# Training To Give Your Life



## Big T (24 Sep 2005)

I'm not sure where I should have posted this, so hopefully this will do?! Also not sure if this has been talked about already (most likely has) but I could not find anything!...
  
  I remember a scene in "Fahrenheit 911" ( at least I think it was this film ) where there was a soldier home from overseas who suffered from some sort of depression and how he has been mentally harmed through his experiences.  He continued to mention how, while training to deploy over seas, they were trained to give up there lives almost carelessly, in other words, to die without fear?! and I found myself wondering, does this actually happen? Does anyone know from experience if there is any sort or preperation for dieing before being deployed overseas to fight? 

(Does anyone else recall this? was this from the "Fahrenheit 911" movie?)


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## Kat Stevens (24 Sep 2005)

If you're asking if there's some form of brainwashing going on, the answer is no.  When you join, hopefully, you have already thought long and hard about the prospect of dieing in combat, and are ready to accept that possibility.


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## 48Highlander (24 Sep 2005)

Don't listen to him.  The truth is, the CIA shows up during week 2 of basic training to zap you with their mind control rays.  That's also how you learn to march in step, bayonette babies, and napalm women and children.  Just ask Michael Moore, he'll tell you all about it.


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## Big T (24 Sep 2005)

Thank you for your mature response 48Highlander! Much appreciated! (Jerk)

I asked the question because the soldier that was suggesting this had happened, I was lead to believe was a REAL SOLDIER! with REAL EXPERIENCES! and REAL TRAUMA! so I asked the question because maybe there is such a thing as to be PREPARED for death?! Much like Kat Stevens had suggested! but in some sort of councilling or something for the soldiers? 

I would appreciate it if you have nothing nice to say, then not to say anything at all! it does nothing to answer the question... Thank You


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## 48Highlander (24 Sep 2005)

I would appreciate it if you'd stay away from the Michael Moore school of combat and politics.  Quoting Farhenheit 9/11 as your resource is generaly not a good idea around here.

Also, we generaly appreciate it when people think for themselves.  Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Cheers!


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## Big T (24 Sep 2005)

Didn't realize it was a stupid question I guess?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Sep 2005)

Play nice children..............


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## 48Highlander (24 Sep 2005)

Big T said:
			
		

> Didn't realize it was a stupid question I guess?



Good enough.   I'm a sarcastic bastard most of the time, don't take it personaly.   The answer to your question is like Kat said, no, we don't get brainwashed to "kill people more easily" or to "throw our lives away carelessly" or to "die without fear".   Fear is a survival response, I wouldn't want to lose mine.


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## Big T (24 Sep 2005)

Thank You


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## HollywoodHitman (24 Sep 2005)

Oh God.

Do a search on here for "tinfoil hat"

Thank you,

COME AGAIN!


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## Sub_Guy (24 Sep 2005)

You can't train for that, it comes from within.  Either you have it  or you don't.  There are those who are willing to sacrafice everything they have and hopefully most of the CF feels this way.  Then there are those who don't give a damn, and take everything we have for granted, not realizing that everything they have,  is the result of someone sacraficing everything they had.


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## sironisix (24 Sep 2005)

anyone who joined the army volunteered. most people who go on operations volunteered. its more than a job its a service of your country your regiment your platoon your section your fireteam buddy next to you. i will like to be there for them as i will like them to be there for me covering my back.


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## HollywoodHitman (24 Sep 2005)

Agreed as far as the volunteering thing goes. Thats the beauty of a professional army. Ours maybe small, but for the most part we all have a sense of duty, and will do what it takes to get the job done. 

That being said, I don't know why anyone gets up in the morning and decides "I'm going to throw myself on a grenade today, so my buddies will know how much I care".......The sacrifice comes in a split second, without intent or thinking about it.......It just happens. Thats why many bravery awards are posthumous. There is a fine line between brave and foolish, but then there is also an instinctive reaction to a situation. If everyone does their job............Know what I mean? For every act of bravery that goes noticed in war, there are hundreds of actions every day, done by people who do not get recognized.

The time to hop on hand grenades is when you're young, and out with your buddies in the bar......Not in combat.

Cheers


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## Donut (24 Sep 2005)

There is an element of psychological conditioning in most military training, if you search this forum for LCol Dave Grossman, you'll find extensive discussion of his theories.

It's not so much "trained to give up there lives almost carelessly," as to make sure you kill competently and automatically.

