# Russian vets of Afghan war pity Canada



## GAP (28 Oct 2006)

Russian vets of Afghan war pity Canada
Red Army finally abandoned fight, 'it is impossible to win there' 
Sat Oct 28 2006 By Matthew Fisher
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscriber/world/story/3751713p-4337348c.html 

MOSCOW -- Senior Sgt. Sergei Kirjushin spent the most intense 18 months of his life in Afghanistan in the late 1980s with an elite Red Army airborne regiment that sometimes fought Islamic holy warriors at such close quarters he could "feel their breath." 
Like a surprisingly large number of the former Soviet Union's 620,000 Afghan war vets, the burly ex-paratrooper is aware the Canadian army is now fighting some of the very same mujahideen and their progeny for control of the same unforgiving, arid landscape. 

Kirjushin's convinced nothing good will come of Canada's war in Afghanistan. 

"It is really impossible to win there. No positive result can be expected," Kirjushin, whose shaved head gives him a ferocious look, said during a long, often grim conversation at the Afghan War Veterans Association in the centre of the Russian capital. 

"As every nation that goes to fight in Afghanistan discovers, nobody has ever conquered that place. Even children were involved. They would blow up our tanks." 

Col. Alexander Khmel, who as a young artillery officer spent a year with an infantry unit in Afghanistan and still has four pieces of shrapnel embedded in his body from his time there, shared Kirjushin's dark pessimism about the task facing Canadian troops.    
"Please send my personal condolences to your army and to the families of those who have already died," said Khmel, who retired from the Red Army last year. 

"If your army stays there, further losses are inevitable. Lots of them. I really feel sorry for your boys." 

Military analyst Alexander Golts, who covered the Afghan war for the Red Army newspaper, provided a more nuanced but equally discouraging assessment of the latest war in a distant place where Russian troops used to call the enemy "dukhi" or 'ghosts" because they would often hide their weapons and quietly mix in with the local population at the end of a losing battle only to resurface somewhere else to continue the fight. 

"An American general once told me that a civilized nation can't win a guerrilla war until it stops being civilized itself," said Golts. "I think that that is true in Afghanistan. 

"Any attempt to bring outside principles to Afghanistan by military force cannot work because this is a traditional society that simply does not understand principles, whether they are principles of freedom or principles of communism. They only see us as invaders." 

The former Soviet Union's' Afghan misadventure lasted a decade. When it was over in 1989 about 15,000 Soviet soldiers and more than one million Afghans were dead. 

A timely paper written last year for NATO by Col. Oleg Kulakov, a serving Russian army officer who spent five years in Afghanistan as a military interpreter, discussed many of the difficulties that bedeviled the Red Army there between 1979 and 1989. 
More on link


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## tomahawk6 (28 Oct 2006)

> "An American general once told me that a civilized nation can't win a guerrilla war until it stops being civilized itself," said Golts. "I think that that is true in Afghanistan.



The Russians should have won then.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (28 Oct 2006)

We seem to be in the midst of a media campaign against the deployment, with stories everywhere either denigrating our efforts or engaging in wild speculation - all aimed at portraying a "desperate" military on a mission that is guaranteed to fail.  This "Russian" story is typical:  out of context, without any historical comparative analysis and misrepresentative of what we're doing in theatre.

The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if there isn't a link between this plethora of hatchet jobs and the much-touted "Day of Protest" scheduled for today...  Naaa...


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## paracowboy (28 Oct 2006)

Russian slash and burn terror tactics aimed at conquering a people vs Canadian tactics aimed at providing a safe and secure environment wherein the Afghan people can decide their own destiny.

Yeah, that's a valid comparison.  :

MORONS.


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## hhour48 (28 Oct 2006)

I have done a lot of related reading in my spare time and I find a lot of similarities between the two wars. You can read some of the stories in English at http://artofwar.ru/e/english/


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## paracowboy (28 Oct 2006)

Bratok said:
			
		

> I have done a lot of related reading in my spare time


yeah, me too. I find far fewer similarities than differences. The major similarities: skin colour. The major differences: reason for being there & behaviour.


