# Wearing Uniform in Public (merged)



## Da_man (26 Mar 2004)

im starting my training at the Royal Montreal Regiment (res) on april 6th.   I dont have my uniform yet, but when i get it, do i put it on to travel there?   I mean if i take the subway and all, can i wear my uniform?


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## alexk (26 Mar 2004)

yea when going to and from the armouries you are allowed to wear your uniform just not when your doing somthing non military


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## AlphaCharlie (26 Mar 2004)

da_man, they‘ll give you a nice long lecture on where and when to wear your uniform.


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## mattoigta (26 Mar 2004)

While in transport, make sure you are wearing it PROPERLY. I‘ve seen way too many troops doing their basic on public busses and trains around here looking like bags of **** with no headress, undone buttons, unlaced boots, etc


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## Thompson_JM (27 Mar 2004)

hey Scarlino. when ya see them make sure to give them a freindly reminder to correct themselves.. from one soldier to another. ive found in alot of cases where ive run into em on the civy streets, they sometimes just dont know any better.

cheers


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## portcullisguy (29 Mar 2004)

Just remember, when you are in uniform, you represent not only your unit, but all Canadian Forces soldiers, and so your conduct should be appropriate at all times, even whilst on public transit, etc.

Always wear your headdress in public, unless you are eating a meal or enjoying a bevvy in an appropriate establishment.

I may be mistaken, but I believe you even have to wear headdress while in a personal motor vehicle on a CF base.

Always make sure your dress & deportment is up to parade standard when in public.  If you look like a bag of hammers, people will think the army is nothing but bags of hammers.


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## 1feral1 (29 Mar 2004)

My suggestion if you are in the public say on the train or busses, etc, and especially when you are alone, it might be best to travel in civvies with your uniform, etc in a kitbag or better yet keep a uniform at the unit in a locked locker.

There is too many arseholes out there, and many do not have the same view as you would expect.

Here in Australia onwe is not allowed to be in the public unless there is two or more, all due to the threat against us, and alarge population of ethnics in certain areas, where defence people and even their cars have been targeted.

Its for our safety.

Sad, but true in todays society ther are many people out there who are true army haters/haters of the west, righ here in our own countries.

Regards,

Wes


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## chrisf (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by portcullisguy:
> [qb]I may be mistaken, but I believe you even have to wear headdress while in a personal motor vehicle on a CF base.
> [/qb]


Oh dear... I always try to be very concious of the fact that I‘m representing the forces wherever I go (I don‘t think it would be unfair to say I‘m a walking recruiting poster somtimes) but no one every mentioned this to me regarding headress... I usually remove mine after boarding public transit... are there any standing orders regarding this?


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## alan_li_13 (29 Mar 2004)

Well said Wes. Us cadets were told not to travel in our combat uniforms while on public transit. My Lt. once told me of an incident where a small group of cadets were beat up by Serbian teens because they taught they were part of the Army. Sad but true.


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## meni0n (29 Mar 2004)

The uniform sometimes attracts special kind of people too. Just a week or so ago I was going home on the metro and some guy started telling me he was a "special" commando trained to kill 20 ppl with 1 bullet and trained to dodge bullets and he was also kind enough to demonstrate how to dodge them. I couldn‘t keep a straight face for the life of me. Thank god I was with another soldier who could. Mostly when I travel in public in uniform no one really bothers me. Then there‘s lots of kids saluting you when you pass them which makes it a little uncomfortable because you don‘t know what to do.


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## Spr.Earl (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Just a Sig Op:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


When entering a Base,going through the gate,yes you will wear your head dress and while driving on base you will keep your head dress on!
Also while in uniform you will keep your head dress on even on the bus,you are in Uniform!!
The only time you take your head dress off is indoors and I don‘t mean the Mall!!

I can‘t believe this!!
Has nobody taught you people the correct dress and deportment when wearing a Uniform?


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## chrisf (29 Mar 2004)

Crap. I‘m rather glad that was pointed out to me. Thank you.


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## Spr.Earl (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Just a Sig Op:
> [qb] Crap. I‘m rather glad that was pointed out to me. Thank you. [/qb]


No sweat Jimmy,that‘s what us Old Fart‘s are for,is to teach and pass on what we know.


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## George Wallace (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> I can‘t believe this!!
> Has nobody taught you people the correct dress and deportment when wearing a Uniform?


Right!...You lot....Two of you escort Spr Earl....Double March.....Spr Earl remove your head dress....Left..Right..Left..Right Turn, Left Turn, Escort and Prisoner Halt....What Say the Guilty B.....


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## homerjsimpson (29 Mar 2004)

LOL Wear the **** uniform! be proud of it! if your scared yer gunna get beat up....dont join the Army. I mean hey u could get killed in the army! If you dont know what to do when a little kid salutes u DONT join the army!, maybe just salute him back???? duh! Im not gunna begin with the "Double march" bit......

In closing , its ALL common dog**** stuff......once you have been instructed on the CFAO‘s & QR&O‘s.........


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## Spr.Earl (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by George Wallace:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


On your bike.


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## The_Falcon (29 Mar 2004)

Actually when on public transit, you do not have wear your headdress.  I have seen it in a CANFORGEN or CFAO.  When I find it I will post it.


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## Art Johnson (29 Mar 2004)

You forgot the Web Belt. In my day it was "Escort and Accused" Being an escort is not always a nice job. I recall an incident when I ws down at "B" Echalon and the CSM nailed me for Escort duties. We took the first accused in and heared his story, it was all I could do to stop from laughing. Even the Company Commander was having a problem keeping a straight face. His cohort gave an entirely different story. I knew the two people involved and I was thinking, Oh God couldn‘t you guys get you story straight. I‘m busting a gut thinking about this incident that happened 54 years ago.


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## The_Falcon (30 Mar 2004)

The QR&O Volume 1 Chapter 17 deals with uniforms and appearance.  It is not very specific on when and were you have to wear head dress I will continue searching.

 http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/tofc17_e.asp


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## The_Falcon (30 Mar 2004)

Ok I am really bored, can‘t find the specific order (probably cause it is CANFORGEN and you can‘t get them through the internet) but I found this power point BMQ lesson from 38 brigade about proper uniform wearing, and it says you can remove your headress while on public transport.

armyapp.forces.gc.ca/38cbg_arsd/CD/bmq/MLP/po101/101-06(CFDressRegulationsandAppearance).ppt


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## Da_man (30 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [qb] My suggestion if you are in the public say on the train or busses, etc, and especially when you are alone, it might be best to travel in civvies with your uniform, etc in a kitbag or better yet keep a uniform at the unit in a locked locker.
> 
> There is too many arseholes out there, and many do not have the same view as you would expect.
> ...


I was thinking the uniform would keep the little punks away...


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## BDTyre (30 Mar 2004)

The uniform does not frighten anyone.  There was an incident in Vancouver recently when a middle aged lady started verbally harrassing a group of cadets (some as young as twelve), accusing them of being murderers.

In the states, service members are commonly swarmed and beaten up.  It seems that people see a uniform almost as a challenge.


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## Danjanou (30 Mar 2004)

Art if you think, trying to keep a straight face as an escort is hard, try it as a CSM. I swear I almost dropped my pace stick once and it was a serious effort to a) stop from laughing as I listened to the poor sod‘s story or b) wanting to break said pace stick over his head for such an idiotic poorly prepared excuse.

Anyway back to the topic at hand. I wish I had plug nickel for every public transit story in uniform I‘ve heard or endured.

BC in the late 1970‘s was bad IIRC, and as a young troopie being called a baby burner by the granola brigade on a weekly basis can get to you.

A lot of curious looks in Toronto in the late 1980s early 1990‘s later and some verbal abuse especially when Oka was going down. Fortunately I was usually going to FYA directly from work, so I had my uniform in a duffle. The return trips though I usually coudn‘t be bothered to change into civies and it‘s late at night when the weird and opinionated ride the TTC.

Funny the only place no seemed to notice or perhaps care was in Nfld.

Wes I remember a Brit TA on exchange telling me the no uniform to and from parade rule existed there to due to possible threats (IRA?).


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## big_castor (30 Mar 2004)

Da_man,

I‘ve always worn my uniform on buses and in the subway in Montreal.  Except for a couple of odd looks, some strange questions and the usual idiots who saluted me, I never had any problems.


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## The_Falcon (30 Mar 2004)

Ok so it wasn‘t a CANFORGEN I had seen it was the Dress regs.  The CF Dress Instructions (A-AD-265-000/AG-001), state among other things:

"Public Transportation. Personel travelling
aboard a local public conveyance may remove their
headdress. Personnel travelling extended distances
by aircraft, bus or rail, may remove their headdress while in transit, however, headdress shall be replaced prior to exiting the public conveyance, vehicle or aircraft."

12. Military and Privately Owned Motor
Vehicles (PMV)

a. Members wearing the uniform shall wear
appropriate headdress while operating or
travelling as a passenger in all military
vehicle except:

(1) if the roof of the vehicle is too low to
permit headdress to be worn with
comfort and safety;

(2) on extended trips; 

(3) on order of the senior members
present; and

(4) in a staff car, PMV or bus. 

NOTE 
All vehicles that are rented by DND
are considered to be a military
vehicle.

b. When headdress has been removed in
accordance with the provisions of the
preceding sub-paragraph, it shall be
replaced:

(1) when approaching and leaving a
military establishment; and

(2) immediately upon exiting a military
vehicle or PMV.


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## The_Falcon (30 Mar 2004)

Reading stuff can be interesting.  There is actually a badge for wear on the uniform for the Special Operations Assualter Course. Who knew


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## 1feral1 (30 Mar 2004)

Once well getting petrol I pulled into a Rockdale service stn, which is in a totally ethnic area. The GW2 had just started, and at 182cm, and 100kg, shaven head and in uniform, didnt I cop it from the attendant who claimed  "victory of the desert dwellers", and Saddam would win, etc. I had some of the most dirty looks ever from a bout 12 of them who were in the bldg, so I just smiled, was polite as I could be, paid for my petrol and left.

Pretty sad to be victimised in your own country!

So uniformed personnel in a new world of hatred, beware.


Cheers,

Wes


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## Lajeunesse (30 Mar 2004)

Thats rediculous


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## dano (30 Mar 2004)

Ya, when my father was in the Militia in the 70‘s.
Civis would call him a "baby killer"


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## portcullisguy (30 Mar 2004)

It is totally unacceptable that military pers should have to put up with such verbal abuse by the citizenry, however, thank god we live in a free country where if you wish to express your opinion, however misguided and irrational, you may do so without fear of repression or abuse of power.

That said, never, EVER will I hesitate to wear my uniform with pride while breath exists in my lungs, and whilst Canada remains my home and native land, under my God and my Queen.

I cannot forsee the special security situation that exists in Britain ever happening here, and in any event, I readily accept the potential personal risks (although my tune MIGHT change when the day comes that I have a fmaily to think about).  In Britain it is totally understandable that service pers would be encouraged not to wear uniform in public because of the constant threat of domestic terrorism.  I made the faux pas of writing a letter to my uncle, a retired Lt-Cdr (RN), and addressing him by his proper rank and post nominals.  I later learned that this practice is not encouraged in Britain because of the obvious IRA threat.

However, Canada is an entirely different matter, and I am shocked to hear that Australia suffers from such offensive attitudes towards service personnel.

By god, what exactly are we in the army for if we cannot walk the streets safely of the country we are sworn to defend?

On a related note, I have noticed a lot more US service pers travelling through Pearson airport in uniform than before GW2.  After 9/11, I believe there were restrictions on US mil pers travelling in uniform, but after the war it was a matter of service pride and showing the flag.  Whereas before I‘d only see guys in civvie showing me their mil ID at the customs line, after GW2, I saw plenty of desert "camo fatigues" and good on ‘em.

I‘ve had the lil‘ kids stare and wave at me in uniform, and I found the most appropriate response was to smile and give a brief wave or nod back.  We can‘t make ourselves out to be ogres or disinterested... these might be tomorrow‘s soldiers.

Finally, although I usually go down to the armoury in my PMV, I have on occasion been on transit in uniform, and had to do routine personal business whilein transit (banking, stopping to get things at the store, etc) and wearing the uniform, and I‘ve never had a problem or even heard a distasteful comment.  In fact, a former member of my unit recognized my red tourie and identified himself as an ex-CSM of the 48th.  We had a pleasant conversation and he wished me luck in my future endeavours (I was on my way to CAC ‘03).

I make no apologies for my choice to serve.


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## Gryphon (14 Apr 2004)

Da_Man, they will tell you at your unit if and when you can wear it and everything, but i know for a fact that there are a few MCpls at RMR that discourage anyone who doesn‘t have their BMQ from wearing their uniform in transit.. you leave it in your locker and put it on when you reach the unit..

Ask MCpl Doucheneau (sp?) about it


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## Da_man (14 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by gryphon664:
> [qb] Da_Man, they will tell you at your unit if and when you can wear it and everything, but i know for a fact that there are a few MCpls at RMR that discourage anyone who doesn‘t have their BMQ from wearing their uniform in transit.. you leave it in your locker and put it on when you reach the unit..
> 
> Ask MCpl Doucheneau (sp?) about it [/qb]


How do i iron it if its in my locker?


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## kaspacanada (14 Apr 2004)

Mabey I‘ve never noticed any of the negative looks...but I have never experienced anything like that.  I‘ve had a few retarded saluts, but that‘s not abuse.  That‘s ignorance.  I‘ve never been called a ‘baby‘ killer travelling on public transit in the lower mainland BC, or anyplace here in Sherbrooke, QC.  Must be a Toronto thing eh? (just kidding) But never have I been treated impolitely at an airport, a bus station (well, not in regards to the uniform anyhow) or at a train station.  I am appalled to hear about Australia in this, but am not surprised by the situation in England.  It is a shame that we are treated like this in the same country we are here to defend.  I‘ll bet you‘d never see something like this from the people we‘ve helped - particularly those we helped during the ice storms, manitoba floods and the forest fires.


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## chk2fung (14 Apr 2004)

Da_man, When he says leave your unifom in your locker I believe he is referring to your combats.  You do not iron your combats, unless you want to look like a hologram..


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## jutes85 (14 Apr 2004)

> When entering a Base,going through the gate,yes you will wear your head dress and while driving on base you will keep your head dress on!


What if you are on your sport bike and wearing a helmet? Would you wear your uniform on the bike, or put it on once you are on base?


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## Meridian (26 Apr 2004)

btw - Im not sure how much bearing it has on this conversation, but given that they are instructed to follow tradition and regulation to the letter (doesn‘t mean they do, they are just expected to) and are subject to more strenuous rules,   first year cadets at RMC are required to wear their uniforms on all business into town. To the corner store, the barber, etc...   

if that is the case, then I highly doubt there exists a regulation forbidding the wearing of a military uniform anywhere. I believe this was a "common sense" idea.


I am curious about weddings, funerals, etc of a non-military nature. Do most service members who up in uniform, or in civilian suits/etc?

I know many RMC students wear their scarlets to important family events or community functions back home, both as a source of pride and to promote RMC and the CF...  do reg force/reserve members also do this?


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## armygf (11 Feb 2005)

does anyone know if regular force members are allowed to wear their uniforms in a bar?


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## chrisf (11 Feb 2005)

What uniform and under what circumstances?


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## armygf (11 Feb 2005)

i mean they are coming from work and they meet a few people in a bar. lets say any uniform, from service dress to CADPAT.  your thoughts?


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (11 Feb 2005)

Unless you are there on a sanctioned military activity and sporting DEU or mess kit, chances are you will be "crucified" if caught.In Petawawa a few years ago, it came down that you could not be wearing combats in the grocery stores past 17:00.Although there is a certain sports bar in Pet where alot of "smokers" are held or liquid lunches that are attended by those in combats.I wouldnt hit whyte ave in Edmonton in uniform though.


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## armygf (11 Feb 2005)

it was my understanding that regular force members were allowed unresticted wear in public places


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## 1feral1 (11 Feb 2005)

I'd be changing first to go to any civvy pub, but with an exception of a Mess after hrs. Other than that one could be asking for trouble with all the anti-war sentiment these days.

In my last posting, the unit was near a rather large islamic population, so even if we dipped 'outside the wire' for lunch we changed into PT gear. Post 9-11 also means mininum of 2 pers in mil veh's in public places too, although this has been relaxed lately and prior to my leaving Sydney.

Reg or PRes why someone would want to be in that uniform outside of wrking hours is beyond me.

My 2 cents.

Wes


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## armygf (11 Feb 2005)

lol that is true, however they are allowed to wear the uniform any time any place?


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## Inch (11 Feb 2005)

armygf said:
			
		

> lol that is true, however they are allowed to wear the uniform any time any place?



No. You must be authorized to wear it on leave, can't say with any certainty about the rest of the time, but who would want to wear a uniform to a bar after working in it all day? Other than the mess for TGIF or TGIT depending on what colour your hat is, I've never seen it nor do I know many people that would do it. People stop at places on their way home from work, but that's about the extent of it.


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## pbi (11 Feb 2005)

My experience recently is that the Army is OK with you following the "one stop" rule (making a necessary stop on the way to/from work) or going out to a restaurant while on duty. I do it all the time in CADPAT while travelling around our Brigade area. When we are traveling as a Bde staff team to, say, Regina or Thunder Bay we usually take breakfast and lunch in duty dress, then change into civvies in the evening so we can relax and hoist a few after supper. Going to a civilian premise on military business (say-visiting the police dept to set up joint training, giving a presentation at a school, briefing the Chamber of Commerce, visiting some other Govt Dept, etc) is also generally accepted, although whether you wore CADPAT or DEU would depend on what you were doing. Lots of people also wear duty dress to travel on transit or commercial air. As far as I know, all of these things are common practice in the Army and I have never heard of anybody getting into trouble over them. In Winnipeg the reaction I get from wearing a uniform is either neutral or very positive. I have never gotten a hassle in the 'Peg.

What pisses me to no end is uniformed sacks of shyte who stumble about in public looking like a garbage bag tied in the middle, unkempt, sloppy and with zero military bearing, "life support" inflatable beret, trousers unbloused, etc, etc. These people should be brought to a swift and horrifying end IMHO. 

What I would not recommend is the practice of "pubbing" in uniform, which was a big sport when I was a Res soldier in Toronto, esp in the summer we would leave the Armoury ASAP after parade night and hit the local spots as a "pack", usually joined soon after by folks from other units. It was lots of fun at the time, but looking back on it I'm not sure we created a very good impression.

Cheers


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## Infanteer (11 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> What I would not recommend is the practice of "pubbing" in uniform, which was a big sport when I was a Res soldier in Toronto, esp in the summer we would leave the Armoury ASAP after parade night and hit the local spots as a "pack", usually joined soon after by folks from other units. It was lots of fun at the time, but looking back on it I'm not sure we created a very good impression.



Still common.

...and from watching how some of by mates would act when full of fuel, I tend to think you're right.   At times I wore civvies, but the damn haircut would identify me with the two guys on the dance floor who were the ONLY people dancing in the entire establishment.... ^-^


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## pbi (11 Feb 2005)

> the two guys on the dance floor who were the ONLY people dancing in the entire establishment



Ahhh, I see. And what type of club was that, again?  >

Cheers.


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## Infanteer (11 Feb 2005)

Now you see why I agree with the "poor impression" part of your statement.  :blotto:


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Feb 2005)

The "brief stopover" rule was part of a CANFORGEN many years ago, was it not?


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## pbi (11 Feb 2005)

R





			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Now you see why I agree with the "poor impression" part of your statement. :blotto:



Right, then.  Stop that. Disgraceful. Marching smartly off to another thread!

Cheers


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## Ghost (11 Feb 2005)

> No. You must be authorized to wear it on leave, can't say with any certainty about the rest of the time, but who would want to wear a uniform to a bar after working in it all day?



Me.

Anyways how bad could the punishment be even if you get caught?


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## big bad john (11 Feb 2005)

If you worked for me, you would not want to find out.


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Feb 2005)

Ghost said:
			
		

> Me.
> 
> Anyways how bad could the punishment be even if you get caught?



200 dollar fine would be a very real possibility, I've seen that done in our unit for improperly wearing a uniform - and that's a reserve unit to boot.


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## Ghost (11 Feb 2005)

$200 LOL

That's nothing


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## Infanteer (11 Feb 2005)

Yeah, but avoiding a charge parade because you can't obey a simple order is a matter of professionalism and pride.

Don't be surprised if your Chain-of-Command starts to percieve you differently because they are having to deal with you.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (11 Feb 2005)

GHOST,  Is your desire to wear a uniform in public for the purpose of drawing attenetion to the armed forces or drawing attention to yourself?


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## Ghost (11 Feb 2005)

I thought women like a man in uniform


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Feb 2005)

Ghost said:
			
		

> I thought women like a man in uniform *(period)*



You know as much about Canadian women as you do about punctuation, then.


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## Baloo (11 Feb 2005)

Now, I'm just asking out of curiousity at this point, because I don't get the point of wearing the uniform to public, as it gets sometimes unwanted attention, but what is going to get you the fine here? Wearing CADPAT to a bar, or not abiding by dress regulations? If that is part of dress regulations, then someone put me in my place...


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## Michael Dorosh (12 Feb 2005)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Now, I'm just asking out of curiousity at this point, because I don't get the point of wearing the uniform to public, as it gets sometimes unwanted attention, but what is going to get you the fine here? Wearing CADPAT to a bar, or not abiding by dress regulations? If that is part of dress regulations, then someone put me in my place...



One of the troops in our brigade a few years ago was fined for going to a bar and singing Karaoke while in combats.

Another was fined for wearing DEUs to an event on the armoury floor, and disrobing in public while on stage (conducted a wee bit o' a sporran parade).

Stupid stuff, really.


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## kincanucks (12 Feb 2005)

Should go back to the old days where you were required to wear your DEUs to and from work and had to have a chit to wear PT strip if you wanted to jog to and from work.   I don't know what happen to wearing your uniform when flying on duty but that should be brought back too.   Should never be ashamed to wear your uniform in public and you should take every opportunity to do it and you should never disgrace yourself and the CF while wearing it.


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## Baloo (12 Feb 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> One of the troops in our brigade a few years ago was fined for going to a bar and singing Karaoke while in combats.
> 
> Another was fined for wearing DEUs to an event on the armoury floor, and disrobing in public while on stage (conducted a wee bit o' a sporran parade).
> 
> Stupid stuff, really.



So, technically, simply going out for a pint would not get you fined, should you be witnessed?


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## Armymedic (12 Feb 2005)

In around Petawawa, having pints, in uniform, at a commercial establishment off base will get you HUNG!


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (12 Feb 2005)

I am unsure of the actual policies but, typically around a military base, occasional stop in shopping or social drinks into early evening is accepted(depending on base commanders directives) but as for say a reserve unit in a large city after a parade night, if you are dressed properly and conducting yourself properly with a reasonable excuse as to why you are out in uniform, you should be safe.Keep in mind, you can still be charged no matter what you say because if someone is out to get you, theres no escape from the dreaded 129.


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## Michael Dorosh (12 Feb 2005)

Baloo said:
			
		

> So, technically, simply going out for a pint would not get you fined, should you be witnessed?



As Armymedic's reply will show, there is a big difference between different bases, commands, and elements (ie Regular vs. Reserve).  pbi's earlier points were apt - lunch in uniform is not a big deal, maybe even supper before (or even after) a duty period (day for regs, evening for res).

You can't come out of the field, though, and go for dinner with smelly clothes and dirty boots (and why would you want to).

What it comes down to?  One idiot ruining it for everyone else by not using common sense.  Tell a guy he can go have a drink after work in his combats, and sure as hell you know some assclown will get drop-dead drunk, beat up a cop, urinate on a nun, or what have you, in uniform, and that will be the end of it.


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## Navalsnpr (12 Feb 2005)

This issue involves a little common sense by all members of the CF. 

Remembrance day, New Years day Levees, freedom of the city are examples of occasions where members of the Military wander out to civilian bars to go for a *ahem* pop or two after the parade. Mind you that you best be in your DEU's and should act accordingly in public. That I have no problem with.

I have a problem with the people who go straight from work to a bar and sit behind a VLT for 3-4 hours and are still in their combats(Naval Combats included!)

As a rule of thumb, if you are on the way home and it is close to your route or only a quick stop, do your errands. If it's going to take a long time to get there or complete the job, then go home and change.

As for a punishment.... Here are a few that they could make stick easily I'm sure:

NDA 129: Conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline
NDA 97: Drunkenness
NDA 93: Behaved in a disgraceful manner

Bottom line is that when you are outside the confines of the Base, you are in the eye of the public and stand out.... act professional.


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## Ghost (12 Feb 2005)

Yeah it must be the clothes that cause that kind of behavior   :


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## honestyrules (12 Feb 2005)

Just a funny point to add-on to this!
Before i joined, i used to be a salesman in a hardware store. One day, i seen two guys walking around in combats. They were looking around like if they were "christening the ground". Looked like they were doing house clearing or something!.

That was pretty funny to me. Looked like "show-offs"!

I do some shopping around the base in combats (like everybody does in town here), but if i go further, civvies looked at you like you're a space mutant....

My 2 cents....
Honesty


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## Ghost (12 Feb 2005)

Yeah but most people tend to stare at you no matter what

When I would leave for work to catch the bus at 6:20 in the morning I would run to the bus stop and people would be out walking their dogs and stare at me.

I would always think who the hell gets up at 6am to walk the f***ing dog and why are they staring at me like I am the weird one.

I would run past this one house and the dogs inside bark like crazy and probably woke everybody in the house up so that was the only cool thing about getting up early.


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## big_johnson1 (12 Feb 2005)

honestyrules said:
			
		

> Just a funny point to add-on to this!
> Before i joined, i used to be a salesman in a hardware store. One day, i seen two guys walking around in combats. They were looking around like if they were "christening the ground". Looked like they were doing house clearing or something!.
> 
> That was pretty funny to me. Looked like "show-offs"!



You're an engineer.. When I was a 648 we were at the hardware store all the time, purchasing for jobs.. You can't honestly be expected to change into civvies every time you need to pick up supplies.


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## PeterLT (12 Feb 2005)

I remember one time being in Winnipeg at the Polo Park Mall. A young Air Force 2nd Lt was at the food bar without any head dress, his sunglasses nicely placed on top of his head tucked into his hair and his sweater draped garishly over his shoulders with the sleeves tied up in front. He was trying very hard to impress the young ladies off school and seemed to be awaiting a tennis match at the club, very preppy. I pulled him aside and as it was my duty to do so, informed him of who I was and with all due respect and tact that I could muster, asked him to wear the damned uniform Her Majesty issued you with bloody properly. He brushed me off with, "Lighten up Sergeant, it's none of your business." I noted his name and the following day sent a memo to the Base CWO. When I got back to my unit (RSS Thunder Bay), the reply was passed to me verbally that I should mind my own business and stop bothering the Airmen.

