# CFHA Residential Housing Unit (RHU)-old PMQ [MERGED]



## Redneck052 (2 Jun 2003)

Military Housing (CFHA).

How much is too much!  With posting season upon us, thought that I would help people coming to CFB Kingston.  Trust me, you don‘t want to get a PMQ here.

I have a three bedroom duplex, the place has no basement, no garage, and very little insulation in the walls.  During the winter I pay between $150-$200 p/mth for gas, between $60-$120 p/mth for hydro.  Here is were CFHA comes in... $700 p/mth, plus $14 for utlities.  Thats $1035. p/mth.  There is not much that you can do about the utlities, but with insulation in the walls, no draft from the windows that cost would be lower.

My rent has gone up every year $100.  With every pay raise we get, CFHA jacks our rent up.

If you are coming here....BUY A HOUSE it is cheaper then a Q.

So, How much is your PMQ where you are?


Bring back the Airborne Regt....disband the crooks at CFHA!!!


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## Zoomie (2 Jun 2003)

Out here in the middle of the prairies they aren‘t gouging us too bad.  I live in a 3 bedroom, 1.5 bath duplex with basement.  I pay $385/month rent, fixed rate gas at $75/month, fixed rate hydro at $36/month and utilities come in around $13/month.  I have also rented a garage space on the other side of base for $50/month.  That turns out to around $550/month for living expenses.  Much cheaper than renting an equivalent home in town.


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## combat_medic (2 Jun 2003)

I know for the remaining PMQs in Jericho, Vancouver, the rents go for about 900-1200$ depending on the size of the house. That‘s not including hydro, water, or any other expenses.

Welcome to the west coast!


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## klumanth (2 Jun 2003)

Correct me if I‘m wrong, but isn‘t there a living differential for most of that area?  I‘m thinking they should put one in for kingston too.


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## McInnes (2 Jun 2003)

how much do barracks cost...say if dont have a family kinda thing. condition/price
i dunno. they got rid of the barracks here when the got rid of the reg forces.


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## Rogers86 (2 Jun 2003)

Are these facilities for officers only?


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## Redneck052 (2 Jun 2003)

The PMQ‘s are for all ranks.  

As for AAA and now PLD, Kingston is one of the few bases that don‘t recieve either.

Guys, great job, thanks for the input.
Lets keep it going.... maybe Ottawa will hear!


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## Zoomie (2 Jun 2003)

My thoughts on Post Living Differential (PLD):

--RANT ON --

What a crock of $hit!

Apart from the regions of Canada that are obviously in need for such an Allotment (Vancouver, Victoria, Toronto) all the others are a load of proverbial crap.  I find that most bases that have a large population of CF pers (ie Trenton, Kingston, etc) do not have the PLD.  Even though Income Tax, gas rates, electricity rates, etc are the same as those found in Toronto or Ottawa.  Both of which have the PLD.  Even Kitchener/Waterloo has a PLD.  I lived in KW for 4 years as a student, I didn‘t find the cost of living there any more expensive than I did when I lived in Trenton.  It is my belief that the TB (Treasury Board) looks at where the PLD could go, realizes how much it would cost, and then nixes the idea.  Just to make it look like they are helping the average CF pers, they give PLD to the one RegF shmoe that is living in the K/W region.

-- RANT OFF --


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## klumanth (2 Jun 2003)

Rates for rooms in the barracks depend on the base, what kind of room, and how much you make.  I pay about $150 a month for a single room.  Not the cheapest as far as barracks rooms go, but much cheaper than what most people pay.


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## Armymedic (4 Jun 2003)

Petawawa:

3 bdrm rowhouse $450
4 Bdrm row $550
3 Bdrm single house $545

No AAA here....civilian 2 bdrm apartments next to the PMQ‘s go around $600.


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## riggah052 (5 Jun 2003)

My personal gripe with the CFHA is the attitude that if you don‘t like it, leave. It goes without saying, however, when a quarter of the MQ‘s in Kingston are vacant (a statistic that is growing) you really have to wonder wether these policies should be moderated.
(i.e. the raising of rent every pay raise, lack of major repairs)


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## onecat (5 Jun 2003)

"Rates for rooms in the barracks depend on the base, what kind of room, and how much you make. I pay about $150 a month for a single room. Not the cheapest as far as barracks rooms go, but much cheaper than what most people pay"

hey... what are the rooms like?  how big are they and what is deal with then?  I mean are you stuck with their bed or can you bring your own, can you have a coffee maker their.  do they have cable.  Can you have a guest stay over night?

Can a single guy actually get more then a room?  I don‘t really want to live off base, but then I‘m use too having an apartment so being stuck in a room until a get married... if that happens...just doesn‘t woprk for me.

thanks.


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## Long in the tooth (7 Jun 2003)

The solution is simple.  Except for areas that absolutely need PMQs such as Goose Bay or Wainwright, can all the PMQs and raise our pay and differential allowances so we can afford decent housing for our families.  Having some pers receive subsidized housing is patently unfair to those of us who live on the economy, whether by necessity or choice.
The military would also save one h*ll of a pot of money.


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## klumanth (7 Jun 2003)

The rooms are in good shape and are about 10x12 plus lots of closet space.  You can put all your own furniture in them but you are responsible to store the furniture that came with the room.  You can have cable or even satellite if you prefer.  The one thing they disallow is hot plates or anything with a heating element.  Most people just microwave everything.  You could probably get away with a coffee maker.  To my knowledge, you cannot get more than one room but you can still have guests overnight if you so desire.  
All in all, I would say the single quarters are good but it is only a matter of time before you tire of living there. 

Keep in mind however, that all this applies after trade training.  If you are doing MOC training in Kingston, you will probably be put in 4 person rooms and the standards are much stricter regarding guests, furniture etc.


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## platinumfx (27 Aug 2004)

Hey dose anybody know what the average cost for a PMQ is? I would be requesting a 3 Bedroom PMQ.  Hopefully it will be in Kingston or in Edmonton. I'm doing a component transfer from reserve infantry to reg Sig Op. So if anybody have any info for me that would be great. Thanks in advance!


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## mike62 (27 Aug 2004)

PMQ's  cfha (Canadian forces housing agency) ...depends on your location.....and realestate values in that area...don't want to get into the logistic part of it..lol.......I'm in Petawawa..we pay  $510.(3 bedroom row house) .Kingston you are looking at $700+  for 3 bedroom. The rent seems to go up once in awhile ...lol  ...especially when there is a pay raise.....


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## patt (27 Aug 2004)

mike62 said:
			
		

> PMQ's   cfha (Canadian forces housing agency) ...depends on your location.....and realestate values in that area...don't want to get into the logistic part of it..lol.......I'm in Petawawa..we pay   $510.(3 bedroom row house) .Kingston you are looking at $700+   for 3 bedroom. The rent seems to go up once in awhile ...lol   ...especially when there is a pay raise.....



Here in Borden my parents will be paying about $900 a month within the next year its a single house with 3 bedrooms and alot of mistakes that the builders made!


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## platinumfx (27 Aug 2004)

Ok thanks for all the info guys, if anybody has anything to add to it, please do. Thanks again!


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## carpediem (27 Aug 2004)

If you go to this link:
http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/occupant/occupant_e.asp#locations
and then pick a location, once at a specific location page select the "Homes" link on the upper right.

You will now have a list of the types of PMQs and their cost for that location.
For example, the Valcartier PMQs are at http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/occupant/valcartier_homes_e.asp


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (24 Oct 2004)

"There really Is 'No Life Like It' if you live on base" 
October 15, 2003
Imagine how you'd feel paying rent for a house or an apartment â â€œ your home â â€œ that was so poorly insulated your family's food froze in the cupboards in the winter.   Imagine the risks to you and your children's health arising from the black mould on the walls and water smelling of sewage or under a long-term boil water advisory.     

Imagine your outrage at living under these conditions as your landlord increased your rent every year by $100 a month â â€œ far higher than the rent hike limits protecting most Canadian tenants.   Then imagine your frustration at being able to do nothing about it because your landlord, who also happens to be your boss, had such power that health, safety and tenant protection laws in your province couldn't help you. 

For thousands of families living in Canadian Forces housing, no imagination is required.   Welcome to their reality.     

It's a sad fact that many Canadian families are living in similarly intolerable conditions.   However, if they rent, they at least have some recourse available to them under provincial laws designed to protect tenants from irresponsible and exploitive landlords.   But what if your landlord is the Government of Canada?   The provinces have no jurisdiction over rental increases and maintenance levels of federal housing units.   

On November 1st, residents living in Canadian Forces housing will be hit with yet another rent increase for their Private Married Quarters.   Many tenants have seen their rents jump by as much as 25 percent. 


The Canadian Forces Housing Authority (CFHA) says it simply wants to charge fair market rents that reflect the local real estate markets.   Yet it isn't equally prepared to match the living standards of local units.   

On-base housing provides military families with a valuable resource to address their specific needs.   The life of a soldier is no 9-to-5 job.   Most are on call 24-hours a day.   Proximity to their base is critical.   They must uproot their families every few years, to wherever they're asked to serve.   They're deployed for months at a time, leaving their spouses and children behind.   Often, the community on a military base is the only source of emotional and practical support for these families.   

True, the men and women of the armed forces chose this life, accepting there would be sacrifices.   But all of Canadians benefit from the personal sacrifices they make to be able to serve our country.   And far from some low-cost luxurious perk, the housing that facilitates their ability to do their job is often a substandard health and safety hazard.   

Soldiers and their spouses are reluctant to complain about their living conditions.   Yet, the military housing situation has gotten so bad that some have begun to speak out.   For those who continue to endure in silence, we must fight on their behalf.     

That's why I announced a petition campaign this week to demand the CFHA suspend any future rent increases at least until the Government of Canada makes substantive improvements to the living conditions of housing provided for military families.

If like me, you believe our soldiers deserve fair treatment and more respect, copies of the petition are available at: www.jayhillmp.com or www.canadianalliance.ca.


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## patt (24 Oct 2004)

yep my parents rent is supposed to go up to like 800+ a month for this POS that we live in..sad really


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (24 Oct 2004)

Do you ever notice that around the time PSAC strikes looking for a pay increase that might help the military, the rent seems to go up?


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## Inch (24 Oct 2004)

At least the increase is offset by 6 months now. Our pay raises are Apr 1st and Rent increases are Nov 1st for PMQs and SQs. Not too long ago, you got the pay raise then at the same time you got a rent increase and in some cases you ended up taking home less money.  

Does anyone know if you're now eligible for PLD since the rent is matched to the public sector? 

Cheers


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## Jarnhamar (24 Oct 2004)

So we get a raise, rent goes up, we pay more taxes.

Lets hear it for pay raises.


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## childs56 (24 Oct 2004)

i am living in single shacks right now and when you walk into our building you can smell the mould in the hall ways. Last winter you could see the mositure on the walls and the concrete chipping away. It is great to live in them when your rent goes up. And your not allowed to leave. When i worked on civie side if a place was in this bad of shape the health inspector would condemn the building untill it was all cleaned up. The fact is these buildings were built in the 50's or so and need to be replaced.


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## axeman (24 Oct 2004)

i HEAR YOU , right now im living in the PMQ and it is very apperent how everytime theres a raise in our pay the rent of these go up . and another thing is that the namao PMQ s are not in edmonton but in Morrinville but we are still forced to pay the edmonton city rates even though we dont live in the city limits . i agree that these places for what we are paying should be maintained in like new shapre even as far as to re insulate them  . but instead since the forces have handed it off to a private comapany they are making money off of what should be a zero loss payment scheme as these houses have been paid for since the mid seventies at least. all we should be paying for  should be utilities and maintinance not market value as we are the one risking life and limb in some forgien country this should be the least of the payback for losing weekends  for months on end and dealing with what we have to deal with the idea behind a garrison was to keep us seperate from the local population . if we desire to live in the local population fine then we should pay that rate but as we wish to live int the garrison commuity why are we being force to be like it ....


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## chriscalow (24 Oct 2004)

This is absolutely appalling, mold? Frozen groceries?!? It kind of makes one want to think twice about going into the Reg F.  I will definitely be taking part in the petition,  and I will also be writing off letters to anyone that I can to find justification for this abuse.  I am going to encourage everyone I know to do the same thing.


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## gun plumber (24 Oct 2004)

Yep.going to have the wall in the kitchen removed and new cupboards thanks to black mold.Paint upstairs is chipping off the walls in my son's room and the wind whips through the family so bad we had to put up garbage bags one night.Fair market value........bah!


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## Scratch_043 (24 Oct 2004)

That is just unreasonable, something needs to be done about that, is it really that bad everywhere? or just in the PMQs?


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## Inch (24 Oct 2004)

It's only on certain bases, Moose Jaw PMQs were all recently renovated, except the row houses but there's only a few of them left.  All the single dwellings and duplexes are like new there, not too bad at all. The SQs there are brand new too, as are the SQs in Portage, Trenton, and Winnipeg. A buddy of mine has a PMQ in Winnipeg and they're not too bad either. It all depends on where you go, some are nicer than others.

Cheers


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## beach_bum (24 Oct 2004)

Here in Vancouver, the PMQs are in a great area!  In fact, it's so great, that we are surrounded by million dollar homes.  You can just imagine what that does to our rent, being based on the local economy and all.  People who live in this area make about 5 times what I do!  The base shelter value for my home is over $1100!!!!!  Thankfully, they can't charge us more than 25% of our pay!  Even still, I pay over $800 for this lovely non-insulated leaky PMQ.   :  The response we get whenever we complain is move and go live on the economy.  Then.....in order to live somewhere I could afford I would have a 2 hour commute to work.


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## Sh0rtbUs (24 Oct 2004)

whats the word on Pets PMQ condition? ?How can one bring a new family into conditions already stated before...very discouraging.


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## patt (24 Oct 2004)

i remeber my old house in pet had to be compeltely gutted because of bad wireing..i would hate to be payin for that place now.


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## Scratch_043 (24 Oct 2004)

since I am currently unattached, I am more concerned about the SQs, but I would also like to know what the situation is like in pet, and in gagetown.


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## pbi (24 Oct 2004)

The stated objective of the Federal Govt, for some years now, is to get completely out of the housing business except for extremely isolated posts(of which we have only a very few remaining).This applies to the CF, the RCMP, Transport Canada, etc. Therefore there is very little incentive for them to do much about really overhauling the PMQs for the long run.

This is not helped by the fact that (IIRC) only about 30% of CF personnel live in PMQs, and this is declining as our pay and benefit packages improve.

Finally, I think you will find a huge difference in how the Services have looked after the PMQs. The Airforce has traditionally done the best job of taking care of its PMQ communities, while the Army has not done nearly as well. The Navy seems to me to have done not much better than the Army, and perhaps worse.

Cheers.


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## Sh0rtbUs (25 Oct 2004)

As the Pay and benefits improve, how much easier is it to find decent housing within a soldiers price range, outside of what the military can provide (that is, for a family and singles)? As well, any first hand recollections would be appreciated regarding specific bases (in my case, Pet)


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## pbi (25 Oct 2004)

It's really no different than it is for any other Canadian (except we get some benefits they dont...) It depend on where you live. When I lived in the GTA (97-2002) owning a house was completely out of the question: way too expensive. But, once I was posted to Winnipeg, I discovered the amazing world of the Winnipeg housing market: one of the best-kept secrets in Canada. For 50% of what you woul pay in GTA you can get a good house in a very nice neighborhood, then when postng time comes, sell it in a very few days(maybe even 24 hours)  and make a profit. I paid less in mortagage and property taxes _combined _ here in Wpg than I paid to rent a PMQ at the Oakville site. In Pet, you are probably in a pretty reasonable price range.  As well, the CF picks up real estate agent, legal and home inspector fees. Cheers.


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## axeman (25 Oct 2004)

That would be great except here in the namao / lancaster base  they are chargeing us as if we lived in edmonton , which we dont  and no amount of talking to them seems to make them realize that .


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## pbi (25 Oct 2004)

> That would be great except here in the namao / lancaster base  they are chargeing us as if we lived in edmonton , which we dont  and no amount of talking to them seems to make them realize that .



Sorry-I'm not quite following you: was that post in response to mine, or another? ??? Cheers.


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## axeman (25 Oct 2004)

it was in response to neither . just a statement .


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## Sh0rtbUs (25 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> It's really no different than it is for any other Canadian (except we get some benefits they dont...) It depend on where you live. When I lived in the GTA (97-2002) owning a house was completely out of the question: way too expensive. But, once I was posted to Winnipeg, I discovered the amazing world of the Winnipeg housing market: one of the best-kept secrets in Canada. For 50% of what you woul pay in GTA you can get a good house in a very nice neighborhood, then when postng time comes, sell it in a very few days(maybe even 24 hours)   and make a profit. I paid less in mortagage and property taxes _combined _ here in Wpg than I paid to rent a PMQ at the Oakville site. In Pet, you are probably in a pretty reasonable price range.   As well, the CF picks up real estate agent, legal and home inspector fees. Cheers.



Thanks, a bit more reassuring  ;D Axeman, whats their logic behind charging your real estate prices for Edmonton, when you arent in Edmonton?


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## pbi (25 Oct 2004)

My guess: Probably they are looking at a comparable neighborhood. If they went west a bit and used St Albert, nobody could ever afford to live in PMQs. Strathcona, being a mainly rural area with smaller communities like Morinville,may not be considered as a comparable neighborhood. The nearest large stock of housing of similar age, condition, etc would be found in the City of Edmonton. Just  my guess.


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## foerestedwarrior (25 Oct 2004)

This is ridiculous. I live in the SQ in Borden, they arnt that bad, but they already hiked up our rates $10 a month this year, now they want to do it again? For starters they could use a thermostat to control the heaters instead of turning them on is october and letting them go full out until april, that would save a ton of money.You know its bad when you have to open your windows in the middle of a winter blizzard to cool down your room to a comfortable level. I'v only been in one PMQ on base, and it was a mess, but the people who lived there were very messy, so its hard to tell. I heard about a fire in the PMQ's a couple years ago. I geuse to to very bad construction, an electrical fire started in teh basement, and due to the construction of the house, the fire flashed through the walls and in a few minutes the hole house was on fire. From what i have heard, nothing was done to the existing PMQ's.


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## gun plumber (25 Oct 2004)

I know when I lived in Borden on Sask.Blvd,the Q I lived in was drafty and leaky.Heat was my biggest expense.It was killer.At least where I'm at now,heat is included,thank god!


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## armyrules (25 Oct 2004)

I think raising the rent for the soldiers is INSANE :rage: the soldiers shouldn't even have to pay rent after what they do for this country this is how they repay them the whole situation is ridiculous I hope other people share my opinion


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## foerestedwarrior (25 Oct 2004)

source, Toronto Sun http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/25/684165.html








Mon, October 25, 2004 


Grunts stiffed again

Soldiers face up to $100 a month more for housing

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU

Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class' 


   

CANADA'S cash-strapped soldiers living in military homes will see their rents hiked by up to $100 on Nov. 1. Defence department spokesman Tina Crouse said the Canadian Forces Housing Agency will increase rents on bases across the country to bring them in line with surrounding rental prices. 

"For the small number of occupants who have not reached appraised shelter values, their rent will continue to increase until they are paying based on the appraised value of their home," Crouse said. 

PAY INCREASE APRIL '03 

Crouse said about half the military's 15,000 homes and apartments will see a rent increase to a monthly maximum of $100. 

The boost comes while soldiers haven't seen their pay increased since April 2003, when they received a 2.5% hike. The lowest-paid private makes $26,616, while a sergeant can receive a maximum salary of $53,484. 

Crouse said those rents that are in line with local prices won't be hiked, and some could be lowered if there's been a drop in the rental market. 

The agency began increasing rents in 1997 on orders from the Treasury Board. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. evaluates the value of the home and sets the rent amount. 

But CMHC doesn't take into account the substandard construction of many military houses, where poor insulation means skyrocketing heating bills and frozen food in the cupboards. 

Some bases are under a boil-water order. And soldiers complain that exterior renovations are only done on homes near busy streets or tourist attractions. 

Tory MP Jay Hill said he's got thousands of names on a petition to freeze military rents until the Liberals authorize necessary repair work. 

"It's going to take decades to bring the homes up to an acceptable standard at the rate they're investing in them," Hill said. 

About 20% of Canadian Forces members live in military quarters at 23 bases across the country. 

Hill said the cash crunch in the military has translated into substandard housing and delapidated bases where lawns aren't mowed and potholes don't get filled. 

"We're into the bubble situation where they've been deprived of adequate funds for so many years, all of a sudden you reach a crisis point, and that's what's happened with the housing," Hill said.


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## foerestedwarrior (25 Oct 2004)

Toronto Sun again  http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/25/684167.html

Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class'

Grunts stiffed again

By JASON BOTCHFORD, TORONTO SUN

Grunts stiffed again 


  

MILITARY PERSONNEL at CFB Borden say they are being treated like second-class soldiers as another year brings yet another rent hike. Having his rent go up $100 -- 14% -- next month is nothing new for Phil Hoolboom. 

The Canadian military aviation technician has suffered through similar rent increases -- which are just about unheard of in the civilian world -- every year since he was posted to CFB Borden four years ago. 

When he arrived from Saskatchewan in 2000 his rent was $300. On Nov. 1 it will be $800. On a fixed income, the rapid increase has had a dramatic impact on his quality of life 

"It's going to be a lean Christmas this year," Hoolboom, 43, who has two young children and another on the way, said yesterday. 

Hoolboom and many others who live at CFB Borden, near Barrie, are incredulous that their rent is set to the going rate of nearby civilian subdivisions. 

THEIR HOUSING IS OLD 

The problem, they said, is that their aluminum-siding bungalows are more than 40 years old and substandard. 

"For us to pay the same as they do in downtown Barrie in new homes is outrageous," Hoolboom said. 

It costs the Hoolboom family $185 a month to heat the house in the winter. His wife Anna said they "absolutely feel second class." 

Residents at Borden said rent increases are a money grab and all profit as the homes were paid off decades ago. 

"They are going to make more in the next two months rent then these homes cost to build," said technician Dan Reardon. 

"There is no way you could ever get $500 in rent for these places if they were in (nearby) Angus or Barrie," said Reardon. "It's just not worth it for me to pay rent here when I could be paying down a mortgage. They are driving people into the housing market. But the problem with buying a house is that I am going to get burned when I'm posted somewhere else and forced to sell."


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## foerestedwarrior (25 Oct 2004)

Well we are getting some recognition for being screwed over this. Some public presure to not do this should help.


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## garb811 (25 Oct 2004)

Axeman:   Not to stir your pot but the way you're describing Lancaster Park makes it sound like the Garrison is miles away from Edmonton.   In actual fact the northern city limit abuts the south edge of the base so it is indeed closer to Edmonton than Morinville, or any other nearby town of any size.   There is even talk from time to time about the city expropriating the land around the base to bring it into the city, but Strathcona County always resists the idea because they don't want to lose the Grants in Lieu of Taxes the base generates.   Considering the amount of development at the North end of 97th Ave in the last several years, you actually have easier access to the some of the "big name" stuff than people who actually live in Edmonton since it's a 5 minute drive (once you're actually off the base) from the Garrison to the shopping area at Namao Corners.   5 years from now the houses and stores will be right at the south edge of the base.   The only "amenity" lacking is public transport, which I agree is a huge problem for families, but on the other hand folks living downtown don't have public transport to access the "free/cheap" stuff like the MFRC and Rec Center like the PMQ folks do, not to mention the brand new elementary school which was just built.


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## axeman (25 Oct 2004)

Not to be stirring the pot or anything my point was nice and simple LP is not in edmonton  it is outside the city limits we pay insurance rates as to morinville so why are we not paying costs as to morinville . yes i agree the city has grown leaps and bounds north and there again is talk of approriating the land .there have been many services thrown up towards the base . but the statement that rings true is we are not part of the EDMONTON CITY but the greater area


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## Storm (25 Oct 2004)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> Here in Vancouver, the PMQs are in a great area!   In fact, it's so great, that we are surrounded by million dollar homes.   You can just imagine what that does to our rent, being based on the local economy and all.   People who live in this area make about 5 times what I do!   The base shelter value for my home is over $1100!!!!!   Thankfully, they can't charge us more than 25% of our pay!   Even still, I pay over $800 for this lovely non-insulated leaky PMQ.     :   The response we get whenever we complain is move and go live on the economy.   Then.....in order to live somewhere I could afford I would have a 2 hour commute to work.



2 hrs??? East Van to Jericho (assuming that's where the work is) would take 45 min max by bus or 15 min by car. Less if you're going to Seaforth. :dontpanic: (sorry, couldn't resist)

Honestly though, this housing thing is disgusting. As sick as it is that I'm actually having such a thought, it's too bad the fire was on a sub and not in the PMQ's (though it's even more unfortunate that it takes an event such as that to draw actual attention to military issues). I think we should start another petition as well: MP's must live in PMQ's, or at least stay in them rather than hotels when travelling. See how long it takes for them to be made liveable then...


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## Sh0rtbUs (25 Oct 2004)

Yes, but would you really want an MP for a neighbor?  ;D


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## beach_bum (25 Oct 2004)

Storm said:
			
		

> 2 hrs??? East Van to Jericho (assuming that's where the work is) would take 45 min max by bus or 15 min by car. Less if you're going to Seaforth. :dontpanic: (sorry, couldn't resist)



I could not afford a house even in East Van.....at least not anything I would have my child live in.  To find a safe, clean house and neighborhood that I could afford would put me out in Maple Ridge or Abbotsford.


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## Storm (26 Oct 2004)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> I could not afford a house even in East Van.....at least not anything I would have my child live in.


And that's why I wasn't being serious.



			
				Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> Yes, but would you really want an MP for a neighbor? ;D


Oops, hadn't thought of that.    I take that suggestion back.


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## jmacleod (26 Oct 2004)

Military housing is in the   hands of a bureaucratic agency called the Canadian Forces Housing Agency
which, like all Federal bureaucracies was created with great intentions which were never realized.
Used to be that PMQ's were administered by the Chief Administrative Officer with a staff, and
maintained by the "works and bricks" people in Construction Engineering. PMQ's were in short
supply and hard to get into, but were comfortable, well maintained and were an integral part
of the Base community - but managed under the direction ultimately of the Base Commander
and his staff. The value of these structures should be determined by liason with CMHC, based
on their assessment criteria, and not "market driven". In Halifax, houses that I know cost about
$35,000. to build in the 1960's are now selling in many cases in excess of $200,000. and that
artificial increase in value is what drives the cost of public (military) housing up, according to
DND bureaucrats, who do not occupy sub standard military housing, and should know better.
Ironically, the same problem is reported from time to time in the US Military - the Military.com
site is an excellent source of information and opinion about the US Armed Forces. MacLeod


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## Hoplite (26 Oct 2004)

The thing that really gets my ire in this housing situation is CFHA's stance.  SCONDVA interviewed the CEO of CFHA earlier this year, and the proceedings were televised on CPAC.  During the interview the CEO, Olga Massicotte, told the committee outright that if members are unsatisfied they can move on the economy.  A terribly effective solution if you ask me.  Be a pretty sweet job to direct 16,000 empty units.  

Now I realize that there are Treasury Department regulations governing how they operate.  I also understand that the government wants out of that market.  And there are probably a number of other reasons that could be listed justifying the rent increases, from the government perspective that is.  The one thing I cannot accept is the behaviour of CFHA.  To my mind, that attitude of "if you don't like it leave" is terribly disrespectful.  We are all part of the same organization. 

Not that I would expect a mandarin to really grasp the finer points of the military's ethos....


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## bossi (26 Oct 2004)

Hoplite said:
			
		

> During the interview the CEO, Olga Massicotte, told the committee outright that if members are unsatisfied they can move on the economy ...
> 
> Not that I would expect a mandarin to really grasp the finer points of the military's ethos....



Hmmm ... I wonder how much her salary is, and who appointed her ... ?


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## PPCLI Guy (26 Oct 2004)

Heretic time....

What the heck are we doing in the housing business anyway?   We have to be the world's worst landlords (which is, in a way, reassuring).   We need to focus on our corps competency, which is creating and employing combat power.   Given enough forewarning, the market will provide housing much more efficiently than the CF ever could.   I say we announce that 3 years from now, MQs will all be sold.   Then give soldiers a rent allowance (a la PLD) to ensure that they can look after their families, and be done with it.   By then, rental units will be available in places like Shilo and Pet ('cus if there is a market, someone will provide the product/service) and we can focus on what we do, instead of where we live.

Now I know that I am about to be eviscerated for the following:

1.   I am a LCol - easy for me to say.   Well, I rent in TO - cus I have to (my training wife has a nice house...) and I can afford to thanks to PLD.
2.   What about support to deployed families?   Well, if only 30% of pers live in MQs, how are we serving the other 70%?
3.   What about Van (or TO, or Mtl, or whatever)?   Well, simply increase the PLD.
4.   No one will build houses in Pet / Shilo etc.   Well, if there is a demand, it will be filled - and hence the 3 year lag time.   pers in Pet are moving back into MQs to cash in on the real estate market...

Dave


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## bossi (26 Oct 2004)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> We need to focus on our corps competency, which is creating and employing combat power.



Aren't there any benefits to esprit de corps and unit cohesion from a feeling of community ... ?
Also, consider the added (unnecessary?) hardships imposed upon dependants while their spouses are overseas if they're arbitrarily scattered to the four corners of the civilian housing market ... (remember to consider the entire rank spectrum).

Perhaps a viable alternative could be a compromise ... ?
(also keeping in mind "one size doesn't fit all" ...)
A designated/"sponsored" sub-division of lease-to-own homes/condo's/whatever.  A little bit like the "company store", but at least it could simulate a sense of community.
At present we have many examples of "public housing" developments - yes, some turn into ghetto's, but others provide an oasis from REAL slums.


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## PPCLI Guy (27 Oct 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> Aren't there any benefits to esprit de corps and unit cohesion from a feeling of community ... ?



Sure - but at what cost?  How about the 20% Reservists on msns?



> Also, consider the added (unnecessary?) hardships imposed upon dependants while their spouses are overseas if they're arbitrarily scattered to the four corners of the civilian housing market ... (remember to consider the entire rank spectrum).



Again - is the cost defensible, given that less than 30 % of pers live in Qs?



> Perhaps a viable alternative could be a compromise ... ?
> (also keeping in mind "one size doesn't fit all" ...)
> A designated/"sponsored" sub-division of lease-to-own homes/condo's/whatever.  A little bit like the "company store", but at least it could simulate a sense of community.



Hmmm.  Kinda like being a bit pregnant...


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## Brad Sallows (27 Oct 2004)

Yes, the market in principle will provide housing.

What effect does relocation of a battalion have in the short term?  I would love to have some disposable income to snap up some homes when a unit changes lodgings and leaves.  (Tough luck on the equity, soldier.)  I would love to be in some possession of some vacant housing when a unit changes lodgings and arrives.  (It's called supply and demand, soldier, and the supply is short right now.)


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## pbi (27 Oct 2004)

I was once a 100% convert to the idea of PMQs. I am not so sure anymore. Here is a question: if we say that op effectiveness of a unit is affected by family support issues (not an unreasonable situation in an Army with a high proportion of married soldiers), then we probably would also say that having a safe and secure place for one's dependents to live is a "family support issue", too, right?

OK. So-if we call up a Res unit for action (be quiet for a minute and listen....) and send it away, will it be any less effective because NONE of its members live in a military community, or even live near each other at all?  I don 't consider that living in distant neighborhoods in the same city (ie Westwood and Transcona, or Etobicoke and Scarborough) is living "near each other".

Is the issue that they live in a military community, or that we offer high quality family support to ALL familiies, pretty much as we try to do now? Cheers.


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## bossi (27 Oct 2004)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> "Aren't there any benefits to esprit de corps and unit cohesion from a feeling of community ... ?"
> Sure - but at what cost? How about the 20% Reservists on msns?





			
				pbi said:
			
		

> Is the issue that they live in a military community, or that we offer high quality family support to ALL familiies, pretty much as we try to do now?



Excellent/valid points, however ...
Much empirical data exists (and increasingly so) about reservists suffering more following their return from overseas operations - I posit that this is due to a lack of support groups that would more readily be found in a more closely knit community (i.e. in the same manner that a reservist doesn't have quite the same peer support group when talking to other employees at their civilian workplace, as opposed to others who were on tour, the dependants of reservists are similarly isolated from isolated from the support network of other families going through the same experiences - full credit goes to the MRFCs for their get-togethers and mailing both while the troops are overseas and afterwards, by the way - they've taken a page from history ...).

I say that because I recall my family talking about the Regimental families getting together during and after the Second World War - this, from a Militia battalion whose members were literally scattered all over and around Toronto due to the simple fact they were all citizen soldiers prior to Sep 1939.

"A bit pregnant"?  Sure.  However, it's just like saying somebody "is a bit messed up" post-deployment.
In order to see the road ahead, it's often useful to look in the rearview mirror to see where we've been.

Ajax, Ontario was largely built as housing for soldiers returning from overseas and continuing their education (and also named after HMS Ajax, but I digress ...).  There are a number of papers recently written identifying the differences between the post-war experience, and modern day "penny-packeting" of invisible veterans (even Veterans Affairs realises there's a problem).

Sorry - I remain convinced that a "one size fits all" solution such as completely divesting DND of PMQs would be a mistake of huge proportions (i.e. a "bureaucratic, civilian mandarin mentality" solution to a soldier's problem ... sorta like "alternate service delivery", eh ... ?  Now THERE is a brainfart of epic proportions ... civilianising so many positions that we've lost critical mass vis-a-vis having a proportionate number of jobs for soldiers to do between operations ... and reducing the total number of soldiers available for taskings ... okay - I'd better get back on topic ...)  

Just because historical solutions to housing for soldiers and their families are old-fashioned does NOT mean they are ineffective - sometimes the "wisdom of the ages" carries on.
Sometimes what seems to be a brilliant idea is merely a flash in the pan.


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## Brad Sallows (27 Oct 2004)

If you wanted to study the effect of mobilizing a reserve unit, you would need to include in the data the fact that reservists generally also don't relocate as frequently as regulars and consequently have more time to integrate into their civilian communities.  There is also the increased likelihood that reservists have long-term friends or family reasonably nearby.


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## Long in the tooth (27 Oct 2004)

In my four postings I've never been able to get a PMQ, even though I would've preferred being able to walk to work.  In other words, there was a heavy demand for military housing that was not met.  And what was fair about those in PMQs given three days to pack and load while the rest of us subhumans were granted only two?  When my property taxes are a good fraction of PMQ rents (and rising) it's difficult to have sympathy.


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## bossi (27 Oct 2004)

Okay, prompted by "pbi", I dug up a proven, historical precedent to support my earlier proposal re: innovative solutions for military housing  - Ajax, Ontario - as fol:



> In 1945, World War II ended, but not Ajax. As the young veterans returned home, accommodation was required for thousands of additional university students. Consequently, the University of Toronto leased much of the D.I.L. plant to house the new flood of engineering students. War machines were moved out and the buildings were converted to classrooms and laboratories. The residences that had housed war workers now housed university students. All the facilities of the University of Toronto were duplicated at Ajax. By 1949, the last year of the University of Toronto, Ajax Division, some 7,000 engineering students had received their basic training here.
> 
> But what was to become of Ajax? Many people who worked or lived in Ajax during D.I.L. or university days wanted to remain here. *Due largely to the vision of George W. Finley of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, Ajax became a planned modern community using the war time base for its post-war foundation.* The sword was now beaten into ploughshares. Post-war Ajax began its growth.
> 
> Industry and people came from everywhere to take advantage of the many assets of Ajax - its schools, its churches, its hospital, its steam plant, its comprehensive planning, its geography - close to Toronto but setting a separate pace - and its friendly, industrious, involved citizens.


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## pbi (28 Oct 2004)

Hmmmm-where does that leave us, bossi?  Cheers


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## bossi (29 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Hmmmm-where does that leave us, bossi?  Cheers



You win vis-a-vis being correct about Ajax originally being housing for wartime workers.
I win because it's also a documented example of a viable solution for military housing.

Moving right along ... here's reference to living conditions ...

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/29/691449.html

*SANTA TO HELP ARM TROOPS*
BUT IT'S TOYS, NOT GUNS, SOLDIERS' FAMILIES NEED
By Stephanie Rubec, Ottawa Bureau - Fri, October 29, 2004 

MILITARY BASES across Canada are aiming to bring a little holiday cheer to soldiers and their families. Padres, military resource centres and good Samaritans are banding together to buy Christmas hampers and toys for the families of low-ranking soldiers. 

At CFB Cold Lake, Alta., for instance, a silent auction will be held Nov. 24 in hopes of raising about $10,000 to buy turkeys and all the trimmings for soldiers. 

FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY 

Sheila Firth-Warlund, a Cold Lake Madre, said what money is left over will be made available to soldiers in financial difficulty. 

"There are people who are struggling to make ends meet," Firth-Warlund said. "Especially at the lower ranks, the salary isn't very high." 

Firth-Warlund said tops on her needy list are new recruits who earn a private's base salary of $26, 616. 

With the push in recruiting over the past years, today's privates often have a family, or are single parents struggling to make ends meet. 

"All you've got to do is do the math. How are they going to have anything left over for Christmas?" said Elizabeth McCarthy, the co-ordinator for CFB Trenton's Angela Hayden adopt-a-family program. 

"We have a lot of older privates and that's who we'll be looking after again this year." 

McCarthy said many military families get into financial troubles because they're moved to a new base every three years and face the costs of starting over in a new community. 

'DOWN ON THEIR LUCK' 

"They have nowhere to turn for help," she said. "Welfare doesn't want to look at them, the soup kitchens don't want to look at them and the Knights of Columbus say they're not eligible." 

Trenton's St. Paul High School has launched its annual fundraiser to buy Christmas hampers and gifts for soldiers and their families. 

Last Christmas, about 40 military and civilian families received a turkey and many got gifts, McCarthy said. 

"The same thing happens to military families as it does to people on the street. They get down on their luck," she said.


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

Ok-bossi: fair. We'll split one. Your choice: come out to the 'Peg when I'm on HLTA in Dec, or we'll take a rain check till next time  I'm back in the Big Smoke. Cheers.


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## GerryCan (30 Oct 2004)

Out of 3 PMQ's I've had, I've never had one with a mold problem, frozen food in cupboards or any major sewer malfunctions.
Actually CFHA is probably one of the better landlords I've had. I had a pipe burst at 6pm on a friday and I called housing and they had someone there by 20 after. I can't seeing that happening as promptly with most civie landlords.  Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never heard of any one else in Pet with any crazy problems like mentioned before.
Yeah the rent is a little high that's for sure, and the increasing rates are getting old fast but all in all I can't complain too much.
Don't get me wrong though, I do plan on buying as soon as this next tour is up for the simple fact that I hate living on the base, but again, can't complain.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Nov 2004)

Talk about dumps

MILITARY WIFE FIGHTS FOR BETTER HOUSING ON BASE 
By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU

A MILITARY wife is turning up pressure on the feds to improve living conditions in military housing where occupants were slapped with up to $100 rent hikes today. Sheri Gauthier is setting up a Web site to shed light on the poor conditions of military homes after her petition condemning the living situation was supported by thousands. 

" I didn't think that it would keep going with so much momentum," said Gauthier who has lived on seven Canadian bases and is now at CFB Cold Lake, which she ranks as the nicest base so far. 

Gauthier hopes that by airing the dismal condition of military homes, the feds will be embarrassed into action. 

The defence department says about half the military homes are in dire need of repair and plagued with black mould, poor insulation and drafts. 

"We are familiar with this issue and it is becoming less and less common as houses are being upgraded," said Tina Crouse, defence department spokesperson. 

Crouse said that in 2005 about 190 units at nine bases will be completely upgraded to today's standards and every home is eligible for emergency and health and safety repairs. 

MARKET PRICE 

Soldiers and their families from Halifax to B.C. complain they are paying steep rents for homes that don't meet today's standards. 

Treasury Board requires that all military housing be brought in line with local market prices, provoking big rent hikes. 

"What is shocking and disgusting are the decrepit houses and accommodations that these military personnel have to live in and pay the same rent their civilian counterparts pay for more modern housing," retired warrant officer Mike Fournier said. 

"Many houses are subject to damp or flooding basements, doors and windows improperly sealed and black mould growing inside the wall causing potentially dangerous living conditions," said a soldier who asked not to be named. 

A military wife said that because of the poor insulation "we once had our couch freeze to the wall on base in Calgary."


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## PPCLI Guy (1 Nov 2004)

> "What is shocking and disgusting are the decrepit houses and accommodations that these military personnel have to live in and pay the same rent their civilian counterparts pay for more modern housing," retired warrant officer Mike Fournier said.



So rent a civie house....


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## McG (1 Nov 2004)

Took my daughter out for Haloween last night.  She could not get the door bell to work at one of the PMQs, so I knocked for her.   At least, I tried to.  My hand knocked the door open without even enough force to make a sound.  I pulled the door shut (properly) and tried again.  Again the door popped open.  That's quality housing there.


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## pbi (2 Nov 2004)

> Crouse said that in 2005 about 190 units at nine bases will be completely upgraded to today's standards and every home is eligible for emergency and health and safety repairs.



I sincerely hope the latter statement is correct. In 2001, at the Oakville PMQ site of ASU Toronto, I waited nearly two months for a "health and safety" repair to my house. After numerous phone calls(including to the national emergency this was eventually done. A great part of the problem, IMHO, was the removal of the CE Det from the site, and its replacement with an apparently dysfunctional contracting system that had subcontractors driving in from miles away (ie Barrie to Oakville) to do work. I hope things are better. Cheers.


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## OLD F of S (2 Nov 2004)

Rent a civie house sounds like LET THEM EAT CAKE.


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## rifleman (2 Nov 2004)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> So rent a civie house....



Leadership Technique #1 

If a subordinate raises an issue that needs to be dealt with, tell him to get another job


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Nov 2004)

OLD F of S said:
			
		

> Rent a civie house sounds like LET THEM EAT CAKE.





> Leadership Technique #1
> If a subordinate raises an issue that needs to be dealt with, tell him to get another job



Gents,

You both know that is not how I meant it.  I was just struck by the statement that civies renting houses were getting a much better house for the same amount of rent - which led me to the conclusion that it would make more sense to rent a civie house.


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## McG (2 Nov 2004)

Assuming that the civilian housing market has houses to be rented.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Nov 2004)

haha your Marie Antoinette.


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## pbi (3 Nov 2004)

PPCLI Guy: to the guillotine with you, you cake-eating, champagne-swilling oppressor of the masses!!

I know what you meant, but the other guys are right: it didn't come across very well.

However, having finally (after 20 years of PMQs) bought a small house in the Peg, and paying less for mortgage and taxes than I paid to rent a sub-standard PMQ in Oakville, I would encourage any service couple who can afford it to get out of the Qs and into the housing market. It is highly dependent on where you live and obviously on your income level (I would never even have dreamed of it as a Lt or junior Capt...) but if you can see your way, go for it. I can guarantee you will not want to go back. Cheers.


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## Slim (16 Nov 2004)

Everyones favourite fan of the CF speaks yet again...

Tue, November 16, 2004 


*Feds to lower forces' rents?*

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/11/16/716368.html

By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU

DEFENCE MINISTER Bill Graham is lobbying the treasury board to lower rents on military housing that are not up to par. "I understand this is a morale problem in the forces and I want to address it. It's important," Graham told Sun Media in an interview. 

Graham said the military homes he's seen are of "an older quality" and need renovations, so soldiers living in them should pay less rent than they would for a similar sized home off the base. 

Treasury board requires that all military houses be rented for the same price as a similar house off-site. 

Graham said he's asked treasury board president Reg Alcock to re-visit the rules as it applies to the Canadian Forces' homes. 

'APPLES TO APPLES' 

"The rents should be calculated on the basis of comparable properties, not on the basis of general principles about what it's worth," he said. "Apples to apples." 

Some soldiers living in the 16,690 homes and apartments on Canada's bases complain that many are so poorly insulated their food freezes in their cupboards and black mold is in the walls. 

Rents were hiked by a maximum of $100 Nov. 1 to bring those homes that were not in line with the local market values up to the average rental costs. 

Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant accused the Liberal government of making the rank-and-file pay for cuts to the defence budget with "huge rent increases."


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Nov 2004)

Well that would be welcome news if it ever panned out.


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## foerestedwarrior (18 Nov 2004)

source, the Toronto Sun: 18 Nov 2004

Rent break for forces by holidays?



By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU


  

TREASURY BOARD President Reg Alcock is considering giving Canadian soldiers an early Christmas present -- a break on their military rents. Alcock said his staff is probing whether the Canadian Forces Housing Agency is properly applying federal rules requiring that the rents on military homes be comparable to similar houses in their area. 

"If there is a flaw in the way the policy is applied, that's something that could probably be addressed fairly quickly," Alcock said in an interview yesterday. 

Alcock said he's awaiting a report on whether that policy is fair to soldiers and their families. 

"We'll get this addressed. It shouldn't take long," he said. "I can't imagine why it should take a long time. Christmas is another six more weeks. Hopefully it will be sooner." 

Rents on some of the 16,690 military homes and apartments on bases across Canada were raised by up to $100 Nov. 1 in an effort to bring them in line with local rental prices.


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## white (18 Nov 2004)

If they were to match the rent of the houses in the area to those on the base then wouldn't alot more people move off base to live. In the end they might lose more money then they're trying to make.


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## gun plumber (18 Nov 2004)

Alot of people live on base for various reasons.It could be convinience(I for one like leaving for work at 0745 and still make it on time to have a smoke,chat, get a coffee and start at 0800),cost of local housing(the property around Wain world has sky rocketed with the influx of people),or the seemingly lower cost of rent in a PMQ(at least you don't have to pay for your own house repairs).
It's not a matter of turning a profit.For the amount of upkeep these houses require,there losing money anyways or at least,breaking even.A lot of people live off base anyways.The big thing here is,that when a civilian market controls the rent,you get unfair rent fees.
I don't know exactly how they do it,but it's out in left field.If I said to you"A 3bdrm duplex in Barrie costs 600.00 plus utilities.Therefor,a 3 bdrm duplex in Borden should cost 600.00 plus utilities"then that would seem fair.But hold on....the duplex in Barrie was built in 1985.It's been maintained,good backyard,If something goes wrong,it's dealt with immeadiatly,and is close to all conviences.600.00 dollars is still fair.
But lets look at the one on base.....built in 1950 for a boom in personal.has been maintained,but due to the gov't tender system,the maintaince preformed was sloppy and done on the cheap.(lowest bidder after all).The backyard looks like a WW1 overgrown battlefield,basic wiring of the PMQ is not even modern(who needs the only phone jack in the house to be upstairs beside the bathroom anyways?),long waits for even the most basic of repairs(no need to rush,I like the waterfall in my living room)and in the middle of nowhere where they roll the sidewalks up at 6 pm every day.
Now does it seem fair?
The Q I live in now in Wx is a palace compared to my last one(see above).If they do cut the rent the one thing they should do is put a freeze on it,suck back,reload and then redo thier calculations.Right now there are people of lower ranks with families who can't afford to buy a house,or are restricted to living on base for other reasons.
I don't think I awnsered any questions,so sorry for the rant.It's one of the things I'm passionate about.
and don't even get me started on Mr Noodles(I lived off them for awhile when my rent almost equaled my income!)


