# Who does what in policing?/Pressures (split fm BC Murder thread)



## brihard (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> BTW, this set-up explains the schizophrenic nature of the RCMP, with the bulk* of the force made up of small town/country police officers and the national group made of high-end, complex criminal investigators and security experts, but nothing in the middle as they are without working knowledge of large town/cities policing and investigations realities.



Almost entirely bang on with the exception of this part. The RCMP are also the provincial police in the contracted provinces. This includes functioning as municipal police for several cities with 100k+ population, and many in the five figures. They also provide district or provincial level teams tackling major crimes, organized crime, drug enforcement, and so on. This is most pronounced in British Columbia, but exists in most of the provinces to a greater or lesser extent.

Because these mid sized to large cities have the greatest number of RCMP members, many of the Mounties you find employed elsewhere in the force have worked in that environment. Talk to the guys guarding embassies in Ottawa or doing national security in Edmonton, and you’ll find members who worked the street or one drug units or prolific offender units in Surrey or Moncton or North Vancouver. This experience is spread throughout the organization.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (28 Jul 2019)

With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".

But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.

Looking at the list of Canadian cities with 100k+ population (2016 census), there are 54 cities in Canada with that level of population. The following have RCMP detachments for police:

Burnaby; Richmond; Langley; Coquitlam; Kelowna; and, Red-Deer.

Not even the home of the RCMP, Regina, employs them as police force. And, obviously, B.C. likes to cheap-out on providing municipal police forces  ;D.

Anyway, it's all really a matter of opinion, and based on my experience with the RCMP (and I was a federal "ad-hoc" prosecutor for Federal crimes in Quebec for a while - so I dealt with them extensively), I stand by my view but agree that we may disagree on such matters.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".
> 
> But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.
> 
> ...



North Vancouver, Surrey, Prince George, every city and town outside the Lower Mainland


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## Humphrey Bogart (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".
> 
> But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.
> 
> ...



You forgot Moncton, NB!  Everyone always forgets about NB!   ;D


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## brihard (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> With my apologies for not being as precise as could be, Brihard, but to me, anything under 250k population is "small town".
> 
> But even assuming 100k as the small town treshold, I would like to see the list of 100k and above towns where the RCMP acts as the police force. It would be a very short list indeed AFAIK.
> 
> ...



All good, certainly no offense taken. There’s really no hard and fast line that defines ‘big city’ policing; really things just scale up in terms of how many people are on and what sort of specialized units and assets are available to support investigations. Also whether supporting assets are full time / dedicated (eg emergency response teams, criminal collision investigators, drugs/gangs, etc) versus being part time capabilities maintained off the sides of desks within patrol units.

Maybe if you gave more concrete examples of what you’re thinking we could bat it around some? The biggest difference I see with major municipalities is they have dedicated patrol/response units who essentially don’t carry investigative files at all. If anything that arguably hampers the investigational altitudes of their members through the first third to half of their career as they might spend seven or eight years on the road going call to call before getting to touch warrants, sources, investigative followup, etc.

That said there are of course things that larger more well resources municipalities can also do very well because they can throw more specialized dedicated teams at a task.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (28 Jul 2019)

Colin: Surrey has it's own municipal police force. As for North Vancouver, its population is 85k - well bellow the 100k mark I set for my post.

Moreover, I note again, that it seems to be B.C. that has a problem cheaping-out on municipal police forces.

While I was being generous by using 100k population as threshold, I was by no means picking random figures. 100k population is the bar set by the Quebec Police act for the compulsory provision of level one policing services, the lowest regulated level that requires round the clock patroling and requires the capability of criminal investigation of thirty-one specified crimes and offences. 

To compare to B.C. (and why I say they cheap-out), Every municipality in Quebec with a population of 50k+ must provide it's own police force -either alone or as a regional police.

I believe the same figures are used by Ontario but haven't look at their Police Act for a while.

Brihard, let me get back to you on that after I get time to spin it in my mind.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (28 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> You forgot Moncton, NB!  Everyone always forgets about NB!   ;D



Again, Humphrey, Moncton has a pop of 85k - bellow my threshold of 100k - thus not on my list.


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## mariomike (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Looking at the list of Canadian cities with 100k+ population (2016 census), there are 54 cities in Canada with that level of population.



I guess this is the reference?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_100_largest_municipalities_in_Canada_by_population



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> You forgot Moncton, NB!



If this is about municipalities across Canada,

As a taxpayer, and former employee, there are some positive aspects, in my opinion, about municipalities operating their own services. 

In fact, used to be, if you wanted a job with the municipality, you had to be a recent graduate of one of its high schools. 

It was felt that gave members a greater personal knowledge of the city’s conditions, and a feeling of greater personal stake in its progress.

You felt a sense of allegiance to the city. Because, that was your home town, and, like it or not, you knew there was no transferring out. Worst they could do was send you to Scarborough.