I would say that if you want to go pub crawling in uniform, do it in blue.

Peter


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## johnny_boy (12 Feb 2005)

I am in the PRes in Halifax which is fairly used to a military presense thanks to the Navy, Airforce, and Army (Dockyard, Shearwater, Amouries, etc, respectively). Anyways, it was always made clear to me that you DO NOT wear your uniform unless you are being paid to do so. With the exceptions being the one stop rule on the way home or to work. 

I myself, and other in my unit always head out to McDonalds, or Wendys or the like for a quick bite to eat after our parade nights and then head home.. But I would never think about wearing my uniform to the bar or a sit down restaraunt even. 

Also, at my university I've seen quite a few people in class in Navy uniform. They're always wearing it properly and what not, so I always assume they head to work right after, or were at work right before and don't have time to change. 

I guess it just boils down to it's a work uniform, and when you wear it you represent a large organization by default, whether you like it or not. So it comes down to pure common sense. Just the same as when I worked at Blockbuster, I'm sure they wouldn't let me stand drunk outside the store in my uniform telling customers to F off, even if I was off the clock 

Common sense, that's all there is to it.


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## honestyrules (12 Feb 2005)

To Feral..

Yes I'm now a 646 and i do have to pick up stuff at the local supplier. When we are in the area to do a job, i agree that we can't get changed before the pick-up. But, you're bringing money into the community and it's time to do the "PR" thing! You're now in the "spotlight" and your highers know where you are and what you're doing...
At the time, you're "on duty"...

Normal dress of the day being combats, there is nothing wrong there...

Honesty


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## honestyrules (12 Feb 2005)

Johnny boy , you're right on and the example is quite funny, but true!
Honesty


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## Navalsnpr (12 Feb 2005)

johnny_boy said:
			
		

> Also, at my university I've seen quite a few people in class in Navy uniform. They're always wearing it properly and what not, so I always assume they head to work right after, or were at work right before and don't have time to change.



Many of these guys would be in the RegF and are given permission to leave work to attend a University Class and then return to work. As long as your dress is of a good standard, it is seen as a common thing to do here in Halifax.


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## Danjanou (12 Feb 2005)

Pbi That wouldn't have been a certain watering hole at King and Dufferin now would it?


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## NCRCrow (12 Feb 2005)

"I have a problem with the people who go straight from work to a bar and sit behind a VLT for 3-4 hours and are still in their combats(Naval Combats included!)"

I love that statement, because I hate NCD's with a passion and I detest VLT's. 

VLT's(video lottery terminals) have destroyed enough sailor's lives and families. I am was relieved when Stad and the messes got rid of them.

It got so bad in HFX, I had to go on a Supervisor's Gambling Awareness Course.

I would like to see NOMEX coverall's onboard and salt/peppers ashore and with dress patrol at the Brow and the gates.

Ol Joe Comeaus' aka North End Pub the real navy mess and casino.

Lovin it!


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## Strike (12 Feb 2005)

> In around Petawawa, having pints, in uniform, at a commercial establishment off base will get you HUNG!



Have to disagree with that one.  Couple of times, after finishing a night shift early (which is usually in the winter -- the only good thing about that season) the bunch of us have hit Kelsey's for a late dinner and maybe a drink.  Never heard anything of it.  Now, does that mean I would do the same at Boston Pizza?  Of course not.  Then you're obviously going out of your way.  Once again, common sense.  I've hit the local bar in Deep River regularly on my way home from work (again at night) and sat having a beer (usually bought by the owner.  How can you say no to that?) while waiting for my order.  Then I'm off home to eat.

I think the above quote clearly shows that things need to be taken in context.  IOW, don't go out on a bender, but having a couple with your buddies at a restaurant (NOT a bar) before you head home is probably okay.  One just has to remember that when they are wearing a uniform they are representing the whole of the military, and should act accordingly.  It's not really fair to set a time limit on when you can't go out in public in uniform since there are too many of us who work nights on a regular basis and that "rule" could easily get shot down if you were charged because of it.


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## Gunner98 (12 Feb 2005)

The person with the most brass or spaghetti makes the rules.   Local Base Standing Orders dictate the "local law of the land."   Depending on the CF Alert level and the imbiber's intent, a quick pint with a supper on the way home is not a chargeable offence.   The CF legal system is more transparent and balanced than some of the threads imply.   Having one pint with lunch or supper, depending your duty or flying status that day is hard to condemn.   Being an enrolled piss tank regardless of your mode of dress is indictable.   Two uniformed lawyers at a Court Martial would have a hard time condemning a man unless - Alert Status, local SOs or duty/flying status dictated otherwise.   I doubt you will find anything in the Dress manual or QR&Os that disputes ( I will check next week.)   Read sentence one for final authority, one standard would be hard to keep across such a diverse purple force.


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## chrisf (12 Feb 2005)

johnny_boy said:
			
		

> Also, at my university I've seen quite a few people in class in Navy uniform. They're always wearing it properly and what not, so I always assume they head to work right after, or were at work right before and don't have time to change.



Or perhaps they're having their education subsidized by the forces... don't know if officer candidates attending civillian universities are required to wear uniforms to classes...


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## Inch (12 Feb 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Or perhaps they're having their education subsidized by the forces... don't know if officer candidates attending civillian universities are required to wear uniforms to classes...



No they're not. In my last year of college (which was subsidized by the mob), the only time I wore a uniform between the end of BOTC 1 in Aug 99 until the start of BOTC II in May 2000 was Remembrance Day. I also took a few courses at Queen's while I was waiting to start basic flight training and I never once wore a uniform to class.


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## Navalsnpr (12 Feb 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Or perhaps they're having their education subsidized by the forces... don't know if officer candidates attending civilian universities are required to wear uniforms to classes...



There are two UTPNCM candidates that live in my Condo here in Halifax and attend local Universities.

They aren't required to wear their uniform at University


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## pbi (12 Feb 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Pbi That wouldn't have been a certain watering hole at King and Dufferin now would it?



The places we hung out at included the Palace (long gone-thank God-the Health Board probably burnt it down...), the New Windsor House on Queen St east of Yonge and the Lancaster south of King (both now gone, IIRC), the Nag's Head at the Eaton's Centre (used to run into the 48th and Rifles there); and of course in the summer there were the pubs of Ontario Place down on the lakefront, a short stroll from the Armoury. We used to get quite out of control in some of these places: I don't think I would find it so funny now.....



> Should go back to the old days where you were required to wear your DEUs to and from work and had to have a chit to wear PT strip if you wanted to jog to and from work.



What "old days" were these? Around the time of the ballista? I have been in the Regular Army since 1982 and I have never, ever encountered either one of these rules, anywhere. What time period are we speaking of here?

Cheers.


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## STONEY (12 Feb 2005)

Ahhhh The old days. When i went to boot camp we were told to pack up all our civvies including underwear & tooth brush and send it home to mummy. We were told ,If the service wants you to have anything it will issue you with it. That was the last i saw of civilian dress for at least 2 years. We wore uniforms 24/7 even PT required a uniform dress. When leaving base a dress uniform was required and before going out the gate a formal inspection was done to ensure a proper standard was maintained as 20% or so were usually refused permission to proceed. If you wanted to wear civilian clothes you had to join a locker club off base that supplied changing rooms , lounges ,washrooms and lockers for you to store civilian clothes. People in uniform were everywhere, bars, nightclubs, dancehalls, theatres, hockey rinks & public parks, along with MP'S keeping an eye on things. Ive hitchiked half way across Canada a couple of times in uniform & never had to wait longer than 30 minutes for a ride. People on leave even wore their uniforms with pride around their hometowns.  It took a long time of gradual change for things to come 180 degrees. I'm not so sure all the changes are for the better but then again.


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## kincanucks (13 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> The places we hung out at included the Palace (long gone-thank God-the Health Board probably burnt it down...), the New Windsor House on Queen St east of Yonge and the Lancaster south of King (both now gone, IIRC), the Nag's Head at the Eaton's Centre (used to run into the 48th and Rifles there); and of course in the summer there were the pubs of Ontario Place down on the lakefront, a short stroll from the Armoury. We used to get quite out of control in some of these places: I don't think I would find it so funny now.....
> 
> What "old days" were these? Around the time of the ballista? I have been in the Regular Army since 1982 and I have never, ever encountered either one of these rules, anywhere. What time period are we speaking of here?
> 
> ...


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## Navalsnpr (13 Feb 2005)

Up to 3 or 4 years ago, Navy personnel in Halifax had to wear their uniforms to/from work. Only if you had a PT chit were you permitted to wear PT to/from work.

This ceased a couple of years ago and the only time since that we have had to wear our uniforms has been during the days following 9/11 and during the union strike.


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## johnny_boy (13 Feb 2005)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> This ceased a couple of years ago and the only time since that we have had to wear our uniforms has been during the days following 9/11 and during the union strike.



Yeah, that's the only time I ever wore my uniform while not being paid was to get into the dockyard while the strike was on. I had to pick up some kit from the clothing store and when I made my appointment they suggested I wear my uniform as the strikers weren't letting people in civvies in or something like that. Needless to say, I had no trouble getting in.


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## pbi (15 Feb 2005)

It sounds to me like we are confusing Army and Navy on this dress question. I recall that when I served in 3 PPCLI at Work Point Barracks in Esquimalt, (1983-86) we were able to wear combat off base, no problem at all. The RSM of our battalion received several irate phone calls from the Coxswain at the naval base, complaining about this, since the Navy required a much stricter code. The Coxswain was politely reminded that we did not follow Navy dress regulations, and the issue faded away as far as I know.

On the other hand, as Army subalterns visiting the Navy base for admin, we were surprised to find that Navy types did not salute 2Lts. Apparently the Navy at that time did not consider them to be worthy of a salute, for some reason. Perhaps because in the Navy a 2Lt is not yet permitted command of anything? I don't know: I'm sure some of our Naval friends can fill me in.

Cheers


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## gorf (15 Feb 2005)

I am taking the military co-op and am wondering....can I only wear my combat pants and T-shirt for periods 1 and 2 and then just put on the shirt, boots etc. after? I would like to do this because for one I do not have any time to change and also I do not want stupid people at school putting chalk or something on it. Otherwise I guess I will have to just wear my whole uniform.


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## George Wallace (15 Feb 2005)

No you can not.

There are strict rules against wearing "Mixed Dress".

GW


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## gorf (15 Feb 2005)

Alright....thanks for clearing that up


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## Navalsnpr (15 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> On the other hand, as Army subalterns visiting the Navy base for admin, we were surprised to find that Navy types did not salute 2Lts. Apparently the Navy at that time did not consider them to be worthy of a salute, for some reason. Perhaps because in the Navy a 2Lt is not yet permitted command of anything? I don't know: I'm sure some of our Naval friends can fill me in.



Never have seen that ever happen. I'd hope that everyone in the CF understands what a commission is all about. If I were a 2Lt (A/SLT) and wasn't saluted, I'd be jacking the person up.

Mind you in Gagetown back in the early 90's, most RegF personnel wouldn't salute CIC officers..... They hold the same commission that a Reserve or RegF Officer holds.


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## Pyromechanica (15 Feb 2005)

Got a question about dress.

I'm currently doing weekend BMQ and I want to train up before my 13km ruck march.
I plan on filling up my rucksack and taking it on a march in my own time around my neighbourhood at night.

Am I allowed to wearing my boots (and carry my rucksack) in my civvies? Or is CF THAT strict about dress not on duty?


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## Horse_Soldier (15 Feb 2005)

Pyromechanica said:
			
		

> Got a question about dress.
> 
> I'm currently doing weekend BMQ and I want to train up before my 13km ruck march.
> I plan on filling up my rucksack and taking it on a march in my own time around my neighbourhood at night.
> ...


I don't see anything wrong with your plan.  I've known many a soldier who trained in that or a similar way.  At one point when I was younger and my knees better able to take it, I'd do some of my regular jogging in civvy PT gear & combat boots.


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## big_johnson1 (15 Feb 2005)

Haha, I was doing exactly that (hiking with civvie shorts/t-shirt, combat boots and rucksack) while preparing for BMQ and some guy pulled over on the side of the road and gave me crap, asked for my name/rank/svc # and unit, and said he was going to report me    Never heard anything more about it though.


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## Ralph Wigum (15 Feb 2005)

Pyromechanica said:
			
		

> Got a question about dress.
> 
> I'm currently doing weekend BMQ and I want to train up before my 13km ruck march.
> I plan on filling up my rucksack and taking it on a march in my own time around my neighbourhood at night.
> ...



On my BMQ training my course was instructed that we are not permitted to mix CF clothing with civi clothes. I am not sure if there are consequences though :warstory: to mixing CF clothes with civi's. If anyone knows could you respond. 
Thanks


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## P Kaye (15 Feb 2005)

In Ottawa, you see uniforms everywhere.  People will go out for lunch, or stop by a restaraunt or pub after work in uniform.  Some transitway stops are right beside shopping plazas, so it's very common to see people in uniform stopping by stores to pick up things before or after work.
It's not a big deal, unless you wear a uniform at an obviously inappropriate time and/or behave in a way that does not reflect well on the CF.  If you're going out for the night, change first.  Don't wear the uniform to a nightclub in hopes of picking up chicks. 
If you're stopping by a pub on the way home for a beer, just behave yourself and it's not a big deal.
That's my cut on it, anyway.


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## Armageddon (15 Feb 2005)

Ralph, in response to the mixing civi's with kit yes you can infact be charged for it.  Although a lot of the time a verbal warning will come first as for some reason people tend to think that it isn't a problem......if so only make the mistake once.


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## canadianblue (15 Feb 2005)

> Ahhhh The old days. When i went to boot camp we were told to pack up all our civvies including underwear & tooth brush and send it home to mummy. We were told ,If the service wants you to have anything it will issue you with it. That was the last i saw of civilian dress for at least 2 years. We wore uniforms 24/7 even PT required a uniform dress. When leaving base a dress uniform was required and before going out the gate a formal inspection was done to ensure a proper standard was maintained as 20% or so were usually refused permission to proceed. If you wanted to wear civilian clothes you had to join a locker club off base that supplied changing rooms , lounges ,washrooms and lockers for you to store civilian clothes. People in uniform were everywhere, bars, nightclubs, dancehalls, theatres, hockey rinks & public parks, along with MP'S keeping an eye on things. Ive hitchiked half way across Canada a couple of times in uniform & never had to wait longer than 30 minutes for a ride. People on leave even wore their uniforms with pride around their hometowns.   It took a long time of gradual change for things to come 180 degrees. I'm not so sure all the changes are for the better but then again.



I like the way that sounds. If I get into the armed forces I know that I'm gonna wear my uniform with pride. As long as members act professionally and courteously in uniform, then why not.


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## Greg_o (15 Feb 2005)

About two months ago I saw a young guy(probably early 20's) on the GO train wearing his CADPAT. Tried to see what was on his berret, but didnt want to look like I was staring at him. Also a reserve Sgt came to my school yesterday to talk about RMC and the military and he was wearing just a green vest(looked like a pullover, light blue dress shirt under) and like dark green dress pants(are these BDU's?)


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## Da_man (15 Feb 2005)

I dont see anything wrong with wearing combat boots and rucksack for personal training.. anyone have an "official" word on this?


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## bossdog (15 Feb 2005)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> As long as members act professionally and courteously in uniform, then why not.



...except on Remembrance Day...AaRgH!


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## my72jeep (15 Feb 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Should go back to the old days where you were required to wear your DEUs to and from work and had to have a chit to wear PT strip if you wanted to jog to and from work.   I don't know what happen to wearing your uniform when flying on duty but that should be brought back too.   Should never be ashamed to wear your uniform in public and you should take every opportunity to do it and you should never disgrace yourself and the CF while wearing it.


I know personally were were Descuraged from wearing any uniform on civicircraft or buses post 9-11 but that has been changed now I believe.


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## 1feral1 (15 Feb 2005)

Mate, why wrinkle your CF's on a civvy flight when you can wear civvies? I wear my unifrom to work on Tues and Thurs because I am living on base in theSGTs Mess. Once we move into our new place off base, I will be in civvies (PT gear) coming and going. Mon-Wed-Fri are sports/PT parades, so I come in PT gear those times.

I am very proud of my service here and in Canada (I don't need to advertise it), but I see no reason aside of an authorised parade (11 Nov and 25 Apr etc) to be in unifrom outside normal working hours, unless its a brief stop coming to work or leaving work for petrol, groceries, or ATM etc. Definatly no pubs or clubs. Thats what Messes are for.

As for wearing cbt boots for PT after hours, you'll pay later in life. Here they can be worn, but in runs under 2km only. As for 'rucking up' and going for a helll run, I see no problem with that (you'll pay later for that too - there is better ways to train), but I would be wearing some good Xtrainers, not those horrid black heavy CF combat boots! I don't miss those things for a minute!

Cheers,

Wes


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## pbi (15 Feb 2005)

Feral said:
			
		

> Haha, I was doing exactly that (hiking with civvie shorts/t-shirt, combat boots and rucksack) while preparing for BMQ and some guy pulled over on the side of the road and gave me crap, asked for my name/rank/svc # and unit, and said he was going to report me      Never heard anything more about it though.



This person was IMHO an idiot with nothing better to do. PT with boots and rucksack with PT kit is very common throughout the Army: I've done it lots of times.

Cheers


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## childs56 (15 Feb 2005)

my understanding out of the dress regs is that as long as the kit does not specificlay idnetify you as a member of the CF then it is alright to wear it. Ie wearing of any rank or insignia is forbidden, while weaing a pair of cbt pants and boots is ok. Myabe the rules have changed. I am a person who will wear the pants out camping/ fishing. they are comfortable and such. As for wearing something that is better for you. Well i have to say one thing, should we wear running shoes while training, or should we wear the clothes we wear to war while training. I understand the whole make yourself more comfortable but the bottom line is i have seen guys who can run like the dickens in a pair of running shorts and shoes, throw some webbing and a rifle on them and say go, due to the fact they are not use to wearing the kit they tend to struggle. remeber any fool can be be uncomfortable, make your kit fit you and things will be allright.


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## Da_man (15 Feb 2005)

I dont think you can wear cbt pants for camping...  There was a story on these boards a while ago about some private who had shotgun shells in his parka or something because he went hunting with it, and the RSM wasnt pleased at all


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## George Wallace (15 Feb 2005)

CTD

You don't have to wear rank or unit flashes on a uniform to be easily recognizable as a Soldier.   If you want to look unprofessional and like a welfare case feel free to do so, but don't actively show disrespect for the uniform if you are a soldier.  How often have you seen "Shit Pits" in uniform; who no matter what could never look good in a uniform?  What was your impression?  Now think of what impression your wearing parts of your issue uniform to go camping, or to the lake, or mowing the lawn, gives to other members of the Profession?

GW


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## NCRCrow (15 Feb 2005)

Mixed Dress is not allowed and looks stupid anyway. To me it shows disrespect for your uniform and makes u look like a loser.

We just got a PAY RAISE....................go to MEC and buy some real stuff.

What a lame THREAD!!!

Go and give your boots some polish or something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## johnny_boy (16 Feb 2005)

Not to derail, but we got a payraise? What, who, when, where, how much?!


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Feb 2005)

Search for it   :


			
				johnny_boy said:
			
		

> Not to derail, but we got a payraise? What, who, when, where, how much?!



Search for it  : and don't change the topic.


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## pbi (16 Feb 2005)

My impression was that Feral was doing PT on his own. To me that is an OK time to wear the boots with civvie PT dress. However, I agree fully that beyond that, wearing bits and pieces of combat clothing looks ridiculous.

Cheers.


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## c_canuk (16 Feb 2005)

I don't understand why we are discouraged from wearing our uniforms in public... you should have pride in your uniform. Personally I think anyone who thinks otherwise should get the hell out.

now if someone gets stupid in uniform, they are subject to the exact same code of conduct as they are in civvies... so just make it known (already done) that acting out in uniform while in public is not tolerated and will be dealt with... I suppose though that it's harder to police those in uniform than to just ban wearing uniforms in public, however this removes us from the public eye which is a very very bad thing

When the public is not used to our presence, they don't trust us, they only know what they see on the news, so when we do see us it's a big deal and we are under a lot of scrutiny.

With Urban exercises increasing in frequency we need the Civvies to know exactly what to expect of us, we recently had a patroll in an outlying town harassed by some man who thought they were putting the town under military control, not merely doing an exercise... People fear what they don't know, the Canadian military needs the people we protect to know us, and know what we do and how we do it, and why. It sounds really stupid, but if you've never seen military personnel and all of a sudden there is a section patrolling down your street with full battle gear, what are you to think? They don't see us as people, they see us as cogs in a war machine... perhaps being seen in familiar settings in uniform can help alleviate this, and make us seem more approachable and more human.

right now we are out of sight and out of mind as budgets have shown and when we are in sight it's a shock and can cause panic.


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## big_johnson1 (16 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> My impression was that Feral was doing PT on his own. To me that is an OK time to wear the boots with civvie PT dress. However, I agree fully that beyond that, wearing bits and pieces of combat clothing looks ridiculous.
> 
> Cheers.



You got it pbi, that's exactly what I was doing. It was actually recommended to me by the recruiting center to get ready for basic.. Partially to break the boots in, and partially to break my back into the rucksack. I'm glad I did it as I was one of the few guys on course who didn't get any blisters and I was used to wearing the ruck already so those first few marches weren't such a shock to the body. And when I was training for the mountain man I was running with the rucksack almost every day (no boots though, I'm not that nuts).. Got more than a few strange looks and had to explain to some of the older fella's on the trails that I was Air Force not Army   but other than that I never had a problem with it again.

And I'm guilty of wearing my fleece with my civvies sometimes when I'm doing work around the house and it's cool outside, but I agree, mixing combat pants and civvies or the combat shirt with civvies looks stupid and doesn't represent the forces well. I especially hate it when kids wander around with the OD combats with rank and epaulets still on. I see that fairly often at UVic


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## George Wallace (16 Feb 2005)

Feral

Don't you just love those type; the ones who run around wearing parts of the uniform, and then protest against anything resembling authority?

c-canuk

You have touched on something that I think there is no solution - stupidity.  Some people are too thick to realize that there is an Armed Force to protect them and that that Armed Force needs to train.  I remember an incident a few years back when our Sig O when off on a Recce while on Exercise.  He went in a Coyote to Recce routes for a Nav Ex and stopped in one of Ottawa's outlying 'villages'.  He and his gunner dismounted and walked around town and when they returned to their vehicle they were surrounded by three police cars, one OPP and two City of Ottawa, and a couple of the officers had their hands on their guns.  I don't know what was going through their minds, with three guys dressed in Cadpat, carrying automatic weapons, next to a great big green eight wheeled vehicle with a 25 mm Chaingun?  We had quite a few laughs for the next few days when we rehashed the story they told on their return.  Needless to say, some of Canada's Police officers don't even know the first thing about the military, even if they work in close proximity to a large Defence Establishment (ie. NDHQ in Ottawa's case.).


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## big_johnson1 (16 Feb 2005)

GW

It's even better to see someone protesting our government while wearing the old "I am Canadian" t-shirt. I don't get that one.


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## George Wallace (16 Feb 2005)

It has got to be the beer.....


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## big bad john (16 Feb 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You have touched on something that I think there is no solution - stupidity.   Some people are too thick to realize that there is an Armed Force to protect them and that that Armed Force needs to train.   I remember an incident a few years back when our Sig O when off on a Recce while on Exercise.   He went in a Coyote to Recce routes for a Nav Ex and stopped in one of Ottawa's outlying 'villages'.   He and his gunner dismounted and walked around town and when they returned to their vehicle they were surrounded by three police cars, one OPP and two City of Ottawa, and a couple of the officers had their hands on their guns.   I don't know what was going through their minds, with three guys dressed in Cadpat, carrying automatic weapons, next to a great big green eight wheeled vehicle with a 25 mm Chaingun?   We had quite a few laughs for the next few days when we rehashed the story they told on their return.   Needless to say, some of Canada's Police officers don't even know the first thing about the military, even if they work in close proximity to a large Defence Establishment (ie. NDHQ in Ottawa's case.).



In the UK, we used to get "surrounded" by the Police and old Marines.  All they wanted to do was 1) See the 'new' kit
                                                                                                                                         2) "help"
                                                                                                                                         3) Buy us BEER!


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## Thompson_JM (16 Feb 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You have touched on something that I think there is no solution - stupidity.   Some people are too thick to realize that there is an Armed Force to protect them and that that Armed Force needs to train.   I remember an incident a few years back when our Sig O when off on a Recce while on Exercise.   He went in a Coyote to Recce routes for a Nav Ex and stopped in one of Ottawa's outlying 'villages'.   He and his gunner dismounted and walked around town and when they returned to their vehicle they were surrounded by three police cars, one OPP and two City of Ottawa, and a couple of the officers had their hands on their guns.   I don't know what was going through their minds, with three guys dressed in Cadpat, carrying automatic weapons, next to a great big green eight wheeled vehicle with a 25 mm Chaingun?   We had quite a few laughs for the next few days when we rehashed the story they told on their return.   Needless to say, some of Canada's Police officers don't even know the first thing about the military, even if they work in close proximity to a large Defence Establishment (ie. NDHQ in Ottawa's case.).




One of our Regforce UTA's was pulled over in oakville by Halton Regional Police and asked what the heck a "Canada" Plate was (referring of course to the CFR. thankfully he was in uniform so it made it a little easier to explain to her, but even still, its true that the education most police get about the army is nil. (Note: it was a commercial 8pax van that was stopped. would have been more comical had it been a MILCOT or LSVW etc..)


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## pbi (16 Feb 2005)

> I don't understand why we are discouraged from wearing our uniforms in public... you should have pride in your uniform. Personally I think anyone who thinks otherwise should get the hell out.



I didn't know we were discouraged from this. We are discouraged from wearing it stupidly or incorrectly, or in a situation that will do discredit to HMCF, but other than that, I have never felt that the Army discouraged me from wearing my uniform in public. I think it is rather that there are some of us who do not feel comfortable doing it.



> Needless to say, some of Canada's Police officers don't even know the first thing about the military, even if they work in close proximity to a large Defence Establishment (ie. NDHQ in Ottawa's case.).



