# K9 unit



## armchair (11 Feb 2006)

Do you think Canada Army needs dogs trained in patroling bomb sniffing etc.


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## BetterThanTheBest (14 Feb 2006)

I don't think this belongs in the "Weapons & Ammo" forum.


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## Andy (14 Feb 2006)

I think a K9 unit is a great idea.  The americans use them in Bagram and I think every Canadian camp should have them.  

I also agree that this is not the right forum.


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## geo (14 Feb 2006)

It's a funny thing. A lot of K9 reference manuals found in the UK are old CAMTs.
Dogs is a specialty that the CF neglected to the point that it just dissapeared into oblivion.... It's a definite specialty that should be resurected (like many other things).

Might as well add another brick onto pile of "things to do".


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## brin11 (14 Feb 2006)

Perhaps Paracowboy might have the time to interject something here.  I think he has info on this subject.


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## armchair (14 Feb 2006)

BetterThanTheBest said:
			
		

> I don't think this belongs in the "Weapons & Ammo" forum.


When I posted I was not sure if it was the right spot.My thinking was if train properly dogs can be us for both for defence and attack.
As well as finding explosive.Used on foot patrols they can be a great help.Not being people I thought they would be a weapon.


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## Gayson (15 Feb 2006)

I've used search dogs myself on ex.

A WO in my unit is friends with 2 people in the search and rescue buisness and have search dogs.  Occasionally they come out to play with us and we use the dogs in OpFor to track down the troops during there patrols and OP's.  

It's actually been a pretty good training aid.


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## Thompson_JM (15 Feb 2006)

im interested in the Idea... so the question is where would they fit?

specialized role in the infantry? obviously not going to be their own trade I Imagine. part of the MP's even? I dunno... Its pretty far out of my lanes so im just throwing ideas out there. 

the thoughts and opinions from those in the know would be most appreciative.

cheers
   josh


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## armchair (15 Feb 2006)

Any one who is interested in the use of dogs in past conflicts and history of there use just Google (Dogs at War).
I seen somewere on Canadian Army or Combat Camera site photos of the Army using them.
They were dogs train to find mines.The dog were owned by a private group.


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## armchair (15 Feb 2006)

armchair said:
			
		

> Any one who is interested in the use of dogs in past conflicts and history of there use just Google (Dogs at War).
> I seen somewere on Canadian Army or Combat Camera site photos of the Army using them.
> They were dogs train to find mines.The dog were owned by a private group.


Found full storie of dogs and handler that were used at Camp Julien 2005 link is
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Feature_Story/2005/08/08/_f_e.asp


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## Andy (15 Feb 2006)

For some reason the link does not work for me

 >


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## geo (15 Feb 2006)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Feature_Story/2005/08/08_f_e.asp

worse come to worse... go to the forces.gc.ca site, use the search box in the lower left column and do a search on "dogs"..... it will take you right there.


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## armchair (16 Feb 2006)

armchair said:
			
		

> Found full storie of dogs and handler that were used at Camp Julien 2005 link is
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Feature_Story/2005/08/08/_f_e.asp


You are right it does not work. Not being a teckie do not know why.
Try this go DND Website and type in the search:  (dogs)
were site is
 http:forces.gc.ca/


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## GO!!! (16 Feb 2006)

It would be a pretty sweet go to be a K9 handler in the army.

I was thinking though, if your dog bites someone, do you get charged with an ND? NB?


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## Poppa (16 Feb 2006)

A proof of concept is being worked on. Where it stands I don't know...probaly pushed aside by the new found focus on CP. Looking at a possible joint task with engineers and MPs.
LFRR was going to be engaged, trg done by OPS.
If there is any movement I'll let you guys know.

Cheers


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## TCBF (16 Feb 2006)

"It would be a pretty sweet go to be a K9 handler in the army.

I was thinking though, if your dog bites someone, do you get charged with an ND? NB?"

- Non, you merely state:

"Monsieur, that's not my dog."

Tom


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## geo (16 Feb 2006)

The R22R have already decided to form their own K9 corp....
Unfortunately - someone sold em a Billy Goat..... Baaaaaa


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## Bobbyoreo (16 Feb 2006)

Its funny cause alot of countries use dogs for bombsniffing and for MP patrols. I know I saw alot of them in Bosnia with the British. 

This is something I've always been interested in, mostly police dogs myself. I think it would be very useful in Canada and in places of Operations.


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## armchair (16 Feb 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> The R22R have already decided to form their own K9 corp....
> Unfortunately - someone sold em a Billy Goat..... Baaaaaa


I hope you guys still got it you can tell us all about it under the post Mastcots ;D


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## FastEddy (17 Feb 2006)

Poppa said:
			
		

> A proof of concept is being worked on. Where it stands I don't know...probaly pushed aside by the new found focus on CP. Looking at a possible joint task with engineers and MPs.
> LFRR was going to be engaged, trg done by OPS.
> If there is any movement I'll let you guys know.
> 
> Cheers




Admittedly K9 Sections employing Patrol and Sniffer Dogs are a valuable tool in their specialized areas, but one must take into account that Animals specializing in Explosives detection are limited just to that.

Whereas they are able to detect a Explosive Substance (thus; a concealed bomb or device) they would be useless in the detection of Pressure Plates and Trip Wires and other Detonating Devices. Therefore making them useless in mine clearing and for Patrol Units, other than being used to trip those devices, that IMO would certainly be cruel and inhumane.

Cheers.


