# Financial Advisors??



## super stoker (1 Oct 2009)

Hey all, I'm looking to become a "responsible adult" and start saving my money, investing, buying a house, etc etc but it's all pretty overwhelming especially in these economic times!  Does anyone know a good advisor in the GTA?


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## Occam (1 Oct 2009)

If you're serving (Reg or Res F), why not SISIP?

http://sisip.ca/

They don't have an office in Toronto, but I don't see why all that stuff can't be conducted over the phone.


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## oldmtler (1 Oct 2009)

PLEASE be careful and checkout any adviser thoroughly.  My wife and I are currently dealing with a situation because we didnot do enough due diligent on hiring our financial adviser, a Mr Earl Jones of Pointe Claire QC.
Make sure that they are a registered financial adviser.  Get their registration number and check them out with your provincial regulator.  Be very careful in what they invest your money in and make sure that you are covered in case they commit fraud with the investment instrument your in.  Never give them control over your money.  Always retain signature rights before any money is moved or a cheque is written.
Rule one to quote Elmer Fudd is to be "very, very careful".


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## Redeye (1 Oct 2009)

Well, me, for one.

To be serious, start at your bank.  If you are just getting going in planning for your financial future, that is the idea place to start.  As an advantage, you will not be dealing with people on commission who are planning their retirement instead of yours.  There are too many people I have seen who have dealt with horror shows, being taken advantage of because of their lack of knowledge.

If your goal is to buy a home soon, open an RRSP and start socking away as much money as you can.  You'll save on income tax and then can use the Home Buyers Plan to withdraw the money tax free for your first home purchase.





			
				super stoker said:
			
		

> Hey all, I'm looking to become a "responsible adult" and start saving my money, investing, buying a house, etc etc but it's all pretty overwhelming especially in these economic times!  Does anyone know a good advisor in the GTA?


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## gunshy (1 Oct 2009)

Does the Forces (Reg or Res F) not have some sort of Employee Assistance Program that you can speak to an Advisor covered under benefits?

My biggest peace of advice to you... never let anyone spend your money! Always get advance from your own bank or someone qualified that has no access or vested interest in your money.

Good Luck!
gunshy


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## Occam (1 Oct 2009)

gunshy said:
			
		

> Does the Forces (Reg or Res F) not have some sort of Employee Assistance Program that you can speak to an Advisor covered under benefits?



Yes, they're called SISIP (link in my previous post).  Financial planners are on salary and not commission, and the management fees are the lowest in the business, from what I'm told.


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## Redeye (2 Oct 2009)

I'm interested to see what sort of products they can offer on the investment side.  I know they run group RRSPs through Great West Life, but don't know what they offer for investment options, or what restrictions there are on the plans.  I'll try to get some info on it to see what I find out.

With some limited exceptions, the folks at your bank are not on commission, and if you decide, for example, that mutual funds are the ideal vehicle to start investing (which is commonly the case), there is the added advantage that bank-run funds tend to have low MERs, no loads, and in a couple of cases, they perform better.



			
				Occam said:
			
		

> Yes, they're called SISIP (link in my previous post).  Financial planners are on salary and not commission, and the management fees are the lowest in the business, from what I'm told.


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## dapaterson (2 Oct 2009)

This is pretty random stream of thought.  I've been managing my own investments for the past 20 years or so - started putting aside into RRSPs / Mutual Funds / Stocks  when I was 19.  I've done good and bad; here are my thoughts.


Low MERs are important - that's why I used to go for index funds, and now am in index ETFs.  Index funds mirror the market - you pay the MER to the bank/investment co to manage your money.  With very few exceptions, most money managers cost you money compared to index funds.  Thus, high MERs = the bank gets rich, even if you don't.

But to start out:
If you have a regular income flow, I'd recommend pre-authorised debits to your investment acount.  Probably, if you're starting out, to RRSPs, in a single mutual fund.  Hold everything in your own name - the majority of advisors are honest, but if you find the one bad one in the bunch, you're in trouble.

So, automatic transfers.  To start out, go with a generic balanced mutual fund.  A mutual fund, by its nature, gives you some diversity.  Don't get obsessive about spreading out investments at the beginning - frankly, until you're over 30K, the additional costs of multiple investments almost cancel out the benefits.  It also gives you too much information to process for too little a return

Don't panic.  Things go up, things go down - over time, you'll learn more and rebalance (bonds vs stocks, etc) - but if you start saving even $50 per month it adds up fast.  Increase your savings when you get pay increases and it grows even faster.

