# A&W Papa Burgers:  The choice of Griffon pilots everywhere



## Occam (2 Oct 2009)

*Military chopper lands for Kenora burger takeout*

Original link

Last Updated: Friday, October 2, 2009 | 11:56 AM ET

A Canadian military helicopter pilot with a sudden hankering for hamburgers set his aircraft down on a Kenora, Ont., baseball diamond, and walked into an A&W restaurant across the street for a takeout order.

"He ordered four papa burgers with cheese combos and two papa burgers on the side," server Stacey Hawes told CBC News on Thursday.

The pilot was nice and polite, and made it seem as if he was just driving a regular car, she added.

Laura Madison was in her house in Kenora when she heard the whirring noise of the helicopter blades just down the street. When she looked out her window, she couldn't believe her eyes.

"It's a huge double-door … helicopter, which you don't see landing in the middle of town every day," Madison said. "He went in and got some A&W takeout and took off. So we're laughing because it was the strangest drive-thru we've ever seen."


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## MARS (2 Oct 2009)

hahahahahahahaha...

Will be interesting to find out the background to this.  Although not the oddest looking photo on the site, it might make for part of the army.ca headlines thread perhaps?

My favourite comments from the CBC website are the following:

"A real pilot would have hovered in the drive through....."; and

"This is very appropriate use of a military aircraft. Being able to land in any location is an important skill to be practicing. I commend the pilot in combining the lunch run with his training, thereby negating the necessity to drive an automobile there, thus reducing greenhouse gases."


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## Occam (2 Oct 2009)

I recall instances in the past where Sea Kings have landed in unusual locations such as this.  Never did hear if it was frowned upon or not.

I'm in awe at the overwhelming support of the commentors!  I would have expected a lot more griping, but it's nice to see the public realize that it's not exactly like a junket to Florida in a CF-18 for a round of golf.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2009)

Careful, or the other fast food outlets'll get jealous, with hypothetical signs* like the attached....  ;D

_* - this is *NOT* a real sign, just one made up at a cool web page:
http://www.says-it.com_


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Oct 2009)

At least it wasn't a pub like some Harrier pilots apparently did in Germany.

It also explains the small payload of the Griffion, after you calculate in the pilots and numerous papaburgers...... ;D


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## BlueJingo (2 Oct 2009)

For some reason when i first read the post my immediate thought was hmm... perhaps it's a female pilot...possibly having a craving... then logic kicked in... stupid Air Factor you can't be a preggo pilot...

But man those A&W Burgers are so gooood... i don't know what it is about them... but i could use one right now!


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## COBRA-6 (2 Oct 2009)

Kenora? Maybe they were on a long-range flight and decided the box lunches were just not cutting it? 

I doubt the sole purpose of the flight was to hit up the A&W and return to base!


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## medicineman (2 Oct 2009)

I can see it now - A&W:Official Artery Clogger of Canada's Air Force  ;D.

As an addendum, I'm wondering if they stopped off at Kenora Regional Hospital after for another unannounced stop... :.

MM


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## Blackadder1916 (2 Oct 2009)

There are a few more details in this article.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Forces+chopper+pilot+with+munchies+makes+stop+burgers/2060426/story.html


> Forces' chopper pilot with the munchies makes stop for burgers
> 
> By Linda Nguyen, Canwest News Service October 2, 2009 3:57 PM
> 
> ...



While CF aircraft are exempt from the CARs that would be (if it were not a DND a/c) applicable in this incident (such as 602.13) are there military flying regulations that similarly govern the conduct of "Take-offs, Approaches and Landings within Built-up Areas of Cities and Towns"?  Perhaps one of the flying types can respond.


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## COBRA-6 (2 Oct 2009)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I can see it now - A&W:Official Artery Clogger of Canada's Air Force  ;D.



"And in other CF news, the Chinook community, refusing to be outdone, sling loaded a 5T bucket of KFC back to base. Later today, the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps and DLR held a joint press conference to announce the LEO2 Deep Fryer variant. Meanwhile, CMS staff refuse to comment on reports of an imminent amendment to the JSS SOR which specifies the capability to store and transfer "no less than 50,000lbs of Swiss Chalet Sauce".


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## kratz (2 Oct 2009)

:rofl: That post came out fast. It was worth a laugh.


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## chrisf (2 Oct 2009)

I'm impressed this is "news"... how many green vehicles have been crammed into the empty parking lot across from the tim's in Wainwright? A battle group worth?


