# Two children killed after car nears Canadian convoy



## GAP (28 Jul 2008)

Two children killed after car nears Canadian convoy
Updated Mon. Jul. 28 2008 7:37 AM ET CTV.ca News Staff
Article Link

Two children were killed when Canadian troops opened fire on a car they feared was about to attack their convoy, the Canadian Forces announced Monday. 

The siblings, aged two and four, were killed in Kandahar province late Sunday. 

The driver of the car ignored repeated signals to keep away from the convoy, said the statement. 

The Canadian gunner, apparently fearing a suicide attack, fired after the car came within 10 metres of the convoy. 

"It is with profound sadness that we announce that two Afghan children . . . were killed in this incident," said the statement. 

"We deeply regret this incident, and our thoughts are with the families and friends of the deceased during this difficult time. 

"Our soldiers are trained to take all appropriate steps to minimize civilian casualties. However, they must take action to protect themselves when they believe they are being threatened." 

Sources at the local hospital confirm that a boy and girl were killed and their parents treated for injuries, reports The Canadian Press. 

According to Human Rights Watch, at least 300 Afghan civilians have been mistakenly killed by coalition forces in 2007 -- with thousands killed since 2001. 

Militants often use civilian cars loaded with explosives to target coalition convoys. 

Afghan police and coalition forces will conduct a joint investigation into the incident. 
More on link


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## Snafu-Bar (28 Jul 2008)

This is the second incidient involving people not heeding the move away orders, is it just me or is something not being properly communicated to the civilians in regards to stop or i'll have to shoot.?

  :-\


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## The Bread Guy (28 Jul 2008)

ISAF statement

*ISAF escalation of force incident, two civilians dead and one other wounded*
ISAF news release PR# 2008-350, 28 Jul 08

KABUL, Afghanistan - ISAF soldiers opened fire on a vehicle being driven in a threatening manner and ignoring warnings, killing two child occupants and wounding one adult on July 27 at approximately 7:30 p.m.

The incident occurred in Kandahar Province. ISAF was conducting a security patrol when they were approached by a vehicle. The vehicle was directed to keep its distance but it did not comply. ISAF soldiers gave hand, arm and audio signals as well as flashing light signals to stop. When the vehicle was 10 metres away and still approaching rapidly, the ISAF soldiers, fearing an attack, fired on it.

The injured civilians were treated by ISAF medical personnel at the scene. An adult male, who had suffered serious wounds, was taken by ANP to Mirwais Hospital for further checks.

Our soldiers are trained to take the appropriate steps to minimize civilian casualties. However, they must take action to protect themselves when threatened. Tragic incidents such as this are avoidable if the public comply with the instructions of those who are endeavouring to provide a safe environment.

ISAF runs frequent public service announcements and advertising campaigns aimed at keeping the local population informed about the need to maintain a safe distance from ISAF convoys as they travel throughout the region.

ISAF deeply regrets the outcome of this incident which will be fully investigated.


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## gaspasser (28 Jul 2008)

As much as my thoguhts are with the family after this incident, and I mourn the loss of two children:
The soldier part of me says good on the lads for doing everything possible to avoid a bad confrontation because the driver was given ample warning; and bad on the father/driver for putting his family in harms way.  
Do I feel overly sad at this point, "Jimmy crack corn......"


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## xena (28 Jul 2008)

Absolutely, BYT Driver, I mourn too the loss of such young lives.

But, those in theatre know all too often that vehicles with civilians _including children _ are used for car bomb attacks.  Even if certain vehicles aren't loaded with explosives, they (Taleban and Al Qaeda) use these vehicles to probe our defenses and see where the weak spots are.  If the vehicle in question does not actually have a bomb, it is highly probable to be a prelude to a real attack.  By the way, all the locals are exceedingly well aware to stay away from the convoys.  "Gee, I didn't know" doesn't fly.

As loathe as I am to refer to an American TV show, I believe the one of the episodes of "Over There", although set in Iraq, had an episode dealing with the deceptive and probing tactics used by car bombers.  It is not an easy episode to watch, I'll warn you though.

What would have to go through your head to drive towards an armed military convoy, knowing full well that you should stay away from them, repeatedly being warned to stay away, with _kids_ in your car?

May God give rest to those children where the light of His countenance shines...


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## JABAC (28 Jul 2008)

I heard this story on the radio on my way to work this morning.  Although I hate hearing of civilians killed in Afghanistan, I have to say it infuriated me how the story was reported.  It made the soldiers seem like they were careless and in the wrong for firing.  One report even suggested that unless the killing of civilians is stopped, people will begin to stand up against the foreigners and unleash a jihad. 
http://www.660news.com/news/international/article.jsp?content=w072865A
 How blatantly ignorant to suggest that we will bring a “holy war” upon ourselves for trying to help another nation establish independence and a credible government.  We still need to understand that we are in a war.  Can you imagine the backlash that would have occurred if there were a bomb in the vehicle and the soldier failed to fire?  It appalls me how the media tries to manipulate people into viewing a situation a certain way…so that they will speak out against the war, without even understanding what’s really going on.  My heart and support goes out to the soldier who fired on the car.  Try to imagine what he must be going through now, especially with all the negative media attention.  We must show our soldiers that we support them despite whatever happens.


