# Ontario Election



## a_majoor (1 Sep 2011)

The Ontario election will be interesting. Ontarians seem to vote for one party Federally and another Provincially, but eight years of the current Provincial Liberals have tanked Ontario's economy and turned the province into a "Have Not" province receiving Federal Equalization payments.

Now on the eve of an election, the McGuinty government does this:

http://toronto-tory.blogspot.com/2011/09/dalton-mcguinty-introduces-secret-tax.html



> *Dalton McGuinty introduces secret tax right before election*
> 
> We all know it's in Dalton McGuinty's nature to raise taxes. And we all know it's in his nature to lie about taxes.
> 
> ...


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## observor 69 (1 Sep 2011)

Ah yes a totally unbiased source.


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## The Bread Guy (1 Sep 2011)

<resource tangent>
Here's a page o' links I've pulled together to keep track of the election (my focus is in my backyard in the north), but there's also some decent predictor/poll tracking links - any suggested add on's appreciated.
</resource tangent>


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## Edward Campbell (1 Sep 2011)

Despite Dalton McWhimpy McGuity's manifest weaknesses the polls say that PC leader Tim Hudak is only running neck and neck ~ possibly because Hudak is a clown who offers bad policy choices, some worse than the Liberals' offerings.

Ontario Tories made a poor choice in 2009, not necessarily in rejecting John Tory but, rather, in selecting a leader who is too far from the Ontario mainstream, the Leslie Frost, John Robarts, Bill Davis Ontario mainstream which still exists. Miller, Petersen, Rae, Harris, Eves, McGuinty and Hudak represent the swings of a pendulum - sometimes (Rae and McGuinty) too far to the left, others (Miller and Hudak) too far to the right. I think Ontarians want to _drift_ back to the safe, comfortable middle, neither Hudak nor McGuinty really wants to be there but McGuinty is, at least, the devil they know.

After eight years tossing McGuinty out should be child's play; that Tim Hudak is having trouble doing that says more about him and the Ontario PC Party _machine_ than it does about Ontario politics.

Maybe, I hope, Hudak can prevail; if so it will be because Ontarians are, properly, sick and tired of Dalton McGuinty, not because Tim Hudak has anything to offer. By the way, I'm a paid up, card carrying Ontario PC Party member and I will vote PC on election day, despite the party's 'leader.'


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## The Bread Guy (1 Sep 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Ontario Tories made a poor choice in 2009, not necessarily in rejecting John Tory but, rather, in selecting a leader who is too far from the Ontario mainstream, the Leslie Frost, John Robarts, Bill Davis Ontario mainstream which still exists .... After eight years tossing McGuinty out should be child's play; that Tim Hudak is having trouble doing that says more about him and the Ontario PC Party _machine_ than it does about Ontario politics.


In fact, some of the party are already starting to at least nibble at their young ....


> Every family has its spats, Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak said Wednesday after former PC premier Ernie Eves ripped the party over what he said was the shabby treatment of long-serving MPP Norm Sterling.
> 
> “It’s tough when you have a contest within the family,” Hudak said at an Etobicoke campaign event.
> 
> ...



The Liberals, meanwhile, are painting the Tories with a broad brush as Tea Party-ists....


> Tim Hudak's campaign is importing their campaign strategy from the right wing extremist Tea Party movement, bringing in strategist Michael Prell.
> 
> Prell, the owner of Sterling Communications, sells himself as a "strategist for the Tea Party Patriots" and lists Hudak campaign manager Mark Spiro as his "best friend and business partner." (Acknowledgements, Underdogma, BenBella Books, 2011)
> 
> ...


Spin check:  saying criticism is "directed at those few individuals who decided that the Tea Party version of Ontario politics would be good in that particular riding" =/= "PCs are becoming "the Tea Party version of Ontario politics" ".

My  :2c: - unless Hudak improves, based on ERC's "devil we know" observation, Liberal minority for Ontario.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Sep 2011)

................and in the last Federal election, everyone was polling a minority CPC or even a minority Lib gov't right up to the final night. That should have told people to quit listening to polls. :

I speak to a broad spectrum of people down here and in the most part, they hate McGuinty and can't wait to toss him out. His Finance Minister, Duncan, has done nothing except throw money around, take credit for projects he opposed and launched nothing but ad hominem attacks on his opponents. No substance or plan. McGuinty's other shining star and trench fighter "Wonder Woman" S. Puppatello has already quit politics and isn't running again. They're out of gas already.

But I only guess, just like the polls...........and I'm about as unbiased and scientific as they are too


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## frank1515 (2 Sep 2011)

I actually have no idea who I'm going to vote for this election... Like Mr. Campbell stated prior, it's either the Devil we know or take a chance on the one we don't know. In any case, it's going to make for an interesting election night.


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## a_majoor (5 Sep 2011)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Ah yes a totally unbiased source.



The Public Accounts document is biased?


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## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2011)

Latest CTV/Globe/CP24/Nanos Poll attached - folks starting to get tired of Dalton + some Hudak mistakes = ~1:4 respondents saying they're not sure who the most trustworthy leader is + ~1:4 respondents saying they're not sure who has the best vision for Ontario...



> .... Ontario Ballot Question: For those parties you would consider voting for provincially, could you please rank your top two current local preferences? (Committed voters only - First Preference)
> 
> The numbers in parentheses denote the change from September 1st, 2011 (n=917).
> *Undecided represents respondents who are not committed voters.
> ...





> _Methodology:  Between September 10th and 11th, 2011, Nanos Research conducted a random telephone survey of 507 Ontarians 18 years and older. A random telephone survey of 507 Ontarians is accurate plus or minus 4.4 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.  For 415 committed voters, the margin of error is accurate plus or minus 4.9 percentage points, 19 times out of 20._


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## a_majoor (15 Sep 2011)

Odd little aside:

A friend of mine is running for the Freedom Party as a protest against the PC Party, which seems incapable of presenting a bold platform or making any sort of principled arguments about anything. (She used to be quite active in the PC Riding association, and has been quite annoyed at how the party has been running things as far back as when John Tory became the leader). Apparently many PC supporters have similar feelings (although have not jumped the fence) and this lack of support will probably only translate to a PC minority government.

Aside 2: The Freedom Party is actually running enough candidates that they could form a majority government if everyone was elected. Not bad for a party which traditionally could only field a handfull of candidates. While I hardly expect this to happen, it is indicative of the growing power of new ideas and parites in the provincial political spectrum. Consider the Saskatchewan Party, or the growth of the Wild Rose Alliance Party in Alberta.


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## X Royal (15 Sep 2011)

I'll be amazed if it's not a minority government with the NDP being the Party that will hold the deciding vote (or influence on the presented policy) by deciding if they side with the Liberals or the PC's on an issue by issue basis.


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## Edward Campbell (15 Sep 2011)

As of today I'm guessing - and it's a WAG (Wild Assed Guess), not even a SWAG (Scientific Wild Assed Guess) - it will be a Liberal minority propped up for four years of big spending on special interests by the NDP.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Sep 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> As of today I'm guessing - and it's a WAG (Wild Assed Guess), not even a SWAG (Scientific Wild Assed Guess) - it will be a Liberal minority propped up for four years of big spending on special interests by the NDP.


Agree with this, at this point (at the WAG level of certainty as well), because voters writ large may be thinking:
1)  (rightly or wrongly) "Hmmmm, isn't this a Mike Harris kinda guy?  I remember hospitals closing.", and
2)  "Better the devil I know."


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## Rifleman62 (15 Sep 2011)

McGuinty has caught on to the Quebec ponzi (well maybe not ponzi) scheme: spend, spend, and more spending as the greedy, I'm alright Jack electorate soak it up. Bingo a have not province gets in deeper, and the ROC (read AB and SK) pay the bills.


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## a_majoor (17 Sep 2011)

Using tax dollars for political advertizing should be made a criminal offence:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/65183002/Taxpayer-Dollars-Funding-Dalton-McGuinty-s-Advertising-Campaign



> *Taxpayers’ Dollars Funding Dalton McGuinty’s Advertising Campaign*
> 
> “We will ban self - promotional government advertising”
> (Dalton McGuinty, 2003 Ontario Liberal Party Platform, Page 15)
> ...


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## Haletown (17 Sep 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> As of today I'm guessing - and it's a WAG (Wild Assed Guess), not even a SWAG (Scientific Wild Assed Guess) - it will be a Liberal minority propped up for four years of big spending on special interests by the NDP.



In that case, we should all start praying for Ontario because that is a recipe to get screwed.

Really, really screwed.


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## Edward Campbell (17 Sep 2011)

Haletown said:
			
		

> In that case, we should all start praying for Ontario because that is a recipe to get screwed.
> 
> Really, really screwed.




Most assuredly; a PC majority is the best outcome; a PC minority, supported by the Liberals is next best; then a Liberal majority; and, finally, the worst possible outcomes are Liberal minority supported by the NDP followed by, the worst of all worlds, a NDP majority and similar variations.

But, today, my worst case guess still stands, because:


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## observor 69 (17 Sep 2011)

Seeing as we are into personal opinions:

NDP Andrea Horwath - this would be a repeat of the last NDP government, not enough talent in the caucus to form a competent government.

Progressive (oxymoron) Conservative Party, Tim Hudak - If such a thing as a truly "progressive" conservative party came along it might attract a lot of Ontario voters. But the Hudak platform is unfortunately regressive.

Liberal McGuinty - Wins by default

My :2c:


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## Edward Campbell (17 Sep 2011)

I agree that Hudak is the a problem.

Ontarians might vote for a right of centre federal party but they crave a _centrist_ provincial government.

I think we, Conservatives, might be doing a lot better right now if we had selected Christine Elliott as leader, but she was too moderate for the hard core, hard right Tory _activist_ base and so we got Hudak. It is the same problem that infects US politics: how can an _extreme_, loyalist party base select a candidate who will appeal to the independents and even a few of the other party's voters?


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## observor 69 (17 Sep 2011)

Oct. 6 election is too close to call

The Ontario election is too close to call after Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak’s rocky campaign start has enabled Liberal Leader Dalton McGuinty to close the gap, a new Toronto Star-Angus Reid poll suggests.

The Conservatives, who held a 20-point lead in an Angus Reid survey in May, now sits at 36 per cent with the Liberals at 32 per cent.

The New Democrats had 26 per cent and the Green Party trailed at 6 per cent.

“I wouldn’t say (the Tories) have plateaued, but they’ve stalled a little bit,” Jaideep Mukerji, managing director at Angus Reid, said Friday.

More at link:
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/provincialelection/article/1055420--oct-6-election-is-too-close-to-call?bn=1


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## Retired AF Guy (17 Sep 2011)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Oct. 6 election is too close to call
> 
> The Ontario election is too close to call after Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak’s rocky campaign start has enabled Liberal Leader Dalton McGuinty to close the gap, a new Toronto Star-Angus Reid poll suggests.
> 
> ...



I think any polls about the Ontario election should be taken with a grain of salt. Here is an open letter from the head of Ipso Reid and his Managing Director saying that some of polls on the Ontario election cannot be trusted and that in fact, some media agencies are using bad polls because the results fits in with their editorial policy. Re-printed under S29 of the Copyright Act.



> Evaluating the Polls: an Open Letter to Ontario’s Journalists
> 
> Wednesday, September 14, 2011
> 
> ...


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## Edward Campbell (26 Sep 2011)

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, is, in my opinion a pretty fair analysis of Ontario's situation - pre and post election:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-election/in-ontario-a-refusal-to-face-the-fiscal-facts/article2179766/


> In Ontario, a refusal to face the fiscal facts
> 
> ADAM RADWANSKI
> From Monday's Globe and Mail
> ...




Dalton McGuinty is, sadly, on the right track even as he is, philosophically wrong:" it is, indeed, politicians' "responsibility .. to consult" the people, but the consultation *must* be honest and responsible. All three 'leaders' (as they style themselves) offer bromides not consultations, they listen only to what they want to hear.

Ontario's (population 13+ million) GDP is about $575 Billion - it ranks somewhere between Switzerland (population 7.8 million, GDP $525+ Billion) and Indonesia (population 238 million, GDP $706 Billion); it is, in other words, a pretty important place, on a par, in both population and GDP, with Pennsylvania in the USA. If Pennsylvania was in a deep financial hole and digging itself in deeper there would be deep concern. In fact, Pennsylvania is about in the middle of the (weak) US pack. But Ontario is not in the middle of the Canadian pack: it is a "have not" province and it is sinking deeper and deeper in debt.

There are legitimate arguments for and against a range of socio-economic policies. I have a pretty firm opinion of my own which is, socially and economically, far from Tim Hudak - I'm well to the "left" of him socially and well "right" of him economically, much farther from McGuinty (in all areas) and nowhere near Andrea Horwath (in any area). But that doesn't mean I'm right, it just means that I pay attention when there is no election.

Like the party leaders, I have considerable faith in Don Drummond's ability to chart a correct course. But I have no faith in any so called 'leader' - not Hudak, not McGuinty and certainly not Horwath - to follow a sensible, economically sound plan. Why not? Because Horwath is, doctrinally, unable to do it and Hudak and McGuyinty - _Tweedledumb_ and _Tweedledumber_ - lack both the brains and guts to do it.


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## a_majoor (28 Sep 2011)

Well, here is one reason to vote for the Freedom Party (heh)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omhp05UolIw&feature=player_embedded


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## a_majoor (1 Oct 2011)

More on McGuinty's record. It is astounding that he isn't being crushed in the polls:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/10/01/david-frum-who’s-won-and-who’s-lost-in-dalton-mcguinty’s-ontario/



> *David Frum: Who’s won and who’s lost in Dalton McGuinty’s Ontario*
> 
> J.P. Moczulski/Reuters
> Watch you don't get run over by McGuinty's bus.
> ...


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## Edward Campbell (1 Oct 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> More on McGuinty's record. It is astounding that he isn't being crushed in the polls:
> 
> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/10/01/david-frum-who’s-won-and-who’s-lost-in-dalton-mcguinty’s-ontario/




He's not being "crushed in the polls" because we, Conservatives, shot ourselves in the foot a couple of years ago when we selected Hudak, who I suspect cannot win a majority, over the moderate Elliott who, almost certainly, in my opinion, could.


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## GAP (1 Oct 2011)

I see the Toronto Star is chirping up for the Libs.....

Liberals best choice for Ontario’s future
Published On Fri Sep 30 2011
Article Link

It’s entirely understandable that after two terms of Dalton McGuinty and his Liberal government, many Ontario voters are looking around for other options. That’s the nature of politics — particularly in difficult times. McGuinty is the voice of experience and has a solid record of improving public services, but no leader emerges after eight years in office without his share of mistakes and a chorus of critics shooting holes in what he’s done and how he’s done it.

Tim Hudak’s Progressive Conservatives and Andrea Horwath’s New Democrats both claim to offer the “change” they feel voters want. While they have worked hard to relate to voters’ insecurities and fears about jobs and rising costs, neither has put forward credible plans that would address those concerns.
More on link


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## Edward Campbell (1 Oct 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> I see the Toronto Star is chirping up for the Libs.....
> 
> Liberals best choice for Ontario’s future
> Published On Fri Sep 30 2011
> ...




Not surprising, given the Atkinson Principles, which are a little more than just "the intellectual foundation on which the Star has operated." See: http://www.atkinsonfoundation.ca/about/founder



> On his death, Atkinson was so determined these principles be maintained that he bequeathed all his shares to the charitable foundation that bears his name. He wanted to be certain that the Star would be run by those "familiar with the doctrines and beliefs which I have promoted in the past" and that publication of The Star would "be conducted for the benefit of the public in the continued frank and full dissemination of news and opinions" and in such a manner as to preserve its role as a great "metropolitan newspaper."
> 
> Faced with a provincial statute which prevented the foundation from holding the shares in the newspaper, Mr. Atkinson’s son, Joseph S. Atkinson, and four other senior managers of the newspaper (Messrs. Campbell, Hindmarsh, Honderich and Thall) formed Torstar Corporation to purchase the assets of the Toronto Star and formed the Voting Trust to hold their controlling interest. They undertook to observe and promote in the newspaper the values and beliefs that J. E. Atkinson promoted in his lifetime. Torstar and the Voting Trust continue to do so with pride and conviction.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Oct 2011)

I still refuse to believe the polls. They are all slanted and partisan. If anything, the liberal, left wing slanted polls that we are being bombarded with, only show the desperation in the McGuinty camp. The grey Globe and the Red Star are simply not to believed by anyone that's serious about politics.

The same things were being said and published prior to, and right up until the polls closed, in May. They were out to lunch, as we well know now.

Ontario will roll the bones on Oct 6, the shaman will read the result, and the majority of the province will be surprised at how wrong things were reported........again.

