# Alternative Snowbird Aircraft (merged)



## time expired

Ref: Airforces Monthly
                      Venga Aerospace ,ofToronto ,has made an offer to lease 18 ex Swiss Air Force
Hawk Mk.66 to the Can. gov.for use by the Snowbirds. The aircraft would have updated state-
of- the-art glass cockpits as part of the deal. Now awaiting a decision by the gov.
Good news or bad I will leave that up to you to decide.
                                  Regards


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## Strike

It certainly is an option that should be investigated.  There are more than a few display teams around the world that don't actually own the aircraft they are flying.


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## gaspasser

What.....gone are the old, used and abused CT 114 Tutors???  
Bummer, the world loves those little guys.  I was once talking to the Chief of Show for the Blue Angels, he basically said that the Snowbirds are best becuase they can do so much in the show box.   :crybaby: end of yet another era.


edited to add: this be sarcasm....I love the old tutors, small and sleek...red and white..remember, they don't fly by themselves... 8)


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## Strike

BYT, nothing's been announced yet.  Don't go starting rumours now.   This is just an offer to lease, not an actual contract.

BTW, I loved flying the Tutor.  It was like driving an MG and was a little rocket in the winter.  Plus, there was always something special about having your instructor sitting next to you ready to pounce if you messed up.


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## geo

(musta been designed by someone who took driver's ed with dual controls)


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## sigpig

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> he basically said that the Snowbirds are best becuase they can do so much in the show box.



That was really noticeable a few years ago when I was watching the Fort Lauderdale Air Show on the beach. The Blue Angels were there and were impressive as individual aircraft with their speed and power but the precision team flying by the Snowbirds was far more interesting to me.

It was very funny when a picture of the Snowbirds appeared in the local paper but they put a picture of one of the acrobatic biplanes in instead. I knew the Tutors were old but....


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## Signalman150

I remember the thrill as a boy of watching the Golden Hawks in their Sabres...a more robust aircraft than the Tutor (read faster and heavier), but they still managed stunts not unlike what the Snowbirds have done these past many years.  I believe part of it can be chalked up to superior pilots.  

Even with the BAE Hawks, I don't think the Snowbirds would disappoint, and could probably keep a similar sized "show-box".  As wonderful as it has been to see the Canadian team in a Canadian designed and built a/c, the fact that these things were in service back in 1966 suggests they are long past due for replacement. 

I just hope that some fool doesn't try and use this, (i.e. "well replacing the Tutor's is  really too much money...) as an excuse to start the yapping again about disbanding the team. The Snowbirds are effective ambassadors for Canada, just attend an airshow in the US and see.

As an aside, I remember being at the Abbotsford Airshow back in 1970 and 1971 when both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds were flying Phantom IIs, (different versions of course).  Impressive, loud and fast...but their four-plane formations, even at high speed didn't take yr breath away like the diminutive Tutors. Hmmmm, if I recall correctly, at the time the Snowbirds weren't even an official team yet; they were still wearing the livery of 2 CFTS.


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## observor 69

See the pretty pictures  
http://www.vengasystems.com/news.html

ARINC and Venga Inspect Swiss Aircraft in Bid to Provide New Wings for Canada’s Snowbirds 

November 7, 2006 
Annapolis, Maryland—ARINC Engineering Services, LLC, and its Canadian partner Venga Aerospace today announced they have started technical discussions with the Swiss Air Force in a bid to provide modern replacement aircraft for Canada’s famed precision military flying team, the Snowbirds.  

In an important step, a team including pilots and engineers from ARINC and Venga has just completed a fact-finding trip to Switzerland. While there, they inspected Hawk trainer aircraft available from the Swiss Air Force, as well as maintenance and modification documents for the planes. 

The Snowbirds currently fly older Tutor trainer aircraft designed in the 1960s. ARINC and Venga have proposed replacing the Tutors with Hawk trainers from the Swiss. Eighteen Hawks would be acquired from the Swiss, their cockpits would be upgraded, and they would be delivered to the Snowbirds under a 20-year lease including a comprehensive maintenance program.

“Our Hawk leasing proposal will not only enable the Snowbirds to fly newer, safer and better-performing aircraft, but at a cost not exceeding their current operating budget,” stated Venga President Hirsh Kwinter. 

The Canadian Forces are familiar with Hawk trainer aircraft, and currently use them to train military pilots. But acquiring brand-new Hawks for the Snowbirds—at a cost of $20 million (USD) per plane—is out of the question considering budget priorities for the Canadian Forces. 

“The 18 Hawk trainer aircraft we are considering have been meticulously maintained by the Swiss,” stated Chris MacIntire, ARINC Engineering Services Senior Director for training programs. “We expect to employ 35-45 people for maintenance and support at the Snowbirds’ home base in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.”

