# Gentlemen



## MCpl Wesite (22 Oct 2015)

Stupid question time.

I've always heard that officers are considered gentlemen/ladies and NCM's are the men and women.

Is there a reference/pub anywhere that actually says this?

Cheers.


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## George Wallace (22 Oct 2015)

MCpl Westie said:
			
		

> Stupid question time.
> 
> I've always heard that officers are considered gentlemen/ladies and NCM's are the men and women.
> 
> ...



You will likely find the correct references outside the military, in old books on Etiquette.

Michael O'Leary's site, regimentalrogue.com, has many historical references.


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## RocketRichard (22 Oct 2015)

This may help:

Dress policy for some Messes:

Dress Regulations for Junior Rank's Mess



The following dress regulations shall apply to all personnel (members and guests) when they are present in the *Junior Rank's Mess*;
Formal;
*Male *- Mess Kit, Uniform (2B), dark solid evening coloured suit; and
*Female *- Mess Kit, Uniform (2B), formal evening attire.
Regular;
Male - sport jacket, dress shirt with tie or open neck, turtle neck, dress pants; and
Female - dress, skirt or slacks with blouse.

Dress Codes Policy

Unless otherwise posted for specific functions, the minimum order of dress in the Army Officers Mess is # 5.

Footwear:

Sneakers and sports sandals are not appropriate at any time in the Army Officers Mess unless specified as part of a theme or sport attire.

Note:

The following items are not permitted unless indicated on the entertainment calendar or previously authorized: Sleeveless shirts (muscle shirts), and clothing not in good repair or taste.  Jeans are not permitted unless indicated on the entertainment calendar, or as part of the United Way campaign (United Way button must be worn).  Dress shirts must be tucked in.



Dress Codes

#1

*Gentlemen:*
Mess Kit or Black Tie
*Ladies:*
Mess Kit or Evening Gown


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## Bird_Gunner45 (22 Oct 2015)

MCpl Westie said:
			
		

> Stupid question time.
> 
> I've always heard that officers are considered gentlemen/ladies and NCM's are the men and women.
> 
> ...



The plural of "Sir' is "Gentlemen" and the plural of Ma'am is "ladies". By definition, any group of more than 1 male or female officer would then be properly addressed as "ladies and gentlemen" from a strictly grammatical perspective. 

The view of the officer as being a "lady/gentleman" comes from the old military establishment where the vast majority of the officer class was drawn from the new/old nobility. the tradition has carried on largely in name only IMHO....


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## Old Sweat (22 Oct 2015)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> The plural of "Sir' is "Gentlemen" and the plural of Ma'am is "ladies". By definition, any group of more than 1 male or female officer would then be properly addressed as "ladies and gentlemen" from a strictly grammatical perspective.
> 
> The view of the officer as being a "lady/gentleman" comes from the old military establishment where the vast majority of the officer class was drawn from the new/old nobility. the tradition has carried on largely in name only IMHO....



When I was on officer training in 1960 we were told "an officer and a gentleman" was an American term and, while Canadian officers were not defined as gentlemen [and ladies,] we were to act as if we were. For whatever it is worth, we had one member of our course who could be described as coming from the gentlemanly class. He was an early failure.


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## dimsum (22 Oct 2015)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> When I was on officer training in 1960 we were told "an officer and a gentleman" was an American term and, while Canadian officers were not defined as gentlemen [and ladies,] we were to act as if we were. For whatever it is worth, we had one member of our course who could be described as coming from the gentlemanly class. He was an early failure.



Was he expecting a batman (and not Bruce Wayne)?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (22 Oct 2015)

But Old Sweat, that's because in the US, the officers were NOT selected from the ranks of the gentlemen.  :nod:

You also have to remember that in the US they also address their officers as "Sir", even though they were never part of the gentry, even the female officers (they do not seem to be capable of addressing women officers as "M'am".

As for us in Canada, we follow (of course) the British model, so gentlemen and ladies are plural for Sir and M'am. It is certainly the only way I have ever seen a group of officers addressed as: At an O Group or mostly officers' briefing, or in my case on the bridge of a ship or in the wardroom, we have always used "Ladies and Gentlemen" as there collective address to the group (As in the toast "Ladies and Gentlemen, The Queen!")


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## Old Sweat (22 Oct 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Was he expecting a batman (and not Bruce Wayne)?



Not far off. When he arrived at Douglas Station, the CPR stop for Shilo, he ordered one of the NCO instructors to load his bags on the truck. The course officer made it clear to him that if he wanted to see his personal effects again, he better bestir himself and lug the bags to the vehicle himself.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Oct 2015)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> But Old Sweat, that's because in the US, the officers were NOT selected from the ranks of the gentlemen.  :nod:
> 
> You also have to remember that in the US they also address their officers as "Sir", even though they were never part of the gentry, even the female officers (they do not seem to be capable of addressing women officers as "M'am".
> 
> As for us in Canada, we follow (of course) the British model, so gentlemen and ladies are plural for Sir and M'am. It is certainly the only way I have ever seen a group of officers addressed as: At an O Group or mostly officers' briefing, or in my case on the bridge of a ship or in the wardroom, we have always used "Ladies and Gentlemen" as there collective address to the group (As in the toast "Ladies and Gentlemen, The Queen!")