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## tomahawk6 (28 Jul 2019)

In the US every city and municipality with the exception of Alaska has its own police force in addition to State police posts. Many towns have their own police whose members attend a State police type of training. In fact lately its been a topic of discussion that native villages have hired former felons as police. Then of course are the VPO's, village police officers. I would imagine that the RCMP are stretched thin.

https://dps.alaska.gov/ast/home


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## brihard (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Colin: Surrey has it's own municipal police force.



No it doesn't. Surrey remains the RCMP's largest detachment, with about 800 sworn members or so. Surrey's a half million people officially; anecdotally, damned near every home in the municipality has a rental unit (a great many undeclared), because for most people that's the only way to afford home ownership there. The actual population is probably considerably higher, but undeclared rental units don't get caught by the census. In any case, the recently elected mayor had as a core part of his platform the establishment of a municipal police service. He's working on it. Choosing my words carefully here- the platform was pushed using cost estimates and service provision forecasts that have raised some eyebrows so high they're no longer connected to some folks' faces. The RCMP is a MUCH cheaper option that any of the competing services in B.C. for the simple reason that the RCMP pay is still lagging very badly behind them. Add in the 10% federal subsidy for contracted RCMP services, and going with the RCMP can, at present, be about 25% cheaper for a major municipality. That won't last much longer now that the Mounties have unionized, but it's what got things to this point.



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> 100k population is the bar set by the Quebec Police act for the compulsory provision of level one policing services, the lowest regulated level that requires round the clock patroling and requires the capability of criminal investigation of thirty-one specified crimes and offences.
> 
> To compare to B.C. (and why I say they cheap-out), Every municipality in Quebec with a population of 50k+ must provide it's own police force -either alone or as a regional police.
> 
> I believe the same figures are used by Ontario but haven't look at their Police Act for a while.



I checked the Ontario Police Services Act and found no specific tie to population. It looks like a municipality of any size could contract the OPP if they so desired. In practice, though, you're right that (to the best of my knowledge) every sizeable municipality has its own service or is part of a regional one.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> As a taxpayer, and former employee, there are some positive aspects, in my opinion, about municipalities operating their own services.



There are definitely some advantages- local control over hiring, not having to compete with other services so much for a finite number of trained recruits, greater control over uniforms, equipment, benefits, etc. That can all cut both ways though too- that are economies of scale.



			
				tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> In the US every city and municipality with the exception of Alaska has its own police force in addition to State police posts. Many towns have their own police whose members attend a State police type of training. In fact lately its been a topic of discussion that native villages have hired former felons as police. Then of course are the VPO's, village police officers. I would imagine that the RCMP are stretched thin.
> 
> https://dps.alaska.gov/ast/home



Policing in the U.S. is in some cases decentralized to the point of being an unmitigated disaster. There are a ton of little podunk towns with their own 'police services', often an appointed chief and a small handful of officers. The stories of graft and nepotism you hear out of some of these small forces is unreal. We probably all have an appreciation for how slimy and incestuous tiny-town politics can be; there's no political independence. Many of these communities cannot afford to pay their officers worth a damn, and equipment can be well below standard. Many of these services have to effectively 'self fund' through traffic ticket revenue or civil forfeiture, which brings many of its own problems. 

And then, yeah, there's Alaska... Wow.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Jul 2019)

My friend is a constable there, it's likely most of the experienced remembers of the force will not transfer over as they would lose out pension wise. Most last 6-8 years in Surrey before they burn out, so attrition rate will be high and with no way of getting a nicer posting you need to offer much higher wages. My friend is hoping for North Van as he is around 7 years there and one of the senior constables on the street, completely and utterly done with what goes on there, every day and night.


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## brihard (28 Jul 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> My friend is a constable there, it's likely most of the experienced remembers of the force will not transfer over as they would lose out pension wise. Most last 6-8 years in Surrey before they burn out, so attrition rate will be high and with no way of getting a nicer posting you need to offer much higher wages. My friend is hoping for North Van as he is around 7 years there and one of the senior constables on the street, completely and utterly done with what goes on there, every day and night.



On the flip side, VPD is sweating bullets. They’re gonna haemorrhage members to Surrey. Think of how many of their members live in Maple Ridge, Langley etc and would love the chance to work a half hour or forty minutes closer to home. I’ve heard from a VPD friend that their senior management are bracing for the possibility of losing up to two hundred to laterals.


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## Humphrey Bogart (28 Jul 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Policing in the U.S. is in some cases decentralized to the point of being an unmitigated disaster. There are a ton of little podunk towns with their own 'police services', often an appointed chief and a small handful of officers. The stories of graft and nepotism you hear out of some of these small forces is unreal. We probably all have an appreciation for how slimy and incestuous tiny-town politics can be; there's no political independence. Many of these communities cannot afford to pay their officers worth a damn, and equipment can be well below standard. Many of these services have to effectively 'self fund' through traffic ticket revenue or civil forfeiture, which brings many of its own problems.
> 
> And then, yeah, there's Alaska... Wow.



