# UN Report:  World's Tensions Caused by ISR-Palestinian Conflict



## The Bread Guy (13 Nov 2006)

*No clash of civilizations, says UN report*
A UN-sponsored group says the Israel-Palestinian conflict is the main cause of global tensions.
Dan Murphy, Christian Science Monitor, 14 Nov 06
Article Link

A UN-sponsored group called the Alliance of Civilizations, created last year to find ways to bridge the growing divide between Muslim and Western societies, released a first report Monday that says the conflict over Israel and the Palestinian territories is the central driver in global tensions. 
"Our emphasis on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not meant to imply that it is the overt cause of all tensions between Muslim and Western societies," write the report's authors, a group of academics and present and former government officials from 19 different countries. "Nevertheless, it is our view that the Israeli-Palestinian issue has taken on a symbolic value that colors cross cultural and political relations ... well beyond its limited geographic scope."   But while the authors hope their report will invigorate and create cross-cultural dialogue, its tone implies that it is unlikely to be well received by the United States and Israel, focusing as it does on allegations of double standards by those two nations while giving less time to the faults of the Palestinians or specific Muslim governments ....

*Alliance of Civilizations - THE REPORT*
Overall
Full Report (.pdf)

Highlights:
Highlights of the High Level Group Report
The global context

Political and technological developments during the twentieth century raised the hope and possibility for an unprecedented period of harmony between nations and a vast improvement in global well-being.  For many, this hope has been dashed by the persistence of inequalities, growing poverty, increased fear and insecurity.  Aspects of globalization have been experienced by many communities as an assault. For
them, the prospect of greater well-being has come at a high price, which includes cultural homogenization, family dislocation, challenges to traditional lifestyles, and environmental degradation.
In this context, peoples who feel that they face persistent discrimination, humiliation, or marginalization are reacting by asserting their identity more aggressively.  Nowhere is this dynamic more prevalent than in relations between Western and Muslim societies.  Neither ancient history nor religious differences are responsible for present tensions between Western and Muslim populations. The root lies in the following political developments:
a. Western policies affecting Muslim countries
*• The Israeli-Palestinian issue has become a key symbol of the rift between Western and Muslim societies and remains one of the gravest threats to international stability.*
• Western military operations in Muslim countries contribute to a growing climate of fear and animosity that is spreading around the world. The spiralling death toll in Iraq and the ongoing conflict in Afghanistan help swell the ranks of terrorist groups.
• Moreover, the perception of double standards in the application of international law and the protection of human rights is increasing resentment and the sense of vulnerability felt by many Muslims around the globe.
b. Trends in Muslim societies
*• The current predicament from which much of the Muslim world suffers cannot be attributed solely to foreign interference.* An internal debate between progressive and regressive forces is playing out on a range of social and political issues throughout the Muslim world as well as on interpretations of Islamic law and traditions, generating deep divisions and, in some cases, leading to extremism and violence.
• In many cases, self-proclaimed religious figures have capitalized on a popular desire for religious guidance to advocate narrow, distorted interpretations of Islamic teachings. Such figures mis-portray certain cultural traditions, such as honor killings, corporal punishment, and suppression of women to make them appear as religious requirements.
• Resistance to reform and political repression have combined to deprive many Muslim countries of the impetus, hope, and energy needed to achieve economic and social progress.

Notwithstanding the critical state of relations between Muslim and Western societies described in the Report, the High-level Group firmly asserts that there is nothing inevitable or insurmountable in these conditions. Indeed, because the causes of current tensions are political – and not religious or
cultural – they are also solvable.

Principal recommendations:
*• The international community should seek a settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with a renewed sense of urgency.* Progress on this front rests on the recognition of both the Palestinian and Jewish national aspirations and on the establishment of two fully sovereign and independent states co-existing side by side in peace and security.
• To support this process, the report recommends the development of a White Paper analyzing the Israeli-Palestinian landscape dispassionately and objectively, giving voice to the competing narratives on both sides, reviewing the successes and failures of previous peace efforts, and establishing clearly the conditions that must be met to find a way out of this crisis.
• The High-level Group calls for the convening, as soon as possible, of an international conference, to be attended by all the relevant actors, to reinvigorate the Middle East peace process. Without a just and dignified solution, all efforts – including recommendations contained in this report – to bridge the gap between Muslim and Western societies are likely to meet with limited success.
• One of the contributing factors to the rise in extremism is the suppression of nonviolent political movements in the Muslim world. Therefore, *it is in the interest of Muslim and Western societies alike that ruling parties in the Muslim world provide the space for the full participation of peaceful political groups, whether religious or secular in nature.*
• Many of the issues feeding tensions between Muslim and Western societies arise at the crossroads of politics and religion. Among them is the potentially destructive impact of inflammatory language sometimes used by political and religious leaders and the effect such language can have when amplified by the media. Therefore, the report urges leaders and shapers of public opinion to behave responsibly and do everything in their power to promote understanding among cultures and mutual respect of religious belief and traditions.
• In addition, the report recommends the appointment by the UN Secretary-General of a High Representative to assist in defusing cross cultural tensions, build bridges of understanding and create pathways toward reconciliation, especially in times of crisis.
• A Forum for the Alliance of Civilizations should be established under UN auspices to provide a regular venue for representatives of governments, international organizations, civil society, and the private sector to forge partnerships and to express commitments for action.