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## foerestedwarrior (19 Nov 2004)

ya, i dont live in teh Q's in Borden, but i know alot of people that do, i heard its ridiculous, rent is like $8-900, plus utilities, and they are in dispicable condition. It is stupid, and some one is making alot of money off all of this.


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## annemarielyman (19 Nov 2004)

Would you recommend moving into MQ's or looking in the local market. I've read some things in this forum that are starting to make me a bit nervous about taking one of these places sight unseen.

FYI: My husband is not in yet (waiting for offer). So, I don't have a clue where or when we'll be moving.


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## Armymedic (19 Nov 2004)

There aren't great annmarielynman, but if you and your husband can't afford to buy a house, PMQ's are definately better then trying to move into an apartment with a family. Also as a new military family, there is a small advantage for you as a military wife moving into a niebourghood were all you nieghbours know and understand what you are going thru. 

CFHA is attempting to make the PMQ better. If moving into a PMQ is what you have to do, take your time and look around, ask for two or three to look at and pick the one that most suits you.


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## patt (19 Nov 2004)

foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> ya, i dont live in teh Q's in Borden, but i know alot of people that do, i heard its ridiculous, rent is like $8-900, plus utilities, and they are in dispicable condition. It is stupid, and some one is making alot of money off all of this.



damn right they are, they re-did my house before i moved up to the north side and i can say they did a poor job..


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## bossi (22 Nov 2004)

Maybe I'm simply getting up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, but ...
Grrrr ... I wonder about several quotes in this article
(and, why do I suspect Colin doesn't live in a crumby PMQ ... "let them eat cake"?)

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/11/22/725427.html



> "I've seen a number of the units in a number of the bases over the years myself and I think the rents are reasonable and fair and equitable," said Colin Crumb of Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corp ...
> but admitted that his team only looks at a few units per base before recommending rates for all homes.



Feds defend military rents
By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU

THE FEDERAL agency that recommends rent levels for military housing defended them as fair and dismissed complaints that they're too steep. "I've seen a number of the units in a number of the bases over the years myself and I think the rents are reasonable and fair and equitable," said Colin Crumb of Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corp. 

"The rents are appropriate for the age of the housing." 

Crumb said he stands by the rents, but admitted that his team only looks at a few units per base before recommending rates for all homes. 

HOME EVALUATION 

Crumb said each and every military home across Canada used to be evaluated annually, but in the early '90s the Canadian Forces Housing Agency began handpicking which homes should be looked at. 

"The contract is they pick the unit, we set the fair market rent," Crumb said. 

Crumb's team then hunts for rental homes in the base's surrounding community that compare in age and quality to figure out what rent military families should pay. 

Some Canadian soldiers and their families have complained that they're paying too much rent for the quality of their homes, pointing to poor insulation, mould infestations and high heating costs.


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## McG (22 Nov 2004)

So, CFHA gets to pick the houses that all the rents will be based on.  Is there any incentive in there for CHFA to pick the house they just put a new kitchen in and not the typical house that still has the original (plus 1 cm of paint)?


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## AmmoTech90 (22 Nov 2004)

PMQ rent doesn't always go up...mine went down by a whole five bucks last assessment!

Just thought I'd thow that out there.


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## elbarto (26 Nov 2004)

For starters, long-time listener, first-time caller.

My experience with CFHA pretty much echoes everything stated earlier. However, IMO a service that CFHA has actually _improved_ upon would be the march-out inspection.

Under the old regime, a person had one of two options;

1.   Spend two days cleaning to the point where you could perform surgery in your 'Q.   This would be followed by an inspection so brutal it would leave even the meanest RSM curled on the floor sobbing. or...

2.   Pay a fee to Housing's cleaning service (somewhere around a hundred bucks if I recall) and they would waive the inspection.   This always struck me as kind of a racket.

With CFHA the march-out inspection seemed to be a formality, lasting all of five minutes, making sure all the lights were turned out.   Much less painless.


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## ruckup (13 Feb 2005)

I am trying to find out about PMQ availability in SH-Sh---brrr,,Shilo, I do not have a clue how to post a msg regarding this matter, can you please assist?
I know this is the wrong page to write too...I just happen to fluke out


Edited by Moderator to correct title.


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## Michael OLeary (13 Feb 2005)

Canadian Forces Housing Agency

Shilo

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/locations/shilo_h_e.asp


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

ruckup check your pm


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## jc5778 (14 Feb 2005)

sitting in one right now.  As for my opinion, my q is not bad, 4 bedroom duplex.  Cannot here my neighbours.  Alright yard, shared driveway.  But keep in mind your still on base.  If I knew I was here for a while then I would have bought a house.  Quite a few still empty, god luck!


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

7 - 10 days  
you know there is only 33 OT slots for BN this year.


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## gunneryfreak (17 Feb 2005)

Lived in Shilo for 7 yrs in a PMQ.  Call the base and ask the extension for CFHA to the operatorthe number is 204-765-3000.  Sme PMQs are in rough shape but because of the availibility that may still exist, you may get a few to pick from.  Be aware of the price for Natural gas and the fact that the PMQs are poorly insulated my bill went from 35/month to 82/month in seven years!!!!.  I must agree that with the low rates of interest currently, you should consider getting your own shack


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## Harris (11 Mar 2005)

For those Units that used Shannon Park for Exercises, the park is now no longer available as local Politicians and media have focused on it.  My Unit Ex was moved to Aldershot this weekend as a result.


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## jswift872 (11 Mar 2005)

what's your field ex for? I am doing my sq field ex there from today to thursday...


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## Roche (11 Mar 2005)

Thats too bad, we got some good training done there. Any word as to why they are specifically shuttin' er down?


----------



## Harris (11 Mar 2005)

We were going to be doing Platoon level Urban Operations.  As for a specific reason why, none was given to me.


----------



## jmacleod (11 Mar 2005)

The RCN Housing Facility "Shannon Park" was declared surplus several years ago by DND primarily
because the Canadian Navy did not have the resources, nor the Canadian Forces Housing Agency
to upgrade the buildings, then several decades old. There were several plans advocated by the
Halifax Regional Municipality, Canada Lands Corporation, DND, and private sector developers. One
concept was to demolish the still highly servicable buildings, and turn the area into a football stadium
(predicated on Halifax HRM attracting a Canadian Football League team, which was laughed out of
credibility when the cost of the proposed stadium, not including the cost of the DND lands was 
estimated at $60 million plus) Halifax HRM cannot because of its population, support a CFL Team
determined by a major study funded in part by the Government of Canada. There were proposals
to upgrade the facilities, which eventually reached the Minister responsible for Housing, MP Joe
Fontana, who last week in Halifax announced that the facilities would be renovated and provided
as housing for low income families. This is a highly acceptable idea, but we have indicated to the
local MP's from Halifax that care must be exercised to ensure Canadian Forces Personnel are provided
with access to new and upgraded housing, as older facilities become time worn and redundent. Thus
far there has been no reaction from CF or DND. Regards MacLeod


----------



## honestyrules (25 Mar 2005)

I wonder if it's true and if somebody has info on this.

It might be a local thing only...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (25 Mar 2005)

It wouldn't surprise me in the least and I doubt it is local.


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## honestyrules (25 Mar 2005)

The worst is that it would be something close to 100$.
But i don't want to spread any rumors here


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## Drummy (25 Mar 2005)

Hi all,

If any of you read/speak French, there is an ongoing thread about this in the French Forum. Unfortunately, I don't, so I can't tell you what they're saying. Maybe something tangible over there.    

All the best     Drummy


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## honestyrules (25 Mar 2005)

You're right Drummy ,i started this in the french section, in order to reach everybody who could answer on this!!!


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## McG (28 Mar 2005)

Every November new rents take effect.  This is done across the country.


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## McG (28 Mar 2005)

delavan said:
			
		

> The worst is that it would be something close to 100$.


That is the maximum that CFHA can raise the rent in any year.  Some PMQs may go up by that much and others may not.


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## Carman (30 Mar 2005)

The last time I lived in a "Q" was '99 and I swear i will never do it again! The living room window in our bungalow in Shilo was cracked around the frame; there was actually a gap in the wall in places so that you could see outside. In the winter there would be ice on the floor in the living room and on the walls. In the duplex we moved into the bathroom was upstairs on the second floor and the toilet leaked so bad the ceiling in the kitchen was sagging from the moisture. After months of calling CFHA finally sent a contractor in to do repairs and the man was embarrased as all he was allowed to do was tape the ceiling and paint. It took 2 people to close the dining room window; one person pushed from outside while the other turned the crank on the inside. Our inspections were no picnic either. CFHA gave us a white glove inspection. I was actually told I had to spray the dust off the siding. I couldn't believe the standards to which I had to clean when they would only patch things that needed major repairs. And every single bathroom I've ever been in in a "Q" has black mold on the tiles and the basements all leak. When you compare the problems with the rising cost of rents you are much better off living on the economy or buying a home. As for not being able to afford economy housing it's really not the cost of the housing the lower ranks can't afford it's the cost of the housing plus the car payments and new furniture/computer payments. And as for cleaning costs being only $100.....................I've never seen them lower than $350 for a 2 bedroom bungalow and close to $500 for a duplex ( the cost is so high because it's covered in your move pkg by IRP )


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## Badanai (31 Mar 2005)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> PMQ rent doesn't always go up...mine went down by a whole five bucks last assessment!
> 
> Just thought I'd thow that out there.



What I was told by CFHA if you have a rent decrease on your last assessment your rent has already equalized to the local martket value of the home. So if the market goes up so will the rent if the market go down again so will your rent. The scary fact if a house on the local market is in far better shape and conditon and any PMQ out there. When I was posted to Cold Lake it was impossible to buy a house they were way too expensive so I had no choice but to move into a PMQ. they have you by the BALLS in areas like those.
Now I am in Trenton my house is the same size I *don't* have a garage like I did in Cold Lake and my rent is almost $100 more.
Still saving for that down payment


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## Long in the tooth (31 Mar 2005)

I have my "Statement and demand for municipal and school taxes" in front of me.  No PMQs avail.  $3809.71.  Yes, the $56 PLD (taxable) will go a long way towards that.  Crocodile tears all round, mates.


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## AirForceWife (2 Apr 2005)

Good old talk about PMQ's.   In Kingston, we had a 1050 sq ft 2bdrm duplex.   We paid $650/month,  plus hydro was about $60-70 per month, plus the water of $15 (I think?)... then there came the gas bill  :  If it werent for the Equal Billing Payment plan, in the winter we would have been paying $230-$290 for heat for our tiny duplex.  All because of the lovely 1/2" gap between the door in our backyard, and the doorframe, and the gaps from the window's as well.  Needless to say in the summer, we got spiders, mosquitos,ants, earwigs, everything coming in from back there.  The draft was terrible as well.   Not to mention we had a closet that was growing mould very quicly a few months after we moved in, and it took 2 months for CFHA to come in and look at it.Within those two months they just told us to wash the walls with bleach, they refused to come over and look at it. They never did until we called Ottawa about it, then the next day an inspector showed up and he was horrified that we had more mould on the wall, then the white paint.  They had to tear down the jiprock and all, and Preventive Medicine said it was due to poor insulation.   Yet, cfha had the nerve to try to make us pay for this (almost $1000) when the PMed Officer said it was not our fault.   The bill went up the chain of command, only to come back down saying we were not responsible due to what PMed said. Then the day of our move, our housing manager came to our door yet again, and told us to give us the money or she would not seize our rent. So, after talking to the CO the day our movers were there, we paid it and filed a greivance (still waiting to get the $$ back). 

So, needless to say we will never move back into a PMQ.   Its not worth the hassle of what they try to make you responsible for,  plus the price of a house that hasnt been maintained , plus the utilities that suffer because of the lack of maintnance,  it wasnt worth the $900+ we were paying in total per month.   We would have moved, but on a Ocdt pay the $$ dont just pop out of nowhere to pay all the costs for moving.

Just thought Id put in our horrid CFHA experience here.


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## civvy3840 (4 Apr 2005)

I might go to college and if I do I will live in the dorms. The college I am thinking about going to is close to the unit but out of walking/ running distance. I probably won't have a car because I can't afford it. So I was thinking of taking a bus to the armouries. If I do this am I aloud to wear my combats on the bus or just change when I get there? Also do they offer housing to reserve guys? if so is it expensive? I don't want to come off like a cheap skate but I probably wont have a lot of money.

thanks


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## Navalsnpr (4 Apr 2005)

I see many people in Halifax ride the bus to/from work in NCD's and CADPAT. It is an approved "Walking Out" dress therefore there should be no reason why you wouldn't be permitted to wear your uniform on the bus.

As for housing for Reservists, unless you are on a full time callout, I would believe that you are out of luck.


----------



## Haggis (4 Apr 2005)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> I see many people in Halifax ride the bus to/from work in NCD's and CADPAT. It is an approved "Walking Out" dress therefore there should be no reason why you wouldn't be permitted to wear your uniform on the bus.



Quite true.  Commuting to/from your unit in any order of dress is acceptable with two caveats:

1. Ensure your uniform is presentable (wearing mud covered CADPAT home from an exercise will not make you popular with a cab driver)
2. Many public transit providers frown on large carry-on items such as rucksacks and duffel bags.  Store your field kit at your unit.



> As for housing for Reservists, unless you are on a full time callout, I would believe that you are out of luck.



Again, true.  While on Class "A" service, housing is an individual responsibility.  If you're on a call out of a year or more you can get free rations and quarters if any are available.  Failing that you can apply for subsidzed housing on some (but not all) bases.


----------



## civvy3840 (4 Apr 2005)

Alright thanks


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## Nomadfl (8 Apr 2005)

As a retired soldier, I retired in 1980 with 27 full years of service. I bought my first home in London in 1966. I was a Cpl, and  after being offered a 2 bedroom PMQ, when I had  a wife and 2 kids...the home was not big enough for a family. So I went out on the market bought a brand new home. I scraped together the downpayment, the interest rate was 7% then. After getting transferred to Montreal in 1971, selling my home in London, then buying a home outside of Montreal. I got posted to Calgary 1976.  I sold my home outside of Montreal. I couldn't take time to go to Calgary to find a place...so I was lucky and got a 4 bdrm unit semi-detached. I had 4 children now. . The neighbours told me that that was the dirtiest home in the PMQ's. The soldier who was there had walked away from the army and his family. So when she left, she packed up her kids and walked. The unit was then painted with gloss white paint...right over all the dirt...when we arrived..it was take it or walk...A truck load of furniture, and a wife and 4 young children. I then started looking for a home off the base..I did, I bought a place, and only spent 3 months in PMQ's. I was then posted to Toronto in 1979. I sold my house for a considerable profit.

My story is...I would never live in a PMQ again. I got some wifes in Calgary to picket the front gate of the base over the housing conditions...and their husbands got in trouble...or as I said they "chickened out" and let the army screw them...that's them not me.

I see people living in PMQ's and making good money...and don't tell me you don't make good money. I see all the pickup trucks, the boats, the campers...all the toys..Joe down the road gets a new truck ...you all got to get a new truck.

I see people retiring, who don't have a pot to piss in, they then have to adjust to a new life, and maybe try to buy a home, and start a mortgage...it's too damn late.

Just stop buying the "Toys for Big Boys" and save some money for a down payment...the interest rates are at lowest in over half a century...I was paying over 14%  on a mortgage once. I invested in a home, and to me it payed off in spades...it's your choice...Toys for Big Boys....or a home for your family...all paid off when you retire.

I only made it to Sgt., pay level 6...my top pay in 1979 was $20,000/year

So the moral of the story is don't complain...buy a home and move out, or rent off base, and get away from that PMQ mentality

The choice is yours


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## Long in the tooth (18 Apr 2005)

Next year my wife and I are looking forward to a posting to Kingston.  What are the PMQ avail and rates?  We have 3 kids.... Thanks


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## kincanucks (18 Apr 2005)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Next year my wife and I are looking forward to a posting to Kingston.   What are the PMQ avail and rates?   We have 3 kids.... Thanks



Try reading the first post of this thread.


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## AirForceWife (19 Apr 2005)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Next year my wife and I are looking forward to a posting to Kingston.   What are the PMQ avail and rates?   We have 3 kids.... Thanks




We just moved from Kingston. I posted our horrid CFHA experience on page 7 (2nd last post).   For a family of 3, your gonna get a 4bdrm (unless if you want 3).  A 4bdrm PMQ is about $800, plus heat and hydro (your looking at about $60-70 for hydro, and $190-$260 for heat)
There are PLENTY of PMQs available in Kingston, as everyone is moving out of them.  When we moved last year, it seemed like a quarter of them where empty.  Oh, no basements either.


----------



## mike (2 May 2005)

hi, are pets (small dogs) permitted in military housing if your family moves into such a thing?
thanks


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## axeman (2 May 2005)

generally speaking yes they are ,but if its an exotic you may have to check with the local regs


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## Swin435 (6 May 2005)

Best thing to do is check with CFHA.  Everybase has it's own rules.  For example; here in Winnipeg it all depends on which PMQ's you are in.


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## thehammer2001 (8 May 2005)

In edmonton what you can have depends on the countys bilaws in Edmontonyou can have up to a max of 3 domestic animals.


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## shadow (12 May 2005)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Next year my wife and I are looking forward to a posting to Kingston.   What are the PMQ avail and rates?   We have 3 kids.... Thanks



If you can scrounge up a downpayment, you will pay less for mortgage, property tax, and utilities if you buy in Kingston than if you were to move into a Q.  I left Kingston 2 years ago and my monthly living bill was $1000 and that included the above PLUS condo fees!!!  In addition, the money put on the principle is still yours!  I know it's sometimes difficult to get the initial downpayment, especially if you have 3 kids and your wife is searching for a new job, but the monthly expenses will be cheaper if you can.

Shadow


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## TheCheez (17 May 2005)

Q's will normally be OK.

Shacks not so much.


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## jewel80002000 (23 May 2005)

Hello Everyone!

We recently got a message that we are being posted to Edmonton Just a few questions on the PMQ situation.

Can anyone tell me what the cost of a 2 bedroom PMQ and also if they are decent,   also i was wondering if there was any place online that would have photos of the PMQ's.

Any help would be greatful.   Thanks so much!


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## Michael OLeary (23 May 2005)

Canadian Forces Housing Agency - Edmonton

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/locations/edmonton_e.asp

Edmonton area homes and rates:

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/locations/edmonton_h_e.asp


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## jewel80002000 (23 May 2005)

Wow,

Thanks Michael for the info on the PMQ situation, that is very expensive.

Does anyone have any suggestions of some nice areas that we should be looking at while we are on our house hunting trip, to buy a house!

We are only looking for something small as we don't have kids. any suggestions for some areas we should be looking would be great.

Thanks once again


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## aesop081 (23 May 2005)

jewel80002000 said:
			
		

> Wow,
> 
> Thanks Michael for the info on the PMQ situation, that is very expensive.
> 
> ...



Try the lago lindo area....castle downs area......St-Albert was getting expensive when i left........fort saskatchewan was looking prety good


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## Gunner (23 May 2005)

The housing market has been pretty good for the last couple of years in Edmonton (as well as the rest of Canada).   See the Edmonton Real Estate Board website:

http://www.ereb.com/

Their most recent news release on market conditions is below:

http://www.ereb.com/marketactivity/April2005.html

I live in St Albert (small city to the north west of Edmonton) and the prices are quite high.   While it is a beautiful community, you may not be able to afford it if you are a first time home buyer.   Property taxes are quite high as well.

If you are a first time homebuyer, I suggest you look at places to the north of the city (Morinville, Gibbons, etc) or to the east/west of the city (Stony Plain/Fort Saskatchewan/Sherwood Park) or in the north end of Edmonton (castedowns, castlebrook, etc).   Canada Lands Corporation is developing the old army base at Greisbach if you are interested in living in a newer area that is closer to downtown Edmonton.

For my 2 cents, I highly encourage soldiers to buy their own home.   While you may not be able to afford the newest 4x4 as those living in PMQs, your money (rent) is going towards something you will own once you retire.   The market has been rising steadily in Edmonton for some time but with interest rates still at their lowest levels in decades, home ownership is still an affordable dream.   Once again, my 2 cents, as everyone has different circumstances.

Good luck.


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## jewel80002000 (24 May 2005)

In the event that we don't find a house..... are the PMQ's in Edmonton in good shape!  Hopefully we won't need to go that route but I just have to keep my options open..

Any info on the PMQ's would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.


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## axeman (24 May 2005)

some are being run totally by civies .. other then that they are pmq's


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## Springroll (21 Jul 2005)

We lived in the PMQ's in Victoria from 1999-2001. That was the worst 2 years I have ever had in a place. 
We got posted to the US for a 3 yr Nato stint and when it was time for us to be posted, we chose Hfx since it is cheaper out here. We bought a house in Cole Harbour and have never been happier. 

You could not pay me enough to make me live in another PMQ. I served on the town council in Belmont Park, and the BS that goes along with it just isn't worth it. You get wives calling you up and complaing because CFHA won't come by and do repairs and such.....

We had a severe carpenter ant problem. Took CFHA 3 months to come out, ripped off the siding and the house stayed like that for a month, then the contractor came back, turned the insultaion over and then put up the new siding....did I add that the isulation looked like an ant farm??

I took pictures and took them into CFHA and said this was unacceptable and that I was going to get my own building inspector and then take it to the papers....good thing we got posted out of there because most of those units would have been condemned due to the rats and other creatures taking up residence in the crawl spaces and walls.


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## McG (23 Jul 2005)

My rent will be chopped almost $50.  After a few years of $100 and $50 increases, Ottawa seems to have realized they've overshot the realistic value of what I'm staying in.  Hopefully this trend continues.  Anyone else get a rent cut?


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## Springroll (23 Jul 2005)

A rent decrease??

CFHS LOVES to jack the rent every September....they especially love to after a pay raise


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## axeman (23 Jul 2005)

im here in Esqimalt and ive  gotten word of a rent drop .. well after them dropping the pld i would hope so . i winder if anyone doing these cost of living inquiries actully looked and saw the the AVERAGE priced house was over 250K here...


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## luck881 (24 Jul 2005)

After putting up with all the crap in Kingston, I can honestly say that Petawawa is a paradise!  
I started in a 2 Bdrm row in Kingston in 98 paying 450 plus... not too bad.  When my daughter was on the way in spring 01 we moved into a 3 bdrm duplex.  Because I requested the move, I lost my grandfather clause and had to pay 650 plus... fair enough.  Within days of my move a former neighbor from my old row told me that they had been notified that the row had been condemned and all the tenants were being moved at public expense ,just like a posting with all the associated benefits and their rent was still grandfathered... no wonder they were so receptive to my request to move MYSELF!!!!  By the time I was posted in fall '04, the rent was up to 750 plus, could have been worse but they can only increase by such a percentage per year.
Then in september I came to Pet.  I accepted a 3 bdrm row sight-unseen by fax for guess what... 450 plus, right back where I started, cool.  But after arriving and checking it out, the place turned out to be a dump in a crowded corner, no offence meant to any readers that may live on Regalbuto.  When I asked if I could see some others the clerk at housing said "sure, have at 'er".  I ended up taking a 3 bdrm single on Paardeberg for 522 plus.  The neighbors are all great, the yard is huge and backs on to the woods and beyond that the rapids on the petawawa river, and in several days the old french school across the street will be torn down, so I'm pretty happy with the location.  
Anyway, I received my notice of adjustment last week... my rent is staying the same, but my utility cost is going up about a dollar or so.  So, at 523 plus, all I can say is; 
"Come to 2 Bde"!


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## ab136 (1 Aug 2005)

Here's my situation.
I am presently and patiently waiting an offer.  I have been QL3 qualified, so I will be going in as semi-skilled.  My wife will be finishing university in two years.  I understand that my training could possible take up to a year to complete???? So my questions are regarding my options for housing.  Since I will be living away from my wife and she will be residing in our present home for at least 2 more years, will I be required to pay for room and board.  Seems like I already know the answer but I thought I read somewhere that while living apart you should not have to pay for both residence.  This is not coming out the way I wanted it too but maybe someone "might" understand what I am trying to get at.


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## Gunner98 (1 Aug 2005)

Imposed Restriction and Separation Expenses, see msg at: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/download_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7&docid=6 or in html format at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dgcb/dcba/engraph/high_rate_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7

In brief: 
MBRS APPROVED FOR IMPOSED RESTRICTION (IR) ARE AUTH TO RECEIVE FREE R AND Q PROVIDED THEY ARE STILL MAINTAINING A PRINCIPAL RESIDENCE AT THE FORMER PLACE OF DUTY. CFAO 209-3 PARA 2 STIPULATES THAT QUOTE: A MEMBER ENTITLED TO SEPARATION EXPENSE (SE) SHALL UTILIZE RATIONS AND QUARTERS (R AND Q) IF AVAILABLE UNQUOTE.

Normally R&Q are provided free of charge.  When quarters are not avail you may be subsidized to live off-Base in commercial or non-commercial accommodation.

The Navy has a different term and policy, called "Member-only posting."


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## ab136 (1 Aug 2005)

Thanks Gunner98.  I have read the link you posted.  Is there a time or accumulated expense that will limit this type of accommodation? As I have posted...it may be as long a two years.  Is it possible to live in PMQ or "shacks" in this situation.


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## honestyrules (1 Aug 2005)

I just got my rent increase notice last friday... 50$ increase for a row house in Gagetown, starting in November. 35$ increase for a "A" frame individual unit.


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## Gunner98 (1 Aug 2005)

Up to 3 years normally, it used to require annual review.


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## ab136 (1 Aug 2005)

Thanks again Gunner98


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## Gunner98 (1 Aug 2005)

Current entitlements for solo move and then when you move your family are found at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/download_e.asp?docid=103&sidesection=2&sidecat=99

Separation Expense info is at:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&Section=209.997&sidecat=26&Chapter=209#209.997

Some important info about terminating Imposed Restriction is at: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/irpp/engraph/download_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=9&docid=12


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## ab136 (1 Aug 2005)

Thanks once again Gunner98. Those links are just what I needed. Yours a wealth.


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Aug 2005)

up $1.00 for hydro


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## BOSNwife (1 Aug 2005)

Our PMQ went up $ 66.04 per month. This has been the largest increase to us since we moved in here in 1998. No work/renovations have been done here since 2002.


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## Springroll (2 Aug 2005)

BOSNwife said:
			
		

> Our PMQ went up $ 66.04 per month. This has been the largest increase to us since we moved in here in 1998. No work/renovations have been done here since 2002.



The largest increases we had was every year from '98-01, $100 more every September....pay raise or no pay raise.
The only improvment they did was chop down my maple tree( I freaked on them for that) and flipping the insulation over(rather than replacing it)


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## ChopperHead (2 Aug 2005)

Im just alittle confused here. So are the row houses on the base or off? and 4 bedrooms seems fairly large if it's on base so do you have others living there as well, Like other soldiers I mean 




Kyle.


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## beach_bum (2 Aug 2005)

Got the letter.  My PMQ rent goes up 1 Nov by another $100.  There goes the pay raise!   :'(


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Aug 2005)

whoa that sucks

What pay raise?  This past on we got in Apr?


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## beach_bum (2 Aug 2005)

That's the one!  It seems that our rent (at least here in Van - can't speak for anywhere else) gets adjusted every Nov.  My little Q is now $940.00 a month!  Argh!


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## McG (2 Aug 2005)

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> Im just alittle confused here. So are the row houses on the base or off? and 4 bedrooms seems fairly large if it's on base so do you have others living there as well, Like other soldiers I mean


PMQ = married quarters.  4 bedrooms is not so big if you have two or three kids & a dog.


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## Slim (4 Aug 2005)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> That's the one!   It seems that our rent (at least here in Van - can't speak for anywhere else) gets adjusted every Nov.   My little Q is now $940.00 a month!   Argh!



Holy crap Carol

That's almost my mortgage!


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## Springroll (4 Aug 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Holy crap Carol
> 
> That's almost my mortgage!



Same here...our mortgage is 984/mth.....glad I no longer live in the Q's...


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## Shadow Cat (4 Aug 2005)

Keep in mind that where he is living the housing is through the roof and you would probably not be able to get the same house that you have right now with your mortage payment that you have now there.  

It is unforunate that it is so high.  What do they expect new recruits to live off of.  Especially if they have families.


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## Springroll (4 Aug 2005)

When we were first living in the Q's in '99 we were only paying $411 for a 3 bdrm duplex on a good size lot..and that was in Victoria


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## Shadow Cat (4 Aug 2005)

Yeah they do that fair market value for the price of rent now.  When my husband was thinking of going Navy we decided against it becuase of the possisbility of ending up in BC.  We want to be able to purchase a home and we just wouldn't be able to afford to purchase a home there, or should I say a decent home.


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Aug 2005)

Shadow Cat I think you mean where SHE is living.


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## sigtech (16 Aug 2005)

Depending where you are PMQ's are not worth it, my morgage is only $150 more then my PMQ rent was and I am sure I will save that in heating costs. Ontop of that no mildew and mold spores coming from a crawl space.
The PMQ's in Kingston are in horable shape and have no insilation in them at all. So with mildew and mold no basement i was paying 810 a mounth not including heating costs so in Kingston the PMQ's are not worth it.


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## tourwife (26 Aug 2005)

FX said:
			
		

> Ok thanks for all the info guys, if anybody has anything to add to it, please do. Thanks again!



For comparison for ya.  I'm living in Griesbach, the old military base in Edmonton.  I'm living in a 3 bdrm attached house, (2 bdrm, if ya want a dining room), small kitchen, but nice yard for $700.00/mth, (this is the current discounted military rate since being sold) plus my utilities which add up to $225.00,mth.  My friend who actually lives on base, has a *4* bedroom attached house, living room is almost twice my size, and she's got a seperate dining room, and a bigger kitchen, and she will be paying the same price as me come November.  Her yard is smaller, but that's the only crappy difference.  Her insurance has also gone down, because she is no longer within city limits.  Just a thought


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## caper861 (13 Sep 2005)

Today I sat here and read everyone of the statements that have been wrote.  I have to say that in my personal experience I have only seen one or two PM Q's that were worth living in.  I lived in Borden, On for 3 years and our PMQ was ok except for the front window which everytime you cleaned it it would move out of its holding.  When we first moved there our total rent and utilities was $385.00 with a heat cost of $200-300 in the winter and lights $150-200 a month.  By the time we left our rent was $850.00 with utilities and our heat and lights stayed the same.  It took us another year to pay off our bills.  I do have to say that CFHA there were always good to us in regards to repairs.  Then my family moved to our present posting, Wainwright, our rent and utilities are about $500.00 a month with heat included.  The costs of food and basic necessary goods are double the price in Edmonton or Lloydminster and we receive no PLD.  Our lights are at a good cost and I know I will never live in another Q this size again.  The problem I have is that CFHA here does not give a shi* about us living in these homes.  I moved in and had to get someone to come and hook up all of our water pipes including the toilet, which was not even bolted down, and this took them 3 months.  I have paint coming off the walls in strips and the worst is in my 3 year old's room.  At first I thought he was picking off the paint until I noticed the roof, and he can't get there.  When I called to have someone come fix this, it took 2 months and the problem is still not solved.  To top it all off I was told that we will be held responsible for this damage when we leave.  Then for 8 months we lived in our Q with 6 types of toxic mold and 2 non-harmful types. When I asked to get a new Q I was told to move into town or wait till the work was done.  I am not even going to get into the amount of health problems my family has had since we moved here since that is another topic altogether.  I have leaking pipes, toxic mold, human shi* in the walls, windows leading and falling out, paint peeling off the walls and a few other problems.  I live in Q's since my family is on the other side of the country and I have physical disabilities as well as 1.5 children.  I like the idea of being close to a military family whether my husband is here or away as well as the idea that if something does go wrong with our home I have no worries.  Yes, to live in Q's is my choice.  I also understand that these places are old and there will be problems but all I want is for CFHA to come and fix them and to charge reasonbile rents around the country.  I am retired from the military due to an accident but it is nice for my husband to be able to walk to work, have people living around me who know my lifestyle and a family away from family.  Sorry for the rant but at the sametime thank's for army.ca to letting me.


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

Some answers to what CFHA offers in the way of DND Housing can be located at their site:

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/info/index_e.asp

Specific Base Locations can be searched here:

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/info/housingloc_e.asp


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## Sergeant295 (23 Sep 2005)

Hey all,

I was just curious about what kind of base housing is available up there in the Canadian Army? Meaning both for the single soldier and for one with a family. Do single members have their own units, or are they put into barracks? For those with a family how is the condition of the housing? How large are the units?

What kind of deductions do you see from your pay in exchange for the housing? Generally how do you find the quality of life for the families of Canadian Forces Members?

Just curious.  Thanks to all who respond.


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## axeman (23 Sep 2005)

single personel are housed in barracks usually 1 or more to a room untill you pass your trades training then you may move off base into rental houseing  or own your own .. if your married / have kids an exception may be made and you may  "may" be allowed to get a pmq [permanent married  quarter]   prices vary as to which base your on ...


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## Greywolf (23 Sep 2005)

It's slightly different on each base.  Single people can get their own rooms and share the bathroom with 3 others or more.  Room size varies too depending on the building.  Generally it's just a room with a bed, a desk, some closet space.  But then of course a sergeant will have a bigger room, nicer furniture, larger bed...than a private.  The deductions depend on your rank and basically on your salary because the higher your rank is, the higher your salary, the more you get deducted for quarters.


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## AmmoTech90 (24 Sep 2005)

Greywolf said:
			
		

> The deductions depend on your rank and basically on your salary because the higher your rank is, the higher your salary, the more you get deducted for quarters.



That is not completely correct.  See this link for costs: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/sq_table_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7
It varies on the facilities provided and the condition of the barracks.  Privates will get a 50% deduction, everyone else pays full.   In Wainwright the JRs actually had the best rooms when I was posted there.  Once you had been in shacks for a year living in a D5 (Single room, washbasin, shared bathroom) you could upgrade to a G5 (Single room, sitting room, private bathroom).  According to the chart these are for Maj/Col, but there were so few guys in shacks they merged rooms.  Unfortunately these are now gone apparently.

In Gagetown there are PMQs that have been converted to ESQ (Enhanced Single Quarters) that are shared between two to four guys.  Its a row house and the rent is shared.  There is very little commonality between bases as far as SQs go, they vary from adequate to excellent.  Possibly the worst I have seen is also in Gagetown.  Dingy run down corridors, dirty walls, bare rooms with old steel frame beds and two or four people to a room (think they are trying to keep it to two now).  And this is for troops posted there, not on course.


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## zein (24 Sep 2005)

axeman said:
			
		

> single personel are housed in barracks usually 1 or more to a room untill you pass your trades training then you may move off base into rental houseing   or own your own .. if your married / have kids an exception may be made and you may   "may" be allowed to get a pmq [permanent married   quarter]     prices vary as to which base your on ...




Hi,

I will start my training in Quebec-St Jean in January 2006. I'm married and expecting a baby in February. Do you think I can apply for a married housing in St Jean or I have to wait until I pass my course. I will take a BOTC course. If I can't take a Base Housing is ther any other resources that may assist me in finding a place in the St Jean area. The reason Im asking is that after finishing my BOTC I have to take a French language for 8 months and it will be hard for me to stay away from my family especially with a new born baby.
I do appreciate any feed back on this . THANKS.


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## reccecrewman (24 Sep 2005)

Personally, I've never heard of someone on their Basic being allowed to bring their family along and put them up in a Q.  I could be wrong, but I have never heard of it.  You're only there for such a short time before being sent to another Base, it's pretty impractical (and costly) for the CF to pay out alot of coin to move your family there. Just wait out buds, one of the forum elders will be along shortly and can give you a concrete answer on this.


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## reccecrewman (24 Sep 2005)

Oh ya, the baby thing you mentioned................... Well, I hate to break it to you, but that really wouldn't have an impact on being allowed to bring your family along.  Your best bet is to make sure she stays near (or with) some close family members so she won't be alone during the last weeks of pregnancy.  I have seen many instances, particularly on my Battle School 4 years ago. One of the guys on my course had his wife back in Ontario (we were in Wainwright) and she gave birth around week 8 of our course.  The course WO gathered the guys on a parade, and announced that Tpr.___________ was the father of a baby (cant remember boy or girl) gave the length & weight and dismissed us.  So, be prepared for that to happen to you. It does suck, but it's part of the CF.


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## Island Ryhno (24 Sep 2005)

I believe you may request to move your family once you are in SLT, it will most likely not happen in basic. My brother couldn't get his family moved to St.Jean for SLT, it's not technically considered a posting. You need a special request to make it happen. Unreasonable circumstances (lenght or time away from family is unreasonable for example) can make it happen, I hear. I'm sure that there are SME's on here though.


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## George Wallace (24 Sep 2005)

Now, think of how expensive it be will for the Government to move your family down to St Jean or Borden while you do your Basic?  How expensive will it be for you to move them back, at your own expense, if you quite or fail Basic after a week or two?  Now do any of the answers given make any sense?


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## axeman (24 Sep 2005)

i trhink personel may have misunderstood what i said . what i ment to stat is once you are done st jean and have moved on you may be allowed to get a q , this is done in very rare cases ie single parent families or if a member of the family has special needs ie medical. these are generally brought up to the school commander or his senior.. ive  just remustered and after 10 yrs with the Patricia's i still wasnt allowed to have my family move with my while i was doing my newest batch of 3's .... dont forget once you finish your 3's theres generally another move ahead of you and in the military to your first posting ...


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## honestyrules (24 Sep 2005)

When I did my 3's (6 months) I've been allowed to move my family and get a Q. 6 months is the minimum to move your next of kin-kids. After the course, I got posted to the same base ,so I stayed at the same spot.


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## soon_to_be_army_05 (24 Sep 2005)

By the way..there are no q's in st-jean,they r in St-Hubert.


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## CdnArtyWife (25 Sep 2005)

verygood said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I will start my training in Quebec-St Jean in January 2006. I'm married and expecting a baby in February. Do you think I can apply for a married housing in St Jean or I have to wait until I pass my course. I will take a BOTC course. If I can't take a Base Housing is ther any other resources that may assist me in finding a place in the St Jean area. The reason Im asking is that after finishing my BOTC I have to take a French language for 8 months and it will be hard for me to stay away from my family especially with a new born baby.
> I do appreciate any feed back on this . THANKS.



 I was in the same boat as your wife...had baby while hubby on BOTC...

You could do like my hubby did, once he started SLT (cuz there was NO TIME during BOTC) he started combing the streets in search of an apt. He started his SLT in Jan 02, I packed baby, two cats and all the baby gear I could fit into my Dodge Shadow and moved there in Feb 02 (all our other stuff went into storage at our own cost) We slept on an air mattress down the hall from the local drug dealer (apts near Cdn Tire) as hubby just settled for anything to act as a shelter for the three of us. It was an adventure, but it was fun. 

You could pop into the MFRC building on the base (behind the Mega) and ask for info for apt rentals and such, they may be able to help. But you likely won't have time until you are completed BOTC.

As for married quarters...there are none in St-Jean, the nearest ones are in St-Hubert (about 15-20 minutes away). Keep in mind that if you decide to move your family to be with you during your SLT it will be out of your pocket as you will not qualify for a paid move until you are Trade Qualified.

Trust me, it is not worth it to move your family before you start SLT as you will have to stay at the Mega during BOTC and you wouldn't have time to see them during BOTC anyway. Between preparing for inspections, cleaning weapons, doing laundry etc, and getting confined to base for one reason or another you won't see your family....BOTC is too busy.


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## CdnArtyWife (26 Sep 2005)

delavan said:
			
		

> When I did my 3's (6 months) I've been allowed to move my family and get a Q. 6 months is the minimum to move your next of kin-kids. After the course, I got posted to the same base ,so I stayed at the same spot.



SLT may be an (up to) 8 month course, but it is not considered a post, therefore does not qualify for the move at public expense.


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## zein (26 Sep 2005)

Hello all,

Many thanks for your feedback. In fact I just found a place in Montreal  and it's far from St Jean by almost 50KM . Hopefully this will give me an access to get in touch with my family. I understand BOTC requires   spending a lot of time  studying/preparing  for the course (to succeed).So  if I moved to the Montreal region do  they still waiving the quarter renting fee?


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## Zoomie (26 Sep 2005)

If you secure accomodations in Montreal you will only be going there on weekends while on SLT.  The School Commandant has final say if you wish to live off base while attending second language training.  He/she may allow this if you decide to rent in town - I highly doubt that he will allow you to live in Montreal (it is quite some distance away).  Take CdnArtyWife's advice and get a rental unit in St-Jean - some come partially furnished and are right beside the Mega.  Do not take any furniture or anything that cannot fit in your own personal vehicle.


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## zein (26 Sep 2005)

Zoomie,

SO you advise me to take a base residence during SLT? If so do I have to apply in advance i.e. once Im taking the BOTC or right after finishing the course.And may I ask how would I apply for such a residence? Also does the SLT starts right after the BOTC or there's a waiting period.THANKS..


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## CdnArtyWife (27 Sep 2005)

As your BOTP is winding down, you can pop into the accomodations office in the mega and arrange for a new room. You will likely be going with a bunch of guys from your course...you guys can ask to be put in the same pod if you are all buddies....You will likely be in the blue sector (if I remember correctly) during SLT. 

I advise you to get the room. If you decide later to move your family up, you can probably keep the room you are assigned and then it can act as a home base for after class/before PT or when you are just too inebriated from TGIT with the boys to make it home. My hubby kept his room, which proved usefull for the times when I would pop into the mega to do laundry and take advantage of the gym myself...hubby would hang in his pod with the baby while I worked out and vise versa.

There are some apartments in town with Fridge and Stove incl. that is what we got...we were not in the best part of town, but we were lucky enough to have a very understanding Super who was bilingual and allowed us to sign a six month lease. Since I moved up to SJ two months into SLT, this was ideal. Like I said, it was an adventure...but I have grown so much for it.

I know of others that signed a six month lease as well....when you apartment hunt, mention your situation to the Superintendant/Landlord....they may be able to accomodate you.....because most leases in Quebec start July 1 so if a place is vacant, they would rather have someone in it for a short time than have it empty for a long time.

Good luck.


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## zein (27 Sep 2005)

Hi,

Many thanks for your feedback. In fact I got a place in Mount Royal, in suburban Montreal and Im still negotiating with the land lord the possibility to take the lease for 6 months. I hope he will agree and later during the SLT I may be lucky to find my own accomodation.


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## missNickers (27 Sep 2005)

A little off topic, but you mentioned single and family housing.  If we apply for common law after my mans done his training, will we be able to have our own place while he's doing SQ???  Or will he half to live on base??? Thanx, niki


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## axeman (27 Sep 2005)

common law by the CF definition as opposed to the civilian definition is 1 yr  vs 6 months


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## beach_bum (27 Sep 2005)

missNickers said:
			
		

> A little off topic, but you mentioned single and family housing.   If we apply for common law after my mans done his training, will we be able to have our own place while he's doing SQ???   Or will he half to live on base??? Thanx, niki



How can you apply for common law after he is done his training?  They will not count the time he is gone as part of that year.   If you haven't lived together for a year prior to his enrolment, you are not common law as far as the military is concerned.


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## D-n-A (28 Sep 2005)

missNickers said:
			
		

> A little off topic, but you mentioned single and family housing.   If we apply for common law after my mans done his training, will we be able to have our own place while he's doing SQ???   Or will he half to live on base??? Thanx, niki



When's on course, he's going to be living in the shacks with all the other people on the course. I don't think your be able to get a PMC untill he's trained and at whatever unit he's going to.


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## GrahamD (28 Sep 2005)

Actually the guy we talked to at the recruiting center told us that technically he still resides here with me, and that it would count for part of the year to get common law status..


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## CdnArtyWife (28 Sep 2005)

GrahamD said:
			
		

> Actually the guy we talked to at the recruiting center told us that technically he still resides here with me, and that it would count for part of the year to get common law status..



I believe that to be true, as long as both your names are on the lease...that would be the document to prove co-habitation.


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## Sergeant295 (28 Sep 2005)

So are the married quarters only accessable to married and common law partners?  What is the procedure for long time girlfriends and boyfriends?


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## George Wallace (28 Sep 2005)

Depending on availability, some Bases allow single personnel to move into PMQs.  Not all have this policy.  Usually young single soldiers will find apartments or houses off Base.  Senior NCOs and Officers are luckier, as singles they are more likely to be permitted to move into PMQs, in many cases they are divorced.  Single parents are also given preferential treatment.


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## Sergeant295 (29 Sep 2005)

So what kind of availability do you see in say a base like Petawawa? What kind of wait does a soldier there contend with?


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## George Wallace (29 Sep 2005)

Sergeant295 said:
			
		

> So what kind of availability do you see in say a base like Petawawa? What kind of wait does a soldier there contend with?


I had single Troopers in my Troop getting into PMQs in Pet.   The wait wasn't too long.   Pet has quite a variety of Quarters, all in different price ranges for Rent.   In the "Home Front" Threads there are a lot dealing with housing.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?board=49.0


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## Celer et Fortis (29 Sep 2005)

Don't get me started!

Although I love where my PMQ is, the neighbourhood, the safety, heck, even the layout, I can't STAND dealing with CFHA. I just went two weeks without heat because no one could be bothered to help out a silly little military wife. Funny, but as soon as my husband's sergeant got involved, miraculously the part that was apparently on order for two weeks miraculously appeared, and the problem was fixed in less than 24 hours.

Huh. Once again, I suppose it comes down to who you know, eh?


