# Improved Combat Uniform



## HollywoodCowboy (28 Jun 2011)

Received an email from CoC, it is a ppt slide show of the Improved Cmbt Uniform.
Any one else receive an email like this?
It's a little fishy to me.
If anybody can tell me how to attach a ppt I'd be happy to share.


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## Nfld Sapper (28 Jun 2011)

HollywoodCowboy said:
			
		

> Received an email from CoC, it is a ppt slide show of the Improved Cmbt Uniform.
> Any one else receive an email like this?
> It's a little fishy to me.
> If anybody can tell me how to attach a ppt I'd be happy to share.



Its on the up and up...I received it too and have seen at least one version of the Combat shirt already....


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## dangerboy (28 Jun 2011)

I have seen the PPT  like NFLD Sapper said it is real, my OC went to the Infantry conference a while back and gave us info on it. That being said I will believe it when I get told to go to clothing stores to draw it.


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## Nfld Sapper (28 Jun 2011)

There is another thread here about the new shirts and confirmed by Vern...


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## Wookilar (29 Jun 2011)

I've got the powerpoint as well. Looks good so far.

Don't expect to see anything until late next summer.

Wook


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## McG (29 Jun 2011)

The word "improved" is significant here.  This is not "new" (despite being advertised as the biggest uniform change since 1950) and so the Army will not be buying great stocks to replace the uniforms off everyone's backs.  Deploying TFs will be able to request specific kitting in the new uniform, but otherwise you had best not get any hopes of having this issued faster than your current clothing will wear-out.  There is also a plan for who will continue to be issued the current "pre-improved" uniform to depleat those stocks as the "not-new" uniforms start filling supply shelves on Army bases.


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## MikeL (29 Jun 2011)

If possible, could someone email me over the DIN with the powerpoint?


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## Wolf117 (1 Jul 2011)

Ditto on the DIN email please.  PM me if you have it and I'll send my email info your way.  Sounds interesting.


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## HollywoodCowboy (1 Jul 2011)

To be honest, if you know what the US Army ACU uniform looks like, it's just that in cadpat.


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## Wolf117 (1 Jul 2011)

Were there any photos in the PPT?


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## Nfld Sapper (1 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Were there any photos in the PPT?



Yes


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## Forester (4 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Ditto on the DIN email please.  PM me if you have it and I'll send my email info your way.  Sounds interesting.



Myself as well please.


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jul 2011)

How can I get a copy? Thanks


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## RCR Grunt (4 Jul 2011)

I'd also like to see a copy.  Thanks in advance.


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jul 2011)

Which begs the question that I have always wondered: will we be forced to blouse the pants on these?  And if so, why?


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## dangerboy (4 Jul 2011)

If you are on the DIN, go onto Documentum then Crse Material/06 Inf/ 1- Others/D-Inf/Ex Bayonet 11 then open the PPT called 13052011_DLR5 Brief.  Here is the link not sure if it will work http://webtop.gagetown.mil.ca:8080/anonymous-en/component/drl?objectId=0c0004bc800019b1&ReLoad=1132423236316

edited to fix hyperlink


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## OldSolduer (4 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Which begs the question that I have always wondered: will we be forced to blouse the pants on these?  And if so, why?



And the issue with blousing your pants is? While the CF was deployed on cbt ops in Afghanistan or if we are on ops....I don't have an issue with ventilation or circulation....while in garrison and I see troops NOT on a BFT or involved in field type training....then I have issues. So what are the reasons we should not blouse our pants?

Just the crusty old guy rising up again.


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jul 2011)

Jim, what are the (crusty old guy) reasons we SHOULD?

There is no reason to blouse our combat pants aside from "cleanliness".  But then does that mean that we are lesser soldiers when we wear our raingear?  Our Windpants?  Cause I have rarely if ever seen enforcement of those being bloused.


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## OldSolduer (4 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Jim, what are the (crusty old guy) reasons we SHOULD?
> 
> There is no reason to blouse our combat pants aside from "cleanliness".  But then does that mean that we are lesser soldiers when we wear our raingear?  Our Windpants?  Cause I have rarely if ever seen enforcement of those being bloused.



And wind pants rain gear etc should never be bloused. Agreed.

And cleanliness and looking neat is a garrison norm. I think we all know that. I, for one, will not stand for troops looking slovenly in garrison when they have the facilities and time to look their best.

And that includes blousing your pants (not wind pants or rain gear) when required. When CFP 265 says we can walk around with pants unbloused at any time, then its good. Until then, blouse them. Thank you.

So tell me why we should NOT blouse our pants?


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jul 2011)

I am playing devil's advocate here... but I have asked around and no one can ever seem to answer my "why?" question with anything except "because we've always done it like that".

And by the way, searching for the term "blouse" in the CFP265 doesn't bring any regulation that instructs soldiers to wear their combat pants bloused.

Why should we not?  It's easier? The Brits don't do it, neither do the Americans do they?


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## OldSolduer (4 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I am playing devil's advocate here... but I have asked around and no one can ever seem to answer my "why?" question with anything except "because we've always done it like that".
> 
> And by the way, searching for the term "blouse" in the CFP265 doesn't bring any regulation that instructs soldiers to wear their combat pants bloused.
> 
> Why should we not?  It's easier? The Brits don't do it, neither do the Americans do they?



While in garrison the Americans blouse their pants. Not so sure about the Brits...but then again they are Brits. I looked in 265 as well and its outdated.

Note I am only talking garrison here, not the field during a tactical ex. And I am aware that some people seem unable to differentiate between the two.

Devil's advocate is fine....but I need reasons why we should not to see your point of view.


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jul 2011)

And I need reasons why we should to see your point of view.

The 265 and in all the revisions I have has absolutely NO section regarding combat uniforms.  The only reference to blousing is the updated section on MP uniforms.

I understand your point on garrison vs field and to that I reply with this:  Wouldn't it be easier to just have it unbloused all the time?  It would make for a more efficient soldier, no?  As for your "field/tactical" ex.. what about deployments in civvie land?  Do we remain at "parade ready" state just in case?


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## Teflon (4 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And I need reasons why we should to see your point of view.
> 
> The 265 and in all the revisions I have has absolutely NO section regarding combat uniforms.  The only reference to blousing is the updated section on MP uniforms.
> 
> I understand your point on garrison vs field and to that I reply with this:  Wouldn't it be easier to just have it unbloused all the time?  It would make for a more efficient soldier, no?  As for your "field/tactical" ex.. what about deployments in civvie land?  Do we remain at "parade ready" state just in case?



While RSMs, and the CofC maintain that at least in garrison cbt pants will be bloused - no "reasons" are required or for anyone to share Jim's point of view besides the reason of "RSMs, and the CofC maintain that at least in garrison cbt pants will be bloused" at least everywhere I have worked. Also I can't say I have often seen a soldier's effectiveness degraded in garrison due to bloused pants but I may have just missed it.


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## OldSolduer (4 Jul 2011)

I asked you first!! 

My reasons for blousing pants in garrison are simple - and I'm not  a blind obedience sort  or "uniformity at the expense of common sense" kind of person - and that reason is that dress and deportment while you are in garrison is important. A bunch of troops trotting - marching- around with pants unbloused looks like crap. Some may tuck their sand traps in, some may not. Its, IMO, unprofessional looking and touches on the slovenly.

While you are in the field on a tac ex is entirely another matter. Ventilation and circulation is important. If we had allowed troops to unblouse in the field in the 70's and 80s maybe I wouldn't have the unsightliest set of varicose veins on earth.
If we are deployed in civvyland on an op or exercise....that depends on the Chain of Command. A tinge of common sense must be used. 

A few years ago some of the senior leadership didn't like the pictures coming out of the sandbox, troops in FOBs or on patrol with unbloused pants and sleeves rolled half way up.....the rocket went out to put a stop to it.


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## McG (4 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Which begs the question that I have always wondered: will we be forced to blouse the pants on these?  And if so, why?


Because the elastic is built-in.


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## Wolf117 (4 Jul 2011)

The elastic is getting built-in to the newer combats?!  Well sounds like the pocket knives troops carry are going to get a lot of use!


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## Wolf117 (4 Jul 2011)

Also FYI the brits do blouse their boots.  They're just bloused lower than ours.

I don't mind blousing boots.  But field should mean NO bloused boots.  Doing it reduces circulation in your feet and that is the last thing one needs when operating on foot in ex's or ops.


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## Wolf117 (4 Jul 2011)

Oh and another reason blousing shouldn't be allowed in the field is that after performing an attack it gets all screwed up and moves up your calf.  Meaning troops are eFing around fixing it when they should be more worried about hydrating, watching their arcs and re-orging.


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## ModlrMike (4 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Also FYI the brits do blouse their boots.  They're just bloused lower than ours.
> 
> I don't mind blousing boots.  But field should mean NO bloused boots.  Doing it reduces circulation in your feet and that is the last thing one needs when operating on foot in ex's or ops.




If you're impairing the circulation to your feet, you have your pants bloused way too tight. It takes a good deal of pressure to occlude the blood flow to and from your feet.


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## dale622 (4 Jul 2011)

Back on topic..... I would like the link sent to my DIN email as well. PM me and I will give the address. 

and to add.... I support blousing of boots but I don't support having it built in. I like to hang it loose and comfortable in the field as much as the next troop.


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jul 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> If you're impairing the circulation to your feet, you have your pants bloused way too tight. It takes a good deal of pressure to occlude the blood flow to and from your feet.



No an intended derailment here so a reply to my post may be better in a PM. 

When blousing my pants I have used the green elastic bands and the black Velcro bands and both leave big dents in my legs. I have done them up as loose as possible. Is there something I am missing or another product out there that would be better ? Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## vonGarvin (5 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Jim, what are the (crusty old guy) reasons we SHOULD?


The only reason I think we blouse our pants is to prevent wear and tear of the cuffs.  Ironically, this wear and tear would occur most when in the field.  

If you think back to the wars of the 20th Century, where the Germans had jackboots (with pants tucked in), we had gaiters and puttees.

So long as someone still had the inner parts to their lower trouser legs (tucked into their boots), then the "ventilating" part doesn't make sense. (*If* they still had them, of course).

Anyway....


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## Bzzliteyr (5 Jul 2011)

On my most recent tour (Nov-Jan 3-10 until I was punted out) the orders came out from the CoC that pants were to be bloused even on remote OPs.  And clean shaven.


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## Sigs Pig (5 Jul 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> So long as someone still had the inner parts to their lower trouser legs (tucked into their boots), then the "ventilating" part doesn't make sense. (*If* they still had them, of course).


I have wondered that point also....

As to the wear and tear, that would look awful if people had a _bite_ taken out of the heel area while on parade, or even off the square.
I feel that the blousing reason may have to do with various shrinkage or excess lengths, that also would look stupid on the parade square.

ME


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## ballz (5 Jul 2011)

What I don't understand is where the idea that having pants bloused makes your pants more look "clean" and "professional." I understand it is now engrained in some people's minds, but where did it actually come from? What other professional do you know of that blouses anything? I was heading to work one evening and my civie roommate and his civie friends were in the living room and saw me blousing my boots, and they asked what the hell I was doing. The blousing boots thing is completely foreign to anything I know of, so I don't get how it became a symbol of "professional."

If anything, it does the opposite in the grand scheme. It creates yet another opportunity for someone or something to be out of place and unconformed. Just more BS making sure you have boot bands with you and spares kicking around and etc. Or your boot becomes unbloused in the back and you don't realize it, or your sandtrap sticks out a bit.

It also gives some crusty old farts a reason to be stupid about something (sorry, not directed at the crusty old farts in this thread  ). AKA the stories we are now hearing of being told to blouse in the field. I got jacked up this summer by a different platoon's staff because they were making their platoon blouse in the field and I was walking past, unbloused. Sorry budds but come out from under your rock, the rest of the entire Coy including the staff don't have 'em bloused, so you're just right the frig outta 'er.

Now, having them bloused in garrison doesn't bother me, I'm not complaining. If that's the rule, fine, I've got other things I'd like to complain about before I start worrying about changing that rule. Like Jim said, in garrison there's tons of time and tons of sleep the night before to make sure they are bloused properly. However, both "why" and "why not" were asked, and I can see "why not" but I'm not sure I buy the "why."

TV's "why" might make some sense, never thought about that... But my trouser pants dont extend down far enough to get trampled, and I'm not sure we should be in the field worrying about extending the life of our pants. If we are, it's a boring field ex.

Just my 2 cents, you can have a refund if you'd like


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## Bzzliteyr (5 Jul 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I asked you first!!



Actually, I asked first.  Neener Neener.



			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Which begs the question that I have always wondered: will we be forced to blouse the pants on these?  And if so, why?


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## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Actually, I asked first.  Neener Neener.



Oh Wise guy eh? Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk.....


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## Michael OLeary (5 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Which begs the question that I have always wondered: will we be forced to blouse the pants on these?  And if so, why?



For the same reason that men are required to have short hair, we wear ties with DEU and we blacken or polish our footwear - because the powers that be have decided to continue supporting the idea that they present a military appearance. If you can present a solid argument to change any of these things, make your case and get it seen. (Here's one option for that..) Convincing anyone here isn't going to change the system.


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## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2011)

The puttee question: answer is!!

puttee, also spelled puttie, is the name, adapted from the Hindi patti, bandage (Skr. patta, strip of cloth), for a covering for the lower part of the leg from the ankle to the knee, consisting of a long narrow piece of cloth wound tightly and spirally round the leg, and serving both as a support and protection, worn especially by riders, and taking the place of the leather or cloth gaiter. It was once adopted as part of the uniform of foot and mounted soldiers in several armies, including the United States Army and the armies of the British Commonwealth.


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## ballz (5 Jul 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> For the same reason that men are required to have short hair, we wear ties with DEU and we blacken or polish our footwear - because the powers that be have decided to continue supporting the idea that they present a military appearance.



Based on what our culture considers to be a "professional" appearance. We are far from alone, as professionals, in having short hair, wearing ties, blazers, with shiny shoes. We are rather alone in blousing boots. So your answer doesn't address the "where does the idea that blousing your boots is a characteristic of being a professional?" question I answered. However...



			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The puttee question: answer is!!
> 
> puttee, also spelled puttie, is the name, adapted from the Hindi patti, bandage (Skr. patta, strip of cloth), for a covering for the lower part of the leg from the ankle to the knee, consisting of a long narrow piece of cloth wound tightly and spirally round the leg, and serving both as a support and protection, worn especially by riders, and taking the place of the leather or cloth gaiter. It was once adopted as part of the uniform of foot and mounted soldiers in several armies, including the United States Army and the armies of the British Commonwealth.



Thanks for that one Jim, this answers that question. Clearly it originated with a *functional* purpose (it was never about a professional image at all). I also enjoyed reading the rest of that wiki link about the Blue Puttees.. I was wondering why the new Marine Atlantic boat from North Sydney - Port Aux Basques was named the "Blue Puttee" and what the hell it meant 



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> If you can present a solid argument to change any of these things, make your case and get it seen. (Here's one option for that..) Convincing anyone here isn't going to change the system.



Personally, like I said, I can't be arsed about something so insignificant.


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## xena (5 Jul 2011)

Uh, oh.  People will get ideas.  Puttees instead of blousing...

 >


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## Teflon (5 Jul 2011)

> We are rather alone in blousing boots



Google "US Soldiers" or "British Soldiers" in Google images and you will recieve coutless images of thier troops with bloused pant legs (in the field no less (granted most are bloused using the in-place ties at the cuff of the pants but I would hardly call us alone in blousing of boots.


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## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2011)

ivan the tolerable said:
			
		

> Uh, oh.  People will get ideas.  Puttees instead of blousing...
> 
> >



Hmmmmmm....Ivan you may be onto something.....I shall have to write a paper on this forthwith!!!


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## Pusser (5 Jul 2011)

I always assumed that puttees, gaiters and blousing (three methods of doing essentially the same thing and all of which have been used in combat for the past century and a half) had their origins in the practicality of keeping your trouser cuffs out of the mud and preventing bugs, sand  and what not from getting inside.  They also prevent the open trouser cuff from getting caught on things.  I will say it makes more sense and looks better than the naval practice of stuffing one's trousers into one's socks (and donning hoods and evening gloves) when the alarm goes off!

On the topic of the Improved Combat Uniform, is velcro on everything a good idea?  I would think velcro would be really bad when you're trying to be quiet, but need to get into a pocket.


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## ballz (5 Jul 2011)

Teflon said:
			
		

> Google "US Soldiers" or "British Soldiers" in Google images and you will recieve coutless images of thier troops with bloused pant legs (in the field no less (granted most are bloused using the in-place ties at the cuff of the pants but I would hardly call us alone in blousing of boots.



Read my entire post and not a select seven words. I am talking about our culture's view of a professional image, not specifically the military. Military's are alone in considering "blousing boots" to be part of a professional image. Go find me a lawyer, doctor, accountant, etc with bloused boots. You won't, because it's not part of our culture's perception of how a professional should dress at all.

As was pointed out and proven already, boot blousing has nothing to do with a professional image, *nothing,* it never did and it never has. It was born out of necessity and served a functional purpose. That purpose is now lost, but tradition carries on. Which is fine, I am okay with that, I like traditions, and I think those puttees look pretty bad-*** too... just don't tell me that it's because it looks professional, because that has nothing to do with it.


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## Old Sweat (5 Jul 2011)

ivan the tolerable said:
			
		

> Uh, oh.  People will get ideas.  Puttees instead of blousing...
> 
> >


As one of the few members who wore puttees, they were hot, uncomfortable and prone to coming off at unfortunate times. Mind you, I never had the last happen to my puttees, and they did look very sharp with battledress on parade. However, Jim Seggie mentioned varicose veins and nothing could match a pair of puttees pulled extra tight around the bottoms of battledress trousers pulled tight and safety pinned so the weights (think a length of skate lace stuffed with 9mm slugs) would hang properly for setting one up for circulation problems in the future. When they were taken out of wear in the late sixties, we had a puttee burning party in the mess in Shilo, and throughly enjoyed the experience.


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## McG (5 Jul 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Based on what our culture considers to be a "professional" appearance. We are far from alone, as professionals, in having short hair, wearing ties, blazers, with shiny shoes. We are rather alone in blousing boots. So your answer doesn't address the "where does the idea that blousing your boots is a characteristic of being a professional?" question I answered. However...


If you look at the words in the quote you are replying to, you will note that "professional appearance" is not there.  The phrase "military appearance" is found in that text, and my observations of many different nations seems to suggest that the bloused pants are part of a fairly common military appearance (and not just the US and UK that have been noted by others).  And blousing is functional.

Personally, I have never noticed ventilation or circulation to have improved as a result of my pants being unbloused.  I have noticed that the pants dry quicker when unbloused, but that is the only functional value I have ever found in unblousing and (as of yet) nobody is arguing we should unblouse for this.  Conversely, the cuffs of my pants have never snagged on anything while bloused (an occurrence that has cause tripping and tearing when unbloused), I have never had insects, abrasive/prickly plants or other natural irritants get up into my pant legs  or spill down into my boots while pants were bloused (something that again seems to happen when they are left loose), and I have never had hot ash spill into the top of my boots while my pants were bloused  ... what?  Where did that last one come from?  It seems wildland fire fighters, as part of their professional attire, also worry about forming a seal to prevent things getting into the boot top or up the pant leg ... only anyone that has done a DOMOP in this role will tell you they like to keep their seal a lot tighter than our circulation impairing blousing.


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## Teflon (5 Jul 2011)

> Read my entire post and not a select seven words. I am talking about our culture's view of a professional image, not specifically the military. Military's are alone in considering "blousing boots" to be part of a professional image. Go find me a lawyer, doctor, accountant, etc with bloused boots. You won't, because it's not part of our culture's perception of how a professional should dress at all.



I took your comment as meaning that Canada's military was alone blousing of boots which was what I was adressing and not if blousing of boots "looked professional" if I missunderstood your meaning then sorry about that (no intent to upset you) I also did read read your entire post but since I was only commenting on one part of it I only quoted that part

As to the functional value of blousing - we can and I am sure we will continue to disagree


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## mariomike (5 Jul 2011)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> When they were taken out of wear in the late sixties, we had a puttee burning party in the mess in Shilo, and throughly enjoyed the experience.



Toronto Service Battalion ( militia ) was still wearing puttees into the early 1970's.


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## Troopasaurus (5 Jul 2011)

> On the topic of the Improved Combat Uniform, is velcro on everything a good idea?  I would think velcro would be really bad when you're trying to be quiet, but need to get into a pocket.



Just open it tactically...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK3maq8Cyk


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## Old Sweat (5 Jul 2011)

There was an amendment to dress instructions that took puttees out of wear, and it was published in routine orders. The socks, circular were only worn in garrison as we had combats for the field. For protection of the leg, and to keep sweat from getting out, the double bottoms on the combat trousers were ideal.


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## old fart (5 Jul 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Toronto Service Battalion ( militia ) was still wearing puttees into the early 1970's.



I wore them in the Brits up to about 83.....when high leg boots became the norm...although before that we had high leg boots for Northern Ireland...and many bought their own high leg boots and were allowed to wear them .... dropping puttees unless required for a parade etc...

I have always ripped out the sand-traps and bloused a bit lower than most.....and as for the field....generally on ops /ex favored un-bloused and still do....although not all stick men saw it the same way when I was a young fella...


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## ballz (5 Jul 2011)

Teflon said:
			
		

> if I missunderstood your meaning then sorry about that (no intent to upset you)



You did but no need for apologies now, I am not upset.



			
				Teflon said:
			
		

> As to the functional value of blousing - we can and I am sure we will continue to disagree



Most likely, which is fine of course as long as we aren't telling each other whether or not to blouse in the field, because that would be silly. And once it comes to garrison, I don't care one way or another, as I am too busy bitching and moaning about getting a boot allowance :nod:



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> If you look at the words in the quote you are replying to, you will note that "professional appearance" is not there.  The phrase "military appearance" is found in that text, and my observations of many different nations seems to suggest that the bloused pants are part of a fairly common military appearance (and not just the US and UK that have been noted by others).  And blousing is functional.



If you look at what I was being quoted on, I was speaking of professional appearance. Anywho, enough of that.



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> Personally, I have never noticed ventilation or circulation to have improved as a result of my pants being unbloused.  I have noticed that the pants dry quicker when unbloused, but that is the only functional value I have ever found in unblousing and (as of yet) nobody is arguing we should unblouse for this.  Conversely, the cuffs of my pants have never snagged on anything while bloused (an occurrence that has cause tripping and tearing when unbloused), I have never had insects, abrasive/prickly plants or other natural irritants get up into my pant legs  or spill down into my boots while pants were bloused (something that again seems to happen when they are left loose), and I have never had hot ash spill into the top of my boots while my pants were bloused  ... what?  Where did that last one come from?  It seems wildland fire fighters, as part of their professional attire, also worry about forming a seal to prevent things getting into the boot top or up the pant leg ... only anyone that has done a DOMOP in this role will tell you they like to keep their seal a lot tighter than our circulation impairing blousing.



My personal reasons for not liking them bloused in the field is plainly comfort. I find it better for running and better for my knee pad if my pant leg can move freely. I never noticed the drying part, but I suppose I've never bloused in the field to compare it to. It's also annoying to be fixing them all the time. They come unbloused every second you have to do something, so it's just not worth blousing them to me.

It is personal preference more than functionability IMO, so in the field it's stupid to be enforcing it. :-\

EDIT: Oh yes I wanted to add that you firefighter example was a good thought-provoking example and does make a good argument that it's not just the military that does the blousing thing.


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## Danjanou (5 Jul 2011)

ivan the tolerable said:
			
		

> Uh, oh.  People will get ideas.  Puttees instead of blousing...
> 
> >



Screw it lets go back to shorts  8)


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## PPCLI Guy (5 Jul 2011)

Gap and ER Campbell in the same photo?   >


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## Bzzliteyr (5 Jul 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> On the topic of the Improved Combat Uniform, is velcro on everything a good idea?  I would think velcro would be really bad when you're trying to be quiet, but need to get into a pocket.



Which brings me to this: am I the only one that has issues with the fact that they seem to use the MALE velcro on the wrong side?  Take a look at your combat pant pocket - the male side (scratchy) velcro is on the part that can touch your wrist.  I recall the same thing for the old rainsuit.  If they had reversed it, the nice soft velcro would be rubbing my wrist when I have my hands in my pockets.

I can hear Jim Seggie now: "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOUR HANDS DOING IN YOUR POCKETS?!?!?!"


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## medicineman (5 Jul 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Screw it lets go back to shorts  8)



Can we get the cool Rhodesian bush hats too?  Can we bring the FN back too :nod:?

MM


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## Haletown (5 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Oh and another reason blousing shouldn't be allowed in the field is that after performing an attack it gets all screwed up and moves up your calf.  Meaning troops are eFing around fixing it when they should be more worried about hydrating, watching their arcs and re-orging.



Ahhhh reminds me of the old days, eFing around with my puttees, trying to invent velcro without even knowing about it  ;D


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## old fart (5 Jul 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> ............................that it's not just the military that does the blousing thing.



Certainly true  in the case of this fella... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lW-cZEzP2A  

He loves it that much he posted a 'how to clip' on youtube  making it look oh so easy!!.....The idea to use Walmart ponytail ties (and the like) is revolutionary (choke) and could be the answer for those who find blousing leaves marks/indentations on their legs.....blousing lower over the boot not on top of.....of course prevents that painful affliction.... 

That's my three cents on all this blousing bollocks......


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I can hear Jim Seggie now: "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOUR HANDS DOING IN YOUR POCKETS?!?!?!"



I dunno about you....mine are in my pockets because they are cold.


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 Jul 2011)

old fart said:
			
		

> Certainly true  in the case of this fella... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lW-cZEzP2A
> 
> He loves it that much he posted a 'how to clip' on youtube  making it look oh so easy!!.....The idea to use Walmart ponytail ties (and the like) is revolutionary (choke) and could be the answer for those who find blousing leaves marks/indentations on their legs.....blousing lower over the boot not on top of.....of course prevents that painful affliction....
> 
> That's my three cents on all this blousing bollocks......



lol Thank you!


----------



## Wolf117 (5 Jul 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> If you're impairing the circulation to your feet, you have your pants bloused way too tight. It takes a good deal of pressure to occlude the blood flow to and from your feet.



I use large velcro wraps instead of those idiotic green elastics they sell at Canex.  It really matters not how loose or tight I put them on, prolonged wearing of them leads to poor circulation.  There's a reason that airlines give out loose fitting socks on long haul trips.  However, even with the looser fitting socks there is still going to be some reduced circulation and red marks left afterwards.  The same principle is true of boot bands.  Troops don't just unblouse in the field to look like rockstars, it's because it make practical sense.


----------



## Michael OLeary (5 Jul 2011)

Have you spoken to an MO about poor circulation? I've been blousing combat pants for over thirty years and have not had this problem nor has it been brought to my attention as an issue.


----------



## old fart (5 Jul 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Have you spoken to an MO about poor circulation? I've been blousing combat pants for over thirty years and have not had this problem nor has it been brought to my attention as an issue.



One more cents worth....DITTO.....


----------



## aesop081 (5 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> However, even with the looser fitting socks there is still going to be some reduced circulation and red marks left afterwards.



I can't say i have ever had that problem and i fly some pretty long missions, sometimes multiple times a week.


----------



## ballz (5 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Troops don't just unblouse in the field to look like rockstars



But now that you mention it, that is a pretty good reason...


----------



## DirtyDog (5 Jul 2011)

Wow, what a whinefest in here.

Circulation problems?  Please.

I've rarely (let alone "every second") had a bloused pant come undone, and that's through all kinds of terrain.  No issues with kneepads either and I always wear a knee pad.  Same goes for running.  Never thought to myself "Man, if only my pants were unbloused, I'd make it to that piece of low ground faster!".

The only benefit I've ever found from being unbloused was that little bit of fabric between my boot and the desert sun, and that they dry out a little quicker (although my sandtraps are always tucked in anyway).

I generally prefer to be bloused in the field and most times I don't have a choice anyway.  And that includes the sandbox.  It's just more streamlined and neater.  Much less chance on things getting snagged and no dragging cuffs around in mud (or Afghan "fertilizer" for that matter).

Believe me, I'm not one to generally tow the party line and my combat pants were nearly the only issue piece of kit I wore, but it is a lot about wanting to look like a rockstar.  Of that I have no doubt.

If troops were unbloused there is absolutely no doubt we would look a lot less professional.  I have short legs and unless my pants were tailored, they'd be pretty damn sloppy.


----------



## DirtyDog (5 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> I use large velcro wraps instead of those idiotic green elastics they sell at Canex.


I tried those wraps... once.

They now keep my ridgerest neatly rolled up.


----------



## SoldierInAYear (5 Jul 2011)

Troopasaurus said:
			
		

> Just open it tactically...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK3maq8Cyk



Hahaha


----------



## ballz (5 Jul 2011)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> I have short legs and unless my pants were tailored, they'd be pretty damn sloppy.



Maybe that's why you have no problems with blousings coming out. I have to pull the bottoms of my pants legs down everytime I get out of my car just because sitting in the car makes them ride halfway up my calf. I had to take the sandtraps out because nearly everytime, for the same reason, parts of the sandtraps would get pulled out and stick out.

Again, personal preference. I don't really care whether you've never once had your blousing get effed up by something ( : ). I have.

Or maybe I'm just making that up, and so is 51% of the CF.


----------



## dangerboy (5 Jul 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Or maybe I'm just making that up, and so is 51% of the CF.



Where did the number that 51% of the CF has problems with their pants being bloused come from.


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2011)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Where did the number that 51% of the CF has problems with their pants being bloused come from.



I'd like to know as well.


----------



## DirtyDog (5 Jul 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Maybe that's why you have no problems with blousings coming out. I have to pull the bottoms of my pants legs down everytime I get out of my car just because sitting in the car makes them ride halfway up my calf. I had to take the sandtraps out because nearly everytime, for the same reason, parts of the sandtraps would get pulled out and stick out.
> 
> Again, personal preference. I don't really care whether you've never once had your blousing get effed up by something ( : ). I have.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just making that up, and so is 51% of the CF.


So your pants are literally that short on you?  I know there's sizing issues for uniforms, but i'd have thought there would be a pant length that was ample.  Maybe you need longer pants?  I'm not doubting you, but it seems improbable that your pants are so short you can't even bend your legs without them riding up.

Also, I said rarely, not "never once".    Of course I'm not some guy with a dozen years under my belt, but I've been around a little bit and have done a few things.  It's just not an issue.  I'm curious what wealth of field experience you draw from?

Where did this 51% come from?


----------



## ballz (5 Jul 2011)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> So your pants are literally that short on you?  I know there's sizing issues for uniforms, but i'd have thought there would be a pant length that was ample.  Maybe you need longer pants?  I'm not doubting you, but it seems improbable that your pants are so short you can't even bend your legs without them riding up.
> 
> Also, I said rarely, not "never once".    Of course I'm not some guy with a dozen years under my belt, but I've been around a little bit and have done a few things.  It's just not an issue.  I'm curious what wealth of field experience you draw from?
> 
> Where did this 51% come from?



I'm not sure what the problem is. I am not awkwardly proportioned. I am 5'10, 180 lbs. When I first got issued combats I was 210 lbs and they were a size bigger in the waist, but AFAIK they were not longer in the legs. I never had problems until I lost weight and switched to a smaller waist size. I *am* going to clothing stores to exchange a pair of ripped pants and I am going to get a different size to try, however, without blousings my pant legs rest on the top of my foot nicely (but dont go under my heel), so I don't think length is the issue.

I have almost no experience. I used to even have a disclaimer saying so but I liked that Helen Keller quote. But I think I have enough experience to know blousing doesn't work for me in the field and I definitely prefer unbloused. 

The 51% was meant to be a metaphor, I didn't think it would be interpreted as a hard stat.

Anyway, thank you Jim for providing the info about puttees and the origin of this tradition. I am out of this one because it's pretty clearly established by all the shenanigans (mine included) that it's personal preference in the field, and I don't have a dog in the debate over garrison.

EDIT: Oh yes and honest, sincere apologies for misquoting you DD. Not sure what I was smoking on that one but I will share next time haha.


----------



## DirtyDog (5 Jul 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what the problem is. I am not awkwardly proportioned. I am 5'10, 180 lbs. When I first got issued combats I was 210 lbs and they were a size bigger in the waist, but AFAIK they were not longer in the legs. I never had problems until I lost weight and switched to a smaller waist size. I *am* going to clothing stores to exchange a pair of ripped pants and I am going to get a different size to try, however, without blousings my pant legs rest on the top of my foot nicely (but dont go under my heel), so I don't think length is the issue.
> 
> I have almost no experience. I used to even have a disclaimer saying so but I liked that Helen Keller quote. But I think I have enough experience to know blousing doesn't work for me in the field and I definitely prefer unbloused.
> 
> ...


No worries.

Trust me, I understand the intricities of "personal preference" and I've made my feelings clear on a whole host of kit I have a problem with.  I've just never considered the boot blousing thing to be a big deal although a lot of my peers do.  I really do think the "rockstar" mentality is a large part of it and the compulsion to want to rebel against the dinosaurs.

People complain about it a lot, but there are no massively compelling arguments against it, just as there is no hugely compelling reasons for it.


----------



## Wolf117 (6 Jul 2011)

No problems with circulation here.  I blouse my boots the way the brits do, over top of the boot instead of directly on the leg.  That eliminates any discomfort from pressure points.

But there is a legitimate reason as to why hospitals give out compression stockings and airlines hand out flight socks.  But don't take my word on it, ask any doctor about DVT.

Actually come to think about it deep vein thrombosis is probably more of a concern for those working in a cubicle and in a garrison setting.  Think I recall a lively debate on that a page or two ago.

In any case I'd just like to ask CDNAviator how many times he blouses his flightsuit on those long flights.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> In any case I'd just like to ask CDNAviator how many times he blouses his flightsuit on those long flights.



I'm sorry, you were talking about socks and loose fitting socks, not blousing anything :



			
				Wolf117 said:
			
		

> There's a reason that airlines give out loose fitting socks on long haul trips.  _*However, even with the looser fitting socks there is still going to be some reduced circulation and red marks left afterwards.*_



Now i wear the issue socks (not too loose fitting) and have never, in all my flying career, had reduced curculation problems nor red marks afterwards. I can;t speak for anyone else of course.


----------



## darkskye (6 Jul 2011)

I would like a copy of the link to the powerpoint presentation sent to my DIN account. Send me a private message and I will send you my DIN account.


----------



## Wolf117 (6 Jul 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, you were talking about socks and loose fitting socks, not blousing anything :
> 
> Now i wear the issue socks (not too loose fitting) and have never, in all my flying career, had reduced curculation problems nor red marks afterwards. I can;t speak for anyone else of course.



 I was using the example of compression flight socks given out by airlines to illustrate a point that there does exist an issue with people having reduced circulation and being more prone to deep vein thrombosis as a result of prolonged pressure points.  In that case it would be caused by civilian attire socks or the like.

I never said there was anything wrong with the issued military socks, and I for one have never experienced any issues from any of the issued socks.  (Perhaps that's because they cut off higher on the calf than sport socks do or higher still than where the blouser sits on one's leg).

But the fact remains that prolonged sitting on a flight (anyone who's flown over the Atlantic or Pacific as a passenger can attest to this) will lead to blood pooling in the lower extremeties and that pressure points are not helpful in reducing this.

The airlines don't give out these socks because they think they're stylish (for they surely are not).  Nor does the hospital issue compression leggings to make you look like you're about to perform a ballet when you clearly are going under the knife.

Now perhaps you're situation on your flights are different.  Perhaps you get to move about the cabin more frequently.  And as I've said, the combination of military sock, boot and unbloused pantleg (which I'm assuming is how you go to work) lends itself to a more comfortable feel.  I've spent hours sitting in the swing seat in the air sentry position of a LAV and can agree with you that I've never had the military sock reduce circulation in my legs in those cases.  However, force me to wear a blouser in the manner that most Canadians wear them and I'll find it uncomfortable in the way that ballz described it.  That's why my platoon overseas had a policy of unbloused outside the wire (if you want to) and that's the main reason the majority of my peers chose to go this way.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Jul 2011)

Just for curiosity's sake, can you tell me what airlines do this ?

I have flow trans-oceanic on a few airlines and all i ever got was hot pieces of wet cloth. I sure hope those were not socks because............  ;D


----------



## Wolf117 (6 Jul 2011)

Sure both Air Brunei and Air Emirates do this complimentary for long duration flights.  I flew to New Zealand four times to and from Dubai and experienced that.  I also saw Continental provide these for a trans-Atlantic flight.

Of course not all airlines are equal.  Quantas left them out of my flight to L.A. from Auckland.

If you'd like to read more.

http://www.flightsocks.co/gctech-socks.asp


----------



## dimsum (6 Jul 2011)

...not to "derail" this thread about socks   , but what's changed with the uniform?  Is there a non-DIN picture or description?


----------



## old fart (6 Jul 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> ...not to "derail" this thread about socks   , but what's changed with the uniform?  Is there a non-DIN picture or description?



Here you go....it's the main contender with flight sock qualities built in....

http://img3.doitstyle.com/super/4b56dd1d12ac6.jpg

and of course the arid version.... 

http://superfansuits.com/images/img-product-brown-camo1-f.png


----------



## Gunner98 (6 Jul 2011)

Changes:

- Mandarin collar & velcro
- Flat chest pockets & rank
- Velcro on all pant pockets (side leg pockets remain)
- Velcro closures & elastic cord & lock for pant hems (storm flap remains)
- Back - Flap for increased range of motion for the same size
- Pockets: Arms + pen pockets on sleeves;
- Velcro attachment on sleeve cuffs;
- No more draw strings;
- Better fit; and
- Integrated kneepads.


----------



## buzgo (6 Jul 2011)

Why are we going all velcro when the Americans have been complaining about the velcro on the ACU since it came out?


----------



## BDTyre (6 Jul 2011)

old fart said:
			
		

> Here you go....it's the main contender with flight sock qualities built in....
> 
> http://img3.doitstyle.com/super/4b56dd1d12ac6.jpg
> 
> ...



And of course, these are streamlined and should lead to faster, more efficient soldiers. And I think they will be vastly useful in the realm of psychological warfare.  ;D


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Jul 2011)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Why are we going all velcro when the Americans have been complaining about the velcro on the ACU since it came out?



We're 10 years behind the times. They'll switch to something better than velcro, and we'll just be starting to get combats without buttons.


----------



## Lerch (6 Jul 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> We're 10 years behind the times. They'll switch to something better than velcro, and we'll just be starting to get combats without buttons.



Coincidentally, aren't the Americans putting buttons BACK on their combats?


----------



## Bzzliteyr (6 Jul 2011)

I just remembered another thing I saw done that hasn't been discussed here: what about the soldiers (usually infantry or "jumpers") that tuck their whole pant leg into their boot with that pretty fold?  Where do we sit on that habit?


----------



## Michael OLeary (6 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I just remembered another thing I saw done that hasn't been discussed here: what about the soldiers (usually infantry or "jumpers") that tuck their whole pant leg into their boot with that pretty fold?  Where do we sit on that habit?



And let's not forget the weights to give it an authentic look.



> During the summer season, daily training dress was the Bush Uniform. It was heavy, olive- drab cotton, with lots of pockets and very practical for its original intent. However, when worn in garrison it had to be starched and pressed, laces through the pant cuffs with weights in the bloused trouser legs to be worn with boots and puttees. The sleeves on the jacket had to be rolled-up just above the elbow and not unrolled under any circumstance. No matter how cold it got or how thick and hungry the mosquitoes were, the sleeves were to remain up. You could wear your Sweater High Neck under the jacket to cover your bare arms (which spoiled the "military look") but unless you wished to suffer the wrath of the powers that be, you didn't dare roll down those sleeves. The real "Training Dress", worn over battledress or bush uniform, in winter or summer, needing no pressing, alterations or accoutrements, was the issue black, cotton coveralls. They didn't look very military but were inspection proof and a model of practicality.


  (Source) - Read the whole article to see how terrible it must be to serve in today's army.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jul 2011)

Will someone please pull the pictures out of the Power Point and post them, for people with limited DIN access?

From the sounds of the description, I wouldn't be all that worried about blousing the pants. It sounds like an upgraded camo version of Work dress or Garrison dress.

Get your irons ready, someone's going to want it pressed, and when that keener shows up all sharp creased it's going to catch like a prairie fire.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jul 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And let's not forget the weights to give it an authentic look.
> (Source) - Read the whole article to see how terrible it must be to serve in today's army.



And Tropical Worsted!!! Don't forget our TDubs! ;D


----------



## mariomike (6 Jul 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And let's not forget the weights to give it an authentic look.
> (Source)
> - Read the whole article to see how terrible it must be to serve in today's army.



That's a wonderful article. Thanks for posting.
"Thirty-Seven years of service from January 23rd 1956 to April 1993"


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I just remembered another thing I saw done that hasn't been discussed here: what about the soldiers (usually infantry or "jumpers") that tuck their whole pant leg into their boot with that pretty fold?  Where do we sit on that habit?



Like one of my soldiers used to say "that's gay"

Another said "thats crazy talk"


----------



## Bzzliteyr (6 Jul 2011)

In reply to the compression sock discussion, I give you this link I found during lunch.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/04/16/ceps-compression-socks/


----------



## Wolf117 (6 Jul 2011)

In any case I've said my piece as to the comfort and potential hazards of elastic boot blousing and other kinds of pressure points.  I'm NOT saying we need compression socks or leggings, I was simply using those examples to show that there does exist an issue with pressure points from clothing reducing good circulation.  Because there was a group of people calling into question the validity of that statement.  As I've said a few times already ask any doctor if pressure points or tight fitting clothing can inhibit circulation and you'll get the same answer.

Our uniforms have undergone many changes over the past century and in this one.  The majority of those changes occured as a result of advancements in our understanding of ergonomics and how equipment fits to our bodies.  (Trying to force bodies to fit equipment only causes injuries).  

The combat soldier of WW1 wore shoes that bear closer resemblance to office or formal wear shoes than they do to modern combat boots or hiking footwear.  It took time and research to learn that one could lessen the ammount of injuries by providing footwear with better ankle support, tread and shock absorbtion.  Fast forward to today and you've got orthodics, vibram soles etc.

Or take the example of how our helmets have gone from simple steel hats held on by a strap to todays helmet with wraps around the face to stay secure.

The boot blousing issue is no different from any other change in combat attire.  And clearly whoever is on this project has taken that into account seeing as there is the option to secure the pantleg at the ankle with a velcro cuff.   To give troops options in the field.  The same is true of these combat shirts' sleves which not only allow people to use different cuff sizes depending on the thickness of their wrists; but are actually pleated at the shoulder to let the sleve move with the arm instead of tightening around the wrist when one is bringing a rifle up to the shoulder or extending their arms.

It is good to see those who are in positions to effect change are listening to the various deficiencies to provide an improved product to troops.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Jul 2011)

I converted the Powerpoint to a PDF file.....


----------



## Wolf117 (6 Jul 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I converted the Powerpoint to a PDF file.....



Hats off to you, that's awesome.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jul 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I converted the Powerpoint to a PDF file.....



Cheers. It's appreciated.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Jul 2011)

No problem gang, I take payments in form of ice cold MGD's......


----------



## buzgo (6 Jul 2011)

Interesting....

Improved, not new and NO MULTICAM.

Although I wasn't holding my breath for us adopting it, it is really starting to look like Multicam is becoming the ABCA camouflage pattern of choice!


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Jul 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I converted the Powerpoint to a PDF file.....



Thanks!


----------



## Lerch (7 Jul 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> MGD?  Is that a kind of military bridge?  I heard the Canadian Military Engineers put up a military bridge at a place called Trouty last year...



...Miller Genuine Draft?


----------



## BDTyre (7 Jul 2011)

Why wait to get this new, ICU? I'm pretty sure Dave's Surplus already sells it, in CADPAT.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (7 Jul 2011)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Interesting....
> 
> Improved, not new and NO MULTICAM.
> 
> Although I wasn't holding my breath for us adopting it, it is really starting to look like Multicam is becoming the ABCA camouflage pattern of choice!



Why would you want it to be "multicam"?


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Jul 2011)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Why would you want it to be "multicam"?



Good question.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jul 2011)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Interesting....
> 
> Improved, not new and NO MULTICAM.
> 
> Although I wasn't holding my breath for us adopting it, it is really starting to look like Multicam is becoming the ABCA camouflage pattern of choice!





			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Why would you want it to be "multicam"?





			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Good question.



The rest of the uniform seems directly stolen from the Yanks, the colour scheme might as well be also.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jul 2011)

MGalantine said:
			
		

> I've been describing it to friends who keep asking for details as "ACU but in CADPAT."



Yup. We've gone from 'Innovator' to 'Imitator'.


----------



## Wolf117 (7 Jul 2011)

Multicam really would be an improvement but CADPAT is still very good.  Wouldn't be very cost effective to spend all that time and money developing CADPAT to just replace it in such a short period of time.  Although multicam is the superior of the two I really don't think it's enough of an improvement to replace all our kit again.

Though I am psyched about us going with the US ACU style clothing.  That program really spent a lot of time being innovative and researching how to make a combat uniform more practical in the field rather than stick to traditional garrison styles.  It's become such a popular design that we are now joining a growing list of nations who are adopting it but in their own unique camo patterns.

Our style of combats hasn't changed much since Korea other than in colour and materials.  Hopefully whenever they do a FULL replacement program they finally start using a material which is more fire resistant.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (7 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Although multicam is the superior of the two



How so?


----------



## vonGarvin (7 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Although multicam is the superior of the two


You make this statement based on what?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Our style of combats hasn't changed much since Korea other than in colour and materials.