Request DRIPs for all your investments.  That's "Dividend Reinvestment Plans" - the dividends and payouts from your investments get rolled back into the investments.  

Read up on investing - I like Moneysense magazine for broad topics (not detailed understandings and explanations, though).  They have a "Lazy Man's Investment Portfolio" (or something like that); I'd argue that it's still to involved, but the theory - buy, hold, adjust no more than once a year - is sound.

Everyone on the Internet has an opinion.  Many are shills, promoting their own investments.  Be selective and careful.


Most important recommendatioon for the end: *If you can't understand the investment, don't invest in it.*


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Oct 2009)

To bad I have a friend and ex-army buddy that does our stuff here in Vancouver. He gives us recommandations based on our level of risk. A lot of the advice is around how to use the money you have wisely and on what type of insurance to buy or not.


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## observor 69 (2 Oct 2009)

My thoughts run roughly along the lines of dataperson.
So my advice is open a mutual fund account at either TD or the Royal Bank, the two top banks in Canada. I prefer TD as you can buy "E" index funds online with very low MER. 
Portfolio percentage break down is fixed income  = your age, again I like the TD "e" bond index fund, the rest is in equity.
For equity buy the TD dividend fund and the "e" balanced index fund.
As dataperson said there is the "easy chair" or "couch potato" model described in the Money Sense magazine LINK.
Best piece of advice, read as much as you can on personal investing, or as Warren Buffet has said " If you don't understand it, don't invest in it."


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## Roy Harding (2 Oct 2009)

My advice would be along the same line as most previous posters.

DO NOT use an "individual" as your financial advisor.  Go with an established corporation of some kind - any of the banks is a good start.  Other companies, such as Investor's Group, ING, and the like (I'm not shilling for any of them) are a good start.  SISIP (if you're a serving member) is probably the best deal you'll find.

Find someone (employed by one of the previously mentioned corporations) that you are comfortable dealing with - then check what they're saying, then check it again, then check it again - then set something up.

If you do this right, you can be damned comfortable fairly early.  My wife was smart enough to insist we get involved in real estate and investments early.  This enable me to retire at 43 years of age - start my own corporation, and live comfortably on my CF pension and our investments (we're not rich, but there's little that we want to do that we can't afford), without worrying about how much my corporation is making (damned good thing - so far it hasn't paid for the new shop and tools).

DON'T go with an INDIVIDUAL - the papers are FULL of reports of individuals who ripped their customers off.  Earlier in this thread, Oldmtler mentioned his personal experience with such a fella' - and I'm sure it HURTS.


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## Redeye (3 Oct 2009)

Stay well clear of Investors Group. Extremely expensive funds sold DSC only by commissioned sales reps who are chasing a commission cheque.  Avoid at all costs.

Agree on RBC and TD (I worked at TD for a few years before moving to Royal, and both have great advisors and a good span of of funds.  The TD e series
are great for those who can employ them (ie know how to build a portfolio).  RBC has their D series through RBC Direct Investing which are somewhat similar.  You can't really go wrong with either firm.


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## oldmtler (3 Oct 2009)

I used Mr Earl Jones and we are in a bit of a mess because of him.  But the TD is moving mountains getting us back on track.  I can recommend them too.


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## Cpl4Life (3 Oct 2009)

Whatever you do DO NOT go with SISIP.  They are a-holes; when our daughter passed away we approached SISIP to invest the money and found they did not handle the type of investments we wanted.  We had previously tried using them for financial counselling (advise) and they said there was nothing more they could do for us (we track every penny and we budget).  So the only thing left was to use them for income tax returns.  After learning I went elsewhere to invest my money, the bloody a-holes at SISIP made me sign a letter only days after my daughter died saying I was using no other services besides the income tax service and as a result they were cancelling my services to them (ie they were firing me as a customer).  The a-holes knew where the money was coming from that we were investing too.  I should have never signed that letter, but I was so shocked they were doing that to me stupid me signed it.  But now I realize it was a god send and I would never deal with SISIP ever again; I find their services sub par at best.

Dapaterson is right, watch the MER's and other fees.  A "financial advisor" at a local credit union didn't know what the MER's were on the funds she was selling.... she had to phone the fund administrator to find out.  Apparently we were the first one she has ever dealt with who requested it.  She said most people have no clue there are fees involved when cashing out funds etc.

It doesn't take much, read some books (Canadian of course), read some discussion forums (Canadian business is a great website for research) and become knowledgeable so you don't get suckered in.

