# FIELD TIME



## HOPEFULSOLDIER (24 Aug 2011)

i was wondering if anyone knew how to word or support with cfao daod if there are any  staying out of the field if your spouse is going to give birth while you are away  





thanks in advance for the info

"SERVITIUM NULLI SECUNDUS"


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## PMedMoe (24 Aug 2011)

I don't know that there's any Regs to support this specific instance.  Just submit a memo requesting to be able to come out of the field for the birth of your child.  They may or may not grant it.


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## aesop081 (24 Aug 2011)

I would have to look at all the regs to be sure but i do not know, off the top of my head, of any regulation that states what you are saying.

We have guys who go on tour and plan their HLTA around their wife's due date so i doubt there is any rule that says you can't go to the field.


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## Franko (24 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I would have to look at all the regs to be sure but i do not know, off the top of my head, of any regulation that states what you are saying.
> 
> We have guys who go on tour and plan their HLTA around their wife's due date so i doubt there is any rule that says you can't go to the field.



There are also some troops that don't see the birth and only meet their baby after the tour is done, sometimes 6 months later. Seen that happen plenty.

I would say write up a memo and push it up the CoC, along with a sit down with your supervisors and explain the situation. Seeing as it's an exercise there may be a way to get you out of the field in time for the birth and to help out your wife.

Regards


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## Pusser (24 Aug 2011)

It never hurts to ask (although don't be whiny about it).  We "land" folks from ships all the time for this sort of thing, *if* the circumstances allow it.


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## Infanteer (24 Aug 2011)

AJ OLSEN said:
			
		

> i was wondering if anyone knew how to word or support with cfao daod if there are any  staying out of the field if your spouse is going to give birth while you are away



Just write a memo requesting compassionate leave.  Your CO can grant 14 days.  Although the Leave Manual describes Compassionate as leave for traumatic incidents or medical emergencies, it isn't limited to that, and I've gotten 14 Days Compassionate Leave for my soldiers with babies en route in the past.


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## Hurricane (24 Aug 2011)

Long story short, if it is simply a field ex your CoC should do the right thing and keep you on rear party. That being said, if it is a local ex (ie in your home base trg area) there is nothing stopping you from being called back to base to go to the hospital to be with your wife so you can still deploy, it just depends if your CoC wants that extra admin. I was pulled out of the field twice in one ex because my wife "thought" she was going into labour which she wasnt, and this said ex was approx 1 week prior to her due date. After the second time, they kept me on rear party) The first step I would say is to write a memo to the CO requesting x days compassionate leave. If that does not work, the padre can usually help you out with a few days so at least youre there for the birth. (I needed to use the padre route as my Chief Clerk wouldnt even entertain the idea of compassinate leave let alone forward a memo to the co)


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## HOPEFULSOLDIER (24 Aug 2011)

for clarification reasons i am based out of cfb edmonton with the patricias as a cook and the exercise is in the NWT


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## GnyHwy (24 Aug 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> If that does not work, the padre can usually help you out with a few days so at least you're there for the birth. (I needed to use the padre route as my Chief Clerk wouldn't even entertain the idea of compassionate leave let alone forward a memo to the co)



Just to clarify and comment on these points.  It is not the Padre's job to give days nor is he authorized to do so.  He will recommend to the CO and the CO makes the decision.  Also, the Chief Clerk comment seems far fetched.  It is not the duty of the Chief Clerk to decide who requests compassionate.  I can't imagine a Chief Clerk making that decision on their own, but if they in fact did, they certainly are in need of correction. 

Back to your post.  Notify your CoC asap, request a Padre or social worker interview if you wish, and get help with the memo.  When writing the memo be as detailed as you can be. i.e. dates, 1st birth?, potential complications? or whether or not your wife has family support in the area etc.. If family support is a no, I would list it as my first reason.  Do not lie or embellish.

Bottomline, there are no regulations that keep you home for a birth.  Certain Regiments may have internal policies or ways of doing things but generally, the CoC will always try to accommodate, but with no guarantees.


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## Infanteer (24 Aug 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> The first step I would say is to write a memo to the CO requesting x days compassionate leave. If that does not work, the padre can usually help you out with a few days so at least youre there for the birth. (I needed to use the padre route as my Chief Clerk wouldnt even entertain the idea of compassinate leave let alone forward a memo to the co)



The Padre can't give you anything - only the CO is authorized to sign off on Compassionate Leave.  However, the Padre is a personal advisor to the CO, so if you feel you aren't being supported by your immediate chain of command, you may convince the Padre to recommend leave to the CO.

