision requirements.  You CAN however, join the CF under another MOC with LASIK correction in order to meet their vision requirements.  It is only the Pilot MOC that has this restriction at this time.


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## bouchard

I dont understand that fully. I cant be a pilot, but i can be...?


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## Zoomie

Sorry for any confusion.  I will sum it up quite succinctly.

Ask yourself the following questions:

1) Do I wear corrective lenses?

2) Have I undergone LASIK surgery to fix my eye-sight?

3) Is my vision worse than 20/20 (uncorrected)?


If you answered YES to any of those questions, you are not medically fit to become a pilot in the CF.


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## Illucigen

Exactly as Zoomie said... 

Canada has the most stringent Pilot qualifications in the world.

You can however have lasik surgery for other MOCs, just not pilot.


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## iamkirk

I have been in awe of the sky forever and a day, to my knowledge i have 20/20 uncorrected vision, and I would like to look into someday becoming a pilot, preferably helicopters.

My friend who I go to for all my military knowledge told me to come and check things out. So if anyone here can give me information as to being able to speak to a recruiter etc.. or even a pilot , just someone in general who can give me a good and accurate spin on things , I would greatly appreciate it.


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## pipstah

Hi all,
       I were wondering, with all those ads that we see everywhere that the CF is looking for pilots, how many of you applicated for that trade? I‘m happy that the trade is wide open for this year since it was always that i wanted to do and now i finish my university really soon, wich is a good timing.


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## rdschultz

I considered it.  Really considered it.  But then I realized that although I loved the idea of being a pilot (who wouldn‘t want to be a fighter pilot), I wasn‘t sure thats where my skills were best placed.  Basically the thought of getting out in 20 years and being a pilot wasn‘t really my cup of tea.  I wouldn‘t really ever consider being a pilot as a civilian occupation.  I figured I‘d sign up for occupations that are closer to what I‘ve been looking for in the civilian world.


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## corporal-cam

I would but they have the dumb 20/20 sight rule, maybe I‘ll be your air nav in a couple years.


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## nULL

Forget fighter pilot, it would be great to fly ANYTHING...I too would like it very much, flying had always been my dream. My plan is to finish my degree at university and do some time in the reserves, then head to Australia (I have dual citizenship) and apply to _their_ airforce. My family is from there and I got my sister to call an ADF recruiter, they are currently "evaluating" the "possiblity" of training pilots with laser eye surgury. Apparently, 40% of the Australian population of 21 million wears corrective lenses, so I guess they‘ve decided it‘s not worth losing 8 million prospective candidates right off the bat. 

If not that, there is always getting a private license (starting at only 22 thousand...!) and applying from there. 

My father (don‘t live with him) does physicals for air force pilots and RCMP officers, and said they have to be in rather good shape, to say the least.

May I ask what degree you are getting? When I was researching the trade, I found that Ground School is rather heavy in maths. I‘ve never had severe problems with them (did some calculus at university), but I chose instead to work on a degree in political science (useless as it is), and in a competitive selection environment (wide open doesn‘t necessarily mean desperate), I‘m just not sure how I‘ll stack up.

Hence the plan for military experience. And hey, if that doesn‘t work out, there‘s always the regs.


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## pipstah

I‘m doing my degree in human relation communication... i did my 436 math and not my 536 math. I however did at cegep somes quantitatives math and at university i did somes stats math. To applicate on pilot you dont need necesserly math but it give you more chance. The selection board for pilots is march 27!!! I cant **** wait what will be the answer! I will cross fingers that day and try to put somes positives power when Borden people will read my files and decide what they will do with me


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## nULL

good luck man. put in a good word for me, perhaps i‘ll be joining ya in 4 or so years    let us know how it goes.


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## tabernac

cpl-cam, the 20/20 vision rule is more of a guideline. if you have close to 20/20 then your reevaluated, etc. But your vision still has to be good(you can still apply and wear glasses as far as I know)


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## nULL

you can‘t actually. DEO candidates must have 20/20. DEO is where you have the degree and apply from there. look at the entry plans on the air force website.


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## pipstah

yup for the DEO program you must have a 20/20 vision...  I know that for the other one you can have a little less view but there again to be a pilot you must score almost all 1 in your medic compilation


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## Harris936

Hey all,


          I've got three queries.


1) Lets just say I don't have 20/20 vision. But, I get laser surgery so that I do have 20/20. Am I eligable to be a CF pilot?

2) Also, how hard is it to become a fighter pilot? (I expect the answer to be somewhere between 'very' and 'extremely')

3) Is Canada going to buy the new F-22???????


Regards,
Harris


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## Zoomie

Hi Harris,

Here are some short, but brutally honest answers to your questions:

1) No - Laser surgery is not acceptable for the Pilot MOC

2) You are correct in your assumption:  You will most likely have a 1 in 16 chance of becoming a CF-18 pilot in the CF.

3) Future acquisitions for the CF is always strife with ?? and !!, so your guess is as good as mine.

Cheers,


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## Harris936

Zoomie,

          Ouch.... Rough stuff. Well thank's anyway. Are you a fighter pilot?


Regards,
Harris


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## Inch

No, he flys the Sleek Greyhound of Death!  ;D I'm a fling wing dude myself, Sea Things to be exact. 

Cheers


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## casing

You guys crack me up with your lingo!


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## Zoomie

As Inch inferred, I fly multi-engine aircraft.  Due to the huge wait for the CP-140 Aurora (aka Sleek Greyhound) I have been posted down the hall to 442 SQN, where I will fly the CC-115 Buffalo in its SAR role.


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## Inch

I didn't know you switched to Buffs, good deal.

The lingo is part of the whole Air Force "experience", you'll hear a ton of it.   Always good for a chuckle. I think "crunchie" is my favourite word, that's an army dude, because that's the sound they make when you land on em!


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## Harrier101

Here is the Medical Requirements set out for Flight Surgoens


http://www.dciem.dnd.ca/medical/glfs_e.html


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## Macklinen

I heard that they were changing the req'mts on the laser eye surgery. I heard that they were going to accept it. is that true? Oh, and i have a question. I'm 4'11". Is that gonna be a huge problem in becoming a pilot?
thnx


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## Inch

The Americans are researching the effects of laser eye surgery, but as of yet or in the near future, don't count on it.  4'11" could be a problem, I'm 5'7" with a 26" inseam and my leg length was almost too short. It all depends on how you're built, I knew a guy that was about 5'2" so there are short guys around, but lower limit according to the DCIEM website is 157 cm, which is just a shade under 5'2".

Cheers


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## tree hugger

Macklinen - are you done growing?


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## Macklinen

Almost. Its hereditary. My mom is 4'11" too. so i dont think im gonna grow that much more.


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## Inch

Macklinen, how old are you? I was 5' nuthin when I started highschool, when I was 15 I grew about 6 inches in what seemed like a few monthsr. My mom is 4'11" too. 

Cheers


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## Macklinen

I've got a year left of high school, and I'm female. I won't be growing anymore than a couple more inches, if i grow anymore. Women generally tend to be on the shorter side of the spectrum.


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## AmmoTech90

Slightly off-topic, ref the US military and eye surgery.  Talking to a Marine down here in Haiti, they can be provided with it for free.  This is only if your supervisor/OC/CO/boss will sign off on you not being deployed for a year.  Not a bad perk, good vision and a break from their hectic deployments.
I understand the height restrictions are due to ejection requirements, do the different seats have different requirements?


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## nULL

The ejection seat measurement is the one for the trainer that everyone uses - I think I read that somewhere.....
I don't know what it is for Canada, but I'd imagine the requirements are fairly similar between Western nations that fly similar aircraft. 

Height - minimum 163 and maximum 193cm.
Sitting Height - maximum 100cm.
Buttock to knee length - maximum 67cm.
Buttock to heel length - maximum 122cm.

4 feet 11 inches = 149.86 centimeters ---> you may be out of luck.


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## Macklinen

are the height req'mts the same for all kinds of pilots? or do they differ from multi engine, to helicopter, to fighter?


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## nULL

If I've read my info right (perhaps a real pilot can confirm) they all start out on the same aircraft. Everyone. From there they go off to specialized rotary, multiengined, and jet aircraft training - but the initial trainer is the same. The trainer has an ejection seat, so I'm guessing that aircraft is the "line". This is all going from what I've researched, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. PM Zoomie or the Sea King dude to be sure.


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## nULL

nULL said:
			
		

> If I've read my info right (perhaps a real pilot can confirm) they all start out on the same aircraft. Everyone. From there they go off to specialized rotary, multiengined, and jet aircraft training - but the initial trainer is the same. The trainer has an ejection seat,so I'm guessing that aircraft is the "line". This is all going from what I've researched, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. PM Zoomie or the Sea King dude to be sure.




http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/equip/equip1o_e.asp

Here's the trainer.


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## Macklinen

Thnx nULL, uve been really helpful!


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## nULL

Just what I've read. To clarify, the measurements I posted are the base pilot requirements for the Australian Air Force, which I am only assuming mirror the Canadian ones. Also, I'm not sure if the trainer has an ejection seat - the jet trainer definetely would, but would a prop driven aircraft? Something to ponder. Anyways, you still have plenty of time to grow while you get your degree, which is something you WILL need.


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## Macklinen

Whats the best route to take, to get a degree through the force, and is one actually serving the RCAF while earning the degree?


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## nULL

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/pilot/Pilot_e.pdf

clicking that link will allow you to download a PDF file that will have all the answers to your questions, in particular the entry plans.


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## Zoomie

nULL is correct in his statements.  The height requirement is based on our fleet of ejection seat capable aircraft.  If your knees stuck out too much, you would lose them when departing the aircraft (aka ejecting).  If you are too short (4'11" is too short - sorry) you would never be able to touch the rudder pedals and therefore never be able to recover from an inadvertant spin - this has happened in the past, lessons learned.


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## Inch

The height and other measurements are all based on the worst case scenario for all aircraft so to speak.  Leg length is important since if your legs are too long, as Zoomie said, you'll be a whole lot shorter if you eject.  On the flip side, if your legs are too short you won't reach the pedals in a chopper.  The pedals in the Harvard move quite a bit and I never had a problem reaching them, the Jet Ranger for basic helo school is a little different case, the pedals don't move as much and I had to use a cushion behind me to push me forward enough to reach them fully.  Of course there are limits to how many cushions you can use, 1 being the max. Sitting height is the same sort of thing, too tall = bad for ejection seats and Jet Rangers, too short is bad for ejection seats (your head won't rest on the head rest, which is very important) and you'll have trouble seeing out of the bigger airplanes. Even your reach is important, if you've got the inertia reel locked on your seat you won't be able to reach certain switches. So, being short isn't necessarily a problem flying jets since the seat and pedals move, but flying helicopters it's a problem since the seats don't move and the pedals are rather limited in the range of motion.  They only hire people that can do all jobs, it gives them better flexibility in sending you to the different communities after you finish Moose Jaw. 

As for the CT156 Harvard II, it's got a Martin Baker Mk 16 ejection seat, the same one that's in the CT155 Hawk and will be in the Joint Strike Fighter.


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## bobs28

i was planning on going through rmc to get my degree to  become a pilot, does anyone know how tough it is to get in there, or is it based on what occupation you want to go into (like if they need one occupation you will get in easier)? are they still short on pilots, a year ago i was listening to the radio and the recruiter on a radio show said they were short something like 60 pilots out of the 90 they expected to join?


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## rdschultz

For what its worth, a couple guys posted on here that they were the only ones to pass aircrew selection, got offers for RMC, but those offers were for other trades.  From the CF's point of view, it takes 7 (I think?) years for an RMC applicant to get his/her wings, but 2 or 3 for a DEO applicant.  

I'll dig those posts up for you, if I can, because it'll probably mean more from their perspective, than from mine.


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## rdschultz

Here's one:  http://army.ca/forums/threads/1596.0.html

Here's the other one, just for shits and giggles.  It doesn't help though, because I just directed him to the the first one.  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/2090.0.html


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## nULL

It would take 7 years for a DEO applicant anyway. DEO's have to have a degree. Degrees usually take 4 years. Add 3 years to get wings, and there you go.


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## rdschultz

Right, which is why I said from the CF's point of view.  I can see how when they have a massive shortage of people, the DEO option is more appealing to them, so they probably rely on it more. 

From the applicants perspective, there is no difference in timeline.  

Also, just to clarify,  I'm not trying to disuade bobs28 from applying for RMC, just trying to provide information so he keeps all his options open.  More or less I'm trying to point out that because there is a shortage, that does not mean that they're accepting lots of RMC/ROTP applicants for the Pilot trade.


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## bobs28

hmm so i guess if i dont get accepted for pilot for rmc, but someother moc, i should just try and get a degree elsewhere and try for deo after?


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## rdschultz

Thats something you'll have to decide for yourself.  Be sure to talk to recruiters too.  There are pro's and con's to either choice, so you have to figure out whats best for you. 

There are a lot of other great trades in the CF that you might excel at, so don't rule out the possibility of trying something else.  But it seems that people who want to be pilots REALLY want to be pilots, so this probably isn't a very convincing argument.


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## Inch

Don't forget you can always do an occupational transfer while you're at RMC provided you pass aircrew selection.   A certain number of pilot slots avail are for OTs from within the CF.   I know a few guys that joined for AERE or some other trade then switched to pilot. Another thing that hasn't been pointed out yet, the RMC route is 4 years of school, 2 years to get your wings, plus you owe 7 years after you get your wings, that's right boys and girls 13yrs.   The 7 years isn't negotiable, it's restricted release which means one way or the other you're staying in till that time is up.

So as long as you pass aircrew, you've always got the option of switching later. The point is don't give up.


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## casing

Just from prior posts on the subject, I do not think it is any easier to get into RMC depending upon what occupation you apply for.  RMC is extremely competitive--for all applicants.


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## Sheerin

This is just a curious question, since of course I do not possess the 20/20 vision (and thinks to astigmatiism its only getting worse..) 
but i'm 6'2, how (un)comfortable would it be for me in a Griffon or a Seaking?


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## bobs28

so im guessing getting into rmc is based on which program you choose, and how competitive it is?


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## Inch

Sheerin, you could be 7' tall and still be comfortable in the Sea King or Griffon, where you'd have the problem would be the Jet Ranger for basic helo school, I'm 5'7" and my head touched the roof. The tall guys have to slouch to be somewhat comfortable. It's definitely a tiny chopper.

Cheers,


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## Sheerin

Thanks, I was kinda curious to know.  
How many hours did/would you have to log on the Jet Ranger, before moving on?


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## Inch

The basic helo school course is 92 hrs. You're allowed to have up to 10% or 9.2 hrs for review if you're having trouble or you fail a test. Also, sometimes there's air traffic control delays or weather or some other thing that delays your flight beyond the scheduled time but they don't count that against the req course time (we call it DNCO or Duty Not Carried Out).  My total from BHS including DNCO was 115.7 hrs, all Jet Ranger time. 

Cheers


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## carpediem

A pilot friend of mine has heard that the training sequence for new pilots has changed slightly recently. Instead of Second Language Training immediately following BOT and before Phase 1 Primary Flying it can now occur after Phase 2 Flying at an appropriate time.

Anyone currently in the system who has done this?


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## Born2Fly

I wouldn't be totally opposed to it, but I just wonder for the Pilots themselves... Doing both phases of flying training, and then before going to Phase III (Helos, Multi-Engine, or Jets), having to do 7 months of SLT. I know I would rather get on with Phase III training, rather than have to wait 7 months to start it.


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## pipstah

Well... its probably depend on what is your fist language because for my part, I will have to do the second language course right after my officer course because i'm from Quebec. Knowing how the army like the standardisation of everything my guess would be no but then again i dont know. English is the only language in aviation so all the french speaking person (like me) need to master it before going on those course to be able to do the communication in english while in the air and catching what the instructors are telling me. :warstory:


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## saintjoseph

My understanding is that at RMC, there is a set number of students they can push through in a given year, and those total number of seats are broken down and assigned MOC's based on the CF's requirements. So recruiters will act to fill those pilot seats that are available there first as these placements are paid for by the military already simply because they run the school regardless. If, like is the case for the last few years, they need many more pilots than there are pilot seats in RMC, they will act to fill them another way. Sure, DEO is cheaper for them, but they will, maybe, also send you to a civilian university. That was the case with me. I applied and was accepted after my second year at a civi-U and they sponsored me for the remainder of my education there. Although I ended up paying for a few years myself, I am happy about that now that I have heard just how difficult RMC can be. 
So to those who are thinking of getting their degree and then applying DEO...think about applying part way through your degree...that way you can go to school, for free, and get paid, without all that daily inspection and military stuff that they go through at RMC.


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## CanadianPilot

Hello Everyone....My First post here.  Great Site!


So, I'm a Commercial Pilot-Fixed Wing.  300Hrs. 23 Years Old.  Live in Toronto.  College (3Yr Diploma) Education.  

I am not employed as a pilot, but run my own business right now.  I have a fair amount of free time, and would be interested in becoming a Pilot in the Reserves.  

Is this possible?

I have sent an e-mail to derbach.bg@forces.ca, but it comes back as undeliverable. 
Look forward to your thoughts!



Cheers

CP


---------------
Jet Thrust.com - The Aviation Network
www.jetthrust.com


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## pilot_hopeful

In order to be a Pilot reg force or reserve, you have to be an officer. In order to be an officer you must have a degree from a recognised university.  The recruiter at 4900 yonge st told me civilian certification is worthless to the military.

drop in an ask the recruiters, its a big brown building across from the shepherd subway stop.

Rich


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## Inch

There are very few pilot positions avail to reservists. TacHel being the most common. 400 Sqn in Borden and 438 Sqn in St Hubert are reserve Sqns, there are a few reg force positions there but it's mostly reservists. If you're interested in fixed wing, there's 402 Sqn in Winnipeg, but to give you a comparison of the experience they're looking for....I know a guy that got accepted to fly the Dash 8s at 402 Sqn, he had over 8500hrs and was the Capt on a CRJ for Air Canada. I think there's also some reserve positions in Trenton, but again, I have my doubts that they'll hire you with 300hrs of bug smasher time. Don't get me wrong, I have friends that had under 300hrs when they first flew the Herc, but they had gone through all the training in Portage, Moose Jaw and Portage again.

In addition to all this, you also have to pass the same aircrew medical that the rest of us do. So if you wear glasses, forget about it. If you have an irregular heart beat, forget about it.

Most reserve pilots that I know are retired reg force pilots. There's a very select few that are recruited off the street. The air reserve doesn't work the same way as the army reserve, one evening a week and one weekend a month kind of thing.

Cheers


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## Love793

pilot_hopeful said:
			
		

> In order to be a Pilot reg force or reserve, you have to be an officer. In order to be an officer you must have a degree from a recognised university.   The recruiter at 4900 yonge st told me civilian certification is worthless to the military.
> 
> drop in an ask the recruiters, its a big brown building across from the shepherd subway stop.
> 
> Rich



Check with your recruiter again.  There's a program that is solely for Civilian Pilots.  It's run in partnership with Canadore.  Also a 3 Yr program at a recognised community college is also acceptable for officers.


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## Inch

Love793, I know the program you're talking about, it was my entry plan. It has since been closed to my knowledge. 

In any case, at a minimum he'd have to go to Portage for the multi course. They made my RJ Capt buddy do it and as I said, he had 8500hrs. The course would be approx 3-4 months in length, could you miss that amount of time from work? Pilot training is not something you can do on weekends or whenever you're avail. It's highly technical and requires a certain amount of practice to be good at.


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## Love793

Thanks for the info.  I'm still awaiting the updated recruiters handbook.  He should still be able to use the "Semi Skilled" entry system.  Good point on the time frame though.


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## mbhabfan

I am pretty sure that the three year diploma will not qualify you as an officer in the airforce but Inch or someone correct me if I am wrong.


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## Inch

I have a 3 year diploma, however, I got in in 1999 when they were actively recruiting pilots. Times have changed and to my knowledge a degree is required now.


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## Bograt

Love,

You're a young fellow. Whats a year? Transferring your diploma to a university college and getting it recognized in one of their degree programs is propably the best advice. Just my 2 cents.


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## Zoomie

The only fixed wing, multi-engine Airforce squadron that would possibly accept reservist pilots off the street is 402 Sqn in Winnipeg, flying the Dash-8.  Like my esteemed colleage Mr Inch has said, the only non-RegF transfer that I know about was this fella with 8k+ hours, including time on the Dash-8.  With 300 hours on non-turbine aircraft, you may possess a slight advantage when it comes to flying the Slingsby at Primary Flight Training (RegF stream), but I highly doubt a Reserve contract will be coming your way.  

The only direct reserve entry plan that I know about is HELICOP - you must already possess your Commercial Helicopters license and have 300+ hours TT - the reserve squadrons in Edmonton, Borden or Montreal would then train you on their leased Bell Jet-Ranger and eventually you would move on to the Griffon.  Your MOSID would be restricted to only flying as a TacHel pilot, you would not be able to transfer to any other aircraft once in.


----------



## Tracker

CEOTP is closed, but CFCCEP might be an option.


----------



## Love793

Bograt said:
			
		

> Love,
> 
> You're a young fellow. Whats a year? Transferring your diploma to a university college and getting it recognized in one of their degree programs is propably the best advice. Just my 2 cents.



Doesn't apply to me.  I'm quite happy as lowly NCM.


----------



## Love793

Tracker said:
			
		

> CEOTP is closed, but CFCCEP might be an option.



That's the program I was thinking of. Tee Hee Hee ;D


----------



## mbhabfan

is the CFCCEP open right now?


----------



## Bograt

This is what I scratched together....

http://forces.versus.com/html/air_force/careers/career_profiles/pilot.html

Community College Entry Plan (CCEP) â â€œ This program is currently closed. Graduates of the Aviation Technology Diploma programs at the colleges identified under the Canadian Forces Community College Entry Program (CFCCEP) are encouraged to consider applying under the Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP).

Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) â â€œ While a degreed Officer corps is unequivocally the goal of the Canadian Forces, this interim entry plan has been established to meet any production shortfalls. This entry plan will only be used if and when entry quotas cannot be first filled with applicants possessing a Baccalaureate degree. 

If you are accepted under this plan, you will be required to sign a Statement of Understanding (SOU) indicating your obligation to obtain a Baccalaureate degree, or make satisfactory progress towards this accomplishment, before the end of your initial engagement. *This entry plan may open or close periodically, or have quotas assigned, so frequent contact with your local Recruiting Centre is recommended.*


----------



## pilot_hopeful

Hey guys, I have a couple questions. I have been searching old threads and can't find the information I am looking for, so im posting a new topic.

I have wanted to be a pilot since I was about 13. After reading the threads i just have a few questions I would like some 1st hand input on.  

I believe i have 3 options, please I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

1) RMC, this would be for 2006. If I can get in, what are the chances of being accepted for flight training? Flying is the be all and end all for me. 

2) I could DEO in 4 years, are chances of flight training better as a deo applicant?

3) Say I get accepted for flight training, which I believe I can, and accel.  What happens to applicants who wash out of flight training? are they given the chance to repeat? or are they remustered into technicians/other roles? I really don't see this being a concern, but i would like some information. 

3) on the US naval academy's website, it says they can take up to 60 foreign applicants a year.
   has anyone done this/ know anyone who has done this. My dad and step-mom live in the US, I don't see the citizenship thing being an issue. Even though I have only Canadian Citizenship. 

What do you think?

Rich


----------



## dardt

Rich,

I'll try to give you a few answers.

For RMC you apply for specific careers (ie : pilot) just like DEO. Whether you go RMC or DEO once accepted you are in. The differences will lie in the sequence of your training because you will have to fit in 4 years of university with RMC. You can get the details of the training sequence from your recruiter (I believe for RMC you do part of your basic training just before you start at RMC). Whether it's RMC or DEO you will still have to meet all the application requirements (get the required scores on the CFAT, pass the medical, eye exam for pilot 20/20 uncorrected, job interview and the aircrew selection course). So if you feel you have the leadership experience, aptitudes now then go for RMC. If you don't get accepted you could always apply for DEO after you have your degree (and build more experience to make you more competitive). 
If you wash out of flight training you will most likely be transferred to another occupation. What that occupation is will depend heavily on which trades are high in demand at the time. I'm sure you can influence the decision somewhat, as long as the trade you want has openings and you're qualified.
Can't help you with the US Navy question, sorry. Try their website, maybe you can send questions through their recruiting site to a recruiter.

Go into your local recruiting office as soon as you can. They will be able to answer a lot of your questions.


----------



## graves

This isn't a debate over ethics, morals or policy or an invitation to pre-judgments concerning my self, or situation.   I assure you I've read every possible thread pertaining to this subject in Army.ca, but I just wanted to clarify *one* thing specifically regarding the Air Force's official stance: Does _ANY_ Hallucinogen use in ones past immediately disqualify you're eligibility for becoming a pilot, or is it screened on an individual basis?

If this subject specifically has been discussed before, I apologize. Thanks.


----------



## Armageddon

It is my understanding, and anyone that knows otherwise they can correct me, that it does disqualify you from going pilot even once.  I studied chemistry in university and I will spare you the long names and in depth definitions but basically the military is concerned over this because the active ingredient in hallucinogens manage to find their way into your bodies stored fat.  As a result they can and possibly will reappear at the most random of times and this is a potential liability if you are in an expensive piece of equipment if you happen to have a flashback.  Like I said, this is from my present understanding on the policy but I might be flawed.


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

Hey all

I know that all the ROTP apps are at Borden going through processing....from what i've gathered, Air crew applicants do CFASC on a rolling basis (correct me if im wrong) in april/may....have any air crew apps for ROTP heard back from borden yet?

Thx


----------



## Paish

FSGT Lampkin said:
			
		

> Hey all
> 
> I know that all the ROTP apps are at Borden going through processing....from what i've gathered, Air crew applicants do CFASC on a rolling basis (correct me if im wrong) in april/may....have any air crew apps for ROTP heard back from borden yet?
> 
> Thx



Question, how do we hear back from borden on if we passed our medical?


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

If you passed your medical at your recruiting center (the basic check up) and the 2 eye tests then you should be good.....as far as i know we wont find out until the actual selection late april


----------



## I_Drive_Planes

I haven't heard anything yet, but I'm waiting anxiously!


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

Hi All

Im just wondering if anyone did glider in Air cadets and if it helped them out with CAPSS

Thx


----------



## ROTP Applicant

Not really, because glider is all VFR while the CAPSS is all instruments.


----------



## Torlyn

3 of the ROTP'ers on my course with Air Cadet Gliding experience failed the pilot section of the ASC.

T


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

thats what i was expecting  :-\......well time to whip out the ol' MS flight simulator lol 8)


----------



## I_Drive_Planes

The CFRC called me today and said that I had a choice of three dates for ASC, April 11-15, 18-22, or 25-29, plus an additional day in Vancouver to speak with a Military Career Counselor.  I told them that any of the dates will work for me, so Borden will book me into a course, and they will get a hold of me from there.

Would anyone be able to tell me what the interview with the MCC is all about, the LS who called me today didn't really know, all he said is that it was "just a formality" and that the MCC would be asking me "pilot questions".  Does anyone have any further details on this?

Also another question, and this may sound silly(I have done a search, but to no avail), but what is proper attire for the MCC interview, and for ASC? 

Thanks in advance,

Planes


----------



## NiTz

In my view, you should wear a shirt and a tie at least. If you have a suit, wear it! It's a very important time of your life and I suggest you dress consequently. Dress as clean as you can!


Just my 2 cents, i'm not even in yet!


Cheers! And good luck!


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

Yeah i agree with NiTz....shirt and tie would be the best bet.....not to show offy (if thats a word) but still smart enough.....


----------



## I_Drive_Planes

I don't think that a shirt and tie is necessary for the interview, I spoke with the LS again today and he said it was more of a briefing about ASC, but I'll dress nicer than my usual jeans and T-shirt anyway.  I'm going to be at ASC from April 18 to 22, anyone else have those dates?


----------



## april

Does anyone know if there is a maximum quota for how many people can pass per course of aircrew selection?  Also, I've heard that boards sit the last week of April.  CFRC told me that sometimes you can be given an offer even if your results aren't back from ASC yet. Is this common?


----------



## kincanucks

april said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there is a maximum quota for how many people can pass per course of aircrew selection?   Also, I've heard that boards sit the last week of April.   CFRC told me that sometimes you can be given an offer even if your results aren't back from ASC yet. Is this common?



There is no quota.
Selection boards are 20/21 Apr 05 with results after 30 Apr 05.
They may tell you have been selected but they won't give you an offer until they have the ASC results.


----------



## I_Drive_Planes

Thats good to know, Thanks Kincanucks!

Planes


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Selection boards are 20/21 Apr 05 with results after 30 Apr 05.



Is this for DEO as well?  If not, do you know when the next board might be sitting for DEO-Pilot?  ;D

Thanks in advance ...


----------



## kincanucks

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> Is this for DEO as well?   If not, do you know when the next board might be sitting for DEO-Pilot?   ;D
> 
> Thanks in advance ...



The next board is 13-17 Jun 05 with files to be in Borden by 12 May 05.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Muchos Gracias, kincanucks!

Will have to find something to take up my time until then ... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Cheers


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

Hi everyone

Im an ROTP pilot applicant

I heard/read/got some wierd idea in my head, that pilots on ROTP must go to RMC....not that it would bother me one way or the onther, id just like for someone to either dismiss or confirm this "rumour"

thanks


----------



## Big Foot

Completely wrong. I know a few ROTP civvy U guys who are going to be pilots and are not here at RMC.


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

Thanks alot for the input


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

[i posted this under "Air Force"...sorry for the repeat]

So i got accepted for ROTP at RMC campus....however, not for either of my 1st or 2nd choices (pilot and air nav...i guess they are kinad one in the the same selection wise).....i did get CELE(air) but am still trying to figure out if there is any way of getting pilot at some point.....

1) a brother of a friend of mine got in for ATC a couple years ago but then got pilot because many ppl failed CFACS....is this common?
2) has this happened to anyone in the past and has is it advisable to do the 4 years rmc...4 years CELE and then reapply?
3)or.....is it better to go civy U and try as DEO...


i pasted all my eyes/medical etc and from what i understand we are short on pilots  so its kinda puzzling....maybe they dont want a back log

anyways, some info would be great, thanks.


----------



## kincanucks

Why did you put the other choices down if you are having second thoughts now?   Not everyone gets what they want however, if all you wanted was pilot then that is all you should have asked for.   Turn down the offer and go to Civ U and reapply.

Note: you were suppose to pass all your tests not _paste _ them.


----------



## ROTP Applicant

FSGT Lampkin, I was in the same situation as you last year. I applied for a Pilot position, however I got into RMC and got a position as a MARE (which wasn't even one of my choices!!). Nevertheless, I rejected the offer, went to Civi U this year, reapplied, passed ACS and got an offer for a pilot position. So I honestly recommend that you would do the same, especially if you truly want to be a pilot. Don't take the CELE position away from someone who actually wants it.


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

You know now that i think about it, the initial recruiter that i met said to me "if you want pilot, dont put anything else....cause alot of the time even if you are going to get pilot, they'll give you say infantry if you had that as one of your choices, cause they need them"....then my recruiting officer advised otherwise....eitherway, im not sure that CELE would really be motivation for me to stick out the tougher life and training at RMC if its not something i had my heart set on....

thanks for all your input


----------



## FSGT Lampkin

Kincanucks or ROTP Civi U, if i reapply next year, am i going to have to redo everything all over? incluiding, medical CFAT and my 2 eye tests?

thanks


----------



## Zoomie

Lampkin,

Please remember that when the CFRC offers you a position, they are making a forecast into the future as to what trades they might need.  We need pilots now, not 4-6 years from now.

Did you go to Aircrew Selection in Trenton?  Your results from ACS will be valid for up to 5 years, along with any medicals done at DCIEM (aircrew intensive medicals only).


----------



## kincanucks

FSGT Lampkin said:
			
		

> Kincanucks or ROTP Civi U, if i reapply next year, am i going to have to redo everything all over? incluiding, medical CFAT and my 2 eye tests?
> 
> thanks



CFAT- no
Pt test - yes if after six months
Medical - yes if after one year
ERC - yes if after six months.
Interview - normally just an update but may be a full interview if it is has been more than six months.

Thanks to ROTP Civ U for his valuable input.


----------



## Dumpy

Hello....(yay my first post)

i hear that alot of people get rejected for RMC as pilots...can anyone conifirm this? i was thinking of applying next year, but i was wondering if its better to go to usiversity for a bit and then apply as some people seem to have better luck with this... is there like a limit on the number of RMC pilots that they take? and if so, is DEO a better choice?

Dumpy


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Dumpy, 

Welcome to army.ca! 

I must ask though; have you searched through the previous posts? There are numerous threads related to your question. There are some individuals who will become invaluable to your research but they prefer that you complete the initial leg work before opening a new post on a related subject. I am not trying to discourage you at all but your question may have already been answered.

Each application the Recruiters receive for ROTP as a Pilot must be unique and I would not base my decision on statistics if I were you. I am sure numerous individuals have been rejected when applying for ROTP as a pilot however, they could have been rejected for any number of reasons of which may not pertain to your particular situation. If you received replies to this post stating that a certain percentage are rejected annually, would that stop you? What have you got to lose?

Keep in mind that having a degree is NOT a ticket to sitting in a CF cockpit so you may be limiting youself by not applying to ROTP. I am not speaking on behalf of the CF but you need more than a degree to be accepted as a Pilot.

An example of an individual who had previously applied for ROTP and was offered an alternate position in place of his desired Pilot occupation is contained in this post:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30407.0.html

He later re-applied and was accepted as a Pilot in ROTP.

I say apply to ROTP, provided you meet the requirements. Just don't put down that you are going to "Usiversity" though in your application. 

Good Luck!


----------



## swanita

I agree, what's the worst they can say right now? ....no, right. If they do then just reapply another time too.


----------



## Ranger12

Hello im 16 years old i droped out of school grade 10 but im going back to redo grade 10 and go from there.. Im going to go to RMC and try to become a CF-18 Pilot. Im just wondering if i still have a chance with that on the record? How hard is it go get to a CF-18 Pilot? I still have couple years is it going to be more easy in couple years with the "new aircraft" coming in lol if that ever happens? or should i just go infantry


----------



## Infanteer

Why don't you get through highschool before worrying about being a pilot.  Make sure you stufy your sciences (physics, chem, math).

If your career as Top Gun doesn't work out, you should have no problem getting dirty with us guys who are just in the infantry - especially considering your email address says you are an Airborne Ranger already....


----------



## aesop081

Infanteer said:
			
		

> If your career as Top Gun doesn't work out, you should have no problem getting dirty with us guys who are just in the infantry - especially considering your email address says you are an Airborne Ranger already....



wow...that was funny !!


----------



## Astrodog

Howdy everybody!

  After doing a thorough scan of much of the info relating to pilots etc I figured I'd join and ask anybody 'in the know's opinion about my situation. I have an absolute passion for military aviation! That being said I am currently at a position in my life where I'd like to take some steps towards my goal of becoming a military aviator (of any type.. they could stick me on Cf-18s or Griffons and I'd be as happy as a pig in... well you know). I am currently coming off a 2yr hiatus from school, took it off to finish playing my Jr. Hockey career... I am now 21 and going into my first year this fall at one of canada's "better" civy U's... I am also playing on the hockey team there... Now I am going to be working towards a degree in physics most likely... I've read all over the air force website that they are accepting apps for people 'working towards a degree'... is that only in terms of those appyling for ROTP? I'd love to get my foot in the door in terms of grabbing a pilot slot! I'm in excellent shape, intelligent and enjoy challenges.. what are my realistic options? Plan on going into the recruiting center monday morning.... any info would be appreciated!!


----------



## kincanucks

Astrodog said:
			
		

> Howdy everybody!
> 
> After doing a thorough scan of much of the info relating to pilots etc I figured I'd join and ask anybody 'in the know's opinion about my situation. I have an absolute passion for military aviation! That being said I am currently at a position in my life where I'd like to take some steps towards my goal of becoming a military aviator (of any type.. they could stick me on Cf-18s or Griffons and I'd be as happy as a pig in... well you know). I am currently coming off a 2yr hiatus from school, took it off to finish playing my Jr. Hockey career... I am now 21 and going into my first year this fall at one of canada's "better" civy U's... I am also playing on the hockey team there... Now I am going to be working towards a degree in physics most likely... I've read all over the air force website that they are accepting apps for people 'working towards a degree'... is that only in terms of those appyling for ROTP? I'd love to get my foot in the door in terms of grabbing a pilot slot! I'm in excellent shape, intelligent and enjoy challenges.. what are my realistic options? Plan on going into the recruiting center monday morning.... any info would be appreciated!!



When you see the recruiter on Monday tell him/her that you are interested in the ROTP/Undergrad entry plan and would like to be a pilot.  If all goes well you can be enrolled and receiving subsidization for university in Sept 2006.  Selection will depend a lot on your high school marks and your first year of university marks.


----------



## Astrodog

Thanks for the info fellas... now could anybody add info or point to a link about what basic officer training is comprised of??


----------



## kincanucks

www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca


----------



## Astrodog

anybody have any personal accounts/tales?

  sorry bout all the Qs, I'm just trying to gather as much info as i can from a non-recruiter perspective...


----------



## Bo

Hey Astrodog,

To make a long story short, I finished school 2 years ago (worked in software industry since then), applied for pilot in the CF 7 months ago, and will be going to St.Jean Sept 12. I'm 24.

To increase your chances of getting in, I'd say keep those grades up, get Microsoft Flight Simulator, learn as much as you can about the CF (you've already discovered this forum, good stuff), and just be patient and calm during the whole process. Having a physics backround should be useful. As Kincanucks said, use the search and you'll find all your answers.


----------



## Meesh

Hello,

I have a question regarding the educational requirements for DEO applicants (specifically DEO Pilot). I know they need an undergraduate degree, but is there any specific GPA requirements or cutoff GPA?

I recently completed a B.Eng (Aerospace Engineering) and have a 6.8 (C+) cumulative GPA, and a 7.8 (B-) during my last two years of study. Also, throughout highschool I consistently got 80s and 90s in all my courses.

I've already tried the Search function and checked the Recruiting FAQ but wasn't able to find anything regarding DEO Pilot GPA requirements. If someone could offer any insight on this it would be appreciated. 

Thank you!


----------



## ZxExN

I'm also interested to know how the CF looks at GPA for DEO Pilot Candidates. I graduated university with 60% but did relatively well on my CFAT (2nd highest mark). (Waiting now for security check) There was many reasons why my GPA is so low, but mostly because I went to university not really being motivated by any one field. My highschool marks were always over 85 and many are 95+. Not making any excuses for myself but I am fairly confident in my abilities but I am afraid that the selection board will think I'm a complete moron when looking at my GPA and disregard my file completely. BTW I was told my P3 file was a 5/5. Relatively speaking, how easy is it to obtain a 5/5 file?


----------



## dearryan

Welcome to the forums Meesh,

I don't know if there is a GPA requirement for pilot, but your tanscripts are reviewed  for job competitiveness from what I'm told. Those grades sound pretty good, but the degree in that Field sounds even better. It is encouraging to hear that the CF is attracting some highly educated applicants. Good luck with your enrolment, and welcome to the forums.


----------



## kincanucks

Your GPA is considered during the suitability process and a score is assigned to you for having a degree and for what your average was.  So the higher your average the higher a score you get and the higher your score the more competitive you are.

I made a post a long time ago that said just because you have the basic requirements that doesn't mean you have a job.


----------



## Cloud Cover

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Your GPA is considered during the suitability process and a score is assigned to you for having a degree and for what your average was.   So the higher your average the higher a score you get and the higher your score the more competitive you are.
> 
> I made a post a long time ago that said just because you have the basic requirements that doesn't mean you have a job.



Thats a good point, but here is a question- some post grad studies and most professional studies do not evaluate on the basis of a GPA model. It could be, for example, a ranking relative to the class performance. So for example, a person with a 75% average could actually be within the top 10% of a class of 150 or so. So I guess my question is- if a score is based on average, but the "average" is low by design, how is the score tabulated- or is that just way too complicated to determine?   

Cheers


----------



## kincanucks

There is a table and there is a score assigned to grade bands such as 60-65% or C = X.


----------



## boots

How much is each letter grade worth on this table? I have just under a C+ and would take some courses to improve that but I have SO many courses already because I went after two degrees, and each new one affects my GPA so little that it doesn't seem worth it.


----------



## kincanucks

cuteboots said:
			
		

> How much is each letter grade worth on this table? I have just under a C+ and would take some courses to improve that but I have SO many courses already because I went after two degrees, and each new one affects my GPA so little that it doesn't seem worth it.



The higher your average then the higher the score assigned.


----------



## boots

Ok but what are the numbers involved? I have something like 2.24 on a 4 point scale, and my university considers 2.3 a C+. Depending on how the CF interprets the numbers, it may or may not be worth it to take more classes to gain that extra 0.06. (classes are expensive!!!)


----------



## kincanucks

For a DEO applicant the total score that is available for education as a component of the cognitive ability score is 15 with 4.5 to 7.5 starting at an undergrad 3 degree and ending at PhD 3.  In addition, there is another 7.5 points available for overall academic achievement with 0.5 to 7.5 starting at 0-44% and ending at 97-100% (A+).  There is no consdieration given to class size or institution attended.  Also for cognitive ability you can be assigned up to 15 points for your CFAT score.  The difference between a C+and a B- is 0.5 points.


----------



## cda84

Just a note on this, I was under the impression that your CFAT scores are not discussed. How did ZxExn know he was second highest? Im suprised they told you this.

Another note, as was told to me by a recruiter, was obviously, your GPA scores are only as good as who your competition is. Just depends what kind of grades the other applicants have.

Chris


----------



## steven18

hi! i'm presently in the naval reserve as an nci op and i got one of the best average of all canada student in my QL1(97%) and i made a request for pilot. So i was wondering if i have great chance to be choose even if my highschool average is almost 80%. I'm now studying to the college in natural science and my average si about 75% and i'll begin a mechanical engineering this winter. I'm now waiting for a call to do the basic canadian forces test (medical, physical). I know there are a lot of demand to go at the military college this year and the highschool average to get in is 80%. Is there any one who know if i'm considered as a good candidate if they consider that i have a great shape?

thank you!


----------



## cda84

It really all depends on who you're competing with. Yes a 80% average is definately competitive, but as long as you have lots more on top of that. Im not a recruiter so you probably want to talk to one of them.


----------



## steven18

ok thank you! Yes it's sure if there are a lot of people having an average of 90% with good experience of working and in great shape i have less chances to be chosen.But if i'm not chose this year because of the tough competition with other candidatei could be choose next year right? But i'm gonna talk to a recuiter to know more about my case to place me through the other candidates!


----------



## kincanucks

steven18 said:
			
		

> yeah it's sure lol!..but working in the naval reserve, go to the gym fourth a week and study do you think it's enough to be a good candidate?



Are you talking about applying for DEO or ROTP?


----------



## steven18

ok thanks for your advise cda84...kincanucks for my part i'm talking about rotp! i'd like to go to rmc next year but i was wondering if i was a good candidate to be a pilot as well as rmc


----------



## kincanucks

steven18 said:
			
		

> ok thanks for your advise cda84...kincanucks for my part i'm talking about rotp! i'd like to go to rmc next year but i was wondering if i was a good candidate to be a pilot as well as rmc



Oh I was just a little confuse because this thread is about DEO.  You have a fair chance but I would recommend adding the prep year as a backup and don't forget to apply to Civie U too.  Good Luck.


----------



## steven18

yeah i begin in mechanical engineering this winter at laval university and if i'm accepted to rmc i'll go there next year...but if i'm refused to rmc i don't know if it's sure they'll want me to subsidize me at laval U.


----------



## dougie

I've alway wanted to become a pilot and heard that the air force is always looking for pilots.  I have been reading on this forum and Canadian forces web site on what you need to become a air force pilot for the CF. I know that you need to have a degree to become one but i was wondering if there is anyone that doesn't have a degree and yet they still got in, what they did to get there. Also wondering what the average age for beginner pilots?


----------



## Sf2

yes, you need a degree.  Age is irrelavent.  There were a few in their 40's on my Moose Jaw course.


----------



## dougie

lol alright thanks then i have a while to get a degree


----------



## Guy. E

if your "Smart" enough, you should be able to get in to RMC or get a tuition reimbursement.


----------



## GO!!!

Guy. E said:
			
		

> if your "Smart" enough, you should be able to get in to RMC or get a tuition reimbursement.



By "smart" he means female, visible minority, or french.   

Tuition re-imbursement does'nt even come close to covering the bills either.


----------



## ps387

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know someone will, but I belive you can go for pilot without a degree under the (CEOTP) Continuing Education Officer Training Program (which there is a ton of info about on this site). The recruiting gal I was speaking with yesterday mentioned it to me and said there are openings.

Cheers


----------



## 23007

I didn't realize that CEOTP was still open. But thats good if it is.

I have to say, I think its really funny when recruiters are saying that the Air Force is looking for pilots cause they are low on numbers when there are about 200 untrained pilots in the system waiting for our wings.


----------



## Inch

23007 said:
			
		

> I didn't realize that CEOTP was still open. But thats good if it is.
> 
> I have to say, I think its really funny when recruiters are saying that the Air Force is looking for pilots cause they are low on numbers when there are about 200 untrained pilots in the system waiting for our wings.



If you think the waiting is going to stop when you get your wings, you're in for a big surprise. MH you'll be waiting for 6 months to a year for the OTU, and then once you're finished, the only way you'll get any flying time is to go to sea. The Griffon community probably flys the most out of any community in the CF, with the instructors in Moose Jaw not far behind. 

Having said that, I wouldn't trade my job for anything in the world.

One more note on CEOTP, it's not that you don't require a degree, it's that you don't require one up front. You still have to get one within your 9 year Short Service Engagement.


----------



## 23007

Inch said:
			
		

> If you think the waiting is going to stop when you get your wings, you're in for a big surprise. MH you'll be waiting for 6 months to a year for the OTU, and then once you're finished, the only way you'll get any flying time is to go to sea. The Griffon community probably flys the most out of any community in the CF, with the instructors in Moose Jaw not far behind.
> 
> Having said that, I wouldn't trade my job for anything in the world.



I`m fully aware of that. The good thing is that I want TacHel anyways so hopefully that wait for me won`t be too bad after wings. Besides if the wait is no more than a year then its just gravy compared to this 19 month wait.

Inch, are you eastcoast or westcoast?


----------



## Inch

23007 said:
			
		

> I`m fully aware of that. The good thing is that I want TacHel anyways so hopefully that wait for me won`t be too bad after wings. Besides if the wait is no more than a year then its just gravy compared to this 19 month wait.
> 
> Inch, are you eastcoast or westcoast?



I waited 20 months for Moose Jaw, I feel your pain.

Eastcoast.


----------



## Guy. E

i cant fly CF, i have glasses  :'(

thats why i want to fix them  >


----------



## boots

Inch said:
			
		

> I waited 20 months for Moose Jaw, I feel your pain.
> 
> Eastcoast.


20 months from the application, or after basic training...?
What did you do in the meantime?


----------



## Inch

cuteboots said:
			
		

> 20 months from the application, or after basic training...?
> What did you do in the meantime?



20 months after Language school until I started basic flight training in Moose Jaw, I bypassed PFT.

I went to RMC and Queen's to do some courses, did 4 of my OPMEs and worked at 1 Wing HQ for a while.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

20 months, 19 months.... x months. In the case of CEOTP, it is a great opportunity to get some University credits out of the way. In my opinion, I could stand the wait, I think it is worth it. It also gives you an opportunity to soak up the CF culture if you are a newbee.

Dougie, I don't have a degree but I have been working on one on a part time basis. I am going through the CEOTP process right now. Honestly, I think you should select a Degree Program that you are genuinely interested in then research ROTP and CEOTP and head to a Recruiting Centre. Sit down with a recruiter to select an entry plan that suits your background. In my case, the Recruiters were extremely helpful.

Some more background information would help though. For instance:
- Did you graduate high school or are you in high school? 
- What  is or was your average? 
- What sort of courses did you take - Advanced level or Technical? -> you will need Advanced Level
- What are you considering as a major in university? -> don't just take something to become a Pilot. University is demanding. Also, there is a chance that you may have to fall back on your choice.

As Inch mentioned, you will have to earn a Degree, there is no way around it. They will want to see that you have the potential to do so. That being said, you will want to distinguish yourself from the many other applicants. The CF, I am sure, receives many exceptional applications  including those who have Degrees, many hours of flight time, volunteer time and leadership skills. The Degree is but one requirement. (A very important one mind you.)

Don't be persuaded by me; just a suggestion on how to increase your chances of selection. In my case, I spent two years updating high school credits, building University credits, flight time, volunteer time etc. just to have the chance. But, I am just a candidate, not a Pilot so take it for what it is worth. 

As I mentioned, visit your Recruiting Centre and good luck!


----------



## FuturePrivate

About flying CF and vision, could you wear glasses and still join the Reserves?  I thought the restriction applied only to Regular Forces members?  Please correct me if I'm wrong!

FuturePrivate


----------



## D-n-A

FuturePrivate said:
			
		

> About flying CF and vision, could you wear glasses and still join the Reserves?   I thought the restriction applied only to Regular Forces members?   Please correct me if I'm wrong!
> 
> FuturePrivate



The standards for CFAT, Medical and PT are the same, regardless if you are going reserve or reg force. Unless you have 20/20 or better vision(uncorrected) you are a no-go for pilot.


----------



## FuturePrivate

That's rather unfortunate, in my case...but thanks for the correction.

FuturePrivate


----------



## 23007

You also can't join the reserves as a pilot. You must transfer from the Reg Force to the Reserves.


----------



## Inch

23007 said:
			
		

> You also can't join the reserves as a pilot. You must transfer from the Reg Force to the Reserves.



Not true, I personally know of a few pilots that joined straight into the reserves as a pilot without ever going to Moose Jaw or having been a RegF pilot. One guy was an Air Canada Captain on the CRJ, he joined in Winnipeg to fly the Dash 8's, they sent him to Multi school in Portage for an abbreviated course on military flying and gave him his wings. Now, he can't transfer to the RegF, if he does, he'll be required to go to Moose Jaw and complete the training just like every other RegF pilot.

There's also a program for Griffons called helicop or something like that, they take Commercial helo pilots, they get trained on the Jet Ranger, get their wings and then fly Griffons, again, they cannot move to a different community nor can they transfer to RegF without going to Moose Jaw and completing pilot training as per everyone else.

Medical standards are still the same for both.


----------



## slyco

CEOTP is opened for pilots right now.  Inquire with a Recruiting centre, or online thru E-recruiting.


----------



## Army_Gal101

I too would love to join the air forces!! ...my uncle is a aircraft trafiic controller in the airport tower. so i'm gonna see what I can do.


----------



## CougarKing

Inch said:
			
		

> The air reserve doesn't work the same way as the army reserve, one evening a week and one weekend a month kind of thing.
> 
> Cheers



Alright, correct me if I'm wrong, but how was it that General Richard Rohmer- Canada's most decorated military veteran, was still able to find time to be in the Air Reserve and still be a lawyer and avid novelist at that! He did fly Mustangs in World War II, though I'm not sure how he could have flown in the Air Reserve years after the war and juggle that with law studies and his writing. Well he was able to make Major General, as the ff. article states:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rohmer

To the mods, please don't post this in a new thread- I thought this was the best place to put it.


----------



## mdh

> Alright, correct me if I'm wrong, but how was it that General Richard Rohmer- Canada's most decorated military veteran, was still able to find time to be in the Air Reserve and still be a lawyer and avid novelist at that! He did fly Mustangs in World War II, though I'm not sure how he could have flown in the Air Reserve years after the war and juggle that with law studies and his writing. Well he was able to make Major General, as the ff. article states:



Because the Air Reserve has changed dramatically since General Rohmer was a member. I'll let my air force bretheren provide more detail but the Air Reserve used to be a much larger organization than it is today. (At one time the RCAF operated Mustangs out of London as an auxiliary reserve squadron IIRC).  The Air Reserve was also based in Toronto at Downsview for a number of years - no longer. 

Probably most salient points - Rohmer already had his wings and like today's Air Reserve the majority of its members are former regular force.  There are very few pilots today who are recruited as reservists. There might be some rotary seats available for those who possess a commercial helicopter license and an instrument rating - but even then it's rare. Try using the search function for more information on this topic.

(I do recall a couple of articles profiling one reservist who was a Snowbird pilot and another who flew Griffons out of Borden - just for an FYI  )

cheers, mdh


----------



## munky99999

Well I filled in the online application and i need to go bring in my information and such. Which im doing soon. The only problem is that i cant exactly get a transcript to prove ive completed high school education. I cant possibly tell how long it takes me to do the 2.4 km run, but i go for jogs every other day with the dog so i should be in rather fine shape. I'm 6'5" 170lbs so im in good fitness. Except upper body. I can just do the 20 pushups, no idea if they are proper or not. I can do well beyond enough situps without even bothering me. I should be able to get through the medical exam no trouble. Except i have mild asthma. I dont even need to take a puffer for it.

the competancy test should be fine. In grade 12 i took chemisty-calculus-geometry-physics and IQ tests show roughly 140-145. I got perfect on http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/ppc/gct2_test_e.htm this test. Though its kinda odd. The definitions dont really prove competancy. It only proves if you've seen the word and know the defintion. Which i never learnt in school; I learnt them on my own from reading.
http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/howtojoin/aptitude_test_e.aspx?bhcp=1 these questions were a breeze.

I just find this kinda odd. the physical tests shouldnt be so strict. They should accept anyone who can medically get into shape. Then have basic training get you into the fitness they want you in.

Also assuming that i do get in and all. Do you get the choice to which kind of planes you learn and fly? If you do and choose say cargo planes. later can you switch over to fighter pilot?

and, do they require transcript for education?

addition/ I also dont have any bachelors degree. i know there are some of the jobs which require officers to have a BA. but the pilot-regular officer didnt say anything about a BA.


----------



## dardt

munky99999 said:
			
		

> I just find this kinda odd. the physical tests shouldn't be so strict. They should accept anyone who can medically get into shape. Then have basic training get you into the fitness they want you in.



I would recommend talking to a recruiter and a trip to your local CFRC before doing all this (I assume you haven't done this based on your post), especially if you don't have confirmation that you meet the basic requirements. Start searching, most if not all of your questions have been answered here on army.ca.
Oh and reference your physical test comment, there isn't enough time in basic to get you into shape. Everyone coming in must have a certain baseline of physical fitness. Otherwise the staff would never be able to teach you anything, they would have to hump you around on their back all day because you couldn't keep up. Good luck with your application.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> I just find this kinda odd. the physical tests shouldnt be so strict. They should accept anyone who can medically get into shape. Then have basic training get you into the fitness they want you in.


They are NOT that demanding. A little work and the basic PT requirements will seem like nothing; trust me. Just as an example, I used to HATE running. I was always above the minimum in situps, pushups but I couldn't run more than a K without suffocating a year ago and taking one week off because of the pain. Now I run  between 5-10+ K several times a week and look forward to doing them. 

Just some advice - use the training forum mainly Paracowboy's thread "shin splints, blisters and PT". 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33109.0.html

Be careful - don't kill yourself trying to get up to standards but work at it. I have a buddy who has a ankle that is really swollen (stress fracture) and another buddy who has the knee of an 80 year old - both because they went at it too hard.



> Also assuming that i do get in and all. Do you get the choice to which kind of planes you learn and fly? If you do and choose say cargo planes. later can you switch over to fighter pilot?



Click here -> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/43023.0.html



> and, do they require transcript for education?


Yes. 



> addition/ I also don't have any bachelors degree. i know there are some of the jobs which require officers to have a BA. but the pilot-regular officer didnt say anything about a BA.


As a pilot, you will need to either have a degree or earn one eventually. Apply under either ROTP or CEOTP if you don't already have a degree. 

Good luck.


----------



## munky99999

went to recruiter today and got the security and consent form. but nothing else really happened yet because i dont have a transcript. which i pick up on tuesday.

I dont like the 3 people for references. I really dont know that many people. I guess i'll use my neighbour and 2 other people who have know be for 5+ years. But even then. They probably dont know me that much. The people who do know me. Arent considered adults or not someone i'd want talking to anyone about me.

I never ever have done drugs. I very rarely drink. I never do anything illegal. I am very reliable and a good worker. Just not that social.



> especially if you don't have confirmation that you meet the basic requirements.


I went to the recruiter and he never really did anything like this. Then again if you saw me. You'd expect i grew up in a military family or are already am. Ive been getting a brushcut(#1 clip) for the last ten years at least. Im clean shaven. etc. As far as i can tell. I do satisfy the requirements.

I expect the only things to change by joining the military is I start saluting and wear a uniform. Basically i do everything else. though i dont know everything. Im just looking to get a degree in math or physics. With a good job waiting for me when im done. Pilot being the best one. As ive played alot of flight simulators. Which are pretty fun. My favourite being Lock-On MAC


----------



## Naralis

munky99999 said:
			
		

> I dont like the 3 people for references. I really dont know that many people. I guess i'll use my neighbour and 2 other people who have know be for 5+ years. But even then. They probably dont know me that much. The people who do know me. Arent considered adults or not someone i'd want talking to anyone about me.



In the CF you'll need to learn to suck the bullshit up sometimes. Complaining does nothing good when it's not constructive. Don't like it? Too bad. What would you recommend instead?

Good luck in becoming a pilot.


----------



## munky99999

Naralis said:
			
		

> In the CF you'll need to learn to suck the bullshit up sometimes. Complaining does nothing good when it's not constructive. Don't like it? Too bad. What would you recommend instead?
> 
> Good luck in becoming a pilot.


No recommendation. Should stay the same. Its a good idea. Its just for my situation its kinda bad. The people who I'll use as a reference wont really know me beyond knowing that I'm a good guy. Not really complaining, was just saying that in my place its not really effective.

Also i forgot to mention.
I'm more interested in Multi-engine rather then jet. I'm not interested in helicopters. But say i get into multi-engine. Would this be the good place to be if I wanted to become a bombardier? For example if the airforce were to get a F-117, b-2, or something newer? I might also be interested in doing the f-35 JSF. In the current selection of planes. I'd choose flying the Hercules class. But when newer planes come out. I might wanna go to one of those. Is that possible?


----------



## dardt

munky99999 said:
			
		

> I expect the only things to change by joining the military is I start saluting and wear a uniform. Basically i do everything else. though i don't know everything. I'm just looking to get a degree in math or physics. With a good job waiting for me when I'm done. Pilot being the best one. As I've played alot of flight simulators. Which are pretty fun. My favourite being Lock-On MAC



 :rofl:

Just a tip, don't tell your staff that when you get to St-Jean.

Maybe they should just send you directly to Moose Jaw for Basic Flight training.  ;D

Seriously though, good luck with your application.


----------



## munky99999

well thanks. Hope i can make it there. I definately wont be talking much when im there. If i do make it to basic training. I think it will be fine from then on. My cousin just graduated out of basic training(st.jean i think) and he loves it, though hes just went for infantry.

Only thing that will make me very very nervous. When i land. Sure i can do it reliably on simulators. But a simulator is a farcry from reality. Plus if i crash its my butt and not a sim pilot. Actually make that low-altitude flying, I'd be pretty nervous at least the first time. This is normal right? ???


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> I dont like the 3 people for references. I really dont know that many people. I guess i'll use my neighbour and 2 other people who have know be for 5+ years. But even then. They probably dont know me that much. The people who do know me. Arent considered adults or not someone i'd want talking to anyone about me


*sigh* : First the fitness requirements, now the references. 

What about teachers? Coaches? Did you work in high school? Maybe your supervisor can fill it out? Did you do volunteer work while in high school? etc.



			
				munky99999 said:
			
		

> Only thing that will make me very very nervous. When i land. Sure i can do it reliably on simulators. But a simulator is a farcry from reality. Plus if i crash its my butt and not a sim pilot. Actually make that low-altitude flying, I'd be pretty nervous at least the first time. This is normal right? ???



If you want to experience flying first hand, scrounge up $50 or ask Mom or Dad to buy you an intro flight at a flying club. You will experience what turning, climbing, descending and ground rush is all about. They may even let you grab the controls. If you're in the Ottawa area, I will take you up.  >  

PS- Yor sentencisses. Are. hard toread. 

Seriously though - good luck.


----------



## munky99999

> What about teachers? Coaches? Did you work in high school? Maybe your supervisor can fill it out? Did you do volunteer work while in high school? etc.


no teachers left from when 5 years ago oddly. the rest are roughly 4 years or less. Even then. its been 4 years since teaching me. They probably don't remember me. Same thing goes for my jobs. they all start 4 years ago. my volunteer hours was with/for a relative.



> If you want to experience flying first hand, scrounge up $50 or ask Mom or Dad to buy you an intro flight at a flying club. You will experience what turning, climbing, descending and ground rush is all about. They may even let you grab the controls. If you're in the Ottawa area, I will take you up.


Ive been in planes and such before. Infact i think the one plane was a tutor once. I even went for one day with this EAA-Young Eagle thing years ago. Went up in a crap-duster. I know what most of that stuff feels like. and landing isn't a problem for me. Its when its ME landing or flying low. Id get nervous. I guess its just no confidence in myself. But then again i usually base my confidence off past experience. First times are always making me nervous, for most things. Low-altitude flying would freak me out. Say your real low. Like 50 metres high or whatever. a bird flies out in front of you. Hits in the engine. it will definitely take no time at all before you go to the ground. There is that one video of a plane who crashes after a bird hits. I know the chances are pretty damn slim. But the lower you fly the greater the chance. Plus it probably doesn't have to be a bird. Could be a lot of different things.

loll. I use to many periods? well blame my terrible English teacher. I would write my essay. Spellcheck would find maybe one fragment or run on sentence. I fix it. But my teacher berated me to use more periods. So i throw them everywhere now. Which pleased him. My summer school teacher definitely didn't. It's sorta habit now.


----------



## Mneumonics

munky99999 said:
			
		

> I dont like the 3 people for references.


3 people? I was under the impression that it was 2 people. I applied DEO infantry in January and I needed only 2 references. Of course I haven't heard back yet, so maybe they are waiting for a third reference.... yikes.


----------



## munky99999

Mneumonics said:
			
		

> 3 people? I was under the impression that it was 2 people. I applied DEO infantry in January and I needed only 2 references. Of course I haven't heard back yet, so maybe they are waiting for a third reference.... yikes.



ya its 3. Ive got the paper right here. I'm not going DOE though so maybe that's why. then again this form doesn't seem to be specific to anything and it has 3 spots for it and the instructions say 3. You probably only needed 2.

Its not that bad really for me. I think i have 3 good reference who know me well enough.


----------



## Mneumonics

munky99999 said:
			
		

> ya its 3. Ive got the paper right here. I'm not going DOE though so maybe that's why. then again this form doesn't seem to be specific to anything and it has 3 spots for it and the instructions say 3. You probably only needed 2.
> 
> Its not that bad really for me. I think i have 3 good reference who know me well enough.


Oh ok, I see. Best of luck to you!


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> Infact i think the one plane was a tutor once


Really!?! A Tutor!?!?! No.

Wouldn't you know if you went up in a Tutor or not !?!


----------



## Enzo

munky99999 said:
			
		

> Its when its ME landing or flying low. Id get nervous. I guess its just no confidence in myself. But then again i usually base my confidence off past experience. First times are always making me nervous, for most things. Low-altitude flying would freak me out. Say your real low. Like 50 metres high or whatever. a bird flies out in front of you. Hits in the engine. it will definitely take no time at all before you go to the ground. There is that one video of a plane who crashes after a bird hits. I know the chances are pretty damn slim. But the lower you fly the greater the chance. Plus it probably doesn't have to be a bird. Could be a lot of different things.



Oh Munk, you're going TacHelo buddy 

Uh, seriously... Do you have a backup plan? ;D


----------



## munky99999

MikeG said:
			
		

> Really!?! A Tutor!?!?! No.
> 
> Wouldn't you know if you went up in a Tutor or not !?!



well this is like 7+ years ago. I couldn't tell you for sure if it was a tutor for sure.



> Oh Munk, you're going TacHelo buddy Wink
> 
> Uh, seriously... Do you have a backup plan? Grin


Canada has attack hellos? just kidding. Really i know ill be nervous. But it will be the first time only. and its not really that big a deal or else i wouldn't be going to be a pilot. To rate the nervous factor. Its about the same of nervous of the first time you drive a car going 120 km/h. You can do it just fine. But your nervous the first time you do it. With a little anxious  ;D

backup plan? parachute instead of land? Just kidding. 

are you telling me. you've never been nervous about something that you know you could do very easily and perfectly well? final exams are like this all the time.


----------



## paracowboy

munky99999,

start using either English or French in your posts. 'msn-speak' is not tolerated for long. Put some effort into your posts, please.

para-mod-boy


----------



## medicineman

munky99999 said:
			
		

> loll. I use to many periods? well blame my terrible English teacher. I would write my essay. Spellcheck would find maybe one fragment or run on sentence. I fix it. But my teacher berated me to use more periods. So i throw them everywhere now. Which pleased him. My summer school teacher definitely didn't. It's sorta habit now.



Seeing as you're likely to have to get a university degree, and as you want to be a pilot and therefore an officer, I'd hunt down a real English teacher and brush up alot.  Officers have to write alot of memos and reports - if you can't even write a simple sentence here, you're going to be spending an awful lot of extra time re-writing everything you submit.  I take it you don't come from a province with standardized government exams for high school?

Have a nice day.

MM


----------



## kincanucks

Mneumonics said:
			
		

> 3 people? I was under the impression that it was 2 people. I applied DEO infantry in January and I needed only 2 references. Of course I haven't heard back yet, so maybe they are waiting for a third reference.... yikes.



The requirement just changed so relax.


----------



## munky99999

> I take it you don't come from a province with standardized government exams for high school?


I passed the Ontario grade 10 literacy test. I have 72% in grade 12 university level English ENG 4U

Let me give you example of my English teacher from grade 10 and 12.

So I show up at class, roughly 5-10 minutes early. The bell rings. We wait another 5-10 minutes. The teacher then shows up. He then does "fun attendance." Which consists of asking a question like "What is your favourite movie and why;" to each and every person in the class. So virtually half the class is over by the time this is done. This teacher was VERY popular but the worst teacher I have ever had. French on the other hand I dropped so I had time to work on my English. Now I'm not fluent in either.

Also while I'm pretty bad; I don't see any problem at all with this post. No fragments or anything.


----------



## Mneumonics

kincanucks said:
			
		

> The requirement just changed so relax.


wow, good to know. Thanks.


----------



## medicineman

munky99999 said:
			
		

> Also while I'm pretty bad; I don't see any problem at all with this post. No fragments or anything.



I'll give you that - keep practicing until it becomes habit, as writing like William Shatner speaks is a quick way to get into someone's bad books, here and in the serivice.  As I mentioned earlier, you'll have to do alot of writing - part of any officer or non-commisioned officer's life is spent writing reports and assessments and a pile of other staff work, not just your actual job.

Cheers.

MM


----------



## Centurian1985

> Also while I'm pretty bad; I don't see any problem at all with this post. No fragments or anything.



Try to remember you only scored 72% in your grade 12 English. 



> Also while I'm pretty bad;


1. Use of the semi-colon is intended to link two closely related clauses (or short sentences).  This does not qualify as an independent clause. 
2. The word 'also' is used in a sentence to indicate 'in addition' to points mentioned in a previous sentence.  There is no previous sentence. 
3. The word 'pretty' is a descriptive term applied to appearance, not ability or perceived morality. 
4. Too many words - just say "I'm bad", which you've proven.   



> I don't see any problem at all with this post.


5. Points 1-4 indicate you are either dont want to see, or cannot interpret, the errors you made. 
6. The word 'any' implies infinite possibilities, in contradiction to 'all' which implies finite possibilities.  Use one or the other, but not both.  
7. Time contradiction - at the time you typed your reply, your reply had not yet been posted, thus the only true statement you have made yet.  You could not have seen a problem with your post because it had not yet been posted.  Unfortunately, your ability to predict the future is negated by your failure to check your reply after you posted it.    
8. Too wordy, again.  Try "I don't see a problem with this post".    



> No fragments or anything.


9. Contradictory implication between 'no' (indicating 'zero' or 'none'), and 'anything' (implying an infinite range of possibilities). 
10. Sentences usually follow the frame 'subject-verb-action' (with many alternative forms).  Yours has a barely perceived subject, no verb, a negation, an inclusion, and a possible second subject.  Oxford Professors of English are rising from their grave as we speak. 

That was fun!       ;D
Word of advice - never claim superior writing skills unless ya got 'im, which I aint got, but aint claimin' to have either!

(PS - went back and fixed a bunch of typos   ;D )


----------



## munky99999

Well the grammar problem you point out is contrary to my grammar lessons from school.
For Example.
_1. Use of the semi-colon is intended to link two closely related clauses (or short sentences).  This does not qualify as an independent clause. _

_5. Points 1-4 indicate you are either don’t want to see, or cannot interpret, the errors you made. _
I'm blessed with talent in math and science. Languages just don’t come to me well. When my teachers haven’t and should have taught such things, I’m not going to know what errors are and what aren’t.

_Word of advice - never claim superior writing skills unless ya got 'im, which I aint got, but aint claimin' to have either!_
I would never claim such a thing neither. My languages education has been terrible. I know I'm no where near proper English.


----------



## Centurian1985

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Word of advice - never claim superior writing skills unless ya got 'im, which I aint got, but aint claimin' to have either!



That part was just an attempt at light humour... 
11. Humor, when imparted, should be at a clearly identified target or clearly directed away from a target, to prevent confusion.


----------



## Matty B.

Je regarde tout simplement, mais avez-vous un dictionnaire d'anglais ou livre de grammaire?

"Languages just don’t come to me well."  ;D Nice quotation... excellent English.  :

I don't want to seem mean, but you should ask more relevant questions regarding the CAF (soyez prudent! because I see you've already received a verbal warning). The people on this site are right... be proficient in at least one official language if you want to be a good officer (or an officer at that). But then again, je ne sais crois.

P.S.: Props if you're an ESL student, but if English is your first and only language... um... yeah...


----------



## munky99999

> Je regarde tout simplement, mais avez-vous un dictionnaire d'anglais ou livre de grammaire?


dictionary.com and a book.


----------



## Touchingthevoid

Greetings monky, it's true that you need to start correcting your gramatical errors. Now with regards to becoming a pilot, I see that you're talking about flying various aircraft in different positions and how you're scared of crashing and what not. Now that's good that you've picked up this interesting field but right now I would concentrate on finishing school with good grades and going through the process. Hopefully all the pieces will fall into place for you and you do become a pilot. You should worry about details (aircraft employement and such) later on in your career, just get there first.

Dyma Khmel


----------



## Matty B.

Excellent points, Touchingthevoid. A pilot should be proficient in math/science AND languages. If you're weak at something, work at it. 

Remember that a large portion of the CF Aptitude Test deals with language use/cognitive thinking. If you can't pass the CFAT... that's it.


----------



## kincanucks

Matty B. said:
			
		

> Excellent points, Touchingthevoid. A pilot should be proficient in math/science AND languages. If you're weak at something, work at it.
> 
> Remember that a large portion of the CF Aptitude Test deals with language use/cognitive thinking. If you can't pass the CFAT... that's it.



and your experience is?


----------



## mikegodfrey

Hey guys, just wanted to know what would be the most effective method of pursuing a career as a pilot. Clearly an education at RMC would be quite helpful, if not mandatory? I've been interested in joining the Army / Air Force for a couple years now, just trying to see where i can fit in, and if it will interest me. 

What are some of the requirements or prerequisites for highschool / college / university courses with regards of being a pilot, and the marks they look at. If anyone who has taken this path could get back to me with some advice, opinions or stories it would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## George Wallace

Can I assume that you haven't bothered to read the rules in the Conduct Guidelines yet, nor thought to do a SEARCH?  In whatever case, here are some things you may find of interest and help you on this site: 



MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Infantry FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977

Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure:
http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

(Perhaps use it to search for requirements to become a Pilot.) 


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


----------



## northbiker

I wanted to be a pilot ever since I was a child. And I have finally decided to join the force and realized that pilots require high academic standings in post secondary education which I don't have. Am I seriously screwed or is there a another way?????????


And do they offer ROTP for Pilot training currently in undergrads??????



(Edited by Moderator to clarify title)


----------



## TCBF

Most small children who want to be pilots don't get as many rude surprises.  There are 13 year old Air Cadets out there who probably have the recruiting specs for pilot memorized cold, and are selecting their high school credits, extra-curicular sports and community activities with further education and selection in mind.

Almost sounds like those guys who cruise through high school and university, then realize they can't live their dream of becoming a brain surgeon because their marks won't even let them get hired as a janitor in Medical School.

Who Knew?


----------



## Magravan

Did you get a degree? If so, apply anyways... If you don't have the degree, then you should still apply... The worst that they can tell you is no, and you'll be in the same boat you are now... They allow a lot of people to put Pilot on their app, simply because those who can't handle it are weeded out in the interview / ACS stage, typically. 

Through Adversity, The Stars...


----------



## bw

Pilot/Air Nav was my dream as well....tubed Aircrew and now working on my third career choice Aerospace controller.  The best bet is to enroll as a CEOTP.  You have to ask for this entry plan when you go to the recruiter as they do not explicitely offer it as an entry choice.  Keep in mind that the number of vacancies for CEOTP are limited for all officer carreers and that you will be at a different pay scale until you graduate from a recongnized University with a degree.  Oh yes,  you have to work towards a degree while you train and you do have a limited time to do so....7  or 9 years depending on the duration of first contract.

Hope this helps.


----------



## IrishCanuck

As previously stated, if you have a degree, then you meet the minimum qualifications. 

Put in your application, and you will see how it goes.


----------



## derael

bw said:
			
		

> Oh yes,  you have to work towards a degree while you train and you do have a limited time to do so....7  or 9 years depending on the duration of first contract.



From what I know most successful CEOTP applicants will now have 13 years to complete a degree. However as I understand it you are not required to stay the full 13. I was informed by the CFRC I'm only required to stay 5 years but all this should be checked over with your recruiter as it probably varies depending your situation and MOC. This info is only based on the offer I received and as with all CF policies, they are subject to change.


----------



## Magravan

bw said:
			
		

> Pilot/Air Nav was my dream as well....tubed Aircrew and now working on my third career choice Aerospace controller.  The best bet is to enroll as a CEOTP.  You have to ask for this entry plan when you go to the recruiter as they do not explicitely offer it as an entry choice.  Keep in mind that the number of vacancies for CEOTP are limited for all officer carreers and that you will be at a different pay scale until you graduate from a recongnized University with a degree.  Oh yes,  you have to work towards a degree while you train and you do have a limited time to do so....7  or 9 years depending on the duration of first contract.
> 
> Hope this helps.



I did the same as you, same choices, but opted to switch AEC for Armoured / Artillery Officer and retest Air Nav... I'll be doing that in January, if I haven't already been called for one of the other two... If I find that I don't like whatever I get, I'll consider retesting Pilot if I can ever get my PPL...


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

- CEOTPs have 9 years to complete university degree
-after occupational training (Wings standard for Pilots) pay is the same regardless of entry plan or education level


----------



## SupersonicMax

Important to mention that the contract is 7 years AFTER WINGS

Max


----------



## old man neri

northbiker:

I have been offered pilot and I can tell you that my post secondary academic standing was certainly not high in any way. I barely passed. During the interview the officer asked me about this. I replied by saying that I had really high high school marks and I was in a tough program in a tough university. That was the end of that question, we moved on. Like others have stated, just apply, you have nothing to lose. Hope this helps

Cheers.


----------



## northbiker

I had failed courses in high school and in post secondary education. But I have somehow managed to pull out a B average in this current semester. Will my last semester marks be considered?. And what about extenuating circumstances do they have any policy about that????


----------



## patrick666

You don't have to become a Pilot immediately. You also have three trade choices on your application so research them and apply for Pilot with some other choices as well. Do some time in the Air Force, improve your academic record and try, try again if you don't succeed the first time around. You'll never know until you try. 

Best of luck.


----------



## old man neri

northbiker said:
			
		

> I had failed courses in high school and in post secondary education. But I have somehow managed to pull out a B average in this current semester. Will my last semester marks be considered?. And what about extenuating circumstances do they have any policy about that????



B average is pretty good in my opinion, I had a C- myself, although my opinion doesn't matter in this case. If you do get an interview, which I am sure you will, just be prepared to answer the question that will inevitably be asked about why you failed a course or two. Put a positive spin on it. "I was a different person back then, I made a mistake and learned from it, that's why my marks have steadily increased since then, I have matured......etc"  Just be prepared for the question, don't make up lames excuses for it and just say you have learned from it. End it with a positive.

Marks are just one of many aspects that will be looked at and considered. My interview was a little short of an hour and a half. We didn't talk about my marks for longer than 3 minutes. There are many threads discussing interviews, read into them and you will see everything else that you should prepare for.

I hope this helps,
Cheers.


----------



## IrishCanuck

B average is definetly nothing to be worried about.. how many classes did you fail at university previously? 

My marks fluctuate between C-B+ , and I'm hoping any isolated low end marks I get (looks like I'm headed for a D in one class) won't be looked down upon too harshly my

the CF or any future employer.. but only time will tell.


----------



## northbiker

I have failed 5 courses up to date and passed around 8 courses with a B average. Can someone reply to this post??????


----------



## kincanucks

northbiker said:
			
		

> I have failed 5 courses up to date and passed around 8 courses with a B average. Can someone reply to this post??????



Your overall average will be taken into consideration and your failures will be discussed.  Do some research on this site.


----------



## old man neri

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Your overall average will be taken into consideration and your failures will be discussed.  Do some research on this site.



X2

Like I previously stated, be prepared to be asked about it and you better have a good, well thought out answer. Marks are but only one of many things the CF looks at. You can not change your past so just try and apply, you have nothing to lose. 

In my personal opinion this is the course of action I suggest you follow:
1) Stop worrying about a past you can not change. Just try to improve your current academic standing.
2) Apply anyways because you have nothing to lose.
3) Read all the interview threads and FAQs on this wonderful forum. Look at the recruiting website as well. Believe it or not you are not the first applicant to have questions and doubts about the interview stage.
4) After reviewing all the aforementioned information in (3) thoroughly prepare yourself for the interview. You should go in there knowing what most of the questions will be and have prepared answers for them.

I sincerely hopes this helps and I wish you nothing but the best of luck to you.

Cheers!


----------



## Magravan

I failed an economics course, and I was asked about it. I answered truthfully, and I'm not sure if it affected my application one way or another.


----------



## old man neri

Magravan said:
			
		

> I failed an economics course, and I was asked about it. I answered truthfully, and I'm not sure if it affected my application one way or another.




If I had to guess, which is exactly what I am about to do, I would guess that how you answer it is more important than what the answer is; that is to say if you make up lames excuses about how it wasn't your fault it will look as if you are immature and perhaps not ready to be and officer. If you own up to it and say you have learned from your mistake, it will show maturity and perhaps a bit of leadership, no? Of course this is just a guess.

Cheers!


----------



## northbiker

old man neri said:
			
		

> If I had to guess, which is exactly what I am about to do, I would guess that how you answer it is more important than what the answer is; that is to say if you make up lames excuses about how it wasn't your fault it will look as if you are immature and perhaps not ready to be and officer. If you own up to it and say you have learned from your mistake, it will show maturity and perhaps a bit of leadership, no? Of course this is just a guess.
> 
> Cheers!



I had some family problems and couldn't get high marks in university. Should I go ahead and tell them that or should I think of another excuse cuz this sounds too lame!!!!


----------



## Magravan

northbiker said:
			
		

> I had some family problems and couldn't get high marks in university. Should I go ahead and tell them that or should I think of another excuse cuz this sounds too lame!!!!



That was precisely my answer. A good follow up is to describe how these same problems will not affect your current interests in the same way. As I said before, tell the truth. A lie you'd have to keep track of on top of the real event... With the truth you'll have a more solid memory to draw from, and it will show.

Just tell them why you weren't able to do it, and why you are able to do it now.


----------



## Magravan

northbiker said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any good suggestions to improve my chances of getting into Pilot trade?



I was told "They'll let almost anyone put it on their application if they can get it in the CFAT"...

Sim time or actual flying experience will be very beneficial to 'getting it'... Pass Aircrew Selection, and you're on your way.


----------



## Kid_X

Actually, becoming a pilot isn't very difficult, it costs a minimum of about 6500$, 10000$ on average for your PPL.  Becoming a military pilot is the difficult part.  I failed pilot qualifications, and my eyes WERE 20/20 all my life, but I don't know if they will be that way for long ( ), so I have to get my PPL anyways, but I am opting to switch to the combat arms during next year's VRs, I have my heart set on Engineer Officer now, if my vision is still up to par once I'm set to renew my contract, and I've gotten my PPL, we'll look at pilot for then, if it is at all possible.  But fill out the application form, it's free, it hardly takes any time, and you'll never know unless you tried.


----------



## northbiker

Kid_X said:
			
		

> Actually, becoming a pilot isn't very difficult, it costs a minimum of about 6500$, 10000$ on average for your PPL.  Becoming a military pilot is the difficult part.  I failed pilot qualifications, and my eyes WERE 20/20 all my life, but I don't know if they will be that way for long ( ), so I have to get my PPL anyways, but I am opting to switch to the combat arms during next year's VRs, I have my heart set on Engineer Officer now, if my vision is still up to par once I'm set to renew my contract, and I've gotten my PPL, we'll look at pilot for then, if it is at all possible.  But fill out the application form, it's free, it hardly takes any time, and you'll never know unless you tried.



For what reason did they reject you for pilot position?????


----------



## Kid_X

They did not say, it's a computer generated score that lets you know if you qualify or not.  They will give you a book to learn the instrument panel of a specific aircraft, and they have a few simulators that you must fly to certain criteria.  All this is done in Trenton during the ASC (Aircrew selection). That will be booked for you once you have applied.