Beyond the political steps recommended in the Report, the High-level Group notes have reached into the hearts and minds of populations. To counter this, they recommend, in the fields of education, media, youth and migration a range of concrete proposals, including:
Media
• Training in intercultural understanding for journalists. Such training programs are aimed at widening understanding of critical issues – particularly those at the intersection of religion and politics – to encourage balanced coverage.
• Development of media content to help promote intercultural dialogue.  Political, religious and cultural leaders should generate articles, op-eds and media statements that help defuse tensions between communities, taking advantage of heightened media interest during times of crisis.
Education
• Critical review of educational materials. Government and religious leaders should work together to establish review panels to ensure that education materials meet guidelines for fairness, accuracy and balance in discussing religious beliefs.  Neither materials that denigrate other faiths, nor those accounts of the historical past that ignore the contributions and collective achievements of other cultures and nations should remain unchallenged.
• Media literacy: Among the challenges of absorbing new technologies into healthy societies, few can be more important than educating citizens in media literacy. Development of media literacy programs in schools to help young minds differentiate between reliable and unreliable sources of information and become more critical about what they see and read in the global media.

Youth
• Scaling up the number of youth exchanges. High-level Group members urge the United States, the European Union and the Organization of the Islamic Conference to expand the number of youth exchanges under existing programs in order to increase cross-cultural understanding among young people.
• Developing networks of youth oriented websites. Religious leaders and civil society activists should create a network of websites that link youth to religious scholars who speak in constructive ways about the challenges facing young people today.
Migration
• Developing media campaigns to combat discrimination. *The High-level Group urge American and European universities to expand research into the significant contributions of immigrant communities to American and European life.* Such research would support media campaigns highlighting the social, cultural and economic contributions of immigrants and the benefits of cultural diversity.


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## a_majoor (14 Nov 2006)

Interesting that although most of the problems in Islamic societies is identified as internal (lack of opportunities, resistance to change etc.), the UN report is still used as an opportunity to scapegoat Israel.

Maybe it is time to tell these dysfunctional societies to look in the mirror and get sorted. We should help the process along by no longer aiding and abetting the ruling elites of these societies, including stopping pretending that just because their representatives wear silk suits they are not thugs, and treating them accordingly.


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## Yrys (14 Nov 2006)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6145522.stm

Myth and reality feed West-Muslim gulf

..."One of our major conclusions is that the divide is not religious or cultural but political."

..."They are political causes: when people are poor, when people are hungry or humiliated. But religion is morally neutral."


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## North Star (14 Nov 2006)

Let's think for a second. 

Let's say for the sake of argument that the Palestinian question is solved (if indeed it can be, as great numbers of them won't be satisfied until Israel is completely destroyed). Does this overcome Islamists beef with "western civilization"? Having read many statements by Al-Qaeda and OBL, it seems unlikely. Just as the west has fallen to the negative perceptions of "orientalism", so too have Arabs (note - not all muslim) have fallen victim to "occidentalism" which portrays the west in their media as soul-less, cruel, and decadent. We in the west, during the Romantic movement, saw ourselves the same way - as a mechnistic society comprising of "dark satanic mills", cruelty, and no communal ties whatsoever. Al-Qaeda's imagery of the west is eerily similar to those of the Romantics, only taken one step furhter to dehumanize everyone and everything western. This conflict is therefore highly religious, as radical Islam is offered as a contrast to this terrible "other", offering conformity, community, and stability and used to fuel the struggle. 

The fact of the matter is there is no magic bullet. While solving the Palestinian question may help ease tensions a little, it won't overcome the cultural contempt radical Islam has for the west. The perceived grievance would only be shifted onto some other question (such as the treatment of the Umma living in Europe, proto-marxist questions of wealth, the very existence of Israel, etc). This isn't about development at all. Most countries in the Middle East are much richer than African ones, and yet African countries aren't a hotbed for religious extremism aimed at the west. When was the last time you heard of a Congolese terrorist blowing up anything in the US, Europe, of the UK?

