# A place to discuss Jack Layton's Legacy objectively



## ballz (25 Aug 2011)

I started this topic seperate from the "thoughts and prayers" one because, quite frankly, this is thread is not about thoughts and prayers and it would be inappropriate to post this specific article in that thread. I figured I'd "wait until the funeral was over before I trample on a man's grave."

I will post this article and throw in my own 2 cents. Shared with the usual caveats.

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/Layton+doesn+warrant+state+funeral/5303388/story.html



> Layton doesn't warrant a state funeral
> TwitterEmailBarbara Kay, National Post · Aug. 25, 2011 | Last Updated: Aug. 25, 2011 3:05 AM ET
> 
> It seems the rules are changing on who gets a state funeral in Canada. Jack Layton never led a government, never sat in cabinet and never served as governor-general. According to protocol and tradition, he should not be getting one. Why is he?
> ...



First let me say that the author of this article seems a little too bitter that people are moving away from religious funerals for my liking. She seems to be hinting that a religious funeral is a "dignified" way to go that all people should want, which is fine, but it has nothing to do with her main point in this article. :

I have to admit, I have found the "fuss" over Jack's death a bit much. I was taken back as much as anyone when I saw the pictures of a tanned skeleton announcing his "leave of absence," which I personally took as an announcement of "I just got mvoed to the front of the line." And I was taken back by how quickly the cancer killed him. However, I feel there are a lot of heartstrings being played on, and a lot of it is politically motivated which is making me sick, and I think some of it is even orchestrated by Jack himself.

So what do you believe in 10 years Jack Layton be remembered for? 20 years? I personally wonder if the NDP's election results will prove to change the country's political playing field for a long time, or if we will be back to the "normal" political playing field after the next election. Sadly, I am leaning towards Jack's death being the downfall of everything he had achieved, which is admittedly a lot, and it would be nice to see the BQ remain silent, but it won't even be remembered in 10 years time if it gets reversed without actually bringing any real changes.


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## Edward Campbell (25 Aug 2011)

See here.

Re: the state funeral - I think PM Harper's political instincts were spot on. Like it or not there has been a HUGE outpouring of public 'grief,' some (much?) of the flames fanned by a fawning media. The PM's offer of a state funeral and his participation in it silences almost all his critics.

But it is a _Princess Di_ moment and a week from now we wil turn again to other matters.

No one, not even Layton, can hope to repeat his QC breakthrough unless it is by winning the government, and that's not in the cards in 2015. The main effect of Layton's passing will be to highlight the paucity of front bench talent in the NDP. I suspect we are going to see some fierce infighting between the right (Mulcair, Stoffer, etc) and left (Davies _et al_) wings of the NDP and I don't have any idea about who might win.

The big winners are the Liberals - disarray on their left wing means that can focus on the centre, into which Harper has moved.


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## GAP (25 Aug 2011)

I don't think anything is going to overcome Brad Wall, especially the Sask NDP....but in Manitoba it may be the life preserver the NDP need, and they will grasp it with all 4 hands.....(that's counting the  2 that were in our pockets and the one in big unions pocket

Prairie provinces head into elections weighing impact of Layton's death
JENNIFER GRAHAM REGINA— The Canadian Press Wednesday, Aug. 24, 2011 7:30PM EDT
Article Link

With the outpouring of emotion for Jack Layton, political observers on the Prairies wonder if the federal NDP leader's untimely death will serve to galvanize the party's support in two provinces heading to the polls this fall.

Manitoba NDP Premier Greg Selinger faces his closest challenger, Progressive Conservative Leader Hugh McFadyen, on Oct. 4. Saskatchewan Opposition NDP Leader Dwain Lingenfelter is challenging Saskatchewan Party Premier Brad Wall on Nov. 7. 

“I don't think that anyone wants to think of what sort of politics might emerge in the short-term out of the sadness that we're all feeling,” said veteran Manitoba New Democrat Bill Blaikie, who was first elected to the House of Commons in 1979 and left in 2008 to run provincially. He won a seat and was named to cabinet, but is not running in the October election.

“Everybody ... who is involved in the campaign will be inspired to campaign just a little harder ... having Jack for an example as someone who in spite of obvious personal medical difficulties soldiered on,” Mr. Blaikie said. “As I heard someone say ... ‘you know the next time I think about whether I just want to canvass one more block or do one more pamphlet drop or whatever the case may be, I just think of Jack Layton and how he persevered.”’ 
More on link


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## ballz (25 Aug 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Re: the state funeral - I think PM Harper's political instincts were spot on. Like it or not there has been a HUGE outpouring of public 'grief,' some (much?) of the flames fanned by a fawning media. The PM's offer of a state funeral and his participation in it silences almost all his critics.



I agree with you, but it makes my teeth grind that a state funeral was awarded as a politically-motivated decision, much less one that involves tugging on heartstrings. Both sides of this s**t should be ashamed, but then again it seems that Jack wanted his death to be a tool that the NDP could use :facepalm:


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## Northalbertan (25 Aug 2011)

I'll give it up to Mr. Layton for being a strong leader for his party, but the polices he and his party put forward made him no friend to Western Canada.  Or for that matter any part of Canada.  He had a tendency to jump in bed with anyone or organization which brought him closer to power (the whole coalition of the NDP, Lieberals, and the Bloc).  I had to wonder what price he willing to have Canada pay to put him into the PM's office.

Nobody want's anyone to go the way he did but frankly I am glad he is not involved in our political spectrum any longer.  I would much rather have had him leave politics in another manner (political scandal would have worked for me) but the media had such a love affair with the man that even visiting a massage parlour where questionable services were provided could not bring him down.  Where was the investigative journalism then?  

I guess for me it comes down to integrity.  I don't think Jack had enough.


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## DBA (25 Aug 2011)

The funeral does seem a bit overdone to me as well. One good thing is I looked up the list of Past State Funerals and researched a few of the names which made for some interesting reading. 