----------



## northbiker

Kid_X said:
			
		

> They did not say, it's a computer generated score that lets you know if you qualify or not.  They will give you a book to learn the instrument panel of a specific aircraft, and they have a few simulators that you must fly to certain criteria.  All this is done in Trenton during the ASC (Aircrew selection). That will be booked for you once you have applied.



And how much time do you get to study those instruments before your test??????


----------



## Kid_X

Weeks, those instruments aren't a problem, it's flying the thing that's the test.


----------



## old man neri

northbiker said:
			
		

> And how much time do you get to study those instruments before your test??????



You get a complete study package explaining everything weeks and weeks ahead of ACS when and if you get booked. It will explain everything you need to know.


----------



## Magravan

Some of us got our package barely a week before the test was to happen... And knowing the book inside and out might prevent you from making a mistake that could mean the difference between passing and failing. Know your stuff, and then know it better. If you don't have your PPL, your chances aren't statistically all that great, so anything that you can do to help yourself beforehand is a good idea.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Personnally, I think this is the opposite.  The test look at your ability to learn, not to fly.  If ones has a PPL and is pretty good at the beginning but as things get more complicated regresses, he will fail.  However, someone that makes mistakes at the first lessons improves over the lessons will pass.  This is the way I understood ACS.

Max


----------



## Magravan

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Personnally, I think this is the opposite.  The test look at your ability to learn, not to fly.  If ones has a PPL and is pretty good at the beginning but as things get more complicated regresses, he will fail.  However, someone that makes mistakes at the first lessons improves over the lessons will pass.  This is the way I understood ACS.
> 
> Max



Statistically (meaning, based on the statistics gathered), those with the PPL are more likely to pass than those with no previous flying experience. Understanding the book inside and out, however, will mean that you're giving yourself the best chance that you have. If you don't have your PPL, you can still pass (a number of people in my group did with no previous flying experience, and one who did have his PPL failed), but if you are able to avoid the little hurdles that will be presented by not knowing precisely how things work in both theory and practice, it will be incredibly helpful...


----------



## northbiker

Magravan said:
			
		

> Some of us got our package barely a week before the test was to happen... And knowing the book inside and out might prevent you from making a mistake that could mean the difference between passing and failing. Know your stuff, and then know it better. If you don't have your PPL, your chances aren't statistically all that great, so anything that you can do to help yourself beforehand is a good idea.



Lets say that you study the books that they have sent throughly, How difficult is the test still going to be approximetaly according to your opinion?????


----------



## IrishCanuck

So the general consensus is apply yourself fully to the information they give you, and that will give you as good a chance as any at passing? 

Damn logic..


----------



## old man neri

northbiker said:
			
		

> Lets say that you study the books that they have sent throughly, How difficult is the test still going to be approximetaly according to your opinion?????



It is impossible to tell. They never tell you how good you did. It is, however, very stressful. It is all self induced stress. You will only spend one or two hrs a day being tested. The rest of the time you spend thinking how you did, that's why it becomes stressful. You have nothing else to do during the day except thinking about how you did because they don't tell you if you are doing good or not. Get what I am saying? Ultimately some people have it and some people don't. That's the cold heart truth, when I went through they're were a lot of broken hearts in Trenton. I am sure this is true every week.



> So the general consensus is apply yourself fully to the information they give you, and that will give you as good a chance as any at passing



Amazing, and here I thought there was going to be a magical secret on this forum saying exactly how to pass.

Cheers and best of luck to you all.


----------



## narushima

Hi everybody,

I have been waiting for an offer since 3 years now. I was 19y/o when I did all the test to be CEOTP Pilot and was very succesful at all of them. I am a bit pissed off because many time the recruiters have told me that I shoud be getting an offer soon...but after 3 years waiting for it im starting to think its quite not as open as they tell me it is (well now its closed tho). 

I just want to get your opinion on those situations. Should I just forget it and change my plans or should I still wait for it.

Oh and they told me If i wanted I could start CEOTP Infantry Officer training this year. But that would basicly eliminate my ultimate dream or being a CForces pilot I guess...Is the contract for that also 9 years? I dont see myself being accepted for pilot at 32 if so.

Anyway im just tired of waiting i was ready for this since day 1 of the recruiting process 

Peace,
Narushima


----------



## tree hugger

Ugh!  You must be the poster child for patience!

What have you been doing for the past 3 years?  Have you been working towards your degree?  Have you been checking up with the RC regularly?


----------



## Zoomie

Narushima,

While I sympathize with your plight, I must remind you that CEOTP is an entry plan that is not ideal for the CF.  

The CF wishes all of its Officer cadre to be degreed - therefore as a CEOTP applicant, you are placed behind all DEO applicants.  

I sincerely hope that in the last three years you have been working towards your University Degree - anything else would have been a waste of your time.


----------



## jrm

I am considering applying for pilot under ROTP. I am currently a Univeristy student. I have a few questions about the application and training as well as what life is like for a CF pilot:

I am a little concerned about my eyesight (which is currently better than 20/20 in both eyes) may degrade in the next three years when I will be done my degree. If I go to the aircrew selection centre this summer and complete the medicals with my currently acceptable eyesight, how long will I be able to use this record for application as a pilot? If I am offered pilot, how long do I have to accept the offer (when does the offer expire)?

I would only be interested in the pilot position and I do not wish to be stuck with a mandatory service requirement after I am done my degree in the case that I am not accepted as pilot because my eyesight has changed since I went to the ASC, or for some other reasion. If I have completed a portion of my degree and been subsidized for it, but I am not accepted for pilot in the end, will I be able to get out of the CF through any means such that I wouldn't have to serve a mandatory service at that time?

How does the application and subsquent offer of a training position work if I apply under ROTP and continue at my current civilian university? Will I train in the summer? If so, what training will be done in the summer? Will the CF be able to deny me a pilot position after I am done my degree for some reason such that I will be stuck with a mandatory service requirement?

In the event that I do not make the next step in the flight training process, what are my options then? I suppose I am really interested in the details of mandatory service, ie when are the cutoffs such that I have to serve in some job, when can I get out, etc.

And finally... What are the working conditions for a CF pilot? I am married and I will be having kids in a couple of years and it would be preferable to not be constantly away from them. How long would I have to be away from my family on a regular basis, barring obvious deployments? How long would I be deployed if I was?

Thanks for your replies!


----------



## SupersonicMax

If you don't want to be away, don't be a pilot period.  Nevermind a CF pilot.  

If you are not ready to do something else if you're not pilot (ie: you fail Flight Training or your health goes bad) then don't join the CF.. There is no guarantee and you WILL have to honour your contract (2 months of work for the CF every month of subsidized education)

Max


----------



## armyvern

Hmm,

Interesting. I might add that even if you are accepted as a pilot...you may go on to fail the training!! And you'll still be obligated service. What would you do if faced with that?? There are no guarantees that you'll pass, eyesight aside.

For some weird reason, I'm getting the idea that perhaps the CF will not be to your liking at all.


----------



## Strike

So many questions, so little time.



> I am a little concerned about my eyesight (which is currently better than 20/20 in both eyes) may degrade in the next three years when I will be done my degree. If I go to the aircrew selection centre this summer and complete the medicals with my currently acceptable eyesight, how long will I be able to use this record for application as a pilot?



You have a medical every year once in the military and your eyesight will be tested then as well.  Cyclo exams (those wonderful drops that make you look like you've been licking a poisonous toad) are done every 3 years.  I think it used to be 5, but I had to get one done myself this year and was told it's every 3.  With summer training and barring any training delays, you would most likely finish your training about 2-3 years after you graduate from university.  So, unless you have some type of degenerative disease, I don't think you have to worry about your eyesight deteriorating to below standard prior to getting your wings.



> If I have completed a portion of my degree and been subsidized for it, but I am not accepted for pilot in the end, will I be able to get out of the CF through any means such that I wouldn't have to serve a mandatory service at that time?



Unless they have changed how things are done lately, when you sign on that dotted line you already know what trade you will be going into.  Should something unforseen happen, like a medical situation or, God forbid, a course failure, there are a few scenarios that you might see.  You might be offered another trade, you might have to work out the rest of your time in odd jobs (4 years subsidized university = 5 years service, including the training time), you might get punted out.  You might also decide to leave in which case you would have to pay back a sum to make up for being subsidized through school.



> How does the application and subsquent offer of a training position work if I apply under ROTP and continue at my current civilian university? Will I train in the summer? If so, what training will be done in the summer? Will the CF be able to deny me a pilot position after I am done my degree for some reason such that I will be stuck with a mandatory service requirement?



Generally, an ROTP application is made prior to accepting a position at a university so, for someone who is already going to school, I'm not sure what plan this would fall under.

Training for Basic, Second Language, and Primary flight training are done in the summer (usually) for those attending university.  The other courses in Moose Jaw, Portage, and Cold Lake are carried out after school is complete.

Once again, don't beleive there have been any changes but, unless there are extenuating circumstance like medical or course failures, what you signed in for is what you train for.



> In the event that I do not make the next step in the flight training process, what are my options then? I suppose I am really interested in the details of mandatory service, ie when are the cutoffs such that I have to serve in some job, when can I get out, etc.



See above.



> And finally... What are the working conditions for a CF pilot? I am married and I will be having kids in a couple of years and it would be preferable to not be constantly away from them. How long would I have to be away from my family on a regular basis, barring obvious deployments? How long would I be deployed if I was?



For that one, I suggest that you hit the search function and browse.  I'm sure there's a thread or two comparing how each flying community lives and which is better for the single folk and the family types.  It all depends on what type of aircraft you are interested in.  Not only that, but how the members of a unit are living now might change based on operational tempo, deployments, who's working there, any number of things.

As for the other comments posted here, they are right (although Max needs to lighten up a bit).  Being a pilot in the CF is not a free ticket into Big Red and it's certainly not all about the flying.  Our hours are remarkably lower than guys on civvie street per annum, because we still have to do all that military stuff.  I suggest you research the dirt about the job a little more prior to making a decision.


----------



## jrm

Yeesh, good way to encourage applications. Never said that my problem was being naive. Just wondering about the regulations and how family life can vary for a pilot in the CF.

It sounds like the best choice for someone interested in only pilot would be to finish their degree and apply DEO, so as to monitor eyesight and health, etc, closer to the date of application and commencement of training. I suppose I'm mostly nervous about potential health issues somehow sneaking up on me, though it's probably just paranoia.

I searched the forum but I couldn't find a good posting about how family life can vary for pilots in the CF. What occupations tend to be deployed or away from home more often? How long do regular deployments in the feild last? Is it possible, say, to instruct on a regular basis?

Thanks for the info


----------



## Inch

Here's the crazy thing about health, you could have a heart murmur and not even know about it until you go to Toronto and get an ultra sound done. Heart murmur = rejected for pilot.

All pilots are deployable. SAR pilots don't tend to deploy outside the country but you'll live your live carrying around a beeper and no matter what you've got on the go, if that beeper goes off, you're going to work. Maritime Helo pilots will spend around 6 months a year at sea. Tactical helo pilots, well, I'll let Strike fill you in there, but expect to be on exercise or course for around 4-6 months a year there too provided you don't get deployed somewhere. Transport guys will be gone for days at a time, home for a bit then gone again. One of the disadvantages to flying a long range aircraft is you have to fly half way around the world. Maritime Patrol, I don't know a lot about these guys WRT deploying but expect exercises and whatnot down in the US for up to 2-3 months straight sometimes. Fighters, again, exercises for a few months here and there but typically very long days while home.

It is possible to instruct, however those postings don't tend to be more than 4 or so years, unless your name is "Duke" and you instruct on Jet Rangers.

In all cases, as a pilot, expect strange working hours, sometimes you're in at 0800, sometime you don't even start until after supper and you're at work all night. Expect courses every few months from 2-4 weeks that will take you to exotic places like Winnipeg. Expect short notice deployments in the event the world goes to hell, like it did when TacHel went to Haiti, twice.

Being a CF pilot is a lifestyle more than a cool job with a good paycheck. I have been flying Sea Kings for 2.5 years and I've been at sea for both of my birthdays during that time. Expect to miss your kid's birthdays, wife's birthday, anniversary, kid's first day at school etc. When you're needed, you go. If your marriage is not up to the task, you'll be divorced before long. When my boss deployed to the Adriatic in the mid 90's, he went for 7 months, back for 6 and went again for 6 more months. Of the 6 Officers on his detachment, only 1 is still married to the same person, the other 5 including him got divorced.

Air Force, there's no life like it!  ;D


----------



## jstearns

I have done a search on this but I am unable to find anything that answers my question in full.  I have read that NCOs are able to switch trades if a job is open and they are not needed in their job, but I am not sure about officers.  I received a late offer for air nav (my second choice), however I had my heart set on pilot.  This is under the ROTP and I would be going to a civilian university (I already have one year complete).  I am tempted to accept the offer for air nav and I am wondering if I do am I able to become a pilot later on?  I understand that the training is different, but for the first bit it is the same, such as bmq, language training etc.  Is this correct? 

So basically can I switch later, or if I am set on pilot should I reject the offer and try again, or try under a different entrance program?  I was thinking of doing the CEOTP, but it sounds like from what I have heard on here that I would be waiting a long long time to get through that way.  I am unsure how quick going through DEO would be if I got my degree on my own.

Lastly, I heard that air navs are adventally going to be phased out because any new aircraft will not require them.  I was wondering if anyone knows how true this is and if it is what will happen to the obsolete air navs?

Thanks


----------



## Rowshambow

Air nav do the same ASC (aircrew selection) as pilots. I am currently working with a fellow Ocdt that is air nav and he said all the Airnav guys on his serial failed the pilot portion. So have you already done the ASC and if so did you pass the sim part? I think you can do a transfer, but I am not sure in what capacity.


----------



## dimsum

There are few people in the forums who have tons of time in as Navs, but here are my $0.02 worth as a new Nav.

1.  It's possible to switch from Nav to Pilot despite the difference in vision requirements and what not...the thing is that you have 4 years after getting your Nav wings that you can't switch trades.  After that, though, it's open season.  When I was asking these questions, Crazyleggs helped me out a ton; he's really good for answering questions so PM him for details on how to go about doing it.

2.  Maritime Helos need Navs and as far as I know Cyclones will definitely have one (maybe even 2?  Anyone care to answer?)  From my research and working at a sqn for a bit, "Air Nav" is kind of a misnomer, since most of their job (esp Maritime Helo) isn't navigating at all.  

3.  Training (IAP, BOTP, 2nd Language) is exactly the same for both trades.  

4.  ROTP Civ U, in my opinion, is prob the best way to go about getting in.  They pay your tuition, and with the delays in training (Nav or Pilot) you'll be done your required years once you get your wings or shortly thereafter.  The training delays for Pilot are in the matter of years, while for Navs it's slightly shorter (but dont' expect back to back courses.)  So, even if you do go DEO, you'll be waiting a while anyway...might as well get Joe Canadian to pay for your degree!  

Again, just my $0.02

Dimsum


----------



## aesop081

Dimsum said:
			
		

> 2.  Maritime Helos need Navs and as far as I know Cyclones will definitely have one (maybe even 2?  Anyone care to answer?)



2 pilots, 1 Nav and 1 AES Op will be the crew composition of the CH-148 Cyclone


----------



## SupersonicMax

Dimsum said:
			
		

> They pay your tuition, and with the delays in training (Nav or Pilot) you'll be done your required years once you get your wings or shortly thereafter.  The training delays for Pilot are in the matter of years, while for Navs it's slightly shorter (but dont' expect back to back courses.)  So, even if you do go DEO, you'll be waiting a while anyway...might as well get Joe Canadian to pay for your degree!



Obligatory Service for Plt and ANav is counted from wing grad (7 for pilots, 5 for navs).  Pilot training is getting there.  I waited 10 months for BFT (which is the norm now I guess).  

Max


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

There's at least one (fully trained with several years in) Nav in Pilot training right now ... I've been told that the new Hercs won't have a Nav seat (maybe someone else can confirm or refute this?).


----------



## Zoomie

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> I've been told that the new Hercs won't have a Nav seat (maybe someone else can confirm or refute this?).



There are no positions for Navigators on the J Model Hercules, CC-177 Globemaster III and the new FWSAR aircraft.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Zoomie said:
			
		

> There are no positions for Navigators on the J Model Hercules, CC-177 Globemaster III and the new FWSAR aircraft.



Is it a sign of the Nav trade phasing out?

Max


----------



## Buddha66

I understand that the Nav will still be part of the crew on the Cyclone even when it is in the log / troop carrier config.  So theoretically, the sqn CO (LCol) can be on board a Cyclone manning a door gun with 20 odd troopies along for the ride.  All other flying forces (AF, Army and Navy) the door gunner is a MCpl - Sgt.  The Nav Mafia is hanging on to this one tightly.


----------



## aesop081

Buddha66 said:
			
		

> The Nav Mafia is hanging on to this one tightly.



The navs are not the only ones ,manning the C-6 in the MH world...they do have to share duties with their AES Op


----------



## Buddha66

Understood...but is it the job of a Nav LCol?  methinks not :


----------



## aesop081

Buddha66 said:
			
		

> Understood...but is it the job of a Nav LCol?  methinks not :



If the LCol is the nav on the crew....why not ? Rank on board the aircraft doesnt excuse anyone from performing the duties required by their trade or from the need to maintain individual currencies.


----------



## jstearns

Hey guys,

Thanks for your feedback, sorry I did not reply earlier (have been working and wihtout internet for a few days).

You all have answered my questions quite well, and have made me feel much better about my decision.  I had to give them an answer before I got a chance to look at this forum again.  I did accept, but I have not gone to ACS and will not be going.  I guess I am supposed to be going to Kelowna, BC to take the air nav test, if I pass that I  go sign the papers about 2 weeks later.

Once again thank you all for your input, it is appreciated.


----------



## recce4life

I have heard many different ways about becoming a pilot in the CF.  One person says I need a university degree another says I don't as long as I get some sort of degree within 10 yrs of becoming an officer.  I have been in the CF for 6yrs so I guess I would be applying as CEOTP?  Can anyone tell me how it really works to become a pilot?  I know its tough to become a CF-18 pilot and you have to be the best of the best to fly those flying erections.


----------



## Inch

There are numerous ways to become a pilot, there's a whole bunch for civvies (ROTP, CEOTP, DEO, etc) as well as a few for those already enrolled in the CF. Degrees are currently mandatory, so UTPNCM will be your most likely route, though a call to your local BPSO will answer all questions related to your individual situation.


----------



## zorro

In addition, you could check out the Occupational Transfer board on this site....there's a lot of useful (and not so useful) information on there. Just be mindful of what your reading...


----------



## recce4life

Thanks guys thats good help. I'll def go see the BPSO.


----------



## Loachman

recce4life said:
			
		

> ...CF-18 pilot ... best of the best...



In their opinion. Fifty percent of them are below average, too.

Banter aside, most forms of military flying have their challenges, and there is no less talent or quality in those cockpits.



> ... flying erections ...



My comment on that one I'll keep to myself, even if it's hard.


----------



## recce4life

Loachman said:
			
		

> In their opinion. Fifty percent of them are below average, too.
> 
> Banter aside, most forms of military flying have their challenges, and there is no less talent or quality in those cockpits.
> 
> My comment on that one I'll keep to myself, even if it's hard.



I guess thats the problem with being in the army you have to take other peoples word on that subject as you have no clue, but thanks.


----------



## Inch

recce4life said:
			
		

> I guess thats the problem with being in the army you have to take other peoples word on that subject as you have no clue, but thanks.



Easy there cowboy, Loachman has been through Moose Jaw and beyond, as have I, and I'm sure Loachman and Good2Golf will back me up when I say that the jet slots don't always go to the top 2 or 3 guys on a course. A guy in the middle third got jets on my course, 3 of the top 5 got helos. 

So how's that for been there done that?


----------



## Zoomie

UTPNCM is open for members of the Regular Force - I see by your profile that you are a R031.

In order to Component Transfer to the RegF you will require a University Degree.  CEOTP is only used as a last ditch effort to fill the hiring slots for a fiscal year - that program only opens sporadically.

The CF is desperate for CF-18 pilots right now - best of luck to you.


----------



## C1Dirty

Inch...I don't think Recce4life was questioning Lman's credibility but rather what he had heard in the past.  

Recce4life...Good luck with the transfer. BTW, everyone knows that a pilot is measured by the size of his aircraft.


----------



## Inch

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> Inch...I don't think Recce4life was questioning Lman's credibility but rather what he had heard in the past.
> 
> Recce4life...Good luck with the transfer. BTW, everyone knows that a pilot is measured by the size of his aircraft.



I think you're right, I read it the wrong way. That's the problem with the internet sometimes.  :-[

Apologies Recce4life.

BTW, everyone knows a pilot is measured by his ability to hover!  ;D


----------



## Strike

Flying a jet = riding a bike.

Flying a helo = riding a unicycle while tapping your head and rubbing your stomach AND chewing gum!

My 2 cents.


----------



## icatq

Flying fixed wing is OK....but.....

You can't take it back to school
Under-wire flying is definitely frowned upon
....and

fixed wing guys generally scorn rotary.....until they have to leave their aircraft without being on terra firma. Then rotary is their bestest friend in the whole wide world and they would give anything just to see you beating the air into submission on the way to pick them up. Having picked a Sea Harrier driver out of the drink and returned him to the carrier........never bought a drink when we finally met up.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Zoomie said:
			
		

> In order to Component Transfer to the RegF you will require a University Degree.  CEOTP is only used as a last ditch effort to fill the hiring slots for a fiscal year - that program only opens sporadically.
> 
> The CF is desperate for CF-18 pilots right now - best of luck to you.



On that note, the 23 May 2007 production numbers show that CEOTP-Pilot is open.


----------



## Rowshambow

John Galt, do you have a link, i was just on the Edmonton BPSO website and it still says closed! A friend of mine would like it.

I am already in the CEOTP for Pilot and hope to go Rotary wing!! I would like 408 and then maybe the boats and the new Cyclone! 

Someone once told my Flying an F18 sounds cool, but after the first few flights it's kinda like driving from Edmonton to Winnipeg, you are going in a straight line and you don't realize how fast you are going until you look at the speedo! Still I would love to try it once!


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

No link, numbers are from the production tables in the CFRG network (RWAN - totally separate from DIN) ... were last updated 23 May 2007 ... interesting b/c Pilot had no DEO or CEOTP slots at the beginning of May.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> Someone once told my Flying an F18 sounds cool, but after the first few flights it's kinda like driving from Edmonton to Winnipeg, you are going in a straight line and you don't realize how fast you are going until you look at the speedo! Still I would love to try it once!



Actually, dropping bombs, BFM and ACM is far from flying straight and level.  From the F-18 guys I've been around, I don't know any that were not enjoying going up there and fly.

Max


----------



## recce4life

Inch said:
			
		

> I think you're right, I read it the wrong way. That's the problem with the internet sometimes.  :-[
> 
> Apologies Recce4life.
> 
> BTW, everyone knows a pilot is measured by his ability to hover!  ;D



Hey no problem no hard feelings here. I wouldn't come into your forum and start trouble especially on something I need help on haha and yes the internet is bad for lack of emotions I get it all the time. NO BIGGIE.

Well I am a very opened minded person and like to learn from the guys who have been there and done that.  Oh and I have tried riding a unicycle and that didn't work out to well lets just hope I can have kids! lol.

Cheers guys thanks a lot.


----------



## Loachman

Zoomie said:
			
		

> The CF is desperate for CF-18 pilots right now - best of luck to you.



For every other variety of pilot, too.

And ditto on the luck thing.

I was, of course, being semi-sarcastic in my previous post. Fighters just aren't my thing - I wanted Tac Hel/Kiowa/427 Squadron from the start and got exactly that - but I certainly (don't tell any of them) respect those guys.

What regiment are you with? (PM me if you don't want to say publically)


----------



## Loachman

icatq said:
			
		

> Under-wire flying is definitely frowned upon



We could do bridges in Germany, too, and there were some nice ones.


----------



## recce4life

Loachman said:
			
		

> For every other variety of pilot, too.
> 
> And ditto on the luck thing.
> 
> I was, of course, being semi-sarcastic in my previous post. Fighters just aren't my thing - I wanted Tac Hel/Kiowa/427 Squadron from the start and got exactly that - but I certainly (don't tell any of them) respect those guys.
> 
> What regiment are you with? (PM me if you don't want to say publically)



I don't mind.  I was with the Ontario Regiment an Armoured Recce Regiment near Toronto but now I am on a 3 yr class B contract with LFCA so now they are my unit because of the length of my employment.  I do love helicopters I have only been in them twice and wish I could go on more rides I love to sit by the skids its a rush I love it.  But unfortunately being the new QM I don't get to go in the field with my former regiment and play silly bugger and get to fly in the helicopters.


----------



## Loachman

Inch said:
			
		

> BTW, everyone knows a pilot is measured by his ability to hover!  ;D


If you can't hover, you're... no, you're allowed to be that now...


----------



## Loachman

recce4life said:
			
		

> I don't mind.  I was with the Ontario Regiment an Armoured Recce Regiment near Toronto but now I am on a 3 yr class B contract with LFCA so now they are my unit because of the length of my employment.  I do love helicopters I have only been in them twice and wish I could go on more rides I love to sit by the skids its a rush I love it.  But unfortunately being the new QM I don't get to go in the field with my former regiment and play silly bugger and get to fly in the helicopters.



I probably booked both of those rides for you. I'll be in the HQ tomorrow. Call me at 5327.


----------



## recce4life

Loachman said:
			
		

> I probably booked both of those rides for you. I'll be in the HQ tomorrow. Call me at 5327.



Will do Sir!


----------



## Loachman

Keep calling until you get me - don't leave a message.


----------



## Astrodog

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> No link, numbers are from the production tables in the CFRG network (RWAN - totally separate from DIN) ... were last updated 23 May 2007 ... interesting b/c Pilot had no DEO or CEOTP slots at the beginning of May.



   Sorry, I got lost in the acronyms. Last I saw was the 0/0 for DEO/CEO, you're saying that there are now CEOTP slots open?


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Astrodog said:
			
		

> you're saying that there are now CEOTP slots open?



As of May 23rd, YES.


----------



## MAJONES

Hi recce:
  I'm a pilot awaiting training doing my OJT over at CFRC Toronto.  I looked at the production table today and there are a number of CEOTP spots available.  I'd reccommend coming in and getting things rolling quickly because we have a ton of applications for them.  Just a bit of a heads up, (and certainly not to discourage you), there is a long wait between finishing SLT and getting your course at Moose Jaw.  The last estimate was ~14 months.  I wouldn't worry about it to much.  If you want a hand with getting things started just call me at the Recruiting Centre (2Lt Jones).
I noticed that there are some guys with a fair bit of time in following this thread, so I'd like to run a few ideas past them.
My goal is to get an instructor slot at Moose Jaw, the reason being the Harvard IIs look like fun to fly, and I get the impression that you guys get to do a fair bit of different types of flying.  My questions are:  Have I gotten the wrong impression? & How hard is it to get an instructors slot?


----------



## Inch

MAJONES said:
			
		

> Hi recce:
> I'm a pilot awaiting training doing my OJT over at CFRC Toronto.  I looked at the production table today and there are a number of CEOTP spots available.  I'd reccommend coming in and getting things rolling quickly because we have a ton of applications for them.  Just a bit of a heads up, (and certainly not to discourage you), there is a long wait between finishing SLT and getting your course at Moose Jaw.  The last estimate was ~14 months.  I wouldn't worry about it to much.  If you want a hand with getting things started just call me at the Recruiting Centre (2Lt Jones).
> I noticed that there are some guys with a fair bit of time in following this thread, so I'd like to run a few ideas past them.
> My goal is to get an instructor slot at Moose Jaw, the reason being the Harvard IIs look like fun to fly, and I get the impression that you guys get to do a fair bit of different types of flying.  My questions are:  Have I gotten the wrong impression? & How hard is it to get an instructors slot?



It all depends on what you're joining for. As an instructor, you will not deploy, you will not do tactical low level nav, in fact, you very rarely will break out of the standard Moose Jaw, Swift Current, Saskatoon, Regina funk. If you're joining to do different stuff than basic flight instruction and the odd weekly formation trip (which again is usually the same stuff over and over), I would think you'll be disappointed in an instructor slot. Keep in mind, I've never been an instructor but in talking to guys I went through MJ with, it's a pretty boring job at times.

Myself, I joined to deploy, fly low and do stuff that very few people get to do outside the operational Sqns. 

All aircraft in the CF have their pros and cons, even the mighty Sea King. Nowhere else can you land a 72ft long, 20,000 lb helo on the deck of a pitching and rolling ship, at night, with the hangar face only 15ft away from the front of your rotor arc.

Also, to get an instructor slot, you have to get a jet slot. Which these days apparently isn't all that hard, however, there's a very good chance you'll get sent to Cold Lake and never instruct on the Harvard II. There's no guarantees in this job, except that the testing and upgrading never ends!


----------



## Loachman

"Have to get a jet slot"??? To instruct on the Harvard II? All MJ instructors must do the Hawk first? No pipeliners?

MAJONES - you have time to think and research, including a fair proportion of your Moose Jaw time. If you still want to instruct, I'm sure that that will present no great difficulty. And it's better for the students if their instructors actually WANT to instruct. I've observed that unenthusiastic instructors tend not to put as much effort into their students as they should (not that I'm an advocate of spoon-feeding).

I remain convinced that the high washout rate in Portage before Primary was turned over to civilians who actually wanted the job was due in large part to the Musketeer being the least-desired flying job in the CF, especially pipeliners with high ambition and testosterone levels. They may not have taken their frustrations out on their students, but at least some didn't do their jobs to the best of their abilities due to their own lack of motivation.

I was lucky - my principal instructor (this was in 1979) already had a couple of tours and was more mature.

The first course to go through with the civ instructors didn't lose anybody (mind you, there were only ten on the course and all were cross-trainees), as opposed to a historical 30% loss rate and 50% on the 01 course each year.

I instructed on the Kiowa in Downsview for almost four years, and rapidly found the basic hel stuff to be repetitive and boring. Fortunately, others liked doing that which left me free to concentrate on the tactical courses, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

There are a few guys who have spent most of their careers instructing. Everybody has something that they like.


----------



## Inch

Loachman said:
			
		

> "Have to get a jet slot"??? To instruct on the Harvard II? All MJ instructors must do the Hawk first? No pipeliners?



Yepper, you don't get your wings after the Harvard II, wings are awarded after AFT, either the Jet Ranger, King Air or Hawk. All Instructor pipes go from Harvard II to Hawk, get their wings and then off to FIS.

Isn't NFTC great?


----------



## Loachman

That makes sense to somebody, I suppose.

And I bet that that person does not wear a beret.

Some of my older Tac Hel buds did Tutor and T33 on Basic, got their wings on the F5, and THEN went to Basic Helicopter. This isn't QUITE so bad.

It wasn't much before I got to Moose Jaw (8101) that everybody did 200 hours on the Tutor, got their wings, and then guys went to Basic Hel.


----------



## Inch

Loachman said:
			
		

> That makes sense to somebody, I suppose.
> 
> And I bet that that person does not wear a beret.
> 
> Some of my older Tac Hel buds did Tutor and T33 on Basic, got their wings on the F5, and THEN went to Basic Helicopter. This isn't QUITE so bad.
> 
> It wasn't much before I got to Moose Jaw (8101) that everybody did 200 hours on the Tutor, got their wings, and then guys went to Basic Hel.



I think it's a little more standard now, except for the FLIT guys who do another course on the Hawk in Frosty Pond prior to the Hornet OTU. We all do 100 or so hours on the Harvard II, then another 100 or so hours on AFT, get our wings, and then off to the OTU's. FIS would be the equivalent of the OTU for pipe instructors.


----------



## MAJONES

Thanks guys, I appreciate the info.


----------



## Chou

Hey  JONES, you got anymore of those funny/crazy recruiting calls, you should start a journal or a thread out here and post them.  (sorry for the off topic).


----------



## MAJONES

Hey Chou!  I was thinking of doing that,  but I'm afraid some of the potential recruits on here might recognize themselves  ;D


----------



## Globesmasher

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> BTW, everyone knows that a pilot is measured by the size of his aircraft.



Woohooo .............  
I guess I win ...... 174 feet long, with a circumference of about 95 feet and weighing in at 585,000 lbs.

Hello ladies!!!!!  ;D

Size matters.  ;D


----------



## Globesmasher

Zoomie said:
			
		

> The CF is desperate for CF-18 pilots right now - best of luck to you.



The pilot trade is desperate for pilots .... period.
Like many other CF trades attrition last year was higher than expected and attrition this year looks to be as bad.

The economy is good right now and many of the guy/gals are releasing at the end of their SSE and IE with some very nice severence packages and walking over to the airlines.  It is simply a sign of the times and the grass on the other side of the fence is greener for them for personal and other reasons.

I have been pressing many of my colleagues here in Trenton who are navs in the air mobility community and who see a possible slow demise to their trade (CC-130J and CC177 coming on line) to OT to the pilot trade.  Many are doing just that.

Right now the PML is woefully below where it should be so if I were you and if you were keen on becoming a pilot I would be engaging with whatever personnel services I could to find the quickest and best way to come over .... be it an OT, or be it releasing from the reserve force and then re-enrolling into the reg force.  I don't know what the best solution or answer is, not my jurisdiction .... but believe me when I say our manning level is critical right now.

The CF needs pilots .... and many other trades too for that matter.


----------



## Loachman

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> Woohooo .............
> I guess I win ...... 174 feet long, with a circumference of about 95 feet and weighing in at 585,000 lbs.
> 
> Hello ladies!!!!!  ;D
> 
> Size matters.  ;D



Yeah, yeah, yeah - you just keep telling yourself that.

It's just a method of compensating.

I previously flew the Kiowa, most likely the smallest manned flying machine that the CF ever operated.

Rather a number of ladies seemed impressed by the rides I gave. If only we could run a little competition...


----------



## GAP

Loachman said:
			
		

> Yeah, yeah, yeah - you just keep telling yourself that.
> 
> It's just a method of compensating.
> 
> I previously flew the Kiowa, most likely the smallest manned flying machine that the CF ever operated.
> 
> Rather a number of ladies seemed impressed by the rides I gave. If only we could run a little competition...



But then they had to get out of the helicopter.


----------



## Lear

I see there is a high need for pilots right now. I have been civy trained to get a PPL and am currently a Reservist with the Combat Engineers. My question is, I don't yet have a university degree, am starting first year in Ottawa in September, is there a way to begin the process now and do some training in my summers and go full out once I get the degree. Second semi related question once you get your wings is the aircraft to the pilot, as the rifle is to the infanteer i.e. the aircraft your assigned is yours for career baring mechanical problems of course? Thanks for any info.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Disregard...


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Lear said:
			
		

> I see there is a high need for pilots right now. I have been civy trained to get a PPL and am currently a Reservist with the Combat Engineers. My question is, I don't yet have a university degree, am starting first year in Ottawa in September, is there a way to begin the process now and do some *training in my summers and go full out once I get the degree*. Second semi related question once you get your wings is the aircraft to the pilot, as the rifle is to the infanteer i.e. the aircraft your assigned is yours for career baring mechanical problems of course? Thanks for any info.



ROTP - Civi U ... talk to a recruiter at your local CFRC!


----------



## Loachman

There are far more pilots (and other aircrew members) than aircraft. You don't get to paint your name on one.

In the Tac Hel world, hels are configured for applicable missions (generally set up to seat eight troops, though) so one gets whatever's suitable, serviceable, and available for one's trip. Inspection and maintenance cycles are another big factor, as there will be "push" aircraft and "hold" aircraft in order to maintain an aircraft stagger so that a unit does not end up with too many machines stripped down for major scheduled maintenance, or to ensure that there are enough serviceable airframes for a surge activity such as an exercise or G8 summit, for example.

Pilots like COs, DCOs, Flt Comds, Ops Os etcetera should be spending more time commanding, supervising, and planning but even line pilot positions (should) exceed cockpit seats to account for shiftwork, leave, course, deployment, sickness, and malingering.


----------



## C1Dirty

> 174 feet long, with a circumference of about 95 feet and weighing in at 585,000 lbs



That's a pencil-like ratio.  It's all about girth and the four fans of freedom (not to be confused with the 140's four fans boredom). 

So are the 177's still on track for a late summer arrival?  I'm almost as excited as the perimeter fence to see those bad-boys arrive.  Are they taking pri fi bookings yet? 

C1D


----------



## aesop081

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> (not to be confused with the 140's four fans boredom).



Oh please.......you just wish you were able to fly at 300 kts, 200 feet above the water, screaming towards suface ships or doing 60 degree bank turns at 300 feet hunting a submarine in total darkness.....

 ;D


----------



## C1Dirty

I hear the terrain over the ocean is quite challenging...

Sorry for the highjack Lear.  As mentioned, if you're starting at UO, call the recruiting centre and have someone else pay your tuition.


----------



## ark

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> The pilot trade is desperate for pilots .... period.
> Like many other CF trades attrition last year was higher than expected and attrition this year looks to be as bad.
> 
> The economy is good right now and many of the guy/gals are releasing at the end of their SSE and IE with some very nice severence packages and walking over to the airlines.  It is simply a sign of the times and the grass on the other side of the fence is greener for them for personal and other reasons.
> 
> I have been pressing many of my colleagues here in Trenton who are navs in the air mobility community and who see a possible slow demise to their trade (CC-130J and CC177 coming on line) to OT to the pilot trade.  Many are doing just that.
> 
> Right now the PML is woefully below where it should be so if I were you and if you were keen on becoming a pilot I would be engaging with whatever personnel services I could to find the quickest and best way to come over .... be it an OT, or be it releasing from the reserve force and then re-enrolling into the reg force.  I don't know what the best solution or answer is, not my jurisdiction .... but believe me when I say our manning level is critical right now.
> 
> The CF needs pilots .... and many other trades too for that matter.



It is nice wanting more people but are there any initiatives in place to accelerate training for the newcomers?


----------



## Zoomie

ark said:
			
		

> It is nice wanting more people but are there any initiatives in place to accelerate training for the newcomers?



Incentives?  Other than being highly trained and guaranteed job security?

Training can't be accelerated any more than it already is.  If you really want those shiney CF Pilot's Wings, you have to stick it out through thick and thin.  If this program was easy, everyone would be a pilot.

Your OJT can be a rewarding experience while waiting for training.


----------



## J_Muir

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Incentives?  Other than being highly trained and guaranteed job security?
> 
> Training can't be accelerated any more than it already is.  If you really want those shiney CF Pilot's Wings, you have to stick it out through thick and thin.  If this program was easy, everyone would be a pilot.
> 
> Your OJT can be a rewarding experience while waiting for training.



I think he might mean in terms of waiting periods etc. I'm in the process of getting my initial application sent in because I know how long the process is. The one aspect of the 'whole process' is all the time I hear people spend waiting around - I wish it would all take place in a row - ie. from application to wings was ALWAYS 'x' amount of time and not 'well it could be as many as...'. I've never questioned the dedications and hard work it takes, i just wish it could be faster...I wanna fly dammit! : )


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

As he said,


			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> Training can't be accelerated any more than it already is.


People are being loaded as quickly as they can be ... it's not like there are training slots going unfilled!


----------



## ark

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Incentives?  Other than being highly trained and guaranteed job security?
> 
> Training can't be accelerated any more than it already is.  If you really want those shiney CF Pilot's Wings, you have to stick it out through thick and thin.  If this program was easy, everyone would be a pilot.
> 
> Your OJT can be a rewarding experience while waiting for training.



I was talking about initiatives to accelerate training in order to output more qualified pilots to offset attrition and not make the training any easier.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but from I can read it is not the number of applicants that is the problem but rather the limited number of pilots that can be trained each year. Guess I should have asked if there are any initiatives to output more qualified pilots each year in order to offset attrition.


----------



## J_Muir

ark said:
			
		

> I was talking about initiatives to accelerate training in order to output more qualified pilots to offset attrition and not make the training any easier.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but from I can read it is not the number of applicants that is the problem but rather the limited number of pilots that can be trained each year. Guess I should have asked if there are any initiatives to output more qualified pilots each year in order to offset attrition.



Yeah that's what I thought you meant too - and I feel the same way.


----------



## Globesmasher

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> So are the 177's still on track for a late summer arrival?



Yes, so far so good ...... Aug and Oct for the first two.


----------



## SupersonicMax

ark said:
			
		

> I was talking about initiatives to accelerate training in order to output more qualified pilots to offset attrition and not make the training any easier.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but from I can read it is not the number of applicants that is the problem but rather the limited number of pilots that can be trained each year. Guess I should have asked if there are any initiatives to output more qualified pilots each year in order to offset attrition.



I guess they tried it earlier this year...  They loaded 16 students courses....  Now, all the flights at the Big 2 are overloaded....

Max


----------



## Globesmasher

ark said:
			
		

> I was talking about initiatives to accelerate training in order to output more qualified pilots to offset attrition and not make the training any easier.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but from I can read it is not the number of applicants that is the problem but rather the limited number of pilots that can be trained each year. Guess I should have asked if there are any initiatives to output more qualified pilots each year in order to offset attrition.



ark:

You can only squash and mash so much fresh meat into the front of the sausage machine at any given time.  We simply do not have the infrastructure to train pilots any faster than the current pace that we are jamming the meat through the machine at this moment.  It is not ideal, but it is all we have so far.


----------



## volition

I'm looking of going the reserve pilot route. I have 200 hours of helicopter time; I just need an extra 300 hours to be considered. I also have 60 hours of fixed wing flying, but they don't count that at all.


----------



## Loachman

I presume that you have talked to 438 ETAH in St-Hubert regarding the HELICOP programme?


----------



## volition

Yep, you need 500 hours of helicopter time, and a degree.  :-\


----------



## Loachman

So they've added a degree as a requirement, have they? That's the first that I've heard of that, but then we've not exactly been swamped with HELICOP applicants.

The original requirement was only for a commercial licence, but most of the people that we got were community-college hundred-hour-wonders who did not work out very well. Get some instrument time as well if you really want this.

And good luck. It's not easy building up that many hours.


----------



## volition

Yea, the time building is the hardest!! I will get some instrument time, even my rating I don't mine doing that.


----------



## Bo

I recently arrived in Moose Jaw and noticed alot of foriegn students, particularly Hungarians, Italians, Brits, and Singaporians. If we're having problems pumping students out of the Jaw, why are we giving away slots to foreign students? For example, on the next course, there will be 8 Canadians and 3 Italians.

Now, I think the majority of foriegn students are training for fighters but still, they are using resources (instructors, aircraft, maintenance, etc.) that could be used to train more Canadian pilots.

I understand we make quite a bit of money by selling our services as well as keeping up good relations with our allies, but where are our priorities? With the airline industry picking up and the retirement of baby boomers, the CF is gonna be hurting for pilots pretty soon, if not already.


----------



## George Wallace

Bo

As you mentioned......it pays the 'BILLS'.  

Without the Foreign Students, Moose Jaw would likely have to close.

Canada also has agreements with NATO and other nations for the use of Moose Jaw as a Training Base in Joint Training programs and agreements.  (Again, it pays the Bills).

The fact that Canadians are not flocking to become CF Pilots, or that many can not pass the entrance requirements, means we must find other means to pay the Bills to keep our facility and Instructors operational and current.  Foreign nations paying to have pilots trained here helps solve that problem.  Besides, many nations do not have the open Air Space to conduct such training as you will find around Moose Jaw.  

In the end IT PAYS THE BILLS...... ;D


----------



## fireman1867

Bo said:
			
		

> I recently arrived in Moose Jaw and noticed alot of foriegn students, particularly Hungarians, Italians, Brits, and Singaporians. If we're having problems pumping students out of the Jaw, why are we giving away slots to foreign students? For example, on the next course, there will be 8 Canadians and 3 Italians.
> 
> Now, I think the majority of foriegn students are training for fighters but still, they are using resources (instructors, aircraft, maintenance, etc.) that could be used to train more Canadian pilots.
> 
> I understand we make quite a bit of money by selling our services as well as keeping up good relations with our allies, but where are our priorities? With the airline industry picking up and the retirement of baby boomers, the CF is gonna be hurting for pilots pretty soon, if not already.



Hence the reason the Air Division is pushing PFT extended, it takes NFTC out of the loop, and Moose Jaw becomes fighter selection in a round about way.


----------



## Chou

J_Muir 

Yeah the process is long and at times boring.  But its all about attitude, play the game just like you do in BASIC only this game lasts about a 1-2 years and not 3 months.  You know many people tend to focus on the end result... wings.  Try focusing on the journey because when you get your wings its no over, it will be a few years before you can be operational anyways.  I just want to fly too...  Make the most of your OJT experience.  There are tons of different courses that you can do while you wait.  Just to name a few: Avalanche survival, 9mm, C7, grenade even get your 404 (mil. drivers license) and not to mention your squadron activities.  

Take it all in and enjoy it because later on you won't have as much free time.  Everyone is so caught up on time to wings they forget that they are in the military.  Learn what other trades do, talk to people around you.  You know personally I don`t mind giving up some spots in Moose Jaw for the foreign kids.  The opportunity to talk/work with military people from other countries is an awesome experience.   While going through 2nd language training I was lucky to talk to 2 different courses of foreign students.  Just to hear about their experiences was eye opening.

Anyways I just wanted to add some positivity to the whole process because knowing that you have a stack of files the size of a C-17 to photocopy can be at times discouraging  ;D


----------



## MAJONES

Hey Chou!  How did you manage to get the 9mm course?  (Lucky jerk! ;D )  I've asked about it around here a few times and got blank stares.


----------



## J_Muir

Thanks for the words of wisdon Chou, I appreciate it. Completely undestand what you're saying with the OJT experiences and courses etc. I guess it's just a small part (and a fun part0 of the big picture.

Out of curiosity, are you a pilot or in the process of becomming one? I'm always very curious and open to other people's experiences.


----------



## Zoomie

MAJONES said:
			
		

> Hey Chou!  How did you manage to get the 9mm course?



Where are you currently posted?  Every airforce base offers the 9mm qualification.


----------



## Inch

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Where are you currently posted?  Every airforce base offers the 9mm qualification.



Yep, everyone in MARLANT, including Shearwater, is required to do 9mm and C7 every 2 years.


----------



## MAJONES

I'm posted to CFRC Toronto for my OJT.  I've asked around the unit and the ASU, but come up empty.  Anyone know what the chances are that I could arrange to do the course at Borden through, say, 400 sqn?


----------



## Chou

> Out of curiosity, are you a pilot or in the process of becomming one?


I`m at 438 ETAH doing my OJT, heading to Portage in July. 

MAJONES, 
Our unit runs at least 2 courses a year to get people qualified on the C7 and 9mm.


----------



## Zoomie

MAJONES said:
			
		

> I'm posted to CFRC Toronto for my OJT.   Anyone know what the chances are that I could arrange to do the course at Borden through, say, 400 sqn?



Most likely you are SOL.  As an OJTer you would be filling in slots that your current unit couldn't fill.  Since the CFRC doesn't have a requirement to maintain its DAG status, there wouldn't be any slots for you to backfill.   

If you want to shoot and maintain an OJT position in the GTA - get a job working at a Militia unit.


----------



## Sf2

At a tac hel (or SOA sqn), you do 9mm and C7 every year.


----------



## Bo

Chou, you almost had me fooled, lol. I know all you do is go to timmies, surf the net, go to the pool (cute lifeguards btw), and leave work at 3. How's Claudio doing? Keeping my chair warm? Are the claims piling up yet? Give him the goat for me.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Bo said:
			
		

> Chou, you almost had me fooled, lol. I know all you do is go to timmies, surf the net, go to the pool (cute lifeguards btw), and leave work at 3. How's Claudio doing? Keeping my chair warm? Are the claims piling up yet? Give him the goat for me.



I can only assume that there's already been many an ass-kicking in the Jaw...


----------



## Chou

Hey you gotta send out a positive message to the public!  Just because I may or may not 


> go to timmies, surf the net, go to the pool (cute lifeguards btw), and leave work at 3.


 doesn't me mean I don't have fun, do my work or do the things I said.  

p.s. Claudio was about to go to Portage finally... but then he received a call from the MO who said his surgery is booked for end of June.  Poor guy is going to be on OJT for 2 years before he gets a chance to go to PFT.


----------



## Astrodog

Howdy All,

   Finally got my offer; CEOTP pilot.. is anybody on here intimately familiar with the entry program and if so could they pm me?


----------



## Skidmark

I'm sarting BOTC on 27 th of August in St-Jean. Who's going?


----------



## Astrodog

myself.


----------



## bobbycat21

I am 2LT and was about to be Armor Officer but I ended up changing my mind. I would like to be a pilot as I already have done the simulator test in trenton and was very successfull and I have already my private license in the civi world. So I am currently at the language school as I finished BOTC not long ago. As I am still new to the CF i would like to know how can i switch trade? Shoul I release from the CF and reapply as I have my BOTC and simulator and private license on my side, or is there an easier way?

Thanks!


----------



## SupersonicMax

bobby: you probably signed a contract with the CF.  Honour it.  You were not selected for Pilot DEO and the CEOTP program is just about the same competition.  I would say your best bet would be to request an occupation transfer to Pilot.

Max


----------



## koopa

In two hours I have the chance to be reinterviewed for pilot as I was not competitive due to a new change. I am just 1 point away (opposed to being 9 above the standard before the change). Is there anything I can say (without lying) or study that will help me?


----------



## ark

Have you talked with your interviewer on your strong and weak points after the interview? This may give you a tip on what you could improve.


----------



## koopa

Yes he did but it was 8 months ago so I forget most of it. He mentioned my leadership and flying knowledge was a bit weak but I have since then improved on this. Overall he said the interview was pretty strong


----------



## Meesh

Koopa,

What kind of change are you referring to? 

Thanks,

Meesh


----------



## koopa

They made it even more competitive for the pilot trade (looks like they up'ed it 10 points for minimum entry). I think the possible max score is 90


----------



## Meesh

What is the current minimum entry score for pilot?

Thanks


----------



## Remius

Good day,

The vision requirements for pilots have changed.  People with glasses will no longer be turned away.  A CANFORGEN will be released in about 7 days regarding this but CFRCs have been directed to implement this policy effective today.  V2 is the new requirement.

Call your local CFRC for more details but the info is just now being disseminated.


----------



## Rowshambow

Cool, I weas flying this morning with a pilot that had glasses, so I don't see what the big deal is, really.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Wow - I can just imagine the amount of Pilot applications they will receive now. Good news for those who have been waiting for this door to open...


----------



## Fry

I never bothered finishing my degree when I found out that I was unable to apply because of vision, even if lasik would correct it.


----------



## steven18

OH my godd!!! my dream come true!!  i've been denied last year because I was V2 and now i can apply again!...i was so disapointed to be out of the game for that!..i was V1 3 years ago and now i am V2...anyway i can try again now!! this is so goodd!!!:d


----------



## steven18

i don't know the entry score...but i know that you have to be really strong. And because the new policy is actived (vision of V2) much more people will have access to pilot trade and it's gonna be even harder to have a job offer...i'm gonna reapply as a pilot because i am V2 and i've been denied because of that...so the only thing we can do is wait and hope on day to have an offer!


----------



## BC Old Guy

The reason the score is so high is that so many people want to be pilots.  There were about 78 DEO/CEOTP positions available at the beginning of the year, and almost 600 people asking for jobs.  Your competiton may be someone who has completed a university degree, and has some or all of a private pilots license.  Even then, they may not make it through Air Crew Selection Centre (ASC)


----------



## Rowshambow

Does anyone have a link for this "new message"


----------



## Mike Baker

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> Does anyone have a link for this "new message"


Phone your local CFRC. They should give you the right info if it is not on the web. Or try google.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

It's not in the CANFORGENs on DIN yet. If I see it come up, I will post it (although I have a feeling someone will beat me to it)...


----------



## Loachman

If one waits long enough, common sense occasionally occurs.


----------



## Rowshambow

I phoned the CFRC in Edmonton, the 2LT there told me he has just received an e-mail regarding this, and he said that the Commander was looking into this, regarding DEO and CEOTP candidates, and that a decision will be made. So that tells me that a decision is not yet made (or they haven't told CFRC Ed. yet) So maybe Crant is right and it will be disseminated on Fri. I wonder how long it will take to affect pers doing ASC, and medical in TO. For instance, will it affect the pers going to ASC and DRDC in TO starting next Monday?


----------



## steven18

oh my god  chances to be a pilot are very low! i guess you have nothing to loose to apply but not expect to get a pilot job!


----------



## Rowshambow

I would apply, what are they going to say, no? You might get pleasantly surprised!!!


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Well, you wouldn't (actually - you probably would) believe the excitement this is creating on other aviation chat sites. 

I wonder how vision will factor into selecting a candidate. For example, all things being equal, would they select the person with V1 over someone who does not have V1 or will it matter? I guess we'll find out soon enough...


----------



## RetiredRoyal

wonder when the common sense will hit about lasik.....seems odd that it's ok to protect your investment by letting pilot get lasik while you exclude a candidate who had it.


----------



## Inch

RetiredRoyal said:
			
		

> wonder when the common sense will hit about lasik.....seems odd that it's ok to protect your investment by letting pilot get lasik while you exclude a candidate who had it.



You got duff gen on that one. Winged pilots are *not* permitted to get lasik, never have and probably won't for some time.


----------



## Rowshambow

I heard from a few pilots at work, that the reason you cannot get Laser Eye Surgery, is that if you ever had to eject, then the force would rip your eyes apart, as they were sliced open during surgery! maybe someone here can deny or confirm?


----------



## Inch

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> I heard from a few pilots at work, that the reason you cannot get Laser Eye Surgery, is that if you ever had to eject, then the force would rip your eyes apart, as they were sliced open during surgery! maybe someone here can deny or confirm?



I'm no flight surgeon but an educated guess here would be that it has more to do with decompression at altitude and the possible halos at night than fear of ejecting from the less than 100 aircraft fitted with ejection seats.

If the seats were the only concern, then helo pilots would be able to have it done and, at present, we can't.

While the procedure is getting better with a higher success rate, it's still not perfect. So why would the military spend millions to train a pilot that _may_ have problems with their eyes due to a less than perfect lasik procedure?

Just my thoughts though, don't take them as gospel.


----------



## Civvymedic

I asked my eye Surgeon this exact question regarding Laser eye surgery and although he's not a CF Doc it was basically this.

There are various types of laser eye surgery. Lasik creates a flap above the cornea at the top of the eye. A thin layer of eye tissue well say to keep in simple is cut and rolled up. That flap stay's in place above the eye. PRK is an older type of eye surgery that basically cuts and thins some of the eye tissue, No flap. More invasive, more painful, longer recovery, more drops, meds etc. It's what I got and trust me it hurt and the recovery sucked. But it's more permanent and there is more of a chance of better than 20/20 vision and less of a chance of that flap I mentioned that is created with Lasik giving you problems. Lasik is heavily marketed as a simpler eye surgery, much less discomfort, much shorter recovery time more surgeons doing it etc.

The problem with Lasik is that the flap can come loose and cover the eye. A hard hit to the head playing sports, getting something in your eye, rubbing it after swimming etc. Especially after the first year can ruin that flap. So I can only imagine what an ejection seat would do.

When I researched all this for myself I found a few Police forces would not allow you to be hired the first year after Lasik. PRK was no problem.

I went with the PRK after my Surgeon openly told me that Lasik was truly a more cosmetic option. More easily marketed. He then suggested that I get the cheaper PRK if I could live with the recovery and take some time off work, and even recommended a better surgeon than himself to do the PRK. That kind of honesty was great.

It does however depend on your Corneal thickens, pupil size etc. to determine which surgery is best for individual patients. Shop around but I do believe that is the problem with Lasik.


----------



## RetiredRoyal

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> I heard from a few pilots at work, that the reason you cannot get Laser Eye Surgery, is that if you ever had to eject, then the force would rip your eyes apart, as they were sliced open during surgery! maybe someone here can deny or confirm?



US Navy used to think the same thing, but now they've started experimenting with it on their current aviators http://www-nmcsd.med.navy.mil/news/news_view.cfm?nrid=258.

All three US combat arms offer it to their servicemen at government expense. http://www.medindia.net/news/view_news_main.asp?x=19701, http://www.usaeyes.org/lasik/library/free-lasik-soldiers.htm but that's a story for another thread.

hoorah.


----------



## Blackadder1916

LASIK Eye Surgery for (*United States*) Air Force Aviator Applicants
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/airforce/a/pilotlasik.htm


> From Rod Powers, Your Guide to U.S. Military. May 27 2007
> 
> Air Force Changes Policy
> After years of study, the Air Force has decided to change their long-standing policy which disqualified applicants who have had LASIK surgery from flight training and navigator training. The change became effective May 21. Prior to the change, officers who had had the surgery, prior to flight school could not become Air Force aviators. Under the old policy, a select-few pilots and navigators who had already graduated from flight training could apply to have the surgery and become part of an on-going study group. The change also removes the altitude and high-performance aircraft restrictions for people who have had LASIK.
> 
> The results of the study are finally in, and the Air Force has found that there was little to no effect on LASIK-treated eyes when subjected to high G-forces of combat fighter aircraft, the wind blast experienced during aircraft ejection, or exposure to high altitude.
> 
> Due to stresses placed on the eyes during flight combined with the active lifestyle of military members, the recommended refractive surgeries are Wave Front Guided Photorefractive Keratectomy, or WFG-PRK, and Wave Front Guided Laser In-Situ Keratomileusis, know as WFG-LASIK, using the femtosecond laser. The eyes are more trauma resistant after surgery using one of these methods compared to other forms of refractive surgeries.
> 
> With all refractive surgeries, there is no guarantee of "perfect" sight after undergoing the procedures. Individuals must still meet the standards prescribed in AFI 48-123, Medical Examination and Standard s, for entrance into the Air Force and aviation and special-duty positions.



The usual caveats apply that this refers to the United States Air Force and has no bearing on the requirements of the Canadian Forces.  My experience has been that the CF is more conservative in its approach.  Often that approach is more conservative due to a scientific basis but can also be due to fiscal/personnel/cultural/requirement differences.




			
				RetiredRoyal said:
			
		

> US Navy used to think the same thing, but now they've started experimenting with it on their current aviators http://www-nmcsd.med.navy.mil/news/news_view.cfm?nrid=258.
> 
> All three US combat arms offer it to their servicemen at government expense. http://www.medindia.net/news/view_news_main.asp?x=19701, http://www.usaeyes.org/lasik/library/free-lasik-soldiers.htm but that's a story for another thread.



The aviator referred to in the navy article is a NFO (a backseater not a pilot).  Hopefully the USN will change its policy soon and (as stated in the article) he will have the opportunity to go to flight school.

As for military pers receiving refractive surgery at government expense that would be an interesting subject for a different thread, but a simple explanation would be that the procedures are available to US servicemen at certain *US military medical facilities* (and only there) because they have the military ophthalmologists already there and, let's face it, refractive surgeries have probably now become the most common surgical procedures (worldwide) performed by ophthalmologists.  If the US military was paying for these procedures at civilian facilities I think the story would be different.


----------



## Rowshambow

Inch, ya the guys I heard that from too, were also not gospel, just what they heard, prob some of your old flight school mates etc, but (my question and statement in regards to the 100 or so AC that have eject seats, and please correct me if I am wrong), do all pilots have to do Moose Jaw in the Harvard 2, and if so does it have an ejection seat, so if the ejection seat is the reason, and could cause your eye to peel apart, the reason being that all pilots can't have the procedure is because of their time in MJ and not necessarily what AC you will be flying for your career. 
I do agree it is getting better, and if the change does happen from V1 to V2 I know there will be a very long line up and even more competition for the trade!


----------



## RetiredRoyal

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The aviator referred to in the navy article is a NFO (a backseater not a pilot).  Hopefully the USN will change its policy soon and (as stated in the article) he will have the opportunity to go to flight school.



Yeppers, he's a GIB..but I would imagine that he'd be subject to all the same physical stresses the pilot is during flight and or ejection.


----------



## Inch

All pilots currently go through Moose Jaw on the Harvard II which is equipped with a Martin Baker Mk 16 ejection seat. There are however, trials about to be done with an extended PFT course leading right into the Jet Ranger. I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of that, but I've been told the trial course will be running this fall.


----------



## steven18

I am heading to apply for pilot. I have already done the CFAT, PT test and medical last year to be pilot but i was V2 and couldn't continue with interview and test that follow. Not that I have the vision to apply, i'd like to know if there's any tips for the navigating personel test and the simulator. The recruiter told me that for the navigating 1/6 pass it and for the simulator I have 85% chances to fail it cause I don't have any experience of pilotage ???

Thanks for your reply

Steven


----------



## SupersonicMax

Inch said:
			
		

> All pilots currently go through Moose Jaw on the Harvard II which is equipped with a Martin Baker Mk 16 ejection seat. There are however, trials about to be done with an extended PFT course leading right into the Jet Ranger. I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of that, but I've been told the trial course will be running this fall.



I think it is running right now.  I have a friend on PFT right now that was selected to do the Extended version to stream to Helos.  A

And it's the Mk16L 

Max


----------



## ark

steven18 said:
			
		

> Not that I have the vision to apply, i'd like to know if there's any tips for the navigating personel test and the simulator. The recruiter told me that for the navigating 1/6 pass it and for the simulator I have 85% chances to fail it cause I don't have any experience of pilotage ???



Before you think about the cognitive screening in Trenton, you should concentrate on passing your interview. As it was pointed in another thread, the score needed for pilots is now much higher than it used to be so you need to be well above average if you want to be recommended.

You can always use the magical search button to find what you are looking for.

Good Luck


----------



## Rowshambow

A friend of mine sent me this today!
there is a link, but couldn't post it from here!

In summary entry ( selection) vision standards for:

Pilots and SAR: V2-no refractive standard
ANAV, AEC and FEs V3 no refractive standard
The Chief of Air Staff approved these recommendations on 18 June 2007 and Flight Surgeon guidelines and Medical Standards for CF aircrew have been amended.  

Hope this helps.  Good luck on your trg!!


----------



## steven18

ark said:
			
		

> the score needed for pilots is now much higher than it used to be so you need to be well above average if you want to be recommended.



I did 1 interview to get in the reserve 4 years ago and 2 others last year to apply for other trades in reg force and for my transfert in army reserve and i was recommanded in all navo air force, G aero, airfield engineer and EME so i don't think i have to worry if i'll be recommanded...i know their shits lol and I know what they want to hear!

Anyway, i'll go the airport next to my city they give pilotage courses...i'll have a private license after 8 weeks of training and one writing exam as well as 1 pratical exam..so after that i think i'll be fine for their test!


----------



## SupersonicMax

steven18 said:
			
		

> I did 1 interview to get in the reserve 4 years ago and 2 others last year to apply for other trades in reg force and for my transfert in army reserve and i was recommanded in all navo air force, G aero, airfield engineer and EME so i don't think i have to worry if i'll be recommanded...i know their shits lol and I know what they want to hear!
> 
> Anyway, i'll go the airport next to my city they give pilotage courses...i'll have a private license after 8 weeks of training and one writing exam as well as 1 pratical exam..so after that i think i'll be fine for their test!



First, I suggest you remove the wings as your avatar 

You might be fine for the ACS, but also think long term.  ACS is only the first step.  There are many other steps before you get to your avatar....

Max


----------



## Nfld Sapper

New Vision Standards for CF Aircrew Candidates

News Release
New Vision Standards for CF Aircrew Candidates
Air Force / Force aérienne - NR 07.004 - July 25, 2007

OTTAWA – Canada’s Air Force has recently approved updated vision standards for aircrew candidates. 

Under the new standards, applicants who wear glasses or contact lenses to provide modest correction to their vision are now eligible for consideration, whereas previously, applicants required uncorrected vision. The decision to adjust the minimum vision standard is based on the findings of a scientific review by a third party contractor with oversight from Defence Research and Development Canada (DRDC). 

“The updated standards are based on scientific measurements that more accurately reflect the reality of operator requirements,” said Chief of Air Staff Medical Advisor, Captain (Navy) Cyd Courchesne. “This is good news for the Canadian Forces as well as for many aircrew candidates, who in the past did not quite meet the previous vision standards.”

The previous standards were based on a Second World War-era policy that uncorrected vision was necessary to fly combat aircraft, however, this policy was not substantiated by scientific research. It was decided that the vision standard for aircrew candidates should be based on modern scientific testing in order to be as fair and as inclusive as possible to all those desiring to become Canadian Forces aircrew. 

Within the aircrew occupations, the new vision standards have the most impact for prospective pilots. There will be no change in the expected flying performance of pilots because of the adjusted standards.

Applicants who have had corrective (laser) eye surgery are not eligible for entry into the pilot occupation. 

The Canadian Forces has not had any difficulty attracting pilot applicants in the past several years. In the future, the new vision standard will result in a larger pool of applicants and a more competitive selection process. 

-30-

For further information, please contact:

Lieutenant Paul Finnemore
Air Force Public Affairs 
613-944-5841


----------



## Strike

CANFORGEN 128/07 CAS 033 251550Z JUL 07
CHANGES TO AIRCREW SELECTION STANDARDS
UNCLASSIFIED


REFERENCES: A. RODS APSC JULY 2005 
B. 1150-29 (AIR MED ADVISOR) 28 NOV 05 
C. 1150-1 (SSO AV MED) 10 JAN 07 
D. 6600-1 (AMA) 18 JUN 07 
E. A-MD-154-000/FP-000 (CFP 154) ANNEX A 



THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO COMMUNICATE RECENT CHANGES MADE TO AIRCREW SELECTION STANDARDS 


AT REF B, CAS ENDORSED THE RECOMMENDATION FROM THE AEROMEDICAL POLICY AND STANDARDS COMMITTEE (APSC) (REF A) TO APPROVE THE PILOT ANTHROPOMETRIC SELECTION TOOL (PAST) AS THE NEW METHODOLOGY TO DETERMINE PILOT CANDIDATE ANTHROPOMETRIC MEASUREMENTS. THIS REMOVED MANY OF THE RESTRICTIONS, ESPECIALLY FOR FEMALE APPLICANTS, THAT EXISTED WITH THE OLD ANTHROPOMETRIC STANDARDS. THIS METHODOLOGY HAS BEEN IN PLACE SINCE JAN 2006 WITH VERY POSITIVE RESULTS 


AT REF D, CAS ENDORSED NEW AIRCREW ENTRY VISION STANDARDS. THE NEW VISION STANDARDS FOR ENTRY INTO THE PILOT, NAVIGATOR, AEROSPACE ENVIRONMENT CONTROLLER AND FLIGHT ENGINEER OCCUPATIONS HAVE BEEN ADJUSTED. UNDER THE NEW STANDARDS, APPLICANTS WHO WEAR GLASSES OR CONTACT LENSES TO PROVIDE MODEST CORRECTION TO THEIR VISION ARE NOW ELIGIBLE FOR CONSIDERATION. PREVIOUSLY, APPLICANTS WERE REQUIRED TO HAVE UNCORRECTED VISION. PERSONNEL WITH CORRECTIVE (LASER) EYE SURGERY ARE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR ENTRY INTO THE CF PILOT OCCUPATION 


THOSE WHO HAVE APPLIED IN THE PAST BUT DID NOT MEET THE PREVIOUS VISION STANDARD ARE ENCOURAGED TO CONTACT THEIR PERSONNEL SELECTION OFFICER AND INQUIRE WHETHER THEY NOW QUALIFY TO RE-APPLY TO BECOME AIRCREW 


QUESTIONS ON THIS MATTER CAN BE DIRECTED TO CAS MED ADVISOR CAPT (N) COURCHESNE AT 613 995-4742 OR LCOL BAIN HEAD OF AEROSPACE AND UNDERSEA MEDICAL SECTION AT CFEME AT 416 635-2024
__________________


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## WannaBeFlyer

I saw that on DIN this morning but didn't have a chance to post it. (I told you someone would be me to it) I imagine there will be a sudden surge in Pilot applications in the next little while! Good luck to those who apply; they have waited a long time for this change.


----------



## Inch

MikeG said:
			
		

> I saw that on DIN this morning but didn't have a chance to post it. (I told you someone would be me to it) I imagine there will be a sudden surge in Pilot applications in the next little while! Good luck to those who apply; they have waited a long time for this change.



While there may be a surge, pilot production is pretty static. It just means it'll be more competitive. Good luck to those applying, I know I wouldn't have got in if I applied right now.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> It just means it'll be more competitive


Yes, the required score is high right now (as I found that out during my attempt to do a CT last month). That was before they announced the changes to the vision requirement. :-\  

I wonder if this will close the CEOTP door in the future because they will have more than enough applications coming through DEO and ROTP along with all of the various transfers...


----------



## Strike

Just picked this off the news wire.

PUBLICATION:  GLOBE AND MAIL 
IDN:  072080137 
DATE:  2007.07.27 
PAGE:  A4 (ILLUS) 
BYLINE:  TIM SHUFELT 
SECTION:  National News  
EDITION:  Metro 
DATELINE:   
WORDS:  465 
WORD COUNT:  425 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AIR FORCE Forces relax vision standards for new pilots Cockpit now open to those who need glasses or contacts, but critics say the move is simply to fill a recruiting shortage 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TIM SHUFELT The Canadian Air Force is lowering its minimum standards for vision, opening the cockpit to those traditionally disqualified for needing glasses or contact lenses. 

The Department of National Defence said the policy change was prompted by an independent scientific study and has nothing to do with the military's personnel shortage. 

Liberal foreign affairs critic Ujjal Dosanjh said he doesn't completely buy that. 

"*I suspect this is more related to the fact that we're finding it difficult to recruit as many new people into the military as this government promised*," Mr. Dosanjh said. "Therefore, the requirements are being eased." Air Force spokesman Lieutenant Paul Finnemore, however, said the restriction on bespectacled pilots dated to the Second World War, and had no scientific grounding. 

The study, commissioned by Defence Research and Development Canada, shows that pilots who need glasses or contacts for modest vision correction can safely operate military aircraft. 

*One military analyst said the announcement reflects a further watering down of the standards of fitness required to enlist in the Canadian Forces.* 

As of last October, applicants who fail the basic physical fitness test are no longer rejected, but turned over to trainers until they are whipped into shape before beginning basic training. 

*"So now you can get a 300-pound guy who can barely see," said Scott Taylor, publisher of the military affairs magazine Esprit de Corps. 

He also predicts a deterioration of the image of the combat pilot as an elite hotshot. "That's what it's been in the past: 'Be all you can be.' Now it's: 'Be all you can muster.' " Lt. Finnemore insisted the air force is not under the same recruiting pressures as much of the Canadian Forces, and this year's target remains unchanged at 70 to 80 new pilots. * 

It's not clear how much the pool of aspiring aviators will increase, he said, but it is possible the new policy could open the floodgates to a rush of applicants, including many military insiders who previously accepted their near-sighted plights and settled for jobs on the ground. 

Local recruiting centres across the country are prepared to deal with a surge in applications, and the increased competition will benefit the air force, Lt. Finnemore said. 

Those with corrected vision already qualify as commercial pilots in Canada and the United States. 

Having undergone laser-eye surgery will still disqualify hopefuls from the air force, however. But that could soon change as well once continuing studies into the procedure are completed, Lt. Finnemore said. 

The U.S. Air Force, on the other hand, announced in May it would begin considering applicants who have had laser surgery to meet the minimum vision requirements. 

After further research, the USAF will decide whether to revise its other vision standards. 



It might be difficult to recruit, but it never has been hard to fill the pilot spots.

As for Mr Taylor's remarks, it smacks of someone who is bitter that they couldn't make the cut for the trade (Not that he ever tried.  That's just what it sounds like.).


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> "I suspect this is more related to the fact that we're finding it difficult to recruit as many new people into the military as this government promised," .... "Therefore, the requirements are being eased."


 Pfffff. Yes, there is very little competition right now; it has been a cake walk thus far. In fact, they were begging me to ink the offer from the moment I said "Pilot". The Recruiters were fighting over me like used car salesmen. :



> "So now you can get a 300-pound guy who can barely see," said Scott Taylor, publisher of the military affairs magazine Esprit de Corps.


MmmmHmmm. Literally tons of applicants who have cadet experience, degrees/aviation diplomas, hours of flying, various ratings/experience, who volunteer with various organizations and served in the Reserves for X amount of years but the CF decided instead to enroll the Homer Simpsons and Jim 'Wash Out' Pfaffenbach's of Canada.

Just did the vision acuity test today and I had quite the interesting conversation with the Opthalmologist on this very subject but, I'll just hang on to that. I think it is going to bring a lot of really good applications the CF's way (not that they didn't already have them!). Again, good luck to those who are going to apply.


----------



## DaveTee

I've applied to be a pilot recently. Just asking something that popped up on this thread in a side note. A few posts mentioned applicants with previous flight experience or even pilots licences prior to applying. My question is does someone with very limited flight experience (I did the glider program with cadets, but broke my finger 10 flights away from finishing and got sent home) have a chance against applicants who already hold full fledged certifications and licences?


----------



## kincanucks

DaveTee said:
			
		

> I've applied to be a pilot recently. Just asking something that popped up on this thread in a side note. A few posts mentioned applicants with previous flight experience or even pilots licences prior to applying. My question is does someone with very limited flight experience (I did the glider program with cadets, but broke my finger 10 flights away from finishing and got sent home) have a chance against applicants who already hold full fledged certifications and licences?


Experience in recruiting has shown me that previous flying experience/certification is not a guarantee to being selected for pilot and sometimes it can be a hindrance, as the applicant thinks they know too much.  Good Luck.


----------



## ROBERTTT

Hello, I want to start by thanking all board moderators and all other regular folk who take the time to answer questions from guys like me.

So here is my story, I'll try to keep it short: 

I am a 29 year old DEO applicant with choice  1.Pilot  2.Anav
I went to Trenton for ACS in June 07, passed both Pilot and Anav exams then to Toronto where medicals were also fine.

I have a Private pilot’s license, few years of working experience in the aviation industry, along with a well balanced extra curricular/volunteer background.

Few days ago I received a call from the selection officer, which conducted my interview several months ago, and asked if I would take Anav, since my file/officer score is below the current minimums for Pilot. Obviously extremely surprised as I had already been recommended by her for the position after my interview, I asked why, and she said that last month the score for Pilots had been drastically raised. As it stands now, I have been selected for Anav and will receive another call with the details (it seems that sept course at St Jean is full) 

Can anyone of you in the recruiting community explain to me what the h**l is going on regarding the current pilot scores (there are still 20 DEO positions left) and how is it possible to jerk an applicant like that around? Once I have been selected and merit listed, shouldn't it be based on whatever the requirements were when I applied and when I was recommended, we are talking a few months ago not years? And if the score has changed then isn't it logical that it should affect applicants from that point onward? How is it possible that an applicant that has a university degree, flying experience and a Pilots license, passed both the Pilot and Anav exams at ACS in Trenton as well as the medicals in Toronto and still does not get selected???????

Now, I am not sure what to do, if I should take Anav or try to raise my file score for pilot. If I would have failed Trenton or had trouble with medicals or there was no more positions left- that I can accept, but how do I accept that I passed everything and my file score was strong enough to be selected last month and suddenly its not any more?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## George Wallace

If I may; you are an applicant.  An applicant for a job.  It is not a "right".  Like any job, the "employer" will set the 'prerequisites' and has the 'right' to change them.  You are not entitled to become a pilot in the CF.  It is a job like any other.  You must apply and meet their prerequisites, and those prerequisites may change with the amount of applicants.  The "employer" after all wants to hire only the best of all the applicants.  If you can't beat out all the others, because the standards have risen in proportion to the number of applicants versus positions, then there is not much you can do or say to change things.


----------



## kincanucks

Sucks to be you.  Take ANAV or wait and apply for PILOT later or go and apply somewhere else.


----------



## weiss

May I speculate here too.  If you have options other than pilot you will never be offered pilot's "job".  I can understand recruiter's position on this - if the guy can settle for something else than so be it.  There are enough applicants who will never settle for anything else, so if they are not offered pilot's seat they are lost for CF altogether. That way they can hire more people with less trouble and fill less popular trades.  No reason to be upset - you are the one who wanted airnav, not the recruiter, its not like they force you into anything.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> Can anyone of you in the recruiting community explain to me what the h**l is going on regarding the current pilot scores (there are still 20 DEO positions left)


Well, there are only 20 spots available and it is early in the year. Second, they lowered vision requirements for Pilots from V1 to V2. They are probably going to receive more Pilot applications than they did in previous years. It just makes sense, for now, to set the bar high and allow the applications accumulate so that they can select the best possible candidates for those 20 spots.


----------



## Elwood

Hey Roberttt,

I totally know how that feels, man. I just declined an offer for amroured officer to keep going for pilot. An MCC warned me that I was a few points shy of being competitive for the pilot MOC and that I should just join now and transfer out of the army later.

I agree that it would feel a lot better being cut at ACS or during the medicals than finding out that you're fit and have the aptitude to pass CF pilot training, but were just a couple interview points short from being selected. If it feels any better for you, two CEOTP candidates on my ASC got offers for pilot, whereas the two DEO's did not. I guess they had an edge because they were fresh out of air cadets, whereas us DEOs were spending most of our time studying in university. It's funny too, because I see a couple CEOTP applicants who got pilot, but often place poorly-written posts on this forum. 

I guess people in our situation can really just change our only choice to pilot, do an updated interview, and see what happens.


----------



## Astrodog

Elwood said:
			
		

> I agree that it would feel a lot better being cut at ACS or during the medicals than finding out that you're fit and have the aptitude to pass CF pilot training, but were just a couple interview points short from being selected.


Are you f'n nuts? Why would it feel better having NO chance rather than having an opportunity to quit complaining and do what it takes to get your ass in a CF seat?? I got rejected TWICE before I got in, and not once did I bitch about the system. I got right back on the saddle to try and figure out how the hell I get in.


> I guess they had an edge because they were fresh out of air cadets, whereas us DEOs were spending most of our time studying in university.


Oh yeah, that must be it... I think they'll probably let them bypass BFT too because they have glider training! I'm pretty sure more time in university gives you a higher score in the matrix, whether you maximized your time at university by getting involved in extra-curricular stuff that the CF is looking for is your problem.


> It's funny too, because I see a couple CEOTP applicants who got pilot, but often place poorly-written posts on this forum.


No comment.

  The long and the short of it is that these are coveted seats; it would take a civi his entire career to get a seat on a C-17, I know a fellow who just got a seat out of the pipeline. The CF has every RIGHT to maximize the utility of those they put in their seats. If you didn't get in you have to choices: Shut up and move on or Shut up and make yourself better.


----------



## Remius

For Elwood and Robertt.  Why did you put in armoured or air nav as a choice if you never intended on taking those choices in the first place?  And don't put too much stock in your University studies.  It takes a lot more than a degree in criminology or business admin to fly a plane.  Maybe those "air cadets" demonstrated better leadership qualities and presented themselves better at the interview than you did.  Maybe they scored higher on the CFAT and did better at ASC than you did showing more potential to be a pilot.  While your degree is good it is not the be all end all to be an officer in the CF much less a pilot.  Instead of focusing on what the "others" have or don't have and focus on yourselves maybe you'll do better next time.

Good luck.


----------



## medaid

Elwood said:
			
		

> If it feels any better for you, two CEOTP candidates on my ASC got offers for pilot, whereas the two DEO's did not. I* guess they had an edge because they were fresh out of air cadets, whereas us DEOs were spending most of our time studying in university.* It's funny too, because I see a couple *CEOTP applicants who got pilot, but often place poorly-written posts on this forum.*



Elwood... seeing your background info... We're not too different. I too came from Air Cadets, and I too did sometime in a PRes Med Unit before I became an officer. So... as a fellow brother officer who shares so much with you, let me tell you one thing. Please stop talking out of your AXX, as you have just proven to the rest of the forum, and indeed most of the CF, that DEO applicants who got pilot, often place poorly-written posts on this forum as well. 

And... PUH LEASE... don't pull that DEO's are toooooo busy crap. As Crantor said, if you CAN'T manage your time and do some extra stuff on the side? [In Mock Horror] I can't imagine how we PRes officers ever find the time to study AND serve at the same time!  

There's also a reason why you were given 2nd and 3rd choices on your application. Because you might not get your first choice, as I always tell my applicants, please think about what else you want to do. Because failing THAT, you might just get 2nd or 3rd. Think hard. THINK!!!


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## mudrecceman

Crantor said:
			
		

> For Elwood and Robertt.  Why did you put in armoured or air nav as a choice if you never intended on taking those choices in the first place?  And don't put too much stock in your University studies.  It takes a lot more than a degree in criminology or business admin to fly a plane.  Maybe those "air cadets" demonstrated better leadership qualities and presented themselves better at the interview than you did.  Maybe they scored higher on the CFAT and did better at ASC than you did showing more potential to be a pilot.  *While your degree is good it is not the be all end all to be an officer in the CF much less a pilot.*  Instead of focusing on what the "others" have or don't have and focus on yourselves maybe you'll do better next time.
> 
> Good luck.



IMHO, nothing else needs to be said on this one...sums it up nicely.

Look in the mirror folks.  Point the finger at THAT person...not the CF.


----------



## ROBERTTT

OK guys, since I started the post, I have been carefully reading all replies, but it seems no one quite knows what's going on.

In this case let me give you a quick heads up.

The Pilot trade is currently closed at least for DEO; closed as in no new applications are being accepted at all. There are plenty already in the system. And to make matters worse, like I had already said in my first post, the entry minimum score (i.e. you need at least that score to be merit listed) has been drastically raised.