Who was on the panel that crafted this report? I suspect they're old hardcore internationalist marxists whose bias got in the way of examining evidence contradicting their pre-determined conclusion....


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## tomahawk6 (14 Nov 2006)

For my money this conflict IS all about religion. The economic factors are the fault of the Palestinians. They essentially have made a choice between economic prosperity and conflict. Palestinians used to have jobs inside Israel until the Israelis got tired of the constant suicide bombs and built a fence greatly restricting Palestians working inside Israel. When the fence is complete the Israelis will have a made a choice between security over a work force of potential enemies. As a result the Palestinian economy will be dependent on charity. As is the arab way corruption siphons off money that could go to the people, into the bank accounts of the leadership.

As long as the Palestinians are determined to fight their economy will keep the people dirt poor, which must be what the leadership of Hamas and Fatah want. The Palestinians now are converting Gaza into a mini version of southern lebanon with increasingly sophisticated weaponry imported.

In southern Lebanon Hizbollah has rearmed bringing missile/rocket inventories up to 30,000 weapons. All this under the "watchful" eye of UNIFIL. They have returned to their bases in southern Lebanon and prepare for the next round of fighting with Israel which some experts think will kick off by next spring. As long as the islamists drive the anti-Israel effort there will be no victory until one side or the other is destroyed.

Politically Europe could care less if Israel is wiped off the face of the earth,in fact some countries would prefer this to occur in the mistaken belief that the world will be a safer place. If Israel is ever destroyed the Islamists will target the pro-western governments in the region.Once they are overcome then they will target key regions of Africa and southern Europe.We are now seeing the ascendancy of Iran and its brand of islam.


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Nov 2006)

The conflict is a "symbol" because of the intense media reporting, likely because the media can fly into Israel, stay at nice hotel, drive Gaza, West bank do their story and be back in Israel by night fall, a very civilized way to report a war. Otherwise it means going to nasty dangerous places like Dafur, Rawanda, checyna, Congo, Iraq or Afghanistan.


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## geo (14 Nov 2006)

maybe it should be said that coutries with their own problems are doing like Germany did in the 30s.... gather the collective support of their population by concentrating their attention on an external - unifying guiney pig.....
The germans did it, the Russians did it, the Poles did it..... all good sport 
Why shouldn't the North African countries get in on the same sport?

(ok - cynical switch - OFF)


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## Bo (14 Nov 2006)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> For my money this conflict IS all about religion. The economic factors are the fault of the Palestinians. They essentially have made a choice between economic prosperity and conflict. Palestinians used to have jobs inside Israel until the Israelis got tired of the constant suicide bombs and built a fence greatly restricting Palestians working inside Israel. When the fence is complete the Israelis will have a made a choice between security over a work force of potential enemies. As a result the Palestinian economy will be dependent on charity. As is the arab way corruption siphons off money that could go to the people, into the bank accounts of the leadership.



What economic prosperity? Israel already controlled most of the West Bank through checkpoints, incursions on populated areas, controlled roads and curfews.
No country in the world would accept being occupied. Why should Palestine accept that? Israel should withdraw all settlements and troops out of the West Bank, then we can talk.







http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/settlements_checkpoints.stm




> As long as the Palestinians are determined to fight their economy will keep the people dirt poor, which must be what the leadership of Hamas and Fatah want. The Palestinians now are converting Gaza into a mini version of southern lebanon with increasingly sophisticated weaponry imported.
> 
> In southern Lebanon Hizbollah has rearmed bringing missile/rocket inventories up to 30,000 weapons. All this under the "watchful" eye of UNIFIL. They have returned to their bases in southern Lebanon and prepare for the next round of fighting with Israel which some experts think will kick off by next spring. As long as the islamists drive the anti-Israel effort there will be no victory until one side or the other is destroyed.
> 
> Politically Europe could care less if Israel is wiped off the face of the earth,in fact some countries would prefer this to occur in the mistaken belief that the world will be a safer place. If Israel is ever destroyed the Islamists will target the pro-western governments in the region.Once they are overcome then they will target key regions of Africa and southern Europe.We are now seeing the ascendancy of Iran and its brand of islam.



That's it, keep trying to make Palestine sound like it is a threat to Israel. What a joke! Should I even get into what's in Israel's arsenal? Or what they get from the US?

So we have an illegal occupation and people are still disputing the cause of this conflict?


