# Devil's Advocate:  USA invades CAN



## Skysix (5 May 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Don't know about the Ukrainian Territorials - currently they seem motivated to supply full time labour.   The Danish Territorials the commitment is unpaid and entirely voluntary.  They learn as much as they like when they like and do what they like depending on the qualifications they have achieved.  It is a large force that like most voluntary organizations "normally" only contributes a few members to operations.  But the Ukrainians are demonstrating what the potential of such an organization is when the population is motivated.
> 
> And I agree, it is much more like the Canadian Rangers terms of service than the Reserves/Militia.


Devils Advocate time: could or would Canada do as well/anything if a MegaMaga inspired military invasion to sieze oilfields or water resources occurred? A similar scenario existed for Ukraine/Russia from 1991 to 2014.


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## Kirkhill (5 May 2022)

Skysix said:


> Devils Advocate time: could or would Canada do as well/anything if a MegaMaga inspired military invasion to sieze oilfields or water resources occurred? A similar scenario existed for Ukraine/Russia from 1991 to 2014.


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## KevinB (5 May 2022)

Skysix said:


> Devils Advocate time: could or would Canada do as well/anything if a MegaMaga inspired military invasion to sieze oilfields or water resources occurred? A similar scenario existed for Ukraine/Russia from 1991 to 2014.


We are waiting till Trudeau takes all your guns


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## Remius (5 May 2022)

Skysix said:


> Devils Advocate time: could or would Canada do as well/anything if a MegaMaga inspired military invasion to sieze oilfields or water resources occurred? A similar scenario existed for Ukraine/Russia from 1991 to 2014.


Unless we had more numbers and a sugar daddy country supplying us with kit then no.  Plus a mega maga inspired could just come and take our water.  We have too much of it to to defend it all.  And Alberta would join them anyways so no need to invade there.


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## Kirkhill (5 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Unless we had more numbers and a sugar daddy country supplying us with kit then no.  Plus a mega maga inspired could just come and take our water.  We have too much of it to to defend it all.  And Alberta would join them anyways so no need to invade there.



I don't know about that.  All Alberta really wants is its own version of the Danzig Corridor - free passage to Prince Rupert.  The real question is what do we have to offer the locals in BC to make that happen?  And how many of them would willingly separate from Victoria?

Edit:  How many of them recognize Victoria?


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## Skysix (5 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Unless we had more numbers and a sugar daddy country supplying us with kit then no.  Plus a mega maga inspired could just come and take our water.  We have too much of it to to defend it all.  And Alberta would join them anyways so no need to invade there.


So Alberta = Donbass, the GTA = Crimea, the lower mainland = Transnistria? 😜


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## Remius (5 May 2022)

Skysix said:


> So Alberta = Donbass, the GTA = Crimea, the lower mainland = Transnistria? 😜


Alberta= Belarus.


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## Kirkhill (5 May 2022)

Skysix said:


> So Alberta = Donbass, the GTA = Crimea, the lower mainland = Transnistria? 😜


Nah

Alberta = Donbas.  Prince Rupert = the Crimea.  The lower mainland = Moscow.


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## Skysix (5 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Alberta= Belarus.


Well the UCP would like to be even if they don't have the skills to run a Sovereign nation.


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## Kirkhill (5 May 2022)

Skysix said:


> Well the UCP would like to be even if they don't have the skills to run a Sovereign nation.



Just when I was starting to like you....


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## Underway (5 May 2022)

Skysix said:


> Devils Advocate time: could or would Canada do as well/anything if a MegaMaga inspired military invasion to sieze oilfields or water resources occurred? A similar scenario existed for Ukraine/Russia from 1991 to 2014.


So the US invades then.  That's what you are asking. 

The Canadian strategic defense problem is that we are unattackable (from outside NA) and undefendable (from the US).  I think you already know the answer.


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## KevinB (5 May 2022)

Underway said:


> So the US invades then.  That's what you are asking.
> 
> The Canadian strategic defense problem is that we are unattackable (from outside NA) and undefendable (from the US).  I think you already know the answer.


We don't need anymore Democrats thank you.


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## Kirkhill (5 May 2022)

Underway said:


> So the US invades then.  That's what you are asking.
> 
> The Canadian strategic defense problem is that we are unattackable (from outside NA) and undefendable (from the US).  I think you already know the answer.



