# Personal Question regarding pistols (looking for input)



## LordOsborne (22 Feb 2008)

I'm going to get my PAL very soon and I am looking to buy a pistol as my first firearm. I have narrowed my possible options down, but I am open to input from anyone who has fired these pistols or has another one to recommend. My basic question is, Is there a pistol i've missed?

my pics:
#1: CZ-75 SP-01
#2: S&W M&P 9
#3: Glock 17C
#4: Norinco 1911

I have large hands, so i prefer the meatier-sized pistols. I have yet to actually hold a C7-75 SP-01, let alone fire it, but from what I have read on CZ and the pistol itself, it seems like a pretty darn good buy for the money. I'd appreciate any other suggestions or advice.


----------



## 1feral1 (22 Feb 2008)

CZ-75 or BHP.

My 2 cents


----------



## CBH99 (22 Feb 2008)

Just bought a S&M MP .40, for around $550 -- believe it or not, they were on a Christmas sale  

Its the only pistol I own, but so far I am very happy with it.  Comes with adjustable grips, so that might be something that appeals to you.  So far, not a single complaint - found it was great value for the money I spent.

Anyhow, just my 2 cents


----------



## bran (22 Feb 2008)

I have a glock 17 and its a solid pistol, fires real nice, but I'd say you missed the Sig Sauer P226 its worth a look.


----------



## LordOsborne (22 Feb 2008)

I really like the look of the M&P, and the price is not hard to swallow at all. I also think it's good value for the money, although I prefer an all-metal pistol just out of personal preference. The reason i didn't put a Sig up there was mostly because of price. I'm not keen on spending close to 1000$ on a pistol, and I chose mostly 9mm models due to the cheap price of ammo. I've handled a Glock 19, but to be honest, i wasn't a huge fan of the grip. I'm sure that can be changed, and after all, they do have a sterling reputation.


----------



## TCBF (22 Feb 2008)

- Anything in .45 ACP.


----------



## Old Ranger (22 Feb 2008)

Glock 17.

Had one years ago, loved it!
I am looking at getting another one very soon.
As for the "C", I-6 informed me it is great for repetitive fire, Except blinding in low light conditions.
Try and fire before you buy, especially if you have big meat hooks.
Good luck!

Ben

EDIT my SP's


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Feb 2008)

You can't go wrong with the CZ. You may also want to look over at Marstar.com, at the Chinese knock offs if price is a stumbling block.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Feb 2008)

The M&P and the Glock 17 prices are very good right now, check out Canadaammo

If you are new to shooting, stick to 9mm, it is the cheapest to shoot after .22cal, the 1911 offers a great trigger and if your heart is set on one check with Gunar at Armco, he cleans the Norcs up to improe fit and trigger pull. However .45acp is expensive to shoot, if you don't reload and leave your casings behind, other shooters like myself will love you!!

If you are going to get into shooting seriously, then consider reloading, at which point shooting .45acp and .40cal becomes economical, even reloading 9mm is worth it.


----------



## KevinB (22 Feb 2008)

For the avg shooter 9mm is hard to beat -- I am a 1911 .45ACP fan -- but I think for what you are lookign for the G17 or the M&P 9 would be the best options.

The C with its ported barrel will direct muzzle gases upwards into your LOS -- it will ruin your night vision when used in Low Light -- and while the C will aid follow up shots -- it will give you a false sence of control if you transition to non comped guns.

While polymer pistols can have their grips reworked - its more involved (unless it has interchangeable grips al a M&P)
 You can always use Hocket tap and grip tape to build up the grip is you get a gun with a smaller grip too...

I sold an older SigP226 to Paracowboy 2 years ago for $200 - so you just have to look for deals...


----------



## LordOsborne (22 Feb 2008)

Some great advice and input coming in, and I appreciate it. 

I have seriously considered the Marstar Norinco copies, but I have read of inconsistent quality control. I have read that their 1911s are the best bet for quality, though. The price is definately attractive, although I think it'd be offset in the long run due to the cost of .45 ACP. I have handled 1911s before, and they fit me well. I have yet to shoot one though, and I acknowledge that to really make an informed decision, I would have to handle and fire all types before buying. 