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## pbi (17 Feb 2006)

Back in the days of AMF(L) deployments to North Norway (Bardufoss, anybody...?), I recall that the Recce Sqn of the Norgies' Brigade North had dogs. The purpose of these teams was explained to me as being the detection of the well concealed Spetsnatz who were expected to begin infiltration well ahead of the Soviet ground offensive. In that sense they were to be used "offensively" by actively going out and hunting down the enemy. I believe the Norgies also had MP dogs for facility protection.

Cheers


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## Brad Sallows (17 Feb 2006)

>"Monsieur, that's not my dog."

So, is the individual safety precaution then: "Does your dohg baht?"


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## TCBF (17 Feb 2006)

"Therefore making them useless in mine clearing and for Patrol Units, other than being used to trip those devices, that IMO would certainly be cruel and inhumane."

- Pigs, on the other hand, might do VERY well at this.  I think that a pig unit may be impractical, however, largely for social/recruiting/retention reasons.  Particularly if it was to be manned as a Military Police unit.

There was an experiment in a Canadian prison involving mice or rats to sniff out drugs.  Extremely effective to the point where guard(s) on the take "forgot" to feed the rats and they "died", thus the experiment was shut down as a failure.

Maybe someone should have "forgot" to feed the guards responsible.

Tom


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## GO!!! (18 Feb 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Pigs, on the other hand, might do VERY well at this.  I think that a pig unit may be impractical, however, largely for social/recruiting/retention reasons.  Particularly if it was to be manned as a Military Police unit.



An MP unit with badged swine ?

must.......not......write.......anymore.....<snicker> ;D


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## spartan308 (18 Feb 2006)

I know that in Bosnia in on Palladium Roto 2 1 RCR and had guys to do the Brit Dog Handler course for Patrol Arm True Dogs and used 2 dogs with Cdn Handlers in drvar for Patrolling and had another dog that could sniff out explosives handled by a brit for a limited time. The dogs were awesome for camp security and foot patrols because they could sniff people as well as work as a visual deterent ( particularly after daily demos to the locals). The main benefits was one dog team could help decrease the amount of guys required for camp security and patrols (within reason). I know the creation of the K9 units at the Rifle Coy level generated alot of buzz and recommendations after they were  proven effective and a lot of demos were given to higher ups. But they stopped sending guys on the course after the following Roto for some reason.


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## FMRWO (28 Apr 2006)

Since leaving the Forces in '98, I have been involved in SAR as a volunteer in a local group: http://www.scr.ca/ . Seeing the dogs perform is amazing. I also raise pups for seeing eye & assistance dog training http://www.mira.ca/ . 

Most people have no clue to the value of trained K9 units. For explosives, booby traps, weapons & ammo caches & personnel detection. On OP, foot patrol, even aboard vehicles & boats dogs can provide valuable services. 

In recent military conflicts with important K9 use such as Vietnam their value has been well documented (between 4000 & 5000 dogs were used in the Vietnam war:
http://www.uswardogs.org/index.html

If the CF developed K9 capability, I'd seriously consider rejoining.


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## Centurian1985 (28 Apr 2006)

Bring back the K-9's!  

If that had been a choice back when I joined I would have liked that one!


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## paracowboy (28 Apr 2006)

as one of a handful of CF pers trained by the Brits as a Dog Handler, and one of far less than a handful trained by them as Dog Trainers, I can only say that dogs are an incredibly versatile tool, useful for far more than simply patrolling compounds, or bomb-sniffing. THey are amazingingly effective at riot control (my dog was awarded the Dicken medal for his work in the Drvar riots. It's the animal equivalent to the VC.), and can be extremely handy on patrols in the woods. The uses are almost limitless.

I honestly cannot emphasize enough what a force multiplier they are.

The only problem we had was that they went back to the Brits over-weight, and a little lazy. And overly-friendly. (That's what happens when a bunch of Canucks have access to dogs and to excellent cooks.) One looked like a beer keg with legs and a tail. :


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## Centurian1985 (28 Apr 2006)

You lucky bugger - when did that happen? Ive never heard of our guys being trained on this before!

(Note to all - You got me! Something I know bugger all about!)


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## paracowboy (28 Apr 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> You lucky bugger - when did that happen? Ive never heard of our guys being trained on this before!
> 
> (Note to all - You got me! Something I know bugger all about!)


'97 - '98. And this should go a long way to identifying me even further. I think I'll just change my screen name to the one my Daddy gave me.

But dogs are an incredible asset. In any phase of war, in peace-keeping (Damn, but I hate that word!), in DOMOPs, basically, anywhere an Infantryman can be employed, a dog can. (Which says something, but I'm not sure what.) The fact that we no longer employ them is criminal, to my mind. Hellfire! They're even trained to parachute in some nations!

I see no reason we couldn't do it based on the Brit model, with a Cdn version of the Royal Army Veterinary Corps.


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## orange.paint (28 Apr 2006)

I dont believe they should be attached to certain units but placed where the need is.I seen a brit air crew had a black lab they would lower in a harness below the merlin.He would run around in a circle check the LZ and sit to the side to indicate it was clear.I though that was really neat.

Just on side note a really cute chick in banja luka had a boarder collie whith gold k-9 teeth,that was cool.


