# Afghanistan heating up



## Armymedic (15 May 2005)

Two stories along the same theme...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/15/afghan.protests.reut/

Clerics threaten holy war over alleged Quran desecrations
Sunday, May 15, 2005 Posted: 7:33 AM EDT (1133 GMT) 

FAIZABAD, Afghanistan (Reuters) -- A group of Afghan Muslim clerics have threatened to call for a holy war against the United States in three days unless it hands over military interrogators reported to have desecrated the Quran.

The warning on Sunday came after 16 Afghans were killed and more than 100 hurt last week in the worst anti-U.S. protests across the country since U.S. forces invaded in 2001 to oust the Taliban for sheltering Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda network.

The clerics in the northeastern province of Badakhshan said they wanted U.S. President George W. Bush to handle the matter honestly "and hand the culprits over to an Islamic country for punishment."

"If that does not happen within three days, we will launch a jihad against America," said a statement issued by about 300 clerics, referring to Muslim holy war, after meeting in the main mosque in the provincial capital, Faizabad.

The statement was read out by Abdul Fatah Fayeq, the top judicial official in the mountainous, conservative province near the borders of Tajikistan and China.

Muslim clerics have traditionally been teachers and leaders in Afghan society and throughout its history they have rallied public opinion and sometimes led uprisings against unpopular rulers and foreign occupiers.

Newsweek magazine said in its May 9 edition investigators probing abuses at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay found that interrogators "had placed Qurans on toilets, and in at least one case flushed a holy book down the toilet."

Muslims consider the Quran the literal word of God and treat each book with deep reverence.

The United States has tried to calm global Muslim outrage over the incident, saying disrespect for the Quran was abhorrent and would not be tolerated, and military authorities were investigating the allegation.

Growing protests
Another group of clerics in the north demanded punishment for those responsible for desecrating the Quran but did not call for holy war, the governor of Kunduz province said.

The protests began in the eastern city of Jalalabad on Tuesday. Violence broke out there on Wednesday and there were clashes in several other places on Thursday and Friday.

Scattered protests on Saturday were mostly peaceful, while on Sunday no demonstrations were reported.

While some Afghan analysts say Muslim rage over the desecration report sparked the protests, not hatred of America, there is growing resentment of U.S. troops, especially in southeastern areas where they are most active.

The United States commands a foreign force in Afghanistan of about 18,300, most of them American, fighting Taliban insurgents and hunting militant leaders, including bin Laden.

President Hamid Karzai, a staunch U.S. ally, has urged the United States to punish anyone found guilty of desecrating the Quran. He said foreign hands were behind the disturbances, but did not identify them.

The anti-U.S. protesters have also criticized Karzai and his U.S.-backed government, attacking and torching provincial offices and police stations as well as U.N. and aid agency compounds.


And...


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=638522

In Afghanistan, the Taliban rises again for fighting season
Instead of fizzling out, the rebels are staging their annual spring resurgence with a surprising new spirit, writes Nick Meo from Kabul. This wasn't what US military planners were expecting
15 May 2005


American soldiers in the mountain valley of Deh Chopan expect to be targeted by an unseen enemy. But the amateurish hit-and-run attacks of the Taliban - wildly fired rockets and mistimed roadside bombs - rarely inflict casualties. It was a shock, then, when a patrol was ambushed a fortnight ago with rocket-propelled grenades and sustained small arms fire. Six Americans were wounded. Two had their legs blown off. Two more were wounded badly enough to require evacuation to Germany for surgery.

The outcome of the ferocious five-hour battle was predictable enough - withering air power obliterated the Americans' enemies - *but not before a US unit had suffered serious casualties and was forced to fall back before a determined enemy assault*. A couple of days later nine Afghan National Army (ANA) soldiers died when they were ambushed by machine-gun fire as they got down from a truck in Kandahar province - the newly formed ANA's worst-ever combat loss. Then two US marines were killed in a cave where they had insurgents pinned down.

This wasn't what US military planners were expecting at the start of this spring's "fighting season" when the snow thaws in the mountains. After all, Afghanistan is supposed to be the war that the American military has won. The official emphasis has changed from combat operations to "hearts and minds" programmes.

Then, over the freezing Afghan winter, there were few attacks, leading to talk from the Kabul government and US military that the Taliban were short of recruits and low on morale. Soon, went the word, their commanders would be joining the amnesty set up to lure tired fighters in from the mountains. This programme is the hoped-for endgame after three and a half years of desultory guerrilla warfare which has tied down 18,000 US combat troops and cost the Pentagon more than $10bn ( £5.4bn) a year. The military is desperate to scale down troop numbers after September's parliamentary elections and hand over to Afghan forces and the 5,000 British troops who arrive at the end of this year.

That plan may now need a rethink. Instead of fizzling out, the Taliban have staged what has become a now-annual spring resurgence, and with a surprising new fighting spirit. Particularly worrying are signs that al-Qa'ida may once again be taking an interest in the war in Afghanistan. Since their rout in 2001 and the fall of their Taliban allies, the Arab and Chechen fighters loyal to Osama bin Laden seem to have concentrated efforts on Iraq, or simply on survival in the tribal belt of Pakistan. *Now there are fears that surviving elements may be trying to open a second front to Iraq. Fighting spirit has been rare among the Afghan recruits from the religious schools, the boys the Taliban fling into battle usually to be slaughtered. But this year their ranks seem to have been reinforced by more experienced and more determined men.*

The soldiers at Deh Chopan found evidence of that. When they had finished combing through the body parts of their enemies, *among the 44 dead were Chechens and Pakistanis, feared al-Qa'ida fighters*. Other reports indicate that more sophisticated tactics are being used and that new weapons are being smuggled in over the Pakistan border. When a Romanian soldier was killed near Kandahar last month *it was a modern anti-tank mine that blew up his armoured personnel carrier, not an improvised bomb or one of the old Soviet landmines that frequently don't work.*

Further north along the Pakistan border, near Khost, the war hasbecome a hot one - *human waves of Taliban fighters launch night assaults against the fortified bases of an Afghan mercenary force recruited by the CIA*. Those insurgents are under the command of an old warlord with links to Saudi Arabia - Jalaluddin Haqqani - whose Pakistan-based operations seem to have received a new infusion of Gulf money.

The capital, Kabul, has also seen a revival in terrorism. An apparent suicide bomb attack on a Kabul internet café popular with foreigners killed a UN employee and terrified foreign aid workers and diplomats. Then the worst anti-US riots since the fall of the Taliban devastated eastern Afghanistan last week. Seven died, aid agency buildings were burnt and looted, causing millions of dollars of damage.

Orchestrated as they may have been, the riots showed a new mood of anti-Americanism which will worry the US military and the Kabul government. The flashpoint for the protests were claims that the Koran had been desecrated during an interrogation at Guantanamo Bay, but the agitators found a willing following among Afghans angry with America. US commanders still insist they are winning in Afghanistan. In briefings they claim that Afghans who are sick of the war increasingly come forward with information about insurgent activity.

The tone has changed in recent months, however, with the outgoing US commander, General David Barno, warning of the danger of "terrorist spectaculars" and of a hard core of Taliban who would not surrender but fight on as a "wholly owned al-Qa'ida subsidiary".

The US military machine cannot really be damaged by a low-level insurgency that refuses to die, and US forces suffer nothing like the terrible casualty figures in Iraq. But increasingly it looks less and less as if the US military has won and more and more as if GIs are bogged down in a guerrilla war that threatens to go on for years to come. 



Bold print is my emphasis to point out changes of tactics that have occured since the spring thaw.

comments?


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## pbi (15 May 2005)

So far I don't see or hear too much that isn't pretty common for the end of the winter weather and the start of the campaign season for the bad guys. The violence is occurring more or less where it always has-the southeastern provinces near the Pak border, and seems to involve more or less the same crowd. The demonstration in Kabul is a bit unusual, but when you see the numbers it was pretty small and tame. Worse has happened in any US or Canadian city with a university riot. The events in Badakshan are a bit surprising: that was a dead quiet province the whole time I was there (it has a fairly small population and no real city), but again it shares a border with Pakistan and is a possible infiltration route as it is ISAF territory and thus very poorly controlled (the nearest presence is miles away at Kunduz).

