# QUESTION OF THE WEEK



## Danjanou

As Mike noted some of the moderators were brainstorming over the holiday period (via PM and e-mails we weren’t lucky enough to get together for a beer or two) on ideas to improve the site. Not that there’s anything wrong with it mind.

One idea suggested was a military history quiz or question of the week. There seems to be a lot of interest on the site in Canadian and general military history and a lot of knowledge here too. I’m not the moderator who thought up the idea, but as it was pointed out I’m the moderator nominally in charge of the Military History Forum and am literally full of worthless military (and other) trivia so I was volunteered to run it. 

It’s pretty informal and there are no prizes aside from bragging rights. One question a week will be posted here. I’ll try and post it on Sunday or Monday, and then you’re free to post your answer(s) here. I’ll post the answer on either the following Friday or Saturday depending on my schedule. Questions will mostly cover Canadian Army history but as time goes on we may toss in a Navy or Air Force question now and then. We’re also up for the occasional foreign military question too in keeping with our new forum.

As to whether the questions are hard or easy, well let’s just say one person’s hard question is another’s easy one. That is unless you’re Michal Dorosh who is prohibited from posting his answer until Thurday at midnight (just kidding Michael we might even stump you now and then. We tested some of the questions amongst the moderators and lets just say to avoid embarrassment the results have been sealed and classified. Actually most of us came up with some really good questions and answers. 

It’s all in good fun and we’ll keep it up as long as there’s an interest or until we run out of questions.

By the way that leads to the next point. Anyone who thinks they have a good question or piece of trivia. Please forward it to me by private message and we’ll add it with full credit to you of course. 

Ok without further delay here is the first week’s question:

*True or false a Victoria Cross has been awarded for actions on North American soil?*


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## dano

FALSE.


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## Michael OLeary

TRUE


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## Mike Bobbitt

Well one of you‘s a winner!    

Anyone voting "true" care to try to come up with some extra info?


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## sinblox

True. Private Timothy O‘Hea was the only recipient of the VC on Canadian soil.


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## Michael OLeary

O‘HEA, Timothy

     VC:  Danville, Quebec, June 9th, 1866. Award made for gallant conduct in extinguishing a fire in a railway ammunition car; it was the only VC ever won in Canada
     Born: Bantry, County Cork, Ireland
     Unit: The Rifle Brigade (British Army)
     Died: November, 1874


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## Michael OLeary

This VC was also one of few awarded during a brief period when the Victoria Cross could be won for actions other than in battle.

Mike


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## Cadet810

Why have Valour written in the VC ? If no Canadian has ever recieved one written with Valour?


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## Danjanou

well that lasted about as long as a 30 round mag in a firefight.    

Guess We‘ll have to work a little harder to stump you guys. I‘ll have another up in a day or two.

In the interm those who got the right answer (or anyone else), can you tell us another interesting tidbit about Rifleman O‘Hea VC after his encounter with a burning train in Quebec?


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## combat_medic

The VC is inscribed "For Valour" and if you think that no Canadian VCs have actually had valour, then I, and others will have some serious words with you. The change made to the Canadian VC (which has not yet been awarded, as no Canadian has won one since the change) has been to change "For Valour" to "Pro Valore"; the same thing, but in Latin


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## Michael Dorosh

I don‘t think that VC should count cause it was clearly not earned the time honoured way.

In the US Civil War, the Medal of Honor was awarded to an entire US Regiment, one per man, for re-enlisting.  I‘m not making it up.  And since the records were faulty, some of the guys that didn‘t re-enlist got it anyway.  In the early 1900s, these awards were rescinded.

Come to think of it, the way things are going here, perhaps the VC will become a recruiting incentive also....


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## Danjanou

> I don‘t think that VC should count cause it was clearly not earned the time honoured way


Sorry I can‘t let that pass without responding. What exactly is the "time honoured way?"

The guy charged into a burning railway car full of ammunition (you know the stuff that goes boom when it gets hot) to try and put the fire out.

I don‘t know about you but that sounds like it takes a pair as big as say charging a dug in machine gun bunker, or tossing yourself on a live grenade.

As noted, when it was awarded there was no distinction for actions in the face of the enemy or general acts of bravery as is the case now (Cross of Valour or prior to that the George Cross). Therefore I feel it is a deserved and obviously so did someone else.

I‘m curious though, care to tell us what VCs "count."


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## Korus

To add onto Danjanou‘s last post, that railway car was part of a train which had 800 German immigrants still on board. He didn‘t just save the ammunition, he saved lives.

 http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/VC_Recipients/ohea.htm


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## East Side Soprano

I‘m not making any allegations, but it seems kind of hard to believe...


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by S_Baker:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the US Civil War, the Medal of Honor was awarded to an entire US Regiment, one per man, for re-enlisting. I‘m not making it up. And since the records were faulty, some of the guys that didn‘t re-enlist got it anyway. In the early 1900s, these awards were rescinded.
> 
> 
> 
> Please provide your source of information, I have not been able to find anything that supports your allegations. [/qb]
Click to expand...

If you‘ve never heard of the Purge of 1917, I‘m afraid you‘re not very well versed in Medal of Honor lore.  How hard did you look, incidentally?  And where?

The 27th Maine regiment had 800+ awards of the Medal of Honor, that were rescinded in 1917.

I‘m assuming you know how to google, but if not, try here:

  http://ngeorgia.com/history/mohm.html 




> Perhaps the single most famous event associated with the Medal of Honor is the Purge of 1917. Originally convened in 1916 by Nelson Miles, himself a MOH awardee, the commission reviewed each of the Army medals awarded. Their report, presented in February, 1917, revoked the medals presented to 911 people including 864 medals awarded to the 27th Maine for re-enlisting and President Lincoln‘s funeral guard. Six medals awarded to civilians were revoked as well. Included in this group were Mary Walker, the only female awardee, and Buffalo Bill Cody, a scout and technically not a soldier during the Indian Wars.


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## Michael Dorosh

http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/corrections/purge_army.html 



> The 27th Maine
> 
> The 27th Regiment, Maine Infantry was organized in Portland, ME on September 30, 1862 for a period of nine months.  The unit spent most of its existence in garrison duty in and around Washington, DC and was scheduled for de-activation on June 30, 1863.
> 
> In June 1863 Confederate General Robert E. Lee marshaled his forces for the move North into Pennsylvania (where they clashed with Union troops at Gettysburg on July 1st).   Because of the massive Confederate movement, all available Union troops were dispatched to support General Meade, leaving the Nation‘s Capitol defenseless.  This caused Secretary of War Stanton to send an appeal on June 26th to the soldiers of the 25th and 27th Maine to extend their enlistment beyond the June 30th de-activation date.  Every member of the 25th Maine Infantry refused and departed for home.  Colonel Mark Wentworth of the 27th Maine did a better job of encouraging his men to stay, and some 300 volunteered to remain.
> 
> Angered at the men of the 25th Maine, and heartened by some 300 members of the 27th, a grateful Secretary of War ordered on June 29th that every man who had volunteered to stay beyond his enlistment to protect the Capitol, would receive the Medal of Honor.
> 
> The volunteers remained beyond their enlistment for only four days, by which time the battle at Gettysburg concluded.  Then they were released and returned home.  None of Colonel Wentworth‘s men had been involved in the combat at Gettysburg and, in fact, finished their enlistment having not seen combat at all.  None the less, they did not forget the Secretary‘s promise.  To further compound the problem, Secretary Stanton‘s order authorizing these Medals of Honor was poorly worded.  He requested a roster of the 300 or so men who had voluntarily remained to guard Washington, but received instead a roster for all men of the unit.  Eventually, the roster would contain the names of each of the 864 members of the 27th Maine, whether they had remained beyond their enlistment or not.
> 
> By January 1865 when the Medals were prepared for issue, most of the former members of the 27th Maine were scattered throughout their state and elsewhere, following their civilian pursuits.  The 864 Medals of Honor were forwarded to the Governor of Maine for distribution.  He in turn, delegated responsibility to Mark Wentworth who had gone on to serve in another Maine regiment until the close of the war.  Colonel Wentworth himself, was dubious of these presentations.  Beyond his year with the 27th Maine he had seen war, fear and valor; and he felt that the men of the 27th didn‘t deserve such a precious award for their simple act.  He did his best to give the awards ONLY to those he KNEW had remained for the extra four-day defense of the Capitol, but despite his best intentions and with no record of who had stayed and who had departed, it was a difficult task.  Some he gave out, but more than 500 he chose to store in his barn.  In the years that followed word got out about those stored Medals, and thieves broke in to steal many.  When Mark Wentworth died, whatever remained of them, disappeared altogether.


Does this count as something more than an "allegation"?


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## Michael OLeary

It‘s new to me as well. Here are a few websites on it:
  http://www.cmohs.org/medal/medal_history.htm  
  http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/corrections/purge_army.html  

Kudos to Mike for bringing this forward, it nicely highlights the fact that the conditions for awards of medals and honours have not always been rigorously controlled or applied, a state certainly not limited to the US Army. Our current understanding of such things does not necessarily reflect their entire history. As we have seen, conditions for award of the Victoria Cross changed during its history, similarly the conditions for award of our own battle honours has also evolved to its current state.

Mike


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## Spr.Earl

WoW!! What would one of those Gong‘s be worth to a collector today!

Neat bit of History Mike.
Thank‘s,you out do your self every time.   

Now don‘t get big headed


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## sinblox

Danjanou, I can‘t seem to find anything about what happened to the rifleman afterwards. Since this has strayed off, you should just tell us


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## Spr.Earl

Hey Guy‘s it‘s neat the off Topic Subject‘s but I think we should keep to the Topic!
Question Of The Week!

Just for you Sinblox     


PRIVATE TIMOTHY O‘HEA, VC
1ST BATTALION, THE RIFLE BRIGADE 
The Only VC won on Canadian Soil

Ten years after Queen Victoria instituted the Victoria Cross, a 20-year old Irish soldier won the Empire‘s highest award far from the scene of any combat, at Danville, Quebec, Canada. Private Timothy O‘Hea was honoured "for conspicuous courage under circumstances of great danger" - an almost classic understatement.

On the afternoon of 9th June 1866, a railway train from Quebec stopped at Danville. Locked in converted boxcars were 800 German immigrants. In another boxcar was 2000 pounds of ammunition for use against the Fenian raiders and it was O‘Hea‘s job along with four other men of the 1st Battalion Rifle Brigade to guard.

Late in the afternoon, O‘Hea noticed that the boxcar containing the ammunition was on fire and after shouting an alarm, discovered the railwaymen and other soldiers had fled. O‘Hea grabbed the keys to the boxcar from a dithering Sergeant and climbed aboard. He ripped burning covers off ammunition cases and tossed them outside, then for almost an
hour, making 19 trips to a creek for buckets of water, he fought the flames, the immigrants cheering him on unaware of their peril.

Timothy O‘Hea fought on alone and won. By evening, the ammunition had been loaded into another car and the train - immigrant coaches still attached - was on its way again. O‘Hea not only displayed great courage and total disregard for his own life in putting out the fire in the boxcar, but also saved 800 immigrants from certain death had the ammunition exploded. His was the only Victoria Cross ever won in Canada.

The name of Private Timothy O‘Hea VC is inscribed on the Rifle Brigade‘s roll of honour in Winchester Cathedral, England and his medal resides in the Royal Green Jackets Museum, also in Winchester. O‘Hea eventually died in Australia in 1874 and is buried in Sturt‘s Desert, Queensland.


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## Danjanou

Ok to get back to my second question, what happened to Rifleman O‘Hea after his encounter with a burning train.

As Korus noted in his Link (good info BTW, thanks) O‘Hea died in Australia in 1874. There were rumours that he had gone out there to pursue fame and fortune possibly mining for Opals. There are also suggestions that he was murdered.

Now here‘s the kicker. The person who died in Australia in 1874 might not have been Timothy O‘Hea. It appears he had a twin brother. There is a possibility that O‘Hea VC died much earlier of TB and his twin covered this up and assumed his identity in order to get the pension. It may have been the brother that died in Australia.

Thanks to brin11 for this extra little info on the life of Rifleman O‘Hea.

Michael that was a fascinating read about the regiment of MOH "winners" thanks for sharing. And that guys and girls is the kind of question (and discussion) we‘re looking for here.

So who‘s ready for another?


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## Michael Dorosh

Are we allowed to ask, or just answer?   

Which Canadian regiment was the last one to receive an official Battle Honour for WW II - when was the honour granted, and for which battle?


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## brin11

Just wanted to clear up a tiny point regarding Tim O‘Hea; don‘t believe it was a twin brother, just a brother that assumed his identity.