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## FormerHorseGuard (28 Apr 2006)

i thought at one time the 2Mp unit at Pet. had a MP and his dog for drugs.  I heard he got out and went to the OPP and took the dog with him. I thought dogs would make good members of the MP coy for various duties. drugs, search for people, bombs, etc. but i guess the cost out weighs the benefits. i am sure if we stay in some places long enough some one with some gold on the uniform will see the need and they will get them


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## TN2IC (28 Apr 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> It would be a pretty sweet go to be a K9 handler in the army.
> 
> I was thinking though, if your dog bites someone, do you get charged with an ND? NB?



HAHAHA... good one GO!!! I would think no... but that is me.... meh.. I"ll sleep on it.


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## paracowboy (28 Apr 2006)

GO!!! was making a funny. (Well, trying to, with his limited intellect, and all, Bless the li'l feller.) But, yeah, if our dog bit someone without us telling him to, it was considered the equivalent to an ND.


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## wdewitt (2 May 2006)

Dogs are a good tool for many tasks and also they will make a good partner. The British use a large pig that sniff out drugs and other items in heathor airport. Dogs are cheap to train and cost is low tech.
The CSC has start to use dogs to seek out drugs in there institutions for 10yrs. Drug coming in have drop just having the dog at the front door. In one institution they have caught over $23,500 in a four day peroid.


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## Centurian1985 (2 May 2006)

On cost I have to disagree.  Yeah they are cheap to train (in equipment and food), but doesnt it take a while to train these pups? Plus the housing, health and vets, fenced areas, screening soldiers to match the dogs, screening out dogs that 'dont have what it takes', etc.  Any experts able to comment on this?


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## paracowboy (2 May 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> On cost I have to disagree.  Yeah they are cheap to train (in equipment and food), but doesnt it take a while to train these pups? Plus the housing, health and vets, fenced areas, screening soldiers to match the dogs, screening out dogs that 'dont have what it takes', etc.  Any experts able to comment on this?


well, the Brit model isn't that pricey, over all. 

They aren't trained from birth. It only takes a few weeks, with the proper selection. There's a Sr NCO of the RAVC whose only job is to drive around the British Isles and play with dogs. That's the selection process.

You see, in the UK (at least in the late '90s, anyway) if any dog bit a human twice, for any reason, it was destroyed. The only way to keep your pet alive was to give him to the Army. So, you'd call up the RAVC, and this Sgt would show up. He'd look at the pooch, test him for soundness, and play 'fetch' and 'tug of war'. If the dog was a better 'fetcher', or was a smaller breed, he'd most likely be a search dog.

If he was good at 'tug of war', had a bit of aggression and size to him, he'd likely be a patrol dog. Then he'd get conscripted, which gave him a few more years of life, and be trained. The training is done in such a way that it appeals to his instincts and sense of play. He's taught that it's a game, and most take to it very quickly. They only get fierce when it's real, but that's because he's picking up "Dad's" fear/anger vibes. 

And the ones selected for search roles, aren't fierce at all, for the most part. They're playing! They're playing 'fetch' and 'hide and seek'. 

As for screening the troops, it isn't done. You can ask for it, or be tasked, but it's just another task. You do it for 6 or 12 months, and rotate out when your unit does, or your TA contract expires. Then, someone else takes over your dog. You go through a short course, play with your pooch, learn what he already knows, and bingo! You're a Dog Handler. Your selection process is walking into his kennel when he's snarling and snapping at you through the wire mesh. If you can do it, he'll accept you. (The food dish in your hand helps.) Then you learn to care for him and his equipment, you clean his kennel and kit, and go play "sic 'em"! After he grabs you or his co-handler through the padded sleeve a few times, you guys grab some water, play a bit, and shut 'er down until patrol time.

For those dogs that simply don't have enough aggression, or intelligence, well... They're all already living under a death sentence, and theirs are carried out.

As for housing and such, it'd be pricey at first, but static kennels at a base, once built, would be good for years. Fences would only have to be the standard wire we already use to fence Infantrymen in, in Garrison. Their over-seas kennels are just el cheapo, insta-kennels slapped together, like Home Hardware garden sheds. The Engineers built a huge kennel for them in Camp Maple Leaf. They named it Jurassic Park. It was incredible, and it only took a couple grand and some serious sweat on Echo's part, Bless those boys. (The hard part was keeping them out of the dang thing. Everyone wanted to play with the dogs.)

Vets and such, in the Brit model, is taken care of through the Royal Army Veterinary Corps, whch, of course, we don't have. But, that's not insurmountable, either. We can just lure some of them away with better pay and pensions, like we did with certain other pers. They establish a school, and Robert is your Mother's brother. We're away.

It might be a little pricey at first, but not nearly as much as you might think, and the dividends would be huge! Freakin' *HUGE!* Dogs are amazing Force Multipliers! The psychological impact of a snarling German Shepard or Rottweiler is not to be underestimated. One dog had more impact on a rioting mob of Croats, than an entire armed Infantry platoon. And their usefulness on patrols in Vietnam is legendary. And we all know how effective they are at detecting arms/explosives.

The only downer is that they have to be destroyed after their Service, since they were already condemned. But the Army can give them another several years of life. And a pretty good one, too.


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## geo (3 May 2006)

> Vets and such, in the Brit model, is taken care of through the Royal Army Veterinary Corps, whch, of course, we don't have. But, that's not insurmountable, either. We can just lure some of them away with better pay and pensions, like we did with certain other pers. They establish a school, and Robert is your Mother's brother. We're away.
> 
> 
> > just take those that "wash out" from medical training. If they "screw the pooch" with the pooches - the pooch will bite - how's that for motivating a low achiever


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## geo (3 May 2006)

> And we all know how effective they are at detecting arms/explosives.
> 
> 
> > (and drugs!)