That's hogwash and you're talking through your hat on that point also. Bush, battledress and the TW's of the Korean era don't even equate to combat clothing,  OD or CADPAT. A few of us around here can attest to the difference in those uniforms and that your statement is dead wrong.


----------



## Wolf117 (7 Jul 2011)

Based on the plethora of terrains in which Multicam can stay an effective camo pattern.  Desert, semi-arid, tropical, temperate, boreal etc.  Whereas our CADPAT TW really is best suited to pine forest and the spring/summer seasons in temperate climates.  I use multicam to hunt with and find it far more effective than CADPAT in the fall timeframe because at that time vegetation is dying off and there is far more dry grass, bark and brown tones to stay blended with than the very green CADPAT.

Even our OD green was better at blending with the dry prarie grass or almost tan grass that much of Canada becomes after the summer passes.

So because CADPAT TW is really more of a niche climate/timeframe camo and because Multicam can consistently perform in a multitide of terrains at various times of the year, I feel that's an appropriate statement.

Let me give you this example as well.  In Kandahar, we regularily went from barren wasteland terrain to very green farmland.  The CADPAT AR was well suited to the first, however, you stuck out like a sore thumb in Pot fields and farmland.  If you had multicam, you could be safe in the assertion that you'd be able to transition between these different zones and maintain the same level of concealment.

That's why the Aussies are switching to multicam, the Brits and US already have and the special forces of many different nations are using it.  Even the Polish Army adopted their own version of the pattern.

Don't misunderstand me here.  I am not saying we should switch.  CADPAT is a fine pattern and will work well for what we need it for.  However, if you compare the two objectively it's hard to say that CADPAT is better than multicam because it just can't cover the same level of variety of environments that multicam can.


----------



## Wolf117 (8 Jul 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's hogwash and you're talking through your hat on that point also. Bush, battledress and the TW's of the Korean era don't even equate to combat clothing,  OD or CADPAT. A few of us around here can attest to the difference in those uniforms and that your statement is dead wrong.



Well I certainly didn't mean to create any hostility here.  But if you want to discuss my statement then fine.

What I was saying with that very short, generalization is this.  That many features of our combat dress has either stayed the same or not changed a hell of a lot since the 1950s.  Other than in material used or pattern or colour.

So since you have a problem with me making that assertion, I'll break down the reasons why I made that generalization.

1. The colar on combat dress has maintained the "gentleman's" style since the battle dress of the 1950s.  Illustrated here pretty plainly.














2. Since the introduction of the nylon combat dress in the 1960s, the angled pockets have changed little other than in minor ways such as the addition of material to cover where the buttons are and slight resizing.  However, if you compare the overall design of the OD combat shirt and the various generations of the CADPAT ones, you'll see that very little changed in design.  The angled pockets on the breast stayed, the large cargo pockets as well stayed.  The angled breast pockets which were initally meant as a means of carrying some magazines stayed, even though this is nowhere near an acceptable means of carrying ammunition in combat today.

3. The use of drawcords stayed over this same time period.

4. The cuffs and shirt closure buttons did not change except for being concealed by material in the later generations of CADPAT shirts.

The designers of this new ICU even admit in the powerpoint that's been posted here that this will be the biggest departure in combat clothe design for Canada since the 1950s.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Jul 2011)

You can try justify your statement all you want. The fact that a jacket has two breast pockets fails to equate those uniforms. Eisenhower jackets are not near the same cut as combats either, gentleman collars be damned. However, I'm sure you'll discuss night is day as been your practice here so far and that's ok, it's only an opinion. I'll agree not much has changed since the introduction of _combats_, but you can't equate it to Korea dated uniforms, no matter what the 'designers' say. Those would be the same 'designers' that just copied someone else's uniform, right? In literature, it's called plagiarism.

I've worn it all and you can't fool me  ;D


----------



## Wolf117 (8 Jul 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You can try justify your statement all you want. The fact that a jacket has two breast pockets fails to equate those uniforms. Eisenhower jackets are not near the same cut as combats either, gentleman collars be damned. However, I'm sure you'll discuss night is day as been your practice here so far and that's ok, it's only an opinion. I'll agree not much has changed since the introduction of _combats_, but you can't equate it to Korea dated uniforms, no matter what the 'designers' say. Those would be the same 'designers' that just copied someone else's uniform, right? In literature, it's called plagiarism.
> 
> I've worn it all and you can't fool me  ;D



Not justifying a statement, simply clarifying it since you seemed to take it as I was saying they are the exact same uniform.
The statement I made was a generalization.  I did not at any point say they are the same uniform.  What I did say was they have not changed much.  Save for some materials, colours and slight variations in design.

Other than the collar, sleves, use of buttons for closure, epaulet placement on that particular shirt, there are other designs that date to Korea you are overlooking.  The cargo pocket design Canadian uniforms have been characterized by over the past half century and which remain on today's combat clothes were also designed and worn on Korea era uniforms.  I'll give you the example of a combat coat worn by Canadians in Korea.





The general principle in design of our uniforms have kept with the gentleman's combat uniform.  (be it the collar, cuffs, sleve design, epaulet placement)  In that for a soldier to look 'good' on parade is equal or more important than taking into account changes in tactics, feedback in functionality from the field etc.  Clearly someone is listening as we can see by this new initiative.

Thankfully the design of military equipment is not literature and adopting practical changes that have now been validated through real world experiences is not a bad thing, regardless of who came up with them first.  
We also won't be the first allied nation to go this way with our uniforms.  There have been many adopting copies or slight variations of this style.  For good reason, it works for current soldiers under fire.
Latvia




Poland




Slovakia




Italy




Croatia




Estonia




Yes EVEN Afghanistan and Iraq









This improved CADPAT uniform actually has design features that will be useful to current soldiers.  The most important in my mind would be the collar which actually serves a use as a means of protecting your neck from chaffing when wearing body armour and load bearing gear for extended periods of time.  Pockets on the sleves, which are actually accessible when wearing body armour (as opposed to the dated FN C1 mag breast pockets which serve no use to me other than soaking up sweat under my armour.)  And pleates at the shoulders to let the sleves move with your arms as opposed to the current design which only tightens around your wrists as you bring your weapon up.  In short, this is a uniform based on current day needs and functionality in the field.  That's why I and every other troop I've spoken with about this are happy to see this sort of change coming.

I've been proud to wear the OD combat uniform, the CADPAT TW uniform, the CADPAT AR uniform and I'll be just as proud to wear this Improved Combat Uniform.  Regardless of where the original inspiration for its design came from.
All of these deficiencies have been noted and clearly dealt with.  It will be good in the future to be able to unblouse pants in the field because the new uniform incorporates this into its design with velcro cuffs at the pantleg.  (regardless of if you acknowledge that was an issue or not, it's clear enough troops did seeing as it was listed as a deficiency to fix.)  Or be able to use sleve pockets for a compass or notepad.  Or be able to secure a collar to reduce chaffing on my neck.

It should be noted that there have been some additions to the ACU uniform design that our Canadian designers have incorporated.  Ones that will be helpful.  That this is not just a CADPAT carbon copy.


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## McG (8 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Although multicam is the superior of the two





			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> How so?





			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> You make this statement based on what?





			
				Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Based on the plethora of terrains in which Multicam can stay an effective camo pattern.  Desert, semi-arid, tropical, temperate, boreal etc.  Whereas our CADPAT TW really is best suited to pine forest and the spring/summer seasons in temperate climates.  I use multicam to hunt with and find it far more effective than CADPAT in the fall timeframe because at that time vegetation is dying off and there is far more dry grass, bark and brown tones to stay blended with than the very green CADPAT.
> 
> Even our OD green was better at blending with the dry prarie grass or almost tan grass that much of Canada becomes after the summer passes.
> 
> ...


Multicam attempts the "jack of all, master of none" thing.  There may be somewhere in the world that it is the best, but we would only find ourselves operating in that environment by chance.  We are better served with separate temperate and AR patterns than trying to fit a universal pattern to all theatres & operations ... in fact, the limitations of trying to go with a universal pattern is a weakness of the US ACU.  Arguably, we could have a CADPAT hybrid for theatres of closely mixed environments (or late fall in a temperate deciduous environment) and we should have the ability to rapidly code and then produce uniforms in a CADPAT theatre specific (so everyone after roto 0 has a more optimal uniform).


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## Jungle (8 Jul 2011)

The US Army did not switch to Multicam; they adopted Multicam specifically for the Afghan theater of ops, the rest of the US Army is sticking to ACU until the future pattern is decided and adopted.

There are serious considerations by the US Army to adopt the USMC MARPAT, so they would go back to a 2-pattern system, which is in my opinion the best way to go. What we should do is offer more flexibility to mix items in the 2 patterns to adapt to each situation.


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## dapaterson (8 Jul 2011)

Jungle said:
			
		

> What we should do is offer more flexibility to mix items in the 2 patterns to adapt to each situation.



And somewhere, an RSM has suddenly dveloped a splitting headache, with tremors and a deep sense of fear.


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## Pusser (8 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> Based on the plethora of terrains in which Multicam can stay an effective camo pattern.  Desert, semi-arid, tropical, temperate, boreal etc.  Whereas our CADPAT TW really is best suited to pine forest and the spring/summer seasons in temperate climates.  I use multicam to hunt with and find it far more effective than CADPAT in the fall timeframe because at that time vegetation is dying off and there is far more dry grass, bark and brown tones to stay blended with than the very green CADPAT.
> 
> Even our OD green was better at blending with the dry prarie grass or almost tan grass that much of Canada becomes after the summer passes.
> 
> ...



Interestingly, you present the same basic argument that kept us in OD as long as we were.  For the most part, starting in the 1970s, many nations switched to dispersed pattern camouflage clothing, readily acknowledged to provide better concealment.  When the question was raised in Canada as to why we did not, the official answer was that dispersed patterns were only effective in select environments and we could not afford to have separate sets of combat clothing for use in all the different environments in which we expected to operate.  In fact, testing showed that the plain OD we used was the best compromise.  This was a logical argument right up until the point where we became the only Army in the world that had a dispersed pattern jacket for use in garrison, but continued to use a plain pattern for use in the field. :facepalm:

I tend to agree with the argument that one needs different patterns for different environments.  Compromise solutions that try to satisfy all requirements are rarely fully successful.

As for the development of combat clothing, I would argue that it has indeed been an evolutionary process and that even today there are elements that still exist that find their roots in many generations past, hence pockets originally designed for use with a weapon that has been out of service for over 25 years...


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## dapaterson (8 Jul 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> As for the development of combat clothing, I would argue that it has indeed been an evolutionary process and that even today there are elements that still exist that find their roots in many generations past, hence pockets originally designed for use with a weapon that has been out of service for over 25 years...



The last of the FNs were retired only in '90-'91 (less those with e .22 inserts, which kept going well beyond), so we're not quite up to 25 years...

(Or, in other words, I'm not THAT old!)


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## Michael OLeary (8 Jul 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> As for the development of combat clothing, I would argue that it has indeed been an evolutionary process and that even today there are elements that still exist that find their roots in many generations past, hence pockets originally designed for use with a weapon that has been out of service for over 25 years...



Interestingly, there was an interim combat shirt design that had flat pockets, and the lower pockets removed. The upper pockets were changed because of the very reason you stated, and the lower ones because it was assumed a soldier would never need them with the use of webbing/tac vest. It was pretty much universally despised. While our current breast pocket was designed to fit an FN magazine, apparently they also work quite well for cigarette packages, cell phones, and any other miscellaneous things people put in them, all without distorting the look of the shirt. Notably, that interim shirt design never went into general issue.

Of course, we could see a nicely tailored combat shirt and, when soldiers don't have webbing pouches to put thing in and Sergeants Major don't want to see flat shirt pockets distorted by cigarette packages and things, soldiers can always go back to hiding those things inside the loose blousing of their pants (although that's before my time) .... oh, wait, we're trashing that concept here too.

As with many problems, there are many simple solutions which will not satisfy all customers.


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## OldSolduer (8 Jul 2011)

I do remember those god awful combat shirts they tried to give us. I was told to go over and exchange old style for the "new" ones. I didn't outright say no, but I delayed long enough to see the recall of those "gara trooper" shirts.

The way I see thing is that we have the disruptive pattern we have now because our PRIMARY mission is to defend Canada. Think about that.

We have Arid kit because we happened to need it.


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## Bzzliteyr (8 Jul 2011)

Jim, those were the Mk3 combat shirt if I recall.  I had them issued to me when I joined the reserves in 92.

Hey, I've got an idea.. we could have a dress that we wear in garrison, we could call it "garrison dress".  And then we can wear our combats for the field?


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## PMedMoe (8 Jul 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Hey, I've got an idea.. we could have a dress that we wear in garrison, we could call it "garrison dress".  And then we can wear our combats for the field?



Bite your tongue!      

I had one of those shirts when I went to Germany.  I wore it tucked in until I was told not to.  So I wore it untucked until the Base SM saw me and told me to tuck it in.  It looked like a maternity top.   :


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Jul 2011)

Looks like the air softers beat our 'designers' to it  ;D


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## Jarnhamar (8 Jul 2011)

Love the collar.

Once they reach the first units I'm gonna hop on Ebay to pick some up.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Jul 2011)

...........or maybe the Cadets Cadetpat...........except for the collar


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## vonGarvin (8 Jul 2011)

That cadet pattern looks like the same cut uniform I'm wearing, but the cam pattern looks more like MARPAT than CADPAT.


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## DirtyDog (8 Jul 2011)

Wolf117 said:
			
		

> I use multicam to hunt with and find it far more effective than CADPAT in the fall timeframe....


So you've hunted in CADPAT (as a comparison)?

How do you accurately guage the effectiveness of camoflauge while hunting anyway?  

I'm no camo expert, but isn't there reasons (such as the difference between human and animal eyesight)  why most hunting apparel hasn't switched over to digital patterns, or even military patterns, in general?

I will however agree that multicam is a excellent pattern for the terrain of Southern Afghanistan.  Often I wished I had more TW or multicam (I generally had samplings of both and AR) to help break up my visual signature anytime I was in and around vegetation.


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## PuckChaser (8 Jul 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Love the collar.
> 
> Once they reach the first units I'm gonna hop on Ebay to pick some up.



Sadly, that'll probably be the fastest way to get them. Maybe they should release them to the Clothing Online program? Something else to spend points on.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Jul 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> That cadet pattern looks like the same cut uniform I'm wearing, but the cam pattern looks more like MARPAT than CADPAT.



Sure I try  :stirpot: and you get all truthful and technical. Sheesh :


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## daftandbarmy (8 Jul 2011)

Invisible Inc: just when you thought that Cad Pat or Multicam were the cat's cammy jammies. Like it that this guy is in Maple Ridge. Go (hide the world) Canada! :

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/invisible-inc/8523/1/


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## ballz (8 Jul 2011)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> How do you accurately guage the effectiveness of camoflauge while hunting anyway?
> 
> I'm no camo expert, but isn't there reasons (such as the difference between human and animal eyesight)  why most hunting apparel hasn't switched over to digital patterns, or even military patterns, in general?



I was wondering the same thing about how to guage the effectiveness while hunting.

On another note, I read that there's evidence that the deer family in general can only see a different part of the colour spectrum altogether, which is why orange and red colours won't effect it. However they can see more colours that are not visible to humans out past the purples and whatnot. Anyway, the point was, you can wear all the camo you want, if you washed with the wrong laundry detergent you'd basically look like a big funkin glowstick walking around in the woods. ;D


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## Michael OLeary (8 Jul 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I was wondering the same thing about how to gauge the effectiveness while hunting?



The two critical factors for the marketing of commercial camouflage patterns for hunting are:

a. Look Cool factor (LCF), and 
b. Brand name.

Those are what opens wallets, because the deer never get a vote.


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## Sigger (11 Jul 2011)

I found this:
http://soldiersystems.net/2011/07/08/canadian-forces-improved-combat-uniform/


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## Jungle (11 Jul 2011)

Not only are we changing uniform pattern, we are also changing some aspects of our drill; the new position of Attention will be as follows:







This will help convince the enemy that we have very strong core muscles, and that we are kept unbalanced at all times so they will not be able to affect us.

We will also go back to doing drill during firefights, to show the enemy that we are good in all aspects of Soldiering (unlike the taliban, who cannot do a proper present arms, let alone under fire)
The pic shows unbloused pants, but this will not be tolerated outside your own home for the next 20 years or so... This is much like the polar fleece jacket, which is authorized wear as an outer garment by CANLANDGEN, except in Wainwright where apparently the fleece jacket replaced the wool shirt which was not an outer garment.

Did somebody think about a hybrid shirt to go with the new ICU ?


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jul 2011)

Troopasaurus said:
			
		

> Just open it tactically...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSK3maq8Cyk



Brilliant.

Not surprised the topic of boot blousing came up before the end of page 1.


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## SoldierInAYear (2 Aug 2011)

Edit to remove article from David ********.


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## Jimmy_D (3 Aug 2011)

Not trying to bring back the whole debate on the boot band thing, 

But, 

With your pants being bloused it will do the following:

1. Keep your legs drier when going through low water levels, there for keeping your motivation up ( better to have dry legs and wet feet then be completely soaked)

2. With the black boot design, it does look more professional, especially in garrison with someone with real nicely shawn up boots.

3. When in the field, it keeps the insects ( mosiquitos, flees, tick, mites, and god knows what else ) from bitting your legs, which causes irratation, pain, and suffering, which lowers a soldiers morale, not to mention a soldier paying more attention to his or her legs is a less effective soldier.

I will also say, when i was in Afghanistan i did have my pants unbloused, when i had them unbloused during my driving stint it was great because it gets damn hot in the vehicle when your stuck in it not able to get out like the dismounts. But when dismounted then you have the chance of bug bites and everything else that can crawl up your leg, so i did my best to keep them bloused when dismounted.

And for anyone who has their pants ride up on them when there in a vehicle. Its one of 2 things:

1. You put too much of your pants in the blousing, or.

2. You need longer pants.

Just my  :2c:


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## Rheostatic (3 Aug 2011)

Black is no more "professional" than brown, no matter what Shawn says.


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## Jimmy_D (3 Aug 2011)

True but i am emplying on how much better a pair of shinny black boots are when they are bloused compaired to when they are not.


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## rmc_wannabe (3 Aug 2011)

So I have to ask this question. The front of the shirt, instead of buttons there is velcro or will there be a zipper employed? I can see a lot of Fabio (Flabbio in some cases ;D ) moments and a huge PITA situation working out in the field if it is the latter.

IRT the blousing issue/garrison issue, who honestly cares what the uniform design is? There are (C,S,B)SMs and (Area, Base, Bde,TF) RSMs employed for a reason. There will always be a standard enforced that a portion of the troops will complain about. The truth is there has to be a line drawn somewhere so we look like a professional fighting force and not like an African militia where anything goes.

As per the photo:







;D


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## Hurricane (3 Aug 2011)

I assume where it says that unbloused is an "option" that it will be on the discretion of the CSM probably only in "Field" environment. Just as Swats are.


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## Teflon (3 Aug 2011)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> So I have to ask this question. The front of the shirt, instead of buttons there is velcro or will there be a zipper employed? I can see a lot of Fabio (Flabbio in some cases ;D ) moments and a huge PITA situation working out in the field if it is the latter.
> 
> IRT the blousing issue/garrison issue, who honestly cares what the uniform design is? There are (C,S,B)SMs and (Area, Base, Bde,TF) RSMs employed for a reason. There will always be a standard enforced that a portion of the troops will complain about. The truth is there has to be a line drawn somewhere so we look like a professional fighting force and not like an African militia where anything goes.
> 
> ...


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## Matt_Fisher (3 Aug 2011)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Hey, I've got an idea.. we could have a dress that we wear in garrison, we could call it "garrison dress".  And then we can wear our combats for the field?



You may not be that far off from what happens in the future regarding garrison/field training uniform vs. a true combat uniform.

FR fabrics would be used for the 'Combat Uniform', i.e. CF Hybrid Shirt, USMC FROG Uniform, or US Army FR ACUs/Army Combat Shirt, etc.  
Shirt would be the 'Hybrid' type design with a knit torso, and woven collar, shoulders, and sleeves, with sleeve pockets and Velcro patches on them.  Collar would be a mandarin stand-up type design, and the sleeves would have the ability to have foam pads put into the reinforcement area of the elbows.
Trousers would be a woven FR fabric, with the ability to have knee pads directly integrated.
This uniform could also do double duty for wildland firefighting duty if required.

Stock would be held at the CF Supply Depots and only issued out for ops as needed due to the higher cost. 

For day to day garrison use, field training, and operations where PPE isn't required due to the permissive environment (i.e. Haiti disaster response, Manitoba Floods, etc.) there would be  'G/F' Dress (Garrison/Field) which would essentially be the Improved Combat Uniform.

I personally am not a fan of the ACU style shirt (the breast pockets are next to useless), but would have preferred a Brit Combat 95 style shirt with sleeve pockets, and Velcro instead of buttons, but the improvements to the trousers look decent.


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## angry1234 (20 Sep 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And wind pants rain gear etc should never be bloused. Agreed.
> 
> And cleanliness and looking neat is a garrison norm. I think we all know that. I, for one, will not stand for troops looking slovenly in garrison when they have the facilities and time to look their best.
> 
> ...



You f****** loser!! who cares bloused or not bloused......our military needs to get into the 21st century when it comes to alot of differnet things. One being that there is a plethora of information, advice and so on which come from people who are not MWO and so on. I realize you probably have 11 tours to Bosnia, 4 to Haiti, 10 years in Germany and a Grade 10 education but this does not necessarily make you smart. Our army is tooooo anal....we treat our own like garbage, and this is why the CF has a wicked turnover rate.....because people hate it. 

I am first to admit that I am proud of my Afgh deployment (withheld to protect my identity from the Regieme) and what we accomplished. I also will admit that I absolutely hate this institution and the anal retentiveness that accompanies it. We eat our own without due regard for the interests of troops....unless you are csor or jtf of course because they apparently get treated good compared to the morale of others. 

Go take your drill cane and shove it you know where!!!!!


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## aesop081 (20 Sep 2011)

angry1234 said:
			
		

> You f****** loser!! who cares bloused or not bloused......our military needs to get into the 21st century when it comes to alot of differnet things. One being that there is a plethora of information, advice and so on which come from people who are not MWO and so on. I realize you probably have 11 tours to Bosnia, 4 to Haiti, 10 years in Germany and a Grade 10 education but this does not necessarily make you smart. Our army is tooooo anal....we treat our own like garbage, and this is why the CF has a wicked turnover rate.....because people hate it.
> 
> I am first to admit that I am proud of my Afgh deployment (withheld to protect my identity from the Regieme) and what we accomplished. I also will admit that I absolutely hate this institution and the anal retentiveness that accompanies it. We eat our own without due regard for the interests of troops....unless you are csor or jtf of course because they apparently get treated good compared to the morale of others.
> 
> Go take your drill cane and shove it you know where!!!!!



Nice first post. Your release date is tomorrow ?


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## Pusser (20 Sep 2011)

angry1234 said:
			
		

> You f****** loser!! who cares bloused or not bloused......our military needs to get into the 21st century when it comes to alot of differnet things. One being that there is a plethora of information, advice and so on which come from people who are not MWO and so on. I realize you probably have 11 tours to Bosnia, 4 to Haiti, 10 years in Germany and a Grade 10 education but this does not necessarily make you smart. Our army is tooooo anal....we treat our own like garbage, and this is why the CF has a wicked turnover rate.....because people hate it.
> 
> I am first to admit that I am proud of my Afgh deployment (withheld to protect my identity from the Regieme) and what we accomplished. I also will admit that I absolutely hate this institution and the anal retentiveness that accompanies it. We eat our own without due regard for the interests of troops....unless you are csor or jtf of course because they apparently get treated good compared to the morale of others.
> 
> Go take your drill cane and shove it you know where!!!!!



Just not feeling the love here...


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## PPCLI Guy (20 Sep 2011)

Ah.  Another satisfied Royal (based on your timezone...)


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## marshall sl (20 Sep 2011)

Got the parts to say that to the man's face?? hmmm I bet not


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## Tow Tripod (20 Sep 2011)

I think buddy might want to join CSOR or JTF.Time for buddy to get out. Personally I would have had a better career with 10 years in Germany instead of two tours to Afghanistan. I mean at least we won the Cold War and the last time I checked the history books it was confirmed. Afghanistan I'm not so sure.Fulda Gap Secure Over!


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## ouyin2000 (20 Sep 2011)

Wow. Someone certainly hates the Sgt Majs. Got jacked up one too many times for not listening to "the man's" rules?


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## Snaketnk (20 Sep 2011)

Unfortunately, his opionion is shared by a lot of people I know; the majority of the Pte/Cpls I know actually. It has less to do with people being anal and everyone from the rank of sargeant up treating us like children most of the time. Some of the most hardcore "I love the army!" types are VR-ing so they can go work in mines because they're tired of being degraded. There's the feeling that initiative is unwelcome, that questions aren't tolerated, you're ineffective without supervision, and thinking for yourself is a waste of time. It's totally off topic but I agree with him for the most part. We've had sections where 8/10 people have VR'd/not renewed their contracts in the last year or so.

As for the ICU, I'm not a fan of zippers, but we'll see. There's a few features I'm looking forward to, especially the new shoulder design.


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## vonGarvin (20 Sep 2011)

I think we should let the privates and career-corporals run the army, and do what they want to do, when they want.



:rofl:

Sorry, I almost kept a straight face on that one.   I'm trying to rationalise what the calendar date means when people say "it's the 21st Century".  Are people really such relativists?  But, face it, we of us in the army do as we're told, and we try to use a bit of common sense.  Sometimes.


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## Jammer (20 Sep 2011)

Yeah, why not? Most already have an undeserved sense of entitlement already.


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## OldSolduer (20 Sep 2011)

angry1234 said:
			
		

> You f****** loser!! who cares bloused or not bloused......our military needs to get into the 21st century when it comes to alot of differnet things. One being that there is a plethora of information, advice and so on which come from people who are not MWO and so on. I realize you probably have 11 tours to Bosnia, 4 to Haiti, 10 years in Germany and a Grade 10 education but this does not necessarily make you smart. Our army is tooooo anal....we treat our own like garbage, and this is why the CF has a wicked turnover rate.....because people hate it.
> 
> I am first to admit that I am proud of my Afgh deployment (withheld to protect my identity from the Regieme) and what we accomplished. I also will admit that I absolutely hate this institution and the anal retentiveness that accompanies it. We eat our own without due regard for the interests of troops....unless you are csor or jtf of course because they apparently get treated good compared to the morale of others.
> 
> Go take your drill cane and shove it you know where!!!!!



Thank you very much. I guess that maybe you know better about how The Canadian Army should work than I or any of my esteemed colleagues. I will tell you this - I treat my troops like adults and I expect them to act like adults in return - and that includes dress and deportment, which in case YOU forgot is one of the Sergeant Major's duties to attend to. If you don't like it - tough. 
As for the 21st Century crack - I am there and was there in the 20th century. 
You didn't read my post - I expect as the DSM of the Winnipeg Infantry Tactical Group - troops to be properly dressed. In GARRISON - in case you missed it - that means BLOUSING your combat pants.

The crack about education  - hmmmm - Grade 12 with some college courses taken. Not called for. You have NO idea who I am.

Two tours Cyprus, Croatia 93 (Medak) and Bosnia 97 are the only tours I have. 

I am glad that you are proud of your service in Afghanistan. Good for you - standing up to bad people is what we do. I am not one of them.

Taking my drill cane and....well you know....I carry a pace stick now. 

Now take a look at my icon and google the name "Mike Seggie". 

Have a nice day.


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## Spooks (20 Sep 2011)

angry1234 said:
			
		

> You f****** loser!! who cares bloused or not bloused......our military needs to get into the 21st century when it comes to alot of differnet things. One being that there is a plethora of information, advice and so on which come from people who are not MWO and so on. I realize you probably have 11 tours to Bosnia, 4 to Haiti, 10 years in Germany and a Grade 10 education but this does not necessarily make you smart. Our army is tooooo anal....we treat our own like garbage, and this is why the CF has a wicked turnover rate.....because people hate it.
> 
> I am first to admit that I am proud of my Afgh deployment (withheld to protect my identity from the Regieme) and what we accomplished. I also will admit that I absolutely hate this institution and the anal retentiveness that accompanies it. We eat our own without due regard for the interests of troops....unless you are csor or jtf of course because they apparently get treated good compared to the morale of others.
> 
> Go take your drill cane and shove it you know where!!!!!



Wow...

[sarcastic rant]

Yeah, Dress + Deportment sucks, but it instills discipline. By this whiney tone, perhaps we should all have optional shaving too. Since this is the 21st century, as you so aptly pointed out, we are a multi-cultural world. Therefore, let us bring in the 1st Canadian Foreign Legion (1CFL). Since we treat our own like garbage, and you obviously know the problems with the C7 and C9, perhaps you should move that we should allow all members a $3000 allowance to purchase whatever weapon we want too so you can buy the P90 w/ red dot sight that you use in MW2.

Ever thought that the reason we have 'a high turnover rate' is b/c that is the nature of the army? We have young lads watch Black Hawk Down, go 'that's so cool!' and join. Then they find out that most of their time is spent standing in a dug-out hole, freezing their arse off in the arctic on a SovOp, getting chronic gastro problems from eating at a DFAC overseas, or so on. They realise the army isn't all the door-kicking glory they thought it would be. Even those high-speed troops in the JTF and CSOR still need to be shaven and have bloused boots when their enter their base proper rather than be in their areas. Funny how I do not read them complaining. If there wasn't a high turnover rate, then Corporal would be a competitive rank and with the attitude you have displayed, PLQ wouldn't even be considered an option for you.

It is very unwise to knock someone else's deployment history in the military. Assuming what a member on this board has for experience followed with mocking said assumption is dangerous and genuinely immature. How will you feel in 25yrs if a young troop comes up to you explaining how his single tour of Iran 2035 was so much better and exponentially difficult compared to your deployment to the Gan when in fact you know all that was done was him staying in Canada controlling a robot-soldier. You may have spent a few weeks in Panjwai or Maywand 'clearing out badguys' where troops in WW1 spent months gainining a few hundred meters of the line only to lose it the day after. Should I expect to hear how much more efficient you and your unit was versus the troops from WW1? Perhaps the army back then should have got with the 20th century and used plastic eyelets on their webbing instead of 'wasting time' to polish the brass ones.

If you and all your pride believe that our army is too anal, that we treat our own like garbage, that we eat our own, or that it is proper for a troop with hurt eFeelings to tell someone online to take a drill cane and shove it; if you think so poorly of the institution that pays you, then I might suggest you leave and get out. We don't need you in the army and I am embarrassed to know that such a spoiled, whiney brat made it through battle school. What you have illustrated is that you clearly want to be a long-hair, dope-smoking hippie and people like Mr Seggie have given you the right to express that freedom. By all means, take it. 

[/sarcastic rant]


----------



## McG (20 Sep 2011)

I think the message has been sent.  It is time to leave that little rant behind in this discussion, and to get back on topic.

Cheers, 
The Staff.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Sep 2011)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, his opionion is shared by a lot of people I know; the majority of the Pte/Cpls I know actually. It has less to do with people being anal and everyone from the rank of sargeant up treating us like children most of the time. Some of the most hardcore "I love the army!" types are VR-ing so they can go work in mines because they're tired of being degraded. There's the feeling that initiative is unwelcome, that questions aren't tolerated, you're ineffective without supervision, and thinking for yourself is a waste of time. It's totally off topic but I agree with him for the most part. We've had sections where 8/10 people have VR'd/not renewed their contracts in the last year or so.
> 
> As for the ICU, I'm not a fan of zippers, but we'll see. There's a few features I'm looking forward to, especially the new shoulder design.



Funny thing about that; in a years time many of them are walking back in the front gate in uniform as they found out that life isn't so great working for some civvie.  "Today you are a labourer who will train the  Boss' son.  Tomorrow you are subordinate to the Boss' son."  If you really think things are bad in the military, try a civvie job.  Even if you work for many of the Chain Franchises out there, you are often working for someone right out of High School with absolutely no life experience.  But hey; the CF sucks....Right?

So many have written on this site about their leaving the CF and missing the camaraderie.  I have seen many leave, only to return as the "Grass really wasn't greener on the other side".  

Remember: Never burn your bridges.  You may have to cross them again.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Sep 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> I think the message has been sent.  It is time to leave that little rant behind in this discussion, and to get back on topic.
> 
> Cheers,
> The Staff.



If I in any way have offended anyone, or gone off tangent, I apolgize.


----------



## Spooks (20 Sep 2011)

[on topic]

Based on the ppt slideshow, it mentions the built-in kneepads. A ponder about this: you use the foam-insert pads and go really hard on your knee. Now you tear the knee of your pants and the CSM will tell you to go fix it at clothing. This should put a huge demand for pants, no? What was so wrong about the external CADPAT kneepads?


----------



## George Wallace (20 Sep 2011)

I think some forgot what the word "uniform" means and why we have one in the military.

As times change, as well as equipment, so do uniforms.  From what I have been hearing, this will take a long time to implement and we will see most wearing CADPAT, even if they are issued one of the new uniforms.  We will, as in the past, have a 'work' uniform for work in Garrison and a 'field' uniform for deploying into the Field/on OPs.


----------



## Sigger (20 Sep 2011)

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> [on topic]
> 
> Based on the ppt slideshow, it mentions the built-in kneepads. A ponder about this: you use the foam-insert pads and go really hard on your knee. Now you tear the knee of your pants and the CSM will tell you to go fix it at clothing. This should put a huge demand for pants, no? What was so wrong about the external CADPAT kneepads?



If they are anything like the built in(insertable) kneepads in my work pants, they are garbage. I have in fact tore a knee out of a pair of pants($160) using them. Not only that, but they rarely stay in the correct position to prevent knee from abruptly landing into gravel.


----------



## Danjanou (20 Sep 2011)

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> ..... Therefore, let us bring in the 1st Canadian Foreign Legion (1CFL). Since we treat our own like garbage....



Naah I don't think our angry young troopie would like the way the _Légion étrangère_ enforces their particular dress code. Their NCO's prefer pick axe handles to drill canes for obvious reasons.  At least from what I remember back when I was securing the Fulda Gap in my bloused pants.  8)


----------



## jollyjacktar (20 Sep 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Naah I don't think our angry young troopie would like the way the _Légion étrangère_ enforces their particular dress code. Their NCO's prefer pick axe handles to drill canes for obvious reasons.  At least from what I remember back when I was securing the Fulda Gap in my bloused pants.  8)



I once worked with a guy who did 5 years in Dijbouti with 2 REP in the 60's-70's.   A few examples of discipline metted out made my eyes bug out...


----------



## Danjanou (20 Sep 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I once worked with a guy who did 5 years in Dijbouti with 2 REP in the 60's-70's.   A few examples of discipline metted out made my eyes bug out...



Yup and it apears they blouse their pants too.  8)


----------



## jollyjacktar (20 Sep 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yup and it apears they blouse their pants too.  8)



But, yeesh check out those boot laces


----------



## Lerch (20 Sep 2011)

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> [on topic]
> 
> Based on the ppt slideshow, it mentions the built-in kneepads. A ponder about this: you use the foam-insert pads and go really hard on your knee. Now you tear the knee of your pants and the CSM will tell you to go fix it at clothing. This should put a huge demand for pants, no? What was so wrong about the external CADPAT kneepads?



I can't see the knee inserts being used too much by pers in the field, more likely in garrison by vehicle techs or anybody that takes a knee to get their job done.


----------



## Tow Tripod (20 Sep 2011)

I would gladly take a knee to get posted out of Wainwright and back to a Unit!!


----------



## rmc_wannabe (20 Sep 2011)

Lerch said:
			
		

> I can't see the knee inserts being used too much by pers in the field, more likely in garrison by vehicle techs or *anybody that takes a knee to get their job done.*



Maybe because its 3 am here, but I definitely had to try really hard to stay in context at that last part ;D . Standard issue promotion pads seem to come to mind :rofl:


----------



## Lerch (20 Sep 2011)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Maybe because its 3 am here, but I definitely had to try really hard to stay in context at that last part ;D . Standard issue promotion pads seem to come to mind :rofl:



Don't worry, I spent 10 minutes trying to type that up so you wouldn't take it out of context...there's no way!


----------



## Angry56789 (20 Sep 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Thank you very much. I guess that maybe you know better about how The Canadian Army should work than I or any of my esteemed colleagues. I will tell you this - I treat my troops like adults and I expect them to act like adults in return - and that includes dress and deportment, which in case YOU forgot is one of the Sergeant Major's duties to attend to. If you don't like it - tough.
> As for the 21st Century crack - I am there and was there in the 20th century.
> You didn't read my post - I expect as the DSM of the Winnipeg Infantry Tactical Group - troops to be properly dressed. In GARRISON - in case you missed it - that means BLOUSING your combat pants.
> 
> ...



Jim,

     Before I rant (its may be extensive as I write, apologies for this as well) I am saying now this is a profound apology. What you do with this email is your choice, I am typing this so I sleep better tonight. The fact that you suggested to me to research your son has nothing to do with this message. It is very much a terrible thing for one to lose a family member absolutely and for this I offer my condolences. On my tour I knew 3 people who died as well as a suicide when we got back to Canada. My conduct on itself is the reason why I am writing this message to you with a newly created account. My conduct on itself is why I am ashamed how I am.....I am proud of everyone who I had the honour of working with over there, especially the ones who came back under the power of 6 others.

**(details omitted to protect my identity as well as the identity of my unit....yes I am still in)**

1. Yes I am sure you have determined that I am mad at the institution. I was infact deployed outside of the wire, I am not a robot "controller" as it was suggested about me. I am not a gamer, I think MW2 is junk as a matter of fact and that the only good video game if I were to play one would be a car racing game. I am the namesake Grandson of a WW2 veteran (which is why I am even more ashamed of my action) who was at a certain place I am sure you can figure out on 6June1944, his actions during his tenure resulted in issuance of 7 medals, and to be a local public figure with the Canadian Corps Association and the RC Legion where I am from. I am eternally greatful to this era that I do not speak German.

2. As much as I hate the Regieme, (believe me I want out) I chose to leave my units name out. It is not my right to tarnish history, or the name of an organization which may in fact be a perfect fit for a particular person. Reference your comment about treating your subs like adults and so on.....I wish you were my boss, that does not happen where I work. We get micromanaged like f***, an educated Corporal or a Private may very well pass something useful up the chain to only get belittled.... "Who the f*** are you to tell me my job?" (Says the un-educated _______ with 92 deployments and 17 divorces).....I also want to make note that I know and realize that there are guys out there who do not require college to be smart so to speak.....but where I work supervisors use their years in, number of medals to justify stupidity.....I am victim of such stupidity because I am on a TCAT for a stupid decision that someone else made, and I require surgery now. My life is on hold for probably 9 months.....I wanted out to become a police officer where I am from. After my surgery I may not be able to do the police testing....all because of one persons poor choice in issuance of an instruction that I had to carry out because technically it was not unlawful command...... and his 6 deployments, 19 years in, and 2 trades during his career trumped my outburst of common sense. In all honesty I even had a higher ranking NCO type of a person (omitted for my opsec) tell me he did not care that my Father was sick and I was trying to get a compassionate posting closer to home so I could help him with household chores....for me, that is the straw that broke the camels back. I even resigned myself to get a deployment to AFgh with the hopes that my mood would settle.....for my first year of my current posting I was a marked man based on vexatious lies and I hoped that my performance overseas would negate this, it didn't.

3. I know for a fact I am not a super soldier or a symbol of perfection. I had my little outburst directed at you because from what I gathered about you, you are a person of the very authority who has screwed me over so much.....and there you go. You did not cause my TCAT, you did not display sheer ignorance toward my family issues years ago, and you are not the one who wears your ass for a hat like how people do in my world. 

4. Its pretty bad when instead of approaching my own CoC I rant on here, and put myself to a situation where I can potentially get into a huge bit of trouble regardless because of my outburst; but this is in fact the state of my unit. There are guys like me, and guys who get in trouble for being politely honest. I try my hardest to shelve my feelings when I go to work...because for now this is how I pay my bills. Sometimes it is so god damn hard going to a place where people at my level are smart enough to figure out (its not hard) that our bosses don't care, blatently come up with b.s. taskings to fill time without any effort at all to make said tasking useful.....or better yet, not even putting in the effort to come up with a b.s. tasking and having soldiers sitting around wondering why they joined and the mistake that they made. There was another user on the thread who replied to my comments who said something to the effect that...it is a sad state, but there are many Cpls and PTe's across the country who feel this way and who have fallen victim to idiot supervisors. That particular forum user is not far from the truth. People are afraid to speak up more for fear of retribution or career implications. 

I joined as a short term solution. My hometown is hugely lacking jobs at the moment with a majority of mfg sectors going for a dive when things went stale in 2005, and I was fed up with my 2 College diplomas earning me maybe $12/hr if I was lucky. Perhaps I should have picked a different trade, I don't know anymore. All I know is I need to start being honest with myself.

I would like to apologize for my rant on the forum. You did not cause me my hardship, and I am confident you would forget about the rank on your chest and go at it as if it is a Jim and *(opsec)* conversation if I were to approach you in person. I do not feel I can accomplish this with my CoC. I also want to say sorry for the lack of details and so on. At the end of the day I want to protect my own identity, my unit's identity, and the future soldiers who may pick my trade. That is not my right, and I do not want to deface the history of my unit. No further offence to you, I approached someone who I thought I could trust concerning the issue of my Father, and I was in turn branded as a s****ump....so I do not really trust too many people aside from my immediate family and my Wife. So for this, you will never find out who I am, or where I work....it does have to be this way. The CF is small in the sense that everybody knows somebody somewhere else. What is left of my career I would like to be intact, for when it comes time to try to tell them I want out, I want time off for police testing, and I want references.

I am sorry for offending you how I did, I had to write this message to you out of the interest of my own mental health, and to save what little face I have left. 

~ Cpl Anonomous the Pawn


----------



## Angry56789 (20 Sep 2011)

As for the uniforms, I hope the mfg remembers to sew the pockets properly so that they open. I remember when I was in the reserves and we first got cadpat, I had to take a knife to cut some stitching so my pockets would open....I believe we do this on civvy suits.


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## Teeps74 (20 Sep 2011)

I can not believe that I have been in long enough to see three iterations of combat uniforms... Crap, next I will be reading birth dates of my recruits from the same year I was sworn in.

Built in knee pads? I will be a believer when I try them and they work... In an OBUA setting, I always preferred hardened knee pads, as I am a clumsy sod who always smashes his knees against corners, benches, chairs, cars and the occasional house... It hurts like hell, and they now get stiff when a cold rain is coming.

As for the rest of it, the uniform is looking entirely too American for my likes. I love my cousins to the south dearly, but I value my identity as a Canadian. I like that our uniforms are different, it gives us something different to gripe about when we get together.


----------



## Angry56789 (22 Sep 2011)

I was just thinking today about it at work....are we changing our boots as how the USMC has theirs?


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## MikeL (22 Sep 2011)

Angry56789 said:
			
		

> I was just thinking today about it at work....are we changing our boots as how the USMC has theirs?



Yes, we are moving away from black combat boots and going to brown.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/aete/temperatecombatboot-bottepourclimattempere-eng.asp

Also, it isn't just the USMC who have moved away from black leather boots in the US.


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## BDTyre (23 Sep 2011)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Yes, we are moving away from black combat boots and going to brown.
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/aete/temperatecombatboot-bottepourclimattempere-eng.asp
> 
> Also, it isn't just the USMC who have moved away from black leather boots in the US.



The Army's used the desert style boot for quite some time. They do have a lined/gore-tex version for cooler climates. We had a bunch of National Guard from WA on ex with us in Shilo in the spring and they weren't too happy with their non-insulated ones.

Interesting to note that the standard boot for the new Navy uniform (the dark-blue/grey BDU-style) is a black leather boot....even in KAF.


----------



## dimsum (23 Sep 2011)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Interesting to note that the standard boot for the new Navy uniform (the dark-blue/grey BDU-style) is a black leather boot....even in KAF.



Interesting.  When I was there last year, all USN personnel wore the older desert combats and tan boots.  Talk about sticking out like a sore thumb now.


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## Muttenthaler (23 Sep 2011)

The CadPat boot project was canned. It was tested in Petawawa for a few months, apparently, no one liked them.


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## OldSolduer (23 Sep 2011)

Muttenthaler said:
			
		

> The CadPat boot project was canned. It was tested in Petawawa for a few months, apparently, no one liked them.



I saw them and they were utterly horrible to look at. And unneccessary.


----------



## MikeL (23 Sep 2011)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> The Army's used the desert style boot for quite some time. They do have a lined/gore-tex version for cooler climates. We had a bunch of National Guard from WA on ex with us in Shilo in the spring and they weren't too happy with their non-insulated ones.
> 
> Interesting to note that the standard boot for the new Navy uniform (the dark-blue/grey BDU-style) is a black leather boot....even in KAF.



Yea the Army has used tan boots since ACUs replaced BDUs.  

Also,  USN pers wear MARPAT uniforms with brown boots when attached to Marine units.  And USN pers attached to US Army units(ie PRTs) in Afghanistan wear the Multicam/OEF-P uniform with tan boots.



			
				Muttenthaler said:
			
		

> The CadPat boot project was canned. It was tested in Petawawa for a few months, apparently, no one liked them.



I wouldn't say no one liked them.  Dude at Clothing Stores was saying how they were the best boots he's worn, and I've seen a couple guys still wearing them even though a CANFORGEN(or another message) came out saying CADPAT boots are not to be worn anymore.


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## jollyjacktar (23 Sep 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I saw them and they were utterly horrible to look at. And unneccessary.



