# "I Had Soldiers Break into Tears" says ombudsman



## scm77 (29 Nov 2004)

Sorry if this shoud go in another section. :-[

'I had soldiers break into tears'

BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU

OTTAWA - Canada's troops patrolling war-torn Kabul have sent a sobering message home â â€ "we are overtasked, overburdened and worn out."

The messenger, military ombudsman André Marin, is adding his voice to the alarm after spending two days with the soldiers last week.

"In the short period I was there I saw them very focused, motivated to do their job but they're just plain exhausted and overrun by the burden," Marin told the Toronto Star in his first interview following his visit.

Cutbacks to the Canadian contingent have meant that the soldiers are doing double duty and working flat-out, Marin said.

Marin said everyone is feeling the load. However two Edmonton-based units in particular are feeling the pinch â â€ the Lord Strathcona's Horse regiment, which is doing reconnaissance, and the 1st Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, which provides the force protection.

Troops call it the "plug and play soldier" â â€ working 10 hours in one job and then being "plugged" in somewhere else for another shift to fill in the staffing gaps.

"It's taking its toll on these people. I saw it first-hand," said Marin, who has served as ombudsman since 1998.

"I had two soldiers break into tears as they were explaining what they were doing. I had never seen that before.

``One of my jobs is to be a voice for the soldiers and what I heard very loudly is ... this is a red flag that they wanted me to carry back."

The situation is so serious that Marin says it's essential that commanders consider a "formal decompression" period for this rotation of troops to give them time to unwind before they're returned home to Canada and their families in February.

Canada cut its troop strength in Afghanistan to 700 from 2,000 in August to give the overstretched army a breather, Gen. Ray Henault, chief of defence staff, said at the time.

But Marin suggested those cuts went too far and says that while the rest of the army recuperates, the soldiers in Afghanistan are paying the price.

"They've gone too far into the withdrawal and they feel that they're left to carry an enormous load," Marin said.

Their mission is to provide reconnaissance and surveillance for the International Security Assistance Force that is helping to keep the peace in the Afghan capital.

It was Marin's second trip to Kabul â â€ his third to Afghanistan â â€ and he says he was struck by the change.

This time, despite finding a first-rate camp, good food, "top-of-line" equipment and a "rock-solid" organization, he said the morale is being taxed by the workload.

"I was really struck and moved by the enormous weight that's on their shoulders right now."

Marin said two problems are to blame. First, three reconnaissance platoons assigned to surveillance duties have been given the work of four.

"The consensus that they would like to see the reconnaissance team operate at its normal four-platoon size," he said.

Second, while Canadians have vacated much of Camp Julien for use by troops from other nations, the smaller force still has the big job of running the base.

Marin cited the example of clerks in the administration section, who have been working 10-hour shifts, seven days a week.

"They do a normal shift and then, after that, they're reassigned to other sections such as to provide security for the base, manning the gates. ... This is added to their normal days," Marin said, noting that the second shift can stretch up to six hours.

The complaints, aired during town hall meetings and one-on-one chats, go far beyond the usual gripes of overwork, Marin said. And they cut across all ranks, from private right up the chain of command.

Marin also visited the secret Canadian base in the Middle East region that's used as a transit and rest stop for troops headed to and from Kabul. Military personnel there told him how the Canadian troops seem like "zombies" when they arrive from Kabul for their occasional breaks.

Marin said he's not worried the staffing shortage will cause safety concerns because they're "professional soldiers, dedicated to their job."

But he's deeply worried that the stress will show itself when they return home in February. That's why he says it's essential that commanders consider "decompression" time for the troops.

He's also urging military commanders to review the staffing plan for the next rotation of soldiers, due to ship out in February from CFB Petawawa.

Marin says he was so concerned about what he saw in Kabul that he's booked a meeting tomorrow with Brig-Gen. Marc Caron, assistant chief of land staff, who is planning to visit Afghanistan this month.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1101682208362&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&DPL=JvsODSH7Aw0u%2bwoRO%2bYKDSblFxAk%2bwoVO%2bYODSbhFxAg%2bwkRO%2bUPDSXiFxMh%2bwkZO%2bUCDSTmFxIk%2bw8RO%2bMKDSPkFxUj%2bw8UO%2bMNDSPgFxUv%2bw8YO%2bILDSLkFxQh1w%3d%3d&tacodalogin=yes


----------



## Gunner (29 Nov 2004)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/11/29/julien-troops-exhausted041129.html


----------



## Franko (29 Nov 2004)

Is it really any wonder?

Poor clerks.....having to work a 16 hour day  :'(

Regards


----------



## Ammogod (29 Nov 2004)

Is it really any wonder?

Poor clerks.....having to work a 16 hour day  

WHATS UP WITH THAT, WE ARE PART OF A TEAM, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO NOT GET FEED, OR YOUR PAY IS FU*KED BECAUSE SOME POOR CLERK IS NOT THERE, Bud I have been on both sides, 7 years in the combat arms and 14 in support trade, long after the combat arms are home and in bed the support trades are working there a** off, so the next time you want to slag the support trades remember its not the infantry that orders stock, or gets the bullets to theater, or makes sure there is money in your acct.......

I would expect more from a Sr member on this site


----------



## Gunnar (29 Nov 2004)

Relax AG.  I think it was more a commentary on....well, you don't hear the expression "Crying like a soldier" very often.

We all know an army marches on its stomach, and with the pay wagons.


----------



## Franko (29 Nov 2004)

Thanks Gunnar for the clarity I lacked....  

Thought that everone's "Sarcasm Detector" would have gone off  ;D

Geeeesh....  :

Regards


----------



## Matt_Fisher (29 Nov 2004)

I wonder what the workday was like for the boys at Vimy Ridge, Ortona or Kapyong?


----------



## Franko (29 Nov 2004)

Or in your Corp's history.....

Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Phillipines.....

Regards


----------



## Michael Dorosh (29 Nov 2004)

I have no doubt that this is well-intentioned propaganda.

I doubt anyone was really in tears, but what will the public really relate to?  Canadian soldiers do what they're told, but it brings to mind a quote from the DIEPPE miniseries.

General Crerar "Your men will follow you in with peashooters, Ham."

General Roberts "But do they have to?"

I have no doubt the troops in Kabul will soldier as expected under adverse conditions; my question would be the same as the actor playing Hamilton Roberts.

If this bit of propaganda makes the 5000 man "peacekeeping" brigade a reality, so much the better.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (29 Nov 2004)

I'll tell you one thing for certain.   I've never met a Marine clerk that won't dig their own fighting hole, shoot a man dead at 500 yards with iron sight,   be competent on a security patrol and know which way to place a Claymore.

