# An Islamic Reformation?



## a_majoor (10 Sep 2016)

The idea of the need for an Islamic Reformation, or asking "why Islamic moderates don't speak out against extremism" may have been answered in part. This information and these links were passed to me today, it is significant that AFAIK there has been no reporting on this in the Western media, particularly not in any mainstream media that I am aware of.

http://defence.pk/threads/suuni-conference-2016-exculdes-saudi-qatari-clerics.447333/



> *Suuni conference 2016 exculdes Saudi/Qatari clerics*
> Discussion in 'Middle East & Africa' started by mohsen, Sep 2, 2016.
> 
> http://www.timesheadline.com/world/100-muslim-clerics-attend-sunni-conference-chechnya-3423.html
> ...



http://www.firstpost.com/world/islamic-conference-in-chechnya-why-sunnis-are-disassociating-themselves-from-salafists-2998018.html



> *Islamic conference in Chechnya: Why Sunnis are disassociating themselves from Salafists*
> 
> The world’s premier pan-Arab daily newspaper, Asharq Al-Awsat, reported that an international Islamic conference was organised in Grozny, a city in Chechnya with more than 100 top Muslim clerics from all around the world. The agenda was to take an uncompromising stand against the growing Takfiri terrorism that is playing havoc across the world.
> 
> ...


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## George Wallace (11 Sep 2016)

There is the possibility that they are going through a Reformation, so to speak, and it is not going in the direction we hoped.  Can we even set the timeline straight as to the current problems in the Islamic world?


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## Edward Campbell (11 Sep 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There is the possibility that they are going through a Reformation, so to speak, and it is not going in the direction we hoped.  Can we even set the timeline straight as to the current problems in the Islamic world?




Very true, and lets not forget that our _*reformation*_ took over 200 years to accomplish and it was a simpler thing than that which faces the world's Muslims.

Our, Western Christian *reformation* (Christendom had already split into East and West) had many "threads," many of which have never quite come together, but it was, I believe it is fair to say, an essential foundation of the _*enlightenment*_, which was actually far more important and which is what some Muslim societies really need if they are even going to survive past the 21st century.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (11 Sep 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There is the possibility that they are going through a Reformation, so to speak, and it is not going in the direction we hoped.  Can we even set the timeline straight as to the current problems in the Islamic world?



"we", the west, have limited to no ability to set any timeline straight within a different culture as the last 15 years in Afghanistan and Iraq have demonstrated. Same as how the 30 year war and reformation of christianity couldn't be influenced by the Ottoman Empire, the muslim world needs to sort out it's issue and come to their own outcome, whether we like it or not.


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## Kirkhill (11 Sep 2016)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Very true, and lets not forget that our _*reformation*_ took over 200 years to accomplish and it was a simpler thing than that which faces the world's Muslims.
> 
> Our, Western Christian *reformation* (Christendom had already split into East and West) had many "threads," many of which have never quite come together, but it was, I believe it is fair to say, an essential foundation of the _*enlightenment*_, which was actually far more important and which is what some Muslim societies really need if they are even going to survive past the 21st century.



What do you mean "it took"?  Is it finished?

http://www.redeemer-canrc.ca/history

The reformed reformers reforming.


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## a_majoor (11 Sep 2016)

Of course this is an evolutionary process, but for high ranking Islamic scholars to come together like this is an important public first step.

One thing which has become clear to me is that Islam, much like Judaism isn't run by theological arguments and interpretation as by legal interpretations (similar in intent to Jewish Talmudic and rabbinic law). So it isn't as "easy" as having the Pope deliver a Papal encyclical or hearing a pronouncement by the Archbishop of Canterbury or the seven ecumenical councils of the Orthodox Church. Regardless, this provides the majority of Shia Muslims with a legitimate means of countering radicalism, and should be welcomed by all of us as well.


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## AbdullahD (12 Sep 2016)

Yasi Qadhi FB said:
			
		

> Sadly, sectarianism is still well and alive in the Ummah.
> 
> Recently, a large group of scholars, primarily of a Sufi/Ashari trend, gathered in Chechnya for a conference whose pre-planned and coordinated conclusion was to claim that Atharis (or 'Salafis') were not a part of Sunni Islam, and hence were to be considered a heretical school. The fact that this conference was sponsored and planned by some of the most repressive government regimes in the world, for political purposes, and with a sectarian agenda, and indirectly supported by Western powers, was ignored by followers of that strand of Islam as the conference reached its foregone conclusion, simply because some of their own esteemed figures, such as Habib Ali al-Jifry, were involved in and in charge of organizing it. Narry a word of protest was heard against this shameless debacle of a conference by mainstream, moderate followers of that trend.
> 
> ...