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## FMRWO (3 May 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> ...The only downer is that they have to be destroyed after their Service, since they were already condemned...



As a dog lover & trainer that's a *BIG downer*  for me. It's like putting down soldiers that have seen action, beacause they are "damaged" & their social re-incertion in mainstream society is difficult... I'm sure there's a better way to do things than what has been done before. The handlers ARE further "damaged" when they must leave their K9 behind and knowing they are put down after their period of service must be gut wrenching.

*In my ideal world:* a handler & his K9 are partners and should be treated as such, they train together, serve together & are demobilised together.


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## paracowboy (3 May 2006)

FMRWO said:
			
		

> As a dog lover & trainer that's a *BIG downer*  for me. It's like putting down soldiers that have seen action, beacause they are "damaged" & their social re-incertion in mainstream society is difficult... I'm sure there's a better way to do things than what has been done before. The handlers ARE further "damaged" when they must leave their K9 behind and knowing they are put down after their period of service must be gut wrenching.
> 
> *In my ideal world:* a handler & his K9 are partners and should be treated as such, they train together, serve together & are demobilised together.


that's the beauty of it, here, though. We're using the Brit template, but we can deviate where we like. If we want to keep a dog and handler team together for years, we do so. If we want to allow Rover to retire, we do so. The dog I worked with was allowed to retire by court order, and lived his remaining years on a farm with his retiring human partner of the time.  

The Yanks found this to backfire, though, in Vietnam. Handlers sometimes became *too* attached to their partners and would collapse if Scrappy died, or would refuse to send Scooter into dangerous positions. So, we gotta find a happy medium. Too, many nations won't allow dogs into their borders, if they come from certain countries, due to risk of disease. So, often dogs are posted overseas for the rest of their life, because they aren't allowed back into their home country.

So, if we were to get dogs, we would have to look at the various regulations already governing them, and be sure we can meet those regs, both fiscally, and ethically. (I don't want to be following the German or Russian templates, for instance, as their treatment of dogs is inhumane, entirely, IMO.)


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## Sapper41 (5 May 2006)

As much as it pains me to say I would say that the MP trade is the only full time place for Army K-9. The engineers looked into getting dogs but in the end it was decided that it wasn't feasible. 

I have seen Croation MP dogs and various civilian contractors being used to search for explosives as part of force protection in Afghanistan and worked with Bosnian Army Mine Detecting Dogs in BiH.  In a civilian Demining setting dogs are used for instance in area reduction, meaning they save time and money by showing where the mines are and where they are not.   Dogs need to be rewarded daily to find explosives thus having a dog sitting in garrison would be a waste of money.  In Bosnia teams had to set up a test strip of unfused mines to reward the dog.  This is the same thing in my day job having to bump test our various gas detectors.  Also, if you match a dog and a handler you are going to burn out the member by sending him overseas every year.

My opinion is that while the MP's will have to work closely with the engineers for conducting explosive searches they are in the best position to employ the dog effectively on a 365 days a year basis (overseas or not).

Chimo!

PS: maybe this will make them earn their spec pay


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## paracowboy (5 May 2006)

> Dogs need to be rewarded daily to find explosives thus having a dog sitting in garrison would be a waste of money.


 no more so than having sappers 'sitting in garrison'. Just as the troops in garrison train and pracice, so do the dogs and their handlers. Otherwise, how would they perform their duties for real, and how would they learn to incorporate themselves with other units?



> In Bosnia teams had to set up a test strip of unfused mines to reward the dog.  This is the same thing in my day job having to bump test our various gas detectors.


  this is just a training issue. In the British model I'm experienced with, the dog would not always receive a "reward". Sometimes he didn't find the explosives in practice, just as he wouldn't in real life. For him, the value was in playing 'seek', and for the handler, it was in the training.



> Also, if you match a dog and a handler you are going to burn out the member by sending him overseas every year.


which is why I advocate the British model again. The dog remains in theatre, handlers are switched around, or trained in situ. It also prevents the handler from becoming too attached to the animal, and suffering traumatically should the dog be killed in the line of duty.



> My opinion is that while the MP's will have to work closely with the engineers for conducting explosive searches they are in the best position to employ the dog effectively on a 365 days a year basis (overseas or not).


certain K-9 functions are most clearly identified with MP duties, but others are more so with Infantry, and others yet with Engineers. This is why the Brits maintain the RVAC. A seperate trade, the members of which are trained to work with the animals in their many different types of tasks, and to teach the required skill sets to members of other trades.


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## jranrose (6 May 2006)

I also have very limited knowlege on the topic. But I see a good solution. Better co-operation between the Military and RCMP. We have many things in common. Between training animals (Horses for the Lord Strathcona's vs. musical ride and dogs for the MP's), the PRT, CP and policing. If there were posting's between the two. There are more RCMP on oversea's tasking's than in previous years. I believe that the RCMP and MP's can be better deployed as a joint endevour. All resources put together for a more cost effecticve approach.


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## paracowboy (6 May 2006)

jranrose said:
			
		

> I also have very limited knowlege on the topic. But I see a good solution. Better co-operation between the Military and RCMP. We have many things in common. Between training animals (Horses for the Lord Strathcona's vs. musical ride and dogs for the MP's), the PRT, CP and policing. If there were posting's between the two. There are more RCMP on oversea's tasking's than in previous years. I believe that the RCMP and MP's can be better deployed as a joint endevour. All resources put together for a more cost effecticve approach.


yes, and no. For pure policing tasks, sure. Even for EOD-related tasks, sure. But you're not going to take an RCMP officer on a foot patrol into the desert or jungle.

