# Canadian Soldiers dead



## Pikache (18 Apr 2002)

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/17/cdndeaths020417 

Oh dear God...

RIP


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## stevet (18 Apr 2002)

A sad day for the men and women of our Armed Forces. My heart goes out to the families and the soldiers of the PPCLI battle group. RIP.


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## Pikache (18 Apr 2002)

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack0204/18_cdntroops-cp.html 

Another article...


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## Harry (18 Apr 2002)

From CNN

‘Friendly fire‘ incident kills 4 Canadian soldiers
April 18, 2002 Posted: 1:09 AM EDT (0509 GMT)

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CNN) -- Four Canadian soldiers were killed and eight wounded near Kandahar on Thursday when a U.S. F-16 dropped at least one 500-pound laser-guided bomb on them during a training mission, according to U.S. and Canadian military officials. 

The "friendly fire" incident happened at about 1:55 a.m. in Afghanistan, the officials said. 

Two of the injured Canadian soldiers sustained life-threatening injuries, one was listed with very serious injuries and five with serious injuries, according to a statement from the Canadian Defense Ministry. 

Planning for the evacuation of the dead and wounded is under way, the statement said. 

"I‘d like to convey to the families and friends of the injured and dead soldiers our condolences and prayers," said Maj. Bryan Hilferty, U.S. Army spokesman at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan. 

The U.S. and Canadian soldiers were conducting a live-fire training exercise in an area about nine miles (14 kilometers) south of the Kandahar airfield, the Canadian statement said. 

The Canadian soldiers, part of the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group, have been in Afghanistan since late January as part of Operation Apollo, Canada‘s military commitment to the campaign against terrorism, according to the Canadian Defense Ministry.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Apr 2002)

As bad as I feel for the families of those Patricias, you gotta feel pretty bad for the poor pilot who was involved, too.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb]As bad as I feel for the families of those Patricias, you gotta feel pretty bad for the poor pilot who was involved, too.[/qb]


I see CBC has called it an F-18.


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## Harry (18 Apr 2002)

> I see CBC has called it an F-18.


Never fear brother, the pen is mightier than the sword, just woke an acquaintance in TO with the CBC and chewed a strip off.

Peter Mansbridge was too busy making assumptions during the CDS presentation and inadvertently started referring to the bird as an 18.  The good ole Communist Broadcasting Corp, followed his lead, as he is the EXPERT, and went with his dissertation.

Being changed, but knowing them, in the AM.

Lest We Forget


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## Infanteer (18 Apr 2002)

A sad but powerful reminder of what we are here to do.  I hope Canadians can reflect on this as the ultimate cost of our freedoms.

Rest in Peace, Brothers....


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## enfield (18 Apr 2002)

CBC was originally saying an F-18, but has changed it to F-16. Doesn‘t really matter.
4 soldier dead, 2 more critically injured, and  number more with less serious injuries.

My heartfelt condolences to their families and their comrades. My heart also goes out to the pilot.

May they Rest In Peace.


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## cagomez (18 Apr 2002)

Sad day in deed, for all those involved.......


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## Pikache (18 Apr 2002)

Two more updated articles

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1936000/1936589.stm 

 http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack0204/18_cdntroops-cp.html


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## Korus (18 Apr 2002)

I was flipping channels last night, when I came across the CNN Breaking News broadcast about it. I was very shocked.. 

May those who have died rest in peace, and I wish luck to the injured, and hope they get better soon.


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## corporal (18 Apr 2002)

not to sling arrows as such,but the impression over the 
y
ears is that when it comes to friendly  fire deaths the americans have a dismal record 
you have to wonder with all the steps taken to avert such a situation, that the pilots must have been flying awfully low to be worried about small arms fire.
And you have to wonder knowing our governments record of concern for our troopswether they will stand up or just accept whatever explanation is given to them by nthe usa


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## peanutshel (18 Apr 2002)

The media has released the soldier‘s names.  They are Sgt Mark Leger, Cpl Ainsworth Dyer, Pte Richard Green and Pte Nathan Smith.  Injured were Sgt Lorne Ford, Cpl Rene Paquette, MCpl Curtis Hollister, Cpl Brett Parry, Pte Norman Link, Cpl Shane Brennan, MCpl Stanley Clark and Cpl Brian Decare.


