# Terror Attacks on London England - 07 Jul 05 & 21 Jul 05



## 1feral1 (7 Jul 2005)

I did not know here to place this information, so I put it here. I hate to pass on such bad news.......

Such bad news here on a Thursday's winter night in Australia. It looks like its Londons turn. This cowardly attack is all over CNNI, Fox and Sky right now. It happened about 65 minutes ago. 1950h AEST

So far 2 killed, 90 injured, and they are saying these figures will sadly rise.

Right now large rescue ops are underway, a big op at Kings Cross Station.

www.foxnews.com www.cnn.com www.skynews.com.au www.bbc.co.uk
Wes


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## jmackenzie_15 (7 Jul 2005)

Beat me to it Wes.
It was saying on CNN a few moments ago a government source has confirmed 20 dead so far....

Blew up buses and subways during rush hour.
Cowards

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/07/london-subway050707.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/london.tube/index.html


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## The_Falcon (7 Jul 2005)

This goes to show NO ONE is say.   Bloody F**king cowards. There are reports that Brittish Military are patrolling the streets.   If this happened in Canada are there enough of us to do that? Of course 680 news here Toronto went down to Union Station to see if there is any extra security and to talk to people about what the they think.   We all know what everyone said, "too bad about London, but here in Lala-land er Toronto we are safe this could NEVER happen :"   When it finally happens here it will be chaos.   Watching it live coverage right now, they seem to have a fairly good grasp on the emergency response front/triaging and rescue.


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## Dare (7 Jul 2005)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/07/AR2005070700221_pf.html

By JANE WARDELL
The Associated Press
Thursday, July 7, 2005; 7:20 AM

LONDON -- Half a dozen explosions rocked the London subway and tore open a packed double-decker bus during the morning rush hour Thursday. The blasts killed at least two people and injured scores in what a shaken Prime Minister Tony Blair said was a series of "barbaric" terrorist attacks.

Blair said it was clear the attacks were designed to coincide with the opening of the G-8 summit in Gleneagles, Scotland. The prime minister said the meeting of world leaders would continue but that he would return to London.

"Whatever they do, it is our determination that they will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear in this country and in other civilized nations throughout the world," Blair said a day after London was awarded the 2012 Olympics.

Bloodied and bandaged witnesses reported panicked crowds fleeing the blast sites. A witness at the bus explosion said the entire top deck of the bus was destroyed.

Sir Ian Blair, London's police chief, said he was concerned the explosions were a coordinated attack but said he wouldn't speculate on who was responsible. He said officials had found indications of explosives at one of the sites.

A senior Israeli official said Scotland Yard told Israel minutes before the explosions that it had received warnings of possible terror attacks.

One witness, Darren Hall, said some passengers emerging from an evacuated subway station had soot and blood on their faces. He told BBC TV that he was evacuated along with others near the major King's Cross station and only afterward heard a blast.

Police confirmed an explosion destroyed a double-decker bus at Russell Square in central London. Dow Jones Newswires reported that police said there were explosions on two other buses.

"I was on the bus in front and heard an incredible bang, I turned round and half the double decker bus was in the air," Belinda Seabrook told Press Association, the British news agency.

She said the bus was packed with people. "It was a massive explosion and there were papers and half a bus flying through the air," she said.

Police said incidents were reported at the Aldgate station near the Liverpool Street railway terminal, Edgware Road and King's Cross in north London, Old Street in the financial district and Russell Square in central London, near the British Museum.

Bradley Anderson, a subway passenger, told Sky News that "there was some kind of explosion or something" as his train reached the Edgware Road station in northeast London.

"Everything went black and we collided into some kind of oncoming train," Anderson said.

Simon Corvett, 26, who was on an eastbound train from Edgware Road station, said: "All of sudden there was this massive huge bang."

"It was absolutely deafening and all the windows shattered," he said. "There were just loads of people screaming and the carriages filled with smoke.

"You could see the carriage opposite was completely gutted," he said. "There were some people in real trouble."

London's cell phone network was working after the explosions but was overloaded and spotty, limiting communication.

The explosions sent stocks plummeting in Europe, with several of the major indexes down 3 percent.


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## jmackenzie_15 (7 Jul 2005)

The enemy is much closer to home than the ignorant public wants to beleive.
No one outside of the RCMP, the CF or the government really seem to take this seriously or care too much.

the wake up call will be a loud one.


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## 1feral1 (7 Jul 2005)

Quite frankly Lads, I am truly sickened by this whole yet unfolding event. In all honestly this could be any western city, and sadly its the innocents who have to pay.

In respect of those killed and injured, I will not comment any further for now.

Wes


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## Slim (7 Jul 2005)

All too soon we forget the effect of 911. The celebrations in the streets of our own city at the suffering of the U.S.

Our country is not what it once was and the wake up may not be a wake up at all but an act of vengenace (for them...our enemy!)

Its coming! Mark my words!

We need to be ready.

Slim


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## Dare (7 Jul 2005)

Got independent word, 7 blasts in London. Plus two in Brighton and in Swindon. Olympic party is cancelled. BBC.CO.UK is swamped.


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## The_Falcon (7 Jul 2005)

Latest news as of now 739 EST 4 explsions, 3 underground, 1 bus, double digits of killed according to emergency services. Switching from resuce to recovery.


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## mover1 (7 Jul 2005)

The PM and his gang are in Scotland right now for the G-8 summit. I hope that this shakes their boots a bit and gives them a wake up call to start taking this stuff seriously, and front the cash instead of just double talk. 
But then Ann Maclellan will open her mouth. Jack Layton will want the money for some far out social plan. And the Consevatives will try to vote it down in non- confidence.


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## The_Falcon (7 Jul 2005)

10 dead so far at Kings Cross, 160 wounded 758 EST, All "survivors" rescued from Kingscross, recovery of the dead just beginning.


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## jmackenzie_15 (7 Jul 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> All too soon we forget the effect of 911. The celebrations in the streets of our own city at the suffering of the U.S.
> 
> Our country is not what it once was and the wake up may not be a wake up at all but an act of vengenace (for them...our enemy!)
> 
> ...



I second that.


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## winchable (7 Jul 2005)

It seems the explosions occurred between station so it appeared as though there were more blasts than there actually were.

Home Secretary confirmed on BBC Parliament that there are 4 confirmed blasts, 3 between tube stations and one bus.
2 Confirmed dead so far, anything else would appear to be speculation.
Attacks are confined to London as far as I know, though I'm writing this at a cafe in Birmingham (the second city) so there's a bit of tension in the air because if it's going to be any other city, it's going to be Birmingham.

The Brits have been dealing with terrorists for years now, so even an "unprepared" London (and they were somewhat unprepared) was incredibly prepared for such an incident with tested emergency plans going into place instaneously.

Even watching the news the bystanders right at the square looking at the destruction, the people on the tube, all completely stonewalled any emotional reaction.

The stiff upper lip at work.
My grandfather called to see if I was alright and said something to the effect of "Britain has survived the blitz, World Wars at their doorstep and IRA attacks, they'll dance over this and life will go on, you watch."
Even as I speak people are going about business as usual, it's an amazing phenomenon to watch the mindset of the British when you consider how close everything is.

The tube and buses are all shut down indefinitely, sadly London is effectively paralysed which it seems was the intent of the attacks but it will not be for long I wager.

My only hope, and I'll echo Slim's sentiments, is that someone in Canada takes heed as even if they do prepare somewhat they will not deal with attacks on this scale as well as London did so they can only prepare and pray for a bit of luck.


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## WannaBeFlyer (7 Jul 2005)

I have two friends who both work in London.   I was thankfully able to confirm they were ok. My condolences to the others that were not as fortunate. 

Is it ironic that this happened around 8:49? I don't think so.


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## McG (7 Jul 2005)

Vigilant said:
			
		

> Crap, what the heck would we do if something like this happened in Toronto?


Make that talk in the National Security board.   Leave this thread for Britain.   Our NATO ally has been hurt this morning.   Lets post our support.  People have died, lets not hide our condolences by making this about us.

Islamic group says it carried out attacks - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050707.wqaed0707/BNStory/International/

Terrorist blasts cripple London - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050707.wlondon0707/BNStory/Front/


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## winchable (7 Jul 2005)

Reports are all the same on BBC more or less, emergency services is about to hold a press conference.

There is no military presence, only the Met doing searches with dogs.

The BBC reported there was an additional _controlled_ blast this morning, though I dont know how accurate those reports are.

Still only 2 confirmed dead as far as I can see, both at Aldgate.

Like I said before, you can really see the people handling this very well considering.


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## winchable (7 Jul 2005)

The fatalities are now 31+ (33 on BBC 31 on ITV) at king's cross.


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## Whiskey_Dan (7 Jul 2005)

Only cowards could have been able to carry out this attack. Heartless idiots with no regards to human life what so ever. It is reasons like this that I decided to join the P. Reserves until I'm old enough to join the regs. Ironically, I get sworn in tonight.

Dan


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## chriscalow (7 Jul 2005)

I hope they get the bastards..   What a horrible thing to wake up to.. Again.   My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.


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## Vigilant (7 Jul 2005)

Sorry, it was in Radio Chatter before, I didn't see it get moved until now.



> Islamic group says it carried out attacks
> Associated Press
> 
> Cairo â â€ A group calling itself â Å“The Secret Organization of al-Qaida in Europeâ ? has posted a statement of responsibility for the series of blasts in London, saying they were in retaliation for Britain's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> ...


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## P-Free (7 Jul 2005)

Screw the condolences, today is not the day for them, let's grow some balls and root these SOBs out wherever they hide.


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## winchable (7 Jul 2005)

Terminal 3 at Heathrow has been evacuated and was just re-opened.

The Met Police chief has said there are no verifiable reports as to who was behind it, just got that off his press conference.

Other than that, right now they're just talking about how well the contingency plans worked.


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## tomahawk6 (7 Jul 2005)

They hide amongst us. The terrorists most likely were local members of the muslim community.


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## Dare (7 Jul 2005)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> They hide amongst us. The terrorists most likely were local members of the muslim community.



London has a major problem with local radicals, it's almost guarenteed (almost). I originally posted this news here but it was deleted (for whatever reason). The networks are on it now, so the reports are more accurate there.

EDIT: NM, it was merged, I didn't notice.
EDIT2: All but one of my people are accounted for. NFG. 
EDIT3: I've got to add, it's a MIRACLE that there were not fatalities in the hundreds given the nature of the attacks. If anyone knows the tubes in London, they're packed real tight.
EDIT4: All accounted for. Now into vengeance mode.


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## Infanteer (7 Jul 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> EDIT4: All accounted for. Now into vengeance mode.



Good to hear Dare.


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## shokuten (7 Jul 2005)

first i want to say something about blaming the Muslim community, its radicals that do this, fundamentalist are in any religion, its just that we hear the most about the Muslim fundamentalist...

this is a sin, 33 people are dead, and i hope they find thier way to where ever it is you go when you die, i hope the survivor's are alright and i hope the can begin healing soon

i hope the bast@rds that did this are found and dealt with according to the laws, although multiple punches to their sacks would be welcomed as well..

and i have a question...is the CF going to go on a sort of stand by? I'm a pond scum recruit but is there a possibility of a phone call for me tonight saying that my training has been moved closer?


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## Dare (7 Jul 2005)

shokuten said:
			
		

> first i want to say something about blaming the Muslim community, its radicals that do this, fundamentalist are in any religion, its just that we hear the most about the Muslim fundamentalist...


I like to be optimistic, sometimes (believe it or not) and think that it's not the problem of a specific religious construct, but a natural problem of religious fanaticism. I'll have to hold off judgement on that until I see a bus full of innocent civilians blown up by militant Buddhists. And I don't think anyone was blaming the community, but rather mentioning the very high likelyhood that member of the London area Muslim community are the perpetrators as there have been many radicals arrested in the area (of whom, I also doubt are Buddhist).


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## 392 (7 Jul 2005)

shokuten said:
			
		

> and i have a question...is the CF going to go on a sort of stand by?



Probably not, unless of course things get a little more out of hand and other major cities around the globe start having terrorist actions.



> I'm a pond scum recruit but is there a possibility of a phone call for me tonight saying that my training has been moved closer?



Almost definitely not.

Now back to the regularly scheduled thread...


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## shokuten (7 Jul 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> I like to be optimistic, sometimes (believe it or not) and think that it's not the problem of a specific religious construct, but a natural problem of religious fanaticism. I'll have to hold off judgement on that until I see a bus full of innocent civilians blown up by militant Buddhists. And I don't think anyone was blaming the community, but rather mentioning the very high likelyhood that member of the London area Muslim community are the perpetrators as there have been many radicals arrested in the area (of whom, I also doubt are Buddhist).



true, but i mean there are alot of Muslims out there that are gonna feel the heat when they had nothing to do with this, 

these are sick individuals, that have a tie to a large religion and give that religion a bad name by their actions...

i hope who ever is responsable is caught

Cheers


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## Dare (7 Jul 2005)

shokuten said:
			
		

> true, but i mean there are alot of Muslims out there that are gonna feel the heat when they had nothing to do with this,
> 
> these are sick individuals, that have a tie to a large religion and give that religion a bad name by their actions...
> 
> ...


If the authorities that be were looking for someone who had commited mass murder, or that was planning to commit mass murder, that fit my profile, I would be as cooperative and understanding as possible. Often the most assertive groups against profiling are public fronts for radicals (ie. CAIR). Now if by "heat" you mean something other than legitimate investigations, more in the direction of misdirected public fear/anger. It is unfortunate, but I don't see how it can be avoided after such an attack. 

I think there is a decent chance they will catch some of the perpetrators (CCTV everywhere) but I don't know of those radical Clerics are going to be able to flaunt their nuttiness in public outdoor sermons anymore though..


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## Island Ryhno (7 Jul 2005)

Too quickly the world has forgotten what "black days" truly are. Terrorism is not something that happens far, far away in a desolate, foreign country. Terrorism is here on our very own doorstep, knocking and waiting for a chance to stick it's foot in the door. These are very sad times we live in, regrets to all who were lost or hurt.


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## shokuten (7 Jul 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> If the authorities that be were looking for someone who had commited mass murder, or that was planning to commit mass murder, that fit my profile, I would be as cooperative and understanding as possible. Often the most assertive groups against profiling are public fronts for radicals (ie. CAIR). Now if by "heat" you mean something other than legitimate investigations, more in the direction of misdirected public fear/anger. It is unfortunate, but I don't see how it can be avoided after such an attack.
> 
> I think there is a decent chance they will catch some of the perpetrators (CCTV everywhere) but I don't know of those radical Clerics are going to be able to flaunt their nuttiness in public outdoor sermons anymore though..



thats what i meant by heat, fear and anger towards people who had nothing to do with it, just because of the color of their skin.

its happend so many times before, but everyone who didn't have anything to do with the attacks, should co-operarte as much as possible so that the authority's can find whoever responsible


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## Britney Spears (7 Jul 2005)

I was JUST about to post something last night about how the UK would be a logical next target for a major terrorist attack, seeing as how terrorism has cowed the rest of Europe into withdrawing support for the war in Iraq. The immediete tactical goal of AQ would be to polarize public opinion in the UK, hopefully bring down the Blair goverment over what is already an unpopular war(the Olympics and G-8 certainly will be factors, I would hypothesize that the final order to "go" was probably given immedietly after the results of the Olympics decision),  and enact a withdraw of British troops of from Iraq. 

Basically Spain/Madrid Redux. 

 If this goal is reached it would be a major political and diplomatic setback for the US. 


Honestly I was.....


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## I_am_John_Galt (7 Jul 2005)

> As for the British people and government - well, I'm sure they will not react as Spain did, though surely some will seize the moment to advocate just that. A reminder, however, for the residents of that Scepter'd Isle:
> 
> You've been here before, only worse... the Blitz.
> 
> ...


 http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/004253.html


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## Blackhorse7 (7 Jul 2005)

Hell of a thing to wake up to... CBC News is my home page.  *This is not going to end until our allied governments take clear and direct action.*  I realize that we all want to live in a democratic country where the average _law abiding_ citizen is free from harassment and such.  But give the Police the tools to root out and deal with these cowardly criminals.  Give the courts a shake-up, and start jailing these bastards for life.  And perhaps most importantly, give the Military the tools, and the mandate to take the fight to the enemy.