I saw them too in Val.  I imagine the hours of effort an old warhorse such as yourself would have to invest in polishing each and every small square the different colour would be unimaginable.... >  Seriously though, they did take some getting used to and did make my eyes go gaga somewhat.  I wonder how effective they would be in the field.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Sep 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I saw them too in Val.  I imagine the hours of effort an old warhorse such as yourself would have to invest in polishing each and every small square the different colour would be unimaginable.... >  Seriously though, they did take some getting used to and did make my eyes go gaga somewhat.  I wonder how effective they would be in the field.



Probably about the same as a black, brown, hot pink or any other boot that's been in the boonies for more than a day.

Damn it would have been difficult polishing those buggers!!


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## Danjanou (23 Sep 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Probably about the same as a black, brown, hot pink or any other boot that's been in the boonies for more than a day.
> 
> Damn it would have been difficult polishing those buggers!!



You mean the CANEX doesn't stock kiwi cadpat polish?


----------



## Teflon (23 Sep 2011)

Yup - it's called "clear" polish  ;D


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## OldSolduer (23 Sep 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> You mean the CANEX doesn't stock kiwi cadpat polish?



No....of all things!! Hot pink combat boots would have made as much sense....


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## Muttenthaler (23 Sep 2011)

I'll stick to my MARK III for as long as they're in service. They're not heavy and warm like the cumbersome GORTEX boots...and you don't slide on ice. I might take 30 seconds longer to lace them up, but I can walk and run faster and farther in them, especially when they're wet.


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## Teeps74 (24 Sep 2011)

Muttenthaler said:
			
		

> I'll stick to my MARK III for as long as they're in service. They're not heavy and warm like the cumbersome GORTEX boots...and you don't slide on ice. I might take 30 seconds longer to lace them up, but I can walk and run faster and farther in them, especially when they're wet.



The BIGGEST single mistake of my career... Turning in my Mk IIIs for the new GP. Dear god.

Caveat. Not everyone will be happy with everything. It is impossible. With boots, more so, as our feet are entirely too different. I know many people who love the new GPs.


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## Mojo Magnum (24 Sep 2011)

I certainly must have time on my hands because I read four pages of this thread on boot bands when all i wanted was a picture of the new combats.  I always understood the purpose of boot bands and blousing to be the WW2 response to a soldiers "fight or flight" response.  When the bowells let go it doesn't go in your boots etc.  Gross I know but, that is the real reason we "blouse" the pants and rock those fassionable boot bands. 

So, picture of the new "ish" combats anyone?


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Sep 2011)

Mojo Magnum said:
			
		

> I certainly must have time on my hands because I read four pages of this thread on boot bands when all i wanted was a picture of the new combats.  I always understood the purpose of boot bands and blousing to be the WW2 response to a soldiers "fight or flight" response.  When the bowells let go it doesn't go in your boots etc.  Gross I know but,  that is the real reason we "blouse" the pants and rock those fassionable boot bands.  So, picture of the new "ish" combats anyone?



That's a pretty definitive statement. You're going to need some pretty solid references to back up that little tidbit if you want people to take it seriously. Just because you say it is, doesn't make it so.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Pusser (24 Sep 2011)

Mojo Magnum said:
			
		

> I certainly must have time on my hands because I read four pages of this thread on boot bands when all i wanted was a picture of the new combats.  I always understood the purpose of boot bands and blousing to be the WW2 response to a soldiers "fight or flight" response.  When the bowells let go it doesn't go in your boots etc.  *Gross I know but, that is the real reason we "blouse" the pants* and rock those fassionable boot bands.



I'd love to see the reference for that.  Methinks someone's pulling your leg on that one.  It has more to do with keeping your trouser leg out of the mud and preventing crawly friends going up your leg.


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## Jungle (24 Sep 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It has more to do with keeping your trouser leg out of the mud and preventing crawly friends going up your leg.



Yes, but the sleeve that is inside the pant leg, that you are supposed to put inside the boot, does that even if the pants are unbloused...

I don't believe the WWII crap story either, but somebody must be able to come up with the real reason behind the blousing.


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## ballz (24 Sep 2011)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Yes, but the sleeve that is inside the pant leg, that you are supposed to put inside the boot, does that even if the pants are unbloused...
> 
> I don't believe the WWII crap story either, but somebody must be able to come up with the real reason behind the blousing.



Either in this thread or another thread, after much debate between "bloused vs unbloused" people, we came up with it.

It used to have something to do with using puttees, which had a functional purpose. That created a "look" that was fairly unique to the military. Once we stop using puttees we had wanted to keep that look somehow, so we began to blouse them.

There is no actual functional purpose to it.

EDIT: Ah, from page 2 of this thread:



			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The puttee question: answer is!!
> 
> puttee, also spelled puttie, is the name, adapted from the Hindi patti, bandage (Skr. patta, strip of cloth), for a covering for the lower part of the leg from the ankle to the knee, consisting of a long narrow piece of cloth wound tightly and spirally round the leg, and serving both as a support and protection, worn especially by riders, and taking the place of the leather or cloth gaiter. It was once adopted as part of the uniform of foot and mounted soldiers in several armies, including the United States Army and the armies of the British Commonwealth.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Sep 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Either in this thread or another thread, after much debate between "bloused vs unbloused" people, we came up with it.
> 
> It used to have something to do with using puttees, which had a functional purpose. That created a "look" that was fairly unique to the military. Once we stop using puttees we had wanted to keep that look somehow, so we began to blouse them.
> 
> There is no actual functional purpose to it.



For the same reason that they wore puttees and gaiters back then and outdoor people (hunters) wear gaiters today. It stops your cuffs from dragging and wearing when they get wet and dirty and prevents low level tangle problems while providing some measure of protection from things getting up your leg.

It is not a fashion statement.


----------



## Journeyman (24 Sep 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It is not a fashion statement.


....nor a replacement for Depends


----------



## ballz (24 Sep 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> For the same reason that they wore puttees and gaiters back then and outdoor people (hunters) wear gaiters today. It stops your cuffs from dragging and wearing when they get wet and dirty and prevents low level tangle problems while providing some measure of protection from things getting up your leg.
> 
> It is not a fashion statement.



I disagree, I think it is entirely a fashion statement born out of something that was once functional.

But having been through this entire thing full circle already, for about 4 pages in this thread, I am not getting into it again. It was pretty clear earlier than nobody on either side of the debate is changing their minds.


----------



## Journeyman (24 Sep 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I disagree, I think it is entirely a fashion statement......


Let's see...the subject falls broadly under the heading of military uniforms, dress and deportment.

We have a Sgt-Maj, with extensive military experience, saying "A."
We have an OCdt, obligated to look at his watch when discussing time-in, saying "B."


Hmm.....who to believe, who to believe?   op:



Should anyone wish to come back with the obligatory "oh, oh _ya_," I admit right now that I don't particularly care, one way or the other. In garrison they're bloused; in the field, it depends.


----------



## vonGarvin (24 Sep 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Should anyone wish to come back with the obligatory "oh, oh _ya_," I admit right now that I don't particularly care, one way or the other. In garrison they're bloused; in the field, it *depends*.



I thought you said this:



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> ....nor a replacement for Depends



 >


----------



## Journeyman (24 Sep 2011)

:facepalm:

OK, you win that one.........bitch


----------



## ballz (24 Sep 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Let's see...the subject falls broadly under the heading of military uniforms, dress and deportment.
> 
> We have a Sgt-Maj, with extensive military experience, saying "A."
> We have an OCdt, obligated to look at his watch when discussing time-in, saying "B."
> ...



I don't know why I'm answering to your arrogance but what can I say, I'm a sucker.

I'm not complaining about blousing them in garrison... but that right there says it's a fashion statement. When you're more concerned about how it looks in garrison, but don't care in the field, that shows right there that it's more about fashion than function.

As for the Sgt-Major thing, not all Sgt-Majors agree. Some want them bloused in the field, some don't care. Which only further serves what I just said.


----------



## Jungle (24 Sep 2011)

I'm not sure I have "extensive" experience as a Sgt-Maj... "depends" how one defines extensive.

Anyway, if the effectiveness of the Troops "depends" on the blousing, then I'm all for it. But it doesn't...

It's good to see the new pants will have a provision to be worn unbloused, but I am not sure it will even be optional at the beginning; "depends" how the dinosaurs react to the change.

... now I have to go to the bathroom...


----------



## Tow Tripod (24 Sep 2011)

I missed something about these uniforms? When is the start of the delivery date?


----------



## Journeyman (24 Sep 2011)

And again, I'd like to repeat the key _personal_ point of my post -- "I don't particularly care..."

If anyone feels a need to use _any_ of my words to justify their argument, well giddy-up.


----------



## BDTyre (26 Sep 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Interesting.  When I was there last year, all USN personnel wore the older desert combats and tan boots.  Talk about sticking out like a sore thumb now.



Most of them did too when I was there, but there was a group of them (not sure who they were/what they were tasked with) wearing the new Navy Working Uniform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy#Navy_Working_Uniform). Not only did they stick out like a sore thumb in KAF, the uniform also provides excellent cam and concealment in the ocean should they go overboard.  ;D


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (26 Sep 2011)

I know this is derailing a bit, but I get a little tired of hearing that line about camo overboard, and why camo on ships.  If you read up about the uniform, and the research they specify why they went with a camo, and its not so the Navy will look like sniperninjas.


----------



## McG (26 Sep 2011)

Muttenthaler said:
			
		

> The CadPat boot project was canned. It was tested in Petawawa for a few months, apparently, no one liked them.


No.  The project lives on.  However, several months ago the decision was made that the project would instead deliver a brown boot.

You might try some investigating here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/450.0.html


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (26 Sep 2011)

You're in essence agreeing with him.

He didn't say the Mk IV boot was cancelled but that CADPAT boot was cancelled, which you yourself just agreed with.

Does anyone have any news on if the boot will have more then one manufacturer or what manufacturer?  Are we stuck with pouliot/boulet and that P.O.S  :facepalm:


----------



## Pusser (26 Sep 2011)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> I know this is derailing a bit, but I get a little tired of hearing that line about camo overboard, and why camo on ships.  If you read up about the uniform, and the research they specify why they went with a camo, and its not so the Navy will look like sniperninjas.



I understand all the reasoning behind it.  And I should point out that the USN specifically claims that it is NOT camo (so perhaps "dispersed pattern " would be a better description).  However, all the reasoning in the world does not prevent this stuff looking ridiculous - meaning the RCN should be adopting it soon ;D.


----------



## McG (26 Sep 2011)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> He didn't say the Mk IV boot was cancelled but that CADPAT boot was cancelled, ...


He said the project was cancelled.  That is not true.  If the project were cancelled, there would be no new boot coming.
There is a new boot in the pipes because the project was not cancelled.

You will note that he did use the word "project" and that word means something.  Had he omitted that word, he would have been correct.  However, he used the word and in so doing he posted misinformation.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (26 Sep 2011)

Again I disagree.

he specified cadpat boot project.  not GP replacement or MK 4. 

You won't agree with me, and I won't change my mind about you being wrong.

So we can just let it go, and move on to getting back on topic about the new uniforms.

Are we sticking with Cadpat or going multicam like USA and UK?


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Sep 2011)

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Again I disagree.
> 
> he specified cadpat boot project.  not GP replacement or MK 4.
> 
> ...



No need to take that tone, Biggoals2bdone.

Unless you are a SME on the project, it's best to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to speak like you have above, and prove it.

For those who know, and MCG is one of those who know, CTS - TCB 000433 is a project, and it is still active and pursuing a temperate combat boot.  The fact that colour at one point was being considered as CADPAT, well...that's history as MCG pointed out, but the PROJECT (TCB 000433) moves onwards.  There has never been a "CADPAT" boot project, only a Temperate Combat Boot project (along with other boots such as "wet weather", "CBRN overboot", etc...)  linked to the larger Clothe The Soldier (CTS) project or other types of boots (e.g. "cold, wet weather") within CTS itself.

Regards
G2G
(Milnet.ca Staff for Biggoal's freebie warning)


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (26 Sep 2011)

I know the "old guard" will all hop to defend this one, and chastise me if you must.

but THIS (up above) is what turns people off from this site.

from a project point of view no it was never cancelled.  So yes as someone who's on board with the project you would word it that way, but to some avg guy, aka layman's point of view, saying the cadpat boot was scrapped and they are going with a brown one, or rather instead of cadpat for the next generation combat boot they are going with brown...makes PERFECT sense >>> regular avg soldiers get what is being said. 

If you want to get technical I didn't personally like the tone that McG took up with the other fella, so I did what I thought was right and stick up for the guy because I completely understood what he meant...as I am sure many others did.

I did not take any tone whatsoever, I was in fact being adult and saying it was semantics, but we were never going to agree and that we should just move on...instead I am being singled out as an instigator/bad guy, which doesn't make sense because I did no such thing.  Therefore I don't feel the milnet.ca staff had any reason to single me out and be so rude. This just perpetuates the "old boys" club thing that many have mentioned about this site.


----------



## Scott (26 Sep 2011)

MCG's tone? Are you serious? MCG is likely the single most patient and even keel moderators here and, in seven years of my time moderating, I cannot recall one single instance of a complaint against him. I'm astounded you got that from him...but hey, maybe you're the sensitive type.

Wind your neck in and don't fight others battles for them

Scott
Army.ca Staff

By the way, I signed as Staff because I am acting as a mod right now. MCG did not so he was not acting as one, something we put into action a long time ago, in case you missed it. We are allowed to participate in threads like anyone so wind your neck in a bit.

"Old Guard"
BWAAAHAHAHAHA

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## jollyjacktar (26 Sep 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I understand all the reasoning behind it.  And I should point out that the USN specifically claims that it is NOT camo (so perhaps "dispersed pattern " would be a better description).  However, all the reasoning in the world does not prevent this stuff looking ridiculous - meaning the RCN should be adopting it soon ;D.



Once I saw the uniform up close it did not seem so bad and ugly.  It does not clash on ship the way the FF coverall in cadpat does.  That, looks ridiculous..... on ship.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Sep 2011)

Really MrBlue?

You speak about the "old guard" and how it deals with people as being "what turns people off from this site."  I (as a regular member, like anyone else) happen to think that your manner of conduct, however old you are, is something that while not so melodramatic as turning people of the site, is the kind of conduct that makes some threads less informative and enjoyable than others.

You seem to have read far more into MCG's tone, which was factual and provided further references to see more about the boots in question, than did many others:



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> No.  The project lives on.  However, several months ago the decision was made that the project would instead deliver a brown boot.
> 
> You might try some investigating here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/450.0.html



The principle issue over the last several posts was the manner in which you decided to "stick up for the guy."

You came across as arrogant (as well as wrong), then unilaterally stated that all were to "just let it go" and move on to discussing the original issue at hand, the ICUs.



			
				MrBlue said:
			
		

> ...I won't change my mind about you being wrong.
> 
> So we can just let it go, and move on to getting back on topic about the new uniforms...



That you see nothing wrong with how you conducted yourself and that you feel that it's unequivocally all the bad, nasty, old guys ganging up on you...perhaps it's time to have a look in the mirror and see who it may be with the thin skin.


Regards
G2G


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## MikeL (26 Sep 2011)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> Are we sticking with Cadpat or going multicam like USA and UK?



Multicam is only for use in Afghanistan, not 100% sure about the UK though.   But for the US Army, Multicam is not their new official uniform to replace UCP, it is only for Afghanistan.

Also, why would we switch to Multicam?  And if you had bothered to read the other pages here and read the pdf, pictures or any of the links to it you would have seen that we are not switching to Multicam.




			
				Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> I missed something about these uniforms? When is the start of the delivery date?



It's in the powerpoint presentation.  I believe delivery starts sometime during the summer of 2012.


----------



## TN2IC (26 Sep 2011)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Multicam is only for use in Afghanistan, not 100% sure about the UK though.



Same goes for the Brits. DPM's back in the UK.


----------



## vonGarvin (26 Sep 2011)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Same goes for the Brits. DPM's back in the UK.


Not so sure abouit that.   I just attended a NATO working group and the Brit Major, in from the UK, was in multicam.  I'm not sure if they are all going like that, though...

(No, he's not deploying, nor is he on the way back)


----------



## Jungle (26 Sep 2011)

The UK Army is switched to their version of Multicam. They are not going back to DPM.


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## jollyjacktar (26 Sep 2011)

Jungle said:
			
		

> The UK Army is switched to their version of Multicam. They are not going back to DPM.



From what I have seen on the Daily Mail website over the past few months that is true.  Any stories regarding soldiers in the UK have had them in Mulitcam when not in their No. 1's.  I'm sure it makes more sense from a budgetary point of view to have only one pattern to worry about.  I can only imagine how expensive it is for us to have two styles to maintain.


----------



## TN2IC (26 Sep 2011)

That might explain why I got a lot of DPM stuff from my buddy. Go figure. I like the stuff anyways when I play OPFOR or going hunting anyways.


----------



## aesop081 (26 Sep 2011)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> but THIS (up above) is what turns people off from this site.



Is it too much to hope it will turn *you* off ?



> Therefore I don't feel the milnet.ca staff had any reason to single me out and be so rude.



I'm not staff so.......


----------



## dimsum (26 Sep 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Once I saw the uniform up close it did not seem so bad and ugly.  It does not clash on ship the way the FF coverall in cadpat does.  That, looks ridiculous..... on ship.



Wouldn't firefighters (I'm assuming that's what FF means in this context) want to be one of the most visible uniforms?  If you're going into a fire, wouldn't it make sense to be wearing canary yellow or something similar (like bunker gear, civ pattern FF gear, etc.)?


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## ouyin2000 (26 Sep 2011)

I happen to agree that semantics and the whole "Holier than thou" attitude really does turn people off of participating on this forum. Sure someone may be a SME, but that doesn't mean they need to come off as a jerk.

On topic, I would like to pose a question. Could this pattern be the next for us? In a few years obviously, once the CADPAT fad has worn off.











http://a-tacs.com/


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Sep 2011)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> I happen to agree that semantics and the whole "Holier than thou" attitude really does turn people off of participating on this forum. Sure someone may be a SME, but that doesn't mean they need to come off as a jerk.
> 
> On topic, I would like to pose a question. Could this pattern be the next for us? In a few years obviously, once the CADPAT fad has worn off.
> 
> ...



The only ones acting like jerks are the ones trying to sneak in with the cheap shots and trying to show they can dicerne attitude, intent and inflection from an internet post. You can't. This shit stops now. The next one to take the thread off course, gets whacked.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## aesop081 (27 Sep 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Wouldn't firefighters (I'm assuming that's what FF means in this context) want to be one of the most visible uniforms?  If you're going into a fire, wouldn't it make sense to be wearing canary yellow or something similar (like bunker gear, civ pattern FF gear, etc.)?



The bunker gear, that they respond to fires in, is not CADPAT, so what is the issue ?


----------



## Scott (27 Sep 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Wouldn't firefighters (I'm assuming that's what FF means in this context) want to be one of the most visible uniforms?  If you're going into a fire, wouldn't it make sense to be wearing canary yellow or something similar (like bunker gear, civ pattern FF gear, etc.)?



Of note: the second largest fire department in the world, the FDNY, uses black bunker gear. Not that they are the be-all, end-all...anyway. Normally a three stripe system of fluorescent/retroreflective/fluorescent is employed for visibility. I can personally attest to the colour of the gear not factoring a whole hell of a lot, the stripes are what show up *if* you have a beam of light cut the smoke. I find them of increased value when attending MVAs where lighting might be low and you have dickheads ignoring all the flashing lights to continue to drive mach chicken.

Striping itself can open a whole other can of worms. Many feel the fluorescent striping can cause a heat sink because, by design, fluorescent materials absorb energy. There have been changes to counter the affects of heat sink like split bands of striping in vulnerable areas (wrists)

Anyway, that's my contribution to a derail, back on topic.


----------



## Pusser (27 Sep 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> From what I have seen on the Daily Mail website over the past few months that is true.  Any stories regarding soldiers in the UK have had them in Mulitcam when not in their No. 1's.  *I'm sure it makes more sense from a budgetary point of view to have only one pattern to worry about.  I can only imagine how expensive it is for us to have two styles to maintain.*



Are we coming full circle?  One of the stated reasons that Canada was one of the last countries to adopt a dispersed pattern uniform was that we couldn't afford multiple styles for different zones and that OD was the best compromise for use in all zones.  La plus ça change, la plus ç'est la même chose...


----------



## darkskye (29 Sep 2011)

Perhaps, a little off topic, but I wish they would improve the NCD pants. I find they are heavy and they are a little uncomfortable to wear when working on ship.


----------



## Pusser (29 Sep 2011)

rezz said:
			
		

> Perhaps, a little off topic, but I wish they would improve the NCD pants. I find they are heavy and they are a little uncomfortable to wear when working on ship.



There are far sight better than the ones that used to shrink with EVERY wash (and no, it wasn't just the duff causing it) and turn purple!


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Sep 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ...and no, it wasn't just the duff causing it...



...double-duffing would make them "shrink" though, right?


----------



## MikeL (29 Sep 2011)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> On topic, I would like to pose a question. Could this pattern be the next for us? In a few years obviously, once the CADPAT fad has worn off.
> 
> http://www.militarypolicesupply.net/cart/images/ACU_Coat__A-TACS_2.jpg
> https://dstactical.com/images/ACUTrouserATACS.jpg
> ...



If you are going to propose a camo, you might want to at least pose some pros/cons on why you think it should be adapted.  I don't think CADPAT is a  "fad" that is going to wear off anytime soon.  I don't see why ATACs would replace CADPAT,  I see it running into the same issue as UCP and sticking in a lot in green areas.  Also why would you like ATACs to replace CADPAT?  Do you think it's a better camo pattern?  What do you think is wrong with our current TW and Arid CADPAT?


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Sep 2011)

The Canadian Forces is not in the business of keeping fashion moguls and fashion designers employed.  Nor is the CF expected to follow any other military in its pursuit of clothing and equipment for its troops. 

We can't afford to be changing combat uniforms every four or five years. It is far to expensive, plus what we have works fairly well.


----------



## Tow Tripod (29 Sep 2011)

I'm sure their is one CF fashion designer living well in retirement.Remember the work dress uniform of the early 90's? I still have my duck hunting jacket!


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## OldSolduer (29 Sep 2011)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> I'm sure their is one CF fashion designer living well in retirement.Remember the work dress uniform of the early 90's? I still have my duck hunting jacket!



Different times, different mind set. Our "leaders" were more concerned about how we looked rather than how we performed where it counted - in the field.


----------



## RangerRay (29 Sep 2011)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> I'm sure their is one CF fashion designer living well in retirement.Remember the work dress uniform of the early 90's? I still have my duck hunting jacket!



Whoever thought the shirt collar should be popped over top the jacket collar, was stuck in the '70s, IMHO.  I always thought garrison dress would have been more practical if it were tan shirt, combat pants and combat boots.  If it's cool, put on the sweater.  

There.  I got that off my chest.  I feel much better!  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Sep 2011)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> Whoever thought the shirt collar should be popped over top the jacket collar, was stuck in the '70s, IMHO.  I always thought garrison dress would have been more practical if it were tan shirt, combat pants and combat boots.  If it's cool, put on the sweater.
> 
> There.  I got that off my chest.  I feel much better!  ;D



There was never a need for a Dress Uniform, a "work dress" and an operational uniform ie combats/CADPAT. Two uniforms only - DEU and operational - ie NCD, CADPAT, flight suits etc

In the Infantry, work dress was just another parade dress. We spent too much time looking pretty and not enough being dirty.

Now, if any of you has the bright idea to reintroduce ascots, you shall feel my wrath...and Shall Smite you!!


----------



## RangerRay (29 Sep 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> There was never a need for a Dress Uniform, a "work dress" and an operational uniform ie combats/CADPAT. Two uniforms only - DEU and operational - ie NCD, CADPAT, flight suits etc
> 
> In the Infantry, work dress was just another parade dress. We spent too much time looking pretty and not enough being dirty.



Agreed.  It didn't make sense to have two high-maintenance uniforms that served more or less the same purpose, but weren't for the same purpose.  We wore garrison dress to sort out stores and other labour-type work in the armoury.  I might as well have worn DEUs.  Hence my suggestion; a little dressier for garrison, but still practical.  But I'm not saying the Army should do it now!  They are thankfully gone for good.



			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Now, if any of you has the bright idea to reintroduce ascots, you shall feel my wrath...and Shall Smite you!!



But they were sooooo classy!  ;D  Don't you want to look like a disco soldier again?


----------



## Danjanou (29 Sep 2011)

You do know if you mention Work Dress, Garrsion Dress or Ascots that God kills a kitten right. 8)


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Sep 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> You do know if you mention Work Dress, Garrsion Dress or Ascots that God kills a kitten right. 8)



I have a special dispensation. 

"No kitten shall be killed or harmed if Jim Seggie says "Work Dress, Garrison Dress or ascots" in the Improved Combat Uniform thread."


----------



## Redeye (29 Sep 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Now, if any of you has the bright idea to reintroduce ascots, you shall feel my wrath...and Shall Smite you!!



Wait for it...

I know the PLF has crates of regimental ascots still lying around waiting to go back into service.


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

Anyone who has patrolled in Afghanistan will tell you our Arid Cadpat is far better than any other camo pattern in theatre, at least in the south. the American ACU is pretty damn good in the mountains of north eastern Afghanistan. ( Judging by video and pictures only ). Our Arid also works really well in Wainright, suffield and shilo in the late summer, better than the TW. My only complaint with our combats is the design and quality. I would like to see us adapt an American style combat uniform with the multiple pockets, zippers and Velcro While keeping the Cadpat that we spent millions innovate and works so well.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> Anyone who has patrolled in Afghanistan will tell you our Arid Cadpat is far better than any other camo pattern in theatre, at least in the south. the American ACU is pretty damn good in the mountains of north eastern Afghanistan. ( Judging by video and pictures only ). Our Arid also works really well in Wainright, suffield and shilo in the late summer, better than the TW. My only complaint with our combats is the design and quality. I would like to see us adapt an American style combat uniform with the multiple pockets, zippers and Velcro While keeping the Cadpat that we spent millions innovate and works so well.



I think that's a good idea.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (29 Sep 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I think that's a good idea.



And apparently thats what this ICU thing is; a CADPAT, ACU cut, multi pocket, velrco & zipper uniform for Canadians. 

How this rig-a-ma-role of comments about Ascots (what the hell is an Ascot by the way ??? ) and work dress started I will never know.


----------



## McG (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> I would like to see us adapt an American style combat uniform with the multiple pockets, zippers and Velcro While keeping the Cadpat that we spent millions innovate and works so well.


Do you mean, something like the new uniform that this thread is about?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101505/post-1059149.html#msg1059149


----------



## Pusser (29 Sep 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...double-duffing would make them "shrink" though, right?



Double-duffing should not make pants get shorter.


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

Yes that picture appears to be U.S combats but that camo pattern is crap. Greys may have worked well when the Nazis wore them but the thought of using a grey based all combat uniform doesn't work unless your only fighting/working in mountains or gravel. That's why the U.S ACU didn't last and was replaced by MultiCam. Evan still you need at least 2 styles (colour) of Camo just like every modern military in the world except for the U.S ARMY.


----------



## Jungle (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> That's why the U.S ACU didn't last and was replaced by MultiCam. Evan still you need at least 2 styles (colour) of Camo just like every modern military in the world except for the U.S ARMY.



ACU has not been replaced; multicam is an Afghan theater-specific pattern for the US Army, everybody not deployed (or not about to deploy) is wearing ACU. The units now serving in Afg will return to ACU after their deployment.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Sep 2011)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> And apparently thats what this ICU thing is; a CADPAT, ACU cut, multi pocket, velrco & zipper uniform for Canadians.
> 
> How this rig-a-ma-role of comments about Ascots (what the hell is an Ascot by the way ??? ) and work dress started I will never know.



Capitalized like that it's a racetrack


----------



## rmc_wannabe (29 Sep 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Capitalized like that it's a racetrack



Google chrome autocorrect has failed me


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

They did that because ACU is ineffective, therefore reiterating my point.


----------



## Pusser (29 Sep 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Capitalized like that it's a racetrack



But, you are expected to wear an ascot at Ascot...


----------



## Jungle (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> They did that because ACU is ineffective, therefore reiterating my point.



Dude, I spent the first half of this year on a FOB with US Army Soldiers.


----------



## MikeL (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> They did that because ACU is ineffective, therefore reiterating my point.



ACU is the name of their Combat Uniform, UCP is the actual pattern name.  Like what was said Multicam/OEF-P is only for use in Afghanistan, UCP pattern is still worn everywhere else and will stay that way untill the US Army picks a new pattern to replace UCP for everything.



			
				glotto99 said:
			
		

> Anyone who has patrolled in Afghanistan will tell you our Arid Cadpat is far better than any other camo pattern in theatre, at least in the south. the American ACU is pretty damn good in the mountains of north eastern Afghanistan. ( Judging by video and pictures only ).



Multicam/OEF-P seems to work pretty well in Kandahar as well as our Arid CADPAT, same for the Arid MARPAT.


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

I'm missing your point.


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

Are you kidding me? ACU. Is the Army Combat Uniform, there is no other name for it. You idiots would probably argue if I told you Jesus was a Jew.


----------



## vonGarvin (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> You idiots would probably argue if I told you Jesus was a Jew.


A Jew?  I thought He was a Republican?  ???


----------



## sapperboysen (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> Are you kidding me? ACU. Is the Army Combat Uniform, there is no other name for it. You idiots would probably argue if I told you Jesus was a Jew.



ACU is the actual uniform (whether it be multicam, UCP, or another pattern) The camouflage may change but it is still the Army Combat Uniform. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Camouflage_Pattern

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Combat_Uniform


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

lol Good one! But I think he'd make a better Democrat.


----------



## MikeL (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> Are you kidding me? ACU. Is the Army Combat Uniform, there is no other name for it. You idiots would probably argue if I told you Jesus was a Jew.



Wow, you are really getting work up over this?

Yes, ACU is Army Combat Uniform no one is saying otherwise, but that's us calling our field uniform Combats.  UCP is the actual name of the pattern.

Thanks for calling me an idiot though, always good to throw that out once in awhile when you are trying to make a point. 

And yes, I agree that Jesus was a Jew.


I guess you should email  US Army PEO Soldier, and call them idiots as well for saying ACU is just the name of the uniform and not the camo pattern which they call UCP.



> The Army Combat Uniform (ACU) consists of a jacket and trousers in the Universal Camouflage Pattern (UCP).


https://peosoldier.army.mil/newpeo/Equipment/saas/default.asp


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

Not true because before ACU, there was BDU (Battle Dress Uniform) and the DCU (Desert Camouflage Uniform). The name changes with the Uniform. When the official U.S Army uniform changes so will the name.


----------



## MikeL (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> Not true because before ACU, there was BDU (Battle Dress Uniform) and the DCU (Desert Camouflage Uniform). The name changes with the Uniform. When the official U.S Army uniform changes so will the name.



Edited my above post to show a better quote, but here is is again and another talking about Multicam

https://peosoldier.army.mil/newpeo/Equipment/saas/default.asp


> The Army Combat Uniform (ACU) consists of a jacket and trousers in the Universal Camouflage Pattern (UCP)





> OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM FIRE RESISTANT ARMY COMBAT UNIFORM (OEF FR ACU)
> 
> The Operation Enduring Freedom Fire Resistant Army Combat Uniform (OEF FR ACU), which uses the MultiCam camouflage pattern, will provide concealment for the Soldier operating in Afghanistan’s multiple-terrain environment.
> 
> The MultiCam FR ACU will include several upgrades identified for incorporation into the FR ACU in UCP



Yes in the past the US had different names for their woodland and desert uniforms(BDU and DCU) but because they did it in the past doesn't mean they will do in the present and future.


----------



## glotto99 (29 Sep 2011)

There still is only one ACU, The ACU that is not in UCP is called the OEF ACU, or the MultiCam ACU. Meaning that when I say ACU I'm referring to one uniform and one uniform only.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (29 Sep 2011)

*Stop feeding the troll and he will either go away, starve, or eat his young*

Just saying.....


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Sep 2011)

glotto99 said:
			
		

> ...when I say ACU I'm referring to one uniform and one uniform only.



The UCP one, or the OEF FR one?


----------



## MedCorps (29 Sep 2011)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any news on if the boot will have more then one manufacturer or what manufacturer?  Are we stuck with pouliot/boulet and that P.O.S  :facepalm:



I was in a meeting today and the topic of the new boot came up. 

Here was the "update" provided: 

We are getting 120,000 pairs of these boots with a user acceptance trial being conducted now that ends sometime in Nov 11.  It is then expected that the contract will be awarded about the end of 2011 with the first boots showing up late in the spring of 2012.  

This is a huge project... estimated at 38.4 million dollars.  We will get a new boot that has been made from lessons learned (from both the operational and medical communities).  It will be brown with an IR coating of some sort.  The good news is that it will be lighter.  The operational life of the boot is estimated to be 180 days.  

That is all that was said... any other input from me would only be personal opinion (and I really do not have one... on this topic  ;D)

MC


----------



## Danjanou (29 Sep 2011)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Wait for it...
> 
> I know the PLF has crates of regimental ascots still lying around waiting to go back into service.



Based on my past experiences with them I'm not surprised in the slightest. Are they stored next to the crates of Pith Helmets, Officer's swagger sticks, knee high puttees and fake Brit public school accents ( subalterns for the use of).  8)


----------



## marshall sl (29 Sep 2011)

Don't forget the Oliver pattern leather web gear  and Battle Bowlers


----------



## Tow Tripod (29 Sep 2011)

Actually I have a Duck Hunters jacket and a PPCLI Officers swagger stick collecting dust at home! Soon I will be able to add some digital green combats! I love the Army!!


----------



## ballz (29 Sep 2011)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> This is a huge project... estimated at 38.4 million dollars.



Every proponent of a boot allowance just collectively gritted their teeth :facepalm:


----------



## dimsum (29 Sep 2011)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> The operational life of the boot is estimated to be 180 days.



So what does that mean...?  It magically pumpkins at Day 181?


----------



## Journeyman (29 Sep 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> So what does that mean...?  It magically pumpkins at Day 181?


I _suspect_ it means that for all deployments in excess of 180 days, the supply system can expect to have to stock and issue additional boots for each soldier in theatre.


You're airforce, aren't you?


----------



## Towards_the_gap (29 Sep 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I _suspect_ it means that for all deployments in excess of 180 days, the supply system can expect to have to stock and issue additional boots for each soldier in theatre.
> 
> 
> You're airforce, aren't you?




and I suspect that at 181 days people will either have to begin gun taping the boots together or their toes will stick out the ends like 1950's cartoon hobos.

I am army and I do not trust defence procurement.


----------



## Journeyman (29 Sep 2011)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> .... I do not trust defence procurement.


Me neither, but hey, it was a chance to slag a zoomie    ;D


----------



## klink1983 (29 Sep 2011)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, his opionion is shared by a lot of people I know; the majority of the Pte/Cpls I know actually. It has less to do with people being anal and everyone from the rank of sargeant up treating us like children most of the time. Some of the most hardcore "I love the army!" types are VR-ing so they can go work in mines because they're tired of being degraded. There's the feeling that initiative is unwelcome, that questions aren't tolerated, you're ineffective without supervision, and thinking for yourself is a waste of time. It's totally off topic but I agree with him for the most part. We've had sections where 8/10 people have VR'd/not renewed their contracts in the last year or so.
> 
> As for the ICU, I'm not a fan of zippers, but we'll see. There's a few features I'm looking forward to, especially the new shoulder design.



Sad to say but this is an accurate observation. In all honesty my G.A.F.F. is currently 0 and has been for a while. I have attempted to offer input into some things (I know when this is good, and when its good to obey rank) and I was chastized. I guess there are some Sgt.s out there who are jealous of someone with post secondary education. I am currently attempting to OT to another trade or get out altogether, I understand that experience speaks alot....but we are in the 21st century and not the British styled army of the early 20th century. Advice, constructive input, and suggestions are not always a bad thing.....I am just a Corporal so what do I know.


----------



## aesop081 (29 Sep 2011)

klink1983 said:
			
		

> Advice, constructive input, and suggestions are not always a bad thing.....



Of course they are not a bad thing. That being said, it doesn't mean they are good suggestions............


----------



## PuckChaser (29 Sep 2011)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> and I suspect that at 181 days people will either have to begin gun taping the boots together or their toes will stick out the ends like 1950's cartoon hobos.
> 
> I am army and I do not trust defence procurement.



You're giving lowest bidder contracting credit. 160 days the laces rip. 170 days the leather hardens. 180 days the sole falls off the boot and cannot be reattached as the leather has turned to dust.


----------



## jollyjacktar (29 Sep 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Every proponent of a boot allowance just collectively gritted their teeth :facepalm:



They (Every proponent), actually didn't believe for one minute that the system would really consider to allow them to buy footwear that they like, provide good value for money and works.   :facepalm: :facepalm:


----------



## ballz (29 Sep 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> They (Every proponent), actually didn't believe for one minute that the system would really consider to allow them to buy footwear that they like, provide good value for money and works.   :facepalm: :facepalm:



but you don't have to put out the last little flicker of hope left in us ;D


----------



## cphansen (30 Sep 2011)

RE new boots estimated cost of 38.4 million dollars for 120000 pairs. IE $320 a pair!

Are they made of snakeskin or alligator hide?

This does seem a little expensive to me, I know its not as expensive as the F35 but what quality do these boots have that make them worth 320 a pair?


----------



## chrisf (30 Sep 2011)

Regional cost benefits.


----------



## Thompson_JM (30 Sep 2011)

SherH2A said:
			
		

> RE new boots estimated cost of 38.4 million dollars for 120000 pairs. IE $320 a pair!
> 
> Are they made of snakeskin or alligator hide?
> 
> This does seem a little expensive to me, I know its not as expensive as the F35 but what quality do these boots have that make them worth 320 a pair?




Each pair is inspected by the General in charge of procurement, and he even personally signs the "Inspected By:" slip that falls out of the boot when we get it....


Really though... 180 days??? My SWATS last longer then that! (Even the ones I had overseas!) 

If they are actually working out to 350 a pair, then for a soldier deploying for a one year tour that will be a cost of 1400 in boots alone.... 

Hell, for 500 bucks you can get two pairs of Danners that will last you 3 years!  My Strykers are just finally getting to the point where I should replace em... And I bought them in early 2006.... 

Someone from NDHQ please explain to me where I am missing something?


----------



## Jungle (30 Sep 2011)

SherH2A said:
			
		

> RE new boots estimated cost of 38.4 million dollars for 120000 pairs. IE $320 a pair!
> 
> Are they made of snakeskin or alligator hide?
> 
> This does seem a little expensive to me, I know its not as expensive as the F35 but what quality do these boots have that make them worth 320 a pair?



They sell them by weight...


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Sep 2011)

Jungle said:
			
		

> They sell them by weight...



Then mine should be cheaper!   ;D  Oh, you meant _bulk_ weight, right?   :facepalm:


----------



## Gunner98 (1 Oct 2011)

Please don't forget that those wonderful daypacks (book bags) cost $290 each ($18.9 Mill for 65,360 packs*) and from the same company FELLFAB those wonderful Load Carriage System/Tactical Vests .  

FELLFAB also manufactured the new rucksack in a contract that cost $22.6 mill.  The 3 contracts totaled over $50 mill.  http://www.fellfab.com/canada/news/110906.shtml  Did they get it right on the third try?

Take a look at CTS website for more 'high end' purchases.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/aete/clothethesoldiercts-habillezlesoldathls-eng.asp 


This article lists many of the great Canadian contractors on page 3: 

http://www.summitconnects.com/Articles_Columns/PDF_Documents/200409_04.pdf

*Daypack discussion with Fellfab press release: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/16110.0


----------



## Sigger (4 Oct 2011)

If you take into consideration that a quality pair of boots are pricey( http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Footwear/BackpackingBoots.jsp ). Same thing with backpacks ( http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Packs/MultiDayExpedition.jsp ). I am quite happy we are not issued junk.


----------



## Gunner98 (4 Oct 2011)

Sigger,

You and I both know there is a difference between a school/book bag (lunch and textbooks), a back pack (overnight) and rucksack (multi-day), right?

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Packs/OvernightPacks.jsp
http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Packs/SchoolBags.jsp

I am sure you also recognize that something off-the-shelf at MEC has some profit for the store on top of the manufacturer's profit margin?   ???


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (4 Oct 2011)

Sigger said:
			
		

> If you take into consideration that a quality pair of boots are pricey( http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Footwear/BackpackingBoots.jsp ). Same thing with backpacks ( http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Packs/MultiDayExpedition.jsp ). I am quite happy we are not issued junk.



I disagree, that we're not issued junk.  

You should hear the complaints (valid ones) about the new ruck, the GP Boots, etc...they may be PRICEY, but expensive does not equal good.  

The points brought up, in my opinion should be looked into seriously.  Boots being junk and chewing feet up like no tomorrow, worse then boots that are decades older model is NOT acceptable.  Just like why would you trial a combat boot, with desk/office people in NDHQ, they are not the target "market"

We're also spending all this money "developping" our own boot, which to be honest as someone who's worked in clothing stores, I can honestly say 8-9 out of 10 have nothing good to say/bad reviews for these boots...logically we wouldn't go with the same brand withouth them coming up with another model/design...which we really haven't, the brown temperate boot looks pretty much like the black GP boot, but with nylon uppers. 

What I don't understand is that there are all these boots out there that are time proven and built to foreign military specs, and our very own soldiers swear by some of these, yet we ignore that, and try to re-invent the wheel, making things cost a lot more AND take a lot more time.


----------



## ballz (4 Oct 2011)

Sigger said:
			
		

> If you take into consideration that a quality pair of boots are pricey( http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Footwear/BackpackingBoots.jsp ). Same thing with backpacks ( http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/Packs/MultiDayExpedition.jsp ). I am quite happy we are not issued junk.



Considering you just showed that the issued BACKpack is as expensive as some top-quality RUCKsacks, I would say all you proved is that you are issued overpriced junk... which is exactly what we were saying. I use a Spec Ops T.H.E. Pack which is far superior to the issues smallpack, and costs $201.95 brand new instead of $290.

As for the boots, most of us aren't strangers to how much a good pair of boots cost, and most of us (admittedly I'm not one) are wearing boots that cost less than $320 (and they aren't junk).


----------



## Sigger (4 Oct 2011)

Perhaps I spoke out of line. I have been out of the fold for a few years. However, I am wearing a pair of issued Gortex boots from 2005 that are more comfortable and durable than any Danners or Scarpas I have ever owned. Same thing goes for that issued "book bag".
So I suppose I speak for myself when I say that I am glad we are not issued junk.



			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Sigger,
> 
> You and I both know there is a difference between a school/book bag (lunch and textbooks), a back pack (overnight) and rucksack (multi-day), right?
> I am sure you also recognize that something off-the-shelf at MEC has some profit for the store on top of the manufacturer's profit margin?   ???


  No need to get snarky.


----------



## Arctic Acorn (6 Oct 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> fake Brit public school accents ( subalterns for the use of)



They had more than one?


----------



## Redeye (7 Oct 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Based on my past experiences witht hem I'm not surprised in the slightest. Are they stored next to the crates of Pith Helmets, Officer's swagger sticks, knee hight puttees and fake Brit public school accents ( subalterns for the use of).  8)



The pith helmets are stored in what used to be the WOs & Sgts Mess. I know, I'm in charge of them.


----------



## Danjanou (7 Oct 2011)

You're in charge of what apparently are a bunch of homeless Warrant officers and Sergeants? They really don't like you do they?


----------



## Arctic Acorn (12 Oct 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> You're in charge of what apparently are a bunch of homeless Warrant officers and Sergeants? They really don't like you do they?



Certainly not homeless! Much like Gandalf, they are _precisely_ where they mean to be...


----------



## doomlord (12 Dec 2011)

SherH2A said:
			
		

> RE new boots estimated cost of 38.4 million dollars for 120000 pairs. IE $320 a pair!
> 
> Are they made of snakeskin or alligator hide?
> 
> This does seem a little expensive to me, I know its not as expensive as the F35 but what quality do these boots have that make them worth 320 a pair?


I agree that the boots are extremely over-priced. I recently bought a pair of oakley SI assault boots for $200 and their by far better than any boots ive been issued.


----------



## armyvern (13 Dec 2011)

Can we just fucking merge this thread into all the other "Boots" threads? The issued ones cost twice as much because you're Federal and need to purchase via contract ... as every other one of those boot threads point out.

That sucks. That's the way it is. Do we really need to dive in again? It's not changing despite the fact that it should.


----------



## Ham Sandwich (25 Apr 2012)

Recently ran into a member wearing the new uniform (obtained via trials i believe) and got a close look. I definitely like the look of it on first impressions. While i obviously can't say anything about the quality, it appears much more practical, modern and sharper looking than the current. No surprises, it's very similar in design to the american ACU. I'd be happy to wear this new uniform vice the current one.... 

....except....

It seems the direction is to wear two gigantic red and white canadian flags (literally the size of the IR reflective flags and IFF patches worn on sleeves overseas), one on each arm. 

I swear to god, the guy looked like an astronaut about to go out on a space-walk to fix the canadarm.

That direction is going to have to change. Absurd is the only word to describe how two giant red and white flags on the arms look. One large subdued (green and black) flag on one arm is perfectly sufficient. One has to wonder who makes these decisions and what terms of reference they're using (perhaps it was the same guy who made the issued valise straps about a foot too short in order to save us time snailing the excess when withdrawing under contact?). Just because there's velcro space on your uniform doesn't automatically mean it has to be filled with something. In this day and age, given the prevalence of velcro on modern systems, you're going to have to get accustomed to the fact that there will be bare velcro on your kit/uniforms. That's not cause to fill it with something inappropriate just for the sake of filling it.  

