# New NDHQ - put all  Ottawa Staff  on shift work.



## 54/102 CEF (26 Apr 2006)

Last fall there was an artists sketch about a new NDHQ in the East Ottawa area.

Working in NDHQ I get the sense that DND is not cracking the code on how to make nice with the Canadian Taxpayer.

Since NDHQ is the hub of all things DND - lets treat it like a ship or battalion on operations and run at least 2 shifts because the joint is empty from 1530 to 0630 daily. 

My idea is

Core Command team is there from whenever they want and the rest spread through a morning and afternoon shift. At your desk (this includes the ADM MAT old boys by the way in other buildings who I hear are very pressed for space)

Repeat for Canada Command and anyone else who needs space.

Estimated net reduction in infrastructure required = at least 30% = more $$$$ for big ticket items - some of which have horizontal blades.

Your staff would work 6.5 hrs daily and head to the gym - being monitored by their ID card. Those that don`t go to the gym are exempted from Express test or heading to the release section soon.

If they can`t bite into this idea it would tend to prove that (your reply goes here)

That goes for all civvies and military currently at NDHQ.

Now - lets play senior manager and think out of the box with your replies.

This is about using an asset to the maximum, spreading out the commuting problem - maybe be a great model for other government departments on space utlisation etc............. and save your money as the guy on the I.N.G. banking commercials says


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## Centurian1985 (26 Apr 2006)

Be assured, while many of the staff are gone by 1530,  oops I mean 1630, there are always two offices open at NDHQ that run 24/7 all year long.  Thus, I dont see where you get the idea no one is there at night.   

Ref the idea of staff being responsible for their own hours, there are two ideas here.
1) A lot of them already are.
2) The rest are being micro-managed by X-type managers.

Even in times when there is room for flexible shifts, there are numerous restrictions, the worst being the need for all staff in a section to gather together on a regular basis for discussion and passage of information. There are other problems, which you will be unaware of unless you work there.


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## Michael Dorosh (26 Apr 2006)

54/102 CEF said:
			
		

> Last fall there was an artists sketch about a new NDHQ in the East Ottawa area.
> 
> Working in NDHQ I get the sense that DND is not cracking the code on how to make nice with the Canadian Taxpayer.
> 
> ...



And what experience do you have at NDHQ, personally, and what makes you think there is a necessity for working past 1530 or 1630? I've worked for major corporations, small businesses, 1-man operations, you name it.  Some office environments - most of them, really - have no requirement for round the clock operations. Why would the majority of NDHQ need to be any different?

Please state your experience here, or put another way, convince us you're not straying out of your lane.

And even if you really do have a clue what goes on at NDHQ, how many of the rest of us would really be able to speak with authority in discussing suggestions for widespread change in that institution?

I mean, shift work on a ship is fine if all you need to share is a bed - you're seriously suggesting that desks be occupied in shifts?  I don't know what the average NDHQ guy keeps in his desk but I can be damn sure no one would ever get along in any office I've ever been to if they had to physically share a desk, its set of drawers, and the cubicle or office space.

Seems to me like another case of "he works in an office so let's deny him quality of life issues cause the troops have it tougher than him." Which is garbage.


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## 54/102 CEF (26 Apr 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> And what experience do you have at NDHQ, personally, and what makes you think there is a necessity for working past 1530 or 1630?



I have as much as the next guy - check my profile -- my work day runs 0630 - 1830 - an extra 3 hours - no extra time away from house - just a slight shift. People keep same holidays - same work time - but slightly different schedule. Note I never asked for round the clock operations



			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Please state your experience here, or put another way, convince us you're not straying out of your lane.



I`m asking a question which seems as good as asking how to prep for exercises or other military activities. So far not getting any innovative comment. And its not about what you wrote so don`t get riled up. 



			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> And what experience do you have at NDHQ, personally, and what makes you think there is a necessity for working past 1530 or 1630?



A foot bridge 500 yards up stream from NDHQ was just sold to the city for 7 million bucks. I think as taxpayers we should be asking these questions.



			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I mean, shift work on a ship is fine if all you need to share is a bed - you're seriously suggesting that desks be occupied in shifts?



Yes - bring your homey stuff in your Cadpat bag and take it home or put it in a locker when you`re done for the day. 



			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Seems to me like another case of "he works in an office so let's deny him quality of life issues cause the troops have it tougher than him." Which is garbage.



If I was trying to deny quality of life - it would be. But I`m not. No change to work. Just a 3 hour shift in when you do it. And guarantee all a chance at the robust culture of the Armed forces vs the culture of the cubicle.


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## Sig_Des (26 Apr 2006)

I can tell you that my team of 12 shares a 4 cubicle space. That's right 12 people, in a space designed for 4.