What you just basically described is New Brunswick to a T!


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## Oldgateboatdriver (28 Jul 2019)

Well, the Surrey thing is a red hering, as we know they are in the process of getting their own, hence I kept them off the list:

https://www.surrey.ca/police/default.aspx

 ;D

As for small town USA, what do you expect when you elect your local Sherriff every four years. ???


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## mariomike (28 Jul 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> On the flip side, VPD is sweating bullets. They’re gonna haemorrhage members to Surrey.



If Surrey is a newly created service, everyone sworn in on the same day should have the same seniority date. Thus making it irrelevant.

I wasn't a police officer. But, I worked for the same municipality just shy of 37 years. Quitting one municipality to hire on with another municipality is not a decision to be taken lightly. There is more than just pension involved. There's loss of seniority. Seniority in a union shop , which municipalities are,  basically rules your life.

Eg: Toronto is surrounded by the municipalities of Halton, Peel, York and Durham. But, I was never aware of a haemorrhage of Toronto police officers ( or any other Metro employees ) quitting to go work for them.

In fact, it was the other way around. 

Eg: Would you rather work for NYPD or LAPD, or Mayberry?

As you gain seniority, you can bid for a station with lower call volume, if that is what you are looking for.

I don't have any scientific data to support this, but it always seemed to me that the busiest stations had the highest morale.


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## FJAG (28 Jul 2019)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> In the US every city and municipality with the exception of Alaska has its own police force in addition to State police posts. Many towns have their own police whose members attend a State police type of training. In fact lately its been a topic of discussion that native villages have hired former felons as police. Then of course are the VPO's, village police officers. I would imagine that the RCMP are stretched thin.
> 
> https://dps.alaska.gov/ast/home



It's really not much different here T6.

The RCMP at heart is a federal police force.

Provinces are constitutionally entitled to have their own provincial police forces and some do (e.g. Ontario and Quebec) but the smaller provinces contract with the RCMP to provide the equivalent of a provincial police force.

Similarly all municipalities, whether urban or rural can have their own police forces. Almost all big and medium sized cities do. Where there are true provincial police forces, the smaller municipalities may contract with the provincial police force to provide that service. Where there is no true provincial police force, the municipalities may contract with the RCMP to provide those services.

In the result the RCMP provides all federal policing, much of the provincial policing and quite a bit of municipal policing.

The RCMP isn't so much stretched thin. It recruits based on how many federal and contracted positions they need, but there are times where there are manpower/recruit flow shortages. One problem that they have is that their pay and benefits lag behind some of the bigger municipalities so there is some bleeding off of trained people. Oh, and don't get me started on stress leave.

We do have one advantage in that most of our larger urban centers are metropolitan areas where all the municipal governments and police forces have been amalgamated unlike in the US where many of the large cities are a hodge podge of independent municipalities and their individual police forces.

Neither do we have County Sheriff departments as you know them. Not every province has counties and those that do generally do not do policing. Similarly our various provincial justice systems has fairly much given up the county court structure.

 :cheers:


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## Oldgateboatdriver (28 Jul 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Provinces are constitutionally entitled to have their own provincial police forces and some do (e.g. Ontario and Quebec) but the smaller provinces contract with the RCMP to provide the equivalent of a provincial police force.
> 
> Similarly all municipalities, whether urban or rural can have their own police forces. Almost all big and medium sized cities do. Where there are true provincial police forces, the smaller municipalities may contract with the provincial police force to provide that service.



Not quite correct, nor exact, FJAG.

First of all, policing is not something the provinces are "entitled" to do - as if it was a choice to take it away from the Federal governement. It is not: It is at its basis a Provincial power (for anyone interested, I suggest a read of Peter Hogg's _Constitutional Law of Canada_, Chapter 19.5 [ Justice - Policing ]). The federal power for policing is for Federal territories, national security [including Border security] and Federal statutes. Otherwise they may also provide policing to provinces that request it and contract for it. All provinces have so contracted except Quebec, Ontario and Nfld-Labrador.

As for municipalities, not "all" can have their own police force. As policing is a Provincial power, it depends on that province's legislation in municipal/police matters. For instance, in Quebec, under the Police Act, all municipalities of 50k+ inhabitants must have their own police force (it's not their choice and they cannot "contract" for it with the SQ or the RCMP), and what level of policing services is to be provided (with six levels, one being the lowest and 6 the most comprehensive) depends on the size of the municipality and is enforced through provincial regulations. However, municipalities of less than 50k must use the services of the Surete du Quebec. Again, it's not a choice for those municipalities.

