# Aspiring CF-18 pilot...come on, give me a chance :)



## Bo (8 Jan 2005)

Hey guys,

Well, I never thought I would be posting questions on the Canadian Army forum but after experiencing the doldrums of post-university life, I've decided to expand my future career possibilities. Yes, I want to become (or at least hope to become) a CF-18 pilot. After reading some of the threads on this forum, it has become quite apparent though, that the chances of achieving this goal are slim to none. First, I'll give you a little information about myself:

1.   I'm 23, graduated from Concordia University in Computer Science and I've been working in the IT field for a little over a year. Math is one of my strengths. I haven't done physics since Cegep (Quebec college) but I can re-learn that pretty fast.

2. Physically, I'm in pretty good shape: I run 5k in under 19 minutes, I can bench 225lbs for 8 reps, I can do 27 pullups and about 60+ pushups. I'm 5'11" and weigh 172lbs. I'm a team-oriented kind of guy; I've played soccer and hockey all my life.

My questions are the following:

1. How many trainees attend pilot school in Moose Jaw each session and how many CF-18 positions are available per session?

2. Assuming one becomes a CF-18 pilot, how many years must that person stay in the Air Force?

3. If there is no current conflict with which Canada is involved in, what does a CF-18 pilot do? Does he/she have a choice where to be stationed?

4. Once retired, can a CF-18 pilot transfer his skill set to become a commercial airline pilot? Is this common?

5. I'm from Montreal, a fun, party-filled city with a great nightlife and great people. I've lived here all my life. I don't consider myself to be a very sensitive guy (getting homesick, missing friends) but I can't help but wonder what life will be like in some remote part of Canada (or the world).....what are your experiences with this?


Well, that's about it. I hope some of you guys will respond seeing as this is a pretty long post. Sorry for the long read   ;D


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## Inch (8 Jan 2005)

Bo said:
			
		

> My questions are the following:
> 
> 1. How many trainees attend pilot school in Moose Jaw each session and how many CF-18 positions are available per session?


When I went through Moose Jaw (Dec 02-Jul 03) there were 12 to 16 guys per course. Of that, usually 2 were given jet spots and of those 2, only one would go to 419 for Fighter Lead In Training (FLIT). The other one would stay in Moose Jaw to instruct for 3 years prior to getting his/her chance to go to 419. Getting there is one thing, but passing is something totally different. The failure rate on the Hornet OTU (Operational Training Unit) is quite high. I don't know exact numbers but I know 2 guys at my Sqn alone that failed it. There's an awful lot of info to process for a single pilot and some guys just aren't cut out for it.



> 2. Assuming one becomes a CF-18 pilot, how many years must that person stay in the Air Force?


It's the same for every pilot, 7 years after you get your pilot wings. You get your wings after BOTC, SLT (if req), PFT on the Slingsby, Phase IIa and Phase IIb on the Harvard II, and Phase III on the Hawk, Jet Ranger or King Air whatever the case may be. The training takes 2-3 years so you'll end up being in the CF for almost 10 years before you're able to leave. 



> 3. If there is no current conflict with which Canada is involved in, what does a CF-18 pilot do? Does he/she have a choice where to be stationed?


Again, it's the same for all pilots. We do training and proficiency flying to maintain our qualifications or gain new ones. You'll be doing written and flight tests constantly for the rest of your career. CF-18s are only in Cold Lake Alberta or Bagotville Quebec. You'll get posted where they need you, you will get to put in a request but that doesn't guarantee anything.



> 4. Once retired, can a CF-18 pilot transfer his skill set to become a commercial airline pilot? Is this common?


From what I've heard, it's not good. CF-18 pilots are one man bands and they have major deficiencies in crew management.   This of course can be learned, but they'll take any multi guy any day of the week over a Hornet guy.



> 5. I'm from Montreal, a fun, party-filled city with a great nightlife and great people. I've lived here all my life. I don't consider myself to be a very sensitive guy (getting homesick, missing friends) but I can't help but wonder what life will be like in some remote part of Canada (or the world).....what are your experiences with this?