Not sure he will have much of a legacy as I don't see the NDP gaining enough outside of Quebec to be in contention for forming the government.


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## frank1515 (25 Aug 2011)

I'm in the opinion that Leaders of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (HMLO) should get State Funerals. Most people underestimate the imporantace of HMLO, but it is in fact one of the most important aspect of our Parliamentary system. To quote the Rt. Hon. John Diefenbaker:


"If Parliament is to be preserved as a living institution His Majesty's Loyal Opposition must fearlessly perform its functions. When it properly discharges them the preservation of our freedom is assured. The reading of history proves that freedom always dies when criticism ends. It upholds and maintains the rights of minorities against majorities. It must be vigilant against oppression and unjust invasions by the Cabinet of the rights of the people. It should supervise all expenditures and prevent over-expenditure by exposing to the light of public opinion wasteful expenditures or worse. It finds fault; it suggests amendments; it asks questions and elicits information; it arouses, educates and molds public opinion by voice and vote. It must scrutinize every action by the government and in doing so prevents the short-cuts through democratic procedure that governments like to make."


Source: Hon. John G. Diefenbaker, "_The Role of the Opposition in Parliament_," Address to the Empire Club of Canada, Toronto, 27 October 1949.

John Diefenbaker explains this extremely well, and if we are to honour Prime Ministers and serving Cabinet members with State Funerals, then we should also honour serving Leaders of the Loyal Opposition.

My  :2c:

EDIT: Fixed the quotation marks.


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## ballz (25 Aug 2011)

I don't think many people here will argue that HMLO is an important part of parliament, but I for one don't agree that serving as the Leader of the Opposition should get you a state funeral.

With that, Jack Layton never even actually served as Leader of the Opposition. He was the leader of the party that won the right to be HMLO, but he never served in parliament as Leader of the Opposition.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have read a bit more before I spoke... someone correct me, I believe I may be wrong. Was he Leader of the Opposition for one (June 2) session in Parliament?


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## frank1515 (25 Aug 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I don't think many people here will argue that HMLO is an important part of parliament, but I for one don't agree that serving as the Leader of the Opposition should get you a state funeral.
> 
> With that, Jack Layton never even actually served as Leader of the Opposition. He was the leader of the party that won the right to be HMLO, but he never served in parliament as Leader of the Opposition.
> 
> EDIT: Perhaps I should have read a bit more before I spoke... someone correct me, I believe I may be wrong. Was he Leader of the Opposition for one (June 2) session in Parliament?



I think you are right, Ballz. He was Leader of HMLO when the Government voted on the back-to-work legislation for Canada Post (If my memory serves me well).


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## Pusser (25 Aug 2011)

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> Nobody want's anyone to go the way he did but frankly I am glad he is not involved in our political spectrum any longer.  I would much rather have had him leave politics in another manner (political scandal would have worked for me) but the media had such a love affair with the man that even visiting a massage parlour where questionable services were provided could not bring him down.  Where was the investigative journalism then?
> 
> I guess for me it comes down to integrity.  I don't think Jack had enough.



I don't think a political scandal would ever have happened with Jack Layton and I strongly disagree with your assertion that he didn't have enough integrity.  Jack Layton was teeming with integrity.  The man was honest and always stood up for what he believed in.  I have no time for most of his policies and it will likely be a cold day in Hell before I ever vote for the federal NDP (I did vote NDP in BC, but that is an *entirely different* kettle of fish), but it is unfair to doubt his honesty, integrity or commitment.  As a person he set an example that all can admire, regardless of how misguided and crazy some of the planks in his platform were.

If there's a real problem in the NDP, it's the likes of Nicole Turmel, who has already shown herself to be lacking in integrity.

I also think that Layton will be talked about for many years to come.  We still hear of Ed Broadbent from time to time, but when was the last time anyone mentioned Audrey McLaughlin or Alexa McDonough?

On the subject of a state funeral I am of two minds.  On the one hand I can see it as being appropriate, but I have concerns about the precedent it sets.  The only other Leader of the Opposition to ever die in office was Laurier, but he had also been Prime Minister, so he was entitled anyway.  The truly scary question would have been what would have happened had Gilles Duceppe died in office (other than  dancing in the streets throughout most of Canada  ;D).  If Jack Layton's state funeral sets a precedent, will we have to give the same honour to a future separatist who happens to become the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (pray that never happens again).


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## frank1515 (25 Aug 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> If Jack Layton's state funeral sets a precedent, will we have to give the same honour to a future separatist who happens to become the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (pray that never happens again).



The decision to give a State Funeral to _any_ Canadian is the prerogative and a power vested in the Prime Minister. PM Harper offered Ms. Chow a State Funeral for Mr. Layton for his contribution of Canadian Politics and as the Leader of HMLO (arguably). It is my opinion that Mr. Duceppe did *not* significantly contribute positively to Canadian Politics, but in fact had a negative impact. I would not call Mr. Duceppe's sting as Leader of HMLO "loyal" by any stretch, I would call it disloyal as he, in fact, being member of a separatist party, would like to see Her Majesty disappear as our Head of State. So I would argue that if Mr. Duceppe would have passed away while being the Leader of HMLO, a State Funeral would not be warranted.


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## lethalLemon (25 Aug 2011)

frank1515 said:
			
		

> The decision to give a State Funeral to _any_ Canadian is the prerogative and a power vested in the Prime Minister. PM Harper offered Ms. Chow a State Funeral for Mr. Layton for his contribution of Canadian Politics and as the Leader of HMLO (arguably). It is my opinion that Mr. Duceppe did *not* significantly contribute positively to Canadian Politics, but in fact had a negative impact. I would not call Mr. Duceppe's sting as Leader of HMLO "loyal" by any stretch, I would call it disloyal as he, in fact, being member of a separatist party, would like to see Her Majesty disappear as our Head of State. So I would argue that if Mr. Duceppe would have passed away while being the Leader of HMLO, a State Funeral would not be warranted.



