# Afghan Interpreters, Others Fast-tracking to Canada



## TrexLink (12 Jul 2008)

> *Dying to serve Canada*
> 
> Jul 12, 2008 04:30 AM
> 
> ...



More: http://www.thestar.com/SpecialSections/article/459045


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## geo (12 Jul 2008)

A difficult situation - for sure!

But, I think that things have to be put into perspective.

Canadian (and allied) troops are in Afghanistan - to support the Afghan government.  They (Afgh Gov<t) have asked us to come and help them eradicate the Taliban & their Ossama friend + the Opium.

Although we do use Afghan interpreters, they are employed to support us while we support their government.
Though I am certain that we do provide some form of financial compensation package to the injured afghan interpreters, I do not believe we have a responsibility to bail them out, forever & ever Amen!

We do not ask the Afghan government to provide financial support to the canadian troops that are injured in operations.  Should we ?

The Canadian Government does provide financial compensation to the Afghan people who accidentaly fall in the sights of our weapons or under the wheels / tracks of our vehicles.  We messed up and we do own up to our responsibilities.

How far should we go ???


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## TrexLink (12 Jul 2008)

A good question, Geo.  I accept your arguments but on the other hand, the Afghan government's ability to support them is pretty limited ('nil' would be the word that comes to mind).  Given the willingness of successive Canadian governments to let in virtually anybody as a refugee, I would think it not unwarranted to bring them and their immediate families to Canada. Nobody I can think of is as hard-working as the Afghans and even with a peg leg, these guys are not going to be burden on our system. Further, they have proven their loyalty to things we espouse, like freedom, and have actually risked their lives for it - and our troops.  I would say they are better immigrant choices than many now claiming sanctuary in Canadian church basements these days.


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## forcerecon85 (12 Jul 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> We do not ask the Afghan government to provide financial support to the canadian troops that are injured in operations.  Should we ?



Good point. I never thought of it that way.

I'd be open to letting immigration for Afghans that have assisted us in the field a little easier. Maybe with a letter of recommendation to separate everyday Afghans that want to live here. Not sure how to make the process easier though.


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## geo (12 Jul 2008)

Though injured, the Afghan people need these guys.
If they are able to lead a constructive life then I would contend that their country needs them  -  bringing them here would deprive Afghan of the industriour people they will need if the Karzai gov't is to succeed.

Canada should provide some health care infrastructure & help train the people who can help heal & educate our Afghan friends.... Period!


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## grmpz1 (12 Jul 2008)

i've heard that the australians in iraq granted the iraqis that helped them in the campaign australian citizenship....so i guess the process could also work here


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## JayJay144 (13 Jul 2008)

hi there this is my first post on the forum. My name is Jordan. Handed in my papers to the recruiting office recently so I've been reading through the site. It's been very helpfully and full of good information.

This is an interesting post I suppose for my first. Wouldn't these people be of value to the Defence department? The government doesn't have to grant them permanent citizenship but even if they were allowed to come to Canada on a temporary basis I think they would be able to pass on valuable information about the culture, the language and the like to soldiers and civilians who will be deployed. Just a thought. these people made the decision to help the coalition and their country when they could have easily gone the other way.


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## geo (13 Jul 2008)

JayJay144 said:
			
		

> hi there this is my first post on the forum. My name is Jordan. Handed in my papers to the recruiting office recently so I've been reading through the site. It's been very helpfully and full of good information.
> 
> This is an interesting post I suppose for my first. Wouldn't these people be of value to the Defence department? The government doesn't have to grant them permanent citizenship but even if they were allowed to come to Canada on a temporary basis I think they would be able to pass on valuable information about the culture, the language and the like to soldiers and civilians who will be deployed. Just a thought. these people made the decision to help the coalition and their country when they could have easily gone the other way.


I don't see the purpose of offering them the equivalent of "assylum"... either you offer them citzenship - or you don't.

WRT valuable information.... umm... like what ?
remember, we've been there for something like 6 years already - they can be most valuable in theatre... not over here.


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## AirCanuck (13 Jul 2008)

it's definitely a good point to put it in the point of view that we have been requested to help their government and not the other way around - my immediate reaction was to agree that we should do something to help these men immigrate but given the arguments that geo presented it definitely becomes less clear.  Given the fact that we are there at their request, it's definitely apt to point out that we don't request compensation from their government for our wounded men..


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## the 48th regulator (13 Jul 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Though injured, the Afghan people need these guys.
> If they are able to lead a constructive life then I would contend that their country needs them  -  bringing them here would deprive Afghan of the industriour people they will need if the Karzai gov't is to succeed.
> 
> Canada should provide some health care infrastructure & help train the people who can help heal & educate our Afghan friends.... Period!



Here here,

Good thing we did not allow the Kraughts, Wops, or Japs to flood our shores in '45!

