# No pilot for me?



## FSGT Lampkin (5 May 2005)

So i got accepted for ROTP at RMC campus....however, not for either of my 1st or 2nd choices (pilot and air nav...i guess they are kinad one in the the same selection wise).....i did get CELE(air) but am still trying to figure out if there is any way of getting pilot at some point.....

1) a brother of a friend of mine got in for ATC a couple years ago but then got pilot because many ppl failed CFACS....is this common?
2) has this happened to anyone in the past and has is it advisable to do the 4 years rmc...4 years CELE and then reapply?
3)or.....is it better to go civy U and try as DEO...


i pasted all my eyes/medical etc and from what i understand we are short on pilots  so its kinda puzzling....maybe they dont want a back log

anyways, some info would be great, thanks.


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## Big Foot (5 May 2005)

Lampkin, suck it up and consider yourself lucky to have been selected to come here. Pilot is not the be all and end all. There are many other trades that are worth while. If you want to come to RMC, then come here. If you want, you can apply for a VOR. I didn't get my first choice, in fact I know many people who got offered MOCs that they didn't even select in their list of choices. Either deal with it and soldier on or give your spot to someone else. The me first attitude where you only want one specific trade will get you nowhere. Sure we all have dreams, but if you don't attain your dream, don't give up. RMC is what you make of it, regardless of your trade. CELE is a darn good trade, but if you don't want it, don't take it. Besides, theres no guarantee you would get pilot even if you did go DEO. Lifes a *****, suck it up and soldier on.


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## FSGT Lampkin (5 May 2005)

no man i do consider myself really lucky to get selected...apparently theres a huge waiting list below my name. I will totally accept cele as its something im really interested in. BUT, i was mislead into believing that switching in and out of carreer is fairly simple and that i could somehow reapply for aircrew blah blah blah...apparently not so


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## Inch (5 May 2005)

Did you go to ACS and did you pass? 

Big Foot, I'm going to disagree with the "suck it up and soldier on" theory. Going to RMC is not worth 9 years of your life if you end up doing a job you don't want to do. I wouldn't call his attitude a "me first" attitude, you've got to look out for #1 because no one else is going to, if he wants pilot, I say go for it. When I applied, I only put pilot down, nothing else. I didn't want to commit myself to 9 years in a trade that I didn't want to do. Sure I may have liked a new trade, but when I set out to join the CF I didn't want anything but pilot and there's nothing wrong with that IMHO.


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## FSGT Lampkin (5 May 2005)

thanks alot for your input Inch..... the initial recruiter that i met said to me "if you want pilot, dont put anything else....cause alot of the time even if you are going to get pilot, they'll give you say infantry if you had that as one of your choices, cause they need them"....then my recruiting officer advised otherwise....eitherway, im not sure that CELE would really be motivation for me to stick out the tougher life and training at RMC if its not something i had my heart set on....


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## Zoomie (5 May 2005)

FSGT Lampkin,

I responded to your intial post in the recruiting forum, so I won't repeat myself.   I must echo Inch's comments - ensure that the trade you accept is one that you are truly interested in.   Do not rely on getting an MOC change once in - this process is not as common as some might like and it usually requires a fair amount of effort to make it happen.

If you want to attend Charm school and be a CELE(air) - then go for it.   If you have any hesitation and are wary - think about your decision a little longer.


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## shadow (5 May 2005)

I have to agree.  If CELE is not what you want, then be warned you could spend the rest of your oblig servic in a job that you are unhappy with.  You don't want to be there, and your subordinates will not want you there either because they know you don't want to be there  etc.  CELE Officer is a leadership position where you will definately have impressionable troops below you, you will not be doing anyone a favour if you're not happy with your choice.  Think about your decision carefully.
Shadow


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## Sf2 (5 May 2005)

Take Big Foots advice for what it is.....a 1st year who probably didn't get his first choice...now see how bitter he is?   Do not commit to something that don't want to do, as it will only make matters worse.  If CELE does interest you, then go for it, and if pilot still interests you after your CELE training, then go ahead and apply later.


