# Feds to announce home bases for new fighter jets



## old medic (8 Sep 2010)

Feds to announce home bases for new fighter jets

By BRYN WEESE, Parliamentary Bureau
http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/canada/2010/09/08/15286941.html



> OTTAWA — Canada’s new fleet of 65 F-35 stealth fighter jets will likely be based in Quebec and Alberta.
> 
> Defence Minister Peter MacKay is expected to announce the details Thursday at CFB Bagotville, Que. His parliamentary secretary, Laurie Hawn, is making a similar announcement at CFB Cold Lake, Alta.
> 
> ...


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## belka (8 Sep 2010)

How is this news?

Since we need new infrastructure to support these new aircraft anyways, why not move the squadrons to more favorable and strategically important locations (ie near major cities)? Can't comment on conditions out East, but the fighter community out West would be better off moving out of hickville and into a location where people might actually enjoy their time away from work. ....... Heard Comox has plenty of room for new hangars.    :-\


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## George Wallace (9 Sep 2010)

belka said:
			
		

> How is this news?
> 
> Since we need new infrastructure to support these new aircraft anyways, why not move the squadrons to more favorable and strategically important locations (ie near major cities)? Can't comment on conditions out East, but the fighter community out West would be better off moving out of hickville and into a location where people might actually enjoy their time away from work. ....... Heard Comox has plenty of room for new hangars.    :-\



When did they start letting "Big City kids" into the Air Force?


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## aesop081 (9 Sep 2010)

belka said:
			
		

> Heard Comox has plenty of room for new hangars.    :-\



LMAO. If the fighters were ever to move to Comox permanently, there would be a valley wide uprising. People in the surrounding area complain about the noise from the cadet tow planes..........some people in the PMQs complain about the swishing noise the gliders make............


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## George Wallace (9 Sep 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> LMAO...........some people in the PMQs complain about the swishing noise the gliders make............



There's that swishing again.  Do the gliders wear kilts?     ;D    (Its after midnight)


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## ArmyRick (9 Sep 2010)

Belka, that is one of the dumbest reasons to move an air force fighter base to big city areas.

I am not an air force expert but here are a few thoughts;
1. Where they are best able to react to domestic threats should be top of the list (Alberta and Quebec look pretty good to me);
2. They need uninterupted air space to train. Trying to bob and weave around civilian air traffic might be a head ache;
3. That would add far more additional cost when existing facilities exist in Bagotville and Cold Lake. This purchase is already under scrutiny from the public and the opposition.

Lets not add fuel to the fire

Any Air Force types who have more of a clue, want to add something?


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## dimsum (9 Sep 2010)

While ArmyRick has good points, I'll play devil's advocate and say that Nellis AFB in Las Vegas is a large fighter and training base.


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## captloadie (9 Sep 2010)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> While ArmyRick has good points, I'll play devil's advocate and say that Nellis AFB in Las Vegas is a large fighter and training base.



On the edge of a huge dessert where no one is going to complain about noise or airspace violations. Even Trenton has silent hours now, and it is arguably the centre of the air transport world. Anyone know why? Yup, because people who decided to build luxury homes under the flight path decided the noise bothered them. The thundering noise of F-35s would probably harm the whales and the Bald eagles so the west coast would be a no go.


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## George Wallace (9 Sep 2010)

It amazes me how stupid people really are.  If you live near an airport you should expect to hear the sound of aircraft.  Those living in PMQs are left with little choice, accept the noise or buy a house away from the Base.  Those who don't live in PMQs should know better than to buy a house near the "noise zone".  

It amazes me that a person would buy a house near a railroad track and then complain about the noise and vibration of trains passing, or a person would buy a house near a pig farm and then complain of the smell and blame the farmer.  

belka

You had a choice.  You made it.   You have to live with your choice.  Cold Lake is a gigantic Training Area.  The airforce has loud jet aircraft.


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## Odie441 (9 Sep 2010)

Good choices considering all of the infrastructure already exists to support the current fighters. As for the Nellis comment, it and Luke AFB (Phoenix) wew there a long time before the cities grew up. Nellis aircraft must transit close to 75 miles to the range area in the desert before they can commence training. Cold lake has Primrose Range 5 minutes off the end of the Runway(s). CL is also home of AFTTC which holds Exercise Maple Flag every year. So, it makes sense to put the fighters in Bagtown and Cool Pool.

