# CEOTP (Continuing Ed Officer Trg Plan) 2003-2018 [Merged]



## ringo_mountbatten

I was just wondering if anybody had any info on the CEOTP entry plan that isn‘t otherwise posted on the recruiting website.  I am going to make a trip to the recruiting centre soon, but any info I can have before hand would be appreciated. Thanks for any help.


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## y2kroachman

How challenging is it to get in CEOTP? I wanted to try to get in MARS. Anyone have insight on this program. I checked DND sites also. I have pretty good high school grades(high 80s).

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!


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## Zoomie

New CANFORGEN that directs CFRC to recruit non-degreed Officer applicants for unspecified MOSID's:

================================================== =====

FM NDHQ OTTAWA//ADM(HR-MIL)//
TO CANFORGEN
BT
UNCLAS CANFORGEN 156/05 ADM(HR-MIL)076
SIC WAS
BILINGUAL MESSAGE / MESSAGE BILINGUE
SUBJECT: CONTINUING EDUCATION OFFICER TRAINING PLAN - (CEOTP)
REFS: A. ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 01/00
B. MND 10 (REVISED 16 AUGUST 2005)
C. ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 09/05 CONTINUING EDUCATION OFFICER
TRAINING PLAN
1. THE ADM(HR-MIL) IS PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE INTRODUCTION OF A NEW
OFFICER PRODUCTION PLAN THAT WILL ASSIST IN FORCE EXPANSION AND THE
ALLEVIATION OF OFFICER SHORTAGES IN SOME OCCUPATIONS
2. ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 09/05 CONTINUING EDUCATION OFFICER
TRAINING PLAN (CEOTP), WILL BE IN EFFECT ON 12 OCTOBER 2005. THIS
INSTRUCTION SUPERSEDES REF A, AND APPLIES TO CIVILIAN CANDIDATES FOR
THE CF, REG F NCM, AND MEMBERS OF THE P RES THROUGH COMPONENT
TRANSFER



PAGE 2 RCCPJAW4005 UNCLAS CANFORGEN 156/05
3. THE CEOTP PROVIDES AN OFFICER ENROLMENT/TRANSFER PLAN FOR
CANDIDATES WHO, WHILE OTHERWISE SUITABLE FOR SERVICE AS OFFICERS IN
THE CF, DO NOT POSSESS A UNIVERSITY DEGREE. REF B HAS BEEN REVISED
TO PERMIT THE COMMISSIONING OF OFFICERS WITHOUT A DEGREE PROVIDED
THAT THEY COMPLETE A DEGREE WITHIN THEIR INITIAL ENGAGEMENT
4. THIS PROGRAM PROVIDES FOR STRONG CF SUPPORT FOR CANDIDATES TO
ACHIEVE A DEGREE WITHIN THE REQUISITE TIME. THE CANADIAN DEFENCE
ACADEMY (CDA) WILL WORK WITH EACH CANDIDATE TO DEVELOP AN ACHIEVABLE
INDIVIDUAL LEARNING PLAN (ILP), WILL PROVIDE OVERSIGHT OF ACADEMIC
PROGRAMS, AND WILL ACT AS ACADEMIC ADVISOR TO ALL CANDIDATES.
DIRECTOR GENERAL MILITARY CARREER (DGMC) WILL PROVIDE THE PROGRAM
MANAGEMENT ASPECTS OF THE CEOTP. THIS IS A SHARED RESPONSIBILITY OF
THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER
5. CF MEMBERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO FAMILIARIZE THEMSELVES
WITH REF C
6. [REMOVED FOR PERSEC ISSUES]
END OF ENGLISH TEXT / LE TEXTE FRANCAIS SUIT
OBJET: PROGRAMME DE FORMATION DES OFFICIERS - EDUCATION PERMANENTE
(PFOEP)



PAGE 3 RCCPJAW4005 UNCLAS CANFORGEN 156/05
REFS: A. INSTRUCTION DU SMA(RH-MIL) 01/00
B. MDN 10 (REVISE LE 16 AOUT 2005)
C. INSTRUCTION DU SMA(RH-MIL) 09/05 PROGRAMME DE FORMATION DES
OFFICIERS - EDUCATION PERMANENTE
1. LE SMA(RH-MIL) A LE PLAISIR D ANNONCER L INTRODUCTION D UN
NOUVEAU PLAN DE PRODUCTION D OFFICIERS. CE PLAN AIDERA A
L EXPANSION DES FC ET TENTERA D ATTENUER L INSUFFISANCE D OFFICIERS
DANS CERTAINES OCCUPATIONS
2. L INSTRUCTION 09/05 DU SMA(RH-MIL) PROGRAMME DE FORMATION DES
OFFICIERS - EDUCATION PERMANENTE (PFOEP) ENTRERA EN VIGEUR LE 12
OCTOBRE 2005. CETTE INSTRUCTION ANNULE LA REF A. ELLE S APPLIQUE
AUX CANDIDATS CIVILS QUI VEULENT S ENROLER DANS LES FC AINSI QU AUX
MR DE LA FORCE REGULIERE ET LES MEMBRES DE LA PREMIERE RESERVE
(P RES) VIA UNE MUTATION ENTRE ELEMENTS
3. LE PFOEP EST UN PLAN D ENROLEMENT/MUTATION A L INTENTION DES
CANDIDATS QUI SONT EN TOUS POINTS QUALIFIES POUR LE SERVICE EN TANT
QU OFFICIERS, MAIS NE POSSEDENT PAS UN DIPLOME UNIVERSITAIRE. LA
REFERENCE B A ETE MODIFIEE AFIN DE PERMETTRE LA NOMINATION DES
OFFICIERS SANS DIPLOME UNIVERSITAIRE, A CONDITION QU ILS COMPLETENT
CE DIPLOME A L INTERIEUR DE LEUR PERIODE INITIALE D ENGAGEMENT



PAGE 4 RCCPJAW4005 UNCLAS CANFORGEN 156/05
4. CE PLAN FOURNIT UN EXCELLENT SOUTIEN AUX CANDIDATS AFIN QU ILS
TERMINENT LEUR DIPLOME DANS LE TEMPS REQUIS. L ACADEMIE CANADIENNE
DE LA DEFENSE (ACD) AIDERA CHAQUE CANDIDAT A DEFINIR UN PROGRAMME
REALISTE D ENSEIGNEMENT INDIVIDUEL (PEI), SE CHARGERA DE SURVEILLER
LES PROGRAMMES ACADEMIQUES, ET ASSUMERA LE ROLE D AVISEUR ACADEMIQUE
AUPRES DE TOUS LES CANDIDATS DU PFOEP. LE DIRECTEUR GENERAL
CARRIERES MILITAIRES (DGCM) ASSUMERA LA GERANCE ADMINISTRATIVE DU
PFOEP. IL SAGIT D UNE RESPONSABILITE PARTAGEE ENTRE LA CHAINE DE
COMMANDEMENT ET LE MEMBRE
5. ON ENCOURAGE LES MEMBRES DES FC A PRENDRE CONNAISSANCE DE LA REF

6. [REMOVED FOR PERSEC ISSUES]


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## kincanucks

The two most prominent occupations are Pilot and MARS with limited positions in Combat Arms, ANAV, AEC and LOG.  There are not a lot of positions for any of the occupations so speed is of the essence here.  Remember you still have to meet the educational requirements, which are Gr 12 advanced courses that can get you into a university degree programme.


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## mdh

Kincanucks

Wonder if you had any sense in what's behind the restoration of this program? Has there been a shortage of University grads going DEO - or is this just a way to open up the talent pool?

cheers, mdh


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## kincanucks

It just makes sense.  We are having problems attracting suitable DEO applicants so why not give the university eligible applicants who can't afford to go to university right now the oportunity to get an occupation that they really want and want now.


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## alan_li_13

> PAGE 2 RCCPJAW4005 UNCLAS CANFORGEN 156/05
> 3. THE CEOTP PROVIDES AN OFFICER ENROLMENT/TRANSFER PLAN FOR
> CANDIDATES WHO, WHILE OTHERWISE SUITABLE FOR SERVICE AS OFFICERS IN
> THE CF, DO NOT POSSESS A UNIVERSITY DEGREE. REF B HAS BEEN REVISED
> TO PERMIT THE COMMISSIONING OF OFFICERS WITHOUT A DEGREE PROVIDED
> THAT THEY COMPLETE A DEGREE WITHIN THEIR INITIAL ENGAGEMENT


what is the difference between this and ROTP? I don't quite understand. Is this to say that if I graduated highschool with the required courses, I can be commissioned and then start my way to a degree?


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## kincanucks

aspiring officer said:
			
		

> what is the difference between this and ROTP? I don't quite understand. Is this to say that if I graduated highschool with the required courses, I can be commissioned and then start my way to a degree?



Wow.  With ROTP you go to school for four years right from the start and with this entry program you learn your job first then work on your degree within your initial engagement.  Clear as mud?


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## WannaBeFlyer

_Remember you still have to meet the educational requirements, which are Gr 12 advanced courses that can get you into a university degree programme._

Yep, found that out this morning. I have been going to University part time for a couple of years now while completing my Private Pilot's License hoping that CEOTP would open again or I might qualify for ROTP. I was not eligible because I was accepted to a civie U as a mature student. *Sigh*

BTW, I have never seen the CFRC so busy (yes I've been there a few times) and each person was there for the CEOTP for Pilots. Some interesting future Officers to say the least! SO - if you are qualified - DON'T WAIT!!!!! As Kincanucks mentioned - spots are limited and some people have been waiting years for this program to re-open.

Good luck to all those who are eligible!!

Thanks Zoomie and Kincanucks for all of the information you have provided through both this posting and all of your recruiting / 032 posts! Your information was truly invaluable.


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## Bograt

Silly Question Alert

Okay, in the example of a 32U. A member would be required to get a four year degree, 6 OPMEs, SLT plus get through flight training, all within the 9 year contract? Are you sure the member needs to get his wings, he must already have a cape.


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## sigpig

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Wow.  With ROTP you go to school for four years right from the start and with this entry program you learn your job first then work on your degree within your initial engagement.  Clear as mud?



I've been out for awhile so what I can't remember has probably changed anyway. Is an ie for officers 9 years? If so, that would mean while you are doing your normal job - courses, ex's, teaching, UN tours, OPDP's (still do those?), whatever replaced the FOE's, etc, that you would have to complete a 3 or four year degree in your 'spare time.'  

Is there a restriction on what degree you can pursue? As someone who entered in the old OCTP (that has been gone for awhile I believe?) I'm glad to see this come in. Although it will be interesting to see how it works in practice.


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## WannaBeFlyer

Bograt, that was a good laugh. I like the marquee.

_Is there a restriction on what degree you can pursue?_

In the case of Pilot, no. Any BA will do. Some might help you more than others though. 

I was sitting in the chair at the CFRC while it was being explained to me and realized (as Bograt mentioned) that I might have to clone myself in addition to upgrading my Gr.12's. Also, I wasn't sure how I felt about being an Officer Cadet for a long time. But I still I wish I had a shot...

Perhaps Kincanucks may be able to shed some light on how the Degree fits in with all of the training & courses that a Pilot must complete. I know my recruiter was not sure about this point when I asked.


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## Matt_Fisher

Is there any preference given to an applicant that already has completed a portion of their post-secondary education as opposed to an equally qualified candidate with the exception that they have not taken any post-secondary courses towards a degree?


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## WannaBeFlyer

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Is there any preference given to an applicant that already has completed a portion of their post-secondary education as opposed to an equally qualified candidate with the exception that they have not taken any post-secondary courses towards a degree?



IF you have competitive grades in your Gr.12 subjects then yes. If not - no. (From what I was told this morning). As I mentioned, I am a part time University student with significant flight training under my belt and I don't qualify for CEOTP since my Gr.12 marks are not that great. I am doing really well in University, had a 92 average in College but, it does not matter. (You may not be applying for Pilot but I just wanted to give a scenario.) I was told that it is the highschool marks that matter and that you must be   UNCONDITIONALLY accepted or be able to be unconditionally accepted to university. Mature students, Special Students etc. do not qualify. I am a mature student so I don't qualify.

BUT I COULD BE WRONG. This is what I was told this a.m. 

I'm hoping Kincanucks will add to this thread for everybody. He may be able to add to or correct what I have posted on the details of CEOTP. I am just adding what I was told during my session this morning. Your best bet is to talk to a Recruiter about your situation. Don't let my situation scare you from inquiring or applying...


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## Inch

Bograt said:
			
		

> Silly Question Alert
> 
> Okay, in the example of a 32U. A member would be required to get a four year degree, 6 OPMEs, SLT plus get through flight training, all within the 9 year contract? Are you sure the member needs to get his wings, he must already have a cape.



A 3 year degree will suffice, 4 of the 6 OPMEs are university level courses and will count towards that degree. I was CEOTP, I have completed flight training, SLT, 2/3 of my degree and 4 of 6 OPMEs in 6 years. Plus 8 months of that was spent in Sault College completing my Aviation Technology Diploma, so it's entirely possible. You just have to manage your time, instead of screwing around while waiting for Moose Jaw, put your time to good use and get the majority, if not all, of your degree out of the way.


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## kincanucks

Inch said:
			
		

> A 3 year degree will suffice, 4 of the 6 OPMEs are university level courses and will count towards that degree. I was CEOTP, I have completed flight training, SLT, 2/3 of my degree and 4 of 6 OPMEs in 6 years. Plus 8 months of that was spent in Sault College completing my Aviation Technology Diploma, so it's entirely possible. You just have to manage your time, instead of screwing around while waiting for Moose Jaw, put your time to good use and get the majority, if not all, of your degree out of the way.



In addition to this excellent post, I would like to add that if you become a fully trained pilot and have made a _substantial _ effort toward the completion of your basket weaving, sorry music, degree I think they may rather hold on to a pilot then turf them for not finishing their degree in their initial engagement.  Just a thought.


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## Inch

kincanucks said:
			
		

> In addition to this excellent post, I would like to add that if you become a fully trained pilot and have made a _substantial _ effort toward the completion of your basket weaving, sorry music, degree I think they may rather hold on to a pilot then turf them for not finishing their degree in their initial engagement.   Just a thought.



You're not that far off base, I signed my IE last year. With the 7 years restricted release, they won't let you go when you hit the 9 year mark. It took me 5 years to get trained, and once you get your wings you owe 7 years, so do the math. They most likely will not release you at the 9 year mark if you have yet to complete your degree.


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## Bograt

Inch said:
			
		

> A 3 year degree will suffice, 4 of the 6 OPMEs are university level courses and will count towards that degree. I was CEOTP, I have completed flight training, SLT, 2/3 of my degree and 4 of 6 OPMEs in 6 years. Plus 8 months of that was spent in Sault College completing my Aviation Technology Diploma, so it's entirely possible. You just have to manage your time, instead of screwing around while waiting for Moose Jaw, put your time to good use and get the majority, if not all, of your degree out of the way.



Always knew you had a cape.

You going to the mess diner on the 4th?


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## Inch

Bograt said:
			
		

> Always knew you had a cape.
> 
> You going to the mess diner on the 4th?



Ha!

I'm SDO and the last thing I want to be around is a bunch of guys that are into the sauce when I have to stay sober, so probably not unless I can find a sub for the night.


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## mbhabfan

haven't been on in awhile...but here goes.  I am 32 and in June passed the cfat, physical, medical, and interviewing.  I was given an offer for AVN and turned it down.  I was initially trying for pilot at that time but did not meet the degree requirements.  My question is having turned down the AVN tech offer, are my chances even less now?  Pilot is what I have been wanting just didn't seem like it was going to work out.


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## kincanucks

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> haven't been on in awhile...but here goes.   I am 32 and in June passed the cfat, physical, medical, and interviewing.   I was given an offer for AVN and turned it down.   I was initially trying for pilot at that time but did not meet the degree requirements.   My question is having turned down the AVN tech offer, are my chances even less now?   Pilot is what I have been wanting just didn't seem like it was going to work out.



If AVN was your first choice then you have to wait until after Dec before they will reopen your file.  The turning down of an offer doesn't reflect well upon your motivation but if you excel in other areas it can be overlooked.  Good Luck.


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## Bograt

Mhabfan,

It won't have any effect. Best thing to do is go to the CFRS and arrange a meeting with the Captain. Give it a shot and best of luck.

Inch,

I was wanting to go, but don't have a date (wife will be in Terra Nova). You know if the other Lts are going? Drinking alone is one of those boxes in the social worker questionnaire one does not what to check.


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## mbhabfan

I had chosen pilot as my first choice on my application, and AVN as second.  They would not accept the pilot as first choice due to the lack of degree.


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## kincanucks

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> I had chosen pilot as my first choice on my application, and AVN as second.   They would not accept the pilot as first choice due to the lack of degree.



Therefore, AVN was your first choice.  Discuss it with your CFRC/D.


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## mbhabfan

can anyone answer if the ceotp is filled for pilot this time around? Also, I have been chosen for a second interview for pilot this time, does everyone make the interview stage or do they screen some out right off the bat?  Are the ceotp pilot positions for this coming January or when?  Thanks.


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## mbhabfan

BUMP.......anyone?


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## CdnArtyWife

I had crap marks in Gr. 12, but got into University right after grad anyway...so they were good enough to be accepted to civie U...I had to leave civie U for financial reasons...I have 7 credits to my name. But that was 7 years ago. 

I have an interest in CEOTP. But if everything rides on the CF's interpretation of my marks I'm phuct. I can see how one can not qualify if accepted to university as a "mature student", but I had been accepted to university (once upon a time) based on my grade 12 marks.

Here's hoping I can get in...I would be interested in Combat arms...I like the Arty world...but I don't believe in Husband and Wife in the same chain of command so I may have to rethink things.


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## spoon man

I'm in first year engineering, passed ASC for pilot and ANAV last April, and have most training completed for Private Pilot Licence. 

I'm on a Co-op program, every 4 months I do a work term placement which is more than enough to pay for the next semester of school; so paying for my degree isn't really a problem (which seems to be advantage of CEOTP).

With CEOTP I'm going to have to get a degree sometime, so is it better for me to just stay in school and keep dreaming till I'm done?


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## Zoomie

spoon man said:
			
		

> With CEOTP I'm going to have to get a degree sometime, so is it better for me to just stay in school and keep dreaming till I'm done?



Yes that is a good plan - get your degree now, full time.  Doing it later via correspondence will be a pain.


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## Former291er

Hey guys, Just found this site, Its pretty cool. To introduce myself, My name is Rob I was In Comms Rsch From Jan 01 to Jan 04 got out after my initial contract (really bad idea for anyone thinking on getting out, You have it good, lol). Now I am Joining again under the CEOTP option as either a pilot or an air traffic controller. Can't wait to get back in and start making some real money again, lol. So who else out there made the same mistake as me? And what finally changed your mind to get back in?
Rob


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## Darkage

Hi,

I just have a quick question... If I get into the CEOTP program, when I'll get my degree, will my pay be the one the CEOTP Montly Pay Rates Table ? I'm not quite sure, so if anybody knows about it, that would be really helpful

Ref: http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/other/RegularForcePay.pdf

Thanks...


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## kincanucks

Darkage said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I just have a quick question... If I get into the CEOTP program, when I'll get my degree, will my pay be the one the CEOTP Montly Pay Rates Table ? I'm not quite sure, so if anybody knows about it, that would be really helpful
> 
> Ref: http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/other/RegularForcePay.pdf
> 
> Thanks...



You will continue to be paid under the entry plan that you enrolled under unless you transfer to another occupation that has a seperate pay table such as Pilot.


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## mbhabfan

good luck I asked the same type of question a week ago, no intelligent answer.  When I ask at the recruiting office I get "wait until the offer comes"  yeah whatever.....makes a guy wonder why they won't divulge such simple information.


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## WannaBeFlyer

Sorry but get used to hearing just that - "wait until the offer comes" and the more frequently used "I don't know."

Good luck.


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## Darkage

kincanucks said:
			
		

> You will continue to be paid under the entry plan that you enrolled under unless you transfer to another occupation that has a seperate pay table such as Pilot.



thanks for the quick reply


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## mbhabfan

You will continue to be paid under the entry plan that you enrolled under unless you transfer to another occupation that has a seperate pay table such as Pilot.

so can anyone answer what a CEOTP pilot salary will be?

Seems to be some sort of a secret, nobody seems to know, or be willing to say the salary or the time period for being an officer cadet as a CEOTP pilot applicant.


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## kincanucks

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> You will continue to be paid under the entry plan that you enrolled under unless you transfer to another occupation that has a seperate pay table such as Pilot.
> 
> so can anyone answer what a CEOTP pilot salary will be?
> 
> Seems to be some sort of a secret, nobody seems to know, or be willing to say the salary or the time period for being an officer cadet as a CEOTP pilot applicant.



As an OCdt you are paid under the CEOTP pay scale and once you are promoted to 2Lt you will be paid under the DEO Pilot pay scale.

HH


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## WannaBeFlyer

kincanucks said:
			
		

> As an OCdt you are paid under the CEOTP pay scale and once you are promoted to 2Lt you will be paid under the DEO Pilot pay scale.
> 
> HH



Sorry but my MCC was not able to tell me when you are promoted to 2ndLT. With ROTP, this happens after BOTC. When does it happen for CEOTP? I'm out of the running for personal reasons but this one of many questions that went unanswered. Maybe someone can provide the CEOTP'ers with that info...

thanks.


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## mbhabfan

also which one is the ceotp pay scale if you don't mind me asking?


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## kincanucks

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> also which one is the ceotp pay scale if you don't mind me asking?



For crying out loud! That would be the second one down. Below ROTP and above DEO.  And the DEO Pilot, before you ask, is the second one from the bottom.

http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/other/RegularForcePay.pdf


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## kincanucks

MikeG said:
			
		

> Sorry but my MCC was not able to tell me when you are promoted to 2ndLT. With ROTP, this happens after BOTC. When does it happen for CEOTP? I'm out of the running for personal reasons but this one of many questions that went unanswered. Maybe someone can provide the CEOTP'ers with that info...
> 
> thanks.



Good question and I have no idea.  I am sure a Pilot could chime in on that one.


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## mbhabfan

kincanucks I apoligize for what seems like a tedious post to you but the only payscale I could find and the only one that has been posted on here lately when I ask does NOT show the CEOTP paragraphs.  Thanks for the information though.


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## mbhabfan

kincanucks again I am sorry to bother you but I just wanted it known that I called and asked the exact same question to my clerk both by email and phone and she said I would have to wait for the offer for that information.  I understand you are a recruiter and some of these questions seem boring to you but for me it is my future finances.  In the same breath I feel that I will be accepting any salary to fulfill my dream of being a pilot in the CF however I do feel it is a simple enough question for the recruiting centre to answer.  Also pulling from the question by MikeG, how is it that nobody seems to know when a CEOTP pilot will be promoted past officer cadet.  I know it shouldn't be that hard to find out, but it seems to be.


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## double0three

I hope this is what you guys are looking for



> The starting salary for a Pilot Trainee is $39,000* once you complete your 12-week Basic Officer Training in St-Jean, Québec. From there, your salary could jump to $60,000, even $90,000 once you become a Captain within a few short years. And there’s special bonus pay – aircrew allowance, and for field operations. (*Salaries will vary for re-enrollees or CF members who are MOC-qualified or MOC-unqualified.)



http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/benefits/wages_e.aspx


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## Zoomie

CEOTP pilot candidates remain Officer Cadets until they graduate advanced flight training - whereupon they will be insta-promoted to 2Lt and Lt all in one fell swoop.  I joined the CF in Oct 1999 and graduated  advanced flight training in Jan, 2004.  I did not attend RMC during this period of time, that is how it takes to train a CF pilot.

So... You will be an OCdt for a long time - it pays to have your degree before applying.  CEOTP was initially designed for 18 year old high school graduates who would think that $20,000/year was lots of money.  This plan does not help the single income family - you will be able to get by, just don't think about buying a boat in the near future.


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## mbhabfan

Zoomie, thanks very much that is the exact type of answer I was looking for.  Now can I ask you, do you not agree that this simple tidbit of information should be readily available from my recruiting office?  My medical is cleared, interview done should be heading out to asc in the next couple of weeks and still have trouble getting answers to what I feel are simple questions.


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## kincanucks

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> kincanucks again I am sorry to bother you but I just wanted it known that I called and asked the exact same question to my clerk both by email and phone and she said I would have to wait for the offer for that information.  I understand you are a recruiter and some of these questions seem boring to you but for me it is my future finances.  In the same breath I feel that I will be accepting any salary to fulfill my dream of being a pilot in the CF however I do feel it is a simple enough question for the recruiting centre to answer.  Also pulling from the question by MikeG, how is it that nobody seems to know when a CEOTP pilot will be promoted past officer cadet.  I know it shouldn't be that hard to find out, but it seems to be.



Each occupation has different requirements for promotion and it is not our jobs to know each of them.  I don't know when a pilot gets promoted to 2Lt because I am not a pilot.  Ask me when a General Service officer gets promoted and I can tell you but that is because I want to know that not because I have to know it.  There are a lot of pilots on this board and with a little effort I am sure they can answer the promotion question.  Recruiting is responsible for an applicant up to completion of basic training and that is it.


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## mbhabfan

thank you for the information.  I think Zoomie has answered it well.  If I am asking the wrong people like the recruiters how would one find out if there was no boards like this?  I had just assumed that this knowledge would have been common in recruiting and therefore wouldn't be hard to find.  Again thanks for the information.  The pay is a bit low but as I posted earlier I would accept pilot under almost any pay.


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## WannaBeFlyer

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Each occupation has different requirements for promotion and it is not our jobs to know each of them.  I don't know when a pilot gets promoted to 2Lt because I am not a pilot.  Ask me when a General Service officer gets promoted and I can tell you but that is because I want to know that not because I have to know it.  There are a lot of pilots on this board and with a little effort I am sure they can answer the promotion question.  Recruiting is responsible for an applicant up to completion of basic training and that is it.



Good to know. Too bad there weren't Pilots doing OJT my CFRC. (or does that not happen?) I agree with mbhabfan. It was extremly frustrating trying to get answers but based on your response, I can appreciate what was going on. I had a general idea but I wanted to confirm how long I was going to be an OCDT, what my pay would be exactly etc. Guess I should have tried army.ca first. On the other hand, there were simple questions such as the exact date (not just the month) of my IAP/BOTC course that could not be answered. But that is another story and doesn't matter anymore.



> CEOTP was initially designed for 18 year old high school graduates who would think that $20,000/year was lots of money.  This plan does not help the single income family - you will be able to get by, just don't think about buying a boat in the near future.


 or food and diapers. (my wife and I are expecting) No seriously, it is an excellent opportunity for those, who as Zoomie mentioned, are straight out high school or those older kids whose parents still cook with cheese. You also have to consider that your Degree is paid for along with the flight training.

When I first visited Recruiting as a HS grad in the 90's, they weren't taking anybody. Sure wish I had an opportunity such as this back then! I also talked to a 130 driver from 8 wing who told me about the OCDT Training Plan (might be wrong name) that entered the CF through and he still does not have a degree? Just interesting point - not starting a why do we need a degree thread - I don't question the requirements at all.



> CEOTP pilot candidates remain Officer Cadets until they graduate advanced flight training - whereupon they will be insta-promoted to 2Lt and Lt all in one fell swoop.  I joined the CF in Oct 1999 and graduated  advanced flight training in Jan, 2004.  I did not attend RMC during this period of time, that is how it takes to train a CF pilot.



Forgive my civie mind but Zoomie, does that mean you are a  LT until you earn your degree? Or what causes one to be promoted to Capt.?  Also, have the wait times for the Jaw improved since your training or is still around the same amount of time?

Excellent information gentleman. Might I say, you Sir along with Kincanucks are truly an asset to the board. Thank you very much. mbhabfan, nice digging for those CEOTP'ers. Thanks again, I can sleep tonight now. I just hope I didn't burn the only bridge into Mike's dream by refusing my offer...


----------



## mbhabfan

Mike your story made me kind of nervous earlier in the day.  I have since come to the understanding that things will happen when they happen, they will tell me when they tell me.  I would also like to echo that Zoomie, Kincanucks, Inch, and Bograt have always been extremely helpful and a big thank you to all of you.  Mike good luck and I will keep in touch.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> Mike your story made me kind of nervous earlier in the day.  I have since come to the understanding that things will happen when they happen, they will tell me when they tell me.  I would also like to echo that Zoomie, Kincanucks, Inch, and Bograt have always been extremely helpful and a big thank you to all of you.  Mike good luck and I will keep in touch.



Thanks and good luck to you too. Been a pleasure chattin' with you along the way. We'll go for pints in two years at the mess when my degree is all wrapped up. What's another 2 years on top of what I have already waited? I just have to go around. Just hope they are still looking for Pilots then...

Inch and Bograt have been a great help/inspiration to me too. Thanks guys. Never thought I would turn an offer for Pilot down...oh well.

mbhabfan, send me pics along the way...


----------



## Collin.t

Hey Rob, I don't recall your name, but you will probably remember me, 

I graduated from basic in June 01 and started my QL3 comm rsch shortly after, so we were either on the same training or you were on the class before me.

I did my IE and transfered to the reserve after, now I'm also going back in the regular forces. Are you going back as a comm rsch ?

Teasdale (or frequently called frenchy)


----------



## 043

Grass isn't always greener on the other side? Welcome back in, good luck to you!


----------



## FastEddy

Former291er said:
			
		

> Hey guys, Just found this site, Its pretty cool. To introduce myself, My name is Rob I was In Comms Rsch From Jan 01 to Jan 04 got out after my initial contract (really bad idea for anyone thinking on getting out, You have it good, lol). Now I am Joining again under the CEOTP option as either a pilot or an air traffic controller. Can't wait to get back in and start making some real money again, lol. So who else out there made the same mistake as me? And what finally changed your mind to get back in?
> Rob




Your anticipated Career Choices indicate that you are more than sufficiently educated, so a better question is why did you get out ?.

As far as making some real money again, I might suggest that it might be interpited as a prime motivation for re-enlistment.

Cheers.


----------



## armyrules

Hey Bob and welcome to the site hope you enjoy your stay


----------



## Former291er

Hey teasdale, man I remember you. You, Dantramante and myself went up town one night in kingston, and you were with our ql3 right up until the morse code held you back. You went into RMS clerk did you not? Are you still in? Where are you posted now? I'm back on Cape Breton right now, waiting for the Officer Job Board in June, can't get here soon enough. I am going for my pilot testing the end of April, and if I pass, its all good but if I don't I will probably take air traffic control, although a CELE Officer is what I really want, but they don't offer that with CEOTP as of yet.
Good to hear from ya man, Post back and let me know whats going on.
Rob.


----------



## Former291er

Sorry Teasdale I forgot to mention. The Last name is Vaters. What are you going back in as?


----------



## Former291er

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Your anticipated Career Choices indicate that you are more than sufficiently educated, so a better question is why did you get out ?.
> 
> As far as making some real money again, I might suggest that it might be interpited as a prime motivation for re-enlistment.
> 
> Cheers.




Hey bro. As for getting out it was a little bit of a few situations. I was only 19 when I joined and got married 3 months later and then only 6 months after that my father passed away. Then 10 months after that in the same month my grandmother died and my other grandmother told us she only had 6 months to live because of cancer(she is still alive by the way). Then about a year after that my wife and I found out that we were going to have a baby. And just to mention, i am not ashamed, my father did commit a rather violent form of suicide that my 16 year old brother and mother walked into find. I only got 2 weeks off from work for that. But back to 2003 when my wife found out she was pregnant my mother and brother were having a hard time so because of all of this, I decided to try to go home and see if I could help out and get my head straight.
I'm sorry if this sounds depressing but it is my story for getting out, i am not at all sensitive or depressed or anything about this anymore. I am just excited as hell to get back into uniform again. Even though I have to do basic training again. lol.
Rob.


----------



## FastEddy

Former291er said:
			
		

> Hey bro. As for getting out it was a little bit of a few situations. I was only 19 when I joined and got married 3 months later and then only 6 months after that my father passed away. Then 10 months after that in the same month my grandmother died and my other grandmother told us she only had 6 months to live because of cancer(she is still alive by the way). Then about a year after that my wife and I found out that we were going to have a baby. And just to mention, i am not ashamed, my father did commit a rather violent form of suicide that my 16 year old brother and mother walked into find. I only got 2 weeks off from work for that. But back to 2003 when my wife found out she was pregnant my mother and brother were having a hard time so because of all of this, I decided to try to go home and see if I could help out and get my head straight.
> I'm sorry if this sounds depressing but it is my story for getting out, i am not at all sensitive or depressed or anything about this anymore. I am just excited as hell to get back into uniform again. Even though I have to do basic training again. lol.
> Rob.




Well Bob, it sure sounds like you've had your share of problems and then some. Kudos's on not letting these events scar your thinking or attitude. I hope that your reenlistment goes smoothly and probally will, but bare in mind that not everyone gets a second chance, so hold on dearly to it.

Keep your progress updated on this Thread so we can all share the Happy Ending. 

Good luck. P.S. even though it might be way down the list, I would leave the financial comments out of the conversation.

Cheers.


----------



## Collin.t

Hey Rob glad to hear that you came out well of all that, I sort of remember hearing about all that stuff during the QL3, I had my own deals of problem too, but they were more related to myself.

Yeah I didn't made it pass the last morse code phase but it was sort of intentionally, it was really driving me nuts and I didn't wanted to end at a morse code station like what we saw in Leitriem for 2-3 years.

I remustered in RMS clerk which was a big mistake too, but I did get to move out west which was one of my dream. After my IE I left and went back to Quebec (where I am right now) to finish my CEGEP degree. Now I'm over with that and all my personal issues etc etc and I'm going back as a NES op, but I'll do another degree part time.

I'm currently working some issues with my girlfriend too, she's from the US and will move with me in Victoria, we too almost had a kid, but didn't end up that way.

While in the reserve I went to aldershot for my QL5, hated the place, but loved NS, I want to go back to hike cape breton.

I was 18 when I joined, and not quite ready for a military career.


----------



## Collin.t

shit I just recalled, you mean D'entremont, he was from alberta but had a french name, big guy right and in love with his pickup ?

Did you kept contact with other people from the QL3 ??, I kept in touch with Otto, Catherine (little red hair girl) and Wareham, but only for a few months.


----------



## Former291er

Hey collin, 
    Ya thats how you spell his name, its been a while, lol. Good to hear your going back in, hope to run into you again. I do keep in touch with a few guys but only Troy Doyle, Jeff Oshier and Aaron Anderson from QL3. When I got to Leitrim we were put on shift and the only people from our course or the course before ours that was on with me was, Troy Doyle, Duncan Allen, Oshier, Archie and desjardins(i think thats how you spell his name). Everyone else was on different shifts so we didn't see much of eachother. Plus at Leitrim you tend to become more shift oriented when it comes to who you hangout with, not to be an ass or anything but just because you spend all your time with them and very little with your old QL3 friends due to working schedules. 
As far as you being in aldershot, I was there for my QL3 in reserves infantry for class 9906 in summer of 1999. I liked it there but there is very little to do on the weekends.
I totally agree with you on the age problem. I am not saying that all 18-19 year old soldiers or hopefuls will have a hard time or not like it, but with my experience, I did not realize how good I had it. Good pay, pay every 2 weeks and friends that I was with right from basic training, through to my shift 2 posting in leitrim. So now after spending little over 2 years in the real world with the bad jobs and day to day struggles I realize what a huge mistake I made and am the most gratefull person in canada that I am getting a second chance at my military career.
I'm probably going to be the only person at basic with a smile on his face everyday, lol.
Cheers,
Rob.


----------



## Former291er

Hello all,
    I have done a search and have found no thread for this topic, I know people have individual threads and posts but I would like a way for everyone going CEOTP to have one thread where they can meet lots of people doing the same thing as themselves. I hope there are more people out there that feel this way too, and I hope to hear from you. 
I would like to ask everyone who is going into the forces for CEOTP to post they're story so far and progress on your application here. I would like to hear from everyone else going CEOTP because that is what I am trying for and at least on Cape Breton island I am the only one who is doing this. So I would like to be able to hear from and chat with others going in this direction.
Rob.


----------



## double0three

Well I'm currently going ROTP at the moment, but I have been discussing switching programs with my recruiter.  When I first applied back in November I wasn't even aware CEOTP was an option.  Since I already have 1 year of University under my belt and a 2 year diploma it seems like it would be a better option.  Plus I would be able to begin working right away which is nice, as opposed to having to wait 3 years until I get my degree.

My profession is Pilot and I'm from Halifax.  Also my medical file is still in the hands of the powers that be, and I'm waiting to hear back on that.


----------



## Zach15

For some reason my recruited firmly told me CEOTP was not an option for me. I think he said you had to already have a pilots license or something - I almost started an argument with him about it because I had called another recruiting centre earlier in the week and they told me that CEOTP was an option for me.

               /shrug

   I'm ROTP now, and I think I prefer it that way.

   Can anyone veryify the prerequisits for pilot CEOTP?

    Zach


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Not open for you Zach? But you are almost accepted to ROTP! You should have no problem with CEOTP. Personally, I think you are better off in ROTP. double if I may, I suggest you stick with ROTP. I know, I know - I am lingering but I saw this and couldn't resist on the way by. 

My advice, for what it is worth, but as someone who does part time studies in the civie world, get the degree out of the way in ROTP!!!!!  ROTP is an excellent program. Keep in mind CEOTP is part time so you will have to do this on your time and for a very long time.  Wait for them to let you know if you are in to ROTP or not. Then apply to CEOTP if it is still open should you not be accepted. Believe me, I know what you mean about wanting to get on the job fast but according to many discussions and to what I have read, there is close to a 2 year backlog in the pilot training system (Moose Jaw). May as well get the degree in basket weaving out of the way in that time since you already have a year completed. Yes, you would have to wait on top of that for Moose Jaw but the degree is over with. 

Some other factors include pay/benefits and the time you owe back. I guess it depends on how important these items are to you. But for some it is really important.

For pay/promotions under ROTP, upon completion of IAP/BOTC, you are promoted to 2nd LT and receive back pay for your time in St.Jean. CEOTP'ers are OCDT's until they time they earn their wings or are MOC qualified. They are not promoted until that time. You can spend close to five years with that pay but the length of time as an OCDT will depend on how long the line is for Moose Jaw. With CEOTP, You go from OCDT to LT (skip 2nd LT) once you are MOC qualified. During your time as an OCDT, you will be making around $2400/month plus annual increases as time goes on. Not exactly sure; I can't get to the payscales for some reason.

There is also the amount of time you owe in return. I think ROTP is 7 years CEOTP is 9 years. When you start paying that back, (after BMQ or when you are MOC qualified) not sure. For me, I would have been a lifer but not everybody is in it for the same reasons. For example., some have "Big Red" or a civie commercial career on the brain after the CF.

Just some advice from a thirty something guy who has tried a couple of times a couple of different ways. If I could rewind ten years, I would get the degree out of the way and go DEO or ROTP. 

Zach, CEOTP requirements are: Basic Pilot requirements + credits that will get you accepted at a university (in a nutshell.)
NO flight time required. I bet that receive a lot of applications from commercial pilots out of work who don't have a degree or those who have an Aviation Diploma and no degree. That is why you may hear of a lot of CEOTP applicants with flight time. The aviation industry is very tough to... for lack of a better term...get off the ground in. CEOTP is a great program for people in this situation.


----------



## double0three

Ah very interesting post.  I did not know all those facts.  Getting the degree out of the way would definately be nice.  My recruiter doesn't really seem to like the idea of me going to CEOTP either.  I suppose I would be best off sticking with ROPT for now, and perhaps if I don't get accepted, will work on my university degree in the meantime until able to apply again.  Then at that point I'll be up to year 2 or 3, so then maybe CEOTP would be an option then.