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## Horse_Soldier (7 Jul 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> Outstanding post! Lets give them all they want and more.


Absolutely.  

Sadly, the unwashed masses remain in frighteningly obtuse denial, if the comments posted on Propaganda Canada aka the CBC are any indication
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/yourspace/london-blasts.html


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## Dare (7 Jul 2005)

Horse_Soldier said:
			
		

> Absolutely.
> 
> Sadly, the unwashed masses remain in frighteningly obtuse denial, if the comments posted on Propaganda Canada aka the CBC are any indication
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/yourspace/london-blasts.html


There are indications in several media outlets that they are going to spin it into an anti-Iraq message. (ie. It's Bush's fault. If we just acquiesced to their demands we would be safe. Etc.) In fact, watching CBC's coverage, they kept bending it in that direction, often snydly remarking that Bush would spin it to an Iraq message. It sickened me to hear it. Especially so soon. Their journalists seem to be the least phazed by it, for some reason. They still manage to keep the smirk.


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## muskrat89 (7 Jul 2005)

I stopped reading the comments on the CBC link because they were making me furious. Do these people really represent what Canada has become?  :-\


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## I_am_John_Galt (7 Jul 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> There are indications in several media outlets that they are going to spin it into an anti-Iraq message. (ie. It's Bush's fault. If we just acquiesced to their demands we would be safe. Etc.) In fact, watching CBC's coverage, they kept bending it in that direction, often snydly remarking that Bush would spin it to an Iraq message. It sickened me to hear it. Especially so soon. Their journalists seem to be the least phazed by it, for some reason. They still manage to keep the smirk.



It's sickening ... it will be interesting to see who spins this as "anti-Iraq" vice "anti-Iraq and Afghanistan" ... amazing how many differentiate between the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan (although al-Queda certainly doesn't) ... rather difficult to fight a war against an enemy that so many of your so-called allies refuse to acknowledge.


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## Horse_Soldier (7 Jul 2005)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> I stopped reading the comments on the CBC link because they were making me furious. Do these people really represent what Canada has become?   :-\


A totally unscientific and unrepresentative survey of people around me would seem to bear out the fact that the majority, when they actually put their minds to the issues at all, believe the tripe that if we're nice to the enemy, things will be just fine - and it's all GWB's fault.  Further unscientific sampling indicates that francophones have a greater tendency to blame GWB rather than the perpetrators, than anglophones do.  I suspect that even _when_ Canada gets a direct hit, as it will sooner or later, this tendency to refuse to face reality will not only continue but increase.


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## Infanteer (7 Jul 2005)

The "blame it all on Iraq" comments on the CBC board seem to be pretty short-sighted.   It didn't take Iraq (or Afghanistan) to convince the enemy to attack the WTC twice.


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## Brad Sallows (7 Jul 2005)

If civilization is a veneer, I must admit mine is starting to wear a bit thin.  Anyone have some varnish?


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## Cdn Blackshirt (7 Jul 2005)

Until we see the Canadian Muslim populations demonstrating as angrily against these attacks as they did against the stories they knew were false in Newsweek about Quran desecration, then we have a Fifth Column problem as it indicates they believe terrorist attacks are justified, and if they can justify it in their minds, it is likely they have or will support it either financially or in other ways.

Bottom Line:  It's time for Canada's Muslim population to step up and in one voice say "This is not acceptable!".... 



Matthew.


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## rmc_wannabe (7 Jul 2005)

All i can say right now is...What did we do for God to be this pissed at us? ??? If this is the existance my generation has to look forward too, i'm about ready to check out .

My Deepest prayers are with Britain right now.


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## Spr.Earl (7 Jul 2005)

One day of 4 bombs compared to what the IRA did in the past is a hic up.
Read what the IRA did in the past

 What I'm afraid of is the yobo's get into the old "Pakie Bashing" like the early 70's in the U.K.
It was bad!!
If you were S.E. Asian you were far game for a beating.

I just hope this does not happen.


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## 392 (7 Jul 2005)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Bottom Line:   It's time for Canada's Muslim population to step up and in one voice say "This is not acceptable!"....



It's not just time for Canada's Muslim population to do it, it's time for the world's Muslim population to do it.


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## bled12345 (7 Jul 2005)

If Canada ignores the blood of our allies being spilled, and does nothing to aid in this war, I will be the first to admit I am shamed as a canadian...


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## Dare (7 Jul 2005)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> One day of 4 bombs compared to what the IRA did in the past is a hic up.
> Read what the IRA did in the past
> 
> What I'm afraid of is the yobo's get into the old "Pakie Bashing" like the early 70's in the U.K.
> ...


Yes, UK officials are worried that this attack will be a big gain for the BNP. 

ABC is reporting two unexploded bombs found.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=918193


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## P-Free (7 Jul 2005)

Does nothing??? We've got a couple thousand soldiers running around the mountains of Afghanistan and the streets of Kabul...


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## paracowboy (7 Jul 2005)

P-Free said:
			
		

> Does nothing??? We've got a couple thousand soldiers running around the mountains of Afghanistan and the streets of Kabul...


we do? You sure?


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## 1feral1 (7 Jul 2005)

Meanwhile, somehere in your neighbourhood in Canada and even here, in Australia, many muslims will again be rejoicing, celebrating, and dancing in the streets, just like they did on S11.

I'll be keen to hear  :  what shit is going to dribble out of Sydney's islamic leaders mouths about yesterday's attacks.


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## 392 (7 Jul 2005)

P-Free said:
			
		

> Does nothing??? We've got a couple thousand soldiers running around the mountains of Afghanistan and the streets of Kabul...



Wow.   

For a civy, you sure seem to know firsthand the numbers of CF troops deployed on Athena   :

Try closer to 700 during this "operational pause"....


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## canadianblue (7 Jul 2005)

I love all the people on the CBC board that are sprouting all that nonsense about peace and understanding, we should have had peace and understanding for Adolf Hitler too eh :

As well before Iraq, and before 9/11, I thought the United States was taking a more isolationist approach, and wasn't as involved in world affairs as it is now. If the majority of Canadian's shared the same view as those on the board, I'd be packing my bags and leaving for Britian, Australia, or New Zealand.


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## Infanteer (7 Jul 2005)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> As well before Iraq, and before 9/11, I thought the United States was taking a more isolationist approach, and wasn't as involved in world affairs as it is now.



Bill Clinton an isolationist?

Time to go back and start re-reading the 1990's, Futuretrooper.


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## Crimson Army (7 Jul 2005)

I have been saying this everywere but i would like to offer my condolences to the victims of this attack

I would also like to say, I hope this doesn't start another war...and that hopfully Canada doesn't get involved in a pointless war that only creates more hate.


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## KevinB (7 Jul 2005)

Crimson Army said:
			
		

> I would also like to say, I hope this doesn't start another war...and that hopfully Canada doesn't get involved in a pointless war that only creates more hate.



Uhm - we are at war...


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## Crimson Army (7 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Uhm - we are at war...




I meant pointless war, well all war is pointless, but we are helping in afghanistan


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## Slim (7 Jul 2005)

Crimson Army said:
			
		

> well all war is pointless,



Really...

Tell that to Winston Churchill, Sir Isaac Brock and Gen. Lewis MacKenzie!

You're way out of your lane here bud. Take the cotton balls out of your ears and put them in your mouth.

Spend some time reading before weighing in with your "knowledgable" opinions!

Out


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## canadianblue (8 Jul 2005)

> As well before Iraq, and before 9/11, I thought the United States was taking a more isolationist approach, and wasn't as involved in world affairs as it is now.
> 
> Bill Clinton an isolationist?
> 
> Time to go back and start re-reading the 1990's, Futuretrooper.



I was thinking Bush not Clinton. Before 9/11 it didn't seem that Bush was very interested in exporting democracy, freedom, etc. and was more concerned with what was happening on the homefront. This was of course before the terror attacks.



> I meant pointless war, well all war is pointless, but we are helping in afghanistan



Yeah, I'd have to agree, other then ending slavery, nazism, and too some degree communism, war and the threat of war has solved nothing at all.


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## fleeingjam (8 Jul 2005)

392 said:
			
		

> It's not just time for Canada's Muslim population to do it, it's time for the world's Muslim population to do it.



I for one can say what happened today is totally* f#ck!n just WRONG!* This is not the religon of islam it is what some cowardly SOB thinks will him and his group attention. I hope these bastards are derooted and sent straight to heck for what they did. If something like this happened in this country CF or not i would make them pay.

- My prayers and condolonces go out to the people of London, and all people who have been affected.
- Enough said.
EDIT: Damn censors you know what i meant by heck...


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## 1feral1 (8 Jul 2005)

Crimson Army said:
			
		

> I have been saying this everywere but i would like to offer my condolences to the victims of this attack
> 
> I would also like to say, I hope this doesn't start another war...and that hopfully Canada doesn't get involved in a pointless war that only creates more hate.



??

Come on CA, time to give that ole ball bag a squeeze and muster up some testosterone. Keeping your head in the sand is NOT going to solve this war (has been ongoing for years now) against the WEST (yes, that means against you and me), and its bigger than you think.  

With such a spineless attitude, I think the least thing you should do is change your signature under your post. Usually our signatures express something about ourselves in some way. None of us want a full on war, but sadly thats what it takes sometimes to set things straight, and to keep our freedom and way of life which many take for granted.


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## swanita (8 Jul 2005)

Crimson Army said:
			
		

> I have been saying this everywere but i would like to offer my condolences to the victims of this attack
> 
> I would also like to say, I hope this doesn't start another war...and that hopfully Canada doesn't get involved in a pointless war that only creates more hate.



Wouldn't you say that hate is quite a present entity already in existence?  ??? And in too large a quantity? 

But I'm with you in the condolences to all the victims.


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## TCBF (8 Jul 2005)

Thia is typical Fourth Generation Warfare, and the enemy just made another mistake.   Blow up western soldiers in the middle east, and you can claim to be good Muslims driving the Infidels out of the Holy land.   It won't wash with us, but it will in the middle east.   You can also convince westerners - your other target audience - that if their forces were not forward deployed into Muslim nations, they would not be dying.   Two audiences.   Two messages.   One gives you international Muslim aide and support, the other gets people to 'Bring Jonny Home'.

Till you sh_t in their backyard.   You then sway enough people to finally believing that you ARE a threat and have to be taken out.

That's OK, if you can do grievous damage to them.   But what is grievous damage?   Not Pearl Harbour.   Not 9/11.   Not Today.   To keep things in perspective, todays casualty rate is a years worth of Mexican bus crashes or Indian train accidents.   All it will do is get the stiff upper lips out and a re-newed resolve to slot a bunch more bad guys.   Thats it - thats all.

Tom


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## Dale Turner (8 Jul 2005)

With all due respect..We can huff and we can puff but untill we can track down ALL the terrorists EVERWHERE we can only beat them by carrying on. Dont let them think they've driven a stake into the western infidels' heart. Just keep on keepin on. If we give them the impression that they ruined our way of life then they truly are winning this war. 

I'm not saying lets just lie down and take their sh..t. If we have hard concrete intel on who, and where they are I'm all for a good ole fashioned ass kicking. But to carte blanche say "lets go get them scurvy muslim and islam fiends" is just irresponsible.

To the people of Britain and to Londoners in particular... chin up.


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## KevinB (8 Jul 2005)

LET THERE BE NO DOUBT WE ARE AT WAR WITH TERRORISTS.



Red Army? (Crimson Army) I really feel you UTTERLY fail to comprehend the people we are at war with.


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## edadian (8 Jul 2005)

I'll ad my condolences to the rest of yours

As for the posts of this happening here being chaos. You obviously under estimate the Canadian public and the security/ emergency services. We will bury our dead, heal the injured and go back to normal while CSIS, CSE, RCMP, J2 and JTF2 quietly go off and insure those who did it never do it again. Our security services have come along way since the Air India debacle. We don't need a sledge hammer to get this tumor, a scalpel will do.

I watched the CBC coverage earlier and they had a group of Brits at a pub on. These guys had all experienced IRA bombs and had the right idea on this one. Just an inconvenience for all but the immediate victims, it doesn't bother them and shouldn't bother us. A reaction is what the perverter of Islam and other terrorists want.

The real enemy is the house of Saud these people are financing Bin Laden and others with oil money. Let us hit their supply network and take away their recruits by going after the international arms dealers who sell to anyone with cash and the militant clerics who teach the perverted Islam.

I recommend three books for our policy makers; Sun Tzu The Art of War, The Koran and Major General Tony Jeapes SAS Secret War
The cattle drive mentioned in Secret war is worth reading about.


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## Infanteer (8 Jul 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> The real enemy is the house of Saud these people are financing Bin Laden and others with oil money. Let us hit their supply network and take away their recruits by going after the international arms dealers who sell to anyone with cash and the militant clerics who teach the perverted Islam.



House of Saud and bin Laden in cahoots?  That's the first time I've heard that - Osama bin Laden has made constant pronouncements against the House of Saud, labelling them as apostates for allowing the Western military forces to enter the Land of the Two Mosques (Mecca and Medina) during Gulf War I.  He became so adamantly opposed to their actions that the Saudi's put him under house arrest and tried to muzzle him - this is when he snuck off and relocated in the Sudan and then Afghanistan.

He has since declared that the House of Saud is an apostate regime that needs to be overthrown - how this makes them bedfellows is beyond me; perhaps it is a bit of _taquiyya_ (Thanks for the snazzy Arabic word, Dare).


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## edadian (8 Jul 2005)

Infanteer I'm just going by what I've heard, read etc. Saudi Princes are financing the charity fronts of the Bin Laden networks. The House of Saud is the biggest supporters Washabism(sp?) Islam and Bin Ladens spiritual advisor was backed by the Saudis in stirring up trouble in Egypt since the 70s. Even if Prince Faisal is on our side are all of his 6000 male relatives? And why are they the first to manipulate oil prices to harm the west?

Being declared an apostate regime by a popular member of the Islamic extreme may be a means to facilitate moving closer still to the Taliban ideal. But that is for our non-excistant foriegn spy service to figure out. Even the recently held local elections smack of manipulation of the Saudi public. They can now vote for councilors the Royal family will ignore.


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## FastEddy (8 Jul 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> I'll ad my condolences to the rest of yours
> 
> As for the posts of this happening here being chaos. You obviously under estimate the Canadian public and the security/ emergency services. We will bury our dead, heal the injured and go back to normal while CSIS, CSE, RCMP, J2 and JTF2 quietly go off and insure those who did it never do it again. Our security services have come along way since the Air India debacle. We don't need a sledge hammer to get this tumor, a scalpel will do.
> 
> ...




That is the most Blase thing I've read.

Sorry MOD's, but that the way I feel after this Terrible Tragedy


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## KevinB (8 Jul 2005)

I agree wholehearted with FastEddy (wow who would have thought   )

 now on to the edadian second post.
I think the fact that the Saudi's pay off the extremists to conduct stuff outside of Saudi Arabia is the issue people are focusing on -- basically they are morgaging their future, as they pay of their enemies not to bother them at the momenet.

 The House of Saud uses oppression to stay in power and plays off both sides against another for they are a weak and immoral group.  Yes they really upon both at points - but can't allow either the Wahhabists or the US to gain to much power since they'd be done.  The mullahs have no need of them and a democracy would see them in prison (or worse).  Instability in the region is their trump card - they have oil and we need it (western nations) - so we (once again the West not Canada specifically) back them.  The extremists in tunr hate them - but hate us more - and the prince's do side deals to ensure the street of Saudi dont run with blood.

 Personally the March to the Sea routine runs really well in my eyes...


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## winchable (8 Jul 2005)

London is nearly back up and working today with King's cross station only partially shut down and only one underground not running as far as I know!
Everyones still packed into the buses and paddington station looks as busy as ever, more or less giving whoever did this the two-fingers.

Someone said on the news this morning that by Saturday, Londoners will be back to business as usual and the rest will still be affected by it for a long time.
The best example I saw of London upper lip was an old man at a bus shelter a few hours after the attack waiting for a bus that wasn't coming. As it turns out he was not only a Londoner through and through, but a veteran on his way to a meeting with other vets. When the news camera told him the buses weren't running he said:
"Oh I know bloody awful isn't it? I've been here before though, it won't be long, we've been through worse."

The Emergency services have been incredible too I should add, I've heard they've saved hundreds of lives simply because they were so rehearsed and prepared for an attack.