This is very true: apart from their uniforms and rank badges, there really isn't anything very military about our protective services anymore, nor are they well informed about the military, and I definitely include the RCMP in this. I am reminded of an incident during the Southern Ontario Snowstorm, during which we (LFCA) deployed a troop of Bisons into the downtown core fire halls of the City of Toronto. The Chief of the TFD was visiting one of the halls where the Bisons were quartered, and commented that "I have never seen a military vehicle before". Now, consider that this was the Chief of the country's largest fire service, who must have been in the service for 25-30 years, and in his duties had travelled all over the city. In Toronto there are three armouries, two of them downtown.

In my Dom Ops dealings wth the police and fire services over the years, I have found a severe lack of any useful or correct knowledge of the military. A few years ago we started bringing their senior officers to Army Staff College to attend the module on Dom Ops: IMHO they need it.

Cheers


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## davidk (16 Feb 2005)

Da_man said:
			
		

> I dont see anything wrong with wearing combat boots and rucksack for personal training.. anyone have an "official" word on this?



The official word is disturbingly ambiguous. CF dress regs stipulate that you can wear what you want mixed with civvy clothes so long as your army gear doesn't identify you as a member of the CF (so no flags, "CANADA" tags, rank/insignia etc). _However,_ your mileage may vary; when we went to the clothing store and someone asked about this, the Sgt said "no" fairly bluntly, and even forbade us to wear our new, stiff Mk. III boots outside our homes and the armoury to break them in. The best thing to do, I suppose, would be to take it up with your unit, since each one seems to have slightly (read: radically) different policy on how to wear the uniform. Personally, I'd feel safe wearing the boots and rucksack so long as I knew that my regiment's LCol wasn't watching me from his window.


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## brihard (17 Feb 2005)

I know that I personally wear my Wet Weather Boots almost daily. Initially it was to break them in, but then I blew through my pair fo Civvie boots. The Gortex boots are damned comfortable, and with the minor issue of having no grip on ice, are perfectly suitable winter boots for southeastern Ontario, aprticualrly considering the mild winters of recent years.

Here locally (Kingston, ON), it's not uncopmmon to see uniforms in town. During weekdays, lots of folks from the signals units on abse will wnader into town over lunch break to get errands done; I see a lot at the bank near my place. And of course, the first year RMC students are in uniform whenever they're off campus.

Whenever I happen to be working down at the armouries during the day (Rare- I'm trying to swing some more class B, but the budget is thin...) I'll generally head out to grab some food around lunch time, and of course this means heading out in uniform. It's common to see CADPAT on buses, in Timmie's (Oh, the number of uniforms in Timmie's...) and in most other public places. Occasionally my buddy and I will stop in for a quick bite at Harvey's on the way home after thursday parades too, and ahve never taken any grief about being in uniform.

Here around town the reaction to uniforms is generally pretty positive, or simply curious at worst. I was flattered the other day to have three or four young women honking and screaming at me from a car as I made my way home after work (Got dropped off slightly early to pick something up at the store).  I'm sure they'd feel a bit of chagrin had they realized I'm only 18, but it was good for a private smirk nonetheless.

Besides that, it's also fairly common to see people in combats at the local paintball field. Not just the old OD green, but CADPAT are evident most of the times I'm there- though with rank and insignia stripped of course. The paintball palce sued to have different forms of battle dress hanging on the wall, and I was once pretty pissed off to see a full set of CADPAT (AR) there. Never did find out where they got it- and yes, it was the real stuff.

I recall being encouraged to go on personal ruck marches when off duty by several NCOs, in combat boots with the issued ruck. Locally there seem to be few restrictions on uniform or kit in public as long as you don't do anything to offend the honour or integrity of the CF.


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## George Wallace (17 Feb 2005)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I know that I personally wear my Wet Weather Boots almost daily. Initially it was to break them in, but then I blew through my pair fo Civvie boots. The Gortex boots are damned comfortable, and with the minor issue of having no grip on ice, are perfectly suitable winter boots for southeastern Ontario, aprticualrly considering the mild winters of recent years.



See....that could be construed as misuse of Government property.   DND is not responsible for providing you with winter boots at public expense for other than Duty Purposes.   Does DND now have the responsibility to provide all Canadians with a good pair of winter boots?   No.   So you have bent the rules, and exposed yourself on a public forum.....  

GW


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## johnny_boy (17 Feb 2005)

I hate when I see people playing paintball in any sort of camo.. and especially cadpat now that I'm in the military. To wear it when you're not supposed to is one thing, but wearing it playing paintball? That pisses me off. It could be the fact that I only play tournament paintball anyways and I think wearing any camo playing paintball is dumb period. Besides the fact, people SHOULD NOT WEAR CADPAT PLAYING PAINTBALL! Every time I see someone wearing it I always tell them not to, unless they're a civvie who just happened to stumble across their own set.. in which case I go "Bleh.. never mind"


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## brihard (17 Feb 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> See....that could be construed as misuse of Government property.   DND is not responsible for providing you with winter boots at public expense for other than Duty Purposes.   Does DND now have the responsibility to provide all Canadians with a good pair of winter boots?   No.   So you have bent the rules, and exposed yourself on a public forum.....
> 
> GW



I recall readign a CFAO or Q'sR&O some time back that specifically allowed the wearing of boots and a couple other items while in civilian dress, as they were not considered to idnetify one as a CF member. Unfortunately, I can't recall which, adn ahvne't found it again. That being said, I confess to wearing GORTEX boots. You got me, George.

Johnny, we play a different style of paintball, you and I. Whyile you dress in day-glo and run around with a DM4 or a Cocker (or whatever you may use), I'm content to sneak around in the woods with my good ol' Tippmann and have fun there. I enjoy the odd game of speedball too, but I simply don't have the cash to keep up with you guys in paint or marker technology- and one or two balls a second is perfectly adequate for any firefight I've ever gotten myself in. A well tuned Flatline barrel is a wonderful thing.  ;D


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## George Wallace (17 Feb 2005)

Thanks for your comments Brihard.  It does show me that you have yet to realize what discipline and Dress and Deportment involve.  I am sure that you think you are correct in your actions, but to me it looks like you are disrespecting me and all the others who have served when you do so.  I don't think that this country has yet to become a Socialist country, nor do we have National Service.  We are not a Police State.  Nor are we a bunch of Welfare bums.  You have joined the CF, as a Reservist, and are paid enough to buy a good pair of boots, or jacket, or ski jacket, or such, and don't have to make the rest of us look like we are Unprofessional in the employ of the Government by your actions.

GW


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## BDTyre (17 Feb 2005)

Damn them...wearing CADPAT while playing paintball!
http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=329



			
				johnny_boy said:
			
		

> I hate when I see people playing paintball in any sort of camo.. and especially cadpat now that I'm in the military. To wear it when you're not supposed to is one thing, but wearing it playing paintball? That pisses me off. It could be the fact that I only play tournament paintball anyways and I think wearing any camo playing paintball is dumb period. Besides the fact, people SHOULD NOT WEAR CADPAT PLAYING PAINTBALL! Every time I see someone wearing it I always tell them not to, unless they're a civvie who just happened to stumble across their own set.. in which case I go "Bleh.. never mind"


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## P Kaye (17 Feb 2005)

GW, I think you might be being a bit too hard on the guy, if all he's doing is wearing his boots.
Before I went on course, I spent a couple of months wearing my Mk IIIs.   I had them polished so they looked nice, and always had my civilian pant legs outside them.   So without lifiting up my pant legs, it was not at all obvious that I was wearing combat boots.
I wore them for the purpose of getting my feet accustomed to them, and "breaking them in".   It worked wonders.   There really is no subsititute for wearing a pair of shoes/boots for over 8 hours a day to get your feet really comfortable in them.
I don't think I was being disrespectful to you, the Queen, the CF or any soldier therein, by wearing my boots in this way.


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## Michael Dorosh (17 Feb 2005)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I recall readign a CFAO or Q'sR&O some time back that specifically allowed the wearing of boots and a couple other items while in civilian dress, as they were not considered to idnetify one as a CF member. Unfortunately, I can't recall which, adn ahvne't found it again. That being said, I confess to wearing GORTEX boots. You got me, George.



The rule applies, I think, to privately purchased CF clothing (ie surplus), not to misusing issue stuff.  As George says, you weren't issued the stuff to wear out while hiking, camping, shovelling snow at home or doing any of that "civvie" stuff - we have a responsibility to the taxpayers.  I know that seems like a joke in this day and age, but if we break faith with them, why then should we be concerned when "they" (the people) break faith with us?


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## my72jeep (17 Feb 2005)

This has been covered in this thread at the start but dress regs do allow you to wear some uniform parts with civvies. boots, gloves, toque, gabardine over coat. over shoes that kind of non operanational stuff.


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## big_johnson1 (17 Feb 2005)

Ok, here's one to throw out for the wolves..

The Price is Right, with US servicemen in their uniforms jumping up and down and screaming like little girls while trying to win prizes on international tv.

Comments?


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## johnny_boy (17 Feb 2005)

BDTyre said:
			
		

> darn them...wearing CADPAT while playing paintball!
> http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=329




That's different


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## brihard (17 Feb 2005)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> This has been covered in this thread at the start but dress regs do allow you to wear some uniform parts with civvies. boots, gloves, toque, gabardine over coat. over shoes that kind of non operanational stuff.



Thanks sir- that's exactly what I was referring to; I simply couldn't find it.

GW, I recognize your opinion, and respect it, though I must also respectfully disagree. The exact brand of gortex boots we use are, as I recall, a Commercial Off The Shelf item- the exact same boots are available on the civilian market. They're all over Army Surplus stores, and the civilian oensa re indistinguishable from the issue ones, minus the name and last three scratched out on the inside of some of the pairs. I don't wear them heavily- probably less than a kilometer of walking a day on average. They're tough boots, and designed to last for years of military use- and that's in the regforce, to boot (no pun intended). Hell, my mom still wears her 23 year old combat boots from when she was in, and they're in almost perfect condition with thousands of miles on them. 

As someone else mentioned, civvie pants aren't bloused, so on the odd chance that someone stares at my feet, they'll see the bottom third of what appears to be a work boot (which, for better or worse, it is), unless they know exactly what they're looking at. And if they know that, they also know that these boots are available in army surplus anyway. I've seen plenty of civilians wearing them. I certainly don't see how the odd person wearing black boots equates us toa  police sttate in people's eyes anyways; they don't really qualify as jack boots, and I definitely don't fit the stereotype- visual or otherwise - as a fascist thug. 

I have nothing but the highest respect for every person who has served before or with me, and I don't think my choice of footwear particularly impacts on this. I always comport myself in public in a polite and reasonable manner, and I assure you that in the odd chance someone was firm in their mind that I was military simply absed on seeing my boots, my actions would do nothing to discredit the forces. When I see the kids walking around with combat pants and boots (even Cadpat these days- and the real stuff, not that Frontenac crap) and a T-shirt that tells the reader to go *** himself, I think wearing a good set of boots really says nothing in comparison. I can walk into the surplus palce downtown, and find CADPAT bivvy bags, new Gortex jackets, windpants,and bib overalls (which even I don't have yet), and even on a few cases full Tac-Vests, I'd hope that I can avoid being condemned for wearing my boots out and about from time to time.



			
				Feral said:
			
		

> Ok, here's one to throw out for the wolves..
> 
> The Price is Right, with US servicemen in their uniforms jumping up and down and screaming like little girls while trying to win prizes on international tv.
> 
> Comments?



Please tell me you're joking?



			
				johnny_boy said:
			
		

> That's different



Oh man, I wish my unit could do that... I'd be the happiest guy out there, I guarantee.


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## johnny_boy (17 Feb 2005)

The Price is Right frequently has specials where all the contestents are service members, all decked out in DEU and all.


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## dutchie (17 Feb 2005)

Brihard said:
			
		

> GW, I recognize your opinion, and respect it, though I must also respectfully disagree. The exact brand of gortex boots we use are, as I recall, a Commercial Off The Shelf item- the exact same boots are available on the civilian market.



The point was not that the CF boots were easily recognizable by the average civvie as being Military issue, it's that those boots were issued to you in order for you to do your job. If you are wearing them on your own time to break them in, do PT, or the like, then you are still honouring that agreement to wear them for CF use only. If you wear them because your civvie boots wore out, you are clearly not wearing them for CF use, and are in fact misusing government property and you should stop. If you were wearing them once or twice a month over the winter (like here in Vancouver), IMHO that's ok. But 1km a day/everyday is way too much.


And I have always thought the whole Price is Right thing (or Oprah for that matter) is a little ridiculous. But hey, I'm Canadian, they can do what they want.


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## brihard (17 Feb 2005)

Caesar said:
			
		

> The point was not that the CF boots were easily recognizable by the average civvie as being Military issue, it's that those boots were issued to you in order for you to do your job. If you are wearing them on your own time to break them in, do PT, or the like, then you are still honouring that agreement to wear them for CF use only. If you wear them because your civvie boots wore out, you are clearly not wearing them for CF use, and are in fact misusing government property and you should stop. If you were wearing them once or twice a month over the winter (like here in Vancouver), IMHO that's ok. But 1km a day/everyday is way too much.
> 
> 
> And I have always thought the whole Price is Right thing (or Oprah for that matter) is a little ridiculous. But hey, I'm Canadian, they can do what they want.



You're right, of course. I'm picking up a new pair of boots soon anyway- or I may have an old one shoved away in a closet; I'll have to check. Thsoe dmaned Gortex boots are just so comfortable though.


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## big_johnson1 (17 Feb 2005)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Please tell me you're joking?



Joking? Ha, I wish.. I've seen that show off an on for years (Bob Baker must be an android), and while I've never seen an episode where the entire audience is military, I've seen plenty of groups of servicemen in full uniform sitting in the rows alongside the old heffers looking to win a new fridge. Every so often one of them gets called down too, and the jumping for joy starts..

I don't think I've seen anyone other than Navy pers either. I wonder if that says something


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## 1feral1 (17 Feb 2005)

johnny_boy said:
			
		

> I hate when I see people playing paintball in any sort of camo.. and especially cadpat now that I'm in the military. To wear it when you're not supposed to is one thing, but wearing it playing paintball? That pisses me off. It could be the fact that I only play tournament paintball anyways and I think wearing any camo playing paintball is dumb period. Besides the fact, people SHOULD NOT WEAR CADPAT PLAYING PAINTBALL! Every time I see someone wearing it I always tell them not to, unless they're a civvie who just happened to stumble across their own set.. in which case I go "Bleh.. never mind"



As much as I have a bad taste in my mouth about this, its a free country, and our citizens should be allowed to wear anything they want (aside of impersonators and related disgusting matters) when conducting these activities.

Here paintballers etc wear AUSCAM all the time, and I don't really care at all. So, don't take it personally, you have earned the privillage to wear a uniform, so it should not worrry you. CADPAT, MARPAT, OD combats, they are playing a game.

Cheers,

Wes


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## BDTyre (18 Feb 2005)

I just hope they all remembered to wash their CADPAT w/in 24 hours.  Nothing like showing up at parade the next week with the not-so-inconspicous remains of a hot pink paint blotch.



			
				johnny_boy said:
			
		

> That's different


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## Cliffy433 (18 Feb 2005)

Feral said:
			
		

> Joking? Ha, I wish.. I've seen that show off an on for years (Bob Baker must be an android), and while I've never seen an episode where the entire audience is military, I've seen plenty of groups of servicemen in full uniform sitting in the rows alongside the old heffers looking to win a new fridge. Every so often one of them gets called down too, and the jumping for joy starts..
> 
> I don't think I've seen anyone other than Navy pers either. I wonder if that says something



As a former Cl A bum with lots of free time, I've seen TONNES (notice the metric spelling) of US Service personnel on Price is Right - of EVERY BRANCH (yes, even the USMC).  Hey, I'm all for more public wearing of the uniform - i've met people in Saskatoon who didn't know about Dundurn - as long as it's dignified.  I think the USMC mbrs are the only ones who don't jump around and squeal.  They stick to a courteous "Thank you, Bob!"

I coulda swore I saw a Cdn on the show in uniform once too, but don't quote me on that.

tlm.


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## c_canuk (18 Feb 2005)

a sgt I believe


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## Excolis (18 Feb 2005)

I have read a few posts here, and I feel that if you go out and conduct yourself in a military manner, everything should be fine.    I can see a problem if you are getting hammered and stumbling out of bars attracting negative attention to yourself, then sure, there would be a problem.  If you stop at a bar on the way home, for a drink or two, I dont think that there is any problem with that.


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## pbi (18 Feb 2005)

> If you stop at a bar on the way home, for a drink or two, I dont think that there is any problem with that.



Well...that would depend if you were driving or not. IMHO, stopping for a meal while on duty is fine, as is necessary shopping. If you are intending to go drinking, change into civvies.

Cheers


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## BDTyre (18 Feb 2005)

hopefully airborne soon said:
			
		

> If you stop at a bar on the way home, for a drink or two, I dont think that there is any problem with that.



Considering the low tolerance many provinces have for alcohol consumption and driving, be careful...it may become a problem.

Edit: PBI kinda beat me to it.


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## air533 (19 Mar 2005)

.


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## Buzz (19 Mar 2005)

Well put...common sense should prevail.
2 options could be presented here....

1)  If you have your car keep, a change of clothes in the trunk if you have a routine get together for a couple drinks and food.  and wise to take a cab after if you don't feel like taking a gamble after having more than intended.  

2) Go home first get changed and then meet somewhere after. 

If you must be in uniform to have a drink, here's a thought,  I don't see any police officers having a beer in uniform nor ambulance attendants either.  

Something to think about. 

Cheers!!
-Buzz


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## BDTyre (22 Mar 2005)

Speaking of giving the public a bad impression....

A guy that lives near me is a major in the reserves.  Coming home one day, what do I see but the major lazing about in his front yard in full uniform (minus beret) WATCHING his friends do all the hard work in his front yard.

Now I'm sure some will say I don't know the whole situation but this is not an isolated incident (although he's not always in uniform).


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## Island Ryhno (24 Mar 2005)

Anyone been to a Tim Hortons? Geez they should just rename ARMY Hortons. Here is something to think about, most of the CF personnell are living away from their families (Mom, Dad etc) I know in my family any time one flys home to see the family they want to see us in DEU's etc, they don't get to see it every day and It is a warm feeling seeing the pride on the faces of ones family. So I say; worn with pride is ok with me.


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## Meridian (24 Mar 2005)

Haha. Tim Hortons in St Jean saw more people in Cadpat than in civilian attire. At least so the clerk told me. 
 (and this is an off-ASU Timmies).


RMC used too (I believe still does) require that their 1st year Cadets wear their uniforms until a set time in the evening, and on Saturdays. This included if you needed to go into town, etc. I believe the point was to instill pride in the uniform, and to get used to wearing one even when you dont want to. Could be wrong on the point.

---

I work as a doorman/security part time at a nightclub in Ottawa... and we have bimonthly (roughly) visits from local reservists (generally the Camerons) after mess dinners, CO's parades, etc... and they usually close the night in their full dress uniforms, kilts and all.  Honestly, I dont know whats worse, to see a bunch of drunk service personnel stumbling out onto one of ottawa's busiest streets at 3am drunk and horny as all hell; or seeing one of them being physically thrown out the door by doorstaff after causing a significant scene inside.

I should note that the highest rank Ive seen in the bar was 2LT for officers and MCpl for NCM. The MCPL seemed to be babysitting everyone at first, but I received several complaints that "the old guy in uniform is grabbing my ass".

Wonderful.


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## Excolis (24 Mar 2005)

that is not right at all, if you know you are going to a bar to get hammered,  go get changed.  if you are going for a drink or two, then go home, there should not be a problem. and as for officers not drinking that is BS.   i know of many officers that drink in the bars,  you think they are walking around with tim hortons all the time?  lol


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## Big Foot (24 Mar 2005)

Meridian, up until Christmas this year, we had to wear uniform from 0800 to 1930 hrs, 7 days a week. Since the start of second semester, that has dropped to 0800-1930 Monday-Thursday, 0800-1630 Friday and no uniform until Monday morning after that. As well, on weeknights if we go into town, we have to go in uniform, just not on weekends. As you stated, it is to get us used to wearing a uniform even when we don't want to and to instill a feeling of pride in the uniform. Very good policy as far as I'm concerned.


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## oneill (24 Mar 2005)

:skull:


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## Meridian (24 Mar 2005)

to clarify, I was stating what ranks Ive seen at the bar I work at...  just the fact that I know their ranks/have seen them, should be issue enough, especially since we open at 9PM. (And dont get going till 11-12)

The highest rank Ive seen in the bar was a thick stripe, or two chevrons and a leaf.


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## combat_medic (24 Mar 2005)

Big Foot: If I recall correctly, I think I saw a photo a while back of a bunch of RMC cadets in full ceremonial #1s, complete with pillbox at a hockey game... vs. Westpoint, I think. (I think one of them had painted their face in RMC colours as well) Is this still in practice?

As for wearing of uniforms, I've seen some regimental ruck marches with combat pants and boots with Regimental t-shirt. No problems, as long as it has the permission of those in charge. I think it's pretty much common sense for anything - get permission. I know a kid who wore DEU to his grad, another wore his for a school presentation about the military, others get married in theirs. They all sent in a memo asking for permission, and it was given (with the provision of being professional while wearing it). If you're unsure about wearing something, just frikkin ask! No one expects you to know everything, and I'm sure your RSM would rather explain dress regs to you rather than having to jack you up later for mixing kit, or wearing DEU out of working hours.


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## Meridian (24 Mar 2005)

combat_medic = Yeah, that photo appears in Truth, Duty, Valour. (The book on RMC).

The Westpoint game alternates between Kingston and Westpoint, each year, doesnt it BigFoot?


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## Island Ryhno (24 Mar 2005)

The folks doing the Naval Electronics courses etc at Marine Institute here in st.john's have to wear their uniforms to school, it's mandatory.


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## canadianblue (27 Mar 2005)

I've got a question, if lets say your were attending your brothers wedding, could you attend wearing your dress uniform. Once again I don't know much about the dress code and regulations of the CF.


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## my72jeep (27 Mar 2005)

Yes with your unit CO's OK.


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## Big Foot (27 Mar 2005)

Meridian said:
			
		

> combat_medic = Yeah, that photo appears in Truth, Duty, Valour. (The book on RMC).
> 
> The Westpoint game alternates between Kingston and Westpoint, each year, doesnt it BigFoot?


Meridian: Yeah, it does. I really can't comment on this practice as I have never been to an RMC vs. West Point game, although you can ask me next year. Next year's game is up here at RMC.


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## chrisf (27 Mar 2005)

Not to add anything productive, more to confess...

I wear my old green combat pants regularly... they're the most comfortable pair of pants I own, and they are, or at least were, somewhat stylish (American Eagle was selling a knock-off copy of them last season).

Of course, I have no plan to ever turn them in... so...


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## George Wallace (27 Mar 2005)

You bad boy!  Now go sit in the corner until your next Deployment!   ;D


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## c_canuk (27 Mar 2005)

and your meal card shall be stamped "No Dessert!"  ;D


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## Armageddon (27 Mar 2005)

In response to Combat Medics earlier question to bigfoot.  Yes it is still required that the RMC and Westpoint Cadets wear full dress uniform.  So for RMC that is the scarlets complete with gloves and pillbox and the Westpoint cadets still wear their full dress greys.  The whole thing with face painting went out a couple years ago when I was there.  The Commandant and DSM felt that it did not reflect well for members of the military to be wearing a uniform and running around with face paints on......it was also a tradition that a number of RMC/Westpoint Cadets would exchange uniforms for the better part of the game, that too was stopped.


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## Big Foot (28 Mar 2005)

Thanks Armageddon, I haven't been around long enough to know these things.


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## airforcepatches (28 Mar 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Not to add anything productive, more to confess...
> 
> I wear my old green combat pants regularly... they're the most comfortable pair of pants I own, and they are, or at least were, somewhat stylish (American Eagle was selling a knock-off copy of them last season).
> 
> Of course, I have no plan to ever turn them in... so...



I very vividly remeber AE doing a knockoff of those. No originality to them at all. I like the ACTUAL pants.


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## BDG.CalgHighrs (28 Mar 2005)

If the public doesn't like my uniform (which is properly sorted), they can take it up with my chain of command. I'm not going to wear it if I don't need to, but I am also not going to inconvenience myself by not wearing it in a given situation. If my chain of command turns out not to have liked me wearing my uniform in that situation, that is fine. They can charge me or give me a warning as they please, and I won't do it again. I will not, though under any circumstances apologies for wearing my country's uniform.


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## chrisf (28 Mar 2005)

airforcepatches said:
			
		

> I very vividly remeber AE doing a knockoff of those. No originality to them at all. I like the ACTUAL pants.



I've got a tan pair of shorts from the line... never bought the pants themselves...

Very comfortable shorts...

Of course, they are NOT like the original pants... the original pants were all but indestructible


----------



## portcullisguy (20 Jan 2007)

This afternoon, whilst on my way through the baggage hall of my terminal, where I work as a border cop, my eye caught something amiss.  Errr... or was it?

There, in my baggage hall, was a fellow wearing Cadpat, collecting his luggage, after arriving from a flight.  His head looked sort of bare.  It didn't click until I saw him later, as he was exiting, that, yes, he had no headdress at all!

Did I miss something?  I was pretty certain that headdress was to be worn at all times in public areas.  Every other time I've seen CF members come through the airport in uniform, they've had their lids on.

I was going to jack him up, but then I realized that when I'm wearing blue, it's not really my place, and in any event I was busy with other duties at the time.


----------



## Franko (20 Jan 2007)

Unless he just got off the tarmac, his lid should have been covering his brain housing group.

Regards


----------



## portcullisguy (21 Jan 2007)

Cheers, that's what I thought.

On the subject of being out of uniform, I've seen some PRes troops in Toronto here out at the odd bar (and I mean it really was an odd bar, as in very Goth/Punk/Retro/Skater/Rock, my kinda bar) in their Cadpat, drinking up a storm and completely abusing the uniform.  I once saw a Cpl with his Cadpat shirt unbuttoned completely no t-shirt underneath, dancing around like an idiot, while his buddies (including a MCpl) watched indifferently.  I can only presume they thought this bar 

I was on PLQ at the time, at the bar on my own time in civvies, and took note of the unit, but elected not to say anything in the event that the troopies were feeling their liquid courage a little too much.  No use arguing with drunks, especially when you are outnumbered!