Personally, I'm thinking a slim majority, but more likely a minority for Hudak. McGuinty will feel cheated, opt for a coalition with the NDP and topple Hudak.

Ontario voters will be pissed at him for wasting our time with another election and give the Tories (maybe with a new leader) a majority.

However my opinion has about as much science and academics behind it as the newspapers and the polls.

YMMV.


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## Edward Campbell (5 Oct 2011)

Well, I am off to vote tomorrow after a truly uninspiring election campaign.  :boring:  I have a credible candidate representing my party so that isn't a problem. But, as I pointed out earlier, in a few weeks, after a new cabinet is sworn, we will have a new _premier_ and a new "first man" in Toronto: Don Drummond.






Don Drummond

Drummond is one of the best financial minds in Canada and he will, I am certain, provide the next government with a workable, but doubtless, painful plan. The most senior civil servants, those advising the premier and all ministers, will line up solidly behind Drummond's plan; some of the media, many politicians and all of the _social activists_ will be equally solidly opposed - that's how we will know it is a good plan.

So I'm happy to vote, knowing that Don Drummond (his plan, anyway) will be running Ontario for the next few years.


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## Haletown (5 Oct 2011)

Glad I am not a rate payer in Ontario.


http://tinyurl.com/3gpq9nh


Only $200k per greenie job.

What a deal.


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## GAP (5 Oct 2011)

I do wish Ontario well ER.....may it not repeat it's errors as Manitoba has done......


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## a_majoor (5 Oct 2011)

You really can't imagine how angry I am.

My standard of living has visibly fallen in the past eight years, as has my neighbours. Ontario has racked up _*$100 billion*_ of new debt in the past eight years, unemployment is rising, GDP is falling and it is a _tight race?_, or even possible for McGuinty to _win_ this election?

The Ontario PC party leadership shoudl be taken out of their comfortable offices and tossed onto the street for running such an insipid campaign and being so mealy mouthed about the issues.

If McGuinty wins I am giving serious consideration to selling the house and moving my family out west; my children don't need the lifelong burden of being slaves to the Ontario Public Service Unions, and neither do I. Staying in Ontario under these conditions is either stupid or insane, and voters who have allowed this to happen can find someone else to pay their taxes and hydro....</rant>


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## Haletown (5 Oct 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> You really can't imagine how angry I am.



Ya, but you are Green, so you can feel really good about yourself . . .  you are making Al Gore rich, David Suzuki happy and a dog named Kyoto satisfied   ;D


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## a_majoor (5 Oct 2011)

You really need to look up my posts on politics again. I realize my views are well hidden, but still......


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## Infanteer (6 Oct 2011)

1 Brigade is always recruiting....


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## Retired AF Guy (6 Oct 2011)

Its showtime!!


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## HavokFour (6 Oct 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> My standard of living has visibly fallen in the past eight years, as has my neighbours.



We're barely making by as is. We _were_ considered slightly above middle class when we moved here from the US 14 years ago, and now we live pay cheque to pay cheque. Food and gas is becoming a serious problem.

I've already discussed it with my family, if McTax wins we may very well be moving west or even back to the States.


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## Retired AF Guy (6 Oct 2011)

Global is saying a Liberal government - it remains to see whether majority or minority.


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## Retired AF Guy (6 Oct 2011)

CBC is also saying Liberal government - time to cry in my beer.


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## cn (6 Oct 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> CBC is also saying Liberal government - time to cry in my beer.



City News Toronto is saying the same...


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## Nemo888 (6 Oct 2011)

Hudak was linked to Mike Harris. Ontarians like health care too much to go through that again. 

Wonder how the NDP did?


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## AJFitzpatrick (6 Oct 2011)

Talk your urban/rural : North/south divides .

Does anyone know when the next gerrymandering :  electoral reapportionment is scheduled


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## HavokFour (7 Oct 2011)

Guess I'm going to have to start looking for a new home.


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## Occam (7 Oct 2011)

Taking my final IPR move to Gatineau is looking better and better all the time.


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## RememberanceDay (7 Oct 2011)

Time to move back to NFLD.


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## Journeyman (7 Oct 2011)

Excellent. Meze, with tzatziki, calamari, souvlaki......


I mean, if we have several more years of the Ontario economy being driven into the ground like the Greeks, we should be able to eat like them, right?

       :


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## ModlrMike (7 Oct 2011)

I give it 18 months max.


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## lethalLemon (7 Oct 2011)

I'm sure most of you know: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ontariovotes2011/story/2011/10/06/ontario-election-results.html



> *Ontario's McGuinty re-elected, but loses majority*
> 'Liberalism is alive and well and living in Ontario,' says Liberal leader
> 
> After being "counted out and written off" Dalton McGuinty's Liberals managed to secure a third straight mandate on Thursday, but fell just shy of a third straight majority.
> ...


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Oct 2011)

> In his victory speech at the Chateau Laurier hotel in Ottawa, McGuinty said the result will allow Ontario to move forward with "an experienced Liberal government."


He's not moving forward anywhere, with anything, or anwhere with anyone. He doesn't have a majority. We'll be back to the polls in a year.

It's not that the liebrals are that good, it's that the PC party is full of useless boobs that can't communicate.


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## vonGarvin (7 Oct 2011)

Looking over to Ontario from New Brunswick, is it possible that Ontario is going through, politically, what Canada did over the past few years?  First the Liberal Majority became a Liberal Minority, with the NDP having the balance of power?





			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Excellent. Meze, with tzatziki, calamari, souvlaki......
> 
> 
> I mean, if we have several more years of the Ontario economy being driven into the ground like the Greeks, we should be able to eat like them, right?
> ...


I'll be in Ontario from time to time to enjoy some excellent Greek food!   :nod:


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## Nemo888 (7 Oct 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> He's not moving forward anywhere, with anything, or anwhere with anyone. He doesn't have a majority. We'll be back to the polls in a year.
> 
> It's not that the liebrals are that good, it's that the PC party is full of useless boobs that can't communicate.



I think many people believe the Conservative party has been hijacked by corporate interests. Basically welfare for the richest and nothing for the rest. NDP almost doubled their seats, that is the mood on the street. Liberals were just seen as better than Hudak, not like they were a good option.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Oct 2011)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I think many people believe the Conservative party has been hijacked by corporate interests. Basically welfare for the richest and nothing for the rest. NDP almost doubled their seats, that is the mood on the street. Liberals were just seen as better than Hudak, not like they were a good option.




I think you are partially right. The big winners, in percentage terms, are the NDP (70% gain in seats vs 50% for the PCs). But the highjack, which I agreed occurred, was not - nor do I believe it was perceived to be - by Bay Street; rather the highjack was by perceived to be by  something akin to the Tea Party. Liberal propaganda worked.

The real highjack took place during the PC leadership campaign. Tim Hudak convinced Tory loyalists that he was a new Mike Harris: clearly he isn't, he can neither connect with voters, as Harris did, nor did he (or his team or the party) have a compelling new idea.

Absent a good idea - which are rare things - Ontarians want _moderation_, risk reduction. They are, actually, remarkably sophisticated voters. They are willing to elect right wingers nationally and municipally when they understand that the fiscal situation finally requires it or when they perceive that the _natural governing party_ needs a long time out or, sometimes, when they understand the division of powers in our system. But the PC Party rejected the moderate, electable leader and chose, as federal Liberals tried to do, a _savior_. This situation, wherein party loyalists - who select leaders - are, broadly, father to the right or left (recognizing how little utility those words have) than the general public who speak at general elections bedevils politics in Canada and the USA (and Australia, too, I think): the loyalists select the people _they_ want, not, necessarily, the people who the people want.

:facepalm:


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## Edward Campbell (7 Oct 2011)

One more thought on the PC campaign:
                          Libs      PCs
Seats:                 53        37

% of the vote:  37.6     35.4

The PC vote was very _inefficient_ - they won big in too many ridings, where they expected to win, and finished second in too many _905 belt_ ridings. The campaign was popular in rural and small town Ontario, the Tory's _traditional_ (and necessary) base but it wasn't popular enough in the suburbs.

It is clear that Ontarians shifted their votes towards the PCs, to the _right_; it ought to be a clear message to McGuinty and it ought to bode well for the PCs. But: If McGuinty is *honest* and *smart* he will propose policies that the real _conservatives_ will be unable to oppose: that's what Ontarians said they wanted and that will, likely drive Hudak _et al_ father to the _right_, to a position McGuinty can characterize as _extreme_, thus giving McGuinty a better hold on the _moderate middle_ - which is where power lies in Ontario.


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## MJP (7 Oct 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> One more thought on the PC campaign:
> Libs      PCs
> Seats:                 53        37
> 
> ...



Those PC numbers mirror MB (except replace Libs with NDP) from their recent provincial election.  Talking about it with friends and what not, it seems there is a bleed out of the usual core supporters.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Oct 2011)

I think the Liberals did shed some core support - most to the NDP but rather a lot to the PCs. The Liberals went down from 42.25% to (about) 37.6% - a drop of nearly 5%; the PCs went from 31.62% to (about) 35.4% - gain of nearly 3%; and the NDP went from 16.77% to (about) 22.7% - a gain of 6%.

But I think that the Ontario NDP received the benefits of the last vestiges of Jack Layton's death and the preceding _Orange Crush_. I continue to believe that Ontarians sent a message to McGuinty: change your ways. I also believe that they want him to spend less in order to reduce the deficit, but I admit that the percentages can be read as showing that Ontario slid down the leftward slope.


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## Old Sweat (7 Oct 2011)

Behind the brave face, the Liberals must be more than a little concerned. They went from land slide territory last time around to minority status. Can you say Paul Martin? They were very fortunate that their vote was well-distributed across the province, which saved their bacon. It wouldn't have taken much of a shift to put their seat count in the mid to upper forties, which would have made an election next year quite probable. The NDP had a nice bounce, but no breakthrough, which was the same as the results in Ontario on 2 May. Ms Horvath and her band are in a good position to haggle; it remains to be seen how the Grits will react. Admittedly McGuinty said there would be no formal deals, but that was before the polls closed. 

As for the scary Tories, almost a 50% increase in seats is nothing to be sniffed at. Agreed that their vote is too concentrated, the candidate here in Leeds-Grenville, which has been conservative territory since 1919, got 60% of the vote and was about 12,000 ahead of the second place finisher.


----------



## Haletown (7 Oct 2011)

Oh boy . . .  a Greenie Liberal dog being wagged by a Red NDP tail.

That should produce a balanced budget !


----------



## Redeye (7 Oct 2011)

Fascinating to again watch the incompentent Ontario PC Party snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Last election they should have been able to run a cardboard cutout against against McGuinty, and the made their stand on religious schools among other things, and that cost them. I didn't watch closely enough to see what Hudak did wrong in detail, although I'm definitely not a fan of him, but I was pretty sure that the election was his to lose. And he managed to.

What I did like, since my CBCHD is from Ontario, is that the only McGuinty ad I saw was a fairly simple "here's my record" add. No negativity, no slagging other parties, just a list of achievements delivered by a guy who comfortably comes off as a Man of the People. That would have probably won a lot of undecided support.


----------



## Journeyman (7 Oct 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Looking over to Ontario from New Brunswick.....I'll be in Ontario from time to time to enjoy some excellent Greek food!


But, like the Greeks, you'll be hoping the Germans also try to bail us out, for the 'schnitzel mit spaetzle'


----------



## Kirkhill (7 Oct 2011)

My take on the election is that it continues to demonstrate the trend found in Federal and BC elections that effectively equates Liberals with power suits and university educated drones.  The Tories continue to hold support amongst the Settlers.  

The NDP may be the one to watch as they continue with their harvesting of the "Victim" vote.  Although they have lost their previous clientele on the prairies as poor farmers became prosperous business owners and land Lords, they are garnering support elsewhere: not just amongst Franco Social Democrats but also, and perhaps more importantly, amongst Natives.

Along with strongly religious families, natives have one of the highest birth rates in Canada and likely will continue to increase in importance as an electoral constituency.  They are already a major player in prairie politics (defined as CBG 38 and 41 territory) and apparently are moving that way in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Ontario as 3 provinces: Kenora, Peterborough and Toronto (and Toronto actually needs to become its own province so it can start raising its own taxes).


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Oct 2011)

Oh joy, the kind of record we DON'T want to break for these sorts of things - shared with the usual disclaimer ....


> *Voter turnout in Thursday’s Ontario election dropped to a record low, with only 49.2 per cent of eligible voters going to the polls.* The previous low record was 52.8 per cent, set in 2007.
> 
> There had been some optimism ahead of the election that voter turnout would be good, after a reasonably high turnout in advance polls.
> 
> According to preliminary figures, almost 625,000 people cast their votes in advance, an increase of about 175,000 compared with 2007 advance polls ....


CBC.ca, 7 Oct 11


----------



## ArmyRick (7 Oct 2011)

Personally I am disgusted that only half of Ontario eligible voters turned out.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Oct 2011)

This from the Australian Electoral Commission intrigued me - highlights mine:


> Voter turnout is a form of political participation. The level of voter turnout can indicate a strong democracy and how representative governments are of the electorate. However, this measure can be difficult to interpret. *Low turnout might represent a weak democratic system or alienation of the electorate from the electoral process. Alternatively, it might represent widespread contentment among voters* (IDEA 2002).
> 
> In Australia *enrolment and voting in state and federal elections is compulsory*, so voter turnout is not necessarily a good measure of progress in our democracy, and it is perhaps more informative to consider the proportion of informal votes cast. *Voter turnout in federal elections has remained at 94% or higher since the 1925 federal election when it was about 91%* (AEC 2010b).
> 
> ...


Source

So, where it's not mandatory, even the Aussies don't show up to provincial or municipal elections.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Oct 2011)

The attached from Sun Media's Ottawa National Bureau-meister David Akin - more here.


----------



## mad dog 2020 (7 Oct 2011)

I vote every time in all elections.  But in some cases I wonder why.  The media makes money on backing what is best for them. In the last election Hudak did not push hard enough on important issues. Not to mention ALL the key unions knew the Dalton gang was the softest touch so teachers, nurses, public servants hedged their bets.  That national colilition of working families was a total crock and a camouflaged liberal weapon. 
So this province can go the way of Greece. Stay tuned.
I foresee a run for Alberta. 
I don't think the average voter has any say.  
It's all money, media and corporate friends. 
Please save us......


----------



## Lowlander (7 Oct 2011)

I'm no expert on this, but with less then 50% voter turn out, dosent that mean that we have to have another election?


----------



## MJP (7 Oct 2011)

Lowlander said:
			
		

> I'm no expert on this, but with less then 50% voter turn out, dosent that mean that we have to have another election?



No there have been quite a few elections that have been decided by less than 50% of the electorate.  It is a worrisome stat though...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Oct 2011)

Hey- shouldn't the NDP and Liberals be harumphing right now about how, since nobody got 50% + 1 of the vote, that the result is anti-democratic?  Or that we should have PR?

Oh wait- that only works in a Federal election and only when the Conservatives win, I guess....


----------



## dapaterson (7 Oct 2011)

My impressions:

Tim Hudak entered with a 10% advantage in the poll. He lost this election.

Dalton McGuinty entered with a majority and was reduced to a minority government.  He also lost this election.

The NDP, despite hopeless paens to their deceased federal leader in most major media, remain stubbornly in third place.  They also lost this election.


Edward:  Electoral efficiency is an interesting issue.  Far more interesting would be to have riding made more equal; current Ontario (and Canadian) practice is to over-represent rural areas, and under-represent urban areas.

Provincially, the Tories have yet to make significant inroads into urban areas.  Were urban areas to be treated equally in terms of representation, the Liberals would be in a majority today.

It may be time for an urban leader for the Ontario Conservatives - one who will push to abolish farm markeing boards and who will understand that family farms are photo ops, not drivers of trade policy.  One who will embrace the very conservative notion that Trudeau espoused - that the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation.

Instead, today's Ontario Tories are small town folks pushing to maintain a 1950s ideal that never existed, and thus pushing for increased social regulation.


----------



## a_majoor (7 Oct 2011)

The Liberals and NDP do more "social legislation" to support their social engineering goals than any conservative government, but that trope does not support the "narrative".

The reality is we now have an informal Liberal-NDP coalition (do you really think the Liberals will allow their grip on power to slip now?) and will see our standard of living erode even farther. Since Ontario's debt has exploded to 36% of the size of the Federal debt, with no plans to cut spending, we can look forward to a future similar the the PIIGS.

Have already had that conversation with the wife, will be spending the next few weeks weighing the options (going Okie, going Galt or standing and fighting).