Honestly the English are capable of repressing emotional responses and feelings far worse than this, I say there is no country more emotionally suited to deal with terrorist attacks. There have been no reprisals as of yet and everyone seems to be...really normal about things, is it healthy? Probably not, but it's worked through the blitz and IRA bombings.

I won't go on at length about "what i'd do if I caught 'em, yarr" but I will say that the London underground (and overground) system has every inch covered by close circuit tv, they will probably be able to track whoever did this to their front doors. Textbook in every aspect of it, it's only a matter of time, they were more than prepared.

I think I will take a cue from my fellow countrymen today and get on with it.


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## Infanteer (8 Jul 2005)

I once read an interesting article in Foreign Affairs that described Saudi Arabia as the "schizophrenic state" - Kevin summed that up nicely in his post (which I agree with).

Saudi Arabia is one of keys to solving the problem - if we could move away from being dependent on their oil, we could leave them to their sandpile....


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## KevinB (8 Jul 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Saudi Arabia is one of keys to solving the problem - if we could move away from being dependent on  move them off  their oil, we could leave them to take over  their sandpile .... and open a gas station



Kevin solution in Orange


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## Island Ryhno (8 Jul 2005)

Sorry guys, it's a long article but is informative; it's just the news from today and some updates.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050708/ap_on_re_eu/britain_bombings_12

By PAISLEY DODDS, Associated Press Writer 
1 hour, 13 minutes ago



LONDON - Police on Friday raised the death toll to 50 from London's terrorist bombings but said they hadn't yet been able to reach all of the dead. Commuters reluctantly returned to the Underground, but buses and subways carried fewer riders than normal in the aftermath of four rush-hour blasts. 

ADVERTISEMENT

Sir Ian Blair, commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, said no evidence suggested that the attacks involved suicide bombers but that officials hadn't ruled out the possibility. He said a precise death toll wasn't yet known.

"We know that there are more than 50 fatalities. There is a great difficulty in determining how many fatalities there are because two of the scenes are very difficult in terms of recovery," Blair said.

He said officials still hadn't gotten near the subway cars of the Russell Square station, fearing the tunnel unsafe, and he said the nature of the blast that ripped apart a double-decker bus was making it difficult to establish a death toll there.

London's mass transit system reopened Friday, though some commuters, admitting they were afraid, opted for a taxi. Normally packed double-decker buses carried just a handful of passengers, and many Underground stations were less congested than normal. But others said they had little choice but to board the subway.

"I was scared, but what can you do?" said Raj Varatharaj, 32, emerging from an Underground station. "This is the fastest way for me to get to work. You just have to carry on."

Assistant Police Commissioner Andy Hayman said officials believe the bombs were placed on the floors of the three subway cars that were hit. He said the initial investigation suggests that each bomb had less than 10 pounds of explosives.

Based on evidence recovered from the rubble, investigators believe some of the bombs were on timers, a U.S. law enforcement official said. The official would not further describe the evidence.

Investigators doubt that cell phones â â€ used in the Madrid train attacks a year ago â â€ were used to detonate the bombs in the Underground because the phones often don't work in the system's tunnels, the official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.

Police denied a claim by a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity to The Associated Press who said unexploded devices had been found. British officials attributed the information to the initial confusion on the number of bombs.

Thursday's subway blasts went off within 18 minutes, starting at 8:51 a.m. An explosion ripped the roof off a double-decker bus less than an hour later, attacks that came as world leaders were opening the G-8 summit in Scotland.

More than 700 people were wounded. The police commissioner said 100 victims were hospitalized overnight, 22 in critical condition.

Prime Minister     Tony Blair, who just the day before had been basking in glory of Britain's successful Olympics bid, condemned the attacks and blamed Islamic extremists. Foreign Minister Jack Straw said the attacks bore the hallmark of     Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida, the group responsible for Sept. 11.

Ten of London's 12 subway lines reopened Friday, though service on three was restricted. Bus service was running through central London, except for diversions around blast sites.

Aldona Mosjko, a 21-year-old bagel shop manager from Poland, was among those too frightened to take public transportation Friday. "Normally, I take the bus, but today, I took a taxi. I was a bit afraid," she said.

Stocks opened higher in Europe on Friday, with insurance and travel-related stocks regaining some of the ground they lost on Thursday.     Prince Charles and his wife, the Duchess of York, visited victims on Friday, praising the resilience of the British people in the face of attack.

Some commuters commented on what appeared to be a light police presence at some Underground stations.

"Everyone is very quiet, everybody is a bit anxious," said Anil Patel, 40, a banker. "An obvious (police) presence would have settled your nerves." 

The "Secret Group of al-Qaida's Jihad in Europe" claimed it was behind the attacks, but the claim could not be immediately verified. In a posting on a Web site, the group said the bombings were punishment for Britain's involvement in the war in     Iraq and invasion of     Afghanistan. 

It threatened to attack Italy and Denmark for their support of the U.S.-led coalitions in both countries, too. 

British Home Secretary Charles Clarke said authorities were taking the claim of responsibility seriously, and a senior U.S. counterterrorism official said the posting was considered a "potentially very credible" claim, in part because it appeared soon after the attacks. But no one was certain, and one defense official said it was too early to say. 

Investigators said they would look for evidence in the debris from Thursday's attacks and in the video footage from some 1,800 cameras in London's train stations. 

Charles Shoebridge, a security analyst and former counterterrorism intelligence officer, said detectives will have to watch thousands of hours of video â â€ slowly and carefully. Investigators will try to find on tape the point at which bombs were placed, then trace back the movements of the bomber, a task he said could involve hundreds of cameras. 

The blasts paralyzed the city's public transportation system Thursday, halting subway service, delaying buses and stranding thousands of residents and tourists. 

Scenes of frantic subway passengers covered in soot, some cut and bleeding and flooding out of subway stations flashed across television screens. 

"I didn't hear anything, just a flash of light, people screaming, no thoughts of what it was, I just had to get out of the train," said subway passenger Chris Randall, 28, who was hospitalized with cuts and burns on his face, legs and hands. 

The worst attack on London since World War II brought out a stoicism that recalled Britain under the blitz of the Nazi Luftwaffe. 

As Wednesday's jubilation at winning the 2012     Summer Olympics gave way to the terrible shock of Thursday's attacks, Blair rushed back to the capital and made a televised appeal for unity, praising the "stoicism and resiliency of the British people." 

Both were in evidence across the city, as volunteers helped the wounded from blast sites, commuters lent their phones so strangers could call home, and thousands faced long lines for homeward-bound buses or even longer walks without complaint. 

"As Brits, we'll carry on â â€ it doesn't scare us at all" said tour guide Michael Cahill, 37. "Look, loads of people are walking down the streets. It's Great Britain â â€ not called 'Great' for nothing." 

Security was raised in the United States and around the world. The Bush administration upped the terror alert a notch to code orange for the nation's mass transit systems, and bomb-sniffing dogs and armed police patrolled subways and buses in the capital. 

Much of Europe also went on alert, and Italy's airports raised alert levels to a maximum


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## paracowboy (8 Jul 2005)

Crimson Army said:
			
		

> I have been saying this everywere but i would like to offer my condolences to the victims of this attack
> 
> I would also like to say, I hope this doesn't start another war...and that hopfully Canada doesn't get involved in a pointless war that only creates more hate.


 You keep hoping and sending out positive vibes, dude, I will continue to fight, kill, and possibly die to insure that you will always be able to spout off your incorrect, and uneducated opinions.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (8 Jul 2005)

Two interesting rumours already:
1)  That one of the suicide bombers was one of the recent releases from GITMO (which only occurred after numerous requests by Blair)
2)  That there was significant 'unusual' trading immediately preceding the attack in which large British equity and currency positions were dumped without any new justifying economic data.  If this proves to be true, it would be interesting to see whose accounts these belonged to because it would certainly indicate they had foreknowledge of the attacks.



Matthew.


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## Pencil Tech (8 Jul 2005)

So impressed with the efficiency of the London emergency services. - and so very impressed with the way Londoners carried on with life after the attacks   I guess this is not the first time they have had their day disrupted by crackpots. Terrorists, you will never defeat those people.


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## Guardian (8 Jul 2005)

Just noticed that Spain's holding a moment of silence in "solidarity with Britain"...

I can't help thinking that it's a rather empty and worthless gesture... Spain had its chance to show "solidarity" with Britain and its other allies by not picking up its ball and going home from Iraq after the Madrid massacre.

But they took the cowards' way out. I doubt it would have prevented the London bombings, but it sure demonstrated that killing Western civilians does work in some cases, and probably encouraged those who planned this.

I'm not diminishing the loss the Spanish suffered, but this "solidarity" thing just struck me as cheap sympathy...


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## McG (8 Jul 2005)

Canadians in London have their say - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050708.wsayy0708/BNStory/Front/

London death toll hits 50 - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050708.wlondon0708/BNStory/Front/


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## Cdn Blackshirt (8 Jul 2005)

Guardian said:
			
		

> Just noticed that Spain's holding a moment of silence in "solidarity with Britain"...
> 
> I can't help thinking that it's a rather empty and worthless gesture... Spain had its chance to show "solidarity" with Britain and its other allies by not picking up its ball and going home from Iraq after the Madrid massacre.
> 
> ...



I think the swing vote of the Spanish population may have grown to regret their knee-jerk reaction as they learned the details of the Madrid bombings that came out after the election....In short, that the attack had been planned for years and the "Iraq/Afghanistan/etc." justifications these groups spew (and our useful idiot media and populations regurgitate) are merely the excuses du jour of a murderous cadre of religious zealots (who may or may not be misinterpretting the Quran).



Matthew.


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## a_majoor (8 Jul 2005)

One can only hope that atrocities like this will finally open people's eyes. I found an old article which has some interesting predictions of what a full commitment to the GWOT would look and feel like:



> *Dispatches from a Real War on Terror*
> An alternative reality.
> 
> Back in the 1940s the sci-fi writers Lyon Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt discovered how to travel into alternate universes by reciting the logical axioms that underlie the structure of those universes. They called this mode of transportation the "syllogismobile." After some months' intensive study of the work of these pioneers, I have been able to recreate the syllogismobile for myself, and recently used it to visit an alternate universe in which the U.S.A. has been conducting a real war on terror. Here are some cuttings I brought back from newspapers in that world.
> ...


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## I_am_John_Galt (8 Jul 2005)

Crimson Army said:
			
		

> I meant pointless war, well all war is pointless, but we are helping in afghanistan


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## Scoobie Newbie (8 Jul 2005)

Isn't London the largest survelled city in the world.  Don't they have camera's on almost every corner.  If so I hope they help.


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## mainerjohnthomas (8 Jul 2005)

Crimson Army said:
			
		

> I meant pointless war, well all war is pointless, but we are helping in Afghanistan


       To seek out and eliminate those who plan, train, equip, and order the murder of innocent civilians was the purpose of our war in Afghanistan, and if it is found that the cowards who planned these attacks in the UK did so from some foreign sanctuary, then I would hope the CF would stand shoulder to shoulder with the British in hunting them down.  If the point of the attack was to break the will of the British people, then I think the terrorists have made a grave mistake.  I offer my prayers to the fallen, my support for the survivors, and my admiration for the people of the UK for their resolution in the face of this attack.


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## Acorn (9 Jul 2005)

Why do we persist in using words like "coward?" The people that perpetrated these and other attacks are despicable, but I'm not sure "coward" is an adjective that applies.

Acorn


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## rmc_wannabe (9 Jul 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Why do we persist in using words like "coward?" The people that perpetrated these and other attacks are despicable, but I'm not sure "coward" is an adjective that applies.
> 
> Acorn



That goes the same for militant, fudamentalist, insurgent......

All these synonyms for murderer, just a waste of time and effort.


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## Roy Harding (9 Jul 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Why do we persist in using words like "coward?" The people that perpetrated these and other attacks are despicable, but I'm not sure "coward" is an adjective that applies.
> 
> Acorn



I'm sure it IS.  A "coward" is a person who does not take responsibility for his actions.  One who refuses to stand up, be recognized, and state his purpose.

I will admit that the above definition does NOT fit Osama - he definitely stood up, was recognized, and stated his purpose.

However, those actually doing the dirty deeds do not identify themselves, do not accept responsibility, and do not state their purpose.

They're cowards.


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## Acorn (9 Jul 2005)

So, installing oneself in "enemy" territory and carrying out attacks (whatever the target) is cowardly, unless one stands up and is recognized?

Do I need to point out the "cowards" of the OSS or SOE? Or is "coward" something we can only apply to those who oppose us?

What irks me most about this debate (and related semantic arguments) is that it deflects intellectual effort from the real problem by labellling the enemy in an overly simplistic way. 

Does it surprise you that the enemy regards us as cowardly because we use airpower, which they don't have a reasonable capability to counter? 
"Real men fight with swords, so they can look into each others' eyes. Sometimes this is not possible, so they will use a rifle. But the Europeans use guns that fire many times promiscuously and rend the Earth. There is no honour in this." (Sean Connery as an Arab leader in "The Wind and The Lion" - despite the Hollywood, Arabs tend to follow that sort of philosophy). To them we're cowardly because we use technology and firepower to kill them, and don't send our soldiers into swordfights. As a result, they have chosen to fight any way they can - which includes terror. The fact that we do not regard terror as a legitimate tactic does not invalidate it. In fact, it has worked, which is why they persist in using it.

These "cowards" may have attacked soft targets, but they are living in the land of their enemy. They are risking their lives for their cause.

I say let's figure out who they really are, find out what really motivates them, look for patterns of behaviour, and then send the likes of KevinB in to kill them (well, that's me, an Int REMF - my personal weapon is a battle group with good targetting int). 

Calling them cowards doesn't serve any useful function (well, maybe it provides a sense of superiority), nor does it accurately describe the people we're dealing with.

Acorn


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## P-Free (9 Jul 2005)

Coward, hero, or any other descriptive words of those who fight wars are usually only thrown around by those who take the action in from the sideline ie. civilians. In war there is no right or wrong way to fight, you either live or you die, and you do whatever it takes to victory. When you invade a country everyone becomes your enemy, civilians, men, women and children included, they are all possible attackers.

So with that in mind we have to realize that groups like Al Qaeda have invaded our countries, Canada included. We have each individually become targets. 

With that in mind we should get on with our lives without fear or hate, and stomp Al Qaeda and their ilk, taking no prisoners.


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## 1feral1 (9 Jul 2005)

We are hearing now that 7 Australians have been injured, of that 2 in critical condition, and one has sadly lost an arm.

Also one Australian male is missing, and he is thought to be one of the killed in the Underground. Lets hope that info is wrong, and he turns up hungover from a night out on the town (in typical Aussie fashion).

Meanwhile the hunt for these gutless murdering grubs continues, and I hope they get them soon. No quarter drawn or given, as they are better off with death by lead poisoning, thats rule number 5.56 for those who do not understand.

Regards,

Wes


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## FastEddy (9 Jul 2005)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> That goes the same for militant, fudamentalist, insurgent......
> 
> All these synonyms for murderer, just a waste of time and effort.




Very well. then please inform us how we should discribe them in the future.

HAND.


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## FastEddy (9 Jul 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> So, installing oneself in "enemy" territory and carrying out attacks (whatever the target) is cowardly, unless one stands up and is recognized?
> 
> Do I need to point out the "cowards" of the OSS or SOE? Or is "coward" something we can only apply to those who oppose us?
> 
> ...




As usual, I may be regarded as far out there in left field.

I can assure you that your Intellectual intent has not been missed. But I find that in your closing statements
it tends to get rather PINK (to coin a old phrase).

As for KevinB's suggestions, sounds good to me and maybe its about time we stopped being held hostage.


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## Roy Harding (9 Jul 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> ....
> What irks me most about this debate (and related semantic arguments) is that it deflects intellectual effort from the real problem by labellling the enemy in an overly simplistic way.
> 
> ....



Acorn:

You're right.  Let's stop.

Retired CC


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## rmc_wannabe (9 Jul 2005)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Very well. then please inform us how we should discribe them in the future.
> 
> HAND.



You're right. I have no way of describing these "people". There acts pretty much speak volumes more about who they are and what they consider "right", more then any label I could think up.


