# Performance Review Board (PRB) - Merged



## big45-70 (21 Sep 2012)

In aware that these are ways to let you know when you screwed up. 

Is there a number of counselings or note to files that you can get before your removed from BMQ?  How is it structured?


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## Canadian.Trucker (24 Sep 2012)

big45-70 said:
			
		

> In aware that these are ways to let you know when you screwed up.
> 
> Is there a number of counselings or note to files that you can get before your removed from BMQ?  How is it structured?


As stated above they should let you know in advance.

Short version - Only 1 level of each warning is allowed for a certain criteria before you're elevated to the next level.  For example you failed to make your bed and are given a counselling under complying with orders and instructions, you fail to make it again and are given an initial counselling for the same criteria, a 3rd time and are given a formal warning a 4th time and you're up for a progress review board (which could find that you are to be removed from training).  That's a simplistic example but gives you an idea.  So to answer the minimum number you could receive would be 4 (including a PRB), but it's never that simple to just say a number as circumstances will dictate.


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## SentryMAn (27 Sep 2012)

When I was there in '09, it was 9 "swipes" after week 5(in doctrine period).  You can get counsellings for basically anything and everything that you don't do correctly.  Mostly they will come from you messing up or failing at something.  The results of multiple counsellings is going to prb, where if you're lucky you will return to your platoon, if your not you could end up on PAT platoon in CFLRS or if you pissed off someone royally, you'll be discharged. 

Things may have changed since then, when you are there the first week of Training all this will be gone over in detail.


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## Memorize (22 Oct 2017)

Hello,

Longtime reader however first time posting here.

I wanna start by saying that I am back in the training system as a remuster. I am being told that if we fail 3 EC's in one PO it will consist of a PRB OR 2 EC's and one PC will consist of a PRB. Right now my training is expected from the start, to finish DP1 is about 14 months. Now if I fail an EC (quiz) 3 times within 3 weeks I may be sent back *months*, any longer from my family and my wife will have my head on a pike. I have tried to look everywhere I can to find some documentation on the matter but to no avail. I was under the impression that EC's, enabling checks are for a method to see how a said member is doing. I have seen a lot of people as a student and instructor pass a course or PO and did well but did not pass the EC's. Some people take longer for them to "click" on the subject.

So my questions are;

1. Who dictates what constitutes a PRB? The school or standards?
2. Can EC's fail you off a course?
3. Where can I find course TP's?
4. How do the initial and formal warning systems work?

Maybe I am getting this all wrong. I don't know. Just looking for clarification.

Thanks all!


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## PuckChaser (22 Oct 2017)

Likely what you're missing here is that the ECs have to be under the same PO. A Performance Objective (PO) is subdivided by multiple Enabling Objectives (EO) and each EO has an EC and each PO has a PC. PCs are a big deal, like failing an exam in school. Your ECs show how well you are grasping the content, so if you fail multiple ECs in the same PO, its an indicator that you likely would not be successful on the PC. Failing an EC in month 1, another in month 4 and another in month 10 (provided they aren't the same PO) shouldn't be a big deal, unless your school is very draconian in how it deals with EC failures.

Standards is who decides what constitutes PRBs, and they don't do that in a vacuum. The Army training is all run by CTC and courses all generally follow the same format.

I've personally never seen someone fail from ECs, but usually they've failed multiple ECs over a few POs and failed a PC twice which launched the PRB. You'll find the standards briefs are to scare you into paying attention, but the goal of your course staff is to make sure you learn the material. If you don't understand something and feel uneasy about an EC/PC, you need to make your staff aware and get help from them or another student who has the material down pat.

Standards in their inbrief should have covered exactly how your school applies Initial and Formal warnings, and what would get you where on the ladder. Typically I've seen Initials are EC failures, Formals are PC failures and EC retest failures, and PRBs are for PC restest failures and serious academic misconduct (cheating).

Course TPs are available on the CTC Gagetown DWAN site if you're in the Army. It has every career course and every OSQ that you could do. Also has the qualification standards which is the document that the TP is derived from.


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## Memorize (22 Oct 2017)

Puck,

First off thanks for the answers and quick reply. Maybe I wasn't clear enough but when I say fail 3 EC's it is all in the same PO or subject that brings someone straight to PRB. It would be great to get the extra help when needed however it is civilian staff teaching and any request for extra help gets denied by the military staff because of "paying for overtime" or "PT is a priority". It is difficult. I am just trying to grasp my head around this. It has changed several times already in a few months how this school deals with ECs, PCs and how to get to PRB's.

Thanks for the help of understanding. I just didn't believe it when they said (after a change) that 2 EC fails and 1 PC fail in the same PO is a PRB. When there is up to about 4 EC's per PO.


