# Army.ca Ideology -- what is it?



## strongchristian

I hope I can spark an academic debate, and not rile anyone up.

As far as I can see anyone can join this site and voice their opinion on here (like free speech in the real world). I personally feel this is very good.

However, the way things are run here seems to show little separation from official military way. Examples include threads where opinions or statements made by people with less or no military experience are belittled or even censored out, even when they may be making a valid refute to an "established" person's post. I see other "green" members getting reprimanded for taking a shot at someone "established", even if the experienced military person was far more disrespectful in the thread. It would seem that nothing is said to them.

I don't think it's necessary to manage the site this way. Say a newbie makes XYZ claim, everyone can see from his experience in his personal information what it's based on, and they can take it for what its worth. Just like real life. Anyone is free to jump on him with their reasoning, or even laugh at his ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim. That's free speech. But if we go past this and block his right to say something, even if he is not the brightest bulb, then it is not free speech anymore.

In the interest of brevity, I will sum up with the following: If Army.ca creates a forum where experienced or non-experienced personnel, military or civilian, anyone, can freely discuss matters on an even playing field, *then I think something very great and original has been created here.* If it fails to show any distinction from the hierarchical or "class" system, which is present in both military and civilian world, then I think it fails to be something special of its own.

So, what is the forum's ideology? What should it be?



That all being said, I would like to thank the moderators for the time they put in -- I really do enjoy this site!


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## Manimal

being that so many youth post here, and many have the same questions, over and over and over again, i understand the need for directing staff. but i feel there is too much censorship for the WWW, and not enough tolerance. 
IMO if you don't like a topic or a poster, don't read it.....


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## OLD F of S

This is after all Army.ca I expect it to reflect the military way of doing things.  As for expierienced versus inexperiened again I expect the mods to assume control that is their job to sort us out as required. This a well run forum and anyone can post within the guidelines, to me the biggest problem is posters not filling out their profile I admit I check and it does tend to affect how much I consider the post.


                                Regards OLD F of S


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## Ex-Dragoon

Folks this is a private website funded by Mike Bobbitt. If we let the rules slide we would become just like militaryphotos.net with no direction and very few quality posts done by posers. If this forum becomes a haven for posers and wannabes, then you will drive the more knowledgeable and core membership away. Who wants to read 20,000 posts on what weapon is better the AK47 or the M16? Or who is the best Special Operations Group? I don't. 99% of the forum members don't either, hence we sometimes come down hard on people. Like the military, you have to prove yourself, and its usually the first impressions that last.
    If you have an issue with the way the site is moderated I suggest you get in touch with Mike Bobbitt via pm and when he can he will address your concers.


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## Mike Bobbitt

strongchristian,

Probably the easiest way to address your concerns is on case by case basis. Speaking to generalizations probably won't get you the level of detail you're looking for. If you want to pick out a few representative examples that make your case, we can discuss those individually.

Army.ca's ideology is to be a "meeting place" for those with an interest in the Canadian Army.

As Ex-Dragoon mentioned above, we see a lot of users whose purpose (intended or not) is to disrupt this site with inappropriate, repetitive or off topic discussions. Thankfully, through the work of the Staff, the "general population" doesn't see most of these. The downside is that in order to be able to keep thing running smoothly, sometimes innocent posters (generally those who have not read the Guidelines, but not always) are caught up in the dragnet.

I submit that it is the users who come here to disrupt, and not the Staff or senior members, that are the source of the problem. That is, they have necessarily put us on the defensive, and unfortunately when we operate in this mode, we lose a bit of our "freedom" as a site. The alternative is to open the gates, allowing everyone more unlimited access, but the results of that may not be as positive as you'd initially expect. Over the last 11 years, we've found a method that we believe strikes a balance between keeping the peace and allowing free discussion.

As always, we are open to review so if you have specific cases you'd like to discuss, we can certainly do that. Please also bear in mind that there are plenty of "unseen" cases that would likely make your hair raise, that the Staff have to deal with on a near daily basis.


Cheers
Mike


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## Manimal

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Folks this is a private website funded by Mike Bobbitt. If we let the rules slide we would become just like militaryphotos.net with no direction and very few quality posts done by posers. If this forum becomes a haven for posers and wannabes, then you will drive the more knowledgeable and core membership away. Who wants to read 20,000 posts on what weapon is better the AK47 or the M16? Or who is the best Special Operations Group? I don't. 99% of the forum members don't either, hence we sometimes come down hard on people. Like the military, you have to prove yourself, and its usually the first impressions that last.
> If you have an issue with the way the site is moderated I suggest you get in touch with Mike Bobbitt via pm and when he can he will address your concers.




i like that!


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## Springroll

I can understand what is being said by both sides, but here are my observations.

If you are not a member of the CF, you get crapped on" for having no experience, you are bel;ittled(I have seen a few posts of this< and what really gets me is when someone posts on here, and the topic has been brought up before, someone decideds it is their duty to scold the person for not searching first.

This forum is run very differently than the others that I am on, and even in here, being told I should watch what I say because I am wanting to join and my course instructors are on here....well that is just wrong.

I know this is a private owned forum, but you have to take responsibility for those that you have join and how they treat the other members on here, regardless of CF experience or not.

Just my $0.02 worth.


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## Manimal

yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ass. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.


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## Springroll

Manimal said:
			
		

> yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
> what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
> mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.



I agree. There are some awesome members on here that are very knowledgable and are very good at explaining things, and then you have those jack arses who like to be jerks, but that goes with every forum on the internet.


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## Manimal

fact is though, this isn't the army, and you don't talk to people like that..... i think some of these tough guys should pull that at the bar some night LOL


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## Island Ryhno

I see Bruce will be along shortly to help sort out your issues  ;D As for this board, I think you will find that there are two distinct types of threads, Opinion and Fact. Now everyone has an opinion, it's normal human behaviour and if you think it through, formulate it and then type it in a comprehensible manner it will be debated. If you're taliking through your hat, you'll be called on it. It works the same way in real life, yes even in the bars, where the "real tough guys" hang out. Now on the Fact based threads, this is how it works: people in the know and with the experience rule the thread with an iron fist, because misinformation is very troubling. You can't have one wannabe running about with the wrong info from another wannabe now can you? Also, sometimes Opinion crosses Facts and what you get is FOPINION or false facts based on an opinion. Very messy stuff indeed. The bottom line here is, stay in your arc and your feelings will not get hurt. If you are on an Opinion based thread and want to debate with people, yes even the staff, then have at 'er. In a respectfully hot tempered manner of course. If you are on a Facts based thread and want to have it out, well you better the one with all the t-shirts. Oye, I love this board, keep up the good work I say.


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## Springroll

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> In a respectfully hot tempered manner of course.



Not everyone is giving everyone else the respect that is deserved!!


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Quotes from Manimal,
_yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.

fact is though, this isn't the army, and you don't talk to people like that..... i think some of these tough guys should pull that at the bar some night LOL_

Folks, 
if you need to see posts that drives home the need for "staff involvement", I give you the above display..............

Manimal,
go pull your internet tough guy act somewhere else, this is your warning........

EDIT: Thanks, Ryhno for that. Just to add something here that Ryhno touched on, yes I am DS here, but go through my posts and see how many times I put info into the "fact" based threds,....almost never, as I have no knowledge the "better, faster, harder" and instead use this forum to help fill in those gaps instead of trying to BS my way through,....I mean really, what does that accomplish?


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## Manimal

i try to type with respect! it's not always returned. 
when i type fact, i make sure i'm 110% on with it. or i make sure it's known it's my opinion. i've never passed anything on as fact when i don't know..... but still met with rudeness.

i do hear what you are saying about needing the right info out there, i agree, but it can be done with respect!


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## Danjanou

Manimal said:
			
		

> yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
> what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
> mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.