Well, you bring removal of the Monarchy from Canadian society into the mix, and you'd be surprised at how much of the general public would agree with it. Quebecois or not.

But that's a whole other can of worms.


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## frank1515 (25 Aug 2011)

A whole other can of worms, indeed! I guess I underestimated the loyalty Canadian society actually has for the Crown.

In any case, back to Mr. Layton's legacy.


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## Greymatters (25 Aug 2011)

The death of any person is sad; death by cancer is worse, and death from prostate cancer is one of the worst - it can take away all your dignity as a man.  I know from experience, with two family members having travelled this path, and I'm at risk for being there in the future.

I didnt like Layton, didnt like his politics and didnt like some of his political actions or leadership style.  I even met him in person once, and didnt like him then either.  

But I will give him kudos, it took a set of big ones to lead his party through the past year and the recent elections while suffering from this disease.   He likely could have lived longer if he had taken better care of himself over the past year, and instead he focused himself on his party's success.   I think he had a high level of personal integrity and perseverance, and I respect his willingness to sacrifice himself for something he believed in.


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## vonGarvin (25 Aug 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> EDIT: Perhaps I should have read a bit more before I spoke... someone correct me, I believe I may be wrong. Was he Leader of the Opposition for one (June 2) session in Parliament?


Parliament has sat, and Mr. Layton was, according to Hansard, present on 2 June 2011 among other days.

For example, on Monday, 06 June, Mr Layton said the following during question period:



> Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by congratulating the Prime Minister, the government and all members who were elected. I would also like to take this opportunity to remind the Conservatives that 60% of Canadian voters did not vote for them. After the recent campaign, the Prime Minister said he felt an obligation to work with all members of the House. I agree with him on that, but the Conservatives' tone did not change at all in the throne speech.
> 
> 
> Where is the government's desire to work with others?



And Hansard shows that he was last in parliament on 23 June 2011.


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## exgunnertdo (25 Aug 2011)

I don't know where else to post this, but this is just wrong. 

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=239960959372957

A Facebook event, rallying people to mark Jack Layton's journey down the 401, by gathering on the overpasses dressed in orange, waving Canadian flags.

It is not an NDP sanctioned event, btw. 

But a bit of Googling, and I'm discovering media referring to his journey "down the stretch of the 401 known as the Highway of Heroes."  Can they not just call it the 401???

I feel that this funeral has gotten way out of control.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Aug 2011)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> But a bit of Googling, and I'm discovering media referring to his journey "down the stretch of the 401 known as the Highway of Heroes."  Can they not just call it the 401???


That's what you get when an idea/name catches on, for better or worse.


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## Brutus (25 Aug 2011)

frank1515 said:
			
		

> John Diefenbaker explains this extremely well, and if we are to honour Prime Ministers and serving Cabinet members with State Funerals, then we should also honour serving Leaders of the Loyal Opposition.
> 
> My  :2c:
> 
> EDIT: Fixed the quotation marks.



Serving Cabinet Ministers and the Prime Minister are members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and as such, are advisor's to the Queen (GG) on matters of State. I suspect very strongly that the link between a Cabinet Minster receiving a State Funeral is related to his position in the QPC and not his political position (Cabinet Minister). It is a State Funeral, not a political funeral. The decision to offer a State Funeral to Mr. Layton has to be seen as quite seperate from one that may be offered to a sitting Cabinet Minister. 

I personally don't have too much issue with it - he was one of the most popular political leaders in some time at the peak of his political success. I see this offer as a shrewd political move by the PM and an opportunity for the NDP to cash in some sympathy chips with the centre-left.

Also, it was mentioned that the authority to offer a State Funeral resides with the PM. It technically resides with the Governor General, on the advice of the Privy Council.


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## Rheostatic (25 Aug 2011)

Brutus said:
			
		

> Serving Cabinet Ministers and the Prime Minister are members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, and as such, are advisor's to the Queen (GG) on matters of State. I suspect very strongly that the link between a Cabinet Minster receiving a State Funeral is related to his position in the QPC and not his political position (Cabinet Minister). It is a State Funeral, not a political funeral. The decision to offer a State Funeral to Mr. Layton has to be seen as quite seperate from one that may be offered to a sitting Cabinet Minister.
> 
> I personally don't have too much issue with it - he was one of the most popular political leaders in some time at the peak of his political success. I see this offer as a shrewd political move by the PM and an opportunity for the NDP to cash in some sympathy chips with the centre-left.
> 
> Also, it was mentioned that the authority to offer a State Funeral resides with the PM. It technically resides with the Governor General, on the advice of the Privy Council.


Jack Layton was a member of the Privy Council.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Aug 2011)

Brutus said:
			
		

> Serving Cabinet Ministers and the Prime Minister are *members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada*, and as such, are advisor's to the Queen (GG) on matters of State. I suspect very strongly that the link between a Cabinet Minster receiving a State Funeral is related to his position in the QPC and not his political position (Cabinet Minister).


Let's not forget Jack was also a member of the Privy Council according to the Parliament web page ....


> The Flag on the Peace Tower in Ottawa will be flown at half-mast from Monday, August 22, 2011, until sunset on Saturday, August 27, 2011, the day of the funeral of the Honourable Jack Layton, Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, *Member of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada* and Leader of the New Democratic Party of Canada.


.... and had been so since since March 21, 2005 according to the PCO site.



			
				Brutus said:
			
		

> I see this offer as a shrewd political move by the PM and an opportunity for the NDP to cash in some sympathy chips with the centre-left.


Agree with this - imagine the s**t storm if this wasn't offered.


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Aug 2011)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> I don't know where else to post this, but *this is just wrong. *
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=239960959372957
> 
> ...