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## Danjanou

Michael Of course you‘re allowed to ask. Besides that way you can‘t answer and everyone gets a chance to play.   

Ok the esteemed Mr. Dorosh has posted the next question. (which means I can play in this round)Answers anyone.

brin11, sorry I misquoted you there, me bad.


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## Michael OLeary

Mike, would that be the Princess Louise Fusiliers receiving the Battle Honour "Arnhem. 1945", the award being finally confirmed in 1999?

"April 13, 1999 - The Princess Louise Fusiliers are awarded the Second World War battle honour ARNHEM, 1945. This was based on recently released documents that established the role of the 11th Independent Machine Gun Company (The Princess Louise Fusiliers) in support of the British 49(WR) Division attack on Arnhem (Op ANGER) during the period 12 to 14 April 1945."

Mike


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## Michael Dorosh

Michael OLeary, weren‘t you the dude that wrote about it for the Doctrine journal??

That was too easy - and of course you (and Danjanou, who answered via email) are correct.  Now how about this - what was the next newest, ie the one awarded immediately before the PLF‘s honour for Arnhem?  It was within the last couple of decades.  Two other hints

a) the regiment it was awarded to still exists
b) it was to an infantry regiment

I hope it is the one I am thinking of, but hey, maybe I‘ll learn something too if I am wrong.


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## Michael OLeary

I didn‘t write that piece. I just happened to be the Adjutant the following summer when the unit officially accepted the honour.

Mike


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## Danjanou

That was a good one Michael. My immediate guess was the Canadian Airborne Regiment being awarded the WWII battle honours of the 1st Canadian Parachute Bn and the SSF in the sixties but you‘re craftier than that. 

A little research (and a slow day at work) and the right answer eventually was found. Mind it helps I guess if you‘re in the Regiment involved I guess.

Prior to the PLF I‘m guessing either the  Canadian Scottish granted WAGENBORGEN in the 1990s, (Didn‘t the Toronto Scottish get it too?) Or the couple of "misplaced"" ones for the Lincoln and Welland Regiment.

Another easy one to keep the rest of you occupied while I come up with one to stump the two Mikes here (Dorosh and O‘Leary).

*True or false a Canadian Regiment has the Battle Honour Gallipoli?*


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## mattoigta

Im assuming false since there were no Canadian units (to my knowledge it was british and anzac and french in that area) in the world war 1 battle of Gallipoli. Perhaps it was awarded in another war?


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## mattoigta

Ahh crafty, the NFLD Regt has it


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan

Haha, but NFLD wasn‘t part of Canada until 1949.


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan:
> [qb] Haha, but NFLD wasn‘t part of Canada until 1949. [/qb]


But they are now.  The question is whether or not a Canadian unit has the battle honour Gallipoli.

The answer is yes (or true)...


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## xFusilier

Seeing as that one got answered quickly;

Where is the "Danger Tree" and why is it so named?


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## mattoigta

> Originally posted by xFusilier:
> [qb] Seeing as that one got answered quickly;
> 
> Where is the "Danger Tree" and why is it so named? [/qb]


haha it just so happens that the Danger Tree is the "Photo Of The Moment" on the main page

"The Danger Tree, in the middle of "No Man‘s Land" was a navigation feature and rallying point"


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## Danjanou

Scarlino, good one. The Newfoundland Regiment was the only "Colonial unit in the 29th Division of the British Army that landed at Gallipoli (the other Bns were all British/Northern Irish). ANZAC and french troops made up a lot of the invasion force but there were British regulars there too.

Bonus points for putting Newfoundland Regiment not Royal Newfoundland Regiment as they would not receive the Royal preface for another two years.

Re the Danger Tree, guys many of the answers are here on the web site. Like I said this is supposed to be fun and informative not "school."

Now a little followup, as I said the RNFLDR received their Royal Cypher in 1917, what is unique about that?


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Danjanou:
> [qb]
> 
> Now a little followup, as I said the RNFLDR received their Royal Cypher in 1917, what is unique about that? [/qb]


They were the only regiment granted the Royal distinction during the First World War...?


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## Danjanou

Close Michael.

The title "Royal" was bestowed in recognition of the unit‘s part in the battle of Cambrai. It‘s the only time a unit has been so recognized during hostilities. Usually a regiment receives the honorific after hostilities have ended in recognition of thier acheivements in a particular battle, campaign, war etc.

BTW it‘s not the first time the regiment has been "Royal" During the 18th and 19th centuries it was the Royal Newfounland Regiment and/or the Royal Newfoundland Fencibles and saw service throughout Upper Canada in the War of 1812 before being disbanded in 1816. For some reason when the unit was reconstituted in 1914 the "Royal" was not retained.


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## mattoigta

> Originally posted by Danjanou:
> [qb] BTW it‘s not the first time the regiment has been "Royal" During the 18th and 19th centuries it was the Royal Newfounland Regiment and/or the Royal Newfoundland Fencibles and saw service throughout Upper Canada in the War of 1812 before being disbanded in 1816. [/qb]


Yeah weren‘t they at some point garrisoned at Fort George? I visited the place the other year and was surprised to see alot of the Newfoundlander uniforms hung up in the barracks.


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## mattoigta

Here‘s the next question if I may. 

The Lorne Scots were punished with the Primrose hackle for rape committed during World War 2
* True Or False *


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan

TRALSE!


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan

Which regiment had the highest case of Alcoholism and VD in WWII?


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## fusilier955

> In the 1960s, the Lancashire Fusiliers, the allied regiment in England since 9 May 1929, suffered amalgamation and in the process bestowed its revered primrose hackle on the Lorne Scots for custodianship. It is now worn proudly on the headdress of all Lorne Scots infantry personnel.


FALSE


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## Danjanou

Scarlino. Yeah they were part of the garrison there amongst other places. The few "Canadian regular regiments" like the British battalions were often broken up into small company sized garrisons all over Upper Canada. That‘s why you‘ll see their name appearing in battles all over the place almost at the same time, Detroit, River Raisin, Queenston, York, Oswego, etc.

Not bad one re the hackle BTW.

Ok Lance Master Corporal I‘ll bite, which unit?


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan

The Argylls, during their pre deployment training in Jamacia in WWII.


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## Danjanou

I wonder if that‘s a piece of Regimental History that I‘d want known.   

I‘ll take your word for it, as I have no intention of checking it out. I can think of better things to do in Jamaica than look through the archives of the VD clinics.

Ok new question:

When, what, and, where was the "Battle of the Windmill?" (aka as the  "Battle of Windmill Point")


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## Michael OLeary

A few entries from a little database I have:

November 12, 1838 - Republican Colonel Nils von Schoultz leads 200 Canadian exiles and US sympathizers in an attack against Prescott; fights the four-day Battle of the Windmill against British regulars and the local Canadian militia. Von Schoultz, a Finn, runs his schooner Charlotte aground below Prescott, and takes up position in a 6-storey stone windmill and several stone houses nearby; Canadians send a small vessel, the Experiment, to cut Schoultz off from the US, while 700 militia start arriving from the surrounding counties and a force of 70 British marines comes downriver by steamer from Kingston; the militia drive the Hunters from the houses into the windmill the following day; on the 14th Col Henry Dundas arrives with 4 companies of the 83rd Regiment, 2 eighteen-pounders and a howitzer; the rebels surrender on the 16th.

November 14, 1838 - Col Henry Dundas arrives at Prescott, Ontario, with four companies of the 83rd Regiment, two eighteen-pounders and a howitzer, to attack Republican Colonel Nils von Schoultz and his 200 Canadian exiles and US sympathizers holed up in a 6-storey stone windmill; the rebels surrender on the 16th.

November 16, 1838 - Republican Colonel Nils Von Schoultz surrenders with 137 of his Hunters Lodge rebels after the four day battle of the Windmill at Prescott, Ontario; Hunters‘ losses estimated at 80, and British and Canadian losses were 16 dead and 60 wounded; Von Schoultz and 10 other men are later hanged at Kingston

Just my guess ;-)
Mike


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## Spr.Earl

From 1872 to 1978 the Mill served as a Lihgt House
Today, Windmill Point and Fort Wellington are preserved as historic sites by the Canadian Park Service.



An interesting footnote to this story is that Nils Szoltevcky, a Polish adventurer and former member of the French Foreign Legion,  was a mercenary member of the American force which fought at the Battle of the Windmill.  He was tried by Canada for breaking an "anti-mayhem" law as a result of his capture.  The Lawyer for the defense was none other than our first Prime Minister, Sir John A. MacDonald.  He lost that case and Szoltevcky as executed.


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## Danjanou

You guys are good, too good but I think I can stump you for more than a couple of hours. (Quick somebody cut off Mike O‘Leary‘s Internet access    ).

The plan was to attack Fort Henry, and free rebels from the earlier rebellions (1837) held there awaiting either trial or transportation. Then liberate the rather large stockpile of arms, and march on and capture Kingston. After that I guess it would just be a matter of time before the Brits abandoned the whole continent and we either joined the States or became an independant republic. Hey you have to admit that they were ambitious if nothing else.

Another interesting sidenote I found is that while technically 200 odd invaders were the remnants of William Lyon MacKenzie‘s Louis papineaus rebels from the previous year, more than one source suggests that less than 30 of them were actually British subjects (Canadians), the majority being American sympathizers and supporters. 

Mind one of them at his trial claimed that he had boarded the schooner crossing the river to locate someone who owed him money and subsequently became "accidentaly trapped" with the rebels on the Canadian side. the judge didn‘t believe him work and I think he ended up in Van Deimans Land with about 60 others from this skirmish.


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## Michael OLeary

OK, let‘s turn the tables. Since parachuting seems to be a favoured topic on the boards:

What year did the Canadian Army authorize the wearing of a parachute qualification badge? And for extra points: what three conditions were given by which the badge could be forfeited?


Mike


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] OK, let‘s turn the tables. Since parachuting seems to be a favoured topic on the boards:
> 
> What year did the Canadian Army authorize the wearing of a parachute qualification badge? And for extra points: what three conditions were given by which the badge could be forfeited?
> 
> 
> Mike [/qb]


a) Letting videotape from the hazing rituals make it into the public domain
b) Not looking pretty enough in a maroon beret
c) Inability to shoot accurately between the skirt and the flip-flops

Am I close?


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## Spr.Earl

First Wing‘s issued in 42 in England and the U.S. where the course‘s were run at Ringway‘s which to day is the International Air Port for Manchester and Ft Benning,as we sent two group‘s for the course.

#1-Cowerdess(sp. I are a lousy speller)
#2-Betraying the Para Code of Conduct?
#3-Refusing to Jumping?

The above three just a guess.


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## Michael OLeary

Not bad guesses Sapper.

The parachute Qualification Badge was authorized in General Order 2599 of 1942.

It could be forfeited for the following reasons:
a.  Refusing to make a parachute jump when ordered to do so in the course of his duties,
b.  Wilfully absenting himself without leave when a parachute jumping parade has been ordered with intent to avoid such parade; or
c.  On ceasing to be employed as a parachutist as a result of misconduct while doing duty with Air-borne troops.

Once forfeited, the badge could only be earned back after a minimum of three months and only after making the requiste five qualifying jumps to earn it back.

Mike


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## Spr.Earl

When the Allied Armies reached the Rhine River in Germany,what was the first thing the men did?


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## Gunner

Hmm, Gen Patton took a leak in the river, so I have to go with it.


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## Michael Dorosh

Churchill pissed in it too as I recall.

And at some point during Market Garden, two Brit paras wanted to be the first to "pee on Germany" so they stole off across the border to do so after landing.


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## Spr.Earl

Corecto Mundo Guy‘s!

When the allied armies reached the Rhine River in Germany, the first thing men did was pee in it. This was pretty universal, from the lowest private to Winston Churchill (who made a big show of it) and Gen. George Patton (who had himself photographed in the act.

Now let‘s the young and new have a go and us 
Cornucoipia of Knowlwdge sit back and help when needed       

O.K. here‘s another!

On D.Day Among the first "Germans" captured at Normandy what other Nationality were also captured ?

Us old fart‘s stay out      

After rethinking about my question I don‘t think any old Fart‘s will get


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## Danjanou

I resent being lumped in with the old farts and I do know the answer but will hold off for a bit.


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## stukirkpatrick

I seem to remember reading about this...were they czech?

I think that the SS trained a whole division of eastern europeans during that time...


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## mattoigta

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick S J E:
> [qb] I seem to remember reading about this...were they czech?
> 
> I think that the SS trained a whole division of eastern europeans during that time... [/qb]


Yeah I think that‘s it.. I think there was alot of Eastern European units called "Ostruppen" or something like that


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## winchable

They were Korean!

They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for the German Army until they were captured by the US Army.