We are unattackable from outside NA.  We are undefendable from the US.

Are we unattackable from within Canada?   Everybody loves a good Civil War every century or so.


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## Underway (5 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> We don't need anymore Democrats thank you.


The plan is working...


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## Haggis (5 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> We are waiting till Trudeau takes all your guns


So, soon, then.


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## Remius (5 May 2022)

Realistically a scenario like that would have US/Can degrade over at least a decade if not more and it wouldn’t be some sort of surprise attack. Having a hostile nation to our south would prompt preparation and increase in numbers and equipment.  Still wouldn’t be enough to stop anything but again how the world would react and who and public support in the US would be huge factors.  A lot of states would not be happy with a Maga inspired invasion. 

If I were Canada I would scatter the CAF into small insurgent groups, train locals and conduct small ops across the borders where we look and sound like them.  

The US could easily control major Urban centres but maybe not the countryside so much. I would expect Canada to fracture into independent republics in reaction to it.  

Fantasy though.


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## Good2Golf (6 May 2022)

Any option other than “take it quickly like a bunch of whiny pontificators,” is unrealistic.


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## Jarnhamar (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> If I were Canada I would scatter the CAF into small insurgent groups, train locals and conduct small ops across the borders where we look and sound like them.





Remius said:


> Fantasy though.




Fantasy? More like heresy 
We would just set up light infantry battalions in defensive positions across open fields (sans anti-armor) and when the US military stops dead against our stalwart bulwark we would drive LAVs up to their positions, dismount 50 meters away, and take them prisoner.


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## Halifax Tar (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> would expect Canada to fracture into independent republics in reaction to it.
> 
> Fantasy though.



Even without invasion I think this is a very real possibility.  Just viewing the social divides widen and as they become more entrenched, and with know uniting politician in view, I truly worry for our future.


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## dimsum (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Realistically a scenario like that would have US/Can degrade over at least a decade if not more and it wouldn’t be some sort of surprise attack. Having a hostile nation to our south would prompt preparation and increase in numbers and equipment.  Still wouldn’t be enough to stop anything but again how the world would react and who and public support in the US would be huge factors.  A lot of states would not be happy with a Maga inspired invasion.
> 
> If I were Canada I would scatter the CAF into small insurgent groups, train locals and conduct small ops across the borders where we look and sound like them.
> 
> ...


I'll sit and wait for General Winter to lend a hand...


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## YZT580 (6 May 2022)

books already been written.  Featured an airborne invasion of Toronto via C141s (I think) from Niagara straight in on 32.  Disaster.  Came out in the early 70s and that is all I can remember


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## FSTO (6 May 2022)

Richard Rohmer's Ultimatum 
Read it as a kid. America needed our oil. Now that I remember it, maybe Vlad should have gave it a read. Same scenario as his stroll to Kiev.

 



			https://www.amazon.ca/Ultimatum-Richard-Rohmer/dp/0770103642


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## Underway (6 May 2022)

There can be no coordinated defense as we (the Canadian population not just defense assets) are penny-pocketed around the country in widely separated urban outposts. Our supply lines are singular east-west, not plural (one long highway and one long railroad) and US LOC are plural with multiple lines moving between Canada and the US.

Basically, the places that will be a problem will be Southern Western Ontario and Quebec as they are heavily urban and the most in-depth LOC's that exist.  However, US numbers would just surge in and squat on the population.  Quebec would put up the most fight by far.  Heavily nationalistic, urban army bases, different language etc... are tailor-made to cause a problem through insurgency.

Western cities can just be surrounded, there is nothing around Calgary, Edmonton, Regina and Winnipeg.  Vancouver similarly can be easily boxed in.


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## Remius (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Even without invasion I think this is a very real possibility.  Just viewing the social divides widen and as they become more entrenched, and with know uniting politician in view, I truly worry for our future.


I’ve yet to see anything that comes close to the years of Quebec separation being a real possibility.   I see more political divides than social ones but even then we aren’t anywhere near where the US is right now.  I see a break up in the US before I see one here along those lines. 

That being said we shouldn’t take anything for granted.


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## Halifax Tar (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> I’ve yet to see anything that comes close to the years of Quebec separation being a real possibility.   I see more political divides than social ones but even then we aren’t anywhere near where the US is right now.  I see a break up in the US before I see one here along those lines.
> 
> That being said we shouldn’t take anything for granted.