And the years I have to pay back is not a real concern, since I see this as a reeeeeeeeeeal long term career.  Why else would I put myself through all this for just a short time??


----------



## derael

Well I think I'm about the only guy in Canada it seems going through CEOTP for Infantry. lol

Just a side note about applying for CEOTP should your ROTP application fail. As I understand it you would have to wait for the next round of CEOTP to go through as it would be too late for your application to be changed over for this round. Then again I'd double check that with your recuiting center.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> I suppose I would be best off sticking with ROPT for now, and perhaps if I don't get accepted, will work on my university degree in the meantime until able to apply again.  Then at that point I'll be up to year 2 or 3, so then maybe CEOTP would be an option then.



Ya, don't count on it though. CEOTP has only been open when they can't attract enough DEO applicants and they need to fill spots. Not sure if they are going to keep this program open or close it once they have enough 32U's kicking around. You can apply for ROTP up to the final year of your degree I believe so that is an option too. 



> And the years I have to pay back is not a real concern, since I see this as a reeeeeeeeeeal long term career.  Why else would I put myself through all this for just a short time??



I agree but there are some who see this as a great launch pad to a civilian career later in lfe. A "Free training - build flight time" view.


----------



## double0three

Oh it's definately a great way to enter any civie career ,with all the training and experience you get.  But personally, I doubt I will ever go back if I get accepted.


----------



## Former291er

MikeG said:
			
		

> For pay/promotions under ROTP, upon completion of IAP/BOTC, you are promoted to 2nd LT and receive back pay for your time in St.Jean. CEOTP'ers are OCDT's until they time they earn their wings or are MOC qualified. They are not promoted until that time. You can spend close to five years with that pay but the length of time as an OCDT will depend on how long the line is for Moose Jaw. With CEOTP, You go from OCDT to LT (skip 2nd LT) once you are MOC qualified. During your time as an OCDT, you will be making around $2400/month plus annual increases as time goes on. Not exactly sure; I can't get to the payscales for some reason.



I had no idea that this is how the pay scale worked. All along I have been told at the recruiting center that I would go up to 2 LT either upon completion of basic or once on the second language training and be back paid to the date of graduation from basic. If what you say is true, and i'm not saying it isn't, I think I should go into the recruiting center tomorrow to straighten this out.
Thanks for the info.
Rob.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Former291er, have a look at <a href="http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41060.0.html"> This thread</a>

In particular, look at Zoomie's post (he is an experienced Buffalo Pilot with 442.) I quoted his posts in regards to CEOTP salary questions below. It seems several of us were not exactly sure on how the pay worked for CEOTP. He was able to share some info on CEOTP with us since he has previously worked with Pilots who were accepted through CEOTP.



> CEOTP pilot candidates remain Officer Cadets until they graduate advanced flight training - where upon they will be insta-promoted to 2Lt and Lt all in one fell swoop.  I joined the CF in Oct 1999 and graduated  advanced flight training in Jan, 2004.  I did not attend RMC during this period of time, that is how it takes to train a CF pilot.
> 
> So... You will be an OCdt for a long time - it pays to have your degree before applying.  CEOTP was initially designed for 18 year old high school graduates who would think that $20,000/year was lots of money.  This plan does not help the single income family - you will be able to get by, just don't think about buying a boat in the near future.



Zoomie also shared some info regarding CEOTP in <a href="http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18307.0.html"> this thread </a>



> A buddy of mine is in his mid-forties, and he just finished up his Pilot training.  For the entire four years that he was undergoing training (not University - just training) he was supporting his wife and daughter on OCdt's salary (which is not much).  I found it challenging making it through my four years of pilot training as a 2Lt.  Unless your wife is pulling in some good coin, you will be living pay cheque to pay cheque.  Heck, I am still doing that now as a 1st incentive Captain (pilot).
> 
> You must be prepared to take the lumps when you join the CF with dependants.  You will not be paid a sufficient salary for quite a few years in order to support a family.  Not to dissuade you, but be prepared to cut coupons, go without and live in military housing <not too bad> while waiting for those coveted wings.
> 
> So don't let age be a factor in your decision.  Your lack of a degree is definately your largest road-block.  If CEOTP is closed, you need to have at least a 3 year degree from an accredited looniversity



As you can see, he is really a great resource for wannabe pilots on the site. Hope this info sheds some light on CEOTP for you.


----------



## maniac779

I've posted this elsewhere as well. But in accordance with suggestions above, I'll post here too.

I'm going CEOTP Pilot.

Here is an update on myself for those of you looking for an idea of what is going on.

I sat down with a MCC at CFRC today and they informed me that there is a problem with my offer, having to do with conditions of rank/promotion/pay etc. Because of my education and backround, I am entitled to certain items not expressed in my offer.

I've informed the recruiters if they can't get this things fixed (I won't go into details, but they ARE signifcant) I will have to reject the offer. They have told me (off the record) that would be a prudent course of action as the errors are due to oversights with involving CFRG, not myself, and that the errors are significant enough to warrant a rejection.

I should know more by tomorrow.


----------



## Former291er

damn that sucks bro. Good luck with that.


----------



## Former291er

Thanks for the post MikeG, lots of good information with the link to the other post. It would really be hard trying to get by for 4 years with a wife and daughter making under 3 grand. I am going into the recruiting center tomorrow before the gym to ask if the captain can dig for some  solid information on pay for CEOTP. Also I am looking into the IAP bypass. I have already done basic training so I am interested to find out if I have to do this. I also have leadership backround as I was in charge of TT3 when I was in leitrim and also HFDF when I was in it. I'll post whatever I can find out.
Rob.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

No prob. Its great that people like Zoomie take the time to share that hard to find info.


----------



## SweetNavyJustice

Just as a quick note concerning a waiver of IAP.  CFRG doesn't seem all that interested in considering job related supervisory experience as something that will waive your having to attend IAP.  They will grant you an excemption if you are already qualified on PLQ (former JLC/JNCO).  If you've completed this course then you can go straight to your BOTP.  

As an aside, you should have stuck with the job and gone UTP instead of CEOTP or ROTP.  It's pretty sweet hanging out at university on a Masters salary.... ;D


----------



## Former291er

SweetNavyJustice said:
			
		

> As an aside, you should have stuck with the job and gone UTP instead of CEOTP or ROTP.  It's pretty sweet hanging out at university on a Masters salary.... ;D



Yes, I hear ya. I know that now, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20. lol. I missed an opportunity but this CEOTP is one I'm not letting go of. Whether it is for pilot or some other trade if I don't qualify for pilot.


----------



## Former291er

Well I went to the recruiting center today with less than a straight answer that's for sure. So here are the answers I came away with when asking, when does a OCDT joining under CEOTP get his first promotion?
1. You will get your 2Lt upon graduation of basic training or shortly thereafter.
2. You will get promoted to LT after phase 3 of your training, basic flight school.
3. You will not get promoted until you are moc qualified but you will be put up to the rank of Captain.

So needless to say that doesn't really help. I also got no response as to what it takes to be excused from the IAP of basic training. Maybe if there are some recruiters on the board they might be able to get better answers to these questions.
I know kincanucks, I think is his name, is a recruiter and might know the correct answers. So if kincanucks reads this, please straighten us out.
Thanks Rob.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

I am sure if you went across the country, you would receive manily two different answers. One for the typical pilot promotion, the other for CEOTP OCDT's. I guess you have to read the offer should there be one and if it is contained in there. Personally, I am going with Zoomie's response. Good luck & thanks.


----------



## rz350

I was at the CFRC with Wynne today, as she did some papers, and as I was waiting, someone was trying to recruit me. (But since Ive already applied to P.res it didnt work) but we got talking, and I said I was part time in University, he mentioned something about CEOTP. But I am wondering if it is possible to switch from NCM to CEOTP will having a GED (high school equivalency...not a OSSD) Is it? I'm not sworn in yet as a NCM, but am accepted according to the recruiter. So is it possible, or does the lack of a OSSD preclude it?


----------



## kincanucks

rz350 said:
			
		

> I was at the CFRC with Wynne today, as she did some papers, and as I was waiting, someone was trying to recruit me. (But since Ive already applied to P.res it didnt work) but we got talking, and I said I was part time in University, he mentioned something about CEOTP. But I am wondering if it is possible to switch from NCM to CEOTP will having a GED (high school equivalency...not a OSSD) Is it? I'm not sworn in yet as a NCM, but am accepted according to the recruiter. So is it possible, or does the lack of a OSSD preclude it?



You need a OSSD with French or English 12U, Math 12U, and Chem 11U or 12U or Physics 11U or 12U.


----------



## rz350

alright, thanks for the quick answer. NCM for me it is then.  At least until I graduate Uni anyways.


----------



## Leo791989

Is their CEOTP for non pilot professions?


----------



## kincanucks

Leo791989 said:
			
		

> Is their CEOTP for non pilot professions?



Hmmm I believe there are a couple of threads that could have answered that question.


DA


----------



## jwsteele

I have a reasonable question.  How come there is 4 pay grades for OCdt in CEOTP?  My understanding of the program was they commissioned you before you had a degree as long as it was completed in your first contract.  So assuming this is correct, wouldn't most people complete BOTP within a few months effectively making them a 2Lt and therefore entitled to 2Lt pay?  I would really like a current and correct answer on this because I have no idea why there are four pay scales for OCdt.


----------



## kincanucks

_My understanding of the program was they commissioned you before you had a degree as long as it was completed in your first contract.  So assuming this is correct, wouldn't most people complete BOTP within a few months effectively making them a 2Lt and therefore entitled to 2Lt pay?_

Wow that was so succinctly written, not.  There are four incentives for OCdt under CEOTP because it could take you four years to be occupational qualified which is the prerequisite for promotion to 2Lt not passing IAP/BOTP.  DEOs are promoted to 2Lt upon completion of IAP/BOTP not CEOTPs.

HH


----------



## Meridian

kincanucks;

I know we chatted briefly about this via PM:

Does this mean that essentially, a CEOTPer is like ROTP when they hit their first trained unit?  I mean, a DEO will have ~1-4 years of time in grade at 2Lt and thus would be more or less promotable to LT right away, would they not, as compared to a CEOTP or an ROTP who would have no time in grade at 2LT?  Or am I just rambling off nonsense?

Whats the requirement for promotion to full Lt from 2Lt?

Ive heard from a few people (none official) that 2Lt is retrograded to 9 months after your enrollment date (assuming you complete MOC qualifications), which would give you similar time-in-grade to DEO plus the obvious financial investment... CFRCs are reluctant to confirm or deny...


----------



## kincanucks

A CEOTP enrolee is a CEOTP enrolee and is not like anything else.

_Whats the requirement for promotion to full Lt from 2Lt?_

A minimum of two years in rank and CO's recommendation for CEOTP and DEO.  Thus DEO is promoted to LT faster than CEOTP.

Ive heard from a few people (none _official) that 2Lt is retrograded to 9 months after your enrollment date (assuming you complete MOC qualifications), which would give you similar time-in-grade to DEO plus the obvious financial investment... CFRCs are reluctant to confirm or deny..._
Never heard of this.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

My advice, for what it is worth, is if you are already past the point of medicals, PT test and interview etc. and are just waiting for the phone to ring, I would suggest that you wait until you have your offer in hands before you try and guess or understand how your are going to be commissioned/compensated in terms of CEOTP. 

To give you an example, as I was going through the process last year and I met a lot of both current and former CEOTP'ers who were accepted in '04. A year and half after St.Jean, these OCDT's were close to or were just entering primary flight training around April of last year SO - they still had a long road ahead of them as OCDT's before they earned their wings and moved up the ranks. What got me was that some of the current CEOTP'ers, a rare few mind you, had been commissioned to 2nd LT after IAP/BOTC... again, things may have changed (I doubt it) but again - if you are just waiting for the phone to ring, wait until you review AND discuss your offer with the staff before you start to panic.


----------



## Meridian

Thanks Kincanucks, as always.

MikeG:

The thing of it is, I will not submit an application (and thus waste the time of the CFRG) until I know what I will be compensated and when. This is part of the recruiting problem in my view; if you can't tell people what they will be making and when they will be making it, you will lose quality people.  My best friend enrolled as DEO, and they couldn't tell him what and when he would be paid until he arrived at St Jean. Even there, their pay was delayed, and several people were mis-paid.

Before anyone jumps on me for joining for the wrong reasons; I will invariably lose out on cash by leaving my civilian employment to go to the forces, whether it is DEO or CEOTP or any other enrollment plan other than Pilot, lawyer or doctor, and Im not qualified for any of the three anyway.  I am not joining the forces for money.  If I had positive net-worth, Id join for next to nothing. But I don't.

Im just all about ensuring that I can meet financial obligations for the long haul...  a year at a low rate of pay is one thing; 3 years at a low rate of pay with a longer period of wait time to get to Captain (and thus get similar pay to what I make now), is something I would like to consider before submitting an application.

I have an excellent credit rating, and am not interested in losing it, nor am I interested in becoming an admin burden to anyone.
It just makes it harder for me to complete a degree as well while working full time for an employer who is less than accomodating, and where the tuition eats up my ability to repay debt. at a faster rate. 

Short story:  I want in, -badly-, but I'm not going to re-enroll half-cocked, hoping I can get some good information at some point and everything will fall in line.  As people on here have said many times before; the army will always be there.


----------



## avro87

I hear that the airforce has opened this up again?  Has anyone else?  Is it a good way to go, and how long is your commitment through the CEOTP, wings plus 7 years?
Thanks!


----------



## Barracuda13

Hey Avro

I applied through CEOTP last february, i think it's still open, because of the expansion policy right now. I haven t finished my degree so it was a good way for me but your pay is gonna be less than DEO until you get your wings ,so if you have dependants it's hard. your commitment is long i think 12 years of service with 3 years education time at least thats what they told me so around 15 years , definately not 7 yrs. Call your RCentre and ask them more. It is a good plan but It depends on your situation.. hope this helps


----------



## avro87

wow, big commitment!  Thanks for the info.


----------



## Elwood

I just finished my undergraduate degree in English and Mathematics. I can imagine that it wouldn't be no cake-walk to do it while you're in the CF. It will probably be easier to apply through the RMC, ROTP or DEO programs. If you go CEOTP, maybe do a year or two of university to make it easier on yourself... besides the application process usually takes about a year, so you could apply for CEOTP and do university courses while you wait.


----------



## avro87

I'm already in second year college now, so it works out well.  If I applied now, according to you, I will have 3 years under my belt when and if accepted.  How would that affect how I did my education in between military training?


----------



## Elwood

Are you in college or university? The Air Force accepts applicants who've done a college aviation program, but it might be different for other college programs. If you have college training, I know that you can get university transfer credits.

If you haven't applied now... do it. That's the best advice I can give if you want to fly in the CF. Myself, I applied almost a year ago, but I'm still waiting for my past medical documents because I served in the reserves and did a stint at RMC. The recruiting centre is very helpful, and I think applying soon will be your best bet towards being a future CF pilot.


----------



## avro87

yes, this april I will have completed my Commercial Aviation Diploma.  You said they accept this?  I thought you must have a degree?


----------



## Barracuda13

Hey Avro

which college are you graduating from? I'd advice you to talk the rec centre, they know the best but you can ask couple of officers there, with a recognized aviation degree you can skip ACS. anyways hope the best for you, take care


----------



## avro87

thx, ill ask...I should be talkin to a recruiter this thursday.  Its actually not a degree, just a diploma (although ill prob due the extra 2 years for the BBA).  And what is ACS?


----------



## Barracuda13

Acs is aircrew selection, sometimes if they recognize your aviation degree or diploma they d let you bypass ACS


----------



## George Wallace

I am simply amazed that you guys are professing to have 'higher' educations and are aspiring to be officers in the CF, yet in all your posts your sentence structure is so unprofessional.  I would say that the time is ripe for you to start getting in the habit of writing 'professionally acceptable' prose to further your credibility and skills as future officers of the CF.


----------



## avro87

Dear Mr. Wallace,

     I am simply amazed that you would take time out of your day to comment on our sentence structure.  I wasn't aware that this forum had rules on sentence structure.  Although I do understand your comment regarding "credibility", I am not an officer in the Canadian Forces.  The purpose of this post was to help increase my knowledge of ways to join the Canadian Air Force, including that of the CEOTP.  If you have any information on the CEOTP I would love to hear about it!  Also, I want to make it clear that I have never professed to have "higher" education!  Finally, I would appreciate it if people making comments on this post would please stick to the topic, and not make unproductive comments.  Thank you very much!

Sincerely,


Avro


----------



## George Wallace

avro87

Thank you ever so much for the admonishing post.  I may point you in a direction that may help you in your application process and personal betterment to point out the Topic in the Army.ca Admin Forum titled Grammar and Sentence Structures for this site.  It is only one of the Topics we covered to encourage the improvement and betterment of this site and its participants.  The CF is a "Professional" organization and its members are expected to behave and write like "Professionals".  MSN and ICQ "short hand" has also been covered, as has Misspellings in titles of threads.   I am sure that if you were to learn proper grammar and sentence structure, it would only aid you in your quest to become an officer.  You don't want to go into an interview or selection board and talk and write like a hick, do you?  

Anyway; help us to keep this a 'professional' site.

George


----------



## avro87

Mr. Wallace,
     I understand completely what you are saying.  I would like to some how write my laughter on this post with regard to the "hick" comment, but that would involve using MSN/ICQ slang (ie. lol).  I completely agree that the Canadian Forces are professional, and I would expect its members to behave in a professional manner.  My point to my last post was to say that I am not a member, and I am simply trying to find information on the CF. I was not intending to write my posts in a grammatically correct way, simply because I did not think of this forum as a means of displaying my professionalism.  Nor do I think that it is necessary.  However, I can see you point on being professional all the time, so to help in my quest of becoming an officer.  Lastly, I would like to make the point that most people do not speak, in person, as they write on a forum or chat room.  So I do not think I will have an issue when communicating with a recruiter.

Sincerely,



Avro


P.S. - I'm quite confident I do not sound anything like a "hick" in person, or on this forum for that matter.


----------



## Elwood

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I would say that the time is ripe for you to start getting in the habit of writting



George does have a good point. A bit of care should be put in your posts. However, the odd mistake here and there should be acceptable, such as writing "writing" with two t's instead of one.


----------



## George Wallace

Other than that, it was relatively well written.   ;D



[Just a note:  Spell Check doesn't pick up "writting" as being spelled incorrectly.]


----------



## avro87

I'll try and be more professional while on this forum.  I must say Elwood, you have a sharp eye for incorrect spelling!


----------



## Neill McKay

George Wallace said:
			
		

> [Just a note:  Spell Check doesn't pick up "writting" as being spelled incorrectly.]



Put knot awl yore trussed inn spell cheque.


----------



## George Wallace

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Put knot awl yore trussed inn spell cheque.



Ah! Yes!  That Topic was "Miss Spelling"


----------



## JLeclerc

For a long story short, my contract as an Armoured Recce Trooper (3rd year Private) ended in May of 2006 (4B release), after 3 years active service with a tour in Afghanistan. In July of 2006, I applied under a new program "CEOTP" (entry date for program is October 2005) for pilot and in April of 2007, after they had "lost" my old medical files for months, the program was shut in my face and I was forced to change to a new MOC, I chose MARS Officer, Navy. I have finished all my tests (again) and I am now awaiting final review of my files from Borden.  

The question in my head as I start planning for my future, what is my pay scale and rank upon start or re-completion of basic? (and yes I have to go through it again, as the officer basic is not the same overall content for those asking). I called and inquired, poured through vast forces documents and found only this...

Quote from Compensation and Benefit Instructions (204) from the DND website:

_"204.211(1) (Purpose) The purpose of this instruction is to establish the rate of pay for an officer on enrolment, component transfer or commissioning, taking into consideration the number of pay increments awarded in accordance with CBI 204.015 - Pay Increments, CBI 204.04 - Rate of Pay on Promotion, and the officer’s rank and entry plan.
204.211(1.1) The following abbreviations are used in this CBI:
1.	(a) “CEOTP” means Continuing Education Officer Training Plan; 
2.	(b) “CFRP” means Commissioned From the Ranks Plan;
3.	(c) “DEO” means Direct Entry Officer;
4.	(d) “OCTP” means Officer Candidate Training Plan (No Former Service and Former Service);
5.	(e) “ROTP” means Regular Officer Training Plan;
6.	(f) “SCP” means Special Commissioning Plan; and
7.	(g) “UTP”(NCM) means University Training Plan Non-Commissioned Member.
204.211(1.2) (Application) This instruction applies to
1.	(a) an officer cadet to whom the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the OCTP, the CEOTP, the SCP or the CFRP applies;
2.	(b) a lieutenant or a second lieutenant who has successfully completed the ROTP, the UTP(NCM), the CEOTP, the SCPl or the OCTP ;
3.	(c) a DEO in the rank of lieutenant, second lieutenant or officer cadet;
4.	(d) a lieutenant or second lieutenant commissioned directly from the rank of warrant officer or below; and
5.	(e) a pilot who was appointed to the rank of officer cadet or enrolled in the DEO Program after 30 September 1998.
204.211(2) (Pay on promotion) In accordance with paragraphs (3) and (4) of CBI 204.04 - Rate of Pay on Promotion, an officer shall be paid on promotion at the rate of pay established for the officer’s rank, pay increment and pay level as set out in the tables to this instruction.
204.211(7) (Rate of pay – CEOTP) An officer to whom the CEOTP applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:
1.	(a) for an officer in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant 
1.	(i) with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction, or
2.	(ii) with former non-commissioned member service and appointment to the rank of officer cadet directly from the rank of private or above, in pay level D of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction; and
2.	(b) in the rank of officer cadet with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level B of Table "A" to this instruction.
(1) (General) The rate of pay on promotion or commission for an officer up to the rank of lieutenant-colonel and for a non-commissioned member will be based on the rate of pay held prior to promotion. A pay increment higher than basic in the new rank may be determined in accordance with this instruction. 
(2) (Application) This instruction applies to:
a.	officers paid under: 
i.	CBI 204.21 (Pay - General Service Officers);
ii.	CBI 204.211 (Pay - General Service Officers - Officer Entry Plans - Lieutenant, Second Lieutenant and Officer Cadet), with the exception of officer cadets promoted to second lieutenant to whom the Direct Entry Officer Plan applies;
iii.	CBI 204.215 (Pay - Officers - Pilots - Lieutenant-colonel, Major and Captain);
iv.	CBI 204.2156 (Pay - Officers - Pilots - Officer Entry Plans - Lieutenant and Second Lieutenant);
v.	CBI 204.216 (Pay – Medical Officers); 
vi.	CBI 204.217 (Pay – Dental Officers); and 
vii.	CBI 204.218 (Pay – Legal Officers); 
b.	non-commissioned members paid under CBI 204.30 (Pay - Non-commissioned Members), with the exception of corporals on appointment to master corporal.
(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of 
a.	the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or
b.	the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the date of the promotion, plus an amount equal to the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.
(4) (General Service Officer - Officer Entry Plans) If an officer is paid under CBI 204.211 and is entitled to receive pay level D on promotion to a higher rank, but the rate calculated under subparagraph (3)(b) of this instruction exceeds the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in pay level D in Table "B" or "C", as applicable for the officer’s new rank, the officer shall be paid under pay level E in that table in accordance with paragraph (3).
(5) (Medical and Dental officers) If a medical or dental officer is promoted to the rank of major or captain,
a.	"basic rate of pay" for the purpose of subparagraph (3)(a) is pay increment 1; and
b.	the "difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 and pay increment Basic" for the purpose of subparagraph (3)(b) is the difference between the rate of pay established for pay increment 2 and pay increment 1.
(TB # 832549, effective 1 April 2005)"_

I will put it simply, if anyone has went through a similar process or experience or actually knows the legal side to this question, please I'm all ears on this one!

Thanks!


----------



## SupersonicMax

You're applying CEOTP right? If so, I believe you'll be making 2507$ a month for the first year and you'll be Ocdt.  It's the Pay Level B in the General Officer table, Ocdt Rank.

Max


----------



## kwon

does the DND still pay for university in the CEOTP


----------



## Meridian

kwon said:
			
		

> does the DND still pay for university in the CEOTP



It is a possibility.


----------



## BC Old Guy

There is a program to pay for tuition and books for those who are upgrading their education.  As CEOTP you would be required to take the degree on a part time basis, while you have a full-time commitment to your CF job.

If you have made substantial progress to your degree, and are a top performer, there are limited spots for a degree completion program.  However, these spots are limited.  I would expect that the competition would be very high for the limited available spots.

Plan on working very hard to complete your degree if you go CEOTP.


----------



## Meridian

As an aside, if you are looking for a sold distance education school with a reputable name...

the University of London offers full degree programs online; with exams once a year.  You get the same degree as anyone else who attends at the school.  Costs are comparable.. seems to be cheaper for tuition, but you'll probably pay a fair amount in exam fees.

http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/


----------



## Meridian

FYI, CEOTP is now closed for all Combat Arms.

Lucky me, I got to find out at my interview (for Combat Arms trades) today.   I suppose this is a good thing for the CF; I just would have preferred to have been told about it earlier, or that they keep my file open until a spot opens... having to reapply is... well... 

IIRC, the following CEOTP trades are open:

MARS, PLT, ATC, LOG (A)


3/4 I do not qualify for due to CV3.


----------



## Dejo

I have been using this forum over a year, but its time I post my concern. I have applied for ceotp plan as a pilot, only did and pass the apt test, april 10, 2006. since then waiting for pre-security clearance. tho I have worked in Saudi, Malaysia, Bangladesh and singapore, tech training in France, visit Britain and US. 
I keep asking the recruiter about my recruitment but same old story, still waiting for clearance. Last year, Aug 2007, I contacted CSIS<intelligence agancy> about the clearance and the agency said, my employer did not submit any request to do check on me, I got highly frustrated and contact Production officer, recruitment Ottawa about a surprise from csis. He said its a Dep Provost Marshall thats in charge of my security clearance.
The question are:
1) Does it mean the Canadian military don't trust the job of csis for clearance check, b/c you hear Can force saying they are short of staff in the security clearance dept, and thats the reasons for backlog.
2) You see Ads, flyer everywhere looking for personnels in military, yet the military slow down in recruitment process, but use a pretends that its security clearance that take times, the middle east and others I have worked, they are all US companies that send me there from Canada, and they have all my information on my period I have worked for them. its a field work, 7 weeks in desert and vac for 3 weeks in Canada.
3) what happen to other process like medical, fitness since pilot is a specialize profession, at least one can be either qualified or disqualified even b/f the pre-secure comes.
4) I have worked with Raytheon Canada (Tech) and Toronto International Airport (security), while there we did security clearance check. infact Raytheon said since they worked for US govt, its customer's demand that they get our names to US for check. So what happen with all these places I have worked.
5) I have been in around the country for 18 months now taking Elec Eng prog in Carleton Univ., the same old story waiting for clearance.

Although I was not born in Canada, but one keep wondering whats going on with recruitments since I met the requirement as a Canadian citizen, Apt, and education. Again can any one tell me when in every year they do selection for ceotp for pilot?. And what happen if a year passed without decision on candidates thats has passed apt test.
finally when or how long do you have to wait for pre-security. I once told the recruiter that Nigeria where I was originally from is not in war time and will be co-operative with Canadian contact source of info request, so also my former employers, Rayhteon, Toronto airport, Schlumberger and Grant geophysical, USA. 

I need some encouragement and good comments, I am considering writing at the end of this year for a stop on the military career I have love to join, I mean its weird to wait indefinitely. Any comments guys thanks  :-\


----------



## maniac779

CEOTP Pilot is a competitive entry plan.

Not to mention, at this moment, CEOTP pilot is closed. Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you.

April is the new fiscal year. Chances are CEOTP pilot will open again, but one can never be too sure.

WRT your complains with our clearance policy; we have a process that ensures we get reliable, trustworthy people through the door. It's a process that is by and large, tried, tested and true. If you have lived out of country for significant periods of time, it takes time to gather the required information for us to be satisfied. 

Has it occurred to you that we may be having trouble getting the information from the third parties regarding your past history?


----------



## Dejo

Hey maniac779,
I only need encouragement from guys, but I don't really understand what you mean by "...Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you."

I am absolutely free from any decision by Military anyway, tho not sure if you speak for Can military anyway but be sure that there is nothing spoil, I have never put all my hope in the force job anytime. I am doing fine b/f my intention to join, my earning was 2 times what military is offering, but its not about money but a career, what you want to do or be in life, and Canada. Take time to find out that average enrollings are jobless or for more packages, but mine is completely out of thats, its about what I want to be and Canada...

why don't you encourage rather discourage your fellow human. Thanks


----------



## aesop081

Dejo said:
			
		

> Hey maniac779,
> I only need encouragement from guys, but I don't really understand what you mean by "...Even if your entire application was squared away, we wouldn't be enrolling you."
> 
> I am absolutely free from any decision by Military anyway, tho not sure if you speak for Can military anyway but be sure that there is nothing spoil, I have never put all my hope in the force job anytime. I am doing fine b/f my intention to join, my earning was 2 times what military is offering, but its not about money but a career, what you want to do or be in life, and Canada. Take time to find out that average enrollings are jobless or for more packages, but mine is completely out of thats, its about what I want to be and Canada...
> 
> why don't you encourage rather discourage your fellow human. Thanks



What he said was that the program ( CEOTP ) for pilot is CLOSED. That means that the CF is not accepting ANYONE into this specific program. You could have the best application in the world but the CF wold not enroll you as the program is CLOSED at this time.


----------



## Loachman

And that was it - a blunt statement of fact.

I am amazed that people today are willing to wait seemingly endlessly for applications to be processed, and for courses once they're in. I can fully sympathize with how discouraging this must be, and I admire their patience. I also appreciate how wasteful this is to the CF, and to those people hanging on. Things were much quicker when I applied, and I do not know if I could have stuck out being in limbo as long as many have.

Keep politely enquiring at your recruiting centre, Dejo - not so much as to be annoying, but enough to let them know that you are interested and keen. Even if CEOTP is still closed, at least keep asking about your clearance.

In the meantime, furthering your education may well help.

I also appreciate that English is not your first language, and I will willingly admit that I am abominable in any other language other than my own, but brushing up on written English would also be of great benefit to you in the CF, especially as an officer. This is meant as a helpful tip and not as criticism. You are perfectly understandable as you are - it's a matter of "polish".

Good luck to you.


----------



## acheo

Don't give up Dejo. I can feel your frustration as I experienced the same when I joined.  Seems like the military has a lot to learn about human ressources but that's another topic.

Keep studying or polishing your skills and get involved in your community. If the military does not acknowledge your value, some other will.

By the way you are much better in English that I will ever be and it doesn't keep me from flying. 

Good luck!


----------



## Loachman

acheo said:
			
		

> Seems like the military has a lot to learn about human ressources but that's another topic.



It's not a learning problem - it's the state that we've fallen into after being forced to pay people to leave in the early nineties, prevented from recruiting for over a decade, and being simultaneously underfunded and overtasked throughout.

This has left a huge experience gap, and few to replace those who have been hitting retirement age for the last several years and who will continue to do so for the next several.

We could recruit hundreds of thousands, but without enough experienced officers and NCOs who should have been joining and developing during the Dark Years, they are not going to be trained quickly enough.

It didn't used to be this bad, and it'll be a while before it gets better.


----------



## hauger

Dejo said:
			
		

> I contacted CSIS<intelligence agancy> about the clearance and the agency said, my employer did not submit any request to do check on me, I got highly frustrated and contact Production officer, recruitment Ottawa about a surprise from csis. He said its a Dep Provost Marshall thats in charge of my security clearance.



I'm pretty sure the initial Reliability clearance is done without the use of CSIS...that CSIS provideds the government Level I,II,or III clearance after the fact.  The reasoning I think is that CSIS charges good money, and the cost is prohibitive to run CSIS clearances on each and every applicant.

Give it time my man...any non-standard background causes the clearance system to run at the speed of smell.  Keep in mind that these guys run clearances on each and every applicant from across the country, meaning your application is one of tens of thousands that needs to be cleared.  Unfortunately, that means that once it hits the top of the pile, the requests for information are made, then it's shuffled to the bottom of the next pile.  This process continues until eventually it comes to the top of a pile where there's no subsequent pile for it to bottom to.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Dejo, I am currently completing the final phase of the Pilot application process through CEOTP. With my ERC in hand, I waited more than one year before I received an ASC date. Then again, I may be on their 'B' list.  ;D

Don't tap out because the wait is longer than you would like. Good luck.


----------



## BC Old Guy

A number of questions raised in this thread.

First - the pre-enrolment security assessment gets handed to CSIS by the CF Security staff.  If there are questions about the information provided, they will be asked down the chain until you are asked the question, and provide the info requested.  You can check with the Recruiting Centre to see if they need additional information from you.

Second - over the past year there were many pilot applications, and very few enrolments.  Since at least Aug 2007 the enrolments were few, and the individuals normally had experience and education that stood out from the other applications.

Third - Yes, CEOTP will open again after April.  However, there are about 3x as many applications as there are jobs, so it will remain a competitive environment for those that wish to become CF pilots.  

Fourth - Pre-enrolment security assessments are only done when the applicant had some out-of-Canada ties - such as employment.  

Those of us in the Recruiting system try to manage the expectations of the people we talk to about employment opportunities - however, we each have a different communication style, which affects how the message is relayed.  As well, changes happen quickly - and priorities change, sometime during the year.  This means that what the recruiter tells you at the beginning of the year may differ significantly from what the same recruiter would tell you in December.  Keep in touch with the Recruiting Centre, amd the process should go a little more smoothly.


----------



## zorro

BC

Just out of curriousity, would a DEO offer be relatively "easier" to attain as opposed to an ROTP or CEOTP offer? I don't ask this specifically of PLT, but of any trade in general?

Thanks.


----------



## Elwood

zorro said:
			
		

> Just out of curriousity, would a DEO offer be relatively "easier" to attain as opposed to an ROTP or CEOTP offer? I don't ask this specifically of PLT, but of any trade in general?



What I understood from my CFRC is that having a university degree puts you a few points (I have no clue how many) ahead of people applying though CEOTP. I think a DEO's GPA is also concidered in the factor, and higher GPA's can get more points. When things get competetive, a few points more than the other applicant will come in handy.


----------



## Meridian

Hi all,

I'm wondering if there is someone out there in recruiting land that can source the appropriate regulation covering CEOTP commissioning dates and thus the basic pay (and preferably net basic pay for a single mbr) for someone under CEOTP at incentive 0 (with no previous service).

Reason I ask is that I've been given different answers from different recruiters on this, and a DEO friend who is on his PhIV now has a coursemate who is CEOTP who is still an Ocdt,  but on his BOTP had  least 3 CEOTP coursemates commission with him.    Sounds like grievances in the making, but maybe it all makes sense somehow.

The actual commission to me is less important "immediately" (I'd rather earn it through the courses) than the 2LT pay.  

In fairness, I did ask this question in the past, and there was no clear verdict.   

[Edit] The following Instruction is all I can find and is somewhat vague in its use of "basic officer training" and "current promotion policy" 


> All candidates enrolled in the CEOTP shall hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt until completion of *basic officer training*, unless initially granted higher rank, Incentive Pay Category, or Time Counting for Promotion in recognition of previous service or training.
> Commissioning and promotion shall be in accordance with *current CF promotion policy  *


http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0905_admhrmil_e.asp

Any help is much appreciated!


----------



## exgunnertdo

Another point is the degree.  You can't be commissioned until you are granted your degree - maybe the person on Ph IV as an OCdt is still finishing his/her degree?  The degree would certainly fall into "current CF promotion policy."  DEO all have their degrees when they do BOTP, hence the commissioning on graduation.  CEOTP are potentially still in the process of completing degrees, and depending how their program progressed, may be eligible for commissioning at varying times in their program?  Just guessing.


----------



## bcrawford

Thats a logical guess, but according to the documentation on CEOTP, I don't think its the cause the delays in commissioning that Meridian has mentioned.



> The new CEOTP retains the CF’s commitment to the degreed officer corps concept, but with one
> important difference – officer candidates used to be required to hold a university degree before
> they could be commissioned. In October 2005, however, Assistant Deputy Minister (Human
> Resources – Military) Vice-Admiral Greg Jarvis announced the creation of the new officer
> production plan that allows officer candidates to be commissioned and to train in and be
> employed in their military occupations while they earn their degrees.


Source: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/CEOTP_en.pdf

[EDIT: Mar 11 2006] to include source of quoted text


----------



## kincanucks

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> Another point is the degree.  You can't be commissioned until you are granted your degree - maybe the person on Ph IV as an OCdt is still finishing his/her degree?  The degree would certainly fall into "current CF promotion policy."  DEO all have their degrees when they do BOTP, hence the commissioning on graduation.  CEOTP are potentially still in the process of completing degrees, and depending how their program progressed, may be eligible for commissioning at varying times in their program?  Just guessing.



Having a degree or not has nothing to do with promotion from OCdt to 2Lt to Lt to Capt.

_All candidates enrolled in the CEOTP shall hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt until completion of basic officer training, unless initially granted higher rank, Incentive Pay Category, or Time Counting for Promotion in recognition of previous service or training. _ 

Meridian you are right it is slightly vague as to what basic officer training is.  I came up through OCTP(M), which is very similar to CEOTP, promotion to 2Lt and higher occurred upon completion of phase training.  So perhaps the other three have previous service?


----------



## PO2FinClk

Although not completly in my lane of expertise, I believe that exgunnertdo is quite accurate. Reading further in the ref (CMP Instr 09/05) para 5.1 denotes the obligation for CEOTP's to obtain a degree. If you browse to the bottom of the CMP Instr you will see all the applicable refs, although CFAO 11-06 in not clear on this issue. Your enrolment message should also be consulted as it would provide further details into this issue.

What bcrawford mentions could provide you with what you require, however it only mentions that "the creation" of a new plan. It however does not mention if the plan was approved nor can it be found at this point in time. I would summise that it is a work in progress amongst many other change initiatives.

All that I can suggest is to send a request for clarification through your ULO which will then be in a position to staff it accordingly.


----------



## kincanucks

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> Although not completly in my lane of expertise, I believe that exgunnertdo is quite accurate. Reading further in the ref (CMP Instr 09/05) para 5.1 denotes the obligation for CEOTP's to obtain a degree. If you browse to the bottom of the CMP Instr you will see all the applicable refs, although CFAO 11-06 in not clear on this issue. Your enrolment message should also be consulted as it would provide further details into this issue.
> 
> What bcrawford mentions could provide you with what you require, however it only mentions that "the creation" of a new plan. It however does not mention if the plan was approved nor can it be found at this point in time. I would summise that it is a work in progress amongst many other change initiatives.
> 
> All that I can suggest is to send a request for clarification through your ULO which will then be in a position to staff it accordingly.



Not arguing that CEOTPs eventually need a degree but you can't tell me that they won't be promoted to 2Lt to Lt to Capt without it.  CEOTPs have a maximum of nine years to get a degree so there is a possibilty they won't get promoted for nine years?


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Not that it is concrete answer, but I have asked the same question to several 2nd LTs who are currently on SLT or OJT. According to them, "everybody" was promoted to 2nd LT upon completing IAP/BOTP. "Everybody" being those who were entered under CEOTP. Now, just a little disclaimer, I was only in touch with Pilots. I doubt that the occupation should matter, but that is just an opinion.

Good luck - I know you have been hunting this one down for a while now. I'm with you, I am not sure why this is such a grey area. If you need some more info, want to compare notes, or make each other's heads spin on the subject; feel free to send me a PM.


