# Suffield anti-terrorist exercise to find sources of radioactive material



## McG (28 Mar 2005)

> *Suffield anti-terrorist exercise 'realistic'*
> Staff deploy from mobile nuclear lab to find sources of radioactive material
> The Canadian Press
> (Edmonton Journal, 26 Feb 05)
> ...


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## TCBF (28 Mar 2005)

It's a great place.   We did live agent training there in 2003 with Nerve, Blister, etc.  Really gives you confidence in our kit.

Tom


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## JBP (29 Mar 2005)

> It's a great place.   We did live agent training there in 2003 with Nerve, Blister, etc.  Really gives you confidence in our kit.
> 
> Tom



Wow, I am actually suprised and happy we're conduction such intense training. That's awesome even though a small group may be trained! I'm currently on BMQ and we just went through all the NBC training, put the fear of god into me and I don't even believe in god!!! Lol...

Seriously though, it really scared me. The day I'm walking around in a combat area and one of those 3-way papers or ANY detector changes colour etc, I'll cause a biohazard to myself because I'll poop my pants... It's pretty scary stuff but I'm glad to know our equipment works.

Say, how did they use real agents in your training like nerve and blister? I was under the impression nerve agents can cause permanent damage to your body even if your only exposed for a very brief period. If it's possible, could you give us your story of the training?

Thanks, 
Joe - The ever curious Recruit!


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2005)

> Say, how did they use real agents in your training like nerve and blister? I was under the impression nerve agents can cause permanent damage to your body even if your only exposed for a very brief period. If it's possible, could you give us your story of the training?



Joe-

They didn't use real agents to train you during your BMQ.  Certain substances (Mosquito repellant with DEET springs immediately to mind)  share many of the same chemical properties as a Nerve agent and will trigger a positive on three-way paper.

As for chemical agents scaring you- they should not.  The whole point of NBC warfare is to cause a "panic" reaction in your opponent when the agent is used.  Yes, there are some really scary agents out there, but most of them break down fairly quickly when exposed to weathering.  When used, they also tend to affect small geographical areas only. Our gear is amongst the best PPE in the world.  Just learn the drills and try not to worry about it overly much.

Cheers


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## Infanteer (29 Mar 2005)

Have you went into the Gas Hut, Joe?  I am assuming not, seeing how you are doing a weekend course....


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## Matt_Fisher (29 Mar 2005)

Pte (R) Joe said:
			
		

> Seriously though, it really scared me. The day I'm walking around in a combat area and one of those 3-way papers or ANY detector changes colour etc, I'll cause a biohazard to myself because I'll poop my pants... It's pretty scary stuff but I'm glad to know our equipment works.



You want to talk about pucker factor?   

Imagine being in northern Kuwait in March of 2003.   From a restless sleep inside your sand and dust coated mod tent the NBC Alarm goes off.   You start to hear people shouting "Get to the f*cking bunker, there's been a Scud launch!"  You and your buddies scramble to don your MOPP suits and sprint for the bunker.   As you look up into the sky you realize that this time is not a drill.   The heavens are lit up as if it's some whacked out fireworks display.   From over the horizon you can see the Patriot batteries firing off everything they've got in the hopes that they'll hit the incoming Scud.   Just when you don't think your heart can beat any faster it suddenly goes into overdrive and your body is jolted forward as the adrenaline begins to flow into your bloodstream at rates which you've never experienced before.   You slam face down in pit of the pre-cast conrete and sandbag stacked air-raid bunker as you've tripped over somebody's ankles.   Panicking as your mask has been pushed halfway down your face you quickly readjust the seal, and go through your purging procedures.   Fear grips your psyche;   "Did I inhale without the mask on?"   "How long before nerve agent take effect?"   "How the f*ck are they going to tell if my eyeballs are dilating or constricting if I've been exposed...this place is a f*cking black hole...Did anybody bring a flashlight?   Will the atropine work?"   Then you have nothing to do but wait.   Seconds become minutes which become lifetimes.   You begin to relax a bit in that your pulse is slowing and your breathing, while labored from the rubber diaphragm of the mask and canister filter, is slowing down to a more regular rate.

Then you hear a something that causes fear to grip your soul and proceed to try and rip it out of your living being, a sound that you believe to be the very gates of Hades opening and the exodus of Satan's minions has begun...An increasing mechanical scream builds.   It's somewhat like the familar arty sim you've grown so accustomed to during your training, but this is different.   It's deeper, more menacing.   Not the shrill whistle, but more of a deep whooshing whup-whup-whup that builds like a freight train and then a dull thud followed by silence, only broken by the Darth Vader like breathing patterns of the Marines huddled around you in the bunker.

