# "Canadian general vents anger over bombings to Afghan village elders"



## mariomike (28 Sep 2009)

"If we don't start getting some serious co-operation from the people ... then I wonder whether or not it's worth another Canadian life," Vance said.:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090928/national/afghan_cda_vance_ied


----------



## X-mo-1979 (28 Sep 2009)

Let me guess...They came down from the mountains at night....They dont live in our villiage,they come here and plant bombs and leave...

Funny thing is every village says the same thing.


----------



## Cloud Cover (28 Sep 2009)

Ive got answer for him. Kandahar and Afghanistan are not, and never were, worth a single Canadian life. Taking the fight to our enemies in their own back yard is, and always will be, worth it in costs of life and limb. The real question is, are the people we are fighting the same people as our enemy, or the uncertain friend of our real enemy - whoever they are.


----------



## kratz (28 Sep 2009)

As quoted in the Ottawa Citizen, the MND supports BGen Vance's message to the villagers. As predictable, the NDP have their own spin on this.


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Sep 2009)

I like BGen Vance, he's got the balls to stand up and say what everyone is thinking. The Afghans want our money, but don't like the strings that come with it.


----------



## Infanteer (28 Sep 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Let me guess...They came down from the mountains at night....They dont live in our villiage,they come here and plant bombs and leave...
> 
> Funny thing is every village says the same thing.



Once we start hearing "They came from the mountains so we got our guns and told them to leave", then we'll know we're winning.  Until then....


----------



## X-mo-1979 (28 Sep 2009)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Once we start hearing "They came from the mountains so we got our guns and told them to leave", then we'll know we're winning.  Until then....



Wouldn't that be great eh?haul into a KLE and they hand over detainee's and body parts.
Here's to hoping.


----------



## Infanteer (28 Sep 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be great eh?haul into a KLE and they hand over detainee's and body parts.
> Here's to hoping.



That's how the American's "won" in Iraq (although I'm still convinced that it was more due to the Iraqi populace getting sick of a civil war) - they turned the Sunni tribes against AQ.

It speaks to this question - is a strange ANA soldier likely to afford you any greater perception of local security than a strange ISAF soldier when your conception of nationality doesn't really go beyond your local fields or district?  

Something encapsulated in this article

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200810/afghan

I don't really know the answer and I wonder if the tribal dynamic in Afghanistan would be conducive to something akin to an "Anbar Awakening".


----------



## X-mo-1979 (28 Sep 2009)

Thanks for the article.That is one well written truthful article (in my opinion anyway).



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> (although I'm still convinced that it was more due to the Iraqi populace getting sick of a civil war)



Me too.In Iraq these people wanted normal life's again.
Remind me of a conversation I had with an American officer in Afghanistan.He had been in Iraq previously and said that Afghanistan was much worse.He told me once he got mortared in Iraq and the Iraqi civilians were actually approaching him and telling him where the mortar team was.I have yet to see that in Afghanistan,things are improving however.

The best sentence in that article you posted:
"you can’t beat a rural insurgency without a rural security presence. "
In the long run we will win over the population.Not to mention the Taliban attacking from the outside of the villages are prime target for CAS/Arty,AND reduces collateral damage keeping the civilians happy yet again (not that we do much/any collateral anyway). 

We also have to be ready to deal with the Taliban "civilians".


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Sep 2009)

"NDP defence critic Jack Harris, however, said that Vance's outburst was "a very surprising reaction from a general who is supposedly trying to win the hearts and minds of the people he is trying to protect in Afghanistan."

What happened to Dawn Black?


----------



## Jammer (29 Sep 2009)

She knew less than Jack Harris.
I sent him and email last night asking him what his experience in Afghanistan was and what gave him the right to comment on something he did not witness.
No answer yet


----------



## vonGarvin (29 Sep 2009)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Once we start hearing "They came from the mountains so we got our guns and told them to leave", then we'll know we're winning.  Until then....


That has happened over there.  There's a reason there aren't too many IED attacks in Arghandab district.  (OK, "not as many" as in Zharey/Panjwayi)


----------



## vonGarvin (29 Sep 2009)

If I have learned one thing in my military career, it is this.  Never EVER piss off Jonathan Vance.  EVER!  He has God-like wrath, with a very well-developed intellect to go with it.  His anger is never pure-emotion.  It is well-thought out, and there is always a reason for it.  This is the perfect example of the difference between "us" (NATO et al) and "them" (Taliban, HiG, et al).  If "they" get pissed at you, they kill you.  If "we" get pissed, according to NDP defence critic Jack Harris, we act nice and play nice.  In other words, all carrot, all the time.  