It couldn‘t be any wierder then that.


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## mattoigta

WHAT

does anyone have more on this?


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## winchable

I, to be honest don‘t have any more information on it.
It‘s just a piece of trivia I remember from a while back that I memorised simply because it was strange, but I am almost 100% sure it is correct.

I suppose it could be some kind of Urban Legend, but it is my answer regardless.

It doesn‘t sound too, too far fetched.
The Japanese conscripted many Koreans into service, the Japanese fought the Russians, the Russians fought the Germans and from there it‘s not too hard to see how it could‘ve happened.


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## fusilier955

Didnt the Germans do some kind of call to arms before the war started encouraging those of German origin to enlist?  Does it have something to do with that?  Maybe a little hint please...


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## Michael OLeary

There are reports of Mongolian soldiers being captured during the Normandy invasion, but I have seen no referencers to Koreans.

These pages refer:
  http://bbll.com/army/photos.html  

  http://www.508pir.org/pdf_files/Sackenheim-part2.pdf  

  http://www.6juin1944.com/veterans/mckee.php  

Mike


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## winchable

I think when they say "Mongolian" on that page that are using it in more of a general sense to describe a certain ethnic group of Asians that could include Koreans, Japanese etc. , 
I remember them being described as Koreans before, but perhaps I could be wrong about their nationality altogether!


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## Danjanou

Wow you learn something every day. I would have gone with the Russian and/or East Europeans as an answer. 

Ok next question:

What (or who) was Habbakuk?


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## mattoigta

the guy who works at the Pizza Pizza by my house


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## stukirkpatrick

*the internet is a beautiful thing*...would that be the HMS Habbakuk?  The hypothetical British Aircraft carrier deemed ‘unsinkable‘ by U-boats because it would be made of ice?  They apparently were going to build it in Canada...

Sounds like our kind of ship eh?   

They must have been quite desparate for ideas back then...


----------



## Danjanou

Well that one lasted less than an hour. Correct it is the pizza guy.    

Yeah during WWII some bright eyed navy staff type came up with the idea of building an aircraft carrier out of an iceberg for ASW use in the Battle of the Atlantic. Remember there was a gap in the middle of the ocean that couldn‘t be covered by land based aircraft from either England or North America.

Actually it wouldn‘t have been just ice but some sort of composite ice and sawdust with walls and bulkheads 40 feet thick! The thing would have been enourmous and capable of handling twin engined aircraft. 

It was to have been propelled by 26 seperate electric engine nacelles attached to the "hull."

Fortunately by 1943, there were sufficient escort carriers to cover the gap and the project was abandoned.

Hey weren‘t the Canadian Alliance suggesting we get a carrier in their last white paper? Hope none of them come across this. Mind at least the beer would be cold in the mess.


----------



## Danjanou

Ok now that I‘m home and safely among my reference books (what you thought I had all this stuff memorised?), here‘s some other fascinating facts on the Iceberg carrier from  *Warships 1860-1970* by J.M. Thorton.

Habbakuk was to have been 2,000 feet long and weighed 2,000,000 tons. The mixture of ice and wood pulp that it was to be made of was called "pykrette." Special refrigeration machinery was to be used to keep the "ship" permenantly frozen.

For comparison on the size there an average WWII fleet carrier would have wieghed in at about 30,000-45,000 tons and the largest constructed the IJN Shinano (built on the hull of a Yamamato class Battleship) weighed in at 71,890 tons. 

Anyone got another question to add?


----------



## Michael OLeary

During the South African War Private A.W. Belyea of D Company of the Second (Special Service) Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment was court martialed. What was his crime, and what was his sentence? What was the maximum penalty that could have been awarded by the Court?

Mike


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Che:
> [qb] They were Korean!
> 
> They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for the German Army until they were captured by the US Army.
> 
> It couldn‘t be any wierder then that. [/qb]


Among the first "Germans" captured at Normandy were several Koreans. They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and then forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and further forced to fight for the German Army until they were captured by the U.S. Army.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] During the South African War Private A.W. Belyea of D Company of the Second (Special Service) Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment was court martialed. What was his crime, and what was his sentence? What was the maximum penalty that could have been awarded by the Court?
> 
> Mike [/qb]


RCR?  Did it involve a chicken?   If it‘s the one I‘m thinking of, the sentence would have been halved had the chicken at least been of the opposite sex.


----------



## Bill Smy

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] Michael OLeary, weren‘t you the dude that wrote about it for the Doctrine journal??
> 
> That was too easy - and of course you (and Danjanou, who answered via email) are correct.  Now how about this - what was the next newest, ie the one awarded immediately before the PLF‘s honour for Arnhem?  It was within the last couple of decades.  Two other hints
> 
> a) the regiment it was awarded to still exists
> b) it was to an infantry regiment
> 
> I hope it is the one I am thinking of, but hey, maybe I‘ll learn something too if I am wrong. [/qb]


----------



## Bill Smy

Was it The Lincoln and Welland Regiment?


----------



## Michael OLeary

Well done Mike, and yes, it did happen to involve a chicken:

"There had been an incident on the march that could have had tragic results. Two British officers had seen Private A.W. Belyea of D Company [of the Second (Special Service) Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment] grab a stray chicken that crossed his path. Looting was anathema to the army, and Belyea was court-martialled. To set an example for the troops the brigade was formed up in a hollow square to hear the verdict. For poor Belyea the ordeal was terrifying as he stood alone, head bowed, awaiting the decision of the court. The verdict was hardly in doubt, and the offence could draw the death penalty. The officers who made up the court realized the maximum punishment did not fit the crime. Belyea was confined to barracks for 56 days, a meaningless punishment on the veldt. (From a related footnote - ...Capt S.M. Rogers, who commanded D Company, told his men, "Now listen, boys, it wasn‘t for stealing the chicken that [Belyea] was going to be hung, it was for getting caught at it, so watch yourself.")" - Brian A. Reid, Our Little Army in the Field; The Canadians in South Africa 1899-1902, 1996


Mike


----------



## Michael OLeary

Perhaps something a little easier:

What cast member of a popular 1960s science fiction television series was a Forward Obervation Officer with 13th Field Regiment in Normandy?

Mike


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] Perhaps something a little easier:
> 
> What cast member of a popular 1960s science fiction television series was a Forward Obervation Officer with 13th Field Regiment in Normandy?
> 
> Mike [/qb]


From a Herbie to Engineer.   

James Doohan (Scotty)


----------



## Gunner

****...just missed that one.

Scotty‘s a Gunner


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Ok, how about this - Don Cherry is a son of a gunner.  What did his dad do, and when?

Bonus question - Cherry played in a civilian pipe band for several years - what instrument did he play?


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] Ok, how about this - Don Cherry is a son of a gunner.  What did his dad do, and when?
> 
> Bonus question - Cherry played in a civilian pipe band for several years - what instrument did he play? [/qb]


Well I‘m stumped   
All‘s I get is hockey or the Jazz trumpeter from Okl.


----------



## Gunner

Unfortunately so am I. I was aware that his father was a gunner as 1 RCHA presented him with a Regimental Hockey jersey a couple of years ago.  I‘m sure the information is in his biography but I don‘t have a copy right now.  Point to Michael.


----------



## Art Johnson

Does it have anything to do with Conn Smythes unit?

While we are on sports, which NHL coach‘s father served in the 15th Bn CEF.


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] Ok, how about this - Don Cherry is a son of a gunner.  What did his dad do, and when?
> 
> Bonus question - Cherry played in a civilian pipe band for several years - what instrument did he play? [/qb]


Well Michael,we his still waiting fgor the answer.
Put us out of our missery  :crybaby:  

What‘s the answer???


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] Ok, how about this - Don Cherry is a son of a gunner.  What did his dad do, and when?
> 
> Bonus question - Cherry played in a civilian pipe band for several years - what instrument did he play? [/qb]


Well Michael,we his still waiting for the answer!
Put us out of our missery  :crybaby:  

Whaaaat‘s the answer???


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Well to be honest, I am not sure if it was Connie Smythe‘s unit - the elder Cherry was in the RCHA, and I don‘t think Smythe was.  He served during the First World War.

Don Cherry played tenor drum when he belonged to a civvie pipe band in Ontario.


----------



## Art Johnson

You are right Michael but Conn Smythe also served in WW II. He commanded an Artillery Battery I believe it was refered to as the Sportsmans Battery.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

I do remember Smythe being wounded in Normandy - and lambasting the Canadian government about conscription and the lack of reinforcements in France in 1944.

There was an article about an NHL goalie in recent years who was also a Lieutenant Colonel in the reserves.  Anyone want to tell me his name?


----------



## Gunner

LCol Ed Staniowski from the Royal Regina Rifles.  He is a heck of a good fellow and could have gone a long way in the Regular Force.  He served in Cyprus and Croatia (Medak with 2 PPCLI).

Maple Leaf Article on Ed


----------



## Danjanou

This thing has taken on a life of it's own. Keep the questions, and more important the nice detailed answers coming guys.

Here's another:

At the battle of Queenston Heights, October 13, 1812, several local â Å“Canadian militia companies were present and assisted the British regulars in repelling the American invaders. 

Captain Robert Runchey commanded one such company. What was unique about this militia company?


----------



## mattoigta

I believe it was known as the Coloured Corps


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Ooh ooh!  I just was reading about this battle!  

This militia company was composed of people of African descent, including many escaped slaves.  The condition of their corps‘ creation was that they would be officered by a white man, the aforementioned captain robert runchey.  And this was 50 years before the 54th Massachusetts reg too!      However, it disappeared after the war.

-I have been reading a lot on the war of 1812, from both points of view, out of interest and a possible essay for school


----------



## stukirkpatrick

A new question, in the war of 1812, who were the ‘bloody boys‘ and what famous canadian icon is tied to their tale?


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick S J E:
> [qb] A new question, in the war of 1812, who were the ‘bloody boys‘ and what famous canadian icon is tied to their tale? [/qb]


James FitzGibbon was born in Ireland in 1781. At age 17 he joined the, British army.Later James FitzGibbon received permission to form a group of men to harrass the American army in Upper Canada, they became known as the Green Tigers or the Bloody Boys. 

Laura Secord helped him by warning him about the Amercain‘s surprise attack at the Battle of Beaver Dams.Later, he was the one that took Laura Secord in after her husband John died.


----------



## Spr.Earl

In WW2 who killed the first German?
The first American?


----------



## Danjanou

Scarlino and Kirkpatrick are correct, and Spr Earl stole my next question.

Captain Rober Runchey was a British regular officer and the official name of the Company was _Captain Runchey's Company of Coloured Men _ ( they weren't very PC in those days) also known as the _Coloured Corps_

There are few concrete facts known about The Coloured Corps, but it is thought that the regiment is rooted with a man called Richard Pierpont. 

Pierpont was a native of Africa and was sold into slavery at a young age. He appears to have won his freedom by fighting for the British in the American Revolutionary War. He was subsequently granted land near St. Catherines in Upper Canada, and became a prosperous farmer. 

As an older man, it seems that Pierpont petitioned the Upper Canadian Legislature in 1812 to form a black regiment to fight in the conflict against the Americans. His request was granted with the condition that the commanding officer would be a white man, and it was decided that Captain Robert Runchey would lead the corps. Pierpont himself joined on as a private though he was already at least sixty years of age. 

The unit consisted of about fifty men from the Niagara region, many of whom had escaped slavery in the United States and were surviving as labourers or indentured servants. The men definitely saw action at Queenston Heights, fighting alongside John Norton's Iroquois force against Winfield Scott's Americans who occupied the heights. 

The unit was formally embodied into the militia as The Corps of Articifers in the spring of 1813, but seems to have been relegated to non-combat support. The unit was to be used solely as a labour force to construct defenses at Burlington and Fort George. It did see action manning the guns when Americans attacked the fort in May of 1813. Nothing else is known about their subsequent participation in the war. 

Records show that the unit was retired from service in the spring of 1815

Oh BTW, the Bloody Boys was indeed the nickname of the irregular force recruited by Lt. Fitzgibbon, but they were not called the Green Tigers. So who can tell me what unit ( and why) had that nickname.

Also two questions about the redoutable Fitzgibbon. How did he get his commisson? What other famous "battle" after the War of 1812 was he involved in?


----------



## Danjanou

Kirkpatrick ( and anyone else) here's a couple of War of 1812 sites worth looking at.

 http://www.galafilm.com/1812/ 

 http://www.warof1812.ca/charts/regts_na.htm


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Thanks for the links!

As for the Green Tigers, they were the 49th Regiment, which figured prominently in the first part of the battle of Queenston Heights, and was Brock‘s own Regiment.  Fitzgibbon drew his Bloody Boys, 50 volunteers, from this unit.