I think once I go reg, get posted and settled, I'll look into reloading my ammo.


----------



## medaid (22 Feb 2008)

I'm getting a Norinco 1911 soon. If you want, we can swap after awhile  You're only a ferry hop away anyways ;D


----------



## COBRA-6 (22 Feb 2008)

I have a Norc 870 and M14 copy and they are both excellent quality for the price.  

That being said you can't go wrong with a Glock!


----------



## TCBF (23 Feb 2008)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> ... That being said you can't go wrong with a Glock!



- No thank-you. I keep my Tupperware in my fridge, not my gun safe.

 8)


----------



## medaid (23 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - No thank-you. I keep my Tupperware in my fridge, not my gun safe.
> 
> 8)



Oh! Oh! Oh! Thems are fight'n words!  ;D


----------



## uzi (23 Feb 2008)

S&W M&P 9 & Glock 17, polymer frame and DAO.


----------



## Old Ranger (23 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> -Tupperware



Yah, for those of you youngins...that's like a very old plastic container for storing food that they used to have big parties around because it was so new and "space aged".
I guess it's hard to teach an O'll Dawg new tricks with state of the art polymer.

Glocks Rock! ;D


----------



## TCBF (24 Feb 2008)

- Plastic guns are to guns the way plastic blow-up dolls are to girls.


----------



## Old Ranger (24 Feb 2008)

Cheaper, more reliable for getting the job done, No "headaches", less maintenance. ;D


----------



## Colin Parkinson (25 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - No thank-you. I keep my Tupperware in my fridge, not my gun safe.
> 
> 8)



Yep you use them soft metal wartime 1911's I bet.


----------



## KevinB (25 Feb 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Yep you use them soft metal wartime 1911's I bet.



I have one of those 1943 "soft metal" guns -- runs a whole lot better than a lot of the newer stuff.


----------



## mudgunner49 (26 Feb 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I have one of those 1943 "soft metal" guns -- runs a whole lot better than a lot of the newer stuff.



Word!!!


----------



## Steve_Rogers (26 Feb 2008)

Get the CZ-75! You'll do fine with it, soldier!


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (26 Feb 2008)

Steve_Rogers said:
			
		

> Get the CZ-75! You'll do fine with it, soldier!



Do you own one or are you basing your comments on your FPS experience?


----------



## Loachman (26 Feb 2008)

Steve_Rogers said:
			
		

> Get the CZ-75! You'll do fine with it, soldier!



One of the quickest ways to get bounced out of here is to babble about things of which you know absolutely nothing.

And stop addressing everybody as "soldier". This is not a low-budget bad Hollywood war movie.


----------



## TN2IC (26 Feb 2008)

> You'll do fine with it, soldier!




Thanks kid...  :


----------



## redleafjumper (26 Feb 2008)

Jonh Browning's designs, which include the BHP and the 1911A1, are good choices - the CZ 75 though not single action, is a grandchild of the Browning designs and some features are shared. 9mm ammo is for the most part less expensive than .45 acp.  I am, however, partial to the Beretta 92F and the Glock designs.  I like the model 22 in .40 S&W - it is easy to shoot, reliable and reasonably priced.  Someone already mentioned the Sig Sauer 226 and that is an excellent pistol, if a bit more expesnive than some of the others.

One point to consider is - what do you want to use it for?  Are you looking for a double action (pulling the trigger moves the hammer back and releases it), or a single action (the hammer is cocked back already and pressing the trigger merely drops the hammer).  Some pistols S & W model 39/59 series are double for the first shot and single after that, some are double action only (the Glocks) and others are single action such as the BHP (GP 35) and the 1911A1.  

My suggestion is to check out a local club, try a few different types and see what you like.  Most pistol shooters are happy to let you try their firearms.  

Cheers,


----------



## TCBF (26 Feb 2008)

- There are modern DA versions of the GP-35.


----------



## Redeye (26 Feb 2008)

I own both Glock 17 and an an M&P in .40.  I love them both but I actually find myself enjoying the M&P more.  All it needs is Trijicon night sights like my Glock and I'd like it more.  I have a steady supply of cheap .40 so I use the M&P a lot more.