I also do not recommend Investors Group - sleeze bags imho.


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## dapaterson (3 Oct 2009)

On more thought.  Advisors who claim to work for "free" are getting commissions on the products they sell you.  One gent I know pointed out that index ETFs don't pay him anything, so he wouldn't recommend them.  Instead, he sells other investments which do pay him an ongoing income stream.  Moral of the story:  Always ask what your advisor gets paid on all your investments.


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## Occam (4 Oct 2009)

Nix said:
			
		

> Whatever you do DO NOT go with SISIP.  They are a-holes; when our daughter passed away we approached SISIP to invest the money and found they did not handle the type of investments we wanted.



What type of investment were you looking for?  We've been investing with them for some time now, and feel pretty confident that they offer the exact same products that the banks and investment brokers offer.


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## super stoker (5 Oct 2009)

Well, following the recommendations of some and against that of others, I am now a client of Investors Group.  I shopped around at SISIP and the banks and nobody I spoke to really seemed all that knowledgeable.  Another member of the forces referred me to his advisor and we had a meeting.  He used to serve full time in the forces, and is still in the Naval Reserve, so he has a good knowledge of the military system.  More importantly, he knows his stuff when it comes to money!  I am very impressed so far.  Thanks to everyone for their input!


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## George Wallace (5 Oct 2009)

super stoker said:
			
		

> Hey all, I'm looking to become a "responsible adult" and start saving my money, investing, buying a house, etc etc but it's all pretty overwhelming especially in these economic times!  Does anyone know a good advisor in the GTA?



Four days.  That was fast.


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## Redeye (5 Oct 2009)

If you are saving for a home purchase and want to make use of those funds, make sure he has not sold you DSC (back end loaded funds) or you cannot get out of them for seven years without paying back his commission to IG.  Their funds are already some of the most expensive in terms of fees in Canada and the DSC thing makes it infinitely worse.  Also, though not all IG people do this - do NOT let him talk you into leveraging (ie, borrowing to invest), I have seen that end very, very badly for a lot of people, and it's done just to make them even more commissions.

A friend of mine who worked at IG use to quip that their motto should be, "We'll take your money and my experience and turn it into my money and your experience."



			
				super stoker said:
			
		

> Well, following the recommendations of some and against that of others, I am now a client of Investors Group.  I shopped around at SISIP and the banks and nobody I spoke to really seemed all that knowledgeable.  Another member of the forces referred me to his advisor and we had a meeting.  He used to serve full time in the forces, and is still in the Naval Reserve, so he has a good knowledge of the military system.  More importantly, he knows his stuff when it comes to money!  I am very impressed so far.  Thanks to everyone for their input!


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## super stoker (5 Oct 2009)

Redeye said:
			
		

> If you are saving for a home purchase and want to make use of those funds, make sure he has not sold you DSC (back end loaded funds) or you cannot get out of them for seven years without paying back his commission to IG.  Their funds are already some of the most expensive in terms of fees in Canada and the DSC thing makes it infinitely worse.  Also, though not all IG people do this - do NOT let him talk you into leveraging (ie, borrowing to invest), I have seen that end very, very badly for a lot of people, and it's done just to make them even more commissions.
> 
> A friend of mine who worked at IG use to quip that their motto should be, "We'll take your money and my experience and turn it into my money and your experience."



LOL, nice quote.  That is good advice.  Some of my money was put into 'back end" but most is in No load because of the house thing.  I am not really sure when that will be happening but I thought it best to leave it available.  The MER's were the main concern for me, but maybe you get what you pay for?


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Oct 2009)

I should add, that my buddy belongs to a major firm and not on his own. What we did find before we used him is that the banks and the credit unions would offer us "advice" that pointed us to their currently promoted products and that the "advisers" were barely trained bank tellers. One of them even advised my wife who is a lawyer to "fudge" my signature on a document that we had neglected to cosign within a stack of other documents.  : 

She gave him quite the lecture on what she could sue him for and charge with.


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## Cpl4Life (8 Oct 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> What type of investment were you looking for?  We've been investing with them for some time now, and feel pretty confident that they offer the exact same products that the banks and investment brokers offer.



And banks and Investment Brokers do not offer every type of investment, it varies per company/bank.

SISIP offers funds, and a limited number of funds at that.  They did not have access to the funds I wanted to invest in (ie specific funds).  I don't believe they offer what the banks offer - GIC's, etc, although I'm not sure on the GIC's since we weren't looking for that specifically.  And they certainly don't offer a broker service or even advice on stocks.

