# Curious...



## arctictern (15 Jan 2005)

Why does everyone talk about getting all this "extra kit?" The money you make in the armed force is decent but I don't see how people can afford to waste their money to buy kit that they will either get sooner or later for free or have to look cool. I suppose the argument is that buying extra kit makes the job easier but you shouldn't be buying your own kit to do your job. Personally I think that people just want to stand out and be noticed, one of those "I'm obsessed with my self" things.


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## 1feral1 (15 Jan 2005)

Daryl J said:
			
		

> Why does everyone talk about getting all this "extra kit?" The money you make in the armed force is decent but I don't see how people can afford to waste their money to buy kit that they will either get sooner or later for free or have to look cool. I suppose the argument is that buying extra kit makes the job easier but you shouldn't be buying your own kit to do your job. Personally I think that people just want to stand out and be noticed, one of those "I'm obsessed with my self" things.



I had to respond. What do think Daryl, we're children or something playing silly games?

I am a professional soldier, I don't buy kit to look cool, I buy it to be more comforatable or more useful/practical that the crap sometimes provided. Anything I but for my job is tax deductable here, even trade related shows and magazines.

examples:

FMP covers
wet weather gear
winter kit (yes it gets cold here and there is no issued worthwile)
AWOL bags
field knives
LBVs and Rucks etc.

So, I don't think the LCF really has anything to do with it. 

Don't be so narrow minded.

What is your experience? Mate, not that I am slinging shyte at ya, I think thats a pretty silly post.

Playing airsoft and working in a grocery store, I don't think you have a clue what its like in the world of Defence matters.

If I am obsessed with anything its getting fed up with posts like your one above. Are you trolling here or what? I had a look at some of your posts, and a lot of them are meaningless. :


Out!

Wes


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## Inch (15 Jan 2005)

It's not always LCF (look cool factor) that is the motivation behind buying extra kit. Sometimes you just don't get the kit you need since the military can't afford to get specific kit for specific jobs. For example, the military issues a shroud cutter with a knife on the other end to pilots and aircrew. This knife is small and not serrated, it's most useful for ejection seat aircraft since it's tied to you and has the required cutter for cutting lines on your parachute should you eject.   Now, the Sea King obviously has no ejection seat, the seat belts are quite thick and it would take you probably a minute or more to cut through the seatbelt with the issued knife. Not exactly conductive to a quick egress if you're on fire or underwater with a damaged seatbelt buckle. I bought a one hand opening knife with a partly serrated blade to take care of that particular kit issue. Another example is the issued kneeboard, while it may suit flying in some aircraft, I never found it particularly useful flying helicopters, I bought a smaller kneeboard and it does the job quite nicely.

I have little doubt that the same sort of thing exists in other trades.

Of course there's always going to be "Johnny or Jane Wannalookcools" but for the most part I think people only buy the kit they need to do their job better.

Just my 2 pesos.

edit - You beat me Wes, good post.


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## devil39 (15 Jan 2005)

Daryl J said:
			
		

> Why does everyone talk about getting all this "extra kit?" The money you make in the armed force is decent but I don't see how people can afford to waste their money to buy kit that they will either get sooner or later for free or have to look cool. I suppose the argument is that buying extra kit makes the job easier but you shouldn't be buying your own kit to do your job. Personally I think that people just want to stand out and be noticed, one of those "I'm obsessed with my self" things.



Right.

It depends what you do and why you need the kit.   CF kit is often geared toward a medium level common denominator, and is not necessarily the best equipment for those who by profession may spend significant lengths of time in uncomfortable situations or environments.   Some things I have bought and would not do without:

Stealth suit top - under my cbt shirt generally, very rarely seen
Garmin Etrex GPS - spends most of its time in my pocket
MSR whisperlite internationale stove - spends most of its time in a side pocket on my ruck
good gloves - usually in pockets
Eagle industries mk V airborne holster - ok more obvious but I did not by the hot pink variant

Waiting for a dangerous operation (or maybe just getting out of the HQ)   before I work on the wife for the Dropzone Recce smock


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## Kal (15 Jan 2005)

I can't see how any 'extra kit' that I buy is a waste if it improves my effectiveness and/or comfort.


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## 1feral1 (15 Jan 2005)

devil39 said:
			
		

> Dropzone Recce smock



Too bad they did not make them in AUSCAM!   ;D

Now thats a smock.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Britney Spears (15 Jan 2005)

Wes:

I bet he's the Col. In charge of the CTS program!