Then Jonathan Vance comes along.  He understands VERY well the theory of Carrot and Stick, and he's not afraid to apply either in liberal quantities.  The difference is this: if Deh-e-Bagh keeps allowing "them" to plant bombs and the like, then Deh-e-Bagh will receive "least favoured village status", and the rival village across the road/wadi/desert/whatever will start to get "the goods".  

So, BZ to BGen Vance.  I sure as hell hope that his successors follow on with his "tough side/rough side" attitude.  He's a true gentleman, and he knows how to fight this fight.

EDIT TO ADD:


> Twenty minutes after the shura, the local police chief and representative of the National Directorate of Security offered up a potential suspect in the bombing. The man, who had family ties to the Taliban, was taken into custody for questioning.


 Hopefully this means that the elders of Deh-e-Bagh are getting the message.


----------



## HollywoodHitman (29 Sep 2009)

OldSoldier said:
			
		

> What happened to Dawn Black?



She's now Provincial NDP vs Federal. She has her eyes on the Premier's office no doubt.


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Sep 2009)

...on this one, via the stopwar.ca blog:


> Some people have issues with anger. For many, their anger makes them unable to carry on healthy relationships or hold a job. A few, however, find a niche in society where their issues are afforded more tolerance, such as professional tennis. Or the military's officer corps ....  Vance's patronizing words and negotiation-by-threat seem ill-suited to improve what are evidently already strained relations with the elders.



WTF?  And I guess the Taliban's approach to "winning hearts and minds" is better?  Beheadings?  Amputations?  Threats in the night?  Blowing up buses full of civvies?


----------



## X-mo-1979 (30 Sep 2009)

Imagine if they seen one of us turn a Taliban to red mist.Bet that would be the wrong approach as well.

How does one become expert in this country on something you have never seen,or been to?
I'm gonna write CTV/CBC and see if I can get my own show on all about civil law.I don't have a dam clue what civil law is all about,but if I talk about it I must know what I'm talking about.

Stop war....theres a awesome idea.betcha that's gonna happen.
Should start my own blog,stopbreathing.ca .See if I can convince half these Canadian Hippies to die by telling them breathing is destroying the earth.


----------



## COBRA-6 (30 Sep 2009)

C'mon X-mo, you know it's simpler than that! If only the government would listen to stopwar's solutions: 

No military = No war! If we don't have an Army then we won't be tempted to use it. 

Just like no Police Dept = no crime, and no Fire Department = no fires! 

See, it's simple! If only us warmongers would listen...


----------



## Infanteer (30 Sep 2009)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ...on this one, via the stopwar.ca blog:



That guy's facts are all messed up - everyone knows it was Colin Farrell who portrayed Alexander the Great, not Brad Pitt....gawd.  :


----------



## X-mo-1979 (30 Sep 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> C'mon X-mo, you know it's simpler than that! If only the government would listen to stopwar's solutions:
> 
> No military = No war! If we don't have an Army then we won't be tempted to use it.
> 
> ...



haha.
Is it bad to pray for a invasion of Canada?Or a large scale terrorist attack?The youth of this country have been coddled their whole existence.Let's see if they have the same idea's when their parents are trapped in under a blown up building
and enemy are raping and killing civilians on a mass scale.Ideals are awesome.They make good movies.

Stopwar is the product of the "you can be anything Liberal school teacher".Guess what kid...you'll never be an astronaut,your colour blind so you can't fly a fighter jet,your too fat to be a cop...

Keep dreaming kids.Keep making crafts,and banners for protests.meanwhile the evil enemy military people will be out putting a stop to certain wars.

Infanteer....I know first thing I noticed.They can't even get hollywood right.Morons.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (30 Sep 2009)

Midnight Rambler said:
			
		

> If I have learned one thing in my military career, it is this.  Never EVER piss off Jonathan Vance.  EVER!  He has God-like wrath, with a very well-developed intellect to go with it.  His anger is never pure-emotion.



Amen <Dave sub-consciously scratches scars>


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Oct 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> C'mon X-mo, you know it's simpler than that! If only the government would listen to stopwar's solutions:
> 
> No military = No war! If we don't have an Army then we won't be tempted to use it.
> 
> ...



Funny you should mention this - it's already being looked into by the NDP:


> A federal New Democrat has teamed up with a Liberal to propose the creation of an army of peace professionals within a new federal department to resolve violent conflicts within Canada and around the world.
> 
> The idea was introduced through new legislation tabled by NDP MP Bill Siksay, seconded by Liberal MP Jim Karygiannis. Mr. Siksay said the proposed department of peace could change the role of the Canadian military, but not necessarily replace it.
> 
> ...


----------



## vonGarvin (1 Oct 2009)

Ah, the Utopians...