The bad guys remain dangerous in Afghanistan, which is why we need proper military forces there not a UN clown act. But, things don't seem to be at "panic stations" yet-Afghanistan is a  devout Muslim nation  in some areas, but IMHO it is also a pragmatic Muslim nation: fundamentalism is not popular outside of the southeast, and the Taliban is widely hated. Afghanistan is definitely not Iraq.

Cheers.


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## jmackenzie_15 (15 May 2005)

Just when you think things are on the right path... this pisses me off.
We spent all that time with our allies trying to rebuild the country, and because of some rednecks treating prisoners like trash, the country could potentially drop back into chaos and we're back to square one with troops getting car bombed.

On a related topic, there are rumors LFAA was planning to send 300+ reservists to A-stan for 2006-2007.However, im sure that plan will change with the current developments.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 May 2005)

military interrogators reported to have desecrated the Quran.
handle the matter honestly  "and hand the culprits over to an Islamic country for punishment."

Quote from Jmackenzie,
_and because of some rednecks treating prisoners like trash_

...just can't resist getting that cheap shot in at the Americans, can you?
If you feel the need to be an idiot, why not try it on something proven and/or convicted people?


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## jmackenzie_15 (15 May 2005)

I have no doubt in my mind the prisoners at guantanomo are being treated as rumored.
Its not a cheap shot if its true.They have alot of idiots in their military.We have alot in ours.Ie, somalia.


"If you feel the need to be an idiot, why not try it on something proven and/or convicted people?"

I'm sure all these allegations over the past decade are all just being concocted by teenagers over the internet to give the cuban prison a bad name.Its really a very nice place.I went there for spring break.


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## Britney Spears (15 May 2005)

> We have alot in ours



Well this part is true, apparently we've got at least one...... :


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## Britney Spears (15 May 2005)

An by the way.... see what happens when stupid people believe everything they see on the internet?


<a href=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/international/asia/15cnd-afghan.html?hp&ex=1116216000&en=c35729128bc1194e&ei=5094&partner=homepage>Newsweek Says Koran Report Might Have Been Wrong</a>

 By REUTERS
Published: May 15, 2005

WASHINGTON, May 15 - Newsweek magazine on Sunday said it may have erred in a May 9 report that said U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, and apologized to victims of deadly violence sparked by the article.

The weekly news magazine said in its May 23 edition that the original source of the allegation was not sure where he saw the assertion that at least one copy of the Koran was flushed down a toilet in an attempt to get detainees to talk.

"We regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst," Editor Mark Whitaker wrote in the magazine's latest issue, due to appear on U.S. newsstands on Monday.

The report has sparked angry and violent protests across the Muslim world from Afghanistan, where 16 were killed and more than 100 injured, to Pakistan to Indonesia to Gaza.

On Sunday, Afghan Muslim clerics threatened to call for a holy war against the United States in three days unless it handed over the interrogators in question.

The May 9 report quoted unnamed sources as saying that military investigators probing abuse at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, found that interrogators had placed copies of the Koran on toilets and "in at least one case, flushed a holy book down the toilet."

Newsweek said a Pentagon spokesman told the magazine late last week that the story was wrong and that the military has found no credible evidence to support separate allegations of Koran desecration made by released detainees.

The U.S. military opened an investigation into the charges while top U.S. officials urged Muslims to resist calls for violence, stating disrespect for the holy book would not be tolerated.


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 May 2005)

The Afghani and US goverments should go after _Newsweek_ for damages. I bet that would make the media think twice before reporting possible false info.


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## Britney Spears (15 May 2005)

Yeah, or take this jihad back to the mullahs for an exchange/refund.......


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## CBH99 (15 May 2005)

The media no doubt plays a huge role in people's opinions, and it really sucks when the media spouts off information that MIGHT be true, and reports it as if it were actual fact.  They need to remember they have a huge influence on public opinion, and need to maintain a certain standard of professionalism and truth in their reporting.

However, there are enough rumours going around about Guantanamo Bay, Cuba - that would have me believe things aren't as peachy clean as the US government states.  And, not trying to fuel the fire - but if you believe everything the US government says, then your just a moron.  And no, Bruce Monkhouse, I'm not taking a cheap shot at the Americans - but there are enough rumours going around about Guantanamo Bay - reinforced by factual events that took place at Abu Ghaaib (sp??) - that would have me believe some things are going on there that wouldn't be approved of.

Its too bad stuff like this is even an issue.  Desecrate a Quran?  Pathetic.  Religious or not, anybody who desecrates a holy text from any culture is seriously lacking in respect.  I understand that the military intelligence guys might have to think of stressful situations, and awkward situations - to say the least - in order to get some information they may need.  But for the sake of their own humanity, don't go around desecrating Qurans and holy texts.

(Again, for all of you who build their argument on "Stop bashing the Americans" - I'm not bashing them.  But, I'm not naive enough to sit around thinking everything is squeaky clean and honourable at Guantanamo Bay, just because the US government says so).


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## jmackenzie_15 (15 May 2005)

You guys are so witty. Cudos.


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## Armymedic (16 May 2005)

jmackenzie_15 said:
			
		

> I have no doubt in my mind the prisoners at Guantanamo are being treated as rumored.



The editors in Newsweek didn't have a doubt either....they just lacked actual proof. And they also lacked the common sense not to print it until they had proof.



			
				CBH99 said:
			
		

> However, there are enough rumours going around about Guantanamo Bay, Cuba - that would have me believe things aren't as peachy clean as the US government states.   And, not trying to fuel the fire - but if you believe everything the US government says, then your just a moron.   And no, Bruce Monkhouse, I'm not taking a cheap shot at the Americans - but there are enough rumours going around about Guantanamo Bay - reinforced by factual events that took place at Abu Ghaaib (sp??) - that would have me believe some things are going on there that wouldn't be approved of.


And this is the kind of public opinion that Newsweek was counting on...enough people would believe that thier version of the truth was fact and cause a scandal. 
Instead thier reporting has inflamed an undelying religous fever, and cause people here to be injured and killed. 



> (Again, for all of you who build their argument on "Stop bashing the Americans" - I'm not bashing them.  But, I'm not naive enough to sit around thinking everything is squeaky clean and honourable at Guantanamo Bay, just because the US government says so).


While it would be foolish to completely believe as you stated, it would be equally naive to believe everything bad you heard and assume it is gospel as well....

If nothing else this Newsweek controversy highlights that well....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 May 2005)

Quotes from CBH99,
_However, there are enough rumours going around about Guantanamo Bay, Cuba _ 
_that would have me believe some things are going on there that wouldn't be approved of._

...and using that GREAT : theory I went surfing last night and found out that 30,000 Jewish people left the twin towers just an hour before the planes hit and, ...oh yea, Elvis isn't really dead. :blotto:, he's just laying back watching that compound interest.......

I mean there's enough rumours going around........


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## larry Strong (16 May 2005)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1116238425043_30/?hub=TopStories

oooop's


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 May 2005)

Any one, of any nationality, who were injured or killed [ family on thier behalf] should now go together on a class action suit against Newsweek, nothing like the smell of money to bring cultures together.


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 May 2005)

could you cut and paste the text?


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## Britney Spears (16 May 2005)

Let me clarify for a second here: Newsweek has not issued a retraction or admitted an error in reporting, they are merely saying that the facts are uncertain, and that they have no conclusive proof.  I see two possibilities, one, the fellow who wrote the original report wasn't expecting such a massive response and is issueing a pre-emptive CYA statement in the event that the allegations turn out to be false, or two, it's a Pentagon cover-up. I personally lean towards the former theory. Honestly, would any one of us Westerners have expected this kind of violent backlash? So he flushed a few pages of a book down the toilet, to us, it's a BOOK, property of the US DoD, who cares? 


Yes, I know(now) that the Qu'ran is not just a book but the literal word of Allah, I'm not allowed to read it on the can and all that, so leave me off the jihad list please..


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## jmackenzie_15 (16 May 2005)

Newspapers will print controversial and upsetting stories because itll create a buzz and theyll get more business.Theres no such thing as bad publicity.

Regardless, its far too late for apologies.All they needed was another excuse to hate the americans and they handed them one.
I read somewhere there were like 300 muslim clerics backing the holy war.If thats true, alot of work in a-stan just went down the toilet.


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## -rb (16 May 2005)

S_Baker said:
			
		

> Check out the middle of page 13 of this training document
> 
> http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/manualpart1_1.pdf
> 
> for some reason the link will not work from inside the post.   It is posted on the US department of Justice Website.   It comes from the UK, where it was found.