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## proudnurse (2 Oct 2009)

If you're hungry.. you're hungry. You gotta do what you gotta do right?  the burgers at A&W are not too bad at all.. haven't had one in a while, I might have done the same thing had the chance arrived. Now imagine if he took the helicopter to one of the A&W cruise nights with the classic cars? 

It's nice to see this story.. put a  on my face.


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## COBRA-6 (2 Oct 2009)

kratz said:
			
		

> :rofl: That post came out fast. It was worth a laugh.



Admit it, you kinda hope the chalet sauce part is true! I'd transfer to the Navy if it meant an unlimited supply of delicious chalet sauce... mmmm!


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## the 48th regulator (2 Oct 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> Admit it, you kinda hope the chalet sauce part is true! I'd transfer to the Navy if it meant an unlimited supply of delicious chalet sauce... mmmm!



However,

The KFC jab would have been more believable had you talked about a fellow coming out of a carrier, with an eight pointed star on his beret....


Zoinks!!!  Where is the I am outta here smiley??

dileas

tess


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## kratz (2 Oct 2009)

Hey, who can turn down duty free chalet suace during stand easy?  ;D


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## proudnurse (2 Oct 2009)

kratz said:
			
		

> Hey, who can turn down duty free chalet suace during stand easy?  ;D



You can actually order poutine at Swiss Chalet now, where they use the chalet sauce instead of gravy. Last time I took my daughter there for dinner.. we tried it. It's quite good! I don't know how long they've had that.. but it sure is worth a try.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2009)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I'm impressed this is "news"... how many green vehicles have been crammed into the empty parking lot across from the tim's in Wainwright? A battle group worth?


To be fair to reporters (that I'm happy to bitch about if needed), one of the elements of newsworthiness is "peculiarity", or "is this out of the ordinary?".  How often do CF Griffons stop for A&W takeout in Kenora?  I'm guessing the vehicles at Wainwright's Tim's are there more frequently than choppers in Kenora, so they're not as "peculiar".


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Oct 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> However,
> 
> The KFC jab would have been more believable had you talked about a fellow coming out of a carrier, with an eight pointed star on his beret....
> 
> ...



Wouldn't that be soul food for them?


 ;D


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## VIChris (3 Oct 2009)

As much as I'm impressed by the whole landing a chopper at A&W thing, this caught me right of guard: 

"The whole thing took no more than eight minutes, then he was gone,"

I'd like to forward this to all the A&Ws in Victoria, as I've yet to get an order in less than ten minutes, and it's generally wrong.


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## tomahawk6 (3 Oct 2009)

So the chain of command doesnt have an issue with this ?


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## brandon_ (3 Oct 2009)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> So the chain of command doesnt have an issue with this ?


Exactly what i'm wondering...


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## midget-boyd91 (3 Oct 2009)

Something similar happened in town here over the summer. Except it was a pair of float planes that landed in a lake (Lake Pisiquid, by the causeway on the 101 for those familiar with the area) for a Timmies run, then took off again.

Oddball


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## Loachman (3 Oct 2009)

One of the problems with cross-country flights is that a lot of the smaller airports that actually have jet fuel do not have a restaurant or other food source nearby. One can cab it into town or walk a couple of k, but that takes time. Two such meals can therefore kill a couple of hours, or the equivalent of one fuel hop. Combined, that could add a day/night to a Borden-Wainwright trip. Not too many eating establishments have suitable space to land, though, and it obviously attracts attention.

It used to be fairly common when I did my Jet Ranger course in Portage to land behind Rotten Ronnie's on the highway at Brandon on cross-country trips.

We also used to stop in with a Griffon at the Dairy Queen in Orangeville on occasion several years ago. The old hospital helipad was close by, and the DQ owner liked helicopters so lunch was always free. No reporters ever came out.

Will somebody in the chain of command say anything? One would hope not. So long as this was justified, and it is easy to do that from my point of view, there should be no problem.


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## the 48th regulator (3 Oct 2009)

Loachman said:
			
		

> One of the problems with cross-country flights is that a lot of the smaller airports that actually have jet fuel do not have a restaurant or other food source nearby. One can cab it into town or walk a couple of k, but that takes time. Two such meals can therefore kill a couple of hours, or the equivalent of one fuel hop. Combined, that could add a day/night to a Borden-Wainwright trip. Not too many eating establishments have suitable space to land, though, and it obviously attracts attention.
> 
> It used to be fairly common when I did my Jet Ranger course in Portage to land behind Rotten Ronnie's on the highway at Brandon on cross-country trips.
> 
> ...