It will be an adjustment for you, but by the time you get to Cold Lake for the Hornet OTU, you'll be well adjusted after having spent 2 years in Moose Jaw.

Good luck.


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## Bo (9 Jan 2005)

Thanks for the reply man! Good information.


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## Hibbsie (18 Apr 2008)

Sorry for bring a dead thread back to life but I have a quick question. I was talking to my friends about becoming a pilot and my air-force friend told me that there is a hight requirement to fly the CF-18. I was just wondering if this were true?


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## benny88 (18 Apr 2008)

For more info, check out Aircrew Selection threads, but during Aircrew Selection you will sit/stand in front of a blue screen and a camera which will record your body dimensions and figure out which cockpits your body is appropriate for. I don't know the measurements, just that I'm 6'2 about 185 and I fit all cockpits.


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## SupersonicMax (18 Apr 2008)

Archilochus said:
			
		

> Sorry for bring a dead thread back to life but I have a quick question. I was talking to my friends about becoming a pilot and my air-force friend told me that there is a hight requirement to fly the CF-18. I was just wondering if this were true?



There are a few pretty tall guys on the Jet course right now in Moose Jaw and they fit in the Hawk.  That's the biggest issue.  The Hornet cockpit is bigger than the Hawk's.

Max


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## Hibbsie (18 Apr 2008)

Well for me, being tall isn't the issue. I am 5'6'' so I'm just curious if that still allows me to be in any cockpit.


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## Zoomie (18 Apr 2008)

5'6" should be fine - it is more than just overall height.  They measure your hip to knee-cap length, your upper torso, etc .


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## SupersonicMax (19 Apr 2008)

Archilochus said:
			
		

> Well for me, being tall isn't the issue. I am 5'6'' so I'm just curious if that still allows me to be in any cockpit.



I'm 5'6" myself and I'm actually very comfortable in the Hawk as opposed to tall guys!


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## Bo (20 Apr 2008)

*sigh* how things have changed. Could I haved sounded like more of a noob?


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## benny88 (20 Apr 2008)

Bo said:
			
		

> *sigh* how things have changed. Could I haved sounded like more of a noob?




 Hahahahah. Everyone was there once. At least you went with list form and didn't jumble it all in one paragraph.


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## pipstah (20 Apr 2008)

We all start with a 0 in the log book!


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## acheo (21 Apr 2008)

It's a matter of timing my friend. Worst case you could end up on a course with no jet slot and the following course would get 4. Go figure!


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## Bo (22 Apr 2008)

Archilochus, why, oh why did you have to revive this ancient thread? My buddies in the flight have printed out my uber-noob post and sent it around the school, lol.


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## George Wallace (22 Apr 2008)

Bo said:
			
		

> Archilochus, why, oh why did you have to revive this ancient thread? My buddies in the flight have printed out my uber-noob post and sent it around the school, lol.



Now you understand some of the warnings and hints we gave you so many "posts" ago.    ;D


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## baboon6 (23 Apr 2008)

So Bo did you become a pilot as you wanted to?


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## Bo (23 Apr 2008)

Well, my desire to go F-18 died quickly after I learned more about the fighter lifestyle. The lack of flying (~150hrs/yr), long work days, living in Cold Lake, etc. didn't appeal to me. Plus I never had a real strong passion for F-18's to begin with. I was just like most other people who started out clueless and thought Top Gun was cool. 


When I arrived in Moose Jaw I was unsure whether I wanted to go Helo or Multi. I ended up getting helo and I'm quite happy with that. I start helo school June 9. Now I'm just unsure between Tac hel and SAR  

Oh and if you're wondering about how long it's taken so far, I started Basic Training in Sept '05 and should have wings by Oct '08. 3 years seems like a long time, but it flies by.


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## Strike (23 Apr 2008)

3 yrs is actually pretty good, given the training delays that have been seen.

As for which helo I'd say Tac Hel...but I'm biased.  I'm sure G2G would agree with my assessment though.


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## bigduke6 (23 Apr 2008)

Sorry about printing out your post and putting it up in the flight Bo Bo.  Obviously we get pretty bored while on standby.