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## Jungle (18 Apr 2002)

My condolences to the families and friends of these men, and good luck to the injured. May these be the only ones...


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## Marauder (18 Apr 2002)

Lest We Forget


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## bc_railfan (18 Apr 2002)

yes, exactly corporal!!

here we are, sending the few troops we have overseas to fight a battle that is not even our own.  it‘s an american war, what do we owe them??

if i was Chretien, i‘d be saying to Bush and his troops, "look, you guys are a bunch of yahoos, we‘re pulling our guys out of there, it‘s your battle!"

and yeah, corporal, canada will just mimick the findings of the u.s. investigation.  can you really see us saying, "you guys screwed up, and we‘re outta here."...you‘re on your own"  unlikely.  and if we did, the U.S. would probably hit us with some more exponentially high tariff rates, or some childish b.s. like that.  what a joke man.

canada could never conduct a completely objective investigation because the command of the soldiers overseas is so intertwined between canada and the u.s

*we shouldn‘t be there in the first place*


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## Paul Gagnon (18 Apr 2002)

My heart goes out to the the friends and families of the killed and wounded soldiers and to the soldiers of 3 PPCLI.


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Apr 2002)

My thoughts and prayers go out all of the "pats" both here on the war diary and those here in Canada and in Afgahnistan.

".... at the going down of the sun and in the morning, we shal remember then."

Chimo!


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## stevet (19 Apr 2002)

Chet, where should I begin?

First - I fear that your suggestion that this a battle "that is not even our own. It‘s an american war, what do we owe them??" is incorrect. We offered our assistance to our ally in rooting out the source of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on their soil which, I might add, did kill a number of Canadians as well (or have you forgotten that fact already). We should be there with our Allies and thank God and the men and women of our Armed Forces, we are there, making a useful contribution.

Second - Unfortunately, due to the years of mismangagement and neglect by our governments in equipping our forces, we cannot tell "Bush and his troops - we‘re pulling our guys out of there, it‘s your battle". We rely on the US to get us and our equipment there and back. Unfortunate but true.

Third - It is your opinion that "we shouldn‘t be there in the first place" and you are entitled to it. I just happen to think you are wrong. We should be there and I, as a civilian, am proud of the fact that we are there and we are participating in this fight.

Fourth - It may seem like the US has a number of friendly fire incidents and we should look at the reason this happened so we can make sure it doesn‘t happen again. However, a knee-jerk reaction like what your are suggesting is not the answer (remember the Airborne disbandment!). The men and women of 3 PPCLI Battle Group are there for a reason, they are doing a great job and we should let them finish it. Period.

Now, I am usually content to lurk around this board and make an occasional post. However, your post struck me as untimely and ill-informed. If this response seems critical then I am sorry... No, wait a minute. I am being too Canadian right now. Here, lets try this...

Chet, seeing how you are from Vancouver, why don‘t you go back to your coffee house, order a latte, have a seat with your university chums and discuss philosophy and leave us under-educated Canadians alone.

For everyone else, lets keep our eye on the ball. 4 Canadians died yesterday serving their country and 8 were injured. There will be plenty of time in the future to point fingers and wax poetic about who did what and when. Now we should focus on making sure that they are remembered with the respect and dignity they deserve.

  Lest We Forget


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Apr 2002)

What ****ing difference does it make who dropped the bomb?  I would be willing to bet my life that the pilot of that plane didn‘t do it on purpose.  The Americans have more casualties in training because they train hard, and they lose more men than other nations because they have more men to begin with.  Fratricide has been happening since wars began and it is not repeat not an "American" problem.