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## vonGarvin (28 Jul 2008)

JABAC said:
			
		

> One report even suggested that unless the killing of civilians is stopped, people will begin to stand up against the foreigners and unleash a jihad.



This is not as far off as you may think.  "They" know this (and by "they" I mean the insurgents) and they have shown in the past that they know this.  They use civilians as shields, hoping that some get killed, and then "they" can spin the results into a NATO massacre.  Just as we do when "they" kill civilians.


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## xena (28 Jul 2008)

Exactly my point.  This was undoubtedly a probe for a subsequent attack.  They look for spots where soldiers don't follow their ROE's strictly, or hesitate.  That soldier who opened fire probably saved a lot of coalition, and Canadian, lives.

I'd like to see a reporter look at it from that angle.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2008)

xena said:
			
		

> Exactly my point.  *This was undoubtedly a probe for a subsequent attack. *  They look for spots where soldiers don't follow their ROE's strictly, or hesitate.  That soldier who opened fire probably saved a lot of coalition, and Canadian, lives.
> 
> I'd like to see a reporter look at it from that angle.



Let's not be starting rumours on conjecture, before the investigation even gets past the email stage. You have no such information at this time, and it serves no purpose to second guess and armchair quarterback.


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## Kilo_302 (28 Jul 2008)

> This was undoubtedly a probe for a subsequent attack.



Isn't that a bit speculative?


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## xena (28 Jul 2008)

You're both right.  Complete speculation on my part.  My apologies to all.  

Would it be more accurate to say that it _fits the profile  _ of a probe against our defenses?  If so, I'd say the soldier who opened fire was probably justified (my personal opinion of course, which would obviously not influence any investigation).

I just find that I want to support the soldier involved, _and_ mourn the loss of two innocent kids at the same time.  Emotionally, it's easier to allocate blame on our enemies, who have a history of using human shields and deceptive strategies; but all the facts are not in, so I have to just feel the way I do until more info is available.

Again, my apologies for speculation.  

- Edited to make the text colours more readable.


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## medic65726 (28 Jul 2008)

I feel sorry for the poor soilder who pulled the trigger. Absolutely the right decision to make at the time, just a very unfortunate outcome. And the loss of the two children is indeed a tragedy. I just hope we do not end up with a politically motivated investigation into this. I recall a similar incident in Northern Ireland that ended up in murder charges for the poor Para who tried to defend himself. He ended up with a murder conviction although it was eventually overturned. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Clegg
Never mind having to live with the outcome of the decision, but to be prosecuted as well.
An unfortunate situation but if the car had just pulled over when signalled to....................................


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## meni0n (28 Jul 2008)

There's a huge sign on the back of the truck that says to stay away. People over there just driver carelessly.


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## gaspasser (28 Jul 2008)

Sorry to link from another thread, but the CBC {yeah!what a wonderful unbiased news network} just captioned "Soldiers Kill Children" on the noonday news.  Why couldn't they say "Soldiers avert Death"  Or "Soldier fires on possible Threat" OR "Soldier Does His Job"
 aaaarrrgh  Sorry.


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## darmil (28 Jul 2008)

I agree there are signs on the back of our vehicles. lately we cut off the top part which has the warning in pashtu.So the sign just has the vehicle and the hand outreach due to the fact that well over 70% are illiterate.Vehicles over here are constantly getting close especially in KC.


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## midget-boyd91 (28 Jul 2008)

Why in God's name do news pages have to let users post comments? I mean reading these makes blood boil. Are people really this stupid and heartless?
Take a look at this from the comments on the 'Canadian's Kill Two Kids' page.



> JuneMurray wrote: “My neighbor and friend Glen Arnold was killed in 2006 by a suicide bomber on a bicycle while he was handing out gifts and candy to children in Kandahar.”
> 
> "Captain Canada" says:
> Why are active duty officers with guns handing candy to children?
> ...



Insulting a Canadian soldier killed is just about as low as low can get. 

Midget


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jul 2008)

uncle-midget-boyd said:
			
		

> Why in God's name do news pages have to let users post comments? I mean reading these makes blood boil. Are people really this stupid and heartless?
> Take a look at this from the comments on the 'Canadian's Kill Two Kids' page.
> 
> Insulting a Canadian soldier killed is just about as low as low can get.
> ...


Even _'ignorant civvies'_ are entitled to their opinion, no matter how disgusting and ill thought out.

Others serve with quiet professionalism, and some pay the ultimate sacrifice, to ensure that right.


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## 1feral1 (28 Jul 2008)

Good morning to all members and guests.

ROE's are there for a purpose, to save lives.

Firstly, I have been in many convoys in the 'badlands' of Baghdad city and surrounding province, in LAVs in the shooter/operator role, I have been in some tight spots, and I personally know the stress and constant state of alertness one must endure outside the wire. On too many occasions too numerous to mention I have had my rifle directly pointed at people of all ages (safety catch  OFF), from kids to the elderly. So, I reckon that gives me the right to express an opinion on such a sensitive issue.

Who's fault WRT this incident?

IMHO, at the end of the day, if the driver would have OBEYED the basics, everyone would be happy and those kids would be alive.