Why is it "wrong"?  While I find the breadth of emotional response to Jack Layton's passing to be surprising, it does not mean that spontaneous expressions of respect should be condemned or restricted.  I would have been equally (or more) surprised if the same demonstrations had resulted should the principal in the proceedings had been the curent PM.  Despite his political views, Mr. Layton was probably the most popularly respected (and liked) national political leader in recent memory.  Unfortunately, we will not find out if his stellar performance during the last federal election would have translated into an equally memorable stint as Leader of the Opposition.  We are left only with the "might have been".  And that is, in my limited opinion, one of the reasons for this outpouring - there are many in this country who look on the current government (and its leader) as being diametrically opposite of their beliefs.  Not only are they showing their respect for the man who "might have been", but they are publically making themselves known as still expecting consideration of their views.

I don't know the particulars of the funeral ceremonial, I really don't care, but there is a difference between the funeral (which is probably following a set program) and the public demonstrations in memorial of Layton.  You may not be a fan of how others have chosen to honour him, however, (as someone once said to me as the only other person attending a funeral - about the guest of honour) "every man gets the funeral he deserves".


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## Brutus (25 Aug 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Let's not forget Jack was also a member of the Privy Council according to the Parliament web page ........ and had been so since since March 21, 2005 according to the PCO site.
> Agree with this - imagine the s**t storm if this wasn't offered.



Well, shoot, I just got schooled. Totally missed the Layton-QPC thing. Thanks.

As far as the general issue of the fawning being done over Layton, I think it's primarily caused by the man's like-ability. I disagreed with most of his ideas, but I can't deny that he was extremely charismatic, and this (for me) stemmed from the impression that he really believed in what he was doing. He had an ability to convey sincerity more so than others, and this appealed to many due to our cynicism and belief that politicians were inherantly insincere. This was possible due to the fact that the NDP would never govern, so therefore they were free to promise the world knowing full well they would never be asked to deliver it. There is no bad track record in governance for the Federal NDP. No sponsorship scandal and no Airbus scandal. 

Jack Layton was unique in his ability to appeal to people on a human level if not a political one. Who can hate a guy who 'fights for families' (as he said), even if you disagreed with how he was doing it?

I feel bad for the guy, and I was genuinely sad to hear the news. I think he would have done an excellent job as Leader of the Opposition as a 'socially focussed' counter-weight to the Conservatives.


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## Jed (25 Aug 2011)

I think it was the right thing to do by Harper ( the Governor General ?) to organise a state funeral. I was pleased to see it was all RCMP acting as pall bearers as opposed to interspersing with troops. I do not feel Mr. Layton was any friend to the Canadian Military. He will always be 'Taliban Jack' in my mind. Anybody can be a 'bon Jack' if you sell out all your principles and you are not around for the accounting.


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## Edward Campbell (25 Aug 2011)

The papers are reporting that Layton's funeral plans have been under discussion for a month. I'll wager that the state funeral issued surfaced in the PMO shortly after we all say Layton announce his new cancer. His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'


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## exgunnertdo (25 Aug 2011)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Why is it "wrong"?



The event has bee changed now. Originally the title of the event had "Highway of Heroes" in it.  That's the part that is wrong. 401, Macdonald-Cartier Freeway, sure. Not the Highway of Heroes.


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## GAP (25 Aug 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The papers are reporting that Layton's funeral plans have been under discussion for a month. I'll wager that the state funeral issued surfaced in the PMO shortly after we all say Layton announce his new cancer. His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'



With the CBC and others with the broadcast rights? They're acting like it's NHL playoffs, to the point I most turn it off.......enough already....they're down to interviewing 7 year olds who claim he would have been a great man if he'd been PM......really  :


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## Brutus (25 Aug 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The papers are reporting that Layton's funeral plans have been under discussion for a month. I'll wager that the state funeral issued surfaced in the PMO shortly after we all say Layton announce his new cancer. His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'



The same happened for Smokey Smith's (military) funeral and Laying in State. I can't imagine how daunting a task it would be to plan, organize, and execute one of these on 4 or 5 day's notice.

But I agree, the perception being cast of a strictly emotional and nonpartisan series of events is not accurate. Political considerations are most definitely on the forefront of many NDP'ers here.


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## Edward Campbell (25 Aug 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> With the CBC and others with the broadcast rights? They're acting like it's NHL playoffs, to the point I most turn it off.......enough already....they're down to interviewing 7 year olds who claim he would have been a great man if he'd been PM......really  :




This is manna from heaven for the TV news folks. The 24 hour news channels must be fed with _something_ and a death like this, with a very _visual_ 'star' who lived 99.9% of his life in the public eye is near prefect.

I remember the night Princess Di died, I was 'on the road' and dining, alone, at a rather nice riverfront pub near the Vancouver Airport when one of the pretty barmaids said something like "Do you know about Princess Dianna?" "Oh," I harrumphed, "she's just a vacuous young woman with a great press agent." The poor girl broke into tears and blubbered that she'd died ... I felt, momentarily, bad; later, as the weeks wore I on really, really wished she'd never taken that drive. I feel a bit worse for Layton; I think he was a more substantial person - more substantial than Dianna Spencer - but I'm also waiting for all this to pass.


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## Hammer Sandwich (25 Aug 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> .... I feel a bit worse for Layton; I think he was a more substantial person - more substantial than Dianna Spencer - but I'm also waiting for all this to pass.



Much agreed....even if I didn't subscribe to his party or politics...he was an excellent _leader_.
I'm not  a "sheep" type of person, but I know that my perforance improves under a good leader...



			
				GAP said:
			
		

> ....they're down to interviewing 7 year olds who claim he would have been a great man if he'd been PM......really



That is a bit of asshattery....BUT IT'S NOT NEWS!!!
HOLY CRAP...GET A KID TO SAY SOMETHING!

They're just fishing for soundbites....the grownups are there to pay respect, the kids have no friggin' clue.

_Fluff....fluff into the wind....._

HS


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## Old Sweat (25 Aug 2011)

If anybody remembers, Mother Teresa died within 12 hours of Diana.


