# Does the CF use Cooling Vests?



## adaminc (17 Jul 2008)

Hello all,

I was just wondering if anyone knew if the CF was using cooling vests out in Afghanistan or other high temperature places, and not in-vehicle systems, but personal systems? I was just recently reading about them, and for the most part, the companies who are developing these systems, all seem to focus on ice-pack based systems. 

Anyways, I read that the DRDC was doing some research into them back in 2007 and I was wondering if they have started to put them in use yet.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone knew if the CF was using cooling vests out in Afghanistan or other high temperature places, and not in-vehicle systems, but personal systems? I was just recently reading about them, and for the most part, the companies who are developing these systems, all seem to focus on ice-pack based systems.
> 
> Anyways, I read that the DRDC was doing some research into them back in 2007 and I was wondering if they have started to put them in use yet.











I'm sorry. I didn't really mean that.

But to answer. Not that I'm aware of.


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## armyvern (17 Jul 2008)

Have no idea what the current sitrep is with them, but they were trialled overseas back in 03. And, the consensus was ... they needed work!


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Have no idea what the current sitrep is with them, but they were trialled overseas back in 03. And, the consensus was ... they needed work!



Hmmm. Never heard about them when I was there. But that's not unusal either.


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## adaminc (17 Jul 2008)

The main reason I am asking all this is because I have come up with a new design for a cooling vest that would possibly work very well, the only problem is I don't have the money to develop the system right now, so I will be waiting until I am in the CF, I will be applying for LCIS Trade. 

I was reading CFAO 99-4 -- INVENTIONS on the ADM site, and it talks about Crown Rights, specifically it says this

CROWN RIGHTS

11. All rights in an invention, in Canada and elsewhere, are vested in Her Majesty when the invention is made by a member of the Canadian Forces or a civilian employee of the Department of National Defence:

     a.   while acting within the scope of his duties or employment;

     b.   with facilities, equipment or financial aid provided by or on
          behalf of Her Majesty; or

     c.   as a result of or in connection with his duties or employment.

12. An invention which is made under conditions other than those defined in para 11 also shall be reported. If such an invention has a defence use, arrangements may be made to acquire rights to use the invention and to compensate the inventor.

I was wondering if I build this in my own private off time, since it doesn't have anything to do with the LCIS Trade but with the basic health of a soldier, would it be usurped by the Crown? or would this fall under paragraph 12.


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## armyvern (17 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> The main reason I am asking all this is because I have come up with a new design for a cooling vest that would possibly work very well, the only problem is I don't have the money to develop the system right now, so I will be waiting until I am in the CF, I will be applying for LCIS Trade.
> 
> I was reading CFAO 99-4 -- INVENTIONS on the ADM site, and it talks about Crown Rights, specifically it says this
> 
> ...



I'm going to link your post to another member here ... who actually called my office today ref this very CFAO. If you want direction as to how to go about this when you get in --- he'd be the one to talk to.

Vern


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## Loachman (17 Jul 2008)

DCIEM, now DRDC Toronto, developed cooling vests for the Sea Kings that deployed to the Gulf War. This was principally to deal with the additional heat stress of wearing full NBCW protective gear while flying.


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## armyvern (17 Jul 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> DCIEM, now DRDC Toronto, developed cooling vests for the Sea Kings that deployed to the Gulf War. This was principally to deal with the additional heat stress of wearing full NBCW protective gear while flying.



The ones that we trialled were more shirt-like than vest-like.


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## adaminc (18 Jul 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> DCIEM, now DRDC Toronto, developed cooling vests for the Sea Kings that deployed to the Gulf War. This was principally to deal with the additional heat stress of wearing full NBCW protective gear while flying.



I am betting that these vests use some sort of large non portable A/C like unit built into the Sea King, my idea is a portable one man, no ice pack, vest/shirt.


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## 1feral1 (18 Jul 2008)

Hello to all our most gracious members and guests.

During my tour in the Baghdad region, we toyed with the idea of cooling vests for use with our LAVs when it was a balmy 55C w/3% humidity. Add on more in the sun, and even more again inside a LAV.