I understand firsthand how a deployment can be a real bag-drive, but what these people are bitching about is pretty weak.   10 hour days behind a desk or computer screen?   Then 6 hours on sentry?   You're still getting 8 hours sleep.   You've got fresh, hot meals.   You've got access all day in the orderly room to email and DSN lines to call home.   What's to complain about?

Pathetic.


----------



## Franko (29 Nov 2004)

Good rebuttal Matt.....

Perhapse all this "Tired Soldiers" news will get the BG(-) brought back up to proper size?

It has been noted that the BG is undersized....especially on the Recce side, very common knowledge.

On Roto 0 the Sqn was down sized from a full Sqn to two 7 car troops. No Assault Troop, Adm Troop, or 3rd troop to get the job done.

Talk about stretching the guys a bit thin.

Latest scuttlebutt is the BG will be brought up to full size for Roto 4 and on, seeing as how Bosnia is pretty much shut down (compared to this time last year)

We'll have to wait and see.

Regards


----------



## bossi (29 Nov 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> ... I doubt anyone was really in tears ...



Care to bet some money on that?


----------



## Franko (29 Nov 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> Care to bet some money on that?



Care to share some inside info?   

Sounds like you have some  

Regards


----------



## Slim (29 Nov 2004)

> I would expect more from a Sr member on this site



Bud, I think you need to slow down and read more, speak less, before you go off on another member of this site...Especially that one who has been there and done the job...

Take this for what its worth!

Slim


----------



## Gunner (29 Nov 2004)

I would suggest you take the article with a grain of salt.   Moreover, the Ombudsman has his own agenda that he is pursuing.      



> Perhapse all this "Tired Soldiers" news will get the BG(-) brought back up to proper size?   It has been noted that the BG is undersized....especially on the Recce side, very common knowledge.   On Roto 0 the Sqn was down sized from a full Sqn to two 7 car troops. No Assault Troop, Adm Troop, or 3rd troop to get the job done.   Talk about stretching the guys a bit thin.   Latest scuttlebutt is the BG will be brought up to full size for Roto 4 and on, seeing as how Bosnia is pretty much shut down (compared to this time last year)



Franko, the recce sqn added another 5 car troop for Roto 2 (3 tps - 15 Coyote) and is much more capable than the sqn deployed on Roto 0 and 1.   They are doing some stellar work which was to be expected.   I meant to ask, I thought a doctrinal coyote troop was 5 cars vice 7?    ???   I'm sure someone told me that Roto 1 just had two 5 car troops.

Please note that there isn't a BG in theatre rather it is the embodiment of the "plug and play" approach to deployments.   Recce Sqn augmetented by an infantry recce platoon, B Coy, 1 PPCLI (-) as force protection, an NSE based on 1 Svc Bn, HSS Coy based on 1 Fd Amb, an Engr Sqn from 1 CER are the main elements of Task Force Kabul located in Camp Julien.   

Finally, unless things have changed in the last week there are no major TO&E revisions for Roto 3.

Cheers,


----------



## Armymedic (29 Nov 2004)

It hasn't, dispite the reports from the recce and the TF Comd campaining to increse the numbers of 031 for all roles, medical staff, and support.

I know for a fact that the 3rd platoon for D&S has been denied, as well as the request for additional medics for the dismounted tasks.

And I believe that people can be brought to tears due to the fustration of attempting to do a high priority, high stress role like camp security properly when your tired, cold and homesick, and your sect is 1-2 pers undermanned due to leave and/or illness.

Trust me when I say I have seen grown men and good soldiers cry for less.......


----------



## Matt_Fisher (29 Nov 2004)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> And I believe that people can be brought to tears due to the fustration of attempting to do a high priority, high stress role like camp security properly when your tired, cold and homesick, and your sect is 1-2 pers undermanned due to leave and/or illness.
> 
> Trust me when I say I have seen grown men and good soldiers cry for less.......



*Rant Mode ON*
You can all call me an inconsiderate cold jackass for saying this, but WTF?   As long as your not getting shot at, it's a good day in my books.  8 hours sleep, fresh rats, showers, email and telephone access is gravy.

I'm interested to see what anybody who was with the 3VP Battlegroup in 2002 in Afghanistan or the CAR Battlegroup in Somalia in 1993 have to say about this. 
*Rant Mode OFF*


----------



## bossi (29 Nov 2004)

Everybody has their own "breaking point".
Show some compassion for fellow soldiers and back off.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Nov 2004)

I don't know.  I am watching more "Sabre Sqn" guys getting cut and more clerks and officers added.  Now to take Matts side a little, our clerks are not at all like Marine clerks.  Marines are riflemen first, while our support trades are not.  Therein lies the problem.

GW


----------



## SeaKingTacco (29 Nov 2004)

Not sure what is actually going on in Afghanistan right now, but for some perspective, onboard a ship at sea a typical watchkeeper does 12 hours on watch every 24 hours (in a 1-in-2 watch routine) and then frequently does all of the other departmental work on top of the that.   A routine day is often 16-18 hours.   Even as member of the air department (where legend holds that we sleep 18 hours a day or more   ) my typical day at sea more often than not ran 14-16 hours, which is as much as I am legally allowed to do (the Air Force, Thank God, has crew rest rules- the Navy does not).   This is fairly normal peacetime sailing routine...

My point?   I have no doubt that soldiers actually cried in front of the budman.   I am left wondering what the real issue was.   Was it really working a 16 hour day?   Or is there something else that requires addressing in the lives of these soldiers?   I guess only the chain of command on the ground can really know for sure...

Cheers


----------



## Armymedic (29 Nov 2004)

I believe SeaKingTacco has hit it on the head,

Its all relative...

Take the average medic, supply tech, clerk, infantryman, etc. Matters not the trade or the job.

Here in Canada we work a 8hr day (0730-1600), 5 days a week, in a secure environment, where driving thru rush hour may be your biggest danger. Even if its a bit stressfull we can go home or get away from work someway, somehow.

Now your thrust into an environment, away from home, away from your stress relief...where everyone has told you that people want to kill you and you have to be alert at all times. You are in a position that demands your full attention for 10 hrs a day, and with no days off or mornings to just lay in bed.....

and your just getting by, functioning effectively...but now this week, you on camp security for an additional 6 hrs. Now you don't have that time to decompress slightly every day. Heck you just barely got time to put your laundry in, shower, and sleep before going the next day. :-\

Now add in getting "Mugged" or "Gapped" for the smallest detail which was passed in O gp the night before while you were on shift. 

And its Melfaquine night, and you can't sleep..... :boring:


Yeah, they aren't getting shot at, yeah, they are getting paid good money...

But like Bossi said, and I will reemphasize, everyone has their breaking point. 

And after all if the moneys so good...

How come so many do not want to go back? :-\


----------



## the 48th regulator (29 Nov 2004)

took me close to ten years to realize I was crying...

