# A minor question about the rules surrounding timings.



## NoIdentifier (25 Aug 2013)

In basic I was trained to be on time, not early and definitely not late. So it wouldn't be too surprising to know that I know exactly how long it takes me to bike to work, at varying speeds, and also how long it would take to walk in the event of a bike breakdown. 

However, this attitude of mine simply does not fly anymore, it seems. Despite showing up on time, slightly early, every day and ready to go instantly...(If I had to prepare before work I would show up in order to do so, before work started) I have found myself in a bit of trouble.

Upon showing up for a recent event, to see that it started earlier than the timing I was given, I was pulled aside and asked why I was late. I told the person that I was not late and I am actually a few minutes early for the timing given to me. I, of course, found myself in quite a bit of trouble and extra duties.

So my question is this: can you actually be in trouble for not being early _ENOUGH_ to a given timing? Is it merely up to your bosses judgement to determine how early one must be in order to punish them? 

Now, to finish with this. The situation is obviously very minor. I'm not angry or surprised, just curious. I will simply do my duties and aim to show up much earlier than the given timings for the future.


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## UnwiseCritic (25 Aug 2013)

Honestly it's difficult to answer, we don't know your history with timings or the situation. 

In theory if what your saying is true, it's just another example of poor leadership. However I've never heard of something like this happening before. Nor do I know what good any answer on here will do for you.


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## Jager (25 Aug 2013)

Assuming that you're post is 100% truthful and you don't have a history with being late. Then this appears to be an example of poor leadership or failure to pass on information to you. If a timing is 0730, then you are late as of 0730, not 0725.


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## cupper (25 Aug 2013)

Please clarify the situation. 

Were you given the wrong timing? 

Or was the timing changed and you were not informed?

Or was the timing you were given correct, but the event kicked off earlier than it was supposed to?

And, were you ready to carry out the tasking at either the given / correct time? 

Regardless of the situation, as was previously stated, you are late only if you are not where you are supposed to be ready to do or doing what you are supposed to do, at the time given. Unless you were directed to be there x minutes early, you are only late if you arrive past the given time, AND / OR are not ready to perform the tasking at that time.


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## chrisf (25 Aug 2013)

You showed up when you were told to show up.

If you were told wrong, or the timing changed and you weren't told, and somone expected you to be able to read minds, it's really their fault they're disapointed.


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## Franko (25 Aug 2013)

A rule of thumb I learned early in my career...show up 15 minutes early for all timings.

It not only allows you to have a bit of wiggle room if there's traffic, but when you do get there, you have time to sort out kit or your dress. It also gets you into the habit of being early for orders, which is a good thing later on in your career.

Some units I've been in over the years had that as its SOP and it works well when employed properly. When morons get involved, it can run amock. A timing from an OC of 0700 can turn into 0615 if each supervisor puts their spin on it, when the intent of the OC was seeing everyone being there at 0645 and the planned activity kicking off at 0700.

Regards


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## Tetragrammaton (25 Aug 2013)

Based on my knowledge of the HBO series "Band of Brothers", you can face disciplinary action for failure to meet a timing of which you were unaware. However, you may be able to formally present a defense at a later time.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMoFlaEcKoM


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Aug 2013)

Tetragrammaton said:
			
		

> Based on my knowledge of the HBO series "Band of Brothers", you can face disciplinary action for failure to meet a timing of which you were unaware. However, you may be able to formally present a defense at a later time.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMoFlaEcKoM



Are you serious? It's a movie, and not even the same military or time frame.

Lanes. They are there for a reason.

Stay in them.

---Staff---


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## Tetragrammaton (25 Aug 2013)

Seen.


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## Franko (25 Aug 2013)

:rofl:

Funniest piece of advice EVER!

Regards


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## NoIdentifier (25 Aug 2013)

Unfortunately I don't know much about our rules and where they are kept, but would there be a spot, somewhere, in our rules that would specifically mention this sort of issue?


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## George Wallace (25 Aug 2013)

NoIdentifier said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I don't know much about our rules and where they are kept, but would there be a spot, somewhere, in our rules that would specifically mention this sort of issue?