> "The inclination to seek a non-violent solution to conflict isn't always the first action that people take in our society and around the world." ....


Actually, in both Iraq and Afghanistan, non-violent solutions were indeed the first action taken by the west.

In Iraq, following the invasion of Kuwait, non-violent solutions were pursued for quite some time.  Following the cease-fire in 1991, there were 12 years of (mostly) non-violent solutions pursued.  Unfortunately, some (*cough* FRANCE *cough*) were profitting from the oil for food scandal, thus undermining the non-violent solutions.  Of course, GW Bush et al went on shaky int of WMDs; however, President Midnight Rambler would simply have pointed to the existing UN resolutions and the terms of the cease fire agreement as "Jus ad Bellum".  Even the Taliban government was given pleas from the West to turn over OBL.  They refused.  So, yet again, we have the Utopians.

The formation of a "Department of Peace" is laughable.  The idea of an army is to enforce national foreign policy.  To suggest that some sort of pseudo-Peace Corps would deploy to "enforce" Peace is....is.... I don't know.  Words fail me!


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 Oct 2009)

BGen Vance just gave a rather lengthy, very _effective_ interview on CBC Radio's "The Current." A podcast should be available here later today.

He easily handled a few rather pointed questions re: e.g. Senators Kenny's recent, ill-informed comments and he deftly turned a comment about "Canadians react badly to casualties" to a "win" in which he emphasized the bond between Canadians and their military.

We got accustomed to having a highly skilled _communicator_ in the top job. BGen Vance is, in my opinion, "better" at it than Gen. Hiller and that skill, and the calmness which, of necessity, accompanies it, makes him a very impressive communicator and, therefore, a "comer" in the senior officers' sweepstakes.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2009)

This, from Agence France-Presse:


> The military situation in Afghanistan is *"serious"* and *"desperate,"* the top Canadian commander in the country, General Jonathan Vance, warned in an interview with CBC television station.
> 
> *"It's a serious, desperate situation. It's a major emergency,"* he said.
> 
> ...



As those smarter than I say, anything to sell papers...


----------



## vonGarvin (15 Oct 2009)

I listened to the interview.  milnews is correct: they focus on one part of the interview, take it on its own, no context, and scream "THE SKY IS FALLING".  What's next?  "Panzers on the Seine?"  :


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Oct 2009)

It's the news and "No news is good news" "Good news is not news" and most of what BGen Vance offered was (cautious) good news.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (15 Oct 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> C'mon X-mo, you know it's simpler than that! If only the government would listen to stopwar's solutions:
> 
> No military = No war! If we don't have an Army then we won't be tempted to use it.
> 
> ...



They should start a special organization for  "containment of x-mo-1979 (warmonger) gets a terminal disease at a old age".Nothing but evening news cast of me punching people at gala's etc. ;D


----------



## deborahsmith (15 Oct 2009)

I work at CBC Television and I'd like to talk with soldiers who have fought in Afghanistan. I'm looking for someone who can answer questions from the public about what it's like to be a soldier in Afghanistan.  
thanks, deb
Please call me at 416 205 5711 or e-mail me at deborah.smith@cbc.ca if you would like to find out more.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2009)

deborahsmith said:
			
		

> I work at CBC Television and I'd like to talk with soldiers who have fought in Afghanistan. I'm looking for someone who can answer questions from the public about what it's like to be a soldier in Afghanistan.
> thanks, deb
> Please call me at 416 205 5711 or e-mail me at deborah.smith@cbc.ca if you would like to find out more.



Welcome to Milnet.ca, Deb.  You've come to a place where there's a LOT of good information to be had.

To deal with some anxiety some serving or former members might have about dealing with the media, you _may_ want to consider sharing a bit more information regarding what you're looking for, and how you're going to use the material - what the general angle of the story is, the format of the final product (short news clips, a longer feature, a documentary, town hall guest, something else), what program you're working for, and who else you've spoken with or want to speak to.  I know you don't want to give anything significant away to the competition, but even a bit more might be welcome.


----------



## PMedMoe (15 Oct 2009)

Not to mention, anyone who might wish to speak to the press should seek guidance from their CofC and/or Public Affairs Officer.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (15 Oct 2009)

She asked where she could post this on here.So I just copied and pasted it.