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## PuckChaser (22 Oct 2017)

If you're being denied extra help for a subject you're having trouble with, that's something you need to document each and every time you were denied in case you have to go to a PRB. If need be, write memos requesting the assistance if verbal denials are too frequent. Make sure you're an active participant in class as well. These things will assist you should you go to PRB, keeping in mind not every PRB decision is recourse. Very likely you could see yourself returned to training with that extra assistance you've asked for, and especially if you were to keep getting denied it. 

I'm not sure how much exposure you have to the military testing system, but the questions are usually very straightforward, with lots of multiple choice (at least in the NCM world). I've only had 1 course where I was expected to produce a lot of written answers, and we did an exhaustive review ahead of time.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2017)

Depending on your trade there may be orders that provide guidance.  For RCAF managed trades there is a 1 Can Air Div order that provides higher level policy for the AF TEs (5-035) that is then amplified further in each QS and TP.


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## Memorize (23 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> These things will assist you should you go to PRB, keeping in mind not every PRB decision is recourse.



We've been told that the 2 EC failures and the 1 PC failure leads us to a PRB with no retest, no if and's or buts automatically...

Just so everyone understands;

3 EC's failures is a PRB, or
2 EC's failures and 1 PC failure is a PRB with no retest...

I am just venting at this point, and still confused this is not how I thought the system worked. I was under the impression that EC's are initial's with counseling and PC's are formals with a rewrite before a PRB with a chance for a third rewrite, depending on the outcome of the PRB. Not straight to PRB. The mod I am on now has 5 EC's and 2 PC's within 12 training days for the PO. For some people understanding the material comes later, for it to "click". I just think the system is broken here.

Thank you all for your answers helping me try to understand this.

Oh, I am also having trouble finding course TP's from the CTC DWAN site...



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Depending on your trade there may be orders that provide guidance.  For RCAF managed trades there is a 1 Can Air Div order that provides higher level policy for the AF TEs (5-035) that is then amplified further in each QS and TP.



Where is this order?


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Oct 2017)

It used to be policy that a printed copy of the current TP was to be available in the back of the classroom.


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## Memorize (23 Oct 2017)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> It used to be a policy that a printed copy of the current TP was to be available in the back of the classroom.



Maybe once, however, if I were to ask for a TP it would raise questions as to why we want one and what we plan to do with it. Overall a negative outcome.


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## NavyShooter (23 Oct 2017)

Can I query what course you are taking?

There is an online database of QSP's that can be queried.  (QSP = Qualification Standard Plan)


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## PuckChaser (23 Oct 2017)

If you don't mind PMing me the course you're on, I can look on the CTC Gagetown page and find the TP for you.


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## Memorize (23 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you don't mind PMing me the course you're on, I can look on the CTC Gagetown page and find the TP for you.



Hey Puck, your inbox is full  ointdexter:


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## PuckChaser (23 Oct 2017)

Memorize said:
			
		

> Hey Puck, your inbox is full  ointdexter:



Fixed. For everyone else's reference, the max inbox storage is apparently 105 messages....  :moose:


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## GGHG_Cadet (23 Oct 2017)

Memorize said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that EC's are initial's with counseling and PC's are formals with a rewrite before a PRB with a chance for a third rewrite, depending on the outcome of the PRB. Not straight to PRB.



It depends. There are two documents that will govern how assessment is handled. The first is the QSTP. Chapter 3 - Assessment details the impact of failing each individual EC and PC. Further, it classifies some ECs as critical ECs, which if failed will usually result in some type of warning. The other place to check is in the School standing orders or conduct of courses. These documents will have amplifying details.


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Oct 2017)

Memorize said:
			
		

> Maybe once, however, if I were to ask for a TP it would raise questions as to why we want one and what we plan to do with it. Overall a negative outcome.



Students cannot be denied access to the TP.

What kind of third world training establishment are you attending?


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## TCM621 (24 Oct 2017)

It seems like this is at the CTC. None of this surprises me. I have personally seen people recoursed for a single PC fail or worse the ol' "failure to maintain standard" as they ramp up the difficulty beyond the TP. I heard some disturbing stuff out of CFSME last year such as attempting to charge someone who was uninvolved with an incident because "they needed to charge some one".


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2017)

Memorize said:
			
		

> We've been told that the 2 EC failures and the 1 PC failure leads us to a PRB with no retest, no if and's or buts automatically...
> 
> Just so everyone understands;
> 
> ...



This part is what is concerning to me;  isn't the whole purpose of a PRB to determine the who's, why's etc of why the trainee is struggling? The PRB therefore can't even recommend "remedial trg with final attempt at the PC" or something to that effect.  I am doubtful this would stand up to an unbiased review;  'situating the estimate' and all that.



> Oh, I am also having trouble finding course TP's from the CTC DWAN site...
> 
> Where is this order?