Otherwise who knows what would have happened to their countires after the war, or ours for that matter! 

dileas

tess


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## daftandbarmy (14 Jul 2008)

How would you feel if Afghan employees of the CF in Afghanistan injured themselves on purpose, just to become Canadian citizens (to save their own lives and the lives of their families)?  For those on this forum who have seen the third world at it's worst I'm sure you'll agree that, if we set a precedent like this, it's likely to happen... alot.


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## armyvern (14 Jul 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Though injured, the Afghan people need these guys.
> If they are able to lead a constructive life then I would contend that their country needs them  -  bringing them here would deprive Afghan of the industriour people they will need if the Karzai gov't is to succeed.
> 
> Canada should provide some health care infrastructure & help train the people who can help heal & educate our Afghan friends.... Period!



I agree with your sentiments on this Geo.

Imagine had all our vets who helped to liberate Europe stayed there afterwards. Canada would be such a poorer place for for it.

Afhghanistan needs these people who have stood up and fought for their country; they need them to help build it, and to teach their future generations that democracy is well worth the fight.


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## JayJay144 (14 Jul 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Here here,
> 
> Good thing we did not allow the Kraughts, Wops, or Japs to flood our shores in '45!
> 
> ...



Canada could have ended up hiring nazi scientists like the US had that been the case. It wasn't too long after the war though that Italians (47) and Germans (1950) were allowed to immigrate to Canada. taken off the enemy aliens list. 

getting back on track though it's a sticky topic. Canada lets in a small number of Iraqi refugees, and a slightly larger number of afghans each year. 

http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/department/media/releases/2008/2008-03-19a.asp
http://www.cic.gc.ca/ENGLISH/department/media/releases/2008/2008-03-18.asp

anyways these people will try to immigrate regardless once they figure out the correct process. I can't argue the issue however you guys do make a strong point that they should be helping their country get off it's feet. at the very least they can still be of use somehow despite how they feel about being injured.


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## 1feral1 (14 Jul 2008)

grmpz1 said:
			
		

> i've heard that the australians in iraq granted the iraqis that helped them in the campaign australian citizenship....so i guess the process could also work here



Greetings to fellow happy members and guests.

In answer to the above, not quite true, but many have been granted permanant residency. About 600 could be ellegible for this gesture. As for citizenship, after two years any person with permanant residency may apply. For sake of argument, they could stay 30 yrs, still remain as Australian permanant  residents (not Australian citizens) and Iraqi citizens. It would be an individual's decision to take out citizenship.

On a personal note, many locals we had working for us during my tour, had been working for the Australian government since 2003. Risking their own lives daily in transit to and from work as 'collaborators' of the Great Satan (many are and were indeed followed, and some have been killed, simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time), and accompanying us during our daily missions as translators. IEDs, VBIEDs, SBIEDs, snipers etc was daily thing not only for them, but for us too.

I made good friends with a few, and I admire their bravery and dedication (as the pay is not that well), putting themselves at risk many times. Many still have families and extended families in Iraq, while others have sent family members to Jordan and other places for safety.

As much as I am not a lover of their religion and culture, I still would welcome any that I worked with as neighbours here, where the only thing you have to worry about is paying your Visa card.

I am looking forward to the day that I can host a BBQ here, with some of them.

I think it is noble of our government to give refuge to all that have worked for us over there, and I beleive it is a good idea overall.

My 2 bob.

Happy days,

OWDU


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## Danjanou (14 Jul 2008)

Interesting argument. Of course one would need to ask if such a program were put in place, would all of them take advantage of it including as D&B suggests deliberately injuring themselves to move to the head of the line. I would like to think that for everyone who would wish to come here, there would be several who had no desire to do so and prefer to stay the course there. The cynic in me though says that while a noble gesture it has the potential to be open for abuse.

I’ve traveled extensively in the third world and much of my present job involves interacting with immigrants including both the best and the worst, those who are here simply to suck off our generous social welfare system. 

Like Wes I'd have no problems with this particular individual becoming my neighbour. I may have to modify my BBQ menu a bit so as not to offend, but a small price to pay for someone who has already done so much for his country and mine.


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## geo (14 Jul 2008)

Danjanou... 
While I am not sure someone would injure himself to get to the front of the line.... the possibility that he might consider injuring himself to get his whole family to the front of the line might very well be an irresistible oportunity.

Help them to get into line is one thing - barging in - to the front of the line.... I don't think so.


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## Danjanou (14 Jul 2008)

Our present Immigration system is broken as it is. Line cutting is only one area that needs to be fixed.


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## GAP (1 May 2009)

Canada to welcome hundreds of Afghan employees
Updated Thu. Apr. 30 2009 6:19 PM ET The Canadian Press
Article Link

OTTAWA -- Canada is set to open its doors to hundreds of Afghans who face life-threatening risks after having worked with our military and diplomats, The Canadian Press has learned. 

Immigration Minister Jason Kenney says he's putting the final touches on a policy to provide safe haven to Afghans endangered by their association with Canada. 

Unlike other NATO countries, Canada has no policy on humanitarian immigration for local staff -- but that's about to change. 