If the vehicle was allowed to overtake the convoy and cooked off, well, its our boys who would have been killed, and most likely more than two.

Today, my sympthies and thoughts do not go out to the driver or family, but to the soldiers (and their families) who must endure making a snap decision to protect themselves and others they were assigned to protect. As soldiers and men, we must live with our decisions, and this soldier can hold his head high, as he had done the correct thing. He stopped a potential direct threat to himself and others. Unfortunatly, two people were killed, but that is out of his control, the blame falls on the driver of the car.

This incident demonstrates the stress and instant decisions which our Forces are under all the time. Although the outcome was unfortunate, it is the reality of war.

I do hope the media does not overplay this incident.

If the local general public will not obey simple hand signals and disregard signage placed for their protection (and ours), they have only themselves to blame for their impatience or stupidity. Its not as if we got there last week. The locals know the drill.

Comments like the one quoted above WRT Glen Arnold, literally almost make me VOMIT, and 'Captain Canada' has done nothing but demonstrate his sheer ignorance, arrogance and stupidity to the reality of being deployed in a hostile envorinment. That bit about active duty 'officers' with guns/children nearly sat me on my arse!

Regards from the coldest winter day so far,

OWDU.


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## medaid (28 Jul 2008)

I mourn for the children, and I hope the soldier who had engaged the suspect vehicle is getting the help he/she needs at the moment, and receive continual support here on. It's never easy to kill, and it's not easy to have known that you had killed children.


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## The Bread Guy (28 Jul 2008)

Latest (highlights mine), shared with the usual disclaimer....

*Canadian army 'regrets' killing 2 Afghan children when car approached convoy*
Alexander Panetta, The Canadian Press, 28 Jul 08
Article link

Canadian troops have killed a two-year-old boy and his four-year-old sister by opening fire on a car that they feared was about to attack their convoy in Afghanistan.

*Soldiers said that as the car sped toward them in Panjwaii district outside Kandahar city, they flashed the lights on their vehicles, made hand gestures and issued audio warnings for it to pull over.

The car came within 10 metres of the convoy.

The crew in a light armoured vehicle faced a life-or-death choice and had very little time to make it: fire at the car or risk being blown up by a suicide bomber.*

The gunner pulled the trigger.

The 25-millimetre cannon round tore through the little girl's skull and left a gaping wound in her younger brother's torso, said a doctor and two others who saw their bodies at the local hospital.

The children's mother frantically paced the hallways at the hospital, shrieking and cursing foreign soldiers between sobs.

One police officer at the hospital said he saw and heard the mother scream: "My innocent children have been killed by foreigners - for no reason!"

The father was also a passenger in the vehicle. He was being treated for lacerations but left the Kandahar city hospital without permission to attend his children's funeral.

Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"They must stop this," said Mohammed, who was visiting his son at Mirwais hospital when he saw the children's lifeless bodies carried in.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."

An investigation into Sunday's incident will be conducted by Afghan police and the major crimes unit within Canadian Forces Military Police.

*The Canadian military expressed remorse over the tragedy.

"We deeply regret this incident, and our thoughts are with the families and friends of the deceased during this difficult time," it said in a statement.

"This is a tough incident for the crews involved to deal with, as this is the last thing soldiers want to happen," the army said.

"The soldiers believed they had to take action to protect their convoy because the car was coming toward them at high speed."*

Hospital staff said the children's father, Rozi Khan, sustained minor injuries. The children's mother and the driver of the car were not injured.

Afghan and United Nations officials have pleaded with international troops to avoid causing civilian casualties, which undermine support for the government and foreign forces.

Human Rights Watch says at least 300 Afghan civilians were mistakenly killed by the coalition last year, and thousands are believed to have died since 2001.

Insurgents killed even more civilians - at least 374 - in attacks last year.

The police officer who saw the children's mother crying in the hospital said foreigners aren't the only ones to blame for civilian deaths.

"They're not killing civilians in Kabul. Why is that?" Abdul Karim asked rhetorically. "They don't kill them in Kabul because there is peace there. Here, (soldiers) are scared."

The policeman was being treated for injuries from a land-mine explosion.

Militants regularly use civilian cars loaded with explosives in suicide missions.

With a finger constantly on the trigger, LAV gunners scan the road ahead for possible threats.

*In cases where coalition forces have fired a split-second too late, soldiers have been killed in suicide explosions.* In cases where they've fired too early, innocent people have died - as was the case Sunday.

*Coalition forces run frequent advertising campaigns that warn Afghan locals to keep a safe distance from convoys. In fact, most locals are terrified of getting close to military vehicles.*

The approach of such convoys frequently triggers a frantic scene in Kandahar city. Brakes screech, steering wheels swerve and drivers seek to avoid crashing into each other as they pull off the road and out of the convoy's way.

Taxi drivers in Kandahar city wave down their colleagues and shout at them to stay off certain streets where foreign troops are spotted.

Earlier this month, U.S. forces wiped out an entire wedding party in eastern Afghanistan, killing 47 civilians in an aerial bombing, the Afghan government has said.

Canada has no aircraft in Afghanistan capable of such attacks from the sky. But Canada has been involved in other civilian killings before.

In one incident, a 90-year-old man who was a respected political scientist and mentor to President Hamid Karzai was shot when he approached troops on a motorbike.