----------



## 241 (21 Jan 2007)

We had a similar incident at my unit, it was a pub not a bar and they we still dressed, but they none the less where not behaving in an appropriate manner for being in uniform and a MCpl from the Comms unit in town here saw this going on and put in a complaint now with the exception of Remembrance Day and I believe St. Barbs no one is authorized to wear there uniforms to the bars.


----------



## the 48th regulator (21 Jan 2007)

I have seen quite alot of it on the public transit lately.  I assumed that it was a new SOP, considering the amount of times I have seen it.

The first time I saw it I was unable to cross the crowd and approach the mope, after that I have seen it umpteen times so I just walk away and crank up the ipod.

dileas

tess


----------



## chrisf (21 Jan 2007)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I have seen quite alot of it on the public transit lately.  I assumed that it was a new SOP, considering the amount of times I have seen it.



As best I remember it (And no, I won't claim total responsibility, as I freely admit I'm regularly wrong, I will look it it up if asked) the lack of headress of public transit *is* authorised...

That being said, *I* personally, not knowing any better (Again, willing to look it up if asked) would only assume that headdress should be worn in public places, such as an airport... perhaps common sense and discretion should apply? I once had an officer point out to me that personal pride had not so much what to do with what you did when somone was watching but more to do with what you did when no one was watching (The actual comment was over socks with a DEU uniform and wasn't directed directly at me but the point stands). I'd think that it might be reasonable to remove one's beret while sitting and waiting near the terminal for ones flight or once on the air-craft, and advisable even to remove it if in a returant while enjoying a meal, but at all other times reasonable and advisable to wear it.


----------



## Meridian (21 Jan 2007)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> As best I remember it (And no, I won't claim total responsibility, as I freely admit I'm regularly wrong, I will look it it up if asked) the lack of headress of public transit *is* authorised...



Not that Ottawa is any good indication of what is proper, but my recollection seems to tell me that most officers on buses in the NCR don't wear headdress.

BUT, on the metro here in Montreal, normally I see pers wearing it...


----------



## beach_bum (21 Jan 2007)

I have never seen anything saying that you may remove headdress on public transit.  I have never removed mine on public transit (not that I take it often) and I would say something if I saw someone else without theirs on.  There is no reason it should be removed.  If your hat is so uncomfortable you can't take the bus with it on, I would suggest you visit stores and get one that fits.


----------



## career_radio-checker (21 Jan 2007)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> I have never seen anything saying that you may remove headdress on public transit.  I have never removed mine on public transit (not that I take it often) and I would say something if I saw someone else without theirs on.  There is no reason it should be removed.  If your hat is so uncomfortable you can't take the bus with it on, I would suggest you visit stores and get one that fits.



Or wear a tuque. No city has more CF members riding Public Transit than Ottawa and probably non more than the no. 8 bus as it runs from NDMC to NDHQ. Sometimes I have seen CF personnel riding without their headdress but I just assume they are coming from MIR and it is medically related. Sorry, I'm not about to ask a lt.-colonel for his chit... especially when he has a MWO with him.


----------



## NavComm (21 Jan 2007)

I'd be interested if someone would look this up. I've heard so many different opinions on whether or not you should wear your lid in your vehicle, on a bus, etc that I'd like the real goods on it.

Also: my mates and I were going to go for a quick pint at the Fleet club the other day after class. It wasn't open so we thought "what the heck, how about that bar up the street?" then the voice of some MS/MCpl rang in our ears and we wondered if we could actually go for a beer whilst in uniform. We decided we probably shouldn't, even if it isn't an offense, it just didn't seem right to do. We ended up foregoing the beer and having a timmie's instead. But I'd like to know..can you go for a beer after work/class in uniform?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (21 Jan 2007)

It is very simple - in public, wear your lid - unless you happen to be in a Church of course.


----------



## 241 (21 Jan 2007)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> Sorry, I'm not about to ask a lt.-colonel for his chit... especially when he has a MWO with him.



Oh come on, wheres your sense of adventure??     ;D


----------



## Bzzliteyr (21 Jan 2007)

Heck, I pointed out to the base commander in line at Timmie's that he had a huge thread hanging from his beret.  I thought of not saying anything but realized the way the forces are represented is everyone's responsibility.  What could he do, jack me up for pointing out a fault?  I'd like to see that charge!


----------



## navymich (21 Jan 2007)

From dress regs:



> 11. Public Transportation. Personel travelling
> aboard a local public conveyance may remove their
> headdress. Personnel travelling extended distances
> by aircraft, bus or rail, may remove their headdress
> ...


----------



## 284_226 (21 Jan 2007)

From A-AD-265-000/AG-001



> 10. *Non-Service Buildings*. Head-dress shall not normally be removed in any public place, including elevators. However, personnel may observe the custom practised by civilians in regard to the wearing of head-dress in non-service buildings such as restaurants, theatres and civil courts. When on duty under arms as an escort in a civil court, head-dress shall not be removed.
> 
> 11. *Public Transportation*. Head-dress shall be worn when travelling aboard local public conveyances. Personnel travelling extended distances by bus, rail or aircraft may remove their head-dress while in transit, however, it shall be replaced prior to leaving the vehicle or aircraft.
> 
> ...


----------



## George Wallace (21 Jan 2007)

OK.......Which of you has the more up to date version ?......

As Stated:

You would wear your Headdress when on a City Bus or in your car, both going to and returning from your place of employment.   You would be permitted to remove your headdress if you were travelling across Canada on Greyhound, Air Canada, Via Rail, SMP, etc. but not on a short distance trip to or from your daily work place. 

It appears that both these rules are being broken at many locations across Canada.


----------



## navymich (21 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> OK.......Which of you has the more up to date version ?......



Mine has *Ch/Mod 4 – 2005-03-16*


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (21 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> From A-AD-265-000/AG-001



The one that gets me is when people get out to pump gas and then go in to pay for it while not wearing headdress. I once asked a guy in Oromocto (at Gateway Esso) why he wasn't wearing his beret and he said "oh I just forgot it on the front seat of the car." I was pretty sure the Base Chief wouldn't have liked that answer much.
Here in Halifax I've seen guys who put their Gortex parka on to go out in civvies and neglect to take the rank slip ons off....that drives me absolutely bonkers!!
I usually encounter these guys at the Home Depot or Kents....they must slipped out to get a sheet of drywall or something and grabbed the first coat on the hook.....at least that was the excuse they gave me. :rage:


----------



## 284_226 (21 Jan 2007)

Hers is more up to date than mine....please delete my post.  I wonder when it changed?

I'd log into the DWAN now to check for the most recent version, but DVPNI appears to be having a nap.


----------



## Sig_Des (21 Jan 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Here in Halifax I've seen guys who put their Gortex parka on to go out in civvies and neglect to take the rank slip ons off....that drives me absolutely bonkers!!



Even without the slip-on, I hate seeing the gore-tex with civvies...Guess it may be easier to get away with if you have the black navy one.

As far as on buses, IE here in Ottawa, OC Transpo, I've always kept mine one, but I know that if it get really hot I can remove it.


----------



## medicineman (21 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You would be permitted to remove your headdress if you were travelling across Canada on Greyhound, Air Canada, Via Rail, SMP, etc. but not on a short distance trip to or from your daily work place.
> 
> It appears that both these rules are being broken at many locations across Canada.



People are under the impression that once they are in their PMV's, they are "in my own private property and therefore it doesn't matter" (direct quote from a Senior NCO I might add).  I've had little chats with people wandering around in shopping malls without their hats on as well - gets alot  annoying after awhile.  My guess is one of a couple of things.  First, it's pretty apparent that they're learning this either in Basic or secondly they're learning from some other's piss poor example.  If the former, shame shame; if the latter, quadruple shame and if you're the one setting the excample, go to the MIR and have some treatment for your CRIS (Cranio-Rectal Insertion Syndrome) before the BRSM decides to do it in lieu of.

Spleen smaller.

MM


----------



## George Wallace (21 Jan 2007)

The unfortunate thing is, many BRSM's don't do the "Discipline Thing" as much as they should, if at all.  This is the 'new Army'.   :-[


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (21 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The unfortunate thing is, many BRSM's don't do the "Discipline Thing" as much as they should, if at all.  This is the 'new Army'.   :-[



A lot of people got into not caring and not correcting when all this harrassement stuff came around. 
I had a staff member in my last posting who totally intimidated my predecessor. Every time he went to correct this individual they would threaten to put in a harrassement complaint. When I got there I said "Go ahead. I can do more paperwork than you can dream of and I know the system so bring it on!" 
Funny thing is they never did file a complaint, attitude got better and started complying with regs and directives. 
Good things happen when those who are mandated to lead actually step up and lead!


----------



## Trinity (21 Jan 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I hate seeing the gore-tex with civvies...Guess it may be easier to get away with if you have the black navy one.



That's exactly what I did.  I got a *surplus *navy gortex jacket.  It keeps me very toasty warm.


----------



## 284_226 (21 Jan 2007)

medicineman said:
			
		

> People are under the impression that once they are in their PMV's, they are "in my own private property and therefore it doesn't matter" (direct quote from a Senior NCO I might add).



But members are allowed to remove their headdress in a PMV if it interferes with the safe operation of the vehicle (or on order of the senior member present, which is me if I'm driving alone).  If you have a nice big Dodge Ram pickup truck with 12" of headroom clearance, that's great.  I'm 6'2", and if I wear my beret in my Grand Am, I'm hitting the roof of the car.  If I had to wear my wedge cap, I'd end up killing someone.   ;D


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (21 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> But members are allowed to remove their headdress in a PMV if it interferes with the safe operation of the vehicle (or on order of the senior member present, which is me if I'm driving alone).  If you have a nice big Dodge Ram pickup truck with 12" of headroom clearance, that's great.  I'm 6'2", and if I wear my beret in my Grand Am, I'm hitting the roof of the car.  If I had to wear my wedge cap, I'd end up killing someone.   ;D



My Navy peaked cap does not fit on my head when I'm driving my wifes' Corolla. 
Of course when I'm driving my "real man" pick up truck the sky's the limit...I could wear one of those Russian General's hats and there's still be lots of head room!  ;D


----------



## George Wallace (21 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> .....  If you have a nice big Dodge Ram pickup truck with 12" of headroom clearance, that's great.  I'm 6'2", and if I wear my beret in my Grand Am, I'm hitting the roof of the car.  If I had to wear my wedge cap, I'd end up killing someone.   ;D



Sounds like a personal problem to me. 


[Edit to add:]  I guess you don't drive it much when you wear a ballcap either.


----------



## The_Falcon (21 Jan 2007)

Trinity said:
			
		

> That's exactly what I did.  I got a *surplus *navy gortex jacket.  It keeps me very toasty warm.



Same here, I wear it all the time, even to MPA on parade nights.  Only one person has figured out its a military jacket, and I have had it for almost 3 years now.


----------



## medicineman (21 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> But members are allowed to remove their headdress in a PMV if it interferes with the safe operation of the vehicle (or on order of the senior member present, which is me if I'm driving alone).  If you have a nice big Dodge Ram pickup truck with 12" of headroom clearance, that's great.  I'm 6'2", and if I wear my beret in my Grand Am, I'm hitting the roof of the car.  If I had to wear my wedge cap, I'd end up killing someone.   ;D



Funny - I'm the same height and have never had a problem wearing my beret in any car or truck I've driven - perhaps you need a haircut? >

MM


----------



## the 48th regulator (21 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> But members are allowed to remove their headdress in a PMV if it interferes with the safe operation of the vehicle (or on order of the senior member present, which is me if I'm driving alone).  If you have a nice big Dodge Ram pickup truck with 12" of headroom clearance, that's great.  I'm 6'2", and if I wear my beret in my Grand Am, I'm hitting the roof of the car.  If I had to wear my wedge cap, I'd end up killing someone.   ;D



Geez,

Are we now talking about feather bonnets?







dileas

tess


----------



## NCRCrow (21 Jan 2007)

I saw two OCDTS on Head St in Uniform holding hands. I was at Domino's picking up supper and quickly ran out and jacked them up hard!!!

Halifax has lots of dress anomalies.......some so unreal I cannot believe it

Joe Comeaus aka North End Pub always had tars playing VLTS in uniform, that disgusts me!


----------



## TN2IC (21 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> ~Halifax has lots of dress anomalies.......some so unreal I cannot believe it
> 
> ~that disgusts me!



I can agree to this....


----------



## 284_226 (21 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sounds like a personal problem to me.



It's not a personal problem when the beret rubs on the fabric of the roof of the car.  Off goes the beret.



> [Edit to add:]  I guess you don't drive it much when you wear a ballcap either.



I don't wear one.


----------



## medicineman (21 Jan 2007)

Again, if you cut your hair, the beret will amazingly fit well on your head AND in the car...

MM


----------



## 284_226 (21 Jan 2007)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Funny - I'm the same height and have never had a problem wearing my beret in any car or truck I've driven - perhaps you need a haircut? >
> 
> MM



I have a #1 blade all around.  You actually think going chromedome will make a difference?   ;D


----------



## NCRCrow (21 Jan 2007)

I once did a favour for my COXN in Ottawa by saying I would go to the Navy League Inpection (Parade) at XXXX Lake. 

I arrived at the drill shed and promptly saluted a male 4 ringer who introduced himself as the rank he was wearing without any cavaet.

Being a parade I must have saluted him 373 times throughout the day. I was talking to him after the parade and he tells me he is a CPL comms type at XXXX.

My jaw hit the floor! Is this right or legal.


----------



## 284_226 (21 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I once did a favour for my COXN in Ottawa by saying I would go to the Navy League Inpection (Parade) at XXXX Lake.
> 
> I arrived at the drill shed and promptly saluted a male 4 ringer who introduced himself as the rank he was wearing without any cavaet.
> 
> ...



Navy League officers are not CIC officers, and as such do not have Queen's Commissions.  They don't *require* a salute, but in the interest of leading by example for the cadets who are 10-13, it was probably the right thing to do - much like saluting civilian ladies as a mark of respect.  He probably should've given you a heads up about it.

Bet you can recognize a Navy League officer at twenty paces now, though


----------



## armyvern (21 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I have a #1 blade all around.  You actually think going chromedome will make a difference?   ;D



Something tells me that alone in the LCF car, a baseball cap magicly has no problem finding it's way onto your head though (backwards of course).


----------



## 284_226 (21 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Something tells me that alone in the LCF car, a baseball cap magicly has no problem finding it's way onto your head though (backwards of course).





			
				284_226 said:
			
		

> I don't wear one.



I'm 40 years old.  I stopped trying to look cool decades ago, in favour of comfort, horsepower, and 4 doors to make it easier to add/remove rugrats.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I'm 40 years old.  I stopped trying to look cool decades ago, in favour of comfort, horsepower, and 4 doors to make it easier to add/remove rugrats.



You'd think that after 40 years you would have learned to pick out a car with more than a 1/2 inch of headroom. If your beret gets in the way, you're to close to the headliner. Must be a real treat to watch you take speed bumps. :. Knock it off, you're just making excuses.


----------



## medicineman (22 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I have a #1 blade all around.  You actually think going chromedome will make a difference?   ;D



Either you didn't pick your car very well, can't adjust the seat or your beret doesn't fit because there is still too much there.  I'm almost 6'3", and if I can fit in an LSVW with my helmet on, you should be able to fit in a Grand Am with a beret - especially since the beret has give to it, the melon protector dosen't.  Just an observation.

MM


----------



## zipperhead_cop (22 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I'm 6'2", and if I wear my beret in my Grand Am, I'm hitting the roof of the car.  If I had to wear my wedge cap, I'd end up killing someone.   ;D



Okay.  So here is the stated headroom for a 2004 Grand Am:
Internal dimensions: front headroom (inches): 38.3, rear headroom (inches): 37.2, front hip room (inches): 52.4, rear hip room (inches): 49.3, front leg room (inches): 42.1, rear leg room (inches): 35.5, front shoulder room (inches): 53.7, rear shoulder room (inches): 55 and interior volume (cu ft): 92.2
http://www.automotive.com/2004/12/pontiac/grand-am/specifications/index.html

As you indicate that you are 6'2", that ends up being 74".  74" minus 38.3" = 35.7"
So you are telling us that your seated height is greater than 39", and that the outseam of your pants in in the neighborhood of 34"?  
Perhaps a career in the circus would have proved more lucrative, with greater choices in headwear?


----------



## Sub_Guy (22 Jan 2007)

I don't wear my beret in my vehicle, just like I don't wear it when I enter/leave it while it is parked in my yard. 

I don't wear my beret when I am taking out the trash either

I once shoveled my entire driveway while wearing no beret

I don't wear my ball cap while I drive either.

I am willing to bet most of the CF drives without their headdress on.... What has the world come to?

Find a new pet peeve.


----------



## armyvern (22 Jan 2007)

Sub_Guy said:
			
		

> I don't wear my beret in my vehicle, just like I don't wear it when I enter/leave it while it is parked in my yard.
> 
> I don't wear my beret when I am taking out the trash either
> 
> ...



Pet Peeve?? Read the Dress Regs. Fine example you're setting. It's more like: "What are the CFs '_leaders_' coming to?"


----------



## Sub_Guy (22 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Pet Peeve?? Read the Dress Regs. Fine example you're setting. It's more like: "What are the CFs '_leaders_' coming to?"



I guess I am a sad example for others follow!  Excuse me for not being properly turned out when I take out the trash.  I have read the dress regs, but jumping all over someone because they are not wearing headdress while driving is just silly.  All you would get from me is a wave, a smile and if you are lucky I might blow a kiss.  

Outside of my car and my house (property) I am properly turned out.  My kids don't know the dress regs, and my neighbours could give two shits (no military on my street).


----------



## armyvern (22 Jan 2007)

Sub_Guy said:
			
		

> I guess I am a sad example for others follow!  Excuse me for not being properly turned out when I take out the trash.  I have read the dress regs, but jumping all over someone because they are not wearing headdress while driving is just silly.  All you would get from me is a wave, a smile and if you are lucky I might blow a kiss.
> 
> Outside of my car and my house (property) I am properly turned out.  My kids don't know the dress regs, and my neighbours could give two shits (no military on my street).



24/7...you don't wear it to/from your car either remember? Dress Regs are there for a reason. When in uniform, in view of the public (ohh that'd be those civvie neighbours of yours), that includes your driveway by the way, head-dress shall be worn.

You'd get more than a wave and a kiss back from me I'm afraid. I'd charge your ass.


----------



## Trooper Hale (22 Jan 2007)

Down here as soon as you get into a car the head dress comes off. Its what we're taught. Why wear a beret or slouch hat while your sitting inside your car? Before  you de-bus then whack it on but not inside. I'd have thought most folks would follow that idea and from what i saw in Canada most did.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Jan 2007)

Sub_Guy said:
			
		

> I guess I am a sad example for others follow!  Excuse me for not being properly turned out when I take out the trash.  I have read the dress regs, but jumping all over someone because they are not wearing headdress while driving is just silly.  All you would get from me is a wave, a smile and if you are lucky I might blow a kiss.
> 
> Outside of my car and my house (property) I am properly turned out.  My kids don't know the dress regs, and my neighbours could give two shits (no military on my street).



It wasn't the fact that he wasn't following dress regs that got him jumped on. It was all the wishy washy bs excuses he was using to justify not wearing it. Read the entire thread next time, before commenting.

As far as your little rant, if your going to fall on your sword and be the contrary martyr, I'd find a better reason 

This one's locked. It's gone on way to long and far outlived it's usefullness.


----------



## Franko (24 Jan 2007)

Due to popular demand......thread re-opened.

Regards


----------



## vonGarvin (24 Jan 2007)

"Hmm...I think I'll join that outfit, but I don't like their rules, so I'll make my own, and bitch like crazy when I get criticised for such behaviour"
PUT ON YER FRIGGIN HAT: IT AIN'T NO RIGHT TO WEAR IT, IT'S A PRIVELAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And being a privelage, you have to EARN it.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (24 Jan 2007)

This should be a short one.  Stand by for tantrum inspired bluster... :


----------



## the 48th regulator (24 Jan 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> This should be a short one.  Stand by for tantrum inspired bluster... :



Why was it because of my feather bonnet picture?

dileas

tess


----------



## zipperhead_cop (24 Jan 2007)

"Stupid low headroom car!"


----------



## career_radio-checker (24 Jan 2007)

Yeesh. I got flashbacks to pictures of Cher *shutter*


----------



## 284_226 (24 Jan 2007)

Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> "Hmm...I think I'll join that outfit, but I don't like their rules, so I'll make my own



Sorry for the delay, took a little while to download the latest CFP 265 off the DWAN.



> A-AD-265-000/AG-001
> CANADIAN FORCES DRESS INSTRUCTIONS
> *Issued on Authority of the Chief of the Defence Staff*
> Ch/Mod 4 – 2005-03-16
> ...



For those who can't grasp the above, I'll remove the extraneous information to make it a little clearer.



> Members wearing the uniform shall wear appropriate headdress while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicle *except in a staff car, PMV or bus.*



I'm not the CDS, and I think I'd have remembered if someone asked for my input into CFP 265, so how does that make the above _my rules?_

Now who wants to be the first to tell me I lack in personal pride, professionalism, etc.?   :


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Jan 2007)

:rofl:

Still doesn't explain why your beret is the biggest in NATO


----------



## 284_226 (24 Jan 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> Still doesn't explain why your beret is the biggest in NATO



Loosely translated, that would be: "Oh $%&@!  He's right.  Quick!  Change the topic!"   ;D


----------



## Synthos (24 Jan 2007)

I can piss far too.
.
.
.


----------



## Michael OLeary (24 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Now who wants to be the first to tell me I lack in personal pride, professionalism, etc.?   :



For what, your inability to not get back in front of this train wreck of a thread?     :


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Loosely translated, that would be: "Oh $%&@!  He's right.  Quick!  Change the topic!"   ;D



Wrong dictionary. Your head seems to big. BTW, shelve the second account, right now, or you'll be banned for contravention of the rules. Oh yeah, we're not that slow, and you aren't that good.


----------



## armyvern (24 Jan 2007)

Can you send me the link where I can download the Dress Regs from the DWAN while at home? I could use it. Thanks!!


----------



## 284_226 (24 Jan 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> For what, your inability to not get back in front of this train wreck of a thread?     :



Ah, so I see people express the opinion that those not wearing their headdress in their PMVs are bags of ****, take the time to clarify what the actual regulation says, and receive heaps of flak telling me that I'm wrong.  

As it turns out, not only do you not have to wear your headdress in a PMV if it interferes with comfort or safety - *but you don't have to wear it in your PMV at all*, except when entering or leaving the establishment.

And I'm at fault here.   :rofl:


----------



## George Wallace (24 Jan 2007)

Excuses. Excuses.  Excuses.



> Members wearing the uniform shall wear appropriate headdress while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicle except in a staff car, PMV or bus.



This is a contradictory statement.  First it states that ALL members while in uniform while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicles will wear appropriate headdress.  Then it makes the exception of Staff Cars (a military vehicle).  A PMV is not a military vehicle, so why is it in this statement.  A bus could be military, and it could also not be.   Not at all a well written statement.

I can concede the following, but it seems some are using its poor wording for their own means:



> 12. Military and Privately Owned Motor Vehicles (PMV)
> 
> a. Members wearing the uniform shall wear appropriate headdress while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicle except:
> 
> ...



and I wonder what kind of idiot buys a PMV in which the roof of the vehicle is too low.  No one I know who has any driving experience on rough roads would think of buying a vehicle where their head was subject to contact with the roof while driving in any or all conditions.  I am not talking about wearing a beret that is less than 1/4 inch of felt here, just plain ole common sense.       (I know, LCF.) 

I dismiss you, 284_226 as a self-centered person who is prone to excuses.  If you want to publish you contact numbers that you talk about, please do.  Someone may want to chat.  As for me, I look down on people, who want to bend the Regs to their own satisfaction, in disgust.  Sorry if I hurt your feelings when I say I have had enough of your crap.  

I see he just did the ole 'Post N Run'.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out and all.


----------



## 284_226 (24 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Can you send me the link where I can download the Dress Regs from the DWAN while at home? I could use it. Thanks!!



You can't access them via the web.  You'd need a Baselined laptop with DVPNI.


----------



## George Wallace (24 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Ah, so I see people express the opinion that those not wearing their headdress in their PMVs are bags of ****, take the time to clarify what the actual regulation says, and receive heaps of flak telling me that I'm wrong.
> 
> As it turns out, not only do you not have to wear your headdress in a PMV if it interferes with comfort or safety - *but you don't have to wear it in your PMV at all*, except when entering or leaving the establishment.
> 
> And I'm at fault here.   :rofl:



As I said:  Excuses.  Excuses.  Excuses.


----------



## George Wallace (24 Jan 2007)

Following you logic, and looking at your posts, one doesn't have to wear headdress at any time while in any vehicle.

WRONG!


----------



## 284_226 (24 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is a contradictory statement.  First it states that ALL members while in uniform while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicles will wear appropriate headdress.  Then it makes the exception of Staff Cars (a military vehicle).  A PMV is not a military vehicle, so why is it in this statement.  A bus could be military, and it could also not be.   Not at all a well written statement.



It could be written better, but it's not that unclear actually.  Headdress has to be worn in any military vehicle, like crew cabs, panel vans, etc.  It then lists the exceptions like staff cars, PMVs and buses.



> I dismiss you, 284_226 as a self-centered person who is prone to excuses.  If you want to publish you contact numbers that you talk about, please do.  Someone may want to chat.  As for me, I look down on people, who want to bend the Regs to their own satisfaction, in disgust.  Sorry if I hurt your feelings when I say I have had enough of your crap.



There were no bending of the rules, and you're entitled to your opinion.  In this case, your opinion just happened to be incorrect.  I'm not going to apologize for that.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Jan 2007)

You got about thirty seconds to come clean on your second account (conrtary to the guidelines). tic..........toc..... Forum 5-0


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## 284_226 (24 Jan 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You got about thirty seconds to come clean on your second account (conrtary to the guidelines). tic..........toc..... Forum 5-0



Mind telling me what you're referring to?


----------



## George Wallace (24 Jan 2007)

Sorry.  You are very wrong.

Having driven a Staff Car, I followed the Rules in the very first line.  I wore my Beret at all times.  

Seldom did the General tell me to take it off, and that was usually for those very long trips (2) in accordance with sub note (3).

You are reading all those points out of context.  As I have previously stated, according to your faulty logic with point (4), and taking all those other points, you have it so that one does not have to wear headdress in any vehicle, military or civilian.  You are WRONG.


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## 284_226 (24 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sorry.  You are very wrong.
> 
> Having driven a Staff Car, I followed the Rules in the very first line.  I wore my Beret at all times.
> 
> ...