Yep I would have called these cats weak for weeping, would have said to suck it up too.

but times are a different.     As MB said; 

show some f***ing compassion, (well not in the exact words, i have embellished)

Otherwise I will make you cry. . . .

hehehehe 

tess


----------



## Acorn (29 Nov 2004)

Then we are failing in training (what a surprise). We need to identify people who can't take the pace of operations in training, and then suggest they seek other employment if they can't take it.

I cracked in training, and I think I'm better for it (for some strange reason my sgt and pl sgt thought I should carry on.) I did 14-16 hour days in Bosnia, with days off being rare (I wasn't with a Cdn BG, so no mandated day off every week) for six months. I returned to Canada grinding my teeth and stressed out, but I somehow soldiered on.

I think part of our problem is offered expectations: we tell people that ops are stressful and we have a high level of operational stress. So we get what we expect. I now think I fell victim to that attitude myself a few years ago.

We need to strike the balance between the "cult of muscular Christianity" and the "cult of entitlement."

Yeah, some soldiers will break into tears. Should be no shame in that. But where does the group hug end, and the strength of character begin?

Acorn


----------



## McG (29 Nov 2004)

Franko said:
			
		

> It has been noted that the BG is undersized....especially on the Recce side, very common knowledge.


It is not a BG.  It is a recce squadron with about 700 other soldiers deployed to support it.


----------



## muskrat89 (29 Nov 2004)

Well, as someone from wayyyy outside looking in, and acknowledging I have NO operational experience....

Growing up an idealist, I *have* been moved to tears in both military life, and in civilian life - not by hardships, but rather frustration. In my experience at least, "sucking it up" or "ignoring the pain" were always far easier than "fixing the system" or living with the flaws that no one had the will and/or power to fix.....

The idiocies of "the system" that many of us gripe about daily (no political will or funding, no mandate, etc) - today's serving soldiers are bearing the brunt of it. Many, it seems, without the years' experience of developing "coping mechanisms".....

I think maybe seaking tacco was onto something....there is more here than meets the eye


----------



## SeaKingTacco (29 Nov 2004)

> We need to strike the balance between the "cult of muscular Christianity" and the "cult of entitlement."



Acorn- It is an interesting idea. I still don't know that I know the right balance to strike, even after 19 years in the mob.   I have seen stressful situations where people that I didn't think had what it takes rise to the challenge and do truly outstanding things.   I have seen much more "talented" individuals perform surprisingly poorly.   I have surprised myself both good and bad.   I have survived a few situations that nearly cracked me and learned to be better for the experience.   I have also reacted badly to stress and done some really stupid things post-deployment because of it.

I guess I'm beginning to learn that I am human and so are those around me.   All of us, regardless of training, experience or motivation are going to react differently to stress.   Should we berate those who cry?   In my opinion- no.   Should they be coddled?   Probably not.   Should you lend a fellow soldier an ear so that they can unload their feelings and then try to help them regain perspective?   Amen.

I'm still trying to put myself in the headspace of the Ombudsman- he flies to Kabul, spends two nights on the ground, sees a couple of soldiers cry and alarm bells go off in his head, so he convenes a press conference.   Mind you he has never (to my knowledge) spent any time in uniform getting dirty so that he has no real way of putting what he has just seen into any form of perspective...and we get another scandal du jour.

Maybe I'm being unfair to the Ombudsman.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (30 Nov 2004)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm being unfair to the Ombudsman.



I think you're reflecting what it is the media does in this country.  "investigative" my ass.   Not to cut down the soldiers, but this is what I meant with my initial disbelief.  Any little thing that can be taken and blown out of proportion to feed somebody's agenda, will be.   That can be good, that can be bad, no idea what is what in this case (very enlightening reading the comments of those who have been there, done that however).  But I place little faith in anything that gets posted on here from a newspaper or news website.  It almost never jives with what those on the ground are saying.


----------



## Mortar guy (30 Nov 2004)

> Now add in getting "Mugged" or "Gapped" for the smallest detail which was passed in O gp the night before while you were on shift.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I was only in Julien for two weeks and I got Gapped!!!! I was sitting in the NCE tent at about 20:00 listening to my discman in a room full of guys with headphones on their head watching DVDs on their computers. The Gapper comes in and says: "you can't do that, sir, it's illegal". Headphones? Illegal? Anyway, it was kind of a rite of passage! I nearly cried.....  :crybaby:

I remember working 14-20 hours days (20 only if I was Duty O) in Kosovo for three months straight before I went on R&R. While I was stressed, I was nowhere near crying! I just went to the gym or played floor hockey to burn off the tension.

MG


----------



## bossi (30 Nov 2004)

Mortar guy said:
			
		

> ... getting "Mugged" or "Gapped" ...



Yup - definitely a "right of passage" (I was in Camp Warehouse, and friends of mine would go down to Julien looking for the Mugster/Gapster ... as luck would have it, I never got caught ...).
Funny, though, that the RSM 3 RCR and Bde SM were never mocked like this ... hmmm ...
(kinda makes ya wonder what they were doing right ... in contrast to ...)

Anyway - a propos to the topic of this thread, thought I'd post a link for the latest edition of Dispatches
(and, as my Int friends taught me ... there's no such thing as "merely a coincidence" ...)

STRESS INJURY AND OPERATIONAL DEPLOYMENTS


----------



## Mortar guy (30 Nov 2004)

Totally off topic but: Bde SM Ford was the nicest CWO I ever met! Great guy. That may explain why morale at Warehouse was so much better than Julien.  ??? 

MG


----------



## Recce41 (30 Nov 2004)

The new troops will be 8 car troops:
   2 Coyote x 3 Patrols of Coyotes
   1 Tp ldr patrol, 1 UAV veh, 1 Anti Armr veh?/LAV III


----------



## Franko (30 Nov 2004)

MCG said:
			
		

> It is not a BG.   It is a recce squadron with about 700 other soldiers deployed to support it.



If you look a bit closer I said.....





> Perhapse all this "Tired Soldiers" news will get the BG(-) brought back up to proper size?



See the little (-) ? That means it is smaller than a BG....Not a BG at all.

My point is it should and hopefully will be brought up to proper size to perform the ops it does with no "Plug and play" going on.

Regards


----------



## McG (30 Nov 2004)

It is not even BG(-).  It is a Recce Sqn with an exorbitant amount of Sp.


----------



## Bograt (30 Nov 2004)

Isn't "Plug and Play" a Windows 95 feature. I was under the impression that we were still using 3.1. 

Back on topic, it appears to me that the military is getting a lot of press coverage lately- all supporting large capital investments, and troop increase. Do you think that the PMO is reading the papers? What do you think the military will look like in the next 15 years?