I honestly don't know how it works in Ontario, but suspect that municipalities cannot just "decide' to have or not a police force. In fact, my reading of the Ontario Police Services Act's first five sections leads me to believ that in Ontario, First-Tier municipalities (whatever that is) and regional municipalities don't have a choice: they must provide policing, and if they chose not to have their own individual one, they must have a police force in conjunction with another municipality having the same obligation. Should they wish to contarct out the services (third option, so to speak), then it must be a contract with the O.P.P. I don't see anything that limits the size of municipalities that can contract with the O.P.P. (unless the term "First-Tier" does so limit the size).

BTW, even if only three provinces don't use the RCMP, they account for 63% of the National population. If you also exclude the population from those cities in the other seven provinces that have their own police force, the RCMP really only polices 20% of Canadians.


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## ballz (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> All provinces have so contracted except Quebec, Ontario and Nfld-Labrador.



I'm only understanding so much of the conversation so perhaps I'm wrong here, but there are RCMP in Nfld for sure, which I believe are contracted by the province. My understanding is that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary do the major* two centers of St. John's and Corner Brook, and then the RCMP are contracted to the police the rest of the province. There's always RCMP from Deer Lake to Clarenville patrolling the highway when you are driving across the province, for example.

*Relative to Newfoundland... St. John's being ~120k and CB being ~30k.


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## PMedMoe (28 Jul 2019)

Maybe this topic needs a split?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (28 Jul 2019)

Well, here is what the RNC itself says it does: https://www.rnc.gov.nl.ca/about-us/what-we-do/

Now, don't get me wrong, there are RCMP detachments in all three provinces I mentionned, but they only operate in the purely Federal fields of jurisdiction (as I expressed them before). As for Nfld-Lab., perhaps they have some contract with the RCMP to provide some services to the province as a supplement to the RNC. On that, I have no information. Considering that until not so long ago the R,N.C. constables did not carry arms, it's quite possible that some such contratc exist, even today.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, the Surrey thing is a red hering, as we know they are in the process of getting their own, hence I kept them off the list:
> 
> https://www.surrey.ca/police/default.aspx
> 
> ...



Far from a done deal. Meanwhile the thought of our two anti-heroes, suffering in the bush, scavenging garbage, warms my heart, in fact when located, slowly push further and further into the bush. let them enjoy the bugs and bears.


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, here is what the RNC itself says it does: https://www.rnc.gov.nl.ca/about-us/what-we-do/
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong, there are RCMP detachments in all three provinces I mentionned, but they only operate in the purely Federal fields of jurisdiction (as I expressed them before). As for Nfld-Lab., perhaps they have some contract with the RCMP to provide some services to the province as a supplement to the RNC. On that, I have no information. Considering that until not so long ago the R,N.C. constables did not carry arms, it's quite possible that some such contratc exist, even today.



And from the Newfoundland and Labrador Department of Justice and Public Safety’s 2017-18 Annual Report.

https://www.assembly.nl.ca/business/electronicdocuments/JPSAnnualReport2017-18.pdf


> Royal Newfoundland Constabulary (RNC)
> The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary (RNC) is committed to providing a fully integrated police service that fosters community partnerships to build safe and healthy communities. While the RNC has the authority to act anywhere in the province, its service delivery areas include 11 municipalities on the Northeast Avalon, the City of Corner Brook as well as the town of Wabush, Labrador City and Churchill Falls in Western Labrador.
> 
> . . . .
> ...


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## FJAG (28 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Not quite correct, nor exact, FJAG.



I'll spare the thread the tedium of my response and pm you.

 :cheers:


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## brihard (29 Jul 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> The RCMP isn't so much stretched thin. It recruits based on how many federal and contracted positions they need, but there are times where there are manpower/recruit flow shortages. One problem that they have is that their pay and benefits lag behind some of the bigger municipalities so there is some bleeding off of trained people. Oh, and don't get me started on stress leave.



Unfortunately this doesn’t come close to the gravity of the situation. The RCMP is stretched ridiculously thin. They’re short by about 2500 sworn members out of an authorized strength of 20,000 or so. That does not account for those who are off duty sick for physical or psychological reasons, it doesn’t account for parental leave either. In practice, pretty much everywhere is painfully thin and a lot of places are dangerously thin. The RCMP has had to choose to simply not do some things that would be expected of them because there’s no more Peter to rob.

Depot is running at capacity and not even really meeting replacement needs due to the boomers retiring. The very recent certification of a union should see a pay package in a few years; that will seat some retirements as people stick around to boost their best five years- probably quite a lot. The RCMP are Presently 92nd in Canada in terms of salary; roughly 17% behind the average salary of the top 20 paid services. And yes, salary is not the only factor in compensation- but it sure as hell hits recruiting and retention. These are police services with which the RCMP competes for quality recruits, and to which the RCMP loses a lot of members after a few years of service and the desire for geographic stability kicks in.