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## benny88 (23 Apr 2008)

Bo said:
			
		

> Well, my desire to go F-18 died quickly after I learned more about the fighter lifestyle. The lack of flying (~150hrs/yr), long work days, living in Cold Lake, etc. didn't appeal to me.



  I think that's a pretty good testimonial for both OJT and this site. Even I've picked up a little info about each stream from reading posts here. I've heard that at Moose Jaw they give (or have given) motivation flights on CF-18s, is there any sort of formal introduction to the 3 streams, or is it just what you can pick up through word of mouth?


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## SupersonicMax (23 Apr 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I think that's a pretty good testimonial for both OJT and this site. Even I've picked up a little info about each stream from reading posts here. I've heard that at Moose Jaw they give (or have given) motivation flights on CF-18s, is there any sort of formal introduction to the 3 streams, or is it just what you can pick up through word of mouth?



Instructors come from the different streams so you can have their take on the streams.  Once or twice a year, some Hornets will come visit and give guys ride (1 or 2 guys).  You can get a view of the jet world by how things work in Moose Jaw.  It might not be 100% accurate but if you like Moose Jaw, chances you'll like the Jet Community.

Max


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## skosh123 (23 Apr 2008)

deleted


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## jzaidi1 (24 Apr 2008)

To all pilots on this thread,

Are there any reasons you can think of why an older guy such as myself (age 33) would not have a decent shot at becoming a pilot in the CAF?  IF I am accepted under one of several officer programs (ie. OTCP, DEO, CEOTP, etc...) I would most likely be 35 yrs of age.

I look to you to help guide my career path and choices.  Despite the 150 hrs/yr in the CF-18 I'd still be leaning towards that.  I like Helos and Multi but "Fast Air" is where I want to be.

Am I being realistic or is it wishful thinking at this point in my life?

CPL Jay


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## acheo (24 Apr 2008)

Joined exactly at 33 years old. There were a few guys older than me at the school. Most of them were occupationnal transfers.


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## jzaidi1 (24 Apr 2008)

Hey Acheo,

Please do give me details.  I need a mentor.  what kind of pitfalls were you exposed to by joining later than most other folks.  How long did it take you to earn your wings and what is it that you are piloting now?

The greatest respect to you bro...more info please.  I'm like a sponge right now soaking it all in.

CPL Jay


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## acheo (24 Apr 2008)

jzaidi,

Check your inbox. Wouldn't want to highjack this post.


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## benny88 (24 Apr 2008)

acheo said:
			
		

> Wouldn't want to highjack this post.




 I think Bo would lament that it has been significantly hijacked already


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## Good2Golf (25 Apr 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> 3 yrs is actually pretty good, given the training delays that have been seen.
> 
> As for which helo I'd say Tac Hel...but I'm biased.  I'm sure G2G would agree with my assessment though.



Giddy up!  Tac Hel will be rocking by the time you finish the OTU Bo.  You might even have your choice of up-gunned Griff  :fifty:   or Hook...  :tank:   You might even get lucky and pipe to Pet.

G2G


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## pipstah (26 Apr 2008)

or ask tac hel and end up somewhere else.... 
but really happy to end up there


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## zorro (26 Apr 2008)

jzaidi1 said:
			
		

> Am I being realistic or is it wishful thinking at this point in my life?
> 
> CPL Jay



Don't let the nay-sayers get to you, if you want it go for it. You've got nothing to loose by trying, and everything to gain.


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## 2fly (27 Apr 2008)

Bo said:
			
		

> Well, my desire to go F-18 died quickly after I learned more about the fighter lifestyle. The lack of flying (~150hrs/yr), long work days, living in Cold Lake, etc. didn't appeal to me. Plus I never had a real strong passion for F-18's to begin with. I was just like most other people who started out clueless and thought Top Gun was cool.
> 
> 
> When I arrived in Moose Jaw I was unsure whether I wanted to go Helo or Multi. I ended up getting helo and I'm quite happy with that. I start helo school June 9. Now I'm just unsure between Tac hel and SAR
> ...