----------



## Spr.Earl

Danjanou Re; Next question.
Great Mind‘s Think a Like


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] Danjanou Re; Next question.
> Great Mind‘s Think a Like      [/qb]


In WW2 who killed the first German?
The first American?


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Gunner:
> [qb] LCol Ed Staniowski from the Royal Regina Rifles.  He is a heck of a good fellow and could have gone a long way in the Regular Force.  He served in Cyprus and Croatia (Medak with 2 PPCLI).
> 
> Maple Leaf Article on Ed [/qb]


Gunner is he still in?


----------



## Gunner

As far as I know he is still in.  He‘s only 50 so he has a number of years left and he is too good a man to let go. It wouldn‘t surprise me to see him as the next Comd 38 CBG.

Last I heard he was working in Wpg..something to do with SHIRBRIG.


----------



## Art Johnson

No takers on my question of the NHL coach who‘s father served with the 15th Bn CEF? Hint he coached the Sabres for awhile. 

Try this one. Name the player and the team he played for in the CFL who joined the RCAF during WW II became a pilot and was shot down and wounded?


----------



## fusilier955

Who was the last Canadian killed in WWII?  And on what day and month did it occur?


----------



## Art Johnson

Lt. Robert Hampton Gray VC, 
August 9th 1945


----------



## fusilier955

Good stuff, we should change the name of this thread to "QUESTION OF THE HOUR"


----------



## Danjanou

Correct kirkpatrick (peeking at those links I posted weren‘t ya    ).

The 49th Regiment of the Line (Hertfordshire) was commonly known as the Green Tigers  because their facing colours were green and for their ferocity in battle.

The regiment served throughout Upper Canada during the war at Queenston Heights, Fort George, Stoney Creek, Beaver Dams, Crysler‘s Farm, Plattsburg. In fact as far as I can tell only the 8th (Kings) and 41st (Welsh) were in more engagements among the regular British units.

Several members of the unit did volunteer to join Fitzgibbon's irregulars, as did members of the Provincial Dragoons and local militia (needed for their local expertise and contacts). The Bloody Boys operated behind the lines during the brief period when the Americans overran and held part of the Niagara Peninsula. They're main opponents were a similar group of Canadian renegades fighting on the American side.

Still waiting for an answer on my Fitzgibbon question(s).

Also there are quite a few other questions â Å“in playâ ? still. Let's see some answers, or those who posted them put us out of our misery and post the answers.

Oh yeah we're not changing this to Question of the Hour. That'll just encourage some out there to post new questions every minute, and eventually the title will be â Å“Question of the Nano-Second.â ?     

Besides it has a nice irreverent ring to it.


----------



## Art Johnson

OK Boss, the answer to my first question is "Punch Imlach". The answere to the second question is "Tony Golab" of the Ottawa Rough Riders. I guess I am too old for most of the people on this board and maybe should refrain from posting questions.


----------



## Danjanou

Art you‘re not too old. Hey I‘m old enough to remember Punch, I just didn‘t make the connection.


----------



## Art Johnson

Try this one. Which famous Canadian runner who was wounded twice and once thought to have been KIA served in the 107th Pioneer Bn CEF.


----------



## winchable

Contracted servants, I‘m assuming that means they were payed rather then slaves.


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] In WW2 who killed the first German?
> The first American? [/qb]


No Idea‘s?


----------



## mattoigta

the war?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Indiana Jones!

not a clue...but I want to know!


----------



## Danjanou

> What are indentured servants


The P.C. way of saying slaves. remember Upper Canada had abolished the institution of slavery years earlier.

Actually one of my ancestors was an "indentured servant" in Pennsylvania prior to the American Revolution. Caught stealing heep in Scotland and transported to the colonies as punishment.


----------



## Danjanou

Guys love the hard ones, cause they‘re stumping me too. Give it a couple of days though and post the answers....please.

Ok another (easy) one:

Who or what were the "sixbits"?


----------



## Art Johnson

Gee I was an indentured apprentice under the laws of the province of Ontario, I guess I wasn‘t bright enough to relise I was a paid slave.


----------



## jimbunting

CHE:


" Indentured service " was not quite slavery. Here is how it worked......a youngster would be taken in to learn a trade, by a master in a trade such as a capenter, mason, wheelwright, or black smith, for a set period of years. In return for their labour, they were fed and housed and clothed. At the end of their service they could continue to work with their master, or set out on their own.

This system allowed children from poor families to have at least some chance to become educated in a way to make a living for themselves, in the days before formal education was universal. BTW, the indentured servant sysytem was NOT based on skin colour, but on class, and poverty. 

Females were restricted to work as household servants, such as cooks and washer women, or seamstresses, and child care workers. Savings to be able to marry were scarce, and social class also restricted the indentured servants chances of moving up, thru marriage. Hard as it maybe to consider now, social stratification was ironclad, and marrying "above your station" was unusual, especially for young men.


----------



## winchable

I never said they were slaves that was Danjanou, Get him guys!
I figured that they were contracted servants meaning they got payed etc. I didn‘t know all of what Jim said however, so that is interesting.

I think the "Sixbits" is a march, but to be honest I have no idea who or what it is based on.


----------



## Danjanou

Thanks Jim, that‘s probably a better defintion than my brief (and almost witty one). I guess Art can breathe easier now. As you noted it was based on class not skin colour. Like I noted I had a Scottish ancestor who was one.

Che thanks for takin the bullet on that one bud. BTW you‘re wrong on the "sixbits" though, anyone got it?

I figure Boomer and FUBAR should know and that ws a whopping big hint.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Are you referring to USS CASSIOPEIA AK 75?
She was a US Navy run Liberty Ship operating the the South Pacific in the Second World War.

   http://www.friederich.net/bio.html


----------



## Art Johnson

"sixbits may refer to the 75th BN CEF.
The answer to my question about the runner is "Tom Longboat".


----------



## Danjanou

Art got it the 75th Bn were nicknamed "sixbits"
I guess from a quarter being called two bits and 3 quarters equals 75. Ok follow up question what present Infantry unit perpetuates the 75th.

I also noted that the Fizgibbon Question is still open so I‘ll let it run for another day or so and toss in the answer. Thanks art BTW for putting us out of our misery there. 

New Question (easy one):

A Canadian General in WWI was involved in a bit of a scandal back in Canada. Which General and what was the scandal.


----------



## Art Johnson

The Toronto Scotish Regiment perpetuates the 75th Bn CEF. 
General Currie the commander of the Canadian Corps
became involved in money shortages and was rescued by some of his subordinate commanders in the 1st Canadian Corps


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] In WW2 who killed the first German?
> The first American? [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> No Idea‘s? [/qb]
Click to expand...

The first German serviceman killed in World War II was killed by the Japanese (China, 1937), the first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians (Finland 1940).


----------



## Spr.Earl

What was the name of the Bomber in the R.C.A.F. who brought her crews home for a record of 128 times by the end of the War.(WW2)


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] What was the name of the Bomber in the R.C.A.F. who brought her crews home for a record of 128 times by the end of the War.(WW2) [/qb]


Friday the 13th.

next


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Wow.  I puzzled over that one for a while, with some frantic searching, but only came up with that other famous lancaster, with the pilot, Mynarski, who posthumously won the VC for saving his gunner‘s life when he was shot down.

Anyone else have any questions?  This thread has been pretty dead over the last few days.

oh, and I looked up those Fitzgibbon questions, apparently  As Adjutant-General of Militia he led the forces against William Lyon Mackenzie in the rebellion of 1837!

And Fitzgibbon received his commission from General Brock, who saw his good qualities, at a time when most other officers ‘bought‘ their commisions...arrgh what messed up times.


----------



## Danjanou

Bingo Kirkpatrick (and it‘s not dead i‘ve just been busy telling funny stories to franko at another thread, and according to some harrasing some poor nintendo wannabes at another site along with infanteer, Dorosh and a few other meanies     )

All right a three parter.

Name the first Canadian to be awarded a VC, the last, and the youngest.


----------



## W. Hall

William Hall V.C. the first Nova Scotian, first Canadian and the First Man of colour to win the Empire‘s highest award for valour." 
Born at Horton, Nova Scotia April 28th, 1821. Died at Avonport Nova Scotia August 27th, 1904. On November 16th, 1857, when serving in H.M.S. Shannon, Hall was part of a crew under command of a Lieutenant which placed a 24 pounder gun near the angle of the Shah Nujjiff at Lucknow, when all but the Lieutenant and Hall were either killed or wounded. Hall with utter disregard for life kept loading and firing the gun until the wall had been breached and the relief of Lucknow had been assured. His great pride was his British Heritage. Above the plaque, there is a replica of a Victoria Cross cast in bronze. 

More info on this at:http://www.stemnet.nf.ca/monuments/ns/hantsport2.htm


----------



## Veteran`s son

Was Sgt. Thomas Ricketts the youngest Victoria Cross winner? He won the VC during WW1.


----------



## Veteran`s son

I believe that the last Canadian to win the Victoria Cross was Lt. Robert Hampton Gray; he won it during WW2 in 1945.


----------



## Art Johnson

Actually P/O Mynarski was an Air gunner and attempted to save the tail gunner of his plane unfortunately he was unable to get by the flames. Ironically the plane crashed and the tail gunner survived.


----------



## mattoigta

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> The first German serviceman killed in World War II was killed by the Japanese (China, 1937), the first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians (Finland 1940). [/qb]
Click to expand...

details?


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Pte. Scarlino:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> The first German serviceman killed in World War II was killed by the Japanese (China, 1937), the first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians (Finland 1940). [/qb]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> details? [/qb]
Click to expand...

The question was just one of those trivia thing‘s that stay with you and I forget the detail‘s of both and only remember that both were Exchange Officer‘s and were killed by thier host‘s.

Friendly Fire Aint


----------



## Spr.Earl

Who said; 
"There is no such thing as a bad Soldier,only bad General‘s"?


----------



## Danjanou

Ok quick update on the three part VC question. Two of the three names posted aerlier are correct, and no I‘m not telling which is the wrong one.


----------



## Michael OLeary

> Who said;
> "There is no such thing as a bad Soldier, only bad Generals"?


I believe it was Napoleon, though it‘s been often reiterated.

Mike


----------



## Gunner

I thought Napolean was credited with "there are no bad regiments, only bad colonels"


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who said;
> "There is no such thing as a bad Soldier, only bad Generals"?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it was Napoleon, though it‘s been often reiterated.
> 
> Mike [/qb]
Click to expand...

Yup that‘s what my book say‘s.

Next


----------



## Michael OLeary

Let‘s bring back a Canadian context; where can the following inscription be found:

"TO THE VALOUR OF THEIR CONTRYMEN IN THE GREAT WAR AND IN MEMORY OF THEIR SIXTY THOUSAND DEAD THIS MONUMENT IS RAISED BY THE PEOPLE OF CANADA."


----------



## stukirkpatrick

The Vimy Memorial, in France.      

edit - I almost said Ottawa War Memorial, until I realized that the inscription sounded too much like it was written in a place other than canada.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Perhaps that was too easy. So, another in the same vein. 

On the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier there are four symbols: laurel leaves, maple leaves, a poppy and a medieval sword. What is the meaning of each of these symbols?

Also: What other symbol, in three versions, is also on the tomb?


----------



## winchable

I have an answer to the second question, still working on the first.

The symbol is the Silver cross, The three crosses differ in that each one has a different Royal Cipher; One belonging to King George V, The other belonging to King George VI, and the final belonging to Queen Elizabeth II.
The significance of these royals is that they were the three monarchs since the cross‘s inception.

Edit-The Silver Cross is also known as the memorial cross, it is awarded to the families of soldiers who fall in battle.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] On the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier there are four symbols: laurel leaves, maple leaves, a poppy and a medieval sword. What is the meaning of each of these symbols?
> [/qb]


Here is my WAG

Laurel leaves - symbol of nobility
Maple leaves - symbol of Canada
Poppy - symbol of sacrifice in War
Medieval sword - symbol of a crusade


----------



## winchable

I was under the impression that the Laurel leaves were a more solemn symbol, of victory or death..something along those lines.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Not bad, the four symbols are as follows:

Laurel leaves, symbolizing both victory and death.
Maple leaves, symbolizing Canada.
Medieval sword, symbolizing courage.
Poppy, symbol of sacrifice and remembrance.

And Che is correct regarding the three versions of the Memorial Cross.

Mike


----------



## Michael OLeary

On 24 July 1908, what major event was staged by the Canadian Army, and of what celebrations was it part?


----------



## Spr.Earl

In 1778 who was to lead an Invasion of Canada?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

Just a wild guess off the top of my head, but was it benedict arnold?

