# AGE Questions



## DG-41 (4 Aug 2005)

Are there any recruiters lurking in here?

Is there an upper age limit on getting into ROTP?

I did 4 years at CMR, but never quite finished, and I'm tossing around the idea of finishing school and doing the career right this time.

What are the odds on a 35 year old getting accepted into ROTP?

DG


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## DVessey (5 Aug 2005)

I've heard of a 32 year old 4th year around here, and there are also a few second years in their mid-twenties.

Are you talking about doing RMC, or civi U?

You said in another thread that you're an Lt in the reserves? Maybe there's some way to finish your degree with RMC through correspondence?

But if you really want to do ROTP, I don't know if there's an age limit or not. Good luck with whatever you decide though!


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## kincanucks (7 Aug 2005)

You need to have more than one year of university left to complete before you can be subsidzed under ROTP. Finish the degree PT through RMC.


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## eliminator (13 Oct 2005)

No age limit, as long as you have enough years to finnish your 5 year contract. Thats what I was told. Yea, there is a fourth year here that is in his 30s (33). I've know him for 5 years. There's a first year here now that is in his late 20s I think. He was RCR I was told and has a couple of ribbons (CPSM and Bos).

Not sure why he didnt go UTPNCM, maybe not enough checks in the boxes.


good luck


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## nurse sarah (13 Oct 2005)

I had a guy on my IAP/BOTP who was 41 at the time. Was airborne and came back as a nurse. He showed quite a few of us young 'uns up. As long as your fit, I don't think it matters.


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## dijones1234 (1 Aug 2009)

I'm 17, and about to attend gr. 12 starting this September,
I was wondering if i could apply for infantry officer NOW, or do i need to wait until i am finished high school?
(i have full intention of finishing)


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## Nfld Sapper (1 Aug 2009)

BASIC ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS01
Be a Canadian citizen;

Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country.
Be 17 years of age (with parental/guardian consent) or older;
junior level Military College applicants must be 16 years of age;
you may be enrolled in the Reserves providing you are 16 years of age (with parental/guardian consent);
*Meet the minimum education requirements for your entry plan and/or occupation;
this can vary from Grade 10 (Sec III in Quebec) for combat arms occupations to a university degree for the Direct Entry Officer entry plan*.


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## EPF (6 Aug 2009)

If you want to do you university degree through ROTP, it's a good idea to start your application this Fall. The recruiting process is fairly long, and the program is competitive. Your recruiting centre will be able to tell you about dates and deadlines and such. Good luck!


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## the 48th regulator (6 Aug 2009)

Great Question, and the answers are bang on.

This is deserving of a sticky, however I will Lock it, unless further information or updated info is added.

dijones1234, if you don't mind I will change the title so other people can find this easily

dileas

tess

milnet.ca staff


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## GregRell (10 Dec 2009)

Hello all, 
I have searched through these forums to try and find an answer to the following question: How old is too old to attend RMC?  I will give you some background.  I have an engg degree from a civie U, have been working for 2 and a half years and am particularly unhappy with civilian life.  I have applied for DEO several times, however I am always presented with jobs that do not peak my interest.  I have a pilots license and would like to be a pilot- heli, transport, fighter, whatever- I love being in the sky.  I would also like to work in intelligence if I can't be a pilot. I know that everyone and their brother applies to be a pilot, and I know that RMC grads get the top jobs in the CF. Recruiters always tell me this.  I also know that I would like to have my life in the CF, that I would like to have another engg degree, and love discipline, structure, and a rich variety of athletics in my life.  Instead of applying DEO I want to go through ROTP and attain all of those things while becoming a well disciplined officer.  My only reservation is that I am turning 28 next month. I feel young, I look young, I am very fit and stay active.  I believe I may have a rough initial period of losing some freedoms but feel it is well worth it and that I will become accustomed to it. 

So my question is are there other people in my position at RMC who are a bit older and how are they doing with life there?


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## GregRell (10 Dec 2009)

Also, thanks in advance to everyone for their input.


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## prima6 (10 Dec 2009)

First off, I find it unlikely that officers entering on ROTP get the "top jobs", whatever the "top jobs" are.  If you mean that they get more pilot slots per capita than DEO, CEOTP, UTPNCM, CFR, etc. I also find that unlikely.  IME recruiters sometimes give out incorrect information.  

