# Here Kitty Kitty



## Danjanou (10 Mar 2008)

*German invasion*
War Museum acquires freshly restored Panther tank from Second World War
Ottawa Citizen

Published: Thursday, January 10, 2008

( reproduced with the usual caveats yada yada)

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=89799321-38df-4cba-86ab-6923e1621137&k=3238

Panzer V tank from the Second World War moved into the The Canadian War Museum early Thursday.

The tank was introduced by the German army in 1943 to counter the feared Russian T-34 tank and they were widely regarded as the two best tanks in the Second World War. The newly-restored tank, also known as the Panther, is the museum's latest artifact and was moved into the LeBreton Gallery at about 9. a.m.

"This is possibly the largest restoration project ever undertaken by the Museum," said Mark O'Neill, the museum's Director General. "After two years of hard labour by a dedicated team of volunteers, staff and others, the result can now be appreciated by visitors."
This vehicle was restored in the museum restoration workshop by museum staff, volunteers and contractors who spent approximately 4,000 hours working on its restoration.

The 45-tonne armoured vehicle was easily moved into its display space by two men, using an air supported platform. 

The Panther was one of the largest tanks produced in quantity during the Second World War. 

Although little is known of its history or its capture, the museum's tank was shipped to Canada, where it was used in V-E celebrations May 8, 1945, on Sparks Street in Ottawa.

After that it was sent to Canadian Forces Base Borden and displayed outside until the Department of National Defence's Directorate of History and Heritage, CFB Borden, and the Base Borden Military Museum donated it to the Museum in 2005.

At the museum, it joins its arch-foe the T-34 and some 300 artifacts in the museum's LeBreton Gallery. 

The Panther has been meticulously restored and research continues to determine what German unit it served with. 

The new artifact provides an opportunity for visitors to better understand the equipment used by the Germans during the Second World War, and better appreciate some of the obstacles the Allies faced in liberating Europe, the museum says.

The Panther was one of the largest tanks produced in quantity during the Second World War.


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## Mike Baker (10 Mar 2008)

Wow thats amazing. Panther tanks are beasts.


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## jollyjacktar (27 Mar 2008)

I crawled all over her when she was in Worthington Park.  She looks much much better now, good thing they have done the right thing and restored her for future generations.  Well done!


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## DCRabbit (31 Mar 2008)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I crawled all over her when she was in Worthington Park.  She looks much much better now, good thing they have done the right thing and restored her for future generations.  Well done!



 You too, huh? Is this the one that you could crawl inside thru the engine bay? I remember you could on one of the german ones. Man, it's been a long time so my memory is hazy.


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## geo (31 Mar 2008)

Well - vehicle issue records for the german army survived the war.
It shouldn't be too hard to find out which unit got it - after it rolled off the production line.
Not sure about how accurate the ownership records go once the shooting started & vehicle parts got swopped around to keep em running.
Who knows, it may be one of the ones we faced in Normandy.... wouldn't that be something.


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## jollyjacktar (31 Mar 2008)

DCRabbit said:
			
		

> You too, huh? Is this the one that you could crawl inside thru the engine bay? I remember you could on one of the german ones. Man, it's been a long time so my memory is hazy.



Can't say if this was the one you are thinking of.  I honestly did not try to go into any of them like that.  But I do remember a T-34 that arrived later during my stay there that you could go inside of through the engine bay.  But there was absolutely nothing at all in the interior of the vehicle.  It was completely gutted inside, just a shell from front to back.


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## jimb (18 Apr 2008)

The story say that the Tiger was moved in psoition in the AFV hall by "two men using a air supported platform " ? Say what ???

Any one know what that item is called ?  Sure would be a  handy  item in the auto body and or heavy equipment business, yes ?

Jim B.


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## PO2FinClk (18 Apr 2008)

jimb said:
			
		

> The story say that the *Tiger* was moved in psoition in the AFV hall by "two men using a air supported platform " ? Say what ???


You mean the Panther?


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## geo (18 Apr 2008)

jimb said:
			
		

> The story say that the Tiger was moved in psoition in the AFV hall by "two men using a air supported platform " ? Say what ???
> Any one know what that item is called ?  Sure would be a  handy  item in the auto body and or heavy equipment business, yes ?
> Jim B.