I caught that A&E movie, and he apparently tried to take Montreal.


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
> [qb] Just a wild guess off the top of my head, but was it benedict arnold?
> 
> I caught that A&E movie, and he apparently tried to take Montreal. [/qb]


No.


----------



## Michael OLeary

> In 1778 who was to lead an Invasion of Canada?


"By October 1778 the young Marquis de Lafayette, a French noblemen who had taken service in the Continental army [of the United States], had concocted a vast scheme whereby he would lead five thousand American troops north in the spring of 1779 and seize Montreal."

This was to be followed by the seizure of Quebec, then Halifax, and then Newfoundland.

"Washington was afraid that once France regained Canada, the French government might find it ‘impracticable to withdraw.‘ So Congress agreed to cancel the whole plan in January 1779, and it was never discussed again."

(The Defence of Canada; Gwynne Dyer and Tina Viljoen; 1990)


----------



## Spr.Earl

That‘s it you can‘t play anymore   

Marquis de Lafayette and the Invasion that wasn‘t

Bruce Ricketts

The Marquis de Lafayette was an interesting guy.  He created the tricolour flag for France in 1789.  He joined the Americans during the War of independence.  He became a close friend of George Washington.  And he led a planned invasion of Canada... an invasion that never took place.  
Marie Joseph Paul Yves Roche Gilbert du Motier, the Marquis de Lafayette, was born in in France in 1757.  He grew up as an adventurer and a romantic and longed for a "just cause".

When Lafayette learned of the struggle of the Americans in their endeavor to secure their independence, he resolved to come to the colonies to aid them as a volunteer. He had the backing of Silas Deane, the US representative to France, who was charged to recruit young French officers for the US. (Deane was later recalled by the US under a cloud of suspicion that he accepted kick-backs from the French thrill-seekers.) 

Lafayette landed near Charleston, South Carolina on June 13, 1777, presented his Deane-introduction letter stating that he was to be a General in the US Army and was welcomed with great hospitably. He proceeded to Philadelphia and was welcomed by Congress.  Who wouldn‘t welcome someone who was willing to serve in the army without pay?

Since Lafayette represented the highest rank of French nobility and his motives were so patriotic in the American cause, the Congress commissioned him a Major General on the 31st of July, 1777. Later that summer Lafayette met General George Washington and a friendship developed between the two men which lasted as long as Washington lived.  All this, and Lafayette was not even 20 years old!

(Lafayette hated the slave trade in America; it was one of the few things about the Revolution that he couldn‘t abide, and was tireless in his criticism of slavery and its proponents.  Lafayette‘s unyielding views on slavery had a tremendous effect on Washington, who ultimately freed the slaves at Mount Vernon upon his death, due in part to Lafayette‘s influence.)  

Lafayette was a member of Washington‘s staff and during the Battle of the Brandywine.  He participated in the closing part of the battle when he was wounded in the leg.  He rejoined the American forces after recovering from his wound.

As Lafayette was making his meteoric rise in Washington‘s Army another US General, Horatio Gates, was taking notice.  Gates was not a fan of Washington nor of Lafayette.  In October of 1777, Gates was appointed the President of the War Board.  In this position he created an assignment for Lafayette to head up an small army that was supposed to invade Canada.  Gates planned the whole affair without the knowledge of Washington.  Washington got wind of the plan only when Lafayette approached him carrying his "commission" from Gates.

On February 17, 1778, Lafayette rode to Albany New York, where the invasion was being staged.  He was appalled at what he saw.  There were too few troops. Those who were there were poorly equipped.  Most importantly, there was wide spread derision over the plan to prosecute the invasion during the winter months.  And what‘s more, the British and Canadians were expecting the invasion.

Lafayette wrote to Washington stating; "I am sent, with a great noise, at the head of the army to do great things. The whole continent, France, and what is the worst, the British army will be in expectation."

In March of 1778, the invasion plan was postponed and eventually discarded.

In 1781, following a glorious career in the US Army, Lafayette returned to France.  His only visit back to the US was in 1825 at the invitation of the US government. The Marquis de Lafayette  died in 1834 in France.


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] On 24 July 1908, what major event was staged by the Canadian Army, and of what celebrations was it part? [/qb]


Looks like this got left behind on the last page.

Bump to the new page for those that missed it.


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] On 24 July 1908, what major event was staged by the Canadian Army, and of what celebrations was it part? [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like this got left behind on the last page.
> 
> Bump to the new page for those that missed it. [/qb]
Click to expand...

Victoria‘s Jubilee?


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## Gunner

Queen Victoria died in 1901 and King Edward was well on the throne by 1908.


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## Art Johnson

The Tercentary Celebrations of Quebec City, the 48th Highlanders were there.

www.dileas.mapleleafup.org


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## Michael OLeary

Well done Art.

"July 24th [1908] was the climax of the military participation in the Tercentenary celebrations [of the founding of Quebec], a grand review on the plains of Abraham. A rehearsal on the day before was followed by a parade through the streets of Quebec so that poorer people, unable to take their place in the grandstands, would have a small share of the military excitement. The practice showed the limitations of the ground -it was rough and too small for the assembled host -and staff officers worked through he night to make new dispositions for the review. Long before dawn on the 24th, ferries were busy carrying men from Levis. Columns of infantry, cavalry and artillery clattered through the streets of the city and tramped along dusty roads while staff officers fussed with self-importance. Fortunately Otter could relax: the crucial arrangements were in the hands of Colonel Willoughby Gwatkin, a cool, intelligent British staff officer well launched on his long Canadian career. 

By the time Otter reached the plains the early morning mists were being burned off by the sun, the last troops were in place and the stands were packed. Colonel Lessard trotted up to hand over the parade state: 12,422 men, 2,134 horses, 26 guns, with an additional 2,400 sailors and marines from the visiting warships. At 10.00 a.m., the royal party arrived; the bearded Prince in a general ‘s uniform, Lord Roberts in the full dress of a field marshal. Next .came the inspection, with Otter leading the party down the long ranks of troops. To his delight he picked out the medical orderlies, standing idly behind the ranks: despite the heat, that meant that few, if any, of his men had collapsed. At the reviewing stand the Prince of wales dismounted to present Laurier with a cheque for $450,000, the amount so far collected for the battlefield memorial. Now the march-past could begin. 

It took an hour and a half for the long line of sailors, marines, gunners, cavalrymen and infantry to pass the reviewing stand. The crowd burst into special applause for the sailors, the little unit of Royal Military College cadets, the Mounted Police and the newest permanent force unit, Lord Strathcona‘s Horse. Twice Lord Roberts trotted out to lead troops past the Prince of wales -first the artillery, then Otter‘s old regiment, the Queen‘s Own. He was colonel- in-chief of both. Gradually, as the lines passed before him, Otter could relax. There would be no mishap, no humiliating confusion. He could spare a thought for the rural battalions, marvelling at their transformation during his militia years. At the end of the column came the Royal Canadian Regiment. To the Prince, puzzled that regular troops should march in the junior position, Otter explained: "I wanted the tail to be equal to the head." 

When the parade had passed, two batteries of permanent force artillery, the newly redesignated Royal Canadian Horse Artillery, formed up at one end of the field. At a command, whips cracked and the two batteries suddenly raced across the field, harness jingling, limbers and guns leaping over the uneven ground. At the far end, the teams twisted and, in a cloud of dust, came hurtling back. The crowd leaped to its feet, shouting itself hoarse with excitement. The review was over. Otter urged his horse forward, riding out to meet his troops. As he moved toward the huge mass of scarlet, rifle green and navy blue, the significance of the parade state figures struck him: he commanded more men than the armies of Wolfe and Montcalm combined."

(Desmond Morton, The Canadian General Sir William Otter, 1974)


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## Spr.Earl

What colour was the the White House before the War of 1812.
Before we set fire to it.   

Us old fart‘s and Cornucopia of Knowledge not answer!!  :threat: 

Let‘s let the young‘n‘s get a chance to answer.


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## Spr.Earl

What! not even a  guess out there?


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## Gunner

Pale gray sandstone...


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## GGHG_Cadet

Well there wasn‘t a white house back then, it was called the presidents house. The building was first made white with lime-based whitewash in 1798, when its walls were finished, simply as a means of protecting the porous stone from freezing. Why the house was subsequently painted I don‘t know.


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## Gunner

> Why the house was subsequently painted I don‘t know.


Ummm, the fire?


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## GGHG_Cadet

No I was talking about when the building was first built. It‘s original colour was white and I don‘t know why it was. Sorry to confuse you


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## Duotone81

Great thread! 

Now with the pleasantries out of the way....

How many casualties were there in the war between the US and the British Empire over the ownership of the San Juan Island off the coast of Oregon in 1859?


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## Enzo

Duo, there was 1 casualty, and he tasted GREAT!


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## Enzo

And San Juan Island is north of Puget Sound in between Vancouver Island and Washington State. You can see it easily from the Pat Bay Highway as you travel to Sidney, BC.

I should know.


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## Duotone81

Congrats Enzo!!! Tell him what he‘s won Johnny!!

Well Bob Enzo has the choice between what‘s behind door number 3 and the mystery box. What‘ll it be?


----------



## winchable

Nono, it‘s a choice between the boat and the mystery box.

Here‘s one, it‘s a three parter:

What special forces unit operated in Northern Burma during the war against Japan?
What was the name of the major offensive said unit took, and what was the name of the leader of that unit who died in the offensive?


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## Art Johnson

The Chindits

Operation Thursday

Maj./Gen. Orde Wingate DSO


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## Enzo

Well Bob, I‘ll have to go with uhmm... door #3, no wait! The box, yeah, yeah, the box. Hold onasec, maybe I should go with the door, there could be something bigger behind the door, so I‘ll have to go with the door. Unless it‘s a mule, like the one from the Budweiser ads -having a talking mule around the house would be soooo cool, but then he‘d piss me off with all that whining. Stupid mule!! I‘ll have to go for the box, yeah, small shiny objects could be held in the box and I do so like small shiny objects. Definitely the box. Always go for a small box    Unless there‘s a car behind that door, someone did mention something about a car, maybe it‘s a car, do you think its a car Bob? I‘ll have to say the door, yep, the door. That‘s it for me, that door.

...

...

NOOO!!! I can‘t drive! What the **** would I do with a new car?! Insurance payments, gas payments, beautiful women would only talk to me because of my car and then I‘d have to talk back to them, resulting in a responsibilities as I‘d have to make sure it was clean, implying that I‘d have to make sure "I" was clean and that means having to buy new clothes which would dip into my Pokemon budget and then this would all lead to dinners, movies, nights out on the town and then, then, then...

... a sleepover!!

How would that work? I‘d have to read books or watch "Sex in the City" to figure out what to do with a woman and that would mean less time playing Battlefield 1942 (which is difficult enough as it is seeing as how I own a Mac?!?) which I currently do in my head! Do you see the pressure you‘re placing upon me BOB!! How would you like it if I gave you a choice of rewards?

"Bob, you can either choose to march up and down this parade square all afternoon, or you can go to the moving pictures!"

It isn‘t so easy is it Bobby! I‘m going to have to use a lifeline, I‘m going to 50/50 this one Bob. So take one of these choices away and then allow me to use another lifeline so that I can phone a friend and see what he says.

(ring)(ring) "Hello?"

"Hey Paul, it‘s me, I need some advice, I can choose a gift from either a door or a box, depending upon which is remaining after they take one of those choices away, which will leave me the decision of having to decide whether or not to accept the remaining prize as a gift or should I then declare this as a work related expense?"

"Are you being recorded?"

"Yep, I‘m on TV!    "

"AND you called me at home!"

"Sure, you‘re on my time now, aren‘t you? So you are available at all times, are you not? This prize may be tax deductible after my "contribution" (wink)"

"Alright, now, as I told Alphonse, when it comes to prizes, gifts or contracts, you need to make certain that it‘s the best choice for you and your buddies. In a situation like this, I‘d have to say that you should allow Bob to "present" you with this "donation" in order to be able to say that you did not canvass this item in any way. Anything else?"

"Yeah, how are those choppers coming along?"

"Uh, oh, those, uh, yeah, they‘ll be almost ready before you know it buds, I‘m going to have them shipped over by boat from Europe once the selection process is concluded."

"Cool, thanks."

You see Bob, your choice, what did I win??


----------



## winchable

THat‘s right art...Darn, I thought that question might hold up a tiny bit longer than 14 minutes.

Wow, Enzo took a question of the week, turned it into a monty python/air farce skit, that‘s gotta be worth some points.


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## Franko

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] What colour was the the White House before the War of 1812.
> Before we set fire to it.
> [/qb]


Although I love throwing around Yank tags to everyone I must point out something here.