Don't be sure of that. You act like an immature punk in person and I'll treat you the same way on the street as in here. 

On the other hand, act like a mature individual and I'm more inclined to share a beer with you and listen to your point of view on just about any subject under the sun even those I disagree with ( as long as you can provide me with a factual rationale debate)  and that goes for whether you're a recruit just sworn in or the CDS. Most of the DS that I know here are they same way.

Fact is this place is called army.ca and as often noted it does mirror military society in many respects. That means rules and a certain hierarchy exist here. Don't like it no one chained you to your keyboard and forced you to post here. Want to set up your own site and espouse "your" ideal philosophy" fill your boots. Hey send me the link and I may even drop. Mind if I don't like it understand I may not stay there. I like it here just fine the way it is. Still would even if I wasn't one the "privileged DS."

There's a mechanism in place to report abuse of the site including perceived abuse of and by DS. It works too. Probably because we based it on the same systems we all learned in uniform. 

Ex Dragoon mentioned militaryphotos.net. Anyone who wants to see the "ideal cyber community" that some here are advocating this place should be, are more than welcome to take a visit over there. Go fast though because I seriously doubt it's going to be around much longer. Either the site owner and mods turn it into a version of this place and soon or it's going to collapse on itself.

Edit: Name the bar troop and we'll test your theory.  8)


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## Manimal

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quotes from Manimal,
> _yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
> what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
> mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.
> 
> fact is though, this isn't the army, and you don't talk to people like that..... i think some of these tough guys should pull that at the bar some night LOL_
> 
> Folks,
> if you need to see posts that drives home the need for "staff involvement", I give you the above display..............
> 
> Manimal,
> go pull your internet tough guy act somewhere else, this is your warning........
> 
> EDIT: Thanks, Ryhno for that. Just to add something here that Ryhno touched on, yes I am DS here, but go through my posts and see how many times I put info into the "fact" based threds,....almost never, as I have no knowledge the "better, faster, harder" and instead use this forum to help fill in those gaps instead of trying to BS my way through,....I mean really, what does that accomplish?




i wasn't being tough, i was pointing out how other do it.... point made, 'warning' taken.


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## Springroll

Can I name the bar and we can go have a few???

I am really needing to get out of the house more..hehehe ;D


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## muskrat89

Refer to the conduct guidelines, and the moderator guidelines. If anyone feels like they have been mistreated, they can PM Mike. If it didn't upset you enough to send him a PM, then - quite frankly - too bad. If you have specific, constructive suggestions - post them or PM Mike. I haven't seen a case yet where he didn't respond to legitimate questions or suggestions. At the end of the day, no one is being forced at gun point to log on to this site.

Springroll - saying that your instructors or peoples' superiors may be on this site is a heads up, and a fact of life - not a threat. When people are  total morons, we usually let them prattle on and find out for themselves. Despite your propensity to have the final word in almost every discussion, someone obviously thought enough of you that they should mention it.

We have had these types of threads before, and I predict a lock is not too far away. People complain. Other people dogpile on to the complainers. Staff gets tired of keeping an eye on the mess, while allowing (within reason) people to complain about the job they are doing.


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## Manimal

man, i don't drink, but i'm always willing to accompany a lady out   king with lines.


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## Manimal

all in all, most of the staff are great, and some of the members are really great. 
so all in all, you take the good with the bad. i'm not going to lose any sleep over being treated poorly by some ass on the net. 
i'm just tired and bitching about it now.

so before i stick my foot in my mouth. thanks guys for the great site, i really do love it. and you're probably doing the right thing, even though i don't see the big picture....(cause of my lack of experience here)


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## Gunnar

Think of it this way...this is a soldier's mess that allows civvies inside.   The rules are essentially those with which the soldiers feel comfortable, and designed to keep it as a soldier's mess that allows civvies inside.   It is not permitted to morph into a public bar with soldiers in it.   These soldiers are letting you drink with them, and inasmuch as they feel you deserve it, they'll occasionally buy a round and let you do the same.

Think of it as the military embassy to the rest of the world.   Just because you're allowed in the embassy doesn't mean you get to tell the ambassadors how to do things, nor do you get to sit in their chairs.

And yes...sometimes they're just plain too hard on people.   Military professionals or not, they get tired, get drunk, get fed up just like the rest of us...and this is their bar, and we're just friendlies asking wide-eyed questions about what it's like to be a soldier.   I'm not always sure that I always agree with moderator decisions either...but I have noticed something:   They are pretty consistent on what they will or won't allow.   This means that even if the rules are not popular with some, they are clear and understandable, and once you've read a few threads and seen a few "acts of moderation" you should be able to figure out where the boundaries lie.

To try to let you see the big picture...say you meet someone, invite them back to your place for a few beers...you talk about your shared interest in cars and chicks...and then the guy goes on and on about your taste in furniture and how it's arranged, and how he wouldn't arrange his furniture that way, and you obviously don't know anything about cars and chicks because just one look at your furniture and you can tell that.....you'd think that this guy was a complete doofus, and you wouldn't invite him back.

Soldiers operate on certain shared principles that they expect to be in place...they've become men (and women, but I mean it in the sense of 'becoming a man' - autonomous, responsible, thinking person) by accepting responsibility for their actions, having good reasons for what they do, and not pretending to have more experience than they actually have...because failure to do any of these things in a theatre of combat gets people killed.   When someone comes into this 'soldiers mess' and makes statements, their comments are given all the respect they would get if the comment came from another soldier (or someone who 'gets it')....until it's obvious they're operating outside of these principles.   Then, because it's a public web-site, they take escalating corrective measures until they can weed out those who are switched on from those who aren't.

So take your warning in the spirit it was intended...just a friendly hand on the shoulder from someone of more experience.   This seems to be what you're doing anyway....carry on...

(modified to add---actually, it appears I've answered the original question...the ideology is autonomy, responsibility and considered action...not pretending to me more than you are...intellectual honesty....)


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## Springroll

Just refer everyone to 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html


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## muskrat89

Wow - excellent post, Gunnar


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## Gunnar

Thank you.  I learned some of that from you giving ME hell.

Apparently, I can be taught.  Who knew?


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## kilekaldar

This seems to be mostly a civvy vs military(serving or retired) thing, which I can understand.
As a a fairly new Pte. I still recall the culture shock of being told in Basic that 'respect' was not freely given, it had to be earned over time and hard work. I believe that this is the issue here, military folk tend to want people to prove themselves worthy of trust and respect, while civilians want it all instantly because they think it's their right. 
Well, this site is called "Army.ca", it's run in a military manner, so my advice to the complainers is to suck it up and deal. Like a soldier would.


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## canadianblue

I've been ripped into by the staff over a comment were I referenced guns I used on Rainbow Six in a discussion and I don't care. The reason why is because they showed me how much of an idiot I was, and I won't do it ever again. So the staff are here to straighten people out as well, I am currently on a LE website, blueline.ca, have been a member for about a year and a half and were having huge problems now. Primarily because theirs more then our fair share of childish name calling and cheapshots going around on pretty well every topic, and more then a few members are considering leaving because of it. On here we have alot more serious members about what they want to do. 

I am currently a civilian simply enrolled to become a Signal Operator in the Regular Force. Just for the record I am happy with the job the directing staff do on this board, and to keep it up.


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## kilekaldar

Nice to see a new Sig coming in, we're so shortstaffed it's crazy. Welcome to the new Army.

Valor, Speed, Vigilance.


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## patrick666

Think of the moderators (or people with superior rank and significant experience) as your instructors and what would happen if you acted that way towards them? Exactly the same thing. Personally, I've learned a lot from many people here simply by lurking and reading post after post. When I feel I have something worthwhile to contribute to the debate then I will say it. If I want to talk outta my a$$ then I'll fart. 