----------



## rounder (30 Nov 2004)

> And I believe that people can be brought to tears due to the fustration of attempting to do a high priority, high stress role like camp security properly when your tired, cold and homesick, and your sect is 1-2 pers undermanned due to leave and/or illness.
> 
> Trust me when I say I have seen grown men and good soldiers cry for less.......




   That's really too bad. I feel bad for those people. However, if they can't take it (for whatever reason) they should come home immediately as to not become a threat to others. Now, if we're talking about the lack of numbers for the Roto's... well I know of many reservists ITCHING to go. USE US... ABUSE US... BEAT US... PUT US ON A 10HR PATROL.... AND WE'LL GLADLY DO A CAMP SECURITY SHIFT AFTER THAT.... WE WILL GO!!!!!


----------



## foerestedwarrior (30 Nov 2004)

I am pretty sure "plug and pray" came out in windows 98....... :-\

I agree that their are ALOT of reservists that want to go, my unit had a mitfull of poepl turned away from the tour going over in feb.

About the tears thing, I have no operational experiance, but i feel that the op. tempo may just be such a system shock to their body, that it is messing with them. this is speculation, so take it as you will.


----------



## Franko (30 Nov 2004)

> ... well I know of many reservists ITCHING to go. USE US... ABUSE US... BEAT US... PUT US ON A 10HR PATROL.... AND WE'LL GLADLY DO A CAMP SECURITY SHIFT AFTER THAT.... WE WILL GO!!!!!



They are the one's who normally have problems afterward, due to not having the support systems in place for re-intergration.

Not only that, it takes a while to get the reserves up to snuff for Roto's. The one we took for Roto 13 had so many problems a Capt (who will remain nameless) was fired for being a sack 'o poo. There were a few incidents over seas as well, 90% involving reservists. These were pers who shouldn't have gone in the first place but due to numbers.......

Regards


----------



## rounder (30 Nov 2004)

Franko,

    You are right WRT you ROTO 13 comments. I was a reservist on that ROTO and someone made a big mistake by no giving us the ability to replace our bad apples. I can speak from experience because there was atleast one soldier in my sect that should never have deployed. This problem has since been remedied (I think) and if the proper selection process exists (as it did on 2 Pl A Sqn) and reservists are easily capable.


----------



## bossi (30 Nov 2004)

Mortar guy said:
			
		

> Totally off topic but: Bde SM Ford was the nicest CWO I ever met! Great guy. That may explain why morale at Warehouse was so much better than Julien.   ???



This is perfectly on topic - leadership is a crucial element in mitigating operational stress.
Thus, it's no suprise that CWO Ford was awarded the Meritorious Service Cross (!)  BZ!!!


----------



## bossi (30 Nov 2004)

And, here's some more info on the Ombudsman's visit - from my perspective, very accurate ...

*Soldiers made to play tour guide: Marin
`Military tourists' called `huge ordeal'*
Troops shuttle visitors around Kabul

Bruce Campion-Smith, Ottawa Bureau

OTTAWAâ â€Canada's overworked soldiers in Kabul have found themselves saddled with another task â â€ tour guide. 

"Military tourists" â â€ business and community leaders flown in by the armed forces for tours of the base and the war-torn city â â€ are taxing an already overburdened contingent of Canadian soldiers, military ombudsman Andre Marin said yesterday.

While meant as a way to boost the military's profile, these all-expenses-paid trips offered to community leaders and in one case, a defeated Liberal candidate, is causing friction amongst the soldiers who are forced to entertain the visitors for days on end.

The visitors can show up 10 at a time â â€ as they did last week â â€ creating a big headache of organizing escorts, convoys and security to shuttle them around Camp Julien, the Canadian base, and into the city.

Soldiers derisively refer to it as the "safari club." 

"The first thing they want to do is go buy a rug in downtown Kabul," said one military official.

"It's a huge ordeal," said Marin, who visited Kabul himself last week and heard firsthand the complaints of the troops.

Marin says he kept his own visit to the base last week short â â€ just 48 hours â â€ because he recognized the imposition it places on the soldiers.

"I've heard complaints about the numbers of visitors, too many visitors coming through the base," Marin said.

One of those visitors, Greater Nanaimo Chamber of Commerce president Russ Burke, admits he thought "someone was pulling his leg" when he got the defence department letter inviting him on a two-week tour of Canada's military operations in Croatia and Afghanistan. 

Visiting Kabul last week, Burke says he was taken out on a reconnaissance mission into the hills around Kabul, shown some of the local villages and a bombed-out palace, a local landmark, and lunched with the Canadian ambassador in Afghanistan.

The group was shuttled around in a Bison armoured vehicle. After some complaints that the group didn't get to see much of Kabul itself, the military used G-wagens to show them bombed-out sections of the city.

Still, he said showcasing Canada's armed forces in action serves a valuable purpose.

Just back from his own visit, Marin is sounding the alarm after he found that overworked Canadians troops are nearing the breaking point. He will present his concerns, outlined in a 25-page memo, when he sits down with Maj.-Gen. Marc Caron, assistant chief of land staff.

Defence Minister Bill Graham vowed that Marin's warning about the burden on Canadian soldiers will be taken "very seriously."

"What the Canadian public has to understand is that when we reduced our force in Afghanistan from 2,000 to 700, obviously we reduced the scope of the mission as well," he said.

But Marin has suggested that Canada cut its troop strength too deeply, leaving too few soldiers in Afghanistan for the job they have to do.

 full Toronto Star article


----------



## Spr.Earl (30 Nov 2004)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I'll tell you one thing for certain.   I've never met a Marine clerk that won't dig their own fighting hole, shoot a man dead at 500 yards with iron sight,   be competent on a security patrol and know which way to place a Claymore.
> 
> I understand firsthand how a deployment can be a real bag-drive, but what these people are bitching about is pretty weak.   10 hour days behind a desk or computer screen?   Then 6 hours on sentry?   You're still getting 8 hours sleep.   You've got fresh, hot meals.   You've got access all day in the orderly room to email and DSN lines to call home.   What's to complain about?
> 
> Pathetic.



Matt first off I take umbrage with your comment of " Pathetic".
Most of our people over in the Sand Box have done 4 or more tours in the former Yug. plus Kosovo and even for those Eng. there did 1 or 2 tours just after Gulf 1.
Now this battle group are those who did the first Tour to aid your Country against Uncle Bini!!
They are out of Edmonton,1 CMBG.

This is a comment on our over taxing of our Forces.

In 97 I went in to Bosnia with a so called Eng. Field Sqn. which in reality is 150+ alas we were 90 all souls and the Men I went in with this was their 3rd Tour so please don't knock our clerk's.
I bet most of our clerck's have more Operational Gong's than most of your's and most of our clerk's do know how to shoot.