IMO SISIP is for people who are just starting out investing and do not know enough to know what they need to know.  Same for Investors Group.... it makes me sad to think how much money people have wasted going with them.


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## Occam (8 Oct 2009)

Nix said:
			
		

> SISIP offers funds, and a limited number of funds at that.  They did not have access to the funds I wanted to invest in (ie specific funds).  I don't believe they offer what the banks offer - GIC's, etc, although I'm not sure on the GIC's since we weren't looking for that specifically.



They do indeed offer GICs.



> And they certainly don't offer a broker service or even advice on stocks.



I don't know why you'd expect that they would.  If I want an investment, I go to an investment broker.  If I want individual stocks, I go to a stock broker.  Different creatures entirely.



> IMO SISIP is for people who are just starting out investing and do not know enough to know what they need to know.



Actually, I learned quite a bit from the gent at SISIP.  We spent nearly three hours on the initial meeting alone, just figuring out where we are, where we want to be, and how to get there.  You may not have been as lucky with your experience.  Of the service members I know who invest, all of them do it through SISIP.


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## Cpl4Life (8 Oct 2009)

You seem to defend SISIP a little TOO much imo.  You ignore the principal of my initial post, how I was treated by SISIP after my child died, and dwell on defending SISIP about what investments they do and do not offer.  If all you want to do is defend SISIP then you're not going to convince me in the least they aren't anything but crooks.


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## Roy Harding (8 Oct 2009)

Nix said:
			
		

> You seem to defend SISIP a little TOO much imo.  You ignore the principal of my initial post, how I was treated by SISIP after my child died, and dwell on defending SISIP about what investments they do and do not offer.  If all you want to do is defend SISIP then you're not going to convince me in the least they aren't anything but crooks.



Strong words.

I've never dealt with SISIP for investments - but I really don't think they're "crooks".

I had a different experience with Investor's Group than others here - perhaps I was lucky in my representative, I don't know - but although others have had a different experience, no one has taken the line that they're "crooks".

You had an unfortunate experience, and for that you have my sympathy - but to label an entire establishment as "crooks" without substantiation is going too far.

Perhaps it is YOU who is too focused on attacking SISIP, rather than others who are too focused on defending them.

I don't have a dog in this fight - I couldn't care less what company or establishment folks go with, frankly, I couldn't care less whether others invest or not.  Your opinions are yours, and you are entitled to them - but you're skating close to slander.


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## super stoker (8 Oct 2009)

Well it looks like everyone has opinions on this, but I would like to hear more about Investors Group as I just gave them my money, lol.  Someone mentioned that they only offer DSC funds...which is just not true!  Also I think there was some mention of them being only for beginner investors...I am curious why that is(because I am, and I'm with them lol) .  

In terms of product offering, I havn't found one institution that has more under one roof!  I thought they were just mutual funds but they have a "Securities Specialist" who does stocks and bonds, in house mortgages, loans, cheqing accounts, credit cards, Insurance, and some other stuff I forget.  

I am sure Investors or SISIP or whoever have hired bad agents who screw people over, in the end the service won me over.  The advisor at the bank doesn't give a s#@$ if I am happy or not.  At least this way someone has to make me happy or I can cost him money!


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## George Wallace (8 Oct 2009)

super stoker said:
			
		

> I am sure Investors or SISIP or whoever have hired bad agents who screw people over, in the end the service won me over.  The advisor at the bank doesn't give a s#@$ if I am happy or not.  At least this way someone has to make me happy or I can cost him money!



That is about it.  It really doesn't matter what institution or company you deal with, as much as it does the person you have to deal with.  There are good knowledgeable and competent people working for many different companies.  There are many more who do not cut the mustard when it comes to one or all of these characteristics: knowledge, competence, personalty, etc.  The trick is to find one of the good ones, no matter what company, who will make you feel like they have your best interests at heart.


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## Redeye (8 Oct 2009)

It's quite true that the person you wind up dealing with makes all the difference regardless of the firm.

I'm impressed that IG offered no-load funds (I know they have them - but selling them doesn't pay the rep much at all, so there is a power disincentive).  In terms of MERs and performance, their funds by objective measurement are atrociously expensive in many cases, and the performance simply doesn't justify the fees.  Likewise, while I'm familiar with their mortgage business I've never lost mortgage business to them because banks can beat them without a hassle.