There's good deals to be had on both right now - Mil/LE pricing on Glocks is $637.00 plus tax and shipping for a 17 or 22 with Trijicons and two mags.  M&Ps are available for around $600 plus tax and shipping without night sights, but there's a $50USD rebate + two free mags available on an offer that Smith & Wesson keeps extending.  With interchangeable palm swells, I haven't heard of someone who doesn't like the feel of the M&P - unless they hate Tupperware guns in general.

Don't forget to pick up a Ruger MkIII or Buckmark or some other .22LR pistol to practice more with cheaply.  It costs a tenth of what either of those calibres cost to shoot.

You know, if you're interested in a Glock, I have a G17, with the Trijicons, five mags, and a holster, which I'm considering selling.  It's damned near brand new so I won't take too much less than the original sales price, but if you are interested, PM me.  (/plug)


----------



## Old Ranger (27 Feb 2008)

PM inbound


----------



## Red 6 (27 Feb 2008)

Patrick: Have you looked at the Sig Sauer P220? It's one of the best made semi auto pistols around. They're making them now with a variety of trigger packages. This is a very versatile pistol and even my son enjoyed shooting it. I carried one on duty for quite a few years and found it to be as reliable as they come. 

keep chargin', Mark


----------



## LordOsborne (27 Feb 2008)

Redleaf: I intend to use the pistol for the usual target shooting, but I am also interested in eventually getting into IDPA or IPSC after having been bitten by the CFSAC bug last year. I could also excuse it away as a home defence weapon, but I honestly doubt i'd ever have to use it that way in my lifetime - although it would be comforting to have.

I like SA pistols, but that's probably because I've spent so much time with the BHP. I know there are merits and detractions to each type of action (SA, SA/DA, DAO, Safe Action), and also to the different safety features out there (manual safety vs decocker as an example). Although i'd have to try each one out to be sure, I like the idea of the CZ's SA/DA action and manual safety, since it's similar enough to the BHP. I don't think i'd spring for a DAO pistol since i do like the lighter SA trigger pull. 

Red6: I have not fired the SigP220. I think i saw a brochure with a picture of the trigger mech, but I didn't follow up by reading more about it. Although I do like both the look and the feel of the Sig, I don't really like the placement of the slide lock. I like a beefier Browning or USP style lever since it's easier for my fairly large hands to use.


----------



## Redeye (27 Feb 2008)

If you're looking at Glocks and IPSC/IDPA, depending on what class you want to be in a compensated model might not be what you want.  It sounds like you'll need to spend some time in a good gun shop trying out different pistols until you find what you want.  I loved Glocks - and they are great pistols, but I love my M&P more because I found with the small size palm swell it's perfect.  There's some things I don't like (like the magazine disconnect safety) but it's still a good piece of kit.


----------



## LordOsborne (28 Feb 2008)

Redeye: I agree, I don't like the magazine safety on the M&P either. It's one of the things I don't like about the Browning as well. I'll be sure to try out both versions of Glocks before I render my decision. I've read good things about CZ pistols at IDPA and IPSC matches, so I think the pistol has good value for different applications. I'm moving to Vancouver shortly so I'll be sure to hit up some of the local vendors and ranges to try some different pistols.


----------



## KevinB (28 Feb 2008)

FYI -- you can get the M&P's w/o the mag safety 

and you can ditch the BHP mag safety.


----------



## SteveB (28 Feb 2008)

I own a BHP and used to have a Sig226.  Though I have a lifetime supply of 9mm brass and reload in 9mm, I truly love the Sig 220 in 45.  I can't take a Sig 228 home from the US so my favourite Sig 9mm is now denied by my ever caring federal government.  I bought the BHP because I was hot to compete at CFSAC, naturally, I spent the next seven years competing in service rifle.  My biggest regret is not spending a little more and owning a Sig fleet.  I really liked the Glock 19 and to a lesser extent the 17 but, I recently put a few hundred rounds through a M&P and I am shocked to admit this Smith does it for me over the Glocks.  So much of it comes down to the way the grip fits your hand that you really need to try them yourself.  I love the Sig 228 and 220 because of the way my hand fits around them.  I fully admit that the Glock family, outside the 20 are great but, the Sigs are a better fit for me.  (I feel a little hard done by the fact that my palm has expensive tastes).  Don't worry too much about paying a few hundred bucks more for the right pistol.  You'll end up spending many hundreds on ammo anyway, even if the CF supplies some of it.  I reload lead cast bullets in free brass with bulk purchased powder and, ammo costs far out weigh the initial price of the gun.  Go for what you really want, and have no regrets.

