# Comd commendation probs??



## SHELLDRAKE!! (24 Nov 2004)

Anyone noticing these awards going out like hotcakes for anything and everything??


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Nov 2004)

You mean like the guy that got one on Roto 0 for setting up a BBQ? :

And that's not a joke. It happened.


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## AmmoTech90 (24 Nov 2004)

Actually during our CLS brief yesterday the CLS talked about this.  He presented a CLS commendation to a member who assisted in a car accident.  Words to the effect of, "We don't give enough of these type of thing out.", and "As soon as someone is recommended for this sort of thing the system swings into action to stop it."  I agree with him, there is nothing wrong with celebrating individual achievement.  When was the last time you heard of someone getting to cruise on HMCS Oriole (if its even still around).
The only commendation anyone will know about if you dont tell them is the Comd in Chief's, the rest are a plaque or certificiate.  No a big deal, but lets people know their chain of command is letting higher know they are good soldiers.


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## DjC (24 Nov 2004)

The way I see it, there is little reason for people to get those awards and commendations. I always assumed they are pretty much handed out druing war times, which is the only time that quite possibly should entitle soldiers for such a commenoration. Sure there are wars and conflicts going on around the world, but honestly, I hardly hear of anyone receiving awards, especially from the CF, when the majority of the time there is little war going on.


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## AmmoTech90 (24 Nov 2004)

So I guess SAR Techs shouldn't be awarded commendations/bravery medals when they do something extraordinary?   Or the guy that jumps into a river in winter to save someone.   Or the Platoon that raises thousands of dollars for a charity.   You should only be rewarded for doing something great when someone is shooting at you and all the achievements that happen in garrison should be ignored?   There are decorations that are specifically designed to be awarded for actions in the face of the enemy.   Read the criteria for awards and commendations before you start dicating when they should be presented.


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## Ex-Dragoon (24 Nov 2004)

well said AT90.


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## combat_medic (24 Nov 2004)

Not to mention that the CF members are seriously underdecorated in comparison to, say the US for example. If a soldier pulls someone from a burning car or raise enough money to pay for some kid's medical expenses, thus saving his life, why shouldn't they be recognized. A guy I know got a Commendation for being on the team that won Gold on the Cambrian Patrol; the first in Canada's history of participation. Shouldn't he be given a pat on the back for that? With an army that is continuously increasing it's expectations of its personnel, both at home and abroad, shoudln't our recognition of their outstanding achievements be increasing with it?


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## Infanteer (24 Nov 2004)

The commendations are a nice alternative to giving guys Bronze Stars or Achievement medals (the US).


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## beach_bum (24 Nov 2004)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> When was the last time you heard of someone getting to cruise on HMCS Oriole (if its even still around).



It is still around.  One of the recruiting centres went on it a couple of years ago for adventure training.


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## Lance Wiebe (24 Nov 2004)

Receiving the CDS commendation, or the CLS commendation, is darn difficult.  There has to be some hard work done by a lot of people to get someone recognized, believe me.  I went through the hoops trying to get one given out to one of my guys.

I know that it's somewhat easier getting a commanders commendation, or an area commanders commendation for that matter, but the soldiers that receive any of these commendations certainly deserve it!  It's a great way to identify soldiers who go way out of there way to bring public attention to the military (in a good way, I mean), or do outstanding work that raises the bar for their peers.

Besides, it comes with a real nice write-up, and looks good on the "I loved my time in the service" wall where we hang all the junk after we retire.............


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (24 Nov 2004)

Question is, are these going to end up going the way of the warrior badge???


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## Bert (24 Nov 2004)

Commanders' commendations should be handed out as a good pat on the back and like
hotcakes if need be.   Its good for morale and recognizes a specific commendable instance 
of a job well done.    The people and units that received it on my base certainly deserve
it and more.


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## George Wallace (24 Nov 2004)

Interesting thread.  Where should the lines be drawn as to whom or how these awards are presented?  I have seen members of my Regiment get a nice certificate for actions in saving the life of accident victims, and then hear of a female Officer, formerly of my regiment, getting awarded a Medal for talking down a suicide attempt.  I now question how these are awards are graded.  Is there a "token" award given to the men and a "medal" given to officers?  Have we reinvented the "Class System of the 1800's"?  What are the criteria for these awards?  Why would an act of bravery or heroism only rate a certificate equal to a "guy that set up a BBQ"?  I always looked on the Warrior Medals as being to "Boy Scoutish" so you can see where I am coming from....... 8)

GW


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## Acorn (24 Nov 2004)

Medals are subject to a very strict review by the Honours and Awards Committee. I think the three commendations that entitle one to a decoration (CDS, DCDS and VCDS commendations) are also subject to review by the Committee.

Other Commendations have a different review process.

Part of it is how the recommendation was made, and the text of the citation. I'm not absolutely sure of the process. I know of two Commendation recommendations, a CDS and DCDS, that came to nothing (one was for me, and I shouldn't have known, but I found out by accident).

Acorn


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## AmmoTech90 (25 Nov 2004)

I doubt the commendations will ever become like the Warrior badge.  Reviewing the CF Pers Newletter for 2004 there have been 51 CDS Commendations awarded in 2004, some of the events these relate to date back at least to 2000.  I'm not sure how many each command award each year but I doubt its more than 100, probably between 50 and 100 I would guess.  So your looking at between 200 and 300 individual commendations awarded each year that warrent being worn on DEU.  Remember that these can be awarded to civilian members of DND as well as foreign military.  I don't think 300 out of 80,000 is a lot.  Around .3% of the total strength being honoured.  Now if you throw in the MSMs and MMM/OMM/CMMs you get up to half a percent.
Personally I think that a whole lot more of the military are deserving of recognition each year than 1 in 200.