We've managed to scrounge 6 comps, and connect them to the DIN, but still. Most of us are on the road a lot of the time, but when you have all of us there. Hot-desking it, as it were, might work.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (26 Apr 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I can tell you that my team of 12 shares a 4 cubicle space. That's right 12 people, in a space designed for 4.
> 
> We've managed to scrounge 6 comps, and connect them to the DIN, but still. Most of us are on the road a lot of the time, but when you have all of us there. Hot-desking it, as it were, might work.



As an internal NDHQ guy, if you were put in charge what would you do (infrastructure, personnel, etc)?  (Importantly, this is a genuine question.  I'm not trying to be sarcastic in any way).

Thanks in advance,


Matthew.


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## Sig_Des (26 Apr 2006)

Personally, better use of space.

I see cubicles that are always empty, or just used as storage. Appropriate based on need.

Similarly, as far as IT, identify on need. 12 IT Tech support people, having to share 6 computers...What say we?

Right now it's pretty much, cram people into whatever space we can find.

Look at CANSOFCOM HQ spread


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Apr 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Personally, better use of space.
> 
> I see cubicles that are always empty, or just used as storage. Appropriate based on need.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what point you've been trying to make. Are you saying that 12 people crammed into the space of 6 is optimal? You've admitted the occupants are away from the desk often.

Do you agree or disagree that adequate work space is a valid quality of life issue?

Do you agree or disagree that moving half of you to a second shift is a good idea?


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## Sig_Des (27 Apr 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what point you've been trying to make. Are you saying that 12 people crammed into the space of 6 is optimal? You've admitted the occupants are away from the desk often.
> 
> Do you agree or disagree that adequate work space is a valid quality of life issue?
> 
> Do you agree or disagree that moving half of you to a second shift is a good idea?



I'm saying that 12 people, working at 6 workstations, in an area designated for 4 workstations, is NOT Optimal.

I'm agreeing that adequate work space is not only a valid quality of life issue, but also one of quality of work. I'm saying that there's workstation spaces elsewhere on the floor that should be allocated to personel being used as box storage.

Regardless of the fact that members of my team are frequently away on TAV's, we should have adequate space, for our equipment, and to work in. Just because a inf Coy is frequently away in the field, doesn't mean they shouldn't have adequate barracks spaces for the members.

Would shift work be good? I don't know. Depends on the shifts, as there would still be crossover times when the entire team is there, and for us, there is not current requirement for 24 hr svc. I know that our higher-ups are looking at the shift possibility. I don't know if it'll work, however.


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## orange.paint (27 Apr 2006)

54/102 CEF said:
			
		

> Your staff would work 6.5 hrs daily and head to the gym - being monitored by their ID card. Those that don`t go to the gym are exempted from Express test  heading to the release section soon.



54/104 we think too much alike.I truly believe a swipe card at the base gym is a brilliant idea! We could fire all the psp staff that hangs out all day at the front counter (not the pt instructors!)saving the army a lot of money.This is a way to make a culture of fitness and hold people responsiable when their card hasnt been swiped in 16 years.

excellent ideas yet again 
sorry for the hijack


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## Michael OLeary (27 Apr 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> 54/104 we think too much alike.I truly believe a swipe card at the base gym is a brilliant idea! We could fire all the psp staff that hangs out all day at the front counter (not the pt instructors!)saving the army a lot of money.This is a way to make a culture of fitness and hold people responsiable when their card hasnt been swiped in 16 years.
> 
> excellent ideas yet again
> sorry for the hijack



Because having a six-pack trumps professional competence every time.


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## orange.paint (27 Apr 2006)

Not always but it helps!
Plus it good for mental health.


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## 54/102 CEF (27 Apr 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> 54/104 we think too much alike.I truly believe a swipe card at the base gym is a brilliant idea! We could fire all the psp staff that hangs out all day at the front counter (not the pt instructors!)saving the army a lot of money.This is a way to make a culture of fitness and hold people responsiable when their card hasnt been swiped in 16 years.
> 
> excellent ideas yet again
> sorry for the hijack



Happy to hear from you! Tracking at the gym is actually an extension of the concept of tracking people at the mess halls. The endstate is better stuff for all - DND should be able to show and probably already can show its the healthiest fittest role model in Canadian society.


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## Bart Nikodem (27 Apr 2006)

I don't think hot-desking would be a problem but hot-office chairing would be. When I was a security guard we worked in shifts and 3 guys shared 1 chair and let me tell you, it was replaced pretty frequently. _Funky_!
All the best,
Bart


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## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2006)

I'm sorry but I really disagree with this.  I train almost every day and I don't hit the gym everyday.  I don't need to push iron to keep me in shape.  I hate training inside.  I run, do push ups, sit ups, I use the environement to train.  Just because I'm not using DND installations to do my stuff makes me a bad leader\soldier?