P.S. Matt,all told we have what only 60,000 all arms,including Reserves I'm proud of what my fellow members are doing.You try it with out the Super tech you Ham Shank's have and let's see how well the U.S. would do.


----------



## KevinB (30 Nov 2004)

Earl - Matt's right...

Having been on Roto II and knowing how worked we were with 3PL's doing Force Protection I can sympathize with the guys over there now with 2Pl's.  Quite simply put there is NO time off - at best you are on 15min NTM - Your only days of are your HLTA.

When we do OP's we need the EME SEALS to man the gate - somethign they are not adequately trained for - now before the non combat arms folk get in a flap - I have done trg with the USMC and agree with Matt that that is how we must be - it is a waste of resources to have the 031's guarding the base - we/they shoudl be out patrolling and doing cordon and searches, raids etc.  The tail in the tours is LARGE and with a Recce Sqn, Eng Sqn, and 3 Inf Pl's (QRF,D&S, Recce) - meanwhile the other half of the cmp lie the (relative) life of Riley - like the typical Bosnia/Croatia/Kosovo wog camp with the frat and drinking etc...

I am surpirsed that a Strat or Patrica has not McEachern'd out and driven a LAV or Coyote over the Messes.


----------



## Spr.Earl (30 Nov 2004)

Kev,you have that right " We are all Infantry if need be"
But I still umbrage because not all of them are REMFS.
How are things going?


----------



## KevinB (30 Nov 2004)

Earl,

Good point - but I don't have lots of sympathy for folks doing 10hrs of office work and an occasional 6hrs of guard - people have to understand that their safety is their own responsibility as well - or elese we go down the road which were are currently travellign and that creates a rift between the cbt arms (Armoured, Inf and Engr's - I left out Gunners due to their non-involvement in this Roto [no I did not mean you Gunner   )  and the support trades.  Sunday routine is a REMF concept and not fit for this Roto.


I am basking in the glory of the Edmonton winter  :-\  Trying to decide which place I hate more...


----------



## Infanteer (30 Nov 2004)

I'm on Matt's side here.

Yes, Kabul has it's dangers and it's strains, but considering the fact that there are Americans doing their third combat tour in the sandbox (yes, in a two-way shooting gallery), we really should put things in perspective.   Canada's been blessed with extremely low casualties in the War on Terror.   We aren't sending kids home everyday from places like Fallujah or some Pashtun village.

Can these people cry - sure, go ahead.   I seen some people get fed up with some of the tour BS in oh-so-quiet Bosnia.   But don't go sobbing to the Ombudsman about how bad things are in the Army and acting like some victim, because we're not.   Suck it up, do you job, and be happy that you don't have to clear a mosque full of badguys or drive a convoy into Baghdad.   If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Sometimes, I think it is going to take a big shooting war for us to get our priorities straight.

My 2 cents

Infanteer


----------



## Gunner (30 Nov 2004)

> (Armoured, Inf and Engr's - I left out Gunners due to their non-involvement in this Roto [no I did not mean you Gunner   )



Kevin - Luckily there are a couple of gunners in Camp Julien...an island of sanity in a sea of discourse.   

As far as the remainder of the arguments.  I'm on HLTA so I wasn't there when the ombudsman spoke to the soldiers in Camp Julien.  I caution against drawing conclusions over what he is reporting as he has his own agenda.  Are people overworked over there?  Some are, some aren't.   Same on every tour.  

Having said that, you have to remember that LFWA has been the "goto" area for the Army for the last 5 or so years.  No other area has done 3 tours back to back (we've done it twice) and it causes alot of stress on the area, its formations, units and soldiers.  Roto 2 has little in common with Roto 0 and Roto 1.  In essence it is a different misision and has its own unique and difficult challenges to face due to the environment, the organization of the Task Force, and the lack of defined AO.  

From my perspective, all the elements are working very well together and we have formed a strong team.  Well done to the soldiers deployed out there.


----------



## George Wallace (30 Nov 2004)

Like many others (mostly of the Cbt Arms ilk) I am siding with Matt.  On the Reservists wanting to go, that is a sour point to many Regs who loose posns to Reservists and have to stay back as Rear Party.  Another sour point is the new rules of who can CC a turreted veh.  Why am I no longer qualified to crew command a Coyote, having CC'd and Gunned Coyotes, Tanks and Lynx's, but a Reservist with no Coyote Crses at all can be parachuted in to do a CC job?  We have serious problems in the Land side of things.  In our Regiment, we have numerous people heading back over to Afghanistan, having signed waivers, while others are chomping at the bit for a tour.  We have guys who have done all the UNPROFOR, SFOR, IFOR, KFOR and then ISAF, while others have none.  In some cases some have taken Release and joined a Reserve Unit to get a Tour.  


As for LFWA getting so many taskings......LFCA isn't doing too shabby either.  Last year the Bde was doing two Taskings simultaneously, Bosnia and Afghanistan.  Those who were left, did the thankless job of Rear Party and prepped 5 Bde for their next tours.  Petawawa was literally a Ghost Town.  It is a serious problem that needs immediate attention.  That Three year Training Cycle they dreamt up in 2003, has already proven to be a failure.  Units can not keep up this tempo for much longer.

GW


----------



## Matt_Fisher (30 Nov 2004)

Infanteer and KevinB,

Good to see that somebody else is not seeing the world in rose-tinted glasses.

Earl,

Like I said earlier.   I understand firsthand the strains of a deployment.   As a reservist I'm looking at doing another mandatory deployment from June 2005 to March of 2006 after having been in Iraq from March through October of 2003, so I think I know what I'm talking about serious Optempo.   Pretty much all the Marine Corps is either in Afghanistan or Iraq, getting ready to go, or has just gotten back.   The same goes with the US Army.   And as Infanteer pointed out this is the second or third tour in 2 and a half years for alot of them.   Also don't forget too that the Marine Corps regularly pumps its units out for 6 month MEU deployments in peace or war.   It's pretty average even in peacetime for a Marine to spend 18 months at home then 6 months deployed in either Okinawa or as part of a MEU.

While you may resent my rudeness towards the comments of those that complained so loudly in public, I will ask you this.   Do you not think that these few are doing a tremendous dishonour to the record of Canadians a gritty fighters that prevailed in such places as Vimy Ridge, Ortona or Kapyong because of their spirit?   Who is more rude, me for calling a spade a spade or those who dishonour the work done by those around them by crying about the fact that they don't like having 14 hours of off-duty time a day in a forward area?

There is a time and a place to address your concerns.   The office of the Ombudsman is a legitimate forum for serious problems.   Serious Optempo and back to back tours, etc. are legitimate concerns, but when someone gets all teary eyed about having to pull their share of security duty I have very little sympathy.