Since no one hit the nail on the head, I will explain the score differential I am talking about: NOTE (this is only for DEO applicants)

------> The entry minimum score (i.e. you need at least that score to be merit listed) for DEO Pilot applicants has been drastically raised, how much you ask, by 40%. Yes that's right, 40%. Now for those who still don't see how much of a difference that is, here is an EXAMPLE. (I will not use the real score numbers as they are not for public knowledge) 

SAY before the score change the minimum needed to be _merit listed_ was 120 total points for the DEO pilot trade (144 for ANAV) (file score -- aptitude test, ACS, medical, interview etc.) Now after the change...... you need 168 total points for DEO Pilot trade!!! (Keep in mind that average score of all merit listed DEO pilot applicants is say about 132). And Yes for those who did notice above, the min score for Pilot was way lower then that for Anav.

My score was above the average for pilot (i have been selected for Anav) however lower then the CURRENT pilot minimum.

To sum up the reason scores have been raised is because Borden wants try and reduce the current, at least 1 year waiting time period, training backlog.

I hope this information really serves as a heads up for all current pilot applicants. 

merit listed (definition) -- meaning your file is complete and you have met minimum requirements for the position and have been added to a list with all other applicants who are all ready for selection. So say there are 3 available spots for that trade, however there are 5 applicants on the merit list. So at time of selection the selection officer will pick the top 3 scoring applicants of the 5 merit listed.


----------



## mudrecceman

Maybe the CF has a bigger requirement to fill ANAV slots.

So they have to "funnel" people to where they are needed.

Remember, in the big picture, they have to do a big balancing act with aircrew trades like all other trades.

Tanks can't roll without qualified and trained commanders.

Seakings don't fly with just pilots alone.

Could be as simple as that...


----------



## BC Old Guy

Yes, there has been direction to restrict pilot intake, since we have 20 or fewer positions available for enrolment.  The recruiting centres have been given very specific guidelines for starting the process on new applicants.  There are a number of other Air Force operations jobs available, such as Air Nav and AEC.  Each have specific requirements, which some people meet, and others don't.  

As well, there is a need for officers in a number of other occupations - including Artillery, Armoured, Signals, Navy (MARS) and Infantry amongst others.

Obviously, the people who made the decision to change the requirements expect that we will be able to fill the training vacancies with the new requirements.  If something happens so that the remaining target is not filled, it will not be hard to revise the requirments again, and fill the remaining Pilot target.  I have 14 Pilots that are Merit Listed for enrolment.  4 have offers, and will be enrolled for the Sep courses.  Another 4 could have been hired on the current and previous scoring guidelines, but don't meet all the current requirements - which go beyond a simple score.  With 500+ applications in the system, I expect the other CFRCs have the same distribution of people who want to become pilots and would be very good pilots (at least in our opinion), but there just aren't enough Pilot jobs for everyone who wants this occupation.  

I don't think this will change next year - but I've been wrong before.

The Recruiting Centre wants you to have a job, that's why the staff are trying to see what else you are interested in, and what your education and aptitudes indicate would be a good fit.  

Hope this helps.


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## ROBERTTT

Thank you for clearing the topic and answering my question.

I wish my application had gone via CFRC Vancouver.   

In order to have received a concise answer as such, from my local CFRC, I feel I would have had to bribe people. ;D (pun intended)

Thank you once again!


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## WannaBeFlyer

If one is merit listed but not selected in 2007 and he or she intends on applying for Pilot again in 2008, is it simply a matter of reapplying and updating their interview in 2008?(provided of course, that his or her medical is still valid.) Or would it be handled differently?


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## BC Old Guy

Check with your local CFRC.  When the new year (1 Apr +) targets are opened, the CFRC needs to attach you to the new year merit list.  All of us are trying to manage expectations, and need to look at your personal circumstances and see how they compare to the criteria set out by HQ, and the number of vacancies that are available.


----------



## freekers

Hi everyone, 
I know there are people out there hoping that vision requirement change concerning LASIK and/or PRK laser refractive surgeries (LRS), the same way as US Air Force changed its policy in May of this year. 
I directly contacted DND and I had an very interesting answer on that matter from Cdr (ret'd) Gary Gray, MD, PhD, FRCPC. 
Here is what he told me :

"The Canadian Forces have been investigating laser refractive surgery for
aircrew for several years. We conducted a study of LRS for non-pilot
aircrew, and as a result have approved LRS for non-pilot aircrew. We are
aware of the USAF decision to allow LRS for pilot aircrew, and of the
extensive research that preceded that decision. Col (ret'd) Doug Ivan,
former Chief of Ophthalmology at USAFSAM headed up this research and is
a regular lecturer here. 

The CF is looking carefully at the possibility of extending LRS for CF
pilots. A Workshop is scheduled for this September to develop a new
policy. "

I will contact him again after september to have an update of the situation. I just had lasik last week and I had 20/20 the next morning,  ;D and going to improve according to the surgeon...!

Anyway I still have hopes, and I know other people do, so I wanted to share this slice of hope. 

Anyway, in your opinion, is it better to have a pilot complying with V2 standards and needing glasses/contact lenses, or a pilot having at least 20/20 stabilized vision after LRS?...I am pretty sure the policy will change, but when is more the question...


----------



## Rick Ruter

MG said:
			
		

> Yes, the required score is high right now (as I found that out during my attempt to do a CT last month). That was before they announced the changes to the vision requirement. :-\
> 
> I wonder if this will close the CEOTP door in the future because they will have more than enough applications coming through DEO and ROTP along with all of the various transfers...



...MG, I think DEO will definitely increase and may affect CEOTP but ROTP is a static number and I doubt it will change. We have a certain quota for RMC and Civ U. If the DEO applicants come en-mass then yes CEOTP should be reduced because right now I don't believe the Career Managers can monitor who will have their Degree completed before the end of their 9,10,11 years. DEO is much easier to manage.



			
				DaveTee said:
			
		

> I've applied to be a pilot recently. Just asking something that popped up on this thread in a side note. A few posts mentioned applicants with previous flight experience or even pilots licences prior to applying. My question is does someone with very limited flight experience (I did the glider program with cadets, but broke my finger 10 flights away from finishing and got sent home) have a chance against applicants who already hold full fledged certifications and licences?



Dave Tee, flying experience will not necessarily help you through Portage, Moose Jaw and even ACS for that matter. It will however make you more competitive on the selection board. It's all about who gets the offer and who doesn't. The Selection guy at CFRG sites in front of hundreds of files and based on the score we (at the CFRC) give the applicant he/she selects the ones with the highest scores and work down until the quota is reached. Flying experience and knowing what the Pilot occupation does *in the CF* is +++ points. 8)


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## WannaBeFlyer

Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> ...MG, I think DEO will definitely increase and may affect CEOTP but ROTP is a static number and I doubt it will change. We have a certain quota for RMC and Civ U. If the DEO applicants come en-mass then yes CEOTP should be reduced because right now I don't believe the Career Managers can monitor who will have their Degree completed before the end of their 9,10,11 years. DEO is much easier to manage.


 Thank you Rick. I anticipated changes to both the DEO and CEOTP numbers in 2008, but I didn't think they would adjust the  ROTP numbers. I figured, if anything, that because of the recent announcement and the anticipated amount of applications, CEOTP would be closed in 2008 for 032. I was actually surprised to hear that it was open in early 2007. Thanks again.


----------



## Delicron

I am responding to this topic because I see a similarity in my position to Roberttt, I have a private pilot's licence, University Degree, some college flying experience, and I did well on the CFAT and interview (well above average according to the interviewer).  MY question is a little different though, unfortunately, after I did a good interview, I decided to schedule the medical as soon as I could: two days later in the morning.  I told the officer that since this wasn't ideal for me. I would phone before hand if this appointment would not work.  Of course, being my luck, my work would not let me go to the appointment, and I ended up not being able to call the recruiting center to let them know until an hour after the appointment.  I was highly embarrassed, and disappointed.  I called and apparently the officer I talked to put in a comment in my file saying that I had called and explained my predicament.  When I talked to the LSM who was my file manager, she made another appointment for me, but when I asked her if this would damage my file, she stated simply that if it happened again, my file would be closed for six months.  Now my question is, have I irreparably damaged my application to this highly competitive profession to the point I shouldn't even bother?  Or is this just a minor aberration that won't be noted unless it is repeated?  I am truly concerned I have wrecked my chances for this because of my current job... any thoughts on this would be appreciated...and hopefully I have found the right topic for this posting!


----------



## BC Old Guy

Each CFRC handles issues like this somewhat differently.  Keep in touch with the CFRC, and see how things work out. While we would prefer that a no-show call in ahead of time, in my opinion that is not a show stopper.  There are a lot of files in process at any CFRC at any time, and the staff try to keep the good applicants going.  If your file does get closed, ask to speak to the Commanding Officer, and explain your case and the circumstances.  Hopefully he will see things your way, and keep your file open.  Please note that just because he supports your case doesn't mean you will get an offer - it just means that your file would be considered in competition with the other files.  And the fact there was a hiccup or two during the process won't alter the final decision.


----------



## Delicron

Thank you for the great reply!  It does make me feel a lot better about it.  I was sweating pretty hard yesterday.  I do realize that getting the actual offer still depends on my quality as a candidate, but I didn't want this to ruin my whole career.  I have always been focused on flying and hopefully I can make it through the process to get where I need to be.  However, I have put MARS on that application as well (as I wouldn't mind doing it if it would be "impossible" for me to be a pilot).  But I'm worried that since it's a 'distressed trade' as they call it, I would be only offered that profession.  I hope that isn't the case, but we will see!


----------



## koopa

I applied for pilot long time ago (November 2006). There were some delays because I was on some temporary medication and was finishing my schooling studies. I had gotten an appointment for ASC for September but after not having heard anything for a few months, I decided to call them the week before my appointment. 

They had told me the pilot trade was full. My ASC appointment was cancelled and they told me to call back in 6 months. I called back today and they told me my medical and interview had expired and that my only choice was to pick infantry. Kinda sucked cause if I had picked the August date, I would have gotten my chance at the ASC.

So my question is, has anyone else got this? Is the pilot trade really close for a while? (guessing until the next budget?)


----------



## Kendrick

It's closed for at least the rest of the fiscal year.  You can either wait it out and try again at a later date, or move on to something else.  Depends how badly you want it.


----------



## steven18

I applied for pilot as my third choice cause I know that anyway i won't get it this year and there were only 2 trades that I wanted beside pilot.


----------



## kincanucks

steven18 said:
			
		

> I applied for pilot as my third choice cause I know that anyway i won't get it this year and there were only 2 trades that I wanted beside pilot.



And you won't be processed for it.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

So, if you have been waiting for an ASC date for a while, are they still going to process you or are you put on the shelf until next year? (I have been waiting for an ASC date since mid-September). I want to transfer within the Reserves, but I didn't want to proceed until I had more info on my CT. I guess I'll contact my File Manager. 

Thanks for the post and/or any extra info. I really appreciate it.


----------



## Kev4207

This thread was very informative! Thanks for the responses from everyone, they basically answered all my questions. I have a couple more that maybe someone could kindly answer. 
Is there anyway to predict how many DEO pilot slots might be open in 2010-11? (That's when I'm going to be graduating then from university)
What would be the most beneficial degree, I was going to get my BBA but didn't enjoy it at all. So I'm leaning towards history/pysch BA degree. Is this a bad decision? It just seems like lots of military aviators have either BBA and BS degrees. 

Any other suggestions or tips on that could increase my chances would be great.


----------



## Teej

Hi, this is my first post here. I'm 23 and I'm interested in becoming a fighter pilot via the DEO route (B.Sc. Mechanical Engineering), but my vision isn't 20/20. I don't wear glasses and don't need to for day-to-day life (including national level motorcycle racing), but during the eye exam for my driver's licence my distance vision was rated 20/30 uncorrected, and from comparing distance vision with others I am certain that my vision is indeed worse than 20/20. As I'm sure you're aware, the vision standards for CF pilots have recently been changed to allow up to 20/60 uncorrected. I would only pursue this career if there is a very real chance of becoming a fighter pilot specifically, so am wondering if my visual acuity would disqualify me or at least hinder my chances of getting a CF-18 slot. I understand that specific aircraft assignments are made only in the later stages of flight training, which would probably mean that one is "home-free" after passing the initial vision tests, but I'm wondering whether the vision issue would make it more difficult to obtain a fighter slot somewhere down the line. 
Another question: I understand that there is a minimum period for which one must serve the CF even if they fail to become a pilot; how far into the pilot training and selection process is it possible to "bail out" and leave the process with no obligations toward the CF? 
Thank you very much!


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Hi Teej.
  Welcome to the site. If you use the Search function you will find a lot of your concerns have been asked and answered before. As a new member belows are some help ful tips.

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Tone and Content on Army.ca: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Army.ca Wiki Recruiting FAQ - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
·	Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977 
·	Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Infantry Specific FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Google search of Army.ca - http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=+site%3Aarmy.ca+%22search+term%22&btnG=Search&meta= (follow the link then replace "search term" with what you are looking for)
Army.ca wiki pages 
 - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.

Milnet.Ca Staff


----------



## Bograt

Teej said:
			
		

> I would only pursue this career if there is a very real chance of becoming a fighter pilot specifically, so am wondering if my visual acuity would disqualify me or at least hinder my chances of getting a CF-18 slot. I understand that specific aircraft assignments are made only in the later stages of flight training, which would probably mean that one is "home-free" after passing the initial vision tests, but I'm wondering whether the vision issue would make it more difficult to obtain a fighter slot somewhere down the line.
> Another question: I understand that there is a minimum period for which one must serve the CF even if they fail to become a pilot; how far into the pilot training and selection process is it possible to "bail out" and leave the process with no obligations toward the CF?



Don't apply. The odds are that you will not become a fighter pilot.

2/3rds of applicants fail air crew selection.
BOTC takes its toll.
PFT fails about 25% of applicants
BFT takes its toll. Those who finish are streamed to jet, helo, and multi (25, 50 and 25 percent roughly)
Phase III streams people to Instructor school or Phase IV Fighter lead in Training.
410 OTU ends its share of fighter dreams.

So the stats are against you.
--------------------

Still interested?

Well good, focus on the immediate goals. Talk to a recruiter. It is a long, hard road ahead- but if it was easy everyone would be one.


----------



## dimsum

They still need V1 for jets, no?  Or did that change as well?  Might wanna look into that before applying.


----------



## Command-Sense-Act 105

Teej said:
			
		

> national level motorcycle racing



I'm assuming road.  If so, what series did you race in?  What's your plate number?  What are you running?  Stats?

If not, what is it - dirt, drag, trials, supermotard?

Forget the pilot stuff, inquiring minds want to know about the motorcycles - the real deal.


----------



## armyvern

Chaps??

Pics??

Yes indeed, this inquiring mind wants to know.


----------



## Teej

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> I'm assuming road.  If so, what series did you race in?  What's your plate number?  What are you running?  Stats?
> 
> If not, what is it - dirt, drag, trials, supermotard?
> 
> Forget the pilot stuff, inquiring minds want to know about the motorcycles - the real deal.



I don't really want to relinquish my cushy anonimity on this site, but Parts Canada Superbike Championship, SV650 class.


----------



## Urban

I agree with Bograt. Don't go in with a fighters only focus, don't dismiss helicopters or the multi off hand.

If you search for some pilot related keywords on the forums there are some real gems of information. I'm not saying that fighters wouldn't be cool, but from the accounts of people who have been there and done that I hear that helicopters get the coolest flying AND get to fly the most! Multi engine pilots also get some wicked flying, just look up some Aurora videos on youtube, you'll see what I mean. Jet pilots on the other hand get to sweat buckets, withstand withering, *painful* g-forces and you can't even notice your going Mach 1.8 unless you look at your HUD.

I know I'm painting a bleak picture of jets here, but I don't think I've unfairly represented anything here (to my knowledge, none of this is first hand info).

Also yes 20/30 vision is indeed worse than 20/20 vision, but still qualifies for the pilot trade.


----------



## Teej

Bograt said:
			
		

> Don't apply. The odds are that you will not become a fighter pilot.
> 
> 2/3rds of applicants fail air crew selection.
> BOTC takes its toll.
> PFT fails about 25% of applicants
> BFT takes its toll. Those who finish are streamed to jet, helo, and multi (25, 50 and 25 percent roughly)
> Phase III streams people to Instructor school or Phase IV Fighter lead in Training.
> 410 OTU ends its share of fighter dreams.
> 
> So the stats are against you.
> --------------------
> 
> Still interested?
> 
> Well good, focus on the immediate goals. Talk to a recruiter. It is a long, hard road ahead- but if it was easy everyone would be one.



Sounds brutal, and thanks a lot for the info. I was wondering though if I would encounter difficulties ABOVE AND BEYOND those encountered by someone with 20/20 vision (given that now the vision standard does accomodate me), and secondly, how far into this selection process can I drop out without further commitment to the CF? Thanks!


----------



## Urban

Teej said:
			
		

> Sounds brutal, and thanks a lot for the info. I was wondering though if I would encounter difficulties ABOVE AND BEYOND those encountered by someone with 20/20 vision (given that now the vision standard does accomodate me), and secondly, how far into this selection process can I drop out without further commitment to the CF? Thanks!



Pilots are officers first and pilots second, keep that in mind.

I want to say that you could drop before you get your wings, but you'll want to confirm that. I do know you may be obligated to repay the forces for the training you received.

Edit: small grammatical correction.


----------



## Teej

Urban said:
			
		

> I agree with Bograt. Don't go in with a fighters only focus, don't dismiss helicopters or the multi off hand.
> 
> If you search for some pilot related keywords on the forums there are some real gems of information. I'm not saying that fighters wouldn't be cool, but from the accounts of people who have been there and done that I hear that helicopters get the coolest flying AND get to fly the most! Multi engine pilots also get some wicked flying, just look up some Aurora videos on youtube, you'll see what I mean. Jet pilots on the other hand get to sweat buckets, withstand withering, *painful* g-forces and you can't even notice your going Mach 1.8 unless you look at your HUD.
> 
> I know I'm painting a bleak picture of jets here, but I don't think I've unfairly represented anything here (to my knowledge, none of this is first hand info).
> 
> Also yes 20/30 vision is indeed worse than 20/20 vision, but still qualifies for the pilot trade.



I see, well I'm an adrenaline junkie so when I think of "cool flying" I think of aggressive maneuvering, low and fast, full power vertical climbs, rolls, loops, stuff like that. I don't really feel truly "alive" unless the adrenaline's going. However, I'm not a pilot so I don't know what these folks consider "cool flying," but I'd love to hear about it. I don't see the excitement in flying a load of cargo from point A to point B, or picking up a downed pilot with a helicopter. I mean, sure it's more exciting than the vast majority of other professions, but I don't see  how it could be compared to the fighter jet experience. I'm not trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about, I just don't know any better and I'd love to hear about it. I've been reading the boards for a while and while I've heard this angle before, I haven't heard the justification other than the helo and multli pilots getting more flying time. Thanks!


----------



## armyvern

Well, I sat in the cockpit on the way back from Alert once.  :-\

Must say though -- my adrenaline rushed much higher when dropping into DZ Hodgson.  

(note to my fellow mod ... my adrenaline just _may_ be higher in a whirlybird though!!)  ;D


----------



## Zoomie

Teej said:
			
		

> I see, well I'm an adrenaline junkie so when I think of "cool flying" I think of aggressive maneuvering, low and fast, full power vertical climbs, rolls, loops, stuff like that.



Our fighters don't do any of the above - they don't fly below 1000'AGL.  The rest of the stuff you mentioned is aerobatics - get yourself an aero rating and save 4 years of your life.


----------



## pipstah

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Our fighters don't do any of the above - they don't fly below 1000'AGL.  The rest of the stuff you mentioned is aerobatics - get yourself an aero rating and save 4 years of your life.



Thanks Zoomie for making me laught so hard today! I think I'll write that down just to remember that and pass that on!


----------



## dimsum

Teej said:
			
		

> I don't really feel truly "alive" unless the adrenaline's going.



Then, I think you'll feel VERY alive if you're a Sea King pilot trying to land on a deck in Sea State 6.  
Makes me shudder just thinking how they do it!  :-X


----------



## Bograt

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Then, I think you'll feel VERY alive if you're a Sea King pilot trying to land on a deck in Sea State 6.
> Makes me shudder just thinking how they do it!  :-X



What other option do they have? It is amazing how death focuses the mind.


----------



## Elwood

Hey Teej,

Don't worry so much, especially if you haven't done ACS. On top of facing the 66% failure rate at ACS, not everyone who passes gets an offer for pilot. Out of the four who passed at my ACS, 2 got pilot, and 2 got their second choice. Being a DEO puts you at a slight advantage over CEOTP applicants, but it's not a huge gap.

Just apply and see how things go. Last year, a lot of pilots were selected between April and May, so you might want to get your application in soon if you haven't already!

Best of luck.


----------



## Loachman

Bograt said:
			
		

> It is amazing how death focuses the mind.



The potential for embarrassment focuses it even more.


----------



## Inch

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Then, I think you'll feel VERY alive if you're a Sea King pilot trying to land on a deck in Sea State 6.
> Makes me shudder just thinking how they do it!  :-X



You forgot to add, at night, without NVG's, with a brand new copilot and two low fuel lights.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Inch said:
			
		

> You forgot to add, at night, without NVG's, with a brand new copilot and two low fuel lights.



If you crash do you have a Reset button???

Teej, what I suggest you is to take it one step at the time (starting by ACS), keep your options open (you have the same wings in the end, wether you fly Multis, Helos or Jets), keep asking for what you want and nothing else (don't let people influence you if it's REALLY what you want) and work HARD.  Don't get discouraged even if things get hard.  

Max


----------



## Ali G

Biggest tip for ACS from what I've read:

Follow the instructions word-for-word.


----------



## Strike

Ali G said:
			
		

> Biggest tip for ACS from what I've read:
> 
> Follow the instructions word-for-word.



Ah yes...RTFQ.


----------



## AeroFighter

Since this thread is all about becoming a pilot I've got 3 months of highschool left and want to join up with the airforce. Now my marks aren't the greatest because I've been slacking too much this year but I'm passing everything and should finish with average or better marks. Anyway just wanted to hear some opinions on the best way to go to become a pilot. I'd prefer to be an F-18 pilot but wouldn't mind helo or multi aslong as I'm flying. 

I'm also in the process of joining the reserves but I'm definantly going to talk to a recruiter about becoming a pilot in the reg force.


----------



## Inch

AeroFighter said:
			
		

> Since this thread is all about becoming a pilot I've got 3 months of highschool left and want to join up with the airforce. Now my marks aren't the greatest because I've been slacking too much this year but I'm passing everything and should finish with average or better marks. Anyway just wanted to hear some opinions on the best way to go to become a pilot. I'd prefer to be an F-18 pilot but wouldn't mind helo or multi aslong as I'm flying.
> 
> I'm also in the process of joining the reserves but I'm definantly going to talk to a recruiter about becoming a pilot in the reg force.



There are a ton of threads with very valuable info in this forum. Suggest you have a read since all the info has been posted before.


----------



## Elwood

Try to get into aviation college, or get a university degree and build up your flight hours.

With the recent amount of applicants for pilot, it seems that the determining factor is hours you log in an A/C.


----------



## Strike

Elwood said:
			
		

> With the recent amount of applicants for pilot, it seems that the determining factor is hours you log in an A/C.



Given that the hours someone has in their log book doesn't necessarily mean success on the course, I find that hard to believe.  I know more than a few who have shown up with zero hours and topped every aspect of their training, beating out guys with commercial licences.


----------



## Elwood

I know having flight hours before training doesn't mean much. Even I had only a couple hours when I went to ACS, and passed when a guy with a commercial lisence failed.

What I am saying is that you do get points in the recruiting process for having trade-related experience (hence for pilot, flight time). With so many applicants for the pilot MOC, a big determining factor is an applicants flight experience.


----------



## dimsum

Having a CPL *will* help you on the training system though.  People with CPLs are bypassing Portage and sent straight to Moose Jaw.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Having a CPL *will* help you on the training system though.  People with CPLs are bypassing Portage and sent straight to Moose Jaw.



So, you are implying that bypassing PFT will help you in Moose Jaw?  How your PFE will help you depends largely on you and your attitude towards the course and your PFE.  If you think you're Shit Hot because you have 200 hours on Cessna's and a few multi hours, that won't bring you very far.  Actually, I personally know someone that had an ATPL license that almost failed the course on the Instrument Flying phase!  

If you have a mindset that they can't teach you anything new that isn't going to work.  However, if you are willing to learn everything they teach you and relate to your PFE to help you understand better, I personally think that's the way to go.

Max


----------



## Astrodog

I think he's implying it will get you out of the YEAR long wait for PFT, which I am currently so fortunate enough to be beginning. Wait for MJ for those with PFT bypass is only 6mo or less...


----------



## Lunder

Hi all

I been reading and searching for information on pilot for a few weeks now and im quiet sure i have most of my questions answered.  However there is one question i have that i cannot anser. I know that physical fitness is a large part of being in the military and i was easily able to pass the physical test when i applied. I was just wondering if Pilots have a specific fitness requirement that is above and beyond the basic 2.4 in under 12. currently i am doing 4.5 km in 22 min would that pass the requirements? obviously im striving for better but like I am just wondring if there is a criteria guide i could analyize. Any kind of link or direction to pilot specific fitness would be appreciated. Thanks


----------



## dimsum

Pilots have the same PT requirements as the rest of the CF (not including Battle Fitness Test).  The 2.4km run isn't actually used in the testing process; a 20 meter shuttle run is used instead.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Lunder, just get in the best possible shape and frame of mind you can for IAP/BOTP or whatever it is called now without overdoing it. Good luck!


----------



## jzaidi1

I've used the body-for-life method for getting into shape quickly and safely.  There is an emphasis on diet AND exercise.  Never mind the malarky regarding supplements like whey.  If your diet is well-balanced you won't need supplements.  Great for building muscle and cardiovasular health.  It works!!

Weight training guide - http://bodyforlife.com/exercise/weighttraining.asp
Cardio guide - http://bodyforlife.com/exercise/cardiotraining.asp
Diet guide - http://bodyforlife.com/nutrition/guidelines.asp
**Remember - dig deep on the website to learn more

J


----------



## zorro

I wouldn't worry too much about PT.

As long as your in decent shape (which can be attained with a minimal level of physical activity) you'll be fine. The first couple weeks of IAP will be a shock for your system but you will adapt and overcome.

Good luck.


----------



## EStrike101

You know how we somtimes have Australian fighter pilot flying with us?  Just wondering of we have any of our guys over in Australia.

I'm trying to get the F18s slot, I want to know the benifit of flying it. I want to fly F16 and F15 but I know I cant because I'm not American. Is there a way the I can serve other allied airforce for a certain years then come back? is there even such thing?

sorry to ask stupid question, its been bugging me... : 

and have anyone been to BCIT airline operation course?


----------



## jzaidi1

Hey,

The only way I can see anyone serving for Allied nations as a pilot would be to either have citizenship of that country, parents have citizenship of that country OR marry a citizen of that country and become one yourself.  Like all Allied Nations - there are more applicants than slots and would probably look internally first before reaching out to other Allied countries.

Best to stick with Canada is that is all you can apply for.  If your parents were born in Britain - go there and declare yourself son/daughter of a past british citizen and you should be able to get in.  See article on one Canadian who joined British Air force - http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/05/23/pilot-award.html.

J


----------



## Welshy

Canada has exchange programs with other countries. If you are referring to pilots wearing foreign flight suits working in the CF, those would be the pilots that are part of the program. So yes you could potentially fly for the Americans. I do not know the details about the exchange program, but I wouldn't imagine too many pilots go on exchange.


----------



## jzaidi1

Welshy,

I assume the fellow was referring to joining other Airforces because our own have very limited intake.  I'd go ahead and apply for Pilot with the British Airforce under the Commonwealth citizenship program but I do have a wife and family/friends residing in Canada...so it's not practical for me.

If you look at the article link I mentioned above you'll find that the CF could have had a very talented Pilot but decided to turn him away - now he is a war hero in Britain and probably can pick and choose what/where he wants to work next in the Commonwealth.

J


----------



## jzaidi1

Correcting one mistake from above message to Welshy...if I were under the age of 23 I would have "tried" to apply for the RAF as a Pilot.  Now I wouldn't be able to apply because of wife, friends and family (plus I am over the age of intake).

J


----------



## Welshy

Well, I was talking about Canadians joining the CAF and working as pilot then going on an exchange with other countries. We swap pilots, so if we sent a Canadian Pilot to Australia, then the Australians would send one of theirs. That is one way of flying for other countries, but from what I understand it is not easy to get on the exchange program.


----------



## EStrike101

I meant exchange but anyway.


Why is it hard to do exchange? how do I do it when im in the airforce. 

Do you think I will  fly F35 in sted of F18?  I'm 15 now and im going to join when im 19. By the time I get my wing I would only serve on the hornet for a few years then gonna have to switch...


What is the best thing to fly after the hornet?


----------



## SupersonicMax

EStrike101:  I suggest you go 1 step at the time.  At your age, I was probably as eager as you to fly the Hornet.  10 years later, I'm still in training and yes, a lot of people washed out and no, not everybody that wanted jets got it. Saying you will fly the Hornet at your stage is a very bold statement in my opinion!

As to what's the best thing to fly, it depends on preference.  

Cheers!

Max


----------



## EStrike101

Its a bold  statement alright. 


Just wanted to know whats going to happen with the airforce so I make good decision to join or not.


You said youre in training, whats that like?  If youre in the airforce.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I'm in pilot training, on the Hawk.  Training is relatively hard, very structured, and extremely rewarding. I can't say anything else than I love it.

Max


----------



## EStrike101

Awsome. That thing is probably as fun to fly as the 18s.


Could you tell me the rate of people that got in and people that failed?



What was youre average mark in Highschool?  during grade 11 and 12.


----------



## jzaidi1

My guess is that SuperSonic had pretty high marks in Gr 11 & 12 - especially math and physics.  Equally as important is the athletics and well-rounded extracurricular activities.  It's the CFAT, Medical and Aircrew selection that ultimately determines whether your in or out.

J


----------



## aesop081

Fireball said:
			
		

> My guess is that SuperSonic had pretty high marks in Gr 11 & 12 - especially math and physics.  Equally as important is the athletics and well-rounded extracurricular activities.  It's the CFAT, Medical and Aircrew selection that ultimately determines whether your in or out.
> 
> J



I'm going to guess that supersonicmax can speak for himself. I'm also going to guess that someone who has actualy been accepted for pilot or a recruiter would be the best person to speak about entry requirements.


----------



## Good2Golf

EStrike101 said:
			
		

> I meant exchange but anyway.
> 
> 
> Why is it hard to do exchange? how do I do it when im in the airforce.
> 
> Do you think I will  fly F35 in sted of F18?  I'm 15 now and im going to join when im 19. By the time I get my wing I would only serve on the hornet for a few years then gonna have to switch...
> 
> 
> What is the best thing to fly after the hornet?



Given that the wording of your question rules out any choppers (since, IMO, they are significantly better than the Hornet to fly  ;D ), I would then say any slow lumbering transport aircraft would be alright...   >

Of course you will get a variety of answers on what is the "best" aircraft to fly, based on every pilot's own experiences.  I did OJT at 441 Sqn and had a fair bit of back-seat time in the 18, but still to this day would choose to go helos in a heartbeat.  Flying feet off the ground in the middle of the dark at 200+ km/h can be pretty spicy!  "À chacun son propre goût."

Regarding the exchange programs, there is a selection process based on an individual's performance, both on his/her aircraft type, but also on their conduct and comportment.  This is especially important as exchange pilots not only capture interoperability issues, but they represent Canada abroad, as well -- mini-ambassadors if you will -- so the "whole package" counts.  

G2G


----------



## SupersonicMax

EStrike101 said:
			
		

> Awsome. That thing is probably as fun to fly as the 18s.
> 
> 
> Could you tell me the rate of people that got in and people that failed?
> 
> 
> 
> What was youre average mark in Highschool?  during grade 11 and 12.



I had good marks through all my education.  Low 90s in high school.  There are a lots of people here that had lower marks than that, but with the pool of applicant that there is right now, it certainly doesn't hurt I imagine.  I did a lot of volunteering and I was involved in cadets.  For sports, I was playing a lot of hockey and badminton.  Marks in a particular subject doesn't make any difference IMHO. While I do think that having abilities in physics and maths and having an engineering background (aeronautical especially) will help you understand some concepts, in the long run, it won't make you a better pilot. Flying isn't about what you can do in a classroom.

I joined when I was 16, went to Prep Year in St-Jean, then to RMC for 4 years.  I graduated with a Mech Eng Degree.  I did OJT at 402 Sqn in Winnipeg and I absolutely loved it.  Got to Moose Jaw on March 26th 2007 and Finished phase IIA on October 31st 2007.  I started phase III on February 11 2008 and here I am.  As far as my pilot progression, here it is:

On my Aircrew Selection, 4 got selected for pilot (out of 10 people).  1 was rejected for medical reasons, so that leaves 3.  On Primary Flight Training in Portage, we lost 4 out of 24.  I think this is pretty much average from what I've seen (maybe a little on the high side).  On Basic Flying Training, we started out with 8.  1 was recoursed for medical reasons, 2 decided that flying wasn't for them and 1 failed about mid course.  On the 4 that were left, I was the only one that wanted jets and the only one that got jets.  I did good on Phase IIA on the Harvard.  Flying marks are the biggest deciding factor in your selection, however, officer development (OD) can play a very important role (somebody got kicked out of the phase III course for OD, but apparently he actually deserved it).  OD can play it eighter way:  if your flying marks aren't the greatest but your OD is excellent, you might get what you want anyways, but the opposite is quite true as well.  Ground school marks are a non-issue mostly (not that it isn't important, but (almost) everybody gets a high-90 average).  Out of those that get jets, some will go instructor some will continue onto the F-18.  Lately, people that finished on the Hawk and wanted to go to Cold Lake got to go.  

This is pretty much what happened to me in a nutshell

SupersonicMax


----------



## Strike

> Marks in a particular subject doesn't make any difference IMHO. While I do think that having abilities in physics and maths and having an engineering background (aeronautical especially) will help you understand some concepts, in the long run, it won't make you a better pilot. Flying isn't about what you can do in a classroom.



Too right.  We had more than a few people on my course with an arts degree.  Sciences may not interest you in high school, but when you're learning the physics of flying and the science of combustion, something that is very important in your future career, things start to get very interesting and (dare I say) fun.  And that can make a huge difference in how well you do academically.



> Flying marks are the biggest deciding factor in your selection, however, officer development (OD) can play a very important role.  OD can play it either way:  if your flying marks aren't the greatest but your OD is excellent, you might get what you want anyways, but the opposite is quite true as well.



Seen that as well.  There was one such student (went pipe instructor and now flying Hornets) who had some difficulties in the Nav phase.  This was in the Tutor before the benefit of GPS.  ;D  We logged his distance flown in that phase (basic and advanced) and determined that he had flown from BC to NS and down to Florida.  But he had the drive and attitude and a great personality.  Fairly down to earth.


----------



## MaddogJR

Very VERY true. My dad went through Moose Jaw in '83 and he was ranked 3rd in Flying (born flyer what can I say) but last in Officer development and he didn't get his first choice (Fighter's F-18's still had new car smell) but went multi and put on the twin otter. In retrospect he had a great career flying the twin otter, Cosmo, Herc and airbus plus got a chance for an AETE postion and is now a first o for Zoom Airlines. I'm in ROTP and to be quite honest just getting to MJ is going to be a challenge so I'm not thinking about what I would like to fly after. If it was up to me I'd fly everything but that is just not possible. As for the fitting in the aircraft part of things, you have to pass ASC before you even get to the medical so I would focus on getting through that and if your too tall well you can control that part of things but you can control your ASC outcome. So give it your all and you'll never find out unless you try!


----------



## The Bread Guy

And at the very worst, know that not making it as a pilot is not the end of the world - it didn't seem to hold this chap back, after all  ;D :

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/55105.0.html

Best of luck in your endeavours!


----------



## jzaidi1

Not becoming a CF Pilot isn't the end of the world - I agree, however, it certainly does hurt when you are on the ground looking up at a pair of CF-18s streaking across the skies at 600 MPH.  Drives me nuts everytime...knowing that some fellow is living "my" dream.

J


----------



## The Bread Guy

Fireball said:
			
		

> Not becoming a CF Pilot isn't the end of the world - I agree, however, it certainly does hurt when you are on the ground looking up at a pair of CF-18s streaking across the skies at 600 MPH.  Drives me nuts everytime...knowing that some fellow is living "my" dream.
> 
> J



Can't deny that (been there, almost done that) - like losing a first love, though, it eventually goes away when you find your new passion.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Fireball said:
			
		

> Not becoming a CF Pilot isn't the end of the world - I agree, however, it certainly does hurt when you are on the ground looking up at a pair of CF-18s streaking across the skies at 600 MPH.  Drives me nuts everytime...knowing that some fellow is living "my" dream.
> 
> J



It's not your dream, but also the dream of the guy flying it.


----------



## snyper21

Hey guys, I'm from Montreal and for the past several months I've had a main focus in life and that was to become a pilot in the Canadian forces. Since that point in time I decided that this is what I want to pursue as a career, and a good amount of my free time has been spent researching our current fleet, the training process, and anything else pertaining to becoming a pilot in the CF. I'm always concerned with trying to improve my application to make me as competetitive as possible. I'm basically writing this post for some input and advice as to how good (or bad) of a candidite I'd be when selection comes around, and things I can improve on. So here goes a brief bio...

I just turned 21 and am attending Civi U at Concordia University (Economics major). My GPA is nothing to brag about being a 2.5. I've played many sports and activities my whole life. I started out playing soccer and being an all-star in houseleague (as a kid). I then played baseball as starting pitcher. After that I became captain of my hockey team and played center. I then got involved in snowboarding for a few years. About 7-8 years ago I discovered skateboarding, and was hooked ever since (until I started focusing my attention on becoming a pilot). I was very competitive for many years in skateboarding, it was my passion. I am currently volunteering as a 'big brother' to a 13 year old, and I go to the gym on a regular basis (3 times a week). I am also apart of a fraternity in my university. I am in excellent shape (160 lbs / pure muscle), and am approximately 5'10. I am planning on applying as a DEO in a year, because I graduate in 1.5 years. 

I am very passionate about things that I get involved in, and I am definately passionate about becoming a pilot. What concerns me is the fact that my university marks aren't so great, but I heard that it won't make/break me. Any input / advice would be amazing. Thanks for spending the time reading this drawn out message guys, very much appreciated.

Snyper


----------



## Zoomie

Marks at University are not a deal breaker - if you have the degree, you get a check in the box.

Stick with the extracurricular stuff - stay active in sports and volunteering.  You seem to have the well rounded application that they are looking for.  Get involved in some leadership activities around campus - this shows the CF that you have some potential.

Start your application now - you may be picked up early and put on LWOP while finishing school.  Alternatively, you may be picked up and the CF may decide to pay your last year and get you started early.


----------



## zorro

Some advice I'd give would be to try to get some flying lessons in, and if possible, get yourself a Rec. permit or PPL. It is definately an expensive endeavour to undertake, but besides looking good on your application it will offer you something to share with your friends/family for years to come. It shows that you have a genuine interest in flying, and will make you a more competitive applicant.

I was fortunate enough to have my education subsidized by the CF and therefore was able to invest the money I would have otherwise spent on tuition in flying. All said and done, getting my licence (just a basic PPL, no instrument or VFR-OTT endorsements....yet) rang me up about $8000-$9000. Best thing I have ever done by far, but I would never have been able to afford flying AND tuition.

Also, you can explore some different entry plans (IE. CEOTP, and ROTP). Just as Zoomie said, go in and speak with someone and get the ball rolling, because there may be an opportunity for you that you don't even know about yet.

Good luck.


----------



## Strike

Mods,

Can this please be merged with one of the many "I wanna be a pilot" threads out there?  Otherwise we're just going to get more of the same.


----------



## snyper21

Thanks for the quick responses guys. By the way what does LWOP mean?


----------



## Strike

Leave WithOut Pay


----------



## snyper21

Another question, does the fact that I go to Civi U as oppose to RMC for DEO put me at a disadvantage when it comes to selection boards? Also, (if you know) are DEO applicants prefered over an ROTP or CEOTP applicant? 

Thanks alot,

Snyper


----------



## PMedMoe

snyper21, try using the search function.  I'm sure most of your questions have been asked and answered here already.


----------



## Strike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> snyper21, try using the search function.  I'm sure most of your questions have been asked and answered here already.



...and specifically in this thread, which is why it was merged in the first place.


----------



## Zoomie

Short answer incoming:

DEO and ROTP are two separate entities that have nothing in common when it comes to selection.  With DEO applicants they are getting you into the training system ASAP vice ROTP which is a 4 year commitment to maybe seeing you in the system 5 years later.


----------



## BarthJD

Hi All,

I have a question regarding ROTP-Civi U.

I recently came back from ACS and passed the CAPSS and am assuming the medical as well (although I don't know for sure).  Before I had left I received a conditional offer for Air Operations with my only choice being pilot.  I have one year left of my degree program and am wondering when the CF typically informs applicants of whether they will receive an offer or not (especially since the fall semester is rapidly approaching).

Thanks in advance...

Jeff


----------



## Corey Darling

You wont receive an offer for a specific job until after that one year of school. They look at all your grades, and everything else you've done up to that point, and make their decision then.

if you dont like what they have to offer, you can choose to walk with no obligation.


----------



## BarthJD

So do they pay for school before making you a specific offer, or do they just reimburse you once you've actually sworn in?


----------



## thatcadetkid

At the moment I am currently 15 and a member of the Royal Canadian Air Cadets and still in high school. Once i come out of High School I wish to start a path on becoming a Pilot, I have read several forms saying that i can start as a Bush Pilot, or go through the military and jump to the top. Yet i have searched many Universities and found most of them don't really help much so I am wondering which Royal Military College I should join and the courses i should take to become a Pilot. But not necessarily a CF-18 Pilot, just a pilot of some sort, I love flying but in a CF-18 as I understand can be pretty dangerous as its quite complicated machine in a tight space and with ALOT of thinking, and partially on unconscious level. So simply a means of joining a College for the Flying Program, or any College to open up a path towards becoming a pilot for a Company.

As well, I am going to get my Glider and Power License through Cadets (I Hope). Yet some companies still demand for a degree in Physics. Also I hear that to get into RMC, you need a very high average, but there are some acceptions granted to Cadets, and I was wondering if this was true on some sort of basis.

I Thank You All For Your Kind Support
A. Lampert
778 Banshee RC(Air)CS


----------



## Michael OLeary

Welcome to Milnet.ca.  As you start reading here you will find many threads specifically dedicated to the dream of becoming a pilot.  I would suggest becoming very friendly with the search function.


----------



## SupersonicMax

thatcadetkid said:
			
		

> At the moment I am currently 15 and a member of the Royal Canadian Air Cadets and still in high school. Once i come out of High School I wish to start a path on becoming a Pilot



Good!  I was in your shoes 10 years ago and I got my CF pilot wings last month!  Don't let anyone tell you you can't, because it's not true.  



			
				thatcadetkid said:
			
		

> I have read several forms saying that i can start as a Bush Pilot, or go through the military and jump to the top. Yet i have searched many Universities and found most of them don't really help much so I am wondering which Royal Military College I should join



You WILL need a degree of some sort (any degree) to become a pilot in the Canadian Forces.
You have a few options:

1-Do your degree the civy then apply for pilot;
2-Apply for ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) for pilot.  Basically they pay your education (degree) and give you a salary while doing it then you go on pilot training.  Your degree can be at RMC or somewhere else.
3-Do your flight training the civilian way at an accredited school then apply in the CF under the CEOTP (Continuous Education Officer Training Plan).  Basically, once you're enrolled, you have 9 years to complete your degree (in anything, pilot training doesn't count towards any degree).

I personally went option number 2 and went through RMC.  It took me a total of 8 years, 1 month and 8 days to get my wings (from enrolment)



			
				thatcadetkid said:
			
		

> But not necessarily a CF-18 Pilot, just a pilot of some sort, I love flying but in a CF-18 as I understand can be pretty dangerous as its quite complicated machine in a tight space and with ALOT of thinking, and partially on unconscious level.



Any kind of flying will be a LOT of work, lot of thinking and will be dangerous. Every aircraft the CF operates are quite more complicated than the typical small charter turboprop that you will find at your local airport.  The training isn't easy (far from there) but it is very challenging.  But you are right, fighters are quite more space restricted than multi or helos.  However, everybody has to go through the Harvard II which is somewhat small as well.



			
				thatcadetkid said:
			
		

> As well, I am going to get my Glider and Power License through Cadets (I Hope).


  


Good, I did my Glider Pilot License in 1999.  Never got to do the PPL, I enrolled before... At age 16.



			
				thatcadetkid said:
			
		

> Yet some companies still demand for a degree in Physics.



Never heard anything like that.  I've been involved in aviation for 13 years.



			
				thatcadetkid said:
			
		

> Also I hear that to get into RMC, you need a very high average, but there are some acceptions granted to Cadets, and I was wondering if this was true on some sort of basis.



You will need to compete against quite a bit of people.  You need good marks but not incredibly high marks.  Lots of people in my year were in the mid-70s and got accepted at RMC.  The pilot trade is also very competitive.  I'm not sure if they select people with their marks.

Never heard of ANY exception because you were cadet.  It may help you get more points on the board, but it won't give you a free pass.

Max


----------



## Strike

Most of your questions have already been asked and answered.  Along with this thread, take a gander at:
 merged into this thread- Moderator 
It may be a little long winded, but you may get some questions answered that you never even thought of asking.


----------



## Griffon

Has anyone heard recently about possible In Service Selection slots for Pilot?  I am an AVS tech in Cold Lake, have worked on F-18's for the last 6 years, and have just recently had LASIK done (as it is now accepted for the pilot occupation).

So before I joined the military, all I wanted to do was fly military aircraft.  Since that wasn't an option 8 years ago, I went AVS to get on the aircraft as soon as possible.  The biggest benefit of that career choice IMHO is that I have logged about 10 hours in the back seat of a Hornet since I arrived here.  April 08 rolls around, and out comes a CANFORGEN saying that certain refractive surgeries are now accepted for the pilot occupation, so I go out and get it done, and have had no issues from it.  So I have started all my paperwork for UTPNCM and CEOTP, but am doing so under the assumption that one of them might be open this year.  So my question is this -- Has anyone heard of any CEOTP or UTPNCM openings for Pilot this year, or am I just spinning my tires here???


----------



## jzaidi1

Hey buddy,

Awesome!  You get to live and breath the life everyday!  Your CO would know much more about the process than any of us (unless you are a recruiter or the folks picking the pilots).

You are going about it the right way in my humble opinion - however I would add that starting up at RMC as a distant education student will probably help your chances even more.

I do not know how many slots are available but I've heard that CEOTP is filled up.

J


----------



## EStrike101

I've hard from someone from comox that you don't fly as much when you get the F18s slot, I think its from a member here that was showing me around in comox, I think his name was washie or welshy or something like that, but anyway he is on some kind of flight school and if youre reading this, hi how it going?


----------



## Griffon

I am very aware that hornet pilots don't get the highest hours in the CF, but that's OK.

Yes, I do want to be an F-18 pilot, but it isn't the only position I would be happy with.  It is just my primary goal in going to the pilot occ.  My motivations definately aren't to rack up a bunch of hours on an airframe, finish my contract and go to an airline in ten years.  I am very aware of the missions and training regiments of the fighter pilot, and thinking about it just makes me wish I was in a mud pit in St. Jean crawling my way to PFT.

That is not to detract from what a Cormorant or Aurora pilot does on a daily basis, it just wouldn't be my first choice.


----------



## Welshy

I like how my name pops up. My point from what i was talking to you was that a very small percentage of pilots eventually go fighter, with the majority now going rotary with multi engines coming in second.


----------



## Griffon

I don't know how current your information is from MJ regarding the ratio of pilots going into each stream, but I know that when I was talking to one of the I/P's at 410 he told me that there are fewer and fewer people who have a real drive to become a fighter pilot.  It is something that I have always wanted to do, even needed, and it is a feeling that has grown exponentially since my back seat rides and the new directive that permits refractive surgery in pilots and pilot candidates.  So I know that it will be a tough road if I get to take it, but I am just chomping at the bit to get there, and will do all I can to get my dream job.

Edited for grammar


----------



## Welshy

That's cool. I'm not trying to detract from your dream. I was just responding to EStrike101 and mines conversation. I will confirm that among my peers in the training program, the drive to go fighter is lower than most would expect. As for numbers, I believe its somewhere around 12% go fighter, but I would have to confirm that tomorrow when i get to work.


----------



## Griffon

That would be much appreciated.  You must have just updated your profile, because when I looked at it last you hadn't yet completed your flying training, and now you are listed as being at an operational unit, so I guess that answers my recency question.
great
Any other info that you could give regarding your experiences, stream ratios, current training waiting periods would be appreciated, it's all great information to know.


----------



## Loachman

Welshy - you didn't come back to us...?


----------



## aesop081

Griffon said:
			
		

> Aurora pilot does on a daily basis,



Do you even know what an Aurora does on a daily basis ?


----------



## Loachman

Chuckle...

I have this vision of you orbitting for hours, until you spot the slightest hint of a target, and then ... WHACK!!!


----------



## aesop081

Loachman said:
			
		

> Chuckle...
> 
> I have this vision of you orbitting for hours, until you spot the slightest hint of a target, and then ... WHACK!!!



Ok ok....so you know  ;D


----------



## Griffon

I do have a slight idea as to what the flying duties of an Aurora pilot are, and no the thought of patrolling the Pacific Ocean for illegal fishing doesn't really excite me the way that going up for a BFM flight does.  I know that isn't all they do, but hunting for subs or other unidentified vessels for 6 or more hours at a time doesn't really sound too thrilling either.  If there are other aspects of the role of the Aurora that I am not aware of, please feel free to enlighten me.  I would like to embark on this journey with as much information and as open a mind as possible.


----------



## aesop081

Griffon said:
			
		

> I do have a slight idea as to what the flying duties of an Aurora pilot are, and no the thought of patrolling the Pacific Ocean for illegal fishing doesn't really excite me the way that going up for a BFM flight does.  I know that isn't all they do, but hunting for subs or other unidentified vessels for 6 or more hours at a time doesn't really sound too thrilling either.  If there are other aspects of the role of the Aurora that I am not aware of, please feel free to enlighten me.  I would like to embark on this journey with as much information and as open a mind as possible.



Ok, ocean patrols are not the most exciting thing we do but every single aircraft has its less glamorous jobs.

A typical ASW mission for an Aurora tends to be 6 hours below 1000 feet ( more like 300 and below) at night, in bad weather, surrounded by warships and helicopters. Its rough, its long and its difficult. It takes alot of teamwork for the crew to et the job done. Its a big airplane to be spending that long, that low.

Other mission can find you looking for drug-smugling speedboats in Central America or the Caraibean. Its long hours but one of the most rewarding missions you can do.

You could find yourself in the middle of the Pacific, far beyond anyone else's reach enforcing the ban on driftnet fishing. Catching the bad guy is exciting alright, specialy when you know that they are the ones destorying the salmon fishery in BC.

You can also find yourself anywhere in the world. Our training takes us to places Like Hawaii, Australia, France, England, Italy and many, many more places. You get to travel, have fun and theres always someone to party with because you have your 10-man crew with you.

You get to fly alot, you get to do some real tough flying. Most people dont have a clue what we do.


----------



## belka

Griffon said:
			
		

> I do have a slight idea as to what the flying duties of an Aurora pilot are, and no the thought of patrolling the Pacific Ocean for illegal fishing doesn't really excite me the way that going up for a BFM flight does.



Can't be fun patrolling the northern Arctic in the middle of winter either.


----------



## aesop081

NINJA said:
			
		

> Can't be fun patrolling the northern Arctic in the middle of winter either.



Again, how would you know ?

It certainly is long hours but you get to see places no other Canadians will, you get to to see some of the most amazing landscapes in the world. I have seen some pretty amazing things in the North.


----------



## belka

Yeah, nothing like seeing miles after miles of snow covered landscape. Oh, and the odd tree. Depends on what you are into i guess.


----------



## George Wallace

NINJA said:
			
		

> Yeah, nothing like seeing miles after miles of snow covered landscape. Oh, and the odd tree. Depends on what you are into i guess.



Tree?


----------



## aesop081

NINJA said:
			
		

> Yeah, nothing like seeing miles after miles of snow covered landscape. Oh, and the odd tree. Depends on what you are into i guess.



I've logged alot of hours up north, what about you ?

'nuff said.


----------



## George Wallace

NINJA said:
			
		

> Yeah, nothing like seeing miles after miles of snow covered landscape. Oh, and the odd tree. Depends on what you are into i guess.



I hope you weren't meaning "Christmas Trees".





Perhaps you haven't heard about the TREE LINE.


----------



## belka

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I've logged alot of hours up north, what about you ?
> 
> 'nuff said.



:golfclap:


----------



## aesop081

NINJA said:
			
		

> :golfclap:



When someone wants to talk about fighters , feel free to chime in though. Otherwise, find your lane and stay in it.


----------



## EStrike101

@ Welshy, What dergee did you get and where did you get it? 


@CDN Aviator, Aurora seems like a comfortable plane to work in, its nice and roomy just so you can walk around and strech, it also got washroom and kitchen at the back right? I wasn't back there when I was on that tour.



Hmm, so why only 12% of pilots go for fighter, is it because its tough?


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> Hmm, so why only 12% of pilots go for fighter, is it because its tough?



It doesn't provide enough hours to qualify for the Air Canada Training Plan.


----------



## aesop081

EStrike101 said:
			
		

> @CDN Aviator, Aurora seems like a comfortable plane to work in, its nice and roomy just so you can walk around and strech, it also got washroom and kitchen at the back right? I wasn't back there when I was on that tour.



The washroom is up front and the kitchen in the back yeah. It looks pretty roomy but with a full crew on board it gets pretty cramped. It gets even more cramped on deployments when everyone's bags, mission kits, spare parts, food, tool boxes and arctic survival kits ( when required) and the technicians along for the ride. That being said its nice to be able to get up and stretch the legs and have a bite to eat on long flights. But when its 2am and you are down at 200-300 feet chasing a sub in bad weather, its hardly comfortable.




			
				Moody said:
			
		

> It doesn't provide enough hours to qualify for the Air Canada Training Plan.



Or maybe its just that some people become pilots to....well......fly !! I'm not a pilot but i sure didnt remuster to aircrew to only spend 200 or so hours flying. I'm sure NINJA can provide more accurate figures on how many flying hours a Hornet driver gets annualy.


----------



## Adamant

EStrike101, I can't speak for all, however, most of the people I have been on course with (the same lot from basic through PFT) don't want jets simply because they do not enjoy them.  

Jets are my last choice for what aircraft I would want to fly.  That being said, I don't really worry about it too much, because BFT is challenging enough on it's own, and in the end I will (provided I pass the course) fly whatever I'm told to, as is the case with everyone else.


----------



## EStrike101

How tought are the flight training? I've heard lots of people in here said that. I'm only in grade 12 so I dont know much.


----------



## Adamant

I would be way out of my lane to speculate on who tough Jet Training is.  If Supersonic Max pokes in on this thread he would better be able to give you some detail on that side.

Having only completed Phase 1 (PFT) and on my way to Phase 2 (though having plenty of peers there now) I can safely say that it's tough.  I really can't compare it to anything.  Lets just say it's both mentally and physically demanding.  I'm sure though that this can be said of just about any military course.


----------



## cp140tech

NINJA said:
			
		

> Yeah, nothing like seeing miles after miles of snow covered landscape. Oh, and the odd tree. Depends on what you are into i guess.



  I've tagged along on a couple of NORPATs....  it's great fun for a while, but I wouldn't want to do it all the time.  Great fun when they get a contact and scream down to take a peek....  good times when they're cranking around in salt spray... but there are some pretty long stretches of straight and level in between.  I'm glad I got to see it, but again I wouldn't want it for a full time gig.


----------



## Bograt

EStrike101 said:
			
		

> Hmm, so why only 12% of pilots go for fighter, is it because its tough?



Because 88% of pilots want to deploy. (Cheap shot for my fast jest friends).

Let me count the reasons.

1. Cold Lake
2. Cold lake en francais
3. It is a old air frame.
4. Because the BS doesn't stop after CYMJ.
5. Demographics - There are a lot more older guys going through the pipe- with wives and kids who don't want that lifestyle.
6. 410 
7. There are many hipper jobs (are kids these days still using the word hip- I'm so old) for guys with wings.
8. Better flying in the helo world
9. More flying in the helo world.

I'll stop there,


----------



## belka

Bograt said:
			
		

> 1. Cold Lake *It's what you make of it.*
> 2. Cold lake en Francois *I'd much rather take 3 Wing than Cold Lake*
> 3. It is a old air frame. *What isn't in the Air Force*
> 4. Because the BS doesn't stop after CYMJ.
> 5. Demographics - There are a lot more older guys going through the pipe- with wives and kids who don't want that lifestyle.
> 6. 410 *Nothing wrong with that sqn as far I'm concerned.*
> 7. There are many hipper jobs (are kids these days still using the word hip- I'm so old) for guys with wings. *If flying a fighter plane isn't hip, I don't know what is. *
> 8. Better flying in the helo world *How so?*
> 9. More flying in the helo world.*Our fighter jocks get more than enough hours to make them sick. We don't have too many drivers sitting around the sqn right now waiting for serviceable aircraft.*



Just my take.


----------



## pipstah

Please please please! Don't get into a pissing contest! It's all about how you fit into a community or if the said community wants you... Each one has his positives and bad sides depending on your point of view somes have more negatives than positives... 

As for who fly the most, well it's like compairing orange and apple... That being said, at the moment, helicopters and multi-engine are more deployed than the fighters. 

But back on my community loyalty and we always need pilots going jets to fill-up Cold Lake so people that dont want to go jets  can go elsewhere!  ;D


----------



## aesop081

pipstah said:
			
		

> ! Don't get into a pissing contest!



Far from it, i'm just tired of people assuming they know what we do when they clearly dont.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> are kids these days still using the word hip- I'm so old


Just throw the word "Yo" in front of your next statement and add in the word "sick" to describe something that was "cool" in our days. 

For instance:

Yo...Flyin' a 188 for the forces would be sick.

I got my fill of youth related terminology at the mess this evening. I think I am getting the hang of it. (or not)


----------



## Bograt

Yo Moody,

Props for watchin my back homie.

Life on the Helo side is totally sick. Dude, we go backwards and forwards up and down dog. Those suckas on the seized wing side are totally wack. Word.

Apologies for the hijack.

Pipstah is right- Why can't we just get along. 

Ninja, (totally sick nic by the way), it is kind of like arguing which victortia secret model is hotter--- imagine her head on that body.


----------



## Griffon

omg that's awesome!!  Bograt, you just really brightened up my day with that.


----------



## Strike

NINJA said:
			
		

> Just my take.



When you have more than one community under your belt perhaps you would have something to compare your views with.


----------



## fightergator

This thread seems to be straying from the topic, namely, questions about becoming a pilot; let's refocus the discussion.  

There are no bad flying jobs, but there are certainly disgruntled pilots.  Students that are not prepared to go to any type of airframe are setting themselves up for disappointment at aircraft selection time and there are some pilots who let this disappointment sour their entire respective careers.  Selection is based upon three criteria, the first and foremost being the exigencies of the CF.  Next is demonstrated student performance and third is student preference.  Student performance includes academics, flying, and officer development.  Additionally, there is an effort made to be equitable to the gaining communities by distributing the slots as evenly as possible across a course – each course is divided into thirds based upon overall performance.  The top student usually gets her or his first choice (always depending upon the needs of the CF), and then the selection board attempts to fill the other slots by drawing equally from the top, bottom and middle thirds.  The only issue that muddies the water are the fast jet slots; unlike ME or RW, there are minimum flying marks required to go fast jets, particularly if the candidate is going to proceed to fighters vice staying in Moose Jaw as an instructor pilot.  This requirement usually sees the fighter slots going to those in the top third or the top portion of the middle third which, in turn, means that the student distribution is not truly equitable.  Additionally, no student will be forced to go fighters, i.e. Phase 4 in Cold Lake; however, students that have demonstrated the prerequisite ability may be sent fast jet to receive wings on the Hawk, with the intent to have them remain in Moose Jaw as instructors.  Students are not forced to go fighters – Phase 4 and the subsequent Hornet OTU are extremely demanding and, without the motivation to succeed, virtually impossible to pass.  Previous experience makes no difference to aircraft selection except in those cases where students come to pilot training from other classifications or trades.  For example, if it serves the needs of the CF to send a former infantryman to TacHel, a former Navy officer to Sea Kings or a former C-130 Navigator to C-130s, then that will likely occur, regardless of the individuals desires.  Personal circumstances also make no difference to the selection process, i.e. a spouse's career, parent's medical condition, personal property obligations, etc., cannot be taken into consideration without making the process unfair to the other students.

Not all students remaining in Moose Jaw as instructors earn their wings on the Hawk.  Because of anthropomorphic limitations, a certain percentage of students can fly the Harvard II, but not the Hawk.  Additionally, some students destined to remain in Moose Jaw as instructors, have been loaded onto a modified advanced Harvard course, which will see them earn their wings on that aircraft.

Portage Phase 1 bypasses are not necessarily a good thing.  Military pilot training is aptitude and performance based; students must meet milestone standards throughout training within flying hour limitations.  If they cannot, they fail.  Civilian pilots can keep flying as long as they can keep paying.  Students who have completed one of the Canadian Flying College courses that impose strict standards usually do well in Moose Jaw.  Those that receive a bypass based solely upon flying hours have more mixed results.  Usually, previous experience masks aptitude until something new is introduced, such as low level navigation portion.  Prospective CF student pilots with previous flying experience can fairly accurately predict their performance at Moose Jaw by looking in their respective log books.  If qualifications were obtained at or near the minimum possible times, the aptitude to succeed in Moose Jaw is probably there.  If it took an individual significantly longer to attain quals, his or her learning curve / aptitude is likely going to be a limiting factor in military flight training.  The wildcard in this is self-assessment is the continuity of the civilian flying; if the person could not fly frequently enough to prevent a lot of time from being dedicated to review, he or she has to honestly consider how well training would have proceeded if it had been possible to fly more often.

From the friends I have seen go to the airlines, whether their background was fighter or heavy did not seem to be that significant a factor.  Over the years, I have heard all sorts of stories about who gets picked up the most – ME or fighter pilots and neither group seems to have a clear advantage.  It's true the ME pilots log more hours, but the fighter pilots log more flights and virtually all of the time is hands-on as AC.  The ME pilot has experience in a crew environment, but the fighter pilot's role as a wingman, element or section lead puts many of the same ticks in the box with respect to crew coordination / cockpit (or inter-cockpit resource management).  Bottom line, a pilot coming off of several tours of fighters is just as likely to get an airline job as a pilot of the same age coming off of the same number of tours flying ME aircraft.  Helicopters are another story all together – there are lots of really good commercial RW jobs, but the jump to an airline is difficult without fixed wing time.


----------



## SupersonicMax

fightergator said:
			
		

> Not all students remaining in Moose Jaw as instructors earn their wings on the Hawk.  Because of anthropomorphic limitations, a certain percentage of students can fly the Harvard II, but not the Hawk.  Additionally, some students destined to remain in Moose Jaw as instructors, have been loaded onto a modified advanced Harvard course, which will see them earn their wings on that aircraft.



AFAIK, the first and only course (so far) that graduated from the Phase IIB Wings Course graduated on 25 Jul 08 (they were 5: 2 that were directly selected for that, 3 that got pulled the Hawk course after the 18 Apr 08 crash).  I'm not sure (or haven't heard anything to that effect) if anybody else is going that road now.

Good post fightergator.  It pretty much sums it all up!!


----------



## Bograt

Excellent post. Sums up the last three years rather well.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Orange Quotes are Bograt's



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 1. Cold Lake It's what you make of it.



Agreed.  However, some are easier to make good.  



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 2. Cold lake en Francois  I'd much rather take 3 Wing than Cold Lake



Agreed.  Bagtown is a very decent city IMHO (maybe that's because I'm French)



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 3. It is a old air frame. What isn't in the Air Force



C-17s? EH-101? Incoming J-Models? Incoming Chinooks?

To answer Bograt's comment, Old doesn't mean incapable.



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 4. Because the BS doesn't stop after CYMJ.



There's BS everywhere.  Just different kind.  Just gotta find which kind you don't mind 



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 5. Demographics - There are a lot more older guys going through the pipe- with wives and kids who don't want that lifestyle.



True, very true.



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 6. 410 Nothing wrong with that sqn as far I'm concerned.



NINJA:  Maybe on a tech point of view, but on a 410 student point of view, it's the thing we see as the hardest course of all and the most demanding.

Bograt: How many people told you how Moose Jaw was crazy and impossible and oh, so hard.  It may be hard, but what isn't in life that will get you something?  IMHO, if you have the motivation and you got that far, you should be able to make it through.



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 7. There are many hipper jobs (are kids these days still using the word hip- I'm so old) for guys with wings. If flying a fighter plane isn't hip, I don't know what is.



NINJA:  Not everybody likes the idea of flying jets, just like not everybody likes the idea of flying a helo.  It comes back to preferences.



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 8. Better flying in the helo world  How so?



Again, depends on what you're after.  



			
				NINJA said:
			
		

> 9. More flying in the helo world.Our fighter jocks get more than enough hours to make them sick. We don't have too many drivers sitting around the sqn right now waiting for serviceable aircraft.



NINJA, that's probably true that fighter guys get less hours than helo or multi guys.  

Bograt:  I'm sure that if you compare logbooks, you have the same number of lines filled out (ie: same or close to the same number of flights).  Fighter flights are just shorter.

Cheers!

Max


----------



## Strike

Who are you, and what have you done to SupersonicMax?   ;D

To add on to the question of who gets what slots, many times the pilots with the exceptional hands and feet will go helos, simply because of the extra controls involved -- we actually use our pedals for something other than to taxi.  Just like the guys that have a great analytical mind, can work well on their own, can think fast on their feet, and are not easily stressed will be sent fast air.  I've also seen guys who have been great at both, are very social creatures, get along with everyone, and have the patience of Job, who get slated as instructors.

There are so many factors involved in the selection of who goes where, and it's not always obvious to the students.  On my course we had a former Nav instructor who ended up getting helos.  He was right pissed, as all he wanted was ME.  But he made the decision to tough it out at least until his first flight and then decide if he was going to go back as a Nav.  Well, he ended up topping the course (beat me by .5% for the spot!   :rage:  ;D ) and is now teaching at 403.  Another on the same course made sure everyone knew he was pissed at getting helos, and by the time he realized it wasn't all that bad, he was failing so bad he couldn't recover.  He had the ability to pass and do really well, but his attitude sunk him.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Strike said:
			
		

> Who are you, and what have you done to SupersonicMax?   ;D



I'm a hairy Frenchman and I haven't done much, I must say   But I like to listen



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> To add on to the question of who gets what slots, many times the pilots with the exceptional hands and feet will go helos, simply because of the extra controls involved --* we actually use our pedals for something other than to taxi*.



Peddlless?  I can't spell that word.  Other than taxi?  God, I don't even use them for taxi...


----------



## Strike

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Peddlless?  I can't spell that word.  Other than taxi?  God, I don't even use them for taxi...



Jeez, I pitty the servicing guy that parks you.   ;D


----------



## belka

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> NINJA:  Maybe on a tech point of view, but on a 410 student point of view, it's the thing we see as the hardest course of all and the most demanding.



I sure hope it's demanding.



> Peddlless?  I can't spell that word.  Other than taxi?  God, I don't even use them for taxi...



If I ever have to park you sir, I'll be sure to leave a ground chalk out there for you. Just aim for it for with the nose wheel and you'll be fine.


----------



## Bograt

Max,

You know what I say usually is in jest. I hope this link insipres those who wish to follow your footsteps 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BzU1sYPjzo


----------



## pipstah

mouahahah two thumbs-up for Bograt on that one!  ;D


----------



## thatcadetkid

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Good!  I was in your shoes 10 years ago and I got my CF pilot wings last month!  Don't let anyone tell you you can't, because it's not true.
> 
> You WILL need a degree of some sort (any degree) to become a pilot in the Canadian Forces.
> You have a few options:
> 
> 1-Do your degree the civy then apply for pilot;
> 2-Apply for ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) for pilot.  Basically they pay your education (degree) and give you a salary while doing it then you go on pilot training.  Your degree can be at RMC or somewhere else.
> 3-Do your flight training the civilian way at an accredited school then apply in the CF under the CEOTP (Continuous Education Officer Training Plan).  Basically, once you're enrolled, you have 9 years to complete your degree (in anything, pilot training doesn't count towards any degree).
> 
> I personally went option number 2 and went through RMC.  It took me a total of 8 years, 1 month and 8 days to get my wings (from enrolment)
> 
> Any kind of flying will be a LOT of work, lot of thinking and will be dangerous. Every aircraft the CF operates are quite more complicated than the typical small charter turboprop that you will find at your local airport.  The training isn't easy (far from there) but it is very challenging.  But you are right, fighters are quite more space restricted than multi or helos.  However, everybody has to go through the Harvard II which is somewhat small as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Good, I did my Glider Pilot License in 1999.  Never got to do the PPL, I enrolled before... At age 16.
> 
> Never heard anything like that.  I've been involved in aviation for 13 years.
> 
> You will need to compete against quite a bit of people.  You need good marks but not incredibly high marks.  Lots of people in my year were in the mid-70s and got accepted at RMC.  The pilot trade is also very competitive.  I'm not sure if they select people with their marks.
> 
> Never heard of ANY exception because you were cadet.  It may help you get more points on the board, but it won't give you a free pass.
> 
> Max



Hey Thanx Max for all the info. Sorry it took so long to reply, school started and i forgot about Army.ca and my post.

Another thing which is getting in my way is my eye sight, I wear glasses but mainly because my Right eye is lazy and therefore blury. Would i require Lazer eye to be able to become a piolit in the CF? or its a no-go whats so ever? Aswell as sight, my French is basically at the bottom of the pit, and as i have researched, to graduate as an officer (ROTP) you need some functionality within that field. All i can basically say in french is "Hi", "Yes", "no", and "May I use the bathroom?". Ha ha, sounds funny but hey! it got me thorough Grade 8 , and if it wasnt for my crazy nice teacher in grade 9, I would still be working on it, But you did say it took you 8 years and a bit to complete it. Would i have that much time to get my french up and working? or is it 4 years at school, and I must be finnished by then, and then i am sent off to serve for another 4 years?


----------



## Corey Darling

> Another thing which is getting in my way is my eye sight, I wear glasses but mainly because my Right eye is lazy and therefore blury. Would i require Lazer eye to be able to become a piolit in the CF? or its a no-go whats so ever?



New vision standards came into effect in 2007.  You are allowed a max of 20/60 in both eyes.  Laser is now an option as well, but you do not need to get it.



> Would i have that much time to get my french up and working?



At some point before you are commissioned, you need to be fluent in both official languages. So you will probably end up taking up to 7 months of second language training before you finish your degree.


----------



## thatcadetkid

aww man the french is gonna bite me, but im not sure what my vision is so that gives me hope   ;D


----------



## Zoomie

Corey Darling said:
			
		

> At some point before you are commissioned, you need to be fluent in both official languages.



*Bad gen alert *- there is no requirement for any french language proficiency for your commission or for the pilot trade.  The only people that need to be highly functional in their second official language are those of the french persuasion.

If training time permits - you _may_ be sent to a sentence of approximately 7 months at the language school in Quebec.

The Airforce is entirely English - the international language of aviation is English.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Corey Darling said:
			
		

> At some point before you are commissioned, you need to be fluent in both official languages. So you will probably end up taking up to 7 months of second language training before you finish your degree.




hmmm, I don't think so!  Last I heard, you didn't need any profile.  You need BBB to be promoted to Maj (and even then, you can be temporarily promoted to Maj without BBB.  You loose your promotion after a while if you don't get your profile though.)  BBB is NOT fluent.  It's merely functionnal.


----------



## thatcadetkid

ya i keep hearing that i need a bit of french to graduate as an officer from RMC, but fluent for Major and up :warstory:


----------



## Corey Darling

Ah gotcha, functional it is then.


----------



## thatcadetkid

Zoomie said:
			
		

> *Bad gen alert *- there is no requirement for any french language proficiency for your commission or for the pilot trade.  The only people that need to be highly functional in their second official language are those of the french persuasion.
> 
> If training time permits - you _may_ be sent to a sentence of approximately 7 months at the language school in Quebec.
> 
> The Airforce is entirely English - the international language of aviation is English.


Considering that i am going into the aviation trade, does RMC provide the classes to get my Pilot degree? or will i need to go to a Civillian University/College, get my degree there, then go to RMC to do my stuff there (I am also looking at sciences and Strategic Studies)


----------



## SupersonicMax

You don't get a pilot degree. As I said in one of my previous post, you need A degree (any).  Then, after RMC, you do Pilot Training (which ISN'T a degree, it's military occupation training)

Max


----------



## thatcadetkid

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You don't get a pilot degree. As I said in one of my previous post, you need A degree (any).  Then, after RMC, you do Pilot Training (which ISN'T a degree, it's military occupation training)
> 
> Max



Oh so could I go to Centennial College, get my aviation degree there, and then i can go to RMC and do their ROTP program, and complete my other degrees to get pilot training from them? I found in CFAO 9-12 a document with a list of programs which people may want to get into and degrees that they would be preferred, fully acceptable, acceptable, and not subsidized. as it says it would be preferred to have; Aerospace Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Chem, and International Studies (+ some I cant read off the document). Would it be a good idea to do my Pilot degree at some college (+ maybe one or 2 others that i need), then go to RMC and do the other courses there and aswell do the Pilot training? Or should I get all my degrees from RMC and the ROTP program?

Ps. I need all this info for careers class, not to mention i am wanting to go to RMC  8)


----------



## George Wallace

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You don't get a pilot degree.



Please pay attention to detail.  I am sure that you will find many answers to your questions by reading some of the other topics on becoming a pilot and the topics on ROTP and RMC.   It may be best if you read them first.


----------



## Magic

Reading these past few pages, I have noticed some friendly bias and competition between the aviation trades as to who is better and flies more etc. 

Each "type" of flying has a niche within the community and mission objective. It has been covered here quite a bit so I wont get into it. It is a fact that some are called more upon then others. I believe each one has there fair share of drawbacks and advantages.

As an aspiring aviation recruit (ROTP) i have no military experience and cannot comment on any "behind the scenes" tasks of any pilot. I however, need to point out something about the fighter community which I have failed to see anyone mention. These ladies and gentlemen may just fly routine patrols and "practice" most if not all of their careers in the military. We all know that, however, if shit hits the fan, we call up those guys and girls to do the unthinkable. 

For example, lets take the tragic events of 9/11 for example, I am sure a wide range of fighters were scrambled all around North America to intercept any suspicious airliners. Imagine being the pilot trailing a commercial airliners with 200 innocent people with the order to shoot down the plane before it causes any more damage.  

I could only imagine the thoughts running through any persons head pulling the red trigger button. 


Someone has to do it. 

Just my .02 cents


----------



## Strike

Magic said:
			
		

> As an aspiring aviation recruit (ROTP) i have no military experience and cannot comment on any "behind the scenes" tasks of any pilot. I however, need to point out something about the fighter community which I have failed to see anyone mention. These ladies and gentlemen may just fly routine patrols and "practice" most if not all of their careers in the military. We all know that, however, if crap hits the fan, we call up those guys and girls to do the unthinkable.
> 
> For example, lets take the tragic events of 9/11 for example, I am sure a wide range of fighters were scrambled all around North America to intercept any suspicious airliners. Imagine being the pilot trailing a commercial airliners with 200 innocent people with the order to shoot down the plane before it causes any more damage.
> 
> I could only imagine the thoughts running through any persons head pulling the red trigger button.
> 
> 
> Someone has to do it.
> 
> Just my .02 cents



Ahhh, but they don't physically see the people dying.  I urge you to watch Apocalypse Now and rethink your observation.  Granted, the Griffons won't be pulling crazy stuff like that (we're supposed to be defensive only) but that doesn't mean some door gunner won't be putting a few downrange into the enemy to save the guys on the ground.  How about the SAR-types who pick up not only the live bodies, but the dead ones too.

All the aircraft types have their issues when it comes to "pressing the button."  However, one just has to look at the advance in UAV optics and the negative affects it's had on U.S. operators mental health to see that making things close and personal can be more disturbing and difficult that shoot and leave technology.


----------



## Magic

I totally agree with you ..... 

We sometimes forget that taking life is part of a pilots job describtion. Some occupations will have a greater chance of encountering such a situation then others. It is something you must heavily consider when enrolling. 

It isn't all about flying expensive and cool aircraft. I can only imagine the report following an fatal engagement.


----------



## aesop081

Magic said:
			
		

> We sometimes forget that taking life is part of a pilots job describtion.



In some aircraft types, while the pilot has control on the physical release of the weapon ( as all pilots are) , the decision and authority to use that weapon rests with the crew commander. That person is very often not a pilot.


----------



## Run away gun

Give me a break, the guys on the ground have been doing this for over 3 years in the AO. It is part of every job description in Kandahar to take life if required.


----------



## aesop081

Run away gun said:
			
		

> It is part of every job description in Kandahar to take life if required.



Well thanks for pointing out the obvious.......


----------



## Michael OLeary

Run away gun said:
			
		

> Give me a break, ...



A break from what?  A discussion between a curious new member and experienced aviators about the theoretical responsibilities of pilots regarding weapons release?

You could have chosen to just stay out of it.  Unless, of course, you actually have some insight into the specific question being discussed.


----------



## Strike

Run away gun said:
			
		

> Give me a break, the guys on the ground have been doing this for over 3 years in the AO. It is part of every job description in Kandahar to take life if required.



Okay, and how about if you were to talk about a clerk that may be thrown into that position?  Yes, we're all soldiers first, but a clerk probably doesn't expect to encounter something like that.

Similar situation to a pilot.  Other than the UAV types (who may have a secondary impact on who gets the lead), the trade as a whole hasn't had a reason to think about having to kill another person.

Stop the bravado.  It just makes you look like an arrogant, insensitive, egotistical fool.


----------



## Magic

I am aware the instructions to "shoot" come from a higher chain of command and not based on pilot discretion. All I am trying to get across is simple. Since new recruits like myself just think about the glory and cool factor of flying these machines but sometimes neglect to realize the nature of the business. If you feel you cant take a life, maybe this line of work is not for you. 

This is purely from an aviation stand point. The boys and girls in Kandahar face death every single day and much respect is due.


----------



## daedalusx

I'm white male, 22, from Quebec and I've got my CPHL (Commercial Pilot's helicopter license) since about two years. The aviation industry in Canada is terrible and jobs were non-existant last year and with the current economical context it's getting worse, if such thing was possible. 
I'm going through university (admin/finance) right now and I was wondering if after my graduation I could be elligible for flight Officer in the CF. Would my prior qualifications helps or will the PC Quotas system will keep me down the list even if I am fully qualified to fly these machines ?

I've got a few hundreds hours of air time, mostly piston but some turbine time as well.

I know the Americans have a fast track program to get civilian aircrews in the US Army as CWO but unfortunatly American citizenship is required.
Any information on the subject would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## dustinm

daedalusx said:
			
		

> I'm white male, 22, from Quebec and I've got my CPHL (Commercial Pilot's helicopter license) since about two years. The aviation industry in Canada is terrible and jobs were non-existant last year and with the current economical context it's getting worse, if such thing was possible.
> I'm going through university (admin/finance) right now and I was wondering if after my graduation I could be elligible for flight Officer in the CF. Would my prior qualifications helps or will the PC Quotas system will keep me down the list even if I am fully qualified to fly these machines ?
> 
> I've got a few hundreds hours of air time, mostly piston but some turbine time as well.
> 
> I know the Americans have a fast track program to get civilian aircrews in the US Army as CWO but unfortunatly American citizenship is required.
> Any information on the subject would be greatly appreciated.



As I understand it you will need to get retrained from scratch. The good part is that you get paid for it. Military flying is different from civillian flying, and they'll train you to do the job the way the CF wants it done. The good part is that you won't be bogged down in the 'how do I fly this' stuff (at least on the helicopter) and can concentrate on the 'How can I do this job well' stuff.

Good luck!


----------



## daedalusx

They pretty much told me it was not going to happen because I got my license from a flight school not on their list.

Why each time I try to enlist I get stuck with BS regs is beyond me ...


----------



## George Wallace

daedalusx said:
			
		

> They pretty much told me it was not going to happen because I got my license from a flight school not on their list.
> 
> Why each time I try to enlist I get stuck with BS regs is beyond me ...



I see a little bit of attitude in your approach.  Perhaps if you dropped it and took an approach along the lines of getting information on ROTP or one of the other Plans that will put you through your university program.  From there apply to join as a Pilot.  A rather simple approach and more likely to get you what you want, than trying to become a pilot right off without any military training.


----------



## PMedMoe

daedalusx said:
			
		

> Why each time I try to enlist I get stuck with BS regs is beyond me ...



If you think the regs are BS, don't bother joining.


----------



## CountDC

Figures - sometimes the regs make no sense.  Back in 85 I was talking to an Air Force Major that was po'd with the new regulation requiring a University Degree for pilots.  He had a friend that had flown commercial and test planes for 10 years but couldn't get in the military as he didn't have a degree.  Meanwhile they had just recruited a guy with an oceanography degree into the system as a pilot. The Major I was talking to was a pilot without even going to high school.  Raised a good point to - what the h*ll does oceanography have to do with flying a plane?? Why not take the man with a proven record?

Oh well - the system goes on - grind grind.


----------



## Kendrick

Could it be argued that the degree issue has more to do with being an officer than being a pilot?  A way (flawed, perhaps) of the CF to insure a certain level of education in its officer corp?


