# WTF? Another Monument Desecration?



## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2008)

Shared with the usual disclaimer....

*War memorial defaced*
Monument to fallen soldiers on Mackenzie King bridge defaced
TERRI SAUNDERS, SUN MEDIA, 22 Jul 08
Article link

War veterans across the country will be saddened to hear another memorial in the nation's capital has been desecrated, a war association official said yesterday.  Bill Black, president of the Ottawa chapter of the Korean War Veterans Association, was shocked yesterday to hear the Monument to Canadians Fallen on the Mackenzie King Bridge near Confederation Park has been marred by human feces.  "This is very disturbing news," Black said, when told that the back of the monument appears to have been used as a toilet. "It's just pure disgust that veterans will feel to hear this."  The memorial, which depicts a soldier holding a child and a second child standing in front of him, is a monument to more than 30,000 Canadians who died in several conflicts, including the Korean War.  Officials with the National Capital Commission are responsible for maintenance of the monument but were unaware of the incident when contacted yesterday.  "We advised our staff about the problem and it was a high priority for us to have it cleaned immediately," said NCC spokeswoman Chantal Comeau. "We believe these monuments deserve the greatest of respect."  The monument was cleaned around mid-afternoon yesterday ....

_More on link_


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## Harley Sailor (22 Jul 2008)

Just what kind of Pond Sc*m would do a thing like that.  Maybe we should pool our coffee money for a day or two to put a bounty on their heads.  I can't imagine them no bragging to their friends about doing it.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

Mandatory service of 3 years in an Inf Bn should be the punishment for acts like this.  Maybe then they will appreciate what the monument represents and have some respect.  But the punishment should also educate.

Yes.  3 years in a Reg Force Inf Bn should do nicely.  Any Jnr or Snr NCOs on the forum think they could assist in the education of these offenders?


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## Harley Sailor (22 Jul 2008)

This gruff old P2 would love to get them for cleaning station training.

I can also think of other offences that should qualify.  What ever happened to the good old days when they did that.


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## yak (22 Jul 2008)

Probably a junkie or a homeless person stopping and dropping whenever the urge strikes...that's pretty common here in Victoria, anyway.


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## Mike Baker (22 Jul 2008)

I'm just going to hold in what I really want to say, but I'm sure you all know what it is.


 :rage:
Deadpan


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Mandatory service of 3 years in an Inf Bn should be the punishment for acts like this.  Maybe then they will appreciate what the monument represents and have some respect.  But the punishment should also educate.
> 
> Yes.  3 years in a Reg Force Inf Bn should do nicely.  Any Jnr or Snr NCOs on the forum think they could assist in the education of these offenders?



I can't speak for anyone in a current Inf Bn, but speaking as a taxpayer, uh, do we REALLY want folks like this in ANY units?  "Jail or the CF?", to me, isn't necessarily the best recruiting strategy.

That said, if intent to desecrate can be proven, relevant community service might be in order - any ideas?  Say, shoveling the snow from vets' sidewalks or other chores, vigorously enforced?

_- edited to clarify -_


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## WannaBeFlyer (22 Jul 2008)

Maybe I am wrong but why increase his or her audience if it was infact a statement? I think by making this a National story and by including a picture of the defaced monument on the front cover of the Ottawa Sun, you are only rewarding this person's actions or intent. Just clean it up ASAP and look into securing these areas. 



> I can't speak for anyone in a current Inf Bn, but speaking as a taxpayer, uh, do we REALLY want folks like this in ANY units?  "Jail or the CF?", to me, isn't necessarily the best recruiting strategy.
> 
> That said, relevant community service might be in order - any ideas?  Say, shoveling the snow from vets' sidewalks or other chores, vigorously enforced?



How about cleaning public restrooms in the area? Those are always a treat.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> I can't speak for anyone in a current Inf Bn, but speaking as a taxpayer, uh, do we REALLY want folks like this in ANY units?  "Jail or the CF?", to me, isn't necessarily the best recruiting strategy.
> 
> That said, relevant community service might be in order - any ideas?  Say, shoveling the snow from vets' sidewalks or other chores, vigorously enforced?