....way to come out with a new piece of kit that the troops would like to wear, then do something to make them embarrassed to wear it. 

....and yes, i'm fully expecting the "what, you're not proud of your flag"? Yes. I am. I'm a Canadian soldier. But there's a limit. Nobody wants to look like a joke in their uniform. 

The other people who saw it all seemed to agree that the flags were way over the top and looked silly. Hopefully if enough of us point this out, someone will listen.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (25 Apr 2012)

Ham Sandwich said:
			
		

> Recently ran into a member wearing the new uniform (obtained via trials i believe) and got a close look. I definitely like the look of it on first impressions. While i obviously can't say anything about the quality, it appears much more practical, modern and sharper looking than the current. No surprises, it's very similar in design to the american ACU. I'd be happy to wear this new uniform vice the current one....
> 
> ....except....
> 
> ...


 
Trials and practice are 2 different things. Hopefully that individual has the common courtesy to the rest of us and puts your concerns down on his review card.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2012)

Ham Sandwich said:
			
		

> Recently ran into a member wearing the new uniform (obtained via trials i believe) and got a close look. I definitely like the look of it on first impressions. While i obviously can't say anything about the quality, it appears much more practical, modern and sharper looking than the current. No surprises, it's very similar in design to the american ACU. I'd be happy to wear this new uniform vice the current one....
> 
> ....except....
> 
> ...



I believe that the uniform is being prepared by the 'Harper Government' to display a large '1812' on one shoulder and a picture of a flaming White House on the other. It goes nicely with our new national anthem - introduced for the duration of 2012: ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7jlFZhprU4


----------



## buzgo (21 May 2012)

Here's a thought - if the ICU is going to be so great, why is there a solicitation on MERX for at least 3,800 Crye Precision uniforms (camouflage pattern not specified), with options for 1,900 more, delivered within 200 km of Petawawa?


----------



## medicineman (21 May 2012)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Here's a thought - if the ICU is going to be so great, why is there a solicitation on MERX for at least 3,800 Crye Precision uniforms (camouflage pattern not specified), with options for 1,900 more, delivered within 200 km of Petawawa?



Squirrels, oops, JTF-2 are going to do their own dye jobs as they see fit for whatever they may be up to ?


----------



## MikeL (21 May 2012)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Here's a thought - if the ICU is going to be so great, why is there a solicitation on MERX for at least 3,800 Crye Precision uniforms (camouflage pattern not specified), with options for 1,900 more, delivered within 200 km of Petawawa?



Ref that Merx order it is asking for those Crye uniforms in multicam - last merx I saw regarding the order.   Also,   what makes you believe that CANSOF won't be wearing the ICU when it comes out?


----------



## PuckChaser (21 May 2012)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> Here's a thought - if the ICU is going to be so great, why is there a solicitation on MERX for at least 3,800 Crye Precision uniforms (camouflage pattern not specified), with options for 1,900 more, delivered within 200 km of Petawawa?



The Crye kit looks pretty much the same as the ICU, perhaps the MREX listing is giving anyone else a chance to beat the bid? Either that, or theres a lot of SF units within 200km of Petawawa.....


----------



## buzgo (21 May 2012)

I don't think that the Crye uniforms are anything like the ICU. The submission is asking for the G3 combat shirt - similar to the OTW shirt issued in Afghanistan. Crye's stuff has received some pretty glowing reviews and is in use with a large percentage of the western world's special operations community.

http://www.cryeprecision.com/P-APRCSE02LGR/G3-Combat-Shirt%E2%84%A2

http://www.cryeprecision.com/P-APRCPE0232R/G3-Combat-Pants%E2%84%A2


I know we are all assuming it's a SOFCOM buy but maybe, just maybe, its a large scale trial...


----------



## PuckChaser (21 May 2012)

Hopefully they go with another manufacturer for the hybrid shirts, I've worn mine here about 10 times each, washed it just as many and there is stitching falling apart everywhere.

Perhaps its a trial for a CADPAT(TW) hybrid combat shirt...


----------



## ArmyRick (21 May 2012)

As long as it looks cool, thats what important! Hopefully no dinosaur RSMs freak out about the new uniform....


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 May 2012)

I hope they fix the velcro pach on the left shoulder thing otherwise SF will be easy to trace from the trail of tiny Canadian flags on the ground. ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (22 May 2012)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> As long as it looks cool, thats what important! Hopefully no dinosaur RSMs freak out about the new uniform....



Watch the dinosaur cracks there Junior T Rex - you are about close to being one.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (22 May 2012)

Regarding the MERX solicitation for the 'Advanced Combat Uniform' for a customer 'within 200km of Petawawa' (i.e. CSOR/DHTC/JTF2), having read the in-depth solicitation (not just the summary on the non-subscriber section of MERX), they're calling for the uniforms to be done in Multicam.  There will be a shirt called the 'Direct Action' shirt that is pretty much the Crye Combat Shirt, a set of trousers which are pretty much the Crye Combat Pants, and a shirt called the 'Special Reconnaissance Shirt' which looks like the Crye Field Shirt.

As for the likelihood of the customer that buys these wearing the ICU when it comes into service, since there's the initial purchase of 3900 sets, with purchase options up to 5 years beyond the contract award date of another 1900 per option, it's unlikely they'd use the ICU for anything other than occasions when Canadian standard issue uniforms are required.


----------



## LieutenantPrivate (22 May 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I hope they fix the velcro pach on the left shoulder thing otherwise SF will be easy to trace from the trail of tiny Canadian flags on the ground. ;D



hah! everyone knows they dont wear canadian flags on their uniform!!


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 May 2012)

LieutenantPrivate said:
			
		

> hah! everyone knows they dont wear canadian flags on their uniform!!



You mean 'Them'? Of course 'They' don't... neither do I beacuse our stupid uniform is designed to shed maple leaves just like the real trees in Fall.  ;D


----------



## R031button (24 May 2012)

I'm less concerned about what jtf is wearing and more concerned about when I'll be able to exchange ripped pants at clothing stores again


----------



## OldSolduer (24 May 2012)

R031button said:
			
		

> I'm less concerned about what jtf is wearing and more concerned about when I'll be able to exchange ripped pants at clothing stores again



Agreed, particularly for the Reservists, Class A types.


----------



## Dkeh (24 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Agreed, particularly for the Reservists, Class A types.



Yea, I have 3 pairs of pants / 3 tunics that are full of holes and faded silver...and my sewing skills only extend so far. Yet I keep getting told "It will happen when it happens"


----------



## Matt_Fisher (24 May 2012)

Dkeh said:
			
		

> Yea, I have 3 pairs of pants / 3 tunics that are full of holes and faded silver...and my sewing skills only extend so far. Yet I keep getting told "It will happen when it happens"



These comments remind me of the late 90's when there were virtually nil stock of 'normal' sized combats due to a chronic shortage of the cloth used to manufacture combats resulting from the fabric mill that produced the cloth going out of business.


----------



## Lerch (24 May 2012)

I can understand a shortage of normal sizes, seeing as those are the most common to be exchanged, but even I, a 6'7" male cannot exchange my combats...
It seems the base supply here in Shilo has run a limited supply of skinny tall and skinny short sizes out, and my only chance to exchange my trousers is if I add 10" to my waist  

I look forward to new combats, whatever they are.


----------



## slayer/raptor (25 May 2012)

According to the dist chart on the original power point slide, the priority was to deploying units and then CTC.  Is anyone aware if CTC has started receiving the new combat set yet?


----------



## R031button (25 May 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Agreed, particularly for the Reservists, Class A types.



While I have sympathy for that, guys in my company are showing up to work in combats in a fucking horrid state, because base clothing doesn't have any combats to exchange and will not as their waiting for the improve combat uniform to arrive. We're the supposedly the core of the IRU and standing up for task force 1-13 (what ever that means) so I would assume we're high on the list for the ICU, but all I've heard is that base stores is expecting to get new combats in the summer some time.


----------



## Lerch (25 May 2012)

R031button said:
			
		

> *snip* but all I've heard is that base stores is expecting to get new combats in the summer some time.



That'd be nice, there's guys in my battery that are down to one good set of combats right now


----------



## LineJumper (29 May 2012)

Lerch said:
			
		

> That'd be nice, there's guys in my battery that are down to one good set of combats right now



A well trained troop then. I only keep 1 good uniform in my ruck for redeployment to garrison, as if I'm on ration strength, in the event we get a feed before cutting loose. (I suppose setting an example comes into play as well.)


----------



## Matt_Fisher (27 Jun 2012)

SoldiersSystems.net just published an article on the 'Improved Combat Uniform' solicitation that's been put on the MERX as a tender.

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/06/27/canada-tranistioning-enhanced-combat-uniform/

I believe that the concept is that the Enhanced Combat Uniform is primarily designed for training and garrison operations in Canada and for operational usage, whereby the FR Hybrid Shirt will continue to be issued on an as needed basis for operational areas which require the usage of the fragmentation vest and there is a significant risk of heat injuries (heat cramps, heat exhaustion, and heat stroke) and burn injuries.

What's interesting about the uniform is that it has a 2" wide x 3.5" tall section of loop Velcro for attaching rank insignia to.  I'm assuming that there will have to be two different types of CADPAT rank/unit title badges:  The current slip-on style, and a hook Velcro backed version that's 2" wide x 3.5" tall for use with the Enhanced Combat Uniform.

The upper sleeve pockets (5" wide x 6.5" tall) are 'flight crew' side entry style rather than the top flap style that's been used on the CADPAT AR shirt and the FR Hybrid Shirt.  The surface of the sleeve pocket is covered by a 4" wide x 6.5" tall section of loop Velcro and the shirt will come with 2 x CADPAT removable (backed by hook Velcro) patch panels (4" wide x 4.5" tall) to cover the majority of the loop Velcro, save a 4" wide x 2" tall section at the top of the sleeve pocket, which I assume is left exposed in order to allow placement of the Canadian flag badge.
It'll be interesting to see whether a Canadian version of the 'Order of the Undercollar' (www.orderoftheundercollar.com) will arise whereby morale and other type badges will be worn 'secretly' under the CADPAT patch panel.
Also, the current means of attaching brassards/armlets to the shirt sleeve will not be possible because the fabric and Velcro tabe that's at the top of the left sleeve has been eliminated.  It's probably likely that Velcro attached identifier badges, i.e. RSO, MP, Med Tech, Course Senior, Traffic Tech, etc. will be worn on the sleeve pocket Velcro panels in lieu of brassards with the identifiers on them.


----------



## Lerch (27 Jun 2012)

That's cool and all, but does that mean we have to wait longer to exchange our combats now?


----------



## dapaterson (27 Jun 2012)

There are actually a number of different issues at play.  The last comprehensive Army personnel survey of sizes was about 15 years ago; that biometric data is what is currently used for all CF clothing acquisitions.  So, if soldiers sizes have changed since then, the CF is buying kit in the wrong proportions - to say nothing of the question as to whether or not RCN and RCAF personnel share the same size and shape distributions as the Army.

There is currently an initiative to get up to date sizing information (and no, it's not acceptable to merely summarize what's in the supply system - how often have you taken "too big" or "too small" becuase the only other option is to get nothing?).


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Jun 2012)

Lerch said:
			
		

> That's cool and all, but does that mean we have to wait longer to exchange our combats now?



Delivery is supposed to start 45 days after the sample is accepted, and the MREX listing closes 24 July 12. I'd say at least 6 months till depot sends out stock to bases, and even then they're only making 45k shirts and 45k pants so we're still gonna be short with all the people waiting to get new uniforms.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (27 Jun 2012)

I have a question:  What if I wanted to suggest something before they start producing those?

I have noticed that on our current combats, we have the "hook" velcro on the pant pocket flaps, which rubs against skin and irritates it especially in the cold.  I always wondered why the velcro types aren't reversed to appease that?


----------



## dapaterson (27 Jun 2012)

That could be raised through a UCR - ask one of your friendly neighbourhood Sup Techs on how to do it (and on the proper form to use).


----------



## PMedMoe (27 Jun 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are actually a number of different issues at play.  The last comprehensive Army personnel survey of sizes was about 15 years ago; that biometric data is what is currently used for all CF clothing acquisitions.  So, if soldiers sizes have changed since then, the CF is buying kit in the wrong proportions - to say nothing of the question as to whether or not RCN and RCAF personnel share the same size and shape distributions as the Army.
> 
> There is currently an initiative to get up to date sizing information (and no, it's not acceptable to merely summarize what's in the supply system - how often have you taken "too big" or "too small" becuase the only other option is to get nothing?).



The study was done sometime in '97, I think.  I was one of the people in the survey.  I'm guessing they took an "average" or "median" of the all the info, because most kit is still too big for me.


----------



## InvaderGrimm (12 Jul 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are actually a number of different issues at play.  The last comprehensive Army personnel survey of sizes was about 15 years ago; that biometric data is what is currently used for all CF clothing acquisitions.  So, if soldiers sizes have changed since then, the CF is buying kit in the wrong proportions - to say nothing of the question as to whether or not RCN and RCAF personnel share the same size and shape distributions as the Army.
> 
> There is currently an initiative to get up to date sizing information (and no, it's not acceptable to merely summarize what's in the supply system - how often have you taken "too big" or "too small" becuase the only other option is to get nothing?).



They just recently did a new biometric survey. I was part of it here in Trenton. They used 3D rendering to get the sizing information of a large number of pers, male and female. They even double checked the measurements by using staff with good old fashioned tape measures. Whether they will be using this information for the sizing of the Improved Combat Uniform, I have no idea.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Jul 2012)

InvaderGrimm said:
			
		

> They just recently did a new biometric survey. I was part of it here in Trenton. They used 3D rendering to get the sizing information of a large number of pers, male and female. They even double checked the measurements by using staff with good old fashioned tape measures. Whether they will be using this information for the sizing of the Improved Combat Uniform, I have no idea.



I wonder why, if the rest of the world's retail industry can get it right and has been for decades, we need to reinvent the wheel on this?


----------



## a_majoor (12 Jul 2012)

I'd be a lot happier if the recruits could get the boots they are entitled to.

This "new" uniform thing is driving me around the bend as well, it seems to be the implied reason that no one can get exchanges for almost any reason. I had a candidate on my PLQ mod 1-3 who's uniform was held together with guntape, but was unable to exchange it. (And oddly, this was not at an ASU either).


----------



## PuckChaser (12 Jul 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> This "new" uniform thing is driving me around the bend as well, it seems to be the implied reason that no one can get exchanges for almost any reason. I had a candidate on my PLQ mod 1-3 who's uniform was held together with guntape, but was unable to exchange it. (And oddly, this was not at an ASU either).



The procurement and supply system botched keeping enough uniforms around, so when they went with the ICU to act as proper stock levels for all the sizes, they used it as an excuse to say that's why they were short sizes for everyone. Even though over 2 years ago they knew they were critical stock of 15 separate sizes of uniforms.


----------



## fraserdw (12 Jul 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I wonder why, if the rest of the world's retail industry can get it right and has been for decades, we need to reinvent the wheel on this?



I am not sure what a survey in Trenton will tell you about uniform distribution in Edmonton?


----------



## Hurricane (13 Jul 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I have a question:  What if I wanted to suggest something before they start producing those?
> 
> I have noticed that on our current combats, we have the "hook" velcro on the pant pocket flaps, which rubs against skin and irritates it especially in the cold.  I always wondered why the velcro types aren't reversed to appease that?



Got a needle and thread?


----------



## Kokanee (13 Jul 2012)

Kingston is still bone dry for combats in popular sizes, and we're starting to look rather tattered; I myself have maybe four months of wear left in my current sets, less if I put a lot of wear and tear on during our big summer EX.


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Jul 2012)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> SoldiersSystems.net just published an article on the 'Improved Combat Uniform' solicitation that's been put on the MERX as a tender.
> 
> http://soldiersystems.net/2012/06/27/canada-tranistioning-enhanced-combat-uniform/
> 
> I believe that the concept is that the Enhanced Combat Uniform is primarily designed for training and garrison operations in Canada and for operational usage, whereby the FR Hybrid Shirt will continue to be issued on an as needed basis for operational areas which require the usage of the fragmentation vest and there is a significant risk of heat injuries (heat cramps, heat exhaustion, and heat stroke) and burn injuries ....


Bump with an update - bidders have more time to bid:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/106487/post-1160484.html#msg1160484


----------



## buzgo (27 Jul 2012)

Hmmm... no bids?


----------



## fraserdw (27 Jul 2012)

As per my question with the rucksack, SDS is already making this uniform, why not go to them, license them for CADPAT and have them contract a Canadian clothing firm to make the uniform.  Why are we re-inventing an existing uniform.  We do this with all our kit and end up with crap.  Noisy brakes, shapeless rucksacks, tac vests that carry less than web gear, boots that do more injury than good.  In the end we go to real war and we have to buy the COTs stuff as a UOR.  The gear is out there, lets buy it COTs.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (27 Jul 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> As per my question with the rucksack, SDS is already making this uniform, why not go to them, license them for CADPAT and have them contract a Canadian clothing firm to make the uniform.  Why are we re-inventing an existing uniform.  We do this with all our kit and end up with crap.  Noisy brakes, shapeless rucksacks, tac vests that carry less than web gear, boots that do more injury than good.  In the end we go to real war and we have to buy the COTs stuff as a UOR.  The gear is out there, lets buy it COTs.



My <insert what deity you want here> man stop making sense!

 ;D


----------



## Jammer (27 Jul 2012)

Wait until it's decided that CADPAT is out and Multicam is in.

The US Army just shitcanned the one billion dollar fiasco that was the ACU.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (27 Jul 2012)

Maybe a CANFORGEN is imminent declaring Friday's to be 'Beachwear Day', in order to save wear and tear on our obviously insufficient stock of CADPAT uniforms.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (27 Jul 2012)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Maybe a CANFORGEN is imminent declaring Friday's to be 'Beachwear Day', in order to save wear and tear on our obviously insufficient stock of CADPAT uniforms.



Or <gasp> DEU 3 .....  ;D


----------



## fraserdw (27 Jul 2012)

If they are smart they should start releasing the AR CADPAT for wear.


----------



## Lerch (27 Jul 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Or <gasp> DEU 3 .....  ;D


Oh God please no, I'd suggest a 4 day work week though...


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Jul 2012)

Why not just ditch DEU, switch the main effort to pumping out CADPAT, and get some white belts to wear with CADPAT on special occasions? ;D


----------



## Matt_Fisher (28 Jul 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Why not just ditch DEU, switch the main effort to pumping out CADPAT, and get some white belts to wear with CADPAT on special occasions? ;D



I pray to God you're being sarcastic.


----------



## fraserdw (28 Jul 2012)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I pray to God you're being sarcastic.



I think it is a great idea!  Parade uniforms are napoleonic!  CADPAT can be dressed up nicely for a parade.  Then we can go to the Patrol blues for anyone who as a need to dress up, such generals and HQ types in Ottawa.  Blues would be at your expense and would replace mess kit as well.  2 uniforms only.


----------



## slayer/raptor (31 Jul 2012)

Latest rumour here at CTC is that full scale issue to start in the fall. Lets see if it plays out.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Aug 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I think it is a great idea!  Parade uniforms are napoleonic!  CADPAT can be dressed up nicely for a parade.  Then we can go to the Patrol blues for anyone who as a need to dress up, such generals and HQ types in Ottawa.  Blues would be at your expense and would replace mess kit as well.  2 uniforms only.



Perfect. That way we keep the focus on combat effectiveness and not 'tick tock' parade ground stuff. 

Maybe each Brigade could field a duty colur party, in dress blues, for the special occasions for each unit, so you don't have to waste time doing drill.

oh, wait... I forgot

 :bowing:


----------



## JorgSlice (1 Aug 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Perfect. That way we keep the focus on combat effectiveness and not 'tick tock' parade ground stuff.
> 
> Maybe each Brigade could field a duty colur party, in dress blues, for the special occasions for each unit, so you don't have to waste time doing drill.
> 
> ...



In my Canada!? I think not.  ;D


----------



## Hurricane (1 Aug 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I think it is a great idea!  Parade uniforms are Napoleonic!  CADPAT can be dressed up nicely for a parade.  Then we can go to the Patrol blues for anyone who as a need to dress up, such generals and HQ types in Ottawa.  Blues would be at your expense and would replace mess kit as well.  2 uniforms only.



Yes lets give soldiers one less thing to be disciplined in doing. No polishing boots, no ironing shirts or dry cleaning. Why not issue each soldier a squire to clean his weapon for him on range day? I may not have that long in the military, but the discipline level of fresh soldiers arriving to work drops every year. We don't need to help that along any more than we already do. I blame MTV.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (1 Aug 2012)

Black coveralls and battledress.  :nod:


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Aug 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Black coveralls and battledress.  :nod:



Hmmmm... I think I've found a reference that matches what you're talking about. At least you can wear your Iron Cross with your battle rig!  ;D

http://www.google.ca/search?q=ss%2Bpanzer%2Bdivision%2Buniforms&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_enCA388CA388&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6lIZUK3YMYH9igLTy4GgDw&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=848&bih=376


----------



## BDTyre (2 Aug 2012)

I don't think this has been brought up yet...but something to think about: Order of the Undercollar http://www.orderoftheundercollar.com/.


----------



## MikeL (2 Aug 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I don't think this has been brought up yet...but something to think about: Order of the Undercollar http://www.orderoftheundercollar.com/.




Not sure how they would relate to us?  US Army officers wore branch insignia on their collar with the old BDU/DCU uniforms,  when they switched to ACU they no longer did that.  Hench custom made patches were made so they could still do it unofficially.  When have Canadians worn insignia on their collars in our current CADPAT uniform?  What would a Canadian put onto that small patch of velcro that comes with the ECU mandarin collar?


----------



## Matt_Fisher (2 Aug 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I don't think this has been brought up yet...but something to think about: Order of the Undercollar http://www.orderoftheundercollar.com/.



Was already brought up in respect to the Velcro on the sleeve pockets and the CADPAT fabric panel which will cover them.



			
				Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> ...The upper sleeve pockets (5" wide x 6.5" tall) are 'flight crew' side entry style rather than the top flap style that's been used on the CADPAT AR shirt and the FR Hybrid Shirt.  The surface of the sleeve pocket is covered by a 4" wide x 6.5" tall section of loop Velcro and the shirt will come with 2 x CADPAT removable (backed by hook Velcro) patch panels (4" wide x 4.5" tall) to cover the majority of the loop Velcro, save a 4" wide x 2" tall section at the top of the sleeve pocket, which I assume is left exposed in order to allow placement of the Canadian flag badge.
> *It'll be interesting to see whether a Canadian version of the 'Order of the Undercollar' (www.orderoftheundercollar.com) will arise whereby morale and other type badges will be worn 'secretly' under the CADPAT patch panel.*
> Also, the current means of attaching brassards/armlets to the shirt sleeve will not be possible because the fabric and Velcro tabe that's at the top of the left sleeve has been eliminated.  It's probably likely that Velcro attached identifier badges, i.e. RSO, MP, Med Tech, Course Senior, Traffic Tech, etc. will be worn on the sleeve pocket Velcro panels in lieu of brassards with the identifiers on them.


----------



## PanaEng (2 Aug 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I don't think this has been brought up yet...but something to think about: Order of the Undercollar http://www.orderoftheundercollar.com/.


lol, I like this quote from that linked site: 





> On the Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) officers wore their rank on the right collar and branch on the left collar. When you were in a discussion with an Infantry Officer you knew you were talking to an Infantry Officer and you could adapt your speech to their mind set of thinking.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Aug 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Hmmmm... I think I've found a reference that matches what you're talking about. At least you can wear your Iron Cross with your battle rig!  ;D
> 
> http://www.google.ca/search?q=ss%2Bpanzer%2Bdivision%2Buniforms&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_enCA388CA388&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6lIZUK3YMYH9igLTy4GgDw&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=848&bih=376



I was thinking of Canada who used to make soldier wear coveralls in the field post-war as there was no "combat uniform" but certainly the Germans had style when it came to uniforms.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Aug 2012)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I was thinking of Canada who used to make soldier wear coveralls in the field post-war as there was no "combat uniform" but certainly the Germans had style when it came to uniforms.



Crewmen still wore black coveralls, daily in the field, at least until the late '70's.


----------



## BDTyre (5 Aug 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Not sure how they would relate to us?  US Army officers wore branch insignia on their collar with the old BDU/DCU uniforms,  when they switched to ACU they no longer did that.  Hench custom made patches were made so they could still do it unofficially.  When have Canadians worn insignia on their collars in our current CADPAT uniform?  What would a Canadian put onto that small patch of velcro that comes with the ECU mandarin collar?



I was thinking more morale patch type things...as Matt_Fisher pointed out in his refernce to when OotUC was brought up earlier. It will be interesting to see if anyone tries it and to what result.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (6 Aug 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I was thinking more morale patch type things...as Matt_Fisher pointed out in his refernce to when OotUC was brought up earlier. It will be interesting to see if anyone tries it and to what result.



I've seen a few Recce Pl and Sniper types do 'Recce' or 'Sniper' tabs/shoulder scrolls small enough to be worn under the piece of material on the Combat Shirt's left shoulder where you'd attach a brassard/armlet.

With respect to morale patches being worn overtly, I'm sure that the Velcro on the uniform will be the bane of many RSM's and there'll be 'No unauthorized patch' regs that will contradict one another as units will design and issue their own 'unofficial, but authorized' patches, only to have the hammer come down from Brigade/LFA/CLS HQs from time to time.


----------



## fraserdw (6 Aug 2012)

The first came out in my unit last week.  "Although new combat pants are designed to be worn un-bloused, this option is for situations of extreme heat on operations only.  All members of this HQ will wear their pants bloused while in garrison."


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Aug 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> The first came out in my unit last week.  "Although new combat pants are designed to be worn un-bloused, this option is for situations of extreme heat on operations only.  All members of this HQ will wear their pants bloused while in garrison."



I see some dinosaurs are still wondering the earth...... ;D


----------



## MikeL (6 Aug 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I see some dinosaurs are still wondering the earth...... ;D



What is the issue with wearing bloused pants in garrison?  Would there be any benefit to having unbloused pants while in garrison?  To me,  blousing pants is a more professional image.  Some members already look sloppy enough as is,  don't need anything more to add to that appearance. 

I'm all for unbloused pants in the field/operations,  so don't think I'm against it entirely.


----------



## brihard (6 Aug 2012)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I've seen a few Recce Pl and Sniper types do 'Recce' or 'Sniper' tabs/shoulder scrolls small enough to be worn under the piece of material on the Combat Shirt's left shoulder where you'd attach a brassard/armlet.
> 
> With respect to morale patches being worn overtly, I'm sure that the Velcro on the uniform will be the bane of many RSM's and there'll be 'No unauthorized patch' regs that will contradict one another as units will design and issue their own 'unofficial, but authorized' patches, only to have the hammer come down from Brigade/LFA/CLS HQs from time to time.



Already happening on the rain jackets. I've seen RHLI, 33 CER, CHofO, and GGFG pers all wearing velcro unit patches/flashes of some description that are 'good to go' within the units.


----------



## BDTyre (6 Aug 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Already happening on the rain jackets. I've seen RHLI, 33 CER, CHofO, and GGFG pers all wearing velcro unit patches/flashes of some description that are 'good to go' within the units.



We've been told no unissued/morale patches on issued kit; so most of the guys that feel like wearing unissued patches do so on their non-issued day packs and chest rigs. Not many actually bother though.


----------



## P_Laurin (7 Aug 2012)

Does anyone know if they will be issuing the ICU to new recruits or if they will postpone it until combat units have received them?


----------



## TN2IC (7 Aug 2012)

Now can I wear my combat patch?


----------



## MikeL (7 Aug 2012)

P_Laurin said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if they will be issuing the ICU to new recruits or if they will postpone it until combat units have received them?



Combat Arms units, and others would get priority over Recruits at CFLRS.

Also,  they are called the ECU now.  Your first post here is asking when you will get the new uniform?  Is that really the most important thing to you at this point?



			
				Macey said:
			
		

> Now can I wear my combat patch?



I honestly don't know how to take you at times,  are you being serious or joking?  I think you've posted if you can wear your 10th Mtn patch before.. Not sure if you really would attempt to wear that patch under the CADPAT cover.. but I'm guessing it won't work as the patch might take up too much velcro for the CADPAT cover to fit over properly.. plus it'll be a nice bulge that will probably get noticed.  

If units have their own patches that the CO/RSM have approved for wear  then by all means wear the patch.  But for all the unapproved patches,  just stick to wearing them on your backpack(if you bought your own) or keeping them at home or something.  Not really seeing the point in trying to be sneaky and wearing it under the CADPAT velcro cover.. no one will be seeing them anyways,  except maybe for a slight bulge under the velcro cover.


----------



## P_Laurin (7 Aug 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Combat Arms units, and others would get priority over Recruits at CFLRS.
> 
> Also,  they are called the ECU now.  Your first post here is asking when you will get the new uniform?  Is that really the most important thing to you at this point?



I'm supposedly being issued my kit within the next few weeks, and I was just asking out of curiosity. Just wanted to know if I'll get issued the old uniform, and then have to go again to get the ECU (Thank you for the correction.)


----------



## aesop081 (7 Aug 2012)

You'll get issued what you get issued.


----------



## P_Laurin (7 Aug 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You'll get issued what you get issued.



Im not complaining . Thanks for the information.


----------



## buzgo (7 Aug 2012)

Uh, based on the MERX extension, I assume we're all a long way away from getting this kit. So who cares about all these patch and who gets what when conversations?


----------



## TN2IC (7 Aug 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> If units have their own patches that the CO/RSM have approved for wear  then by all means wear the patch.  But for all the unapproved patches,  just stick to wearing them on your backpack(if you bought your own) or keeping them at home or something.  Not really seeing the point in trying to be sneaky and wearing it under the CADPAT velcro cover.. no one will be seeing them anyways,  except maybe for a slight bulge under the velcro cover.



Yeah I was just kidding. Kind of hard to tell on the internet. I just put my patch in a shadow box I made. Looks sweet in my man cave.


----------



## Bubbs25 (19 Aug 2012)

Does anyone know which Bases and timelines to when these new ECU's are going to be issued?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 Aug 2012)

Bubbs25 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know which Bases and timelines to when these new ECU's are going to be issued?



Why is it important?


----------



## PViddy (19 Aug 2012)

> Why is it important?



Curiosity and constructive conversation ? Obviously, from my avatar, i'll be getting whatever is new: last, and that's fine (and proper) with me but i'm wondering if this is straight up replacement or as items wear out ?

Cheers

PV


----------



## Nfld Sapper (19 Aug 2012)

For what I have been hearing it will be a gradual phase in, as items get worn out they will be replaced with the ICU's......

So expect to see a mixture of old uncovered buttons, covered buttons and ICU's for awhile.....


----------



## BDTyre (19 Aug 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> For what I have been hearing it will be a gradual phase in, as items get worn out they will be replaced with the ICU's......
> 
> So expect to see a mixture of old uncovered buttons, covered buttons and ICU's for awhile.....



That's bound to upset some people...I'v heard of WOs that don't like it when the uniform tops and bottoms have different levels of fade, and I personally have come across the odd WO who didn't like my exposed button top being worn with my covered button pants.  :


----------



## aesop081 (19 Aug 2012)

Yes, all us WOs are terrible human beings.


----------



## PViddy (19 Aug 2012)

> For what I have been hearing it will be a gradual phase in, as items get worn out they will be replaced with the ICU's......
> 
> So expect to see a mixture of old uncovered buttons, covered buttons and ICU's for awhile.....



Good to know, thanks.

Cheers

PV


----------



## Franko (19 Aug 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> That's bound to upset some people...I'v heard of WOs that don't like it when the uniform tops and bottoms have different levels of fade, and I personally have come across the odd WO who didn't like my exposed button top being worn with my covered button pants.  :



Doesn't matter what they think or like, you get what you get issued and that's it. 

If they are that wrapped up around the axle about pants, things at work must be running smoothly.

Regards


----------



## BDTyre (19 Aug 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yes, all us WOs are terrible human beings.



On the contrary, I've had some great ones.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Aug 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yes, all us WOs are terrible human beings.


Ya you  are and that is why ....


Oh never mind, it seems I'm one of the worst of the worst....


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (19 Aug 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> That's bound to upset some people...I'v heard of WOs that don't like it when the uniform tops and bottoms have different levels of fade, and I personally have come across the odd WO who didn't like my exposed button top being worn with my covered button pants.  :



It's true, and the Pte doesn't get a say in the matter......a Sgt can tell someone to pound sand if tops don't match bottoms, but a Pte can't.

And how many Pte's are there in comparison to NCM's?


----------



## aesop081 (19 Aug 2012)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> It's true, and the Pte doesn't get a say in the matter......a Sgt can tell someone to pound sand if tops don't match bottoms, but a Pte can't.



Sgts have bosses too. 



> And how many Pte's are there in comparison to NCM's?



Privates *are* NCMs.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (19 Aug 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Privates *are* NCMs.


Sorry, meant NCO's, my bad.  :facepalm:



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Sgts have bosses too.



And I understand that, but some sad-ass Pte is far more likely to get "noticed" for dress than a Sgt, that's all I was sayin'.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (19 Aug 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> That's bound to upset some people...I'v heard of WOs that don't like it when the uniform tops and bottoms have different levels of fade, and I personally have come across the odd WO who didn't like my exposed button top being worn with my covered button pants.  :



Well expect to see new tops, old bottoms or old tops new bottoms, black boots, brown boots.....


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (19 Aug 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Well expect to see new tops, old bottoms or old tops new bottoms, black boots, brown boots.....



Please forward this to all RSM's.


----------



## aesop081 (19 Aug 2012)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> And I understand that, but some sad-*** Pte is far more likely to get "noticed" for dress than a Sgt, that's all I was sayin'.



I don't know why, in your vast Pte(R) experience, you go the impression that Sgts do whatever they want. What i will tell you is that if any of my Sgts reported for work in anything less than an impeccable state of dress, it would be noticed very quickly as i expect them to set the example at all times. As they now better than a Pte, my reaction is also less understanding than what a Pte would get.



			
				Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> Please forward this to all RSM's.



I am also unsure where, in your vast experience, you got the impression that anyone who wears the coat of arms as rank is completely stupid and only out to enforce made-up rules.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (19 Aug 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I don't know why, in your vast Pte(R) experience, you go the impression that Sgts do whatever they want. What i will tell you is that if any of my Sgts reported for work in anything less than an impeccable state of dress, it would be noticed very quickly as i expect them to set the example at all times. As they now better than a Pte, my reaction is also less understanding than what a Pte would get.



Yes, my wealth of experience is from 2006 to 2009as a Pte(R), ( in a SVC BN of all things), so God knows I learned nothing...........I've stated this many times.
So that gets that outta the way.

All I was trying to say is that a Sgt might get a pass on "faded top, new bottoms" more that a Pte would.

You can tell me I'm wrong till you're blue in the face, but it's true.

If you as a WO don't give NCO's a pass on D&D, good on ya. I'm one of those assholes who still thinks that drill & shiny boots can contribute to good soildering.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I am also unsure where, in your vast experience, you got the impression that anyone who wears the coat of arms as rank is completely stupid and only out to enforce made-up rules.



Where was that said?


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Aug 2012)

News flash:

Most RSMs have a wealth of common sense and know that we are going to see a mish mash of CADPAT and brown/black boots.....and there isn't a lot we can do about it.


----------



## TN2IC (20 Aug 2012)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> Yes, my wealth of experience is from 2006 to 2009as a Pte(R), ( in a SVC BN of all things), so God knows I learned nothing...........I've stated this many times.



Is there a problem with MY old SVC BN?

Don't worry. We"ll take it to PM's.  ;D

Back to your regular programming.


----------



## Franko (20 Aug 2012)

Macey said:
			
		

> Is there a problem with MY old SVC BN?



op:


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (20 Aug 2012)

Macey said:
			
		

> Is there a problem with MY old SVC BN?
> 
> Don't worry. We"ll take it to PM's.  ;D
> 
> Back to your regular programming.



 ;D



			
				Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> Yes, my wealth of experience is from 2006 to 2009as a Pte(R), ( in a SVC BN of all things), so God knows I learned nothing...........I've stated this many times.



And yes, I was being facetious.......our CO made sure we were warfighters, not just REMF.


----------



## MeatheadMick (16 Sep 2012)

Currently in the field so I don't have a reference. got told in O gtp that the ECU's have been shitcanned... anyone else know anything?


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Sep 2012)

If they get canned then we'll have soldiers wearing green t-shirts and boxers soon because there's critical stock of everything.


----------



## armyvern (17 Sep 2012)

MPMick said:
			
		

> Currently in the field so I don't have a reference. got told in O gtp that the ECU's have been shitcanned... anyone else know anything?



First that I've heard of it, but that means nothing; perhaps we can hope that they've only shitcanned the gawdawful velcro on the sleeves.  ;D

I'd query at work tomorrow, but I have a parade to attend ... then get to remove the ninja star and will probably prick my finger while doing so and die from exsanguination.


----------



## MeatheadMick (17 Sep 2012)

Yeah all we were told is that PLD changes are coming but unknown to what extent. Also informed that due to contracting issues we are no longer receiving the ECU's or the new chest rig. Take this with a grain of salt as this was just passed down during daily orders as a nice to know thing. Obviously nothing is 100% certain in the wonderful world of the CF.


----------



## MeatheadMick (17 Sep 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If they get canned then we'll have soldiers wea
> ring green t-shirts and boxers soon because there's critical stock of everything.



Was the first thing many of us said. Don't forget grey socks and personal purchased rigs lol


----------



## yoman (17 Sep 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If they get canned then we'll have soldiers wearing green t-shirts and boxers soon because there's critical stock of everything.



I guess the entire CF will be dressed in NCD's then  ;D



That or we could all wear DEU's all the time...


----------



## marshall sl (17 Sep 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If they get canned then we'll have soldiers wearing green t-shirts and boxers soon because there's critical stock of everything.


  welcome to the CAF of the 70s


----------



## armyvern (17 Sep 2012)

marshall sl said:
			
		

> welcome to the CAF of the 70s



Welcome to the CF of the millenia as we rolled out the cadpat from the OG107 ...


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Sep 2012)

Awesome, I was keeping a secret hoard of pristine OG107 (including courdoroy coat) for just such an emergency!

"Wolverines!"


----------



## buzgo (17 Sep 2012)

I'm pretty sure the merx posting got extended - perhaps there were no bids on the ecu.


----------



## vonGarvin (17 Sep 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Awesome, I was keeping a secret hoard of pristine OG107 (including courdoroy coat) for just such an emergency!
> 
> "Wolverines!"


Me too!

Avenge me, boys!  AVENGE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Sep 2012)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure the merx posting got extended - perhaps there were no bids on the ecu.


Latest call for bids had an end-of-August deadline - more here.



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> Me too!
> 
> Avenge me, boys!  AVENGE ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Wookilar (17 Sep 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> "Wolverines!"



Sidebar: Can't wait to see this remake lol North Korea now if I am not mistaken.

Back to topic: None of us have heard anything on this, got my feelers out to higher in the Log food chain, see what I reel in.

(of course Vern will find out anything first lol)


----------



## MeatheadMick (17 Sep 2012)

yoman said:
			
		

> I guess the entire CF will be dressed in NCD's then  ;D
> 
> 
> 
> That or we could all wear DEU's all the time...



DEU's would not be my first choice lol. Especially in a field pl my wedge would get all covered in mud lol. Hell maybe if all my combats become obsolete I can go back to blacks


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Sep 2012)

yoman said:
			
		

> I guess the entire CF will be dressed in NCD's then  ;D



But then the Navy would need a new uniform so that people can easily identify them...  >


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Sep 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> But then the Navy would need a new uniform so that people can easily identify them...  >



They certainly have no shortage of ideas in that market :


----------



## MeatheadMick (23 Sep 2012)

So what is the ''official'' word on the ECU? Does anyone know if we're still getting them?


----------



## SheldonDVerge (24 Sep 2012)

I was doing a little research and came across that our Army is getting new Uniforms and boots. Does anyone have pictures of the new Uniforms and combat boots? I was reading that they are either going to choose Brown or tan boots.

When I did basic the boots we have now where horrible(My opinion).

Thank you if you can answer anything I said here.


----------



## MeatheadMick (24 Sep 2012)

Search the forums for the Improved Combat Uniform (ICU) or Enhanced Combat Uniform, (ECU) and the Temperate Weather (TW) Boot.

That should give you all the info you could ever want on the subjects...

Cheers


----------



## MeatheadMick (24 Sep 2012)

Here's a good look at the new uniforms

http://www.strikehold.net/2012/07/01/canadian-enhanced-combat-uniform-ecu/

and the more popular threads on the above topics

ICU/ECU
https://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101505.0.html

TW Boot
https://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/450.475.html

Scroll through the pages for images and more info

Cheers


----------



## Tollis (25 Sep 2012)

Not sure how "Official" this is but I've heard from a couple higher ups and Sup Techs here in Borden that within the next couple months we should have them.  That being said I've already seen 2 or 3 people wearing them here.


----------



## MeatheadMick (26 Sep 2012)

Interesting, since the MERX listing still had no awarded contract, unless I was looking in the wrong place... perhaps the O-Grp pass down just meant we weren't getting them anytime soon... gah the rumour mill...


----------



## Sadukar09 (26 Sep 2012)

One of the new recruits at our regiment got issued the ECUs (had the velcro shoulder pockets ala rain jacket), but no mandarin collar.


----------



## JorgSlice (26 Sep 2012)

Sadukar09 said:
			
		

> One of the new recruits at our regiment got issued the ECUs (had the velcro shoulder pockets ala rain jacket), but no mandarin collar.



The TW shirts to match the design of the AR design of uniforms? Those aren't _that_ new are they? Buddy of mine (a PRes Gun Plumber) got shirt, rain jacket with the velcro shoulder pockets almost 2 years ago now. I wasn't issued anything that fancy though


----------



## MikeL (26 Sep 2012)

Sadukar09 said:
			
		

> One of the new recruits at our regiment got issued the ECUs (had the velcro shoulder pockets ala rain jacket), but no mandarin collar.



Was that shirt issued new?  Or used?  Perhaps the last owner of that shirt had it modified?  The only combats I've seen with pockets on them were modified,  they weren't issued like that. 



			
				PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> The TW shirts to match the design of the AR design of uniforms? Those aren't _that_ new are they? Buddy of mine (a PRes Gun Plumber) got shirt, rain jacket with the velcro shoulder pockets almost 2 years ago now. I wasn't issued anything that fancy though



Are you saying his rain jacket has pockets/velcro or his combat shirt?  Pockets on rain jacket came out with the first issue of the new rain gear(minus the AF rain jacket),  then a couple years later the angled pockets with velcro on the rain jackets came out.


----------



## JorgSlice (26 Sep 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Was that shirt issued new?  Or used?  Perhaps the last owner of that shirt had it modified?  The only combats I've seen with pockets on them were modified,  they weren't issued like that.
> 
> Are you saying his rain jacket has pockets/velcro or his combat shirt?  Pockets on rain jacket came out with the first issue of the new rain gear(minus the AF rain jacket),  then a couple years later the angled pockets with velcro on the rain jackets came out.



Both Combat shirt (the outer that goes over the t-shirt) and the Rain Jacket have the angled velcro pockets in TW to match the AR pattern field uniforms and were issued to him new, in the bag.


----------



## MikeL (26 Sep 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Both Combat shirt (the outer that goes over the t-shirt) and the Rain Jacket have the angled velcro pockets in TW to match the AR pattern field uniforms and were issued to him new, in the bag.



First off,  thanks tips.. I didn't know a combat shirt went over the t-shirt  :  And I know the rain jackets have arm pockets.. like I said in my above post.. and I've had 3 sets of rain gear issued(first style with sleeve pockets,  AR raingear,  new jacket with angled pocket with velcro) so I am aware of what they look like.

Anyways, this is the first I've heard of shirts being issued with arm pockets(ECUs being issued now or something else?).  Recently I exchanged some of my combat shirts and the new ones I got were the current style(no arm pockets),  both shirts were produced April 2012.


----------



## Snaketnk (26 Sep 2012)

I've seen a couple guys with the new combats at the infantry school; you actually have to look closely to see the differences (except for the shoulders), and they have the white stitching on name-tags etc.


----------



## PuckChaser (26 Sep 2012)

It seems like there's an interim set of combats in the system, look exactly like the old ones but with pockets on the sleeves. The ECUs shouldn't look like the old ones, as the breast pockets are supposed to be flat. Seen a couple folks in Kingston with these interim sets.


----------



## Sadukar09 (26 Sep 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Was that shirt issued new?  Or used?  Perhaps the last owner of that shirt had it modified?  The only combats I've seen with pockets on them were modified,  they weren't issued like that.


The combats had no old name/SN written on them, I'm going to assume they are new.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> It seems like there's an interim set of combats in the system, look exactly like the old ones but with pockets on the sleeves. The ECUs shouldn't look like the old ones, as the breast pockets are supposed to be flat. Seen a couple folks in Kingston with these interim sets.


That makes sense.

I'll take a picture of the combats next week (if he lets me).


----------



## JorgSlice (27 Sep 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> First off,  thanks tips.. I didn't know a combat shirt went over the t-shirt  :  And I know the rain jackets have arm pockets.. like I said in my above post.. and I've had 3 sets of rain gear issued(first style with sleeve pockets,  AR raingear,  new jacket with angled pocket with velcro) so I am aware of what they look like.
> 
> Anyways, this is the first I've heard of shirts being issued with arm pockets(ECUs being issued now or something else?).  Recently I exchanged some of my combat shirts and the new ones I got were the current style(no arm pockets),  both shirts were produced April 2012.



It wasn't an attack on your intelligence or anything of that matter, I was simply just trying to clarify. Sorry if it seemed that way.