----------



## hauger

daedalusx said:
			
		

> They pretty much told me it was not going to happen because I got my license from a flight school not on their list.
> 
> Why each time I try to enlist I get stuck with BS regs is beyond me ...



What?  That makes zero sense.  What about ROTP?

First things first, from a full time point of view, your Commercial Helo Pilot licence isn't worth much except as a few talking points on the merit list.  You'll still have to bomb around on the Grob, the Harvard II, and the jet ranger (IF you get helo's after PHIIA).

Where your CHP might hold some water is on the reserves side of things.  I'm not sure what the requirements are or what the chances are, but I do know the option exists (assuming you're near a reserve sqn).  You might do well to call the sqn and talk with someone there if that's the path you're thinking of.


----------



## hauger

Kendrick said:
			
		

> Could it be argued that the degree issue has more to do with being an officer than being a pilot?  A way (flawed, perhaps) of the CF to insure a certain level of education in its officer corp?



Meh.  I'd argue it has more to do with the thousands and thousands of applications the CF gets every year for the job.  A degree serves as a nice vetting tool.  Sure, that probably eliminates a bunch of otherwise qualified people, but there's no shortage of very talented, fully qualified people applying.


----------



## George Wallace

hauger said:
			
		

> Meh.  I'd argue it has more to do with the thousands and thousands of applications the CF gets every year for the job.  A degree serves as a nice vetting tool.  Sure, that probably eliminates a bunch of otherwise qualified people, but there's no shortage of very talented, fully qualified people applying.



Unfortunately, too many, both in high places and in their first year of university, seem to be of the opinion that a university education makes one a "Leader".  A great many aren't.  Even more, aren't even managers.  

I still wonder why the CF is unlike other organizations.  What organization recruits its CEOs from High School?  I am of the opinion we should be recruiting our Leadership from our PLQ, 6A. 6B and 7's Crses.  Give those Top Candidates a Career Choice; the officer route and RMC, or the NCM route.  All the BMOQ, IAP, and CAP requirements of RMC students would be greatly reduced and more time could be spent on academics and Leadership trg.


----------



## Neill McKay

daedalusx said:
			
		

> Would my prior qualifications helps or will the PC Quotas system will keep me down the list



I won't work in recruiting, but given the large numbers of early twenty-something white men who join the Forces every year I don't think you have to worry much about any "PC Quotas system"


----------



## CountDC

Kendrick said:
			
		

> Could it be argued that the degree issue has more to do with being an officer than being a pilot?  A way (flawed, perhaps) of the CF to insure a certain level of education in its officer corp?



I think no argument there - it is to do with being an officer.  Then the question becomes why require officers to have a degree unless that degree has a bearing on their trade?  Oceanography Degree - Licensed Pilot with 10 years experience.  I would take my chances on the pilot - he has already proven himself capable.


----------



## Loachman

daedalusx said:
			
		

> Why each time I try to enlist I get stuck with BS regs is beyond me ...



For any job that you may be interested in, regardless of the employer, there are certain requirements and expectations set by that employer.

When the employer is going to be sinking over a million dollars in training you for that job, those requirements and expectations are fairly high.

You meet them, or you don't get the job.

Where there are more applicants than positions, you exceed them, or you don't get the job.

If you want the job enough, you'll do that.

If you are not willing to, then don't bother applying. You'll only waste your time and my tax dollars, and hold up somebody else who is more deserving, and who will be more effective.

It sounds to me like you don't want this very much.

It sounds to me like you wouldn't succeed if you did get the opportunity.

I don't care how much talent and ability and knowledge and experience you think that you have. The type of flying that we do bears little relationship to what you have done to date. You are not a special case.

If you want to fly with us, you do it our way.


----------



## Loachman

Neo Cortex said:
			
		

> As I understand it you will need to get retrained from scratch. The good part is that you get paid for it. Military flying is different from civillian flying, and they'll train you to do the job the way the CF wants it done. The good part is that you won't be bogged down in the 'how do I fly this' stuff (at least on the helicopter) and can concentrate on the 'How can I do this job well' stuff.



I know that you're trying to be helpful, but I just checked your profile and there's no way that you can give anybody any meaningful advice about this - unless there's a whole bunch of stuff that you haven't gotten around to putting into your profile, including an age update.

There will be, besides Officer training, an extensive seized-wing training period as well before helicopter training begins. I have instructed a few pilot applicants with commercial helicopter backgrounds, and they had varying levels of difficulty adapting to our methods. Lack of instrument experience was a significant problem.

Want to be a military pilot? Do as the nice recruiter says, work hard, and stop whining about "BS regulations".


----------



## daedalusx

Loachman said:
			
		

> For any job that you may be interested in, regardless of the employer, there are certain requirements and expectations set by that employer.
> 
> When the employer is going to be sinking over a million dollars in training you for that job, those requirements and expectations are fairly high.
> 
> You meet them, or you don't get the job.
> 
> Where there are more applicants than positions, you exceed them, or you don't get the job.
> 
> If you want the job enough, you'll do that.
> 
> If you are not willing to, then don't bother applying. You'll only waste your time and my tax dollars, and hold up somebody else who is more deserving, and who will be more effective.
> 
> It sounds to me like you don't want this very much.
> 
> It sounds to me like you wouldn't succeed if you did get the opportunity.
> 
> I don't care how much talent and ability and knowledge and experience you think that you have. The type of flying that we do bears little relationship to what you have done to date. You are not a special case.
> 
> If you want to fly with us, you do it our way.



Point taken. 

I somewhat disagree on the taxpayer's waste of money. I already shelled out 75K out of my pocket to get my CPHL. I believe that's 75K I would have saved the govt.

I somewhat disagree with the difference in training. Comms, navs, physics of flight is extremely similar between civilian and military. Emergency procedures too. Also I'm pretty sure some of us have trained with some of you (Penticton Mountain Course, in instance) while I think you're right about difference in types of flying I still believe skills I've developed in my career should be recognized.

I still fail to see why someone with any university degree would have higher priority than a a pilot who had the responsibility of flying pilot in command. I'm almost through university and there is nothing I see that convince me graduates are more mature or have more leadership skills than anyone else. But like the others said, it's been beaten to death.

I do believe if it was such a bad idea others Army wouldn't do it as the Americans do have a program to convert civilian aviators to the military way of life. I do want to serve my country. As for the comment on my motivation and/or dedication .. well we'll see about that, shall we?

[edit]





> I have instructed a few pilot applicants with commercial helicopter backgrounds, and they had varying levels of difficulty adapting to our methods. Lack of instrument experience was a significant problem.


I will be through ATPL-H and IFR within 2009.


----------



## Loachman

CountDC said:
			
		

> Then the question becomes why require officers to have a degree unless that degree has a bearing on their trade?



I've expounded upon this before. It's irrelevant, and arbitrary.



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> I would take my chances on the pilot - he has already proven himself capable.



No, he hasn't. Prior civilian flying experience is no guarantee of attaining one's wings.


----------



## Loachman

daedalusx said:
			
		

> I somewhat disagree on the taxpayer's waste of money.



The waste comes in if you fail.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I already shelled out 75K out of my pocket to get my CPHL. I believe that's 75K I would have saved the govt.



Then you believe wrong.

Regardless of what you have done, you are going to go through our pilot training programme. It may or may not be tailored to some degree, but not much. We require a common standard, and there is only one way to ensure that common standard.

And as I said earlier, prior civilian flying experience is no guarantee of getting through.

For some, it's a benefit, for others it's not - some cannot relearn or adapt, and some think that their way is best.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I somewhat disagree with the difference in training. Comms, navs, physics of flight is extremely similar between civilian and military. Emergency procedures too. Also I'm pretty sure some of us have trained with some of you (Penticton Mountain Course, in instance) while I think you're right about difference in types of flying I still believe skills I've developed in my career should be recognized.



It doesn't make any difference what you disagree with or believe. You are simply not going to sit beside any of us in a cockpit until you have met the same standard. Period.

And there _are_ diferences, including the regulations that bind each community, civil and military.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I still fail to see why someone with any university degree would have higher priority than a a pilot who had the responsibility of flying pilot in command. I'm almost through university and there is nothing I see that convince me graduates are more mature or have more leadership skills than anyone else.



I don't see why university is a requirement either. It wasn't always that way. Somebody well above my pay level made that decision, though, and that's what you have to accept and live with. As you are about to meet that requirement anyway, I do not understand why you are making a fuss about it.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I do believe if it was such a bad idea others Army wouldn't do it as the Americans do have a program to convert civilian aviators to the military way of life.



There is a considerable difference in what is expected of a US Army Warrant Officer Pilot and a CF Officer Pilot.

That aside, I have never claimed that our way is perfect. Far from it. You can churn through my previous posts if you want to see my views on that and other things.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> As for the comment on my motivation and/or dedication .. well we'll see about that, shall we?



Perhaps.

I may have formed an inaccurate first impression, but that's the one that you gave me.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> [edit]I will be through ATPL-H and IFR within 2009.



Then you may be eligible for the HELICOP programme, if you wish to be a reservist and vacancies are available. You're still going to go through the pilot training programme anyway if you go the regular force route.


----------



## dustinm

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> No...you were speaking out of your Lane and we frown upon that here. Do it too often and you can end up being banned.
> 
> Milnet.Ca Staff



Thanks for putting that clearly. I'll keep that in mind in the future.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Just a few points I may add and/or put emphasis on...



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I somewhat disagree on the taxpayer's waste of money. I already shelled out 75K out of my pocket to get my CPHL. I believe that's 75K I would have saved the govt.



75K is NOTHING compared to what the CF would pay for your training.  It's counted in M$.  



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I somewhat disagree with the difference in training. Comms, navs, physics of flight is extremely similar between civilian and military. Emergency procedures too. Also I'm pretty sure some of us have trained with some of you (Penticton Mountain Course, in instance) while I think you're right about difference in types of flying I still believe skills I've developed in my career should be recognized.



Let me see, comms are different.  Civies don't have much standard on comms.  Depending on which community you get into, comm jaming isn't the way to go and comm discipline (and standard) is expected.  

Nav is different.  On the Basic course, you do navs at 500 ft and 240 kts.  Have you done that lately?  They expect you to be on time, on target (within 30 seconds) and are very picky about the way you navigate.  The end (ie: getting on target) doesn't mean you had a good flight.

Physics of flight?  You'll have to go from a helo to a fixed wing.  In my books that's pretty darn different.  

Emergency Procedures?  Extremely different.  The way you would deal with emergency on your basic flying training is much different that anything you've done civy wise.  Red Pages memorization and regurgition is only one part of it.  The hard part comes after.

And the "similarities" end here.  All in all, you've never done aerobatics (most likely), never really flown low and fast, never flown IFR, and never flown in formation, 10 feet from an other aircraft.  These 4 aspects are the 4 phases of the basic flying training. Otherwise, the standard expected is, I found, much higher than any civilian flying school and/or Transport Canada could ask.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I still fail to see why someone with any university degree would have higher priority than a a pilot who had the responsibility of flying pilot in command. I'm almost through university and there is nothing I see that convince me graduates are more mature or have more leadership skills than anyone else. But like the others said, it's been beaten to death.



That's a requirement to be an officer.  Pilots are officers.  Just like other airlines, to be a pilot in the CF, you need to be competitive.  There isn't a lack of qualified applicant from the pool. If you claim your Flying Experience will give you an edge, refer to what Loachman said previously.



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I do believe if it was such a bad idea others Army wouldn't do it as the Americans do have a program to convert civilian aviators to the military way of life. I do want to serve my country. As for the comment on my motivation and/or dedication .. well we'll see about that, shall we?



Your initial post sounds like you can't get a civilian job because of the market, therefore, to keep flying, you want to join the CF.  Why didn't you join before you started your flight training?



			
				daedalusx said:
			
		

> I will be through ATPL-H and IFR within 2009.



I have personally seen people with ATPL/IFR fail the IFR portion of the basic course and even fail the course.  Doesn't mean anything.


----------



## ark

daedalusx said:
			
		

> I'm white male, 22, from Quebec and I've got my CPHL (Commercial Pilot's helicopter license) since about two years. The aviation industry in Canada is terrible and jobs were non-existant last year and with the current economical context it's getting worse, if such thing was possible.
> I'm going through university (admin/finance) right now and I was wondering if after my graduation I could be elligible for flight Officer in the CF. Would my prior qualifications helps or will the PC Quotas system will keep me down the list even if I am fully qualified to fly these machines ?
> 
> I've got a few hundreds hours of air time, mostly piston but some turbine time as well.
> 
> I know the Americans have a fast track program to get civilian aircrews in the US Army as CWO but unfortunatly American citizenship is required.
> Any information on the subject would be greatly appreciated.



One of the initiatives that is going to be implemented (or is already in place?) is that Commercial Pilot License holders will be exempted from the Primary Flight Training. I assume CAPSS as well, but that is to be confirmed. However, I believe you need a Fixed wing CPL to get on the shorter path. Perhaps someone here may have the most accurate info?


----------



## daedalusx

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> And the "similarities" end here.  All in all, you've never done aerobatics (most likely), never really flown low and fast, never flown IFR, and never flown in formation, 10 feet from an other aircraft.



Yes I already did all of those, but that's obviously not the point isn't it ?

As for the why I went commercial vs military it's mostly a private matter but I wouldn't mind discussing it in PM.

And it's not about trying to "keep" flying. I registered here on 2005 when I was still trying to join the Army. Obviously some things changed but my desire to join did not.


----------



## SupersonicMax

daedalusx said:
			
		

> Yes I already did all of those, but that's obviously not the point isn't it ?



Maybe you did, maybe you did not.  However, I can guarantee, with experience in both, civilian and military, that the standard and the way of doing things is much much much different.


----------



## daedalusx

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> However, I can guarantee, with experience in both, civilian and military, that the standard and the way of doing things is much much much different.



And I would 100% agree with you.

And I certainly did not want to come off as an arrogant "I know how to fly now gimme a right-side cockpit seat" 100 hours community college wonder.

My disappointment and bitterness came from the fact that my license, skills, decision making abilities and leadership as a PIC wouldn't not count in the selection process. I assure you that I now understand the "why". Like I said, it doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## SupersonicMax

daedalusx said:
			
		

> And I would 100% agree with you.
> 
> And I certainly did not want to come off as an arrogant "I know how to fly now gimme a right-side cockpit seat" 100 hours community college wonder.
> 
> My disappointment and bitterness came from the fact that my license, skills, decision making abilities and leadership as a PIC wouldn't not count in the selection process. I assure you that I now understand the "why". Like I said, it doesn't matter anyway.



Although I believe your previous flying experience may help (depends really on the individual), I think that someone with 0 experience has the same odds of getting pilot wings that someone with PFE.  All what your license proves is motivation towards flying.  Your decision making abilities and leadership skills will be taken into account, if you're able to sell it in the interview.


----------



## Unglunk

I found the mention of this person with the oceanography degree making pilot to be a good point. I have always sort of chuckled at this degree requirement to be commisioned, but like someone on here said, they have to have something to use as a guide for choosing the commisioned.

     A couple of years ago i found myself in Victoria for the Naval Officer Assessment Board week; i had applied CEOTP for a MARS job. It was actually a really interesting week and they cut no corners for expense, top notch everything. I was told that i would be better suited for combat arms officer of some kind, or NCM Med Tech at the end of the week, and i agreed, but still a great trip.

     I had a chance during that week to sit down over meals with NCM people, Commisioned people, and pretty much anyone else that would let me bother them and this degree topic came up more then once. One guy that i had to just shake my head at was this very out of shape, extremely annoying guy who had a degree in Drama from somewhere; he had been working as a cook since finishing his degree 3 years prior, but basically thought he was a God. He figured that having a degree showed you could commit to something and therefore showed leadership. I argued that many degrees require you to give minimal effort and just put time in, and in most cases have nothing to do with your military occupation, as is the case with MARS and Pilot. I mentioned that work experience to me, showed leadership as well, but of course this chat went nowhere. I have been a PAramedic full time for 9 years and mentioned that i thought that held more leadership weight then his Drama degree, but the rules are what they are.

      I was very surprised to see that a Pilot doesn't require a more specific degree, like engineering, physics or something else that might be of some use to the actual job.

     I sum it up as this, at least Canada even has the CEOTP option. Countries like England and the US do not, at least i don't think so. This to me shows that they are receptive of the idea that other non degreed applicants have what it takes to be a leader, but at least through CEOTP, they can cover this tradition of a degree. You can't beat the system, but i do sympathize.

     I'm now waiting to start as a semi skilled Med Tech, a much better fit for me and my families needs.


----------



## Someone

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You don't get a pilot degree. As I said in one of my previous post, you need A degree (any).  Then, after RMC, you do Pilot Training (which ISN'T a degree, it's military occupation training)
> 
> Max



even infantry?
 what is the process if i want to be a CF-18 pilot, could you make like a timeline from beginning to end? (example: high school diploma -> basic soldier training -> RMC -> Pilot training, pilot (?))
and if im qualified to be a pilot, and i get chosen to be a helicopter pilot...what if i dont want to? can i still leave the pilot training and go infantry?


----------



## George Wallace

Someone said:
			
		

> even infantry?
> what is the process if i want to be a CF-18 pilot, could you make like a timeline from beginning to end? (example: high school diploma -> basic soldier training -> RMC -> Pilot training, pilot (?))
> and if im qualified to be a pilot, and i get chosen to be a helicopter pilot...what if i dont want to? can i still leave the pilot training and go infantry?



Better late than never......




Welcome to Army.ca. Here are some reading references that are core to how Army.ca operates. I strongly recommend you take a moment to read through these to give you a better sense for the environment here. It will help you avoid the common pitfalls which can result in miscommunication and confusion. For those that choose not to read, their actions often lead to warnings being issued or even permanent bans.

*Army.ca Conduct Guidelines*: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Tone and Content on Army.ca: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

*Frequently Asked Questions - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41136.0.html*

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html
Army.ca Wiki Recruiting FAQ - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977
Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf


Infantry Specific FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

CFAT practice test - http://64.254.158.112/pdf/preparing_for_aptitude_test_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Google search of Army.ca - http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=+site%3Aarmy.ca+%22search+term%22&btnG=Search&meta= (follow the link then replace "search term" with what you are looking for)

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To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


----------



## Someone

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Better late than never......



i have already read that...and didnt find my answer there....please i just need a simple response, 5 lines max... it won't take more than 5 min...
please, ive spent almost 1 month reading everything in these forums...i signed up yesterday to ask these questions, im still dont understand what the proccess is on becoming a pilot...thats why i asked for a timeline of someone who is a pilot. like this one:

age 18: finished high school 
age 19: joined the Canadian forces
age 20: finished basic training and started RMC 
age 24: finished RMC and started pilot training
age 25: finished pilot training and started working as a pilot for the Canadian Forces

just a simple timeline...


----------



## George Wallace

Someone said:
			
		

> i have already read that...and didnt find my answer there....please i just need a simple response, 5 lines max... it won't take more than 5 min...
> please, ive spent almost 1 month reading everything in these forums...i signed up yesterday to ask these questions, im still dont understand what the proccess is on becoming a pilot...thats why i asked for a timeline of someone who is a pilot. like this one:
> 
> age 18: finished high school
> age 19: joined the Canadian forces
> age 20: finished basic training and started RMC
> age 24: finished RMC and started pilot training
> age 25: finished pilot training and started working as a pilot for the Canadian Forces
> 
> just a simple timeline...



Anyone else got a more "ideal timeline" ?


----------



## Urban

Outlining what ages things must occur at is meaningless. The qualifications must be met and the CF doesn't really care what age people are.

1) Finish highschool
2a) Private Uni/Military Uni/Direct entry
2b) If private uni was selected in step 2a, apply to military.
3) Go with the flow. Things after this point are largely beyond your control beyond doing well on your courses.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Have you read the air force forums here? I know for a fact several of our pilots here have discussed their training in detail...


----------



## benny88

Someone said:
			
		

> i have already read that...and didnt find my answer there....




What George posted was not the answer to your question, but rather the tools with which to find your answers. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish.... What I meant by that is that if you learn the site here early on, you will be more likely to find your own answers.


I don't mean to sound rude, especially because everyone here was very patient with me during my application process for pilot. Come to think of it, they're still pretty patient with me.  ;D But you will find examples of the pace of training if you use the search function (A question of mine here which was answered by Supersonic Max, a member who is much further along his pilot training than me. And there are many more.) Take whatever you find with a grain of salt, as courses and their respective waits are shifting constantly. We're not being rude not giving you an exact answer, it's just impossible.

Good luck,

Benny



PS


			
				Urban said:
			
		

> 2b) If private uni was selected in step 2a, apply to military.



Quick nit-pick for Someone's knowledge, you can go to a private (civilian) university AFTER joining the Forces under ROTP. Once you figure out what trade you want to apply for  you can look into entry programs


----------



## Good2Golf

Someone said:
			
		

> i have already read that...and didnt find my answer there....please i just need a simple response, 5 lines max... it won't take more than 5 min...
> please, ive spent almost 1 month reading everything in these forums...i signed up yesterday to ask these questions, im still dont understand what the proccess is on becoming a pilot...thats why i asked for a timeline of someone who is a pilot. like this one:
> 
> age 18: finished high school
> age 19: joined the Canadian forces
> age 20: finished basic training and started RMC
> age 24: finished RMC and started pilot training
> age 256: finished pilot training to wings standard
> age 27: finish conversion training on your first operational aircraft type and start working as a pilot for the Canadian Forces
> 
> just a simple timeline...



adjusted timeline

Far too many factors to get any better idea than that.  By the time you get to your first operational aircraft, there could be notably different timelines to each of the respective phases.

I was done college and slinging cargo on a hook at my first line unit 20 months later.  Nowadays, it takes longer than that.

G2G


----------



## Someone

benny88 said:
			
		

> What George posted was not the answer to your question, but rather the tools with which to find your answers. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish.... What I meant by that is that if you learn the site here early on, you will be more likely to find your own answers.
> 
> 
> I don't mean to sound rude, especially because everyone here was very patient with me during my application process for pilot. Come to think of it, they're still pretty patient with me.  ;D But you will find examples of the pace of training if you use the search function (A question of mine here which was answered by Supersonic Max, a member who is much further along his pilot training than me. And there are many more.) Take whatever you find with a grain of salt, as courses and their respective waits are shifting constantly. We're not being rude not giving you an exact answer, it's just impossible.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Benny
> 
> 
> 
> PS
> Quick nit-pick for Someone's knowledge, you can go to a private (civilian) university AFTER joining the Forces under ROTP. Once you figure out what trade you want to apply for  you can look into entry programs



LOL, yeah i clicked all the links and read the other pages...thanks for the link of your questions!
i know you guys are tired of answering the same questions over and over, this happens in every forum...i don't mean to be rude but, imagine if teachers get tired of answering the same questions for every class they have, they cant go and say: ''I've already taught that before, if you want to learn it, go back in the past''
i know here it is different, you actually CAN go back and see what was said in the past, but it's too much, LOL ;D, i could spend all year looking for all the info! and i am aware that you guys organized everything with pages of links to go...and I really appreciate it. they really, REALLY helped me! thanks!
what i want you guys to understand is that the info in all those links helped me answer hundreds of questions i had, but there are still some question that wasn't answered yet (2-3 questions, not many) but i guess I'm asking too much LOL...i apologize if this was offensive (this is the problem in forums) to anyone in here, I really didn't mean to. I also thanks everyone for even have the patience of answering my questions here. i know its boring for you...thanks guys! 

cant wait to finish high school and join the CF! 
BTW, I got the card from the recruiter in Calgary (my city) and there is and e-mail address on it...can i contact him through that e-mail?


----------



## Someone

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> adjusted timeline
> 
> Far too many factors to get any better idea than that.  By the time you get to your first operational aircraft, there could be notably different timelines to each of the respective phases.
> 
> I was done college and slinging cargo on a hook at my first line unit 20 months later.  Nowadays, it takes longer than that.
> 
> G2G



thanks! that's all i wanted! just a basic thing...
ok, so that's a basic idea of what its gonna look like going for pilot right? how about for infantry, sniper? (sorry for the off topic) i promise this is gonna be the last question! lol


----------



## George Wallace

Someone said:
			
		

> ....................................how about for infantry, sniper? (sorry for the off topic) i promise this is gonna be the last question! lol



This is an AIR FORCE thread.

Try a quick search of "SNIPER"     >    ........................................in the INFANTRY threads.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Someone, here's my timeline:

(late) 16: joined the CF
23: Graduated from RMC
25: Got my CF Pilot Wings

To this date, I'm not qualified yet on the Hornet.  Heck, I didn't even start the OTU.  I'm on the Fighter Lead In Training.  I anticipate being qualified on the Hornet late 26 years old.  Yup, 10 years.

Max


----------



## Someone

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Someone, here's my timeline:
> 
> (late) 16: joined the CF
> 23: Graduated from RMC
> 25: Got my CF Pilot Wings
> 
> To this date, I'm not qualified yet on the Hornet.  Heck, I didn't even start the OTU.  I'm on the Fighter Lead In Training.  I anticipate being qualified on the Hornet late 26 years old.  Yup, 10 years.
> 
> Max



thanks! so you can choose which airplane you want? i mean if I want to be a CF-18 pilot I can but it will take more time...is that right? or do I risk on not being a CF-18 pilot?
BTW when you joined did you have a High School diploma? 

@ George Wallace: LOL, i knew it, sorry for the off topic... ;D


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Someone said:
			
		

> thanks! so you can choose which airplane you want? i mean if I want to be a CF-18 pilot I can but it will take more time...is that right? or do I risk on not being a CF-18 pilot?
> BTW when you joined did you have a High School diploma?
> 
> @ George Wallace: LOL, i knew it, sorry for the off topic... ;D



Co-operation with the Staff is one of this Forum Guidelines and if you can't follow the Guidelines then you will be introduced to the Warning system fairly quickly. Consider this your freebie!

Milnet.Ca Staff


----------



## benny88

Someone said:
			
		

> thanks! so you can choose which airplane you want? i mean if I want to be a CF-18 pilot I can but it will take more time...is that right? or do I risk on not being a CF-18 pilot?
> BTW when you joined did you have a High School diploma?
> 
> @ George Wallace: LOL, i knew it, sorry for the off topic... ;D




Someone, before someone (see what I did there 8)) corrects you more harshly, take heed of what we've said and DO A SEARCH. There's lots of questions here about which stream of aircraft you select (or which selects you.) Try a search on BFT (Basic Flight Training) at the end of which you are streamed.

Also, try to educate yourself on general CF knowledge. For instance, you should know that Supersonic Max couldn't have joined the Reg Force at 16. He can correct me if I'm wrong but I gather he was a reservist until he decided to apply as a Pilot and go to RMC. There's a lot of info and it can seem like drinking from a fire hose, but it's stuff you should know.


----------



## SupersonicMax

benny, I did join at 16.  You can join ROTP junior at 16.


----------



## dimsum

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> benny, I did join at 16.  You can join ROTP junior at 16.



Quebec's secondary school system ends at Gr 11, then one can go to two forms of Cegep.  Prep Year at CMR Saint-Jean is equivalent to Cegep, so it's possible to join the ROTP program at 16.


----------



## Someone

yeah, ill do some more search...thanks guys.


----------



## benny88

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> benny, I did join at 16.  You can join ROTP junior at 16.



Roger, apologies for making the *ass*umption; I didn't take CEGEP and the prep year into account. My point for Someone still stands.


----------



## Loachman

Someone said:
			
		

> yeah, ill do some more search...thanks guys.



And you can begin your Officer development right away by improving your written communication skills - proper capitalization and punctuation. "LOL" is not punctuation.


----------



## Someone

Good advice. I'll stop using expressions like ''LOL'', the problem is that I use MSN a lot to talk to my friends and I got use to it. Thanks. 

PS: I found more information in the Air Force Forums, thanks guys!


----------



## Loachman

Someone said:
			
		

> Good advice. I'll stop using expressions like ''LOL'', the problem is that I use MSN a lot to talk to my friends and I got use to it.



The improvement and its immediacy have both been noted.


----------



## Someone

What is the maximum height to become a pilot?
I've read some topics regarding laser eye surgery that they are now allowed even for pilots, is that true? 
Also, I've read in these forums that the vision requirement now is V2 and not V1 as it was before? is this also true?
Thanks in advance!

Edit: I found this website: http://www.becomefighterpilot.com/
Do you guys know any Canadian books or websites like this one?


----------



## benny88

Someone said:
			
		

> What is the maximum height to become a pilot?
> I've read some topics regarding laser eye surgery that they are now allowed even for pilots, is that true?
> Also, I've read in these forums that the vision requirement now is V2 and not V1 as it was before?



Someone, there are only so many ways to say "Look on the site it's been asked and answered before" , and the ways you've been told thus far are more polite than most. Threads abound about body limitations and vision requirements for pilots. Read them.



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> Edit: I found this website: http://www.becomefighterpilot.com/
> Do you guys know any Canadian books or websites like this one?



Stay away from that shit. There's no fast track.


----------



## Someone

OK, leave the ''edit'' part alone.

As I said, I've already read the pages, I'm just looking for a confirmation since they are 3 years old. A simple ''yes'' or ''no'' would be more than OK.
You could have answered them in half the time you took for writing (again) what I already know, which is that I have to search. Please, it's not too much to ask. All you have to do is  say:

1. # in centimeters (i heard it is 193cm, just looking for a confirmation.)
2. Yes or No
3. Yes or No

Again, this is not too much to ask.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Someone said:
			
		

> 1. # in centimeters (i heard it is 193cm, just looking for a confirmation.)



I don't think there is any set numbers, it's all about proportions.  The killer being the lenght of the femur. (I guess the length of your torso may be a factor as well, although I've never seen it being a problem)  



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> 2. Yes or No



A simple search on the CF website would have turned a result on that subject and the answer is yes, it is allowed.  Consult a CF Flight Surgeon before proceeding.



			
				Someone said:
			
		

> 3. Yes or No



See 2.


----------



## George Wallace

Yes, some posts are not made yesterday.  Yes some things do change after a period of time.  However, if someone posted that the sky was blue fifteen years ago; it does not negate the fact that the colour has not changed just because it was posted quite some time ago.  Usually, you will find that if somethng has changed since it was posted on this site, it has been corrected by some new informed member of the site.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Someone said:
			
		

> Edit: I found this website: http://www.becomefighterpilot.com/
> Do you guys know any Canadian books or websites like this one?



How to become a fighter pilot?  

As many experienced fighter pilots told me :

Don't suck and never give up.


----------



## Someone

alright, thanks.
I'll search some more at google.com
If any of you have links with ALL the requirements and prerequisites please feel free to post it!  ;D


----------



## PMedMoe

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I don't think there is any set numbers, it's all about proportions.  The killer being the lenght of the femur. (I guess the length of your torso may be a factor as well, although I've never seen it being a problem)



Actually, when my ex was trying to go pilot, he was told that his seated height exceeded whatever the requirement was.  He was even sent to DCIEM in Toronto to be measured accurately.  He was only too tall for one plane that he would only have to do 90 hours in and never fly again.  But rules are rules.

IIRC, a waiver was once made for someone who was too tall and they had an accident with ejection and died.  I think his parents tried to sue the CF.


----------



## Loachman

Someone said:
			
		

> If any of you have links with ALL the requirements and prerequisites please feel free to post it!



Recruiting centre.


----------



## SupersonicMax

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Actually, when my ex was trying to go pilot, he was told that his seated height exceeded whatever the requirement was.  He was even sent to DCIEM in Toronto to be measured accurately.  He was only too tall for one plane that he would only have to do 90 hours in and never fly again.  But rules are rules.



As I said, it MAY be an issue but *I* have never seen it being an issue (and I know a LOT of tall people, your ex must be pretty darn tall).  Usually, the femur comes into play first.

If he was too tall for the Harvard II (I assume it is what he was too tall for, since the Harvard II course is 90 hours and everyone does it), he was definately too tall for the Hawk and possibly too tall for the Jet Ranger.



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> IIRC, a waiver was once made for someone who was too tall and they had an accident with ejection and died.  I think his parents tried to sue the CF.



Never heard of anything like that, you have something to back that up??


----------



## PMedMoe

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> As I said, it MAY be an issue but *I* have never seen it being an issue (and I know a LOT of tall people, your ex must be pretty darn tall).  Usually, the femur comes into play first.



I wasn't trying to contradict you and sorry if it sounded that way.  No, he isn't that tall (about 6') but he has a long body and not so long legs.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> If he was too tall for the Harvard II (I assume it is what he was too tall for, since the Harvard II course is 90 hours and everyone does it), he was definately too tall for the Hawk and possibly too tall for the Jet Ranger.



Sorry, I don't recall which one it was.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Never heard of anything like that, you have something to back that up??



No.  I said, *if I recall correctly*.  If it did happen, it would have been before 1990.  It also may have be one of those things that is not widely known.


----------



## Someone

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Actually, when my ex was trying to go pilot, he was told that his seated height exceeded whatever the requirement was.  He was even sent to DCIEM in Toronto to be measured accurately.  He was only too tall for one plane that he would only have to do 90 hours in and never fly again.  But rules are rules.
> 
> IIRC, a waiver was once made for someone who was too tall and they had an accident with ejection and died.  I think his parents tried to sue the CF.



Is the number of hours flying is determined by your height?
I'm 190.5 cm tall, about 6 feet and 3 inches.  :'(


----------



## PMedMoe

Someone said:
			
		

> Is the number of hours flying is determined by your height?
> I'm 190.5 cm tall, about 6 feet and 3 inches.  :'(



No, whether or not you can even be a pilot would be determined by your height.


----------



## PeteMTL

Greetings,

My name is Peter and I'm interested in becoming a helicopter pilot. I'd like to to know what the demand is like and what the requirements are. I spoke to a recruiter in Montreal this week, but they were unable to answer many of questions and seemed more interested in handing me pamphlets. If this topic has already been covered, I'd like to apologize because I didn't find it posted.

There are a lot of things I've always wanted to do in life, but the top two are: travel and fly helicopters. After living abroad for several years teaching English, then working for a big "blue" multinational corporation, I decided that it was time to come home and continue my education. I'm 25 years old and have my high school diploma. I'm ready to go to university and am ready to do what it takes to become a pilot.

Now that I've got my story out of the way, here are some of my questions:

Is there a demand for helicopter pilots?

What university degree is given more consideration for flight training? I'm interested in Aeronautical Engineering, but am more inclined towards computer sciences/engineering.

Which entry plan is the best for my situation ROTP or CEOTP?

Are the chances of enrolling in RMC better than a civilian university?

Will I have to start with a different military occupation before becoming a pilot?

If anyone can answer some of questions or knows where I can find the answers, I'll be very grateful. I just found this site today and will be going over it for more information.

Thank you.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I'm not a helicopter pilot, but I'm a pilot.



			
				PeteMTL said:
			
		

> Is there a demand for helicopter pilots?



There is always a demand for pilots in general.  I just had my Career manager brief and we are 16% below PML.  Having said that, the problem is not at the recruiting centers.  There are plenty of candidates wanting in as pilots.  It is a very competitive trade.  

FYI, you are not enrolled as a Helicopter pilot, but as a pilot.  You may end up in eighter Jets, Multis or Helicopters after your basic flying training.  Most of the slots are helicopter slots though...



			
				PeteMTL said:
			
		

> What university degree is given more consideration for flight training? I'm interested in Aeronautical Engineering, but am more inclined towards computer sciences/engineering.



I don't think your degree makes any difference.  There are pilots with a History majors and some with Aerospace engineering degrees.  Your ability to fly a plane is not related to what your major was, although I do believe that science/engineering will give you good study habbits and the "scientific" way of doing things, as I like to call it, won't be too foreign to you (ie:  you will be familiar with a rigid structure.  Not saying that arts degree do not provide that, however, I believe that science in general is more structure than arts).



			
				PeteMTL said:
			
		

> Which entry plan is the best for my situation ROTP or CEOTP?



CEOTP will get you wings sooner, but it is much more harder to get in than ROTP, as far as I can see.
ROTP is somewhat easier to get in but you'll be flying 4-5 years from now.



			
				PeteMTL said:
			
		

> Will I have to start with a different military occupation before becoming a pilot?



If you go the ROTP way, they will assign you a group of MOC (Air OPS for pilots, which includes ASCOs, Pilots and AECs).  After the first year, they will assign you your MOC, in function with your performance in your first year.  I'm not sure how that works, since it wasn't that way when I did it.

If you go CEOTP, you will be pilot from day 1 and you'll start training as soon as a slot comes up.

Hope it helps,

Max


----------



## lyncher

I know in order to become an officer you require post secondary education, essentially, a diploma from a recognised university.

I have my Transport Canada Commercial Licence, aswell as an FAA Airline Transport licence, with experience in turbines, aswell as business jets. I have geared my life towards aviation, and never ended up getting a degree. Is there anyway that my experience can be credited as post secondary education? Would it be enough to justify allowing entry into the CEOTP (I know there is no demand for pilots in the CEOTP at this time)?

Any advice would be great.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## PeteMTL

Max, 

Thank you very much for your swift and detailed reply. I'm looking forward to start the enlistment process. I have just another quick question. Do you how long the CFAT is valid for? I wrote it in 2002, when I was thinking of joining the reserves. I don't remember them giving me a score, but I could have picked any NCM trade/occupation at the time. I was 17 and still in high school so I wasn't thinking of becoming an officer at the time.

Pete


----------



## PMedMoe

I'll give you a non-expert answer based on experience here.  I'm sure one of the aviation types will jump in soon and correct me or agree with me.

You need a degree (although I am sure there are some exceptions, flying experience doesn't come to mind).

If there is no demand in CEOTP for pilots, why would you apply?  Unless you plan on applying for a different trade, in which case you would *definitely* need a degree.


----------



## dimsum

Wait 'til closer to end of Fiscal Year...spots _might_ open up.


----------



## Loachman

Have you spoken to a recruiter?


----------



## SupersonicMax

lyncher said:
			
		

> I know in order to become an officer you require post secondary education, essentially, a diploma from a recognised university.
> 
> I have my Transport Canada Commercial Licence, aswell as an FAA Airline Transport licence, with experience in turbines, aswell as business jets. I have geared my life towards aviation, and never ended up getting a degree. Is there anyway that my experience can be credited as post secondary education? Would it be enough to justify allowing entry into the CEOTP (I know there is no demand for pilots in the CEOTP at this time)?
> 
> Any advice would be great.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Bottom line is no.  It will not be considered post-secondary education (it isn't after all).  You will be exempt from doing Aircrew Selection and Primary Flying Training (wether it's a good thing or not is debatable).

My question to you:  Is it a coincidence that you want to join the military as a pilot during the tough economic times in the aviation and the layoffs/hard time to find a flying job?  If so, keep in mind that if you are accepted, you will have to do at least 2.5-3 years before you get your pilot wings.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Wait 'til closer to end of Fiscal Year...spots _might_ open up.



I held on to that last year and later learned that there were only five CEOTP spots available to serving members. 1.5 years and counting.  :-\


----------



## Elwood

Moody said:
			
		

> I held on to that last year and later learned that there were only five CEOTP spots available to serving members. 1.5 years and counting.  :-\



I went through basic (Aug-Nov 08) with 5 CEOTP pilots in my platoon alone. And there were other CEOTP pilots in other platoons too, so I don't buy the recruiting centre saying "there are only 5 spots open, so you might as not try." If you have a commercial licence, apply for sure. You'll by-pass BFT, which is adding huge wait times to people without commercial licences.


----------



## Elwood

And there are relatively few 2Lt pilots (OJT-ers waiting for BFT or PFT) that I met who were DEO. Most of them are either RMC, ROTP or CEOTP.


----------



## lyncher

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Bottom line is no.  It will not be considered post-secondary education (it isn't after all).  You will be exempt from doing Aircrew Selection and Primary Flying Training (wether it's a good thing or not is debatable).
> 
> My question to you:  Is it a coincidence that you want to join the military as a pilot during the tough economic times in the aviation and the layoffs/hard time to find a flying job?  If so, keep in mind that if you are accepted, you will have to do at least 2.5-3 years before you get your pilot wings.



My experience isnt post secondary education, however my licences are. And no its not a coincidence, as my flight department isnt affected too much by the economy, for reasons Im not willing to discuss. I have a solid job right now, and the reason why I am asking about flying for the forces isn't to hop in an F18 or anything, I want to do something meaningful with my skills.

Oh and I read a thread earlier where someone stated that someones experience wasnt enough to get them into an aircraft that the CF flies, well I have a C130 type on my licence... So my experience is somewhat related to something.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Your best bet is to visit a recruiting centre. Good luck


----------



## SupersonicMax

lyncher said:
			
		

> My experience isnt post secondary education, however my licences are.



Depends where you got your licenses. If you got them from an acredited aviation college, you may be in luck. Otherwise, no matter how many hours you have, it is not considered post-secondary.  



			
				lyncher said:
			
		

> I have a solid job right now, and the reason why I am asking about flying for the forces isn't to hop in an F18 or anything, I want to do something meaningful with my skills.



That's good.  There are just too many civilian pilots that think they can get a free ride in the CF during an economic downturn and they don't realize that they won't see a cockpit for at least a year after they enrol and they won't be out of the training mill for an other 2 after that.



			
				lyncher said:
			
		

> Oh and I read a thread earlier where someone stated that someones experience wasnt enough to get them into an aircraft that the CF flies, well I have a C130 type on my licence... So my experience is somewhat related to something.



While your experience on the aircraft type is probably a good thing, you'll still have to go through the same training as everyone else.  There are skills we learn and use every day in the CF that you most likely never learned civi-side.  Plus, that experience doesn't guarantee success (as I said many times before, I know a guy with 3000+ hours fail the Basic Flying course) and it doesn't guarantee a slot on the C-130.

You are certainly not the first one to go through the CF pilot training with hours and licenses.  Nobody else got a free pass.  I had my Canadian CPL and I didn't get any exemption.


----------



## Elwood

Your aptitude test will be valid, however, I would write it again if I were you and not rely on the score you got when you were 17.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Elwood said:
			
		

> I went through basic (Aug-Nov 08) with 5 CEOTP pilots in my platoon alone. And there were other CEOTP pilots in other platoons too, so I don't buy the recruiting centre saying "there are only 5 spots open, so you might as not try." If you have a commercial licence, apply for sure. You'll by-pass BFT, which is adding huge wait times to people without commercial licences.



I have met only 1 CEOTP pilot during my training.  

Little correction, you'll by-pass PFT vice BFT...


----------



## Zoomie

PeteMTL said:
			
		

> Do you how long the CFAT is valid for? I wrote it in 2002, when I was thinking of joining the reserves. I don't remember them giving me a score, but I could have picked any NCM trade/occupation at the time.



Plan on doing another CFAT since this time you are applying to be an Officer.

Keep in mind that you do require post-secondary education to be a Pilot in CF. CEOTP is not always open for all trades in the CF - AFAIK they are not accepting any CEOTP Pilot positions at the moment.  You need a degree, if you don't have one.....


----------



## aesop081

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Plan on doing another CFAT since this time you are applying to be an Officer.



Makes no difference. I did not have to redo the CFAT just because i applied to go officer.


----------



## Zoomie

Sounds like you want an "easy button" solution - the only one that comes to mind involves you moving to Winnipeg and being a Reservist.

The precedence has been set in the past whereby high-time civi-fliers have been accepted into the CF as a Reservist and posted to the Dash-8 squadron in the Peg.  They bypassed PFT, BFT and went direct to the multi-school.  Their employment in the CF is limited to only flying the Dash-8 as a Reservist.  If anything more was requested, that person would have to (a) get a degree, and (b) go to MJ and get BFT under his/her belt.


----------



## Zoomie

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Makes no difference. I did not have to redo the CFAT just because i applied to go officer.



I guess it all depends - because contrary to your experience, I sat the CFAT when I was transferring to the RegF as an Officer.


----------



## aesop081

Zoomie said:
			
		

> I sat the CFAT when I was transferring to the RegF as an Officer.



Yah but that was when Christ was an LAC


----------



## lyncher

Im in no way looking for a free ride. I realize I will have to start from the beginning. Civilian pilots have bad habits and lack SOPs, Im simply looking for a way in, and was hoping that my experience could possibly be the way in.


----------



## helijamie

This is my first post.

I am 43 and have 20/20 uncorrected vision. No medical problems. Low time commercial helicopter pilot. Approx 250 hours.

I am an orthopaedic surgeon and have an interview this month with the local recruiting office. I am planning to join the Health Services Primary Reserve List. I hope to fulfill the basic requirements before the end of the year and become deployable.

I am curious. Am I too old to be trained as a military pilot? How long does it take? What is the age of retirement?

Thank you.


----------



## C1Dirty

Jamie

Can only tell you what I know, which happens to be very little.  I wouldn't think that you're too old and can tell you that training to Wings stnd takes between 3 to 5 yrs.  At one time there was a reserve rotary wing pilot program that you could look into but I think it may have gone the way of the dodo.

My guess, though, is that you are far more valuable as a surgeon than as a pilot.  I've heard of a number of pilots cross training to doctor but not the other way around, but why not?  I'd rather fly than do real work, too.


----------



## Zoomie

helijamie said:
			
		

> I am an orthopaedic surgeon and have an interview this month with the local recruiting office. I am planning to join the Health Services Primary Reserve List.



Need a few more details from you.  Do you want to be a doctor or a pilot?  You can't do both on a professional basis.  If you want to become a CF Pilot - you must join the RegF, take a huge pay cut, wait up to 3-4 years making low pay.  If you really want to put your skills to work in the CF, join as a Surgeon, go overseas and really make a difference.


----------



## PMedMoe

Agreed.  The CF is _crying_ for doctors.  Yes, they need pilots too, but the waiting list is long (read competitive) and only so much training can be done in any given year.  Join the Regs as a doctor and do the flying as a hobby.  You'll get one heck of a signing bonus, too!


----------



## Loachman

If you want to be a Reserve helicopter pilot, you need to live within reasonable commuting distance of a Squadron, have about 250 more hours and an instrument rating, and apply for the HELICOP programme. Do a search on the site for more info regarding that.


----------



## helijamie

Thanks for all the replies. I know I am more valuable as a surgeon and I hope to go to Afghanistan once the initial training is complete. Surgery is important. Just idle speculation.

Flying is very cool. Maybe I will just buy a flight simulator.


----------



## Loachman

Become a Flight Surgeon and get posted to a flying base.


----------



## helijamie

I am not sure what a flight surgeon does. I think being a flight surgeon involves a lot of things that are not surgery.

Will Canada ever purchase the A-10 Warthog or similar type of aircraft?


----------



## Loachman

helijamie said:
			
		

> I am not sure what a flight surgeon does. I think being a flight surgeon involves a lot of things that are not surgery.



Being a military doctor involves a lot of things that are not surgery.

Flight Surgeons get extra training in aviation medicine, and get opportunities to fly, but not as crew.



			
				helijamie said:
			
		

> Will Canada ever purchase the A-10 Warthog or similar type of aircraft?



No. They haven't been built in decades, and are a niche aircraft. There are threads here on CAS aircraft and such. The Search Function can find them for you.


----------



## RubberTree

Jamie, 
If you do decide to join your only logical option would be as a doc. It just makes sense, both financially and time wise. It can be a very rewarding job both as an MD and an orthopod, especially considering the work we are doing right now. You can make time for flying as a hobby.


----------



## benny88

RubberTree said:
			
		

> You can make time for flying as a hobby.



  Does that mean that pilots can practice surgery as a hobby? Fair is fair.  >


----------



## PMedMoe

benny88 said:
			
		

> Does that mean that pilots can practice surgery as a hobby? Fair is fair.  >



As long as you're qualified, fill your boots!  ;D


----------



## Blackadder1916

helijamie said:
			
		

> I am not sure what a flight surgeon does. I think being a flight surgeon involves a lot of things that are not surgery.



http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/about-apropos/fact/t21-eng.asp


> Flight Surgeon's Course
> 
> Mandate:
> 
> To provide Canadian Forces (and other) physicians with specialized training in the unique medical needs of aviators.
> 
> Background
> 
> Since the early days of military aviation, the unique medical needs of aviators have been recognized. In the early days of World War II, with the establishment of the School of Aviation Medicine, this recognition was formalized. After the war, the RCAF Institute of Aviation Medicine continued the tradition of training Canadian Forces (CF) medical officers in the treatment of aviators, acknowledging their expertise by awarding Flight Surgeon wings. This tradition continues today, at the School of Operational Medicine at DRDC Toronto/ CFEME, in the internationally renowned Canadian Forces Flight Surgeon's Course. Over 500 CF physicians have received Flight Surgeon wings since 1968. Other course attendees have included NATO medical officers, other foreign military doctors and civilian practitioners working in other government agencies such as Transport Canada's Civil Aviation Medicine Branch.
> 
> Course description
> 
> Objectives:
> The aim of the Flight Surgeon's Course is to train physicians in providing specialized medical support to air operations. Specifically, these physicians will be able to:
> provide clinical support to aircrew;
> provide environmental medical support to air operations;
> conduct Flight Surgeon duties in an operational air environment;
> support an aeromedical evacuation; and
> perform aircraft accident/incident investigations with respect to human factors causation.
> 
> Frequency:
> The course is currently offered once a year with a maximum enrollment of 20 students.
> 
> Qualification:
> This course meets the requirements for accreditation in Continuing Medical Education (CME) by the College of Family Physicians of Canada.
> 
> Training techniques
> 
> Academic:
> Lecturers for this intensive 32-day course include leading international investigators and practitioners in aerospace medicine. Students also benefit from the expertise of DRDC Toronto's research scientists.
> 
> Practical:
> Training is conducted using DRDC Toronto's unique facilities and equipment, including a human centrifuge, hypobaric (altitude) chamber, noise simulation facility (anechoic chamber), a Barany chair and a Gyro IPT (Integrated Physiological Trainer).
> 
> Operational:
> The course includes a week of flying familiarization at a CF base where each student gets to fly and live with an operational squadron.



A simple example would be that Flt Surgs do the same functions (plus much more) as Civil Aviation Medical Examiners.  CF Flt Surgs are also concurrently designated CAMEs by Transport Canada.  While Loachman may be more current on the crew status of a Flt Surg while flying during an "orientation flight", my recollection from serving on a couple of air bases is that they received "Casual Aircrew Allowance" (in the same manner as the rest of us with "Timmy" wings) for those days they went joyiding.


----------



## benny88

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/about-apropos/fact/t21-eng.asp
> A simple example would be that Flt Surgs do the same functions (plus much more) as Civil Aviation Medical Examiners.  CF Flt Surgs are also concurrently designated CAMEs by Transport Canada.



 How many Flt Surgeons do we have and how would I get access to one? I needed a CF Aircrew Medical and my Transport Canada Category 1 [note: this is for my ROTP program, and thus I can claim it], and I tried to get them done at the same time, but the ASU here in London used a civilian MD who was not a CAME, and no one I talked to seemed to know what I was talking about. In the future, it would be convenient if I could do them concurrently (avoid extra travel time, and making a claim) has anyone ever done this? Trenton? DRDC?

Cheers


----------



## Loachman

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/about-apropos/fact/t21-eng.asp
> While Loachman may be more current on the crew status of a Flt Surg while flying during an "orientation flight", my recollection from serving on a couple of air bases is that they received "Casual Aircrew Allowance" (in the same manner as the rest of us with "Timmy" wings) for those days they went joyiding.



I was posting in some haste, and referrring to the occupation of front seats - although that, too, may be possible in certain aircraft at certain times.

Yes, they are acting as crew for the purposes of casual aircrew allowance.


----------



## zorro

benny88 said:
			
		

> How many Flt Surgeons do we have and how would I get access to one? I needed a CF Aircrew Medical and my Transport Canada Category 1 [note: this is for my ROTP program, and thus I can claim it], and I tried to get them done at the same time, but the ASU here in London used a civilian MD who was not a CAME, and no one I talked to seemed to know what I was talking about. In the future, it would be convenient if I could do them concurrently (avoid extra travel time, and making a claim) has anyone ever done this? Trenton? DRDC?
> 
> Cheers



Hey hey Benny....shoulda just dropped your old pal a msg...

We have Flt Surgeons here in YTR, but the wait to get your medical done is at least 3 weeks. Not sure whether or not they will service you if your not part of the Wing. I'm taking a course and the Wg Flt Surgeon is in my class... I'll ask her for you.

As far as having them done concurrently... no idea. Once your finished your time @ Western you won't be having civi medicals done anyway, so your case is kinda unique. I would imagine they would send you to DRDC to do your aircrew med, since thats probably the closest location to you...not to mention all the documentation is sent there anyway.

Besides, making a claim isn't so bad. The kilometric rate coupled w/ lunch puts more money in your pocket than you'll spend heading to Toronto. the time factor is another story...

Give me a shout when you figure out where your getting posted in the summer. The "pod crew" from IAP is coming down in a couple weeks to check out my new place soooo....well you know what that means....

Who's chirpin?


----------



## snyper21

Hey guys, I'll be applying for pilot under DEO within the month. I'm from Montreal and I've heard from a primary source that it will be much more efficent if I drive to Ottawa and apply there. Apparently they're much more organized at the Ottawa recruiting center in comparison to Montreal. Can anyone confirm this or suggest that idea?


----------



## TimBit

snyper21 said:
			
		

> Hey guys, I'll be applying for pilot under DEO within the month. I'm from Montreal and I've heard from a primary source that it will be much more efficent if I drive to Ottawa and apply there. Apparently they're much more organized at the Ottawa recruiting center in comparison to Montreal. Can anyone confirm this or suggest that idea?



Well as of now Pilot is closed for the year, so Ottawa or Montreal, no big difference...  :-\


----------



## benny88

TimBit said:
			
		

> Well as of now Pilot is closed for the year, so Ottawa or Montreal, no big difference...  :-\



Doesn't mean he can't or shouldn't get the ball rolling. And as for going to another recruiting centre, you'll be back and forth quite a bit, I wouldn't recommend it. But to each his own. Good luck.


----------



## snyper21

Ya I figure I might as well get the ball rolling because I'm still in University. I graduate at the end of the fall semester 2009. Is it reasonable to consider (if/when accepted) a possible January St. Jean? Or am I more realistically looking at next Summer (if all goes well of course)?


----------



## SupersonicMax

snyper21 said:
			
		

> Ya I figure I might as well get the ball rolling because I'm still in University. I graduate at the end of the fall semester 2009. Is it reasonable to consider (if/when accepted) a possible January St. Jean? Or am I more realistically looking at next Summer (if all goes well of course)?



Usually, numbers for DEO are the the FY (from Apr to Mar), so if you finish school in December 09, there will still be 0 slots for DEO Pilot.  If there are slots for the following year, summer '10 may be a little more realistic.


----------



## Tomb32

I was thinking of enlisting. My first option is become a Pilot and second is for "Infantry Solider".  I was wondering if it's hard to get into becoming a Pilot? Say when you finish "Basic Training", you can go directly into Pilot training program, or it's matter of luck? How many people do they take a year for becoming pilots?   

As for the Army Infantry, say you do that after basic.  Do they send you on tour to Afganistan right off the bat or you have a choice to stay and work on the base? For working on Base, what kind of work would the Infantry Soldier do besides training?   
And to those that served in Afganistan, what's it like there? What was your experience like over there?


----------



## pheonix5

Hello, I'm seeking information in regards to the direction that would help me become a pilot. I know many people say it’s an oversubscribed field, but I've made up my mind to achieve this goal, and will not back-down. 
Currently I am enrolled in University, and want to begin applying for the pilot position, or setting myself up to head towards this direction. I've been told I have a few options at this point, such as the CEOTP or ROTP programs. 

Here is a list of the ambiguities I have in regards to making the right decision for what I want to achieve.
[list type=decimal]
[*] Can I choose to pay for my own education in the ROTP, rather than having it subsidized? 
[*] Should I wait to apply in my last year of studies for conditional DEO entry? 
[*] If I do not apply right now, should I enlist in the air reserves in my area?  
[*] If I join the ROTP program, and do not get accepted as a pilot, can I just walk away? (Because I won’t do anything else, besides be a pilot)  
[/list]
Also, if there are any suggestions into activities, or groups, et cetera, that I should partake and further explore that may benefit heading towards a career as a pilot. Please let me know!!!!

Thanks in advance to all those who took the time to reply, and help me clarify certain ambiguities. 
Jean.


----------



## Engineer79

pheonix5 said:
			
		

> Hello, I'm seeking information in regards to the direction that would help me become a pilot. I know many people say it’s an oversubscribed field, but I've made up my mind to achieve this goal, and will not back-down.
> Currently I am enrolled in University, and want to begin applying for the pilot position, or setting myself up to head towards this direction. I've been told I have a few options at this point, such as the CEOTP or ROTP programs.
> 
> Here is a list of the ambiguities I have in regards to making the right decision for what I want to achieve.
> [list type=decimal]
> [*] Can I choose to pay for my own education in the ROTP, rather than having it subsidized?
> [*] Should I wait to apply in my last year of studies for conditional DEO entry?
> [*] If I do not apply right now, should I enlist in the air reserves in my area?
> [*] If I join the ROTP program, and do not get accepted as a pilot, can I just walk away? (Because I won’t do anything else, besides be a pilot)
> [/list]
> Also, if there are any suggestions into activities, or groups, et cetera, that I should partake and further explore that may benefit heading towards a career as a pilot. Please let me know!!!!
> 
> Thanks in advance to all those who took the time to reply, and help me clarify certain ambiguities.
> Jean.



Jean,

ROTP is part of the subsidized education plan in the CF. Meaning, the CF will subsidize your education in return for obligatory service (which you must finish so that you do not incur any financial problems) + regular service. 

As you mentioned, you can wait until your last year of studies before applying for DEO - that's a choice that you will have to make, not us.

Reserves is a good alternative because you can get your training done before you get your degree (in most cases) – at which point you can apply for a transfer from reserves to regular force (from what I’ve read, it’s a long process, but worth it if you plan properly).

And no, you can’t just “walk away” freely from ROTP. Technically you can (from what I’ve read), but you will incur financial problems because the CF paid for your degree. Do a search on this, lots of information on this.


----------



## aesop081

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> Reserves is a good alternative because you can get your training done before you get your degree (in most cases) – at which point you can apply for a transfer from reserves to regular force (from what I’ve read, it’s a long process, but worth it if you plan properly).



Be forwarned that the Air reserve is not that easy to get into as the number of positions is limited. The air reserves is very heavy on former RegF members who have retired and is mostly comprised of members who work full-time.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> Reserves is a good alternative because you can get your training done before you get your degree (in most cases) – at which point you can apply for a transfer from reserves to regular force (from what I’ve read, it’s a long process, but worth it if you plan properly).



Being that the OP is dead-set on pilot, you are saying he can go to the Air Reserves, and complete his/her military training (to be a pilot) before they get their degree and then apply for a transfer from Air Reserve to Reg Force as a fully qualified pilot in the CF?  

Just for the benefit of the OP, who you are giving advice to here on the ways of the CF, please post any and all relevant experience you have in the CF.  



> And no, you can’t just “walk away” freely from ROTP. Technically you can (from what I’ve read), but you will incur financial problems because the CF paid for your degree. Do a search on this, lots of information on this.



Ok, so you can, or you can't?  Which one?  What are these financial problems that one will incur exactly?  Why not post some of the link to threads you found when you did your search on what the OP asked?








tic toc tic toc...


----------



## Engineer79

Did i say something wrong? ???
To avoid any confusion, I clearly stated "(from what I’ve read, it’s a long process, but worth it if you plan properly)" for your first quote. And, "(from what I’ve read)" for your second quote. But you are right, I should have mentioned basic military training, not training as a pilot. 

As for quoting my searches, these were things I read before the OP posted this thread. But here is the link about releasing from ROTP: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25753.0.html 
Specifically what Michael O'Leary had said:


> Once the period of obligatory service comes into effect, the reference, augmenting the QR&O, is DAOD 5049-1 (which superceded CFAO 15-7)"
> 
> DAOD 5049-1 - Obligatory Service
> 
> 
> Voluntary Release
> 
> Members serving a period of obligatory service will not normally be
> released on request under Item 4 (Voluntary) of the table to QR&O article
> 15.01, Release of Officers and Non-Commissioned Members.
> 
> A request for voluntary release by a CF member prior to the expiration of a
> period of obligatory service may be approved by DGMC when there are special
> and unforeseen circumstances and if the exigencies of the service permit.
> 
> Special and unforeseen circumstances are circumstances that are:
> 
> * compelling in nature; and
> 
> * unique or extraordinary to the member.
> 
> *CF members who are granted a voluntary release for other than compassionate
> reasons prior to the expiration of a period of obligatory service are
> subject to repayment of costs associated with the subsidized education or
> training or to repayment of the Pilot Terminable Allowance, the Medical
> Officer Direct Entry Recruitment Allowance or the Dental Officer Direct
> Entry Recruitment Allowance.* Compassionate reasons are those that, in the
> opinion of DGMC:
> 
> * would seriously prejudice the health or welfare of a member or the
> member's immediate family if military service continued; and
> 
> * can only be improved as a result of release, as opposed to such
> other options as leave, leave without pay or posting.
> 
> The requirements for repayment by members who have received:
> 
> * subsidized education or training are found in QR&O 15.07, Voluntary
> Release After Subsidized Education or Training;
> 
> * the Pilot Terminable Allowance are found in QR&O 15.075, Voluntary
> Release After Receipt of Pilot Terminable Allowance; and
> 
> * the Medical Officer Direct Entry Recruitment Allowance or the Dental
> Officer Direct Entry Recruitment Allowance are found in QR&O 15.071,
> Voluntary Release After Receipt of Medical or Dental Officer Direct Entry
> Recruitment Allowance.
> 
> (amended 1999-04-01)



*As a side note to the OP, I have no experience in the CF. What i stated were part of threads I've read in these forums. So I apologize if I made any mistakes.*


----------



## Blackadder1916

pheonix5 said:
			
		

> Hello, I'm seeking information in regards to the direction that would help me become a pilot. . . .



The right direction is the direction heading to a recruiting centre.  It is probably never too early to go there if you are seriously considering joining, especially under a subsidized education plan. They should be able to answer all (most?) of your questions.  If there is something you then don't understand, there are many on this forum with experience who may be able to help you.  However, a good suggestion would be to read a lot of the already existing threads - there are many (too many by some opinions) that deal with the questions you raised.


----------



## pheonix5

Hello
I’m seeking advice that will help me become a future pilot in the Canadian Air Force. I plan on making my application within a year to a year and a half from now, once in my final year of University.  (Conditional DEO )

The kind of advice I am looking for, is anything that could help me prepare for the test that will be administered to see if I am qualified.  I heard from various sources that a machine will tell me if I am qualified or not. 

I am extremely dedicated towards this goal, and will go to great lengths to achieve this.  Any information that will help me prepare myself physical and mentally is greatly appreciated. 

I am aware that I have the following requirements:


 20/20 Eye Vision
 University Degree(2 years to go), and College diploma (Between B+ and A- grades)
 Great physical health 

Is there anything else I should know about requirements?

This is what I am doing so far to help me achieve this goal


 Keeping in shape
 Joining the Communications regiment, to acquire a skill set that may be useful (radio)

Is there anything else I should, ex: special exercises et cetera

Thanks for taking the time to read, and reply to my post.

Jean.


----------



## martinmic

I've summarized my experiences from the first 4 years in the military and posted them on a blog. Hope new and potential recruits will find this helpful. Enjoy 

http://frombootcamptoflying.blogspot.com/

Martin


----------



## SupersonicMax

A few things are wrong in your blog, maybe you should modify that (and I'm sure you already know) :



> [...] So before your first actual flight you will do at least 10 sims.



It's actually 5 sims before you fly. 



> [...]Some of them are prerequisites to actual flights.



ALL of them



> The grading system is simply pass or fail on the simulators.



Maybe it changed since I went through, but all sims in Moose Jaw were graded the same way a flight was.



> Your actual aircraft missions are graded based on your performance starting from Super-Exceeded, High-Standard (aka. Snake), Achieved, Under-Achieved, Marginal and Unsuccessful.



Standard Exceeded (aka Snake), High Standard, Achieved Standard, Low Standard, Marginal, Unsat



> What's cool about this place is that it's a NATO training center. This means that students from other countries like Hungary, Australia or Korea are also trained here.



Korea doesn't train in Canada.  Singapore does though.

I don't mean to pick on you, since this is great for people with questions, however I just want your stuff to be accurate 

Max


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

Very interesting read, martinmic. Thanks for the link!


----------



## PMedMoe

So, you're in the CF but lived in Cancun, Mexico in 2008/2009 for 3 months??   ???


----------



## harry8422

quite a good read thanks for posting .


----------



## George Wallace

Something doesn't smell right.  Too many errors being picked up by actual pilots.


----------



## Roy Harding

Is "bootcamp" a term in current use amongst OCDTs, or perhaps Pilots?

It _used_ to be an Americanism.  Canadians tend(ed) to use the term "basic".  Much like the difference between "recce" and "recon", amongst others.

An interesting blog - I skimmed through a lot of it.


----------



## PMedMoe

> the goal is to be able to complete 13km in 2 hours (with *80 lbs* on your back)



I'd never be able to stand up!!   

Oh and it's a *rucksack*, not a rack sack.   



> Side note: This exercise of removing a mask was meant to prepare us for a situation where one needs to share it with someone else.



Actually, the point of the exercise is to decontaminate yourself.  You would never share a gas mask with someone, at least, I wouldn't.   :



> We also learned that there are some pills (used by special forces) that can immunize you from this gas. However, apparently there are some crazy side effects.



Really?  Since CS gas is attracted to moisture, I doubt there's a pill that can make you "immune" to it.


----------



## Loachman

I think that he means pyridostigmine bromide tablets, which increase the effectiveness of atropine used to treat nerve agent poisoning.

It's also "damp" when referring to something that's moist, not "dump".

And just "drill", not "the drill", when referring to marching up and down the square.

"Mega" and "Topo" do not have to be all caps.

Overall, what I read seemed to be alright, but I had to give up as the incorrect terminology and spelling grated too much.

I was trying to decide if it was actually written by somebody who had lived through it or not. I expect a little more attention to detail from somebody who had.


----------



## SupersonicMax

He is legit.  I personally know who he is.  Good guy too


----------



## marlborough

I really enjoyed reading this - interesting especially as I'm applying for pilot shortly.

I don't think you said, or maybe I just didn't see - what are you flying now??


----------



## Stukov

Tried the search function, but either I'm retarded or it doesn't function properly. 

Can anyone verify the work hours posted for a CF-18 Pilot in the "Jets and your Future" category?

Regards


----------



## SupersonicMax

12-14 hours day, with roughly 250 hrs of flying a year, give or take.


----------



## martinmic

Thanks everyone for feedback. I corrected the major errors. And to clarify, I wasn't able to complete the training and was subsequently released at the end of 2008  However, any information I provide on the phases past the graduation are still valid as I obtain that from my colleagues in the forces. I'm glad that someone else can benefit from these notes.


----------



## Stukov

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> 12-14 hours day, with roughly 250 hrs of flying a year, give or take.



Rough. Seems to be one of those things you have to be highly motivated for.


----------



## kratz

Stukov said:
			
		

> Rough. Seems to be one of those things you have to be highly motivated for.



Canadian taxpayres enjoy letting pilots have an easy life, laying back with nothing to do for 16 hours a day.  :boring: 

You have to work you brains and ass off in four hours a day to earn a pilot spot. [/sarcasm]


----------



## efx00

Hello There,

I am thinking of joining the RCAF. I'm only 5.2'' tall, not sure about the minimum height requirements. Just like everyone else, I do hope to fly the fighter jets even though my chances are very slim. Can anyone help me with that information? 

I contacted the recruitment centre and I was told there weren't any height requirements but when researched I noticed there were height requirements in the U.S. I'm really confused, I don't want to keep my hopes up.

Any information (from a pilot point of view) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
EFX000


----------



## dangerboy

efx00 said:
			
		

> I contacted the recruitment centre and I was told there weren't any height requirements but when researched I noticed there were height requirements in the U.S. I'm really confused, I don't want to keep my hopes up.



I am not a pilot and know nothing about being a pilot but my advice is to go with the information that the *Canadian* recruiting centre told you and not to worry about what the US does as they are a separate country and their military has different rules and regulations than ours. So if our recruiting centre told you their is no height requirements, that is what i would go off of.


----------



## Loachman

Firstly, there is no RCAF anymore.

Did your research include the Search Function on this site?

I typed in "minimum height requirements CF pilot" and was led to this thread:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/62660/post-790828#msg790828

It's not just height, and there are usually minimum and maximum weights for ejection seats as well.

Measurements used to be taken during Aircrew Selection, and most likely still are.

You can find answers to a lot of your questions in that thread, most likely, as well as in others.


----------



## SupersonicMax

efx00 said:
			
		

> I am thinking of joining the RCAF. I'm only 5.2'' tall, not sure about the minimum height requirements. Just like everyone else, I do hope to fly the fighter jets even though my chances are very slim. Can anyone help me with that information?



It's not only pure height, but also proportions of your body.  When you go to Toronto, after Aircrew Selection (provided you passed), you will be measured.  I think it's all electronic now.  

Also, the minimum weight for F-18 Ejection Seats right now is 136 lbs nude.  With the new seat coming into service this year, I believe it will go down to 101 lbs.


----------



## Occam

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Also, the minimum weight for F-18 Ejection Seats right now is 136 lbs nude.  With the new seat coming into service this year, I believe it will go down to 101 lbs.



Will they be issuing phone books for the 101 pounders to sit on, so they can see out the canopy?   ;D


----------



## 1911CoLt45

Can any one comment on why they do not take people who want the pilot job but who have licences pertaining to the trade.  I have a private licence.  I went to the recruiters and said am I able to get this job?  They said no at the time because I didnt have a university degree.  I am in the middle come completing my BA in political science now however , but will this education to be considered for the pilot job?


----------



## infamous_p

1911CoLt45 said:
			
		

> Can any one comment on why they do not take people who want the pilot job but who have licences pertaining to the trade.  I have a private licence.  I went to the recruiters and said am I able to get this job?  They said no at the time because I didnt have a university degree.  I am in the middle come completing my BA in political science now however , but will this education to be considered for the pilot job?



How much research have you done with regards to the pilot trade, and the requirements for becoming an officer in the CF?


----------



## aesop081

1911CoLt45 said:
			
		

> I have a private licence.



You and a boatload of other applicants so dont feel special.


----------



## Loachman

A private licence won't get you an airline pilot job either.

It's equivalent to a kindergarten graduation, as compared to a degree.


----------



## MAJONES

1911CoLt45 said:
			
		

> They said no at the time because I didn't have a university degree.  I am in the middle come completing my BA in political science now however , but will this education to be considered for the pilot job?


When I was working in recruiting (2 years ago) any degree was good for pilot (but a hard science degree was preferred).  That may have changed but I doubt it since it has been that way since at least 1988.

As for the PPL not counting for much, there are a few things you need to understand.  Pretty much anybody can get a PPL if they are willing to throw enough money at.  In the military you have a very limited amount of time to get up to snuff in your flying, you must be a fast learner.  Getting a PPL does not demonstrate anything about your rate of learning.  Also, the military sometimes flies differently from what you would have seen in your flight training.  A good number of the skills that you learned in your PPL are not transferable to military flying.


----------



## SupersonicMax

MAJONES, 

Actually, after a few hundred hours of civi flying and a few hundred hours of military flying, I can tell you that the skills learnt on the PPL are very much transferable to the military environment.  While the skills taught on the PPL may not be taught the same way or at all flying in the military (and vice versa), it's still a skill in your bag and makes you think that much more outside the box, especially when new situations occur, not to mention the airmanship aspect of it. 

It is true, however, that civilian flying will in no way guarantee success in the military.  The way things are taught is very different and depending on someone's attitude, even with tons of experience he/she may find him/herself failing the basic course.


----------



## MAJONES

Max, I agree that some of the very basic skills are transferable, but many are not.  Attitudes + movements transfer well, circuits, and nav do not.


----------



## SupersonicMax

MAJONES said:
			
		

> Max, I agree that some of the very basic skills are transferable, but many are not.  Attitudes + movements transfer well, circuits, and nav do not.



We'll have to agree to disagree.  Once you get out of Moose Jaw/Portage, you'll find that there is no more line on the ground where the circuit is.  It becomes, you guessed it, airmanship as to how/where you fly your circuit safely and efficiently in an environment where not necessarily all the airplanes fly all the same speeds.  So your experience flying circuits in a Cessna 150 at the local airport may come handy after all.

As far as Nav, same principles apply in my mind.  Navigating, even in a CF aircraft, isn't brain surgeon material, especially with a GPS nowadays.


----------



## MAJONES

Agreeing to disagree sounds fair


----------



## gcclarke

Gentlemen, might we be able to say that skills learned while getting your PPL may very well help you once you become a military pilot, they won't help you in becoming a military pilot, which is of course what the vast majority of people reading this thread seem to be concerned with?


----------



## SupersonicMax

I strongly believe that they will help you get through training, if the attitude is right.


----------



## MAJONES

Having a PPL won't hurt, but it's not going to be that much of a boost.


----------



## ark

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Gentlemen, might we be able to say that skills learned while getting your PPL may very well help you once you become a military pilot, they won't help you in becoming a military pilot, which is of course what the vast majority of people reading this thread seem to be concerned with?



http://cradpdf.drdc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc90/p532336.pdf

If you want to be rigorous, you can't say it helps but you can say there is a correlation between previous flying experience and success during early flight training (PFT) as per section 4.1.2.

Keep in mind that correlation does not imply causation.


----------



## gcclarke

Well, no, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## bdave

Does anyone know what the required femur length would be? I assume it would be a statistical average?
Average femur length is about 40 cm (femur being from hip insertion to upper knee cap).


----------



## NzrTrk1

Well, as I'm going to be going into Uni soon, I've been looking at alternative careers, primarily within the CF. Is any preference from the prospective candidate taken into consideration? I've never really been a fan of the CF18 or any fighter jets, have always liked Helicopters, but it seems that maybe based on that alone, being a pilot in the CF wouldn't suit me as I'm under the assumption that they'll put you wherever they need to, whether you want to be a Helo pilot, or jets. Looking at the CF site they have a whole bit about training Heli pilots from scratch blah blah, is this implying that Helicopter Pilot is a specific trade? Or is it all one broad 'Pilot' trade?


----------



## infamous_p

NzrTrk1 said:
			
		

> Well, as I'm going to be going into Uni soon, I've been looking at alternative careers, primarily within the CF. Is any preference from the prospective candidate taken into consideration? I've never really been a fan of the CF18 or any fighter jets, have always liked Helicopters, but it seems that maybe based on that alone, being a pilot in the CF wouldn't suit me as I'm under the assumption that they'll put you wherever they need to, whether you want to be a Helo pilot, or jets. Looking at the CF site they have a whole bit about training Heli pilots from scratch blah blah, is this implying that Helicopter Pilot is a specific trade? Or is it all one broad 'Pilot' trade?



Your trade is pilot. The operation of all airframes, whether multi-engine, helicopter, or fast jets, fall under the trade of 'pilot'. Once you successfully complete BFT in Moose Jaw, you will be streamed into a particular airframe community - multi-engine, helo, or fast jet. You will be able to specify your preference, but ultimately, the CF will make the decision regarding what you will fly based on the operational requirements of the CF.

Edit: Grammatical error


----------



## NzrTrk1

Ah, thank you. Is there any particular reason why Helicopters don't fall under the Army, like in other western militaries?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

NzrTrk1 said:
			
		

> Ah, thank you. Is there any particular reason why Helicopters don't fall under the Army, like in other western militaries?



Once upon a time it was.....


----------



## aesop081

NzrTrk1 said:
			
		

> Ah, thank you. Is there any particular reason why *Helicopters* don't fall under the Army, like in other western militaries?



Even in other wester militaries, hellicopters are also emplyed by services other than the army. If you are talking about troop lift-type machines, you will find that some of our allies employ them as part of other services. The RAF for example owns British Chinooks. Another example is the Dutch. The RNLAF controls Chinooks and Apache hellicopters ( and others as far as i recall).


----------



## NzrTrk1

Yes, you're right, I believe Armies tend to have attack helicopters rather than transport types, such as the US Army with their Apaches, or the UK Army Air Corps with their Apaches as well.

Here's another question, let's say a pilot was chosen to train as a Rotorwing pilot, if that's the correct term, I assume they'll first train on the trainer, what types of Helicopter would they be able to expect to fly within the CF? Are there many available postings for Helo pilots in the CF, or would it be unrealistic to expect that one would have a good chance at landing a position in a Helicopter? I'm trying to find some info for the future mostly, my plan right now is to stick with the reserves through Uni, then see what I can do within the CF. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I was also looking at entry plans with the UK, after realizing that it's a rather unrealistic goal to one day be a Leopard CO within the CF, I was looking at alternatives and saw being a Helicopter pilot as one. So far it seems that hopping over to the UK and either joining their Army, and after 5 years applying for Pilot training, or wait 5 years and try Direct Entry Officer which would utilize the Uni degree, and hopefully pilot one of their machines. 

Anyone have any opinions or suggestions?


----------



## Zoomie

If you want to be a helicopter pilot - you have a very good chance that is what you will be.  75% of our Pilot positions are helo.  If you want to fly a camouflage helicopter - you're in luck, as an even larger majority of helo pilots fly TacHel.

We have a current accelerate stream for those applicants who only want to fly helicopters - once recruited and sent to PFT, making it clear that you are interested in remaining at 3CFFTS will cut off years in the training mill - streaming you directly into the helicopter training mill after 150hrs of FW trainer time.

Have you looked into the requirements for serving in the UK military?  Unless you have lived there previously for a certain amount of time, you must meet the residency eligibility requirements.  Being a citizen is not good enough.


----------



## NzrTrk1

Ah, well that clears A LOT of things up for me, about being a pilot within the CF, thank you very much for that. I never knew it went like that to be honest.

AS for the UK, I've talked with a few UK recruiters about it and you can join their Army (Certain trades that don't require a period of 5 years residency) if you have a family member/friend who is willing to sponsor you to get you over to the UK, and it's even easier if you have a European citizenship, which I have along with my Canadian one. I was born here, but have a Polish citizenship. However, with what you said I think I'll be looking more in-depth into the CF as I'd rather serve my country, than one that I have little affiliation to, just because I want to have a certain job.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

NzrTrk1 said:
			
		

> what types of Helicopter would they be able to expect to fly within the CF?



Current CF airfames



> Are there many available postings for Helo pilots in the CF, or would it be unrealistic to expect that one would have a good chance at landing a position in a Helicopter?



I am not sure if you mean open positions, or what are the locations they work out of.  If you meant locations, these are the  locations of the Air Force Wings in Canada.  However this doesn't include all places a pilot could be posted to.  Staff positions, etc are also possible posting but the Wings cover the flying positions atleast.


----------



## bdave

Zoomie said:
			
		

> If you want to be a helicopter pilot - you have a very good chance that is what you will be.  75% of our Pilot positions are helo.  If you want to fly a camouflage helicopter - you're in luck, as an even larger majority of helo pilots fly TacHel.
> 
> We have a current accelerate stream for those applicants who only want to fly helicopters - once recruited and sent to PFT, making it clear that you are interested in remaining at 3CFFTS will cut off years in the training mill - streaming you directly into the helicopter training mill after 150hrs of FW trainer time.
> 
> Have you looked into the requirements for serving in the UK military?  Unless you have lived there previously for a certain amount of time, you must meet the residency eligibility requirements.  Being a citizen is not good enough.


Can you elaborate more on what Helo pilots do?


----------



## Loachman

bdave said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate more on what Helo pilots do?



I am violating the Official Secrets Act here, so don't tell anybody else, but I fly Helicopters.

I do some paperpushing as well, in order to emulate other Officer professions as part of my cover.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Current CF airfames
> 
> If you meant locations, these are the  locations of the Air Force Wings in Canada.



This is not particularly useful in the case of 1 Wing, as only the Wing HQ is in Kingston (which, as no Griffons are based there, is hardly "the home of the Griffon"). One has to dig down a little deeper to find the Squadron locations, and 427 Squadron no longer belongs to 1 Wing.

Squadron locations are: 400 Squadron Borden, 403 Squadron Gagetown, 408 Squadron Edmonton, 430 Squadron Valcartier, and 438 Squadron Squadron St-Hubert (Montreal). 427 Squadron belongs to SOFCOM and lives in Petawawa.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Loachman said:
			
		

> I am violating the Official Secrets Act here, so don't tell anybody else, but I fly Helicopters.



Well then, the Men In Black and those pesky Black Helicopters (err... wait maybe not those) will be visiting you soon......


 ;D


----------



## NzrTrk1

Well, a more detailed question relating to that, what does a TacHel pilot do? Which kind of pilots are responsible for flying the Chinooks? Are Griffins being used anywhere outside of Canada (other than with the SF iirc)


----------



## SupersonicMax

NzrTrk1 said:
			
		

> Griffins



Griffon



			
				NzrTrk1 said:
			
		

> Are Griffins being used anywhere outside of Canada (other than with the SF iirc)



They are in Afghanistan now and have been in Bosnia and Haiti, just to name those.


----------



## NzrTrk1

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Griffon
> 
> They are in Afghanistan now and have been in Bosnia and Haiti, just to name those.



Ah, my mistake on the spelling.

Another thing, how long is the initial contract as a pilot, and how long would any further contracts be? Is it a variable that you can decide? Or is it something set in stone, that after your initial contract is up, and you want to stay longer, you have to stay for X amount of time? Thanks.


----------



## Zoomie

Expect between three and four years to get your CF Pilot Wings.  Once winged, you owe the CF seven years.  After that you can sign up for consecutive five year contracts - up to a total of 25 years before being eligible for an immediate pension.  If you leave before 25 years, you will get a pension for time served when you reach retirement age.


