# Renaming of jr ranks mess



## a_beautiful_tragedy (23 Jan 2009)

I would like to rename a Jr ranks mess after the first fallen soldier from its membership to die in war since WWII. It is something the Jr ranks wish to do to respect and remember our fallen member and show to our other members who are heading over seas that they will not be forgotten, and that they are supported by the mess organization. I'm bring this to all of your attentions because we have been running into problems with doing this and I want to know if any of the mess' in the CF at anytime have been renamed after one of our fallen, because I need an argument to support our decision. Apparently a soldier spilling blood for his country isn't enough.


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## helpup (23 Jan 2009)

I could be wrong, but my understanding is the Messes are named for a honour or reason already, that name tends to take precedence. However the building itself can be dedicated to a individual. It may seem like splitting hairs but I can understand it to a point.


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## a_beautiful_tragedy (23 Jan 2009)

Do you mean all the messes across Canada have one name ? or each individual mess already has its name ? Our Jr Ranks mess is simply called...."the Junior ranks mess"


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## helpup (23 Jan 2009)

Most that I am familiar with have it's own name but most troops refer to it as the Junior Ranks club,  For example in Pet we have the Kyrienia Club. Corriano Club, There use to be the Grenade club.


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## Nfld Sapper (23 Jan 2009)

In Gagetown its just called The Maritime Club.


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## Haggis (23 Jan 2009)

The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders in Cornwall, ON renamed their Jr Ranks mess to the "LCpl George Pollard Mess" honouring this soldier who was one of 17 Canadian Army POWs executed by the SS at the Abbaye d'Ardennes.  His body was never found.


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Jan 2009)

I think there used to be a CFAO that dealt with the naming of works and building (and similar things).  If not a current CFAO there will be regulations about naming government buildings (or parts thereof).  Having been involved in the process a few times (years ago and not specifically for a mess) it can get very difficult.

Perhaps you can clarify a few points that may assist others in advising you.

Is your Jnr Ranks Club a stand-alone building or is it a designated area within an existing structure (such as an Armoury)?  

Has your mess been “named“ at any time in the past?  This may have happened long before you were born and the name of the mess fell into disuse.  It can be embarrassing to go through the process only to find out later that your mess was at one time named for someone who fell in a previous war or for an event that is of significance to your regiment (or another regiment that shares your mess).

Are you the PMC (or a member of the mess committee) of your mess?

Has the mess membership voted on a resolution to name the mess or is this just something that a bunch of vocal guys want to do?  Has this resolution been formally passed to the Commanding Officer?

Have you received the approval of  the fallen comrade’s NOK?  This should be done much later in the process when it is almost assured that it will be permitted.  It can be equally embarrassing if you name the facility and the family disapproves, or you tell the family you are going to name it for their loved one and it doesn’t happen.


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## 1feral1 (23 Jan 2009)

All OR's (JR's) Messes throughout Australia are named after VC winners. Two examples are The Mackey Club, and The Partridge Tavern, etc.

Regards,

OWDU


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## ModlrMike (23 Jan 2009)

CFP 200, I think it is, deals with this subject. The requirements are well laid out and quite stringent. I recommend that you speak to the unit or base Adjt as this likely falls within their purview.


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## dapaterson (23 Jan 2009)

To be preceise, chapter 10 of CFP 200 is titled "NAMING OF WORKS, BUILDINGS AND GEOGRAPHICAL FEATURES".

Some considerations:



> 2. The use of personal names requires National
> Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) approval and is
> restricted to:
> 
> ...



There's still more in the publication, pull it up and read it carefully.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jan 2009)

Regardless of the outcome, this is a good topic for a Friday evening bar stool conversation (in the mess). Well done that man...


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## helpup (26 Jan 2009)

I agree Daft, and nice to see others with the time able to provide the process for doing it. I know currently we tend to name FOB's and the like for members killed in Afghan. Buildings or areas in a building would tend to be limited to that all important word Distinguished. ( a hint of sarcasm here ) I think it is high time we have further clarification to those rules especially with the current OP Tempo of the CF


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## Haggis (26 Jan 2009)

helpup said:
			
		

> I agree Daft, and nice to see others with the time able to provide the process for doing it. I know currently we tend to name FOB's and the like for members killed in Afghan. Buildings or areas in a building would tend to be limited to that all important word Distinguished. ( a hint of sarcasm here ) I think it is high time we have further clarification to those rules especially with the current OP Tempo of the CF



Camp Nathan Smith is a perfect example.  My liberal interpretation of the tem "entire structure" would lead me to believe that this adequately describes a FOB.