Thank you for that S_Baker, looks like I have some insightful reading to pass the time with. 



			
				CFL said:
			
		

> could you cut and paste the text?



Quoted text below...

UK/BM-12 TRANSLATION
*Principles of Military Organization:*
Military Organization has three main principles without which it
cannot be established.
1. Military Organization commander and advisory council
2. The soldiers (individualmembers)
3. A clearly defined strategy

*Military Organization Requirements:*
The Military Organization dictates a number of requirements to
assist it in confrontation and endurance. These are:
1. Forged documents and counterfeit currency
2. Apartments and hiding places
3. Communication means
4. Transportation means
5. Information
6. Arms and ammunition
7. Transport

*Missions Required of the Military Organization:*
The main mission for which the Military Organization is
responsible is: 
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with
an Islamic regime. 
Other missions consist of the following:
1. Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the
installations, and the neighbors.
2. Kidnaping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
3. Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4. Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
*5. Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate people against the enemy.*
6. Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality,
and sin; not a vital target.
7. Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital economic centers.
8. Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the cities.


For those who are interested, the manual S_Baker posted is part 1 in a 4 part series AQ training manual, I have compiled them all in to one pdf document..PM me for a copy of the complete version.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 May 2005)

Well it looks like they HAVE retracted the story.....
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/5406678.html

Newsweek Retracts Qur'an story 
Associated Press 
May 16, 2005

NEW YORK â â€ Newsweek magazine, under fire for publishing a story that led to deadly protests in Afghanistan, said Monday it was retracting its report that a military probe had found evidence of desecration of the Qur'an by U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay. 
Earlier Monday, presidential spokesman Scott McClellan had criticized Newsweek's initial response to the incident, saying it was "puzzling.''
Newsweek had reported in its issue dated May 9 that U.S. military investigators had found evidence that interrogators placed copies of Islam's holy book in washrooms and had flushed one down the toilet to get inmates to talk.

Newsweek acknowledged problems with the story and its editor, Mark Whitaker, apologized in an editor's note in this week's edition. The accusations spawned protests in Afghanistan that left 15 dead and scores injured.
Whitaker wrote in an editor's note that "We regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst.''
But after the White House criticized Newsweek's response to the story, Whitaker released a statement later Monday through a spokesman saying the magazine was retracting the story.
"Based on what we know now, we are retracting our original story that an internal military investigation had uncovered Qur'an abuse at Guantanamo Bay,'' Whitaker said


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## -rb (16 May 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well it looks like they HAVE retracted the story.....
> http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/5406678.html



And of course with their retraction everybody's happy now :. In addition to Bruce's link CNN has a bit more from the reaction of some muslims in Afghanistan...

But Muslims said they suspected that pressure from Washington was behind the magazine's climbdown, Reuters reported Monday.

"We will not be deceived by this," Islamic cleric Mullah Sadullah Abu Aman told Reuters in the northern Afghan province of Badakhshan.

"This is a decision by America to save itself. It comes because of American pressure. Even an ordinary illiterate peasant understands this and won't accept it." 

For full article... http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/16/newsweek.quran.intl/index.html

Stating the obvious but sadly, it seems the damage is done whether they (News_weak_ Magazine) have issued the retraction or not.

cheers.


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## Sergeant295 (16 May 2005)

You know, everyone is so quick to draw conculsions when it comes to the United States these days especially when it comes to foreign policy and military matters.  I for one am not.  As a duel US-Canadian citizin, someone who was raised for a great deal of my life in Canada, and someone serving in the US military I find it offensive.  

Canada is supposed to be a country of due process and when people, either in this Army.ca forum or elsewhere for that matter condem Americans for anything before hearing bothsides of the story I think many will agree with me that it offends the very principals that Canada holds dear.  Do I deny that there are some real nuts in America?  No, nor do I question wether they have found their way into the military as I have served with many of them.  However to condem the boys at Guantonamo Bay is wrong and I think everyone should stop for now, then when and if proof comes then you can cut them a new #$%&hole.  

I would also like to make the point that many people on this forum were offened with the New York Times collumist who blasted Canada in the paper several weeks ago.  You accused him of being a racist and every other bad name in the book and I do agree with you all.  However that being said I would like to say when you lump all of us Americans into one pile (in this case as prisoner abusors) you only further the points that are made in that article, mainly that Canada is too anti-American for its own good.  I for one know that whatever is said about each other when it comes down to it in the end Canada and the United States are there for each other no matter what, I just wish everyone on both sides would act like it. Also I wish Canadians would stop treating the Guantonamo Bay Holding Facility like they have nothing to do with it.  Have you all forgoten that JTF-2 memebers have sent a few boys there too?

To close I wouds also like to make the point that these claims of a Holy War are being made by Clereks that were known to be Anti-American from the very start, and perhaps this is just an excuse to wage a war that they have been seeking for a long time.  Do you really think that we would be having this conversation if some Clereks pissed on a Bible? Doubtful.  It would dismissed as their right to free expression or some other nonesense, as the new western way seems to be to coddle the rest of the world for fear of offending. 

Let me throw this question out:  Since everyone is so offended by these supposed acts at Guantonomo Bay, and working under the assumption that they are true will everyone still be offeneded if these acts maybe allowed interrigators to turn up information about a possible terrorist attack on Canada?  Or will they be suddenly heros? I think everyone needs to face the fact that we are all at war with terrorism and anyone reading this who had dealt with these people recently overseas (any Operation Apollo out there?) sometimes a hard line needs to be drawn.

To sum it all up I think that we should be less concerned with unsubstantiated rumors on CNN and focus on the real issues and that is that Afghanistan has become a much more dangerous place for all troops and civilians there.  My thoughts are with alll American, Canadian and Allied troops there.  They are doing a wonderful job, lets focus on that and leave the rumours until they turn to truth.


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## Britney Spears (16 May 2005)

Like pbi said, it's campaign season, that's all.

Here's an excerpt from a blog that I find fairly reasonable.

<a href=http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_05/006322.php>Washington Monthly</a>



> Anyway, let's get some things straight:
> 
> *      Newsweek's source blew it. But it was a source they had used before and they had no reason not to trust him.
> 
> ...


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## George Wallace (16 May 2005)

Sergeant295 said:
			
		

> To sum it all up I think that we should be less concerned with unsubstantiated rumors on CNN and focus on the real issues and that is that Afghanistan has become a much more dangerous place for all troops and civilians there.   My thoughts are with alll American, Canadian and Allied troops there.   They are doing a wonderful job, lets focus on that and leave the rumours until they turn to truth.



The unfortunate thing is that these "unsubstantiated rumours" on CNN and in Newsweek (neither one a Canadian News outlet) are costing people their lives.   You don't have to be American, Canadian, an American Basher or whatever to realize this.   Idiots in the Press, no matter what country they publish in, who spread inaccurate journalism should be held just as accountable as if they themselves had pulled the trigger, slit the throat, stoned, bombed or whatever - they should be held just as accountable for murder as the fanatic who takes their printed word as gospel and commits murder on that word alone.


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## Sergeant295 (16 May 2005)

George,

You say it best man.


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## Britney Spears (16 May 2005)

> Idiots in the Press, no matter what country they publish in, who spread inaccurate journalism should be held just as accountable as if they themselves had pulled the trigger, slit the throat, stoned, bombed or whatever - they should be held just as accountable for murder as the fanatic who takes their printed word as gospel and commits murder on that word alone.



Well in the civilized world, they already are, as per slander/defamation laws. In this case, I think the rioters and their clerics are responsible for the riots, not Newsweek.


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## Dare (17 May 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The unfortunate thing is that these "unsubstantiated rumours" on CNN and in Newsweek (neither one a Canadian News outlet) are costing people their lives.  You don't have to be American, Canadian, an American Basher or whatever to realize this.  Idiots in the Press, no matter what country they publish in, who spread inaccurate journalism should be held just as accountable as if they themselves had pulled the trigger, slit the throat, stoned, bombed or whatever - they should be held just as accountable for murder as the fanatic who takes their printed word as gospel and commits murder on that word alone.