Afghans who have been severely injured working with the Canadian military, or who can prove they face threats, will be eligible for fast-track entry. 

The first of those ex-employees and their immediate relatives could arrive within months. 

The policy goes much further than the one initially considered by the Harper government, which last year said it would examine possible ways to bring over severely injured interpreters only. 

The new program will be open to anyone with 12 months' service to the Canadian mission, medical and security checks, and a recommendation letter from a senior soldier or diplomat. 

Kenney says his first preference is for them to resettle in safer parts of Afghanistan, because the last thing policy-makers want is an exodus of educated, liberal, English-speaking people from that country. 

"Those kind of people are going to have to play a central role in the long-term construction of a stable and democratic Afghanistan," Kenney said in an interview. 

"But in particular circumstances where we feel that a person's safety will be jeopardized by staying in the country, the door will be open to Canada. ... 

"I think Canadians would be proud to help provide refuge to those who have helped our forces, aid personnel and diplomats." 

Kenney said he expects hundreds of Afghan employees to benefit from the program, along with their immediate families. 

Insurgents have gone to gruesome lengths to make an example of locals who work with NATO. 

In one case, several interpreters' bodies were strung up in a public square and left to rot there for weeks as a lesson to anyone else thinking of helping the foreigners. 

Government officials say the program is inspired by similar ones in the United States, Britain, Australia and Denmark. 

Officials say they would receive many of the same services as refugees: income support for 12 months, health benefits and help preparing a CV and finding work. 

The program is to be funded by the existing budget at Citizenship and Immigration. 
More on link


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## Colin Parkinson (1 May 2009)

While I understand the concern of draining the educated class from the country, I think supporting the people that risk so much to help us is a worthy cause. For those that are wounded while working for us, deserve our long time support.


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## 1feral1 (1 May 2009)

A good plan, as Australia has done the same, allowing up to 600 Iraqis employed by the ADF to come to Australia to start a new life. I have no idea on how many are accepting this generous offer. We did it for the South Vietnamese before our pullout from SVN, long before the boat people came here.

I would welcome 'Fil' our translator (from Baghdad), as a neighbour any day. He risked his life just coming in, and not including the VBIED/IED sniper threat daily on our missions outside the wire. He rode around in our LAVs like any one of us.  Fil was a former Iraqi Army officer, a LT, who was involved in the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. University educated, spoke excellent english, ran a profital business within our FOB, and was rather carismatic to say the least. 

OWDU


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## Long in the tooth (3 May 2009)

This makes a lot of sense.  For years we've been paying people to come to Canada and foster their culture without any loyalty to this country.  Giving these Afghanis a fast track is the smarth thing to do.


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## Armymedic (3 May 2009)

"makes a lot of sense" and "right thing to do" just guarantees that some group of Canadian citizens will have a problem with this, and there will be some media seeking politician that will also disagree with it.


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## X-mo-1979 (4 May 2009)

Immigration shouldnt be a problem when they give reason for landing here to become citizens as "Due to helping your country my family and I will be killed if we remain in Afganistan"

I support their immigration here 100%.It's the least we can do.


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## slayer (4 May 2009)

Canadians are losing jobs by the thousands, and still our govt gives them to foreigners.


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## Redeye (4 May 2009)

Seriously?

No really, seriously?

I'm sorry, but what jobs exactly are being "given" to anyone by the government other than public service jobs and military jobs, most of which can't be held by "foreigners" in the first place?

Canadians are losing jobs because our economy is evolving.  Soon it will grow again and a myriad of new jobs will be created.  Never mind the fact that a lot of those jobs that those "foreigners" take are jobs that Canadians don't seem to be lining up for, and on top of that they are often very, very good at creating themselves jobs.  In Pickering where I work the convenience store next door to my office is run by an Afghan family, nice people.   The pizza shop in Oshawa I pick up dinner from sometimes, also run by an Afghan man, who employs a number of people.  There is quite a community in a few cities that these folks will probably be integrated into and thrive in.  Nothing wrong with that.  We owe them that much for the fact that they cannot safely live in Afghanistan anymore on account of their decision to help us make their country a better place.  So they come here, build themselves good lives, send money to relatives back home that helps them live better lives, and maybe one day they even decide to go home with whatever they learn from here and apply it there.  I don't see the problem.





			
				slayer said:
			
		

> Canadians are losing jobs by the thousands, and still our govt gives them to foreigners.


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## jollyjacktar (5 May 2009)

The Terps that I work with on a daily basis are all in a lather over this.  Some of these guys I believe could easily come home and make the adjustment to life in Canada with minimal culture shock.  Some of the others not so much.  Still, they have paid dues to us by their past and present service.  This is a right thing to do and about bloody time.  I hope that some of them get the nod.


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## McG (5 May 2009)

If the article's title is correct and it is "hundreds" then this may actually be a disservice to Afghanistan and run counter to some of our objectives (As stated in the article, Afghanistan cannot afford for us to export too significant a number of its "educated, liberal, English-speaking people").