One main concern was the cooling chemicals, and its toxicity when introduced to flesh at velocity WRT frag/shrap wounds. Most chemicals used in the vests were indeed proven to be toxic if forced into flesh causing more unnecessary and potentially fatal trauma.

Our most direct threat was IED, EFP and IDF, along with SAF, so the chances of an incident involving a cooling vest chemicals vs flesh was constant. Its not as we were back in the safety of Ali Al Salem in Kuwait, or other similar safe areas, whre maybe such an idea for troops in the heat could use such a thing.

Anyways, the idea was immediatly abandoned. Once we found out the potential dangers the idea was dropped like a hot potato.

We just rolled with it, and drank more water.

We were excited aas autum and winter rolled around.


Happy days,

OWDU


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## adaminc (18 Jul 2008)

OWDU, that's good information to know. However, with my idea, the only fluid (the working fluid) in use is water, so I don't think it would cause such a problem. However, I am wondering if the tubing used would be a problem, I will have to check into it.


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## Loachman (18 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> I am betting that these vests use some sort of large non portable A/C like unit built into the Sea King, my idea is a portable one man, no ice pack, vest/shirt.



Ice Pack.


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## adaminc (18 Jul 2008)

You wouldn't happen to know how long they lasted?


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## GAP (18 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> OWDU, that's good information to know. However, with my idea, the only fluid (the working fluid) in use is water, so I don't think it would cause such a problem. However, I am wondering if the tubing used would be a problem, I will have to check into it.



What about power consumption? Is this something that you are plugging into the LAV power system to circulate/cool the water? The power draw on even a small pump is horrendous if you are talking about battery power...

The working fluid might be water, but the heat/cooling transfer is terrible for water vs (eg methanol alcohol/antifreeze. That's why car engines don't work well on water only coolant....it's inefficient...


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## adaminc (18 Jul 2008)

It will be both pluggable into a power system and battery powered, the pump I have lined up only uses 18W. My main worry about my system is how long it should last, that is to say, the amount and weight of the batteries which could be the heaviest part.


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## GAP (18 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> It will be both pluggable into a power system and battery powered, the pump I have lined up only uses 18W. My main worry about my system is how long it should last, that is to say, the amount and weight of the batteries which could be the heaviest part.



Using the standard power formula P=IE, then 18W of power will draw (on a 24 v system) .75 Amp of current....that's a huge draw on batteries..


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## Farmboy (18 Jul 2008)

> The main reason I am asking all this is because I have come up with a new design for a cooling vest that would possibly work very well, the only problem is I don't have the money to develop the system right now, so I will be waiting until I am in the CF, I will be applying for LCIS Trade.
> 
> I was reading CFAO 99-4 -- INVENTIONS on the ADM site, and it talks about Crown Rights, specifically it says this
> 
> ...




 Suggestion;  

1) Stay out of the CF.  Even if they compensate you when they take your product it won't be that much at all.

2) Make a working copy asap even if you have to beg, borrow, etc..... the money to get it done.  Ideas cannot be protected however you can patent it if you have a working model (if it's new).  

 With a working copy as well you will find it easier to get a government grant, funding or private investor/ company that would help you bring it to market.

3) Once you have a working model it can be changed and improved with feedback

4) Think about other markets where this would sell

5) Think about a company that would build it and market it, then approach them about licencing it. ("Allen Vanguard" comes to mind)


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## Greymatters (18 Jul 2008)

6) Build a 'field-testing' phase into your testing plan and keep accurate records of your testing.   

7) Make an accurate assessment of production costs for a single vest and for mass production of 100+ vests.


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## aesop081 (18 Jul 2008)

Also make sure that your plan includes the final product be manufactured in Quebec.   ;D


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## Greymatters (18 Jul 2008)

Shawinigan Cooling Vests Inc.? 

( En francais, of course...  )


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## GAP (18 Jul 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Shawinigan Cooling Vests Inc.?
> 
> ( En francais, of course...  )



There might be manufacturing space alongside the hotel, on the opposite side of the golf course, or attached to the canoe museum... 

Just ask for Jean.....he'll head you in the right direction, but make sure you take care of him too!!