If you look at the video clip provided you will see the Panther being moved by something akin to a pallet jack - but using an air cushion...neat trick


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Apr 2008)

Sorta like the airbag system from the TMHTS  ;D


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (18 Apr 2008)

Best German tank of ww2, easily. Combined, firepower, speed, mobility, and armour to a well balanced level. The only drawback is that it was made to well, which hampered mass production to larger levels


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## geo (19 Apr 2008)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Best *German * tank of ww2, easily. Combined, firepower, speed, mobility, and armour to a well balanced level. The only drawback is that it was made to well, which hampered mass production to larger levels


Talk to anyone about the interwoven road wheels.  to get at one in the back, you have to remove many, many ones from front and centre tier.... not good.  Not good at all.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (19 Apr 2008)

Would that really hurt its standing ?

The shermans lit up like zippos when hit, T-34's and poor quality armour and no radios, every tank had their problems


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Apr 2008)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Would that really hurt its standing ?
> 
> The shermans lit up like zippos when hit, T-34's and poor quality armour and no radios, every tank had their problems



Kinda, try changing roadwheels bad enough when you got to remove the outer one to get at the inner one. With the set up on that tank you have to remove multiple roadwheels if the inner one went.

Very time and labour consuming.


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## vonGarvin (19 Apr 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Kinda, try changing roadwheels bad enough when you got to remove the outer one to get at the inner one. With the set up on that tank you have to remove multiple roadwheels if the inner one went.
> 
> Very time and labour consuming.


True, but given that their crews were more likely to survive tank on tank combat than their adversaries, I'd say it's less important than survivability.  Even though time consuming, living Mark V crews change roadwheels much more efficiently and effectively than dead Ronson crews 100% of the time.


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## vonGarvin (19 Apr 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Talk to anyone about the interwoven road wheels.  to get at one in the back, you have to remove many, many ones from front and centre tier.... not good.  Not good at all.


As I state above, at least the mechanics at the repair shop likely had living crews to help them out with those road wheels.


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## muskrat89 (19 Apr 2008)

> The story say that the Tiger was moved in psoition in the AFV hall by "two men using a air supported platform " ? Say what Huh
> 
> Any one know what that item is called ?  Sure would be a  handy  item in the auto body and or heavy equipment business, yes ?
> 
> Jim B.




Riggers use stuff like that all the time.

http://www.hovair.com/products/rigging-equipment/rigging-equipment.htm

http://www.solvinginc.com/rig_set_modular_air_bearing_syst.htm

http://www.aerogo.com/PDFs/Load-Module-Case-Study-Toyota.pdf

http://www.airfloat.com/custom_solutions.php


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## wildman0101 (19 Apr 2008)

real dumb question
regards panzers (tiger tank)
arnt we currently using thier grand-duaghters 
the leopard 1 and 2 
the german tiger tank was a bad a**
ours (canadian) leopards 
are bred nasty 
therefore the rule
to the green fields beyond...
so sic em kitty kitty 
just my thoughts....
                                 best regards,,
                                     scoty b


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## vonGarvin (20 Apr 2008)

wildman0101 said:
			
		

> real dumb question...


Well, since the Tiger was a Henschel design, the Panther was a MAN AG design and the prototype Leopards were a Porsche design (built by Krauss Maffei), I would argue that the Leopard is not the grand-kitten of World War two tanks.

Think of tanks as having three main characteristics: Firepower, Mobility and Protection
The Tiger was outstanding in terms of Firepower and Protection, but lacked in Mobility.
The Panther was excellent in terms of Firepower, outstanding in Protection with reasonable mobility.
The Leopard was excellent in terms of Firepower and mobility, but lacking in Protection.
See a trend?  Protection is lacking.  Though later Leopard variants (eg: the Leo 2A6M CAN) are excellent in all three areas, the Leo 1 certainly wasn't.  Nope, not the grand kitty.


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## George Wallace (20 Apr 2008)

I agree with your assessment.  However, one factor about the Mobility/Speed.  Although the Leo 1 was relatively lightly armoured compared to the others, modern metalurgy had indeed made stronger lighter metals.  Also, in its day, Speed was a form of Protection.  When the Leo 1 first came out, there were no Anti-Armour wpns that could track it accurately.  It wasn't until the late '80s and TOW 2 that the Leo 1 started to fall easy prey to Ants.  By then Leo 2 was starting to fill most inventories.


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## vonGarvin (21 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I agree with your assessment.  However, one factor about the Mobility/Speed.  Although the Leo 1 was relatively lightly armoured compared to the others, modern metalurgy had indeed made stronger lighter metals.  Also, in its day, Speed was a form of Protection.  When the Leo 1 first came out, there were no Anti-Armour wpns that could track it accurately.  It wasn't until the late '80s and TOW 2 that the Leo 1 started to fall easy prey to Ants.  By then Leo 2 was starting to fill most inventories.