What had been a scud missile has landed some 2 miles from your position, but 2 miles too close for comfort given the fears of some sinister chemical agent oozing out of the battered carcass of the missile.

Eventually, the all-clear is given once the remnants of the missile have been checked for evidence of chemical and biological agents and the site is cleared uncontaminated.   You've never been so scared and you've never felt so alive.   You and your buddies start laughing about the whole episode, as laughter amongst your brothers is the best form of reassurance to a frightened soul.

Pucker factor...you better believe it.


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## TCBF (29 Mar 2005)

"Say, how did they use real agents in your training like nerve and blister? I was under the impression nerve agents can cause permanent damage to your body even if your only exposed for a very brief period. If it's possible, could you give us your story of the training?"

This was part of the NBCDO crse in spring 03.  The NBCDNCO crse and others will also have some live agent trg.  Other than CS or similar in the gas hut, you prob won't see this until you get advanced NBCD Trg.  

BUT: Your kit is GOOD.  I wore it while decontaminating a Blister Agent coated Lynx with CASCAD, and looking for Blister and Nerve in a simulated "lab".  The kit is good.

So is the trg site at Suffield.  Some of our allies - who are not allowed to do live agent trg in their own countries - like it there as well.  If you are really into this stuff, try getting into the Joint NBC Coy at Trenton.

Tom


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## JBP (29 Mar 2005)

> Posted by: SeaKingTacco
> Insert Quote
> Quote
> Say, how did they use real agents in your training like nerve and blister? I was under the impression nerve agents can cause permanent damage to your body even if your only exposed for a very brief period. If it's possible, could you give us your story of the training?
> ...




Yeah I know we didn't use real agents for our BMQ, we didn't use anything at all. I was asking HIM about the live-agents, and yeah they warned us that bug repellant etc etc will set the stuff off...



> Posted by: Infanteer
> Insert Quote
> Have you went into the Gas Hut, Joe?  I am assuming not, seeing how you are doing a weekend course....



We're going to the gas hut either April 15 weekend or April 29th weekend... My goal is simply to try and not be the first one in!




> Posted by: Matt_Fisher
> Insert Quote
> Quote from: Pte (R) Joe on Today at 12:40:26
> 
> ...




You painted a very dark and frightening picture in my mind of what you went through... The idea of NBC warfare I think has me frightened more so far than any aspect of the training or combat scenarios so far. Having someone shoot at you is obviously going to get your blood pumping, but at least if your shot in the typical "mid section" you probably will die pretty quick... I'm hoping, unless you can be fixed. With the N part of NBC you'd die fast also if your within about 50 miles of a fairly modern Nuke attack (500-700Megaton load)... BC is the scariest part.

Matt, I read a book called "Jarhead" about a Scout/Sniper marine who was in Iraq, very very interesting read. He talked about how those MOPP suits are suppose to be good enough for a marine/soldier to work at full combat effectiveness for 8hrs or so... But they played football in them to show off to the media as an excercise and were exhausted after 30 mins of playing. Basically he said that it was bullsh*t you could last at full combat effectiveness for more than 1/2 tops. Dunno how true that is, course you folks were fighting in a desert so I imagine the heat makes things WAY worse... 

You ever see those beautiful little camel spiders Matt???   I heard they like sleeping with you guys in your tents...

Like I said though, glad to hear the equipent works as well as they said it does, cause the stuff we were shown+put on+trained with and taught with was in complete tatters, with tape and crap all over it. He said we had old crappy one's because it's only for training+because we're a Pres BMQ, makes sense to me, just glad it actually works that's all.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2005)

As an aside, the aircrew NBCW gear is REALLY good.  I've worn it a few times on flights and have actually been cold.  We wear long underwear underneath the suit that has cold water piped through it and our respirators have blowers that give us a positive pressure mask.  Strapping into the aircraft is a bit like getting into the space shuttle, with hoses and battery packs and wires everywhere, but I wasn't even sweaty after a 2 hour flight in 35C heat.

Now, had we ditched at sea, I would have been a dead man.  I doubt that I would have been able to get unhooked from all of the hoses, etc, get out of the aircraft and then get the helmet, hood and mask off without drowning.  The filter for the mask will basically plug solid if  you get it wet...

Cheers


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## MJP (29 Mar 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> This was part of the NBCDO crse in spring 03.   The NBCDNCO crse and others will also have some live agent trg.   Other than CS or similar in the gas hut, you prob won't see this until you get advanced NBCD Trg.