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## tank recce (18 Jul 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> The working fluid might be water, but the heat/cooling transfer is terrible for water vs (eg methanol alcohol/antifreeze. That's why car engines don't work well on water only coolant....it's inefficient...



Straight water heat transfer isn't actually that bad; the biggest problem with car engine heat transfer is the surface tension of the water keeping it out of the surface irregularities that are part of any commercially-produced metal surface, effectively reducing your heat transfer area by an astonishing amount. Street engines use toxic chemicals to 1) raise the boiling point, 2) lower the freezing point, 3) reduce / minimise corrosion, and 4) reduce the surface tension and actually get the water in full contact with the heat transfer surfaces of both galleries and rads. Point 1 can be ignored if either your heating rate isn't that high, or you can run your system at a higher pressure. Point 2 can be ignored if you don't subject the device to sub-zero weather while switched OFF. The third can be ignored if your process doesn't involve substances corroded by water. The fourth... well life isn't perfect. If he's using vinyl tubing, it's pretty smooth.

Race engines run distilled water (to avoid deposits), usually with a capful or two of WatterWetter (basically a soap, to reduce the surface tension and actually get the water in full contact with the heat transfer surfaces of both galleries and rads). Antifreeze is incredibly hard to clean up after a crash, and insanely slippery. One moron with a rad full of coolant can write off a race track for days, even weeks.

Since the young fellow seems to be talking about a cooling vest for use in high temp situations, I don't see an issue with using straight water. Hell, make it medical-class saline - if you get shot, the vest irrigates the wound! (sick joke, sorry)


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## adaminc (18 Jul 2008)

I was going to use water because it's cheap, non toxic, easily replaced, and works pretty well as a working fluid. I mean, if you can use it to cool a PC, I think it can cool a body.


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## 1feral1 (18 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> It will be both pluggable into a power system and battery powered, the pump I have lined up only uses 18W. My main worry about my system is how long it should last, that is to say, the amount and weight of the batteries which could be the heaviest part.



Greetings!

Does one wear a batt pack? Firslty what about batt acid being introduced to flesh the same way the chemicals would WRT shrap/frag/blast etc.

Plugged in?

Is this a crew only thing, or also for pax in APC/ Dismounts in LAV etc.

Quite frankly more cables and wires does not make an AFV crew happy. Its hazardous. Its bad enough with the leads for the CVC dangling. Imagine CVC, complete antiflash kit, goggles, leads, cooling vest, body armour/ attached with minimal pouches, FADs , shoulder holster, etc.

Now if batts are not going to be used, now a device/cooling system has to be mounted in the (already packed with enough stuff, plus combat loading of eqpt and supplies, pers kit etc) AFV.  24V, radios etc, possible interference perhaps, power drain on an already taxed system - AIRCON, lighting, fans, radios, RWS, ECM, etc.

All this then getting approval from the maintenence control agency, who would have to test this, and see if it falls into the rigid tech standards and catagories etc.

I don't think your plan will get passed your 'sample'.

Your intentions are well recieved though.

My two pence.


Warm regards,

OWDU


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## adaminc (19 Jul 2008)

It will be based on Lithium Ion Polymer batteries, so there is no battery acid, plus they are light weight and have an excellent energy density to weight ratio.

It is a portable system, so it goes with the soldiers, the power system will have a retractable cable that will plug into whatever power source is available (not sure what kind of connector is used)

However, I have been thinking of scrapping the idea, a friend of mine came over today and we were working out all the basic weight issues, it seems for it to be a functional system that it would probably weigh too much to be practical, for the system to run for 12 hours, it would weigh almost 15lbs (not the vest itself, but the battery pack + electronics + resevoir), which seems like it would be too much considering all the other stuff a soldier has to carry.


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## willy (19 Jul 2008)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Does one wear a batt pack? Firslty what about batt acid being introduced to flesh the same way the chemicals would WRT shrap/frag/blast etc.