Also, if you are planning on a career in the forces and are having trouble handling some internet discipline think of what it's going to be like when you're in basic, 3inches away from the instructor yelling in your face.. I'd say you have it easy here... 

Kudos to the staff for maintaining a professional forum for intelligent debate. 

Cheers


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## paracowboy

the ideology? Something like this: When a man is down, kick him in the teeth and give him a reason to stand up.

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. 
Teach him to fish, you feed him for life. 
Give a man a fire, you warm him for a night. 
Set him on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life. 

 :


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## Kat Stevens

Ah, para...heart of a killer, soul of a poet  ;D....always a pleasure...

Kat


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## the 48th regulator

Strongchristian,

I believe Springroll and Manimal have demonstrated why we are the way we are here, at army.ca

Springroll



> Not everyone is giving everyone else the respect that is deserved!!



Respect is earned, not deserved....

dileas

tess


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## Springroll

There is a level of respect that every human on this earth deserves. 

I agree that respect is earned in most cases.


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## Britney Spears

Well, I'm here on a personal jihad to convert you all into intelligent, reasonable,  Bush hating, Gay marriage loving, Iraq war protesting liberal vegetarians. 


Just sayin', is all...... Hope I'm not out of my lane or anything.


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## Cloud Cover

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Well, I'm here on a personal jihad to convert you all into intelligent, reasonable,   Bush hating, Gay marriage loving, Iraq war protesting liberal vegetarians.
> 
> 
> Just sayin', is all...... Hope I'm not out of my lane or anything.



No disrespect or nuthin' but you forgot "enviromentally friendly"...


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## muskrat89

> Well, I'm here on a personal jihad to convert you all into intelligent, reasonable,  Bush hating, Gay marriage loving, Iraq war protesting liberal vegetarians.



We noticed..


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## big_johnson1

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Strongchristian,
> 
> I believe Springroll and Manimal have demonstrated why we are the way we are here, at army.ca
> 
> tess



Maybe I'm stirring the pot here but what happened to the guidelines?  ;D

Quoted from the guidelines:

Expectation of Respect between Users

All visitors, regardless of age, rank or experience are to be treated as equal unless their conduct dictates otherwise. That means the veteran servicemember and the green private are to assume that they have as much to benefit from the other as they have to offer the other until a reason to contrary is made known. Age, nor number of years excuses anyone from behaving in a manner that isn't civil and polite.

And yes, I didn't forget the part that said to respect the moderators, just pointing out the part that deals with treating everyone as equal.


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## strongchristian

Some really good replies here. I see that my question has been answered, from the site owner no less, so I appreciate that. I could have PM'd but that wasn't my goal; I wanted to bring up a discussion that anyone could partake in. I am all for the rules being enforced, I just think it is important this line is not overstepped, so that we are not censoring out things we just don't want to hear. I understand the challenge in striking a balance.

I think its useful to discuss the goal of a site like this, especially when it is as big as it is. It is not affiliated with the DND, but the fact is that a lot of potential recruits will come here first seeking information when they are thinking about joining. It is undoubtably a factor in the decision-making process of potential recruits. To them the lines will be blurred between official and unofficial. As well they should, you have lots of high-ranking people here, that use their names no less, weighing in on their posts (and hopefully not telling them to shut their trap). I don't think this site is a near being a bully-fest, but it is something to keep in mind as to what _not_ to be.


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## Sig_Des

Feral said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm stirring the pot here but what happened to the guidelines?   ;D
> 
> Quoted from the guidelines:
> 
> Expectation of Respect between Users
> 
> All visitors, regardless of age, rank or experience are to be treated as equal unless their conduct dictates otherwise. That means the veteran servicemember and the green private are to assume that they have as much to benefit from the other as they have to offer the other until a reason to contrary is made known. Age, nor number of years excuses anyone from behaving in a manner that isn't civil and polite.
> 
> And yes, I didn't forget the part that said to respect the moderators, just pointing out the part that deals with treating everyone as equal.



Feral,

keep in mind, you have to look over all the posts in past...if people are continuiously trying to get in the last word, or justify comments that are either not accurate or just plain wrong, you start losing face.

If you look at people who have been posting on this site for a long time, you will see a difference in early posts to more recent. I know personally, I joined this site as a much younger civillian, and now as a (still somewhat young) member of the military, I see differences in posts myself.

I think the moderators do an excellent job of weeding out the problems, and as previously mentioned, they are consistent. You will also find that it has occured where an DS has maybe snapped at someone, but will also find an apology or an explanation for its occurence..

also, extremely well put in your post, Gunnar


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## a_majoor

Springroll said:
			
		

> I know this is a private owned forum,* but you have to take responsibility for those that you have join and how they treat the other members on here, regardless * of CF experience or not.



That sums up the ideology most members and posters on Army.ca are against. You are responsible for your own conduct, reading and following the rules, and making sure your posts are sensible and of interest to other members. Just as rude and disruptive behavior is frowned upon in public and private places in the real world, it is also frowned upon here, and you can and will be "escorted off the premises" by some burly bouncers or the owner if you do not choose to take responsibility for your actions.


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## Slim

The world we live in, specifically outside the CF, is not the same place it was 10 years ago.

Personal responsability has somehow been lost along the wayside.

Allot of people, when they join the CF, are rudely awakened by a demand of personal behaviour and accountability that they are not (at first) able to provide, and so must be "taught" it by basic training and then further training, which changes your conduct and thought process from "mememe" to "teamteamteam."

This website is allot like the CF in that we (the owner and mods) DEMAND a measure of personal accountability when a member posts here. Its demanded from everyone and don't think for a moment that mods are exempt...We just don't do it in the open where the masses can see it. 

The short version - You are responsible to post correctly, properly, not to provide bad info and not to stray out of your lane. Filling out one's profile is also a key step to being successful here.

If you follow the rules and listen when "guided" by those more senior then all will be well.

If, on occasion, you have to be "nudged" back into your lane by a mod then take the criticism and learn from it.

Slim


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## Ex-Dragoon

We are all consumers here. How many have bought something only to find out they did something wrong and read the directions for the first time to see where their error was? I have. Some of you as well have. Think of the Conduct Guidelines and the FAQs as those instructions we should all read. Guaranteed if all took the time to read them, a lot of these issues would be avoided.


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## Warvstar

Manimal said:
			
		

> being that so many youth post here, and many have the same questions, over and over and over again, i understand the need for directing staff. but i feel there is too much censorship for the WWW, and not enough tolerance.
> IMO if you don't like a topic or a poster, don't read it.....


Personally I like the clean forums.
strongchristian why did you post this here instead of mailing it to the Administrators? Specially when it dosent matter because this is not a public forum, but owned by Mike Bobbit.




			
				Slim said:
			
		

> The world we live in, specifically outside the CF, is not the same place it was 10 years ago.
> 
> Personal responsability has somehow been lost along the wayside.
> 
> Allot of people, when they join the CF, are rudely awakened by a demand of personal behaviour and accountability that they are not (at first) able to provide, and so must be "taught" it by basic training and then further training, which changes your conduct and thought process from "mememe" to "teamteamteam."
> 
> This website is allot like the CF in that we (the owner and mods) DEMAND a measure of personal accountability when a member posts here. Its demanded from everyone and don't think for a moment that mods are exempt...We just don't do it in the open where the masses can see it.
> 
> The short version - You are responsible to post correctly, properly, not to provide bad info and not to stray out of your lane. Filling out one's profile is also a key step to being successful here.
> 
> If you follow the rules and listen when "guided" by those more senior then all will be well.
> 
> If, on occasion, you have to be "nudged" back into your lane by a mod then take the criticism and learn from it.
> 
> Slim


I agree with Slim's message


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## strongchristian

Warvstar, read the first line of my original post.