And there are times, when the delineation between where police can/should be employed, and where military can/should be employed, is going to interfere. For that reason, I maintain that the CF requires it's own Pooch Patrol capability.


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## big bad john (6 May 2006)

"Soldier" magazine, the official magazine of the British Army has a good article on the crosssection of K-9 units in the British Army.  It is on sale in Canada now I see.  It is worth a read.  The copies on sale in Canada are generally 2 to 3 months behind the subscriptions and the UK releases.


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## big bad john (15 May 2006)

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/PeopleInDefence/FourYearOldKeriaHelpsToMakeIraqSecure.htm

Four year old Keria helps to make Iraq secure
15 May 06 
Keria, a four-year old Springer Spaniel, and her handler, Lance Coproral Yvonne Watson, are working hard finding illegal weapons of war in an effort to reduce the tensions that are present in Iraq.


Springer Spaniel Keria, and her handler, Lance Corporal Yvonne Watson, are working hard finding illegal weapons of war in Iraq. 
[Picture: Cpl John Hawkes] 
Keria was rescued from abuse to start a new life in the Army as an Arms Explosives Search Dog or 'sniffer' dog. Yvonne (30) is a Dog Handler in the Royal Army Veterinary Corps. They are both on their second tour of operational duty.

A victim of mistreatment by children, Keria is still apprehensive in the presence of young people, but is an excellent search dog. They have both served a tour of duty in Afghanistan before coming to Iraq.

Called out whenever there is a suspicion that arms and explosives may be hidden, the duo deploy by helicopter, armoured personnel carrier or Land Rover to where they are needed. It is hot and difficult work, temperatures are already reaching 50 degrees Celsius in early May and summer has still to fully arrive.

Yvonne and Keria trained together at the Defence Animal Centre in Melton Mowbray and have been working as a team for two years now. Yvonne said:

"She is a lovely dog. I really think that we are making a difference out here to the local people. They are trying to get their lives together and I would like to think that we are helping. We have been very happy working together. I have applied to keep her after she has retired which is in another four years."

The dogs are housed in air conditioned kennels and even have their own swimming pool. They will move to Cyprus at the end of their tour of duty in Iraq.

Yvonne joined the Army three years ago after the downturn in the dairy farming industry. Her parents still live in Monikie, Dundee


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## K_Johnston (15 May 2006)

I think this should be an MP trade.  It should be a gradual start, but once we have a few units, you could send them where they are needed most, and rotate them out like everyone else.  In my opinion the dog and trainer should NEVER be seperated.  The dog and handler adjust to eachother, just as much as a small team (like a two man sniper team) adjust to eachother.  Not just tactics, but personality.  If you keep the trainer and dog together, then they dont have to adjust to new partners, and can jump right in at full effectiveness.  Also, if the need ever arrises, you could attach a dog team to a regular infantry unit for a short time.

Training shouldnt be that hard.  To get a unit together, we already have the facilities in place with many police forces.  You could send the dog and army handler to do training at a civilian police agency (maybe even have a few people take a trainer's course) and suddenly you now have the capability.

Coming to the medical.....well a lot of people are taking vet medicine, because there is a need for that right now.  Once they start getting into the work force, the available jobs will decrease.  Im sure if you allowed them to apply to the army, they would.  Im also pretty sure that a field medic could do anything that possibly could be done in the field.  You dont need a vet to stop bleeding.  The medics, in most cases, could bandage and probably stabilize a dog until it could get to the vets.

Basically for all aspects (training, structure, and med aspects), you can use civil guidelines already in place, and reduce costs to training by making an arrangement with the OPP or RCMP to send army teams in for training.


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## paracowboy (15 May 2006)

K_Johnston said:
			
		

> I think this should be an MP trade.


then you limit them right off the bat. It should be copied directly off the British model, which spreads the knowledge across the entire military.


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## GO!!! (16 May 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> then you limit them right off the bat. It should be copied directly off the British model, which spreads the knowledge across the entire military.



I agree.

The major uses for a military K9 unit do not require a police officer. A dog used for mine/uxo/eod purposes would be best employed in the hands of an engineer, one used for patrol/tracking/riot control by an infanteer, one specially trained in Search and Rescue by a SAR tech and so forth. 

Allowing military K9 units to fall under the LE umbrella would guarantee that they would not be used to their full potential as they would be immediately limited to LE activities, in the hands of MPs.


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## geo (16 May 2006)

A guard dog is not necessarily the best trained to sniff explosives.
A sniffer dog doesn't have to be mean and nasty.....

And MP dog handlers would prolly have a nasty disposition to boot


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## K_Johnston (16 May 2006)

Ok, I can see the points being made.  In that case then, use them in many arms, but my main point is keep the dog and trainer together.  I believe it would be more effective.  You could have SAR dogs, snifer dogs, guard dogs, infantry patrol dogs and others.  But to start a program where none exists, it may be easier to start with MP dogs, and then once there is an initial force, start branching out.


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## paracowboy (16 May 2006)

K_Johnston said:
			
		

> Ok, I can see the points being made.  In that case then, use them in many arms, but my main point is keep the dog and trainer together.


doesn't work. Too often, the medical/customs requirements means a dog is quarantined for months. Sometimes, a dog can't re-enter a country once it's left. What happens should the dog or handler dies, and the other remains?