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## tomahawk6 (28 Oct 2006)

The Russians were just as ruthless as the afghans. Ruthlessness in war is nothing new to the Russians just look at Grozney and the fighting in Chechnya. The difference between Chechnya and Afghanistan is that the Russians were not prepared to pay the price in blood to keep Afghanistan, afer all they consider Chechnya to be Russian.


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## hhour48 (28 Oct 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> yeah, me too. I find far fewer similarities than differences. The major similarities: skin colour. The major differences: reason for being there & behaviour.



I would blame the issue of 18-yr old conscript who is told to be there army vs. volunteer professional army wanna be there army (Although many soviet officers and senior nco's were professionals - only ncms and junior nco's were conscripts - and a lot of them volunteered to be transferred into the 40th Army)

However, if you take your typical infantry battalion and compare their tasks (runing convoys, weapon cache raids, ambushes, training ANA and ANP, distributing humanitarian aid, etc) they are not that far off. 

I have also read about one CO who had rigged several nearby villages to his diesel generators and gave them all the surplus electricity; he also ordered his engineers to build irrigational systems and wells for the locals; needless to say, very soon all types of attmepts on their property by mujahedeen disappeared, and the local warlord even gave him a Mercedes Benz as a gift. So while the overall strategic vision for the mission might have had elements of "conquering" in it, not all local tactics were in fact tactics of "scorched earth"


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## paracowboy (28 Oct 2006)

read some of Artyom Borovik's work, then compare tactics and mentalities.


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## rz350 (28 Oct 2006)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The Russians were just as ruthless as the afghans. Ruthlessness in war is nothing new to the Russians just look at Grozney and the fighting in Chechnya. The difference between Chechnya and Afghanistan is that the Russians were not prepared to pay the price in blood to keep Afghanistan, afer all they consider Chechnya to be Russian.



Chechnya is Russian. And Basayev's followers have it coming. They can burn in the same hell as the Taliban.

perhaps however, the Soviet Veterans would like to offer up some Lessons learned, instead of blind criticism. They do have over 10 years of experience in that place, and I am sure they would have some actually useful lessons to share. But alas, it was really just an anti war article, one that is using veterans to push its agenda. Somthing that sickens me.


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## tomahawk6 (28 Oct 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> Chechnya is Russian. And Basayev's followers have it coming. They can burn in the same hell as the Taliban.
> 
> perhaps however, the Soviet Veterans would like to offer up some Lessons learned, instead of blind criticism. They do have over 10 years of experience in that place, and I am sure they would have some actually useful lessons to share. But alas, it was really just an anti war article, one that is using veterans to push its agenda. Somthing that sickens me.



Fortunately for us we cant use Russian Lessons Learned because they are against the Geneva Convention.


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## Petard (28 Oct 2006)

Could always be worse, the Canadian media could start sounding like the UK's. If the BBC were to be believed we should start negotiaitng the hand-over to the Taliban right now.


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## boondocksaint (28 Oct 2006)

More useful then the Russian AAR standpoint, was a book with over 180 post battle reports by Muhajideen leaders some of us read prior to deployment. I'll find the name of the book later, it is on the never ending lending cycle.

I've met several former Muhajideen, in various capacities over there, they dont view us as anything like the Russians.


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## paracowboy (28 Oct 2006)

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> More useful then the Russian AAR standpoint, was a book with over 180 post battle reports by Muhajideen leaders some of us read prior to deployment. I'll find the name of the book later, it is on the never ending lending cycle.


bds,
was it this:
The Other Side of The Mountain: Mujahideen Tactics in the Soviet-Afghan War by Ali Ahmad Jalali & Lester W. Grau


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## Teddy Ruxpin (28 Oct 2006)

You're thinking of "The Other Side of the Mountain" - required reading IMHO.  Its counterpart is "The Bear Went Over the Mountain" which presents the conflict from the Soviet perspective.  Both are by Lester Grau (the former book with a co-author).

Edit:  Para beat me to it!