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## Dare (9 Jul 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> So, installing oneself in "enemy" territory and carrying out attacks (whatever the target) is cowardly, unless one stands up and is recognized?
> Do I need to point out the "cowards" of the OSS or SOE? Or is "coward" something we can only apply to those who oppose us?
> What irks me most about this debate (and related semantic arguments) is that it deflects intellectual effort from the real problem by labellling the enemy in an overly simplistic way.
> 
> ...


They committed mass murder against unarmed innocent civilians. They are cowards, and they are terrorists. I don't care how much risk goes into their butchery. It's still cowardly. If a guy across the street is a radical who doesn't like me and elects to kill someone I care about to get to me, rather than confronting me, he's a coward too. I don't care if they view airpower as cowardice. It's not.


> I say let's figure out who they really are, find out what really motivates them, look for patterns of behaviour, and then send the likes of KevinB in to kill them (well, that's me, an Int REMF - my personal weapon is a battle group with good targetting int).


There's something I can agree with.


> Calling them cowards doesn't serve any useful function (well, maybe it provides a sense of superiority), nor does it accurately describe the people we're dealing with.


Yes it does. It defines their tactics and defines their ideology. They fear attacking warriors so they pick at the weak, unarmed and innocent.

Terrorists and cowards. Perfect fit. Brave insurgents? Maybe those guys going at US MBT's with RPG's and AK47's in Iraq.


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## 1feral1 (9 Jul 2005)

Irregardless of what we think of these 'grubs' who commit these attrocities against us, and at the end of the day, they are in fact the ENEMY, yes for real, and we should never under-estimate his intelligence and what he is capable of doing, not only in NYC, Washinton, Madrid, London, and Bali, but in our own cities and neighbourhoods. To think that such disgusting acts can only happen 'over there' is complete denial of the truth.

All's I can say, is be vigilent, very vigilent, and never forget what the ENEMY will do to further his cause. In our cities throughout the western world (and in those places where east meets west, Singapore, Malaysia etc), if you think that there is no sympathisers (activists and extremists) for their cause, think again, as you are wrong, for right now they live and breathe in numbers unknown, right in our own countries, and our governments appear to be piss weak, in not wishing to offend, and the bleeding left is crying about civil rights. Whats it gonna take?

Regards,

Wes


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## I_am_John_Galt (9 Jul 2005)

Personally, I'd prefer to call them rat sh*t, but I remember reading this article a while back (check out the date):



> *In What Sense Are Terrorists Cowards?*
> Timothy Noah
> Posted Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001, at 3:08 PM PT
> 
> ...


 http://slate.msn.com/id/1008268


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## Acorn (9 Jul 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> Yes it does. It defines their tactics and defines their ideology. They fear attacking warriors so they pick at the weak, unarmed and innocent.
> 
> Terrorists and cowards. Perfect fit. Brave insurgents? Maybe those guys going at US MBT's with RPG's and AK47's in Iraq.



I'm not about to stand up and lionize them as heros, but I have to say you are most wrong if you think they fear attacking "warriors." 

They attack civilians because it's a tactic that has succeeded in achieving their aims in the past. Terrorism has worked, and continues to work because *we* are cowardly (I use the "we" loosely - society, not individuals, and certainly not likely any individuals here). *We* allow these attacks to influence our actions, often in  precisely the direction terrorists want. Have a look at the newspapers for the past few days and see how many letters to the editor included the usual "withdraw from Iraq" or "terrorism's root cause is poverty" tripe. That's what feeds these people.

Some of them quite possibly are cowards, physical or moral or both (we have some on our side as well, I'm sure). I think it is exceedingly dangerous for us to think of them as cowardly though. I seriously doubt that they'll just pack up and surrender when the Bobbies bust down their door - which is why the British security forces will be fully tooled up and ready for a fight when they do break down that door. THEY aren't going to assume that the opposition are cowards.

I agree 100% with Wes's last post - go ahead and hate these bastards for what they have done, but don't EVER assume they are stupid or cowardly. That will either make it exceedingly difficult for you to find them, fix them and f**k kill them, or, if you do finally find them, it could cost you your life - and your life isn't worth theirs.

Acorn


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## edadian (10 Jul 2005)

Spain proved Acorn's last point. When the Spanish cornerd the suspects they blew the building up. The British know how to take down terror suspects without to much hassle. No chance of the British underestimated the enemy.

As for any attack on Canada it may not come in Canada. The Australians were attacked in Bali and Jakarta not in Australia. I wonder what we have overseas that is vulnerable?


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## 1feral1 (10 Jul 2005)

edadian said:
			
		

> Spain proved Acorn's last point. When the Spanish cornerd the suspects they blew the building up. The British know how to take down terror suspects without to much hassle. No chance of the British underestimated the enemy.
> 
> As for any attack on Canada it may not come in Canada. The Australians were attacked in Bali and Jakarta not in Australia. I wonder what we have overseas that is vulnerable?



Just remember, our security forces have thwarted several attacks here before they have happened, and they continue to watch the suspects and others as you read this. So don't go fooling yourself that Canada along with Australia will not be attacked on our home ground.

We are at the mercy of a well planned attack at our weakest link, and as I have stated before, our Prime Minister, John Howard has publically stated we will be attacked by radical islamics, its not if, but when. One day, the bad guys will find our weakest link and take advantage of it.


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## Blackhorse7 (10 Jul 2005)

SAS must be itching for info.... good hunting.  That's all I have to say about that.


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## 1feral1 (10 Jul 2005)

SASR, Cdo, and the NSWPS TRG   :gunner: :akimbo: :flame: :mg: :sniper: :rocket: :fifty: :soldier:

Sorry about the 'smilies', just venting out some frustration.

Just another infidel (and loving it),

Wes


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## bossi (10 Jul 2005)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Very well. then please inform us how we should discribe them in the future.
> HAND.



Personally, I view the bombers as criminals who have murdered indiscriminately - there can be no honour in killing innocent civilians, and thus they are a disgrace to whatever cause they purport to serve.   I'd be tempted to agree with PM Blair's use of the term "barbarians", except that it would be an insult to the original Barbarians (footnote at bottom). 

Moving on ... it's gratifying to see how Britain is swinging into retaliation mode - amongst other things, an aggressive Info Ops campaign ... (Churchill said "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" - thus, to defeat a terrorist it's necessary to not be terrified ... and, the best defence is a good offence ... especially when every man, woman and child gets onboard ...)

1.   "We're coming to get you."
2.   "The World is united against you."   
3.   "Did we mention that every pair of eyes in Britain, and our allies, are now looking for you ... ?"
4.   "Oh, by the way ... we're coming to get you."

1.   





> No.10 [Downing Street] Operation FIGHBACK - A  £2 BILLION counter-terror operation swung into action within minutes of the first explosion. ...


http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005310418,00.html

2.   





> GLENEAGLES: The world's most powerful leaders united on Thursday to condemn the wave of bombings in London, saying they would not bow to terrorists ... British Prime Minister Tony Blair, summit host, insisted talks would continue despite what he described as `barbaric attacks'. ...


http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/08/stories/2005070806071600.htm

3.   





> Britons urged to help find attackers
> LONDONâ â€Police have called on Britons to be their "eyes and ears" in a hunt for bombers who killed more than 50 people, some of whom remain buried in the wreckage of an unstable and vermin-infested subway tunnel. ...


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1120859414904&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes

4.   





> Extra troops for Afghan border
> (photo caption:   Pakistan already has 70,000 soldiers along the Afghan border)
> Pakistan says it is deploying an additional 4,000 soldiers on its border with Afghanistan to prevent militants from moving across the frontier. ...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4660441.stm


Barbarian footnote (I'm half Barbarian by ancestry, thus ... sort of a "Cliff Claven" commentary ...)



> ... Those who they came in contact with considered them uncivilized, and yet were fascinated by their strength, stamina, force of will, charisma, and versatility.   They were respected by those they befriended, and feared by those who opposed them.   Even within their own society, they fought amongst themselves, seeking supremacy of power and controllership of the lands they acquired.
> 
> In Northern Europe they became known as the Teutons, Norse, Goths, and Celts, and within those tribes arose many sub-tribes.   Settling deep in the regions of Northern Europe, they were forgotten by the various civilizations to the South and East such as Greece, Assyria, Persia, and Egypt.   It was not until the end of the Bronze age and the onset of the Iron Age that the cultures would re-emerge, clashing with those civilizations fronting the Mediterranean Sea; Greece, and Rome.
> 
> Reviled by the Greeks, and both respected and feared by the Romans, these people would time and again engage in battles against those civilizations.   Those of Teutony proved to be indomitable, and even the ones conquered by Rome did not remain under Roman rule for long.   Their fierce, warlike nature and coarse behaviors earned them the name "barbarians", meaning both "illiterates" and "wanderers".   ...



And, the latest headline (reminding us not to underestimate our enemy ...):

*... The deadliest of Thursday's blasts, which took place far below King's Cross station on the Picadilly Line, has so far claimed 21 known dead, but that number is certain to climb because many bodies remain trapped in the wreckage there. ...*

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1120947011737&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home



> *Blasts occurred within seconds, police now say*
> Oakland Ross, staff reporter
> 
> LONDONâ â€Police and transit authorities have dramatically revised the chronology of the three blasts that hit trains on the London Underground on Thursday.
> ...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (10 Jul 2005)

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1121000449370_17?hub=topstories

Three arrested in London under anti-terror law


 CTV.ca News Staff 
  
Updated: Sun. Jul. 10 2005 3:11 PM ET 

British police said they arrested three people Sunday at London's Heathrow Airport under the country's anti-terrorism act, but would not link the suspects to last week's terror attacks.

In a news conference held to outline new details of the investigation into the bombings, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick said it would be "inappropriate and pure speculation to draw any direct linkages to the attack in London."

Although police were careful not to publicly speculate, some authorities warned that they feared more terrorist attacks. 

"The fact is the terrorist threat is a real one as we saw so dramatically and awfully on Thursday," Secretary Charles Clarke, the Cabinet minister responsible for law and order, told BBC television.

"Our fear is of course of more attacks, until we succeed in tracking down the gang which committed the atrocities on Thursday and that's why the number one priority ... has to be the catching of the perpetrators," he added.

Investigators, who revised the timings of the subway blasts Saturday saying they blew up almost simultaneously, are looking at claims of responsibility by two al Qaeda-inspired groups.

Former Metropolitan Police chief John Stevens said he believed the bombers were "almost certainly" British.

"They are also willing to kill without mercy -- and to take a long time in their planning," Stevens wrote in an article in the News of the World newspaper Sunday.

British media said investigators asked their European counterparts, including Europol, to search for Mohamed al-Guerbouzi, a 44-year-old Moroccan who was given asylum in Britain. Europol 
declined to comment on the reports.

However, al-Jazeera, an Arabic news organization, reported on its website that it interviewed al-Guerbouzi, who said British authorities knew his address in London. 

Al-Guerbouzi was convicted in absentia by Morocco in December 2003 for a terrorist attack in Casablanca and sentenced to 20 years in prison. He was never extradited.

According to unidentified investigators cited in The Sunday Times, The Sunday Telegraph and The Mail on Sunday, Mustafa Setmarian Nasar has also emerged as a suspect in the attacks.

He is a Syrian suspected of being al Qaeda's operations chief in Europe and the mastermind of last year's Madrid railway bombings.

The confirmed death toll from the London attacks is at 49, but police believe it will inevitably rise above 50 after search crews remove bodies that are still trapped in the subway system. 

Forensic experts are relying on fingerprints, dental records and DNA analysis to identify the victims. None of the 49 dead have been formally identified yet.

Church leaders address attacks

As search crews continued their recovery efforts, Londoners congregated at memorial services to mourn the dead and missing victims.

In a service to mark the 60th anniversary of the Second World War, the Archbishop of Canterbury, leader of the Church of England, likened the horror of the war to Thursday's attacks.

"Today of all days, we need to reminder that the spirit of murder and humiliation is still abroad," he told worshippers in Westminster Abbey. 

"There is a generation of people for whom the sight of a devastated, bombed London will bring back harsh memories."

At the Vatican, Pope Benedict prayed that God would change the hearts of the perpetrators.

"We pray for the people killed, for those injured and for their loved ones. But we even pray for the attackers: Lord, touch their hearts," Reuters quoted the pope as telling the crowds in St. Peter's Square. 

"To those who foment feelings of hate and carry out such revolting terrorist acts, I say: God loves life, which he created, not death. And I say, stop, in the name of God."


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## 1feral1 (10 Jul 2005)

Talk about misguided, misinformed and BRAINWASHED or we can call it serious denial at best. 

GO to www.islamicsydney.com and lurk around the forums. Try the youth forums too. Hunt down the London bombing threads. I have read a lot of shyte on this website in the post S11 world, but what is said about the London bombings is well, how can I say it, OBCENE to say the least.

Sadly these so called people (I hope ASIO is monitering that site - infact I am sure they are) hare living in my country, and it almost makes me want to spew my guts up in sheer disgust when I read such tripe, and frankly it scares me that these so called 'Australians' are in a state of such anti-west unrest. This would not bother me too much if this unrest was 'over there', but the fact is they are living in a western country, the same as me. Its not hard to figure out who's side there are on.

When there is an attack on us here, a thousand allahs won't save them, and they'll be hunted down and rounded up.

There is a right and a wrong, and the most of us have (even a 5 yr old)  the basic mentality to know whats right, but these people can't tell the difference (they are putting their religion before anything else - thats wrong), they stand in the way of our society in such a manner, that I find horrifiying.

Even in our time, not that long ago, treason was a sentance punnishable by a trip up the gallows. Will common sense prevail? We'll see, already The grand Mufti of Sydney and self appointed Muslim leader of Australia did indeed condem the attack, but then said it happened because of US aggression (go figure). What we need here is sound united leadership, and STRONG language from these ethnic 'leaders', not some extreme islamic puppet, spouting sewerage from his mouth to appease the radicals within.

Regards and shaking head in sheer disgust,

Wes


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## McG (11 Jul 2005)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Bottom Line:   It's time for Canada's Muslim population to step up and in one voice say "This is not acceptable!"....





> Arab editor slams 'charities' raising jihad cash
> The Edmonton Journal
> 10 July 2005
> 
> ...


----------



## McG (11 Jul 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> British police said they arrested three people Sunday at London's Heathrow Airport under the country's anti-terrorism act, but would not link the suspects to last week's terror attacks.





> London police release arrested trio
> Globe & Mail Online
> Sunday, July 10, 2005 Updated at 7:54 PM EDT
> Associated Press
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050710.wbombings0709/BNStory/International/


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## edadian (11 Jul 2005)

Thanks for posting the Arab editor clip MCG. I wish the view of the majority of Arabs and Muslims was reported in the press. We only get the extremist view in the press usually.

I would also like to praise the Queen. She was travelling through London today in an open topped car and standing out on a platform surrounded by people. Not letting terrorists deviate her schedule. That is the type of courage the terrorists don't understand.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Jul 2005)

That editor will be need inside of a month I'm said to say.


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## KevinB (12 Jul 2005)

The editor is one thing, and I credit several of the Muslin "elite" in London with their condemnation - and the fact that they circle London as a target due to the fact it is a PRIME example of a free and diverse society where all religions mingle in peace and harmony.