Caveat I - Its very late and if my numbers are way out of whack please feel to correct me.  No DIN access at home so I couldn't look at CANFORGENS for exact numbers.
Caveat II - I didn't mention the bravery medals because they seem to be very rarely awarded and see caveat I.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (25 Nov 2004)

I think we can all agree the intentions were in the right place and some form of recognition is definitly deserved however my issue is when two people are awarded the same commendation, one person for saving a life in an auto accident, and another for organizing a sports day for a regiment.IMHO it cheapens the award and brings up the same arguments as the 30 day medal recognitions some tours have taken.


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## AmmoTech90 (25 Nov 2004)

Its a good point Shelldrake, but we could end up with a multitude of different awards if we implemented ones for different types of acts rather than different magnitudes of acts.  As far as the magnitude things go, yes you should have to perform a significantly more notable act to receive a CDS' Commendation than a Command Commendation but there are two things that will prevent it from happening everytime-

1. Human nature- the person who finally signs off on the award is human and each incumbent in that position will have a slightly different criteria on how they want to award it.  One CLS may award a commendation for a BBQ, the next may not, or they may change it to a area/formation commendation.  They may be having a good day or a bad day (hopefully that doesn't enter too often).  They may have personally witnessed the time and effort that went in to event and be biased that way.

2. Writing ability- If the people recommending and forwarding the award can put down in writing well the justification then it wiill probably go forward.  Look at the PER system, good writing on average performance can trump average writing on good performance.

All told these are human awards and the granting of them is a subjective matter.  If someone does something outstanding and their superiors notice it, they will get what their chain of commands thinks they deserve, not what the member thinks they deserve.


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## Mortar guy (25 Nov 2004)

In my personal experience (2 years at Rideau Hall) I have planned/seen maybe 4 OMM ceremonies and I have to say that the criteria for the OMM seem a little confusing to me. A disproportionate number of recipients are from the support trades, a fact which my boss (a Log 4-ringer) pointed out to me. I was told this was because those trades tend to make a concerted effort to get their people written up for OMM/MMM whereas (at least in my experience) the Combat Arms is reluctant to nominate someone unless they bring about world peace! It really depends on how the nomination is written up. Please note that Rideau Hall does not choose who gets the OMM, we just planned/hosted the ceremony.

[rant]Nonetheless, I have seen a number of recipients get the OMM which have caused me to wonder. For example, a reservist getting the MMM and his citation basically said: "...for successfully balancing his military and civilian careers..." WTF!? Or another one "...for being XX CBGs first female RSM..." OK, did they do a good job? Or are they getting medals for not being NES and for having ovaries respectively? I am sure they are good soldiers but I can think of a few people who deserve medals for doing a whole lot more who don't get nominated for whatever reason.[/rant]

Of course, I do not mean to slander all OMM recipients as I have seen a large number of extremely deserving recipients (all from my Regiment.... joke..... kinda). But I think that raising the standards for that medal would be a good thing.

MG


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## AmmoTech90 (25 Nov 2004)

Hmmm.  The point about more support trades getting awards than combat arms makes me think back to conversation I had at the mess last week.

The other member was expressing dissatisfaction with the correspondance and residentail part of the ILQ.  There was too much writing and not enough military skills.  I have seen this point carried on down to the lowest levels of combat arms to the point where in some units Cpls are not required to fill out their own leave passes, the Coy Clk does it and the member just signs.  They felt it did not contribute any skills they needed to perform their job.  Perhaps if writing skills were encouraged more then there might be less reluctance to submit write ups for the awards.  Being able to ensure your subordinates receive recognition for their accomplishments is covered by at least one of the Principles of Leadership so writing is a skill needed to perform their job.

Now this is in no way intended to be a slag against combat arms pers.  The fact that the overwhelming number of posters who make coherent, sensible posts on this forum are combat arms proves that this may be more of a cultural/institutional problem than the individual level of education.


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## Long in the tooth (25 Nov 2004)

As some have already mentioned, receiving an award often depends on "Who's watching" and the skill of the writer making the submission.  It's nice to pretend that there are standards, but objectivity is often hard to find.  Two people can take the exact same facts and embellish or emphasize them to their own ends.  Don't get me started about PERs!

Whatever system we employ to recognize our people has to be better than the hit and miss method for awarding Jubilee and 125 medals etc.  I do feel that someone who works concientiously for years should be just as eligible as someone who makes a snap decision and saves a life.  If they deserve a bravery medal, then give them one.


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## RCA (25 Nov 2004)

Commendations are for mbrs who perform acts that reflect the good of the service (ie saving a life, organizing food drives etc). The higher the commendation, the greater the good that is reflected.

 Bravery medals on the other hand involve some form of personal sacrifice, so the example of the suicide might have reflected that the recipient put herself in some form of danger.

However, it does come down to how well it is written up. 

 All criteria can be found in A-AD-200-000/AG-000 -- Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces (if you are on the DIN, you can download this and others - http://hr.dwan.dnd.ca/dhh/publications/engraph/cfps_e.asp?cat=6


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