# Grammar and Sentence Structures



## pronto

Hi All:
THIS IS NOT A TROLL - so relax, neither is it an incitement to flame war... 

I do have a question, though. I have noticed the levels of grammar and sentence structure is not what we expect or learned back "in the day". I am not referring to the lack of use of a spell-checker and the usual spelling mistakes. Those can be overlooked (although maybe that's a topic for later)... It is more the basics. I have read that it can be traced to the use of cell-phones, SMS, and text-messaging. Use of shorthand, abbreviations and SMS-speak are now creeping into common usage. For instance, when did it become acceptable to write "i" as a personal pronoun rather than "I"? I must have missed that memo, but it is very common here, on other Bulletin Boards, and in MS Messenger exchanges.

If you review some of the emails here, it would appear that high school students and freshly-minted grads have very little sense of sentence structure, spelling, and have only a passing acquaintance with clarity of message. Were I a recruiter, I'd seriously question their intelligence and the education systems' "outcomes"... *I know this is completely untrue, but I remain confused*.

Can any of you tell me if teachers are accepting acronyms and abbreviations in schools? Do they teach grammar and spelling? My daughters speak reasonably well, but we had to educate them outside of school in grammar. 

Personally, I can understand the language evolving, and changing, and I follow the gist of what is being said, but I have a hard time with my eyes... They see the mistakes and mis-interpret them as a lack of education. I know that this is not necessarily the case! How do recruiters get around this? They are of a similar age to me, and must struggle with the same issues. I have an almost 12 year old son, for whom I am concerned... His attention to spelling and grammar is, at best, enlightened boredom!  ;D Hell - in a couple of years he may be here looking for information. I would not want someone to think him unsuitable.

I suspect that this is a good place to ask the question, because there should be a good cross-section of education systems/provinces here as well as some recruiters.

Cheers!


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## Island Ryhno

Product of the ages I believe Pronto. I've only been out of high school for ten years and the change in communication has been enormous. "Back in the day" as you said, the internet, cell phones et al were just coming on board. Over the past decade through the use of internet, sms etc, misspelled words, self invented short hand and acronyms have become the norm in society. It seems the people who have the biggest problem with the change are those of us whom have been out of high school longer than five years. My father in law is an environmental engineer with a major company and he gets many resumes coming his way, he has stated numerous times that if the grammar etc is bad he just chucks it. If you can't put a proper sentence together...well I'm sure you get his drift. I did all advance placement courses throughout highschool, including language arts. I don't think that course was a high school requirement and in my view should be a minimum prerequisite for graduation. Also I believe anyone who goes on to post secondary education should have to do a language arts course as well, again as a minimum requirement for graduation. In the meantime, I'm LOL, and you can LMFAO.  ;D


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## Jordan411

Having graduated High School last year I know that they definitely look down on "internet talk". Using "i", "u", "ur" and others is definitely not acceptable in school.   I notice that most who have grown up with using the internet and messenger services are quite comfortable using the "internet talk" while others who had to learn how to use the internet later in life see it as uneducated.   Personally, I use both; it just depends on who I'm talking to.   On a different note I've seen a few translator services on the internet that make legible writing turn into "12 year old girl writing" which included excessive amounts of LOLZ OMG LMFAO PZ and all the others you can think of.


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## Thirstyson

Keep in mind that these are all examples of personal communications, where spelling, grammar, punctuation etc. take a back seat to efficiency.

Most people who write like this can write just fine when needed (they all passed high school writing the same essays as you did). There just isn't any incentive to write properly most of the time and many dont see it as bad form posting to a forum in this manner. I'd argue that army.ca has the LEAST amount of 1337 speak of any forum I know.

I'd even argue that it can slightly improve one's understanding languages by making someone think about grammar (and how to get away without using it) in the first place. 

Basically I agree with Jordan411.

I want to fly a rofflecopter when I grow up.

ps: plz add rofflecopter to army.ca dictionary k thx by.


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## MdB

I agree with comments on language level. In more official communications, people tend to use a proper grammar and sentence structure. In boards, chat, SMS and the like, it's more a matter of daily and casual language. For most people, you don't speak like you write, it's much more elaborated and a higher level.

Now, I think people can write without grammar errors and not have a good sentence structure. This is due to reading. Or lack of in this case. When you read daily, or often, you can recognize sentence structure and logical development of ideas. Therefore, you more able to reuse these patterns that you're use to. You can also have a proper grammar and distinguish homonyms.

And, you guys on the english side of this site have the spell checkers, there's none on the french side. French grammar is more elaborated than the english one and you should see the horrors that come up on the board... Once, I just couldn't read what was written. ??? (love this smiley)

I'm the living proof that reading has an effect on grammar and sentence structure (though I need more practice in english) in that I can master (mostly) a foreign language and sometimes better than people whose english language is their mother one. (not sure about this structure but it would sound good in French, haha ;D)

Eh!?


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## Kunu

For most in my generation, the standards of grammer, spelling, capitalization, acronym use, etc. definitely shift once something is done online in any way.   From my observations, I can see the following rationale for doing so:

Efficiency: chatting with multiple people over MSN while working on an assignment and browsing some websites arguably discourages cumbersome, "unabridged" language.

Rebelling: arbitrarily going against social norms like proper spelling, grammer, capitalization, etc. is always cool; it doesn't matter how much merit the social norm has.   Has anyone noticed how many rap, oops, hip-hop artists have "bastardized" names like Ludacris, Makaveli, and Xzibit?

Conformity: I have personally been berated by friends (not seriously, of course) for my use of proper, standard English when chatting. I'm sure enough others have just decided to give in.   

Anyways, this is just two cents from a kid who is not representative of the norm in most ways, and also won/placed in a few spelling bees back in the day.


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## pronto

Interesting proposition - one changes one's message style based on the medium, to paraphrase: "essays inculcate proper grammar, and the internet inculcates shorthand"

I guess Marshall McLuhan was right!... The medium is the message no? > Thanks for the insights, very interesting, and certainly re-raising my hopes...

Cheers

By the way - I had an ARPA (Advanced Research Projects Agency) account, so I guess I grew up with the internet - Lord help me. For you young 'uns, ARPA was the internet before there was an internet!


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## RossF

1t'5 all goood,,, yo!!!11


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## FredDaHead

I think what needs to be realized is that "kids" (ie, young adults/late teens) consider the net and reality as different entities. Several people I know who write awefully online (1337-speak, shorthand, etc) write perfectly in real life, particularly in school or official situations. We (my generation) don't care when we're chatting online whether someone writes "u" or "you." (It bugs me personally, but generally it doesn't matter)

It doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. You can be dumb and write well, and you can be a genious and have the literary talent of a three-year old autistic child. (No offense to autistic people, I'm using it as an example)

This has all been said before, but to reiterate: online, it just doesn't matter. Especially in text messaging (MSN, or AOL--although that one might be due to the intelligence of the people using it) where you don't want to look like you could win the Pulitzer, you just want to get your point across. Considering most of the internet "chatting" that is done, is done between friends, it's just seen as useless to write very well.

Likewise, do you speak the same way with your friends as you do when speaking in public? (Well, it's possible but I doubt it)

Also, as has been previously stated, this forum has a comparatively high level of writing. People with no clue what punctuation or paragraphs are, are very rare here. (At least out of the cadet forum )

Finally, like someone else mentionned, those of us who do make an effort, are made fun of, or are just made to feel weird when other people write a 12-word sentence in 7 characters, while we type out the whole thing with proper grammar and spelling. I still try to maintain good English, but not as much as I could.

-Fred


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## pronto

Well, Frederick, I write as I speak, and I have done quite well, and I suspect there are more of us out there than one thinks! I speak to hundreds and sometimes thousands, and they understand me pretty well (sometimes they even ask for notes!)  

Now, if someone pokes fun at you when you write correctly, they are in error! You seem to make your points eloquently, and a hearty well done from us dinosaurs. If it bugs you personally, then just type in proper English yourself, and leave 1337 to them. Heck, I'd probably hire you before them, so there!

Just a thought for those who "see it as useless to write very well" - If you know how to type reasonably well, there is no need to write "u r a smrt dude", when "you are a smart dude" comes out just as fast! If the so-called internet generation grew up using 1337 speak, on-line chatting, and the like, then I'll bet you they can type pretty darned well.

Hang in there!


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## Mike Bobbitt

I'm of the "old school" where I type like I speak, however it's been interesting to hear both sides of the story. My personal take on it is, while I understand the desire for efficiency, most of the discussions here require people to set up and defend a coherent argument. Now again, I may be showing my age here, but an argument consisting of netspeak is going to generally be less credible to me than one in "longhand." I probably shouldn't carry that bias, but to me if the point's worth making, it's worth the time to write it out legibly and professionally. 


Cheers
Mike

P.S. Definitely hit the spell check button on this one out of paranoia!


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## WO2 Gubbels

I graduated school last year, and went back for my grade 13.  I took all the highend classes, and spelling/grammer is very important.  I admit I am not perfect, but I do use msn on a daily basis.  I find that some people use alot of short forms, they tend to over use the lol, LOL, etc, which I find very annoying.  For the most part, many of my friends write the way they speak, with a few short forms such as u, g2g, ttul8er, and btw.  Those are the only ones that comes to mind.  I never see them written in school, especially not in my classes.  But I could see that the level of spelling and grammer are totally different for the lower level classes.  

 Gubbels


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## Zombie

Another reason to consider is software applications that auto-correct spelling mistakes as you're typing. If I spell _receive_ wrong every time I type it, I would never know. I also think it is more difficult to write with errors than to write without. In the time it takes to decide how to incorrectly spell a word, I could have already typed it out. 

I also see the use of smileys to be the same as mutilating English to save time. Instead of expressing your feeling through words, just throw in a happy face or other smiley to save you from providing the description. Not saying I don't use smileys - I definitely do - just saying it's the same thing.


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## Island Ryhno

I before E except after C, how's that Zombie!  ;D Here is an old school Newfoundland one for you,

Teacher: Johnny, what is a metaphor

Johnny: Cows; miss!


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## Zombie

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> I before E except after C, how's that Zombie!   ;D



It must the way I type, but every time I (intend to) type _receive_, it comes out _recieve_ and gets auto-corrected and that saying runs through my brain... ;D


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## MdB

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> I probably shouldn't carry that bias, but to me if the point's worth making, it's worth the time to write it out legibly and professionally.



You are right, Sir. Do it right, or don't do it.


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## Britney Spears

Instead of prostituting my literacy to every little thread that comes along like the rest of you whores,  I am selective in what I read, and my rules filter out 90% of the less than useful threads and posts out there, making my army.ca experience much more enjoyable.

I don't read:

- Threads with stupid, non-descriptive titles. I don't know why this isn't in the board rules. Who the heck would read a thread titled "everyone must read this" or "HELP needed" or "Can anyone give me info"? Are you selling penis enlargement pills or Nigerian bank accounts? Sounds like it to me. In my opinion all such threads should be deleted and their authors placed on probation.

- Posts with silly abbieviations and l33tspeak.

- Posts with more than 3 different types of smilies. 

- Posts that are completely lacking in attention to spelling and grammar. If you post barely intelligable chickenscratch and your name is not *KevinB*, I have no time to decypher it.

If I wanted to subject myself to the above stupidity I would have applied to be a mod. At least then the increased sex appeal would offset the loss of brain cells.


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## USSRsovietsnake

Most younger people these days don't view the internet, chat rooms or forums as being a personal form of communication so they talk to each other as if they did not need these peoples respect or need to show the result of 12+ school years to a stranger in their minds. It is probable true that when writting something on paper for school or anything else for that matter that the spelling and grammer would be much better or in the worst case at least recognizable. Concerning kids using cell phones and text messaging I'd have to say that they do not need such devices because most of their calls are to friends who live a block away.


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## DJ

I will admit that I do use shorthand but mainly for my own personal notes, which will be read soley by myself, or in written conversation with people who know me and also know that I'm not a complete dumbass.  Being able to communicate properly is a common indicator of intelligence; some form of vocabulary/writing is a vital component of most exams such as the CFAT.  

And from a person who has a self-diagnosed grammar/spelling editing complex: FOR THE LOVE OF WHATEVER YOU FIND HOLY, USE THE SPELLCHEKCER AND PROOF YOUR POSTS.  

DJ


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## BDTyre

I've noticed that in the UK, they have dubbed shorthand has "f**kwad," indicating a general dislike for its useage and a disdain for those that use it on a regular basis.

Admittedly, it does have limited uses, especially in text messagining, when you want to get a message out quickly.  Other than that, I prefer to type like I talk: properly.


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## Island Ryhno

Regarding the sms, I just upgraded to a Nokia 6820, very pretty smart phone! The phone actually flips open and has a QWERTY keyboard so I can type full messages easily, instead of sms babble!


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## USSRsovietsnake

Call me and thousands of others old fashioned but i prefer to use the phone as it was used for many years prior to text messaging.


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## 45506445210414924

wow this is a good topic, just finished reading all of these messages and it made me sit back and think of the way I write and talk. The more I think about it (as a high school student just about to graduate) I wonder why my teachers never mentioned anything about puncture and sentence formality. The majority of the time she was going on about how her and her dog were abducted by aliens! 

This seems to be a really big problem for me because I'm stuck in the "MSN LANGUAGE" and it is effecting EVERYTHING, for example, the other day i was sitting down and filling out this application form and i remember one of the questions asked "Explain a difficult situation and how you managed it", i wrote the answer out properly but had millions of chicken scratches scratching out the words "u" "urs" "i" I think i even put "lol" on it too. Needless to say I still haven't received a call back ha ha. Anyways, what could one do to possibly improve his/her grammar, punctuality, sentence structure??? I passed my grade 12 English at a college level with a 72% should one read more?? spend more time proofreading (another point, someone had mentioned about word processors and how they automatically correct the words which is another major factor in this as it seems to come in hand alot with me). 

I'd greatly appreciate some kind of feedback as the last thing i could possibly want is 5 years ahead, going to apply for a police officer writing " I learnd skewl @ college n it tot me gud" ha ha

Anyways good topic, it's taken me about 20 minutes to write this ha ha so lets hit this spell check!


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## pronto

You know, there are lots of resources available to people who genuinely wish to improve their diction, grammar and spelling. (Your dog-loving teacher does frighten me a tad though!). The web itself is full of free pages and texts on grammar and how to construct a sentence legibly, you can look at 'em, but I am not sure they'd be useful to anyone.

They all seem to assume a more than passing acquaintance with English, a vocabulary a wee bit more than the average, and a predilection for slogging through texts.

I'll give you a strategy which may work though:
   1. Buy a small two volume encyclopedia (at a used book store if funds are tight)
   2. Buy an OED (Oxford English Dictionary) - not the two volume vellum one - that's really expensive!
   3. Read one or two pages of the encyclopedia every day (before bed)
   4. Look up unknown words in the dictionary when you find them
   5. Repeat as required, or until you are finished the encyclopedia; and neat, new facts spew out of your
            ears.

As well: read. Read a lot. Read vociferously. Read boatloads of stuff. You will develop a sense of sentence styles and structures by seeing how others do it, I promise you. I cannot over-emphasise the reading bit!. Anything will do, by the way. Science Fiction, Crime, Drama, Harlequins, et cetera. 