A fellow my dad grew up with in Canora Saskatchewan was killed with PPCLI in Korea in May 1953 - by another Canadian with a Bren Gun.  Look up Henry Althouse at the virtual war memorial to see his picture.

I bet the armchair warriors here wouldn‘t be shooting off their mouths if they were in the same room as a US Air Force pilot.  I think we ought to be thankful that the USAF got us through the Cold War safe and sound, and give thanks nightly to whatever God you believe in that the Yanks are on our side.  We could not have won WW II without them, and we pretty much owe our sovereignty today to them - both because they lost the desire to annex us, and because they helped protected ourselves from the Soviets/Warsaw Pact for fifty years.


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## Harry (19 Apr 2002)

Wow, I wish I lived in a world were we could sit back and armchair quarter back the world, like some of you individuals.  Canada is an active participant in this operation like it or not.   There are lots of posts WRT slamming the government, I donâ€™t think this is the one for that.

But savor this for a minute, we lost Canadians on 9/11, we also have suspected and alleged terrorists using Canada as a stepping off point for their activities.  Why are we there, supporting our ally(ies) and ensuring that our commitment to freedom is demonstrated by our participation.

It would seem that there is some derision WRT the US and any subsequent after action report on this incident.  If we could only catch up with the US, we would have a REAL Lessons Learned Centre, not in name alone.

The US takes every incident and investigates it, much as we do with our Boards of Inquiry.  They however take it one step higher, by ensuring that the LLC follows up on the recommendations and ensures that change, education and checks occur.  Unlike many of our BOIâ€™s that are admin shuffles and CYA for the most part.

We can chew the rag in this forum, and we do it good, but most of us base our comments upon hard-earned experience.

UBIQUE

Lest We Forget


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## Infanteer (19 Apr 2002)

Hooah Harry...

A buddy of mine who went on ROTO 6 with 3rd VP is very pissed right now, cause he knows a couple of the dead.  Plus, one of the dead is supposedly an ex-Westie; their were a sh*tload of media down at the armouries tonight, trying to get a story.
However, I ain‘t going to pin the blame on anyone.  The only thing I‘ll say is, the F-16 flys too high and too fast to be used in air-to-mud missions.

All I hope to see out of this is that both the Canadian Public and the Liberal government has the cojones to see the War on Terrorism through to the end, so that we know that the death of these troopers is not in vain.


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## Donjk (19 Apr 2002)

There are some questions need answering about the USAF F16 bombing Canadians in Afghanistan...
Like any soldier the pilot has the right to open fire to defend himself, but he must have been flying too high to see the reflective identifying tape on their helmets (unless the PPCLI were all inside APC‘s and all that showed was MG fire). Assuming he was high, he was likely too high to receive small arms fire. I have observed 500 pound bombs being dropped on a range and a pilot must release his bomb well back of the target, certainly well back of ground fire range. That means that when he flew over the range to "mark" the area he would have deliberately have had to circle around to approach on a bombing run. Once his marking was done and he was well out of range, why did he choose to come back into his perceived danger area simply to engage "the enemy"?  When he had been given no orders nor permission to do so?
My sincerest sympathies to all members of 3PPCLI and the families of the casualties and I‘m sure I speak here for all my fellow Hasty P‘s.  
donjk


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## JRMACDONALD (19 Apr 2002)

why did he choose to come back into his perceived danger area simply to engage "the enemy"?  because HE thought hewas doing the right thing!!??
 it was a screw up- this **** happens!! ( ALllies /Normandy/ 1944-op goodwood -anyone remember that!?)


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## Harry (19 Apr 2002)

The Apple and Orange principle, take a pilot with some of the most sophisticated sensors in the world and ordinance to boot.  Have that pilot fly around in a mostly Free Flight envelope (AKA-if it moves blast it) at night.

Now we start evolving the mission, the intensity for the ground elements are tapering off; the target rich environment for the air jocks is dwindling.  Ground troops start to conduct training exâ€™s to stay on top of their B Game, and it is being done at night.