DF


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## axeman (24 Sep 2005)

My drills shall be bloodless battles and my battles shall be bloody drills
is a quote fromsomeone bonaparte or some such .. its just mindless repition that lets you overcome your fears . you just get so into the rote training first goes the powder then the ball then .... and so forth then you just keep doing it ...


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## GO!!! (24 Sep 2005)

Also, keep in mind that Michael Moore is a master manipulator, and can misrepresent facts in such twisted ways that you forget what the original question was. 

If you are into the whole Michael Moore docu-drama thing, go rent "Farenhype 9-11" which is basically a right of center rebuttal to Moore's largely ficticious drama of similar title.

Hope this helps


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## Spr.Earl (24 Sep 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> If you're asking if there's some form of brainwashing going on, the answer is no.   When you join, hopefully, you have already thought long and hard about the prospect of dieing in combat, and are ready to accept that possibility.


Got that right Kat.


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## ghazise (24 Sep 2005)

I remember that part of Farenheit 9-11, the young soldier was raised in Oregon (hippy country) by his feminist mother, with no male influence growing up, and I don't think he ever made it out of boot-camp, (I only saw the movie once in the theatre).  And his motivation for enlisting was to prove that he was a man, and he was absolutely appalled by the cadences of killing people.  
Ultimately soldiers and Marines are paid to put rounds down range, and those rounds are to kill.  And recruits need to be indoctrinated somehow,


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## Big T (24 Sep 2005)

Hey all, I just wanted to post to say that I am not ignorant in the fact that when you sign up, you should already be in the right state of mind about the CF.   You should already be FOR the cause.. etc... I just feel that everyone has taken what I have posted all wrong! I now know it was a dumb question, but I only asked the question because of how odd I found it. If I truly believed this WAS happening, then I would not have posted the question at all.


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## Big T (24 Sep 2005)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> There is an element of psychological conditioning in most military training, if you search this forum for LCol Dave Grossman, you'll find extensive discussion of his theories.
> 
> It's not so much "trained to give up there lives almost carelessly," as to make sure you kill competently and automatically.
> 
> DF



That sounds more realistic, thanks ParaMedTech


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## Jaxson (25 Sep 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> If you're asking if there's some form of brainwashing going on, the answer is no.   When you join, hopefully, you have already thought long and hard about the prospect of dieing in combat, and are ready to accept that possibility.



Cant word it better myself, family and friends have talked to me about my wanting to join the army (infantry specifically) and they have said things like" you could be hurt, or killed" or " arent you worried what could happen" and my answer "yes, im aware of what Could happen and i have carefully thought about it long and hard, but, im also aware i could be hit by a car crossing the street or some other freak accident." 

Please dont take what im saying the wrong way, i do not wish to die, nor do i want to die, but as we all know the day will come, when everyone dies and personally i would prefer to live my life, following my dreams of serving my country well very aware of the risks that could face me every day (not just deployment). Sorry for the rambling im kind of tired and kind of under the influence of alcohol... yah super


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## FormerHorseGuard (25 Sep 2005)

no drill sgt is training his or her men or women to die. if you watched any of the real training films from USMC, they do not train to be killed but train to kill , dedicate their training to the mothers of the soldiers they kill, so the other side does not suffer.
if you ask most vet or currently serving soldiers, they are not going to die in action, that is the other guy, they are going home.

i do not know any soldiers who joined with the mind set they  were going to die.  yes there is a chance your going to die.
but if you look at any job there is the chance your going to die.
how many  corner store clerks have died while working? taxi drivers? truck drivers, railroad crews,  accordding to one show on the discovery channel,  crab fisherman  in the alaska coast area are the most likely  to die or be killed on the job.

we no longer fight wars with massive head on charges like the WW 1 battles,  we fight from well protected  equipment, have all sort of safety  equipment, vests, helmets,  to try and  give you the better chance of going home alive.


if you join the military, yes there is a chance you will die, there is the chance you will be wounded,hurt, even go missing. but the training program is not  training to you to be killed.


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## Spr.Earl (25 Sep 2005)

Big T said:
			
		

> Hey all, I just wanted to post to say that I am not ignorant in the fact that when you sign up, you should already be in the right state of mind about the CF.   You should already be FOR the cause.. etc... I just feel that everyone has taken what I have posted all wrong! I now know it was a dumb question, but I only asked the question because of how odd I found it. If I truly believed this WAS happening, then I would not have posted the question at all.