Lastly - investigate Toastmasters and/or Dale Carnegie. The concept, and indeed the courses, may seem hokey - but they work! The more you speak in public, the more confident you become, and strangely enough, the better you will become at composition too!

Sounds like you are already on the way. Go for it - I'd hire you.


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## Zombie

Mike F said:
			
		

> wow this is a good topic, just finished reading all of these messages and it made me sit back and think of the way I write and talk. The more I think about it (as a high school student just about to graduate) I wonder why my teachers never mentioned anything about puncture and sentence formality. The majority of the time she was going on about how her and her dog were abducted by aliens!
> 
> This seems to be a really big problem for me because I'm stuck in the "MSN LANGUAGE" and it is effecting EVERYTHING, for example, the other day i was sitting down and filling out this application form and i remember one of the questions asked "Explain a difficult situation and how you managed it", i wrote the answer out properly but had millions of chicken scratches scratching out the words "u" "urs" "i" I think i even put "lol" on it too. Needless to say I still haven't received a call back ha ha. Anyways, what could one do to possibly improve his/her grammar, punctuality, sentence structure??? I passed my grade 12 English at a college level with a 72% should one read more?? spend more time proofreading (another point, someone had mentioned about word processors and how they automatically correct the words which is another major factor in this as it seems to come in hand alot with me).
> 
> I'd greatly appreciate some kind of feedback as the last thing i could possibly want is 5 years ahead, going to apply for a police officer writing " I learnd skewl @ college n it tot me gud" ha ha
> 
> Anyways good topic, it's taken me about 20 minutes to write this ha ha so lets hit this spell check!



pronto has some great suggestions for you to develop your writing skills. If you're going to college, there are numerous classes you can take that will help as well. Realizing how and where this will affect your life and having the desire to improve puts you way ahead of others in your situation. Good Luck  

By the way, your writing is not that bad...I've seen much worse.


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## c4th

USSRsovietsnake said:
			
		

> Call me and thousands of others old fashioned but i prefer to use the phone as it was used for many years prior to text messaging.



Back in the day when there was a dial to dial with.   When more than one line meant more than one phone.   I remember being amazed at the portability of a friend's phone because he had a super long cord for the receiver.

I don't believe that people who demonstrate lousy writing skills on message boards are able to write coherently in more formal correspondence.   Not too long ago I had the pleasure of reading autobiographies of recruits I was training. Had been read aloud to me I would have sworn half were written in crayon.   The education level of my soldiers was between grade 12 and 1st year university.   The university students were not markedly better writers.   I have seen plenty of military correspondence and PER's that have been atrociously written.   Generally speaking, readers seem to make better writers.

Like any muscle the brain needs to exercise regularly and maybe just as importantly correctly.   BBS's and forums such as this are a great training tool for any essay writers.   If your thesis passes muster through the likes of a_majoor, infanteer, and pbi you will probably get at least a C-.


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## Michael Dorosh

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Instead of prostituting my literacy to every little thread that comes along like the rest of you whores,   I am selective in what I read, and my rules filter out 90% of the less than useful threads and posts out there, making my army.ca experience much more enjoyable.
> 
> I don't read:
> 
> - Threads with stupid, non-descriptive titles. I don't know why this isn't in the board rules. Who the heck would read a thread titled "everyone must read this" or "HELP needed" or "Can anyone give me info"? Are you selling penis enlargement pills or Nigerian bank accounts? Sounds like it to me. In my opinion all such threads should be deleted and their authors placed on probation.
> 
> - Posts with silly abbieviations and l33tspeak.
> 
> - Posts with more than 3 different types of smilies.
> 
> - Posts that are completely lacking in attention to spelling and grammar. If you post barely intelligable chickenscratch and your name is not *KevinB*, I have no time to decypher it.
> 
> If I wanted to subject myself to the above stupidity I would have applied to be a mod. At least then the increased sex appeal would offset the loss of brain cells.



You dress like the picture in your avatar and call _us_ whores?  

I'm guessing you and *KevinB* are tight, if not, I'd hate to see you crossing the line with insults.  I'd be careful how you characterize other posters at army.ca also - although I generally follow the same guidelines as you do - anything with three or more smileys I ignore, and tune out poorly spelled posts, etc.  I would like to think I'm more charitable than judging intelligence based on spelling and grammar structure - certainly some of the most experienced soldiers tend to lack formal schooling in such things, I am thinking of the gentlemen who may have retired in the past couple of decades who grew up when university or even high school education was not so common.  They still have a lot of wisdom to add to the mix - just unfortunately need a bit of patience when we go to review their thoughts.

But thank you for acknowledging the hard work and challenges that we mods go through to make this a better place for you.  Now go put a shirt on.


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## c4th

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> It's great to be a moderator. ;D (sorry - couldn't resist - edited by Moderator)



And quoting the entire text portion of a post is as annoying as starting a one sentence paragraph with a conjunctive.


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## dutchie

c4th said:
			
		

> And quoting the entire text portion of a post is as annoying as starting a one sentence paragraph with a conjunctive.



LMFAO!

I would have typed that out in proper english, but I like irony.


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## c4th

;D Cute.

Ref Mod.  1 rd FFE.


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## dutchie

c4th said:
			
		

> ;D Cute.
> 
> Ref Mod.  1 rd FFE.



Ok, now I really am LMFAO...

(_Hears sound of mortar bomb followed by screaming._)


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## dutchie

Rounds complete.


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## Kal

In my opinion, I believe the use of shorthand, l33tspeek, etc., is just the english language evolving. A few years ago, I was reading an article in which some inter-city schools in the U.S., are teaching Ebonics because it has become so commonplace.   The manner of speech in which people communicated fifty years ago, would have been considered crude by the standards of 200 years ago.   I personally don't like the idea of misspelling words or using improper grammer, but accept the fact the words and spoken language will continue to change in meaning and definition.


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## Michael Dorosh

Kal said:
			
		

> I personally don't like the idea of misspelling words or using improper grammer,



Who wants to be first? ;D


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## RCA

Brevity and Clarity are key points. Take a business communication crse, or get hold a text. Writing a business letter or doing a proposal teaches a lot. Try composing a letter denying someone credit, while keeping their business.

As for language evolving, I have my doubts. In in the money world where it really counts, I don't see or forsee the changes.


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## Kal

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Who wants to be first? ;D



   You got me.      I meant intentionally misspelling, I always had a problem in remembering the spelling for grammar.   

EDIT - Nothing came up in the spell check in my original post, though.


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## Island Ryhno

That course was called Business 2000 here at MUN and I hated it.      It did help prepare me for the business world however, "out there" if you hand somebody a crap proposal etc, you will have your behind handed to you. Jeez I'm loquacious!


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## Zombie

Kal said:
			
		

> In my opinion, I believe the use of shorthand, l33tspeek, etc., is just the english language evolving.



I wouldn't call it evolution. Evolution implies going from a state of simplicity to one of complexity, making these trends the polar opposite of evolution.


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## pronto

This is not the English language evolving! Ebonics, a failed experiment in the judgement of a bunch of linguists, and Bill Cosby, is more akin to a dialect, or accent. Web-shorthand is not, and never will be an effective method of transmitting concepts (complex or simple). There simply aren't enough "words" in the language. True shorthand (Gregg, Pitman, et al) has a syntax and lexicon. 

God help me, I just dated myself - who out there even remembers Pitman shorthand? Our younger board confreres may have a point when they say "Use web-speak for my buds on the web" and use proper English when communicating to a broad (albeit less "hip") audience. However, (and this is an huge however), RCA is accurate: in finance, politics, senior management, et cetera, web speak will never suffice - it has too many shortcomings. I would toss any resume coming my way if is is not properly written, follows the rules of Grammar, makes its points quickly and concisely, and has a general tone of competence.

It may not sound fair boys and girls, but I have the jobs, and I can hire whomever I want - my peers agree with me. Hell - they hate visible piercing and tattoos. (I don't take it quite that far). I do, however, favour ex-military - so I make up for them. heh heh - I have a boatload of them in my shop.

Cheers all


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## oyaguy

pronto said:
			
		

> Web-shorthand is not, and never will be an effective method of transmitting concepts (complex or simple).


Is it really a shorthand? When I was into the whole MSN messenger thing, my friends didn't bother, just to save themselves a little time, like ignoring punctuation and the shift key. Nothing that would compare to what a stenographer, for example, is required to do. Besides, how much does your average high school student need to know to effectively transmit the various minutiae of high school crushes, break-ups, and exams to study.

I personally think {I don't use IMHO, which more effectively translates to, "Why I think you're dumb, and I am smarter than you, but don't be offended anyway"  , kidding} grammar deficiencies on the internet has seven main reasons:

1. No one is grading, no one is being marked. Nothing is riding on the outcome of this comment, my blog, etc... and if you think I am an idiot, does it really matter? I'll probably never meet you, and if we did, would either of us know it?
2. Personal ticks. To save my life, I cannot spell villain correctly. I use commas too much, I am too verbose, and my subject wanders a bit. Passive voice. etc...
3. The fact that what goes on the internet is almost always the first draft. Unless you have a doctorate in English, your first draft on everything will be crap. Even then, I bet most English professors still profreed. Reading it once over too, isn't profreeding.
4. Culture. Internet culture is different. Some good, some bad. Even this forum has its own culture. People here throw out an alphabet soup of acronyms that isn't very accessible to the layman, and without any consideration to the layman either. 
5. English teachers don't actually teach everything there is about English, grammar included. Comma splices, fragments, dangling modifiers, tense shifts are a few common grammar mistakes that don't really pop up on your radar screen till you're being marked. None of these are helped by number 3.
6. The written language of English itself, is almost a language unto itself. There are conventions that do not apply to spoken English, and things that even a well educated and able speaker can get away with in spoken English, are glaringly obvious in written English. Almost any speech or quotes a person sees in the newspapers will have portions edited out, mostly the humming and hawing everyone does in normal speech.  In turn there are the various rules that don't apply to English very well. Split infinitives for example is a rule from Latin; which is a language that can never have split infinitives. I do not know any Latin, but French is similar. Avoir: to have. Avoir and French verbs are structurally impossible to split. Then there are the conventions which not even those English professors can resolve. Bridget Jones's Diary? Bridget Jones' Diary? Take your pick.
6. Then there's the fact that written English is at times completely inadequate to convey spoken speech. Sarcasm is practically impossible without resorting to [sarcasm] or other cues. In turn, written English can be subtle to the point that a person who reads a passage, and misses one comma or one word can completely change how that person perceives that passage.
7. Rose tinted glasses. There has never been forum in which everyone with a modicum of ability to write their language, could. Never. Not in the 1st century A.D., not in the 19th. century, and not in most of the 20th century. Everything written down before the late 20th century was from the best educated classes of the world.  The internet, not so much.

As for possible decline in language skills outside the internet, I think one reason might be because the standard in language ability is no longer high school but university. A Bachelors in whatever is the new High School Diploma. 

Also, to Mr. Pronto. Reading can be overrated sometimes. For the longest time, I thought Pint, was pronounced like Dint with a P. 


Interesting forum however.


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## pronto

Interesting points, I'd love to hear RCAs thoughts on this too!. I've never even considered that the English language in its written form is inadequate to any purpose. I haven't had any difficulties, but then I rarely resort to sarcasm, and I speak very much as I write. 

You are 100% correct - a Bachelors is the new senior matriculation. The problem for me, however,  is that High School should be the new junior matriculation, and some familiarity with the language is devoutly to be wished. 30 years ago, a "junior matric" offered tremendous skills. It can still be that way. Are we saying that in 30 years we've become less intelligent? I think not. 

So why do we accept less from our high school grads and teachers? I recently read a report which reviewed standardised IQs, and indicated that the baselines are increasing - therefore one would naturally assume that levels of literacy and capabilities would correspondingly increase. I see no reason why this is impossible - I think the era of "every one is a winner" and "every one must pass the grade" has diluted the end result. Thoughts?

Interesting point regarding class - yes - 200 years ago only the upper classes were literate. But now with access to education, increasing baselines of intelligence (if you believe that) why can't the average high school grad write a resume, essay, paraphrase or commentary?

I think English teachers are not teaching English. I speak Latin, French, English, and have a passing acquaintance with some others. Languages have rules. Split infinitives are not allowed in English, Latin and French, but are in German (Thank you CFB Lahr!) 

Bridget Jones' Diary means more than one Bridget Jones has collaborated on a diary
Bridget Jones' Diaries means more than one Bridget Jones collaborated on more than one diary
Bridget Jone's Diary means the diary of Bridget Jones

Seems straightforward to me.  >

I respectfully disagree - reading is never overrated. I've read a lot of crap, and always managed to get something out of it.  Pronunciation issues can be either dealt with via dictionaries, parental correction, friendly correction, or humiliation. (There is always someone willing to humiliate you, isn't there?)


----------



## Kal

Zombie said:
			
		

> I wouldn't call it evolution. Evolution implies going from a state of simplicity to one of complexity, making these trends the polar opposite of evolution.



    I may sound argumentative, but I don't mean it.  The act of evolution isn't always to a more advanced state, or it may be in one area, but may take a step back in another. A chemical reaction would be an evolution, yet not every reaction advances into a superior form.  I always understood evolution to mean a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage or any process of change over time.

     I believe there will always be the sub-cultures of a mainstream, standard language.  It would be naive to only look look at the past 50 years of spoken language and decide what the current state is, or isn't'.  Let's ask this up again in 200 years and debate it then.... ;D


----------



## oyaguy

You're kind of correct, except the surname, Jones, always has the S. So to indicate the possessive, in English, we add an apostrophe S. But it looks weird having the S back to back. I personally prefer Jones' just for brevity and the fact it looks more even. Some would disagree.

I also think the prohibition against split infinitives is dumb. The rule is arbitrary and doesn't really make sense to me.

As for our matriculation system, I live in Alberta. For anyone thinking about going to university here, you must have English 30, which is grade twelve English. There is also another grade twelve English course that is English 33 {or some other number}. From your point of view Mr. Pronto, English 30 would be the more "pure" English stream in high school. Looking back at my High, Junior, and Elementary school years, in terms of learning how to use English, I probably should have done more essay writing. It isn't until I got to High School when essays started to count, though to be fair to my grade 9 English teacher, she was a stickler for language. 

I think for most teachers, at all levels, its easier to administer tests, multiple choice, long answer etc... than to assign essays. I think this is unfortunate because the only way students will learn how to use English, is by using English. Reading {I was kidding in saying its overrated} and above all, writing is necessary to gain a grasp of English that would be denied to people who only speak English. In turn it's not enough that the basic rules of grammar are taught, they must be also be understood by the students. English teachers should do this by assigning as many essays as possible. I don't think elementary is too soon to be giving kids essays.

Additionally, other classes should make use of essays. In High School, English and Social Studies {an amalgam of history, geography and some Social Sciences} were the only courses that made use of essays. I think all classes should, to some degree, use essays. Chemistry, and Math teachers, for example, could use essays. Not subjects that one normally writes for in an essay format, and would require some creativity from the teachers. Teachers could probably call them "research papers". Stuff like, look up and research the properties, uses, and other relevant knowledge regarding Bismuth. Or pick a mathematician and explain why he is important, etc... 