The hard part is getting the permission from the unit to go on the training for some of the newer NBCW courses.  I'm sure there are spots that the area/brigade get but it's never really delved down to te unit and when you ask for the training they give the standard "wait till we ask for returns".  



> If you are really into this stuff, try getting into the Joint NBC Coy at Trenton.



Been trying....to bad the Jack positions are full.


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## Acorn (29 Mar 2005)

Keep one thing in mind:

NBCD is the only aspect of warfare where good equipment and good training virtually guarantees survival. All the training in the world won't stop bullets.

The key is to not let the fear become irrational (which is easy to say, when one isn't faced with a twitching, mouth-foaming death).

Acorn


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## Cdn Blackshirt (29 Mar 2005)

I know the US D.O.E. has a number of helicopters with radiological detection systems.  Are we up to that standard yet or are we using all handheld equipment?



Matthew.   ???


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## Marshall (29 Mar 2005)

The CF has the ability to mount sensors in our helos.  It's a gamma detector and provides a digital map of the readings in relation to the ground.  (I'll bet that most helo pilots don't even know this) There is no extra trg required for the helo crew and the instrument can be set up in a matter of minutes.  As for the earlier comments in this thread, Suffield is probably the best live agent trg (real chemical warfare agent) in the Western world.  The standard crses at CFNBCS do not normally offer live agent trg as the cost is prohibitive.  The series of crses that ran a couple of years ago that did it were already in Edmonton and had been able to justify it.  The only standard crse from CFNBCS that does this routinely is the Adv NBCD Offr, and it only does very basic "find the puddle of mustard and wash it off.."  However, without a doubt, the CF is as good or better than the best in this field.  The general problem is that most field units etc... think that the gas hut is either all that needs to be done, or all that can be done.   I'm new here but I know my NBCD.


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## nULL (28 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Have you went into the Gas Hut, Joe?  I am assuming not, seeing how you are doing a weekend course....



I'm on a weekend course, and just finished the gas hut last weekend. I was kind of surprised how easy it was - the drills really work! That said, there was a stage in it where we had to go into the gaseous environment without our mask protective, and for the next two days I was hocking up phlegm that i'm sure dated back to 1994.

During the NBC warfare part of my course, one question always came to mind; if the effectiveness and lethality of these agents is not in doubt, then why aren't we using them? (With the exception of CS gas of course)


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## TCBF (28 Apr 2005)

" if the effectiveness and lethality of these agents is not in doubt, then why aren't we using them? (With the exception of CS gas of course)"

Could you be more specific?  Using them for what?


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## JBP (28 Apr 2005)

Went into the gas hut 2 weeks ago. I didn't personally find it that bad. Equipment worked well, it served it's purpose because now I have more confidence in the equipment and our training.

Some people certainly didn't handle it so well, my face was burning and felt like it was going to melt off, but I didn't breath too much of it in and didn't choke that much, stung my nose too. Some people were coughing like crazy, snot+other fluid down to thier knees and all. Pretty gross.

Question about nerve agents, say they begin entering your system and start working, you do the floppy chicken on the floor, get your 2 injections+1 anti-convulsant and hour or so later your not in great shape but you can get up etc..

Is the damage permanent to your nervous system? Or after the agent leaves your system are you fully restored? Our course staff couldn't answer that. I would think since it attacks your nervous system it _could_ be permanent...

Joe


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## TCBF (28 Apr 2005)

Acetylcholinesterase will naturally regenerate slowly, but there will be other long lasting effects.

Detoxification rates; GA - sight bu definite; GB - Cumulative; (No GC, GC was the medical abvn for some STDs), GD - Low detox, essentially cumulative; GF - Low detox rate;  VX - low, essentially cumulative;  Vx (V sub X) - low, essentially cumulative.  Ref; Matrix "Biological and Chemical Agent Characteristics", prep by ANSER www.anser.org.  

Also: Google "nerve agent detoxification rates" and lose yourself for a few hours.

Have fun.


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## TCBF (28 Apr 2005)

"Is the damage permanent to your nervous system? Or after the agent leaves your system are you fully restored? Our course staff couldn't answer that. I would think since it attacks your nervous system it could be permanent..."

In severe cases, "other" damage is permanent.  Use google, check Chap 5 of the RAND paper.


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## TCBF (28 Apr 2005)

Google "Cyclosarin" as well.


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## TCBF (29 Apr 2005)

Good link!  You pass that one on to Trenton and Borden?


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## TCBF (29 Apr 2005)

Yes.  I will pass it on this aft.


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