Listen, I posted the quote verbatim from the CFP 265.  Interpret it however you like.  It's obvious that nothing I say from here on in is going to sway you, so that's enough for me.  Should it turn out that I was right about the interpretation, remember...you heard it here first.

Later...


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## armyvern (24 Jan 2007)

Well I do know the RSMs interpretation here and in Gagetown, and he'd best not ever catch me driving my car without the beret on, especially on Base. It just would not be good.

I've already done enough extras in my career for things like not wearing my head-dress; I don't need any more.


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Mind telling me what you're referring to?



Sorry, my mistake (at least one of us can admit to it), When you logged off as 284_226, and logged back in as Guest, anonomously, to read the thread, you were still logged. It's not technically difficult.......but you knew that, right? At first it looked like a second account. Hazards of using your fancy dancy computer, I guess. While not really illegal, according to the guidelines, it is rather petty and childish............but not suprising.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (24 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Now who wants to be the first to tell me I lack in personal pride, professionalism, etc.?   :



You lack consistant train of thought.  You didn't know that rule until you downloaded it and found it by accident.  You have been arguing necessity for the whole time, and the reason you got plowed was because of your beyond-stupid claim of lack of headspace due to seating constraints.  If you had known (or thought you were reading it right) you would have trotted that out long ago.  
And ultimately, regardless of what the reg says, if your RSM or CO says "Do it", you will.  End of story.


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## aesop081 (24 Jan 2007)

Locked..until every ones takes a few hours of to breath.....


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## TheBeatles193 (15 Oct 2011)

Hi guys,

Im a new reservist, and have no other means of getting to the drill hall other than public transit. Though we were never given specific instructions, a few of my friends have told me that there are certain things you aren't allowed doing if your in public with your uniform on. Like, she said texting, listening to music, etc. Are these actual rules? Or more of suggestions? Also, are there any other things we are/aren't supposed to do? This question might seem ridiculous, but I've got an hour long commute, and usually listen to music and what not.  

Thanks.


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## Snaketnk (15 Oct 2011)

The main thing to keep in mind is that when you're out in public, the public see you as a representative of the CF, so whatever you do keep that in mind. I've never seen anything above unit standing orders cited for policies on listening to music/cell phone use/etc so if you don't find anything in the CF-wide rules keep an eye out for things specific to your unit. I've seen policies about proper ways to carry a coffee while walking...

Personally I would avoid those things and take a nice book with me. That's putting forward a good image I think.


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## Navalsnpr (15 Oct 2011)

The Base CWO is the dress authority for your base and the best thing to do is to ask your CoC or call the Base CWO assistant (usually a Sgt/MCpl). They will be able to provide you the clarification/direction you are seeking.


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## Occam (15 Oct 2011)

Or, you could always refer to the appropriate section of the CF Dress Manual:

DEPORTMENT

1. Responsibilities. Pursuant to QR&O 17.02,
the deportment and appearance of all ranks, in
uniform or when wearing civilian attire, shall on all
occasions reflect credit on the CF and the individual.
It is the responsibility and duty of all officers, warrant
officers and non-commissioned officers to ensure
that, by their vigilance, actions and example, the
policies, regulations and instructions contained
herein are adhered to by all ranks.

2. Behaviour. Personnel in uniform shall
comport themselves in a manner which projects a
positive military appearance. Behaviour such as
chewing gum, slouching, placing hands in pockets,
smoking or eating on the street and walking hand in
hand, is forbidden. This instruction’s objective is to
project an image of a disciplined and self-controlled
force.

3. Military Presence. Personnel in uniform
shall be well groomed, with footwear cleaned and
shone, and uniform cleaned and properly pressed. In
particular, buttons, fasteners and zippers shall be
kept closed; pockets shall not be bulged; items such
as glasses, glass cases, sun-glasses, pens, pencils,
key rings or paper shall not be visibly extended nor
protrude from pockets or be suspended from waist
belts or pockets; nor shall commercial headsets from
either a radio receiver or tape/CD player or a nonissued
cellular phone be worn, except where required
in the performance of a military duty. CF personnel
wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in
military groups or settings shall dress and comport
themselves at all times as befits members of a
disciplined, cohesive force.


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## gcclarke (15 Oct 2011)

I would not consider texting while on the bus to be an issue. Doing so while walking would definitely be. That having been said, might I suggest a book. It's like a text message, but on paper, and longer.


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## Occam (15 Oct 2011)

Nothing wrong with hammering away on a BlackBerry while in uniform on the bus.  I see dozens of pers (mostly officers) doing it every day.  The CFCWO, who is on the same bus as me almost every day, seems to prefer a good book.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Oct 2011)

Actually any male seen texting in public should be beaten by the men in the Wiser commercial..................


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Oct 2011)

Check your emails, respond if required. "I'm passing Danforth and the dude next to me smells like a mule" is not a requirement. Keep the earbuds or headphones off, they are not part of the uniform.


----------



## Strike (16 Oct 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Check your emails, respond if required. "I'm passing Danforth and the dude next to me smells like a mule" is not a requirement. Keep the earbuds or headphones off, they are not part of the uniform.



I know a certain LCol who does just that on his FB while riding to and from work.  It's quite entertaining.  Kind of a 'letters to the bus driver' type series.

Seriously though, if you're sitting and doing any type of waiting, text, surf, talk on the phone, whatever.  Don't go throwing earbuds in and, if you're going to chat on the phone, watch the language.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Oct 2011)

Oh, and if your going to respond on Facebook or whatever, don't just post, reiterating what someone just said, just because you think you need to clarify the exact same point as the person ahead of you. Even though everyone knew what the original person was talking about. Might be hard on the thumbs for no reason.


----------



## Gunner98 (16 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Or, you could always refer to the appropriate section of the CF Dress Manual:
> 
> DEPORTMENT
> 
> ...



It even looks silly when a LGen does it while saluting his troops. http://www.comfec-cefcom.forces.gc.ca/pa-ap/fs-ev/2011/09/02-eng.asp


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Oct 2011)

Simpler solution:  Wear civvies and change into uniform when you get there.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2011)

As a new reservist you may not be too worried about violating "dress regulations" or public image and stuff like that.

So look at it like this.

In uniform you are under constant observation, both from civilians, serving military and ex military.  It is not uncommon for you to be in uniform chewing gum while you're waiting for the bus and 3 days later someone in your chain of command is giving you a blast of crap because someone who used to be int he army 20 years ago saw you chewing gum recognized the hat you re wearing and called in the complaint to your unit. I'm not kidding people go way out of their way to make complaints, sometimes it's deserved and sometimes it's cause they're dicks.  

As a new guy your best option is to not put yourself in a position to have someone call and complain about you.  No earphones, texting, hands in your pockets, standing like you don't have a backbone, spitting etc..
Lots of great advice in this thread already, listen to it.  The best in my opinion is probably bringing your uniform and changing when you get there.

I know new guys love showing off that they are in the military, they are proud to be in the Canadian forces (rightly so) and want people to know it.  Wearing your uniform sometimes just puts you in a position to have to deal with idiots in public who are bored and feel like bitching about whatever. They see uniform and to them it's an open invitation to talk about the Canadian soldiers dying in Iraq for president bush and his oil and to cover up 9/11.
Save bragging about being in the CF for facebook where you can post updates about the quality of the free food you're given, volunteering to work then complaining about such violations of human rights like fire picket and kitchen duty or that you have to work at night sometimes 

On the same note other stupid things include;
Wearing your dogtags outside of your shirt (in uniform or out)
Talking about what you do at work in public, loudly, on purpose so people around you hear thinking they will be impressed. (Talking about storming a trench shooting someone with blanks may sound wild, but it's not)
using military ID as ID to buy alcohol, get into bars, show girls etc..


----------



## Pusser (16 Oct 2011)

3. Military Presence. Personnel in uniform
shall be well groomed, with footwear cleaned and
shone, and uniform cleaned and properly pressed. In
particular, buttons, fasteners and zippers shall be
kept closed; pockets shall not be bulged; items such
as glasses, glass cases, sun-glasses, pens, pencils,
key rings or paper shall not be visibly extended nor
protrude from pockets or be suspended from waist
belts or pockets; *nor shall commercial headsets from
either a radio receiver or tape/CD player or a nonissued
cellular phone be worn, *except where required
in the performance of a military duty. CF personnel
wearing civilian clothes on military installations and in
military groups or settings shall dress and comport
themselves at all times as befits members of a
disciplined, cohesive force.

Notwithstanding that this is what the Dress Manual says, we have to keep in mind that some things move faster than we can develop and publish new regulations.  It is my belief that this particular regulation was intended to prevent personnel from walking down the street with headsets on, not to prevent folks from enjoying various forms of entertainment during a long commute.  To take this literally, as written, would mean that CF personnel could never watch an in-flight movie on an airplane, if they were in uniform.  Surely that is not the intent of this regulation?  If that is the case, how is a long bus or subway commute any different?  How is listening to music with earbuds any different from reading a book or working on a computer?  I travel on public transit in uniform on a regular basis.  I often sit down, remove my hat and listen to music on my iPhone.  Before I reach my stop, I put away the iPhone, put on my hat and carry on.  I don't wear earbuds while walking down the street.  No big deal and it hardly reflects discredit on the CF.  Walking down a public street in downtown Toronto while urinating in uniform (I've seen this) reflects discredit on the CF. Wearing earbuds while sitting on a bus?  Not so much.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (17 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Nothing wrong with hammering away on a BlackBerry while in uniform on the bus.  I see dozens of pers (mostly officers) doing it every day.  The CFCWO, who is on the same bus as me almost every day, seems to prefer a good book.



As an officer, I have always taken my cue from Chiefs and Warrant officers whenever unsure as to dress or deportment. None of them has ever steered me wrong.


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## dapaterson (17 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Nothing wrong with hammering away on a BlackBerry while in uniform on the bus.  I see dozens of pers (mostly officers) doing it every day.  The CFCWO, who is on the same bus as me almost every day, seems to prefer a good book.



Odd, given that there is no CFCWO right now.

The CFCPO, on the other hand...


(Yes, I know the position is still labelled as CFCWO, but we should always try to avoid Senior Service Snits)


----------



## Occam (17 Oct 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Odd, given that there is no CFCWO right now.
> 
> The CFCPO, on the other hand...
> 
> ...



Yes, I actually checked that very page before posting that, as I wasn't sure of the validity of the acronym CFCPO - and I can't find anything that says CFCPO is acceptable.  I don't think you'd hear any grief from him by calling him the CFCWO.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Or, you could always refer to the appropriate section of the CF Dress Manual:
> 
> DEPORTMENT
> .
> ...



I think Tim Horton's and Starbucks changed that. Its very common to see CF personell with a Tim's or Starbucks in hand  on the street in uniform.


----------



## Haggis (17 Oct 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I think Tim Horton's and Starbucks changed that. Its very common to see CF personell with a Tim's or Starbucks in hand  on the street in uniform.



I don't recognize the authority of either corporation to change the Dress Regulations.



			
				Occam said:
			
		

> I don't think you'd hear any grief from him by calling him the CFCWO.



I can guarantee it.  His position is CF CWO, commonly referred to generically as "the CF Chief".  His rank is CPO1.


----------



## Redeye (17 Oct 2011)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I don't recognize the authority of either corporation to change the Dress Regulations.



It's not that they can change them - but it seems that there's a consensus not to enforce those rules particularly. I don't think anyone sees a particular issue with someone in uniform drinking a coffee as they commute, as just about everyone else does. Nor listening to an iPod on public transit. You can do those things and still look professional - I guess that's the guideline that informs the discretion in enforcement of those regulations.


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## NavalMoose (17 Oct 2011)

You would think that listening to an ipod in uniform on the bus would be limited to the younger crowd who seem to need to be constantly stimulated but there is a full Colonel I sometimes see with his on and it just looks wrong. He often has his jacket open while wearing it as well.  It is against regulations and that should be it.  I wear civvies to and from work myself...just my tuppence worth.


----------



## hugh19 (17 Oct 2011)

Moose have you talked to said Colonel and reminded him he is in public?


----------



## Silverfire (17 Oct 2011)

sledge said:
			
		

> Moose have you talked to said Colonel and reminded him he is in public?



Just devil's advocate here, but wouldn't you look like a touch of an ass if; as a MCpl you tried to dress down a Col?


----------



## hugh19 (17 Oct 2011)

Never did your JLC/PLQ yet eh? The answer is everyone is responsible for dress. So you POLITELY point out the problem to said Colonel. If that doesnt work I have found going to your Senior NCO. For me usually the ships coxswain with thier name and let them deal with them.


----------



## aesop081 (17 Oct 2011)

Silverfire said:
			
		

> Just devil's advocate here, but wouldn't you look like a touch of an *** if; as a MCpl you tried to dress down a Col?



Its not an issue. I have done it routinely with high ranking officers, including one General. There is no need for a "dressing down", just a polite reminder of what the rules are is usually quite enough.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2011)

A cpl correcting a colonels dress and deportment on the bus is like a new poster correcting an old dogs spelling or grammar here  

Sure in theory it works but in practice the 'Thanks Corporal you're right" turns in to "yes, Corporal. _You're right._ Say, whats the name of your CO I'd like to pass your name on to him with my praise".

don't get me wrong sometimes it works and the higher rank is quite thankful but you really gotta watch the delivery.


I noticed a key phrase in the regs, "non-issued headphones" were not to be used- as if the public can tell the difference between Ipod headphones and cheap CF issue ones?

One bonus of headphones is that it adds a very small layer of standoff between the CF soldier and the commuter who wants to start a political debate.

Maybe I'm biased though, I've gotten a talkin to for speaking on the phone while driving (someone called a complaint to my unit because they saw someone "in uniform" talking on the phone on the same day I had a vehicle signed out, even though there's hundreds of airforce guys in cadpat working up the road- and no it wasn't me) from someone who eats and drives in uniform  ;D


----------



## Brasidas (17 Oct 2011)

sledge said:
			
		

> Never did your JLC/PLQ yet eh? The answer is everyone is responsible for dress. So you POLITELY point out the problem to said Colonel. If that doesnt work I have found going to your Senior NCO. For me usually the ships coxswain with thier name and let them deal with them.



Before and after PLQ, I've found it to be a hell of a lot less grief to not talk to said Colonel. If its an individual who's neither a part of my unit nor one that I regularly encounter, I let it be. His own peers and subordinates have ample opportunity to aid his personal development, as opposed to someone who's in the same room for five minutes with questionable privacy.

If it is someone under my umbrella, then I'd pass the info on to a senior NCO in my CoC for them to either quietly nudge the person about it or have someone more appropriate do so.

A corporal may directly, respectfully point out a problem, and he can't directly be criticized for doing so, but I'd hope he'd know the personality of the person he criticizes first, for his own sake.


----------



## NavalMoose (17 Oct 2011)

I didn't want to correct the Colonel on a bus where everyone would hear, it would be a bit humiliating for him and to be frank, me too. I remember years ago in Halifax when I was in the navy, an officer ordered me to go and tell a Master Seaman that he wasn't carrying his backpack correctly as he was going into the dockyard. I said to the officer that the  MS won't listen to me, but he took my details down and told me to do it. I ran up to the Master Seaman and politely informed him that he was not carrying his backpack correctly and promptly got told to f$%# off....what a surprise.  Once bitten, twice shy, and to be honest, these days, f$%#em, look like a twit all you want.


----------



## Lowlander (17 Oct 2011)

Is there any specific regulation about wearing or not wearing headress inside a mall?


----------



## cupper (17 Oct 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I think Tim Horton's and Starbucks changed that. Its very common to see CF personell with a Tim's or Starbucks in hand  on the street in uniform.



It only says "eating" nothing about drinking.  ;D


----------



## Occam (17 Oct 2011)

Lowlander said:
			
		

> Is there any specific regulation about wearing or not wearing headress inside a mall?



Did you check the CF Dress Instructions?  Your answer is there....under "headdress", even.


----------



## PJGary (20 Oct 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Did you check the CF Dress Instructions?  Your answer is there....under "headdress", even.



Aaaand, because I'm bored and was curious...  ;D

"10. Non-Service Buildings. Headdress shall
not normally be removed in any public place,
including elevators. However, personnel may
observe the custom practised by civilians in regard
to the wearing of headdress in non-service
buildings such as restaurants, theatres and civil
courts. When on duty under arms as an escort in a
civil court, headdress shall not be removed."

So the answer, you should wear it. In practice (I'm assuming you mean when you go on lunchbreak etc...) we usually ditch the beret once we get into the food line. I have gotten to a point where I try to avoid wearing the uniform in public, nothing like trying to buy milk and bread on your way home after a long day and having someone in safeway try to tell you all of his political opinions. Yes sir, no blood for oil, may I go buy my cheerios now?


----------



## FlyingDutchman (20 Oct 2011)

At least your uniform doesn't make you look like you work there.


----------



## fraserdw (26 Oct 2012)

I am starting this thread because I am sitting in the TO airport and I am amazed at the personalized display of the uniform.  There are few Field Grade officers here wandering around and getting on flights for Hamilton, London, etc.  No berets, rain jackets opened down the front, one without bloused pants.  I have spoken to one but simply got a glassed over eye look and the how are you to speak to me.  They really look like slobs.  The best one is the female signals Major with open raincoat and her beret rolled up and threaded through the front rank.  A logistic officer, (can't see the rank) playing with his iPhone as he walks (into people sometimes).  Some Area RSM in LFCA really needs to teach the officers how to act in public!  I travel in combat when a meeting closes very close to my flights but I make sure that the beret is on when I move around and the coat is off and over my arm.


----------



## brihard (26 Oct 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I am starting this thread because I am sitting in the TO airport and I am amazed at the personalized display of the uniform.  There are few Field Grade officers here wandering around and getting on flights for Hamilton, London, etc.  No berets, rain jackets opened down the front, one without bloused pants.  I have spoken to one but simply got a glassed over eye look and the how are you to speak to me.  They really look like slobs.  The best one is the female signals Major with open raincoat and her beret rolled up and threaded through the front rank.  A logistic officer, (can't see the rank) playing with his iPhone as he walks (into people sometimes).  Some Area RSM in LFCA really needs to teach the officers how to act in public!  I travel in combat when a meeting closes very close to my flights but I make sure that the beret is on when I move around and the coat is off and over my arm.



I came out of Montfort a few weeks back after some dental surgery. There was a signlas major standing at the bus shelter with neon green earbuds in listening to his iPod. I made sure he made eye contact, and then crisply saluted him. Best awkward high-five return I've gotten yet. He didn't take them out.


----------



## Gunplumber (26 Oct 2012)

The amount of Officers I see in shopping centres and Home Depot etc who seem to think they dont have to wear headdress is amazing!


----------



## JorgSlice (26 Oct 2012)

I saw a local Corporal on the train last week wearing FFO while I could see the beret sticking out of their left leg side pocket. If I'm not mistaken, the beret is supposed to come off on the Proletariat Chariot and don something like a toque or remain bear-headed until egress from the vehicle has been made, correct? He was standing at the platform wearing the helmet as well as on the train. Kosher?


----------



## Pat in Halifax (26 Oct 2012)

Say something to them! IAW Dress Instructions, headdress is to be worn indoors except for eating establishments, NO personal ear buds/headphones, etc, etc, etc. There are tactful ways to do it and sometimes it is needed. I've done it quietly and I've done it (if the individual attempts to argue with me) in a more boisterous manner. Sadly, I have to admit, I had an MWO 'correct' me once at the airport in Ottawa too when I should have known better. I now purposely travel when it's work related in uniform. 
I recall one Friday afternoon when I was in Ottawa recently walking from work  by Ottawa City Hall and there was a LCdr staggerring across the 'mall' in front. I was in shorts and tee but ran over, steered him in behind Cartier Square and got him into a cab. He yelled a lot of profanities my way but neglected to realize he was IN UNIFORM WITH A NAME TAG on! On Monday morning, I looked him up in OUTLOOK and sent him an email to see if he made it home okay...I never heard back from him!!!


----------



## fraserdw (26 Oct 2012)

Pat 

I think I would have written a report on Monday on the LCdr.  That one is very much a concern.  When I lived in Qs in Gagetown, my Q was on a short cut from the Sgt's Mess to the Q patch.  I looked out my living room to see the little wee wee of a drunken LDSH WO having a pee on my window sill.  I cornered him, drove him home and filed a report with my unit RSM.  He did alot of duties...... and took a dry out course.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (27 Oct 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Pat
> 
> I think I would have written a report on Monday on the LCdr.  That one is very much a concern.  When I lived in Qs in Gagetown, my Q was on a short cut from the Sgt's Mess to the Q patch.  I looked out my living room to see the little wee wee of a drunken LDSH WO having a pee on my window sill.  I cornered him, drove him home and filed a report with my unit RSM.  He did alot of duties...... and took a dry out course.


Fair enough, your call...and mine. I believe we all f*** up at times and deserve one kick at the cat ... on these types of things. It was nasty out (though summer) and I suspect a handful of people would have noticed him. Someday, we will cross paths again I am sure-The Navy community is 'smaller' than you may think.


----------



## NavalMoose (27 Oct 2012)

Here in Ottawa where there are so many officers it is commonplace to see the bag over the shoulder, the glazed eyes on the cellphone, the headphones in or the open jacket on the bus.  I don't usually travel in uniform especially in summer when it's really hot.  I am also aware I should say something when in uniform but I have been bitten by that in the old days so I let them look like idiots.  Maybe when I do get out I will say something.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (27 Oct 2012)

For a short time while I was in Ottawa, I was labled the "Shuttle, Dress Nazi" because I would invariably pick someone up for dress infractions, headphones, summer/winter dress, poppies 'out of season' that kind of thing every time I used one of the shuttles (I worked at HDV so was close to...well...NOTHING!). I was 'politely' asked by 'a' senior individual to cease and desist the 'small' stuff which surprised me. It was frustrating as it makes me wonder if people don't know something as basic and commonplace as dress regulations (for dress of the day-nothing over the top here), what else were they not aware of wrt either their work or something else...?
Ottawa mellowed me out I guess and I have yet to get back on the band wagon since getting back home to Halifax. I picked up a couple young fellas last Thursday for wearing poppies but other than that, it has been 'quiet' around Stad and the Dkyd I guess. 
Note; I do not frequent Tim's or the Dkyd canteen (or whatever it is called these days) but have been told that a dress patrol could have a ball in either of them.

Pat


----------



## Tank Troll (27 Oct 2012)

I've get sick and tired of dealing with Offices and NCOs that don't wear their head dress in public, automatically take it off as soon as they get in their car. Matter of fact this summer the Det CSM of Aldershot even came out in his O group saying that you don't have to wear head dress in your personal vehicle on base. Even after it was pointed out to him that according to dress regs you do. No names but his regtiments unofficial motto "is never pass a fault" The worst is the Small Pack I see it being carried by more people in civis than in uniform. I've had leading seamen tell that they don't have to listen to me as I'm not in their chain of command. Sub Lt telling me to mind my on business when I told him he shouldn't be wearing neon yellow earbuds walking down the street in whites. So what do you do? You can only tilt a so many windmills till you just say F@#$ it.


----------



## TN2IC (27 Oct 2012)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> So what do you do? You can only tilt a so many windmills till you just say F@#$ it.



Give them a size 11 Kiwi anal ejection.


----------



## MikeL (27 Oct 2012)

Macey said:
			
		

> Give them a size 11 Kiwi anal ejection.



Assault?  Isn't that a bit overkill and you know a great way to slow down or end a career..


----------



## TN2IC (27 Oct 2012)

I simply forgot that it is hard to tell if someone is joking or not on the internet. This is a joke of course.


----------



## MikeL (27 Oct 2012)

I figured


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Oct 2012)

I've always taken my headress off in most buildings I've entered. 
Montfort, mall, restaurant- guessing that's a big no no?


----------



## aesop081 (27 Oct 2012)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Even after it was pointed out to him that according to dress regs you do.



The regs say a little more than that. You must have missed the parts where "unless such wear constitutes a hazard" or words to that effect.

I remove my headress immediately upon entering my car. Wearing my wedge is a problem when i turn my head thus creating a hazard.

Please, come jack me up. I dare you.


----------



## Shamrock (27 Oct 2012)

> 10. Non-Service Buildings. Headdress shall not normally be removed in any public place, including elevators. However, personnel may observe the custom practised by civilians in regard to the wearing of headdress in non-service buildings such as restaurants, theatres and civil courts. When on duty under arms as an escort in a civil court, headdress shall not be removed.
> 
> 11. Public Transportation. Personnel travelling aboard a local public conveyance may remove their headdress. Personnel travelling
> extended distances by aircraft, bus or rail, may remove their headdress while in transit, however, headdress shall be replaced prior to exiting the public conveyance, vehicle or aircraft.
> ...


----------



## winnipegoo7 (27 Oct 2012)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> ...don't have to wear head dress in your personal vehicle on base. Even after it was pointed out to him that according to dress regs you do... The worst is the Small Pack I see it being carried by more people in civis than in uniform.



Aren't small packs authorized for wear with civilian dress?

Which regulation requires that head dress be worn while driving a PMV?


----------



## Sigs Pig (27 Oct 2012)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Which regulation requires that head dress be worn while driving a PMV?



Well, according to Shamrock's quote, you wouldn't.

ME


----------



## Shamrock (27 Oct 2012)

That's a cut and paste from an Internet source and isn't necessarily the most up-to-date information. 

Please note the inconsistency within the extract itself. It appears headdress is not to be worn in PMV less when leaving/arriving on a base. It also seems to say the removal of headdress is at the discretion of the senior most member in the vehicle - so, a no hook trooper can make the call to doff hat if he or she is the only soul in the vehicle. 

I had originally pulled that to refute the claim that headdress must be worn indoors less messes or mess-like locales.


----------



## Tank Troll (28 Oct 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The regs say a little more than that. You must have missed the parts where "unless such wear constitutes a hazard" or words to that effect.
> 
> I remove my headress immediately upon entering my car. Wearing my wedge is a problem when i turn my head thus creating a hazard.
> 
> Please, come jack me up. I dare you.



Please come jack me up. I dare you? What are you 8? Wow really? Thats how you respond? Arn't you or weren't you teaching at CFRS? Nice example you are setting.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Oct 2012)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Please come jack me up. I dare you? What are you 8? Wow really? Thats how you respond? Arn't you or weren't you teaching at CFRS? Nice example you are setting.



He was following up on your rant about officers and NCOs many of whom, as it turns out, ARE conforming with regs.



> I've get sick and tired of dealing with Offices and NCOs that don't wear their head dress in public, automatically take it off as soon as they get in their car.