However, if the program is aimed at tens/dozens (even into the several tens & dozens) then I do not see any harm.


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## George Wallace (15 Sep 2009)

How does this bring stability to Afghanistan?



> Ottawa to open doors to local Afghan workers
> TheStar.com September 15, 2009 Bruce Campion-Smith Ottawa Bureau Chief
> Article Link
> 
> ...


 

This is freaking madness.  We are spending hundreds of billions of dollars in sending troops and equipment, Police advisors, Corrections Canada advisors, NGOs, OGAs, aid, etc. to Afghanistan attempting to bring stability to the Region.  The very people we are helping and benefiting and are our hope to continue this work after we are gone, are these very people Jason Kenny now wants to bring to Canada.  This makes absolutely no sense.  We are bringing people from a different culture, society, education, and religion out of their native land, where they can continue to contribute to the rebuilding of their nation, here to Canada where not only they will have a serious case of culture shock, but be placed on Welfare Rolls, probably in a ghetto, all at the Taxpayers expense.  This is sheer madness.


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## Shec (15 Sep 2009)

Is this evidence of a defeatist mentality?   Conjures up memories of the last flights out of Saigon.  I realize that our combat role is programmed to end in 2011 but that does not mean we're raising the white flag.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Sep 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We are bringing people from a different culture, society, education, and religion out of their native land, where they can continue to contribute to the rebuilding of their nation, here to Canada where not only they will have a serious case of culture shock, but be placed on Welfare Rolls, probably in a ghetto, all at the Taxpayers expense.



I'm looking forward to more details:  are they talking interpreters and low-level folks/"fixers", or cops/soldiers/bureaucrats?  In the case of the former, there might be some cases where they have no future once the folks they helped leave, but in the case of the latter, what GW said....



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> How does this bring stability to Afghanistan? .... This is sheer madness.


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## Kat Stevens (15 Sep 2009)

Yeah, I mean it's not like they're Russians, or Chinese, or Philippinos, or Indians.  You know, those immigrants who are instinctively tuned in to Canadian culture and blend in seamlessly without forming their own communities.


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## dapaterson (15 Sep 2009)

When the West declares victory and goes home, and Afghanistan reverts to its traditional warlordism (everyone expecting a Jeffersonian democracy to take root before 2011, please raise your hand) many who supported the NATO troops will be identified as traitors and targetted for elimination.

On the moral plane, what do we owe those who supported us and worked for us?  "Thanks for coming out, sucks to be you."?  Or do we offer them an opportunity to leave with us?

Not ideal by any stretch of the imagination for some of the reasons George mentions.  I would strongly suggest that the "ghettoes and welfare rolls" is not the probable result; most first and second generation immigrants have a tremendous work ethic (particularly compared to some of their slovenly XXth generation Canadians confreres, suckign at the teat of public support from generation to generation) and contribute well to Canadian society.


Basic question:  Do we abandon those who help us?


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## The Bread Guy (15 Sep 2009)

...thanks to a news release just out (highlights mine):


> The Government of Canada will offer special measures to facilitate immigration to Canada for *certain local staff who face exceptional risk or who have suffered serious injury as a result of their work for the Canadian government in Kandahar province, Afghanistan*.
> 
> "There are Afghans who face extraordinary personal risk as a result of their work in support of Canada's mission in Kandahar," said Jason Kenney, Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism. "We commend their bravery to help build a better Afghanistan while recognizing the price that they have paid. Their lives and those of their families may be threatened by insurgents, and some have suffered serious injury and can no longer work. To recognize their contribution, we will offer them special consideration if they wish to relocate to Canada."
> 
> ...


The last part I highlight in yellow because I believe this will "disincent" ANY Afghan from wanting to help Canadians, even if there is even a notional presence left, post 2011.


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## George Wallace (15 Sep 2009)

What a can of worms.  Not only is your highlighted portion a fairly damning point, but I beg to question how anyone is going to perform a timely and thorough criminal, medical and security screening that is acceptable to national standards currently in effect?

This is nothing more than a "feel good" political move by not only our politicians, but many other nations (as stated in the articles) to save some face after abandoning the Afghan people.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Sep 2009)

.... from the backgrounder to the earlier news release:


> The Government of Canada will offer special immigration measures for certain Afghan nationals who have served as local staff in Kandahar province.
> 
> To be eligible, the individual must provide evidence of:
> 
> ...


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## Larkvall (15 Sep 2009)

I don't think too many of these guys will end up on welfare, but I do agree with George that this does not help to bring stability to Afghanistan. These are the types of people that are needed for Afghanistan to build itself into a proper nation (whatever that means). If it is such a forgone conclusion the country is going to go down the toilet why don't we just pull out now?