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## Mike Bobbitt

Thanks all, some good discussion and points on all sides. I won't re-iterate the excellent comments made above except to add that we as Staff are continually re-assessing our approach, so feedback like this is valuable in letting us know how things are working. Just as you have to "earn our respect" we have to earn yours.


Cheers
Mike


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## spenco

Springroll said:
			
		

> There is a level of respect that every human on this earth deserves.
> 
> I agree that respect is earned in most cases.



I take exception to this, you are mixing up respect and courtesy.   While everyone deserves some courtesy, like you said, respect is earned and not given.


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## Springroll

spenco said:
			
		

> I take exception to this, you are mixing up respect and courtesy.   While everyone deserves some courtesy, like you said, respect is earned and not given.



But there are rules about respect on this forum:

_Expectation of Respect between Users

All visitors, regardless of age, rank or experience are to be treated as equal unless their conduct dictates otherwise. That means the veteran servicemember and the green private are to assume that they have as much to benefit from the other as they have to offer the other until a reason to contrary is made known. Age, nor number of years excuses anyone from behaving in a manner that isn't civil and polite.

And yes, I didn't forget the part that said to respect the moderators, just pointing out the part that deals with treating everyone as equal._

So the two, in this case, go together hand in hand.


----------



## Sig_Des

Springroll said:
			
		

> But there are rules about respect on this forum:
> 
> _Expectation of Respect between Users
> 
> All visitors, regardless of age, rank or experience are to be treated as equal unless their conduct dictates otherwise. That means the veteran servicemember and the green private are to assume that they have as much to benefit from the other as they have to offer the other until a reason to contrary is made known. Age, nor number of years excuses anyone from behaving in a manner that isn't civil and polite.
> 
> And yes, I didn't forget the part that said to respect the moderators, just pointing out the part that deals with treating everyone as equal._
> 
> So the two, in this case, go together hand in hand.



There's a difference between being civil and polite, to respecting someone, and Showing someone respect:

3. respect - an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him" 
and
 2. respect - show respect towards; "honor your parents!"

showing someone respect includes being civil and polite...having respect for someone, THAT is which is earned. Just because I show you respect, doesn't mean I respect you  8)


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Back on topic please!


----------



## GerryCan

How about Springroll and Manimal dig up the discussions where they were apparently 'disrespected' because I don't seem to remember those posts, although I could have easily missed them. 

Don't think of it as being 'disrespected.' Think of it as being sorted out, something all of us need at one point in our lives and careers.
For as long as I've been reading this site, I have Never seen Directing Staff blatantly disrespect someone for any one reason or another, DS are sometimes harder on some moreso than others to merely drive the point home.

So find me a post where people are being disrespected and maybe I'll buy into your claims, until then I'll use a saying that you will be hearing sooner than later if you plan to join the army. Suck it up, butter cup!

With as many rules we have in the military regarding civil rights, ethics etc. it is still an army. People will disrespect you at one point or another, and people will belittle you. Especially if you constantly complain about it.


----------



## Burrows

GerryCan said:
			
		

> How about Springroll and Manimal dig up the discussions where they were apparently 'disrespected' because I don't seem to remember those posts, although I could have easily missed them.
> 
> Don't think of it as being 'disrespected.' Think of it as being sorted out, something all of us need at one point in our lives and careers.
> For as long as I've been reading this site, I have Never seen Directing Staff blatantly disrespect someone for any one reason or another, DS are sometimes harder on some moreso than others to merely drive the point home.
> 
> So find me a post where people are being disrespected and maybe I'll buy into your claims, until then I'll use a saying that you will be hearing sooner than later if you plan to join the army. Suck it up, butter cup!
> 
> With as many rules we have in the military regarding civil rights, ethics etc. it is still an army. People will disrespect you at one point or another, and people will belittle you. Especially if you constantly complain about it.



Took the words right out of my mouth GerryCan.


----------



## NavComm

At the risk of being one of those rude forum members who insults newbies and civvies, I have to say this whole thread is bolox (can I say that word here?  :-X )

If people would give more thought to their posts - rather than typing out every thought that pops into their head and then hitting 'send' - maybe members would be more tolerant. I've been away and without internet access since June so I was really looking forward to catching up on the discussions here.

One of the first threads I got on had a kid from britain typing in complete msn speak. I moved on...the next had another fairly  new member asking the same question in 2 different threads, (guess she didn't like the hugs and tea she was receiving in one and decided to open another thread on the same topic - herself)

I finally found what I was looking for on other threads started by more experienced members that included the one on Smokey Smith's legacy, the comments of Carolyn Parrish and basically things that interest me as a member of the CF and as a Canadian.

For my .02 I think newbies should not be allowed to start new threads until they've proven they understand and can use the SEARCH function 

Anyway, to the moderators and Mike Bobbitt, thank you for providing this forum....keep up the good work!


----------



## Springroll

GerryCan said:
			
		

> How about Springroll and Manimal dig up the discussions where they were apparently 'disrespected' because I don't seem to remember those posts, although I could have easily missed them.



Read my first post in this thread.


----------



## Springroll

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> There's a difference between being civil and polite, to respecting someone, and Showing someone respect:
> 
> 3. respect - an attitude of admiration or esteem; "she lost all respect for him"
> and
> 2. respect - show respect towards; "honor your parents!"
> 
> showing someone respect includes being civil and polite...having respect for someone, THAT is which is earned. Just because I show you respect, doesn't mean I respect you   8)



Yes, I agree with showing someone respect, I had not thought of it that way. Thank you for posting that.


----------



## strongchristian

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> Thanks all, some good discussion and points on all sides. I won't re-iterate the excellent comments made above except to add that we as Staff are continually re-assessing our approach, so feedback like this is valuable in letting us know how things are working. Just as you have to "earn our respect" we have to earn yours.
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Mike



This is great leadership!   And such timely service for my queries here at army.ca, all in one business day  8)


----------



## GerryCan

Springroll said:
			
		

> Read my first post in this thread.



Oh I read it, and I still don't see what you're getting at.

Moderators enforce the use of the Search function to keep strain off the server with unnecessary topics started when one can search and most likely find what they were looking for in the first place. Is that what you're getting at with the scolding?


----------



## Springroll

OK. I was referring to a bunch of posts I have come across on here where the newbie is automatically jumped on for not utilizing the search function.

Sorry if I did not state it clearly...I am in the midst of trying to quit smoking and things seems quite garbled in my head...lol


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

Springroll said:
			
		

> OK. I was referring to a bunch of posts I have come across on here where the newbie is automatically jumped on for not utilizing the search function.
> 
> Sorry if I did not state it clearly...I am in the midst of trying to quit smoking and things seems quite garbled in my head...lol



Go for a nice long run


----------



## Springroll

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> Go for a nice long run



already did that!!
wish i had access to a 24 gym right now, though!


----------



## Warvstar

strongchristian said:
			
		

> Warvstar, read the first line of my original post.


haha Ok I get it now, sorry.


----------



## Warvstar

spenco said:
			
		

> I take exception to this, you are mixing up respect and courtesy.   While everyone deserves some courtesy, like you said, respect is earned and not given.


Exactly.
NOTE: Springroll I agree with the fact that the board is asking for a level of respect. That respect is something that the Admins have asked and if the users cant give it, then I dont think they should be here.


----------



## ThatsLife

> yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
> what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this! and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
> mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.



You know, i've been in your exact same position before. But the truth is; if you go into the military with a bad attitude..for instance your "They act tough online but in real life I could tear a phone book with my eye lids and kick their asses" type of attitude, you'll be in for a big surprise. I know i'm not in the military yet and hold no real ground when saying these things, but the truth is you're going to have to shape yourself up and clean up your attitude.



> there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***.



Sometimes to be strict, you have to be an ***.