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## boondocksaint (28 Oct 2006)

It could very well be that book. I was about 3rd to read it, and pass it on, it has gone through many hands now. Which as Teddy mentioned, is probably a good thing as far as required reading goes.

A former Mujahideen leader, was talking with some of us one day and talked about battle tactics in certain areas. He borrowed some paper, took out a pen, and drew us ( my Pl comd included ) an impromptu lesson in how to fight the Taliban from his point of view.

I kept the paper.


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## McG (28 Oct 2006)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> You're thinking of "The Other Side of the Mountain"


I think it is being sold under a new name now.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (28 Oct 2006)

Could well be - my copy dates from the initial distribution for APOLLO.  Grau spoke to LFWA's SLS last year, but didn't (IMHO, of course) have much insight to offer the assembled masses.


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## Infanteer (28 Oct 2006)

MCG said:
			
		

> I think it is being sold under a new name now.



It is indeed, I'm still kicking myself for not picking it up when I spotted it in a Harrisburg, PA bookstore....

Afghan Guerrilla Warfare: In the Words of the Mujahideen Fighters


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## sober_ruski (29 Oct 2006)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Ruthlessness in war is nothing new to the Russians just look at Grozney and the fighting in Chechnya. The difference between Chechnya and Afghanistan is that the Russians were not prepared to pay the price in blood to keep Afghanistan, afer all they consider Chechnya to be Russian.



When you read what Chechens did with captured Russian soldiers, you'll probably understand why there were ruthless. Memoirs of a soldier translated, a rather long, but a good read. As rz350 said, those criminals (they are nothing more than criminals. drug/weapon runners, hostage takers, etc) had it coming. 

And as for the article itself, I'm pretty sure if those vets found out the nature of the article they were being quoted for, the reporter would loose a few teeth and/or suffer other injuries.


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## Klc (29 Oct 2006)

I'm trying to find an online copy... It's open domain (Can't remember if thats the right term, meaning its non-copywritten) as it was funded by the USMC if I recall correctly.


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## 1feral1 (29 Oct 2006)

Russia was there for 10yrs trying to expand their empire, committing attrocities to try to win. There is a 180 degree difference between us and them in everthing from our reason to be there, and everything else in between.


Regards,

Wes


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## cameron (29 Oct 2006)

As someone with no military experience and whose knowledge of the military is purely academic, I should probably stay out of this discussion.  However, as I read these comments from the Russian vets I can't help think of the old saying "misery loves company".  I wonder if the remarks by these proud former Red Army soldiers isn't more to do with the fact that the Russian Army, the world's second largest after China's during the Cold War, failed militarily in Afghanistan, and the possibility of Canada's Army, which isn't even a tenth the size of Russia's succeeding in the same theatre, against the same enemy causes them some chagrin.

It is too early to tell what the eventual outcome in Afghanistan will be.  It is an effort that like the British involvement in Northern Ireland will take years to bear fruit.  But even if Afghanistan turns out to be a political failure, militarily the Canadian Army will be able to hold its head up high.  So far the performance of Canadian soldiers on Afghanistan's battlefields has it standing head and shoulders above many of the world's larger armies (not to denigrate any of the NATO allies).  

Just as the Canadians taught the Germans and Italians a thing or two on the battlefields of World War II Europe, so they are now teaching the Russians a thing or two in the mountains of A'stan (don't be fooled, you can bet the Russians were observing the battle of Panjawi province with great interest and perhaps some jealousy).  I am willing to bet that future generations of Officer Cadets at West Point, Sandhurst and St. Cyr when studying how not to fight a guerilla war will look at the Russians in A'stan, when studying how to fight such a war, they will look at the Canadians in A'stan.  To quote that Princess Pat. soldier in the July 13th Youtube video in which they raided a Taliban compound "...they're definitely gonna wonder who the Canadians are from here on out."


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## sober_ruski (29 Oct 2006)

CF isnt the only force in Afganistan right now, so the 1/10th comment doesnt hold.