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Oct 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My impressions:
> 
> Tim Hudak entered with a 10% advantage in the poll. He lost this election.
> 
> ...




I agree that rural areas are, in some cases grossly over-represented, but, I think (and the research necessary to 'know' is a bit more than I am willing to do right now) that it is suburban areas that are most under-represented. See: *Federal Electoral Districts – Representation Order of 2003*; a quick glance says that, in all of Canada, suburban Brampton West, Vaughn and Bramalea–Gore–Malton (at 170,422, 154,206 and 128,430 residents, respectively) are the biggest "losers" in _rep by pop_ while, in BC, for example, urban Vancouver Centre is smaller than either suburban Abbotsford, Nanaimo–Cowichan or West Vancouver–Sunshine Coast–Sea to Sky Country.

There was, and maybe still is a tacit acknowledgement that remote ridings like Nunavut and Algoma–Manitoulin–Kapuskasing were/are a little harder to 'manage,' based on sheer geography than, say, urban Trinity Spadina, but that fails to account for the fact that rural Peace River has a higher population than urban Edmonton Centre.


----------



## cn (8 Oct 2011)

mad dog 2020 said:
			
		

> I vote every time in all elections.  But in some cases I wonder why.  The media makes money on backing what is best for them. In the last election Hudak did not push hard enough on important issues. Not to mention ALL the key unions knew the Dalton gang was the softest touch so teachers, nurses, public servants hedged their bets.  That national colilition of working families was a total crock and a camouflaged liberal weapon.
> So this province can go the way of Greece. Stay tuned.
> I foresee a run for Alberta.
> I don't think the average voter has any say.
> ...



Everyone has the same say.  Everybody (eligible) gets one vote. Every vote is counted.

The above is the attitude of the other 51.8% of the population that did not come out to exercise their voice. Maybe there would have been a far different outcome if they didn't share that belief.  

I can't stand comments such as: "I'm not gonna vote, it's not like it will make a difference..."  :facepalm:


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Oct 2011)

ColdNorth said:
			
		

> I can't stand comments such as: "I'm not gonna vote, it's not like it will make a difference..."  :facepalm:


A reminder to such people, to slightly edit a parody motivational poster slogan:
No single raindrop believes it is to blame for can create the flood.


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Oct 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Well, I am off to vote tomorrow after a truly uninspiring election campaign.  :boring:  I have a credible candidate representing my party so that isn't a problem. But, as I pointed out earlier, in a few weeks, after a new cabinet is sworn, we will have a new _premier_ and a new "first man" in Toronto: Don Drummond.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Jeffrey Simpson finally gets it, in this column, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

(My *emphasis* added)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/needed-the-political-will-to-subtract/article2194569/


> Needed: the political will to subtract
> 
> JEFFREY SIMPSON
> From Saturday's Globe and Mail
> ...




As much as it pains Simpson he, finally, acknowledges that Dalton McGuinty is big spending, high taxing Liberal of the failed Trudeau school. National governments - Conservative and Liberal - have, almost, wrung the last of Trudeau's economic vandalism out of our system; Ontario must, but in less time, do the same.


----------



## ModlrMike (8 Oct 2011)

Where Simpson misses the point is that Ontario has a minority government where federally the Conservatives have a majority. The Torries are in a much better position to make changes through elimination of smaller programmes than the McGuinty is as they do not need the support of the NDP to retain power. McGuinty's biggest challenge will be to defund the special interest programmes without raising the ire of the NDP.


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Oct 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Where Simpson misses the point is that Ontario has a minority government where federally the Conservatives have a majority. The Torries are in a much better position to make changes through elimination of smaller programmes than the McGuinty is as they do not need the support of the NDP to retain power. McGuinty's biggest challenge will be to defund the special interest programmes without raising the ire of the NDP.




At the risk of repeating myself: If McGuinty is smart he will offer _solutions_ that should appeal to the PCs. It's a win/win for him. If the PCs support his _conservative_ proposals he stays in power, if they oppose he can paint them, again, but with some justification, as _Tea Party_ types who oppose everything, even _conservative_ proposals, just for the sake of opposing.


----------



## ModlrMike (8 Oct 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> If McGuinty is smart...



How likely is that?  ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Oct 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Where Simpson misses the point is that Ontario has a minority government where federally the Conservatives have a majority. The Torries are in a much better position to make changes through elimination of smaller programmes than the McGuinty is as they do not need the support of the NDP to retain power. McGuinty's biggest challenge will be to defund the special interest programmes without raising the ire of the NDP.



Why would McGuinty defund special interests? He's built a career on either funding them or creating them.


----------



## ModlrMike (8 Oct 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Why would McGuinty defund special interests? He's built a career on either funding them or creating them.



Exactly my point, but trimming excess and concentrating on the core functions of government is the only way to get back on track.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Oct 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Exactly my point, but trimming excess and concentrating on the core functions of government is the only way to get back on track.



He has absolutely no interest in triming anything. Unless it's to gather more funds to further his socialist agenda. Decreasing the deficit is the furthest thing from his mind.


----------



## Nemo888 (8 Oct 2011)

A minority governments paralysis usually keeps them from making any meaningful decisions, especially in these partisan times. This is good news/bad news. With the G20 stimulus over and the second great depression making a comeback a paralyzed government is good to the degree they are incompetent.


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## a_majoor (9 Oct 2011)

A PC opposition is almost irrelevant; the Liberal/NDP collective is now facing a more formidable opponent: the Bond Rating agencies.

McGuinty's spending is out of control to the extent of a projected  $16 billion deficit for this year alone, and has doubled the Provincial debt to $200 billion in his eight years in office. When the rating agencies start slashing Ontario's bond rating to match the PIIGS, we will be in real trouble; the only solution the Liberals and NDP know is to raise taxes, crushing the economy and collapsing revenues as labour and capital flee to Saskatchewan and Alberta. This naturally makes the rating agencies cut again; only the George Soros and Warren Buffets of the world can comfortably buy billions of "CCC" grade Ontario bonds and collect the 9% interest (that _we_ will be paying).

So taxpayers can now choose from four memes:

1.Go Okie (to Sask and ALB, or maybe Texas)

2.Go Galt (stop buying and producing to choke off the revenue streams now. Victory gardens and rain barrels are good investments for the next four years)

3. Stand and fight (a popular meme in the US is to place stickers on gas pumps and grocery stores explaining the high prices are courtesy of Obama; the same stickers with the name McGuinty can be used here)

4. Do a TEA Party like movement ot take over the Ontario PC party rising association by riding association and get people who are willing to explain the problem (out of control spending) and the solution (spending cuts with everything on the table) publicly and openly.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Oct 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> ...
> ... explain the problem (out of control spending) and the solution (spending cuts with everything on the table) publicly and openly.




Which is precisely what Don Drummond will do when he reports to the Gov't of Ontario. Further, he will explain _how_ to cut, without a politically unacceptable "slash and burn" regime, _why_ deep, severe cuts can be managed and even, in the medium term, benefit most Ontarians, and _when_ the cuts, especially the most politically painful ones, need to be made (hint: soon, day after tomorrow, so that the most painful cuts will have lost their sting before the next (2015) election).


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Oct 2011)

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_ is an interesting take (speculation?) on why the Liberals ended up in minority territory:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Anti+turbine+forces+turned+election+tide/5524661/story.html


> Anti-turbine forces turned election tide
> *Liberals lost 10 seats targeted by coalition group Wind Concerns Ontario*
> 
> By Don Butler, Ottawa Citizen
> ...




Things that make you go


----------



## Fishbone Jones (9 Oct 2011)

So I wonder how long it'll be before McGuinty trys bribe someone from the NDP or PC to cross the floor and give them a majority. 

That or put someone from the Opposition in as Speaker to even the floor at 53 all, knowing when it comes to a tie breaker, the Speaker, no matter the party stripe _usually _ sides with the government.


----------



## a_majoor (22 Nov 2011)

While Ontarians may have buyers remorse now, it will be a long time before the electorate and opposition parties are ready to take on the Public Sector Unions again:

http://russ-campbell.blogspot.com/2011/11/o-ntarios-liberal-minority-parliament.html



> *Hudak ready to pull plug on McGuinty’s government?*
> 
> Ontario’s Lib­eral mi­nor­ity Par­lia­ment is hardly set­tled in and al­ready Pro­gres­sive Con­ser­v­a­tive leader Tim Hu­dak is threat­en­ing to pull the plug on them. Ap­par­ently, Dal­ton McGuinty “shot down” Mr. Hu­dak’s ideas for a pub­lic-sec­tor wage freeze and a re­formed ap­pren­tice­ship sys­tem, and this trig­gered the threat and a fundrais­ing let­ter to PC sup­port­ers call­ing for sup­port.
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (27 Nov 2011)

The average lenght of time for a minority government is 18 months? That will seem like a very long time indeed....

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1093088--cohn-mcguinty-will-pay-a-price-for-minority-missteps



> Cohn: McGuinty will pay a price for minority missteps
> Published On Sat Nov 26 2011
> 
> Dalton McGuinty is unaccustomed to defeat. The Premier hasn’t lost an important vote in the Legislature since 2003.
> ...



When the "Red Star" paints the picture so starkly and accuratly (yes Virginia, Public Sector Unions are part of the problem in Ontario), then you know Dalton McGuinty is in trouble.


----------



## a_majoor (22 Dec 2011)

Elections do have consequences:

http://toronto-tory.blogspot.com/2011/12/union-bosses-block-job-creation-in.html



> *Union bosses block job creation in Ontario*
> The Windsor Star's Chris Vander Doelen asks a very important question in this morning's paper:
> 
> If you could quickly produce good new jobs for a third of Ontario’s 550,000 officially unemployed, would you change a minor rule or two to do it?
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (23 Dec 2011)

The PCPO needs a bit of help finding its voice. Luckily, the Internet allows you to rediscover all things, so for your reading pleasure:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/57099326/Common-Sense-Revolution
http://justinsamlal.wordpress.com/the-common-sense-revolution/
http://www.danieldickin.ca/2011/12/common-sense-revolution.html

(Three different sites in case the link gets broken).

Given the precarious position the Liberal government is in today, I would suggest anyone interested in change look here for inspiration (and hope; after all, this is the platform which pulled the Ontario economy around after the Rae disaster and ended up increasing government revenues by $20 billion despite drastic Federal funding cutbacks to the province.) Of course the problem is much bigger today (over $100 billion in debt and an estimated deficit of $16 billion this year), so dramatic steps will have to be taken soon.


----------



## a_majoor (6 Jan 2012)

Interesting to see how this will turn out. With high unemployment, a huge debt and an additional $16 billion deficit on the way for this year, it is hard to imagine any sane person not taking the Drummond report seriously and implementing the recommendations. Will the Liberals stall? I agree with the blogger; yes they will. Will this be enough to trigger an election or parliamentary revolt? Maybe, but it is hard to see any workable means of getting to where we need to go without an outright majority government:

http://clownatmidnight.blogspot.com/2012/01/no-way-out.html



> *No Way Out*
> 
> Don Drummond is on track to becoming my new favourite person. Not just because he has the Liberals in a bind with his upcoming report, which we got a sneak preview of today, but also because his weighing in signals that a time of change is at hand for the entire province of Ontario.
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (20 Jan 2012)

People I know connected to the PCPO are frustrated with the current Party leadership (the back room leadership much more than Tim Hudak, although he is in for a certain amount of criticism as well). The main complaint is the Party's apparatus isn't coupled to a clear set of goals and direction (sounds familiar).

Here is a little reminder of a past set of goals and directions; the contrast between then and now is pretty stark:

http://russ-campbell.blogspot.com/2012/01/golden-years-of-mike-harris.html



> *The golden years of Mike Harris*
> 
> As I consider the mess in which Ontario now finds itself—bloated, ineffective government; out-of-control deficits; dependant on federal hand-outs—I find it somewhat comforting to recall the, by comparison, golden years Ontario enjoyed under then Progressive Conservative Premier Mike Harris.
> Those deluded progressives who defend and justify Premier Dalton McGuinty’s government record like to remind Ontario residents of the Mike Harris era. But, to hear them tell it, those were dark days filled with labour strife and cuts to the education and health care sectors.
> ...



Revisionist historians can run in circles, but the job figures and a $20 billion increase in provincial revenues really speaks for itself. (and before anyone begins again, please explain by what economic theory selling government assets creates private sector jobs, or for that matter, kindly enumerate $20 billion dollars worth of asset sales). In the mean time, the PCPO remains afraid to embrace the legacy of Mike Harris and the Common Sense Revolution, and so will continue to underwhelm the voters with the "me too" agenda.


----------



## Infanteer (21 Jan 2012)

The guy talks of Golden Years, but doesn't give anything to back up his claims.  If you're going to call the other side out on its claims, you should probably put some effort into showing the numbers.


----------



## a_majoor (21 Jan 2012)

I have several posts upthread and in other threads which outline the numbers, but a quick summary:

Between 1995 and 2002 Harris increased health care spending by $6 billion. (Source: Ontario Ministry of Finance website)
Between 1995 and 2002 Ontario government revenue increased by $16 billion (a 50% increase) (Source: Ontario Ministry of Finance website)
By 1998, over 300,000 private sector jobs were created 
Harris also turned Bob Rae’s $8 billion deficit into a surplus by 1999 and produced three balanced budgets.

So the record is pretty unambiguous (although I had been quoting a different set of numbers to get the initial $20 billion figure, now that I have the Ministry of Finance websitefigure I don't think I need to worry about "biased" figures anymore).


----------



## Fishbone Jones (21 Jan 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I have several posts upthread and in other threads which outline the numbers, but a quick summary:
> 
> Between 1995 and 2002 Harris increased health care spending by $6 billion. (Source: Ontario Ministry of Finance website)
> Between 1995 and 2002 Ontario government revenue increased by $16 billion (a 50% increase) (Source: Ontario Ministry of Finance website)
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (22 Jan 2012)

While the post is interesting in that it identifies with some of the issues the PCPO is contending with (and I have talked to enough members, and also know some people who actually split and joined the Freedom Party in frustration [although from a practical point of view, this isn't what I would think of as a productive COA]), I am not as confident as the poster that the PCPO is willing to take up the challenge. The election of a new Party President might do the trick, but my "frustrated" contacts suggest the entire power structure lost its way with Ernie Eves and never really got back on track:

http://clownatmidnight.blogspot.com/2012/01/time-for-another-thoughtful-post.html



> *Time For Another Thoughtful Post*
> Do we want to fix Ontario, or do we just want to get back into government?
> 
> I pay a lot of attention to the federal Liberals and their trials and tribulations. Because, in case you haven't noticed, the PC Party of Ontario and the federal Liberals have a lot of the same problems.
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 Jan 2012)

> Do we want to fix Ontario, or do we just want to get back into government?




It seems, to me, to be difficult for a political party of movement to do the former, "fix Ontario," without accomplishing the latter, "get back into government." 

Ideological purity is interesting, even entertaining, but I doubt it leads to to the government benches in Queen's Park.


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Jan 2012)

Some useful comments on the painfully slow pace of fiscal action in Ontario in this report which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/adam-radwanski/while-mcguinty-stalls-drummonds-legend-grows/article2313923/


> While McGuinty stalls, Drummond's legend grows
> 
> ADAM RADWANSKI
> 
> ...




My guess is that McGuinty knows that "there is no alternative," as Margaret Thatcher used to say, but to implement Don Drummond's programme, in broad strokes if not in all the fine details, and he also knows that the _coalition_ he has built bought, the one that brought him to and sustained him in power, will scream bue bloody murder when he does it.

My further guess is that the NDP will, of necessity, abandon him and force another provincial general election - one which the Tories might still lose unless they can get a competent, socially _moderate_ but fiscally _conservative_ leader.


----------



## a_majoor (14 Feb 2012)

A further look at the mess we have fallen into in Ontario. The fact that a financial disaster was being created was no surprise even then, and the results should be a surprise to no one now. 

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/02/13/terence-corcoran-keynesian-meltdown/



> *Terence Corcoran: Keynesian meltdown*
> Terence Corcoran  Feb 13, 2012 – 11:07 PM ET | Last Updated: Feb 13, 2012 11:19 PM ET
> 
> How Ontario’s ‘stimulus’ spending led to disaster
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (20 Feb 2012)

Something tells me the most likely outcome of the Drummond report is a Liberal/NDP coalition. For the Liberals, the Drummond report is a repudiation of almost everything they have stood for and done over the last eight years, and only offers pain to the coalition of organizations who support the Liberal government (Working Families anyone?). For the NDP, this is a chance to get the leys to the treasury, since neither they nor Dalton seem to believe the issue is spending, all they have to do is tax ore and tax harder. In this regard, the two parties are pretty much united.