Venga and ARINC have submitted a cost analysis based on a Tutor-to-Hawk comparison, following the Canadian Forces’ Cost Factors Manual. Their results indicate a turnkey lease proposal for 18 Hawks should cost the Snowbirds no more than continuing to maintain the old Tutor planes—and the Snowbird team would benefit greatly. The newer and more capable Hawks offer many operational and safety advantages, including zero-zero ejection seats, newer cockpit avionics, and longer range. 

“ARINC and Venga are quite excited to offer the Canadian Armed Forces a truly cost-effective solution for modernizing the Snowbirds’ fleet. We look forward to a positive response to our leasing proposal when due diligence is completed by all parties,” concluded MacIntire.

Venga Aerospace Systems Inc.(TSX:VAV) is a 20-year-old Canadian public company focused on providing services for civil and defense programs. Through a subsidiary it also markets an advanced line of 3-D graphic products and services. For more information, visit the Venga web site at www.vengasystems.com.

ARINC Incorporated is the world leader in transportation communications and systems engineering. The company develops and operates communications and information processing systems and provides systems engineering and integration solutions to five key industries: airports, aviation, defense, government, and surface transportation. Founded to provide reliable and efficient radio communications for the airlines, ARINC is headquartered in Annapolis, Maryland, and operates key regional offices in London and Singapore, with over 3,200 employees worldwide. ARINC is ISO 9001:2000 certified.

Release: 06-159

Corporate Communications
corpcomm@arinc.com
410-266-4652


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## observor 69

Also http://www.vengasystems.com/snowbirdproposalsummary.pdf


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## FormerHorseGuard

would be great to see the team in newer aircraft. i was at the Hamilton Airshow a number of years ago and the other teams were saying at a staff party that  the Canadians would be amazing to watch in higher performance jets.  I have always believed the Snowbirds should be flying the CF18, take some of the moth balled ones and use those, do not need the latest combat equipment to do the show but would show front line equipment at the shows.
I am wondering if the C17  will make the airshows this summer as training hops around the country  to show them ...cannot wait to see one with the Maple Leaf on the tail


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## IN HOC SIGNO

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> What.....gone are the old, used and abused CT 114 Tutors???
> Bummer, the world loves those little guys.  I was once talking to the Chief of Show for the Blue Angels, he basically said that the Snowbirds are best becuase they can do so much in the show box.   :crybaby: end of yet another era.
> 
> 
> edited to add: this be sarcasm....I love the old tutors, small and sleek...red and white..remember, they don't fly by themselves... 8)



I know I know. When I was a little boy I went to an airshow at RCAF Rockcliffe (where?) and was thoroughly enthralled by the antics of the Golden Hawks flying the Sabre (F 86). alas they are history too... :'(


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## geo

Think it was pointed out that the speed and manouverability of the Tutor, it's rock solid reliability & good manners make it the perfect aerobatic aircraft..... anything bigger anything faster looks great on the ground BUT may be too much plane to put on a good show.


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## vonGarvin

There is a "Golden Hawk" Sabre on display at Zwick's Island in Belleville, ON.  Been there since I was a kid.  I always loved going there, looking up at it in awe.  It's just a beautiful aircraft.  Still, even years later when I saw the snowbirds it was like seeing Elvis!  I was in Trenton for something when I was a young Sea Cadet, doing something.  We were in a room (a bunch of us) when we heard the roar of jets overhead.  Someone shouted out "It's the Snowbirds!"  Like a bunch of lemmings, we ran to the window and stared in amazement to see those 9 little jets flying in formation over the base.  A cheer went up from all of us when they passed right over our little building.
Years later, at the 1998 (?) airshow in London, ON, I was near the end of the runway with the rest of the "cheapos" who didn't want to pay admission.  When the Snowbirds came overhead, nobody said a word and we all craned our necks and watched.  We were lucky in that we could see those birds that weren't directly involved in stunts buzzing around to the north of the airfield at low levels.  Not only were the little kids' eyes wide open, but every adult as well.  Thrilling to say the least.


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## time expired

Having seem the Red Arrows many times i dont think you will be dissapointed by a Snowbird team
equiped with the Hawk.Its a training aircraft ,very maneavable,faster then the CT 114 but not so fast
that you can go for a hot dog between maneavers.IMHO the Red Arrows are still the best I have
ever seen,I saw the Golden Hawks and they were fantastic,but that was a different era they flew
very low and very close to the crowd,all things that are no longer allowed in our risk adverse
society.A couple of years ago I saw the Blue Angels,they impressed in the tightness of their formation
but they spent a lot of time in the next county reforming for the next pass, and I could really do 
without the Los Vegas showtime pre flight and commentary.
                                        Regards


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## geo

There is no doubt that the Tutor will fly it's last flight & sail into history someday.... it's just a question of when that will happen...  The Hawk's unsolicited proposal appears quite interesting... newer aircraft with upgradd avionics & a cost that is comparable to what we are spending to keep the Tutors going.

Is this the time?


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## observor 69

geo said:
			
		

> There is no doubt that the Tutor will fly it's last flight & sail into history someday.... it's just a question of when that will happen...  The Hawk's unsolicited proposal appears quite interesting... newer aircraft with upgradd avionics & a cost that is comparable to what we are spending to keep the Tutors going.
> 
> Is this the time?