CTC...the Center of Excellence!!  I've spent some time around the battle mall and yup, there is always a chance to experience some Confirmation Of Combat Knowledge.

My experience at Air Force Training Establishments is that the Course Qualification Standard (QS) and TP (Training Plan) are provided to the students; when I last attended a formal TE course, those documents were available in hard copy in binders in the back of the class.  For us in the RCAF, there are orders specifically concerning conduct of training, etc, which form part of the 1 Cdn Air Div Orders, which are also applicable to 2 Cdn Air Div training establishments (I've attended training at TEs both in 1 and 2 Cdn Air Div...always had access to my QS and TP).

This doesn't seem to be the case at the CTC TE you're at.  Unfortunate;  however, maybe someone can post what the current C Army/DAT/etc policy is for provision of QS and TPs to candidates on a course.

I am away from the DWAN...I am curious what the CFITES states WRT to this too.


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## GGHG_Cadet (24 Oct 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This doesn't seem to be the case at the CTC TE you're at.  Unfortunate;  however, maybe someone can post what the current C Army/DAT/etc policy is for provision of QS and TPs to candidates on a course.



I do not know of any stated policy on the provision of QS/TPs, but in my experience, they are made available to students on request. Assessment checklists are typically the only parts that are actively pushed to students. 

All QS/TPs can be found on the AITIS ACIMS web page which is accessible from the CTC DWAN page. Further, Canadian Army Order 24-08 (Annex E) is the order that applies to the administration of the warning system and performance monitoring for Army courses.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2017)

RecceO said:
			
		

> I do not know of any stated policy on the provision of QS/TPs, but in my experience, they are made available to students on request. Assessment checklists are typically the only parts that are actively pushed to students.



I am a fan of the "available for the candidates, freely"...both so they can use them to succeed, and so that a valid trg failure can't try the "I didn't know what was expected of me" line in the PRB process. 



> All QS/TPs can be found on the AITIS ACIMS web page which is accessible from the CTC DWAN page. Further, Canadian Army Order 24-08 (Annex E) is the order that applies to the administration of the warning system and performance monitoring for Army courses.



Then it sounds like they are avail (perhaps not easily found by Candidate Joe Schmoe sometimes but...) and 24-08 contains the same training direction that 1 Cdn Div Order, Vol 5, 5-035 CONDUCT OF AIR FORCE INDIVIDUAL TRAINING AND EDUCATION (AF IT&E) provides.


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Oct 2017)

RecceO said:
			
		

> I do not know of any stated policy on the provision of QS/TPs, but in my experience, they are made available to students on request. Assessment checklists are typically the only parts that are actively pushed to students.
> 
> All QS/TPs can be found on the AITIS ACIMS web page which is accessible from the CTC DWAN page. Further, Canadian Army Order 24-08 (Annex E) is the order that applies to the administration of the warning system and performance monitoring for Army courses.



Back when the earth was cooling, I was a student and later, an instructor (and finally a Standards O) at the CTC. 

During every single Standards in brief, the Standards O/WO would point to the hard copy of the TP in the back of the classroom. During periodic standards visits to the classroom the Standards rep, in addition to conducting a write up on the classroom instructor, would check to ensure the TP was complete and update. Woe betide the Course O that was found to have lacking instructors or TP that was not current.


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## PvtsufferZ (5 Mar 2019)

I'm currently on PRB due to having 3 strikes for motivation and need to write a witness statement. What should I put, write in it and in what form so that my commander will allow me to finish my final weekend? Only have 3 days left for medi weekend to graduate and missed the last fall weekend BMQ due to private reasons. If it helps my CO has been on 2 tours in Afghan.


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## childs56 (5 Mar 2019)

First thing you have to do is self reflect on yourself. Do you really want to finish this for the right reasons. 
Then you need to reflect if this job is for you, your life style and your abilities.
Now you need to look at the shortcomings noted. Have you done anything to improve them, have you made improvements? In doing so did you put 100%into fixing the issue, or are you just putting in the minimum effort? 
Sounds to me like you have some personal issues that need to be addressed. A weekend BMQ can not and will not deal with these. It is up to the individual to put more of an effort in to stay motivated. It's a long haul and demands long hours. A lack of motivation during this time can and will reflect your motivation for your future in the Military. 
Some times a person cannot project their ability or their motivation  enough on a weekend course. It can be a hard buy in for a person  who may have a active full time commitments outside of the training. Again though this may not be the proper job for you. 

You want advice on what to write. 
Write your shortcomings as they were given to you. Then write what you did,  are doing and going to continue to do in order to fix the indicated short comings. 
Write how committed you are to becoming a Soldier, Sailor or Airmen. 
Then re state what you are doing to fix the issues. But remember the end of the day. It's your actions that speak more then words. If you have been counselled 3 times already for this behaviour, how genuine are you in following through with any real commitment.


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