Very well said Loach,

As a side note, I find these actions to be very good for PR with the public.

If the military PA gurus were smart, they would advise the chain of command to allow more of this to happen.  It would allow the public to further see we are serving their nation, and are human too.

We see too much of the public gathering around to view the hearses bringing our troops home.  Why not let the public see our troops alive and doing every day things?

Man, if me and my kiddies saw a chopper land at the local DQ or A&W, I would have to listen to them how cool it was to see soldiers for the next week!

I would rather them talking about that, than to have them mourn as young kiddies.

I say seize the moment when Canada's military is respected once again, and not because of loss, but of service and commonality

dileas

tess


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## Loachman (3 Oct 2009)

Yup, a mini-Op Connection, at no cost and combined with reasonable efficiency. Some excitement for the locals, good PR for us, time saved for two crews, and six full stomaches. Everybody should be happy.

That would have been the FE who went in for the pick-up, rather than one of the pilots. It's a lot easier that way.

As for regulations (earlier question), we are governed principally by B-GA-100 Canadian Forces Flying Orders, and then 1 CAD Orders.

I haven't been into Kenora for a couple of years, on a Wainwright trip, and I'm trying to remember what it was like. We spent the night before in Thunder Bay, so we wouldn't have been looking for food there. Waiting for the cab each way between Dauphin and the town took much longer than it did for the trips and meal, though.


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (3 Oct 2009)

Great story, great pics.  
Hey, when you're hungry, you're hungry.   And some times ya just can't get delivery. ;D


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## proudnurse (3 Oct 2009)

ENGINEERS WIFE said:
			
		

> Great story, great pics.
> Hey, when you're hungry, you're hungry.   And some times ya just can't get delivery. ;D



 amen


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## Roy Harding (3 Oct 2009)

ENGINEERS WIFE said:
			
		

> Great story, great pics.
> Hey, when you're hungry, you're hungry.   And some times ya just can't get delivery. ;D



Yup.  And it increased sales for A&W.  The wife is working the evening shift - so I didn't feel like cooking.  Off I went to the local A&W for a Papa Burger (and a Baby Burger for my faithful canine sidekick).


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (3 Oct 2009)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Yup.  And it increased sales for A&W.  The wife is working the evening shift - so I didn't feel like cooking.  Off I went to the local A&W for a Papa Burger (and a Baby Burger for my faithful canine sidekick).



But, Roy, the burning question is......was your mode of transportation quite as fancy?  hehehe


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## MARS (3 Oct 2009)

They carried thr story on CBC radio and TV last night - DND was reportedly "going to speak to the crew".

I hope the CO has some sense of humour about this...


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## PMedMoe (3 Oct 2009)

MARS said:
			
		

> They carried thr story on CBC radio and TV last night - DND was reportedly "going to speak to the crew".
> 
> I hope the CO has some sense of humour about this...



"Next time pick me up a Momma Burger."   ;D


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## Zoomie (3 Oct 2009)

The airport at Kenora is outside the town.  The second news story brings up the true reason for this stop over.  They were saving time and money by allowing the first helicopter to refuel first, while the other went and picked up food.  They saved a cab ride in and the extra couple of hours that Loachman was talking about.

Helicopters can and will land in any flat stretch of territory about the size of a tennis court.  This does not contravene the CARs nor does it impact on the B-GA-100 and our associated DIV flying orders.  I imagine that where this A&W is located does not qualify as a built up area either.

Good news story - should be treated as such by the MSM and DND.


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Oct 2009)

And a response from the Minister's office.

http://www.canada.com/news/Military+helicopter+touches+down+burgers/2063530/story.html


> *Investigation launched after Forces helicopter touches down for burgers*
> 
> Canwest News Service October 3, 2009 11:01 AM
> 
> ...


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## muskrat89 (3 Oct 2009)

OFFS    :


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## Sub_Guy (3 Oct 2009)

How the F*CK is this any different than the SAR guys landing at a Boston Pizza?


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2009)

As a taxpayer, if everything was done safely (which I trust it was), I'd be upset if this "investigation" ties up loads and loads of CF staff time.  It's great PR for the military, it's good face-to-face outreach and it's putting a few bucks into a local economy.  What's bad about that?


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## HollywoodHitman (3 Oct 2009)

I love this story. I am happy to see that the CoC hasn't flinched or made a big deal out of it. It's cool, as Loachman said, a mini-Op Connection with no additional cost. 

The public got to see that our military are 'real people' too, they eat!