While I rarely defend the media, I think I have to in this instance. It was not these rumours that directly cost people their lives. It was caused by illiterate fanatics fueled by various factions most notibly Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islami.. which was founded in Palestine, or "Jordanian-occupied East Jerusalem" as CNS news calls it.. very rarely are these "protests" or "uprisings" spontaneous or genuine. They are usually funded and organized. People often think terrorist groups are small and isolated sleeper cells, but they're usually quite large and almost a society unto themselves.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200505\FOR20050516a.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizb-ut-tahrir.htm

There's no doubt that they should have known better to get more sources for their research but nonetheless, it is those different factions and fanatics that caused the deaths, not a news report. I believe they are free to print whatever they want, their credibility is theirs to lose. Just because some nuts go off the handle because of what they print in a few sources on the other side of the planet does not mean the news staff should be tried for any degree of murder. Personally, I suspect (without any proof, don't try me for murder, thanks) that it's highly likely such interrogation tactics are used, even if unofficially or informally. If we were interrogating communists, I'd expect them to rip up the Communist manifesto too, or a Christian their bible.. sure, it's not very nice to rip up someone elses sacred cows, but it's also not very nice to plot mass murder either. I weigh on that. It's information retrieval, not a daycare centre. "Tantamount to torture", despite how it is often implied, still isn't torture. 

P.S. The link does not format properly, you'll have to cut and paste the line if you wish to see it.


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## Infanteer (17 May 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> sure, it's not very nice to rip up someone elses sacred cows, but it's also not very nice to plot mass murder either. I weigh on that. It's information retrieval, not a daycare centre. "Tantamount to torture", despite how it is often implied, still isn't torture.



Agree with you here, Dare - these people are in Gitmo for a reason....


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## George Wallace (18 May 2005)

Should we as Soldiers in a Combat Zone trust Journalists?  Have they proven themselves to be untrustworthy?  Will soldiers in a Combat Zone be tempted to direct the Press down an "Uncleared Route" in protest?

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20050518.shtml

It's not just Newsweek
Michelle Malkin (archive)


May 18, 2005 

If you want to hear an earful, ask an American soldier how he feels about our news media. You will invariably hear an outpouring of dismay and outrage over antagonistic and reckless reporting. I have stacks of letters and e-mails from soldiers and their families sharing those frustrations. During the Vietnam War, those sentiments would get packed away -- private hurts to be silently borne for decades. 

 But today the Internet has allowed soldiers on the front to disseminate their views -- breaking through the media's entrenched, anti-military bias -- in unprecedented ways. In the wake of Newsweek's publication of its unsourced, mayhem-inducing and now-retracted item about Koran desecration by U.S. military interrogators at Guantanamo Bay, a sergeant in Saudi Arabia immediately responded on a blog called The Anchoress (theanchoressonline.com):

  I have placed my life and the life of my fellow soldiers in danger in order to achieve a measure of the freedoms we enjoy at home for the Iraqi and Afghani people. As soldiers, we all understand that we may be asked to participate in wars (actions) that we (or our countrymen) don't agree with. The irresponsible journalism being practiced by organizations such as Newsweek, however, [is] just inexcusable. At this point, because of their actions and failure to follow up on a claim of that magnitude, they've set the process back in Afghanistan immensely . . . 

 I don't regret serving my country, not one bit, but to have everything I'm doing here undermined by irresponsible journalists leaves me disgusted and disappointed. 

 Military bloggers across the Web this week echoed the sergeant's disgust with American journalism. And it's not just Newsweek.

 It's the New York Times and CBS News and the overkill over abuses at Abu Ghraib prison. It's the Boston Globe publishing porn photos passed off by an anti-war city councilor as proof that American GIs were raping Iraqi women. 

 It's the constant editorial drumbeat of "quagmire, quagmire, quagmire." 

 It's the mainstream media's bogus reporting on the military's failure to stop purported "massive" looting of Iraqi antiquities. 

 It's the hyping of stories like the military's purported failure to stop looting of explosives at al Qa Qaa right before the 2004 presidential election -- stories that have since dropped off the face of the earth. 

 It's the persistent use of euphemisms -- "insurgents," "hostage-takers," "activists," "militants," "fighters" -- to describe the terrorist head-choppers and suicide bombers trying to kill American soldiers and civilians alike. It's the knee-jerk caricature of American generals as intolerant anachronisms. It's the portrayal of honest mistakes in battle as premeditated murders.

 It's the propagandistic rumor-mongering spread by sympathizers of Italy's Giuliana Sgrena and former CNN executive Eason Jordan about American soldiers targeting and/or murdering journalists. 

 It's the glorification of military deserters, who bask in the glow of unquestioning -- and largely uncorroborated -- print and broadcast profiles. 

 And it's the lesser-known insults, too, such as the fraudulent manipulation of Marine recruits by Harper's magazine. In March, the liberal publication plastered a photo of seven recruits at Parris Island, S.C., under the headline, "AWOL in America: When Desertion Is the Only Option." None of the recruits is a deserter. When some expressed outrage over the deception, the magazine initially shrugged.

  "We are decorating pages," sniffed Giulia Melucci, the magazine's vice president for public relations, to the St. Petersburg Times. 

 As Ralph Hansen, associate professor of journalism at West Virginia University and a rare member of academia with his head screwed on straight, observed: "Portraying honorable soldiers as deserters is clearly inappropriate. And I don't see any way Harper's could claim that they weren't portraying the young Marines as deserters. A cover is more than just art. I think that someone had a great idea for a cover illustration and forgot that he or she was dealing with images of real people."

 The members of our military are more than just an expedient means to a titillating magazine cover or juicy scoop or Peabody Award. Too often since the "War on Terror" was declared, eager Bush-bashing journalists have forgotten that the troops are real people who face real threats and real bloodshed as a consequence of loose lips and keyboards. 

 It's not just Newsweek that needs to learn that lesson.


Michelle Malkin is a syndicated columnist and maintains her weblog at michellemalkin.com

©2005 Creators Syndicate, Inc.


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## GGboy (18 May 2005)

Please: Malkin has a rather large ideological axe to grind and is painting the media coverage of Iraq and Afghanistan with a very large brush.
I'd be interested to hear the impressions of anyone who was on Op Athena of "The Media" because my understanding is that for the most part, the guys got along fairly well with the embedded reporters.
It's fine and good to rant about "The Media" as if it were a unified, monolithic entity, just as it's easy for the media to talk about "The Military" in the same way. Reporters are individuals, for good or ill, just as soldiers are. Seems to me the more personal contact there is between The Media and The Military, the more understanding develops on both sides. 
And from a CF perspective, the more positive or at least realistic media coverage results ...


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## Copper_Sunrise (26 May 2005)

Just updatig the post. I hope the guards at Guantanamo didn't do this because it doesn't help anyone out.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4581383.stm

*FBI records detail Koran claims*  

An inmate at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp accused US guards of flushing a Koran down the toilet back in 2002, declassified FBI documents reveal. 
The disclosure follows a row over a similar claim made in Newsweek, which the magazine was forced to retract. 

The Newsweek claims sparked protests across the Muslim world, and riots in Afghanistan that killed 15 people. 

The Pentagon said last week it had seen "no credible and specific allegations" about putting a Koran in a toilet. 

Newsweek last week apologised for, and then retracted its report, after saying it could not corroborate the story. 

The White House rounded on the magazine, saying its report had done "lasting damage" to the US image in the Muslim world. 

But the FBI documents made public on Wednesday, after a request from the human rights group American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), show that such allegations had been made at Guantanamo Bay. 

After interviewing a detainee, an unnamed FBI agent wrote on 1 August 2002: "Personally, he has nothing against the United States. The guards in the detention facility do not treat him well. Their behaviour is bad. 

"About five months ago, the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Koran in the toilet. 

"The guards dance around when the detainees are trying to pray. The guards still do these things." 

*Guantanamo 'gulag' * 

The ACLU said the documents showed the Pentagon was aware of such allegations being made at Guantanamo Bay long ago, but had repeatedly turned a blind eye to "mounting evidence of widespread abuse". 

The Pentagon did not immediately comment on the documents, but officials have said recently that various claims made by former detainees have been proved false. 

Officials say they have begun comparing detainee complaints to see if any are corroborated. 

ACLU lawyer Jameel Jaffer said: "Unfortunately, one thing we've learned over the last couple of years is that detainee statements about their treatment at Guantanamo and other detention centres sometimes have turned out to be more credible than US government statements." 

Other FBI documents released on Wednesday detailed further accusations, including one by a detainee who said a female interrogator wiped his face with her menstrual blood. 

Meanwhile Amnesty International urged the US to shut Guantanamo Bay, calling it "the gulag of our time". 