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## arctictern (15 Jan 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> What do think Daryl, we're children or something playing silly games?


Dude thats exactly what I thought!!! OMG STOP READING MY MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Welsey, I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest, The title of this topic clearly states my interest and I'm looking to be educated as to why people spend extra money for kit they may or may not actually need. Granted I don't have any first hand experience but I don't come to these boards so people can make personal attacks on me.

Why would you call me narrow minded? I took the time to come to these boards, post this topic and give my opinion with the intention of getting feedback on the matter.  I didn't know you got a tax deductable, thank you for sharing this with me.



devil39, I don't have any experience with it but I guess over time you find out what works best and the things you'll listed have come in useful for you.


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## arctictern (15 Jan 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Too bad they did not make them in AUSCAM!  ;D
> 
> Now thats a smock.
> 
> ...




Everyone knows the Belgium camo is cooler then anything on the market.


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## 1feral1 (15 Jan 2005)

Daryl,

You don't even have a clue do ya. Do ya know what AUSCAM is, or the Dropzone smock for that matter? The Australian Army has not even developed a jacket/coat for its troops, and all must be private purchase with the exception of the Paras.

The smock in question is one of the best I have seen in a while.

I don't get into pissing contests with 18 yr old boys. 

Don't come aboard me for responding to a stupid post that you started in the first place! 

Remember you are the one that made the snide remark on accusing us with the 'I wanna stand out' and 'obsessed' crap. I just responded accordingly.

Read the last sentance of your first post! Thats a narrow minded remark, and you don't gotta be a university grad to figure that out.

Cop it on the chin, and carry on.


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## chrisf (15 Jan 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Too bad they did not make them in AUSCAM!   ;D
> 
> Now thats a smock.
> 
> ...



Perhaps if you were to supply them with the fabric? I'm sure they could do one for it for a minimal extra fee...


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## my72jeep (15 Jan 2005)

Well Wes I did not think any one else still kept an AWOL bag with them.(never go any where with out one)


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## 1feral1 (15 Jan 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Perhaps if you were to supply them with the fabric? I'm sure they could do one for it for a minimal extra fee...



I looked at their website. If a bunch of us got together and did a group buy, supplying them with the AUSCAM material, that would be great.

Very pricey though.

Cheers,

Wes


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## BernDawg (16 Jan 2005)

Everyone has to buy gear to do their job better.  In the CF or on the outside.  A civvie worker has to  buy everything he needs to do his job.  We just need to purchase the nice extra stuff.  If I am warm, dry and well rested (as conditions allow) I can go farther longer.  If we don't intend on becoming better soldiers then we should pack it in before we become a burden on the system.

Hey guys don't slam the CTS prog too much I remember wearing denim jackets in the winter over cotton long johns!


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## Armymedic (16 Jan 2005)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Hey guys don't slam the CTS prog too much I remember wearing denim jackets in the winter over cotton long johns!



Bang on....

Daryl,
despite the army's best effort to get us the all the personal equipment we need to do our job, there is always something new, improved or diffrent. Also the CF never buys the best, or newest gear. The most influencing factor for the CF to get us new kit is the fact allot of the soldiers are buying it for themselves. Good examples...neck gaiters, Goretex boots/socks, US Army style ranger blankets, and best example, rain gear.

I can understand though from an nonmilitary persons point of view, that talk about buying X brand rucksack and Y brand load bearing vest when the CF issues us free stuff that should be suitable for the job is strange. But if there is something out there that will make my job easier, me more comfortable or less fatigued, then by all means I'll get it.


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## gun plumber (16 Jan 2005)

I must say that my Leatherman is the best purchace that was made for me(by my wife,I might add).In my trade,sometimes its easier to climb into a turret with a multi-tool than a tool box.Less tools for the turret gremlins to steal and you avoid the "pass me the screwdriver" which leads to "F**k! I dropped it in the hull!"problem.


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## Navalsnpr (16 Jan 2005)

I guess that if the "extra kit" makes your life in the Forces better for what ever reason, then people tend to get it.

I remember buying my first ranger blanket from the American PX in West Germany in '89 and now they are issued.

There are a lot of products supplied by civilian manufactures that are great additions to augment our existing kit; and there are a couple of companies in Canada that cater to making such items for the Military such as Pro-am and CP.


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## arctictern (16 Jan 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Daryl, I don't get into pissing contests with 18 yr old boys.
> 
> Don't come aboard me for responding to a stupid post that you started in the first place!
> 
> ...