The RCMP has a long way to climb out of the mess it’s in.


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## ballz (29 Jul 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, here is what the RNC itself says it does: https://www.rnc.gov.nl.ca/about-us/what-we-do/



"The RNC provides service to fifteen communities in three jurisdictions serves approximately 214,000 people in these jurisdictions."

Yeah...so I guess more than just Corner Brook and St. John's but my impression was correct. When you are in Nfld, it feels like a 50/50 split because you only see the RNC in a few select places given there are 271 municipalities and the RNC is only in 15 of them... but if you live in a place like Cox's Cove of 500 people where they don't police, you end up in Corner Brook all the time as a necessity of life and see them.

As Blackadder's post points out, by population it's about a 55% RCMP / 45% RNC split. Sorry for helping further derail the thread, I'm was just trying to figure out if I'm misunderstanding or not.


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## mariomike (29 Jul 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Oh, and don't get me started on stress leave.



Me neither. 



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> The RCMP is stretched ridiculously thin. They’re short by about 2500 sworn members out of an authorized strength of 20,000 or so. That does not account for those who are off duty sick for physical or psychological reasons, it doesn’t account for parental leave either.



This is also prime time for pre-booked summer vacation in any organization. That must impact "surge capacity" for a large operation such as this. 

Especially the longer it drags on.


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## JesseWZ (29 Jul 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Unfortunately this doesn’t come close to the gravity of the situation. The RCMP is stretched ridiculously thin. They’re short by about 2500 sworn members out of an authorized strength of 20,000 or so. That does not account for those who are off duty sick for physical or psychological reasons, it doesn’t account for parental leave either. In practice, pretty much everywhere is painfully thin and a lot of places are dangerously thin. The RCMP has had to choose to simply not do some things that would be expected of them because there’s no more Peter to rob.



I'll add to this with a personal anecdote. I dropped into Nelson, BC last year to interview a participant in an investigation. We often utilize the interview rooms of local detachments when we're on the road. I had dealt mostly with civilian administration staff on the phone, but I had been through Nelson before so I knew it to be a sizable (10k + community). Imagine my surprise when we showed up around 3:00 pm on a Friday to an empty detachment. The secretary was just leaving for the weekend and told me the *only working member* was on the road and respectfully requested we lock up the detachment upon completion of our interview. I was a bit *flabbergasted*, as it was the middle of summer, and Nelsons population swells with the tourism. Plus, several concurrent medium sized events were on that night, and they could only manage to field one person with the nearest on duty backup being Castlegar, BC, 30 minutes away.


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## mariomike (29 Jul 2019)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> The secretary was just leaving for the weekend and told me the *only working member* was on the road and respectfully requested we lock up the detachment upon completion of our interview.



Where I live has had two officers per car since the 1970's. But, I am guessing that was a member working without a partner?


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Jul 2019)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> . . .  I was a bit *flabbergasted*, as it was the middle of summer, and Nelsons population swells with the tourism. Plus, several concurrent medium sized events were on that night, and they could only manage to field one person with the nearest on duty backup being Castlegar, BC, 30 minutes away.



Which would flabbergast me as well, except I would expect the "Nelson Police Department" would be responsible for the events that occur within the boundary of their municipality.  And the Nelson Police probably provide back-up to the RCMP detachment if the situation warrants. 





> The Nelson Police Department currently has three officers seconded to an integrated provincial traffic unit – the Kootenay Integrated Road Safety Unit (K-IRSU). Blended with members of the RCMP, this unit is mandated to conduct proactive traffic enforcement . . .


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## Alberta Bound (16 May 2020)

Apologies for my lack of skill on here and I have not been following the forum regularly for awhile.

I wanted to say to Brihard, great post. You are 100% on target. 

You can bet that everyone involved will be armchair quarterbacking their own decisions. Having been the supervisor making decisions when gun calls, bomb threats, robberies, pursuits and all the other calls come in. There aren’t many times when you don’t look back at what you could have done better, faster, smoother, safer. I feel sadness for the people of N.S. especially those directly affected, it is devastating. Including those that made decisions that seemed correct at the time that will now haunt them the rest of their lives.

While I am confident that all the processes that will have months and years to pick apart the response will find areas for improvement. Some simpler than others. Some well meaning but not easily implemented.

I have never worked in H Division (N.S.). But I have been posted to K (AB), D (MB) & Nat HQ. Having done assignments in BC, SK, PQ, NWT, NFLD and International Policing. Most of that in front line operational policing, predominantly rural.