It is proper etiquette to show early for any appointment.  It does not matter if it is military or civilian timings that are given, "fashionably late" is a negative reflection on your person.  Perhaps you have heard of "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior  "?

If you want a military reference, perhaps this will do:  " ARRIVE fifteen minutes prior to an 'O' Group so that you can copy the TRACE."


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## Teager (25 Aug 2013)

An easy way to know if you were late or not is: Was everyone else there before you? Or did the majority of people arrive the same time as you?

If you arrived before or at the same time as most others did did anyone else get spoken too?

If it is the same person that keeps speaking to you about timings maybe ask that person for the timings in writing and as soon as you arrive inform them that you have arrived.


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## Towards_the_gap (25 Aug 2013)

If everyone else was on time and you were still late you either have some selfish comrades or you may be slightly socially handicapped in some way or form. ;D


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## Haggis (25 Aug 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> If everyone else was on time and you were still late you either have some selfish comrades or you may be slightly socially handicapped in some way or form. ;D



Ouch!!!!


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## PAdm (26 Aug 2013)

Life became easier when I realized I was never late when I arrived with the boss.   The down side was I had to be with the boss....

I agree with the wisdom already provided - I always arrive early. It gives me time to find the new meeting room no one told me about; or to chat with folks prior to the event; or review any notes; or to simply demonstrate that I read the info/order/meeting request/etc and am ready to participate. I am usually 10 min early. 

WRT your case, extras are a right of passage and gives bragging rights, especially when not deserved. While you may be correct, your call if you want to pick this as a battle. If I had a dollar for every time I have apologized for something I never even did wrong...


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## kratz (26 Aug 2013)

NoIdentifier said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I don't know much about our rules and where they are kept, but would there be a spot, somewhere, in our rules that would specifically mention this sort of issue?



Adjust your thinking when asking your question.

Civy side, you are paid per hour on the clock. So showing up on time is appropriate.

Reserve / military side, you are paid for half a day = 6 hours or less (or full day = 6 hours or more),
so what harm is there is showing up 5min, 10min, 30min early? You are still paid to be there and ready to work.


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## OldSolduer (26 Aug 2013)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> A rule of thumb I learned early in my career...show up 15 minutes early for all timings.
> 
> It not only allows you to have a bit of wiggle room if there's traffic, but when you do get there, you have time to sort out kit or your dress. It also gets you into the habit of being early for orders, which is a good thing later on in your career.
> 
> ...



A wise man you are, young Jedi.

In the Army only can you be late if you are on time.


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## FJAG (26 Aug 2013)

Am I the only one with a different view here?

Assuming that the initial representation given is accurate, then in my view the NCM doing the strip tearing is way out of line.

I agree with showing up ten (or fifteen) minutes before an O Gp to mark your map but that's not showing up early; it's showing up on time to do the job that you need to have done before the O Gp starts. 

In the past we used to show up a few  minutes early because often people's watches kept different time and you didn't want to get ripped for having a slow watch -- nowadays with cellphones with networked timings that rarely happens.

IMHO to show up early just in case some trigger happy NCM wants to start early is bull and it would be very unfair for him to rip a subordinate for not reading his mind. If he wants the flexibility to start early then set an earlier time and let everyone know. 

I think its good practice to come a little early for things but for an NCM to award "extras" in these circumstances (again, if accurate) is a failure in leadership.

:slapfight:


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## George Wallace (26 Aug 2013)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Am I the only one with a different view here?
> 
> Assuming that the initial representation given is accurate, then in my view the NCM doing the strip tearing is way out of line.



No you aren't.  We have been addressing the matter of arriving early as a protocol or part of etiquette.  If indeed the OP story is true and they were early, or even on time, then the NCM doing the "strip tearing" is definitely out of line and the OP was wronged.


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## DAA (26 Aug 2013)

Yup, got extra's myself for being late for a 0730 Bty Comd's morning Pde.  I showed up at 0720, cost me 5 extras and I learned the age old lesson of "15 minutes early for Bty Comds Pde means be 15 minutes earlier for Tp WO's pde."  So "15 + 15 = always show up 30 minutes prior".  Unless of course it's an Air Force event, in which they "really really" mean be there 15 minutes prior to the anointed time.