Steve


----------



## mudgunner49 (28 Feb 2008)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> Redeye: I agree, *I don't like the magazine safety on the M&P either. It's one of the things I don't like about the Browning as well. * I'll be sure to try out both versions of Glocks before I render my decision. I've read good things about CZ pistols at IDPA and IPSC matches, so I think the pistol has good value for different applications. I'm moving to Vancouver shortly so I'll be sure to hit up some of the local vendors and ranges to try some different pistols.



I removed the magazine disconnector from both of my M&P's in about 12 minutes (+/-) per pistol, and the same can be done with the Browning in a bit more time - mine took me about 20 minutes, only because I'm a bit fumble-fingered with small parts.

If you are come through Northern Ontario on your trip to British California stop by and you can try a vast variety of various hand-cannons at mi casa...


blake


----------



## Redeye (28 Feb 2008)

I-6 - everywhere seems to have only the mag safety versions (and the silly internal lock too!) but I suppose you could get one special ordered.  I got mine from CanadaAmmo.com because the price was good and I thought the window was closing on the M&P rebate offer (which S&W has just extended again!) so I didn't bother with special ordering.  It's a small nuisance for competitive shoots, but not the end of the world.  Besides, with the M&P it fits my hand a little better so I can drop mags without having to rotate my wrist, with the Glock I had to sort of "reach" for the mag release and ended up sweeping a bit, not good in a match!  I was going to put a Lone Wolf extended mag release on it, but the M&P seems to have fixed the issue anyhow.


----------



## LordOsborne (28 Feb 2008)

mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> I removed the magazine disconnector from both of my M&P's in about 12 minutes (+/-) per pistol, and the same can be done with the Browning in a bit more time - mine took me about 20 minutes, only because I'm a bit fumble-fingered with small parts.
> 
> If you are come through Northern Ontario on your trip to British California stop by and you can try a vast variety of various hand-cannons at mi casa...
> 
> ...



How does one go about disengaging the mag safety?  and thanks for the offer, mudgunner


----------



## TCBF (28 Feb 2008)

- If you have disengaged anything that was designed into the firearm for safety, and your firearm is later associated with an injury or a fatality, your lawyers will have much more work to do.


----------



## mudgunner49 (28 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - If you have disengaged anything that was designed into the firearm for safety, and your firearm is later associated with an injury or a fatality, your lawyers will have much more work to do.



Keep you finger off the go switch unless you're trying to shoot something/somebody...   This same pistol comes in a version with the mag disconnector "uninstalled" from the factory, so where is the issue??

Patrick - one of my best friends (and, incidentally, my DCO) is the armourer for the local PD.  They issue M&P, he has the course from Smith, and knows the pistol well, however I removed it on my own with assistance from the man himself at Burwell Gunsmithing via his instructions found here: http://www.burwellgunsmithing.com/M&P2.htm

Works like a charm and with the addition of a factory .357 Sig barrel, a factory 9mm barrel and some 9mm mags, I now have 3 calibers in one pistol.  Just be prepared for sticker shock if you intend to buy .357 Sig ammo (yikes!!)...


----------



## Red 6 (29 Feb 2008)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> Red6: I have not fired the SigP220. I think i saw a brochure with a picture of the trigger mech, but I didn't follow up by reading more about it. Although I do like both the look and the feel of the Sig, I don't really like the placement of the slide lock. I like a beefier Browning or USP style lever since it's easier for my fairly large hands to use.



Patrick: I've got some meathooks and haven't ever had any trouble with the P220 slide lock. But I was handling a P229 on Wednesday and couldn't get the darned slide lock to engage. I had to hand the pistol to a guy with smaller digits! 