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## cameron (29 Oct 2006)

I never said or alluded that they were the only force in A'stan; however, the fact is that one of the world's smallest armies has contributed one of the largest numbers of ground troops to A'stan and spearheaded the assault on the Taliban in southern A'stan.  when one compares the results gained thus far in south A'stan by a NATO force led by one of the alliances smallest armies the Canadians are pretty bloody exceptional if you ask me.   So I would say that the comments by former Red Army soldiers comparing their war to what the Canadians are doing now don't hold.  

Also as others on this forum have commented already, Canada isn't there because it wants to conquer anyone or anything.  It is there out of a genuine desire to lift downtrodden people from under the shadow of oppression and terror.  For that reason as well the comments of those Russian vets don't hold even a litre of water.


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## sober_ruski (29 Oct 2006)

I just noticed one thing. In those quotes they do not specify who they are talking about. If Winnipeg Free press is just as biased towards the current rulling party (NDP, how did you guys elected those twats?) as say.... Montreal Gazzete (sp?), or pretty much any other left leaning paper, i wouldnt be suprised if they were quoted completely out of context OR, since there are no links to the original in that website, completely made up in the first place.


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## rz350 (29 Oct 2006)

cameron said:
			
		

> As someone with no military experience and whose knowledge of the military is purely academic, I should probably stay out of this discussion.  However, as I read these comments from the Russian vets I can't help think of the old saying "misery loves company".  I wonder if the remarks by these proud former Red Army soldiers isn't more to do with the fact that the Russian Army, the world's second largest after China's during the Cold War, failed militarily in Afghanistan, and the possibility of Canada's Army, which isn't even a tenth the size of Russia's succeeding in the same theatre, against the same enemy causes them some chagrin.



To be fair however, The Current Talibs are not getting support and training from a world super power. (You know, Stinger Missiles and CIA and US generals teaching tactics)

I don't doubt we are doing a better job. But they also had Proxy war thing going on, with US/western support for their enemies. Whereas right now, the Taliban are getting no support from superpowers..perhaps only from Iran and some Partisans in North Pakistan.

I do believe (and many things I've read on the Soviet Afghan conflict agree) that the soviet faliure was mostly do to US support of the Afghans, and not to the Afghans being, in and of them selves, better then the Soviets.


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## paracowboy (29 Oct 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> Whereas right now, the Taliban are getting no support from superpowers..perhaps only from Iran and some Partisans in North Pakistan.


 they are receiving considerably more asistance from Pakistan than you seem to think. Deliberate funding and arming from the ISI and select military leaders, support, recruits, and funding from various madrassas and student organizations, and not least - implicit support from Mushie himself in that Mushie won't/can't move into the Northern Provinces and crush the tribes.


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## TangoTwoBravo (29 Oct 2006)

The Soviets faced a much more wide-spread insurgency, with attacks pretty much across the map.  The situation today is somewhat more localized to the south/east.  The Muj during the 80s had tremendous funding and several governments openly working for them, whereas the Taliban have somewhat more limited (but still considerable) resources.

Not to denigrate the Soviets, but our forces are also different in terms of motivation, training and equipment.  I  never questioned what I was doing there.  The ANA I worked with also appeared well motivated with high morale and a willingness to take the fight to the enemy.  They understand the stakes.

I have also read that the Muj faced a crisis in the mid-war years (1985/86) as the Soviets adapted their equipment and tactics.  The Hind Gunships and SU-25s started to make an impact.  The widespread employment of the Stinger was perhaps the turning point.

We can learn from the Soviets and the Muj, but we also need to be careful with our analysis.  Nevertheless, it was interesting to read Afghan Guerilla Warfare and see Panjwayi vignettes.  I would also suggest reading The Bear Trap.


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## sober_ruski (29 Oct 2006)

Today's technology is also different from what it was more than 20 years ago. 
It's a totally different conflict, the fact that left leaning rag quoted someone who was there 20 years ago (as i said, i wouldn't be surprised if the interview is made up) to support NDP's agenda says they are struggling to find support else where.

Also, if the interview is not made up, those old grunts probably do not want anyone else dying in that place, regardless of nationality or ideology.


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