# Mechanical engineering degree, no prior military experience.



## Fauxjargon (23 Sep 2011)

Hi -

I'm going to graduate from an accredited Canadian university in 8 months with an engineering degree (mechanical).  Although I have thought about the CF before, I have never been involved in the reserves/cadets/ect....  As I understand it a bachelors degree gives you the option of joining as an officer, however, I can't help but think that it's unreasonable for someone in my position (middle of my graduating class grades-wise, plenty of minimum wage work experience, some extracurricular activities) to be given such a position.  I may be wrong and of course I realize that if I am hired then of course they will train me, but at the same time I don't see why I deserve a position like that.

I am not adverse to the idea of joining the CF at a lower rank, but at the same time, I don't want to get stuck.  Ultimately I feel that if I'm going to work a mediocre job, I'd rather it be a civilian job for a variety of reasons.

So, how does going straight from university as a civilian to the CF work?

How does the CF look at applicants like me?  My GPA is close to the median for my group of students, I'll be able to pass my physical testing and I assume my medical, so I suppose that means I have a shot?


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## Michael OLeary (23 Sep 2011)

The CF, unlike many civilian institutions, will teach you all the relevant institutional (i.e., military) stuff you need to do your job before we leave you alone to do it. Many (if not most) CF members, both officers and non-commissioned members, had no military experience when they joined. Not having past military experience (or Cadet experience) is not a factor you should be worried about.


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## cupper (23 Sep 2011)

Fauxjargon said:
			
		

> Ultimately I feel that if I'm going to work a mediocre job, I'd rather it be a civilian job for a variety of reasons.



Best advice I can give you starting out is this: "Your military career will be pretty much what you make of it." 

Do not assume that being in a mediocre civilian job is better than a mediocre military job. At least you have options available in the CF if you find yourself "stuck". You can apply for courses to enhance your career, apply for postings which will make life more interesting, or remuster to another trade group or environment.

But I haven't heard too many people complaining of mediocrity in their CF career, either as an office or an NCM. However, as an Engineer in the civilian world, I've heard too many people bitch about being stuck in a dead end job, and couldn't bring themselves to quit because they had commitments to family, finances, etc.


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## Pusser (26 Sep 2011)

Fauxjargon said:
			
		

> I don't see why I deserve a position like that.



Buck up kid and get some confidence in yourself!  Your situation is not unusual.  There are many like you, past, present and future.  Your academic standing is not that big of a deal (remember that the guy who places last at medical school is still a doctor).  And don't worry, we're not going to give you any position you haven't earned.

Now, get thee to a recruiting centre and tell them why the CF needs you!


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## gcclarke (26 Sep 2011)

Seconded. Never let yourself convince you that you're not worthy for something, especially if you meet the listed requirements. If you want it, apply, and let those in the know determine i make the evaluation. And it's not like you'll be immediately thrust into a position where you'll be in over your head. You'll get literally years of training, as your responsibilities and expectations gradually grow.


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## brihard (26 Sep 2011)

You already exhibit a couple of admirable qualities- not having your head up your ass and not exuding arrogance. Those are both desirable.

If, in addition to that you want to serve Canada, are willing to work your ass off when the situation merits it, willing to place yourself in harm's way and willing to accept moral and legal responsibility for putting others in same (with proper leadership and after proper training, of course), there's no reason you can't be an asset to Canada and the C.F. as an engineering officer.

You'll always wonder what could have been if you don't- my advice is give 'er!


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## Fauxjargon (30 Sep 2011)

Thanks for the replies!

I suppose I should clarify that for me, at this point, talking to a recruiter in person is a given - I think though, I have a few questions left to ask here before I go do that.

The trade that makes the most sense to me is electrical and mechanical engineering officer or engineering officer.  Signals officer would also be interesting even though I won't have a preferred degree.  However, if I put three officer positions on my application I might get rejected for all of them.  Is there alternate positions (assuming an ultimate goal of engineering officer / EME officer) which I should apply for with the eventual goal of promotion?

And when I say "why should the CF let me be an officer" I am not so much doubting my capacity to do it as asking a more serious question:  In the absence of any really impressive achievements in my life (see summary of my life at the bottom of this post), how do I convince the CF why they would want me for a role other than uniform heater?

- Graduated high school
- Some extracurricular activities in high school
- 4 minimum wage jobs (Fast food, Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Pet Store)
- No extracurricular activities (aside from work) in university
- Graduated (pending) with mechanical engineering degree with grades which are marginally below the median (my GPA is <0.2 below the median, basically I'm in between C+ and B- where the median at my school is a B- typically)

Those 5 things sum up my accomplishments in life thus far fairly completely.  Again, although I must re-iterate that regardless of what people on the internet say, I'm going to tapply anyway, why should the CF give me a job?


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## ballz (30 Sep 2011)

If you are interested in those 3 trades, put those 3 trades down. Don't put down "alternate" positions to improve your chances of acceptance (and to be honest... I'm not sure there are any better trades than those 3 to improve your chances of acceptance... maybe NCS Engineer O, but I'm not a recruiter).

I am pretty sure Engineer O's are in high demand at the moment...

As for "why should the CF give you a job," the selection board will be the ones deciding that. You will also be doing an aptitude test and an interview as part of the application, so it's not just your "on paper" resume that's going to matter. Do you or have you played any sports?


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## Fauxjargon (30 Sep 2011)

Unfortunately I've never been involved in organized sports.