So the person with the problem is...?


----------



## Pat in Halifax (28 Oct 2012)

Grammar Nazi - It is NCM, NCO is an Americanized term!...but...
I think it is clear in the 'cut and paste from the internet' quote and YES, that is up to date. You wear it in your car and you most definitely wear it in service vehicles. See though, and this is something you are missing, this is where we are separated from others by COMMON SENCE-if it just plain doesn't work...improvise. As an example, it was an unwritten rule that when summer dress came into effect, if you experienced a colder than usual spring day, you wore gloves (and maybe your issue toque). There was so much bickering and needling that it is now a regulation. What is next - Will a specific temperature make it into the dress manual?
I remember being in Ft Lauderdale about 5-6 years ago in March and we had to provide a contingent for a ceremony there. We had been warned when we left Halifax to bring our whites. Anyway, a certain member of the chosen honour said he couldn't wear his whites because winter dress was in effect. I promptly told him to f*** off (in a more diplomatic way) so he promptly went to see the Cox'n who also told him to f*** off (in a more literal way).
Common sense prevails. I am 6'4" and 250 lbs and when I fold myself into my old Mustang, wearing headdress is physically impossible especially a peak cap. I do however make sure it is going on my head as I alight and unfold myself from the car. I remember my incident I was picked up for recently. When stopping for a coffee in the Byward Cafe in Ottawa's airport (removing my beret), my flight was departing from one of the gates right there. When it was about 15 minutes out from departure, I paid my bill and got in line. My beret SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON from the moment I left the cafe until I was on the aircraft and those are the rules. I was wrong, it was no big deal, and I think I actually thanked the MWO and the world did not end.
This thread DID NOT START because of incidents like these. This thread started because of the guys (and gals) wandering around with jackets undone, headdress off in a public place and generally looking slovenly in uniform. I understand many of us are passionate about what we do  but sometimes our passion may muddle our view of things (and I am no exception to this). Of course we aren't going to 'jack someone up' driving down Prospect Bay Rd at 0530 but someone on Metro Transit, yes or someone (and this gets me especially when it happens on Base) who completely disregards a well-advertised dress reg.
Rant done-Good Sunday morning to all!! Will be Hurricane-proofing the yard and house today.

Pat


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 Oct 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Grammar Nazi - It is NCM, NCO is an Americanized term!...but...
> I think it is clear in the 'cut and paste from the internet' quote and YES, that is up to date. You wear it in your car and you most definitely wear it in service vehicles. See though, and this is something you are missing, this is where we are separated from others by COMMON SENCE-if it just plain doesn't work...improvise. As an example, it was an unwritten rule that when summer dress came into effect, if you experienced a colder than usual spring day, you wore gloves (and maybe your issue toque). There was so much bickering and needling that it is now a regulation. What is next - Will a specific temperature make it into the dress manual?
> I remember being in Ft Lauderdale about 5-6 years ago in March and we had to provide a contingent for a ceremony there. We had been warned when we left Halifax to bring our whites. Anyway, a certain member of the chosen honour said he couldn't wear his whites because winter dress was in effect. I promptly told him to f*** off (in a more diplomatic way) so he promptly went to see the Cox'n who also told him to f*** off (in a more literal way).
> Common sense prevails. I am 6'4" and 250 lbs and when I fold myself into my old Mustang, wearing headdress is physically impossible especially a peak cap. I do however make sure it is going on my head as I alight and unfold myself from the car. I remember my incident I was picked up for recently. When stopping for a coffee in the Byward Cafe in Ottawa's airport (removing my beret), my flight was departing from one of the gates right there. When it was about 15 minutes out from departure, I paid my bill and got in line. My beret SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON from the moment I left the cafe until I was on the aircraft and those are the rules. I was wrong, it was no big deal, and I think I actually thanked the MWO and the world did not end.
> ...




NCM is a fairly recent thing.

When I began my service we were subdivided into: Officers and men (yes, there were women, but not many and they didn't count for much).

          Within the officer ranks there were also divisions (general officers, senior officers, field officers, junior officers - who were further subdivided into
          captains and subalterns) and subordinate officers who were not really officers at all, yet); and

          We, men, were subdivided into warrant officers, senior NCOs and the _rank and file_, who comprised the junior NCOs and private soldiers.

But we were *NCOs*: one went on a *Junior NCO Course* and then a *Senior NCO Course*.

I'm guessing that the NDA and QR&O still talks about NCOs.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (28 Oct 2012)

Fair enough. I suppose it is like the term "Compensatory Leave". I know in the Navy, the terms 'senior' and 'junior rates' is still thrown around too. 
See, now you guys have me all riled up and I feel the need to go head hunting for dress infractions tomorrow!!-I do have a pretty heavy schedule though...hmm! What to do...

Pat


----------



## George Wallace (28 Oct 2012)

Shall I merge this with all our other "Headdress" and "Dress" Threads, as we seem to be rehashing the same questions that we 'discussed' in the recent past?


----------



## Sigs Pig (28 Oct 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ... (yes, there were women, but not many and they didn't count for much)....



Thank you sir, you made my day!!

 ;D Can only wish for the 'good ol' days' now.  ;D

ME


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Shall I merge this with all our other "Headdress" and "Dress" Threads, as we seem to be rehashing the same questions that we 'discussed' in the recent past?



Four more pages from this year.

"In public in Uniform...":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/104222.0.html


----------



## George Wallace (28 Oct 2012)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Four more pages from this year.
> 
> "In public in Uniform...":
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/104222.0.html



I would rather leave the CADET uniform out of this if possible (although hard to do in some cases).


----------



## 6V666 (28 Oct 2012)

You DON'T  have to wear headdress in your own car.


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 Oct 2012)

Sigs Pig said:
			
		

> Thank you sir, you made my day!!
> 
> ;D Can only wish for the 'good ol' days' now.  ;D
> 
> ME




Trust me, the "good old days" weren't very good at all.

Looking back on 35 years plus of military service I think I can say with all honesty that women and men are pretty much the same. Yes there are some women who are _weak_ and have trouble doing some of the assigned tasks; but there are, in pretty much the same proportion, _weak_ men who are physically unable to dot their jobs as well as I would wish. I never served with or near a female _drama queen_ but I can, easily remember three such men - and one of them made it all the way to flag rank!

The fact was that the army (and navy and air force too, I suspect) of the 1960s was closed minded, backwards, sexist and unfair.

One memory: a somewhat overweight soldier was having trouble loading something heavy onto a truck, as he sweated and heaved and cursed a young, slightly built female NCO came around, gave the fellow one withering look and said, "Right, you fat slob, pick up your end ... lift ... heave!" And the job was done. I instructed a very, very senior member of the unit to ensure that the overweight, unfit fellow was made to shape up ASAP. I think I smiled when I learned that his _remedial_ training was being supervised by the very same slightly built female NCO.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Oct 2012)

I knew I shouldn't have looked in here  :facepalm:


----------



## George Wallace (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> You DON'T  have to wear headdress in your own car.



That is not true.  You do not have to wear headdress in your car if you are driving a long distance, if it is a safety issue (ie. you are six foot six and drive a Austin Mini), etc.  If you are a passenger, you are expected to wear your headdress so that you can pay compliments.  It is not a "SIMPLE" 'you do not have to wear headdress in your own car' rule, as you seem to imply.  Perhaps you should sift back through all these posts and read the REGULATIONS that have been posted.


The same can be said for all those who wander out of or into a DND building transiting to/from the parking lot without headdress.   They are flaunting the Regs.


----------



## winnipegoo7 (28 Oct 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is not a "SIMPLE" 'you do not have to wear headdress in your own car' rule...



12. Military and Privately Owned Motor Vehicles (PMV)

a. Members wearing the uniform shall wear appropriate headdress while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicle *except*:

(1) if the roof of the vehicle is too low to permit headdress to be worn with comfort and safety;

(2) on extended trips;

(3) on order of the senior members present; and 

*(4) in a staff car, PMV or bus*

I'm confused. Doesn't para 4 say that head dress is NOT required in a PMV? Which regulation do you have that contradicts this one?


----------



## Teeps74 (28 Oct 2012)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> 12. Military and Privately Owned Motor Vehicles (PMV)
> 
> a. Members wearing the uniform shall wear appropriate headdress while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicle *except*:
> 
> ...



Just because... If I am alone in a car, I can order myself to remove headdress... Regardless of rank, alone does equal senior member... ;D


----------



## Teeps74 (28 Oct 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That is not true.  You do not have to wear headdress in your car if you are driving a long distance, if it is a safety issue (ie. you are six foot six and drive a Austin Mini), etc.  If you are a passenger, you are expected to wear your headdress so that you can pay compliments.  It is not a "SIMPLE" 'you do not have to wear headdress in your own car' rule, as you seem to imply.  Perhaps you should sift back through all these posts and read the REGULATIONS that have been posted.
> 
> 
> *The same can be said for all those who wander out of or into a DND building transiting to/from the parking lot without headdress.   They are flaunting the Regs.
> *



That is true, and where I work, people are constantly corrected for this behaviour. As to the dress regs on this subject, they are contradictory and lacking substance (i.e. define "an extended trip", sub para 3 and 4 are confusing and contradictory at best).


----------



## George Wallace (28 Oct 2012)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> I'm confused. Doesn't para 4 say that head dress is NOT required in a PMV? Which regulation do you have that contradicts this one?




So you are confused.   What is new?  

Want me to add to your confusion?  Change of subject.  The CF policy on physical fitness is that the CF Expres if the only recognized physical fitness standard.  However, to be promoted and deemed physically fit, one must past the BFT.  Only after failing the BFT twice, will they do the CF Expres test and have it recognized.  Ummmmm?  Contradictory orders from various command levels.  I see a pattern here.

Back to your HEADRESS......What does your boss expect of you, his/her lowly minion?


----------



## winnipegoo7 (28 Oct 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So you are confused.   What is new?
> 
> Want me to add to your confusion?  Change of subject.  The CF policy on physical fitness is that the CF Expres if the only recognized physical fitness standard.  However, to be promoted and deemed physically fit, one must past the BFT.  Only after failing the BFT twice, will they do the CF Expres test and have it recognized.  Ummmmm?  Contradictory orders from various command levels.  I see a pattern here.
> 
> Back to your HEADRESS......What does your boss expect of you, his/her lowly minion?



We follow the dress regs as written at my unit:

12.- A -4 says no head dress required in PMV
12.- B -2 says put it upon exiting the PMV

Seems simple to me.

And my boss is not allowed to use the word 'minion' to describe us anymore. Someone made a complaint.


----------



## Teeps74 (28 Oct 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So you are confused.   What is new?
> 
> Want me to add to your confusion?  Change of subject.  The CF policy on physical fitness is that the CF Expres if the only recognized physical fitness standard.  However, to be promoted and deemed physically fit, one must past the BFT.  Only after failing the BFT twice, will they do the CF Expres test and have it recognized.  Ummmmm?  Contradictory orders from various command levels.  I see a pattern here.
> 
> Back to your HEADRESS......*What does your boss expect of you, his/her lowly minion?*



And therein lies the correct answer.  Base standing orders sometimes (not always) addresses this issue, and sometimes it is unit standing orders. The RSM will dictate and clarify the direction to be taken with regards to dress.

Ya know, one could turn the contradictory orders thing into a drinking game... Just not sure my liver could handle it...


----------



## Shamrock (28 Oct 2012)

Perhaps, in the same light That RSMs can prescribe more restrictive summer and winter dress instructions, they can issue more restrictive headdress policy. Has anyone seen any Standing Orders anywhere reflective of base, wing, or unit headdress policy?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (28 Oct 2012)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> And my boss is not allowed to use the word 'minion' to describe us anymore. Someone made a complaint.



Minion: a servile follower or subordinate of a person in power. 2. a favored or highly regarded person. 3. a minor official. 

Did you fall out of favour with your Boss?


----------



## Teeps74 (28 Oct 2012)

Not sure I like the term "restrictive"... Sometimes, the RSM, may out of necessity of the day, make something less "restrictive"...  Just nit-picking to be sure. I prefer the term "clarification" or "clarify".


----------



## winnipegoo7 (28 Oct 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Minion: a servile follower or subordinate of a person in power. 2. a favored or highly regarded person. 3. a minor official.
> 
> Did you fall out of favour with your Boss?



I'm not sure I ever attained minion status, Lol. It happened before I got posted in. But one member did receive a written warning regarding the use of the word being used to describe low ranking personnel in the unit.


----------



## cupper (28 Oct 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Fair enough. I suppose it is like the term "Compensatory Leave". I know in the Navy, the terms 'senior' and 'junior rates' is still thrown around too.
> See, now you guys have me all riled up and I feel the need to go head hunting for dress infractions tomorrow!!-I do have a pretty heavy schedule though...hmm! What to do...
> 
> Pat



Wait until Wednesday, then you can vent by jacking up civilian kids for not having their Halloween costume squared away. >

And if people ask, just tell them your dressed up as a cranky old sailor! ;D


----------



## Robert0288 (28 Oct 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> He was standing at the platform wearing the helmet as well as on the train. Kosher?



That just sounds... special.  Doesn't take much effort to clip a helmet onto your tacvest.


----------



## NavalMoose (28 Oct 2012)

I remember being on the bus in Halifax one very cold day and seeing a reserve Lt wearing an orange survival suit over his navy uniform, had to shake my head on that one.  He was the same Lt that fell in Halifax harbour when not hanging on properly on a RHIB and halting the entire exercise.


----------



## Sigs Pig (28 Oct 2012)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> That just sounds... special.  Doesn't take much effort to clip a helmet onto your tacvest.



But then he would be hatless, having left his beret in his locker.

ME


----------



## JorgSlice (28 Oct 2012)

Sigs Pig said:
			
		

> But then he would be hatless, having left his beret in his locker.
> 
> ME



It was in his pocket, BCR badge sticking out the top of the leg cargo pocket... He's just trying to pick up all those Granola-eating hippie chicks in East Van  ;D


----------



## Shamrock (28 Oct 2012)

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> I remember being on the bus in Halifax one very cold day and seeing a reserve Lt wearing an orange survival suit over his navy uniform, had to shake my head on that one.  He was the same Lt that fell in Halifax harbour when not hanging on properly on a RHIB and halting the entire exercise.



Probably related.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (28 Oct 2012)

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> I remember being on the bus in Halifax one very cold day and seeing a reserve Lt wearing an orange survival suit over his navy uniform, had to shake my head on that one.  He was the same Lt that fell in Halifax harbour when not hanging on properly on a RHIB and halting the entire exercise.


I remember that. The guy had the same name (first and last, same rank too!) as my EO at the time. (I think it was TOR). We gave him a hard time for quite a while!
That said, that's a new one-Have never seen that though I have heard of people out in public in NCDs and canary rain jacket.


----------



## 6V666 (28 Oct 2012)

Ok,  everybody is right in a way. Lets not forget we are in 2012 all  the CF regulations were riten long long time ago way before Human Rights came in play. Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble.  RIGHTS. I keep hearing everyday  Discrimination or Singling Out words.  What is more sad that I am in Borden where suposed to be more discipline


----------



## NavalMoose (28 Oct 2012)

"Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble"


Let me be the first to say that you are talking out of an area usually reserved for funny noises and bad smells.  No one in uniform is allowed to have their headphones in rocking out to whatever, I don't know where you got that information but I may have some swampland in Florida for sale if you are interested.


----------



## Teeps74 (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> Ok,  everybody is right in a way. Lets not forget we are in 2012 all  the CF regulations were riten long long time ago way before Human Rights came in play. Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble.  RIGHTS. I keep hearing everyday  Discrimination or Singling Out words.  What is more sad that I am in Borden where suposed to be more discipline



Oh wrong wrong wrong... Walk around with iPod earbuds in your head and I, and folks like me will talk you out of it... We might not give you three weeks of pack drill anymore, but we will not just let one walk about flaunting the rules. Rights do not trump rightful regs.


----------



## JorgSlice (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> Ok,  everybody is right in a way. Lets not forget we are in 2012 all  the CF regulations were riten long long time ago way before Human Rights came in play. Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble.  RIGHTS. I keep hearing everyday  Discrimination or Singling Out words.  What is more sad that I am in Borden where suposed to be more discipline



Hahaha, okay there Champ. Try and say the same thing to your Course WO or RSM.

You do realize that within the Ethos and even in the papers you signed... it states that you agreed to surrender some of your freedoms and rights etc. in order to adhere to uniformity of service... right? You know that right?


----------



## 6V666 (28 Oct 2012)

I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in diferent place with  a Lawyer and CBC present. It is a new World  not 1960!!!!


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in diferent place with  a Lawyer and CBC present. It is a new World  not 1960!!!!



 :facepalm:


----------



## NavalMoose (28 Oct 2012)

> I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in diferent place with  a Lawyer and CBC present. It is a new World  not 1960!!!!



Ah, the future messdeck lawyer, do yourself and the CF a favour and get out now, you are just making a fool of yourself.


----------



## TN2IC (28 Oct 2012)

delete the post please

Okay.. I did say "It sounds like a personal problem."  ;D


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in diferent place with  a Lawyer and CBC present. It is a new World  not 1960!!!!



Oh, you're one of _THOSE_ guys, enjoy your career.


----------



## 241 (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in different place with  a Lawyer and CBC present. It is a new World  not 1960!!!!



Jr, you had best go sit in a corner and take a time out before you dig that hole any deeper.  And while your there given your life choices a second thought, maybe signing on the dotted line wasn't the best choice you have made, ya just don't seem to be cut out for it....  Try the boy Scouts...


----------



## Journeyman (28 Oct 2012)

Macey said:
			
		

> delete the post please


No way. Leave it up.   op:


----------



## NavalMoose (28 Oct 2012)

Hurricane Sandy has got nothing compared to this s@#t storm...lol


----------



## jeffb (28 Oct 2012)

Guys, in fairness he is absolutely right. There was no regulation governing the usage of IPhones in the 1960's.


----------



## NavalMoose (28 Oct 2012)

He's probably on Facebook, counting his "likes" right now, hopefully he will give us some more of his wisdom and experiences soon.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble. .



No they can't and since you don't know what you are talking about please STFU........

And Schools/Units can impose their own rules....


----------



## brihard (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in diferent place with  a Lawyer and CBC present. It is a new World  not 1960!!!!



Somewhere there is a tree, working tirelessly to produce oxygen so you can breathe and, I'm sad to say, talk. I believe you owe it an apology.


----------



## Teeps74 (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in diferent place with  a Lawyer and CBC present. It is a new World  not 1960!!!!



Son, you are barking up the wrong tree. Bring a lawyer and CBC next time someone counsels you properly for dress and deportment... Fact is, neither would bother to give you the time of day, as counseling for deficiencies is still most certainly allowed in the CF (indeed in most civi workplaces too).


----------



## George Wallace (28 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> Ok,  everybody is right in a way. Lets not forget we are in 2012 all  the CF regulations were riten long long time ago way before Human Rights came in play. Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble.  RIGHTS. I keep hearing everyday  Discrimination or Singling Out words.  What is more sad that I am in Borden where suposed to be more discipline





Umm?  Do you know how stupid that made you sound.  Yes it is 2012, and soon it will be 2013.  Guess what.  Just take a look at any of the CF Regulations and Orders and you will see that they are ROUTINELY ammended and updated.......We are not operating off of 1960 CF Regulations anymore than you are getting paid at the 1960 rates for your Pay Level.

OH!....By the way, a Private on up to CDS can't listen to an iPod or Cell Phone, etc. in some of the places I work.


----------



## ModlrMike (29 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> I dare you guys. Next thing we will meet again in diferent place with  a Lawyer and CBC present.



No, we'll meet in front of a service tribunal where I, or someone like me, will have my head dress on, but you will not!


----------



## Shamrock (29 Oct 2012)

I wonder if his lawyer can also help address this godawful requirement for me to wear underwear in uniform.


----------



## cupper (29 Oct 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> I wonder if his lawyer can also help address this godawful requirement for me to wear underwear in uniform.



Hell, Let's just all go naked!  

But you still have to wear your headdress in a PMV ;D


----------



## my72jeep (29 Oct 2012)

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> 12. Military and Privately Owned Motor Vehicles (PMV)
> 
> a. Members wearing the uniform shall wear appropriate headdress while operating or travelling as a passenger in all military vehicle *except*:
> 
> ...




I love line (1) I drive my 85 CJ7 Jeep topless from the first of May till Labour day, head dress never stays on past 20km. Hell at 10 km the fold starts to create lift.


----------



## medicineman (29 Oct 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> I wonder if his lawyer can also help address this godawful requirement for me to wear underwear in uniform.



We had a stand by your bed inspection by the outgoing School RSM in Borden in our skivies while on my 5's...with ID discs on, environmentally appropriate boots and head dress.  The ladies on the course wore isolation gowns in the interest of modesty.

We also had a course standard of "No underwear Thursdays" as well...

MM


----------



## blackberet17 (29 Oct 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> I wonder if his lawyer can also help address this godawful requirement for me to wear underwear in uniform.



Underwear? Wassat?


----------



## Bzzliteyr (29 Oct 2012)

medicineman said:
			
		

> We also had a course standard of "No underwear Thursdays" as well...
> 
> MM



Which is illegal against dress regs: 

"Undergarments including a brassiere for
female personnel shall be worn under all orders of
dress and shall be of an appropriate colour so as
not to be visible through uniform items of clothing."


----------



## Infanteer (29 Oct 2012)

Is this going anywhere?


----------



## my72jeep (29 Oct 2012)

Not any more.


----------



## Danjanou (29 Oct 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Which is illegal against dress regs:
> 
> "Undergarments including a brassiere for
> female personnel shall be worn under all orders of
> ...



Never served in a kilted regiment I take it? 8)


----------



## Nfld Sapper (29 Oct 2012)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Is this going anywhere?









 ;D


----------



## Bzzliteyr (29 Oct 2012)

I disagree.. yes it's going nowhere but there is valuable information here that younger people could use, especially 6V666.

I have a difficult time knwing the CF has twitter feeds, facebook pages, veterans websites but still has no dress regulations posted online for anyone to download as a PDF.  I wonder what rules I'd be breaking if I put it up on dropbox to share?


----------



## Pat in Halifax (29 Oct 2012)

First hit on a google search:
http://www.cfc.forces.gc.ca/255/251/A-DH-265-000-AG-001.pdf


----------



## Bzzliteyr (29 Oct 2012)

Intersting, using the search terms "CF dress regulations" and "cfp 265" I get nowhere near that site (using Bing on DND computer).

What term did you use?


----------



## Pat in Halifax (29 Oct 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Intersting, using the search terms "*CF dress regulations*" and "cfp 265" I get nowhere near that site (using Bing on DND computer).
> 
> What term did you use?



Underlined. I do however question how quickly any updates may make it there. That said, most of us (if it is major) I am sure will hear it through a CANFORGEN or through the CoC grapevine.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (29 Oct 2012)

Wow, that's the latest version!!  

We need to post that link and make it a sticky somewhere.


----------



## Journeyman (29 Oct 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> That said, most of us (if it is major) I am sure will hear it through a CANFORGEN or through the CoC grapevine.


...or through the time-honoured method of having a Sergeant-Major (or Coxswain for the Navy folks) tear us a new orifice.

.... for the Airforce I guess the Chief would snub them, or not give any hugs or high-fives, until their sensitivity kicked in and they thought "I've hurt his feelings; what have I done wrong?"


Actually, even mentioning "Airforce" (not to be confused with Tac Hel) in a dress & deportment thread is vaguely ludicrous.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (29 Oct 2012)

I thought 265 didn't apply to the 'fairer' blue!
I am looking for a 'wind up' emoticon!!
Come on now, you guys (and gals) know we in the Navy love you!!...but your 'old cars' keep leaving big stains in the 'driveway'! We even had to change the colour of the flight decks from green to...'leaky helicopter' grey.

Pat


----------



## Bluebulldog (29 Oct 2012)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> Underwear? Wassat?



The green cloth with black elastic you armour types use to check the dipstick on the G-Wagon.......


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Oct 2012)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> The green cloth with black elastic you armour types use to check the dipstick on the G-Wagon.......



If I have to check the dipstick on the G-Wagon, I typically just talk to him. I don't show him my underwear. You have us confused with the Navy guys (sodomy, the lash and all that).


----------



## Bluebulldog (29 Oct 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If I have to check the dipstick on the G-Wagon, I typically just talk to him. I don't show him my underwear. You have us confused with the Navy guys (sodomy, the lash and all that).



 :duel:............well played sir...well played.


----------



## blackberet17 (29 Oct 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If I have to check the dipstick on the G-Wagon, I typically just talk to him. I don't show him my underwear. You have us confused with the Navy guys (sodomy, the lash and all that).


 :rofl:
Oh, sorry. So funny, I have tears in my eyes...

I do like the fact (and I didn't quote, I just saw it above) the undergarment can be of any colour, so long as it does not show through the cadpat... however, the slightest bit of colour which should happen to appear as a person is.... ermm.... bent over a task, well. That may be an issue


----------



## George Wallace (29 Oct 2012)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> I do like the fact (and I didn't quote, I just saw it above) the undergarment can be of any colour, so long as it does not show through the cadpat... however, the slightest bit of colour which should happen to appear as a person is.... ermm.... bent over a task, well. That may be an issue




Wouldn't we all look like baboons if we had to paint our "Plumber's butt" to comply with regulations?


----------



## blackberet17 (29 Oct 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Wouldn't we all look like baboons if we had to paint our "Plumber's butt" to comply with regulations?



Hmm... only if we paint them pink?


----------



## blackberet17 (29 Oct 2012)




----------



## blackberet17 (29 Oct 2012)

Gives whole new meaning to "I *heart* you"....


----------



## Loachman (29 Oct 2012)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> however, the slightest bit of colour which should happen to appear as a person is.... ermm.... bent over a task, well.



The 10 TAG (now 1 Wing) Change-of-Command Parade in St-Hubert many years ago featured, aside from the conventional Officers and NCMs formed up neatly in dress uniforms, several Twin Hueys and Kiowas arranged behind them. Crews were standing beside their mounts, dressed in the old tan wool/poly flying suits.

It rained significantly, with two effects on the tan flying suits.

They smelled like wet dog.

They went somewhat semi-transparent and stuck to skin and undergarments.

The fellow in the bright red gotch drew the most comment from Mrs Comd 10 TAG. Orders regarding undergarment colour swiftly followed.