Big T the only mind game that happens is getting you trained too do your "Job" ,to make you work as a link with in your chain,your link in that chain is one of many,that's the only head game the Military uses,is too teach you to work with in your chain that is linked with many other chains but it just takes only one weak link with in your chain or any other chain and we lose.Thats why the Military has a differant way of life from Civilian life.

All Elemnets are dependant on each other in any Military and if our training is not up to snuff,we all may end up being carried by 6.


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## Gramps (25 Sep 2005)

Keep in mind that MIchael Morre uses emotion to get a response. He has done this in "Roger and Me", Bowling for Columbine" and the whole 9/11 pieice. As far as I am concerned he grandstands and gets up on his soap box.   Ferenhype 9/11 was, on the same token another piece of tripe from the other side of the fence. I wouldn't take anything from any of these docudramas (that is what they are, dramas, like a f*&$ing soap opera). They are just full of a bunch of crap form the left and the right points of view. I also think that people who serve (myself included) have to get over themselves and their egos. It is what people do not their job description or title that makes them who they are. So what? We (for the most part on this board) are in the military. Who cares? People should be remembered or judged by their character or actions and not their job and that is just what it is.......a job.....a career.... a way of life, what ever you wnat to call it. Many have done it in the past and many will do it after we are all gone but, this is just one morons opinion. Cheers.


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## 48Highlander (25 Sep 2005)

Fahrenhype 9/11 was designed to disupte Fahrenheit 9/11 and to point out all the lies and omissions made by Michael Moore in that movie.  It doesn't have any other point, nor does it attempt to justify the "war on terror".  Trying to liken the two is impossible, Moores "movie" uses lies, ommisions, half-truths, and emotionaly moving content to attempt to vilify the Bush regime and it's response to the 9/11 attacks, whereas Fahrenhype 9/11 uses facts to fill the gaps in the original.  It's like comparing apples and oranges.


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## Gramps (25 Sep 2005)

I never said that they were the same. Just equally stupid and pointless. By the way, I think that I may have enough brain cells left to understand that one was designed to dispute another. Please do NOTcondescend to me. It gets my back up.


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## 48Highlander (25 Sep 2005)

I'm not being condescending gramps, although after your last post I'm sorely tempted to start.  I was offering my opinion on why I don't consider Fahrenhype 9/11 to be "another piece of tripe from the other side of the fence".  You're more than welcome to disagree, but you should really try to avoid seing insults where there are none.


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## jmnavy (26 Sep 2005)

I did bmq with the naval reserves about a year and a half ago, so I'm not combat arms but I thought I'd take a shot at answering this.

All the training you get, the endless step-by-step repetition is done so that when the s*** hits the fan your training will kick in and you'll know what to do without hesitating.  If this was done in a moral vacuum then you could argue that's it's brainwashing, but that's not the case.  There's a huge burden of maturity placed on soldiers before hand to come to terms with the morality of killing and being killed, and there's been an increasing emphasis on this.  One of the big criticisms of the somalia inquiry was the quality of pre-deployment training and the level of leadership, in part because it allowed for an attitude to develope which didn't question orders.

"The reflex to say "yes sir" rather than to question the appropriateness of a command or policy obviously runs against the grain of free and open discussion, but it is ingrained in military discipline and culture.  However, leaders properly exercising command responsibility must recognize and assert not only their right but their duty to advise against improper actions." (Report of the Somalia Comission of Inquiry, Volume 4, The Failures of Senior Leaders) Note that this is the DND report, not Dishonoured Legacy which was the parlimentary report.

I just finished reading Shake Hands With The Devil and there were a few things in there that I think also refute the brainwashed-hardcore-kill-everything-jump-on-a-grenade attitude.  There's the story about the Canadian officer Don MacNeil who was moving refugees from the Mille Collines hotel when he, his troups and the refugees were stopped by militia.  LGen Dallaire reminded MacNeil over the radio that he was allowed to use deadly force but MacNeil instead negotiated his way out of the situation and was decorated for it.

Dallaire also talks several times about how important it is for a leader to have a good sense of humor, and how much less effective he was when he started yelling at everyone when his burden was getting to be too much.  An army general who'd rather tell jokes than yell?  Not what you'd usually picture in the brainwashing scenarios.

This is just my two cents as a naval reserve os who's been putting a lot of thought into remustering to combat arms.


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## ready to go (24 Apr 2006)

I would have to say that the 'giving your life' part of it refers to the fact that you literally belong to the military unit. When a civilian makes the decision to bear the uniform he or she is giving up civilian life to serve as an instrument in the military. The training is required so that you can aptly perform the duties required of you so you DON'T lose your life.


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