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/4w-4e/mapleflag/index-eng.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Flag


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## Gunner98 (9 Sep 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It amazes me how stupid people really are.  If you live near an airport you should expect to hear the sound of aircraft.  Those living in PMQs are left with little choice, accept the noise or buy a house away from the Base.  Those who don't live in PMQs should know better than to buy a house near the "noise zone".
> 
> It amazes me that a person would buy a house near a railroad track and then complain about the noise and vibration of trains passing, or a person would buy a house near a pig farm and then complain of the smell and blame the farmer.
> 
> ...



George, living even 10 kms SE from Petawawa you still hear the guns and machine guns fire, loud enough for the dogs to hide in the crawl space.  As for beside the tracks, it is a shrewd (buy low) investment for when the railway ceases to use those tracks and your investment skyrockets (as it did through Petawawa).       

Living near an airport it depends on the changing winds affecting flight paths.


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## The Bread Guy (9 Sep 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It amazes me how stupid people really are.  If you live near an airport you should expect to hear the sound of aircraft.  Those living in PMQs are left with little choice, accept the noise or buy a house away from the Base.  Those who don't live in PMQs should know better than to buy a house near the "noise zone".
> 
> It amazes me that a person would buy a house near a railroad track and then complain about the noise and vibration of trains passing, or a person would buy a house near a pig farm and then complain of the smell and blame the farmer.


I've seen lots sold here in Thunder Bay with some sort of declaration one has to sign which says, "yeah, I know it's near an airport/railway yard, and there's gonna be noise" to prevent backlash later.  Any such documentation in use anywhere else?


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## PuckChaser (9 Sep 2010)

CFB Kingston lost its ability to use the ranges after 11 pm (making night shoots in summer near impossible). We also can't use T-Flashes anymore, regardless of hours (that might be because there's no EOD here). The Gore is now a glorified driving path in the woods, and makes military training ridiculous.


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## belka (9 Sep 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> belka
> 
> You had a choice.  You made it.   You have to live with your choice.  Cold Lake is a gigantic Training Area.  The airforce has loud jet aircraft.



Don't get me wrong, I love the job aspect of Cold Lake and I love fighters. I've been to almost every Wing in the CF and they've all been too slow and quiet for my tastes in comparison. I would gladly stay with the fighters for the rest of my career.

[quote author=CND Aviator]LMAO. If the fighters were ever to move to Comox permanently, there would be a valley wide uprising. People in the surrounding area complain about the noise from the cadet tow planes..........some people in the PMQs complain about the swishing noise the gliders make............[/quote]

I think that YQQ was there long before than most of the surrounding towns. I especially like the people who build new houses on the cliffs at the end on rwy12 THEN complain about the noise. I really hope they enjoyed their evenings during the olympics. 

The US has fighter bases or fighters based next to major cities in many states, don't see why we can't have the same.


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## dapaterson (9 Sep 2010)

There's always Downsview.  Or Billy Bishop (Toronto Island).  Can't imagine anyone in Hogtown complaining about a fighter base.  Though the PLD cost would bankrupt the CF...


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## Brutus (9 Sep 2010)

I don't know...I tend to think that having the new jets stationed on the West Coast, the East Coast, Southern Ontario  and in the North would make sense.


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## GK .Dundas (9 Sep 2010)

belka said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, I love the job aspect of Cold Lake and I love fighters. I've been to almost every Wing in the CF and they've all been too slow and quiet for my tastes in comparison. I would gladly stay with the fighters for the rest of my career.
> 
> I think that YQQ was there long before than most of the surrounding towns. I especially like the people who build new houses on the cliffs at the end on rwy12 THEN complain about the noise. I really hope they enjoyed their evenings during the olympics.
> 
> The US has fighter bases or fighters based next to major cities in many states, don't see why we can't have the same.


 Why can't we have bases next to major cities? Betty Kennedy 's kid is why ! 
 Sometime in the mid 70s a CF 5 taking off from CFB Winnipeg lost both engines after take off the pilot managed to direct the plane into a empty field and punched out . ( the pilot was the son of Toronto Broadcaster Betty Kennedy) 
The Local MP who was a Tory who on more then one occasion  had talked about giving the reserves "real" A/C like the CF 5 I guess .  He  got several hundred complaints from his constituents.
As an aside most MP's view 1 letter or phone call as the equivalent of 1000 calls or letter.
 the MP reversed his position and demanded the Government do some about these dangerous Military A/C endangering his precoius votes,,,,,,.......... err , I ment voters!


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## The Bread Guy (9 Sep 2010)

The official word....