I am not much to talk but I am currently on ASC.  I was selected and am 38.  My buddy just finished tachel and he is 29 and it took him 3 years from start to finish.


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## Adamentos (28 Apr 2008)

I am 20 years old and am finishing up my CPL and was wondering about how long it would take to get the chance to fly the CF-18, and if my training would be shortened because of already having a pilots liscence along with multi IFR endorsement.


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## benny88 (28 Apr 2008)

Adamentos said:
			
		

> I am 20 years old and am finishing up my CPL and was wondering about how long it would take to get the chance to fly the CF-18, and if my training would be shortened because of already having a pilots liscence along with multi IFR endorsement.



 For length of training, read the many pilot threads here. For whether your license will help shorten it, search "CPL"


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## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2008)

Adamentos said:
			
		

> I am 20 years old and am finishing up my CPL and was wondering about how long it would take to get the chance to fly the CF-18, and if my training would be shortened because of already having a pilots liscence along with multi IFR endorsement.



Just a HINT, civy flying is nowhere close to what military flying is.  Standards are much different.  The learning process is very different.  I have my CPL and I'm just at the "end" of my wing training and CPL gave me no edge whatsoever.  The only thing that you will bypass is PFT (a selection course)

Max


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## jzaidi1 (28 Apr 2008)

Thanks everyone,

I appreciate the words of encouragement.  I'll be heading to the CFRC tomorrow - hopefully I'll be able to get better direction on what I need to do in order to qualify for Pilot MOC.  I know I need laser eye surgery to get to at least 20/20 and get underway on a degree (I only have 1 year in Comp Sci so far but may have to restart the whole thing).  I'll also need to get back into shape - start running!

Question:
1. Will my previous reservist and cadet training put me in advance standing for anything (I was CPL rank when I discharged honourably)?
2. If I start on my PPL will that help with the application process at all?

Thanks folks,
CPL Jay


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## WannaBeFlyer (28 Apr 2008)

jzaidi1 said:
			
		

> Question:
> 1. Will my previous reservist and cadet training put me in advance standing for anything (I was CPL rank when I discharged honourably)?
> 2. If I start on my PPL will that help with the application process at all?



1. Somewhat
2. Somewhat

Both are "nice to have" in addition to the minimum requirements. A lot of points can be earned through your education, your interview, and your CFAT score. I would suggest focussing on those areas.


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## acheo (30 Apr 2008)

> Just a HINT, civy flying is nowhere close to what military flying is.  Standards are much different.  The learning process is very different.  I have my CPL and I'm just at the "end" of my wing training and CPL gave me no edge whatsoever.



I partially disagree with you supersonic. Any previous experience may help you to a certain point. A private license is not much but if the candidate held an IFR endorsement and flew in a commercial air service, he`ll be a way ahead of the game for the IFR phase. I don`t remember having opened my books during my BIT run because it was my bread and butter in the civilian. The IIT was also pretty easy.

As for the clearhood, someone with a CPL could find the course easy for the first clearhoood missions but then after a while it makes no difference.

The military emphasize a lot on aircraft control and I believe this is where the standard is much higher than anywhere else.


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## hauger (30 Apr 2008)

See Acheo, I saw the opposite, sort of.

The PPL guys did well in Portage (since they already knew how to land a plane).  The CPL guys in MJ tended to either do okay, but the 1,000 hour CPL wonders (and portage bypasses due to going to the right college) for the most part struggled.  Usually they'd b*tch and complain about point-to-points, getting worked up when they didn't go right.  I'd also like to know how many CPL Multi-IFR grads have done PAR's, and how up to date they are with circling NDB's.  You'd see them squeak by flights cause they couldn't seem to figure out that stabilized at 125kts isn't as good as floating around 120 kts.  It's the "old habits" argument, that the standards flown to are more strict than the CPL, and the 1,000 hr guys sometimes find it tricky to break the habits.  Hell, sometimes (I saw a bunch) those CPL habits and sense of "already know how to do this stuff" just helped guys get to the PRB.