A private company can buy used Hawks from the Swiss air force and make a profit. So what is the logic preventing us from doing it ourselves?
.


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## geo

Same said Company is prepared to do the refurbishing & then provide Mtce....
but, yeah, we can certainly do that... but we haven't - though we know the Tutors are slowly going geriatric.


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## midget-boyd91

Acquire new aircraft and there has to be the training for the snowbird pilots. If the Hawk is taken as a new snowbird aircraft, could this mean there would be a season without the snowbirds performing so that they are able to master the formations/demonstrations/moves?


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## GAP

Replace Snowbird jets 'immediately,' DND told in 2003
MURRAY BREWSTER Canadian Press June 25, 2007 at 4:09 AM EDT
Article Link

OTTAWA — The air force was urged in no uncertain terms four years ago to quickly replace the aging Tutor jets belonging to the prized Snowbird demonstration squadron.

The study by the Defence Department's director of major service delivery procurement warned that the life expectancy of the 1960s-vintage aircraft was 2010, but could be pushed out for another decade if absolutely necessary .

"With each passing year, the technical, safety and financial risk associated with extending the Tutor into its fifth decade and beyond, will escalate," said the review, written in August, 2003. "These risks are significant, however they are not easily quantified."

Ideally, the report said, the air force should replace the CT-114s with British-built CT-155 Hawk trainers beginning in 2008, but to meet that deadline, the procurement process should have started years ago.

"Replacing the Tutor is a question of when, not if," the report said.

The 2003 analysis recommended that the Defence Department proceed "immediately."

A complete, uncensored version of the report was obtained by The Canadian Press and follows the death last month of Captain Shawn McCaughey, 31, in a crash in Montana. Investigators have yet to determine the cause of the accident.

In 2002, the former Liberal government promised a $600-million replacement project for the Snowbirds' aircraft, but the money was not scheduled to be spent until 2009. With the war raging in Afghanistan and billions about to be spent on urgent purchases, such as heavy- and medium-lift aircraft as well as battlefield helicopters, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservatives have been silent about the future of the Tutors.
More on link


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## Astrodog

I hope this doesn't go where I think it'll go..


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## FredDaHead

Astrodog said:
			
		

> I hope this doesn't go where I think it'll go..



Oh you know the lieberals will use their own failure to try and harm the Conservatives. Isn't that what they've been doing since PM Harper came in?


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## observor 69

Freddy G said:
			
		

> Oh you know the lieberals will use their own failure to try and harm the Conservatives. Isn't that what they've been doing since PM Harper came in?



Gee I thought it was the other way around. Harper is constantly telling us how the Liberals failed at this failed at that blah blah. 
It is becoming a tired old song. 
How about for a change he tells us what the Harper government can do?


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## volition

Well, your still getting paid...for now ;D


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## Crimmsy

Bumping an old thread, but Finland has announced that it is buying the 18 Hawk 66's that Venga Aerospace was interested in. 

Article Link



> Finnish air force snaps up surplus Hawk trainers
> By Craig Hoyle
> 
> The Finnish air force has signed a deal worth about €40 million ($53.7 million) to acquire 18 secondhand BAE Systems Hawk 66 trainers from the Swiss air force, bringing to an end an almost five-year effort to dispose of the surplus aircraft.
> 
> Finnish defence minister Jyri Hakamies says the aircraft are being obtained for the cost of around two new-build advanced jet trainers, but offer a combined remaining service life of 90,000 flight hours: sufficient for 15 years of use.
> 
> "The purchase allows the service more time to plan its future flight training arrangements and enables co-operation in this field with other European air forces," the defence ministry says. Finland is a member of the planned nine-nation Eurotraining scheme, along with Austria, Belgium, France, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain and Sweden, with the partners eyeing the establishment of a shared pilot training service by around the middle of the next decade.
> 
> The ex-Swiss air force aircraft will join Finland's fleet of 49 Hawk 51/51As, operations of which take place primarily from Kauhava airbase. The newly acquired aircraft feature only minor differences in their avionics, engines and weapons systems, the defence ministry says.
> 
> Other previous potential uses for the surplus aircraft had included a Venga Aerospace Systems proposal to offer the Hawks as replacements for the Canadair CT-114 Tutors flown by the Canadian Forces' Snowbirds display team.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/607845

Plan would keep team's ancient jets in the air until 2020 despite safety worries
Mar 25, 2009
Allan Woods

OTTAWA – A plan to keep Canada's ancient Snowbirds airborne 10 years beyond their lifespan would ignore previous warnings that they should be immediately replaced and could put the lives of the precision pilots at unnecessary risk.
Documents obtained by the Toronto Star show senior defence officials have asked Defence Minister Peter MacKay to approve a plan that would see the CT-114 Tutor jets perform through to 2020.
The officials say that doing so presents "technical risks" but will save a significant amount of money.