This jock gets an Int Rep before his mission of possible En activity all over the country, goes into the dark nether.  Picks up ground activity, interrogates it with his sensors.  Everything he has dealt with to date has been bad guys, put into perspective that he is flying at night relying on electronic interception and ID of a target.

He gets a big juicy one, calls it in, the target is about 14 klicks out from the main camp, movement, fire, threat.  The adrenaline is pumping.  He starts maneuvering, pulling Gâ€™s, dizzy, and tunnel vision, must, must, must.

Too be continued in the form of an after action report.

Sorry, this is one I will wait for the hard cold facts instead of quarter backing. 

Lets keep our eye on the ball folks


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## cagomez (19 Apr 2002)

Op Goodwood. In France our troops ( a lot of them )got plastered by friendly heavy bombers that were suppose to be supporting the advance. They bombed short.

My sincere condolences to those who have lost loved ones in any and all military operations. May it never be in vain


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## Infanteer (19 Apr 2002)

Correction on the last.

One of the wounded soldiers, MCpl Stanley Clark, was an ex-Westie.  God Speed on his and the others recovery.


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## Anderson56 (20 Apr 2002)

SteveT pretty much hit it, I think.

There are lots of unanswered questions about this incident, which have to be answered.  But I have already grown tired of talk about cowboys and american failings.

That pilot was a professional, just like those on the ground, and if you think for a minute that he wasn‘t trying to do the right thing in this case you are wrong.

Moreover, I can grant that he may not have ultimately performed well.  But even if that is the case, what of the other safeguards that are supposed to be in place.  Why didn‘t he know that this was restricted airspace.  When he called in his report, is there some reason that the AWACS didn‘t advise him of this fact or offer a caution.

Why didn‘t his controller know what was going on.

Something awful like this rarely results from a single error.  It‘s usually a bunch of them, compounded over and over.  

How about we wait for the investigation before we start drawing conclusions? [/LIST]


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## portcullisguy (20 Apr 2002)

Just found out that one of the fallen had joined the CF in 1998... his first regiment was the 48th Highlanders!  My regiment has lost one of it‘s own, sadly.

Sun Media reported that Cpl Ainsworth Dyer grew up in Toronto, attended Eastdale Collegiate, and joined the 48th Highlanders before heading to Edmonton to join the Pats.


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## Jungle (20 Apr 2002)

Excellent point, let‘s remember what Mr Roosevelt once said:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." 
THEODORE ROOSEVELT
(Paris Sorbonne,1910)

If you have not been around to know the feeling of fear (that of death) do not judge those who were. Some people on this board act exactly like the media.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by JRMACDONALD:
> [qb]why did he choose to come back into his perceived danger area simply to engage "the enemy"?  because HE thought hewas doing the right thing!!??
> it was a screw up- this **** happens!! ( ALllies /Normandy/ 1944-op goodwood -anyone remember that!?)[/qb]


I believe that was a mistaken carpet bombing by Allied planes of Third Canadian Division headquarters, some infantry units and part of a Polish division.  Several hundred casualties as a result, including the only Canadian general officer casualty of WW II due to hostile fire (General Salmon was killed in a plane crash so he doesn‘t count) - General RFL Keller, GOC 3 Cdn Div.

The investigation in that one did what it was supposed to, but they didn‘t have the internet aroudn for armchair generals to replay that one nightly on the web.


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## the patriot (20 Apr 2002)

My sincerest condolences to the friends and families of the paratroopers that passed away.  It‘s sad that they will never get the chance to have one last "jab" before descending on a DZ.

-the patriot-


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## Recce41 (20 Apr 2002)

To fellow Paras may St Micheal take care of you!
Fair Winds, Soft Landings
Sgt J.     CD,CDS com   ( Airborne)


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## bc_railfan (21 Apr 2002)

i apologize if my comments upset anybody here.  this is one man‘s opinion, and i shouldn‘t be flamed because of it.  i have a great sense of Canadian pride, and perhaps i am jaded by American actions lately.