We had a female BC that we called Sir :nod:


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## Old Sweat (22 Oct 2015)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> But Old Sweat, that's because in the US, the officers were NOT selected from the ranks of the gentlemen.  :nod:
> 
> You also have to remember that in the US they also address their officers as "Sir", even though they were never part of the gentry, even the female officers (they do not seem to be capable of addressing women officers as "M'am".
> 
> As for us in Canada, we follow (of course) the British model, so gentlemen and ladies are plural for Sir and M'am. It is certainly the only way I have ever seen a group of officers addressed as: At an O Group or mostly officers' briefing, or in my case on the bridge of a ship or in the wardroom, we have always used "Ladies and Gentlemen" as there collective address to the group (As in the toast "Ladies and Gentlemen, The Queen!")



Indeed, but that was pretty well obsolete in the Canadian Army by the end of the Second World War, much to the chagrin of the traditionalists. During that war about half the officers came from the ranks. Mind you, in the sixties we used to get what we called "couth lectures" taken verbatim from British Army material on manners for the lower classes when elevated to gentlemen status. Frankly I am proud that I grew up on a farm and earned a commission on merit.


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## dimsum (22 Oct 2015)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Indeed, but that was pretty well obsolete in the Canadian Army by the end of the Second World War, much to the chagrin of the traditionalists. During that war about half the officers came from the ranks. Mind you, in the sixties we used to get what we called "couth lectures" taken verbatim from British Army material on manners for the lower classes when elevated to gentlemen status. Frankly I am proud that I grew up on a farm and earned a commission on merit.



Wait - was one of those "couch lectures" something about "if you have a drink at lunch, drink gin as people can't smell it on your breath"?  I know I read it somewhere and couldn't stop laughing.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Oct 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Wait - was one of those "couch lectures" something about "if you have a drink at lunch, drink gin as people can't smell it on your breath"?  I know I read it somewhere and couldn't stop laughing.



Vodka... it's vodka they can't smell on your breath after lunch.


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## Blackadder1916 (22 Oct 2015)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> The plural of "Sir' is "Gentlemen" and the plural of Ma'am is "ladies". By definition, any group of more than 1 male or female officer would then be properly addressed as "ladies and gentlemen" from a strictly grammatical perspective.
> 
> The view of the officer as being a "lady/gentleman" comes from the old military establishment where the vast majority of the officer class was drawn from the new/old nobility. the tradition has carried on largely in name only IMHO....



" . . . he became an officer and a gentleman, which is an enviable thing . . ."   from  "Only A Subaltern"  by Rudyard Kipling

Now, "from a strictly grammatical perspective", the plural of "sir" is "sirs" and "ma'am" (a contraction of "madam") is madams (or mesdames if you're real poncy).  Since the use of sir and ma'am in a military setting denotes an inferior to a superior relationship, it does not automatically follow that use of the combined expression "ladies and gentlemen" (or use of the terms singlely) is directed at groups consisting of those normally entitled to the honorific of sir/ma'am.  It could just as easily be applied to a group of officers; or a group of officers and NCMs; or a group of officers, NCMs and civilians regardless of the rank relationship of the speaker.  It shouldn't be applied to a group that includes regimental mascots, whatever the relationship (however intimate or platonic) individuals in that group have with the mascot.

At one time (I don't know when the use ceased) those attending RMC (just like their Sandhurst counterparts) were ranked and titled as "Gentleman Cadets".

On an historic note, the better class of "Madams" provided entertainment venues for the often less refined class of "Gentlemen".


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2015)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Not far off. When he arrived at Douglas Station, the CPR stop for Shilo, he ordered one of the NCO instructors to load his bags on the truck. The course officer made it clear to him that if he wanted to see his personal effects again, he better bestir himself and lug the bags to the vehicle himself.



Oh how I love little stories like this.   ;D


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## Bird_Gunner45 (22 Oct 2015)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> " . . . he became an officer and a gentleman, which is an enviable thing . . ."   from  "Only A Subaltern"  by Rudyard Kipling
> 
> Now, "from a strictly grammatical perspective", the plural of "sir" is "sirs" and "ma'am" (a contraction of "madam") is madams (or mesdames if you're real poncy).  Since the use of sir and ma'am in a military setting denotes an inferior to a superior relationship, it does not automatically follow that use of the combined expression "ladies and gentlemen" (or use of the terms singlely) is directed at groups consisting of those normally entitled to the honorific of sir/ma'am.  It could just as easily be applied to a group of officers; or a group of officers and NCMs; or a group of officers, NCMs and civilians regardless of the rank relationship of the speaker.  It shouldn't be applied to a group that includes regimental mascots, whatever the relationship (however intimate or platonic) individuals in that group have with the mascot.
> 
> ...