But any decision to extend the service of the Tutors would come despite internal military reports, some dating back to 2003, urging that they be replaced "immediately," in the wake of a number of accidents, including the 2007 death of Capt. Shawn McCaughey.
He died when his seat belt malfunctioned while flying upside down at a Montana air show.
A final report on the investigation into his death, which exposed a delay in dealing with the lingering problem of seat-belt malfunctions, has not been completed.

Seven Snowbird pilots have perished in flight since 1972. The planes have flown since 1963 and have performed at North American air shows since 1971.
The safety of the planes – the last one was produced by Canadair in 1966 – is a sore point for the air force, which faces pointed questions each time a Tutor crashes.

It is seeking final approvals for the $116 million it will take to upgrade and maintain the jets.
Without the upgrades, it will be impossible for the Snowbirds to continue the precision and acrobatic flights after the 2010 air show season thanks to obsolete parts and difficulty servicing the fleet.

There is no longer time to replace the Snowbird fleet by 2010 so the upgrades are the only way to keep the planes in the air until either 2015 or 2020, the documents from last fall explain.
Senior air force officials, including Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, the chief of the air staff, told MacKay that purchasing replacement aircraft for 2015 would lessen the technical risks associated with extending the CT-114 beyond that date.

Extending service of the Tutors to 2020 is a "technically challenging" option but it would allow the Canadian Forces to select a plane that could serve double duty with both the air force's pilot training program and the Snowbirds, providing a "significantly lower cost when compared against a new aircraft acquisition."
The estimated cost to upgrade the seat, engine and navigation systems on the Tutors through to 2020 is $116 million, while buying replacement planes in 2015 "in effect increases the long-term life cycle costs of providing air demonstration capability," says the briefing note, obtained under the Access to Information Act.

There is still a risk that the NATO Flying Training Canada program, through which NATO countries send pilots to bases in Moose Jaw, Sask., and Cold Lake, Alta., for jet pilot training, will select replacement aircraft that are "not compatible with the Snowbird mission" in 2020, the briefing note says.
"If this occurs, the (Canadian Forces) would be in the position of having to purchase a unique, stand-alone fleet. ... However, it is anticipated that this risk is low."
No final approval has been granted to the extension yet, said a spokesperson for MacKay, though the documents note a decision is expected before this summer.
On the Snowbirds' website, it says the pilots are "very confident flying the Tutor. It is safe and performs extremely well as a demonstration aircraft."
Former Snowbird lead pilot George Miller agreed that the safety risks that go along with flying the aging planes wouldn't necessarily be greater, noting that the seatbelt system and ejection seats have been much improved in recent years.

What is lamentable is that by the end of the next decade Canada's flagship demonstration team will be flying an obsolete plane that does little to represent the modern air force, he said."We have a great tradition as military officers of having a stiff upper lip and just doing what we're told ... so you can bet that the airplanes will be pristine," said Miller. "But down deep we know darn well it's a shame that we as a western frontline country don't have the wherewithal to represent our nation."

The only other option for the future of the Snowbirds – scrapping the team completely – is out of the question for the military.


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## FormerHorseGuard

Why not just use soem of the mothballed Cf 18s like the US Navy Blue Angels?
Would look like we were using newer equipment and fly  state of the art aircraft for PR and public shows.
Just  my  thoughts


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## Kirkhill

Or perhaps the Snowbirds could be redesignated: " The Canadian Forces Heritage Flight".


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## dapaterson

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> Why not just use soem of the mothballed Cf 18s like the US Navy Blue Angels?
> Would look like we were using newer equipment and fly  state of the art aircraft for PR and public shows.
> Just  my  thoughts



Mothballed CF-18s are mothballed because they had the highest number of flight hours or other reasons not to invest in keeping them flying.  As well, the CF-18 is hardly state-of-the-art - the fundamental design is three decades old.

The slower speed of the Snowbirds is actually a selling point - you can do a lot more over the crowd when you're flying slow, and manage some maneuvers that aren't as impressive at high speed.

Of course, even if we were to disband the CF, we'd keep the Snowbirds and the Ceremonial Guard...


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## aesop081

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> Why not just use soem of the mothballed Cf 18s like the US Navy Blue Angels?



Other than the fact that they are mothballed for a reason, the cost of operating the CF-188 compared to a jet trainer-type aircraft is huge.

Having seen both the Snowbirds and the Blue Angels , the Tutor has the major advantage of being slower and thus keeping the show where it should be : Right in front of the crowd.


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## FormerHorseGuard

Suppose they  could get  some used airframes from the US Navy  cheap and do the F 18 , buy some replacement airframes off ebay , or get  spares for the Tutors from museums?
I worked at the Hamilton Air Show in the 90s , and I got to attend some dinners and after show bar nights. There was some Snow Birds there along with some other country  's team , the other country  said if the Snow Birds had more powerful jets the show they  could would beat  any other team in the world. The pilot siad the show The Birds put on in their aged jets then was great and chnage of plane would make it even more impressive


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## aesop081

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> Suppose they  could get  some used airframes from the US Navy  cheap and do the F 18



It wouldnt change the huge operating costs of flying 11 Hornets. The USN is dealing with issues with continuing to operate "legacy" Hornets ( A and B models) so why would we want to buy more time expired aircrafts.