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## JorgSlice (26 Aug 2013)

You guys need to step it up.

I just don't leave. I sleep hidden in dark corner nobody knows about, fully dressed and ready to go. No chance of ever being late.

Boss always wonders why I'm at work way before the building is even unlocked. 

 ;D


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## FJAG (26 Aug 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Yup, got extra's myself for being late for a 0730 Bty Comd's morning Pde.  I showed up at 0720, cost me 5 extras and I learned the age old lesson of "15 minutes early for Bty Comds Pde means be 15 minutes earlier for Tp WO's pde."  So "15 + 15 = always show up 30 minutes prior".  Unless of course it's an Air Force event, in which they "really really" mean be there 15 minutes prior to the anointed time.



That's the way its been since Christ was a lance jack. The point though was we were all told by the TSM to be there at 0700 and if we were there at that exact minute then we were good to go as far as the TSM was concerned.

My problem with the whole thing is that the supervisor here seemed to have arbitrarily changed the time without notice to this troop. There should have been no repercussions to the trooper.


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## Franko (26 Aug 2013)

FJAG said:
			
		

> My problem with the whole thing is that the supervisor here seemed to have arbitrarily changed the time without notice to this troop. There should have been no repercussions to the trooper.



Well, we only have one third of the story, the other two being the NCO's and the truth.

Regards


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## DAA (26 Aug 2013)

FJAG said:
			
		

> That's the way its been since Christ was a lance jack. The point though was we were all told by the TSM to be there at 0700 and if we were there at that exact minute then we were good to go as far as the TSM was concerned.
> My problem with the whole thing is that the supervisor here seemed to have arbitrarily changed the time without notice to this troop. There should have been no repercussions to the trooper.



You're right, that's the way it has always been.  So if my TSM/BSM/SSM told me to be there for 0700, then I definitely would have been there at 0630, just to make sure I wasn't the guy getting jacked and extra's on top of that for being late in someone's mind.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Aug 2013)

Punishing someone for obeying a lawful order who didn't pay attention to a suggested form of etiquette seems wrong.

If a timing is 7 and you want soldiers there 15 minutes beforehand then say be here 15 minutes before hand. Then it's a lawful order.


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## PAdm (27 Aug 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Unless of course it's an Air Force event, in which they "really really" mean be there 15 minutes prior to the anointed time.



That would be 15ish minutes early for an e.g. 0800ish meeting.  That's we never charge people - hard to nail down definite timings.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Aug 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Unless of course it's an Air Force event, in which they "really really" mean be there 15 minutes prior to the anointed time.



Or to be there at the actual time given, so you don't start burning up your crew day "for no good reason"  .


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## OldSolduer (27 Aug 2013)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> Well, we only have one third of the story, the other two being the NCO's and the truth.
> 
> Regards



A good Jedi you will be young Nerf..... ;D


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## ModlrMike (27 Aug 2013)

"Five minutes early to mark your map" comes to mind here.


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## old fart (27 Aug 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> "Five minutes early to mark your map" comes to mind here.



For a routine timing....the five minutes before "rule" is what I live by and expect.....this 15 minute before horsecr_p is just that...You're only officially late when you fail to make the timing ordered.....but missing the "five mins before" would receive my attention!

Not including a readiness to receive orders in this.....but again, you have a personal responsibility to be ready to the best of your ability.

There's 5 mins I won't get back....


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## Franko (27 Aug 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> "Five minutes early to mark your map" comes to mind here.



The traces I deal with on a regular basis a measly 5 minutes wouldn't even scratch the surface, even if you took it down in the proper priority. You might get a third of it copied if your very fast, hence the 15 minute mantra beaten into all Armd troops.

If 5 minutes works for you, have at 'er.


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## Towards_the_gap (27 Aug 2013)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> The traces I deal with on a regular basis a measly 5 minutes wouldn't even scratch the surface, even if you took it down in the proper priority. You might get a third of it copied if your very fast, hence the 15 minute mantra beaten into all Armd troops.
> 
> If 5 minutes works for you, have at 'er.



That could inspire a whole new conversation on our OPP and whether tis better to have traces that require a master's in Egyptology to decipher or is a big red arrow in crayola labelled 'bad dudes' sufficient to signal the commanders intent!