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## Edward Campbell (15 Sep 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> When the West declares victory and goes home, and Afghanistan reverts to its traditional warlordism (everyone expecting a Jeffersonian democracy to take root before 2011, please raise your hand) many who supported the NATO troops will be identified as traitors and targetted for elimination.
> 
> On the moral plane, what do we owe those who supported us and worked for us?  "Thanks for coming out, sucks to be you."?  Or do we offer them an opportunity to leave with us?
> 
> ...




I'm with dapaterson, point by point. There will be a few short term costs but I do not see how we could offer less.

Remember "one is too many"? Never again.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Jan 2010)

In May 2009, we hear the first hints of something being worked on.

In September 2009, we hear Canada's commitment to act.

In January 2010, the Canadian Press says it's not going as well as one would hope:


> Canadian soldiers might be long gone from Afghanistan before Afghans who risked their lives in support of the mission are ever allowed into Canada.
> 
> Nine months after Ottawa promised to expedite immigration applications from those Afghans, the new bureaucratic maze they have to navigate has barely sputtered into existence.
> 
> ...


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## cn (25 May 2010)

Found on 680 News Toronto's website.

http://www.680news.com/news/national/article/58973--cda-finally-processing-entry-requests-for-afghan-interpreters-but-few-make-cut


*Cda finally processing entry requests for Afghan interpreters, but few make cut*

CALGARY - More than a year after Ottawa promised to fast-track immigration applications for Afghan translators a narrow list of applicants who meet the criteria to come to Canada has been compiled.

Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney originally announced the program for Afghans who face "extraordinary personal risk" in support of Canada's mission to Kandahar.

But out of 114 applications only 25, or roughly 21 per cent, have been approved to come to Canada by the joint committee made up of officials from the departments of National Defence, Foreign Affairs, International Development and Immigration and Citizenship. The committee works in conjunction with the International Organization for Migration, an intergovernmental agency.

"We're beginning to process some of the approved applications. There was a delay because we need to work as well through the International Organization for Migration and they removed all their staff for security reasons in Kandahar," Kenney said in a recent interview.

"The security situation has made it go slower than I would have liked but we're finally starting to process some of those positive applications and some of those people should be settling in Canada shortly."

Neither Kenney nor officials in his department could say exactly when the successful immigrants, who are allowed to bring along two family members each, would finally be arriving in Canada.

Applicants require 12 months service to the Canadian mission and a recommendation letter from a senior soldier or diplomat. They also need to meet standard immigration criteria such as criminal, medical and security screening before being allowed to come to Canada.

They're not considered refugees, but special immigrants who fall through the cracks of current law. At the time Kenney said he expected "a few hundred'' successful applicants to qualify by the time the mission and the program ends in 2011.

The life of an interpreter who works with the NATO-led mission can be a dangerous one. An unexpected knock, a threatening late-night phone call, or a so-called "night letter'' nailed to the front door — such intimidation tactics are a chilling fact of life for locals who work as translators for the Canadian Forces or federal agencies on the ground in Afghanistan.

Insurgents have gone to gruesome lengths to make an example of locals who work with NATO. In one case, several interpreters' bodies were strung up in a public square and left to rot there for weeks as a lesson to anyone thinking of helping the foreigners.

Both the delay and the low number of interpreters that have so far been approved is a concern to Liberal MP Dan McTeague, the party critic for consular affairs.

"Obviously the time this has taken is painfully slow and certainly an agonizing time for those who have been given assurances that everything would be done at the early stages," said McTeague.

"It's a troubling statistic. One would hope that the numbers do reflect the need and that we are not leaving someone behind unduly who might otherwise suffer as a result of our ability to determine who is legitimate and who isn't."

McTeague said for those who have been working with Canadian efforts going back to 2005, the wait can be seen as "stretching the limits" of what would be considered fast-tracking.

The interpreters — "terps," in military parlance — are vital in the coalition's effort to communicate with most Afghans. By the country's usual standards, it's lucrative work — $600 a month, compared with the national average of just $300 a year. Afghan soldiers, by comparison, make $250 a month.

Many interpreters live and travel full time with Canadian soldiers, helping commanders converse with village elders, politicians or local villagers.


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## jollyjacktar (26 May 2010)

About friggin time!  I do hope some of the Terps I worked with make it here.  They deserve a chance to live in peace.


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## The Bread Guy (26 May 2010)

More on this here:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/89135


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## The Bread Guy (20 Jul 2010)

....for their terps - from Radio Netherlands Worldwide:


> The 102 interpreters who have assisted the Dutch military mission in Afghanistan are angry. Although they have risked their lives for the country, the Netherlands has abandoned them. The Americans, by comparison, are allowing their interpreters and translators to apply for visas to travel to the United States.
> 
> The Afghan interpreters are not actually permitted to talk to journalists but they don't care any more. With the Dutch leaving the southern province of Uruzgan soon - on 1 August - their contracts have been terminated. They feel they are being forced to return to their families. But that's part of the problem - they complain in interviews with Radio Netherlands Worldwide - they are afraid the enemy will target them – and hence possibly their loved ones too - for working with the "heathens".
> 
> ...