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## North Star (14 Nov 2006)

Colin P,

I recently came back from 25 days in Egypt, travelling the Nile Valley and Western Sahara. The only ads I saw on television were for aid to Lebanon and the Palestinian Territories.

Oddly enough, the humanitarian disaster right next door (Darfur) wasn't mentioned. Only the BBC had stuff on it. 

It's not only our media, but theirs. I suspect the motives of their media (support only the Umma) are far more calculated than ours (where can I get a latte and a ethernet jack?)


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## North Star (14 Nov 2006)

Bo,

Do you think the Palestinian Authority has the political will to enforce a ceasefire against Israel, or does the current administration have a vested interest (to maintain legitimacy) to continue an armed struggle against it?

If the PA doesn't want to/can't stop its citizens from attacking Israel, then would it be acceptable for the Israeli government to permit a security vacuum on its borders that is characterized by attacks against its citizens?

Fact of the matter is, until the PA can guarantee internal order, Israel is justified in conducting incursions. But the PA doesn't give a damn about order, because the Palestinian elites (as they have emerged after the past 30 years) only know how to use terrorism and hate to maintain themselves. Until the Palestinian elites (both Hamas and Fatah, both play at this) are replaced, Israel will conduct operations in the West Bank and Gaza strip.


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## Journeyman (14 Nov 2006)

Gee, a group created to study Muslim/Western conflict finds that "conflict over Israel and the Palestinian territories is the central driver in global tensions."

What are the odds? 

I guess it was time that the "capitalist mode of production" stopped being the whipping boy for _all_ the world's problems.  :


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## Bruce Monkhouse (14 Nov 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> No country in the world would accept being occupied.
> 
> That's it, keep trying to make Palestine sound like it is a threat to Israel. What a joke! Should I even get into what's in Israel's arsenal?



Hmm, East Germany, Poland,...need I go on?.....I'm trying to remember if they let their kids go out and throw rocks at tanks?

They ARE a threat, ask the families of suicide bomber attacks.  As for the arsenal thing I guess the difference is that one side would surely use it if they had it........


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## Bo (14 Nov 2006)

North Star,

As long as Israel illegally occupies Palestine, the fighting will not stop. The population will never accept their own government suppressing their right to fight the occupier. Would you? Regardless of whether the PA has the political will to enforce a ceasefire or has a vested interest in conflict, the people will continue to fight. Any Palestinian governement that ignores their own people's right to a free country shall be replaced with one who fights for that freedom. It's that simple.

The PA cannot/will not stop it's citizens from attacking Israel. Israel will not allow a security vacuum on its borders that is characterized by attacks. The result - incursions by the IDF.

Fact of the matter is, nearly every country in the world recognizes that Palestine is under illegal occupation yet nothing is done. It is not up to Palestine to make the first move towards peace but, rather, it is Israel. Withdraw from the West Bank and you'll have your peace. Israel will probably fall apart because of internal conflicts but that's another story.


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## North Star (14 Nov 2006)

I don't recall there being a right for citizens under Geneva Convention IV to fight an occupier, unless they either spontaneously take up arms on the initial approach or do the whole uniform/respect non-combatants thing. To date, the major Palestinian terror groups have not gone out and respected those simple provisions. They employ ambulances to move missiles, dress like everyone else, target civilian populations, use human shields, etc. A civilian population has certain rights, but actively fighting isn't one of them. That's the problem with the Palestinian question - the PA refuses to combat illegal armed movements within their own borders, and as such they've opened themselves to occupation as it's the Israeli government's job to protect its own citizens against attack, and not the soveriegnty of other states. 

Aside - You also make the erroneous assumption a "people" have a "right" to a country. Although I view this entire topic as a Red Herring, according to this logic the Gypsies should carve out a homeland, as should the Kurds, or any other group that one day decides they're a "nation". Likewise, Jews don't have a "right" to their own state, but the Zionists have carved one out. Now that it's there, the world just has to deal with it. 

The solution to this problem is not Israel's responsibility alone. It's also the responsibility of those who make up the leadership of the PA to show to their own people that wallowing in hate isn't going to work, and that the pipe-dream of destroying Israel is unrealistic. If the Palestinians want a state, their government has to act like that of a state and establish a monopoly on the use of force within its borders. 

As for the internal dynamics of Israel, I doubt it will fall apart. It's been under intense pressure before and has survived. When Sharon cleared out some settlements survived even the wailing of the orthodox establishment. They're also too afraid of genocide to allow themselves to fall into internal bickering whilst their neighbours watch. 

As for whether I would fight an occupier, I would within a uniformed, legitimate context.


