# ASW Dead?



## SHF (9 Nov 2005)

"ASW is dead" is a quote buzzing around the airforce community attributed to a very senior air force officer.  Although this pronouncement might seem a reality today.  It is short-sighted to think of it as a strategic reality of tomorrow.  Apparently some folks believe our allies can conduct ASW on our behalf.  Could anyone out there please tell me which allied countery has the dedicated aircraft resources to solely conduct ASW (this is bait for those of you who might speculate, be sure of your facts).  The government and DND are on the road to procuring "a big honking ship" (JSS).  It will carry the battle group to the fray and sit off shore offering C&C.  In this posture, any country offended by Canada's presence, need only sail and submerge her rusted out Romeo or newer Daphne and without ASW assets in place, Canada could not afford to send her very valuable ships into harms way.  

For those of you who have specialized in ASW and feel pushed aside, I recommend you maintain your skills and stay ready.  Surely somewhere in this transformation, someone will recognize the need for a multi-faceted force and readily articulate the need for ASW and a battlefield requirement.


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## Infanteer (9 Nov 2005)

I do think ASW will shift, like the rest of Naval Warfare, from Blue to Brown.  Will this impact how we do things at all with regards to ASW?


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## SHF (9 Nov 2005)

After we finished shadowing Russian SSBNs years ago, we spent time figuring how to work with our frigates and their new "tails".  Our foray into direct support with the naval task group was developed over the nineties.  We have spent the last 5-7 years regularly exercising and operating in the littoral environment.  The same environmental and tactical difficulties we face in trying to detect our target are shared by the OPFOR sub.  His advantage is surprise.  My realized fears are our country possessing valuable ASW forces and ignoring them to the detriment of the crews and equipment.  This concerns the army guys and citizens of Canada as your lifeline in the new forces will come from sea.


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## aesop081 (9 Nov 2005)

SHF said:
			
		

> After we finished shadowing Russian SSBNs years ago, we spent time figuring how to work with our frigates and their new "tails".   Our foray into direct support with the naval task group was developed over the nineties.   We have spent the last 5-7 years regularly exercising and operating in the littoral environment.   The same environmental and tactical difficulties we face in trying to detect our target are shared by the OPFOR sub.   His advantage is surprise.   My realized fears are our country possessing valuable ASW forces and ignoring them to the detriment of the crews and equipment.   This concerns the army guys and citizens of Canada as your lifeline in the new forces will come from sea.



I couldnt agree more. In my limited experience, ASW is a very perishable skillset that has been fine-tuned over several years and cannot be "re-learned" overnight if, lets say China or DPRK, decide to use their subs. I was just in SOCAL doing ASW cooperating with surface action groups, doing TASS co-op and brown water ops with SSN and SSK targets.  takes alot of skill on part of both the ships and the MPA crews.

"ASW is dead", i'm pretty sure which senior air force officer said that.  I just hope the writting isn't on the wall


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## SHF (9 Nov 2005)

AESOP 081,

What happened to the excited 415 AESOP who loved Greenwood ;D?

You have been assimilated my fellow warrior.


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## Infanteer (9 Nov 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> "ASW is dead", i'm pretty sure which senior air force officer said that.   I just hope the writting isn't on the wall



Another reason I feel the Navy and Army should be given their own Air Arms.  Let the Air Force focus on the sky.


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## aesop081 (9 Nov 2005)

SHF said:
			
		

> AESOP 081,
> 
> What happened to the excited 415 AESOP who loved Greenwood ;D?



You've got me confused for someone else......haha....."loved Greenwood"....Thats funny

Now excuse me while i got hug a tree


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## SHF (9 Nov 2005)

I agree Infanteer, and I have been airforce 23 of my 27 years.   I haven't heard yet if the senior navy folks have heard about the senior air force comments.   I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.   Canada, UK, Australia, and NZ all have their MPA flown by air force crews.   Most other countries use naval aviators.   The career path and esprit de corps would serve everyone better if we worked for the people we serve.   It would breakdown the us/them mentality.   That would make AESOP081 a potential petty officer.   I wonder how he feels?