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## 40below (20 Jul 2010)

As far as I'm concerned, they should have handed out a Canadian passport to every terp who signed up to work with them. Without terps, the CF is nothing in Afgh, you can't do COIN and you have no HUMINT, all the army can do is shoot people.


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## Big Red (20 Jul 2010)

40below said:
			
		

> As far as I'm concerned, they should have handed out a Canadian passport to every terp who signed up to work with them. Without terps, the CF is nothing in Afgh, you can't do COIN and you have no HUMINT, all the army can do is shoot people.



This is not entirely true. We actually had nine years to train soldiers to speak Pashtu/Dari. We were lazy and chose to rely on local national interpreters rather than developing our own language capability to augment them.


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## dapaterson (20 Jul 2010)

... but we do send one person a year on a two-year Korean language course so they can go to staff school in Korea.


It's all about priorities, you know...


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## GAP (20 Jul 2010)

So.....you mean in 40-50 years we will send someone to Afghanistan to learn to speak Pashtu/Dari, but will they have a staff college by then?


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## The Bread Guy (2 Aug 2010)

Latest from the Canadian Press:


> Ottawa's promised fast-track immigration policy for Afghan translators has left many interpreters stuck in the starting-blocks and fearing for their lives.
> 
> Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney originally announced the program to assist Afghans who face "extraordinary personal risk" because of their support for Canada's mission in Kandahar.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (4 Aug 2010)

....with interpreters (or not) from Radio Netherlands Worldwide:


> The end of the Dutch military mission in Afghanistan’s Uruzgan province also means the end of four years’ service for local interpreters. They say they shared the tough experiences of the Dutch and ran major risks too.
> 
> They expected more from the departing Dutch. Most, despite any misgivings they have, will be starting work with the United States forces which are taking over from the Dutch in the southern Afghan province. But the interpreters fear their new allegiance will lead to even more hatred from their fellow Afghans. “The Americans give out visas after two years. That’s what I’m pinning my hopes on,” one of them admits.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (10 Aug 2010)

I feel dumb for not having spotted this sooner, but former diplomat Eric Morse highlights how "we're dooming our Afghan helpers" - highlights mine:


> .... A statement obtained by CP from the Minister's Office states that *"The applicant must demonstrate that: the threat is directly related to the individual's support of the Canadian mission in Kandahar, or directly related to an immediate family member's support of the Canadian mission in Kandahar; and the threat is greater than the level of risk faced by the many others working for the Canadian government in Kandahar province in general."* The sanctimony alone in that statement is stupefying.
> 
> The idea that "extraordinary risk" can be quantified -- let alone evaluated -- by an interdepartmental committee of Ottawa-based bureaucrats beggars credulity. It exposes Canada as pettifogging, mean-minded, self absorbed, callous ....



(Sure enough, further down in the article I posted here
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/89135/post-959677.html#msg959677
you find the quote attributed to "the (M)inister's office".)

Note the second half of the quote I highlighted - it appears a terp has to prove he's in MORE danger than anyone else working for Canadians in order to make it onto the fast track.  Interestingly enough, I can't find that nuance in the public information distributed by Canada last year:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2009/2009-09-15.asp
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/backgrounders/2009/2009-09-15.asp
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/backgrounders/2009/2009-10-30a.asp
I've attached a screen capture of the material in case the links don't work for you.


----------



## GAP (10 Aug 2010)

I wonder how this deciding committee would react if we put them under similar threat.......


----------



## George Wallace (10 Aug 2010)

GAP said:
			
		

> I wonder how this deciding committee would react if we put them under similar threat.......



Problem is they can not fathom what the threat is.


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Aug 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Problem is they can not fathom what the threat is.


Much less figure out whether the threat the terps are facing is more than the others working for Canadians.


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Aug 2010)

My fear is that they will be left out hanging in the breeze when we all leave and they will pay a heavy price.  I worked with a Vietnam vet who had spent two tours in the mountains with the Green Berets.  He said he always felt badly that promises were made to these people and they were deserted when the US left, with dire consequences to those folks.  My Terps became my friends and I would hate to see them or their families get hurt if we let them down too.


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Sep 2010)

The latest via the Canadian Press - highlights mine:


> Canadian soldiers had just arrived in Kandahar province in 2006 when a local interpreter — everyone knew him simply as Max — took some shrapnel to his left eye from a Taliban rocket-propelled grenade.
> 
> The attack came during Operation Medusa, one of the bloodiest of the war. The driver sitting in front of Max was killed in the blast; the two soldiers riding with him were also injured.
> 
> ...


----------



## PuckChaser (26 Sep 2010)

Government bureaucracy at its finest.


----------



## shamu (26 Sep 2010)

"This makes absolutely no sense." 

Help Canadians in combat and you are considered for immigration.  Sounds reasonable.