			
				Yasir Qadhi said:
			
		

> For the record, my stance on both issues is as follows:
> I believe Atharism and Ash'arism are all within the fold of Sunni Islam, and I also believe that the differences between these strands and other Sunni strands should NEVER lead to animosity and hatred. Rather, tensions should be minimized and the average Sunni has no need or concern worrying about the advanced issues of theology that these groups differ over. Let those who deal with those issues discuss it at the proper level amongst themselves. Especially in this day and age, the Muslim world has far more pertinent concerns.
> 
> And I believe that Sunni theology is the valid and correct one, and that Shi'ism has beliefs that are wrong and misguided. Sunnism and Shi'ism have been separate and distinct for the last thirteen centuries, and it is naive to speak of 'unity' between them, for our differences are too many and too important to ignore. Nonetheless, Sunnis and Shi'ites should 'live and let live' and not resort to violence or killing, as that is impermissible. Debate and dialogue is necessary; blanket excommunication and physical harm is impermissible. And I also follow the mainstream Sunni position regarding Twelver Shi'ism: that they are from the groups within Islam that have deviated in some principles from the truth. I strenuously disagree with those who consider the entire group outside the fold of Islam, and in fact this is a very small and minority position (historically speaking) of the mainstream body of Sunnis.



So from my understanding and from what some of my Salafi friends.. who are not terrorists will take from this... all salafis are now kafr and these scholars have now become takfiris. Takfiris go around claiming people are no longer Muslim, like these people just did... at least from what I understood from the links.

I respect anyone trying to help Islam... but sometimes when you try you fail. I am extremely skeptical of any benefits this may have... and I am extremely critical of Salafis... but to kall them kafr scares me.

I just got back from hunting, ill review in more detail later. Thanks for sharing thucydides.

Abdullah


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## Edward Campbell (12 Sep 2016)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> What do you mean "it took"?  Is it finished?
> 
> _That's why I mentioned the "many "threads, many of which have never quite come together." When our (Western Christian) reformation was done, and I think 1688 (only coincidentally the year of the Glorious Revolution)  is a good year to say that it was so complete as to make the seemingly endless inter-sectarian squabbles amongst Christian sects almost meaningless (except, of course, for the few hundred the true believes (per squabble) for whom they are quite vital). We, the Anglo-French led, end of the renaissance, West barely had a moment to catch our philosophical breaths when John Locke wrote Two Treatises of Government, in 1869, and David Hume wrote A Treatise of Human Nature in 1739, and, thereby, launched on a 100+ years of the tumultuous enlightenment.
> 
> ...


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## AbdullahD (13 Sep 2016)

I just wanted to explain my position a little better.. just so no one can think I sympathize with the terrorist pigs at all.

In Islam their is very strict requirements for calling a person a non-believer and if you call someone a non-believer when he is actually a believer you render yourself outside the fold of Islam. As shown in this hadith;



			
				Mohammad sws said:
			
		

> If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.'' (Abu Dawud, Book of Sunna, edition published by Quran Mahal, Karachi, vol. iii, p. 484)



Now the religious requirements to call the person a kafr... ill use links here, it is simply to much to post.. it is an extremely, extremely dangerous topic.

https://islamqa.info/en/85102

A seven page pdf file
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/downloads/pdf/MNJ090006.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj1tInou4vPAhXJmR4KHcUJBagQFgghMAE&usg=AFQjCNF_XTWi8QYi6Wsx8h1zbxWxo4iqZQ&sig2=hvKOo51KJhCKYaQ-tr6Qnw

And now a fairly extensive read up on Salafi Islam, from someone who used to be a salafi and is critical of their viewpoint.
http://muslimmatters.org/2014/04/22/on-salafi-islam-dr-yasir-qadhi/

Now Mufti Aasim Rashid, has himself, called these daesh pigs kafr's I was listening to him lecture in person maybe about two years ago. So due to the reasons he stated, such as the wholesale slaughter of innocents etc, I also follow his opinion they are in particular kafrs. But! Neither him, at least not that I heard of nor I, consider all Salafi's Kafr. You can watch videos by Mufti Aasim at this link;

http://lectures.ihsan.ca

I have zero doubts some percentage of Salafis are kafr, but to call them all kafr is an extremely unwise move in my opinion. Not only are they risking their own hereafter, but they are expanding the divide between Muslims even more. Albeit sadly it was predicted, but that is another topic falling under prophecy 

So I do appreciate the effort these guys put out, honestly and truely and yes it can be said certain Muslims need reformation. But not all of us do, at least in my opinion and to start this way seems to be getting off on the wrong foot... but then again, I have not done that Much either so who am I to judge. Maybe they are right... but until I am shown the error of my ways, I will believe the extremists to be kafr and everyone else, however misguided to be Muslim.