The last sentence of my post states that people buy stuff for the cool factor and I was not refering to the every person that has bought extra kit. After reading these forums I've found that a lot of the kit people are buying is mainly for the cool factor. Wesley, you buy your gear because it helps you do your job, and many others do as well but some don't. A lot of you buy extra gear because it helps you do your job more effectively but is that the case all the time? That's what I want to find out. 

Can you tell me that every piece of extra kit bought by a soldier was bought only for comfort and usefulness? Wesley, you're one man and you don't speak for the entire army, you speak for yourself and I respect that. So what I'm 18? What difference would it make if I'm 18, 8, or 80? People always say to respect adults but I always say to respect everyone.


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## gun plumber (16 Jan 2005)

I can honestly say that every piece of kit I have bought is for usefulness and not LCF.When your out in the field,LCF might be important to some,but comfort and being able to do your job that little bit easier is whats important to me.
For myself,I can say,that alot of the stuff I have bought was to fill the gap created by the CF.Where I'm at and my posn also has a lot to with it as well.As a member of a non combat trade posted to a static posn,I don't recieve all the glamor kit that say a infantry type who is always on the go.So,until I move on to a posn that is a little more "adventurous" I will have to continue to purchace kit for my job.
Another big reason for extra kit,is that a lot of the issued stuff has limitations in usefullness or design flaws.Thats not to say that our issued stuff is garbage.Our kit is some of the best in the world,but some is still stuck in the ""Koera" era mindset.It all looks good to the casual user,but practical experience is a cruel teacher,abeit a good one.If you ask anyone here I'm sure they could tell you why they purchaced individual pieces ie-fleece touque,hydration systems,etc.to replace the issued equivelent.I would be more than happy to relate my experiences and thoughts on this matter if you really want to learn"why".
Just one point about your post-You tend to be a tad aggresive in responding.Yes,it's point\counter-point,but,one big thing you must realize is,that you have come to a fourum that is full of professional soldiers,and you,with no experience,cannot relate fully to the topics at hand.
Take you licks,learn from them,and carry on.
All the best
Arte et Marte


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## Highland Lad (16 Jan 2005)

I have to confess it...

I was once a young, fresh private and I (gulp) purchased a knife based solely on LCF... There, I said it, and I don't even feel chills...

IMHO, if you see someone in the field festooned with Rambo-type knives or any other fancy-dandy HSLD kit, they have yet to hump it any real distance, or haven't yet had a run-in with a kind NCO who will show them the light. Experience is the best teacher of all, and the first sign of maturity in a young soldier is usually the dumping of extra kit in favour of one or two pieces that really work. I can remember one young lad showing up at a range practice with M9 bayonet taped to one shoulder strap, fighting knife on the other, armoured compass housing in one pocket, combat wallet, camo cigarette box, jump knife, etc, etc. He looked like a cover model for SOF, with all this brand new gear everywhere, and got a big laugh from all of us.

That being said, some soldiers are always experimenting with what will help them do the job better, more comfortably, and forums like this really do help to avoid spending hard-earned $$$ on crap.

Remember the old maxim - "Any fool can be uncomfortable (and usually is), but it takes an idiot to be needlessly uncomfortable." (but always remember, too, that if you brought it, you are responsible for making sure it gets to you - and for those of us who travel by black cadillac, that means you put it in the big green backpack, along with everything else you or the section, platoon, company, etc, need.


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## gun plumber (16 Jan 2005)

To play devil's advocate(by no means aggreeing with the initial post by DJ)you could say that all of the kitshop stuff has a LCF.That,coupled with the practicality of the kit, in essence is the reason we purchace it.How many times do new recruits purchace kit just because they have seen someone on TV using it,or people senior to them using it,and say to themselves "I want it!"
I can almost relate to this,as a young gunner,on a tasking with the Field Arty school in Gagetown.Everyone of the pers I worked with all wore american alpha liners.I went out and purchaced on on the "LCF" but soon realized the real value of that kit.
Please keep in mind that I DO NOT aggree with DJ's initial post.Just playing devil's advocate here.


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## R031button (16 Jan 2005)

Daryl J said:
			
		

> The last sentence of my post states that people buy stuff for the cool factor and I was not refering to the every person that has bought extra kit. After reading these forums I've found that a lot of the kit people are buying is mainly for the cool factor. Wesley, you buy your gear because it helps you do your job, and many others do as well but some don't. A lot of you buy extra gear because it helps you do your job more effectively but is that the case all the time? That's what I want to find out.
> 
> Can you tell me that every piece of extra kit bought by a soldier was bought only for comfort and usefulness? Wesley, you're one man and you don't speak for the entire army, you speak for yourself and I respect that. So what I'm 18? What difference would it make if I'm 18, 8, or 80? People always say to respect adults but I always say to respect everyone.