----------



## MikeL (29 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> Ok,  everybody is right in a way. Lets not forget we are in 2012 all  the CF regulations were riten long long time ago way before Human Rights came in play. Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble.  RIGHTS. I keep hearing everyday  Discrimination or Singling Out words.  What is more sad that I am in Borden where suposed to be more discipline



Didn't see the rules posted on this so here it is
From the 2011 edition of the Dress Regs



> 3. Military Presence. Personnel in uniform
> shall be well groomed, with footwear cleaned and
> shone, and uniform cleaned and properly pressed. In
> particular, buttons, fasteners and zippers shall be
> ...





> 7.   Commercial Headsets 7.   Casques d’écoute
> a. Commercial headsets from either a radio
> receiver or CD/tape player shall not be worn
> by personnel in uniform, except where
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2012)

Ok then 6v666' what do you say now?

6v666, shake your head.


----------



## Shamrock (29 Oct 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Intersting, using the search terms "CF dress regulations" and "cfp 265" I get nowhere near that site (using Bing on DND computer).
> 
> What term did you use?



On your DWAN computer, into the address bar, input: 

publications

That's it.  No www.  No .mil.ca.  Just publicatons.


----------



## Teeps74 (29 Oct 2012)

I have to say... Who knew that a thread on dress regs, could be so entertaining?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Oct 2012)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Grammar Nazi - It is NCM, NCO is an Americanized term!...but...



NCO is not just an Amercian term.  I have a book circa 1970s somewhere called the NCOs Handbook, CAF issue.  Jnr NCO and Snr NCO are pretty common terms.  Also not properly used in todays CF.

 :


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Oct 2012)

6V666 said:
			
		

> Ok,  everybody is right in a way. Lets not forget we are in 2012 all  the CF regulations were riten long long time ago way before Human Rights came in play. Today a Private can listen to his IPode, talk on his Cell phone etc while in Uniform and  you can't say anything or you will get in trouble.  RIGHTS. I keep hearing everyday  Discrimination or Singling Out words.  What is more sad that I am in Borden where suposed to be more discipline


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Oct 2012)

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> I have to say... Who knew that a thread on dress regs, could be so entertaining?



Best 10 minutes or so I wasted in a long time!  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> NCO is not just an Amercian term.  I have a book circa 1970s somewhere called the NCOs Handbook, CAF issue.  Jnr NCO and Snr NCO are pretty common terms.  Also not properly used in todays CF.
> 
> :



NCO is an accepted term in the CF and has been for many many years. NCM is an invented term from the 80s to describe those pers that are not commissioned. Before we went to the term NCM if I remember correctly, it was officers and Other Ranks (OR).


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Oct 2012)

...and if you really consider it, NCM could and perhaps should include OCdt/NCdts, who in fact have not been Commissioned yet.   >  They are NCMs. 

;D


----------



## Tank Troll (29 Oct 2012)

:goodpost:

True very good point that would work for NCO also.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (30 Oct 2012)

Agreed, I was only stating what is in the books and what is taught on PLQ, ILP, ALP, SLP and the new one replacing SAP and KAP (acronym escapes me). In the Navy, it is now a term of endearment for new OS when we call them ODs. The D in fact is anything but praise worthy. The term however is used throughout the Navy with no real offence now intended. There is a table I was shown that has apparently been around for a while though I had never seen it. It breaks down the various ranks into 'groups' and all I remember was that CWO/CPO1s were Warrants (Just like the scroll says).
It was also explained at the same time, why NCdt/OCdts are indeed NOT NCMs. I will try to find it and post it. It was actually the Cmdt of  CFLRS who talked to a course about this 'confusing' term NCM.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Oct 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ...and if you really consider it, NCM could and perhaps should include OCdt/NCdts, who in fact have not been Commissioned yet.   >  They are NCMs.
> 
> ;D




Back in the days to which Jim Seggie refers (Officers and ORs), officer cadets were categorized as "subordinate officers."


----------



## Bzzliteyr (30 Oct 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> On your DWAN computer, into the address bar, input:
> 
> publications
> 
> That's it.  No www.  No .mil.ca.  Just publicatons.



THAT. Is sexy.  Who knew?  I wonder what other cool words we can type in there?


----------



## blackberet17 (30 Oct 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ...and if you really consider it, NCM could and perhaps should include OCdt/NCdts, who in fact have not been Commissioned yet.   >  They are NCMs.



That's funny. When I was on BMQ as an OCdt, I was referred to as LTPS... "Lower Than Pond Scum"  ;D


----------



## my72jeep (30 Oct 2012)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> That's funny. When I was on BMQ as an OCdt, I was referred to as LTPS... "Lower Than Pond Scum"  ;D


In my first unit as an OCdt. I was referred to as SLJO "Shity Little Jobs Officer"


----------



## gcclarke (30 Oct 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In my first unit as an OCdt. I was referred to as SLJO "Shity Little Jobs Officer"



I'm pretty sure that's a position which is not always reserved for OCdts.


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Oct 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In my first unit as an OCdt. I was referred to as SLJO "Shity Little Jobs Officer"





			
				gcclarke said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that's a position which is not always reserved for OCdts.



In Ottawa they call the SLJO "Major"......


----------



## my72jeep (30 Oct 2012)

:goodpost: 


			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> In Ottawa they call the SLJO "Major"......


----------



## J_Delorme (30 Oct 2012)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that's a position which is not always reserved for OCdts.



That is a "subbie" deal....even some junior Capt can claim that title


----------



## J_Delorme (30 Oct 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> :goodpost:



Ive heard Light Colonels scramble to get coffee in Ottawa


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Oct 2012)

Quo vadis said:
			
		

> Ive heard Light Colonels scramble to get coffee in Ottawa



Not quite....the LCol asks politley if the VIP would like a "double double" and then tasks a SLJO....a major


----------



## medicineman (30 Oct 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Not quite....the LCol asks politley if the VIP would like a "double double" and then tasks a SLJO....a major



With a formal Op Order no doubt...

MM


----------



## Ontariomario1 (31 Oct 2012)

I Always have my Balmoral on when going to and from work, but thats only to ensure I don't forget it.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (31 Oct 2012)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> That's funny. When I was on BMQ as an OCdt, I was referred to as LTPS... "Lower Than Pond Scum"  ;D



Good to see the standard is being maintained in the 17th  >.


----------



## Danjanou (31 Oct 2012)

I'll decline to comment on what I called the O/Cdt the CQMS issued to me when I was a Warrant. I checked and he's still in and a Brigade Commander. 8)







Man I feel old  :'(


----------



## AKa (31 Oct 2012)

For your edification, the rules on earbuds in uniform have been updated to permit their use on public transport.  (I would hope that pers will apply common sense and use ones in neutral colours.)  Nice for those with long commutes.

The reference is the Minutes of the National Defence Clothing and Dress Committee for the meeting of 6 March 2012, para 10.  (I tried to download the document but it hung up the system.)

Cheers,


----------



## Bzzliteyr (31 Oct 2012)

AK said:
			
		

> For your edification, the rules on earbuds in uniform have been updated to permit their use on public transport.  (I would hope that pers will apply common sense and use ones in neutral colours.)  Nice for those with long commutes.
> 
> The reference is the Minutes of the National Defence Clothing and Dress Committee for the meeting of 6 March 2012, para 10.  (I tried to download the document but it hung up the system.)
> 
> Cheers,



Have a DIN link to that?


----------



## dapaterson (31 Oct 2012)

Main page:  http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/cfp-pfc/index-eng.asp

March 2012 Dress Committee minutes: http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/cfp-pfc/doc/NDCDC_2012_03_00.pdf


----------



## Steve_D (31 Oct 2012)

Interesting Read. Thank you for that.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (31 Oct 2012)

Yes, thank you from me too. Another one of those directives that never seemed to quite make it out to ALL of the general populace. I wonder how I missed it???

Pat


----------



## Bzzliteyr (31 Oct 2012)

I had my RSM in Montreal show me the dress commitee received back in 2009.  It was as fun to read back then.


----------



## blackberet17 (31 Oct 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Good to see the standard is being maintained in the 17th  >.



Now I need to know how you know that! 

I also acquired the nickname Mr. Skittles, but that's a different story.


----------



## NavalMoose (31 Oct 2012)

[


----------



## cupper (31 Oct 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In my first unit as an OCdt. I was referred to as SLJO "Shity Little Jobs Officer"



I was always told never to acknowledge them, as it would only build up their sense of hope and well being. >


----------



## Old EO Tech (26 Nov 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Back in the days to which Jim Seggie refers (Officers and ORs), officer cadets were categorized as "subordinate officers."



NCO has long roots in British Commonwealth/Empire military, if anything the US borrowed it from us   The US does use the term "non-com" which is strictly an Americanism.  If in doubt use the Defence Terminology Bank on the DWAN, NCO is still an approved acronym.  NCM is a term coined by the CF in the 90's to replace the rather archaic OR, Other Ranks term.  It is not a replacement for NCO, WO or Pte when these terms should be used instead.  And despite it's regular use there is no such official term as JrNCM or SrNCM :-/

OCdt/NCdt are still "subordinate officers" though the term is another one not used much anymore.  As they also qualify as Junior Officers under it's definition of Capt and below.  Prior to the NDA changes in 97 OCdt could not actually issue commands to anyone, since 97 they are full Junior Officers and can legally issue commands.   In the Army we still use the term "subbie" to refer to Junior Officers, as an abbreviation of Subaltern Officers which is borrowed(anglicized) from the French word for Junior.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Nov 2012)

Subbies are 2Lts / Lts; Junior Officers includes Captain.

The NDA does not include definitions of subordinate officer, junior officer or senior officer.  However, an OCdt is defined as an officer under the definitions in the act.


----------



## Old EO Tech (26 Nov 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Subbies are 2Lts / Lts; Junior Officers includes Captain.
> 
> The NDA does not include definitions of subordinate officer, junior officer or senior officer.  However, an OCdt is defined as an officer under the definitions in the act.



Well there is no real point in arguing over what a subbie is or is not since there is no official definition, but in my unit I can say it definitely includes junior Capt's, I know this for a fact as they are all going "subbie Christmas caroling" to the senior officers residences as part of the calendar of events prior to the holiday leave block.

Maybe the NDA doesn't define levels of officers but since the DTB(as well as the CF Manual of Abbreviations published in 2010 with amendments in July 2011) does include those terms as official, I'd have to assume that their definitions are doctrine under the authority of the CDS.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2012)

Rank Structure

I've never heard of a OCdt referred to as a Junior Officer before.  OCdt are not yet commissioned and are Subordinate Officers IAW our rank structure, but considered Officers nonetheless.

From QR & O, Vol I, Art 1.02 - Definitions: (* Indicates definition drawn from the National Defence Act.)

"non-commissioned member" (militaire du rang)
means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces; *

"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)
means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;    (makes sense that MCpl is not there, because a MCpl's rank is that of Cpl)

"officer" (officier)
means
a. a person who holds Her Majesty's commission in the Canadian Forces,
b. a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and
c. any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces; * 


*these _official definitions_, of course, do not account for environmental/Branch/Regimental/Unit/Base or any other unofficial *isms* that are tossed about in the CF of today.   ;D

** reading this also makes me wonder what it would look like to see, say a OCdt with one week in the CF give a "lawful command" to the School RSM at CFLRS or the Infantry School or something.   >


----------



## Loachman (26 Nov 2012)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> In the Army we still use the term "subbie" to refer to Junior Officers, as an abbreviation of Subaltern Officers which is borrowed(anglicized) from the French word for Junior.



I have never, in over thirty-nine years, heard a Captain referred to as a subaltern.


----------



## Shamrock (26 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I have never, in over thirty-nine years, heard a Captain referred to as a subaltern.



It now refers to any officer on his first Regimental tour.  Quite a few officers arrive at the regiments from training and are promptly promoted.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Nov 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> It now refers to any officer on his first Regimental tour.  Quite a few officers arrive at the regiments from training and are promptly promoted.



Good point.  

In the old days, a Captain was often a more senior/experienced guy on unit...tac hel Captains were most likely Aircraft Commanders.  

Now, it is possible, due to long training periods and waits, for a unit to receive a new Captain who may not even be qualified on aircraft type yet... 

Regards
G2G


----------



## cupper (26 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I have never, in over thirty-nine years, heard a Captain referred to as a subaltern.



Although the QR&O's sets out the accepted rank structure and terms thereof, there are other references to various ranks and appointments in other documents and manuals which may or may not conform to those in the QR&O's.

The example that comes to mind is the Manual of Drill and Ceremonial. The various positions during parades use terms such as subalterns and supernumeraries without a specific reference to rank.

Just my  :2c:


----------



## blackberet17 (27 Nov 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Rank Structure
> ** reading this also makes me wonder what it would look like to see, say a OCdt with one week in the CF give a "lawful command" to the School RSM at CFLRS or the Infantry School or something.   >



Done. Okay, maybe not a week, but he only had a few months in, and tried to give an order to the SSM.

Close enough? It was funny as $hit to watch...


----------



## Nfld Sapper (27 Nov 2012)

So how many extras did the poor lad get.....

 ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Nov 2012)

...and how did he explain how that pacestick got stuck there?   ;D


----------



## Loachman (27 Nov 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> tac hel Captains were most likely Aircraft Commanders.



So were a lot of Lieutenants.


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Nov 2012)

> Done. Okay, maybe not a week, but he only had a few months in, and tried to give an order to the SSM.
> 
> Close enough? It was funny as $hit to watch...



Okay, so after everyone was done getting their $hits and giggles from watching the OCdt get set up for facing the wrath of a Sergaent-Major, how many of the guys thought that it was worth the temporary amusement to set someone up for "failure" from the start...well done lads, and just one more reason why the chasm exists between some officers and NCMs.  Ha ha, some SM vents a spleen on an OCdt who dare issue an order...just remember who has (or will have) the vested authority to COMMAND...vice advise or pontificate. NCMs who truly understood the symbiotic relationship between Commander and Senior NCM Advisor get it...others who like to take the pi$$ out of a young subaltern for their own egotistically-driven reasons only do themselves and the NCMs a disservice with their shortsighted actions.

Put the self-centric "been there, done that, you don't know what the lads are thinking..." aside and help the soon-to-be-commissioned officer learn to lead in the manner that a professional senior soldier should do...

Regards
G2G


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Nov 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Okay, so after everyone was done getting their $hits and giggles from watching the OCdt get set up for facing the wrath of a Sergaent-Major, how many of the guys thought that it was worth the temporary amusement to set someone up for "failure" from the start...well done lads, and just one more reason why the chasm exists between some officers and NCMs.  Ha ha, some SM vents a spleen on an OCdt who dare issue an order...just remember who has (or will have) the vested authority to COMMAND...vice advise or pontificate. NCMs who truly understood the symbiotic relationship between Commander and Senior NCM Advisor get it...others who like to take the pi$$ out of a young subaltern for their own egotistically-driven reasons only do themselves and the NCMs a disservice with their shortsighted actions.
> 
> Put the self-centric "been there, done that, you don't know what the lads are thinking..." aside and help the soon-to-be-commissioned officer learn to lead in the manner that a professional senior soldier should do...
> 
> ...



You presume much. There's every probability that he was the architect of his own misfortune.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (28 Nov 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Okay, so after everyone was done getting their $hits and giggles from watching the OCdt get set up for facing the wrath of a Sergaent-Major, how many of the guys thought that it was worth the temporary amusement to set someone up for "failure" from the start...well done lads, and just one more reason why the chasm exists between some officers and NCMs.  Ha ha, some SM vents a spleen on an OCdt who dare issue an order...just remember who has (or will have) the vested authority to COMMAND...vice advise or pontificate. NCMs who truly understood the symbiotic relationship between Commander and Senior NCM Advisor get it...others who like to take the pi$$ out of a young subaltern for their own egotistically-driven reasons only do themselves and the NCMs a disservice with their shortsighted actions.
> 
> Put the self-centric "been there, done that, you don't know what the lads are thinking..." aside and help the soon-to-be-commissioned officer learn to lead in the manner that a professional senior soldier should do...
> 
> ...



Were you the OCdt?


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 Nov 2012)

You know, every fearsome sergeant major was, once upon a time, a young, inexpoerienced, private soldier who needed guidance, training and examples provided by NCOs *and officers*. Every colonel was an officer cadet. When the system works, and it doesn't always, NCOs set a good example by treating officer cadets with care and due respect ... officer training is, should be anyway, tough and rigorous; when it is does well it is done *by* NCOs and involves contact with troops. Equally, however, when it is done poorly it is, generally, also done by NCOs and also done in contact with troops but, sooner rather than later, a better NCO needs to come along and clean up: teaching the troops, by example, how good NCOs work with officer cadets under training.

We all started at the bottom; we all worked our way up - to corporal, warrant officer and so on, and to lieutenant, colonel and so on, too. Most of us learned the right lessons from our colleagues - of whatever ranks, but some scraped through as twits and bullies ... and I have seen them, equally, in the NCO and officer ranks.


----------



## Danjanou (28 Nov 2012)

:goodpost:


----------



## blackberet17 (30 Nov 2012)

No, I wasn't the OCdt. And yes, the OCdt in question actually was, as ModlrMike put it, the architect of his own misfortune.

He survived, no pace stick where the sun don't shine. But he was already known in the Regt for believing because he was an officer (used loosely, he was an OCdt), he had some authority. I tried many a time to have him realize he did not have any as yet, not until his commission. I had quite a time with him on his BMQ as his Crse O...

SSM took it quite well, actually. That is what experience teaches you: Mister Bloggins, says he, would you care to rephrase your request?

He stammered for a good minute before I could intervene (I was not busy laughing off to the side, but in an O Grp). We discussed it later.

He still hasn't really learned, to be honest, but he's getting better.

I hope.

For his sake.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2012)

If the SSM's initials are DM, well the OCdt in question lucked out it was him, knowing his calm (usually) disposition.


----------



## blackberet17 (3 Dec 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If the SSM's initials are DM, well the OCdt in question lucked out it was him, knowing his calm (usually) disposition.



They are DM. And he likes to fly? And yes, he did luck out. It would have been a different story, I think, if it HAD been the RSM...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (3 Dec 2012)

Pussycat's the both of 'em.  ;D


----------



## Sporadic E (10 Dec 2012)

The wearing of a uniform in public also depends on the weekly and monthly threat assessments. There have been several times I remember being briefed to come into work in civvies.


----------



## Loachman (12 Dec 2012)

Aaaahhh, yes - the CDS-of-the-time's knee-jerk reaction to the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington in 2001...

LFCA HQ was in leased accommodation in a commercial office building on Yonge Street just north of Finch back then.

I carried my uniform in from the parking lot across the road in a clear plastic dry-cleaning bag each day, thus following the letter of the edict, until it was cancelled.

One of the many attractive young female workers from one of the other businesses in the building remarked to a couple of us that day that they all felt much safer with us in the building.

"As you should", I replied, "Unless, of course, we become targets".

Her eyes widened dramatically after a brief pause.


----------



## Tank Troll (12 Dec 2012)

Sporadic E said:
			
		

> The wearing of a uniform in public also depends on the weekly and monthly threat assessments. There have been several times I remember being briefed to come into work in civvies.



I don`t ever remember being told to come to work in civis, though I do remember the 80s, early 90s being told not to go anywhere but home quick stop for gas and maybe buy some milk and such like at same place if your really need to and have stopped for gas already.


----------



## blackberet17 (12 Dec 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> One of the many attractive young female workers from one of the other businesses in the building remarked to a couple of us that day that they all felt much safer with us in the building.
> 
> "As you should", I replied, "Unless, of course, we become targets".
> 
> Her eyes widened dramatically after a brief pause.



 :rofl:

I shouldn't, but that was funny...


----------



## dapaterson (12 Dec 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Aaaahhh, yes - the CDS-of-the-time's knee-jerk reaction to the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington in 2001...
> 
> LFCA HQ was in leased accommodation in a commercial office building on Yonge Street just north of Finch back then.
> 
> I carried my uniform in from the parking lot across the road in a clear plastic dry-cleaning bag each day, thus following the letter of the edict, until it was cancelled.



I was in NDHQ.  "No uniforms to work" was the rule.  But you could travel in the downtown between DND buildings in uniform.

My home at the time was a downtown condo - literally a 5 minute walk to work - and between several DND buildings.  So, I could walk from my office past my home to meetings in uniform, but not from my home to the office in uniform.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (12 Dec 2012)

That makes perfect [military] sense!   ;D


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Dec 2012)

Back a _loooooong_ time ago, when I was stil a junior officer, people in NDHQ (and at the MOD in London) wore civilian clothes to work and at work, as a general rule. I'm not sure *why* that was the rule ~ there were all kinds of rumours. I seem to recall that there was a "London allowance" (I think it was called that in Ottawa, too :dunno: ) intended to cover wear and tear on civilian clothes. Once every couple of weeks or so, on either some schedule or whim, people wore uniform for a day. In my last military job (1990s), as the head honcho of a small, specialized directorate that was collocated with another government department, I told my folks that what they wore to work was, within reason (good taste), their business, but if people were going to wear civvies as a matter of routine then I expected to see a uniform once a week or so, just to make sure they had one and that it still looked good, etc. (I usually wore uniform because the general dress for my colleagues was jacket and tie and I preferred an open neck shirt with a sweater in winter for my own comfort (I hate ties!))


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Dec 2012)

Edward, some friends of mine who were posted to London once told me the civies to work issue was to reduce their target status vis-a-vis the IRA. I don't know if that's true, but it seems plausible enough.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Dec 2012)

Well the "rule" was in effect, in both London and Ottawa, in the early 1960s, for sure, and long before that, as far as I know; so I suspect the IRA was not the issue.


----------



## Old Sweat (12 Dec 2012)

The policy predated the latest round of IRA "troubles" as far as I can determine. CP Stacey mentioned it in his memoirs and he retired in the sixties. As I recall it in CFHQ circa 1971, each branch wore uniform one day a week. If someone was going to a meeting at another government department, they could wear civvies. The reason for the latter apparently was to avoid upsetting the delicate sensibilities of the public servants.

The policy was scrapped by Jadex, who believed quite correctly that there were a number of members who had not purchased the new CF uniform and in fact had no uniform whatsoever. We went to uniform four days a week and wore mufti on Fridays. This set off a massive spate of whining amongst the uniformless and others as well in the public at large (or at least those who wrote letters to the editor or appeared on man in the street interviews) re the militarization of the nation's capital.


----------



## dangerboy (13 Dec 2012)

I can remember in the mid 90's being called over the weekend and told that when I went to work on Monday I could not wear my uniform and when we did PT we could not wear regimental PT clothes.  So we fooled all the population of Winnipeg when our Pl of 30 men with short hair when for a run in formation.  There was no possible way that anyone could think they when we left the base for the run and came back to the base we could be in the military.  I am not sure the exact reason we were given the order but it did not last very long.


----------



## SigDelequa (5 Jan 2013)

Man... in the location where I live... south Texas, military members are not allowed to wear their uniform unless its to and from work. Border violence has erupted down here... and soldiers are constantly being targets for criminal organizations. Oh and the people in the far southern part of Texas hate all US military because they think we work with the US border patrol and are trying to send their illegal family back to Mexico lol. Every once in a while you will encounter an American citizen who calls you baby killer... or murderer... or an occasional Muslim calling you evil dirtbag or other names... but you dust it off your shoulders lol. 

I've had buddies who have been jumped before, and one or two shot also... but get shot, fire back lol. Get jumped, fight back. We wear our uniforms with pride and inflict fear when provoked lol.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Jan 2013)

OK...............next?


----------



## faivious (12 Apr 2015)

Good day,

I had a question regarding the current policy of the uniforms.
I am enrolling in the Canadian Force Reserves and this question was always at the back of my head.

I see Canadian Force members in public transportations, mall, food-court, street, etc wearing uniform (off-duty).

Is this allowed? I just wanted to clear it up because I will be commuting for my BMOQ reserves in Toronto for my weekend training and might run into a situation where I do not have civie clothes to switch into (possible rare occasion).

If it is allowed, what is the general stigma attached to it? 

Thank you!



Edit:

I found this article from Oct. 2014.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1629109/toronto-soldiers-clear-to-wear-uniforms-in-public-army-says/


----------



## Tibbson (12 Apr 2015)

They are more then likely travelling to or from duty, or in the case of food courts and such, on a meal break.


----------



## mariomike (12 Apr 2015)

CF Reserves Uniform Policy in Public (Toronto) 

In uniform in public? 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/13534.300.html

In public in Uniform...  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/104222.75.html

uniforms in the public  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/26650.125.html


----------



## The_Falcon (12 Apr 2015)

faivious said:
			
		

> Good day,
> 
> I had a question regarding the current policy of the uniforms.
> I am enrolling in the Canadian Force Reserves and this question was always at the back of my head.
> ...



If you are going to be on a course, your course staff, will clearly outline when, where and how you can wear your uniform in public, with a heavy emphasis you wear civilian clothes, so you don't make any mistakes, like drinking a coffee while walking down the street without headdress (as I have seen BMQ/BMOQ students do before).


----------



## Togakure (13 Apr 2015)

You can wear your uniform on your way to work or home from work. It's generally accepted that you can stop off somewhere to eat during the trip, but I wouldn't go for the full sit down restaurant thing. I used to regularly stop off at a Quiznos to grab a sandwich before I got to the armouries. The only time I've really seen it accepted for people to go for a full meal in uniform would be people who work full time, and usually on a lunch break or as an office event. 

And like Hatchet Man said, there's a few rules to commuting in uniform you need to know. You can't walk around while eating or drinking or smoking. If you're going to be eating or drinking or smoking while outside, you stand still with your headdress off - and then, in places where it would be 'socially acceptable' to do that. Smoke in smoking areas (you're in public in uniform at all, so don't break any bylaws). I wouldn't go up to a hot dog vender and then stand there eating with your headdress off. Might look weird. 

Also, no headphones, and don't walk around staring at your phone. 

Hope that helps!


----------



## Bzzliteyr (14 Apr 2015)

Remember that in uniform you represent the military you so proudly joined.

Would you rather: a. be seen in uniform dressed correctly ONCE you are taught how to maintain and wear it properly or;
b. wearing it incorrectly, badly reflecting on the CAF as a whole and possibly getting yourself in trouble whilst doing so?

I would personallly wait to learn about what's right and what's wrong. Ask your course staff for a digital copy of the Dress Regs "A-DH-265-000-AG-001" (about a 17MB file) and you can read about all the little nuances to become a better soldier.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Apr 2015)

37.  Reserve Force.  Members of the Reserve Force shall not wear uniform except when: a.  on duty, or  proceeding to  or from their place of duty;  b.  attending a military  function  or ceremony at which the wearing  of uniform  is appropriate; or c.  Reserve Force members on Class  C employment are  deemed  to be in  the Regular Force. See paragraph 36.