I don't know if it was a trial piece or something, but it's the same arm designs as the rain jacket. I may have seen one floating around at 746 Comms Sqn not too long ago too on a Warrant Officer. Definitely not ICU/ECU as there is no mandarin collar.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Sep 2012)

Sadukar09 said:
			
		

> I'll take a picture of the combats next week (if he lets me).



The zoomfunction on the Iphone makes seeking permission a thing of the past..


----------



## CombatDoc (27 Sep 2012)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> I've seen a couple guys with the new combats at the infantry school; you actually have to look closely to see the differences (except for the shoulders), and they have the white stitching on name-tags etc.


LGen Devlin wore the new combat shirt recently, complete with mandarin collar and enormous (certainly compared to the older size) CA flag on the sleeve.


----------



## MeatheadMick (27 Sep 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> The zoomfunction on the Iphone makes seeking permission a thing of the past..



LMAO I'm going to keep my eye on you 

I've seen the TW's with the sleeve pockets too, however the one I saw was a modified set, no chest or hip pockets. It was issued for Close Protection duties. CP seems to get ALMOST as high-speed kit as CSOR 

Interesting that the recruit got new ones in the bag, I didn't realise they were actually produced like that.  Glad to hear that some ECU's are starting to float through the system though, perhaps the O-grp pass-ons I got were just rumour-mill.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Sep 2012)

I've seen both RegF and Res members with newly issued (~late-Aug, early-Sep) TW ECUs that have the angled pocket on the upper sleeves.  Straight issue from new stock, no mods at the tailor shop.  I think there was a last batch of TWs that were produced with elements of the ICU's design, i.e. the velcro sleeve patches.  It looks like rolling up the sleeves is next to impossible, though, with the velcro -- not a fan of that, since I prefer to roll my sleeves up.

FWIW. :2c:

Cheers
G2G


----------



## MeatheadMick (30 Sep 2012)

Well if it's anything like the ECU's ( I have seen more pictures of the uniform shirts being talked about, definitely not the same CP shirts I was thinking about, also being worn with the new brown boots) you can always roll the sleeves up to the pockets... not quite the same as the old style roll, but perhaps this is just another change we're going to have to get used to lol.


----------



## BDTyre (30 Sep 2012)

MPMick said:
			
		

> Well if it's anything like the ECU's ( I have seen more pictures of the uniform shirts being talked about, definitely not the same CP shirts I was thinking about, also being worn with the new brown boots) you can always roll the sleeves up to the pockets... not quite the same as the old style roll, but perhaps this is just another change we're going to have to get used to lol.



Or not at all...KAF had numerous posters aimed at the Americans reminding that not only was the ACU not designed for the sleeves to be rolled up, but it was in fact forbidden (because of the uniform design, risk of sunburn and bug bites and the fact that like us, the uniform is part of your PPE).


----------



## Tollis (1 Oct 2012)

The ICU has a Telescoping sleeve design so they don't have to be rolled any more.  This is how it was shown on the powerpoint that is floating around on.


----------



## MeatheadMick (1 Oct 2012)

Tollis said:
			
		

> The ICU has a Telescoping sleeve design so they don't have to be rolled any more.  This is how it was shown on the powerpoint that is floating around on.



Very true, forgot about that... a telescoping sleeve design, so sliding up your sleeves like a hoody?  I can feel the shudders from the dress regs already


----------



## BDTyre (1 Oct 2012)

Tollis said:
			
		

> The ICU has a Telescoping sleeve design so they don't have to be rolled any more.  This is how it was shown on the powerpoint that is floating around on.



Fancy. I never saw that.


----------



## MeatheadMick (2 Oct 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Fancy. I never saw that.


----------



## BDTyre (2 Oct 2012)

Ah, yes. I remember seeing that once, but smaller so I couldn't really make out how the sleeves looked.


----------



## DirtyDog (3 Oct 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> It looks like rolling up the sleeves is next to impossible, though, with the velcro -- not a fan of that, since I prefer to roll my sleeves up.


Personally, and no offence to anyone I hope, but I've always considered rolled up sleeves a practice best left to support trades and reservists.


----------



## bridges (3 Oct 2012)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Personally, and no offence to anyone I hope, but I've always considered rolled up sleeves a practice best left to support trades and reservists.



As a former support trade reservist, ouch!   

I found in some situations I was more comfortable with sleeves rolled up, and others more comfortable (& protected) with them down.


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Oct 2012)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Personally, and no offence to anyone I hope, but I've always considered rolled up sleeves a practice best left to support trades and reservists.



Haha...were you around in the "Olden Days" of winter and summer dress when it was dictated that "thou shalt roll up your sleeves on May 15, and not one day before" and "thou shalt roll down your sleeves on 15 September"? And it didn't matter what the weather was like.

We didn't have much of a choice.


----------



## jollyjacktar (3 Oct 2012)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Personally, and no offence to anyone I hope, but I've always considered rolled up sleeves a practice best left to support trades and reservists.


Unless they start using Nomex as the fabric on combats, you'll still not get the better level of protection you deserve.


----------



## aesop081 (3 Oct 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Unless they start using Nomex as the fabric on combats, you'll still not get the better level of protection you deserve.



You can make combats out of Nomex all you want, without a second layer (i.e. cotton shirt, underwear, etc..) you might as well wear paper uniforms. How many infantry guys will walk around the desert wearing long underwear and shirt under their combats and all the gear ?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (3 Oct 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Unless they start using Nomex as the fabric on combats, you'll still not get the better level of protection you deserve.



Tell me again why I "deserve" a better level of protection?


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Oct 2012)

We don't just walk around the desert. We walk around the armories, the street.....and sometimes the woods and plains and the Arctic.....jungles for some.


----------



## aesop081 (3 Oct 2012)

http://www.azguard.gov/AZAASF1/quizstar/alse%20update.ppt#310,9,Slide9

Slide #19.........That's what happens when you wear Nomex without a full-lenght second layer.


----------



## navymich (3 Oct 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Haha...were you around in the "Olden Days" of winter and summer dress when it was dictated that "thou shalt roll up your sleeves on May 15, and not one day before" and "thou shalt roll down your sleeves on 15 September"? And it didn't matter what the weather was like.
> 
> We didn't have much of a choice.



My husband's current unit follows that old school thought still.  Lucky for the new fleece with the weather we've been having since the "winter" date is Oct something.

I'm very happy not to have that anymore.  I remember wearing the navy workdress years ago and freezing with the sleeves rolled up but not able to do anything about it since the calendar said sleeves up!


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Oct 2012)

The old school thought is retarded......I particulary don't like being told when I can wear a jacket or not, or have my sleeves up or down.


----------



## bridges (3 Oct 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Haha...were you around in the "Olden Days" of winter and summer dress when it was dictated that "thou shalt roll up your sleeves on May 15, and not one day before" and "thou shalt roll down your sleeves on 15 September"? And it didn't matter what the weather was like.
> 
> We didn't have much of a choice.



 :nod:   Yep.  Sounds like the heating system in the last apt building I lived in - hot-water radiators, controlled centrally.  They turned the heat on, on the day they were legally obliged to and not one day before, regardless of the weather.  

Last time I went on TD to a base in Georgia (US), it felt like a warm day so I was walking around with my combat sleeves rolled up - but everyone there had sleeves down, and jackets on.  Guess it's all relative.


----------



## Sadukar09 (3 Oct 2012)




----------



## MikeL (3 Oct 2012)

Personally,  if I were you I would have just taken a picture of the shirt laid out on a bed or something.. and not used your he-man impression photo 


Anyways,  cool to see those interim shirts,  I wonder how many were made?


----------



## fraserdw (3 Oct 2012)

He-ham?


----------



## Good2Golf (3 Oct 2012)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Personally, and no offence to anyone I hope, but I've always considered rolled up sleeves a practice best left to support trades and reservists.



I guess is spewing out 7.62mm at 3000 rds/min covering your a$$ from above is "support", then yes, I still prefer to keep my sleeves rolled up.


----------



## jollyjacktar (3 Oct 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Tell me again why I "deserve" a better level of protection?


As I recall the combats I was issued when they were green melted like nobody's business when in contact with flames.  I did not really have occasions to expose my Arid Cadpat to flames so I cannot say if they were similar in properties.  It was, one of the things that was on my mind when I was on the road over there and I did seriously think about my anti-flash gear.

Me?  I'm happy I have the benefits of Nomex uniforms especially when going into Action or Emergency Stations.  If you don't feel you need it, want it or deserve it (the protection that Nomex gives when used correctly),  then my good man by all means feel free.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Oct 2012)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Personally, and no offence to anyone I hope, but I've always considered rolled up sleeves a practice best left to support trades and reservists.



if the CoC let them the royals would all be walking around sleeves up, as tight as they could get em


----------



## Tollis (3 Oct 2012)

I personally hate sleeves up and find sleeves down looks much more professional, and is far more comfortable.  CFSEME is very much like the "old" way we go sleeves up until a certain date, however all the staff walk around sleeves down  :


----------



## dale622 (3 Oct 2012)

I have my days where I just can't help it. "<sun's out guns out" as they say.


----------



## Sadukar09 (3 Oct 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Personally,  if I were you I would have just taken a picture of the shirt laid out on a bed or something.. and not used your he-man impression photo
> 
> 
> Anyways,  cool to see those interim shirts,  I wonder how many were made?



That's my buddy.  :'(



			
				Tollis said:
			
		

> I personally hate sleeves up and find sleeves down looks much more professional, and is far more comfortable.  CFSEME is very much like the "old" way we go sleeves up until a certain date, however all the staff walk around sleeves down  :


Horribly rolled up sleeves perhaps. Do it properly and it shows off your biceps.


----------



## JorgSlice (3 Oct 2012)

bananaman said:
			
		

> I have my days where I just can't help it. "<sun's out guns out" as they say.



Awww yeeah! Haha! 

But in those hot summer days, sometimes even rolled up sleeves can make all the difference but I do agree, down looks more professional (and easier to throw on Monday morning after a few wobbly pops   )


----------



## Armymedic (3 Oct 2012)

Long sleeves should always be worn down. Hats should be worn.

Sunshine causes cancer.


----------



## MeatheadMick (3 Oct 2012)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Long sleeves should always be worn down. Hats should be worn.
> 
> Sunshine causes cancer.



So does smoking... so does that make me suicidal if I'm hacking a dart with sleeves up?


----------



## CombatDoc (3 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> How many infantry guys will walk around the desert wearing long underwear and shirt under their combats and all the gear ?


Maybe a better question to ask if how long infantry guys will walk around the desert wearing long underwear...  I suspect "not very long"  ;D


----------



## aesop081 (4 Oct 2012)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> Maybe a better question to ask if how long infantry guys will walk around the desert wearing long underwear...  I suspect "not very long"  ;D



I would say the same, thus, you can wrap them in all the Nomex you want, without a full second layer, you wont accomplish much.

Just in case my previous link did not work, this is the result of exposure to a fire (AH-64 fire during hot-pit refueling at a FARP) when wearing a Nomex flight suit and incomplete second layer:

(You can clearly see where his T-shirt sleeves ended)


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (4 Oct 2012)

I looked through the whole power point at CDN Aviator's link. 

I was not at the presentation that went with it, and don't know if CDN Aviator was, but without attending such presentation, there is no indication whatever that it was a cotton T-shirt under layer that made the difference in the picture. Personally, I read it in reverse: "This is a warning to you as to what happens if your sleeves are NOT rolled down when you fuel: see this guy, he had his sleeves rolled up".

Now this said, protective clothing does not come in one-shape-fits-all-situations and have to be adapted to the actual "threat", IMHO. As with any such situations you equip to handle the most dangerous threat first and go down the line, where you are allowed after a fashion to ignore the more insignificant threats left.

AVGAS fires, with their extreme intensity and "dry" effects are well know to cause severe disfigurations and burns - ever since WWII when fighter pilots came back in horrible condition from bailing out of planes on fire. 

Soldiers on the ground almost never face these type of fires, so their combat uniforms don't have to allow for that probability. In fact, in the desert, it is much more important for them to have a uniform that will keep them cool during the day and warm during the colder nights. If that means the uniform has a greater sensibility to AVGAS fire well, so be it. Similarly, if wearing the sleeves up makes the soldier more comfortable, then so what if there is a infinitesimal increase in his/her exposure to the extremely unlikely event of flash fire. Similarly, I feel quite secure in the Navy with my NOMEX NCD. I did not feel that way when we had our old polyester Garrison dress Uniform, especially after merely backing into a hot stove top in the galley for a fraction of a second during an inspection resulted in my jacket instantly fusing to my shirt.  

The real issue, in my mind, should be: If the Improved Combat Uniform, which is really a piece of gear aimed at the soldiers in the field, does not meet the requirements of safety of aviation crew, then should it not be up to the airforce to turn it down and ask for a task appropriate uniform of their own for flying and flight line personnel?


----------



## dimsum (4 Oct 2012)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> The real issue, in my mind, should be: If the Improved Combat Uniform, which is really a piece of gear aimed at the soldiers in the field, does not meet the requirements of safety of aviation crew,* then should it not be up to the airforce to turn it down and ask for a task appropriate uniform of their own for flying and flight line personnel?*



The ICU isn't supposed to replace flying clothing for aircrew (that's a separate program whose acronym escapes me at the moment).  You do have a valid point regarding maintenance though; sometimes they wear the old blue flying suits and sometimes they wear CADPAT.  I'm not sure why that is.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Oct 2012)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I was not at the presentation that went with it, and don't know if CDN Aviator was, but without attending such presentation, there is no indication whatever that it was a cotton T-shirt under layer that made the difference in the picture.



I received a similar presentation where this very incident was briefed and yes, the pilot's cotton t-shirt is what made the difference. If he had been wearing his 100% cotton long underwear, top and bottom, as directed, the damage seen in the photograph would not have occurred to that extent.



> AVGAS fires,



You're not going to find too many military aircraft running on AVGAS.............


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (4 Oct 2012)

Thank you for the additional info CDN Aviator.

I'm sorry if I offended by saying "AVGAS". To me any fuel you guys put in an airplane is "AVGAS". I don't particularly care about the specific individual designation or types. I only care that it can burn the back off my ship real fast if things go bad.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Oct 2012)

CEMS-ACE is the AF flying gear, and comes in both one and soon to be two-piece (CADPAT TW) fire retardant (can't recall if final material was NOMEX 3 PBi or Kermel.  Point is as CDN Aviator stated, the non-synthetic second layer is require to thermally isolate the skin from the non-burning but very hot FR outer layer.  Not any second layer is okay, that's why UnderArmor shirts were prohibited in AFG, under any type of clothing, FR or non-FR, they'd melt to skin in a heart beat. Either natural fibers like cotton or wool or specialized Wicking synthetic-FR like DriFire(tm) is what should be worn underneath any outer layer where FR qualities are required.

Regards
G2G


----------



## PanaEng (4 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I would say the same, thus, you can wrap them in all the Nomex you want, without a full second layer, you wont accomplish much.
> 
> Just in case my previous link did not work, this is the result of exposure to a fire (AH-64 fire during hot-pit refueling at a FARP) when wearing a Nomex flight suit and incomplete second layer:
> 
> (You can clearly see where his T-shirt sleeves ended)


Caption says: Sleeves down when refueling.
Meaning he had his nomex sleves, if he was wearing it, rolled up. 
Slide 14 list a few characteristics of Nomex including that it does not support combustion, will not melt  and low heat conduction.
cotton under layer will be more comfortable and help insulate but Nomex over skin is better than no Nomex. Untreated cotton can burn pretty quickly and faster if it is saturated with fumes.
Slide 16 shows the nomex stopping the melted nylon which would have made cotton ignite more readily.
Slide 26 shows another instance where the nomex material performed as expected over other non-approved material.

What I find interesting is slide 17 showing that Goretex has some protection from flame/flash.

Thanks for the ppt.

CHIMO!


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Oct 2012)

Don't forget steam burns from fire protective clothing that is water soaked and exposed to very high heat.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Oct 2012)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Caption says: Sleeves down when refueling.



The caption has nothing to do with the AH-64 incident. It was to reinforce the need to wear "sleeves down" with the newer 2-peice flying ACU.



> Meaning he had his nomex sleves, if he was wearing it, rolled up.



The pilot in question was wearing the single-peice aviator overall, no sleeves rolled up. The extent of the injury was caused by not having the second layer. I had the briefing and read the investigation report.



> Nomex over skin is better than no Nomex.



Barely.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Oct 2012)

:argument:


----------



## PanaEng (5 Oct 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> :argument:


Really? what does that add to the debate?

CA and I seem to be arguing a similar thing but from diff slants: The need for FULL protective gear.


----------



## PanaEng (5 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Barely.


Bottom line is that safety gear is designed in a certain way to be effective and it should be worn that way.

As for combats, it would suck if I had to wear cotton underneath the combat shirt.  :camo:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Oct 2012)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Really? what does that add to the debate?
> 
> CA and I seem to be arguing a similar thing but from diff slants: The need for FULL protective gear.



Exactly. So why so hard to reach an agreement?


----------



## Gunner98 (5 Oct 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The old school thought is retarded......I particulary don't like being told when I can wear a jacket or not, or have my sleeves up or down.



Agreed, I can remember a few parades with sleeves up with snow falling around us.


----------



## DirtyDog (7 Oct 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> if the CoC let them the royals would all be walking around sleeves up, as tight as they could get em


True enough.  I remember being told the dates we had to be sleeves or or sleeves down and then it became a rule that sleeves were down all the time.  That RSM moved on and it sort of became unofficial that sleeves down was what infanteers did, field or garrison.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Oct 2012)

That is the rule in my unit. Sleeves down all the time.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Oct 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> That is the rule in my unit. Sleeves down all the time.



Here's one of your fugitives. Careful, he looks a bit tense  ;D


----------



## MeatheadMick (8 Oct 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Here's one of your fugitives. Careful, he looks a bit tense  ;D



I was going to say he looks "armed"


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Oct 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> That is the rule in my unit. Sleeves down all the time.



No offense but I'm glad I'm not in your unit then.  I like being able to think for myself...


----------



## TN2IC (8 Oct 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No offensive but I'm glad I'm not in your unit then.  I like being able to think for myself...



Remedial training for you then! Quick run, before the white van gets you.  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Oct 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No offensive but I'm glad I'm not in your unit then.  I like being able to think for myself...



Ok you got me on that one....however in the middle of winter and people walking around with their sleeves up is daft.
Plus, sleeves down prevents sunburn, and prevents nasty bugs like mosquitoes from biting exposed skin.

Plus, in the field we go sleeves down anyways.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Oct 2012)

I find the "only wogs wear sleeves up" mantra kinda elitist myself.

In the summer I like wearing my sleeves up because I find walking around in civies after work and on weekends with tanned hands neck and face with noticably  whiter arms looks goofy.


----------



## Maxadia (9 Oct 2012)

Since when did wearing a uniform become something that was done according to one's own taste?


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Oct 2012)

I'm pretty sure no one here is debating whether to wear a uniform or not.

I'm guessing you mean in the manner in which a uniform is worn- in this case ones sleeves.

Wasn't there a canforgen or something on it a while back about it being the soldiers discretion? (Less parades)


----------



## Maxadia (9 Oct 2012)

Sorry OZ, you're correct - I meant the method of wearing the uniform, not whether to actually wear it or not.

It's funny that recruits are taught in basic to standardize EVERYTHING, but then get to see members walking around with some sleeves rolled up, some not, some with issue combat boots, some getting away with others, etc.

Lead by example, right?


----------



## 2 Cdo (9 Oct 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The old school thought is retarded......I particulary don't like being told when I can wear a jacket or not, or have my sleeves up or down.



I remember a certain RSM that said if it was cold enough for a jacket it was cold enough for a toque, and said toque was to be worn covering the ears. ;D


----------



## fraserdw (9 Oct 2012)

As a young soldier we were always told that if you wear the combat coat, you wear the combat gloves.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (9 Oct 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Sorry OZ, you're correct - I meant the method of wearing the uniform, not whether to actually wear it or not.
> 
> It's funny that recruits are taught in basic to standardize EVERYTHING, but then get to see members walking around with some sleeves rolled up, some not, some with issue combat boots, some getting away with others, etc.
> 
> Lead by example, right?



Yes, but the reason for that is actually to instill teamwork, attention to detail, and discpline, to what otherwise would be a mob of civvies. Is there really any need for such stringent adherence to such things in an operational army?


----------



## aesop081 (9 Oct 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Lead by example, right?




If I wear CADPAT and the policy is that I can have my sleeves up or down, my choice, then I am following policy and thus, leading by example.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If I wear CADPAT and the policy is that I can have my sleeves up or down, my choice, then I am following policy and thus, leading by example.




 :goodpost:

:nod:


----------



## dapaterson (9 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If I wear CADPAT and the policy is that I can have my sleeves up or down, my choice, then I am following policy and thus, leading by example.



Hence why you keep one sleeve up and one down - so you're an example to everyone.   >


----------



## Maxadia (9 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If I wear CADPAT and the policy is that I can have my sleeves up or down, my choice, then I am following policy and thus, leading by example.



Well, if that is the policy (and I for one don't know, but obviously you are stating there is), then yes, you are following the policy.


My opinion is that it looks a lot more haphazard when it's not uniform (no pun intended )




			
				Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Yes, but the reason for that is actually to instill teamwork, attention to detail, and discpline, to what otherwise would be a mob of civvies. Is there really any need for such stringent adherence to such things in an operational army?



That depends...do you want to see pant legs with bloused/unbloused an option as well?  Wear the beret with the badge on either side, as you feel like it? Once could go on and on....both ways.


----------



## MikeL (9 Oct 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> That depends...do you want to see pant legs with bloused/unbloused an option as well?  Wear the beret with the badge on either side, as you feel like it? Once could go on and on....both ways.



 :

Does it annoy you that much seeing CF pers with both sleeves up and down?  I guess it must also be bad seeing CF pers wearing different capbadges and different beret colours.... should we all have the same haircuts as well? 

 Just because your only experience with the CF is Basic Training(in the past,  and going again on basic) doesn't mean units have to run like a course with every member looking exactly the same.  

Policy is sleeves up or down is members choice,  with the exception of parades(CoC call).  With the units I've been with,  majority(if not all) of pers have sleeves down year round, so it's like like every second person you will is different.  Dress regs state capbadge is over left eye, etc...  Don't go too extreme/unrealistic here.


----------



## Maxadia (9 Oct 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Policy is sleeves up or down is members choice,  with the exception of parades(CoC call).  Dress regs state capbadge is over left eye,  pants bloused in garrison, etc...  Don't go too extreme/unrealistic here.



Doesn't bother me that much, really.  I was responding more to Towards_the_gap's comment:


> Is there really any need for such stringent adherence to such things in an operational army?



...basically pointing out that we DO already have guidelines to follow.  To me, I just find it curious that they have left the sleeves to be member's choice.  

And you're right, my experience is limited.  However, when I hear of "dress issues" on here every now and then, I do see things like this being a tipping point.


----------



## Journeyman (9 Oct 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> To me, I just find it curious that they have left the sleeves to be member's choice.


Actually, you'll find that there's all kinds of chaos beneath the calm surface of uniformity. It's often left to us whether we wear Boots, Clumsy Combat Overboots, or rain jackets, or which colour lens in our BEW. Last week, some guys were wearing the long-sleeve, zip collar undershirt -- some wearing normal t-shirts.  It's madness.


I'm only amazed we don't hear of more RCR RSMs spontaneously combusting.  :nod:


----------



## 2 Cdo (9 Oct 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm only amazed we don't hear of more RCR RSMs spontaneously combusting.  :nod:



 :rofl:


----------



## MeatheadMick (9 Oct 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm only amazed we don't hear of more RCR RSMs spontaneously combusting.  :nod:



 :goodpost:

Seems this topic is definitely not about ICU's anymore   God bless tangents


----------



## aesop081 (9 Oct 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> my experience is limited.



That's all you needed to say.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (9 Oct 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Dress regs state capbadge is over left eye,  pants bloused in garrison, etc...  Don't go too extreme/unrealistic here.



Actually, the pant blousing (aside from MP uniforms) is in no dress reg I have read...

"Trousers, black, with side cargo pockets,
worn straight leg style and not bloused."


----------



## MikeL (9 Oct 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Actually, the pant blousing (aside from MP uniforms) is in no dress reg I have read...
> 
> "Trousers, black, with side cargo pockets,
> worn straight leg style and not bloused."



Ack,  my mistake,  I always thought it was in the dress regs.


----------



## MeatheadMick (9 Oct 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Actually, the pant blousing (aside from MP uniforms) is in no dress reg I have read...
> 
> "Trousers, black, with side cargo pockets,
> worn straight leg style and not bloused."



They actually tried blousing them in 2010.... thankfully the 'trial' didn't go very well... we all looked ridiculous...


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (9 Oct 2012)

Ah, but uniformity of uniform can also be your friend.

When I was a naval cadet, we were always one platoon of A company whenever fleet school held its Friday parade.

One week, we all switched our berets to have our badge over the right eye. The inspecting officer went right by without taking any notice of deficiency in our ranks.

He then proceeded to 2 platoon and  immediately rounded on the first seaman for wearing his cap badge on the wrong side ...

The one hour of extra drill was actually worth it.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (9 Oct 2012)

Thats to bad I wish the MPs bloused, I think it looks sharp!

bout the ICU, i'm not bothering to ask any questions, just waiting out until they are issued, same with brown boots, which I have heard on good authority are already being issued.


----------



## Ostrozac (9 Oct 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Ack,  my mistake,  I always thought it was in the dress regs.



To the best of my knowledge, the blousing of combat trousers has never actually made it into written orders -- which is perhaps the reason why we have to buy our boot bands at CANEX. And that means that those boot bands are non-issued kit!


----------



## Nfld Sapper (9 Oct 2012)

MrBlue said:
			
		

> Thats to bad I wish the MPs bloused, I think it looks sharp!
> 
> bout the ICU, i'm not bothering to ask any questions, just waiting out until they are issued, same with brown boots, which I have heard on good authority are already being issued.



Brown boots are still an interm boot AFAIK....they fall apart too easy while in garrison.


----------



## garb811 (9 Oct 2012)

MPMick said:
			
		

> They actually tried blousing them in 2010.... thankfully the 'trial' didn't go very well... we all looked ridiculous...


(un?)Fortunately, that indignity was provided to only a select few bases.



			
				MrBlue said:
			
		

> Thats to bad I wish the MPs bloused, I think it looks sharp!


If the pants are designed to be bloused, or at least made with a fabric which is flexible, it can look good. When the pants aren't, such as the current MPOPD pants, you look like a bag of poo.


----------



## MeatheadMick (9 Oct 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Brown boots are still an interm boot AFAIK....they fall apart too easy while in garrison.



They're Boulet... what did you expect?



			
				MrBlue said:
			
		

> Thats to bad I wish the MPs bloused, I think it looks sharp!
> 
> bout the ICU, i'm not bothering to ask any questions, just waiting out until they are issued, same with brown boots, which I have heard on good authority are already being issued.



Negative, it looked dumb.  The OPD pants, (which are the old style NCD pants) are far too baggy to blouse... as well, it looked far too "military". Being "Military" Police you would think that wouldn't necessarily be a concern, however a lot of our dealings, especially during traffic stops, are with civilians. It was not uncommon to hear how our look changed from Police to Gestapo. When trying to portray a professional police image, something as small as the bloused pants can come off aggressive, and needlessly escalate a situation.

That was the 'official' answer given on feedback... but the reality of it was, it just looked stupid. The trial was supposed to last a year; it lasted about a month at the CFMPA, and not much longer at other bases.


----------



## MeatheadMick (9 Oct 2012)

garb811 said:
			
		

> (un?)Fortunately, that indignity was provided to only a select few bases.
> If the pants are designed to be bloused, or at least made with a fabric which is flexible, it can look good. When the pants aren't, such as the current MPOPD pants, you look like a bag of poo.



Consider yourself lucky Garb.  Many members did not even do it, because indeed... it looked like poo.


----------



## BDTyre (11 Oct 2012)

It looks like a few guy in my regiment have been issued the new "operational style" TW tunic. As others have pointed out, this is essentially a TW version of the later gen CADPAT arid tunic (as far as I know, those first showed up late 2009). In the cases of both troops, these are brand-new, out of the bag garments. I'm not sure if this is an iterim while they bring in the E/ICU or something that started at the same time as the AR tunic and is now finally trickling in to the system.


----------



## MeatheadMick (11 Oct 2012)

I haven't seen any of the newer style shirts out west (Edmonton). From the majority of the posters on the forum and from Facebook stalking, I've noticed the majority of the issued newer shirts as well as the brown boots are being issued out east at the time being.


----------



## Tollis (11 Oct 2012)

Has anyone else noticed the HUGE flags we get to wear on the ICU.  They are about the same size as the American flags on their ACU's


----------



## BDTyre (13 Oct 2012)

MPMick said:
			
		

> I haven't seen any of the newer style shirts out west (Edmonton). From the majority of the posters on the forum and from Facebook stalking, I've noticed the majority of the issued newer shirts as well as the brown boots are being issued out east at the time being.



I'm curious as to where our supply is coming from, as ASU Chilliwack is closing and at some point we'll be drawing kit from Edmonton (if we aren't already). So the shirts are somewhere out here.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (13 Oct 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to where our supply is coming from, as ASU Chilliwack is closing and at some point we'll be drawing kit from Edmonton (if we aren't already). So the shirts are somewhere out here.



Nope.  You will be drawing your kit from 39 Svc Bn.


----------



## BDTyre (13 Oct 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Nope.  You will be drawing your kit from 39 Svc Bn.



Physically yes, the recruits will be getting it from 39 Svc Bn, but as I understood it all stock is shipped to there from stores in Edmonton. We've been warned to expect up to a month for exchanges.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (13 Oct 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Physically yes, the recruits will be getting it from 39 Svc Bn, but as I understood it all stock is shipped to there from stores in Edmonton. We've been warned to expect up to a month for exchanges.



Hmm.  That was not the plan last time I heard.  Let me do some digging.


----------



## armyvern (13 Oct 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Brown boots are still an interm boot AFAIK....they fall apart too easy while in garrison.



We've got a set here that have known their owner for 5 months. 2 X WUs and 2 X BFTs ... and they are trashed.


----------



## armyvern (13 Oct 2012)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Physically yes, the recruits will be getting it from 39 Svc Bn, but as I understood it all stock is shipped to there from stores in Edmonton. We've been warned to expect up to a month for exchanges.



7 CFSD Edmonton ... the Depot, not base clothing stores.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (13 Oct 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We've got a set here that have known their owner for 5 months. 2 X WUs and 2 X BFTs ... and they are trashed.



And I have seen them fall apart in as little as 2 weeks garrison use.....

Another product brought to you by the lowest bidder.....


----------



## buzgo (13 Oct 2012)

I think I have the record, 5 days - no field.


----------



## MikeL (13 Oct 2012)

Tollis said:
			
		

> Has anyone else noticed the HUGE flags we get to wear on the ICU.  They are about the same size as the American flags on their ACU's



Yea,  I noticed that in the powerpoint on the uniform,  the large 2x4inch flag on the right arm.  


Not a big fan of velcro everything on that uniform(no more buttons for pockets,  all velcro, etc).  Plus the massive velcro patches on the sleeve pockets,  IMO we should just keep it simple like on the USMC Marpat uniforms and have a 2x2inch square on the pocket flap for a IR square.  Not sure how I feel about the zippers on sleeve and chest pockets,  I liked the velcro closure on the sleeve pockets(ie AR combats/Afghanistan pocket mod).  


Does anyone know if the buttons going down the front of the combat shirt were removed and replaced with a zipper or velcro?  Seems like the new combats are anti buttons.  I am hoping those buttons will at least remain.


----------



## WLSC (13 Oct 2012)

Skeletor



> Does anyone know if the buttons going down the front of the combat shirt were removed and replaced with a zipper or velcro?  Seems like the new combats are anti buttons.  I am hoping those buttons will at least remain.



Email me, I have the PDF doc with all the détails.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Oct 2012)

Do the 'new' combat shirts that some people are getting issued with pockets on the sleeves have velcro on the pockets?


----------



## fraserdw (18 Oct 2012)

Yes, velcro


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Oct 2012)

Thank you.


----------



## MikeL (19 Oct 2012)

FusMR said:
			
		

> Skeletor
> 
> Email me, I have the PDF doc with all the détails.




I have the pdf as well(unless there is a more recent one released?) maybe I'm missing it,  but I don't recall seeing any mention of if the front buttons are still on or if it has been replaced by something else.


----------



## WLSC (20 Oct 2012)

Last I heard, yep, buttons on front.  I also heard that the collar was to low on the neck.  It give the impression to be pull forward.  But to take with a big grain of salt...


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Oct 2012)

We have a winner - this from the DND Info-machine:


> The Honourable Bernard Valcourt, Associate Minister of National Defence and Minister of State (Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency) (La Francophonie) and the Honourable Rona Ambrose, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for Status of Women, today announced that the Government of Canada awarded a contract valued at $8.5 million to Peerless Garments, of Winnipeg, Manitoba, for the procurement of enhanced combat uniforms for the Canadian Forces (CF).
> 
> (....)
> 
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Oct 2012)

Nice, good for that company who has been making our stuff for years.


----------



## fraserdw (22 Oct 2012)

Concur, I got the sleath suit, excellent rain suit!


----------



## PuckChaser (22 Oct 2012)

45,000 complete uniforms? They're missing a zero.

Thankfully the contract is at least approved, and guys wearing CADPAT lingerie can have it replaced.


----------



## MeatheadMick (27 Oct 2012)

Excellent news! Here's hoping the R2HR units get them issued soon... another set of combats, (replaced very recently) fell victim to Maple Lion 2012... running out of combats in good repair and stores is running out of viable sizes to replace with.


----------



## BDTyre (29 Oct 2012)

MPMick said:
			
		

> Excellent news! Here's hoping the R2HR units get them issued soon... another set of combats, (replaced very recently) fell victim to Maple Lion 2012... running out of combats in good repair and stores is running out of viable sizes to replace with.



Yep...my field set is gettinng to a pretty sad state, even for a field set and the second set isn't too far behind it. I've seen lots of the new/interim shirts around, but no one ever seems to have new pants.


----------



## ArmyRick (30 Oct 2012)

If you really need new pant sizes, apparently if you gain a huge amount of weight (not muscle) and have a ridicolous large size, they have those enormous sizes in stock. Sorry, best suggestion I could come up with.


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Oct 2012)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> If you really need new pant sizes, apparently if you gain a huge amount of weight (not muscle) and have a ridicolous large size, they have those enormous sizes in stock. Sorry, best suggestion I could come up with.



Yes I suppose that IS a Course of Action. Not an ideal one but......


----------



## McG (30 Oct 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> 45,000 complete uniforms? They're missing a zero.


Probably not.  As the initial plan was stated, this is an O&M purchase to put replacement & initial issue uniforms on supply shelves.  If your current issued combat uniform is still in good condition, you will continue to wear it and it will not be exchanged.  Exceptions will/may be made for pers deploying on operations in a temperate uniform.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2013)

Bump with the latest from the Info-machine:


> After 18 months of testing and operational user feedback, production has begun on the Enhanced Combat Uniform for Canadian soldiers.
> 
> This product improvement to the combat uniforms includes more than 20 changes which will allow for greater comfort, enhanced protection and greater integration with personal protective equipment, allowing soldiers to more effectively train and perform their duties while deployed.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Jan 2013)

"• a flexible waist for improved fit."

 :cheers:


----------



## buzgo (23 Jan 2013)

"Getting it in batches will allow us to make new improvements based on feedback we get."

Here's some feedback - should have contracted with Crye Precision....


----------



## Matt_Fisher (23 Jan 2013)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> "Getting it in batches will allow us to make new improvements based on feedback we get."
> 
> Here's some feedback - should have contracted with Crye Precision....



And have 24-36 month lead times with Crye, only to have the uniforms fall apart once they start being used in the field?
http://kitup.military.com/2011/08/marsoc-crye-uniforms-not-holding-up.html
http://kitup.military.com/2011/09/aussies-facing-same-pant-problems.html


----------



## MikeL (23 Jan 2013)

I see they are still going ahead with the 2x large Canadian flags on the uniform.

1 large flag,  sure;  but two looks a bit weird IMO.


----------



## dale622 (23 Jan 2013)

Any word on when these are supposed to start hitting the stock shelves? My combats aren't going to last much longer.


----------



## Snaketnk (23 Jan 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I see they are still going ahead with the 2x large Canadian flags on the uniform.
> 
> 1 large flag,  sure;  but two looks a bit weird IMO.



I think it'd be really cool if they decided to switch out one of the flags with a unit patch... God forbid you instil a little pride in your units.


----------



## buzgo (23 Jan 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> And have 24-36 month lead times with Crye, only to have the uniforms fall apart once they start being used in the field?
> http://kitup.military.com/2011/08/marsoc-crye-uniforms-not-holding-up.html
> http://kitup.military.com/2011/09/aussies-facing-same-pant-problems.html



That was a while back, i thought that they had resolved the issues?

I really want to see Arc'teryx doing something for us...


----------



## MikeL (23 Jan 2013)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> I think it'd be really cool if they decided to switch out one of the flags with a unit patch... God forbid you instil a little pride in your units.


I've heard of some Reserve units having patches made up and worn in the field,  might be as close as anyone gets in regards to unit patches - for awhile anyways.




			
				signalsguy said:
			
		

> I really want to see Arc'teryx doing something for us...



Probably going too have to get into CANSOF too use Arc'teryx.


----------



## Zoomie (23 Jan 2013)

Hopefully they issue them to the RCAF first.


----------



## brihard (23 Jan 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I've heard of some Reserve units having patches made up and worn in the field,  might be as close as anyone gets in regards to unit patches - for awhile anyways.



I suspect that was ruled to have gotten a bit out of hand... It's faded in my area, and in my unit's (overall pretty reasonable) operational dress standards morale patches are one of the things that are unequivocally verboten.


----------



## PuckChaser (23 Jan 2013)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Hopefully they issue them to the RCAF first.





			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> "• a flexible waist for improved fit."
> 
> :cheers:



Yep, RCAF might need them first...  >


----------



## McG (23 Jan 2013)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> I think it'd be really cool if they decided to switch out one of the flags with a unit patch...


It is the right spot for a Bde patch.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (24 Jan 2013)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> That was a while back, i thought that they had resolved the issues?
> 
> I really want to see Arc'teryx doing something for us...



Arc'teryx was approached by the Clothe The Soldier project on several occasions to do R&D projects for load carriage (and possibly clothing), but DND wanted to own all the intellectual property and designs that Arc'teryx would be developing.  As such, Arc'teryx declined as they didn't want to have their designs (i.e. hip belt foam lamination schematics, pattern grading, etc.) and technical data packages in the public domain (i.e. MERX) where their competitors could access them.

Let's say if the CFs could buy commercial off the shelf clothing from a manufacturer like Arc'teryx, where is the CF going to get the money to pay for Arc'teryx type clothing and equipment for the 'green Army' given that Arc'teryx stuff is premium because they use industry leading materials and construction techniques because it's part of their brand positioning to be the most expensive stuff out there.

_'Perfect is the enemy of Good Enough_' - Voltaire

As Skeletor mentioned, if you want to be issued Arc'teryx, go for CANSOFCOM selection.

Cheers,

Matt


----------



## JorgSlice (24 Jan 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> And where is the CF going to get the money to pay for Arc'teryx type clothing and equipment for the 'green Army'?
> 
> As Skeletor mentioned, if you want to be issued Arc'teryx, go for CANSOFCOM selection.
> 
> ...



They could see uniforming woes and want to do good and OFFER something to the CF out of the goodness of their heart, ya know.  :sarcasm:


----------



## chadk (12 Mar 2013)

In reading some of these postings I see talk about a new uniform for the Navy?  It's been floating around that we are getting away from the black pants and blue shirts and going to new CATPAT style uniforms.  I have looked online ( google ) and have found many references to the Armys new uniforms but as of yet have not been able to for curiousity sake verify the issue of new uniforms for Navy side.  Can anyone comment?


----------



## Matt_Fisher (12 Mar 2013)

chadk said:
			
		

> In reading some of these postings I see talk about a new uniform for the Navy?  It's been floating around that we are getting away from the black pants and blue shirts and going to new CATPAT style uniforms.  I have looked online ( google ) and have found many references to the Armys new uniforms but as of yet have not been able to for curiousity sake verify the issue of new uniforms for Navy side.  Can anyone comment?



Information on the Navy uniform can be seen here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/79706.0.html


----------



## DirtyDog (15 Mar 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Arc'teryx was approached by the Clothe The Soldier project on several occasions to do R&D projects for load carriage (and possibly clothing), but DND wanted to own all the intellectual property and designs that Arc'teryx would be developing.  As such, Arc'teryx declined as they didn't want to have their designs (i.e. hip belt foam lamination schematics, pattern grading, etc.) and technical data packages in the public domain (i.e. MERX) where their competitors could access them.
> 
> Let's say if the CFs could buy commercial off the shelf clothing from a manufacturer like Arc'teryx, where is the CF going to get the money to pay for Arc'teryx type clothing and equipment for the 'green Army' given that Arc'teryx stuff is premium because they use industry leading materials and construction techniques because it's part of their brand positioning to be the most expensive stuff out there.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, however I'm inclined to think the money spent on the CTS ruck project as a whole could have easily covered the cost of an off the shelf Arc'teryx buy.


----------



## MikeL (15 Mar 2013)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Fair enough, however I'm inclined to think the money spent on the CTS ruck project as a whole could have easily covered the cost of an off the shelf Arc'teryx buy.




Are you saying we should have gone with an Arc'teryx ruck?  

The USMC went with an Arc'teryx designed(?) ruck,  reading the comments/reviews it seems like it was a poor choice and is currently being replaced.



> The Corps has sought to replace the ILBE for more than a year after grunts graded it “completely unacceptable” in a recent survey. They said it doesn’t fit well on top of body armor and causes chaffing and pain in the back, knees and shoulders.


http://marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/12/marine-ILBE-pack-replacement-120810w/


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Mar 2013)

Thats the problem with name dropping, see: GP boots. Troops wanted Vibram soles, they got heavy vibram soles on heavier boots.


----------



## buzgo (15 Mar 2013)

ILBE was designed by Arc'teryx but manufactured by Propper. From what I've seen and read it is using an alpine style suspension, not optimized for armour wear. You'd have to get a hold of the SOR or equivalent to see what the USMC asked for and see if thats what they got.

The Army is going to be doing their own pack replacement project in the near future, unless the funding is axed. Its part of the Soldier System project, they are calling it the Modular Pack System.

http://www.materiel.forces.gc.ca/en/ss-dbwd.page


The LOI went out last year, its discussed here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106157.0


----------



## The_Falcon (15 Mar 2013)

signalsguy said:
			
		

> ILBE was designed by Arc'teryx but manufactured by Propper. From what I've seen and read it is using an alpine style suspension, not optimized for armour wear. You'd have to get a hold of the SOR or equivalent to see what the USMC asked for and see if thats what they got.
> 
> The Army is going to be doing their own pack replacement project in the near future, unless the funding is axed. Its part of the Soldier System project, they are calling it the Modular Pack System.
> 
> ...



I see they are also looking for new body armour, maybe this time, the two groups can talk to each other and make sure they are compatible with each other.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> maybe this time, the two groups can talk to each other and make sure they are compatible with each other.



Silly goose, been sipping antifreeze or something? ;D


----------



## Matt_Fisher (15 Mar 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I see they are also looking for new body armour, maybe this time, the two groups can talk to each other and make sure they are compatible with each other.



Are you talking about the CFs or the USMC looking for new body armour?


----------



## The_Falcon (16 Mar 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Are you talking about the CFs or the USMC looking for new body armour?



CF it was in that link Sig Guy posted



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Silly goose, been sipping antifreeze or something? ;D



Not that I know of, but all the water here does come in plastic bottles........ :dunno:


----------



## a_majoor (16 Mar 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> It is the right spot for a Bde patch.



And now Division patches as well......


----------



## slayer/raptor (6 Apr 2013)

I guess the uniform is starting to roll out, anyone see these at their bases yet?

http://everitas.rmcclub.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LGen-Devlin-Comd-Canadian-Army.jpg


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Apr 2013)

That is one large flag.  Also it seems there is a new coloured thread for name taps and rank slip-ons.


----------



## MikeL (6 Apr 2013)

Yea,  that would be the high visibility name tape and rank patch the .ppt talked about.


I wonder how long until someone try's to wear their large IR flag on this uniform in garrison like I see numerous people do on the rain jackets.


----------



## Smirnoff123 (6 Apr 2013)

Theres a few guys in my unit that have been issued the new uniform now.


----------



## slayer/raptor (6 Apr 2013)

CGR on which base do you work?


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Apr 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> I guess the uniform is starting to roll out, anyone see these at their bases yet?
> 
> http://everitas.rmcclub.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LGen-Devlin-Comd-Canadian-Army.jpg



Some troops in field units don't have their entitlement of pants, but CA needs to have the uniform first!  :


----------



## Smirnoff123 (6 Apr 2013)

Slayer - I am a reservist. However, I also a handful of guys wearing them in Pet.


----------



## PiperDown (6 Apr 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Some troops in field units don't have their entitlement of pants, but CA needs to have the uniform first!  :



Or like many examples in the past, the RCAF guys posted to base positions will have the uniform before CA field units.


----------



## slayer/raptor (6 Apr 2013)

Does anyone know if it is made from the same crappy material as the ones we have now?


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Apr 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if it is made from the same crappy material as the ones we have now?



Lowest bidder, I'd assume yes.


----------



## MJP (6 Apr 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Lowest bidder, I'd assume yes.



Lowest compliant bidder...big difference.