> The Birds put on in their aged jets then was great and chnage of plane would make it even more impressive



They wouldnt be able to put on the same show with a Hornet.


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## FormerHorseGuard

I do not know anything about the cost of operating the Turtors or the F18s. I just parrotted what  i heard at the airshow. I am know the Blue Angels use the F18 and they  use older frames. Saw it on the Military Channel.
Before I am told to stay in my lanes I have this to say. I would liek to see the SnowBirds keep flying , in newer machines and safer machines. They  do put on a great  low speed show.


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## aesop081

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> I am know the Blue Angels use the F18 and they  use older frames.



I suspect that the BAs will not operate legacy Hornets for very long as the USN is begining to look at getting rid of all A and B - models that are in service. They will likely move to newer C/D models or even E/F models. Even the USAF thunderbirds are trading in the A/B model F-16s for newer C ( block 52 IIRC) models.




> I would liek to see the SnowBirds keep flying ,



Within the AF itself, there is strong debate on that.



> in newer machines and safer machines.



There are better suited machines out there.


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## dapaterson

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> There are better suited machines out there.



I, for one, look forward to the 430 ETAH Demonstration Team replacing 431 AD Sqn.


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## Nfld Sapper

Defence officials want Snowbird jets in air until 2020: report
Last Updated: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 | 12:51 PM ET 
CBC News  

Senior defence officials have asked Defence Minister Peter MacKay to approve a plan to keep the 1960's-era jets used by the Snowbirds in the air until 2020, according to a published report.

The Toronto Star said Wednesday it has obtained documents in which officials acknowledge there are "technical risks" in keeping the CT-114 Tutor jets performing for another 11 years.

However, the officials said the move would save a lot of money, said the report.

The planes have been flying since 1963 and have performed in air shows since 1971.

Military officials have said in the past they don't expect the jets to be replaced any time soon.

In 2002, the officer in charge of purchasing aircraft for the armed forces, said the Tutor could be flown until 2020.

"We can fly the Tutor, safely and effectively, for quite some time as long as perhaps 2020," said Col. Dave Burt, the Canadian Forces director of air requirements.

In 2003, a military study recommended replacing the Tutor jets with the British Aerospace Hawk T1, the plane used by the British demonstration flying team. The Canadian Forces currently uses the Hawk as its advanced training jet at CFB Moose Jaw.

Supporters argue the team is a vital icon of the Canadian Forces, while critics say the $10-million budget could be better spent within the military.

Seven Snowbird pilots have died in flight since 1972, the latest being Capt. Bryan Mitchell, who was killed, along with military photographer Sgt. Charles Senecal, in October 2008 when their jet crashed in a farmer's field near 15 Wing Moose Jaw, an airbase in southwest Saskatchewan.

In May 2007, Capt. Shawn McCaughey died when his seat belt malfunctioned while flying upside down at a Montana air show.

With files from the Canadian Press


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## observor 69

A few years ago I was present at the  "Wings Over Houston Airshow". I found the Snowbirds boring and I couldn't figure out why. My conclusion is "variety", lots and lots of it, is what I find interesting.  Old aircraft, new, ancient , military or civy, home built,  whatever, it is the world of aviation that I love. Static displays, fly pasts, anything old or new in the world of aviation it all adds interst to the event. So for me the Snowbirds have become a none issue, until Canada can present something new/old /different.
Speaking of which I just recalled  HAWK ONE  might just be the ticket!   
Disclaimer: The American crowds at Houston/ Ellington Field loved the Snowbirds.


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## geo

Nothing wrong with the TUTORS in principle.... they are just getting pert long in the tooth.  When parts are scarce & maintenance starts to become a headache, it's time to start thinking about finding a replacement... Hell, I joined in 1970 & I thought that at 38-39 yrs of service - I was old !!!


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## dapaterson

geo said:
			
		

> it's time to start thinking about finding a replacement... Hell, I joined in 1970 & I thought that at 38-39 yrs of service - I was old !!!



No argument here  >


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## aesop081

geo said:
			
		

> When parts are scarce



The suppy of parts is not the issue. The CF has lots of old Tutors around to get parts from. Thats how we manage to replace crash aircraft so quickly. The issue is that everything is old and tired.


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## George Wallace

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> Why not just use soem of the mothballed Cf 18s like the US Navy Blue Angels?
> Would look like we were using newer equipment and fly  state of the art aircraft for PR and public shows.
> Just  my  thoughts



I know it was just a thought, but did you also think that this would probably mean moving the whole unit, from Moose Jaw to Cold Lake where CF 18 maint and infrastructure exist.  This would mean that the Pilots would no longer be drawn from the School cadre of Instructors.  