 Of course he doesn't speak for the entire army; what he does speak for is an experianced soldier. Show some respect when the senior members post here, most if not all have been there and done that and know their job from first hand experiance. I persoanlly don't see how you can be so agressive with your opinion as you're not in the army, so you don't really know anything at all about what your talking about. More to the point, how can you be upset about him giving a generalization when your asking for a generalization about kit?

 The only common new "guichi" kit I see often are new gloves, stealth suits, and new valise straps.


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## 1feral1 (16 Jan 2005)

Daryl J said:
			
		

> Personally I think that people just want to stand out and be noticed, one of those "I'm obsessed with my self" things.



I really think you are trying to stir the shyte pot here Daryl.

Your quote refers to  all personnel who buy non-issure items, and I would consider most soldiers professionals. 

LCF maybe for cadets or airsofters.

Like I said cop it on the chin and carry on.


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## Infanteer (16 Jan 2005)

Daryl, your question has been asked and is being answered.  If I were you, I'd sit back and read the responses instead of trying to defend a valid question which, due to your lack of any military experience, was worded in a poor way.


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## arctictern (16 Jan 2005)

R031button said:
			
		

> Of course he doesn't speak for the entire army; what he does speak for is an experianced soldier. Show some respect when the senior members post here, most if not all have been there and done that and know their job from first hand experiance. I persoanlly don't see how you can be so agressive with your opinion as you're not in the army, so you don't really know anything at all about what your talking about. More to the point, how can you be upset about him giving a generalization when your asking for a generalization about kit?



Honestly It's that I don't take kindly to people who offend me when they have never even met me and check your private messages R031button.


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## arctictern (16 Jan 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Daryl, your question has been asked and is being answered.  If I were you, I'd sit back and read the responses instead of trying to defend a valid question which, due to your lack of any military experience, was worded in a poor way.




I searched but I never find anything on it, I'm probably just using the wrong words for the search.


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## chrisf (16 Jan 2005)

I think the thing is, with perhaps the exception of the greenest privates, kit isn't bought because you saw it in a store and thought it was cool... kit is bought because you were out in the field, had a problem, and suffered because of it, and decided to do somthing about it when you came home.

As somone pointed out, if you bring it with you, you've got to carry it, no sense in carrying anything simply to look cool... even for those of us that bring truck-sacks...

Aside from that, much of what "looks cool" to air-softers and cadets did at some point have a functional value...


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## 1feral1 (16 Jan 2005)

Daryl J said:
			
		

> Honestly It's that I don't take kindly to people who offend me when they have never even met me and check your private messages R031button.



Can we lock this thread up, as its going no where fast, and this idiot just wants an audience, and is just trolling.

Regards,

Wes


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## Yeoman (16 Jan 2005)

I've seen posts about people asking about stuff for lcf, but then they got smacked and realised you don't need something that's shiny and green, it' just needs to be dull and green. but I haven't actually seen anybody post on here using something for just the "look cool factor".
most stuff that is issued I still hate it. mind you it is a thousand times better then webgear, or a weapon you can't shoulder properly because of body armour, or having horribly bad pains in your feet because you're too hard to change over from the hockey pucks (I did that, then realised how bad that was for me).
most guys that do this are the new privates fresh from battleschool. however you need these guys in order to maybe see this stuff get issued at some point. I have had some high ranker's come up to me before and ask me if the thing I was using that was non issued was actually effective, course I told em it was. how can you expect these super dooper shiny pieces of kit get issued out to us if you never have the young private that tries it out to see if it works?
I'm with sig op on this; that's why I bought the stuff I wear because the issued stuff didn't work in the field.
Greg


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## Ex-Dragoon (16 Jan 2005)

I for one agree with the others I have never bought kit for the LCF I bought kit to help me do my job and make my life a little easier. Daryl in the future watch your wording, had you done so initially all of this could have been avoided.

Wes as requested. Locked!


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## arctictern (16 Jan 2005)

I noticed some stuff on wheelersonline.com what would be useful on the field but the rest of it is all for TCF. I can easily imagine soldiers buying things like the cadpat wallets just because they are cadpat, which is just a waste of money in my opinion... Unless you need a wallet of course.


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