However there are still groups that are celebrating this attack in public - and we need to kill those people quickly.  Canadians NEED to demand that we (the CF) get out and quite literally shoot these MF's in the face.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Jul 2005)

CANFORGEN 123/05 CDS 061/05 072051Z JUL 05
CANADIAN FORCES RESPONSE TO LONDON EXPLOSIONS
UNCLASSIFIED


REFERENCES: A. NDHQ DCDS INSTRUCTION 5/01 - CF CRISIS RESPONSE PROCESS 
B. DCDS 043 072225Z MAR 03 
C. DCDS 084 062220Z APR 04 
D. DCDS DIRECTION FOR DOMESTIC OPERATIONS (DDDO) 01 APR 05 



AS YOU ARE ALL AWARE, SEVERAL EXPLOSIONS WERE DETONATED IN LONDON IN THE UNITED KINGDOM EARLIER TODAY. IT IS REASONABLY CLEAR AT THIS TIME THAT THE EXPLOSIONS CONSTITUTED AN ACT OF TERRORISM, POSSIBLY TIMED TO COINCIDE WITH THE MEETING OF THE LEADERS OF THE GROUP OF EIGHT INDUSTRIAL NATIONS 


RECENT INTELLIGENCE, ALTHOUGH NOT SPECIFIC, HAS INDICATED THAT AL QAEDA GROUPS COULD BE PLANNING TO CONDUCT ATTACKS AGAINST THOSE NATIONS PARTICIPATING IN OPERATIONS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. EARLY ANALYSIS INDICATES THAT TODAYS EXPLOSIONS IN LONDON BORE THE HALLMARKS OF AN AL QAEDA STYLE ATTACK 


AT THE PRESENT TIME, NO SPECIFIC THREAT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AGAINST CANADA. NOTWITHSTANDING THIS ASSESSMENT, COMMANDERS AT ALL LEVELS ARE REMINDED OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO REMAIN VIGILANT AND ARE DIRECTED TO ENSURE THEIR COMPLIANCE WITH CANADIAN FORCES SECURITY ALERT LEVEL FOUR (SAL) AS OUTLINED AT REFERENCE A. CANALERTCON LEVEL FOUR (4), WITH THE APPLICABLE CRISIS RESPONSE MEASURES (CRMS), FORCE PROTECTION AND READINESS LEVELS WILL REMAIN IN EFFECT, AS PREVIOUSLY DIRECTED AT REFERENCES B AND C 


AS I HAVE COMMUNICATED TO MANY OF YOU PERSONALLY IN RECENT MONTHS, THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CANADIAN FORCES TO PROTECT CANADIANS, DEFEND CANADA AND RESPOND TO ASSIST LEAD CIVIL AUTHORITIES IN TIMES OF CRISIS IS OUR HIGHEST PRIORITY. ALL CANADIAN FORCES PERSONNEL, UNITS AND HEADQUARTERS ARE TO REMAIN VIGILANT AND PREPARED TO RESPOND IF REQUIRED


----------



## Dare (12 Jul 2005)

A few tidbits and some updates.


http://csmonitor.com/2005/0711/p01s04-woeu.html



> A defiant Islam rises among young Britons
> Thursday's attacks turn attention to a group alienated from British society.
> By James Brandon | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor
> LONDON â â€œ Thursday's coordinated terrorist attacks that killed at least 49 people have underscored competing forces within Britain's Muslim community: a minority that advocates violence against Western targets, and those who want to coexist peacefully with Britain's multifaith, multiethnic society.
> ...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1684970,00.html


> And this is why they did it
> Amir Taheri
> There is no way to reason with the terrorists, but the thinking behind their actions is perfectly clear
> THE FIRST QUESTION that comes to mind is: what took them so long? The answer may be that in the past four years the British authorities have succeeded in preventing attacks on a number of occasions. David Blunkett, who was then Home Secretary, was often mocked for suggesting that this was the case.
> ...




http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3111121,00.html


> 'London, Tel Aviv blasts connected'
> 
> German newspaper: Explosive material used by British terrorist who blew himself up on Tel Aviv beachfront in 2003 very likely the same as that used by terrorists who staged London attacks last week, Mossad tells Brits
> By Roee Nahmias and Ronen Bodoni
> ...




http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15898641-2,00.html


> POLICE have raided five locations in West Yorkshire, north-east England in connection with last week's bombings in London, the Metropolitan Police said today.
> The raids are thought to be the first to be carried out in connection with last Thursday's coordinated bomb attacks in London.
> 
> They came as two more victims were identified by their families.
> ...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Jul 2005)

I just heard on the news that they suspect that the 4 bombers are dead and they arrested another.


----------



## dutchie (12 Jul 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> I just heard on the news that they suspect that the 4 bombers are dead and they arrested another.



From the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676577.stm

London bombers 'were all British'  
   
After a day of intensive police activity, detectives say at least one of four suspected London bombers died in last week's Tube and bus blasts. 
Security sources said it was likely three men whose belongings were found at the scenes are dead - there is a question mark about the fourth bomber. 

Explosives were found in Leeds and Luton after a series of dawn raids. 

The BBC's Frank Gardner said it was unlikely the men - who police believe were all British - acted alone. 

  "It appears our youth have been involved in last week's horrific bombings - nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers" - Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Muslim Council of Britain 

Police said they had arrested a relative of one of the four suspects in Yorkshire and taken them to London for questioning. 

Four bombs - three on the London Underground and one on a bus in Tavistock Square in the city centre - killed at least 52 people on Thursday. 

Sir Iqbal Sacranie of the Muslim Council of Britain said they had received the latest news from the police with "anguish, shock and horror". 

Breakthrough 

He said: "It appears our youth have been involved in last week's horrific bombings against innocent people. 

"While the police investigation continues we reiterate our absolute commitment and resolve to helping the police bring to justice all involved in this crime of mass murder. Nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers." 

The breakthrough in the anti-terror investigation came after a day of raids in West Yorkshire and the seizure of a car at Luton rail station. 

The raids, which began at 0630BST, centred on two properties in Dewsbury and four in Leeds. 

They were carried out after the discovery on Monday night of CCTV images showing the four men at King's Cross station just before 0830BST on the day of the attacks. 

The images showed the men, who had boarded a Thameslink train at Luton, carrying rucksacks. 

Explosives were later found in the car at Luton, where experts carried out five controlled explosions as a cordon was erected around the station. 

Police removed the explosives from the vehicle and were expected to destroy them later on Tuesday night. 

A second car believed to be linked to the attacks was found at Leighton Buzzard, 10 miles (16km) west of Luton. 

Bedfordshire Police were examining it after receiving a tip-off from the Metropolitan Police. They refused to say exactly where the car was found. 

Met Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said the searches, carried out under the Terrorism Act, were intelligence-led and "directly connected" to last week's attacks. 

There is no identity for the fourth bomber and police do not know if his remains are at the King's Cross blast site or if he has fled. 

Head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch Peter Clarke said documents identifying three of the men were found near three blast sites. 

Three of the four men were from the West Yorkshire area, said Mr Clarke. 

His colleague, assistant commissioner Andy Hayman, said: "I want to conclude by making it absolutely clear that no-one should be in any doubt the work last Thursday is that of extremists and criminals. 

"No-one should smear or stigmatise any community with these acts." 

Following developments on Tuesday he described the investigation as "complex and intensive" and "moving at great speed". 

Police said there was forensic evidence that one of the bombers died in the Aldgate explosion. 

Property belonging to one of the suspects from West Yorkshire, who was reported missing by his family just after 10am on Thursday, was found on the devastated bus. 

Police have established that man was joined on his journey to London by three other men. 

The second man's property was found at the scene of the Aldgate blast and the third man's belongings at both the Aldgate and Edgware Road blasts. 

Mr Clarke said: "We are trying to establish their movements in the run up to last week's attacks and specifically to establish if they all died in the explosions." 

Eleven victims of the blasts have now been formally identified. 

One inquest has been opened and adjourned, that of Susan Levy, 53, from Hertfordshire. 

Eight more will be opened on Wednesday, including those of Jamie Gordon, 30, and Phillip Russell, 29, who were named on Tuesday. 

A further two inquests will open on Thursday. 

Police are asking for anyone with information on the bombs to contact their anti-terrorist hotline on 0800 789 321.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Jul 2005)

The one family of one of the alleged bombers was in Britain for over 20 years.


----------



## Spr.Earl (14 Jul 2005)

What I'm worried about is the announcement of "NEW LAWS" that Tony Blair is looking for!!!
The U.K. handled the IRA threat very well, but why the need new laws?
Smoke and Mirrors?
Loss of Liberty?

Before you all start I lived in the the U.K. in the 70's ,school kids,adverts on the telly advisning every one to look,for we all knew!!

This is over blown in imoi.


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## Dare (14 Jul 2005)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> What I'm worried about is the announcement of "NEW LAWS" that Tony Blair is looking for!!!
> The U.K. handled the IRA threat very well, but why the need new laws?
> Smoke and Mirrors?
> Loss of Liberty?
> ...



You mean, something like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4673301.stm


> Religious hate law clears Commons
> Government attempts to clamp down on expressions of religious hatred have cleared the Commons, but are set for a rocky ride in the House of Lords.
> 
> MPs gave the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill a third reading by 301 votes to 229, a majority of 72.
> ...


----------



## McG (14 Jul 2005)

> Tape links London attack to British suicide bombers
> _Matthew Fisher
> CanWest News Service; with files from The Associated Press
> July 13, 2005_
> ...






> London police searching for blasts' mastermind: reports
> _By TERRY WEBER
> Wednesday, July 13, 2005 Updated at 2:11 PM EDT
> Globe and Mail Update._
> ...


----------



## 1feral1 (15 Jul 2005)

This just in from Sky in London www.sky.com, that sadly the first Australian has died of wounds from the London attacks. He was on the bus No.30. The death toll is now 54.

The Australian, identified today as Sam Lee, was from Melbourne, in Australia's southern state of Victoria. 

I really don't know what else to say, with the exception, lets hunt down the mastermind, who according to Sky has weasled himself out of England, or has disappeared into the abyss of his own ethnic community, hiding like a wounded dingo.

I guess we'll just see where one's loyalty lies, won't we.  :rage:

Regards,

Wes


----------



## Island Ryhno (15 Jul 2005)

May have found the bastard.

Chemist Denies Any Role in London Attacks By BRIAN MURPHY and SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writers 
12 minutes ago



LEEDS, England - Authorities arrested an Egyptian chemist who studied in the United States, and they investigated a possible al-Qaida connection in Pakistan as the search widened for those behind London's suicide bombings, officials said Friday. 

Magdy Mahmoud Mustafa el-Nashar, 33, who was arrested in Cairo, denied any role in the attacks, the Egyptian Interior Ministry said in a statement. He was taken into custody after the July 7 transit bombings and was being questioned, it said.

No charges have been filed against him. London police said a man has been arrested in Cairo, but they would not confirm his name or characterize him as a suspect in the attacks that killed at least 54 people, including four bombers.

Also Friday, police in Leeds raided a shop selling Islamic books and DVDs just blocks from where at least two of the four suicide bombers lived, and they seized materials.

Muslim leaders have said the young bombers might have been inspired by radical literature. It was not immediately clear whether any of the four bombers had links to the shop, but neighbors speculated that the owner or manager may have met the suspects there.

An earlier search of a flat in Leeds rented by el-Nashar found evidence of explosives similar to those used in the failed 2001 shoe-bombing plot involving Richard Reid, according to The Times of London.

U.S., British and Egyptian officials had been in contact concerning el-Nashar following the blasts, according to an Egyptian government official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was providing information not in the ministry's statement.

El-Nashar was vacationing in Egypt and had intended to go back to Britain to continue his studies, the ministry said, without specifying the date he was taken into custody.

"El-Nashar denied having any relation with the latest events in London. He pointed out that all his belongings remained in his apartment in Britain," it said.

British and     FBI officials had been looking for el-Nashar, who recently taught chemistry at Leeds University, north of London.

Leeds University said el-Nashar arrived in October 2000 to do biochemical research sponsored by the National Research Center in Cairo, Egypt. It said he earned a doctorate May 6.

FBI agents in Raleigh, N.C., had joined the search for el-Nashar. North Carolina State University spokesman Keith Nichols said a person named el-Nashar studied there as a graduate student in chemical engineering in early 2000.

Detectives who searched el-Nashar's flat found signs that quantities of a compound called TATP, or triacetone triperoxide, had been converted into a powerful explosive, the Times of London reported.

In 2001, Reid used an improvised shoe bomb rigged with TATP, which is difficult for bomb-sniffing dogs to detect, when he tried to board an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami and blow it up over the Atlantic. Reid was subdued by passengers when he tried to detonate the explosive. He pleaded guilty to U.S. charges and is serving a life sentence.

TATP is a highly unstable explosive made from commercially available chemicals.

A spokeswoman for London's Metropolitan Police refused to comment on the report or say what type of explosive was used in the attacks.

Andy Oppenheimer, an explosives expert with Jane's Information Group, said TATP is strong enough to have caused the damage wreaked by last week's bombs.

But he added that making such a highly volatile explosive stable enough to carry out closely synchronized attacks would have required advanced knowledge of chemistry. Police say the three subway blasts happened within a minute. 

The New York Times and the British Broadcasting Corp. also reported that TATP was found in a search of a Leeds home. 

Earlier, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said investigators were hunting the organizers of the London transit attacks â â€ perpetrated by what he called "foot soldiers" â â€ and confirmed police were focusing on a Pakistan connection. 

Three of the bombers who carried out last week's terror strikes were Britons of Pakistani descent. Pakistani intelligence officials said Friday that local authorities are looking into a connection between one of the three and two al-Qaida-linked militant groups in that country. 

Blair told the BBC that police believed they would discover an al-Qaida connection to the blasts. 

"What we expect to find at some stage is that there is a clear al-Qaida link, a clear al-Qaida approach, because the four men who are dead, who we believe are the bombers, are in the category of foot soldiers," Blair said. 

Authorities in Pakistan, meanwhile, were looking into a connection between one of the London suicide bombers and two al-Qaida-linked militant groups in Pakistan, including a man arrested for a 2002 attack on a church near the U.S. Embassy, two senior intelligence officials said. 

The investigation is focusing on at least one trip that 22-year-old Shahzad Tanweer made to Pakistan in the past year, said the officials, who work at two separate intelligence agencies and are involved in the investigation. They spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the secretive nature of their jobs. 

One of the officials said that while in Pakistan, Tanweer is believed to have visited a radical religious school run by the banned Sunni Muslim militant group Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. 

The sprawling school in Muridke, 20 miles north of Lahore, has a reputation for hostility. Journalists who have traveled to the school in the past have been threatened and prevented from entering. 

Lashkar-e-Tayyaba was banned by Pakistan for alleged links to a 2001 attack on India's Parliament. 

ABC News, citing unidentified officials, reported that the attacks were connected to an al-Qaida plot planned two years ago in Lahore. Names on a computer that authorities seized last year from Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan, an alleged Pakistani computer expert for al-Qaida, matched a suspected cell of young Britons of Pakistani origin, most of whom lived near Luton, where the alleged suicide bombers met on their way to London shortly before last week's blasts, according to the report. 

Authorities have now discovered ties between Mohammed Sidique Khan â â€ one of the July 7 bombers â â€ and members of that cell who were arrested last year, ABC said. 

In another international development in the inquiry, Jamaica's government said it was investigating a Jamaican-born Briton as one of the bombers. Reports identified him as Lindsey Germaine. 

On Thursday, police released closed-circuit TV video showing one of the four suicide bombers â â€ 18-year-old Hasib Hussain â â€ wearing a backpack as he passed through the Luton train station on his way to London. 

Hussain allegedly set off the bomb that killed 14 people aboard the bus. That blast occurred nearly an hour after three London Underground trains blew up, and investigators don't yet know what Hussain did during that hour or when he boarded the bus. 

Trying to map out Hussain's movements, police appealed for information from anyone who may have seen him in or around King's Cross station, where the four parted ways. 

Police officially identified two of the suicide bombers Thursday â â€ Hussain and Tanweer, whom they say attacked a subway train between Liverpool Street and Aldgate stations. 

News reports have identified the fourth bomber as 30-year-old Mohammed Sidique Khan.


----------



## 1feral1 (15 Jul 2005)

Why I can never sleep in on a day off, who knows. Its just before 0630 here on Sat morning, and I have just heard this news on Sky.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## dutchie (15 Jul 2005)

New from the Global site - Bombers possibly linked to Pakistani AQ cells. Here's the story...

LONDON (AP) - Investigators are looking into whether there's a link between the men who carried out the London bombings and Pakistan-based cells of the al-Qaida terror network, the city's police chief said Friday, as Egyptian authorities arrested a chemist in connection with the attacks. 

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said investigators were hunting the organizers of last week's four suicide attacks - carried out by what he called "foot soldiers" - and confirmed police were focusing on a Pakistan connection. 

Blair told British Broadcasting Corp. radio that police believed they would discover an al-Qaida connection to the blasts that killed at least 54 people. 

In Egypt, authorities arrested Magdi el-Nashar early Friday, an Egyptian official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because an official announcement of the information had not yet been made. El-Nashar, who studied at North Carolina State University in the United States and the University of Leeds in northern England, was being interrogated by Egyptian authorities, the official said. 

A statement from London's Metropolitan Police said, "We're aware of an arrest in Cairo, but we are not prepared to discuss who we may or may not wish to interview in connection with this investigation (into the London bombings)." 