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## George Wallace (27 Aug 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> That could inspire a whole new conversation on our OPP and whether tis better to have traces that require a master's in Egyptology to decipher or is a big red arrow in crayola labelled 'bad dudes' sufficient to signal the commanders intent!



Obviously you don't believe in "Control measures".  Report Lines, Boundaries, Contact Points, Phase Lines, Objectives, Secondary Objectives, etc.


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## Maxadia (27 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Obviously you don't believe in "Control measures".  Report Lines, Boundaries, Contact Points, Phase Lines, Objectives, Secondary Objectives, etc.



You mean there's more to the CF than just point and shoot?  ???


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## George Wallace (27 Aug 2013)

You mean like..."Just go over there."   ???


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## Towards_the_gap (27 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Obviously you don't believe in "Control measures".  Report Lines, Boundaries, Contact Points, Phase Lines, Objectives, Secondary Objectives, etc.



2 up, 1 in reserve, bags of smoke!!!

 ;D


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## Jarnhamar (27 Aug 2013)

Firebase opens fire 5 minutes prior to the timing given?


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Aug 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Firebase opens fire 5 minutes prior to the timing given?



Sure that's not 15 minutes.

Otherwise someone is bound to be late ;D


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## Kat Stevens (27 Aug 2013)

Yeah, it's sucks when friendly arty rounds (is there really such thing???) arrive late to the party.


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## George Wallace (27 Aug 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's sucks when friendly arty rounds (is there really such thing???) arrive late to the party.



It also really sucks when they cease firing late to the party......Really messes up crossing the LOD.    ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Aug 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Firebase opens fire 5 minutes prior to the timing given?



Nice one!!


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## Towards_the_gap (28 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It also really sucks when they cease firing late to the party......Really messes up crossing the LOD.    ;D



Meh...keeps the boys on their toes!  ;D


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## Franko (28 Aug 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> That could inspire a whole new conversation on our OPP and whether tis better to have traces that require a master's in Egyptology to decipher or is a big red arrow in crayola labelled 'bad dudes' sufficient to signal the commanders intent!



That's why you show up 15 minutes prior to orders.....to ask questions about the trace as you take it down.

This ain't rocket surgery.


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## Towards_the_gap (29 Aug 2013)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> That's why you show up 15 minutes prior to orders.....to ask questions about the trace as you take it down.
> 
> This ain't rocket surgery.



Obviously.

But there were times when, in an O group with a trace that looked like some sort of post-modernist painting, I sat and wondered 'hmm, I wonder if the Taliban have the same thing going on in Quetta right now, with little 'DISRUPT' 'BLOCK' 'SCREEN' etc symbols on a map'. I came to the conclusion that they didn't, and probably to no great detriment to their ability either.

But there is great danger of this becoming a de-rail, so I'll get back on track. To the OP: confirm your timings and then make sure you are 15mins before them. This should keep you out of ca-ca.


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## George Wallace (29 Aug 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Obviously.
> 
> But there were times when, in an O group with a trace that looked like some sort of post-modernist painting, I sat and wondered 'hmm, I wonder if the Taliban have the same thing going on in Quetta right now, with little 'DISRUPT' 'BLOCK' 'SCREEN' etc symbols on a map'. I came to the conclusion that they didn't, and probably to no great detriment to their ability either.



At the same time they had no concerns for safety measures, etc.  If they died in combat, they would be martyrs and go to Heaven to collect their 70 virgins.  We have different social values than they who worship death in the destruction of 'non-believers'.   For the most part they were also fighting on "their turf" so needed less coordination.  'Hit and run' tactics are fairly simple.  Concentrated attacks less so.  Apples and oranges.


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## Pusser (29 Aug 2013)

Much advice on this thread has been given on the merits of being five, ten, 15, 20, etc minutes early for an appointed time.  And it's all very good advice.  However, in my view, none of this should ever be construed as a requirement.  The requirement is to be at the appointed time and place, ready to go.  If it takes you five minutes to prepare upon arrival, then you should arrive five minutes early.  If it takes you 50 minutes to prepare, then you should arrive 50 minutes early.  It really should be up to the individual.  If a leader wants people to arrive at a specific point before a scheduled timing, then that point should become the scheduled timing.  We make enough demands on people's time that we shouldn't be further jerking folks around with pseudo-requirements.  In short, if you want me there at 0750, then tell me to be there at 0750.  Don't tell me to be there at 0800 and expect me to arrive ten minutes early.  That seems fair, doesn't it?