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## NavyGirl280 (29 Sep 2005)

I currently live in a PMQ. Our rent is currently $698 and going up to $725 before too long. We have a large 3 bedroom single home that had an addition added to it last summer. Currently they are renovating 3 in my area to become like mine. I have been in some of the older ones and most need to be redone. I have been in some duplex's are I don't consider fit to live in. You have to question what is being done (or lack of when they build these places) that when someone vacates a home, a truck with the words "Mold Removal" comes barrelling down the road at 8 am. We have been in here for 3 months now and we are still waiting for them to come finish laying our sod from the previous tenants who lived here. My deck would be considered "unsafe" by most as the cement pillar that holds it up was hit with an excavator when they were building the addition on and therefore the pillar is unlevel. My ceiling needs to be repaired after my upstairs bathroom flooded and the ceiling became ruined from the water that escaped into the floor Joice's. All in all, I am glad I only rent this place as I wouldn't want to be the one forking over the money to have all this repaired. As long as I'm not paying for it, I don't mind hounding them 24-7 until something is done about it. I do agree ... a mortgage is much cheaper in the long run but we don't want to buy a home, only for 6 months down the road for them to tell us we're being posted someplace else. Someday we'll buy a home and someday we'll be glad that this was a live and learn experience as is anything with the life of the military

S.Bradbury


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## George Wallace (29 Sep 2005)

NavyGirl280 said:
			
		

> ...... I do agree ... a mortgage is much cheaper in the long run but we don't want to buy a home, only for 6 months down the road for them to tell us we're being posted someplace else. Someday we'll buy a home and someday we'll be glad that this was a live and learn experience as is anything with the life of the military



I think you should reconsider those statements.   The best advice I got when I joined was to buy a house on every posting I got and in the end I would own a house.   If you put it off now, and next time, and the time after that; then you will find yourselves at the end of your military career looking for a home and have no money in the Bank to buy it.   

DND will cover your legal and moving fees.   Take advantage of that.   I have lived in PMQs in Gagetown and was forced to buy in Kingston due to the two year waiting list for a PMQ.   When I was posted to Petawawa, I again bought a house five minutes from work and when I retired fourteen years later I paid off my mortgage and own my new house in Ottawa outright.   

Price houses.   There is no way you will save that $200,000 plus to buy a house after the military by using a Savings/Chequing account.   You will have to bite the bullet and get a mortgage now and in fifteen to twenty years it will be paid off and you will be much better off financially.


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## NCRCrow (29 Sep 2005)

George you are so absolutely right.

I regret not porting my mortgage after being posted to Ottawa and wasting three years in 1200 a month PMQ. 

Luckily back in HFX and paying into a mortagage again.

It's odd that CANEX will give u 5000 dollars interest free for TV/furniture but the military won't do the same for a down payment.


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## Springroll (29 Sep 2005)

I think alot of it depends on each individuals situation. With NavyGirl280, I know her and her new hubby personally and I know their situation and I agree with her that now is not the best time for them, especially with just getting married a couple weeks ago, but I would suggest they buy a home in the next year or two while they are still affordable out here. In the last year alone our house has increased in value by $15k!!

We were only able to buy because being posted to the USA prevented us that luxury, so the CF paid all our closing costs to the tune of $9000+. We also worked with a mortgage broker that specialized with the CF, so she knew how to work things out best for us. In the end we bought a house in a great neighbourhood and only had to put $1800 down. The mortgage we got had a $3000 cash back allowance so we tacked that onto our down payment. Being a first time homeowner was a big bonus too.


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## NavyGirl280 (30 Sep 2005)

I guess I should have been more clear in my posting ... I do apologize

As Springroll mentioned, I recently got married and were just trying to get our lives on the "right" track before heading into any "big" commitements. They only reason we are withholding from buying a home right now is because my husband is finishing up on his 5s course and then he has that chance he may be posted. Thats only in a months time. It would take that long just to find a home here and do the legal portion of it all. If after his course, we find out hes not being posted, we will be considering looking into a new home. Mortgage is the only way to go anymore. They jack the prices up so much on places you rent every year (usually apartments) and then in the long run you have nothing to show for it. 

Once again I do apologize for not adding that to my last post   :

S.Bradbury


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## NavyGirl280 (30 Sep 2005)

LoL

I am reply to my OWN message

Marriage was/is a big commitement....I guess its too early to think and that came out without doing so......

Oops

Take care 'til next time

S.Bradbury


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## Diver Rob (30 Sep 2005)

Out of curiosity .. Have any of you seen the article in regards to asbestos in PMQs?

The article is written by Kathy Tomlinson of  CTV News and the title is "Alarms raised over asbestos in military homes"


Here is a link to the article in question:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050923/whistleblower_asbestos_050929/20050929?hub=TopStories

This was also being Questioned in Parliament this AM during question period.

These Q's have been paid off for over 50 years in most parts and with very little re-investment back into maintenance and improvements.


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## George Wallace (30 Sep 2005)

It has already been posted in another forum....


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## Sergeant295 (1 Oct 2005)

Thanks


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## Redsled (3 Oct 2005)

If your a Sgt ? Or your in the cadets ?
You would know this bye now.  
The best thing to do is stay clear of the PMQ ghetto if possible. Save your money & buy a house. Your family will enjoy it more knowing that the house is yours. & You controll the monthly payments not some egg head in Ottawa.
This may seem harsh but this is the best thing you can do. Even if you have to get a PMQ for now, I would start saving for a house it's a nice thing to have at your disposal but you can become dependant on it & get sucked into that rut like so many others. 
Build something while you are serving it will be a great investment for later.
If you have to live in the shacks that's a great place to save your down payment. 

(Go ahead flame away)


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## George Wallace (3 Oct 2005)

Redsled said:
			
		

> If your a Sgt ? Or your in the cadets ?
> You would know this bye now.



Did you read any of this thread?   Did you check out who you are refering to?   No! You didn't did you?   This guy is a SSG in the US Army who has dual citizenship.   Perhaps you ought to read (and engage brain) before responding.....at least have your morning coffee first.... ;D


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## NavyGirl280 (3 Oct 2005)

My husband and myself applied for housing back the end of last year ... around the end of October I believe it was. We were turned down for a couple reasons. We were common law but only as according to the province of NS (being 6 months) as well we didnt have our common-law status. One fell back on the other. So we had to wait our full year and then applied through the province to get our common law status. I dont think we needed it but it was good for CYA. We reapplied and moved into our PMQ July 1st. Where we are, I am 100% positive they keep the homes for the married and single parents. There are a few single parents I know in my area and the rest all have atleast one child. Myself, I have 2 children so that wasnt the hold up for getting in. I probably told you everything every one else has but just wanted to let you know

S.Bradbury


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## Armymedic (4 Nov 2005)

Article about empty PMQ's in Oakville.... ???

Perhaps CFHA can sell these and free up more monies for areas like Petawawa which has hundreds of PMQ awaiting repair.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1131058200821

Nov. 4, 2005. 01:00 AM 

Knocking on the army's door


CAROL GOAR

In the heart of old Oakville, a couple of blocks from the lakeshore, sits a cluster of 49 empty houses. They're well maintained. The grass is cut regularly. Some are bungalows, some have two storeys.

They'd be perfect for seniors, new immigrants or low-income families.

But they're off limits to members of the community. They belong to the Department of National Defence. And according to military rules, they must be maintained for Canadian Forces personnel.

Every time Marilyn Luxton drives past the site, her frustration spills out.

She'd love one of the modest houses herself. She is a senior struggling to keep her foothold in one of the country's most expensive housing markets.

But more than that, she'd like to see others in need move in. It boggles her mind that, in a community where seniors wait three to five years for affordable housing, a collection of habitable dwellings â â€ paid for by the Canadian people â â€ should remain vacant.

"Why aren't needy people in there? How can the army get away with this?"

Peter Holland, who manages Canadian Forces housing for the Toronto region, says he's just following orders.

There is a strict protocol for determining who gets military housing, he says. Members of the armed forces with families have first priority. Single military personnel come second. Civilian employees of the defence department rank third. And if space is still available, federal civil servants can apply.

"We have no mandate to house people in the local community," Holland says.

This kind of blind adherence to outdated rules infuriates Luxton. It's been years since the army has had any significant presence in Oakville and no one expects the military to move back into the region.

Luxton has called her Member of Parliament, Bonnie Brown, several times. She's spoken to her Member of the Provincial Legislature, Kevin Flynn. She's raised the issue with Oakville Mayor Ann Mulvale.

She's pestered her local councillor, Ralph Robinson, so often she's afraid he'll stop taking her calls. None of them has been able to budge the defence department.

A less tenacious individual than Luxton would quit. She probably should; she's had two strokes.

But she's the kind of citizen who can't stop trying to fix what's broken, change what's wrong and challenge edicts that defy logic and moral sense.

The defence department's military housing policy qualifies on all counts: It is wasteful, irrational and inhumane.

The issue Luxton is raising extends well beyond Oakville. Many communities have vacant military houses. (Toronto has 50 or so unoccupied units at the former Downsview base.)

Until the defence department declares them surplus, no one else can use them.

Disposing of military assets is always a delicate matter. It pits government agencies against one another, produces a clash of interests between private developers and social activists and generates fierce local controversy.

The expectation in Oakville is that the enclave once known as "army block" â â€ situated on a prime piece of land at the junction of Rebecca St. and Dorval Dr. â â€ will eventually be sold, the houses will be knocked down and a high-priced condominium will be erected.

Luxton would hate to see that happen. She believes the site should stay in public hands, the houses should be handed over to the Salvation Army and an affordable apartment complex should be built on the large, unused field in the middle of the lot.

As a former real estate agent, she understands the power of market forces. But as a citizen, she sides with the "people who haven't got tons of money."

At the moment, though, Luxton's battle is to get the locks off the doors of the 49 empty houses. 

She can't see who benefits from having them sit there, clean and heated, while the defence department decides what to do with them. She can't fathom why an antiquated policy directive should keep needy people out of publicly financed housing. And she can't comprehend why none of the politicians she elected is capable of changing â â€ or at least finding a way to suspend â â€ rules that make no sense and erode people's faith in government.

"I'm a nobody," Luxton says. "I have no voice. But I have to speak out about this."

Every community needs nobodies like her.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carol Goar's column appears Monday, Wednesday and Friday.


----------



## Dirt Digger (5 Nov 2005)

Anyone aware of how many of the Oakville PMQs are occupied?

I was considering moving there but picked William Baker instead.  Since my wife found a used hypodermic needle in the ditch while raking leaves, I'm wondering if the commute isn't so bad afterall.


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## North (5 Nov 2005)

OK,  I am sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone who likes living in PMQs, but

Are YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???????????????????????????????????????

I lived for two years in the North Side PMQ slums in Pet. It was gross. It's cheaper to buy. Hello!??? You don't have to be ghetto!!!! What is up people? General Lake PS and General Panet HS are where you send your kids if you just don't care. Check the provincial standards.  


GET out of the Qs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(ok, I do mean to offed. Get your butt out of the Qs!)


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## North (5 Nov 2005)

Just say no to PMQs.<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/haytaps/aolsmolies/panic2.gif"> Get out!


----------



## Armymedic (5 Nov 2005)

North said:
			
		

> OK,   I am sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone who likes living in PMQs, but
> 
> Are YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???????????????????????????????????????
> 
> ...



Not that easy for everyone.... 
Housing prices are becoming insane (esp around Pet...$200 000, like come on...) and unless both you and your spouse are in, or they have a good job...its hard not to be house poor.
But I agree with you, get out of the PMQ's as soon as possible. If you are being posted, buy...do not go into Q's.

BTW whats wrong with French immersion at Gen Lake?...not like there is much choice elsewhere in Petawawa. It is Herman Street School that was in the bottom 10%


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## George Wallace (5 Nov 2005)

ArmyMedic

I am sure that housing prices in Oakville are even higher than Pet.  (Having just sold in Pet, I am dishearted to hear the latest prices.)

Back to the topic.

I was under the understanding that the PMQs in Oakville were dedicated to housing the Staff and Students of the Staff Schools and Staff Colleges located in the Metro area.  I am sure that there are times when there may a large number of vacancies and times when they will be fully occupied, depending on what Crses are in House.  In my opinion, someone was having a "Slow Press Day" and as usual any anti-military subject makes a good filler in the TO area.


----------



## geo (5 Nov 2005)

any bets that some real estate developer would love to get his hands on the oakville property to redevelop or Flip the property?

Given the location... would make a bloody fortune

I know that @ Ft St-Jean on the old CMR campus there are a whole bunch of CF PMQs that are periodicaly vacant.... but as the Campus is being converted to the leadership school - there will be the pitter patter of little feet in the Qs sometime soon... thank god they didn't sell off the campus when they closed down CMR.


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## AoD71 (5 Nov 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> any bets that some real estate developer would love to get his hands on the oakville property to redevelop or Flip the property?
> 
> Given the location... would make a bloody fortune



Definately. I know this may sound greedy but I think I have a point. The area should be sold at a gorgeous price to some people who want to build a condo or a rich neighbourhood or whatnot. With the money DND can fix the Q's in Petawawa and fund other areas that are in need. I DON'T think they should be turned into a a neighbourhood for "low-income familes" and things like that. What do you get when you pile a bunch of poor people into one spot? You get violence and you get crime - just another problem. And I'm sure this is one reason they haven't been sold off already.


----------



## Dirt Digger (5 Nov 2005)

North said:
			
		

> OK,   I am sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone who likes living in PMQs, but
> 
> Are YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???????????????????????????????????????
> 
> ...



First off, I am not in Toronto on a 4 year post.
Second of all, I have no kids and don't need to worry about schools.
Third, I grew up in PMQs and know exactly what they're like.
Fourth, Toronto is not Pet.  The housing market isn't even remotely similar.

There are reasons why people choose PMQs; some of which seem to escape your thought process.


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## AoD71 (5 Nov 2005)

From what I read so far... Petawawa's Q's are really horrible. SO horrible that they are used as the "bad example"? Wow, I was actually hoping I could get posted there. Now I'm going to have to pull an unholy amount of cash out of my @ss to buy a place somewere.  :'(


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## Old Ranger (5 Nov 2005)

Your Home is What you Make IT!


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## armyvern (5 Nov 2005)

AoD71 said:
			
		

> From what I read so far... Petawawa's Q's are really horrible. SO horrible that they are used as the "bad example"? Wow, I was actually hoping I could get posted there. Now I'm going to have to pull an unholy amount of cash out of my @ss to buy a place somewere.   :'(


Well, I've lived in Qs in Pet for awhile and visited Qs in Trenton....and Trenton's were really horrendous, and if I had to I'd take one from Pet over the ones in Trenton anyday. At least in Pet they were starting to renovate them with insulation, siding and new windows.


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## garb811 (5 Nov 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> thank god they didn't sell off the campus when they closed down CMR.



Err...we didn't sell it but we did lease it out for $1/year for 25 years starting in Aug 00.   We're now renting the current space we use back at $45 mil over 5 years, starting in '01, with services provided. Once we up the occupancy rate and become committed to being there, I'm sure the Corporation will seek to make the most of the financial opportunity during the negotiations for the next 5 years.

Really good news is the Corporation that controls the place rents out facilities to any and all so it can make for some interesting times if you're in-house on course and don't leave on the weekends.   Great place to be if you enjoy crashing weddings as there is a pretty good shot that's the only way you'll get into your mess on some weekends.

Background of the Campus St Jean


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## Bloggins (5 Nov 2005)

I am not sure but isn't the tap water in Oakville not potable? Allot of regular force pers that get posted to the GTA are quartered in Oakville. Why anyone would want an ancient falling apart hand me down from good old Capt Canuck is beyond me. And this is Oakville we are talking about. If the Army sold it at market value soldiers else where could stand a shot for a decent set of quarters. No one ever thinks that the army should simply be allocated un-used land from other Govt departments so why would the army be expected to just hand something over? The author of the article may wish to keep his ear to the ground for more news worthy issues.

Cheers.


----------



## x-zipperhead (5 Nov 2005)

North said:
			
		

> OK,   I am sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone who likes living in PMQs, but
> 
> Are YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???????????????????????????????????????
> 
> ...



I'm curious, if you feel people are stupid or lazy ( I'm not sure which it was you were implying ) for living in PMQ's, why is it you lived in one for two years?

I spent 8 years in Pet.  2 in single qtrs, 2 in Q's and 4 in my own house.  I left Pet in 03 and it seems to me you are greatly exagerating the state of the Q's and the schools.  I have to agree with Old Ranger that any home is what you make it.

Everybody has different circumstances and for some a PMQ makes sense ( maybe they are on IR, or expect the posting to be a short one,  personal finacial situation, or maybe they just choose to live there ) . 

Q's aren't for you? great, me either, but you don't need to be offensive.


----------



## sig_cs101 (5 Nov 2005)

i'de have to agree, Q's aren't for everybody. i'de say if you have to option to live somewhere else do it. if not deal with it


----------



## Armymedic (5 Nov 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I was under the understanding that the PMQs in Oakville were dedicated to housing the Staff and Students of the Staff Schools and Staff Colleges located in the Metro area.   I am sure that there are times when there may a large number of vacancies and times when they will be fully occupied, depending on what Crses are in House.   In my opinion, someone was having a "Slow Press Day" and as usual any anti-military subject makes a good filler in the TO area.



OK, so that is why they have Q's in Oakville. That makes sense why they are mostly empty, and why they must be kept. I would have thunk they had Q's in the Downsview area for Staff College.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Nov 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> OK, so that is why they have Q's in Oakville. That makes sense why they are mostly empty, and why they must be kept. I would have thunk they had Q's in the Downsview area for Staff College.


Remnants of an Old Base in Oakville.   Downsview was full of 'worker Bees' for Downsview and area. Gives the Senior Officers on Crse a better environment to live.   Who knows the logic.   Probably cheaper than putting them all up in Luxury Condos and Penthouses in TO.


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## North (10 Nov 2005)

Well, If you love the Qs, I wish you well.

But Mold, leaks, asbestos? Not my kind of home.

The schools. I still have the results from my child's grade 3 EQAO testing. Not up to my standards, or the government's.

Having your child sit and watch Military Police running around with guns drawn because your neighbor has barricaded himself in his house, then proceeds to blow his head off? Just not a good scenario in my opinion. 

Your kids coming home from school saying 'Mommy, everyone else's mom goes to the bar Friday night and the dad's stay home. Why don't you?' In my opinion, just gross.

The guy in charge of base housing telling me it is only supposed to be a _temporary_ accommodation situation. I dunno, you tell me...


Just MHO. It's not the best you can do.


BTW, I now live in a lovely home in a mixed neighbourhood. I am paying down a mortgage quickly and paying much less a month for 4 bedroom home than I was for a 3 bedroom Q. 


Good luck to you all. If you are happy in your surrounding, that's great.


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## aesop081 (10 Nov 2005)

North said:
			
		

> Well, If you love the Qs, I wish you well.
> 
> But Mold, leaks, asbestos? Not my kind of home.
> 
> ...



You're an ***** !!

I live a few years in the PMQs at 2 different bases, made some good freinds, never saw the MPs with guns drawn, never seen anyone blow their heads off.   In the civy neighbourhoods i have lived in....mom' s go to the bar on fridays too....

Shake you freakin' head ...


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!! (10 Nov 2005)

A friend of mine was posted to Edmonton last summer and bought a home in St. Albert. Just yesterday while he was at work, his kids at school and the wife out job hunting, some kids high on crystal meth broke in, stole all the electronics and smashed everything else. The husband is shortly going on tour only to leave his familly in the same house.

 My advice to the wife was to rent out the house and try to get a PMQ. Why you may ask? The military community is a far sight safer than the big city. You can trust your neighbors, walk the street at night, the rent is inexpensive(comparatively) and theres always a support group around for the wife and kids.

 I lived in q's for 8 years and hated the fact that there was usually a rent increase and maintenance was a problem but to most people the q's can be a godsend. If we as the CF keep b****ing about it, we will most likely lose all base housing.


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## GO!!! (10 Nov 2005)

The q's are not a bad deal in a market like Edmonton. You live within walking distance of work, the necessities are all there, and it is safe.
When was the last home invasion in LP? How about a shooting?

Sure there is the usual crap like kids breaking into your car for the change in the ashtray, and the usual retarded antics of the MPs. But at the end of the day, the only downside of the PMQs is that you are not building equity in a property you own, or getting the benefits of an appreciating property. With proper saving this should'nt be such a big deal though.

For the same price as a PMQ, in Edmonton you can get a crack shack in a $hit part of town and fix it up (like I did) or a small townhouse/condo. Not really attractive alternatives if you have a few kids, compared to a safe community like Lancaster Park.

So bash the PMQ's if you want, but I would have had a very hard time saving for a down payment if they had'nt been there.

In my experience, if someone was'nt complaining about the empty houses, they would be complaining that the military families there were "unfairly subsidised" or "lacking in diversity" or that there were civvies in them when they should have been reserved for families. 

Besides, this bi*** was a realtor! Did she just give houses to welfare families when she was working? Or did she skim a commission off of the equity of every working couple she could when they tried to realise the value of their investments? How many welfare families are in her basement? I'd like to see some evidence of her generosity before she hands over a soldiers house.


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## Wingman (10 Nov 2005)

I have lived with my family in the Q's for 2 years after having owned my own houses for over 15 years and my experiences have been nothing but postive.  I lived in Saint-Hubert and had great neighbours and a quiet neighbourhood with good schools there.  I am in Kingston now with the same results.  Great neighbours and good schools but a little on the pricey side with poor PLD (I can't figure out how the big heads in Ottawa figure it out but I'm not a Stonecutter).  The MPs here are good, they do their job and stop the idiots with their souped-up Civics going 60 through the school zone but isn't that their job?  IMO, this is much better deal than a $250,000 mouse-house where your yard is smaller than a mod tent in suburbia hell. 

The base comd here has periodic open meetings so mil pers and thier spouses can go and ask questions.  The PMQ area is clean and safe with a very good family resource centre.  My PMQ is in good shape for its age and is in better shape than most of the houses I bought previous to joining.  There is a high vacancy rate here but that is largely due to the low interest rates; if they went up the vacancy rate would most likely go down.

If you live in a crappy area then maybe you should take the initiative to change it.  Get involved.  And what is a mixed neighbourhood and why is it important that you point this out?  Its obviously some PC term and my PC reference book is on order.


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## Armymedic (10 Nov 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> You're an ***** !!
> 
> I live a few years in the PMQs at 2 different bases, made some good freinds, never saw the MPs with guns drawn, never seen anyone blow their heads off.   In the civy neighbourhoods i have lived in....mom' s go to the bar on fridays too....
> 
> Shake you freakin' head ...



I concur, and I live in Petawawa. In PMQ's.

Thanks for your opinion, now just sum up.


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## GO!!! (10 Nov 2005)

Wingman said:
			
		

> I have lived with my family in the Q's for 2 years after having owned my own houses for over 15 years and my experiences have been nothing but postive.   I lived in Saint-Hubert and had great neighbours and a quiet neighbourhood with good schools there.   I am in Kingston now with the same results.   Great neighbours and good schools but a little on the pricey side with poor PLD (I can't figure out how the big heads in Ottawa figure it out but I'm not a Stonecutter).   The MPs here are good, they do their job and stop the idiots with their souped-up Civics going 60 through the school zone but isn't that their job?   IMO, this is much better deal than a $250,000 mouse-house where your yard is smaller than a mod tent in suburbia heck.
> 
> The base comd here has periodic open meetings so mil pers and thier spouses can go and ask questions.   The PMQ area is clean and safe with a very good family resource centre.   My PMQ is in good shape for its age and is in better shape than most of the houses I bought previous to joining.   There is a high vacancy rate here but that is largely due to the low interest rates; if they went up the vacancy rate would most likely go down.
> 
> If you live in a crappy area then maybe you should take the initiative to change it.   Get involved.   And what is a mixed neighbourhood and why is it important that you point this out?   Its obviously some PC term and my PC reference book is on order.



Yes...initiative - like fixing up my house and selling it for a tidy profit - which is what I'm doing. That was the idea from the start - I am happy with my choice. My definition of "getting involved" involves the mysterious dissapearance of the street criminals - and someone is taking care of that in Edmonton right now!

I believe (I may be wrong) that a "mixed" neighborhood is one where "working class and white collar families live in harmony" You'll have to ask whoever said it.


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## Griswald DME (13 Nov 2005)

I wholeheartedly agree with those who say go for a house.  PMQ's are a waste of money, even if you are happy with the one you are living in.  I purchased a house in Edmonton when I was in the reserves there.  I paid $28K and it is now worth over 100 thousand dollars.  I rent it out and after paying the mortgage (I had the house appraised and ran another mortgage on it after paying the house off so I could afford a place in Vancouver), taxes and any repairs I make a few hundred a month off the house.  Its great.  I've done that in Vancouver as well, and where I am currently posted I plan to keep the house and rent it out as well.

In the end I will retire with a huge income and become a major slumlord and move to mexico, meet some senorita there, drink a few tequila's, hole up in a nice hotel until the good lord taketh me away....    Ok ok maybe my wife won't like the senorita deal and tequila makes me sick... but you get the point.  If you can do it, buy a house. As another poster mentioned, the CF pays for everything so take advantage of it.  Plus if you buy a large house in town or near a college you can rent a basement suite out to help out with the mortgage.

IAW

Just say no to PMQs!

DME


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## Springroll (13 Nov 2005)

My uncle and his wife just purchase 161 acres of land with a cottage on it, about an hour north of Edmonton, for $42,000...if you can afford to buy now, then buy. Don't waste the money on a POS PMQ


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## GunnersGirl (28 Nov 2005)

:argument:

sometimes I just like to watch these things to see where they are going...this time I am actually going to come out of lurk mode because I have something to add to this conversation....

My family will be moving into the PMQ's in Petawawa next week. It is our first posting.  We have 5 children, 4 of whom are homeschooled for the time being. One of the most important things the children have learned this year is that you must make the most with what you have, as we have been downsizing - substantially -  in preparation for our move. The kids are NOT saying, "I have BIGGER toys and BETTER toys than other kids" or "I need BIGGER and BETTER toys because the ones I have are not good enough..." they are PLAYING with their toys. Go figure. Maybe some adults could learn a thing or two from them? Be thankful for what you have and don't be one of the many jerks in the world that are under the mistaken perception that the sum of the things you own determine your value as a person... 

I do not YET live in a PMQ. I wonder if some day after many postings I will complain about the state of them, instead of being thankful that the cost of the move is not coming out of my pocket and the landlord actually takes care of the place.(perhaps I am just misinformed, but does the military NOT make certain these homes are well-maintained?) I am glad to not have to worry about one MORE thing that has to be done to our "fixer upper".

(Incidentally, I would LOVE to own a home, but even though the place we *rent* now is not in the "ritzy" part of town, and there is a hole in the bathroom floor, and the neighbours are rude and loud...and... and .... and ... etc etc etc...*it is clean, and safe, and HOME.*)

~scully~

looking forward to our first posting to CFB Petawawa...in the FABULOUS, WELL-MAINTAINED PMQ'S! :nana: :nana:


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## AoD71 (28 Nov 2005)

How is the home-schooling working out? I imagine it works well since most of your kids are doing that. I want my sister to be home-schooled, cuz the teachers at her school are freaking horrible. They hand out work for the night, and check it the next day and thats all they do. Most of the things my sister is trying to do for homework she hasn't even seen before (I know because I am the one teaching her). I don't want to see the system fail another potentially brilliant mind.


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## Tracker 23A (13 Feb 2006)

I was hoping if someone could give me a good idea of what the housing market is like for those who get posted to Shilo.

I am in Gagetown right now, but I am planning (just in case, and not yet confirmed) on moving to Shilo if Edmonton doesn't work out for me.

Looking for any info on new homes and any new developments.  And if push comes to shove, what the PMQ situation is like.

Thanks in advance.

must remember to watch spelling, Shilo not Shile.

[Mike: Corrected title spelling to help future searches.]


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## Blakey (13 Feb 2006)

Google:
Brandon Real Estate Board 
http://www.breb.mb.ca/


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## Tracker 23A (13 Feb 2006)

What is the average driving distance/time from the base to Brandon


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2006)

25-30 min weather permitting


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2006)

if it does come to shove let me know via pm


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## Tracker 23A (14 Feb 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> 25-30 min weather permitting



Is there any new housing developments around Brandon.  I used to live in Calgary then Edmonton with the 1st, and there were tons of new housing going up, lots to choose from.

Is there any names for new places in and around Brandon where guys have bought houses that may be on the net?

Thanks in advance.


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2006)

Yes there is.  Brandon is growing quite quickly.


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## Tracker 23A (14 Feb 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> Yes there is.  Brandon is growing quite quickly.



You wouldn't happen to know if any of these sites have websites or can be found on the web?


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2006)

No.  I live in a PMQ.  I can't even tell you what the going rate is other then MB is fairly cheap to live.  The links above may help you out.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (14 Feb 2006)

Just call any real estate office in the area, they will be more than happy to send lots and lots of info....


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## clk320 (8 Mar 2006)

Greenwood: A single house 2 br. is $325.00 with fixed hydro at $49.00 and oil for a year no more than $600.00.  The Q is in good shape and was redone in 2002 except for the kitchen.  Actually you can see the kitchen display in our new war museum it's kind of funny and scary at the same time.


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## Ed Gagnon (9 Mar 2006)

Hi folks,

I completely agree and highly recommend the concept of buying a home.  With soldiers going on deployment and coming back with a fair amount of cash burning a hole in their pocket, they should be looking to buy a home (as opposed to cranking on the first Ford  F250 they see).  In Petawawa, folks who did this five years ago have seen their houses increase in value by a significant amount.  I personally purchased a house in Petawawa in 1977 for $36K.  That same house is now worth about $150K.  In 1986 I purchased another house in Petawawa for $80K; that house is now worth $180K.  In 1993, I purchased a farm in Pembroke for $135K and that property is now worth $300K.  I am not bragging but just showing you the increase in value in an area that has lagged behind the rest of the country.  

The trick is to keep buying a house if you are posted.  The danger is that a lot of folks, however, tend to buy up as they move from house to house ending up with too large a mortgage so that the time until they eventually become mortgage free keeps moving far into the future.  I am personally very lucky to be mortgage free and you cannot really even begin to think about retiring until you have a house without a mortgage.  And God knows every soldier wants to retire!!  

If you are single, buy a house and rent rooms to your single friends.  I have to thank all my single friends (some of whom are now doing well in their own homes as they learned a good lesson) for paying for the house I am now living in.  Thanks guys!  The shacks have not improved over the last few years, so you will always have single guys looking for a home to live in.  Oh and it is all tax deductible against your mortgage interest.  I lost $10K a year tax free when I got married because I had to kick all the single guys out!  My new wife was worth it!!

My advice to anyone who complains about CFHA is to move into your own house and become your own CFHA.  I am not saying "If you don't like it, move!"  I am simply saying, move and start investing in your future so that in twenty years (believe me twenty years will fly by in the blink of an eye) you will have some serious equity.  I always remember a freind of mine who worked for me and retired and started to look for a house.  He was shocked that a house was actually going to cost him $100K.  Imagine what it is like retiring with seventy percent of your salary (or less) and trying to service a $200K mortgage...can't be done!!  That is why many folks retire and start to work at Home Depot...or just don't retire.

Good luck and get yourself a good real estate broker (if you are in Petawawa, call me and I will refer you to one),

Ed Gagnon
Ex-slum lord of Lisa Crescent


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## orange.paint (20 Mar 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Petawawa:
> 
> 3 bdrm rowhouse $450
> 4 Bdrm row $550
> ...



The south side appts (civilian) were 420 a month last year.

Here in Gagetown my duplex cost 455 a month with about 150 dollars per month on oil.

Some of the shack rooms seem really high I payed 56 dollars a pay 3 years ago in Petawawa.


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## jc5778 (8 Apr 2006)

Anyone know if there is a waiting list for PMQ's in the Halifax Area? I heard that nasty little rumour and was wondering.  Not sure If I'll have the down payment to buy on my posting this fall and am curious if I need to pray for an available PMQ.  For the record, I am hoping for Bedford so Shearwater would be the closest.  On a side note, anyone who is currently down there and can maybe offer a little info in the way of Real Estate and or Employment Opportunities for spouses would be greatly appreciated.  PM me if you'd like.  Don't want people in a dither over getting off topic  

Cheers!


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## NCRCrow (8 Apr 2006)

7/10:

Shearwater:  PMQ Houses (Drafty & Mould issues)

Windsor Park (HFX): Block Apartments (Ghetto) (I used to live their in another life so I can say that)

Buy a house!! Even a 100K  Eastern Passage semi if u have to. (the downpayment could be your one month entitlement of 5 %)

Housing is booming again, you will make some money!!! At least 30-40k in 4 years.

Lots of call centers hiring!


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## Scoobie Newbie (9 Apr 2006)

Lots of PMQ's in XXX 7-10 ;D


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## jc5778 (9 Apr 2006)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> 7/10:
> 
> Shearwater:  PMQ Houses (Drafty & Mould issues)
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for the info.  I am probably going to line "my ducks in a row" so to be able to buy.



			
				CFL said:
			
		

> Lots of PMQ's in Shilo 7-10 ;D



Not on your life  ;D  There is 1 guy who just left Battalion to start the ammo tech course who wants to return.  That's it   Also, next course starts in September......If your interested.

Cheers!


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## angeie (15 Apr 2006)

I live in Shilo and I LOVE my PMQ!


----------



## NCRCrow (15 Apr 2006)

That's nice.........how about elaborating on your one line contribution to this thread


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## ready to go (4 May 2006)

Can someone please summarize life on base for me. What is it like? What is there to do? What kind of jobs are available? How much does it cost? And one other question that may sound ridiculous, but seriously, what kind of food is available? I am considering taking residence on base between training and deployment and would like to know a little more about what it's like. Particularly in Edmonton. Thank you.


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## theseeker (4 May 2006)

hey ready-to-go alot if not all the info your are looking for can be found on line. try the web page 

www.army.gc.ca/1ppcli       try that it should help


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## LHUDIE (8 May 2006)

Is this Phil Hoolboom from Moose Jaw?


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## Redneck052 (15 May 2006)

Since originally writting this I had been posted to Victoria.  Not any better for PMQ's, but at least we get PLD.  However they decreased it shortly after getting here.  Cost of living is more, such as food, utlities and that.  I am paying $750 for a three bedrom duplex, with a basment this time.

But the status of the PMQs across Canada do need to adressed, the conditions of the housing that we find having to put our families into is really no better then the quaters in Petersville in Gagetown.  PLD was put into place to help cover cost of living expenses, not to cover the cost of our rents to CFHA.  With the never ending rise in the price of fuel, food, utlities, and other cost and is it going to take for Ottawa to take notice that there "might" be a problem with housing cost, and pay.

Unfortuantly, what it may take is for the discouvary of a frozen NCM family wrapped up in blakets sitting in front of Coleman stove trying to stay warm, because they couldn't afford to pay for heating oil that month because of the last CHFA rent increase.

The RCMP just received a pay increace of 9.4% over 3 years, and we are getting 2% in October, watch out for the rent increases!


----------



## Booked_Spice (16 May 2006)

Alright.. HUGE PROBLEM....

Need HELP...

Hubby is Afghanisan. So yesterday my bathroom floor in the q was sopping wet. I can't figure where the water is coming from. I thought my daughter was playing.. SHe is a trouble maker. Well daughter is in Bed. Water is soaking up 2 towels in a couple of hours. I mop all the water up. Well I am downstairs in the kitchen ( which is directly under my bathroom), there is water on my kitchen floor. I mop that out. I find out that water is dripping from my ceiling. I l look for numbers for after hours emergency. They told me I would be charged if they came out. Well at 2 am. Water is now pouring my light. My kitchen was raining. I am standing there having no IDEA what to do. Don't want to go near the light. So I decided to mop it up and the water stops pouring. I Phone housing first thing this morning. Got an answering machine. Told them it was really important. No phone back. I called them  3 times after this. No Call back. There is no more water leaking from my light. HOWEVER I am not touching it.. I have NO idea why it did this. Because nothing was leaking in my bathroom. I AM NOT A PLUMBER. But housing does not seem interested in talking to me at all. So honestly this is the first time I have lived in the Q's. How do I get housing to help me. This may sound stupid I am scared to even turn my kitchen Light one ( I am not an electrician) So I have a baby that needs a bottles in the night.. I am stumbling around my kitchen trying to get them.  

I would imagine that my problem is pretty important........but I am lost.. They seem not to want to help me out. I have loads of problems with this Q.. They would be prompt when Hubby would phone.. but they won't even answer for me.

Please can someone help ME... LOL.. I don't want to have a shower and fall through to the kitchen.. LOL..

Thanks in advance


----------



## kincanucks (16 May 2006)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> Alright.. HUGE PROBLEM....
> 
> Need HELP...
> 
> ...



Did you husband leave you any information about his unit's rear party and contact numbers?  Do you have the number for the Military Family Resource Centre?  Call them and make sure you keep a record of many times you called the CFHA help desk.  Good luck.


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## Redneck052 (16 May 2006)

Get your husbands units rear party to Search and Destroy who evers is responsible.

For one, if it is a emergency, of no fault of your own, should CFHA not pay for the after hours sevice call.  Or at lease care to see how you are doing.  Good God, your husband IS DEPLOYED!!!  

Second, I had my sump drain back up, and my basement began to get water in it, the evening of News Years Eve.  The guy didn't even finish unitl 12:30am.  It was not a problem here, not even a suggestion of cost.

The first thing they should have asked is if you were ok.  Are you ok now?  And you call the rear party and tell them everything about what happen with CFHA, let them teat them a new ashole.  My wife had more then enough things to worry about at our last base, with me being gone, the two kids, and everything.  Then having to fight with CFHA.  

Actually she calls them CFHAAH,  kind of sticks.... Canadian Forces Houses Agency Ass Holes !!!  Kind of fitting too.


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## xrme (20 May 2006)

It's been a while since I lived in a Q, but, when did those occupying Q's have to start paying for repairs, and emergency repair calls? Sounds to me, like the after hours emergency number might be direct to a contracted plumber or said company. I would hope that CFHA would pay for the service call...even after the fact. And, even if they don't, you can sue for compensation. I remember when I left q's, I ended up suing CFHA for a difference in my hydro bill of about $12...CFHA was supposed to read the meter, and forward the reading on day of departure...they didn't. when I got my bill, I was being billed for a Q that I hadn't occupied for several weeks.

While I empathize with the situation, and from past experiences, and from current friends' experiences...CFHA does not care one way or t'other if hubby is home or otherwise deployed....why would they?...rear party on the other hand, should.

Seems that CFHA and IRP, although "there for the members" ... aren't all they're cracked up that they're supposed to be.


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## gaspasser (21 May 2006)

Not sure if this one was covered.  But, redneck052, Kingston does get PLD....yeah, a whopping $26/mos.  I feel bad for the guys out west on the coast with F'all to help with rent.  Is it still bad out there?  remind me not to get posted out to the coast.And the reason there is such a large vacancy in K'ton....the Q's do suck!  They're built on limstone, so most have no basments...I lucked in closer to the fort on the apartment side.  They just tore down a whole bunch of "slummy" looking ones, as niner calls them.  In Trenton they look a little worse for wear...anyone here from T'ton with any info, just in case I need to move into a Q before I get a house? 
Cheers, out.


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## Booked_Spice (21 May 2006)

Just as a heads up..

Rear Party does not get involved in Q problems. They said I should right a letter and complain. HA HA HA.

Anyways here is an update.After loads of phone calls and complaints and even a few threatening calls. They sent someone to come help me. But it took a lot of threats. I did however receive numerous calls and apologies. One problem down now on to fix the next one. OH housing is going to love me...


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## kincanucks (21 May 2006)

Booked_Spice said:
			
		

> Just as a heads up..
> 
> Rear Party does not get involved in Q problems. They said I should right a letter and complain. HA HA HA.
> 
> Anyways here is an update.After loads of phone calls and complaints and even a few threatening calls. They sent someone to come help me. But it took a lot of threats. I did however receive numerous calls and apologies. One problem down now on to fix the next one. OH housing is going to love me...



Then the rear party is useless.  Call them back and make sure you speak to the Officer Commanding the rear party.  They are not there to fix your problem but they certainly can assist you in dealing with it.


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## beach_bum (21 May 2006)

Wow.  Some rear party.  I'm glad your problem got solved though. 

As for the emergency line charging if you use them, I have not encountered that and I have had to use them a couple of times.  Though their willingness to help left a little to be desired.  My furnace died a couple of years ago at night.  It was January.  When I talked to the emergency line (person was in Ottawa) they told me they wouldn't send someone out, as I lived on the coast so I didn't really need the furnace anyway.   :  At that time it was 14 C in the house and dropping.  It was about 2C outside!  I tore them a new one....and they sent a guy out.  I didn't have to pay a thing and the guy was there at 2am.


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## Kevin_CF (23 May 2006)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> 7/10:
> 
> 
> Buy a house!! Even a 100K  Eastern Passage semi if u have to. (the downpayment could be your one month entitlement of 5 %)




What is the entitlement that you're talking about?  I'm just going through a component transfer to the reg force, and I'm going to be posted to Ottawa.  Does anyone know what kind of benefits/help I can expect for the initial move?


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## Spring_bok (24 May 2006)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Then the rear party is useless.  Call them back and make sure you speak to the Officer Commanding the rear party.  They are not there to fix your problem but they certainly can assist you in dealing with it.



In Pet for example we use the Deployment Support centre when we are away and this seems to negate all responsibilities of rear parties.  These non-deployable types are way too busy with Maury Povich to deal anything more taxing than picking up box lunches.  I can remember when people stayed on rear party because they could be relied on to take care of our families in emergencies if required but we have contracted that out now too.  Just a rant, I am done.


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## JugbandClegg (28 May 2006)

I've never heard of the afterhours line charging you for an emergency situation.  I have heard of people calling the afterhours line for silly things in the past and it might arise that some of the cost as passed on to the caller.  The charges for the calls come in to CFHA and they take care of it.  I've heard complaints about the afterhours line in the past, as calls are deferred to a call centre.  The calls do not go directly to the contractor, the go to the centre and then they contact the contractor.  During hours that CFHA is open make sure it is the repair line you are calling, not the general enquiries line.  At the CFHa I worked at the repair line was always given a high priority and dropped calls were uncommon.  Also keep in mind some calls take a while to answer as the problem needs to be described in a lot of detail so they know what to tell the contractor.


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## military granny (10 Jun 2006)

Does anyone know if there is any formal or informal plans for the guys when they get back on base? I don't mean work days off etc. I mean like a place families can be to meet them when they get off the buses. I am going down there to meet my son and I would like to know this before I get there. And please Ladies and Gents don't tell me to contact the MFRC or rear party from there because I haven't heard a peep from either since the boy left.


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## Scoobie Newbie (10 Jun 2006)

I can make a call or two.
Could you PM to remind me.  I rarely remember what I had for dinner the night before.


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## military granny (10 Jun 2006)

Thanks Quagmire


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## reccecrewman (27 Jun 2006)

It actually would have been nice if the Government wanted to get rid of responsibility for the PMQ's, they should have sold them on the private market, rather than handed them over to CFHA.  Then, use some of the proceeds from the sale of the houses to put up fencing if required to separate the operational portion of the Base from the Q's.  In Pet's case, it wouldn't be difficult.......... They'd only have to run a line from the by the ice rinks to the gate behind the Canex, and another from the edge of the field house, along the road around the ball diamonds to the fire hall.  I know I'd rather have my own place than have to deal with CFHA.  

One other thing with CFHA, the Barracks are all price regulated according to rank, the Q's should be as well.  A Private in the RCD will pay roughly $75 a month for his room (cable included).  Another Private in the RCD (Or any Unit in 2 Brigade) who happens to have a wife and kid or 2, gets to pay $500 a month or more.  I think that CFHA should have set their prices according to rank as well.  Just my .02

Regards


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## George Wallace (27 Jun 2006)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> One other thing with CFHA, the Barracks are all price regulated according to rank, the Q's should be as well.  A Private in the RCD will pay roughly $75 a month for his room (cable included).  Another Private in the RCD (Or any Unit in 2 Brigade) who happens to have a wife and kid or 2, gets to pay $500 a month or more.  I think that CFHA should have set their prices according to rank as well.  Just my .02



You missed out on something.  They are set by rank.  They are also set by type of quarters that the individual is in.  There is a formula that combines the different 'factors' and comes up with the amount that you pay for your quarters.  I am sure that you will find that not all RCD Privates are paying $75 a month - well let's make them Cpls.  If they are living in a 4 man room in F-16 they would pay less than a person of the same rank in the new 'Quads' or someone who had a 'Single' room in F-16.  The same goes for the PMQs.  The rent for an Apartment is not the same as for a Row House nor a Single House.  Rank and type of accommodation factor into the equation to come up with the 'Rent'.

As for you not wanting to deal with CFHA, don't.  Get out of the Quarters and rent an apartment, or even better make an investment and buy a house.


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## reccecrewman (27 Jun 2006)

I think for the first time EVER (In my experiences with you anyway) your wrong George.  The PMQ's in Pet are not priced by rank.  Rank has nothing to do with the price of a Q in Pet.  You are correct that there are different rates for different types of dwellings, but I assure you that I pay the exact same for my 3 Bdrm single dwelling as my next door neighbor who is a Sergeant.

Regards

............ I'm disillusioned, George was actually wrong about something......... There's 1, 2, 3......... dagnabbit, where's that 4th horseman? I know he must be near.....  ;D


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## George Wallace (27 Jun 2006)

I can see that happening.  Is your Q in better shape than the Sgt's?  Is the Major down the street in a similar house paying the exact same as you?  There are many factors that are involved in the Rent paid.  How long have you lived in your Q, as opposed to the Sgt?  The Rents are raised quite quickly when the house is empty, but a lot slower when it is occupied.  Perhaps the Sgt has lived in that Q since he was a Pte and you moved in much later.  Then you would be hit with a much higher rent than he, as he would only have his rent go up.....what is it permissible by law.....6%?......where yours could be jacked up as high as they wanted prior to your moving in.


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## reccecrewman (28 Jun 2006)

Damn intangibles............. Hmmmm...... Food for thought eh?  Well, you're much more worldly and wiser than I due to age & experience, but I'm still certain that CFHA in Pet only has the one price list and houses are set at that price.  Now, if the rent goes up, I can see them adjusting the prices of ALL their PMQ's, unless the dwelling is occupied and the raise brings it higher than what is allowed by law, then they would probably just raise it the max the law allows and the following year, raise it again until it is the same as all dwellings of the same style.  In any event, you brought some factors into the mix that I never even considered......... again, the experience factor comes into play here.  6 years just don't stack up against 35+.  ;D

Thanks George

(PS - Still waiting for that juicy story you did up on that German Garrison flag sitting in our archives - looking forward to that)


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## camochick (28 Jun 2006)

While babysitting Booked_Spices house the water came back last weekend, and let me tell you. I would rather live in a box than deal with CFHA. I was told upon first calling that someone will only come if they pretty much feel like it. So after a few minutes of being cranky, they said they would make sure the contractor new this was important (That was after saying that the water is coming out of a light fixture and it would cost them more to fix a burnt down house than a leaky one). Then they send perhaps the most useless plumber on the planet who turns the water off in the house as a solution. I even called the rear party and found out they are just as frustrated with CFHA and there isnt much they can do but lodge a complaint and since its the government, that can't be done until monday. So lesson learned, I will never live in a Q. I much prefer renting my house in the ghetto to dealing with CFHA. >


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## daisiedupp (7 Jul 2006)

Do you have to be married to live together in the PMQs? I'm moving up with my bf when he gets posted and we were hoping to get one of these (although now after reading all this I'm not sure!) Also, is it cheaper than renting?