In another, a young man riding on a motorbike was shot through the chest and the bullet struck the head of his little brother riding behind him, killing the boy.

*The Canadian military frequently offers financial compensation for civilian deaths. It said it would speak to the family and follow the local custom in this case.

"We will remain in contact with the family and will provide them with explanations about why our soldiers took the actions they did," the military said.

"It is not our policy to discuss in detail compensation to families . . . (but) we will strive to follow cultural customs and traditions in the manner in which we express our condolences." *


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (28 Jul 2008)

Hind sight is always 20/20.  It is easy to second guess what shoulda, coulda, woulda have been done.  War is made up of spit second life and death situations. Sometimes the right decision is not easy one.  No normal person wants to harm a child.  
It is extremely unfortunate when when an innocent child dies, especially when that is not the intent of why Canadians troops are over there.  But, if the bonehead driving had just obeyed the rules, this wouldn't even be an issue.  And the soldier that had to make that life or death decision will probably not be sleeping very well tonight. My heart goes out to him/her.
But, I for one, am glad that he/she and his/her buddies will be coming home and that I won't have to be making another trip down to the Highway of Heroes.  
Sometimes life is not fair.
May the children rest in peace and the Canadian troops come home safe and sound.


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## muskrat89 (28 Jul 2008)

I have to wonder if it was done on purpose. There is as much propaganda value in this as a suicide bomb. Add the psyops value as well. We know the enemy is not above sacrificing innocents to achieve their aims.


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## Good2Golf (28 Jul 2008)

Interesting details in the article...it was the family and a driver, the driver not being the father as many first assumed.  Hypothetically, if the driver was an insurgent who was prepared to die anyway, whether to probe the coalition defences with a "recce" drive by, or conduct a VBIED attack, then having the family in the car would strengthen the Taliban IO plan in a relatively simple manner.  Still hypothetically, the family might have though the driver was a friend who could be trusted.  All hypothetical, but you have to consider that this is one of many possibilities that the gunners in the convoy would have to deal with...armchair quarterbacking from a warm anchor desk or livingroom or House of Commons is far easier than making life or death decisions with a sea of ROE and factors and directives swimming around in a soldier's mind with, in many cases, fractions of a second to react.

I find this a particularly interesting view by the ANP officer in the hospital...at least some one said it.



> The police officer who saw the children's mother crying in the hospital said foreigners aren't the only ones to blame for civilian deaths.
> 
> "They're not killing civilians in Kabul. Why is that?" Abdul Karim asked rhetorically. "They don't kill them in Kabul because there is peace there. Here, (soldiers) are scared."


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## GAP (28 Jul 2008)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> I have to wonder if it was done on purpose. There is as much propaganda value in this as a suicide bomb. Add the psyops value as well. We know the enemy is not above sacrificing innocents to achieve their aims.



Just go for a drive....with the idiots we have on our roads here, do you think Afghanistan is going to be better? 

This one I would chalk up to stupidity....


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## mr.rhtuner (28 Jul 2008)

These 'threats' shouldn't be tolerated at all...



*"Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."*


really, all we are doing is trying to clean up that obstruction of a country and we get threats for it? I understand the accident scenerio...BUT follow the rules = you won't get attacked.


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## Good2Golf (28 Jul 2008)

I'd be keeping a close eye on the driver's actions from now on.......


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## 1feral1 (28 Jul 2008)

mr.rhtuner said:
			
		

> These 'threats' shouldn't be tolerated at all...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello fellow friends of army.ca

Sadly thats the mentality of many of these 'ancient' cultures, an eye for an eye, in the most barbaric way. Many cannot see the good that gets done, and when a tragic event happens, we get the blame, and we are condemmed for defending ourselves by such outragous comments, and looked down upon by many.

I am not suprised.

One day this war is going to end, and nothing will change from 1879, to 1979, to 2009. Afghanistan will always be what it is, and IMHO, thats a corrupt primitive cruel tribal society, steeped in violence with revenge, with customs and traditions we, as westerners will not totally understand.

Regards,

OWDU


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## xena (28 Jul 2008)

Ultimately it'll come down to a paradigm shift of realizing there is no "us and them", but only "us".  As long as we imagine that there is a set of "others" that we can blame, we will continue to blame, and fight, and seek revenge.  Much like this Dad is doing.  There's more bravery in forgiving a wrong done to you than there is in seeking revenge.  Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against defending those who need it, nor against preventing horrible people from committing atrocities, but seeking revenge is a totally different issue.


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## stegner (28 Jul 2008)

Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?   Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?


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## Dog Walker (28 Jul 2008)

CTV has a piece on the shootings featuring a military analyst by the name of Mercedes Stephenson. She seems to have a better grasp of military matters than most of the TV experts, and gets her message across in a clear and concise manner. 

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/children-killed/#clip70066


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## HItorMiss (28 Jul 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?



Are you serious  ???

As for the 25mm I hav no idea whythat was fired, generaly it would/should have been the coax or pintol mount...That being said however I will not second guess the actions of the gunner or the Crew Commander they were the guys on the ground and they made the call. Had they made the wrong one perhaps the news would read " X Canadian soldiers killed in car bombing"

I for one feel bad for the kids but them is the breaks....