Yes, I know I'm stereotyping and just using anecdotal evidence here.  Everyone knows the ATPL guy that's a rockstar in MJ, so obviously it's not everyone with a CPL that has troubles, but I personally know a couple CPL guys wearing Nav wings now.


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## acheo (30 Apr 2008)

> and how up to date they are with circling NDB's.



Well, if you flew up north, you would know a lot about it and you wouldn't need those rules of thumbs to figure out hold entries, intercepts, etc.

I didn't meet a lot of guys in Moose Jaw with commercial time i.e. Commercial air service. Flight instructor in a flight club is not what I meant.

When you shoot aproaches in Chicago, Detroit, Toronto area everyday, the radar square in YMJ, Swift Current, Saskatoon are just basic stuff.

Now, no matter how much flight time and experience you have, if you have the so called "bad attitude", yes you'll end up Navigator.


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## acheo (30 Apr 2008)

> I personally know a couple CPL guys wearing Nav wings now.



and I know* a lot* of flying college guys flying Hornets.....so we're even


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## SupersonicMax (30 Apr 2008)

acheo said:
			
		

> I partially disagree with you supersonic. Any previous experience may help you to a certain point. A private license is not much but if the candidate held an IFR endorsement and flew in a commercial air service, he`ll be a way ahead of the game for the IFR phase. I don`t remember having opened my books during my BIT run because it was my bread and butter in the civilian. The IIT was also pretty easy.
> 
> As for the clearhood, someone with a CPL could find the course easy for the first clearhoood missions but then after a while it makes no difference.
> 
> The military emphasize a lot on aircraft control and I believe this is where the standard is much higher than anywhere else.



It depends how you use your experience.  I've seen an ATPL guy fail the BIT...  Different ways of operating, different standards.

Max


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## hauger (30 Apr 2008)

acheo said:
			
		

> and I know* a lot* of flying college guys flying Hornets.....so we're even



Fair enough, but I have to ask, what's *"a lot"*?  Is there more flying college guys getting the 200 glory hours on the hornet than PPL guys/no PFE guys?  Are you talking about 2, 3, 5, 15, 276?  Contrast that to how many bottomed the course and ended up with their 3rd choice.  

Its actually a really interesting beer-involved argument, does PFE of any type help?  I'm sure someone somewhere has the stats floating around on their hard drive.  It'd be easy to keep track of, just compare experience levels (licence/rating/hours/etc....) against course standings bell curved to represent a standard mix course (remove anomalies like a 90% PFE course from an entire no PFE course).  It'd end arguments of the type of: "well, there was this guy on our course with a multi-IFR CPL from [insert flying college name here] and 1,000 hours flying a caravan and was pretty much a god, therefore multi-IFR CPL and 1,000 hours flying a caravan will find MJ a cakewalk" (or, of course, the vise-versa).  Of course, people here will say you'd never see numbers like that since we like to sell the idea that there's no disadvantage to the no-PFE guy who's thinking of signing the dotted line.



> When you shoot approaches in Chicago, Detroit, Toronto area everyday, the radar square in YMJ, Swift Current, Saskatoon are just basic stuff.



Umm....you did point to point radar squares at 180 kts single pilot with no autopilot in real or simulated IMC for an hour at a time in Chicago, Detroit, or Toronto, shooting different approaches each time?  Neat trick.  I wish I had that experience level when I got to MJ.  I'll concede that PFE with IFR would help enormously, but only to a point.  Shooting vectored approaches isn't all that hard, going around the square again trying to hit the corners while juggling the stick, throttle, radios, change pages in the flips, and brief the approach isn't something I'd guess the average CPL guy does daily.


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## acheo (30 Apr 2008)

> I'll concede that PFE with IFR would help enormously, but only to a point.