CF 18s would not be sent to Moose Jaw, as they are not "Training" aircraft.  

Simple solutions really are quite often a lot more complex than one with no experience in the decisions to be made may think.


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## exspy

Cdn Aviator,

You mentioned that the retention of the Snowbirds is a matter of debate within the Air Force.  Can you elaborate on the arguments being used, both pro and con?

Other than the cost, which is probably minimal (my guess), I can't see a reason why there would be an institutional desire to disband them.

Cheers,
Dan.

PS:  For no particular reason I've added a photo of this year's CF-18 demo aircraft.


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## aesop081

exspy said:
			
		

> Other than the cost, which is probably minimal



Quite the contrary, the cost is significant.


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## The Bread Guy

According to the _Prague Daily Monitor_, it may be being considered (shared  in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._):


> The Canadian Royal Air Force (RCAF) has voiced interest in the purchase of nine Czech L-159 light fighters for its aerobatics demonstration team Snowbirds, but the Czech Defence Ministry had not reacted for six months to it and only did so in August, the server Euro.cz writes Monday.
> 
> Ministry spokesman Andrej Cirtek said as the talks were in their initial stage, he could not elaborate.
> 
> The Czech Republic has been trying to sell 47 of the aircraft for years as the Czech military does not need them.
> 
> Canada has set aside an equivalent of two billion crowns for the renewal of Snowbirds. At the beginning it was considering extending the life span of the 35-year-old Canadian-made CT-114 Tutors, but later it came up with the idea of the purchase of L-159s, Euro.cz writes.
> 
> The Canadian authorities wanted to settle the affair by the beginning of the summer, but then they postponed the decision by six months, Euro.cz writes, but despite this, no one from the Czech Republic checked from the spring till August whether the information on Canada's interest was truthful.
> 
> Euro.cz writes that Martin Bartak, former deputy defence minister for strategic planning and now Defence Minister, did not dare or want to discuss the bid during the political turmoil following the March fall of Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek's government.
> 
> It was only in early August that Czech air force attache Jan Sykora in Washington flew to Prague to discuss the affair with Czech authorities.
> 
> Jan Fulik, a newly appointed deputy defence minister, confirmed in the second half of August that the Czech Republic was interested in the deal.
> 
> St.-John Williamson, vice president for business development and sales of Aero Vodochody, aircraft manufacturer, and Mike Mendoza, a special aide to the company's board, then prepared the documents for the talks with Bartak's Canadian opposite number Peter MacKey in Ottawa on September 19.
> 
> "As Canada is dealing with the question of a training plane for its air force, it is possible for the Czech L-159 to seek the bid. The Czech army could use the Canadian cargo planes C-17 for the transport of troops and materiel abroad," Cirtek said.
> 
> "The only thing we can reveal is the fact that the talks were conducted, while no agreements have been concluded," Martin Danko, public relations manager from the firm Penta, Aero's owner, said.
> 
> At first, the Czech military was to buy 72 L-159 Alcas, under a contract signed 1997. The military later said it would only keep 24 of them and the government decided in 2004 that it wanted to sell 47 aircraft.



If you can read Czech, here's the original Euro.cz article - - more also from the Ottawa Citizen and United Press International.

Here's what it looks like:





and here's some info/stats on it from the Czech Armed Forces and Wikipedia.


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## Occam

I hope the instructions come in Czech, too English.  

edit:  Never attempt humour until you've had at least one coffee.


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## WannaBeFlyer

Interesting. Wouldn't they need more than 9 though ?



> I hope the instructions come in Czech, too English.


Reminds me of a Simpson's clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al6ndfn-Bic


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## hawk_man

> *See the pretty pictures   *
> http://www.vengasystems.com/news.html
> 
> ARINC and Venga Inspect Swiss Aircraft in Bid to Provide New Wings for Canada’s Snowbirds
> 
> November 7, 2006
> Annapolis, Maryland—ARINC Engineering Services, LLC, and its Canadian partner Venga Aerospace today announced they have started technical discussions with the Swiss Air Force in a bid to provide modern replacement aircraft for Canada’s famed precision military flying team, the Snowbirds.
> 
> In an important step, a team including pilots and engineers from ARINC and Venga has just completed a fact-finding trip to Switzerland. While there, they inspected Hawk trainer aircraft available from the Swiss Air Force, as well as maintenance and modification documents for the planes.



Hi guys,

Firstly, apologies for ressurecting such an old thread!

I'm new to the forum and am hoping you guys can act as providers of the 'jewel in the crown' for me!  :nod:

I build competition scale models for customers and have been tasked with finding a BAE Hawk that has never been modelled. This was a task I thought was impossible until I caught wind of the previously discussed possible use of the Swiss Hawks for the Snowbird team. I BELIEVE there were pics of the proposed scheme and the highlighted quote above seems to reflect this. My plea is for anyone who may have these pictures from when they were published to re-post them or possibly mail them to me!?