There are already tons of batteries being carried by individual soldiers, in some cases very close to the skin.  



			
				adaminc said:
			
		

> However, I have been thinking of scrapping the idea, a friend of mine came over today and we were working out all the basic weight issues, it seems for it to be a functional system that it would probably weigh too much to be practical, for the system to run for 12 hours, it would weigh almost 15lbs (not the vest itself, but the battery pack + electronics + resevoir), which seems like it would be too much considering all the other stuff a soldier has to carry.



You're right.  Way too heavy.  But I can't think offhand of any gizmo that isn't smaller/lighter/better today than it was when it was first introduced.  Make one, then try to make it lighter.  Then make an even lighter one.


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## GAP (19 Jul 2008)

willy said:
			
		

> There are already tons of batteries being carried by individual soldiers, in some cases very close to the skin.
> 
> You're right.  Way too heavy.  But I can't think offhand of any gizmo that isn't smaller/lighter/better today than it was when it was first introduced.  Make one, then try to make it lighter.  Then make an even lighter one.



Willy is right....few seldom get it on the first try....that's why they are called prototypes... ;D


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## Greymatters (19 Jul 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> Willy is right....few seldom get it on the first try....that's why they are called prototypes... ;D



Its often easier to see how to improve something after youve got it off the blueprints and into three dimensions.  I wouldnt give up just yet!


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## Bob Terwilliger (19 Jul 2008)

Here is an article on different types of cooling vests.

http://ergonomics.uq.edu.au/eaol/chauhan.pdf

I would lean towards the dry ice model myself. No batteries, much colder. If one were to come up with a design along the lines of a light weight plastic vest(in the style of the high visibility vest) made of the same materiel refreezable ice packs are made of, that have the ability to be filled with dry ice pellets. The pellets could be manufactured in theatre. When the dry ice sublimates, just exchange the vest for a recharged one.


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## karl28 (19 Jul 2008)

adaminc 


           I was reading this with a bit of interest . I wouldn't give up on your design just yet keep testing remember if it does turn out not to be practical for soldiers to wear than maybe be good enough for the civilian market .    Example I work in a Long Term Carefacility as a PSW even though our facility has ac in the hallways the residents rooms and tub rooms  are not (Mostly for the fact that most residents can't handle being cold )  .  When we are working looking after the residents getting them dressed or helping them with baths  or just doing transfers all day  it gets really warm  something like this might work down the road .      It could also be great for construction workers or any else that works out side so just keep in mind that there is a civilian market out there to OK  . 


Cheers Karl


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## Mike Baker (19 Jul 2008)

karl28 said:
			
		

> remember if it does turn out not to be practical for soldiers to wear than maybe be good enough for the civilian market .



Or for LEOs during the summer, fire fighters, etc.


Good luck on the product! I am sure that once you have a final product idea, then you will have lots of people and companies who'll want in on getting some.

Cheers
Deadpan


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## George Wallace (19 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> It will be based on Lithium Ion Polymer batteries, so there is no battery acid,.......



Lithium you say.  No battery acid........OK.  How about toxic fumes when the cases are broken?


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## adaminc (20 Jul 2008)

It won't give off toxic fumes if punctured, it will most likely erupt into flames . Lithium is highly reactive with water, so the moisture in the air would react with it. However, the battery case would be as puncture proof as possible.


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## 1feral1 (20 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> It won't give off toxic fumes if punctured, it will most likely erupt into flames . Lithium is highly reactive with water, so the moisture in the air would react with it. However, the battery case would be as puncture proof as possible.



I don't think your idea is going to fly, sorry.

I would rather be hot and uncomfortable, its bad enough manouvering around in the ECBAin a AFV, with let alone another layer of crap to worry about, cables, wiresd what have you, and with a batt pack etc. Try squeezing out a LAV with more crap on, in an emergency exit, when you have a matter of seconds tro get out before you fry (literally).


Happy days,

OWDU


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## S.Stewart (20 Jul 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> It won't give off toxic fumes if punctured, it will most likely erupt into flames . Lithium is highly reactive with water, so the moisture in the air would react with it. However, the battery case would be as puncture proof as possible.



Correct me if I am wrong, but I would assume not many things in this world are puncture proof when it comes to things like IED's, RPG's etc, you know the usual "fun stuff" with tragedic consquences that float around the sandbox. Come on, use your head.