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## The Bread Guy (14 Nov 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> Fact of the matter is, nearly every country in the world recognizes that Palestine is under illegal occupation yet nothing is done. It is not up to Palestine to make the first move towards peace but, rather, it is Israel. Withdraw from the West Bank and you'll have your peace.



Sorta like when the Israelis pulled out of Gaza the last time? Or like the bad guys stopped shooting when Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000?

If one of the major parties on the Palestinian side isn't willing to drop the public stance of wanting Israel wiped off the face of the earth, and the other major party is either going along, or not willing to get a grip, you have to wonder how sincere would any talk of compromise from that side be?  Yes, it's possible this messaging is just for their "base", or whatever, but how do you square that with any talk (even through back channels) of peace from the Palestinians?  Heck, Hamas & Fatah can't even work with each other - how do you expect them to be open arms to ISR?

I'm willing to see undisputed evidence of the Palestinians really wanting a peaceful future next to Israel to weigh against statements like this (Reuters, 14 Nov 06):

"The ruling Islamic group Hamas said on Tuesday *a planned Palestinian unity government would not recognize Israel or accept a two-state solution to the Middle East conflict as demanded by Israel and the United States.*  The stance could undercut Palestinian efforts to ease an eight-month-old Western economic boycott by forming a unity cabinet more acceptable to the West.  The United States and its partners in the Quartet of Middle East mediators imposed the boycott to pressure Hamas, which took control of the Authority in March, to recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce violence and accept existing peace deals."

OK, maybe it's not black&white (if we believe the Associated Press here:)

"Hamas said Tuesday it would not recognize Israel even after a new national unity government takes power, but suggested that *the emerging coalition would be free to stake out a more moderate position.*  Hamas apparently hopes this ambiguity will allow it to preserve its anti-Israel ideology but open the door to an easing of crippling international sanctions, imposed to pressure the current, Hamas-led government to moderate. Despite the sanctions, Hamas has repeatedly rejected international demands to recognize Israel, renounce violence and respect past peace accords."

Is Israel illegally occupying Palestine?  Maybe, BUT remember that Israelis won a lot of that territory from all the OTHER neighbours who wanted to push Israel into the sea on several occasions.  Would an independent Palestine stop being a threat to Israel?  I remain to be convinced....


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## Brad Sallows (14 Nov 2006)

>Withdraw from the West Bank and you'll have your peace.

You mean the peace before Israel ever held the West Bank?  Good call, bright boy.


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## Yrys (14 Nov 2006)

Hijack

I sense irony here, but I don't know how the west bank look before 1950...

Could someone cue me in, please?

End hijack


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## tlg (14 Nov 2006)

It took six days for the Israelis to defend themselves FROM attack and push the attackers back. Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria all dropped that ball. They are still pissed because not only did they lose a war, they lost it in 6 days as well as lost land. Land that the Palestinians claim is theirs along with all of Israel. There is pride at stake. Pride that should be left for dead and a new pride born. In most cases this happens (Germany, Japan - WWII), in some cases it doesn't. The UN has dropped the ball yet again. Too bad they don't realize it.


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## geo (14 Nov 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> What economic prosperity? Israel already controlled most of the West Bank through checkpoints, incursions on populated areas, controlled roads and curfews.
> No country in the world would accept being occupied. Why should Palestine accept that? Israel should withdraw all settlements and troops out of the West Bank, then we can talk.
> 
> So we have an illegal occupation and people are still disputing the cause of this conflict?



Bo,

Key point here is that Hamas, like Hezbolah, continue to deny the existance of the Israeli state.  
The US aids Israel in its armament
Iran, Syria & others aid Hamas & Hezbolah in its armament

While Israel may not be squeeky clean, neither is anyone else.


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## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2006)

> It seems to me I've heard that song before
> It's from an old familiar score
> I know it well, that melody
> 
> ...


I've Heard That Song Before
J. Styne/S. Cahn
Performed by
Frank Sinatra 
http://www.risa.co.uk/sla/song.php?songid=13656


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Nov 2006)

North Star said:
			
		

> Colin P,
> 
> I recently came back from 25 days in Egypt, travelling the Nile Valley and Western Sahara. The only ads I saw on television were for aid to Lebanon and the Palestinian Territories.
> 
> ...



Similar in Malaysia where mostly only the Islamic view gets shown, although the citizens there are a bit more free to explore for different views. I feel for the average Pal, caught between a rock and a hard place. Everytime Israel eases up on the border crossings, some nutbars attacks it or tries to smuggle a bomber through. Their are Israelis that try to keep economic partnerships going, but the Pals involved have to be careful or they will be lynched as "spies" Hamas does not want any form of normalcy, hard to recruit suicide bombers if people have jobs, hope and aren't being shot at by the IDF.