Anyway, 28 is not too old, though it would be older than most other ROTP personnel.  There was a guy that was well into his 30s who enrolled at RMC while I was there.

The other thing to find out is whether you are even eligible for ROTP with your engineering degree.  From what I recall the only way to get into ROTP if you already have a degree is if the occupation you are accepted for requires a specific degree that you do not have.  I'd have to look up the regs at work to be sure.  Since an engineering degree is fine for pilot, I don't think you would be accepted.  Basically, the CF won't spend another $80 000 getting you another degree when you already meet the requirements for pilot with your current degree.  At least that's the way I remember it.  If no one chimes in with better information direct from the relevant regs I'll look it up tomorrow, I have an office day.

My advice would be to be to apply DEO.  I went to RMC and I did my M.Sc. at Civ U and there's not really anything that you get at RMC that's going to put you ahead of anyone else except for a couple of OPME courses that you won't have to do later because you'll do them as part of your degree program.  It's a different experience, but IMO there's nothing about it that makes you any better than an officer from any other entry program.


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## gcclarke (10 Dec 2009)

* Note: prima6 pretty much said what I'm about to say, but I figure that the message will get across better if heard from multiple voices. *

Now, I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the ROTP program was only open to candidates who do not already hold an undergraduate degree. After all, the entire point of the program is to bring people in and give them a degree in order to allow them to serve as an officer. If you already hold a degree, and can already serve as an officer, why should public funds be spent giving you another degree? To do so would be, frankly, a waste of taxpayer money. 

Unfortunately, the Canadian Forces Administrative Orders are not currently available on the internet, so if you can wait until tomorrow I shall check into "CFAO 9-40, University Training Plan - Officers" which should be the one that outlines the requirements. 

As for the concept of RMC grads being the only ones who get "the top jobs in the CF", that is 100% pure unadulterated bull manure, or at the very least wishful thinking on the part of RMC grads. If you really need proof of that, look no further than a certain Gen (Ret.) Hillier, who entered as a DEO. How far an officer goes in his career is determined by how he performs. I guarantee that there is no promotion board that gives points for being an RMC grad. 

And, honestly, even if RMC grads "tended" to go further, the extra four years of getting your career started will do you a lot better than a mythical RMC alumni boost.

As for the age of students at RMC, there are quite a number of former NCMs there under the University Training Plan for NCMs, many of whom are older than you are. If you'd have a problem, it won't be because of your age.

Another question I have is in regards to your statement that you've always been "presented with jobs that do not peak [your] interest". The recruiter is not the one who determines which jobs you want. At best, they can try to steer you towards jobs they feel might fit you better, or tell you which jobs you are and aren't qualified for. But if there's a job you want, feel free to apply for it and not let yourself be talked into "choosing" another trade.


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## GregRell (10 Dec 2009)

Thanks for your input thus far.
Clearly I have been given the run around by my local recruiter's office.  Each time I have gone in I will present my paperwork, qualifications, transcripts, and career choice to them and each time I am told I am not allowed to apply for DEO positions such as pilot or intelligence officer because slots are closed, this I can understand however, they will go into further detail in saying that these positions will usually always be closed to DEO since RMC grads are currently being trained for them.  I have had a recruiter tell me that if I really ever wanted a shot at becoming a pilot my best chances are to go back to school via RMC and do another degree, which I am willing to do. I don't mean to sound ignorant with my 'top jobs' comment, I am only basing that opinion on the information presented to me by my recruiter.  This forum is providing a better outlet of information.  

Also yes I am aware I request my position in the application, however I have on three occasions now been asked to apply for jobs that are in demand as opposed to my choices.  Each time I have declined politely and decided to wait a few more months to see if any slots are open.  I am hopeful one day those slots might actually open up for a brief time and I will be allowed to apply through DEO.   I'm disappointed I may not be eligible for ROTP. I will have to check that out as well.


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## gcclarke (11 Dec 2009)

It may certainly be that there are not any remaining slots available for DEOs in the trades that you have selected in this fiscal year. This doesn't mean that you can't still get on the list for any slots that may become available in the upcoming fiscal year. Of course, your recruiter is probably trying to discourage you from counting on getting it, as there are umpteen-billion people who want the job, and a few if any positions that are going to be made available. And at this time none of the recruiters know how many, if any, will be made available. 

Of course, also realize that in doing so, you'll be at pretty much the bottom of your recruiter's priority list when it comes to scheduling interviews, CFATs, medicals, etc. After all, their time is much better spent on processing someone who actually has a chance of heading off for basic in the next few months. 