There are so many ways to motivate, educate and train people.  I'd say it would work.  But yes, add on shovelling snow for vets to the list.  Both would work better than either alone.


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## Harley Sailor (22 Jul 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> I can't speak for anyone in a current Inf Bn, but speaking as a taxpayer, uh, do we REALLY want folks like this in ANY units?  "Jail or the CF?", to me, isn't necessarily the best recruiting strategy.



Seemed to work for me.  That said I had a friend who was given that choice but ended up in jail within five years anyway.  Sometimes it works and for some nothing will work.  All I know for sure is that it will have a hard time working in to-days navy.  There are just to many soft Chiefs around who believe more in rights then in discipline.


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## Edward Campbell (22 Jul 2008)

Here (from the _Sun_ article) is the real problem:



> Black and other group members are concerned that benches near the site could be attracting people who otherwise have nowhere else to go after dark.
> 
> "Homeless people go there at night with their sleeping bags and they stay there until the morning," said Black. "We think those benches should be taken away."
> 
> ...



Ottawa, like every other Canadian city has a full and fair share of homeless people – some of whom are *incapable* of making ration decisions of any kind, others of whom are simply beyond caring.

We used to warehouse those people but, starting back in the late ‘60s “we” (led by the psychiatric/psychological establishment) decided that the big _human warehouses_ were somewhat less than humane. _Community care_, was the order of the day – and it was a whole helluva lot less costly, too – especially when we closed the big old _insane asylums_ (sitting on valuable land) and then didn’t bother to fund expensive _community care_ facilities to replace them. The end result was (and still is) that a large number of the mentally handicapped were turned out on to the streets – without support.

They’ve been there for a generation plus and they’ve been joined by more and more of the same plus an increasing number of disaffected children.

We must not be surprised when this sort of thing happens. We can – and Ottawa probably will – move the problem symptoms to some other neighbourhood – one with fewer _friends_, but we will do nothing about the real problem because to do so would require social spending on people we neither know nor like very much.


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## OldSolduer (22 Jul 2008)

Out her in WInterpeg Tommy Prince's medals (replicas) were removed from his memorial.

Part of the blame lies with us for failing to be critical of those who disrespect our veterans. If some of these people were taken to task, it would send a message that you cannot disrepect those who sacrificed themselves for our freedoms.


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## Neill McKay (22 Jul 2008)

Moody said:
			
		

> Maybe I am wrong but why increase his or her audience if it was infact a statement? I think by making this a National story and by including a picture of the defaced monument on the front cover of the Ottawa Sun, you are only rewarding this person's actions or intent. Just clean it up ASAP and look into securing these areas.



I'd bet a week's pay that it wasn't a statement at all, and maybe a day's pay on the individual not even realizing the significance of the monument.  It probably presented a convenient spot when the urge came, and not much more than that.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

There is lots of spec-fire and 'looking into the crystal ball' to determine 'why' someone did it.  The only person that knows that is the person that did it.  I am more interested in the FACT, and the fact is that things like this should not happen.  Regardless.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (22 Jul 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Ottawa, like every other Canadian city has a full and fair share of homeless people – some of whom are *incapable* of making ration decisions of any kind, others of whom are simply beyond caring.
> 
> They’ve been there for a generation plus and they’ve been joined by more and more of the same plus an increasing number of disaffected children.



Edward, I believe you've hit this right on the head.  I think this is more a reflection of a societal problem that so many of us look the other way at than a wilful and malevolent act designed to demonstrate disrespect for the CF.  As we've seen in the past, active disrespect usually takes the form of spray cans, protest or more visible and permanent acts, often coupled with a political bent.  

The person who did this likely needs help, not punishment - he or she likely did not even realize where they were, just needed a place to conduct a vital bodily function.  To all who've posted fiery rhetoric thus far about jail, pond scum, punishment, threats of violence to the offendors, etc, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.  