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## JesseWZ (25 Aug 2011)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> If anybody remembers, Mother Teresa died within 12 hours of Diana.



Mother Teresa's dead?!


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## Hammer Sandwich (25 Aug 2011)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> Mother Teresa's dead?!



I remember being SUPER-PISSED about that, because I couldn't call my Mom, (non-CF related....lines were tied up)
And being SUPER-PISSED (as a Catholic), about the whole situation...

Flame if you will, I think Mother Theresa merited some attention.

(ALL UNITS STANDBY FOR THREAD TRIMMING AND DELETION).

HS


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## a_majoor (25 Aug 2011)

Jack Layton's legacy....

In terms of what he achieved, I would say it really comes down to building an effective political machine so the NDP became competative in Federal elections. The machine was able to catch and ride the "Orange Crush" in Quebec and thankfully crush the National Socialist BQ, removing an obstacle that had paralized Paliament for many years.

Another legacy item (related to building the machine IMO) was to tone down a lot of the immoderate rhetoric from the Caucus and supporters of the NDP. We might know or suspect that in the background they still whisper about Canadian soldiers being war criminals and wanting to "eat the rich", and the internal machinery of the party is as opaque as ever, but this has faded from public view.

Perhaps the last piece of legacy is how well Jack himself managed to charm the media and massage the message. He was a cupable as the other two members of the "Coalition" in trying to subvert the will of the People, but managed to avoid much of the damage that Stephan Dion, Gilles Duceppe (and later Micheal Ignatieff) received over the entire affair.

In terms of policy, aside from blackmailing Paul Martin for billions of dollars in Federal spending to prop up the Liberal minority and then blackmailing Stephen Harper for a multi billion dollar "stimulus" after the Coalition fiasco, the NDP have not made any lasting policy changes, just some short term blips (with long term consequences, alas). Indeed, if the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance are to be believed, the spending taps will be shutting down rather than ramping up, and the flowering of "botique" tax cuts is putting taxation policy in the opposite direction that the NDP would advocate. Canada's military and foreign policy has been moving in a robust, internationally enhgaged "National Interests" direction, once again quite opposite to the NDP's isolationist "Little Canada" approach.


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## Maxadia (25 Aug 2011)

Simply put, as someone before me mentioned.....it was the PM's prerogative to offer a state funeral, regardless of whether Mr. Layton was a PM, GG, or Minister of Cabinet. 

Just like John Henry Foster Babcock.  And I don't remember hearing anyone complain about the fact that HE wasn't a PM, GG, or Minister of Cabinet.

Can't have things both ways.....

(if you have to Google Mr. Babcock's name, please don't reply.... ;D)


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## Hammer Sandwich (25 Aug 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Jack Layton's legacy....



I kept trying to write a "cool retort", but I couldn't.....stupid Vista...
I don't, and never will wear "Jack" boots.

But I'm part of the DEMOGRAPHIC.
CANADIAN MALE, age 18 through 45.
I didn't like the NDP for all the reasons you posted....and I won't be partisan in the future.

But that guy led a group of people....(politicans and such)....to near-power.

That's what I think is "cool".

Just because I think he was cool, (and by saying so online, which I know carries weight), doesn't affect my vote.
I'll still vote for my choice.

Sure won't be  NDP, but I thought Jack Layton was cool.

So sue me.


edit: misspelled Canadian, for Chrissakes....


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Aug 2011)

I didn't know Mr Layton personally, so I won't get in that long line of people spilling their platitudes, guts, and wearing their hearts on a sleeve about this ordinary socialist that got too much air time. I won't call him 'Jack" like he was my next door neighbour, because he wasn't and first names are reserved for people who you have met and have given you permission to use their surname. I'm sure he was a great guy to have a beer with, but he is just a person. A person that, until a week ago, most couldn't stand because of his communist values.

I am sorry for the way he went. No one wants to be saddled with that shit. I'm sorry for his family, that they had to endure this and I'm sorry for their loss. Cancer is a bitch and no one should have to endure it.

I didn't like his public persona, his policies or his yappy little ghetto dog attitude.

I am not sorry he's gone from politics. I'm not sorry that this will cause extreme gnashing of teeth in his party. And I won't be sorry if his party implodes because he is not at the helm.

To me, Jack Layton was a ponce and a poser. He played to the supposed downtrodden, socially unacceptable for their unwillingness to work, and any others that wanted something for nothing. He lived pretty high on the hog, between him and Olivia for a couple of 'We're all equal, power to the people' bullshit.

He also managed to shanghai every Union organization in the country. Not unexpected or difficult, considering the socialist bent, the small minded, short term worker agenda all these organizations have. 

He is not a Saint, he is not a Martyr. He was a person who, most here an elseware, despised. He was a hypocrite. A typical politician. Get over it. 

This is the guy that refused to attend Ramp Ceremonies.

He didn't go to Afghanistan, as many politicians from every party did, even though he could have gone to see first hand and chose not to.

He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. I don't even remember any official statements either.

He called us "war criminals" with regards to the implications on mistreatment of Taliban detainees by the Afghan authorities. He couldn't look us in the eyes when these accusations were proven false and even offer an apology.

He wanted us to negotiate with an enemy that maims and murders women and children based on their archaic 12th century beliefs.

I really fail to see the 'greatness' of Jack Layton or why we are celebrating his passing. Great guy? My dad was a great guy, but the PM didn't acknowledge him.

Jack Layton was not that special. Quit pretending he was.

 That's my  :2c: on the subject. Mourn in private and spare us the bullshit platitudes.


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## GAP (26 Aug 2011)

That pretty much sums it up..... :nod:


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## George Wallace (26 Aug 2011)

That fairly much sums it up for me as well.  I took a dislike for the pair of Laytons when they were Toronto City Councilors and lived in Subsidized Housing.  That was a very immoral act in my eyes and a precursor to his and her future aspirations in Federal politics.