----------



## NzrTrk1

Zoomie said:
			
		

> *Expect between three and four years to get your CF Pilot Wings.*  Once winged, you owe the CF seven years.  After that you can sign up for consecutive five year contracts - up to a total of 25 years before being eligible for an immediate pension.  If you leave before 25 years, you will get a pension for time served when you reach retirement age.



Is that for any CF Pilot or does that take:



> once recruited and sent to PFT, making it clear that you are interested in remaining at 3CFFTS will cut off years in the training mill



into consideration?


----------



## RobOfstie

Sorry for the Quick Thread Hi-Jack, but I posted in another thread a while ago and haven't had a reply.  I know CEOTP is used only as a last ditch effort to meet SIP requirements for the PILOT trade.  What I'm wondering is if the CEOTP - Internal plan is used in this way as well, or are there a limited number of spots allocated every year for this program?  I've heard of a few CEOTP - Internal transfers, but haven't heard of any kind of consitancy with this entry plan.   I spoke to a recruiter but they indicated that they had no access to this information and couldn't help me.

Regards,

Rob


----------



## Zoomie

Sorry Rob - can't help you there.

If you take the Phase 2 (Grob) route - you can expect to shave between 6-12 months off of the training cycle.  This is mostly due to the fact that we tend to load our Ph2 students on to the next Ph3 (usually within a couple of weeks).


----------



## RobOfstie

Thanks Zoomie.  I appreciate the reply.  I'll have to ask through the appropriate avenues at my unit to research this further for me.   I'm hoping with my Commercial heli ticket and fixed wing ticket I'll be able to utilize this entry plan should it open up in the future.  Or perhaps get my Group IV instrument rating and attemp to get in through HELI-COP, although from what I understand unless your ex-reg force this is very difficult.  

Thanks,

Rob


----------



## Loachman

HELICOP is designed for people off of the street with a commercial licence. It is currently the only way for a non-ex-Reg Force person to become a Res Force Pilot. It is possible to CT to the Reg F afterwards if desired.


----------



## RobOfstie

Loachman,

Have there been many Civies utilize the HELI-COP program in the past?  I've heard of one or two but it doesn't seem to be all that common.  Also, just wondering how much turbine time would be required for entry in through this program?  I know the 500 tt and IFR rating are requirements but I've also read that some turbine time is required.    Obviously the best course of action would be to contact 408 in Edmonton but I just want to be as educated as I can be before I contact them.


----------



## Loachman

Very few people have gone through HELICOP. We have one fellow here, who's been Reg Force for several years now.

You'll have to contact 408 Squadron for the latest info, and the availability of positions.


----------



## snooze

are pilot selection boards held at the same time as DEO boards for other trades? since pilot is currently oversubscribed, does that mean that there isn't currently an application deadline per se? when are the selection boards normally held for DEO pilot slots?


----------



## bdave

Loachman said:
			
		

> I am violating the Official Secrets Act here, so don't tell anybody else, but I fly Helicopters.
> 
> I do some paperpushing as well, in order to emulate other Officer professions as part of my cover.



I meant on what a heli pilot does exactly.
For example, taking someone through a usual day as a helicopter pilot.
What would the incentive be to becoming a helicopter pilot and cut off a chance of becoming a CF18 fighter pilot (other than: i prefer helicopters)?
Do helicopter pilots do mostly personnel transport? Search and rescue? Etc
How much time do you actually spend flying? I've heard someone say that CF18 pilots only really fly 150ish hours a year.


----------



## DesertFox

I am planning on going for DEO pilot next spring after I recieve my degree(april 2011), I have heard that serving in the reserves will help my chances of being selected for pilot. I was wondering if anyone knows if this is true or not? Im looking at joining a naval reserve unit for MARS officer to get some training done this summer and during the next school year in hopes that this will help give me an advantage for applying for pilot.  All other other things being equal would DEO or reserve officer transfer be the better choice for going for pilot? Im just worried that if I go into a trade like MARS that they will try to keep me away from pilot and push me towards MARS when I apply for transfer to reg force. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks


----------



## Loachman

bdave said:
			
		

> I meant on what a heli pilot does exactly.



That's actually not so easy to answer, at least at my typing speed.



			
				bdave said:
			
		

> For example, taking someone through a usual day as a helicopter pilot.



Again, difficult to do - what is "usual"? I just came back from six weeks of living on a cruise ship in Vancouver Harbour. I didn't fly much during that time for various reasons, and I'm not going to discuss everything that we did do. There was a little bit of mountain flying training, because we had the necessary primary training aids, some VIP and other personnel transport missions, some air intercept training, some site famils before the op actually started, and a whole bunch of standing by.

When it was done, some guys flew home in hels, and some of us went home in a C17 with three hels. On arrival in Trenton, we spent three hours offloading from about 2300 to 0200 and then five hours rebuilding the machines to fly them back to Borden. We pilots assisted the techs where able, mostly with manual labour tasks such as hauling the (bloody heavy) main rotor blade boxes and lifting the blades up to the heads for installation by those better qualified.

This past week has been fairly light, as we still have people and machines in Whistler for the Paralympics. A fair amount of clean-up and maintenance by our techs was required on the machines, as it is after any deployment, and there has been a fair amount of personal administration to catch up on by most of us. This morning I flew a two-hour Standard Manouevres and Emergencies trip just to get back into the basic currency stuff that we could not do in Vancouver, and a couple of instrument approaches. I'm doing a tactical handling trip tomorrow morning.

From the beginning of October 2008 until the end of April 2009 I was in KAF as a Mission Commander for the Sperwer TUAV, which followed several months of training and workups in Borden, Edmonton and Wainwright.

I spent about eight years in a major headquarters as the helicopter booking agent shortly before that.

I got much more flying in previous flying tours, and in a variety of places. I've flown all over non-communist Europe, Norway, England, and a few places in the US for a variety of reasons. I've lived in tents in all weather conditions and seasons for up to almost two months.

I plan exercises and other major activities, fly a variety of missions for ground troops, do VIP missions, static displays at the CNE, and occasionally spend a night or two in a Holiday Inn somewhere.



			
				bdave said:
			
		

> Do helicopter pilots do mostly personnel transport? Search and rescue? Etc



Tac Hel Squadrons have a secondary SAR role, but I've never trained for it.

We do airmobile troop insertions, rappel, and parachute missions. We sling cargo. We do light transport and escort roles (among others) in Kandahar.

And a bunch of other stuff.

I fly real low, I yank and bank, by sun, by moon and stars
I put on zippered clothing, and hang around in bars.

There really is no "usual" day.



			
				bdave said:
			
		

> How much time do you actually spend flying? I've heard someone say that CF18 pilots only really fly 150ish hours a year.



I would expect to get more than that, but that, too, depends.

And we don't have to live in Cold Lake or Bagotville.


----------



## bdave

Thank you 
If one wanted to be more focused in the SAR area, what would one do? Or do they put you where they please?


----------



## gcclarke

DesertFox said:
			
		

> I am planning on going for DEO pilot next spring after I recieve my degree(april 2011), I have heard that serving in the reserves will help my chances of being selected for pilot. I was wondering if anyone knows if this is true or not? Im looking at joining a naval reserve unit for MARS officer to get some training done this summer and during the next school year in hopes that this will help give me an advantage for applying for pilot.  All other other things being equal would DEO or reserve officer transfer be the better choice for going for pilot? Im just worried that if I go into a trade like MARS that they will try to keep me away from pilot and push me towards MARS when I apply for transfer to reg force. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks



Frankly, if the only reason that you might want to go MARS is to improve your chances of becoming a pilot, I highly suggest that you don't go MARS. 

The main "problem" that will pop up when you go to apply for a CT to pilot won't be that you're MARS and they're too short on them. It'll be that you want to be a pilot, and there's a bazillion more applicants than there are spots available. But if you join up as a MARSie only because you view it as a way to get your foot in the door as a pilot, well, you'll probably have a rather unpleasant time. Unless you're a really good actor, everyone else in the unit will likely rather quickly figure out that you don't really want to be there. In the end, this could even hurt your chances of a successful CT.

Now, that's making an assumption. If you want to be a pilot, but MARS is a perfectly acceptable alternative, then go ahead and give it a shot. But please don't try to use the Navy *only* as a way to pad your resume for the Air Force. In my humble opinion that would be an unconsiounable waste of public funds.


----------



## DesertFox

gcclarke,

Thanks. Yes I should have been more clear, pilot is what I want but MARS is the occupation I would like if I could not enter as a pilot. I would be more then happy to accept reg force MARS after I exhaust all my options for becoming a pilot, im just worried that if I go res MARS that they would not give me a shot at pilot. I am going to be upfront and honest about this too when I go into the interview.
I just went through the ROTP application process for pilot(completed everything but didnt get to go to ACS) but had to withdraw because I technically only have 2 semesters of my degree left after this one and not the minimum of 3. I was told that I was a good candidate and that I should start the DEO process next feb/march. This was my plan. Keep my grades high, continue volunteer work, and my athletics. But then I heard that service in the reserves is highly valued and taken into account for selection(I heard something about a points system) . So ive been looking into that, and I picked MARS because that is a occupation that I would like if pilot was unavailable to me(this would remain the case if I were to wait and go DEO anyway). I fully intend to try to make a career in the Canadain Forces in any capacity. I dont know if that changes anything but any more advice on it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


----------



## VodkaBoy

"Zero Pilots getting hired in 2009?" topic always seemed to me  to be weighed down by some gloomy air of inevitability and hopelessness. Many have humoured its accidental reference to the Japanese WWII plane, and rightly, because once the topic has exhausted itself shortly after the start of the 2009-10 fiscal year, there was little more to talk about.

Until now.

I would like to hear from the other pilot hopefuls, who are awaiting this "Fiscal New Year" as eagerly as I am.
Let's use this topic to share any information we recieve from our recruiters/file managers in the next while, and let's hope it's not another dry season for us DEO applicants.


----------



## snyper21

I like the title of this new thread... a bit more positive!

My situation is that I'm awaiting my aircrew selection, and I keep getting estimates of when I should be 'expected' to attend. Orginially it was January, then it became end of March early April, then it was mid to end of April, and now I just spoke to my recruiter and he simply told me I have to wait until about mid April to be informed about my dates. I'm extremely eager to not only get an offer, but to attend and successfuly complete this aircrew selection!


----------



## Beech Boy

Hey Guys,

I'll be very interested to see if anything opens up with the new fiscal year tomorrow. I was originally merit listed as a DEO applicant around the end of 2008 (after passing aircrew, etc...), since then I have just been getting my file updated as required. I'll be sure to share any news I receive.

Cheers


----------



## rcdemoral

FYI: So I went to apply last week.  The recruiter said that he -could not- even accept my application for pilot.  They were so full.  The only way he could accept an application was for someone going the ROTP (I think that is the acronym) route, which is when you do your university education through the military.  Those, like myself, who already had post-secondary education, have no chance.

So good luck to you guys, who got your apps in before this.  Hang in there!!


----------



## bdave

It seems many more people apply as DEO than ROTP.
Why is that?
The people applying as DEO, what degree are you applying with?


----------



## SkyHeff

It's not so much more people applying as DEO, but rather that limited/no DEO pilots have been hired in the past few years, leaving the DEO pool growing as new applicants come along.


----------



## bdave

Stukov said:
			
		

> Rough. Seems to be one of those things you have to be highly motivated for.



This comes as a surprise to you?


----------



## bdave

Heff18 said:
			
		

> It's not so much more people applying as DEO, but rather that limited/no DEO pilots have been hired in the past few years, leaving the DEO pool growing as new applicants come along.



The reason for this being?


----------



## SkyHeff

That the current backlog of pilots waiting to be trained is too large, meaning that DEO pilots positions are not required/nonexistent. Since ROTP is recruiting for <insert years> down the road, the expected future demand of pilots is what is used in offering positions now to ROTP students.

From what I've gathered from contacts, the demand for trained pilots is there (hence the large recruitment and resultant backlog), the supply of pilot hopefuls is there, but the training system is currently not pumping out near the required amount.

As a Captain I met this summer put it "I'm fully confident that within the next 2 to 200 years, this <backlog> will all be taken care of".


----------



## Flyer1987

Anyone know the intake for pilot April 2010?


----------



## derekreid

I talked with a recruiter online today, apparently still no intake numbers available for this year.

Hopefully we find out soon, I'd like to get the application process started.





			
				bdave said:
			
		

> The people applying as DEO, what degree are you applying with?



Chemistry here. At the recruiting centre, and possibly on this website somewhere, there is a chart that shows the preferred and acceptable degrees for each occupation.


----------



## Otis

Much to the shock of every Recruiter in the place ... some DEO Pilot positions just opened up for this year.

Good Luck all ...


----------



## Beech Boy

As a merit listed DEO pilot candidate that is very exciting news. Thanks for the information Otis!


----------



## Otis

For the first time in a LONG time, there is some intake for DEO Pilot.

There is also SOME intake for CEOTP Pilot.

Good Luck!


----------



## snyper21

Since there are new DEO pilot slots available, does that mean that aircrew selection will now open up for DEO candidates awaiting that course?


----------



## VodkaBoy

Otis said:
			
		

> Much to the shock of every Recruiter in the place ... some DEO Pilot positions just opened up for this year.


Awesome
Will they be contacting only those accepted? Or will they also call the non-selected and tell them the situation?
How long does it typically take to notify the selected?

Cheers


----------



## derekreid

Apparently I spoke too soon...

I was in to the recruiting centre yesterday, apparently the number is 63, which is very hopeful although there will likely be a lot of strong applications (two years worth, really). 




			
				snyper21 said:
			
		

> Since there are new DEO pilot slots available, does that mean that aircrew selection will now open up for DEO candidates awaiting that course?


I'm not an expert here, but I would imagine.


----------



## bdave

derekreid said:
			
		

> Chemistry here. At the recruiting centre, and possibly on this website somewhere, there is a chart that shows the preferred and acceptable degrees for each occupation.



Good stuff.  Thanks.


----------



## Dou You

derekreid said:
			
		

> I was in to the recruiting centre yesterday, apparently the number is 63, which is very hopeful although there will likely be a lot of strong applications (two years worth, really).



Is the intake of 63 just for DEO? Or is it the total intake which includes DEO, ROTP, and CEOTP? Just curious because 63 seems quite high for a trade that wasn't expected to have hardly DEO intake at all for a while. But then again I'm no expert either. And just out of curiosity does anyone know the number of ROTP Pilots selected this year?


----------



## derekreid

Dou You said:
			
		

> Is the intake of 63 just for DEO? Or is it the total intake which includes DEO, ROTP, and CEOTP? Just curious because 63 seems quite high for a trade that wasn't expected to have hardly DEO intake at all for a while. But then again I'm no expert either.



ROTP and DEO intakes are separate for sure. ROTP candidates would be 4 years behind in the pipeline, since they still need to do their degrees.

63 was much higher than most people expected. Good news for applicants nonetheless.


----------



## VodkaBoy

Seems pretty quiet on the forum about any DEO Pilot offers.
I wonder if they have started calling yet or if they are still putting things together.


----------



## ChrisG

According to the rumour mill applicants are being selected by HQ without reference to province  (re numbers) or local recommendation.    No word on whether some of those places are CEOPT or all DEO.  (Not sure why the military would  offer CEOPT when there must be a  easy sufficiency of DEO applicants after  two years.)   No word whther they will accept those who have already passed  ACS first or  any other criteria they may apply.   There was a rumour a little while ago that applicants who had done some pilot training might be preferred,  but again,  no official confirmation and that has certainly not been the practice in the past.

It's like playing a game where  there is one set of rules  we can all follow but there is a second set  and  no one will tell you what they are,  isn't it?


----------



## westcoastboy

Otis
Do you know how those DEO PILOT spots are being doled out, I'm a little confused how there could possibly be CEOPT spots available for PILOT. Is that not the exact same as DEO but a little less money and 12yrs to complete a degree.


----------



## Otis

Not a CLUE how they decide how many of what kind of spots are available ... all I get is the numbers saying we're looking for this many of this trade with that entry plan ...


----------



## Griffon

The number of slots for entry is determined by comparing the current manning level, forecasted attrition, and service requirements.  Right now the pilot occupation is very low compared to the PML (Preferred Manning Level) so right now they are taking in as many people in a year as the training system can handle.  There are more slots for DEO and CEOTP now than in previous years because it takes four years to send a candidate through officer training; therefore you can have a pilot at operational capability four years earlier if they don't need to be sent to RMC first.

Otis, CEOTP I personally find it difficult to compare DEO to CEOTP as they are quite different, but I do see the how you can make the comparison.  The military foots the bill for the degree in the case of CEOTP, and the unit is also responsible to provide some time to the member for studies, and to monitor degree progression.  A period of subsidised full time studies is also conservatively offered with mandatatory service incurred.  

They use CEOTP to supplement the intake numbers.  I think there would be a preference for the CF to intake DEO due to the mandate for a degreed officer corps, but there may be more difficulty in attracting such candidates, and so they use CEOTP to bump up yearly intake.

...at least that's how I think it all works...


----------



## Otis

Your reasoning is sound Griffon, but I have a couple of corrections for you:

You are correct that Pilot is low compared to the PML, but for the past few years we have declined to take DEO ... did the training system all-of-a-sudden "open up" or has there been a planning error by the C of C?

I don't know what your experience has been, but under CEOTP there is no guarantee of time for studies. Yes, most units will provide time when they are able, and yes, they are responsible to monitor and yes, there MAY BE a period of full time studies, but only the monitoring is ensured.

Lastly, your assumption that attracting DEO candidates is difficult is a complete error, and I have the stack of files for wanna-be pilots to prove it. (I in no way intend the term "wanna-be" to be derogatory, merely descriptive ... these people want to be pilots)

MY theory (and it's just that, I have no special info or insight) is that some people who want to become pilots, but may not be able to afford it after having completed their degrees, choose to attempt to join the CF in order to get the training. Combine that with the cut-backs in the civilian airlines and the number of EX-CF airline pilots and it becomes an attractive way of beefing up a resume.

My theory regarding the attractiveness of ROTP to the CF is this - "Obligatory service" ... yes, in theory, it saves the CF money when they don't have to pay for an education (DEO) ... however, the CF being a volunteer service (in that, it's not mandatory for Cdns to serve), a contract is just that, a contract, and we all know there are several ways to get out of a contract. I know LOTS of ex CF members who did not serve their entire 20+ years. Obligatory service incurred due to education however, THAT is much harder to get away from (the threat of having to pay back a LARGE scholarship and salary is pretty convincing)

SO, there you have it ... Pilot training with a guarantee of AT LEAST a few years service afterwards, or pilot training with a 'promise' of a few years service afterwards (and the conflict of a lot more money being offered civvie-side to entice the newly graduated)

Now - for all of the pilot applicants out there - again, I do not intend the term "wanna-be" to be derogatory, nor do I think that everyone is out to screw the system by getting their training and running away ... I am simply explaining HOW the CF MAY see ROTP as a preferred system to DEO when it comes to high-profile, high cost, lots-of-training, lots of civvie competition jobs. I'm sure that everyone feels that they are in it to serve their country and have every intention of completing at least their first contract, if not make the CF their career for life.


----------



## Zoomie

"wanna-be" is not derogatory - it is an apt description of baby CF pilots.

New Wing Grads (NWGs) are not really in a position to get a high paying job anymore than the 200hr wonders coming out of civi-flight school.  We can usually get at least two tours out of an aviator before the allure of the airlines drags them away.  In all reality, the grass isn't very green on the other side - we have a steady stream of re-enrollees coming back to the CF after the current downturn in the airline industry.  The 65% pay cut doesn't really make it too attractive either.

It's not a "promise" either - it's a restrictive release program that is instituted upon receipt of wings - 7 years owed.


----------



## famus

Sounds like ACS. 

Anyway I'm somewhere on that list of applicants and I'll post if I hear anything.


----------



## derekreid

ChrisG said:
			
		

> There was a rumour a little while ago that applicants who had done some pilot training might be preferred,  but again,  no official confirmation and that has certainly not been the practice in the past.



I can't imagine there's much truth in this. Folks who have their private license get no preferential treatment at ACS, so why in their application?

The way I see it, everyone that passes ACS should be square (agree with famus).


----------



## lstpierre

Speaking to a couple of recruiters and former CF pilot at work recently, it seems as though prior flight training experience is a pretty significant aspect of the rating of applications, especially for DEO and CEOTP. Makes perfect sense to me... They ask you about your work, education and other relevant assets in the interview. There is no logical reason why they would ignore someones PPL, CPL, or ATPL but give application points for their degree in underwater basket weaving. In fact, we spoke quite extensively about flight experience in the interview. Also, If they weren't interested in the flying applicants had done, why would they make licensed applicants bring their logbooks and licenses to the aircrew selection centre to be verified?

As for licensed applicants receiving no preferential treatment in ACS, this is true. However, if you have ever flown a plane you will see why. As mentioned in other threads, that machine is not like flying a real plane, even under IFR. Licensed applicants get no preferential treatment in aircrew selection because the simulator in no way tests your ability to fly an aircraft. 

Anyway, I mean no disrespect to anyone, just saying what I have heard and hoping that all the flight training pays off. Looks like there are two schools of thought on the "How much does prior flying experience matter" issue. To people with experience: More than anything in the world. To people without experience: Its irrelevant. 

All the best to all the hopefuls out there.


----------



## Strike

lstpierre said:
			
		

> Looks like there are two schools of thought on the "How much does prior flying experience matter" issue.  To people with experience: More than anything in the world. To people without experience: Its irrelevant.



A few pilots out here would disagree with your train of thought.  Given that you haven't gone through the whole training process it's a pretty big statement for you to make.  I dare say that this train of thought applies only to those who have yet to go through the military flying training system.  For those of us who have, specifically those who had prior experience, you will find people that are on either side of the fence.

I would almost compare it to someone in cadets thinking their experience would give them a leg up during basic.  Only to an extent - how to polish your boots, iron, do laundry and drill.  But these skills don't determine if you will pass or fail.  It just makes life 5% less stressful during the course.


----------



## lstpierre

Strike said:
			
		

> A few pilots out here would disagree with your train of thought.  Given that you haven't gone through the whole training process it's a pretty big statement for you to make.  I dare say that this train of thought applies only to those who have yet to go through the military flying training system.



That's what I meant  :nod:. I meant that there are 2 schools of thought for the applicants who have not gone through the process (the ones like me looking over these forums and noting the general theme of the comments), just as you said Strike. 

I'm not saying prior flight training will mean I have a greater chance of passing the course. Not at all in fact. I'm sure that all the qualified applicants on this forum would have just as great a chance to complete Transport Canada licensing requirements as anyone else including me, should they be willing to shell out the cash. So, its not *my* train of thought, I'm just reporting back what I had been told in my interview and by several recruiters recently, that's all.


----------



## Strike

lstpierre said:
			
		

> I'm just reporting back what I had been told in my interview and by several recruiters recently, that's all.



And how many of them are pilots?  I'm not trying to knock recruiters, but they, like all of us here, are limited by their experiences.  I could tell you all about the Infantry trade based on what I've read and seen, but I certainly couldn't tell you if being a park ranger and beating Mantracker will help you out in your training.  I dare say having flying experience will help, but only if you have a few hundred hours under your belt and were using it in something other than a recreational manner.

Used to be that if you had 200 hrs you could by-pass Portage and PFT.  Not sure if that is still the case and there were debates as to the usefullness of this method to the candidate.  That could be why they want to see log books.


----------



## Zoomie

Applicants with a CPL skip PFT - which also eliminates them from being able to take the fast-tracked Phase 2 Grob program.


----------



## lstpierre

Strike said:
			
		

> And how many of them are pilots?  I'm not trying to knock recruiters, but they, like all of us here, are limited by their experiences.  I could tell you all about the Infantry trade based on what I've read and seen, but I certainly couldn't tell you if being a park ranger and beating Mantracker will help you out in your training.  I dare say having flying experience will help, but only if you have a few hundred hours under your belt and were using it in something other than a recreational manner.
> 
> Used to be that if you had 200 hrs you could by-pass Portage and PFT.  Not sure if that is still the case and there were debates as to the usefullness of this method to the candidate.  That could be why they want to see log books.



Very fair points Strike. To clarify what I meant by "flying experience", I did mean some kind of CPL/ATPL and multi-IFR combo or some serious logbook hours...  Now before I get shot down again, I realize that this will STILL not guarantee passing all the phases  , but even if I thought it did I wouldn't argue it because the only opinions on the matter are those of the people making the decisions! 

PS. The Mantracker reference cracked me up a bit.


----------



## Strike

lstpierre said:
			
		

> PS. The Mantracker reference cracked me up a bit.



LOVE that show!


----------



## Headintheclouds

I was just wondering if anyone out there in internetland has been to Trenton for aircrew selection recently. If so, how many people were on the course. I've heard from my file manager that there are spots open, but I'm just wondering if I'm getting the truth.
Thanks


----------



## VodkaBoy

Headintheclouds said:
			
		

> I've heard from my file manager that there are spots open, but I'm just wondering if I'm getting the truth.



I was there in May 09. On my course there were 12 people. I was told they typically run a course every week/couple of weeks when they need to run them. 
If there are spots open then there are spots open, why would they tell you otherwise?


----------



## VodkaBoy

Strike said:
			
		

> But these skills don't determine if you will pass or fail.


No, but they help. On average.



			
				lstpierre said:
			
		

> I'm not saying prior flight training will mean I have a greater chance of passing the course. Not at all in fact.



In FACT, it does. For PFT at least.

There was a study done to find out what the success rate was for people with previous flying experience(PFE) on CAPSS and PFT.

As most know CAPSS has been proven an effective selection tool, probably why it is still in use. It is especially effective when predicting the success rate on PFT.

The study found that there was a "strong relationship between previous pilot experience and CAPSS results. There was also a substantial relationship between the number of hours of PFE and student performance on the course."

And since CAPSS success = better PFT success, then PFE = better PFT success.

In fact, applicants with prior flying experience of 100 hours or more from the sample used in the study, had 94.8% success rate in PFT as opposed to the success rate of 88.7% for candidates with less than 100hrs.

For details see:
David E Woycheshin "Validation of the Canadian Automated Pilot Selection System (CAPSS) against primary flying training results". Canadian Journal of Behavioural Science. FindArticles.com. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3717/is_200204/ai_n9065404/ 

and

http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFulltext/RTO/MP/RTO-MP-055///MP-055-19.pdf


----------



## Dou You

VodkaBoy said:
			
		

> The study found that there was a "strong relationship between previous pilot experience and CAPSS results. There was also a substantial relationship between the number of hours of PFE and student performance on the course."


Does this include previous Fighter hours?   A person on my Aircrew Selection course had actually flown in Iran on the F-5E many years back (can't remember exactly how many) with a whole bunch of hours (again, I can't remember exactly how many). But if that's not previous experience I don't know what is haha. Unfortunately he did not pass, and he was crushed. On the complete other end of the spectrum, I passed with no experience whatsoever. It was too bad he had failed though because he was a great guy with a great attitude. However, he has done everything he has needed to be sent back to Trenton for a second try. But it just goes to show, even with those studies, CAPSS is simply unpredictable. So my highly knowledgeable conclusion to my lengthy study is:  If you have what it takes to be a Pilot, you'll pass everything whether you started with PFE or not. If you don't have what it takes...well it was worth the try  ;D. It's that simple...haha.

Cheers!


----------



## SupersonicMax

VodkaBoy said:
			
		

> In FACT, it does. For PFT at least.



Dude, PFT and CAPPS are not courses yet. They are still part of the selection process. BFT and AFT are courses and this is where it really counts.  I had a CPL MIFR going onto BFT and while it did help me a little bit at the very beginning, it wasn't long before it became useless, just because of the different methods used in military flying.  During my civilian training, I never had to memorize 1 checklist.  On BFT, I "had" to memorize all of them.  Also, most of the syllabus is stuff that you would never do in the civilian world:  Low Level Nav, Aerobatics and Close Formation.  The aircraft you learn on is bigger, faster, more powerful and more complex than the average civilian trainer.  The procedures are much much much much much (you get the point?) more rigid than any civilian flight school will teach you.  There isn't much "thinking outside the box", at least in the initial stages.  You do what you are told, the way you are told. Period.  And good enough isn't normally good enough.  Once you are on CH9A in Moose Jaw, you may be somewhat qualified to talk about that kind of thing.  Until then, your advice is as good as a monkey's advice.


----------



## Otis

Woah, Zoomie ... back in your lane!

I will concede that you MAY be an expert on current courses for Pilots, and you have some experience with the current process and wait times, but PLEASE don't presume to tell people what the Recruiters do or how many of anything we're currently hiring unless you've been posted to a CFRC.

For the record, we do NOT "use Pilot as a lure" ... My colleagues and I have told countless numbers over the last two years that Pilot was closed. People who CHOSE to learn more about other trades did so, but in NO way did we ever encourage them to join as something to try to become a Pilot later.

Further to that, Pilot is currently open to DEO, ROTP AND CEOTP and there are quite a few more positions than 10.

 :threat:

Otis



			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> The pilot trade will never be closed officially.  Recruiters use the attraction of being a pilot as a lure to get people to take another trade.
> So... Pilot (32U) is still open to DEO and ROTP only.  Just as a heads up though, I CT‘d to the Regs back in 1999 and have just passed the halfway point on my course at Moose Jaw, I waited 1.5 years for the course to begin.  Back in ‘99 they recruited something in the order of 150 pilots.  This year they will probably only recruit around 10 pilots.  Good luck


----------



## lstpierre

Well I just got my offer for DEO pilot! Accepted it before he was done asking me. My head is spinning! Starting St. Jean at the end of September.


----------



## Beech Boy

I got the call today too! I'll be headed to St Jean at the end of September in the DEO Pilot stream. I guess I'll see you there  lstpierre, congrats!

Also, for anyone that doesn't get an offer right away I should let you know that the recruiter told me the main board isn't sitting until the summer and that only a few spots were being awarded right away. So the door is likely still open even if you don't get the call right away.

I'm so excited right now, I handed my application in at the end of October 2007 and it is finally coming together!

Cheers.


----------



## snyper21

Congrats on your offers guys!
I got the call today and received the dates for my ASC (April 26). I like the part about the board not sitting until the summer... I would hate to find out that all DEO pilot positions were taken before I finish my ASC.


----------



## lstpierre

Thanks Beech Boy! Congrats to you too. Look forward to meeting you and some other future cf pilots in late September!

Snyper21, did you get a conditional offer before ASC? I believe congratulations are in order for you too if so.


----------



## JG29

Well, i've been lurking on this thread for awhile, time to make a contribution.

Got my unofficial offer for DEO Pilot today, my MCC told me it will be made official next week. Words cannot explain how happy I am. I thought that this day might never come. I applied in November 2007, did ASC in November of 2008. Congrats everyone else who got their offers, and those still waiting: Stick with it, it's worth it in the end.


----------



## snyper21

Istpierre, no I did not get a conditional offer. Although I was told that I was a competitive applicant during my interview a few months ago. Hopefully that means I'll get an offer if I pass aircrew!


----------



## seaware

Time to break out my first post as well. Got my unofficial offer for DEO today so am pretty excited!. I applied back in 2007 as well so it's been a long process, but definitely worth it. 

Looks like end of September St Jean so will see a few of you guys out there.... yah, pushups in the snow!


----------



## Zoomie

Otis said:
			
		

> Woah, Zoomie ... back in your lane!



Did you see the date of that post that you just quoted?

When I wrote that post EIGHT years ago I knew many people working the CFRC scene - I was also still an ab-initio pilot and very much in the thick of it all.

Even to this day - the intent of my message still stands on its own.

Please put the pistols away, gentlemen fight with swords.


----------



## VodkaBoy

Congrats on the offers guys!
I can imagine this is probably the happiest day of your lives for some of you.
Anyone hear word on Component Transfer/Occupational Transfer DEO offers? 

Cheers


----------



## CJP

Congrats to everyone who just got their offer! I applied in July 2008, but since the position was closed at the time I couldn't do my interview until this week. I was told 68 DEO spots were open when I went to the recruiters (April 8th, 2010 [this was 2 hours after they got the wire stating how many pilots were being hired this year, and every recruiter in the building was surprised by the news]), so hopefully by the time i get to and finish ACS there are a few spots left. good luck to everyone who applied, trust me I know how stressful this process can be!


----------



## Douglas 188

Hello everyone,

I have looked and read into many of the posts on this topic in this forum, but would like some direction, or some insight for obtaing my descision.
Currently i have succesfully finished my BMQ course as a reservist and am doing my BMQ land this June. My dream has always been to be a pilot in the military, so i joined the reserves to see how the forces would be like and if it is something I might consider as a carreer. So far I enjoy it.  I am planning to go back to university this September and get a bachelors degree in something (haven't decided yet). I have already got "my feet wet" you can say, in the reserves, but my lifetime goal is to be a pilot. I currently filled out the application form to RMC and maybe have a crack at it, but if i do get denied entry i can always continue my studies at my local university.

So I need help on putting me in the right direction, or "where can/do I go from here"?

Cheers


----------



## Otis

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Did you see the date of that post that you just quoted?
> 
> When I wrote that post EIGHT years ago I knew many people working the CFRC scene - I was also still an ab-initio pilot and very much in the thick of it all.
> 
> Even to this day - the intent of my message still stands on its own.
> 
> Please put the pistols away, gentlemen fight with swords.




Woah ... My Sincerest apologies ... I just realized that somehow my website settings have gone all screwy ... I always have had it set to read the most recent posts first, but somehow it has reversed itself and now the earliest posts show up at the front.

I never looked at the date because the latest posts were always right there ... so no, I didn't look ... again my apologies to Zoomie (despite what my wife says, I CAN admit when I'm wrong)

Mea Culpa...

Otis

(now, does anyone know how I change my settings back again?)


----------



## Griffon

I am really glad to hear that offers have started to flow out for the DEO entry.  Congratulations to you guys for getting accepted into the Pilot programme!  I myself applied for CEOTP (Internal), but I haven't heard anything yet.  Messages were supposed to start going out last month,  but when I called my PSO and he said he hasn't heard anything back for anybody on base, good or bad.  So I guess it's still the waiting game for me...has anybody been accepted for CEOTP yet?


----------



## Dombi

I am scheduled for Trenton May 10th to May 14th. Somebody else will be there for CAPSS that week ?

Dombi


----------



## JG29

It's Official! 

Just got the word from my MCC. BMOQ starts September 27th. Now I'm just waiting for the enrollment package from the file manager, meanwhile...better go for a run! Good luck to everyone else.

JG


----------



## Headintheclouds

Dombi,
I'm there the 10th as well. Are you doing anything to prep other than studying the manual? Where are you coming from?


----------



## Dombi

Headintheclouds said:
			
		

> Dombi,
> I'm there the 10th as well. Are you doing anything to prep other than studying the manual? Where are you coming from?



Hi there!

I don't think there's much we can do beside reading the manual. I am from Montreal and applied for Pilot (Direct Entry) last August. I hold a PPL since 2001 but I have only 60 hours in my logbook. Do you have some experience in piloting ?

I will take the train here around 10:00am on Sunday and arrive at Belleville around 1:00pm. I think I will have some time to kill. You take the train too ?

Dombi


----------



## brian_k

Just so you guys know what you are getting into.

I have been sitting around on OJT for a year and still have a year to go. On OJT you are probably going to just sit around doing nothing all day every day. If you do get tasked to do something it is some pointless job such as moving chairs around, measuring light poles, etc. I am lucky because I did ROTP and I got to do PFT in between 3rd and 4th year. So this means I only have 3 years between flight courses. Those unlucky souls that are DEO or CEOTP join, get there basic course then are sent to second language school for 8 months. After the language training they are finally put on the PFT waiting list. This is about 2 years. After that they get back from PFT they do OJT for another 1.5 to 2 years waiting for Moose Jaw. When you finally get there it will probably be running behind so you will sit around some more. In short be prepared to do nothing for 2 to 5 years and become bitter and resentful about your stagnant career.


----------



## CallOfDuty

uuuuugggghhhh....sounds pretty brutal.  But, it's good to be prepared for those interested....


----------



## brian_k

Yeah, with 225+ people waiting for flight training I am surprised that people are still being recruited.


----------



## SupersonicMax

brian_k said:
			
		

> On OJT you are probably going to just sit around doing nothing all day every day. If you do get tasked to do something it is some pointless job such as moving chairs around, measuring light poles, etc.



Nothing prevents you from doing actual work. Get involved in your unit, try to find some projects that needs to be taken care of, talk to people.  It's sad to say, but most pilots in a Unit don't have the time to babysit you and find work for you.  A little initiative never killed people.



			
				brian_k said:
			
		

> In short be prepared to do nothing for 2 to 5 years and become bitter and resentful about your stagnant career.



Again, it's a personnal choice.  Nothing prevents you from completing your OPMEs and doing AFOD Block 2.  Do it now, while you have time.  I can guarantee you that you won't have time during and after training.  Try to take the BEW Course, second language classes (some bases offer them).  Learn about the Harvard II (there is a TON of information if you ask/dig), about flying in general, ask questions to the pilots around you.  This is Professionnal Development and it will help your career. No, it may not be flying, but you will do other things than flying once you are qualified.


----------



## dimsum

To add to that, if you're doing OJT on a sqn or even on an airbase, ask if you can get up on flights.  SAR sqns hold spotter courses, Herc sqns go to Alert/Thule, etc.


----------



## brian_k

> Nothing prevents you from doing actual work. Get involved in your unit, try to find some projects that needs to be taken care of, talk to people.  It's sad to say, but most pilots in a Unit don't have the time to babysit you and find work for you.  A little initiative never killed people.


I did this and took over coordinating first aid at my wing. I like the position, it is rewarding, but I joined to fly not to teach first aid for 5 years.


> Nothing prevents you from completing your OPMEs and doing AFOD Block 2.


I am doing them. 


> This is Professional Development and it will help your career.


Really? I think the biggest boost to my career would be to be wings qualified in less than 7 years then I can maybe get a promotion. Also, a few people that haven't finished their degrees asked to go to school part time and were rejected. Why can this time not be used to finish their degree.

I'm not asking to be babysat by my superiors, their isn't anything they can do to get me in a plane sooner. I am just posting a warning here to people that may be considering joining. If you have no problem waiting for 5 years go for it, otherwise seriously consider your options. 

I joined because I wanted to do something interesting. I didn't want to be stuck behind a desk and I wanted to go out and make a difference. OJT is the opposite of that.


----------



## SupersonicMax

brian_k,

Again, attitude is a big thing.  I had to wait too.  1 year before Moose Jaw and about a year between courses.  Did I hate my life during that time?  No, I made the most of it.  It is what I expected to do as a pilot when I first joined?  No.  However, this is part of being a military pilot.  You are getting paid (quite a good salary I might add).  Pilots on the civy side waiting for a flying position don't get nearly the same treatment you are getting now.  And yes, they have to wait.  Quite long time these days, on a much lower wage.

Don't whine, keep the chin up and make the most out of every situation.  Do that and you'll do fine.


----------



## brian_k

SupersonicMax,

I should have waited a day to cool off before posting. I found out on Friday that instead of leaving in the coming months for Moose Jaw, the course is now delayed an extra year and with the rumours that back pay is not going to be given I was pretty pissed off and it showed in the tone of my posts. The point was not to rant but to just let others now that this is happening since the recruiting centers are not mentioning it when people join. If I had know when I signed up it probably wouldn't have changed anything but for some people this might be a deal break.


----------



## Headintheclouds

Dombi,

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, DEO applicant around the same time, PPL. I'm driving in from Ottawa probably a little later in the day. I've been doing some sim practice as well as studying the manual.
See you there!


----------



## brian_k

I just want to add that no we no longer recieve back pay for the time we should have been promoted.


----------



## Sharpie821

Hello Dombi and Headintheclouds,

I will also be leaving next week for aircrew.  See you there!


----------



## Zoomie

brian_k said:
			
		

> I just want to add that no we no longer recieve back pay for the time we should have been promoted.



You will no longer receive back pay for any Captain pay incentives - you still receive it for Lt.


----------



## brian_k

> You will no longer receive back pay for any Captain pay incentives - you still receive it for Lt.



That isn't as bad of a 'kick us while we are down' as I though it was. What happens to the guys that already got it? Is it being taken back from their pay?


----------



## gcclarke

Recovery of pay is only be done when a payment was made contrary to the policy at the time the payment was made. Should said policy be changed after the fact, the member is good to go. For which I'm glad, as I'd have a bit of trouble scrounging up enough money to re-pay that signing bonus that they no longer offer to engineers.


----------



## Dombi

Hello Sharpie and HeadInTheClouds!

So how well have you done? As you may know I failed and had to leave pretty quick to get my train at 11:00. I wonder how many of us (we were 11 I think) have passed/failed. Have you talked with few others to know?

Thank you for the info.

Dombi



			
				Sharpie821 said:
			
		

> Hello Dombi and Headintheclouds,
> 
> I will also be leaving next week for aircrew.  See you there!


----------



## kc86

I spoke with a recruiter and was told to contact him in September. Is there any plausible reason for this or was he telling me to take a hike.


----------



## kc86

And also where will my CPL and Group 1 instrument get me. Will it help or am I as far ahead as the guy with no log book (in terms of successfully getting into the CF as a pilot)


----------



## Sharpie821

Hey Dombi,

I made it through with 6 other people.  Are you going to try again in a year?


----------



## Dombi

6 on 11, not so bad. Congrat, it was not an easy task. I don't think I will try again. The waiting time to get on PFT (1 year) + all the following waiting make me reconsider this trade (the result of my test helps too!). I think I will receive an offer for ACSO anytime soon and will have to make that big decision then... Go or No go..

Good luck !!!

Dombi



			
				Sharpie821 said:
			
		

> Hey Dombi,
> 
> I made it through with 6 other people.  Are you going to try again in a year?


----------



## lstpierre

kc86 said:
			
		

> I spoke with a recruiter and was told to contact him in September. Is there any plausible reason for this or was he telling me to take a hike.



Did you mention that you have your CPL and multi IFR? When I applied 2 years ago, they told me to go away because no spots were open, but then after I mentioned that I had a multi IFR and CPL with a few hundred hours, they told me to apply and see what happens. 

I can't speak for whether or not your licenses and ratings will help you get your wings as I only just received my offer recently and haven't even started training, but I can tell you that it seems it gives you a decent edge in the recruitment process for getting an offer (at least it seemed to for me). Also, after having gone through the aircrew selection centre, there is nobody on this planet that could ever convince me that having your licenses wouldn't help you through ASC (especially the IFR). Already having instrument flying skills definitely helped.  

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe people with a CPL get to bypass PFT in Portage-La-Prairie, which cuts out a big chunk of waiting.


----------



## Zoomie

lstpierre said:
			
		

> Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe people with a CPL get to bypass PFT in Portage-La-Prairie, which cuts out a big chunk of waiting.



There are certain criteria that allow for a PFT bypass - but - by no means does it make your wait shorter.  In some cases it actually adds a year.  Allow me to explain.

If you are a die-hard jet-wannabe, then Moose Jaw is your only option.  However, if all you want is to fly Helo or Multi - you can apply for Phase 2 Grob at Portage.  The caveat for this, you must have completed PFT recently.  The wait for Phase 2 Grob is measured in weeks to months, vice months to years for Moose Jaw.  The wait after Phase 2 is minimal too - sometimes in the matter of days.  If you bypass PFT, you do not have this option.  Choose wisely.


----------



## snyper21

7/11 pass, not too shabby.
Congrats on those that made it past ASC. I'm booked for the week of May 31st.


----------



## brian_k

> I think I will receive an offer for ACSO anytime soon


Thats a good choice. You will be trade qualified before the other guys even get to PFT.


----------



## brian_k

> I don't know what your experience has been, but under CEOTP there is no guarantee of time for studies. Yes, most units will provide time when they are able, and yes, they are responsible to monitor and yes, there MAY BE a period of full time studies, but only the monitoring is ensured.



A canforgen recently came out stating that no CEOTP will be given time to go to school during working hours while on OJT. So don't expect to use any of your 4 years on OJT to get a degree unless it is in the evening.


----------



## Griffon

brian_k,
The CANAIRGEN stated that there will be no time given towards studies for the mbr's degree, but the unit CAN give time for the completion of OPMEs.  CEOTP officers can also apply for full time subsidized studies on a competitive basis, but this will incur further obligatory service.  If one were to elect to attain a BMASc degree from RMC, the OPMEs count towards the degree.  Prior military courses and experience can count towards that degree program as well (subject to PLAR by RMC).  So there's still options...


----------



## brian_k

I know that people are still allowed to attend OPME's. I just find it odd that people aren't being pushed to attend school and try to complete their degrees in the 3+ years of OJT. I would assume university would be a higher priority then driving ramp taxi, measure the distance the distance between telephone poles or just staring at a computer screen.


----------



## Griffon

First problem: You assumed . But  you're totally right, it would be a shame to allow those on OJT to fill up their spare time during the day being productive.  It is much more important to have them ensure the popcorn machine is full.


----------



## brian_k

Uh oh, I forgot about the popcorn! BRB!


----------



## nickanick

Hi, Im studying for a university degree right now and quite interest in joining the air force to become a pilot.
How long would the training be? from a civilian to a pilot. I did some research, and found out that I need to learn French for 2nd language.
I dont know a single word of French, should I learn it during my acadmaic year be4 I join the force?
Thank you for the reply!!!!


----------



## gcclarke

nickanick said:
			
		

> Hi, Im studying for a university degree right now and quite interest in joining the air force to become a pilot.
> How long would the training be? from a civilian to a pilot. I did some research, and found out that I need to learn French for 2nd language.
> I dont know a single word of French, should I learn it during my acadmaic year be4 I join the force?
> Thank you for the reply!!!!



I take it that this reasearch that you mentioned didn't consist of reading the 22 pages of questions and answers on this topic in this very thread?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

:rofl:


----------



## brian_k

> How long would the training be? from a civilian to a pilot.


If you go ROTP it could be possible to get by with only 2 years OJT and 2 years flight training. So about 4 years after gradutating to get wings.
If you go DEO it will probably be 1 year french, 4 years OJT (with PFT half way through this),  and 2 years flight training. So it could be as long as 7 years after graduating to get your wings.


----------



## snyper21

7 years eh..


----------



## SupersonicMax

Graduated from RMC in May 2006, got my wings in July 2008.  A little over 2 years.  Now, end of May 2010, I'm just about to finish my Fighter Pilot Course.


----------



## snyper21

2 years versus 7 is quite a large difference. I guess everyone experiences different wait times/delays/backlogs. 

ps,
Supersonic Max, I'm very jelous of where you are in your training.


----------



## brian_k

Supersonic, I'm not sure if you are trying to mislead people about current waits or just rubbing it in that the system worked better 4 years ago. The waits today (2010) are a lot worse than 2006. This is currently at a peak for wait times. As they have cut back recruiting in the past few years the wait times should be dropping in a few more years. ROTP has a much lower wait because typically PFT is taken between 3rd and 4th year. That is why I have an OJT of 2+ years then I am off to BFT. Due to the back log some ROTP's aren't getting on to PFT until the fall after they graduate, then they start the 2 year wait. DEO's and CEOTP's have to go through SLT before they are put on the wait list for PFT. This wait is also about 2 years. If they can get on PFT-E then it may only be another 6 months but if they are going to BFT then it will be another 2 years. Add in course lengths and you have a time closing in on 6 to 7 years for wings.


----------



## Beech Boy

Brian_k, I'd like to thank you for your upfront posts regarding wait times for pilot. I am a DEO applicant that received a job offer and will start basic training in September. For me personally, the prospect of being any kind of pilot in the CF is too attractive to turn down even if it does take up to 7 years to get my wings. However, it is very relevant information for anyone considering pilot as a career option.

With that said, do you expect the fact that the CF did not hire any DEO pilots in 2009 to help with the backlog in any significant way for someone in my situation?

Thanks again.


----------



## brian_k

Beech Boy, the wait time should start to drop again but I can't see it returning anytime soon to what should be  resonable waits. If you don't care about getting jets then take the PFT-E option and this should limit your OJT time to 2 years. Last year they began a trial of sending 2 people to texas for a streamline to jets. This should be wraping up soon. It would take some of the pressure of Moose Jaw if they started sending more people but I have heard that it is not really feasable due to the high costs. OJT can be fun but just make sure that you talk to someone before you ask to be posted to a unit. Shredding paper gets boring fast. I hope tha I am wrong and that the wait times are fixed for you. Best of luck.


----------



## MAJONES

Beech,
I joined in Dec 05, got wings in July 09.  One thing to bear in mind is that the powers that be tend to quote conservative wait times.  I finished French Nov 06 and was told to expect Moose Jaw early 09.  As I worked through OJT my Moose Jaw date kept getting pushed forward and I wound up there in March 08 (just a year and a bit of OJT).  There was a back log at Moose Jaw, but steps have been taken to remedy that situation.  There will still be some waiting involved, but don't be surprised if things move a bit faster than the worst case scenarios you have been given.


----------



## brian_k

MAJONES

That is interesting to hear. I have experience the opposite. My date has been pushed back 3 times. I started off looking at 6 months and it eventually kept getting bumped back to two years. I think if it had started at 2 years would have been less stressful than seeing it continually get farther away. 

If we can conclude one thing from our two experiences is that a lot can change in a few years. Right now the waits are extreme but hopefully by the time Beech is on the waiting list this will have been sorted out.


----------



## SupersonicMax

brian_k said:
			
		

> Supersonic, I'm not sure if you are trying to mislead people about current waits or just rubbing it in that the system worked better 4 years ago.



I am trying to prove a point.  Which is neighter.



			
				brian_k said:
			
		

> The waits today (2010) are a lot worse than 2006. This is currently at a peak for wait times. As they have cut back recruiting in the past few years the wait times should be dropping in a few more years.



People that graduated from RMC a year before me waited for a year and a half before going to Moose Jaw.  I waited half that time.  The year before that, the wait was 0.  Waiting time varies a lot from year to year.  



			
				brian_k said:
			
		

> Due to the back log some ROTP's aren't getting on to PFT until the fall after they graduate, then they start the 2 year wait.



I may be wrong about the current situation but the then training coordinator told us our Moose Jaw number was assigned as soon as we had a commission and in the pilot trade, regardless of wether or not you did PFT.  If your number came and you hadn't done PFT yet, you would go straight from Portage to Moose Jaw.



			
				brian_k said:
			
		

> Add in course lengths and you have a time closing in on 6 to 7 years for wings.



6-7 years to wings is not too realistic.  You are DEO, your wait will be 2 years.  You'll get your wings 2 years later, that's 4 years.  In fact, I got my wings 1 year and 3 months after I started Moose Jaw.  Helo guys/Multi Guys got it at about the same time.  4-5 years may be more realistic, considering a 2 year wait before going to Moose Jaw.

Dude, I suggest you drop the attitude.  The attitudes doesn't you and your buddies any good, on course or on the job, except bringing the morale down.  See the positive side of the coin and make the best of every situation.


----------



## brian_k

> I am trying to prove a point.  Which is neighter.


Please explain.


> Waiting time varies a lot from year to year.


You are correct. Me and my fellow OJT's are at the peak of the long waits. It will most likely improve. 


> I may be wrong about the current situation but the then training coordinator told us our Moose Jaw number was assigned as soon as we had a commission and in the pilot trade, regardless of wether or not you did PFT.  If your number came and you hadn't done PFT yet, you would go straight from Portage to Moose Jaw.


First hand I have not seen this happen. Do you have a REG to support this? I know more than a few people that would like to advance their position on the waiting list based on what you have described.


> Dude, I suggest you drop the attitude.  The attitudes doesn't you and your buddies any good, on course or on the job, except bringing the morale down.  See the positive side of the coin and make the best of every situation.


You are right. We sit around and shoot the shite about our 2 to 4 year OJT (I'm not being sarcastic) and this brings morale down. What would you suggest we do to see the positive side of the coin? And please don't tell me this is a good time for OPME's cause that is just plain insulting.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Well...there is the "pensionable time" bone I'll throw out there and then disappear.

 :blotto:


----------



## SupersonicMax

brian_k said:
			
		

> Do you have a REG to support this? I know more than a few people that would like to advance their position on the waiting list based on what you have described.



There is no Regulation, no rules.  It's whatever the training coordinator wants.  As I said, it's the way it was done when I went through. Don't know how it works now.  But that's not the point.



			
				brian_k said:
			
		

> You are right. We sit around and shoot the shite about our 2 to 4 year OJT (I'm not being sarcastic) and this brings morale down.



Focusing on the negative and bitching will bring the morale down.  Try to see the positive side of OJTing.  It's not all that bad.



			
				brian_k said:
			
		

> What would you suggest we do to see the positive side of the coin? And please don't tell me this is a good time for OPME's cause that is just plain insulting.



Dude, you have the more time now than you'll have in your career. Take time for yourself.  OPMEs, why would that be insulting?  I wish I had them finished 4 years ago when I had time.  Now I find myself scrambling to finish them, while I still have a bit of time.  Do you know the Emergency Actions of the Harvard II cold?  Do you know how to do a Point-to-Point?  Read about flying.  Go up on flights, try to get experience in the cockpit and try figuring out what's going on.  That will help you later during training.  That's what OJT is about.  Take advantage of that time.  Don't sit around and shoot the shit about how things suck for you.

I tell you that because it will not change.  There will always be "good" reasons to bitch.  You get to Moose Jaw and guess what.  You are the Junior course.  You hit the flight line but hardly fly.  You go flying and for whatever reason, you fucked up. Hard. "It was because of this and that, certainly not mine"  

Bitching and complaining won't get you anywhere, and will get you noticed. In a bad way.  Keep yourself busy, have some initiative, show a positive attitude.  Skills are about 20% of flying.  80% is the attitude, the strengh of character. 

Life could be worst.  You could be working for a civilian operator making less than 20K a year loading Pop and Chips in the back of a Metroliner, waiting several years to get in the right seat of an airplane. You are making more than 40K a year (pensionable time, as EITS mentionned) and have damn good working conditions.  

If you don't like it, you can always sign the release papers.  Within 6 months, you'll be out the door working on your civilian career.


----------



## Zoomie

C'mon guys, life could always be a lot worse.  You could be posted to fly plastic jets and, by default, enjoy the company of other men.   >


----------



## SupersonicMax

Hey,  I'm not the one spending hours on end sitting by some other men, gossiping!  And I don't have to deal with Navs


----------



## MAJONES

> And please don't tell me this is a good time for OPME's cause that is just plain insulting.



How about AFOD?


----------



## Beech Boy

Thanks again for the info guys. I can definitely see how having training dates continuously pushed back would be frustrating and that's why I'd like to reiterate how valuable it is for me to here about that first hand experience up front. Right now, I am trying to control my expectations regarding timeline so that I know what to expect and can accept it as positively as possible.

On a somewhat separate note. I read earlier in this thread that you would not be in line for PFT until you had completed second language training. However, my recruiter (who is a pilot) told me that second language training was secondary to flight training and it would be possible for SLT to be delayed if flight training is available or that you could even get pulled out of SLT for PFT. Can someone please clarify which is accurate.

As always, thanks for all of the information.


----------



## MAJONES

> On a somewhat separate note. I read earlier in this thread that you would not be in line for PFT until you had completed second language training. However, my recruiter (who is a pilot) told me that second language training was secondary to flight training and it would be possible for SLT to be delayed if flight training is available or that you could even get pulled out of SLT for PFT. Can someone please clarify which is accurate.


It is possible, but don't expect it to happen.  A number of years ago there was a group of pilots that bypassed SLT and went straight to PFT.  That happened because the word came down to spool up pilot training and there were no warm bodies to fill the slots; they fixed this problem by taking people right after basic and sending them into flight training.  Since that time BMOQ has been turning out student pilots faster than Portage can absorb them.


----------



## Folgers

On that note, how and when are your French skills assessed when determining if you need to go to SLT? I ask because I used to be pretty decent with French (I took French immersion), however, my skills have definitely gotten rusty over the years since then (10 years ago!). I’m scheduled for BMOQ Sept 27th, and wondering how much use there will be in working on my French over the summer. Do you need to be absolutely fluent? (not realistic for me). Also, is it always the full 8 months or is it possible to have this reduced somewhat if you already possess some ability in French. 

Thanks.


----------



## armyvern

Folgers said:
			
		

> On that note, how and when are your French skills assessed when determining if you need to go to SLT? I ask because I used to be pretty decent with French (I took French immersion), however, my skills have definitely gotten rusty over the years since then (10 years ago!). I’m scheduled for BMOQ Sept 27th, and wondering how much use there will be in working on my French over the summer. Do you need to be absolutely fluent? (not realistic for me). Also, is it always the full 8 months or is it possible to have this reduced somewhat if you already possess some ability in French.
> 
> Thanks.



The "year long french course" is 9.5 months if you get the three BBBs on the first round of exams; if not, it's 10.5 months as you have to wait 30 days (and stay in class) to be retested in any exam you do not achieve the B in ... 

You are able to make arrangements with the Language School at whichever base to arrange for profile examination and score. You do not have to undertake a french course to do that. In your case, you may manage to pull off BBBs or better without undergoing any course. They do also offer refresher courses - in which case you'd be tested by them simply for placement purposes into a refresher level prior to undergoing the PSAC ELS.

I started out at zero 9.5 months ago and did my exams over the last week. Two scores in (grammar & reading comprhension) ... just waiting for one more (oral) and then, _knock knock knock_, I am hopefully out of here.


----------



## MAJONES

We were given the chance to have our french assessed towards the end of BMOQ.  Not sure how fluent you need to be; we had ~5 people try and one person got to skip SLT.


----------



## Folgers

ArmyVern and Majones - thanks for the info! I think I will definitely try and brush up over the summer. 

Beech Boy - Congrats on the Pilot offer! - I'll see you in St Jean (I'm going DEO Pilot as well).


----------



## Perfect_Clark

The dirty secret about SLT is that they tell you the reason you do it is that because the wait for pilot training is so long, you may as well learn french, right? Well, at least in the experience of several guys on my BMOQ, the case is that you don't get slotted for PFT until after SLT is over. DEO guys I had on BMOQ with me summer 2008 are still waiting for PFT while since then I went back for 4th year university, graduated, did 4 months OJT, then PFT, now I'm awaiting Moose Jaw. They sat in St. Jean almost the entire time I was in school for my 4th year, and got no closer to PFT.

This may not always be the case, but it is rather compelling that I got to go back to school for 8 months, get commissioned, do some OJT, then do PFT all before they even get to start flight training.


----------



## Beech Boy

Thanks Folgers, I'll see you at Basic!

Thanks for the information Perfect_Clark... I was afraid that may be the case, unfortunately it doesn't sound like there is any way around it from my end. Again, I'm glad to hear it now though so that I can manage my expectations and not be disappointed when it happens.


----------



## DesertFox

I was told at my interview last week that SLT was no longer required. I believe the actual requirment is the same as the university degree, it is only required for promotion to major, this is just what I've heard from a couple sources no idea if it's true though. Anyone know if there is truth to this? Also anyone know if the flight training issues has been resolved seeing as they are taking 64 DEO pilots this year?


----------



## brian_k

You will still probably be put on it and no, the training issues aren't fixed.


----------



## Stephen9o3

I have a couple questions, been searching around but haven't found information specific enough for my case.

So, I just finished my 2nd year of a Chemistry degree at a civilian university, and I'm interested in enrolling in ROTP with hopes of becoming a Pilot. First off, is it too late to enroll in ROTP? If it makes a difference, I've done the CFAT/medical/PT test already for reserves, was hoping to do reserve BMQ this summer but I'm not sure if I'll get the chance. Secondly, I'm aware that there's a lot of extra testing involved for those wanting to become pilots, where and when is this testing done, and how difficult is it to get accepted?

Thanks


----------



## Dou You

Stephen9o3 said:
			
		

> First off, is it too late to enroll in ROTP? If it makes a difference, I've done the CFAT/medical/PT test already for reserves, was hoping to do reserve BMQ this summer but I'm not sure if I'll get the chance.


Yes, it is too late for this year. Having done the CFAT, medical, etc., will definitely help you in how smooth your application process goes next year though.



			
				Stephen9o3 said:
			
		

> Secondly, I'm aware that there's a lot of extra testing involved for those wanting to become pilots, where and when is this testing done, and how difficult is it to get accepted?


A simple search of "Pilot selection" or Aircrew Selection" would have given you the answer...The Aircrew Selection Center is located in Trenton, and it's done whenever the CF decides they want to send you there.

How difficult is it to get accepted? Well, it's difficult.   Acceptance is based on many things, and some of those things you may not even have control over. Good luck.


----------



## trampbike

Stephen9o3 said:
			
		

> I have a couple questions, been searching around but haven't found information specific enough for my case.
> 
> So, I just finished my 2nd year of a Chemistry degree at a civilian university, and I'm interested in enrolling in ROTP with hopes of becoming a Pilot. First off, is it too late to enroll in ROTP? If it makes a difference, I've done the CFAT/medical/PT test already for reserves, was hoping to do reserve BMQ this summer but I'm not sure if I'll get the chance. Secondly, I'm aware that there's a lot of extra testing involved for those wanting to become pilots, where and when is this testing done, and how difficult is it to get accepted?
> 
> Thanks



This is my first post here! I hope my english writing won't be too bad (first language is french)

I'm in a similar situation as you are Stephen. I applied in May for ROTP-civilian university, since I've already started a meteorology degree in Montrel (UQAM). I should be done with my CPL 2 or 3 months (which I consider to be worth almost nothing!)

 I've been told by the recruiter I should have news by the end of June.

I have one little question regarding the best route I should take: RMC or civilian university? Which one is prefered most of the time? The recruiter was not to clear on that point. He said most of the time it was better to choose RMC, but on the other hand, since I already had accumulated a couple of credits toward my civilian degree, it might be better to try to stay there. 

If my application is rejected at some point, I plan on joining the reserve (infantry or artillery) and get my officer training. During that time, I would finish my degree and reapply for ROTP or DEO, depending upon the time I can apply again. Does that seem a good plan? 

Thanks you all
Olivier


----------



## 2010newbie

trampbike said:
			
		

> I should be done with my CPL 2 or 3 months (which I consider to be worth almost nothing!)



Embry Riddle Aeronautical University grants PLAR credits for flight licenses. If I remember correctly, it is around 36 credit hours for a CPL Multi-IFR. I could never get a straight answer out of them. Because the license is Canadian, they said I needed to send the documentation to them for review. They said the US CPL Multi-IFR received PLAR for all of the elective courses for the Associate's degree in Pro Aero. Now that I've been accepted ROTP for Pilot, I have put my CPL on hold, as well as my Embry-Riddle degree. I was granted about 60% of my ER courses as transfer credit to the Canadian school I will be attending in September though.

You didn't mention at what stage of the application process you were at, so I'm assuming that since you applied in May you haven't done Aircrew Selection yet. You never want to plan to fail, but you might want to reconsider completing your CPL prior to the Aircrew selection. If you do fail, you will need to get the next level license prior to redoing the Aircrew Selection. I don't know what they do if you have a CPL and fail, ATPL maybe???


----------



## VodkaBoy

Finally received my CT offer today! PRes MARS - Reg Pilot
Posted to 442 Transport and Rescue Squadron in Comox starting July 29.

It has been 3 years since I started the process, so I am having some difficulty believing it actually happened, just like that.
Getting in was hard, especially the waiting. But it was good practice for what is to come! 

Now I must mentally prepare myself for the long and hard road to Wings and beyond.

I wish luck to all the pilot hopefuls out there, be patient and stay focused on your dream - it will happen!
I got my chance and I will darn well make the best of it!


----------



## CallOfDuty

Congratulations VodkaBoy!  Good luck in the future and let us know how you make out  :nod:


----------



## McD

3 years!! Outstanding! Congratulations all the best.


----------



## Beech Boy

Congrats VodkaBoy,

I have first hand knowledge of what the wait you've been through is like and how it feels to finally get the call! Its great to see another example of persistence paying off. I'll echo your sentiment to other pilot hopefuls, if you want it bad enough stick with it and never give up!

Cheers,

Beech.


----------



## DesertFox

I was just wondering if during all the wait times before and between flight training would you be able to do some continuing studies towards a masters degree. I understand that OJT is part of the training but say once you have done a year of it is it possible to go work towards a masters degree while waiting for flight training?


----------



## TimBit

DesertFox, one of my good friends did exactly that 5 years ago, had to show up once a week at the Sqn, paid full salary and attended university full time. He began flight training pretty much straight after his graduation, on top of that.


----------



## brian_k

> DesertFox, one of my good friends did exactly that 5 years ago, had to show up once a week at the Sqn, paid full salary and attended university full time. He began flight training pretty much straight after his graduation, on top of that.



It depends on the unit but it is quite rare. A colleague of mine manage to go for his masters but most of the people I know are not even being allow to work towards their degree during working hours.


----------



## Civilian Convert

Hi folks.  I'm new to the forum.  Forgive me if this question has been answered previously; I did look over the last dozen or so pages of the thread and didn't see it addressed.  At this point I'm trying to acquire information on the CEOTP program.  A bit of my background;  I've been flying commercially for several years, mostly bush and float work.  I have about 3500 hrs and am also MEIFR rated.  I have a smattering off college/uni courses that hopefully would knock off at least a years worth of the acquisition of a degree through distance ed.   My specific question has to do with the (dreaded?!) OJT I've been reading about.  Is it possible to be accepted into pilot training but delay the actual entry into the CF until the actual flight training or second language training is set to start.  I ask because I'd much prefer to keep working(flying) at my civilian job.  The thought of giving up flying to wait to begin flying seems somewhat contradictory.  From what I've read it seems that most entrants into the CEOTP tend to have low total flying experience and aren't actively working as pilots, although I'm sure there are exceptions.   Any feedback is appreciated.


----------



## Zoomie

In order to attend Basic training - you need to be in the employ of Her Majesty.  In order to hold a spot on the waiting list for training - you need to be in the employ of Her Majesty.

Unfortunately, there is no "easy button" for pilot training.


----------



## brian_k

Civilian Convert,
Lastest from the rumour mill is that OJT times will be dropping back from 2-4 years to acceptable levels. It sounds like some of the problems have been somewhat sorted out. This is only the latest rumour so take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Civilian Convert

Thanks for the responses gents.  I don't need an 'easy button' Zoomie, but I would prefer to avoid the 'total demoralization' button of over-extended OJT.  

CivCon


----------



## aesop081

Civilian Convert said:
			
		

> button of over-extended OJT.



You will have plenty of company. New pilot OJT just arrived at my Sqn from doing PFT and has around 18 months to wait with us til its time for Moose Jaw.


----------



## brian_k

> 'total demoralization' button of over-extended OJT


Perfect way of describing it. 


> You will have plenty of company. New pilot OJT just arrived at my Sqn from doing PFT and has around 18 months to wait with us til its time for Moose Jaw.


Yay, lets all be bitter together! But, seriously, it does help that others in the same situation.


----------



## Zoomie

Guys - the CF is all about ups and downs.  We must all collectively grin and bear it.  I just graduated a Multi-Engine pilot a couple of months ago and posted him to Comox to fly the Aurora.  As soon as he arrived he was told don't worry about flying anything for a bit, you're off to learn how to fly UAVs.  Real bummer for him - 2+ years in the training mill and denied an operational flying tour until after playing flight sim in the desert for a bit.  

Take home message - everyone gets the smelly end of the stick from time to time.


----------



## eurowing

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Real bummer for him - 2+ years in the training mill and denied an operational flying tour until after playing flight sim in the desert for a bit.
> 
> Take home message - everyone gets the smelly end of the stick from time to time.



I don't feel for him a bit.  If he succeeds as an AVO, he will be saving NATO lives and assisting in taking out the enemy.


----------



## SupersonicMax

It still sucks to spend 2-3 years doing something you do not do once you're qualified.


----------



## trampbike

Hi, I applied for ROTP civi University 2011-2012 in May and I want to be a military pilot. I'm currently doing a meteorology in Montréal and doing my civilian commercial pilot "training". My written exam is already done and I'm very close to having the hours to do the flight test and I could apply for the licence by the end of the summer.

I asked the question in the "Zero pilots" thread and talked for a while to a very helping recruiter this morning at Montréal CFRC, but I could not get a definite answer: *Should I get my civilian CPL or not? * I guess a CPL is somehow a good thing to have on your application, but here are my two reasons why I'm not sure I should apply for the license: 

- If I fail ACS, I will have to get the next level of licensing to be allowed to take ACS again in the following years. When you already have the CPL, do you need then to get the ATPL, or is adding an instrument or instructor rating good enough to try again?

- Also, let's say everything works very well for me and I get to the pilot formation, if I have my CPL, I have to skip PFT and go right through BFT right? Is it possible to choose to get the PFT anyway? 
I would not mind at all spending a longer time in OJT in order to do PFT, since I don't feel having a CPL necessarily makes you good enough to go right through BFT. 

Wether I get my CPL or not, I will continue to fly in order to aquire news skills, try new aircrafts and become more and more precise. 

Thank you all.


----------



## Zoomie

trampbike said:
			
		

> *Should I get my civilian CPL or not? * I guess a CPL is somehow a good thing to have on your application, but here are my two reasons why I'm not sure I should apply for the license:



My personal recommendation to you is, no you should not.  Mostly for the reasons that you have already stipulated.  Extra ratings do not count, if you have a CPL already you will need to get your ATPL (1500+ hours, etc) in order to try again.

PFT is a necessary evil when it comes to military aviation - it establishes the correct mindset for proceeding on to BFT.


----------



## Good2Golf

Zoomie said:
			
		

> ...PFT is a necessary evil when it comes to military aviation - it establishes the correct mindset for proceeding on to BFT.



This.  :nod:


Folks will argue about whether they were helped by having a CPL or not, but it increases the chances of learning things differently than how the military want you to learn them, and the military evaluates/selects not only by performance, but by time required to get to that level of performance.  That's the clincher, if you have an ingrained behaviour/performance pattern you picked up through your CPL training that is at odds with facilitating your learning and performance in the military aviation environment, that's a negative.  My Phase II BFT course in Moose Jaw had a trial cadre of CPL guys on it who skipped Phase I PFT.  To a man, they commented how different the expectations were in military training than from the Seneca's, Mount Royal's, Canador's.  Statistically, their pass rate was the same as those without CPLs who had gone through Phase I in Portage, so at least then, there was no discernible advantage to having a CPL.

Cheers
G2G


----------



## trampbike

Zoomie said:
			
		

> PFT is a necessary evil when it comes to military aviation - it establishes the correct mindset for proceeding on to BFT.



Exactly why I'm reluctant getting my CPL. I want to do PFT. Plus, there is a huge margin between CPL and ATPL, so I'm now quite convinced I should not get my CPL now. If something goes wrong at ACS, at least it'll be just a flight test before I get the CPL, so I would be ready for the next year.


----------



## snyper21

Hey dude, 

absolutely do not get your CPL before you attend ASC. I just got back from ASC a little over a month ago, and let me tell you, it's no walk in the park (especially the last session). 3/4 failed including me. It was very devastating, but It's not really a problem for me because I'm already booked for my PPL lessons and will pass it next year. 
By the way, I'm also from Montreal, if you feel like going for a coffee or something and chatting about aircrew selection, I can give you some really KEY advice about what to expect on those simulator sessions.

Cheers,

Snyper


----------



## dimsum

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It still sucks to spend 2-3 years doing something you do not do once you're qualified.



About the guy who went from Multi school to UAVs, I know him and have been talking to him about this.  He hasn't done the Aurora MOAT yet so really, is he qualified based on the squadron's viewpoint?  

With a bit of waiting involved to get on MOAT anyways, getting a deployment out of the way isn't necessarily a bad thing.   Some people will have....shall we say "reservations" about  "playing flight sim in the desert", but as Eurowing said, that unit does save lives.

...and as Forrest Gump said, that's all I have to say about that.


----------



## Good2Golf

Good point, Dimsum!  

There's "new wing grad" and then there's "OTU/type-qualified."  There can be a while before you get to the OTU, and then it typically takes several months to qualify on type, before which you are not operationally employable in the pilot MOSID at your respective unit.  All I'll say is that when a UAV-driver gets to shake hands with and be thanked in real life by someone that was months before only a little glowing blob on a screen that needed help....well, life/job/work doesn't get much more rewarding than that.  Folks shouldn't poo poo UAVs as "uncool", "not sexy", whatever...there are a bunch of guys and gals who very much appreciated (and owe their lives to) the UAV folks!

Cheers
G2G


----------



## SupersonicMax

I never said it's not a job that is appreciated, however from an aviator point of view, it's not what I would want to do on my first tour (or second, third.....)


----------



## eurowing

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I never said it's not a job that is appreciated, however from an aviator point of view, it's not what I would want to do on my first tour (or second, third.....)


I might be wrong, but that statement comes across as "It's beneath me".  I know "aviators" who have come back to do second tours here.  I sense it is just not a "cool job" to some.  Too bad, but I guess the airshow circuit is more fun, if not as rewarding.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Well you _could_ put that spin on it, but that might not necessarily be the right spin.

I had 2 platforms I could have went to, Aurora's or Sea Kings...and I did NOT want to go Sea King.  Not because it was beneath me, I just didn't want to fly in choppers off the back of frigates.  

I know guys in the Armoured Corps who are only really interested in tanks.  They don't think Recce is beneath them...they just aren' t that interested in it.

Thats the "sping" I put on it; SSM just isn't interested in UAVs, same as I am not interested in Sea Kings or Cyclones.

Cheers.


----------



## aesop081

eurowing said:
			
		

> Too bad, but I guess the airshow circuit is more fun, if not as rewarding.



Its not about the aishows either. I have thus far had no interest in UAVs because i remustered in order to actualy be flying in something. You know, be in the air, doing my job.

Do i know AVOs and POs that want to go back a second time ? I sure do. Will i be interested in the future ? Quite possibly.

It was never a question of being "beneath me" so you can just stop painting the rest of us as just a bunch of show offs who only seek the airshow crowds.

As far as being rewarding, that is something not limited to UAVs in Afghanistan. You may not know it but there are other things going on in the world. Some of the flights in my logbook were quite rewarding thanks.


----------



## eurowing

Actually, EITS you may be right, I just woke up and can't get back to sleep after only 4 hrs and another 12 hr shift looms.
I guess that might make me less likely to be charitable in my view.  Apologies for being cranky old guy.

I have always liked the challenge of new jobs.  Naval Res, to Artillery, to Air Force and a bunch of platforms to work on and fly in.  Favorite was the F5, least fave was the F18.  I just don't see F-18's doing anything overseas in the near future and can't fathom why anyone would NOT want to be here, especially when it is a short time operational tour.  I had to release from the CF to come to Afghanistan after unsuccessful applications for 3 highly sought after positions available to my rank and trade.

Going to try to go back to sleep.


----------



## aesop081

eurowing said:
			
		

> can't fathom why anyone would NOT want to be here, especially when it is a short time operational tour.



Beleive me i would love to. I would much prefer to do it with my current airframe.


----------



## Good2Golf

At the moment, the TACP is about the only place fast air drivers have as a reliable means of getting into theatre.  That said, a fast air guy is coming in as the next JTF-A Air Wing Comd soon, so there are other positions that come up from time to time.

I took SSM's statement at face value that HE was not interested in being an AVO/PO.  Nothing wrong with that, and I respect the personal sentiment.  However, I have lots of buds who have done the job and they found it very rewarding.  While it might not have been #1 on my list of things to do either (as it wasn't on many of theirs), I would likely have still done it if asked ('t'asked) and have likely found the experience as rewarding as my friends.

That said, in several communities other than fast air (and LRP), there are numerous opportunities to get in the sand box directly, so AVO/PO might not appeal to those guys who have a high probability of deploying in their primary (by a/c type) duties.

Cheers
G2G


----------



## Zoomie

I would give my left nut to be over "there" doing the AVO thing.  Unfortunately, training positions are protected vehemently by the Division - they won't let us go anywhere and do anything except our core task.


----------



## eurowing

I am slightly more rested... and was clearly an ass.  I really came across poorly.  I shouldn't have leapt to conclusions that were not specified.


----------



## trampbike

snyper21 said:
			
		

> Hey dude,
> 
> absolutely do not get your CPL before you attend ASC. I just got back from ASC a little over a month ago, and let me tell you, it's no walk in the park (especially the last session). 3/4 failed including me. It was very devastating, but It's not really a problem for me because I'm already booked for my PPL lessons and will pass it next year.
> By the way, I'm also from Montreal, if you feel like going for a coffee or something and chatting about aircrew selection, I can give you some really KEY advice about what to expect on those simulator sessions.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Snyper



Allright! You and the others confirmed what I thought and I will not apply for the CPL this summer. Anyway, besides looking good on a resume, it does not change a thing that I don't have the license, since I will continue to fly anyway (trying to master a taildragger these days!) in order to gain experience and improve. It's not the piece of paper issued by Transport Canada that will change something, since I do not want to work in civil aviation.

Thanks everyone


----------



## CJP

trampbike said:
			
		

> - Also, let's say everything works very well for me and I get to the pilot formation, if I have my CPL, I have to skip PFT and go right through BFT right? Is it possible to choose to get the PFT anyway?
> I would not mind at all spending a longer time in OJT in order to do PFT, since I don't feel having a CPL necessarily makes you good enough to go right through BFT.



This is a question I have been wondering about for quite some time as well. Does anyone have an answer? I do have my commercial but since I've finished I haven't been able to afford flying while completing my degree. That combined with the fact that military flying is inherently different than civilian leans me towards wanting to take PFT despite the wait times (if its an option).


----------



## brian_k

A colleague of mine is in a similar situation. He was only a few hours shy of his CPL  when he joined. Now he is wishing he would have completed it and got the PFT bypass. He has been waiting for PFT for 1.5 years and will have to wait again for BFT. He says that he would have preferred just waiting for BFT. That being said, as some other posters have pointed out, PFT teaches you to fly how the military wants. Just keep this in mind when you make your decision.


----------



## Good2Golf

CJP, I don't know the answer to whether having a CPL forces a mandatory bypass of PFT, but I'll dig a round a bit, or Zoomie might be able to ask the Phase 1 guys down the flight line what the policy is.  I can't see you being forced to the streaming route if you wish to go through the full selection/training process.

Brian, the wait is frustrating, no doubt, but once your friend is operational at a squadron years from now, he may just recall the time during OJT as a few more years added to his pension.  (that and perhaps the source of a few good stories at his wings grad party!)    

Cheers
G2G


----------



## brian_k

> Brian, the wait is frustrating, no doubt, but once your friend is operational at a squadron years from now, he may just recall the time during OJT as a few more years added to his pension.  (that and perhaps the source of a few good stories at his wings grad party!)



I'm not saying there aren't some interesting aspects of OJT, I'm just adding that I personnally know someone who wishes they had the PFT bypass and with only a few more hours would have gotten it. Who knows, he may get to Moose Jaw and say "Wow, I am glad that I took PFT." Right now he would still have gone on OJT before BFT so I am just adding it as some food for thought for the guys joinining that almost have a CPL. I am rather biased against OJT but I would be speaking out of line to say weather it is better to bypass PFT or not.  

BTW, to the guys looking to join as a pilot. I generally rant about how shitty OJT is but I usually post about it when I am particularly pissed off about something. OJT can be fun, it is long but you can do some interesting things and it is often fairly slack. There is lots of leeway for fun activities and tons of time for sports and the gym. That being said, most of us would rather be flying. I have a 3 year gap between my PFT and BFT (your wait time won't be this long) so I have forgotten most of what I was taught on PFT, so keep that in mind if your are deciding on a bypass or not. Either way, when you make a decision stick with it and enjoy it. It's an adventure.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I had 4 years between PFT and BFT and still did very well on course..  PFT has nothing to do with BFT.


----------



## brian_k

> I had 4 years between PFT and BFT and still did very well on course..  PFT has nothing to do with BFT.



Mind if I ask why you had to wait so long?

Also, CPL guys considering looking at a bypass, take what SuperSonicMax said and the fact that a bypass can decrease your wait time into consideration.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I never said PFT was useless, however the flying you do on PFT has nothing to do with the flying you do on BFT.  The way military does buisness and how they teach their students is what you can get out of it.  But don't think because you aced PFT that you'll ace BFT.


----------



## 3green

I believe a CPL from an "accredited" school (whatever that means, it's on the CF's list) will get you a PFT bypass. I know of several people who have done this. I don't think they were at any disadvantage when they did Moose Jaw but then again you may argue they had an advantage because they have already done a fair amount of training, are somewhat experienced in an aircraft and understand IFR rules, meteorology etc. But, I know of several guys who were former professional pilots, have over a thousand hours experience as a CP, and failed hard. I know many guys who never even touched an airplane before the military and were consistently the top of every course. It has a lot to do with the individual. I'm not sure all the money you'd invest in a CPL is worth it since the military will work hard to break all your civilian habits and instill it's own philosophy. It could save you some time I suppose and perhaps getting your wings a year earlier is worth the $

PFT is good because it's an introduction to the military way of flight training which is very different than your local flying school - very different. You get used to a specific format and method of approaching each lesson, each maneuver etc. That will allow you to get with the program in MJ - which is a bigger, more sophisticated learning curve but follows a similar format. PFT, is not the be all, end all of flight training however. There are parts of the course that probably could use an overhaul. It's a civilian run organization that uses civilian instructors and there is some controversy over some of the levels of instruction. I'm not going to go there, but the last I heard the latest version of the course is about 28 hours - not much and the syllabus is quite simple. It doesn't cover what a PPL does and the only thing extra it adds is intro aerobatics.

PFT has been unofficially described (rightly or wrongly) as a "selection course" as students are evaluated on their potential to proceed through the rest of flight training successfully. Doing this evaluation in an airplane is the most relevant way. CAPSS hopefully weeded out most of what needed to be weeded, PFT is suppose to get the rest. It's a short course and you have to make the grade fast or your done. Moose Jaw has been described unofficially as a "training" course as they'd like every student to pass and will work to "fix" your problems and help you meet the standards. If you start a MJ course, you've been selected to be trained as a pilot. Now, not every student can fix their problems and achieve the standard - and inevitably people are failed off course. 