Many people think that rural policing is Mayberry. Slow speed, simple files, relaxed. Far from it. It is the hardest policing to be done. Large patrol areas, often numerous distinct communities, lower population ratios meaning less resourcing and limited access with long distances to specialty services. And long distance in each province and territory takes on different meanings like an hour drive, or 8 hours drive, 3 hr ATV ride, 2 hrs by hi rail, 1.5 hr by boat, 4 hr flight IF weather to land. 

Your General Duty Cst in those spots does it all. School liaison, Media, traffic enforcement, first response to all types of calls including many violent ones. Then in almost all cases. That GD Cst takes on that investigation with limited help all the way to the end. I want to point out that the clearance rates and quality of investigations in rural RCMP detachments have been compared to “big city” police. They have been found to meet or exceed the standard. You don’t get “better” policing because you live in a big city. You just get a different delivery of policing. 
I found as well trained and professional EMS, Firefighters, Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, etc in those small communities as I did in bigger centres. Often better as they were more well rounded. But like the police they were often staffed and equipped based on the lowest common denominator. 

If you were to give me more money in many of those communities often I wouldn’t have bought more cops. I would have gotten more of all the people who can better address the underlying issues that cops have to deal with later. 

To be good at front line operational policing and stick to it in your career, is a skill. 

I have talked to members who worked with Heidi. She was THAT cop. Good with people, hard working and a solid investigator. I have no doubt that she made a calculated decision. Knowing the possible outcomes, and didn’t hesitate.

Drones, more helicopters Or fixed wing, 2 member cars are all nice ideas. In some instances we can improve in some of those areas. It only costs money. But it isn’t simple to do and in many cases while I want more resources. I don’t want them in 2 person cars. While the budget for a helicopter could get me so many of the things I need before I need a helicopter.
I worked in a northern community 10 hrs drive from Edmonton, where we policed about 2000 people in two communities. 8 members and 5 pickups, 2 snowmobiles and 2 ATVs. About 5000 investigations per year and 2500! Prisoners. 2 yr limited posting. Any extra funding I would have spent on my members to make life better and to get more members. A drone would have only helped out a dozen times a year. A helicopter maybe the same. But at what costs.

The RCMP has something like 10 different funding models:
International policing programs paid for by Foreign Affaires,
National policing programs that support all Canadian Law Enforcement Agencies,
Federal Policing addressing National - International crime, Terrorism, Borders, etc,
Protective policing, PM, GG, IPPs, Parliament,
Fenced funding For special positions and /or projects with other agencies, IE CBSA, CAF, etc

Contract Policing itself has small and big municipal contracts, enhanced positions, provincial policing, tripartite positions.

All of these have different ways to pay for salaries, equipment, how the money is spent and on what. Each has someone directing how they want their share spent. For the RCMP in AB to get another aircraft ( there are 4 now. 2 Pilatus, a Cessna and an A-Star) (The A-Star Isn’t for just traffic operations. That is a secondary role.) Who pays isn’t a simple answer.

I have been most scared when I have been alone or with a few members at something life threatening where more support was too far to matter.  I have been most stressed when making decisions for those calls that would directly affect others lives. I have seen people die because of their choices, but never one of the members I was leading, luckily. I have been proudest when my members have come through the other side having done their duty.

I am 25 years in and not sure I want to go many more. The RCMP (like any organization makes lots of mistakes,  almost always evolving and improving).I hope you all can appreciate a little of the complexity.

Sorry for the ramble.


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## mariomike (16 May 2020)

Alberta Bound said:
			
		

> I found as well trained and professional EMS, Firefighters, Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, etc in those small communities as I did in bigger centres. Often better as they were more well rounded. But like the police they were often staffed and equipped based on the lowest common denominator.
> 
> If you were to give me more money in many of those communities often I wouldn’t have bought more cops. I would have gotten more of all the people who can better address the underlying issues that cops have to deal with later.



 :goodpost:

If you don't mind me asking, what is the funding formula? 

In the municipality I am familiar with, funding was based on the census population, not its business day population. 

As a result, there were always more people requiring service than the system was funded for.


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## FJAG (16 May 2020)

Alberta Bound said:
			
		

> ...
> Contract Policing itself has small and big municipal contracts, enhanced positions, provincial policing, tripartite positions.
> ...



You're bang on with the issues and I think that most Canadians lack an understanding of the function of the RCMP when doing contract policing. Rather than being a national force they are a police service basically filing municipal or provincial policing roles.

My son-in-law worked a number of years at Portage La Prairie in Manitoba which essentially has three detachments: a city detachment, a rural municipality detachment and a highways detachment. Manitoba, like many provinces does not have a provincial police force per se, it retains and contracts with the RCMP as do the various municipalities that do not have their own municipal police forces. In effect the coverage given in such situations is very much dependant of how much the province or municipality is prepared to spend and what the individual contract buy them from the RCMP.

 :cheers:


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## mariomike (16 May 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Rather than being a national force they are a police service basically filing municipal or provincial policing roles.