PLEASE PLEASE can you help me deliver what I thought was the impossible  

Kind regards
Mark


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## Ex-Dragoon

hawk_man said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> 
> Firstly, apologies for ressurecting such an old thread!
> 
> I'm new to the forum and am hoping you guys can act as providers of the 'jewel in the crown' for me!  :nod:
> 
> I build competition scale models for customers and have been tasked with finding a BAE Hawk that has never been modelled. This was a task I thought was impossible until I caught wind of the previously discussed possible use of the Swiss Hawks for the Snowbird team. I BELIEVE there were pics of the proposed scheme and the highlighted quote above seems to reflect this. My plea is for anyone who may have these pictures from when they were published to re-post them or possibly mail them to me!?
> 
> PLEASE PLEASE can you help me deliver what I thought was the impossible
> 
> Kind regards
> Mark



There is also talk of the Snowbirds flying these aircraft....
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/89783.0.html


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## thunderchild

A buddy of mine is in Japan and sent me some info on it, Thought it was diffrent and wondered what you may think of it.


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## Michael OLeary

"Let's Buy These Aircraft" - Please read these before submitting your choice.


----------



## aesop081

The Tutor will soldier on. When, one day, the Tutor can no longer fly, neither will the Snowbirds.


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## Jammer

I doubt that.


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## aesop081

Jammer said:
			
		

> I doubt that.



Call me pessimistic but with the size of the air force only going in one direction, it ain't looking good. Every large group i have been around in the AF always pointed at the SB as a cut that needs to be made. One day, those officers will be the generals making the decisions.


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## dapaterson

Well, once the BOeing MMA comes along, we can just repurpose the Auroras for a display sqn...


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## aesop081

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, once the BOeing MMA comes along, we can just repurpose the Auroras for a display sqn...



The first part of your sentence ensures the second one wont happen.


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## dapaterson

Well, once the Boeing MMA _Bobardier Q-400 Maritime Patrol Aircraft with 3 hours of endurance_ comes along, we can just repurpose the Auroras for a display sqn...


Sorry.  Fixed it.

 >


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## George Wallace

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, once the Boeing MMA _Bobardier Q-400 Maritime Patrol Aircraft with 3 hours of endurance_ comes along, we can just repurpose the Auroras for a display sqn...
> 
> 
> Sorry.  Fixed it.
> 
> >









Bobardier ?   ;D


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## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Bobardier ?   ;D




Yep! That will be the new name when _Taliban Jacques, Gilles_ and _Iggy Iffy Icarus_ form a coalition government, the "bomb" part of _Bombardier_ sounds so military, so un-Canadian doesn't it?


----------



## GAP

Apparently they are getting around to replace the jets for around $755M.....I'd quote the article, but........


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## The Bread Guy

GAP said:
			
		

> Apparently they are getting around to replace the jets for around $755M.....I'd quote the article, but........


Now we can  ;D - Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._


> As the Snowbirds fleet appears set to be replaced, a former member of the squadron says it is too early for him to offer an opinion regarding the $755-million price tag for the new planes.
> 
> Documents the Ottawa Citizen obtained through the Access to Information Law indicate Canadian Forces intends to spend $755 million on a replacement fleet for the aging CT-114 Tutor aircraft the 15 Wing-based Snowbirds Squadron uses in its aerobatic flying.
> 
> The Snowbirds are to be replaced by 2020. The Citizen article states the air force is currently examining a range of options.
> 
> In 1995-96, Moose Jaw's Claude Lebel was a captain with the Snowbirds Squadron.
> 
> While Lebel said he knows the Snowbirds are a valuable and beloved organization, which serves to showcase Canada's air force abroad and instill pride in Canadians, he said he would be interested in learning how the government intends to spend money for the squadron before offering an opinion, as well as learning where budget cuts might have to be made in order to allow such funding.
> 
> According to Lebel, any aircraft to replace the Tutor would need to be capable of travelling long distances, as well as have the capacity to conduct aerobatic manoeuvres for which the Snowbirds are noted. He said the Tutor is a well-suited craft for this task.
> 
> While Lebel wasn't willing to offer an opinion regarding the amount of money to be spent on replacing the Snowbirds at this time, he said if the money is available when the time comes to replace the Tutors, he doesn't see why the air force wouldn't want to keep the squadron in the air. He said the Snowbirds certainly hold value for Canadians, after all.
> 
> "Here in Moose Jaw, you can see the pride in the Snowbirds," he said.
> 
> On Friday, the Times-Herald was unable to attain a comment from Canadian Forces pertaining to the replacement fleet funding. The Times-Herald was also unable to attain a comment from the Snowbirds Squadron.


_Moose Jaw Times-Herald_, 18 Aug 12


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## Journeyman

Now _that's_ incisive journalism at its finest   :nod:


> ....a former member of the squadron says it is too early for him to offer an opinion.
> 
> ...he would be interested in learning how the government intends to spend money for the squadron before offering an opinion
> 
> While Lebel wasn't willing to offer an opinion...
> 
> ....the Times-Herald was unable to attain a comment from Canadian Forces
> 
> The Times-Herald was also unable to attain a comment from the Snowbirds Squadron.