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## kincanucks (7 Jul 2006)

daisiedupp said:
			
		

> Do you have to be married to live together in the PMQs? I'm moving up with my bf when he gets posted and we were hoping to get one of these (although now after reading all this I'm not sure!) Also, is it cheaper than renting?



This issue has been covered before.  No unless you are common law or married and the PMQs rents are are usually the same as civilian street or sometimes even higher.


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## daisiedupp (9 Jul 2006)

So you have to be married or common-law to live in PMQs? Sorry, I just needed clarification on that point.  And I understand that there is the option of living in civilian housing, but I thought alot of the bases were not really around civilian housing.


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## mckie0514 (9 Jul 2006)

camochick said:
			
		

> While babysitting Booked_Spices house the water came back last weekend, and let me tell you. I would rather live in a box than deal with CFHA. I was told upon first calling that someone will only come if they pretty much feel like it. So after a few minutes of being cranky, they said they would make sure the contractor new this was important (That was after saying that the water is coming out of a light fixture and it would cost them more to fix a burnt down house than a leaky one). Then they send perhaps the most useless plumber on the planet who turns the water off in the house as a solution. I even called the rear party and found out they are just as frustrated with CFHA and there isnt much they can do but lodge a complaint and since its the government, that can't be done until monday. So lesson learned, I will never live in a Q. I much prefer renting my house in the ghetto to dealing with CFHA. >



If anyone in Edmonton EVER has problems with CFHA, please contact me.  My dh and I are on the community council here and we work closely with CFHA.  If you feel you're not getting anywhere, contact me and I will make sure it gets done!  We've helped a lot of residents when they have issues with CFHA.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (17 Jul 2006)

mckie0514 said:
			
		

> If anyone in Edmonton EVER has problems with CFHA, please contact me.  My dh and I are on the community council here and we work closely with CFHA.  If you feel you're not getting anywhere, contact me and I will make sure it gets done!  We've helped a lot of residents when they have issues with CFHA.



I was really appalled to see the problems with CFHA at booked spices location. I take it that that is Edmonton from the fact that Camo chick was in on the thread too and her locale is Edm I believe.
the MFRC here in Halifax will deal with stuff like this as we use them as our rear party...we work differently due to the fact there is no Regimental affiliations...once ships sail they are gone.
I think it is a good idea to get your community council involved and have you considered getting a hold of a Chaplain?
The Duty Chaplain may be able to get things moving for you after hours but also your Rear Party Chaplain should be able to liaise with CFHA and get some answers too.
I just finished 4 years in Q's at Gagetown (01-05) and must say didn't have a lot of heartache with them...I must say though I'm enjoying my own place again....and my spouse is "way happy" too. ;D


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## exsemjingo (31 Jul 2006)

I'm looking for PMQ rent rates around Edmonton and across country, so that I can make a budget.  There are some prices on this thread from 2 years ago, but we are in a new economy now, especially in Alberta.
Any input would be appreciated.


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## Sub_Guy (31 Jul 2006)

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/info/aboutcfha_e.asp   Look around, there should be some information on that webpage


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## armyrules (5 Aug 2006)

HEy guys I wsa wondering when I get transferred to my unit is it possible for my girlfriend to come and live with me? Thanks for all responses in advance  

:cheers:


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## Pte_Martin (5 Aug 2006)

armyrules said:
			
		

> HEy guys I wsa wondering when I get transferred to my unit is it possible for my girlfriend to come and live with me? Thanks for all responses in advance
> 
> :cheers:



Where are you going? and are you just coming out of your MOC course? Are you common law or is it just your girlfriend? If she's just your girlfriend then you have to apply to get an apartment or PMQ which depending where you are it could take Little bit, but once you do get accepted for a place then yes your girlfriend can come live with you


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## armyrules (6 Aug 2006)

i'm applying for cmbt engr. So wherever the unit is . How long is the wait? thanks


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## sigtech (10 Aug 2006)

armyrules said:
			
		

> i'm applying for cmbt engr. So wherever the unit is . How long is the wait? thanks



1)Is she your GirlFriend or Common law spouse?

If she is your Grilfriend that it will take longer to get a PMQ and you will have to pay to move her to where ever you are located

2)How long is the wait?

Depends on the base and the number of Q's they have open

Now if you are just applying you mite be getting ahead of yourself, First you need to go to BMQ and then you trade course. If you trade course is longer then 6 mounths you may be able to apply to move out into the Q's while on course, this is only if she is your spouse or common law spouse. If you course is not over 6 mounths then you must wait to finish and get posted once posted you may apply for a Q

If you can get common law status before entering the military or even tie the knot this will save you money and hassel

cheers


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## Blackadder1916 (10 Aug 2006)

Thankfully I’ve never had to deal with the CFHA nightmares as described in this thread, as it has been many years since I’ve lived in a PMQ.  But, I can recall less than adequate service from Base Housing and the CE section.  However, I was wondering if anyone had recent experience with Self-Help Housing (SHH) in Ottawa. http://www.pspottawa.forces.gc.ca/shh/intro_e.asp

My experience goes back many, many years, when my (then) spouse and I were both posted to Ottawa as Jr Ranks.  We were lucky enough to move into SHH directly from Calgary.  Ottawa was at that time a hot real estate market…way more than Calgary.  Rents for PMQs were significantly less than on the economy and there was a long waiting list.  While in Ottawa on HHT, we were informed about SHH and applied.  Oh lucky man!  We found it to be a great deal.  In comparison to some of our friends who lived in Qs, our rent was much less than what they paid and included all utilities plus cable.   Undoubtedly, some things have changed over the years.

SHH was a CFB Ottawa NPF activity.  It was administered separately from Base Housing as a means of providing affordable housing to the many Jr Ranks posted to the expensive Ottawa region.  It was row housing (several hundred units) on the Uplands base that was available only to married MCpl and below. Its own employees, not CE, performed maintenance.  

While SHH was not luxury, it was, IMHO, much better than the PMQs in which some of my friends were living.  I wondered why similar operations had not been started at other bases.  Would not a housing organization run by soldiers for soldiers (with hired professional management) as a non-profit co-op be of substantially greater benefit and more accountable to its tenants than housing administered by a government agency whose primary concern (or so it seems) is that tenants do not pay less per sq ft than in the local housing market?


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## Navy_Pete (3 Sep 2006)

The SHH is a great idea, especially in markets where the housing is  way out of the range of anyone ( like Toronto or Victoria).  I know guys posted to Victoria that are living at the absolute limit of the call in range, and have an hour commute to work every day, just becuase that was the only place they could afford.  I think the main problem with Qs is that they are govt run, so there are all kinds of rules that apply.  I know when they jacked up the rent in Victoria to get them in line with the local market, they got really expensive real quick.  The only good thing is that thanks to the nice weather, the heating costs are reasonable, because they really aren't worth what they are charging for them.

Kind of sad that we need to use NPF to get a program going so that members aren't worried about where their families are living when there are so many more important things on the go.


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## Redneck052 (19 Sep 2006)

Hello everybody.

Once again another city since I first started this post.

Can anyone tell me about CFHA in Halifax?  All the dirt, rumours, secrets, or hints will be great, so I can be prepared further when I need to deal with them.

Lets keep talking about the costs, conditions, and short-comings of our PMQs (or CFHA), and maybe someone will hear us (lol).

Thanks for all the responses.


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## Armywife_chimo (21 Sep 2006)

We had a 3 bedroom single house in Edmonton.  about $650.  WE had a row house in Greisbach, about $500.  A 4 bedroom attached house is about $800.00 If you can you are better off buying but don't buy in Edmonton. Buy north of the city in Legal, BonAccord, Gibbons... You can get a 3 bedroom less then 5 years old house for $150 to $170k. IF you stay in Edmonton you are looking at about 200k.


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2006)

Armywife_chimo said:
			
		

> IF you stay in Edmonton you are looking at about 200k.



Only 200k...........wow, i wish !!

around here, arm yourself with about 300k


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## Gunner (21 Sep 2006)

> Buy north of the city in Legal, BonAccord, Gibbons... You can get a 3 bedroom less then 5 years old house for $150 to $170k. IF you stay in Edmonton you are looking at about 200k.



Maybe a few years ago.  Not much in that range, if you can even find it):

In Gibbons (7 houses on the market, 1 lower than 200,000):

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=0-0-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=0-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=5805&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d6472

In Bon Accord (1 house on the market (less than 200,000)):

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?PropertyID=5041426&Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=0-0-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=0-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=5801&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d6472

In Legal (only 1 house on the market (over 300,000)):

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?PropertyID=4835055&Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=0-0-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=0-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=5807&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d6472

In Morinville (a shack at 150,000):

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=0-0-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=0-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=5809&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d6472

In St Albert, don't even consider looking (even if one was aval) at a house below 300,000:

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=0-0-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=0-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=5809&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d6472

Northwest Edmonton (you don't even enter the detached home market until you are over 200,000):

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=0-0-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=0-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=6630&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d6395

Same with Northeast Edmonton:

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyResults.aspx?Mode=0&Page=1&vs=1&rlt=&cp=&pt=0&mp=0-0-0&mrt=-1-0-0&Beds=0-0&Baths=0-0&f=&ft=all&o=A&of=1&ps=10&ptgid=1&aid=6621&MapURL=%3fAreaID%3d6394

Edmonton is a tough market to buy into but I still recommend it over renting, particularly if you are posted into the area for a number of years.

Good luck.


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## exsemjingo (26 Sep 2006)

I agree, housing prices in Edmonton right now are Nucking Futts!
Makes me glad to be a renter...


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## Shamrock (26 Sep 2006)

Yhea, but it made me glad to be a seller.


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## R@chel (2 Oct 2006)

We live in a 3 bdrm duplex in Ed. on base and our rent is only $640.  It's completely redone and really pretty nice inside.  Plus we have a full backyard.  I pait $200 more for a 2 bdrm apartment in Southern, ON.

I know ppl who live off base here in Ed. and they pay either the same or more than us.

Houses are really expensive though.


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## Mike B. (29 Oct 2006)

I had a question regarding a move that I am having in January. I will be going to Halifax for roughly 9 months or close to a year for my equipment phase. I'm not entitled to purchase a house, so rather than try and find a decent apartment to rent I was wondering if St. Laurent Block had single rooms as opposed to have 2 per room? Can Leading Seamen get a single room as per single quarters? I'm almost sure A-Block doesn't have singles, so that's where St. Laurent Block comes into play. I wasn't sure if they were for MS and above or not. If so is it as simple as requesting a single room down at accomodations at Stad?

Also anyone have any experience in the single rooms in St. Laurent Block? (I'm assuming they are about half of the size of the normal 2 per room in the mods.


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## parkhill (8 Feb 2007)

I have heard that the housing on base is being renovated just like the reast of the base's, is casino, leary, etc all goin to have it done?


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## Roy Harding (8 Feb 2007)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Yhea, but it made me glad to be a seller.



I bought a house in Fort Saskatchewan in 1996 for 95K.  I sold it in Dec 06 for 258K (after reducing the price by about 7K for a quick possession (we needed to get out of there, as we had already bought here in Terrace).

I too am glad to have been a seller.  On the other hand - the price I got was, in my opinion, OBSCENE.  The house was nothing special - a 1970(ish) bi-level (also known as a raised rancher), about 1000 sq ft.  Two car detached garage - no fireplace, no a/c, nothing fancy, just your average "working man's house".  I felt sorry for the young couple buying it - hell I couldn't afford to buy my own house!!

The housing market in Edmonton (and as I understand it - the remainder of Alberta) is outrageous.  Regardless, if you can POSSIBLY do it - buy a house/townhouse/condo, whatever.  The sooner you do it, the sooner you'll be mortgage free.  Even if you sell for less than you bought (this happened to me TWICE), your loss will still not be as much as rent would have cost you, AND you will have increased your equity.

Being mortgage free is probably one of the most satisfying experiences of my life. The sooner you start paying one, the sooner you'll be done paying it.

Just a thought.


Roy


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## mckee19 (26 Mar 2007)

k this might have been covered but i only skimmed over the 14 pages of posts, but how much does the single bedroom barracks cost in edmonton?
and say if your posted to Canadian Forces base, what are the chances of being reposted and buggering up everything you have set up with the buying of a home and what not?


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## honestyrules (9 Apr 2007)

Good day,

Jeez....I got Bagotville...
It is my turn to post in here as I'm posted from Gagetown to Bagotville. I would like to know what the situation is reference the Q's over there. It seams that the rowhouse's rent is higher than individual units... strange to say the least. Also, what about the cost of services (hydro-gas).


Regards,


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## 3rd Horseman (9 Apr 2007)

It is always better to buy your home as early as possible in your carrier. The price normally always goes up. Don't wait till your 10 years away from retirement cause you will be paying for that home on your reduced income. If you buy in the first few years of your carrier you will have your home paid off by the time you reach your first retirement date at 25 years or sooner. If you do this you can then buy a second income property and have it paid for by the time you fully retire giving you an income and much equity. $600 to $650 per month will get you at 100,000 of mortgage, better to pay yourself then the landlord.

At least that's a realtors point of view...but then I guess I'm bias.

3rd Horseman
Your Remax Realtor at Gagetown (ya I know bad plug)


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## Bigmac (4 Jun 2007)

> *Soldiers get the shaft*
> 
> By ANDREW HANON
> 
> ...



     I was posted to Edmonton '93 to '97. I lived in a PMQ duplex at Greisbach (10315 149 Ave, still remember the address) and was thankful they were available as the housing market, even back then, was expensive. Affordable housing for military members is becoming a thing of the past. The government wants to sell off most of the PMQ's as they did in Greisbach. Unfortunately even the PMQs are becoming overly priced now and good luck getting anything repaired in a timely manner! I lived in a PMQ when I was first posted to Petawawa but the price started to become ridiculous for the tiny 2 bedroom PMQ I was given. Luckily I bought a house in '03 when the market was still good and left PMQs. A large number of CF members cannot afford to buy a house the PMQ rates on some bases are absolutely overpriced for the accommodations you get. I am sure PMQs are still a cheaper option in Edmonton though.
     
     Should the reigns be taken away from CFHA? Are PMQs viable in todays CF? Sound off everyone.


----------



## GAP (4 Jun 2007)

Please supply a link to your article.


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## Bigmac (4 Jun 2007)

My apologies, both for not finding previous forum and forgetting to paste article link. Damned KRAFT disease!

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Columnists/Hanon_Andrew/2007/06/04/4232524.html


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## bily052 (4 Jun 2007)

Here in Kingston, I found that after but 1 yr of living in the Q's, I had enough.  The difference a year and a half ago that CFHA wanted to jack my rent to compared to my Mortgage is about $28.00.  (not even a case of beer)  My drive is a little longer, 22km vice across hwy 2, but if I can at all help it, I'll never be in Q's again.  The crooks CFHA will never get another penny from me!

billy


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## Pte_Martin (5 Jun 2007)

For me it seems whenever i have a problem (which is alot of times) It takes CFHA forever to come fix


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## scas (16 Jun 2007)

Are the waiting list really that crazy in Edmonton for Q's has anyone had problems who may have moved there recently! were just wondering because each time we call they always have something different to say and its nothing good my wife is waiting back in Borden until something comes available with 2 kids and due in September and September is when they "say" we should have a Q but since things always change when we call we don't really believe it anymore anyone know if this crazy waiting list


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## camochick (16 Jun 2007)

At one point last year we were looking for somewhere new to rent and we decided to get on the PMQ list because the rent was reasonable and in Edmonton, it's not always easy to find available rental housing, and over the span of six months we went from being 20th on the list to 35th on the list and they said it would be atleast another year until we got a Q, so that should answer your question, although we were told that people posting in got priority.


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## The Bread Guy (18 Jun 2007)

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

*Nelson warns feds*
Kapyong site to be held 'hostage' in 'legal limbo'
ROSS ROMANIUK, Winnipeg Sun, 18 Jun 07
Article link

 The controversial chief of a Manitoba First Nation is vowing to hold Winnipeg's Kapyong Barracks site "hostage" until federal government officials hand over all the land his reserve is owed under a 135-year-old treaty.

Chief Terry Nelson of Roseau River First Nation issued the warning yesterday while discussing commercial enterprises planned for the band's newest reserve site just northwest of the city.

Federal Indian Affairs Minister Jim Prentice conferred official reserve status last Tuesday on about 75 acres of land recently purchased by the band in the Rural Municipality of Rosser. The chief stressed, however, that Prentice's move still leaves nearly 5,800 acres to be designated as reserve land for Roseau according to a 1996 settlement of a lawsuit in the matter.

He also insists the mothballed Kapyong military base, vacated by the Canadian Forces five years ago, should be transferred to First Nations control because it's "prime property."

"We're basically going to hold that hostage," Nelson said of the Tuxedo site, which has long been touted as ideal for commercial and residential development.

_STOP DEVELOPMENT_

"I'm going to keep it from being developed until they settle with us on our lands. We're going to keep that in legal limbo. We'll run them through court until such time as they deal with the land quantum for the reserves."

Nelson's tough talk comes as First Nations across Canada prepare for a "national day of action" on June 29 to push Ottawa to settle native land claims. The protest could include highway and railway blockades.

He and members of the Roseau reserve, 80 kilometres south of Winnipeg, will meet tomorrow to decide whether the federal reserve allowance in Rosser should spur them to withdraw any blockades they have planned.

Meanwhile, the Roseau band has ambitious business plans for the Rosser site near the north Perimeter Highway that it purchased from a private owner for about $600,000 several months ago.

"You will see a gas station there in a month and a half, ready for operation. That's the first order of business," said Nelson said, citing Swan Lake First Nation's reserve site and gaming lounge in Headingley as a model for the site.

"You will see, within maybe two to three years or maybe not even that, a car dealership for sure. You will see a restaurant, of course, and a VLT lounge pretty quickly," he said. "You're going to see a furniture warehouse. You're going to see quite a bit of development."

However, municipal approval is needed for such projects and the RM of Rosser has tried to concentrate commercial sites farther east, near Brookside Boulevard along the boundary with the city.

"We prefer to keep our commercial concentrated in one area," said Rosser Reeve Alice Bourgouin. "We don't want it scattered all over farmland."


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## pbi (18 Jun 2007)

This isn't really a CF issue any more, and if DND has done the transfer to Canada Lands it isn't  even a  DND issue either. Personally, I see no reason why in a city with a population of over 70,000 aboriginals, the first nations shouldn't get a fair go at being landlords. I bet some of the resistance is coming from the South Tuxedo property owners: if any of you know the 'Peg, you will know Tuxedo is one of the upscale areas in the SW part of Wpg. I don't agree with the FN's sabre-rattling about "holding it hostage" but I am 100% in favour of resolving outstanding land claims issues as quickly and fairly as possible, and I don't think that has really been the Fed Govt's track record thus far.

Cheers


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (18 Jun 2007)

I hope they put a big ass casino there to piss off the richie rich locals that used their swagger to help oust us.


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## Greymatters (18 Jun 2007)

Quagmire, I'd be interested in hearing how that happened.


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## scas (18 Jun 2007)

Okay then thanks for the help!


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## Northern Ranger (18 Jun 2007)

pbi said:
			
		

> This isn't really a CF issue any more, and if DND has done the transfer to Canada Lands it isn't  even a  DND issue either. Personally, I see no reason why in a city with a population of over 70,000 aboriginals, the first nations shouldn't get a fair go at being landlords. *I bet some of the resistance is coming from the South Tuxedo property owners: if any of you know the 'Peg, you will know Tuxedo is one of the upscale areas in the SW part of Wpg*. I don't agree with the FN's sabre-rattling about "holding it hostage" *but I am 100% in favour of resolving outstanding land claims issues as quickly and fairly as possible*, and I don't think that has really been the Fed Govt's track record thus far.
> 
> Cheers


++1


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## Lilspark (18 Jun 2007)

scas said:
			
		

> Are the waiting list really that crazy in Edmonton for Q's has anyone had problems who may have moved there recently! were just wondering because each time we call they always have something different to say and its nothing good my wife is waiting back in Borden until something comes available with 2 kids and due in September and September is when they "say" we should have a Q but since things always change when we call we don't really believe it anymore anyone know if this crazy waiting list



We were posted here in September, but didn't move into our Q until November, so we had to live in a hotel until the Q we had signed for became available. From what I heard around base is that the waiting list is 2 years and there are over 70 families waiting for a Q. We were thinking of buying when we first got here and looked around, but our little old house in New Brunswick was only $52k, so we didn't of course find anything comparable for 250k, but we probably should have because the market had still increased a lot since then. Now the plan is to live in the Q, save our tour money, pay off debts and when we get posted back east we will have a good downpayment for a home there. We did find some places at the time we were looking for under 300k but found out they had capital health orders on them or were advertised as "you can either fix it up or tear it down lol" The bottom line.. yes long waiting list maybe you could go restricted posting for awhile?


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## 1feral1 (18 Jun 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> I hope they put a big ass casino there to piss off the richie rich locals that used their swagger to help oust us.



Good one, but how about a 'government low rental' housing project instead! That would really make 'em unhappy'. I do remember the BREN guns in the HQ Bldg, and the SGTs' Mess well. Last there c.1993

Cheers,

Wes


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## ei.evans (20 Jun 2007)

I have a friend here in Borden that is waiting for a Q in Edmonton. She says that they change there mind everyday. Her husband is over there now while she is here with 2 kids and she is very pregnant.

As for prices, We are used to London prices which are crazy high. So the $750 we pay for our 4 bdrm semi (no basement 1 bathroom) isn't too bad. What made me a little mad was that we originally had a 3 bedroom single and paid $950, then we moved across the street to 200 sq ft more and $200 less! I guess they are trying to compete with the Toronto prices but its ridiculous.

This is our first time living in a Q. Since 2003 whenever we call to have something done in the house it takes them a LOOOOOONG time to get it done. I feel as thought they get annoyed when we ask. So we have stopped calling them. We can fix it much quicker. I hear that CFHA and the Q's are much nicer and easier to deal with on other bases. I'm hoping so, guess we'll find out next year *fingers crossed*. ;D


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## scoutfinch (20 Jun 2007)

scas said:
			
		

> Are the waiting list really that crazy in Edmonton for Q's has anyone had problems who may have moved there recently! were just wondering because each time we call they always have something different to say and its nothing good my wife is waiting back in Borden until something comes available with 2 kids and due in September and September is when they "say" we should have a Q but since things always change when we call we don't really believe it anymore anyone know if this crazy waiting list



ei.evans:

Does this story sound familiar?


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## Booked_Spice (22 Jun 2007)

Well, in Edmonton my q is available after Aug 1/07.

However with that said, I am hoping whoever gets our q, they will at least renovate it. It is a shambles and good luck getting anything done. We bought an acreage outside of Edmonton. We lucked out and got a great deal. 
I really do feel sorry for families getting posted to Edmonton right now, because the rents in Edmonton are sky Rocketing or they are changing rental units to Condos .

I also here through the grapevine the Q rents are going to increase this year. I expected it. I wouldn't mind paying more money, if you would be able to get anything fixed in a timely mannor. 

Good luck to all those coming to Edmonton


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## Siggywife (6 Jul 2007)

We sold our house in Nova Scotia for 166,000 last fall before moving out here to Edmonton..My husband regrets taking his promotion..Which he shouldn't be.. He feels quility for us having to sell our home after the nightmare we faced when we were in Kingston and vowed we never live in Q's again..but look where we are now.. I am not upset at the fact that we are back in Q's I missed the companionship and close neighborhood here or on base in general.. I don't get the "I don't know how you do it.." speech. He is getting ready for the 108 Tour and thats the way it is.. So Just like others we are saving our money and looking eastward to find suitable housing for us..


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## Springroll (12 Aug 2007)

My ex and I just sold out house in NS too. He is now living in Windsor Park Apts (Hfx, NS) and the kids, pets and I are in a PMQ in Work Point (Vic, BC).

Only been in the Q for a week and already I miss owning my own house. We were lucky and I got priority for a 4bdrm, so we actually had less then a month to get everything moving for this place. There was no way that I could afford a 4 bdrm anything on the economy while living with a OS's salary...so a PMQ was the only choice. 

Maybe in a few years I will be able to have enough saved to buy a nice cardboard box in Duncan...lol


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 Aug 2007)

more like mediocre carboard box up island. I got out of the navy fot the same reason, cant get into the market on even a CPL 4 wage, and a 4 bed half duplex in belmont is just shy of a grand, its time for a low economy market in southern manitoba for me. (ps, I've been trying to get my bayhroom floor fixed since the outbreak of the afghan war)


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## X-mo-1979 (21 Dec 2007)

Well.. we must be getting another pay increase.
My rent went from 550 to 574,just got a notice in the mail.
Apparently this box is worth 675 a month according to the appraised shelter value.

Just when I thought we were getting ahead again.and yes on a mcpl pay with a child and a domestic wife,24 dollars is more money I don't like parting with.


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## George Wallace (21 Dec 2007)

Time to bite the bullet and buy a house.

That was the best advice I got, way back when, from Sgt Rick Smith when he was RSS with us.  Buy a house on every posting you get, he advised, and when you get out you will own a house.  When I got to Pet, before they contracted out the Cleaners, many of the Shacks had former RSMs as cleaners.  They had lived in Q's all their careers, drove the big car, owned the big boat and on Retirement had to sell them all and take out Mortgages that they could not handle.  So start investing in a house as soon as you can.  In the end you will own a house, even if that is not where you want to retire.

I didn't start right away, but on my third posting I had no choice but to do just that.  There was a two year waiting list in Kingston at the time, and I was only on a two year posting.  I bought and made a few dollars when I sold and invested that in a house in Pet.  Eventually when I sold in Pet, I paid off the Mortgage on the house in Ottawa.  Now I, not the Bank or CFHA or some landlord, own my house.  

We have a couple of good topics on this.


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## navymich (21 Dec 2007)

I had the shock of my life today.  In the mail was the dreaded CFHA envelope.  Surprisingly though, my rent DROPPED!!  Effective 1 Apr, my rent decreases by $55!!!


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## TN2IC (21 Dec 2007)

Mine is one arm and one leg..... with no insulation by the Altantic Ocean. I'm going to forward my oil bill to CFHA if they don't smarten up. Ah and the neighbour and the drive way I share with them.. quite intresting PSYOPS/civil war we got on the go. All they have to do is pick up their garbage and stop giving my wife dumb ideas. Oh and their mini van attacks my deck... WTF!

Okay I'm ranting again.... ugh...
Gagetown PMQ's are WAY better then here!

 :cdnsalute:


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## NCRCrow (21 Dec 2007)

Get out the Q's! Now!

Listen to GW! 

Get a Duplex in the Passage to start...work up from there. We make too much $$$!


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## a78jumper (22 Dec 2007)

You could be living here in Ft McMurray; I am paying $2500 a month for a two bedroom apartment. Mind you I have earned six figures since I started here 2 May. Trailers are $400k ++, detached homes $500K+. I am buying a house about half way to Edmonton in cottage country next spring and will continue to let out rooms here for $1000 a month. I fully expect the rent will be $3000 a month when I sign a new lease next Jul. I live here,nice one year old complex but not the Ritz, about he size of a smallish PMQ. http://www.nelsonridgeestates.com/


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## ModlrMike (22 Dec 2007)

I'll second (or third) George's advice. My wife and I arrived in Edmonton in 92 when the base was fully staffed and we couldn't get a PMQ. We ended up buying a house and have never looked back. I will never go into a PMQ unless there is no other option.


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## a78jumper (22 Dec 2007)

I sold my house in Edmonton in 1992 when my idiot Career Manager, the  Area G4 and  my equally simple CO orchestrated a posting to Ottawa as punishment. $112,500 :crybaby:


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## ModlrMike (22 Dec 2007)

That's the same year I bought mine. It's worth 4 times what I paid for it now.


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (22 Dec 2007)

Just got that letter in the mail from CFHA too.  And I think hell must of just frozen over, or maybe the LEAFS will win the CUP, (couldn't help myselfbut in Toronto our rent went from $1414.82 to $1271.96.We are in a 3 bdm rowhouse.  And just in time to be posted this summer!  I think I need to go out and buy a lottery ticket!!!!!


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## NCRCrow (22 Dec 2007)

CFHA......what a Mafia!


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## Franko (22 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> CFHA......what a Mafia!



Yep, charging outrageous fees for apartments and Qs that were paid off 3 decades ago, with old insulation, mold, possible asbestos in attics and other problems.

Try to get something repaired and you are literally waiting 5 months. 

Check on the progress every 2 weeks and they give you an attitude like they are doing you a favour. 

Fair market value my......         

Regards


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## bily052 (22 Dec 2007)

I had a 4 bdrm duplex in Kingstown.  When I moved in, rent was but a mere $671.  Within the 1 1/2 yr living there it was "Assessed" for an increase to $980.  I went looking and bought a house 20km from Base in a quaint little town of Amherstview.  I have not looked back since.  If I can at all help it the Rip Off Agency (aka CFHA) will never get another penny out of me....

bily


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## beach_bum (22 Dec 2007)

angelmich said:
			
		

> I had the shock of my life today.  In the mail was the dreaded CFHA envelope.  Surprisingly though, my rent DROPPED!!  Effective 1 Apr, my rent decreases by $55!!!



Must be nice.  Mine went up again.   :crybaby:


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## TN2IC (22 Dec 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Get out the Q's! Now!
> 
> Listen to GW!
> 
> Get a Duplex in the Passage to start...work up from there. We make too much $$$!




I have been eyeing down towards Shore Rd. I don't care for a duplex, had one, I didn't care for them. Now a bungalow... now we are talking. Just need the 3 bay garage.  ;D


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## IN HOC SIGNO (22 Dec 2007)

Knecht Ruprecht said:
			
		

> I have been eyeing down towards Shore Rd. I don't care for a duplex, had one, I didn't care for them. Now a bungalow... now we are talking. Just need the 3 bay garage.  ;D



Eastern Passage eh??? Hope you like fog. One good thing about it is you won't have to waste money on air conditioning. ;D


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## dimsum (22 Dec 2007)

Here's my dilemma.  I'm posted to Winnipeg for a bit of OJT and a course, so it should be under 18 months.  What do you guys think of getting a Q there if it's only for under 2 years v. looking outside on the civ rental market?

From what I'm reading, all the issues have been for people who've been on real postings of 4-5 years or more.


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## George Wallace (22 Dec 2007)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Here's my dilemma.  I'm posted to Winnipeg for a bit of OJT and a course, so it should be under 18 months.  What do you guys think of getting a Q there if it's only for under 2 years v. looking outside on the civ rental market?
> 
> From what I'm reading, all the issues have been for people who've been on real postings of 4-5 years or more.



Several questions.  Are you sure you will only be posted there for two years, and not have that extended in the future?  What are you going to do if your next posting is only for two years also; and the one after that?  Why would you want to rent and pay off someone else's mortgage for them, when you can get a mortgage of your own, and pay less than a rental, and own the property which you can sell when you get posted?  

Having a mortgage for a two year posting or a twenty year posting, really doesn't make a difference.  You have your legal costs covered.  You can't loose your shirt on sale of the house, should the market ever drop again.  You are master of your own house.  No inspections.  No long waits for CFHA to come make repairs.  No living in a "box" like every other Q.  Upgrade to your hearts content.  Rent it out if you want.  Lots of options if you own.  None if you rent.


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## TN2IC (22 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Eastern Passage eh??? Hope you like fog. One good thing about it is you won't have to waste money on air conditioning. ;D




Arrr..... I be liking 'em foggy days...


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## blacktriangle (23 Dec 2007)

Can a person choose to live in the shacks for the entire duration of their career? Some of my family grew up in PMQ's and told me not to waste my time with them, should I ever be eligible for one. 

From what I've read in other threads, rations and quarters cost under 500 a month...I intend to live alone, it sounds like a bargain to me. Any feedback? 

Thanks.


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## ModlrMike (23 Dec 2007)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Can a person choose to live in the shacks for the entire duration of their career? Some of my family grew up in PMQ's and told me not to waste my time with them, should I ever be eligible for one.



You can choose to... whether they are available at every posting is another question. Just the same... buy a house/condo etc when you can.



			
				popnfresh said:
			
		

> From what I've read in other threads, rations and quarters cost under 500 a month...I intend to live alone, it sounds like a bargain to me. Any feedback?
> Thanks.



Your profile says you're 17. In my experience, what you intend at 17 is not where life leads you.


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## blacktriangle (23 Dec 2007)

Roger on all points.

Thanks again.


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## Nfld Sapper (4 Jan 2008)

Mods use your magic if need be.

Backgrounder (archived link)
The Strategic Disposal of CFB Winnipeg (South): Kapyong Barracks and The South Site Housing Lands
BG–07.033 - December 18, 2007

The Consolidation of CFB Winnipeg
CFB Winnipeg consists of two sites: a north site and a south site.  The south site, also known as CFB Winnipeg (South), is further  divided into two separate sites: 

the Kapyong Barracks, and; 
the South Site Housing Lands. 
CFB Winnipeg currently operates solely out of the north site.  The base is comprised of a number of military units that support and conduct flying operations and a variety of training functions. The base also provides technical and logistical support for 113 units, stretching from Thunder Bay to the Alberta/Saskatchewan border, and from the 49th parallel to the high Arctic.

Both sites at CFB Winnipeg (South) have been declared surplus.  Kapyong Barracks is nearing the end of the strategic disposal process, while the South Site housing disposal process is just beginning.

Kapyong Barracks
The Kapyong Barracks site is often mistaken for the housing site, when in fact there are no residential dwellings at Kapyong Barracks.  This was an operational site used primarily for administration, equipment storage, vehicle maintenance, training, and drill exercises.  

The former Kapyong Barracks site has been deemed surplus and will soon be sold to Canada Lands Company CLC Limited (CLC) for redevelopment.   The Department is currently completing the Strategic Disposal process. 

CFB Winnipeg (South) – The South Site Housing Lands 
The South Site Housing Lands are made up of 358 residential units and have been the focus of much public comment and speculation.  

The housing site will be declared surplus, and, until the sale is finalized, the Canadian Forces Housing Agency (CFHA) will continue to maintain the homes on behalf of DND.  At present, the South Site Housing Lands consist of: 

230 houses are occupied by Canadian Forces (CF) Regular Force and CF Reserve Force members, DND civilian employees, and employees of other Government of Canada departments; 
126 vacant houses, 26 of which are being kept aside for future allocation purposes, and; 
Two office spaces owned by CFB Winnipeg. 
In accordance with Treasury Board Secretariat’s “Directive on the Sale or Transfer of Real Property,” the South Site Housing Lands will be sold to CLC as a Strategic Disposal.  A needs analysis was conducted and concluded that there is an anticipated short and medium-term housing requirement.   The sale of the South Site Housing Lands will be conditional on this housing requirement being met. 

The image below details both the Kapyong Barracks and the South Site Housing Lands.  The two sites are adjacent to one another on the southern location of CFB Winnipeg; however, they are two separate and distinct sites.





_- mod edit to add archive link to (for now) archived version of backgrounder -_


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## Greymatters (4 Jan 2008)

What happened with the First Nation claim for ownership of the southern lands?


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## SeaKingTacco (4 Jan 2008)

Federal court recently disagreed that they had a legitimate claim, IIRC from CBC before Christmas.


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## Greymatters (4 Jan 2008)

That certainly took a while to sort out...


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## ready to go (13 Jan 2008)

I have a question to pose to someone who has lived in a PMQ in Edmonton. I am a young Reservist and am looking to CT to the Regs. My wife and I  are expecting a new baby this fall and have a 3 year old right now. Would the PMQ's be a suitable option for us to start with?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (13 Jan 2008)

ready to go said:
			
		

> I have a question to pose to someone who has lived in a PMQ in Edmonton. I am a young Reservist and am looking to CT to the Regs. My wife and I  are expecting a new baby this fall and have a 3 year old right now. Would the PMQ's be a suitable option for us to start with?



Sure it would be suitable - but the waiting list is quite long, so don't count on it.


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## X-mo-1979 (13 Jan 2008)

I moved to petawawa with a wife and child,let me tell you the list is very long.

I got "Lucky".

And I'll leave it at that.


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (14 Jan 2008)

Ready To Go, we are supposed to be posted to Edmonton this summer too and had heard of the huge, long waiting lists to get a PMQ there.  I phoned CFHA a couple weeks ago and was told it does depend on how many get posted in or out, but last summer they got everyone POSTED into their Q within a couple of months of their posting message. The sooner you get it in the better and your name will go on the list 30 days before your posting date. So, the sooner you get it to them the better.  She also told me it depends on what your needs are, that the larger houses may be harder to get.  And that the HUGE waiting list was for people that live there already that want a Q.  Posting IN has priority over people wanting to get a Q that live in the area.  If you have any questions phone CFHA yourself(just Google CFHA)  I may be living in a fantasy world, but I felt better after I talked to them.  Robin


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## X-mo-1979 (18 Jan 2008)

They had us stressed out big time.Trying to explain to them that I would like some form of time line as to when I could get a Q was the biggest problem.Being told to just come to petawawa and wait for a phone call was not cool with a wife and child.I tried to explain to them that if it was going to be a couple months to a year I was going to go I.R.They could not give me a time line.

They didnt care much at all.

However I decided to talk to their boss's boss.And finally magically I had a march in date.
The stress of our move knowing I was starting TMST and work up training shortly after,I really didnt enjoy the problems with CFHA.
This posting will hopefully be my last in a PMQ. (all works out in the army as well  ;D)


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## Franko (12 Aug 2008)

As pretty much everyone here in Petawawa knows there is a severe lack of PMQs for service families, as it is at so many bases across Canada.

This has been ongoing for quite some time and has been getting worse as time marches on. More recruits with families getting in because of the recruiting push etc.

There are still single fellas and gals putting in for and getting PMQ with room mates as well. I have no problem with this as long as families have priority.

My question is:     Why is CFHA tearing down row houses and not building new ones?

That's right. At least 8 so far have been torn down, basements ripped out completely and back filled....and not one (by the looks of things) is going to be re-built.

It seems that in every court they are tearing down a row house on the south side, I have no idea on the North side.

Anyone have any reason why? 

It can't be because CFHA can't afford it. The other PMQs have been paid off for well over 30 years and they don't roll any monies into upkeep anymore...at least not like they used to. Self help is pretty much gone completely and the last time I asked for some work to be done it took over 9 months for them to finally come in and do an estimate and another 3 months to complete the job! 

Bueller?

Regards




_modified title for clarity_


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## pfl (12 Aug 2008)

Why the hell are single people allowed to get PMQ's? Roomates?! wtf  This is the military not f'ing lets play while the parents are away. 
If when I get to Borden I have to wait for a PMQ due to other military personnel w/familes I dont mind, if theres a bunch of frat party retards Im gonna flip. Or just move off base lol


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## Snafu-Bar (12 Aug 2008)

Well me being single, why should we be left out if we feel that staying on base is better than renting an apt at higher costs? Sure availability should have priority when it comes to wives and children, but if there's vacancies why shouldn't a couple of guys be able to accupy it in the mean time?

 Cheers.


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## SupersonicMax (12 Aug 2008)

SNAFU, availability now doesn't mean availability later.   The PMQ you will take now may be required in a year or two by a family....


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## Franko (12 Aug 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> SNAFU, availability now doesn't mean availability later.   The PMQ you will take now may be required in a year or two by a family....



They can't evict you unless there is a shyte load of complaints against them either.

Believe me, it took over 2 years to get rid of 3 monkeys around my old Q...the final complaint was them beating their dog.

SPCA, charges placed and they were gone.

But again, I digress.

Anyone in the know...why are the Qs not being replaced?

Regards


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## Snafu-Bar (12 Aug 2008)

If a family is taking over so be it, then i consider that reasonable grounds to be forced to take an APT. If it's just sitting empty then i consider it a waste.


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## vonGarvin (12 Aug 2008)

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> If a family is taking over so be it, then i consider that reasonable grounds to be forced to take an APT. If it's just sitting empty then i consider it a waste.


See the previous two posts.  And remember that the "M" in PMQ stands for "married", not "for single dudes if there aren't married people around."
There are Single Quarters, and there are Married Quarters.  Single people in one, married in the others.

Anyway, I digress

As for why they aren't building new ones, I haven't the foggiest idea.  It may have to do with some obscure rule about square footage allowed to CFHA, or it may have to do with $, in other words, they dont' have to pay to upgrade rotting infrastructure.  Or to heat it.  Or maintain it.


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## pfl (12 Aug 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> There are Single Quarters, and there are Married Quarters.  Single people in one, married in the others.


+1


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## Mjohns (12 Aug 2008)

Having PMQed in Gagetown and Edmonton the problem remains.  G-town consistently condemns PMQs as soon as tenants leave them.  I don't know about the last few years but when I was there there was no drive to rebuild/replace those Qs.  They remained vacant and condemned.  

I can certainly attest to the fact that my current Q could be condemned 

There seems to be some short sightedness in the CFHAs plan (not a huge surprise).  Yes the Qs need to be replaced... but it would help if there was something to move into in the mean time.  I know WATC put the huge rush on and got Qs... maybe this is indicative of something else??  They don't want to build small scale?

I dunno but it is very frustrating to be sure.

Matt


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Why the hell are single people allowed to get PMQ's? Roomates?! wtf  This is the military not f'ing lets play while the parents are away.
> If when I get to Borden I have to wait for a PMQ due to other military personnel w/familes I dont mind, if theres a bunch of frat party retards Im gonna flip. Or just move off base lol



Perhaps, rather than "flipping" as a no-hook Private  : on a Training Base, you can start by reading up on some of the applicable regulations such as (which I am sure the Chief Clerk at 16 Wing - CFSATE is familiar with):

1)  QR & O Vol I, Chap 28.

28.08 – ALLOTMENT OF FAMILY HOUSING
   
(1) Subject to articles 28.06 (Entitlement to Occupy Family Housing) and 28.30 (Family Housing for Civilians), family housing shall be allotted in accordance with orders issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff.
    
(2) No officer or non-commissioned member to whom family housing has been allotted shall be dispossessed of the family housing without the approval of the officer commanding the command.

* note - students of CFSATE do not meet the rank requirements in 28.08(2).

2)  DAOD 5024 which refers to the DND Living Accomodation Instruction  (the .pdf file is 656kb in size so its too large to attach).

The ways in which PMQ are allotted changed DRASTICALLY in recent years.  You might want to start researching directives, policies and the like before you go 'sorting people out'.


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## pfl (12 Aug 2008)

Well Eye in The Sky believe it or not I'm actually going to Thank You for the info ;D


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## PPCLI Guy (12 Aug 2008)

Mjohns said:
			
		

> Yes the Qs need to be replaced...



I do not accept this premise.

How about we tear them all down, stand down CFHA, and take all of the funds that go to being an exceedingly average landlord, and allocate same to a housing allowance so that all soldiers can afford decent housing?

And before anyone throws in the "there is no rental housing in Petagagemonton", if the private sector is given enough heads up, they will provide.


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## navymich (12 Aug 2008)

Sorry RBD to continue this off topic conversation, but to add to Eye's post: for those of you unable to get to the intranet to see the link that was posted, you can view an article on the same topic  here in the Maple Leaf.



> The allocation of DND Living Accommodations will fall solely to the CF Housing Agency (CFHA). Allocation will be based on household size, on a *“first come, first served”* basis. So, except for Designated Houses, your position, rank and *marital status* will not be used to determine where you are on the waiting list, nor will these determine the housing allocated to you.


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## vonGarvin (12 Aug 2008)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> And before anyone throws in the "there is no rental housing in Petagagemonton", if the private sector is given enough heads up, they will provide.


"Build it, and they will come"...or rather "They will come, and they will build it"...or "They build because they are coming"....or words to that effect.


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## geo (12 Aug 2008)

IIRC, some years ago, the Australian gov't started dealing with entrepreneurs - to provide housing.
It tendered out guaranteed occupation for XX years at $yyy in rental income.  At the end of same said years, the contract could be renewed or the gov't could turn around and put out new tenders for new housing.

Not certain how this deal turned out (where's Wes when we need him ?) but, going to the private sector instead of maintaining this monstrosity called CFHA might be a good start.


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Well Eye in The Sky believe it or not I'm actually going to Thank You for the info ;D



Well, it was just some advice, and hopefully a pointer for you to start looking up some of the policies you will find yourself head-scratching your way thru in the CF.  It wasn't a "hey dummy" post.


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## mckie0514 (12 Aug 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> See the previous two posts.  And remember that the "M" in PMQ stands for "married", not "for single dudes if there aren't married people around."



Actually the "M" now stands for Military...Private Military Quarters.  This changed last year I believe.


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## Mjohns (12 Aug 2008)

Geo:

When I was working as an AdC a month ago I was escorting an Aussie Wng Comdr and that was the exact plan they laid out.  Effectively the Mil bought a subdivision and leased it, very low cost, to its members.  Once the houses reached a certain age (10 years I believe) they sold them off and took over a new "subdivision".  This is grossly simplified of course, but basically how they went about doing it.  According to him it has been a rousing success. 

For those members not within a reasonable distance to the "subdivision" for their employment a subsidy program was established.

PPCLI Guy:

You're point is valid.  Imagine if we had sold Griesbach with the intent to actually re-inhabit it on a large scale... guaranteed purchase to the developers.  They'd probably jump at the chance.

Matt


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Aug 2008)

RBD,

I am not sure about everywhere else but, some of the PMQs here in Shearwater are being redone, completely.  One was torn to the guts, just the frame left up and now its back up complete.  

I think CFHA is behind the 8 ball; the 'big drive' to recruit new soldiers, sailors and airmen/women, and then not enough housing to hold all the people who, for various reasons, don't or can't buy a house off base.

I also do not think the prioritization of the available PMQs is being done correctly;  IMO, a 'family' should have the first shot over single people with no dependants (as defined by the CF).  I would suggest that rather than correcting the previous way, they overcorrected to the point it is TOO wide open now.

My biggest pet peeve is how CFHA charges based on CMHA (cough Mafia cough) assessment of the real value in todays market, for MQs that were build decades ago, and have not, for the most part, had ANY significant improvements in a long time.  These properties were most likely paid for ages ago, and yet they still charge more and more each year for the MQs.  They can't even use 'rising fuel costs' for the Shearwater ones, as all heating is out of the occupants wallet.

I realize CF mbrs should pay a reasonable shelter charge but...this CMHA BS for assessing how much that is goes outside of that reasonable part IMO.  What with rising heating costs, that surely, are offset with PLD (which is really only 66% of what is actually allotted as 1/3 is sucked back in taxes...awesome beneift  :) but I don't think the formula and amounts are right yet.