In general though, when it comes to High School, I think it gravitates towards the more "hard" sciences. I could have taken Chemistry 30, Physics 30, Science 30, Math 30, Math 31{Calculus}. Softer subjects like History, for example, doesn't really exist anymore, except in the weird amalgam of Social Studies.

Of course, there is another entire set of courses, the 33 courses, which will get you your high school diploma, but doesn't give that graduate many requirements for several post-secondary institutions. 

"I think the era of "every one is a winner" and "every one must pass the grade" has diluted the end result. Thoughts?"

You have a point, but it wasn't like I was taking up the extra slack for people who may or may not have deserved to be in the same grade as me. When you get to high school, you could be a grade twelve student taking grade ten courses, but unless you had the required courses and your 100 credits {I graduated with 130 something, it's not that hard} you wouldn't get your high school diploma which is what really counts.


----------



## Gramps

While reading through the many many threads here, I have come to the conclusion that there is a large number of people who don't know how to spell (this is not really a big deal, everyone makes spelling errors). What does bother me is the use of certain words and their definitions that, when used improperly will render an argument or a point that someone is trying to make completely useless or change the meaning all together. Here are some examples.

There, Their and They're all sound similar but have three completely different meanings. Other common ones are through and threw,   wear, where and were (I cant even start to explain what is wrong with these three), wich and which, wench and winch,  and many many more.

Is it just me or has everyone become lazy when it comes to writing, speaking and even reading English. I can understand if English is not your native tongue but for those who are English speaking these types of mistakes are appalling. 

I'm not trying to start any type of "flame war" here but I think people should be a little more aware of what they are trying to say, Thats just my opinion though. Cheers.


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## Guy. E

Ahhhh, this wonderfull spell check device, Gods gift to the internet. It is far too bad that when i type in for example CFB Shilo, the spell check wants to call it "Shiloh"... 

I can admit to the fact that I was never an expert in the subject of the english language. My english mark has always been average, perhaps a little below. Is that a fault of the Manitoba Educational System? Is it me not caring enough? could it be a problem with the absence of positive enforcement when learning to read and write an early age?, or could it be a physiological quirk in my brain that i cant spell like the little kids on T.V, but I can solve most any mechanical, physical and spacial problems I can do it like it was nothing at all. 

I know people who can write books and ace every single high school final exam, but if they had to replace a wheel bearing in the brake rotor of a car, they wold think the first step is to look in the glove box. All of this boils down to the biological structure of your brain and how work inside. Its too bad i can get more information by looking over something and asking a few questions or some pictures with captions as opposed to reading a twenty page essay with a two hour exam on the same thing.


I agree with you that there are far too many people using short hand in the professional world. This is my mistake for thinking that this is a relaxed semi unprofessional environment. Unfortunately that is the way that the modern world is evolving and there is nothing you can do no matter how hard you toy to regulate it or enforce grammatical rules.


----------



## George Wallace

This is a good thread for many posters who have problems accepting the fact that good spelling, grammar and sentence structure are still relevant to communication skills today.  Still relevant in applying for a job.  If you are joining the CF, or doing an OT, you will have to pass the CFAT.  There are questions on it that require good language skills.  If you don't have them, you may fail.  If you fail, then perhaps your hopes and dreams will be squashed.  Your choice.  Will you be able to communicate like a 'Professional' or a uneducated 'hick'?


----------



## Donut

Guy. E said:
			
		

> I agree with you that there are far too many people using short hand in the professional world. This is my mistake for thinking that this is a relaxed semi unprofessional environment. Unfortunately that is the way that the modern world is evolving and there is nothing you can do no matter how hard you toy to regulate it or enforce grammatical rules.



Guy, not to further take this thread off-course, but it's quiet clearly spelled out in the conduct guidelines what level of written communication is expected here;  As well, Mike and his DS have managed to regulate this site fairly well over the past decade+ of his operation here, and I, for one, wouldn't bother being here if it wasn't as professional and well run as it is.

And now back to your regular programming.

DF


----------



## mudgunner49

Guy. E said:
			
		

> Ahhhh, this wonderfull spell check device, Gods gift to the internet. It is far too bad that when i type in for example CFB Shilo, the spell check wants to call it "Shiloh"...
> 
> I can admit to the fact that I was never an expert in the subject of the english language. My english mark has always been average, perhaps a little below. Is that a fault of the Manitoba Educational System? Is it me not caring enough? could it be a problem with the absence of positive enforcement when learning to read and write an early age?, or could it be a physiological quirk in my brain that i cant spell like the little kids on T.V, but I can solve most any mechanical, physical and spacial problems I can do it like it was nothing at all.
> 
> I know people who can write books and ace every single high school final exam, but *if they had to replace a wheel bearing in the brake rotor of a car*, they wold think the first step is to look in the glove box. All of this boils down to the biological structure of your brain and how work inside. Its too bad i can get more information by looking over something and asking a few questions or some pictures with captions as opposed to reading a twenty page essay with a two hour exam on the same thing.
> 
> 
> I agree with you that there are far too many people using short hand in the professional world. This is my mistake for thinking that this is a relaxed semi unprofessional environment. Unfortunately that is the way that the modern world is evolving and there is nothing you can do no matter how hard you toy to regulate it or enforce grammatical rules.



Dude,

You failed Automechanics 101, didn't you???  The wheel bearing is not "in the brake rotor of the car"...

if you're going to use an analogy - use a *good/accurate * analogy...


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## Guy. E

well darn it all, that just sucks. 


Brake Rotors:






Wheel bearing in the break rotor:






Wheel bearings:







I dident take Power Mech, I graduated with a technical certificate in Computer Aided Design. 


BTW, the CFAT was a breeze.


( I am done with this thread now)


----------



## Fishbone Jones

In muddgunner49's defence, many brake rotors are separate, and slip over the hub. The wheel bearing is contained within the hub. The above pictures are not indicitive of all situations.


----------



## ChopperHead

Well as someone who has gotten in trouble a bit about grammer and spelling, I can honestly say that I didn't bother to spell right or correct grammar or anything because I don't care. 
   I absolutely hate grammar and spelling and I don't feel It an issue how someone spells something when it's obvious what they are saying, Ex: she ran over their. Everyone here knows that means the girl went over THERE it's not confusing and if it can be understood what the person is saying then don't worry about it.
  MSN speak is entirely diffrent and I wont get into that. I now try to use proper grammar and spelling because of being talked to by some mods and getting into a fight with someone. thats fine, I can use proper grammar but I just choose not to on the internet as I don't see the point. 
  Also whether someone is good at grammar or spelling etc really doesn't reflect on how intelligent the person is, everyone has weaknesses and things they aren't good at and not everyone cares whether or not they can spell or what their grammar is like.


----------



## George Wallace

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> .............. I can use proper grammar but I just choose not to on the internet as I don't see the point.


Obviously you are missing the point.  It is others who "see the point" and make their minds up of who you are.  Your 'point' is the impression that they get of you.  It may in the end affect whether or not you get the position you may apply for sometime in the future. 



			
				ChopperHead said:
			
		

> Also whether someone is good at grammar or spelling etc really doesn't reflect on how intelligent the person is, everyone has weaknesses and things they aren't good at and not everyone cares whether or not they can spell or what their grammar is like.


Actually it is usually a good indication on how intelligent a person is, how professional they will act, and if they will make a good person to hire who will be able to correspond efficiently and effectively.  If you want to get into a Profession that requires writting of Technical or Scientific papers, you will require good writing skills.  Many Universities have a problem in that they are graduating 'illiterate' students, who have difficulty with these subjects.  Maybe that is why so many with several Degrees, land up driving Cabs.  In the end it does 'reflect' on what people will think about you.


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## ChopperHead

yes and if i was applying for a job or wrighting a university paper or whatever then I would wright properly and take the time to cross my T's and dot my I's. My resume happens to be very well written and so are my essays, reports etc.

   My post was referring exclusively to this forum. If someone were to give me a resume full of mistakes and what not I might think twice about giving that person a job which is fine because applying for a job is a situation where proper grammar, spelling etc is required. This however is not a Job interview or a university paper. 

  Someone might be the smartest person in the world but because they choose to not bother proof reading everything they wright on an internet forum that means they are not as intelligent as someone who does? I think not.

   thats what i meant about some people are just not good at that sorta thing and don't want to take the time to correct it when it really doesnt matter, that doesnt reflect how smart someone is Nor does it mean that the people who jump around from thread to thread correcting everyones mistakes like it's their sole mission in life are very intelligent.


----------



## George Wallace

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> My post was referring exclusively to this forum. If someone were to give me a resume full of mistakes and what not I might think twice about giving that person a job which is fine because applying for a job is a situation where proper grammar, spelling etc is required. This however is not a Job interview or a university paper.


As we are trying to keep this a 'Professional' site, your lack of concern for grammar, spelling, sentence structure and bad attitude, reflect in everything you post.  The members with the knowledge and experience here, look down on that type of posting and have the impression that you are not knowledgable, educated and have a low opinion of you.  Why?  The answer lays in the way you post.  So, yes, the way you communicate does reflect on how we think of you.  Do you get that point yet?  



			
				ChopperHead said:
			
		

> Someone might be the smartest person in the world but because they choose to not bother proof reading everything they wright on an internet forum that means they are not as intelligent as someone who does? I think not.


 You have yet to prove that.



			
				ChopperHead said:
			
		

> thats what i meant about some people are just not good at that sorta thing and don't want to take the time to correct it when it really doesnt matter, that doesnt reflect how smart someone is Nor does it mean that the people who jump around from thread to thread correcting everyones mistakes like it's their sole mission in life are very intelligent.


Sorry to hurt your sensibilities, but as a Moderator and Staff on this site, it is one of my responsibilities to do this.  Some day, you too, may find out what it is like to have responsibilities and abilities to use good writing techniques.  I am sure that although your Resume may be very well written, you didn't do it yourself, but instead you paid a professional to do it.  But that is neither here nor there.


----------



## Slim

> Well as someone who has gotten in trouble a bit about grammer and spelling, I can honestly say that I didn't bother to spell right or correct grammar or anything because I don't care.



Chopperhead

If you wish to post on this site you will use proper spelling grammer and sentence structure (within reason). These are the rules of the site and they will be maintained.

If you persist in breaking them (or any other rule) you will progress through the warning system until you find yourself banned. Again these are the rules.

The ball is in your court.

Slim
STAFF


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> My post was referring exclusively to this forum. If someone were to give me a resume full of mistakes and what not I might think twice about giving that person a job which is fine because applying for a job is a situation where proper grammar, spelling etc is required. This however is not a Job interview or a university paper.



You're absolutely right, it's not. The big difference that a university paper is seen only by your prof, who grades it and moves on. A post here on Army.ca will be indexed and searchable on the Internet for years (decades?) to come. It is quite literally a public record - possibly the largest record - of your actions on the Internet. Given technology like The Wayback Machine, it is not unreasonable that your grandkids will one day be reading what you are posting today.

I realize most users here don't care (or possibly just don't know) about the long-term impression they leave on the Internet, but I believe that's the point of this thread. Put your best foot forward, you're not doing it to put a smile on a Staff member's face, you're doing it to ensure your "permanent record" on the Internet accurately depicts your professionalism, intelligence and communications skills. Some may be happy to be seen is barely literate, but I believe most strive to higher goals.

I recognize the next (naive) argument is that nobody will know who Chopperhead is in a year, so what "he" posts will have no bearing on you later on. I think there is ample evidence to the contrary, and people put far too much faith in the thin veil of anonymity on the Internet.


----------



## CdnArtyWife

Oh, I want to add my two cents, but now I suddenly feel under pressure to type in perfect grammar and correct spelling... 

I have a fairly large vocabulary base, and for the most part, know the correct spelling for said vocabulary. My problem, as of late, could be directly correlated with being "out of practice" in using such vocabulary and grammar techniques. 

As a person who has been out of the work force for almost 10 years (for one reason or another) with the exception of a retail job here and there, I have not had regular opportunity to practice the grammar, spelling, and even vocabulary usage that would enable me to retain all of the knowledge base that I gained while in university.

I have my moments of pity for George "Dub-ya" for the amount of ridicule he receives for butchering the English language, especially when I have been guilty of doing nearly the same thing on several occasions. A fine example of this would be when I was being mildly teased by friends regarding my creative spelling and phonics when the C and X keys on my keyboard suddenly did not work. My friends joked around, calling me Russian as I used sentences such as: _After luntsh I kan't get out for my regularly skeduled run, bekause I have to go to FutureShop and get a new keyboard. My "see" and "eks" don't work!_ I told my friends they were encouragable...then they hopped on me...they knew I meant incorrigible. It is a good thing I can take the harmless ridicule, as I know there are times when I butcher the language, or "make up my own words" to mean something similar to a word or two that are actually out there, had been a part of my base vocabulary, but as a result of lack of use or practice, I just couldn't retrieve it from the vestiges of my brain coffers to use properly.

It is unfortunate that we, as a society, have become gravely dependant upon such devices as Spell Check, as even these programs do not catch mistakes such as context errors. 

Someone here mentioned that with all the internet, computer and MSN usage that the younger generations have access to today that they would be able to type out properly spelled sentences just as fast as the abbreviated ones. That is a fine theory, but, I would guess that not many people these days have been classically trained in typing either. The majority of people use the "hunt and peck" method of typing. They become increasingly adept at it and ever faster, but if you were to ask  the same folk to use the "home" keys and not look at the screen or keyboard while they type, rather the document from which they are following, you will find they have difficulty. I was fortunate that my highschool offered typing courses that used electric typewriters and not computers. I had to learn to type with the home keys and if I made a mistake I could correct some with correction tape, but for the most part we were expected to type as fast as possible with as few mistakes...and using that correction just took too long. I am, by no means, a fast typer, nor am I mistake free (the backspace key is definitely my friend!), but it is my opinion that computers have been a catalyst for the de-evolution of the languages that we once knew. English is not the only language suffering here.


As you can tell, I have a habit of rambling a bit, so I apologize.

Cheers,

Kara


----------



## Guy. E

These are very good points.

This must be why there are seperate Junior Ranks, Senior Ranks and Officers Messes in the military.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Yes, that's exactly why, so officers and SNCOs have no need to see the pitiful illiterate ramblings of the unwashed masses.


----------



## muffin

Hello - 
I wasn't going to post this because I didn't want it to look like advertising - but I figured it may help someone.

If anyone is truly interested in improving their writing skills, English or French, the Division of Continuing Studies offers a writing course that my help. It is a non-credit course, and therefore costs less than our regular University level courses. It is a required component of the NCMPD programme, but is open to all. 

English course:
http://www.rmc.ca/academic/continuing/dceadd_e.html

French course:
http://www.rmc.ca/academic/continuing/defadd_e.html

muffin


----------



## George Wallace

OK

The questions beg to be asked.  Why did you come to Army.ca?  Did you think it was a Gamer's Site?  Did you come here to find out information on the Canadian Forces?  Did you want to find out information on Joining?  Did you want to come here to Troll?  Why did you come here?