----------



## Rowshambow

My CEOTP message said "promoted to 2Lt upon completion of BOTP, backdated to 30 April 07" and I do not have a degree. You do not need a degree to be promoted (up to Captain) as some others pointed out. The CEOTP program says that you "have to be working towards a degree by the end of your 25 years of service" So it doesn't say you need a degree at all, just work towards one. From what the BPSO told me, was that the CO has the say if you haven't completed it at the end of your contract, he/she can advise to have your contract extended etc.
As for your specific question Meridian, you should check your message, I am sure that's where you might find the answers. Have your clerk go over it with you with a fine tooth comb. Good luck!


----------



## benny88

They've finally put together a decent website for this program, which allows pilots to attend the University of Western Ontario and attain various flying licenses through Empire Aviation here in London. It's a great program, anyone who has further questions can PM me, or post here, there's another CAM student/grad or two floating around.


Commercial Aviation Management website: http://mos.uwo.ca/cam/

CAM and ROTP: http://empireaviation.com/web/index.php/cam/rotp

PDF from the CF recruiting site: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/CAMP_en.pdf




PS for mods- I suppose this could go in Aircrew Trades, but I feel it's more relevant here. Move it if you wish, cheers.


----------



## Redeye121

Yeah first of all thank you for posting this. I found the links to be quite helpful. I have been looking into this program for some time now, but still have a few questions. The program as I have read is sponsored by the CF, which is a bonus. The academic part there, how good is it? I mean this by is it just a useless degree or can you actually apply it to good use say in 20-25 years after one has retired from the CF? My final question is, I am currently in Belgium and will be returning to Canada in 2009. On the Transport Canada site it tells me that there is a doctor in Belgium listed on there. Does that mean that if I went to him I wouldn't need to get another one upon arriving in Canada? I look forward to your response.

Cheers
Red


----------



## benny88

The degree that grads of this program hold is a BMOS (Business Management and Organizational Studies) which I think is a very good and applicable degree. In addition to standard economics, math, and business courses, you get to take cool stuff like History of Aviation in Canada, Aviation Law, and Airport Urban Planning. 
   The program is quite new, so the first graduates are just percolating into the work force now, but from what I hear they are having success. The combo of a Biz degree plus specific aviation industry courses I imagine makes it fairly attractive to civilian aviation employers.
   About your Transport Canada Medical and getting it in Belgium, I wouldn't know. If he's a TransCan certified Doc, I would guess that would be fine, but I recommend calling someone at Transport Canada and asking the question there. Good luck!


----------



## Redeye121

OK thanks for the quick reply, and helpful answers. I do agree that the program would be good especially to employers in the aviation business. As for the Transport Canada medical yeah I will have to call the guy up in the near future.

Once again thanks 

Red


----------



## Meridian

Thanks all for the feedback.

I'm tending to lean towards what Kincanucks touched on -  previous service.   I've heard frequently that this is not the case,  (and my friend seemed to believe that the three did NOT have previous service)  but the only CEOTP pers on here who have ever claimed being promoted 2LT after BOTP were pers with previous service.  No other cases have come forward.

The e-mail based answer I got from the CFRC was equally vague in that "it depends" on previous service.  This doesn't seem like a hard and fast set of rules to me... so how does the CF ensure this is done fairly?

Ref: "Check your message".   That's just the thing.  I don't have one.   

I'm keenly seeking to apply as soon as CEOTP opens up again (hopefully it does), as I was sidelined last year when the last position was offered while I was still waiting my med file from NDHQ.    However,  I want to be sure I can afford financially the potential 2+ years in the training system at whatever rank I'll be sitting at.    Thus, I'd love to not waste the CFRG's time in processing an app that I have to say no to.  Seems however that its the only way.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> but the only CEOTP pers on here who have ever claimed being promoted 2LT after BOTP were pers with previous service.


Several of the contacts I mentioned earlier did not have previous service. Some had either Reserve or Cadet experience, but not all of them.


----------



## militarymum

My son has applied and been accepted to this program at UWO.  This is one of several options that he is contemplating while patiently awaiting a decision on his application to RMC.  We visited the campus during this past weekend's open house and he spoke with senior students of the program.  They were helpful in answering his questions and enthusiastic in their praise for the program as well as excited about their futures.  An ROTP student described his summer employment which was different than the non-ROTP student who worked for Transport Canada during his summers.  Currently the most senior class is small, only 8 anticipate graduating.  Attrition may be high, due to the cost or perhaps, like other flight training, very high standards with higher than average stress.  Either way, it appears that those who stick to it are happy with the program and pleased to have the hours under their belt.


----------



## Rowshambow

Sorry Meridian I thought you had a message already. There were a 4 people on my BOTP that were direct of the street, that were CEOTP and had no previous exp. They were promoted to 2Lt as soon as BOTP was done.

Kincan,  I don't have a degree, and am a 2Lt, I will be promoted to Lt in April (already talked to Career Mangler), and Capt 2 years after that. No you do not need a degree to be promoted, remember they used to also have a program that you came in from high school, with no degree and could still climb the ranks. There is a Maj in my Regiment that is now doing his distance learning getting his BA. We are taking some of the same courses, he has to get his degree to go further (and will be a LCOL) in the future. I see what you are trying to say, but it's just not the way it is. There is little reading on the req of CEOTP, and not many people know much about it. All I have is what I have been told by my career mangler, BPSO, and my messages.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

> remember they used to also have a program that you came in from high school, with no degree and could still climb the ranks.



Wasn't that the <a href="http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-26_e.asp"> Officer Cadet Training Plan </a>? I actually spoke with a Herc Pilot and a former Aurora (now E-3 Pilot) who came in through this plan in the 90's. (Neither one of them have their degree in case you were interested.) According to Annex C on that site, you must have reached a certain level of training before you were commissioned unlike the current CEOTP plan.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
CLASSIFICATION     TRAINING COMPLETED
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
ARMD .........  Armoured Officer Classification Training Phase IV
ARTY .........  Artillery Officer Classification Training Phase IV
INF ..........  Infantry Officer Classification Training Phase IV
ANAV .........  Air Navigation, Basic (Wings Standard)
PLT ..........  Pilot Training, Basic (Wings Standard)
ATC ..........  Air Traffic Controller Basic Course
AWC ..........  Air Weapons Controller Basic Course
PADM .........  Basic Personnel Administration Officer Course
LOG ..........  Basic Logistics Officer Course (plus one
                specialty course in Transportation, Finance
                or Supply)

MARS .........  Maritime Surface and Sub-Surface Officer
                Classification Course Phase IV (Land)

SEC ..........  Basic Officer Security Services Course.


However, when you look up CEOTP, you will find that: (just a second, I have to switch to the DWAN).

_4.6 Promotion and Career

Under the CEOTP

All candidates enrolled in the CEOTP shall hold the rank of OCdt/NCdt until completion of basic officer training, unless initially granted higher rank, Incentive Pay Category, or Time Counting for Promotion in recognition of previous service or training. 
Commissioning and promotion shall be in accordance with current CF promotion policy _ 

Maybe some of the confusion is between the two plans. They are similar yet very different in their promotion policies. It still doesn't explain why some are being commissioned and others are not.


----------



## Meridian

MG said:
			
		

> Maybe some of the confusion is between the two plans. They are similar yet very different in their promotion policies. It still doesn't explain why some are being commissioned and others are not.



Nope.   My follow-up email from the CFRG just got a response essentially telling me the only way I'll ever know is to get an enrolment message, and decide to accept or refuse.  

Seems kind of silly to me, and I can't imagine how its fair to those not getting comissions right away.


----------



## infanteer-it

Having gone through the training system with a bunch of CEOTP who got their comission shortly after BOTP, and having a pretty good guess who the OCdt you are talking about is.... lets just say he is well... an anomaly.


----------



## Meridian

infanteer-it said:
			
		

> Having gone through the training system with a bunch of CEOTP who got their comission shortly after BOTP, and having a pretty good guess who the OCdt you are talking about is.... lets just say he is well... an anomaly.



I'm confused as to who you are referring to and what exactly you are trying to say....


----------



## Rowshambow

MG, Yes I think you are right, I think it was something like that, as for the certain level of training, they had to be qualifies their trade before promotion, I know phase 4 for Armoured is the Troop leader course. So basically you had to be qualified the trade before promotion. I wonder how many were "backdated" so basically after there phase 4 they were promoted to 2Lt and simultaneously Lt, due to time in? I also wonder why some are promoted and some not, I guess only the person holding the message knows for sure!


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> MG, Yes I think you are right, I think it was something like that, as for the certain level of training, they had to be qualifies their trade before promotion, I know phase 4 for Armoured is the Troop leader course. So basically you had to be qualified the trade before promotion. I wonder how many were "backdated" so basically after there phase 4 they were promoted to 2Lt and simultaneously Lt, due to time in? I also wonder why some are promoted and some not, I guess only the person holding the message knows for sure!



Well, for some Pilots, I understand the wait was 2-4 years before they had their wings depending on how things were moving.

In Meridian's case, he has really searched for a concrete answer and has yet to receive one. Personally, if the recruiting centre informed me that they only way to find out was to apply and read the offer - then so be it! What else can he do? I don't feel he would be "wasting anybody's time" especially considering the amount of research he has performed on this topic and I believe I can say over the years now. I think what he is doing is responsible; it is just unfortunate he can't put this to bed with a concrete answer. Having said that, what if he received a negative answer and it was incorrect? 

Chances are because he applied last year, he should only have to resolve his meds and update his interview. At that point, I would address my concerns with my MCC. I actually recall going over the pay scale with my MCC during my interview; it is perfect opportunity to table his concerns at that point.

Good luck Meridian. Based on the replies you received from the recruiting centre, I would submit the application. Outside of looking through a crystal ball, I think you have done all you can.


----------



## Rowshambow

Yes it's too bad there are no definitive answers. If this is going to be an ongoing program, maybe they will come out with some regulations regarding it. As MG said, good luck with your decision!


----------



## Meridian

Much thanks to all...  I guess the point will all be mute if CEOTP does not open for the combat arms trades this coming FY.  I'll be surprised, but you never know.


----------



## maniac779

I am by no means an expert, so don't quote me,  but I joined under CEOTP and have been doing OJT at a recruiting center for the past year.

First, WRT to promotion... Chances are you'll get promoted to 2Lt on completion of BOTP. That seems to be how they are doing it these days.

Secondly, WRT to pay. Depending on your incentives, if you are coming in under CEOTP with no former service, you'll most likely be paid under CBI 204.211(7)(a)(i) which indicates Level B of the table, which is as follows.

B
Basic 3224
IPC 1 3413
IPC 2 3737
IPC 3 4066

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/includes/cbi_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=6&docid=52

Hope that helps.


----------



## Meridian

maniac779 said:
			
		

> I am by no means an expert, so don't quote me,  but I joined under CEOTP and have been doing OJT at a recruiting center for the past year.
> 
> First, WRT to promotion... Chances are you'll get promoted to 2Lt on completion of BOTP. That seems to be how they are doing it these days.
> 
> Secondly, WRT to pay. Depending on your incentives, if you are coming in under CEOTP with no former service, you'll most likely be paid under CBI 204.211(7)(a)(i) which indicates Level B of the table, which is as follows.
> 
> B
> Basic 3224
> IPC 1 3413
> IPC 2 3737
> IPC 3 4066
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/includes/cbi_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=6&docid=52
> 
> Hope that helps.



More fuel to the fire, thanks   

I am aware of the GROSS pay rates... but what is really important is NET (takeaway) pay.   I have an idea for an OCdt though, as there is a net pay sheet I received from the CFRC for a basic private and that is about 80$ less than an OCdt.     Amounts to 1330$ a month.


----------



## maniac779

Well thats going to depend on your location. When I moved out of Quebec, my take home went up substantially.

However, lucky for you, I was paid incorrectly for my first year in the RegF under the very table I have mentioned.

After R&Q, I took home about $800 every two weeks in St. Jean.


----------



## benny88

militarymum said:
			
		

> My son has applied and been accepted to this program at UWO.  This is one of several options that he is contemplating while patiently awaiting a decision on his application to RMC.  We visited the campus during this past weekend's open house and he spoke with senior students of the program.  They were helpful in answering his questions and enthusiastic in their praise for the program as well as excited about their futures.  An ROTP student described his summer employment which was different than the non-ROTP student who worked for Transport Canada during his summers.  Currently the most senior class is small, only 8 anticipate graduating.  Attrition may be high, due to the cost or perhaps, like other flight training, very high standards with higher than average stress.  Either way, it appears that those who stick to it are happy with the program and pleased to have the hours under their belt.



  Glad to hear he was accepted and that you got some good feedback from some CAM students. Fire away with any questions if I can help.


----------



## Rowshambow

not to mention, that if you are serving already, you should keep the same pay!


----------



## Meridian

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> not to mention, that if you are serving already, you should keep the same pay!



Agreed, however I am not a serving member.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

Is the CEOTP still closed to all Cbt Arms trades?


----------



## derael

Until the new numbers come out in April, yes they are...and after that who knows...I guess thats what the numbers will tell us.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

A friend of mine was accepted CEOTP today for Armoroed ...  ???


----------



## kincanucks

_Armoroed_?

Perhaps Armour.


----------



## Meridian

Mack674 said:
			
		

> A friend of mine was accepted CEOTP today for Armoroed ...  ???



Was this a serving member?  They have different dates and numbers from what I understand.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

Yes, reservist - they leave for botp / cap in may or something and trades trg in sept
Im a reservist that came home from tour in august, im interested in going Infantry Officer


----------



## Meridian

Mack674 said:
			
		

> Yes, reservist - they leave for botp / cap in may or something and trades trg in sept
> Im a reservist that came home from tour in august, im interested in going Infantry Officer


 
I believe the date already passed for this year's CEOTPs from the serving ranks...  I think there is a thread I saw somewhere around her mentioning that....  try a search.


----------



## DrRoboto

I can't tell you about any regulations, but I can tell what I know about myself and other people in my platoon.

I am in my first week of botp, just finished IAP.  I am ceotp pilot.  I was a reservist fro 99-01, and a civilian from 01 until I started IAP, to my knowledge my reservist time was useful for me getting selected for the program, but I don't get any credit for it now that I'm in, pay or otherwise.  I am receiving OCdt scale A, and will be promoted to 2lt on completion of BOTP, (1 month from now).  

There are a few other ceotp members in my platoon, one of them infantry, and all of them are getting the same payscales, and will be promoted 2lt upon BOTP completion.  I know pitifully little about ceotp past what I've just told you.  I can't see them kicking out a trained pilot, (or any other trained officer with 12 years experience) after his/her first 12 year contract is over because I haven't completed a degree.

I just hope my career manager will know what the hell is going on when I get out of St Jean...

Robert


----------



## Meridian

Dr Roboto - 

Thanks, this is definitely further supporting a lot of the information I'm getting from other members "informally".  It would appear that the CFRG is referencing the old OCTP plan as there doesn't seem to be a public document out there clarifying promotion that anyone knows of, including the CFRG.

As previously discussed, I'll submit my app as soon as CEOTP opens (wish they would post this in an easy to see manner - calling the CFRC all the time is a bit silly) and we'll see what the offer states specifically.


----------



## HopefulServant

Hi guys,

I've spent the last couple of days reading over all the CEOTP information I've been able to draw out of your site. I've been running searches like a madman but given im in the Arctic my internet is ridiculously slow, like it takes a minute to load between pages.

I have a few CEOTP specific questions-

1) If I send in my application RIGHT on April 1st for the program, and I complete my testing at the end of June, since that will be my first chance to leave my current soul crushing isolation, what happens after that? I guess what Im asking is- is that a similar application to the bulk of CEOTP applicants? How many BOTC/IAP courses does St.Jean do a year?? 

2) Is selection similar to the RCMP where you compete with applicants in your "region"? Like is there a quota for each province and territory? OR does selection happen at the national level?

3) can you do parts of your process in different areas? Like...in June I would be in Edmonton. But my application is through NWT. Would be possible to get the testing doen in Edmonton and have it forwarded? Obviously Edmonton might have its own applicants to be concerned about- but im just looking at possibilities.

4) Should I be accepted- I am in the unique position that I am already in treasury board housing. So I will not be entitled to it once I leave my current government job- what do my wife and two dogs do while I am training for a year? Am I entitled to a PMQ somehwere in the country or should I buy a house somewhere down south and then sell it once I find out where I am going?

5) I read the application FAQ, and its says to include a cover letter, so would it be safe to say that any extra information I provided will be taken under consideration? Photocopies of certificates, education plan, that sort've thing?

Obviously, the majority of this can be answered by my file manager, but Im just looking to increase my knowledge base of what I will be going through.
and finally,

Typically, between offer and course loading there is how much time? I cannot leave on two weeks notice as I have to work around the "north" and its inability to anything quickly.

Thank you any help you provide, and I appreciate you guys allowing me to lurk and read. Its gone a long way to keeping me calm. 

I promise not to overkill with smilies.


----------



## mack333

Does anyone know how long the CEOTP recruiting program takes?  I know for NCM it can be as short as just a couple of months.


----------



## jzaidi1

CEOTP length?

As far as I know CEOTP is no different than going DEO with the exception that you are in the middle of a degree and have to complete it during your time in the CF as an officer.

I'm no expert on the subject but I think I have a pretty good grasp of it.  If you are NCM -> officer I think there is another program for that but I could be wrong.

J


----------



## 2fly

mack333 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know how long the CEOTP recruiting program takes?  I know for NCM it can be as short as just a couple of months.



If you are a serving member, from what I have seen it takes 2-4 months from the time the selection board sits.  That is for the regular trades that do not involve the Aircrew Selection Centre.  If you are dealing with the ASC, the process this year is taking 3-6 months from the time the selection board meets due to them sitting again in order to select from the members that have passed the ASC.

If you are a civi, the time it takes to receive a selection message is much longer since there are many more applicants.  In that case, it depends on the number of applicants and can take well over a year.


----------



## Marshall

Hey again,

I was recently contacted by a recruiting officer and i asked a bunch about ROTP. He said if i didnt want to wait a year until '09 then i could try the direct entry method with CEOTP. 

He said the 80+ average rule applies, and I have about a 85-90 (probably around 87-88 in more exact terms) for my ending average this year for G12. I also have a job for over a year and such. Is a mid to high 80's average good to compete? ( i fully understand that averages are only the surface of what CF wants in an officer). Anyone know how many slots are usually in use with CEOTP? (he said its difficult to enter but worth a try). 

Sorry for the questions, heh.

-Marshall


----------



## Eye In The Sky

As a starting point, what occupation(s) are you interested in?  Some Officer trades/occupations are/are not open to CEOTP, which varies from year to year.


----------



## Marshall

Well currently im interested in Officer for Infantry or Armour. He seemed to act like they were apart of the demands? (said these types of roles are usually in a moderate demand)


----------



## -DiRT-

Both Armd and Inf CEOTP will be competitive this year.

As of May 08 there were 3 Armd CEOTP and 7 Inf CEOTP positions nationally.

For CEOTP in addition to having completed Gr 12 at the univ prep level, they are looking well rounded applicants with leadership experiences.

Applications for ROTP 2009 are being accepted now, IMHO a better way to go.  Your call, good luck.


----------



## Marshall

DRT said:
			
		

> Both Armd and Inf CEOTP will be competitive this year.
> 
> As of May 08 there were 3 Armd CEOTP and 7 Inf CEOTP positions nationally.
> 
> For CEOTP in addition to having completed Gr 12 at the univ prep level, they are looking well rounded applicants with leadership experiences.
> 
> Applications for ROTP 2009 are being accepted now, IMHO a better way to go.  Your call, good luck.



thanks for info. And if CEOTP doesnt work then i will be trying for ROTP 2009


----------



## Eye In The Sky

DRT said:
			
		

> Both Armd and Inf CEOTP will be competitive this year.
> As of May 08 there were 3 Armd CEOTP and 7 Inf CEOTP positions nationally.



Are you talking CEOTP positions available thru DMCARM ISS (internal) AND ones that are pushed out to CFRG?  Because I thought there were numbers for each (read people already in looking to CFR, and ones 'off the street' with positions/#s allotted to each.


----------



## Magic

I am faced with a possible dilemma in the ROTP pilot process. I am torn between RMC and UWO C.A.M.P program. For those who may not know the CAMP program is sponsored by the DND to train/streamline pilots into the forces through UWO. 

Does anyone have any experience with UWO and this program versus RMC. Speaking pilot MOC strictly, which one would be more beneficial in the long run? From the research which I have done, you bypass BFT since you receive a Commercial License while attending school and advance to the latter part of training.


----------



## George Wallace

Magic said:
			
		

> I am faced with a possible dilemma in the ROTP pilot process. I am torn between RMC and UWO C.A.M.P program. For those who may not know the CAMP program is sponsored by the DND to train/streamline pilots into the forces through UWO.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with UWO and this program versus RMC. Speaking pilot MOC strictly, which one would be more beneficial in the long run? From the research which I have done, you bypass BFT since you receive a Commercial License while attending school and advance to the latter part of training.



OK.  Time for you to do some research.  CAMP is a brand new program.  So new, you are probably on the very first course.  If you really want information, you should go back to your CFRC and talk to them, then do some research into UWO's program.  

Does that help?


----------



## benny88

Update with a new handout relating to ROTP. This was put together by the university administration (with the help of yours truly ) and approved by an officer at Sudbury CFRC.


----------



## benny88

You're not on the first course. Check out this thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/71815.0.html 

PM me or post in that thread for CAM specific questions, there's a couple of us on this site. Cheers.


----------



## Magic

PM sent ...


----------



## George Wallace

:  

Here.  Merged with a topic started by benny88 quite some time ago.  Now we have one topic, not two, and I will merge any others I find, so you won't have to do too much work.


----------



## George Wallace

btt


----------



## spagyi

My question would be about th application deadlines. I contacted CFRC Toronto, but they kept confusing me with the RMC applicants. I have done high school in Hungary, but I am a Canadian citizen, and I applied to the UWO for CAMP and got accepted. I applied to ROTP-CAM in January `09, and they didn't open my file until march. They are telling me that I need to get a high schhol transcript equivalency. That could not be possible, because if my transcripts were not equivalent with the Canadian standards, I could not have gotten into UWO. I'll be going back to Canada in may where I'll have my aptitude test. They still don't know if I should be doing an interview and the medical, because they say I would probably not get into the program this year.
I would really need some advice about what I should do now, because I can't afford the school on my own, and I have years of hard work in it.
Thank You in advance.


----------



## Zoomie

Spending time out of Canada will not make your application go easily.  The UWO program is not a guarantee for all applicants - the CF will decide if you go there, or to RMC.

If the CF recruiting system is asking for high school equivalencies - go and get it.


----------



## George Wallace

spagyi said:
			
		

> My question would be about th application deadlines. I contacted CFRC Toronto, but they kept confusing me with the RMC applicants. I have done high school in Hungary, but I am a Canadian citizen, and I applied to the UWO for CAMP and got accepted. I applied to ROTP-CAM in January `09, and they didn't open my file until march. They are telling me that I need to get a high schhol transcript equivalency. That could not be possible, because if my transcripts were not equivalent with the Canadian standards, I could not have gotten into UWO. I'll be going back to Canada in may where I'll have my aptitude test. They still don't know if I should be doing an interview and the medical, because they say I would probably not get into the program this year.
> I would really need some advice about what I should do now, because I can't afford the school on my own, and I have years of hard work in it.
> Thank You in advance.



What type of School did you attend in Hungary?  Was it an 'International School' for dependents of Foreign Service personnel?  I know that there are at least two types of these schools, one I believe run by the Americans and another by the French, who will be able to give you equivalencies.  It is something that you will have to investigate.  This is a matter that many children whose parents were on Foreign Service for a Government Dept have faced before, so if you are lucky, one such person may be on this site and come to your aid.


----------



## spagyi

Thank You for posting. I attended a regular Hungarian high school, only at the end of each schoolyear did I go to Hungary to take exams. My parents are not foreign serving members, I just chose the Hungarian school for its higher level of education.
I would like to ask about the application deadline for ROTP-CAM, because I am confused about that date. I was told it is in January, but I have heard different versions, therefore I found it best to apply in January.
I have had some confusion in the CFRC regarding my application (they confused me with the RMC applicants).
Thank You for the post once again.


----------



## benny88

spagyi said:
			
		

> I would like to ask about the application deadline for ROTP-CAM, because I am confused about that date. I was told it is in January, but I have heard different versions, therefore I found it best to apply in January.



Something much better answered by those in the University Registrar's Office than anyone here. If you applied in January, what are you worried about?


----------



## Blackadder1916

spagyi said:
			
		

> . . . I have done high school in Hungary, but I am a Canadian citizen, and I applied to the UWO for CAMP and got accepted.  . . . .  *They are telling me that I need to get a high schhol transcript equivalency.* That could not be possible, because if my transcripts were not equivalent with the Canadian standards, I could not have gotten into UWO. I'll be going back to Canada in may where I'll have my aptitude test. They still don't know if I should be doing an interview and the medical, because they say I would probably not get into the program this year. . . .



As you stated that you are already accepted into UWO, I'm assuming that you attained a "Gimnázium Érettségi Bizonyítvány (Secondary School Leaving Certificate) since that is the admission requirement for an international student who was educated in Hungary as noted at International Admissions Requirements for CAMP.

While many Canadian universities which actively attract foreign students have adopted their own policies for school equivalencies, the Canadian Forces (like most other public or private employers) have not and when judging the educational background of potential members rely on outside "Credential Assessment and Qualification Recognition Services" such as those listed here (mid-way down the page).  It would be your responsibility to obtain such an assessment and equivalency for your Hungarian education as requested by the recruiting centre.

Just because UWO deems you meet the minimum requirements to enter their program doesn't mean that the CF has to accept you.  Their admission requirements are just that and only that - "admission requirements"; the CF's standards (evaluating much more than simply high school graduation) are higher.


----------



## spagyi

Thank You for Your help, You have been very helpful.


----------



## benny88

An update for those interested in this program:


    UWO's CAM program has severed it's ties with Maylan Flight Academy for a variety of reasons. Some of you who have been keeping track of the situation will know some of the details and reasons, but what's important for new applicants to know is that we're now flying with Diamond Flight Centre London. We've just started but the equipment and facilities appear to be top notch. 
   As always, anyone with questions pertaining to the new arrangement, or the program in general; feel free to PM me.


----------



## Magic

This sounds like promising news for me since I will be attending the CAMP program this September. Any details on the fleet of aircraft which students will be flying for their PPL, CPL and multi ?


----------



## SkyHeff

Looks like pure Diamond's.


----------



## benny88

Magic said:
			
		

> This sounds like promising news for me since I will be attending the CAMP program this September. Any details on the fleet of aircraft which students will be flying for their PPL, CPL and multi ?




The majority of training will take place on a DA-20, and that hasn't changed. But we will be re-introducing some time on the DA-40 with the G1000 setup, and our twin time will be on DA-42 Twinstars (huzzah!), rather than Piper Seminoles.


----------



## Pat_Y

I was in a 42 yesterday..... tons of fun. I was holding a 60 degree angle of bank turn with out no problem at all. ;D ;D


----------



## SkyHeff

Just found out I've been accepted into CAM, most likely into year 2. What a load of stress off my shoulders!

Now to get the official paperwork all cleared up. Anyone here going into year 2 in September?

On that note, to any CAM students... has anyone had or know someone who went in with their PPL? Do you go right onto CPL training or skip a year of flying and do CPL in third year?


----------



## benny88

Heff18 said:
			
		

> Now to get the official paperwork all cleared up. Anyone here going into year 2 in September?


  
  You could start introducing yourself to this group: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=30699667050&ref=ts




			
				Heff18 said:
			
		

> On that note, to any CAM students... has anyone had or know someone who went in with their PPL? Do you go right onto CPL training or skip a year of flying and do CPL in third year?



   Yes, I know a few people who had their PPL. I can't comment on how it will be NEXT year, because of the switch in flight schools, but these people were credited for their PPL pending a check ride with a CFI. They still had to attend Ground School and PGI's to meet the requirements of the ICPL. Unfortunately, they did not start a whole lot of CPL flying, they mostly flew just occasionally to stay current and build X-country hours. They weren't too happy about it, but it makes sense now because we're all even and can start our CPL together.


  Good luck!


----------



## SkyHeff

Even though I'll be entering year 2, I have to pay both year 1 + year 2's flight costs, so I better be getting something for that money! (Hopefully the CF picks up the year 1 costs  ). To this point I've only ever flown a 172 so I'm looking forward to trying out the Diamonds.


----------



## benny88

Heff18 said:
			
		

> Even though I'll be entering year 2, I have to pay both year 1 + year 2's flight costs, so I better be getting something for that money! (Hopefully the CF picks up the year 1 costs  ). To this point I've only ever flown a 172 so I'm looking forward to trying out the Diamonds.



  Sorry this is so delayed...dereliction of duty on my part. Seeing as you don't fly in first year, they just spread the 3 years of flight costs across 4 years, so you're not getting hosed. And the CF will pick up your costs. The Diamonds have been real nice for me so far, hope to meet you next year.


----------



## grandpa

Forgive me if I have done this incorrectly but after all I am a Granpa!
I am looking for some information to help me in my "cheerleading" role for my granddaughter.   She is interested in becoming a pilot just like her dear old grandpa wanted to be (bad eyes ruled out any aircrew in those days).
On the Forces.ca website I read " Regular Officer Training Plan – Pilots (CAMP) The Commercial Aviation Management Program (CAMP) at the University of Western Ontario is the only university aviation program sponsored by the Canadian Forces Regular Officers Training Plan".
Do they mean the only "civilian" university or is it that she can not attend RMC or CMR and still become a pilot.
I have a million other questions, as does she, but I will leave it at that for the time being seeing as I may be doing everything completley wrong on this forum anyway.

My thanks in advance for any help given


----------



## SupersonicMax

That's the only AVIATION university program sponsored by the CF.  RMC and other universities are good, but she won't have and aviation degree at the end.  But you don't need one to be a pilot.


----------



## dimsum

grandpa said:
			
		

> Forgive me if I have done this incorrectly but after all I am a Granpa!
> I am looking for some information to help me in my "cheerleading" role for my granddaughter.   She is interested in becoming a pilot just like her dear old grandpa wanted to be (bad eyes ruled out any aircrew in those days).
> On the Forces.ca website I read " Regular Officer Training Plan – Pilots (CAMP) The Commercial Aviation Management Program (CAMP) at the University of Western Ontario is the only university aviation program sponsored by the Canadian Forces Regular Officers Training Plan".
> Do they mean the only "civilian" university or is it that she can not attend RMC or CMR and still become a pilot.
> I have a million other questions, as does she, but I will leave it at that for the time being seeing as I may be doing everything completley wrong on this forum anyway.
> 
> My thanks in advance for any help given



The difference between the CAM program and any other ROTP CF program (in a civilian university) is that the flight training is included in the school years.  A CAM graduate will bypass Primary Flight Training as well.


----------



## benny88

Dimsum said:
			
		

> A CAM graduate will bypass Primary Flight Training as well.



   And become irresistable to the opposite sex.


----------



## lornscotpter

In regards to ROTP subsidisation, must you apply to the University of Western CAMP first before applying to the CF reg force for ROTP, or is it the other way around. As well I am in the reserve forces, would this make a differance to my application.


----------



## George Wallace

benny88  in Reply # 8  posted this information:



> Commercial Aviation Management (CAM) Program Sponsorship for Pilots
> 
> What is ROTP?
> ROTP is the Regular Officer Training Program offered by the Canadian Forces. It is a subsidized education plan for applicants to apply to any ordinary degree program at either RMC (Royal Military College) or at a recognized and pre-authorized civilian university.
> 
> What is CAM?
> The Commercial Aviation Management (CAM) program at the University of Western Ontario is the only university aviation program sponsored by the Canadian Forces Regular Officers Training Plan (ROTP). CAM is a specialized ROTP module, subsidizing successful candidates for their university education and flight training. CAM is a highly competitive program in which only a few candidates are selected from across Canada.
> 
> Why CAM?
> The CAM program will equip students with an extensive set of skills and prepare them for a career as a Pilot in the Canadian Forces.
> 
> Through the Bachelor of Management and Organizational Studies (BMOS), applicants will gain the capacity for critical thinking, an ability to adapt to change, and strong problem-solving and communication skills. At the same time, they will have the opportunity to study advanced aviation topics, accounting, finance, marketing, and operations management as well as liberal arts courses in the Faculty of Social Science. The result is a unique education experience that is ideal preparation for employment as a Pilot and Officer in the Canadian Forces.
> 
> Students will graduate with a four-year Bachelor of Management and Organizational Studies Degree.
> 
> Graduates of the Commercial Aviation Management Program will be sponsored by the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) to take the flight training operation and will be licensed to fly commercial aircraft. Those completing the flight option in years 2, 3 and 4 of the BMOS program receive more than 400 hours of integrated ground school instruction and 260 hours of flight and simulator time, and earn the following:
> 
> - Private Pilot Licence
> - Commercial Pilot Licence
> - Multi-Engine Rating
> - Group 1 Instrument Rating
> 
> Flight training in years 2, 3, and 4 operates from September until June, and is conducted in accordance with the new Transport Canada Integrated Commercial Pilot Licence program.
> 
> Who qualifies?
> The applicant must meet all requirements for ROTP pilots and be enrolled in the Bachelor of Management and Organizational Studies with the specialization of Commercial Aviation Management at the University of Western Ontario. No alternative aviation programs are permitted. (ie. RMC, Seneca, Waterloo etc…)
> 
> 
> Key differences between the ROTP and the CAM application process
> 
> ROTP Process
> When an applicant applies for the pilot occupation with ROTP they are processed for Air Operations rather than the specific trade of Pilot.
> Step 1:
> Applicant must complete an initial interview, medical and aptitude test at their respective recruiting centre
> Step 2:
> Applicant must pass the aircrew selection held in Trenton, Ontario
> Step 3:
> Applicant must achieve a military medical Air Factor of 1 at the Defence Research and Development Centre (DRDC) in Toronto
> Step 4:
> Applicant must successfully compete their first year at their respective university
> 
> NOTE: Depending on the applicant’s performance in their first year, they may or may not qualify for the pilot occupation. Their prior admission into Air Operations may include occupations as Pilot, Navigator or Aerospace Control
> 
> CAM ROTP Process
> When an applicant applies for the pilot occupation with CAM they are processed specifically as a Pilot rather than Air Operations.
> 
> Identical Steps 1 through 3 applies to CAM, Step 4 is what sets the CAM and the ROTP selection process apart.
> 
> Step 4:
> If successful the applicant will be 1 out of a few applicants across Canada to be admitted into CAM where they are enrolled as pilots and not in Air Operations.
> 
> NOTE: if successful, they are now guaranteed their first choice of occupation (Pilot).
> 
> Benefits
> Candidates of ROTP CAM will receive their education in the BMOS CAM program at the University of Western Ontario completely subsidized. This amounts to approximately $5000 a year, totalling approximately $20,000 over the four year degree. Candidates will receive flight training subsidized by the Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), which amounts to approximately $15,000 a year, totalling approximately $60,000 over the four years. Mandatory books and supplies are also subsidized for the candidates. Candidates will also receive an annual salary of approximately $17,000 a year totally approximately $70,000 over the four years as an officer cadet. The time spent at the university as an Officer Cadet is pensionable and additional benefits include complete Canadian Forces health/dental care and 4 weeks leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Career Path
> During the candidate’s first summer as an Officer Cadet, they will complete Basic Military Officer Qualifications (BMOQ). This must be completed prior to the onset of their second year of study. The following summers, the Officer Cadet will receive employment or on-the-job-training.
> 
> At the successful completion of the BMOS Commercial Aviation Management degree, the Officer Cadet will be sent directly to Basic Flight Training in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, bypassing the Primary Flight training stage in Portage la Prairie, Manitoba that all other ROTP pilots must attend. After receiving their wings, pilots will be assigned to a squadron to continue their career as a pilot in the Canadian Forces.
> 
> NOTE: Candidates must complete a minimum obligatory period of eight years following their graduation before they are allowed release from the Canadian Forces.
> 
> Points to note:
> Once at the University of Western Ontario they must remember they are no longer students but rather Officer Cadets for the Canadian Forces hence they must conduct themselves in an orderly manner that respects the Canadian Forces. They are not permitted to accept other employment as their tuition is subsidized and they earn a salary.
> 
> Quick Facts
> •	CAM is specialized ROTP module
> •	Only 6 applications for CAM were accepted nationwide for processing in 2008.
> •	Total Value of scholarship = $150,000
> o	$80,000/4years for tuition, flying, books/supplies
> o	$70,000/4 years of earned salary
> •	CAM applicants are guaranteed Pilot occupation
> •	By-pass primary flight training
> •	Great way to pay for university and flight training and build aviation experience
> •	Time spent at the University of Western Ontario as an Officer Cadet is pensionable time
> •	CF health/dental care


----------



## benny88

New course website at flyuwo.com

The site is still in the works, and there's nothing too new on there, it's just up-to-date and more concise. As always, post or PM me if you want to know more about the program.


----------



## daindophia

Does anybody know the availability of ROTP through the Science and Aviation program at University of Waterloo? It is a University Degree program, but I haven't found any information on it in the forum.


----------



## aviator22

i'm in science and aviation at UW, 2nd year.  ROTP isn't offered the same way as it is for the CAM program.  as far as i know, we don't have anyone in ROTP, although I know a few people who are applying, although due to a backlog in pilot training i've heard very few people are being accepted. PM me if you have any questions


----------



## SkyHeff

If you were to be accepted for ROTP, they would subsidize your tuition and related fees, but not the flight training. UWO's CAM is the only fully subsidized flight degree.


----------



## daindophia

THANK YOU.
That one reply was the biggest help!


----------



## curious22

New to this site, but am going through ROTP process right now and plan on going to UWO CAM 1st year in Sept 2010. Was told by recruiter that ROTP only covers the undergraduate degree and that the Air Force will no longer cover any related flight costs.
 Anybody else hear this.. Also was told need high 80's percent U level courses to get into CAM>


----------



## SkyHeff

I've heard conflicting reports, but having just talked to recruiter, it appears flight costs are no longer covered.


----------



## curious22

Also heard that intake of pilots will be low or none this year because of backlog of training of existing pilots. Does anyone think that there will a lot less or no ROTP candidates from UWO CAMP? I plan on defintely going to UWO and am working on the marks to get there so maybe I will have to stay in the civie world.


----------



## RobOfstie

Good Day Everyone,

I've been a Lurker on this forum for a number of months now, and have spent many hours searching through old threads.  I have found lots of very usefull information here that has helped me a great deal, and answered many questions I may have had.  

I am aware that the PILOT trade is Closed for 2009 and I am fully aware of the large training backlog in the system.  I understand that CEOTP most likely WON'T be open for the next several years if at all. As well, I do understand that it only opens sporadically when there are shortfalls with the other entry plans.

I joined the Pres last year, and am very much enjoying the military lifestyle, and would like to CT to the Reg force as a pilot within the next several years (after I become fully qualified and give some time back to my unit). 

I've completed 1 year of university.  I have a Private Fixed Wing Pilot's Licence, and am just about to flight test for my Commercial Helicopter Licence.  Upon completion, I will hopefully be Pilot/operating in the oilfield for a few years to build some time, while continuing my Pres training.

So, enough history.  

My questions is this.  The CEOTP (when or if it opens in the future), from what I can surmise, is only open to skilled pilots.  Now, what constitutes a skilled pilot?  I understand a skilled pilot applicant will bypass PFT in portage.  Is that for Commercially rated Fixed wing only?  Or would a Private Fixed wing Pilot (with a commercial Helicopter ticket) be able to bypass this phase as well??  I guess ultimatley I would love to become a pilot in the Reg force.  Hopefully one day the CEOTP will open up again, and I would like to be ready for that.  In the meantime, I will continue with my civvy pilot career/Pres training and play the waiting game.