----------



## big_johnson1

I agree wholeheartedly with statements made about newbies that don't use the search function, or who start their own threads on a topic when their questions weren't answered to their satisfaction, or newbies that use rank or unit insignia without earning them (pet peeve of mine).. But back to the original post, strongchristian isn't attacking any of the mods, and neither am I. From what I read in the post, the complaint is about members that attack newbies immediately and without compunction. When a question is asked, and it's a dumb question, the immediate tendancy is to jump all over the poster (funny how many newbies are criticized for just this action). 

This is a military forum, but it's not only military members, and the image of the CF is monitored here, whether or not this is a DND sanctioned site. This reminds me a lot of the old dog and pony shows that we often have to do. Military members in a public setting getting stupid questions and comments. How many times, while standing beside that ridiculous F-18 decoy, have I heard the old "wow, cutbacks are getting bad" or "does that thing fly like a kite" or "only an idiot would mistake that for a real plane, what a waste of money".. The difference is, I don't (although god I wish I could) retort back with some witty comeback, or snap at the person and say "hey stupid, look at the pictures taken from 5000' and tell me how easy it is to identify when you have half a second to pick a target". You don't have much choice, you just smile, nod, and hope to god that they go away before you go crazy.

Instead of an immediate comeback to a dumb question, or the ever annoying msn-speak (mandatory spellcheck would be nice), think about what you would say to the same question if you were out in the public, and how you would respond to it there. Others have mentioned that senior DND officials, the media, and many members of the general public often visit the forums. I don't know how true it is, but in this day of low public support for the CF, wouldn't it be better to just assume that someone is watching and remain professional?


----------



## paracowboy

Feral said:
			
		

> Instead of an immediate comeback to a dumb question, or the ever annoying msn-speak (mandatory spellcheck would be nice), think about what you would say to the same question if you were out in the public, and how you would respond to it there.


difference being that this is our house, and they are coming into it. We are not going to them, they are coming to us. Mike's house, Mike's rules, as enforced by Mike's chosen. 



> Others have mentioned that senior DND officials, the media, and many members of the general public often visit the forums. I don't know how true it is, but in this day of low public support for the CF, wouldn't it be better to just assume that someone is watching and remain professional?


 Or, we could continue to behave in the manner we have. Professional doesn't mean sycophantic to higher ranks or civilians. When the CoC is all screwed up, it's your professional duty to tell them so. If the civilians at a Dog and Pony I'm running get stupid, they get told, quite plainly, to smarten up or bugger off.


----------



## Springroll

paracowboy said:
			
		

> difference being that this is our house, and they are coming into it. We are not going to them, they are coming to us. Mike's house, Mike's rules, as enforced by Mike's chosen.



And by Mike's rules, he says to give respect to all regardless of rank or service history.


----------



## paracowboy

Springroll said:
			
		

> And by Mike's rules, he says to give respect to all regardless of rank or service history.


your disconnect with this issue was pointed out earlier in this very thread, was it not?


----------



## the 48th regulator

When will I receive some Courtesy, Respect, professionalism etc etc.

I have been coming here for about a year now.   Having served a period of my life in the military, I found this site to be very much in tune with the camaraderie I had while serving.

The only time I don't see that is when the same question is asked a million times.   We have a magic button called search.   Yet certain people choose not use it and find the easy route by having to start a thread. To me that's lazy.

When someone posts a comment, and truly truly does not think of their actions at the time when the press the send button, this irks me.   When I respond by letting them know the wrong of their ways, I get mouthed back.   I would not accept this from anyone, especially at   "Dog and Pony" show.

For all of the ninja snipers, that insist on debating whether JTF can kick team America's ass.... don't need that and thank God it gets nipped in the bud here.

People who post dumbass cutesy things in a thread, that does not contribute in any way, do you do it to rack up points for your profile and be noticed.... stop.

To people who refuse to fill in their profile, a muzzle until you do!

I enjoy this site, which belongs to Mike B, on MY time.   And if I have to extend the electronic back of the hand to someone that does not want to take the time to "respect" me, then so be it...period.

Have an opinion, fantastic, start a thread, and have at her.   If you want to buck the system, goad people into a flame war, or just plain be a thorn in peoples' side.... take it elsewhere.

That is my ideology.   As a member of this site and former miltary member.

dileas

tess


----------



## Springroll

paracowboy said:
			
		

> your disconnect with this issue was pointed out earlier in this very thread, was it not?



What do you mean?


----------



## camochick

I think sometimes people forget on here is that everyone is human (I hope hehe), moderators, military personel, civies, we all have the ability to make mistakes and most people on here learn from their mistakes and move on. I am on other forums where it's a free for all flame war and personally I don't like it. I like the fact that I can have an opinion in here and for the most part no one is going to belittle me for it. If I am wrong about something I am corrected and then I learn something new. This is a great forum and I wouldnt want it anyother way. 

   As for the respect issue, respect is earned and I personally respect Mike and his mods for the professionalism they show on here. This is a volunteer job so its not like they are getting paid and yet they still do a good job. If you see them screwing up then send Mike a PM and he will deal with it. Whining about being treated unfairly in a thread wont solve anything.   >


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote from Springroll,
_And by Mike's rules, he says to give respect to all regardless of rank or service history._

Respect?

Lets see, I think I will ask a question and then when three posters with tons of military and civilian experience give me the answer to that question I will just poo-poo in their faces and say " well, we'll see what my lawyer says about that".

MOD WARNING

Springroll, your stay here is fast approaching the expiry date....


----------



## NavComm

Feral said:
			
		

> Instead of an immediate comeback to a dumb question, or the ever annoying msn-speak (mandatory spellcheck would be nice), think about what you would say to the same question if you were out in the public, and how you would respond to it there. Others have mentioned that senior DND officials, the media, and many members of the general public often visit the forums. I don't know how true it is, but in this day of low public support for the CF, *wouldn't it be better to just assume that someone is watching and remain professional?*



I think for the most part members are patient, tolerant and professional in their responses here.

Where I see the problem is persistent newcomers who use the board to espouse their personal views (the sort of  people who like to speak just to hear themselves talk). They don't think before they post but they flood the board with irrelevant comments and diatribe usually starting off with "I think blah blah blah". They have no real experience. Perhaps they have a friends' dad's cousin's brother-in-law who used to be a sailor and they offer up opinion as fact based on that relationship.

Personally I read a lot more than I submit on these boards. Not every single thread needs my input. If it's been said already, why repeat over and over the same sentiments?

When I see a newbie who has posted 450 posts in a day or two I wonder just how many of those posts were necessary and/or relevant. Those type of persistent posters are usually more interested in reading their own posts than finding out anything about the CF or it's members.

and that ends my rant today


----------



## Springroll

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quote from Springroll,
> _And by Mike's rules, he says to give respect to all regardless of rank or service history._
> 
> Respect?
> 
> Lets see, I think I will ask a question and then when three posters with tons of military and civilian experience give me the answer to that question I will just poo-poo in their faces and say " well, we'll see what my lawyer says about that".
> 
> MOD WARNING
> 
> Springroll, your stay here is fast approaching the expiry date....



Thank you for the warning.

Here is the information on the medals from Veterans Affairs since I am unable to post it in the wearing medals thread:

Can I wear my father's (brother's, relatives') medals? 
Medals may only be worn by the veteran. It is a criminal offense to wear military medals that someone else has earned. 

and here is the link: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=help/generalfaq


----------



## the 48th regulator

Hmm sounds familiar

dileas 

tess


----------



## big_johnson1

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Or, we could continue to behave in the manner we have. Professional doesn't mean sycophantic to higher ranks or civilians. When the CoC is all screwed up, it's your professional duty to tell them so. If the civilians at a Dog and Pony I'm running get stupid, they get told, quite plainly, to smarten up or bugger off.