Write the memo to the CO.  Since you don't know when the baby is coming out (?), perhaps you should propose being on rear party.

Edit:  GnyHwy beat me to it - his recommendations are good ones.


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## jeffb (24 Aug 2011)

Everyone else here has given good points. I want to add that you need engage your chain of command right away. If they aren't tracking that you have a baby on the way in the immediate future, they need to know. It is possible that your immediate supervisor might be able to ward this off without requiring memos simply by tasking someone else. At the very least, they will appreciate the heads up that your request is coming down the pipe.


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## Hurricane (24 Aug 2011)

My apologies, i did not intend to say the Padre GRANTS you leave, simply saying that usually a padres recommendation carries alot of weight.

And GNYHWY, I shit you not god as my witness. The CC's exact words to me were, "There is no entitlement to compassionate leave for having a baby, so dont even bother submitting a memo". In which case I could have submitted a memo, which in turn she proofreads before it is passed to the AO, which she simply would have hammered it with correction after correction and sent it back. I could give you many more examples of this type of behavior from this particular CC through pm if you wish. As far fetched as it may seem, it happened and things like this continue to happen on a daily basis.


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## Franko (24 Aug 2011)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> My apologies, i did not intend to say the Padre GRANTS you leave, simply saying that usually a padres recommendation carries alot of weight.
> 
> And GNYHWY, I shit you not god as my witness. The CC's exact words to me were, "There is no entitlement to compassionate leave for having a baby, so dont even bother submitting a memo". In which case I could have submitted a memo, which in turn she proofreads before it is passed to the AO, which she simply would have hammered it with correction after correction and sent it back. I could give you many more examples of this type of behavior from this particular CC through pm if you wish. As far fetched as it may seem, it happened and things like this continue to happen on a daily basis.



I take it with that response she's your supervisor. The CC has no say in the decision. Her job is to push it up to higher.

Now if the CC turns around and minutes it as "I do not support" she must back it up with reasons. 

I have pushed memos up to higher which I did not support and gave reasons as to why. I also sat the soldier down and explained why I don't support it, yet I still pushed it to the SSM. They came back being shot down for even more reasons and concerns than my own.

Worse comes to worse, you can sit down with your CoC and talk about it without the memo before hand to "iron it out" so everyone has an understanding of what is going on. Get your wife's doctor to write up a statement as to any complications. If push comes to shove the Base Surgeon and her doctor can talk it out and make recommendations to your CO as well.

In most instances the CoC will try to support if it's feasible. In the end, it's "mission first".

Regards


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## medicineman (24 Aug 2011)

Unless the CC is actually in your CoC, it shouldn't be going through them initially - your supervisor should have no problems proof reading and minuting a memo, and if they can't, well, hopefully THEIR supervisor can.  It may land on the CC's desk for admin advice regarding the request, but by that point, they shouldn't be pushing it back.

MM


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## GnyHwy (24 Aug 2011)

> The CC's exact words to me were, "There is no entitlement to compassionate leave for having a baby, so don't even bother submitting a memo". In which case I could have submitted a memo, which in turn she proofreads before it is passed to the AO, which she simply would have hammered it with correction after correction and sent it back. I could give you many more examples of this type of behavior from this particular CC through pm if you wish.



No need for a PM, as there is nothing I could do anyway.

The CC would be correct in stating that you are not "entitled" as it is still up to the CO.  However, once again it is not their job to decide whether or not it gets passed up.  As far correcting your memo, that is the CC's job.  Maybe asking for compassionate is the wrong way in their mind.  Ask for annual and short first and then get compassionate granted when they consider your situation.  A well written memo can accomplish a lot; a badly written one can cause confusion, wasting of time and ultimately bad decisions. If by chance your CoC is using the CC as a vessel for expressing their authority, that would be wrong also.  I doubt it, but hopefully that is not the case.

One of the reasons for compassionate leave is "exceptional personal reasons".  I would include a spouse giving birth in this.  Some others may not.  Leave type is sometimes manipulated to fit the situation. i.e. 2 days short and 2 days special could be used also.  Perhaps your CoC sees compassionate for deaths and grave injuries only.
  
Here is a link to the CF Leave Manual

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf

Getting back to AJ Olson's situation.  He does not need to request compassionate.  He just needs to get off the exercise or arrange for travel home early or back and forth if need be; depending on dates and duration of EX and spouse's due date.  There are likely a few solutions and the closing para of his memo should state these suggestions and/or his supervisor's minuting of the memo should state these suggestions/solutions.  If he needs days off (which is likely), he should ask for annual and short and hopefully his CoC will have the compassion to give him short, special and compassionate if need be.