See also,

Who does what in policing?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901.0.html
2 pages
OP: "The RCMP are also the provincial police in the contracted provinces. This includes functioning as municipal police for several cities with 100k+ population, and many in the five figures."


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## MilEME09 (16 May 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> See also,
> 
> Who does what in policing?
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901.0.html
> ...



Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?


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## Colin Parkinson (16 May 2020)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Perhaps Dimsum could weigh in, but I do not believe that NavCanada has quite wrapped its head around RPAS operations in a VFR setting, which will limit how much any police force can use this technology for anything other than a specific incident or scene management. I don’t see RPAS doing traffic patrol any time soon, if that is what you are suggesting.



Part of the problem is all the legislation is being driven by pilots. The modern commercial and recreational drone (to use common usage) is not flown, it is directed, they fly themselves. The drones are eating away at the bread and butter jobs that keep civil aviation and helicopter companies alive. Your asking someone to mange that which is eating the rice out of their bowel. The reality is that soon manned aviation will be required to stay above X altitude (outside of landing, takeoff) so as not to interfere with drone operations which will be much more important economically.


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## FJAG (16 May 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?



Not sure that's necessary. The RCMP recruits and trains with those contracts in mind albeit that recruiting shortfalls, retirements and retention issues sometimes cause manning issues just like in the CAF. Much of the benefit that the RCMP brings to such communities is a consistent standard of training and detachment management which would be hard to achieve with small rural detachments. 

Note too that in provinces with provincial police forces such as the OPP and QPP you have the same issues in that the provincial police does much of the rural and small municipal policing as well as bring a centralized forensic, major crime and specialized police capabilities to communities that would be hard pressed to provide it themselves.

 :cheers:


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## Blackadder1916 (16 May 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?



What makes you think that the RCMP would have those resources and remain the same size if they were not contracted to municipalities and provinces?

British Columbia
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/justice/criminal-justice/policing-in-bc/the-structure-of-police-services-in-bc/municipal


> Under the Police Act, municipalities with populations 5,000 and over must provide their own law enforcement by:
> 
> Forming their own police department
> Contracting with an existing police department
> Contracting with the provincial government for RCMP police services



Alberta
https://www.auma.ca/sites/default/files/Advocacy/resolutions/2009_policy_paper_2.pdf


> TYPES OF POLICING ARRANGEMENTS IN ALBERTA
> The Police Act (Alberta) provides for a municipality to receive policing services by:
> • contracting with the federal or provincial government or another municipality for the
> provision of policing services;
> ...



Nova Scotia
https://novascotia.ca/just/global_docs/NSRCMP_Fact_Sheet.pdf


> The Provincial Police Service Agreement
> Who’s responsible for policing? Policing is a municipal responsibility in Nova Scotia. Under
> the Police Act, “Every municipality is responsible for the policing of and maintenance of law and
> order in the municipality and for providing and maintaining an adequate, efficient and effective
> police department at its expense in accordance with its needs.”


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## mariomike (17 May 2020)

Interesting discussion. 

When I was very young, we had our own Village of Swansea police department. It was later amalgamated into Metro Police.

Not to say federal departments are better or worse than municipal. Just different.

An excellent discussion of the subject here,

https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901/post-1578640.html#msg1578640


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## brihard (17 May 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?



Where do you think the budget and bodies would come from? Surrey BC has been looking at this for a couple of years and, pre-COVID at elast, were on the cusp of putting it into practice. It's anticipated that a lot of the membership of the soon-to-maybe-still-be Surrey Police would come from existing RCMP members, or by poaching municipal members from Vancouver Police who live out closer to Surrey. There would be a big game of musical chairs as cops in the Lower Mainland bounce about finding the best spot for them, but in the end the RCMP would lose funding for a lot of bodies. In the short term a few hundred more Mounties would probably net out as available to fill existing vacancies elsewhere, but that's just a typical human resources shell game. It doesn't mean the RCMP would suddenly have more to work with. Any currently RCMP contract going to a municipal or provincial force would be pulling a lot of Mounties over with it. That would necessarily have to be part of the plan. 

Even if a thousand new Mounties were dumped into the system tomorrow, it wouldn't suddenly mean there would be substantially more on the road in rural or remote communities.  It wouldn't mean more ERTs or containment teams. All thsoe bodies would immediately disappear into existing soft vacancies, filling positions that are filled and funded on paper but that are vacant in practice due to MATA/PATA, long term sick leave, etc.

It's money. It's always money. Any government, whether municipal, provincial, or federal, that wants the RCMP to have certain capabilities or resources will need to write a check. And, as Alberta Bound very neatly pointed out from his considerable experience, there's a lot of opportunity cost when you put resources into boutique units. In a lot of cases, putting an extra five or six members into a street crime or prolific offender team with investigative resources is going to do a lot more to keep the public safe on an ongoing basis. But when the feces hit the oscillating ventilator, people scream to have something (without being able to articulate what) in place that would almost never make sense to have and would take away form a lot of things that would...