The PCPO is in a rough state, they are starting the process to rebuild their internal structures and have a leader who is not particularly popular or inspiring; nor have they shhown a great deal of spine when it comes to dealing with the Liberals or their various hangers on. They cannot take down the Liberals on their own, and I doubt the NDP is willing to go in with the PCPO to take down the government when an inticeing alternative is in reach:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/19/a-recipe-for-political-dynamite



> *A recipe for political dynamite*
> 
> BY CHRISTINA BLIZZARD	 ,QMI AGENCY
> FIRST POSTED: SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2012 06:31 PM EST | UPDATED: SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2012 08:05 PM EST
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (22 Feb 2012)

The Drummond report is destined to gather dust, (or will until the Bond ratig agencies come and turn Preimier McGuinty into Premier Downgrade):

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/02/22/ontario-keen-to-kill-more-time-before-taking-action-on-swollen-deficit/



> *Ontario keen to kill more time before taking action on swollen deficit*
> Kelly McParland  Feb 22, 2012 – 11:42 AM ET | Last Updated: Feb 22, 2012 11:51 AM ET
> 
> Peter J. Thompson/National Post
> ...


----------



## larry Strong (23 Feb 2012)

As I stated on a different thread, Premier Dad does not have the backbone to make hard decisions.


----------



## a_majoor (23 Feb 2012)

Dalton could learn a thing or two from Governor Christie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fx125cJgQs&feature=player_embedded

GOVERNOR CHRISTIE: And to the naysayers, I say this. And I know it's hard to believe that there may be some naysayers out there. I'll say this: We have been down the road of high taxation. It didn't work. The result was high unemployment, higher taxes, low growth. The result was families leaving New Jersey.

The old way was a dead end for New Jersey. High taxes, excessive spending left us stranded in a world of declining growth, declining prospects and a diminished ability to compete as a state.

We have left the dark times of lost jobs worsened by overtaxing, overspending and overborrowing. So, please be clear on this point -- we will not return to the path of higher taxes under any circumstances. Not on my watch.

(edit to add the entire budget speech here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmPkmAwtqZ4&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=SP99826396F00009A7)


----------



## a_majoor (28 Feb 2012)

I like the idea that the Drummond report was designed as a land mine for the incoming government. Lucky for us, Dalton stepped on it...

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/24/no-leadership-show-em-the-door



> *No leadership? Show ’em the door*
> 
> By Megan Harris
> 
> ...


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Feb 2012)

I'm expecting a "Red Book" with an orange cover.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2012)

I've said all along that they didn't expect to get re-elected and staged this to trash the incoming party.

Unfortunately, they did get re-elected and are acting like Bob Rae & the NDP.

Stunned. "What do you mean we won? Shit. What do we do now?"

I expect them to bring down a budget so ludicrous that as a confidence bill, it gets voted down and we're back to the polls. If not that one, it won't be long until they find something else to get themselves fired.

McGuinty and Duncan can't shinny out of their own trap. They have to bail and leave someone else to clean up the disgusting mess that their social engineering agenda has left this once great province.

It's not just the fault of these ponces either, every utopian seeking dreamer that followed these idiots to the polls has just as much responsibility in this.


----------



## a_majoor (28 Feb 2012)

I'm not so sure.

The Provincial NDP has stated there is no problem, we simply don't collect enough revenue. The McGuinty government has reflexively raised taxes and fees throughout their terms in office, so we have two kindred spirits who agree in principle on what the real "solution" is. I'm willing to bet on some sort of informal coalition _and_ the $30 billion deficit and $400 billion debt at the end (with revenues in the tank because the economy is flatlined, and skilled workers and capital leaving in record numbers).

The PCPO has neither the votes to take down the government on its own, nor apparently the spine to take ownership of the Drummond report and say "Outstanding work. We fully endorse this as the best first step to solving Ontario's problems and getting back on our feet". Taking ownership would demonstrate to some voters that there is at least one serious party willing to take steps to deal with the economic crisis before the Bond Rating agencies decide we are "CCC" grade material, or "Selective Default" like Greece.

This is like one of those really bad dreams where no matter how faast you run, you can't seem to get anywhere.


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 Feb 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I'm not so sure.
> 
> The Provincial NDP has stated there is no problem, we simply don't collect enough revenue. The McGuinty government has reflexively raised taxes and fees throughout their terms in office, so we have two kindred spirits who agree in principle on what the real "solution" is. I'm willing to bet on some sort of informal coalition _and_ the $30 billion deficit and $400 billion debt at the end (with revenues in the tank because the economy is flatlined, and skilled workers and capital leaving in record numbers).
> 
> ...




Agreed; now is the time for a competent PCPO leader ...


----------



## observor 69 (29 Feb 2012)

And I thought I followed politics ?
Who is the lady in the photo?


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Feb 2012)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> And I thought I followed politics ?
> Who is the lady in the photo?




Christine Ellioot, Conservative MPP from Whitby-Oshawa, Deputy Leader of the Official Opposition and Critic for Attorney General, Citizenship and Immigration, and Mental Health Reform and the third place finisher in the last Ontario PC leadership race. She is a social moderate/fiscal conservative ~ the sort of leader for which Ontario is ready, as it seems unprepared for social conservative/fiscal moderate Tim Hudak.

Ms Elliott is, by the way, married; you recognize him?


----------



## observor 69 (29 Feb 2012)

Got it E.R.


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Feb 2012)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Got it E.R.




Sorry, BG, couldn't resist the "dig," some of us grow old without ever growing up.


----------



## a_majoor (10 Mar 2012)

I guess there is a “Dalton Report” as well, and he is following the recommendations to the letter:

http://redheartbluesign.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/its-my-money-and-i-want-it-now/



> *It’s my money and I want it now!*
> 
> Ontario’s Liberal Government quietly (very quietly) introduced changes to the way it pays out your provincial Income tax refund.  I only heard about this, not through any government email, advertising or letter but on the news last night..  Here is the article from the Toronto Star on this, http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1140158–income-tax-changes-eliminate-refunds-for-many-ontario-residents.
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Mar 2012)

Here is a _guesstimate_ on the next Ontario budget - which could provoke another general election, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/deep-cuts-expected-in-ontarios-march-27-budget/article2370180/


> Deep cuts expected in Ontario’s March 27 budget
> 
> Toronto— The Canadian Press
> 
> ...




If the Ontario Conservatives had a leader with any brains and/or a pair of balls, and Tim Hudak has neither, they would take ownership of the _Drummond Report_ and promise to implement all of it during their first two budgets.


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Mar 2012)

As expected, McGuinty and Duncan get it exactly back asswards according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/expect-deep-cuts-less-spending-on-roads-in-ontario-budget-duncan-says/article2370180/


> Expect deep cuts, less spending on roads in Ontario budget, Duncan says
> 
> KEITH LESLIE
> 
> ...




Reducing infrastructure maintenance is just plain, 100% stupid; it is a perfect example of being penny-wise and pound foolish.  Ditto increased fees on business ~ it is how you kill jobs in an economy that desperately needs more of them. It is good old fashioned, Trudeau era Liberal stupidity.

Drummond laid out how to cut ~ and he didn't say cut infrastructure repairs or increase fees for business.

It is sad to say, but the cuts *must* be borne, primarily by the poor, the elderly and government workers (schoolteachers, civil servants and so on); they consume the most tax dollars so the savings must come from them. It is poor politics but it is the only acceptable policy.

McGuinty is driving Ontario to ruin because he's a Liberal fool ... whoops, isn't that, Liberal fool, tautology?


----------



## Infanteer (15 Mar 2012)

Isn't Montreal learning about that the hard way right now?


----------



## armyvern (15 Mar 2012)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Isn't Montreal learning about that the hard way right now?



What??!! That would never happen here in the land of bridges, and pieces of them, falling down.  :facepalm:


----------



## Journeyman (15 Mar 2012)

...to say nothing of Hwy 15, with its anti-tank ditch-like pot holes, as one crosses Montreal to get to those collapsing bridges.    :not-again:


----------



## armyvern (15 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ...to say nothing of Hwy 15, with its anti-tank ditch-like pot holes, as one crosses Montreal to get to those collapsing bridges.    :not-again:



You should see the anti-tank ditch that has appeared next to Olympic Stadium this past week.  

I'm just about convinced that the bigger LLF tunnel will follow suit soon --- while I'm travelling through it; I've been sticking to the Pont Victoria instead.  :-X


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Mar 2012)

So we should expect to see 4x4 sales in Ontario rise?


----------



## PuckChaser (16 Mar 2012)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> So we should expect to see 4x4 sales in Ontario rise?



Not with the sales taxes here...  >


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 Mar 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> As expected, McGuinty and Duncan get it exactly back asswards according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/expect-deep-cuts-less-spending-on-roads-in-ontario-budget-duncan-says/article2370180/
> 
> ...




A further report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, explaining why McGuinty/Duncan are wrong to delay infrastructure spending in the forthcoming budget:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-liberals-must-not-abandon-infrastructure/article2377685/


> Ontario Liberals must not abandon infrastructure
> 
> J.C. BOURQUE
> 
> ...




Sadly, the tough choices that McGuinty/Duncan must make have to be made on the backs on the most vulnerable in society (the poor, seniors, etc) and on the backs of their political favourites (teachers) because they consume the largest share of discretionary spending; infrastructure is not discretionary - roads, sewers and power plants are the sinews and arteries of the economy and delaying maintenance and upgrades is a destructive measure that AIMS to delay growth and to kill jobs, all in the name of a failed ideology.


----------



## a_majoor (27 Mar 2012)

Elctions have consequences. For Ontario, I see a pretty grim prognosis; high taxes will drive out business and skilled workers, while self induced labour strife between the McGuinty Liberals and their former union allies will make everything else very...unpleasent.

End result, Ontario's economy goes further underwater as revenues dry up and we go to the polls with something close to the $400 billion dollar debt and $30 billion dollar deficit that had been predicted if the Drummond Report was _not_ implimented.

Whoever is the leader of the PCPO in those dark days had better have a pretty drastic plan:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/27/ontario-budget-andrew-coyne/



> *Andrew Coyne: Ontario budget snubs Drummond in favour of trench warfare with unions*
> 
> Andrew Coyne  Mar 27, 2012 – 7:49 PM ET | Last Updated: Mar 27, 2012 8:00 PM ET
> Tyler Anderson/National Post
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (28 Mar 2012)

The Leader of the Opposition speaks out on the Ontario budget:

http://crux-of-the-matter.com/2012/03/28/tim-hudaks-response-to-the-mcguinty-govt-budget-verbatim/



> *Tim Hudak’s response to the McGuinty gov’t budget verbatim*
> 
> Election Night Oct.6,2011
> Click image for full story.
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (6 Apr 2012)

Elections have consequences part XXXV. If I were the leader of the PCPO I would be gathering a clan of economists to make a Drummond Report II and release it today. This message will have to be broadcast repeatedly so everyone will understand what needs to be done to extricate the province from a $3-400 billion debt and a $30 billion deficit come the end of this term in office. Given the exodus of capital, business and skilled labour spurred on by sharply increasing energy costs, I will bet on the high end of the scale as to the deficit and debt in that time frame:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/04/04/ontarios-power-trip-the-great-electricity-bill-cover-up/



> *Ontario’s Power Trip: The great electricity bill cover-up*
> 
> Special to Financial Post  Apr 4, 2012 – 8:44 PM ET | Last Updated: Apr 5, 2012 7:49 AM ET
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Apr 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Elections have consequences part XXXV. If I were the leader of the PCPO I would be gathering a clan of economists to make a Drummond Report II and release it today. This message will have to be broadcast repeatedly so everyone will understand what needs to be done to extricate the province from a $3-400 billion debt and a $30 billion deficit come the end of this term in office. Given the exodus of capital, business and skilled labour spurred on by sharply increasing energy costs, I will bet on the high end of the scale as to the deficit and debt in that time frame:
> 
> http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/04/04/ontarios-power-trip-the-great-electricity-bill-cover-up/




Actually, Thucydides Drummond I, the existing report, is good enough. If the PCPO had a leader, rather than a cardboard cutout designed to appeal to the lunatic fringe, she would simply say: "Elect me and you get Drummond, all of it, because it's a good plan that shares the pain equitably without sacrificing the essentials of our social safety net or driving business and jobs away from Ontario." But, sadly, the PCPO has Tim Hudak, so my guess is that McGuinty survives. We, fiscal Conservatives, have shot ourselves in the foot by trying to appease the _conservative_ extremists who are, simply, mindlessly slavering for their own kind of 'progressive thought' on social issues.


----------



## a_majoor (6 Apr 2012)

Agree for the most part, but given the huge increase in the debt and deficit I think a new report which is based on the new starting conditions is required. By the end of this term we mey need to see cuts of 20-25% rather than the 17% Drummond recommended. Even if the PCPO dumps Tim Hudak, I'm not sure thare is a potential leader with the spine to carry out Drummond II, much less Drummond I...


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Apr 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Even if the PCPO dumps Tim Hudak, I'm not sure thare is a potential leader with the spine to carry out Drummond II, much less Drummond I...



Mike Harris.


----------



## a_majoor (22 Apr 2012)

Its always interesting to do a comparative anaysis; California is one of the largest and wealthiest States in the US and has enacted simiar policies to the Ontario Liberals (but have been doing so for a longer period of time). The end results are quite telling; substitute Saskatchewan and ALberta for Utah and Texas in the story and we see the future of Ontario laid out...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304444604577340531861056966.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop



> *Joel Kotkin: The Great California Exodus*
> A leading U.S. demographer and 'Truman Democrat' talks about what is driving the middle class out of the Golden State.
> 
> By ALLYSIA FINLEY
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (28 Apr 2012)

Well, I'm sure progressives everywhere are celebrating the inevitable outcome of their project in Ontario. Bob Rae looks like a financial genius compared to McGuinty, and of course the contrast between the Harris government and this one is between day and night. I look forward to hearing the loud chorus of cheering and embracing of the credit downgrade:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/26/rivers-of-red-ink-for-ontario-blizzard



> *Rivers of red ink for Ontario*
> 
> BY CHRISTINA BLIZZARD	 ,QMI AGENCY
> FIRST POSTED: THURSDAY, APRIL 26, 2012 06:44 PM EDT | UPDATED: FRIDAY, APRIL 27, 2012 03:21 PM EDT
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (23 May 2012)

Well the Liberal-NDP accord is working out so well for everyone in Ontario...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/newlywed-liberals-ndp-bicker-over-stalled-ontario-budget-bill/article2441207/



> *Newlywed Liberals, NDP bicker over stalled Ontario budget bill*
> KAREN HOWLETT
> TORONTO— Globe and Mail Update
> Published Wednesday, May. 23, 2012 1:05PM EDT
> ...



The real problem is no one is willing to risk another election (despite the fact it is badly needed), so all kinds of fiddling and posturing will take place instead. Sadly the possible outcome may be to emulate the US Senate, where the Democrat majority has neither proposed nor passed a budget for more than three years (despite the legal requirement to do so). Going rudderless for another term will be just as disasterous for Ontario as the previous two terms, but there seems to be no mechanism to fix this right now.


----------



## a_majoor (2 Jun 2012)

Making Ontario a "Right to Work" province might kick start the economy; we certainly need something to upend the status quo right now:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/05/30/ontario-needs-workers-choice/



> *Ontario needs workers’ choice*
> 
> Special to Financial Post  May 30, 2012 – 7:20 PM ET
> 
> ...


----------



## ModlrMike (2 Jun 2012)

Precisely because it goes against union interests, this measure will never be introduced by the provincial Liberals. They owe far too much of their success to the unions.


----------



## a_majoor (12 Jul 2012)

Now this could also go under the "Democracy in trouble" thread, where unelected and unaccountable people have added $180 million dollars to the burden of Ontarian's debt and delayed a power generating station which was also badly needed. Read the article carefully and ask yourself "who is responsible?"

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/07/12/matt-gurney-ontario-liberals-find-way-to-look-even-worse-on-nixed-power-plant/



> *Matt Gurney: Ontario Liberals find way to look even worse on nixed power plant*
> 
> Matt Gurney  Jul 12, 2012 – 2:32 PM ET | Last Updated: Jul 12, 2012 6:48 PM ET
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (4 Aug 2012)

It now seems that Ontarians have the means to unseat the McGuinty government through a series of byelections. The first one seemed like dirty politics but now we have three(?) seats in play so a series of byelections could change the electoral map. Sadly even the best result will not allow anyone to get a majority, and I can forsee McGuinty extending the informal arrangement with the NDP to continue to have a grip on power and access to the treasury:

http://clownatmidnight.blogspot.ca/2012/08/lasciate-ogni-speranza.html



> *Lasciate Ogni Speranza*
> 
> A long serving MPP quits, throwing the QP rumour mill into overdrive. What could have caused this departure? Divisions within caucus? Leader's office being too controlling? Trouble on the home front, perhaps?
> 
> ...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Sep 2012)

Can we now get rid of that albatross Tim Hudak?   Please??