Like Kevin said, if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.   No-one is preventing these people from applying for a release once they get back to Canada so that they can get a nice 9-5 job.


----------



## Spr.Earl (30 Nov 2004)

Thank's Gunner,
1 CMBG has been on the go since the end of Gulf 1 if wish to know.
That's when 1 CER deployed as a whole Regiment to the head of the Persion Gulf in Umkassar.
UXO clearance and clarifying the border!
Then the next full Regimental deployment was Roto 0 UNPROFOR etc.

I don't have to dictate the Regiments tours as you know they have many under their belt and I Have seen and do see the changes amongst my friends.


----------



## Spr.Earl (30 Nov 2004)

Matt we have not heard the whole story true.

I posted on the benefit of the doubt,which we are all allowed yes?
The CDN Forces have been and are streched which is a given.

O.K. was it a newbie?

In 95 you could not go over seas unless you were QL. 5 qualified or had X yrs in, now we are sending QL 3'? over seas because of the shortage of qualified people?
May be this is were this has come from?

Matt I've been a member of our Militia since 76 I volunteered back last July for the Sand Pit but alas my  Boss' went.


----------



## KevinB (30 Nov 2004)

Secondly it appears many of the poeple on tour keep gonig back again and again.
 With many sitting on the sidelines.

No one held a gun to the heads of people on Roto II to get them to go...


----------



## Franko (30 Nov 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Secondly it appears many of the poeple on tour keep gonig back again and again.
> With many sitting on the sidelines.



It's not by choice either.....  

Regards


----------



## ArmyRick (30 Nov 2004)

Matt, I kind of agree with you. We in the CF have it alot easier than you guys down south w/Iraq conflict/war. 
My first tour overseas was a very busy tour with average working days between 12-18 hours. If members are suffering PTSD, then thats a reason for breaking down or if a troop has home issues than again I can understand. 
If it is because of long hours, man thats the job.
I would like to know more about who this is breaking down (i'll find out, i almost always do). 
And yes, the CF is stretched too thin.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (30 Nov 2004)

Matt,

I just have to say that the Op Tempo of the Marines I worked with in Haiti was unreal.  The SSgt running the ASP had got back fron 8 months in Iraq in October, went to Haiti in March, while there was put on notice that if he didn't go to Iraq again in October then he would definately be going in January 05. So that means best case scenario 13 months out of 24 he's gone and in month 25 he goes again, worst case he's gone 17 out of 24 with anywhere from another 2 to 4 months to go before heading home.
The EOD guys were even more heavily tasked.   Half the crew were getting out pdq because of it coupled with good jobs they could get outside.
I have serious doubts that the CF could sustain a tempo like that without bleeding pers.  A major cultural shift in how we perceive deployments would have to take place, at least in the Army.
So hats off to all the hard working Marines out there.


----------



## enfield (30 Nov 2004)

I always wondered about Canadian op tempo vs American or British op tempo. US forces certainly seem to be busy in the past few years, and the Brits, from what I can tell, have always maintained an unreal operational tempo. Anyone have any solid info on US/UK units and their overseas time?
And how much overseas time to various Canadian units actually get? How does it vary between Inf-other Combat Arms-CSS-Air Force etc?

I can only speak from what the article says, and those in theatre will have the real picture, but it looks like something went wrong for someone over there. Supposedly we're ready for War - but long hours on a relatively safe base, with plenty of amenities, is breaking our troops? I hope not. 

I think its been said before, but out of a military of 58,000 (roughly) personnel, we can only sustain 1500 on operations at a time, something is very wrong.


----------



## Bartok5 (30 Nov 2004)

Well,

To be brutally honest, I believe that we as a military are pathetically weak.  And I don't mean that in the combat capability sense (although that is also sadly true), I mean it in the sense of personal and institutional fortitude.  

If we have troops complaining (let alone crying!!) about being deployed and working 18/24, then we have fundamentally missed the boat somewhere in training those individuals as to what they SHOULD (not could) expect on operations.  If we are molly-coddling our junior soldiers, then we have no one to blame but ourselves for creating abjectly false expectations about what it is that they should expect to endure when push comes to shove and requirements dictate that they get on with the job despite not having a full "swing-shift", stainless steel toilets, internet access, fresh rations, etc, etc.

I'm not going to sit here and tell "war stories" other than to illustrate a point.  When my former unit deployed to Afghanistan on combat operations back in 2002, we wore FFO (with plates) continuously for 3.5 months.  We had no stoves to heat washing or coffee water for the first month.  We went without showers for 2 weeks at a time during the first 3 months.  We ate out of foil bags and burned our own excrement.  We worked 7 days a week, 18 hours per day.  We lived in 2-per Recce tents on a gravel floor.   We had no HLTA, and we had no projected R&R.  We didn't have an end-tour date, and half-way through the tour we still fully expected to be there until the deed was done.  9 months?  12 months?  Whatever.   The fact of the matter is that I NEVER saw anyone crying or snivelling about their self-selected lot in life on Op APOLLO....

All of the above leads me to wonder if we haven't created an entirely irrational and self-defeating expectation of "entitlement" amongst our soldiers in recent years.  My theory being that all of our so-called "peace support operations" of the past (and present) with their "4-star" accommodations, their guaranteed R&Rs and HLTA, their connectivity with hearth and home, etc, etc, have set the conditions where Canadian troops now harbour unrealistic expectations of comfort and security.  Perhaps it is time for an institutional "wake-up call".....  A bit of "tough love" if you will....

Don't get me wrong.  I am all for making life as painless as possible for the troops that are doing the business.  But aside from the logistic burden and institutional dangers of doing so, are we perhaps doing the bayonets themselves a disfavour?   Are we making life so comfortable that the troops are losing sight of the aim?  I honestly don't know the answer to that one, but I can tell you that living the austere "WainCon" life in K'har kept us pretty focussed and sharp.  I'd love to see someone do a quantitative study on the deletorious (or not) effects of a "soft life" in an operational environment.  It would be fascinating.

Physically crying to the Ombudsman?  I certainly hope not.  If so, those troops need a swift kick in the nads.  And if that sort of wake-up call doesn't sort them out, then they need a trip home to turn in their kit.  Quite frankly, that is pathetic.  Been there, done that.  You can get used to anything if you have the right attitude/outlook and the requisite unit (or sub-unit) spirit to carry you through.  

This crap pisses me off to no end.  Yes, there is undoubtedly an element of media inflation at work here.  But that could not exist without the whinging spark to initiate the media fire.  A very, very sad state of affairs.  Quite frankly, I find it horribly embarassing.  Especially coming from troops who plant their butts on stainless steel crappers when they are not scarfing fresh rations or taking a hot shower in between their horrific work shifts, scheduled R&R, and HLTA..... 