As we've seen in other threads and recent attention here, we are all under the microscope with our public comments, so despite the passion of your feelings, I'd ask all to consider what I've said and temper your remarks accordingly.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

I'd like to see something to back these opinions up, or that all opinions be accepted then.  There is neither proof that it was done with malice, or that it was a mentally ill person.  All spec-fire.


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## Michael OLeary (22 Jul 2008)

Do we really need to get into debating the physics of fecal events in order to try and establish whether we need to organize an intervention or a lynching party?


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (22 Jul 2008)

x


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## GAP (22 Jul 2008)

Shoot.....after that I can't say nuttin'.....darn....


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

> I don't care either way who did what to this monument.



Not all of us hold that opinion.  I am actually disappointed to see you say that, knowing your position in the CF.



> I do care that the site's good name is restored and protected from futher tarnish by foolish comments on an emotive subject.



Agreed, but why can't it be that both subjects and concerns are addressed??

My point in my first post re: this thread was to say, perhaps if the person who did this served for a period of time, understood what service is, and can then relate to the conditions the gents that served that this momument was intended for, they would change the way they think, or don't think.

I myself find it hard to believe that, of all the places someone who was in need of relief might pick, that the "X" that marks the spot was on this specific place.  

I don't agree with your position of "so what" to the momument at the namesake of this website, or any website, and would rather have seen you address both issues with equal care and concern....but thats just me.

I'll pop smoke now, and disappear into the low ground WRT this thread.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Jul 2008)

You can't change a leopards spots by changing the name :

I'd be careful about calling out someone's experience, dedication and service around here if I were you.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You can't change a leopards spots by changing the name :
> 
> I'd be careful about calling out someone's experience, dedication and service around here if I were you.



I am not sure where you get that from what I said which was


> I am actually disappointed to see you say that, knowing your position in the CF.



I say what I mean, and mean what I say, and obviously didn't say what you are suggesting I did.


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## Gager (22 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Mandatory service of 3 years in an Inf Bn should be the punishment for acts like this.  Maybe then they will appreciate what the monument represents and have some respect.  But the punishment should also educate.
> 
> Yes.  3 years in a Reg Force Inf Bn should do nicely.  Any Jnr or Snr NCOs on the forum think they could assist in the education of these offenders?



Service in an infantry battalion is an honour not a punishment. We don't need garbage.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

General said:
			
		

> Service in an infantry battalion is an honour



Exactly, which would be the lesson imparted on the person...to take with them the rest of the lives.

Respect for those who serve, from serving themselves and then getting a smick about what its all about.


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## Michael OLeary (22 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Exactly, which would be the lesson imparted on the person...to take with them the rest of the lives.
> 
> Respect for those who serve, from serving themselves and then getting a smick about what its all about.



If that theory actually worked effectively, then the Army would long ago have lobbied for the apocryphal "jail or the recruiter" to have become a normal method of obtaining recruits.

The truth is, we cannot make good soldiers of of most of the folks in the judicial system because they don't have the parts to begin with.  Most denizens of the judicial system are not the misled unfortunates that people think we can rebuild into good citizens.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Jul 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> I Most denizens of the judicial system are not the misled unfortunates that people think we can rebuild into good citizens.



Hallelujah brother...


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## PMedMoe (22 Jul 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Do we really need to get into debating the physics of fecal events in order to try and establish whether we need to organize an intervention or a lynching party?



I guess the point I was trying to make was missed.
I have removed the post in question.  My apologies.


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## NL_engineer (22 Jul 2008)

Well to add to it, there was another monument vandalized last night in a park in St. John's, NL.  The monument is dedicated to all the Newfoundlanders who lost there lives during the first world war.  Just seen the story on the on a local news flash, hopefully I will be able to post a link.