Before the pile up starts...no I do not live in a PMQ  ;D but I DID in Shearwater in the past and what I said is based on what I see and know from being here in NS, the highest taxed English province in Canada.


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## kratz (12 Aug 2008)

In Borden, as the PMQs are vacated, they are alos being gutted to the frame and built back up. There is one down the street from us that has been undergoing this process for the pas t two months and still does not any drywall up yet. 

I agree rental rates are crazy. I understand they are to match local conditiions, but as mentioned above these places have been paid for years ago, many times over. As well, the square footage of the PMQs is smaller than what the rental rates are being charged IMO. As with Shearwater, you pay for your own heating in the Qs here in Borden.


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## Strike (12 Aug 2008)

WRT priorities, not sure how it works although I do know that Trenton uses them.  Friend of mine was considered a Pri 3 (Civvie working for the base) and could easily get bumped down the waiting list by higher priorities.  But once she got a Q she no longer had to worry about being bumped.


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## Reccesoldier (12 Aug 2008)

Sorry, with Pte Recruits earning $30,000/year and Cpl/Mcpl earning $50,000 a year why the hell should DND provide ANY accommodations?  The private sector will provide what it is in their best interests to provide.  As long as DND undercuts private rentals then there will be a shortage of private rentals.  And an offshoot of a private system is that there will probably be more jobs for dependants.


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## PMedMoe (12 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I also do not think the prioritization of the available PMQs is being done correctly;  *IMO, a 'family' should have the first shot over single people with no dependants* (as defined by the CF).



I disagree.  IMO, that is discrimination based on marital status.  I, for one, think it's about time they got rid of the "outdated" rules.   The priority idea Strike mentioned seems (a bit more) fair.  It's one thing to be bumped on a waiting list, but quite another to be settled in your home, only to be told you have to move because someone else needs it.  Don't see that happening anywhere else, so why should CFHA be any different?


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## Sub_Guy (12 Aug 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I disagree.  IMO, that is discrimination based on marital status.



Single people can live in Barracks, families can't, therefore the rule makes sense and it has nothing to do with discrimination.  Don't like it? Have a kid then join the happy bunch living in Q's. 

PMQ's were not designed for single people to live it up with roomies, they were designed for families.  It does depend on the base but single people can get the smaller 2 bedroom PMQ's, but don't expect the 4 bedroom.

As for PMQ rent I thought it was written that they can't charge you more than 25% of your pay?


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## dangerboy (12 Aug 2008)

For PMQ rent it depends on the base.  For example here are the rates for CFB Shilo:

House Type      No. Bdrms       No. Units     sq. ft.        Shelter Charge 
Single house     4                      6           1266-1882     $495 - $815 
Single house     3                    126          1066-1560     $425 - $640 
Single house     2                    78             730-1195      $405 - $510 

Row house       3                    120           1004-1080     $415 - $425 

Duplex              4                  138            1266-1642        $465 - $650 
Duplex              3                   226           1052-1560         $425 - $635 
Duplex              2                     4                974                   $440 

Link:http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/locations/shilo_h_e.asp


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## PMedMoe (12 Aug 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Single people can live in Barracks, families can't, therefore the rule makes sense and it has nothing to do with discrimination.  Don't like it? Have a kid then join the happy bunch living in Q's.
> 
> PMQ's were not designed for single people to live it up with roomies, they were designed for families.



I have a child and I have lived in PMQs.  Hopefully, I will never have to live there again.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Yes, single people can live in barracks and married people can go rent/buy a house elsewhere.  There are single people who have no wish to get married and/or have children who may want to live in more than one room with a shared bath and no choice on where to eat if you can't delink from the rations.

Also, not all single people who live in Qs are out there "partying with their roomies".  As a matter of fact, I knew more married people with kids who were doing that in the North Side of Petawawa.  Maybe the single people want out of the shacks for just that reason.

Oh, and it is discrimination:



> treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing *based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs* rather than on individual merit



Also, according to the Maple Leaf article link that AirMich posted, there is no longer "single" and "married" quarters.

Anyway, this doesn't answer the original question.  I know they're tearing down a lot of PMQs in Kingston with no intention of replacing them.  A lot of them were empty for quite some time.  I guess if the demand is not there, why waste money keeping them?


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## Nfld Sapper (12 Aug 2008)

And here is Gagetowns for comparison.

Total Married Quarters - 1616


House Type No. Bdrms No. Units sq. ft. Shelter Charge 

Single house 4 66 1121-1882 $605 - $770 Single house 3 477 822-1390 $495 - $655 
Single house 2 193 627-916 $450 - $495 

Row house 4 113 979-1143 $385 - $500 
Row house 3 499 791-899 $365 - $400 

Duplex 4 100 1128-1393 $560 - $665 
Duplex 3 166 850-1356 $480 - $660 
Duplex 2 2 809 $490 

Note: Information on this page is no longer current as of April 1, 2008 and is in the process of being updated. Thank-you for your patience. 

EDITED TO ADD:

There are 253 MQs with garages


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## Sub_Guy (12 Aug 2008)

Yeah every base is different with the rent, but they can't charge more that 25% of the gross family income.  

I do not see where the discrimination (way to work the google and locate a definition for me) comes in the picture because everyone can apply for a PMQ, it is based on household size and nothing else.  A single person can apply like everyone else and if there is availability you will get the PMQ, I know a single fella who just got a PMQ in Greenwood.  
Small family = smaller PMQ 
Brady Bunch = larger PMQ



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Also, not all single people who live in Qs are out there "partying with their roomies".  As a matter of fact, I knew more married people with kids who were doing that in the North Side of Petawawa.  Maybe the single people want out of the shacks for just that reason.



I see you have meet my brother!

I too have wondered why they are tearing down houses, especially in Greenwood they demolished an entire area of PMQ's near Dwight Ross, that area is vacant now, and there were quite a few row houses there.   It just seems typical of anything related to the CF, the lack of foresight.  
We downsize and get rid of stuff, the runway at Shearwater, Chinooks, tanks, and PMQ's....  Then it turns out that we need all those things and we have to fight to get them back.  Instead of just keeping everything "just in case".


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## George Wallace (12 Aug 2008)

mckie0514 said:
			
		

> Actually the "M" now stands for Military...Private Military Quarters.  This changed last year I believe.



Just wondering what they changed ESQs (formerly Enhanced Single Quarters) name to?


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Aug 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I disagree.  IMO, that is discrimination based on marital status.  I, for one, think it's about time they got rid of the "outdated" rules.   The priority idea Strike mentioned seems (a bit more) fair.  It's one thing to be bumped on a waiting list, but quite another to be settled in your home, only to be told you have to move because someone else needs it.  Don't see that happening anywhere else, so why should CFHA be any different?



I was unclear in my post.  To clarify, an example.  2 files come into the CFHA office on the same day, for the last PMQ.  One is a single family, service mbr is a Pte/Cpl with a stay at home mom and 1-2 children.  The other is for a single Cpl, no dependants.  The family, IMO, should get the PMQ.  However, I do not think that people already in a PMQ should be getting bumped out if they are already occupants.


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Aug 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I know they're tearing down a lot of PMQs in Kingston with no intention of replacing them.  A lot of them were empty for quite some time.  I guess if the demand is not there, why waste money keeping them?



A friend of mine was in the Qs up there while on course for an extende period and had no complaints, while another friend of mine had nothing but truoble with his PMQ.  I think the demand is decreasing as more people can afford to pay a mortgage, with PLD and pay raises??


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## Franko (12 Aug 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Anyway, this doesn't answer the original question.  I know they're tearing down a lot of PMQs in Kingston with no intention of replacing them.  A lot of them were empty for quite some time.  I guess if the demand is not there, why waste money keeping them?



There is a waiting list for the Qs in Pet, Edmonton....thus a demand. Hence my question.      

Regards


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Aug 2008)

Seems like a CF thing.  They are tearing down Q's here as well without rebuilding new ones.  They are tearing down all the empty ones with steam heating.


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## retiredgrunt45 (13 Aug 2008)

> For PMQ rent it depends on the base.  For example here are the rates for CFB Shilo:
> 
> House Type      No. Bdrms       No. Units     sq. ft.        Shelter Charge
> Single house     4                      6           1266-1882     $495 - $815
> ...



These rents aren't bad, try getting a mortgage for a 4 bedroom 1800 square foot house for $815.00 a month without a huge downpayment, good luck!

From what I can see here the rates are pretty reasonable, at least in Shilo.


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## HItorMiss (13 Aug 2008)

You're right that wouldn't be bad, except that private home would be up to code and my dishes wouldn't have frost on them in the winter on the outside facing wall....Cathcing my drift on that?


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## gwp (13 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> As pretty much everyone here in Petawawa knows there is a severe lack of PMQs for service families, as it is at so many bases across Canada.
> 
> This has been ongoing for quite some time and has been getting worse as time marches on. More recruits with families getting in because of the recruiting push etc.
> 
> ...



It may be useful to read the annual report of CFHA found here

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/info/whatsnew_e.asp

along with some of the other links.    

Also these recent articles in Maple Leaf

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/article_e.asp?id=3217

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Community/mapleleaf/article_e.asp?id=4546



> Terms PMQs/MQs have been replaced with DND Residential Housing, Residential Housing Units (RHU) referring to the individual unit, Residential Housing Sites (RHS) replacing the PMQ patch, and Residential Housing Area (RHA) used to define specifics areas within a site (i.e. sports fields, empty areas) and used primarily for custodianship purposes. Single quarters/barracks will now be known as DND Quarters in which three categories will exist—residential quarters, training quarters and transient quarters.


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## JBP (13 Aug 2008)

Wow, I guess I'm just stupid lucky... I was 'issued' a PMQ for my wife and I and it's not bad at all! It was apparently (the neighbours say) renovated like crazy for quite a few months before I moved in. New insulation, paint, doors+windows+trim+screws and all. Only thing not renovated was the ancient kitchen with barely any counter space, almost adequate cupboards and a single sink. Oh and the floors look like if they weren't replaced they've been re-finished and new carpet installed on the stairs. 

I'm in a 3 bedroom PMQ of 890sq ft (living space, so smallish) in Edmonton and with rent of $670, hardwood floors and an almost new interior basically. For me, in this area, it's a steal considering a 1 bedroom apartment can go for $1000/month! I'm happy for now, but I have a feeling the rent might possibly keep increasing each year at least somewhat. When I arrived here it was $585/month... 

PS> Same problem in Edmonton, not enough Q's, and none being built, at ALL. Which I've been wondering about for a long time...


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## Sub_Guy (13 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I was unclear in my post.  To clarify, an example.  2 files come into the CFHA office on the same day, for the last PMQ.  One is a single family, service mbr is a Pte/Cpl with a stay at home mom and 1-2 children.  The other is for a single Cpl, no dependants.  The family, IMO, should get the PMQ.  However, I do not think that people already in a PMQ should be getting bumped out if they are already occupants.



The family will get the PMQ, it is based on family size, thats the policy there is nothing discriminatory about that at all.  As for guys getting bumped out, from reading the CFHA website Pri 3 (Opportunity Occupants)  personnel could be given 30 days to vacate, at their own expense.  Pri 1 and Pri 2 occupants will not be bumped out.


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## retiredgrunt45 (13 Aug 2008)

> You're right that wouldn't be bad, except that private home would be up to code and my dishes wouldn't have frost on them in the winter on the outside facing wall....Cathcing my drift on that?



I to lived in my share of shoddy PMQ's, but the rent in the Q's were always far below what was charged on the economy. In Gagetown we had a nice row house, but in Winnipeg we lived in a "Flinstones slab" PMQ on the north side that in the winnipeg winters, we had to put plastic over our windows just to keep the heat in, but again we only paid less than 1/2 of what people paid for a 2 bedroom appt in the city. They may not be all mansions but the rent charged also compensates for that. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be kept in good repair, but that has been a problem for decades since they were built and i'm sure many have fallen into major disrepair. The military has never been able to properly manage housing and I think its time they give it over to the private sector like the Ausies have done. 

I have 3 bdrm 1500 SF home here in London ontario and I can tell you that I could rent two of these Q's for what i'm paying each month on my mortgage.


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## kratz (13 Aug 2008)

retiredgrunt45 said:
			
		

> I have 3 bdrm 1500 SF home here in London Ontario and I can tell you that I could rent two of these Q's for what I'm paying each month on my mortgage.



This is one reason why the military needs to retain a PMQ capability. Members are sent to these areas where a new sailor/soldier with a family and related debits can not yet afford some of the high (not to mention inflated) rates in some cities.  Yes,  a $30,000 to $50,000 GYE looks great on paper, but when factoring the local market and having to commute an hour to work and/or rely on car pooling or public transit on top of the commute, the drawbacks of the current PMQs are minor in the savings toward being able to purchase a home later in one's career.


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## Celticgirl (13 Aug 2008)

What about single parents? Do they qualify for PMQs? Or is a spouse actually required?  8)


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> What about single parents? Do they qualify for PMQs? Or is a spouse actually required?  8)



Yes they qualify


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## Celticgirl (13 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yes they qualify



You're quick on the draw today. Thanks for the info!


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## Franko (13 Aug 2008)

So, still no answer as to why the Qs are getting torn down and not replaced....figured someone from CFHA would come here and clear the air.

Regards


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## Bzzliteyr (13 Aug 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> What about single parents? Do they qualify for PMQs? Or is a spouse actually required?  8)



Doesn't that go back to the old saying that if the army wanted you to have a spouse, they would've signed you one on a temp loan card in the first place?

/first thing that came to mind, sorry.


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> You're quick on the draw today. Thanks for the info!



I do try to help......

RBD,

My take on CFHA and events of the last few years is that DND wants out of the landlord buisness.


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## Rodahn (13 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> So, still no answer as to why the Qs are getting torn down and not replaced....figured someone from CFHA would come here and clear the air.
> 
> Regards



I as yet have to hear from an ex coworker who now is with CFHA, however it may very well have something to do the the square footage of infrastructure on the base. Petawawa may have some capital building projects in the works that will have required other infrastructure to be demolished.


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## kratz (13 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> So, still no answer as to why the Qs are getting torn down and not replaced....figured someone from CFHA would come here and clear the air.
> 
> Regards



From the CFHA FAQ page: 



> *How is CFHA determining which houses will be renovated and which ones will be demolished or sold? *
> 
> Houses are identified for renovation or disposal on a site-by-site basis, with the goal of bettering quality of life while rightsizing the portfolio. Decisions are based on unit design, proximity to services, parking, traffic flows, existing infrastructure, and cost considerations.



I do not like this answer and will search for a more complete answer if one is available.


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## Franko (13 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> RBD,
> 
> My take on CFHA and events of the last few years is that DND wants out of the landlord buisness.



I'm coming to the same conclusion as well. 

Seen the system change from Town Site and full on support in the early 90s to CFHA and "We'll get around to it" notional support now.

Good to see that Wainwright is getting new PMQs built though. They do need it since the place has been expanded.

kratz,

I found that as well. No explanation as to why new ones are not being built to replace them. There is still a waiting list so the need is still there.

Regards


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## George Wallace (13 Aug 2008)

kratz said:
			
		

> From the CFHA FAQ page:



Rather interesting.  It would seem that they are planning for failure in Petawawa.  Tearing down PMQs at a time when the Base population has increased with a brand new unit, and other units increasing in size.


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## Franko (13 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Rather interesting.  It would seem that they are planning for failure in Petawawa.  Tearing down PMQs at a time when the Base population has increased with a brand new unit, and other units increasing in size.



Hence my question....it doesn't make any sense (I know, a government agency not making sense with it's plans... surprise, surprise)

With CSOR building up and every Regiment/ unit on this base taking in a huge influx of new troops with families in tow...you'd think that they'd be scrambling to get more property.

Regards


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## kratz (13 Aug 2008)

and yet CFHA in Borden is flooding us with customer satisfaction surveys and for the three property concerns have been here on site on that PMQ within 24hours. And if a solution has not been actioned within 72 hours the CFHA has been stressed about answering why.

Now that I know the questions are coming from Pet, I will narrow the search.


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## PMedMoe (13 Aug 2008)

I have a possible answer for the issue at hand.  Could it be that CFHA is reducing the number of houses available (and renovating others) so that they can "bump" up the rents?  You know, a supply and demand kind of thing.

I had a co-worker who moved into one of the renovated houses in Petawawa.  He was paying $800.00 per month in rent (for a 4-bedroom, 1.5 bath duplex).  Yes, the mortgage may be more expensive, but at least you will own the house when you're done.  I think of it as an investment.


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> but at least you will own the house when you're done.  I think of it as an investment.



You have to be able to afford the mortgage to think like that. Here , where i am posted, young families cannot afford the difference between PMQ rent and a mortgage. It is indeed an investment but one that alot of people here cannot afford.


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## PMedMoe (13 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You have to be able to afford the mortgage to think like that. Here , where i am posted, young families cannot afford the difference between PMQ rent and a mortgage. It is indeed an investment but one that alot of people here cannot afford.



This is true and I should have specified that if one can afford it, it is certainly worth it.


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## Bzzliteyr (13 Aug 2008)

Hence why I am kind of kicking myself in the butt for not having forced myself to buy ten years ago.  I have been in my Q for that long and if I calculate (very quickly) it looks like I burned almost $60 000 that I could have put in to a house.. GRR.

Mind you, when I got to Gagetown in 97, I couldn't even afford the rent back then and had to put a memo in to have it dropped for my pay level.. how things have changed!!


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## smale436 (22 Aug 2008)

Here in Cold Lake there have been at least two dozen houses that have been trucked out and now sit in a farmer's field. They were reportedly sold to the town for a $1.00 but I don't know the validity of that statement. I have seen some moved into the town proper onto vacant lots. CFHA said that they had been declared surplus three years ago and it has taken until now to move them. They also said that it had to do with the underground utilities being not up to snuff to service the houses. Another house had irreparable mould due to its occupant being gone for a month while the water heater exploded during the winter. 
            I live in a PMQ with a roommate. We are over 25, don't party much, and look after our yard so I take offence the "frat boy/party house" comment which is out of line in my opinion. Sorry to any people who have had to deal with that, but on the other side of the coin, the guy across the street from me with three kids hasn't cut his grass in a month and has two derelict vehicles on blocks in his yard. It is not just singles living on base causing the problems. 
            I applied for one when I found out I was entitled to one. If CL had quarters that were not shared rooms, I would have "lived in". But one tires of drunks coming in at all hours whooping it up, having to walk down the hall to take a leak, and living in a room smaller than my PMQ's garage. And I "sucked that up" during two years in Borden so I figured why not take advantage of living a real life. The fact is only one single person has the Q in their name so regardless of how many people are living with them, they are only entitled to a 2 BR, so it is not like they are taking up space in a Q that someone with 2 or more kids could move into. They're not. I was worried about having to vacate and CFHA said as of April 1 2007 "family of one" is a recognized status due to the fact that someone took CFHA to the supreme court (and won) on the grounds of discrimination. And married people don't get priority anymore. The housing office here stated that if a single applied the day before a married couple with no kids for a housing unit of equal entitlement, the single would get first dibs. The only people who as of now can be asked to vacate are the opportunity occupants such as commissionaires, NPF, or the two RCMP officers who share a PMQ a few doors over from me. Speaking of RCMP, there are also a few living in the shacks (Maple Flag Inn) in Cold Lake as well. Right now CL has one barrack for the Pte/Cpl's (shared rooms) which is almost full. There are two other buildings that house transients, cadets, and Maple Flag visitors. So until the grand plan they have talked about here regarding new barracks comes to fruition, I see the current trends in the PMQs continuing. Realistically, the big waiting list most people talk about is people already in shacks or in town who want to move to a Q for whatever reason. They already have a place to live. There are still many empty houses here. For example, I moved in to mine in April and the previous occupant moved out last August. 

Just my $0.02.  Thanks for listening.


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## armyvern (22 Aug 2008)

And here,

All this time I thought that "Family of one" ruling was regarding the divorced guy who had visitation rights with his son who was denied a PMQ based upon the fact that he was posted to his location alone. Ergo, they refused him a Q, a fight he won --- based on the fact that he may currently be a family of "one", but for a few weeks a year, he was a "family of two" and needed some place to be able to live where he could have his son live with him during those periods.


----------



## smale436 (22 Aug 2008)

That is another situation that I had not thought of. But would he not have been entitled regardless? I thought if you had a visitation/custody agreement, regardless of how frequent or infrequent said children visit their father, you can get into a Q no problem.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> That is another situation that I had not thought of. But would he not have been entitled regardless? I thought if you had a visitation/custody agreement, regardless of how frequent or infrequent said children visit their father, you can get into a Q no problem.



It didn't used to be that way.  If your kids didn't qualify as a dependent under the CF definition, they would not be listed on your MPRR as a dependent and you were not entitled to a PMQ.


----------



## armyvern (22 Aug 2008)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> That is another situation that I had not thought of. But would he not have been entitled regardless? I thought if you had a visitation/custody agreement, regardless of how frequent or infrequent said children visit their father, you can get into a Q no problem.



Perhaps his situation is what caused that current policy? 

Just remember that the "M" in PMQ still stands for "married", and while Cold Lake obviously can afford to have singles moved into theirs (as you note the number of empty Qs), that that is not the situation on all bases --- and that on other bases where PMQs are in high demand ... persons with dependants have priority for those PMQs even before a single guy who may have asked first (he still has the singles quarters he can live in - they don't).


----------



## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

You know I would love to be able to see what life is like in the PMQ's at Borden, or ANYWHERE for that matter  :skull:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> You know I would love to be able to see what life is like in the PMQ's at Borden, or ANYWHERE for that matter  :skull:



Taking a look here is a start.  On the left, look at Housing Locations.


----------



## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

Thanks for the link, I actually saw those sites quite some time ago, but they do have allot of important info on them for other people interested   I still want to see pictures of what the housing is like though. Like a real estate listing type thing


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

Maybe some folks who live in the Qs (Borden in particular) will be nice enough to snap some pics and send them your way?  I can get some of the Shearwater upper and lower base but...that won't matter to you.


----------



## aesop081 (22 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It didn't used to be that way.  If your kids didn't qualify as a dependent under the CF definition, they would not be listed on your MPRR as a dependent and you were not entitled to a PMQ.



I was refused a PMQ at 2 bases (YZX and YQQ) because, although i have joint custody of my kids, they are not with me the majority of the time ( ex is listed as primary caregiver on divorce papers). 

Yes, my kids are on my MPRR as dependants.......


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## smale436 (22 Aug 2008)

While in the process of applying for mine, the people at CFHA emailed me photos of the interior and exterior of a housing unit with the same layout (not the actual house) Perhaps they will do that for you there if you ask. (I didn't) Or if you know someone who can drive down and snap some pics.


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## armyvern (22 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I was refused a PMQ at 2 bases (YZX and YQQ) because, although i have joint custody of my kids, they are not with me the majority of the time ( ex is listed as primary caregiver on divorce papers).
> 
> Yes, my kids are on my MPRR as dependants.......



And THAT is exactly what the "Family of One" ruling was intended to prevent.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I was refused a PMQ at 2 bases (YZX and YQQ) because, although i have joint custody of my kids, they are not with me the majority of the time ( ex is listed as primary caregiver on divorce papers).
> 
> Yes, my kids are on my MPRR as dependants.......



That must have been under the 'old' rules, and the Qs must have been full?


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## aesop081 (22 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> and the Qs must have been full?



Nope.........not by a long shot ( well, in YZX anyways)


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nope.........not by a long shot ( well, in YZX anyways)



Just another reason to hate the place  8)


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## CountDC (22 Aug 2008)

Zip said:
			
		

> Sorry, with Pte Recruits earning $30,000/year and Cpl/Mcpl earning $50,000 a year why the hell should DND provide ANY accommodations?  The private sector will provide what it is in their best interests to provide.  As long as DND undercuts private rentals then there will be a shortage of private rentals.  And an offshoot of a private system is that there will probably be more jobs for dependants.



 DND does not undercut private rentals anymore. PMQ rentals are set based on the local comparable rents.  When DND did undercut I doubt it caused a shortage of private rentals, I would even guess that it actually would have worked the opposite and made a surplus of private rentals. Now as far as depending on the local private sector - if I had to do that I would either be living in my car or at best in a rat invested hole costing $500 more a month. Neither one is very appealing with a family - I prefer my baby not to sleep with the rats and 6 sleeping in a car is cramped. 

For those that are going to jump on the "you say PMQ rental set based on local rents then say it would cost $500 more" the PMQ is set on the rents in the area, the $500 more rat hole is in another part of town that has jacked rent to take advantage of immigrants, people without a perfect credit history and/or people with large families unable to get into other places.

You are right that the private sector will provide what is in their best interest - not DNDs. Do you really think that if you were to say we are closing Shearwater Q's that there would be a sudden influx of houses/apartments in the area? I would wager that instead you would see every landlord in Halifax jacking the rent up in prep for all the military mbrs looking for places and the price of housing to jump as people figure they can take advantage of the sudden influx of buyers. Although I was not involved in the Shannon Park shut down I was told by some I knew living there that this is the way it appeared to them - rent and purchase prices went up as closer day got closer.

Can't see one way whatsoever that a private system computes into jobs for dependants.


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## muffin (22 Aug 2008)

I know in Kingston, there is not a huge demand for Q's. I think most live offsite these days. 

They also sold off some "trailerpark -like" housing earlier in the year, which let some people live on the base and own the "home".

Maybe people didn't want to stay in the Q's here after their solution to the asbestos was to "board it up" in the attics. Who knows... but there are a lot of public servants living in the Q's as well - and my colleague just informed me she knows a girl who works at Timmies who was just approved a PMQ/RHU whatever they are called today.

Kingston also has the appartments, which are sort of larger than barracks, and smaller than a Q. Back in 97-98 (ish) they were is such dire need for Q's that they were kicking Reservists out of the Barracks and putting families with 2 children in the appartments. Times have certianly changed!


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> You are right that the private sector will provide what is in their best interest - not DNDs. Do you really think that if you were to say we are closing Shearwater Q's that there would be a sudden influx of houses/apartments in the area? I would wager that instead you would see every landlord in Halifax jacking the rent up in prep for all the military mbrs looking for places and the price of housing to jump as people figure they can take advantage of the sudden influx of buyers. Although I was not involved in the Shannon Park shut down I was told by some I knew living there that this is the way it appeared to them - rent and purchase prices went up as closer day got closer.
> 
> Can't see one way whatsoever that a private system computes into jobs for dependants.


How can garbage like that be allowed to take place? Here in Quebec it is ILLEGAL to raise rents more than a slight percentage when a new tenant moves in. Only exceptions to the rule is if the place has been vacant for at least 1 year, and the landlord has to provide substantial proof of major renovations


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> How can garbage like that be allowed to take place? Here in Quebec it is ILLEGAL to raise rents more than a slight percentage when a new tenant moves in. Only exceptions to the rule is if the place has been vacant for at least 1 year, and the landlord has to provide substantial proof of major renovations



It is the same way in NS.  If the landlord is going to raise the rent (which there is a limit of what % he/she can per annum), the tenant must be given 3 months notice.  This is because the tenant is required to give a landlord 3 months notice of intent to vacate.  I know this is for people who are already in a lease, I am not 100% sure how it works if you are a new tenant.


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## Franko (22 Aug 2008)

Troops...if you want to talk about TPB, take it to Radio Chatter.

Back on topic.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## muffin (22 Aug 2008)

I think the answer to the original question might be found here:

http://www.ceaa.gc.ca/052/details-eng.cfm?pid=27824

Project Description
(as posted in the Notice of Commencement)
The Canadian Forces Housing Agency-an Agency of the Department of National Defence-has declared 86 surplus row house married quarter units at CFB Petawawa. Using the 3R disposal approach, the project will encompass the removal of hazardous materials, deconstruction of the selected surplus units and removal of the building, foundations and walkways. Laterals will be capped at the curb stop or main. Excavations will be backfilled to grade and parking lots will be enlarged and fenced areas for refuse containers installed. The remainder of the property will be restored by seeding to match the surrounding area. A full Designated Substances Survey will be conducted for each individual unit as part of the project. This disposal project will reduce congestion for parking and snow clearing in the row house areas.

The Environmental assesment was done in 07 - looks like th "3R" part by defence contractors has begun. 

3R : http://www.dcc-cdc.gc.ca/english/pr_deconstruction.html 

Although it does look like they are fixing some up:
http://www.ceaa.gc.ca/052/details-eng.cfm?pid=25040

Project Description
(as posted in the Notice of Commencement)
As part of their Recapitalization Program, the Canadian Forces Housing Agency (CFHA) intends to renovate 21 housing units at CFB Petawawa. The units selected for rejuvenation comprise the following styles: 1A (2 units), 21/21R (3 units), JJ (10 units) and K/KK/KK54C (6 units). For styles 1A, 21, 21R, KK and two of the four KK54C units, the living space will be increased by approximately 20%. The other units will not have increases to existing living space. The foundations of some units will be excavated to add perimeter drains. Some water and sewer laterals will also be replaced. A full Designated Substances Survey will be conducted for each individual unit as part of the project. The units are sound and most units have had some life-cycle improvements. Currently, functional space in the units is limited and these retrofits will improve their suitability for CF families, bringing them to a contemporary and more efficient standard and extending their useful life. It is expected that major renovations to these units will reduce overall maintenance costs and extend their useful life by at least 20 years.

(the contract tender for these renovations closed July 10th)
http://www.dgmarket.com/eproc/np-notice.do?noticeId=2730938

CFHA reasoning :
http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/info/faq_mrd_e.asp#q3

specifically:
*What is the Rationalization Program?*

The Rationalization Program is a housing portfolio renewal program comprising disposals, renovation, demolition, new construction and new acquisition. It addresses both the size and the condition of the portfolio. Its goal is to develop and maintain a sustainable housing portfolio that meets the housing needs of CF families and is responsive to evolving and cyclical change.

*How is CFHA determining which houses will be renovated and which ones will be demolished or sold?*

Houses are identified for renovation or disposal on a site-by-site basis, with the goal of bettering quality of life while rightsizing the portfolio. Decisions are based on unit design, proximity to services, parking, traffic flows, existing infrastructure, and cost considerations.

*How can you be sure that the houses being disposed will not be needed down the road?*

CFHA performs a Housing Requirement Study to determine CF members’ housing needs at Bases and Wings across Canada. The Housing Requirement Study provides a long-term projection based on trends within the local real-estate market and the characteristics of the CF population at that site. Analysis takes into account changes to requirement that may occur because of anticipated changes in the markets or in the number of CF members being posted at a given site. 


also:
http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/cfhahrp/backgrounder_e.asp


The "Dream" :
http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/info/pubs/accom2020-en.pdf


*A Quote:*
DND is committed to ensuring that CF members are
able to secure accommodation which is suitable to personal circumstances,
in a timely fashion and at any location where duty demands.
DND will pursue policies, plans and programs which encourage CF
members to secure accommodation in the private sector marketplace
in order to maximize freedom of choice. In those instances where the
private sector marketplace cannot meet the needs of the CF member,
DND will support Crown intervention.
DND Accommodation Policy — 14 June 1999
http://www.dnd.ca/qol/engraph/accom_policy_e.asp


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## CountDC (22 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It is the same way in NS.  If the landlord is going to raise the rent (which there is a limit of what % he/she can per annum), the tenant must be given 3 months notice.  This is because the tenant is required to give a landlord 3 months notice of intent to vacate.  I know this is for people who are already in a lease, I am not 100% sure how it works if you are a new tenant.



According to the Nova Scotia Residential Tenancy Act http://www.canlii.org/ns/laws/sta/r1989c.401/20051216/whole.html (which many feel should be the Landlord Act) they must give 4 months notice of an increase and can only do it once in a 12 month period on a yearly lease. I had some dealing with them over a landlord a few years back and some things came out. A landlord can increase the rent on your unit without increasing the rent on everyones without justifying it to you.  If you want to fight the onus is on you to proof that it was done for a malicious reason such as trying to force you out because of your colour, religion, etc. That is also when I was reminded that there is no restriction on how much they can increase it. You can of course fight it with the board but again most consider the board in favour of the landlord not the tenant (myself I was happy with the board result I had). If the unit is empty or is going to become empty the landlord can set whatever price s/he wants for any new tenants. The % limit you refer to was removed when they brought out this act in 89 - I remember a lot of us were not happy when they took the cap off.

Hopefully with such a situation they will not be tearing down Q's in Shearwater next.


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## Adamant (22 Aug 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Hopefully with such a situation they will not be tearing down Q's in Shearwater next.



I don't think so.  I know they are rebuilding a bunch on the lower side.  Not too sure about the upper Base  Q's


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

Adamant said:
			
		

> I don't think so.  I know they are rebuilding a bunch on the lower side.  Not too sure about the upper Base  Q's



They have done some on the upper patch as well.


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## Gunnie (25 Aug 2008)

Hey, I'm interested in moving to the PMQ with my boyfriend, who's been in 1rcr for a little more than a year...can anybody tell me the application process, and wether or not there is a waiting list? I currently live 4 hours away from him, and neither of us can afford a downpayment on an actual home outside of base...

Any input is welcome! Thank you in advance
cheers


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## axeman (25 Aug 2008)

as a boyfriend/girlfriend you do not qualify for PMQ housing.  you have to be common law 1 yr, married or have a child as i understand it .


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## fire_guy686 (25 Aug 2008)

axeman said:
			
		

> as a boyfriend/girlfriend you do not qualify for PMQ housing.  you have to be common law 1 yr, married or have a child as i understand it .



Sure they qualify. I know plenty of single people who have PMQ's so there is no reason a non married couple can't get one. I think it depends on the availability of PMQ's on that paticular base.


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## kincanucks (25 Aug 2008)

MAMS_933 said:
			
		

> Sure they qualify. I know plenty of single people who have PMQ's so there is no reason a non married couple can't get one. I think it depends on the availability of PMQ's on that paticular base.



So you know plenty of single people who have their own PMQ all by themselves and not sharing with someone else?  Might make for an uncomfortable situation if someone wanted to bring their girlfriend or boyfriend to live with them if they were sharing a PMQ with others.  So in order for this particular couple to get a PMQ for just themselves they would need to either common law or married?

I have sent the following query to CFHA:

Initial and continued occupancy of married quarters is subject to certain criteria.  (Taken from your Conditions of Occupancy)

What criteria must be met by a member in order to get a MQ?


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## kratz (25 Aug 2008)

As mentioned in another thread, "Why are PMQs being torn down?" , someone posted that names, titles and definitions for accommodations have changed in recent years. PMQs, SQs ect... all have new identifiers IAW DAOD 5024. One of the key references in the DAOD is only accessable through the intranet, so someone in the other thread posted a link to the story announcing these changes in the Personnel Newsletter in 2007.

The key change to answer the question in the above post is that yes, single people can and are now able to secure residences that used to be called PMQs. The quote from the news letter is:



> The allocation of DND Living Accommodations will fall solely to the CF Housing Agency (CFHA). Allocation will be based on household size, on a first come, first served basis. So, except for Designated Houses, *your position, rank and marital status will not be used to determine where you are on the waiting list, nor will these determine the housing allocated to you.*


  Bold section added by me.


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## Disenchantedsailor (25 Aug 2008)

based upon household size,    that basically nullfies the marital status disclaimer, because still the member with 4 dependants is now at the top of the list for a 4 bed room RQ over the single member with none. And if we're still talking about the member with a girlfriend ie - not a dependant, he is still a 1 person household on the same list as all of the 3, 4, 5 person households


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## kratz (25 Aug 2008)

But if that single person walks into CFHA and requests a two room duplex and completes the paperwork one day before a family of three, the single person will most likely get it becasue the refence also states, "on a first come, first serve basis".


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## Disenchantedsailor (25 Aug 2008)

knowing its not in the ref b ut just some food for thought,  the same logic that came up with that policy is the same logic that dictates I should be able to move my family into single quarters.  Again just thinkin'


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## aesop081 (25 Aug 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> knowing its not in the ref b ut just some food for thought,  the same logic that came up with that policy is the same logic that dictates I should be able to move my family into single quarters.  Again just thinkin'



Single quarters are not managed by CFHA.


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## Disenchantedsailor (25 Aug 2008)

Agreed I was just trying to point out the flawed logic involved.


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## armywife/cadetmom (2 Sep 2008)

We were in Pet this summer and saw what you are talking about with regards to the demolition.  reading the post by Muffin...it makes sense.  although they are removing and back filling... they may be building elsewhere eventually for ease of congestion and parking and snow removal issues.  We also saw some renovated Q's and they look really nice!  One thing that caught my attention was basing projections of need on the realestate market...I know not much is moving here because of the economy, so basing a need for housing on the fact that no one is buying, and  lots for sale wouldnt make sense.

as for the 'who should get debate'... IMHO

Firstly: I think they should build more apartments for singles/ young families of 2 who dont want to live in shacks. Now, im not saying this because they shouldnt have a house, but because an apartment would mean no grounds to keep up while contending with a busy schedual, more affordable then a house, more space and comfort then shacks but less unnecessary space to have to heat then a house.

Secondly: Married VS Single people.... i do side with Married with Children having first dibs.  I have had a number of friends end up on wait lists and dealing with being separated because of wait-lists. Its hard on the children, and the wife (especially those with new babies).  Thats one thing i havent seen mentioned in all the debate of who should get Q's.  Yes, we deal with DH's being away on course, or overseas regularly, but when they are around, its nice to be with them.

Personally: from a wives perspective; living on base means more community support.  The member is surrounded with people in 'the life'  at work, they have some one to talk to about all things CF related.  Most 'Civvies' dont understand our lifestyle, so being surrounded by neighbours who 'dont get it', or worse, dont support our troops, can be unbearable, which is another reason to live on base rather then buying.  Not to mention the safety we feel living on Base when our DH's are away.  Also, since there are a number of wives who dont drive , or their DH's take the car to work, being able to walk to places like the MFRC, rec centre, ect is also important.



Everyones points are valid, the CF is growing, many Q's need severe overhauls, and there is a need for more housing.  Q's are more affordable then the going rent, not everyone can get a Mortgage, or are willing to buy, only to have to try and sell 2,3,5 years down the road, singles shouldnt have to be stuffed into shacks just because they are single, and families shouldnt have to be split up.


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## Franko (2 Sep 2008)

armywife/cadetmom said:
			
		

> We were in Pet this summer and saw what you are talking about with regards to the demolition.  reading the post by Muffin...it makes sense.  although they are removing and back filling... they may be building elsewhere eventually for ease of congestion and parking and snow removal issues.  *We also saw some renovated Q's and they look really nice!*



Those were renovated before I first got here....over 8 years ago. 

They haven't done any since and it's really only the outside that was done with the addition of peaked overhangs. 

I saw one today being ripped down on the North side as well, a 4 bedroom.

Regards


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## armywife/cadetmom (2 Sep 2008)

this one doesnt look 8 years old..i may be mistaken...but it looked like a few were being reno'd into the same style...







(i have resized this in my image file, but at the moment it apears to be posting large....)


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## Franko (2 Sep 2008)

armywife/cadetmom said:
			
		

> this one doesnt look 8 years old..i may be mistaken...but it looked like a few were being reno'd into the same style...



Is that in Pet?

Regards


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## armywife/cadetmom (2 Sep 2008)

yes it is, take this August, North Side.


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## Franko (2 Sep 2008)

armywife/cadetmom said:
			
		

> yes it is, take this August, North Side.



Well I am somewhat impressed that _some_ of the monies garnered through rental fees is actually being put back into some of the Qs.

Too bad they can't fix the Qs on the South side with faulty windows, doors, electrical plugs, insulation etc. 

Ever see ice come through a plug in the winter? Glad it's not my Q.

Regards


----------



## armywife/cadetmom (2 Sep 2008)

i agree, the South Side was almost scary looking, yet the North Side had quite a bit of renovating going on.

But its like that here in Borden aswell...  there are PMQ's being stripped and redone all nice, and then there are places like mine just needing minor repair.  We were told they wont redo the insulation and such as they intend to demolish my street eventually...Well, we are here for another 4 years unless my DH gets what he is after, which is highly likely..inwhich We might get one of those nice Petawawa Q's  ;D.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Sep 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Too bad they can't fix the Qs on the South side with faulty windows, doors, electrical plugs, insulation etc.
> 
> Ever see ice come through a plug in the winter? Glad it's not my Q.


I used to be able to keep beer in the cupboard in the winter. Frost on the wall in the cupboard of the Q's north side of my kitchen ;D


----------



## Franko (2 Sep 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I used to be able to keep beer in the cupboard in the winter. Frost on the wall in the cupboard of the Q's north side of my kitchen ;D



Some are still like that.      

Regards


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (12 Dec 2008)

Can anyone give me any info on the reno'd 4 bedrroms in Shilo,   I know they started them over the summer,   but no that my phase trg is over I'm posted back to the west and moving into a place on Woolwich.  Again any info would be great, not to mention put the wife's mind at ease,   anybody bored with a camera,  well lets just say there may be something cold and bubbly in your future.


----------



## armyvern (12 Dec 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Can anyone give me any info on the reno'd 4 bedrroms in Shilo,   I know they started them over the summer,   but no that my phase trg is over I'm posted back to the west and moving into a place on Woolwich.  Again any info would be great, not to mention put the wife's mind at ease,   anybody bored with a camera,  well lets just say there may be something cold and bubbly in your future.



Geez, does that mean you're not going to be at Griffins for me to harass for a while?


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (12 Dec 2008)

Nope,     I'm back in Victoria attempting to orchestrate an incredibly boggled move,   funny thing the CM posted me to Gagetown 3 Days before the end of of the course and then out to Shilo the same day, so as far as IRP is concerned I'm leaving from NB eventhough DF&E are in Victoria.   I think my comrade in crime was in Winnipeg last night so he won't be around either


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Dec 2008)

They are really nice on the inside and cost about $200 more then one that hasn't been done.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (12 Dec 2008)

I'm thinking worth the extra 200, I'm on a 4 bedroom duplex in Esquimalt that hasnt been done yet,   15 layers of paint on the wall and all.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Dec 2008)

If I were moving in brand new I probably would as well


----------



## Springroll (1 Jan 2009)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> I'm thinking worth the extra 200, I'm on a 4 bedroom duplex in Esquimalt that hasnt been done yet,   15 layers of paint on the wall and all.



Are you on the wait list for a 4bdrm duplex or you are already in one?
I am vacating mine in Work Point at the end of January...
Scored a good deal on new construction in Sooke and can't justify paying rent to someone else when I can spend $250 more and own.


----------



## kratz (3 Jan 2009)

We received our notice in the mail yesterday and were more than suprised to find that our rent is being reduced by $20 per month starting this April.


----------



## smale436 (3 Jan 2009)

Here in Cold Lake I will have a $100/month increase as of April 1 on my 1 1/2 storey duplex with garage (New rate $795 + $38.60 water/sewer charge) Hopefully my two roommates stick around long enough for me to amass a nice condo downpayment. I will admit I have had nothing but good service from CFHA though when it comes to work orders, etc.


----------



## Springroll (3 Jan 2009)

I just got my yesterday, as well...another $100 increase!!
Guess that makes it only a $150 more to have a mortgage then to rent  

For the most part, CFHA has been pretty good about some stuff, but I have been trying to get them in my house since before I moved in to fix the carpetting on the stairs...and only now, after I gave notice, are they coming in to do the work! Only took a year and a half!

Meh, no more having to deal with them in less than 2 weeks!


----------



## Griswald DME (5 Jan 2009)

Our mortgage is less than half the rental rates of the PMQ's here, and our house is larger and newer.  My wife would love to live in the PMQ's but we simply can't afford it.


----------



## 421_434_226 (5 Jan 2009)

Our mortgage has always been slightly less then the PMQ rates here, although when you add taxes and the water bill it is around $250 a month more but when you take into consideration that it is bigger and we pay less for heat it just about breaks even. Not to mention that as a rule when you sell you normally get some back if not an out and out profit.


----------



## annemarielyman (5 Jan 2009)

I'm trying to get a jump on watching the housing market in the Borden area. We are being posted in 2010 and rumors are that it will be Borden (not that I believe anything until we get the posting message). We will have to sell our in Petawawa area and I am very concerned by what I have seen so far with regards to pricing. Are there any less expensive areas near the Borden area??


----------



## navymich (5 Jan 2009)

I was really shocked when hubby told me that our increase this year was only $24!!  And we still haven't reached the "appraised" amount.  

We pay a fair bit, but it is for a 4 bedroom single, with a detached garage.  To me, it is worth the price for the convenience of living on base.  I am a shift worker and it is so nice to be able to walk to and from work, especially during the crazy winter weather.  And hubby is duty tech quite often, so it's nice for him not having to constantly drive back and forth when he gets called in.


----------



## CountDC (5 Jan 2009)

Griswald said:
			
		

> Our mortgage is less than half the rental rates of the PMQ's here, and our house is larger and newer.  My wife would love to live in the PMQ's but we simply can't afford it.



ok - I'll bite as no one else has.

Why the he and two hockey sticks would your wife wan't to live in Q's when you have a deal like that??


----------



## smale436 (5 Jan 2009)

Surely he was being sarcastic, given how many posts I have seen here that say "my wife would love to GET OUT of the Q's, but we can't afford it."  ;D


----------



## CountDC (5 Jan 2009)

I'm hoping that is the case but without something indicating it not sure, some people are strange - like me. I actually picked Disney Land for a posting from the pink palace.


----------



## smale436 (5 Jan 2009)

Where is this infamous pink palace anyway???


----------



## CountDC (6 Jan 2009)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> Where is this infamous pink palace anyway???



Stadacona Halifax - for some reason they used pink stones on the outside of the HQ so it became known as the Pink Palace.  Not supposed to refer to it as that as someone didn't like it but it is the easiest way to give directions to the place as it is the only pink building. Enter main gate, turn right, look for pink building on your right.


----------



## Griswald DME (6 Jan 2009)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> Surely he was being sarcastic, given how many posts I have seen here that say "my wife would love to GET OUT of the Q's, but we can't afford it."  ;D



No, no.. she's dead serious.  Loneliness during the day because a real problem for her when she was at home with a baby and started getting some cabin fever in mid-February and it's -45 with over a foot of white on the ground and unable to access any of the base ammenities.

My wife realizes the best thing for us financially is to own, but she still says "I wish we lived closer to base" once in a while.


----------



## NCRCrow (7 Jan 2009)

The Pink Palace is now on top of the old Stadacona "Haunted" Hospital


----------



## norris (12 Jan 2009)

Is there a difference between Officer married housing and NCM married housing?


----------



## aesop081 (12 Jan 2009)

norris said:
			
		

> Is there a difference between Officer married housing and NCM married housing?