Also, I haven't seen too many application samples that are similar to my situation.  If anyone out there was in a similar situation as me, I would be interested to hear your experiences and/or thoughts on my competitiveness as an applicant.  

Anyway, thanks very much in advance for all of your time.  

Rob    

Mods -  Wasn't sure if this should be in recruiting or somewhere else.  Feel free to move it if you like.


----------



## benny88

Hey everyone, sorry to have been AWOL from my own thread.

    AFAIK, flight training is still covered. I know mine for sure will be until the end of my program. I spoke to my SEM (Subsidized Education Manager, a Captain who is in charge of all ROTP members and activities in a geographic area)  because I heard those same rumblings and had a friend who was interested in the program. My SEM said that there were no plans to stop offering subsidization for the flight training at this time, but that it was being reviewed because of delays of members getting to postings because of flight training.
     I should catch wind of it fairly early on if something changes, in which case I'll post it, but I recommend continuing with the application. You could also try contacting the CFRC here in London, because I know they're the most knowledgable about the program.

  Good luck


----------



## SkyHeff

I have talked and confirmed with both the SEM and CFRC London that all new CAM applicants will no longer be funded for their flight training. Tuition and books will all be covered as per usual ROTP, but if the flight option is chosen, the costs will have to be covered by the applicant.

The CAM program is currently under going some modification to help diversify the specialization from it's heavy finance focus by offering courses in the human resource management option and opening up the overall course offerings to mix and match with a variety of management & organizational courses in later years.

Nearing the end of my first year, I look forward to what the next few years will bring and can't wait to get back up in the skies next year. 

Good luck to all CAM applicants, and hopefully see you next year!


----------



## Zoomie

CAM was a one-off project by AF-FG to help offset some training backlogs.  While ROTP covered the costs associated with tuition, books, etc.  The Air Force budget covered the cost of the actual flight training.  With current fiscal constraints and the system slowing pulling itself out of the quagmire, the benefits of this course to the AF is not tangible.  In the end - it saved the pilot candidate one course.  Now it's back to PFT in Portage for everyone.


----------



## benny88

Zoomie said:
			
		

> the benefits of this course to the AF is not tangible.  In the end - it saved the pilot candidate one course.



I would like to see statistics for how many CAM grads are successful in BFT and AFT/OTUs versus those with just PFT, but I think you'd be proven right in that the difference would be negligible. I'm glad I entered the program, but that's mostly just because I love to fly, not because I think it will give me an edge as a military pilot.


----------



## benny88

Heff or anyone else;

Any recent news on this out of the Recruiting Group? The University is having a Fall Preview day and they've asked me to come talk to potential applicants about the CAM program. I plan to go anyways because I can still help civilian applicants, but I'd like to have the most up-to-date info regarding ROTP. Let me know ASAP!


Cheers


----------



## SkyHeff

The word is still the same. Applicants can attend the CAM program via ROTP, but flight will not be subsidized. I laughed when the recruiter said applicants can either wait years to get their PFT then BFT slot or pay for a PFT bypass and wait slightly less than years for their BFT slot.


----------



## Otis

Actually ... we were told yesterday that the CAM program is no longer eligible for ROTP ... just like the program at Seneca (though the Seneca program still erroneously advertises on it's website that it is)

Personnel already IN the CAM program under ROTP will continue until completion ... no new applicants will be considered.

Welcome to the CF .. max flex!


----------



## ocanadaperfect

Hi,
Anyone knows how competitive it is if i want to get into the groundside instead of being a pilot and flying a plane etc.?
Because i want to be a air traffic controller instead, actually, i'm not even sure if that's what the groundside's for, the western's website didn't give me enough info
Any help will be greatly appreciated 
Thanks


----------



## SkyHeff

Generally, the only difference between airside and groundside is that the airside takes ground school and does flight training on top of the regular courses taken. That and tuition is a lot cheaper for groundside  8). Both will graduate with a degree featuring the CAM designation (there are multiple paths to achieve this, both for air and ground).

As for competitiveness, I'm not sure if there is any difference between the two. My impression of my class is there are either equal or more groundside students enrolled in it than air.


----------



## TimBit

benny88 said:
			
		

> And become irresistable to the opposite sex.



Ah! Until the opposite sex realizes you want to fly jets and then tells you "forget it honey Cold Lake ain't for me". Then you'll be irresistible...to yourself?

Sorry, couldn't resist...


----------



## benny88

TimBit said:
			
		

> Ah! Until the opposite sex realizes you want to fly jets and then tells you "forget it honey Cold Lake ain't for me". Then you'll be irresistible...to yourself?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist...



Haha as I get closer and closer to graduation, my girlfriend begins to show more and more interest in my posting preferences...wonder why that is?


----------



## dimsum

benny88 said:
			
		

> Haha as I get closer and closer to graduation, my girlfriend begins to show more and more interest in my posting preferences...wonder why that is?



I'll save you the trouble.  Just put down Victoria or Comox.  That's it.   ;D


----------



## Griffon

Hey All,

I have been trolling this site for the last few weeks, but I haven't found anything on this topic.  Has anyone heard any word back on CEOTP internal selection yet this year?

I put my application in for pilot this year, attended Aircrew Selection in January, and haven't heard anything yet.  AFAIK, the initial offers were supposed to go out in March, but my PSO hasn't received any news, good or bad, for anybody on bae yet.  Does anybody have an idea what's going on?


----------



## wookieknows

Hi Griffon,

I received my offer at the beginning of April.  I have since received my posting message and PLAR request acceptance message.  I still have no dates for training as of yet.  I know a few people that have yet to hear back, positively or negatively. Where are you applying from?  I hope you hear soon.  Nothing is worse than waiting. 

Cheers


----------



## Griffon

I am applying from Cold Lake.  I don't know if it's an occupation thing or what, but AFAIK nobody here has heard anything at all yet.  I applied for pilot, and I noticed that the SIP was just released on the DWAN a couple days ago.  Congratulations on your offer, what occupation did you get accepted into?


----------



## bigabe

Still no word here either way. 
Went for INT O from LCIS. 
Still only a juniorish Corporal so not holding my breath.


----------



## wannabepilot

Good day,
I definitely need some advice.  Here's my situation:
  1)enrolled under CEOTP for pilot.
  2)failed PFT and was CT'd.
  3)must be reassigned.  Initial offers from PSO were for Army Officer trades(not interested), NCM or release.

I was wondering if there is a process to change my enrollment plan from CEOTP to ROTP without releasing.  I would like to be ACSO or LogO but these are not available to me under my current enrollment plan.  My AdminO is suggesting to go RMS clerk and CFR later on.  That seems to be an odd and roundabout way to get what I want.  I do want to stay in the forces but the Army trades are definitely not an option for me.  I am seriously considering release.  Any Advice?
Thanks


----------



## MasterInstructor

I have been told that once I am LS I will have the option to become an officer through OCTP. 

When I do will my pay drop to rate that officer cadet gets or will my pay stay same at LS Spec 1 level until my officer rank starts making more?

cheers


----------



## Occam

Option?

I don't believe there's anything on the books for OCTP anymore.  If you want to go the officer route, it'll be UTPNCM that you'll be pursuing - and it's highly competitive.  Even if you manage to get selected for it, you'll have to complete a degree at RMC or a civvie university (the CF's choice, not yours).

The answer to your other question would be that you would have vested rights to pay at your pre-UTPNCM rank level until your officer rank exceeds it.


----------



## MasterInstructor

Maybe I am getting the names mixed up. 

I am talking about the program where you become an officer and have to complete your degree in 9 years part time as you are working. I taught that was called COTP ( Continuing Officer Training Program).

If I got the name right, than yes COTP still exists, I was in a information session 3 weeks ago.  

cheers


----------



## SeanNewman

You are thinking CEOTP but it is only open for very short gaps at a time to fill specific shortages.

You don't need to be an NCM applying for officer to get CEOTP either, they offer it to people at the recruiting centre if they have college (or even nothing) but do well enough at the aptitude tests.


----------



## MasterInstructor

Thank you for the correction. 

I am already in as an NCM. Completed my Basic, waiting for my QL3. 

I obviously do not know if this program will still exist by the time I am a LS. 

I would only be able to do it if my pay does not drop to Naval Cadet rate.. 

Also, does anybody know if my 4 years of service as a NCM would count towards a higher officer rank? Would I start as a Naval Cadet like everyone else? 

cheers


----------



## MasterInstructor

And then also, which pay scale does CEOTP fall under? A,B,C,D,E?


----------



## CallOfDuty

There is also a program called UTPNCM where if you already have at least 2 university credits, you can apply and they will make you a Naval cadet officer and you will go to school for 4 years and do military stuff during the summer.  You would keep your current pay, plus spec pay even as a cadet O.
   However with the CEOTP program, you get commissioned immediately to 2LT( or navy equiv.)  and would receive that pay.
You are early in your career.  Don't worry about it too much.  Just concentrate on excelling in your trade now..... keep your nose clean and when the time comes, you will have options.


----------



## Occam

It will likely exist, but I wouldn't count on it as a reliable commissioning plan.  It would be something you apply to if it happens to be open to increase your chances, but would rely on UTPNCM as the primary commissioning plan.

In no case would your pay ever be reduced below what you're earning at the time of promotion to OCdt.  You would also receive annual pay increases (if any are announced) that you would have received had you remained an NCM, until such time as your new pay level exceeds the old one.

Four years of service and/or LS rank doesn't give you anything towards a higher rank on commissioning.  I think it may under SCP and CFR, but not CEOTP.



			
				MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> And then also, which pay scale does CEOTP fall under? A,B,C,D,E?



See CBI 204.211(7)


----------



## MasterInstructor

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> You are early in your career.  Don't worry about it too much.  Just concentrate on excelling in your trade now..... keep your nose clean and when the time comes, you will have options.



Thanks for the info and good advise! I will be sitting on pat for a long time at least 4 months, because I need secret security clearance to start my QL3. I am considering taking some university courses. That is why I am asking all these questions... 

I already have 3 full-time terms worth of university credits...

cheers


----------



## SeanNewman

No, at your level you will not get any officer-level equivalences for your training/courses.

That's not to say your expertise won't count and you won't have all sorts of skills that will help you to succeed in your new job, but nothing gets "written off" until much higher in the ranks.


----------



## George Wallace

Haven't we been down this road before?


----------



## captloadie

With more and more NCMs either having a degree when they enter, or earning/finishing on their own time after they join, does anyone think they should either expand the CFR plan, or create something new? I think the system currently overlooks these individuals, and their potential to excel as an Officer. Some may have been eligible for DEU, but for personal/professional circumstances didn't go that route, and now have to wait until they are at least a MCpl and more likely a Sgt to CFR.


----------



## George Wallace

captloadie said:
			
		

> With more and more NCMs either having a degree when they enter, or earning/finishing on their own time after they join, does anyone think they should either expand the CFR plan, or create something new? I think the system currently overlooks these individuals, and their potential to excel as an Officer. Some may have been eligible for DEU, but for personal/professional circumstances didn't go that route, and now have to wait until they are at least a MCpl and more likely a Sgt to CFR.



Could this be an indicator of CHANGE?  Will the separation/distinction between officer and NCM become nonexistent?  Will the lines separating the two become blurred so as to merge the two career paths into one?  Will everyone begin at the bottom and through merit (to include education) rise through one rank structure?  Will the only officers not to follow this path be those who have entered Medical, Dental, Legal or Divinity Schools?


----------



## SeanNewman

Mr Wallace, as you likely know, many have pushed for just that idea.  Is that what you would propose, one solid link?

Or would you rather see everyone have the same initial basic engagement and then make the split?  IE, either you become a Cpl or OCdt at that point?

I think there's a lot of logic behind the one-link method, but I believe the main con with it is that you would only have old officers (if they had to pass through every other rank first).  Also, where does the jump happen?  After RSM, or just keep it in the line command jobs?

I am a huge proponent of making all officers do their first stint in their trade as a Pte.


----------



## PMedMoe

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I am a huge proponent of making all officers do their first stint in their trade as a Pte.



Me too, although several trades don't have officer _or_ Pte rank.


----------



## captloadie

Or we could go the other way and everybody is an officer, like they do in Norway >

The concern with everyone starting as Ptes I think you would lose out on alot of the good leaders who go through the ROTP program (yes there are some). I joined because I wanted an education, and didn't want to wait to get it later. Had I not went ROTP, I would have never have joined the military. For many applicants who don't have a military background, the divide isn't being an Officer or an NCM, its getting an education or not. 

That being said, I go back to my original question, is it feasible to have two streams, an ROTP stream, and a split at the Cpl level. And then, what do we do with the DEOs?


----------



## SeanNewman

If you're asking for opinion, then I would say that ROTP Civie U schould actually be scrapped because the CF is bending over too far to accommodate the person.  They're paying for free school _and_ a salary, _and_ even more money depending on the city.  

Yes, I know the person has to stay in for five years after graduation, but that's hardly a challenge to wait out.

IMO, if someone in high school wants a free education through the military they should have to go through RMC and get the whole package.

As for this thread though, what I think has been proposed is that everyone who wanted to split into the officer path after the three year BE would then attend a streamlined education and officer training system.  If it became formalized, I am certain they could get the educational part down to two years full time because it would be including summers and it would be military-focussed.  Then the officer phase training could be thinned down to a year because a lot of the soldier skills taught would already be known (the rank structure, drill, weapons, etc).

As for DEOs, those are a different case because they are givers and not takers (when compared against the ROTP Civie U program).  They have already paid their own way through school so the CF could exploit that, but yes they would have to take a different path.  Perhaps they get their degree, then do the BE, and then straight into officer trg instead of the educational part in the middle.

All hypothetical and academic discussion of course at this point.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

I'm not seeing the problem that would lead to such a massive change to our officer entry plans.  I don't think that the prevalence of university degreed NCM applicants in the Regular Force Army is anywhere near where some here seem to be suggesting that it is.

I don't see any benefit to cutting the ROTP civy-U stream.  How are they giving any less than the RMC folks?  What is the cost of maintaining RMC?

I think that having a variety of entry programs from a wide variety of sources promotes a healthy officer corps.

I also have grave reservations about selecting all the officers from the ranks of the NCMs.  I think that one unintended consequence could be the erosion of the professional NCO corps.   I've worked with one army where the officers came from the ranks, and they did not really have professional NCOs in the manner that we do.


----------



## SeanNewman

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> ...I think that one unintended consequence could be the erosion of the professional NCO corps...



And that point is bang on.  I asked above at what point would the CF make the split, after Cpl?  Sgt?  RSM?

Either you don't degrade the NCO corps and make everyone work their way up and you end up with only old officers, or you make the split early by cherry picking the ones with good potential and risk losing good Sgts, etc.

I guess it could be mitigated by making it all voluntary (?)

As for the current ways, I think a healthy diversity would still be maintained by only having DEOs and RMCs.  I am not saying that Civie U ROTPs don't make good officers, not by any means, what I am saying is that I honestly can't believe the CF even offers it because it's so good for the member.  Yes it costs money to run RMC, but we're running it anyway so the unit cost of adding those few more ROTP candidates to the RMC nominal role would make them borderline-free for RMC to have, but save all that money from sending them to other schools.


----------



## gcclarke

I was under the impression that RMC was being run at, or at least near to capacity, and that pretty much the only reason that people even get sent to Civvie U is either because there's no more room in RMC for that program that year, or they're in a degree program that is not offered at RMC, such as Nursing. 

I understand what you're saying about it being "too good" of a deal for the member, but I think that you may be underestimating the unit cost of expanding the programs at RMC. Hiring more professors, constructing more labs, lecture halls, housing, etc. It all adds up quickly, as opposed to the relatively cheap cost of paying for tuition whereever the Civvie U happens to be.


----------



## SeanNewman

gcclarke said:
			
		

> ...I understand what you're saying about it being "too good" of a deal for the member, but I think that you may be underestimating the unit cost of expanding the programs at RMC...



Ack, and all good points.  Just discussion, really; not making policy here.


----------



## donaldk

captloadie said:
			
		

> With more and more NCMs either having a degree when they enter, or earning/finishing on their own time after they join, does anyone think they should either expand the CFR plan, or create something new? I think the system currently overlooks these individuals, and their potential to excel as an Officer. Some may have been eligible for DEU, but for personal/professional circumstances didn't go that route, and now have to wait until they are at least a MCpl and more likely a Sgt to CFR.



They do have an entry procedure for NCMs with degrees; it is not well known because it is fairly new.  It is the Special Commissioning Plan (SCP) and basically it shares with the UTP/NCM in the benefits that a UTP/NCM officer receives once they finish their university, except an SCP has these benefits execute immediately upon commissioning.

From my experience in dealing with DMCA with my CT/OT and countless hours of reading the CBI's/QR&O's/CFAO's here is a rundown of the entry plans the CF has (very brief unofficial nutshell - it is a Friday) (REF CBI 204 for the pay).



DEO --> entry from civi street with acceptable university degree in hand, including those with prior mil service (invalid for current serving military)... so do not worry about this unless you release and re-enroll.

CEOTP --> anyone from civilian or already in the service that has partial university level credits... not a reliable entry path.  Must obtain university degree within 12 years of service and I think maximum rank permitted is Capt/Lt(N) until that degree has been achieved (needs citation).  Replaced OCTP (still in the Pay Regs - because there are members currently serving paid under its category - but it is invalid).

ROTP --> usually civilians or PRes looking for taking their commission and want their university paid for; RMC is first choice. You will be a cadet and go through the charm school routine if you assigned to RMC.  This plan takes anyone... so someone looking at UTP/NCM that does not make the cut can apply for ROTP.

UTP/NCM -> NCM without univ degree that wants commissioning, and CF funded education.  It mimics ROTP but without the bullcrap of cadet life.  They want you to pick RMC but you will not fall under cadet life but will be made an OCDT during your stint at school.  Usually must be Cpl with QL5... having your CFPLQ/EPLQ (>2007) is a major asset has this will PLAR you BMOQ.  Academic waivers are also required (existing trades training might knock off certain credits).

SCP --> Must be a current serving NCM.  Must have a valid university degree for the MOS you want to enter into. Preferably have CFPLQ/EPLQ (>2007 gets BMOQ waived).  Pte/OS/AB with university degrees can enter into this plan... they will be paid under the "A" scale.  LS/Cpl and above fall into the "D" scale (see Notes below).  See notes.

CFR --> Must be RegF PO2/SGT or above with 10years+ service and LACK a university degree.  If you meet this but are university qualified you WILL fall under SCP (it is for the better). See notes.

Notes:
-- For pay details read CBI 204... It is a mouth full as officer enrolment plan pay is much more complicated then NCM pay ever gets.
-- 

SCP:
- 2 years until Promotion (must be MOS qualified)
- Advance promotion possible after 1 year
- At the MCpl/SGT lower levels the pay vest back favours a littler better (a few dollars) (looks like the April 10 rates tightened this up as my difference was much more).  For those that happen to max out pay rate "D", they will enter into "E" IPC 10. At this point their only advantage over a CFR is only having to wait 2 years for promotion into the next rank.
- requires university degree that lines up with the desired MOS
- Post grad studieslater into the carrier possible
- Ideally minimum rank is MCpl with PLQ... but DMCA has used this for any NCM that had a degree that wants to go officer.

CFR:
- 3 years until promotion EPZ - firm (see the CF grievances website)
- Advance promotion still possible after 1 year
- Pay vest back is slightly worse than SCP, however the E scale has a higher peak rate, this favours specialist paid SGT's and WO's.
- requires 10+ years service and rank of MCpl minimum, SGT preferred
- University NOT required.
- New MOS must line up with previous MOS training and experience

For those not spec paid the difference can be even more (My pay if vested under level E would have been $200 less per month - I was a MS IPC 3 to SLt back in 2009  - but I noticed the new 2010 rates this time tightened that up).
-- Vest back formula (excluding pilots): [New rank pay #] = ([New rank IPC 1 pay] - [New rank IPC basic pay]) + [Old Pay] ; [New rank pay #] will fall in between two new rank IPCs, the higher of which is chosen as your New Pay.

Example: SGT pay IPC 3 SPEC 1: 5932, becomes a General Service Officer at Lt
If the SGT was a CFR: New pay = (4966-4776) + 5932 = 6122 --> "D" IPC 7 (6285)
If the SGT was a SCP: New pay = (5159-4961) + 5932 = 6130 --> "E" IPC 6 (6279)


----------



## agc

Commissioning plans are competitive (ie, it's an option to _apply_), so be aware that aptitude test scores, interview results, level of education, recommendations by your chain of command, etc are all factors in being selected.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/204-eng.asp  - CBI chapter on pay

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/09-05-eng.asp - CMP Instr for CEOTP

You would be appointed to NCdt, and promoted to A/SLt on completion of officer trg.  If you have your PLQ, you can apply for a training equivalency and get commissioned right away.  You keep your NCM pay while a cadet, and then get paid in level D in the tables until promoted to Lt(N).

The UTPNCM is usually considered a better career path, since you keep your pay to go to university full time, and you can apply for most officer occupations.  Conversely the CEOTP requires you complete a degree on your own time (if the Navy gives you any), and isn't open to a wide variety of occupations.  Selection under either plan will result in a review of your terms of service and you would likely have to sign your IE25.  You should consult your PSO office about how obligatory service will affect you, esp if you are in a Naval technical trade.

Some resources you should check out when you make your own learning and career plan are:

The CF Equivalency Database: http://www.cda-acd.forces.gc.ca/dli-dai/acc/cfed-bdefc/app/index-eng.asp

www.opme.forces.gc.ca  The OPME curriculum is worth taking even if you never commission, and the courses are provided free of charge for serving members.

Canadian Virtual University: http://www.cvu-uvc.ca/cgi-bin/cvu/cvuinfo.cgi?qn=subject&lang=en

If you have access to a DWAN terminal at work the MARLANT FPSO has an excellent site on halifax.mil.ca (link is on the right near the bottom).


----------



## g_jeremies

Interesting thread.
I have a question about commissioning:
I am an untrained private (only BMQ qualified), still in waiting for a QL3 course.
I have a civilain university degree, fully paid of with my own funds.
I am medically fit, with a CFAT (Aptitude Test) that qualifies me for my trades of interest.
I spoke with the BPSO recently about my options, and the only option he saw was SCP (Special Commissioning Plan). The only problem is the minimum QL3 eligibility requirement. 
Are there any other options, as it seems silly for the CF to spend money training me to QL3 standard only to have me commission and then need completely different training.
If I have a degree already, is there any way to "jump in" as a DEO candidate, after all, they aren't QL3 qualified and that isn't a problem.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## captloadie

I'm curious to know if when you first applied the recruiting centre gave you information on the DEO option, and if so, why you first decided to enlist and go the NCM route. 

I also wonder if there is an increasing number of candidates applying who believe that once you get in, getting a commission won't be that difficult, given they have all the prerequisites (Degree, required experience, CFAT scores, etc.)?

As for the last poster's question, it would probably be quicker to voluntarily release and apply DEO then wait on being accepted through one of the commissioning plans. That being said, looking at some of the posts recently, they aren't hiring in alot of trades, Officer or NCM, this year. It might be risky to give up what you have, unless you know you aren't going to be happy and could walk away from it all if you don't get re-enrolled.


----------



## CallOfDuty

...I'm curious too!  Why in the hell would you pay for a full university education yourself and then join up to be a private for the next 4 years??
  I'm not saying NCM is a waste of time, but theres a lot of very interesting officer trades, that you could have chosen!!  Unless maybe you were deemed unsuitable for officer in your interview?  
    What trade are you going?  Are you still interested in trying it out?  It might be worth your while VR'ing if you know you're going to hate life for the next 4 years......


----------



## CallOfDuty

Failed pft and was CT'd?  CT in  our world means you were component transferred.  
Anyhow, what about the ncm  trade AESOP?  That's an aircrew job....and an awesome one too.  It is a roundabout way to go...but if those are your options, go for it.  
    Go for it. Take a nice airforce ncm trade, wait out a few years and then apply under the CEOTP or UTPNCM program for ASCO or whatever you want.
  Remeber though..if you go RMS clerk, you could end up in any element.....including working for army!!


----------



## agc

It is likely that releasing after BMQ, but prior to the completion of your initial 3 years of service that you would have a release item which would be unfavourable for re-applying.  Not necessarily impossible, but if it did happen it would take much longer than the first time around.  Possibly longer than just doing your QL3 and applying for the SCP then.

What trade are you and when does your QL3 course begin?


----------



## g_jeremies

Currently my trade is WFE (Water, Fuels, Environmental) Tech, and my QL3 is supposedly starting in November, but I've heard different things every week, including that the course was already fully loaded, and I would have to wait until next April. The course lasts a touch over 6 months.
As to why I went NCM to begin with, several reasons:
-None of the officer trades that I was interested in, or my degree was relevant to, had openings that year (or so I was told).
-This trade was the closest NCM trade to my field of knowledge/interest that I qualified for "medically" (colour vision requirement makes me unsuitable for a slew of air force trades that would be a lot closer to my field of study).
-And lastly, yes, I actually believed the recruiters when they told me that commissioning would be a breeze because I already had a degree. Silly me, I know.

I don't want to VR, but I'm afraid of a Catch-22 with this QQL3 requirement. I can't go SCP without it, but if I get it and apply for SCP, I can see them telling me that they won't let me commission because they just spent time and money training me and they want to get some use/work out of me as a return on their investment.  I'm just baffled that a DEO candidate with literally no military knowledge/background is given an easier ride than someone who has passed BMQ (which is virtually equivalent to IAP - Initial Assessment Phase), and has the same degree as the DEO.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts/advice on this.

Thank you.


----------



## George Wallace

I'm curious as to what officer occupation would be close to WFE?


----------



## g_jeremies

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to what officer occupation would be close to WFE?



As far as I know, the closest would be something in the Engineering Branch. Likely Construction Engineer.


----------



## PMedMoe

Why do people say "Army trades are not an options"?  You realize in other elements you _may_ be away from home just as much, you _can_ still get deployed and you _will_ get posted.   :


----------



## agc

All entry plans and in service selection plans are ultimately about meeting the personnel requirements of the CF, while doing everything they can to accommodate the wishes of the member.

Lets compare apples to apples.  Someone made a specific job offer with particular details about your occupation, pay, term of service, etc, and you accepted it.  Someone who similarly accepted a DEO offer would also have to meet certain criteria and apply through a competitive process in order to change occupations.

It's easy to see that there would be a lot of manning issues and abuse of the system if remusters weren't as tightly controlled as they are.  Not saying anything about you, just that the same policy has to apply to everyone.  The CF can't afford thousands of cost moves for example just because individuals decide to change their training programs.


----------



## agc

wannabepilot said:
			
		

> I was wondering if there is a process to change my enrollment plan from CEOTP to ROTP without releasing.



Unfortunately, no.  How close are you to finishing your degree?


----------



## Zoomie

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You realize in other elements you _may_ be away from home just as much, you _can_ still get deployed and you _will_ get posted.   :



I can't speak for the OP - some people just have an allergy to green.  While I can't speak about deployments - as it differs for each Wing that you are posted to.  I would suggest that AF personnel are posted more often that any other DEU.    In the pilot MOSID, we are currently working on 3 year postings.


----------



## g_jeremies

agc said:
			
		

> All entry plans and in service selection plans are ultimately about meeting the personnel requirements of the CF, while doing everything they can to accommodate the wishes of the member.
> 
> Lets compare apples to apples.  Someone made a specific job offer with particular details about your occupation, pay, term of service, etc, and you accepted it.  Someone who similarly accepted a DEO offer would also have to meet certain criteria and apply through a competitive process in order to change occupations.
> 
> It's easy to see that there would be a lot of manning issues and abuse of the system if remusters weren't as tightly controlled as they are.  Not saying anything about you, just that the same policy has to apply to everyone.  The CF can't afford thousands of cost moves for example just because individuals decide to change their training programs.



I understand that. The original purpose of my posts wasn't to explore the rationale of CF policy, but rather to explore what, if any, alternatives there are to commissioning other than SCP.


----------



## agc

g_jeremies said:
			
		

> I'm just baffled that a DEO candidate with literally no military knowledge/background is given an easier ride than someone who has passed BMQ (which is virtually equivalent to IAP - Initial Assessment Phase), and has the same degree as the DEO.
> 
> I'd love to hear people's thoughts/advice on this.



I gave you my thoughts.  My advice is to finish your QL3, get your posting taken care of, and then check in with the PSO again.  Make sure your intent is known to your chain of command, and read the CFAOs so you know what they'll be looking for when it comes time to go to the competition.  Don't approach this with a sense of entitlement (not saying I think you are, just trying to point you in the right direction); you must be better prepared than your competitors to get what you want. 

If you feel you were somehow wronged by the recruiting process, you can try a redress, but the statement of understanding you signed on enrollment will make that basically impossible to win.



			
				g_jeremies said:
			
		

> I can't go SCP without it, but if I get it and apply for SCP, I can see them telling me that they won't let me commission because they just spent time and money training me and they want to get some use/work out of me as a return on their investment.



Did the PSO tell you this?


----------



## CallOfDuty

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Why do people say "Army trades are not an options"?  You realize in other elements you _may_ be away from home just as much, you _can_ still get deployed and you _will_ get posted.   :


  I don't think that's the issue.  Personally, I want to be as far away from " the field" as I can possibly be!!


----------



## g_jeremies

Thanks for the input.
I don't feel wronged. I will finish the QL3, learn what I can, and like you said, after everything is settled down (posting, etc.) see where to take it from there.
Thanks



			
				agc said:
			
		

> I gave you my thoughts.  My advice is to finish your QL3, get your posting taken care of, and then check in with the PSO again.  Make sure your intent is known to your chain of command, and read the CFAOs so you know what they'll be looking for when it comes time to go to the competition.  Don't approach this with a sense of entitlement (not saying I think you are, just trying to point you in the right direction); you must be better prepared than your competitors to get what you want.
> 
> If you feel you were somehow wronged by the recruiting process, you can try a redress, but the statement of understanding you signed on enrollment will make that basically impossible to win.
> 
> Did the PSO tell you this?


----------



## agc

Anyone else have their application in?

I applied for MARS and AEC.  I suspect they will not transfer very many under this program this FY, though.


----------



## TimBit

I don't even know why the program is still around to be honest, with no problems at all in recruiting and some people having already been released or undergoing admin action for failing to complete their degree in 9 yrs...


----------



## agc

The in service competition had fewer occupations open than last year, which probably reflects recruiting's success over the past few years.  So it is a flexible tool in that regard.

Perhaps more success in achieving degrees could be realized if the minimum requirements for education completed was the same as the UTP.   People would know what they were getting into, and wouldn't be able to take this plan as an easier alternative than getting the education done for the SCP or UTP.


----------



## Griffon

agc said:
			
		

> People would know what they were getting into, and wouldn't be able to take this plan as an *easier* alternative than getting the education done for the SCP or UTP.



I think this is the biggest problem with the program.  Many individuals think this is an easier program, but it is in fact both a harder and riskier route to take in the path to a successful career as an officer in the CF.  Members run a much higher risk of reversion or release in the event of a training failure, and if they get through the training they can expect to get minimal support in their endeavors to achieve the academic requirements within their initial TOS.

Many people have gone with the thought that the CF has put a large investment in such occ as PLT and thought they could get away without working towards their degree, but they're not so safe anymore.  The CAS has issued interim direction that CEOTP members reaching the end of their initial TOS without having an ILP or progression towards the attainment of a degree are to be released, so they are starting to crack down.

I don't think CEOTP will be around for much longer...but I put in my app for PLT just in case.  But if I were to be given the option of this or UTPNCM, I would take UTP hands down...it's just one less thing to worry about having to do later.


----------



## Griffon

The Strategic Intake Plan for FY 11/12 is now on the DIN, and it doesn't look good for CEOTP.  There are some major cuts from last year's projections.  If you have access to the DIN, you may want to check it out.


----------



## agc

If you're looking at the CFRG web page, that is a summary of the "External SIP."  Those numbers don't include in service positions.  If you're looking at something else can you let me know which site to check?

Thanks


----------



## Bnelly

Now that UTP is out hopefully we will hear something soon either good or bad.


----------



## Bnelly

Griffon, when you spoke with D Mil C 7-2 did they say anything about this program or just about UTP?


----------



## Griffon

I didn't ask about CEOTP. Plt has zero spots for CEOTP on the 11/12 SIP, so I didn't seethe point in enquiring for myself.


----------



## Bnelly

Zero for Plt. Hopefully MARS has better numbers or it'll be next years CEO/UTP competitions again. Thanks for calling those guys.


----------



## Griffon

Sorry Bnelly, there's no CEOTP slots for MARS either...at least not on the SIP.


----------



## Bnelly

I checked the SIP and it does not look good. I am thinking of giving D Mil C a call for an update on the program as my BPSO had no updated information.


----------



## Bnelly

Good day all,

   I called D Mil C today and was told only 4 applicants made it this year. One Infantry officer and three into Airforce spots. Sorry for the bad news, but I thought it best that everyone knew what was going on.


----------



## luke_l

Anyone else get a CEOTP offer for AEC?  I got one the other day, but I am holding off accepting it until I hear the results of my UTPNCM application, although I am starting to think it is a no since I haven't heard anything yet.


----------



## agc

Was on leave last week, but stopped into the office since I was in town for groceries.  My offer msg was released on the 3rd.


----------



## PD

Good day

It is now June 22.  I have yet to receive a message - any indication of whether my CEOTP was accepted or not.. If anyone here is familiar with the process..as well at whether I ought to get a message on a negative answer..can you let me know.  Yes I have my CoC and they have been very supportive..but..no answer yet.  Rather than offend and bug anyone..I was hopeful there was someone here who has experience in this.

Thank you


----------



## Melbatoast

Yes, you normally receive a message for non-selection (I know, I got two before I was finally successful).  CEOTP was slashed to near zero this year, though, as you can see from this thread.

See if your supervisor will call the desk at D-Mil-C 7-2 on your behalf.  I can PM you names and numbers if you require them (but they are also in the competition message).  Good luck.


----------



## PD

Gosh yes the contacts would be appreciated...Ive been just ill about this..

thank you


----------



## Socialbutterfly

I didn't apply under CEOTP, but under the SCP Program. I know the board for my trade was held June 8. I am going crazy waiting to hear something. It would be nice to have an idea when results will be released by D Mil C. The wait would be a little easier.

My supervisor called and left voicemails/emails with both contacts and has not heard back. I am getting a little stressed as I am registered to begin my Masters in the fall, but was advised that if selected I may not attend until 2012. I am required to put several non-refundable payments down ASAP for tuition/housing and will have to relocate my family if I go to school.  I am hoping for good news soon


----------



## claude_m

Hello everybody! 
I am a civilian and i was just wondering if i am eligible to apply for CEOTP for Flying. I do not have a degree but i just started one through distance learning. 
I do have about 230 flying hours and i was working towards my CPL. 
Is CEOTP only for people already in CF ?
thanks


----------



## cnobbs84

If I am not mistaken the CEOTP is only if the CF is hard up for people to join. I am told it is very rare that CEOTP is used.


----------



## mariomike

claude_m said:
			
		

> I am a civilian and i was just wondering if i am eligible to apply for CEOTP for Flying.



May find some answers here:
http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+&btnG=Search#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=site:army.ca+ceotp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=97eede9ed711c932&biw=1360&bih=594


----------



## luke_l

CEOTP is currently not open for Pilot.  It has been open in the past, however they closed it recently, and I don't foresee it opening again in the very near future, as they have slowed down on recruiting pilots due to the current bottleneck in training.  No, CEOTP is not only open for people in the CF, however there are different targets for internal vs external CEOTP.  Yes, it is a lot more restrictive as far as what trades are available compared to ROTP/DEO.


----------



## nick237

Did anybody under CEOTP receive a message to go to St-Jean for this fall?


----------



## roger44

There is a new program that includes a partnership with Seneca College for the academics and the flight training is done thru the military.  It is an awesome opportunity but the timelines are very short. 
Anyone interested must get the process rolling now.  Get the word out.


----------



## Donny

Can anybody enroll on CEOTP? I thought its only for CF members.


----------



## aesop081

Donny said:
			
		

> Can anybody enroll on CEOTP? I thought its only for CF members.



There are both a CEOTP for folks coming in from the street and CEOTP for internal selection only.


----------



## Melbatoast

I would urge caution and talk to people actually in the CEOTP stream before pulling the trigger on an application.  It is not the preferred option for the CF and candidates are often treated accordingly (second class citizens).  I know and interact with number of them in different occupations, and talked to even more when I was actively considering it.  It sounds good on paper but very seriously consider the actual career requirements and repercussions before going through with it.

I am personally very glad I missed it and got a different program.  No regrets.


----------



## RobOfstie

Does anyone know what the SIP is for the CEOTP-Internal this fiscal year??  I realize those numbers are subject to change but I'm curious what the target # is.  I put my name in for a CT/OT CEOTP-Internal over a year ago, and am finally proceeding with the application.  Interview done, merit listed, Aircrew medical is scheduled next week, then Aircrew selection sometime after that.    If your considering a CT/OT be prepared for an extremely long wait no matter what way you look at it. 

Regards

Rob


----------



## SupersonicMax

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> It is not the preferred option for the CF and candidates are often treated accordingly (second class citizens).



How so? If that's really the case, there could be grounds for a massive redress going through.. But I don't think it is the case...


----------



## Melbatoast

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> How so? If that's really the case, there could be grounds for a massive redress going through.. But I don't think it is the case...



I worded that awkwardly.  They have to work in a system that is not really set up to handle them so their lives can be very difficult.  They have to complete multiple phases of career development simultaneously and more often than not have to focus on one more than the other, leaving nobody happy.

I'm sure some CEOTP will show up and tell us how it went seamlessly for him, but I've yet to meet that person.

edit - though whatever this program is sounds much different from the traditional CEOTP.  More like the old community college training plan.


----------



## Dejo

I am not sure there is CEOTP for Pilot this year. I once started CEOTP in 2009, then changed to Navy 2010, then this year re-apply through CEOTP or DEO plan for Pilot position. I was told by the CFNRCC, North Bay that there is no CEOTP at this time (year), but I have been given chances to go through DEO. 

I think CEOTP is still for internal selection. Hope this info helped.


----------



## MdB

CEOTP Pilot at Seneca College is open and they are taking application.

The proper way to apply is to write the entry exam at Seneca, then get accepted in the program. You get to apply in the CF thereafter.

Of note, ROTP pilot is still running altough the selections are getting at the end for RMC. You can apply concurrently ROTP and CEOTP.

The main thing to remember about Seneca is that it is to speed up the training (only 4 years compared to 7-8+) and that it includes military training even as the student goes to Seneca.  BUT, it is not for all, as you fail a course and you screw your course/training schedule for the rest of the diploma. ROTP has more leeway on options if something like that happens.

You really have to think about it before making the move.


----------



## SkyHeff

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/15w-15e/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=12931

Saw this on the RCAF website today, and as a current CAMP student (multi-IFR + degree) being winged after 4 years is pretty appealing. Even with the PFT by-pass, I'll be looking at 2-3 years post-grad until wings. Good luck to those who enter this and look forward to hearing about it's success.


----------



## DexOlesa

I guess my question is, if the CF is going to do all the flight training, why go to/ make the deal with Seneca an aviation college, instead of a regular college.


----------



## Good2Golf

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> I guess my question is, if the CF is going to do all the flight training, why go to/ make the deal with Seneca an aviation college, instead of a regular college.



For a career in aviation, Seneca (and Mount Royal, Canadore, etc...) IS a "regular college."