Cheers,
Mark


----------



## LordOsborne (29 Feb 2008)

Red 6 said:
			
		

> Patrick: I've got some meathooks and haven't ever had any trouble with the P220 slide lock. But I was handling a P229 on Wednesday and couldn't get the darned slide lock to engage. I had to hand the pistol to a guy with smaller digits!
> 
> Cheers,
> Mark



That's  more or less how things go for me as well. I've shot the Sig Mosquito and I've handled a Navy P225, and my thumb confuses the decocker with the slide lock because that's where my muscle memory has understood the slide lock to be. I'm sure repetitive shooting would correct this. 

Mudgunner: I looked at the website link you posted. Good info for sure in case I decide to go M&P.


----------



## mudgunner49 (29 Feb 2008)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> That's  more or less how things go for me as well. I've shot the Sig Mosquito and I've handled a Navy P225, and my thumb confuses the decocker with the slide lock because that's where my muscle memory has understood the slide lock to be. I'm sure repetitive shooting would correct this.
> 
> Mudgunner: I looked at the website link you posted. Good info for sure *in case I decide to go M&P.*




You know you *waaaant* to....


----------



## medaid (29 Feb 2008)

I know I want to M&P is a beautiful weapon...


----------



## LordOsborne (29 Feb 2008)

It's definately growing on me  ;D  I read a little piece on Military Morons about a sight replacement kit for the M&P and it looked pretty nice.

http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/pistols.html


----------



## LordOsborne (2 Mar 2008)

I do have another question though: what's the trigger pull like on a Glock / M&P compared to, say, a SA pistol like the BHP or 1911? I know it probably boils down to personal preference, but is it arguably better to have SA/DA instead of a striker-fired design?


----------



## Redeye (2 Mar 2008)

Trigger pull is a little firmer on an M&P or a Glock - but both can be worked on.  As for "better" or "worse" it's a personal preference thing.  I find the M&P's pull to be fine, and didn't have an issue with that of a Glock either!


----------



## medaid (2 Mar 2008)

I found the Glock 22TNS easier to shoot then the BHP. I don't know that was just me


----------



## mudgunner49 (4 Mar 2008)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> I do have another question though: what's the trigger pull like on a Glock / M&P compared to, say, a SA pistol like the BHP or 1911? I know it probably boils down to personal preference, but is it arguably better to have SA/DA instead of a striker-fired design?



It's very hard to compare a striker-fired pistol like the Glock/M&P to the classic single-action pistol variants like the 1911/BHP.  Even comparison of the Browning and the 1911 is (or can be) quite subjective, as the actions are quite different and while it is possible to get a fairly nice trigger pull on the BHP, the 1911 is quite possibly the best extant when properly set up and far easier to get a decent trigger pull on than the Browning.

It has been stated by others far sharper than myself that "for those willing to dedicate themselves to the platform and it's additional eccenticities (initial set-up, more intensive maintenance, etc...) the 1911 platform delivers like no other", and regarding speed of deployment and "shootability" I find this very hard to argue with.  

This is especially true when you have someone whose only exposure to handguns has been the DA-only pistols mandated by the Police Act of the various provinces and territories.  Most police officers have to be lumped under the categoriy of NDP's (non-dedicated personnel) when it comes to small arms employment and deployment (I'm generalizing here, OK?), and when I show at the range wearing a 1911 or a Browning I usually get the "Wow, that's a really old pistol" from somebody - at least until they watch a plate rack get cleaned or actually fire it themselves.  

I generally explain it thusly --- the *1911 or Browning is a great gunfighting pistol*, the *DA-only * are great *"threat management"* pistols  -  not that I would chose to go to a gunfight with just a pistol, but you run what you brung... 

Try as many different platforms as you can and *pick what works best for you * - disregard the elitists who tell you things like "anything other than SIG sucks" or "handgun development ended when the Glock came along" - that sort of thing.  In autoloaders I've had Colt (and various other 1911 patterns), Browning, SIG, Glock, S&W (1st, 2nd, 3rd Gen and M&P), Taurus, Star, Walther. CZ and probably some stuff that I can't remember, but I keep coming back to the Browning and the Glock (though I have been flirting shamelessly for the past 10 months with the M&P, and do feel that the Glock will be getting abandoned ;D).