----------



## a_majoor (7 Sep 2012)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Can we now get rid of that albatross Tim Hudak?   Please??



I'm sure the PCPO will be forming a circular firing squad soon...


----------



## a_majoor (15 Sep 2012)

A look at how the byelections might set the stage for the general election:

http://princearthurherald.com/news/detail/?id=e9c1fa62-7e09-4e2e-9733-7632642de66d



> *Kitchener-Waterloo: a wake-up call for Ontario's parties*
> by Bruce A. Stewart
> 15 September 2012
> 
> ...



Either pary is going to inherit a very bad economic situation, and also have to contend with global forces like a lingering US recession, the EUzone debt crisis and instability across the Middle East and Islamic crescent. What is probably worse is I predict no party will get a clear majority, so instead of rapid action we will get all kinds of jury rigged compromises to get bills passed.


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Oct 2012)

CBC radio is reporting that Premier Dalton McGuinty is resigning as premier/has resigned; he says, according to CBC, that he will stay on a premier until a replacement is selected. Also, CBC says, he as asked LG to prorogue the legislature.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Oct 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> CBC radio is reporting that Premier Dalton McGuinty is resigning as premier/has resigned; he says, according to CBC, that he will stay on a premier until a replacement is selected. Also, CBC says, he as asked LG to prorogue the legislature.



I sure hope so, we desperately need some fiscal conservatives in there. He bought the last election with the gas plant switch, and realized how much he screwed up.


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Oct 2012)

Prorogation puts a stop to current business, including contempt proceedings against Energy Minister Chris Bently.


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Oct 2012)

I wonder if, given the 20,000 'new' documents, the opposition were considering citing Premier McGuiny for contempt, too ...  :nod:


----------



## Haletown (15 Oct 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I wonder if, given the 20,000 'new' documents, the opposition were considering citing Premier McGuiny for contempt, too ...  :nod:



No need . . He has just fallen on his sword and resigned.

There is hope for Ontario. :nod:


----------



## vonGarvin (15 Oct 2012)

I just heard this.  Very interesting times ahead.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2012)

Ah, the risk of running what appears to be "canned" copy at a time like this.....


> .... Among those mentioned as possible Liberal leadership contenders are embattled *Energy Minister Chris Bentley*, Finance Minister Dwight Duncan, Children and Youth Services Minister Eric Hoskins, Health Minister Deb Matthews, Training Colleges and Universities Minister Glen Murray, and party president Yasir Naqvi, the Ottawa Centre MPP.


I'm thinking the guy in yellow may not be up for much leadership running these days, proroguement or not....


----------



## brihard (15 Oct 2012)




----------



## GAP (15 Oct 2012)

I can't believe Glen Murray is in that list.....no, wait...we're talking Ontario Liberals.....he fits right in.....twit incorporated all... :


----------



## Old Sweat (15 Oct 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> I can't believe Glen Murray is in that list.....no, wait...we're talking Ontario Liberals.....he fits right in.....twit incorporated all... :



He made the list.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (15 Oct 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> I can't believe Glen Murray is in that list.....no, wait...we're talking Ontario Liberals.....he fits right in.....twit incorporated all... :



Another knee-dipper that got ran out of town (in Murray's case, literally) and who decided to move to greener pastures and hope no-one would remember their past record.


----------



## Gorgo (15 Oct 2012)

Smell another election coming soon . . . or is it just me?


----------



## The_Falcon (15 Oct 2012)

Fred Herriot said:
			
		

> Smell another election coming soon . . . or is it just me?



Of course


----------



## brihard (15 Oct 2012)

Depends. This is only a proroguation - one, I believe, used appropriately - that will result in a new speech form the throne and consequentially a confidence vote. That's a good thing. We won't go to election unless the opposition somehow all figure they're each independently better positioned to come out of one ahead.


----------



## a_majoor (15 Oct 2012)

Good riddance! Unfortunatly my prediction still stands; there is no party that will be able to get a clear majority, which will make taking corrective measures an almost impossible task:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/10/15/national-post-editorial-board-dalton-mcguinty-successful-politician-failed-leader/



> *National Post Editorial Board: Dalton McGuinty — successful politician, failed leader*
> 
> National Post Editorial Board | Oct 15, 2012 9:35 PM ET | Last Updated: Oct 15, 2012 9:39 PM ET
> More from National Post Editorial Board
> ...


----------



## Journeyman (16 Oct 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> National Post Editorial Board: Dalton McGuinty — successful politician, failed leader
> 
> THE CANADIAN PRESS/Michelle Siu
> ---------------
> ..... Dalton McGuinty .....Canada’s most doctrinaire down-the-line centrist.


I thought Michelle Siu was a photographer -- a quite talented one actually...apparently now labelled "photojournalist." 

I don't believe that knowledge of _f_-stops and shutter-speed translates directly to competent political analysis though.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Oct 2012)

.... on McGuinty leaving:


> “On behalf of the Government of Canada, I would like to thank Premier Dalton McGuinty for his contributions to Ontario and to Canada during his time as leader of the province.
> 
> “Our two governments have worked together to serve Ontarians, from implementing Canada's Economic Action Plan to keeping the auto industry in the province of Ontario, and I salute Mr. McGuinty's many years of dedicated public service.
> 
> “On a personal level, I extend to Mr. McGuinty my very best wishes for all his future endeavours.”


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Oct 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I wonder if, given the 20,000 'new' documents, the opposition were considering citing Premier McGuiny for contempt, too ...  :nod:


Also, maybe this file may be coming to bite harder in the butt than first thought?


----------



## a_majoor (16 Oct 2012)

NP points out that the Premier's true intention is to silence the legislature for up to six months. I hope the few remaining investigative journalists (only at NP and Sunmedia, sadly) and a legion of bloggers keep the LPO's record front and center for the voting public to remember. Time to erase the legacy of failure:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/10/16/scott-stinson-mcguinty-silences-legislature-in-parting-gift-to-his-successor/



> *Scott Stinson: McGuinty silences legislature in parting gift to his successor*
> 
> Scott Stinson | Oct 16, 2012 9:45 AM ET | Last Updated: Oct 16, 2012 10:27 AM ET
> More from Scott Stinson | @scott_stinson
> ...



From NP comments:



> McGuinty's legacy
> 
> 1) Health Registry Scandal cost taxpayers about $1.5billion
> 
> ...


----------



## krustyrl (16 Oct 2012)

This sums it up.....


----------



## Proud_Newfoundlander (16 Oct 2012)

If there was an election I couldnt see any party getting a majority, but i wouldnt be surprised if the Liberals narrowly lost the official opposition spot


----------



## vonGarvin (16 Oct 2012)

From Sun Media:


----------



## ArmyRick (16 Oct 2012)

LOL at "my work here is done"!!!


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Oct 2012)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_


----------



## George Wallace (17 Oct 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_



That about sums it up.  However, the artist left out the flare gun shot to the plane as he ejects.  With his prorogue of the Ontario legislature, he has put all kinds of government programs and projects on hold which I am sure is going to cost the Ontario Taxpayers billions of dollars.  I doubt any premier has the hold on bankrupting a province as much as McGuinty.....but he is following in good footsteps behind Bob Rae.









[Interesting:   Spell Check doesn't recognize "McGuinty".   Surprised it didn't suggest "maggot".]


----------



## a_majoor (18 Oct 2012)

The next election shoudl be fought on energy, and here is a primer for you to get started. It may actually be worth taking the hit and paying cancelation costs to end all the various Liberal "initiaitves" and crony capital deals to get a fresh start:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/10/16/ontario-needs-an-energy-moratorium/



> *Ontario needs an energy moratorium*
> 
> Tom Adams, Special to Financial Post | Oct 16, 2012 9:04 PM ET
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (21 Oct 2012)

The _Twitterverse_ says the Ontario Liberal leadership vote will be during weekend of 25-27 Jan 13.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Nov 2012)

Sadly this report, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_, will not get the attention it deserves because it is too full of numbers and probity issues which are beyond the ken of most Canadians, including most Canadian journalists:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/10/31/terence-corcoran-mcguintys-dark-secrets-revealed/


> McGuinty’s dark secrets revealed
> 
> Terence Corcoran
> 
> ...




It is pretty clear that Premier McGuinty, during an economic crisis, misused the provincial budget to achieve minor partisan political ends. Ontarians ought to be howling at the gates at Queens Park ... but they aren't. Equally, it ought to be clear to Ontarians that we need a new, fiscally and politically responsible government ... but it isn't. It should also be clear that the free spending, anti-business NDP is ill prepared to govern Ontario ... but that isn't obvious to Ontarians, either. Finally it should be clear that the PC Party has a leader who is ready to govern in a fair and responsible manner ... and that isn't clear either, not even to me.


----------



## a_majoor (2 Nov 2012)

In any rational polity, this should result in jail time, but I predict nothing will come out of this and "we" will be paying for years to come:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/11/01/ontarios-power-trip-dalton-mcguinty-power-puppeteer/



> *Ontario’s Power Trip: Dalton McGuinty, power puppeteer*
> 
> Parker Gallant, Special to Financial Post | Nov 1, 2012 9:09 PM ET | Last Updated: Nov 2, 2012 11:40 AM ET
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Nov 2012)

> Glen Murray, MPP for Toronto Centre, announced today that he is a candidate to become the next leader of the Ontario Liberal Party.
> 
> “It’s time for renewal, for our party, our government and for Ontario,” Murray told a packed crowd today at Maple Leaf Gardens, where the new leader will be chosen January 25-26.
> 
> ...


Glen Murray Info-machine, 4 Nov 12


----------



## GAP (5 Nov 2012)

Seeing how Glen Murray got run out of Winnipeg on a rail..... :


----------



## Retired AF Guy (5 Nov 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> Seeing how Glen Murray got run out of Winnipeg on a rail..... :





			
				Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Another knee-dipper that got ran out of town (in Murray's case, literally) and who decided to move to greener pastures and hope no-one would remember their past record.



You must of also been in Winnipeg while Murray was in power?


----------



## GAP (6 Nov 2012)

Oh yeah....we've had a succession of winners for mayor....Murray the most egregious ......


----------



## a_majoor (6 Nov 2012)

He will have lots of competition:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/11/06/scott-stinson-race-to-replace-mcguinty-stuck-in-the-middle-as-candidates-plot-centrist-course/



> *Scott Stinson: Race to replace McGuinty stuck in the middle as candidates plot centrist course*
> 
> Scott Stinson | Nov 6, 2012 2:51 AM ET
> 
> ...



The Liberal candidates must be using  Office 2012's dictionary, since their definitions of "center" and "fiscal responsibility" don't seem to match the ones most people use....


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Nov 2012)

"They" say the next ones to allegedly throw their hats into the ON Liberal leadership ring are....




Sandra Pupatello (former McGuinty cabinet minister - more on her (usual Wikipedia caveats) here




Charles Sousa (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration) - more on him here


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Jan 2013)

Latest Ontario move:  province imposing contracts to August 2014, repealing Bill 115 on ratification:


> Ontario is moving forward with the implementation of collective agreements for all teachers and support staff that meet the province's fiscal targets while protecting the classroom experience and the gains made in education. All new contracts are retroactive to Sept. 1, 2012 and will expire on Aug. 31, 2014.
> 
> Today, Laurel Broten, Minister of Education, approved all 65 locally negotiated and ratified  agreements submitted by school boards prior to the Dec. 31, 2012 deadline set out in the Putting Students First Act.  CUPE has been given until Jan. 14 to ratify 110 local agreements.
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (4 Jan 2013)

The problem here isn't the ideas (most of which are common sense and have been successfully applied in many different times and places), but rather a combination of the political willpower to apply these ideas, and the will of the voters to accept that something radical needs to be done in order to break the cycle of spending, debt and regulatory failure in Ontario.

Of course union front groups like "Working Families", not to mention the hundreds of other special interests that the McGuinty government pandered to over the last decade can be expected to come out and fight to the last taxpayer to keep their perques and privileges gained over the last decade, and the Legacy Media will pull out the tired "hidden agenda" playbook as well:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/01/03/terence-corcoran-ontarios-policy-revolutionary/



> *Terence Corcoran: Ontario’s policy revolutionary*
> 
> Terence Corcoran | Jan 3, 2013 8:26 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 3, 2013 8:43 PM ET
> More from Terence Corcoran | @terencecorcoran
> ...


----------



## kevincanada (5 Jan 2013)

I have to agree, I am happy the premier is done and going out the door.   I thought I take a this opportunity to show the obvious blatant waste with the liberal policies regarding energy.  I work in housing, looking into solar installations and the cost of equipment with training I speculated it would cost $5000 to $7000 for training.  This is on top of existing resources, (tools, vehicles my company already owns).   On the surface it looks worth it and it is if you can get the contracts.  Plus solar is green, it's win win.  Not So...

Most people reading this have likely seen the big bulky solar panel installations while out and about in towns.  i won't go into to many numbers, due to lack of efficiency, those panels are subsidized back to the buyer at 80cents, (now 50cents) per kilowatt.  Power from the grid is 12cents; double it for taxes.  In short it creates a 300% to 500% shortfall or a waste of tax payer money versus simply buying power from the grid.

Good for the consumer/corporation - Bad for Ontario as a whole in the form of taxes.  It's gets worse.  The Americans have a rubber/adhesive style of solar panel system that you just roll out onto the roof fasten and walk away.

- Benefits are less materials, easier installation, less labour costs, less purchasing costs, higher electrical out put.  It exceeds in every single category when compared to the way we are doing solar in Ontario.

Now to top it off, The Americans as per the last time I looked into it being Summer of 2012 are expecting new more efficient solar products to be replacing the design I just described in the near future.

Here we are installing, and subsidizing a solar installation system in Ontario, that is Archaic in comparison to the Americans.  I have to ask the Premier.  Why?


----------



## a_majoor (7 Jan 2013)

Ask rather who benefits from this? 

The person who is getting a MiroFIT payout to have a panel on the roof neither knows nor cares what is actually on the roof (unless they are a solar geek), they love the cheque coming in. The installer gets a nice slice of pie, as do the manufacturers (with the added benefit of not even having to invest in new products in order to compete).

Who loses? The taxpayers.


----------



## kevincanada (8 Jan 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Ask rather who benefits from this?
> 
> The person who is getting a MiroFIT payout to have a panel on the roof neither knows nor cares what is actually on the roof (unless they are a solar geek), they love the cheque coming in. The installer gets a nice slice of pie, as do the manufacturers (with the added benefit of not even having to invest in new products in order to compete).
> 
> Who loses? The taxpayers.



I know who benefits from this.  It was the reason why I was considering the training.  What stop me was looking at it long term.  Would there be work in the years to come?  The answer was no when looking at Ontario debt levels.  I took the educated guess and said the program will be scrapped.

The premier would of known this.  Yet he did it anyway.

Oh well doesn't matter now.  We will likely see a Conservative government and Hudak has already said he going scrap the program if he wins.


----------



## a_majoor (8 Jan 2013)

The Premier knew this and did it anyway because the short term political gain was far higher than the long term economic payoff (and he wasn't about to be stuck with those costs anyway).

Completely dysfunctional plans have been mooted and enacted not because they are not known to work, but because they make great "sound bites" and can be sold to voters. Politicians also know that few people can link causes to effects, so escape the blame for the problems their programs cause.

The various now coming true predictions about Obamacare were echoed in the 1960's against the "Great Society" plan, Medicare and Medicaid, and further back in the past, there was well reasoned opposition to the "New Deal". In every case, politicians were warned the programs would not deliver what was promised, and that the various costs projected were wildly unrealistic, yet the pols went ahead anyway. Who, after all, blamed FDR for extending the Great Depression for another seven years? Few African Americans spit on LBJ's grave for the destruction of African American families, and almost no one pins the stagflation of the 1970's on the spending extravaganza of the Great Society programs. Similarly, who is blaming FDR and LBJ for the coming destruction of American entitlement programs as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid approach bankruptcy?


----------



## a_majoor (18 Jan 2013)

Ontario's home made electrical disaster:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/01/17/ontarios-power-trip-mcguintys-legacy/



> *Ontario’s Power Trip: McGuinty’s legacy*
> 
> Parker Gallant | Jan 17, 2013 8:52 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 17, 2013 9:01 PM ET
> More from Parker Gallant
> ...