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## Infanteer (6 May 2005)

Isn't RMC mostly made up of disgruntled guys who didn't make Top Gun?


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## TCBF (6 May 2005)

They used to go Armour. ;D


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## Britney Spears (6 May 2005)

but they told me I could get on the Bison - airbus conversion course right after graduation.....


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## Infanteer (6 May 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> but they told me I could get on the Bison - airbus conversion course right after graduation.....



Well, at least there is a second option for working for Air Canada driving a fuel truck or a baggage cart.


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## mover1 (6 May 2005)

Well if you are going that route why waste time with school just jump right into the MSE op trade to drive that fuel truck or if you are lucky the Traffic Tech trade. You can tell lies, misplace baggage and get all the good seats on the Airplane after you load it. If your smart enough they may even make you load master. But then again maybe not because if you were that smart you would have went to university so really its a catch 22.


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## Thirstyson (6 May 2005)

Be advised: CELE education is pure engineering, math and science intensive. Make sure you can handle what you're getting into.


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## Good2Golf (17 May 2005)

I'll have to back up Inch and Zoomie here...there is nothing wrong with wanting to do something so much that you can't see yourself doing anything else...that's exactly where I was 20 years ago.  Did wanting to be a pilot and nothing else make me any less of a CF member than anyone else?  Can't see why that would be...the Capt at the recruiting center told me I could put pilot as my first choice and leave #2 and #3 blank if I really wanted to, but he warned me that it might appear to job focused and not considerate of all the other responsibilities of being an officer, leader, etc...  I said "Roger, understood...I'm well aware of all the responsibilities associated with that, but that's a moot point unless the CF open the pilot MOC (mil occupational code) to NCMs as well...being an officer as a pilot is all that I want to do, thanks."  I told him I didn't want to be an airnav, nor AERE, nor CELE(air), etc...

FSGT L - I'm not particularly sure that "suck it up" is the best answer...you are at a point where you can make a decision..and this is a decision that you might be living with for a very long time.  While you may see it as an honour to have been selected (and this may be partially true), don't forget that the CF is dying for good people and you should not let this pressure you into selecting something that you are not entirely sure you want to do.

If CELE(Air) sounds ok to you and you would like to know more about it to heat up that "warm and fuzzy" about the whole deal, send me a PM and I will put you in touch with a CELE(Air) buddy of mine who could give you some straight shooting stuff on that particular MOC.  

Per your original question, though, yes...you can apply for an OT (occupational transfer) from one MOC to another depending on availability of open positions and the strength of the pilot MOC.  I have several friends who transferred from Nav to Pilot, and Zoomie is working on his second career in the air force.  I have never figured out the whole ROTP/MOC offer deal as it does not always seem to directly relate to current or projected MOC PMLs (preferred manning levels).  I'll ask a friend of of mine who was one of the pilot career managers what the story is on the ROTP-MOC offers. 


Good luck, cheers

Duey


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## FSGT Lampkin (17 May 2005)

Dewey

Thanks alot for your input and to everyone else....I sat down for a few days to clear my head and think about it and figured that for me, RMC was way to big just to throw off because of a bump in the road. Ive been talking to friends/family/people i dont know, who are military types and from what ive gathered, switching to pilot in a few years shouldn't be too big a problem as its an "open MOC" with no real cap on quotas except for region quoatas...as long as the CELE(air) co-ordinators agree that they aren't in dire need of me...and if they are, then ill apply again the next year lol....

i was talking to my uncle in Halifax and he was pretty sure that i got caught in what he called a "quota loop" where despite they are only at say 50-60% (excuse my uneducated guess) of aircrew needed...they can only bring in so many per region...im from south eastern ontario so im up against the millions from toronto and the GTA etc.....if i lived in Nunivat, i probably would have been on ACS in 2 seconds (i passed all my eye tests etc).