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## Pusser (25 Aug 2011)

A couple of points here:

1)  Reasons for compassionate leave  are not precisely defined.  It is entirely within the *CO*'s purview to determine what is compassionate and what is not.  If the CO decides that compassionate leave is appropriate, then it is.  It's as simple as that.  Take note; however, that this does not necessarily translate into other things such as entitlement to compassionate travel assistance.  You can be granted compassionate leave without being entitled to compassionate travel assistance (e.g. you can be granted compassionate leave because you are distraught over the death of your cat, but that won't get the CF to pay for your plane ticket home).

2)  Special Leave *is* precisely defined.  It can only be granted for specific reasons as detailed in the Leave Manual (Education, Christmas/New Year/s, etc)  COs have no authority to create reasons for Special Leave.

3)  Short Leave is within the CO's authority (up to 48 hours per month).  COs have a great deal of flexibility here.

4)  It greatly disturbs me that a Chief Clerk would threaten or attempt to stop the upward motion of a request.  Even if the Chief Clerk is directly in your chain of command, he/she cannot do this.  The QR&O are quite specific that everyone has the right to address matters directly to their CO (QR&O 19.12) and no one has the right to interfere with that.  I would be having some pretty stern words with any senior NCO or warrant officer working for me, if I found out they were doing things like this.

Although not directly related to this topic, it is worth noting that some folks fail to understand that authority to grant a request is not the same as authority to deny it.  Just becasue a superior decides not to approve something, does not mean that they can kill it dead.  If the member chooses to take it higher, the superior who chose not to approve it is obligated to forward it (with a recommendation of course).


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## GnyHwy (25 Aug 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> 2)  Special Leave *is* precisely defined.  It can only be granted for specific reasons as detailed in the Leave Manual (Education, Christmas/New Year/s, etc)  COs have no authority to create reasons for Special Leave.



I am not trying to stir the pot, argue or dispute the quote above.  I am just trying to reinforce your point on ambiguity.

Cut and paste from the CF Leave Manual.

5.3.01 Policy - Special Leave (Community Affairs) may be granted at the discretion of the approving authority to provide CF members with paid time away from duty for the purpose of:
• Attending courses or gatherings associated with the community affairs and needs of the military dependant community.


Needs of the military dependant community would encompass a birth in my mind, but Pusser is correct in saying it is up to the CO and the way he interprets it.

As an aside, isn't that the reason Lawyers get paid the big bucks?  Their ability to dissect laws, find loopholes and exploit them, as well as their ability to write laws that leave very little room for interpretation.

Advice to Jnrs.  Never expect or feel entitled to any compensation of leave.  If your occasion is important enough, you should be ready and willing to use annual leave.  Be a stand up soldier and your CoC will take care of you.


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## CountDC (25 Aug 2011)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> I am not trying to stir the pot, argue or dispute the quote above.  I am just trying to reinforce your point on ambiguity.
> 
> Cut and paste from the CF Leave Manual.
> 
> ...



except you forget the first part - Attending courses or gatherings associated with the community affairs and 

Where does the birth fit into that let alone become a need of the community?

To add something new to the equation - how about PATA leave?  If the plan is to take it once the baby is born then the CoC should take that into consideration prior to sending the member on an ex. Unless the ex is an operational requirement then the CO should not be denying the PATA leave.  What would the real value be of taking someone on the ex then have to ship them back for 9 months off?

almost forgot - the C Clk is/was wrong and overstepped her authority. Unfortunately I have heard of such things many times and can not help but shake my head as I fail to understand where they get the concept that they have such authority.  Add a minute (recommendations to approve/deny) if you really have the need to put your two cents in and pass it up the chain.


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## Pusser (25 Aug 2011)

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> I am not trying to stir the pot, argue or dispute the quote above.  I am just trying to reinforce your point on ambiguity.
> 
> Cut and paste from the CF Leave Manual.
> 
> ...



This is *no* way an appropriate use of Special Leave (Community Affairs).  That brand of special leave is designed to enable members to participate in things like charitable events, things that contribute to the community as a whole and reflect well on the CF.  The birth of a child, although monumental to family, is not a community event (unless you're Kate Gosselin or Nadya Suleman).


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## HOPEFULSOLDIER (25 Aug 2011)

ok i got my answer from my CoC this post is starting to et out of and can a mod please lock it 


thanks all


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