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## GAP (28 Jul 2008)

Dog Walker said:
			
		

> CTV has a piece on the shootings featuring a military analyst by the name of Mercedes Stephenson. She seems to have a better grasp of military matters than most of the TV experts, and gets her message across in a clear and concise manner.
> 
> http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/children-killed/#clip70066



You're right...she's clear, consise and accurate...a pleasant change...

edited to add: watching CBC coverage now, and they, while being accurate, are sure playing up the issue of turning Afghan civilians against the Canadians if these accidents continue.....like, soldiers we know you didn't mean it, but God....get it right!!


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## 1feral1 (28 Jul 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?   Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?



Dear Kind Sir, and Academic of Academia ( as so worded in your profile),

Can you please enlighten us by telling how you would go to a stowage container, then get out of a moving armoured vehicle say at 50Kph, then set up and deploy a spike belt when a suspect vehicle is gaining speed on you, all under less than 100metres, when you have a matter of a few seconds, if that?

Shooting engine blocks eh, humm, I want to stop the driver from blowing us (and me) up by KILLING him, so to do a hit and miss on radiators and engine blocks could cost me and others our lives. You can't fight, yetalone win a war by being Mr Political Correct.  The whole vehicle is going to get peppered, with particular attention to the driver and occupants.

Perhaps if I may be so polite and kind by suggesting you stick to your area of expertise.


Warm regards,

OWDU.


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## Love793 (28 Jul 2008)

"Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."

Is it just me, or do these comments seem a little, shall we say doctored? Not trying to sound like some conspiracy nut, but I'd really like to see the actual translation, not the the Liberal/NDP media outlets translation.


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## Trinity (28 Jul 2008)

Is this not a situation where using Dazzlers would have saved lives???  

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=57794810-30c5-43b6-a148-3acbb64f853f


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## yak (28 Jul 2008)

The RAF around KAF will bounce a pencil flare off your windshield if they don't like the way you're acting, if they have the chance.

But I'm not second guessing the actions that cost those kids their lives.  Not from the other side of the planet.


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## stegner (28 Jul 2008)

Overwatch Downunder,

Who says you have to get out of the LAV? Please see this site http://www.mobiledeploymentsystems.com/.   Suffice to say one can deploy a spike belt from the comfort of the drivers seat.  

I realize that being political correct does not always win wars, but neither do tragic events such as these.  I feel for the soldier who pressed the trigger as this individual would most likely give almost anything for the car to be filled with terrorists rather than a family.   Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either.    The current policies are not fair for those in the convoys or the Afghanis that travel by them.   Perhaps, technology is a partial solution, something like this might be helpful http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-19-translators_x.htm.   Another technological solution might be buying a device to send a EMP pulse to the offending car frying the car and any electronics connected to explosives therein.


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## Franko (28 Jul 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?



Stegner,

Try asking yourself this if you only have about 5 seconds to live....



> Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?



That's what the warning gestures and signs are for....followed by bullets. 

Apparently the "laser dazzlers" are too inhumane for the infamous Rideau Institute Trinity.      

Again troops, the locals know the rules and avoid convoys. This guy didn't and the kids, sadly enough, suffered the consequences.

Don't second guess the troops that were there. 

As for EMPs....they fry everything in the area.

Regards


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## stegner (28 Jul 2008)

> Don't second guess the troops that were there.



Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again.


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## 1feral1 (28 Jul 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Overwatch Downunder,
> 
> Who says you have to get out of the LAV? Please see this site http://www.mobiledeploymentsystems.com/.   Suffice to say one can deploy a spike belt from the comfort of the drivers seat.
> 
> I realize that being political correct does not always win wars, but neither do tragic events such as these.  I feel for the soldier who pressed the trigger as this individual would most likely give almost anything for the car to be filled with terrorists rather than a family.   Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either.    The current policies are not fair for those in the convoys or the Afghanis that travel by them.   Perhaps, technology is a partial solution, something like this might be helpful http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-12-19-translators_x.htm.   Another technological solution might be buying a device to send a EMP pulse to the offending car frying the car and any electronics connected to explosives therein.



Kind Sir, and Gentleman

Like I said, stick to your area of expertise, you don't have a clue in the reailty of what goes on, shy of media releases and INet gadgetry. In the real world, things are not so warm and fuzzy. However, I do like the bit "Thus, I think that the CF really needs to reevaluate its communications with the Afghani population with respect to convoys .  Flashing lights and signs where many folks are illiterate are not ideal-the oral communications also seem to be not ideal either." That nearly sent me into spasms alone.

You would might not make the best soldier, but you would appear to have all the makings of a good politican.  ;D

Humble regards from the tropics,

OWDU


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## stegner (28 Jul 2008)

> You would might not make the best soldier, but you would appear to have all the makings of a good poliitican.  Grin



Or a bureaucrat I hope!  

Enjoy the tropics.


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## Fusaki (28 Jul 2008)

> Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again.



LAV Gunners take these kinds of situations very seriously and they put alot of thought into their convoy SOPs. No one wants to kill kids and innocents - every one of us knows that we will live with the choices that we make on the roads in Kandahar. But the point at which warning shots turn into lethal force is a grey area, with each situation dependant on the circumstances. It's impossible to armchair this one.