No.


----------



## Jadzia (15 Jan 2009)

Hi,

We're considering asking for a PMQ in Kingston.  

From the pricing list, it seems like it's still cheaper than an house (we're looking at 4 bedrooms, and would ask for something over 1300 pi²).  Listing say about 900$/month.  The houses we'll looking for would give us a mortgage payment about 1500$/month... if we add the taxes, it's closer to 2000$/month.

I'm fully aware that if we do buy an house, we would get something of higher quality (hardwood floor, garage, basement, 2+ bathrooms, etc).   However, since we'll be there for 1-2 years (my husband is training there), we may accept the trade off to be able to get more money on the side for our next home.

I also know it is far from certain we could get one of these house, since they are fewer of the bigger houses.  However, we need a minimum of 3, since my husband as a daugther and I need a closed office (working from home).

Couple of questions:

1- First comments on that thread aren't really positive, but then again, date back to 2003 ?  Is the situation still the same ?

2- I will be working from home.  Does the military takes that into account when deciding who gets what ?  My guess is no, but if I'm wrong, please let me know.

3- Is the insulation still has bad, or does it vary from house to house ?  Working from home, I don't want to be cold 24h a day !

Thanks


----------



## PPCLI Guy (15 Jan 2009)

norris said:
			
		

> Is there a difference between Officer married housing and NCM married housing?



Yes.  One has an officer living in it, and the other doesn't.


----------



## George Wallace (15 Jan 2009)

Jadzia said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> We're considering asking for a PMQ in Kingston.
> 
> ...



I was posted to Kingston for two years.  The waiting list for a PMQ was two years long.  I was forced to follow the advice I got before I joined the CF:  "Buy a house everytime you are Posted and when you retire you will own a house." 

Look at these topics:

Entering the CF and YOUR Money.... 

Mortgage Interest Rate Buy Down

There are other topics that can give you ideas of what to do, if you can figure out the keywords that will lead you to them in a SEARCH.


----------



## Sub_Guy (15 Jan 2009)

Jadzia said:
			
		

> From the pricing list, it seems like it's still cheaper than an house (we're looking at 4 bedrooms, and would ask for something over 1300 pi²).  Listing say about 900$/month.  The houses we'll looking for would give us a mortgage payment about 1500$/month... if we add the taxes, it's closer to 2000$/month.



Don't forget to throw in maintenance.


----------



## norris (15 Jan 2009)

Who gets a "Designated House"--senior officers?  commandant?  chaplains?


----------



## 2 Cdo (15 Jan 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I was posted to Kingston for two years.  The waiting list for a PMQ was two years long.  I was forced to follow the advice I got before I joined the CF:  "Buy a house everytime you are Posted and when you retire you will own a house."
> 
> Look at these topics:
> 
> ...



George I was posted to Kingston in 02 and had zero wait for a PMQ with a basement! That being said I agree with your idea of purchasing a home. It may look like more money being spent but you will start building equity and after 20+ years you would more than likely find yourself mortage free. 

I was only in the Kingston Q's for a short period but have this to offer you. Cosmetically my Q looked amazing comared to what I expected. Then it turned to winter and I had a wind tunnel running through the house effectively lowering the inside temperature to match the outside! You will pay the difference in utilities, and it will not be cheap. Buy the house, it will actually be cheaper in the long run.


----------



## Jadzia (15 Jan 2009)

Thanks for the input.

The idea of PMQ was only for that posting, since we know it's a very short period, the 2 years being a maximum.

Totally agree that if someone takes the PMQ, he won't get any equity.  Trouble in most case is that when we have more money available, we all tend to spend more, not to save it aside.  If someone save the difference, the equation isn't the same.

Another issue is that although the housing price won't decrease everywhere in Canada, increase expectancy until the end of 2010 are very low (close to 0% in fact).  Increasing house value is usually a huge benefit, since it's very hard to get the same investment return elsewhere.  

The basic idea we had was to calculate the difference between what we would put on a house and the one on PMQ (even with the utilities being higher in PMQ, we would still be able to free up to 600$ a month) and put that aside.  
Agreed, we wouldn't gain much investment revenue out of it but it's still good money.

Anyways, we are far from having decided yet.  

Thanks again


----------



## George Wallace (15 Jan 2009)

Jadzia said:
			
		

> Thanks for the input.
> 
> The idea of PMQ was only for that posting, since we know it's a very short period, the 2 years being a maximum.
> 
> ...



Jadzia

You can look at it another way too.  Paying a mortgage and having to "ownership" of your home is a lot different than paying a rent that only pays off someone else's mortgage.  Even with a 0% increase, you will in a way be saving in your investment in the home.  DND will pay your Legal, Realtor and Moving expenses and when you sell your home, even if it is for the same as what you paid for it, that money goes back into your pocket.  If you live in a PMQ, then you get no money back on you posting for the PMQ; you only get your Moving expenses.


----------



## rytel (30 Jan 2009)

Has anyone had experience taking a PMQ for a period as short as 3 months?  

I'm at CFB Gagetown at the moment, in the shacks.  About to start a course (CAP), which will finish the last week of April.  We've been told that the next course (Arty 1.1) will be held in either Petawawa or Shilo from May to August, due to a lack of instructors here over the summer.  After that, it's back to Gagetown for Arty 1.2, from September to December. Then, it's back to Pet or Shilo to my regiment (fingers are crossed for Pet), at which point we'll buy a house.

It's the 3 months from May to August that are making things complicated... my wife is pregnant with our first child, due on 30 June ... and we'd really like to be living in the same city for that!

My plan right now is to try to get into a PMQ for those 3 months, then move back to Gagetown in a PMQ for another 3 months, then finally go to regiment for a longer posting.  I'm starting the application processes for both Shilo and Petawawa, with the intent to cancel whichever I don't get sent to.  Hopefully I get more than a week's notice.

Any ideas on other options to pursue for those two 3 month periods?


----------



## kincanucks (30 Jan 2009)

rytel said:
			
		

> Has anyone had experience taking a PMQ for a period as short as 3 months?
> 
> I'm at CFB Gagetown at the moment, in the shacks.  About to start a course (CAP), which will finish the last week of April.  We've been told that the next course (Arty 1.1) will be held in either Petawawa or Shilo from May to August, due to a lack of instructors here over the summer.  After that, it's back to Gagetown for Arty 1.2, from September to December. Then, it's back to Pet or Shilo to my regiment (fingers are crossed for Pet), at which point we'll buy a house.
> 
> ...



If I am reading this right you are going to move your wife to Petawawa and then back to Gagetown at your own expense because I don't see you getting posted to Petawawa for a three month course?  As for the PMQ idea, it sounds good if you can swing it.


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## rytel (30 Jan 2009)

Correct, it will be at my own expense.  I might be able to swing a paid for move back to Gagetown... but either way I'm just towing a uhaul trailer behind my car.  Mileage will just about cover that.

I called up CFHA in Pet and they mentioned putting us up in a motel if no PMQs were available.


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## Thompson87 (2 Feb 2009)

Hi, I will be applying very soon to the Army, most likely for the Infantry position. After all the training, depending on where I am posted, what are my options for housing? I've been looking at some of your posts throughout this topic and have noticed most people are not too happy about their living situations. 

If I could get a list of the options for living and the positives and negatives of them including- costs, quality of living e.c.t. , for single personnel, people with families, e.ct.,  that would be greatly appreciated and would help me and others decide on what options would be best for us. 


Cheers my fellow Canadians


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## Hotwire (5 Feb 2009)

Okay, has any one thought about fighting CFHA on their Rent raises? Iv delt with tennant law before and  $100 a year or more is illigal in most places, yet CFHA gets away with it? How?

My kick in the B@ll's comes like this :

PMQ raise : $130
PLD Drop : $186

How does that work? I mean the PLD is to offset the Cost of living right? so how can they drop it yet allow CFHA to raise the rent ? so needless to say, my PMQ Rent is effrectively going from $500 p/mth to almost $700, in one year!!!


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## PuckChaser (5 Feb 2009)

I think you may be SOL, at least in Quebec: http://www.checkfirstonline.com/rent_increases.htm Says that Quebec landlords can increase their rent by whatever they want when they want as long as the lease is over 12 months, as long as they give you notice.

I just got myself a 3 bedroom Single house in Kingston, PMQ and am only paying $915 a month plus utilities. My apartment downtown cost $885 utilities included, for basically half the square footage. Its not quite the same as owning a house, but with the housing prices in Kingston right now, I'd need a big downpayment to get something half decent and semi-close to the base.


----------



## Hotwire (5 Feb 2009)

Well here I can get a decent apartment for about $650 only about a 10 min drive from base. I really wonder where they get the criteria for their Upping the rent to local market value.. My PMQ is litteraly falling appart, and when I had them come look at the water damage in the roof's.. yes multiple places in my pmq have water damage.. they told me its normal for an older PMQ.... NORMAL!!!

Iv called them to come back... yet they tell me either "They will send someone out ASAP" or "Its already been looked at and deemed normal" And there is no recourse you can take on them. Iv tried... No one will fight CFHA. As most of the local inspectors or contractors are on CFHA payroll.

nice eh?


----------



## meni0n (5 Feb 2009)

Puck that is not correct. In Quebec, the latest numbers from Regie de Logement are 
Dwellings heated    Estimated increase 
with electricity 0.8 % 
with gas 1.8 % 
with oil 5.1 % 
Unheated dwellings 0.6 % 

This is from http://www.rdl.gouv.qc.ca/en/outils/Fixation2009.asp . Unless the landlord did some work or renovations on the dwelling,
those are the average numbers to follow. There are specific guidelines to avoid gouging by landlords.


----------



## Hotwire (5 Feb 2009)

I guess what Im trying to say is, why are We falling to so a system that is failing. Were not suppose to be paying them to screw us over. Were also not he ones who have to make the changes because somone else feels it to be right... We are paying them, so they are working for us. Its a service they are providing us, and we should be satisfied with. not the other way around.

Is there no group that is looking out for OUR needs? If there isnt I think there should be! They say CFHA is a civilian run organization, well why then do they fall under gov. rules and regulations? They can't get away with having the best of both worlds. Its one or the other, and with the choise comes the ups and downs. You cant win them all.. and CFHA has been trying for nearly 10 years now.

In the begining, CHFA was for the people, things were getting done, and most people were happy. But now that they are in control.. for get about it. I just called to day... AGAIN.. to get them to look at my kitchen roof... AGAIN... and they said when they get to it.


----------



## birdgunnnersrule (6 Feb 2009)

For folks that run into problems with CFHA, there is a complaints process on there website that you can utilise.  When we lived in the PMQs we had a major ant  infestation and mold that they kept blaming on us and refused to address.  After exhausting all avenues, I filed a complaint.  The ants were in the tree next to the house like I had been saying all along and the mold was a result of poor air flow.  Once the air exchanger was installed and tree removed we were good to go. My biggest peeve about the payroll is how the local cleaning companies are in with CFHA and you need to have a spotless house when you move out.  Nothing wrong leaving things the way you found them, but since it will be repainted and repaired after the move, CFHA will need to clean it again. At least we hope.


----------



## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2009)

The complaint system works REALLY well.  At least it did for me. I used it 2 times, once in Winnipeg and once in Kingston. Both times, CFHA initally refused to provide help (twice for bathroom problems).  Once the complaints were filed, the repairs were started within 3 days.


----------



## CountDC (23 Feb 2009)

Looking for up to date info on the Q's in Vancouver - or should say looking for real info instead of the CFHA info.  Anyone know waiting list length? Condition? Utility cost?  D9 has picked as one of her posting choices for this year so I figured I better do some scouting before talking to CM tomorrow.

Buying is out so please don't post the advise that is already on here enough times.


----------



## CountDC (24 Feb 2009)

Turns out Vancouver is out - maybe going to Yellowknife instead.  Doesn't seem to be much of a difference.  >


----------



## armyvern (24 Feb 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Turns out Vancouver is out - maybe going to Yellowknife instead.  Doesn't seem to be much of a difference.  >



I've got one of my Cpls is screening for Yellowknife now (1st choice); another for Geilenkirschen (1st choice).

We seem to have hit the jackpot around here this year ... if you're anyone but me it seems. 

Everyone I know whose been to Yellowknife has thoroughly enjoyed it ... and asked for extentions.


----------



## CountDC (25 Feb 2009)

:'(  sometimes I just   :whiteflag:   Did not realize the screening involved with Yellowknife, D9 didn't understand the isol post implications.  We would love to go there as it sounds like a great place but the family medical situation bites right now and doubt it would make it past screening. 

Everything we have read and everyone I talked to says it is a great posting. 

Guess I will just have to wait and see what the future holds.  Supposed to start screening but am now waiting to see if that is still a go ahead or turned off.


----------



## observor 69 (22 Mar 2009)

Did a trip up to Kingston this weekend and while there decided to look up the PMQ they had offered me in 1985 and I had rejected. At that time I had over 12 years in and was a married MCpl fresh back from overseas.  I was offered a tired two bedroom row house that had a small metal storage shed nearby.
Personally I had planned on waiting a year in Q's before buying local. Well I ended up buying a house in Kingston Township a few weeks later. As we drove down into Q's, proceeding east from CANEX, the first homes looked OK but as we progressed further in, the condition began to get a bit sorry looking. Many looked unoccupied. At last we came to the area of my old offered Q. It had been turned into an open gravel covered lot. The only part of the Q's that had been leveled was where my old rowhouse had stood.     >


----------



## Shal (2 Apr 2009)

*I have a few questions. Hopefully someone can shed some light. My common-law husband (waiting on that proposal lol) is in basic right now he's doing as good as can be expected. He's never had to be away from our son (just turned 10 months yesterday) for more then four days. But we are proud. He is going through for Military Police training so when he is done basic he heads off to Borden for six months. 

We were interested in a "PMQ" this is our first taste of military life and we dont know much about it all. How do we go about applying for it. He is supposed to be in borden six months is it even likely that he would be able to get it? We have a booklet that says he is eligible to move his family there while he is in occupational training depending on time period. 

If we are able to get it we only need a two bedroom place. Does anyone know how much they cost? Also what is this mention of discounts would he get whatever that is? 

Do they come with any appliances or is that our responsibilty (wouldnt want to move our stuff all there an then have to store all the big stuff).

Any information would be greatly appreciated. Just want to be as prepared at possible. 

Thanks so much 


 *


----------



## aesop081 (2 Apr 2009)

Shal said:
			
		

> *Do they come with any appliances  *



They don't.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Apr 2009)

Try this thread, there might be good stuff there.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35567.0.html


----------



## emewife66 (7 Apr 2009)

Ok, so hubby was offered a posting to Kingston (after he put in his release memo so we could move home to Ontario).  I would like the straight story, and as I have read in a prev post, not the version that CFHA will give, which isn't much by the way.  I've heard they are in very terrible condition, no insulation, no basements, no garages...  Please, any info would be appreciated.  We've also looked at buying, and that is out of the question too...  We may have to buy in Cornwall, and commute at this rate...  Thank you in advance!!   :camo:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Apr 2009)

Shal said:
			
		

> *I have a few questions. Hopefully someone can shed some light. My common-law husband (waiting on that proposal lol) is in basic right now he's doing as good as can be expected. He's never had to be away from our son (just turned 10 months yesterday) for more then four days. But we are proud. He is going through for Military Police training so when he is done basic he heads off to Borden for six months.
> 
> We were interested in a "PMQ" this is our first taste of military life and we dont know much about it all. How do we go about applying for it. He is supposed to be in borden six months is it even likely that he would be able to get it? We have a booklet that says he is eligible to move his family there while he is in occupational training depending on time period.
> 
> ...



This link might give you a start....

http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/hl-el/borden-eng.aspx


----------



## observor 69 (7 Apr 2009)

emewife66 said:
			
		

> Ok, so hubby was offered a posting to Kingston (after he put in his release memo so we could move home to Ontario).  I would like the straight story, and as I have read in a prev post, not the version that CFHA will give, which isn't much by the way.  I've heard they are in very terrible condition, no insulation, no basements, no garages...  Please, any info would be appreciated.  We've also looked at buying, and that is out of the question too...  We may have to buy in Cornwall, and commute at this rate...  Thank you in advance!!   :camo:




Type in "apartment rental kingston ontario " in Google and lots of off-base rental comes up.
Homestead has a lot of stuff :
"http://www.homestead.ca/locations/?city=Kingston#show

You should be able to get rental housing off base that will get you started.
Ref on-base I would be the last person to ask if you look at my last post.    >


----------



## emewife66 (7 Apr 2009)

Thanks BadenGuy for replying!

The rental units on the link you gave me are great, but mostly apartments, and the 3 bedroom townhouses are nice, but...  Hubby says we will find out if we can buy in Cornwall, and he'll get a room in the shacks to stay in during the week, and come home on weekends...  We only have 3 more years in the military until retirement anyway!!


----------



## ltmaverick25 (30 Apr 2009)

Does anyone have any input on PMQs in Victoria/Esquimault.  I saw a few comments made a number of years back in this thread but nothing current.  Are there any sites that should be avoided or pursued?  For a single guy is it better to rent a one bedroom apartment out there as compared to the prices charged?  I have never been west of Ontario and know nothing of the rental/housing markets in Victoria or the PMQ situation.


----------



## George Wallace (30 Apr 2009)

One word:  Expensive.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Apr 2009)

No idea on the PMQs there, however, PLD for that area is still $816.  No change announced for this FY, however the usual caveat of "PLD is subject to change annually and mbr's should not base long term financial committments on receiving PLD" applies.  

Of that $816, you should see about 60% of that after taxes, etc.  Of my $631 PLD (Halifax) I get about $378 of that after deductions.


----------



## dimsum (14 May 2009)

Hi all,

What are the state and availability of Qs in Comox?  I was planning on renting a Q, then moving to a condo when I've settled in and figured out the housing market there.

Thanks!


----------



## PMedMoe (14 May 2009)

Here's a phone number for CFHA Comox.


----------



## home options (8 Jun 2009)

Why Rent? Buying is much better.  At least you take your equity with you when you move.


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Jun 2009)

Unless the market crashes like it did recently.


----------



## templeton peck (16 Jun 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I think you may be SOL, at least in Quebec: http://www.checkfirstonline.com/rent_increases.htm Says that Quebec landlords can increase their rent by whatever they want when they want as long as the lease is over 12 months, as long as they give you notice.



I live in Montreal and that isn't true. Quebec has the country's best rental board and the renter, not the landlord, has the upper hand. Rent can only go up 1 or 2 % UNLESS major renovations have been done. I have an older lady that live in my building who has lived there for 39 year and is paying 350 dollars for an apartment that is going for $1200 today and she tells me the main thing that keeps her alive and kicking is to stick it to the owners of the building! 
There are negative aspects of living in Qc, but the rent is low and affordable and aplenty! Too bad there aren't any bases in town. (Long-Point doesn't count, does it?)


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## Franko (19 Jun 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Unless the market crashes like it did recently.



Not every place felt it. 

Out west was hit rather hard, but out east it slowed down a bit and is now back on the rise.

Over the long term it is better to buy than rent.

But that is for another thread and not here.     

Regards


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## CougarKing (30 Sep 2009)

A belated update for this thread:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/090930/canada/canada_manitoba300909_kapyong_decision_invalid



> Kapyong transfer invalid, court rules
> 
> Wed Sep 30, 2:08 PM
> 
> ...


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## Lillie Jade (22 Nov 2009)

I've just joined this forum to find out more info on living on base, my fiance has recently joined the CF and is away at basic right now. We're planing to get married before moving to Gagetown and living on base while he completes his job specific training and if he has to stay there for whatever period of time. I've only read the first few pages of this feed but I'm starting to get a little concerned about making the choice to live on base.
Does anyone from that area recommend it or should I start looking into areas off base to live?


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## CB (17 Feb 2010)

i just had a couple questions as to the pmqs in gagetown, i was wondering what are the chances of an me and my bofriend getting a two bedroom by march ? and how much a month it costs?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Feb 2010)

Hi CB,

I can't help you with the PMQ question but I can, and will, tell you that we at army.ca are a wee bit different than most internet forums.
If you can't be bothered to use proper spelling, capitalization, etc., than chances are that no one will take the time from their busy day to answer you.

Having said that, "Welcome to army.ca."
Bruce


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## Jammer (17 Feb 2010)

You and your "bofriend" can Google "CFHA" to get the latest PMQ rates.


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## Nfld Sapper (17 Feb 2010)

CB said:
			
		

> i just had a couple questions as to the pmqs in gagetown, i was wondering what are the chances of an me and my bofriend getting a two bedroom by march ? and how much a month it costs?



If he is going there for course then probably won't get one.... if he is posted there (i.e. to one of the lodger units or the schools as staff) then he should of had a HHT trip by now........


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## momof2 (7 Apr 2010)

I member living in the pmq's in Greenwood around 10 years ago and our house was so bad with mold that  they moved us into another q > they said ours was so bad that they were going to tear it down or cut it right out.... Then to find out days later they painted it and someone else was in it.. WITHIN A WEEK..


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## worrow (17 May 2010)

In relation to $1035/month for the renter of 3 BDRM Duplex in PMQ's...... Thats a decent price. Check out the cost to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in town, and you get no yard with them. I rent in the slums at $830/ month for 2 BDRM 900 sq ft. I worry about someone shanking me or stealing my car or breaking into my apartment daily. Cops are always here aswell as firetruck and ambulances. twice a week minimum. I currently applied for a PMQ and will gladly pay $1035 and get bonus yard, definately larger than 900 sq ft. and no worries about thugs. The only downfall to Kingston's PMQ's is the fact you have to go and buy all of your utilities. fridge, stove, washer, dryer, lawn mower. But I do look forward to them. now #20 on Priority list #2 but only really seen a few. Plus maybe I'll get one that is being updated.


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## PuckChaser (17 May 2010)

I can't believe you're on a wait list, unless you're looking for a 4bdrm. I've seen a few empty PMQs, but maybe since they're not using Normandy Cres anymore, they've made demand outweigh supply.

I only pay 950$ with water surcharge, for a 3bdrm single house. Add on about $65 for gas and $70 for power, and its a pretty good deal. I was in the same boat you were, worrow, and have never regretted moving out of my Homestead apartment and into a PMQ.


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## worrow (17 May 2010)

I'm looking for 3 or 4, whichever comes first. But I am debating for semi or single house. Not much difference in price I don't think. New rates are better than last years as far as I see on paper. PuckChaser, did you get one of the new units they fixed up???  They said because of posting season thats why we have a wait. But I also told them I need 60 days notice so I can tell my landlord. Otherwise I pay a penalty. After actually going over my rent. I pay $830 + $160/month gas to commute + $50/month laundry + $40/month eating at work. Now brings me to $1080. So in actuality, you pay $5 more than me and have 1 extra room, a place to yourself with family I assume, a yard. Benefits just keep piling up for me.


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## SupersonicMax (17 May 2010)

Have you tought about buying?  For 1100$ a month, you can get a 200K mortgage.  There are some good houses in the KTown area for 200-250K.

Paying 1000$+ a month on rent is crazy in my mind... Especially in a PMQ.


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## PuckChaser (17 May 2010)

Any of the houses around Kingston that are decent for about $220,000 are at least a 25-30 minute drive from the Base. Then you're paying $2500-3000 to the city every year for property tax and services that quite frankly suck. Added to that if something breaks while you're in the field, you best have a good repair guy lined up for 9er Domestic, whereas she can just call the CFHA Emergency line after hours and it gets fixed tout suite with no cost. 2 minutes to work, I get to shower at home, spend lunch at home with my fiancee and newborn, its win win.

I'm not sure if my PMQ was redone inside, its does have relatively new windows and siding and is pretty good at keeping heat in the winter. Hardwood floors downstairs were immaculate when I moved in, so there was at least some work done. I moved in March last year, so guess there wasn't a wait for me. Once they call you with available PMQs and you sign the offer, you can pick the move in date and they'll hold the PMQ.


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## worrow (17 May 2010)

Definately not capable of buying a house. There is alot more to buying than I am willing to do at this time, especially on a single income. I too look forward to being home for lunch with my wife and newborn. Besides being on base in the q's allows my wife and I to make more friends. People in my neighborhood are of how you say, questionable character. Also looking forward to less frustration in rush hour traffic commuting over the causeway or up 15. Especially with the horrible tractor trailer drivers lately shutting down west bound lanes, which I currently need when the causeway is backed up because most of downtown main core is closed. Also less listening to the elephants upstairs. I like PuckChasers view on houses. Less money to the city. Easier for my wife when I am gone if she is in Q's, I am on top of the list at our unit for tour as well, so she will appreciate it.


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## SupersonicMax (17 May 2010)

Renting: You throw your money away at CFHA.

Buying: You are putting your money into equity.  

Your choice.


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## kkramar (17 May 2010)

Hard to buy a house when you don't have money for a down payment. Not to mention being financial responsible for anything that goes wrong. I would probably live in a PMQ for 1-2 years to save up a decent nest egg for a down payment and a reserve for house repairs.


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## PuckChaser (17 May 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Renting: You throw your money away at CFHA.
> 
> Buying: You are putting your money into equity.
> 
> Your choice.



You're putting money into the bank's pockets, you mean. I'm not keen on spending money on interest for something I'll probably be moving out of in a few years, especially if I want to spend the time to make the house the way I want it. Yeah, you may be buying a little bit of equity, but when I'm renting I can put more of my income away for a down payment in the future when my posting situation is more predictable. You're forgetting that worrow has already been posted, and if he's outside that window for IRP to pay all the fees and costs of buying a home, he could be out quite a bit of expense from either his down payment or pocket.


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## SupersonicMax (17 May 2010)

PMQs:  Being ON base is really an advantage.  Really?!

I lived in KTown for 4 years.  I know what it's like.  Lot of people do the commute from the other side, heck, even Wolfe Island.  20 minutes ain't that bad.

Downpayment:  There are mortgages with 0$ down.  Granted they have a slightly higher interest rate, it's still not too bad.  These days, the interest rates are really not that bad..  Wait until August and we may see a different situation.  If you lock in an interest rate now, it's guaranteed for 120 days.  Come August, the hike in interest rates will drive the market down and as a buyer, you'll be in a far better position.  Right now, 100% of your housing budget goes down the drain.  At least with a mortgage, you are making some equity.  The earlier you buy, the earlier you'll be mortgage free.  Renting doesn't make sense financially in the long term for any renter.  You are paying someone else's mortgage.

Yes, owning a property comes with more responsabilities.  But guess what. That's life.


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## Nuggs (18 May 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> PMQs:  Being ON base is really an advantage.  Really?!
> 
> I lived in KTown for 4 years.  I know what it's like.  Lot of people do the commute from the other side, heck, even Wolfe Island.  20 minutes ain't that bad.
> 
> ...



Didn't CMHC kill $0 down mortgage insurance at the end of 2008?


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## SupersonicMax (18 May 2010)

They are still around.  I know that Scotiabank offers it.


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## Humphrey Bogart (18 May 2010)

worrow said:
			
		

> In relation to $1035/month for the renter of 3 BDRM Duplex in PMQ's...... Thats a decent price. Check out the cost to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in town, and you get no yard with them. I rent in the slums at $830/ month for 2 BDRM 900 sq ft. I worry about someone shanking me or stealing my car or breaking into my apartment daily. Cops are always here aswell as firetruck and ambulances. twice a week minimum. I currently applied for a PMQ and will gladly pay $1035 and get bonus yard, definately larger than 900 sq ft. and no worries about thugs. The only downfall to Kingston's PMQ's is the fact you have to go and buy all of your utilities. fridge, stove, washer, dryer, lawn mower. But I do look forward to them. now #20 on Priority list #2 but only really seen a few. Plus maybe I'll get one that is being updated.



Haha where do you live? I live off Montreal on Markland, and yah its pretty bad, my neighbors are huge druggies and the cops are always there.  There is a lot of petty crime going on, one of my buddies had his car broken into something like 3 times this past year.

The police role around in multiples all over my neighborhood, not to mention there are girls at the street corner offering a variety of "special" services, Kingston is a nice city in the tourist areas but anything North of Princess and it gets a little dicey in some spots.


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## captloadie (18 May 2010)

Supersonic Max - 5-10 years ago your advice may have been sound, but in today's economy, unless you can afford to make a decent downpayment, buying isn't always the best option. True Zero down mortgages are now a thing of the past (there are still some cash back offers, but they aren't really good deal), and CMHC is changing the rules to qualify for a mortgage. Mortgage rates are going up, and advising our young soldiers to fall into the trap of buying when they don't have the money is only asking to start them off on a poor financial path. And to buy anything decent in Kingston where you can let your kids out to play is pricey. Probably starting this year, and next year for sure, I think this forum will start hearing stories of people taking a loss on their homes.

But, I'm not an economist, so I could be wrong.


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## worrow (18 May 2010)

I do see where your coming from SupersonicMax about the equity. It does make sense if you are financially capable. But the $0 down, your looking at spending alot more that what it will cost for the PMQ. Also it is hard owning a house when your living on a single income supporting 2 people and planning on #3. I am definately out of the window for entitlement to buying expenses from Royal Lepage. 

As for Stymiest, I live on Compton in the heights.


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## TimBit (18 May 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> PMQs:  Being ON base is really an advantage.  Really?!
> 
> I lived in KTown for 4 years.  I know what it's like.  Lot of people do the commute from the other side, heck, even Wolfe Island.  20 minutes ain't that bad.
> 
> ...



Well the calculation is more complicated than that Max... you have to take into account the savings from renting...sometimes. For example, I calculated that, at current interest rates and without accounting for house appreciation (which has been red hot but artificially so), any mortage of more than 160000$ on a 20 yrs repayment schedule in North Bay will generate less equity than the mortgage+tax/rent differential if you religiously put it in the bank. Of course religiously is the key here. For example: a 250K mortgage in Cold Lake will get you an OK house. At 4% on 20 yrs, after 3 yrs you'll have repaid 27K capital. That is with a payment of 1515$. In a 900$ Q you would save 22K. Add to that the taxes you don't pay And you break even. Now of course with appreciation you're better off with a house.

I'm not saying it's equal in the end. Just that sometimes, depending on Q rent vs housing market it's not necessarily as good an investment as you think.


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## SupersonicMax (18 May 2010)

Timbit:  we all know how easy it is to spend money when you have access to it.  Most people won't save religiously.


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## TimBit (18 May 2010)

True. I would personally advise anyone attempting that to have the savings deducted on the pay and put in saving bonds straight away.


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## worrow (18 May 2010)

Would be nice if someone has a .pdf floorplan for the 3 bdrm semi or duplex and single. Something I can use to compare. Your welcome to email me in order to recieve an email address if you have the file. Unfortunately only floorplan I found was for the 4bdrm semi w/crawlspace


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## kkramar (1 Jul 2010)

CFHA website now has a search function for the PMQs and they also have floor plans as well. Not sure how long this has been available, but I just recently noticed it 2 weeks ago.


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## Jharvey3 (25 Jul 2010)

If anyone has any info on the Naval base in Halifax, please give me some insight.  I am 8 months away from finishing  my college part of my contract for NWT.  My wife wants to go and visit Halifax and get info on the PMQs and the surrounding area.  I was wondering if there is anyone that I could contact to get info and maybe a quick tour of the PMQs.  Do I need to go through my CPL for this? or is it something I can do alone.  Thanks for the Help.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Jul 2010)

*1.1.3 Allocation of DND Housing*
http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/lib-bib/mig113-mid113-eng.aspx



> 4. DND Housing Application Processing
> 
> 1. Start of Process
> 
> ...


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## blacktriangle (4 Aug 2010)

Hey guys, just looking for some advice here - this was the best place I could think of to post this. 

I am single (although that may soon change, I don't see my girlfriend being able to make as much as me) and just got posted as I am in a new trade. I am looking to move out of the shacks and was told I will likely be approved ASAP, but I am not a big fan of renting. I have looked into moving into a PMQ (I would consider that) but there is a waiting list and obviously my friends and I will not get priority. 

Many people on here have mentioned how wise it is to "own" and "buy a house at every posting". So could anyone suggest what percentage a down payment should be on a house? I have quite a bit of money saved for someone my age, but I am not really sure of what to expect in terms of hidden costs etc. I don't have a car payment or anything like that, I just would need to look after the mortgage and all that comes along with them, and then feeding myself and other day to day expenses. I have found some cheap houses near the base here, so that's why I ask. I can provide more specifics if that helps someone advise me better.

Any thoughts? 

Thanks.


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## George Wallace (4 Aug 2010)

The more you put down, the less of a mortgage you will require to take, allowing you to pay it off quicker with less interest.  Depending how much you actually have, this may leave you with very little in way of "Emergency Funds" and money for living.

The less you put down, the higher the mortgage you will be required to taken and longer and more interest to pay off.  This may or may not leave you with more money to live on and a larger "Emergency Fund".

It is "six of one/half a dozen of the other", and depends on where you want your costs to lie.  Do you want to pay everything off early and enjoy your money later, or enjoy your few bucks now and pay it off over a longer term with more money going to the Loan manager?  How do you want to manage your debt?


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## Task (4 Aug 2010)

George said it best. Also note the higher the down payment the less CMHC fees you will pay.


To help you determine what you may want to do, here is a link for Mortgage <and other> calculators.

www.citizensbank.ca/Personal/Calculators/


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## REDinstaller (4 Aug 2010)

And just because a house looks like a good deal, always get a home inspection done. This will save you money in the long run, costs for tradesmen to repair housing issues are quite high.


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## dapaterson (4 Aug 2010)

Costs to consider on purchase of a home (a non-comprehensive list):

Land transfer tax

Lawyer's fees

Hookup fees for utilities

Security deposits for utilities

Window blinds and curtains

Cleaning of the house

Appliances

Yard tools (lawn mower, snow blower etc)

Furniture

Refinishing/repair of house (paint, new carpets etc)

Moving costs (movers, or rent a truck and buy pizza and beer for friends.  Voice of experience: Move first, beer later)


They can add up to anywhere from $5-15K, depending on what you want.


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## REDinstaller (4 Aug 2010)

Along with repairs after your friends help you move in. :nod:


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## 63 Delta (4 Aug 2010)

Im currently living in Petawawa, and have a major disagreement with a CFHA policy/action they have taken. I have the option of putting a claim against the crown, but would like to know all my options. In particular if anybody has sued, is suing, wants to sue, or if it is even possible. I assume it must be possible since CFHA is a crown corporation, and not part of the military. 

Please, only serious comments and thoughts. Dont want to hear peoples speculations


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## REDinstaller (4 Aug 2010)

What is your disagreement with CFHA?


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## 63 Delta (4 Aug 2010)

I had rented a row garage. My truck was parked in front of it, un-plated and un insured, which is allowed on private property. Base commanders policy is that all vehicles un-plated/uninsured are towed. Of course I was advised of this after the fact. I went on tour, and 10 days later my truck was ordered towed by CFHA. I was never notified, nor was my wife. No letter was ever sent to my house or attempt to contact my CoC.  The garage is registered in my name, plus I live right across from CFHA. Subsequently it was destroyed a month or two before I arrived home. Had no chance to deal with this at all. My argument is: 1. it was private property (truck and garage as I was renting it). 2 no attempt was ever made to contact me. 3. It goes against everything I have read under the Ontario Tenancy act, especially when seizing property. Thats what has happened.

Im really not interested in anyways "opinions on the above". If you have real facts to provide Im open, but Ive had enough of peoples opinions, usually have as much fact as a rumour.


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## HItorMiss (4 Aug 2010)

If you have researched the tenancy act and it is counter to the act then you have a legal right to oppose this and seek compensation it is a s simple as that.

Often it is forgotten that yes we are in the military and yes we do follow orders but some orders (Non combat related I don't want to start this debate) Are against the law. If your truck had been on Base property such as say the shacks parking lot then the Base has every right to enforce Base Commander Policy. However as the PMQ is rented by you and is your property (per say) under the Tenancy laws the the Base Commanders orders are void.

In my opinion this would be like your CoC inspecting you PMQ like they do the rooms in the shacks. They cannot simply because it is your property and they have no right to inspect seize or in anyway touch your personally effects on your property.

My  :2c: 

I wish you luck and I hope you do follow through with the law suit or at least push this as far as it can go and get compensation for your loss.


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## PMedMoe (4 Aug 2010)

Did you get a copy of this when you moved in?

CFHA - Conditions of Occupancy


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## HItorMiss (4 Aug 2010)

Found in that text



> 2. An occupant of a married quarter is not a tenant and has no legal estate or interest in the premises. The various provincial Landlord and Tenant Acts do not apply to married quarters. The occupant is not a leaseholder.



However nowhere does is state in that entire document that I could see that he could not have his truck in his garage driveway nor that the Base Commander has any right to the property

Also that statement finishes with



> Consequently, the occupant can not and shall not pass the premises to others upon vacating. Such practice shall result in immediate cancellation of the Conditions of Occupancy to the existing occupant.



So I am not sure it applies either...


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## GAP (4 Aug 2010)

Further to what PMoe attached....



> Parking
> 45. The occupant shall ensure that their automobile and those of their dependants and guests are not parked in such a way as to hinder fire-fighting equipment and, in winter, snow removal equipment. Married quarters driveways or other RHU properties shall not be used for storing non-roadworthy vehicles or other bulky items.
> 
> 46. Recreational vehicles, such as trailers and boats, shall not be parked on RHU property. It is understood that, on occasion, it will be necessary for the occupant to park recreational vehicles near their home for short periods of time. In these cases, the occupant shall obtain the prior written approval of the HSC. Parking or driving of any vehicle on grassed areas is not permitted.



and



> Temporary Automobile Shelters
> 51. The occupant may erect commercially available automobile shelters with prior written approval of the HSC. The shelter shall not extend beyond the lot line. Municipal by-laws shall be adhered to and shelters shall be structurally sound and in good condition. The occupant shall repair, at their own expense, any damage caused by the installation of such structures.


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## HItorMiss (4 Aug 2010)

Gap none of those apply in this case.... not to my reckoning anyway


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## George Wallace (4 Aug 2010)

The Regulations are there.  If you don't read them, then it is your fault if you get caught up in these types of cases.  

BulletMagnet

You may be surprised, but the Base Comd CAN inspect your PMQ should the need arise.  It so seldom does, so no one thinks much about it.  PMQs are not "Private Property", and never have been. They are DND property.......now managed by CFHA.





> 17. HSC staff shall be permitted to inspect an RHU for appraisals and other types of required inspection. The HSC shall be responsible for advising the occupant with the reason for the inspection and an approximate date and time of the inspection. The occupant shall allow access to their RHU by members of the Canadian Forces, civilian employees of the Government of Canada and CFHA contractors, in the performance of their duties. Except in an emergency, at least 24 hours’ notice shall be given to the occupant.


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## PMedMoe (4 Aug 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Gap none of those apply in this case.... not to my reckoning anyway



Really?



> The occupant shall ensure that their automobile and those of their dependants and guests are *not parked in such a way as to hinder fire-fighting equipment and, in winter, snow removal equipment*.



and



> Married quarters driveways or other RHU properties shall not be used for storing *non-roadworthy* vehicles or other bulky items.



If I'm reading this correctly, the non-plated, non-insured (and thereby non-roadworthy) vehicle was parked in front of the rented garage (and not inside), thereby potentially hindering fire-fighting and snow removal equipment.  This is why I asked if the OP had received a copy.

I would have at least expected a notice, however, if it's in the occupancy conditions, I don't know that they're required to give you any.


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## PuckChaser (4 Aug 2010)

Did you just have the driveability portion of the insurance removed, and have the vehicle protected from theft and fire? If so, the vehicle was technically insured and therefore CFHA should not have moved it.


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## 63 Delta (4 Aug 2010)

Bullet Magnet: Thanks for the support. 

PMedMoe: Thanks for the link. As for receiving a copy, I have never to my knowledge  received a copy (and I have checked my files, as I have my original signed copy of my application). Second, I rented my row garage a year after my PMQ, and was never notified or read anything about unplated/uninsured vehicles being in front of the row garage. It completely defeated my reason for getting the garage.

PuckChaser: As for insurance, I did have fire/theft on my truck, was paying for my whole tour, while my truck was impounded then destroyed. Also come to think of it, it was plated, just not registered. Should have been BC plates. 

So, here comes to my next points. Every year I have to pay my taxes to Ontario, as according to them I live here. So if I live in Ontario and pay taxes, shouldn't the laws of Ontario apply to me? If not then the PMQs should be some king of Federal Reserve with no provincial taxes. I mean really, I pay the taxes but don't get the protection of the laws? Not really fair. And I know the next argument to that. Your in the military and fall under different rules and laws. Sure, when it comes to my job; when it comes to my house I don't believe the military should have any say.

Also. What about the fact that my truck had plates, a VIN number, and was parked in front of my garage. No effort was made to contact me for the 6 months it was pared there. No warning system? No effort to contact the owner? It was towed in Mid October so posed no Snow removal problems, and in no way impeded any fire equipment.

Another problem I have is how CFHA gets treated like it is above the law. CFHA should have to follow the tenancy act. If they don't, what laws govern them? A mish mash of Base Standing orders, and federal bureaucrat mumbo jumbo, none of which has been ratified by the tax payers? Hardly fair. I know you'll say, "then you should move out on to the economy". I am. This month. But when I moved here as a young trooper with base pay, and my wife had no job, I had no choice.


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## Franko (4 Aug 2010)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> In my opinion this would be like your CoC inspecting you PMQ like they do the rooms in the shacks. They cannot simply because it is your property and they have no right to inspect seize or in anyway touch your personally effects on your property.



Sorry, but you've been mislead.

I, along with a few other Snr NCOs and a SSM, have inspected one PMQ. It is rare, but it can happen under the wrong circumstances.

As to HULK_011's query, you may have a case if they did not provide fair warning to you prior to them towing it. Also you may have a case against the towing company (Red's Towing by any chance?) for not securing it properly and taking proactive steps to ensure that your vehicle wouldn't be damaged. They do have insurance...or at least are supposed to. I'd go after them as well.

Have you talked to a lawyer?

Regards


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## dapaterson (4 Aug 2010)

Hence why it's move, then beer.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Aug 2010)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> Im currently living in Petawawa, and have a major disagreement with a CFHA policy/action they have taken. *I have the option of putting a claim against the crown*, but would like to know all my options. In particular if anybody has sued, is suing, wants to sue, or if it is even possible. I assume it must be possible since *CFHA is a crown corporation*, and not part of the military.




I assume that you have completed all the steps of the Occupant Complaint Resolution Process and have not received satisfaction.  Since you are aware that you can make a claim against the crown, you are probably already familiar with  DAOD 7004-0, Claims By or Against the Crown and Ex gratia Payments and DAOD 7004-1, Claims and Ex gratia Procedures.  For your info, CFHA is not a “crown corporation” but is a “Special Operating Agency” in the Department of National Defence; there is a significant difference.

Making a claim against the crown is a usual step in most legal proceedings by federal employees seeking monetary compensation from a government entity.  Unless, there is some specific reason why you wish to sue the Minister of National Defence through his CFHA (apology for my facetiousness) then your best bet may be to see if a claim against the crown will recompense you for the loss of the vehicle.  If that is not the case, perhaps you can seek a redress of grievance.  If your intent is to sue, then, as was previously mentioned, the best advice you can get here is to *see a lawyer*.  Yes, they will charge for their time and may even not be successful.

On the face of the scant details you provided about the situation, IMHO, you may not have a valid “legal” claim.  Of course, there are almost always details that can modify a situation.  My suggestion would be to first gather all possible documentary evidence.  Since there are few details in the “Conditions of Occupancy” document about the procedures that they would take when dealing with any infraction of the rules, you should attempt to get from the CFHA copies of any internal SOPs that detail how they do these things.  It may require an Access to Information Request.  If they strayed from those procedures it may strengthen your case.  


_ Edited to remove the final suggestion for the "last ditch" manoeuver. _


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## REDinstaller (5 Aug 2010)

And it never hurts to have a friend that knows how to do drywall, especially the taping and mudding.


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## captloadie (5 Aug 2010)

In most areas in Canada, house prices are either stagnate or falling at this time. Most people would be better off waiting a while longer, as housing prices will be coming down (see the other thread on HEA for examples). 

For Kingston, now is the worst time to consider buying a house. Posting season always ends up inflating prices, as people desperate to find a house pay more to get what they want. You should look around now, find a few house that have been for sale since the spring and wait until late fall to see if they are still available. It is almost guaranteed the seller will be getting desperate and will have dropped the price by then. 

Also, either get a good realtor, or someone who really knows Kingston, because there are some great deals on houses, in areas that you wouldn't/shouldn't live and will never be able to sell.


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## captloadie (5 Aug 2010)

Could the lack of notice have been due to the fact there was no way to track who owned the vehicle? It had unregistered out of province plates. Since we all have started speculating anyway, I would proffer that the towing company has an agreement with the base that allows them to cruise through around the base looking for vehicles breaching different base policies (parking, missing registration, etc.) They probably only need to phone the MPs, request permission to tow, and voila, your car is gone.

You probably won't get anywhere with CFHA or making a claim against the Crown, but you might have a strong case against the company who towed your vehicle. It sounds like they did not do their due diligence before disposing of the vehicle.


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## ArmyRick (5 Aug 2010)

See a Lawyer. At least there you will get an informed answer to your main question. Get all the documentation you can.

Your obviously p*ssed off.

Yes you pay taxes in Ontario but that does not entitle to you all the benefits and protection offered by the Ontario government concerning provincial matters.
One example is Ontario Health Card, you have to be a resident of Ontario (if born outside the province) for a certain period of time before your entitled to one.

Your not interested in opinions so I won't offer one.


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## armyvern (5 Aug 2010)

The Crown (nor DND or the CF) also does not pay property taxes for the value of the Qs or land they sit on into provincial coffers either as `private property` homeowners and landlords must do for their properties. Those property taxes then afford them (and tenants) certain protections; not necessarily so the case with Qs.

__________

Mid-October is the timeframe when the SNICs will be out staking their orange wood stakes into the ground for the upcoming snowfalls to denote fire hydrants, and noting impediments to snow removal etc etc. That co-incides with the towing of the vehicle. I`d imagine that`s what found the truck reported originally. Now, most of the garages for rental in Pet are not single, but are rather laid out in an attached row ... making it a common parking lot (rather than a personal driveway) directly in front of them that will need to be plowed out to allow access into the gargages should there be a fire during the winter. No, Captloadie there are not towtrucks prowling through the Qs in Pet seeking with an eye for financial gain, then reporting, then towing abandonned or unroadworthy vehicles with any type of sanction (official or unofficial) from CFHA or the BComd. 