----------



## havok_2002 (6 Apr 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> I guess the uniform is starting to roll out, anyone see these at their bases yet?
> 
> http://everitas.rmcclub.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LGen-Devlin-Comd-Canadian-Army.jpg



That looks like the transitional combat shirt.  The only difference is the sleeve pockets with velcro.  I got issued one of them last week.  Looking forward to getting the NEW uni with the mandarin collar, and trousers with built-in boot bands.


----------



## havok_2002 (6 Apr 2013)

HavoK said:
			
		

> That's the transitional combat shirt.  The only difference is the sleeve pockets with velcro.  I got issued one of them last week.  The real uniform upgrade should be when we get the NEW uni with the mandarin collar, and trousers with built-in boot bands.


----------



## slayer/raptor (6 Apr 2013)

Its not, here is another picture: http://everitas.rmcclub.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/IMGP5776-1.jpg

If you zoom in you see the pockets on the shirt are different and the rank flap is flat.


----------



## MikeL (6 Apr 2013)

Yea,  looks like the new combats/ECUs.  Like slayer/raptor pointed out you can see the pockets are the new flat kinds,  collar looks different as well the epaulette is gone as it is now just velcro with a rank patch we will stick on.  Plus the transitional combats don't come with the large Canadian flag,  and CADPAT patches to cover the unused velcro.


----------



## SeR (6 Apr 2013)

The new tunic looks as if it's a mandarin collar that's been folded down like the traditional one.


----------



## MikeL (6 Apr 2013)

SeR said:
			
		

> The new tunic looks as if it's a mandarin collar that's been folded down like the traditional one.



In the .ppt presentation, the collar is folded down in the majority of photos.  I would assume garrison is down,  and in the field you can have it up when in FFO if you want.  AFAIK the whole point of the mandarin collar for comfort thing(prevent rubbing on the neck, etc) when wearing the FPV.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Apr 2013)

SeR said:
			
		

> The new tunic looks as if it's a mandarin collar that's been folded down like the traditional one.



Of course, and this will be strictly enforced. Collars must be down in garrison. No toques with rain jackets, same ol important O-group points.


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Apr 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Of course, and this will be strictly enforced. Collars must be down in garrison. No toques with rain jackets, same ol important O-group points.



But you're allowed to wear a daypack on one shoulder, as long as its the left one...


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Apr 2013)

Just wondering: will we ever go to multi-cam, just like the grown ups  ;D


----------



## Matt_Fisher (8 Apr 2013)

So what's the protocol on the new high visibility name tapes and rank insignia?  I notice the CAC wearing both the name tape and rank insignia, but the Army RSM has mixed accoutrements.

Is high vis only for garrison, while the subdued for field/operational wear?


----------



## Smirnoff123 (8 Apr 2013)

I am really liking the new colour for the rank insignia's, I find it hard to distinguish the current ones.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (8 Apr 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I find the "only wogs wear sleeves up" mantra kinda elitist myself.



Troops on extra-curricular "juice de banan", sleeves up for the gunshow.
It's best.


----------



## MikeL (8 Apr 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> So what's the protocol on the new high visibility name tapes and rank insignia? .... Is high vis only for garrison, while the subdued for field/operational wear?



I've seen two different power points(latest being 31 Jan 12) about the new uniform;  I don't recall any mention of wearing high vis(called improved visibility  velcro name/rank in .ppt) for garrison and a subdued version for field.  Only the high visibility style was mentioned and shown.  Same with the flag,  only the red/white flag was shown,  no green version.  But then again,  we do have the IR flag patch that is the same size as this red/white one.



			
				Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I notice the CAC wearing both the name tape and rank insignia, but the Army RSM has mixed accoutrements.



Perhaps the RSM's new name tapes haven't arrived yet?


----------



## dapaterson (8 Apr 2013)

So we've invested millions to acquire uniforms with improved camouflage.

And now we're spending more money to get rank and name identifiers that are high visiblity.

"Special Kind Of Stupid" does not begin to describe this


#AtLeastIt'sEasierToFindCentreOfMass


----------



## MikeL (8 Apr 2013)

IMO the improved visibility name and rank isn't a issue for field use as the tac vest and/or FPV would cover them(if the name and rank are worn).


----------



## dapaterson (8 Apr 2013)

We've already got a uniform for garrison wear that has high visibility ranks & nametags.  It's called the DEU.

Not appropriate if you're working on the shop floor, but plenty adequate for sitting around the office type jobs.


----------



## Jammer (8 Apr 2013)

I'll put this one to bed. 

The high vis stuff is for formation comd staff posns....sayeth th oracle @ Div HQ


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Apr 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> We've already got a uniform for garrison wear that has high visibility ranks & nametags.  It's called the DEU.
> 
> Not appropriate if you're working on the shop floor, but plenty adequate for sitting around the office type jobs.



Agreed.


----------



## dapaterson (8 Apr 2013)

Jammer said:
			
		

> I'll put this one to bed.
> 
> The high vis stuff is for formation comd staff posns....sayeth th oracle @ Div HQ



If the formation HQ is so big that no one knows who's senior and in charge, then right-size the HQ.


----------



## Jammer (8 Apr 2013)

That's why there are pictures on the walls with names and positions on them when you walk in the door. Day one, week one stuff....


----------



## Armynewsguy (8 Apr 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If the formation HQ is so big that no one knows who's senior and in charge, then right-size the HQ.



So, when I am walking in downtown Ottawa I should immediately recognize every military person that I come across from a distance? Personally, I like the idea of knowing that a salute is required before I am one step away from the person whom I should be saluting.


----------



## dapaterson (8 Apr 2013)

There are no field positions in NDHQ.  If you are posted to Ottawa, unless you're heading out to Connaught ranges, you shouldn't be in CADPAT.

The solution is to wear the appropriate uniform.  Not to make camouflage un-camouflage by spending more money.


----------



## Armynewsguy (8 Apr 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are no field positions in NDHQ.  If you are posted to Ottawa, unless you're heading out to Connaught ranges, you shouldn't be in CADPAT.
> 
> The solution is to wear the appropriate uniform.  Not to make camouflage un-camouflage by spending more money.



“Field position” has nothing to do with it, plus you have to look at the bigger picture. Troops wandering around Pet, Edmonton or Valcartier certainly are not going to know everyone, and they are in field positions. 

Unless of course, because they are not physically in the field they are required to wear DEU then that would solve everything. Or wait, we could introduce a new uniform. Make it kind of a cross between the field and garrison, you know kind of a camo jacket idea and maybe a dress pants ensemble. 

There we go problem solved….. or just make the names and rank a little easier to see.


----------



## Jammer (8 Apr 2013)

Garrison dress....I hate you...


----------



## dapaterson (8 Apr 2013)

If a few officers are so insecure that they need high-visibility ranks to ensure they are saluted the solution is not high visibility ranks, but better quality officers.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (8 Apr 2013)

Jammer said:
			
		

> Garrison dress....I hate you...



Funny you'd mention that.. while digging around for my respirator in my "army stuff" boxes last night I stumbled upon my "old army stuff" box and had a blast from the past:

Full garrison dress including jacket, pants, tshirts and boots; full Summer DEU with top and bottom; 82 pattern webbing; and full PT gear including (unused) grey runners, grey shorts and white t-shirt with blue collar.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Apr 2013)

Jammer said:
			
		

> Garrison dress....I hate you...



I second that motion.


----------



## SeR (8 Apr 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If a few officers are so insecure that they need high-visibility ranks to ensure they are saluted the solution is not high visibility ranks, but better quality officers.



What's the point of even having name tags and ranks on the uniform if nobody can even see them? I'm pretty sure their not changing them just so that more salutes can be thrown around.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Apr 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> and full PT gear including (unused) grey runners, grey shorts and white t-shirt with blue collar.



Oh man, do you ever have to show up to the next 'formation PT' session with that stuff on and some Lt Ring (Heartbreak Ridge) glasses.   8)

Make sure you style it up and wear the old school issued grey socks with those *runners*.


----------



## DirtyDog (8 Apr 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So we've invested millions to acquire uniforms with improved camouflage.
> 
> And now we're spending more money to get rank and name identifiers that are high visiblity.
> 
> "Special Kind Of Stupid" does not begin to describe this


If a nametape and rank epaulet compromise your camouflage, you're doing it wrong.  



			
				-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> IMO the improved visibility name and rank isn't a issue for field use as the tac vest and/or FPV would cover them(if the name and rank are worn).


Exactly.  End of story.  I personally have trouble distinguishing ranks at times, even when standing talking to someone.  Depending on the condition of the epaulet and the particular pattern on it, MCpl and Sgt can be a little hard to make out and I've addressed people by the wrong rank on numerous occasions.  I'm not worried about getting chewed out in the least, I just like to be correct.  



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> We've already got a uniform for garrison wear that has high visibility ranks & nametags.  It's called the DEU.
> 
> Not appropriate if you're working on the shop floor, but plenty adequate for sitting around the office type jobs.


A lot of us work in a garrison where the DEU is worn maybe half a dozen times a year.

Seriously, I think some people will find anything to be cynical about. I'm guilty of it from time to time.  If anyone thinks this is some scheme to elicit more salutes or anything like that, they are on glue and should re-evaluate their career.


----------



## Wolf117 (25 Jun 2013)

Anyone heard if there is any reality to the rumour that the new combats are being redesigned at the last minute because someone decided that the mandarin collar was too "American looking".  So now the new ICU will continue to have the current collar?


----------



## Verge1993 (25 Jun 2013)

I did some reserch and it said that there was going to be 24,000 made starting 2012 but I have yet to see any of these Improved Combat Uniforms (ICU).


----------



## Caramon_Majere (25 Jun 2013)

Could you please give us fellows in the dark a Link to a news article, or better yet, to a manifest of the order? i'm quite interested in hearing about this.

Edit : Apologies, when I first read this thread, I saw it as without replies. Seems like a Snafu; forget I asked.


----------



## JorgSlice (25 Jun 2013)

Was it so hard to do a search or even look on the front page for the thread?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101505.0.html


----------



## Caramon_Majere (25 Jun 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Was it so hard to do a search or even look on the front page for the thread?
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101505.0.html



My bad, when I read this thread I think it showed as having no replies, hence why I asked. this is obviously not the case.


----------



## Verge1993 (18 Jul 2013)

Just though I would share this picture since it shows the new ICUs.


http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/Sheldon_Verge/media/1074401_468196436605673_625630092_o_zps5050e3cb.jpg.html


----------



## slayer/raptor (18 Jul 2013)

Well by looking at the CACWO they still look terrible when they fade.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (18 Jul 2013)

The rank slip-on looks an awful lot like a 'target patch'....is there a subdued version for 'the field' (i.e. the current one) and one for garrison?


----------



## slayer/raptor (18 Jul 2013)

If you're in the field, in theory it will be covered up by frag and tac vests.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Jul 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> If you're in the field, in theory it will be covered up by frag and tac vests.



And promptly placed on the tacvest shoulder strap ;D


----------



## Haggis (18 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> Just though I would share this picture since it shows the new ICUs.
> 
> 
> http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/Sheldon_Verge/media/1074401_468196436605673_625630092_o_zps5050e3cb.jpg.html



The Army SM is not wearing the ICU.  That's an interim/hybrid version shirt and current version trousers.


----------



## slayer/raptor (18 Jul 2013)

Yes it is the new ICU, you can tell from the angled zipper pockets on his chest, the cadpat patch covering his sleeve pockets, the collar and holes to put pens.  I have the interim combat shirt and its not the same.


----------



## Verge1993 (18 Jul 2013)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The Army SM is not wearing the ICU.  That's an interim/hybrid version shirt and current version trousers.




That is the ICU. It has all the new features which where shown in a presentation about it.

Skip to 12:15 in the video. It's where the ICU is introduced and worn. Its the same Uniform which is in the picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=473A20b0Sxs


----------



## Old EO Tech (18 Jul 2013)

Looks like the final design was a compromise collar between a true mandarin collar and the old collar.  I'm sure that the AR shirt I saw at DSSPM a couple years ago had the short mandarin collar on it.


----------



## Verge1993 (18 Jul 2013)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Looks like the final design was a compromise collar between a true mandarin collar and the old collar.  I'm sure that the AR shirt I saw at DSSPM a couple years ago had the short mandarin collar on it.



What do you prefer? mandarin collar or current Canadian style? I personally prefer mandarin..


----------



## Haggis (19 Jul 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Yes it is the new ICU, you can tell from the angled zipper pockets on his chest, the cadpat patch covering his sleeve pockets, the collar and holes to put pens.  I have the interim combat shirt and its not the same.



Yup, you and Verge1993 are right.  I can see the details now on a real monitor.  Shouldn't have based my argument on a photo viewed on a Kobo E-Reader.  :nod:


----------



## Old EO Tech (19 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> What do you prefer? mandarin collar or current Canadian style? I personally prefer mandarin..



I'm partial to the mandarin collar as well, but I guess I'll have to wait and see for the new CADPAT to arrive and judge for myself.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Jul 2013)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Looks like the final design was a compromise



Big surprise.

Mandarian collar was probably too functional and modern.


----------



## MikeL (19 Jul 2013)

I assume we have a collar that is a mix of standard collar/mandarin is because the uniform is worn for both garrison and field. Even if we did have a Mandarin collar and not this 50/50 style, I'm quite sure we would still have it folded down in garrison like the US Army does with their ACU.


----------



## Verge1993 (19 Jul 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I assume we have a collar that is a mix of standard collar/mandarin is because the uniform is worn for both garrison and field. Even if we did have a Mandarin collar and not this 50/50 style, I'm quite sure we would still have it folded down in garrison like the US Army does with their ACU.



Personally I think you should have it folded down while in garrison anyway and given the option to have folder down or not only in the field. In garrison I think it would look kind of weird/off to have people going around with it up. That's just my  :2c: though.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (19 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> Personally I think you should have it folded down while in garrison anyway and given the option to have folder down or not only in the field. In garrison I think it would look kind of weird/off to have people going around with it up. That's just my  :2c: though.



Great insight.


----------



## Verge1993 (19 Jul 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Great insight.



This is sarcasm isn't it? I can't tell..


----------



## Bzzliteyr (19 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> This is sarcasm isn't it? I can't tell..



Yes.


----------



## Verge1993 (19 Jul 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Yes.



ok.  :facepalm:


----------



## a_majoor (19 Jul 2013)

Now we have to wait for the sourcing and issuing to happen. Only took a decade with the CTS rucksack......

And we are still waiting for boots (watching a BMQ in Kingston, still have at least a handfull marching in running shoes. Their field portion will be sheer hell....)


----------



## PuckChaser (19 Jul 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> And we are still waiting for boots (watching a BMQ in Kingston, still have at least a handfull marching in running shoes. Their field portion will be sheer hell....)



Some just completed a summer BMQ(L), in wet weather boots. No wonder they had destroyed feet after a 8km march.

We're looking more and more like the ANA, our new recruits can't get uniforms or even boots.

The Capability Investment Database has a lot of good info on the combat boot issue, including that Clothe the Soldier still hasn't gotten the boots right in 15 years. Problems with procurement epitomized.


----------



## JorgSlice (19 Jul 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Some just completed a summer BMQ(L), in wet weather boots. No wonder they had destroyed feet after a 8km march.
> 
> We're looking more and more like the ANA, our new recruits can't get uniforms or even boots.
> 
> The Capability Investment Database has a lot of good info on the combat boot issue, including that Clothe the Soldier still hasn't gotten the boots right in 15 years. Problems with procurement epitomized.



I was victim to this, I was one of 22 out of 38 with everything except boots. After doing BMQ in a beat up pair of combat boots my Dad used in Germany in '83 (I've never had to take so much time off work just to have my feet recover), I rectified the situation by purchasing my own boots. Sure I got jacked to high heaven but at least I didn't look like a goof and saved my feet some torture.

I felt for the poor souls that I did both BMQ and L phase who didn't even have uniforms. There was about 8 who had to go entire courses in grey coveralls, surplus webbing and helmets.

Edit to add: The boots for the 22 of us trickled through as BMQ progressed but most of us didn't get our initial issue boots until leaving for DP1.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (20 Jul 2013)

But thank goodness the officers will have shiny new pips and crowns right? That'll make it look SO much more professional.


----------



## Verge1993 (20 Jul 2013)

Why don't the Army put out a petition for NCM, NCO, and COs so they can choose what they would like to have or what they need.. Like have a list of 20+ things and they get to choose 2 or 3 things. The 2 or 3 things that are most chosen then tats what the Army will work on getting to the Soldiers first. It only makes the most sense seeing as how they are the ones out in the field that is in need the the equipment/clothing they need.


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> Why don't the Army put out a petition for NCM, NCO, and COs so they can choose what they would like to have or what they need.. Like have a list of 20+ things and they get to choose 2 or 3 things. The 2 or 3 things that are most chosen then tats what the Army will work on getting to the Soldiers first. It only makes the most sense seeing as how they are the ones out in the field that is in need the the equipment/clothing they need.



Glad you're joining next month, you can fix the CF's procurement bureaucracy after your first year in the military.  :


----------



## Verge1993 (20 Jul 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Glad you're joining next month, you can fix the CF's procurement bureaucracy after your first year in the military.  :



Was just a suggestion, don't need to be ignorant about it..


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> Was just a suggestion, don't need to be ignorant about it..



You don't even have kit yet, but you've got all the suggestions in the world to fix a problem that's been going on for decades, and not a clue about what we even require as a modern fighting force. Do you honestly think the Army doesn't know what we need desperately, but can't get due to a cumbersome procurement bureaucracy?


----------



## Verge1993 (20 Jul 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You don't even have kit yet, but you've got all the suggestions in the world to fix a problem that's been going on for decades, and not a clue about what we even require as a modern fighting force. Do you honestly think the Army doesn't know what we need desperately, but can't get due to a cumbersome procurement bureaucracy?



I do believe I am aloud to suggest what I want to. This is a forum so I suggested something to get some discussion on it, not somebody crawling down my throat. Oh and I also have had kit before.


----------



## Weezer23 (20 Jul 2013)

Verge...worry about your BMQ and getting your stuff straighten up before basics (bills,etc) before worrying about something that is way beyond your knowledge...I mean, you're not even IN the military yet, how can you in all honesty, give advice on how our procurement should be running? 

In other hand....it is still pretty shitty and been surviving with personal bought swats boots since last year..


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> Why don't the Army put out a petition for NCM, NCO, and COs so they can choose what they would like to have or what they need.. Like have a list of 20+ things and they get to choose 2 or 3 things. The 2 or 3 things that are most chosen then tats what the Army will work on getting to the Soldiers first. It only makes the most sense seeing as how they are the ones out in the field that is in need the the equipment/clothing they need.



We're soldiers. We do what we are ordered to do, provided its not illegal. We don't run the Canadian Army by petition.

Have a nice career.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (21 Jul 2013)

I'll chime in with this:

Verge, that suggestion has been put here many times before.  Simply read back in the thread and I am sure you'll stumble upon it once or twice. If not, then it has been discussed somewhere else on these forums, in multiple places.  Or maybe in each of our respective messes in real life.

TIP: In the military we have a saying called "stay in your lane".  It is a term that refers to people shooting in front of themselves and not crossing over into other people's lanes.  It can be done with knowledge as well.  I am a tanker, I will not go spouting off in the pilots forums, see what I mean?

Your suggestion is valid though everyone that has been around the block one or twice (or 1000 times in Seggie's case) has heard it before.  You're not in your lane, see the issue?


----------



## Verge1993 (21 Jul 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I'll chime in with this:
> 
> Verge, that suggestion has been put here many times before.  Simply read back in the thread and I am sure you'll stumble upon it once or twice. If not, then it has been discussed somewhere else on these forums, in multiple places.  Or maybe in each of our respective messes in real life.
> 
> ...



Yeah I understand. My trade I'm accepted for is Infantry so I should just keep my mid set on that and leave the equipment that we need in the hand of the higher ups. I think thats what you mean anyway.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (21 Jul 2013)

Kind of, I am saying that in general, on the internet, it's good to lurk for a while and get a feel for things before you step into something that is over your head.

If this thread wasn't on its 26th page then I could see you bringing something new to the table... alas, it is not. See?

Now, that's not to say that you as an Infantry private have no say in anything.  During your courses, should you encounter a piece of kit that you find has a deficiency, then by all means search Army.ca and find information about the Unsatisfactory Condition Report (UCR).  They are a valuable tool in identifying kit issues and I think they should be taught at the lowest level.  Read up about them, you'll see what I mean.

Step one for now: get to and complete BMQ.


----------



## dale622 (22 Jul 2013)

Received a set of the new pants today. So many new bells and whistles I'm surprised there isn't a 1 day course on how to operate and maintain. Didn't have time to figure out the new blousing system so rocked boot bands instead. Didn't think I would ever see it this year/decade at the rate our procurement system seems to be moving with most of our equipment.


----------



## PuckChaser (22 Jul 2013)

bananaman said:
			
		

> Received a set of the new pants today. So many new bells and whistles I'm surprised there isn't a 1 day course on how to operate and maintain.



Kinda like the CTS rucksack?  ;D


----------



## slayer/raptor (23 Jul 2013)

Bananaman, are people at your base starting to get issued the complete set yet?

 Gagetown still has a huge shortage of the old stuff, can't wait for the new to get in.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Jul 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> Why don't the Army put out a petition for NCM, NCO, and COs so they can choose what they would like to have or what they need.. Like have a list of 20+ things and they get to choose 2 or 3 things. The 2 or 3 things that are most chosen then tats what the Army will work on getting to the Soldiers first. It only makes the most sense seeing as how they are the ones out in the field that is in need the the equipment/clothing they need.



All NCOs are NCMs.

I will toss my vote in for "stupid idea".  Stop tossing around the fact that 'you were in before'.  Your lack of experience/knowledge is evident.


----------



## dale622 (24 Jul 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Bananaman, are people at your base starting to get issued the complete set yet?
> 
> Gagetown still has a huge shortage of the old stuff, can't wait for the new to get in.



I'm currently in Gagetown and received my pants here. It's only certain sizes and no shirts as of yet.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Jul 2013)

It's important to issue pants separately from shirts, especially so if it is two different styles of uniform.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Jul 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It's important to issue pants separately from shirts, especially so if it is two different styles of uniform.



And 1 must be brand new and the other faded...to make it more obvious.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Kinda like the CTS rucksack?  ;D



If you need zone day course to learn how to use a ruck or your pants.....then it's too complicated.

KISS


----------



## Matt_Fisher (25 Jul 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> If you need zone day course to learn how to use a ruck or your pants.....then it's too complicated.
> 
> KISS



zone day courses were always my favourite.   :camo:


----------



## MikeL (25 Jul 2013)

bananaman said:
			
		

> Received a set of the new pants today. So many new bells and whistles I'm surprised there isn't a 1 day course on how to operate and maintain.



Are the internal knee pads being issued out with the pants?


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Jul 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Are the internal knee pads being issued out with the pants?



Only if you want a promotion.   >   







 :bowing:


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> zone day courses were always my favourite.   :camo:



Yes, those one day "zone out" mandatory courses


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Jul 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Are the internal knee pads being issued out with the pants?



Coworker got them with his pants, I believe they were included in the packaging. I can confirm tomorrow.


----------



## dale622 (30 Jul 2013)

Yes they come in the pants. Easy to take out and I'm sure they are easy to misplace in the basement pile of un-used kit.


----------



## Loachman (7 Aug 2013)

bananaman said:
			
		

> Yes they come in the pants.



My sister had problems with guys like that.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Aug 2013)

bananaman said:
			
		

> Yes they come in the pants. Easy to take out and I'm sure they are easy to misplace in the basement pile of un-used kit.


Instead of "greatcoats on, greatcoats off", will we now have "knee pads in, knee pads out"?


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Aug 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Instead of "greatcoats on, greatcoats off", will we now have "knee pads in, knee pads out"?



And heaven help you if you have the kneepads in while you're in garrison!  ;D

I can almost hear the thoughts of some jacka$$ mulling this over.


----------



## a_majoor (7 Aug 2013)

If issuing a set of pants is so complicated now that it takes years to procure and you need a set fo instructions about how to wear them, what will it be like 15-20 years from now when a combat uniform will have much of the functionality and complexity of a space suit? (built in medical monitoring systems, exoskeleton for load bearing and strength, protective plates, environmental control and CBRN protection, self adjusting camoflage etc?).

Just throwing that out now so the planning cycle can kick in. That way it will be ready when the technology is..... >


----------



## George Wallace (7 Aug 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> If issuing a set of pants is so complicated now that it takes years to procure and you need a set fo instructions about how to wear them, what will it be like 15-20 years from now when a combat uniform will have much of the functionality and complexity of a space suit? (built in medical monitoring systems, exoskeleton for load bearing and strength, protective plates, environmental control and CBRN protection, self adjusting camoflage etc?).
> 
> Just throwing that out now so the planning cycle can kick in. That way it will be ready when the technology is..... >



I thought we made the plans and developed doctrines after we made the purchases.


----------



## Verge1993 (12 Aug 2013)

So what kind of Uniform is this Canadian Ranger using. Looks like a mix between the old and new one. I hope there not giving out the ICUs too Rangers befor all RegF.

=136653741&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0]http://s1293.photobucket.com/user/Sheldon_Verge/media/1170649_479410892150894_2015208283_n_zps8bb8b00d.jpg.html?filters[user]=136653741&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0


_Original photo_
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=479410892150894&set=a.263398710418781.60193.230798677012118&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf


----------



## MikeL (12 Aug 2013)

Kinda looks like he has a modified combat jacket or a rain jacket. It isn't the ECU shirt though.


----------



## Verge1993 (12 Aug 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> It looks like he has the interim combat shirt - just the regular combats, but with the sleeve pocket(and velcro) added.



I didn't think the Rangers got the CADPAT tops. My uncle is a Ranger and all he has is the bright red hoodie and CADPAT trousers.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (12 Aug 2013)

Looks like it could be one of the RSS that was posted in from a current unit that has gotten kitted out with one of the interim shirts?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (12 Aug 2013)

The picture is of the guy wearing the Convergent Rain Gear Jacket while operating a quad.....and not the ICU or ECU.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (12 Aug 2013)

Verge1993 said:
			
		

> I didn't think the Rangers got the CADPAT tops. My uncle is a Ranger and all he has is the bright red hoodie and CADPAT trousers.


You're correct, Canadian Rangers are only issued CADPAT pants.  However, a lot of our CR buy their own aftermarket equipment and will sometimes "augment" their apparel with such items, but we usually discourage this when in front of the camera.


----------



## Sparkplugs (13 Aug 2013)

Loachman said:
			
		

> My sister had problems with guys like that.



Well thank you for this, now I have to clean the chocolate milk out of my keyboard.  ;D


----------



## Loachman (13 Aug 2013)

You've had the same problem, then?


----------



## Sparkplugs (13 Aug 2013)

Loachman said:
			
		

> You've had the same problem, then?



No comment!  ;D


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Aug 2013)

Loachman said:
			
		

> You've had the same problem, then?



I was impressed with the lack of requests for pictures of your sister.... unless they all went to PM.  ;D


----------



## slayer/raptor (23 Sep 2013)

Anyone else starting to think they are waiting to get the pips and crown rank slip ons before starting to issue the ICU?


----------



## PuckChaser (23 Sep 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Anyone else starting to think they are waiting to get the pips and crown rank slip ons before starting to issue the ICU?



I've seen ICU pants out already. Shirts and pants are being replaced as stock of the old stuff is depleted. So if you want new stuff, go to the field and use up the old stuff.  ;D


----------



## slayer/raptor (23 Sep 2013)

Yeah I've seen the new pants too, I should have specified the top.


----------



## Bassil_Inf (23 Sep 2013)

Does anyone know if reservists get issued the new combats?


----------



## PteAJL (23 Sep 2013)

@darkinfantry

Dude we still use the old rucksacks...
I highly doubt we'll get the new combats any time soon.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (23 Sep 2013)

I have a set of new pants in the office next to me.. he has removed the knee pads as he's rocking a desk.  I can ask him to pose for pics but we're almost done our day.


----------



## JorgSlice (23 Sep 2013)

DarkInfantry232 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if reservists get issued the new combats?



Depends.

One guy in my unit has the ICU shirt. The Res MPs across town all have full set of the ICU.


----------



## Franko (23 Sep 2013)

They are slowly trickling into the system. 

You will get something, might be new or old....it's luck of the draw and what your size is, regardless of reg or reserve.

I have the new pants and they aren't something to write home about....just different.

Regards


----------



## Bzzliteyr (24 Sep 2013)

Seeing as most reserve units are supported by regular force bases (in our case, Edmonton sends us down our kit) then I can see reservists getting bits and pieces as they are on the shelves.


----------



## KerryBlue (24 Sep 2013)

Sorry if this has been addressed already. Today while waking in downtown Ottawa I saw what appeared to be a Canadian Forces soldier wearing the combat shirt attached. It had the rank epaulette, name tag, a rather large red and white maple leaf on the left shoulder, some other insignia on the right shoulder couldn't really make it out. The young man also had a backpack with the same camouflage pattern, a maple leaf in the center, and some other insignia that I honestly couldn't make it. 

Are there any soldiers that are issued this type of Camouflage, I'm fairly certain in the ak-47 thread in the weapons and ammo forum I saw a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan wearing similar looking camo. But for all I know it was an civilian who purchased the jacket. Just wanted to clarify. 

Thanks, Alex


----------



## MikeL (24 Sep 2013)

KerryBlue said:
			
		

> Are there any soldiers that are issued this type of Camouflage, I'm fairly certain in the ak-47 thread in the weapons and ammo forum I saw a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan wearing similar looking camo. But for all I know it was an civilian who purchased the jacket. Just wanted to clarify.



The only issued camouflage(AFAIK) is CADPAT, and Multicam(CANSOF).  I believe the photo you are referring to, is of a ex Canadian Forces member who is now a Private Security Contractor in Afghanistan.


----------



## KerryBlue (24 Sep 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> The only issued camouflage(AFAIK) is CADPAT, and Multicam(CANSOF).  I believe the photo you are referring to, is of a ex Canadian Forces member who is now a Private Security Contractor in Afghanistan.



Would it be safe to assume then that the individual I saw today was not an active member of the Canadian Forces. I just found it strange how official everything appeared as he walked by. 

Alex


----------



## PuckChaser (24 Sep 2013)

KerryBlue said:
			
		

> Would it be safe to assume then that the individual I saw today was not an active member of the Canadian Forces. I just found it strange how official everything appeared as he walked by.



Can buy anything we're issued from a surplus store, not hard to fake it.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Sep 2013)

DarkInfantry232 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if reservists get issued the new combats?



The ICU may or may not be issued dependent upon stocks of the older CADPAT.


----------



## PaulD (26 Sep 2013)

KerryBlue said:
			
		

> Would it be safe to assume then that the individual I saw today was not an active member of the Canadian Forces. I just found it strange how official everything appeared as he walked by.
> 
> Alex



Sounds like you had an encounter with a creature known as a  'mall ninja'.


----------



## PteAJL (29 Sep 2013)

Seems like something similar to the ICU/ECU has already been made by the airsoft companies...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadpat-SWAT-Digital-Camo-Woodland-BDU-Uniform-Set-/111105581713?pt=US_Hunting_Clothes&var=&hash=item19de68a291


----------



## MikeL (29 Sep 2013)

PteAJL said:
			
		

> Seems like something similar to the ICU/ECU has already been made by the airsoft companies...
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadpat-SWAT-Digital-Camo-Woodland-BDU-Uniform-Set-/111105581713?pt=US_Hunting_Clothes&var=&hash=item19de68a291




Reproductions of the US Army's ACU have been around for years, and available in various camo patterns.


----------



## PteAJL (29 Sep 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Reproductions of the US Army's ACU have been around for years, and available in various camo patterns.



Hm Maybe the CAF could save money and just buy those in bulk instead of waiting all this time to just to make new uniforms. ;D


----------



## DirtyDog (2 Oct 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The ICU may or may not be issued dependent upon stocks of the older CADPAT.


Just to clarify... reservists have the same chance of getting the ICU as anyone else.  Clothing stores is clothing stores.  When you go in to exchange your pants/shirt, you will be given whatever is available, regardless of component.

The clothing stores I've been dealing with has been issuing out the new pants.  I have a few pairs and am not a fan unless something comes down that they can be worn unbloused.  I have nothing against pants blousing, and in fact, like it, but it sucks with the new pants.  Way too much material and bits and pieces down there (Velcro cuff, shock cord, etc.).


----------



## markppcli (6 Oct 2013)

Presently, 1 VP has been telling troops to avoid wearing the ICU pants until a standard for blousing them comes out... It occurs to be that at some point we traded places with the RCR.


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Oct 2013)

markppcli said:
			
		

> Presently, 1 VP has been telling troops to avoid wearing the ICU pants until a standard for blousing them comes out... It occurs to be that at some point we traded places with the RCR.



So for those with only ICU pants, would no pants now be an option? New meaning to dress-down Friday....


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Oct 2013)

markppcli said:
			
		

> Presently, 1 VP has been telling troops to avoid wearing the ICU pants until a standard for blousing them comes out... It occurs to be that at some point we traded places with the RCR.



Well, that is the First and the Finest....


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2013)

markppcli said:
			
		

> Presently, 1 VP has been telling troops to avoid wearing the ICU pants until a standard for blousing them comes out... It occurs to be that at some point we traded places with the RCR.



When you get 10 extra duties because the top set of eyelets of your boots aren't done up (true story) THEN you can suggest such a thing.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Oct 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> When you get 10 extra duties because the top set of eyelets of your boots aren't done up (true story) THEN you can suggest such a thing.



Or 14 for failing to shake the COs hand after a hockey game. True story.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Or 14 for failing to shake the COs hand after a hockey game. True story.



Touche.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Oct 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Touche.



Plus seven for failing to wear issue boots.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (6 Oct 2013)

markppcli said:
			
		

> Presently, 1 VP has been telling troops to avoid wearing the ICU pants until a standard for blousing them comes out... It occurs to be that at some point we traded places with the RCR.



Ok - that is retarded.  I see the Bde SM most days, and he is wearing the new pants, bloused (which I think is dumb).  I am fairly certain he will be in the field for about 4 weeks starting next week, and based on previous sightings, he and the Bde Comd will both have unbloused pants the whole time they are in the field - and if I know them, the pants will stay unbloused when the CDS visits...........

I know a few people in 1 VP - perhaps I can get to the bottom of this.


----------



## Old EO Tech (7 Oct 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Ok - that is retarded.  I see the Bde SM most days, and he is wearing the new pants, bloused (which I think is dumb).  I am fairly certain he will be in the field for about 4 weeks starting next week, and based on previous sightings, he and the Bde Comd will both have unbloused pants the whole time they are in the field - and if I know them, the pants will stay unbloused when the CDS visits...........
> 
> I know a few people in 1 VP - perhaps I can get to the bottom of this.



I'm pretty sure the intent was to have people use the new pants in the field unbloused, and save the old pants for Garrison.  At least until the Bn leadership can figure out the way ahead.


----------



## dale622 (7 Oct 2013)

I have never seen an enforced standard for the old combats! Isn't it simple enough to just give the order to have your pants bloused? Didn't think there was much wiggle room on something like that. Maybe I'm just right out to left field to the point I'm fouling.


----------



## JorgSlice (7 Oct 2013)

bananaman said:
			
		

> I have never seen an enforced standard for the old combats! Isn't it simple enough to just give the order to have your pants bloused? Didn't think there was much wiggle room on something like that. Maybe I'm just right out to left field to the point I'm fouling.



I guess some units just have people with better common sense  than others. Apart from my frustration with the whole Boot fiasco; we've been told to handle the ICU no different than the current Combat Uniform unless otherwise specified.


----------



## dale622 (7 Oct 2013)

Being right near a major ex I would think we have more important things to deal with. Don't get me stated on the boot fiasco... I could angrily rant for a long time.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (8 Oct 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Ok - that is retarded.  I see the Bde SM most days, and he is wearing the new pants, bloused (which I think is dumb).  I am fairly certain he will be in the field for about 4 weeks starting next week, and based on previous sightings, he and the Bde Comd will both have unbloused pants the whole time they are in the field - and if I know them, the pants will stay unbloused when the CDS visits...........
> 
> I know a few people in 1 VP - perhaps I can get to the bottom of this.



As I've posted and trolled on many occasions on different topics on this forum: why do we blouse our combat pants?  Where does it say we must and if the Clothe the soldier program came out with pants that aren't supposed to be bloused then why are we wearing them BLOUSED?!?!? AAAAHHHHHH!!!

Can you maybe push higher and see what the Army's plan really is with these? (or ask the RSM as that's his "thing"?)


----------



## Ostrozac (8 Oct 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> As I've posted and trolled on many occasions on different topics on this forum: why do we blouse our combat pants?  Where does it say we must and if the Clothe the soldier program came out with pants that aren't supposed to be bloused then why are we wearing them BLOUSED?!?!? AAAAHHHHHH!!!
> 
> Can you maybe push higher and see what the Army's plan really is with these? (or ask the RSM as that's his "thing"?)



Officially, we aren't supposed to blouse our combat trousers.  For whatever reason, unlike belts, socks, bootlaces, and insoles, boot bands never made it into the supply system. That's why boot bands are only available for purchase at CANEX. And even worse, troops are pressured to buy them!

That's right, everyone, boot bands are in fact the original non-issue kit that is only worn for the look cool factor.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (8 Oct 2013)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Officially, we aren't supposed to blouse our combat trousers.  For whatever reason, unlike belts, socks, bootlaces, and insoles, boot bands never made it into the supply system. That's why boot bands are only available for purchase at CANEX. And even worse, troops are pressured to buy them!
> 
> That's right, everyone, boot bands are in fact the original non-issue kit that is only worn for the look cool factor.



There is no obligation though as (in my case this morning as I forgot my boot bands) we have laces in our pants we can use to "blouse" them.


----------



## vonGarvin (8 Oct 2013)

Our enemies have bloused their trousers:





We have bloused our trousers:




Our potential adversaries in the Cold War bloused their trousers:





I doubt we did so for universality of fashion.  I think it has more to do with keeping the bottom of your trousers from wearing and tearing.  Does it mean _we_ have to?  No.  But irrespective of what Ostrozac says, there was a reason for it.  But...."because that's how we've always done it" is no reason to do anything.


----------



## George Wallace (8 Oct 2013)

It really is quite simple.  To prolong the life of the pants by keeping them clean (not caked with mud), not worn from dragging on the ground, and to avoid a good majority of low growing plants that may catch them on barbs.......and the LCF  :nod:  Capt Kirk bloused his pants, and he hasn't even been born yet.   ;D


----------



## Lightguns (8 Oct 2013)

Seen today a young Royal wearing standard Cadpat pants with small pocket down by ankles. Thought it was ICU but it had outside buttons on leg pockets and no knee pad holder. This and private boots must drive RSMs to distraction!


----------



## dan005e (11 Oct 2013)

Thats different, I see your at CTC Lightguns, they are issuing the new pants here in Gagetown in certain sizes. Maybe what you saw was the new pants.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Oct 2013)

Perhaps when new pants are issued they can issue some common sense to those that need it.

My sarcastic  :2c:


----------



## x_para76 (12 Oct 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> When you get 10 extra duties because the top set of eyelets of your boots aren't done up (true story) THEN you can suggest such a thing.



Mate please tell me you're joking and that you've just posted this as a complete piss take. If not that's bloody ridiculous.


----------



## Haggis (12 Oct 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> When you get 10 extra duties because the top set of eyelets of your boots aren't done up (true story) THEN you can suggest such a thing.



Only ten?  Discipline is slipping....


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Oct 2013)

X_para76 said:
			
		

> Mate please tell me you're joking and that you've just posted this as a complete piss take. If not that's bloody ridiculous.



It's not. 

I did 21 for wearing Rocky boots and another faux pas. I do not doubt his story for a minute.


----------



## Haggis (12 Oct 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I did 21 for wearing Rocky boots and another faux pas.



For 21 extras, hopefully your other faux pas involved the RSM's daughter. :-D


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Oct 2013)

So if a CF member is wearing kit they are not entitled to find out if it's issued to them.

If it's not issued to them ding them for mixing issued and non-issued kit.

If they are wearing kit that was issued for which they are not entitled to then investigate and ding whoever issued it to them.


It may seem like a trivial thing but there are plenty of people who have shit like goretext socks and ranger blankets issued to them which they have for the sake of having it while guys and girls who spend a month or more living outside don't have it issued.




Another problem with phasing in something like this Improved Combat Uniform is that it temps people to damage their current uniform's in order to qualify them for exchange with the hopes of getting the new shit.

IMO this should be done in phases where a whole unit gets the stuff issued.
I think that would stop people from destroying stuff on purpose and also ensure you get both a top and bottom uniform so you don't look mismatched and stupid.

I'm in the process of sewing my cargo pocket back on because I'm afraid if I exchange my pants, and by some stroke of epic luck they actually have my size (I'm a 33, last I was told I would have to go up to a 38 ), I'll get a brand new pair of pants which I won't wear until I get a new shirt.


----------



## Journeyman (14 Oct 2013)

Maybe one of those awesome, hard-working Mods can separate all the "CIC  :'(  posts" and move them to the Cadet threads.  :dunno:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (14 Oct 2013)

Or,

GET BACK ON TOPIC FOLKS.......NOW!

[that might save me some work]


----------



## vonGarvin (15 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Or,
> 
> GET BACK ON TOPIC FOLKS.......NOW!
> 
> [that might save me some work]


(Roger, and hopefully OT)

Query for anyone in clothing.  

My "old school" Cadpat is rather...ragged.  To the point of being almost embarrassing.  Going quickly from translucent to transparent.  So, my question: how much longer do I have to wear these threads?  Or is the ICU going to be issued any day now in Gagetown?

Thanks


----------



## Lightguns (15 Oct 2013)

ICU is being issued in Gagetown.  My daughter came of MATA in Sep 13 and got the whole works in 3 suits.  She is still struggling with the pads!  She is base side as well, not a field unit.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (15 Oct 2013)

Remove the knee pads then.....


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (15 Oct 2013)

So what changes made their way onto the final issue version? I heard some features that were prominent on the ppt were dropped before mass production commenced.


----------



## slayer/raptor (15 Oct 2013)

Lightguns, did she get the top as well? Have the tailors received the new slipons or patches I guess?


----------



## vonGarvin (15 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> ICU is being issued in Gagetown.  My daughter came of MATA in Sep 13 and got the whole works in 3 suits.  She is still struggling with the pads!  She is base side as well, not a field unit.


False. It's not issued yet. I was just at clothing today. They had nothing in my size (old pattern) and none of the new stuff.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (15 Oct 2013)

Tech, I had guys in my instructional cell issued the new combats over the summer....


----------



## vonGarvin (15 Oct 2013)

Well, I hope to heck they hurry up and get mine in. My rags are falling apart.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (16 Oct 2013)

I watched an interesting episode of 'The Nature of Things' last night regarding Lyme Disease and its spread in Canada.

All of the field researchers made a point to tuck their pant legs into their socks or wear gaiters of some sort to avoid having (infected) ticks crawl up their legs.  From a prevention of Lyme Disease standpoint, blousing pants makes sense.


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Oct 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I watched an interesting episode of 'The Nature of Things' last night regarding Lyme Disease and its spread in Canada.
> 
> All of the field researchers made a point to tuck their pant legs into their socks or wear gaiters of some sort to avoid having (infected) ticks crawl up their legs.  From a prevention of Lyme Disease standpoint, blousing pants makes sense.



Tucking the sand trap into the boot makes sense.  Blousing may add a little more protection.  I used to try and emphasize that point during my briefings.   :nod:


----------



## slayer/raptor (16 Oct 2013)

Saw an email today with a sitrep from the G4.  As for the ECU shirts, they started production in Aug and have started arriving at the depot.  Apparently they won't ship them to the base supplies until the rank patches and large Cdn flags are ready which won't be until Dec 13.


----------



## PanaEng (16 Oct 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I watched an interesting episode of 'The Nature of Things' last night regarding Lyme Disease and its spread in Canada.
> 
> All of the field researchers made a point to tuck their pant legs into their socks or wear gaiters of some sort to avoid having (infected) ticks crawl up their legs.  From a prevention of Lyme Disease standpoint, blousing pants makes sense.


I've had swarms of ticks crawl up my legs in Panama, army ants and a scorpion - I NEVER remove the sand trap (and even sew up the holes in it)

Chimo!
Frank


----------



## Bzzliteyr (16 Oct 2013)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I watched an interesting episode of 'The Nature of Things' last night regarding Lyme Disease and its spread in Canada.
> 
> All of the field researchers made a point to tuck their pant legs into their socks or wear gaiters of some sort to avoid having (infected) ticks crawl up their legs.  From a prevention of Lyme Disease standpoint, blousing pants makes sense.



PMedMoe beat me to it.. the people that cut "those dang things" out are posing a health risk to themselves should they be deployed.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Oct 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> PMedMoe beat me to it.. the people that cut "those dang things" out are posing a health risk to themselves should they be deployed.



They do make good expedient shitpaper though ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (16 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> They do make good expedient shitpaper though ;D



Beat me to it!  And yes it does "fill the bill"


----------



## Lightguns (16 Oct 2013)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Lightguns, did she get the top as well? Have the tailors received the new slipons or patches I guess?



I never asked shewas mentioning on FB that the pads are pain in and the knee area feels bulky without them in.


----------



## Lightguns (16 Oct 2013)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> False. It's not issued yet. I was just at clothing today. They had nothing in my size (old pattern) and none of the new stuff.



Perhaps if you turn in your maternity Cadpat you will get new ones as well. Seriously, she received old style shirt with pockets on the arm and pants with removable knee pads. Perhaps they are modifying old pants with knee pads?  I just messages and that is her claim. 