> While visiting 3 Wing Bagotville, Quebec, the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, announced today that sixty-five F-35 Lightning II fighter jets will be based at Canadian Forces Base Bagotville and Canadian Forces Base Cold Lake.
> 
> “The acquisition of sixty-five F-35 Lightning II aircraft is the realization of our Government’s key commitment under the Canada First Defence Strategy to acquire a fifth generation fighter aircraft,” said Minister MacKay. “I'm pleased to announce 3 Wing Bagotville in Quebec and 4 Wing Cold Lake in Alberta will equally serve as operating bases for Canada's new fighter jets. This provides continued and significant economic opportunities for these two communities.”
> 
> ...


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## catalyst (9 Sep 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> LMAO. If the fighters were ever to move to Comox permanently, there would be a valley wide uprising. People in the surrounding area complain about the noise from the cadet tow planes..........some people in the PMQs complain about the swishing noise the gliders make............



I second this - as somebody who was on the receiving end of the tow plane complaints........

No minqueries this summer  (yet)


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## Old Sweat (9 Sep 2010)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Why can't we have bases next to major cities? Betty Kennedy 's kid is why !
> Sometime in the mid 70s a CF 5 taking off from CFB Winnipeg lost both engines after take off the pilot managed to direct the plane into a empty field and punched out . ( the pilot was the son of Toronto Broadcaster Betty Kennedy)
> The Local MP who was a Tory who on more then one occasion  had talked about giving the reserves "real" A/C like the CF 5 I guess .  He  got several hundred complaints from his constituents.
> As an aside most MP's view 1 letter or phone call as the equivalent of 1000 calls or letter.
> the MP reversed his position and demanded the Government do some about these dangerous Military A/C endangering his precoius votes,,,,,,.......... err , I ment voters!


I doubt if that crash had any effect at all on where we base our limited amount of fighter aircraft.

In any case, I know the pilot very well and Betty Kennnedy was his stepmother.


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## Good2Golf (9 Sep 2010)

"You're buying a house beside an airport/impact area" waivers mean NOTHING.  

Everyone loves to be protected, but loves even more not being inconvenienced by the training/operation of those protecting them.  CF units across the country are continually affected by people who bought "just down the road" and don't want to hear the sound of freedom, even the "high-speed, low-drag, no-sparks" folks have to move because of the owners of the big, glitzy houses beside them that were built well after the original facilities were constructed and employed.


GK.Dundas is bang on with this bit!!!


> ...As an aside most MP's view 1 letter or phone call as the equivalent of 1000 calls or letter...



Cheers
G2G


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## Newt (9 Sep 2010)

Wait... what? 

Two Members of Parliament (avec assorted handlers and assistants) have to be transported to two separate Wings to release the same statement? This very important statement is that the fighter bases for the new fighters will be: (drum roll) The same as the bases for the old fighters! 

Wow. Just wow.


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## medicineman (9 Sep 2010)

Yeah, on the bright side, they're going to Bagotville and Mold Lake - not exactly the junkets taggers on hope for.  Pity Goose Bay or Iqualuit aren't being included - crappy weather season is almost upon them  ;D.

MM


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## Strike (9 Sep 2010)

I know residents of Smuggler's Cove in Kingston sign a waiver stating they will not complain about the aircraft noise.  There are also certain locations in Moose Jaw where one cannot insure their house for damage due to falling aircraft parts as they are under a flight path.

People can be really stupid.  I recall taking complains from people about the Sea Kings conducting water bird training in the lake behind the airfield.  Wait a sec.  Shearwater was one of the first airfields in Canada.  Where was your house when the airfield came in to being?


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## FoverF (10 Sep 2010)

When chicken number 1 hatches, we'll have him nest on the top shelf.
And when chicken number 2 hatches, we'll have her nest on the bottom shelf.
And when chicken number 3 hatches, we'll have him nest next to chicken number one on the top shelf.
We'll eat chicken number 4, because it will be biggest.


I'll just go ahead and hold my breath now, since it's a done deal for the government 2 successive elections from now to go ahead and put 65 fighters on the ramp at Cold Lake and Bagotville...


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## captloadie (10 Sep 2010)

We must also remember what the main role of the fighters in Canada is protecting our sovereignty. The only real threat comes from the North, so you need to position the aircraft somewhere they can respond within range of the threat and the home base. Most of our big cities are in the south, geographically separated from any threat you would need a fighter jet to respond to, or close enough for Big Brother to scramble birds if required.


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## Rogo (10 Sep 2010)

To the earlier comment about having  bases on east/west coast, north and  down in Ontario.  I figure if there are any A/C that require to be "intercepted" or "escorted" or whatever the politically correct term is, the US will jump on them asap. Unless a plane takes off in Buffalo and heads straight to Toronto, we should be okay.