I'll agree to disagree. Most dictionaries do include "sirs" as an official english word, it is almost always predicated with something like, 'Gentlemen is the proper plural form of sir but sirs is acceptable as well" sort of how "aint" is in the dictionary.


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## Good2Golf (22 Oct 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Oh how I love little stories like this.   ;D



I love a witty NCM.  Years back, I was a young subbie heading off to an airshow as a co-pilot in the #2 aircraft.  As I was dutifully following my aircraft captain through Flight Operations, I overheard the Flight Commander to his flight engineer, "MCpl XXX, my luggage is by the door at Servicing..."  Fast forward to our putting the aircraft to bed at destination.  Same Flight Commander to same MCpl, "MCpl XXX, where is my luggage?"  MCpl XXX to Flight Commander, with an incredibly well-played aire of innocence, "Sir, I believe you noted it was by the door to Servicing..." 







That night the "gentleman" was rightly had out by the soldier.  Well done, MCpl!!!  :nod:


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2015)

Oh that is magical.


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## Good2Golf (22 Oct 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Oh that is magical.



MCpl XXX also once told the MND [Collinette] to find another aircraft, this one [Huey] wasn't for him.

I was about 300m away at the time, in an idling Huey, but the MCpl's head tilting, pointing elsewhere and the final "two-hand pshaww, I'm out of here" motion was pretty unmistakable...when he got back to the chopper and hooked up to the intercom, he quietly suggested, "We should go now!"  ;D


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## CountDC (22 Oct 2015)

The MCpl deserves it.


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## Rifleman62 (22 Oct 2015)

When you commission from the ranks you cease to be a man. :

How about every Army CWO being addressed as RSM, my particular fav.


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## mariomike (22 Oct 2015)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> How about every Army CWO being addressed as RSM, my particular fav.



We've had a couple of great discussions along those lines,

Proper way to address a WO, MWO, CWO or Officer  
3 pages.

Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address) 
11 pages.


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## rmc_wannabe (22 Oct 2015)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> When you commission from the ranks you cease to be a man. :
> 
> How about every Army CWO being addressed as RSM, my particular fav.



:facepalm: the difference between position and rank is a hard one for some.


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## Pat in Halifax (23 Oct 2015)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> :facepalm: the difference between position and rank is a hard one for some.


Or for CPO1s being called Cox'n. Truth is 'most' CPO1s either are or were (or will be?) a Cox'n. The only one I used to correct was when I was in Ottawa and called 'Sir' and even saluted on occasion....Sometimes by officers.

...By far my favourite nickname while there was "Shuttle Dress Nazi Chief`- That one got me a personal meeting with the CFSU CWO....although I didn't stop picking up dress infractions on the shuttle - just was a little quieter.


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## The Bread Guy (23 Oct 2015)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I love a witty NCM.  Years back, I was a young subbie heading off to an airshow as a co-pilot in the #2 aircraft.  As I was dutifully following my aircraft captain through Flight Operations, I overheard the Flight Commander to his flight engineer, "MCpl XXX, my luggage is by the door at Servicing..."  Fast forward to our putting the aircraft to bed at destination.  Same Flight Commander to same MCpl, "MCpl XXX, where is my luggage?"  MCpl XXX to Flight Commander, with an incredibly well-played aire of innocence, "Sir, I believe you noted it was by the door to Servicing..."


 :rofl: Gold, Jerry, gold!


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## my72jeep (23 Oct 2015)

So how does this apply to Navel Officers, I was told they are not gentleman?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Oct 2015)

You must be thinking of the old WWII quip:

Naval Reserve officers (Merchant seaman) were seamen trying to be gentlemen;
Volunteer reserve officers were gentlemen trying to be seamen; and,
Regular Navy officers were neither, trying to be both.


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## OldSolduer (23 Oct 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Vodka... it's vodka they can't smell on your breath after lunch.



And you would know this....how?


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## ueo (23 Oct 2015)

Long, long time ago... Late one Friday night Ocdts in the School of Foot Mess in Borden were told by a member of the staff " Your commission scroll will state you are an officer but no where does it say you are a gentleman." Forget the exact circumstances but it became the unofficial motto of our course throughout all phases.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Oct 2015)

Tangent On

I've always thought it kind of creepy when some senior guy, who appears to be angry about something, addresses everyone as 'Gentlemen' - usually through clenched teeth. He clearly doesn't mean it, but says it anyway.

It seems to be a North Americanism as I never came across that in the UK or elsewhere.

Tangent Off


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## bLUE fOX (25 Oct 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Wait - was one of those "couch lectures" something about "if you have a drink at lunch, drink gin as people can't smell it on your breath"?  I know I read it somewhere and couldn't stop laughing.



There was a booklet published by NOTC VENTURE called Neptunes Notes, and it had an entire chapter about drinking. I believe this is the line you were looking for:

Spirits are generally served on board in small quantities, generally about 1 oz. per drink. The practice of calling for ‘doubles’ is seldom followed in Wardrooms except by the most hardened customers, so the person who has three or four Gins before Lunchtime is not really a confirmed alcoholic


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