Not sure what the fix is, or even if it is fixable in any reasonable time frame. This will hobble any succeeding government, and it will be interesting to see how the finger pointing is handled by the legacy media.


----------



## kevincanada (20 Jan 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The Premier knew this and did it anyway because the short term political gain was far higher than the long term economic payoff
> 
> Completely dysfunctional plans have been mooted and enacted not because they are not known to work, but because they make great "sound bites" and can be sold to voters. Politicians also know that few people can link causes to effects, so escape the blame for the problems their programs cause.
> 
> The various now coming true predictions about Obamacare were echoed in the 1960's against the "Great Society" plan, Medicare and Medicaid, and further back in the past, there was well reasoned opposition to the "New Deal". In every case, politicians were warned the programs would not deliver what was promised, and that the various costs projected were wildly unrealistic, yet the pols went ahead anyway. Who, after all, blamed FDR for extending the Great Depression for another seven years? Few African Americans spit on LBJ's grave for the destruction of African American families, and almost no one pins the stagflation of the 1970's on the spending extravaganza of the Great Society programs. Similarly, who is blaming FDR and LBJ for the coming destruction of American entitlement programs as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid approach bankruptcy?



You have touched a lot of different and complex subjects in the matter of one paragraph.  I will not attempt to be so crazy to address them all.  But instead leave you with two things that maybe of interest regarding these expensive items.

1.  Look at japan medicare, ironically given their financial woes probably the best in the world in both service and cost.

2.  All countries are technically bankrupt.  We could argue "Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid approach bankruptcy?"  We both know if it comes crunch time.  The President will go to congress and say give me money or it will be disaster "xyz" reasoning.  They'll say "approved!" and it'll add to the debt and a slightly higher Debt to GDP ratio.  We do the same thing here in Canada.  Just the way it is. They are always on the verge of some major bankruptcy.

I was about to get a Google data history chart, when i punched it in, Coincidentally the search returned a Warren Buffet article on this exact subject came up dated January 20th, 2013.  He reiterates what I just said.  Everything is Debt to GDP ratio's.  As long as they are in range, they can still afford social security, medicare and medicaid.

The article
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/buffett-us-debt-on-its-own-not-a-problem-2013-01-20


----------



## a_majoor (21 Jan 2013)

The manipulation of the money supply and other economic shenanigans cannot go on forever. The ultimate checksum will happen when investors no longer believe that they will be paid back, and start demanding higher "risk premiums" for government bonds. This will ratchet up interest rates everywhere else.

Now the US government might try to evade this by continuing the charade where the Treasury and the Fed buy and sell bonds from each other, but foreign investors will not be fooled. This will create a condition of flight from US currency, which will be a short term boon for nations like us as hot money flees to hard currencies and investments like Canadian land and resources, while China will also benefit as nations flock there to use Chinese currency as the new reserve currency.

This will be a very messy process, and I suspect the Chinese might not have the ability to manage the reserve currency role (and we will be pooched as well, since Canada simply does not have the ability to absorb the amount of flight currency that will be coming down.)

So right now we are in an artificial equilibrium, something like a person balanced on top of a glass globe. We are OK for now, but move in any direction.....


----------



## a_majoor (26 Jan 2013)

The Liberal legacy in Ontario. Whoever becomes the next leader of the Ontario Liberal Party will inherit this mess (and indeed, since virtually all the candidates to replace McGuinty are Provincial cabinet ministers, they are responsible in a large part for this), and I don't think any one of them has a plan to deal with spending or the will to take on the unions. The unfortunate fact is no other party has the ability to win a majority, nor do I think they really have to will to impliment the sorts of programs needed to reverse course.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/26/matt-gurney-dalton-mcguinty-gets-retirement-ontario-gets-his-debts/



> *Matt Gurney: Dalton McGuinty gets retirement. Ontario gets his debts*
> 
> Matt Gurney | Jan 26, 2013 1:15 AM ET | Last Updated: Jan 25, 2013 5:52 PM ET
> More from Matt Gurney | @mattgurney
> ...


----------



## kevincanada (27 Jan 2013)

That was a good read.  I wonder if we will go to the polls again this year.  Since we now have a non elected premier.  Personally I am a fan of the conservatives.  I like some of what Hudak has said.  Boy some of things he says are just outright crazy too.  I haven't heard a thing from the NDP yet.

I suspect the other parties will find a way to force a election this year.  Some of the good from Hudak is getting out of the private market, dismantling some of Mcguinty programs to create savings along with lowering tax to stimulate more growth.

The bad which I cannot understand is sell the LCBO and let convenience stores sell booze? He claims privatizing the market would be more profitable than the already 100% profits the government takes on alcohol sales.  The beer store released a statement if they have to distribute their products to non centralized locations we will have to raise the cost of beer to cover the extra transportation costs.

Furthermore cigarettes are hidden out of sight to attempt to curve the addiction and negative affects in stores.  But we will stick the next worse legal drug in the people face? lol  ;D

Don't Smoke! Do Drink! lol


----------



## ModlrMike (27 Jan 2013)

They could take a page from when Alberta changed to private liquor stores. The province only got out of the retail side and stayed in the distribution side. The net result was more access certainly, but less long term cost due to salaries, pensions, etc. There was no appreciable increase in the cost of beer/liquor/wine that I remember. If anything, the market is more competitive, and at least on the beer front, opened up to smaller producers.


----------



## larry Strong (27 Jan 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> They could take a page from when Alberta changed to private liquor stores. The province only got out of the retail side and stayed in the distribution side. The net result was more access certainly, but less long term cost due to salaries, pensions, etc. There was no appreciable increase in the cost of beer/liquor/wine that I remember. If anything, the market is more competitive, and at least on the beer front, opened up to smaller producers.



That is very true. Here in Innisfail (pop 8000ish) we used to have one ALCB store, there are now 5 stores with a greatly increased selection and sales all the time.



Larry


----------



## a_majoor (27 Jan 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> That was a good read.  I wonder if we will go to the polls again this year.  Since we now have a non elected premier.  Personally I am a fan of the conservatives.  I like some of what Hudak has said.  Boy some of things he says are just outright crazy too.  I haven't heard a thing from the NDP yet.
> 
> I suspect the other parties will find a way to force a election this year.  Some of the good from Hudak is getting out of the private market, dismantling some of Mcguinty programs to create savings along with lowering tax to stimulate more growth.
> 
> ...



The Premier appointee will do everything possible to avoid an election and stay out of reach of the voters, until such time as the Union movement is pacified anyway (nothing like having a $300 million dollar war machine behind you in an election). I am also fairly certain that the NDP will come on board, since they can extract the most outrageous terms and conditions with every bill in exchange for support while also freeing them from the labour and expense of an election. I might also note that the NDP's money machine in Ontario is pretty low, so they have added incentive to avoid the polls as well:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/27/ontarios-incoming-premier-vows-to-work-with-opposition-avoid-elections/



> *Ontario’s incoming premier vows to work with opposition, avoid elections*
> 
> Ontario’s incoming premier says she will recall the prorogued legislature by Feb. 19 and work with the opposition to avoid a general election.
> 
> ...


----------



## GR66 (28 Jan 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> The bad which I cannot understand is sell the LCBO and let convenience stores sell booze? He claims privatizing the market would be more profitable than the already 100% profits the government takes on alcohol sales.



The profit that the government makes on the sales of alcohol is from the taxes is it not?  I've heard no suggestions that the government would stop collecting taxes (or lower the tax rates) on the sales of alcohol at private outlets so that income for the government should remain.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2013)

GR66 said:
			
		

> The profit that the government makes on the sales of alcohol is from the taxes is it not?


I stand to be corrected, but what about the difference between what the province pays for the liquor, and what it sells it for?  If it's making profit from the sales _over and above_ the taxes collected, then it's the product profit that disappears.


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Jan 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> The bad which I cannot understand is sell the LCBO and let convenience stores sell booze? He claims privatizing the market would be more profitable than the already 100% profits the government takes on alcohol sales.  The beer store released a statement if they have to distribute their products to non centralized locations we will have to raise the cost of beer to cover the extra transportation costs.



The beer store is fear mongering so they can keep the monopoly. Think of all the costs associated with LCBO/Beer stores. Building, wages, power, water, gas, etc etc etc. Transportation is far cheaper than all of those. Its worked everywhere else its been tried, so why is Ontario addicted to more and more government employees?


----------



## Davionn (28 Jan 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> That was a good read.  I wonder if we will go to the polls again this year.  Since we now have a non elected premier.  Personally I am a fan of the conservatives.  I like some of what Hudak has said.  Boy some of things he says are just outright crazy too.  I haven't heard a thing from the NDP yet.
> 
> I suspect the other parties will find a way to force a election this year.  Some of the good from Hudak is getting out of the private market, dismantling some of Mcguinty programs to create savings along with lowering tax to stimulate more growth.
> 
> ...



Kathleen Wynn is an MPP, and therefore was  elected.  The Premier, like the Prime Minister, is _never _ elected except as an MPP.

That said, I have a feeling there will be an early election.  It is a minority government...


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Jan 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I stand to be corrected, but what about the difference between what the province pays for the liquor, and what it sells it for?  If it's making profit from the sales _over and above_ the taxes collected, then it's the product profit that disappears.



I would think that the product profit is more than offset by the amount of taxpayer money required for infrastructure, staff etc. Divesting itself of these responsibilities would be ultimately more profitable. It would be interesting to see what the LCBO operating figures are.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I would think that the product profit is more than offset by the amount of taxpayer money required for infrastructure, staff etc. Divesting itself of these responsibilities would be ultimately more profitable. It would be interesting to see what the LCBO operating figures are.


Unless I'm reading this wrong, according to the attached bits from the 10-11 Annual Report ....
http://www.lcbo.com/aboutlcbo/annual/2010_2011.pdf
.... LCBO transfered ~$1.5 B to Ontario coffers as a dividend over & above the taxes collected.  If I am reading this right (and I stand to be corrected), methinks the private sector would have to sell a whole lot more wine/booze to make up for that kind of revenue loss if the LCBO's retail infrastructure is sold off.


----------



## dapaterson (28 Jan 2013)

Remember, the Beer Store is not a government operation; rather, it's a private company with a monopoly that's oeprated by three larger international brewing companies - none of which is Canadian.

Of course the three big brewers don't want to change - more choice at retail means less sales for their poor quality suds.


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## The_Falcon (28 Jan 2013)

The LCBO does indeed jack up the prices on booze (not including taxes).  They were lambasted by the Ontario AG in 2011 http://blog.paulmckeever.ca/2011/12/05/auditor-generals-report-lcbo-colludes-with-suppliers-to-overcharge-purchasers/  and various Sun Media scribes, have written a few articles about the LCBO's practices.  As the largest single buyer of booze on the planet, they enjoy quite the discount from their various suppliers, and their near monopoly on sales of wine and spirits, enables them to set what ever price they want.


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Jan 2013)

Considering a 60oz bottle of Crown Royal is 20USD in California when in Ontario its near 80CAD, you can bet there is a huge markup.


----------



## kevincanada (1 Feb 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The beer store is fear mongering so they can keep the monopoly. Think of all the costs associated with LCBO/Beer stores. Building, wages, power, water, gas, etc etc etc. Transportation is far cheaper than all of those. Its worked everywhere else its been tried, so why is Ontario addicted to more and more government employees?



True, the beer store wouldn't want to change ergo fear mongering in is in their favour.  Looking locally. my town population is 150,000 there is 3 beer stores.  I'm making up numbers as I go but what does it take to reload 3 stores? a truck? 2 trucks? 1 or 2 days of man power labour.

There has to be over 100 convenience stores here.  No way a couple of guys are going to supply that many stores.  These costs have to absorbed somewhere.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Feb 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> True, the beer store wouldn't want to change ergo fear mongering in is in their favour.  Looking locally. my town population is 150,000 there is 3 beer stores.  I'm making up numbers as I go but what does it take to reload 3 stores? a truck? 2 trucks? 1 or 2 days of man power labour.
> 
> There has to be over 100 convenience stores here.  No way a couple of guys are going to supply that many stores.  These costs have to absorbed somewhere.




Here in Texas (the little part I'm in - each county has its own laws) only a handful of convenience stores stock beer and wine, but almost every large grocery store does.

By the way: just before I left Canada I picked up a bottle of a mass market Australian Chardonnay in the LCBO for about $12.00; just last week I bought the same bottle here in the neighbourhood _WalMart_ grocery market for $5.00. Competition works. Also BTW: both _Walgreens_ and _CVS_, big "drug stores," à la _Shoppers Drug Mart_ sell wine and beer.  :dunno:


----------



## kevincanada (1 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here in Texas (the little part I'm in - each county has its own laws) only a handful of convenience stores stock beer and wine, but almost every large grocery store does.
> 
> By the way: just before I left Canada I picked up a bottle of a mass market Australian Chardonnay in the LCBO for about $12.00; just last week I bought the same bottle here in the neighbourhood _WalMart_ grocery market for $5.00. Competition works. Also BTW: both _Walgreens_ and _CVS_, big "drug stores," à la _Shoppers Drug Mart_ sell wine and beer.  :dunno:



Competition works, but that isn't the problem.  Our high prices in Ontario are due to the government taxes.  Each case of beer has multiple flat taxes and a point of sale tax.  When reading the local papers about it they often do a break down.  It usually comes in to around 50% tax, the other 50% is making, distributing and profits regarding beer.

If the Toronto Sun Newspaper can be trusted it somewhat explains it.
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/04/time-for-lcbo-robbery-to-end

some quick clips from the article
_"A 750-ml bottle of Crown Royal at Outlet Liquor in Buffalo is $17.  In the LCBO it’s $27.95."_ and 
_"...a 750 ml bottle of rye, rum, gin, scotch or vodka starts out costing the LCBO about $5.52..."_ and
_"...There is a $12.72 in LCBO mark-up..."_

$17 in buffalo 12.72 plus 5.52 = $18.24 here

The cost of hooch is somewhat comparable to the USA if we wipe out the Government taxes on it.  At best with competition the cost drops a couple of dollars and the cash strapped province looses A massive amount of income in return for a big fat one time cheque on the sale of the corporation.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Feb 2013)

I have no complaints about sin taxes: we elect the people we do and they do the best they can to find the money to give us what we demand. Taxes on booze is one good way of doing it.

But: while I understand that the LCBO's huge buying power allows it to get wines at bargain prices (giving more "room" for taxes) I am unconvinced that that and the Beer Store's monopoly are, in any meaningful way, good business practices. Warehousing and delivery/distribution are highly competitive businesses which, I am absolutely certain, can be done more efficiently and effectively by competing actors than by one, big, corporate player.


----------



## kevincanada (1 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I have no complaints about sin taxes: we elect the people we do and they do the best they can to find the money to give us what we demand. Taxes on booze is one good way of doing it.
> 
> But: while I understand that the LCBO's huge buying power allows it to get wines at bargain prices (giving more "room" for taxes) I am unconvinced that that and the Beer Store's monopoly are, in any meaningful way, good business practices. Warehousing and delivery/distribution are highly competitive businesses which, I am absolutely certain, can be done more efficiently and effectively by competing actors than by one, big, corporate player.



This actually is not the beef dare I say most people have.  I personally am for selling the LCBO.   The problem is the bold face lies we are told and the end result of those actions.

The leaders are promoting the sale, but they are saying it will be more profitable for the province if the private market takes over and lower the cost of alcoholic beverages.  This is a line of garbage, because the province is the sole recipient of all forms of revenue from those sales.

The leaders are pitching it as lower costs to the consumer and higher revenues.  It is mathematically impossible.  Then with adding alcoholic beverages to retail stores.  It is (moral/health) issue here slap in the face.  People have spent years trying to remove tobacco products from stores and public view.  Retailers are not allowed to advertise tobacco anymore, cigarettes have to be hidden behind the counter.

The reason being is addiction and health problems of cigarettes, Alcohol has similar health issues associated with it, but now it is okay to stick that in the face of the people but not tobacco?  In my eyes it is very hypocritical thing to do.


----------



## a_majoor (1 Feb 2013)

Sorry K; I lived in Alberta when the monopoly ended, and not only did we see a drop in prices and an increase in selection, but the government was raking in about the same revenues as before. Sometimes you really can make it up in volume.

Incidentally, that is why tax cuts work. People who can keep more of what they earn are motivated to earn more. People with more money in their pockets can spend more, save more and invest more. Business can borrow that saved money (or get equity investments) to expand to meet the rising market. Each step *increases* economic activity, resulting in* more * revenues. Arthur Laffer knows this, John F Kennedy and Calvin Coolidge knew this (their tax cuts ushered in the Roaring 20's and the Go Go 60's) and Eastern European nations freed from the Soviet Union adopted flat tax systems to take advantage of this.