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## Brutus (10 Sep 2010)

Rogo said:
			
		

> To the earlier comment about having  bases on east/west coast, north and  down in Ontario.  I figure if there are any A/C that require to be "intercepted" or "escorted" or whatever the politically correct term is, the US will jump on them asap. Unless a plane takes off in Buffalo and heads straight to Toronto, we should be okay.



Yes, but wouldn't it be nice to not have to rely on others for this? Also, I can't think of a better distribution based on any real threat of attack.


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## PuckChaser (10 Sep 2010)

Brutus said:
			
		

> Yes, but wouldn't it be nice to not have to rely on others for this?



That's why we're in NORAD. We help out Alaska keep people from coming over the North Pole, and the US gives us a hand intercepting rogue aircraft that may head towards us from inside their border.


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## Brutus (10 Sep 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's why we're in NORAD. We help out Alaska keep people from coming over the North Pole, and the US gives us a hand intercepting rogue aircraft that may head towards us from inside their border.


Point taken.


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## SeanNewman (10 Sep 2010)

I used to feel sorry for myself in terms of postings being in The RCR (Oromocto/Fredericton is my best hope, certainly better than Petawawa/Pembroke).

I missed the boat on London and Germany, and nothing that will bring me to Kingston or Edmonton.

Then I learned where fighter pilots have to choose from for postings and I feel incredibly fortunate.  You guys might get the hotels on travel when we get the tent, but my hat is really off to you for the QOL hit your families must take.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Sep 2010)

Is this actually a pretty good aircraft?


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## PuckChaser (11 Sep 2010)

Depends who you ask on here. Some are militantly against it, mostly because its behind schedule, others think its good we're finally getting top of the line aircraft.


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## Jammer (11 Sep 2010)

F-35=Unproven airframe
Single engine (nothing is 100% reliable)
65 planned to be ordered.
The attrition rate will adversely affect the inventory.
No economic spinoffs.

F-18E Super Hornet=
Proven airframe.
Two engines (better reliability)
More A/C for similar cost.
Economic spinoffs.
Better multi-role capabilty.


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## belka (11 Sep 2010)

Jammer said:
			
		

> F-35=Unproven airframe
> Single engine (nothing is 100% reliable)
> 65 planned to be ordered.
> The attrition rate will adversely affect the inventory.
> ...



 :

F-18SH - Underpowered, overweight tin can that was rushed into production to replace the F-14. Very low international sales says it all.

F-35 - Better than the F-18SH in every way, technologically, economically and the best replacement for the future.

What are we discussing here again?


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## PuckChaser (11 Sep 2010)

Jammer said:
			
		

> F-35=Unproven airframe
> No economic spinoffs.
> 
> F-18E Super Hornet=
> Economic spinoffs.



Uh... what? The cash we've put into the R&D has allowed Canadian Aerospace companies to bid and win numerous contracts which have a dollar value far above what we've put into the program. You've basically just spouted information skewed to your personal view with little to no evidence to support.


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## Zoomie (11 Sep 2010)

Brutus said:
			
		

> I tend to think that having the new jets stationed on the West Coast, the East Coast, Southern Ontario  and in the North would make sense.



Open source information will show that we have Canadian NORAD assets deployed frequently to FOBs and Q's all over Canada.  Everywhere you have mentioned is covered at some point in time.


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## aesop081 (12 Sep 2010)

Brutus said:
			
		

> I don't know...I tend to think that having the new jets stationed on the West Coast, the East Coast, *Southern Ontario  * and in the North would make sense.



Hughe threat in SO that needs to be met eh ?

 :


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## SeanNewman (12 Sep 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Hugh threat in SO that needs to be met eh ?



I know it does seem pretty silly to put them there, well within range of Mexican extended-range artillery.


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## gun runner (12 Sep 2010)

LOL ,that is a good one... LONG RANGE MEXICAN ARTILLERY...what is that?


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## TimBit (13 Sep 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I used to feel sorry for myself in terms of postings being in The RCR (Oromocto/Fredericton is my best hope, certainly better than Petawawa/Pembroke).
> 
> I missed the boat on London and Germany, and nothing that will bring me to Kingston or Edmonton.
> 
> Then I learned where fighter pilots have to choose from for postings and I feel incredibly fortunate.  You guys might get the hotels on travel when we get the tent, but my hat is really off to you for the QOL hit your families must take.



Uh? Saguenay is a GREAT place to live. I'd trade Freddie for it any day of the year. As for COld Lake, well, then, yeah...


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## observor 69 (13 Sep 2010)

Been posted to Cold Lake, Bagotville and Chatham.
I trade any one of them for a posting to Trenton or any other place close to civilization.