So that being sauid....he explained that if i droped RMC and applied again next year, then the same thing would probably happen wiht the quota loop cause theres so many ppl in this area....RMc is my best option because there they aren't looking so much at your marks but also how u do on BOTC, leadership potential and current occupational training...

Peter: "Okay, I'm coming. Form of--Jayna's tampon [goes in purse]. And now we play the waiting game."


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## kincanucks (17 May 2005)

_i was talking to my uncle in Halifax and he was pretty sure that i got caught in what he called a "quota loop" where despite they are only at say 50-60% (excuse my uneducated guess) of aircrew needed...they can only bring in so many per region...im from south eastern ontario so im up against the millions from toronto and the GTA etc.....if i lived in Nunivat, i probably would have been on ACS in 2 seconds (i passed all my eye tests etc)._

Wow awesome misinformation.   Perhaps because your MP and AP wasn't high enough to get selected for your first or second choice is the reason that you ended up being selected for CELE (A).   But if you want to believe that there is some sort of regional quota conspiracy then you go ahead.


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## FSGT Lampkin (18 May 2005)

When i did my aptitude test, they told me right there that i had qualitfied for all my choices and handed me the CFACS blue book....never got a call for going to Trenton so the spots were filled.... MP?


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## kincanucks (18 May 2005)

FSGT Lampkin said:
			
		

> When i did my aptitude test, they told me right there that i had qualitfied for all my choices and handed me the CFACS blue book....never got a call for going to Trenton so the spots were filled.... MP?



MP = military potential
AP = academic potential

All pilot applicants are given the booklet in anticipation of attending CFASC and you should return it.


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## Dumpy (18 May 2005)

Do they make up a roster list of the applicants based on MP and AP before actual RMC selection? If so, ive been talking to ppl who got ACS with like 78%-80% avgs but then got waitlisted for RMC.....Ive done 6 years cadets and have tons and tons of leadership roles and teams/clubs etc.....so im assuming that would contribute to my MP (correct me if im wrong here) and my marks are all mid/high 80s.... So if my AP and MP were too low for pilot, then the only reason i can see others getting in ahead with lower marks etc, is the regional quoata thing....still confused lol.....   

or maybe it was that huge crack pipe i smoked before my medical j/k 

Any ideas Kin?


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## kincanucks (18 May 2005)

Dumpy said:
			
		

> Do they make up a roster list of the applicants based on MP and AP before actual RMC selection? If so, ive been talking to ppl who got ACS with like 78%-80% avgs but then got waitlisted for RMC.....Ive done 6 years cadets and have tons and tons of leadership roles and teams/clubs etc.....so im assuming that would contribute to my MP (correct me if im wrong here) and my marks are all mid/high 80s.... So if my AP and MP were too low for pilot, then the only reason i can see others getting in ahead with lower marks etc, is the regional quoata thing....still confused lol.....
> 
> or maybe it was that huge crack pipe i smoked before my medical j/k
> 
> Any ideas Kin?



To get to CFASC does not require a selection board!   It requires that you complete all the medical processing!   Some people who may have been processed earlier than you made it to CFASC but they haven't been selected for RMC or pilot.   GOING TO CFASC DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL GET PILOT.

There are people on the wait list for pilot with and without CFASC.  No wonder I drink.


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## Sf2 (18 May 2005)

your AP and MP may be high, but there are probably those with higher, and they will get their choices first, and you got what was left over.