Sadly Dalton McGuinty and his cabinet *do not * know this (including Premier Designate Wynne), which explains a lot of what has happened in the last 9 years.


----------



## foresterab (1 Feb 2013)

Same here...privatized liquor stores came into effect in Alberta just when I turned 18 .  

From what I understand the province still controls the import paperwork and distribution rights but actual retail is privatized.  It's why in my town of 10,000 there are 5 liquor stores plus bars with offsales allowing for much greater access to your beverage of choice.  Unfortunately 4 of them are owned by the same corporation who bought out alot of small stores at the start of privatization so price wars are rare.  On the other hand a trip to the city makes for a cheap stop at the Superstore or Costco liquor store.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Feb 2013)

I don't care about money, taxes, etc. I want to be able to walk across the street and get a reasonable product for a reasonable price, without having to go 10 blocks. I want to get it on a holiday because my corner store is open. Or when the wife calls while shopping and asks if I want anything while she's at the supermarket, I can answer a bottle of Irish and a case of beer and she doesn't have to go anywhere else. let alone two more stores for beer and liquor. Unions and monopolies can piss up a rope. The government is there to do the taxpayers bidding.

Governments should not be in the retail business.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Feb 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Governments should not be in the retail business.




*Bingo!**

That's it; that's all there is. Selling liquor is NOT why we have governments. Our, Canadian (federal, provincial and municipal) governments are ALL too big and too intrusive (and therefore a real, measurable threat to liberty and democracy) and too expensive. Government liquor stores are an offshoot of the temperance movement - the thing that led our crazy American cousins to prohibition - the aim was to make liquor inaccessible. 

But it is fundamentally wrong for governments to be in the liquor business; it doesn't matter if they make or lose money on it, it is just plain, 100% wrong.
*


----------



## kevincanada (1 Feb 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Sorry K; I lived in Alberta when the monopoly ended, and not only did we see a drop in prices and an increase in selection, but the government was raking in about the same revenues as before. Sometimes you really can make it up in volume.
> 
> Sadly Dalton McGuinty and his cabinet *do not * know this (including Premier Designate Wynne), which explains a lot of what has happened in the last 9 years.



It was never pitched this way.  Tim Hudak actually said we will save money $160 million a year by not having to build new LCBO's.  My thought was really? so the new owner won't be spending $160 million building new LCBO's.

Tim Hudak says some weird things like the $160 million statement above.   I remember the last election campaign him talking about bringing in 30,000 skilled workers through immigration.  The effects of the recession was still being felt at that time.

I as a contractor have skepticism about the skilled worker shortage.  Yes I agree on the government books of licensed or certified skilled workers there is s a short fall.  But due to loose rules a lot of skill workers don't have or need a license.  Factoring in everyone who does skilled work with out certification.  It is plausible Albeit research is needed that there is no real skilled worker shortage.  Just the numbers look bad.

Due to red tape. Companies don't want to train, it cost a lot of money to hire apprentice's and they are often not required (housing for instance pretty sure only licensed electricians and gas fitters are required, bulk of work is commenced by unskilled workers).  It would explain why the numbers look bad.  This information,  just like the LCBO, HST, hydro costs are not being fully disclosed.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Feb 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> It was never pitched this way.  Tim Hudak actually said we will save money $160 million a year by not having to build new LCBO's.  My thought was really? so the new owner won't be spending $160 million building new LCBO's.
> 
> Tim Hudak says some weird things like the $160 million statement above.   I remember the last election campaign him talking about bringing in 30,000 skilled workers through immigration.  The effects of the recession was still being felt at that time.
> 
> ...



It's $160 mil that won't be coming out of taxpayers pockets. Who cares what it cost the private investor. The private investor knows value for their dollar and are not spendthrift like government. They will provide better, cheaper, meaner and leaner service to maximize profits, while providing wider and better service to the consumer.

As to skilled trades, many are covered under O Reg 572\99. The rules aren't loose at all. If they are caught working without their license they will be fined on the spot and, you, the constructor or contractor, will be fined also. Likely per worker caught, along with a stop work order until you rectify the problem(s).

The problem with lack of skilled workers and apprentices lays with the system the Unions have set up in Ontario for introducing and advancing people in the trades. There is no government conspiracy. It's all on the unions. They starve the system artificially to demand wages that would make a plastic surgeon blush with shame.

Hudak wants to kill that system so more apprentices can enter the fields and become productive skilled tradespersons faster.

BTW, Schedule 1 of this OReg specifies electricians, plumbers, gasfitters, refrige techs, sheet metal and steam fitters. Those are all trades used in construction. Depending on the construction, you can also add hoisting engineer. That's a far cry from just electricians and gas fitters.

As a contractor you should be aware of that.


----------



## kevincanada (1 Feb 2013)

no need for hurtling insults. the listing was off the top of my head.  Here's the real list
http://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/eng/employmentontario/training/certification.html

Most skilled trades are voluntary for certification.  The bulk of the construction of a subdivision and commercial projects does not require licensed personal.  No the costs of apprenticeships are not because of unions the government sets out those costs not the union or corporation.

A $160 million in the form of the government spending it (out of alcohol sales profit) or a $160 million out of private corporation spending it (out of alcohol sales profit) is exactly the same the cost difference is null.

You cannot speed up a skilled trades person qualification.  There is a education component and mandatory hours of service that *must* be proven or you cannot write the exam.  A carpenter requires 7200 man hours and education component and proof of this in order to write the test and get a Certificate.

It is expensive for company because the company gets stuck with the bill for the educational aspect.  Plus mandatory wages.  Why hire a apprentice when you can hire someone already experienced and pay him less lol.  It is the lack of financial assurance to companies that create the training issues brought upon from the licensing program.  There is no finical incentive for companies to train people professionally.  That is only the main portions of the red tape around it.  There is more.

Also you quoted ONTARIO REGULATION 572/99
TRAINING REQUIREMENTS FOR CERTAIN SKILL SETS AND TRADES

This is licensing only.  Electrician is pretty obvious on the surface.  They need to be licensed.  That's fine.  What companies do is get one electrician and have people work under his ticket.  Everything passes the checks fine.   Or in the case of property owners, they just do the work themselves.

Plumbers are bad for this.  they'll get a few guys working,  Write them up as general laborer and boom go to work.

There is lots of skilled people out there working like this.  But they can't get licensed because the system doesn't favour, and again corporate cash incentives are non existent.  there is some rebates yes.  But it doesn't cover the costs or doing business in the way I described.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 Feb 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> It was never pitched this way.  Tim Hudak actually said we will save money $160 million a year by not having to build new LCBO's.  My thought was really? so the new owner won't be spending $160 million building new LCBO's.
> 
> Tim Hudak says some weird things like the $160 million statement above.   I remember the last election campaign him talking about bringing in 30,000 skilled workers through immigration.  The effects of the recession was still being felt at that time.
> 
> ...



Kevin,

With respect- that is not how it works in Alberta.  The govt sells the alcohol from it's warehouse to the retailer, collecting all relevant taxes.  After that, the retailer can go dump it in the ditch for all the govt cares- they have made their money.  The govt no longer has to deal with 1000s of unionized retail workers that went on strike like clockwork every summer.  Consumers no longer have put up with one liquor store in a town that has limited  choice and limited hours.  Even small towns usually have multiple liquor stores, and selection improved dramatically. The govt no longer has to build and maintain hundreds of retail buildings.

You don't have to believe any of us, but the evidence is there.  Go to Alberta and see for yourself.


----------



## Infanteer (2 Feb 2013)

Having worked in a private liquor store in BC, this one has already been a favourite of mine.

http://taxpayer.com/british-columbia/bc-liquor-store-clerk-wage-comparison

Entry level cashier positon selling booze.  Private stores pays $10 an hour while the government employess get $28.  WTF?


----------



## a_majoor (2 Feb 2013)

In some othre thread (my Google fu is weak tonight) there is an example of a government run Tim Hortons that had to close because it was losing money. Tim Hortons practically mints the stuff, so how could the government owed store (in a hospital, I recall) have lost money? They too paid @ $28/hr for their unionized coffee servers. While the coffee servers were probably happy withh their wages, the store's owner simply could not continue to run at a loss (I also believe the initial idea was to open a Tim's and use the profits to help offset some of the costs of running the hospital).

The coffee servers were less thrilled when they were out of a job....


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Feb 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> (my Google fu is weak tonight)



I got your back: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/taxpayers-top-up-money-losing-tim-hortons-at-halifax-hospital-1.1109211


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> In some othre thread (my Google fu is weak tonight) there is an example of a government run Tim Hortons that had to close because it was losing money. Tim Hortons practically mints the stuff, so how could the government owed store (in a hospital, I recall) have lost money? They too paid @ $28/hr for their unionized coffee servers. While the coffee servers were probably happy withh their wages, the store's owner simply could not continue to run at a loss (I also believe the initial idea was to open a Tim's and use the profits to help offset some of the costs of running the hospital).
> 
> The coffee servers were less thrilled when they were out of a job....



Same thing happened in a Windsor hospital where the workers were CAW members.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Feb 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I got your back: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/taxpayers-top-up-money-losing-tim-hortons-at-halifax-hospital-1.1109211



Four Timmies in one hopital?...changing the menu?,........gee, lets blame the employee's for that.


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Feb 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Four Timmies in one hopital?...changing the menu?,........gee, lets blame the employee's for that.



It says 4 in the area, probably one in each hospital?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Feb 2013)

"All four outlets are located at the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre and money that is supposed to pay for health care is instead being used to keep them afloat."


----------



## Scott (3 Feb 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Four Timmies in one hopital?...changing the menu?,........gee, lets blame the employee's for that.



Who blamed the employees? 

Food service should be privatized, full stop. No one serving coffee should be making that kind of money, full stop. That's not an employee thing at all. No one said it is, either.


----------



## PuckChaser (3 Feb 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> "All four outlets are located at the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre and money that is supposed to pay for health care is instead being used to keep them afloat."



I should read further down, I just caught the area line in the first paragraph. Thanks.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Feb 2013)

It's the union overture,..........and why shouldn't they make that much if the business makes that much?
Now if the business isn't doing well, then I agree........
Everytime we tried to privatice the food services in the system I work things went very badly,........ya' pay peanuts, ya' get monkeys.
Instead hire decent managers to run things correctly and reap all the benefits for the hospital........not friggin' rocket science.

But then look at the NDHQ and one can see why most in the military wouldn't know about that.


----------



## Scott (3 Feb 2013)

Sorry, Bruce, the only overture I see is calling into question the sanity of paying someone 28 bucks an hour to pour coffee when teenagers get a third of that to do it a block away. That's not anti union, that's anti stupid.

I can see an argument to keep some of the food services staff as status quo, but you lose me completely at a 28 buck an hour Timmies girl. We aren't talking rocket science there, either.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Feb 2013)

The article said $20,....RG's $28 was hearsay for now.

Yup,........bad management thinking a new business could pay that to start out.


----------



## Scott (3 Feb 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The article said $20,....RG's $28 was hearsay for now.



Fair enough.

20 bucks is too much. If we are talking Timmies.

Edit: re-read the article, 20 bucks an hour with benefits.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The article said $20,....RG's $28 was hearsay for now.
> 
> Yup,........bad management thinking a new business could pay that to start out.




Ummm, did I say $28 somewhere? I said they were CAW members. CAW doesn't just have locals of auto workers. 

Just like not all OPSEU members work for corrections.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Feb 2013)

My mistake,.....it was in the article quoted in your post.

Well,...just the worthy memebers of OPSEU work for Corrections......


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well,...just the worthy memebers of OPSEU work for Corrections......



Which is why a large number of other bargaining units feel that they are not listened to, consulted or cared about when certain other, larger units, drive the agenda.

Get to the polling stations, check the box we wants you to and we'll see you when the next contract comes around, capiche?
Questions? Don't bother, the answer is the same.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Feb 2013)

If only that were true,............since we don't get almost any say in the Central agreement.
Just those that will never see a minute after 5:00 or a weekend................


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Feb 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If only that were true,............since we don't get almost any say in the Central agreement.
> Just those that will never see a minute after 5:00 or a weekend................



That would leave my office out then


----------



## a_majoor (5 Feb 2013)

Please forward this the Premier Designate Wynne's office, and to every Liberal you know. California offers a preview of what Ontario's future may be:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/02/04/my-visit-to-california/



> *My visit to California*
> 
> Victor Fedeli, Special to Financial Post | Feb 4, 2013 8:58 PM ET
> More from Special to Financial Post
> ...



I visited family in CA during the holidays, and my experiences were rather similar.

Edit to add this piece, which brings the numbers into frightening focus:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/02/04/worse-than-california/



> *Worse than California*
> 
> Jason Clemens and Niels Veldhuis, Special to Financial Post | Feb 4, 2013 8:58 PM ET
> More from Special to Financial Post
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (16 Apr 2013)

Ontario is on the verge of letting another opportunity slip away. As a very indebted Province, there is a need to encourage new investment and clear away roadblocks for economic growth. While I am not thrilled about the idea that the Province should be on the hook for a highway (it benefits the company, if the company cannot pony up then the money from the province is a loan, not a grant or gift), the message that Premier designate Wynne is sending by sitting on her hands is pretty alarming. If potential investors with billions to put on the table are being placed on hold, what message do smaller investors get, and how do they respond?

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/04/16/ring-of-fire-in-jeopardy-over-miners-money-problems/



> *Ring of Fire in jeopardy over miner’s money problems*
> Allison Martell, Reuters | 13/04/16 | Last Updated: 13/04/16 2:34 PM ET
> More from Reuters
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (18 Apr 2013)

Given that the current Liberal government lives and dies on the word of the NDP, I think it is 100% certain that the number of reccomendations proposed in this article to be adopted will be 0. Ontario will be a have not province for decades to come...

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/04/17/ontario-budget-wynn/



> *Rethinking Ontario’s budget: Wynne’s chance to break from the past*
> Niels Veldhuis and Jason Clemens, Special to Financial Post | 13/04/17 | Last Updated: 13/04/17 8:11 PM ET
> More from Special to Financial Post
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (24 Apr 2013)

Pay the Danegeld, and you never get rid ofthe Dane.....

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/04/24/kelly-mcparland-kathleen-wynne-like-mcguinty-discovers-the-ndp-wont-stay-bought/



> *Kelly McParland: Kathleen Wynne, like McGuinty, discovers the NDP won’t stay bought*
> Kelly McParland | 13/04/24 12:07 PM ET
> More from Kelly McParland | @KellyMcParland
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (5 May 2013)

Ontario careens down the road to the fiscal cliff:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/05/02/ontario-liberals-postpone-spending-restraint/



> *Ontario Liberal Budget: Deficits are not our problem*
> 
> Jason Clemens and Niels Veldhuis, Special to Financial Post | 13/05/02 | Last Updated: 13/05/02 7:37 PM ET
> More from Special to Financial Post
> ...


----------



## dapaterson (5 May 2013)

Remember, though, the last election was Hudak's to lose - and he did.

Hudak implosion mark II to follow soon.  Very poor tactical choice to declare in advance that his party would vote against the budget - it means that for the next few weeks all discussion (outside of the self-licking ice cream cones of a handful of blogs) will focus on the NDP and the Liberals.


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Jun 2013)

One of the key issues in the last election - one that Tim Hudak failed to properly exploit - involved the *cover up* of the cost of moving two gas fired power plants. 

Now the issue is festering again and, as this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, it is a real scandal:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/in-power-plant-scandal-cover-up-is-worse-than-the-crime/article12375581/#dashboard/follows/


> In Ontario power-plant scandal, cover-up is worse than the crime
> 
> ADAM RADWANSKI
> The Globe and Mail
> ...




The decisions made by the McGuinty government were not just "bad," they were, arguably, crimes. But the Liberals have just fought and won an election (in Oct of 2012) and the results, in seats, were modest for all three parties. The Liberals were, barely, reduced to a minority position, but voters did not display any new confidence in either the Progressive Conservatives or the NDP.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Jun 2013)

And from "The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men  gang aft agley" department we have this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Toronto Star_:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/11/power_plant_cancellation_documents_secured_from_dalton_mcguintys_office_top_civil_servant_testifies.html


> Power plant cancellation documents secured from Dalton McGuinty's office, top civil servant testifies
> *Top bureaucrats “uncomfortable” about possibility that Dalton McGuinty’s office wasn’t saving power plant cancellation documents.*
> 
> By: Rob Ferguson
> ...




I suspect a lot of people in and around Queen's Park are a bit tense right now.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Jun 2013)

The current premier bids the former premier adieu ....