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## Jacky Tar (29 Aug 2013)

Pusser hit it on the head. "Ready to go". Yes, techically, coming over the brow at 0749:59 you're not adrift, but you're not ready to work. The phrase "leave expires onboard at 0750" implies that the working day begins then. Engineering watch being told to be onboard for 0530 flashup means, to me, onboard, in uniform, not in the heads taking a dump, not in the cave getting coffee,  but in the MCR, ready to go.

OP, you don't mention whether you were on time in the sense of walking through the door on the dot, or in the sense of being ready in all respects, so I'll assume you were. But if you weren't, that's probably why your superior ripped you a new one, and I'd agree with him.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Aug 2013)

Well, the question might have been minor, but the answer process sure hasn't been. :



			
				Jacky Tar said:
			
		

> Pusser hit it on the head. "Ready to go". Yes, techically, coming over the brow at 0749:59 you're not adrift, but you're not ready to work. The phrase "leave expires onboard at 0750" implies that the working day begins then. Engineering watch being told to be onboard for 0530 flashup means, to me, onboard, in uniform, not in the heads taking a dump, not in the cave getting coffee,  but in the MCR, ready to go.
> 
> OP, you don't mention whether you were on time in the sense of walking through the door on the dot, or in the sense of being ready in all respects, so I'll assume you were. But if you weren't, that's probably why your superior ripped you a new one, and I'd agree with him.



That I can get onboard with (see what I did there?).

If your told the parade starts at 07:00, you better not be strolling through the door, expecting to slip into the ranks at 06:55.

It's too bad the OP never came back to fully clarify the circumstances. In fact, they haven't been here to even read the discussion, since posting their question.

Although I would not tend to side with them until I heard the other side(s).


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## Wolseleydog (31 Aug 2013)

Just as an aside, it was to control the tendency of each level of command tacking on their own bit of lead time that we invented the phrase "NO MOVE BEFORE."


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## OldSolduer (1 Sep 2013)

Wolseleydog said:
			
		

> Just as an aside, it was to control the tendency of each level of command tacking on their own bit of lead time that we invented the phrase "NO MOVE BEFORE."



Back in the "olden days" we used to have bn pde at 0730, which necessitated a coy pde at 0720, which necessitated a pl pde at 0710....see where I'm going with this?


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## 392 (1 Sep 2013)

NoIdentifier said:
			
		

> Upon showing up for a recent event, to see that it started earlier than the timing I was given, I was pulled aside and asked why I was late. I told the person that I was not late and I am actually a few minutes early for the timing given to me. I, of course, found myself in quite a bit of trouble and extra duties.




Awww......look at my little Johnny, he's the ONLY one in step   


Sounds to me like the everyone else was on time - not a case of the varying levels of the CoC backing timings up for varying levels of inspections / map markings / etc etc.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Sep 2013)

Wolseleydog said:
			
		

> Just as an aside, it was to control the tendency of each level of command tacking on their own bit of lead time that we invented the phrase "NO MOVE BEFORE."



That's an interesting hypothesis. Got a reference for it?


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## Old Sweat (1 Sep 2013)

I suggest "NO MOVE BEFORE" has more to do with tactical and road space control than parade timings.


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## Journeyman (1 Sep 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I suggest "NO MOVE BEFORE" has more to do with tactical and road space control than parade timings.



       :nod:


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Sep 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I suggest "NO MOVE BEFORE" has more to do with tactical and road space control than parade timings.



That's where I was heading, but thought I'd try that 'politeness' thing for a change.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Sep 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's where I was heading, but thought I'd try that 'politeness' thing for a change.



Nope......stay with your strong suit.... :-*


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## cupper (1 Sep 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's where I was heading, but thought I'd try that 'politeness' thing for a change.



Was it painful?

I'll bet it hurt like a Son of a ....


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