In fall 06 I was a LAV gunner involved in a convoy op in southern Afghanistan. At one point a vehicle pulled out and began speeding towards us, and I fired my COAX in accordance with ROEs. When the dust cleared the battle aiming mark on my daysight was sitting right in the middle of some kid's head as I looked through the windshield at him sitting on the driver's lap. The driver decided to stop just in time, and I checked fire just in time. No one was hurt, but I was seriously pissed off. How the frig could the driver have been so stupid? Risking his life and his family's life like that? Doesn't he know that this game is for keeps? If the timing had been a half second off I would have wasted every single ******* person in that car. And I would have had to live with that.

In the early spring 07 another car was speeding towards us. He got the drop on us, and the ****** exploded himself on the side of my LAV. No one was hurt thankfully, aside from the suicide bomber. But what if someone was hurt? Maybe I should have been just a split second quicker on the trigger. frig, I don't know.

These are the decisions made every day by our guys in Afghanistan and it pisses me off to see this crap armchaired. Guys do enough second guessing of their own actions. They don't need john smith on army.ca or on the CBC adding to it.

Sorry for the vent. This one hits close to home.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jul 2008)

.....and the same people that are bitching about us shooting are the same ones that are bitching when we suggest non lethal pulsating laser lights. :

It seems thay really don't want us to succeed.


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## TCBF (29 Jul 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Not trying to do that.  They did the best with the tools that they were given.   Just trying to think of different tools that could be used in the future to prevent events like this from happening again.



- Good thinking, and you are not alone: there are all sorts of 'boffins' out there trying to develop non-lethal tools to replace some of the lethals in some of the situations.  But, as in 1914-1918 and 1939-1945, technology lags behind the need. 

- Necessity is the mother of invention: in the meantime, we do the best with what we have.


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## fire_guy686 (29 Jul 2008)

I see the usual suspects are out and about posting on the CBC site.  : I used to try and post there and have just given up. No matter what you say they never take anything into consideration.


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## KevinB (29 Jul 2008)

25mm  ???  Appropriate means for an appropriate threat (part of the EOF and ROE) maybe if a BMP had been lumbering at them.

Green Lasers - In use by US forces here, and they work -- the high power ones (as opposed to PX specials - which even still are bright - but not the same) They cause immediate discomfort and nasuea and temporary blindness -- its a great tool, and needs to be in the CF inventory.

Vehicle disabling techniques -- best start at 100m
 100-75m Vehicle Strobes and directed Ligth and Laser, flares as well
 75-50m (also depend on vehicle speed) 2nd Flare
<50m aimed shots - into vehicle start with engine - then into passenger compartment if driver still fails to stop.

I have own problems with the "bubble" mentality - as one can easily park vehicles by the side of the road or swerve into an oncoming convoy - and their is nothing your bubble can do.  Mingling with traffic does expose you to problems - but it also is a shield, and the PR/ hearts and minds is a great deal better.

The more you isolate yourself from the populace the more you become an crusading infidel.

FYI the US Army now mingles in traffic in the majority of areas here, after learning the bubble culture was hindering efforts.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> .....and the same people that are bitching about us shooting are the same ones that are bitching when we suggest non lethal pulsating laser lights. :
> 
> It seems thay really don't want us to succeed.



On!!!!


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## vonGarvin (29 Jul 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?   Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?


Slow down.  Who, other than a reporter, said that it was a 25mm?  Honestly, at 10 metres, the kinetic energy from a training round would have done more than what was reported.
You weren't there.  Neither was I.  If t here is an investigation, then so be it.  Otherwise, speculation and such questioning is useless.


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## Jammer (29 Jul 2008)

Agreed with MR.
My crew used to, and will again in the near future have an ample supply of water bottles to ward off those who don't read or seem to understand pictograms.
There are a myriad of factors that may have (or not) have come into play here, unfortunately TTP OPSEC prevent me from going into detail. Those here who have already been in this situation will already know this.


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 Jul 2008)

Jammer halfway through TF 3-06 water bottles were disallowed.

Rolling convoy's and spike strips are not practical.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2008)

MAMS_933 said:
			
		

> I see the usual suspects are out and about posting on the CBC site.  : I used to try and post there and have just given up. No matter what you say they never take anything into consideration.



If there's any comfort to be taken here, when looking at the comments, try clicking on the "Sort by Most recommended" button - some of the more reasonable responses climb to the top.  When I last checked (10:02am), it was six pro-troops/mission vs. four anti-troops/mission in the top ten - don't be shy about dropping by and making recommendations of your own.


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## 3rdroyal (29 Jul 2008)

Father Doesn't Understand Why Troops Opened Fire

Josh Pringle
Tuesday, July 29, 2008 on CFRA News

"The father of two Afghan children accidentally killed by Canadian soldiers acknowledges the driver of his car may have made mistakes.
*But Ruzi Mohammed tells the Globe and Mail Canadian soldiers should have been able to prevent the incident from happening given their advanced technology*.
Canadian troops opened fire on the car after it got too close to their convoy in Kandahar province. A two-year-old boy and a four-year-old girl were killed.
*Mohammed suggests the fact the car had five people should have told the Canadian soldiers the vehicle was not a threat.*
The Canadian Forces plan to offer compensation to the family.