I`m still surprised though that the truck was disposed of with no notification to the owner. Was there identifying documents in the dash? Or did it all link back to BC? If so, that would suck considering that Ontario law says:



> New Residents
> If you are a new resident in Ontario and have a valid driver's licence from another province, state or country, you can use it for up to 60 days after you move to Ontario. If you want to keep driving in Ontario, you must get an Ontario driver's licence. You must use your Ontario licence when you are issued one. *New Ontario residents have 30 days before they have to register their vehicles and get Ontario licence plates and vehicle permit. * Click here for more information on Getting an Ontario Driver's Licence or Licensing a Vehicle in Ontario.



But, that may be the only way to fight this battle. If the towing truck couldn`t trace it to you by way of documents and addy in the vehicle, & CFHA can not provide them your name as the renter of the gargage it was in front of by way of Privacy Act, then perhaps CFHA could have slipped you a note into your mailbox stating that they had towed a vehicle from in front of your garage ... just like they do when dogs bark too loud, when people don`t mow their lawns etc etc. They could have at least made an attempt to notify. That`s the only route I see with a valid leg to stand on.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Aug 2010)

If the towing company also has a salvage yard, there is a possibility that the vehicle, if it was in any kind of half decent shape, wasn't destroyed. While they may have indicated such, they may have sold it at auction or simply safetied it and put it back out there. Some of the more unscroupulous yards seem to have no problem gaining ownership and title to any vehicle they wish. A VIN check with MOT and\or CARFAX may turn up it's real status.


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## Pusser (5 Aug 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Costs to consider on purchase of a home (a non-comprehensive list):
> 
> Land transfer tax
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that several of these costs are covered by the CF.  Talk to your OR and/or CFIRP.

As for moving, I recommend (from experience) you find yourself a local mover who charges by the hour.  Compared to renting a vehicle and providing beer and pizza to all your friends (and you will only find out who your true friends are AFTER you ask them to help you move), paying $75-100 an hour for two guys who bring their own truck is a bargain.


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## REDinstaller (5 Aug 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that several of these costs are covered by the CF.  Talk to your OR and/or CFIRP.



Only if you are still in the 2 year window of being posted to a new base. Otherwise its out of pocket.


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## blacktriangle (5 Aug 2010)

Thanks for all the responses so far. Would it be a good idea to go talk to SISIP about this sort of thing? I wouldn't be buying until fall at the earliest but I am starting to plan long term. I'm currently on a restricted posting but I was told that restriction would be lifted once I am given permission to move out. 

I religiously put the majority of my pay into savings while living in shacks. My logic is that if with my savings each month and the money I would no longer spend on R&Q combined I could get a mortgage and still eat and cut my hair, it might be better than living in a room with 3 other guys and being ration strength. My money just sits in my bank anyways. Is 20 % a fair downpayment? 

For those that know Kingston a bit, could anyone help me out? I keep hearing of all these "bad" areas where I shouldn't buy. From what I can gather they tend to be north of Princess St. What about the subdivision north of base? I think it's called Greenwood park? It looked nice enough when I came through on the way here. 

Is it generally hard to re-sell a small (read 2 bedroom) house? What if it is almost new? 

(Oh, and if anyone has any in depth advice feel free to PM me, I hope I haven't derailed this thread too much)


Thanks in advance.


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## George Wallace (5 Aug 2010)

I lived in Grenadier Village, less than 5 min North of Base, right off Hwy 15 at the Ultramar, after LaSalle High School.  Lots of CF members live in that area.   That used to be known as Pittsburg Township, and has really grown in the last fifteen to twenty years.  Very nice homes in there.  Rumours that the CF will be renting in the new Industrial Park, so where ever you will work, will only be a short drive, or even a short walk.   A fairly decent place to live.


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## PMedMoe (5 Aug 2010)

Greenwood Park (just north of Grenadier Village) is nice too.


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## REDinstaller (5 Aug 2010)

Greenwood park aka PMQ North. The drive down 15 in the morning is quite retarded though. Plan on a 30min drive at peak times during the day. Or have a 15 min bike ride.


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## gcclarke (5 Aug 2010)

For what it's worth, Ontario's Residential Tenancies Act specifies the following:



> 7. (1) Paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 of subsection 30 (1), sections 51, 52, 54, 55, 56 and 95 to 99, subsection 100 (2) and sections 101, 102, 104, 111 to 115, 117, 120, 121, 122, 126 to 133, 140, 143, 149, 150, 151, 159, 165 and 167 do not apply with respect to a rental unit described below:
> 
> 1. A rental unit located in a residential complex owned, operated or administered by or on behalf of the Ontario Housing Corporation, *the Government of Canada* or an agency of either of them.



An index of the subsections is located here: http://www.ontariotenants.ca/law/act.phtml

If the subsection that concerns a tenant's right to store a non-road insured vehicle on the rental property is located in one of the negated sections, I don't think you have any chance to win any lawsuit. If no, then I think you have a decent chance. As for the clause stated above that people living in PMQs don't count as tenants, well, frankly, that's worth the paper it's written on. A person cannot sign away their rights in a contract. Any clause that contradicts rights specifically outlined in legislation will not be upheld in court. For example, any rental agreement / lease in Ontario that specifies that you cannot have pets will, when your landlord tries to evict you, have that clause ignored by the courts, as the Residential Tenancies Act specifies that "No Pet" provisions are void. 

So, unless someone knows about some separate federal act that might override these provisions, it's entirely possible that people living in PMQs have a bit more "rights" than they may have thought. I had a glance at the index of the NDA, and nothing leaped out at me as being pertinent.


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## Lex Parsimoniae (5 Aug 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> A person cannot sign away their rights in a contract.


 ??? I'm pretty sure that we signed away a number of 'rights' when we enrolled...


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## armyvern (5 Aug 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> So, unless someone knows about some separate federal act that might override these provisions, it's entirely possible that people living in PMQs have a bit more "rights" than they may have thought. I had a glance at the index of the NDA, and nothing leaped out at me as being pertinent.



Federally owned housing is not just applicable to the DND and CF --- 

DAOD 5024-0, DND Living Accommodation that references the following links:

Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act

Federal Real Property Regulations

Treasury Board Policy on Management of Real Property

DND Living Accommodation Instruction

the 



> 10.  DND Living Accommodation - Conditions of Occupancy
> 10.1  General
> Occupancy is subject to a number of conditions. These conditions are contained in a document called the "Conditions of Occupancy”, which is available through the Managing Authority.
> 
> ...



That, in turn, links us to:

Isolated Posts and Government Housing Directive  (IPGHD)



> Part VI - Government Housing
> 6.1 General6.1.1 To carry out its responsibilities, the Government of Canada must be able to house employees in all parts of the country. Employees are normally responsible for securing their own accommodation. It is not the intent of the directive to provide government housing to employees who own residential accommodation in the location.
> ...
> 6.5 Occupancy Agreement
> ...



Annex L states in the generic Occupany Agreement:



> ...Occupants must park in designated parking areas. The Government shall have the right to remove any vehicle parked in other areas and costs for vehicle removal and restoration of area, will be the responsibility of the occupant.
> 5.Nothing shall be done or permitted which will create a fire hazard. This shall include the following:
> ...
> ...6.The occupant shall not allow ashes, garbage, unserviceable vehicles or other loose objectionable material to accumulate in or about the building, yard or passages on the premises
> ...


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## gcclarke (6 Aug 2010)

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> ??? I'm pretty sure that we signed away a number of 'rights' when we enrolled...



Well, not really. It's not the contract that we signed that governs whether or not we have those "rights". It's the National Defence Act. If we had just signed a contract that stated all the provisions without the existance of the NDA, those clauses of the contract wouldn't be enforcable in court.


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## armyvern (6 Aug 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Well, not really. It's not the contract that we signed that governs whether or not we have those "rights". It's the National Defence Act. If we had just signed a contract that stated all the provisions without the existance of the NDA, those clauses of the contract wouldn't be enforcable in court.



In the case of Government housing for employees, it's the Federal Real Property and Federal Immovables Act that governs. I linked it below ... it's more confusing than anything I've seen put out by the CF or DND!!


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## DirtyDog (6 Aug 2010)

You should've just parked it in the parking lots at the G lines.  I've seen derelict vehicles parked there for over a year at a time, flat tires and all.  Infact, I towed a few out of the way to free up prime parking spots.


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## Pusser (6 Aug 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Only if you are still in the 2 year window of being posted to a new base. Otherwise its out of pocket.



Correct.  The original post (at least the one on this tangent) implied that the individual was well within that window.

On another note, SISIP Financial Services are more about long term (i.e. retirement) planning.  I'm not sure what they could do for you in a more short term scenario such as this.  Be careful about investing any down payment money in the interim.  You don't want to put it into an investment that will penalize you if you take it out too soon.  Also keep in mind that many long term investment plans will actually lose money in the short term (and return big in the long term).  

On the size of the down payment, keep in mind that anything less than 25% will require you to take out mortgage default insurance with CMHC.  If the CF is covering your costs, this is a claimable expense (especially if this is your first house).  When you are posted and go to buy a replacement house in your new location, you can only claim that part of mortgage default insurance that you would pay if you transfer ALL your equity into the replacement property.  I know that thinking of buying your next house when you're still thinking of buying the first one seems a bit far ahead of yourself, but forewarned is forearmed!  The rule of thumb on posting is if you want the CF to cover the entire cost of mortgage default insurance is to ensure you transfer all your equity to the new house (ie. don't skim off the top to buy a new car).  However, if you put 25% or more down on your house, there is no Mortgage Default Insurance and this problem goes away.

On a final note, do not confuse Mortgage Default Insurance with Mortgage Life Insurance.  MDI is required by law if you do not have a down payment of at least 25%.  Mortgage life insurance is something the bank will try to sell you (yes, you pay for it and it is NOT claimable from the CF under any circumstances).  Essentially, it pays off the mortgage if you die.  A far better deal is to take out SISIP Optional Group Term Insurance (OGTI) for at least the value of the mortgage.  It's a lot cheaper and a better deal.  Then if you die, your heir will have enough money to pay off the mortgage.  The bonus is that the longer you live, the less the remaining balance on the mortgage will be, which means the more actual cash in your heir's pocket - you may not want to explain that to your heir though ;D  The life insurance your mortgage lender will try to sell you will only pay off the mortgage with nothing left over.


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## jsolutions_response (4 Oct 2010)

Is there any CFHA in or near Windsor, ON?


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## Task (4 Oct 2010)

I don't think so...

I found this link that shows where they are available.
http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/hl-el/hl-el-eng.aspx


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## savorymoose (2 Nov 2010)

I'm starting my 3's soon and hope to be posted to Ottawa around March-April  i was wondering what the pmq's are like around there and their price...pictures would also help a lot. I currently like in the pmq apartments in Halifax but would prefer a house. Any help would be very much appreciated


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## acooper (2 Nov 2010)

Your best bet for the PMQs is to check out http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/hl-el/ottawa-eng.aspx. When the time gets closer to when you intend to apply for a PMQ, then use the search available housing link to see what's there. We had to wait about a week or two after applying before getting an offer on a PMQ.

We ended up in the SHHO housing, though. I don't know your family situation, but for us the SHHO is just fine. Rent is cheaper, and we got an end unit 3 bed townhouse. I haven't lived longer than a week there, but my husband has been in it since July and it's working out fine.


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## George Wallace (3 Nov 2010)

The PMQs in Ottawa are the same as the PMQs at most other Bases.  If you have seen one Base, you have pretty much seen them all.


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## jpljpl (3 Jan 2011)

Wow - thats quite a bit!
I am heading out to Kingston next month for a CT posting and applied for CFHA and didnt know it would be that much.
Mind you, i am single and not asking for a lot of space.

Are there any other living options for a single guy ?
Any good-value single appts or areas off base / close to the base or on a convenient bus route (preferably bus#12) ?


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## blacktriangle (3 Jan 2011)

I have a 3 bdrm PMQ there, and it's actually not bad at all. Try to get into the apartments if you can...there are quite a few singles living there, and the rent isn't much, especially if you find someone to move in with.  It takes me about 15 minutes to walk to work (at least from the few times I've done it...haven't lived there much due to courses, taskings and lve) and driving takes only a few minutes. 

Short of buying my own house north of the base in Grenadier Village/ Greenwood park, the PMQs seemed to be the best option for myself.


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## kratz (6 Jan 2011)

Just received, "The letter" from CFHA this week. Our monthly RHU rate is going up $2 per month starting in April 2011, here in Borden. That's not a large increase, so it's not too bad this time around.


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## PuckChaser (6 Jan 2011)

Second letter in Kingston, no increase in RHU cost. Only increase was $1 a month for water.


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## GAP (6 Jan 2011)

I'd have to look, but it looks like Wpg went up about $21 and the water rate went up.


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## smale436 (6 Jan 2011)

I started off in April 2008 in Cold Lake paying $695 (+water) for a 11/2 storey duplex with garage. April 09,10,11 increases have been +100, +40, +50 respectively. This is the first year water has gone up in three years. Up a whopping $1.10 per month. So April 2011 will put me at $930.94 (but the roommate pays half of that). Even without the roommate though I never had a problem as a Private paying the bills. Granted I don't have kids, don't drink away my pay at Legends every weekend and drive a ten year old car. I think we have it good compared to the many civvies in Edmonton paying $1200 for one bedroom apartments on a gross yearly income of $25-35000. Plus I back onto the woods, albeit a noisy quad trail as well, and have only one next-door neighbour. Plus the 5 minute drive to work is nice. I could buy but choose not to right now. But I'm saving in the meantime unlike the people in Q's here who say "we don't make enough" and "the rent is too high" yet all have a new truck in the driveway along with an RV, motorbike, boat, quad, and/or ski-doo. My current neighbour actually has all of those things.
    CFHA up here is very reasonable. I've had prompt service. No it isn't Mike Holmes quality work that's for sure but you get what you pay for and I'm not paying for it. The people I know up here who have nothing good to say about CFHA are the ones with absurd requests. Such as my co-worker who thought there was too much noise (in a duplex) from the neighbour's tv so the two of them wanted CFHA to tear down the common wall and re-insulate it. There seems to be a correlation to the service you receive depending on how you treat the ladies at the office. And rightly so.


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## Pusser (7 Jan 2011)

Years ago, the most common request from the PMQs in Halifax was not for more bedrooms or square footage, but for more parking spaces (one each for the car, second car, RV, boat, ATV,etc.)


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## sta1wart (9 Jan 2011)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I started off in April 2008 in Cold Lake paying $695 (+water) for a 11/2 storey duplex with garage. April 09,10,11 increases have been +100, +40, +50 respectively. This is the first year water has gone up in three years. Up a whopping $1.10 per month. So April 2011 will put me at $930"
> 
> _*That's over a 30% increase in rent over 3 years! That's what everyone in the q's in Cold Lake is upset with. I appreciate that any maintenance stuff gets handled pretty quickly... usually, but 30%..... come on.  And as for your neighbour with all the toys, maybe he works a second job, believe me when I say I know tons of guys out there doing that.*_


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## smale436 (9 Jan 2011)

Your numbers make sense. Unfortunately the rates, as high as they are, are still a lot better than the alternative prices of renting anything OFF base in Cold Lake. Apartments are minimum $1000, condos and basement suites often averaging $1200. Our PLD is 320 for the full rate which I think deserves an adjustment. Maybe not as high as Edmonton, but an adjustment nonetheless. 

   He may very well have a second job to pay for those toys. Never talked too him so I don't know. 90% of the time you get a pizza delivered here it's by a CF member. Unfortunately for all the ones financing their toys with part-time jobs, there are just as many that get into the "trap" when they first get here as brand new privates. Off they go to buy a Hemi Ram and a 9 grand quad that ends up on kijiji a year later. Then those same privates (and some Cpls who have been drawing spec pay for years and should know better) sheepishly admit when being invited to wings at North 54 2 days before payday that they "can't go due to lack of dough." I hate to say that I have had to help friends out of jams more than a few times. One got "advised" to consolidate everything at Citi Financial. I found out the hard way how that place works when it used to be called Avco. Not good.


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## Pusser (10 Jan 2011)

One of the things that many people, both inside and out of the CF, don't seem to realize, is that PMQs are not supposed to be cheap.  Access to PMQs is not part of our pay and benefits package and so government policy is that people living in them must pay market rate.  PLD is the benefit which is supposed to offset this.

The reason we have seen huge increases at times is because either the market rate has increased substantially in the same time period or, as has happened in several cases, PMQ rates were kept artificially low for a period of time.  This was often for good reasons, but it still skirted government policy.  Eventually, all honeymoons must come to an end and so PMQ rates in some cases will have to be raised significantly.


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jan 2011)

I'd agree if they had been well maintainted over the years and if they were on par with the local market quality.  Having to pay 300$ a month on Heating Costs on a 800 sq ft house is simply not normal.


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## smale436 (10 Jan 2011)

Really? That's nuts. I have been on the budget plan and have been paying 75-90 per month all year for the last two years.


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## SupersonicMax (10 Jan 2011)

CDNAIRFORCE: That's when I was in Cold Lake.  I was paying 20-30$ a month in the summer, 300$ in Dec-Jan-Feb.  Somewhere in the middle during the other months.  It's not normal for such a small house.  They are very, very poorly insulated.  I did not keep my heat very high.  15-16 when I was out of the house, 20 when in the house.


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## George Wallace (10 Jan 2011)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> Really? That's nuts. I have been on the budget plan and have been paying 75-90 per month all year for the last two years.



You are paying over twelve months, where Max may only be paying for three or four months.  Now compare.


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## George Wallace (10 Jan 2011)

It is a valid point though that these costs are outrageous.  I lived in the ESQs in Gagetown when they removed the siding under our bathroom window to repair the roof over the kitchen door.  No wonder it was cold in the winter time - there was absolutenly NO insulation in the wall.  Drywall and 2X4 was all that was showing when the siding was removed.


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## smale436 (10 Jan 2011)

Seen. I did the "pay whatever the bill was" for awhile and then it became unmanageable, hence the benefits f the budget plan. I think Alberta gets you over the barrel with their utility bills for sure. When I lived in Manitoba (where the rates are some of the lowest in NA) I was paying just for the usage. Here they stick you with a tonne of fixed charges such as administrative fees, distribution and transmission charges, etc as the company (Direct Energy) that sells the gas and electricity is different from Atco who owns the power lines/pipelines. 

  For example, in November my total power bill (if I wasn't on the budget) would have been $65.00. $6.00 of that was actual "power". The rest was all fees. The following month I used 3x as much kilowatts of power and the fixed fees more than doubled yet the "power usage" was up by only $5.00, resulting in a total bill of nearly $110.00


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## GAP (10 Jan 2011)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> Seen. I did the "pay whatever the bill was" for awhile and then it became unmanageable, hence the benefits f the budget plan. I think Alberta gets you over the barrel with their utility bills for sure. When I lived in Manitoba (where the rates are some of the lowest in NA) I was paying just for the usage. Here they stick you with a tonne of fixed charges such as administrative fees, distribution and transmission charges, etc as the company (Direct Energy) that sells the gas and electricity is different from Atco who owns the power lines/pipelines.



Manitoba finally grew up and is now charging all those things, and probably sometimes more.....mind, just got the hydro/gas bill today. With company over, lights on all over, computers galore, heat at 20....gas was 124/hydro 152...about half of the house I last lived in....


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## kratz (5 Mar 2011)

CFHA here is cutting back on service, noticeably. We called them when the ceiling paint boiled and peeled due to water damage. They sent a plumber to ensure the damage was not imminent and that is it. Housing informed us, they will not send anyone to fix the damage until the new FY to ensure they can pay their contracts until the end of the FY. 

This is the first time we have ever heard housing say this. Since this time last year, I have been stating that we are back to another "decade of darkness". This is another chink confirming that impression.


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## Sparkplugs (10 Mar 2011)

Same issues here -- we have black mold growing in the bathroom ceiling -- I only found it because the fan fell off the ceiling.   :  The bathrub is also rusted through, and I found that when they came in to re-caulk it after all the caulking cracked off, and they foudn this spot that had been painted over, but it was just a giant rust hole-in-training.  None of this stuff bothered me that much, but now we've got a baby on the way, and I wish there was more I could do. 

They came to do our 'annual' inspection, and we brought all this stuff up, and it got shrugged off.  "You don't like it, move out." We do like the cost of the Q, except the winter heating, but the rest of it, is allowing us to save up for a house on the next posting.  I don't want to buy a home and then get posted a year later.


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## PuckChaser (11 Mar 2011)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> They came to do our 'annual' inspection, and we brought all this stuff up, and it got shrugged off.



You get an annual inspection? Must be nice. No one's looked at my Q since I moved in, or only specific things we call to get repaired.


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## Sparkplugs (11 Mar 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You get an annual inspection? Must be nice. No one's looked at my Q since I moved in, or only specific things we call to get repaired.



It was in quotation marks because it's been almost three years, and this is the first I've heard about an inspection.  It was mostly to see if the roof was caving in, because we're one of a few Q's that hasn't gotten a new roof or windows this year.  It was rather underwhelming, and they didn't really look at anything, to be honest with you.


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## Franko (11 Mar 2011)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Same issues here -- we have black mold growing in the bathroom ceiling....
> 
> They came to do our 'annual' inspection, and we brought all this stuff up, and it got shrugged off.  "You don't like it, move out."



Report all of this through your CoC and, if you can afford it, get the mold tested. If it's toxic, go and make a formal complaint.

I know of a few past issues with CFHA and if you go the legal route, you can get results and possibly make some positive changes. 

A serving member shouldn't have to fight for basic services.


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## PMedMoe (11 Mar 2011)

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> Report all of this through your CoC and, if you can afford it, get the mold tested. If it's toxic, go and make a formal complaint.



And keep in mind that not all mold is toxic.  Mold appears pretty much everywhere and there are ways to prevent it.


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## Sparkplugs (11 Mar 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And keep in mind that not all mold is toxic.  Mold appears pretty much everywhere and there are ways to prevent it.



I'm aware of not all mold being toxic, I just mentioned the colour.  I know there are many ventilation issues in the pmq's, and I'm sure that the fan in the bathroom not being vented properly is the cause of this.  It's not on the ceiling, it's up inside the ceiling, so it's not a lack of cleanliness or anything.

I'll definitely have a closer look and make another phone call.  

Thanks for the advice, guys.  Much appreciated.


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## Franko (11 Mar 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And keep in mind that not all mold is toxic.  Mold appears pretty much everywhere and there are ways to prevent it.



True enough, but if they have yougins, reactions could be severe to small amounts.


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## PMedMoe (11 Mar 2011)

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> True enough, but if they have yougins, reactions could be severe to small amounts.



That's true, however, they'd more than likely have those reactions (allergic) while outside as well.  There's all kinds of mold spores floating around in the air that aren't visible.  Just for the record, from a PMed point of view, if mold is visible, that's enough reason for remediation.  We don't even care what type it is and won't sample.  Costs too much $$$$.   :nod:

On that note, I'm thankful we (PMed) have nothing to do with the PMQs RHUs.


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## tuffbutterfly (29 Aug 2011)

I was wondering if anyone would know what to do when you are having major neighbour problems when living in the Qs?  Can anything be done? My family and I are experiencing some pretty big harassment but nothing that I can prove (of course).  Is moving my family my only alternative?  I've tried talking to CFHA, MFRC, MPs.  The issue is animal related (they have three very loud dogs).  After a year of having them do nothing, I finally complained and now they are resorting to playing a dog whistle sound everytime we let our dog out (and throughout the night).  We actually have to keep our windows closed at night to keep our dog from flipping out!  My husband has only been in the military for a year and a half and this is our first time living in base housing.  This was not the image of the tight-knit military community that I had believed we would be moving in to.


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## PuckChaser (29 Aug 2011)

You'd have to prove they're using the dog whistle, and then you'd have some recourse.

Keep in mind the CF community is a microcosm of society. We have our share of idiots that live on base, but you'll find most are generally friendly and good neighbours.


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## armyvern (29 Aug 2011)

tuffbutterfly said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone would know what to do when you are having major neighbour problems when living in the Qs?  Can anything be done? My family and I are experiencing some pretty big harassment but nothing that I can prove (of course).  Is moving my family my only alternative?  I've tried talking to CFHA, MFRC, MPs.  The issue is animal related (they have three very loud dogs).  After a year of having them do nothing, I finally complained and now they are resorting to playing a dog whistle sound everytime we let our dog out (and throughout the night).  We actually have to keep our windows closed at night to keep our dog from flipping out!  My husband has only been in the military for a year and a half and this is our first time living in base housing.  This was not the image of the tight-knit military community that I had believed we would be moving in to.




Sorry for that; I didn't know the CF screened out normal people now. We have been, and always will be, a cross section of the Canadian population. Seems you have an idiot living next door. Same thing could happen outside of the Qs and outside of the CF in an apartment or house downtown --- it has zero to do with it being "military" or "base housing". 

Dog-whistle: how do your neighbours' big three loud dogs react to it being whistled day and night? I am curious as to how it would not affect their very own dogs too?


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## Cpl_Kellehar (5 Jan 2012)

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> "There really Is 'No Life Like It' if you live on base"
> October 15, 2003
> Imagine how you'd feel paying rent for a house or an apartment â â€œ your home â â€œ that was so poorly insulated your family's food froze in the cupboards in the winter.   Imagine the risks to you and your children's health arising from the black mould on the walls and water smelling of sewage or under a long-term boil water advisory.
> 
> ...



Pretty much sums up the slums in comox, and also that you are powerless to get resolution when CFHA's contractors damage your personal property as was the case when they damaged my motorcycles with brown overspray.



			
				tuffbutterfly said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone would know what to do when you are having major neighbour problems when living in the Qs?  Can anything be done? My family and I are experiencing some pretty big harassment but nothing that I can prove (of course).  Is moving my family my only alternative?  I've tried talking to CFHA, MFRC, MPs.  The issue is animal related (they have three very loud dogs).  After a year of having them do nothing, I finally complained and now they are resorting to playing a dog whistle sound everytime we let our dog out (and throughout the night).  We actually have to keep our windows closed at night to keep our dog from flipping out!  My husband has only been in the military for a year and a half and this is our first time living in base housing.  This was not the image of the tight-knit military community that I had believed we would be moving in to.



If you have a mayor or somthing thats equal take it up with them, I was dealing with almost the same issue here in comox and that seemed to help after they threatened to take action against him.


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## Pusser (6 Jan 2012)

Cpl_Kellehar said:
			
		

> Pretty much sums up the slums in comox, and also that you are powerless to get resolution when CFHA's contractors damage your personal property as was the case when they damaged my motorcycles with brown overspray.



Talk to your local AJAG about a "Claim against the Crown."  If your property is damaged by something DND, it's Special Operating Agencies (i.e. CFHA) and/or its contractors have done or neglected to do, they can be held liable.  

I have to ask though, did they warn you that work was going to take place and ask you to move your stuff accordingly?


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## Sub_Guy (19 Jan 2012)

cypres78 said:
			
		

> Comox has horrible PMQ's and their CFHA is more then useless. I had so many issues and bad experiences that it convinced me to never rent again....not that that's necessarily a bad thing.



I have never had any issues with CFHA in Comox.  They have been more than helpful with every problem I bring up, and issues are usually resolved within a few days.

I can't really compare them to other CFHA's, but considering I have never felt like climbing over the counter and going postal on them.  I'd say that is a good thing.

As for the PMQ's sure some are older, but there are a few nice remodeled RHU's.


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## CountDC (27 Feb 2012)

CFHA work:

2007 - told front steps would be replaced and was repeated every year I asked.  Done in 2011.

Dec 2010 told shed would be installed Feb 2011.  IAW letter moved my shed (and caused some damage as it was frozen to the ground already) and some fencing.  Still no shed.

Summer 2011 

Central AC - done but like almost always late.  For some reason moved from top of list to bottom of list as they had to order parts??? Don't understand that one as all the units got the same thing.  Don't know if it works as it was too cold to test by the time they installed it.

New water heater - on time!!  Water heater sucks though.  Even set to max level the water doesn't get very hot (I can put my hand under it without getting burned).  Doing dishes and laundry can be a pain as the water heater can't keep up.

driveway replaced - nada

backyard fenced - nada

Hole in kitchen ceiling fixed - nada

Crappy neighbours - moved!!!!!  (at least something good happened)

Inspections?? - oh!! that is when they come, set off the fire alarms, point out things such as the hole in the ceiling with a "we will have to get that looked at" and leave.

Smelly drains - still there.  Told to pour bottle of javax down it - didn't work.

Rent increase - every year.


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## PPCLI Guy (27 Feb 2012)

Central Air???????


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## PMedMoe (27 Feb 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Central Air???????



I was thinking the same thing........


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## armyvern (27 Feb 2012)

Fences?? Are they normal now too??  ???


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## PMedMoe (27 Feb 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Fences?? Are they normal now too??  ???



And sheds, too!


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## PuckChaser (27 Feb 2012)

Driveway replaced? I have an anti-tank ditch in mine and apparently its for drainage... I think there are a lot more PMQs in worse shape than yours, Count.


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## CountDC (29 Feb 2012)

In Canada yes, here no.

Most units have been renovated and upgraded including the one attached to ours.  I am the last hold out with the single bathroom, peeling paint, holier than thou ceiling.

I would have preferred some basic maintenance over the AC/Water heater/driveway/shed/fencing but understand how the budgetting world works.  Don't have any money to fix that there tank but we can give you a new one of these corkscrews that only cost $10k.

AC - already have my own,  water heater - the old one worked better, driveway - use it everyday no problem, shed and fence - have my own (although I would now have to replace about 10 feet of the fence).

Stop the glamcosm projects and give me what I really need - ceiling fixed and installation in the walls.


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## PuckChaser (29 Feb 2012)

That's how CFHA works. They are gonna wait till you move, or ask to move so they don't have to pay for it. Good friend of mine is stuck in a duplex that is literally falling apart and is waiting to be torn down. They won't move him into a new PMQ, they want him to ask to move so they're not out the cost of moving. He has 2 neighbours on his block, the rest are vacant lots after the PMQs all got taken down.


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## chriscalow (7 Apr 2012)

Has anyone had any luck moving from PMQ to PMQ on the same base?  The one we got has mold issues and it is causing my son to have breathing problems.  It is one of 2 on our street that didn't have any snow on the roof all winter (no we aren't running a grow op).  

This is in Petawawa.

Thanks.


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## aesop081 (7 Apr 2012)

Have you engaged your Chain of Command ?

I would get paperwork from your son's doctor and engage your battalion CO on this (if CFHA is giving you a hard time, of course).


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## startbutton (7 Apr 2012)

Hi there.
My family and I did do  move from PMQ to PMQ on the base we live at now. We had some health issues to and because they said it would cost more then their budget they would have to move us at their cost . But others on the base have had to move themselves when dealing with issues such as mold. If you have contacted housing and they are not helping you or seem to be giving you the run around, yu should go through your chain of command mine here when I was having my probs were ready to have the PMEDs come in and do their tests and write up a report. 
Hope you can get your probs solved quickly


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## chriscalow (7 Apr 2012)

Thanks for the quick replies. I haven't brought this up officially as we just decided today that we want to pursue this option. Just wanted to get a feel for it from my fine friends at army.ca

We are fully prepared to move ourselves and are not looking for them to pay for the move. Just the authorization to do so. Thanks again.


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## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2012)

startbutton said:
			
		

> yu should go through your chain of command mine here when I was having my probs were ready to have the PMEDs come in and do their tests and write up a report.



And unfortunately, Petawawa is wrong in using the PMed Techs to do this.  CFHA is its own entity and should be hiring a civilian company to come in and do it.  Glad I stood my ground on that when I was in Kingston or we'd have been in the PMQs all the time.   :


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## Stoker (8 Apr 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And unfortunately, Petawawa is wrong in using the PMed Techs to do this.  CFHA is its own entity and should be hiring a civilian company to come in and do it.  Glad I stood my ground on that when I was in Kingston or we'd have been in the PMQs all the time.   :



Wouldn't CFHA drag their feet like they do with everything else, at least with PMED its a military entity and should action it fast. I don't know what PMED is doing in Pet but they action things fast in Halifax.


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## startbutton (8 Apr 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Wouldn't CFHA drag their feet like they do with everything else, at least with PMED its a military entity and should action it fast. I don't know what PMED is doing in Pet but they action things fast in Halifax.



Yes CFHA does tend to drag their feet on somethings .... especially if it involves money. The CoC was going to get the PMeds to come in and do their tests because of that very reason and they were fedup with it , funny thing is when housing found out is when they moved very fast to rectify the problems .


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## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Wouldn't CFHA drag their feet like they do with everything else, at least with PMED its a military entity and should action it fast. I don't know what PMED is doing in Pet but they action things fast in Halifax.



All I'm saying is that using the PMeds for this kind of thing _could_ be considered a conflict of interest.  I'd be curious to find out who pays for it.

And as I said, if we had done it in Kingston, we would have never got anything else done.


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## PuckChaser (8 Apr 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And as I said, if we had done it in Kingston, we would have never got anything else done.



Probably a good comment on the state of the PMQs in Kingston.  ;D


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## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Probably a good comment on the state of the PMQs in Kingston.  ;D



Or the people living in them.


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## PuckChaser (8 Apr 2012)

Can't argue there, I've seen small zoos kept in PMQs....


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## Disenchantedsailor (9 Apr 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And unfortunately, Petawawa is wrong in using the PMed Techs to do this.  CFHA is its own entity and should be hiring a civilian company to come in and do it.  Glad I stood my ground on that when I was in Kingston or we'd have been in the PMQs all the time.   :


Yes CFHA is their own entity but the structures are still owned by the Base Commander and Base Engineer, they are entirely within their authority to have a PMed inspection of the property as any other CF controlled facility.


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## PMedMoe (9 Apr 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> Yes CFHA is their own entity but the structures are still owned by the Base Commander and Base Engineer, they are entirely within their authority to have a PMed inspection of the property as any other CF controlled facility.



Normally only in extreme circumstances, but hey, I don't make the rules.   :dunno:

The CF is _not_ responsible for the health of dependents.


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## Disenchantedsailor (9 Apr 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Normally only in extreme circumstances, but hey, I don't make the rules.   :dunno:
> 
> The CF is _not_ responsible for the health of dependents.


Absolutely and this is where we fall into the cyclical debate.  The CF is not responsible for dependant health care, this is a known fact (although the CF Member lives there to and the CF is responsible for his/her health).  The CF is however liable for the health conditions of all facilities under their control.


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## PMedMoe (9 Apr 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> The CF is however liable for the health conditions of all facilities under their control.



As I said, I don't make the rules.  Every base is different.  In Kingston, they don't touch the PMQs.  In Ottawa, only self-help housing gets looked at.  Any other base, I don't know.

And nine times out of ten, there is either: a) nothing wrong with the PMQ; or b) recommendations are made and not acted upon by the occupant.

In lots of cases, the people just want to move because they don't like the PMQ.  At least, that's been my experience.  In one case, I'm pretty sure the occupant was trying to blame _all_ of his family's health problems on the CF.


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## Disenchantedsailor (9 Apr 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> As I said, I don't make the rules.  Every base is different.  In Kingston, they don't touch the PMQs.  In Ottawa, only self-help housing gets looked at.  Any other base, I don't know.
> 
> And nine times out of ten, there is either: a) nothing wrong with the PMQ; or b) recommendations are made and not acted upon by the occupant.
> 
> In lots of cases, the people just want to move because they don't like the PMQ.  At least, that's been my experience.  In one case, I'm pretty sure the occupant was trying to blame _all_ of his family's health problems on the CF.


That my man I will not argue with you on at all.


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## PMedMoe (9 Apr 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> That my man I will not argue with you on at all.



Which is one of the main reasons we try not to get involved.


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## chriscalow (9 Apr 2012)

Well things just got out of hand real quick. My son has had asthma flare ups everyday for a week since being back to the Q from a month away visiting family while I was on tasking. This morning, full on asthma attack. Wife fed up. They are moving back with family until I can get this sorted. I can't blame her. It's hard to watch a 19 month old baby struggle for air. 

I'm not blaming anyone for his condition, but it truly seems that this rhu is certainly affecting him. I really hope housing helps me out on this. I don't want any money from them, just a new Q in a better state of repair. I am very anxious about what they are going to say tomorrow. 

This post isn't a poke at anyone, just a nervous father venting.


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## chriscalow (9 Apr 2012)

The following is what I sent to CFHA today.  Am I being unreasonable making this request? .....

Hello, I am writing to request a new PMQ.  I currently live at ----------------, and since moving in last fall, we have found this unit to be unsuitable. There are a number of issues, and I have attached photographs as applicable.

My first concern is that my wife, and son have mild asthma, and it is definitely irritated by mould found in our PMQ.  My son more so, being an infant, though my wife has noticed a prominent increase in the use of her medication as well.  We can provide a note from my son's Doctor verifying this if needed.  A PMQ in a better state of repair could alleviate some of his suffering.  We have not been home for the last month, and he went without issue, and within a 24 hour period of being back to this PMQ, he has had flare ups daily.  This morning, 9 Apr 12, we woke up to him having a full blown asthma attack, and spent the day trying to care for him.  Once he was removed from the RHU, his condition improved dramatically, allowing his medication to take hold.  We have tried to clean the mould IAW the suggestions in the CMHC link from your web page, but the mould returns.

 Heating this unit has proven very inefficient, all winter, this unit did not have any snow on the roof.  This is an indication of major heat loss through the roof, which is quite run down.  The bedrooms upstairs were absolutely frigid, to the point that we ended up moving my son downstairs for the winter months, and purchasing a portable electric heater for our room, just to keep it tolerable.  Between paying to heat the outdoors, and the added cost of running the portable heater, our hydro bill doubled for the month of January.  We had done the commercial window treatments on all the glass in the house, to little effect.  

My wife has begun packing and is on the verge of leaving over this matter.  We spent Christmas leave away from the PMQ with our family, and my son had no asthmatic reactions.  She came back to -------------- with me following leave, the flare ups continued, and so returned to her famliy's residence mid February, and stayed down there as I was on a tasking.  We returned -----------, in hopes that opening windows etc, would help and with the warmer weather we could do that.  He is still reacting.  She is talking about moving herself and my son down home until this is resolved, and I really can't do anything but agree, it's my son's health.

 We have found units empty right across the street, and have looked them over.  I understand that there are several reasons for why there are empty RHU's across the north and south townsites, and understand completely, however, we have found them to be a great improvement over what we currently are dealing with.  Specifically --------------.  As far as I can see from the outside, they appear to be in much better condition than my current RHU.  They appear to be much cleaner. The open concept style would allow us to keep a closer eye on our son from where we are to where ever he goes tearing off to.  The yards are fenced in, and would allow him to play safely and secure outside without having dogs running up on him in our own yard (he is also allergic to dogs, causing more asthma issues).  I still have not determined where these dogs come from, but if I do, SPCA will be getting called very quick.  The roofing appears to be relatively new, and the exterior has been recently finished as well.  

 We noticed that the floors are somewhat worn, but we have no problem with this, and would not request that any work be done on them, in order to facilitate a move asap, with no cost to your organization.  We are prepared to take one of these units "as is", as long as we can take a quick look inside to ensure there is no mould issues. All we are asking for is to exchange the keys.  We feel that a move across the street would greatly improve our quality of life by allowing us to have a safer environment for our son to grow up.  It would be our cheapest option as we would not need to hire a truck or anything and that would help us out as well.

We are not looking to have CFHA assist us in a move in anyway, financially or otherwise.  Only to allocate a PMQ that is safe for my son, more suitible to our family and to enhance our quality of life.  We very much enjoy living on base, and especially the area we are in, with the close proximity to the park and that there are several young families on our street.

Thank you very much for your consideration in this matter.


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## trenchfoot (18 Jul 2012)

Receive any news back on being able to get a new PMQ?


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## dapaterson (24 Jul 2012)

A letter to the editor from today's Fredericton Daily Gleaner, on the state of PMQs:

This is in response to Courtney Wall's commentary published last week about the state of PMQs for military families in Oromocto. 

What an incredible load of self-entitled tripe! I have close to four decades of military service and I have not heard so much nonsense in a long time. 

PMQ communities have gone downhill, but it is not the fault of the Canadian Forces Housing Agency. It has a lot to do with the residents themselves, from pets roaming at large, to loud music all hours of the day, to throwing one's garbage out the front door and expecting someone else to take it to the curb, tearing apart cars on the front lawn, not to mention vandalizing houses while drunk, and numerous other social ills the modern PMQ resident seems to be afflicted with. 

These ills were curbed before as units were inspected inside and out annually to made sure tenants were living up to their rental agreements. Those who did not faced military justice. 

This does not happen anymore. But that is not CFHA's fault. That is the fault of the well paid, over entitled residents who seem to feel they have Charter rights to a PMQ because they are in the military. 

Mould is an issue and one that CFHA is using its limited resources to correct. 

If you did not destroy the lawn, break windows and the hundreds of other things that residents do and taxpayers pay for, there would be a lot more money for mould issues. 

If you went and got an O-ring for that leaking tap instead having of CFHA pay $100 to have a plumber do it, there would be more money for mould. Choices, people! 

Ms. Wall goes on about the three strikes policy. Imagine, your landlord holding you accountable for not paying the utilities, making you haul away the wrecked car in the driveway or not allowing you to wreck your taxpayer-funded lawn. 

The horror! The fact is, the utility company will cut off a PMQ and not re-connect until the bill is paid. That means, Ms. Wall, if you do not pay your bills and then move out, that PMQ cannot be rented until the bill is paid. So guess who has to take on that irresponsibility - we taxpayers. 

If you ruin a lawn or break windows, guess who - we taxpayers. 

"It's a military dwelling made for military personnel to live in. Yet they can throw us out." It is not a right! It is a privilege, and judging by my recent drive through the PMQs, a very abused one indeed. 

Try living in a rental in Fredericton. You have to give damage deposit, first and last month rent, and you are expected to paint the place if you damage the paint. You are expected to mow the lawn more than once a year. 

It never ceases to amaze me how some soldiers can afford BMWs, Harleys and $60K trucks, but cannot claim ownership of a $100 lawn mower. 

The fact is that PMQs are long past their use. There is no one in the military making less than the average New Brunswicker and they all manage to pay $800 rents and $1,000 mortgages. It seems to me that a little responsibility and a little less entitlement might make a better person. 

Yes, you will not have a Harley or BMW or both, but you will experience pride of ownership and learn to look after something. At least, if you want to get your investment back, you will have to look after it! 

Wayne Fraser lives in Oromocto.


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## PuckChaser (24 Jul 2012)

Mr Wayne Fraser needs to get off his high horse. I'm sure there's quite a few people who take care of their PMQs only to have them fall apart around them. You put people in a ghetto with crappy homes for $900 a month, and they'll treat them like crap. You give them a new(er) PMQ and they'll gladly pay a little more to rent it.

My backyard floods (2-3 ft of water) in the spring because the drainage ditch was not completed properly. According to Mr. Fraser I should fix that myself like a good soldier.

Funny thing is, the troops that are breaking windows and charging the taxpayer money are also taxpayers, and contribute just as much share to the replacement and repair of those damages as anyone else. Always love that "you belong to the taxpayer line". Surprise, we're taxpayers too.


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## dapaterson (24 Jul 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Mr Wayne Fraser needs to get off his high horse. I'm sure there's quite a few people who take care of their PMQs only to have them fall apart around them. You put people in a ghetto with crappy homes for $900 a month, and they'll treat them like crap. You give them a new(er) PMQ and they'll gladly pay a little more to rent it.



If it's so bad, move to town, and see if your landlord is anywhere near as tolerant as the CFHA - hint - he or she won't be.



> My backyard floods (2-3 ft of water) in the spring because the drainage ditch was not completed properly. According to Mr. Fraser I should fix that myself like a good soldier.



Not at all.  CFHA should be correcting that fault.



> Funny thing is, the troops that are breaking windows and charging the taxpayer money are also taxpayers, and contribute just as much share to the replacement and repair of those damages as anyone else. Always love that "you belong to the taxpayer line". Surprise, we're taxpayers too.



Troops that are breaking the windows in the Qs, parking their cars on the lawn, and refusing to mow the lawn are hooligans whose chain of command should be coming down on them like a ton of bricks so the CF can be rid of them, and replace them with professionals.


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## fraserdw (24 Jul 2012)

You should post the original letter from Courtney Wall, she had a pretty high horse too, claiming rights to this and that.  I have read both of these.  As for the tax payer, the argument is rather circular, I think in 27 years I have taken far more out of the treasury than I ever put in, unless of course you are paying 110% rate.


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## dapaterson (24 Jul 2012)

As requested, the original letter that promted the reply above, from a resident of the PMQ patch in Gagetown.

With the PMQs at CFB Gagetown being in the news a lot lately, I would like to share my experiences, as I have lived in military housing for 18 years. I also grew up in them. 

They have gone downhill since they became the responsibility of the Canadian Forces Housing Agency. 

When the military gave the houses over to CFHA, things slowly fell apart. I remember living in a house that was full of mould. It was growing everywhere - even inside cupboards, among other places. We were told to wash it and forget about it. Finally we had to get my husband's work involved to get us out of there. 

The comment about the mould testing being time-consuming and not practical don't fly. I talked to some people who said they wouldn't mind the cost coming out of the PMQ fund. But the problem is, we have no say in what we want and don't want. 

Mould is just one part of this whole disturbing trend. For those who don't know, CFHA has implemented a new "three-strikes and you're out" policy. Strikes include being close to disconnection on power, water or Enbridge Gas; not taking your outdoor car shelter down by summer; and parking on the lawn. If you get three of these, you will be thrown out of the PMQ. It's a military dwelling made for military personnel to live in. Yet they can throw us out. 

My friend who is in Afghanistan right now received a letter over there this week saying if he didn't take his car shelter down, they would evict them. His wife had talked to CFHA weeks ago and they said because he was deployed, the rule could be bent until he returned. But this week his wife got a call from her husband saying they are being evicted because of the car shelter. 

Once upon a time, living here was a dream. Your house was always looked after, no matter how small or big the project. These homes were affordable. The advent of the CFHA changed all that. 

Now the CFHA is involved in monitoring whether we pay our bills on time. Have you ever heard of a landlord who is involved in every aspect of your life like that? CFHA is allowed to call the utilities to find out if you're behind in your payments. And if you are behind in paying, it's a strike against you. 

Have you ever heard of anything so ridiculous? Welcome to our world! 

PMQs are suppose to be affordable living space for us, but they no longer are. Strikes here, strikes there. Driving by, you would think they are in good shape esthetically, but inside it's another story. 

I have cupboards in my kitchen that I can't reach without a ladder and the paint used to come off on my dishes. I asked CFHA to redo my cupboards and was told I couldn't live here while it's being done. But I found out that some people have had new cupboards put in. 

They sent someone to repaint my cupboards but they just painted over it and now the dishes stick to the cupboard. 

I know these houses were built in the 1960s, but it's time to do the upgrading inside and stop with the upgrades outside. 