If you came to Troll or find a bunch of Gamer's or Paintballer's, then you came to the wrong site.  If you came to learn about or ask about the Canadian Forces or joining the CF, then you came to the right place.  If you want you input to be dealt with respectfully, then you must post in a professional, articulate manner, so that 'Professional CF Members' will respond in a like manner.  If you insist on using poor grammar, spelling, sentence structure or MSN speak and talk like a 'Street Punk' because you think it is "oh so Kewl!", then those Professionals who you would like to answer your questions will not come to this site.  We are trying to put a 'Professional Face' on this site and attract those people who will be able to give knowledgable help in answering your, and others, questions.  Like that Lighthouse Keeper said in that famous line: "Your Call!"


----------



## muskrat89

> Yes, that's exactly why, so officers and SNCOs have no need to see the pitiful illiterate ramblings of the unwashed masses.



Kat - That's just about the funniest thing I've read here in ages   ;D


----------



## Kat Stevens

Thenkew, too kind.... I do what I can.... ;D


----------



## DG-41

SHORTENED LANGUAGE FORMS STOP NOT JUST A MODERN PHENOMENON STOP LANGUAGE CONFORMS TO USE OF TECHNOLOGY STOP NOT JUST A SIGN OF WASTED YOUTH STOP

(incidentally, this particular technological example leads to one of the best military telegrams ever sent; a masterwork of brevity, wit, punning, and higher education all rolled into one. When Sir Charles Napier captured the Indian province of Sind in 1843, his telegram to report the event was a single word: PECCAVI - the first-person past perfect conjugation of the Latin verb "to sin", thus, "I have sinned")

The use of shortened, nongrammatical forms of communication is a side effect of the use of a certain technology, not necessarily the indication of falling educational standards nor the general decline of Western Civilization.

Nevertheless, I applaud the intent to keep the language expressed here conformant to grammatical convention. Having had recent opportunity to read the writings of a number of our younger soldiers, it does seem that written expression skills are sadly lacking, and anything that offers practice (and the opportunity for correction) serves a lofty and noble purpose.

However, one thing that I have observed is that moderators who parachute into a thread in order to apply correction ultimately disrupt the flow of conversation, and quite frequently (especially when the correctee is inclined to be argumentative) wind up steering the thread to yet another discussion about grammar and the use of language. Furthermore, because these corrections are done "in public" the natural response is one of anger and outrage, which in turn is just setting the stage for more drama.

I therefore humbly propose that the SOP for corrections on a poster's use of language, or for failure to use the search function, be similar to that employed in the actual military: "Punish in private, praise in public". We have a functional private message system, and that, I think, is the place for these corrections.

DG


----------



## Michael OLeary

Linguistic evolution may change based on technological capabilities and limitations, and those who defend the earliest versions of "msn speak" refer to the saving of bandwidth, which is no longer the technological limitation that it once was.

The ongoing evolution of "msn speak/l33t speak" is ever more dependent on the assumption that sender and recipient are both fully indoctrinated in its use, and keeping up with cutting edge social references, to enable understanding.

Similarly, "PACCAVI" worked, not because of a need for ultimate brevity - he likely controlled the medium at that point - but because he would have known that the officers receiving the message had the same classical educational background and participated in social circles for whom linguistic adeptness and cross-linguistic aptitudes were respected for both professional achievement and personal entertainment. 

In both cases, "l33t speak" and latinate punning, were dependent on the ability of the recipient to understand the intended message without undue effort.

Now, to return to army.ca; the main source of credible information on these forums is the experienced military members. The CF expects relatively high standards of spoken and written communication from its personnel, a demand which is increasing in magnitude and importance for career development at a steady rate.

If a new forum member wants to be accepted at face value for the words they write, have their questions readily interpreted and clearly responded to, and wants to be welcome in ongoing debate (without the need to decipher their meaning and standpoint); then they - the sender - have an obligation to meet the expectations of the recipients.

Language skills are not an unimportant attribute - and the increasing opportunity and requirement to communicate on the internet emphasizes the need to be able to express oneself clearly and concisely, developing logical arguments in open debate and be able not only to understand others, but to make oneself understood.

And none who follow basic principles of good language usage will be diminished for it.


----------



## CdnArtyWife

That was a fantastic post, Micheal. Well said, thanks.

Kara


----------



## ChopperHead

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sorry to hurt your sensibilities, but as a Moderator and Staff on this site, it is one of my responsibilities to do this.  Some day, you too, may find out what it is like to have responsibilities and abilities to use good writing techniques.  I am sure that although your Resume may be very well written, you didn't do it yourself, but instead you paid a professional to do it.  But that is neither here nor there.



I was not referring to DS members as that is their job. And yes I did write it myself. But thats not the point. I do have the ability to use those good grammar techniques for the most part. However I don't see the point of wasting my time to do it on an internet forum. I do now because i was talked to about it and will respect the rules but I don't have to agree with them or with the reasoning some people give such as the intelligence thing. 

*Chopperhead

If you wish to post on this site you will use proper spelling grammer and sentence structure (within reason). These are the rules of the site and they will be maintained.

If you persist in breaking them (or any other rule) you will progress through the warning system until you find yourself banned. Again these are the rules.

The ball is in your court.

Slim
STAFF*

I realise that. I try my best now to spell things right and use proper grammar simply because I was told to by the DS and it's part of the rules. thats fine I'm just saying I don't think it's that big of a deal.
   my problem is not with the DS enforcing it it's with other people enforcing it to make themselves look smart or whatever. If your average member is not aloud to enforce and decide on other people breaking other rules then i don't think people should be aloud to comment or enforce the spelling rules either.


----------



## Journeyman

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> my problem is not with the DS enforcing it it's with other people enforcing it to make themselves look smart or whatever.



That is just the sort of errant pedantry up with which army.ca shall not put.

Personally, if I can understand the poster's message, the battle's almost won; save grammatical correctness for when you're at the university pub hitting on an English student. 

I'd much prefer the time suggested for spelling/grammar-check be dedicated to re-reading for content. Many flame-wars could be reduced if we could more readily avoid, "ya but, what I _meant_ to say was......" Perhaps ask if there is any substantive content to posting/responding at all - - if not, why not take it down to "Radio Chatter." 

All that being said.....as noted in several posts so far, coherent, grammatically-correct, well-structured arguments, lacking in spelling errors *do* add credibility to the statements made - - sorry, but that's just human nature.


----------



## Roy Harding

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> I was not referring to DS members as that is their job. And yes I did write it myself. But thats not the point. I do have the ability to use those good grammar techniques for the most part. *However I don't see the point of wasting my time to do it on an internet forum*. I do now because i was talked to about it and will respect the rules but I don't have to agree with them or with the reasoning some people give such as the intelligence thing.
> 
> Chopperhead



Do it often enough and it will become second nature - thus necessitating no discernable wastage of your time, and saving countless hours of deciphering by the intended recipients of your messages (in this case, being the Internet, that part of the world's population which doesn't include yourself.)


----------



## Scott

> my problem is not with the DS enforcing it it's with other people enforcing it to make themselves look smart or whatever. If your average member is not aloud to enforce and decide on other people breaking other rules then i don't think people should be aloud to comment or enforce the spelling rules either.



Chopperhead,

Members of this site policing themselves is part of what makes this site great. Much of the time we have regular members alerting Staff to problems in certain threads via the report post button or via PM. 



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> 201 Guests, 84 Users



The above stats copied at 2031 hrs 22FEB06

Considering the above stats you must understand that the Staff can't deal with every problem, no matter how minor, as they come up. IMO, what makes this site great is the level of self policing that goes on. Members watching other members and using the aforementioned report a post function or PMing the Staff. I understand that some members are quicker to jump on issues than others wether it's justified or not. I also understand the frustration that these same members must feel when they see people constantly ignoring the rules and the way that the site is "normally" run. There are sore spots when it comes to posting os this site:
-Posting before conducting a search
-Avatars, rank, screen names
-Empty profiles posting big time experience
-Spelling, grammar and sentence structure
-Excessive use of smiley's
-Posing
-Plus many more, but these seem to be the main culprits.
Point is, you will see people getting on one another for any one of the above examples, not just the Language Arts skills.

I take notes every day as a part of my job. It was impressed upon me that even my shorthand must be legible and as free of grammatical and spelling errors as possible. So, because I value my employment as well as my pride and sense of professionalism, I try to be as grammatically correct and utilize the spellcheck function as much as possible.

I understand that everyone is prone to error, I try to make as few as possible. And that's all we can ask from anyone.


----------



## armyvern

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed a marked increase in the amount of posters who are choosing to ignore the conduct guidelines that reflect the use of proper grammatical English, capitalization and punctuation lately?

It seems to me that there has been a marked increase in posts using "MSN speak" which lack:

a) Any kind of punctuation whatsoever (ending up being a 4 paragraph run-on sentence);

b) No capitalization (especially the word "I" and proper names such as "Bob"); and

c) Total ignorance of the existence of Army.ca's "Spell Check" feature (prominently posted immediately below the "Reply" screen - and next to - the "Post" button).

Come on. Professionalism is the mainstay of this site. Everyone makes mistakes but can we please begin, at least, to attempt to be professional with our posts? There are some posters who are not even attempting to do this (obvious by the lack of any kind of adherence/total disregard for any of the above three points).

A review of the profiles of these posters also leads me to the conclusion that it is not just the young "MSN" generation either, nor just new members.

I know that I manage to frustrate a few people on this site (as we will all frustrate someone one day!!) but this is getting ridiculous.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

The only thing I want to say on this is that not everyone speaks or writes English as their first language.
Those that do speak English as their primary language should be nudged and not crucified to write a little more professionally.


----------



## Armymedic

If you are interested in a military career, then the ability to write clearly, concisely and accurately is something that is looked at and assessed as both a point of performance and as potential for promotion to the next rank level. Learning and practicing it here will only benefit you in later life.

BTW, at work, I just has a two page memo returned to me because the spell check did not pick up my misspelled version of "very" as "vary" is also an acceptable English word.


----------



## George Wallace

I agree with you Veronica.  I get tired of having to read a post three or four times, sometimes more, to decipher what the poster has posted.  There are a few reasons that we are seeing this phenomenon on the site.

1)     Our Education System is graduating people with below standard language abilities.  We are afraid to hold people back today.  It is a "pass them at all costs, and let someone else worry about them" philosophy.  It has been a problem faced by Universities, as far back as the 1960's and 70's, where they found that many of their Graduates were actually illiterate.

2)     It is the rebelliousness of Youth.  I have seen a few posters here who figure that they can do as they please, and rules are to be ignored as they are set out by 'old' people who don't understand the ways of life in this 'New Era'.  They don't place any value on age and experience.  They figure they are the 'Future' so they can flaunt their ways as they please.  Oh, well, someday they will be older, and wiser too, and face the same indignations that they hand out to their elders today.

3)     Trolls.  Some are just outright Trolls, who find pleasure in 'upsetting the apple cart' wherever they may go.  Their pleasures are derived from visiting sites and creating havoc.

I find it interesting that this site is seeing more members taking the interest in keeping this a 'professional' forum, and actively policing the site and themselves.  Leadership by example is a good sign.   I hope we can see improvements on all 'fronts'.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

C'mon guys. You've got five 'recent' pages of this stuff already running. Shift it over there.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31327.0.html


----------



## Armymedic

recceguy said:
			
		

> C'mon guys. You've got five 'recent' pages of this stuff already running. Shift it over there.
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31327.0.html



Ah, man...we suck!


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I just has a two page



I think you mean "had" and not "has"


----------



## Armymedic

Ah, man...I suck!

I HATE SPELL CHECK!!


----------



## Trinity

recceguy said:
			
		

> C'mon guys. You've got five 'recent' pages of this stuff already running. Shift it over there.



C'mon should be Come on...  snicker

sorry...  I know I'm a bad man.


----------



## DJ

Just a thought as anything compulsory should be thouroughly scrutinized.  Is it possible to allow a member to post ONLY AFTER a spellcheck has been completed?  A member has the ability to 'ignore' any words or portions thereof that are intentional.  While I agree with a previous poster that the spellcheck should be the last resort, (society is becoming too dependent on this feature), it may help people pay attention to detail.


----------



## Scott

Calvin said:
			
		

> Just a thought as anything compulsory should be thouroughly scrutinized.  Is it possible to allow a member to post ONLY AFTER a spellcheck has been completed?  A member has the ability to 'ignore' any words or portions thereof that are intentional.  While I agree with a previous poster that the spellcheck should be the last resort, (society is becoming too dependent on this feature), it may help people pay attention to detail.



I wish there was a function that would see the old spring loaded boxing glove fly out of the monitor if someone ignored corrections on the spellcheck, guess computers aren't quite that smart yet. The bottom line is it is just simple ignorance. I don't claim to have the best spelling, grammar, punctuation and sentence structure but I do _try_. But what is maddening to me, more than anything, is the people who come here and say, "I don't think it's important so I am not going to try" I suffer fits trying to decipher their posts. If some would just get rid of the gigantic chip on their shoulder and put forth a half decent effort when asked then we wouldn't have the problem, or at least we wouldn't have 6+ pages dedicated to it. 



			
				CFL said:
			
		

> The only thing I want to say on this is that not everyone speaks or writes English as their first language.
> Those that do speak English as their primary language should be nudged and not crucified to write a little more professionally.



You are right with that one. But I have seen English as second language guys try harder than the fellas who've spoken it all their life. Maddening. No one here gets crucified, we try to help them - until they cop the attitude and just keep on going as before, then we start with the warnings.


----------



## Thaern

Just a random thought, I've noticed that the grammar and language used in this particular topic is well above the average found throughout the rest of the forum.  Now this brings me to my second thought for the day, is this because people who care about grammar are more likely to post here? Or is it because they want to show off and act superior and arrogant toward the rest of the users?  Well after a bit of research and looking at other posts from people who contributed here I would have to conclude that is most likely the latter of the two.  There are several people here who used perfect grammar and punctuation in their posts under this topic, yet the language and grammar used by these individuals is severely lacking elsewhere.  Well those are my two thoughts of the day, I think I need to give my brain a break before I hurt myself. 


(P.S. I also like feeling arrogant, grammar ftw)


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

Dunno 'bout that.


----------



## Trinity

Wait just a minute

Thaern...

you've been on this site for LESS than 24 hours....

Who are you to say this about ANYONE's post.  
Have you actually taken time to review the previous posts
of ALL the members in this thread?  REALLY?  I doubt it.

You come out of no where and then criticize people? Not just
people, but servicemen who have been in for 20 year or MORE
and you're just a recruit.  

Stay in your lane buddy.  That's a heads up.


----------



## Journeyman

Trinity said:
			
		

> Thaern...
> Stay in your lane buddy.  That's a heads up.


Welcome to the site - - you have a Padre jacking you up ! ! !  too funny  ;D


----------



## aesop081

Thaern said:
			
		

> Now this brings me to my second thought for the day,



See , that is where you went wrong, you had a thought and followed it by another one.  For the love of god....stop thinking !!


----------



## TCBF

"I wish there was a function that would see the old spring loaded boxing glove fly out of the monitor if someone ignored corrections on the spellcheck, guess computers aren't quite that smart yet."

- Too bad, or they could launch a frozen mukluk out of the screen at the monkeys who wrote spell checks that flag Canadian spelling, military abbreviations and so on.

On the alert box, one of the choices should be "Ignore Forever on all of My LOGINS", or somesuch.