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## frank1515 (26 Aug 2011)

I do agree that the media is blowing Mr. Layton's passing out of proportion. I mean, I don't remember people making a big fuss over Romeo Leblanc passing, and he was GG! In any case, as stated by Recceguy, I'm no fan of Mr. Layton; not before his passing nor after. It's still my belief though, that no one deserve to die from cancer (obvious, I know). 

As for the NDP, their inexperience will show in the next Parliamentary session, and I believe their so called "Orange Crush" was a fluke, and come next election (2015?) it will be between the Liberals and the Conservative (as it should) to duke it out. Depending on their next Leader, the NDP might become a non-issue, much like the Bloc Quebecois in the last election.


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## Maxadia (26 Aug 2011)

Some good points here too:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/08/26/kevin-libin-the-crass-exploitation-of-jack-laytons-death/



> Kevin Libin  Aug 26, 2011 – 8:25 AM ET | Last Updated: Aug 26, 2011 8:32 AM ET
> 
> Monday morning, after news of Jack Layton’s death broke, my inbox began flooding with press releases. Mind you, my inbox floods every other morning with press releases, almost every single one of which is utterly useless to me: announcements about some community college opening a new laboratory for corn-fertilizer research, or some obscure, fringe activist group expressing its support, or perhaps disdain, for a recent political development. On Monday, though, the deluge was different. This time, it was more like some community college extending its condolences over Layton’s death, or some obscure, fringe activist group announcing its grief over the loss. But then, maybe they weren’t that different after all.
> 
> ...


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## Hammer Sandwich (26 Aug 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> .....
> This is the guy that refused to attend Ramp Ceremonies.
> 
> He didn't go to Afghanistan, as many politicians from every party did, even though he could have gone to see first hand and chose not to.
> ...



I honestly didn't know any of that.

I appreciate that clarification, GW.

This has definitely given me a different perspective.

HS


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## Redeye (26 Aug 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That fairly much sums it up for me as well.  I took a dislike for the pair of Laytons when they were Toronto City Councilors and lived in Subsidized Housing.  That was a very immoral act in my eyes and a precursor to his and her future aspirations in Federal politics.



They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.

As for calling us "war criminals", did he ever actually say that? Not that I'm aware of, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead. He took the detainee handling matter very seriously, and fair enough. There were quite a lot of Canadians who had a degree of interest and concern about the matter. The issue was brought into the light, discussed at length, and the matter was then closed. I have no issue with that. That's kind of the guy's job being in an opposition party. Yes, there's a subset of NDP supporters who dislike militaries, who think war is the ugliest of things, etc, but that's by no means all of them, and regardless, they have an opinion they're entitled to. Hell, there are NDP folks like Peter Stoffer who tend to get support in military communities too, after all. Mr. Layton managed to get these people behind him and unified into a force that got him made the Leader of the Official Opposition.

Would I ever have voted for him or his party? Not in a million years. Did I respect him as a leader more than any other federal party leader I can think of in my lifetime anyhow? Yes.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Aug 2011)

I didn't like most of Layton's policies/positions, either.  However.....


			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> He tried to use the deaths of fallen troops as part of his agenda on the 5 o'clock news. Least he could have done was go to a ramp ceremony, but he couldn't be bothered. *I don't even remember any official statements either.*


.... I don't know if a statement was issued for _each_ of the fallen, but it wasn't zero on that score, either.


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## Edward Campbell (26 Aug 2011)

Redeye said:
			
		

> They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.
> 
> As for calling us "war criminals", did he ever actually say that? Not that I'm aware of, but if someone wants to prove me wrong, go ahead. He took the detainee handling matter very seriously, and fair enough. There were quite a lot of Canadians who had a degree of interest and concern about the matter. The issue was brought into the light, discussed at length, and the matter was then closed. I have no issue with that. That's kind of the guy's job being in an opposition party. Yes, there's a subset of NDP supporters who dislike military, who think war is the ugliest of things, etc, but that's by no means all of them, and regardless, they have an opinion they're entitled to. Mr. Layton managed to get these people behind him and unified into a force that got him made the Leader of the Official Opposition.
> 
> Would I ever have voted for him or his party? Not in a million years. Did I respect him as a leader more than any other federal party leader I can think of in my lifetime anyhow? Yes.




You're right about the co-op; it is an old canard that has been refuted every single time but it's a chestnut - hard to bury.

I don't recall him ever using "war criminal" and "Canadian Forces" in the same sentence, and I like to think i would have noticed. But he did get close: he talked about "suspicions" and "war crimes" and the government, which includes the CF. He was a very smart, very clever man who was appealing to his base; he knew he didn't need to appeal to us, the military and its supporters, so he could smear and allude and still avoid actually calling us you war criminals - but his base knew what he meant and he demeaned himself by doing it.

The detainee issue was fabricated - I stand by that word - by the NDP. Layton was the NDP's leader and, reportedly a good one; he was, therefore, in my opinion responsible for the detainee handling=war crimes lie.

Layton was, at heart, a _conservative_ - he wanted to turn back the clock to a T.C. Douglas/Pierre Trudea era that, really, never existed except in the fevered imaginations of _Dippers_. And you're right they are the sort of people who think war is the ugliest thing but, of course, in that, as in everything else, the _Dippers_ are wrong, again, because, as John Stuart Mill said, _"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."_

That was Layton and is the NDP: a miserable creature, a 'kept man,' with no chance of being free.


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## Redeye (26 Aug 2011)

I knew you'd pick up on my allusion to Mill, Mr. Campbell.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> You're right about the co-op; it is an old canard that has been refuted every single time but it's a chestnut - hard to bury.
> 
> I don't recall him ever using "war criminal" and "Canadian Forces" in the same sentence, and I like to think i would have noticed. But he did get close: he talked about "suspicions" and "war crimes" and the government, which includes the CF. He was a very smart, very clever man who was appealing to his base; he knew he didn't need to appeal to us, the military and its supporters, so he could smear and allude and still avoid actually calling us you war criminals - but his base knew what he meant and he demeaned himself by doing it.
> 
> ...