Just my rather jaded $.02


----------



## Infanteer (1 Dec 2004)

Game, set, and match....

I remember we had a discussion about the disadvantages of the "Big Base" mentality that our military has picked up when looking at deployments.  Is the Ombudsman's story only the natural outcome of trying to import Canada, luxuries and all, to any overseas operation?

Personally, I'm embarrassed as well.  Any image of the stoic soldier that makes due with what he's got that the Canadian Army presents is quickly drowned with stories like this, which reinforce the notion of the "peacekeeping" Army.


----------



## rounder (1 Dec 2004)

> On the Reservists wanting to go, that is a sour point to many Regs who loose posns to Reservists and have to stay back as Rear Party.



 George,

        How can we be stretched too thin then. Is the army that ignorant about who wants to go and who doesn't?? As for the RCD's, yes, I was aware of the jealousy of the B Sqn guys for ROTO 13, and I would be too, but thats not the choice of the reservists.

Cheers


----------



## Michael Dorosh (1 Dec 2004)

Mark C - from my perspective, well said.  That same historian's perspective points me to the US experience in Vietnam - where soldiers on combat operations would return to oasis-like base camps with cold beer, steaks and all the amenities of home, as well as the "right" to an R&R leave as well as a DEROS (Date of Expected Return from Over Sseas) written in stone after 12 months (or 13 if he was a Marine).  I am sure there has been some ink spilled over that subject, a glance through US military journals may provide you some of the interesting reading you seek.


----------



## 54/102 CEF (1 Dec 2004)

If this was a pay site I could see comments like that below - but it isn't So less verball Bullying is in order - the succes of the site and the credibility of its Senior and Junior members will not be enhanced by language which is found inside the Canadian parliament. 



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> > I would expect more from a Sr member on this site
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Franko (1 Dec 2004)

Well said Mark C.....

Regards


----------



## 043 (1 Dec 2004)

Chimo Mark C!!!!!!!!!!!

Time to stop Coddling the troops!!!!!!!!!! 

I am quite sure that there are jobs out there for people who want to do the bare minimum to get by.


----------



## 54/102 CEF (1 Dec 2004)

Ref less verbal bullying - I get accused of that all the time - but I hope you all get my drift.

Here is what the game is all about

Gen Arthur Currie spoke in Toronto   on Aug 29, 1919 
see all here http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?SpeechID=417&FT=yes



> On the first of last October we were counter-attacked by eight German divisions, two of which were fresh, do you realize that meant fifty or sixty thousand Germans, all quite willing to die, coming right at us determined to kill everyone if they could get through. And we were determined that we would kill every one of them rather than let them get through. On that day we fired seven thousand tons of ammunition into them. No wonder the ammunition factories of Canada were kept busy. It was fired to kill. If they got close to us and escaped the artillery we tried to shoot them with rifles, kill them with machine guns. If they came on, as they were quite willing to, we were ready to stick the bayonet into them. I want you to understand what war is and you cannot have war without the inevitable price.



In peacetime or the twilight of operations less than war - the underfunded nature of the military will not get better until it gets noticed by the politicians. An example - the Navy's Sub program fairly or unfairly got noticed recently with the accident (I presume it was an accident) on the HMCS Chicoutimi. Ten years back the politicians saw what they could not put up with and took out the Airborne Regiment.

While things are held together by gun tape and the forces in being are where they are at - I can't see the leadership falling on its sword and getting more money for more troops. An example - 5000 new troops may suggest that we have depth for another 25% of that doing on a deployment - spread between Army Navy Airforce.

I will keep banging this drum until I am a civvy - Pay Reserves like the Brits and Americans do and tap them for deployments - this could EASILY generate 1500 troops deployable on a recurring basis. Fill the NCO billets with regulars and let them slip back home when the reserves are fully up to speed. The records of the CEF above and those who were deployed at the end of WW2 - Korea and deployed to the front lines of NATO as late as the late 1980s suggest that the soldiers can be trained quickly ...... see the Pro's with a job and the con's as it would kick out a lot of 20 year soldiers ---- http://army.ca/forums/threads/21429.0.html

Gentlemen - you have your challenge - debunk - once and for all the idea of the Reserve ready Force of 1500 - or get behind it.

[Moderator note:  Edited for clarity - quotation highlighted]


----------



## KevinB (1 Dec 2004)

Foremostly I fully agree with MarkC

I must admit that my time in Afghan with RotoII I had MORE amentities than we did when I was in Cyprus on the booze cruise as it where.  I agree that while we should make it comfortable for ourself it should not and cannot be at the expence of operational capability - which very simply it has been done.  Looking at reg force deployments - some trades - Armoured and Engineers carry a larger/heavier deployment schedule than the 031 trades - this in wrong but seems to be how we deploy (with the exception of Op Apollo) we simply try to minimise the bayonets on the ground.  I know that American studies of PTSD and related issues have found that troops without a clear mission and support at home are much more susceptible.  We seem to ignore this and focus on the warm fuzzy idea of "Peace Support Operations".  I really wonder that if Canada faced a National Crisis if we coudl muster the intestinal fortitude to deploy soliders for longer periods.  As a Nation and as the CF we seem (institutionally) to be intent on doing nothing more than showing the flag.  As INFANTEER said previously (in an older thread) we seem contnet to sit by and be Harmid Karzai "the Mayor or Kabul" (as he very precisely called it) Police force.  What we as Canadians shoudl be doing is high skilled operations and leave the policing to the Euro rental armies.

 The only times I wanted to cry in Afghan was when I could not put a 40mm round into the Mess where a live band was playing to the enjoyment of the non 0X1 trades.  Nothign like rock music blaring over Kabul for the Hearts and Minds eh?  :

In my mind we need to bring a fourth brigade up to strength and start doing Brigade deployments on a logical rotation - Plug and Play does not work (and I noticed the Ombuddi coudl nto even get the concept right to quote...)


----------



## ArmyRick (1 Dec 2004)

pbi, once again well said..
MarkC, right on the money..
Matt had also said it as well. 
I will stand by an earlier statement about Bosnia (which upset some people who had the one token tour there) Canada should be a higher intensity peace FORCED implementation and replaced when stabilization starts to appear by "rental euro" armies (LOL thinking hungarians). We could do full on combat operations IF (big IF) we play with big brother America or older cousin United Kingdom.
Or who knows, maybe Australia, New Zealand and Canada triple tag team could unload some international whoop toosh on terrorist or questionable nations...


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!! (3 Dec 2004)

I realize when a battle group size element is deployed overseas there is not much room to manoever if you have genuine issues to going into a theatre that may expect long hours in adverse conditions, however Canadian facilities have gone from a ration in a tent to the finest overseas camp ive ever seen.Correct me if im wrong but im wondering, since we scaled back to 700 pers could one assume the majority if not all members on this tour wanted to go or is it a case of a few first timers that realized the overseas thing wasnt for them and thats what the media focused on.