Tom


----------



## Thaern

Alright, first i said several people not all people, thank you Trinity for actually taking the time to read what i said.  Secondly its not hard to find other posts made by the same user.  Thirdly i don't need to screen all of their posts to see that they don't use perfect grammar, i figure about the first 10 posts is sufficient.  And lastly that post was "all in good fun" as we like to say, hence the mockery of myself at the end of it.  But don't worry Lt. i still love you


----------



## Scott

TCBF said:
			
		

> "I wish there was a function that would see the old spring loaded boxing glove fly out of the monitor if someone ignored corrections on the spellcheck, guess computers aren't quite that smart yet."
> 
> - Too bad, or they could launch a frozen mukluk out of the screen at the monkeys who wrote spell checks that flag Canadian spelling, military abbreviations and so on.
> 
> On the alert box, one of the choices should be "Ignore Forever on all of My LOGINS", or somesuch.
> 
> Tom



Don't get me started, whole other thread right there.


----------



## Trinity

Thaern said:
			
		

> But don't worry Lt. i still love you



Don't patronize me.  I don't appreciate it and it make you look like an arse.



> Alright, first i said several people not all people,



Ok.  Several people.  Here's your chance. In the 18 hours you were on the site, please show the me the posts of the 
"several people" who's grammar was lacking.



> thank you Trinity for actually taking the time to read what i said



Patronizing statement #2...  



			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> Thirdly i don't need to screen all of their posts to see that they don't use perfect grammar,



If you're going to make an accusation (as lame as it was) on this site you BACK IT UP.  These are senior
soldiers who deserve respect and flaming them for your own admitted sense of self arrogance, is NOT ON.


----------



## Scott

Thaern, 

Trinity has a very good point. Coming on to the site and, within your first five posts, criticizing members for asking that people use proper language arts skills, could be considered trolling. In fact I do consider it trolling. You are pointing out our faults, as you perceive them, for what reason? Are you just looking for a reaction? I am curious.

I _try_ to post with proper attention to the language arts at all times. Sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain. I always use spellcheck and always punctuate - any errors regarding the former are few and very far between. 

If I wanted to feel superior I would just use my intellect, wit and charm.  ;D : :-X Why would I waste time on grammar and spelling?


----------



## CdnArtyWife

I'd say the Padre is on a roll...

And the entertainment is just one of the many things that brings me back to Army.ca everyday. :dontpanic:

*doo do doo doo doooooo, I'm Lovin' It!* ;D


----------



## George Wallace

;D


			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> Alright,. Ffirst; (i) said several people, not all people,. Tthank you Trinity, for actually taking the time to read what (i) said.  Secondly; it's not hard to find other posts made by the same user.  Thirdly; (i) don't need to screen all of their posts to see that they don't use perfect grammar,.  (i) figure about the first 10 posts is sufficient.  And lastly; that post was "all in good fun" as we like to say, hence the mockery of myself at the end of it.  But don't worry Lt. (i) still love you







			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> Secondly its not hard to find other posts made by the same user.


Darn right on that call!   ;D

Too much time on my hands this fine morning.


----------



## Journeyman

This is clearly the sort of errant pedantry, up with which we shall not put!

Too much free time indeed


----------



## aesop081

Journeyman said:
			
		

> This is clearly the sort of errant pedantry, up with which we shall not put!
> 
> Too much free time indeed



Alright mister, that's enough of that kind of language  :threat:


----------



## Thaern

Look it appears that this is getting way out of hand. Sorry Trinity if I've offended you, that was not my intent, i was just trying to bring some light hearted humor about people taking grammar too seriously but i guess I've clearly failed.  I would also like to apologize to anyone else who was offended by these posts, sorry guys and gals.  Like i said i was just trying to have a bit 'o fun with this topic and things seem to have spiraled out of control, Sorry bout that.


----------



## Michael OLeary

You tried (and failed) to draw attention to something that is not an issue, i.e., taking the effort to write well.  Someone who does their best to practice good writing; use of correct punctuation, grammar, spelling, capitalization and, perhaps most importantly, appropriate tone, will seldom be misunderstood.  Those who do not care for exerting any effort in this regard often suffer the slings and barbs of other because their prose is difficult to understand, which easily leads to failing to get the responses they seek through simple misunderstanding.  In the extreme, the contributions of those who feel their time is too important to spend on writing well (perhaps programming their iPod or cell phone takes precedence) insults others by expecting the recipient(s) to make an extra effort to decipher their posts and guess what the question may be before providing a response.  It's easy to brush this objection aside by saying "if you don't like the way it's written, don’t answer", but if the one person who has the exact information being sought takes that option, the question never receives the treatment a few extra minutes in drafting it would have achieved.  Lastly, and a point that has been made a number of times on the forums, effective written communications is an asset, and a requirement for promotion by service members.  For this reason, if not for any based on actually desiring effective online interaction, new posters should be aware of and accept that good writing standards are a desirable skill, one which they can actually use the Forums to practice and improve.


----------



## Thaern

Oh boy, i know this is just going to open a whole other can and i suspect im going to be making another apologie sometime in the near future but....  I was not trying to insult people who take the time to write well, but the people who think that becuase they do it is something special and they deserve a cookie.  I agree that taking the time to capatalize punctuate and spell check are good things, but you dont deserve a medal for doing so.  I dont ask for a medal every time i brush my teeth or remember to wash my hands(though maybe for this one i should).  I was just trying to draw attention to the people who think they are special because they do use proper grammar and how outside of this topic they failed to do as they claimed.  I also hate leet and msn speak, but that doesnt mean im going around congradulating myself for not using it.  (please dont kill me Trinity, i go to church every sunday, well.... atleast more than once a month)


----------



## DG-41

> I was just trying to draw attention to the people who think they are special



And this is your responsibility... why?

DG


----------



## Scott

Thaern said:
			
		

> Oh boy, i know this is just going to open a whole other can and i suspect im going to be making another apologie sometime in the near future but....  I was not trying to insult people who take the time to write well, but the people who think that becuase they do it is something special and they deserve a cookie.  I agree that taking the time to capatalize punctuate and spell check are good things, but you dont deserve a medal for doing so.  I dont ask for a medal every time i brush my teeth or remember to wash my hands(though maybe for this one i should).  I was just trying to draw attention to the people who think they are special because they do use proper grammar and how outside of this topic they failed to do as they claimed.  I also hate leet and msn speak, but that doesnt mean im going around congradulating myself for not using it.  (please dont kill me Trinity, i go to church every sunday, well.... atleast more than once a month)



You know, I was going to modify your post but thought better of it. I wanted to quote it and leave it up as a shining example of someone trolling.

Your first post in this thread:


			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> Just a random thought, I've noticed that the grammar and language used in this particular topic is well above the average found throughout the rest of the forum.  Now this brings me to my second thought for the day, is this because people who care about grammar are more likely to post here? Or is it because they want to show off and act superior and arrogant toward the rest of the users?  Well after a bit of research and looking at other posts from people who contributed here I would have to conclude that is most likely the latter of the two.  There are several people here who used perfect grammar and punctuation in their posts under this topic, yet the language and grammar used by these individuals is severely lacking elsewhere.  Well those are my two thoughts of the day, I think I need to give my brain a break before I hurt myself.
> 
> 
> (P.S. I also like feeling arrogant, grammar ftw)



Big differences, eh? I really don't think it's too smart for someone to post in a thread about proper use of the English language and not concern themselves with such proper use. I find your latest post an immature attempt to get things going in here by purposely ignoring good English habits and skills. As Michael said earlier, someone who *does their best* to write well (Proper use of grammar, punctuation, spelling, sentence structure, etc.) will seldom be misunderstood. You didn't even make an attempt with your last.

Note the bold type, that is what *I* expect, not perfection, just an effort, you've made none. You could have made half an effort by using the spellcheck, it is included with the forum software, however, I suspect you were to intent on mashing the post button to worry about that. _Most members_ of this site, probably 99% easy, do their best, why do you choose to stand out? We all make mistakes and I can handle someone doing so, no one is perfect, but you went out of your way to ignore everything that this thread discusses.

I'm with RecceDG, why are you taking up this cause? I can think of better things to do.

Consider this a warning, do not pull a stunt like that again or be introduced to the warning system.

Scott
Army.ca Staff


----------



## Gunnar

It's not about getting a cookie...it's about communication.  Just as manners are not about pleasing your mom, they're about social interaction.

Spelling mistakes and grammatical errors are serious in the medical world, the military world, or the world of technology.  If you don't adhere to the standards of the language, people get killed, get the wrong medical procedure performed on them, or cause industrial accidents when the chemicals or technology get put in the wrong order.  This isn't about critiquing your grammar and spelling to make you feel small...it's about getting you to fix it so that you're playing in the same field as everyone else.  Unlike your mom, or your highschool friends, it isn't about correcting your behaviour for the sake of correcting it.  It's about correcting your behaviour to conform to the social norm, so that what you are trying to do, communicate, is what you actually achieve.  It's important for that reason, not because contractions make use of apostrophes.

Sloppy spelling and grammar leads to sloppy thinking...as you expect everyone to fill the the blanks for your errors in spelling, so will you expect them to fill in the blanks for your poorly written/phrased/conceived ideas, because words are thoughts...."Well, of course you need to ground the circuit before you start playing with it, I just left that part out because, well, you know what I mean...".  Really?  And how is the poor dead guy supposed to know that?  If you don't say what you mean, you can't ever mean what you say.

If someone tells you to bring the Captains' dinner in, and you bring a single plate to a room full of Captains, how dumb are you going to look?  Similarly, if you're told to bring the Captain's dinner, and you bring in a whole turkey, you'll look just as dumb.  Maybe you wouldn't make that mistake...but others, following your written directions COULD.  So follow the rules!

CS, VX, what's the difference?  You know what I mean!


----------



## Trinity

Thaern said:
			
		

> Look it appears that this is getting way out of hand. Sorry Trinity if I've offended you, that was not my intent



1) applogy accepted...  learning is all that is important to me
2) I do disagree; you did mean to offend me (even if it was unconscious)

People around tend to put little shots in their responses that will aggravate
the other poster to no end...

Example, 

Listen up little man,
OK Smartass,
If you knew your job
OK recruit


Twice in your post, you did the same which I've previously pointed out
and don't need to do it again.  You can't deny you knew you were doing it
but we do it in jest, but our little jests are quite often meant to quietly jab
at the other person. 

We use humour as a way to insult the other person, but, we can claim
it was just humour when in fact the secondary meaning of insult is quite clear.
Its a game we play in society.

These little shots detract from the factual part of posts and actually stir up
the frustration and anger within the posts, and, sometimes even come off
as legitimate argument when in fact they have nothing to do with the post.

So... if people (including you and me) are to learn anything from this interaction,
then it should be to not include these little parting shots. I had to double check my
posts to you... since I even through one accidentally at which point I deleted it before posting.


And as for the Please don't kill me comment.  Not necessary was it?  Although I have been stern
in my posts, I have not been mean or nasty.  Its, to me, just another jest which isn't appropriate
unless I knew you.


Edit.... for grammar and spelling   : :


----------



## c.jacob

Thaern said:
			
		

> Or is it because they want to show off and act superior and arrogant toward the rest of the users?  Well after a bit of research and looking at other posts from people who contributed here I would have to conclude that is most likely the latter of the two.



  Using proper spelling and punctuation is acting superior and arrogant? :-\


----------



## Thaern

Look all I’m trying to say is that people who post: "I always use proper english.  People who don't are stupid and lazy" read to *-me-* as: "look at me I’m trying to impress other people with a skill that your basic 7th grade student should be well on their way to mastering."  Heaven knows I tried to show this hilarious fashion while poking fun at myself but i guess there is too much of a generation gap and comments that I think should be light hearted and funny end up coming across as insulting, arrogant, insolent, degrading, annoying, etc.  

We already know that we are lazy and many of us are in fact stupid we don’t need other people pointing it out for us.  ;D


----------



## SweetNavyJustice

To add to what Piper has written, we all know generally how difficult it can be to effectively communicate an idea or emotion in print.  This more then goes to the point that there is a need to maintain proper grammer and spelling.  

I would think that everyone can agree that we all want what we are writing to make sense.  Would this still count as the "trying to impress" that Thaern speaks?  I don't think so....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Thaern,

Thank you for holding yourself up as the 'Poster Child' of what not to be in this thread, and a sparkling example of the reason that it was started in the first place.


----------



## Trinity

Thaern said:
			
		

> Look all I’m trying to say is that people who post: "I always use proper english.  People who don't are stupid and lazy" read to *-me-* as: "look at me I’m trying to impress other people with a skill that your basic 7th grade student should be well on their way to mastering."  Heaven knows I tried to show this hilarious fashion while poking fun at myself but i guess there is too much of a generation gap and comments that I think should be light hearted and funny end up coming across as insulting, arrogant, insolent, degrading, annoying, etc.



And what we have been trying to say is... you were innappropriate in your post(s) and in the manner you tried.

I gave you a perfectly good out in my last post.  All you had to do was acknowledge and say thanks, learn from
your mistake instead of trying to defend it to the last breath.  

You screwed up. That's OK.  We all do.  
Not admitting to your screw up is what is bringing this wrath upon you.

You could put all of this to rest and gain some respect by admitting this,
that is, if you can at least recognize that you may be wrong (and since enough
people are letting you know that you crossed a line, that may be a hint)

The choice is yours.  I do not care either way.  But recognize I'm probably the
only one who hasn't made fun of you, attacked you, or belittled you.  I have been
honest and caring (although stern) the entire time.  But from now on, your next post
is going to decide how you interact for a very long time here at Army.ca.

Ball is in your court.  What is your move?


----------



## Journeyman

Trinity said:
			
		

> You could put all of this to rest and gain some respect by admitting this....


Admit nothing.....just stop typing. No response required. Stop.


----------



## Thaern

Lolz u start thread cuz u h8 msn speek guess me postar child cuz me so 1337 m i rite?


----------



## aesop081

Thaern said:
			
		

> Lolz u start thread cuz u h8 msn speek guess me postar child cuz me so 1337 m i rite?



ahemm :



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Admit nothing.....just stop typing. No response required. Stop.


----------



## sdimock

I find it truly amazing that a person who has been shown so much patients, would respond with that last post.

Thaern, not only are you out of your lane, your travelling the wrong direction on a multi-lane freeway.

The only way this will not end badly for you is to stop, now.

If indeed you are a recruit, as your profile states, both your attitude and your actions here, will not work well for you in the Forces.

Have a nice day


----------



## Scott

You are childish, that's for sure. You're also getting the attention you seem to crave so badly, from me, welcome to the warning system.


----------



## BKells

sdimock said:
			
		

> I find it truly amazing that a person who has been shown so much *patients*, would respond with that last post.



I'm new to this topic entirely, and I have no idea what it is about. I do know, however, that the title is "Grammar and Sentence Structures"

I couldn't help but notice the irony.

patience
n.
1. The capacity, quality, or fact of being patient.


----------



## sdimock

I stand corrected.

I searched on Dictionary.com for patients and didn't notice that the result did not have the "s" on the end. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patients

adj.
1. Bearing or enduring pain, difficulty, provocation, or annoyance with calmness. 

Live and learn, spelling has never been my strong suit.