----------



## The_Falcon (19 Apr 2015)

Togakure said:
			
		

> Also, no headphones,



Actually headphones are ok in certain circumstances (like riding transit IIRC), that came around 2012, just before I got out.


----------



## Tireurelite (6 Mar 2018)

Hi guys, do military reservists have the right of wearing the military uniform in public like in the bus or while taking the subway? Like when you finish you service for the weekend and while going back home to keep your uniform, I’ve already saw someone with the uniform in the bus but it is legal?


----------



## brihard (6 Mar 2018)

Generally it is permitted to wear uniform while commuting to and from work, yes. Likely this won’t be allowed until you’re far enough into BMQ that you know how to dress yourself. I’ve got a lot of bus-miles under my belt in uniform...


----------



## Bzzliteyr (7 Mar 2018)

Tireurelite said:
			
		

> Hi guys, do military reservists have the right of wearing the military uniform in public like in the bus or while taking the subway? Like when you finish you service for the weekend and while going back home to keep your uniform, I’ve already saw someone with the uniform in the bus but it is legal?



What Brihard said. 

Also, remember that you represent the whole of the Canadian Armed Forces while in uniform and it you wear it badly, it reflects on the military. That being said, if you are confident enough on how to wear it and wear it properly, there are no issues. You might want to search the internet for the Canadian Forces Dress Regulation (CFP-265) and have a read of those, the more you know, the better!


----------



## KMS081991 (26 Apr 2018)

My question is, I am PRes and I sometimes want to time my commute so that I go to the public gym first and then to the armoury. 

Would it be wrong to wear my Cadpat and Headdress into the gym, change and lock my uniform in a locker for an hour of exercise, complete my exercise and change back into uniform and continue with commute?


----------



## Bzzliteyr (26 Apr 2018)

I'm not quite sure I see the reason for wearing the uniform to the gym.

Why can't you just wear your gym clothes to the gym, shower then change into your uniform?



			
				KMS081991 said:
			
		

> My question is, I am PRes and I sometimes want to time my commute so that I go to the public gym first and then to the armoury.
> 
> Would it be wrong to wear my Cadpat and Headdress into the gym, change and lock my uniform in a locker for an hour of exercise, complete my exercise and change back into uniform and continue with commute?


----------



## Remius (26 Apr 2018)

Just put your gym clothes on and stuff your uniform in your issued day pack.   Make sure you are wearing a course t-shirt with dog tags out.  You'll still achieve letting everyone know you are in the military without having to wear your uniform.  No shaving required either until you report in. 

 ;D

Disclaimer:  This is sarcasm and does not reflect my actual view or the views of this site.


----------



## KMS081991 (26 Apr 2018)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I'm not quite sure I see the reason for wearing the uniform to the gym.
> 
> Why can't you just wear your gym clothes to the gym, shower then change into your uniform?



Well since the gym is along the way to the armoury, I thought it would be advantageous to just not carry so many different clothing articles around. I would be already in my uniform, change to my civilian gym clothes and work out, then change back into my uniform and head toward the armoury. 

I understand your point as well.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (26 Apr 2018)

KMS081991 said:
			
		

> Well since the gym is along the way to the armoury, I thought it would be advantageous to just not carry so many different clothing articles around. I would be already in my uniform, change to my civilian gym clothes and work out, then change back into my uniform and head toward the armoury.
> 
> I understand your point as well.



I do that exact thing every morning. You're not carrying anything more if you head to the gym in your gym outfit, then change. 

From the dress regs (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-265/index-eng.asp): 

"19. “On duty”. As a general rule, for purposes of dress and appearance, a member is considered to be on duty:
a. when actively engaged in operations, training or administrative duties, either in accordance with specific orders or in accordance with established military routine or practice;
b. when attending a course or administrative function, either in accordance with specific orders or established routine or practice;
c. when participating in or attending any sport, recreational, social or other activity where military authorities require her/him to be there; or
d. when he/she is at a specific place, or doing a specific act, because of a military order.

37.Reserve Force (Class C excluded). Members of the Reserve Force shall not wear a uniform except when:
a.on duty, or proceeding to or from their place of duty;
b.attending a military function or ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate.
38.Proceeding to or from Place of Duty. Commanding Officers may order members of the Regular and Reserve Force to wear uniforms when proceeding to and from their place of duty where it is considered appropriate to do so in the circumstances, having regard to the custom and practice of the CAF."

I hope that helps with your decision.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (26 Apr 2018)

OP sounds like a Class A member so I would suggest that they do not wear the uniform prior to going to the gym as they are not really considered "on-duty" until they sign the pay sheet at the armoury.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (26 Apr 2018)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> OP sounds like a Class A member so I would suggest that they do not wear the uniform prior to going to the gym as they are not really considered "on-duty" until they sign the pay sheet at the armoury.



I would consider only the travel from the gym to the unit as "proceeding to or from their place of duty".


----------



## Stoker (26 Apr 2018)

KMS081991 said:
			
		

> Well since the gym is along the way to the armoury, I thought it would be advantageous to just not carry so many different clothing articles around. I would be already in my uniform, change to my civilian gym clothes and work out, then change back into my uniform and head toward the armoury.
> 
> I understand your point as well.



Wear your uniform to the gym and don't worry about it. There's nothing wrong with that at all.


----------



## KMS081991 (27 Apr 2018)

To close my issue, I decided if I do go to the gym, that I would not change into uniform until I was about to leave the gym and was enroute to the unit.

Thank you all for the assistance.


----------



## RocketScientist (10 Nov 2018)

I have two (pre-emptive) questions in the same vein. 

1. As a part-time reservist with a full-time civilian job, would it be permissible for me, _as part of my civilian job_, to wear my uniform when:
a) Visiting a Canadian Forces base 
b) Meeting with military personnel
c) Meeting with government officials

2. Is it permissible for me to add my military rank to my civilian job signature, for example,
   2nd Lieutenant ABCD, PEng, PMP
   Systems Engineer
   XYZ Corporation

Thank you


----------



## PuckChaser (10 Nov 2018)

If you're not on the clock or representing the CAF, it's totally inappropriate for you to do either of those things. Keep your civilian job separate from the CAF.


----------



## blacktriangle (10 Nov 2018)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> I have two (pre-emptive) questions in the same vein.
> 
> 1. As a part-time reservist with a full-time civilian job, would it be permissible for me, _as part of my civilian job_, to wear my uniform when:
> a) Visiting a Canadian Forces base
> ...



1. Are you on duty, going to clothing stores etc? If not, no!

2. I mean I’ve seen retired LCol (Retired) have that on their business card or profile, but no not in the way you seem to propose using it.

Also if I saw someone put on their civilian signature block that they were a 2Lt, I’d fall out of my chair laughing.

Hope that helps!


----------



## JesseWZ (10 Nov 2018)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> I have two (pre-emptive) questions in the same vein.
> 
> 1. As a part-time reservist with a full-time civilian job, would it be permissible for me, _as part of my civilian job_, to wear my uniform when:
> a) Visiting a Canadian Forces base
> ...



Oh God, please don't. 



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you're not on the clock or representing the CAF, it's totally inappropriate for you to do either of those things. Keep your civilian job separate from the CAF.



Also, if you don a uniform as part of your civilian job, in order to meet with government officials or visit a base - but you are actually representing the private sector, you're now in a pretty big conflict of interest. That's the kind of thing that can get contracts scuttled. You can either represent the CAF or your employer... not both.

What he said. Adding 2Lt will not add any gravitas to your signature block, and if someone with some TI and experience sees that, not only are you going to be in some doo-doo, you're also going to be laughed at.


----------



## RocketScientist (10 Nov 2018)

Welp, good thing I asked then! Don't want to be laughingstock, or, more importantly, misrepresent the CAF.
I don't quite get why that would be funny, though. I mean, you can write "Dr." on your signature without issue.


----------



## blacktriangle (10 Nov 2018)

Dr. and 2Lt are a far cry from each other. 

Once you get some time in, you will realize why no one cares if you are a 2Lt. 

Honestly, if you are a PEng, PMP Systems Eng I don't think need to inflate that anymore. Even if it were permitted, adding your very junior officer rank would only detract from your education and credentials.


----------



## JesseWZ (10 Nov 2018)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> Welp, good thing I asked then! Don't want to be laughingstock, or, more importantly, misrepresent the CAF.
> I don't quite get why that would be funny, though. I mean, you can write "Dr." on your signature without issue.



It's funny because Second Lieutenants are (usually) brand new officers with very little experience and training. It's like writing "bachelors student" on a business card as an official title. 
I get being new and being proud of your position and your choice to serve. Its an honorable profession, but don't let your exuberance cloud your judgement or stain the reputation of the CF. Your rank should really only ever be used when you're doing something on behalf of the CF.

Adding your rank to your signature block or a business card also puts you in an awkward position regarding who you represent. Is your business card representing your company or the CF? If it's your company, then you are misrepresenting yourself by adding your rank.

My business cards for work have my rank on them - as I am representing my unit and the CF when I hand them out. 

When I introduce myself to anyone outside of work (and even 95% of the people within my scope of work) I use my first name.


----------



## PuckChaser (10 Nov 2018)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> Welp, good thing I asked then! Don't want to be laughingstock, or, more importantly, misrepresent the CAF.
> I don't quite get why that would be funny, though. I mean, you can write "Dr." on your signature without issue.



That's because Dr. is an official recognized title that relates to an official post-nominal. Should you serve 12 years in the CAF and be awarded your Canadian Forces Decoration, you legimately can have "CD" after your name in your signature block at work and on your business cards in both the civilian and military world.

Here's a list in case you want to badge hunt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_post-nominal_letters_in_Canada


----------



## FJAG (10 Nov 2018)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> I have two (pre-emptive) questions in the same vein.
> 
> 1. As a part-time reservist with a full-time civilian job, would it be permissible for me, _as part of my civilian job_, to wear my uniform when: . . .
> a) Visiting a Canadian Forces base
> . . .



Here's one more point that you should be aware of. The moment that you put on the uniform, regardless of where you are or whether you're on duty or not, you become subject to the Code of Service Discipline by virtue of s 60(1)(c)(ii) of the National Defence Act. Being on a defence establishment (whether in uniform or not) also makes you subject to the CSD by virtue of s 60(1)(c)(viii).



> 60 (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:
> . . .
> (c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is
> . . .
> ...



https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/page-8.html#h-41

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike (10 Nov 2018)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> I mean, you can write "Dr." on your signature without issue.



More discussion here,

Proper Use of Post-Nominals  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/113923.0


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Nov 2018)

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> I have two (pre-emptive) questions in the same vein.
> 
> 1. As a part-time reservist with a full-time civilian job, would it be permissible for me, _as part of my civilian job_, to wear my uniform when:
> a) Visiting a Canadian Forces base
> ...



Have a read of post #453 on this page, a few up from yours...


----------



## RocketScientist (11 Nov 2018)

Thank you for the information, ladies and gentlemen. Obviously, I'm getting ahead of myself since I'm only just going through the recruitment process. If I do make it (hopefully), I will have to reign in my pride at being a member of the CAF, and not add my military credentials on my civilian signatures or business cards.


----------



## brihard (11 Nov 2018)

General rule of thumb in a military career, when in doubt, ask yourself “would doing this thing that I’m considering doing make me ‘that guy’?” If you’re gonna do something that would be a hallmark move of ‘that guy’, generally it’s best to refrain from being ‘that guy’.


----------



## dapaterson (11 Nov 2018)

Good judgement comes from experience.

Experience comes from bad judgement.


----------



## Calvillo (16 Apr 2019)

The Dress Instructions say:



> 37. Reserve Force (Class C excluded). Members of the Reserve Force shall not wear a uniform except when:
> a. on duty, or proceeding to or from their place of duty;
> b. attending a military function or ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate.



With that, can a Reservist not go to a photo studio to have her photograph in uniform taken for personal use?


----------



## mariomike (16 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> The Dress Instructions say:
> 
> With that, can a Reservist not go to a photo studio to have her photograph in uniform taken for personal use?



As always, your Chain of Command is your most trusted source of information.

You may wish to carry your uniform in a garment bag to and from home and the photo studio.


----------



## blacktriangle (16 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> The Dress Instructions say:
> 
> With that, can a Reservist not go to a photo studio to have her photograph in uniform taken for personal use?



...what kind of "personal use" ?


----------



## FJAG (16 Apr 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> As always, your Chain of Command is your most trusted source of information.
> 
> You may wish to carry your uniform in a garment bag to and from home and the photo studio.



Two good suggestions.

Remember the provisions of s. 60(1)(c)(ii) of the National Defence Act:



> 60 (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:
> ...
> (c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is
> ...
> ...



 :cheers:


----------



## Furniture (16 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> The Dress Instructions say:
> 
> With that, can a Reservist not go to a photo studio to have her photograph in uniform taken for personal use?



As suggested, carry your uniform in a garment bag and change at the studio. Less gawking from the public, and no real potential to do anything that can be seen as inappropriate while in uniform.


----------



## blacktriangle (16 Apr 2019)

Is there really any reason to have professional photos taken of oneself in uniform? Aside from the media photos we take before deploying, or if you are important enough to have your picture on a wall somewhere, I mean.


----------



## mariomike (16 Apr 2019)

DetectiveMcNulty said:
			
		

> Is there really any reason to have professional photos taken of oneself in uniform?



For Mom?


----------



## blacktriangle (16 Apr 2019)

Maybe you guys should stop recruiting children and then pictures for mom wouldn't be such an issue?


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Apr 2019)

DetectiveMcNulty said:
			
		

> Maybe you guys should stop recruiting children and then pictures for mom wouldn't be such an issue?



That’s enough.  No need for the personal attack. It was a reasonable question.

*Army.ca Staff*


----------



## Haggis (16 Apr 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> As suggested, carry your uniform in a garment bag and change at the studio. Less gawking from the public, and no real potential to do anything that can be seen as inappropriate while in uniform.



More importantly, it will protect you from sticky fingered kids and getting splashed by a speeding minivan that just dropped off those same kids.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> For Mom?



My mom would've loved a studio photo of me in my DEU, but they were not cheap to get back then.  Sadly she passed away many years before I reached a rank where such photos were required and provided by the CAF.


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## mariomike (16 Apr 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> My mom would've loved a studio photo of me in my DEU, but they were not cheap to get back then.  Sadly she passed away many years before I reached a rank where such photos were required and provided by the CAF.



I was serious when I asked that. Moms love photos of their kids. 

I joined the PRes when I was 16. My parents took photos of me in the old RCASC battledress, and dress uniform.

Sorry to hear about your mother. Dad passed away, but Mom is still going strong.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (16 Apr 2019)

There is more than Mom's who like pictures.

My wife and I (both serving members - that's where we met) and her brothers (3 of them) all served in the Navy. obviously, we all wanted pictures in uniform, separate and together, from professional photographers for our own sake.

Nothing wrong with that. We did, and I must say they are an item of great interest to our children.


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## FSTO (17 Apr 2019)

I got some professional photos taken right after I was commissioned. My mom has one framed and it sits with all the other family photos in her condo.

I still have copies in a photo album. God damn I was skinny and my hair was a golden blond back then!  :'(


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## Haggis (17 Apr 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Sorry to hear about your mother. Dad passed away, but Mom is still going strong.



Thanks.  My mom passed away while I was deployed in 2004.  My last "family" photo with her was taken while on HLTA on New Year's Eve 2003.  She was very proud of my service but wasn't around to see my promotion to CWO or subsequent commissioning. My dad was a Second World War Canadian Guards junior NCO.  Not sure how my commissioning would've been accepted by him.  ;D


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## RocketRichard (17 Apr 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Thanks.  My mom passed away while I was deployed in 2004.  My last "family" photo with her was taken while on HLTA on New Year's Eve 2003.  She was very proud of my service but wasn't around to see my promotion to CWO or subsequent commissioning. My dad was a Second World War Canadian Guards junior NCO.  Not sure how my commissioning would've been accepted by him.  ;D


My parents both were NCO’s. Both still take the piss for me becoming an officer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blacktriangle (17 Apr 2019)

I apologize to anyone I offended with my inappropriate comment. 

However, as someone that also signed up to the PRes at 16, I stand by my comments that no one should be eligible for military service until they reach the age of majority (and I don't think anyone under 25 should deploy) I have good reason to feel this way, but it was not the right place to voice my concerns.

Haggis -


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## mariomike (17 Apr 2019)

DetectiveMcNulty said:
			
		

> , I stand by my comments that no one should be eligible for military service until they reach the age of majority



You can join the PRes at age 16. But, don't deploy until age 18.

Age Limits to Join  
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/12904.250
31 pages.


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## blacktriangle (17 Apr 2019)

Mariomike...I'm well aware of that. You are still being indoctrinated at age 16. That makes no sense to me.

I stand by 18-21 to join, 25 to deploy. 

Edited to add: I'm now getting docked milpoints for politely sharing my view on something. Apparently free speech is "aggressive". I will no longer be posting on this site. Thank you to Mike and army.ca for all the years of good reading and the good people I met on this site.


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## mariomike (17 Apr 2019)

DetectiveMcNulty said:
			
		

> Mariomike...I'm well aware of that. You are still being indoctrinated at age 16. That makes no sense to me.



But, at least in my experience and opinion, that indoctrination was all positive. 

I loved being an MSE Op in the PRes.


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## CombatDoc (17 Apr 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> The Dress Instructions say:
> 
> With that, can a Reservist not go to a photo studio to have her photograph in uniform taken for personal use?


Sheesh, the amount of churn over this simple question is amazing! Calvillo - if you want a photo of you in uniform for your family or friends, do what MM/Furniture said (take your uniform to the studio in a garment bag, change, and change back to civies afterwards) and have at ‘er.


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## Rifleman62 (17 Apr 2019)

Now what about the poster getting married in uniform with "moving" pictures and stills?


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## mariomike (17 Apr 2019)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Now what about the poster getting married in uniform with "moving" pictures and stills?



For reference to the discussion,

The Military Wedding Superthread- merged 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/1366/post-15799.html#msg15799
7 pages.



			
				DetectiveMcNulty said:
			
		

> I stand by 18-21 to join, 25 to deploy.



I guess it would depend on how desperate they were for trained wo/manpower during wartime?

My dad joined the RCN in 1943 when he was 17. Went into action when he was 18. His brother joined the RCAF in 1941 when he was 18. KIA over France in 1944.

My grandparents did not have a studio photo of my uncle in his uniform. Just informal snapshots. They asked him to get one, but apparently, he never got around to it. When he went MIA, they insisted my father go to a photo studio on the Atlantic coast in his uniform. 

During the war, if you wanted a studio quality photo, you had to go own your own. The CAF just did "mug-shots" for your personnel record. At least, that's what I understand.


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## Pusser (18 Apr 2019)

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> Sheesh, the amount of churn over this simple question is amazing! Calvillo - if you want a photo of you in uniform for your family or friends, do what MM/Furniture said (take your uniform to the studio in a garment bag, change, and change back to civies afterwards) and have at ‘er.



Yes, people are getting all worked up over something very innocuous.  The regulations concerning wearing uniforms in public are all about protecting the CAF image and preventing abuse.  We don't want to see folks in uniform getting into bar fights, but moving between Point A and Point B at whatever time, for whatever legitimate reason is fine.  Getting a photo done is a legitimate activity, whether regular/reserve or on paid service or not.  If you want to get a photo done, go for it.  If it makes sense to carry your uniform in a garment bag, do it.  If it makes more sense to simply wear it, that's OK too.

Relax.  It's not that big a deal.


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## Jarnhamar (18 Apr 2019)

[quote author=DetectiveMcNulty] I will no longer be posting on this site. Thank you to Mike and army.ca for all the years of good reading and the good people I met on this site.


[/quote]

I think you should stay, and I'm actually super smart about these things.


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## RocketRichard (18 Apr 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I think you should stay, and I'm actually super smart about these things.


Concur and can confirm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Loachman (20 Apr 2019)

DetectiveMcNulty said:
			
		

> I stand by 18-21 to join, 25 to deploy.



That would have saved us a lot of money and training time in our Second World War effort.


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## mariomike (20 Apr 2019)

They would have been ready to ship overseas around 1946.


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## Calvillo (12 May 2019)

Hello,

I have another case. My wife works in a company that sells stuff. Not for public retails but for contractors. Her boss the Location Manager, is apparently a CIC Officer. I believe he is the CO or XO of his unit. The thing is, during the day of the week where he has cadets in the evening he just wears his uniform to the office. So there he is, talking to clients or doing staff meeting in his day job wearing his no. 3B or 3C.

Is that in any way appropriate? I really do not want to mind anybody's business and I do not want my wife to jeopardize her job there.


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## mariomike (12 May 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> I do not want my wife to jeopardize her job there.



I'm sure some will promptly explain the Rules. 

But, when it comes to your full-time meal ticket, my three words of advice would be: Don't make waves.


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## Nfld Sapper (12 May 2019)

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I have another case. My wife works in a company that sells stuff. Not for public retails but for contractors. Her boss the Location Manager, is apparently a CIC Officer. I believe he is the CO or XO of his unit. The thing is, during the day of the week where he has cadets in the evening he just wears his uniform to the office. So there he is, talking to clients or doing staff meeting in his day job wearing his no. 3B or 3C.
> 
> Is that in any way appropriate? I really do not want to mind anybody's business and I do not want my wife to jeopardize her job there.



IMHO it is wrong and that person is just lazy...


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## ModlrMike (12 May 2019)

No, it is not appropriate.

Chap 2, Sect 1, para 35:

"Reserve Force (Class C excluded). Members of the Reserve Force shall not wear a uniform except when:

    on duty, or proceeding to or from their place of duty;
    attending a military function or ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate."


As the CIC is a sub component of the Reserves, the above rules would apply. Note the word shall; as in not optional. Further, considering that when wearing the uniform, Reserve members are subject to the Code of Service Discipline, this member has exposed himself to potential liability under Sect 83 of the NDA, if not more. A Reserve member does not have to be on duty to be subject to the CSD.


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## Gunplumber (12 May 2019)

Just print out the regulation and leave it taped to the office door when he's not around. Or notify the cadet headquarters and I'm sure it will work its way down.


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## dh101 (25 Nov 2019)

If a regular force member is attending a Canadian Citizenship ceremony as a guest of someone getting their citizenship, are they authorized to wear their dress uniform, and if so, would you agree or disagree that it would be appropriate attire for such an event, or should they wear business suit type attire? Thanks


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## mariomike (25 Nov 2019)

dh101 said:
			
		

> If a regular force member is attending a Canadian Citizenship ceremony as a guest of someone getting their citizenship, are they authorized to wear their dress uniform, and if so, would you agree or disagree that it would be appropriate attire for such an event, or should they wear business suit type attire? Thanks



For reference to the discussion,



> Dress code for citizenship ceremonies
> 
> Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members and veterans
> 
> ...


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## dh101 (25 Nov 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> For reference to the discussion,



Great, thank-you very much for clarification. I did look for information regarding the ceremonies but I guess I should have looked for the "dress code".
After reading that it looks like a CF member attending is actually obligated to wear DEU 1A.

Thanks again


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## mariomike (25 Nov 2019)

dh101 said:
			
		

> Great, thank-you very much for clarification.



You are welcome.


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Nov 2019)

dh101 said:
			
		

> Great, thank-you very much for clarification. I did look for information regarding the ceremonies but I guess I should have looked for the "dress code".
> After reading that it looks like a CF member attending is actually obligated to wear DEU 1A.
> 
> Thanks again



No, you would not be (or should not be) so obligated.  That direction is from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. and last I checked they have no authority to order any serving soldier to do anything.  I suspect that the dress code direction on their site goes hand in hand with another aspect of their ceremony planning "Working with the Canadian Armed Forces members and veterans".



> All efforts should be made to ensure that an active Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) member or a veteran is in attendance at all citizenship ceremonies, and certainly at all enhanced ceremonies where a platform party or other special guests are in attendance. Their presence is one way to underline the importance of the rights and responsibilities of citizenship and to pay tribute to men and women in uniform. The involvement of active serving CAF members and veterans exemplifies active citizenship.
> 
> Procedure
> 
> ...



If one was attending the ceremony as a guest of someone who was becoming a citizen then one would not per se be participating in the manner as envisaged by Citizenship Canada.  However, even if one was not participating, there should be no reason why the wearing of uniform would be inappropriate especially if your host (the one who invited you) would appreciate it that you did so.  If you are going to be there anyway, it may be an opportunity to become the "CAF member taking part in the ceremony".


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## pitamsingh (11 Feb 2020)

Hello, 

I am wondering what the regs are for wearing a uniform to a civilian funeral home, 

When do I wear the Headdress and when is it removed ?

Thanks


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## mariomike (11 Feb 2020)

pitamsingh said:
			
		

> I am wondering what the regs are for wearing a uniform to a civilian funeral home,



See also,

Wearing uniform to a funeral,
https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&sxsrf=ACYBGNTs434_tSFefpMlfLv6xjw32V1piA%3A1581460014482&ei=LipDXq6GHcy3tQa4t6-YBg&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+uniform+funeral&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+uniform+funeral&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..44143...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.nrC8nqnviEQ&ved=0ahUKEwiu1Y7TxcrnAhXMW80KHbjbC2MQ4dUDCAo#spf=1581460060532

funeral and uniform question...  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/47830.0

Wear of Uniform at Civilian Funeral 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/110881.0

Funeral etiquette?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/67651.0

etc...


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Feb 2020)

pitamsingh said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I am wondering what the regs are for wearing a uniform to a civilian funeral home,
> 
> ...



Is there a reason to wear it?  Are you Regs or Reserve?


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## Kilted (11 Feb 2020)

I have worn my uniform in a funeral home for both a regimental funeral and a family funeral. I took my headdress off for both. For the family funeral I got permission from my chain of command that would normally be submitted in memo format, however I got the phone call when I was with my chain of command right before Christmas stand down. So they gave me permission right there.


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## jk_army07 (11 Nov 2020)

Question for you folks::

I just released from the CAF after 12 years. I did 8 years with the Guns (2007-2015) and 4 years with the Log Branch (2015-2019). Now that I’m released, am I allowed to wear my Arty Cap Badge, even though I technically released as a Log? Not that I don’t have pride in the Log Branch or anything, it’s just that my heart has always been with the Guns and I’ve remained close to my Regimental Family ever since I operationally left the trade.


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## winds_13 (11 Nov 2020)

"Once a gunner, always a gunner"


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## PuckChaser (11 Nov 2020)

You earned that capbadge, wear it with pride.


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