The comment I made about beginner investors - IG built its business originally by making mutual funds accessible when they were really not well known - but once one has built up a fair bit of capital over the long term they have doors opened to much better products and services - though it's not uncommon that what happens is their representative leaves IG to move to another firm and takes their good clients with them - or they get courted by someone who can show more value.  IG trains very, very good sales people which is why they are in high demand from other shops, but their product offerings undermine them often.  I have moved millions of dollars from IG to my own book of business but I have only ever lost one client to them.  

Ultimately, there are good and bad folks in every organization.  I repeatedly justify the fact to my boss in my day job that while I don't always have the highest sales numbers, I also get very, very few complaints because I run my business ethically and I don't use the tricks a lot of people use to inflate the business they are doing.





			
				super stoker said:
			
		

> Well it looks like everyone has opinions on this, but I would like to hear more about Investors Group as I just gave them my money, lol.  Someone mentioned that they only offer DSC funds...which is just not true!  Also I think there was some mention of them being only for beginner investors...I am curious why that is(because I am, and I'm with them lol) .
> 
> In terms of product offering, I havn't found one institution that has more under one roof!  I thought they were just mutual funds but they have a "Securities Specialist" who does stocks and bonds, in house mortgages, loans, cheqing accounts, credit cards, Insurance, and some other stuff I forget.
> 
> I am sure Investors or SISIP or whoever have hired bad agents who screw people over, in the end the service won me over.  The advisor at the bank doesn't give a s#@$ if I am happy or not.  At least this way someone has to make me happy or I can cost him money!


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## RandyL (29 Dec 2009)

Howdy, I was a financial advisor a few years ago.  What I can add to this discussion is that load or no load funds, the representative is stilll making a commision. I used to sell back end load funds, the fee to take out your money dropped a percentage every year. I think it was 7% for the first year then dropped 1% over the next seven years eventually turning into a no load fund. If anyone is investing money for RRSP purposes then they shouldn't be concerned with any fees beause you shouldn't be taking your money out within the 7 year period anyway, unless your close to retirement age already and in that case a different investment would be a better option. And if you think that you may need that money in the next few years, then thers other shorter term investments for stuff like that too. 

No one has discussed segregated funds, they offer more protection then a typical mutual fund. For one, all the money in the fund goes directly to your beneficiary, unlike other investments that can get tangled up in your estate/probate costs and such. 

As far as fund performance just remember that if a fund has done really well in the last year or so that the performance is OVER. Your looking at numbers that are in the past and have absolutly no bearing on whats going to happen in the future. If you buy into a fund that is doing really well , then you will end up paying a higher unit price. Your better off buying into a fund that has good long term performance but at the present time may be offering lower returns which means cheaper unit price for you.

Gotta run for now. .


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## Redeye (4 Jan 2010)

From what I've seen, when a commission-based seller is selling "no load", he's actually selling Front-End Load and taking 0% commission.  This can be done by ethical advisors where it makes sense because they'll still be getting income from the trailers paid by the funds over the long term.

Back end load/DSC funds aren't necessarily evil - but the problem is that often the DSC concept isn't well explained.  I have less of an issue when you're dealing with non-proprietary funds - ie if you go see an independent dealer - because chances are the portfolio can be significantly reworked if need be without disturbing the load schedule - most fund companies have large and varied offerings and it's possible to make a lot of changes without triggering loads.

What really grinds my gears that I've seen quite a lot of people do is the practice of churning a portfolio to reset the DSC schedule and payout another commission.  This to me is unethical, because in most every case I've seen it the rep has not explained any of the implications to the investor.

Whenever I get a transfer out request the first questions I ask the client is whether all this stuff has been explained.  I've torn up a lot of T2033 transfer forms going to IG when I enlighten the clients on what they're getting into.

RandyL makes a great point here though - don't chance performance.  Because a fund did well last year doesn't mean it will this year - particularly if it's some sort of sector fund.  Your investments are long term so look at funds that have had solid long term performance.  Be wary of any rep who's trying to sell you the flavour of the month.  I've seen people with portfolios of 15-20 mutual funds - and when I look at the holdings they're all basically the same, and it seems that the logic for the choices come from whatever wholesaler put on the best hospitality.

Seg funds - well - they have some utility, but they're expensive - and generally speaking the guarantee to me isn't really worth the cost if they're going to be a long term holding.  Their main advantage is protection from creditors - so they are applicable for example to business owners more than average investors.  They are also useful in certain applications like UL policies and Guaranteed Variable Annuity type products like Manulife's IncomePlus - but the cost consideration is important.


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