> But to start a program where none exists, it may be easier to start with MP dogs, and then once there is an initial force, start branching out.


too easy to have empire-building. Once a capability is handed to someone, they find ways to ensure that they, and they alone, keep it. MPs, Medics spring to mind, immediately.

The Brits have a viable, working system in place. It has been adapted to meet the many and vaired changing demands of modern warfare. Why re-invent the wheel? Just copy it.


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## geo (16 May 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> too easy to have empire-building. Once a capability is handed to someone, they find ways to ensure that they, and they alone, keep it. MPs, Medics spring to mind, immediately.


Empire building....... cheezzz..... always wondered why it wasn't the Army that controlled the school for bomb disposal and IEDs


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## K_Johnston (16 May 2006)

Empire building doesnt always happen when there is a better team to do it, or a better use.  And Im not saying take away all dogs from MP's, just put the dogs where they are needed.  MP's and infantry can have seperate dog units.  My example for this would be the RMP SERT team, or similar MP teams.  JTF took over that pretty quickly.
Also when they tried to have MP's doing intel work.  They found out that the jobs could be done better, so it was handed to seperate people.

Although Im probably just being stubborn, because I like the other models better.  I would hate to leave my dog, my partner behind.  And I also dont believe in sharing them........
Meh, ignore me.  Im stubborn and wont change my view.


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## paracowboy (16 May 2006)

K_Johnston said:
			
		

> Empire building doesnt always happen when there is a better team to do it, or a better use.  And Im not saying take away all dogs from MP's, just put the dogs where they are needed.  MP's and infantry can have seperate dog units.  My example for this would be the RMP SERT team, or similar MP teams.  JTF took over that pretty quickly.
> Also when they tried to have MP's doing intel work.  They found out that the jobs could be done better, so it was handed to seperate people.
> 
> Although Im probably just being stubborn, because I like the other models better.  I would hate to leave my dog, my partner behind.  And I also dont believe in sharing them........
> Meh, ignore me.  Im stubborn and wont change my view.


you have completely lost me.

I thought you wanted all dogs under MP control, now you're saying you wnat to take them away? And R(C?)MP SERT? What relationship does that have to do with MPs? And where do MPs and JTF2 meet? 

What, exactly, is your military experience again?


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## FastEddy (17 May 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> A guard dog is not necessarily the best trained to sniff explosives.
> A sniffer dog doesn't have to be mean and nasty.....
> 
> And MP dog handlers would prolly have a nasty disposition to boot




If that were the case their nasty disposition would be from, more than likely from the A..holes and Scum they have to deal with or suffer.


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## Redneck052 (17 May 2006)

Having K9 units is a great concept for the CF.  However their use is not just norrowed to the MPs.  Yes the MPs could use K9s for their duties rather then relying on the RCMP for manhunts, bombsniffing, drugs, etc.

But other units could use K9 sections:

Inf/ Eng- for check points, bomb/ explosvive sniffing, land mines, urban patrols, urban assaults/mop-ups, etc

A dog is a great control factor in crowd/ people escort.  It is less threatening then a weapon, but more fearful of what it could do if it was "let loose", it also looks better on TV.

The down side with K9, is the "life commitment of the member resposnible for his K9 partner".  The dog is not transferable to others, it is with one member for its life span.

Refer to the RCMP K9 training, or other Police K9 training sites.  It take up to 4 years for a dog to be ready for the streets, but then again, who give a fuck if "Fang" takes a chunk out of Bin Laden's ass.


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## paracowboy (17 May 2006)

Redneck052 said:
			
		

> Having K9 units is a great concept for the CF.  However their use is not just norrowed to the MPs.  Yes the MPs could use K9s for their duties rather then relying on the RCMP for manhunts, bombsniffing, drugs, etc.
> 
> But other units could use K9 sections:
> 
> ...


This was all addressed. Did you actually read the thread?



> The down side with K9, is the "life commitment of the member resposnible for his K9 partner".  The dog is not transferable to others, it is with one member for its life span.


you didn't, did you?



> Refer to the RCMP K9 training, or other Police K9 training sites.  It take up to 4 years for a dog to be ready for the streets,


nope, you didn't.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (17 May 2006)

When I was in Petawawa in the early nineties the MPs had a dog for drug sniffing. Do the MPs still use dogs for this?
I think they would make great addtion to the Forces. There are so many uses for them from bomb sniffing to drug enforcement (a real concern in our modern world).
When I was in Scotland in 2002 the RAF police were using them for security patrols around the fence perimeters as well.


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## K_Johnston (17 May 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> you have completely lost me.
> 
> I thought you wanted all dogs under MP control, now you're saying you wnat to take them away? And R(C?)MP SERT? What relationship does that have to do with MPs? And where do MPs and JTF2 meet?
> 
> What, exactly, is your military experience again?



It made a lot more sense in my mind then it did typed out.   I was trying to use examples of where one job was firmly under control of one unit, but handed to another when it was discovered things could be done with more effect.  As in instead of the original unit keeping a hold on that job and build an empire, it has branched out of been handed to someone else.
I was trying to use it as an example of how you could initially begin the dog program with MP's, but then expand to have dogs everywhere they may be needed.  I dont mean all dogs should be under the MP's, I realize now it doesnt make sense.  But I am saying it would be a good place to start.

Sorry if it isn't clear still exactly what Im tring to say.  I often get told to pipe down unless I can make others understand it clearly.