Steve T, you dont know me, so please dont make assumptions about me or anyone else.  i dont sip lattes in a Vancouver coffee shop or discuss philosophy with my university friends.

i am a high school student with enough balls to even post my opinions on a public board.  perhaps they somewhat poorly timed, but not ill-informed.

e-mail me if you have anything else to say about me... bush_x_ca@hotmail.com


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## Michael Dorosh (21 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by chet:
> [qb]I am a high school student with enough balls to even post my opinions on a public board.  perhaps they somewhat poorly timed, but not ill-informed.</a>[/qb]


You may have the basic facts correct, but you don‘t have the experience or knowledge to understand them or interpret them, IMHO.  Bashing our closest allies is not ballsy, it‘s gutless, especially with no sources to back up your claims.

If you want to present a reasoned argument as to the incidence of fratricide incidents occurring during US operations, as opposed to other operations today or in the past, do so now.


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## Infanteer (21 Apr 2002)

Chet, since you are in high-school and your knowledge of the real world is about equal to jack-s**t, please don‘t come in here trying to have pissing matches with people.
There are some troopers around this board who have served in the army longer than you have been on this earth and have first-hand knowledge with many aspects of defence policy, the Americans, and the military in general.  So show a little tact and get the lay of the land before you whip your wiener out.


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## Harry (21 Apr 2002)

To repeat a quote I posted elsewhere Chet.

â€œIf you want to run with the big dogs, donâ€™t be surprised if you catch some fleasâ€.     

Fresh blood like yours is good on this board, but always keep in the back of the memory banks that some of us arenâ€™t as thick skinned as others.  In some cases some of us probably have more time accumulated on coffee break than others have in reality.      

Donâ€™t get mad, this is a sensitive issue, some of us have lost close friends, co-workers and acquaintances in the past.  We as an org have lost troops in circumstances that our government was less than honest about, I.E. Gunther, etc.  If you stick it out and do a lot of observing, there is a lot of solid UFI in here mixed with a lot of good oleâ€™ military jesting and rivalry.       

Just pick your battles wisely here and when you decide to go all out, make sure you die on the right hill, err post that is.     

Hey Infanteer, I almost spit my coffee on the monitor with your last.  Had this BIG ape RCR Sgt on a crse a million years ago, that was his, but it ended with.



> So show a little tact and get the lay of the land before you whip your wiener (he used another term) out and christen the ground.


 :warstory:


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2002)

Harry,
Well sir, I am sure that there is a PAM somewhere with "jack-ups" for NCO‘s that I haven‘t been able to find yet.  I keep hearing the same great lines, so maybe they are just hiding it up in their mess....


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## enfield (22 Apr 2002)

Why did these men have to be dead in order for ther accomplishments to be valued and applauded? Why do they as Canadian soldiers only get respect in death?

I mourn for those soldiers and their families and comrades. However, the media frenzy around this is disgusting. Suddenly everyone is the CF‘s best friend and soldiers are loved and respected. But it is all false, as usual. 
Bodies have come home before, and troops been in combat before, but no one paid attention. The outcry around this just makes the lack of attention previously paid to casualities even more disgusting. Let us not forget the 106 soldiers that paid the ultimate price on UN missions, or the 16 soldiers that were killed in Yugolsavia.


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## Harry (22 Apr 2002)

Enfield,  you have illuminated something that strikes a cord with me as well.

I am glad Canadians in general have come together to show respect and love for our fallen brothers and that their families are allowed to grieve.

I fear that the media frenzy is going to pick up it‘s tempo in the forthcoming weeks and it will turn into a circus.  So the cynic in me questions the majority if Canadians who prior to this had no care or concern for the CF, so why the new found interest.

Where were these people when the cover up of Daniel Gunther‘s death was exposed.  No one called the government to task on that one.