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## 54/102 CEF (22 Jul 2008)

Its a saluting area in the heart of skid row - hence of military interest - so maybe a military / civil authority solution is in order

You may wish to check this webpage http://www.ottawa.ca/city_hall/mayor_council/mayor/index_en.html

Hizzonner Larry O`Brian Mayor of the monument challenged down town core email *Larry.OBrien@ottawa.ca*

Alternatively you may wish to tell the Lord Elgin Hotel staff your concerns  about staying in the best hotel near the monument http://www.lordelginhotel.ca/contact_us/index.aspx


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## armyvern (22 Jul 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Well to add to it, there was another monument vandalized last night in a park in St. John's, NL.  The monument is dedicated to all the Newfoundlanders who lost there lives during the first world war.  Just seen the story on the on a local news flash, hopefully I will be able to post a link.



Here you go ...

_Reproduced under the fairdealings provisions of the copyright act ..._

St. John's mayor furious...



> The mayor of St. John's is furious after vandals sprayed graffiti on The Fighting Newfoundlander monument in a well-known public park.
> 
> 22/07/2008 4:31:21 PM
> 
> ...


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (23 Jul 2008)

Kind of a little bit of a highjack, but relating to disrespect....
Today while we were out the Highway of Heroes waiting for Cpl Arnal's return, some bonehead stopped and waved over a gentleman putting up his flags and and asked "How much is Harper paying you to be here?" Of course, this respectful gentleman told him to f**k off.  If it had been me I would of told him 'probably about the same as get from him for being an a$$hole'.  And a little later so bonehead leans out her window while going under the overpass and holds up both of her middle fingers at us.  I am glad it was us and not Cpl Arnal's family that had to see it. 
It boggles my mind that people go out of there way to be so rude and disrespectful.  

Debating about who and why people do this stuff, is kind of pointless.  

At the end of the day, I know what is right. Some jacka$$ taking a dump on a war memorial, some jacka$$ giving me the finger as I pay my respects to the fallen or some jacka$$ making a point to say something rude does not in anyway shape or form take away anything from how I feel.  I certainly WILL NOT change my feelings or convictions.  And karma's will get them good. >

And now back to our regularly scheduled program....


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## Love793 (23 Jul 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> I can't speak for anyone in a current Inf Bn, but speaking as a taxpayer, uh, do we REALLY want folks like this in ANY units?  "Jail or the CF?", to me, isn't necessarily the best recruiting strategy.
> 
> That said, if intent to desecrate can be proven, relevant community service might be in order - any ideas?  Say, shoveling the snow from vets' sidewalks or other chores, vigorously enforced?
> 
> _- edited to clarify -_



I can think of a place about a 1 hour and a half from there, where they can shovel snow (plus run for groceries and the other milions of tasks that fall into the laps of spouses).


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## Snafu-Bar (23 Jul 2008)

Snow shoveling... how about they get a ride to BMQ or a healthy stay in one of our fine military prisons... no snow shoveling isn't nearly punishment enough.


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## North Star (23 Jul 2008)

The St John's case is by far the worst, as it appears the vandals knew what they were doing and made a reasoned choice to do what they did. As for the Ottawa incident, other members are correct - it's not intentional disrespect per se but mentally disturbed homeless people who likely committed the act. They're a fact of life for people in uniform working in Ottawa. While I don't defend what they did any punishment has to be balanced with the realization that military monuments in the public space are magnets for the disturbed. 

With regards to the incident on the Highway of Heroes: there are many simple-minded folks who cling to politics because it gives them hope, a sense of connectivity in a disconnected world, etc. They've bought into the whole left versus right thing to give themselves meaning. For some of those who happened to latch onto the left (and wear those ironic, offensive Che T-shirts), the rise in popularity of the CF, our "war of aggression for oil in Afghanistan", and the rise of the Conservative Party have blown them away. See them for what they are: petty people who need to feel like a somebody by engaging in petty yet shocking acts like giving the finger to people they identify as "right-wingers". 

They are nobodies: to be treated as nobodies is their worst fear. So do so.


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## Mike Baker (23 Jul 2008)

North Star said:
			
		

> The St John's case is by far the worst, as it appears the vandals knew what they were doing and made a reasoned choice to do what they did.


I agree. The bas*ards :rage:

Wish I knew who done it....