"Geschwindigkeit ist Sicherheit" "Speed is Safety".  I agree that the Leo's Speed was a form of protection.  By "Protection", I meant the old standard amount of metal protection, vice the holistic view.  Of course, it was also fairly well protected against other "stuff", such as the effects of nuclear weapons...


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## geo (21 Apr 2008)

Heh... if you put enough metal & other goods on the Leo1 for protection.... you'll make a great pillbox.


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## Danjanou (21 Apr 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh... if you put enough metal & other goods on the Leo1 for protection.... you'll make a great pillbox.



Something The Germans also did with the Panther a lot in Italy and elsewhere. The Pantherturm.


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## geo (21 Apr 2008)

IIRC, other countries did the same with "vintage" German tanks after the war.
There is a thread around here somewhere that discusses how Romania (?) is presently auctioning off some vintage tanks to the highest bidder - now that they have been pulled out of their concrete emplacements on their border.


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## vonGarvin (21 Apr 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Something The Germans also did with the Panther a lot in Italy and elsewhere. The Pantherturm.


Looks good for firepower and protection, but mobility seems to be lacking ;D


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## Danjanou (21 Apr 2008)

Yeah the mobility issue may not be addressed much. I haven't done much eresearch into these yet aside from they were extensively used in the Hitler and Gustav Lines and later in the Gothic Lines. I would presuemt at they salvaged turrets from no runnign damaged tanks as opposed to using viable tanks.

Geo That was Bulgaria, they had a bunch of old Pnz IVs on their border with Turkey during the Cold War. 

IIRC some sharp eyed Cdn blackhatter noticed something familiar about the Centurian Turret Pillboxes in Switzerland too. 8)


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## wildman0101 (24 Apr 2008)

thanks guys for the replys
i stand corrected...good points
                                        regards,,
                                        scoty b..
p.s. good pics thanks..


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## Mike Baker (24 Apr 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yeah the mobility issue may not be addressed much. I haven't done much eresearch into these yet aside from they were extensively used in the Hitler and Gustav Lines and later in the Gothic Lines. I would presuemt at they salvaged turrets from no runnign damaged tanks as opposed to using viable tanks.
> 
> Geo That was Bulgaria, they had a bunch of old Pnz IVs on their border with Turkey during the Cold War.
> 
> IIRC some sharp eyed Cdn blackhatter noticed something familiar about the Centurian Turret Pillboxes in Switzerland too. 8)


A little off topic, but the Hitler and Gothic lines were broke through by VanDoos, correct?


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## dangerboy (24 Apr 2008)

Baker said:
			
		

> A little off topic, but the Hitler and Gothic lines were broke through by VanDoos, correct?


The Hitler line was broken through by 1st Canadian Division and 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division along with the II Polish Corp. The Royal 22nd Regt was part of the 1st Canadian Division


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## 3rd Herd (25 Apr 2008)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Best German tank of ww2, easily. Combined, firepower, speed, mobility, and armour to a well balanced level. The only drawback is that it was made to well, which hampered mass production to larger levels



"Panther was rushed into production without proper trials, and numerous faults soon became apparent:indeed, in the type's early days more Panthers were lost to mechanical failure than to enemy action, and consequently the crew's confidence in the vehicle rapidly dwindled. The vehicle first saw action on the Eastern Front during July 1943 during the Kursk battles, and from then on it was used on all fronts. Once the mechanical problems had been overcome confidence in the tank soon built up again, and many consider the Panther to be the best all round German tank of World War II. In the immediate post-war period the French army used a number of Panther tanks until more modern tanks were available."http://www.wdif.net/german-weapons/panzerkampfwagen-v-panther-heavy-tank.html

One of the early results of this was the Panther catching fire, particularly in it's first appearance in the Kursk Battles[Operation Citidal]. This was a result of the German Army over looking some problems that had occurred in the two prototypes. This was done in the haste to have them in the field by May 1943( 850 produced between January and September 1943). Next was the possibility of German "blue on blue" as this was the first German tank to have the main gun barrel protruding over the front of the tank, therefore resembling Soviet tanks. In receiving the new tanks some losses were said to have occurred due to the crews not keeping the front of the tank towards the enemy, a training error.  Further, the main gun did not have a stabilizing system thus in most cases it had to come to a stop for an accurate shot over distance. While requiring minimal effort the traverse system was also slow compared to other tanks [15 sec for 360 rotation Sherman, 60 sec for 360 rotation early Panthers to 18 sec for later models]. There were also never solved problems with the steering design and the skid brake system.