MJ doesn't pickup where PFT left off. There is no real connection between the courses. You'll get to MJ and start right from the basics - but within a handful of flights and I think under 10 hours, you're sent solo on a 1100 hp monster. So if you're not making the grade quickly right from the start, you're in trouble. MJ is a great leveler of the playing field. Guys with no experience can top the course. Guys with tons of experience often fail. It's very different flying than any civy flight school or even PFT teaches. It's a whole different world and you have to adapt fast.


----------



## Good2Golf

> ...PFT has been unofficially described (rightly or wrongly) as a "selection course" as students are evaluated on their potential to proceed through the rest of flight training successfully. Doing this evaluation in an airplane is the most relevant way. CAPSS hopefully weeded out most of what needed to be weeded, PFT is suppose to get the rest. It's a short course and you have to make the grade fast or your done. Moose Jaw has been described unofficially as a "training" course as they'd like every student to pass and will work to "fix" your problems and help you meet the standards. If you start a MJ course, you've been selected to be trained as a pilot. Now, not every student can fix their problems and achieve the standard - and inevitably people are failed off course...



That's actually a pretty good description of the Phase 1 v. Phase 2 emphasis.  :nod:

Cheers
G2G


----------



## CJP

Wow, thanks for all the information guys. I just got my job offer Friday, so now I'll have to put it all together and figure out a plan. I'm not sure if its correct, but the accredited schools may be certain colleges that offer aviation diplomas. I know the school I went to used to be considered as an acceptable school under the old community college entry plan (CCEP), but that program was dropped before I graduated unfortunately.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I believe any CPL will bypass PFT.  Change from the past.


----------



## FlightPathUnknown

I'm amazed how fast the pilot positions fill up!
 I submitted my online application less than 2 weeks ago, and went in to CFRC Toronto to submit the rest of my docs, only to find out that the DEO positions had already been closed.

Unfortunately, I was told to wait it out until next April. Does anyone have any suggestions on what my options are for the time being, besides calling in once in a while to check for an open spot?


----------



## Beech Boy

FlightPathUnknown,

Assuming you have your heart set on Pilot and are not open to pursuing another trade in the CF, the best advice I can give you is to resume your normal life as if you will never get the position. I say this because the process of getting a job will be a long one (likely years) with a lot of ups and downs. There are many factors some of which are in your control, some not, that will determine if you are eligible or not.

Another tip would be to extensively read through the threads in this forum, it will help to give you some realistic perspective with regard to the road ahead of you based on what others have gone through in the past.

Aside from that all you can really do is keep popping by the recruiting centre occasionally so they remember you (in a good way) and so you'll be the first to know if they start processing applications.

Increasing your flying experience would also make your application more competitive, but this is a costly investment and the difference it will make on your file is uncertain.

My 2 cents, take it for what its worth.

Beech


----------



## Good2Golf

As Beech Boy said, be patient.  A few months, maybe 8-10 months, will seem like not much time if you get accepted and enter the training system.  Use the time to work on your fitness, hone your organizational skills and other general "getting my life in good shape" so that when the call comes, you are all sorted out and ready to go!  :nod:

Trust me, as much as folks want to help make things move along, we are dealing with a large organization.  I say that not to speak ill of the CF, far from it, but it is what it is, a large organization, and sometimes things don't move as quickly as someone waiting by a phone might like.  A good friend worked at IBM for years and we used to enjoy trying to out do each other with stories about how slow things can move in our organizations.  Just think, Scott Adams never spent a single day of his life in the military, yet every Dilbert cartoon I read couldn't hit the nail closer on the head.  

At the very least, I would recommend getting a copy of the book, "From the Ground Up (Millennium Edition): (ISBN# 978-0969005483)  to familiarize yourself with aviation and flying.

Best of luck when the opening come up again.

G2G


----------



## seaware

If you're set on pilot only then continuing your life is good advice. When I was first told to wait until next April I went back to school, which worked out well since it was another 2 years before I got my acceptance.

Also talk to your recruiter about bringing up weaker parts of your application to ensure you are competitive when the next round of positions opens up. This doesn't necessarily have to be flight experience; could be extra-curricular activities that involve team work and/or leadership, sports, community activities, training/certificates etc.

Best of luck!


----------



## FlightPathUnknown

thanks very much for the advice, it's much appreciated.
To adress some of the points brought up:
My 3 choices in the Airforce was Pilot, Aerospace Engineer, and Aerospace controller. As of 2 weeks ago, only the Pilot position was open (DEO), and the latter 2 closed. I'm definitely interested in all 3 positions, so hopefully one will open up, but my preference is with pilot.

In terms of the wait periods and reading material, I've gone through all the pages in this thread, as well as the 'personal stories' threads (among others), and have learned a great deal. Also, as I've previously applied to several civilian gov't jobs (mostly federal) i'm used to the wait periods (8 months to a year doesn't surprise me).

As for now, as already suggested, the plan is to further work on physical fitness and wait patiently until something opens up. 
Thanks again


----------



## Boom King

I am also in the wait until next year.  Originally applied in April for Aerospace Control Officer and Air Combat Systems Officer (Air Nav).  After I wrote my CFAT, the positions closed.  The only other two positions left that I could apply for were MARS and Pilot.  I never thought of applying for pilot as I always thought that you had to have perfect vision but my recruiter said the requirements have changed.  Did my medical and got V2.  Did my interview and they were impressed.  Had my eyes checked out, blood work done and ECG and they sent my file over to Ottawa for medical clearance and for possible invite for Air Crew selection.  Called my recruiter this week to check on my status and he said that all spots were filled last week.  Basically my file is on long-term hold and they said to call back in October where they will find out whether I will qualify for nomination for Air Crew selection and there is a possibility that they may have Air Crew selection late this year or early next year.


----------



## FlightPathUnknown

Boom King,
i'm surprised that even though your application was in, and you had gone through medical exam(s), you still have to wait....then again i'm not sure how the system works, but I would have guessed that you would have a spot at least


----------



## rdane042

Hi Guys,

I am also on the same boat, recently completed my Medical and Interview, but was told that no spot was available and I should give them a follow up call on April 2011.
I am working as an engineer but, as aviation has been my passion since I was a young boy, I finally managed to get my PPL and CPL and I am currently pursuing my Flight Instructor rating.
I think besides continuing my boring desk job and trying to stay in shape, this can be a good excuse to keep up flying while waiting for a call from CFRC within next 8 to 10 months!!! ... 

Good luck everyone!


----------



## Folgers

I have a question for pilots that have done or are doing OJT – I’m wondering how conducive the life is to keeping a steady place of residence within the city you are doing your OJT. Or do you bounce around enough on the various courses that a yearly lease on an apartment is not really practical? I realize that Moosejaw will require getting rid of my place, but given the training backlogs I hear of, that is still a ways away for me. 

The reason I’m wondering about this issue is because I’m heading off to BMOQ for Sept 27th, and I have the opportunity to sublet my place until I’m back in Winnipeg (where I’d like to do my OJT) at which point I could move back in (saving me the hassle of moving stuff, etc). Or am I better off to save the hassle and just go clean slate right from the start?

Any advice is appreciated.


----------



## MAJONES

Odds are that you will be posted to one place for OJT and stay there for the duration.  I only know of one fellow that got his posting changed during OJT, and he had to talk very fast to the powers that be to make it happen.  That means that keeping a residence should be very little trouble.  I know that the short courses (Aeromedical Training and Survival Training) are all temporary duty which means that you don't pay quarters while you are there.  I'm not sure about the longer courses (PFT and BFT).  I know that some of the fellows on my course kept primary residences elsewhere and I don't think they got charged for quarters (but I do believe they had to pay rations).


----------



## Flyer1987

Hey guys, saw that some of you that got offer letters are starting course in September. I will possibly see some of you there in November since I was told that I only have to do BMOQ part II Nov. 4th-Dec. 17th. I have been in the reserves since 2005 while I was in university. My question is regarding part II and whether or not it is difficult to enter training half way through a course. Not really familiar with the transition between the two parts especially regarding the level of PT that will be involved and how someone would be injected into an existing course, if that is even the way it is done. Just wondering if anyone here had any knowledge on this. Thanks


----------



## brian_k

> I’m wondering how conducive the life is to keeping a steady place of residence within the city you are doing your OJT. Or do you bounce around enough on the various courses that a yearly lease on an apartment is not really practical?



A few CEOTP OJT's on my wing bought houses even though everyone said they wouldn't be here very long. They are now really happy that they did since it has been 2+ years they are waiting. I'm not say buy a house but definitely keep your apartment. The only down side, albeit very small, is that for some reason you don't get Winnipeg for OJT.


----------



## Folgers

Majones and Brian K - thanks for answering my question!


----------



## SkyHeff

@Flyer1987: I just finished BMOQ and we had a bunch of UTPNCM's, BOTP'ers and guys that had Reserve BMQ join our course in Week 8. We lost about 5 of those to the Express Test as they failed to meet the minimum's at St-Jean for PT. All the rest had no real problems transitioning into the course, the biggest one was over having to get rid of the cap badges they earned and put the Corn Flake on. Once they 'adjusted' back into the CFLRS way of doing things, it was smooth sailing and we appreciated having them and their outside experience on course (especially reminding us that life outside CFLRS was vastly different, haha).

Edit: On a side note, while it may be different with DEO's than us low salaried ROTP's, don't remind us how much more you get paid with your reserve time than us


----------



## Zoomie

Heff18 said:
			
		

> the biggest one was over having to get rid of the cap badges they earned and put the Corn Flake on.



Funny enough - there is no reference that states the member must relinquish their cap-badge - it seems as though the course staff was imposing their personal beliefs.  I did BOTC 2 and never wore a cornflake, I wore it once before, many years before that and was never going to wear it again.

Joining mid-course is a no brainer.  You still have to live through the normal chicken-poop and really won't learn much more than you already know/knew.  Personally I found that I had lots of time to sleep and enjoy the Quebec countryside.


----------



## SkyHeff

@





			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> Funny enough - there is no reference that states the member must relinquish their cap-badge - it seems as though the course staff was imposing their personal beliefs.



This one actually came down from the CO of the school at the time. I remember our staff saying 'if you guys don't like it, then please, feel free to go talk to the Sergeant-Major about it' lol.

@





			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> Personally I found that I had lots of time to sleep and enjoy the Quebec countryside



On that note, the two guys in my pod that came Week 8 did get an extra hour or two a night. They'd call it after duty staff came by.


----------



## brian_k

Here is a little update for those that are interested.

I am finally going to Moose Jaw, Hurray. My course date has bounced around a lot but it seems like the theme was a large push back of the date then a gradual shift forward. It would be a couple zero load courses in the winter that move everything back then slowly move up. This latest shift moved me from Feb 2011 up to this November =). My total wait was less than expected. I thought the wait for BFT was going to be 2+ years but it turned out to only be 1.7 years. The Moose Jaw wait seems to be getting short but that being said there is still a decent wait for PFT if you are CEOTP or DEO. They just bumped a bunch of people from PFT this winter and moved them back to probably July. Anyway, I thought I would just share the OJT times will hopefully shrink with time. Good luck to everyone.


----------



## DesertFox

brian_k,

When you say your BFT wait of 1.7 years, is that from being put on the list after SLT or 1.7 years after PFT?
Thanks


----------



## brian_k

> When you say your BFT wait of 1.7 years, is that from being put on the list after SLT or 1.7 years after PFT?



I was ROTP and got luck and managed to do PFT between 3rd and 4th year and I didn't have to take SLT. My wait started after graduation in April 2009 and I will be starting course in Dec 2010. Are you CEOTP or DEO?


----------



## SupersonicMax

brian_k said:
			
		

> My total wait was less than expected. I thought the wait for BFT was going to be 2+ years but it turned out to only be 1.7 years. The Moose Jaw wait seems to be getting short but that being said there is still a decent wait for PFT if you are CEOTP or DEO. They just bumped a bunch of people from PFT this winter and moved them back to probably July. Anyway, I thought I would just share the OJT times will hopefully shrink with time. Good luck to everyone.



So all that bitching for no reason!


----------



## TimBit

Well, seriously... 1.7 years (what does that even mean anyway??? 1 year 8 months???) is still a long time. For DEO`s, this still looks like 4-5 yrs if not more to Wings-time for me. That is a LONG time.


----------



## DesertFox

brian_k said:
			
		

> I was ROTP and got luck and managed to do PFT between 3rd and 4th year and I didn't have to take SLT. My wait started after graduation in April 2009 and I will be starting course in Dec 2010. Are you CEOTP or DEO?



I'm DEO, heading off to BMOQ in January. So for rotp you are added to the bft list after graduation I assume. For DEO is it after SLT or PFT that you're added to the BFT waitlist?


----------



## Zoomie

DesertFox said:
			
		

> For DEO is it after SLT or PFT that you're added to the BFT waitlist?



You will be moved on to the Phase 2 waiting list upon successful completion of Phase 1.   Don't fret too much about the whole DEO vs ROTP - most RMC grads are not attending PFT in between school years - they are being loaded upon graduation.


----------



## brian_k

> So all that bitching for no reason!



Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised by the latest schedule update. Instead the expected early to mid 2011 date I got bumped up to Nov 10. I think that was about the happiest one person can be from looking at an excel sheet.


----------



## Silentstriker01

Hey all, sorry for resurrecting such an old thread but I didn't want to start a new one. Today I went in for medical (I'm applying for pilot). For the eye test I received 20/20 in one eye left and 20/50 in my right eye. Needless to say this hit me like a ton of bricks as I have never, ever experienced problems with my vision in my life. They referred me to their optometrist who faxes the result of his exam to the medical office. I go on Tuesday. Am I disqualified from being a pilot with one eye 20/50? The physicians assistant who conducted the exam didn't know.

If I see a 20/20 eye chart, I can read it no problem with both eyes open. If the optometrist (who knows the requirements because they send all their pilots to him and they pay him) says I'm okay, will the 20/50 score in the office DSQ me? I am hoping that was just a freak result because I had 20/20 in my both eyes in a test earlier this year.

Any comments are appreciated even if their bad news, at least I'll know and I won't have to stress.


----------



## Corey Darling

Unless they have changed the rules again, you still qualify for pilot. I have worse vision than you and I was accepted. 

Cheers and good luck


----------



## Silentstriker01

Thank you, that takes a weight off my shoulders!


----------



## a.schamb

Silentstriker01 said:
			
		

> Hey all, sorry for resurrecting such an old thread but I didn't want to start a new one. Today I went in for medical (I'm applying for pilot). For the eye test I received 20/20 in one eye left and 20/50 in my right eye. Needless to say this hit me like a ton of bricks as I have never, ever experienced problems with my vision in my life. They referred me to their optometrist who faxes the result of his exam to the medical office. I go on Tuesday. Am I disqualified from being a pilot with one eye 20/50? The physicians assistant who conducted the exam didn't know.
> 
> If I see a 20/20 eye chart, I can read it no problem with both eyes open. If the optometrist (who knows the requirements because they send all their pilots to him and they pay him) says I'm okay, will the 20/50 score in the office DSQ me? I am hoping that was just a freak result because I had 20/20 in my both eyes in a test earlier this year.
> 
> Any comments are appreciated even if their bad news, at least I'll know and I won't have to stress.



Info from this thread: http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/31590.0.html

Just to expand a bit on what Corey has said, the minimum vision level for Aircrew Trades is V2, meaning: up to 6/18 in both eyes or 6/12 and 6/30.
Your 20/20 Rating in your good eye would be 6/6 (prefect), and your bad eye would be 6/15 (still good). Therefore, you meet the requirements


----------



## aesop081

a.schamb said:
			
		

> the minimum vision level for Aircrew Trades is V2,



Some aircrew trades are minimum V3........mine is a good example.


----------



## a.schamb

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Some aircrew trades are minimum V3........mine is a good example.



Hmmm... I was unaware of this. Thanks for the info!


----------



## OkanaganHeat

Just for clarification:
Officer
Pilot          V2 A1
Nav           V3 A2
AEC           V3 A4
NCM
AES Op      V3 A2
Flight Eng  V3 A2
AC Op        V3 A4

All of the occupational specialties that require A4 are V3.


----------



## snyper21

Hey guys, quick question about the pilot trade. I applied last year and was unsuccessful at ASC, so I've been working towards my PPL and am going for my flight test next week (DEO pilot applicant BTW). 6 months have also gone by so I'm close to giving it another shot. I just received a letter from the Ottawa RC stating...

"the occupations that you have requested are currently unavailable. As a result, we have no choice tbut to close your file. Despite this setback we hope that you will consider one of the options listed below..."..."you may reapply to the reg. force in March 2011, as we expect to have new opportunities available in April. If some or all of the recruitment process has already been completed, the processing of your application may be accelerated."

Are they saying they won't let me re-apply for pilot next year and to consider other options..? Or is it at this moment that they have no interest in pilot applicants? My file is very competitive as I've been told, so I don't see how they wouldn't allow me to re-apply next year...

Snyper


----------



## aesop081

snyper21 said:
			
		

> Are they saying they won't let me re-apply for pilot next year and to consider other options..?



The answer to your question was clearly indicated in the message you recieved



> currently unavailable





> you may reapply to the reg. force in March 2011, as we expect to have new opportunities available in April



It does not get any more simple than that.


----------



## MAJONES

snyper21 said:
			
		

> Or is it at this moment that they have no interest in pilot applicants? My file is very competitive as I've been told, so I don't see how they wouldn't allow me to re-apply next year...



Recruiting intake targets are set on a fiscal year basis (the fiscal year runs begining March 31st if memory serves).  What that means is that each new fiscal year the powers that be tell the recuiting group to find X many pilots.  Once recruiting group has found X number of pilots they stop processing applications for pilots _for that fiscal year._  Come March 31, recuiting group will have their new target, and they will start to accept applications as appropriate.  Keep in mind that the target for pilots may very well be zero (it has happend in the past).
Long story short, you can re-activate your file at the date stated in the letter you got.


----------



## aesop081

MAJONES said:
			
		

> (the fiscal year runs begining March 31st if memory serves).  .



Nope. A fiscal year starts April 1st.


----------



## George Wallace

......and    ENDS   31 March.


----------



## portager

Snyper, you will be able to reapply to the pilot trade next year as long as they are hiring DEO pilots. You can redo ASC as many times as you upgrade your license.

I am in a similar position. However, I have not yet done ASC because the occupation closed before I heard back from Ottawa regarding a security clearance (despite applying last March). Even so, I am hoping to be able to go to ASC before April so that if I pass I can complete my application as quickly as possible. I am doubtful that they will be sending DEO applicants to ASC before they get the numbers April 1st, although I heard from the CFRC that they hope to if space opens up (to my understanding, once the ROTP applicants have all gone through). I am not a recruiter and not positive of this so don't quote me on it. If this is true (which it very well may not be), you may have another shot at ASC before April. Otherwise, in April you can book ASC again as long as you finish your PPL and the pilot trade is open again.

Although the terminology states 'reapply' many parts of your application may not need to be re-done. For example, the aptitude test. In my case I do not need to get an extra security check done regarding my dual-citizenship (a serious relief to me because it really held things up). You will most likely have to redo your medical and interview so that they can have the most up to date information. They have not destroyed your file, they have simply shelved it. Thus the line: "If some or all of the recruitment process has already been completed, the processing of your application may be accelerated."

If it is any consolation, I was told by my career counselor that the pilot trade will likely be open again fiscal year 2011 as they hired quite a few DEO in 2010 and pilot has a high wash-out rate.


----------



## acoldcanadian

Hey guys, you're going to have to forgive me and my spelling; I just came back from the optometrist and he gave me those eye drops that make your vision blurred, and it's sort of a challenge to read other posts and what I'm writing now. I'm in grade 12 now, just finished my CFAT, Medical, and interview, as well as my blood work. I had to see the eye doc today and found out i have a microscopic scar on my left eye that sets my vision back to 20/30. my right eye however, is slightly better than 20/20. When I asked my recruiter a while back, he said they were starting to accept pilot candidates who need mild vision corrections. It also says this on forces.ca. I currently don't have a presciption and don't wear any corrective lenses and i can see fine, but i want to know how much my chances have been decreased for being accepted due to this slight vision problem. Also, this is the last thing i have to fax to my medical officer until he gives me the go-ahead for ASC, if i am eligable or not anymore. Oh, and i'm going back to the eye doc on saturday to get perhaps one contact for my left eye.

Any and all info is appreciated, and once again sorry for any spelling mistakes as i can barely make out the words i'm typing.

Thanks!


----------



## 2010newbie

Each application is unique, but I was accepted last year with V2.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=69305.0;attach=25147


----------



## Nordo

Hello everyone! First post here for me after much reading and searching. I must say this site is an excellent resource for information regarding life (and starting a life) in the CF. Before I continue, I feel the need to thank all the vets and members for taking the time and answering all the questions from us greenhorns. 

After much searching, I've found some relevant information but not exactly what I was looking for, and was hoping someone out here may have an answer.

I understand that the ASC holds the Aircrew selection trials roughly twice a year, generally before summer and in December. What I was wondering is, are these times fixed from year to year? Better yet, does anyone know or have any insight regarding when the Aircrew Selection times will be for 2011?

Calling my local recruitment centre did not provide me with any more information. I realize that many of the recruitment personnel are quite professional and are required to know quite a lot about the CF, but at the same time they cannot possibly know every finite detail of the CF. Considering this, and that I intend to become a CF pilot - who (in what capacity) should I be requesting to talk with when I call a recruitment center? (The warrant officer I spoke with also could not answer this)

Any constructive info would be greatly appreciated, thanks again!


----------



## rnkelly

Aircrew selection is scheduled on a as needed basis.  Dates change from year to year and the frequency depends on how many pilots their recruiting, when I went through they were doing serials every month it seems.  When your application gets to a certain point then a ASC date will be scheduled for you, once you pass ASC you're pretty much golden but getting to that point involves many hoops.

Ask the recruiting center if they have any pilots there, if not ask for aircew (Navs, Flight Engineers, Aesops Etc).  If they don't have anyone to talk to in person don't despair, the best resource I had during the process was here at army.ca.  Everything is here: day in the life of a Pilot, passing ASC tips, flight training, current recruiting trends.  It's not official info but usually quite accurate. 

Good luck.


----------



## Nordo

Thank you for the quick and informative response rnkelly!

I hadn't considered trying to contact other air crew members through the recruitment office. Perhaps if I find a good source, I'll be able to get inside the loop regarding ASC dates etc.

And as you say, Army.ca truly is an excellent resource!

Thanks again!


----------



## SkyHeff

At the recruiting centre in town here, there's almost always a pilot or two waiting for training that are manning the phones  :nod:



> once you pass ASC you're pretty much golden



I'm not sure what rnkelly meant by it, but that just isn't the case. I know plenty of people who have passed ASC and not received pilot offers. On my aircrew course, 9 of us passed ASC and only 5 of us received pilot offers. By no means is this a representation of the percentage of ASC people who get offers, but it shows there are still plenty of influencing factors outside of ASC that can determine whether an offer is extended.


----------



## rnkelly

My understanding is that ASC (Simulator/Medical) is the last step and they didn't send applicants until all other steps are completed successfully, has this changed from 2006? 

In theory applicants that have passed ASC and have upheld all the other requirements shall receive offers albeit not all at the same time (some may have to wait longer than others).  Once your application is deemed acceptable (I think they call it being merit listed) the main factors that affect the offer are; Pilot slots available, Entry plan, Application strength.  

Correct me if things have changed but your buddies who have passed their ASC should get offers eventually when slots open up unless another part of their application has fallen through.


----------



## 2010newbie

There is also a "Pilot Selection Board" of sorts that meets in the spring and reviews the applications. It is my understanding that even if you have successfully completed everything, you can still be rejected from the board.


----------



## MAJONES

rnkelly said:
			
		

> My understanding is that ASC (Simulator/Medical) is the last step and they didn't send applicants until all other steps are completed successfully, has this changed from 2006?



Yes.  When I was working recruiting (2008) the direction was to send all ROTP aircrew applicants to ACS, then send the file off to the ROTP selection board.  Not sure if they are still doing that, or have expanded it to DEO as well.


----------



## 2010newbie

2010newbie said:
			
		

> There is also a "Pilot Selection Board" of sorts that meets in the spring and reviews the applications. It is my understanding that even if you have successfully completed everything, you can still be rejected from the board.



For some reason I couldn't edit my post....

I might have the selection board confused with the ROTP selection board, but it was my impression from the RC that it was a separate board for pilot applicants only.


----------



## MAJONES

2010newbie said:
			
		

> I might have the selection board confused with the ROTP selection board, but it was my impression from the RC that it was a separate board for pilot applicants only.


There wasn't two years ago (granted that may have changed, but I doubt it).  DEO pilots (after they passed ACS) were selected at the recruiting centre level.


----------



## Brian.H

I have a few questions that i need some clarification on. But first i suppose i should preface those questions with some information about me. I am 21 years old and currently attend York University (enrolled in law and society). I have zero flight experience. 

I went to a recruitment center hoping to answer some of my many questions. I had asked what the procedure was to become a pilot in the Canadian forces and he told me that a degree was required to do so. This was kind of disappointing to me because i had hoped that the CF would train you from scratch to become a pilot (I understand that i would be required to stay for a set term). A degree requirement isnt enough to deter me from this career path, i was wondering what school would be best for this. The program i enroll in is important because i dont want to waste time with schooling if it isnt going to put me into a job. 

Im sorry if this isnt well written i have a great deal of thoughts running through my head at the same time, but i do know that i need clarity. What i am wondering what is the best way to get into the CF as a pilot?


----------



## SkyHeff

A degree is required to be an officer in the CF and a pilot is an officer in the CF.

Based on your post, did you misunderstand that you are required to earn a degree before becoming a pilot (which you are doing at York) or is the degree you are pursuing not acceptable for the pilot trade?

As for training pilots, the CF does do this from scratch and does not require you to obtain an aviation degree to do so.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brian.H:
Welcome to Milnet.ca - don't be shy about using the search function.

Lots of stuff already here - in fact, shortly, you'll see your post merged into a thread with all sorts of info there.

Read and learn.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## alexdynamis

Hey guys and girls, I am very interested in becoming a pilot with the Canadian air force. Joining the air force is something I have dreamed of doing since I saw my first air show when I was nine years old. I am 25 now and I'm finally prepared to do it. Tomorrow I will be visiting my local recruitment station to apply. How do I approach the recruiter? Is there a cut off age to become a pilot in the CAF? Can I continue my studies at Concordia University or do I have to transfer to RCMC?

Thanks


----------



## aesop081

alexdynamis said:
			
		

> How do I approach the recruiter?



Say "Hi".


----------



## MSEng314

Go to the recruiting website and do some research first, so you know what you will be getting into and can ask them some intelligent questions.


----------



## KingofKeys

alexdynamis said:
			
		

> Hey guys and girls, I am very interested in becoming a pilot with the Canadian air force. Joining the air force is something I have dreamed of doing since I saw my first air show when I was nine years old. I am 25 now and I'm finally prepared to do it. Tomorrow I will be visiting my local recruitment station to apply. How do I approach the recruiter? Is there a cut off age to become a pilot in the CAF? Can I continue my studies at Concordia University or do I have to transfer to RCMC?
> 
> Thanks



Ask those questions at the RC tomorrow. Likewise, heed to the advices given above.


----------



## eliminator

Check out the Forces recruiting website for starters and then do some searches on this forum if you want to get a better sense of the entry, selection and training requirements. At 25, you wont have to worry about your age for entry into the pilot trade. The biggest factor will be your medical. 

As for university, if you already have 2 or more years complete, they probably wont send you to RMC since they run a 4-year program that includes other yearly requirements beyond education alone. (bilingualism, leadership, physical fitness) You'd basically start back as a first year student, with maybe a few extra spares if they transfer your credits. Chances are they would pay for the remainder of your Concordia program as an ROTP student.

Not to discourage you or anything, but pilot is probably the most requested trade by newcomers to the forces. My non-scientific method would estimated 8-9 of every 10 applicants listing pilot as one of their top 3 entry choices, with only 1 in 10 selected, and as few as 1 in 10 of those 1 in 10 actually getting through the training. (and many times, those who are successful have previous flying experience through cadets or otherwise)

Do you have a passion for aviation in general? There are many trades, both officer and NCM, that can land you a position inside an aircraft.  

What makes you want to be a pilot? What have you done since that air show you attended at 9 years of age to bring you closer to that dream?


----------



## KingofKeys

eliminator said:
			
		

> My non-scientific method would estimated 8-9 of every 10 applicants listing pilot as one of their top 3 entry choices



 :facepalm:


----------



## abejackson

I hear Pilot is the most wanted trade in the Canadian Forces.
I was also told that the video on the website tells you the Canadian Forces will train you from scratch to become a pilot but the reality is that a lot of candidates already have flying experience. Things got competitive and it makes sense to hire someone with flying experience since it needs less resources to train that person to be a military pilot. One recruiter I spoke with told me as a joke that just about 1 in every 2 people walking into the recruiting office wants to be a pilot. Again these are just the things I heard but I wouldn't be surprised if this is very close to reality.


----------



## aesop081

abejackson said:
			
		

> Things got competitive and it makes sense to hire someone with flying experience since it needs less resources to train that person to be a military pilot.



Takes the same resources.


----------



## Strike

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Takes the same resources.



Some might argue that it takes more...of which this topic has been thoroughly discussed from all angles in a multitude of other threads.


----------



## the tickler

I have read a few posts on this website (can't remember which forum I saw it in) saying that the last round of hiring for DEO pilots was in July and they won't be hiring any more for a long time... Just wondering if anyone has information on this. I have my interview at the end of the month and it would suck if I just missed the last round.


----------



## PWN

the tickler said:
			
		

> I have read a few posts on this website (can't remember which forum I saw it in) saying that the last round of hiring for DEO pilots was in July and they won't be hiring any more for a long time... Just wondering if anyone has information on this. I have my interview at the end of the month and it would suck if I just missed the last round.



There is another selection happening next week. They'll likely max out the quota then, but even if they don't, there won't be many spots left. There's still a long road from your interview (medical, Aircrew Selection, air factor assignment, merit listing) to them looking at your name in a selection, so just keep riding the process. You might be in good shape for the next fiscal year, but who knows?

Don't fret about it too much. Was 9 years from my first application until everything fell into place for me. I'm sure you'll do better than that


----------



## the tickler

PWN said:
			
		

> There is another selection happening next week. They'll likely max out the quota then, but even if they don't, there won't be many spots left. There's still a long road from your interview (medical, Aircrew Selection, air factor assignment, merit listing) to them looking at your name in a selection, so just keep riding the process. You might be in good shape for the next fiscal year, but who knows?
> 
> Don't fret about it too much. Was 9 years from my first application until everything fell into place for me. I'm sure you'll do better than that



Ok, ya I'll just go with the flow and worry about the stuff I can actually control 8)


----------



## PWN

the tickler said:
			
		

> Ok, ya I'll just go with the flow and worry about the stuff I can actually control 8)



Sweet. You won't be worrying about very much then  ;D


----------



## Joely.Ho

Hello everyone,

My name is Joely and I turn 16 this november. I aspire to be a pilot and was wondering how you got into the air force. I am aiming at the ROTP  but I want to be prepared for being not accepted into the program. Therefore please tell me how you got into the air force and your general experience in the air force, what you did before you got into the air force (ie, university or highschool), and what you currently do. To be very honest, I want to be an airline pilot but gain the best experience and knowledge from the ROTP and serving in the RAF after. Now, I understand that this may bring criticism, and I respect it too as it may bring about honest and unfiltered opinions on what I can do to become a pilot. I appreciate all posts.

Thanks, 
Joely Ho


----------



## Gbert84

RAF? Are you from England?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Joely.Ho - You want " honest and unfiltered opinions"?

1)  In your original post ....
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/107198.0.html
.... you say you're 16, now you're saying you're 15 and a bit.  You'll have to be far more precise with information and numbers if you become a pilot.

2)  Remember this from your original post?


			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Welcome to Army.ca
> 
> Please spend some time researching older posts on the site and using the Search Function. You will find a wealth of information here, including answers to questions you haven't even formed yet.



Being able to follow suggestions/direction/instructions is a good skill to have in ANY military field.

Search and read more (asking the same thing over and over again without checking what's there or appearing to take in what's shared are not military-sought skills), post less, and ask questions that _haven't_ been answered already.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## dimsum

Joely.Ho said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> My name is Joely and I turn 16 this november. I aspire to be a pilot and was wondering how you got into the air force. I am aiming at the ROTP  but I want to be prepared for being not accepted into the program. Therefore please tell me how you got into the air force and your general experience in the air force, what you did before you got into the air force (ie, university or highschool), and what you currently do. To be very honest, I want to be an airline pilot but gain the best experience and knowledge from the ROTP and serving in the RAF after. Now, I understand that this may bring criticism, and I respect it too as it may bring about honest and unfiltered opinions on what I can do to become a pilot. I appreciate all posts.
> 
> Thanks,
> Joely Ho



I echo what milnews said about searching and reading the pile of info regarding the Pilot trade.  On another note, if commercial flying is what you're looking for, the CF may not be the best way as you're not guaranteed the multi-engine (or even fixed-wing) community.


----------



## davidc538

Hey everyone,

I've recently sent off my documents to apply for the pilot ROTP, I know that the first (and hopefully not last) step for applicants is the aircrew selection in CFB Trenton. My question is if anyone knows roughly how long I'll be waiting for this? I read somewhere that the aircrew selection process only occurs in July and November, is this true? I'm not sure how the RCAF is managing this at the moment.

Also if anyone has any tips(apart from cross checking instruments and studying like crazy, I already understand the extreme importance of these) they would be much appreciated as I have no flying experience but I've always wanted to do this.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## 2010newbie

Aircrew Selection is not the first step. CFAT, general medical, and interview are the first few steps. There is a lot of info already on here re ASC, try searching and you'll find them. Good luck.


----------



## The Bread Guy

davidc538 said:
			
		

> .... Also if anyone has any tips(apart from cross checking instruments and studying like crazy, I already understand the extreme importance of these) they would be much appreciated as I have no flying experience but I've always wanted to do this ....


Strangely enough, if you go to the "Aircrew Trades" page here, take a look at the thread that's about four down from yours....
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/70257.0.html

Welcome to Milnet.ca - search can be your friend here.


----------



## davidc538

That post is actually really informative, judging by the site ( http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/8w-8e/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=8252 ), there simulators seem very new. Does anyone know what kind of plane there instrumentation matches?


----------



## aesop081

davidc538 said:
			
		

> there simulators seem very new.



They are not.


----------



## davidc538

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They are not.



Ha! no? do you know what kind of plane there comparable to instrumentation wise?


----------



## Loachman

None that you are likely to encounter in real life.


----------



## davidc538

Loachman said:
			
		

> None that you are likely to encounter in real life.



shit lol, do they send pics of the instruments before you go to trenton?


----------



## aesop081

davidc538 said:
			
		

> Ha! no?



Did my reply give you the impression that I was being funny and inaccurate ?



			
				davidc538 said:
			
		

> crap lol, do they send pics of the instruments before you go to trenton?



Your study guide prior to going will contain what you need to know.


----------



## davidc538

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Did my reply give you the impression that I was being funny and inaccurate ?



a little, roughly how old are the current simulators?



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Your study guide prior to going will contain what you need to know.



You know roughly how long they typically take to get back to you?


----------



## shogun506

You really need to start searching and stop posting. A) aircrew selection does not only happen in those months, it happens almost every week. B) you will not be doing aircrew selection any time soon, it will probably be months from now, and only if everything else checks out with your CFAT, medical, interview, etc. When you ARE ready for aircrew, there are lots and lots of threads that will prepare you when you search.


----------



## aesop081

davidc538 said:
			
		

> roughly how old are the current simulators?



Introduced in Feb 1997.



> You know roughly how long they typically take to get back to you?



They take as long as they need. Sit, wait, relax.


----------



## davidc538

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Introduced in Feb 1997.



so these machines are 15 years old?

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/vital/8w-8e/nr-sp/images/2009/I2009-857D-01.jpg



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They take as long as they need. Sit, wait, relax.



ugh


----------



## aesop081

davidc538 said:
			
		

> so these machines are 15 years old?



It is September 2012. CAPSS was introduced in February 1997. You did the math. What's in doubt ?

Yes, the machines in your picture. I know what CAPSS is, I have done aircrew selection.


----------



## davidc538

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It is September 2012. CAPSS was introduced in February 1997. You did the math. What's in doubt ?



I can subtract but the sims in the picture don't look like they could be 15 years old


----------



## GAP

Lord love a duck....STOP ALREADY!!  :


----------



## aesop081

davidc538 said:
			
		

> I can subtract but the sims in the picture don't look like they could be 15 years old



You're just f*****g with me aren't you ?

You ask questions and don't believe the answer no matter what ?


----------



## MAJONES

Running on the assumption that they haven't changed the sims since I was there (2000), the instrumentation is closest to that of a generic light aircraft, like a Cessna.


----------



## dimsum

davidc538 said:
			
		

> I can subtract but the sims in the picture don't look like they could be 15 years old



What does the age of the simulators (that really only test your ability to learn, not how you actually fly airplanes) have any bearing on the selection process?  Nothing to get worked up over.


----------



## shogun506

A troll perhaps?


----------



## medicineman

Dude, you haven't even done your aptitude or preliminary medical testing yet...I'd worry about getting by that first, since that's where most folks "crash and burn".

MM


----------



## davidc538

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You're just f*****g with me aren't you ?
> 
> You ask questions and don't believe the answer no matter what ?



no no I believe you I just could sworn those machines were fairly new. Now that I notice the old school CRT monitors sticking out the windows I know better.



			
				medicineman said:
			
		

> Dude, you haven't even done your aptitude or preliminary medical testing yet...I'd worry about getting by that first, since that's where most folks "crash and burn".
> 
> MM



Thanks for the advice, I've already gone through this http://cdn.forces.ca/_PDF2010/preparing_for_aptitude_test_en.pdf and found it to be very easy. Will the real aptitude test be longer? and do they let you use a calculator?

Also is there anything one can do to prepare for a medical?


----------



## PMedMoe

davidc538 said:
			
		

> Also is there anything one can do to prepare for a medical?



Have a pulse?


----------



## PuckChaser

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Have a pulse?



Taking a shower beforehand would probably help too.  ;D


----------



## PMedMoe

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Taking a shower beforehand would probably help too.  ;D



Definitely.   :nod:


----------



## Loachman

davidc538 said:
			
		

> no no I believe you I just could sworn those machines were fairly new.



Don't be fooled by the snazzy paint job.

They make failed candidates sand them down by hand and repaint them before they are allowed to leave.


----------



## Sf2

Could be worse, you could be flying this







Turn to the lighthouse!  Turn to the boat!!


----------



## Zoomie

"turn to the battleship"

Thanks for the pic SF2...


----------



## trampbike

davidc538 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the advice, I've already gone through this http://cdn.forces.ca/_PDF2010/preparing_for_aptitude_test_en.pdf and found it to be very easy. Will the real aptitude test be longer? and do they let you use a calculator?



The real aptitude test is exactly the same as the practice one you just did, the only difference is that every question is written in Braille and you have to answer in Cantonese. 
Don't sweat it, there really isn't much to it.

Seriously, do a little bit of research. Everything you asked on this thread has been answered several times in other threads. The search function might help you.


----------



## davidc538

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Taking a shower beforehand would probably help too.  ;D



hahahaha!


----------



## pthebeau

trampbike said:
			
		

> Seriously, do a little bit of research. Everything you asked on this thread has been answered several times in other threads. The search function might help you.



Might I add,
Ditching the old "spoon-fed" high school "ask and you shall receive" technique may be of use to you in the future.  If it weren't for digging around, I would have lacked some fairly important knowledge and skills going into my interview and CAPSS. This would have ultimately made me less competitive for selection in a very competitive trade.


----------



## nic32

davidc538 said:
			
		

> no no I believe you I just could sworn those machines were fairly new. Now that I notice the old school CRT monitors sticking out the windows I know



Now they have LCD monitors but it change nothing because you don't need it until the final exercice and believe me my old school '88 monitor can handle it haha (Those who got there will understand me lol)


----------



## 742_guy

nic32 said:
			
		

> Now they have LCD monitors but it change nothing because you don't need it until the final exercice and believe me my old school '88 monitor can handle it haha (Those who got there will understand me lol)



Man, yeah I was half expecting oldschool Pong to pop up as the "Extra challenge" level... haha


----------



## shogun506

So recently most of us on the merit list were told that DEO pilot positions are finished for the year. I'm curious as to whether people are still being processed since it will mean more candidates (and therefore more competition) when/if spots open up in April. Are there any DEO pilot dandidates that are still moving forward with their processing at the moment? If so, what stage are you at?


----------



## OYR_Pilot

I am currently waiting for my medical test results and will be able to tell you next week if I can still move foward in the process this year.


----------



## dr.phil

I'm still awaiting my medical results and will be having my interview done within the next few weeks. Although, I'm also speaking as an internal component transfer to Pilot and not off the street.


----------



## davidc538

I'm an ROTP applicant for pilot at the moment. Doesn't seem to be moving very quickly.


----------



## Mab163

DEO candidate too! I just transmit my medical results to the Recruiting Center. I've already passed the interview. I should proceed to ASC soon.

Last edit : Grammar corrections.


----------



## shogun506

Mab post here or PM me when you start your ASC or if they stop processing you please.


----------



## OYR_Pilot

Hi,

I just came back from my recruiting center to give them my medical results. My file manager told me they would send my medical and vision results to Ottawa and then should call me back soon to set an appointment for my interview.

I asked about the pilot's trade being closed recently, the answer I received is that since I am already in the recruiting process, I will continue every steps until I am place on the merit list or I fail at one point of the process. 

Trade is only closed for new applications.


----------



## shogun506

Thanks OYR. If anything changes please let me know. I only ask because another person I know said that their recruiting centre told them anyone who has not been interviewed yet would be cut off. Good to hear experiences from a variety of people.


----------



## davidc538

OYR_Pilot said:
			
		

> Trade is only closed for new applicantions.



http://www.forces.ca/en/jobexplorer/browsejobs-70 according to this it's open. Maybe they just didn't know that off the top of there head?


----------



## MMSS

Unfortunately, the website is not updated in real time, and sometimes can be out of date as to what trades are open and closed.


----------



## estoguy

I'm in the middle of the process.  I've done CFAT, interview and medical. Right now held up on medical, due to my sleep apnea.  I've been losing weight and having tonsils out at some point.  Waiting for a surgery date.  After that, new sleep study to see if I have beaten down the apnea. If not, then that's the end of the line for me. Hoping not!


----------



## CF_Pilot

Joely.Ho said:
			
		

> To be very honest, I want to be an airline pilot but ...
> 
> Thanks,
> Joely Ho



I'll be honest right back. I wouldn't want you on my squadron.


----------



## Jarnhamar

CF_Pilot said:
			
		

> I'll be honest right back. I wouldn't want you on my squadron.



Because he is a 16 year old kid who doesnt know anything about the military or because he wants to spend time in the airforce and become an airliner pilot after (since CF pilots NEVER retire and work for airlines afterwards)


----------



## mariomike

From  someone who works / worked in Recruiting:

"MY theory (and it's just that, I have no special info or insight) is that some people who want to become pilots, but may not be able to afford it after having completed their degrees, choose to attempt to join the CF in order to get the training. Combine that with the cut-backs in the civilian airlines and the number of EX-CF airline pilots and it becomes an attractive way of beefing up a resume."

Reply #600.


----------



## shogun506

So has anyone moved on to the next stage yet?


----------



## pa471856

I just got a call from my file manager asking which dates would work best for me for ASC.


----------



## peak_to_prairie

I just returned today, successfully, from ASC. I've been informed by my file manager that as soon as they've received the correct documents from the CFASC and my Air Factor is input into the system by the DRDC I'll be merit listed for pilot.

The successful candidates were also informed by the staff at the CFASC that a selection committee will be sitting around Nov. 15. I'm being careful not to be too excited just in case things change, but it probably merits some optimism.

Since I mentioned our ASC, I'll post a couple details from our week here; I'll also post them on the appropriate ASC forum too, with a bit more info. ASC was the usual massacre. 3 out of 7 made it through CAPSS, and only two of those passed the AEC exam as well, myself and one other. All 3 of us made it through the measuring and medical testing at the DRDC.

I left ASC without any more insight into CAPSS than I had before I went. They are pretty tight lipped about it. Cross-check, be very gentle with the controls, follow instructions, and manage your stress.

Good luck all!


----------



## OYR_Pilot

peak_to_prairie said:
			
		

> I just returned today, successfully, from ASC. I've been informed by my file manager that as soon as they've received the correct documents from the CFASC and my Air Factor is input into the system by the DRDC I'll be merit listed for pilot.
> 
> The successful candidates were also informed by the staff at the CFASC that a selection committee will be sitting around Nov. 15. I'm being careful not to be too excited just in case things change, but it probably merits some optimism.
> 
> Since I mentioned our ASC, I'll post a couple details from our week here; I'll also post them on the appropriate ASC forum too, with a bit more info. ASC was the usual massacre. 3 out of 7 made it through CAPSS, and only two of those passed the AEC exam as well, myself and one other. All 3 of us made it through the measuring and medical testing at the DRDC.
> 
> I left ASC without any more insight into CAPSS than I had before I went. They are pretty tight lipped about it. Cross-check, be very gentle with the controls, follow instructions, and manage your stress.
> 
> Good luck all!



The infos you posted on the ASC forum are very useful, thank you!

Congratulation and good luck for the selection of the next pilots! I hope I will be attending the ASC in the next weeks too!


----------



## crosswind

DEO candidate here, I completed ASC successfully a month ago, still no word yet from DRDC so it does take quite a bit of time (I was verbally told by the flight surgeon that everything in my medical file was excellent and that he signed off on it, but have not officially received air factor).


----------



## shogun506

peak_to_prairie said:
			
		

> I just returned today, successfully, from ASC. I've been informed by my file manager that as soon as they've received the correct documents from the CFASC and my Air Factor is input into the system by the DRDC I'll be merit listed for pilot.
> 
> The successful candidates were also informed by the staff at the CFASC that a selection committee will be sitting around Nov. 15. I'm being careful not to be too excited just in case things change, but it probably merits some optimism.
> 
> Since I mentioned our ASC, I'll post a couple details from our week here; I'll also post them on the appropriate ASC forum too, with a bit more info. ASC was the usual massacre. 3 out of 7 made it through CAPSS, and only two of those passed the AEC exam as well, myself and one other. All 3 of us made it through the measuring and medical testing at the DRDC.
> 
> I left ASC without any more insight into CAPSS than I had before I went. They are pretty tight lipped about it. Cross-check, be very gentle with the controls, follow instructions, and manage your stress.
> 
> Good luck all!



While the skeptic in me says there are no more selections this year and I should take this with a grain of salt - the hopeful side in me says I love you. Good luck with getting your air factor but don't be disappointed if it takes some time and doesn't come in before the 15th, it took most of the people on my ASC at least a month to get their air factor. With me it was 2 months because Ottawa wanted one of the tests double-checked.


----------



## peak_to_prairie

Reaper-1 said:
			
		

> While the skeptic in me says there are no more selections this year and I should take this with a grain of salt - the hopeful side in me says I love you. Good luck with getting your air factor but don't be disappointed if it takes some time and doesn't come in before the 15th, it took most of the people on my ASC at least a month to get their air factor. With me it was 2 months because Ottawa wanted one of the tests double-checked.



Yah, I've heard about the delay getting the Air Factor before, I'll keep my optimism in check. The doctor did tell me that things were moving quickly now and it was possible I could stand for Nov. 15. She said the biggest delays would come from sending my med file back to my CFRC, and if my CFRC had access to their computer system (which she didn't know) they'd know sooner.

Thanks for the love! I'm pretty sure the selection part is true (at least as of when I left ASC). The Cpt. received an email that day about Nov. 15, and came and told us.

I read back in October that people were receiving "conditional" offers before getting their Air Factor. Are they still doing that?


----------



## shogun506

Has anyone else confirmed this Nov.15th date with a recruiter? I tried to call today but couldn't get in contact. Sent an email and got from my Cpt. that he doesn't have a date for the next selection


----------



## Loachman

Reaper-1 said:
			
		

> Cpt.



"Capt".


----------



## Gunshark

Any recent news on what's happening with pilot positions this year and what is projected for the next?

I was at CFRC Toronto a couple of days ago and my most recent understanding is that pilot position openings for this fiscal year are either gone or are extremely slim. If this information is accurate, it's not surprising, given the recent wave of offers. ("Wave" might be an overstatement, but at least two people on this forum received their offers around same time, which makes me think there might have been many more than just the two.)

The aircrew selection sessions are still running, however. Perhaps the Force is creating a merit list for the next wave of openings. I was told a spot has been requested for me for one of this December's aircrew selections and I was told I'll be contacted with the exact date. It might end up being January. I don't have expectations. I am just waiting.

Anyone else here in the same spot?


----------



## Qyrang121

I know of someone who was offered a position starting 5 Jan this week.  Maybe there are still a few spots left.


----------



## OYR_Pilot

Gunshark said:
			
		

> The aircrew selection sessions are still running, however. Perhaps the Force is creating a merit list for the next wave of openings. I was told a spot has been requested for me for one of this December's aircrew selections and I was told I'll be contacted with the exact date. It might end up being January. I don't have expectations. I am just waiting.
> 
> Anyone else here in the same spot?



I am exactly in the same spot. I am waiting for a confirmation date between December 10th or January 7th / 14th for Aircrew Selection. Personally, I would prefer to attend ACS on December and spend some quality time during Christmas holidays if everything went well!


----------



## Mab163

OYR_Pilot said:
			
		

> I am exactly in the same spot. I am waiting for a confirmation date between December 10th or January 7th / 14th for Aircrew Selection. Personally, I would prefer to attend ACS on December and spend some quality time during Christmas holidays if everything went well!



The same here. I'm waiting to go back to ASC. Good luck to all and keep us informed of your progress!


----------



## Gunshark

> I am exactly in the same spot. I am waiting for a confirmation date between December 10th or January 7th / 14th for Aircrew Selection. Personally, I would prefer to attend ACS on December and spend some quality time during Christmas holidays if everything went well!





> The same here. I'm waiting to go back to ASC. Good luck to all and keep us informed of your progress!



Alright let's keep each other informed. Good luck everyone.


----------



## Gunshark

Any news, anyone? Called the CFRC today looking for a quick update but couldn't get through to speak to my man. Left him a voicemail.


----------



## pa471856

I just finished up at ASC and DRDC in November. DEO candidate here and as far as I know they are still processing pilot's and running selection courses. I believe there was a group this week Dec 3-7. 

I have heard from some that there are still a few select DEO positions available this year (7 was the number I heard from someone who talked to their file manager), but when I went to my recruiting center today they said they were not aware and to the best of their knowledge that DEO was closed for the year. Anyone else heard anything at all?

I heard that they hired about 80 DEO pilots this year and I am assuming that the number next year would probably be fairly similar since they apparently need to train roughly 150+ pilots a year to keep up with attrition (according to a pilot at ASC). I was wondering if anyone would have any idea as to how many DEO pilots are already merit listed? Or what specifically attributes to your spot on the merit list? It seems like a lot of the candidates that were successful at ASC this year were given offers. Any insight would be helpful!


----------



## shogun506

pa471856 said:
			
		

> I just finished up at ASC and DRDC in November. DEO candidate here and as far as I know they are still processing pilot's and running selection courses. I believe there was a group this week Dec 3-7.
> 
> I have heard from some that there are still a few select DEO positions available this year (7 was the number I heard from someone who talked to their file manager), but when I went to my recruiting center today they said they were not aware and to the best of their knowledge that DEO was closed for the year. Anyone else heard anything at all?
> 
> I heard that they hired about 80 DEO pilots this year and I am assuming that the number next year would probably be fairly similar since they apparently need to train roughly 150+ pilots a year to keep up with attrition (according to a pilot at ASC). I was wondering if anyone would have any idea as to how many DEO pilots are already merit listed? Or what specifically attributes to your spot on the merit list? It seems like a lot of the candidates that were successful at ASC this year were given offers. Any insight would be helpful!



So the info I'm giving you is info I've gotten from my recruiters and from various people in the system here and there, just so you know I don't have the official answers. In terms of the 80 number, that was what they originally planned to take under DEO pilot but it may not be the official number because recruiting centers have been getting information on last minute changes for the past couple months. For example in October, the selection that was supposed to occur was supposed to be the last. It got changed last minute and became a selection for foreign qualified pilots (other militaries) and then selection was supposed to be done for the year. Nov.15 had another selection that came down with very short notice so it's really impossible to say what the actual number this year was. In terms of what your merit list spot is made up of, I have heard 2 answers from reputable sources:

1) My interviewing captain said the merit list position was made up of your aptitude test score, your GPA, and your interview score which was calculated and turned into a military potential score, which determines your spot on the merit list.
2) Captain Larose at the ASC who said that the scores from the aptitude test you do at the ASC are also included and help determine your MP score for the merit list.

In terms of positions still open for this year, it's impossible to say because things keep changing all the time. One day I'll call and hear there are no spots, a week later they'll say there's a selection. Hold fast hope I guess.


----------



## Gunshark

Yeah, the most sure thing about position openings seems to be that nothing is for sure! Things can change any time. Last I heard at CFRC Toronto was that pilot positions were gone for this year, not sure if that was for DEO or in general. Heard this just about a week ago. I'll try to get an update soon.


----------



## pa471856

Thanks Reaper and Gunshark. That's about the same as I was told as well. I guess I will just have to learn to hold my breath a little longer! Best of luck to everyone.


----------



## Gunshark

The CFRC Toronto contacted me this morning. I've been scheduled for Jan 14 aircrew selection. Looks like the CFRC Det. Toronto might be scheduling folks around this time. Hopefully most of you got a date as well or are about to get one. Any updates?


----------



## Bioman

Hi, I'm new to the forums, and recently I've looked into becoming a pilot. I think it's something I really want to do with my life. However, I am a little confused on where to start. I have a couple of questions I hope someone here can answer. First of all, when would I apply? I'm currently half way through Grade 12, so should I wait until June when I graduate? Secondly, What is the best entry plan, ROTP, DEO, or CEOPT. The latter looks the most appealing, since it's the quickest way to get flying, but after looking through some forums some say it's not the most well designed plan. Lastly, What kind of degree would be most desirable when becoming a pilot? Or does it matter? I want to take computer science, but it doesn't seem relevant to the pilot occupation. Sorry for the long post, I really appreciate it if you read all of it.


----------



## dr.phil

Bioman said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm new to the forums, and recently I've looked into becoming a pilot. I think it's something I really want to do with my life. However, I am a little confused on where to start. I have a couple of questions I hope someone here can answer. First of all, when would I apply? I'm currently half way through Grade 12, so should I wait until June when I graduate? Secondly, What is the best entry plan, ROTP, DEO, or CEOPT. The latter looks the most appealing, since it's the quickest way to get flying, but after looking through some forums some say it's not the most well designed plan. Lastly, What kind of degree would be most desirable when becoming a pilot? Or does it matter? I want to take computer science, but it doesn't seem relevant to the pilot occupation. Sorry for the long post, I really appreciate it if you read all of it.



1. Apply whenever you feel comfortable applying. If you think you're competitive enough for CEOTP or ROTP, give it a shot. You will never know if you don't try that. You may be able to get in and study at RMC or through another civilian university, or even the Seneca Flight program. I don't know how the timing works if you wanted to make it in for September 2013... it may be too late for that - I think? Even if you don't get in now, you can pursue a degree of some sort if you plan to apply as an ROTP or DEO candidate in the future.

2. I can't speak for anyone that has gone through the Seneca Flight Program, but if you want to get flying quickly, it sounds like the most viable option.

3. Any degree is acceptable if you're applying for a pilot. What is more important is the dedication you put into getting your degree (e.g. Marks). You basically want to show them you can learn and succeed. I've met pilots who have engineering degrees, but I've also met pilots who have degrees in History and Music. Whatever you pursue, just do it well. 


[quote author=Gunshark]The CFRC Toronto contacted me this morning. I've been scheduled for Jan 14 aircrew selection. Looks like the CFRC Det. Toronto might be scheduling folks around this time. Hopefully most of you got a date as well or are about to get one. Any updates?[/quote]

ASC has been scheduling people for January. They're also running one on 7 Jan 2013. Good luck!


----------



## shogun506

From what I understand of the CEOTP it's only used when the other 2, ROTP and DEO, are not bringing in enough candidates, so I wouldn't bank on that one. You should try and apply for ROTP and if you don't get in, do the degree you want to do and apply for DEO when you finish.


----------



## RobOfstie

Reaper-1 said:
			
		

> From what I understand of the CEOTP it's only used when the other 2, ROTP and DEO, are not bringing in enough candidates, so I wouldn't bank on that one. You should try and apply for ROTP and if you don't get in, do the degree you want to do and apply for DEO when you finish.




Historically, yes this has been the case.   However, there is now a new CEOTP-AEADS (Air Environmental Affiliated Degree) Program that rolled out this year.  It is a partnership between the RCAF and Seneca College.  Visit a recruiting center or check the Forces.ca website for more information.  There is also a forum running over in Aircrew Trades discussing this new entry plan.

See the below links for more information:  

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/15w-15e/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=12931

http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/threads/106261.0.html

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## trampbike

Bioman said:
			
		

> What kind of degree would be most desirable when becoming a pilot? Or does it matter? I want to take computer science, but it doesn't seem relevant to the pilot occupation.



If you think you would enjoy computer science, then take computer science. 
I chose a degree that I thought would be relevant to the pilot occupation (atmospheric physics, AKA meteorology) and I hated almost every hour I spent in class. Turns out it's not that relevant, and I would have been much better off had I chosen something I really like (psychology, economics, philosphy or politics).

Good luck!


----------



## Gunshark

dr.phil said:
			
		

> ASC has been scheduling people for January. They're also running one on 7 Jan 2013. Good luck!



I should correct my last statement. I think the CFRC nominates candidates for Aircrew Selection, but it's the Selection Center in Trenton that actually confirms the dates. (I think.) In any case, yes, there are several sessions running, including those beginning on Jan 7 and Jan 14. Thank you for the kind wishes. Cheers.


----------



## MMSS

I have a bachelor's in Computer Science. PM me if you have any questions.


----------



## Good2Golf

Bioman said:
			
		

> ...Lastly, What kind of degree would be most desirable when becoming a pilot? Or does it matter? I want to take computer science, but it doesn't seem relevant to the pilot occupation. Sorry for the long post, I really appreciate it if you read all of it.



My bachelor's is Physics and Computer Science and it's done me well for a quarter century of flying.  You'll find the logical flow that is fundamental to software design is quite applicable to flight operations...particularly modern AMS (avionics management systems) in many of the RCAF's fleets.

That said, the best answer is whatever you enjoy most...I've seen pilots with degrees ranging from Engineering Physics to History.  As well, many excellent pilots who only had a high school diploma (bot those are getting few and far between).

Regards
G2G


----------



## DAA

Reaper-1 said:
			
		

> From what I understand of the CEOTP it's only used when the other 2, ROTP and DEO, are not bringing in enough candidates, so I wouldn't bank on that one. You should try and apply for ROTP and if you don't get in, do the degree you want to do and apply for DEO when you finish.



CEOTP, ROTP and DEO are all individual entry programs and "each" are assigned positions.  So your best to apply for which ever program applies to you or best fits and or interests you.


----------



## Bioman

Thank you for all the replies. I've decided that my best bet is to take computer science at a normal university, then in four years time, if I still want to be a pilot, I can enter through the DEO program. Right now, I'm not near fit enough to go through basic training, and my application kind of... sucks. No extra curricular activities, no sports... It's really quite bare. I figure I can make this up during my university years.


----------



## shogun506

Looks like there might be good news for us pilot hopefuls - I was looking at forces.ca today and noticed they had pilot as the "featured job" both under that tab and on the front page. Maybe recruiting will be good in the coming FY. Also, it looks like they updated their jobs list with new in demand jobs and have a section that says "jobs currently available in the following occupations" but still haven't put the "accepting applications" checkmark beside anything. Wierd.


----------



## Gunshark

Reaper-1 said:
			
		

> Looks like there might be good news for us pilot hopefuls - I was looking at forces.ca today and noticed they had pilot as the "featured job" both under that tab and on the front page. Maybe recruiting will be good in the coming FY. Also, it looks like they updated their jobs list with new in demand jobs and have a section that says "jobs currently available in the following occupations" but still haven't put the "accepting applications" checkmark beside anything. Wierd.



Yup, I've seen that they updated the "in demand" jobs. That's a fairly recent addition since I remember the last "in demand" list was unchanged for quite a long time. Notice though that Pilot doesn't have that red star next to it. And probably never will, considering how there never seems to be a shortage of interested and eligible folks for this trade. Pretty cool that Pilot is under the "Featured Job" tab - is that a new tab on the website? Note that Pilot has been on the front page for many months now, always the first out of the four pictures too. And they would update the image every 1-2 weeks, or maybe they have it programmed to change on its own. I'm not sure if this has any meaning for the Pilot profession in particular, or if it just looks nice for a front page. I probably wouldn't think too much into it, but of course it's a great idea to remain hopeful!

On a different note, I'm headed to ASC on Jan 13 for the Jan 14-18 Aircrew Selection. Anyone here going that week? I am studying the booklet, but also want to book some time on a sim and/or Cessna. Think it will be worth it? I've seen many opinions on that here, so I guess you don't really have to answer. Just wondering if there are any fresh takes on that. My priority is The Booklet and some MS Flight Simulator X time.

Good luck everyone, and Happy New Year!


----------



## OYR_Pilot

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Yup, I've seen that they updated the "in demand" jobs. That's a fairly recent addition since I remember the last "in demand" list was unchanged for quite a long time. Notice though that Pilot doesn't have that red star next to it. And probably never will, considering how there never seems to be a shortage of interested and eligible folks for this trade. Pretty cool that Pilot is under the "Featured Job" tab - is that a new tab on the website? Note that Pilot has been on the front page for many months now, always the first out of the four pictures too. And they would update the image every 1-2 weeks, or maybe they have it programmed to change on its own. I'm not sure if this has any meaning for the Pilot profession in particular, or if it just looks nice for a front page. I probably wouldn't think too much into it, but of course it's a great idea to remain hopeful!
> 
> On a different note, I'm headed to ASC on Jan 13 for the Jan 14-18 Aircrew Selection. Anyone here going that week? I am studying the booklet, but also want to book some time on a sim and/or Cessna. Think it will be worth it? I've seen many opinions on that here, so I guess you don't really have to answer. Just wondering if there are any fresh takes on that. My priority is The Booklet and some MS Flight Simulator X time.
> 
> Good luck everyone, and Happy New Year!



I am going to ASC on Sunday. I have read the booklet a few times and done a lot of practice with a joystick on Flight Simulator to get use to do the crosscheck on the instruments.

I went for a 2 hours on a sim with an instructor today but it wasn't working properly, so tomorrow I've book another session with another flying school. I will post here again during next week to let you know it worth it!


----------



## shogun506

When I did my ASC I was going to do some sim time before hand but I wasn't able to, and so instead just did some microsoft flight simulator runs (about an hour/day for the week before) with my very unsophisticated playstation controller. I dunno how your learning styles are but I found that to help tremendously. If you can make it to a sim you should probably do it but if not, I think it's almost essential to do some microsoft flight sim practice. Read through the book but don't stress over it as the book material will be well-explained before each sim session. Please update us here if the ASC officers provide any info on upcoming selections.


----------



## Gunshark

Thanks guys. Best of luck to you!


----------



## Gunshark

If I may shamelessly advertise my post in another section of this forum... >
http://Forums.Milnet.ca/forums/threads/108851.0.html

In an attempt to dig deeper into the life of a CF pilot, I posted several questions that have to do with the aspects of pilot's life that are not related to things like training and flying missions. But more to things like personal life and perhaps the bigger picture.

I am advertising the link here because I saw that a lot of currently serving pilots have posted in this topic. So I'm just trying to grab their attention!  Thanks a lot guys, much appreciated.


----------



## Gunshark

So I've finally finished reading this entire thread - phew! It took so long, some things are a blur. Quick silly question - what exactly is OJT and what does it stand for? From the context, it seems to be a ground tour while waiting for PFT or BFT. Please elaborate if you could. Thank you.


----------



## shogun506

OJT is "on the job training" aka administrative work or some other type of busy work that you don't need special training to do and do while you wait for your courses to start.


----------



## SkyHeff

Are there OJE options for pilots at Petawawa? I'd love to get some helo squadron experience this summer before heading to MJ, while attempting to stay within the geographic region of SW Ontario that my wife will be in (getting sent on a restricted posting). Didn't realize how tough picking 3 choices would be, lol.


----------



## Sf2

Petawawa is in Eastern Ontario....not exactly SW 

Perhaps Borden or Trenton might be a better option.


----------



## Gunshark

Ok, so I'll share some info I heard recently from someone associated with recruiting. Don't quote me on this, this is just what I've been told, and a big Thank You to the person who provided the info.

There are around 70 (plus, minus...) DEO pilots positions projected for the next CF fiscal year. The CF fiscal years starts on Apr 1. A Selection Board will meet on Feb 27 to pick pilots for the next fiscal year, and anywhere from days to weeks later, the job offers should start flowing in. Typically about a week or so later.

I have no info with regards to ROTP, this is just for DEO. I also do not know when the next selection after Feb 27 might be.

If anyone has furhter info, please feel free to contribute. Cheers.


----------



## htam_har

Hi I'm 18, holding with an 80 average in grade 11 and ive just applied for the reserves in the combat engineer regiment (33rd). My training should start in the upcoming summer.

I'm really looking into a career as a pilot (preferably jet) and I was wondering if I should enter RMC and whether or not being in the reserves has any positive or negative influences on getting into the pilot trade. What options should I be looking at?

I understand there are a lot of threads already on the So you wanna be a pilot subject, but i'd like to find some more case-specific info

Cheers


----------



## krimynal

if you had took the time to read those other topics , you would have see that MANY of them are exactly like you ......


----------



## htam_har

Sorry ?  from what I've read there aren't any of them who are in high school, enrolled into the reserves. Most are contemplating whether or not they should join the reserves and apply for a trade transfer, which is quite different from my situation


----------



## PMedMoe

There are _several_ threads on people in high school considering joining the Reserves and contemplating going Reg, ROTP or whatever.  Maybe they don't want to be a pilot, but still are still in a situation quite similar to yours.

Try looking at the ROTP and Res/Reg threads.  Just my  :2c:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

;D


----------



## htam_har

Thanks for giving me an actual direction to look in, much appreciated.


----------



## Gunshark

Question:

It seems that the discussion focus is mostly on the flying, but what are the Pilot's officer/leadership duties?

I understand that it's not quite comparable to an Army officer who may have command of, say, 40 people? So then, where do the Pilot's leadership duties lie? I would assume Pilots are leaders of their on-board crew and possibly some ground personnel. Is that correct?

Sorry if this is not the brighest question. Pilot officer role has just always been a little unclear to me and I want to clear it up. Thanks.


----------



## dimsum

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Question:
> 
> It seems that the discussion focus is mostly on the flying, but what are the Pilot's officer/leadership duties?
> 
> I understand that it's not quite comparable to an Army officer who may have command of, say, 40 people? So then, where do the Pilot's leadership duties lie? I would assume Pilots are leaders of their on-board crew and possibly some ground personnel. Is that correct?
> 
> Sorry if this is not the brighest question. Pilot officer role has just always been a little unclear to me and I want to clear it up. Thanks.



From what I've seen, it will depend on what community you're talking about.  Pilots will become Aircraft Commanders and possibly Crew Commanders.  I say "possibly" because depending on qualifications, an ACSO may be CC or Mission Commander while a Pilot is AC; this happens often in Aurora and Sea King communities.  As Pilots rise up the ranks, they'll be flight commanders, etc. and so have admin responsibilities as well.

So, in general, a junior Pilot won't have much in the way of leadership as what is taught in Basic, and will have little to no interaction with the ground crew depending on community (I'd say Sea Kings, Tac Hel may be different as they are at sea/in the field.)  The bulk of the "leadership" stuff will come as AC, CC and Flt Cdr, etc. later on.


----------



## Loachman

Your PER score will depend upon your abilities as Squadron Cookie O and second language skill.


----------



## Gunshark

Alright thanks guys.

Is it true in the military, as in civil aviation, that the pilot is the one ultimately responsible for the aircraft and crew safety? I am assuming those would lie under Aircraft Commander's responsiblities.


----------



## dimsum

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Alright thanks guys.
> 
> Is it true in the military, as in civil aviation, that the pilot is the one ultimately responsible for the aircraft and crew safety? I am assuming those would lie under Aircraft Commander's responsiblities.



Yes.


----------



## skyhigh10

htam_har said:
			
		

> Hi I'm 18, holding with an 80 average in grade 11 and ive just applied for the reserves in the combat engineer regiment (33rd). My training should start in the upcoming summer.
> 
> I'm really looking into a career as a pilot *(preferably jet) *and I was wondering if I should enter RMC and whether or not being in the reserves has any positive or negative influences on getting into the pilot trade. What options should I be looking at?
> 
> I understand there are a lot of threads already on the So you wanna be a pilot subject, but i'd like to find some more case-specific info
> 
> Cheers




Your reading starts now.


----------



## DeBuNkEd

Hello Army.ca,

 I think before I get to questions I should give A little background about myself. Ever since I can remember I have wanted to be a pilot in some form; I didn't care if it was through the armed forces or civilian, I just wanted to be in the air. The're has always been something that has been keeping my eyes to the sky. Up until three years ago everything was going perfect. My first year of high school went great; the summer was upon me and I was content, then i was hit with a blow that surprisingly had a profound effect on my life, the divorce of my parents. I never thought it would be such a burden but after months of constant fighting between my parents and not having a place to really live; fatigue started to poke its head. The first thing that fell was my schooling, I was a honor student in my first year to be a drop out in the next year, with family and school falling apart this lead me into a world of depression for the rest of what was going to be my grade 11 year. It was the summer of that failed year where I had a realization, "I could not be a pilot anymore". This thought stayed in my head for the remainder of that summer until the point where I knew what I had to do, Finish school. So, I went back for that year and did Fantastic, Was once again the top of my classes and I could slowly feel the shroud of depression lifting. This brings me to where I am today; I am currently doing my grade 12 correspondence studies in math, physics, global geography and bio. By correspondence I mean I am doing the exact same Curriculum as any Grade 12 student but I am teaching it to myself at home through Nova Scotia Department of Education. At this point in time my average in these courses are around 98% and will be receiving my high school diploma in June of this year with the intent on joining the Armed forces to become a pilot. It has been a long road for me to be at even this point in my life as I am now 20 years of age and can not wait any longer to start my life. I guess what i'm trying to get out of this is any kind of feed back as too what might be a good route to take. Is my gap in school going to effect whether or not I get accepted for pilot training even though my GPA is 92%(As of this time). Do I need to look at other options other then Air-Force because of my past educational Mistakes. If you were or are a pilot currently what was your story and how did you get to where you are today. 

Any and all information would be helpful to me, I really appreciate if you took the time to read all of that. 

Nick Blackmore

P.S- I am going in for lasik eye surgery to have my vision corrected  this month, If you think there is no reason for me to even apply because of my past please let me know so i could consider canceling it. 
Thank you


----------



## The Bread Guy

Stand by for a merge ....

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## trampbike

DeBuNkEd said:
			
		

> Do I need to look at other options other then Air-Force because of my past educational Mistakes.



Apply, ace the CFAT/interview/CAPPS, and your "past mistakes" won't count for much once you are merit listed  . 
If pilot is what you want to do, be confident and go for it.

By the way, good job on finishing your high school after dropping out. Such a thing is never easy.


----------



## Gunshark

Go through with your application, by all means. You will need a university degree before you can be a CF Pilot. After high school, you can go the ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) route (plenty of info on that on this forum), where the military will sponsor your education whether it is at RMC (Royal Military College) or civilian university. You best discuss your options directly at the CFRC (Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre).

As for your past schooling, I think the reason you had a hick-up is perfectly justifiable, and in fact - the way you dealt with it and got back on your feet shows character. I would stay perfectly honest about all of this in your interview. It shows that you learned from your life experience and took corrective action. Shows maturity and responsibility.

You have every chance to become a Pilot. Once again, go to the CFRC and talk to a recruiter about your next steps, about your vision, etc etc etc. Be careful which surgery type you get, as I believe not all of the procedures are approved by the CF (refer to the FAQ, Pilot Vision Standards: http://www.forces.ca/en/page/faq-101). If you do some searching, you will find info on this forum on how to best prepare for each step of the application process, especially CFAT (Canadian Forces Aptitude Test), interview, and aircrew selection (that's a big one). You should also keep your application competitive by having things (some or all) like good grades (check), sports, physical activities, leadership activities, volunteering, community involvement, and possibly some indication of your interest in aviation. Again, these are just examples, it may not be possible to have them all but they do look good on your resume.

Start at the CFRC. Good luck!


----------



## pa471856

DeBuNkEd said:
			
		

> I guess what I'm trying to get out of this is any kind of feed back as too what might be a good route to take.



Since you do not have a degree yet there are two options right now (as long as CEOTP is still open, which I think it is):

ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) - They pay for your school and pay you a wage while you attend school in return you owe them a few more years of service then some other entry plans. There are a couple of options RMC or a civilian university.

CEOTP (Continuing Education Officer Training Plan) - Right now they have a rather new program in partnership with Seneca College in the GTA. If I were you I would try and go this way because you get your degree and wings within four years. 

Talk to your recruiting centre they will have much more info on these programs. I am not a pilot in the CF, but I have applied for ROTP, CEOTP (before the Seneca program), and DEO so I have done some research and have a little experience with each process. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me.


----------



## Gunshark

Hey guys, I talked to someone today who is already in the RCAF awaiting his pilot training. He said the CF is looking to remove CAPSS and use computerized testing. Does anyone have info on this? Truth or myth? Thanks.


----------



## hopingfordeo

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Hey guys, I talked to someone today who is already in the RCAF awaiting his pilot training. He said the CF is looking to remove CAPSS and use computerized testing. Does anyone have info on this? Truth or myth? Thanks.



I was told the same thing at ACS.


----------



## Gunshark

hopingfordeo said:
			
		

> I was told the same thing at ACS.



Interesting. Any indication as to when that might be happening?


----------



## NLockhart

I was told the same thing about phasing out CAPSS for computer based testing. It seemed like it would be pretty soon since we were warned that we could possibly be in limbo if they went for the computer based testing because they said they would have to figure out how to convert the portion of our composite scores that would reflect how well we performed in CAPSS to a number that makes sense in the computer tests. Hopefully I will be selected by the time that happens.

Is there a thread for the DEO Pilot June 24 Selection? If not, we should get one going for all of us who are merit listed.


----------



## Gunshark

Thanks for the info, NLockhart. Are they planning to introduce new computer testing? Or just go with the one that has already been taking place as part of Aircrew Selection?


----------



## NLockhart

I was told that they currently use the first math problems and the coordination test where you need to keep the red dot in the crosshairs. The scores from these tests go towards your composite score and are independent of the CAPSS score which is more of a probability than a score.  So doing well now on those first two tests will help for selection this year. The other tests are used for research. I'm guessing they are going to find out which tests give the closest results to the CAPSS program and use those ones. I'm a little sad to see CAPSS go because it was a fun experience but if the computer tests can spit out an equally close probability that CAPSS would then I could see it makes sense from a cost perspective. By the way most of the information I am giving is from my debrief with that Navy Commander in case you were wondering.


----------



## Gunshark

Thanks again. I read that you passed CAPSS - good work! I was in Trenton in January and got AEC but not Pilot. We were told that they use the AEC test to help rank those Pilot candidates who pass CAPSS, so it's important to do well on all tests.

The reason I'm curious about any potential changes is because I am looking to apply again. So it would help to know if there will be a new computer test or if they will use the results of the tests I have already done at Aircrew Selection. It would also help to know when this change will be taking place.

I emailed a couple of people at the Toronto CFRC that I've dealt with in the past, and they have no information on any upcoming changes in the Pilot selection process. So far it seems this info is only coming in by word of mouth from Trenton. Do you know of any other recent posts here discussing this?

Cheers.


----------



## NLockhart

No, I haven't seen anything around here. I think it's fairly new. I did my ACS only two weeks ago and the only person I heard this from was the Commander. I wouldn't be too worried about it. Its going to be hard for you and me to know when or if this change is happening and by the time we do will it be beneficial to you? Im not sure. I would just reapply and do your best at whatever they throw your way. Do you have to get your PPL to reapply or are you PPL going to CPL?


----------



## Gunshark

Absolutely, I plan to do whatever I must. But it's good to know the details. I have to get PPL, currently working on it.


----------



## Gunshark

If anyone else is doing their PPL to reapply, shoot me a PM. Would be cool to chat. Cheers.


----------



## NLockhart

I have my PPL so if you have questions just about the license then shoot em my way and I'll try to help


----------



## Duckman54

I was in Trenton week before Lockhart and was told same thing... CAPSS will soon be replaced solely by desktop PC-based tests... Without any specifics, (careful N! Lol) believe I was told the testing would consist of 5 of those 'tests' that we did as part of AEC testing, plus 8 others... So in other words 'more of the same kinda thing'. I was not given a date for the changeover, but seem to recall she said 'Next year'...

Have fun with PPL!  By the time new application gets thru, will probably be into new system. Let THEM worry about the transition period... They've done this before. Lol!  Good luck!

'Greg.


----------



## NLockhart

I wasn't ever told that we couldn't discuss information on ACS and the information I posted won't help anyone on ACS. People can get all the info they want about that course but at the end of the day they have to go there for themselves and perform.


----------



## Gunshark

Thanks a lot for the info guys, and for the offer to help out. Appreciate it. Cheers.


----------



## Gunshark

An important update, for those interested. The recruiting centre wouldn't comment on any changes earlier. But I got in touch with the Toronto recruiter again today and here's the latest on pilot selection:

- Looks like it's official. The new selection system is in place. The recruiter did not provide details on it, but there is an applicant from the 'Application Process Samples' thread who was loaded on July 15 Aircrew Selection who was told that it will take less days than before and simulator testing will not be part of it.

- The year-long wait upon failure of Aircrew Selection is still on. For example, if you were unsuccessful in Aircrew Selection in January 2013, you cannot submit a new application until January 2014.

- Upgrading to a pilot license is no longer required.

- Applicants will not be thrown into testing without some preparation. I am assuming this means there will be study guide available at some point.

Curious about the new testing methods. If anyone is going to or coming back from Trenton, please feel free to share anything you are allowed to share. Thanks very much.

And to finish with a disclaimer: This info is the result of my personal research. Please check with your recruiter for official information.


----------



## Mikmaq

Gunshark said:
			
		

> An important update, for those interested. The recruiting centre wouldn't comment on any changes earlier. But I got in touch with the Toronto recruiter again today and here's the latest on pilot selection:
> 
> - Looks like it's official. The new selection system is in place. The recruiter did not provide details on it, but there is an applicant from the 'Application Process Samples' thread who was loaded on July 15 Aircrew Selection who was told that it will take less days than before and simulator testing will not be part of it.
> 
> - The year-long wait upon failure of Aircrew Selection is still on. For example, if you were unsuccessful in Aircrew Selection in January 2013, you cannot submit a new application until January 2014.
> 
> - Upgrading to a pilot license is no longer required.
> 
> - Applicants will not be thrown into testing without some preparation. I am assuming this means there will be study guide available at some point.
> 
> Curious about the new testing methods. If anyone is going to or coming back from Trenton, please feel free to share anything you are allowed to share. Thanks very much.
> 
> And to finish with a disclaimer: This info is the result of my personal research. Please check with your recruiter for official information.



Interesting. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Gunshark

Mikmaq said:
			
		

> Interesting. Thanks for sharing!



You got it.


----------



## Gunshark

The following public page has been brought to my attention: http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/8w-8e/cfasc-cspnfc/index-eng.asp

It appears the aircrew selection testing has changed. The links at the bottom of the page reflect the changes. Note that CAPSS is no longer part of the testing.


----------



## MikeD

Gunshark said:
			
		

> The following public page has been brought to my attention: http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/8w-8e/cfasc-cspnfc/index-eng.asp
> 
> It appears the aircrew selection testing has changed. The links at the bottom of the page reflect the changes. Note that CAPSS is no longer part of the testing.



Wow, thanks a lot! It is the "CFASC Candidate Guide" that must have been updated because other documents mention CAPSS.

Seems some of the free tests on this site http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/site/mypage/id/pilot-aptitude-test.html might  be helpful.


----------



## Gunshark

> Wow, thanks a lot! It is the "CFASC Candidate Guide" that must have been updated because other documents mention CAPSS.



Yes, that's the one that's new.



> Seems some of the free tests on this site http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/site/mypage/id/pilot-aptitude-test.html might  be helpful.



Thanks. Couldn't hurt.


----------



## Char546

Just wondering if any CEOTP-Pilot applicants out there have received offers from the July 4th selection date? Also any information with regards to intake numbers would be much appreciated.


----------



## MikeD

Char546 said:
			
		

> Just wondering if any CEOTP-Pilot applicants out there have received offers from the July 4th selection date? Also any information with regards to intake numbers would be much appreciated.



I went in for my medical, CFAT, and interview on the 2nd. My interviewer told me it would be tight if they could get my file to the people doing the selection. But he said they are also selecting people at the end of the month. My reference got a call the other day so I don't know who initiates that, the local recruiting centre or someone higher up.


----------



## Char546

If you got an offer I guess it would be conditional on passing ASC, any idea when you'll be going? Which recruitng centre are you dealing with and did they give any indication of how many people they need this year? In any case best of luck, I hope it works out for you.