Canadians did not burn down the White House. British Regulars from Halifax did it.

Canada wasn‘t even a seperate country back then...we were a dominion of the British Empire. Therefore the troops involved were Brit. Please don‘t try to sell the fact that militia were involved...they were not. They were busy elsewhere, in the Niagra region.

Regards

BTW...sorry for bursting the bubble gents


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## winchable

*sob* NOOO;

What is the name of the officer who was involved with the burning of the whitehouse, who is buried in Halifax?
For bonus points; at which graveyard?


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## Enzo

Major General Robert Ross, buried @ St. Paul‘s Church, Halifax, 29 September 1814.

Next?


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## Enzo

PS

In the Old Burying Ground to be precise


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## Michael OLeary

Born in Ireland, Robert Ross joined the 25th Foot in 1789, rising to command the regiment in 1803. A popular commander who shared his soldiers‘ hardships, he was promoted to major general in 1812. After several major engagements in the peninsular campaign of the Napoeleonic War, Ross was sent to North America in command of 4500 men, with a mission to draw attention from other theatres and to avenge recent American actions in Canada. 

On August 19, 1814, Ross landed at Benedict, about sixty miles from Washington. On August 24, in Bladensburg, Ross routed an American militia force and entered Washington that same evening. For two days, he British sacked and burned virtually every public building in Washington, including the White House. Ordered to march on Baltimore, Ross landed 12 miles away at North Point on September 12. In the vanguard as usual, Ross was shot from his horse and died before reaching the coast. His body was returned to Halifax for burial.

The inscription on his grave reads as follows: "Here on the 21st Sept. 1814, was consigned to the earth the body of MAJOR GENERAL ROSS who, having distinguished himself in all ranks in Eqypt, Italy, Portugal, Spain and America, was killed at the commencement of an action which resulted in the defeat and flight of the troops of the United States near Baltimore, on the 12th Sept. 1814. At Rostrevor, the seat of the family in Ireland, a monument worthy of his memory has been erected by the noblemen and gentlemen of his county, and the officers of a gallant army which, under his conduct, attacked and dispersed the American at Blandensburg, on the 24th Aug. 1814, and on the same day victoriously entered Washington, the capital of the U.S. In St. Paul‘s, a monument has also been erected to his memory by his country."


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] What colour was the the White House before the War of 1812.
> Before we set fire to it.
> [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> Although I love throwing around Yank tags to everyone I must point out something here.
> 
> Canadians did not burn down the White House. British Regulars from Halifax did it.
> 
> Canada wasn‘t even a seperate country back then...we were a dominion of the British Empire. Therefore the troops involved were Brit. Please don‘t try to sell the fact that militia were involved...they were not. They were busy elsewhere, in the Niagra region.
> 
> Regards
> 
> BTW...sorry for bursting the bubble gents [/qb]
Click to expand...

Franco,there was Canadian Militia along side the Royal Marines when the dasterdly deed was done.
Yes it was the Royal Marines who put it to the torch.
The reason why I said "we" as it‘s part of our History in regard‘s to the War of 1812.

The colour of the White House at the time was Pink.It was white washed to cover up the smoke stain‘s and has remained so ever since.
As far as I remember from my grade ? history lesson.


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## Spr.Earl

O.K.
New Question.
Who and what were the Papineau Battalion?
What did they do and what did they suffer after the fact?


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## wongskc

Volunteers who served in the Spainish civil war, just before WW2.  Other than that, my knowledge about them is sketchy.


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## stukirkpatrick

Were they not the Mackenzie-Papineau battalion?

 

Sadly, 1/2 were killed by the end of the civil war, with nothing to show for it (except for resisting facism).


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## Spr.Earl

Sorry yes the The MacKenzie-Papineau Battalion.
110% mark‘s!!

Taken from Edited Hansard 1820.
(Our Parliment)





The MacKenzie-Papineau Battalion, named after the leaders of the 1837 rebellion in Upper and Lower Canada, was made up of 1,300 Canadian volunteers who served in the international brigades to support the Republican government against the authority of fascist dictator General Franco during the Spanish Civil War, between 1936 and 1939. 

In spite of their sacrifices and their individual heroism, Canadian veterans of the international brigades are still not recognized as war veterans. As a result, they have never been eligible for veterans‘ benefits and, more importantly, their merit in defending the freedom and democracy that we, in Canada, enjoy and benefit from today was never recognized. 

The purpose of this motion is therefore to ask that official recognition be given to the courage of the men and women who did not wait for the government‘s formal approval to fight for our fundamental freedoms and against the horrors of fascism. These Canadians went to Spain, where they risked their lives alongside other brave people from around the world to fight for freedom and democracy. 

Unfortunately, the Spanish Republican forces and the international brigades, including the MacKenzie-Papineau Battalion, did not win that fight, but history tells us that the Spanish war was the prelude to the downfall of fascism at the end of World War II in Europe. It seems appropriate that these fighters and their willingness to fight for justice and democracy be recognized. 

Dare we ask? Why did Canada not accept to provide assistance to Spain at the time? Why did it pass the Foreign Enlistment Act on April 10, 1937, one year after the beginning of the Spanish Civil War? Why did Maurice Duplessis, on March 24, 1937, pass an act to protect the province against communistic propaganda, better known as the â Å“Padlock Actâ ?? Why this discrimination toward our soldiers when they came back? Why give the status of veterans to those who fought in the Vietnam war, but not those who did so in Spain? 

I will try to answer these questions from a historical perspective. It may be that, at the time, Canada was a British colony and England, like France, feared a second world war. It may be because the battalion‘s name was MacKenzie-Papineau, in memory of the 1837 rebellions in Upper and Lower Canada. As we know, these patriots yearned for freedom and democracy, something which may not have pleased Canadian royalists. 

Around 1835, Louis-Joseph Papineau, member of the Patriote Party, wanted a democratic and bilingual country open to free trade with the United States, a country where Church and State would be independent. At the time, each group had its own parliament. Members of parliament in both Upper and Lower Canada were elected, but they did not have any executive power. This power was exercised by the governor, who was appointed by London. This is the main reason why these rebellions took place. Quebec was hit first. Villages were burned, hundreds of people killed, 1,000 arrested, 108 tried, 60 deported, and 12 hanged. The authorities could have hit Upper Canada first, because the rebellions were just the same but, when it comes to reprimanding, history tells us that it takes place in Quebec. 

The federal Foreign Enlistment Act and Duplessis‘ Padlock Act were, to a large extent, adopted in response to requests from the clergy and the right wing. It was also to keep the Canadian right happy when these veterans returned home that they were subjected to job discrimination and RCMP surveillance, and turned down when they tried to enlist at the beginning of World War II. 

Finally, I do not understand why Canada recognizes veterans of the war in Vietnam but not the war in Spain. We had no more business being in Vietnam than we did in Spain. 

I followed with great interest the deliberations of the standing committee on veterans affairs in 1986 regarding the participation of Canadians in the Spanish Civil War, and the testimony shows that the sole interest of the veterans who appeared before the committee was to stop the progress of fascism and to defend the oppressed. History proved them right. The war in Spain was the prelude to World War II and the end of two dictators, Hitler and Mussolini.


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## Enzo

What was the sword of Damacles? (spelling most likely improper)


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## Michael OLeary

The Sword of Damocles


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] The Sword of Damocles [/qb]


There once was a king whose name was Dionysius. He was so unjust and cruel that he won himself the name of tyrant. He knew that almost everybody hated him, and so he was always in dread lest some one should take his life.

But he was very rich, and he lived in a fine palace where there were many beautiful and costly things, and he was waited upon by a host of servants who were always ready to do his bidding. 

Sound like any one we know?


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## Spr.Earl

Who was Col.Moody?


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## Michael OLeary

Colonel Moody


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## Michael OLeary

We all know of the Canadian Expeditionary Force‘s (CEF) service in Europe during the First World War, but where were some of the other locations that Canadian units served?


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## devil39

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> [qb] We all know of the Canadian Expeditionary Force‘s (CEF) service in Europe during the First World War, but where were some of the other locations that Canadian units served? [/qb]


The RCR went to Bermuda in 1914.

The PPCLI were not part of the CEF and joined the 27th Division, 80th Brigade composed of British Regular Force Rifle battalions.  The PPCLI were the only Canadian Infantry unit in a theatre of war in 1914.


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## Michael Dorosh

Siberia is one of the biggies, methinks.


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## Michael OLeary

Bermuda
Siberia

That takes care of the easy ones.


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## Michael Dorosh

They have seen action in the Jurgenburg mountains also, as well as the brigade in Greenland.

More info here:

 http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/NorthAmerica/Can/clf2k3reg.htm


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## Spr.Earl

CANADIAN SAPPER IN THE BRITISH "HUSH - HUSH"
"You have been specially selected for this adventurous expedition and is quite possible that you might be sacrificed on the altar of British prestige in the Caucasus Mountains".  So was the opening remarks of Col. Steele of the British War Office and the beginning of a little known unit called the "British Hush-Hush" or officially "Dunster Force". 
The force was made up of less than a thousand hand picked men throughout the Empire including 15 officers and 30 sergeants from the Canadian Corps.  In short, as Col. Steele carried on he was addressing "the flower of the British Army" based on their bravery, initiative and resource and Sjt. B. Clark of the Canadian Engineers was the only Canadian Sapper to serve with the unit.  Generally little is known of the Canadians that operated in Persia during the Great War but, their story reads of one from "Lawrence of Arabia" or "Arabian Nights" and how this determined little unit, equipped only with undaunted courage and limitless nerve, held 600 miles of front against an entire Turkish Amy and bluffed that Army to such an extent that it remained immobile for many months. 

The unit came into being as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution.  The Russian front, which had extended southward through the Caucasus Mountains, across the southern end of the Caspain Sea and down into Persia where it linked up with the Mesopotamian Force (prelude to Desert Storm), had now collapsed.  The Russians were crowding back home leaving a wide open corridor eastward to India but the British were expecting a German offensive in France, Allenby was completely occupied in Palestine, the Mesopotamian Army had no troops to spare.  With the situation at it‘s blackest hour, a War Office visionary had a brainstorm.  Somewhere in the mountains of Persia were thousands of enthusiastic Warriors who were more than willing to settle a few grudges with the Turks, so Dunster Force‘s mission would be to"Penetrate into the Caucasus Mountains, raise an army and use that army against the Turks" and their commander would be General L.C. Dunsterville, an officer who had already been immortalized as the "Stalky" in Rudyard Kipling‘s stories. 

It took over four months for the unit to reach the mountain range that divides Mesopotamia from Persia, transported part of the way by fellow Canadians serving with the Royal Engineer‘s inland water transport system.  The force was quick to recognize that their mission would not be an easy one as Persia had been devastated years before when the Russians and Turks turned the country side into a cockpit of ruined and deserted villages.  The mountains were the hideout of Kurdish Tribesmen who robbed and murdered unhindered along the hard and lonely passes.  Famine stalked grimly through the land.  The Persians were brutally indifferent to the sufferings of their fellow countrymen.  As Persians were dying by the thousands the store houses of the wealthier were bursting with grain giving no thought of the thousands who were dying of starvation.  Into this welter of disease and misery rode Dunster Force, before them rose the task of raising an army to combat the Turks, but first they were tasked to ease the sufferings of the locals by setting up supply lines and providing escorts for the thousands who fled their homes. 

With the British scattered throughout the mountains in various outposts they hastily organized a protective rear guard to protect the fleeing refugees.  The Turks and Kirds ambushed the fugitives from the mountain sides, shooting them for the sheer love of killing.  Turkish Cavalry pursued them, rode them down and putting thousands to the sword, hacking and mutilating them as they lay by the sides of the mountains.  Many times a small handful of Dunster Force Troops drove recklessly into the butchers, fighting hand to hand, rescuing many who had fallen into the hands of the Turk Forces.  It was in one of these rear guard actions that Sgt. Robert Clark, C.E., along with other Canadians, greatly distinguished themselves, with their bravery and fighting ability. 

During the months ahead Dunster Force trained and armed small armies that deserted at the first shot, operated bread lines, became jailers, bankers, spies and Engineers.  Many of the Canadians were assigned to duties which saw them operating practically on their own in the remotest regions of Kurdistan carrying their lives in their hands.  Night and day they had to be constantly vigilant for that distant shot from a hillside or a knife thrust as they lay asleep and the constant danger of ambush in the lonely gorges through which they travelled.  After a little over a year from it‘s creation and doing battle with the Turks, Kurds and Red Russians, Dunster Force withdrew from Persia.  Even though they failed to create the army they were sent there for, they did convince the Turks they had.  As for the Canadians, they all made it out alive and our Sapper Sgt. Clark has been lost in time, but his deeds and performance while serving in the "British Hush-Hush" are an outstanding credit to the Canadian Corp and our Engineer Branch.