With the difficulties I had earlier on with the spell check, I've relied on Dictionary.com quite heavily.

Attention to detail, makes all the difference.

Chimo

<edited for spelling and grammer>


----------



## Franko

Thaern said:
			
		

> Lolz u start thread cuz u h8 msn speek guess me postar child cuz me so 1337 m i rite?



Where do we get these guys?

 :

Regards


----------



## Kat Stevens

sd, it was an unnecessary dig at your use of "patients (more than one patient)", vice "patience", I believe.


----------



## scoutfinch

Thaern:

Hmmm... I am going to stop and think for a moment.  Work with me here...

(1)  This is a privately owned Board.

(2)  The owner of this Board has established rules for many things including membership, posting privileges and grammar.

(3)  The owner of this Board has appointed moderators to enforce the rules.

(4)  The moderators have politely asked you to refrain from MSN-speak.

(5)  You b*tch about the rules.

(6)  You b*itch about the moderators enforcing the rules.

(7)  You don't have the common courtesy to write in a legible fashion even after being instructed to do so.

Now for a refresher, let's briefly go back to points #1, 2 and 3, shall we??? This a privately owned Board with rules established and enforced at the discretion of the OWNER of this Board.  

Have a little respect.  Grow up and communicate like an adult... or are you really too lazy to properly convey your thoughts?


----------



## Thaern

Wow, simply wow, put on the warning system for nothing more than simply posting in leet/msn speak.  Which, by the way, took me more that 5 minutes to actually write since I'm really not that good at doing it.  I mean if it was something truly offensive (yes i know you could consider that truly offensive but i mean vulgar) then sure a warning would be a good idea.  But seriously some of you guys are taking things way to far.  I honestly cant believe that some of you thought that post was meant to be taken as anything but jest.  Alright from now all all attempts at humor orlightheartedness's (i think thats all one word!?)  are over, its clear that the best way to communicate with people on this forum is in straight, dry, unemotional, text. 



P.S. Lighten up Scott, you can hate me, but don't go abusing your admin because of it.  Find a real, not personal, reason to ban me.


----------



## scoutfinch

Thaern said:
			
		

> Wow, simply wow, put on the warning system for nothing more than simply posting in leet/msn speak.  Which, by the way, took me more that 5 minutes to actually write since I'm really not that good at doing it.  I mean if it was something truly offensive (yes i know you could consider that truly offensive but i mean vulgar) then sure a warning would be a good idea.  But seriously some of you guys are taking things way to far.  I honestly cant believe that some of you thought that post was meant to be taken as anything but jest.  Alright from now all all attempts at humor orlightheartedness's (i think thats all one word!?)  are over, its clear that the best way to communicate with people on this forum is in straight, dry, unemotional, text.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Lighten up Scott, you can hate me, but don't go abusing your admin because of it.  Find a real, not personal, reason to ban me.



Sigh.

Okay.  Let's go back to rules #1,2 and 3.

Pal... this ain't a democracy.  It is a benevolent dictatorship.  You don't have posting *rights* here.  You have posting *privileges*.


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

Thaern said:
			
		

> Wow, simply wow, put on the warning system for nothing more than simply posting in leet/msn speak.
> 
> ...
> 
> P.S. Lighten up Scott, you can hate me, but don't go abusing your admin because of it.  Find a real, not personal, reason to ban me.



Let's be clear: you were put on warning for trolling, not for "l33t speak." Scott is not abusing his admin rights, he's using them to ensure Army.ca remains interesting and pertinent for it's users.


----------



## Scott

Well, I'm glad Mike stopped in and said his piece, I don't have to tell you to take it up with him if you feel I am being unfair, he's posted his thoughts. To mine:



			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> Wow, simply wow, put on the warning system for nothing more than simply posting in leet/msn speak.  Which, by the way, took me more that 5 minutes to actually write since I'm really not that good at doing it.



Army.ca Conduct Guidelines



> You will not become an administrative burden to the Staff by intentionally or unintentionally creating significant work for them through your actions.





> You will not troll the boards or feed the trolls. This is making posts that intentionally create hostile arguments, or responding to such posts in the same hostile tone.





> You will not use excessive webspeak, or other shorthand styles of typing. Please use English or French to the best of your ability; this makes it easier for those who are not posting in their native language.





> Users that ignore these rules or otherwise act inappropriately may be placed on warning or banned.



You broke the guidelines, more than once, on purpose and flaunted it. You deserved the warning, you were asking for it, nuff said.



			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> I mean if it was something truly offensive (yes i know you could consider that truly offensive but i mean vulgar) then sure a warning would be a good idea.  But seriously some of you guys are taking things way to far.



No, *you* are the one who took things too far.



			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> I honestly cant believe that some of you thought that post was meant to be taken as anything but jest.



Maybe if you had have taken the advice given in the first place and not acted the way that you did it would have been taken in jest. Considering your previous posts I saw it as a flagrant attempt to troll and apparently so did some others.



			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> Alright from now all all attempts at humor orlightheartedness's (i think thats all one word!?)  are over, its clear that the best way to communicate with people on this forum is in straight, dry, unemotional, text.



We don't have a problem with humour, we have a problem with people breaking rules which you went out of your way to do on more than one occasion. 



			
				Thaern said:
			
		

> P.S. Lighten up Scott, you can hate me, but don't go abusing your admin because of it.  Find a real, not personal, reason to ban me.



I am being light, I don't hate you, I am not abusing my privileges as DS. Considering the attempts people made to turn you around I probably could have started you higher up the ladder in the Warning System but chose not to. You are not banned, you are on verbal warning, you can not edit your posts for one week. After the week is up, if you behave, you will go back to the status you had before the warning. But, if you choose to continue down the path we have travelled so far you will progress in the system and eventually be banned. It's really up to you.

Now, are we done here?


----------



## monika

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Lastly, and a point that has been made a number of times on the forums, effective written communications is an asset, and a requirement for promotion by service members.  For this reason, if not for any based on actually desiring effective online interaction, new posters should be aware of and accept that good writing standards are a desirable skill, one which they can actually use the Forums to practice and improve.



Nicely stated Captain. Forget about effective written communication being required for service members, it is a requirement in any career. I say that not merely because I was a journalism student and plan to go into broadcasting; I say it because every day, I see the language butchered by people who either don't care or are careless. In some cases I have actually had to reply and ask for clarification! I don't care what one does for a living; if the email you send me is sloppy and careless I will assume that is how you treat all your professional activities and yes, I will be less likely to deal with you in the future.

Think about it.


----------



## Sig_Des

Franko said:
			
		

> Where do we get these guys?



Man, I thought we boarded up that hole in the fence? 

As a communicator in the military, I'll say it now...There is a time for use of short-hand and abbreviation. But even when you fall under that time, you want to make sure that your messages are clear, legible, and will still be understandable to the recipient. Nothing worse than sending a message or worse, orders, and having the recipient take the wrong meaning.

Now, this forum? It doesn't fall under the short-hand time. There's no stop-clock from when you click on "reply" to when you click on "post" (and hopefully, you're clicking on "Spell Check" before you click on "Post"). You have the time to look over. You can use military abbreviations (most of us understand them, or have access to the Military abbreviations guide), but for the love of all that is right and decent, why not show everyone the courtesy of at least attempting to make your post understandable. I'm not saying you have to be the most eloquent poster here, but I don't feel I should have to be a cryptologist to understand you.

Also, there's a difference between jesting about people or subjects, and out to be a smart-***. You, Thaern, are exhibiting traits of the latter, specifically with your attempts to inflame and provoke members who are not only quite senior and respected on this site, but several whose years in the military outnumber your age.

I'm not saying don't use humour...ask any of the regulars on the chats and forum about myself, I find humour to be a great tool. But same as anything, there's a time to use it. I would suggest to not do so in a patronizing way to speak with other members.

Just a friendly suggestion. It'll save you grief.

In short; Your aim is off. Check your scope. Readjust to a comfortable firing position. Go on.


----------



## Kat Stevens

If humour was a no-go around here, my post count would be hovering around the 12-15 mark, I would think. >


----------



## Thaern

Woah woah, OK i was out of line for that admin abuse comment.  I thought he was just doing it for the use of leet/msn.  And as for trolling alrighty then, if you think i am then perhaps that's a sign to stop posting in this topic and better yet, to take this advice from these people who are obviously more mature than me (not trying to be patronizing).  Sorry 'bout that mix up Scott I'm off to find bigger and better topics to get flammed on. (its a joke, I'm not off to go harass other topics).  

P.S. Hope to see y'all round.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Could that be the final shot of this engagement, please?  The barbarians have withdrawn from the frontier voluntarily, stand down, guardians.... ;D


----------



## aesop081

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Could that be the final shot of this engagement, please?  The barbarians have withdrawn from the frontier voluntarily, stand down, guardians.... ;D



yeah, time for another lock


----------



## Trinity

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> There's no stop-clock from when you click on "reply" to when you click on "post" (and hopefully, you're clicking on "Spell Check" before you click on "Post"). You have the time to look over.



No.. but on really hot threads (such a this one)

If you even remotely take your time next thing you know three
other people have posted ahead of you and already stolen your
thunder or the thread has been locked.

That sucks.


----------



## pronto

Wow, I've been off starting up a new job for the past while, and have not had a chance to "check in" as it were. I cannot believe how my little thread has grown... you all do me proud! 9 pages of debate on grammar. I have just completed reading it, in its entirety. From the sublime to the ridiculous, and back to the sublime again.

Cheers all,


----------



## Sig_Des

At what point did it get sublime again  ???


----------



## pronto

heh heh, that would be your post!


----------



## Trinity

pronto said:
			
		

> heh heh, that would be your post!



Well.. no thread can be complete until HitorMiss comes in and stinks up the place

I wonder what took him so long in finding this one???


----------



## DJ

aesop081 said:
			
		

> yeah, time for another lock


  

Please don't.  I think that this is still a pertinent topic, minus the hiccup.


----------



## HItorMiss

Padre I got a lot of threads to look over.....so many people...so little thought into what they say!

As for Grammar in general Heck I barely speak English what with the grunts and mumbles, plus it hard to hear me over the sounds of my knuckles dragging on the ground.

However I do indeed find it deplorable the state in which I find many post for even the most mundane thread, and thus take great care to use my grey matter for something other then bullet catching and tactics (so hard to stop thinking tactics), I find that when I am doubt I take the time to use other means of spell check and grammar checks before submitting a post on here or in the case of my professional career submitting memo's (thanks to Journeyman on that too, you Officers sure are edimucated  ).

As for posting inflammatory stuff...of lord how you picked the wrong thread to do anything other then just read, when you got a thread full of senior members of this site and it's admin staff, plus the owner reading you do not lip off to them even in jest. I'll put it to you this way, can I crack jokes with my Platoon commander, yup sure can to an extant anyway, do I walk into a conference room full of command staff and crack jokes about them being pointy heads...Oh lord no, not if I want to continue my life in the fashion and manner for which I have become accustomed to.. IE: Breathing.

so in closing, everybody sucks but me 

PS: OK my grammar sucked in this post I'm sure, blame our poorly funded public education system that focuses more on participation then in actual teaching now days.


----------



## Strike

So, after all of that, I have a nice little story for you.

As many of you know.  In the Petawawa area we get a free newspaper every Friday.  It has all of the weekly flyers and is generally one big advert.

One of the ads in this paper was for a car dealership.  It was selling (get ready for this) not only Sonatas and Echos, but *Escape's* and *Cavalier's* as well.

The OCD in me kicked in and I called the paper to inform them about their error.  Obviously they don't believe grammar is important in advertising because the guy treated me like a nut.  Okay, I know I am a bit of one for going this far, but I was going into convulsions every time I looked at the add.


----------



## DJ

I fully understand.  I as well suffer from OCD in related matters.  I know that in my work the slightest errors create unwanted attention.  Being on the look-out for any errors that I make has developed into a state in which my radar is always on while reading everything.  I swear that I should have been born with a red pen in lieu of a finger.  I, for one, would also rather be told about a mistake rather than continue making it.  It's similar to bootlaces.  One could have their entire uniform absolutely perfect but bootlaces which are sticking-out will negate everything else and make one look shoddy.


----------



## Sig_Des

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> so in closing, everybody sucks but me



Well, that does indeed give me some direction in my life! I was so wrong...All I had to do was be more like HoM...lemme give it a try!

hmm, my knuckles don't reach the ground...maybe if I.... OH! I need to stoop...there we go...

This is kinda uncomfortable...what if I...I KNOW!! I'll breathe through my mouth!

Now, how could I be anymore like HoM? I've got it! I'll put on Oakley's!

Now I just need to hit a radio a couple of times and say "Talk into magic box...sky rain fire!"

 8)


----------



## big bad john

Piper said:
			
		

> I wonder is Thaern realises that many members of this site are current serving members...and this is a small military....I'm not saying anything either way...
> 
> But Thaern, take that thought and run with it for a bit. First impressions my friend....first impressions. Whether it is in person or on a website frequented by CF members.
> 
> You'd be surprised how quickly people could figure out who you were, and how word can get around that you gave some the impression of being a mouthy smart-arse.
> 
> Just thought I'd place that thought out there.



Subtle hints...


----------



## Arctic Acorn

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> PS: OK my grammar sucked in this post I'm sure, blame our poorly funded public education system that focuses more on participation then in actual teaching now days.



I dunno dude...I sat right beside you in high school (well, for the classes you deigned to attend, at any rate...) and I turned out gud. 

'Me fail english...thats unpossible!'


----------



## munky99999

This is how I see it. The best way to communicate is fast and effectively. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It has everything to do with “Is it formal or informal?” and “Who is going to be reading this and/or does it matter?”

The entirety of the internet with very few exceptions is informal. When you’re in an informal place there are no rules and nothing really makes any difference. Much like poetry, there are no rules in poetry because there are absolutely no consequences to poetry. Compare this to a report from a Brigadier general to whoever he would be writing to. If he didn’t use proper and concise English there probably will be misunderstandings occurring; which can create a lot of trouble. However what possible consequences can an anonymous uncreditable person create? None

Now for an informal medium; the only question left would be. “Who is going to be reading this and/or does it matter?” Take this site for example. The people reading my post will probably understand completely what I am saying even in “web speak” or they will be ESL and will only understand proper English and have no idea what I’m talking about. Which leaves the part, “Do I care if they understand me?” You can probably guess the answer to that easily enough. 



> Can any of you tell me if teachers are accepting acronyms and abbreviations in schools? Do they teach grammar and spelling?


Definitely not. While I had this one teacher for most of my English, he never ever taught much but when it came down to anything opposite of formal/proper English it was wrong. I do know however that we were supposed to learn grammar and spelling.

Thirstyson says it best.


> Keep in mind that these are all examples of personal communications, where spelling, grammar, punctuation etc. take a back seat to efficiency.
> 
> Most people who write like this can write just fine when needed (they all passed high school writing the same essays as you did). There just isn't any incentive to write properly most of the time and many dont see it as bad form posting to a forum in this manner. I'd argue that army.ca has the LEAST amount of 1337 speak of any forum I know.