"We are bringing people from a different culture, society, education, and religion out of their native land,"


Such is the entire history of all Canadians (with the arguable exception of first nations, inuit). 

where they can continue to contribute to the rebuilding of their nation, 

Hard to do if they are dead.  There's like what, 250 applications in?  There is also the ability to help rebuild as a Canadian/Land Immigrant.  Obviously we don't want to import all talent from the country, but there's like +30,000,000 of them... Personally, I'll take a Immigrant who genuinely helped Canadian troops in Afghanistan over an Immigrant who hasn't.

here to Canada where not only they will have a serious case of culture shock, but be placed on Welfare Rolls, probably in a ghetto, all at the Taxpayers expense.  This is sheer madness.

Sheer ignorance. Stereotyping, bigoted non-sensible ranting, blowing a story out of proportion....  

No need to reply, George Wallace.


----------



## PuckChaser (26 Sep 2010)

Took me a while to find out where your purple text is coming from, then I realized you're attempting to quote a post that was made over a year ago, and has since been replied to a bunch of times.


----------



## George Wallace (26 Sep 2010)

shamu

In all your rabid vitriol attack on me, taking words and not the whole statement, you made a biased rant and never really looked at what I was saying.  




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> How does this bring stability to Afghanistan?
> 
> 
> 
> This is freaking madness.  We are spending hundreds of billions of dollars in sending troops and equipment, Police advisors, Corrections Canada advisors, NGOs, OGAs, aid, etc. to Afghanistan attempting to bring stability to the Region.  The very people we are helping and benefiting and are our hope to continue this work after we are gone,  are these very people Jason Kenny now wants to bring to Canada.  This makes absolutely no sense.  ................



Then again, you may want to abandon the Afghan people altogether.  Leave them without any training or infrastructure.  We aren't going to solve anything in Afghanistan by bringing all their brightest to Canada.  We will have solved nothing.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Nov 2010)

Makes sense to me - this from the Canadian Press:


> Ottawa may extend its fast-track immigration policy for Afghan translators who help the Canadian Armed Forces and aid workers in Kandahar if troops remain in Afghanistan beyond 2011.
> 
> Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney said Friday it would make sense to continue the program for as long as such translators work with Canadians.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Dec 2010)

Seems like someone in the contractor's office has some 'splain' to do....


> A company that supplies Afghan translators for Canada's mission in Kandahar may have mistakenly raised the interpreters' hopes of emigrating to Canada, according to a newly released document.
> 
> A contingent of Canadian military and civilian officials say International Management Services, or IMS, told interpreters that their immigration papers were being considered — even though not every application was.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Sep 2011)

The latest:  one out of three applicants make it through the sausage machine....


> Two of every three Afghans who sought refuge in Canada after risking their lives working for the military in Kandahar have been turned away, including some who worked alongside Canadian soldiers during the bloodiest days of battle.
> 
> The special-measures program was announced with much fanfare by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney in the fall of 2009 and brought Canada in line with other NATO countries which had already launched similar initiatives.
> 
> ...


The Canadian Press, 11 Sept 11


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Sep 2011)

I am still in contact with my head terp.  He said he has been approved to come to Canada with his wife in about 3-4 months time.  One other chap was also approved, but the others are not successful at this point.  I'm pleased to think that at least my friend and his wife will be safe.


----------



## Sythen (16 Sep 2011)

Why stop with the LA's? The ANA and AUP also faced those dangers on patrols with us.. Bring them over.. Heck, when a normal civilian would point out where an IED was or a cache was hidden, find all of them and bring them over too. 

Every LA we had (we kept having to fire them for different reasons, so we had I'd say over a dozen) told us the only reason they were LA is cause they wanted to come to Canada. I can't provide proof of this or anything, but really is that the type of mentality we want in our immigrants? How can we expect Afghanistan to flourish at all when we take their most educated away?


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2011)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Every LA we had (we kept having to fire them for different reasons, so we had I'd say over a dozen) told us the only reason they were LA is cause they wanted to come to Canada. I can't provide proof of this or anything, but really is that the type of mentality we want in our immigrants? How can we expect Afghanistan to flourish at all when we take their most educated away?


If you look over the debate running up & down this thread, two philosophies debated are "we have to take them to protect them because they helped us when it was dangerous to do so" versus "if we take away (at least some of) the smartest and brightest, how will Afghan society evolve?"   

Given how unsafe I'm guessing Afghanistan is still going to be once NATO leaves, I'm OK with the former, given how few the numbers involved are.


----------



## Sythen (16 Sep 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> If you look over the debate running up & down this thread, two philosophies debated are "we have to take them to protect them because they helped us when it was dangerous to do so" versus "if we take away (at least some of) the smartest and brightest, how will Afghan society evolve?"
> 
> Given how unsafe I'm guessing Afghanistan is still going to be once NATO leaves, I'm OK with the former, given how few the numbers involved are.



Yes, I did skim over the previous posts and decided to add my :2c: And I will say again, why stop with the LA's? Do the ANA or AUP face any less danger?