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## Dare (15 Nov 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> What economic prosperity? Israel already controlled most of the West Bank through checkpoints, incursions on populated areas, controlled roads and curfews.


Explain how a couple dozen checkpoints can control an entire country of millions of people?


> No country in the world would accept being occupied. Why should Palestine accept that? Israel should withdraw all settlements and troops out of the West Bank, then we can talk.


What happens every time Israel withdraws? Do you not notice the pattern? Do you recall the beautiful greenhouses that were obliterated by the Palestinians when given to them? They now build tunnels there into Israel to kill more Israelis. 

This war has absolutely nothing to do with economic conditions and everything to do with cultist behavior. Every inch of ground ceded to the Palestinians is ground that Israel will one day have to shed blood to recapture or pacify.


> That's it, keep trying to make Palestine sound like it is a threat to Israel. What a joke! Should I even get into what's in Israel's arsenal? Or what they get from the US?


Israel's arsenal is powerful because of who else surrounds them. Those others fuel this conflict. If it were simply Palestine vs Israel (Painting Israel as Goliath) it'd be one thing, but it's really every Islamic government in the area Vs Israel (Painting Israel as David). The Palestinians have sophisticated anti-tank weaponry now. It's really a matter of time until they are able to lead offensive assaults.


> So we have an illegal occupation and people are still disputing the cause of this conflict?


Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Illegal under who's law? I do believe the law of self-defense is one of the most sacred and inalienable laws since the history of laws! The UN is an authority on nothing but waste. If someone had in their mandate for life an article that you, personally, were to be killed, would you not feel obliged to prevent that from happening?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Nov 2006)

I just read on the 'ticker news' that Egypt is holding a Palestine legislator for questioning as he had 2 million dollars on him trying to cross into Egypt.


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## geo (15 Nov 2006)

trying to cross INTO Egypt?
sounds like this guy is just taking money to his local branch of Crédit Suisse.
There have been several attempts to bring money into Gaza - to pay gov't employees / and these guys would be stopped and the $$ seized & held


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## Kirkhill (15 Nov 2006)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Hijack
> 
> I sense irony here, but I don't know how the west bank look before 1950...
> 
> ...



As tlg was saying Yrys, West Bank was lost by the Palestinians when their Arab friends wrote a check they couldn't cash.  They started a war and lost the war quickly and lost the land.

In 1947 the UN agreed that the Israelis should get all of modern Israel minus the  West Bank, the Golan, Gaza and Jerusalem.  That was too much land for the Palestinians and the Arabs.  So they launched their wars to drive the Jewish settlers out of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Galilee all the places not, supposedly, currently in dispute.  They attacked and failed in 1948.  They failed again in 1967.

Having said that the Palestinians didn't offer the land to the Israelis and there are many Hasidic Jews that had lived in Palestine (centred on Hebron and Jerusalem)prior to the 1880s who were opposed to the state of Israel.  And, as can be seen from the continuing actions of some Jewish settlers, there is a faction within Israel that wants to expand still further.

There is enough malfeasance on both sides here, not to mention all the external actors, to make it impossible (IMHO) to declare who is in the right and who in the wrong. 

On the other hand the locals should be used to this by now.  They have been the grass below the elephants' feet since before the Egyptians and the Hittites contested the ground 4000 years ago.


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## Bo (15 Nov 2006)

Dare said:
			
		

> Explain how a couple dozen checkpoints can control an entire country of millions of people?



''A Checkpoint is a barrier built by the Israeli Defense Forces or Border Police to limit the movement of Palestinians who lack necessary permits. Normally, Israeli citizens, settlers and foreigners move through the checkpoints without being stopped. Palestinians with permits frequently experience extreme delays and humiliation at these barriers. On occasions, deaths have occurred at checkpoints when individuals, including pregnant women in labor, have been unable to reach hospitals. Often farm produce, especially from Gaza, has spoiled at checkpoints due to delays of up to several days.''