As she had maternity wear, they would have to provide 40 sizes smaller so maybe they dipped into something they there. There is certainly knee pad Cadpat floating around.  It is clothing stores and I have found that your experience may vary when there.


----------



## armyvern (16 Oct 2013)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Tech, I had guys in my instructional cell issued the new combats over the summer....




True enough.  Lots of pers with the new pants around here (with the kneepads and straps), but none of the new mandarin collared shirts yet. I do believe those are being held back pending arrival of flags and  high vis ranks.


----------



## vonGarvin (16 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Perhaps if you turn in your maternity Cadpat you will get new ones as well.


:rofl:

But, seriously, I'd take a pair of OD combats over what I have now...


----------



## MilEME09 (17 Oct 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> True enough.  Lots of pers with the new pants around here (with the kneepads and straps), but none of the new mandarin collared shirts yet. I do believe those are being held back pending arrival of flags and  high vis ranks.



A lot of people in my Reserve unit were given new shirts with the pockets on the sleeves, no collar, hmm interim shirt perhaps?


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Oct 2013)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> A lot of people in my Reserve unit were given new shirts with the pockets on the sleeves, no collar, hmm interim shirt perhaps?



Yep, interim shirt, been around a while. Similar to the CADPAT AR that had pockets sewn on in theatre, just these were tailored here.


----------



## Lightguns (17 Oct 2013)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> But, seriously, I'd take a pair of OD combats over what I have now...



If you are in Gagetown, what's your size?  I am a socio-path in a cube and got nearly new 1 shirt and pant I rarely wear.  I be happy to trade you out if that helps.


----------



## vonGarvin (17 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> If you are in Gagetown, what's your size?  I am a socio-path in a cube and got nearly new 1 shirt and pant I rarely wear.  I be happy to trade you out if that helps.


Shirt is 7036.  Trousers are 7030


----------



## Bzzliteyr (17 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> If you are in Gagetown, what's your size?  I am a socio-path in a cube and got nearly new 1 shirt and pant I rarely wear.  I be happy to trade you out if that helps.



That would cause the supply techs heads to implode when he ever tries to turn them in.  Different NSNs.  I had that happen to me when I was given a full (second) set of gear upon my return from Afghanistan as my stuff was in a sea can.  When I tried to return the "wrong" stuff it confused the poor techs. They had issued me different sized stuff and absolutely need THAT stuff back, not just any (already issued) kit.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Oct 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> That would cause the supply techs heads to implode when he ever tries to turn them in.  Different NSNs.  I had that happen to me when I was given a full (second) set of gear upon my return from Afghanistan as my stuff was in a sea can.  When I tried to return the "wrong" stuff it confused the poor techs. They had issued me different sized stuff and absolutely need THAT stuff back, not just any (already issued) kit.



Its really not that hard for the Sup Tech to figure out, it just takes a minute to scan your DOCs and match stuff up.  Sometimes people like to make things look like they are a bigger deal then they actually are. 

I have spent many hours on the clothing stores counter and this not uncommon at all and easily figured out.


----------



## armyvern (17 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Its really not that hard for the Sup Tech to figure out, it just takes a minute to scan your DOCs and match stuff up.  Sometimes people like to make things look like they are a bigger deal then they actually are.
> 
> I have spent many hours on the clothing stores counter and this not uncommon at all and easily figured out.



Ahhhh, but you and I -- we are keeners!  We should get spec pay.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (17 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Its really not that hard for the Sup Tech to figure out, it just takes a minute to scan your DOCs and match stuff up.  Sometimes people like to make things look like they are a bigger deal then they actually are.
> 
> I have spent many hours on the clothing stores counter and this not uncommon at all and easily figured out.



It certainly wasn't confusing or hard for me to understand but I'm just a lowly armour crewman.  I dont have anything near the intense levels of training all those supply techs do... I think someone once suggested they should get spec pay.


----------



## armyvern (17 Oct 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> That would cause the supply techs heads to implode when he ever tries to turn them in.  Different NSNs.  I had that happen to me when I was given a full (second) set of gear upon my return from Afghanistan as my stuff was in a sea can.  When I tried to return the "wrong" stuff it confused the poor techs. They had issued me different sized stuff and absolutely need THAT stuff back, not just any (already issued) kit.




Hey wait a bleeping minute ... it was me who spent hours trying to fix your docs for you ... they were a total shitshow of a mess.  And they were f‘n confusing.  He who attempteth to build full scale Leo in bis backyard apparently ...


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Oct 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> It certainly wasn't confusing or hard for me to understand but I'm just a lowly armour crewman.  I dont have anything near the intense levels of training all those supply techs do... I think someone once suggested they should get spec pay.



I certainly wasn't implying that clothing docs are too confusing for you I hope you get that.  I was actually sympathizing with you and using my first hand experience and knowledge to help explain that some of my brethren like to inflate their responsibility and task at hand.  

Vern Im all for spec pay!  I will co-write the memo with you if you wish!


----------



## Bzzliteyr (17 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I certainly wasn't implying that clothing docs are too confusing for you I hope you get that.  I was actually sympathizing with you and using my first hand experience and knowledge to help explain that some of my brethren like to inflate their responsibility and task at hand.
> 
> Vern Im all for spec pay!  I will co-write the memo with you if you wish!



I was doing self depreciation so Vern felt better about her "service comes second" trade (that's what the capbadge says, right?).. I won't say it was Valcartier that had the issue with the double issue.. cause then the french people on here would get down my throat.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Oct 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> "service comes second" trade (that's what the capbadge says, right?)



That is hilarious!  Mind I use this in the future ?  I will send the royalties too ya!  

You know were talking about new combats here, am I the only one who goes in clothing looking for used combats ?  I hate them when they are brand new, they stink.  I always ask if they have any used ones first.


----------



## George Wallace (17 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> You know were talking about new combats here, am I the only one who goes in clothing looking for used combats ?  I hate them when they are brand new, they stink.  I always ask if they have any used ones first.



There is this new fangled invention that can solve that problem.  I think it is called a warshingmachine in PEI.  I could be wrong on that though.  That lady I keep barefoot and in the kitchen may be able to answer it.  I'll ask her.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (17 Oct 2013)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Shirt is 7036.  Trousers are 7030



Maybe you could sign for some shoulders when you are next at QM  >


----------



## Journeyman (17 Oct 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Maybe you could sign for some shoulders when you are next at QM  >


          Ooohh, burn.    :evil:


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There is this new fangled invention that can solve that problem.  I think it is called a warshingmachine in PEI.  I could be wrong on that though.  That lady I keep barefoot and in the kitchen may be able to answer it.  I'll ask her.



Thanks tips!


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Oct 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Maybe you could sign for some shoulders when you are next at QM  >



Last time I saw global stock levels on shoulders we only had stock in "brook trout" left...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (17 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Last time I saw global stock levels on shoulders we only had stock in "brook trout" left...



What, all out of snake?


----------



## vonGarvin (17 Oct 2013)

Ouch!


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> What, all out of snake?



Those went right after the CF issued backbones were depleted


----------



## armyvern (19 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Those went right after the CF issued backbones were depleted



I'll note that we have gotten some spineless jellyfishes catalogued into the system lately.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Oct 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'll note that we have gotten some spineless jellyfishes catalogued into the system lately.



That must be the part after the UCR and ECs took place...


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Oct 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'll note that we have gotten some spineless jellyfishes catalogued into the system lately.



We've always had them, but were never accounted for.....


----------



## Halifax Tar (20 Oct 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We've always had them, but were never accounted for.....



They were "C" class (consumable)  >


----------



## william337200@gmail.com (22 Mar 2014)

Hey has anyone seen troops wearing the ECU top with the mandarin collar? Cause all I've seen recently was the pants.


----------



## slayer/raptor (12 Sep 2014)

So I heard today that the new ECU tops are actually in the QMs and ready to be distributed out. However they are waiting until the new officer ranks are available (which last I heard the switch was going to be Nov 11th). Which begs the question, why aren't the NCMs receiving them yet? Anyone else hear about this? It came from a supply officer, so I took it to be pretty credible.


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Sep 2014)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Which begs the question, why aren't the NCMs receiving them yet? Anyone else hear about this? It came from a supply officer, so I took it to be pretty credible.



Sure.....sounds like you need syrup for the waffle that officer served you.


----------



## acen (12 Sep 2014)

They're issuing them out to NCMs at CFSUO Clothing Stores...rank Velcro and flags are in short supply, but they're in the wild.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (12 Sep 2014)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> So I heard today that the new ECU tops are actually in the QMs and ready to be distributed out. However they are waiting until the new officer ranks are available (which last I heard the switch was going to be Nov 11th). Which begs the question, why aren't the NCMs receiving them yet? Anyone else hear about this? It came from a supply officer, so I took it to be pretty credible.



They are also issuing out the remainder of the new old style combat shirts that are still in the supply system. The rumour had been that they wanted to delay the issue of the new ECU to the officers to avoid having to issue 2 sets of eppaulettes out (slip ons for old ones, velcro for new ones). The brown shirts wont be issued until the last of the green undershirts are out of the system as well last I heard from Sup Coy in Gagetown.


----------



## slayer/raptor (12 Sep 2014)

They do realize that we will still need the old slip on style ranks for our rain and ICE jackets right? Or is there a plan to put velco patches on those jackets sometime in the future?


----------



## PuckChaser (12 Sep 2014)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> They do realize that we will still need the old slip on style ranks for our rain and ICE jackets right? Or is there a plan to put velco patches on those jackets sometime in the future?



When we buy things, the project office doesn't worry about "other kit". New bayonets? Awesome! New bayonet scabbard doesn't fit in DEU frog? That's someone else's project.  :facepalm:


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

New tops finally being rolled out? Or are they currently being given out at BMQ? Also notice They're Infantry. I remember reading that Infantry will be the first to get them which makes sense.


----------



## McG (31 Oct 2014)

The new uniforms are now available.  They are not being issued to groups based on a priority (so, infantry is not first).  New recruits will get these issued as the first uniform.  Others will get these as their issued uniforms wear-out and need replacement.

I wonder if we will adopt the US practice of using the term "fuzzies" for the no-hook privates now that our new guys now have the bear fuzzy Velcro spot on the front.


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> The new uniforms are now available.  They are not being issued to groups based on a priority (so, infantry is not first).  New recruits will get these issued as the first uniform.  Others will get these as their issued uniforms wear-out and need replacement.
> 
> I wonder if we will adopt the US practice of using the term "fuzzies" for the no-hook privates now that our new guys now have the bear fuzzy Velcro spot on the front.



Oh ok sweet, I wasn't even aware they were being fully issued already. Well that's definitely something to look forward to haha. These compared to the old tops almost makes the old ones look embarassing in my opinion.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> . These compared to the old tops almost makes the old ones look embarassing in my opinion.



May I ask why you think they are "embarrassing"?  We have worn a version of this "embarrassing" uniform for a number of years, and for you to come on here with ZERO time in and criticize it is unacceptable. Wind it in.


----------



## dimsum (31 Oct 2014)

So are outerwear, fleece tops, etc. going to get velcro for the rank patch as well?


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> May I ask why you think they are "embarrassing"?  We have worn a version of this "embarrassing" uniform for a number of years, and for you to come on here with ZERO time in and criticize it is unacceptable. Wind it in.



Lol, I don't know if you misunderstood my message or you're just over reacting. I think we can all agree that Canada's been in need of atleast a new updated combat shirt for awhile now. The old one has a 1x2" canadian flag that's tiny compared to the new ones. They look much better now so you can actually show off to the rest of the world that you're Canadian. The U.S. Army has had the mandarine collar for a few years, we just got flat pockets and those mandarine collars. As well as somethhing to atleast make the wrists tighter compared to the old as well. And for the longest time Canada's been using slip ons for ranks instead of velcro as well. There's also more shoulder room for shooting etc. Clearly Canada was lagging behind in their uniforms a little bit. I wasn't disrespecting the uniform in anyway, I was saying how the uniform appeared to be in need of an update for quite awhile.


----------



## dimsum (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> Lol, I don't know if you misunderstood my message or you're just over reacting. I think we can all agree that Canada's been in need of atleast a new updated combat shirt for awhile now. The old one has a 1x2" canadian flag that's tiny compared to the new ones. They look much better now so you can actually show off to the rest of the world that you're Canadian. The U.S. Army has had the mandarine collar for a few years, we just got flat pockets and those mandarine collars. As well as somethhing to atleast make the wrists tighter compared to the old as well. And for the longest time Canada's been using slip one for ranks instead of Velcro as well. There's also more shoulder room for shooting etc. Clearly Canada was lagging behind in their uniforms a little bit. I wasn't disrespecting the uniform in anyway, I was saying how the uniform appeared to be in need of an update for quite a bit.



I'm fairly certain that most other militaries know we're Canadian, regardless of the size of our flag.  That 1x2 flag is also the same flag that we put on our outerwear, flying suits and Naval Combat Dress - so those who wear CADPAT will need two different sizes of flags?  Same goes with the slip-ons - our outerwear and flying suits are fitted for slip-ons, so now folks will need both the slip-ons and the velcro ranks.  Bit of a duplication.

I do like the flat pockets, sleeve pockets and the collar though.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (31 Oct 2014)

Very many thanks for the enlightenment, Moore. 

As an old retired sea salt, I was thoroughly unaware that the Army was in a Combat Uniform race with the United States, that our soldiers were in a Biggest di** race with everybody else on flag size, or that Velcro was inherently better than other methods of attaching ranks to uniforms.

I'll go to bed less stupid, I guess.


----------



## George Wallace (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> Lol, I don't know if you misunderstood my message or you're just over reacting. I think we can all agree that Canada's been in need of atleast a new updated combat shirt for awhile now. The old one has a 1x2" canadian flag that's tiny compared to the new ones. They look much better now so you can actually show off to the rest of the world that you're Canadian. The U.S. Army has had the mandarine collar for a few years, we just got flat pockets and those mandarine collars. As well as somethhing to atleast make the wrists tighter compared to the old as well. And for the longest time Canada's been using slip one for ranks instead of Velcro as well. There's also more shoulder room for shooting etc. Clearly Canada was lagging behind in their uniforms a little bit. I wasn't disrespecting the uniform in anyway, I was saying how the uniform appeared to be in need of an update for quite a bit.



Flat pockets and NO cargo pockets on the shirts is not new.  We had those in the Mid '80's.  They did not catch on very well.  Then there were the "RSM Rules", which differed from unit to unit, as to whether or not the shirt should be tucked in or not.  

As for a big honking Canadian Flag; is that really necessary?  Unless required operationally, as in the past, it looks more like an "ego trip" to me, and a gaudy one at that.  Once it is "subdued" it just becomes another LARGE patch that can easily be torn off while going through confined spaces.  The 1" X 2" red and white flag still stands out on the uniform, even at a distance (probably the reason we designed the subdued pattern flags).


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Very many thanks for the enlightenment, Moore.
> 
> As an old retired sea salt, I was thoroughly unaware that the Army was in a Combat Uniform race with the United States, that our soldiers were in a Biggest di** race with everybody else on flag size, or that Velcro was inherently better than other methods of attaching ranks to uniforms.
> 
> I'll go to bed less stupid, I guess.



Hahaha. I was just stating my opinion on what I liked about the new combats and if you literally held them side by side then I don't think many people would be choosing the old one but that's just what I think. I'm sorry for using the word embarassing as well, I should've used another word. I'm just putting my opinion on the new uniforms v. Old and I'm getting attacked on here for that. 



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Flat pockets and NO cargo pockets on the shirts is not new.  We had those in the Mid '80's.  They did not catch on very well.  Then there were the "RSM Rules", which differed from unit to unit, as to whether or not the shirt should be tucked in or not.
> 
> As for a big honking Canadian Flag; is that really necessary?  Unless required operationally, as in the past, it looks more like an "ego trip" to me, and a gaudy one at that.  Once it is "subdued" it just becomes another LARGE patch that can easily be torn off while going through confined spaces.  The 1" X 2" red and white flag still stands out on the uniform, even at a distance (probably the reason we designed the subdued pattern flags).



George, I wasn't aware that there were flat pockets floating around since the mid 80s. I was aware that our old new shirts do have them though on the sleeves if I'm correct. Currently all of my opinions are based off of what Canadian civilians and myself see when they see the people defending their country. If it were in a combat role then I agree to a subdued flag maybe 2 toned green would be better. I also think having one flag on each shoulder is a little to much to if they're still doing that. Thanks for sharing your information with me.


----------



## PMedMoe (31 Oct 2014)

If you're so proud of being *C*anadian and showing it off with a huge flag, maybe you could try capitalizing the word.   :

I, for one, hope my old uniforms don't wear out before I release.


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> If you're so proud of being *C*anadian and showing it off with a huge flag, maybe you could try capitalizing the word.   :
> 
> I, for one, hope my old uniforms don't wear out before I release.



So everyone that likes the new flags should try capitalizing the world? Makes sense. If you're going to try being a smart ass atleast have a real point about what I posted not something about a bigger canadian flag.


----------



## PMedMoe (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> So everyone that likes the new flags should try capitalizing the world?








 :facepalm:

I was referring to capitalizing _proper_ nouns like Canada, Canadian....


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> I was referring to capitalizing _proper_ nouns like Canada, Canadian....



My bad. Misread your post. Sorry for not capitalizing.


----------



## Loachman (31 Oct 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I, for one, hope my old uniforms don't wear out before I release.



It's alright, Moe.

In about forty years, a cabal of decrepit, semi-senile Honourary Colonels and the like will conspire to "restore" the old, smaller, less-gaudy Canadian flags to a generation of troops who have never worn them and this will generate an unbelievable level of political support. "We must have slip-ons back, too, to honour our Vets who died in Afghanistan while wearing slip-ons".


----------



## MJP (31 Oct 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> It's alright, Moe.
> 
> In about forty years, a cabal of decrepit, semi-senile Honourary Colonels and the like will conspire to "restore" the old, smaller, less-gaudy Canadian flags to a generation of troops who have never worn them and this will generate an unbelievable level of political support. "We must have slip-ons back, too, to honour our Vets who died in Afghanistan while wearing slip-ons".



I almost laughed, then realized that everything you said is horrifyingly true.  I guess there will always be deck chairs to rearrange on the Titanic.


----------



## quadrapiper (31 Oct 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> It's alright, Moe.
> 
> In about forty years, a cabal of decrepit, semi-senile Honourary Colonels and the like will conspire to "restore" the old, smaller, less-gaudy Canadian flags to a generation of troops who have never worn them and this will generate an unbelievable level of political support. "We must have slip-ons back, too, to honour our Vets who died in Afghanistan while wearing slip-ons".


Will anyone think of the Decade of Darkness and Cold War contingent? Those slip-ons must be worn on a ratty, baggy, and monotone uniform, with hard-soled boots!


----------



## Privateer (31 Oct 2014)

Jokes aside, what is the reasons for switching from slip-on rank to velcro rank?  To remove a button beneath protective vests?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (31 Oct 2014)

Materials may change but there is only so many variation in design you can have with a uniform designed for combat.


----------



## slayer/raptor (31 Oct 2014)

Having the new top (and having to wear CANADA instead of unit identifier cause they aren't ready yet :facepalm, I noticed no real difference under FFO (plates and all). I do like the flat pockets for the chest and hips. The pen holders are useless though. Also the velcro wrist straps are a welcomed addition.


----------



## Carpenteer (31 Oct 2014)

Velcro on the new ranks. . . .must be because officers hate taking forever on parade trying to fumble with the button when giving out promotions.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> Lol, I don't know if you misunderstood my message or you're just over reacting. I think we can all agree that Canada's been in need of atleast a new updated combat shirt for awhile now. The old one has a 1x2" canadian flag that's tiny compared to the new ones. They look much better now so you can actually show off to the rest of the world that you're Canadian. The U.S. Army has had the mandarine collar for a few years, we just got flat pockets and those mandarine collars. As well as somethhing to atleast make the wrists tighter compared to the old as well. And for the longest time Canada's been using slip ons for ranks instead of velcro as well. There's also more shoulder room for shooting etc. Clearly Canada was lagging behind in their uniforms a little bit. I wasn't disrespecting the uniform in anyway, I was saying how the uniform appeared to be in need of an update for quite awhile.



So all things from the U.S. Army are good right? I'll be one of many to tell you that slavishly copying any other army is unwise.

So tell me what experience you have with shooting? And how do we have more shoulder room than before?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (31 Oct 2014)

Well at least getting your new rank up by morning won't require sewing while drunk..


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> So all things from the U.S. Army are good right? I'll be one of many to tell you that slavishly copying any other army is unwise.
> 
> So tell me what experience you have with shooting? And how do we have more shoulder room than before?



Canada didn't necessarily copy, instead they did something that's common sense and that benefits the soldiers. I have no experience shooting but it doesn't take a genius to figure out you can move your arms further back and further forward with the new combats thanks to the extra material hidden in the back of the shirt known as the "action-back". This is used for un restrictive movement. That way you're not ripping your uniform or feeling like you're wearing something way to small. I'm not sure why you're even trying to argue with me or what you're trying to prove because either way it's all my opinion anyways. Maybe you should be the one "winding it down"


----------



## Loachman (31 Oct 2014)

Privateer said:
			
		

> Jokes aside, what is the reasons for switching from slip-on rank to velcro rank?  To remove a button beneath protective vests?



Every seam or other sewing operation on a piece of clothing costs money. Simplifying construction, then, saves money. If you consider all of the different actions required to construct just the strap and slip-on, which includes manually turning each one outside-in after stitching, and then more stitching, you should be able to see how all of this adds up. Stitching a rectangle of velcro on, and machine-embroidering a patch and sewing another piece of velcro onto that, is much cheaper.

Boxy pockets also add to the cost, as do buttons (especially the method by which current ones are attached) and buttonholes.


----------



## Loachman (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> I have no experience shooting but it doesn't take a genius to figure out you can move your arms further back with the new combats thanks to the extra material hidden in the back of the shirt known as the "action-back". This is used for un restrictive movement. That way you're not ripping your uniform or feeling like you're wearing something way to small.



There are many of us here who have done a lot of shooting. I've never felt restricted by my combat or flying clothing while shooting or doing anything else vigorous over forty-one years of doing these things. I do not recall ever hearing anybody else comment about such imaginary restrictions, either - presuming that they are not wearing something grossly undersized. I've never ripped a uniform doing these things. Ever. If an item of clothing feels "way to [sic] small", then it is, and should be exchanged for one of the proper size.



			
				Moore said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why you're even trying to argue with me or what you're trying to prove because either way it's all my opinion anyways.



Opinions, as we say, are like anal orifices. Everybody has one.

There is a huge difference between an opinion and an informed opinion. Your opinion, as precious as it may be to you, is based upon nothing, as you have admitted. We tend not to value those very much.



			
				Moore said:
			
		

> Maybe you should be the one "winding it down"



Hilarious.

Have you had a look at Jim Seggie's profile at all?

You'll meet a few like him, presuming that you are accepted and get very far into your training.

I'd love to be present when you suggest to one of them, face-to-face, that they should "wind it down".


----------



## noneck (31 Oct 2014)

There was a post on here not so long ago about the U.S. Army blouse that our new Cbt shirt is based on. It seems that the majority of improvements that we are adopting ( collar, Velcro, cut) has been binned by the yanks and they are going to redesign the shirt. :facepalm:


----------



## Franko (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> Canada didn't necessarily copy, instead they did something that's common sense and that benefits the soldiers. I have no experience shooting but it doesn't take a genius to figure out you can move your arms further back and further forward with the new combats thanks to the extra material hidden in the back of the shirt known as the "action-back". This is used for un restrictive movement. That way you're not ripping your uniform or feeling like you're wearing something way to small. I'm not sure why you're even trying to argue with me or what you're trying to prove because either way it's all my opinion anyways. Maybe you should be the one "winding it down"



Let's just say, wearing the frag vest negates any improvement in mobility(that someone that isn't even in ) may perceive. 

Read more civvy, post less.

Regards


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Oct 2014)

noneck said:
			
		

> There was a post on here not so long ago about the U.S. Army blouse that our new Cbt shirt is based on. It seems that the majority of improvements that we are adopting ( collar, Velcro, cut) has been binned by the yanks and they are going to redesign the shirt. :facepalm:



Slavishly and without thought we have adopted something that may be useless.


----------



## noneck (31 Oct 2014)

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20140812/NEWS07/308120054/Changes-your-combat-uniform

Here is a link to the article.....wouldn't want leave the rumour unsourced!


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Oct 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> Canada didn't necessarily copy, instead they did something that's common sense and that benefits the soldiers. I have no experience shooting



You should have shut up after typing this.


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> You should have shut up after typing this.



Yea I realize that now.


----------



## Loachman (31 Oct 2014)

I thank you for that admission.

Good luck with your application and your career.


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

Thanks, Loachman. Sorry Jim Seggie for the disrespect and to everyone else. I'll admit my first post wasn't very well written and I didn't mean any trouble at all. I'll clear it up and simply say I personally like the appearance of the new uniforms and that's all I should've said in my first post.


----------



## Loachman (31 Oct 2014)

You're welcome.

I thought that the shirt had merit, too, but mainly for the relative simplicity of manufacture rather than a significant increase in utility, having read criticisms of the US uniform. Having now seen it, and listened to reviews from the wearers (an admittedly small sampling), that simplicity appears to be the only gain.

And few seem to like the larger flag, as it is grotesquely bright on a combat uniform. I never thought that I'd complain about a Canadian flag until I saw this.


----------



## Carpenteer (31 Oct 2014)

I personally like the massive flag, it shouts O'Canada from miles around. I also have not worn it and my opinion is not worth anything until I'm forced to wear it and come up with an informed opinion. But on another note, when exchanging flags with the americans I've always felt like I'm ripping them off.


----------



## dimsum (31 Oct 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I never thought that I'd complain about a Canadian flag until I saw this.



Same.  But, as I'm sure when we transitioned from OD to CADPAT (I was one of the last Basic courses to wear ODs), in a few years no one will bat an eye.


----------



## medicineman (31 Oct 2014)

Those huge flags were in vogue while I was with UNPROFOR in 1994 - I hated them then and I continue to hate them now that they're back.  

 :2c:

MM


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Oct 2014)

Moore you should get into shooting it's a lot of fun.

Big fan of the Mandarin collar.


----------



## Moore (31 Oct 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Moore you should get into shooting it's a lot of fun.
> 
> Big fan of the Mandarin collar.



I've thought about it but I don't know anyone who does. I'd need to go about getting a license or something before even going to a firing range I'd assume. I'd also not have the slightest clue as to what I'm doing. And I agree, I like the collar as well for both it's down and upwards positions.


----------



## Ayrsayle (1 Nov 2014)

I've had the mixed pleasure of being issued two of the new shirts, and my take is as follows - My two cents:

Sleeves: The forearm "pocket" for pens is ingenious, I like always having a pen easily on hand while in the field.  The velcro that secures the opening however is hit or miss - sometimes they are snug and secure, other times they start migrating out through the velcro.  Either way, definitely a welcome addition.  The flat biceps pocket I find a little difficult to use (smallish, and the zipper is a little awkward to use - especially with gloves).  The giant velcro patch is stiff, and the large Canadian flag doesn't really help with the issue either.  I found the velcro patches tended to catch on the nametape as well.

Neck: The Mandarin Collar I haven't gotten much use out of yet, but I can see the benefits of having it while also wearing the flak vest (preventing the chafing that usually seems to occur).  The velcro patches seem to hook other clothing (when say, trying to wash or dry them) and due to their design there will always be one patch semi-exposed.

Torso: The lack of draw strings is a welcome addition through the torso, though for individuals who are more robust around the middle will find them less flattering then the older style.  They are now held tight by elastic, which seems very snug by design.  The flat "cargo" pockets on the front are much smaller, but less difficult to wear under the flak vest.  Same with the flat chest pockets (easier to access then the biceps pocket due to having two hands available, etc). 

All in all I can see the benefits for the combat arms (notably the easy access to pens, and the flat design through the torso), but the giant flag and excessive use of velcro in general are less then ideal (in my opinion - very noisy / flashy).  All in all though, I think its a worthwhile upgrade from the previous.


----------



## McG (1 Nov 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> And few seem to like the larger flag, as it is grotesquely bright on a combat uniform. I never thought that I'd complain about a Canadian flag until I saw this.


Wait until you see it on soldiers in the field who are otherwise all camouflaged.
I guess taking it off and being with no flag was not an option.


----------



## George Wallace (1 Nov 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> Wait until you see it on soldiers in the field who are otherwise all camouflaged.
> I guess taking it off and being with no flag was not an option.



But there are ( or should be ) subdued ones, and perhaps IR ones.  Then again, when you really want to find them, all you have to do is look for the "Blue Rockets".


----------



## Moore (1 Nov 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> But there are ( or should be ) subdued ones, and perhaps IR ones.  Then again, when you really want to find them, all you have to do is look for the "Blue Rockets".



May I ask what the term "Blue Rockets" means? I also agree you guys should have subdued flags, but I'm sure it doesn't take long for a new flag to get dirty and not as noticeable after being out in the field for a long while?


----------



## Offstar1029 (1 Nov 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> May I ask what the term "Blue Rockets" means? I also agree you guys should have subdued flags, but I'm sure it doesn't take long for a new flag to get dirty and not as noticeable after being out in the field for a long while?


I think it's a portable toilet.


----------



## RedcapCrusader (1 Nov 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> May I ask what the term "Blue Rockets" means? I also agree you guys should have subdued flags, but I'm sure it doesn't take long for a new flag to get dirty and not as noticeable after being out in the field for a long while?



You're not supposed to wear the red and white in the field, if it gets dirty its supposed to be replaced. Even the red and white when dirty is highly noticeable. There's IR and subdued flags for the field.

Blue rockets are the porta-shitters found in many training sites, ranges throughout Canada


----------



## Moore (1 Nov 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> You're not supposed to wear the red and white in the field, if it gets dirty its supposed to be replaced. Even the red and white when dirty is highly noticeable. There's IR and subdued flags for the field.
> 
> Blue rockets are the porta-shitters found in many training sites, ranges throughout Canada



Ok thanks for answering my question. I've yet to see any pictures of these subdued flags.


----------



## George Wallace (1 Nov 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> Ok thanks for answering my question. I've yet to see any pictures of these subdued flags.



That's what camouflage is supposed to do......Makes it harder for you to see it.


----------



## acen (1 Nov 2014)

The new subdued flags wont be in the system for a while. We were told to use IR flags for now.


----------



## George Wallace (1 Nov 2014)

acen said:
			
		

> The new subdued flags wont be in the system for a while. We were told to use IR flags for now.



CP Gear......... >


----------



## RangerRay (1 Nov 2014)

EGADS those flags look horrible!  WTF, over?   

Will this new ICU be restricted to field duty, or will we see everyone (army, RCAF, RCN) wearing these uniforms for office duty too?


----------



## Loachman (1 Nov 2014)

This replaces the current combat uniform.


----------



## acen (1 Nov 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> CP Gear......... >



The new subdued flag looks like it will be much different than your typical subdued green version. It seems to incorporate some IR elements (the red portion of the flag would be IR black) and the rest would be OD or CADPAT. I don't have the soldier system initiatives .ppt with me at the moment but it is quite different from what you would expect. Something along the lines of this: http://oneshottactical.com/products/ssp-cfir


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Nov 2014)

Moore check your inbox.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (3 Nov 2014)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> Will this new ICU be restricted to field duty, or will we see everyone (army, RCAF, RCN) wearing these uniforms for office duty too?



Don't know about the RCAF, but in the RCN, we have our own combat uniform, the NCD (Naval Combat Dress), and specialized dress for boarding parties, so we only get issued and wear the "Army" combat uniform if we actually have to go in the field on land operations and we return them right after. As for office work, generally in the Navy if you do purely office work, you wear "office" dress, which means you wear your DEU as dress of the day.


----------



## PMedMoe (3 Nov 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> It's alright, Moe.
> 
> In about forty years, a cabal of decrepit, semi-senile Honourary Colonels and the like will conspire to "restore" the old, smaller, less-gaudy Canadian flags to a generation of troops who have never worn them and this will generate an unbelievable level of political support. "We must have slip-ons back, too, to honour our Vets who died in Afghanistan while wearing slip-ons".



And I'll be laughing about it on a beach somewhere down south.  If I'm still alive....


----------



## Loachman (3 Nov 2014)

You'll still be well shy of three digits, so you should be alright.

Especially if they're serving preservatives refreshments on that beach.


----------



## Marchog (3 Nov 2014)

These things must be very new. Nobody on my own BMQ course was issued one,  but I saw maybe 10% of a newer course wearing them. I confess I find the flags butt-ugly.


----------



## MeatheadMick (6 Nov 2014)

Moore said:
			
		

> New tops finally being rolled out? Or are they currently being given out at BMQ? Also notice They're Infantry. I remember reading that Infantry will be the first to get them which makes sense.



Oh christ, that photo and all the hashtags make me a little sick... Serious case of FNG...

Noticed so far that it's just the Army getting the upgrade. Haven't seen any Air or Navy purple trades with the new tops yet.


----------



## jackmomma (6 Nov 2014)

A few guys in my reserve BMQ were issued them as well.


----------



## ArmyRick (6 Nov 2014)

Does it really matter about size of the flag? Type of pockets or flaps? Velcro or no velcro rank?

For people not even in the forces yet, please stop worrying about BLOODY FASHION statement. Besides, nothing looks sexier than a ghillie suit. Seriously, what make you effective as a soldier? Physical fitness, mental toughness, current and relevant training, lots of weapons handling and shooting. More shooting. Loads more shooting. Plenty of exercises to practice the skills. I still have the CADPAT that is nothing more than the old OD uniforms with CADPAT pattern instead of green. I still have one shirt left with buttons exposed. Did this make me a less relevant soldier on my last ex? Hells no.

In fact, this old dinosaur, Rickasaurus Gruntis, was required to teach young privates, corporals and new MASTER corporals how to do fighting patrols and patrol base routine.

Lets not focus on the peas and keep eyes on the steak please. Selection and Maintenance of the aim.


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Nov 2014)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> ...Lets not focus on the peas and keep eyes on the steak please. Selection and Maintenance of the aim.





Hey now!  Was that a Principle of War you just quoted there, ArmyRick?


----------



## ArmyRick (6 Nov 2014)

Indeed it was!


----------



## Loachman (7 Nov 2014)

Just imagine what could happen if other people started using those things.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Nov 2014)

I suspect in the field guntape will be covering the flag. As for the details of the uniform, feedback on what works and does not is important to improving the design.


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Nov 2014)

Isn't it Velcro? Just take it off


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Nov 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Isn't it Velcro? Just take it off



That's what I was thinking....


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Nov 2014)

Better yet who really cares?


----------



## George Wallace (7 Nov 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> That's what I was thinking....



Never just go with the simplest solution.   >


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Nov 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Never just go with the simplest solution.   >



Hey!  I'm not at work.  I'm allowed to be logical.   :nod:


----------



## George Wallace (7 Nov 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Hey!  I'm not at work.  I'm allowed to be logical.   :nod:



Logical....Common Sense.....You know what they say..... ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Nov 2014)

I can't wait for big black and green IR flags to sneekaly replace the big red and white ones and all the O-groups to follow.


----------



## PMedMoe (7 Nov 2014)

soccerplayer131 said:
			
		

> Now, this is my uninformed civilian point of view, but to the person/people above suggesting just not wearing any flag, is this not a violation of the Geneva Convention? I believe a flag from your country of origin must be worn.



In the training area during a field ex, I hardly think it's an issue.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Logical....Common Sense.....You know what they say..... ;D



Yeah, I'm not allowed to be logical at work.  That's why I do it at home.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Nov 2014)

soccerplayer131 said:
			
		

> Now, this is my uninformed civilian point of view, but to the person/people above suggesting just not wearing any flag, is this not a violation of the Geneva Convention? I believe a flag from your country of origin must be worn.



It's not a requirement in the Geneva Conventions.

Also Canada doesn't follow the conventions on PWs to the letter.   :-X


----------



## dangerboy (7 Nov 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It's not a requirement in the Geneva Conventions.
> 
> Also Canada doesn't follow the conventions on PWs to the letter.   :-X



Why do you say that?  What parts of the conventions and additional protocols did we not follow?


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Nov 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I can't wait for big black and green IR flags to sneekaly replace the big red and white ones and all the O-groups to follow.


Saw a guy at the dining hall a few days ago with big red flag left, and IR green flag right side. Extra sure he was a Canadian now.


----------



## Ayrsayle (7 Nov 2014)

Caveat: I am not a legal expert.  In my opinion I have a somewhat more informed view having taken courses on the Law of Armed Conflict (which included looking at the Hague and Geneva Conventions, etc and how they relate to conflicts).

Absolutely no where is it stated that military members have to wear a nations flag anywhere, or at any time.  I'm paraphrasing, but the requirement relates to "does this person qualify for PW status under the convention" - a military member must be able to be distinguished as a member of a military force of a nation (wearing a uniform that set it apart from other actors).  Wearing CADPAT would meet this requirement.  Military members are even allowed to not wear a uniform, but run the risk of being considered a spy and conducting espionage (which invalidates their right to PW status).

Without going too far down the rabbit hole - it is true that Canada has not ratified all the protocols and amendments that would fall into your argument. I'd suggest cracking open the books to fully grasp the absolute claim you are attempting to make.  There is a reason why we have Legal experts who deal with these exact questions - they are (usually) not black and white.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Nov 2014)

soccerplayer131 said:
			
		

> As a country who was present at, and signed all Geneva Conventions, if an individual Canadian soldier or unit has broken the Geneva Convention, then they are required to be court martialed, and face serious consequences if found guilty.
> 
> If the CF as a whole have been breaking the GC regarding treatment of PWs, then they can and should be brought before the ICC and face charges for war crimes.



Very nice. Let me know how that works out in the real world.

I'm not dismissing your opinion....jus saying maybe you should tone down the indignation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Nov 2014)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Why do you say that?  What parts of the conventions and additional protocols did we not follow?



I'll have to look for my copy of the conventions but there are a few examples where we don't follow them to the letter. Such as what the Geneva conventions say PWs must disclose (name rank military [service] number) and what Canadians are trained to disclose. If I recall correctly we give 2 or 3 extra tidbits of info.  Not earth shattering by any extent but not following the conventions to the letter either.


----------



## MeatheadMick (8 Nov 2014)

So, has anyone seen purple trades that are air force or navy in this yet? So far it's just the army guys wearing the new digs. I'm pretty sure if I go hand in my ragged ass combat cozies, I won't be issued the new one, even if they don't have my size in stock because I wear a blue t-shirt in Garrison. Vern, you hear anything about the scale of issue for the new tops?


----------



## TCM621 (8 Nov 2014)

MeatheadMick said:
			
		

> So, has anyone seen purple trades that are air force or navy in this yet? So far it's just the army guys wearing the new digs. I'm pretty sure if I go hand in my ragged *** combat cozies, I won't be issued the new one, even if they don't have my size in stock because I wear a blue t-shirt in Garrison. Vern, you hear anything about the scale of issue for the new tops?


They have them in Comox now.  I saw them at stores last week.


----------



## MeatheadMick (8 Nov 2014)

Wonder if they are just waiting on OD and Blue velcro slip ons patches lol


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View (8 Nov 2014)

The RCAF rank Velcro patch is the same color as the current slip-on, except the border of the Velcro patch is also air force blue color.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Nov 2014)

soccerplayer131 said:
			
		

> Now, this is my uninformed civilian point of view, but to the person/people above suggesting just not wearing any flag, is this not a violation of the Geneva Convention? I believe a flag from your country of origin must be worn.



Sometimes it is better to wear a sanatized uniform.


----------



## x_para76 (10 Nov 2014)

I have an obvious bias but IMO the Brit uniform looks more professional with the shirt tucked into the pants, and a stable belt while in garrison. 

Clearly we're not going to introduce stable belts here as that would add an unnecessary cost but the shirt tucked in could have been done. However, I'm quite sure the CF members whose physique resembles that of a pear would be quite opposed to it.


----------



## REDinstaller (10 Nov 2014)

Have you seen the new MTP? No more tucking it in


----------



## x_para76 (10 Nov 2014)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Have you seen the new MTP? No more tucking it in


I'm assuming your either being sarcastic or aren't referring to the Brit uniform.


----------



## REDinstaller (10 Nov 2014)

Mixed bag


----------



## x_para76 (11 Nov 2014)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Mixed bag



It looks like that photo was taken in an operational theatre. 

Here is a picture of the paras during Remembrance Day ceremonies in Colchester. Their shirts are all tucked in which is how the combat uniform is worn while in garrison. IMO it makes for a more professional looking working dress.


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Nov 2014)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Mixed bag




The Brits have always taken _uniformity_ very, very seriously  :sarcasm:  which means that every regiment and corps has unique kit and within most everyone tries very hard to not dress the same as the next fellow.


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Nov 2014)

X_para76 said:
			
		

> It looks like that photo was taken in an operational theatre.
> 
> Here is a picture of the paras during Remembrance Day ceremonies in Colchester. Their shirts are all tucked in which is how the combat uniform is worn while in garrison. IMO it makes for a more professional looking working dress.


I suppose that makes up for the giant heads of hair they like to sport.


----------



## x_para76 (11 Nov 2014)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I suppose that makes up for the giant heads of hair they like to sport.



I can't argue with that. The officers do tend to grow rather outrageous coiff's.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (11 Nov 2014)

Military air cuts "evolve" with time:

See at min. 0:58 = US Navy air cuts of the 1960's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SwgU42XSpw


----------



## dimsum (12 Nov 2014)

X_para76 said:
			
		

> It looks like that photo was taken in an operational theatre.
> 
> Here is a picture of the paras during Remembrance Day ceremonies in Colchester. Their shirts are all tucked in which is how the combat uniform is worn while in garrison. IMO it makes for a more professional looking working dress.



I'm surprised that the British Army would wear operational clothing during ceremonies such as Remembrance Day.  

As for tucking/not tucking in shirts, IMO the USMC manages to look working dress look professional and likely more comfortable as well:


----------



## vonGarvin (12 Nov 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The Brits have always taken _uniformity_ very, very seriously  :sarcasm:  which means that every regiment and corps has unique kit and within most everyone tries very hard to not dress the same as the next fellow.



We have a Brit exchange officer here.  He tries to not dress the same from day to day!


----------



## RedcapCrusader (19 Nov 2014)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm surprised that the British Army would wear operational clothing during ceremonies such as Remembrance Day.
> 
> As for tucking/not tucking in shirts, IMO the USMC manages to look working dress look professional and likely more comfortable as well:



The USMC also has way more money, more staff, and able to offer more sizes. Leaving smaller militaries like Canada, left with a small selection of uniforms and sizes so that small people end up with uniforms that are 2 sizes too large.


----------



## dimsum (19 Nov 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> The USMC also has way more money, more staff, and able to offer more sizes. Leaving smaller militaries like Canada, left with a small selection of uniforms and sizes so that small people end up with uniforms that are 2 sizes too large.



Fair - on second thought, the USMC wasn't the best comparison.  I'd say the Australian Defence Force is the most similar (budget, staff, etc.) and their uniforms are broadly similar to that cut.  I work with RAAF folks on the large and small end of the spectrum and they don't seem to have much of a problem getting decently-fitting uniforms.  

*Note:  I'm not suggesting each service having their own combat uniform "just because" - that's what the RAAF did essentially for brand recognition.


----------



## RedcapCrusader (19 Nov 2014)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Fair - on second thought, the USMC wasn't the best comparison.  I'd say the Australian Defence Force is the most similar (budget, staff, etc.) and their uniforms are broadly similar to that cut.  I work with RAAF folks on the large and small end of the spectrum and they don't seem to have much of a problem getting decently-fitting uniforms.
> 
> *Note:  I'm not suggesting each service having their own combat uniform "just because" - that's what the RAAF did essentially for brand recognition.



Which then comes down to the poor management of our poor procurement and supply system.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Nov 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> Which then comes down to the poor management of our poor procurement and supply system.



When troops are buying their own boots because we cannot issue them, there is a huge issue.


----------



## dimsum (19 Nov 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> When troops are buying their own boots because we cannot issue them, there is a huge issue.



Agreed.  That is not on.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Nov 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> When troops are buying their own boots because we cannot issue them, there is a huge issue.



100% accurate point.  

As a PO2 Suptech it is embarrassing that we cannot issue simple things like boots to sailors/soldiers/airmen.  I know the issue lays deeper than the 00168 (911) folks but we have to be the ones to bare the brunt of the bewilderment when we tell people no boots for you...


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Nov 2014)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> 100% accurate point.
> 
> As a PO2 Suptech it is embarrassing that we cannot issue simple things like boots to sailors/soldiers/airmen.  I know the issue lays deeper than the 00168 (911) folks but we have to be the ones to bare the brunt of the bewilderment when we tell people no boots for you...



As leaders we have to ensure that are troops are properly kitted out and trained and administered. Anything less is a failure.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Nov 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> As leaders we have to ensure that are troops are properly kitted out and trained and administered. Anything less is a failure.


+1000

Just curious as a taxpayer, here:  is this happening in the odd spot here across Canada (suggesting local glitches), or all over the place (suggesting issues higher up the chain)?


----------



## George Wallace (19 Nov 2014)

The shortage of boots is not new.  It has been going on for several years now.  Before that problem arose, we saw a problem with cap badge, where the Supply System had run out of various cap badges.  Some organizations were able to cover those shortages through their Kit Shops, but this called for the expense to come out of non-public funds by the unit or out of pocket by the individual.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Nov 2014)

I'm also remembering the mukluk shortage, too, discussed just as vehemently here.


----------



## McG (19 Nov 2014)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I'm also remembering the mukluk shortage, too, discussed just as vehemently here.


That shortage is not resolved.