I'm not saying we have to be sycophantic to anyone, and I've been pulled off a dog and pony because I opened my mouth when I should have just stood there (feels like years since the last time I was threatened with jailtime).

As for dealing with the laziness of not searching, or the JTF sniper ningas, or those who want to rack up their posts, I agree. And fill out your damned profiles! Real names aren't necessary, but a little background helps credibility (I don't think anyone can argue with that). What I don't see is how the "electronic back of your hand" helps matters in any way. It usually ends up with a smartass reply, then another warning to shut up etc, then another smartass reply, etc etc until the offender is banned or sufficiently cowed. Half of those that need the slap are usually out for exactly the reason you mentioned: flame wars or just to be a pain in the neck.

Ignore them. They'll get bored and go away. I also like the suggestion of not letting newbies immediately start their own threads, maybe if they really want to start a thread, they need to PM a mod about it. Certainly might keep a lot of the stupid questions out when you get a PM back that says "Thread denied, use the search function."

And to point out again, this has nothing to do with the mods, I think they do a great job as well, and most of their work probably goes unrecognized.


----------



## NavComm

Springroll said:
			
		

> Thank you for the warning.
> 
> Here is the information on the medals from Veterans Affairs since I am unable to post it in the wearing medals thread:
> 
> Can I wear my father's (brother's, relatives') medals?
> Medals may only be worn by the veteran. It is a criminal offense to wear military medals that someone else has earned.
> 
> and here is the link: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=help/generalfaq



You illustrate my previous point exactly. How is it that you have something to say to almost every single discussion on this board? If you are unable to post on a thread it's probably because everything that needs to be said on that topic has been said. Your input is only important to you.

Either you are incredibly self-involved or just plain stunned. Now I'm sure you're going to think that is rude and disrespectful....and this time....you'd be correct.


----------



## Island Ryhno

This is getting ridiculous, just troll some hot threads, see the people who have been banned, look at their profiles and tell me who you think the real problem is here. The mods and senior members or the "others"?


----------



## aesop081

and with that, i beleive that this thread, like the medals one i just finnished reading, has reached it's "time expired" point


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Rhyno is right, *Monty Python voice* " Allright, stop stop, this is getting silly. I didn't mind the......"

If anyone wishes to comment on the original intent of this thread[ if one can remember] by all means please save it from itself.
Thanks


----------



## canadianblue

I'll just try to make a last comment here, I read over the thread and can't believe that some people have a problem with this site because of the directing staff. I've been here for quite some time now and haven't had a problem with how this site is run. It's a great site, with great people, and great information. If you get upset because a member tells you to use the search forum and decide to cry about, well boohoo. It's happened to me before and I didn't throw a hissy fit. This is a great site, and it's run similar to what the military is like which is great. 

Great job to the admins and Mike Bobbit.


----------



## Warvstar

Springroll said:
			
		

> And by Mike's rules, he says to give respect to all regardless of rank or service history.


He says with the exception of Newbs not using the search button. Read it again.
EDIT: Sorry Mods, I guess I missed the post that was saying this thread reached its expiry, I always read from page 1 and on, I guess I should start reading all the last posts then make a comment on the past posts.


----------



## Manimal

i never said i was tough or that i wanted to use violence to solve the problems i have here...


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Manimal said:
			
		

> i never said i was tough or that i wanted to use violence to solve the problems i have here...



It was implied by your posts though. This is why we want you folks to realize that you are _responsible_ for what you post here....


----------



## bossi

strongchristian said:
			
		

> ... I don't think it's necessary to manage the site this way. Say a newbie makes XYZ claim, everyone can see from his experience in his personal information what it's based on, and they can take it for what its worth. Just like real life. Anyone is free to jump on him with their reasoning, or even laugh at his ridiculous and unsubstantiated claim. That's free speech. But if we go past this and block his right to say something, even if he is not the brightest bulb, then it is not free speech anymore. ...



Just like real life, if somebody said "It's fun to jump off a cliff" ... would you?
In real life, some impressionable people do.

Thus, just like in real life, it's sometimes necessary to say "Shut up.  Sit down.  Listen and learn." -  in the interest of brevity, both in real life and here - due to ADD, or impending death this can take many shapes and forms (e.g. "LOOK OUT!" ... or ... "DUCK!" ... or ... "GET DOWN!" ... you get my drift?)

In real life, sometimes "free speech" results in Darwinian selection (e.g. "Gee - that sounds like incoming - I think I'll stand up in the open and have a look ...")

As also pointed out, almost everybody who posts here is human - thus, mistakes will be made.


----------



## strongchristian

touché! yes, people do jump off cliffs even now, sad as it is.

As for me, I found out yesterday I did good on my CFAT but I'm getting an enhanced reliability check because I've spent too much time abroad.  I won't tell you how long its supposed to take.   Oh well, peace out...


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

I think the biggest issue here with people making unsupported claims, and providing info with the impression that they have experience with the topic (often they dont) is that, a lot of people DO look at this site as an official DND website, whether it really is or not. With that said, a "Newbie" isnt going to know who is and who isnt speaking from accurate experience and concrete information. The mods jobs are to keep such things in check, so the only info being provided and passed around is accurate, or at least sorted out.

Secondly, as was said before. Militaryphotos.com, need i say more?

Thirdly, the mods are human as are the rest of us. Some of these guys have been kicking around here since hydro was invented, so suffice to say their patience well has run a little shallow for those who post in here like its some Gaming Forum.

Even EA Games forums employs the Search Function ffs...


----------



## Manimal

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> It was implied by your posts though. This is why we want you folks to realize that you are _responsible_ for what you post here....



i never implied that i wanted to use violence. i reread what i wrote to make sure...
what i did say is that i'd like to see that attitude stand up in the real world.


----------



## Old Ranger

Wow! This thread should be required reading!

It is refreshing to see the Staff here do such an excellent job.
I've even learned to bite my tongue alittle, reading other threads.

Thanks for a Great Website!


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Manimal said:
			
		

> i never implied that i wanted to use violence. i reread what i wrote to make sure...
> what i did say is that i'd like to see that attitude stand up in the real world.



My point still stands....you acted like a tough guy on here and got called on it.



> yeah, i've been belittled by the staff too. called a kid, told to shut my trap, both in PM and on the board.
> what gets me, these guys wouldn't talk to me on the street like this!



If you were talking out of your anus in person or on here I would challenge you on it, from your post you imply that no one would _dare_ speak to you in that manner, which implies you would resort to violence.



> and part of me wonders why they act so tuff on here?
> mind you, others are professional, and to the point. there is a difference between being strict, and being an ***. some of the 'staff' give this place a bad name.


You can bet if Mike felt any of the Mods gave this forum a bad name like you imply some do, we would not be here.


----------



## Burrows

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> You can bet if Mike felt any of the Mods gave this forum a bad name like you imply some do, we would not be here.


 It has been said time and time again,  if you have any problem at all with any moderator actions then you should contact Mike Bobbitt via PM and state why.  If the reason is valid we would recieve a reprimand.

Manimal,

Even if you don't mean to sound like like you want to cause violence it comes accross as it.  Remember,  impact over intent.

As bossi poointed out everyone is human and makes mistakes, moderators included. 

Its not "lets pick on the new guys." it is "lets do what we are here to do.".  People with spotless records and a long time on the site and in the forces have been given verbals for lapses.  We don't let things slip.  This goes for everyone on the board.