I think you're severely underestimating the disdain that's a good portion of the country has for central Canada right now.  

Especially in the west.  But it exists ever here in the Maritimes.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have my doubts.


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## Blackadder1916 (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> If I were Canada I would scatter the CAF into small insurgent groups, train locals and *conduct small ops across the borders* where we look and sound like them.
> 
> The US could easily control major Urban centres but maybe not the countryside so much. I would expect Canada to fracture into independent republics in reaction to it.
> 
> Fantasy though.



A major focus of the insurgency resistance should be the disruption in Canada of energy/water distribution (pipelines, power lines, rivers, etc) to the USA and a targeted campaign of IEDs/assassination aimed at US occupation forces as well as political/military and/or business persons who cooperate with US authorities.  Cross border operations should also include similar sabotage targets including dams and municipal water supplies.

слава Канаді


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## Remius (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think you're severely underestimating the disdain that's a good portion of the country has for central Canada right now.
> 
> Especially in the west.  But it exists ever here in the Maritimes.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong, but I have my doubts.


Did that disdain exist during the Harper years or during the Trudeau years?

Have we reached a point where western and east coast provinces are electing separatist governments and having referendums?


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## Underway (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think you're severely underestimating the disdain that's a good portion of the country has for central Canada right now.
> 
> Especially in the west.  But it exists ever here in the Maritimes.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong, but I have my doubts.


You're overestimating it.  It's a family.  I can pick on my brother and criticize all his decisions/politics, but when someone else does it, I lose all sense of reason and proportional response.  You don't **** with the family.


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## Halifax Tar (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Did that disdain exist during the Harper years or during the Trudeau years?
> 
> Have we reached a point where western and east coast provinces are electing separatist governments and having referendums?



With the way the right is fracturing and the growth of the extreme I'm not sure we can make a fair comparison to that time.  Harper was very much a center-right PM.  

I see big divisions and I don't see them as reaction to one government over another.  It's regional.  

To me it's not a reaction to JT and Liberal governments so much as a pivot by some towards populism and an acceptance of that life style.  Right word ?  



Underway said:


> You're overestimating it.  It's a family.  I can pick on my brother and criticize all his decisions/politics, but when someone else does it, I lose all sense of reason and proportional response.  You don't **** with the family.



Its dangerous to speak in definitives.  The future is a time you don't know or understand.


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## The Bread Guy (6 May 2022)

Underway said:


> ... It's a family.  I can pick on my brother and criticize all his decisions/politics, but when someone else does it, I lose all sense of reason and proportional response.  You don't **** with the family.


I'm with you, but we all know how far some family feuds can go, too  #HatfieldsMcCoys


Halifax Tar said:


> ... To me it's not a reaction to JT and Liberal governments so much as a pivot by some towards populism and an acceptance of that life style.  Right word ? ...


Some of JT's work surely fuels the fire, but there is more of a "we're not going to take it anymore" vibe out there, from one side more than another, but not zero on the other side, either.


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## Halifax Tar (6 May 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I'm with you, but we all know how far some family feuds can go, too  #HatfieldsMcCoys
> 
> Some of JT's work surely fuels the fire, but there is more of a "we're not going to take it anymore" vibe out there, from one side more than another, but not zero on the other side, either.



I def feel the "done with Canada" sentiment coming from the right in the vast majority of the time. 

I haven't heard that from the left.  Although I sit to be corrected.


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## Remius (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> With the way the right is fracturing and the growth of the extreme I'm not sure we can make a fair comparison to that time.  Harper was very much a center-right PM.
> 
> I see big divisions and I don't see them as reaction to one government over another.  It's regional.
> 
> ...


The reason I ask is how much of the disdain is due to cults of personality.   Will the disdain exist once Trudeau is gone or will it persist. Will the disdain end when the ends it’s losing streak?

My point isn’t that there is not discontent.  But I have yet to see it at the same level as when Quebec was a hair from leaving confederation.


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## Czech_pivo (6 May 2022)

KevinB said:


> We don't need anymore Democrats thank you.


Its not the Democrats that you need to worry about,  its all the NDP's/Greens uniting with like-minded souls in Washington/Oregon/California...