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## Tank Troll (13 Sep 2010)

Some times living in the big city isn't all that it is cracked up to be. The amenities are nice but housing, crime, time to commute, it all factors in.


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## ArmyRick (13 Sep 2010)

I have been posted to a city unit before (2VP in Winnipeg) and yes there are some nice things but there is also some crappy issues to it as well.

I personally found places like Petawawa and Meaford, nice places to be/live. I guess it depends on the man (I hate big city life myself nothing wrong with a little fresh country air!)


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## TimBit (13 Sep 2010)

Agreed! When my wife and I think of 3rd and 4th Wing as potential postings, we think more of the fresh air, the hunting and fishing, and the safety of raising your kids there than of the lack of cultural activities. Once you got kids in tow, you couldn't care less about clubbing, fine dining and cultural evenings really...


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## aesop081 (13 Sep 2010)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Agreed! When my wife and I think of *3rd* and *4th * Wing as potential postings,



Just as a minor point, there is no "th", "st" or "nd". Just pronounced "Three Wing", "Four Wing", etc..


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## observor 69 (13 Sep 2010)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Agreed! When my wife and I think of 3rd and 4th Wing as potential postings, we think more of the fresh air, the hunting and fishing, and the safety of raising your kids there than of the lack of cultural activities. Once you got kids in tow, you couldn't care less about clubbing, fine dining and cultural evenings really...



It was 12 years before we were at a location where my wife could attend a university.
After she finished her degree it meant she was 16 years behind her peers in her profession.
Fortunately my son was just at the age to enter university when we got that 12 year posting.

And we aren't much for clubbing, fine dinning or cultural evenings either.  ;D


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## ArmyRick (13 Sep 2010)

How about this to end the argument.

Fighter jets, tanks, wings, fleets, brigades, etc, etc get stationed where they are needed and can exercise/fine tune their skills at maximum profficiency. Stationing units in cities for the members convience does not do the tax payer justice. Canadians have every right to expect us to be ready and the most able to do the job. 

I guess if that means we are posted in the middle of no where, then so be it. The needs of the service come first.


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## SupersonicMax (13 Sep 2010)

You don't need a fighter base to be in the middle of nowhere.  Just the range.  Like it's been said, plenty of fighter bases in the US around major centers.  Especially close to the coasts, you can easily get airspace to work into and we can get to ranges pretty much anywhere.  We regularly go to Valcartier and Gagetown from Bagotville and Wainwright, Shilo and Suffield from Cold Lake.   

FWIW, Bagotville is not small.  It's 150 000 people.  You can have both:  the city living with the outdoors literally just outside your doorstep.


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## captloadie (14 Sep 2010)

In Canada's case, where except for the west coast, you have to fly through alot of nothing buffer before you get to economic and political targets. F-35's are meant to intercept, preferably at a great distance from the target. And, if _they_ are going to target Canada's fighter force to nullify our air supremacy  :, you don't want our major centres to take all the collateral damage of an airstrike because we've placed large bases on their outskirts.


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## SeanNewman (14 Sep 2010)

captloadie said:
			
		

> .... F-35's are meant to intercept, preferably at a great distance from the target...



Max,

What are your thoughts on this?  You've posted a few times before about a jet's top speed and how little it actually gets used, but in a case like a true intercept how much do you feel like a fighter having a top speed of mach 1.8 vs 2.5 would matter?

Is it really as simple as us getting there X minutes sooner meaning Y more kms farther away, or are there other factors that would matter a lot more?


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## SupersonicMax (14 Sep 2010)

A higher top speed only means that the average speed should be higher than something else with a lower top speed.  Sure, it helps, however, you need to manage your fuel.  Getting there in time is not normally an isssue for various reasons.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (14 Sep 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Getting there in time is not normally an isssue for various reasons.



You mean coming back in one piece is the real issue?


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## SeanNewman (14 Sep 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> A higher top speed only means that the average speed should be higher than something else with a lower top speed.  Sure, it helps, however, you need to manage your fuel.



Admitting my own complete ignorance here, but understanding in peace time we save fuel when required, would the drill not be to go to wide-open-thrust if we were actually intercepting something that was coming to bomb us?


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## dapaterson (14 Sep 2010)

Having enough fuel to return to base (or to another base) is a consideration most pilots would make  (with the notable exception of the Gimli Glider)


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## belka (14 Sep 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Admitting my own complete ignorance here, but understanding in peace time we save fuel when required, would the drill not be to go to wide-open-thrust if we were actually intercepting something that was coming to bomb us?



WOT doesn't help when your target is 2 hours away and you have 15min of fuel left at that power setting. This is assuming that AAR isn't available.


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