----------



## MikeD

I am dealing with the Halifax recruiting centre. I wasn't told about the amount of people they are looking for but on this forum I heard 20 people minimum for CEOTP to a max of 40. With the amount of people who will fail ACS and PFT they can easily accept 40 to 100 people. Thanks a lot, good luck to you too!


----------



## DAA

There is NO such thing as a conditional offer if you have not completed ASC or do not have an Air Factor assigned.  You must complete the FULL processing, prior to being merit listed.


----------



## PuckChaser

MikeD said:
			
		

> I am dealing with the Halifax recruiting centre. I wasn't told about the amount of people they are looking for but on this forum I heard 20 people minimum for CEOTP to a max of 40. With the amount of people who will fail ACS and PFT they can easily accept 40 to 100 people. Thanks a lot, good luck to you too!



They have already factored in people failing PFT into the recruiting numbers. Don't artificially inflate numbers for people especially if they're based on rumour and completely outside your lane.


----------



## MikeD

If they need 20 people in the program minimum they will need to accept at least 40 people to move onto ACS. I already mentioned that I heard these things in this forum. Maybe you should call out those people?


----------



## PuckChaser

Just because you pass ACS doesn't mean you get a position. Numbers for ACS are irrelevant into the number of positions for Pilot/etc. If we had the money, we could do 5,000 ACS runs every year, and still only have 35 positions available.


----------



## Char546

When I went to Trenton we had three CEOTP applicants in our group. On a side note, seeing how CAPSS is no longer in use, can a pilot applicant who passed aircrew selection before the reform be compared to applicants going through the process now? I was told the bulk of your assement score depends on CAPSS so how could pilot candidates be acurately compared if they went through a different testing process?


----------



## Chowhar

Just took the new test at Trenton today. Our group was the second to have done the new test. Prepare for the mentally toughest test of your life! That's what we all felt and promptly went to the officers mess for a drink! Just a warning, it's pretty brutal but it's designed that way on purpose to push you beyond your limit. Some of it was fun though!


----------



## Gunshark

Chowhar said:
			
		

> Just took the new test at Trenton today. Our group was the second to have done the new test. Prepare for the mentally toughest test of your life! That's what we all felt and promptly went to the officers mess for a drink! Just a warning, it's pretty brutal but it's designed that way on purpose to push you beyond your limit. Some of it was fun though!



Thanks for the post. How did the group do? How long was it?


----------



## Chowhar

It's a full day, 7am until about 6pm. The actual computer time was around 6 hours and there's a break after each hour or so and lunch. You can download the study guide with all the tests and all the tests are listed. Shortest about 2 mins up to about 30 mins. Your brain is working overtime throughout.

First batch was 32% pass, only 2 passed. We all thought we failed but surprisingly 6 of 8 made it. But they will be testing twice a week so many more can be tested and those with highest scores get selected first. The system is actually from the UK. I'm so drained after it but anyone who's done it should feel proud to have survived it!


----------



## Gunshark

Thanks, appreciate the feedback. So I guess every single test from the study guide was administered eh?


----------



## Chowhar

No problem, I feel we were like guinea pigs and nobody at this stage knows what to expect. For pilot then yes all tests. There was one in the guide we didn't have but I think a couple that weren't. Pilots do the AEC tests also and not sure which are specific to each occupation but many apply to both. If you are preparing to go do it, the guide helps you a bit to know the style but doesn't really give the whole picture. You really can't study for it but practicing fast mental arithmetic will aid you in some tests. All I can say is nobody will feel like they are doing well but don't let it discourage you!


----------



## Gunshark

Thanks Chowhar. Good luck on your selection process.


----------



## skyhigh10

I find that pretty interesting that they are doing away with the sims!  Just one long tedious day of brain games. 

If it takes less time and yields similar success rates , why not?  

Will the sims be left in tact? Seems like there was an awful lot of money invested in those sims / programs.


----------



## MikeD

I believe they have been around for almost 25 years so I think they must have gotten their money's worth out of them. It probably might cost a lot to maintain and run them.


----------



## RectorCR

I was merit listed as an Infantry Officer back in May. If I ask my RC to add Pilot to my trade options what else has to be done? Do I have to do another interview? Will it throw a wrench into things if Infantry Officer opens up? Would I be able to go to Trenton for testing before Aug/Sept BMOQ?


----------



## pa471856

RectorCR said:
			
		

> I was merit listed as an Infantry Officer back in May. If I ask my RC to add Pilot to my trade options what else has to be done? Do I have to do another interview? Will it throw a wrench into things if Infantry Officer opens up? Would I be able to go to Trenton for testing before Aug/Sept BMOQ?




If you add Pilot to your application there are a few extra steps you will need to do. 

1) There is an extra eye exam you need to add to your medical.
2) I am pretty sure you will need to do an update interview.

As long as that goes ok they will load you on to a ASC course, not too sure how long that will take, but if you are successful it normally takes about a month or so for your air factor to be completed and merit listed so I would say that an August/September BMOQ would be unlikely. Though not technically impossible. 

It took me a little over 18 months from submission online to offer.

Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck.


----------



## 26point2

Did Aircrew Selection this week -- passed the grueling day of testing on Monday, then the Medical yesterday went pretty well.  Had to re-do the hearing test this morning is all, but it's good enough for pilot.  Have to wait at least a month for air factor and merit listing etc.  Didn't really have anything else to add to what Chowhar mentioned earlier this week.

I thought we were a tight-knit little group throughout the process.  Even during the medical, the staff remarked how we seemed to get along.  It was a great experience, now just hoping to keep moving on!


----------



## NLockhart

Congrats. 

Just a heads up for some of you who have recently completed aircrew, it took over 8 weeks for me to get my official air factor/merit list. I was told 3 weeks. Some of the other guys I went to ACS got theirs at a more normal time and I had no issues whatsoever so it seems to vary. Keep pressure on your file manager if it starts to take longer than normal


----------



## 26point2

We were told yesterday they were working files from June 2nd, that's how backed up they are.


----------



## Chowhar

26point2 said:
			
		

> We were told yesterday they were working files from June 2nd, that's how backed up they are.



Another note, we were also told that since Aircrew Selection will be twice a week, it will put more pressure on them to process files so that's not going to make the situation any better.

Also, I would advise people not to take the medical part too lightly. We were told all last week's successful candidates failed the medical. I believe this was due to the anthropometric measurements being out of range. In fact I'm pretty average and was borderline for the Grob trainer which would have failed me. Even if your eyes, ears, lungs, and heart are perfect, you just might not fit safely!


----------



## Chowhar

26point2 said:
			
		

> Did Aircrew Selection this week -- passed the grueling day of testing on Monday, then the Medical yesterday went pretty well.  Had to re-do the hearing test this morning is all, but it's good enough for pilot.  Have to wait at least a month for air factor and merit listing etc.  Didn't really have anything else to add to what Chowhar mentioned earlier this week.
> 
> I thought we were a tight-knit little group throughout the process.  Even during the medical, the staff remarked how we seemed to get along.  It was a great experience, now just hoping to keep moving on!



Totally agree, great experience with you and the rest of the group. The number of Top Gun quotes we went through was unreal!!


----------



## skyhigh10

Chowhar said:
			
		

> The number of Top Gun quotes we went through was unreal!!



Um,  what?


----------



## MBeaner

Hi all,

I'm currently in my last co-op term for my mechanical engineering degree, with 8 months of school left to graduate in May of 2014. I'm planning on signing up in an attempt to be a DEO pilot, with the final goal of test pilot with the AETE (to also use my degree in some way). I have a couple questions:

- I have dual citizenship with Finland, as well as an immediate relative living in that country. I understand there is an extra screening process due to this which the Forces website says could take from 6-18 months. I assume that since Finland and NATO have a good relationship that I would be on the lower end of this scale, however signing up earlier could also help ensure that once I graduate I am ready to begin ASAP. Are you able to sign up before graduating and provide in-progress transcripts, with some sort of "available by" date on the application so this part of the process could take place while I am still in school, or must I have a completed degree and transcripts before I am able to apply?

- With the AETE, I'd be doing some engineering work (as far as I have heard from discussions at least). Would this work fit the qualifications to obtain a P. Eng. while with the forces? Requirements include working under a licensed P. Eng while doing your work. 

Thank you for any answers you're able to provide!


----------



## SupersonicMax

MBeaner,

AETE will not be for several years after joining.  After training (2 years), accumulate 1500 hrs (3-5 years, depending on the platform) become a section lead or Aircraft Captain, go through the selection process (1 more year, fairly difficult), attend Test Pilot School (1 year), then you cam start working as a test pilot.  Since you are a test PILOT vs a test ENGINEER, I don't believe you will be able to count that towards P. Eng.  So, don't count on starting to work on engineering projects before 7 years (optimistic) after you join.


----------



## davidf33

Is it hard to become a pilot if you have no history or practice flying before?  Interested in becoming one but am a bit hesitant because of my lack of experience.


----------



## Good2Golf

To be honest, it's hard whether you have previous flying experience or not.  

RCAF flying is challenging and in many cases notably different from commercial/private flying, so having previous experience may help in some respects, but may not in others.  If that's what you want to do, then your best course of action is to go to your nearest recruiting centre to get the most up to date information regarding a career as a pilot in the RCAF.

Regards
G2G


----------



## estoguy

skyhigh10 said:
			
		

> Um,  what?



Please tell me you are aware of the film, Top Gun? ???

If not, you really need to see it.  Not 100% factual about what the job is like, but some fun 80s popcorn with some really great flight cinematography - well before the CG era.  If you pick up the DVD, listen to the comment track, and you get an appreciation of how this film was made. 

"I feel the need... the need for speed!"


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I don't believe I've ever seen the phases "Top Gun movie" and "you really need to see it!" together before!!!   :blotto:


----------



## topgun13

Since I was a little kid I always wanted to fly. I had great grades in high school and with job prospects/money into consideration I completed my university degree of Bachelors of Commerce specializing in finance. I got 78% gpa and landed a great job as a credit analyst. It was soon that I realized that it just was not for me. Somewhere along the line I did not follow my dreams of becoming a pilot. I am 21 years old and unhappy, although making good money / full benefits and promising future. I now decided to enroll in the army and would really enjoy being a part of something. (team environment) instead of sitting at my desk 8-5.

-I decided today to join the army
Here is my question, on my application I chose Pilot but I am not sure I can qualify with a bachelors of commerce.

Would appreciate advice on how I can be successful on my application.

Topgun13


----------



## Zoomie

topgun13 said:
			
		

> -I decided today to join the army


Congrats


> Here is my question, on my application I chose Pilot but I am not sure I can qualify with a bachelors of commerce.


You most certainly qualify with that degree.


> Would appreciate advice on how I can be successful on my application.


You need to change your application to state that you wish to join the RCAF.


----------



## Van Gogh

topgun13 said:
			
		

> Since I was a little kid I always wanted to fly. I had great grades in high school and with job prospects/money into consideration I completed my university degree of Bachelors of Commerce specializing in finance. I got 78% gpa and landed a great job as a credit analyst. It was soon that I realized that it just was not for me. Somewhere along the line I did not follow my dreams of becoming a pilot. I am 21 years old and unhappy, although making good money / full benefits and promising future. I now decided to enroll in the army and would really enjoy being a part of something. (team environment) instead of sitting at my desk 8-5.
> 
> -I decided today to join the army
> Here is my question, on my application I chose Pilot but I am not sure I can qualify with a bachelors of commerce.
> 
> Would appreciate advice on how I can be successful on my application.
> 
> Topgun13



Biggest factor for success - patience.
The recruiting process is gonna take a looooooong time and if you still are just as motivated to join the forces by the end of your recruiting process, than you are successful I would say !!!


----------



## brihard

If you want to be a pilot, you will be Air Force, not Army. All of our pilots are Air Force.

A commerce degree is acceptable for pilot. No specific degree is needed for that job.

You will still spend most of your career sitting at a desk- but others will come along who can speak to that better than I.


----------



## Sf2

Brihard said:
			
		

> You will still spend most of your career sitting at a desk- but others will come along who can speak to that better than I.



18yrs in, 4 operational tours....no staff tour yet (knock on wood  )


----------



## Good2Golf

SF2 said:
			
		

> 18yrs in, 4 operational tours....no staff tour yet (knock on wood  )



…you may have just jinxed yourself, SF2.   


TG13, a BCom is fine, like Zoomie says.  Once you're in the system, you can state your desires as to which stream of the RCAF you would like to be in, but that won't mean that such desires will come first.  You may also find yourself in one of a number of various 'sub-Air Forces' within the RCAF: fighter, training, search and rescue, transport, maritime long-range patrol, maritime (Naval) aviation, tactical (Army) aviation and special operations aviation.  Each has a unique character and some often characterize them by their primary association (tac avn as 'Army' aviation, etc…)

Brihard, that's it…I'm not coming up to visit you…I'll be sitting behind a desk…  

Yes, later in a pilots career, is it likely for them to be assigned to a staff job or another posting where there is more paperwork involved than earlier in their career.   Is that a bad thing?  No, the administration of the business of delivering airpower doesn't happen without people doing more than just strapping in for a few hours then Timex-killing afterwards in the mess..

:2c:

Regards
G2G


----------



## Loachman

Brihard said:
			
		

> All of our pilots are Air Force.



Some are SOFCOM.

And, when deployed, some are CJOC.

And some of us are very green (or dark blue) on the inside, regardless of the unnatural organizational structure of the CF today.


----------



## Journeyman

Brihard said:
			
		

> All of our pilots are Air Force.


Yet they wear green flying suits -- social climbers....._wishing_ they were Army aviators.  op:


----------



## topgun13

Hey guys,

Thanks for the great feedback. I don't mind sitting at a desk doing admin work if that's what the job requires. I would just like to spend the rest of my life doing something I enjoy. Life my dad used to tell me: "if you love what you do, you will never work a day in your life". That being said I know the Pilot program is very difficult. Anyone know the success rate? (I am leaving a high paying job with benefits).

Topgun13


----------



## Loachman

One in eight hundred applicants makes it to Wings standard, or so I was told three decades ago.


----------



## Gunshark

Loachman said:
			
		

> One in eight hundred applicants makes it to Wings standard, or so I was told three decades ago.



Thanks for the encouragement, Loachman


----------



## trampbike

A bit more encouraging: failure rates for PFT have varied from 0% (PFT 1305) to about 50% this year.


----------



## Good2Golf

It varies, and I can't speak for ratios of applicants to recruitment offers, but post CFRC, here's what I saw during my training.

Pre Flt trg - 40% pass rate (basic trg, etc...) 
Ph 1 - 25% pass rate
Ph 2 - 60% pass rate
Ph 3 - 85% pass rate
A/C  - 100% pass rate (I was 1/1  )

Total = 0.051:1 probability, or 20:1 odds against, once you get through the Recruiting Center.


Regards
G2G


----------



## Gunshark

Thanks G2G. What is the future like for the other 19/20?


----------



## Gunshark

...or 20/21 I should say, I suppose.


----------



## Journeyman

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Thanks G2G. What is the future like for the other 19/20?


The Land of Misfit Toys -- Intelligence, Public Affairs, Training Development.   op:


.....or Influence Activities if you switch to Army Reserves


----------



## theforcewithin

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The Land of Misfit Toys -- Intelligence, Public Affairs, Training Development.   op:
> 
> 
> .....or Influence Activities if you switch to Army Reserves



The sad part is, those are the 3 trades I applied for, without even failing pilot selection. *sigh*

Influence Activities sounds like a good backup plan, though.


----------



## Loachman

Well, as you seem to have plenty of time on your hands before a slot in any of your preferred occupations opens up for you, you may as well attempt to fail Pilot training in the meantime.

That may even speed things up for you.


----------



## theforcewithin

Loachman said:
			
		

> Well, as you seem to have plenty of time on your hands before a slot in any of your preferred occupations opens up for you, you may as well attempt to fail Pilot training in the meantime.
> 
> That may even speed things up for you.



Sounds like a good plan! I'll have to check whether or not the PLAR has to be done before I can add pilot, though...but add it, I shall.

At least I'll succeed at failing!


----------



## dchan3154

Hey there im currently a Mseop in the primary reserve hoping one day to be a pilot. Would it be wise to become an officer as soon as i graduate my post secondary and finish my pilots licence before i try to do a CT to reg force pilot? and suggestions are welcome. Thanks


----------



## Loachman

Achieving the required medical standard and CFAT score and passing Aircrew Selection will count for more than Reserve time at any rank.

Nobody cared about my Reserve time or rank (Lieutenant) when I applied for Pilot, and I doubt that that has changed much.

If you want a Pilot Licence in order to have a Pilot Licence, then get one, but it won't make a significant difference either way, in the end.

People with no flying time at all have made it through, and people with piles of hours have not. Candidates are taught what they need to know when they need to know it.

I had sixteen years as a CF Pilot and well north of 3000 hours before I ever had a licence.

The whole system is designed to select candidates who have a reasonable chance of success and give them the means to achieve that success, if they are capable.


----------



## Loachman

theforcewithin said:
			
		

> At least I'll succeed at failing!



Or you may surprise yourself and fail at failing.

Whatever you decide to do, want it enough and be prepared to work very hard.


----------



## DAA

dchan3154 said:
			
		

> Hey there im currently a Mseop in the primary reserve hoping one day to be a pilot. Would it be wise to become an officer as soon as i graduate my post secondary and finish my pilots licence before i try to do a CT to reg force pilot? and suggestions are welcome. Thanks



Pilot is Pilot.  Whether you have experience or not, is not a critical factor.  Loachman has some very good points as well.

If you are a currently serving NCM or Offr PRes member and want to go Pilot, I would suggest you apply now, as the process is very very very slow........also, you allude to the fact that you are pursuing post sec studies, so you may want to look at RESO through your unit as well.


----------



## Nublet

Hey guys,
I'm a newcomer to this site and I was wondering if you guys could answer a few questions regarding the career of air force pilot. I know you guys hate seeing the same questions asked over and over again so I narrowed it down thanks to the search tool.

1. What are the swimming standards like for pilots? (not a strong swimmer)

2. Can you choose what kind of aircraft you'd like to be trained in/fly full time? (more interested in being a helicopter pilot)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Nublet said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> I'm a newcomer to this site and I was wondering if you guys could answer a few questions regarding the career of air force pilot. I know you guys hate seeing the same questions asked over and over again so I narrowed it down thanks to the search tool.
> 
> 1. What are the swimming standards like for pilots? (not a strong swimmer)
> 
> 2. Can you choose what kind of aircraft you'd like to be trained in/fly full time? (more interested in being a helicopter pilot)


Lookit all the answers you can find in the thread before your post now that it's merged.

Search - it can be your friend.


----------



## Loachman

Nublet said:
			
		

> 1. What are the swimming standards like for pilots? (not a strong swimmer)



I prefer to avoid any body of water bigger or cooler than a hot tub, preferably with a good supply of emergency vodka at hand, just in case.



			
				Nublet said:
			
		

> 2. Can you choose what kind of aircraft you'd like to be trained in/fly full time?



Yes, of course.

Will your choice be honoured?

Maybe.

Maybe not.


----------



## Melbatoast

Nublet said:
			
		

> 1. What are the swimming standards like for pilots? (not a strong swimmer)



There is presumably still swimming in basic training, and you do pilot-specific sea survival training in which you spend a lot of time in seawater and being dragged behind a small selection of boats. I found the course pretty fun and got a lot out of it.


----------



## s2184

Hi,

If anyone interested in knowing about Seneca College/Toronto Airways Commercial Pilot Program, there is an information session taking place at Markham Campus tomorrow (Wednesday 18th December 2013) at 7.00 p.m.

More Info: http://www.senecacollege.ca/ce/technology/aviation/commercial-pilot-training.html#OrientationInfo


----------



## turtona

Hi i am looking for some information and help regarding applying for Pilot. I apologize i advance as this is my first time considering the military and my knowledge is lacking on how process works, and keep reading things i am not really sure of. There seemed to be many people on this page that really seemed genuine to helping and answering questions.

I see on the main forces web site it says Pilot is in demand right now. I am looking to apply for this position, however i have not talked to a recruiter at all yet about joining the military. I do have a college diploma aswell as a University degree (nothing to to with flying but a business degree) as is required to become an officer and a pilot.

I have been reading these blogs for hours trying to find some direction as exactly how the process work in regards to applying to become a Pilot. 

- So i guess how does the process work?  (visit recruiter, test evaluation, cfat, job offers, time frames ect)
- Do they only recruit pilots from RMC? or what is the chance they will recruit from a civilian school
- Do they only look for candidates that have flying experience? 
- I keep seeing people talk about DEO, ASC, air factor (what are these)?

I guess i am just really looking to get a handle on how this hole process works, and what the time frame is like a i am going into this know very little about the process.

i really hope you guys can help out and help me understand the pass ti become a Pilot..
I am extremely excited to dive in to this career!


----------



## George Wallace

Read this:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103289/post-1089064.html#msg1089064


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Read this:
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103289/post-1089064.html#msg1089064


Or this:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/12744.0.html

Search can be your friend.

Also, work on the writing/capitalization.  How you write affects how the people who see that writing sees you.


----------



## matthew1786

turtona said:
			
		

> 1. So i guess how does the process work?  (visit recruiter, test evaluation, cfat, job offers, time frames ect)
> 2. Do they only recruit pilots from RMC? or what is the chance they will recruit from a civilian school
> 3. Do they only look for candidates that have flying experience?
> 4. I keep seeing people talk about DEO, ASC, air factor (what are these)?



*This information is coming from a fellow applicant who has done tons of research about this already, and please note that none of my answers are official in any way:*

1. Once you are ready to make your application, apply online by following the link on the forces.ca website. When your application is chosen for further processing at your local recruiting center, you will be notified via email (will be your second email) and it will be up to you to contact the recruiting center (CFRC). At this point they will tell you all of the necessary supporting documents that you will need to provide and fill out for your application to continue. Once you have given them all the documents, they will contact you to schedule the aptitude test (CFAT), medical, interview, and in the case of pilot; aircrew selection (ASC) which consists of an advanced and specialized aptitude test and an advanced medical in Trenton (Ontario). I am not familiar with the order in which these are scheduled but generally the CFAT is always first. Since you already hold a bachelors, you will not need to apply to RMC (Royal Military College) unless you want a second bachelor's degree. Everyone has a different time-frame but the general rule of thumb is be patient becuase it's going to take a while. See the application process samples thread for examples of time frames. Once you complete and pass all the steps, you will be placed on a dynamic and always changing merit list which is competitive based. Positions are generally offered in a top down fashion, i.e. the person who ranks 1st on the list will be the first person to receive an offer, etc.

2. No. Anyone who holds a bachelor's degree from an accredited University is eligible to apply. About who has better chances, RMC or civilian university, I can't answer that. I think there are a certain amount of slots allocated to each entry path every fiscal year. But I'm not sure.

3. No. I've actually read many posts from pilots on here who say that having prior flying experience may even work against you as military flying is very different than civilian flying.

4. DEO = Direct Entry Officer. This is one of the entry plans for the pilot occupation. In order to qualify for DEO, you need to of have either obtained a bachelor's degree from an accredited university or be in the last year of your studies pursuing said bachelor's degree. ASC = Aircrew Selection Center or (CFASC for Canadian Forces Aircrew Selection Center). This is one of the steps in your application process for pilot. Basically you will go to 8 Wing Trenton for one week and be subjected to two days of aptitude examinations and another 2 days for an advanced medical (the medical is actually in Toronto and you will only go there if you pass the aptitude test) + travel time. Air Factor is one of the 6 enrollment medical evaluations. The six evaluations are: visual acuity - color vision - hearing - geographical factor - occupatonal factor - air factor. For pilot you need at least 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 1 in order to qualify.

I'm sure you have hundreds of other questions. Before asking a single one, feel free to use the search button in these forums as there is a wealth of information already on here that can and will answer 99% of your questions. Also, don't be shy to drop by your CFRC and speak to a recruiter and ask all the questions you want, that is what they are there for!

Good luck!


----------



## redorange363

I passed all the requirements for pilot - including the aircrew selection and medicals at Downsview.  I am hoping to be accepted into the Seneca program - currently scheduled to write the exams at Seneca this week.  When you talk about the process being long - any idea how long, any chance of getting accepted into the program for September 2014?  I am just finishing high school so I am hoping to get into the program at Seneca or I am just going to do engineering at another university.  Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## DAA

redorange363 said:
			
		

> I passed all the requirements for pilot - including the aircrew selection and medicals at Downsview.  I am hoping to be accepted into the Seneca program - currently scheduled to write the exams at Seneca this week.  When you talk about the process being long - any idea how long, any chance of getting accepted into the program for September 2014?  I am just finishing high school so I am hoping to get into the program at Seneca or I am just going to do engineering at another university.  Any advice would be appreciated.



If you are applying and going through the process NOW, then that would be for a start in either Sep 14 or Jan 15.


----------



## kolkim

On the Payscales page on the CF website, Pilots are in their own section with the lowest rank starting as Captain. Does this mean you skip 2nd Lieutenant and Lieutenant, going from OC to Capt? Does anybody know the process to becoming a Pilot Captain? 

My understanding is, get a Degree, apply, get accepted, officer's Basic Training, then Captain?


----------



## DAA

kolkim said:
			
		

> On the Payscales page on the CF website, Pilots are in their own section with the lowest rank starting as Captain. Does this mean you skip 2nd Lieutenant and Lieutenant, going from OC to Capt? Does anybody know the process to becoming a Pilot Captain?
> 
> My understanding is, get a Degree, apply, get accepted, officer's Basic Training, then Captain?



Nope, you still have to go through the rank levels, I am sure someone who is there or is already a Pilot can explain it better.  But until you are promoted to the rank of Capt, those pay scales do not apply to you.


----------



## Sarah_H

No, you don't start at Captain. You have to work your way up. My brother is currently doing his pilot training and I believe his rank is 2nd Lieutenant at the moment.


----------



## kolkim

Ah, thank you very much. I just know that like a pharmacy officer starts at Captain so I was wondering if Pilots were the same


----------



## DAA

kolkim said:
			
		

> Ah, thank you very much. I just know that like a pharmacy officer starts at Captain so I was wondering if Pilots were the same



Not necessarily, so a Pharm O just doesn't sign on the dotted line and suddenly become a Capt.  They too, still have required trg prior to reaching that rank.


----------



## bradley247

You are a second lieutenant for the duration of your pilot training, whether it takes 2 years or 5+ years. Once you get your wings you are promoted to lieutenant, however if getting your wings took longer than 3 years from your commissioning date, you go directly to captain when you get your wings. This was the norm until recently, but the training system is working better these days.


----------



## kev994

So while you are waiting for promotion to Capt you get paid as a GSO.


----------



## PuckChaser

If you're in the fighter stream, there's a practical test involving motorcycle driving beside a runway, locker room standoff with a coworker and a cut-throat game of shirtless beach volleyball.


----------



## bradley247

kev994 said:
			
		

> So while you are waiting for promotion to Capt you get paid as a GSO.



Correct, there is no pilot pay scale for 2Lt/Lt.


----------



## dimsum

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you're in the fighter stream, there's a practical test involving motorcycle driving beside a runway, locker room standoff with a coworker and a cut-throat game of shirtless beach volleyball.



:rofl:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you're in the fighter stream, there's a practical test involving motorcycle driving beside a runway, locker room standoff with a coworker and a cut-throat game of shirtless beach volleyball.



THAT was some funny shit right there!   ;D


----------



## pa471856

redorange363 said:
			
		

> I passed all the requirements for pilot - including the aircrew selection and medicals at Downsview.  I am hoping to be accepted into the Seneca program - currently scheduled to write the exams at Seneca this week.  When you talk about the process being long - any idea how long, any chance of getting accepted into the program for September 2014?  I am just finishing high school so I am hoping to get into the program at Seneca or I am just going to do engineering at another university.  Any advice would be appreciated.



You will not be done able to make the September 2014 intake. I am at 3 CFFTS right now and they are trying to push a ton of Seneca guys through before the September 2014 class. The pre-req's to attending Seneca are BMOQ and successful completion of Phase I, here in Portage, so you have to do the 15 weeks in St Jean, and then the 8 weeks here (more likely longer with the weather the way its been) before you could go. As far as I am aware they are only starting classes in September each year as or right now, and the plan is Phase I - 2 semesters at Seneca - then Phase II and III - then back to Seneca for 3 more semesters, then to OTU. Best of luck.


----------



## MikeD

redorange363 said:
			
		

> I passed all the requirements for pilot - including the aircrew selection and medicals at Downsview.  I am hoping to be accepted into the Seneca program - currently scheduled to write the exams at Seneca this week.  When you talk about the process being long - any idea how long, any chance of getting accepted into the program for September 2014?  I am just finishing high school so I am hoping to get into the program at Seneca or I am just going to do engineering at another university.  Any advice would be appreciated.



I am in almost the exact same boat as you. Will be doing my Seneca test probably next week.


----------



## MikeD

Teach17 said:
			
		

> You will not be done able to make the September 2014 intake. I am at 3 CFFTS right now and they are trying to push a ton of Seneca guys through before the September 2014 class. The pre-req's to attending Seneca are BMOQ and successful completion of Phase I, here in Portage, so you have to do the 15 weeks in St Jean, and then the 8 weeks here (more likely longer with the weather the way its been) before you could go. As far as I am aware they are only starting classes in September each year as or right now, and the plan is Phase I - 2 semesters at Seneca - then Phase II and III - then back to Seneca for 3 more semesters, then to OTU. Best of luck.



Is that only 5 semesters total at Seneca? So 2.5 years?


----------



## redorange363

I received my offer of enrolment with the Canadian Forces today.  BMOQ starts August 25 (doing the CEOTP Pilot - Seneca program).   Thanks to everyone for all the information and advice - greatly appreciate it.


----------



## scttraveller

Hi,

I recently became aware that the Canadian Forces are looking for pilots. I'm 29 years old with an Arts degree from the University of British Columbia. I've been thinking about becoming a pilot for a very long time, but never went through with it because I always thought I would do something else. Unfortunately for me, I've never had a high paying job since finishing university. I don't have the money to go to flight school and obtain my commercial pilot license. After spending some time looking at some of the options available, I'm wondering if it's possible to become a pilot through the military? Anyone here know of any success stories of going from military to civilian aviation? One day in the future, if possible, I would like to fly the Boeing 787.

Am I too old to go down this path at the age of 29? I understand that I'll have to commit to serve for a number of years if I ultimately succeed and past all of the tests. I am fine with that.
I did a bit of research and I know that very few applicants will ever become a fighter pilot. I'm also aware that I can't pick what kind of aircraft that I want to fly. I don't know what the success rate is like, but are the odds relatively high for me to fly other aircraft if I can't fly a fighter plane like the CF-18? If not, are applicants filter out pretty quickly base on their competence?

I do consider myself to be relatively healthy and fit. I am not overweight and fit.  Technically I don't wear glasses. I was given reading glasses by my optometrist when I was a student at UBC because it can be slightly difficult reading Chinese characters (it was mandatory for all Arts students to study a second language at UBC). I don't have any issues reading English at the same distance that I would read Chinese. It's kind of hard to explain unless you have some experience with the Chinese language. The amount of strokes place into the same amount of space that an English character would take can make it tough to read unless you enlarge the Chinese characters. I know I'll ultimately have to take an eye exam, but I thought I would mention this.

What is the application process like? Since I already have a degree, I'm assuming I'm going to be a direct applicant? There is a recruitment session on June 26th in Vancouver. I will drop by and ask more questions or just go by my local recruitment office in New Westminster. I figure it would be best to ask now just so that I can get as much information as I can.

Thank you.


----------



## Master Corporal Steven

Good day,

In addition to the response that you have already received; you can check out the below link that will bring you to the Pilot occupation section of the www.forces.ca recruiting website. There are video's and other important information pertaining to becoming a pilot in the Royal Canadian Air Force that may answer your remaining questions.

http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32


----------



## George Wallace

This topic will be merged with The "So You Want To Be A Pilot" Merged Thread in 24 hours.

Also of interest to the Original Poster:

In this forum: READ FIRST

In army.ca Recruiting Forums:  BEFORE YOU POST - READ THIS:

Am I too old to join/do well/fit in?


----------



## needexcitementinlife

Just wrote my CFAT last week. The recruiter said I qualified but I didn't see my score. I applied for pilot and he said that I will have to wait for a very long time and after a year I will have to apply again. How long until you 'chosen ones' were contacted after writing your aptitude tests? Based on what I was told, my mind says give up but my heart says proceed. I'm a very conflicted individual right now.


----------



## shogun506

needexcitementinlife said:
			
		

> Just wrote my CFAT last week. The recruiter said I qualified but I didn't see my score. I applied for pilot and he said that I will have to wait for a very long time and after a year I will have to apply again. How long until you 'chosen ones' were contacted after writing your aptitude tests? Based on what I was told, my mind says give up but my heart says proceed. I'm a very conflicted individual right now.



Interesting that they're saying that to you, maybe it means the current wave of pilot recruiting might soon be coming to a close. When I applied it took 1 year to go from start to finish and I regularly checked in and pushed and prodded the process along. Among the guys that were accepted with me, the range of waits were from 6 months - 2 years on average with 1 guy who's file was screwed up so many times it took him 6 years (major exception not the rule), but on average I would say a 1 year process is nothing to worry about. If it's something you want to do you do not lose anything by applying and seeing it through. You can always turn down the offer if you ever get it.

To scttraveller, there are many many people that go on to fly civil aviation after flying for the military. Military aviation experience is highly valued in the civilian world and there are lots of people here who want to fly multi-engine aircraft for the sole reason that they want to fly civilian after they release (as to why? beats me). In terms of wanting to fly the CF18, you might be a little late to the party but right now here at Moose Jaw there is a push to get more people selected for the jet stream. It's not as helicopter-centred as it was a little while ago and these days it seems if you work hard you will get your selection. That said, things move fast and who knows how the outlook will be in the future. Just put in your application, you will never be accepted just by thinking about it.


----------



## Gunshark

Hey guys,

I’ve been away from here for a while as I was going through the application steps and mostly playing the waiting game. Decided to check back in now. Some people here may recognize me from before. Anyway, in a nutshell: I first applied for Pilot July 2012, unsuccessful aircrew selection under old system in January 2013, successful aircrew selection under new system in July 2014. However, was told in Trenton that I just squeaked by and met the standard. Final outcome of aircrew medicals at DRDC still unknown. This journey has been no smooth sail as you can see, but I am grateful for every opportunity and experience along the way.

It is out of my hands now, and my next concern is not making the selection even if I do get merit listed. So I’d like to get some idea from the applicants here, or from others who may have info on this. Has anyone completed the aircrew selection successfully and not get an offer? Does this happen all the time? I understand other things play into the selection decision, like the CFAT results, the interview, possibly the personality questionnaire as well. I would just like to get an idea of what to expect given that I _just_ met the standard at aircrew selection, though my CFAT and interview seem to have gone reasonably well.

I have asked the very helpful DAA some questions as well, but I would also appreciate any feedback from any applicants who may have been in a similar spot. Also, you can PM me if you have any questions regarding aircrew selection, etc. I’ve just returned from Trenton, and I’ll be more than happy to answer any questions, though not beyond what I am allowed to disclose.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## frankyboy1

Has anyone gotten a pilot DEO offer recently?


----------



## Molloy

frankyboy1 said:
			
		

> Has anyone gotten a pilot DEO offer recently?



Yup, I got my offer July 17th, with BMOQ scheduled for August 25th.


----------



## frankyboy1

That must have been from the end of June batch of selections. They made another round of selections end of July I think.


----------



## Gunshark

Hard to imagine they'd have back-to-back selections like that (both June and July) but anything is possible I suppose. In any case, I hear last selections of the year are in November. Any DEO pilot applicants here? Please keep us posted with your progress on the job offers. Thanks. Cheers.


----------



## Mab163

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Hard to imagine they'd have back-to-back selections like that (both June and July) but anything is possible I suppose. In any case, I hear last selections of the year are in November. Any DEO pilot applicants here? Please keep us posted with your progress on the job offers. Thanks. Cheers.



DEO applicant over here. I was merit listed last week but not in time for selections in July. Awaiting the next selections which from what I heard will take place Mid-November. Good luck!


----------



## frankyboy1

I was unofficially told last week that on my file was a note saying "applicant selected DEO" but I don't know if that's for July's round of for November.


----------



## Gunshark

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you're in the fighter stream, there's a practical test involving motorcycle driving beside a runway, locker room standoff with a coworker and a cut-throat game of shirtless beach volleyball.



10/10 ;D


----------



## Gunshark

Good day all. I am currently applying as a DEO pilot (completed aircrew selection in Trenton), and while hoping for great things, I would like to take this time to look further into some scenarios where the unintended happens (as they say, hope for the best, plan for the worst). This is for my own sake, and my parents are also understandably worried, so I am trying to educate and prepare myself and them for different outcomes along the way.

I understand bits and pieces of some of this information may be scattered around these boards, but I thought it would be a good idea to 1. Get the most up-to-date information, and 2. Bring it all together to create a resourceful thread. I hope this will pick up and serve as an informative source not only for myself but also other candidates like me. On to the questions:

What are the more recent flight training timelines? It seems people have all experienced different timelines over the past few years. How is it looking these days? Is the system fixed, or backlogged again?

What are the recent failure rates from all 3 phases of flight training?

What happens to candidates that fail at any phase? Are they free to discharge back into the civilian world? Or are they obligated to stay and serve out the contract? Can they choose to stay willingly and train for a different RCAF trade? Or even an Army or Navy trade?

As pilot medical standards are high, what happens to pilot's career if he is no longer able to meet the medical standard to fly, either during training or service after wings? Can the pilot keep his rank and train for a different trade, e.g. ACSO or something else entirely? Or is he assigned to a desk for the balance of his mandatory service term? If he's further along in his service and a desk job becomes his only option, can he attempt to pursue a promotion to a higher rank, more responsibility, etc? At the end of the day, can he still be of useful service instead of liability?

Age. I am turning 28. Not old but not as young as I could have applied. I've read lots already that age is of no concern career-wise as long as you are still healthy and can still "hack it". (I imagine fighter stream would probably be an exception though, as I understand it's very taxing on the body, and younger bodies tend to be more suited. Not that anyone should bank on becoming a fighter pilot given the odds of it, but just saying.) My concern is more in terms of things like family life and CF career balance around this age. I am single now, and I imagine first several years would be dedicated to intensive training and frequent change of location, landing myself somewhere in mid-thirties with the likelihood of still being single. From experience, any words of advice on career/family balance around this age?

This is all I have so far. Feel free to add more questions and answers. All advice welcome, especially from the experienced pilots. Thank you all very much.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Just saying, you should probably consider us if the whole pilot thing doesn't work out hahahaha

In all honesty though, you should probably stop worrying about all the "what ifs" and just get on with it.  You want to be a pilot then buckle down and do it and stop worrying about failing.


----------



## George Wallace

Try reading this:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/12744/post-53756.html#msg53756

and this:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/103289.0.html


----------



## Journeyman

Gunshark said:
			
		

> This is for my own sake, and my parents are also understandably worried.....


Put their minds at ease; just assure them that however this plays out, you _will_ be moving out of their basement.   :nod:


----------



## Gunshark

Hahah RoyalDrew, nice post. I'm thinking very positively!! But I do think it's responsible and prudent to be informed about negative outcomes as well (ah, my parents would be so proud to hear me say that!).

George, thanks, I've read these before but I'll go over them again to refresh my memory.

Journeyman, I already did move out a couple years ago. Hmm.. Maybe they're worried about me having to move back in!


----------



## dimsum

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Hahah RoyalDrew, nice post. I'm thinking very positively!! But I do think it's responsible and prudent to be informed about negative outcomes as well (ah, my parents would be so proud to hear me say that!).
> 
> George, thanks, I've read these before but I'll go over them again to refresh my memory.
> 
> Journeyman, I already did move out a couple years ago. Hmm.. Maybe they're worried about me having to move back in!



In short, if you wash out of Pilot training you can be remustered, depending on what's available.  No one here can tell you what's definitely going to happen as what trades are available change all the time.


----------



## bradley247

Gunshark said:
			
		

> What are the more recent flight training timelines? It seems people have all experienced different timelines over the past few years. How is it looking these days? Is the system fixed, or backlogged again?



They were long, then short, now people are telling me they are up a bit but still reasonable. I guarantee you it will change again by the time you get there. The real wait now is after flight training.



			
				Gunshark said:
			
		

> What are the recent failure rates from all 3 phases of flight training?



PFT failure rates are all over the board (over the years I've seen everything from 0% to 50+%), but the average failure rates for the rest of training is around 10% for PhII and PhIII. Every course is different though, sometimes everyone passes, sometimes failures are higher. There are no quotas or anything like that to worry about though, if they offer you a job, there is a cockpit for you, and if you meet the standard, you will pass.



			
				Gunshark said:
			
		

> What happens to candidates that fail at any phase? Are they free to discharge back into the civilian world? Or are they obligated to stay and serve out the contract? Can they choose to stay willingly and train for a different RCAF trade? Or even an Army or Navy trade?



As a DEO, you won't owe any obligatory service until you get your wings, so a failure up to that point gives you the option to either switch trades or release. When I went through flight training, the only trades available for failures were artillery and combat engineer, so needless to say those guys got out. Of course it has changed since then, and will change again by the time you get in.



			
				Gunshark said:
			
		

> As pilot medical standards are high, what happens to pilot's career if he is no longer able to meet the medical standard to fly, either during training or service after wings? Can the pilot keep his rank and train for a different trade, e.g. ACSO or something else entirely? Or is he assigned to a desk for the balance of his mandatory service term? If he's further along in his service and a desk job becomes his only option, can he attempt to pursue a promotion to a higher rank, more responsibility, etc? At the end of the day, can he still be of useful service instead of liability?



Depends on the nature of the issue, if you could potentially regain your medical you could work a ground job while on a temporary medical category. As for whether you will let you out of obligatory service if you are permanently unfit to fly, I honestly don't know the answer to that one.


----------



## Ali M

Hey GunShark, 

I have been lurking these forums for about two months now in spite of the thought of becoming a pilot. A little information, I'm 21 years old and in my fourth year of a computer science degree. From what I read on these forums, people who want to become a pilot are usually the ones who have went flying before or had this on their 'to-do' list since they were a child. I'm assuming the people who have shared their stories on here have made their decision on flying early on and have been set on it. Myself, I have been playing with the thought of becoming a pilot for the last four years.

If you don't mind pitching an answer in, what got you into flying? How do you know that you will enjoy the military lifestyle and more so, enjoy flying (assuming you have never controlled an aircraft before)? I'm planning to take a flight lesson or two just to see if I like flying but I'm finding it overwhelmingly difficult to choose a career that I don't know if I would be good at or even enjoy. Watching videos on military life, the pride in being in uniform all excites me but as others have stated on this forum, not everyone is fit for the lifestyle. If I happen to apply and get a spot but ended up not liking it, I would feel terrible I took a spot that someone else may could have taken. 

Another interesting trade is aircraft mechanic (sorry. don't have the exact name with me at the moment). I believe I'm good working with my hands but I have only dealt with building and fixing wooden projects. I have no idea if I'd like to fix aircraft's or more so, if it would be over my head. It's something that looks intriguing but I wouldn't know if it is by reading online. 

Your input would be most valuable since you're an applicant I can relate to. Also, from the questions I have seen you post around, I believe we have the same mindset for questions.

Cheers,

Ali


----------



## Gunshark

Thank you Dimsum and bradley247. Not that it is my intention, but is it possible to voluntarily release from CAF before getting winged, if one happens to firmly dislike it for whatever reason? Again, this is just for information. Thanks.


----------



## Gunshark

> I have been lurking these forums for about two months now in spite of the thought of becoming a pilot. A little information, I'm 21 years old and in my fourth year of a computer science degree. From what I read on these forums, people who want to become a pilot are usually the ones who have went flying before or had this on their 'to-do' list since they were a child. I'm assuming the people who have shared their stories on here have made their decision on flying early on and have been set on it. Myself, I have been playing with the thought of becoming a pilot for the last four years.



I think you are in a good spot to get into it. You are young and about to finish your degree. Your degree is of technical nature which, although not mandatory, may only reflect positively on your application. Yes, from talking to pilots, I'd say there is a fair share of people who dreamed of doing this from birth. It's a popular childhood dream to have, right up there with policeman, fireman, and the like. However, having not dreamed of this from early age does not disqualify you from going into this career by any means. And believe me, you're not alone. My flight instructor (I have a few hours in a Cessna) was an electrician for about 10 years, before he decided to become a pilot and started flying in his late 20s. A couple of guys in my aircrew selection group were around my age (27) with no flying experience, and going for it. Everyone has a different life path and some people don't find their calling until later on in life. It's not uncommon. Sounds like you have been thinking about it for quite some time now, so it seems to be a conscious wish, and not something you decided last night after watching Top Gun.



> If you don't mind pitching an answer in, what got you into flying? How do you know that you will enjoy the military lifestyle and more so, enjoy flying (assuming you have never controlled an aircraft before)? I'm planning to take a flight lesson or two just to see if I like flying but I'm finding it overwhelmingly difficult to choose a career that I don't know if I would be good at or even enjoy. Watching videos on military life, the pride in being in uniform all excites me but as others have stated on this forum, not everyone is fit for the lifestyle. If I happen to apply and get a spot but ended up not liking it, I would feel terrible I took a spot that someone else may could have taken.



I was not happy working at an office and so I started considering a different career path. After thinking of some alternatives, I remembered how I was always drawn to airports and always had great fun flying. Getting on a plane to go somewhere and passing by an open cockpit on the way to my seat, I would aways be intrigued by what happens on the flight deck. I did some research on civilian and military pilot career, and the military choice appealed to me more because it seemed to have more challenge, variety and reward to it. So I decided to go to the recruiting centre and chat about it. Then I applied.

I can't know 100% that I will enjoy the military lifestyle until I try it. But from what I know about the military, e.g. through conversations with serving members (including on this site), I expect/hope I will enjoy it. I like the idea of discipline, challenge, even PT. The idea of camaraderie, and doing your part to bring positive change to people in need. I understand the possible geographical and other limitations of military life but I don't expect they would be a factor for me personally. You'd have to figure that part out for yourself since you know yourself best.

It is definitely a great idea to go up flying a few times if you are not sure if you would enjoy it. I have a few hours and I know by now that I enjoy it. Don't get discouraged though if you can't keep up well on your first or even first several flights. When I first got into an airplane and watched my instructor, I was wondering how anyone can have capacity to do this. Then after a few hours I started doing most of those things myself, and it felt rewarding. The learning curve is steep and you have to do many things at once. But once you start getting it, it feels pretty great.



> Another interesting trade is aircraft mechanic (sorry. don't have the exact name with me at the moment). I believe I'm good working with my hands but I have only dealt with building and fixing wooden projects. I have no idea if I'd like to fix aircraft's or more so, if it would be over my head. It's something that looks intriguing but I wouldn't know if it is by reading online.



I believe there are a few technician (NCM) career options linked to the aircraft, and a couple of engineering (Officer) options. The fact that you're about to have a degree will qualify you for an Officer position, although I'm not sure you'd be able to be an engineering officer without an engineering degree. Most likely not, but that's something to check. But you can be an NCM technician. You can get started reading about jobs on forces.ca, and the salaries are also available online.



> Your input would be most valuable since you're an applicant I can relate to. Also, from the questions I have seen you post around, I believe we have the same mindset for questions.



It's a good idea to educate yourself, but in the end, it's not possible to predict everything. Sometimes you just have to go for it and keep a positive attitude. Let me know if you have any further questions. Welcome to the forum.


----------



## Loachman

Ali M said:
			
		

> I'm planning to take a flight lesson or two just to see if I like flying



While there is certainly nothing wrong with doing this, it is not likely to do anything useful for you either - unless you discover that you are horribly prone to airsickness and barf non-stop from take-off to landing.

Puttering along in a little Cessna is far removed from the sort of thing that one ends up doing as a military Pilot.

I started towards my private pilot licence when I was fourteen, but gave up after a few lessons because it was both boring and expensive. Flying a Kiowa tactically, "skids clear of ground and one-half rotor diameter from vertical obstacles" (our tactical limits), was anything but boring.

You'll never know if you'll like anything about this job until you try it. And don't worry about taking a slot from somebody else who could have used it because you are unsure. The system accounts for that - not everybody makes it through for a variety of reasons, and "that" person will get his/her chance regardless. So long as you apply with honest intent, and do your level best, nobody has valid reason to complain about you.

If we restricted entry to only those completely sure, we'd be sucking for applicants.

You are better off applying, and finding out for certain, than not applying, and wondering/regretting for the rest of your life.


----------



## Gunshark

After you get winged, what is the "standard" career progression? How many flying tours? How many desk tours? What's the timeline like? When can you start flying the desk (as either Captain or Major if you qualify for promotion) if for some reason you tire of flying? What kind of duties do you perform as a non-flying Captain or Major, and do your hours and location become more stable that way? Thanks!


----------



## Loachman

I could write several pages discussing all of the variables that can affect every person's individual career, but I shall not.

Two words, instead, will suffice: It depends.


----------



## Gunshark

I understand, of course.

However, if someone in the know could provide examples of non-flying pilots' duties later down the road, that would be very interesting to know. Thank you.


----------



## Sf2

100's of possibilities - but to name a few:

1)  EA to a Comd
2)  Staff Officer at an Army/Navy/Air Force Unit
3)  Staff Officer at an Army/ Navy/Air Force HQ
4)  Staff Officer at a NATO/UN/Foreign HQ and/or Unit
5)  Embassy Staff
6)  Liaison Officer anywhere in the world

Pretty limitless eh?


----------



## Loachman

Do these questions represent critical factors in a decision-making process?


----------



## Remius

SF2 said:
			
		

> 100's of possibilities - but to name a few:
> 
> 1)  EA to a Comd
> 2)  Staff Officer at an Army/Navy/Air Force Unit
> 3)  Staff Officer at an Army/ Navy/Air Force HQ
> 4)  Staff Officer at a NATO/UN/Foreign HQ and/or Unit
> 5)  Embassy Staff
> 6)  Liaison Officer anywhere in the world
> 
> Pretty limitless eh?



My CO at CFRC was a Pilot as was one of the MCC's.


----------



## Good2Golf

Crantor said:
			
		

> My CO at CFRC was a Pilot as was one of the MCC's.



SF2 meant to include, "Staff Officer at a CAF joint or departmental HQ."


----------



## Gunshark

Loachman said:
			
		

> Do these questions represent critical factors in a decision-making process?



I would not say critical, and all service is service. But it is interesting to have a general sense of what kind of life may await a pilot should he/she no longer fly for whatever reason, but is not yet ready for retirement. Cheers!


----------



## Journeyman

Gunshark said:
			
		

> ......what kind of life may await a pilot should he/she no longer fly for whatever reason......


Intelligence, Public Affairs, Training Development....or if you switch to the Reserves, there's a whole fascinating world of 'Influence Activities.'


Those who lump them together as inhabiting the "Land of the Misfit Toys" are just jealous; don't let them dissuade you.


----------



## Sf2

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> SF2 meant to include, "Staff Officer at a CAF joint or departmental HQ."



Thanks Duey, my college book learnin' words vocab wasn't working today....friday and all.


----------



## Ali M

Thank you so much Gunshark and Loachman! I'll give it my best and see where it goes. I'm much more confident now doing this.

Cheers,

Ali


----------



## Loachman

My pleasure.

Good luck, and work hard. The effort is worth it.


----------



## Togakure

Anyone know how long the wait is for Phase 2 in Moose Jaw these days? I've heard it's been reduced significantly from when it was 2 years.


----------



## Downhiller229

Less than two months if everything goes according to plan. People who finished P1 in September were in P2 at the end of October.


----------



## Melbatoast

Or sooner. Typically enough time to do AMT and land & sea survival between Portage and MJ and to sort out any posting issues you may have.

There are backlogs for Ph1 currently, though, some quite lengthy.


----------



## Mab163

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> Or sooner. Typically enough time to do AMT and land & sea survival between Portage and MJ and to sort out any posting issues you may have.
> 
> There are backlogs for Ph1 currently, though, some quite lengthy.



Do you know how long these backlogs are for PFT?


----------



## Downhiller229

Up to a year wait for some people anecdotaly. It's really case by case, depends on your entry plan and the slots allocated for you in the training system. Some people end up doing sea survival and AMT before Ph1


----------



## Melbatoast

16-18 months observationally. But yes, it's happening just to some DEOs who happened to fall in a bad spot in the cycle. Summers are full up with ROTP and Seneca candidates, while late summer gets RMC and other university grads who didn't do it earlier. That seems like it leaves a lot of course slots for DEOs at other times of year, but the course sizes get smaller with deteriorating weather, only a couple of decent-sized courses before it closes in.


----------



## Mab163

Thanks for the update. I'm starting BMOQ next month  so let's see how things gonna fall.  Just for my information, when will I receive my PFT course date? At the end of BMOQ?


----------



## Downhiller229

I got mine a few weeks after showing up to OJT after BMOQ


----------



## Mab163

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> I got mine a few weeks after showing up to OJT after BMOQ



Sorry for my curiosity but what is your PFT date? Thanks!


----------



## Shadow55

Your BMOQ will be done by the end of April 2015, and you are looking at approx. Oct 2015 for your PFT


----------



## Atominthesky

Hey guys,

Not looking for any information here, just need some actual advice. Like so many others, I want to be a Pilot with the RCAF. My only avenues for entry are ROTP or UTPNCM. I am 28 and do not currently meet the academic requirements to apply under ROTP. I could take online courses to improve my grades and apply later on for 2016-2017, but of course this would take additional time and I am desperate to leave my current job for a greater challenge. This brings me to option two, which is to join as NCM and apply as either a Mature student for ROTP or UTPNCM. Can anyone offer any suggestions or advice on this?


----------



## dimsum

With the caveat to go check out the numerous threads similar to this, I'll say that the UTPNCM route will take a lot longer than the 2 years you're budgeting before you apply as ROTP.


----------



## DAA

Atominthesky said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> Not looking for any information here, just need some actual advice. Like so many others, I want to be a Pilot with the RCAF. My only avenues for entry are ROTP or UTPNCM. I am 28 and do not currently meet the academic requirements to apply under ROTP. I could take online courses to improve my grades and apply later on for 2016-2017, but of course this would take additional time and I am desperate to leave my current job for a greater challenge. This brings me to option two, which is to join as NCM and apply as either a Mature student for ROTP or UTPNCM. Can anyone offer any suggestions or advice on this?



First off, "Mature Student" status does not apply to the ROTP program and is only applicable to those pursuing undergraduate studies.  Second, inorder to apply for UTPNCM, you must hold the substantive rank of "Corporal" or higher, which basically means 4 years of service.  So if you go the NCM route, you "might" get enrolled later this year, which means you probably wouldn't be promoted to Cpl until 2019, so you wouldn't be able to apply for UTPNCM until the 2020 program year.

Which leaves CEOTP/AEAD Pilot as the only possible option.  But then again, this entry plan is also going to require some reasonably good grades.


----------



## M.Hamada

Hey guys I think I figured out something pretty cool, although I already know that some of you know a lot more than what I've gathered with my puny brain.

Last year they eased up on medical standards for pilot candidates. I think there wasn't too many people with 20/20 vision, I'm not sure why people didn't just do laser surgery, isn't being a pilot worth it? Anyways I've talked to some people and even someone in my recruiting office, it seems like there's an apparent shortage of pilots! I know, I know your worried about the safety of Canada right now, and not thinking of how awesome it could be to fly a fighter jet. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but am I the only one who noticed the starting wage being raised on the Canadian forces website? It used to be fifty grand and now its seventy five thousand! If all these doors have opened I don't see why all the rest of you young and ambitious creatures join me into becoming the coolest thing on the planet!

Right now I'm very far from it, I'm waiting another eleven days to do my initial aptitude test, been studying hard for it, grade ten math and brain games, pretty fun actually. I start my last semester of high school on monday so not going to be too much time to study then. Anyways what do you guys think, great opportunity or is it just an abundance of false information gathered by an dumb fantasizing teenager.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Being a fighter pilot is cool however it comes with great responsibilities, one of which is defending Canada (and this is every day through NORAD).  It is also a lot of sacrifices such as time away from home (4-6 months a year these days).  It is far from what you seem to envision.  

As far as salary goes, it starts at 46K during training, a far cry from the 75K you mention.  The basic pay for a DEO 2LT is $3839 a month.

Once you graduate, you will be a Lt, likely incentive 1, which gives you 50K a year ($4220 a month) or maybe Capt (if your training is long enough), which gives you 75K a year ($6286 a month).  Bottom line, you'll wait at least 3 years to see 75K a year.


----------



## Melbatoast

The 20/20 requirement was removed nearly 10 years ago, and laser surgery was allowed in 2008. The RCAF has been chronically short of pilots for even longer, for any number of reasons. It is still extremely challenging and while I don't have the data I would suspect the applicant-to-wings grad ratio is still pretty close to historical. 

And I really doubt "starting salary" for an untrained 2Lt is 75k - in fact, I know it is not http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page


----------



## M.Hamada

Sorry Max for my post being so childish, I guess I was a bit pumped while writing it. I do understand the responsibilities and sacrifices, that aspect of having a role in the military is one thing I seek the most in joining, as all of it comes with a great purpose for life.

I also apologize to both of you for me having falsely made the assumption that my research skills mean anything in terms of reality, it seems that what I found was false in every direction.

So you don't need 20/20 vision but you can't do laser surgery? I don't have 20/20 vision but I see pretty well and I never have to wear glasses, however I wanted to do laser surgery to get the best possible eye vision for the sake of the job, does this mean I can't be a pilot?

Thank you for reading my post in the first place and I would appreciate more than you could imagine if you were to stick around for long enough to answer some of my questions. In the mean time I will look around the net to find some answers as many questions have just appeared in my still puny brain.


----------



## Pwegman

Correct me if im wrong but i think,really not sure about it but  ,  you  have a waiting period of a few months ... maybe a years , if you  had eye surgery... but once again im really not sure about this .


----------



## Melbatoast

M.Hamada said:
			
		

> So you don't need 20/20 vision but you can't do laser surgery? I don't have 20/20 vision but I see pretty well and I never have to wear glasses, however I wanted to do laser surgery to get the best possible eye vision for the sake of the job, does this mean I can't be a pilot?



Yes you can do eye surgery, or be a V2. If the correction you need is very small, you may not be eligible for surgery anyhow depending on the clinic or procedure. Waiting period post-surgery is 6 months.

Lots of guys I've done courses with wear glasses, or have been zapped (like me).


----------



## M.Hamada

Melbatoast, thanks for the info, this changes a lot.

I guess I'm definitely not gonna be sworn by next school year if I do surgery in the summer, maybe I should look into joining after first year of university, or maybe just apply when I'm done as a DEO. I hope that I get to speak with a recruiter at the office during any time during this process, I'm not too sure what options I really have.. I'm starting to think that getting an engineering degree is a waste of time, I could spend less time getting a degree in aviation and even learn how to fly if I do Seneca's program, and then becoming a pilot.. Although like I said, I think I'll wait until I get to speak with the recruiter before making any decisions.

Thanks for those who've read and helped and I hope this in any way helped others.


----------



## 762foryou

Som1 deleted my post.. 24hours ago. No freedom of speech by badass mods?


----------



## Moore

762foryou said:
			
		

> Som1 deleted my post.. 24hours ago. No freedom of speech by badass mods?



Som1? Badass mods? Things like that is what gets your posts removed. Read the rules before posting next time if you actually want help on this site or don't bother posting at all. Nobody here owes you anything so don't start posting like they do.


----------



## Sf2

You've got a lot of blank spaces in your signature.

In other words, lots of hoops to jump through in a very very competitive and challenging trade.  Have a backup plan (ie don't ditch engineering as a waste of time).


----------



## Loachman

762foryou said:
			
		

> Som1 deleted my post.. 24hours ago. No freedom of speech by badass mods?



I do not know which of us "badass mods" deleted your precious post, but I have reviewed it and would have done the same had I seen it first. It was nothing but incomprehensible gibberish, and painful to read.

There is nothing "badass" about us. I am, for example, one of the nicest, helpful, caring, and sensitive people that you could ever hope to meet in the CF. We are here, however, to maintain the standards of this Site. Those standards reflect those of the CF. Either accept that, and comply, or leave. There are plenty of other sites around on which you can spew whatever nonsense that you wish, but we will not suffer fools here.

You will use either proper English or proper French. If neither is your native tongue, we will take that into account, however you will use proper words and not MSN-speak, compose coherent and properly-constructed and properly-punctuated sentences, and correct spelling. There is a spell-checker provided at no extra cost.

Lastly, freedom of speech does not apply here. It is a privately-owned site, and you are a guest. Feel free to start your own if you do not like that.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Not in the mood....bye bye moron.
Bruce
army.ca staff


----------



## Atominthesky

Hey folks,

I'm 28 and have been mulling over my options for my application. I already applied under ROTP for this fall semester, but going to withdraw it to possibly apply again for a later semester/year. My grades are simply not up to snuff to be competitive for this position. There are affordable online courses I can take to improve them, but I need some advice.

The way I see it I have two options: a) Improve my ENG4U and MCF31, reapply under ROTP or b) Take the required courses (65% average minimum) and apply under CEOTP. It appears that CEOTP is not always available as an application option. However recruiters are often citing this as a possible application step. So is it available or not? Forces.ca seems to imply that currently Pilots are only being recruited under DEP and ROTP. Can anyone clarify this?

Thanks


----------



## DAA

Atominthesky said:
			
		

> Hey folks,
> 
> I'm 28 and have been mulling over my options for my application. I already applied under ROTP for this fall semester, but going to withdraw it to possibly apply again for a later semester/year. My grades are simply not up to snuff to be competitive for this position. There are affordable online courses I can take to improve them, but I need some advice.
> 
> The way I see it I have two options: a) Improve my ENG4U and MCF31, reapply under ROTP or b) Take the required courses (65% average minimum) and apply under CEOTP. It appears that CEOTP is not always available as an application option. However recruiters are often citing this as a possible application step. So is it available or not? Forces.ca seems to imply that currently Pilots are only being recruited under DEP and ROTP. Can anyone clarify this?
> 
> Thanks



CEOTP/AEAD Pilot is definitely an available option if you wish to choose that path.


----------



## DaveAB86

Hello Recruiters, 

I am very interested in joining the Air Force as a pilot and applied this past Sunday to the direct entry officer program. I have an advanced diploma (3 years) in Aviation Management from Georgian College and a Canadian Commercial Helicopter Pilot's licence (Bell 206 endorsed).

My first question is will you accept an advanced diploma for the direct entry officer program or does it need to be university? Also, what are the current operational needs for air force pilots either jets, transport or rotor, and how long does it generally take to hear from a recruiter? Many thanks for your response.


----------



## Master Corporal Steven

Good day DaveAB86,

Welcome to the “Ask a CAF Recruiter” section. The members tagged as “CAF Recruiter” are official Canadian Armed Forces recruiters. They will identify themselves with their rank, first name and the Forces.ca avatar. In order to best answer questions, there are some rules that need to be adhered to.

This section is for persons who have questions about joining the Canadian Armed Forces, occupations, different enrolment programs, and prerequisites. Much of the information can be found at Forces.ca, or the Recruiting FAQ and wiki section of this site. Before you ask a question, you should be searching the forum or the Forces.ca website for these answers.

We will not answer questions about technical difficulties with the application process, or the website. We will not answer questions about difficulties contacting your recruiting centre or general inquires with regards to your current application or file. These questions can be asked here: http://forces.ca/en/page/contactus-73


----------



## DAA

DaveAB86 said:
			
		

> Hello Recruiters,
> 
> I am very interested in joining the Air Force as a pilot and applied this past Sunday to the direct entry officer program. I have an advanced diploma (3 years) in Aviation Management from Georgian College and a Canadian Commercial Helicopter Pilot's licence (Bell 206 endorsed).
> 
> My first question is will you accept an advanced diploma for the direct entry officer program or does it need to be university? Also, what are the current operational needs for air force pilots either jets, transport or rotor, and how long does it generally take to hear from a recruiter? Many thanks for your response.



Long story short.....NO, college diploma's will not qualify you to become a Commissioned Officer in the CF.  You must possess the relevant undergraduate degree granted by a recognized Canadian Academic Institution.

http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32#education

With respect to your recently submitted application, it can take 2-3 weeks before you will be contacted.


----------



## DaveAB86

I was worried that might be the case. Looks like I'll have to explore the option of an upgrade from diploma to degree. Thank you for the quick response.


----------



## DAA

DaveAB86 said:
			
		

> I was worried that might be the case. Looks like I'll have to explore the option of an upgrade from diploma to degree. Thank you for the quick response.



Let me help you out ---->  http://www.georgiancollege.ca/admissions/credit-transfer/articulation-and-transfer-agreements-tab

Here are the "preferred" degrees required to apply for DEO Pilot...

Any Bachelor of Engineering degree
•Any Bachelor of Science degree
•Bachelor of Aviation degree
•Bachelor of Arts in any of the following:
o Business Administration
o Military and Strategic Studies
o English
o French
o History
o Political Science
o Economics
o Military Psychology and Leadership

The CF will also accept "Any baccalaureate degree".  You do not need to have the actual degree to apply but as a minimum, you MUST have started your final year of studies before you can apply.

Good luck!


----------



## jeffb

I too went to Georgian College for Aviation Management (2002). After Georgian I went to U of T to do a BA in History. U of T gave me enough transfer credits to write off basically the first year and I finished the remaining 2 years worth in about 6 years working full-time doing other things. Even at that time the quality and availability of online degrees was not there but if I were doing it now, I would probably finish my degree though an online program such as the one offered by Embry-Riddle which has an articulation agreement with Georgian. (As I'm sure you are tracking). Alternatively, check out Athabaska if you want something in Canada. Going through a school that has an articulation agreement rather then applying somewhere will probably result in substantially less courses on your part. 

Best of luck!


----------



## DaveAB86

DAA said:
			
		

> Long story short.....NO, college diploma's will not qualify you to become a Commissioned Officer in the CF.  You must possess the relevant undergraduate degree granted by a recognized Canadian Academic Institution.



As jeffb mentioned (thanks Jeff by the way) my college has an articulation agreement with Embry Riddle in the U.S. Is the "Canadian Academic Institution" stipulation a necessisty or would you conisder and american Bachelor of Sceince?


----------



## DAA

DaveAB86 said:
			
		

> As jeffb mentioned (thanks Jeff by the way) my college has an articulation agreement with Embry Riddle in the U.S. Is the "Canadian Academic Institution" stipulation a necessisty or would you conisder and american Bachelor of Sceince?



The degree must be granted by a recognized Canadian Academic Institution.  Should you obtain the degree outside of Canada, I'm inclined to think that they are going to want an Academic Credential Assessment, which is going to cost you a few bucks.

www.cicic.ca  or www.wes.org


----------



## DaveAB86

DAA said:
			
		

> The degree must be granted by a recognized Canadian Academic Institution.  Should you obtain the degree outside of Canada, I'm inclined to think that they are going to want an Academic Credential Assessment, which is going to cost you a few bucks.
> 
> www.cicic.ca  or www.wes.org
> Sounds like I have my work cut out for me. Thanks DAA


----------



## DAA

DaveAB86 said:
			
		

> Sounds like I have my work cut out for me. Thanks DAA



It's not that simple, yet.  You still need to score sufficiently high enough on the CFAT and TSD to even be considered.  And if you make it past that point, then comes Aircrew Selection.

As a minimum, I'd try and find some way to write the CFAT/TSD before you consider spending money on pursuing a degree for a career that you may not be eligible for right from the start.

It's a tough call.......


----------



## DaveAB86

Also a good point, but considering I've wanted a degree for some time this is a great motivator to finally get it.


----------



## Mike7788

As a reservist Pilot, would I have to be in post-secondary school to be part-time or on my way to completing a relevant degree? Are sufficient high-school marks(University courses with +65 average okay)?


----------



## Melbatoast

You won't be a revervist pilot without first having been a regular force pilot, so you'll need to meet those requirements. In other words, you can't come in off the street to be a pilot in the reserves.


----------



## Martin110

Hello everyone, 

I just came across this forum and I signed up because I applied a few weeks ago to join the RCAF as a pilot (my first choice). My second choice was the airspace controller trade. My post is rather long winded, but I would ask that you please read all of it if you choose to reply. 

To give you all a little background on my self; I am 27 right now and will be turning 28 soon, and I work in R&D at a large pharmaceutical company. I am thinking of a career change because I want to do something meaningful with my life in a way that helps Canada, and I also want to be in a more secure job. So being a pilot really interests me because of these things and because I find the work itself interesting too. I am also a muslim of middle eastern/north african descent but I have been in Canada for most of my life (I moved to Canada from France). 

That said, I am worried about some things which might do me in. Firstly, my university grades were not good, and I majored in chemistry, not engineering, aviation, electronics etc. Also, I don't have actual flying experience and I am also worried that because of my ethnic background and religion, they wont trust me with any serious roles (eg: they will worry I might refuse to operate in Iraq for example, even though I would happily kill ISIS members). 

Various people keep telling me that the above means I basically cannot get in because the competition is very intense and I just dont make the cut. Based on what I have written, is this true ? 

Also, if by some miracle I do get in, I am also hearing that succesfull applicants only get put into a pool, and that you might be pushed into another trade you didn't sign up for AFTER you get inducted into the forces. I have also been told that some people stay stuck in pools like this for up to 10 years. This one really scares the hell out of me. If I am told I have been accepted as a pilot and I leave my company, I will be burning a lot of bridges and I can never really get back into pharma because everyone knows everyone else. So basically, I will have no choice but to do something I don't like or wander the streets according to what I am told. IS this true ? 

If anyone can shed some light on this, and if anyone who has gone through the process could please shed some light on what makes someone competitive and what doesnt, I would really be grateful. I have talked to recruiters already, and quite frankly, I dont trust them because they make the process sound so well defined and easy when I feel it is really competitive.


----------



## GJChorney

If you're looking for a secure job, Pilot isn't it. One bad medical and you're done.


----------



## Gimpy

Martin110 said:
			
		

> If anyone can shed some light on this, and if anyone who has gone through the process could please shed some light on what makes someone competitive and what doesnt, I would really be grateful.



Your competitiveness is determined by many factors such as education level, grades, CFAT and TSD scores, work experience, leadership experience, volunteer experience, interview, etc. Race, religion, and anything in that vein plays zero role in the application process. Nobody here can give you a truthful evaluation of your chances. The only way you can find out is to apply.



			
				Martin110 said:
			
		

> I have talked to recruiters already, and quite frankly, I dont trust them because they make the process sound so well defined and easy when I feel it is really competitive.



The recruiting process is incredibly straightforward and easy. At the same time it is also quite competitive. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Why do you not trust recruiters over various people feeding you misinformation?


----------



## Martin110

Gimpy said:
			
		

> Why do you not trust recruiters over various people feeding you misinformation?



Thanks for the reply Gimpy. I don't trust recruiters because it is their job to get as many people into the force as they can. Isn't that what they are paid to do ? It is no different IMO than a car salesman who will sometimes omit some information to score a sale. In my case, omission could very well make a big dent in my career and personal life. 

Regardless, I am still trying my best to get ready for the next steps. I get that no one can evaluate my chances. What I am more interested in are the "unwritten" requirements for getting in, and the fact that you what you are offered is placement in a pool, not a guarantee for the job you actually think you are getting. I mainly want clarification on these issues.


----------



## Loachman

I would suggest that you take the time to poke around this Site. The Search Function can help you with that, or just read through older threads that appear to be of interest. You may well come across answers before you even think of the associated question.

Nobody cares about your country of origin or religion, although there may well be some delays imposed by additional security screening. What is important is the effort that you put into this and your ability to participate as a team member. Those are the key factors by which we discriminate.

Your background may actually be of value, as we are likely to be involved in that unfortunate part of the world for some time to come and you could potentially be of great help with that.

You will not "join the RCAF". You would join the Canadian Armed Forces. The RCAF is merely an environmental command within the CF.

When I was going through the Pilot training system a few years ago, we were told that one out of eight hundred applicants made it through to Wings Grad. That's probably not changed much. And it's a lot of work.

As for that "one bad medical" thing, there is little truth in that. Some medical problem could occur that cannot be corrected and may ground you completely, but the odds are small. Should it occur, though, but you remain suitable for continued service, then you will be offered the chance of an Occupational Transfer.

Worth it? If I could be seventeen again, I'd happily do it all over again.

Now, start reading those older threads...


----------



## Gimpy

Martin110 said:
			
		

> What I am more interested in are the "unwritten" requirements for getting in, and the fact that you what you are offered is placement in a pool, not a guarantee for the job you actually think you are getting. I mainly want clarification on these issues.



This is one of the things I was referring to by misinformation. There is no such pool. If you are successful as an applicant you will be offered a job in a specific trade. You are guaranteed that trade if you can successfully complete training and maintain the necessary medical requirements. Once you are in the military and your career has progressed, certain things might occur (such as training failures or injuries) that require you to switch trades, but these are best left for others to explain as I am not completely certain of the details.

Here is a search of topics pertaining to Compulsory Occupation Transfers: https://www.google.ca/#q=compulsory+transfer+site:army.ca


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Martin110 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply Gimpy. I don't trust recruiters because it is their job to get as many people into the force as they can. Isn't that what they are paid to do ? It is no different IMO than a car salesman who will sometimes omit some information to score a sale. In my case, omission could very well make a big dent in my career and personal life.



With all the applicants they get I would say it's more their job to 'weed out the wimpies'.


----------



## DAA

Martin110 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I just came across this forum and I signed up because I applied a few weeks ago to join the RCAF as a pilot (my first choice). My second choice was the airspace controller trade. My post is rather long winded, but I would ask that you please read all of it if you choose to reply.
> 
> To give you all a little background on my self; I am 27 right now and will be turning 28 soon, and I work in R&D at a large pharmaceutical company. I am thinking of a career change because I want to do something meaningful with my life in a way that helps Canada, and I also want to be in a more secure job. So being a pilot really interests me because of these things and because I find the work itself interesting too. I am also a muslim of middle eastern/north african descent but I have been in Canada for most of my life (I moved to Canada from France).
> 
> That said, I am worried about some things which might do me in. Firstly, my university grades were not good, and I majored in chemistry, not engineering, aviation, electronics etc. Also, I don't have actual flying experience and I am also worried that because of my ethnic background and religion, they wont trust me with any serious roles (eg: they will worry I might refuse to operate in Iraq for example, even though I would happily kill ISIS members).
> 
> Various people keep telling me that the above means I basically cannot get in because the competition is very intense and I just dont make the cut. Based on what I have written, is this true ?
> 
> Also, if by some miracle I do get in, I am also hearing that succesfull applicants only get put into a pool, and that you might be pushed into another trade you didn't sign up for AFTER you get inducted into the forces. I have also been told that some people stay stuck in pools like this for up to 10 years. This one really scares the hell out of me. If I am told I have been accepted as a pilot and I leave my company, I will be burning a lot of bridges and I can never really get back into pharma because everyone knows everyone else. So basically, I will have no choice but to do something I don't like or wander the streets according to what I am told. IS this true ?
> 
> If anyone can shed some light on this, and if anyone who has gone through the process could please shed some light on what makes someone competitive and what doesnt, I would really be grateful. I have talked to recruiters already, and quite frankly, I dont trust them because they make the process sound so well defined and easy when I feel it is really competitive.



If you already have a University Degree, then your grades really aren't that big an issue, so you can go ahead and apply for Pilot under the "DEO" Entry Plan.

There is no such thing as a pool.  The CAF hires you to perform a specific job right from the start (hopefully one that you are interested in), they don't just slot you into an occupation at their own leisure, recruiters are there to answer your questions and explain the process as best they can.

Yes, the competition is very intense with many steps in the process for Pilot.  The first step after applying is to write the CFAT and TSD, then take it from there.  The better you do at each "step" the greater the likelihood of becoming a Pilot.  If you so happen not to succeed at some point, you can always choose to change your occupation choices to something else of interest or close your application entirely and walk away.

Don't care what MENA country you are originally from, as long as you are already a Canadian Citizen, that's all that counts!!!


----------



## vara787

Hey guys,

I spoke to a recruiter today, but was not able to ask all my questions (because I had to explain him my rather long aviation background and then forgot), but I wanted to ask some things here relating to entering the AF with prior aviation experience, and then also something age related. How does it work for people with prior aviation background, that hold their Air Transport pilot license that flew Boeing 737, E190s and even Gulfstream G550s and that would consider joining the AF at around the age of 37ish. Will people if medically speaking fit, still be able to maybe go for F-18 or do they put people at that age directly into more logistical type airplanes? That makes me really curious. For example, I got over 4000 hrs tt, more than half in Jet aircraft such as B737,E190,G550 and have also aerobatics experience for approx. 200 hours. I know that you can still join up to your 51st birthday, and I am aware of the other threads, but my question here is rather, given the above info, what do you people think could happen in terms of what airplanes I could be flying, if I would apply and if I would get accepted? I am also medically speaking completely fit, perfect eye sight still, tho I do have severe issues at times to be able to read the verification letters below before submitting a post or a reply, have to keep requesting another image a couple of times!!  Thx in advance !


----------



## George Wallace

Seriously.  The best advice is to go back to the Recruiter and ask them.  It may also help to have any documentation on hand to verify your claims, so that they can do a Prior Learning Assessment or whatever else would be necessary to accept your qualifications.  You will have to go through them anyway.


----------



## Loachman

Merged.

Please do some homework before asking further questions, vara787.

There is a Search Function here that cost the Site Owner so much that he hardly has any money left to pay the DS. It irks us a little, then, to see it so sorely under-used.

You will also likely find answers to questions that have not yet occurred to you.


----------



## InBound

Hi, I just applied to the CF for the RCAF after my grandfather (who was in the air force in the early 60's) suggested I check it out. I have been researching this site on various topics and have come across some posts here and there that have enlightened me on the world of military aviation and the wonderful application process, however I still have a few questions that maybe some body will have the answer to:

1) What is the order of events in the application process for a pilot in the RCAF?

2) How long does the application process take?

3) The RCAF is hiring for Pilots right now, will this help my chances of being accepted for this program?

4) Will already having a college diploma help push me closer to the top of the waiting/priority list over someone who may not have any post-secondary education?

5) How hard is it to be accepted into the CEOTP_Pilot program at Seneca once the application process is complete and BMOQ and PFT have been complete?

Again I am brand new to this and any help would be appreciated.


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca

Keep reading older posts, and try the snazzy Search Function. None of your questions appear to be unique. I'll be merging this with an existing thread as soon as I'm on a real computer.

This site is like the CF. We expect people to do their homework. We do not believe in spoonfeeding. We will, however, go to great lengths to assist when truly necessary.

Now, see if you can find the information that you seek before mariomike presents a lengthy list of links. That's a challenge for you. He's pretty quick, and thorough.


----------



## InBound

Thanks for the help. I have learned a lot on this site so far but there are still some details left out. I guess I will just ask the RC when I meet with them next week. Thanks a lot.


----------



## DAA

InBound said:
			
		

> Hi, I just applied to the CF for the RCAF after my grandfather (who was in the air force in the early 60's) suggested I check it out. I have been researching this site on various topics and have come across some posts here and there that have enlightened me on the world of military aviation and the wonderful application process, however I still have a few questions that maybe some body will have the answer to:
> 1) What is the order of events in the application process for a pilot in the RCAF?
> 2) How long does the application process take?
> 3) The RCAF is hiring for Pilots right now, will this help my chances of being accepted for this program?
> 4) Will already having a college diploma help push me closer to the top of the waiting/priority list over someone who may not have any post-secondary education?
> 5) How hard is it to be accepted into the CEOTP_Pilot program at Seneca once the application process is complete and BMOQ and PFT have been complete?
> Again I am brand new to this and any help would be appreciated.



1)  The order of events is pretty much the same for everyone trying to join the CF.  For Pilot applicants, there is also the requirement for Aircrew Selection, which will take place after Step 6 and well before Step 7.     http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100
2)  For Pilots, 6-18 months.
3)  Don't understand what you are trying to ask.  The CF processes and hires Pilot applicants, all year long.
4)  No.  A college diploma will not count for anything.
5)  If you are applying for CEOTP, you are automatically going to Seneca.


----------



## InBound

I appreciate it DAA and Mario Mike. I am very hopeful for this whole thing to work out. I am also still very young (24) with a lot of time for this kind of stuff, just kind of slow you know? Anywho, appreciate the help and will just wait for the call and keep on keepin' on.

 8)


----------



## melancholy223

Hello,

I have a question in regards to Direct Entry into the Canadian Air Force as a Pilot. 
I am currently 19 years old and in my second year of University taking a Computer (kind of science) degree. I am thinking of transferring degrees to something that interests me further, and will be easier for me to complete (in the sense of me loving what we learn and do). I am just curious as to what degrees are accepting in the Canadian Air Force, and what Degrees aren't. I assume a diploma in aviation is not acceptable, nor are degrees in things such as art or journalism. Any information on this would be great, as my dream is to fly fighter jets or helicopters. (I already have my private pilot licence).

I also have a question about my vision, I am colourblind and can not pass the Ishihara colour tests. I am not that severely colour blind, as I can pass the Munsell Hue Test 100% perfect. I also have poor vision for distance, and will later get the lasik eye surgery. What information can you provide to me about these options?

Overall, I am very confused in the degree I want to do, nor do I want to owe the army 7 years to pay for my eduction incase something comes up in my life and I can not fly or etc. I would really appreciate any information that could be given to me to help me make up my mind. 

Also, any tips or information on what I can do in my life during my University years that can help increase my chances of entry or recognition would be much appreciated. (Preferably from someone who has gone through what I am)

Cheers,

Melancholy223


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca

Your questions have all been asked and answered on this Site before. Please make an effort and spend the time to research them rather than expecting others to do so for you.