Soldiers told The Canadian Press they flashed the lights on their vehicles, made hand gestures and issued audio warnings for the car to pull over."

Lets be honest with each other, the moron driving the car didn't listen and now 2 kids are dead. When a car is driving at you and not heeding the multiple warnings it is given, it IS a threat.The only technology available to tell if there are explosives are even weapons in an oncoming vehicle is the Mark I eyeball.  Im sick of the media making us look like the bad guys, when we are trying to help these people. Im sick of hearing joe civvy's opinion about something he knows sweet f*** all about. Its frustrating, GROIN GRABBINGLY frustrating.


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## Jammer (29 Jul 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Jammer halfway through TF 3-06 water bottles were disallowed.
> 
> Rolling convoy's and spike strips are not practical.



I know...I was there.
However...that being said I found it to be a more effective deterrent than warning shots when you were confident you we dealing with just a guy who was impatient.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2008)

Let's see, so far, the Globe & Mail says:



> Noor Mohammed, a distant relative of the victims who lives in Kandahar city, said the driver knew that road intimately because he commuted every day from his home in Chalghowr village to work at a shop in the city that sold spare parts for vehicles.  The family believes that the driver tried to stop before reaching the Canadian vehicles but got nervous and stamped his foot on the wrong pedal, the relative said.  "The driver was confused," he said. "He put his foot on the accelerator instead of the brake."



Canadian Press says:



> The father was also a passenger in the vehicle. He was being treated for lacerations but left the Kandahar city hospital without permission to attend his children's funeral ....  Staff at the Kandahar hospital said the children's father, Rozi Khan, suffered minor injuries. The children's mother and the driver of the car were not injured.



And the most recent CBC.ca,  National Post, Reuters and AFP coverage I've found has no quotes from anyone in the car or anyone who's dealt with anyone in the car.

Dopey question, here - has any MSM asked either *the father* or *the driver* why the car didn't stop?

Anyone?  Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?


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## stegner (29 Jul 2008)

> The soldiers used hand signals, flashing lights and sirens in a futile attempt to warn the car away.


From http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=535792c2-0dc2-4c79-80fb-63344cc7e988

Are there pre-recorded warnings in several dialects that could be played over some speakers as convoys travel?


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## Greymatters (29 Jul 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Dopey question, here - has any MSM asked either *the father* or *the driver* why the car didn't stop?
> Anyone?  Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?



This was my first thought after reading the article.

Contrary to popular opinion about people in less-developed countries, local inhabitants in Afghanistan are not morons.  Basic survival taught them long ago 'if its dangerous, avoid it'.  As soldiers we've seen this in many foreign countries, where the mere sight of a gun made civilians melt away and not want to talk with us.  This concept was in place long before we got there, and we've been there going on six years.  There's no need for 'public warning campaigns' other than a CYA visibility for the folks back home.  Every citizen in that country, young and old, knows by word of mouth that you should not approach a foreign infidel unless you clearly demonstrate your purpose.  

So now we have a person refusing to acknowledge signals to stay away, and even more perplexing, knowingly risking the lives of his children in doing so.  And then afterwards 'relatives' being quite forward with foreign news crews about how wronged he was.  

Nope, nothing suspicious here, move along folks, move along...


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## darmil (29 Jul 2008)

We use spot lights to blind drivers and i acquired pen flare kits from an American.


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 Jul 2008)

Jammer said:
			
		

> I know...I was there.
> However...that being said I found it to be a more effective deterrent than warning shots when you were confident you we dealing with just a guy who was impatient.



Agreed


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## KevinB (29 Jul 2008)

On BigRed's and I old contract that company had a somewhat prolific shooting that killed two women in a car.  The women panicked and the guys applied the ROE...

  Sadly it happens.

Despite what you think, in Afghan and Iraq, people are used to guns, and you have to remember it is their country - they are trying to get along with life, sometime mistakes are made when they are trying to get along with their life.


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## OldSolduer (29 Jul 2008)

Events of this nature will happen. It's unfortunate, and I am sorry that family lost two chidren.

The average person on the street has been be-dazzled by the media and Hollywood into believing that only bad people and soldiers get killed in wars. We use euphemisms such as "collateral damage" as if children and people are buildings or cars. It shoud be called what it is....an unfortunate turn of events in which the one party made a very serious error.


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## Jammer (29 Jul 2008)

How would you classify this as an error? 
In judgement?


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## OldSolduer (29 Jul 2008)

Error in the driver of said car approaching a convoy after numerous warnings not to.


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## Jammer (29 Jul 2008)

Understood.
I would submit that we have a more disciplined approach than some of our other Allies regarding this sort of incident.


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## FastEddy (29 Jul 2008)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Hello fellow friends of army.ca
> 
> Sadly thats the mentality of many of these 'ancient' cultures, an eye for an eye, in the most barbaric way. Many cannot see the good that gets done, and when a tragic event happens, we get the blame, and we are condemmed for defending ourselves by such outragous comments, and looked down upon by many.
> 
> ...




Hi Big Fella,  You got my vote.

I won't even comment on this one, I just hope the poor Sod doesn't get hung out to dry.