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## aesop081 (9 Nov 2005)

SHF said:
			
		

> I agree Infanteer, and I have been airforce 23 of my 27 years.   I haven't heard yet if the senior navy folks have heard about the senior air force comments.   I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.   Canada, UK, Australia, and NZ all have their MPA flown by air force crews.   Most other countries use naval aviators.   The career path and esprit de corps would serve everyone better if we worked for the people we serve.   It would breakdown the us/them mentality.   That would make AESOP081 a potential petty officer.   I wonder how he feels?



And that would make you a LT.  I say bring it on....FLY NAVY !!  It would make things easier if we spoke the same language, took the same course ( I.E. maritime warfare course) and drank in the same mess...but that only this new guy's opinion.

ASW is not dead, as we have dicussed on this site before. SSKs are proliferating and AIP technology makes our lives even harder.  Its not going to go away because the CDS is army.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Nov 2005)

I remember those discussions too well....


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## NCRCrow (9 Nov 2005)

ASW is dead!!! Is correct.

MIO and ELINT are the new buzz words! 

White Shipping correlated to SEI fused w/ IMINT and then passed real time to MIO Commanders is the reality of all MPA's crews minus Canada.(run out of string)

The days of hunting the Caterpillar propultion system are but a memory.

ASW is dead until something bad happens, then its in vogue.

I agree, the Scorpene's/Kilo's and Amurs will have there day in the sun against us.


Crow


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## SHF (9 Nov 2005)

Oh stop Crow  , as Dragoon indicated, I'm a one trick pony and ASW is my passion.  ELINT is not a branch of warfare, MIO is a prelude to warfare.  You speak of current realities for some countries.  Would you train our infantry only in hand to hand combat and exclude anti-armour tactics.  Would you train our ships only in anti-surface tactics and ignore the other dangers.  If we are to remain and become the well rounded capable force that Canadians and politicians want (and we want), we have to prepare for all viable threats.  I do hope you're yanking my chain...


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## Cloud Cover (9 Nov 2005)

So ... are you saying the Cyclone is not going to be primarily an ASW platform? I understand the MPA might not be tasked with that as frequently until it is finally deleted from the flight line, [likely never to be replaced] but the Cyclone surely will not be acquired and then left sitting pretty in the FFH hangar?


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## NCRCrow (10 Nov 2005)

Okay AAW/ASuW vice MIO and ELINT..we all good.

I am sure we will get back into ASW with the new helo(for a bit), but ASuW and picture compilation(RMP) is 99 per cent of today's naval warfare. 

See also LRP (OP APOLLO Roto 0-3)

We do train ASW but when we deploy, the SONAR OPS turn into the MIO det. This trend goes back to Sharp Guard 93. The SONAR OPS are even trying to have MIO built into there trade specs.

I will yanking your chain and dream of EMATT exercises vice three sweeps of SNOOP TRAY.

In Canadian naval warfare, ASW is definitely on the back burner.

Crow


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## SHF (10 Nov 2005)

Hey Crow,

So if you were the MFWIC, you would allow all your ASW team trained pers (navy/air) to be retasked and lose their skills until something happens?  I feel you actually make my point for me.  With a little sarcasm,  submarines are not imaginary leprechauns and they have not gone away.  Their threat is very real and their presence can already influence a TF Comd's execution of warfare.  

The original quote "ASW is Dead" infers that the submarine threat to the Canadian Navy and Canadian interests at sea no longer exists.  The last time I reviewed the world OOB for subs, I noted that more countries are procuring increased weapons capability.  If the Navy allows their SONAR Ops' skills to wither away, and if the navy does not impress upon the AF that the CP-140 requires an ASW component, and if the Navy does not ensure that Cyclone crews are ASW capable, the Navy and Canadians will potentially suffer from a sunken ship or disrupt in trade in by sea.  

BTW, EMATTs when programmed properly provide decent training.  The new EMATT will be even more effective. 

Cheers,
SHF


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## NCRCrow (10 Nov 2005)

SHF--Super High Frequencyfor us ELINT'ers)

I agree with you about new diesels such as Kilo's, Scorpene and AMUR being viable force multipliers for smaller countries. See my earlier comment. Especially fitted with the nasty Klub series of missiles. 