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## Neolithium (3 Oct 2009)

Investigation? Yeesh. I hope it's short, sweet and does nothing more than admit that "_Operation Papa Burger has been a complete success_"


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Oct 2009)

If NDHQ acts like this is a bad thing, then the reporters will smell blood and chase them, causing them to chase their tails. In the mining business and in my current business landing a helicopter near a place to grab lunch is almost common place.


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Oct 2009)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> . . .  This does not contravene the CARs nor does it impact on the B-GA-100 and our associated DIV flying orders.  *I imagine that where this A&W is located does not qualify as a built up area either.*



As this got me wondering about where this particular A&W was located, I googled and found a thread on another forum (aviation related) where the same topic is being discussed.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59007

A couple of posts did describe the location, so it's likely that it was within the built-up area of Kenora.


> > agree with STL we do it all the time , However these guys are pushing it . Im in Kenora all the time and in my wildest fantasy I would not land right next to one of the busiest intersections in the city for a burger . The cops had to to trafic duty while the burgers were getting cooked . I heard it all over CBC today . Im sure the CO will have something to say to his boys .
> >
> > Livin the dream.. Go Root Bear
> 
> ...



It is conceivable that the intrepid aviators of this tale called the local constabulary and asked for their assistance in securing a hamburger LZ.  The locals, being close to (and probably frequent patrons of) the A&W, may have suggested the ball diamond.  Being next door to the cop shop, they (the cops) may have already considered it as an expedient LZ for their own operations.


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## Roy Harding (3 Oct 2009)

ENGINEERS WIFE said:
			
		

> But, Roy, the burning question is......was your mode of transportation quite as fancy?  hehehe



Nope.  But my co-pilot is a pretty cute 120 lb Mastiff.  We draw looks.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Oct 2009)

Gee, maybe they should retro "investigate" all the helicoptors that used to land behind the McD's in Collingwood when the AMF Battery was in it's heyday.

Just a case of DND not having a clue how to deal with anything media once again.


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## Bruce Williams (3 Oct 2009)

This whole thing makes no sense to me. Pilots and Papa burgers?????? Give me a break. Now Teen Burgers would have made sense!


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## SupersonicMax (3 Oct 2009)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> A couple of posts did describe the location, so it's likely that it was within the built-up area of Kenora.
> In YQK the cop shop is kitty corner to the A&W and right beside the ball diamond.



Define Built-Up Area.  AFAIK, the civilian definition is much different than the military one.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Oct 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Define Built-Up Area.  AFAIK, the civilian definition is much different than the military one.



I've never had occasion to define the term before, (probably like porn, hard to define but you know it when you see it) but I would assume that it is any area within the boundaries of a city or town that contained buildings or other man-made structures.  Though it is not included in the definitions listed in the CAR, it is unlikely that governmental authorities would leave the definition to individuals, so I did find this.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/commerce/policy/pl145.htm


> The terms "city" or "town" are taken to mean a municipal entity incorporated as such. There are former towns, particularly in Ontario and Quebec, which have been absorbed by either townships or municipalities. These do not meet the current definition of "city" or "town" and authorities under CAR 702.22 or 703.36 should not be issued for these. Within the Province of Nova Scotia, "regional municipalities" shall be considered to be cities.
> 
> *There is a significant body of jurisprudence regarding the interpretation of what constitutes "built-up", most of which is in the context of low flying violations. In general, "built-up" means a group of structures that are erected or elevators, service stations and so forth.* A departmental legal opinion indicates that a dock could be considered such a structure, particularly if it can be shown that there is a risk of damage to property or injury to persons. In situations where there is some doubt, it is better to err on the side of caution and issue an authorization.
> 
> The word "within" in this context has been interpreted to mean substantially surrounded by the built-up area. In practical terms this would mean that a landing site would have to be surrounded on all four sides or at least to the point that a landing aircraft would overfly a structure at some point, or fly close enough to create a hazard. As an example, a landing site on the edge of a town or on a shoreline would not require an authorization if the landing could be accomplished without overflying a structure or creating a hazard to any property. . . .




Not having access to current military pubs, I wouldn't know what specific CF orders and regulations would have governed the situation.

As to whether there were other structures in the area, a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## kratz (4 Oct 2009)

I happily spent some of my leave in Kenora this past summer and remember the A&W area. I do not know flying regulations, but the ball field is an open area. If the landing area is controlled as quoted in the news, I would think it might fit tactical if not training standards IMO.