Cheers.


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## FastEddy (29 Jul 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Why not put a couple of 5.56mm or 7.62mm rounds through the engine or tires instead of 25mm through the windshield?   Can convoys not deploy some spike belts to slow down cars?




Get Real or Get some Military Experience, please.


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## fire_guy686 (29 Jul 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> If there's any comfort to be taken here, when looking at the comments, try clicking on the "Sort by Most recommended" button - some of the more reasonable responses climb to the top.  When I last checked (10:02am), it was six pro-troops/mission vs. four anti-troops/mission in the top ten - don't be shy about dropping by and making recommendations of your own.



I still go and check out what they have to say. Some of which is so completely stupid that it's funny. Rather than posting now I usually just recommend others who have a clue about what their talking about, unless of course I see something that cannot be left alone. I used to get frustrated sometimes with some of them ,and the majority of the trolls who post there are just not worth getting frustrated over.


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## tomahawk6 (30 Jul 2008)

Read this article in the Torch about incidents like this.With suicide car bombings the rage how can we fault the sentry for engaging a civilian vehicle that could endanger the enire convoy ? If you want to live to see home you shoot first and ask questions later.If the civilian driver obeyed the signs to stay back incidents like this wouldnt happen. Let me echo the author's last sentence - "each and every one of us should be glad we weren't the one who had to make that split-second decision."

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/07/life-or-death-in-split-second.html



> LAV Gunners take these kinds of situations very seriously and they put alot of thought into their convoy SOPs. No one wants to kill kids and innocents - every one of us knows that we will live with the choices that we make on the roads in Kandahar. But the point at which warning shots turn into lethal force is a grey area, with each situation dependant on the circumstances. It's impossible to armchair this one.
> 
> In fall 06 I was a LAV gunner involved in a convoy op in southern Afghanistan. At one point a vehicle pulled out and began speeding towards us, and I fired my COAX in accordance with ROEs. When the dust cleared the battle aiming mark on my daysight was sitting right in the middle of some kid's head as I looked through the windshield at him sitting on the driver's lap. The driver decided to stop just in time, and I checked fire just in time. No one was hurt, but I was seriously pissed off. How the frig could the driver have been so stupid? Risking his life and his family's life like that? Doesn't he know that this game is for keeps? If the timing had been a half second off I would have wasted every single ******* person in that car. And I would have had to live with that.
> 
> ...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Jul 2008)

tomahawk6 - that came from a post in this thread.


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## tomahawk6 (30 Jul 2008)

I guess its getting alot of play. I saw the link in a US mil blog which quoted the LAV gunner which was quoted by the Torch.Which may have been lifted from army.ca . 

http://www.thedonovan.com/


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## The Bread Guy (1 Aug 2008)

In the second round of coverage, it seems the father of the kids has spoken to the media.

The longest, more detailed account I can find is in the National Post/CanWest. 

This, as well as CBC online's version and Canadian Press' (via the Toronto Star and Globe & Mail) mention this version of events:  "(the father) said the driver at first pulled over but inexplicably drove back onto the highway after two armoured vehicles had passed when more were on the way."

While all the stories emphasize the "I'll Kill Canadians If I Can" messaging (with only the National Post providing a bit of context:  "When asked what he wants to happen now, Muhammed twice said he wants to "kill Canadians."  However, after a few moments, he added: "I am a poor man, they should help me." "), none of the stories I've seen so far show any indication of anybody asking either the father or the taxi driver:  "Why would you pull into the middle of a military convoy if they don't even want you too close to the front or back?"

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?  Maybe someone'll ask for the next round of stories...

Happy to hear from those who've been/done re:  how broadly folks know about staying out of the middle of NATO convoys (based on some previous posts, I'm guessing they must generally know, but I stand to be corrected).


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Aug 2008)

Who's to say that the Taliban didn't have this guess sent in to see our response to a vehicle with a kid or how this convoy would react.  Maybe further down the road the real show was waiting.  And yes they are no dummies, they no not to get anywhere close to our convoys.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Aug 2008)

Sometimes the Taliban pay/force drivers and/or families to make runs at NATO convoys or positions.
-Gives them an idea how close they can get before said specific group enacts their ROEs.
-If NATO does open fire and hurt civilians then media victory for them.

Sometimes drivers are just stupid and don't pay attention.
They think if they have 5 people in a car they aren't a threat so they try and blow past convoys.
Sometimes they don't give a shit "fuck you nato" and just do what they want.


If you guys really wanna scratch your head go check out some of the left wing message forums.
Canadian soldiers execute 2 children!
Canadian assassins targeted a mans children because the man refused to let them in his house blah blah
Canadian soldiers told to target children to scare locals into turning over suspected talban.

Some people are SO detached from reality you just can't get mad at them.

I wonder though, when a suicide bomber nukes himself and takes out children does the AlJazeria network post the same kind of stories?

"Sadly today a suicide bomber killed himself targeting a NATO convoy and regrettably killed  children 3 women a grandfather and 6 camels.
Spoke persons have said that bombers need to hide in crowded markets with locals  because out in the open road they are too easily identified.  If the infidels would just leave and let us enslave the country then these little children wouldn't be dying. Atleast by IEDs"


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