Good luck...


blake


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Mar 2008)

When you try the trigger on some of the Police DAO handguns, you can understand why they dislike shooting, the trigger pulls are terrible.


----------



## mudgunner49 (4 Mar 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> When you try the trigger on some of the Police DAO handguns, you can understand why they dislike shooting, the trigger pulls are terrible.



I will say it again:

1911/BHP = gunfighter's pistol; DA-only = threat management pistol.

I would imagine that there are more than a few miscreants out there today who are alive simply because a cop was carrying a DA pistol and not a 1911 with a 4# trigger and thumb safety...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Mar 2008)

But cocked and locked is evil and DANGEROUS according the experts that have only used DAO  :

If you have a malfunctioning gun or a poorly designed or poor quality holster, then cocked and locked might be dangerous, I just read on one forum where a guy found that his holster was causing his 1911 extended safety to disengage.

I can't say that the trigger safety on either the Glock or the M&P fills me full of confidence.


----------



## LordOsborne (4 Mar 2008)

I do like the fact that the 1911 has both a grip saftey and a manual safety. I'm not a fan of the issue safety on the BHP due to its size, although i think the BHP MkIII has a larger, more ergonomic safety.

Something about a pistol not actually having a button or switch i can set to "safe" makes me personally doubt how safe it is, although i know in reality what systems are there. It'd take some getting used to for me.


----------



## Redeye (4 Mar 2008)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> I do like the fact that the 1911 has both a grip saftey and a manual safety. I'm not a fan of the issue safety on the BHP due to its size, although i think the BHP MkIII has a larger, more ergonomic safety.
> 
> Something about a pistol not actually having a button or switch i can set to "safe" makes me personally doubt how safe it is, although i know in reality what systems are there. It'd take some getting used to for me.



Col Jeff Cooper quotes a Russian translator in Art of the Rifle which says it best (remember, think Russian accent) - "Eez gon.  Eez not safe."  Relying on a mechanical safety is ridiculous - the best safety is not touching the trigger until you are planning to fire.  In a proper holster with a mechanically sound firearm there's nothing to worry about, even carrying cocked and locked.  In its paddle holster I'd never worry about carrying around my M&P - if only the law in this country allowed it...


----------



## mudgunner49 (4 Mar 2008)

If you asked either of my boys (11 & 14) where the safety on any firearm was, they'd point to their own forehead and state "Right in here, Sir..." 8)

It does me proud to have raised young men like that.


blake


----------



## LordOsborne (4 Mar 2008)

Lol - seen, and point taken.


----------



## Old Ranger (4 Mar 2008)

mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> If you asked either of my boys (11 & 14) where the safety on any firearm was, they'd point to their own forehead and state "Right in here, Sir..." 8)
> 
> It does me proud to have raised young men like that.
> 
> ...



Well Done!
I hope my youngin will be the same


----------



## KevinB (8 Mar 2008)

FYI I have my grip safties on my 1911's filed to the a point it takes less than 1mm of movement to have it disengage, a few unit pistols I know have had them pinned or taped off.

  I've carried Glocks, BHP's, 1911's, Sig's and I am sure some other handguns (oh yeah that Makarov for a bit as a BUG) all hot, and I've not seen an instance where the addition or lack of a safety has ever caused an issue with personnel using the weapon properly.


----------



## mudgunner49 (9 Mar 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> FYI I have my grip safties on my 1911's filed to the a point it takes less than 1mm of movement to have it disengage, a few unit pistols I know have had them pinned or taped off.
> 
> I've carried Glocks, BHP's, 1911's, Sig's and I am sure some other handguns (oh yeah that Makarov for a bit as a BUG) all hot, and I've not seen an instance where the addition or lack of a safety has ever caused an issue with personnel using the weapon properly.




Thus endeth the lesson - keep your booger picker off the bang-switch until you want it to do what it was designed for...


blake


----------