> Premier Wynne released this statement following* the resignation of Ottawa-South MPP Dalton McGuinty*:
> 
> "For almost 23 years, Dalton McGuinty served the people of Ottawa-South with vision and determination.
> 
> ...


Here's your hat, what's your hurry?


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Jun 2013)

The _Glone and Mail_, in an article by Adam Radwanski entitled For all his success, McGuinty has made one of the ugliest political exits Ontario has ever seen  is less charitable than was Premier Wynne. Adam Radwansk says, "This is the point at which we could be saying generous things about Dalton McGuinty" but " the most successful Ontario Liberal since the Second World War... has made one of the ugliest political exits his province has seen," and "he has managed to give the appearance of being driven from office twice by the same scandal."

It is, all-in-all, a pretty sad display. I opposed most of the things for which Dalton McGuinty stood but I agree he was, mostly, an astute and successful politician; I take no pleasure in the nature of his departure.


----------



## The_Falcon (13 Jun 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And from "The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men  gang aft agley" department we have this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Toronto Star_:
> 
> http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/11/power_plant_cancellation_documents_secured_from_dalton_mcguintys_office_top_civil_servant_testifies.html
> *
> I suspect a lot of people in and around Queen's Park are a bit tense right now.*



Good.


----------



## Edward Campbell (3 Jul 2013)

Ontario Premier Wynne is expected to call five by-elections today but, according to this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, the Ontario PCs are unlikely to win any of them:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-tories-brace-for-bleak-results-in-by-elections/article12943962/#dashboard/follows/


> Ontario Tories brace for bleak results in by-elections
> 
> ADAM RADWANSKI
> The Globe and Mail
> ...




Much as I dislike the Ontario Liberals I do not see either the PCs or, especially, the NDP as viable alternatives.

In my opinion the PCs need a new leader. I supported Mike Harris and his programme, but most Ontarians did not and they will not, not any time soon, elect one of his disciples. The Ontario PCs need a centrist leader ~ they had that choice in 2009 but the "base" chose between two Harris retreads, neither of whom can win.


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Jul 2013)

But Rob Benzie, the _Star's_ Queens Park Bureau chief disagrees, somewhat, in this article which is reproduced under the fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Toronto Star_:

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2013/07/05/ontario_liberals_on_track_to_lose_seats_to_pcs_ndp.bb.html


> Ontario Liberals on track to lose seats to PCs, NDP
> 
> Robert Benzie Queen's Park Bureau Chief
> 
> ...




It is still early going, but it is, also, a short campaign. The Liberals probably hope for a low voter turnout and some extra enthusiasm from their base.

I still think that none of Ontario's three major parties is _fit_ to govern. I don't live in any of the five ridings so my views don't really count.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Jul 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In my opinion the PCs need a new leader. I supported Mike Harris and his program me, but most Ontarian did not and they will not, not any time soon, elect one of his disciples.



That is a definite,.............I too supported Mike Harris's 'programs', until the morons he surrounded himself with went to work on them. [I call that whole regime, except for Mr. Runciman, "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight", ala Don Knotts]

Mr. Hudak's problem is that he doesn't need to surround himself with stupid, he radiates it enough all by himself.  I'm glad my riding is not one of the by-elections, there is no way I could vote Conservative as long as Mr. Hudak remains at the helm.


EDIT: forgot the "no".


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jul 2013)

I'm in the riding for Windsor.


The NDP guy is on city council (I think they should be required to abdicate their position if they want to run) was a CBC reporter and has the unions (strong here) backing. If he wins and his performance on city council is an indication, he'll be useless in the legislature also. The guy is a media hound and knows what to say when the camera or mike is pointed at him. It seldom results in like action though.

The Liberal is a cast off by his party, playing strictly to the ethnic vote. I don't think for a moment that Wynne had any delusions about his chances. He appears genuine, but that won't help him. He's polling at around 17% and I expect that will drop after the televised debate they're going to have here.

The Conservative candidate is a veteran of this ridings elections. He's a good solid guy. He's increased his numbers every time against Duncan and was making ground. Had Duncan stayed and run again, I think this guy might have upset him this time.

So I'm voting on the local level, not the provincial one.

That said:

Hudak reminds me of Richard Nixon when he showed up with his five o'clock shadow to debate Kennedy. He's not telegenic and gives off a smug, condescending attitude even when he doesn't intend to. Which is all the time.

Horvath is another NDP glory seeker. She was told by members, here, unanimously, and elsewhere around the province to pull the plug on the Libs. She turned around and said, to the effect, "after consulting with our members, they don't want an election". She lied, plain and simple, to stay in position. Ontarians see her for what she is and that bothers her greatly. She'll likely face a leadership challenge after the next election and she doesn't want to give up her day job.

Wynne has been nothing but McSquinty's bagman from the get go. Before and after her election. She (and her party) are deadmen walking.


----------



## a_majoor (19 Jul 2013)

Time honoured practice of vote buying rolled out again in Ontario. "Wher's my cheque", you ask? You're probably the one who is beig forced to pay out for this...

http://www.fuschisforum.com/election-snake-oil-for-ontario-cons/



> *Election Snake-oil for Ontario Cons*
> Posted on July 18, 2013
> 
> If you believe in coincidence and the tooth fairy, then you will think nothing of the sudden blizzard of cheque manna raining down from the Ontario government. My mother just received a “senior homeowners property tax grant”. My daughter got a substantial “Trillium benefit”. My son, ditto. And even I got a small pittance in “Trillium energy grant”.
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (31 Jul 2013)

The lighter side of the election: "Champaign Communist" by Helix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgY5IJv9zK4&feature=player_embedded#at=11


----------



## Inquisitor (2 Aug 2013)

Doug Holyday winning in in Etobicoke is a very good sign for at least several reasons. 

I grew up in Etobicoke Central. In terms of a hardworking "my constituents come first" - he is the real deal. 

Off topic Perhaps all candidate for office should start at the local level, as if it will ever happen. 

Tim Hudak? I don't care for some of his policies but credit were due, he is the hardest working of the provincial leaders and not afraid to take a principled stand. 

Best wishes


----------



## Remius (2 Aug 2013)

Really?  The only signs I see is that Ontarians are looking to the NDP as the government in waiting and not the Conservatives.  Hudak botched the last election and was only able to win one seat in this bi-election.  The NDP gained ground.  Ottawa South was looking to go PC but the polls got it wrong (again).  

Not even 24hrs and there are calls for change in the PC party.  Maybe not at the leadership level, but if this bi-election is any indication, they are not connecting with people.  Even when the governing party is marred in scandal and playing dirty tricks.

Could Wynne pull off a Clark or a Redford in the next general election?  At this point I'm thinking she might.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Aug 2013)

Inquisitor said:
			
		

> .... Off topic Perhaps all candidate for office should start at the local level, as if it will ever happen ....


A bad municipal councillor won't necessarily make a better MPP or MP.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Aug 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Really?  The only signs I see is that Ontarians are looking to the NDP as the government in waiting and not the Conservatives.  Hudak botched the last election and was only able to win one seat in this bi-election.  The NDP gained ground.  Ottawa South was looking to go PC but the polls got it wrong (again).
> 
> Not even 24hrs and there are calls for change in the PC party.  Maybe not at the leadership level, but if this bi-election is any indication, they are not connecting with people.  Even when the governing party is marred in scandal and playing dirty tricks.
> 
> Could Wynne pull off a Clark or a Redford in the next general election?  At this point I'm thinking she might.



Don't count what you saw in Windsor as an indicator. Percy Hatfield was a long time union executive. He was a union man on city council siding most often for the local labour council. Windsor, especially, Windsor-Tecumseh, is a blue collar, lunch bucket crowd populated by union people. Hatfield has name recognition and was a local newscaster. You only had to see the news programs that kept showing Ken Lewenza, national president of the CAW, at the polling station, if you had any doubt about who was being courted to vote here.

Most people that vote NDP are still in town, at their jobs. Most that vote PC are on vacation.

The reason Duncan (liberal) used to win the riding was because he spent tax dollars like a drunken sailor there. If the population of Windsor -Tecumseh likes solidarity, they like free money better. Now that largesse is gone they can go back to voting like their unions want them to.


----------



## a_majoor (4 Aug 2013)

This not only explains the Ontario election, but also I think elections in general. This is also why polls are becoming so out to lunch:

http://clownatmidnight.blogspot.ca/2013/08/nobody-goes-to-jail.html



> *Nobody Goes To Jail*
> 
> There are no "low information voters." The problem is not "media bias." The problem is not that people don't know about the gas plant scandal or the email deletion scandal or any number of Liberal scandals. The problem is that there is more corruption, lawbreaking, and general bad behaviour in politics now than there has ever been, and nobody gets punished for it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Aug 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> That is a definite,.............I too supported Mike Harris's 'programs', until the morons he surrounded himself with went to work on them. [I call that whole regime, except for Mr. Runciman, "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight", ala Don Knotts]
> 
> Mr. Hudak's problem is that he doesn't need to surround himself with stupid, he radiates it enough all by himself.  I'm glad my riding is not one of the by-elections, there is no way I could vote Conservative as long as Mr. Hudak remains at the helm.
> 
> ...




The Toronto Sun reports that PC Leader Tim Hudak faces [a] leadership challenge. The report says that "Ten London-area Tory party members have signed a motion to amend the PC party constitution to allow for a leadership vote to take place. Many party members have expressed dismay over the Tories’ poor byelection showing last week and feel Hudak’s low personal popularity ratings have a lot to do with that." It quotes one source as saying that “The issue arose because at the door and on the telephone, voters expressed their dislike for Tim Hudak.”


----------



## PuckChaser (5 Aug 2013)

A new leader is what the Ontario Tories need to kick start their campaigning. Hudak has laid the groundwork of corruption within the governing Liberals, now the Tories need a well-spoken, charismatic leader to take over the ball and run with it. Ontario voters are looking for anyone but Liberals and NDP.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Aug 2013)

I've said before, Hudak's physical image is too Richard Nixon-esqe. Right down to the five o'clock shadow. That and he has a weasel-rodent look about him, and I'm not saying that to be derogatory. People pick up on that stuff, usually in about the first 10-15 seconds and while their mulling his physical appearance, they miss the message, but by then, they've already made up their minds.

He's, so very, not telegenic, and that hurts him with todays young voter that's trying to decide what side of the fence they want to be on.


----------



## GAP (5 Aug 2013)

Maybe it's time some charismatic federal CPC member left their ivory tower and took over the reins of the provincial wing......is there such an animal?   :dunno:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Aug 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> Maybe it's time some charismatic federal CPC member left their ivory tower and took over the reins of the provincial wing......is there such an animal?   :dunno:


 :sarcasm: How about Bob Rae.  ;D He's opportunistic and will jump ship to whatever party will further his career, no matter what his convictions are. If he has any real ones. :sarcasm:


----------



## GAP (5 Aug 2013)

Ontario already had had a taste of Rae in one of his other itinerations, I doubt they would want another.

Mind.....to his mind, if Rae can't be PM, maybe he could be Premier..... :


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Aug 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> A new leader is what the Ontario Tories need to kick start their campaigning. Hudak has laid the groundwork of corruption within the governing Liberals, now the Tories need a well-spoken, charismatic leader to take over the ball and run with it. Ontario voters are looking for anyone but Liberals and NDP.




How about: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



?

The bad news is that she finished third behind Hudak and Frank Klees. 

The 2nd ballot results were:

Tim Hudak	         39.95%	+6.0 change from 1st ballot
Frank Klees	       31.94%	+1.9      "         "      "      "
Christine Elliott	 28.10%	+1.6      "         "      "      "

Mike Harris and most of the Mike Harris team supported Hudak (Elliott's husband, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty supported her); the _religious right_ supported Klees. Elliott took the _Progressive_ Conservative vote but it is only about 30% of the party membership.

In my opinion Elliott is the most likely PC to win the next election but it remains unlikely that she can win her own party.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Aug 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> How about:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But that was then Edward, this is now. Many of those that originally voted this way may be inclined to rethink their vote should they believe Hudak is about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory again....and again....and..........

I think a runoff between three female party leaders is something that this province could get behind. It would go a long way to evening out the gender vote.


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## Edward Campbell (5 Aug 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> But that was then Edward, this is now. Many of those that originally voted this way may be inclined to rethink their vote should they believe Hudak is about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory again....and again....and..........
> 
> I think a runoff between three female party leaders is something that this province could get behind. It would go a long way to evening out the gender vote.




Agree with you on both points ~ maybe it's just *hope* on the first one.


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## GAP (5 Aug 2013)

People are not adverse to the idea of 2 or 3 women party leaders duking it out....eg: Alberta.

She might have a shot, especially with Wynn(sp?) in place....


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## Retired AF Guy (5 Aug 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> A new leader is what the Ontario Tories need to kick start their campaigning. Hudak has laid the groundwork of corruption within the governing Liberals, now the Tories need a well-spoken, charismatic leader to take over the ball and run with it. Ontario voters are looking for anyone but Liberals and NDP.



How about Doug Holyday? The Conservatives have rural Ontario pretty well sewn-up and with Holyday they finally have a toehold in suburban Toronto. Holyday, who was deputy mayor of Toronto and familiar to Toronto voters, as leader, might be able to convince more suburban voters to vote Conservative.


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## a_majoor (5 Aug 2013)

Too bad, Hudak probably would have been a competent Premier.

I think the bigger issue is not so much the leader but the circle of (generally unelected) advisers and party functionaries who surround him. I do follow Ontario politics and know people who are connected at various levels, and we are all struck by the fact that Hudak is still surrounded by the same "winning" team that John Tory had.

This may be part of a larger meta issue: while politicians are the visible face of the party, much of what the party does is going on in the back rooms unobserved by the public. So if we are upset at the politicians or political leadership, we are actually reacting to the 90% of the iceberg that we don't see. In that regard, unless any putative "new" leaderdoes a huge job of housecleaning, we will likely get more of the same.

We see this with the Federal Liberal Party as well; they are bereft of ideas and any motivating principle (besides win at any cost). Even potential leadership candidates with actual platforms would have been unable, if challenged, to explain how these platforms were in any way "Liberal"; Marc Garneu's platform would have been a very comfortable fit with the NDP while Martha Hall Findley's was comfortably Conservative. The LPC eventually sidestepped the issue by crowning a leadership candidate without any platform at all.....the Liberal party executive has pinned their hopes on a PR stunt. Since the executive has thrown away every chance to correct the lack of principle or platform since 2006 (if not earlier) they may well discover they will achieve the same level of success as they have in the previous elections. How many other political parities are stuck in the same rut because of entrenched circles of advisers and functionaries?

edit to add: a blogger suggests what is really the issue and possible solution:

http://www.fuschisforum.com/time-for-pcs-to-break-some-eggs/



> *Time for PCs to Break Some Eggs*
> Posted on August 5, 2013
> 
> The day after the by-elections, an e-mail from the PC party of Ontario elaborated on the great gains made, and all the reasons for future optimism. The gist of my reply to them was that they are dreaming, and that the optimistic outcome is thirty years away.
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (7 Aug 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> How about:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And she is not making more friends, apparently, in the midst of the leadership challenge ....


> A group of disgruntled London Tories has met a drop-dead deadline to tell Ontario Tory Leader Tim Hudak to drop dead.
> 
> Bill and Diane Litowski are among 10 party members pushing to change the Progressive Conservative constitution to allow a leadership vote at the party’s policy convention in London next month.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (9 Aug 2013)

Federal Tory John Baird on Hudak, via the G&M:


> .... Mr. Baird said Thursday the provincial opposition party should “be focusing on tackling Ontario’s problems, not a few naysayers tackling each other.”
> 
> “Winning involves unity,” Mr. Baird, a former Ontario PC minister, told The Globe and Mail in a phone interview from Rio de Janeiro. “We’ve got to stay focused on who the real enemy is, and that’s bloated government, big deficits and lagging employment numbers in Ontario. Tim is the one to tackle those, and now is not the time to be inward-looking.”
> 
> ...


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## Inquisitor (9 Aug 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> How about Doug Holyday? The Conservatives have rural Ontario pretty well sewn-up and with Holyday they finally have a toehold in suburban Toronto. Holyday, who was deputy mayor of Toronto and familiar to Toronto voters, as leader, might be able to convince more suburban voters to vote Conservative.



Not only suburban but urban also. 

Having lived in Etobicoke Centre when Holyday was mayor, he is the real deal.  

Bonus Bonus and not as eccentric as some of  the other players. 

 In my view he could retain the traditional base, in rural, suburban Ontario. 

As well as gain traction amongst liberal/ndp supporters who do not agree with the current state of affairs. 

 His  main strength iseems to be his consistent record and ability to deal with difficult issues, and dissenting views.


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