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## lyned (4 Oct 2009)

I saw 2 of these land behind the McD's in Brandon, MB for lunch a few years ago. I thought that was pretty cool.


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## krustyrl (4 Oct 2009)

We also did it at Smitty's on the TC Hiway  north of Moose Jaw when Base Rescue was shutting down back in the day.!  Way cool.!


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## Good2Golf (12 Oct 2009)

The CAR / B-GA-100 overflight of built-up areas limits applies to exactly that, overflight.  When you are on approach to a designated landing area (approved for use, and area secured by LE, etc...) that 2000' within 1000' of track no longer applies.  Imagine trying to get into any hospital helipad to drop off a casualty if you couldn't actually fly to the pad?

IMO, this was most certainly a compliant landing.  Aside from the candy machine beside the fuel dispatcher's desk, there is no food at the YQK airport and the airport is WELL outside of town, on the 17a loop.

2 more ¢,
G2G

p.s. I'm a Harvey's kind of guy, though A&W will do in a pinch.

p.p.s.  Loach, it is likely the pilot, BTW...note he's not wearing a monkey-harness.


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## Loachman (12 Oct 2009)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> p.p.s.  Loach, it is likely the pilot, BTW...note he's not wearing a monkey-harness.



Or a vest.

Removed so as not to scare the patrons, or for better wallet access, I'd wager.

And still far easier than a pilot going in.


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## Good2Golf (12 Oct 2009)

Loachman said:
			
		

> ....and still far easier than a pilot going in.



Ah, you mean what with all the complicated "You have control, unplugging..." to do?  ;D


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## Loachman (12 Oct 2009)

That and walking in, carrying everything back, collecting enough money from everybody else etcetera.


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## aesop081 (12 Oct 2009)

Loachman said:
			
		

> That and walking in, carrying everything back, collecting enough money from everybody else etcetera.



You are right. All that is far to complex and requires too much effort for it to have been a pilot. FE it is.


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## medic65726 (13 Oct 2009)

About 6 years ago we were on our way back to Thunder Bay from a cancelled medevac north of Kenora I believe. While our pilots went for fuel in Dryden, they dropped us (the 2 medics) in the vacant lot next to the Dryden Tim Hortons to pick up coffee and donuts for the ride home.
I guess it was just that no one got any pictures but I would have thought a big orange helicopter would have been more noticable than a camo one.
Got some strange looks from the Timmies staff and it was a kinda fun experience. Then just waited in the parking lot for them to pick us up.
Names, dates and other details witheld to protect the guilty.


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## X-mo-1979 (14 Oct 2009)

And this my fellow soldiers is why physical fitness is important.If this FE had been a overweight turdmonkey waddling to the restaurant the media would have been all over it.thank you airman for representing the country well!


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## ajp (15 Oct 2009)

I could see them getting in trouble if they went through a drive through, we can't take DND veh's through them.  I can only immagine the number parked and running in any of the Oromocto Tim's waiting for the runner to go in and out with the required supplies.  I know a few pers cought going through in a DND plated vehicle and getting reported.  

The PAD at Salisbury sees the Occaisional SEA KING, and why not.


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## Blackadder1916 (15 Oct 2009)

While it would be impossible for a fast food outlet to accommodate a helicopter at the drive through window, perhaps those who provided designated spaces (much like handicapped parking) would see an increase in this niche market.


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## George Wallace (15 Oct 2009)

ajp said:
			
		

> I could see them getting in trouble if they went through a drive through, we can't take DND veh's through them.  I can only immagine the number parked and running in any of the Oromocto Tim's waiting for the runner to go in and out with the required supplies.  I know a few pers cought going through in a DND plated vehicle and getting reported.
> 
> The PAD at Salisbury sees the Occaisional SEA KING, and why not.




Yeah.  I imagine it would be rather hard to pull up to the window and pass cash and items between the two windows.  

Either, or both, the crew or server would have to have an awful long reach to make up for the distance required to keep those oscillating things up top from hitting something.


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## brandon_ (15 Oct 2009)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> While it would be impossible for a fast food outlet to accommodate a helicopter at the drive through window, perhaps those who provided designated spaces (much like handicapped parking) would see an increase in this niche market.



How exactly would the crew see the sign from the air...? aha


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## Roy Harding (15 Oct 2009)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> How exactly would the crew see the sign from the air...? aha



If they're driving the BLACK helicopters, they can see EVERYTHING.


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## Retired AF Guy (15 Oct 2009)

Nine of 10 chopper pilots prefer A & W over Wendy's.


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