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## cn (30 Sep 2011)

Best advice I got back when I was going through the process that I can pass to you is to try anything and everything you can to set yourself apart from other candidates.  The process can be very competitive in terms of number of applicants vs. number of open spots so anything you can add to that list will only help.  

And it's never to late to join teams, clubs, etc. so that you will have those items to list on your resume.


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## ballz (30 Sep 2011)

What are your extracurricular activities that you mentioned then?

I would suggest, between now and your potential enrolment, that you find a sport that you like, not only to strengthen your application but also your physical fitness (how is that by the way?), which you should probably start working on now, especially considering you might become an Engineering Officer.

Sports can help you prove a lot on paper... not only experience working as a team member, but also provides a lot of leadership opportunities. It also let's you put concrete credentials (awards, etc.) that translate well on paper. You can see where I am going, the parallels between the CF and team sports are nearly unlimited. I am pretty sure without my background in sports I would not have been selected to ROTP. In fact, I had a pretty average-at-best application without the sports achievements.


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## Fauxjargon (30 Sep 2011)

The extracurricular activities I was talking about was a robotics team.  My physical fitness is close to what would be necessary to pass the initial physical test.  I can do 5 km in under 30 mins, I can do more than enough sit-ups, and around 15 pushups to military standards ( based on the material on the CF website).  I have no idea about grip strength, so aside from running and pushups like normal (now that I am doing them for a reason and not on a very irregular basis like before), grip strength is my number one concern fitness wise.  Pull-ups are definitely a weak area for me too.  I'll see what I can do for resume enhancement between now and graduation.  Part of what made the idea that I should consider the CF jump into my head was the fact that I'm finally getting into shape - I'm barely under the overweight line on the BMI charts now - I was barely over the obese line 18 months ago.  I should mention that I dont plan to try and barely meet standards, botc will be difficult enough without being in bad shape.


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## Pusser (30 Sep 2011)

Unless you want to jump out of functional aircraft, pull-ups are not an issue.  To improve grip strength, you can use a tricep pulldown type exercise.


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## ballz (30 Sep 2011)

Fauxjargon said:
			
		

> The extracurricular activities I was talking about was a robotics team.  My physical fitness is close to what would be necessary to pass the initial physical test.  I can do 5 km in under 30 mins, I can do more than enough sit-ups, and around 15 pushups to military standards ( based on the material on the CF website).  I have no idea about grip strength, so aside from running and pushups like normal (now that I am doing them for a reason and not on a very irregular basis like before), grip strength is my number one concern fitness wise.  Pull-ups are definitely a weak area for me too.  I'll see what I can do for resume enhancement between now and graduation.  Part of what made the idea that I should consider the CF jump into my head was the fact that I'm finally getting into shape - I'm barely under the overweight line on the BMI charts now - I was barely over the obese line 18 months ago.  I should mention that I dont plan to try and barely meet standards, botc will be difficult enough without being in bad shape.



Well good on you for making those improvements and as long as you keep it up you'll be fine. I would make mention during your interview and on your application of where you've come from in the last 18 months.

If you become an Eng O you will have some tough training ahead of you and you will probably want to be above the CF minimum standards. Grip-strength isn't very often an issue especially if you can do above the minimum for push-ups. I'll say that pull-ups and chin-ups are important because 

1. pull-ups will help you improve your push-ups 
2. chin-ups will help your grip strength and 
3. the army (and all three of the trades you've mentioned are army) loves making you do both during your training in Gagetown

Plus it's just good to focus on overall conditioning and not specifically for the test results.

My 2 cents anyway


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## Fauxjargon (30 Sep 2011)

So is it a good idea to delay applying until I can actually say I have participated in extracurricular activites?  Now that I have a reason to work out I expect to lose weight and get in shape much faster than I have been over the past 18 month.

Sports may not be doable but I will be able to get going with some extracurricular activites - the best I can do with that is join the school's mini baja racer team and/or the ROV team.  

If I apply, how likely is it that I get to write the aptitude test?


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## FlyingDutchman (1 Oct 2011)

Delaying can be a two sided sword, sure it gives you more time to get ready, but it is still a six month process for the application to go through. Consider the pros and cons of each.


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## cn (1 Oct 2011)

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> Delaying can be a two sided sword, sure it gives you more time to get ready, but it is still a six month process for the application to go through. Consider the pros and cons of each.



Read around some of the other topics, some people's process may be shorter than six months or considerably longer.  There are examples of both extremes in this very section of the forum.


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## FlyingDutchman (2 Oct 2011)

My apologies, I was going by the average that my recuiter told me.


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## aesop081 (2 Oct 2011)

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> my recuiter told me.



My recruiter told me I would be working with power tools and heavy equipment......


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## cupper (2 Oct 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> My recruiter told me I would be working with power tools and heavy equipment......



And he was right. Airplanes are heavy, powerful fighting tools.  ;D


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## jeffb (2 Oct 2011)

It's only October so you've got 10 months before you are going to be done school right? Any expectations you might have about lining up showing up at the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School 1 week after convocation should go right out the window. Others have alluded to it but take a look around this forum if you don't believe me. Get a plan for something else you can do while your application is processed. In that time you can get a lot done physically and from an extra curricular standpoint. How about volunteering at a local food bank or at an organization that can give you some leadership experience such as a student association/ club at school. I know at my school there was a peer tutoring program. Maybe you could get involved in that? 

Ideally, I'd be looking for additional experience that would not only help pad my application but would also help me develop professionally. Anything that gets you working with people, getting more fit physically or puts you in a position where you have to make decisions would be helpful.


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