I am talking about today's Canadian naval/air reality. ASW is not king like it once was in the late eighties/early nineties. 

NAC OPS were once the elite naval cold warriors, the tide has turned. 

All our naval oriented missions now are MIO in posture from Sharp Guard til now. You cannot argue that.

ASW training is still done but not to the level of the Nipigon and Margaree eras.

I agree with u again about all round warfighting capabilities is important but we do not have a training budget.

Crow going to Rememberance Day ceremony at son's school. 

Out


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Nov 2005)

I think with the eventual and unavoidable proliferation of the UUV and the many variants that will come about, we will end up ignoring ASW at our own peril. It is only a matter of time.


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## NavyShooter (18 Nov 2005)

Well,

As a sonar fixer, I'll slip in a comment or two on this.

We have some of the most reliable sonar gear ever now adays, but there seems to be a trend away from making use of it to its fullest extent.

I've observed EMATTex's where the ship is doing a concurrant ASMD maneuver/AAW game, and they are asking why they don't have contact with the tail!

The lack of understanding by the various levels of command, and the failure of the TASOP/SonarOP world to make the necessities of ASW operations known is a huge problem. 

The best team I ever sailed with for command was a CO/XO combo where the CO played the air/surface game, and the XO was a Sub Captain....the CO would walk out of the OPS room and turn the ship over to the XO for the duration of the ASW stuff.  

Now we have people in the chain who think that the Tail is like a Radar....put it in the water and you'll immediately gain contact, and hold it, and track, just like with an SPS-49 or SG-150!!  

I think the lack of our own subs being out playing with us for the past several years has been part of this trend away from ASW awareness, but also the operations our ships have been on, which have concentrated mostly on MIO, and not ASW....so in order to keep from being Stb Lookout for 24/7, the TASOPs have grabbed something to keep them busy, and I cannot blame them.

We have the gear, we have the people, some of them still have the training, we just need to give them the opportunities, and command needs to listen and learn how to play the ASW game again.

NavyShooter


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## TAS278 (18 Nov 2005)

OK I believe I may be the only Sonar Op here. This is definitely on everyones mind in my field. We have sat idle for a decade waiting for something to come up or someone to tell us what to do. We are now starting to grab the bull by the horns and make it on our own. People seem to commonly confused that an ASW problem is a Sonar Op problem, it is not. It is everyones problem. I would hate to see the day when I am in the TAS shack doing MIO and we get a torpedo up the screws. As far as the Air Force goes, I believe that as new gear becomes available for surveillance and no other platform is available to use it they will fill that role. As we address our countries role in the world we will readjust our assets accordingly. 
As for Sharp Guard and Op Apollo, Sharp Guard was a long time ago and more of a learning experience than an op. Op Apollo was a joke at best. It was more of a prelude to the war on Iraq than a Interdiction Op. We spent more time escorting HVU's through the straights than LIO. As a former boarding party member and a Tasop I witnessed first hand how seriously LIO was taken. We were their for PR. To show the world we care about the war on terrorism. How many terrorist were caught by way of sea? 

I love my job and would love to know that there is a bright shiny future ahead for ASW. I would love to see the state of the art gear and more ASW exercises than you can shake a stick at. The reality of it all tells a different future though. We are more likely to see a Surgical Aspect with precision and SF's. Until the day a ship gets killed by a submarine. 
So as said by SHF, keep your skills up boys/girls. The war isn't over, it is just on pause.


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## Ex-Dragoon (18 Nov 2005)

> How many terrorist were caught by way of sea?



4 suspected AQ members were taken by ATh-bs team IIRC, what happened to them, is your guess is as good as mine.


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## TAS278 (21 Nov 2005)

I believe 1 "Quasi"-terrorist was actually  identified. Maybe he was one of the ones that got abused by the American's. .....


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## Ex-Dragoon (21 Nov 2005)

TAS278 said:
			
		

> I believe 1 "Quasi"-terrorist was actually   identified. Maybe he was one of the ones that got abused by the American's. .....



Who cares....we held up our end for the blockade.


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