As for all the pilot slots going to RMC, the issue with this is that there is currently no training capacity. But, there is forecaster to be some training capacity about four years down the road. So, they fill those future training slots with people who won't be able to start training for a few years, such as ROTP enrollees. And four years down the road when those future slots have all been filled by fresh RMC grads, the cycle continues. From the viewpoint of the CF Recruiting Group, everything is fine and dandy, as the needs of the service has been fulfilled. From the viewpoint of the horde of DEO pilot applicants, well, their *wants* haven't been fulfilled. But if you can take any lesson from this, let it be that the needs of the service always come first. 

So yes, you're being pressured into applying for a trade where you could better fulfill the needs of the service. And when you refuse, and insist upon being one of many applicants to try for a trade that is either not open, or has an extremely limited number of slots available (Or more aptly, a trade that has a ratio of slots available to applicants applying so low that all the slots will be filled with qualified applicants whether or not your application gets processed at all), yes you'll probably be put on the backburner here. 

Or, you know, you could apply to be a MSEO or a CSEO. Maybe get on the next NOAB. Sailing's fun you know.

Anyways, I'll look up that CFAO for you tomorrow.


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## GregRell (11 Dec 2009)

> As for all the pilot slots going to RMC, the issue with this is that there is currently no training capacity. But, there is forecaster to be some training capacity about four years down the road. So, they fill those future training slots with people who won't be able to start training for a few years, such as ROTP enrollees. And four years down the road when those future slots have all been filled by fresh RMC grads, the cycle continues. From the viewpoint of the CF Recruiting Group, everything is fine and dandy, as the needs of the service has been fulfilled. From the viewpoint of the horde of DEO pilot applicants, well, their wants haven't been fulfilled. But if you can take any lesson from this, let it be that the needs of the service always come first.



This is why I have such an interest in going back to school at RMC in the first place.  I probably am not eligible because as you say - I can already fill a position that the service needs right away.  Its not easy to have doors closed to you but you can't always get what you want.  I will still apply for RMC before Jan, and I will apply for DEO in the new fiscal year in April.. Just might get lucky.  I want to serve pretty badly and will probably take another career move if my DEO picks aren't available.  Sailing is pretty fun!

Thanks for your help


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## gcclarke (11 Dec 2009)

Ok, so upon some quick perusal of a few regs, it looks like you may indeed be a candidate for ROTP. My initial reaction was based upon the guidelines in DAOD 5031-7, Initial Baccalaureate Degree Programme, which does indeed preclude people who already hold a degree from getting a degree on the public dime if they already have one. But, that particular program is not the ROTP program, it is a program that is applicable only to officers who are already serving in the CF. 

CFAO 9-12, Regular Officer Training Program, on the other hand, does not list "not already holding a University degree" in its enrolment standards. The only academic standard listed is that a candidate must be "... accepted by an academic institution without condition in an acceptable course pattern..."

So yeah, it looks like you've still got a shot.

But still... sailing! C'mon! 

And if you wish to have a copy of the full text of that particular CFAO, feel free to PM me your e-mail address.


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## FDO (11 Dec 2009)

Our direction is, if you have a degree that will fulfill the requirments for the occupation you want we will NOT put you through for another one. However, if you want an occupation that you are not already qualified for then we will process you.

In short you have an Engineering degree that qualifies you for Pilot. However, if you had an Engineering degree and wanted to be an Intellegence Officer we would process you for one of the accepted degrees.

 What GC Clark said is correct. The RMC students that are currently in school for Pilot will not get in a cockpit for 6 years, 4 years RMC, 2 years preflight and other nause. Currently there are several hundred Jr. Officers awaiting Pilot training. 

Your best bet with BEng is to look at the occupations that apply to that degree. Or pick a trade that you want that your degree does not apply to and then go for RMC. At the start of April we will get the occupations that will open up and the numbers. Currently we are processing the applicants for the closed trades so we have some ready to go in April. It is slower than someone who wants an open trade but it will be done before the end of March unless you want to go Pilot.

Last week we had a brief from the CLS and he said that recruiting will be cut back by 1000 next year. So that means most of our trades will have fewer openings this year than last year.


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## FDO (11 Dec 2009)

I also meant to add that currently we have students in civilian universities that are going Pilot. It's not just RMC


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