Regards
G2G


----------



## DexOlesa

Yes, with a dubious history in the aviation world. However at least the CF will still be doing the flight training.


----------



## MedCorps

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> Yes, with a dubious history in the aviation world. However at least the CF will still be doing the flight training.



Explain the dubious history in the aviation world.  I have not heard this and I am interested to know that the problems have been at these two schools. 

MC


----------



## Good2Golf

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> Yes, with a dubious history in the aviation world...



Dubious? ???

Personal experience, or do you have a reference to an acknowledged authority on Seneca's performance/quality?

A number of my colleagues in flight training were Seneca grads and they were professional, capable aviators, many of whom spoke highly of their alma matter and are performing quite well in the CF (for at least two decades).  My opinion (note how I state that clearly), is that Seneca has a good reputation in Canadian flying programs, and deservedly so.


Regards
G2G


----------



## DexOlesa

Personal experience with their grads, and as a Pilot and former flight instructor at other schools. The government subsidized schools, in Ontario in particular have quite a stigma. Springing from rules and regulations there that many feel degrade the quality of pilot coming from the institutions. 5 knot crosswind limits for students. Requiring that the gear remain down on the Bonanza's at all times because of one too many gear up landings (though I will admit my only knowledge of that particular reg may not apply directly to Seneca, but one of the other schools). Now I am sure that they do graduate some fine pilots, as you have pointed out. However in my experience, I have gotten an overall negative response in many places in the industry when discussing these aviation programs. As I said, if the CF is retaining control of the actual flight training, it likely wont matter. They'll just be sending them there for the degree.

 This however circles back to my original question. If you aren't sending them there for the flight training, how is this any different/ better than the ROTP program at any other school, other than its a Bachelors of Aviation Management (which honestly wont apply much more to a CF pilot I would think, than just a normal BBA or BSC.) I would like more info on how they plan to get these students to wings in 4 years since through the normal ROTP program if you are lucky you can get slotted on PFT summer 3, however the other blocks are too lengthy to allow you to do it in the summer between normal classes.

Edit to add: I would like to also state that my problem is not with just Seneca but the majority of these "puppy mill" flight schools (having taught at 2 personally) They crank out pilots at an accelerated rate, leading these kids blindly into a crashing industry, with promises of job shortages and the glamorous life of a Pilot (which frankly doesn't exist anymore). The market is subsequently flooded, pushing the wages of pilots lower and lower, and reducing the quality of life, because these kids are told they need to do anything to get ahead, and the industry eats its young. With these schools being subsidized it just exacerbates the situation as it costs a fraction of normal university or conventional flight training, so massive platoon size classes are getting shoved through.


----------



## MAJONES

I believe the Seneca partnership was brought into being as a way for CEOTP pilots to earn a degree and fullfill their terms of service.  At least that is how I read the CANAIRGEN.  The idea was that Seneca would grant degree credit for RCAF flight and officer training, (the officer training being OPME and AFOD).

As for the other comments regarding Seneca's reputation; The school has produced *some* students with a certain attitude.  That small minority of students gets noticed and the whole school pays the price.  Also, Seneca trains their students for airline work; the emphasis is on SOPs etc.  This type of training does not always prepare them well for their first jobs flying in the bush.


----------



## Zoomie

The four year program cannot be based on a standard school year. As previously mentioned, there is no way you can fit a 10-12 month BFT and another 4-7 month AFT in during summer break.   The 4 year goal most probably looks feasible on paper - but delays should be expected. These ab-initio students will not be given any priorities over those already in the grinder.


----------



## Strike

Zoomie said:
			
		

> The four year program cannot be based on a standard school year. As previously mentioned, there is no way you can fit a 10-12 month BFT and another 4-7 month AFT in during summer break.   The 4 year goal most probably looks feasible on paper - but delays should be expected. These ab-initio students will not be given any priorities over those already in the grinder.



I suspect they may end up doing it a month at a time as opposed to all at once.  Unless the school year is tailored to fit these students on the longer courses.


----------



## Melbatoast

Zoomie said:
			
		

> These ab-initio students will not be given any priorities over those already in the grinder.



I would suspect that the intakes (especially the initial ones) will be tiny, on the order of 5 people or less, so I doubt there would be any impact.  I base that on the size of the NCM-SEP programs running at colleges, which seem to be the closest analog to this program.

Having seen the PML vs. TES numbers for the occupation this year I understand the need to stand something like this up, but it's not opening the floodgates.

I would sure be annoyed if I was wrong and it does effect the pipeline, which appears to be finally coming unclogged...


----------



## DexOlesa

> The idea was that Seneca would grant degree credit for RCAF flight and officer training, (the officer training being OPME and AFOD).



I guess this is really the heart of my scepticism. So they will get university credits for the flight training that everyone has to take, making this a quasi degree. Just seems like it's the airforce saying "pilot don't really need degree's so lets find away around it"


----------



## aesop081

MAJONES said:
			
		

> The idea was that Seneca would grant degree credit for RCAF flight and officer training, (the officer training being OPME and AFOD).



Unless Seneca starts teaching Operational planing process, aerospace doctrine, etc...I don't see getting credit for AFOD.

Edit: Nevermind, i just interpreted that the oposite way.


----------



## captloadie

I read the directive a while ago so things are a little fuzzy, but if I remember correctly, students would attend the college for specific courses related to their  aviation management (?) degree, and be granted credits for other military course taken (AFOD, OPMEs, etc), much like Athabaskan does for military members. The program would also be designed to accomodate longer breaks in order to get the required flight training in.

Will these individuals get preferential loading onto courses, that is a very good question.


----------



## SkyHeff

After reading the CANFORGEN, if all works out as set by the timeline, members will complete PhI 1st year with some academics, PhII and PhIII during 2nd and 3rd year, then 4th year will be finishing up the academics side at Seneca and upon graduation students will be sent to OTU's or PhIV for fighter pilots.

Within the 4 year timeline members should achieve:

A BACHELOR OF AVIATION TECHNOLOGY DEGREE 
ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE WINGS 
A ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE OF CANADA CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION FOR THE OFFICER PROFESSIONAL MILITARY EDUCATION (OPME) PROGRAMME (_which is ceasing to exist Apr 13_)
BLOCK 2 OF THE AIR FORCE OFFICER DEVELOPMENT (AFOD) PROGRAMME, AND 
THE BASIC MILITARY OFFICER QUALIFICATION 

~4 semesters at Seneca and the rest is credited to AF training and OPME/CFJOD


----------



## DexOlesa

Right so barely half a degree


----------



## RobOfstie

Has anybody seen what the intake numbers are for this program?  I've applied for CEOTP-Internal.  I'm a Reservist doing a CT/OT into the into the program internally.  I've completed my Interview, been merit listed, Aircrew Medical, Seneca College entrance exam, with ASC coming up shortly.  I'm definitely curious to know what the intake numbers will be into this plan.  I suspect not very many the first year, making it all the more competitive.


----------



## luke_l

<RANT> a.k.a. don't read it if you don't want to hear it  
This kills me.  I applied for internal CEOTP for Pilot last year, and got a call from D Mil C in January of 2011 telling me they changed their mind, and weren't taking any CEOTP Pilots after all.  But, I had enough credit to apply for UTPNCM, so do I want to turn my application into one of those instead.  I said sure, because I didn't want to wait another year.  Ended up having to move to Kingston for RMC (long story, wrong place, but family issues have made this move difficult).  Now, they aren't 'forcing' UTPNCM's to go to RMC anymore, and have opened CEOTP back up.  On top of this, RMC is now reversing their decision to allow me to take a 3 year general science degree and forcing me to a 4 year which my transfer credits don't help me much.  I came here with a 2 year college diploma (in Avionics), plus close to another full year of university worth of distance courses/OPME's; after my 1 year at RMC I need to do another 2.5 which will give me a total of 6.5 years of post-secondary and a bachelors degree, plus however long it takes me to get my wings afterwards.  Now I hear this, and see that someone off the street can fulfill their officer degree requirements with this quasi-joke of a degree (come on, no other 'full-time' university will give that amount of university credit for military training).  I shoulda waited another year  :facepalm:

I keep being told by the un-named "powers at be" at RMC that a 3 year degree (even though it's an accredited degree blah blah) will restrict my promotion, ability for certain positions, etc; I think that this is bull$**t.  If this is the case, then won't there be issues with this Seneca degree?  I somehow think that my 7 years as an AVS tech in the RCAF will serve me better than some university courses, but maybe that's me being "naive" as I am not privy to the ways of a university graduate.

</RANT>

Hmm, I set out to write something useful here, but it turned into a vent session, and I forget what my original intention was.  Oh well, in go the RANT tags, and I will post it anyway


----------



## Zoomie

It's a valid rant m_c

This project is already flawed before it even begins. The timeline is naive and leaves out the question of what happens to the newly winged pilot if he hasn't finished school. In order to be MOSID qualified, you need a degree, you can't get your wings without being MOSID qualified. The program alo fails to mention the fact that the pilot will have to return for a refresher course after the 4thyear is complete. Not very efficient. A


----------



## agc

middle_coast said:
			
		

> I keep being told by the un-named "powers at be" at RMC that a 3 year degree (even though it's an accredited degree blah blah) will restrict my promotion, ability for certain positions, etc; I think that this is bull$**t.  If this is the case, then won't there be issues with this Seneca degree?



This is my understanding.  The program is in place for the CF to produce new operational pilots as quickly as possible, not to develop these folks into general officers.  I've been told the same about my BMASc as a CEOTP AEC.

As for your frustration about going to RMC, they didn't force you to go, you accepted the offer.  Make the best of it, and you'll enjoy yourself a lot more.


----------



## luke_l

agc said:
			
		

> As for your frustration about going to RMC, they didn't force you to go, you accepted the offer.  Make the best of it, and you'll enjoy yourself a lot more.


Someone's been drinking the kool-aid   (jk...) Honestly though, I don't know your background, but when you get an offer at the end of May that is not what you are prepared for, and you have a house to sell and an employed spouse, there's not a *whole* lot of time for making decisions.  Yes, I did accept the offer.  Could I foresee issues with my wife finding work? No.  Was I adequately prepared for the "RMC Experience" after close to 10 years in the Air Force? Not really.  Putting all this together makes for a pretty ill-informed choice.
As far as enjoying myself goes, it's just not going to happen for multiple reasons which I won't go into here.  I will continue in a forward direction as my whining is generally restricted to groups of peers and the internet, and I'm gonna finish what I started.  But I am entitled to be at least a little irritated when my commissioning program of choice was rescinded mid-selection because of backlog (apparently) and then to open up the program again the following year with a vengeance.


----------



## agc

middle_coast said:
			
		

> Someone's been drinking the kool-aid   (jk...) Honestly though, I don't know your background, but when you get an offer at the end of May that is not what you are prepared for, and you have a house to sell and an employed spouse, there's not a *whole* lot of time for making decisions.



That's why I planned all the different possibilities out in advance, so that when I got my offer in May for my second choice, I was prepared to make the right decision.



> Yes, I did accept the offer.  Could I foresee issues with my wife finding work? No.



I agree that this sucks.  But, like most folks on this site, you've been posted before, and will be posted again, so yeah you knew that was a possible issue.



> Was I adequately prepared for the "RMC Experience" after close to 10 years in the Air Force? Not really.  Putting all this together makes for a pretty ill-informed choice.



So you didn't do your research?  You know that part of the PSO interview where s/he said "So, do you have any questions for me?"...



> But I am entitled to be at least a little irritated when my commissioning program of choice was rescinded mid-selection because of backlog (apparently) and then to open up the program again the following year with a vengeance.



Para 3 of your competition message said "THE LIST OF OPEN MOSIDS IN PARA 2 IS SUBJ TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE DEPENDING ON CF SERVICE REQUIREMENTS"

It did change, because there were no training billets, and instead of saying sorry pal, try again next year, the CF pretty much bent over backwards for you.  Sorry if this makes me a dick, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy.  Honestly, I believe you've got a better deal than the AEAD.  Sure, I see the short term pain, but in the long run this will pay off for you, if you take it for what it is and be glad you got this career opportunity.  Best of luck in your training and studies.


----------



## aesop081

middle_coast said:
			
		

> Was I adequately prepared for the "RMC Experience"  after close to 10 years in the Air Force? Not really.



You should have been. If you were not, you only have yourself to blame. You were in the military all this time, were you not ?



> But I am entitled to be at least a little irritated when my commissioning program of choice was rescinded mid-selection because of backlog (apparently) and then to open up the program again the following year with a vengeance.



Iritated, sure. Get over it. Programs open and close depending on the needs of the CF, not the quantity of sand in your vagina you are willing to put up with.


----------



## Journeyman

middle_coast said:
			
		

> Was I adequately prepared for the "RMC Experience" after close to 10 years in the Air Force? Not really.


 Judging by the tone of 90% of your posts, I'd say that you exemplify the _negative_ RMC stereotypes quite well. 

Of course, with an earlier site name of "lobotomized_NCM," you got a head-start on how you are judged.  :not-again:


----------



## Melbatoast

To be fair, the UTP selections last year were really pretty messed up and I could see the process leaving a bad taste.  My situation was very similar but I got picked for civy u so have no complaints (I love it, actually - highly recommended) now that I'm actually in the program.  

Neither of us applied for UTP but were both offered it.  Great!  But...  I was in the Mega phase on a course in Halifax when I got the news, at which point I had to find a university to get into.  Spotty communication and direction from D-Mil-C, no slack as far as acceptance deadlines, very vague instructions as to which degrees were acceptable (since cleared up, hopefully I'm grandfathered) and so on.  I had no idea who I actually worked for until I stumbled into the local BPSO office one day (the ULO is co-located).  I can imagine a cost move and family issues added on to that.

Back on topic, I haven't talked to anyone who thinks this Seneca thing is a good idea.  A bizarre "degree" coupled with some awfully optimistic training timelines is not likely to work real well, but I'm just some OCdt.  It seems to me as if they're creating de-facto US Army-like Warrant Officers, which would be perfectly fine except they have to function in the current officer development system and culture.  We'll see how they end up being treated.


----------



## skyhigh10

Interesting topic. 

I took interest when certain users introduced this mickey mouse "beat around the bush" type degree. My thoughts:

After my "flight" college experience (not seneca),  I was counselled to get a degree on my own accord and apply as a DEO for the sake of being competitive. I worked hard, went further into debt, and now I am doing what I can to make ends meet. The degree is complete, the paperwork is submitted, and I have received no information or follow up to date. Not complaining! Just stating my current position. Of course, the CF owes me absolutely nothing. 

Perhaps the CF should look further into other flight programs, and see how successful their graduates are within the ranks.


----------



## dimsum

The downfall (as Melbatoast and others have stated) is that these folks may be sidelined when it comes time for promotion out of flying positions (so...Maj?)  As it stands, the CF hires Pilots as Officers, not as Pilots per se; it seems to me a great disservice that they'll get these people in, and then put up an artificial roadblock that they can't progress b/c of their education.  I suppose they can get around it by offering IBDP (not entirely sure of acronym but that program that lets you do your first Bac while in the CF) though...

I agree with Melba that this strikes me as a weird version of the US Army WO Aviator scheme.  Personally, I actually like that idea and it could let Pilots (or whatever trade, really) have the option of specializing in their field rather than progressing in Command if they don't want it.


----------



## Melbatoast

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I agree with Melba that this strikes me as a weird version of the US Army WO Aviator scheme.  Personally, I actually like that idea and it could let Pilots (or whatever trade, really) have the option of specializing in their field rather than progressing in Command if they don't want it.



I agree it would be an interesting approach but being as pilot is the largest officer occupation in the AF and almost all of them have come up through the traditional system, it would require huge amounts of force feeding and understanding in more or less equal measure.  It would be pissing in a lot of people's cornflakes, in other words.  I guess there are a lot of 10th IPC Captains who are pretty happy (I would be too, I think).

Skyhigh, there used to be a very broad program for pilots in colleges with aviation programmes.  There were a lot of colleges involved, 3 or 4 in BC alone.  I don't know how successful it was WRT career development, or even how many folks came up that way.  I looked at it in the early-mid 90s (when I was in HS), I definitely remember they had Trackers in the pamphlet.

It's kinda weird because the UTPNCM acceptable subsidized degrees last year included "aviation," but there are very few actual four-year degree granting aviation programmes in Canada.  University College of the Fraser Valley is one, and the four year deal there costs north of $100k.  I'm really curious if they would have paid for it, versus $3k/yr at a regular university.

Another point - if all the entry standards are going to be the same for all plans, why not take the one that gives you a free degree as a bonus?  It's not going to be any easier to get into Seneca than ROTP or equivalent, and the training schedule is pretty good these days.  BMOQ summer 1, SLT summer 2, PFT summer 3 and Moose Jaw after grad.  I know guys were waiting years for MJ but it sure doesn't look like that anymore.  We've got a few guys going very soon, and 2 CAD actually tried to move some them to an earlier course.  Another couple guys just finished school and have a scheduled 7 month wait - that's status-quo for _any_ course in the CF, and the likelihood is that they will go on an earlier course anyway.

Different strokes for different folks, but be aware of how (what's a less emotive word than "difficult?") your life could be after getting wings given the expectations of an officer beyond just flying.


----------



## dcs

If they want more pilots would it not make sense simply to add more to RMC???    Additional residence space should not be a problem as renovations completed by September.  If I were a candidate wanting to make a career as a military pilot and my options and career path this is what I would certainly want.  

Do they really need individuals with this education?? I assume that if they proceed the numbers will be very small. Sounds like the flight training will be done at Portage and Moosjaw same as other pilots???  Then why add this as an option.

Giving credit it appears towards a degree at Seneca for training in Portage and Moosejaw and not for an RMC degree?? ROTP cadets not sent for PFT unless bi-lingual... same for Seneca I assume???? 

If "scheduled flight training  will this affect or delay those in other streams??? 

Have to add additional bodies to monitor and supervise the students.  

Assume that  they would have to sign a I believe 13 year contract as per the other....... And that after the first year that they would have to re-pay the government for all costs if they do not complete or leave???  

It seems that they already have a way of giving and education to future pilots........... this makes no sense to me but I may be missing something??????

Starting in September ....      Not sure who came up with this and hope it does not blow up in their face.


----------



## RobOfstie

dcs said:
			
		

> If they want more pilots would it not make sense simply to add more to RMC???    Additional residence space should not be a problem as renovations completed by September.  If I were a candidate wanting to make a career as a military pilot and my options and career path this is what I would certainly want.



Certainly a valid opinion.  But everybody has different opinions, and different goals in mind.  I personally think its about time that somebody is trying a new approach to the old RMC  7 years to wings type of training plan.  Its slow, innefficient, and wasteful in my opinion.  The CF needs operational pilots, and I think a program like this could potentially make that happen more efficiently.  I would suspect a lot of people are going to disagree with this, simply because they had to go through a full degree at RMC or Civvy University so why shouldn't everyone else? 

But in MY OWN PERSONAL situation, this CEOTP program would be excellent.  As a currently serving NCM, I *should* only have to do the Officer portion of BMOQ,  I've already got a bunch of university credits, and already am a commercial helicopter pilot/fixed wing pilot.  So I certainly have no interest in going to RMC for four years, and stretching out the training over 4 summers, before I even start any flying courses.   I am fully aware of the potential for this program (should I get accepted) to limit my career  development and/or advancement WRT rank.  But I'm completely okay with that, as I'm really only interested in flying for the CF for the rest of my career.  I really have no burning desire to work my way up the chain of command into administratively heavy positions.  A IPL 10 Captain?  I would be okay with that.  Not that I'm unmotivated or anything, I'm actually extremely motivated and hard working.   Also, not that money is my prime motivator by any means, but as an adult with a mortgage, vehicle payment and a huge student loan for my Helicopter license, it's certainly a consideration.  With this program AFAIK, one would be commissioned as a 2nd LT immediately after graduation from BMOQ.  As opposed to ROTP or RMC where you remain an Ocdt for the duration of your school.  The pay difference between the two is quite a bit, considering I would be giving up a $100 k/year civvy job to persue my dreams.  So, with all these things in mind, this program would seem to make sense FOR ME.  I think its a hell of an idea, and am hoping to be one of the first to test it out!

Rob


EDIT:

I just want to point out before I get jumped on, that I'm certainly aware that as an officer in the CF, flying is a secondary duty, and am prepared to accept that there will be a large amount of administrative duties associated with your daily job.  I'm fully aware of this reality and certainly by no means expect to be flying every single day.  Also, I would like to point out that I don't think that my previous flying experience entitles me to anything, or even helps me at all beyond the application stage, but was told by my interviewing officer who merit listed me that it makes me very competitive.  (But that's an entirely different topic so I digress. . . )


----------



## skyhigh10

Rob,

Two years ago I would have to wholeheartedly agree with you.  This of course is coming from a person who just steamrolled a degree in two years to try and make this possible. This is where I disagree with you, and I endorse a system which is the same for all applicants. After graduating from one of Ontario's few remaining subsidized flight colleges , it would have been *exceptionally convenient* to sign the line and commit to a degree of my choice in said time frame and bypass the aptitude testing, bypass the sims, by pass everything that doesn't exactly have "aviation" attached to it practically.  Though of course, this is not how it works and applicant convenience is not exactly an objective of the CF. I was told explicitly that if I did not have a degree, it just was never going to happen . In the years preceding my graduation (graduates from 2 - 20 years ago), dozens of students have been snatched up and have had / are currently having / are on track to having great careers in a mix of all three aircraft categories ABSENT any degree. With such a heavy success rate from this one college in particular, does it make logical sense to cancel the college entry program  and toss in excess amounts of testing? Perhaps. Many of these pilots have also shared their enormous detest for the almighty sacrosanct prestige of having a degree. This ... does not change anything.   

I learned that I could be right for all the right reasons, have real world flying experience doing precision aerial surveying, attain a degree out of my own pocket (still a good thing anyway right?), meet a lot of great people including current serving officers who happened to be profs at this university, have a great previous record with the CF prior to releasing years ago for post secondary studies... it really doesn't matter. Like I said, I agree that it would be great to just enter the CF as an airman or airwoman and specialize in ones trade absent all the additional crap. Though unfortunately, I think most CF pilots will confess that their duties are 10 fold and seldom confined to the cockpit. 

I learned the system is not perfect. I learned that they may very well have a system that informally produces the desired results but instead turn away to something a bit more ass backwards yet streamlined. I learned that what makes sense to me means absolutely nothing to the recruiting system. I learned that previous flying experience means absolutely nothing at the beginning (pre-interview) stage. I ultimately learned that the CF wants more than just a pilot. This in the long run made it more attractive to me. Even if it doesn't happen, I still achieved a degree on my own accord and pursued it to expand my horizons a bit more. After all, this is isn't suppose to be easy right?  

So when I hear about this new entry program via Seneca, I am a little bit frustrated. Apparently it doesn't take into account a variety of legitimate concerns from people within and outside the system. Why not structure a program where the applicant goes to a flight college for (2) years followed by a university of their choice which will credit (1) year of a (3) year or(4) year program, allowing them to finish in a (4-5) year time frame with exceptional flight training? 

If you can't beat them .....  figure out a way to join them. 

I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## Melbatoast

RobOfstie said:
			
		

> So I certainly have no interest in going to RMC for four years, and stretching out the training over 4 summers, before I even start any flying courses.   I am fully aware of the potential for this program (should I get accepted) to limit my career  development and/or advancement WRT rank.  But I'm completely okay with that, as I'm really only interested in flying for the CF for the rest of my career.  I really have no burning desire to work my way up the chain of command into administratively heavy positions.  A IPL 10 Captain?  I would be okay with that.  Not that I'm unmotivated or anything, I'm actually extremely motivated and hard working.   Also, not that money is my prime motivator by any means, but as an adult with a mortgage, vehicle payment and a huge student loan for my Helicopter license, it's certainly a consideration.  With this program AFAIK, one would be commissioned as a 2nd LT immediately after graduation from BMOQ.  As opposed to ROTP or RMC where you remain an Ocdt for the duration of your school.  The pay difference between the two is quite a bit, considering I would be giving up a $100 k/year civvy job to persue my dreams.  So, with all these things in mind, this program would seem to make sense FOR ME.  I think its a hell of an idea, and am hoping to be one of the first to test it out!
> 
> Rob



As a currently serving NCM you keep your current pay (including spec pay if applicable) with yearly incentives, until such time as officer pay catches up.  If you have done PLQ, you skip BMOQ entirely.  If you have not, you only join for the later portion.  UTPNCM no longer sends students to RMC, so you can transfer credits to your heart's content at the civilian university of your choice.

I do agree that Officer Cadet pay is very poor and makes ROTP an unrealistic choice for more established folks without a degree.  UTP is a completely different story.

I'd be really interested to know where you're going to make $100k a year right out of commercial flight school, as would the hundreds of other grads currently pulling $15 per block-hour.

Flying isn't a secondary duty, but you'll have a shitload of "secondary" duties that are seen as necessary to professional development (let alone normal squadron operation), and you'll constantly hear about getting a language profile if you want to go any farther, and getting an actual degree so you're more competitive among your peers, and so on and so forth.

Am I going to be responsible for all the staff jobs now?  Are they going to set a ceiling for the Seneca-style guys like in the US, an "up or out" policy?  

Interesting discussion, anyway.


----------



## RobOfstie

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> I'd be really interested to know where you're going to make $100k a year right out of commercial flight school, as would the hundreds of other grads currently pulling $15 per block-hour.



Melbatoast :  

I have been an Field/Plant Operator for an Oil and Gas company for the last 7-8 years.  Went and got a commercial helicopter license, then started flying myself into remote oil/gas wells and compressors that aren't accessible by vehicles 9 months out of the year in Northern AB.  Dual trade, dual pay.  Oil company pays the Operator very well, the flight pay (surprise surprise) is piss poor.  Not going back flying this summer though, the work is too unstable.  Flying work until the winter, and then its a gamble if your going to have ground operating work for the winter in a truck or a gas plant.  So I'm back Gas plant operating as an employee where the work is always there no matter what.  

99 % of all low-time flying jobs pay next to nothing.  This one happens to be the 1 % exception, but only because I am Dual trained in a technical trade that pays well.  

Regards,

Rob


----------



## Melbatoast

Gotcha, makes sense.


----------



## SpaceNav

One of my guys just accepted an offer for CEOTP and will be commissioned as a 2Lt.  Prior to receiving his CEOTP offer he had a promotion msg to Sgt.  We have now been told that his promotion to Sgt is cancelled because he accepted CEOTP.  He will go straight from MCpl to 2Lt and get pay based on MCpl even though he was selected and by all rights should be a Sgt.  Also, if the Officer training does not work out and he has to revert back to NCM, he will go back to MCpl instead of the Sgt rank he earned.
I don't think this is a fair decision.  Does anyone have any experience/regs that can help my guy keep his Sgt promo prior to commissioning?


----------



## PuckChaser

Is the effective date of promotion before or after the start date of the CEOTP transfer? If the date is after, why would his trade waste a promotion on someone who won't be in the trade anymore? They should give that spot to someone who will actually work in the rank in that trade.


----------



## SpaceNav

His promo date was 2 Jul and his CEOTP date is 18 Jul.  He will not take the sgt slot from someone else because as soon as he gets commisioned the slot is open again.


----------



## George Wallace

That is tough, but a decision that he made.   You may also like to know, that if he fails he will likely come back as a Cpl, if he does have the oportunity to come back at all.  A msg is not necessarily a promotion.  He had two choices and took one.  He now has to live with it.


----------



## PuckChaser

Some would not agree, but he's also taking a promotion... to 2Lt. But why would they promote him for 2 weeks worth of work?


----------



## George Wallace

Although there was a promotion msg, was he actually promoted.  A msg authorizing permission to promote is just that.  It will set the effective date of the promotion, but if the member IS NOT promoted, then it is only a piece of paper.  It sounds like the member was given a choice, take the promotion to Sgt or take the promotion to 2Lt and CEOTP.  He made his choice.   

It is not like the Career Mgr wasn't talking to him and his CoC.  This would have all been knowledge that they were all privy to and an offer made to the member.  

To try to fight for the best of both worlds now, after the fact, is wrong.


----------



## SpaceNav

He was not told that he would lose his Sgt promotion if he accepted CEOTP.  The entire COC including the CM was blindsided by the promotion cancelation weeks after the member accepted CEOTP.


----------



## George Wallace

SpaceNav said:
			
		

> He was not told that he would lose his Sgt promotion if he accepted CEOTP.  The entire COC including the CM was blindsided by the promotion cancelation weeks after the member accepted CEOTP.




moot points.....Was he or was he not promoted SGT?    If he was not, then this is all for naught.


----------



## dapaterson

Applicable references:  DAOD 2002-6 CEOTP; CFAO 49-4 - Career Policy NCMs Reg F; and CFAO 11-6 - Commissioning and Promotion Policy - Reg F.


After a quick look over those three refs, I saw nothing that directly applies to this situation (NCM to officer).  However, both CFAOs state, essentailly, that if you change occupations you are promotable until the date you change occupations - see CFAO 49-4 paras 26-30 and CFAO 11-6 paras 29-31.

While this situation is somewhat different, the overarching policy intent would seem to be "You're promotable until the day you take on your new occupation.".  In this case, I'd suggest the individual inquire (in writing) to the career manager why the promotion message is being rescinded.  The policy as written says he remains promotable until 17 July.  That he'll only spend two weeks in that rank is irrelevant.


Besides, this way he'll be buying drinks to get out of the Jrs mess, into the Sgts mess, and then out of the Sgts mess and into the officers mess, thus supporting NPF.


----------



## Melbatoast

I was promoted to PO2 from MS the day before I put on my OCdt slip-ons, so I spent less than 24hrs in my new rank.  The only time I signed something as a P2 was when I picked up some more OCdt slip-ons from stores.  I'm not, however, privy to the exact process that made it happen - I mentioned to my Chief that I would still really like to be promoted before moving on, and it happened.

I suspect it has a lot to do with the level of charity from the career manager.  I consider it a "thanks for the hard work, good luck in the future" gesture that I really appreciate - besides which it's not like I didn't earn it.  As has been mentioned, I didn't take anyone's job, it's more like I made somebody's year.  A guy who wasn't going to be promoted that year got made, too.  The billet doesn't disappear into the officer world along with the member.

Surely this post is of little help, except to show that it has happened (and I've personally seen it happen at least one other time, too).


----------



## medicineman

I've seen it happen numerous times to people going UTPNCM to give them a leg up pay wise for their time as an OCdt...never seen it directly before commissioning though.  I suppose it would be nice to be able to say you were able to go into the Sgt's & WO's /C & PO's mess as a memeber before relinquishing your frontal lobe, oops, rank and commissioning, but really don't see any advantage.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## Blackadder1916

Would the promotion of the individual in question be to substantive rank or (if he is lacking a qualification) to Acting/Lacking?  While my experience with and knowledge of other individuals' experiences is dated (the 1980s when it was OCTP instead of CEOTP), the usual practice back then was to promote if to subtantive rank, but cancel the promotion if the individual was unable to meet all necessary qualifications prior to the date he was appointed OCdt or commissioned.


----------



## Melbatoast

medicineman said:
			
		

> I've seen it happen numerous times to people going UTPNCM to give them a leg up pay wise for their time as an OCdt...never seen it directly before commissioning though.  I suppose it would be nice to be able to say you were able to go into the Sgt's & WO's /C & PO's mess as a memeber before relinquishing your frontal lobe, oops, rank and commissioning, but really don't see any advantage.
> 
> :2c:
> 
> MM



The mbr still keeps their NCM pay level as a CEO until such time as the officer pay catches up, do they not?  The reasoning would be the same, in my opinion.  I'm not on a DWAN station so am unable to check the CFAO and CBI.

Blackadder below may have a point, however (I was substantive).


----------



## agc

Did the promotion to Sgt involve a geographic move that didn't happen as a result of the CEOTP?


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> The mbr still keeps their NCM pay level as a CEO until such time as the officer pay catches up, do they not?  The reasoning would be the same, in my opinion.  I'm not on a DWAN station so am unable to check the CFAO and CBI.
> 
> Blackadder below may have a point, however (I was substantive).



No, they created new pay categories (he would fall into 2Lt Pay Cat D IPC (the next one higher than his current NCM pay usually differs by dollars) this would continue until promoted Capt.  That said To accept a promotion to Sgt within 16 Days of effective date of commission would be unethical at best. Roger he merited into the promotion bracket for Sgt the CO can deny the promotion within 14 days to DGMC (which is likely in this case). Another thing to keep in mind is he had to merit into the CEOTP program as well (often forgotten part of this method of commissioning). Sounds to me like a case of having his cake and wanting someone else's. My 2Cents


----------



## SpaceNav

His posting as a Sgt was also cancelled but he is getting another posting as a 2Lt.


----------



## agc

I would guess that the promotion was rescinded because he never actually occupied  won't actually occupy a Sgt position in the establishment. 

Edited to add:



> [QR&O] 11.02 - CONDITIONS GOVERNING PROMOTION
> 
> (1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member shall be promoted to higher rank unless:
> 
> a. there is an appropriate vacancy in the total establishment for the member's component;
> 
> b. the member is recommended by the appropriate authority; and
> 
> c. the member meets such promotion standards and such other conditions as the Chief of the Defence Staff may prescribe.
> 
> (2) In any particular instance or in any given circumstances, the Chief of the Defence Staff may direct that the requirement to meet any promotion standards be waived.
> 
> (3) An officer or non-commissioned member who is enrolled or placed in the Special Force may be promoted to temporary or acting rank only.



A little unfair, since some do get the benefit of moving into a higher ranking position prior to appointment to OCdt or promo to 2Lt, but at least he will still get a raise as Arty pointed out.


----------



## MBeaner

I learned about this program the other week when talking to a recruiter and finding out that I would be ineligible for ROTP. I'm most of the way completed my mechanical engineering degree (will only have two academic semesters left by the time the next ROTP cycle begins, not the three needed) and had this program mentioned to me as a possible alternative to ROTP. 

Reading some of your comments, it seems there is some sort of doubts towards this program and it's advancement opportunities, which stem from however good the degree is if I understand correctly. Would these possible problems still be present for someone coming off of a degree such as mine and into this program? Another reason I'm interested in it is that 5+ of the technical classes (math, statics and dynamics, fluid mechanics, etc) have already been completed through my first degree and I would possibly be able to transfer those credits. 

Or are there some other routes that could be followed to be a pilot, other than DEO, ROTP, or this AEAD?


----------



## aesop081

Once your degree is finished, you could apply for DEO pilot.


----------



## bradlupa

The internal ceotp program is good but has its draw backs.... For instance I am in the process with the boos to change trades to pilot as I have my pilots license with commercial and multi engine but I still need to complete a university degree.  That is while I do all my training for what don't have under my current licenses, which does add to the stress of work as durning the day u learn things and at night well it's books for university, as well as visualizing what needs to be corrected for next flight.  

As for being treated as " second class", that is a false statement.  I have a friend who is a captain engineer  and he is treated the same as any other officer.  Remember most people who go this route are taking their commission and have served for many years in the forces... Not to mention have seen operational tours to afghanistan so the are not looked as SECOND CLASS they are looked at as having experience and are switched on...

Also if you can not complete your chosen trade ie fail you have to choose out of a select few trades after the fact and by select few I mean Armoured officer, engineering officer infantry officer and I cannot remember the last so you have to be switched on and willing to put the time into the courses to obtain what you are after... 

The selection for pilot is very hard and you have to set your self apart from every other applicant to make the very few positions.  Hence why I got my specific ratings and licenses,  wasn't to make it easier once I. It was so beat the competition out.  12 spots out of 100 applicants or more makes ya think what will work to get where u want..


----------



## JohnnySea

Hello, 

I'm currently about to enter my third year at Queen's University for a science degree in Math and Economics.  I applied to become a pilot (ROTP) in January after completing my private pilot's license in December of last year.  Went through the entire application process and passed everything except for a rather long delay in the medical portion of ASC due to a minor eyesight issue- three months to be exact..  As a result of this delay, I missed both the first and second round selection dates for ROTP and I'm currently sitting on the merit list to this day.  The recruitment office mentioned this 'new' program (Seneca-RCAF) back in late June and said its great opportunity for me, as the last day to apply is in August.  All I need to do is write the entrance exam (which I have scheduled for Wednesday of next week) and they said I'll be admitted to the program.  It seems really great! $3500/monthly pay after basic, subsidized aviation technology degree (not a Bachelors degree) and rcaf wings in a matter of four years.  The recruiters seem really excited about it, but I have my doubts.  Like a lot of you said above, there seems to be scepticism about career advancement opportunities etc.. I understand this completely.  My current schooling is fine (very expensive) and I would be happy to finish, but military flying is the main goal and this new path seems fine to me.  Opinions?


----------



## dimsum

JohnnySea said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I'm currently about to enter my third year at Queen's University for a science degree in Math and Economics.  I applied to become a pilot (ROTP) in January after completing my private pilot's license in December of last year.  Went through the entire application process and passed everything except for a rather long delay in the medical portion of ASC due to a minor eyesight issue- three months to be exact..  As a result of this delay, I missed both the first and second round selection dates for ROTP and I'm currently sitting on the merit list to this day.  The recruitment office mentioned this 'new' program (Seneca-RCAF) back in late June and said its great opportunity for me, as the last day to apply is in August.  All I need to do is write the entrance exam (which I have scheduled for Wednesday of next week) and they said I'll be admitted to the program.  It seems really great! $3500/monthly pay after basic, subsidized aviation technology degree (not a Bachelors degree) and rcaf wings in a matter of four years.  The recruiters seem really excited about it, but I have my doubts.  Like a lot of you said above, there seems to be scepticism about career advancement opportunities etc.. I understand this completely.  My current schooling is fine (very expensive) and I would be happy to finish, but military flying is the main goal and this new path seems fine to me.  Opinions?



Here's my opinion:  Finish your B.Sc and then look into DEO Pilot.  Just because the program is available doesn't mean it's not full of teething issues.  Remember, while the trade is Pilot, the CF hires you as an Officer first and Pilot second; you don't want to forego 3 years of a 4-year degree, when the degree will benefit you more for your military (and therefore flying) career.

Another consideration is what happens if you don't finish Pilot training?  Not that I'm suggesting you'll fail, but Pilot training is far from a guaranteed pass.  A degree is required for an officer trade in the CF, and if you don't have one while in the system, they all become closed to you for remuster.


----------



## Niner

Would it not be possible to jump over to the NCM world if pilot training didn't work out?


----------



## dimsum

Niner said:
			
		

> Would it not be possible to jump over to the NCM world if pilot training didn't work out?



It's possible, but will it depend on what's available.


----------



## JohnnySea

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Here's my opinion:  Finish your B.Sc and then look into DEO Pilot.  Just because the program is available doesn't mean it's not full of teething issues.  Remember, while the trade is Pilot, the CF hires you as an Officer first and Pilot second; you don't want to forego 3 years of a 4-year degree, when the degree will benefit you more for your military (and therefore flying) career.
> 
> Another consideration is what happens if you don't finish Pilot training?  Not that I'm suggesting you'll fail, but Pilot training is far from a guaranteed pass.  A degree is required for an officer trade in the CF, and if you don't have one while in the system, they all become closed to you for remuster.



A agree with your opinion and many others have suggested the same thing.  There seems to be a half and half "for" and "against" ratio for this program.  What I think is to take the gamble (meaning attempt the program) and if all fails I can always go back to Queen's and finish my degree.  If I am successful in the program I could also potentially complete my degree on the side so I'd end up with a technology degree as well as BSC - I can see this coupling being highly useful when applying for jobs outside of the airforce.  IF I decided to do DEO, I would be missing nearly 120k in pay over the next 3 years as outlined by the payscale I received yesterday.  4th year Seneca students (2 LT) are payed $48,000/year on top of subsidized school and flight training beginning at $40,000/year as a first year.  If I stay at Queen's Im dishing out over $20,000 for a mere BSC.  The Seneca program is screaming in my ear quite literally.