In a report the group said the US had undermined human rights across the world, by trying to "redefine and sanitise torture". 

The White House dismissed the report as "ridiculous and unsupported". 

Spokesman Scott McClellan said allegations of mistreatment were being investigated. 

More than 500 people are being held at Guantanamo Bay, the US naval base on Cuba, suspected of links to the al-Qaeda network. 

Some have been detained for more than three years, but have not been charged.


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## paracowboy (26 May 2005)

took the Law of Armed Conflict Course a few weeks ago. One of the instructors was a lovely woman from the ICRC. She's one of those Liberal-types who's BTDT. Her resume impressed the hell out of me, as did her courage (both physical and of convictions), her intellect, and her chassis (hey sue me, I like girls). She's been to Gitmo a few times, and so have a number of her compatriots. She says that nothing in Gitmo violates any part of the ICRC's views on how prisoners should be treated. The Red Cross says it's kosher, to me, it's kosher.
But then again, maybe the American gov't, the Illuminati, and the Free Masons are simply pressuring them, right?  :


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## Pikache (26 May 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> and her chassis (hey sue me, I like girls).



AHAHAHAH. That just made my day.

Sorry for hijacking a bit, but couldn't just let that past.


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## Armymedic (4 Jun 2005)

the weather isn't everything that is hotter now...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Jun 2005)

Stay safe, my friend.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Jun 2005)

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/WarOnTerrorism/2005/06/06/1074285-ap.html
  
Romania, Spain and the Netherlands may send extra troops to Afghanistan
    
BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - NATO is close to completing plans for a major strengthening of its peacekeeping force in Afghanistan during September's parliamentary elections, with Romania, Spain and the Netherlands providing hundreds of extra troops, diplomats said Monday. 
Each of the three countries is expected to send a battalion to bolster the NATO force. With additional air support and smaller contributions from other allies, that could add up to 3,000 soldiers to the existing force of 8,300. 

NATO defence ministers are scheduled to discuss the reinforcement plan at their regular mid-year meeting Thursday in Brussels. The deployment of the extra Spanish and Dutch troops depends on approval from parliaments in the two countries, said NATO diplomats, speaking on condition of anonymity. 
Afghanistan's parliamentary elections, set for Sept. 18, are seen as a key step toward the development of democratic institutions there, and the extra NATO troops will be needed to provide security for thousands of candidates and hundreds of polling stations. 

NATO took similar steps to boost its peacekeeping force during the presidential elections in October.


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## Armymedic (11 Jun 2005)

Thankfully, I am safely at home for HLTA.....

Unfortunately, it seems some of my new friends in the ETT working out at FOBs are not doing so well....
The province mentioned for those looking for a Cdn angle is just to the west of that the main road between Kabul, Ghazni and Quandahar.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/06/11/us_soldier_killed_3_hurt_in_ambush_in_afghanistan/

US soldier killed, 3 hurt in ambush in Afghanistan
Deadly attack is third in week
By Daniel Cooney, Associated Press   |   June 11, 2005

KABUL, Afghanistan -- An American soldier was killed and three US troops were wounded when insurgents ambushed a patrol yesterday in eastern Afghanistan, the third deadly attack on US forces in the border region in a week.

Seven militants were killed in fighting set off by the ambush of US-led coalition and Afghan forces in Paktika province, a US military statement said. The militants fled after the fighting and American forces deployed attack aircraft in pursuit.

Fighting in Paktika has killed five US troops in the past week. The province is next to the Pakistani border, and militants based in tribal regions on the other side of the mountainous frontier often cross into Afghanistan to launch attacks. Seventeen suspected Taliban militants were reported captured in the area Monday.

Two US soldiers wounded in yesterday's attack were taken to a nearby base for treatment, while the third was treated and returned to duty, the statement said.

''Our patrols of coalition and Afghan forces are relentless in the pursuit of the enemy," Army Brigadier General Jack Sterling said. ''We are deeply saddened by the loss of our soldier and will honor him by continuing to take the fight to the enemy."

The death brought to 149 the number of US military personnel killed in and around Afghanistan since the Taliban were driven from power in 2001.

Even though US military commanders express optimism about progress toward making Afghanistan secure, there has been a sharp rise in bombings, shootings, and other violence since winter's snow melted in mountain passes used by insurgents.

Security forces have hit back hard, killing more than 200 suspected militants since March, US and Afghan officials said.

In Rome yesterday, an Italian aid worker arrived home after being held hostage in Afghanistan for more than three weeks. Clementina Cantoni said she had been treated well, but she expressed concern for detainees still being held.

Cantoni, 32, was released Thursday in Kabul, the Afghan capital, where she had been abducted by armed men May 16. She was working for CARE International on a project helping Afghan widows and their families.

In Kabul, the Afghan government said four people detained because of alleged links to the kidnappers had been questioned and released.

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi was among those gathered at Ciampino military airport in Rome to greet Cantoni. She was taken to Rome's courthouse, where antiterrorism prosecutors questioned her.


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## Armymedic (13 Jun 2005)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1118657733253_134/?hub=World

Four U.S. troops injured in Afghan attack
Associated Press

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan â â€ An explosion near a U.S. military vehicle in southern Afghanistan on Monday wounded four American troops, a U.S. military spokesman said, in the latest in a series of bloody assaults on coalition forces. 

The vehicle was hit by the blast near the main southern city of Kandahar. A local Afghan police chief said it was a suicide assault. The U.S. military confirmed it was a bombing, but gave no further details. 

Spokesman Col. James Yonts told reporters in Kabul that the four wounded, one in a serious condition, were flown to a U.S. base in Kandahar for medical treatment. 

Gen. Salim Khan, the deputy police chief for Kandahar city, said a suicide bomber had rammed a car full of explosives into the U.S. vehicle. The head of the attacker was found near the site of the blast and it appeared to be that of an Arab, he said. 

"The U.S. vehicle was blown up in the suicide attack," Khan said. 

He said at least three American troops were killed, but in a statement, the U.S. military said no U.S. service members had died. 

An Associated Press reporter at the scene saw three American soldiers being carried on stretchers into a U.S. military helicopter. Two other U.S. helicopters hovered overhead, while dozens of Afghan and U.S. troops took up positions around the site. 

Troops blocked the highway where the attack happened. The road links Kandahar and the western city of Herat. Hundreds of Afghans who had been driving along the road looked on. 

Three other bombs were found hidden on roadsides around Kandahar on Monday morning, a government official in the city said on condition of anonymity. All were defused, he said. 

A bomb attack Sunday on an Afghan family's pickup truck just north of Kandahar killed a woman and wounded four others, including two children, said Khan, the deputy police chief. He said the attackers may have thought the four-wheel-drive vehicle belonged to the Afghan army as it was similar to ones the army uses. 

A purported Taliban spokesman, Mullah Latif Hakimi, said in a telephone call to AP that the group was responsible for Monday's bombing and that the suicide attacker was an Afghan. 

Hakimi often calls news organizations to claim responsibility for attacks on behalf of the Taliban. His information has sometimes proven untrue or exaggerated, and his exact tie to the group's leadership is unclear. 

The bombing follows an upsurge in attacks by Taliban-led rebels in recent weeks, which the government says marks an effort to sabotage legislative elections due in September. 

On June 1, a suspected al Qaeda suicide bomber killed 20 people at the funeral of an anti-Taliban cleric in Kandahar, one of the worst terror attacks here since the ouster of the Taliban in 2001. 

Five American troops also died in attacks earlier this month.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (13 Jun 2005)

Watching the ctv last night, I see there is a new secret logbook out of Gitmo that lists more dark secrets of the prisoner abuse. Although I don't condone abuse prisoners, the media has yet again made a huge issue out of quote:sleep depravation and dousing prisoners with cold water. Didn't the media learn its lesson from the bloodshed caused by the last unsubstantiated article on Koran abuse. Or maybee its that if they stir up the proverbial pot again, then they will get juicier stories than the heat wave in Ontario. 

The al-Kahtani case

Citing information obtained from secret logs, Time reports that prisoner Mohammed al-Kahtani -- a top al Qaeda suspect -- was made to bark like a dog and growl at pictures of terrorists.

The magazine reports that in 2002-03, interrogators also forced Kahtani to stand for prolonged periods, kept him awake by blasting pop music and pouring water on his head. They also made him urinate in his pants.