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## Halifax Tar (6 May 2022)

Remius said:


> The reason I ask is how much of the disdain is due to cults of personality.   Will the disdain exist once Trudeau is gone or will it persist. Will the disdain end when the ends it’s losing streak?
> 
> My point isn’t that there is not discontent.  But I have yet to see it at the same level as when Quebec was a hair from leaving confederation.



I think you will see that that disdain will continue until certain segments of the country feel they are properly represented and appreciated.  

JT is a symptom not the cause.


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## The Bread Guy (6 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I def feel the "done with Canada" sentiment coming from the right in the vast majority of the time.
> 
> I haven't heard that from the left.  Although I sit to be corrected.


I should have been clearer - some of the left I deal with say "we're done with populism."  Not as high a volume, to be sure, but again, +0.


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## lenaitch (6 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Fantasy? More like heresy
> We would just set up light infantry battalions in defensive positions across open fields (sans anti-armor) and when the US military stops dead against our stalwart bulwark we would drive LAVs up to their positions, dismount 50 meters away, and take them prisoner.



_"It's not the size of the army; it's the fury of its onslaught."_

Men With Brooms​


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## daftandbarmy (9 May 2022)

Simple, we declare war first.

Based on this movie, it looks like we already have the right kit


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## Underway (9 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> With the way the right is fracturing and the growth of the extreme I'm not sure we can make a fair comparison to that time.  Harper was very much a center-right PM.
> 
> I see big divisions and I don't see them as reaction to one government over another.  It's regional.
> 
> ...


Do you mean like the fracture into the PQ,  Reform, out of the PC's?  The right "fracturing" this time isn't along geographic lines it's along political-social lines (if it fractures at all, I think of more its shedding voters/members depending on which way they swing).

The regional issues in Canada are a rounding error compared to what they were in the 90's.


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## Halifax Tar (9 May 2022)

Underway said:


> Do you mean like the fracture into the PQ,  Reform, out of the PC's?  The right "fracturing" this time isn't along geographic lines it's along political-social lines (if it fractures at all, I think of more its shedding voters/members depending on which way they swing).
> 
> The regional issues in Canada are a rounding error compared to what they were in the 90's.



Okie dokie pokie.


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## Spencer100 (9 May 2022)

All that is need is the US invasion force to do is "All Canadian Gov cheques will be honored and replaced with US checks ASAP."  

The money keeps rolling.  Most people wouldn't care if it had an Eagle on it or not.

Done!  

All public sector employees retirement and current salaries will be paid be the US treasury.  And that the PS unions would be protected.

With this the Clerk of the Privy Council would turn to the PM and tell him his services are no longer required. 

Invasion complete and finished. 

I do know the it would be the GG who would "fire" the PM but lets be real....The civil service is In charge.


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## Colin Parkinson (9 May 2022)

The international political system would have to be a mess to allow the US to get away with this, in which case Canada would be in a mess as well beforehand. Not to mention internal opposition within the US to this. At best a decade long occupation to "stabilize" the country and then a gradual pullout.


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## Halifax Tar (9 May 2022)

Maybe I underestimate my fellow countrymen but I have a hard time imagining Johnny or Judy Double Double getting to upset enough to form a resistance.  

Keep the heat, water and lights on... Feed them and these complacent beggers will let you away with anything.

I think we'd have large swaths of Canadians welcoming the Yanks.  Quisling I think is the term.


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## Colin Parkinson (9 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Maybe I underestimate my fellow countrymen but I have a hard time imagining Johnny or Judy Double Double getting to upset enough to form a resistance.
> 
> Keep the heat, water and lights on... Feed them and these complacent beggers will let you away with anything.
> 
> I think we'd have large swaths of Canadians welcoming the Yanks.  Quisling I think is the term.


Well it's not like Ottawa inspires loyalty


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## Spencer100 (9 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The international political system would have to be a mess to allow the US to get away with this, in which case Canada would be in a mess as well beforehand. Not to mention internal opposition within the US to this. At best a decade long occupation to "stabilize" the country and then a gradual pullout.


The international political system would not bat an eye.  They would just say well Canada is just a part of the US system anyways this just makes it formal.


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## Spencer100 (9 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Well it's not like Ottawa inspires loyalty


The cheques just need to keep rolling.

Plus are the millions of new Canadians here to be "Canadian" or just because they couldn't get the US first?


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