Abdullah


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## a_majoor (14 Sep 2016)

Since I am not an Iman or scholar, I'm not going to be able to debate this in a meaningful way. What is apparent to me, anyway, is that a cross section of Islamic scholars and Imans with the knowledge and authority to do so have interpreted Islamic law to "excommunicate" the more violent and extremist elements in the Sunni fold. If they actually can do so or are wise to do so requires a level of knowledge and understanding that I do not possess (much like I'm not going to go head to head with His Holiness the Pope on his pronouncements either).

The first order effects which are important to both observant Muslims and non Muslims alike is that these scholars have effectively told their followers that the "law" does _not_ support the interpretations of the radicals (who also claiming to follow a "legal" interpretation of Islam), and they now have a valid argument "in law" to repudiate the arguments the radicals are putting forward. The second order effects is to delegitimize Imans who preach radicalism, undercutting their basis of support and potentially cutting away their followers. Starving radicals of support and preventing them from increasing their foothold in the community. The third order effect is to answer the Western question "where are the moderates and why are they not speaking out against the radicals. One thing the radicals have tried to do (with some success) is to isolate the muslim community in Western nations and drive a wedge between the communities to provide a more fertile recruiting ground for radicalism.

So for the moment, we should be supporting this initiative, helping our friends against the radicals and leave the theological and Islamic law complexities to the experts.


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## AbdullahD (15 Sep 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Since I am not an Iman or scholar, I'm not going to be able to debate this in a meaningful way. What is apparent to me, anyway, is that a cross section of Islamic scholars and Imans with the knowledge and authority to do so have interpreted Islamic law to "excommunicate" the more violent and extremist elements in the Sunni fold. If they actually can do so or are wise to do so requires a level of knowledge and understanding that I do not possess (much like I'm not going to go head to head with His Holiness the Pope on his pronouncements either).



Thucydides, I have come to respect your view of this world and your insight into how it works. I also hope more people like you give out the insights they have.. so thank you.

I personally know of some of the scholars who attended that conference and the amount of knowledge they have is immense, so I am sure they have good reasons for unanimously voting to label Salafi's as outside the fold of ahlu'sunnah and without knowing their reasons for doing so I can not be definitive in my position I guess. But suffice to say I am extremely, extremely hesitant in accepting that particular fatawa, one of the Major reasons is because Salafi's are not all one monolithic evil ideology. Their are Salafi's who believe democracy is Islamic, that Jihad is not just the literal kind and many many other issues... so to label non violent salafis kafr makes me stop and listen.. closely.

But their could be something that has evolved in Salafi aqeedah as a whole that takes them outside the fold of Islam and if that is the case, I accept it completely, albeit sadly. Another such group already exists and they say they are Muslim and yet their beliefs take them outside the fold of Islam, so their is precedent for it too. But even if this ruling is right, I won't believe all salafis to be evil, corrupt, baby killers.. I will just believe some are 



> The first order effects which are important to both observant Muslims and non Muslims alike is that these scholars have effectively told their followers that the "law" does _not_ support the interpretations of the radicals (who also claiming to follow a "legal" interpretation of Islam), and they now have a valid argument "in law" to repudiate the arguments the radicals are putting forward. The second order effects is to delegitimize Imans who preach radicalism, undercutting their basis of support and potentially cutting away their followers. Starving radicals of support and preventing them from increasing their foothold in the community. The third order effect is to answer the Western question "where are the moderates and why are they not speaking out against the radicals. One thing the radicals have tried to do (with some success) is to isolate the muslim community in Western nations and drive a wedge between the communities to provide a more fertile recruiting ground for radicalism.



Deobandi's, Barelvi's, Athari's, Asha'ri's etc etc and all their attendant camps have already denounced the extremists and said Islamic law does not under any circumstances allow these grotesque acts the extremists do. But I do agree this is a larger more public step, which was definetly needed to be seen.. I am just critical of calling all Salafi's Kafr.

For all I care preachers (of any religion or ideology) who are preaching hate, calling for "followers" to kill innocent civilians, legitimizing the rape and enslavement of people, torture etc.. take them  out back and ***** them. So I can definetly say I am with you on your second order.

Yes it is sad that the third point exists, but it does so it needs to be dealt with. The more isolated Muslims become the more idiot preachers who are not worth anything have minds to prey on and corrupt. The solution seems simple, ie we all sing kumbaya together.. but it is very hard sadly.



> So for the moment, we should be supporting this initiative, helping our friends against the radicals and leave the theological and Islamic law complexities to the experts.



The enemy of my enemy, is my friend. Daesh and all extremists are my enemies, anyone who is trying to fight them in whatever way they can have my support. But that doesn't mean I don't have my reservations. Yasir Qadhi is a very well known teacher and ex salafi, so in the Islamic world his words have weight and I have adopted parts of his opinion in this particular matter.

But you are 110% I have no more right or ability to debate these matters then you do. Let the Mufti's fight the theological battles and we can do something else while they hash it out. 

Abdullah


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