"Is it torture? That's a tough call?" said Greg Hartley, a former U.S. Army interrogator. "Is it dehumanizing? Absolutely it's dehumanizing."

Kahtani, a Saudi citizen, is suspected to have been an intended fifth hijacker on board United Airlines flight 93 on Sept. 11, 2001, said the Pentagon in a statement. Kahtani was denied entry into the U.S. in August 2001, and was captured on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border in 2002.

Reacting to the Time report, the Pentagon said Kahtani's interrogation was conducted by trained professionals. 

The Pentagon said al-Kahtani provided valuable logistical information on the Sept. 11 attacks and the means by which al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden evaded capture.

"The Department of Defence remains committed to the unequivocal standard of humane treatment for all detainees," the Pentagon said.

It also described the document cited in Time as a "compromised classified interrogation log," and said it notified appropriate congressional committees.

With a report from CTV's Joy Malbon


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## Armymedic (23 Jun 2005)

reports of large battle in southern Afghanistan.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/06/22/afghanistan.fighting/index.html

U.S. pounds Afghan site, 76 insurgents killed
Rebels, policeman killed; U.S. soldiers wounded

Thursday, June 23, 2005; Posted: 12:33 a.m. EDT (04:33 GMT) 

KABUL, Afghanistan -- American fighter planes bombarded a southern Afghanistan rebel hide-out with missiles and bombs, killing up to 76 insurgents in one of the deadliest single clashes since the Taliban's ouster in 2001.

At least 12 Afghan police and soldiers also died in the fighting Tuesday, with bodies littered across a rugged Afghan mountainside, and five U.S. troops were wounded. 

The surge in fighting has raised fears that an Iraq-style quagmire is developing here, just months ahead of key legislative elections.

Two American CH-47 helicopters were hit by small arms fire in the 11-hour battle. One made an emergency landing and was repaired, while the other made it back to a nearby base, said U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Jerry O'Hara on Wednesday.

O'Hara said 49 rebels had been killed, but Gen. Ayub Salangi, police chief for southern Kandahar province, said Afghan forces had recovered the bodies of 76 suspected insurgents from the battlefield on the border between Kandahar and Zabul provinces.

He said the fighting spread to other areas Wednesday, and there were unconfirmed reports of more dead elsewhere.

Gen. Salim Khan, commander of about 400 Afghan policemen involved in the fighting, described the battlefield:

"Their camps were decimated. Bodies lay everywhere. Heavy machine guns and AK-47s were scattered alongside blankets, kettles and food," he said. "Some of the Taliban were also killed in caves where they were hiding, and U.S. helicopters came and pounded them."

Khan said that hundreds of insurgents were in the mountains, and that his forces were spotting them before giving the information to U.S. officials on the ground, who called in air strikes. Many of the rebels have started fleeing the area, he said.

O'Hara said AC-130 gun ships, AH-64 Apache helicopters, A-10 attack aircraft and Harriers were "hammering enemy positions" and having a "devastating effect on their forces." Though the worst of the fighting had ended, U.S. and Afghan forces were pushing forward Wednesday with their hunt for insurgents, he said.

"We are not letting up on the enemy and will continue to pursue them until the fighting stops. Coalition and Afghan forces will continue to defeat these militants for as long as necessary to ensure the people of Afghanistan remain free of oppression and tyranny," he said.

O'Hara said the wounds of the five injured U.S. soldiers were not serious, and they had been evacuated to a base in the southern city of Kandahar. Their names were withheld pending notification of their families.

Five Afghan police officers and seven soldiers were killed, while three officers and three troops were wounded, Khan said.

Some 30 militants were captured, including two district rebel commanders, Khan said. Eight of the 30 were wounded.

Meanwhile, a U.S. Air Force U-2 spy plane crashed in an undisclosed location in southwest Asia while returning to its base from a mission in Afghanistan, U.S. Central Command said in a statement. The pilot was killed in the crash Tuesday night.

The death toll from this week's fighting appeared among the heaviest since U.S. planes pounded Taliban forces before the hard-line regime folded in late 2001. The last single battle of this magnitude was in August, when 70 suspected rebels were killed near the Pakistani border.

The new deaths bring to about 360 the number of suspected rebels killed since the start of a major surge in violence in March, when snows melted on mountain tracks used by the insurgents, according to U.S. and Afghan officials. In the same time, 29 U.S. troops, 38 Afghan police and soldiers have been killed, as well as 125 civilians.

The increase in fighting has reinforced concerns that the Afghan war is widening, rather than winding down. U.S. and Afghan officials warn things could get worse ahead of the parliamentary elections scheduled for September.

The officials have warned that foreign militants, backed up by networks channeling them money and arms, had come into Afghanistan to try to subvert the polls. Fears have been further compounded by a spate of ambushes, execution-style killings and kidnappings reminiscent Iraqi militants' tactics.

Afghan officials claim the infiltration of rebels from neighboring Pakistan has contributed to the rise in violence, and have urged Islamabad to crack down on militants there. On Sunday, Afghan intelligence agents scuttled a plot by three Pakistanis to assassinate Zalmay Khalilzad, the departing U.S. ambassador.


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## Franko (23 Jun 2005)

TANKS for the update Ash......

See you in August....is there a mixed mess? Care to hoist our 2 per day?

Regards


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## Jun (23 Jun 2005)

I should have a good time next week when I get on ground eh?
 :warstory:

Jun


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## pbi (23 Jun 2005)

It looks like Canadian soldiers are going to find themselves in a place much more dangerous than Kabul, and more dangerous than when I served there only a few months ago. While I believe we very much need to step up to the plate for this challenge (for a whole bunch of reasons...) I wish you all a safe tour and a speedy return. God bless, and remember who you are.  

Cheers


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## Armymedic (23 Jun 2005)

Franko said:
			
		

> TANKS for the update Ash......
> 
> See you in August....is there a mixed mess? Care to hoist our 2 per day?
> 
> Regards



Sorry Frank, chances are I won't even see you, living in a different camp and all. But they still have the jrs seperate from the officer sr ncos messes, so we can share a pop outside the Px.


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## Franko (24 Jun 2005)

Forgot about that Ash....I remember what camp you're working out of now.

Oh well.....perhapse the PX then?

Regards


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## McG (28 Jun 2005)

> American forces reassert control in a Taliban stronghold in Afghanistan
> Tomas Munita
> Canadian Press
> http://www.canada.com/news/world/story.html?id=41cc1688-9eaf-45bc-9278-26ab86801773
> ...


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## Franko (28 Jun 2005)

It's only going to get worse.

The big thing to remember is the Taliban are seasonal fighters.......

As soon as the snow starts to fly....they go to ground.

Regards


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (29 Jun 2005)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8391112/

NBC News and news services
Updated: 6:57 p.m. ET June 29, 2005
KABUL, Afghanistan - U.S. military officials said Wednesday they feared all 17 troops aboard a special operations helicopter were dead after hostile fire downed the craft and it slid or rolled into a rugged mountain ravine in eastern Afghanistan. 

If those aboard were confirmed killed, the crash would be the deadliest blow yet to American forces in Afghanistan, already grappling with an insurgency that is widening rather than winding down. 

The officials said they knew of no communications from the crash site, accessible only by foot. 

Stormy weather hampered rescue efforts after the MH-47 helicopter crashed Tuesday while ferrying in reinforcements for troops already on the ground pursuing al-Qaida militants near the border with Pakistan. 

The officials cited reports from the region that the helicopter struck or landed badly on the side of a mountain then went down into the ravine, suggesting little hope of survival. They said, however, they could not confirm the deaths, and spoke on condition of anonymity since rescue operations were still underway. 

Relative calm gives way to chaos
Only eight months ago, Afghan and U.S. officials were hailing a relatively peaceful presidential election here as a sign that the Taliban rebellion was finished. That bravado has been yet another casualty in a war some feel could escalate into a conflict on the scale of Iraq's. 

The loss of the helicopter follows three months of unprecedented fighting that has killed about 465 suspected insurgents, 43 Afghan police and soldiers, 125 civilians, and 29 U.S. troops. Afghan and U.S. officials have predicted the situation will deteriorate before legislative elections are held in September â â€ the next key step toward democracy after a quarter-century of war. 

The Taliban have stepped up attacks, and there are disturbing signs that foreign fighters â â€ including al-Qaida â â€ might be making a new push to sow mayhem. Afghan officials say the fighters have used the porous border with Pakistan to enter the country, and have called on the Pakistani government do more to stop them. 