"This remains a fast-moving investigation with a number of lines of inquiry, some of which may have an international dimension," London's police said. 

Three of the bombers who carried out last week's terror strikes were Britons of Pakistani origin. Pakistani intelligence officials said Friday that local authorities were looking into a connection between one of the three Britons and two al-Qaida-linked militant groups in that country. 

"What we expect to find at some stage is that there is a clear al-Qaida link, a clear al-Qaida approach, because the four men who are dead, who we believe are the bombers, are in the category of foot soldiers," Commissioner Blair told British Broadcasting Corp. radio. 

Authorities in Pakistan were looking into a connection between one of the London suicide bombers and two al-Qaida-linked militant groups in Pakistan, including a man arrested for a 2002 attack on a church near the U.S. Embassy, two senior intelligence officials said. 

The investigation is focusing on at least one trip that 22-year-old Shahzad Tanweer made to Pakistan in the past year, said the officials, who work at two separate intelligence agencies and are involved in the investigation. They spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the secretive nature of their jobs. 

One of the officials said that while in Pakistan, Tanweer is believed to have visited a radical religious school run by the banned Sunni Muslim militant group Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. 

The sprawling school in Muridke, 35 kilometers (20 miles) north of the eastern city of Lahore, has a reputation for hostility. Journalists who have traveled to the school in the past have been threatened and prevented from entering. Lashkar-e-Tayyaba was banned by Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf for alleged links to a 2001 attack on India's Parliament. 

British and FBI officials investigating the possible al-Qaida connection in the London attacks were also looking into the Egyptian-born el-Nashar, who studied in the United States. 

ABC News, citing unidentified officials, reported that the attacks were connected to an al-Qaida plot made two years ago in Lahore, Pakistan. Names on a computer that authorities seized last year from Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan, an alleged Pakistani computer expert for al-Qaida, matched a suspected cell of young Britons of Pakistani origin, most of whom lived near Luton, where the alleged suicide bombers met up on their way to London shortly before last week's blasts, according to the report. 

Authorities have now discovered ties between Mohammed Sidique Khan - one of the July 7 bombers - and members of that cell who were arrested last year, ABC said. 

FBI agents in Raleigh, North Carolina, had been involved in the search for el-Nashar, a 33-year-old former North Carolina State University graduate student. The doors were locked Thursday at the building at Leeds University where he recently taught chemistry. 

And in a further international development in the inquiry, Jamaica's government said it was investigating a Jamaican-born Briton as one of the bombers. 

Britain paid tribute Thursday to those killed in the attacks with two minutes of silence. 

One of the bombers identified by police as Hasib Hussain, 18, allegedly set off the bomb that killed 14 people aboard the bus. That blast occurred nearly an hour after three London Underground trains blew up, and investigators don't yet know what Hussain did during that hour or when he boarded the bus. 

Trying to map out Hussain's movements, police appealed for information from anyone who may have seen him in or around King's Cross station, where the four suspects parted ways. They released a closed-circuit television image showing him wearing a large camping-style backpack as he strode through a train station in Luton, outside London, about 2 1/2 hours before he allegedly blew up the No. 30 bus. He had a mustache and wore jeans, a white shirt, and a dark zip-up top or jacket. 

A separate photo of his face showed him with a beard, looking straight ahead. 

"Did you see this man at King's Cross?" Peter Clarke, head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch, asked in a televised appeal. "Was he alone or with others? Do you know the route he took from (King's Cross) station? Did you see him get on to a No. 30 bus? 

The young men traveled together from Luton to King's Cross just before the blasts, police said. 

Police officially identified two of the suicide bombers Thursday - Hussain and Tanweer, whom they say attacked a subway train between Liverpool Street and Aldgate stations. 

Both were Britons of Pakistani ancestry, as was 30-year-old Mohammed Sidique Khan. Reports say the fourth attacker was Jamaican-born Briton Lindsey Germaine. 

Jamaican Foreign Affairs Ministry spokesman Wilton Dyer said officials were waiting for Britain to confirm the identity of the suspect before they could help in identifying his possible origins in Jamaica. 

http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=de29efba-a594-40dc-8678-bdc61a90b4c4&page=1



Not that this should surprise anyone after it was reported that the bombers had travelled to Pakistan (and Afghanistan) recently. Hopefully Scotland Yard continues to progress well in their investigation and find the 'murderous scumbags' who planned this...


----------



## 1feral1 (15 Jul 2005)

Hummm, the plot thickens.


----------



## Dare (17 Jul 2005)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050716/KHAWAJA16/Front/Idx



> Held without bail in Ottawa prison, this man may help Britain unravel its domestic menace
> 
> By COLIN FREEZE
> 
> ...


----------



## a_majoor (19 Jul 2005)

The bombers may not have been suicide bombers after all, but dupes who did not know they were also going to be added to the body count:



> *Was It Suicide?*
> Reconsidering 7/7.
> 
> "So maybe it wasn't a suicide attack after all?"
> ...


----------



## KevinB (19 Jul 2005)

Abu punching holes in that theory.

Lightfigher AT expert on that...

Malcom has written books on T work/recognition and is a recognized expert.


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## bonitabelle (21 Jul 2005)

I just saw this and thought I should post it.

LONDON, England (CNN) -- At least one person has been injured following three small explosions on London's transport system, police say.

The incidents came two weeks to the day since bombs on three Underground trains in London and a double-decker bus killed 56 people including four bombers. 

CNN's Matthew Chance said police told him a device exploded in or around Warren Street Tube station in the center of the British capital.

The area around the station has been sealed off and the Bomb Squad is on the scene to check for other explosive devices. 

Transport Police told ITN there was an injury at Warren Street. There are no other reports of casualties. 

Scotland Yard is also reporting an incident on a bus at Hackney Road and Columbia Road in east London. A witness said the bus is still intact and a bomb-sniffing dog was on the scene.

An explosion blew out the windows of a bus in the Hackney area of London on Thursday but there were no reports of injuries, bus operator Stagecoach said.

"The driver heard a bang he believed came from the upper desk of the bus. The windows were blown out. There are no reports of any injuries," a Stagecoach spokesman said.

Police said initially they were not treating the evacuations as a "major incident." 

A Scotland Yard spokesperson told CNN that Warren Street, Shepherds Bush and Oval stations had all been evacuated. 

London Underground confirmed that services on three lines -- Victoria, Northern and Hammermith and City -- were suspended following the incidents, according to PA. 

Ambulances were called to Oval station at 12:38 p.m. (7:38 a.m. ET), and sent three vehicles. At 12:45 p.m., a call came in from Warren Street. Five vehicles were sent there.

The ambulance service had no details on the Shepherd's Bush station incident.

Bryce Elder, a witness near the Shepherd's Bush station, said there was a heavy police presence but "no real sense of panic."

Police helicopters flew overhead and areas near Shepherd's Bush station were evacuated. Elder said the station was not very busy.

CNN London producer Katie Turner reported a heavy police presence near the Oval station, including about 30 police vehicles. Roads about 500 meters from the station have been blocked off to vehicular traffic, she said.

The White House said President George W. Bush has been informed of the incidents.


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## Devlin (21 Jul 2005)

Could these be copycats and not al Queda, checking around no one was claimed responsibility as of yet. Still early in the game though.

It's anyone's guess really whether they are copycat attacks.


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## Jaxson (21 Jul 2005)

yea the news is saying it doesnt seem as co-ordinated and the subway system hit today were much smaller then the ones hit before, the bombs seemed to be more complex, they think they found One suicide bomber still alive and rushed him to hospital. and apparently they caught a man who ran at the gate of the prime ministers house but he got whipped to the ground and taken away


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## Pearson (21 Jul 2005)

CNN in "Speculation mode" now...


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## Hunter911 (21 Jul 2005)

I was just watching a CBC news report with the London Police Chief, and he said there were actually four explosions as of right now.


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Jul 2005)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/21/london-050721.html


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## Gramps (21 Jul 2005)

CNN is almost always in "Speculation mode" when they are not in "I Need More Ratings Mode" or "OOOOPS maybe we should retract that statement because the info give was false Mode". They are the last news agency I go to for any info.


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## Devlin (21 Jul 2005)

That Brit Stiff Upper Lip refuses to be beaten down ... good to see 


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1702857,00.html


*Quote from the second page of the article*


> Another man, who declined to give his name, said: â Å“It's become part of life, I'm very calm about it. They want to terrorise us, so we must not let them.â ?


----------



## Gunnar (21 Jul 2005)

Hurricanes, volcanoes and earthquakes are part of life.  They don't make us hide in our holes hoping they'll never happen to us....they're just forces of nature.  They happen, without any sort of pretense of purpose, and we react to them.  They don't change our day to day lives in any way, apart from avoiding certain neigbourhoods in certain seasons.  Hell, poisonous snakes are much the same...we deal with them or eliminate them as vermin wherever possible.

Similarly, terror attacks happen.  You can't hide from them, they happen for no reason (or worse, for the reason that we are free, independent, democratic people, i.e., because we are what we are).  We will deal with terrorists as the vermin they are, but they certainly won't change anything--they don't really have a 'cause'.  They are simply predatory animals who are inimical to civilized life.  

My refusal to grant these people moral standing, or to think of them as anything other than mindless killers protects me and my way of life.  If I thought of them as human beings, I might get angry and do something disproportionate to innocent people.  Handling problems rationally, with measured force is the hallmark of the free nations, particularly the West.  I intend to carry on that tradition.  And I will support my government as they eliminate the vermin which cause this problem.  Wild bears don't roam the streets of Toronto, and when one shows up, we call Animal Control.  We don't let them continue to depredate our land.  Criminals don't have free reign to destroy the fabric of society...when laws are broken, we call the police to eliminate the threat.  And if our police, army and intelligence community can eliminate a bunch of terrorists, well hooray for civilized life.

Terrorism really has no more impact that a scourge of rats or locusts...bad for the population, eliminate the source as you can.

Torstar and company would call this mindset "dehumanizing the enemy".  They fail to realize it is because such people have dehumanized themselves that they deserve this treatment....you treat a wild bear as a wild bear, you treat a criminal as a criminal, and you treat homicidal maniacs as homicidal maniacs.  When these people are prepared to live in civilized society (and might I add, to the extent that they do so even before their crimes), we have treated them as equals.  It is when they say they can no longer live in a civilized manner that civilization needs to take action to protect itself.  We do.

Of course, there is one thing worse that "dehumanizing the enemy".  That's a process of dehumanizing the victims...where women and children being blown up is somehow justifiable because the actions of small-minded killers habitually get them bloody noses.  Little Johnny got his leg blown off, but that's OK, because Achmed was upset that the Israelis put his brother in jail for attempting to blow up a bus....Achmed had a bad childhood, so innocent people with happy childhoods somehow deserve to die...


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## mover1 (21 Jul 2005)

Good point Gunnar

Please refer to this thread before the Avitar Nazi's go after you though. I felt bad for this guy and I would hate to see anyone else fall under the same ill treatment.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32330.0.html


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## swanita (21 Jul 2005)

I thought that security was increased after the first incident? Or was that just a temporary thang? I hope they catch the SOBs who're doing this.....or these things as some people have suggested a copycat.   :threat:


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## Gunnar (21 Jul 2005)

> Please refer to this thread before the Avitar Nazi's go after you though. I felt bad for this guy and I would hate to see anyone else fall under the same ill treatment.



If you read my profile, you'll see why I use it.  And because my avatar also loudly proclaims that I am a civilian, and because I never pretend to actually BE RCR, I haven't been given too hard a time about it.  As was pointed out in the thread you referenced, nothing forbids me from using the Avatar...

In fact, at one time this site used to give TI "ranks" to people of long standing...I usually made a point of changing "old soldier" back to "civilian".  I am a dilletante, and do not pretend to be anything else.  However, some real soldiers on this site seem to believe I'm relatively switched on, and they haven't given me too hard a time about it so far.

Like anything else, badges and rank are something you should use with sensitivity towards what you are trying to portray.  You won't see me using any elements of rank at any time because of this.


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## mover1 (21 Jul 2005)

Cool. I wasn't hacking on you or anything. Just the tolerance level on here is pretty low these days. All the cadets are in camp and the hostility normally directed to them is being disseminated elswhere and at random.


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## Gunnar (21 Jul 2005)

And here I thought you were simply not passing a fault...

...and now, back to London, before a mod splits this off...

Gunnar


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## a_majoor (21 Jul 2005)

> *Terror in the Tube, Again*
> Two terrorist attacks in London in as many weeks bring our struggle into sharp focus.
> 
> By John F. Cullinan
> ...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (21 Jul 2005)

mover1 we hack on everyone equally.  ;D


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## Pearson (22 Jul 2005)

I hope everyone reacted as I did with a fist pump and a hell yeah, when they heard that at least one of the wanna-be martyrs was chased down and beaten by some of the crowd before the police arrived. 

 :threat:

I just hope that it was not a case of mistaken identity.


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## 1feral1 (22 Jul 2005)

So,there I was last night, it was about 2245 on the 21st (Thu) here in Australia, getting ready to hi the 'farter' when suddenly a direct feed of ITV news starts flowing in on the 7 Network. I was in bed, and got up to watch FOXNews, CNNI, BBC and Sky to watch it all unfold. So it was a late one.

Many have become complacient, and many thought the 7-7 was a one off, and I (like many here) was NOT suprised that another attack was on. So, as today has rolled along we get the updates here on 1116 4GB AM radio Brisbane.

Although we are pleased that there was no one killed, I am sure as the sun will rise tomorrow that these attacks are linked, and there will be more, and the spawning of a new 'clean skin' brigade of these homicide bombers will set a new trend in other western countries by these misguided muslims, as they seem to prey on the young and impressionable to carry out these evil deeds.

Its just a matter of time before we too are attacked by these godless savages, who again have hijacked a religion to further their twisted acts against innocent civilains, and the west. No its not about Allied involvement in Iraq. We were targeted long before the invasion. This is a war agisnt the west, but its a democracy, and we are all entitled to our opinions.

Yes these 4 new weenies will no doubt be caught (reports of one being caught already) more sooner than later. Lets just hope they are not harboured in their own ethnic ghettos by others who seem more often then not, turn a blind eye to these radicals. Meanwhile in Sydney, several muslim book stores in the ghettos of Lakemba and other western Sydney shitholes, islamic books on suicide bombings and the preperation and promotion for such have been for sale. many copies have been sold. 

The police are on to them now, and muftis etc are in damage control, as the gap between us and them widens even more so. One store owner proclaimed he had no idea what the books were and what they were about. What bullshit, he would not have ordered them if he did not think they would sell. Just how stupid to they think we are.

My 2 cents.

Wes


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## Edward Campbell (22 Jul 2005)

This just in from this morning's _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050722.w3bomb0722/BNStory/International/


> London police shoot man at subway station
> 
> Friday, July 22, 2005
> Updated at 6:15 AM EDT
> ...



Well done: the Metropolitain Police!


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## Horse_Soldier (22 Jul 2005)

S_Baker said:
			
		

> I was wondering if everyone thought this is empty rhetoric?



I suppose the left-leaning intelligensia thinks it is kind of a cute, metaphorical statement, not to be taken too seriously. I call it a clear war aim.  The man is serious about it, and so should we be.


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## Edward Campbell (23 Jul 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> ...
> Well done: the Metropolitan Police!



Well, maybe not so well done after all; the news reports, this afternoon, are saying the victim was "unrelated" to the incidents - perhaps an innocent Brazilian man who was just in the wrong place (a house where Muslim terror suspects are known to live) at the wrong time and who, perhaps not knowing the language or being a petty criminal etc, panicked and ran.


----------



## Britney Spears (23 Jul 2005)

> Well, maybe not so well done after all; the news reports, this afternoon, are saying the victim was "unrelated" to the incidents - perhaps an innocent Brazilian man who was just in the wrong place (a house where Muslim terror suspects are known to live) at the wrong time and who, perhaps not knowing the language or being a petty criminal etc, panicked and ran.



Could be, but then, it's also possible that the "policemen" were plainclothed SAS troops from the Counter Terrorist Wing who had been tracking this terrorist for days through London and were forced into action,and the gov't is just keeping mum  while both terrorist and "polce" are whisked off to Hereford.