I don‘t want to muddle in this topic, but I will be watching the Grits to see if they deflect a lot of flack with this incident, especially the Auditor Generals report.

UBIQUE


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2002)

Did anyone catch the date of the public memorial service in Edmonton coming up.  Many of us are leaving to Edmonton for work-up training next weekend and we might be able to attend it.


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2002)

Just found the answer.  The military memorial will be held in Edmonton on April 28, so unfortunately we will not be present to attend.


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## bc_railfan (22 Apr 2002)

thanks harry, your second post made me realize that though i do have many of the facts, i lack much of the real world experience to put them all together.

i‘ll happily sit back and learn what i can from experienced post-ers on this board, and think twice about what i am saying.

i have nothing but respect for those with many more years of experience than me.  

thanks again.


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## cagomez (22 Apr 2002)

Sorry, try this

 http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/cdn_casualties/wifediary/wifediary_index.html


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2002)

NDP leader Alexis McDunough is calling for us to pull out of Afghanistan.  What for?!?  So the death of these four troopers is nothing to this country but an exercise in futility?  They died in the service of an undeserving nation that easily forgets where its freedom and peace come from.  That stupid wench should learn when to keep her trap shut...


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## Andrew (24 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by Enfield:
> Suddenly everyone is the CF‘s best friend and soldiers are loved and respected. Bodies have come home before, and troops been in combat before, but no one paid attention. The outcry around this just makes the lack of attention previously paid to casualities even more disgusting. Let us not forget the 106 soldiers that paid the ultimate price on UN missions, or the 16 soldiers that were killed in Yugolsavia.[/QB]


I agree with you on you comments but......perhaps this is an eye opener to the Canadian Public, media, goverment????  Unfortunatly it had to take this long and be under these circumstances that it took so long.  With the public being on the Soldier‘s side(so it seems) could there be a possibility that there will be more funding now??  Better equipment ect?
(probably the wrong forum to bring this up in but eh)

Andrew


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## Coniar (27 Apr 2002)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by chet:
I am a high school student with enough balls to even post my opinions on a public board. perhaps they somewhat poorly timed, but not ill-informed.</a>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts like that give all teenagers a bad name and make it really hard for people like me who just want to learn and listen, people Ignore or shun teenagers because of steryotypes that have been developed over encouters like this, It takes a computer and a load mouth to post opinions the only thing you dont need our balls.
Just thought Id give MY opinion on that.

As for Canadian causalties they are seriously neglected by the public, I had no idea that Canada had even been involved in a war since WW2 until I read a few books on Korea and Canadian Military History I have not heard a thing in school about Military history but Ive studyied the Roman Empire 3 years in a row(almost identical content every year). The public school system has absolutley no interest in the Military exept for the Recriutment posters in the halls and the Rememberance day ceremony, there wasnt even a moment of silence for the four fallen soldiers, no anouncment, nothing. The flags have been at half mast since the Queen mother passed on so I dont know if there there for her or for them.

Coniar


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Apr 2002)

Speaking of ill-informed - all these predictions that the new casualties will be a "wake up call" to the Canadian voter is certainly quite strange.

It hasn‘t been a case of Canadians not wanting an Army so much as Canadians wanting other things more - welfare, social security, etc.  This isn‘t going to change any of that, and eastern voters still aren‘t going to change their tune, or their ballots.

My God, if they were stupid enough in Hamilton to re-elect Tequila Sheila, what makes anyone honestly believe that a half dozen body bags are going to have people rioting in the streets?  They won‘t, and things will continue on as they always have.


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## Andrew (29 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> 
> This isn‘t going to change any of that, and eastern voters still aren‘t going to change their tune, or their ballots.
> 
> ...


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## Michael Dorosh (29 Apr 2002)

Leopard skins are worn by all Commonwealth drummers, it dates back to the time of slavery, when blacks were used as drummers in line regiments.

The Calgary Highlanders wear Black Bear skins today, since they are more common and less endangered than leopards!


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