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## geo (26 Jan 2009)

My old reserve infantry unit went around and named each room in the armoury after it's VC winners & battle honours


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## Bzzliteyr (26 Jan 2009)

The Armour School had almost every classroom dedicated to a fallen member of the Corps last time I was there.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Jan 2009)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> The Armour School had almost every classroom dedicated to a fallen member of the Corps last time I was there.



With all due repect to our fondly remembered departed, isn't that depressing? 

Climbing huts also all seem to be named after dead guys. A few years ago I was up in the Rockies at the Abbot Pass Hut, climbing Mt Lefory and Victoria. It turns out that Mr. Abbot was the first alpine climbing fatality in the Canadian Rockies when he plunged to his death decsending from Mt Lefroy many years ago. The weather was bad so I got bored and started a good argument going amongst the hut residents when I suggested that was all bollox and we should only put the names of our living heroes on huts etc.

An unofficial poll showed that the group was pretty much split 50/50 on the subject. And it kept them busy while I used to stove to brew up. Mission accomplished


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## George Wallace (26 Jan 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> With all due repect to our fondly remembered departed, isn't that depressing?
> 
> Climbing huts also all seem to be named after dead guys. A few years ago I was up in the Rockies at the Abbot Pass Hut, climbing Mt Lefory and Victoria. It turns out that Mr. Abbot was the first alpine climbing fatality in the Canadian Rockies when he plunged to his death decsending from Mt Lefroy many years ago. The weather was bad so I got bored and started a good argument going amongst the hut residents when I suggested that was all bollox and we should only put the names of our living heroes on huts etc.
> 
> An unofficial poll showed that the group was pretty much split 50/50 on the subject. And it kept them busy while I used to stove to brew up. Mission accomplished




Not all are named after dead guys, but the advantage of naming them after dead guys, is that no egos get inflated.


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## davidk (26 Jan 2009)

The CGG's Jr ranks mess is called the JFY club, after John Francis Young, VC.


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## my72jeep (26 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> In Gagetown its just called The Maritime Club.


Back in my day we called the JR's in St John's the Garrison Club.


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## PiperDown (26 Jan 2009)

The JR's in shilo was renamed after 2VP moved to town.  In order to better reflect the entire military community now in shilo it was deemed a name change was in order.
All that was required was a vote by the members at a mess meeting. (and new name to be approved by base commander).. Its your mess.. the membership can call it what they want.

Cheers,


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## a_beautiful_tragedy (26 Jan 2009)

There is alot of great information here, thank you so much everybody.


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Jan 2009)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Back in my day we called the JR's in St John's the Garrison Club.



Oh that's long since gone. IIRC it was in the bldg that housed 56 FD SQN and 36 Circus SVC BN. That room is now called the A.C. Cowan room.

We have gone to two seperate messes here the Jr's and the SNCO'S/WO'S AND OFFICERS MESS lol


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## my72jeep (26 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Oh that's long since gone. IIRC it was in the bldg that housed 56 FD SQN and 35 Circus SVC BN. That room is now called the A.C. Cowan room.
> 
> We have gone to two seperate messes here the Jr's and the SNCO'S/WO'S AND OFFICERS MESS lol


35 thought it was 36?


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Jan 2009)

my bad......

 :brickwall:


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## Blakey (26 Jan 2009)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> The JR's in shilo was renamed after 2VP moved to town.  In order to better reflect the entire military community now in shilo it was deemed a name change was in order.
> All that was required was a vote by the members at a mess meeting. (and new name to be approved by base commander).. Its your mess.. the membership can call it what they want.
> 
> Cheers,



I still remember that "fiasco"  :
Thanks to *that* vote, the JR's is now know as "The Junior Ranks Club"


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## my72jeep (26 Jan 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> my bad......
> 
> :brickwall:


Sok... you said they shared the same building as the 56, they used to be down the hill. I used to toss apples down the hill at my older brother who was a EME.


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Jan 2009)

36 is in BLDG 312


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## geo (26 Jan 2009)

HighlandIslander said:
			
		

> The CGG's Jr ranks mess is called the JFY club, after John Francis Young, VC.



You have obviously spent waay too much time hanging around the CGG armoury.... back to the Red Hackle club you go!


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## davidk (26 Jan 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> You have obviously spent waay too much time hanging around the CGG armoury.... back to the Red Hackle club you go!



It's one of the few I remember about their mess from when I visited on Levee Day a couple of years back... the rest is still a blur.


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## catalyst (27 Jan 2009)

Its a great mess


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