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## trencher (11 Aug 2008)

Good idea never been over seas yet but alot of my friends are armoured to sigs to infintry. Would be a great invention. Keep working on it dont give up.

Yeah the whole thing about the batteries. Whats on the front of ur TV middle of your chest that has batteries in it. Round hits that your getting acid in your face.


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## George Wallace (11 Aug 2008)

>

Please.

Spell Check makes it so much easier to read your post.   What is "ur"?


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## 1feral1 (11 Aug 2008)

trencher said:
			
		

> infintry.



Yes, we got to love those 'infintry' guys  ;D


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## trencher (11 Aug 2008)

Here we go again with the spellingbee's.

Next time I make a post I will be sure to make it in memo format just for you. And I will have someone spell check it just for you.


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## Franko (11 Aug 2008)

trencher said:
			
		

> Here we go again with the spellingbee's.
> 
> Next time I make a post I will be sure to make it in memo format just for you. And I will have someone spell check it just for you.



Back on topic troops. 

Trencher....they put on smilies with their posts, they're ribbing you.     

Mind you MSN speak isn't tolerated here.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## trencher (11 Aug 2008)

Yes I know and I am truely sorry . My spelling sucks. Oh yes and sorry for the MSN slang.

Back to the post I would be interested to see this cooling vest in action some day.


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## gaspasser (12 Aug 2008)

From the looks of all the posts, no one answered the original question.
When I was overseas, we used a cooling vest that got cold in the refrigerator.  It lasted about 3-4 hours depending on how hot it was and how hot you were.  It only covered the abdominal area and back.  And it worked very well when the ramp was about 75 frakking degrees!! and we were doing fuel jobs!
Regards, BYTD


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## trencher (13 Aug 2008)

Any links to that vest you used?


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## geo (13 Aug 2008)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> From the looks of all the posts, no one answered the original question.
> When I was overseas, we used a cooling vest that got cold in the refrigerator.  It lasted about 3-4 hours depending on how hot it was and how hot you were.  It only covered the abdominal area and back.  And it worked very well when the ramp was about 75 frakking degrees!! and we were doing fuel jobs!
> Regards, BYTD


Cooling vests like those you are describing are great when you have ready access to refrigerators. Armoured, Infantry and Engineers troops in operations don't.
Water bladders against the back offer some relief - just not very much 

There was talk at one point of equipping the Leo C2 tankers with some sort of circulating pump style cooling vest - but I don't think they ever put the plan into production once we got the Leo 2A6Ms.


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## Franko (13 Aug 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> There was talk at one point of equipping the Leo C2 tankers with some sort of circulating pump style cooling vest - but I don't think they ever put the plan into production once we got the Leo 2A6Ms.



They have them...and they work great.

Regards


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## Tetragrammaton (31 Jul 2010)

Anyone ever use any type of personal cooling on ex or operation?

I'm going to be trying out one of these phase cooling vest systems (http://www.glaciertek.com/RPCM_Cooling_Vest/Default.aspx), but am curious as to personal experiences. 

Key factors remain;

1. Weight = the vest under my consideration is 5 lbs with inserts or the equivalent of just over 2 liters of water. I think most of time I'd rather just have the extra 2 liters of drinking water.
2. Toxic materials, particularly in regards to open wounds.  
3. Duration of cooling. Most of these things are good for about 2 hours before the pack insets need to refrigerated, so the usage is rather limited.

Obviously, any cooling system is no substitute for heat acclimation and training.


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## BDTyre (31 Jul 2010)

Tetragrammaton said:
			
		

> Obviously, any cooling system is no substitute for heat acclimation and training.



Like training for +45 in -47 weather?  ;D


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## DirtyDog (2 Aug 2010)

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> They have them...and they work great.
> 
> Regards


Maybe they worked better when new, but judjing by the amount of gunners and drivers I saw hauled out after they passed out from the heat inside a Leo, I'd say they don't work that good.  Then again a lot of tankers were still wearing them (and TLAV crews) so I'm assuming they do _something_....

As far as a vest for dismounted troops, if it adds any weight past a few pounds, we aren't going to want it and honestly I don't beleive there's technology out there that would even be feasible.