"What is a checkpoint? Let me give you a brief description. Usually it's some cement blocks in the road that you have to stop at. Soldiers with big guns motion for you to come forward when they want; sometimes they'll keep cars for hours while they stand around and joke with each other. Usually there's maybe one soldier checking a long line of idling cars and one checking a long line of tired pedestrians, and about five sitting in the shade, doing no apparent 'work.'  Some times they let you through with a cursory ID check, sometimes they make you unload all of your gear, they check under the vehicle, they question you about irrelevant facts, and they turn you back. At checkpoints near Jewish settlements, there is a separate way, without a stop, for settlers, who are distinguished by yellow Israeli license plates as opposed to green Palestinian ones. Allegedly set up for Israeli 'security,' their effect, as I'm sure I've said before, is to slowly strangle Palestinian life and freedom."   (reflections from Liala)

http://www.jatonyc.org/checkpoint.html





> What happens every time Israel withdraws? Do you not notice the pattern? Do you recall the beautiful greenhouses that were obliterated by the Palestinians when given to them? They now build tunnels there into Israel to kill more Israelis.



When Israel withdrew from Gaza, they were busy building more settlements in the West Bank! Nice distraction though. And do you remember the amount of media coverage the withdrawal received? All you would see on CNN were poor Israeli families being forced out of there homes. But NO coverage on the increase in building settlements in the West Bank where Palestinians were routinely having their homes bulldozed down to make room for Israeli settlements.
And Gaza still isn't really free. Israel still controls all land, sea and air borders.




> This war has absolutely nothing to do with economic conditions and everything to do with cultist behavior. Every inch of ground ceded to the Palestinians is ground that Israel will one day have to shed blood to recapture or pacify.Israel's arsenal is powerful because of who else surrounds them. Those others fuel this conflict. If it were simply Palestine vs Israel (Painting Israel as Goliath) it'd be one thing, but it's really every Islamic government in the area Vs Israel (Painting Israel as David). The Palestinians have sophisticated anti-tank weaponry now. It's really a matter of time until they are able to lead offensive assaults.Possession is 9/10 of the law.



This is not a war. Israel has occupied Palestine and has built settlements ON PALESTINIAN LAND for over 400,000 settlers. This conflict is about occupation and the effects of living under occupation.



> Illegal under who's law? I do believe the law of self-defense is one of the most sacred and inalienable laws since the history of laws! The UN is an authority on nothing but waste. If someone had in their mandate for life an article that you, personally, were to be killed, would you not feel obliged to prevent that from happening?




Article 49, paragraph 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly stipulates "the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies". 
Article 46 of the Hague Convention prohibits the confiscation of private property in occupied territory. The confiscation of land by the Israeli government for settlement construction is in violation of this article. 
Article 55 of the Hague Convention stipulates that "the occupying state shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct." This means that the occupying power does not become the owner of the territories and properties of the occupied country and does not use them for serving the interests of its civilians. This rule applies to all of the occupied territory's natural resources. 
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/settlement.html

There are too many laws that Israel has broken to list here. Those are just a few regarding occupation.


Yes Kirkhill, this whole Palestinian-Israel subject has been beaten to death, I know. But as long as people on this site continue to label Palestinians as terrorists while praising Israeli actions, I'll voice my opinion and try to shed some light on things the media fails to mention.


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## tlg (15 Nov 2006)

As I'm busy trying to write an essay for Basic I'm going to make this quick. I don't see the people on this forum "label Palestinians as terrorists". I see that people are ACTUALLY supporting FACTS for BOTH sides that BOTH sides are EQUALLY wrong. You're just pissed (Like the PA) that no one is completely on your side here. I'm on the Israeli side. I've said before and I'll say it again. When someone come in to YOUR house to kick your teeth in and steel you're belongings and instead you not only beat the bloody piss out of them and take over their house(s) (bad metaphor I know), you have no right to bitch and complain. You lost, suck it up. Now you can either acknowledge that you screwed the pooch, or you can pull of the whole pestilence act, which the PA seems to happy to allow. Or you can try many years later to try and take back your home by force. This happened during the Yom Kippur War (which Egypt and Syria started on a religious holiday), and get your lowly can kicked yet again. Shall I continue with who started what, and why it was started. Although I've got this essay to write I would love to debate facts over unfacts (falses?).


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## Brad Sallows (15 Nov 2006)

There is a colourful map in this Wiki article which illustrates what the West Bank started out as and, to a reasonably astute observer, why in Arab hands it constitutes a considerable defense problem for the Israeli state.  Yes, it's occupied land.  It'll stay occupied.  If you declare your intention to kill someone and he wins the resulting scrap, don't whine about the consequences.