Copter took direct fire
U.S. military spokesman Col. James Yonts said the helicopter was fired on as it was approaching a landing zone while rushing reinforcements to a battle in an area known to harbor â Å“terrorist organizations.â ? It flew on, but crashed about a little over a mile away at dusk, he said. 

â Å“The aircraft was taking indirect fire and direct fire from elements on the ground,â ? he said. 

Coalition and Afghan troops â Å“quickly moved into position around the crash to block any enemy movement toward or away from the site,â ? a U.S. military statement said. Yonts said fighting was continuing Wednesday. 

Beside the bad weather, recovery operations were also hampered by the rugged terrain of the remote crash site, reachable only by foot, officials said. The crash took place in the mountains near Asadabad, in eastern Kunar province. 

The helicopter was carrying forces into the area as part of Operation Red Wing against al-Qaida militants. 

Afghan Defense Minister Rahim Wardak told The Associated Press this month that intelligence indicates at least half a dozen al-Qaida agents had slipped into the country recently, and that two of them blew themselves up in car bombs. 

Movement was detected
Earlier, Pentagon sources told NBC News that aircraft using infrared surveillance had detected movement just after the crash but that due to darkness couldn't tell if those were survivors or the enemy. 

The 17 service members included eight Navy SEALs, the sources added. 

Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told senators Wednesday that the incident â Å“appears to be a shootdown of one of our special operations helicopters.â ? 

â Å“We think it was an RPG (rocket-propelled grenade), but are not 100 percentâ ? sure, Pace told a Senate committee during a hearing on his nomination to be chairman of the Joint Chiefs. â Å“And that will come out in time as we're able to get to the scene and the investigation required.â ? 

â Å“Our hearts go out to their families,â ? Pace said. 


The troops were on a mission against al-Qaida fighters when the helicopter went down in a mountainous region near Asadabad and close to the border with Pakistan.

Site secured
â Å“Coalition troops on the ground in this area came in contact with enemy forces and requested additional forces to be inserted into this operation,â ? Yonts said. â Å“That is why there was an aircraft, that is how it arrived on the battlefield.â ?

The U.S. military knew from its contacts with local leaders and residents that â Å“terrorist organizationsâ ? were operating in the area of the crash, Yonts said.

â Å“That did not come as a surprise to us, this area has been known to harbor those terrorist organizations or personnel,â ? he said.

Taliban claim
Provincial Gov. Asadullah Wafa told The AP the Taliban downed the aircraft with a rocket. He gave no other details.


Purported Taliban spokesman Mullah Latif Hakimi telephoned the AP before news of the crash was released and said the rebels shot the helicopter down.

He said the rebels filmed the attack and would release the video to the media. He also claimed that rebels killed seven U.S. soldiers in an attack in the same area, although U.S. spokeswomen Lt. Cindy Moore said no such attack had been made on an American convoy.

Hakimi often calls news organizations to claim responsibility for attacks on behalf of the Taliban. His information has sometimes proven untrue or exaggerated, and his exact connection to the group's leadership is unclear.

'Further our resolve'
â Å“This is a tragic event for all of us, and our hearts and prayers go out to the families, loved ones and men still fighting in the area,â ? said U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Greg Champion, deputy commanding general of Combined Joint Task Force-76. â Å“This incident will only further our resolve to defeat the enemies of peace.â ?

The crash was the second of a Chinook helicopter in Afghanistan this year. On April 6, 15 U.S. service members and three American civilians were killed when their chopper went down in a sandstorm while returning to the main U.S. base at Bagram.

The U.S. military has launched operations in several areas along the border with Pakistan. Those offensives target remnants of al-Qaida and the hard-line Taliban movement, as well as foreign fighters using high mountain passes to cross the largely uncontrolled border from Pakistan.

The violence has left much of Afghanistan off-limits to aid workers and has heightened concerns that the war here is escalating into a conflict on the scale of that in Iraq.


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## pappy (30 Jun 2005)

Semper Fi Lt. McGreevey, U.SN. (SEAL)

Lets have a moment of silence and remmber those who give thier all for the rest of us...
This one hits home, Mike was the nephew of a Marine friend of mine I've know for over almost 30 years, as far as I'm concered Mike was family.
It makes no difference if your for or againest the war or the politics behind it.  The results is this man and his men died to protect us all, God bless them all.
Below is an part of a email I recieve today, I share it with you all to remember those wonderful heros who no longer walk this earth.

"LT. MIKE McGREEVEY U.S.N. (SEAL)...
MIKE'S MH-47 CHINOOK HELICOPTER WAS SHOT DOWN YESTERDAY OVER THE MOUNTAINS IN EASTERN AFGHANISTAN WHILE CONDUCTING SPECIAL OPS, IN CONJUNCTION WITH OPERATION RED WING...MIKE LEAVES BEHIND HIS BEAUTIFUL BRIDE, LAURA, OF FIVE YEARS, AND HIS 14 MONTH OLD DAUGHTER, MOLLY.

MIKE WAS THE PLATOON COMMANDER FOR THE SEAL TEAM OPERATING IN EASTERN AFGHANISTAN SINCE APRIL...HE AND HIS TEAM HAD ONLY THREE WEEKS LEFT ON THIS TOUR BEFORE ROTATING BACK TO GERMANY FOR THEIR LAST TWO MONTHS OVERSEAS, THEN RETURNING BACK TO NORFOLK, VA...MIKE AND I WERE VERY CLOSE, AND I HAD A CHANCE TO SPEAK TO HIM THE NIGHT BEFORE HE LEFT NORFOLK...HE HAD ALWAYS TOLD ME THAT I WAS HIS INSPIRATION TO JOIN THE ARMED FORCES...MIKE GRADUATED WITH HONORS FROM THE NAVAL ACADEMY IN JUNE 1997, AND THEN GRADUATED AS THE HONORMAN FROM BUDS SCOL (SEAL) IN AUGUST 2000...I'LL BE FLYING BACK FOR THE FUNERAL ONCE WE KNOW THAT ALL THE GUY'S BODIES HAVE BEEN RECOVERED, AND RETURNED BACK TO CONUS...RESCUE/RETRIEVAL OPERATIONS ARE CURRENTLY HAMPERED BY BAD WEATHER, AND THE EXTREME LOCATION OF THE CRASH SITE...THE NAVY CASUALTY REPORTING TEAM HAS TOLD MIKE'S WIFE, LAURA, THAT THEY DON'T EXPECT TO FIND ANY SURVIVORS....MIKE DIED THE WAY HE WANTED...AS A WARRIOR WITH HIS BOOTS ON, HIS WEAPON AT THE READY, AND LEADING THE MEN HE WAS SO DEARLY PROUD OF...EACH OF THEM WERE HAND-PICKED FOR THIS MISSION.

MIKE, I WANT TO WISH YOU FAIR WINDS AND FOLLOWING SEAS....YOU WILL BE SADLY MISSED BY ALL"


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## Zartan (1 Jul 2005)




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## HItorMiss (1 Jul 2005)

Rest well Troops...


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## scm77 (2 Jul 2005)

Four Navy SEALS are still missing. :-\

July 01, 2005

*Searchers work amid hope that some SEALS survived crash*

By Sean D. Naylor
Times staff writer

There was guarded optimism this morning some or all of four members of a SEAL team missing in the mountains of Afghanistan could be alive.

A Pentagon official said today that â Å“radio transmissionsâ ? had given U.S. forces more hope than they had had the previous day that the missing SEALs had survived. He said he was not able to be more specific.

As first reported Thursday on Armytimes.com, a SEAL reconnaissance team remained missing after the crash Tuesday of a helicopter rushing in 16 special operations troops on a mission to rescue the commandos.

All 16 aboard the MH-47 Chinook were killed, apparently after the helicopter was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade. The dead included members of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment and members of SEAL Team 10.

Three days after the event, details were still murky and many questions remained unanswered.

The events that led to the tragedy began when a helicopter inserted a small reconnaissance element from SEAL Team 10, based at Little Creek, Va., into the mountains near Asadabad, in Kunar province. Intelligence had indicated a large concentration of enemy forces in the region, according to military sources.

The SEALs landed and hiked to a spot in rugged terrain where they established an observation post. Within several hours, Al Qaida or Taliban forces attacked the SEALs with small arms fire, and the SEALs called for a quick reaction force, or QRF, to help them, the sources said.