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## mariomike (26 Aug 2011)

Redeye said:
			
		

> They never lived in subsidized housing - they lived in a cooperative that had subsidized units, but they paid full fair market value. That oft-trotted out claim was fairly regularly debunked.



The results of the investigation are attached.


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## Danjanou (26 Aug 2011)

In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  :

I lived literally around the corner from Jack and Olivia then and was paying that (actually  bit more IIRC) for a tiny 500-600 sq feet 1 bedroom that, while sufficent for both my needs and salary, one would be hard pressed to swing a dead cat in. They had a nice view of the city skyline. I overlooked a bunch of crack dealers. 

The Hazelbourne Co op also held one hell of a party when Jack and Olivia finally moved out, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.  8)


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## ModlrMike (26 Aug 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  :
> 
> I lived literally around the corner from Jack and Olivia then and was paying that (actually  bit more IIRC) for a tiny 500-600 sq feet 1 bedroom that, while sufficent for both my needs and salary, one would be hard pressed to swing a dead cat in. They had a nice view of the city skyline. I overlooked a bunch of crack dealers.
> 
> The Hazelbourne Co op also held one hell of a party when Jack and Olivia finally moved out, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.  8)



Indeed, he may not have done anything "wrong" from a legal sense, but I read some shaky moral and ethical implications.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Aug 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> In the interest of full disclosure in what rose coloured world does one pay $800.00 "market rent" for a 3 bedroom apartment in downtown Toronto in the 1990's?  :


If you believe mariomike's _G&M_ article, it sounds like they paid more around $1100 a month - a bit closer? (I have no clue re:  TO pricing in those days)

That said....


			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Indeed, he may not have done anything "wrong" from a legal sense, but I read some shaky moral and ethical implications.


It's all about the optics (who isn't getting rent-controlled space when they're paying allegedly full market in a co-op?), and if ANYBODY should have known that, it would have been someone like JL.


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## Journeyman (26 Aug 2011)

There are always problems between hagiography and reality; you guys need to cut Saint Jack some slack during this canonization process.



I saw him walking on water once.  :nod:   


Sure, we was wearing skates at the time; so what of it? Unbelievers


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## Rifleman62 (26 Aug 2011)

Agree with recceguy, as what he wrote *fairly* sums it up for me as well.


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## Danjanou (26 Aug 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> If you believe mariomike's _G&M_ article, it sounds like they paid more around $1100 a month - a bit closer? (I have no clue re:  TO pricing in those days)
> 
> That said....It's all about the optics (who isn't getting rent-controlled space when they're paying allegedly full market in a co-op?), and if ANYBODY should have known that, it would have been someone like JL.



The "voluntary" surcharge appears to have been offered only after all this came to light, perhaps as a public pennance and it was shortly after they moved out and bought the nice house. Rental prices in TO were really bad then, they're still outrageous mind bu thr condo boom did create some more rental stock downtown and that slowed the rising rents somewhat by end of decade. $1200-1400 IIRC would have been about right for a 3 bdrm. We ended up paying a grand fof a 2 Bdrm in 2002. Mind a bare closet sized room complete with roaches, bedbugs and shared bath and "kitchen" in a downtown rooming house averages $400-450 these days old buddy.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Aug 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The "voluntary" surcharge appears to have been offered only after all this came to light, perhaps as a public pennance and it was shortly after they moved out and bought the nice house.


Seen - thanks.


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## Kirkhill (26 Aug 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ....His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'



Nae Doot at a', Argyle.


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## vonGarvin (26 Aug 2011)

I think that some of the outpouring is grief, genuine grief.  Not so much for the tragic suffering and end to a public figure, but because now, without Mr. Layton, the NDP are without a rudder.  And let's be frank: love or hate his policies, he _came across _ as a likable guy.  And now the "Great Orange Hope" is gone, because he had everything going for him for "the oppressed masses".


But, in the end, one pant leg on a time is how he got dressed.  He made deals, he opposed "things" simply to gain points, but I think part of it isn't just that the guy died in a terrible manner, but the NDP supporters out there have lost their best hope at forming a government in Canada.


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## Rifleman62 (26 Aug 2011)

As long as his "letter" which he "penned " does not come back to martyr the NDP to the stupid and uninformed.

While he was lying in state, commentators were relating the long line ups for PET. I wonder how many in that line have now grown up and matured?


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## Infanteer (26 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> But, in the end, one pant leg on a time is how he got dressed.  He made deals, he opposed "things" simply to gain points



But he didn't make gold records.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Aug 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> His inner circle of political advisors have had weeks to 'work' the media and 'script' this week. I suspect that much of what we are seeing by way of public reaction, while genuine, has been carefully but oh so gently 'directed.'


On that note, this from The Canadian Press:


> Jack Layton's state funeral will be as much a political event as a religious ceremony.
> 
> But while the overt politicization of the NDP leader's death has raised eyebrows in some quarters, his former top aide makes no apologies.
> 
> ...


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## a_majoor (27 Aug 2011)

David Frum on Jack Layton's legacy:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/just+said/5315859/story.html



> *He did it just as he said*
> 
> David Frum, National Post · Aug. 27, 2011 | Last Updated: Aug. 27, 2011 5:23 AM ET
> 
> ...


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## Retired AF Guy (27 Aug 2011)

Looks like the gloves are starting to come off:

From Ezra Levant:  Political weaponry: Layton's death has created a paparazzi-friendly partisan rally 

From W.E. (Bill) Belliveau:  The Canonization of Jack Layton


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## Old Sweat (27 Aug 2011)

Out of respect I had avoided commenting on his legacy until now. He achieved an astonishing political success, thanks in part to his energy, drive and personality. However, much of his success in Quebec, where he made truly astouding gains despite a slate of obscure non-entities, was because he pandered to Quebec nationalism. Specifically he evoked the NDP's Sherbrooke Declaration which repudiated the Clarity Act in favour of the 50 percent plus one option so favoured by the independence movement.