----------



## RobOfstie

From what I understand, the first round of selections for the CEOTP-AEADS-Seneca program is happening today.  I suspect offers won't start going out though until sometime next week or even the week after.  Regardless, good luck to everyone, and be sure to let us all know how you make out!

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## skyhigh10

Are these seneca slots completely separate from DEO?  Anyone have an idea how many DEO slots have been filled? I understand that when they hit a certain # .... the process stops. Some insight into how many have been hired would be great. Lot's of people waiting @ different stages.


----------



## RobOfstie

AFAIK these spots are completely different from the DEO spots.  Each different entry program has a certain number of spots allocated to it in the Strategic Intake Plan, which of course changes on any given Fiscal Year.  I have heard (from a fairly reliable source) that the TOTAL number of 00183 PLT spots for this fiscal year is somewhere in the neighborhood of 180 ish, and somewhere around 40-50 DEO.   Of course I can't confirm this 100 % so take it as it is.   Remember that ROTP, DEO, CEOTP, CT/OT, as well as the group of Brit Pilots they're bringing over this year all have to come out of this total.   I know a few people waiting for an offer for DEO, and judging by the DEO offer forum running over in recruiting, as well as my friends that are still waiting, it seems that not a lot of offers have gone out yet for DEO.  I suspect due to the large volume of pilots they're hiring this year that things like your Air Factor from DRDC and whatnot are going to slow down the offers a little bit.  I imagine everyone is a little swamped right now.  I tried calling my file manager this week to see if my Air Factor has been assigned prior to my Selection board sitting  (haven't tried calling in nearly 2 months)  and nobody answered the phone both days I called, and the voicemail inbox was full all week.  I would imagine these guys are super busy and it might take a bit before offers start going out as they have a lot of people to process.  Purely speculation of course though.....  I would also suspect that when they meet their Strategic intake number target for a certain entry plan, than yes the process would stop.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## WingsofFury

> Canadian Forces enrol first officers in a new pilot program
> 
> Aug. 21, 2012
> 
> One of the first officers under the new Air Environmental Affiliated Degree (AEAD) program was enrolled in the Canadian Forces (CF) August 17 in a ceremony in Barrie, Ontario.
> 
> Officer Cadet Aaron Jeffrey was sworn in by his father, Major Frank Jeffrey, in the AEAD program, which is a partnership between the CF and Seneca College. The AEAD program blends the academic requirements for the Seneca College’s Baccalaureate in Aviation Technology with the training mandate for a Royal Canadian Air Force pilot.
> 
> “It was really special for me to have my father conduct my swearing-in and for me to follow the same career path as him,” said OCdt Jeffrey. “When I found out about this program, I applied for it right away, because it means that I can get a degree in what I want and my pilot wings at the same time. I’ve been working on my private pilot’s licence for a while now, because I knew I wanted a career in aviation, so this is a great opportunity for me.”
> 
> Successful applicants are enrolled in the CF and undergo their Basic Military Officer Qualification training in Saint-Jean, Quebec, followed by the RCAF Phase I pilot training at 3 Canadian Forces Flying Training School in Portage La Prairie, Manitoba.
> 
> If successful in this initial phase of training, they transfer to the Seneca College and begin academic studies towards their bachelor’s degree. The students then spend the next four years completing requirements to earn their bachelor’s degree and their CF wings.
> 
> The AEAD program is one of the paid education programs available through the Canadian Forces, which offers free tuition, books and academic equipment in addition to a salary with benefits.
> 
> Paid education programs are available for officers and non-commissioned members in a variety of occupations through colleges and universities across Canada, including the Royal Military College of Canada.
> 
> For more information on paid education opportunities, visit www.forces.ca or your local recruiting detachment.



http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=13143


----------



## skyhigh10

Good for Seneca ? 


My layman opinion / inquisition -   is there a big difference between a candidate attending the Seneca program and getting a "technological" degree as opposed to another aviation college student getting their diploma with licenses followed by 1-2 years of Uni and a degree? What is so special about Seneca ? Perhaps this is a friendly (bitter)  rivalry , but the two other Ontario colleges have pilots serving on virtually every aircraft type in the RCAF. I mean in the end, all college candidates come out with near identical credentials. One must still go to school for a year or two in order to attain the degree. If Seneca cut to the chase and did just the flying, it would be 2-3 years. I highly doubt that an RJ simulator, a shirt + tie, and some multi time will make or break your in the Canadian Forces pilot program. It would be interesting to see who proposed this program originally.


----------



## krimynal

Hello everyone , i am new to this forum , been reading alot lately and spent alot of times on different forums and such.  I also read alot of blogs from aspiring pilots and people that graduated some years ago.  Found it very interesting , though no one really could answer my questions.  

So this is my Background , im a 24 years old male , born in arthabaska ( quebec ) , raised in Whitby ( Ontario ) and currently living in Downtown Quebec City , 5 years ago i tryed to join the CF but wasn't ready for it , and really wasn't in the right job for me ( Avian Tech ) , i went trough the Basic Training but eventually dropped out not long in it.  

5 years later here i am , still looking forward to get back in the CF ( always been my dream to fight for the CF ) ever since i was a little boy i wanted to become a pilot , but since i knew i was never gonna go to the university , especially in quebec since before the university you have to do 3 years minimum of CEGEP , i kinda scrath that idea of the list.  

Last month my dream came back , thanks alot for a new program over at Seneca College , basically i am joining the ontario based college , doing my 4 years of university , at the same time as my military selection and training.  All this training and school will also be payed by the CF wich is something really nice for me!

But since the program was quite new , the recruiters couldn't really help me , and espically since the program was for English or Bilingual Students , those recruiters here in Quebec didn't have much information since more then 95% of the applicants are french. 

so my questions are pretty much if anyone has any info on the program...

Like how does it work with the school year ? 
do i still do my phase1 and phase2 in manitoba ?
am i living in some PMQ's ?? 
am i allowed to get an appartement with my girlfriend ??
after i get my degree am i enlisted on the spot as a military pilot ??
is there more test and classes after the school ??


so yeah i have alot of questions. 

My father in law is a 35years of service Veteran, but he was a infantry Master Warrant Officer.  So he can't really help me with the airfoce stuff.  I also have a Brother in Law wich is also an infantry Sergeant here in Quebec he can't really answer my questions neither.  He tryed to speak with some griffon pilots of the 410 here in quebec , but they were pilots before the program got out , so they didn't have much info.

so if anyone of you could help me out , i would really appreciate


----------



## WingsofFury

Separate thread here on the matter...

http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/threads/106261.0.html


----------



## krimynal

thanks i did a search for Seneca this morning , but probably didn't show up because it was named Seneca-CATF

thanks tho , will read all of it

the more info i have the better i feel , ive been spending the last 3 weeks reading as much as i could about what were the selection programs in trenton , how to prepare for it , what kind of questions they were gonna ask , etc. etc. 

hopefully i will be ready in time and make the cut !


----------



## krimynal

This post is really really interesting , i am currently waiting for an admission response over at Seneca , and i think i have so many questions about this class that no one seems to have the answer ....


My situation is quite complicated tho .... I currently live in Quebec City , and since everyone knows , Quebec has CEGEP wich is basically 3 years classes after High School that you have to go trought prior to be able to enlist for University. 

So since there was no Classes in the civi side that really made me interest , i thought about the military side of thing , thats when the recruiter spoke to me about Seneca College.  

I wanted to become a pilot since i was like 7 years old , and with this class i could basically work my way hard to try to become one.

The main questions are pretty much stated here , is this a real degree ??? i mean if ever i dont finish the class "don't make the cut for military pilot" what happens then ??? Can i still fly , Can i do a re-test ?? etc.

is there a way i could go to RMC instead of Seneca even if i don't have a Degree right now ??

i tryed to speak with a recruiter here , but they didn't really help me out , since i was raised in Whitby Ontario i didn't mind going back to Ontario , and since 95% of the applicants over at my recruiting center are mostly French , they didn't have much info about the schooling side of things ....

i tryed to find some answer over here , but i might be a bit dumb ... i can't seem to understand the abreviation and such .... so im trying to read between the lines and read as much as i can.... but i gotta say that this post pretty much tore me appart. 

on one side i really wanna go to seneca so i can fly ASAP , but at the same time , i want to be in the military and climb the ladder .... so should i go to RMC ??? if i wanna go to RMC .... do i really need a university degree prior to joining .... or can i join it while doing on ?? or .... honestly im full of questions haha ..... 

thanks alot to whoever can help me out !


----------



## krimynal

this post pretty much tore me out ........ im reading it and god am i unsure about my decision :S 

im just trying to figure out the best AND quickest way to fly ..... but at the same time , i want to go trought all the step and become a good pilot with all the military requirements , and i don't want to take a class that will put barriers for future promotions and all. 

so yeah .... im lost :S  ...... and to top it off .... since i live in Quebec City but from Ontario , i have to go trough Cegep ( 3 years ) before ever thinking of going trough the University ( 4 years ) BEFORE applying to RMC ( 2-3 years ) .... 

so yeah seneca seemed really nice .... but as i can see .... im pretty screwed as far as the opinions and quality of the class goes ... well thats what i saw ....


----------



## aesop081

krimynal said:
			
		

> Quebec has CEGEP wich is basically 3 years classes after High School that you have to go trought prior to be able to enlist for University.



The CEGEP general program prior to attending university is 2 years, not 3.

The CEGEP professional program is 3 years, prior to entering the work force or going to university (if one chooses).


----------



## krimynal

still ... were talking of at least 5 years , prior to even think of joining RMC ...... then at least 2-3 years .... so ill get out of the school at around 30yrs old ... wich already puts me as "old" for a pilot .... i mean for a begginer ....


----------



## aesop081

You need to do some serious reading on the forces.ca website and here...............


----------



## krimynal

im trying to read as much as i can .... i really didnt meant that as a disrespect or anything ...

im trying to keep my mind open as much as i can ... im simply overwhelmed with everything i am reading ....

im not an active officer of any kind , so all the accronyms i have a hard time understanding them ....

im also really really really overwhelmed with all the info .... i first wanted to join for something i really didnt liked but wanted to go in airforces ... then i realised there is some way i might be able to work my butt off to become a pilot ...

so here i am posting .... trying to figure out everything ...

im reading on forces.ca .... im doing googles searches everyday , trying to understand everything . speaking with some active sergents ( infantry so can't really help me ) 

iv='ve been going to the recruitment center 4 times this month .... and still i have tons of questions .... this is something im taking really seriously .... sorry if i sound stupid ...... i just wish i could get this all sort out !


ADD : and since i live in Quebec , all the info the recruitment center is giving are in french , so when i get to forces.ca im trying to read in french to get it all sorted out , but then i come to this forum and most of the people on here and english speaking person , so im trying to formulate it at the best as i can ... but the terms arents the same , and im trying to figure them out slowly 1 by 1 !


----------



## aesop081

krimynal said:
			
		

> im trying to read as much as i can .... i really didnt meant that as a disrespect or anything ...



No disrespect taken. You are asking some question that even a cursory reading of the CF recruiting website would answer for you.


----------



## krimynal

alright , well thanks anyways , ill try to go back to the website and learn from that point !! 

thanks eventhought !


----------



## Zoomie

The CF doesn't care what degree you have or what entry plan you came in under.

The Seneca program is just another recruitment tool.  All your training will be done with everyone else in Sask or Manitoba. You will be enrolled on day one as an Officer Cadet, once you get your degree you will be commissioned. 

I recommend you visit a recruiting centre in Ontario - maybe Ottawa would be a good starting location.


----------



## krimynal

yeah well thats pretty much what im planning next , no disrespect on the Recruitment center here in Quebec City ... but the academics from Quebec to ontario are verry different , i might try to call / email ottawa first , and if it becomes to hard ill drive up there , its only 4h , not a big deal haha !


----------



## aesop081

krimynal said:
			
		

> but the academics from Quebec to ontario are verry different



Its not really relevant to all the questions you have been asking. It is also rather simple. No disrespect towards you but, as i said by PM, I am certain that you just haven't grasped what recruiters have said to you.


----------



## krimynal

my point exactly why i want to go see an other recruiter , maybe i just didnt understand right and i might understand more with an other one ... i also havnt even spoke once about doing a degree in Ontario , he told me the Seneca College or that i could do Cegep + University to enlist for pilot ( well thats what i understood )


----------



## Justin.D

Good morning ladies and gentlemen. 

I'm just curious to see who on here is currently applying for, or has been accepted into, the new CEOTP Pilot program (the CF/Seneca program). 

Figured it would be good to touch base and exchange information regarding deadlines, processes, selection board dates, etc.

My process thus far can be found here
Coles notes:  Waiting to be merit listed. 

Does anyone have any concrete (as concrete as it can be) information as to when the next selection board for CEOTP is? 

Cheers.

- Justin


----------



## RobOfstie

Well after many years of hard work, and waiting patiently I'm excited to say my CT/OT for Pilot has gone through.   CT'd into CEOTP-AEADS Seneca program.  Starting BMOQ-Mod 2 in December, with PFT to follow immediately afterwards.  Needless to say, I'm pretty excited!! 

Cheers,

Bdr. Ofstie


----------



## et30

Congrats!!! Did you just find out today?!! I'm still in a holding pattern anxiously waiting every day. Oh well. Lucky you!!


----------



## RobOfstie

ET30 - 

I found out last week, and received my official offer today.  Are you CT/OT'ing or a Civvy applicant?  If you are a CT/OT and are 3's qualified then you will most likely receive an Initial Assessment Period (IAP) Bypass and will go straight to MOD 2 BMOQ.  If this is the case there is lots of time to get your offer yet, as there are two BMOQ courses running this fall with  the first MOD-2 starting  OCT. 1 and the second course MOD2 starting December 5.  But if you are a civvy applicant off the street the last start date for the full BMOQ this year is Sept. 24.  Hopefully you get some good news soon!  Typically they throw this stuff at you last minute, but I pushed my file manager in D MIL C for an answer because I needed to give my civilian employer as much notice as possible.  Seems to have worked in my situation.  Hopefully you hear something soon!  Good Luck!

Cheers


----------



## et30

I'm a CT, hopefully a full PLQ will grant the whole BMOQ bypass. Although I've heard mixed reviews about this happening... I was told unofficially that they're just waiting for the 1 CAD MOSID advisor to decide where I'll do the OJT.  But that was three weeks ago and I thought I'd have heard something by now. Oh well. It seems most candidates from my ASC course off the street have their offers and a few CT's without PLQ have theirs so it's just myself and a few others that are waiting. I guess there's not much more I can do but cross my fingers!


----------



## RobOfstie

ET30 -  

You should receive a complete BMOQ bypass.  They're getting a lot better at doing PLAR's and with PLQ complete you SHOULD and most likely will bypass St. Jean entirely.  If that's the case, you've got lots of time as the first batch of Seneca candidates are supposed to be on PFT in portage early in 2013 so you may not hear anything right away.  I've had to push people and stay on top of my file every step of the way to ensure things were happening with my CT.  I pushed my file manager in D MIL C for an answer in the last few weeks as I needed to give as much notice to my civvy employer as possible.  You could certainly try to push them for an answer, but they are totally swamped right now trying to get all these offers out so you may just get stonewalled.   Good luck!

Cheers


----------



## hootbag

Hey, 

I'm working through the application process for the new CEOTP Pilot program.  

I'd like to chat with some current students already at Seneca.  If any are on the forum, could you please PM me?  

Much appreciated!  Thanks!


----------



## RobOfstie

hootbag said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> I'm working through the application process for the new CEOTP Pilot program.
> 
> I'd like to chat with some current students already at Seneca.  If any are on the forum, could you please PM me?
> 
> Much appreciated!  Thanks!



Hootbag,

The Ab-initio batch of RCAF-Seneca students are currently just on their BMOQ or will be starting it shortly.  There are no RCAF candidates currently at Seneca, and won't be until next fall.   You could talk to Civilian Seneca Students if you like, but the RCAF- Air Environmental Affiliated Degree at Seneca is vastly different from their Civilian Commercial Aviation program.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## hootbag

Ok, thanks Rob.  I was under the impression they were already in class.  Will PFT follow BMOQ?


----------



## RobOfstie

Yes, the idea is to have PFT done before the first acedemic year at Seneca.  None of the Seneca candidates that I know have been course loaded yet or given any firm dates on PFT.  But it's safe to say it will happend sometime over the Spring/Summer 2013.  

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## Zoomie

PFT during the summer?  Better get in line with the ROTP crowd.  Summer is the busiest time at CWATC - lots of students and plenty of delays. Fingers crossed....


----------



## FL360

Firstly, if this is in the wrong thread then mods please feel free to delete this topic. Sorry in advance.

I am wondering if the CEOTP Seneca pilot partnership is still going on? Based on my research, both on these forums and elsewhere, I have been getting mixed reviews. Some say it is closed and only opened if the supply in the ROTP route is not fulfilled. Others say it is open and are currently taking in applications. I have tried calling my local recruiter, but it seems like I never get threw, so I figured if anyone has any knowledge on this could come through. Also, it is to my understanding that you must undergo Seneca's pre-tests before you actually start the course. Are these tests done after you send your application to the forces, or is it done beforehand by Seneca?

Thanks


----------



## DAA

CEOTP Pilot is still open for this year and accepting applications.  They are also processing for 2013 at this time too....


----------



## hootbag

Does anyone know if Seneca College or the CF will grant any credit from previous University, Commercial or ATPL licenses, or other prior learning towards the aviation technology degree?


----------



## The_Falcon

hootbag said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if Seneca College or the CF will grant any credit from previous University, Commercial or ATPL licenses, or other prior learning towards the aviation technology degree?



That is what the PLAR (prior learning and recognition) process is for.  The CF has a PLAR process for granting qualifications and almost universally post-secondary institutions  have one for previous learning (sometimes its just a simple matter of transferring credit).  No one here can tell you for sure if anything you have done previously will be granted to you.  You need to go through the process and see what happens.  And before you ask, there will be information on Seneca's website on how to request a PLAR, so look it up and speak to them.


----------



## FL360

anyone know when the first round of selections take place for the ceotp program? Heard it is in april?


----------



## DAA

Late Feb and then again in early Jun.


----------



## FL360

DAA said:
			
		

> Late Feb and then again in early Jun.



Thanks. I just gave in my application. Assuming that I pass all tests and whatnot, would I be able to make that late Feb. deadline, or no?


----------



## DAA

FL360 said:
			
		

> Thanks. I just gave in my application. Assuming that I pass all tests and whatnot, would I be able to make that late Feb. deadline, or no?



Probably NOT.  If you just applied, you still have to......write the CFAT, do the Medical, do the Interview, do Aircrew Selection, do the Aircrew Medical.........and the list goes on.......

Pilot is not a quick process...


----------



## FL360

DAA said:
			
		

> Probably NOT.  If you just applied, you still have to......write the CFAT, do the Medical, do the Interview, do Aircrew Selection, do the Aircrew Medical.........and the list goes on.......
> 
> Pilot is not a quick process...



I understand, thanks!


----------



## DAA

FL360 said:
			
		

> I understand, thanks!



Don't give up though......just keep pressing on!


----------



## FL360

DAA said:
			
		

> Don't give up though......just keep pressing on!



Yep, I surely will! By the way, I have heard that one (assuming your only holding a high school diploma) can apply for the ceotp and rotp plan at the same time. Do you know how this is done, or if it is true? Thanks


----------



## skyhigh10

DAA said:
			
		

> Probably NOT.  If you just applied, you still have to......write the CFAT, do the Medical, do the Interview, do Aircrew Selection, do the Aircrew Medical.........and the list goes on.......
> 
> Pilot is not a quick process...



I second this. 

As I said in another thread, some of us have been working on this process for nearly a decade. I'd say even if you applied in January, you're looking at 4-8 months. There is LOTS to do.


----------



## Good2Golf

A decade?


----------



## skyhigh10

7 years as indicated in a previous post from my first CFAT. I said a near decade. 7/10 = 70% of a year. I figured it was close enough. 

 It's not an easy trade to get into. If it was, everyone would do it. My recent application began last December. Mix in delay after delay and other issues emanating from one specific centre, the process carried through an additional year. 

Smooth sailing now though


----------



## Bzzliteyr

7 years is %70 percent of a year?  I thought you said a decade...

..just saying.


----------



## Good2Golf

Decade, nearly a decade (your words), seven years (your revised words, not in any other of your postings, BTW) -- anyway, by "working on the process", are you saying that you have been in the CF/RCAF recruiting system as a pilot candidate for seven years?  That was the basis of my question behind your statement of the process taking such a long time.

If you meant instead, that you have personally been preparing yourself for seven years in order to maximize the likelihood of your being accepted as a pilot candidate into the RCAF, that is a different issue.  That is not an issue of the CF recruiting process taking an inordinately long time, for pilot, or any other occupation/MOSID.  

Your post above implies that the CF/RCAF was a contributor to the long period that you noted.


Regards
G2G


----------



## skyhigh10

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> 7 years is %70 percent of a year?  I thought you said a decade...
> 
> ..just saying.



Thanks so much for pointing that out! Was in a rush to get to work. Other than knowing I meant to say 70% of a decade.... did you get the point? 



			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Decade, nearly a decade (your words), seven years (your revised words, not in any other of your postings, BTW) -- anyway, by "working on the process", are you saying that you have been in the CF/RCAF recruiting system as a pilot candidate for seven years?  That was the basis of my question behind your statement of the process taking such a long time.
> 
> If you meant instead, that you have personally been preparing yourself for seven years in order to maximize the likelihood of your being accepted as a pilot candidate into the RCAF, that is a different issue.  That is not an issue of the CF recruiting process taking an inordinately long time, for pilot, or any other occupation/MOSID.
> 
> Your post above implies that the CF/RCAF was a contributor to the long period that you noted.



Click the following link and see reply # 12 . You will notice seven years was stated. 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/108575/post-1197576.html#msg1197576    

How long did I wait? I have had this *new* application in the system for 1 year. The “CF” as you stated, was in fact a direct contributor to delays encountered, as was I.  I first approached recruiting on the subject 7 years ago. Yes, I suppose when we’re dealing with individual applications 7 years is a stretch for processing so forgive me for taking your post out of context. Yes, in those 7 years I made tough decisions and did what I could to “maximize the likelihood of being processed / accepted as a pilot in the RCAF”. From education to licensing, I did what I could to strengthen my case across the spectrum. 

I’d be here all day explaining my story/situation, so maybe when and if success finds me, I will post in the personal stories section. Would make for quite the interesting read, I assure you. Maybe even grind a few gears ... 

Thanks for your input and good luck


----------



## scheeseman

Good day,

I've been considering a applying for CEOTP .  I know there is a requirement for time remaining on contract (13 years I believe for combat arms).  If you have less than 13 years left, can you still apply?  I currently have 8 years left but I would sign an extension if I was able to apply.  Or is UTPNCM/CFR the only way I could go?

If someone could help me out or direct me to a thread with similar info, please let me know.

thanks


----------



## Ostrozac

You won't find very many clear answers on the CEOTP program for serving members. The administration of it is pretty muddy and complicated. In short, if you are serving on an IE20 or IE25, you will still be able to apply, and your terms of service will probably not be changed.

Let's say you're on your 17th year of service, year 17 of an IE25. You are commissioned under CEOTP as an Infantry officer. In my experience, you would not then start a 13 year Variable Initial Engagement taking you to 30 years of service, rather you would stay on your IE25, and would be looking at receiving an IPS offer at around 22 or 23 years of service (when you're a two or three year Captain, in this example).

CEOTP for serving members is an incredibly complicated subject. Do your research, talk to people that have used the program, and still keep an eye out for surprises -- the references are very badly written.


----------



## scheeseman

Thank you for the info, very much appreciated.  Will continue to do more research via BPSO, and will post what I find out. 

thanks again.


----------



## Melbatoast

Moreover, I'm fairly sure the years remaining required are to compulsory retirement, not years left on contract. If you get selected for such a program I'm sure they'd be happy to offer new TOS as required as long as it doesn't run you over the 60 year old mark.

"WITH MIN YRS OF SVC REMAINING TO CRA...INDICATED IN BRACKETS" is what I see on an older message I had lying around, and yes, 13 of them needed for the combat occupations. UTPNCM has the same requirement if I recall correctly, but as long as you are sub 47 years old at selection time you ought to be good to go.

I would really recommend UTPNCM as the better program, not only because of the guaranteed degree which has some utility once you get out of the CF, but if you have any rank rung on the pay is better because you keep everything. That came as a surprise to me when I as a UT compared notes with some internal selection CEOs who were pretty shocked I kept it all including spec pay (one of those murky things mentioned above). 

At least apply for both if your desired occupations are available under each plan.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

I'm a CEOTP (Prev Non-Commissioned Service) heres the story. While the administration is a pain in the rear. Let me dispel some myths.  Your effective date of commissioning is the day you ceased to be an NCM (you may wear the OCdt slip-ons until you pass BMOQ2) but you will be paid in the the closest IPC above what you were making before in the appropriate pay category CBI 209.211 refers. This is as opposed to once you have been an OCdt at RMC (or civy U) for 4 years while being paid roughly the same (probably less as you will either be collecting PLD and/or LDA for a Cbt Arms Trade if CEOTP).

The challenge comes when you actually try to find time to work on your degree. not always easy.  As for TOS it may, or may not change depending on your current TOS, time remaining to CRA, and the time required to reach OFP.


----------



## DAA

Air Force_fella said:
			
		

> Thank you for the info, very much appreciated.  Will continue to do more research via BPSO, and will post what I find out.
> 
> thanks again.



There is no CEOTP Program for 2013.  The last one was the 2012 program announcement at CANFORGEN 137/11.  DAOD 5002-6 provides details.

No idea if there will be anything for 2014 but if there is, it is usually announced in Aug for the following year.


----------



## FL360

Just wondering if anyone will be doing the upcoming pre test for Seneca for the ceotp pilot program. If you are, please feel free to share some study tips. A recruiter told me that test is supposedly 10 times harder than the cfat, but judging from the practice tests, it seems that a review of gr. 11 math and english would be sufficient.


----------



## ezbeatz

You guys have a lot of questions about Seneca. I'll try and answer some. I'm finishing my fourth year there at the moment. I'm doing the regular Seneca program of course (not the CEOTP since they just brought that in). From what I hear, the first CEOTP candidates started this year (fall of 2012). I don't know any of them personally since the first year is at a different campus. I believe the academic program is the same for everybody but during the summer flying semester, the CEOTP candidates will do their BMOQ & PFT or whatever the RCAF has them doing while everybody else does their civilian flight training at Buttonville (soon to be Peterborough).

Seneca does not give prior credit for aviation licenses/ratings as they want to train you their way. They do have an expedited PPL phase for those that already have theirs but that's it (and it would only apply to the civi program anyways). That being said, if you already have a CPL, MIFR, ATPL, then why are you going to Seneca? It's a 3 year degree spread over 4 years with the flying in between. So if you want a regular bachelor degree than just do a three-year degree at half the cost somewhere else or an honours degree or get the military to pay you to go to Western and party for 4 years. For the RCAF, if you have a CPL I believe that gives you a bypass on the PFT phase as well.

If you guys have any questions about Seneca feel free to PM me.


----------



## dimsum

ezbeatz said:
			
		

> .....or get the military to pay you to go to Western and party for 4 years.



You almost make it sound like a bad thing


----------



## krimynal

So I decided after a lot of discussion with my girlfriend that , for my future career , I should join a civi university and try to do my degree over there , at the same time I would try to join the reserve and then switch to the regular once my degree is completed.  

But after some thoughts I'm questioning myself about the possibility of trying to reapply for ROTP next year .... Since I want to become a Pilot , other then the money factor , is there any advantages doing that ? I would try to do ROTP in a Civi-university , but I know it would make a longer contract at the end of it.  Usually you will be doing your officer classes in the summer ( which I would be doing with the reserve also ).  Would it make my career faster ? I mean would I be able to fly sooner then if I do a civi degree and then switch to regular ??? 

Knowing that I would most likely have done all my classes by the end of my degree ( I mean my Officer class and training as a reservist ) Will I have to do any type of classes that are different from Reserve to Reg that would add length to my career ???

Thanks a lot !!


----------



## DAA

When you applied ROTP Pilot, did you also ensure to include AEAD Pilot as well?  If you passed all your Pilot processing including ASC and your original intent was ROTP, your file "should" also be included for CEOTP - AEAD as well?

Emphasis on the term "should"....


----------



## krimynal

I didn't apply for ROTP this year ( wanted to but didn't have the requirements ) that's why I decided to go to a Civi uni , but I'm thinking about applying next year , If I can stay to a CIVI uni ( not really interested in RMC )


----------



## DAA

krimynal said:
			
		

> I didn't apply for ROTP this year ( wanted to but didn't have the requirements ) that's why I decided to go to a Civi uni , but I'm thinking about applying next year , If I can stay to a CIVI uni ( not really interested in RMC )



Try next year or if you want and depending on your current file status, you may want to consider AEAD at Seneca College.  Something to think about!

Edit - link added  --->   http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilotofficer-32#ceotp


----------



## krimynal

AEAD is the new program they got out that you do your degree at seneca college in toronto and you also get your wings at the same time ??? That way you save a lot of time right ??? or you only do the first fying class ( you still have to go to portage don't you ? )


----------



## mariomike

krimynal said:
			
		

> AEAD is the new program they got out that you do your degree at seneca college in toronto and you also get your wings at the same time ???



RCAF-Seneca Pilot Partnership  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106261.0/nowap.html


----------



## krimynal

thanks will read !


----------



## krimynal

so many pro's and con's for ALL the choices haha. I will do a little more searching thanks for everything


edited so it wouldn't get out of proportion


----------



## George Wallace

krimynal said:
			
		

> so many pro's and con's for ALL the choices haha , So many questions left unanswered , and I think the fact that it's still a new program , there are many of questions that would only be able to be answer in some years , but the biggest thing that everyone seems to point out , is that the Seneca College degree , isn't a "true" degree , it's like half a degree , and it will probably stop you further in your career for promotion.  Don't know if it's true but it makes some kind of sense , I mean .... I guess hahaha ( as you can see I'm still trying to grasp all the info ).



WOW!......Just so unbelievable!   I hope you are not currently in the position to be applying to an institution of HIGHER Learning.  You have barely met the standards of an institution of lower Learning. 

You have been on this site long enough to KNOW that we demand a higher standard of our members when it comes to written English communication skills.  So far you are a failure at achieving any of those standards.


----------



## jwtg

George Wallace said:
			
		

> WOW!......Just so unbelievable!   I hope you are not currently in the position to be applying to an institution of HIGHER Learning.  You have barely met the standards of an institution of lower Learning.
> 
> You have been on this site long enough to KNOW that we demand a higher standard of our members when it comes to written English communication skills.  So far you are a failure at achieving any of those standards.


I believe his first language is French, which explains some of the justifiable language issues.  Capitalization and grammar though...you would think those would be simple enough.


----------



## George Wallace

Even if it is French; you don't carry on a sentence with more than one train of thought.  His first sentence has nine distinct train of thoughts.


----------



## krimynal

I don't think calling me a failure was really appropriate , but I don't want to carry on the subject.  Hope everyone had a good day


----------



## Loachman

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/110078/post-1221994.html#msg1221994

No mention of English being his second language.


----------



## krimynal

I was born in Quebec , lived in Ontario for 3 years , came back to Quebec , went back to Ontario , and so-on ...... yeah I do have problem speaking both , and writting both , which is why I'm attending night school to help me , I didn't want to piss off anyone on here , tryed to ask questions with the best of my knowledge.  

You can just lock and nuke the thread 

+++ the spell check didn't work sorry for the mistakes +++


----------



## Loachman

Knowing that, we can be a little patient. I appreciate the effort that you are making.


----------



## hootbag

Does anyone have any current information on how this program is coming together?  I'm hearing that some details are still being ironed out.

Thanks.


----------



## RobOfstie

hootbag said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any current information on how this program is coming together?  I'm hearing that some details are still being ironed out.
> 
> Thanks.



There are some logistical details still being ironed out, yes.  However the rest of the program is coming together quite nicely.  AFAIK there are roughly 20 or so Seneca Candidates that were recruited to start at Seneca this fall.  We are the AB-Initio batch of students, so there aren't any RCAF Pilot-candidates at Seneca yet.  The training system is currrently firing on all cylinders so it would appear that the tight timelines for the program are not completely unreasonable.  They are having us complete the majority of our smaller courses this spring/summer prior to starting Seneca this fall.  AMT, Sea Survival, Land Survival, and Phase 1 in Portage prior to the start of the school year.   It's great because there is very little time sitting around on OJT.  Seneca in September for one school year, then Phase 2 & 3 back to back starting next spring.  Upon wings grad you return to Seneca for your final semesters while waiting for your OTU, which depending on what community you're in can be very long.  It's actually an excellent use of time/rsources as far as I'm concerned, and should definitely reduce the wait/cost of Pilot training in the CF, which was the idea behind the creation of this program.  

There's a quick overview of the program, if you have any questions let me know.

Cheers


----------



## hootbag

Great information, thank you.  

Do you know if previous post-secondary education is being awarded any credit towards completing the Seneca degree?

Do you know where do they plan on housing the students while in school?

Thanks!


----------



## Zoomie

RobOfstie said:
			
		

> Seneca in September for one school year, then Phase 2 & 3 back to back starting next spring.  Upon wings grad you return to Seneca for your final semesters while waiting for your OTU, which depending on what community you're in can be very long.  It's actually an excellent use of time/rsources as far as I'm concerned, and should definitely reduce the wait/cost of Pilot training in the CF, which was the idea behind the creation of this program.


I see a few problems with that plan - Phase 3 airframe selections are based on the next available OTU slots - not ones that are 8-10 months down the road.  OTU's also expect Pilots to show up with valid IRT's that won't expire during the course.  A few growing pains - but hopefully it will work out.


----------



## Unknown21

RobOfstie said:
			
		

> There are some logistical details still being ironed out, yes.  However the rest of the program is coming together quite nicely.  AFAIK there are roughly 20 or so Seneca Candidates that were recruited to start at Seneca this fall.  We are the AB-Initio batch of students, so there aren't any RCAF Pilot-candidates at Seneca yet.  The training system is currrently firing on all cylinders so it would appear that the tight timelines for the program are not completely unreasonable.  They are having us complete the majority of our smaller courses this spring/summer prior to starting Seneca this fall.  AMT, Sea Survival, Land Survival, and Phase 1 in Portage prior to the start of the school year.   It's great because there is very little time sitting around on OJT.  Seneca in September for one school year, then Phase 2 & 3 back to back starting next spring.  Upon wings grad you return to Seneca for your final semesters while waiting for your OTU, which depending on what community you're in can be very long.  It's actually an excellent use of time/rsources as far as I'm concerned, and should definitely reduce the wait/cost of Pilot training in the CF, which was the idea behind the creation of this program.
> 
> There's a quick overview of the program, if you have any questions let me know.
> 
> Cheers



Does anyone know if there will be more than one group or more than 20 applicants?

Based on what was said it sounds like they have a group already (and even started), so are no longer looking to recruit for this upcoming fall?

Anyone able to verify? Wondering as I just got merit listed and am wondering if I wont hear anything until next year now.... (if I'm competitive enough)


----------



## RobOfstie

Sorry for the delayed response, it's been busy with all the courses happenings quickly.  To answer some of your questions; AFAIK NO, previous credit will granted towards the completion of the Seneca program.  The program is tailor made for the RCAF and you will be required to take all the same courses as everyone else.  As far as housing goes this is where the guessing game begins.  We have all been told to wait out on this, as Ottawa has yet to make a decision on whether it will be a full posting or a just TD in which case we would most likely live in Residence.  At this point it's anyone's guess so no pointing speculating.  As far as the number of people enrolled this year, there were 40 slots allocated for the Seneca program but they were only able to fill just over 20.  I would assume for this fiscal year the intake number would be around 40 as well with the group starting school Fall of 2014.   Interestingly enough I've Heard Seneca wanted min 20 students to run the program and there have already been a number of training failures at PFT with the new syllabus being so short.  The attrition rate there lately has been insane.  I don't know how many Seneca candidates are left but I guess we'll. See in the fall, provided I make it through PFT over the next 6 weeks haha.  

Zoomie-. I'm not too sure how it works in other communities, but here in TacHel guys are coming off phase 3 helo in droves and the wait for the OTU in Gagetown is now almost a year for most of them.   Since they aren't TAFO qualified that means they are sitting around not flying.  Perhaps the other communities are different??

Hopefully that answers some of your questions

Cheers


----------



## sebastian.s

Hello everyone,
I have no idea if this is the right place to post but... I am looking to join the air force as a pilot (Transport or Fighter) and am deciding on which entry plan to use (ROTP or CEOTP-pilot). I am currently in grade 11. Could somebody tell me the specifics of both, as I'm not sure which is best for me. I am planning on doing my private pilot's license next summer (2014) through air cadets, which begins on July 1st and ends August 17. This means I cannot apply to CEOTP-pilot next year (officer training begins somewhere in July), which happens to be the year I graduate high school. Should I wait and take this entry plan the next year, or go to university/collage and then ROTP? Or should I drop the idea of the PPL as I will be trained anyways? Will it help me in any way? Again, sorry if this is in the wrong board, I'm new.
Edit: Source I used: http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32#education-3


----------



## Loachman

This has been discussed here before.

Spend some time reading old threads and exploring via the Search Function.

If you cannot do some simple research on your own, y'ain't going to make t very far in the Pilot training programme.


----------



## hootbag

Any updates on the program?  Have they decided on TD or posting for Seneca?  Any word on accommodations?  Will the program be moving to Seneca's new facility in Peterborough?

Thanks!!


----------



## RobOfstie

Just a quick update for those who are interested / enrolled in this program.  We got the word about a month ago that we would be responsible for our own rations & quarters.  It's a prohibited posting to Toronto, which means you cannot move any furniture or effects, and you're not entitled to PLD or house hunting trip or any of the benefits that come along with a full posting.  We were told to very strongly consider living in Residence, and given that we cannot move any of our belongings or household items, it's really the only viable option.  Oh and by the way, Residence at Seneca Newnham Campus costs $1450.00/month each, including food & parking.  Certainly not cheap.

The program is based at the Newnham Campus.  The civilian aviation students will do their flying at the Buttonville Airport I believe.  For the RCAF students we are only doing academic studies while here so we will spend the majority if not all our time at Seneca Newnham.

There's the latest information, I'll update this thread as more information becomes available, since nobody seems to know anything about this program except those that are in it.  Even then we only get limited information, sporadically it seems.  

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## aviatrixx

I'm currently attending Seneca as part of the first class under the new AEAD program. There was a lot of speculation about this program as it was so new, that many facts were unanswered, essentially until we arrived on the ground here in Toronto.

I'm a former MARS officer with a few years in, so my application process was different than someone coming off the street. That said, if anyone has any particular questions about that please post them.

Last I checked there was little on the DIN or the website and the information between recruiting offices has differed, through no fault of their own but this program is just that new. The kinks are still being worked out.

It's important to note that since we're the first course, the program may change between now and next September, but for the time being this is how things are being done here.

1) 12 of the 13 members were prohibited posted to the school, (13th was prohib posted but on IR) this means PLD and a costed move was NOT provided, nor is a house hunting trip if you'd like to live off campus. Be prepared to pay the going rate for rent in Toronto unassisted while you are here. Basic living expenses in residence end up equating to roughly 60-65% of your net income as a 2Lt. I can't give you an exact number because everyone is a little different. But please be aware of this fact!