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## shamu (2 Aug 2010)

"2. Toxic materials, particularly in regards to open wounds."

I know the fluid used for geothermal heating is called Glycol. It is "FoodSafe", you could drink it if so inclined.


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## DexOlesa (2 Aug 2010)

Well, Glycol is "Foodsafe" as the treatment for its poisoning is high proof liquor


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## Towards_the_gap (2 Aug 2010)

Why on earth do you think you need one?


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## Tetragrammaton (2 Aug 2010)

I find them an interesting idea, that I not heard much about previously, and was wondering how practical they are for field work in hot, plus 40, environments.


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## REDinstaller (2 Aug 2010)

They are much better when you have a cooling unit attached to them. Otherwise you might just as well douse yourself in water every 15-20 min. If you can carry enough to sustain that stupid activity. There tends to be no way to escape the Afghan heat while dismounted.


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## Tetragrammaton (2 Aug 2010)

Thanks, that was my initial feeling but still was curious enough to order one.

Might still be useful for convoy work.


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## REDinstaller (2 Aug 2010)

Most if not all Vehs have AC or a colling unit by now.


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## dogger1936 (2 Aug 2010)

I used the vehicle mounted one daily in the leopard on operations. I placed the vest in between my undershirt and shirt and plugged in when required when mounted. My gunner/driver plugged theirs in as soon as they mounted to prevent heat exuastion (of course copious amounts of gatoraide and water to combat the hydralic pumps) in their rather hot compartments. While myself and the loader plugged in as required as we had the wind to cool us unlike or hull monkey friends. We found the system was not so cold with 4 plugged in. We used various mixtures of glycol/water and found that the suggested mix was a little too glycol heavy and added more water than we were told which improved the usage.

My crew worshipped this piece of kit and no one was required to ensure they tested/ purged/ and looked after this kit. We had a few vests break on op's however were issued 2 per man which we carried in a 25mm can on the vehicle at all times.

The purging bottles were a pain in the ass and we made our own system out of a broken vest make end connection and a water bottle. basically when we put the circulation hoses into the bottle of new fluids and plugged it into the system it automatically purged itself. Much quicker that the issued bottles which required pumping, and resulted in less ait bubbles in the system.

We also plugged in 3 vests when we purged to allow the air bubbles and old fluid to be flushed from those as well.


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## REDinstaller (2 Aug 2010)

We were the 1st Sqn to have them installed in the C2s. I was quite jealous in my uncooled TLAV MRT. I know the drivers and gunners loved them, and cursed the crew commander when the cooling unit would contact something harder than it.


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## Towards_the_gap (3 Aug 2010)

I cannot comment on the mounted/armoured side of things. My entire tour thus far has been dismounted, so I will say they would be a waste of weight for dismounted infantry. The best thing to do is to acclimatise properly (ie do not live in AC, or at least keep it at 25-30)hydrate and stay fit. The only heat casualties I've seen thus far were those who came straight from an AC'd TI or KAF. Or the morbidly obese err less-than-fit...err those who struggle to make it to level 6 on the beep test.


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## Tetragrammaton (3 Aug 2010)

Thanks.

Seems like the idea still has a way to develop before it becomes applicable to general dismounted work.


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## McG (3 Aug 2010)

adaminc said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone knew if the CF was using cooling vests out in Afghanistan or other high temperature places, and not in-vehicle systems, but personal systems?


EOD teams have something.
Probably this: http://www.allenvanguard.com/Products/CoolingSystems/PersonnelCooling/BCS4BodyCoolingSystem/tabid/154/List/0/ProductID/31/CategoryID/7/Level/1/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName


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## Spañiard (13 Aug 2010)

The under armour Cooling vests with the the Ice packs you insert, I had one after 3 hrs you need to find a Freezer :, I have the USMC type its a Mesh that provides air pockets for circulation and works much better.


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## REDinstaller (15 Aug 2010)

Wouldn't be much of a cooling vest as in CF use, but more of a air circulation aid. Most COTS packs have this technology, doesn't do too much when its saturated with sweat already.


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