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## brihard (17 May 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Interesting discussion.
> 
> When I was very young, we had our own Village of Swansea police department. It was later amalgamated into Metro Police.
> 
> ...



Maybe worth a thread split over to that one starting some time yesterday?


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## mariomike (17 May 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Maybe worth a thread split over to that one starting some time yesterday?



ok


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## lenaitch (17 May 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Should we mandate then municipalities of a certain size form their own police force so RCMP resources can be diverted where they are needed?



Not related to the RCMP, but I believe Quebec has been much more prescriptive than the other provinces.  I'm not fully aware of the details but they mandated which municipality must maintain their own service and, by default, which must be policed by the SQ.  I also believe they laid out some kind of crime benchmark above which smaller departments shall not take the investigative lead.  This latter was a problem in Ontario in the days of many small municipal departments who convinced their councils that they were 'full service'. They would hang onto a major investigation until such time public pressure or internal realization forced them to call the OPP.  By that time, many investigations were past being recoverable.


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## brihard (17 May 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Not related to the RCMP, but I believe Quebec has been much more prescriptive than the other provinces.  I'm not fully aware of the details but they mandated which municipality must maintain their own service and, by default, which must be policed by the SQ.  I also believe they laid out some kind of crime benchmark above which smaller departments shall not take the investigative lead.  This latter was a problem in Ontario in the days of many small municipal departments who convinced their councils that they were 'full service'. They would hang onto a major investigation until such time public pressure or internal realization forced them to call the OPP.  By that time, many investigations were past being recoverable.



I could easily see that. There's one advantage with the RCMP- pooling of resources for major crimes. In BC there's even an integrated approach to homicide for the lower mainland east of Vancouver; the RCMP and four of the municipal services put together the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team. It just makes sense to regionalize this outside of major municipalities.

Major cases can be horrendously complex, and it takes a very methodical and disciplined approach right form the outset to make the case is not only solved, but survives the pressures of disclosure and trial. Smaller services can really struggle with this.


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## Blackadder1916 (17 May 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Not related to the RCMP, but I believe Quebec has been much more prescriptive than the other provinces.  . . .



The Six Levels of Police Service According to Population Size
https://www.securitepublique.gouv.qc.ca/en/police-prevention/police-service-levels.html


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## lenaitch (17 May 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Major cases can be horrendously complex, and it takes a very methodical and disciplined approach right form the outset to make the case is not only solved, but survives the pressures of disclosure and trial. Smaller services can really struggle with this.



The last nine years of my career.  Too many politicians, as well as some police commanders who don't have a strong criminal background, still think a couple of investigators and a couple of weeks (perhaps one more to write the brief) and it's all wrapped up.  Too much TV- all done in 60 minutes less commercials.  My former employer took the position many years ago that senior member is really a Major Case Manager.  You can be the best detective since Clouseau, but if you can't run a diverse, large and focused team containing a lot of Type As, while at the same time fighting for resources and funding while things are still 'hot', you will be less than effective.  Multi-jurisdictional projects are a whole different level.


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## dapaterson (17 May 2020)

I've watched TV.  There are magic computers and equipment that identify anything, and it all gets wrapped up within an hour (less commercials).


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## FJAG (17 May 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I've watched TV.  There are magic computers and equipment that identify anything, and it all gets wrapped up within an hour (less commercials).



And if if the computer can't do it, they write an algorithm in 5 minutes so that it does do the job. Gotta love those algorithms.

 ;D


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## lenaitch (17 May 2020)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The Six Levels of Police Service According to Population Size
> https://www.securitepublique.gouv.qc.ca/en/police-prevention/police-service-levels.html



Thanks for that.  I've often wondered but never bothered to look.  Ontario has an Adequacy and Effectiveness Regulation outlining what a police service has to provide. Some must be provided by the service itself, some can provided through formal agreements with other services.  We do not have formal policy on what each can or cannot investigate.  There aren't that many really small municipal departments left, but that type of policy would be beneficial.  Some have really cocked it up in the past.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/990003/v1


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## FJAG (17 May 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Thanks for that.  I've often wondered but never bothered to look.  Ontario has an Adequacy and Effectiveness Regulation outlining what a police service has to provide. Some must be provided by the service itself, some can provided through formal agreements with other services.  We do not have formal policy on what each can or cannot investigate.  There aren't that many really small municipal departments left, but that type of policy would be beneficial.  Some have really cocked it up in the past.
> 
> https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/990003/v1



That's the difference between civil law (which tells you how to suck eggs) and common law (which gives you left and right arcs - or at least used to)

 ;D


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