Food is your own cost (loosely worked in to the percentage above), but whether you choose to cook on a hot plate in your room or pay a meal plan is up to you. I think all of us are cooking. It's far cheaper. Again R&Q arrangements may change by 2014. 

2) Residence is run to a civilian standard and is...ok. It's loud, but they are decent enough. Military members are housed two to a dorm and our rooms are clustered together so that makes studying easier.

3) Have money ready for ancillary fees, parking, books, gym pass and the like, (about 800$). Some fees and obviously your books are claimable but September is the busiest month for the admin cell so, you may not get your claims back right away. Again, no fault of their own. They are admittedly understaffed. You could ask for an advance, but it's just easier to have the money on hand so you're not left waiting without books etc.

4) This is a civilian school and you MUST be proactive with your learning. You're 1 of some 90 students (military is mixed in with civvies) in the program. IF you have problems you MUST sort them out quickly and on your own initiative. 

5) We are not taking all the same classes as the civvie students. Classes for semester 1 are: 

-Mechanics for Engineers (MEC110), 
-Single Variable Calc (MTH110), 
-Chemistry (CHEM300), 
-Electronics (ELE100) and
-French (FSL100). 

We were NOT able to apply for advanced standing in any courses (regardless of far along you may be in university, I was in 3rd year of a BSc). The only course that could be substituted was French. We are supposed to be taking some CAFJOD courses but there has been a delay in commencing those courses. 

I would suggest looking up the courses on the Seneca site to see what you will cover. I've noticed the people straight out of highschool seem to be fine but people like me that haven't been in highschool for 11 years or in post sec sciences for 5 years are rusty!  I HIGHLY recommend either buying a used copy the text book or doing your own review based on the course material.  The age range of students is 17 to 33, with 20years old being about the average.

6) There is NO flying here, some students were told there would be. Though, the program chair is is trying to get us checked out on the King Air simulator they have at this campus. 

7) Academic failures: you stop the Seneca program immediately and it will decided (by who I'm not sure) whether or not you can pursue another degree via regular CEOTP at a different Uni.

8 ) There's rumours that I've heard that you don't have to do PFT first. That's false. 

9) You do two semesters here, then go to Moose Jaw for Ph2 and complete Ph3 (MJ or Portage) then finish 3 more semesters back here in Toronto and you're done!

10) Promotions are tied to the MOC qualification as per normal.


All in all once the kinks get worked out of the program it will be pretty awesome. But it's my personal opinion that this is an entry plan really suited to younger applicants. Being a mature student in this environment is, well, tiring! Again that's just a personal statement. Getting a CT is a gamble, so I decided it was best to jump at the chance,  chance of a life time really, than to risk it despite being pretty very close to finishing another degree.

Best of luck to anyone in the process, and I'm happy to provide you with any info I can.


----------



## DAA

aviatrixx said:
			
		

> Last I checked there was little on the DIN or the website and the information between recruiting offices has differed, through no fault of their own but this program is just that new. The kinks are still being worked out.



Glad to see someone from the program making themself available to answer questions.

There is a CANFORGEN available on this program that came out in early 2012, which CFRC's have/were sent and they also have several presentations and information guides at their disposal so they can explain CEOTP/AEAD Pilot to applicants.  Why they don't read these and provide this information, is anyone's guess.  It's probably just easier to say "I don't know!"


----------



## aviatrixx

DAA, 

They made some of the documentation available, but I only had access to it because I was already in, you know? I also had an agreeable chain that  sent queries on my behalf. But honestly, other than that the program was a go I had scant details until early August 2013; I took my transfer in Nov 2012. By the time I left BC, my local recruiting centre, try as they might didn't have any more details.

Oh well, a new program is always going to have hiccups!


----------



## SkyHeff

Thanks for the update. I've had a number of senior applicants inquire as to getting into pilot via the AEAD program. The timeframe is very appealing to them, but we usually get a few questions on the life & environment.

Thanks again for passing it on.


----------



## aviatrixx

Heff, my pleasure. This forum served me well in the past when I was looking for info. It's the least I can do!


----------



## MikeD

Thank you for the information. 

You said you were a 2Lt. Is everyone else in the course one as well? I was thinking everyone would be an officer cadet?


----------



## aviatrixx

Yup. Everyone is a 2Lt. I just held my rank when I  CT'd from the NavRes (mere weeks away from S/Lt, but oh well, they probably wouldn't have let me keep it anyway!)

I'd imagine this is so because upon the completion of Basic in the Reg Force, obviously you are commissioned.  And since basic and PFT are requirements for the Seneca program, you're a 2Lt throughout your training. I think you're given back pay to the date you were eligible for Lt, but the next promotion you see is Captain once you've got your wings. **Not sure on this...**

Regardless, unless they decide to start withholding commissions until completion of additional training like Reserve MARS, you won't stay an OCdt like a lot of CEOTP program entrants. Which is nice!

Thanks!


----------



## MikeD

Thanks a lot for the information. Do you have to be in uniform for school? Also, are you staying at the Newham campus for the duration of your education? I know that the aviation program is moving to Seneca's new Peterborough campus next year but since this is a special program I wasn't sure if students of this program had to move as well?


----------



## aviatrixx

MikeD,

You are indeed in your 3's for class, except on Fridays when flight suits are permitted. 

We will stay in Newnham for classes, as far as I can tell. The move to Peterborough only affects the civvie students in second year and beyond as they commence their flying at that time. We don't do any flying with the school, so we stay at the main campus.

Hope this helps!


----------



## MdB

Actually, all CFRCs have received the documentation on AEAD. Those who answer that they don't know is because they did not prepare adequately.

It's good to hear from someone who is actually in the program. There is few positions and CAF did have a hard time to fill them because of the selection process.

The program is very streamlined and offers noticeable advantages over ROTP, but if you fail, you cannot change to any other CEOTP because none are available, but for Nursing Officer, all others are currently closed. The program offers no leeway whatsoever because all courses are prerequisites for the next ones. The remaining option when you fall off the imposed academic calendar is to go NCM trade.


----------



## s2184

Hi Aviatrixx, I am in Seneca; doing commercial pilot program. What is included in your curriculum? How many and what courses you have to finish in Seneca? Thank you!


----------



## aviatrixx

Hi, the courses mentioned in the post are what we are required to take for this semester. Next semester is the roughly the same though this hasn't been confirmed.  When we get back from Moose Jaw after our first two semesters, we're here for another year and a bit but I can't confirm what we will be taking nor how many credits we will be required to complete. Sorry, that info just ins't available; to me anyway!


----------



## s2184

Thank you for your information. Today I saw around 7/8 students (with their uniform) in Markham campus. The courses you are taking are part of the Aviation Technology full-time program (is moved to Peterborough). http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/FPR.html


----------



## aviatrixx

Thanks S2184,

Well I'm aware of the program than I'm in but thanks for the link!   However, we're not following that outline exactly nor are we in Peterborough for any portion of our training. We don't take electives, so for semester 2 we are taking:

Mechanics 200
Math 200
Physics 200
Material Sciences 300
Electronics 200

If you see us again, come say hi!


----------



## DAA

News Article - RCAF and Seneca College accelerate military pilot training

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/article-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-and-seneca-college-accelerate-military-pilot-training/hrhjdzop


----------



## hootbag

Are they really required to wear uniforms on campus!?


----------



## maverick230

Do you know if living on Campus is required?  Currently posted to Hamilton.
Thanks!


----------



## The_Green_Basterd

Thanks for posting on this subject.  I helped recruit a couple awesome people for that program but ended my time at CFRC before ever finding out if the program was a success!  Thanks!


----------



## RobOfstie

Hootbag-

Yes we are required to wear our uniforms Monday-Friday.  We are mixed in with the civilian candidates who are required by the college to wear a professional standardized uniform. As such we are required to wear them as well.  It's really not as bad as you think.  You eventually get used to wearing/maintaining 3's Mon-Thurs and it really becomes a non-issue.  

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## little_mp

I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I have been looking around and haven't been able to see the answers I am looking for. 

I was a MCPL in an infantry reserve unit. I have been in for just over 10 years and a couple of years ago I was asked by my unit if I would consider taking my commission. Long story short I went through the whole process and last week I became an OCDT. I was told when I started the process that I would be a 2LT and have to complete DP1.1 It has been confirmed the next course I need to be promoted is DP1.1 and I was written off BMOQ or CAP, what ever it is called these days so I'm just wondering if anyone can shed some light into why I am a OCDT and not a 2LT? Apparently my unit is looking into what it will take now to promote me but no one seems to really be sure why.

Thanks


----------



## brihard

I_A_N said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I have been looking around and haven't been able to see the answers I am looking for.
> 
> I was a MCPL in an infantry reserve unit. I have been in for just over 10 years and a couple of years ago I was asked by my unit if I would consider taking my commission. Long story short I went through the whole process and last week I became an OCDT. I was told when I started the process that I would be a 2LT and have to complete DP1.1 It has been confirmed the next course I need to be promoted is DP1.1 and I was written off BMOQ or CAP, what ever it is called these days so I'm just wondering if anyone can shed some light into why I am a OCDT and not a 2LT? Apparently my unit is looking into what it will take now to promote me but no one seems to really be sure why.
> 
> Thanks



PM inbound


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I_A_N said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I have been looking around and haven't been able to see the answers I am looking for.
> 
> I was a MCPL in an infantry reserve unit. I have been in for just over 10 years and a couple of years ago I was asked by my unit if I would consider taking my commission. Long story short I went through the whole process and last week I became an OCDT. I was told when I started the process that I would be a 2LT and have to complete DP1.1 It has been confirmed the next course I need to be promoted is DP1.1 and I was written off BMOQ or CAP, what ever it is called these days so I'm just wondering if anyone can shed some light into why I am a OCDT and not a 2LT? Apparently my unit is looking into what it will take now to promote me but no one seems to really be sure why.
> 
> Thanks



From DAOD 5002-6



> Rank
> 
> A selected applicant must be enrolled, appointed or component transferred as an officer cadet/naval cadet effective the date of enrolment, rank change or component transfer.
> 
> The rank of officer cadet/naval cadet is held until the date that BMOQ or an equivalency is granted, upon which promotion to second lieutenant/acting sub-lieutenant occurs. No promotion to commissioned rank must be back-dated prior to the date the CEOTP officer is granted the BMOQ or an equivalency.
> 
> Promotions to a higher rank may occur on enrolment, promotion, occupation transfer or component transfer under CF promotion policy.


----------



## Crispy Bacon

I_A_N said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I have been looking around and haven't been able to see the answers I am looking for.
> 
> I was a MCPL in an infantry reserve unit. I have been in for just over 10 years and a couple of years ago I was asked by my unit if I would consider taking my commission. Long story short I went through the whole process and last week I became an OCDT. I was told when I started the process that I would be a 2LT and have to complete DP1.1 It has been confirmed the next course I need to be promoted is DP1.1 and I was written off BMOQ or CAP, what ever it is called these days so I'm just wondering if anyone can shed some light into why I am a OCDT and not a 2LT? Apparently my unit is looking into what it will take now to promote me but no one seems to really be sure why.
> 
> Thanks



From Land Force Command Order (LFCO) 3-1-002:

(read in three columns): *Entry plan - Requirements - Rank on Enrolment*
RESO - Must *be attending * or registered in full-time post secondary - OCdt
DEO - Must *possess* a recongized degree from a college or university - 2Lt
OCTP - includes those applicants with no former service, soldiers who do not qualify for CFR, and former cadets - OCdt
CFR - Must have eight years of service, be qualified for Sgt or above, and have at least two years before CRA - Lt, A/Capt or Capt (depending on quals)

Which commissioning plan were you under?  If you already have your degree, it seems like you would have been under DEO, in which case you'd commission as an OCdt with an instant promotion to 2Lt. If you're working on completing your degree, you'd fall under RESO, in which case you'd be an OCdt.


----------



## Sgt_McWatt

No one is commissioned as an OCdt, they don't hold commissions.


----------



## Kirtaries

Hey everyone, 

I have a few questions regarding a CT from army reserve to the CEOTP partnership with Seneca.
Current Quals (BMQ,BMQ-L,404's,DP1,DP2,PLQ complete)

Status: Currently being Processed Awaiting Air Factor Medical

Questions: 1) What if any courses would I bypass changing from Army Res NCM to AF Reg Pilot. AKA does PLQ write off any of the officer courses?
                 2) Who am I competing against for a position, Just current military pers that are doing a CT or am I thrown in a pool of all applications?     
                 3) Do CEOTP pers do all there french training through Seneca? As I noticed in the first semester you have to take French. 
                 4) If all french training is done by Seneca then would anyone be able to hazard a guess as to what courses I would need to get before heading to my first semester of Seneca?  ( If I get selected at all  ;D) 

Thanks in advance for any/all of your input.

Cheers,


----------



## Ostrozac

For the longest time SLC/ILQ/ILP was required in order to bypass BMOQ, but lately PLQ graduates have been applying for and receiving (through the PLAR process) complete BMOQ bypasses. That's the situation I was in when I commissioned under CEOTP about five years ago -- PLQ qualified and I didn't go to CFLRS St Jean at all, not even for the short Officership Seminar.

In addition, your quals should allow you to be qualified BMOQ(Land)/CAP -- but as I understand it that's not required for Pilots, not even those assigned to Tac Hel squadrons.


----------



## Loachman

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> In addition, your quals should allow you to be qualified BMOQ(Land)/CAP -- but as I understand it that's not required for Pilots, not even those assigned to Tac Hel squadrons.



Well, if I ever get _*my*_ way...

I am not certain, but I do not believe that CEOTP applications for Pilot are being accepted - or is Seneca a different situation? I do not monitor that.


----------



## The_Falcon

Loachman said:
			
		

> Well, if I ever get _*my*_ way...
> 
> I am not certain, but I do not believe that CEOTP applications for Pilot are being accepted - or is Seneca a different situation? I do not monitor that.



There is an agreement between Seneca and the CAF for CEOTP entry. 

http://forces.ca/en/job/pilot-32#ceotp


----------



## Loachman

Ack. Thanks.


----------



## Kirtaries

Thanks for the input Ostrozac, 

Lets hope I get to bypass CFLRS St Jean as well :. If not I'm sure it could be a little fun... :facepalm:


----------



## Fieseler

Hey guys what date does this program start for 2015? As in when do you start basic? I applied for CEOTP 2014 but during my medical was informed that I need laser eye surgery and to come back in 6 months. So now I'm looking at CEOTP 2015. I passed my Interview, Seneca's aptitude test and CFAT just waiting on my vision for my medical to continue. Also, do you know of anyone that has transferred from the civilian program at Seneca? I have been accepted for 2014 and I was considering starting the program while going through the my application in case the military doesn't work out. But if it isn't possible to transfer courses I don't want to waste my money yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## DAA

Fieseler said:
			
		

> Hey guys what date does this program start for 2015? As in when do you start basic? I applied for CEOTP 2014 but during my medical was informed that I need laser eye surgery and to come back in 6 months. So now I'm looking at CEOTP 2015. I passed my Interview, Seneca's aptitude test and CFAT just waiting on my vision for my medical to continue. Also, do you know of anyone that has transferred from the civilian program at Seneca? I have been accepted for 2014 and I was considering starting the program while going through the my application in case the military doesn't work out. But if it isn't possible to transfer courses I don't want to waste my money yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated!



Generally, CEOTP applicants will do their BMOQ in the Fall and then start school in Jan of the following year.

I'm not sure if the CF will accept current Seneca students via CEOTP, as the program is structured to meet military training requirements.  You would be better off to ask this specific question directly to your local CFRC.


----------



## Fieseler

Thank you. 
Yes I will be keeping contact with my recruitng center. When I was there I couldn't find anybody that knew if I could transfer. I'll keep looking!


----------



## s2184

Fieseler said:
			
		

> Hey guys what date does this program start for 2015? As in when do you start basic? I applied for CEOTP 2014 but during my medical was informed that I need laser eye surgery and to come back in 6 months. So now I'm looking at CEOTP 2015. I passed my Interview, Seneca's aptitude test and CFAT just waiting on my vision for my medical to continue. Also, do you know of anyone that has transferred from the civilian program at Seneca? I have been accepted for 2014 and I was considering starting the program while going through the my application in case the military doesn't work out. But if it isn't possible to transfer courses I don't want to waste my money yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated!



Which program have you been accepted? Seneca Aviation Technology? 
Why do you think it is a waste of money if you don't get into military?  :


----------



## RobOfstie

Kirtaries,

As long as you have PLQ you will receive a CFLRS bypass, and should be promoted directly to Lieutenant.  I was an army reservist that CT'd into the Seneca Program.  I didn't have PLQ though, so I had to do MOD 2 BMOQ.  If you have any specific questions about the process specifically or about Seneca just fire me a MSG.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## DAA

RobOfstie said:
			
		

> Kirtaries,
> 
> As long as you have PLQ you will receive a CFLRS bypass, and should be promoted directly to Lieutenant.



You mean commissioned to the rank of "2Lt" on transfer with your BMOQ qual, didn't you?    

And out of curiousity, just what pay level and incentive did they assign you?  Level B, Basic?


----------



## RobOfstie

DAA

AFAIK if you're a MCpl or above (with PLQ obviously) you skip BMOQ entirely and transfer directly to Lieutenant.  I've seen several of these along the way in my training.  I was a Bombardier without PLQ, so I had to do MOD 2 BMOQ and was promoted to 2Lt upon completion of BMOQ.  Because of the CANFORGEN on pay protection, I kept Corporal Pay.  

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## Ostrozac

RobOfstie said:
			
		

> DAA
> 
> AFAIK if you're a MCpl or above (with PLQ obviously) you skip BMOQ entirely and transfer directly to Lieutenant.  I've seen several of these along the way in my training.  I was a Bombardier without PLQ, so I had to do MOD 2 BMOQ and was promoted to 2Lt upon completion of BMOQ.  Because of the CANFORGEN on pay protection, I kept Corporal Pay.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Rob



Under DEO, you would be correct, but CEOTP is different. In order to be a Lt or Capt under CEOTP you need to be MOSID qualified. I know a Reg Force Sgt that commissioned under CEOTP -- he went to 2Lt.


----------



## Fieseler

s2184 said:
			
		

> Which program have you been accepted? Seneca Aviation Technology?
> Why do you think it is a waste of money if you don't get into military?  :



I've been accepted for Seneca's Bachelor of Aviation Technology Program. I am planning on attending if I don't get accepted into the CEOTP program. I haven't been rejected or accepted into the military yet. I'm trying to decide if I should enter Seneca's aviation program while waiting for my application to be processed or wait until the military accepts or rejects my application. It's an expensive program around 11,000 dollars plus books, living and food for year 1. I don't think it would be a complete waste of money but I would need a loan  :-\


----------



## RobOfstie

Ahhh Yes you are correct Ostrozac,  

I knew that too...... whoops! 

Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers,

Rob


----------



## Nathanael.M

Fieseler said:
			
		

> I've been accepted for Seneca's Bachelor of Aviation Technology Program. I am planning on attending if I don't get accepted into the CEOTP program. I haven't been rejected or accepted into the military yet. I'm trying to decide if I should enter Seneca's aviation program while waiting for my application to be processed or wait until the military accepts or rejects my application. It's an expensive program around 11,000 dollars plus books, living and food for year 1. I don't think it would be a complete waste of money but I would need a loan  :-\



This would definitely be a question you'd want to put to your local recruiting office. In terms of when BMOQ starts, I've been accepted to the CEOTP program and was told that for this year basic will start August 23rd (St Jean QC). Since the program is so new I couldn't guess if the next year would be the same, but since standardization is a big part of the forces, I would imagine it wouldn't change drastically.


----------



## s2184

Fieseler said:
			
		

> I've been accepted for Seneca's Bachelor of Aviation Technology Program. I am planning on attending if I don't get accepted into the CEOTP program. I haven't been rejected or accepted into the military yet. I'm trying to decide if I should enter Seneca's aviation program while waiting for my application to be processed or wait until the military accepts or rejects my application. It's an expensive program around 11,000 dollars plus books, living and food for year 1. I don't think it would be a complete waste of money but I would need a loan  :-\



Are you really interested in becoming a pilot? Do you really enjoy flying? Have you been flying already? If your answers to the questions are "Yes", then regardless of your situation or whatever will happen, it is worth a lot going to Seneca Aviation Technology Program. 

Why you don't work in the summer & save money? $11,000/per year for the first year is not a lot of money if you work and save money. I believe you can get gov.student loan as much as $10,000/year.

If I were you, I would join in Seneca, will complete the Program & will join in the military or will consider joining in the military after.

The Seneca Aviation Technology Program is very stressful & challenging. But, if you plan well & if you play your part correctly, you have a bright future waiting ahead of you.  :nod:


----------



## Fieseler

s2184 said:
			
		

> Are you really interested in becoming a pilot? Do you really enjoy flying? Have you been flying already? If your answers to the questions are "Yes", then regardless of your situation or whatever will happen, it is worth a lot going to Seneca Aviation Technology Program.
> 
> Why you don't work in the summer & save money? $11,000/per year for the first year is not a lot of money if you work and save money. I believe you can get gov.student loan as much as $10,000/year.
> 
> If I were you, I would join in Seneca, will complete the Program & will join in the military or will consider joining in the military after.
> 
> The Seneca Aviation Technology Program is very stressful & challenging. But, if you plan well & if you play your part correctly, you have a bright future waiting ahead of you.  :nod:



Yes to all your questions  

 Nathanael.M congrats on making the program! Thanks, I have made my decision to join Seneca in the fall and I hope to see some of you there!


----------



## s2184

Fieseler said:
			
		

> Yes to all your questions
> 
> Nathanael.M congrats on making the program! Thanks, I have made my decision to join Seneca in the fall and I hope to see some of you there!



Good wishes Fieseler! You never know. May be I will fly with you one day.  ;D


----------



## Kirtaries

So I passed the Seneca admissions test a few weeks ago. For anyone going to write it, do the FPR practice tests on the Seneca website. They are basically the same questions just different numbers. 

I did my Aircrew Medical and everything was great until they put the little sticky ECG things all over me to test my Ticker... got referred to a cardiologist which may take six months :-\ 
Does this happen often? Really stressed out now cause I'm extremely Fit and do a lot of sports so I can't see anything being wrong with my heart!

It seems that there is a drawback around every corner with the pilot application process!!


----------



## PMedMoe

Kirtaries said:
			
		

> Really stressed out now cause I'm extremely Fit and do a lot of sports so I can't see anything being wrong with my heart!



People can be "extremely fit" and do sports and still have a heart problem.

Or, at the very least, have a non-serious heart problem that is not compatible with the medical requirements for pilot.


----------



## Griffon

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> People can be "extremely fit" and do sports and still have a heart problem.
> 
> Or, at the very least, have a non-serious heart problem that is not compatible with the medical requirements for pilot.



Or, a non-serious heart "problem" that _is_ compatible with those requirements.  You'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## JulesP

Good Evening,
I have applied and passed all assessments up to and including ASC for CEOTP Pilot (Seneca Program). At this point I cannot be merit listed until my final transcripts can be sent in, which for Alberta is 21 July. Outside of my application for the CF I have applied and been accepted to SAIT for Avionics Technician, however if I choose to accept this I must pay my first semester's tuition by 5 August. Knowing that the recruiting system is busy and not going to move quickly for one individual, might anyone have any advice for my situation? I do not want to eliminate SAIT as my backup plan as I believe it's poor to be dependent on solely one option.


----------



## DAA

JulesP said:
			
		

> Good Evening,
> I have applied and passed all assessments up to and including ASC for CEOTP Pilot (Seneca Program). At this point I cannot be merit listed until my final transcripts can be sent in, which for Alberta is 21 July. Outside of my application for the CF I have applied and been accepted to SAIT for Avionics Technician, however if I choose to accept this I must pay my first semester's tuition by 5 August. Knowing that the recruiting system is busy and not going to move quickly for one individual, might anyone have any advice for my situation? I do not want to eliminate SAIT as my backup plan as I believe it's poor to be dependent on solely one option.



There really should be no need to wait for your final transcripts inorder to be Merit Listed for CEOTP Plt.  If you were to be selected, the offer would naturally be "conditional" upon you graduating with satisfactory results.  You just have to wait until the selection board is held or ask your CFRC whether or not they have already Merit Listed you.

I am sure you will find others here at Army.ca, that are still in Gr 12, who have already been offered and accepted CEOTP Pilot posns for the coming year.


----------



## The_Falcon

Merged several thread regarding the "pre" application/acceptance stage of this particular program (either off the street or CT/OT).  Threads regarding the "post" period, haven't been touched as they don't concern recruiting.


----------



## JulesP

DAA said:
			
		

> There really should be no need to wait for your final transcripts inorder to be Merit Listed for CEOTP Plt.  If you were to be selected, the offer would naturally be "conditional" upon you graduating with satisfactory results.  You just have to wait until the selection board is held or ask your CFRC whether or not they have already Merit Listed you.
> 
> I am sure you will find others here at Army.ca, that are still in Gr 12, who have already been offered and accepted CEOTP Pilot posns for the coming year.



Okay, because I had been conditionally accepted after my interview based on I pass ASC, the medical, and my final transcripts. I had passed the first two and my recruiter said in order to be merit listed; they require my final diploma and transcript.


----------



## Kirtaries

DAA is right, Lots of ROTP applicants get Merit Listed and get conditonal offers depending on them passing Gr 12.
I can't see how this would be any different for CEOTP. 

I would call your recruiter. Just my  :2c:


----------



## MaximusThrust

Know anyone that joined the program from civi side? When did they sign up? Were they waiting in limbo for the academic year to start?


Cheers,

Max


----------



## redorange363

JulesP said:
			
		

> Okay, because I had been conditionally accepted after my interview based on I pass ASC, the medical, and my final transcripts. I had passed the first two and my recruiter said in order to be merit listed; they require my final diploma and transcript.



I just finished grade 12 and I have been accepted into the CEOTP-Seneca Pilot program for this coming year.  I had to provide the admission test results from Seneca to be Merit Listed.


----------



## aviatrixx

Sorry, I'm late to reply to some of these questions. There was one member who joined from the program, but he already had a degree from another school so his situation was different. He just quit Seneca and joined DEO. Last I heard there was one civvie fellow that was in the process of switching over from first year and was at the interview/medical stage of his military application. I believe the school was going to give him credit for his first year. And that is the only instance the school will grant credit. When I checked in last time, the school and CF had no official policy on people transferring from the civvie Seneca program, so it would be best in my opinion to contact the Program Chair (on the Seneca website) directly and through her, the Seneca Liaison Officer. Hope this helps.


----------



## mmbarrett

Hey, This is my first time here and have a question for anyone who definitely knows; when is the start date for the CEOTP students applying now assuming all goes well (medical, aircrew, admissions, etc)?  A lot of formal documentation states semester 1 is a Sept start date, however someone here had a start date for BMOQ in Aug 2014 and starting semester 1 in Jan.  Applying that to me, I wouldn't start in Seneca until Jan 2016, correct?  If that wasn't the case and semester 1 is a Sept start date, then BMOQ would be starting May-'ish' right?  Thanks.  

 ps For all you young guys doing this; count your blessings.  Stressing out about selling a home, moving a family, finding off-campus living, planning the next pregnancy/due date and re-learning math from over a decade ago is a bag of trash!


----------



## DAA

mmbarrett said:
			
		

> Hey, This is my first time here and have a question for anyone who definitely knows; when is the start date for the CEOTP students applying now assuming all goes well (medical, aircrew, admissions, etc)?  A lot of formal documentation states semester 1 is a Sept start date, however someone here had a start date for BMOQ in Aug 2014 and starting semester 1 in Jan.  Applying that to me, I wouldn't start in Seneca until Jan 2016, correct?  If that wasn't the case and semester 1 is a Sept start date, then BMOQ would be starting May-'ish' right?  Thanks.
> 
> ps For all you young guys doing this; count your blessings.  Stressing out about selling a home, moving a family, finding off-campus living, planning the next pregnancy/due date and re-learning math from over a decade ago is a bag of trash!



I do believe that the actual College start date will always be Sep.  Your enrolment date will be the main trigger for everything.  Optimum, is enrol in the later part of the year or early in the year for BMOQ attendance (ie; Sep or Jan).  Followed by PFT Ph 1 in the spring or summer, then onto Semester 1 at Seneca in Sep.  I don't think you will ever go straight to Seneca without having already attending either BMOQ PFT Ph 1.


----------



## Jschof

This is my first post, so I'd like to start out by saying hello to you all and I look forward to being a part of these forums, they are always very insightful and it's nice to have a place to seek information from actual members.
I am currently a high school student at the end of Grade 12 in processing, currently done everything except for the in- depth medical, to become a pilot in the CAF. The program I was interested in at the moment is the CEOTP program in which the forces offer through Seneca College, but I have heard pretty mixed reviews on it as I did my research on the internet. I know the program is different than when first implemented, the most recent news I have heard from it is that Seneca no longer requires an entrance exam for entering the program. 
I was just wondering if anyone here has any experience with the CEOTP program, or even if anyone thinks I have any better options. I'd just overall like to hear some experiences everyone had becoming a pilot, any tips for an aspiring pilot, or any warnings for me. 
I preemptively apologize if there is a more recent forum on this, like I had mentioned before I am still trying to find my way around here and most of the information I was able to find is fairly outdated. 
Any thoughts?


----------



## DAA

Jschof said:
			
		

> I am currently a high school student at the end of Grade 12 in processing, currently done everything except for the in- depth medical, to become a pilot in the CAF. The program I was interested in at the moment is the CEOTP program in which the forces offer through Seneca College, but I have heard pretty mixed reviews on it as I did my research on the internet. I know the program is different than when first implemented, the most recent news I have heard from it is that Seneca no longer requires an entrance exam for entering the program.
> I was just wondering if anyone here has any experience with the CEOTP program, or even if anyone thinks I have any better options.



Your right, there is no longer a requirement to write the Seneca Entry Exam.  The screening requirements have changed and are now based on the submission of your high school academic transcripts.

What I can reasonably say, the CEOTP Program is academically demanding, interspersed with military training, so it is go go go.

The significant difference between CEOTP and ROTP Pilot applicants.......

CEOTP - $42,800+ per year, flying CF Aircraft in 4-5 years

ROTP  -  $18,800+ per year, flying CF Aircraft in 5-7 years

Hopefully, one of the current CEOTP Officers here chimes in.


----------



## mariomike

Jschof said:
			
		

> I was just wondering if anyone here has any experience with the CEOTP program, or even if anyone thinks I have any better options.



CEOTP
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+CEOTP&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&gfe_rd=cr&ei=zu3nVJTOE-iy8wf04YCYDg&gws_rd=ssl



			
				Jschof said:
			
		

> I'd just overall like to hear some experiences everyone had becoming a pilot, any tips for an aspiring pilot, or any warnings for me.



The "So You Want To Be A Pilot" Merged Thread  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/12744.0


----------



## Jschof

Ah, I had no idea the pay would be that much different DAA. That is the one tough part I figured would be the most demanding of the CEOTP, just the rapid speed you would be moving at. But let's face it, if you're planning on going into be a pilot, being a fast learner is a pretty important prerequisite to have hey?  :nod: 
As to mariomike, I have read the "So you want to be a pilot", as well as the "So you want to be a fighter pilot?" posts religiously several times, definitely some of the most helpful forums I've found on here, however just like a lot of the help I have been able to find, they're slightly outdated for the most part. Obviously I understand that lot's hasn't changed, but there has been a bit that has too I would imagine. Just trying to get the most up to date information and testimonials that I can find. I've been able to read up a bit on the CEOTP, but I've been hard up to find actual stories from guys that have done it, or even a daily sort of schedule for someone in the program.
Even on the CAF website they are pretty vague in describing the whole process and my recruiting officer wasn't 100% either about the particulars.
Once again I apologize if I'm misinformed with any of my information or searching skills, not intending to waste anyone's time. 
Thanks again!


----------



## ethan.taylor

Hello, not sure if this is the right spot to ask but here goes.  I’m currently in my final semester of Grade 12 and interested in being a Pilot in the CF and would like to try applying for the paid education Seneca College program.  I have asked around about how to do this but I was told that I have to wait until I graduated from High School before I could be considered.  I’m just wondering if this is true or should I apply now?


----------



## rjfreeman

ethan.taylor

Thank you for your interest in the Canadian Armed Forces.

No that is not true. The CEOTP program is specifically targeted for students in their final semester/term of high school. If you are interested in the CEOTP program it is suggested that you apply online as soon as possible.

If you have any other question feel free to ask!


----------



## InBound

I applied to the CEOTP-Pilot program April 30, 2015 (6 days ago) and am extremely excited because this is my dream job. Today I made a move and met with a recruiter at the Hamilton RC in Ontario (my local RC). I had an interview with a captain, and told him that I have a 2-year college diploma with over 250 hours of volunteer experience and am physically fit and wanting a career for the long term not just . Will this help with my application process and further my chances of being accepted into this program? He never really answered me he just said having post secondary education is a good thing?? What are my chances of getting in to this program? Is it a difficult program to be accepted in to? Again this is my dream and any advice/ help???


----------



## DAA

InBound said:
			
		

> I applied to the CEOTP-Pilot program April 30, 2015 (6 days ago) and am extremely excited because this is my dream job. Today I made a move and met with a recruiter at the Hamilton RC in Ontario (my local RC). I had an interview with a captain, and told him that I have a 2-year college diploma with over 250 hours of volunteer experience and am physically fit and wanting a career for the long term not just . Will this help with my application process and further my chances of being accepted into this program? He never really answered me he just said having post secondary education is a good thing?? What are my chances of getting in to this program? Is it a difficult program to be accepted in to? Again this is my dream and any advice/ help???



You will be subject to the same processing as any other Pilot applicant (CFAT, Medical, Interview, Aircrew Selection, etc, etc).  You will also be subject to the "Admission Requirements" for the program at Seneca College.  However, your course pattern is modified to meet military training requirements and should you be successful and receive an offer of employment, will usually consist of BMOQ, Phase 1 Pilot Trg, Seneca Semester 1 and 2, Phase 2 and 3 Pilot Training, Seneca Semesters 3, 4 and 5 followed by a posting to an OTU (Operational Training Unit).  Somewhere in there, you will also have to complete the CAFJOD and AFOD training/courses.

Good luck on the long journey ahead of you!

Oh and to answer your question of "What are my chances of getting into this program?"   For starters, you had better VERY VERY well on your CFAT!!! 

Seneca Entry Requirements  ---->  http://www.senecacollege.ca/fulltime/FPR.html


----------



## InBound

About to enroll in the CEOTP program through Seneca as well. Applied to CF a week ago and am awaiting "first contact", went to my recruiter and he gave me the Seneca application form and I'm taking that and my transcripts this week. I have a 2 year college diploma and over 250 hours volunteer work, good rapport with the RC contact so I'm really hopeful I can go through to this program. Any one else in the CEOTP or with any advice/ knowledge feel free to share. Would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## curious22

I think one on the "watch outs for the Seneca route is that you have to pass or your out. With ROTP if you fail in one of the phases BMOQ, Phase II or Phase III you can recourse into another trade and still be a CF officer. With the CEOTP your gone if you fail and that could be costly.

It is a good program and does pay better but there can be no mistakes or changing of your mind. Keep in mind that phase II is tough and hard.


----------



## Matthew7

Im trying to apply online for the CEOTP pilot and on the website it says "If you would like to apply to the combined degree and pilot training program, select “CEOTP – Pilot” when filling out the online application." but I cant find anywhere on the application where I can select that. Does anyone know what i'm supposed to do?


----------



## Warrant Officer Robert

When completing the online application, please select the "CEOTP" option under the heading of "Entry Plan".


----------



## jeffreycao1998

Hey I was just wondering if applying online is the only way to apply for the paid education at Seneca to become a pilot. When I tried to apply online, I got stuck at a part where it asked for the high school I have already graduated/degree I've obtained. However, being the 12th grade I have not finished high school. I made sure to select CEOTP when it asked for an entry plan.


----------



## jeffreycao1998

to be more specific, I get stuck at the part where it tells me to add an education program


----------



## Warrant Officer Robert

Select the "highest level" of education completed or currently being completed (ie; High School - Complete).   These details can be mentioned to your local Recruiting Detachment and updated appropriately when you are scheduled for your initial testing.


----------



## Davy

Hi!

I recently applied for the Seneca College pilot program. I passed my CFAT about two weeks ago.
I browsed the forums and could not find an answear to my question. Since the next admission in 
Seneca is scheduled for Fall 2017, I almost have an entire year to spend. Are there some courses
that I can take right now at my local university (maths,etc.) and have them credited for later on?

Thanks!

Davy


----------



## Warrant Officer Robert

The CEOTP-AEAD Pilot Entry Plan is very unique in nature.  Your courses conducted at Seneca College are scheduled and managed by the CAF and consist of successful CAF applicants only.

Successful CEOTP-AEAD applicants upon enrolment, will attend BMOQ in St Jean followed by Phase 1 Pilot Training just prior to attending Seneca College.


----------



## JackMerridrew

Can someone confirm something for me? If I'm chosen for CEOTP - Pilot, will I be a 2Lt making 2Lt pay once I graduate from BMOQ?

 I was under the impression I stayed as an Officer Cadet throughout training. Thanks!


----------



## bradley247

Yes, you will be a 2Lt, and make 2Lt pay.


----------



## DAA

JackMerridrew said:
			
		

> Can someone confirm something for me? If I'm chosen for CEOTP - Pilot, will I be a 2Lt making 2Lt pay once I graduate from BMOQ?
> I was under the impression I stayed as an Officer Cadet throughout training. Thanks!





			
				bradley247 said:
			
		

> Yes, you will be a 2Lt, and make 2Lt pay.



You are enrolled into the CF as an OCdt and upon successful completion of BMOQ, you will be promoted to 2Lt (Pay Level B) retroactive to your date of enrolment.


----------



## JackMerridrew

Thanks again for the responses!


----------



## Keepsprayin

I passed ACS in Trenton during early March, I was wondering if the May 23rd BMOQ serial is full for my program and if it is, when would selection begin for the next one?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Keepsprayin

Just a correction, CEOTP Pilot is the program. Accidentally made a typo.


----------



## da1root

Good Day,

BMOQ's are not filled by program - the courses are filled with many different occupations and entry plans.  
Please discuss your application to Seneca College in conjunction with your BMOQ dates with your File Manager.

Best Regards,
Sgt Laen


----------



## stokely

Hey Everyone, 

I am looking for someone who has gone thru the CEOTP program successfully that I can e-mail and use as a mentor.

My brief history: 
I never finished high school or did well in high school, and I have been out for 8 years. Nevertheless I have very high determination to finish my upgrades and be accepted to CEOTP. When I am successful I will be the first person in my family on both sides to finish high school and have a post secondary education. That being said, it is going to be extremely difficult for me and I believe a mentor will be able to help me immensely.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## JDW

Good evening,

I have recently been merit listed and I hope that I am sufficiently competitive to be given an offer soon. 

Would a recruiter be so kind as to let me know if some seats remain for CEOTP pilots for 2016-2017?

Many thanks.


----------



## Deadpoetic6

JDW said:
			
		

> Good evening,
> 
> I have recently been merit listed and I hope that I am sufficiently competitive to be given an offer soon.
> 
> Would a recruiter be so kind as to let me know if some seats remain for CEOTP pilots for 2016-2017?
> 
> Many thanks.




My recruiter told me that its complete until april 2017


----------



## DAA

Deadpoetic6 said:
			
		

> My recruiter told me that its complete until april 2017



I highly doubt that to be true, as CEOTP Pilot positions have always been difficult to fill at best.  It's the CAF's best kept secret and one that requires an "enormous" amount of commitment and future dedication from potential applicants.