I know proper English and most rules that I should know about at my level of education. I’m not even allowed to use the word “whom” according to my post-grade 12 teacher because I don’t know the rules surrounding it. But the only time I ever use proper English is in formal places, internet forums being strictly informal by definition so I never ever bother with grammar and spelling except this site. When I read the rules to the site I thought that it mean very bad ghetto talk, “fo reel dawg me thot tis wez the worse.”



> Now again, I may be showing my age here, but an argument consisting of netspeak is going to generally be less credible to me than one in "longhand." I probably shouldn't carry that bias, but to me if the point's worth making, it's worth the time to write it out legibly and professionally.


I would have to say that is a bias and a very large opening for an ad hominem. Arguments get their credibility from the argument’s facts and evidence. To say that an argument isn’t valid or credible because of spelling and grammar or by the person in any way is an ad hominem. You are ignoring the facts of the argument and attacking the person or the person’s grammar and spelling. Which most likely isn’t the subject of the argument to begin with, personally I debate often on religion so spelling isn’t the subject. When the person attacking my spelling and grammar it means he can’t argue against my facts and evidence.

PS. I never used spell check.


----------



## the 48th regulator

> But the only time I ever use proper English is in formal places, internet forums being strictly informal by definition so I never ever bother with grammar and spelling except this site.



Good on you, keep it up.

dileas

tess


----------



## Edward Campbell

munky99999 said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> The entirety of the internet with very few exceptions is informal. When you’re in an informal place there are no rules and nothing really makes any difference ...



Fair enough, I suppose, but you are not in an informal place.  You are in Army.ca, _M. Bobbitt, Proprietor_.  Mr. Bobbitt asks that all guests (some of whom are members, some even paying members) try to express themselves in a manner which reflects well upon the site.  His Directing Staff _*encourages*_ the same by discouraging "web speak".

It seems to me that when we are guests in Mike Bobbitt's place we owe him the elementary courtesy of writing as he asks.  As you have demonstrated, it’s not difficult.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
PS. I never used spell check

Nor the "grammer check"
..............well I guess "our definition" of an internet forum is different than your quote,"internet forums being strictly informal by definition"......and, quite simply, our house our rules.


EDIT: Ah, Edward, still way faster than I.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Thank you Edward, you just saved me the trouble.

munky99999,

Those are the site rules, please reread them if you require a refresher. It is not really open for debate.


----------



## George Wallace

I might add, that we are trying to maintain this as a "Professional Site" for those interested in the Canadian Military; the Army in particular.  As such we expect to keep our 'informal conversations and discusions' professional in nature.  We strive to have Topics of interest for all Ranks of the CF and those interested in garnering information on the CF, as well as those interested in joining the CF.  If the rules for this Private Site are not in your opinion what the Internet should be, there are many other sites out there that are.  Be forewarned, most military sites that strive to be 'professional', also demand that their posters be professional and literate in their presentations.


----------



## Journeyman

munky99999 said:
			
		

> This is how I see it. The best way to communicate is fast and effectively. *It has nothing to do with intelligence*.


You have SO made my day.   :rofl:   But if I may add to the others' observations of just how mistaken you are......



> The entirety of the internet with very few exceptions is informal. When you’re in an informal place *there are no rules * and nothing really makes any difference........what possible consequences can an anonymous uncreditable person create? None


Ahhh...but you see, there _are_ rules here... Please check the site's Guildlines - - no really, I insist, _please_: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html  

And if you have been following the Ruxted Editorials and the ensuing discussions, (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,68.0.html), you may begin to have a clue as to just how much what is posted within this site _does_ make a difference. This site is read by a very diverse audience - - some quite highly placed in government, and some in very significant positions to inform public opinion regarding the Candian Forces. I personally believe that having government support and positive public opinion for our military is a good thing. Some readers may lack either the sophistication to know truth from trolling, or simply not have time to confirm facts. What you say may therefore be taken as truth, when in fact you _may_ be completely out to lunch.



> To say that an argument isn’t valid or credible because of spelling and grammar or by the person in any way is an ad hominem. You are ignoring the facts of the argument and attacking the person or the person’s grammar and spelling. Which most likely isn’t the subject of the argument to begin with


Well, first off, on this thread (see title at the top), the topic _is_ grammar and spelling, so please try and bear with those attempting to show you the light. Making the effort to form a logical, well-organized and presented posting speaks volumes about the poster's credibility. Yes, that old saying is true: "you never get a second chance to make a first impression." Now, you started out by telling everyone you believe that the best communication is fast, effective, and has nothing to do with intelligence. If one cannot even present a facade of intellect, why should anyone read further? A dog that can juggle may be amusing, but I certainly cannot believe its opinions on defence procurement will give me any particular insights. 

Quite simply, in your observation that this site has has very little "1337-speak" - - anyone wishing to be taken seriously here must therefore put some effort into communicating within the arcs of the guidelines. You've shown the capability, despite believing yourself above "spell check" use; you need only be willing to put the effort into "fitting in"  (I know..... _~shudder~)_



> Much like poetry, there are no rules in poetry.....


 Oh, and you got THAT wrong too. See BBC, "Get Writing," Poetry Techniques: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/getwriting/module22p


----------



## munky99999

I wasn’t debating this site’s rules. I was explaining what is going on with this web speak movement.(in a sense it is a movement) though perhaps making the guideline more clear couldn’t hurt.

It is true that the internet is considered informal. The necessity of the rule proves this.



> If one cannot even present a facade of intellect, why should anyone read further?


Again as I quoted in my first post of Thirstyson’s it is for the most part a choice to not use “proper” English; as much as it is a relative term also. Today’s English presented to someone in Shakespeare’s time would be completely unacceptable and definitely not proper. Since it’s a choice to use web speak rather then proper English. As I’m demonstrating that I’m fully capable of following the grammar rules that have been taught to me, but for the most part on other sites choose to use web speak. It doesn’t change the meaning of what I’m articulating thusly basing your argument that what I am saying is wrong because I’m not spelling to your satisfaction isn’t valid.



> You've shown the capability, despite believing yourself above "spell check" use; you need only be willing to put the effort into "fitting in"  (I know..... ~shudder~)


I’m not above spell check. I’m just showing that IF I put the effort in I can be as proper as most, or at least satisfactorily proper.



> Oh, and you got THAT wrong too. See BBC, "Get Writing," Poetry Techniques:


Yes techniques are different then rules. The saying goes as I remember. “What's the first rule of writing poetry? There are no rules. Poetry rules!”
You have all the right to use bad grammar, spell wrong, write some words upside down, or invent words that make no sense at all. Eh doblbeeblyblob.

Only thing that makes me sad is I can remember this stuff and can’t remember 100 digits of Pi  :crybaby:


----------



## Michael OLeary

munky99999 said:
			
		

> I wasn’t debating this site’s rules. I was explaining what is going on with this web speak movement.(in a sense it is a movement) though perhaps making the guideline more clear couldn’t hurt.
> 
> It is true that the internet is considered informal. The necessity of the rule proves this.
> Again as I quoted in my first post of Thirstyson’s it is for the most part a choice to not use “proper” English; as much as it is a relative term also. Today’s English presented to someone in Shakespeare’s time would be completely unacceptable and definitely not proper. Since it’s a choice to use web speak rather then proper English. As I’m demonstrating that I’m fully capable of following the grammar rules that have been taught to me, but for the most part on other sites choose to use web speak. It doesn’t change the meaning of what I’m articulating thusly basing your argument that what I am saying is wrong because I’m not spelling to your satisfaction isn’t valid.



So, what exactly is your point?  We know that we have rules that are different from much, but not all, of the internet.  Those rules are readily available and all members agreed to them on joining army.ca.  They are also reinforced by staff and other members in the interest of maintaining a credible level of presentation in the discussions on army.ca.  Participating here includes doing one's best to meet the site's published Guidelines, or at the very least a demonstrable attempt to do so, and an awareness that the Warning System may apply to those who refuse to "conform."  If you are capable of using proper (current era) English, in the scholastic sense if that is your preference for defining it, then please do so.  The many variations of language emerging in the public sphere on the street or through the net are not our concern, a level of language skills appropriate to the CF workplace and similarly formal environments is the expectation.


----------



## Thaern

Munky99999, take it from me, a veteran flamie from this topic, they will not stop.  Just say that you are sorry and move on.  Any argument you try and make with them, no matter how reasonable, will go unnoticed amidst the flames (trust me whatever you're about to say, I’ve said it and was wholeheartedly flamed for it).  At this point most people don’t care about what you have to say, but rather that you said something.  Take the advice I received from the padre and just move along.


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

And now, just for fun, swap "us" and "them" in your above post and see how it's still applicable.


----------



## TMM

munky99999 said:
			
		

> Again as I quoted in my first post of Thirstyson’s *it is for the most part a choice to not use “proper” English*; as much as it is a relative term also.



It is also my choice as an employer to fire someone, as I have done today, for not using "proper" English. The danger I see with so many students now is that they, like you get so used to MSN/leet that when the time comes to use it, they literally can't do it.

You better pay attention to how you communicate because it will come back to bite you in the arse.


----------



## Scott

Thaern said:
			
		

> Munky99999, take it from me, a veteran flamie from this topic, they will not stop.  Just say that you are sorry and move on.  Any argument you try and make with them, no matter how reasonable, will go unnoticed amidst the flames (trust me whatever you're about to say, I’ve said it and was wholeheartedly flamed for it).  At this point most people don’t care about what you have to say, but rather that you said something.  Take the advice I received from the padre and just move along.



First post since April 30 and you just had to come back here, eh? Beat the horse just a teensy bit more :

Flamed? Not once were you flamed, you were informed of the way things were run here then you argued and trolled until you got yourself warned. After your warning you went off half cocked and accused the Staff of abusing their powers!

You then did an about face and seemed to accept why things were happening as they were and I thought that this was going to die - not so, here you are again bleating.

You have a choice, just the same as I, if you don't like the site or it's rules then *do not come here*. I don't go to leetspeak.com and b*tch about how I can't understand anything and I wouldn't expect anything but a high five if I were so bold and arrogant to do so.

Are you done now?


----------



## Centurian1985

Thaern said:
			
		

> XXXXX, take it from (them), a veteran flamie from this topic, (we) will not stop.  Just say that (they) are sorry and move on.  Any argument (they) try and make with (us), no matter how reasonable, will go unnoticed amidst the flames (trust (them) whatever (we)'re about to say, (they)’ve said it and was wholeheartedly flamed for it).  At this point most people don’t care about what (they) have to say, but rather that (they) said something.  Take the advice (they) received from the padre and just move along.



Mike - A few grammatical errors (ah yes, a pun!) but works.  

Thaern -  Overall, while I promote individuality and personal expression, in this case I suspect you either have some form of masochism or just enjoy baiting people. Maybe both. 

Munky99999 - Stay away from the darkside!


----------



## Thaern

Not flamed eh?

Someone needs to tell me how to quote more than one person (right now i just hit the quote button on the post i wish to quote from)

"This is clearly the sort of errant pedantry, up with which we shall not put!" -Journeyman
"See , that is where you went wrong, you had a thought and followed it by another one.  For the love of god....stop thinking !!"-aesop081 
"Thaern, not only are you out of your lane, your travelling the wrong direction on a multi-lane freeway."-sdimock
"Could that be the final shot of this engagement, please?  The barbarians have withdrawn from the frontier voluntarily, stand down, guardians...."-Kat Stevens

And these are just some the good ones, there are about half a dozen or more that i didnt bother copying, the point is try reading the thread before adding your $0.02 usd ($20.21 Cnd)


----------



## George Wallace

Thaern.

Walk Away.  


Just Walk Away.


----------



## Trinity

Thaern said:
			
		

> Take the advice I received from the padre and just move along.



cough... cough...

No good will come of this, right or wrong...

My advice...  listen to George.   Walk away, let it go.  Pick and choose the battles.


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

Here's an extreme case, but it certainly highlights the importance of being diligent in your work:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060806.wr-rogers07/BNStory/Business/home


----------



## Shamrock

Here's one from one of my college grammar classes:

          _A woman without her man is nothing._

I think improperly punctuating this sentence can be potentially more worrisome than a mere $2 million.


----------



## pronto

I remember the famous "comma that saved a life"... Some Tsar wrote the death sentence of a prisoner: "Pardon impossible, to be sent to Siberia." His wife (Tsarina) figured the guy was innocent, and saved his life by transposing the comma. The sentence then read: "Pardon, impossible to be sent to Siberia." 

See? Grammar counts.

 >


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## George Wallace

Indeed it does.  It is all a matter of Punctuation:  




Dear John: 

I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind, thoughtful. People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior. You have ruined me for other men. I yearn for you. I have no feelings whatsoever when we're apart. I can be forever happy--will you let me be yours? 
Jane 




Dear John: 

I want a man who knows what love is. All about you are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you. Admit to being useless and inferior. You have ruined me. For other men, I yearn. For you, I have no feelings whatsoever. When we're apart, I can be forever happy. 
Will you let me be? 
Yours, 
Jane


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## pronto

Mr. Wallace:
That was amazing. I've not seen that one before, but it surely is added to my store of "goodies". I'll ascribe to you, and with your permission, I'll steal it!

 ;D

Thanks muchly


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## Centurian1985

Ditto, funny stuff, havent seen it before.


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## CdnArtyWife

I know this thread is almost a year old, but I thought it best not to post this in its own thread.

"The Impotence of Proofreading"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FjhOBiSk8Gg&mode=related&search=


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## Yrys

GOOD one 

like that one too :

Taylor Mali on what teachers make

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU&mode=related&search=


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## George Wallace

It looks like we on Army.ca/Milnet.ca aren't the only ones wondering and complaining about Grammar, Sentence Structure and Spelling:

Bad grammar backlash: Facebook groups, CBC show focus on state of the language is an article today.  It has some links to other cases, such as:  "Citizens Against Poor Grammar", "Grammar and Punctuation Are Your Friends", "Good Grammar IS Important", and many more links to even more links.  

So there really is a grassroots backlash to the poor use of the English language in today's formal communications.


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## Snaketnk

I believe the way any new member of the site should approach posting here is acting under the impression that each and every one of their posts represent the CF. If the forum were flooded by people posting spam, nonsense, and any other manner of unprofessional post, then someone visiting the forum could get the impression that the CF is full of undereducated High School dropouts; which for some trades is already an issue, in my experience. This is forum with an unusually mature user base, I'd wager that the majority of the internet forums out in intraweb land have a mean user age of 15. As a new user of the site, this is is my impression. I do not, however, claim to know the inside and out workings of this forum like the more experienced members.


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## karl28

I think having good grammar and sentence structure is really important if you want to be taking seriously .   I know that this is something that I have been working on  to try and improve .   It has been a while sense  I graduated high school (1995)  and I got lazy using the MSN talk on other sites so the way things are run here has helped me to try and change how I do post  all together .


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## Journeyman

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> *... could get the impression that the CF is full of undereducated High School dropouts; which for some trades is already an issue, in my experience.*


Well, if you have serious ambitions of succeeding in the infantry world, one thing you _must_ know......
the clauses on either side of a semi-colon must be grammatically complete in their own right; your second clause is not a complete sentence. 

Physical memory regarding the handling of your personal weapon in a TIC will come, but grammar must be practiced constantly!


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## Mike Bobbitt

I didn't really want to awaken an old debate, but I couldn't pass up this article in The Times: Why texting harms your IQ.