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## big bad john (22 May 2006)

I read this article in today's Stars and Stripes and I thought that it might be of some interest.

http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?article=37398&section=104

Miesau kennel reopened to house military working dogs 


By Steve Mraz, Stars and Stripes
European edition, Tuesday, May 23, 2006



Steve Mraz / S&S 
Rio, a 7-year-old German Shepard, chases down Staff Sgt. Darren Smith with the 529th Military Police Company on Friday after the ribbon-cutting ceremony for a new kennel at Miesau Army Ammo Depot. The scenario was a demonstration of a felony traffic stop while using a canine.


Steve Mraz / S&S 
Rio, a 7-year-old German shepard, holds down Staff Sgt. Darren Smith with the 529th Military Police Company on Friday after the ribbon-cutting ceremony for a new kennel at Miesau Army Ammo Depot. 


MIESAU, Germany — A dog kennel at Miesau Army Depot has received a new lease on life thanks to the war on terror.

Military working dog teams will be able to use the facility, which is capable of housing 60 dogs, during their transits to and from locations downrange. And in addition to housing working dog teams in transit, the facility also will support the Kaiserslautern Military Community.

A ribbon-cutting took place Friday morning to celebrate the The newly refurbished facility, which is on the western edge of the Kaiserslautern Military Community and just minutes away from Ramstein Air Base.

“Recently with the global war on terrorism, we’re looking at huge numbers of dogs we have to transit through this community,” said Sgt. 1st Class Kenneth S. Throckmorton, military working dog program manager with the Headquarters U.S. Army Europe Office of the Provost Marshal. “Every time we move dogs through here we’re not talking five or 10. In some cases, we’re talking 30, 40 dogs because no longer is the (military police) corps the unique provider of military working dogs. You have engineers, Special Forces, infantry and so on.”

Years ago, the Miesau kennel housed sentry dogs that patrolled the installation when sensitive items were stored there. For 20 years, it was the largest kennel in the Army, but the kennel closed as Miesau stopped housing the important equipment.

As a result of needed support for the downrange mission and the prospective “end state” of U.S. Army bases in Europe, a decision was made to revive the Miesau kennels, Throckmorton said.

Now, the Miesau kennel is the premier military working dog facility in Europe, said Col. Jack McClanahan, U.S. Army Europe provost marshal.

“A lot of people kind of grin whenever they say, ‘Ah, it’s just a working dog facility,’” McClanahan said. “Well, ask the warfighters, community commanders and senior mission commanders if they can do without their working dogs. Let me just tell you. I’ve gotten three-star (general) phone calls about shortages of one working dog, one explosives dog in a far-off place before that I had to scramble and pull together. I guarantee you, people care.”

Given the importance of combating hidden explosives and roadside bombs, military working dog teams are some of the most deployed, most in demand and dependable force protection tool available.

“They are absolutely essential,” McClanahan said.

The highlight of Friday’s ceremony was a demonstration of a felony traffic stop involving a military working dog. Staff Sgt. Darren Smith with the 529th Military Police Company put on a protective jacket before attempting to outrun Staff Sgt. Clayton Glover, also with the 529th MP Company, and Rio, a 7-year-old military working dog. Smith did not make it far before Rio, a German shepherd, bit his left arm and pulled him to the ground while Glover slapped a pair of handcuffs on Smith.


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## Cloud Cover (25 May 2006)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> When I was in Scotland in 2002 the RAF police were using them for security patrols around the fence perimeters as well.



The sheep are probably angry.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (26 May 2006)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> The sheep are probably angry.



Gotta keep them away from the Air Force! uh because of FOD...yeah that's it.....


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## big bad john (7 Jul 2006)

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/PeopleInDefence/TheyveAllGoneBarkingInBallykelly.htm

homedefence for...about defencedefence newsA - Z indexcontact ushelpSearch Term:

Search Scope:
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They've all gone barking in Ballykelly
6 Jul 06 
A Canine Biathlon for the Army Dog Unit in Northern Ireland is never going to be your average dog day out.


Getting down to it; one of the competitors gets a little bit wet as she gets through the river with her dog. 
[Picture: Sgt Will Craig RLC] 
Forget about pampered pedigrees and parading pooches, the Best in Show at Shackleton Barracks, Ballykelly exhibits gruelling physical ability, mental agility, military skill and an intense bond between handler and dog.

The 18th Canine Biathlon for the Army Dog Unit in Northern Ireland saw 60 service dogs and their handlers completing an incredibly demanding four and a half mile course which involved explosions, water, darkness and shooting! Doesn't really sound like Crufts does it!

Major Matt Sheriff, who took part in the competition said the course took about an hour to complete. "A desperate hour," he says. 

"It was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. You want to gasp for breath, but you can't."

There were lots of ‘stands' along the course, involving the handlers having to strip and assemble their weapons, do press-ups, throw grenades and carry their dogs on a narrow walk way.

Major Sheriff continued:

"It was a fun event, but was also designed to the test the bond between man and dog. It was often tested to the limits. The hardest activity for me was going down a dark tunnel with water in, and shoving my dog Jess down too. It was absolutely demanding!"


Up, up and away; Private Mark Sadler Royal Irish goes over one of the obstacles. [Picture: Sgt Will Craig RLC] 
[Picture: Sgt Will Craig RLC] 
The competition lasted all day and was won by Lance Corporal Goodall from Ballykelly, and his dog Odie. The day was sponsored by dog food provider Eukanuba, who according to Major Sheriff "Did us proud." The prizes were presented by the Director of the Royal Army Veterinary Corps, Brigadier Andrew Warde. 