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## stukirkpatrick

Thats an interesting post.  Aside from the purpose of its mission (to create an army), there seem to be early shades of peacekeeping in the Force‘s humanitarian efforts...

For another obscure question, what was the Q-Force, and its proposed (but never carried out) mission?


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
> [qb] Thats an interesting post.  Aside from the purpose of its mission (to create an army), there seem to be early shades of peacekeeping in the Force‘s humanitarian efforts...
> 
> For another obscure question, what was the Q-Force, and its proposed (but never carried out) mission? [/qb]


Ah the good old Lake Soupies.
Taken from the LSSR Reg. Web Sit.
 http://www.lssr.ca/history2.htm 


  Just south of Newfoundland lay the French islands of St. Pierre and Miquelon. Following the fall of France to the Nazis, the islands remained (technially, at least) under the control of the pro-Nazi Vichy French government. Concerned that naval intelligence could be transmitted from the islands to the German navy, the British and Canadian governments drafted plans to occupy them with troops. The LSSR was chosen for this purpose; the force it would deploy for the operation was termed Q Force. As it happened, the "invasion" never occurred, the islands aligning themselves solidly behind the Free French of Charles de Gaulle. Q Force was disbanded and the Regiment carried on to England.


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## stukirkpatrick

That lasted a good 13 minutes     

Thats it, but there is more to the story than what the website posted.  

According to the LSR regimental history book, (and a unit lecture they gave us) Q-Force was all ready to go, but De Gaulle did not like the idea of Canadian control of the islands very much, and thus put pressure on the mission.  During this time, he ‘liberated‘ the island himself, with support from the french navy (what was left).

Apparently when De Gaulle visited Cda in 1967, he came to St Pierre and Miquelon first, and later made his famous "libre quebec" speech.  Connection?


----------



## Spr.Earl

Which Unit in Canada suggested to form the first Aviation Unit?
What was the rumoured action that decided the out come?


----------



## Danjanou

Nice to see this thread is still running while I was away.

Great questions.


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## stukirkpatrick

> Which Unit in Canada suggested to form the first Aviation Unit?
> What was the rumoured action that decided the out come?


After a bit of spare time doing some quick searching, and learning a bit about the failed beginnings of the Canadian Aviation Corps, I must concede that I am stumped...    

anyone else have any ideas?


----------



## Art Johnson

It usually falls to the Engineers to initiate these experimental units.


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## stukirkpatrick

Well in that case, was the action a hardcore drinking contest?


----------



## Michael OLeary

> Originally posted by Michael OLeary:
> We all know of the Canadian Expeditionary Force‘s (CEF) service in Europe during the First World War, but where were some of the other locations that Canadian units served?





> Originally posted by devil39:
> The RCR went to Bermuda in 1914.





> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> Siberia is one of the biggies, methinks.


One railway company was sent to Palestine to rebuild the rail bridges of the Yarmuk Valley which had been destroyed by the Turks. Canadian infantry and artillery garrisons served in Bermuda and St. Lucia; Canadian hospital units in the Mediterranean cared for casualties from the Gallipoli campaign; small parties of Canadian engineers operated barges on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Mesopotamia; and Canadian instructors trained troops in the United States. - VALOUR REMEMBERED; Canada and the First World War, Veterans Affairs Publication, 1982


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## Michael OLeary

HISTORY OF THE MILITARY AIR SERVICES OF CANADA 

Canadian Aviation Corps 

On 16 September 1914 (while the original Canadian Expeditionary Force was forming up in Valcartier), Col Sam Hughes, Minister for the Militia and Defence, authorized the creation of the Canadian Aviation Corps (CAC). This corps was to consist of one mechanic and two officers. E.L. Janney of Galt, Ontario, was appointed as the "Provisional Commander of the CAC" with the rank of Captain. The expenditure of an amount not to exceed five thousand dollars for the purchase of a suitable airplane was approved. The aircraft selected was a float-equipped Burgess-Dunne bi-plane from the Burgess Aviation Company of Massachusetts. Capt Janney flew the aircraft back to Canada. Upon his arrival in Sorel, Quebec, Capt Janney was arrested by Canada Customs and the aircraft was impounded. After Canada Customs received notification from the Department of the Militia and Defence, Capt Janney and the aircraft were released. As it turned out, this was to be the only flight of Canada‘s first military aircraft.


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## Art Johnson

Which Canadian Regiment has been awarded the most Battle Honours in their own name. That is to say that none of the awards were garnered by amalgamation


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## Michael Dorosh

Why do I get the feeling it will be either the 48th Highlanders or the Royal Canadian Regiment...    ??


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which Unit in Canada suggested to form the first Aviation Unit?
> What was the rumoured action that decided the out come?
> 
> 
> 
> After a bit of spare time doing some quick searching, and learning a bit about the failed beginnings of the Canadian Aviation Corps, I must concede that I am stumped...
> 
> anyone else have any ideas? [/qb]
Click to expand...

CANADA‘S FIRST MILITARY FLIGHT


The idea of flight to support military operations is in no stretch of the imagination a 20th century concept.  The use of balloons for observation and artillery fire control was used by Napoleon and during the U.S. Civil War.  

By the late 1800‘s the Royal Engineers had established balloon sections and a Air Battalion.  It was these Engineer sponsored units that carried out the experimentation that brought Britain to the fore of Military aviation.  Indeed the Royal Air Force dates it‘s history back to these R.E. Balloon Sections. 

Unfortunately, the suggestions put forth by the 6th Field Company R.C.E. in 1913 to form an aviation section were not implemented in Canada, but the young Corp of R.C.E. did have the privilege to be connected with Canada‘s first Military flight.  

In July 1909 the Corp was tasked to construct a hanger and temporary airstrip in Petawawa, Ontario.  Also on site were two associates of Dr. Alexander Graham Bell and Ex-Sappers of the 2nd Field Company C.E.  On the 23 July 1909, Mr. J.A.D. McCurdy and F.W. Baldwin, with the assistance of Capt. Tyrrell R.E. and Lt. Perrin R.C.E., began to assemble two aircraft delivered by rail from Braddock N.S. 

On the 2 Aug 1909, Baldwin and McCurdy made four successful take-offs and landings.  Unfortunately the "Silver Dart" was wrecked on the fourth landing.  With the aid of a Sapper ground crew the second aircraft "Beddeck 1" was assembled and flown before a considerable audience of military and civil officials.  Again misfortune plagued the demonstration and the "Beddeck 1" crashed on its second landing.  As a result of these demonstrations Maj. Maunsell, as Director of Engineer Services, was assigned to observe any new trials carried by McCurdy and Baldwin.  He spent several days at Beddeck N.S. in 1910 and was taken up on two "short flips".  As a result he was convinced that flying had a future in the military and suggested that an aviation section R.C.E. be formed to conduct trials on the handling of aircraft and balloons. 

Even though the Militia Council approved his recommendations, the Minister of Militia and Defence vetoed the proposal.  Thus ending Canada‘s first attempt at forming a military aviation section.  The reasons for the veto are unknown.  Perhaps, with war clouds looming in Europe and the heavy commitments for Engineer services to the permanent Corp, military flight had a low priority.  But, as the bronze plaque at C.F.B. Petawawa states "The first Military demonstration of aircraft flight in Canada" was in fact a Sapper flight. 



The folk lore of 6Fd from when I first joined as we have many first‘s in Cdn.Military History is that Col.Fell and the powers that were at the time flipped a coin as to Air or Engineer.
At the 75th Annivercery of 6Fd I met Col.Fell‘s son (He was a retired Math Prof.from the Eastern States) and asked him about the rumour as he was very knowledgable about 6Fd and he confirmed the rumour.So another bit of military lore wheather true or not


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## Art Johnson

Is that an answer Michael? If so which one and how many Battle Honours.


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## clasper

I‘ll step in for Michael.  The RCR aren‘t even close, with only 28 Battle Honours.  The Calgary Highlanders and the Black Watch are up into the forties, but the unit with the most (at least that I‘ve been able to find) is the 48th Highlanders of Canada, with 49 Battle Honours.

 http://www3.sympatico.ca/ronkierstead/honours.html 

Any other leading questions you‘d like to pose?


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## Michael OLeary

Actually, if you want to be very particular, in accordance with the relevant Army Orders for Battle Honours for the First World War (Conditions for the Award of Battle Honours for the Great War 1914-1919, General Orders, 1 Feb 1928), the following should be counted separately (examples taken from the linked 48th list):

*Ypres, 1915* (The Battles of Ypres, 1915: 22 Apr - 25 May 1915) 

and

*Ypres, 1917* (The Battles of Ypres, 1917: 31 Jul - 10 Nov 1917)
__________________________________

*Arras, 1917* (The Battles of Arras, 1917: 9 Apr - 4 May 1917) 

and

*Arras, 1918* (The Second Battle of Arras, 1918: 26 Aug - 3 Sep 1918)
__________________________________

*Scarpe, 1917* (Second Battle of the Scarpe, 1917: part of The Battles of Arras, 1917, Canadians involved only in subsidiary attack), and/or (Third Battle of the Scarpe, 1917: 3-4 May 1917)

and

*Scarpe, 1918* (Battle of the Scarpe, 1918 (26 - 30 Aug 1918)

_________________________________

The various conventions of listing place names of Battle Honours with years afterwards can easily confuse the issue and the count.

"FRANCE AND FLANDERS 1915-1918" represents a Theatre of War Honour covering general particpation in the theatre during those years. The reference lists only 10 different Theatre Honours.

"YPRES, 1915 & 1917" or, as it may often be written "YPRES, 1915, 1917" actually identifies two separate battles at Ypres in those years.

This, of course calls for reexamination of the count of Battle Honours given by various regiments.


Mike


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## Art Johnson

Michael was on to me right away I was hoping he and a few others would have let it pass for awhile. The answer is the 48th Highlanders of Canada with 49.
Mike the Rogue brought up some interesting points and there are some others. The British established the areas that would qualify for certain Battle Honours this did not satisfy the Canadians and they enlarged the areas to satisfy their view of the situations.
The 1st stand of colours of the 48th were presented in 1892 and when they were laid up in 1927 the Battle Honour Passchendael was not emblazoned there on. The 2nd stand which were presented by Lord Byng in 1925 were similarly emblazoned. The official list of Battle Honours was approved by the King in 1928 and the request for the Honour Passchendael had been approved, too late of course for emblazment on the 2nd stand. The 48th were not among the first assauting troops and they were not sure that they would be entitled for the Battle Honour.
In 1959 the 3rd stand with the WW II Honours emblazoned and Passchendael replacing Scarpe 1917 & 1918 were presented by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.
Ypres 1915 is also known as the 2nd Battle of Ypres and 1917 the 3rd, the 1st Battle of Ypres took place in 1914 before any Canadian unit other  than the PPCLI were in France.
Another interesting item is that only Canadian units were elegible for the Battle Honour Hill 70.


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## Art Johnson

ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT BATTLE HONOURS.

Which Canadian Forces Units were awarded Battle Honours for the Gulf War 1991.


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## Michael OLeary

The Wednesday Report
Volume 7, Number 48, December 1, 1993 

CF UNITS AWARDED BATTLE HONOUR
The following units will be awarded battle honours for having served in the Gulf and Kuwait as part of the multinational military effort in the Persian Gulf in 1991 in support of U.N. Security Council resolutions: HMCS Athabaskan, HMCS Protecteur, HMCS Terra Nova, 423 Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron and 439 Tactical Fighter Squadron. In addition, 416 Tactical Fighter Squadron and 437 Transport Squadron will be awarded an honorary distinction for significantly reinforcing the deployed tactical fighter force which fought in the theatre. The Governor General authorized the creation of the new battle honour in Ottawa on November 10 [1993].


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## stukirkpatrick

I‘ll try to jump-start this thread again...

Here is a quite obscure 1812 question ... (or is it?):

What Canadian volunteer was present at both the Battle of Queenston Heights (Brock‘s death) and the battle of the Thames (Tecumseh‘s death) both when he was only 17-18?

he later became Canada‘s first novelist.

?


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## clasper

Major John Richardson is known as Canada‘s first novelist.  One of his books, "The Canadian Brothers" deals with (among other things) the role of First Nations in the war of 1812.  I can‘t comment about his presence in the two battles, but he certainly drew his experience from somewhere.


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## clasper

Billy Bishop, with 72 kills, was the greatest ace amongst the allies in WWI.      Which other Canadians had at least 50 kills to their credit?


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## bossi

Well, Roy Collisaw had 62 "victories", but that included "out of control" and shared victories (by WWII standards, he only would have had 28.5)

Ooops - almost left out Don McLaren with 54.