<Hits eject button and watches the thread spiral away in flames....>


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## 1feral1 (23 Jul 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> Well, maybe not so well done after all; the news reports, this afternoon, are saying the victim was "unrelated" to the incidents - perhaps an innocent Brazilian man who was just in the wrong place (a house where Muslim terror suspects are known to live) at the wrong time and who, perhaps not knowing the language or being a petty criminal etc, panicked and ran.


If he would have done what he was told, and stopped, he would be alive today. A guy runs from a suspected bombers residence, wearing a long heavy coat on a hot day, runs into a train stn, boards a train, with a bunch of police hot on his tail. Shot 5 times in the head. Why? Because the police feared he may have been 'bombed up', and did not want to fire into his centre of mass. They no doubt feared he would detonate another bomb on a train full of people, and after 2 attacks in 2 wks ( 700+ injured and 56 KILLED, you can't blame them for wanting to prevent such an attorcity from repeating itself.

Could not understand english? BALLS! I don't buy that for a second. Everyone knows what 'stop' and 'halt' mean, plus its the police, and the body language they were presenting. Anyone with one gram of common sense knows what that means.

The question, why was he in that residence, and why did he run and not stop? There is more to this than we understand, even though the police are now down playing this. The London Police are calling this an unfortunate incident, but again at the end of the day, he just should have DONE WHAT HE WAS TOLD, and stopped long before he ran into the stn, he would still be breathing. I have no pity for this man.

I'll say this, good on the police for acting the way they did. For those that whinge, wine, drip, and complain about innocence and civil rights etc, if he would have blew himself up, then you'd be saying why didn't the police shoot him?

It looks like Egypt pays the price today. 88 killed by another islamic co-ordinated attack against the west (known resort were westerners go). Who's next?

Wes


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jul 2005)

Agree with you 110% Wesley H. Allen


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## 1feral1 (23 Jul 2005)

Thanks CFL!

EDITed for spelling and other stupid mistakes.

Here is today's paper. The threat to us is VERY real.

May I suggest those in Canada who think they are immune, to think again. This cancer is in every western country which has muslims, but the dangerous one's are the minority of these savages. I pity the moderate ones should an attack come here, as sadly they'll all be tarred with the same brush, and in fact this might be what the enemy wants is to cause this unrest

DON'T think it cannot happen where you live.

Be vigilant, and don't be afraid to report anything suspicious to the nearest detachment of the RCMP or police wherever you are. 

Cheers,

Wes


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## mainerjohnthomas (24 Jul 2005)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Edward Campbell on Today at 16:37:51
Well, maybe not so well done after all; the news reports, this afternoon, are saying the victim was "unrelated" to the incidents - perhaps an innocent Brazilian man who was just in the wrong place (a house where Muslim terror suspects are known to live) at the wrong time and who, perhaps not knowing the language or being a petty criminal etc, panicked and ran.

     Funny thing about people from the second and third world, they really do believe that the nice officer with the submachine gun will cut them in half if they do not instantly obey.  Innocent people obey, and bitch about why this always happens to them, and possibly call a lawyer to raise hell, they DO NOT RUN. Its the way most of the world works.  I have many friends from similar happy places, and have been in one or two myself.  Only in the west would an innocent or minor criminal be dumb enough to run from police with guns drawn.  If this man ran from police with drawn weapons, charged into the tubeways, in post bombing London; even if he was visiting from another planet, he had to know the police would have to kill him rather than allow him to escape with a trainload of possible victims into the tubeways.  The fact that the police took him out with headshots implies firstly that they had good reason to believe he was a bomber (details of which are restricted for security reasons) and secondly that the cops following him were not your average bobbies (five for five headshots are not amateur hour).


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## Scoobie Newbie (24 Jul 2005)

I know I'm talking out my ass but maybe the SAS are doing so domestic work.


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## Britney Spears (24 Jul 2005)

Well you're a little late to the game, that's for sure!

(See bottom of last page)


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## Infanteer (24 Jul 2005)

Wes, agree with you on that one.  From what I read at the BBC, this chap lived in London for years and spoke perfect English, so forget the excuse of linguistic/cultural misunderstanding.


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## Roy Harding (25 Jul 2005)

I must say, even though the result was tragic, the sequence of events was justified.

I'm most impressed with the British command structure, in the person of Sir Ian Blair.  Although he (quite properly) regrets the results, he backs up his officers - and states that policy will not change.

Had this unfortunate incident happened in Canada, I am not so sure that the individual officer involved would have had the same backing from his superiors, whether they be RCMP, CF, CSIS, OPP, or whatever.


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## mainerjohnthomas (25 Jul 2005)

Retired CC said:
			
		

> I must say, even though the result was tragic, the sequence of events was justified.
> 
> I'm most impressed with the British command structure, in the person of Sir Ian Blair.   Although he (quite properly) regrets the results, he backs up his officers - and states that policy will not change.
> 
> Had this unfortunate incident happened in Canada, I am not so sure that the individual officer involved would have had the same backing from his superiors, whether they be RCMP, CF, CSIS, OPP, or whatever.


     I have always envied the Brits the support of their elected and appointed leadership, it is something Canadian troops rarely get.
    For the first time we have a top soldier who has the balls to back us.  General Hiller, I wish I could have served under you


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## McG (25 Jul 2005)

> 3rd suspect arrested in failed London bombings
> _Last Updated Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:17:50 EDT
> CBC News_
> 
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/24/wales050724.html


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## I_Drive_Planes (26 Jul 2005)

I was on IAP a couple of weeks ago when the bombings happened (I have since VR'd).  We had a coy meeting where some of the higher people at the school introduced themselves.  After that was all done a Sgt. took the stage, he asked who our enemies were, some bright person (not from my platoon) said "I am Sgt!" the Sgt. said "You're my enemy? I'll come up there and break your neck! no, the terrorists are, and they've struck again." He proceded to tell us the details (It came to quite a shock to all of us as our access to information was quite limited) then he says "And in a few years you'll be done your training and you'll get to go up against those bastards and tear their F*****g throats out!"  It was really inspirational (you had to have been there to feel the energy of the moment), and it really brought into focus exactly why we were there in the military.  Marching out of the auditorium it was noticeable that everyone was digging their heels a little harder and swinging their arms a little higher, I think everyone took some real pride in the fact that it was going to be us who would eventually be dealing with these people.  Its things like that that make me regret VRing a little (sometimes a lot).  For those who are in, rip a terrorist throat out for me.

RIP to all who perished in London, and good hunting to those whose business it is to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Planes


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## McG (28 Jul 2005)

> *Arrest of bombing suspect seen as major breakthrough*
> Three others nabbed as London investigation intensifies
> _Mike Blanchfield
> Ottawa Citizen; CanWest News Service
> ...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (28 Jul 2005)

"He became a radicalized Muslim while serving a prison sentence..."

A problem the US should view seriously.


----------



## Pearson (29 Jul 2005)

Round up has started in London

LONDON, England (CNN) -- All four men suspected of planting failed bombs on London's transit system on July 21 are now in custody, according to sources in London and Rome.

Two suspects were picked up Friday during a raid at a government-subsidized apartment building in west London, sources close to the investigation told CNN.

One of the men arrested at the Dalgarno Gardens apartment building identified himself as Muktar Said Ibrahim and the other man identified himself as Ramzi Muhammed, said Peter Clarke, head of the Metropolitan Police Anti-Terrorist Branch.

British police said Ibrahim is suspected of planting a backpack bomb on a double-decker bus in Hackney, east London, on July 21.

Speaking at a news conference Clarke also confirmed a report from Italy's Interior Ministry that another suspected bomber was arrested in Rome Friday. Italian authorities identified him as Osman Hussain, a Somali with British residency, but Clarke named him as Hussain Osman. 

The fourth suspected bomber, Yasin Hassan Omar, 24 -- also a Somali with British residency -- was arrested Wednesday in Birmingham. Police said he was suspected of placing a backpack bomb at London's Warren Street Underground station.

Clarke added though that despite progress made in the investigation, the terrorism threat remains "very real." 

Two weeks before the failed attacks, bombs on three subway trains and a bus killed 56 people, including four suicide bombers.

London arrests
Dramatic video obtained by ITN of Friday's raids in London showed Ibrahim and Muhammed, suspected to be the Oval Station bomber, with their shirts off and hands in the air.

Before the men came out, the video showed police with gas masks two stories below entering another flat. One of the officers was temporarily distracted by two unafraid children.

One woman, who would not reveal her name, said she heard the entire three-hour exchange between the suspects and police, who had called for "Muhammed" to come out of the building. (Eyewitness accounts)

"Police started to say to him you need to come out of the flat ... with your underwear on and your arms up in the air," she told reporters. "He was then saying to them, 'How do I know that you're not going to ... shoot me?'

"They said you need to come out into the street with your underwear on so that we know that you haven't got any explosives on you, and so that we know that you're not a risk to the police or the public."

She said she heard the exchange from her apartment window, and the man sounded like he may have been crying. After he stopped talking to the police, she said, "a more aggressive police officer got on the loudspeaker and started saying to him, 'You need to maintain contact.'"

"He didn't maintain contact. And after a while you started to see the SWAT teams arriving ... and once they came out, and after about 15 minutes of not having contact with him, you heard like the gunshots go off."

Another raid took place in Notting Hill where another man was arrested. British Transport Police said two women were also arrested under the Terrorism Act at Liverpool Street station just before 2 p.m. (1300 GMT). 

A few minutes later, the station -- a major train and subway hub in the city's financial district -- was evacuated following the discovery of an unattended suitcase on the main station concourse. The station reopened shortly after 3 p.m.

The location of Friday's operation in west London is about one mile from Little Wormwood Scrubs Park, where police found a fifth undetonated bomb three days after the attempted July 21 bombings.

Police said the bomb was in a plastic container identical to the four partially-detonated devices left on three tube train cars and double-decker bus.

The neighborhood is also a little over a mile from the Shepherd's Bush Underground station, where one of the July 21 bombers failed to detonate a his bomb, then fled, running on a course in the direction of this park.

On Thursday, police arrested nine men in the Tooting area of south London.

Six were detained at one address and three at another, according to Metropolitan Police. 

Rome arrest
The arrest of Hussain in Rome came in a joint operation between Scotland Yard and the Italian police, a senior intelligence source told CNN. 

Scotland Yard tipped off the Italian authorities and were able to trace Hussain's cell phone from London to Rome, the source said. 

CNN's Jennifer Eccleston, in Rome, said it was not clear when he left London for Italy but was thought to have taken a train and stopped off in the town of Brescia, northern Italy, before heading to Rome. 

He was arrested in an apartment also owned by a man also believed to be a Somali, thought to be a relative of Hussain, though a legal resident in Italy, Eccleston said. 

The man owns a call center in Rome where many immigrants go to call back home, she said. 

The senior intelligence source also told CNN that the man was believed to be in custody with Hussain. 

They were captured by Italy's special police unit. Hussain and the other suspect were now being held at the city's main police station, she said and Hussain was currently undergoing interrogation.

London police said they would ask Italy to extradite Hussain.


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## 1feral1 (29 Jul 2005)

Anyways, so it was a typical Friday tropical winter's night here on the island (about 20C after dark, www.bribie.com.au we went down to the surf club on the beach at Woorim for dinner (2 can dine for $29 w/bottle of red wine and of couse an few Cougar whiskys to boot :blotto: ). Nancy drove, got home about 2130, flicked on the box about 2230 (0630 Friday Canadian CST) after Nancy crashed for the night. I just thought I'd catch a bit of TV before I too went to bed.

To my amazement, I watched the siege unfold live on SkyNews for several hours before crashing on the chesterfield myself (self imposed TV exile for the night). So, its now almost 0730 Saturday (1530 Canadian CST Friday), and I am   happy to see that all these grubs are now in the hands of the authorities, and I am somewhat relieved, but what about the '5th' bomber, and others which have been influenced by these grub's behaviour. I don't think England (and us for that matter) are out of the woods yet.

Aside from all of that, we can be assured that the Poms will grill these humanoids (and I use that term loosely) using all forms of interrogation (and then some ;D ) that their laws will permit, and hopefully with tonnes of pressure on, they'll spill their guts like the cowards they are, and tell everything they know. For those who harboured these potential murderers, lets hope too they are made examples of. I am sure the Poms have ZERO tolorence on any of the trash who supports them all, especially after the 7-7 attacks.

Although this is a victory, the tempo of our vigilance must remain constant, as there are others who right now want to take their place, and not just in the UK either.

Sadly, Sam Lee, was buried in Melbourne yesterday. Sam was only 28 years old, and the only Australian killed   on 7-7. He was on the bus that was destroyed by a homicide bomber. A total of 10 Australians were injured, most still in hosptial, where a young woman lost both her legs in the attack. I guess at times like this, we don't realise how lucky we all are, safe and sound in our own secure zones in our homes with the people we love and care about. I guess we should never take anything for granted, should we. There is no doubt that monring of the 7th, the people who were murdered and injured we thinking the same thing before they left their homes. Yip, we don't realise how lucky we really are.

Regards,

Wes


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## George Wallace (19 Aug 2008)

For those who haven't been following this; the Terrorism Trial of Momin Khawaja is currently going on in Ottawa.  The Defence is now working on "semantics" saying that yes Khawaja did train in Afghanistan, and yes he did design the bomb; but it was not for the plot in England.   :

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> *Khawaja didn't target civilians in Britain: defence*
> Updated: Tue Aug. 19 2008 14:43:58
> 
> The Canadian Press
> ...



http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20080819/khawaja_trial_080819/20080819/?hub=OttawaHomeLINK


SYMANTICS!  Does it matter where "exactly" he designed the bomb for?  It could have landed up in France, or Spain, or Italy, or here at home.  It could have been anywhere.  It was a "Terrorist Act" and it doesn't matter where the bomb was destined.


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## George Wallace (28 Aug 2008)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



*The defence does not rest*



> When Lawrence Greenspon took Momin Khawaja's case, he knew the fight would be long and hard. As Chris Cobb reports, he spent his life preparing for it.
> Chris Cobb, The Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Monday, August 18, 2008
> OTTAWA - When seasoned defence lawyer Lawrence Greenspon met Momin Khawaja for the first time four years ago, he wasn't convinced he was the right person to represent the young, computer savvy Ottawa Muslim accused of helping plot international terror attacks.
> ...




*Khawaja didn't know of London plot, lawyer says as terror trial resumes*



> Tim Shufelt, The Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Tuesday, August 19, 2008
> OTTAWA - Momin Khawaja may have wanted to wage violent jihad in Afghanistan, but he had no knowledge that the detonator he is accused of building was to be used in the foiled London fertilizer bomb plot, defence lawyer Lawrence Greenspon said as Mr. Khawaja's terrorism trial resumed Tuesday.
> 
> ...




*Khawaja not part of London plot, defence argues*



> Tim Shufelt, The Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Wednesday, August 20, 2008
> OTTAWA - Members of a British terror cell deliberately withheld information from Momin Khawaja regarding their true intentions for the detonator he is accused of designing, according to the defence.
> 
> ...




*Insurgency argument no defence for Khawaja, Crown argues*



> Ian MacLeod, The Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Tuesday, August 26, 2008
> OTTAWA - Momin Khawaja's defence that he planned to fight with insurgents in Afghanistan - not participate in an Islamist plot to bomb London - is still a terrorist crime under Canadian law, a federal Crown told the Khawaja trial today.
> 
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (28 Aug 2008)

Egads. 

As important as a strong defence establishment in the defeat of a terrorist campaign is the development of a strong system of unassailable legislation which can be used to jail the evil doers quickly, and for extremely long periods of time. One without the other is a waste of time and lives, IMHO.


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  Link to Article in Title.


*Three men convicted in 2006 U.K. bomb plot*

A London jury has found three men guilty of conspiring to kill people using homemade liquid explosives.

CTV.ca News Staff 


However, after 50 hours of deliberations the jury couldn't agree on whether the men intended to use the bombs on planes. 

The jurors had been told by prosecutors that the plotters planned to kill thousands of people by smuggling liquid explosives onto jetliners leaving Heathrow airport, then to detonate them while in the air. 

At least seven airliners bound for Canada and the U.S. from the U.K. were included in the plot, according to prosecutors. 

Abdulla Ahmed Ali, Assad Sarwar and Tanvir Hussain were all found guilty of conspiring to kill "persons unknown." 