-Deadpan


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## WannaBeFlyer (23 Jul 2008)

North Star said:
			
		

> They are nobodies: to be treated as nobodies is their worst fear. So do so.



I agree. That was where I was trying to go with my previous post. I wish these acts did not receive attention from the media but I doubt that will happen.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jul 2008)

How come there are no signs suggesting we cut off their heads?


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## fire_guy686 (23 Jul 2008)

I think in cases such as the one in St.John's those who are caught,if they ever are, should have to go stand in front of the vets and explain to them why they treated a monument dedicated to those they fought with like total crap. That is on top of any other sort of punishment they receive. I would say standing in front of the vet's and seeing the emotions they would probably have towards them would be a bit of an eye opener.


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## Mike Baker (23 Jul 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> How come there are no signs suggesting we cut off their heads?



I think some people are a little disturbed by that, but that's just my opinion.


-Dead


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## slowmode (23 Jul 2008)

I read this in the news paper yesterday. After reading it man I would volunteer to guard this monument. Or any monument in Ottawa representing our soldiers and vets. I wish they allowed you to do this.


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## 54/102 CEF (24 Jul 2008)

What's needed is zero tolerance for anything negatively impacting special sites

With respect - I don`t see the joint City / CITIZENS/ Military effort on the Korean Monument


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## Rodders (24 Jul 2008)

If indeed this act was deliberate, that is, some bizarre expression against the CF/military/whatever, I don't find it any more or less disrespectful than someone vandalizing a gravestone. I find all such things repugnant, regardless of (if any) motivation.

However, I strongly suspect that some here are giving far more credence to the underlying reasons for this action than are probably warranted. I have no idea what their motives were, but I think it most likely that it was the result of mental instability (not knowing/caring where they were taking a dump). Of course there are people who have temporary mental instability brought on by mood alterers both legal and illegal.

While the action itself is unquestionably disgusting (we are talking about feces after all), and socially distasteful, I don't think it worth one's time to assume that this is an attack against anything in particular. 

Just the thoughts of someone who hasn't posted in a really long time.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (24 Jul 2008)

Yeah, with the st.johns one, I saw feedback on the news from descendents of ww1 veterans, moving.

Im not sure why theyd do this. Mindless anti-war protestors trying to make a statement in a stupid sort of way (which is turning up time to time), or vandlas trying to see their work on the news, I dunno, just dunno...


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## greenjacket (24 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Mandatory service of 3 years in an Inf Bn should be the punishment for acts like this.  Maybe then they will appreciate what the monument represents and have some respect.  But the punishment should also educate.
> 
> Yes.  3 years in a Reg Force Inf Bn should do nicely.  Any Jnr or Snr NCOs on the forum think they could assist in the education of these offenders?



i can't speak for the reg force, but we wouldn't want someone like that in my regiment, someone like that probley wouldn't finnish BMQ


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## NL_engineer (24 Jul 2008)

Deadpan said:
			
		

> I agree. The bas*ards :rage:
> 
> Wish I knew who done it....
> 
> -Deadpan



If your going to hunt them, send me a pm and I'll help  ;D


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## wannabe SF member (24 Jul 2008)

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hBvVtPnLBVwKm_snlqa-HjAlmnyg

This time it was actually at the Vimy monument!
People are disgusting sometimes.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jul 2008)

greenjacket said:
			
		

> i can't speak for the reg force, but we wouldn't want someone like that in my regiment, someone like that probley wouldn't finnish BMQ



Perhaps you don't know how to properly motivate problem trainee's then.  I have motivated them in the past.   ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Jul 2008)

Well unless the suspects are caught, charged and convicted, there's no real need for this to continue. Visiting violence on someone, drafting them into a FFL type of boot camp, or turning them over to a 'motivational expert' is not the theme of the thread. Everyone's had a chance to vent and project their disgust, and four pages is enough.

If something that has to do with the actual incident takes place and is published, contact a Mod. Usual caveats apply.

Locked.

Milnet.ca Staff


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