Billy Barker had 43 aircraft in July 1918, got three more in September and then ... you‘ve GOT to read this to believe it - "On October 27, 1918 Canadian ace William Barker made the Sopwith Snipe famous in a single-handed battle with more than 60 enemy aircraft that earned him the Victoria Cross." - awesome!
Canadian Aces


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## clasper

William Barker‘s story is an interesting one.  He is Canada‘s most decorated war hero, having won the VC, DSO (and bar), MC (w/ two bars), French Croix de Guerre, two Italian Silver Medals for Valour, and three Mentions-in-Despatches.  His VC citation is very impressive sounding, but Wayne Ralph, in his biography "Barker VC", suggests that the citation was somewhat embellished, although he also asserts that the medal was deserved.  He also comments in general about the liberal "awarding" of kills (see Collishaw above) but also maintains that the top aces (Richtofen, Bishop, etc.) did not have their totals artificially increased.  (I guess only second rate flying aces are capable of telling tall tales     )

Anyway, back to the army questions: Who liberated Dieppe?


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## Michael Dorosh

Who liberated Dieppe?

2nd Canadian Division.

Naturally!

But tell me this - why did General Crerar get in trouble because of Dieppe‘s liberation?


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## Gunner

> Wayne Ralph, in his biography "Barker VC", suggests that the citation was somewhat embellished, although he also asserts that the medal was deserved. He also comments in general about the liberal "awarding" of kills (see Collishaw above) but also maintains that the top aces (Richtofen, Bishop, etc.) did not have their totals artificially increased.


Bereton Greenhous, former Director of History and Heritage and editor of the official History of the RCAF (all 4(?) Volumes) discusses the issue of liberal awarding of medals to pilots during WWI and WWII.  The air force suffered very high losses (as a result of prewar governments that did not take military spending, organization and equipping seriously...    ) and pilots needed motivation and moreover the public needed hero‘s.

He published  The Making of Billy Bishop a couple of years ago and it created some controversy as he disputed some feats attributed to Bishop (#‘s of kills and his VC feat).  He presented his findings at a Military History Conference in Ottawa and they were very persuasive.  

Billy Barker, was perhaps a much more realistic Canadian Hero, but he was not the self-promoter that Billy Bishop was and died in the 1920s (30s?).


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## Gunner

> why did General Crerar get in trouble because of Dieppe‘s liberation?


Montgomery (pot calling the kettle black) criticizing Crerar for failing to exploit the success at Dieppe?


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Gunner:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why did General Crerar get in trouble because of Dieppe‘s liberation?
> 
> 
> 
> Montgomery (pot calling the kettle black) criticizing Crerar for failing to exploit the success at Dieppe? [/qb]
Click to expand...

Nope.  But sort of in the ballpark.

I‘ll give you a hint.  The drum corps of the Regimental Pipes and Drums of the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada were involved, if only tangentially...


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## Gunner

Hmm, well the 2nd Division stopped to honour the dead from Dieppe in August 1942.  I‘ve read two versions of events: first Crerar failed to exploit beyond Dieppe and used the ceremony as an excuse to snub Montgomery‘s demand to see him, and second Crerar snubbed a summons by Montgomery to come see him in order to pay tribute to the fallen Canadians from 1942.  Granatstein seems to favour the latter. 

Crerar also ran into trouble later in the Fall when he came into conflict with his subordinate, a British Corps Comd, who was under command of the 1st Canadian Army...am I off track?


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## Michael Dorosh

Nope, ya got it.  The 2nd Div had a victory parade on 3 Sep 44, the whole Div marched through Dieppe.  The massed pipes and drums of the Division played (hence my red herring - must have been a **** emotional parade to be on!), and Montgomery was pissed when Crerar skipped a conference to attend the ceremony to honour the fallen.

You may be right about the lack of exploitation (though I thought the Canadians got bogged down trying to take the coastal fortresses after that - Calais, Cap Griz Nez, Dunkirk and really couldn‘t exploit if they wanted to) though I wasn‘t thinking about that.

It is very odd to think that many German-held French ports were converted into fortresses, and didn‘t surrender until May 1945.

Maybe that‘s a good trivia question - which ports in the Canadian rear remained masked until May 1945?


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## Spr.Earl

On D.day the Canadian Corps. made the most advance than any of the Allies.
My question is who were these two Unit‘s that made that advance?


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## Gunner

> It is very odd to think that many German-held French ports were converted into fortresses, and didn‘t surrender until May 1945.


Hmm, French ports?  I know of Dunkirk which was surrounded from Sep 44 until surrender on 9 May 45.  The commander (Vice Admiral Frisius) was pretty fiesty considering he launched a serious raid in Apr 45 against the Czechoslovakian Armoured Brigade conducting the containment.


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] On D.day the Canadian Corps. made the most advance than any of the Allies.
> My question is who were these two Unit‘s that made that advance? [/qb]


No. 1 Field Company, Royal Canadian Engineers and 
No. 2 Field Company, Royal Canadian Engineers.

Depending on who is telling the story, Spr. Earl...


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb] On D.day the Canadian Corps. made the most advance than any of the Allies.
> My question is who were these two Unit‘s that made that advance? [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> No. 1 Field Company, Royal Canadian Engineers and
> No. 2 Field Company, Royal Canadian Engineers.
> 
> Depending on who is telling the story, Spr. Earl...       [/qb]
Click to expand...

I thought it was Recce element‘s of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles and members of 6Fd.Co. R.C.E. who were attached to the Rifles.   

Make‘s for a good discussion and research anyway.


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## clasper

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] Who liberated Dieppe?
> 
> 2nd Canadian Division.
> 
> Naturally!
> [/qb]


Actually, the Canadians were not first into Dieppe.  On the night of 31 Aug/1 Sep, there was an RAF bombing raid planned to precede an attack from 2nd Cdn Div.  At nightfall on the 31st, a few Royal Marines landed near the port, and upon noticing that the Germans had abandoned it, the Marines managed to call off the raid. (Apparently the Germans left in great haste upon hearing that Canadians with dark blue shoulder patches were on the way.)  When the first armoured cars of the 8th Recce Regt entered Dieppe the morning of the 1st, they were welcomed by the Royal Marines standing out front of a cafe with glasses of beer in their hands.

Major General Foulkes then ordered the division to halt on the outskirts of town for two days, so they could rest and spruce up for the parade on the 3rd.  It was their first rest in 53 days.


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by clasper:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] Who liberated Dieppe?
> 
> 2nd Canadian Division.
> 
> Naturally!
> [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the Canadians were not first into Dieppe.  On the night of 31 Aug/1 Sep, there was an RAF bombing raid planned to precede an attack from 2nd Cdn Div.  At nightfall on the 31st, a few Royal Marines landed near the port, and upon noticing that the Germans had abandoned it, the Marines managed to call off the raid. (Apparently the Germans left in great haste upon hearing that Canadians with dark blue shoulder patches were on the way.)  When the first armoured cars of the 8th Recce Regt entered Dieppe the morning of the 1st, they were welcomed by the Royal Marines standing out front of a cafe with glasses of beer in their hands.
> 
> Major General Foulkes then ordered the division to halt on the outskirts of town for two days, so they could rest and spruce up for the parade on the 3rd.  It was their first rest in 53 days. [/qb]
Click to expand...

So was the question "who were the first Allied troops in to Dieppe" - or "who liberated Dieppe"?

I suppose the Germans should get full credit for being smart enough to withdraw in the first place...


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## stukirkpatrick

~Snapshoot question  :sniper:  

Without checking on the web... 

Who was Canada under threat of invasion from in the mid-nineteenth century?


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## bossi

The Fenians?


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## stukirkpatrick

...yes

for those who may not know (both of you)...

1841-1871

Canada organized permanent militia units and repelled raids by the American-based Fenian Brotherhood.

In 1855, Canada passed a Militia Act creating cavalry, infantry, and artillery units, made up of volunteer, part-time soldiers. Strained Anglo-American relations during the American Civil War (1861-65) led Britain to send 11,000 troops to protect its North American colonies.

Following the Civil War, the Fenian Brotherhood, largely composed of Irish-American veterans, sought to achieve Ireland's independence from Britain by capturing Canada as a hostage. Between 1866 and 1871, they raided Canadian territory from New Brunswick to Manitoba. During the largest raid, in June 1866 along the Niagara frontier, the Fenians defeated a small Canadian force at Ridgeway. The Fenians returned to the United States before Canadian and British reinforcements arrived. Every other Fenian raid ended in failure, and the movement collapsed after 1871.    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





This was an interesting time, because it was the creation of the modern militia we all know and love today.

-edit- information courtesy of www.warmuseum.ca


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## Spr.Earl

How many Haggis they have wolfed down.


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## dannybou

My first post. Glad to be here. My question is this:

Where did Canadian Army units mutiny after WW1 and how many casualties resulted?


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## Danjanou

> Originally posted by Kirkpatrick:
> [qb] ~Snapshoot question   :sniper:
> 
> Without checking on the web...
> 
> Who was Canada under threat of invasion from in the mid-nineteenth century? [/qb]


Well the Fnians have already been noted there were also the remnants of the 1837 rebels in Upper and Lower Canada who fled to the US and then launched a series of raids into Lower Canada and alos in the Niagara region, and at Cornwall 
(Battle of the Windmill)


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## stukirkpatrick

Very true.  Too bad there isn‘t as much info from those skirmishes as there is for the War of 1812, and other, more well known battles.


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## redcoat7121

> Originally posted by Dano:
> [qb] FALSE. [/qb]


FALSE


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by dannybou:
> [qb] My first post. Glad to be here. My question is this:
> 
> Where did Canadian Army units mutiny after WW1 and how many casualties resulted? [/qb]


In Northern Wales,I forget the name of the Camp or how many were killed.

The Troops got peed off about the delays in repatriation as Liverpool was not to far away.  They revolted and if I remember right they got into the Armoury and got a hold of weapons.
But after the revolt was quelled repatriation was quickened.
This is also a little known event in our Military History.


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## logau

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by dannybou:
> [qb] My first post. Glad to be here. My question is this:
> 
> Where did Canadian Army units mutiny after WW1 and how many casualties resulted? [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> In Northern Wales,I forget the name of the Camp or how many were killed.[/qb]
Click to expand...

Not many - it happened in WALES at KINMEL PARK 4 Mar 1919 - 5 drunken idiots killed 

see it here at www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/factsheets/makhist/makhist5_prog3b.shtml

Another puzzle solved for our Loyal Readers by the Army.ca History Chief of Staff


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## Spr.Earl

Merci buckets Mon Sewer.   
Our Font of Knowledge.


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## Old Cent Hand

Mutiny in the Canadian Army. I read about it, and seen a documentary on it. The troops came back from WW1 , and wasted away in a camp , in the U.K.  On H.M.C.S. Cresent, in the late ‘50‘s or early ‘60‘s , there was a mutiny. In Germany ,in  early ‘80‘s there was an incident , where a Tank Troop ,refused to obey a troop leader, whom the NCM,‘s had deemed incompetant. I have heard of numerous incidents, of troops refusing to obey orders. But in our military, we cover our " dirt", or find a " Scape Goat" , and sit in our respective messes , and talk about how screwed up , other army‘s are. The CF is good at giving advice , but poor at accepting advice.


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## Spr.Earl

Old Cent,what about the Leo Commander who was the Recce call sign Leo. Tank who dropped his tank off of 12/15 ft bunker and blew all the hydrauclic‘s and they tried to charge him for X $$$ ?
Yup in Germany?
No Names,no pacck drill.


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## Old Cent Hand

Further to my last , we ( the CF), are starting to accept " Lessons Learned", from the Americans , in Iraq. 1 Service Battalion , recently , conducted an Ex ., and they had " Gun Trucks". The lead HLVW, had a sandbagged emplace ment , with a C-6, the rear HLVW, had the same thing with an A.A. mount. In all the HL‘s in between , there was a soldier , in the hatch , armed and ready.I talked to the troops , and they said they got this from American  CSS people , that were in Iraq .Our people are changing their doctrine on convoys.


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## Old Cent Hand

Sapper Earl, I know of numerous incidents , of equipment being destroyed or damaged,through neglect, but was written off due to "Training". Or the Officer , that loses his pistol , and it‘s " Handled Internally".
CHIMO.


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## Mo` fella

> Further to my last , we ( the CF), are starting to accept " Lessons Learned", from the Americans ...


Good point Cent, too many in the CF think the CF way and CF troops are the be-all end-all and think we have nothing to learn.

Too many times I hear: "Its not in our doctrine, Its not in the pam" or my personal favorite "Thats the American way of doing things!"


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