To take the party over the next hurdle, which would be to form government, it must at the least win the most seats in the next election. That to me means winning more than 30 seats from the Tories, which may be easier said than done. What about merging with the Liberals? Unfortunately the combined party would still require to take about the same number to gain power in a two party house. This second option depends on the willingness of the Liberals to go that route, which is by no means certain.

Now, what if a sovereigntist party gains power in Quebec and declares it will hold a referendum and not consider itself bound by the Clarity Act? How many NDP supporters, especially the soft social democrats would be willing to go along with that? And the NDP prospects are worse if no union with the Grits happens and it is in a minority position. It would be defeated in the House and then very likely would be crushed at the polls.

Another option is the Quebec support softening, which could move the party back into third place or worse. Even without out that, it still must more than double its support outside Quebec to win a majority.

There are a few other scenarios, none of which are any more attractive. It may be, that just as Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg was the high water mark of the Confederacy, the NDP has nowhere to go but down.


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## Rifleman62 (27 Aug 2011)

Quebec bled the Liberals dry, then the Conservatives, the Liberals again, formed their own national party to bleed dry, will bleed the NDP dry, all the while bleeding Canada dry.

Enough is enough.


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## Edward Campbell (27 Aug 2011)

Others have said this much better than I, but it bears repeating: Québec politics is a sort of cloud coocoo land full of irrational dreams and devoid of any reasonable sense of history. No one, not Lucien Bouchard and not Jack Layton can or could ever meet Québec's _expectations_ because they are, simultaneously, irrational and contradictory. But Layton played the _nationalist_ card and, for better or worse the NDP is the opposition in parliament and, therefore, for the media, the government in waiting. The NDP caucus is top heavy with young, inexperienced Québec political neophytes who, in most cases, I think, ran on NDP ideals but ended up winning with _nationalist_ votes. They cannot deliver – no one can: Trudeau could not, Mulroney could not, Bouchard could not, Chrétien could not, Duceppe could not, Layton could not have, either.

Québec will fragment again – two or three federalist parties and two or three _nationalist_ parties; it will be interesting to see into which group the NDP falls.

Harper is, I believe learning to govern without Québec – not *against* Québec, just without it. When AB, BC and ON have even more seats in the HoC Québec and it's fractured, fatuous politics will matter less and less and the other major national party, the Liberals, will, finally, understand that, too.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Aug 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I didn't know Mr Layton personally, so I won't get in that long line of people spilling their platitudes, guts, and wearing their hearts on a sleeve about this ordinary socialist that got too much air time. I won't call him 'Jack" like he was my next door neighbour, because he wasn't and first names are reserved for people who you have met and have given you permission to use their surname. I'm sure he was a great guy to have a beer with, but he is just a person. A person that, until a week ago, most couldn't stand because of his communist values.
> 
> I am sorry for the way he went. No one wants to be saddled with that crap. I'm sorry for his family, that they had to endure this and I'm sorry for their loss. Cancer is a ***** and no one should have to endure it.
> 
> ...



I really enjoyed reading this and couldn't agree more (nor could ever word it so well).

As far as I'm concerned he was an ass.  I'm not going to jump on the greif tourisim train and water down my opinion of him because he died.

I've read one NDP MP said he gave his life for the country? Sure.


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## Lance Wiebe (28 Aug 2011)

I am 100% in agreement with recce Guy.

Well said....(far better than I could do!)


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## Brad Sallows (28 Aug 2011)

I would not have "canonized" Jack Layton a week before I knew he had any sort of serious illness and I will not now.  Hard turns of fate - or benevolent ones - are not factors which should lift or lower a person's reputation.


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## a_majoor (30 Aug 2011)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I would not have "canonized" Jack Layton a week before I knew he had any sort of serious illness and I will not now.  Hard turns of fate - or benevolent ones - are not factors which should lift or lower a person's reputation.



This is done all the time, especially for people reaching the height of their careers or on a rapidly upwards trajectory. When their lives are cut short, there is a general feeling of "what if" and "what might have been" among fans, friends and followers. Music stars like Jim Morrison, Jimmi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Ian Curtis and Amy Winehouse are perhaps the most obvious, but we can also consider James Dean in the movie business or JFK and RFK in the political arena. Generally, a close look at these individuals reveals a very different picture of their personalities and abilities (or even their accomplishments, take an objective look at JFK's presidential record and it is possible he would have had a tough fight to gain a second term).

I'm sure that dozens of other contenders in various fields could be nominated for the "What if" cannonization.


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## Rifleman62 (30 Aug 2011)

What day is it that Jack will arise again?


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## Hammer Sandwich (30 Aug 2011)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> What day is it that Jack will arise again?



It'll take about 3 1/2 years.

First, (and this starts right now), they'll run a study to find the tomb.
Then, another grant to decide who goes into the tomb.
Then, another (grant-funded) study to decide how many/who should be in the tomb.
Then, a public poll, (grant-funded), determining if the (Tomb-goers) represent the working populous in sufficient numbers.

Then, caviar and cocktails!
(But, they will feel bad, and invite some "working-class Joes"...)


Then they'll find the tomb.



Lemme know what happens when they figure out how to roll the stone away.


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## ModlrMike (30 Aug 2011)

Something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA

Followed by lots of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P2jJdrz9bY&feature=related


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## a_majoor (30 Aug 2011)

In the old days, the departed King was buried with his household possessions, servants and other sundries to assist in the afterlife.

Just saying.........


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## Hammer Sandwich (30 Aug 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Something like this?



Right on the friggin' button.

I didn't like the policies or party to begin with, but, from what I've read, I like him a little bit less everyday.

I still don't think it changes the fact that he was an excellent leader (insert Stalin/Hitler/BB Ghali stuff here).

A good leader does not a Saint make.

WHOOPS:...eta: STONE HER!
(always gotta continue any Python)


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