Perhaps the headline should read: 
*This just in: Sqn member almost 15 years ago has nothing to say!*
CF confirms it has nothing to say either.


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## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Now _that's_ incisive takeat its finest   :noderhaps the headline should read:
> *This just in: Sqn member almost 15 years ago has nothing to say!*
> CF confirms it has nothing to say either.


This is what j-school calls "localizing a story" - take a national story, and find a local angle to it to make it relevant to readers/viewers/listeners in your particular backyard.

Obviously, there's no guarantee your best local contact will have much to say of import - when they don't and you have to fill spacer/time, that's called "feeding the goat"  ;D


----------



## medicineman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This is what j-school calls "localizing a story" - take a national story, and find a local angle to it to make it relevant to readers/viewers/listeners in your particular backyard.
> 
> Obviously, there's no guarantee your best local contact will have much to say of import - when they don't and you have to fill spacer/time, that's called "feeding the goat"  ;D



I'd have to say that the goat has a malabsorption disorder...there's diarrhea everywhere.

MM


----------



## The Bread Guy

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'd have to say that the goat has a malabsorption disorder...there's diarrhea everywhere.
> 
> MM


In the interests of full disclosure, in another life, I was as guilty as any other small- to medium-market reporter of having to feed the goat.  Ideally, localizing a story makes a big national issue make more sense re:  what it means to people who read your paper/watch or listen to your station.  Your mileage can vary, though.


----------



## Don2wing

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, once the Boeing MMA _Bobardier Q-400 Maritime Patrol Aircraft with 3 hours of endurance_ comes along, we can just repurpose the Auroras for a display sqn...
> 
> 
> Sorry.  Fixed it.
> 
> >


 Hey Dapaterson,
                          The Argus had them all beat but we traded down to the Aurora.  LOL


----------



## skyhigh10

The idea that F18s will replace the snowbirds is nothing short of laughable and obviously a little too optimistic. Costs range 15-20 more than 40 year old tutors ...   Try getting that one by parliament. 

That being said, many would have you believe the slow speed of the jets can be considered a strength.  Perhaps ... 

But I need to be frank,  the blue angels show is nothing short of impressive. Next to them would be the red arrows. Their show is phenomenal. They pace those jets through some remarkable maneuvers. 

When patrol aircraft / SAR helicopters have a tough making it through the procurement process, one can only imagine how the request for 12 or so jets for our air demo team would go over. Apoplectic to say the least. I believe there was a site dedicated 10 years ago for new jets. From what I recall, the idea was shot down pretty quickly . No pun intended.


----------



## Don2wing

Here is what the Indian Air Force is planning for their aerobatic team:



http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-requests-more-hawks-for-aerobatic-display-team-376513/



India requests more Hawks for aerobatic display team 


By:   Craig Hoyle London 

5 hours ago  

Source:



India has formally launched a process to acquire replacements for the Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL)-built Kiran trainers which equip its air force's Surya Kiran aerobatic display team.

UK company BAE Systems on 14 September announced its receipt of a request for proposal from New Delhi for a planned further batch of 20 Hawk advanced jet trainers to re-equip the team. If completed, the deal would follow two previous orders for a combined 123 Mk 132 examples, and push total sales of the single-engined type beyond the 1,000 airframe mark.

BAE Systems


"The aircraft, to be built by HAL in Bengaluru, will fulfill the Indian air force's requirement for its prestigious aerobatic team," says BAE, which adds that the order would also cover its provision of associated "materials and equipment".

Local production of the trainer is already performed in Bengaluru, and BAE says "Hawk trainers already in service with the Indian air force are performing well."

A contract would also represent good news for Rolls-Royce, which supplies the Hawk 132's Adour 871 turbofan engine.


----------



## HB_Pencil

skyhigh10 said:
			
		

> ngth.  Perhaps ...
> 
> But I need to be frank,  the blue angels show is nothing short of impressive. Next to them would be the red arrows. Their show is phenomenal. They pace those jets through some remarkable maneuvers.



Apparently the South Korean black eagles display team with new T-50s is really impressive, better than the Red arrows; they do a lot of different formations and maneuvers with a fairly fast, maneuverable trainer.


----------



## Cecere85

The M-346 would look awesome in the snowbirds colours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQxeiXRoEWM


----------



## Ping Monkey

My personal vote for a potential a Snowbird replacement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUdHAx6gZqg&hd=1

Slick.       And the fuel savings would allow us to have a 30-ship demonstration team!


----------



## PuckChaser

duffman said:
			
		

> My personal vote for a potential a Snowbird replacement:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUdHAx6gZqg&hd=1
> 
> Slick.       And the fuel savings would allow us to have a 30-ship demonstration team!



Could have all the OJT pilots do this while they await training.  8)


----------