The Army Dog Unit Northern Ireland has provided trained dog teams and veterinary expertise throughout the province since 1973 with currently 132 dogs in the province and 100 handlers, supporting the army.

A unique military unit, it is made up of Royal Army Veterinary Corps Dog Handlers and volunteers from other Regiments and Corps. As part of the Northern Ireland normalisation process the Unit is relocating to North Luffenham next year so although some dogs will remain in the province, this was the last Canine Biathlon for the unit. 

Major Sherriff will be in London next week for the opening of the Animals' War Exhibition at the Imperial War Museum. Opening on July 14, the exhibition will tell the story of  animals as diverse as dogs, elephants, dolphins and rats, caught up in twentieth century conflicts. 

The last Canine Biathlon in Ballykelly celebbrated 33 years of continous sevice by the Unit. and was enjoyed by all who particpaited. Including the dogs. 

Major Sheriff added:

"There were a few humans who were suffering from stiffness the next day but no dog injuries. And you could tell by the dogs faces they had a great time."

Despite asking, we were unfortunately unable to get a quote from Odie, the winning dog.


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## big bad john (25 Jul 2006)

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/OneManAndHisSearchDog.htm

One man and his search dog
25 Jul 06 
Anyone who reads a newspaper or watches television is more than aware of the UK's involvement in Southern Afghanistan and the 3,000 plus British troops that are deployed there. But not many are aware of the military working dogs that are doing their bit to restore peace and security in Afghanistan.


Lance Corporal Bates and Jamie 
[Picture: Cpl Mike Fletcher RLC] 
By the end of July 2006, both search and patrol dogs will be deployed in Afghanistan and will be providing vital canine assistance to the security efforts. At the British base in Lashkar Gah, Lance Corporal Charlie Bates, aged 24 from Birstall in west Yorkshire, and his Vehicle Search (VS) dog, Jamie, aged 7 in human years, are just one team which daily put themselves on the frontline in order to assist security. 
Lance Corporal Bates (Royal Army Veterinary Corps) and Jamie provide an invaluable service by searching vehicles which wish to enter the base for arms and explosives. In total, Lance Corporal Bates has had nearly a year's worth of training courses to get to his current level as a class one dog trainer. He has now completed five years of service and been to Iraq, USA and Canada. 

Military dogs and handlers are trained at the Defence Animal Centre (DAC) in Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire. Dog handlers are taught all aspects of animal husbandry, including dog first aid, as well as more specialist subjects. When asked about his job as military dog trainer, Lance Corporal Bates said:

"It's the best job in the world, I'm getting paid to work with dogs. It's a very rewarding job especially if it leads to something that could save lives."


Lance Corporal Charlie Bates and Jamie search a truck upon entering the base at Lashkar Gah 
[Picture: Cpl Mike Fletcher RLC] 
As for his current tour in Afghanistan, he said: 
"Afghanistan is very similar to Iraq, especially the heat, but my training prior to deployment has more than prepared me and my dog for the task ahead. It has been very enjoyable and the feed back from the locals has been very positive."

Jamie's initial training as a VS dog takes approximately 16 weeks before he posted to his first operational unit. Search dog Jamie has been in Afghanistan for six months now and will return to Sennelager towards the end of 2006. Jamie has also deployed to Northern Ireland and Kosovo carrying out vital search duties. As with most of the search dogs, Jamie came from a rescue centre.

Normally based at 102 Military Working Dog Support Unit, in Sennelager, Germany, Lance Corporal Bates is one of approximately 30 dog handlers at the unit. The unit has a wide variety of military working dogs which include protection, arms and explosive search and vehicle search dogs. 

The Secretary of State for Defence, John Reid, announced in January a UK Task Force of 3,300 British troops would be deploying to Helmand Province in Southern Afghanistan as part of the NATO International Security Assistance Force, (ISAF).


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## 3rd Herd (4 Aug 2006)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Whereas they are able to detect a Explosive Substance (thus; a concealed bomb or device) they would be useless in the detection of Pressure Plates and Trip Wires and other Detonating Devices. Therefore making them useless in mine clearing and for Patrol Units, other than being used to trip those devices, that IMO would certainly be cruel and inhumane.
> 
> Cheers.



There has been over the last fifteen years or so considerable use in the use of dogs for mine and IED particularly in the field of humanitarian mine clearing. As a matter of fact dogs were used prior to Princess Dianh's well publicized walk through minded areas in I believe Angola/Namibia. Demining dogs are certified by the United Nations as being able to achieve the 96% clearance standard(I may be a little off but this is pretty close). Up until 2002 there has not been one death of a dog during actual work. The only instance I can find of dog(s) deaths was in Mozambique in 2001 in which the vehicle carrying the dogs and handlers was deliberately targetted. The cost of training a demining dog was approximately 15,500 Can. in 2002 and was done by an outfit here just outside Calgary. It took about 18 months to train each dog and handler. I have several photos of dogs in action in Africa, Asia and Afghanistan in the late 90's. We also kicked around the idea of having students/ schools/ school districts fund raise to pay for the training of a dog(s) and then be given naming rights. Unfortunately, there was not too much interest from NDHQ.
cheers


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## 3rd Herd (10 Aug 2006)

Source:http://www.landminedogs.com/


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## Poppa (10 Aug 2006)

Something on this crossed my desk a while back on the Proof of Concept. Seems it's not dead...it just moves as fast as I run  ;D
I'll see if I can dig it up.


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