I'm working on a new show with Mark Kelley (starts oct 26 on Newsworld) and this is for a 4 minute segment on his show.
Every couple of weeks we'll take someone out to a mall or a park...some public place.  We put up a sign saying "Ask Me Anything. I'm a soldier /  I was a soldier  and I've been to Afghanistan." And we give the public a chance to sit and talk about anything they want with you.  I'm doing one next week with a nurse who's had the swine flu, and we're going to a shopping mall where people can ask her questions about what it's like to be sick, and also, if they should get a vaccine, etc. etc. Whatever people want to ask.
I'm looking for someone who's been to AFghanistan and will answer questions honestly and openly.  I have been in touch with Public Affairs for the Forces and they are helping find someone, but, I'm also looking for someone who doesn't need their stamp of approval. 
let me know what you think.  i can tell you more, if you want.
thanks for responding.  Is there a place I can post my note I sent to you?
thanks again, deb  416 205 5711 (call collect)


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2009)

Thanks for that X-mo-1979 & PMedMoe....


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Oct 2009)

I got a transcript of the Vance interview, and calculated how much of the 20 minutes ended up in the follow-up stories mentioned above. The magic number, based on word count:

*2 per cent*

Impressive, eh?   :  Something you may want to keep in mind when you read stories based on "Bloggins made the statement during an interview with ABCD news."

A bit more here.


----------



## Roy Harding (17 Oct 2009)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I got a transcript of the Vance interview, and calculated how much of the 20 minutes ended up in the follow-up stories mentioned above. The magic number, based on word count:
> 
> *2 per cent*
> 
> ...



At the beginning of the first Gulf War, I was interviewed (with the CO's approval) by a local television station.  I had recently returned from Iran and Iraq (deployed with UNIIMOG - not the war), and was the closest thing they could find to someone with "recent experience" in the area.

The interview went fine, took about 10 minutes - I actually had a good time, felt that I had put my point of view across fairly well, and that I had "connected" with the interviewer.

When I saw the TEN SECONDS of the interview that was actually aired, I couldn't believe it.  I came across as a war monger (which I certainly WAS - but I hadn't expressed that in the interview), and basically a "knuckle dragger lookin' to give someone a good kickin' ".  Not at all what had taken place during the interview itself.  Some "creative" editing was involved.

Use caution when approached by the media.  The PAFFO folks are, in my experience, MUCH more switched now on than they were back then - and should usually be able to alleviate this kind of thing.  Don't do an interview without one at your side.


----------



## ballz (18 Oct 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> but, I'm also looking for someone who doesn't need their stamp of approval.



Not sure that exists... At the end of the day, anybody who agrees to this would be seen by most viewers as an ambassador for the CF. You'd have to be stupid to walk into this, knowing the plan is to publish you "as a Canadian soldier that's been to Afghanistan," without approval and guidance from your CoC and the PA officers.


----------



## mellian (18 Oct 2009)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Funny you should mention this - it's already being looked into by the NDP:



Reminds me of the Ministry of Peace in Babylon 5, or even n 1984. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Peace


----------



## X-mo-1979 (18 Oct 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> Not sure that exists... At the end of the day, anybody who agrees to this would be seen by most viewers as an ambassador for the CF. You'd have to be stupid to walk into this, knowing the plan is to publish you "as a Canadian soldier that's been to Afghanistan," without approval and guidance from your CoC and the PA officers.


I also asked Mrs Smith about that as well,and expressed that concern.She was quick to reply that in no way would she be trying to get someone in trouble with the COC or have one person who was released there as well as a PAFFO approved.Although she did wonder if a person whom was no longer in the military would be able to express things a serving soldier would not.Which I agree with.I first thought the same as yourself,however that is not her intentions.


----------



## ballz (18 Oct 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I also asked Mrs Smith about that as well,and expressed that concern.She was quick to reply that in no way would she be trying to get someone in trouble with the COC or have one person who was released there as well as a PAFFO approved.Although she did wonder if a person whom was no longer in the military would be able to express things a serving soldier would not.Which I agree with.I first thought the same as yourself,however that is not her intentions.



I'm not trying to find ill of her intentions or warn anybody of a witchhunt by any means. It's just that some of us aren't all that gifted with the tongue and could easily reflect negetively on the CF no matter what our or the newscasters intentions. I for one am way too hot-headed and exciteable to do something like this and have it turn out for the better... but I know that about myself, some people don't.

I know Mrs. Smith just wants a raw, uncensored version of the answers for her piece, which is great and all, but the CF can't do that for a TON of reasons, right from PA to OPSEC and beyond.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (18 Oct 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to find ill of her intentions or warn anybody of a witchhunt by any means. It's just that some of us aren't all that gifted with the tongue and could easily reflect negetively on the CF no matter what our or the newscasters intentions. I for one am way too hot-headed and exciteable to do something like this and have it turn out for the better... but I know that about myself, some people don't.
> 
> I know Mrs. Smith just wants a raw, uncensored version of the answers for her piece, which is great and all, but the CF can't do that for a TON of reasons, right from PA to OPSEC and beyond.



Thanks for the enlightenment.


----------