Then we both agree. :cheers:


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## MAJONES (5 May 2008)

With regards to previous experience; it won't hurt to have some, but be prepared to learn some different ways of doing things.  I'm about 1/4 of the way through BFT right now.  I have an ATPL and ~2500hrs TT (in my civi life I taught MIFR,Instructor Ratings and Aeros).  What other guys have said about the standards and rate of learning being higher is very true.  I've found myself behind the A/C on more than one occasion, it's just so much more powerful and responsive than anything I'd flown before.  Where my previous experience does help is situational awareness (ie, holding and air picture in you head).
In terms of shortening you time to wings, civi qualifiations do nothing for you.  I got a bypass on PFT, which means that I spent that 3 months on OJT as opposed to at Portage.  I got to BFT the same time as everyone else from my BOTC.  What will help you get to BFT faster is being bilingual.  If you can skip SLT you get 'owned' by the Air Force sooner (as opposed to CFRG) and put on the list for BFT sooner.


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## benny88 (5 May 2008)

How recent is that Majones? Taking a look at some SLT threads it seems to be the consensus that Anglo pilots will not do SLT.


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## Zoomie (5 May 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Taking a look at some SLT threads it seems to be the consensus that Anglo pilots will not do SLT.



The most recent batch of OJT's that are arriving at the Squadron's have just come off of 8 months of SLT - so that period of skipping SLT is over.


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## Astrodog (5 May 2008)

I'll second that, just having escaped that CFLS (luckily only after a couple of months) and, worse yet, having friends stuck there until november, Anglo pilots are doing SLT. In fact, ONLY pilots and PAFFOs are doing SLT.


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## zorro (5 May 2008)

Benny,

See this thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/70923.0.html

Looks like your stay at the MEGA might be more prolongued than we thought lol.

Was posted relatively recently so I would assume its accurate info.


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## benny88 (6 May 2008)

Zorro that list says only Francophone pilots require SLT, which is different from what Astrodog and Zoomie are saying. (Thanks for the update guys) The wait for BFT is over a year anyways, I'd prefer OJT at a squadron, but SLT won't be so bad. Gonna start trying to better my french now, so I can leave the Mega ASAP.


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## TheCheez (6 May 2008)

I believe the "French Only" means thats the only language you're required to learn.


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## Astrodog (6 May 2008)

Wait for BFT is only about 6mo right now from what I've seen, AND on the plus side your wait doesn't start until you get your profile! No no wait, I meant down side.


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## Adamant (6 May 2008)

The wait for PFT   is about 6 months.  Being on the BFT list right now I can safely say that I finished Portage Jan and will not be going to MJ until November at the earliest, provided I don't get bumped by By-pass people again.  ( was originally supposed to be there in July, but hey it's all pensionable time)


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## brian_k (6 May 2008)

TheCheez said:
			
		

> I believe the "French Only" means thats the only language you're required to learn.



 When it says 'Yes - FOL-French Only', FOL means First Official Language. This reads to me like only those with French as their FOL need to take SLT. Also with English being a requirement to fly into most places it only makes sense to be teaching English at SLT. The rest of us will probably be given SLT when we require it.


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## benny88 (7 May 2008)

brian_k said:
			
		

> When it says 'Yes - FOL-French Only', FOL means First Official Language. This reads to me like only those with French as their FOL need to take SLT.



    As pilot instruction is in English, this seems right to me.



			
				brian_k said:
			
		

> The rest of us will probably be given SLT when we require it.



   That's how I read it. Not much use speculating, I'm sure everyones situation will be different. Cheers.


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## MAJONES (7 May 2008)

As for the SLT, I did my OJT at CFRC Toronto (finished in Jan).  The direction that we recieved was that anglo pilots still did SLT.  That was part of all their enrolment messages.  That may have changed since I left, but given the current wait for Portage and MJ, I doubt it.


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## inferno (11 May 2008)

I'd love to see a PFT wait time of only 6 months?

My timings so far?
16weeks IAP/BOTP
33 weeks SLT
365 Days OJT (Posting at OJT date, to PFT date.)

From what I've seen for guys returning from PFT. 6-8 months of OJT before MJ.

Anyone tells you that its going to be anything less then 22-24 months before you get to sit in the Grob is just lieing. (Assuming you don't already speak fluent french.)


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## pipstah (24 May 2008)

I guess the big wait is to get to Moose Jaw and complete the course. We were 4 guys that learned to fly 3 types of aircraft in less than a year... so just get ready in case the snowball start to go down! You never know when you can go on fast speed!


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