----------



## pbi (4 Dec 2004)

> Kev,you have that right " We are all Infantry if need be"



No-we're not. And that, as a couple of other posters have noted and as we have argued at length on another thread, IMHO is a part of our problem. We need to dump this outdated wasteful and potentially dangerous 1960's idea of "tradesman first, soldier second" (IMHO an Air Force construct in direct opposition to traditional Army and Navy perspectives) and realize that the Cold War with its neatly delineated battlefields and comfy ideas of nice, "secure" Rear Areas is long gone. We need, as Matt pointed out, people who can live and perform as soldiers regardless of their MOCs. Only some will be true "Infantry", (even the USMC agrees with that...) but the rest will all be "soldiers" who can do just as Matt describes and who realize that going on an op in a combat zone means you lower your expectations way down. If you get internet, a mess with a big screen TV, and a weatherhaven with lights and a cot and hot/cold ablutions nearby, great.Enjoy. If not, you remember where you are and what you are there for and suck it up. I wonder how many soldiers would actually agree with the Ombudsman's claims. If his track record from 2PP "Crazy Train" is any indication, I bet there are quite a number of soldiers (of all ranks) who would challenge his statements. Cheers.


----------



## Armymedic (5 Dec 2004)

Again I say,
Everyone has their breaking point...unless you've been to yours, then you probably don't understand what the pers described are going thru.

But I do agree, if your getting paid $2000+ a month to be there...then you should expect to work for it a little...


----------



## garb811 (5 Dec 2004)

Well said all, the system is reaping what it has sown.   

Aside from the entirely valid points being expressed, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that for many people this is a â Å“jobâ ? and not a lifestyle, particularly in the purple trades.   I was shocked a number of years ago when this topic came up during a discussion and the consensus was this was a job and not a lifestyle.   Since that time I've been watching for signs of this attitude and it is all too prevalent, particularly in my Branch since the requirement for the college degree was imposed.   Of course they want to work 8-4, maybe until 5 if they can come in late the next day.   In fact, I've been told by a new MP that they'd never go on tour "'cause they joined to be a cop, not a soldier".   I'm hoping that attitude was an anomaly, but I'm worried it might not be as our training system actually encourages the 9-5 mentality.



			
				Armymedic said:
			
		

> Again I say,
> Everyone has their breaking point...unless you've been to yours, then you probably don't understand what the pers described are going thru.



I'm sorry, but if doing your job and then having to pull some extra duties is your breaking point, then there is a problem.   We no longer teach our recruits how to deal with and function under stress due to a conscious decision to move to a â Å“no stressâ ? training model, at the basic stage of training at least.      People thought this was no longer required and that it was too much of a disincentive for potential recruits, never mind that what was going on was, in fact, Stress Inoculation which is now commonly regarded as one of the most effective ways of dealing with, and learning to function under, situational stress.   While I agree there was out right abuse going on in some instances, as others have pointed out, when I hit the wall I got up, dusted myself off and went â Å“Hey...that didn't kill me.â ? and carried on with a better understanding of my limits and better yet, I was able to formulate a plan to deal with that particular issue in the future, thereby allowing me to deal with it without falling down.   Some people weren't able to pick themselves up and they were told to pack their bags before a substantial amount of time, money and effort had been invested.   Now, by the time we identify someone is unable to manage under stress they are so far into the system that there is no easy way to get them out and they end up becoming a burden to themselves and everyone around them and I'm not talking while being on tour either.      Some people just weren't cut out to be a soldier, no matter what they may think, and we need to start identifying those individuals at the earliest stages and moving them along before the system decides there is too much time and money invested in the individual to release them for something like unsatisfactory performance under stressful circumstances.

Vimy, Ortona and Kapyong were harder generations, individuals who, for the most part, had enough hardship in their civilian life that the â Å“minorâ ? items such as working long hours under physical hardships and extreme conditions were in some cases, better than their civilian life.   Compare that to today's kids where a TV, DVD player, computer and PS2 are standard bedroom items, roughing it is driving to Kananaskis Country with Dad's 35 ft 5th wheel camper trailer (similarly equipped as the bedroom and a portable satellite dish) and walking the block and a half to Mac's for a chocolate bar and Super Size Big Gulp is a ludicrous idea (that's why I have a car!) and of course a 16 hour day is going to be stressful.   Not true in all cases of course but how many kids today have even seen a cow up close and personal, let alone killed what they're going to eat?

Another issue which needs to be addressed is the on-going use of civilian contractors.   I know this was an issue of concern to the CSS world when it first started up but assurances were made that the troops would benefit from this due to the lower Op Tempo.   Unfortunately, the item which never really was addressed is the fact that for each civilian on the ground, that's one less troop for the tasks which need to be done to ensure the camp is safe and liveable, not to mention all those Quarter Guards for visiting VIPs which require 8 hours of practice for a 15 min event, particularly in those instances when there is no D&S Pl or the D&S Pl ends up being tasked with other duties due to short staffing in other areas.

Lastly, yet another perfect example of an article which, when read critically, lacks enough information to form an objective opinion.   Reg Force or Reserve?   Did they have the benefit of all the pre-deployment training or, as happens in too many cases, and one is too many, did they arrive at the last minute before deployment?   If a Reg, are they an individual augmentee or a member of the unit?   If a reservist, did they even have the training and experience for the position?   Were co-workers able to perform their duties or was the individual having to pick up the slack, thereby increasing their workload?   A good example of this one is Militia MPs.   Coming up with a number of positions required to do the task then automatically giving 20-25% of those positions to pers who do not have the authority, training or experience to do it either means you can use 20-25% less people or someone has to pick up the slack.   Don't get me wrong, for the most part the Militia MP personnel are great and do their best but in this specific instance, the system is failing them by not providing the training required and the Reg Force MPs pick up the slack. 

Anyways, way too long...


----------



## Michael Dorosh (5 Dec 2004)

> Not true in all cases of course but how many kids today have even seen a cow up close and personal, let alone killed what they're going to eat?



LOL.  How many Canadian soldiers in the Second World War had ever seen a cow or killed their dinner?   Most of them came from the cities.


----------



## John Nayduk (7 Dec 2004)

Here's my 2 cents.  I haven't read the entire post but I've read enough to comment.  I think that a lot  has to do with us being short changed on training at home.  When was the last RV?  How many long FTXs have we been on?  The military can't afford to hold big, long FTXs and this short changing is starting to show in operations.  You get used to the hardships by practicing it in the field.  When the army can't afford us good, realistic training at home, this stuff starts to show up.  Pisses me off to see the government cheaping out on the military and our lives.


----------