Once you have made an honest and thorough attempt and still have not found answers, feel free to ask. People will then be more than willing to help.

One of the benefits of conducting your own search is that you will likely find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

Colour blindness will disqualify you from the Pilot occupation.

Merged. Thanks, mariomike.


----------



## jop729

Hello, I was recently offered a position as a Pilot in the RCAF. My mind is swimming, it is something I have always dreamed of, but such a big life decision to make. In my heart I know that I will almost certainly take the offer, but not having the support of my mom and sister have cast a shadow of doubt over me. I am sure feelings like these are part of the reason we are given a decent margin of time to accept the offer.

I have a series of questions that I have withheld asking until now, as I thought that they may hurt my application. I hope to ask these questions now so that I might feel more confident about my decision. I understand that some of these questions are answered elsewhere, but I wish to reaffirm them here and perhaps gain some more insight from different people. Some of these questions don't have factual answers, they seek to gain insight from people who have joined the CAF already.


_How many Holiday Days do we get per year?
How many days of Leave Without Pay do we get per year? Is it common to use days of Leave Without Pay?
Do families have difficulty adjusting to their loved ones joining the CAF?

What are the chances of a Pilot applicant getting their choice of air frame?
What are the chances of a Pilot applicant getting their choice of location?

What are my chances of getting deployed overseas?
What is the mortality rate of Pilots in the RCAF?
What is the mortality rate of people serving in the CAF?

I understand that it's not uncommon for people to Cease Training throughout the training process. What are the chances of CTing on:
Basic Military Officer Qualification?
Primary Flight Training?
Basic Flight Training?

What happens if I have to Cease Training? What do I owe the CAF if I can't continue to pursue my chosen trade?

Finally, is there someone that I can talk to about not having the full support of my family? It's difficult to make such a big decision when it causes distress to the people you love._


Lots of my questions stem from doubt, there are lots of "What are my chances" type questions. But when push comes to shove, I am confident in my abilities and I feel that I have made it this far in the process for a reason.

Thanks in advance for any insight provided.


----------



## Ayrsayle

You are asking these questions in an official recruiters forum, but want opinions from a variety of individuals.  Many would be happy to answer them, but this particular area of the Forums is restricted to answers by recruiters only.  Please post it in another accessable forum if you are wanting more then just a recruiter's response.  (Side note, I've answered many of them in a private message for you).


----------



## George Wallace

44 pages of advice here:

The "So You Want To Be A Pilot" Merged Thread

Read and contribute there.

Topic LOCKED.


----------



## Loachman

Please excuse me for posting through your lock, George. I agree with pointing jop729 to that thread, but I wish to address some questions directly.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> How many Holiday Days do we get per year?



All Federal Statutory Holidays, twenty working days of annual leave which increases to thirty (be very, very patient for the increase to thirty).



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> How many days of Leave Without Pay do we get per year? Is it common to use days of Leave Without Pay?



None and no.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> Do families have difficulty adjusting to their loved ones joining the CAF?



Some do, some don't. I have no idea what the split is. I am reasonably certain that acceptance will happen fairly soon. There is a thread regarding family acceptance somewhere. If you've not found it, look.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> What are the chances of a Pilot applicant getting their choice of air frame?
> What are the chances of a Pilot applicant getting their choice of location?
> What are my chances of getting deployed overseas?



It depends.
It depends.
It depends.

And these questions have been dealt with here, in detail, already.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> What is the mortality rate of Pilots in the RCAF?
> What is the mortality rate of people serving in the CAF?



100%, same as every other human being who has ever lived.

Is this occupation dangerous? Not compared to farmers and lumberjacks. Not compared to driving regularly on multi-lane highways.

There is risk, but it's worth it.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> I understand that it's not uncommon for people to Cease Training throughout the training process. What are the chances of CTing on:
> Basic Military Officer Qualification?
> Primary Flight Training?
> Basic Flight Training?



It happens. So what? Either you will succeed, or you will not. What happens to others is irrelevant. Concentrate on yourself and your performance. Motivation and perseverance are key factors. Work hard and do your best. Co-operate with others.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> What happens if I have to Cease Training? What do I owe the CAF if I can't continue to pursue my chosen trade?



I am not certain what happens in the case of DEOs now. An Occupational Transfer would normally be offered. Release upon request used to be possible. If anybody knows for certain, PM me and I'll post it here.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> Finally, is there someone that I can talk to about not having the full support of my family? It's difficult to make such a big decision when it causes distress to the people you love.



See the thread that I mentioned: "How to get family on board" (http://army.ca/forums/threads/13678.0.html - I found it for you, because I like you). If you truly want to do this, tell them, and tell them how much. You will not likely find any opportunity that matches this anywhere. I have almost forty-three years in. The only regrets that I have are extremely trivial. I've been to places and seen and done stuff that only very few other people have. If I could be seventeen again, I'd do it all over again. Your happiness is your responsibility.



			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> Lots of my questions stem from doubt, there are lots of "What are my chances" type questions. But when push comes to shove, I am confident in my abilities and I feel that I have made it this far in the process for a reason.



What is better, to try and fail, or not try and never know?

You have two choices: Do it, or wonder what could have been for the rest of your life. Your family will still be your family either way.

I know what my choice would be - and was.

(Edit to add link.)


----------



## Eye In The Sky

jop729 said:
			
		

> Hello, I was recently offered a position as a Pilot in the RCAF.



Congrats!



> My mind is swimming, it is something I have always dreamed of, but such a big life decision to make. In my heart I know that I will almost certainly take the offer, but not having the support of my mom and sister have cast a shadow of doubt over me. I am sure feelings like these are part of the reason we are given a decent margin of time to accept the offer.



Here's my  :2c:.  It's okay to take their thoughts into consideration; they are your family.  But make the decision for yourself and what you want.  Many many many people would love to have the opportunity, the chance you have.  Your family may be concerned and all that, but you have to live your own life.  If they don't support you thru the initial phase, trg, time whatever don't worry;  you will have a 2nd family by that time and that family is pretty tight knit as well.  In short, be a man and take your own life by the horns.  That's about as nicely as I can say that.   :nod:

I am not a pilot but I am a GIB-type aircrew NCM member so I get to poke fun at them work with them every day.  I don't know a single one of them that regrets their decision to 'go for it' or a single one of them that doesn't like flying.  I say 'go for it' and good luck.


----------



## mariomike

jop729 said:
			
		

> but not having the support of my mom and sister have cast a shadow of doubt over me.





			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> Do families have difficulty adjusting to their loved ones joining the CAF?





			
				jop729 said:
			
		

> Finally, is there someone that I can talk to about not having the full support of my family?



This may help,

Info for Families 
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/forfamilies-151


----------



## jop729

Thank you everyone for the advice, being grabbed by the shoulders and pushed in the right direction on this website is very helpful.


----------



## Loachman

Good.

You are setting yourself up for a huge challenge. This will be more work that you can imagine. It may seem overwhelming at times.

There is a rich reward at the end. Keep your eyes on that, and keep pushing yourself towards it.

And enjoy the experience.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

jop729 said:
			
		

> Thank you everyone for the advice, being grabbed by the shoulders and pushed in the right direction on this website is very helpful.



When you are Winged, and they ask you what you want to fly on, just remember that the Aurora has coffee, a small oven, a toaster, a bathroom, really cool crews, great TD locations _and_...really cool crews.

 8)


----------



## DAA

jop729 said:
			
		

> Thank you everyone for the advice, being grabbed by the shoulders and pushed in the right direction on this website is very helpful.



Sometimes families don't approve of your career choice.  It could be for personal reasons which are related to a lack of understanding of just what the CF is about, they could be against the military or it could be a cultural perception.   About all you can do is to show them the link below and let them read it!

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/forfamilies-151   (Info for Families)

Good luck!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

mariomike said:
			
		

> I think s/he already saw that.
> Reply #1101



 :   That is a pretty lame post man.  Seriously.


----------



## mariomike

Was seriously not intended to be lame, man, but I removed it anyway.


----------



## Pilot-Wannabe

Hi all, Im new here but I wanted to ask if its worth it for me to pursue a career in the Canadian Forces as a pilot?

Ive been working in IT for 6 years now but Ive always wanted to fly.  I need to get my vision corrected with LASIK (when I first looked at flying this wasnt an option).  Ive gone back to school to finish my degree first so I can do DEO (another couple years for this) which puts me around 30 when I finally apply (from what I read this shouldnt be an issue though I worry about my knees in BMOQ with the running etc.)

I admit I dont really have a plan B - Im interested in flying if I dont make the cut Im not sure what Id do at this point.

Specifically Id love to fly the Hercules or Aurora.  Would I have any way to influence what aircraft I end up flying? 
Does having prior flight experience help at all during the training process?

Also any advice from those who are married?  It's one of the biggest concerns that's on my mind since I could be uprooting my wife away from her family, friends and job to move to wherever I could end up posted.

Thanks


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca.

This has all been answered before, in this thread and others. Please read existing material, and then ask any questions should you require further clarification.

On this Site, as in the CF, you will be expected to do your own work rather than have others spend their valuable time doing something that you can do for yourself. Part of your training will be researching various regulations so that you become familiar with them. 

You may as well get used to it.

Whenever you genuinely need help, though, it should be there.

As for your first question, if that is what you want, then, yes, it is worth it.

Now start reading.


----------



## cdnjarhead

Hi there,

After going through this thread I've determined the following. Please let me know if this info is reasonably accurate as this thread spans nearly a decade.

1) Any bachelor's degree is acceptable for DEO as pilot 
2) Pass rate start to wings is about 21:1
3) Pilots are always in demand, even now
4) Main determining factors are medical and CFAT. Biggest thing is 20/20 vision and strong medical.
5) If you fail along the way (are one of the 20 and not the 1) there are other options available which vary.
6) Expect to be away from home half the year
7) Age not a factor.

My questions that I couldn't find answers for are as follows

1) What aptitudes are relied on most during training? Math? Physics? If one is not strong in these areas should they not bother to apply? 
2) Once you are selected for XYZ aircraft, you basically learn this aircraft in and out, correct? Here, is this mostly mechanical aptitude, memorization of manuals, parts, etc?
3) In terms of having 'the stuff', would 'the stuff' be something like, you're someone who's a great driver, with good reflexes and good motor skills and spatial awareness, and you're good at studying and remembering things (strong ongoing learning background). Or is this really weighted more towards people who are good at Math/Physics, calculations and formulas etc.
4) Besides vision what's something that comes up during medical most people are blindsided by other than heart murmurs? (I don't think I have those) Wouldn't this be determined prior to signing on the dotted line?

Thanks


----------



## SupersonicMax

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 3) Pilots are always in demand, even now



If goes in cycles.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 4) Main determining factors are medical and CFAT. Biggest thing is 20/20 vision and strong medical.



20/20 is not true anymore.  Laser surgery and lower vision category (V2) are acceptable.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 1) What aptitudes are relied on most during training? Math? Physics? If one is not strong in these areas should they not bother to apply?



From my own observation in many years of flying now is that people with a solid science/engineering background tend to do better during flight training than people without this background.  Not because flying is related to science/engineering, but because of study habits developed during school, the ability to understand somewhat abstract concepts and the ability to visualize those concepts.  Again, just my observation/opinion.  Having said that, I had seen arts students do extremely well and engineering students be absolute duds. 



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 2) Once you are selected for XYZ aircraft, you basically learn this aircraft in and out, correct? Here, is this mostly mechanical aptitude, memorization of manuals, parts, etc?



There is always rote learning associated with aircraft.  Whether it is checklists items or aircraft limitations, you will need to know some things cold so that you don't need to whip the book out in a dynamic environment.  On some aircraft, you will also need to learn tactics, aircraft combat systems, weapons systems, threat systems, etc, etc.  There is never a time I can say I stopped learning new things.  Every after 1400+ hours, I still learn new things in the Hornet...  Part of it is due to the aircraft constantly changing and part of it is because there is so much things to know that it is impossible to learn it all (we have 8 tactics book of roughly 1000 pages each).



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 3) In terms of having 'the stuff', would 'the stuff' be something like, you're someone who's a great driver, with good reflexes and good motor skills and spatial awareness, and you're good at studying and remembering things (strong ongoing learning background). Or is this really weighted more towards people who are good at Math/Physics, calculations and formulas etc.



I think being critical of yourself is probably the number one quality you need as well as having a keen interest in learning. If you can recognize that you are not doing something 100% right then you achieved the first step in making it right 100%.  Spacial awareness is definitely something important but this can be developed over time.  To be honest, you have people from very different background and interest spheres doing very well during flight training.   You don't use Math/Physics directly in-flight (at least, not the advanced kinds...) 



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 4) Besides vision what's something that comes up during medical most people are blindsided by other than heart murmurs? (I don't think I have those) Wouldn't this be determined prior to signing on the dotted line?



If you are DEO, you will do Aircrew selection before you join.  If you are ROTP, I think you do it between your 1st and 2nd year at which point, you can still get out without having to pay for the schooling you received.  At least, it was the way it was when I joined 15 years ago.  I am sure it changed and somebody else can chime in.


----------



## cdnjarhead

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> If goes in cycles.
> 
> because of study habits developed during school, the ability to understand somewhat abstract concepts and the ability to visualize those concepts.  Again, just my observation/opinion.
> 
> There is always rote learning associated with aircraft.  Whether it is checklists items or aircraft limitations, you will need to know some things cold so that you don't need to whip the book out in a dynamic environment.
> 
> I think being critical of yourself is probably the number one quality you need as well as having a keen interest in learning. If you can recognize that you are not doing something 100% right then you achieved the first step in making it right 100%.
> 
> If you are DEO, you will do Aircrew selection before you join.



Thanks for this information. Study habits, work habits seem to win the day. I have continued learning throughout adulthood, both technical/software things and languages. I'd tend to say I am good at 'studying', memorizing things too, so this is heartening news.  

I will read up on Aircrew selection. I have to go in and speak to my recruiter soon about updating my trades and I'm fully considering pilot now.

Cheers! ;D


----------



## Pilot-Wannabe

Sort of a follow up question in regards to what cdnjarhead mentioned.

Is a heart murmur an automatic disqualification from aircrew selection?  Ive searched around and found some answers that say yes and others that say its not and they assess on a case by case basis.


----------



## George Wallace

Pilot-Wannabe said:
			
		

> ........... they assess on a case by case basis.



Exactly.  The medical staff will make that decision, not anyone on this site.


----------



## Loachman

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 1) What aptitudes are relied on most during training? Math? Physics?



Motivation, drive, determination to succeed, effort. I've never seen anybody cruise through the process. It's work, but rewarding work. Motivation, drive, determination to succeed, and effort are not guarantors of success - inability to learn at the rate required, lack of co-ordination, bad luck, and a host of other things can kill one's chances - but they are absolutely essential. The only math that I've ever used in a cockpit was taught in the English equivalent of early grade school. I've never had to apply anything learned in a physics class.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> If one is not strong in these areas should they not bother to apply?



Apply, regardless, presuming that you meet or exceed the enrollment standard.

If you apply, you may succeed or you may not.

If you do not apply, you will not succeed and will most likely carry a regret for ever.

Decide what you want. Want it enough to work hard enough. Work hard enough to succeed.

And while you are working hard, make sure that you enjoy doing so, despite the pressures. If you are not enjoying yourself, think hard about your choices.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 2) Once you are selected for XYZ aircraft, you basically learn this aircraft in and out, correct? Here, is this mostly mechanical aptitude, memorization of manuals, parts, etc?



One needs to know all of the systems inside and out, specifically what can go wrong and why, and how to correct or compensate for that. One needs to know all of the checks and procedures. One needs to know all of the performance factors and limitations. One needs to know all of the applicable tactics. One needs to know ... everything possible.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 3) In terms of having 'the stuff', would 'the stuff' be something like, you're someone who's a great driver, with good reflexes and good motor skills and spatial awareness, and you're good at studying and remembering things (strong ongoing learning background). Or is this really weighted more towards people who are good at Math/Physics, calculations and formulas etc.



More or less. And the ability to remain calm and perform under stressful situations, sometimes dealing with multiple unwanted things happening simultaneously. We were given a page of simple formulae for calculation such things as bank angles to maintain standard-rate turns at various airspeeds in Moose Jaw. I cannot recall ever using any of those afterwards, because one learns to judge many of these things instinctively (at least on Helicopters).



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> 4) Besides vision what's something that comes up during medical most people are blindsided by other than heart murmurs? (I don't think I have those) Wouldn't this be determined prior to signing on the dotted line?



The medical testing is pretty thorough, but it's not generally good at predicting things that may develop in the future, near or far.

In summary, simply put, some people can and some people cannot.

Of the first group, most work hard and succeed, a small number do not work hard enough and fail (no excuse whatsoever in those cases), and another small number work hard and get unlucky.

Of that last sub-group, some contribute to their bad luck by accepting unworkable instructor/student parings, are over- or under-confident or display other poor attitudes, party a little too much one or two nights before a test, and/or do not seek help when they should/before it's too late.


----------



## Downhiller229

Having recently been put through the training system I would agree with Loachman's perspective. I tried a balanced approach to my training where I put the time and effort I thought was required but also allowed a lot of time to relax and not thing/talk about flying. I found it very useful to be able to disconnect. Especially when experiencing setbacks and delays. Some of the most studious and dedicated students I met ended up doing very poorly because of their attitude and not being able to let go. 

Honestly the right attributes to succeed? I think being a balanced individual and knowing how to analyze your own performance after setbacks and even good days. It is definitely a grind and you need to be ready to roll with the punches. 

I think you should apply even if it seems far from attainable, it's a long road but at the end of the day very worth it. Good luck


----------



## cdnjarhead

Loachman thanks very much for the detailed response. After reading it I feel more confident I have what it takes to be a pilot. From what you state a lot of this seems like a function of hard work and intuition, I feel confident in both areas. Ultimately that's not for me to decide but it's a good start point. Of course, as you mention there are unlucky factors but as you also point out a lot of those can be mitigated/dealt with along the way i.e. being upfront things that aren't working for you and alerting people to issues before they snowball. I will have to snoop around the forums some more and go back to the CAF page and look for the aircraft that interest me most. I'm a truck guy so I'm thinking something big like a transport plane. Helicopters also interest me though.

Downhiller229 congrats on recently having gone through the training, you're standing at the top of tall hill I'm considering climbing. I like your comment about disconnecting. I think that sounds great, with all the mechanics and factors involved it sounds reasonable that you've gotta stay that much more clinical and detached. Through my various hobbies I've found analyzing performance and what's happening from the third person grants you the best solutions.

Think my biggest challenge will be getting my wife on board. Not literally she loves planes hah, but the prospect of time away already has her peeved. I'll talk her into it a bit more, read up some more then make the big decision on whether to change my trade choice. 

Thanks for all the input fellas.


----------



## mariomike

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> Think my biggest challenge will be getting my wife on board.



This may help,

How to get family on board  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/13678.450


----------



## cdnjarhead

mariomike said:
			
		

> This may help,
> 
> How to get family on board
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/13678.450



Thanks for that mariomike. Reading that I see the biggest thing in the end of it all is making sure the choice is your own and owning that choice. I have no issue there. I think my wife would be supportive, for her it's the time away from home that is required of pilots. I'd just have to make darn sure if I was to put my career at #1 that she and rugrats were #1.5 at all times, with everything after that being #2 if you get what I mean. I already get into trouble for playing with the dog before going to see her when I get home but I tell her that's not my fault the dog makes the effort to run to the door!


----------



## mariomike

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> Thanks for that mariomike.



You are welcome. Good luck.


----------



## Loachman

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> I tried a balanced approach to my training where I put the time and effort I thought was required but also allowed a lot of time to relax and not thing/talk about flying.



Obsession is never good, or healthy.

It is hard to explain to anybody how much work the first month, purely ground school, in Moose Jaw was. On Friday evenings we all got therapeutically hammered in the Mess, spent Saturdays doing normal life things, and then hit the books again all day on Sunday. There was a bit of a let-up following that month - not a lot, but noticeable and welcome - but there was still a lot of pressure to perform.



			
				Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> Especially when experiencing setbacks and delays.



And there will be some. We had one guy who suffered severely from testitis - he flew well during dual lessons but froze during tests. This only became worse after failing the first one, and he did not last long. Another fellow passed his Initial Clearhood Test (ICHT), partialled his Nav Test but passed the re-ride, then failed his first Instrument test. He passed the resultant re-ride, but failed his Instrument Rating Test. He was sure that he was gone at that point, but got another re-ride as he was a solid guy, always knew more than required, performed well in the cockpit, and made simple, easy-to-make but fatal errors on tests - some things can be relatively minor in magnitude but absolutely critical. Nobody, back then, and probably not now either, got as many chances. He passed the re-rides because he learned his lessons and, despite increased pressure, managed to relax himself enough to do what he was there to do. Unfortunately, he failed the IRT re-ride by blowing through an altitude restriction in his clearance on climb-out from Moose Jaw and that was the end.



			
				Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> knowing how to analyze your own performance after setbacks and even good days.



That is important, and the same thing is done during every mission debrief: an honest and open appraisal of what we did right, and what we did wrong/could improve upon and how.

There is a metric buttload of mistakes that can be made. It's a tad wasteful to make the same one twice.



			
				Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> it's a long road but at the end of the day very worth it.



It is and it is.

Excellent advice.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> Loachman thanks very much for the detailed response.



My pleasure.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> I will have to snoop around the forums some more and go back to the CAF page and look for the aircraft that interest me most. I'm a truck guy so I'm thinking something big like a transport plane. Helicopters also interest me though.



There is no need to decide until well into the Moose Jaw phase.



			
				cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> the prospect of time away already has her peeved.



There will be a bunch of that, yes, but there will be other postings where you would not be away much at all.


----------



## cdnjarhead

Loachman said:
			
		

> There will be a bunch of that, yes, but there will be other postings where you would not be away much at all.



Understood about not having to choose right away. Makes more sense actually.

As for these postings you speak of, I am not looking for anything cushy and I'd like to pull my weight, but that being said, I would definitely love a posting that allows me to both pull my weight and be with the family more. Are these postings difficult to land (no pun intended) or do they come with time?


----------



## trampbike

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> I would definitely love a posting that allows me to both pull my weight and be with the family more.


Sounds like SAR would be a proper fit.

As Loachman wrote, this is way down the line for you, and when the times come to be selected for one of the 3 streams, you have very little control over anything. 
You could top your course, ask for helicopters, and end up flying fighters. 
You could want multis and get helos, while other guys in your class asked for helos and got multis. 
In the end though, there isn't a single bad flying job in the CF.


----------



## cdnjarhead

SAR= Search and Rescue?

Actually that sounds great, one of the reasons I initially thought to join the CAF was because of an interest in humanitarian missions and helping people (although I am not against blowing up the bad guys). I will ask about this. Understood about getting the post you get.


----------



## mariomike

cdnjarhead said:
			
		

> SAR= Search and Rescue?



Yes.


----------



## Loachman

trampbike said:
			
		

> You could top your course, ask for helicopters, and end up flying fighters.



Really? It used to be an absolute guarantee that the top student got his/her choice. Occasionally, posting blocks were changed in order to permit that to happen should the desired aircraft posting not appear in the original version of the block. Reneging on that promise was not acceptable, right to the top of Air Command. It still is not acceptable, in my mind.



			
				trampbike said:
			
		

> You could want multis and get helos, while other guys in your class asked for helos and got multis.



That was once rare, too.

I traded postings with a fellow on my Basic Helicopter Course. He initially got Kiowas in Petawawa and I got Kiowas in Edmonton. There was no problem at all making the switch, and we were both much happier.

I actually found out where I was really going from the barmaid in the Chateau Room of the Mess in Moose Jaw, three days before I received official confirmation of the change.



			
				trampbike said:
			
		

> In the end though, there isn't a single bad flying job in the CF.



There certainly used to be.

Instructing on Musketeers in Portage was the least desireable flying posting in the whole CF. All of the pipeliners were RMC grads, and they were not keen. My instructor was an ex-Tracker Pilot, much to my benefit.

I'd consider any non-Tac Hel flying job to be purely terrible.


----------



## trampbike

Loachman said:
			
		

> Really? It used to be an absolute guarantee that the top student got his/her choice.


Top students always get their 1st choice, that is still a thing at the Big 2... but you know what they say about rules and exceptions (top guy puts helos first, jets third, gets jets)!



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> I'd consider any non-Tac Hel flying job to be purely terrible


I thought so too when I got to Moose Jaw for ph2, still kind of thought that leaving Moose Jaw after ph3, now I can kind of see the greatness of other types of flying  
Kind of


----------



## Loachman

The top student one or two courses ahead of me wanted Hercs. There were none in the block. They tried to push him to fighters, because "everybody wants to be a fighter pilot". He refused, several times, and insisted that they keep their promise and give him his first choice. Eventually, they caved and found him a Herc slot.


----------



## jeffreycao1998

Hi, I'm currently in grade 12 and am going to write my aptitude test on the 10th. I was just wondering how competitive are the CEOTP spots really. I've been hearing a lot of stories on different forums of how only 40% of the original pass the course and that it's really hard to get selected for this specific program. However my friend who's had a 70-80 average all throughout high school and got in and then failed out of the seneca aviation program had the choice to become a pilot for the CAF. So really how competitive is this program to get into right now?


----------



## bradley247

Being accepted as a pilot, no matter what entry plan, is very competitive. I'm not aware of anyone failing yet (and certainly not 60%), maybe they were talking about aircrew selection, which has a 30-40% pass rate. That has nothing to do with Seneca though, it's part of the recruitment process, and all pilot applicants go through it.


----------



## jeffreycao1998

So what happens if you fail aircrew selection? Will you have to change trades/leave or will you have more chances to become a pilot?


----------



## PuckChaser

jeffreycao1998 said:
			
		

> So what happens if you fail aircrew selection? Will you have to change trades/leave or will you have more chances to become a pilot?



If you fail aircrew you don't get pilot, and you don't get Seneca. They'll ask if you want any other trades, and if you don't, see you later, thanks for applying.


----------



## bradley247

Aircrew selection is done prior to joining, if you fail, your application for pilot doesn't continue (you can still continue the application for your other trade choices). You can attempt aircrew selection up to 3 times, and each must be at least 1 year apart.


----------



## JackMerridrew

Im conditionally excepted into Seneca through CEOTP and my average was exactly 80%. As long as you have calculus and it's above 75% you should be fine AFAIK. Just focus on your CFAT, *ALOT* of my highschool friends have failed it because they were too cocky to review.


----------



## jeffreycao1998

I currently have a 86% average and started reviewing about a week ago. I'm most afraid of this aircrew selection test which I just recently found out about. How can I prepare for this test because 60-70% failure rate is reallly high and quite frankly I'm not sure what else I'd like to be doing if I were to fail.


----------



## mariomike

jeffreycao1998 said:
			
		

> I'm most afraid of this aircrew selection test which I just recently found out about. How can I prepare for this test < snip >



This may help,

Aircrew Selection/ACS (Merged)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/70257.500.html

Canadian Forces Selection Testing Candidate Guide
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/cf-aircrew-selection-centre/candidate-guide.page
"This guide provides information on the Aircrew Selection Tests administered to all Pilot (PLT), Aerospace Control (AEC), and Air Combat Systems Officer (ACSO)  candidates."


----------



## JackMerridrew

jeffreycao1998 said:
			
		

> I currently have a 86% average and started reviewing about a week ago. I'm most afraid of this aircrew selection test which I just recently found out about. How can I prepare for this test because 60-70% failure rate is reallly high and quite frankly I'm not sure what else I'd like to be doing if I were to fail.



Got ya fam.

http://www.speeddistancetime.info/

http://www.kongregate.com/games/icylime/multitask

https://nrich.maths.org/1235

https://www.fibonicci.com/spatial-reasoning/airforce-pilot-test/

http://en.lichess.org/

For the first link, from what I gather if you score 10/10 on the V=D/T with an average of ~10s you're in a decent spot. ~25s for Fuel Calculations. 

If you can afford, this was highly recommended to me by someone that passed CFASC. I purchased it and its a nifty little program to help you sharpen up. 

http://www.cockpitweb.com/pilottest.html


----------



## jeffreycao1998

Okay I did the distance/time questions 10/10 but it took me 20 seconds each just with mental math. The fuel consumption questions too me almost twice as long to do.


----------



## jeffreycao1998

JackMerridrew said:
			
		

> Im conditionally excepted into Seneca through CEOTP and my average was exactly 80%. As long as you have calculus and it's above 75% you should be fine AFAIK. Just focus on your CFAT, *ALOT* of my highschool friends have failed it because they were too cocky to review.


Wait so you did your ACS already right? Also arn't the minimum requirements just to have all the needed courses at higher than 65%?


----------



## mariomike

JackMerridrew said:
			
		

> Just focus on yor CFAT, *ALOT* of my highschool friends have failed it because they were too cocky to review.





			
				jeffreycao1998 said:
			
		

> Okay I did the distance/time questions 10/10 but it took me 20 seconds each just with mental math. The fuel consumption questions too me almost twice as long to do.



If you wish to focus on your CFAT,

Do I have to be good at math to be a pilot? 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/107157.0

aptitude mathematics  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/121196.0

Mathematics applying/within the Forces.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/96404.0

?MATH?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/109763.0

"what type of math is on the aptitude test?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106898.0

"Math questions on the test":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30895.0/nowap.html

"CFAT Math Problem Solving":  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91357.0

"Not the best at math..":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107441.0

"CFAT Math + other question":  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/80466.0

"How does one 'relearn' math?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26449.0

"I suck at math (CFAT worries)":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/65081.0

"If you need help in Math for the CFAT":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/60947.0/nowap.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test (CFAT) FAQ  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/23193.400

etc...


----------



## JackMerridrew

jeffreycao1998 said:
			
		

> Wait so you did your ACS already right? Also arn't the minimum requirements just to have all the needed courses at higher than 65%?



Unfortunately I haven't had my all expenses paid trip to Trenton and Toronto for CFASC yet. After the interview (or CFAT if you're lucky) the recruiter will forward your highschool marks to Seneca and they will accept or decline you as a student based on your marks. I was academically accepted to the program, however; I still need to be accepted by the RCAF. 



			
				jeffreycao1998 said:
			
		

> Okay I did the distance/time questions 10/10 but it took me 20 seconds each just with mental math. The fuel consumption questions too me almost twice as long to do.



Remember, for V=D/T, these need to be done in your head. You will not be given a pen and paper for CFASC. I promise you, you have a long time to wait if you pass your CFAT/Interview, so you have lots of time to improve.


----------



## jeffreycao1998

JackMerridrew said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I haven't had my all expenses paid trip to Trenton and Toronto for CFASC yet. After the interview (or CFAT if you're lucky) the recruiter will forward your highschool marks to Seneca and they will accept or decline you as a student based on your marks. I was academically accepted to the program, however; I still need to be accepted by the RCAF.
> 
> Remember, for V=D/T, these need to be done in your head. You will not be given a pen and paper for CFASC. I promise you, you have a long time to wait if you pass your CFAT/Interview, so you have lots of time to improve.



I've been reviewing the grade 10 math stuff for my CFAT and based on my what my friends say, I think I'll do pretty good on it. Please keep me updated on how your CFASC goes because I really want to become an air force pilot. I do have a backup but I'd much rather fly.


----------



## Kamm

Hi all,

First off, I just wanted to say that I'm brand new to the forum. First post, actually. 
I sure am glad to have found this forum, it's been very insightful so far.

I have a question that I could not really find the answer to anywhere online. I'll keep it short, as it might not be totally appropriate for this particular thread.

Last night I had called the recruitment office in Hamilton (I currently study in Hamilton), to ask them about the logistic of applying as a DEO  whilst still completing my undergrad in engineering. I was informed that my application will be 'held' until I am graduated, and that I cannot proceed with the preliminary CFAT and medical until then... is this the way it works now? I have a buddy currently in basic, who was able to write his aptitude test and everything, while still completing his final year. This news bummed me out, because it effectively prolongs my process by another 5 months or so.  

Kam


----------



## Good2Golf

Maybe this is secretly step one of the CFAT...  

"Answer the following:  Do I trust what the CAF recruiter told me, or believe that my friend's past experience is more applicable to my situation?"

I know what my answer would be.

 :2c:

G2G


----------



## Kamm

Lol I know, I thought the same thing, G2G. 
My reservations come from the fact that when I asked her the question, she didn't know and put me on hold for a few minutes. I was just wondering if anybody has found themselves in my situation before. 

Kam


----------



## Good2Golf

Kam, that' style recruiter's version of "measure twice, cut once," ie. Get it right the first time.  There are so many policies and directives to keep track of, that it is often necessary to confirm that nothing had changed, even if they thought they knew the answer "for sure." :nod:

Good luck.

Cheers
G2G


----------



## reinvented

Kamm, if you are sure you want to be a pilot in the CF then just apply now (today!). If you do that at least the CFRC has the option to start processing it right away if they choose to - you have nothing to lose. If you don't then you don't give them, and thus yourself, that option. I applied for DEO pilot last year (December 2014) finishing up the last year of my degree and I thought I was on top of my stuff getting a "head start". I wish I had applied in September or even earlier if I could have. I've been in the process for 12 months now (7 months since graduation) and I was just merit listed a couple days ago. I probably still have a good 3-4 months ahead of me until I leave for basic. And for the record, from my own application experience, they processed my application before I graduated. I wrote the CFAT in February but didn't get scheduled for the interview and medical until June. Take it for what it's worth, and of course your mileage may vary.


----------



## Zoomie

FWIW - some DEO candidates are processed and accepted with still a year left on their degree.  In some cases, the CF picks up the bill for the final year too.  YMMV


----------



## Kamm

Thanks a lot for the replies  
I'll take that advice in line with my gut feeling and send my app through now. We'll see what comes of it.

Cheers!


----------



## bradley247

Ditch said:
			
		

> FWIW - some DEO candidates are processed and accepted with still a year left on their degree.  In some cases, the CF picks up the bill for the final year too.  YMMV



Is that something new (or very old and not done anymore)? They will accept your application in your final year with the caveat that you must have a degree before you can get an offer (that's what I did), but I've certainly never heard of the CF giving a DEO offer before the applicant has a degree, let alone picking up the tuition bill. You can apply as ROTP with 2 years of school remaining and they will pick up the tab, are you sure that's not what you are thinking of?


----------



## trampbike

bradley247 said:
			
		

> You can apply as ROTP with 2 years of school remaining and they will pick up the tab, are you sure that's not what you are thinking of?


Most likely yeah!
I had a year and a half left to finish my degree, and they accepted me as ROTP, but they wouldn't take it as DEO.


----------



## bruyns

To echo what some others have said recently there is a lot of processing time, I am leaving for BMOQ on Jan 16th and applied in March 2014 as a DEO pilot. I didn't get a chance to go to ACS in Trenton until February of this year and was getting very discouraged since my Barrie recruiting office didn't provide me any updates when I called or emailed and it was always we will let you know when the time comes type of responses. Just getting the original background checks done after applying took months for whatever reason. On my ACS in Trenton there were maybe 10 RMC students trying to switch trades that only could qualify for ACSO or ACE so after only 3 of the 27 people on the course left for Toronto as potential pilots I felt a sense of accomplishment and was optimistic.

After I passed ACS I was given my offer on July 7th so it has been a long wait for BMOQ. I also had my medical update in September since a year had passed and after that was done I sent an email to recruiting late November to make sure there was nothing else they needed and everything was up to date. I was assured everything was good to go for January and then early December I get mail telling me that I needed to do urinalysis, blood work, ECG and vision test. I spoke with the person who sent it and was told the person who did my updated medical failed to tell me that I had to have those tests done again. I assumed having passed the medical in Toronto in February and having the update done in September I was cleared medically and felt I had done my due diligence making sure my file was up to date. 

A few days ago I received the call that I am cleared medically once again and will have my swearing in ceremony on January 7th. All in all the nearly two year long process has been stressful with not a lot of communication, but I am extremely thankful that I have met all the standards to be chosen and look forward to the journey ahead of me.


----------



## JackMerridrew

Can someone confirm something for me? If I'm chosen for CEOTP - Pilot, will I be a 2Lt making 2Lt pay once I graduate from BMOQ?

 I was under the impression I stayed as an Officer Cadet throughout training. Thanks!


----------



## George Wallace

Answered here:  http://army.ca/forums/threads/105937/post-1409200.html#msg1409200


----------



## kolkim

Got a question about the 3 types of pilots.
Out of Jet, Multi engine, and Helo, which has the best job in the criteria of job satisfaction, work hours, flying hours, and deployments? 

I would assume Jet has the most satisfaction with the least flying time, best hours?, most paperwork, average deployments.. But I have zero idea.
Once again, no idea but my guess is that Helo has awesome satisfaction, medium flying time, ok hours, most deployments? 
and Multi engine has kind of a boring job with the most flying time, longest hours, and least deployments.


----------



## Loachman

That depends upon what _*you*_ like/don't like and want to do/don't want to do.

I think that anything except Tac Hel sucks and I would not want to do it. Others, for reasons that completely baffle me, prefer other things.

And there are subsets in each of those three basic types, and your breakdown is vague - there are multi-engined jets, like CC150 and CC177. CF188 is also multi-engined.

I like helicopters, but have less than zero interested in MH or SAR for example.

As for flying time, there's quality and quantity. I prefer an hour of dodging cows and trees to ten of watching an autopilot fly.

There are too many variables to answer your question.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

kolkim said:
			
		

> and Multi engine has kind of a boring job with the most flying time, longest hours, and least deployments.



I think you'd be wrong in that assumption.  SAR is mutli, so is LRP.  SAR is operationally tuned 24/7.  

Auroras?  Nothing is boring at 100 feet off the deck doing 250kts over a nice sea state.  LRP drivers deploy more than you see in the news, including things like OP IMPACT.  I think anyone who could see LRP-MH coop in action wouldn't find it boring.  And, we in the LRP community do a whole variety of mission types.  Not all of it is 'ohhhh!  ahhhh!' and there is the expected Officer leadership and admin functions to perform as well, but you will get that in any of the streams.  LRP does SAR stuff to, just differently than SAR Sqns.

Maybe the Transport side seems boring to some people, but those folks are busy and going places all the time.

Food for thought.


----------



## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think you'd be wrong in that assumption.  SAR is mutli, so is LRP.  SAR is operationally tuned 24/7.
> ...........
> Maybe the Transport side seems boring to some people, but those folks are busy and going places all the time.
> 
> Food for thought.



Well said.  I too think that their statement was one done in ignorance of what any of our pilots have to deal with.

I am sure that our Transport pilots and crews flying into some of the worse shyte holes on the planet, sometimes 'under the guns' of an enemy faction, are not bored to death with their jobs.


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:
			
		

> There are too many variables to answer your question.



^ This.

Tell me, what's the best kind of car to drive?


There is far more enjoyment or disappointment to be experienced based on an individual's preferences, than the characteristics of various fleets are going to influence.

Given the success rate from recruitment to final rating on an operational aircraft, one might perhaps be satisfied just to make it through the process. :nod:

:2c:

G2G


----------



## mariomike

kolkim said:
			
		

> Out of Jet, Multi engine, and Helo, which has the best job in the criteria of job satisfaction, work hours, flying hours, and deployments?



To add to the opinions in this super-thread, you may also find these other discussions of interest,

Do you have a choice between fighter/helo/multi ???  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/73253.0

Can you choose what kind of aircraft you'd like to be trained in/fly full time?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/12744.990;wap2

Uncertain about going either multi or helo  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/69059.0

How is a Pilots aircraft chosen?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/120167.0

New guy, introduction and a question or two.  


			
				inferno said:
			
		

> I read on here somewhere I think that most pilots recently have been biased towards helicopters/multi-engine, is this true?



Airframe selection after BFT  


			
				MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> Which airframes needs most pilots right now?
> 
> Which option do most ask for?
> 
> I am interested in Multi Engine.



Choices After BFT  


			
				Looking4Higher said:
			
		

> I understand that a pilot candidate after completion of BFT has the choice or is selected to one of three streams (RW, Multi, Fast Jet).



more questions on how does it work  


			
				weiss said:
			
		

> I know it has been discussed on some boards here how new pilots get into one of the category - jets, multi or helicopters.



Switching from FW to RW and vice-versa  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/120572.0


			
				Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> Is it easier to transfer from multi platform to helo platform vs vice versa? I would assume since the number of helos is double than that of multis that would be the case?



etc...

Edit to add



			
				kolkim said:
			
		

> Out of Jet, Multi engine, and Helo, which has the best job in the criteria of job satisfaction, work hours, flying hours, and deployments?



From The "So You Want To Be A Pilot" Merged Thread,

helo multi or fighter
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22The+%22So+You+Want+To+Be+A+Pilot%22+Merged+Thread%22+helo+multi&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=_5ahVpThFKmC8Qf28LyIDg&gws_rd=ssl


----------



## trampbike

kolkim said:
			
		

> Got a question about the 3 types of pilots.
> Out of Jet, Multi engine, and Helo, which has the best job in the criteria of job satisfaction, work hours, flying hours, and deployments?


To add to all the relevant replies you got: even if you think you know what you'll like, it's very possible you're completely off. 

Throughout phase I and phase II, all I wanted was to fly TAC HEL. I put helos first on my list, and jets third. They sent me ph3 Harvard, which is the way towards jets. Even during and after completion of phase III, I was still asking to be sent on the helo course. They kept me in the jets stream. I started flying a jet, and I still hoped I'd be sent to helos at some point. As soon as I got into advanced formation and the first few "fights", I was completely hooked, and now I'm extremely glad some people with much more experience and judgement than me sent me jets and kept me there somewhat against my will!

A buddy of mine was dead set on jets thoughout ph1 and ph2. He was sent helos. Now he's very glad it turned out that way. 

There aren't any truly bad flying jobs in the CF, only bad attitudes! With the right mindset, you'll very likely end up enjoying what you're doing, no matter what.

Cheers,
Oli


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Tell me, what's the best kind of car to drive?



The one that is paid for and still on the road?    8)


----------



## Good2Golf

EITS: 1) touché, but 2) you forgot "and has reasonable O&M costs..."



Cheers
G2G


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Maybe on purpose, as my wife questions that exact aspect of mine!  ;D


----------



## OConnor

bradley247 said:
			
		

> Aircrew selection is done prior to joining, if you fail, your application for pilot doesn't continue (you can still continue the application for your other trade choices). You can attempt aircrew selection up to 3 times, and each must be at least 1 year apart.



Hey everyone, could someone please clarify something for me? I've been working on my prerequisites for the CEOTP program, (Grade 12 Advanced Functions, Calculus, Physics, etc.) and so far my marks are great. My only concern this entire time has been the Aircrew Selection process. I've had several talks with recruiting officers at the Hamilton Recruiting Centre. I intend to apply for Pilot. I have been under the impression that if I fail the Aircrew Selection for the Pilot position, then I'll have three more stabs at it, with a year separating each of them. However, this comment above has made me think twice. Am I misunderstanding something, or is it the case that if you fail Pilot once that you can only retry for other trades? I can't see myself doing anything else with my life besides flying for the CAF. Can someone please give me a solid answer to this? 

Thanks in advance.
Quinn


----------



## speargun

I am currently going through the application process for the ROTP and one of my trade choices is to be a Pilot.  From what I have researched and looked up, I will have to know how to describe what being a pilot entails, in my own words. On Forces.ca it gives you two small paragraphs on what being a pilot is about, but I don't know if there is more that should be elaborated in my interview, or if they just want basic point form facts for me to rhyme off to them.  I have searched through the forums and tried to find articles on what it is like being a pilot in the RCAF, but I have not done so very successfully so if there are any current or former pilots, or anyone who knows what I should say for this question, your help would be appreciated.  I also believe they are not looking for the typical 'romantic' answer to this question, "They fly planes at Mach speed and shoot missiles", but also what goes into planning a mission, their responsibilities on base, etc.  Thanks in advance for any help that is given.


----------



## mariomike

speargun said:
			
		

> I have searched through the forums and tried to find articles on what it is like being a pilot in the RCAF, but I have not done so very successfully so if there are any current or former pilots, or anyone who knows what I should say for this question, your help would be appreciated.



See also,

A day in the life of... a pilot
http://army.ca/forums/threads/97209.0
"I'm currently preparing for my interview on Monday, and was wondering if any pilot's or anybody else with current knowledge could describe a day in the life of a CF pilot. Besides flying what other duties are you responsible for on base?"

Life of a Pilot: The Off-Duty Aspects  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/108851.0.html

Least appealing aspects  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/111579.0
"I am looking at becoming a pilot and if anybody can help point out the least appealing aspects of being a pilot can you please tell me."


----------



## Quirky

They pretty much just come to work for a few hours, fly around for a bit and bring back the aircraft broken. After that they retire to the officers mess and play volleyball in the sand.


----------



## Tgunn1109

Hi, I am going to Trenton in a few weeks and I found out, the aptitude test is really tough. For the fuel consumption and speed, distance, time test, are we going to be able to use a pen and paper or it's strictly mental calculation?

And is it better, to make sure they are all correct or go through a lot of them during the test so you can answer more questions get the easy ones?

Thank you for your time!

T


----------



## Loachman

Tgunn1109 said:
			
		

> Hi, I am going to Trenton in a few weeks and I found out, the aptitude test is really tough. For the fuel consumption and speed, distance, time test, are we going to be able to use a pen and paper or it's strictly mental calculation?
> 
> And is it better, to make sure they are all correct or go through a lot of them during the test so you can answer more questions get the easy ones?



There is a whole thread dedicated to ACS: http://army.ca/forums/threads/70257.0.html


----------



## Justin Ko

Hello. 

I am wondering about being a pilot and want to ask these questions!
I want to become a fighter jet pilot so most of these following questions will be based around that.

1. Do you need any flying experience to become a fighter jet pilot? 

2. To become a fighter jet pilot, do you need to be the best in your class (Or whatever the name is) and have the best scores in tests - CFAT, flying tests, etc.

3. Do all pilots need to be an officer; Do I need to take BMOQ, not BMQ?? 

4. What is the duration of specialized training for a fighter jet pilot? 

5. Will it affect my option to become a fighter jet pilot if I have a University degree that has nothing to do with the occupation? i.e electrical engineer, chemical engineering, business, etc. And can they be from any Canadian civilian university or only RMC/any CAF recognized university?

6. I roamed through the internet and found that Seneca College in Toronto is offering a military flight program. I am wondering if that would be something to look at, or would I be better off just going to the flight school that goes on after you've been accepted to the CAF, or whatever program they have for pilots in RMC.

7. I'm still a bit fuzzy at the different ways to join; CEOTP, DEO, ROTP. I am wondering which classes are better (Or offer better things) than one another, and how they are different. I could probably look this up but I want to have a firm standing of what each do.

8. If all else fails and I don't become a fighter jet pilot, could I become a pilot in a different field such as a transport pilot, helicopter pilot, etc.? 

9. This is a bit off topic, but once you are fully trained (or maybe even during training) could you bring a portable camera such as a Go-Pro and film inside of the cockpit and upload it to a site such as Youtube, or is that not allowed? 

10. I have good vision, but when I close my left eye, its blurry to see some smaller stuff far away, but its not affected by near sight. When i open both of my eyes, I can see forever and ever. So I was wondering if my left eye wouldn't let me get passed the eye test. I was also wondering what's the recommended visual acuity and the minimum. 

11. How many Canadian fighter jet pilots are there in the CAF currently?

Thanks if you answered all these questions in advance, I really appreciate it.


----------



## MasterInstructor

Before somebody responds and tells you to search, i will asnwer some of your questions... 

1- Absolutely not
2- You need to best in certain skills, does not mean best in class. 
3- yes, and yes
4- do not know
5- no, as long as the degree you have is accepted for pilot trade.
6-no... Stick with the military...
7- different entry options depends on your educational background... do you have a degree? 
8- initially, you will become a pilot. then you will be selected for your stream after phase 2 of training... you do not get to choose... they choose you, you only give a preference. 
9- it will depend on the mission and specific permission... no way to tell. i have seen videos that are created with permission for PA reasons. 
10- you need un corrected 20/20 vision. you can get a simple eye exam to find out. 
11- about 25% are fighter pilots... not sure of the number.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Justin Ko said:
			
		

> 9. This is a bit off topic, but once you are fully trained (or maybe even during training) could you bring a portable camera such as a Go-Pro and film inside of the cockpit and upload it to a site such as Youtube, or is that not allowed?



Most of your questions have been answered but this one caught my eye:  why do you even think about this at this stage?!


----------



## SupersonicMax

MasterInstructor,

The Seneca Program is part of CEOTP so it is military....


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, Justin Ko.

I take it that you did not read the stickied "READ FIRST" http://army.ca/forums/threads/115341.0.html post for this forum. Please do so now.

You have asked some valid questions, but they have all been answered elsewhere on this Site. Please read through older threads and try out the Search Function. I will merge this thread with one of those other threads later this evening.

The flying training programme is challenging and requires a lot of effort and work to pass it. You can begin that process by applying some effort on this Site. You will also likely find answers to other questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

Happy reading...


----------



## Justin Ko

Sorry about that, just wanted the easy way out. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Loachman

The "easy way" leads to disappointment and failure.

What you seek is difficult and success is far from guaranteed, which makes those Wings so much more of a prize if you make it that far.

We will provide you with as much assistance and advice as we can, but also no more than you are willing to earn.


----------



## Melbatoast

MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> Before somebody responds and tells you to search, i will asnwer some of your questions...
> 
> 1- Absolutely not
> 2- You need to best in certain skills, does not mean best in class.
> 3- yes, and yes
> 4- do not know
> 5- no, as long as the degree you have is accepted for pilot trade.
> 6-no... Stick with the military...
> 7- different entry options depends on your educational background... do you have a degree?
> 8- initially, you will become a pilot. then you will be selected for your stream after phase 2 of training... you do not get to choose... they choose you, you only give a preference.
> 9- it will depend on the mission and specific permission... no way to tell. i have seen videos that are created with permission for PA reasons.
> 10- you need un corrected 20/20 vision. you can get a simple eye exam to find out.
> 11- about 25% are fighter pilots... not sure of the number.



There is a lot wrong here.

Advanced flying experience (i.e. commercial or better) is of a lot of help, in fact. Otherwise less so. I had zero hours and did fine in Phase II though the learning curve was steeeeeeeeep.

Jet selection has a certain GPA cutoff requirement over the course of Phase II (mostly weighted toward flying, more heavily to flying tests). It has nothing to do with CFAT etc. You are selected for your stream _during_ Phase II, typically after most of your course has finished 3 tests. Almost everyone gets their choice these days - after arriving in Moose Jaw and developing as an aviator over the run of the course, you get a realistic view of what you really want and choose accordingly. There's always someone who thinks they're god's gift to military aviation and aims for jets yet tanks every test and gets achieved standard in daily flying and is shocked not to get what they want, but they're rare.

Like Max said, Seneca is military. If you already have a degree there is no point in, and you may not be accepted for, the programme.

You DO NOT, again DO NOT need uncorrected 20/20 vision. This has been in effect for _years_, close to a decade now. You can be V2, laser corrected, or probably even both.


----------



## mariomike

A few discussions you may find of interest to get you started, ( in addition to these 50 pages. )



			
				Justin Ko said:
			
		

> I want to become a fighter jet pilot so most of these following questions will be based around that.



So, you want to be a Fighter Pilot?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/103289.0

So you wanna be a fighter pilot eh?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/26054.0

Looking for an active TacHel or Fighter pilot  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/116410.0

Fighter pilot career path  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/105636.0

Questions regarding RMC - And the life of a Fighter Pilot.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104619.0

Aspiring Fighter Pilot's Bachelors Degree and Experience  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/106242.0



			
				Justin Ko said:
			
		

> I have good vision, but when I close my left eye, its blurry to see some smaller stuff far away, but its not affected by near sight. When i open both of my eyes, I can see forever and ever. So I was wondering if my left eye wouldn't let me get passed the eye test. I was also wondering what's the recommended visual acuity and the minimum.



Vision Standards and Laser Eye Surgery for Pilots  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/12747.0
7 pages.



			
				Justin Ko said:
			
		

> I'm still a bit fuzzy at the different ways to join; CEOTP, DEO, ROTP.





			
				Justin Ko said:
			
		

> I roamed through the internet and found that Seneca College in Toronto is offering a military flight program.



CEOTP-The Seneca College Pilot Program FAQs  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105937.0

RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/106261.75.html

etc...


----------



## Justin Ko

Thank you guys so much, you guys have really helped me a lot.


----------



## Justin Ko

MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> 7- different entry options depends on your educational background... do you have a degree?



No, not yet as I am still finishing high school and wondering what the best course of action I should take.


----------



## Downhiller229

Justin Ko said:
			
		

> No, not yet as I am still finishing high school and wondering what the best course of action I should take.



If you are finishing high school Seneca CEOTP is the only option that I would recommend to any of my friends. I don't know why anyone without a degree would do any different! Look into it and see which options align the most with your desires but if getting in the cockpit and moving along the stream is more important to you than having a degree there is no reason not to choose the Seneca program. Some even might say it comes with certain... Privileges. 

Happy reading!


----------



## Justin Ko

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> If you are finishing high school Seneca CEOTP is the only option that I would recommend to any of my friends. I don't know why anyone without a degree would do any different! Look into it and see which options align the most with your desires but if getting in the cockpit and moving along the stream is more important to you than having a degree there is no reason not to choose the Seneca program. Some even might say it comes with certain... Privileges.
> 
> Happy reading!



Would ROTP through RMC be the same, or even better than CEOTP?


----------



## mariomike

Justin Ko said:
			
		

> Would ROTP through RMC be the same, or even better than CEOTP?



You may find these discussions of interest,

Becoming a Pilot through the RMC  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/90552.75.html
4 pages.

ROTP - Pilot (Not CEOTP) 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/111563.0

Applying to RMC through ROTP, to become a pilot in the long run...  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/83647.0

applying to ROTP for Pilot  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/80137.0

Pilot Applicants  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/13513.75.html
4 pages.

applying for ROTP? (Pilot)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/107357.0

etc...


----------



## Zoomie

Seneca CEOTP is a stop-gap - useful this year, maybe not so much the year after.  DEO/ROTP are the two preferred and ideal entry plans for any Officer position in the CAF.

There are zero privileges associated with any entry plan - you are treated exactly the same during Phase training and your follow on career.  Seneca-CEOTP mbrs will find their career advancement more challenging as the ability to pursue a Master's degree (for higher promotion) would be that much more difficult.


----------



## Justin Ko

mariomike said:
			
		

> You may find these discussions of interest,
> 
> Becoming a Pilot through the RMC
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/90552.75.html
> 4 pages.
> 
> ROTP - Pilot (Not CEOTP)
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/111563.0
> 
> Applying to RMC through ROTP, to become a pilot in the long run...
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/83647.0
> 
> applying to ROTP for Pilot
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/80137.0
> 
> Pilot Applicants
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/13513.75.html
> 4 pages.
> 
> applying for ROTP? (Pilot)
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/107357.0
> 
> etc...



Thanks for this!



			
				Ditch said:
			
		

> Seneca CEOTP is a stop-gap - useful this year, maybe not so much the year after.  DEO/ROTP are the two preferred and ideal entry plans for any Officer position in the CAF.
> 
> There are zero privileges associated with any entry plan - you are treated exactly the same during Phase training and your follow on career.  Seneca-CEOTP mbrs will find their career advancement more challenging as the ability to pursue a Master's degree (for higher promotion) would be that much more difficult.



Thanks, that clears it up now!


----------



## mariomike

Justin Ko said:
			
		

> Thanks for this!



You are welcome. Good luck ( and good reading ).


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:
			
		

> You may find these discussions of interest,
> 
> Becoming a Pilot through the RMC
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/90552.75.html
> 4 pages.
> 
> ROTP - Pilot (Not CEOTP)
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/111563.0
> 
> Applying to RMC through ROTP, to become a pilot in the long run...
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/83647.0
> 
> applying to ROTP for Pilot
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/80137.0
> 
> Pilot Applicants
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/13513.75.html
> 4 pages.
> 
> applying for ROTP? (Pilot)
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/107357.0
> 
> etc...



I have merged all of these threads into "ROTP for Pilot Applicants" at http://army.ca/forums/threads/80137.0.html, save "Pilot Applicants".


----------



## Downhiller229

Ditch said:
			
		

> Seneca CEOTP is a stop-gap - useful this year, maybe not so much the year after.  DEO/ROTP are the two preferred and ideal entry plans for any Officer position in the CAF.
> 
> There are zero privileges associated with any entry plan - you are treated exactly the same during Phase training and your follow on career.  Seneca-CEOTP mbrs will find their career advancement more challenging as the ability to pursue a Master's degree (for higher promotion) would be that much more difficult.



I was trying to be funny with the privilege thing. Seneca program kids have priority loading on their phase training because they have a timeline to follow as far as returning to school.


----------



## trampbike

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> Advanced flying experience (i.e. commercial or better) is of a lot of help, in fact. Otherwise less so. I had zero hours and did fine in Phase II though the learning curve was steeeeeeeeep.


I'd say it's useful for PH1 (in fact, it with enough previous experience, you'll probably get to skip), slightly useful at the very beginning of PH2, and completely irrelevant for PH3 and follow on training.



			
				Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> I don't know why anyone without a degree would do any different!


Maybe some people want a real degree?


----------



## Griffon

I would actually very cautious to send my friends the CEOTO route. Apart from the issues getting into post-grad with the Seneca degree, there's also the very real possibility of release in the event of course failure for CEOTP student pilots. There is a much higher probability of retention for those that don't make it through pilot training but have a degree.


----------



## CanadianAirForce

Hello,

My name is Arooj and I am currently interested in joining the Canadian Air Force. When looking at several requirements, it's shown that a university degree is required to enlist. My plans for the future are to attend Seneca College and complete the Honours Bachelor of Aviation Technology program and get my Commercial Pilot License. Although the program is based in a college, the program is University standard and the credential obtained is a degree (not a college diploma). If i wanted to join the Air Force, my questions are:

-What kind of Pilots license would I need to obtain? 
-Would my degree be okay even if it's from a college?
-Would I need to have previous flying experience? (I will be able to get 300 hours of flying in the program)
-How athletic would I need to be?
-Is there any way I could get a head start into joining the Air Force, as I would be graduating from my program in 2021

I am located in the GTA, Ontario, Canada.

I would really appreciate any answers to my questions!

Thanks,
Arooj


----------



## mariomike

CanadianAirForce said:
			
		

> My plans for the future are to attend Seneca College and complete the Honours Bachelor of Aviation Technology program and get my Commercial Pilot License.



Some Seneca College discussions you may find of interest,

CEOTP-The Seneca College Pilot Program FAQs  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/105937.50.html
3 pages.

RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/106261.75.html
4 pages.

CEOTP AEAD Seneca Course 1
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112274.25.html
2 pages.

New Seneca College programs  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/107411.0/nowap.html
OP: "I also read alot of blogs from aspiring pilots and people that graduated some years ago."

Are there any advantages ? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/110328.0
OP: "AEAD is the new program they got out that you do your degree at seneca college in toronto and you also get your wings at the same time ???"

Royal Canadian Air Force Pilot Training Program
http://www.senecacollege.ca/school/aviation/rcaf/

CEOTP - Pilot
http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilotofficer-32#ceotp

etc...


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, Arooj

As you may see from mariomike's links, there is plenty of information here on this Site already. Please take the time to look around. By reading through older threads - especially those stickied at the top of each forum - you will find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

The flying training programme is very demanding, but even more rewarding to those who succeed. There is lots of homework. You can prepare yourself best by doing a little of that here.


----------



## EvilTerabite

Hi,
This is my first post here so please be gentle, Thanks  ;D.

So I want to be an RCAF Pilot throught the CEO-TP Program eventually, but for now I want to do something that will help me get where I want to go! I am open to any option.

I will provide more details o request!  Thanks  [


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, EvilTerabite

Firstly, look around the Site for a while, and read older pertinent threads. Start with those stickied at the top of each forum. There is a ton of information there already, and there is no need to repeat any of it. It's yours for the reading, and you'll probably find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

I will merge this thread into http://army.ca/forums/threads/12744.0.html shortly.

I see that mariomike was busy while I was typing...


----------



## Loachman

I have merged all of the CEOTP Pilot threads into http://army.ca/forums/threads/105937.0.html, so that is the only link that works now.


----------



## kalrod885

I was reading about becoming a pilot in the CF. What rank do pilots start as? In the pay scale it only shows information from captain onwards so does this mean pilots start as captains?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

No.

Before Captain, you are paid on the GSO scale.


----------



## Davy

Hi!

I applied as a pilot through SENECA in November 2015. 
I went through the whole process fairly well and quickly.
In July 2016, I received an official offer as pilot.... which I declined.
I am currently studying engineering in a civy university and I felt like
I wasn't ready to drop it all to start my new career.

The thing is now I wonder everyday if I should have accepted. Looks like
such an amazing profession. My question is: If I decide to re-apply, will I
have to start the whole process all over again? By process I mean CFAT,
interview, blood testing, eyes testing, medical testing, Aircrew Selection,etc.

What if I apply tomorrow?
What if I apply next year?

Thanks!
Sorry if my post isn't the proper section (so Canadian to say sorry like that... )
I browsed the forum and could not find an answear.


----------



## Loachman

"Declining an offer (merged)" at  http://army.ca/forums/threads/104645.0/all.html may help.


----------



## mariomike

Davy said:
			
		

> Hi!
> 
> I applied as a pilot through SENECA in November 2015.
> I went through the whole process fairly well and quickly.
> In July 2016, I received an official offer as pilot.... which I declined.
> I am currently studying engineering in a civy university and I felt like
> I wasn't ready to drop it all to start my new career.
> 
> The thing is now I wonder everyday if I should have accepted. Looks like
> such an amazing profession. My question is: If I decide to re-apply, will I
> have to start the whole process all over again? By process I mean CFAT,
> interview, blood testing, eyes testing, medical testing, Aircrew Selection,etc.
> 
> What if I apply tomorrow?
> What if I apply next year?
> 
> Thanks!
> Sorry if my post isn't the proper section (so Canadian to say sorry like that... )
> I browsed the forum and could not find an answear.



See also,

Declining an offer (merged) 
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/104645/post-1458401.html#msg1458401



			
				Davy said:
			
		

> Hi!
> 
> I applied as a pilot through SENECA in November 2015.
> I went through the whole process fairly well and quickly.
> In July 2016, I received an official offer as pilot.... which I declined.
> I am currently studying engineering in a civy university and I felt like
> I wasn't ready to drop it all to start my new career.
> 
> The thing is now I wonder everyday if I should have accepted. Looks like
> such an amazing profession. My question is: If I decide to re-apply, will I
> have to start the whole process all over again? By process I mean CFAT,
> interview, blood testing, eyes testing, medical testing, Aircrew Selection,etc.
> 
> What if I apply tomorrow?
> What if I apply next year?
> 
> Thanks!!!


----------



## Davy

I know that I posted 2 different times Mario!
I want answears! ahaha


----------



## Loachman

If you want answers, then read through the "Declining an offer (merged)" thread and find them. I provided that link to you for that purpose, not simply because I had nothing else to do.

If you manage to have a truly unique question that has not been answered therein, go ahead and ask it in that thread and that thread only. Multiple identical or reasonably close-to-identical posts are considered to be spamming on this Site and that is not permitted, no matter how many "ahahas" you append to your posts. Normally, one post would be deleted.

The vast majority of answers that you need are already here, somewhere. There is a metric shit-ton of homework and study on the Pilot courses, you will be expected to do that work and know the material thoroughly, and, while your Instructors will happily provide assistance to those that need and deserve it, they will not spoonfeed you. Neither will we, so you may as well begin to become accustomed to that. As a bonus, by reading through older threads and searching, you will learn much more and will likely find answers to questions before they even occur to you.

If, after an honest and thorough search, you cannot find an answer, then somebody will be happy to help further - just as you will experience on your courses.

If you really want those Wings, you will have to earn them.

The effort - and much is required, more than you can imagine - is more than worth it.


----------



## George Wallace

Davy said:
			
		

> I know that I posted 2 different times Mario!
> I want answears! ahaha



That would be considered SPAMMING. We have answers for that.  It is called BANNING.


----------



## akm

As a pilot, is it possible to continue your education and attain a Masters/PhD in your field of study (eg Masters in Engineering)? If so, how easy/difficult is this to achieve, and are there opportunities to do it as a full-time student without having to manage military obligations?

This was all I could find, but was pretty anecdotal. Was wondering if anyone has more concrete answers. http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/12744/post-948079/topicseen.html#msg948079


----------



## kev994

akm said:
			
		

> As a pilot, is it possible to continue your education and attain a Masters/PhD in your field of study (eg Masters in Engineering)? If so, how easy/difficult is this to achieve, and are there opportunities to do it as a full-time student without having to manage military obligations?
> 
> This was all I could find, but was pretty anecdotal. Was wondering if anyone has more concrete answers. http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/12744/post-948079/topicseen.html#msg948079


I have a pilot friend finishing his PhD right now in some sort of nuclear engineering.


----------



## akm

kev994 said:
			
		

> I have a pilot friend finishing his PhD right now in some sort of nuclear engineering.



Good to hear, do you know if your friend is doing is PhD as a full time student, or is he studying it on the side alongside being a pilot?


----------



## kev994

He's in a ground job that involves a lot of shift work, other than that I'm not sure.


----------



## jsmith

First post ever.

Is anybody here still amidst a pilot application? I'm surprised nobody has replied to this post since 30 March, 2017! I've personally applied for Pilot very recently. Haven't written my CFAT yet. If anybody else is amidst an application, please chime in and share your experiences in realtime! I've gathered a serious amount of information from this thread (and other threads) (and moreso from this website in general), so it'd be comforting to have everybody continue posting about their ongoing experiences.

Thanks much.

Also let me know if something's wrong/weird with my profile or with my thread replying format.


----------



## Loachman

After fifty-five pages, and in the absence of any new developments, there's likely nothing of value to add that would not just further bloat up an already large thread.

Keep what you're doing, and churn through more older threads. That'll do you more good.

There's nothing "wrong/weird" with your profile or thread replying format.


----------



## yolotuber

I apply in september for pilot, im 16. I want to go to RMC in aerospeace engeniring and become  a pilot. I've been selected to get my glider licence this summer with cadet program... in 6-8 months i'm coming back with some news !!!
[/quote]


----------



## Black Wolf

Hi, I consider joining the air force to be jet pilot. I currently study for my I.T A+ certification. I then plan to acquire many different certifications like the ones given by Microsoft or even networking, security+ and such. I was wondering if the Canadian army would see these as collegial/university studies? I read that the US army now officially recognize them. As a fact what I learn is also learned at college and university. Also in the order of things, someone who graduate from college then go through doing the certifications im doing.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I'm not aware of the CompTIA certifications counting towards or as equal to college or university studies, however some colleges or universities _might_ grant equivalencies towards certificate, diploma or undergraduate studies.  It's been a few years since I've been involved in CAF IT/networking work, but I did hold A+, Network + and several Novell and Microsoft certs (CNA, CNE, Master CNE, MCP) as well and they were 'nice' but what really counted was my diploma (Net Admin/Engineer) and my post-graduate diploma (Information Systems Technologist).

On it's own, no industry certification is going to open the doors for you for pilot of any sort;  if that is your true goal, even college education in IT won't be sufficient education to meet the Pilot requirements.  Your education plan seems to line you up more for CAF trades such as ACISS - Army Communication and Information Systems Specialist, Communicator Research Operator , ATIS Tech - Aerospace Telecommunication and Information Systems Technician or Cyber Operator.  :2c:


----------



## Black Wolf

Thank you, those trades sounds very interesting. I will definitively look into it all more as to know what is the best option for me.


----------



## GarryB

A previous poster mentioned that this thread is getting stale.  Is the interest in piloting in the air force starting to wane?

As a former CF pilot who joined in the days of zero jobs on the "street" I have to wonder if the CF will have, and is having problems attracting qualified candidates during the current unprecedented time of growth and shortages in the airlines.  I read a study the other day that predicts that Canada will be require 6,000 pilots in the next 20 years.  Where are they going to come from?

Loved my time in the air force, but given the realities of the commercial aviation industry, I am concerned that the CF may have some serious problems attracting pilot recruits.  Gone are the days of pensionable service being bought back with credit towards Air Canada's pensionable service, new rules requiring 3 years of duty after an OTU, a Liberal government that is generally ambivalent to the military, greater number of helicopter positions than fixed wing, agonizingly long delays on updates to the fleet, etc, etc.

I wish the air force the very best and will watch with great interest to see how the Canadian military (and commercial aviation for that matter) tackles the strain that it will no doubt face.


----------



## Carf

GarryB said:
			
		

> A previous poster mentioned that this thread is getting stale.  Is the interest in piloting in the air force starting to wane?



That could very well be true, but there's also the fact that internet forums are becoming a thing of the past.


----------



## Overboard

Hello Everyone,

Passed ASC for pilot last week and am really looking into the lifestyle of the trade right now. I was hoping someone could answer a few of my questions about what it's like to be a pilot right now.

1. How likely would it be to get Cyclones/Cormorant if I went heli?

2. Is it easy to swap between air frames within your community?

3. How easy is it to transfer between bases within your air frame?

4. How often do aircraft fly to actually do their job instead of training (Real SAR, Operations for Tac Hel, etc)?

5. How is social life on the more rural bases like Cold Lake and Greenwood?

6. Post CF, would transitioning to become a medivac or coast guard pilot be easy?

7. Also post CF, would ministries like Global Affairs or think tanks like the Asia Pacific Foundation be interested in former pilots?

Many Thanks!


----------



## mariomike

You may also find these discussions interesting and informative,

How is a Pilots aircraft chosen?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/120167.0

How do Pilot promotions work?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/114690.0

Life of a Pilot: The Off-Duty Aspects  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/108851.0

Life as a CF pilot  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/94311.0

Time away from home for Pilots
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119510.0

A day in the life of... a pilot  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/97209.0

Pilot life after CF  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/58038.0


----------



## Overboard

Thanks for those resources MarioMike! I still have a few specific questions if anyone can answer them.



> 1. How likely would it be to get Cyclones/Cormorant if I went heli?
> 
> 2. Is it easy to swap between air frames within your community?
> 
> 3. How easy is it to transfer between bases within your air frame?
> 
> 4. How often do aircraft fly to actually do their job instead of training (Real SAR, Operations for Tac Hel, etc)?
> 
> 6. Post CF, would transitioning to become a medivac or coast guard pilot be easy?
> 
> 7. Also post CF, would ministries like Global Affairs or think tanks like the Asia Pacific Foundation be interested in former pilots?


----------



## mariomike

Overboard said:
			
		

> Thanks for those resources MarioMike!



You are welcome.  Good luck.


----------



## Loachman

Overboard said:
			
		

> Thanks for those resources MarioMike! I still have a few specific questions if anyone can answer them.



There are no specific answers.

The variables are infinite.

Everybody's career and experience are different.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Overboard said:
			
		

> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Passed ASC for pilot last week and am really looking into the lifestyle of the trade right now. I was hoping someone could answer a few of my questions about what it's like to be a pilot right now.
> 
> 1. How likely would it be to get Cyclones/Cormorant if I went heli?
> 
> 2. Is it easy to swap between air frames within your community?
> 
> 3. How easy is it to transfer between bases within your air frame?
> 
> 4. How often do aircraft fly to actually do their job instead of training (Real SAR, Operations for Tac Hel, etc)?
> 
> 5. How is social life on the more rural bases like Cold Lake and Greenwood?
> 
> 6. Post CF, would transitioning to become a medivac or coast guard pilot be easy?
> 
> 7. Also post CF, would ministries like Global Affairs or think tanks like the Asia Pacific Foundation be interested in former pilots?
> 
> Many Thanks!



From my understanding:

1. Cormorant is difficult. It's the most desired air frame in rotary wing. Cyclone is easier, however they are still working out alot of kinks in their training and there may be a big backlog when you go to do your OTU (kind of like the issues Chinooks have been having)

2. It's difficult. It takes a long time to get proficient in an air frame. They want you to get to aircraft captain as quick as possible, and once you are there they want you to stay in the CAF as long as possible. They don't have enough trained people to let them float between air frames. It does happen though, but it's rare and usually done for a bonafide reason.

3. Easy. It will likely happen during your career naturally. If you ask you can likely get posted more often. Generally you'll do one or two flying postings, followed by a static staff or HQ posting. and then the cycle repeats. 

4. You're looking at about 300 flying hours for Tac Hel per year. Multi engine is going to be higher since their flights are usually longer. Fighters is pretty low in hours, ~140-160 hrs a year, but your time is going to be spent doing alot of planning for those flying hours.

5. Rural AF bases do a good job promoting the military family. They're generally a tight knit community and there's lots of planned events for families.

6. CAF pilots are well sought after. If you have a good number of hours (~1500) you should have no issues getting a job when you leave the CAF. It's a little harder for rotary wing that most fixed wing pilots, but if you are willing to move where the work is, you will do well. 

7. I don't know about this one.


----------



## Seahawk

Hey,
I am interested in serving as a reserve pilot in the CAF...  :nod:

Basic questions:
1)	How hard is it to pass the CFASC for the Pilot trade?
2)	This might be a stupid question: how strong does your math have the be to be a pilot in the Air Force?
3)	How long do these two courses take: Primary Flying Training + Prerequisite Training Course?
4)	How long is the Basic Helicopter Course?

Reserve??
1)	Have you ever heard of people who got pilot training as a reserve member? 
2)	On forces.ca it says that “This occupation has a limited enrollment in the Reserve Force for unskilled applicants and is greatly dependent on previous flying experience.” What kind of flying experience are they looking for? If I want to be a reserve helo pilot, will I have a better chance of getting the training if I first get a PPL or CPL for helicopters?
3)     What do reserve helo pilots do other than train?
4)     Are there Tac helo squadrons in Ontario that accept reserve pilots?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## SupersonicMax

There used to be a pilot training program for reservists but I believe this doesn’t exist anymore.  Reservist pilots are, for the vast majority, ex-ref force pilots that retired from the ref force and still wanted to serve.


----------



## baboonass

Hello... I have done some reading and compilation of resources from this forum and external resources, trying to summarize where I am now / where I need to be in order to plan forward. I am also exploring ways where any part of the process may be expedited with the right amount of prerequisites.

Would appreciate greatly if the experienced members would correct where necessary, or assist with some queries that I may have to fill in the blanks :

*Age*
No issue as long as able to complete first engagement prior to CRA of 60

*DEO Career Process Flow*
Recruitment (CFAT, Interview, Screening) -> CFASC & Medical -> Offer & Enrollment -> BMOQ -> SLT -> Phase 1 (PFT) -> Phase 2 (BFT) -> Phase 3 (AFT, Wings upon graduation) -> Phase 4 (Transitional 
& FLIT) -> Operational Squadron Assignment - > Combat Readiness -> Element Lead -> Section Lead -> Mass Attack Lead

Is Phase 1 PFT waived and candidate moves to Phase 2 BFT with a PPL / CPL?

*CFASC Study Resources Recommended*
Online : Pilot Aptitude Tests, Speed-Time-Distance - Would there be a scratch paper and pen/pencil available for mathematical questions or only mental arithmetic?
Math Skills : Any specific other math skills required? Angles? Calculus?
Books : From the Ground Up

*Health*
Vision for Pilot - V2 - Approved correction techniques : WFG PRK, WFG Lasik or Epi-Lasik,  WFG LASIK with femtosecond keratome
Force Evaluation Fitness Test - Sandbag Lift, Intermittent Loaded Shuttles, Sandbag Drag, 20 meter rushes
BMOQ - Timed Run, Push-Ups, Chin-Ups, Sit-Ups, Hand Grip, Floating & Swimming

*Second Language Training* - _May be expedited with prior language classes?_
What is the minimum target / passing proficiency for reading, writing and oral - A-A-A or B-B-B or C-C-C or a A-A-B mixtures?
Is there an approximate equivalent of those grades in Canadian Language Benchmark (CLB) / IELTS or TEF?

*Finances (Regular Force and Class C Rates after March 2017)*
DEO with no prior commissioned member service - Second Lieutenant, Pay level C @ $4083 monthly
Upon getting wings, promotion to Lieutenant
Captain (if achieved 3 years since commission, exceptions apply) @$6687 monthly

There are many other tangible considerations - financial shortfall during training & preliminary years of service, young kids, relocation of the family... but that is something I need to figure out myself vs the intangible satisfaction of giving back to my country.

Many thanks in advance for your kind replies.


----------



## Carf

Just gonna throw in what little I can contribute here:



			
				DBoon said:
			
		

> *DEO Career Process Flow*
> Recruitment (CFAT, Interview, Screening) -> CFASC & Medical -> Offer & Enrollment -> BMOQ -> SLT -> Phase 1 (PFT) -> Phase 2 (BFT) -> Phase 3 (AFT, Wings upon graduation) -> Phase 4 (Transitional
> & FLIT) -> Operational Squadron Assignment - > Combat Readiness -> Element Lead -> Section Lead -> Mass Attack Lead
> 
> Is Phase 1 PFT waived and candidate moves to Phase 2 BFT with a PPL / CPL?
> 
> It won't always go CFAT, Interview, Screening, ASC, Medical - for me, it went ASC, medical, interview and phase 2 medical.
> 
> 
> *Second Language Training* - _May be expedited with prior language classes?_
> What is the minimum target / passing proficiency for reading, writing and oral - A-A-A or B-B-B or C-C-C or a A-A-B mixtures?
> Is there an approximate equivalent of those grades in Canadian Language Benchmark (CLB) / IELTS or TEF?
> 
> I've heard from a current pilot that SLT is a low priority item nowadays and you'll only go through it if you've got nothing to do while waiting for courses.
> 
> 
> *Finances (Regular Force and Class C Rates after March 2017)*
> DEO with no prior commissioned member service - Second Lieutenant, Pay level C @ $4083 monthly
> Upon getting wings, promotion to Lieutenant
> Captain (if achieved 3 years since commission, exceptions apply) @$6687 monthly
> 
> DEO with prior service (commissioned or not) can lead to higher than base level C pay. Your past employment/education may also get you a non-basic increment pay offer. I received a non-pilot offer at pay incr 2 for 2LT, I assume due to my graduate degree.


----------



## baboonass

Many thanks Carf for your reply!


----------



## Scott1867

I was wondering if anyone knew if there was an age requirement to become a pilot?  I am 31 and have my Private Pilot License and was wondering if there was a cut off.  I know some militaries have a window in which you can join and outside of that window you cannot. Anyone have an idea?


----------



## kratz

Scott1867 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone knew if there was an age requirement to become a pilot?  I am 31 and have my Private Pilot License and was wondering if there was a cut off.  I know some militaries have a window in which you can join and outside of that window you cannot. Anyone have an idea?



No.

You are not too old at age 31. Most pilots will earn Obligatory Service terms of service of 7 years, not including subsided education programs. There is nothing stopping you from applying and trying.


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## Melbatoast

Scott1867 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone knew if there was an age requirement to become a pilot?  I am 31 and have my Private Pilot License and was wondering if there was a cut off.  I know some militaries have a window in which you can join and outside of that window you cannot. Anyone have an idea?



As an older guy who has successfully done it (older than 31), I would say that's a good age. Not detrimental, anyhow. 

Age isn't much of a determiner, it's more life situation: bringing a spouse and two kids to Moose Jaw has much more of an impact on how you cope with training than your calendar age. As well, the older you get the higher the stakes seem. That results in higher perceived pressure - this is something I heard from any number of instructors. I had my moments, but Ph1 was easy, Ph2 also was in retrospect, but Ph3 was a gut check. 

Here I am though, made it. You have as good a shot as anyone else.


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## TrueNorthStronk

I'm currently 15 years old now, and I'm aspiring to join the air force when I grow up as a pilot. I'm starting to prepare for this pathway now - Getting fit is the main concern for me, and I'm doing good academically as of now but I fall short on one thing... Mathematics. I'm sure you guys have to talk about that subject a lot, so I'll add a bit more to this thread.

So, starting with mathematics. To be as honest as I possibly can, I'm an idiot in math (I'm probably being a little dramatic there, but that's what I think of my performence in that subject). I was wondering how this would affect my career as a pilot in the air force, is it really that important or will I learn a lot of that stuff in training? Do I need to take academic level math in Grade 12 (calculus and vectors), or will I be fine just sticking with college level math all the way up to grade 12?

For my courses in high school, I'll be taking math (probably college level, unless I need to take university level), physics, physical education and maybe even co-op for the reserves. Are there any particular recommendations you guys have for courses to take in high school though? Any particular college majors that aren't necessarily required, but are recommended for a career in the air force? 

I appreciate any help in the slightest, and I'm sorry if I sound like a moron on this. I'm really only beginning trying to go down this pathway, and I want to make sure I know everything I can before I make a commitment.


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## dimsum

I'm sure others will chime in with more specific tips, but plan on take courses that will get you into university.  Aside from the Seneca program which is a minority, you will need to get into (and finish) university to become a Pilot with the RCAF.


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## mariomike

TrueNorthStronk said:
			
		

> I fall short on one thing... Mathematics.
> 
> So, starting with mathematics. To be as honest as I possibly can, I'm an idiot in math (I'm probably being a little dramatic there, but that's what I think of my performence in that subject). I was wondering how this would affect my career as a pilot in the air force, is it really that important or will I learn a lot of that stuff in training? Do I need to take academic level math in Grade 12 (calculus and vectors), or will I be fine just sticking with college level math all the way up to grade 12?



For reference to the discussion,

Do I have to be good at math to be a pilot? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/107157.0
2 pages.

See also,
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&ei=ec67W5CnDaPSjwTPva6IBg&q=site%3Aarmy.ca++%22want+to+be%22+pilot+math&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca++%22want+to+be%22+pilot+math&gs_l=psy-ab.3...15066.25938.0.27397.13.13.0.0.0.0.165.1023.12j1.13.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.A2mAPHzH9IY


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