Sources Various

Edit to add:

site advance search will provide more information on the Panther  ;D


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## Mike Baker (25 Apr 2008)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> The Hitler line was broken through by 1st Canadian Division and 5th Canadian (Armoured) Division along with the II Polish Corp. The Royal 22nd Regt was part of the 1st Canadian Division


Ah okay, thanks.

Baker


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## George Wallace (25 Apr 2008)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> ........... Next was the possibility of German "blue on blue" as this was the first German tank to have the main gun barrel protruding over the front of the tank, therefore resembling Soviet tanks. In receiving the new tanks some losses were said to have occurred due to the crews not keeping the front of the tank towards the enemy, a training error.



Most cases, in most armies, if a tank approaches you with its gun pointed at you, it is assumed to be hostile.  Where the front of the tank is is not relevant; where the gun is pointed is.


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## 3rd Herd (28 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Most cases, in most armies, if a tank approaches you with its gun pointed at you, it is assumed to be hostile.  Where the front of the tank is is not relevant; where the gun is pointed is.



Actually George in this case [the Panther] exacerbated the condition which had become apparent in the end of 1942 and the beginning of 1943 known as "tank fever". 

As for the breaking of the lines:

PPCLI- 79 standing after the first attempt
LER-100  standing
(Source: J.L. Granatstein,  Canada's Army: Waging War and Keeping the Peace , however Granatstein cites Mark Zuehlke , The Liri Valley: Canada's World War II Breakthrough to Rome and his other books for further information on the "concreate Panthers"


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## 3rd Herd (28 Apr 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yeah the mobility issue may not be addressed much. I haven't done much research into these yet aside from they were extensively used in the Hitler and Gustav Lines and later in the Gothic Lines. I would presuemt at they salvaged turrets from no runnign damaged tanks as opposed to using viable tanks.



A perspective on the German idea,

"As the tide of the war began to turn the German High Command became increasingly desperate and plans were formulated to use Panther tank turrets as improvised fortifications[Panzerstellung]. This was something of a departure for the Germans, since these tanks were still in production; indeed the Panther was the main medium German battle tank. Initially, the turrets used were from standard production models and, understandably, the Allies concluded from this that either 'the [Panther] chassis is not too satisfactory or that its production has been hindered by our air attacks'. Neither conclusion was in fact correct and, faced with overwhelming evidence, Allied intelligence was forced to concede that this was a standard German fortification.

Although the first installations captured by the Allies mounted standard Panther tank turrets (primarily from the older Ausf. D, but also the later Ausf. A turret) purpose built turrets were also encountered. These turrets were simplified versions of the standard production model, the main visible difference being that they were fitted with a flat hatch rather than a cupola. The other significant difference was that the turret roof was constructed using a 40 mm plate (as opposed to 16 mm). This was because the emplaced turrets were more vulnerable to artillery fire. Once the turret had opened fire it had effectively highlighted its location to enemy artillery and therefore needed to be able to withstand the inevitable barrage. German tests showed that the additional armour meant that the turret could withstand a hit from a 150 mm artillery shell.

Further evidence that these fortifications were not improvisations, but were specially developed, was apparent from the fact that they were mounted on purpose built shelters." ( Neil Short,  "The German use of tank turrets as fixed fortifications". http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content2.php/cid=215) Supporting Short is the directive given by Hitler of " TM-E 30-451: Handbook on German Military Forces published in March 1945 found in CHAPTER V. FORTIFICATIONS AND DEFENSES, Section II. CHARACTERISTICS OF FORTIFICATIONS" stating "Hitler subsequently ordered Tobruk pits to be used as defense works in the field, and instructions for building them were distributed down to divisions." The Panther turrets were then placed on a modified "Torbruk pit". (http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/ch5sec2.html) 


For the Panther's big Kitty brother. 
There is a good site here http://www.ss501panzer.com/213_restoration.htm which looks at The Restoration of 213 commanded by SS-Obersturmführer Dollinger in Belguim.

For his surviving brothers and sisters:

Surviving Panther Tanks
the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panthers.pdf
(updated Feb/08 with photo's)

Relic hunting and restoration of armored vehicles in Russia:

"all founded armored vehicles  are property of GAPTU (Armored department of Russian Defense Ministry). Argumentation: "if tomorrow the war, all historical military armored vehicles will be at front..."  Strange? But during the battle for Moscow 1941 many people volunteer detachments had....the rifles 1812M from the Smolensk museum. Found on the battlefields after 60 years, any armored vehicles could be put in the order by our specialists."(http://www.tankmuseum.ru/restor.html)

BUNKERMUSEUM - Austrian defences against the former Yugoslavia
http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/C076/31/text.htm


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