# Corps without an RSM.



## Muir (21 Jun 2006)

With my corps our RSM aged out. Next September one of our Sgt. was going to be RSM but failed his NSCE. The other Sgt also aged out, and the other other Sgt just finished her gold star training and won't be NSCE qualified until next year, if she passes. Our corps is small, 20 on parade night when we're lucky Will operations be changed much with only a SSM and no RSM? Is anyone else in another corps that has this problem or has had this problem?


----------



## Burrows (21 Jun 2006)

You don't need to be a CWO to be the RSM.


----------



## geo (21 Jun 2006)

RSM is an appointment - not a rank

An NCO can be given the title of RSM .... cause there's nobody else
(he does not wear the Coat of arms though)


----------



## Muir (22 Jun 2006)

OK, that's good then. I guess it was just misinformation. A couple of people were saying in my corps that you needed NSCE and warrent rank to be RSM, but it's all good if it's not necessary. Thank-you.


----------



## Nobby (30 Jun 2006)

With a corps of your size there is no requirement to even have an RSM. A platoon WO would suffice. Given the situation that you describe I would recommend against an RSM at this time. If a person without the right qualifications, experience, and merit is out into that position, then you run the risk of taking the value and prstige away. Never promote "Because we need one." That always ends up lowering a corps standards and from my point of view, most cadet corps in Canada can't afford any more of that.


----------



## Canadian Psyco (21 Aug 2006)

my corp is in the same position. to be the RSM you must be NSCE qualified, but you can be the BSM/SSM without, meaning you will have a 2ic in charge as opposed to a RSM.


----------



## p_imbeault (21 Aug 2006)

Canadian Psyco said:
			
		

> my corp is in the same position. to be the RSM you must be NSCE qualified, but you can be the BSM/SSM without, meaning you will have a 2ic in charge as opposed to a RSM.


If he is In Charge, then he is not the 2/IC, he is the IC


----------



## Burrows (21 Aug 2006)

I don't know how many times this needs to be stated.  RSM is an appointment, not a rank.  Setting silly rules regarding the appointment when I'm sure whoever the BSM/SSM is perfectly capable of being RSM is just stupid.  CWO = Rank and prequisites, RSM = Appointment.


----------



## ryanmann356 (22 Aug 2006)

I'll come and be the RSM and get CWO Ms. Muir how does that sound?? lol


----------



## Muir (22 Aug 2006)

Thanks all the same, but you can stay with your corps. Besides, would you really want to move to Alberta?


----------



## ryanmann356 (23 Aug 2006)

god no, i like it here lol


----------



## Muir (23 Aug 2006)

Hey, Alberta isn't that bad, after all I live here. I'm just saying, to move all the way to Alberta to be RSM of a corps with about 20 cadets is kind of ridiculous.


----------



## ryanmann356 (23 Aug 2006)

Muir said:
			
		

> Hey, Alberta isn't that bad, after all I live here.



We'll move all of the charlie staff there then the corps would be better


----------



## dmwheaton (27 Aug 2006)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> You don't need to be a CWO to be the RSM.



Common misconception.  This is the case in the Canadian Forces, yes.  But within the Canadian Cadet Movement there is a Cade Administrative Training Order (CATO) that dictates rank prerequisites for appointments.  Specifically, CATO 40-03, "Promotion Prerequisites and Cadet Corps Appointments".

For a cadet to be an RSM, he or she must first be a CWO.

-- Lt. W


----------



## Klc (28 Aug 2006)

dmwheaton said:
			
		

> Common misconception.  This is the case in the Canadian Forces, yes.  But within the Canadian Cadet Movement there is a Cade Administrative Training Order (CATO) that dictates rank prerequisites for appointments.  Specifically, CATO 40-03, "Promotion Prerequisites and Cadet Corps Appointments".
> 
> For a cadet to be an RSM, he or she must first be a CWO.
> 
> -- Lt. W



This is why my corps' RSM at one point was an acting CWO - I believe this is exactly why an acting rank can be held.


----------



## rmacqueen (28 Aug 2006)

We are currently facing the same situation.  We have an extremely small corps (10+) and there is a very good chance that our current SSM will not be returning in the fall and next rank in line is MCpl so we may be going without.


----------



## geo (28 Aug 2006)

not having one isn't the end of the world.
The minute you have such a small org with an unqualified individual wearing the CWOs rank, you start diluting the gene pool and project the impression that the CWO rank is just as good as a Sgt's.