----------



## sandyson (19 Nov 2014)

In the '72, I did an Air Defence Command review of uniform shortages for air defence radar stations. Airmen were wearing civilian parkas to keep warm but the service (then the new tri-service) refused to buy any military winter clothing. They would buy new 'greens' and anything else made for walking out, but not operational winter clothing. I made lots of noise but was shown the door.


----------



## blackberet17 (19 Nov 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Before that problem arose, we saw a problem with cap badge, where the Supply System had run out of various cap badges.  Some organizations were able to cover those shortages through their Kit Shops, but this called for the expense to come out of non-public funds by the unit or out of pocket by the individual.


Yep. We're short at both levels, NCMs and Offrs.

And there's also the apparent shortage of CDs, too.


----------



## slayer/raptor (7 Dec 2014)

Anyone on here know if the new rank velcro patch will have unit "hi-vis" identifiers sewn on (similar to what we have now) or will the unit name be sewn directly onto the patch? I'm thinking of ordering one from CP gear since I'm getting tired of wearing Canada.

Thanks.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2014)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Anyone on here know if the new rank velcro patch will have unit "hi-vis" identifiers sewn on (similar to what we have now) or will the unit name be sewn directly onto the patch? I'm thinking of ordering one from CP gear since I'm getting tired of wearing Canada.
> 
> Thanks.



I do believe they will be in hi-vis....


----------



## slayer/raptor (7 Dec 2014)

Roger they will be in Hi-vis, but will it be a unit identify flash (as in a piece of cloth) or just the letters will be directly embroidered in the patch.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2014)

The ones I have seen are like the current in-service ones...


----------



## Bzzliteyr (9 Dec 2014)

Same. They will sew the identifier on to the slip on from what I understand.

In fact 12 RBC has an issue with the ones the G4 produced. They made the 12e at the bottom instead of 12ᵉ at the top.


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (15 Dec 2014)

I returned from my last trip to the local clothing store with 5 brown t-shirts. While I was at the counter, I asked the clark if they were issuing the new combat uniform. His answer was priceless : ''Not to you, sir. We don't have your rank patches in stock''.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2014)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> I returned from my last trip to the local clothing store with 5 brown t-shirts. While I was at the counter, I asked the clark if they were issuing the new combat uniform. His answer was priceless : ''Not to you, sir. We don't have your rank patches in stock''.



Right then..... Soundslike a Monty Python skit


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (16 Dec 2014)

The cheese shop?


----------



## StarFury (16 Dec 2014)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> I returned from my last trip to the local clothing store with 5 brown t-shirts. While I was at the counter, I asked the clark if they were issuing the new combat uniform. His answer was priceless : ''Not to you, sir. We don't have your rank patches in stock''.



An answer that's both practical and honest at least...


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2014)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> The cheese shop?



More like the Norwegian Blue Parrot that's "pinin for the fjords"


----------



## blackberet17 (16 Dec 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> More like the Norwegian Blue Parrot that's "pinin for the fjords"



Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it, Major? Beautiful plumage!


----------



## Newt (16 Dec 2014)

He never wanted to be a supply tech in the first place. He wanted to be... a lumberjack!


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr (17 Dec 2014)

Last year, the government spent less on the Ministry of silly walks than it did on national defense!


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Dec 2014)

Bring out yer dead! Bring out yer dead!


----------



## blackberet17 (18 Dec 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Bring out yer dead! Bring out yer dead!



Is switching movies allowed?  ;D


----------



## cryco (18 Dec 2014)

only if you bring back a .... shrubbery


----------



## BorisK (18 Dec 2014)

And cut the mightiest tree in the forest down with....


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Dec 2014)

BorisK said:
			
		

> And cut the mightiest tree in the forest down with....



A HERRING!


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Dec 2014)

Death to Velcro.... 

Seriously, why are we not following the US example here? I need quick access to ammo pouches, not pockets....


U.S. Army to reduce Velcro on combat uniforms but Canadian Army keeps the same material on its clothes

The U.S. Army is making six changes to its combat uniform that include stripping Velcro from the sleeve pocket, elbow patches, knee patches and lower leg pocket flap, the Army Times is reporting. The service is also considering five additional fixes because soldiers asked for them, Sergeant Major of the Army Raymond Chandler, the service’s top enlisted official told the newspaper.

“Velcro has been controversial,” Chandler said. “We had Velcro on the wrists and our war fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan really had some concerns with noise discipline when they were in close proximity to the enemy. So we went to a button.”

The Canadian Army, however, does not have the same concerns.

“Within the Canadian Army, current combat uniform pattern places little reliance on the use of Velcro aside from identification purposes, such as name tags,” army public affairs officer Capt. Valerie Lanouette told Defence Watch. “Although our new Enhanced Combat Uniform (ECU) design utilizes more Velcro than the current uniform it continues to use less than the US Army uniform. Primarily, the use of this product continues to be for identification purposes, as these items are not required to be manipulated in a tactical scenario during combat.  To this point, there have been no complaints from soldiers about the noise made by Velcro on the current issued uniform or the ECU.  

The CA has taken a balanced approach on the use of this material between noise and speed of access to items in the combat uniform pockets. Buttons provide much slower access to pockets than Velcro, whereas Velcro creates more noise than buttons.  Therefore, we have no plan to change the amount of Velcro on the new ECU than is currently in production.”

_Link removed as per Site Guidelines_


----------



## RedcapCrusader (19 Dec 2014)

Contract out the uniform design to Arc'teryx. Silent zippers for everyone!


----------



## Messorius (21 Dec 2014)

Save time? Seriously? I can pop or close a button with thumb/two fingers. The velcro on the old uniforms is like friggin superglue, or jams full of fuzz and doesn't stick after a month.


----------



## Loachman (1 Jan 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> To this point, there have been no complaints from soldiers about the noise made by Velcro on the current issued uniform or the ECU.



Capt. Valerie Lanouette has likely not asked anybody who is wearing this. I interrogated the first person that I saw wearing it this past October - an Infantry Corporal. The first part of his review was a lengthy complaint abou the velcro and its various shortcomings including noise.


----------



## clericalchronicals (7 Feb 2015)

So, question for you all, now that the new ICU is being issued here in St-Jean, where would a navy guy get the rank patches for these gucci pieces of kit?

I know CP gear is selling "Canadian Army Rank Patches" on their site, and it says they can accommodate requests for other environments, etc. But are the rank patches the right size, or is there somewhere else I should be looking?

I ask because my size combats are the most common size and are no longer in stock, but until I get rank patches I can't get the new ones...and you can nearly see through my damn combats...lol.

Cheers!


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2015)

Are you talking about getting rank patches with black thread? I've never seen those, just the high-vis white colour that is tri-service.


----------



## clericalchronicals (7 Feb 2015)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are you talking about getting rank patches with black thread? I've never seen those, just the high-vis white colour that is tri-service.



Yes, the navy and air force have environmental patches, olive drab with black thread. The Hi-Vis is army only.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Feb 2015)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> Yes, the navy and air force have environmental patches, olive drab with black thread. The Hi-Vis is army only.



The ICU's use a rank patch not a slip-on and the only ones I have seen are the army version.


----------



## clericalchronicals (7 Feb 2015)

OK, so half of my question has been answered.

Those rounded edge patches are the correct ones?

If yes, I can order the ones I need.

Cheers!


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Feb 2015)

If you have the ICU you should have been issued the patch along with the big flag, if not go back to clothing and ask for them.


----------



## clericalchronicals (7 Feb 2015)

They told me that they do not have the new ICU rank patch for the navy yet.


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2015)

Then wear a white one with Canada. Whatever did we do before someone invented black thread on a slipon? I never knew who was navy or not...


----------



## clericalchronicals (7 Feb 2015)

We aren't allowed to. The hi vis is not tri service. It was only designed to replace the subdued green ranks.

The navy are olive drab with black thread and the Air Force is olive drab with blue thread. 

The whole point of the different colour thread was to respect the CANFORGEN regarding environmental distinction.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Feb 2015)

Well if that's all you got then that's all you got....I still use ENGR SQN/ENGINEERS slipons as we still don't have CER ones yet (and this Regiment was formed 3 years ago!) or high vis Sgt's yet....


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2015)

Doesn't that CANFORGEN also state you should be wearing NCDs unless posted at an Army unit? I didn't know CFLRS was an Army unit.


----------



## TCM621 (7 Feb 2015)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Doesn't that CANFORGEN also state you should be wearing NCDs unless posted at an Army unit? I didn't know CFLRS was an Army unit.


All instructors wear combats, regardless of element.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (7 Feb 2015)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Doesn't that CANFORGEN also state you should be wearing NCDs unless posted at an Army unit? I didn't know CFLRS was an Army unit.



Not true, we have a PO2 CC and she wears NCD's and we are a field unit....


----------



## Loachman (7 Feb 2015)

Which does not mean that his unit has the same dress policy as your unit.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Feb 2015)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> We aren't allowed to. The hi vis is not tri service. It was only designed to replace the subdued green ranks.
> 
> The navy are olive drab with black thread and the Air Force is olive drab with blue thread.
> 
> The whole point of the different colour thread was to respect the CANFORGEN regarding environmental distinction.



Well, I guess you're SOL then. Keep wearing your combat negligee. 

Have PO's become so timid that they don't know how to adapt and overcome. Do what you have to do, and when questioned, lay blame where it belongs.

Or consult the Unit Chief. I'll bet they will give you an acceptable answer pretty quick.

Beats the hell out of coming here and playing 20 questions and getting as many answers that won't help.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Feb 2015)

How to make things hard 101. Brought to you by the CAF, where every decision is made by a committee. :facepalm:


----------



## RedcapCrusader (8 Feb 2015)

Met an AVN Tech the other day with the new ICU.

He went to Fabricland and bought himself some stick-on velcro, attached it to his RCAF rank slip to attach it to the front of his uniform until the atrocious S&P system catches up and produces element patches for the rest of the CAF.

Adapt and Overcome.


----------



## clericalchronicals (8 Feb 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, I guess you're SOL then. Keep wearing your combat negligee.
> 
> Have PO's become so timid that they don't know how to adapt and overcome. Do what you have to do, and when questioned, lay blame where it belongs.
> 
> ...



Yes, absolutely we all have. I tend to cower in the corner and wait for an adult to come help me.

In all reality though, I went to exchange my combats as they are in deplorable condition. Then was told no, you can't replace new combats until your current ones have a "critical thread failure". 

But at the end of the day, thank you for reminding me how timid I've become.


----------



## hotei (21 Mar 2015)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Capt. Valerie Lanouette has likely not asked anybody who is wearing this. I interrogated the first person that I saw wearing it this past October - an Infantry Corporal. The first part of his review was a lengthy complaint abou the velcro and its various shortcomings including noise.



No, I am sure Capt Lanouette has done extensive interviews... with people who have never been in the field. Sometimes I think we forget all of these "good ideas" are supposed to support the guys in the front line, not the fashion show that is NDHQ. Also, the new flag... Can it get any bigger?


----------



## a_majoor (21 Mar 2015)

The Americans at EX WARFIGHTER were impressed by the new combat uniforms, particularly the flag with is at least 33% larger than the one on their combat uniforms </snark>

(It _was_ the subject of some comments, and most of them I heard were of the WTF? variety). I will be carefully preserving my uniforms as long as possible in the mean time.


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Mar 2015)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> Yes, the navy and air force have environmental patches, olive drab with black thread. The Hi-Vis is army only.



So the only element that gets within knife-fighting distance of the enemy is the one issued with Glo-in-the-Dark gear?  To wear on their camouflage?

Boggled am I.


----------



## Tibbson (21 Mar 2015)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> So the only element that gets within knife-fighting distance of the enemy is the one issued with Glo-in-the-Dark gear?  To wear on their camouflage?
> 
> Boggled am I.



Sure, why not?  I mean, in the early 90s we had solid green uniforms for the field and camouflage jackets for the office didn't we?


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Mar 2015)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Boggled am I.



Can you say that like Master Yoda?


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Mar 2015)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Sure, why not?  I mean, in the early 90s we had solid green uniforms for the field and camouflage jackets for the office didn't we?



Und Sie hatten sehr schöne Stiefel, ja?  :nod:


----------



## 421_434_226 (22 Mar 2015)

I think that we should go back to this dress while in garrison, but only if I get to start wearing my smock again.   And being a short ass is a pain in the ass when it comes to sizes of clothing.


----------



## Sigs Pig (22 Mar 2015)

HA! Nice picture, a keeper for sure!

Easy to pick out the Cadets in the photo, but who are the ones that got to wear camo coats...? and was blousing an option in those Flintstones days? >

ME


----------



## AmmoTech90 (22 Mar 2015)

Not sure what you mean about cadets, seeing at it's a QL5 cadet time would have no relevence...but the jump smocks were worn by the SSF, so if you were posted to Pet in the 80s there was a good chance you were wearing one.  The WO and Sgt in the centre front are wearing drill boots, therefore their trousers are not bloused.  Everyone else is wearing a high top boot and therefore have their trousers bloused.  Combat boots were usually highly shone at CFSEME in those days.


----------



## Happy Guy (22 Mar 2015)

My God this takes me back to the early to late 80s where we wore the work dress uniform (lagoon green long sleeve shirts, rifle green work dress pants and drill boots or combat boots, depending where you were working).  Despite orders from the Bde Comd everyone wore this work dress uniform except the infantry who always manged to wear combats all the time even in garrison.

The SSF (now 2 CMBG) used to wear the jump smocks although there was two camps of thought on base regarding who should wear them - those who jumped (should wear smocks) and those who didn't (should not wear smocks).  I remember many a "discussion" in the mess about this.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Mar 2015)

I've been blinded......


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Mar 2015)

Ascots!  Don't forget ascots with work dress. The perfect accessory to go along with the big late-70s/early-80s porn moustache! ;D


----------



## Tibbson (22 Mar 2015)

Sadly I still have two of them buried away.  One from my old reserve unit and one from my first year in the regs.  A sad statement of the times.


----------



## Happy Guy (22 Mar 2015)

I had to buy the Engineer and Logistics ascots.  Thankfully the COs and RSMs of the units that I was posted to all hated ascots and I never really got to wear them. They eventually ended up in my children's dress up box as did my forage cap.  My children never played with the ascots but they loved the forage cap.


----------



## 421_434_226 (23 Mar 2015)

Ah the good old days, actually I am the one on the left, wasn't in Pet at that time I was with 1RCR in London, if I remember correctly we were part of the SSF via AMF (Allied Command Europe Mobile Force) although the only time I went to Europe was on exercise in Denmark. The garrison dress came about sometime later I remember the horrid "paint by numbers" jacket all too well, and the tan summer army uniform with the sewn on ranks and the green trim around them.


----------



## a_majoor (25 Mar 2015)

Now we need a pattern of red bricks on a uniform for "urban camoflage"...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 Mar 2015)

Don't forget the pseudo jump boots. The ones that made you feel like your lower leg was fused to your foot without an ankle in between.


----------



## Dissident (25 Mar 2015)

Not gonna lie, now that I have seen the ICU in the flesh, I am not a fan.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Mar 2015)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Ascots!  Don't forget ascots with work dress. The perfect accessory to go along with the big late-70s/early-80s porn moustache! ;D



I still have the two Patricia ones plus the old Training Command one. I'm waiting to become a gentleman before I don them again. It may be a while.


----------



## Lightguns (25 Mar 2015)

Still got my VP one as well, along with a VP tie and blazer crest.


----------



## dapaterson (25 Mar 2015)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I still have the two Patricia ones plus the old Training Command one. I'm waiting to become a gentleman before I don them again. It may be a while.



You still have PPCLI Porn moustaches?


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Mar 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You still have PPCLI Porn moustaches?



Bow-chicka-wow-wowwww!  ;D


----------



## Bzzliteyr (25 Mar 2015)

I have finally been issued one set of the ICU.

I will be picking up my second set today.

The arm velcro protectors are an interesting addition and very stiff. I don't understand their purpose as we will only be issued "one flag and rank tab per soldier, not per uniform" so I have no clue what to put on the empty velcro spot on my right sleeve. Morale patches are popular with RSMs, right?

The pockets don't have any pen holders in them so you are pretty much forced to use the ones built into the arm unless you enjoy feeling a pen horizontally across your chest.  I haven't tried to roll up my sleeves yet and I don't even know if it is possible.

The pants come with the knee pads in them and they were promptly removed by me as I unwrapped them. I thought blousing them would be a pain in the butt but it wasn't that complicated at all. I used the little green elastics I have for blousing as opposed to the elastic system in them.

We'll see how long they survive in the tough environment of a HQ. I hope the butt is reinforced well.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Mar 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You still have PPCLI Porn moustaches?



Kinda. Sort of.


----------



## Loachman (25 Mar 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I haven't tried to roll up my sleeves yet and I don't even know if it is possible.



Try taking the pens out of the sleeve pocket first.

Then you can put them...

Oh...

Right.


----------



## McG (25 Mar 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I have no clue what to put on the empty velcro spot on my right sleeve


I expect the velco Div patches will be along soon enough to fill the spot on the other sleeve.


----------



## Lightguns (25 Mar 2015)

and Brigade, and Battalion, and Company, and Platoon, and Section, and fireteam!!!!


----------



## Loachman (25 Mar 2015)

MCG said:
			
		

> I expect the velco Div patches will be along soon enough to fill the spot on the other sleeve.



The field ones will all be olive green for each div, nein?


----------



## Lightguns (25 Mar 2015)

Loachman said:
			
		

> The field ones will all be olive green for each div, nein?



But in differing shades of Olive Green!  Jeez!


----------



## PuckChaser (25 Mar 2015)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> But in differing shades of Olive Green!  Jeez!


50 shades perhaps?


----------



## a_majoor (25 Mar 2015)

You are obviously not ambitious enough. The same people who thought that WWII rank insigia for officers was a good idea are probably going to mine the Great War for inspiration next.

_These_ are the patches you will probably be sticking on your "Improved Combat Uniforms"

Better graphics here: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/insignia/formations/cefform.htm


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Mar 2015)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> You are obviously not ambitious enough. The same people who thought that WWII rank insigia for officers was a good idea are probably going to mine the Great War for inspiration next.
> 
> _These_ are the patches you will probably be sticking on your "Improved Combat Uniforms"
> 
> Better graphics here: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/insignia/formations/cefform.htm



You've done it now.  :facepalm:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Mar 2015)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> So the only element that gets within knife-fighting distance of the enemy is the one issued with Glo-in-the-Dark gear?  To wear on their camouflage?
> 
> Boggled am I.



Just take the patches off when knife fighting?   ;D

Hey at least you guys don't have to buy your own...


----------



## dimsum (25 Mar 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Just take the patches off when knife fighting?   ;D
> 
> Hey at least you guys don't have to buy your own...




Speaking of which...

<tangent>

Since you can strip 'em off (being velcro-backed and all), are flying suit patches still limited to three or less colours or, like the rest of the world, gone back to full-colour patches which every Sqn kit shop has anyway?

</tangent>


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Mar 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Speaking of which...
> 
> <tangent>
> 
> ...



Either all-green or "subdued*" colour.


*subdued - not to include phosophescent or day-glo colours.


----------



## dimsum (26 Mar 2015)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Either all-green or "subdued*" colour.
> 
> 
> *subdued - not to include phosophescent or day-glo colours.



Sigh.


----------



## FSTO (26 Mar 2015)

Gizmo 421 said:
			
		

> I think that we should go back to this dress while in garrison, but only if I get to start wearing my smock again.   And being a short *** is a pain in the *** when it comes to sizes of clothing.



Those Dirty Sanchez's are EPIC!!!!!!!!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2015)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Those Dirty Sanchez's are EPIC!!!!!!!!





> A Dirty Sanchez is a sexual situation where a man is laying some pipe doggy-style, and while in the midst of sex he inserts his finger in the womans angry spider and then smears his finger across her upper lip, giving her a thin shit moustache. This is the Dirty Sanchez.



I think you may have your terms misunderstood. If not, please explain how this equates to jump smocks.


----------



## FSTO (27 Mar 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I think you may have your terms misunderstood. If not, please explain how this equates to jump smocks.


Trust a mud monkey (with all due respect ;D) to know the true meaning of that term. As a Naval Officer and a Gentleman I assumed the Stalin /Porn Star style mustaches were called the "Dirty Sanchez"!


----------



## Lightguns (27 Mar 2015)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> You are obviously not ambitious enough. The same people who thought that WWII rank insigia for officers was a good idea are probably going to mine the Great War for inspiration next.
> 
> _These_ are the patches you will probably be sticking on your "Improved Combat Uniforms"
> 
> Better graphics here: http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/insignia/formations/cefform.htm



Now here is a man working hard to make sure his DG gets a proper management bonus, well done!


----------



## Bzzliteyr (7 Apr 2015)

This just in: After much prodding by my chain of command I attempted to roll up the sleeves on my ICU.

I had to remove the pen from the sleeve and stick it LOOSE in the chest pocket (CF98 just waiting to happen) but I don't think they look too bad. 

Now, I need some really cool patches to match all the high speed stuff I do.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Apr 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Now, I need some really cool patches to match all the high speed stuff I do.



Like what? JTFCSORNINJASNIPER?


----------



## Bzzliteyr (7 Apr 2015)

Um, "desk jockey"?


----------



## a_majoor (8 Apr 2015)

Oh, so you want this one.... >


----------



## blackberet17 (8 Apr 2015)

:rofl:


----------



## Moore (9 Apr 2015)

After wearing the new uniform for a couple of months now, I can definitely say the big patches get in the way sometimes. Whether it be getting caught on my tactical vest and coat sleeves or bending your arms certain ways it gets in the way. Other than that I like the new uniform so far, except I battle to even get pens all the way down in the pen pocket.


----------



## blackberet17 (10 Apr 2015)

Moore said:
			
		

> After wearing the new uniform for a couple of months now, I can definitely say the big patches get in the way sometimes. Whether it be getting caught on my tactical vest and coat sleeves or bending your arms certain ways it gets in the way. Other than that I like the new uniform so far, except I battle to even get pens all the way down in the pen pocket.



In other news, sales of these skyrocket...


----------



## TCM621 (10 Apr 2015)

Moore said:
			
		

> After wearing the new uniform for a couple of months now, I can definitely say the big patches get in the way sometimes. Whether it be getting caught on my tactical vest and coat sleeves or bending your arms certain ways it gets in the way. Other than that I like the new uniform so far, except I battle to even get pens all the way down in the pen pocket.


I'm going to go right out and say it. When did the CF invest in the Velcro industry? You know what I never had to worry about with old ODs ? Name tags being crooked, flags getting pulled off, or curling from being pulled off and on, etc.  Or the Velcro on the pockets no longer working. 

I don't want to go back to OD but I really hate all the Velcro.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (10 Apr 2015)

Velcro is a brand name, you're talking about "hook and loop" fasteners.


----------



## Kirkhill (10 Apr 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Velcro is a brand name, you're talking about "hook and loop" fasteners.



Pederast!

Oops, sorry! I meant pedant.


----------



## Kirkhill (10 Apr 2015)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I'm going to go right out and say it. When did the CF invest in the Velcro industry? You know what I never had to worry about with old ODs ? Name tags being crooked, flags getting pulled off, or curling from being pulled off and on, etc.  Or the Velcro on the pockets no longer working.
> 
> I don't want to go back to OD but I really hate all the Velcro.









TCM621 - Behold the era of the introduction of velcro - all our webbing was held together by velcro.  Which released every time you got the ruddy stuff wet.

Which is why everybody carried a roll of this stuff.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Apr 2015)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I'm going to go right out and say it. When did the CF invest in the Velcro industry? You know what I never had to worry about with old ODs ? Name tags being crooked, flags getting pulled off, or curling from being pulled off and on, etc.  Or the Velcro on the pockets no longer working.
> 
> I don't want to go back to OD but I really hate all the Velcro.



Our unit was tasked with trials on the old OD Goretex Kit. One of their concerns was the Velcro making too much noise. 
It does make the issue and wear of CADPAT easier. No trips to the tailor/seamstress to get name tags and Flags sewn on.

And FYI for you troops who never served in Cyprus, we starched our UN hats and spit shone our jungle boots.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (10 Apr 2015)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> TCM621 - Behold the era of the introduction of velcro - all our webbing was held together by velcro.  Which released every time you got the ruddy stuff wet.
> 
> Which is why everybody carried a roll of this stuff.



IMHO it had more to do with those little plastic tabs breaking off/missing vice the velcro having issues.......


----------



## vonGarvin (10 Apr 2015)

When I joined, this was the webbing in use.  And it was all hook and fasteners (or whatever):






Thank God for Guntape....


----------



## dapaterson (10 Apr 2015)

And when recceguy joined, they were just introducing this new kit:






 >


----------



## Nfld Sapper (10 Apr 2015)

And his 404's have Chariot 2 horse and 4..... ;D











 :whiteflag:


----------



## George Wallace (10 Apr 2015)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> When I joined, this was the webbing in use.  And it was all hook and fasteners (or whatever):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Weren't you the lucky one.  When I joined we still had this:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (10 Apr 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And when recceguy joined, they were just introducing this new kit:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And a fine uniform it was too. The slave girls from Gaul and Brittania couldn't keep their hands off us, by Jupiter!


----------



## Loachman (11 Apr 2015)

Luxury!

We had to get up four hours before going to bed and make our own webbing out of cereal boxes!


----------



## medicineman (11 Apr 2015)

You were allowed cereal?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Apr 2015)

Cereal? Why we were lucky if the turbid water we had contained some pond scum to chew on!


----------



## dapaterson (11 Apr 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Cereal? Why we were lucky if the turbid water we had contained some pond scum to chew on!



You had water?  Luxury!


----------



## Nfld Sapper (11 Apr 2015)

Monty Python - Four Yorkshiremen ;D


----------



## DovoNewb (14 Apr 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I have finally been issued one set of the ICU.
> 
> I will be picking up my second set today.
> 
> ...



2 out of my 3 shirts are the ICU, with one older generation type shirt. Reason being is that I was in Trenton on a tasking in October and 2 of my shirts were wrote off as well as some of my personal clothing in a load of laundry. Someone before me used too much bleach and it didn't drain out. I need shirts to wear to go to work so I went to their clothing stores where I was issued with 2 of the ICU shirts. 

Last week was the 2nd time around of being talked to and told to change, I went to clothing stores in Pet to try to get at least one of them swapped out for the old gen combats to appease my SSM. I was told no, and was sent back to the unit with what they called a "mommy note" explaining that the only size of shirt in stock where I am is the new generation. So I have 2 ICU shirts, and one old gen shirt, although not faded is sized when I was 25lbs heavier after knee surgery and is now starting to fall apart.

I was told I cant wear the ICU shirt until we all get it and I was contradicting a "regimental directive", but there are lads in other parts of the unit where that is all that they have now, and the new ICU stuff came down in various ogroups within the unit and that clothing stores would be issuing it out now. 

*scratching my head with my note in my pocket* 

Maybe today I'll get talked to about having a shirt on that is falling apart, where I will explain that I am not allowed to wear my new shirt that a certain SSM doesn't like. I'm not wearing an ICU shirt today to save myself the grief of being accused of playing the mommy daddy game. 

Lol........   Has my OT been accepted yet?


----------



## McG (14 Apr 2015)

What is your unit?


----------



## Harris (14 Apr 2015)

If you think you have it rough now, wait until your Units troops are in three different color t-shirts.  The SSM will likely have to put in for stress leave.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Apr 2015)

DovoNewb said:
			
		

> 2 out of my 3 shirts are the ICU, with one older generation type shirt. Reason being is that I was in Trenton on a tasking in October and 2 of my shirts were wrote off as well as some of my personal clothing in a load of laundry. Someone before me used too much bleach and it didn't drain out. I need shirts to wear to go to work so I went to their clothing stores where I was issued with 2 of the ICU shirts.
> 
> Last week was the 2nd time around of being talked to and told to change, I went to clothing stores in Pet to try to get at least one of them swapped out for the old gen combats to appease my SSM. I was told no, and was sent back to the unit with what they called a "mommy note" explaining that the only size of shirt in stock where I am is the new generation. So I have 2 ICU shirts, and one old gen shirt, although not faded is sized when I was 25lbs heavier after knee surgery and is now starting to fall apart.
> 
> ...



I would tell your SSM to contact the RQ and sort this out between them and the CLOT supervisor.  Supply can only issue you what they have and you cant be punished for what you were issued.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Apr 2015)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I would tell your SSM to contact the RQ and sort this out between them and the CLOT supervisor.  Supply can only issue you what they have and you cant be punished for what you were issued.



Unintentional witticism I'm sure.  In Britain a "clot" is a numbskull, thickhead, dolt or otherwise an idiot.

I thought you were recommending the SSM and the RQ for counselling by the local supervisor of idiots.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Apr 2015)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Unintentional witticism I'm sure.  In Britain a "clot" is a numbskull, thickhead, dolt or otherwise an idiot.
> 
> I thought you were recommending the SSM and the RQ for counselling by the local supervisor of idiots.



lol point taken.  CLOT is the short form of Clothing Stores in the CFSS.


----------



## Kat Stevens (14 Apr 2015)

Odd, I never really got in the habit of telling any of my SSMs to do anything.  8)


----------



## dapaterson (14 Apr 2015)

I'm having a flashback to the "old" new OD combat shirts that many an SSM ordered for use in the field only, and not ever on parade.

Coming up next: spit shining combat boots, no doubt.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Apr 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Coming up next: spit shining combat boots, no doubt.



Hussssh!  No need to invoke the Good Idea Faerie.


----------



## acen (14 Apr 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Hussssh!  No need to invoke the Good Idea Faerie.



Unfortunately that has already begun...as is the idea that one should iron their combats.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Apr 2015)

acen said:
			
		

> Unfortunately that has already begun...as is the idea that one should iron their combats.





........and we have threads on those two topics.    >


----------



## acen (14 Apr 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ........and we have threads on those two topics.    >



How about ironing the Improved Combat Uniform...that should bring it back on track, no? 

/end tangent


----------



## DovoNewb (14 Apr 2015)

Harris said:
			
		

> If you think you have it rough now, wait until your Units troops are in three different color t-shirts.  The SSM will likely have to put in for stress leave.



Oh I know I don't have it rough, I'm just confused; It's issued kit that is the topic of my post. I've gotten spoken to about properly wearing issued kit, and I have a note now from clothing stores which is actually quite funny. Heaven forbid someone higher in the CoC takes the word of one of their minions for what it is versus assuming they are trying to pull a fast one over said superior. 

There's also guys that are going out of pocket to buy flag patches and rank patches that are within spec. I guess there is a shortage here for those as well. 

At least it's 15 celcius outside and sunny.


----------



## DovoNewb (14 Apr 2015)

MCG said:
			
		

> What is your unit?



Ummm.... I won't be disclosing that.lol Despite my not portraying a particular organization of the CF in a negative light or that I am not acting unprofessional, there are elements of I assume everyones chain of command on here trolling around and looking, and I'm pretty sure even my comments on here would get me into trouble. It's happened before.....

I only wanted to post my thoughts to see if others, elsewhere within the CF are getting into the same sort of situation that I am.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (14 Apr 2015)

DovoNewb said:
			
		

> Oh I know I don't have it rough, I'm just confused; It's issued kit that is the topic of my post. I've gotten spoken to about properly wearing issued kit, and I have a note now which is actually quite funny. Heaven forbid someone higher in the CoC takes the word of one of their minions for what it is versus assuming they are trying to pull a fast one over said superior.
> 
> At least it's 15 celcius outside and sunny.




And with the ICU you can't roll up your sleeves...


----------



## JSR OP (14 Apr 2015)

DovoNewb said:
			
		

> Ummm.... I won't be disclosing that.lol



DovoNewb, you may want to have a look at your profile.  Unless of course the unit you say you're in isn't the unit your actually in....


----------



## DovoNewb (14 Apr 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And with the ICU you can't roll up your sleeves...



We never have done that, even pre ICU shirt anyways. I think we were allowed to do that in Gagetown though.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (14 Apr 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And with the ICU you can't roll up your sleeves...



What! No more "S4b" suntans for the Army! Where are the mass protests?



			
				Harris said:
			
		

> If you think you have it rough now, wait until your Units troops are in three different color t-shirts.  The SSM will likely have to put in for stress leave.



Or will be as ecstatic as a kid in a candy store !


----------



## Good2Golf (14 Apr 2015)

OGBD, I suspect only a few of us know of what S4B you speak.   yes, the tan...can't have guys getting a forearm tan or having a competition I see how close to their armpit they can roll their sleeves up to..


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## DovoNewb (14 Apr 2015)

DovoNewb said:
			
		

> We never have done that, even pre ICU shirt anyways. I think we were allowed to do that in Gagetown though.



Well there you go then. I thought that was just for verification purposes to register for the forum. 

Let the record show that I have not been carrying on like a jacka$$ or portraying myself or my unit in a negative manner. I was merely curious if others have been faced with challenges in regards to the ICU shirts.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Apr 2015)

We need to issue more of this.


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## Kat Stevens (14 Apr 2015)

This is like when the fabulous idea of a combat shirt with top pockets only were flying around.  Every Sgt, WO, and SSM had a different directive on when where and how you could wear it. Three issued shirts and two of them had no mag pockets, so I lived in one shirt in garrison till some diesel got accidentally(coff coff) spilled on them on ex.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Apr 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> This is like when the fabulous idea of a combat shirt with top pockets only were flying around.  Every Sgt, WO, and SSM had a different directive on when where and how you could wear it. Three issued shirts and two of them had no mag pockets, so I lived in one shirt in garrison till some diesel got accidentally(coff coff) spilled on them on ex.



My take on this is that someone is too worried about "Uniformity". We look similar and we are not truly uniform.

Common sense has to prevail at some point.....


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## dimsum (14 Apr 2015)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> My take on this is that someone is too worried about "Uniformity". We look similar and we are not truly uniform.
> 
> Common sense has to prevail at some point.....



And it's an operational/combat uniform - fashion is supposed to be secondary to function, right?  

It's not like Sqn CWOs dictate whether aircrew wear 1 or 2-piece flying suits because "we must all look alike"...I'll take some GIF Repellent, please.


----------



## vonGarvin (15 Apr 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> And it's an operational/combat uniform - fashion is supposed to be secondary to function, right?


Our former foes seemed to have both form and function down:


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Apr 2015)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Our former foes seemed to have both form and function down:



Yup, I can't imagine a better place to carry my poncho or using my canteen as armour for my nads. ;D


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## a_majoor (15 Apr 2015)

Too bad no one took pictures of when _his_ sergeant major got a hold of him.....


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Apr 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> And it's an operational/combat uniform - fashion is supposed to be secondary to function, right?
> 
> It's not like Sqn CWOs dictate whether aircrew wear 1 or 2-piece flying suits because "we must all look alike"...I'll take some GIF Repellent, please.



One of the good things about our job, we are allowed to dress ourselves.  No adult day-care rules  8).

I can wear a 1 or 2 piece, a beret or wedge, and my rain jacket/combat jacket/parka/fleece jacket/flying jacket as needed and no one has a stroke.  

The fashion police only go bonkers over badges and ballhats.


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## Privateer (15 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> One of the good things about our job, we are allowed to dress ourselves.  No adult day-care rules  8).
> 
> I can wear a 1 or 2 piece, a beret or wedge, and my rain jacket/combat jacket/parka/fleece jacket/flying jacket as needed and no one has a stroke.
> 
> The fashion police only go bonkers over badges and ballhats.



/leather jacket?


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> One of the good things about our job, we are allowed to dress ourselves.  No adult day-care rules  8).
> 
> I can wear a 1 or 2 piece, a beret or wedge, and my rain jacket/combat jacket/parka/fleece jacket/flying jacket as needed and no one has a stroke.
> 
> The fashion police only go bonkers over badges and ballhats.



The very rare EITS posing for a picture......


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## dimsum (15 Apr 2015)

Privateer said:
			
		

> /leather jacket?



Not for flying.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> One of the good things about our job, we are allowed to dress ourselves.  No adult day-care rules  8).
> 
> I can wear a 1 or 2 piece, a beret or wedge, and my rain jacket/combat jacket/parka/fleece jacket/flying jacket as needed and no one has a stroke.
> 
> The fashion police only go bonkers over badges and ballhats.



Ball caps were the de rigueur for ground crew when I was in Comox. :dunno:


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## dimsum (15 Apr 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Ball caps were the de rigueur for ground crew when I was in Comox. :dunno:



I'd be surprised if they aren't still.  

One of the good (for comfort/unit ID) dress rules for the RAAF is that they are allowed to wear unit ball caps with operational clothing at all times - each unit has a patch worn on their sleeve of their combats/flying suits and the cap is coloured to match.  Any colour will do, as long as it's approved.  

Incidentally, the RAAF loves seeing the Army get worked up over that.   >


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## OldSolduer (15 Apr 2015)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Too bad no one took pictures of when _his_ sergeant major got a hold of him.....



What you talking bout Willis? That IS the Sergeant Major!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Apr 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Ball caps were the de rigueur for ground crew when I was in Comox. :dunno:



Once you are in the breezeway it's good to go, and in Sqn spaces and the flight line.  Anywhere else is bad.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Apr 2015)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> The very rare EITS posing for a picture......



Bahahhaahaaa


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Apr 2015)

Privateer said:
			
		

> /leather jacket?



Negative negative!  I did not partake in the purchase of a non-flying leather jacket.  All of the ones I mentioned are already not approved for flying, and that is more than enough.  I would much rather spend $500 at MEC.


----------



## DovoNewb (16 Apr 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Odd, I never really got in the habit of telling any of my SSMs to do anything.  8)



I have no plans on telling my SSM what to do in this situation. I'll keep wearing my so called approved garrison shirt that is grossly too big for me and is now starting to fall apart until told otherwise.


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## Bzzliteyr (16 Apr 2015)

DovoNewb said:
			
		

> I have no plans on telling my SSM what to do in this situation. I'll keep wearing my so called approved garrison shirt that is grossly too big for me and is now starting to fall apart until told otherwise.



Get on a course on a different base, see clothing stores there. Problem solved.


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## DovoNewb (16 Apr 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Get on a course on a different base, see clothing stores there. Problem solved.



That's how this problem started. I was somewhere else on a tasking. I used a wash machine where someone before me used too much bleach and it didn't drain for whatever reason. I wrote off 2 shirts, ontop of some civillian clothing and ended up getting stuck with 2 of the ICU shirts.


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## Loachman (16 Apr 2015)

Covertly/"accidently"/pay somebody to spray bleach on his shirt and see what happens when he goes to exchange it.


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## Bzzliteyr (16 Apr 2015)

Update: My office has taken to my ICU with open arms. Four of us stood in the hallway the other day and ridiculed the "old shirters". 

I have since noticed that the leg pockets near the ankle have PEN HOLDERS!!  As well, they are a great place to store your sunglasses. I blouse my pants with the old green twistie elastics and have no issues with that. The front zipper and button are offset and it took some time to get used to zipping first, then buttoning after pulling up my pants.

As well, the pen pockets on the arms were very oddly designed and I am still trying to figure out who conceptualized the "2/3 velcro opening that isn't as large as the velcro and doesn't make it easy to get a pen in to the outermost hole" design but I'm not surprised. Maybe it's fullfilling teh "Canadian content" portion of the uniform?

I am not sure I mentioned it before (and am frankly too lazy to go look) but the clothing stores in Kingston where I got the ICU informed me that it is a 1 per PERSON entitlement to the large Canadian flag AND the velcro rank thingamajig. 

I have removed both and the nametag and side panels everytime I have washed the ICU top and they have stayed nice and straight, no wavy names tags for this cat!!

I hope you have enjoyed this update and should you have any questions, please feel free to ask them.


----------



## George Wallace (16 Apr 2015)

I would also smell the washer before putting my next load in.


----------



## George Wallace (16 Apr 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> As well, the pen pockets on the arms were very oddly designed and I am still trying to figure out who conceptualized the "2/3 velcro opening that isn't as large as the velcro and doesn't make it easy to get a pen in to the outermost hole" design but I'm not surprised. Maybe it's fullfilling teh "Canadian content" portion of the uniform?



We never had "pen pockets" on our old cbts; although that is what we used them for.  They were for the NBC injectors, were they not?  




			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I have removed both and the nametag and side panels everytime I have washed the ICU top and they have stayed nice and straight, no wavy names tags for this cat!!



You never did that with previous iterations of the uniform velcro tags?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Apr 2015)

I think the pocket was for the personal dosimeter.  The pen shaped one, name eludes me. The disc on dog tags was the DT60 IIRC.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (16 Apr 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We never had "pen pockets" on our old cbts; although that is what we used them for.  They were for the NBC injectors, were they not?
> 
> 
> You never did that with previous iterations of the uniform velcro tags?



You know darn well everyone has inadvertantly done the old "nametag in the wash" thing..


----------



## Loachman (16 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think the pocket was for the personal dosimeter.



Yes.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think the pocket was for the personal dosimeter.  The pen shaped one, name eludes me. The disc on dog tags was the DT60 IIRC.



IM-9/PD Pocket Dosimeter


----------



## DovoNewb (17 Apr 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I would also smell the washer before putting my next load in.



I guess I shouldn't have assumed that whoever before me who used the wash understood the directions of the detergent products they were using. How silly of me. Lol 

(I guess I've posted enough now that the stupid letters aren't here anymore. This is pretty cool!)


----------



## MPSHIELD (28 Jun 2015)

Read all 41 pages of this post and would like to add my observations:

Just exchanged some older combats shirts and got 2x sets of the ICU. I actually went down a size due to the fit of the chest area, the elastic on the sides and the "action back" in the shoulder area. The converged combats that I turned in and the remaining one set I have are bigger in the chest to allow for my shoulders. 

For those that think they will get the ICU soon, the supply tech said some sizes show hundreds left in stock. It is a hit and miss depending on your size. Clothing a stores can't order the new sizes until the current stock is exhausted.

The ICU like most new uniforms are stiff and ruff to the skin. Washing over time will fix this. As I have 2x new style pants issued in the last few months that are new (never worn) and 2 new style shirts, for the first time in 4-5 years I'm fortunate to have a uniform top and bottom, that match.

Now hopefully they fade at the same rate.....

For those that think I will be sporting the ICU now I will not be. I work at a place that doesn't have immediate access to clothing and my ICU was shipped to me and it appears the supply tech forgot to issue me the flags and rank so I can't even wear them. I called the sup tech and he said he is gonna mail it out to me. So maybe in a week or two.

My 2 cents


----------



## dimsum (1 Jul 2015)

After trying to do in-routine at my new base and talking to someone for about 10 mins before realizing he didn't actually work there, it dawned on me why the Aussies have unit (or section) patches on their working uniforms.  That would have cleared it up right quick.


----------



## Gunshark (10 May 2016)

As I'm fairly new in the army, I've had to make a few trips to my clothing stores in recent months to dial in my correct size for combat tunic and pants. In the end, I've found the right sizes, and was issued 3 brand new pairs of 'new style' pants and 3 quite worn 'old style' tunics. I have a pretty bad mismatch going on, not only because of new and old styles, but also because tops are worn and discoloured while the bottoms are in mint condition. It looks unprofessional. And in the future, I'll probably have to replace tunics sooner than pants, and end up with an opposite problem - new tunics and worn out pants.

Now... I am not one to make a fashion show out of my service in the military, but I do take dress seriously. I think looking neat and professional has significance, especially in the army, especially in public. Anyway, I've tried asking clothing stores to issue me new combat tunics but they've declined, saying mine are still serviceable. Is this a common issue? Are there any other ways to get new combats? Should I start making connections? Is it difficult across Canada to get the right kit? Thanks.


----------



## LightFighter (10 May 2016)

Yes, you aren't unique, the problem you have is what many troops are facing across the country. 

To exchange combats they usually have to be faded to a certain extent(some clothing stores may have an example) or damaged. If your combats are truely in poor repair and faded a great extent and clothing will not exchange it, speak with your CoC.


----------



## George Wallace (10 May 2016)

LightFighter said:
			
		

> Yes, you aren't unique, the problem you have is what many troops are facing across the country.
> 
> To exchange combats they usually have to be faded to a certain extent(some clothing stores may have an example) or damaged. If your combats are truely in poor repair and faded a great extent and clothing will not exchange it, speak with your CoC.



Now there is also a little differentiation that has to be made here.  Faded is one thing and not necessarily cause for exchange.  'SEE THROUGH' is a totally different thing, and cause to have item exchanged.    [


----------



## RedcapCrusader (10 May 2016)

Gunshark said:
			
		

> As I'm fairly new in the army, I've had to make a few trips to my clothing stores in recent months to dial in my correct size for combat tunic and pants. In the end, I've found the right sizes, and was issued 3 brand new pairs of 'new style' pants and 3 quite worn 'old style' tunics. I have a pretty bad mismatch going on, not only because of new and old styles, but also because tops are worn and discoloured while the bottoms are in mint condition. It looks unprofessional. And in the future, I'll probably have to replace tunics sooner than pants, and end up with an opposite problem - new tunics and worn out pants.
> 
> Now... I am not one to make a fashion show out of my service in the military, but I do take dress seriously. I think looking neat and professional has significance, especially in the army, especially in public. Anyway, I've tried asking clothing stores to issue me new combat tunics but they've declined, saying mine are still serviceable. Is this a common issue? Are there any other ways to get new combats? Should I start making connections? Is it difficult across Canada to get the right kit? Thanks.


Combat Clothing comes in 4 inch increments.

So if you're a 32, you're either going to get 30 or 34. There's no "dialling in" sizes unless it is egregiously big (or small).


----------



## Gunshark (11 May 2016)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> Combat Clothing comes in 4 inch increments.
> 
> So if you're a 32, you're either going to get 30 or 34. There's no "dialling in" sizes unless it is egregiously big (or small).



Agreed. What I meant was, because sizing has two parts - length and width - it took some time wearing the items to actually determine the correct size combinations for each. All comes with experience.


----------