----------



## Manimal

alright, didn't see/remember typing, 'talking to me on the street like that' i meant that in a talk to anyone like that. i don't feel that these people would speak to me, or anyone with attitude like some of them have given. so sorry for coming off like a dick! it wasn't intended

BUT!

when i talk to people, i give respect and i expect it back. but like many have said, here and in the CF you have to earn respect! well, i can respect that. and it should go both ways. directing staff are where they are for a reason, so respect should be given. and as pointed out, if they are out of line, take it up with Mike. taking it from your point of view, i'm just some wannabe, and may or may not carry through with anything, and with so many members, i bet there is a lot of shit that gets posted. so instead of whine and bitch about 'he hurt my feelings' either forget it, deal with it, or forget it. after all i'm here to learn, and i appreciate what help i've gotten. i guess i either prove myself, or not let it matter!
thanks for the revelation!


----------



## Roy Harding

Manimal said:
			
		

> ...  i don't feel that these people would speak to me, or anyone with attitude like some of them have given. ...



Manimal:

Not to exacerbate the situation, or to ignore the remainder of your post.  But DON'T count on not being challenged in person in EXACTLY the way you've been challenged here, by some of the posters - should YOU show the attitude you had in some of your past posts.

Professional soldiers are, for the most part, "straight talkers" - whether on the internet, or in person.

And no, this is not a challenge - just something for you to chew on.


----------



## Slim

Alright, enough is enough.

Manimal, Springroll, Strongchristian

This has been debated before, over and over again, by every barrack room lawyer who comes down the pipe and gets in a snit cause the rest of the world doesn't fall all over themselves to agree with them

This thread is being locked, now, by me.

If you have a problem with that you can
A: PM me and we'll talk about it
B: Suck it up and soldier on
C: Stop posting.

Those are pretty much your options.

Later.......

I have been asked by a number of others to re-open this thread, so I'm going to. 

Manimal, Springroll, Strongchristian...Tow the line. Patience is wearing rather thin around the command post as far as nonesense goes.

Slim
STAFF


----------



## McG

Springroll said:
			
		

> I know this is a private owned forum, but you have to take responsibility for those that you have join and how they treat the other members on here, regardless of CF experience or not.


I'm not certain who "you" refers to in this quote.   Is it the site staff or the members themselves?   Regardless, the site guidelines clearly tell members that they are responsible for their own actions:   





> You are responsible for everything that you post and the tone in which it is posted.


(This one line para may be my favorite part of the guidelines)

On the topic of swift wrath against those presenting bad facts:


> *You will not post any information that is* offensive, defamatory, *inaccurate*, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.



On appearing professional at all times:


> First and foremost, we're all representatives of the CF. We may not want to be, but ultimately, we don't have the luxury of choice. The truth is when you post a message even on an unofficial site like this, your comments reflect upon the CF. That's not to say we can't bemoan the current state of affairs - it's a soldier's age old right to complain. But let's keep it clean and dignified.


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## sigpig

Manimal said:
			
		

> so-sweeping-the-issue-under-the-rug?
> what's-going-on?



Manimal, there is no issue to sweep under the rug. The moderators and senior members of this board have stated their position that they believe their policies are good and make this board better than others out there.

If you don't like it, too bad. Like so much else in life there is nothing you can do about it.

Note that I am not agreeing with their policies, just acknowledging them. I myself have stated I feel mods (and senior members) are too quick to lock threads and slam posters needlessly for starting threads that may have been covered elsewhere. And I have received the same feedback you did. Nothing will change as this is how 'they' want it. So stop beating yourself up about it and move on to different boards if you must.

I myself have become mostly a browser, trying to keep up a little on the military after I left it and Canada about seven years ago. I don't bother posting to anything potentially controversial as I know the reaction I will get. It's easier this way. I belong to other boards where I can say what I want without dealing with overzealous 'board police.' One of them is christianforums.com - and I'm an atheist    I feel more welcome there.

Anyway, enough of this drivel, I'm sure I'll get a nastygram for it. Just chill out guys and move on. It will be better for everyone involved.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Folks I know I am getting tired of saying it, I know the other Mods are and I am sure you are as well. If you have a problem with the way things are done at this site IM Mike Bobbitt and give examples. 

SigPig so I guess you all for zero moderation then and by the sounds of your post you would prefer no rules or Guidelines to be followed. Well I got news for you, we will continue to Moderate this site according to the wishes of Mike Bobbitt and the majority of posters. 

For those that agree that we should not have moderation or Guidelines then again militaryphotos.net is the place for you.


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## sigpig

[quote author=Ex-Dragoon]
Folks I know I am getting tired of saying it, I know the other Mods are and I am sure you are as well. If you have a problem with the way things are done at this site IM Mike Bobbitt and give examples.[/quote]

I don't worry about it enough to do that. Besides from what I have read of his posts expressing his support for the way the moderators operate I have no doubt that my opinion is in variance with his, and him being the owner - wins. I have no problem with that. 

[quote author=Ex-Dragoon]SigPig so I guess you all for zero moderation then and by the sounds of your post you would prefer no rules or Guidelines to be followed.[/quote]

I don't recall proposing zero moderation, just a less heavy handed approach than goes on here. I've seen enough people express the same thought to know that I'm not being crazy here. Other people have come here with different internet experiences, seen what goes on here - and said what's hapenning? Threads locked daily, verbal warnings, don't post without checking to see if it's been done before. 

[quote author=Ex-Dragoon]Well I got news for you, we will continue to Moderate this site according to the wishes of Mike Bobbitt and the majority of posters.[/quote]

That's not news, I wouldn't expect anything different. I just got tired of seeing the others get slammed for expressing views that I agree with so I piped up. I didn't expect anything to change, just wanted to let the others know they weren't alone in their views. Now that we agree everyone is tired of the same thing lets close the thread, not much more positive can develop.

Maybe on the sign up page a paragraph can be made, that has to be acknowledged, explaining that this board is policed more stringently than many internet sites. If newcomers know what to expect they may not be surprised by what goes on, or may realize this is not the site for them and save everyone some bother.


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## Ex-Dragoon

> Maybe on the sign up page a paragraph can be made, that has to be acknowledged, explaining that this board is policed more stringently than many internet sites



Now that is a real good suggestion. Thank you.


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## paracowboy

speaking of other internet sites, this is one of the "least-moderated" sites I belong to. I post on USParatroopers.org, SOCNET, ArmyRanger.com, among others, and the silliness that is tolerated here would NEVER be on any of those.


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## Springroll

paracowboy said:
			
		

> speaking of other internet sites, this is one of the "least-moderated" sites I belong to. I post on USParatroopers.org, SOCNET, ArmyRanger.com, among others, and the silliness that is tolerated here would NEVER be on any of those.



The other ones I am on are barely moderated(only when absolutely necessary)...but then again they do not have a huge amount of people to worry about like this forum. One of them has 40 members with only about 20 of us as regular posters and the other has a huge amount of people(1400) but only about 15 or 20 regular posters there too.

I figure that is why I was having problems when I first started here. I was not used to it.


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## LF(CMO)

sigpig said:
			
		

> Manimal, there is no issue to sweep under the rug. The moderators and senior members of this board have stated their position that they believe their policies are good and make this board better than others out there.
> 
> If you don't like it, too bad. Like so much else in life there is nothing you can do about it.
> 
> Note that I am not agreeing with their policies, just acknowledging them. I myself have stated I feel mods (and senior members) are too quick to lock threads and slam posters needlessly for starting threads that may have been covered elsewhere. And I have received the same feedback you did. Nothing will change as this is how 'they' want it. So stop beating yourself up about it and move on to different boards if you must.
> 
> I myself have become mostly a browser, trying to keep up a little on the military after I left it and Canada about seven years ago. I don't bother posting to anything potentially controversial as I know the reaction I will get. It's easier this way. I belong to other boards where I can say what I want without dealing with overzealous 'board police.' One of them is christianforums.com - and I'm an atheist      I feel more welcome there.
> 
> Anyway, enough of this drivel, I'm sure I'll get a nastygram for it. Just chill out guys and move on. It will be better for everyone involved.