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## Dare (15 Nov 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> ''A Checkpoint is a barrier built by the Israeli Defense Forces or Border Police to limit the movement of Palestinians who lack necessary permits. Normally, Israeli citizens, settlers and foreigners move through the checkpoints without being stopped. Palestinians with permits frequently experience extreme delays and humiliation at these barriers. On occasions, deaths have occurred at checkpoints when individuals, including pregnant women in labor, have been unable to reach hospitals. Often farm produce, especially from Gaza, has spoiled at checkpoints due to delays of up to several days.''
> 
> "What is a checkpoint? Let me give you a brief description. Usually it's some cement blocks in the road that you have to stop at. Soldiers with big guns motion for you to come forward when they want; sometimes they'll keep cars for hours while they stand around and joke with each other. Usually there's maybe one soldier checking a long line of idling cars and one checking a long line of tired pedestrians, and about five sitting in the shade, doing no apparent 'work.'  Some times they let you through with a cursory ID check, sometimes they make you unload all of your gear, they check under the vehicle, they question you about irrelevant facts, and they turn you back. At checkpoints near Jewish settlements, there is a separate way, without a stop, for settlers, who are distinguished by yellow Israeli license plates as opposed to green Palestinian ones. Allegedly set up for Israeli 'security,' their effect, as I'm sure I've said before, is to slowly strangle Palestinian life and freedom."   (reflections from Liala)
> 
> http://www.jatonyc.org/checkpoint.html


They're looking for suicide bombers... because suicide bombers kill Israelis. And "delays, humiliation, ID checks, etc" do not equate to control of the millions of people.



> When Israel withdrew from Gaza, they were busy building more settlements in the West Bank! Nice distraction though. And do you remember the amount of media coverage the withdrawal received? All you would see on CNN were poor Israeli families being forced out of there homes. But NO coverage on the increase in building settlements in the West Bank where Palestinians were routinely having their homes bulldozed down to make room for Israeli settlements.
> And Gaza still isn't really free. Israel still controls all land, sea and air borders.


No, all I saw on CNN was the celebration of western academics, journalists and CAIR types. I saw Israeli citizens portrayed as greedy squatters. Were you actually watching CNN? I really doubt it. Nice distraction, though.. *ISRAEL WITHDREW* and to no benefit to Israel, and the Palestinians squandered all that was given to them. Israel did what the left want them to do, and it served them in no way at all but to bring their enemies closer. If every major political party in Palestine wasn't committed to destroying Israel, I'm sure there would be little need for aggressive expansion into enemy territory, and we could all hold hands and sing songs together.


> This is not a war. Israel has occupied Palestine and has built settlements ON PALESTINIAN LAND for over 400,000 settlers. This conflict is about occupation and the effects of living under occupation.


Nonsense. It's a war. Either Palestine is a state or it is not a state. You can't have it both ways. Either way, the occupants of this disputed territory have conducted Acts of War on Israel. Just because the combatants are not engaged all the time doesn't reverse that fact.  Palestine does not acknowledge the existence of Israel. It is not Israel that makes war upon Palestine, but the other way around. Everytime Israel disengages, they get attacked. Enough said.


> Article 49, paragraph 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly stipulates "the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies".
> Article 46 of the Hague Convention prohibits the confiscation of private property in occupied territory. The confiscation of land by the Israeli government for settlement construction is in violation of this article.
> Article 55 of the Hague Convention stipulates that "the occupying state shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct." This means that the occupying power does not become the owner of the territories and properties of the occupied country and does not use them for serving the interests of its civilians. This rule applies to all of the occupied territory's natural resources.
> http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/settlement.html
> ...


That is all predicated on Israel being a "occupier". 

Art. 42.

Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the _*authority*_* of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. 

Hmm. So, perhaps the checkpoints can be considered occupied territory. Considering the Israeli army does not extend authority to all of Palestine. The Palestinian National Authority does this and has this authority. 

Would you like me to go through the laws that Palestinians have broken? It's quite a bit longer .. and more accurately applied.



			Yes Kirkhill, this whole Palestinian-Israel subject has been beaten to death, I know. But as long as people on this site continue to label Palestinians as terrorists while praising Israeli actions, I'll voice my opinion and try to shed some light on things the media fails to mention.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, keep spreading the light. Palestinians are highly supportive of terrorist groups. Terrorist groups that the Government of Canada identify as terrorist groups. 

Do you agree with the Government of Canada?
Do you think that Israel has a right to exist, at all?
If yes, do you think Israel has a right to exist in the middle east?
If yes, by which borders must they fit into?
If yes, how should Israel respond to rocket attacks and suicide bombings?
If yes, how should Israel respond to threats of neighbouring governments?

If no.. seen. 
*


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## paracowboy (15 Nov 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> blah blah blah..terrorists are good...blah blah...Iran is good...blah blah...Israel is the source of all Evil....blah blah...I am a terrorist sympathizer


yeah, we get it. You don't grasp who the good guys are. We understand. Enough already.


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