The QRF, consisting of at least two MH-47 Chinooks from the Army's 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, flew toward the beleaguered SEALs, sources said. It is not clear whether the SEALs on the ground were still at the observation post, or had moved in an attempt to evade their attackers. When the helicopters arrived in the vicinity of the observation post, more than an hour after the SEALs called for help, a military source said, one of the Chinooks was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade.

the pilots of a second aircraft on the mission saw and reported that their sister ship had been hit by an RPG, said Marine Lt. Gen. James Conway, director of operations on the Joint Staff, in a June 30 Pentagon press conference.

The Chinook was fired on as it approached its landing zone at dusk, Col. Jim Yonts, spokesman for the U.S. military operation in Afghanistan, told the Associated Press. The aircraft flew on but crashed about a mile away, he said. If Yonts' account is accurate, that would indicate that the SEALs had not been picked up.

The stricken Chinook, from the 160th's 3rd Battalion, stationed at Hunter Army Airfield, Ga., either crashed into or tried to land on a mountainside, but rolled down the steep slope into a ravine, according to military officials.

â Å“We were right in that valley,â ? said an Army aviation officer who was previously deployed to Afghanistan. â Å“It's very steep and it's unforgiving terrain.â ?

A Predator unmanned aerial vehicle captured images of movement around the crash site and infrared strobes of the type U.S. special operators use in emergencies, a military source said. â Å“There was definitely movement around the aircraft,â ? the source said.

The Washington Post reported that the Predator also crashed or was shot down.

In addition, U.S. forces detected a PRC-112 survival radio beacon emitting from the vicinity of the helicopter, the military source said. The beacon appeared to be moving. â Å“The last location was a good distance away from the crash,â ? he said.

By June 30, U.S. forces had secured the crash site and recovered â Å“all 16 bodies of those servicemen who were on board the MH-47 helicopter that crashed,â ? Conway said.

As part of the U.S. military rescue operation, Marines established â Å“blocking positionsâ ? to prevent enemy forces from reaching the site, a Pentagon official said. Rangers secured the crash site itself, he added.

The 16 casualties aboard the aircraft included eight members of SEAL Team 10 and the Chinook's eight-man crew, according to the Pentagon official. However, there were still four men â Å“unaccounted for,â ? the official said â â€œ â Å“the original four that were in trouble.â ?

Conway was evasive on this in the June 30 press conference. When asked in the press conference whether any other troops had been lost in the operation, Conway replied: â Å“No. At this point, not that we're aware of.â ? But, he added shortly thereafter, â Å“We don't have full accountability.â ? Pressed to explain what he meant by that, Conway declined to be more specific, other than to say, â Å“We do not have any people classified as missing at this point.â ?

But by the next day U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. Jerry O'Hara acknowledged that some U.S. service members were missing, and U.S. forces were using â Å“every available assetâ ? to search for them. â Å“Until we find our guys, they are still listed as unaccounted for and everything we got in that area is oriented on finding the missing men,â ? he said. He declined to identify the missing men or say how many they were.

The Chinook is the third MH-47 lost by the 160th since the September 11, 2001 attacks. One crashed at sea off the Philippines Feb. 22, 2002, and another was shot down March 4, 2002, during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shahikot valley.

The latter episode also featured an MH-47 full of special operations troops attempting to come to the rescue of a SEAL reconnaissance element. In that case, the SEALs had attempted to land on the top of the 10,469-foot Takur Ghar mountain, the most dominant piece of terrain on the battlefield, only to find it was already occupied by Al Qaida forces, who fired on the helicopter. One of the SEALs fell out of the badly damaged helicopter as it flew away. His teammates returned to the mountain on another Chinook to search for him, but were also taken under fire and forced to seek cover. When a third Chinook flew to the top of the mountain full of Rangers, it was shot down.

Seven special operations troops were killed in the battle.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-948742.php
------------------
Let's hope they make it out alive.


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## McG (2 Jul 2005)

> *U.S. soldiers missing in Afghanistan*
> New fighting threatens peace progress
> The Associated Press
> (Printed: Edmonton Journal, 02 Jul 05)
> ...


http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/index.html


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Jul 2005)

Franko said:
			
		

> See you in August....is there a mixed mess? Care to hoist our 2 per day?



Franko,

We are going dry on 1 Sep (basically once Roto 3 has cleared AStan).  Messes will be dry.  Commanders can still request permission to serve beer when it is appropriate - and will be allowed to do so without cards etc.  

Kandahar will be dry from the get go, and will remain so through put the tour.

Dave


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Jul 2005)

its unfortunate that when the snow comes and they go to ground that we don't seek them out.


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## tomahawk6 (3 Jul 2005)

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Jul/02/ln/ln03p.html

Profiles of ten of those killed in the crash.


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## tomahawk6 (3 Jul 2005)

One of the missing SEAL's has been recovered. Hope for the others remains high.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/07/03/afghan.missing/index.html


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## McG (3 Jul 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4640603.stm


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## pappy (5 Jul 2005)

2 Navy SEALS Found Dead in Afghanistan
By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer
59 minutes ago

KABUL, Afghanistan - Two Navy SEALS missing in Afghanistan have been found dead, a senior U.S. defense official said Monday night. Another SEAL was rescued on Sat Gourday, and the fate of a fourth SEAL was unknown. The official who confirmed the recovery of the two bodies spoke on condition of anonymity because of the ongoing effort to account for the missing U.S. servicemen in Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, an American airstrike in Afghanistan's rugged eastern mountains killed 17 civilians, including women and children, an Afghan official said Monday. The U.S. military confirmed civilian deaths but said the numbers were unclear.

An initial airstrike destroyed a house, and as villagers gathered to look at the damage, a U.S. warplane dropped a second bomb on the same target, Kunar provincial Gov. Asadullah Wafa told The Associated Press.

The team of SEALS was reported missing last Tuesday in Kunar province. A rescue effort the same day ended in tragedy when the transport helicopter seeking to extract the team was shot down, killing 16 troops aboard.

The serviceman rescued on Saturday had taken shelter in an Afghan village elder's home in the province before American forces were notified of his location and picked him up, Wafa said.

Earlier, Wafa said a second missing service member had been located in his province. His information came from Afghan intelligence sources, he said. But a senior Defense Department official in Washington said a second Navy SEAL had not been found.

A purported Taliban spokesman, Mullah Latif Hakimi, claimed last week that militants had captured one team member. He said the "high-ranking American" was caught in the area where the helicopter went down.

Hakimi, who also claimed insurgents shot down the helicopter, often calls news organizations to take responsibility for attacks, and the information frequently proves exaggerated or untrue. His exact tie to the Taliban leadership is unclear.

U.S. officials said they had no evidence indicating any service members had been taken into captivity.

The Navy SEAL rescued from Kunar province was being evaluated Monday, officials said. He was in stable condition and receiving medical treatment at the main U.S. base at Bagram.

An unprecedented spate of rebel attacks across the country have left about 700 people dead and threatened to sabotage three years of progress toward peace. Afghan officials insist the violence will not disrupt landmark legislative elections slated for September.

The U.S. airstrike came Friday in the same province where the transport helicopter was downed.

The military said the attack was carried out "with precision-guided munitions that resulted in the deaths of an unknown number of enemy terrorists and noncombatants."

"The targeted compound was a known operating base for terrorist attacks in Kunar province as well as a base for a medium-level terrorist leader," it said. "Battle damage assessment is currently ongoing."

The statement added U.S. forces "regret the loss of innocent lives and follow stringent rules of engagement specifically to ensure that noncombatants are safeguarded. However, when enemy forces move their families into the locations where they conduct terrorist operations, they put these innocent civilians at risk."

Wafa said it was unclear who was killed in the initial attack in the tiny village of Chechal. "Maybe some militants were killed, but I don't know," he said. "The 17 people were killed in the second bombing."

AP Military Writer Robert Burns contributed to this report from Washington.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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## Franko (7 Jul 2005)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Franko,
> 
> We are going dry on 1 Sep (basically once Roto 3 has cleared AStan).   Messes will be dry.   Commanders can still request permission to serve beer when it is appropriate - and will be allowed to do so without cards etc.
> 
> ...



 :crybaby:   .....just kidding.   



Oh well....I'm not that heavy of a drinker anyways...YOU of all people should know that.

Geesh...I didn't drink for most of Roto 13...unless I was on R&R or HLTA.   :blotto:

Regards


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