Max



			
				54/102 CEF said:
			
		

> Happy to hear from you! Tracking at the gym is actually an extension of the concept of tracking people at the mess halls. The endstate is better stuff for all - DND should be able to show and probably already can show its the healthiest fittest role model in Canadian society.


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## Centurian1985 (28 Apr 2006)

A lot of these postings labour under the mistaken impression that everyone at NDHQ has time to go to the gym every day.  Although I didnt work at NDHQ, I did work at another major HQ unit.  I made it a point to hit the gym a minimum of 3 times a week, which I managed to do with a lot of schedule juggling due to staff meetings, production demands, exercises, and responding to real-world situations that impacted the forces.  If things got really busy at work I ended up doing my workouts at home.  Now, this isnt true for ALL employees at NDHQ, but it is true for several hundred of them at the least. How would you work around that?  Put a swipe card in their garage?


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Apr 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I'm saying that 12 people, working at 6 workstations, in an area designated for 4 workstations, is NOT Optimal.
> 
> I'm agreeing that adequate work space is not only a valid quality of life issue, but also one of quality of work. I'm saying that there's workstation spaces elsewhere on the floor that should be allocated to personel being used as box storage.
> 
> ...



I certainly agree with you then.  The rest of the thread is a bit confusing - what does going to the gym have to do with office space utilization? 

And what is this stuff about "3 hour shifts" in a cubicle? Sounds like a lot of stuff and nonsense.

Why do military vehicles sometimes get so thoroughly trashed in exercises?  They don't belong to anyone.  Personally, I take pride in ownership at my civvie job - and at the Reserves, come to that - in having my own office.  I put up pictures (without taking them home in a dufflebag at the end of the day, an idiotic suggestion if I ever heard one) and consider the place home away from home. Quality of life. Not all people require this, there are definitely personality types which react different to these kinds of touches. Was just at a conference yesterday in which four major personality types were delineated and their office environment was described. The majority of persons in the room identified as the type who likes to put up pictures of kids and dogs and personalize their workspace. We as a society are long past the generational notion that you go to work at the same place, do as you're told, and go home at the end of the day.

We've had a couple seminars on the four generations prevalent today

a) Veterans - 63 years of age and older
b) Baby Boomers - 39-63
c) Generation X - 23-38
d) Generation Y - 22 and younger

The newer generations tend to be less serious, but more creative; the Veterans are more 'do as you're told" and identify strongly with their jobs.  When going to a party, two Veterans will ask "so what do you do" as it defines them. Gen X will say "how's it going" instead, and do not define themselves by what they do.   Point being, the new generation of workers - and the Army would be good to recognize this - tends to have less company loyalty and is more focused on the individual. Perks like individual office space are seen as attractive to them whereas the Veterans and Baby Boomers tend to focus more on the group.

Lots of factors at play here, and no one correct solution as to the use of office space.

I wonder if CEF isn't a Boomer, based on his comments?  I'm Gen X myself.

Note also the age groups shift as the generations age - in 5 years, Veterans will be 68 and older, etc.  I don't mean to say that we go through all the phases, ie a Gen X becomes a Boomer on his 39th bday.  You stay in the same generation group as you age, and the groups age with you.


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## 54/102 CEF (28 Apr 2006)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I run, do push ups, sit ups, I use the environement to train.  Just because I'm not using DND installations to do my stuff makes me a bad leader\soldier?



Not at all - its about the main driver - fixed infrastructure - my contention is we don't need more office space that's only used 8 hours a day - you do your PT per the regs - not a problem - higher long term costs come from those who don't.


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## 54/102 CEF (28 Apr 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> A lot of these postings labour under the mistaken impression that everyone at NDHQ has time to go to the gym every day.  Although I didnt work at NDHQ, I did work at another major HQ unit.  I made it a point to hit the gym a minimum of 3 times a week, which I managed to do with a lot of schedule juggling due to staff meetings, production demands, exercises, and responding to real-world situations that impacted the forces.  If things got really busy at work I ended up doing my workouts at home.  Now, this isnt true for ALL employees at NDHQ, but it is true for several hundred of them at the least. How would you work around that?  Put a swipe card in their garage?



As the CDS message on fitness said - its a leadership issue which he expects all to adhere to and encourage all to be fit. Obviously you don't need it five days a week. When you're not in the gym you CAN walk a km to the bus stop.

The driver is fixed infrastructure costs

The sweet payoff is increased and transparent fitness for all


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