CEOTP Pilot selections are usually done on a weekly basis, so once your processing is completed and you actually hit the Merit List, it's only a matter of time before you get "the" call.

A very challenging training and academicly intensive program to say the least.


----------



## da1root

Good Day,

The information available to me at this moment in time is that Attraction and Processing are still open for CEOTP Pilot.  I'm also looking at the current seats that were determined for 2016/2017 and comparing it to how many offers have gone out and there are definitely positions still remaining in this recruiting cycle.

Best Regards,
Sgt Laen


----------



## AliTheAce

What is the application cutoff date for CEOTP? I couldn't find it anywhere online.

I'm in grade 11 this year, but when should I be looking to apply next year?


----------



## da1root

There is no CEOTP cut off date, applications are accepted year round.  However keep in mind that the earlier you apply the more positions (and opportunities for selection) remain open.


----------



## Point Boy

I have just recently been accepted for the CEOTP Pilot program and still have a couple questions I haven`t been able to find in this or any other thread, if anyone on here has any information on these topics it would be much appreciated. 

The two main things I am still wondering is if, when I am at Seneca College completing the degree portion, will all CEOTP candidates be supplied a dorm room like at residence or am I responsible to find my own housing? And second I was wondering if anyone had a general idea of how long it usually takes between the ending of BMOQ and when Primary Flight Training begins.

Thanks


----------



## JDW

Hey Point Boy.

I am currently at Seneca.You can stay at Seneca Residence (It's recommended you do so) or elect to find your own place, which I did. I am sharing a basement apartment with another CEOTP student. We're a 10 minute walk from Seneca.

In our case, we graduated from BMOQ in February and started PFT in April. Hope this helps!


----------



## Point Boy

Thanks JDW, exactly what I was looking for!


----------



## AliTheAce

During CEOTP Pilot at Seneca, does the military give you an allowance if you want to stay on residence? Is it enough to comfortably pay for housing and food? I've scoured the internet for information, but haven't gotten any relevant information.


----------



## JDW

Hi AliTheAce,

Yes, from personal experience, the salary allocated to a 2LT  is adequate to pay for Seneca tuition, residence (or an affordable place off residence) and food.


----------



## da1root

Tuition is paid for by DND/CAF, tuition does not come out of your salary - otherwise above is good info


----------



## AliTheAce

For some reason I forgot to reply back to this thread after your responses, but...

Thanks for your help!

Now, on a side-note, when applying for the RCAF, can I apply for both RMC - ROTP Pilot and CEOTP - Pilot? Or do I have to pick just one?

if you had the choice, which one would you pick? This is the biggest dilemma of my life. I'm in cadets and I just LOVE the military atmosphere and the sense of family you have, plus how disciplined it makes you. I'm really gonna miss that in Seneca when I'm not gone flight training. But, on the other hand, I would love to become a pilot earlier (8 years total for RMC vs 4 years total for CEOTP) which would give me a longer and potentially more fruitful career. I also want to compete in cycling, which RMC seems to have had a team in the past for. I would love to study Aerospace Engineering at RMC since anything related to aviation is my passion, and I really enjoy physics in all forms.

Also, which one would give me a better chance of getting into? RMC most likely sees more applicants than Seneca due to it's appeal, so I'm assuming CEOTP would be less competitive and therefore easier to get into? Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

My current marks range from 76% in Advanced Functions (Hopefully I can bring them back up) to 89% in Physics and French. I should also be getting my Glider Pilot Scholarship this summer hopefully. Although I'm kind of forced to take a year off after high school because I need to wait for my citizenship to come in. I'll be working throughout the year, and also will be focusing on cycling.


----------



## da1root

I've just spoken with a Pilot who sits across from me: here's the coles notes.

Both entry plans end with the person having a University Degree.  RMC will give a "hard" engineering degree which is the appeal to some applicants.  Seneca (CEOTP) doesn't give the "hard" engineering degree, however with CEOTP you are getting your flying qualifications while attending school - this means that in your final year of school you're a fully qualified "pilot" and only need to pass your final year of school.  With RMC you do not get your flying qualifications while attending school, at the completion of the degree you will need to attend the appropriate courses to become a military pilot.

---- Keep in mind the above is the coles notes of what I was told, I am not a pilot, I do not have an engineering degree, and my specialty of knowledge is Health Services; as such if there are others who feel differently or have added information please feel free to add your comments.

As for applying to ROTP and CEOTP concurrently, again my specialty is Health Services - however as both entry plans are Officer entry plans I believe you can - with that said, it's best to confirm with your Recruiter/File Manager.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

AliTheAce said:
			
		

> For some reason I forgot to reply back to this thread after your responses, but...
> 
> Thanks for your help!
> 
> Now, on a side-note, when applying for the RCAF, can I apply for both RMC - ROTP Pilot and CEOTP - Pilot? Or do I have to pick just one?
> 
> if you had the choice, which one would you pick? This is the biggest dilemma of my life. I'm in cadets and I just LOVE the military atmosphere and the sense of family you have, plus how disciplined it makes you. I'm really gonna miss that in Seneca when I'm not gone flight training. But, on the other hand, I would love to become a pilot earlier (8 years total for RMC vs 4 years total for CEOTP) which would give me a longer and potentially more fruitful career. I also want to compete in cycling, which RMC seems to have had a team in the past for. I would love to study Aerospace Engineering at RMC since anything related to aviation is my passion, and I really enjoy physics in all forms.
> 
> Also, which one would give me a better chance of getting into? RMC most likely sees more applicants than Seneca due to it's appeal, so I'm assuming CEOTP would be less competitive and therefore easier to get into? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> My current marks range from 76% in Advanced Functions (Hopefully I can bring them back up) to 89% in Physics and French. I should also be getting my Glider Pilot Scholarship this summer hopefully. Although I'm kind of forced to take a year off after high school because I need to wait for my citizenship to come in. I'll be working throughout the year, and also will be focusing on cycling.



Seneca still have to do at least phase 2, 3 and 4 though (I think they skip phase 1?), so you can add at least 3 additional years to the time you spend at Seneca.


----------



## JDW

As Buck_HRA mentioned, CEOTP students go through flying phases in between attending semesters at Senaca, so it takes a total of 4 years to get your BA in Aviation and to be a qualified pilot.


----------



## da1root

Just noticed this Pilot Event on Facebook for tomorrow (25-Nov-17)
https://www.facebook.com/events/139765729987302/

"Details:
Have you thought about becoming a Pilot in the Royal Canadian Air Force? Consider the Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) Pilot Program.

This unique training program enables candidates to obtain a Bachelor of Aviation Technology and Pilot’s Wings over a four-year period. In the first year of this program, candidates will complete Basic Military Officer Training, followed by Phase 1 Military Flying Training. In their second year, successful candidates will move into the academic phase at Seneca College in Toronto, Ontario. During the remaining two years of this program, candidates will complete their military flying training and the remainder of their studies at Seneca College."

The event is tomorrow from 10am to 2pm at Seneca College Newnham Campus 1750 Finch Ave. East, Toronto, ON M2J 2X5


----------



## AliTheAce

Aw man, I just didn't look at the reply early enough! I had the Santa Claus parade this morning so unfortunately didn't get to go :/

Thank you for letting me know though! Was there an alert or a notification you got that helped you find it or did you stumble across it by chance?

Anyone here who went and is willing to share some information with me? I'd really appreciate it.

I hope they run it next fall so I can attend it and gain some information on it, would have been really helpful.


----------



## Roger123

AliTheAce said:
			
		

> Aw man, I just didn't look at the reply early enough! I had the Santa Claus parade this morning so unfortunately didn't get to go :/



LOL.  :rofl:

How old are you?  ;D. Just kidding. Have a great day!


----------



## AliTheAce

Roger123 said:
			
		

> LOL.  :rofl:
> 
> How old are you?  ;D. Just kidding. Have a great day!



Hahah, I'm in cadets and the Santa Claus parade in Pickering is hosted by our sponsors, so it was mandatory for us to go.

If only I knew about the fair earlier, I could've asked to be excused :/


----------



## da1root

AliTheAce said:
			
		

> Thank you for letting me know though! Was there an alert or a notification you got that helped you find it or did you stumble across it by chance?


There was an alert on Facebook by Forces Jobs: https://www.facebook.com/ForcesJobs.ForcesEmplois.CA/



			
				Roger123 said:
			
		

> What do you guys do in cadets? And what got you interested in cadets?


Suggest taking that conversation to PM or starting a new new topic


----------



## mariomike

Roger123 said:
			
		

> What do you guys do in cadets?



Cadets
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/board,12.0.html


----------



## pbi

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> :nod:
> 
> It's a technical skill on its own, and many nations employ varying structures of non-commissioned members to do so -- the technical side does not need officership, many (myself included) would argue.  Nothing special about t, just exacting with little room for error, but that's it.
> 
> G2G



Thanks G2G. I was going to mention the Sgt Pilots of WWII (and the WO hel pilots of Vietnam) to reinforce the "apples and oranges", but much better coming from One Who Knows.


----------



## dapaterson

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Nothing special about t, just exacting with little room for error, but that's it.



Little room for technical error.

Personality error, on the other hand  :nod:


----------



## MAJONES

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And pretty much any moron can fly a plane......



From my experience as a civilian flight instructor I can state that this is not correct.  I've seen a number of people who just could not learn to fly an aircraft.  I've seen an even greater number that could figure out how to fly an aircraft, but only during daylight and good weather and God help them if they had system failure.  Not everyone can be a professional pilot.


----------



## Good2Golf

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Little room for technical error.
> 
> Personality error, on the other hand  :nod:



True, but then lack of personality isn’t limited to those with their hands on the controls.  It could also be the guy behind them who carries the flight pubs and makes the hotel bookings for the warriors up front. ;D


----------



## Good2Golf

MAJONES said:
			
		

> From my experience as a civilian flight instructor I can state that this is not correct.  I've seen a number of people who just could not learn to fly an aircraft.  I've seen an even greater number that could figure out how to fly an aircraft, but only during daylight and good weather and God help them if they had system failure.  Not everyone can be a professional pilot.



So the same as drivers on the road? 

Cheers
G2G


----------



## Journeyman

MAJONES said:
			
		

> I've seen a number of people who just could not learn to fly an aircraft.


They probably could if they went to Seneca; apparently those folks are awesome.   



Since we've obviously given up any pretense of discussing RMC regulations and leadership, in favour of Pilot Personality Disorder.


----------



## MAJONES

As much as I would like to discuss pilot training and Seneca, that is a bit off topic for this thread.


----------



## Journeyman

MAJONES said:
			
		

> As much as I would like to discuss pilot training and Seneca, that is a bit off topic for this thread.



Gee, ya think?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

To get back to the difference between Seneca graduates and MilCol graduates, however, Isn't it fair to say that, unless they pick up a Bachelor's degree along the way, you won't find too many Seneca graduate pilots above the rank of Major? 

I suppose that's OK, because the RCAF probably expects that the Seneca graduate will do their 20 years then go fly for Air Canada or Westjet  :nod:

And Journeyman, when did you acquire a copy of my picture ???


----------



## Pusser

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> The problem with every Tom, Dick and Harry having the opportunity to jump in front of the camera is that many of them are misinformed, uninformed, or just have an axe to grind. Think of the membership on this board. If we take a cross section of board membership and give them media privileges - do you think accurate information is going to get out? Or will it be contradictory, poorly researched, or possibly even inflammatory?
> 
> In the CFNIS, we deal with sensitive often serious cases. Often, media lines need to be drafted and the PAO in consultation with the case manager is the vetting authority for those lines. Would I want every MP with access to the information to be able to speak to it in front of the camera? Absolutely not. Often they aren't privy to all the available information in order to make an informed opinion. As I've seen here, too many people have an axe to grind and come out swinging without all the information, or choose to release selective information in order to influence opinion.
> 
> If the OCdts are truly unable to effect change - to whit - jeans, in their institution, and they feel they need to use the media as a cudgel, I would suggest they instead take their release and give themselves the privilege of wearing jeans all day, everyday.



Excellent points.  The CAF has nothing to hide when speaking to the media, but we really do need to keep media relations on a profession vice Trumpian level.


----------



## BurmaShave

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> To get back to the difference between Seneca graduates and MilCol graduates, however, Isn't it fair to say that, unless they pick up a Bachelor's degree along the way, you won't find too many Seneca graduate pilots above the rank of Major?
> 
> I suppose that's OK, because the RCAF probably expects that the Seneca graduate will do their 20 years then go fly for Air Canada or Westjet  :nod:
> 
> And Journeyman, when did you acquire a copy of my picture ???



Seneca pilots finish with a Bachelor's. A made up one, but you can still do a master's with it.

We're certainly less steeped in (edit: formal) discipline and leadership than the RMC guys (but so are the DEOs), and you won't find us on punishment parades for wearing jeans.


----------



## meni0n

BurmaShave said:
			
		

> Seneca pilots finish with a Bachelor's. A made up one, but you can still do a master's with it.
> 
> We're certainly less steeped in discipline and leadership than the RMC guys (but so are the DEOs), and you won't find us on punishment parades for wearing jeans.


That's because you can wear whatever you want on your time off?

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


----------



## MAJONES

BurmaShave said:
			
		

> We're certainly less steeped in discipline and leadership than the RMC guys (but so are the DEOs),



I'm going to simply state that your statement does not mesh well with the reality that I have observed.


----------



## BurmaShave

Given the interest and confusion on the Seneca program in the RMC Jeans Debacle thread, I figured I'd summarize what I know over here.

Fair warning, I'm a 1st Year, and a 2Lt. My knowledge, experience, and seniority are all heavily limited.

[list type=decimal]
[*]*What is the Seneca Program?*

The Seneca Program, also at various times known as the CEOTP-Pilot or AEAD (air environment affiliated degree) program is a 4 year combined school and flying program, designed to produce winged, degreed captains in 4 years vs. the normal 7. It combines 5 semesters of dumbed-down engineering courses with 3 Phases of flight training (delivered by the RCAF). It operates in parallel to the civilian FPR program at Seneca for the first year -classes are mixed civilian and military- but diverges after that point.


[*]*Entry into the Seneca Program:*

Entry into the program requires a high school degree, minimum 65% across the board. There are specific courses that you must have taken in high school; once you remind a recruiter of the program's existence, they should be able to look them up. Passing the CFAT and ACS is required, and exempts you from writing the Seneca entrance exam.


[*]*Year 1:*

This program (ideally) begins in January of the year you enroll, and finishes in December 4 years later. Your first year, you will do basic training and be commissioned as a 2Lt, then proceed on Phase I flight training in Portage in the summer. After completion of Ph I, you'll be posted to Toronto and start school in September with all the civilian students. Any spare time (ie if you do basic earlier) you will be sent on OJT, preferably near where you live.

When you get to Toronto, you'll be strongly encouraged to live in residence. Res is expensive, and there is not a proper cafeteria, but the 2Lt. pay covers it quite nicely; books and tuition are paid by the military. Seneca insists that the Aviation program be uniformed to maintain a professional appearance. For military, this means 3Bs Monday and Tuesday, and flight suits the other 3 days (it was originally 3Bs 4 days a week, but people kept thinking we were bus drivers).

This program is pre-planned, there are no electives. Classes will include Calculus, Statics, Chemistry, and a basic French course. The quality of instruction is considerably lower than a proper university, and you will pass half your courses despite your profs, not because of them. Keep in mind, a pass in this program is 65%. About 1/3rd of the civilians will fail to meet this and go home; traditionally no military students fail.

Another perk of the Seneca program (the best perk for me right now) is sim time. There is a B200 King Air simulator at the college, in the basement. It's a fixed-base, surround screen setup with a fully modeled cockpit. You will have free access to this throughout your time at the school (indeed, you will be required to do at least 1 hour per week), and you will also get 1 hour instruction a month from John and Adam, a pair of (downright excellent) Transat pilots. Conveniently, the King Air flies at effectively the same speeds as the Harvard, so it's fantastic practice. Seneca students start Ph II with 50 sim hours, which is huge when you've only got 20 hours from Ph I. You'll also have at least a foundation in IFR, radio chaos, terrible crosswinds, and just general "flying twice as fast"


[*]*Year 2:*

Year 2 begins with the winter semester, which builds on the material learned in the Fall. It's more difficult, but not substantially more so. This will get you to April, at which point the civvies head to Peterborough to fly Cessnas, and you go to Moose Jaw for Phase II. Before you can do Ph II, you need to complete AMT (folks who started basic before January already had time for this). This is a 2 day course in Winnipeg, and includes cheesy videos of things burning, sensory illusions, and fun with hypoxia. This marks the end of what I'm qualified to comment on in detail right now. After AMT, Phase II starts in June, and runs till February.


[*]*Year 3:*

At the beginning of Year 3, you'll be completing Ph II in Moose Jaw. At the end of Phase II, students are streamed 3 ways: Jets, Helo, and Multi. Before Phase III, everyone has to complete Land Survival and Sea Survival. All students then proceed on Ph III; Jets remain in Moose Jaw, Helo and Multi return to Portage. The Multi and Jets Ph IIIs are shorter (and ironically the jets one doesn't involve jets), while the Helo one is quite long. Upon completing your Ph III, you'll get your wings. Depending on timings, there may be time for follow-on courses (ie the Hawk conversion course), but you need to be done by December, for return to Seneca.


[*]*Year 4:*

It's now Year 4 (2022 if you start in 2019), and you're all reunited at Seneca in January, ready to resume academics. The civs are nowhere to be found (they're still in Peterborough), and the classes are less demanding, relatively, than 1st year. By all accounts from the departing senior course, it's a victory lap. Year 4 is made of 3 semesters, done back-to-back-to-back. At the end of these 3 semesters, it is December, and you're graduating, ready to proceed to operational flying. 4 years for a degree and wings.


[*]*Outcomes:*

This has to be one of the most heavily speculated things about the Seneca program: will it put a damper on your career advancement? The honest answer is "check back in a decade". Seneca graduates have just reached operational flying in the past two years, so there's no data. We're told that the program grants a bachelor's degree, and so it won't hold us back, but no-one knows. Give it 20 years, and we'll see if any graduates have made LCol.

Certainly, it doesn't have SLT integrated with it. If you're after bilingualism, you'll have to do SLT after you're operational, or find some other means of exposure.

The one outcome we do know, however, is Phase II performance. The majority of the preceding courses got the stream they wanted, and they generally outscored their peers. I can't say what drives that, but I'd wager the sim is instrumental.
[/list]

This is just a rough summary of the program, E&OE. I'll try and update it as I see more.


----------



## BurmaShave

Let me rephrase that: we don't spend 4 years with RMC-esque restrictions, nor do we have the same structure. No obstacle courses, parade, drill competitions, or special uniforms. No FYOps, and no rings.

There's nothing in this program designed around "producing leadership" explicitly.

However, I was just referring to formal education. All the Seneca groups I've seen have been pretty switched on, while the RMC guys have had a certain _reputation_ preceeding them. In Portage there were a few discipline issues that confirmed that reputation.


----------



## Gunner98

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> **edit -someone beat me to it
> 
> I think you’re ill informed. Seneca occurs under the CEOTP entry. The deal is you go to basic as an OCDT and get commissioned as 2lt upon completion of basic. Then you do PFT. Then you do 1 year subsidized training at Seneca as a 2LT. Then you do more pilot training and then back to Seneca.
> 
> The time at Seneca is full salary as a 2LT.  It is pensionable and you can network with all the other pilots at Seneca.  It is a very quick way to become a qualified captain pilot. much sooner than an RMC pilot.
> 
> These Seneca guys are going to be the next generation of RCAF leaders. If you want to be a pilot Seneca is the way to go.
> 
> From the RCAF website:
> 
> http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/article-template-standard.page?doc=rcaf-and-seneca-college-accelerate-military-pilot-training/hrhjdzop



You folks make it sound so easy, I think you need to look at the failure rate for pilot training, just because you enter via the RMC or Seneca programs does not mean you will ever fly an operational mission in a CAF aircraft.  I have been surrounded by pilot-training failures as an Artillery Officer and a Health Care Administrator.


----------



## Good2Golf

BurmaShave, thanks - great info!  If the cross-section of Seneca mil students is reasonably similar to general human personality distributions, there will likely be a solid core-cadre goo at what they  do, a smaller group who also inherently have potential to be great leaders a well (and should be able to do so if enabled with applicable means along the progression of their careers), and of course, some folks who may inherently 'align less with the institution' than the other folks.  As you noted, (a fair bit of) time will tell how the Seneca stream fits into the career progression path.  Even today, there is a notably non-homogenous blend of degreed officers, comprising ROTP (Military College(s) [3 of them, in fact]), ROTP CivU, DEO, OCTP, CEOTP, CFR, BMAS, etc., so I am wary of anyone who throws out 'ROTP has better potential to lead than a DEO/CEOTP'...as there would be at least three separate Mil Cols and many CivUs from which an 'ROTP' officer could have come.

Cheers,
G2G


----------



## winnipegoo7

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> You folks make it sound so easy, I think you need to look at the failure rate for pilot training, just because you enter via the RMC or Seneca programs does not mean you will ever fly an operational mission in a CAF aircraft.  I have been surrounded by pilot-training failures as an Artillery Officer and a Health Care Administrator.



I don't see what your point is? That some people aren't successful in their training?

Also, would you please tell me the current pilot training failure rate? Because, my understanding is that it has been greatly reduced, but perhaps I'm wrong?


----------



## MAJONES

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Also, would you please tell me the current pilot training failure rate? Because, my understanding is that it has been greatly reduced, but perhaps I'm wrong?



About 30 percent.


----------



## Gunner98

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> I don't see what your point is? That some people aren't successful in their training?
> 
> Also, would you please tell me the current pilot training failure rate? Because, my understanding is that it has been greatly reduced, but perhaps I'm wrong?



My point is just because you enroll at RMC or Seneca does not mean you will ever fly an operational mission.  I work with folks who spent several years as 2Lt/OCdts due to injuries which lead to a change in their medical categories.  It took some time to sort out the what next.  So on top of the 30% failure rate add a few more % for re-classifications.


----------



## Loachman

MAJONES said:
			
		

> About 30 percent.



Through the whole process, or per stage?


----------



## winnipegoo7

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> My point is just because you enroll at RMC or Seneca does not mean you will ever fly an operational mission.  I work with folks who spent several years as 2Lt/OCdts due to injuries which lead to a change in their medical categories.  It took some time to sort out the what next.  So on top of the 30% failure rate add a few more % for re-classifications.



And what does that have to do with my explanation of how the Seneca program works?


----------



## Downhiller229

Loachman said:
			
		

> Through the whole process, or per stage?




It's almost impossible to drop people once they are in the NFTC program. Anecdotally I would say 2 max 3 people get cease trained in ph 2 per year. Thats out of 8 courses of 16 on average. 

Ph3 Harvard and multi have basically nonexistent fail rates. I heard the helo ph3 has a bit higher rate.  

I think most of the cutting is done at aircrew selection and phase 1. After that once they get their wings they might fail the OTU but they remain pilots, just sent to another stream.


----------



## winnipegoo7

MAJONES said:
			
		

> About 30 percent.



With all due respect, are you guessing or are you an instructor/quoting an official report? I ask because it appears that you did your phase training years ago and as Downhiller229 has pointed out, there appears to be very, very few training failures after aircrew selection (at the present time).  

Also, I haven't heard of anyone failing phase I (I know some who did not pass due to medical or personal issues though). My suspicion is that aircrew selection is better now (weed out people lacking the necessary aptitude earlier) and that the CAF is short pilots so maybe they give more second chances.

Also, I found this document from 2012 (from before we switched to the new aircrew selection program - RAF style) that states,  "The RCAF pilot training success rate from selection (after testing at CFASC) to “wings” graduation is approximately 59 percent compared to 85 percent for the Royal Air Force (RAF) which has an age limit of 23 for pilot candidates.[7]" 

So I do believe that "back in the old days" there was a 30% failure rate, but I have trouble believing that now.



http://www.crs-csex.forces.gc.ca/reports-rapports/2012/187p0940-eng.aspx

edited - bad grammar and to improve clarity


----------



## Griffon

Glad to see speculation is still rampant here! For the uninformed: failures still can and do occur both in Portage and Moose Jaw. On average you’ll see 1-3 people CT’d per course in Moose Jaw, I can’t speak to the stats in Portage. It’s just a fact of life, and not something one should really be focused on. Just go for it, put it all on the table, pick yourself up when things don’t go ideally, and let the chips fall where they may. Don’t worry about the stats, they’re just numbers.


----------



## Downhiller229

Griffon said:
			
		

> On average you’ll see 1-3 people CT’d per course in Moose Jaw



Not that this is what we are debating but... there's no way in a thousand years they fail 2-3 people per course in MJ I would say 5 CTs a year max.


----------



## Lumber

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> Not that this is what we are debating but... there's no way in a thousand years they fail 2-3 people per course in MJ I would say 5 CTs a year max.



Umm.. Did you just actually just disagree with someone who actually works for 2CFFTS?


----------



## Downhiller229

Lumber said:
			
		

> Umm.. Did you just actually just disagree with someone who actually works for 2CFFTS?



Umm.. yes, I just did? What evidence do you have that I don't also work for 2CFFTS? Or at the very least have spent a relatively long portion of time there doing stats for that exact kind of thing? Unless something went catastrophically wrong in the last 18 months I stand by my statement. 

By the way I do agree that it's not a number people should care about. There's other things to worry about out during ph2


----------



## Good2Golf

Downhiller229 said:
			
		

> Unless something went catastrophically wrong in the last 18 months I stand by my statement.



How much less than '_catastrophically_' would things have to go wrong for you to consider that you might not have the most recent and accurate information about the goings on at The Big 2?   ???

G2G


----------



## Downhiller229

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> How much less than '_catastrophically_' would things have to go wrong for you to consider that you might not have the most recent and accurate information about the goings on at The Big 2?   ???
> 
> G2G



Well 2 per course would be more or less 16 per year and that would be 150% higher then the average historical rate since the new syllabus came in. is my info current? Definitely not it's at least 18 months old. But it for sure was between 4-6 per year for quite a few years, excluding medical/compassionate recourses? Maybe that's where it gets lost in translation? 

But I have a hard time believing that straigh up CTs tripled in the last 18 months unless something changed dramatically.


----------



## Griffon

Evidence: 8 PRBs in a single week last year. One week. 

Remember, CTs happen for course failure, medical issues, and voluntary withdrawals. 1-3 per course is far from an astronomical figure. We lost one guy on my course. Two from the following. It just happens. The point is getting to MJ does NOT mean you’re going to make it through. 

I’m not going to get into the details of the stats as they’re unimportant, they’re obviously not in front of my face right now, and it’s not really for the public as each individual has their own experience and challenges. The point is: it happens. People fail. Don’t dwell on it. Just don’t expect success. Work for your success. Dedicate your efforts to it. 

I’ll be completely honest here: instructors will always do their duty in instructing you. But if you put in exceptional effort, many will go above and beyond on the ground in facilitating further growth. Show your desire and work ethic and reap the benefits, both in training and your operational career afterwards.


----------



## winnipegoo7

Lumber said:
			
		

> Umm.. Did you just actually just disagree with someone who actually works for 2CFFTS?



Because no pilot’s ever been mistaken about anything ever?  That’s the first time I’ve heard a MARS officer claim that.  :rofl:




			
				Griffon said:
			
		

> ...the stats as they’re unimportant... ... not really for the public ....



I appreciate you sharing what you've seen and experienced.

The reason I’ve been arguing about this is because there seems to be an illogical myth about pilot failure rates. This is where statistics are important as that is the only scientific way to know the rate. Obviously the CAF has these stats (I don’t expect you to know them or to share them) and I suspect that these numbers are public information (might need an access to info request). - the facts exist somewhere. 

So it annoys me when some of the old guys on this site claim that the pilot failure rate is super high because they met a failed pilot once 30+ years ago.


----------



## BurmaShave

For hard stats, D Air Pers Strat had a spreadsheet predicting about 35% attrition end-to-end. 5% Phase 3, 5-10% Phase 2, 15-25% Phase 1, 5% other sources (these may have been recourse rates). Those are derived from some predictive model, not actual historical data (they had that, too, but this was a 15 minute conversation last year while delivering toner to 110, and my memory isn't _that_ good).

Personal experience, no hard CTs in 3 courses of Phase I. 1 recourse each course for airsickness. However, there were absolute boatloads of PRBs. Half the prior course were PRB'd, some twice. We had about 5 of our 20 go to PRB, no doubles.

Also, winnipegoo7, I have the nagging feeling like you're not winning this one  op:


----------



## winnipegoo7

BurmaShave said:
			
		

> Also, winnipegoo7, I have the nagging feeling like you're not winning this one  op:



I just wanted ‘facts’. Thanks for sharing some more info. 

Also your phase I experience sounds remarkably similar to mine. 


Edit** I’ll also admit that I’m a Burmashave fan and that I probably wouldn’t have passed PHI without his assistance (if you’re  who I think you are)


----------



## BurmaShave

You're too kind 
Despite what the big mean flight instructor says, you fly pretty well.

...I renege on my earlier comment. You're well qualified for internet arguments.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The Air Force seems to do a pretty good job screening people.  Most of my friends that were pilots when I went to RMC, passed training.  The same can't be said for all the aspiring Infantry Officers.  The Army is finally starting to catch on that one of the most expensive courses the Army runs isn't the time to be figuring out how tough or not someone is, that can probably be determined beforehand and in a heck of lot quicker period of time.  Especially when my course had a 72% failure rate, awful lot of money to be spent having to recycle almost three out of every four candidates.  Then again, there were lots of gym monkeys that weren't so strong once they lost a few nights sleep and sat out in the rain for a week straight.


----------



## tomahawk6

Which person will make a good officer is like throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks.I am biased but the guys that stick it out for a career are officers from the ranks from our OCS.Just my opinion.


----------



## Lumber

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Which person will make a good officer is like throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks.I am biased but the guys that stick it out for a career are officers from the ranks from our OCS.Just my opinion.



I find former NCMs provide a highly valuable perspective, and I'm happy we have a process of commission from the ranks. However, I do not believe being a former NCM automatically ensures you will be a fine officer, and certainly doesn't guarantee that you will have a longer and more illustrious career than other officers. I have met/served with officers who were former NCMs who were absolute plugs; but, I have also met officers with no previous NCM service who were plugs as well.

So, like you, I think a lot of it is seeing what sticks, and that includes former NCMs. 

Does anyone know off the top of their heads if any of the senior brass is a former NCM? Vance, Rouleau, Hood, Lloyd, Wynnyk? I'm pretty sure three of these guys are Royal Roads grads.


----------



## garb811

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Which person will make a good officer is like throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks.I am biased but the guys that stick it out for a career are officers from the ranks from our OCS.Just my opinion.


Sadly, the worst officers I have encountered within my Branch have all come from the ranks, primarily via SCP where they can self-nominate.


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## Gunner98

Vance - RRMC
**Hood - Infantry as a Guardsman with the Canadian Grenadier Guards before enrolling in the Regular Force
Lloyd - RRMC
Rouleau joined the first time at 19 years old and then second time from Ottawa Police Force
Wynnyk - RRMC/RMC
Parent - CMR
St-Amand - RMC
Chapdelaine - Chap Gen served as a NCM in Reserve Medical Unit while completing his degree
Bennett -Outgoing DG CAF Strat Response to on Sexual Misconduct - joined the reserves as a Naval Communicator


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## sidemount

garb811 said:
			
		

> Sadly, the worst officers I have encountered within my Branch have all come from the ranks, primarily via SCP where they can self-nominate.


I've had the complete opposite experience. The best and hardest working Officers that looked after their troops that I have had in the last 15 years were CFRs and UTP candidates. The worst, and always seemed like they were just there for the "check in the box" were the ROTP ones. So its easy to see examples on both sides of that equation. There are good and bad officers from all backgrounds.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## MAJONES

Loachman said:
			
		

> Through the whole process, or per stage?



Whole process.


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## MAJONES

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> With all due respect, are you guessing or are you an instructor/quoting an official report? I ask because it appears that you did your phase training years ago and as Downhiller229 has pointed out, there appears to be very, very few training failures after aircrew selection (at the present time).
> 
> Also, I haven't heard of anyone failing phase I (I know some who did not pass due to medical or personal issues though). My suspicion is that aircrew selection is better now (weed out people lacking the necessary aptitude earlier) and that the CAF is short pilots so maybe they give more second chances.
> 
> Also, I found this document from 2012 (from before we switched to the new aircrew selection program - RAF style) that states,  "The RCAF pilot training success rate from selection (after testing at CFASC) to “wings” graduation is approximately 59 percent compared to 85 percent for the Royal Air Force (RAF) which has an age limit of 23 for pilot candidates.[7]"
> 
> I chaired all the PFT PRBs for about a year and now I work in a cubicle, (in Ottawa), through which pilot training attrition stats pass.
> 
> So I do believe that "back in the old days" there was a 30% failure rate, but I have trouble believing that now.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.crs-csex.forces.gc.ca/reports-rapports/2012/187p0940-eng.aspx
> 
> edited - bad grammar and to improve clarity



I chaired all the PFT PRBs for about a year and now I work in a cubicle, (in Ottawa), through which pilot training attrition stats pass.


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## Lumber

Bazinga.


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## Loachman

MAJONES said:
			
		

> Whole process.



Interesting.

It was 30% in Portage alone when I went through, and 50% on the 01 courses each year. Substitution of civ instructors, who wanted the job, in place of pipeliners on the least-desired flying posting in the entire CF probably dropped that a lot. The first (trial) course in 1992 saw a 100% pass rate - but that was only ten students, all of whom were Captains with at least a couple of years in their previous occupations.

I probably owe my Wings more to having had a mature ex-Tracker instructor who was married than any great ability on my part. Had I been stuck with an RMC pipeliner whose dreams of fighter and fair-maiden-conquering glory had been shattered with three-year sentence served on Musketeers and the slim pickings of "eligible" bachelorettes denizens of the few downtown bars I'd likely have a much different username on this Site, if I ever had reason to join in the first place.

We lost a few more guys in Moose Jaw. I can't remember how many, but a few failed for flying, one for academics, at least one VR, and one medically recoursed. The total there would have been around 15% or a little higher, as a guess.

On the other hand, nobody had failed the Jet Ranger course for twelve years until the one before mine in 1982. That fellow, while between courses, fell off of his dirtbike at a track near Moose Jaw after cresting a hill and had his head run over by two (or possibly more) following bikes; it was said that he was never quite the same afterwards.


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## CplHenderson

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Vance - RRMC
> **Hood - Infantry as a Guardsman with the Canadian Grenadier Guards before enrolling in the Regular Force
> Lloyd - RRMC
> Rouleau joined the first time at 19 years old and then second time from Ottawa Police Force
> Wynnyk - RRMC/RMC
> Parent - CMR
> St-Amand - RMC
> Chapdelaine - Chap Gen served as a NCM in Reserve Medical Unit while completing his degree
> Bennett -Outgoing DG CAF Strat Response to on Sexual Misconduct - joined the reserves as a Naval Communicator



Since most RMC join straight out of high school as opposed to DEO and Commission from Ranks, it makes sense that they'd make up the bulk of the generals. They have more "time to serve" as officers, so to speak. I'll bet on average RMC officers are several years younger than their DEO counterparts, certainly over former enlisted.

CEOTP is definitely weird; we have a couple people right out of high school, and they may have some sort of advantage. They join at 18 years old, and finish their bachelor's, get their wings and make Captain by 22 (sometimes 21!). However, the makeup of the class is a bit older than that, probably averaging 21-23 ish at entry, so that advantage might not be reflected in the numbers down the line.

Ultimately there have only been two graduated classes, meaning the most experienced CEOTP pilots have been operational for 2 years. Like Burma said, only way to know for sure is to check back in a decade or two. Maybe there's a glass ceiling no one's run into yet, who knows.


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## sbje1959

I just got the news that I received my Air Factor for Pilot!

The Sergeant told me that I'm now ready for selections, but didn't know when the next one is taking place.

I'm applying for the CEOTP-AEAD program through Seneca College.

EDIT: I suppose I should actually ask a question...

What are my odds like of receiving an offer at this point? And how often are selections done? Can I hope for news soon or should I expect not to hear anything for a while?


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## Lockwire

So let me get this straight: CEOTP for PLT is pretty much like UTPNCM but easier and you get your wings within 4 years as opposed to graduating after 4 yrs and then probably being stuck in OPS OJT jobs for 3 years? God damn why doesn't everyone do this...

Just finished 10 years as AVN and thinking of applying for CEOTP instead of trying to make UTPNCM work, any tips?

You save your current pay, by pass partially BMOQ, and either live on campus or off campus with PLD?


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## winnipegoo7

Lockwire said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight: CEOTP for PLT is pretty much like UTPNCM but easier and you get your wings within 4 years as opposed to graduating after 4 yrs and then probably being stuck in OPS OJT jobs for 3 years? God damn why doesn't everyone do this...
> 
> Just finished 10 years as AVN and thinking of applying for CEOTP instead of trying to make UTPNCM work, any tips?
> 
> You save your current pay, by pass partially BMOQ, and either live on campus or off campus with PLD?



Yes a Seneca pilot gets wings much sooner. 

Idk if Seneca is easier than say, basket weaving at some university. 

There are only so many positions, so not everyone can do it, also you have to be medically fit, pass selection, and be selected. 

The current post ROTP/UTPNCM wait time for phase 2 seems to be 6 - 9 months.

I don’t think a reg F member can apply for CEOTP (had a buddy try was told no). So it’s more like ROTP. 

You’ll have to do UTPNCM; or switch to res f and then apply to CEOTP; or release and apply for CEOTP. 


UTPNCM has pay protection, can live off campus, can get pld (depending which school) and you’d only have to do mod 2 BMOQ (unless you have plq, then you can bypass both mods)

I recommend UTP if you’re reg f.


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## garb811

Reg Force can indeed apply for CEOTP, see DAOD 5002-6.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I saw a CANFORGEN last week that was specifically targeting the Seneca CEOTP pilot program.


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## winnipegoo7

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I have not seen a CEOTP solicitation message in the last few years (maybe 5 years?).  If you say there is a solicitation message for CEOTP for pilot I'll take your word for it, but I haven't seen one recently. 


** and that friend I mentioned, he tried to get into the Seneca program last year, but the PSO told him that he had to apply for UTPNCM.

*** strangely the DAOD doesn't mention the Seneca program.

Cheers


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## sidemount

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I have not seen a CEOTP solicitation message in the last few years (maybe 5 years?).  If you say there is a solicitation message for CEOTP for pilot I'll take your word for it, but I haven't seen one recently.
> 
> 
> ** and that friend I mentioned, he tried to get into the Seneca program last year, but the PSO told him that he had to apply for UTPNCM.
> 
> *** strangely the DAOD doesn't mention the Seneca program.
> 
> Cheers


Funny you should say that, I havent seen on either but a canforgen dated 17 may was just released for 2019 ceotp competition.
ACSO
PLT
AEC
EME

Sent from my S8 using Tapatalk (expect typos)


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## K1tesurf

sidemount said:
			
		

> Funny you should say that, I havent seen on either but a canforgen dated 17 may was just released for 2019 ceotp competition.
> ACSO
> PLT
> AEC
> EME
> 
> Sent from my S8 using Tapatalk (expect typos)




sssshhhhhh. No one needs to know


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## winnipegoo7

Is it for Seneca or is it just the “regular” CEOTP?

Edit. Answering my own question. Yes it’s for Seneca. 

I say go for it, but if you fail pilot training there might be extra problems as you will only have one year of school done (as opposed to utpncm who would have a degree) I’m not sure what other trades you would be offered.


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