 Yea, Sig you've pretty well expessed my sentiments exactly.  I've come to the same conclusion.  That's the way it is; just accept it or stay away!


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## Fishbone Jones

The site is moderated the way it is because it was an absolute free for all when it started. It would have never have survived to this day to become the premier site for Canadian Military information that it has. Guidelines have been constantly modified added to and removed as the board evolves, Springroll mentions a board she visits with a HUGE amount of members, totaling 1400. This board has a membership approaching 8000, plus a large amount of visitors. The vast majority of members here have little or no problem with the way the board is policed, but there's always a few that don't think rules apply to them. The same will be found in any organization, live or internet. To paraphrase Mr Spock " The good of the many outweigh the needs of the few." The reasons for the way we moderate have been stated, again. If you want to post to a locked thread, do a PM with the reason why and we'll see. Got a complaint? Try reslove it outside the forums. Just like the military, you can take it up the chain, one step at a time, to Mr Bobbit, the ultimate authority.

Finally and most simply, this house belongs to Mr Bobbit. His house, his rules. If you don't like the party, there's always another one down the road. We would no more allow rude and ill mannered children to run amok in this house, than your grandmother would allow in hers.


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## Michael OLeary

sigpig said:
			
		

> Nothing will change as this is how 'they' want it.



Hmmm, sounds kind of like joining a Mess in the military, doesn't it?  Each "new" generation wants to push the envelope because they perceive the 'old guard' to be upholding antiquated traditions that don't fit their personal tastes in music, dress or decorum. And eventually the ones that stick around become the old guard themselves, equally frustrated by the persistent challenges of the next generation.


And while I can understand the difficulty some people have adjusting to a well-moderated board with (perhaps) a fairly narrow arc of fire, perhaps one of the detractors could explain:

Why should those who refuse to use the search function (a deeply entrenched internet feature wherever you go) be spoon-fed information which has already been covered in detail and, often, linked from the FAQs?

Why shouldn't those who expose clearly erroneous information or opinions be shut down quickly, so that their posts aren't mistaken for truth by even less experienced posters or lurkers? Also, why should anyone be expected to entertain a "polite" and futile debate just to try and avoid hurting their feelings? 

If the content and context of the board is in concert with attitudes and experiences in the Canadian Army, why shouldn't those who want to drag it outside the issued parameters be asked to post elsewhere?

If a poster doesn't wish to work within the stated Conduct Guidelines, why shouldn't they be given an opportunity to re-consider their approach and why they want to participate on Army.ca through the graduated warning system, even if their persistence may result in a permanent ban?

Lastly, why do so many people fail to understand that the best way to exercise "free speech" on the internet is to pay for their own web space and not try to subvert that paid for by someone else?


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## Manimal

my only problem is, that i posted a public applogy for my attitude, and thanked the other mods, (ex-dragoon, Danjanou, muskrat89,recceguy and   Michael O'Leary   ) and other members like Gunnar (among others) who showed me my error, and corrected me using respect and Patience.
if you read this thread from beginning to end, you'll note that at the start i was a dick! and said things like the DS gave this site a bad name. i was talking about 2 experience i had that reflected poorly on this site. but since then, and in this thread, the Ds have been respectful, helpful, and clearly stated my error. my posts before were deleted, and when asked why they were deleted, that post was also deleted. one of the DS sent me a link asking me to report it higher up. not wanting to cause trouble i posted again. (about things being swept under the rug) of course, only the DS that deleted that post, and the three before (the apology, and question of the deleted posts) would understand what i was talking about.

the fact that in this thread i started out with the wrong attitude towards how this site is run, and then having DS telling me why i was wrong, and in their posts proving my statement wrong (that DS's were bringing the site down etc,) by being respectful, concise and to the point. that it's only fair that my post giving credit to them be left on.

i find it disrespectful that one DS would take the post down, when i'm giving credit to the others that are participated in this thread, for the polite professionalism, patience, and to their job well done. if my posts are going to be deleted, at least take away the rude, a** h*** posts i made. not the ones were i'm taking back my statements against the site. this post is giving recognition to the hard work of the mods, it should stand to show that they are doing their jobs to the utmost.





Edited for improper language.
Slim
STAFF


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## McG

Missing posts - the answer here:   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33535.0.html

Any more examination of that issue can go to that thread.


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## Manimal

thank you


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## camochick

Holy crap people, if you don't like it then leave. All I am hearing here is whining. Every six months or so someone posts a thread about how unfair things are here, heck i even thought things were unfair when i was a newbie, and then i realized that I like this site the way it is because it's not some silly flame war. If you have problems, pm Mike, he has answered questions for me in the past and he is great about getting back to you and explaining things. If all you are going to do is whine about unfair treatment you have the option of just not returning. It's simple, very simple. It's a forum, on the internet, if your posts are being deleted it's not the end of the world. Blarghhh, I can't believe this thread is still going hehe >


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## HollywoodHitman

I actually think all of this is a little entertaining. Although I'll admit to it getting a little annoying after awhile. I don't really have any issues whatsoever with the Moderation of this site. I think the biggest point to be made is that if you're going to disagree or offer an opinion on a post or an issue, back it up or at least present your case with some eloquence. 

 :threat:

My $.02

TM


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## sigpig

[quote author=camochick]
Holy crap people, if you don't like it then leave. All I am hearing here is whining.[/quote]

My most humble apologies for making you read my whining posts.

[quote author=camochick]Every six months or so someone posts a thread about how unfair things are here,[/quote]

If it's a recurring theme, maybe there is something to it. Because my, and a few others, opinion is in the minority doesn't mean it is wrong. It just means it is not in agreement with the majority at the moment. Sort of like voting NDP in Alberta.

I don't believe I am doing anything to hurt the site by expressing my opinion on this matter, and I will continue to do so.


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## Ex-Dragoon

> I don't believe I am doing anything to hurt the site by expressing my opinion on this matter, and I will continue to do so.



Perfectly fine to do so, _as long _ as you remember this is a private site  and you follow the Forum Guidelines.


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## muskrat89

> I don't believe I am doing anything to hurt the site by expressing my opinion on this matter



Kinda like camochick's opinion, about your opinion...


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## paracowboy

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> Kinda like camochick's opinion, about your opinion...


or my opinion about camochick's opinion about your opinion. Or muskrat89's opinion about my opinion about camochick's opinion about your opinion.


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## Infanteer

What the fuck, over?


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## the 48th regulator

> What the fuck, over?




the effing P.C, posting Barbarians, have invaded brother...

They want us to be "nice when the make a badd booboo",

dileas

tess


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## Infanteer

Well, the ramp is opened now, I'm the JM, and I'm winding up the boot.  Others can decide when to fire the green light - I hope they remembered to pack their chutes....


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## Slim

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Well, the ramp is opened now, I'm the JM, and I'm winding up the boot.   Others can decide when to fire the green light - I hope they remembered to pack their chutes....



I can't quite figure out whether it was Black Hawk down or Apocolyps Now that you were watching when you made that post... ;D

Sentiment is about right though. >


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## Manimal

ok, i understand even more! 
reading the thread on Personal Items Required by Recruits, 4 pages, all the questions that need to be asked are on page one, with the answers. they are repeated on page two, and then on page four, someone asks again about the picture frame, and then someone asks again about the electric razor. of course, someone else answers each questions, and under that answer, someone else answers.

i always wonder what the "STOP, A NEW POST HAS BEEN ADDED SINCE YOU STARTED YOUR POST, PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING" message was about after you submit a post. 

DS's have a crappy job, but someones got to do it.
thanks guys


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## Fishbone Jones

....and with that, I think more than enough reasoning has been given for what we do and why we do it. If there is something concrete and reasonable to add, PM it to a Mod for inclusion. Ramp closed.


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