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## FSGT Lampkin (18 May 2005)

I passed everything except CFACS (cause i was never called) including CFAT, medical, and the eye tests....so was it just a case of them going down a roster of names and saying "oh bloggins is higher than dumpy, so he gets on" and then bloggins passes and fills the spot.....if thats the case, then does anyone know how many spots were open for pilot? (and how that makes sense if they are so short on aircrew and that the "regional quota" idea was BS?)....sorry to be a real naggin biatch about this lol. I'd much rather have RMC and CELE than nothing at all, but its a kick in the pants being given absolutly no information in regards to what screwed me (if anything) for not being called for ACS.....

thanks


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## Good2Golf (18 May 2005)

FSgt L,

Not that this will come as a consolation, but I had a chat with a past career manager and he noted that MOC offers are (or should be) based on projected PMLs (a.k.a. preferred manning levels) for any MOC.  The next bit is unofficial and taken with a grain of salt, but indications are that in 5 or 6 years time, pilots will likely be in demand (recall Air Canada purchased a chunck of B777 and B787's).  Officially, this clairvoyance may not have translated into a hard projection of MOC candidates at this time.

This is where some poker playing skills may come in to play...fold, hold, raise...?  If you do accept the ROTP offer with CELE(Air) as the MOC, you can imagine that at some point in the future, OT to pilot may be a possibility.  The issue for you, however, is not having gone to CFACS in Trenton...I honestly don't know how this would affect any attempt you might make to OT in the future.  My firends who OT'd to pilot were navs already and thus had an established aircrew factor.  What you have to think would happen would be three things...1) Pilot will be open for OT, 2) CELE(Air) will be overborne or at least let guys go, and 3) you will be accepted to attend ACS.  Don't have any answers for you at this point, but at least that may help your consideration of your situation.

Cheers,
Duey


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## kincanucks (18 May 2005)

FSGT Lampkin said:
			
		

> I passed everything except CFACS (cause i was never called) including CFAT, medical, and the eye tests....so was it just a case of them going down a roster of names and saying "oh bloggins is higher than dumpy, so he gets on" and then bloggins passes and fills the spot.....if thats the case, then does anyone know how many spots were open for pilot? (and how that makes sense if they are so short on aircrew and that the "regional quota" idea was BS?)....sorry to be a real naggin biatch about this lol. I'd much rather have RMC and CELE than nothing at all, but its a kick in the pants being given absolutly no information in regards to what screwed me (if anything) for not being called for ACS.....
> 
> thanks



All competitive pilot applicants were sent to the selection board and some had CFASC and others didn't.  The applicants with the highest MP and AP were selected for Pilot, Arty, Inf, etc whatever their first choice was.  Some pilots that were selected did not have CFASC and now have to complete it as one of the conditions to their offer.  Some applicants with CFASC were selected for their other choices or wait listed. There were 26 Senior and 16 Junior pilot positions available for this ROTP campaign.

Get over the part about not going to CFASC because it made no difference in whether you were selected for pilot or not.


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## FSGT Lampkin (19 May 2005)

i know of a couple Naval officers (not sure the exact MOC) who switched to pilot during their time in RMC.


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## FSGT Lampkin (20 May 2005)

Apparently there were 26 senior and 16 junior spots open for ROTP.....That being the case, im not too bumed that i wasn't put in on my first try....Yeah i know i shouldn't base my decision totally on this but ive heard a variety of cases where ppl were able to switch to pilot once they were in as long as they were able to pass ACS and their transfer was cleared.....they weren't necessarily aircrew before becoming pilot...one was ATC and two others were navy...


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## ROTP Applicant (20 May 2005)

FSGT Lampkin said:
			
		

> Apparently there were 26 senior and 16 junior spots open for ROTP.....That being the case, im not too bumed that i wasn't put in on my first try....Yeah i know i shouldn't base my decision totally on this but ive heard a variety of cases where ppl were able to switch to pilot once they were in as long as they were able to pass ACS and their transfer was cleared.....they weren't necessarily aircrew before becoming pilot...one was ATC and two others were navy...



But are you willing to be a CELE in case you can't do the the OT? Nothing is for sure, so if you can't change your MOC, then you'll be doing a job that you may not really enjoy.


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## FSGT Lampkin (26 May 2005)

OMG! apparently all my bitching and whining on these forums paid off lol...my dad got a call on his cell phone saying ive been transfered to pilot traiing from CELE(air)!!!  gotta phone em tm to get the details on my Selection dates....now comes the hard part lol


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