NOT!

Give the MCpl his Sgt's and he'll be proud to wear them.


----------



## Burrows (29 Aug 2006)

dmwheaton said:
			
		

> Common misconception.  This is the case in the Canadian Forces, yes.  But within the Canadian Cadet Movement there is a Cade Administrative Training Order (CATO) that dictates rank prerequisites for appointments.  Specifically, CATO 40-03, "Promotion Prerequisites and Cadet Corps Appointments".
> 
> For a cadet to be an RSM, he or she must first be a CWO.
> 
> -- Lt. W



I fail to comprehend the logic behind that.  One of the Annexes to CATO 40-03 says that the "appointment" for a C/CWO is the Regimental Sergeant Major, however it doesn't say anything pertaining to the appointment of another member as that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but regarding interpretation of CATOS:
Must = The corps is required to adhere to
Shall Not = The corps will under no circumstances do
May = viable option
Should = reccomended option

Nowhere in that document or the Annexes do I see "The CO shall not appoint a cadet under the rank of CWO the position of Regimental Sergeant Major."  This may very well imply it is open to interpretation.  If it is against the rules as you say, how about the technicalities of things such as change of Regimental Sergeant Major?


----------



## Sloaner (29 Aug 2006)

Kyle is somewhat correct, the normal appointment for a Cadet Chief Warrant Officer is going to be Cadet RSM.  This falls logically because there will only be 1 C/CWO in a given corps while there may be multiples of C/MWO's or C/WO's.  In a small corps (less than 30) the corps may only have 1 C/CWO or C/MWO so either rank can fill the appointment at the discrestion of the Commanding Officer.  They would still need to meet the pre-requisites for qualification at rank, so if they are a C/Sgt or above they should have already completed NSCE, so they should have the requisite knowledge to effectively handle the position, but wil likely need more guidance from their staff as they are still gaining the experience we would normally expect of someone in a cadet command position.

That being said, it may be beneficial to appoint your most senior cadet to other senior positions as per annex B of 40-03 first and gradually let them take on new responsibilities and allow their title to change as their realm of responsibilities changes.  If your most senior cadet (read highest ranking, no relation to TI) is a newly promoted and qualified C/Sgt why not start by giving him the responsibilities of a Platoon Warrant, still working above the normal appointment for his rank but shows faith in his abilities, then grow him into a CSM, and eventuall an RSM.  Not having an RSM isn't the end of the world, but throwing someone into the role when they aren't quite ready could have more ill effects on the corps in the longer term.  Let it happen naturally, and I'm sure your staff are already well aware of this, trust them to do the right thing.


----------



## wo_wong830 (13 Sep 2006)

Yups I know how it feels! When i was a private. my favorite BSM left (aged out) and den came to our DSM which is also one of my favorites. The last one is my brother, the RSM! I dont know. He can be really strict in cadets but at home really nice. I really wish that everyone good luck for 2007/2008 year for NSCE!   

 :crybaby:  

PS: In loving memory of the troops who died in Afghansitan


----------



## ryanmann356 (13 Sep 2006)

wo_wong830 said:
			
		

> When i was a private. my favorite BSM left (aged out) and den came to our DSM which is also one of my favorites. The last one is my brother, the RSM! I dont know. He can be really strict in cadets but at home really nice.



I fail to see what this has to do with the thread

PS spelling and grammar


----------



## D. Nicholson (13 Sep 2006)

dmwheaton said:
			
		

> Common misconception.  This is the case in the Canadian Forces, yes.  But within the Canadian Cadet Movement there is a Cade Administrative Training Order (CATO) that dictates rank prerequisites for appointments.  Specifically, CATO 40-03, "Promotion Prerequisites and Cadet Corps Appointments".
> 
> For a cadet to be an RSM, he or she must first be a CWO.
> 
> -- Lt. W



There has been fairly substatial discussion of this CATO, either here or on CadetWorld? Anyways the CATO in it's literal form is exactly what you have posted; however  I know in RSCU (P) the conclusion has been that this does not determine a Cadet's position as it is far too restricting. Imagine a new LHQ that could only haveSecComds! LOL. I am not sure if this policy of not following policy is supported by D Cdts, although RSCU (P) is generally quite good at that.


----------