People have actually started buying houses as it's just as cheap to buy as it is to rent a PMQ. Rent goes up every year and sometimes twice a year. CFHA keeps saying that it's comparable to housing in Fredericton. I assure you, the houses in Fredericton don't look like ours on the inside. 

To letter writer John Wells: I don't know if you are or were military or not, but you don't know what you're talking about. 

Mould is just scratching the surface. I could fill a whole newspaper on what happens around here. And yes, military people are still too nervous to ask for help from the media. 

Courtney Wall lives in Oromocto. Send comments to letters@dailygleaner.com.


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## PuckChaser (24 Jul 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Troops that are breaking the windows in the Qs, parking their cars on the lawn, and refusing to mow the lawn are hooligans whose chain of command should be coming down on them like a ton of bricks so the CF can be rid of them, and replace them with professionals.



I wouldn't argue that point at all, and it would solve some of the issues if career action was taken due to improper care.

Ms Wall definitely has a sense of entitlement here, as the only real issue she's made of it is the mold problem. You require active power/gas/utilities connection to have a PMQ, so I don't know what her issue is with being close to disconnection. As for the car shelters... I believe there's a story in this thread about a mbr's car being towed and destroyed because it was parked too long in a parking lot despite having valid insurance and license plates while said mbr being deployed. I don't see why the car shelter couldn't be taken down by a few buddies, but its that kind of stuff that turns people against CFHA for things that aren't CFHAs fault.


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## fraserdw (24 Jul 2012)

There is also a letter from John Wells that prompted Ms Wall's letter.  It has been interesting watching 2 retired old crusty infantry MWOs taking on little Ms Entitlement.  

I was on town council back in the day when military housing and First Nations housing were in a race to to see who could owe the most to the town without paying their arrears from water and sewage.  In the end, the town shut off water to all empty PMQs owing arrears.  No Cash, no water, no rent!  Enbridge Gas followed suit in 2009.  DND went from not being able to help recover the money to being most helpful recovering the money!

For DND, the Gagetown PMQs are a problem case as they lay outside the base, there is very little the chain of command can do as DND has agreements with the Province, RCMP and Town on the common areas and CFHA controls the PMQ itself not DND.


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## George Wallace (24 Jul 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ......... I don't see why the car shelter couldn't be taken down by a few buddies, but its that kind of stuff that turns people against CFHA for things that aren't CFHAs fault.



Exactly.  Usually when a member is deployed, their unit "Rear Party" is there to ensure that their families are taken care of ( within reason ).  Why was his unit not made aware of this and then they could have taken this action to assist his spouse to remove the shelter?


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## kratz (24 Jul 2012)

[quote author=dapaterson]Troops that are breaking the windows in the Qs, parking their cars on the lawn, and refusing to mow the lawn are hooligans whose chain of command should be coming down on them like a ton of bricks so the CF can be rid of them, and replace them with professionals.[/quote]

I've been on the community council for PMQs in the past. Yes we did handle complaints and a few times we had to go as far as the formal route and forward complaints to members chain of command. The end result from the unit was less than supportive. If I remember correctly, the situations were resolved by the individual(s) being posted soon after.


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## dapaterson (24 Jul 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Exactly.  Usually when a member is deployed, their unit "Rear Party" is there to ensure that their families are taken care of ( within reason ).  Why was his unit not made aware of this and then they could have taken this action to assist his spouse to remove the shelter?



And, taking the letter writer that their word, CFHA has a "three strikes" policy - so it wasn't the shelter that got them evicted, but the combination of the shelter left up and two other events (which she conveniently fails to discuss)...


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## dapaterson (24 Jul 2012)

kratz said:
			
		

> I've been on the community council for PMQs in the past. Yes we did handle complaints and a few times we had to go as far as the formal route and forward complaints to members chain of command. The end result from the unit was less than supportive. If I remember correctly, the situations were resolved by the individual(s) being posted soon after.



"Chain of command" doesn't end at the member's unit.

Were I to encounter such a sitaution, letter #1 would be to the unit CO, cc'ing the base commander.  Letter #2 (after an appropriate wait and no improvement) would go to the formation commander, cc'ing the unit CO and base commander.

Escalation up the chain works.


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## Pusser (24 Jul 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Exactly.  Usually when a member is deployed, their unit "Rear Party" is there to ensure that their families are taken care of ( within reason ).  Why was his unit not made aware of this and then they could have taken this action to assist his spouse to remove the shelter?



Furthermore, it is quite conceivable that the letter that went to the member was sent before the spouse had spoken to CFHA.  A second call to CFHA, politely reminding them of the previous special dispensation would likely have resolved the case.

I do not currently live in a PMQ, but I had a similar situation with the Ontario Electrical Safety Authority (who were threatening to cut off my power) over a code violation.  I was deployed and my wife was freaking out.  An email to the inspector, explaining that I was deployed and that I would resolve the situation as soon as I returned  was all that was required.  As soon as I got home, I got it sorted and all is now good.  

Despite what we often see on TV, most people in these positions of authority are not heartless ogres.  They have to be up front and honest and lay out what they *can* do if you fail to comply, but they also recognize that actually solving the problem is better, cheaper and easier than levying sanctions and so they are usually quite open to working things out.  However, you do have to approach them and talk about it.  The key is to be polite and reasonable (i.e. recognize the problem, explain the circustances that caused it and tell them how you plan to go about resolving it - complete with a timeline).  Starting the conversation with &%$#*-off *&^%$ is not likely to get you  the results you desire.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jan 2013)

Article Link

Minister MacKay And Member Or of Parliament Brian Storseth Announce Measures To Improve The Quality Of Life Of Canadian Armed Forces Families

NR 12.302 - December 30, 2012

OTTAWA – The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Mr. Brian Storseth, Member of Parliament for Westlock-St. Paul, today announced a 10 per cent reduction on a proposed rent increase for Canadian Armed Forces military house at 4 Wing Cold Lake as well as a cap on rent increases for most Privates and all Officer Cadets across Canada. 

“I am pleased to work collaboratively with Minister MacKay to deliver this important measure for the men and women who serve to defend Canada and protect Canadian interests,” said Mr. Storseth. “Today’s announcement ensures that our members know that wherever they are stationed in Canada, our government is acting in their best interests.” 

The monthly charge for military housing in Cold Lake would have increased next year by almost 9 per cent, or an average of $92, without this measure. Military housing in Cold Lake will instead have an average rent reduction of around 1 per cent. 

“Further to the measures taken at Cold Lake our government is also acting to ensure that the rent increases of most privates and officer cadets are no more than 2.21 percent across the country – in line with the average rent increase for military housing of 2.2 percent,” said Minister MacKay. “Brian Storseth continues to work tirelessly for those he represents and I thank him for his work on this file.” 

Under the authorities conferred to the Minister of National Defence, Minister MacKay acted to ensure measures are in place to minimize the impact of a rent increase on those members earning less. The Minister authorized a rent increase limit of 2.21 per cent for fiscal year 2013-2014 for Privates at the first and second pay incentives as well as Officer Cadets across Canada. This figure is in line with an average national rent increase for military housing across Canada but ensures that those earning less are not subjected to large rental variances because of local economic surges. 

Over the last ten years, Privates at the first and second pay incentives saw their monthly rate of pay increase by 27 per cent, while Officer Cadets have seen a 25 per cent increase in their monthly rate of pay. 

“The Government of Canada is using all the tools at its disposal to ensure that Canadian Armed Forces members and their families can enjoy a good quality of life, regardless of where they live in the country,” said General Tom Lawson, Chief of the Defence Staff. 

DND housing is appraised annually by the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. The appraisal is based on many factors, such as type, size, age, access to amenities, and general condition of the units. This formula allows for rent for military housing to be comparable to that charged for similar homes in the local market. 

As such, the monthly rent cannot be increased by more than $100 per month, regardless of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation’s appraisal value, and it cannot exceed 25 per cent of a family’s gross annual income, not including parking costs and costs for fuel and utilities. 

All these measures will be effective on April 1, 2013.


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## Craisome (8 Jan 2013)

I have been paying almost half my family's monthly income for my shelter charge.

I filled out the 25% paperwork and handed it in to CFHA, but they didn't answer my question.. so maybe someone here can.

Do I get back pay for the months they over changed me for rent? (almost 5 months @ 250$+  a month)


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## PMedMoe (8 Jan 2013)

I think that's a question you'll have to take up with CFHA.  The CF pay system isn't responsible for your rent.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Jan 2013)

But it is deducted directly from your CCPS/RPSR isn't it?


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## PMedMoe (8 Jan 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> But it is deducted directly from your CCPS/RPSR isn't it?



Yes, it is but I _think_ it would be up to CFHA to reimburse any overcharges.


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## Craisome (8 Jan 2013)

Ya they dodge that question like a pro..


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## west_coaster (4 Feb 2013)

I can't find this information anywhere. So I am going to ask here

I have no clue of how much privates pay in deductions before take home. Can someone please help me out with this? I just found out that my child support is going up to $300/mth and I have a family as well. Can someone please help me out with a some kind of details please.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Feb 2013)

For a PMQ?  No more than 25% of pay for shelter charges.  Your legal obligations under the Federal Child Support Guidelines don't have any bearing AFAIK.


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## ARMY_101 (15 Apr 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2013/04/14/ottawa-military-families-rent-cfb-uplands-increase.html



> *Military families see rent rise at Ottawa base*
> 
> Rent is going up for military families at Uplands near the Ottawa airport, slightly more than would be allowed under the Ontario Landlord and Tenant Act.
> 
> ...


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## PMedMoe (15 Apr 2013)

PMQ rent goes up every year.  This is news?   :


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## PuckChaser (15 Apr 2013)

PMQ rent is stupid expensive for what you get, and they're not subject to the Landlord and Tenant act in both price increase and property standards. Not really news, still glad I'm out of the PMQ mess though. I feel for anyone that isn't in the right fiscal position to get the hell out of CFHA's mafia grasp.


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## PMedMoe (16 Apr 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> PMQ rent is stupid expensive for what you get, and they're not subject to the Landlord and Tenant act in both price increase and property standards. Not really news, still glad I'm out of the PMQ mess though. I feel for anyone that isn't in the right fiscal position to get the hell out of CFHA's mafia grasp.



Agreed.  However, from the article: 



> Since 2006, the cost of rent for military families at Uplands has gone up about 40 per cent. But they still pay about 40 per cent less than they would for non-military housing in the same neighbourhood.


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## ARMY_101 (16 Apr 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Agreed.  However, from the article:



National Capital Region also doesn't get PLD, which is why the rent was supposed to be artifically low; to compensate for that.


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## PMedMoe (16 Apr 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> National Capital Region also doesn't get PLD, which is why the rent was supposed to be artifically low; to compensate for that.



Yep, I used to be posted there.  Also, some of the PMQs there are "self-help" with lower rents for certain ranks.


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## ARMY_101 (16 Apr 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Yep, I used to be posted there.  Also, some of the PMQs there are "self-help" with lower rents for certain ranks.



Understood. The media article seems to blend both the complaints of SHHO with the CFHA houses, both of which are located at Uplands.  It doesn't change the fact though that the rent is being increased to a level higher than what should be expected for a) a junior member; b) someone who receives no PLD; and c) the condition of the units. That seems to be the feedback both from members that live there and from those commenting on the CBC story.


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## Sub_Guy (16 Apr 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Currently, the rent for a three-bedroom semi-detached home on the Uplands military base is between $1,020 and $1,465 per month, according to the Canadian Forces Housing Agency.



Wow, that rent seems high.  I currently rent a renovated (like new) 4 bedroom house in Comox, with two full bathrooms for $935 a month.


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## Sparkplugs (11 Sep 2013)

Quick little pmq question. The lady down the road babysits my son, and gas three kids of her own. There are vermin living around/under her porch, both front anf back, on her pmq. I don't mean mice, or moles, or bees, it's rats. Big, brown rats. I thought at first she was exaggerating when she told me, until I drove there today, and watched a big ol' mama rat and a couple of babies run across the road and under her porch, completely nonchalantly, and I walked right up to them to make sure they were indeed rats. I know what rats are, I had them as pets in college, but not like these ones. Definitely not escaped domestic ones. Anyway, she called CFHA, who laid some traps. You know those little wooden mousetraps with the springs? Picture those, but ten times bigger. They haven't caught anything. She called again, and they said they can't use poison in case a dog gets in there. So they told her there's nothing more they can do except lay traps. These little suckers are multiplying. I'm concerned, because I have a two year-old kid who goes there two weeks a month, and I don't want him getting bitten by these. I remember when we moved into this pmq 5 years ago, we had mice, and it took CFHA 6 months to send around a dude with a mousetrap. We took care of it ourselves by that point. I guess I'm asking if the best thing is for her to keep bugging CFHA? Can I do anything? If she hires an exterminator to come take care of them, is there any way to get CFHA to pay for it? I know when I had a sick groundhog in my yard, it was C&E that I had to take care of it myself, but with the rats, they said it was CFHA's business. So help? Any advice? Is this something CFHA should be dealing with? Or the health department? Anyone been in the same boat? (And for the record, I'm not being a big wimpy girl, I'm not afraid of them, just worried about what they could be carrying.)  :-X

*Also, feel free to PM me if you don't want to answer publicly.


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## captloadie (12 Sep 2013)

The resident should go to CFHA and request they install the "pet friendly" poison traps that are available. You see them at many commercial establishments. Basically a small plastic black box that has poision inside and a small entrance for rodents, but no real way for larger animals to get at it. They may say that there is a risk a pet may get at a dead rat that has been poisoned, but that could happen anywhere. (Oh, and maybe remind CFHA that RHU policy states pets need to be either fenced or tied up on RHU property, so no pets should be able to get at a properly placed trap.)


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## Sparkplugs (12 Sep 2013)

captloadie said:
			
		

> The resident should go to CFHA and request they install the "pet friendly" poison traps that are available. You see them at many commercial establishments. Basically a small plastic black box that has poision inside and a small entrance for rodents, but no real way for larger animals to get at it. They may say that there is a risk a pet may get at a dead rat that has been poisoned, but that could happen anywhere. (Oh, and maybe remind CFHA that RHU policy states pets need to be either fenced or tied up on RHU property, so no pets should be able to get at a properly placed trap.)



Thank you, I'll definitely let her know!


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## AshS (29 Oct 2013)

I've just registered to this site, and this particular subject grabbed my attention. My family lives in the PMQs in Oromocto, and the state of ours is disgusting.  We took it over from my husbands old roommate, CFHA came to do an inspection before it was signed over, said all was fine, so we  took it over.  Now....we just had a baby, our bathroom is full of mold, there is mold starting to grow on our ceiling in the kitchen, the old roommate left some things damaged on the wall of the living room that we are now responsible for....even though when it was inspected before we took it over, all was apparently fine and there was nothing that had to be done.  There is no insulation in the walls to the outside, we were told that it is a requirement to own a dehumidifier (which if it is a requirement, it should just be here as we are RENTING!) So, our home was just inspected as I called to complain....the solution:  paint over the mold in the bathroom, re-grout the moldy bathtub tiles, leave the toilet, sink, and tub even though the tub finish is all coming off, repaint one wall in the kitchen. The next thing that I had asked CFHA was to be moved to a different Q, could this happen?? Nope.  So now here I am, with a 4 month old baby and living with mold that we cant do anything about until we can save up enough for a home of our own, which could take 2 years as many would know as a new family starting out.  I love the fact that someone that we know was given the option of 5 different PMQs to move into because they needed more space because they had a child just last week....but we were told that it was not possible.   


As for Mr. Fraser......maybe you should think about the responsible families that do live in the PMQs before you start ranting about how we are all apparently good for nothing in your opinion.  There are people who do not take care of their homes here, yes, but it is not everyone and we do not all deserve the same label and treatment.


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## MrsMurray (12 Oct 2014)

Just wondering what people are paying for their utilities while living in the pmqs in Kingston? We're most likely getting a 2 bedroom, but not sure yet on whether it'll be an apartment style or house style. Still waiting for our application to go through. We're moving up next month so I'm just trying to get an idea of our monthly budget. Looking forward to meeting everyone there!


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## PuckChaser (12 Oct 2014)

Water is bulk, about 25 bucks a month included with your rent. I paid ~70 a month equal billing for gas, and ~100 for electricity. This was a 3 bdrm single house, that was not one of the upgraded ones. No idea if its anywhere close for the apartments.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Aug 2015)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> A belated update for this thread:
> 
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/090930/canada/canada_manitoba300909_kapyong_decision_invalid
> 
> ...



Appealed, and confirmed by the Federal Court of Appeal ....


> In a decision on Friday, the federal court of appeal said it agrees that the federal government failed to adequately consult with First Nations over the sale of Kapyong Barracks, the old military base in Winnipeg that has sat empty since 2004.
> 
> A group of four Manitoba First Nations want the 64-hectare site on Kenaston Boulevard. There was interest in turning it into an urban reserve ....


The wheels continue to (slowly) grind.


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## exspy (16 Aug 2015)

Was there this much trouble disposing of Lavérendrye Lines in Winnipeg when that site was no longer required?  I'm not an expert but when the disposal of Currie and Harvey Barracks' in Calgary was going on, I seem to recall the Sarcee FN receiving the Harvey site and building a casino while the Currie site is being commercially developed as residential housing.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Is anyone aware of an underlying issue that is making this particular disposal such a cause célèbre?

Cheers,
Dan.


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Aug 2015)

I fail to see why the transfer of the lands from DND to CLC is the issue. The lands are surplus to DND, so they go to CLC for disposal. Government policy says that OGDs get first crack at the land, followed by First Nations to extinguish land claims. I saw nothing that ever ordained that DND had a preference who got the land. That the 4-5 First Nations involved in this disposal all want the whole parcel, at the expense of each other is probably part of the problem. The other part of the problem is the surrounding neighbourhoods, which are pretty affluent and not exactly thrilled with the idea of an urban reserve. They would rather see the land sit empty and the buildings rot into the ground, than that happen.

Winnipeg is a complex place...


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## GAP (16 Aug 2015)

> The other part of the problem is the surrounding neighbourhoods, which are pretty affluent Very, very affluent and not exactly thrilled strangling with the idea of an urban reserve. They would rather see the land sit empty and the buildings rot into the ground, than that happen. and they will find a way
> 
> Winnipeg is a complex place...not



TFTFY......... ;D


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## AJFitzpatrick (16 Aug 2015)

Isn't/Didn't something similar happening/ed with CFB Rockcliffe/Ottawa North ?


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## The Bread Guy (17 Aug 2015)

Is there an election on or something?


> Former Liberal prime minister Paul Martin says the federal government made an error in pursuing a lawsuit instead of negotiations over the sale of a former Canadian Forces base in Winnipeg.
> 
> In a decision issued on Friday, the federal Court of Appeal said it agrees that the federal government failed to adequately consult with Treaty 1 First Nations over the sale of Kapyong Barracks, which has sat empty since 2004 ....


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## The Bread Guy (23 Sep 2015)

The latest ....


> Manitoba First Nation leaders say they're pleased to hear that a court battle with the federal government over Kapyong Barracks, a hotly contested piece of real estate in Winnipeg, could soon be over.
> 
> During a campaign stop in Winnipeg on Tuesday, *Conservative Leader Stephen Harper said the government will not appeal the latest decision from the the Federal Court of Appeal*, which upheld an earlier ruling that said Ottawa had failed to consult four First Nations about the future development of the former military site.
> 
> "We've met with local First Nations leaders and will continue to do so as we move forward," Harper told reporters Tuesday morning before ending his news conference, which focused on a promise to create 1.3 million jobs by 2020 ....


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## krimynal (22 Jul 2016)

Hey everyone , 

I wanted to reply to my old topic which was named "BACK with the PMQ Questions" but it was locked , if admins want to move this one into the other one I have no problem with this. 

So I got the call this morning that I will be joining the Air-Force as of August 24Th 2016 as an AVN Tech !!! Couldn't be happier right now, I'm litterally over the moon !!!

But someone got an interesting fact to my attention not long ago , and I was wondering if anyone had any info on that. 

My girlfriend and I started a while back a little business doing reptiles breeding.  So we currently own quite a few of them ( about 70-80 ) currently in Quebec , we didn't have to sign up as an official business because we are making less than 15K a year. 

But someone told me that we could not bring any reptiles in PMQ's .... is that right ??? because then I will try to find an apartment and not apply for a PMQ.  I went on the rules on Forces.ca , the only thing they say is that you need to apply to the city Bylaws ... I do know a lot of breeder in Barrie and it's not a problem .... but then again .... 

Is this true ?? because I would need to check for something else if I can't bring them with me .... 

Thanks a lot !


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## mariomike (22 Jul 2016)

Congratulations on getting back in, krim!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

And good luck with your pets.


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## krimynal (22 Jul 2016)

thanks a lot Mariomike !!! 

I swear I wanted this so much haha !!! but I couldn't be happier of getting my 1st choice , and straight to Borden , I don't know what my pay will be like , probably will know that later on , but at least I know I'm getting back in uniform and as a regular member in a job that looks amazing !


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## PMedMoe (22 Jul 2016)

You'll probably have to check Base/Wing Standing Orders.  I know reptiles weren't allowed in the Qs in Petawawa.

Also, I think you have to clear it with CFHA and/or Base if you are running a business out of your PMQ.


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## krimynal (22 Jul 2016)

yeah I did read about the fact that if you have a business you need to let them know , so they can apply the regulations and all that stuff , but I don't know if you are called a business under X amount of income in Ontario or as soon as you produce / sell animals you are automatically called a business  ??? 

I will have to check on that part too !


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## exgunnertdo (24 Jul 2016)

I know here in Kingston, someone posted on the unofficial Facebook page for the base, that exotic pets would no longer be allowed.  Also, I think no more than two pets in general.  I have a vague memory that it was a CFHA wide policy, so that it wasn't a "but I could do this in CFB X, why not here!?"

Edit to add: here is the screen shot someone posted, from the newsletter.







It does say "CFHA" on the policy, which is what led me to believe it's not just Kingston. But it might be just Kingston.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SeaKingTacco (24 Jul 2016)

There used to be a "PMQ users manual" (for lack of a better term) on the CFHA website which spelled out in general terms the ability (or not) to run a business or keep animals in the RHU.

From there, you then need to check your local base standing orders, as there may be local rules that further restrict what you can or cannot do in an RHU.

Generally speaking, CFHA makes rules that are designed to protect the long term health of the buildings and to promote basic harmony between neighbours.

Base Commanders generally make rules for PMQ patches that take discipline and security into account.

Your mileage may, of course, vary.


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

if ever they would not let me bring my reptiles in the PMQ ( which I am not going to debate if they decide its a no go ) is it possible to ask to live OFF-BASE while I am doing my Initial Trade Training , by stating that my business is not allowed in the Qs and that I will not simply leave my business.  

We started this because my girlfriend wanted to have a stay-at-home business while I was able to do what I wanted in the Canadian Forces.  She loves this , and we are having a tun of fun doing it, not enough to live of it tho.  But I cant ask her to follow me in Borden or anywhere and simply tell her that the thing we have been building for the past 4 years is no more possible and that she has to leave it up. 

Buying a house with initial trade training is just a no-brainer ... and since I don't even know how long I will be in Borden , I cant ask her to stay in Quebec and wait until I get my first Posting. 

I could always ask her to get an apartment around Borden , but prices are really expensive and she doesn't speak English , so trying to get a job will be quite hard.  

I honestly never thought that it was going to be a problem having my pets with me until 1 week ago.  I mean I currently live in a 3 bedroom apartment and all of them are in 1 room with a rack system so its no "escape" proof.


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## mariomike (25 Jul 2016)

krimynal said:
			
		

> I honestly never thought that it was going to be a problem having my pets with me until 1 week ago.



Pets? They're Emotional Support Animals!  

"Do not pet. I am working!"

_As always,_  the CAF is your most trusted source of information.


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

because I did look up at Borden and Angus ( Essa Township ) Bylaws , and NOTHING on the site or in the rules is said about reptiles.  

I know that Barrie as all reptiles in the Pythons and Boas category banned , but Borden is not under Barrie.  

I Am also looking if I can apply for a type of Permit or anything like that that I could pay each month in order to be 100% legal with the city and surroundings. 

I am also more than happy to provide my proof of insurance / to have someone from CFHA come to my PMQ and see how safe it is.  

I spend my years here breeding snake , doing exposition , trying to debunk all the wrong that people claim about them, I know they have a very bad reputation .... but I don't want to have to get rid of all my collection ....


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## mariomike (25 Jul 2016)

krimynal said:
			
		

> I spend my years here breeding snake , doing exposition , trying to debunk all the wrong that people claim about them, I know they have a very bad reputation .... but I don't want to have to get rid of all my collection ....



If you don't mind me asking, how does one "get rid" of a collection of snakes? Just let them go, like Free Willy? < Just kidding.


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

no , you wholesale the entire collection , 

Post them on the internet , or find a reptile store that is willing to buy them off at a stupid low price .... Too many people I know had to do this , and I don't want to , I want to keep them , keep having babies .... this morning I just got 8 new babies .... that hatched out of the egg ... its such an amazing feeling .... it is so awesome .... I don't want to stop doing that , neither does my girlfriend !


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Jul 2016)

It will be up to CFSATE to approve/deny a request to live on the economy while on your common core, QL3 etc.  I know it's been done before (buddy of mine who OTd to AVN, and had his family moved up and in a PMQ), however...there's no guarantee until the request is approved.

You'll also have to see what posting 'status' you get; you might be restricted from a move at public expense until after your QL3/have to ask to have the posting restriction lifted.  That should all be detailed in your Offer and your ETP message.


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

thanks EITS , I got my offer last Friday , so I guess Ill have more info in the coming days .... 

I still don't know what my exact rank / pay rate will be so all I know is that I have to be at Borden on august 24Th !


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Jul 2016)

Your offer came and didn't have your rank and IPC on it?  That strikes me as odd.  I did my CT back to the Regs years ago now, but my offer and ETP messages had all the required info;  DEU, TCP, Rank, PIC, etc.

Congrats though, I know you've been on the CT merry-go-round for a while.  Nice to have that behind you.

It wouldn't surprise me if you had to report to CFSATE, then submit your memo to live on the economy and have a posting restriction lifted (if there is one).  If you haven't already, I'd look into having common law status applied for with the CAF (if you've been living with your GF for 12+ months and can verify that with something like a bill, drivers license, etc).


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

yeah well they just didn't send me any email as of yet , but I just got off the phone with the lady at the recruiting center that was in charge of my file , she says she will be sending me the emails today

Also told me I was back on soldier 1 pay but with 257 days credit , so I would be gone back to Soldier 2 in like 3 months , she also said my date might change as to when I need to be in Borden. 

We are already doing all the necessary paperwork for common-law status we had it done when I was in the reserve but I need to re-do it now that I am going back in.  So we are looking at everything and making sure its all correct ! 

As far as the PMQ , Ill check with Borden she also told me about doing my OJT at Valcartier ( closer to home ) if my course is not until like next year.  A bunch of questions , not much of answers , but , that's part of it !


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Jul 2016)

krimynal said:
			
		

> yeah well they just didn't send me any email as of yet , but I just got off the phone with the lady at the recruiting center that was in charge of my file , she says she will be sending me the emails today
> 
> Also told me I was back on soldier 1 pay but with 257 days credit , so I would be gone back to Soldier 2 in like 3 months , she also said my date might change as to when I need to be in Borden.
> 
> ...



Ahh, so you know you got an offer, but haven't 'seen' it yet.  Makes sense.  As you are doing a OT with your CT, you'll basically likely get a recruit school bypass with your Reserve Arty time credited towards your promotion to Cpl.  That will be the TCP "time credited for promotion" part of your offer.  This will help you to getting your Cpls.  Once you are a Cpl and QL5 (have to verify that for AVN) qual'd, you start getting Spec pay.  Spec pay is great as it not only helps you earn more money while serving, it also increases your pension as well.  

If you had Common Law Status in the Reserves, bring that paperwork with you.  I'd have to look at the regs/policy for sure, but there might not be a requirement to redo the paperwork.  The current CLS status can be added to your Reg Force Pers File;  that's what they did with mine years ago as well.  But, either way, it should be easier to get it approved in the Reg Force if you have your Reserve paperwork and your addresses haven't changed since then.

OJT in Val could be a good thing;  your ETP message should post you (preposition for trg, is the language in the BTAGs IIRC) to CFSATE Borden, who will then attach post you to Valcartier.  If that's the case, you shouldn't have to pay for rations in Valcartier (unless I remember the new rations reg's incorrectly).


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

yeah well its not a CT / OT , I released in September last year , applied back in April 2016 and here I am , the CT / OT process was just WAY too long ... when I applied for the transfer they told me It would take years , when I released and reapply It took a total of 9 months .... so yeah , maybe not the best way to do it , but whatever gets you back in the fastest right ! haha 

but yeah , I should receive all those paperworks with the offer and everything today or tomorrow , so Ill have a better Idea of everything they include !


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Jul 2016)

Ahhh.  Well, you gambled and it paid off.  

Congrats again and good luck!  Welcome to the RCAF!   8)


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

hehe yeah , lets just say , Ill get used to that new bivouac in no-time  !


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## runormal (25 Jul 2016)

krimynal said:
			
		

> yeah well its not a CT / OT , I released in September last year , applied back in April 2016 and here I am , the CT / OT process was just WAY too long ... when I applied for the transfer they told me It would take years , when I released and reapply It took a total of 9 months .... so yeah , maybe not the best way to do it , but whatever gets you back in the fastest right ! haha
> 
> but yeah , I should receive all those paperworks with the offer and everything today or tomorrow , so Ill have a better Idea of everything they include !



I'm glad it worked out for you. All the best with your career.


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## Muscles And Brains (31 Aug 2016)

Hi,
        Im looking for info for the apartment given to students as the Canadian Forces Health Services School in Borden Ontario. I've asked this question before but for some reason never got an answer. I need to know if we get a bed? If not, can we buy one on base? Is the room a single, double, quadruple occupancy?


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## sarahsmom (31 Aug 2016)

It entirely depends on what course you are on.
For QL3s, you tend to be 4 to a room, with single beds in the rooms (all provided).
For QL5s, it can be singles, 2 or 4 to a room, again single beds, all provided.
Higher than that, or for MO/NO/HCA/etc, I will let others who have been there fill you in.

You don't need to buy a bed. And we call it living in shacks, or barracks. Not apartments. There are normally no kitchen facilities at the QL3/5 level. You eat your meals at the mess.


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## Muscles And Brains (1 Sep 2016)

paleomedic said:
			
		

> It entirely depends on what course you are on.
> For QL3s, you tend to be 4 to a room, with single beds in the rooms (all provided).
> For QL5s, it can be singles, 2 or 4 to a room, again single beds, all provided.
> Higher than that, or for MO/NO/HCA/etc, I will let others who have been there fill you in.
> ...



Thanks, but I'm referring to PAT Platoon. Do you have any info on that?


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## Muscles And Brains (1 Sep 2016)

I meant for PAT Platoon, since we are paying for the room about 500$, is it at least a single?


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## PuckChaser (1 Sep 2016)

Depends on the base and what's available.


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## sarahsmom (1 Sep 2016)

You only pay about $100 for your room, and it likely is not a single (they are in limited quantity).
The $500 is for rations.


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## Muscles And Brains (2 Sep 2016)

Thanks


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## Muscles And Brains (2 Sep 2016)

paleomedic said:
			
		

> You only pay about $100 for your room, and it likely is not a single (they are in limited quantity).
> The $500 is for rations.



The food better be good for 500$...if it's not, could I prep my own food since I'm an athlete?


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Sep 2016)

No. Not while living in quarters.


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## kratz (2 Sep 2016)

Muscles And Brains said:
			
		

> The food better be good for 500$...if it's not, could I prep my own food since I'm an athlete?



Enrolling in the CAF is NOT a scholarship. Yes, we want physically fit people, but there is a balance. It's been 30+ years since the CAF has had "fitness only" people. In my career, I know a few members protected ,for PT, but this is not normal in the CAF


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## PuckChaser (2 Sep 2016)

Muscles And Brains said:
			
		

> The food better be good for 500$...if it's not, could I prep my own food since I'm an athlete?



Yep, you're an athlete. A tactical athlete. Your "sport" is now your job, and being a Kenyan marathoner does nothing to help you move heavy aircraft parts, close with and destroy the enemy, or sling supplies at a tactical DP.


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## Pusser (7 Sep 2016)

Muscles And Brains said:
			
		

> The food better be good for 500$...if it's not, could I prep my own food since I'm an athlete?



The charge for rations cannot be compared to your grocery bill, because it also includes the cost for preparation, storage and infrastructure.  Yes, the food is good, but it's institutional, which means it tries to satisfy the average palate.  There's plenty of it, but it can be a bit mundane from time to time.  There will be sufficient choice, though, for the average person to eat a healthy balanced diet.  However, if you're looking for protein shakes infused with kale and whatever grass is trendy lately, you're going to be disappointed.  You *might* be able to get a three-egg white omelet at breakfast if you ask nicely and it's not too busy.

You MAY be allowed to "de-link" rations from quarters (depends on the circumstances and location), meaning that you would only have the cost of quarters deducted from your pay, but that means you would not be able to eat in the mess, unless you buy individual meal tickets (which are more expensive).  You would be completely on your own for food, which could be awkward, again depending on circumstances. You definitely will NOT be allowed to have a toaster, microwave or any other kind of heating/cooking appliance in the barracks.  Some barracks may have common rooms where these things are available, but again, this depends on location and circumstances.


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## mariomike (7 Sep 2016)

Muscles And Brains said:
			
		

> The food better be good for 500$...



Opinions,

What's the food like?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/96247.75.html
4 pages.

Army food is 'cheaper than a dog's dinner'  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/63221.0/nowap.html
2 pages.

Food 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/112674.25.html
2 pages.

Good food in the Army??  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/36990.25
2 pages.

How‘s the food?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/13722.0/nowap.html
2 pages.

Food
http://army.ca/forums/threads/2003.0

Etc...
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+food&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=UyXQV8_XFoiN8QeBkbrgBg&gws_rd=ssl#


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## Accalia (5 Apr 2017)

We are posted to Wainwright and are on the list for a PMQ. Is there a grandfather clause with regards to pets? The limit, I have been told, is 2 per house but we will be moving there with 2 small dogs and a cat. Looking for any information. Also wondering about renting off base. I have googled like crazy and keep coming up empty!


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## Jwh (10 Nov 2017)

Does anyone know how long the wait time is for a Pmq in shilo


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Nov 2017)

Jwh said:
			
		

> Does anyone know how long the wait time is for a Pmq in shilo



http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-support-services-housing/housing-locations/shilo-housing.page  give them a call maybe?


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## GreenMarine (24 Sep 2019)

"Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 365 days. Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic. "( Not seeing a more appropriate thread so here I go) 

Greeting Forum, I moved out of my RHU/PMQ almost 2 months ago, and recently got a $4k bill from CFHA to repaint the whole unit.

I seem to remember seeing a reference or a note some where that only the CDS can order a member to pay upto a certain amount and the DM for amounts beyond in situations similar.

I do have some other ideas to deal with what I believe is fine print trickery one their part, but would hope that there is something in black in white and even if there isn't notice for the next member CFHA will try to have you sign blank cheques on march out.


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## garb811 (24 Sep 2019)

Did you have a preliminary inspection prior to march out? At that time were you told of issues that you needed to correct prior to march out, such as returning the colour of the walls to their original colour or patching holes and repainting the affected areas to match the original paint? If so, did you comply with that?

Charging someone to repaint an entire RHU is a pretty extreme measure, usually they only charge for the specific issue they need to fix if you don't.


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Sep 2019)

The CFHA website also has an occupant handbook that describes normal wear and tear and how you can be found liable for excessive damage.


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## tree hugger (25 Sep 2019)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> "Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 365 days. Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic. "( Not seeing a more appropriate thread so here I go)
> 
> Greeting Forum, I moved out of my RHU/PMQ almost 2 months ago, and recently got a $4k bill from CFHA to repaint the whole unit.
> 
> ...



The only scenario I could see this happening is if you were there for only a couple of months and you had painted throughout without permission...


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## GreenMarine (25 Sep 2019)

We lived there for over a year, we smoked in the PMQ, during pre-march was given 3 options; Deep Clean, DIY Paint, Let them paint.

With the clock ticking I selected Deep Clean, 72 man hours within a 3 day period with 4 person party before final march out. 

On the March out the inspectors wrote down smells of heavy cleaners and tobacco. I noted to him whatever they used to paint the ceiling made it impossible to clean, but walls, floors, surfaces all done several times, with TSP being our "heavy" cleaner.

All to have them invoice me over $4000 with a 30 days to pay or 3% annual interest is applied.  

Some email banter has gone back in forth since with CFHA quoting their occupant handbook.


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## garb811 (25 Sep 2019)

I had no clue what TSP was, so I Googled it. In the Wikipedia entry it states:


> Painting enhancement
> TSP is still in common use for the cleaning, degreasing, and deglossing of walls prior to painting. TSP breaks the gloss of oil-based paints and opens the pores of latex-based paint, providing a surface better suited for the adhesion of the subsequent layer


It looks like your attempts at deep cleaning destroyed the finish of the paint in the RHU, hence the complete repaint and subsequent bill.


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## BeyondTheNow (26 Sep 2019)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> We lived there for over a year, we smoked in the PMQ, during pre-march was given 3 options; Deep Clean, DIY Paint, Let them paint.
> 
> ...with TSP being our "heavy" cleaner...



Edit to add: _Italicized text_

I don't have any experience with CFHA, so I'm sorry you're saddled with that bill. But I have TSP and I use it for the inside of my oven and microwave, _sides of appliances and such_. During my pre-CAF days bottles of it were accessible in some of the places I used to work for degreasing duties also. It's an extremely harsh cleaner. 

Having obviously not seen the inside of your former residence, I can only say that if that's what you used on the walls, I can understand how housing came to that conclusion. Not only can it affect the surface of the paint and walls due to it's corrosiveness, it requires a proper rinse after use. (_Apologies, as I don’t have a no-rinse formula...you might. I wasn’t aware one existed until I looked it up._) The remnants of it can also create issues with new layers of paint being applied _in some instances_.

You _might_ be able to get away with using a very small amount quickly on a small spot in a discreet area if the paint is of glossy finish, it's hardwood underneath and not drywall. But yea, a simple latex, flat-finish paint on (probably) drywall? I'd avoid that.


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## Quirky (27 Sep 2019)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> We lived there for over a year, we smoked in the PMQ,



Aren’t PMQs non-smoking?


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## stellarpanther (27 May 2020)

I know PMQ's are old and not the best looking houses but what is going on in Petawawa?  I have the option for a posting to Pet this summer if I want it.  It's nice to have a choice as I have a few years left and would like a non-Ottawa experience.  I'm told there are a lot of non-field units I could get.  I took a drive there yesterday and it looked like a ghetto, especially the South side, garbage everywhere, grass not cut or in some cases, more sand than grass.  Other than one street with some houses that looked not too bad, is everything on the southside row houses?


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2020)

[quote author=stellarpanther]   I'm told there are a lot of non-field units I could get. 
[/quote]

Absolutely.


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## PuckChaser (27 May 2020)

North Side is better. South side rowhouses that are renovated are pretty nice inside for a PMQ.


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## stellarpanther (27 May 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Absolutely.



That's good to hear.  I heard bad things about the town of Pet and Pembroke before but I honestly think both look great.  The scenery in that area is beautiful.  The only thing that honestly shocked me was the PMQ's, especially on the South side.  I'm surprised the base Chief doesn't come down like a ton of bricks on those living there.


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## blacktriangle (27 May 2020)

I know you don't really get a choice, but have you ever considered asking for Kingston? Might be less of shock for you than Pet, and it still gets you out of Ottawa. It's a pretty nice place to live, IMO. 

Just a thought.


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## stellarpanther (27 May 2020)

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I know you don't really get a choice, but have you ever considered asking for Kingston? Might be less of shock for you than Pet, and it still gets you out of Ottawa. It's a pretty nice place to live, IMO.
> 
> Just a thought.



I did ask, I love that city but was told nothing is available.  I'm told it's Pet or stay put.  It's not even for sure I will get to leave but I'm told there is a strong chance I will get it if I want to.  Apparently they have shortages there in several ranks.  It surprises me because I knew someone who practically begged for 3 years to go there and they finally moved him to Halifax instead.


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## Halifax Tar (28 May 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I did ask, I love that city but was told nothing is available.  I'm told it's Pet or stay put.  It's not even for sure I will get to leave but I'm told there is a strong chance I will get it if I want to.  Apparently they have shortages there in several ranks.  It surprises me because I knew someone who practically begged for 3 years to go there and they finally moved him to *Halifax* instead.



I know it’s not a place you stated that you wanted but... 

Not sure what trade you are, but if you are a trade who sails don’t even think about Halifax or Esq unless you are ready willing and able to sail please.  We don’t need any more peeps posted in who aren’t ready willing and able to go to sea. 

Your self-professed aversion to field units does not sit well with me.  And makes wary of you coming this way.


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## Jarnhamar (28 May 2020)

[quote author=stellarpanther] The only thing that honestly shocked me was the PMQ's, 
[/quote]

Wait until you get surprise posted to a field unit, you won't have to worry about spending too much time in pmqs.


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## Lumber (28 May 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It surprises me because I knew someone who practically begged for 3 years to go there and they finally moved him to Halifax instead.





			
				Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Your self-professed aversion to field units does not sit well with me.  And makes wary of you coming this way.



What I think Tar is trying to say is, sailing can be hard on people and their families. It's also, surprisingly, actually pretty easy to get out of sailing.  Any of dozen of different physical, mental, or compassionate reasons, whether mild, severe, or downright fake, can get you landed.

Too often in the Navy we have the bulk of the sailing being done by the healthy willing few, with the short billets being hogged by the lame and lazy (we call it NATO Knee, or RIMPAC Back) .

So, I don't think Tar really means to say he thinks less of you as a person/soldier for your aversion to field time; I think he just wants to avoid the situation where you come here, get posted to a ship, allowing him to go ashore to a shore billet, only for you several months later to suddenly "become" unfit-sea, requiring Tar to go back to sea to replace you.

At least, I think that's what he means...


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## Halifax Tar (28 May 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> What I think Tar is trying to say is, sailing can be hard on people and their families. It's also, surprisingly, actually pretty easy to get out of sailing.  Any of dozen of different physical, mental, or compassionate reasons, whether mild, severe, or downright fake, can get you landed.
> 
> Too often in the Navy we have the bulk of the sailing being done by the healthy willing few, with the short billets being hogged by the lame and lazy (we call it NATO Knee, or RIMPAC Back) .
> 
> ...



I dont work or play in grey areas.  What I say is what I mean.  Spelling mistakes and all.


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## Lumber (28 May 2020)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I dont work or play in grey areas.  What I say is what I mean.  Spelling mistakes and all.



Fair enough.


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## stellarpanther (28 May 2020)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I know it’s not a place you stated that you wanted but...
> 
> Not sure what trade you are, but if you are a trade who sails don’t even think about Halifax or Esq unless you are ready willing and able to sail please.  We don’t need any more peeps posted in who aren’t ready willing and able to go to sea.
> 
> Your self-professed aversion to field units does not sit well with me.  And makes wary of you coming this way.



I'm HRA and while I'm not going to Halifax or Esquimalt,  MCpl's don't get posted to ships or so I'm told by several people including a CPO2 who seems extremely knowledgeable.  Since getting told there is a good chance of going to Pet if I want it, I've been asking a lot of questions and I'm told there are several people who go to Pet and never go to a field unit depending on their trade.  An example I was given was that some units do ruck sack marches etc, there are some people (I'm not one of them although I haven't touched one it years so who knows) who can't do them, they are older, have bad knees , back or whatever but can still do their force test.  They often don't send them to field units so I'm told because it will be a clearly bad fit.  It doesn't make them bad CAF mbr's because they can't do the same stuff as a ripped 25 year old.  For fitness, the requirement is to do the Force test every year.


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## stellarpanther (28 May 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Wait until you get surprise posted to a field unit, you won't have to worry about spending too much time in pmqs.



From what I'm told by someone I know in one of the field units, the HRA's/FSA's are not sleeping in the field that often.  According to him, while many set up tents etc, many HRA's/FSA's go home at night and return the next morning.


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## stellarpanther (28 May 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> What I think Tar is trying to say is, sailing can be hard on people and their families. It's also, surprisingly, actually pretty easy to get out of sailing.  Any of dozen of different physical, mental, or compassionate reasons, whether mild, severe, or downright fake, can get you landed.
> 
> Too often in the Navy we have the bulk of the sailing being done by the healthy willing few, with the short billets being hogged by the lame and lazy (we call it NATO Knee, or RIMPAC Back) .
> 
> ...



Since I'm not requesting or being posted to a coast, it's not an issue, plus MCpl's in my trade don't get posted to ships so it wouldn't be an issue with me.  I've worked with several navy mbr's in the past and heard how easy it is to get off a ship.  Not sure what it's like to get out of a field unit but I've heard there are ways as well.  If I was sent to one, I would give it my best, but I'm not that young nor do I have any illusion that I will be able to keep up with some of these young people and I'm not pushing myself to have a heart attack or get a divorce.  I'm a firm believer in family first.  Leadership preaches it all the time.  
Not to get off topic as I often easily do, but several years ago when I was a Cpl, I was working at a unit and the Colonel came in shortly after 9:30am one day, for some reason she stopped to talk to me and talked to me for a minute about how cold it was.  She said she told herself that when it's -30 degrees and colder, she's going to drive her daughter to school and that family needs to come first.  I replied, that's really nice of you ma'am, I'm going start doing that too.  She hesitantly said, you should and again said family first.  I don't think my WO liked it but didn't say anything.  I did it twice that year just because and surprisingly my WO laughed about it each time but someone in another section didn't find it funny and gave me dirty looks over it.


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## Jarnhamar (28 May 2020)

Stellarpanther,

I'll fire you a PM


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## stellarpanther (28 May 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Stellarpanther,
> 
> I'll fire you a PM



Sounds good.


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## cdnchck (28 May 2020)

Just a heads up, this week is bulk pick up in Petawawa.  CFHA Petawawa has 2 by-law officers. They patrol multiple times a day.  The south side usually doesn't look as bad.


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## stellarpanther (28 May 2020)

cdnchck said:
			
		

> Just a heads up, this week is bulk pick up in Petawawa.  CFHA Petawawa has 2 by-law officers. They patrol multiple times a day.  The south side usually doesn't look as bad.



Lol... that's explains it.  In Ottawa in the PSP Housing they are so strict, they will put a notice in your mailbox if you forget to roll up your hose.  In addition to being  hotter than hell yesterday, there was a strong breeze so it might have blown some of the garbage away from the curb making it look even worse.


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