The men argued they didn't intend to kill, but intended to carry out a bloodless attack that would attract attention to their cause -- anger over British and American involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq. 

Evidence shown during the trial included suicide videos of the men saying he intended to carry out attacks. 

The three men convicted Monday were among eight British Muslims accused of taking part in the plot. 

The jury failed to come to a verdict on four other defendants. An eighth was found not guilty. 

CTV's London Bureau Chief Tom Kennedy said it is unclear whether legal proceedings will continue against the four defendants. 

"The major question mark is still what does the prosecution service do now. There are still four individuals the jury was not able to reach a verdict on, so it's quite possible the whole legal process into this really enormous terror investigation may not be over yet," Kennedy told CTV Newsnet. 

The uncovering of the plot in August 2006 caused chaos in airports around the world with tough new restrictions put in place over the amount of liquid passengers could bring on board. 

Many of those restrictions are still in place


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  Link to Article in Title.

*Judge rejects bid to have Khawaja case thrown out*
Updated: Mon Sep. 08 2008 14:07:13

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA — A judge dealt a setback to accused terrorist Momin Khawaja on Monday by refusing to toss out the charges against him. 

Justice Douglas Rutherford said the Crown has presented enough evidence against the Ottawa software developer for the high-profile trial to continue. 

Khawaja, arrested four years ago, faces seven charges of financing and facilitating terrorism. 

It includes the key allegation he built a remote-control device, dubbed the Hi-Fi Digimonster, to trigger explosions planned by Islamic extremists in Britain. He also stands accused of participating in terrorist training and meetings, and making a house owned by his family in Pakistan available for terrorist use. 

Khawaja, who has pleaded not guilty to all charges, is being tried in Ontario Superior Court without a jury. 

Defence lawyer Lawrence Greenspon asked the judge to throw the case out in a motion argued last month, saying the Crown has not made a strong enough argument to support the charges. 

Rutherford said Monday there is sufficient evidence on the record for a properly instructed jury to find Khawaja guilty "on any or all of the counts" -- the appropriate legal test of Greenspon's motion even though the judge alone is hearing the case. 

Indeed, a jury might reasonably conclude Khawaja "was a knowing participant" in a plot to explode devices in the United Kingdom, Rutherford said. 

Five alleged co-conspirators were convicted last year in Britain of plotting to bomb targets that included a nightclub, shopping centre and gas and electrical facilities. 

The prosecution's star witness, Mohammed Babar, a former al-Qaida operative turned police informant, testified that Khawaja attended a training camp in Pakistan in 2003. He also claimed Khawaja acted as a courier to deliver money and supplies and discussed various potential operations. 

Evidence gathered by the British security agency MI-5 indicated Khawaja visited people involved in the British plot and discussed remote-control technology with them. 

The RCMP says it later found the Digimonster in a raid on the Khawaja family home in suburban Ottawa and enough components to suggest Khawaja may have been planning to build more devices. 

There has also been testimony that Khawaja used an Ottawa-area woman, Zenab Armandpisheh, as a go-between to funnel money to co-conspirators in Britain. 

In email exchanges with Zeba Khan, his former fiancee, Khawaja boasted of his devotion to jihadi activities and indicated his support for the 9/11 attacks in the United States. 

Khan said she considered it just talk and couldn't believe Khawaja was actually involved in terrorist activity. 

Greenspon has suggested, during his previous cross-examination of Crown witnesses, that Khawaja attended the training camp in Pakistan because he was toying with the idea of going to fight western forces in Afghanistan -- not to bomb civilian targets in Britain. 

Rutherford said Monday that to characterize Khawaja's actions as preparation simply for battlefield jihad "is to view the evidence too narrowly." 

"It obviously included the making and testing of explosives." 

Greenspon has also suggested the Digimonster was intended for use in Afghanistan, if anywhere. He has challenged the technical analysis done by the RCMP and noted that many of the components they seized were found in the bedroom of Momin's brother Qasim, who does not face charges. 

Outside the courtroom, Greenspon put a brave face on Rutherford's decision, saying the evidentiary threshold necessary for the trial to continue was rather low. He argued there's a "significantly higher standard" of proof for his client to be found guilty of the charges. 

Greenspon's effort to get the charges thrown out, technically known as a motion of non-suit, is a common defence tactic. It essentially calls on the judge to conclude there isn't enough evidence to continue and to acquit the accused. 

The defence was to decide Monday whether to call witnesses and make additional arguments when proceedings resume Tuesday. 

Greenspon has refused to say whether he would call Khawaja to testify -- a move that would open him to cross-examination by the prosecution. 

He indicated Khawaja was fully aware of the importance of Monday's ruling. "I can't imagine he's anything but disappointed."


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## daftandbarmy (9 Sep 2008)

UK 1 - Bad Guys 0

Canada - remains to be seen I guess, but I'm pretty happy with the British results regardless. Well done chaps!

Bring them to justice or bring justice to them.


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## George Wallace (13 Sep 2008)

Some updates on the Terrorism Trial in Ottawa related to these attacks (Links in yellow):

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Khawaja closing arguments wrap up

Updated: Sat Sep. 13 2008 12:18:52

The Canadian Press

Defence lawyer Lawrence Greenspon told terror suspect Momin Khawaja's trial that Canadian anti-terrorism laws must be applied in a just way. 

In concluding arguments Friday in Ottawa, Greenspon acknowledged Khawaja sent an email in 2003 in which he expressed approval of the September 11 attacks. 

But he said Khawaja can't be found guilty simply for his views or the company he keeps. 

The 29-year old software developer was arrested four years ago in Ottawa and faces seven charges of financing and facilitating terrorism. 

They include the key accusation he built a remote-control device to trigger blasts planned by Islamic extremists in the United Kingdom. 

Five of Khawaja's alleged co-conspirators were earlier convicted in London. 

The case is seen as a key test of the anti-terrorist laws Ottawa enacted after the 9-11 attacks. 

Justice Douglas Rutherford says he'll deliver his ruling October 29th. 

=====================================================================================


Khawaja aimed to 'destroy' West: Crown

Ian MacLeod , Canwest News Service
Published: Tuesday, September 09, 2008
OTTAWA - Momin Khawaja intended to "bring death and destruction to the West," the prosecution charged in its closing address Tuesday after the defence elected not to call Khawaja to testify at his terrorism trial.

"He vowed to become the West's mortal enemy . . . to prosecute his own private war," armed with the virulent ideology of master terrorist Osama bin Laden, federal Crown lawyer David McKercher said during his daylong closing remarks.

Outside court later, defence lawyer Lawrence Greenspon said he chose to present no evidence because prosecution testimony and other Crown evidence - most of which he consented to without argument - suggests Khawaja, 29, wanted to join Muslim insurgents in Afghanistan, not become an urban terrorist.

"Most of the evidence of what took place is not and has never been at issue," Greenspon said. "The essence of the defence has already been put forward through the mouths of the Crown witnesses."

None of the five prosecution witnesses to testify since the trial began June 23 offered any direct evidence linking Khawaja to a foiled 2004 plot by a British terrorism cell to bomb public sites in and around London. That, Greenspon has argued, was because his client's actions and statements in support of an Islamic Jihad were in relation to fighting in Afghanistan, not targeting London or other Western sites.

A key Crown allegation that his client was building a radio-frequency device dubbed a "Hi-Fi Digimonster" to remotely detonate a fertilizer bomb or bombs around London was, in fact, intended to trigger improvised explosive devices against NATO-led troops in Afghanistan, he said. 

But McKercher Tuesday said there is an abundance of circumstantial evidence - including dozens of Khawaja's own hate-filled e-mails proclaiming armed jihad against the West - that proves the Ottawa man is guilty not only of participating in the London plot, but of facilitating and financing the British group to launch other attacks against Western targets.

In addition to the Hi-Fi Digimonster seized by police from Khawaja's home, McKercher said the evidence includes: testimony from al-Qaida informer Mohammed Babar that Khawaja helped finance the operation to bomb a London nightclub; the convictions in Britain last year of Khawaja's five co-conspirators in the bomb plot; his own e-mails describing jihad against the West; three military-style assault rifles, 640 rounds of ammunition and $10,000 in cash found by police in his family's Ottawa home.

As well, McKercher cited a 2003 trip to a Pakistan terror training camp; a trip to meet the British conspirators in February 2004 to show off the Hi-Fi Digimonster; e-mails in which Khawaja discussed ways to smuggle the device into the United Kingdom; the presence of Mohammed Sidique Khan, ringleader of the 2005 London transit suicide bombings, at the Pakistan camp and at the home of one British conspirators at the same time Khawaja was in England; and Khawaja's recruiting of an Ottawa-area woman he used to funnel money to the British group.

"On the evidence, the Crown would submit that there is no doubt at all," Khawaja is guilty, McKercher told the court. "It was his intention to bring death and destruction to the West."

© Ottawa Citizen 2008


More at the Ottawa Citizen
=========================================================================================================


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## George Wallace (10 Apr 2009)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.  

*Khawaja appeals terrorism conviction *  

LINK             

*The first person sentenced under Canada's Anti-terrorism Act, Mohammad Momin Khawaja, will appeal his conviction, says his lawyer.
*

10/04/2009 8:31:38 AM


Lawrence Greenspon served notice Thursday asking the Ontario Court of Appeal to overturn a finding that his client aided a group of British extremists.

Greenspon told the Associated Press there were gaps in the Crown's evidence during the Ottawa trial.

"The judge was aware of them, made a decision despite them, and that's one of the grounds for the appeal," he said.

Greenspon suggested the groundbreaking nature of the case meant the legal terrain was not well defined.

"Our trial judge, of course, was dealing with many of these issues for the first time in a Canadian courtroom, and it wasn't easy. It was very challenging."

Khawaja 'fully involved' in appeal decision

Khawaja, sentenced in March, is serving 10Â½ years for financing and facilitating terrorism at a Quebec prison.

Greenspon said Khawaja was "fully involved" in the decision to appeal.

The 2001 act was pushed through Parliament following the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States.

The 29-year-old Ottawa software developer was convicted last year of five charges of financing and facilitating terrorism for training at a remote camp in Pakistan and providing cash to a group of British extremists, as well as offering them lodging and other assistance.

He was also convicted of two Criminal Code offences, but not any anti-terrorism provisions, related to building a remote-control device to set off explosions. The Crown failed to prove Khawaja knew the trigger would be used in a plot to detonate fertilizer bombs in London.

In the ruling, Justice Douglas Rutherford of Ontario Superior Court called Khawaja "a willing and eager participant" in jihadist schemes aimed at sowing mayhem.

'Unreasonable verdict'

The notice of appeal contends that the terrorism charges should not have gone to trial once the court found a key element of the legal definition of terrorism violated a person's rights to freedom of expression, religion and association.

"In terms of the convictions, our position is that the judge, having struck out the heart of the terrorism definition, he should have proceeded to quash the charges. We shouldn't have proceeded at all on those charges," Greenspon said.

The notice of appeal argues the judge reached an "unreasonable verdict" in finding that Khawaja knew his British associates were a terrorist group. It also says the sentence was too harsh because Khawaja was not afforded the customary two-for-one credit for the five years he spent behind bars from the time of his arrest to the conviction.

The Crown is expected to say Tuesday whether it will cross-appeal.

Arrested in March 2004, Khawaja has spent almost five years in jail while his trial and sentencing played out. He pleaded not guilty and was tried without a jury.

Khawaja was born in Ottawa and moved with his family to Libya, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia before returning to Canada.

He obtained a college diploma in computer programming in 2001 and was working on a software project for the Foreign Affairs Department at the time of his arrest.

Throughout the case, the defence had argued Khawaja was a peripheral figure in the British-based plot to detonate targets around London. British police and security forces broke up the plot before any bombs were planted.

The five men were convicted by a British jury and received life sentences with no parole for at least 17 years.

With files from The Canadian Press


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## Yrys (12 Apr 2009)

Canadian appeals UK plot ruling






Khawaja's sentence was excessive, 
his lawyer argues

The first Canadian to be sentenced under the country's new anti-terrorism legislation will appeal 
against his conviction, his lawyer says. Pakistan-born Momin Khawaja was convicted of 
involvement in a foiled fertiliser bomb plot in Britain and sentenced to 10 years and six months. 
He was found guilty in October 2008 by a judge in Ontario. He was tried without a jury. Legal 
experts regarded the trial as a test of Canada's anti-terror laws.

Five British Muslims of Pakistani descent are serving life sentences after being convicted in 
London in 2007.

Khawaja's lawyer, Lawrence Greenspon, filed the appeal in Ontario, arguing that there were gaps 
in the prosecution's evidence, AP reported. Khawaja's appeal will be based on Justice Douglas 
Rutherford's acceptance that authorities could not prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was 
fully aware of the plot.

*'Hi-fi digimonster'*

Software developer Khawaja, who had denied all seven charges related to terrorism and explosives 
use, was arrested in March 2004 in a joint UK-Canadian operation and was accused of planning to 
attack the UK.

The judge ruled in October that he had knowingly participated in the foiled plot against several British 
targets, including a shopping centre, nightclub and the gas network. As well as five terrorism offences,
he was also found guilty of two separate criminal charges of having worked on a device to activate 
a bomb detonator and possessing an explosive substance.

The court was earlier told he had been part of a plan to detonate a 600kg bomb which would have 
caused "massive" loss of life. Khawaja designed a remote bomb detonator which he called the "hi-fi 
digimonster", prosecutors said. He was also accused of attending a paramilitary training camp 
in Pakistan.

In February 2004, Khawaja appeared on the radar of the security services who already had the British
fertiliser bomb plot conspirators under surveillance. When he arrived at Heathrow airport he was met 
by Omar Khyam - one of the Britons convicted last year - who was under surveillance from specialist 
counter-terrorism officers.

One of the surveillance officers told the British plot trial they had no idea who the Canadian was, 
or what his role was in the plot. But as Khyam drove off in his four-wheel drive vehicle, the officers 
listening in heard him and the Canadian discuss a remote-controlled device designed to trigger the 
bomb the men were planning.

The new Canadian law gives the government wider powers to keep intelligence information secret 
on national security grounds and limits defendants' access to evidence used against them. 


Also on Momin Khawaja    :

Anti-terrorism squads raid Ottawa homes, army.ca thread
 Khawaja: The Canadian connection, BBC News article, 12 March 2009


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## mariomike (6 May 2011)

Update.
BBC 6 May 2011
"Emergency delays 'did not cause deaths': Delays in the emergency services' response to the 7/7 London bombings did not cause the death of any of the 52 people killed, the coroner has said.
But in concluding the inquests into the deaths, Lady Justice Hallett criticised lapses by emergency services
She made nine recommendations that aim to "save lives", and said no further inquiries, or inquests on the bombers, were needed.":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13308371

"There should be a review of procedures for telling emergency services that the power in Underground tunnels has been switched off, and that it is safe to go onto the tracks."

The inquests heard that over at Edgware Road, Assistant Divisional Officer Alan Davies, then head of Paddington fire station, refused to allow his men into the tunnel because of the possibility of a dirty bomb. 
"He accepted that evidence showed that police officers and paramedics went into the tunnel before specialist officers had chance to establish whether or not there was a CBRN risk." 

"How well did the 7/7 emergency services respond?: One of the key questions at the heart of the 7 July inquests is whether the emergency services could have responded faster and better.":
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12636731

"But in the closing days of the inquests, the coroner heard about "organised chaos" and shortcomings at the ambulance service's disaster control room at Waterloo."

"Emergency planners should review the inter-agency training for front line staff, particularly with reference to the Underground system."

"staff should be told that performing triage does not prevent them giving immediate or basic medical treatment"

Over use of emergency services "jargon" was discussed. 

"Some of these problems dated back to the horrific King's Cross fire of 1987."

"Why did many not stop to help?:
    The reason why some people act and many do not is called "bystander apathy"
    The first element to it is diffusion of responsibility - people without medical training tell themselves they do not know how to deal with the situation and walk past. Also, as others are not taking any action, there is a pressure on them to be like everyone else and do nothing.
    The other element is "what's in it for me?" - this might take up my time, I might be injured or go unrewarded for my efforts.
    Exceptions tend to be nurses, paramedics, first aiders who feel able to use their skills, the altruistic, the empathetic and those who know they will be overwhelmed by guilt if they walk away."
As explained by psychologist Professor Helen Cowie


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