The article states that MSN speak drops your IQ more than twice as much as smoking pot.


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## Shamrock

Looks like text-messaging idiocy is genetic:

More parents using txt language to make their child's name gr8


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## midgetcop

Wow. As if growing up isn't difficult enough ALREADY.

THANKS, mom and dad. You suck.


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## ex-Sup

Gee, how did I miss this thread all these years? Where do you want me to start....

In all seriousness, I was just having this conversation with my first period class this morning. We were talking about slang of the 1920/30's and I mentioned how slang is becoming more pervasive since the advent of chats and texting. Some of them just cannot write and it's frustrating trying to convince them of that.  :brickwall:

Oh ya, is this an example of how technology is distracting us from our work? They are doing some seat work though


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## midgetcop

I'm not a teacher so I'm definitely not an expert....but could youths ever really write in the *first* place? I went to school with a lot of people whom struggled with English class, and I work with people now who are my age and still can't form a proper sentence or spell simple words. Are the kids really getting worse due to laziness, or are the poor spellers just latching onto to txt-speak because it's easier for them..?


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## teddybear

One thing I noticed when I was in school was that they stopped teaching grammar...it wasn't in the curriculum anymore. Then when I was in my final year, we were expected to write essays with correct grammar and most of the kids in my class didn't even know what a conjunction was. About the only ones that knew were those of us taking French because it was taught there. The English teacher was flabbergasted....apparently we were the first class that came through with the new English program that cut spelling and grammar out in Grade 7. So she had to put on extra English classes just to get the class up to snuff! Got to love how the provincial governments assume that students will just learn the skills without ever being taught them. I hope it's been changed since I left high school but I won't be holding my breath.


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## vonGarvin

the_midge said:
			
		

> I'm not a teacher so I'm definitely not an expert....but could youths ever really write in the *first* place? I went to school with a lot of people *whom * struggled with English class, and I work with people now who are my age and still can't form a proper sentence or spell simple words. Are the kids really getting worse due to laziness, or are the poor spellers just latching onto to txt-speak because it's easier for them..?


Beware of glass houses and all that.  We all make mistakes, as I've illustrated in the above quote ("who" is used as a subject in sentences, "whom" is a direct or indirect object.  In this case, you've erroneously used "whom").
Having said that, I'll take my own advice, because, as I stated, we all make mistakes, and I am usually lost without "Spellcheck".
As for your question, I feel that it is a mix of poor examples in popular media, "msn-speak", and also due to our buggered up language, which is germanic in origin but heavily "polluted" with romance (thank you very much, William the Bastard!) ;D
(Have you ever wondered why we often have two words that have the same meaning?  "Begin" and "Commence" mean the same thing, but one is from our germanic heritage and the other from our romance heritage!)


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## midgetcop

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Beware of glass houses and all that.  We all make mistakes, as I've illustrated in the above quote ("who" is used as a subject in sentences, "whom" is a direct or indirect object.  In this case, you've erroneously used "whom").
> Having said that, I'll take my own advice, because, as I stated, we all make mistakes, and I am usually lost without "Spellcheck".
> As for your question, I feel that it is a mix of poor examples in popular media, "msn-speak", and also due to our buggered up language, which is germanic in origin but heavily "polluted" with romance (thank you very much, William the *******!) ;D
> (Have you ever wondered why we often have two words that have the same meaning?  "Begin" and "Commence" mean the same thing, but one is from our germanic heritage and the other from our romance heritage!)



In all fairness...I never claimed to be perfect either. But English was one of my better subjects. Better than math, but that doesn't say much. 

I've been told by many people that English is one of the hardest to learn as a second language. Way too many exceptions, double-meanings, slang, etc. Maybe it's too much to ask that any of us get it right. **shrug**


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## Yrys

the_midge said:
			
		

> I've been told by many people that English is one of the hardest to learn as a second language. Way too many exceptions, double-meanings, slang, etc.



What was their first language ?

Mine is French, and considering the exceptions and ridiculous female/male words, archaism, etc, , I'm glad of it, wouldn't have to learn it as a second language!


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## midgetcop

Swedish and Polish. Both sound hard as hell to me, but I've always been horrible at picking up other languages. That includes French, for the reasons you mentioned!


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## ex-Sup

the_midge said:
			
		

> I'm not a teacher so I'm definitely not an expert....but could youths ever really write in the *first* place? I went to school with a lot of people whom struggled with English class, and I work with people now who are my age and still can't form a proper sentence or spell simple words. Are the kids really getting worse due to laziness, or are the poor spellers just latching onto to txt-speak because it's easier for them..?





			
				Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> As for your question, I feel that it is a mix of poor examples in popular media, "msn-speak", and also due to our buggered up language, which is germanic in origin but heavily "polluted" with romance (thank you very much, William the *******!) ;D


Well, here's my take (part 2...my first write-up vanished before I could submit it). I'm not an English teacher and definitely not an expert, just a simple history teacher. Having taught for 10 years, I've seen a lot of students and dealt with a lot of spelling and grammar issues. Even though I just teach history, proper language usage is a huge part of this subject area (especially with the big push of literacy across the curriculum). Being able to communicate your ideas and views is an integral part of historical study. It's been my observation that language skills have deteriorated in the time that I've been in the classroom and I don't foresee it getting better anytime soon. What's the problem? Basically a combination of all of the above mentioned ideas (instruction, msn, texting and general laziness). 

I don't teach elementary, but I do know that there have been changes made to the way that grammar, spelling, phonics, etc. are taught. As for the msn and texting, I think that it ties in to the whole laziness idea. Most teachers will tell you that there has been a steady erosion of work ethic among students. This is not to say that all of them are like this, but there are enough to garner a lot of attention. The ironic thing is that many of them still expect to get top marks, without the requisite work. For example, many have mastered the art of “cut and paste” (another reason why they can't spell) and have no idea how to create a written document. I tried to teach my Gr.12’s how to properly formulate, organize, write and reference a research essay; the looks of disbelief I got! Mind you, this is the same group that complained that I use too many “complicated” words.

I, like many of the posters here, have no issue in admitting my inadequacies. I think that my grammar is pretty good, but I do have a nasty habit of leaving out words (I will reread this post many times before submitting). I will often get my wife to proofread my work to catch my goofs. This, I believe, is the crux of the entire issue. To write properly (just like anything else), requires a lot of effort. If you're not willing to put the time into it, you'll never write well or improve. If I can't spell anything, I will make a point of looking it up in the dictionary (and showing them what a dictionary is).



			
				teddybear said:
			
		

> most of the kids in my class didn't even know what a conjunction was.


They need to bring back the commercials from Saturday morning cartoons...conjunction junction, what your function? ;D

edited to fix spelling


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## Edward Campbell

I hope members here will understand that communications in the field, in operations must go by: A, B, C:

*A*ccuracy;
*B*revity; and
*C*larity.

B can always be sacrificed, just a bit, to aid A and C which are indispensable.

As the language evolves some common forms may become acceptable in the field - as soon as we are sure that everyone will understand (C),

You may have to communicate, Clearly, Briefly and Accurately when you are tired, cold, wet and frightened. The modern, reliable, high-speed, high-capacity telecommunications we take for granted here in Canada may be unavailable - army radios have a nasty habit of going off the air just when you need them most - and Brevity and Clarity become paramount when you need to send a runner to Coy HQ to pass a 100% Accurate request for fire or air support.

Just as we should train as we plan to fight, we should communicate here much as we plan to communicate in operations - and that means, above all, Clearly. Some (many?) of us don;t understand _MSN-speak_ so when you use it you leave us in the dark.


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## ex-Sup

ex-Sup said:
			
		

> They need to bring back the commercials from Saturday morning cartoons...conjunction junction, what your function? ;D



Okay, so I couldn't help myself. Googled "Schoolhouse Rock." For those of you looking for a blast from the past, here you go:
http://www.school-house-rock.com/conjunction.htm
For those of you who have no idea what this is, google Saturday morning cartoons since they don't really exist anymore.  ;D


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## Shamrock

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Beware of glass houses and all that.  We all make mistakes, as I've illustrated in the above quote ("who" is used as a subject in sentences, "whom" is a direct or indirect object.  In this case, you've erroneously used "whom").



We've mostly abandoned the use of 'whom' anyhow -- I suspect one part because it's no longer taught in class and the other because WH movements are stupidly confusing without adding in the one and only W5H where accusative and nominative cases are different.  Personally, I'd like to see correct and proper usage of "I" and "me" taught.

Edit: 
I don't disagree with all the omissions teachers make from certain grammatical conventions; in my opinion, some of the prescriptive rules of English grammar were/are completely contradictory to perfectly acceptable constructs.  Split infinitives (to boldly go vs. to go boldly), hanging prepositions (which pot was the spaghetti cooked in vs. in which pot was the spaghetti cooked), and a few other examples come readily to mind that are grammatical sound but technical errors.


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## Edward Campbell

I believe dangling prepositions are a mortal sin, up with which we must not put! (Thanks, Mr. Churchill!)


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## PMedMoe

Never use a preposition to end a sentence with.   ;D


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## Yrys

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I hope members here will understand that communications in the field, in operations must go by: A, B, C:
> 
> *A*ccuracy;
> *B*revity; and
> *C*larity.
> 
> B can always be sacrificed, just a bit, to aid A and C which are indispensable.



*A*, *B*, *C* is also usefull in civilian life. 

However,  I still have not  achieve *B*revity . I'm not yet comfortable with how to achieve *B*revity, because I don't see how to do it and still retain *A*ccuracy. I can't help but felt that by going for *B*revity,
I'm losing some *A*ccuracy, to the point that it could be considered liars. 

Which make meeting with me longer then needed, and my "resuming" of it painfull to bored listeners... It is however usefull for friends, when they want account 
of programs or movies they missed, because they know that they will know EVERYTHING!


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## X-mo-1979

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd like to see correct and proper usage of "I" and "me" taught.




Like "Me tank got stuck in the mish,I know's I wasnt soaked!Me Boots was right fulled up wit water!"


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## armyvern

Yrys said:
			
		

> *A*, *B*, *C* is also usefull in civilian life.
> 
> However,  I still have not  achieve *B*revity . I'm not yet comfortable with how to achieve *B*revity, because I don't see how to do it and still retain *A*ccuracy. I can't help but felt that by going for *B*revity,
> I'm losing some *A*ccuracy, to the point that it could be considered liars.
> 
> Which make meeting with me longer then needed, and my "resuming" of it painfull to bored listeners... It is however usefull for friends, when they want account
> of programs or movies they missed, because they know that they will know EVERYTHING!



J,

You're not doing too badly for a franco. Look at me for crying out loud!! Old, english -- and still can't get my A, B, Cs down ...


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## vonGarvin

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd like to see correct and proper usage of "I" and "me" taught.


As would I.  I often hear people say things such as "Joe was talking to Jane and I."  I cringe.  It makes me cringe.  (It should be "Joe was talking to Jane and me."  Easy way to remember, if it were only you to you that Joe was talking, would you say "Joe was talking to I" or "Joe was talking to me"?)

Pet peeve of mine, I suppose...


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## Celticgirl

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> As would I.  I often hear people say things such as "Joe was talking to Jane and I."  I cringe.  It makes me cringe.  (It should be "Joe was talking to Jane and me."  Easy way to remember, if it were only you to you that Joe was talking, would you say "Joe was talking to I" or "Joe was talking to me"?)
> 
> Pet peeve of mine, I suppose...



Mine, too. I have a long list of grammar pet peeves, though. One of the big ones is people saying a person was "hung" (and not meaning well-endowed). People are hanged. Pictures are hung. I've even seen this egregious error in the newspapers! Shame, shame on them!  

Another of my pet peeves: It is correct to say "between you and *me*", _not _ "between you and *I*". Hearing the latter is like nails on a chalkboard to me.  :-X


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## armyvern

Here's mine:

"I _led_ the troops in that direction yesterday."

That's right -- it's _led_, not _lead_.

You will _lead_ them the other way ... tomorrow!!


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## vonGarvin

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Mine, too. I have a long list of grammar pet peeves, though. One of the big ones is people saying a person was "hung" (and not meaning well-endowed). People are hanged. Pictures are hung. I've even seen this egregious error in the newspapers! Shame, shame on them!


Question: if a person were to be hung on a wall (say, by the collar of their shirt on a coat hook as you often see in comedies), would they be "hung" or "hanged".

But that is a good example.  I was giving a tour of The RCR Museum many years ago, and when I got to the part about the Riel Rebellion, I mentioned that Riel was hanged, etc.  A young punk (of say grade 8 age or so) attempted to correct me, and said "He was hung, not hanged."  I corrected _him_ by saying that people are hanged, things are hung.  He was going to protest, but his teacher piped up and told him that I was correct.


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## vonGarvin

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Here's mine:
> 
> "I _led_ the troops in that direction yesterday."
> 
> That's right -- it's _led_, not _lead_.
> 
> You will _lead_ them the other way ... tomorrow!!


I am SO GUILTY of doing that, and I know better.  But I just write it off as my ever present problem with leadership  >


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## armyvern

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Question: if a person were to be hung on a wall (say, by the collar of their shirt on a coat hook as you often see in comedies), would they be "hung" or "hanged".
> 
> But that is a good example.  I was giving a tour of The RCR Museum many years ago, and when I got to the part about the Riel Rebellion, I mentioned that Riel was hanged, etc.  A young punk (of say grade 8 age or so) attempted to correct me, and said "He was hung, not hanged."  I corrected _him_ by saying that people are hanged, things are hung.  He was going to protest, but his teacher piped up and told him that I was correct.



Obviously it's: We hung them as we hanged them!! >


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## Celticgirl

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> Question: if a person were to be hung on a wall (say, by the collar of their shirt on a coat hook as you often see in comedies), would they be "hung" or "hanged".



I've had many students ask me the very same question.  ;D

If a person is hanged, it means they are _hanged from the neck until dead_. If someone is placed on a coat hook by his/her collar, he/she is hung (as a picture). But then, I suspect you already knew that this was correct, MR.


----------



## Celticgirl

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Here's mine:
> 
> "I _led_ the troops in that direction yesterday."
> 
> That's right -- it's _led_, not _lead_.
> 
> You will _lead_ them the other way ... tomorrow!!



Good one! Strange that no one confuses read/red, but lead/led causes a great deal of perplexity.


----------



## PMedMoe

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Good one! Strange that no one confuses read/red, but lead/led causes a great deal of perplexity.



But red is not the past tense of read, whereas led is the past tense of lead.
Usually, I say a sentence out loud, if I am having difficulty with the tense of a word.
I have to admit, the hanged and hung thing always gets me!  :-[


----------



## Celticgirl

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> But red is not the past tense of read, whereas led is the past tense of lead.



True, but other homonyms seem to trip people up, despite their very different meanings and usages. For example: there, they're, their  and here, hear   (I see people writing "here, here!" instead of "hear, hear!" and I have to admit, it makes me cringe a little.  )


----------



## ex-Sup

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> True, but other homonyms seem to trip people up, despite their very different meanings and usages. For example: there, they're, their  and here, hear   (I see people writing "here, here!" instead of "hear, hear!" and I have to admit, it makes me cringe a little.  )


On top of that, we're starting to see issues with basic stuff like to, too and two.


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