----------



## GAP (30 Sep 2011)

Canada tries to do right thing, fails miserably
Joe O'Connor  Sep 29, 2011 Sep 
Article Link

Sometimes, say, every once in a Fall Harvest Moon, our government steps up and does something that has nothing to do with partisanship or the economy and everything to do with what is morally right and just.

That is what Jason Kenney, the Immigration and Citizenship minister, was doing in September, 2009 when he announced that Afghans who worked and risked their lives alongside Canadian soldiers in Kandahar could apply to be fast tracked for permanent residency status in Canada.

Kenney aptly cast the shiny new initiative as the “right thing to do.” And it was. And it still is. And the only problem is we didn’t do it particularly well and we are not doing it at all anymore.

The program wound down earlier this month. Two-thirds of the Afghans who applied under it were rejected. Asad (no relation to Hamid) Karzai was one of them. (You can read my article about him here).

Immigration officials expect 550 Afghan nationals to arrive beneath the initiative’s banner. My math might not be great, but if two-thirds of the applicants were rejected that means about a thousand would-be immigrants are still marooned in Afghanistan, and itching to get out.

It is a home that is not always particularly sweet for former employees of the Canadian Forces who, by nature of their employment, become marked men in the eyes of the Taliban.

They picked us, the good guys, to work for. The bad guys noticed, and they don’t forget about those who “collaborate” with the “foreigners.” They also don’t forget that the “collaborators” have families: wives, children and parents, all of whom are potential targets for intimidation and retribution and worse at the hands of insurgents.

So, what the heck happened? How could something so high-minded and nice-sounding and generously Canadian be such a sham in the end?

Simple answer: bureaucratic inflexibility. The program, sigh, was terminally flawed from its outset — no matter how good its intentions were.
More on link


----------



## jollyjacktar (30 Sep 2011)

Makes me sick at heart to think of the Terps that worked for me not getting a safe passage here.  Shamefull.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Nov 2011)

On the one hand, good on the _Toronto Star_ for advocating for this one 'terp (whose case is being brought to Federal Court):


> Blocked by Canada’s immigration minister and abandoned by the Canadian military he bravely served, a former battlefield interpreter now hopes our courts will rescue him from a Taliban vendetta. Lorne Waldman, a Toronto immigration and refugee lawyer who has successfully argued cases all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, is one of three lawyers who offered to take on Afghan Sayed Shah Sharifi’s case free of charge. Reluctantly, Sharifi is taking Waldman up on his offer. “If it can be solved without the court, it’s better, sir,” Sharifi told me Thursday from Kandahar city. “But if it isn’t, we can go to court.” Waldman plans to ask the Federal Court of Canada for a judicial review of the government’s decision to reject Sharifi’s visa application. “I think it’s outrageous that the Canadian government is — having employed someone as in interpreter in a situation that any objective observer would know would put him at risk — is now denying him the protection that he deserves,” Waldman said ....


On the other hand, we know the Taliban read the papers, so is tooooo much coverage (as they've been pressing for the last several weeks) a good thing?  I know I'm one of the first to complain about media holding back information (especially when not covering one of their own), but maybe less is more sometimes?


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Nov 2011)

_Toronto Star_ continues full-court press to get 'terp into Canada:





> From Africa, through Europe to Mexico, the U.S. and across Canada, thousands of people are joining the outcry against the Canadian government’s refusal to give an Afghan war hero safe refuge. Immigration Minister Jason Kenney says former Afghan interpreter Sayed Shah Sharifi, who was praised for his bravery on the battlefield by Canadian troops he worked alongside, doesn’t deserve a visa to escape Taliban revenge. If Prime Minister Stephen Harper needed any proof that his immigration minister’s harsh stand is embarrassing Canada in front of the world, here it is. By Sunday evening, more than 2,141 people had signed at least two online petitions, building on growing pressure from Toronto Star readers writing letters demanding Harper and Kenney help Sharifi. Lynn Hamilton, who describes herself as an activist blogger, started a campaign demanding protection for Sharifi on Care2 take action, which bills itself as the world’s number one petition site ....


Two petitions out there, actually - one here, the other here.

_- edited to add story link -_


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Nov 2011)

Ministerial direction means squat to the bureaucrats.  We've seen this before - Minister Y says something publicly, but bureaucrat X pays lip service to it.

Another example of the bureaucracy over riding the will of a Cabinet Minister.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Nov 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Ministerial direction means squat to the bureaucrats.  We've seen this before - Minister Y says something publicly, but bureaucrat X pays lip service to it.
> 
> Another example of the bureaucracy over riding the will of a Cabinet Minister.


If the TorStar is to be believed, though, the (Immigration) bureaucrats are doing what the (Immigration) Minister wants.  It's just that they're not doing with the (Defence) Minister may want.

If I were a reporter, I'd ask the Defence Minister the question, "What can you do to ensure interpreter Sayed Shah Sharifi can come to Canada?" to see what he has to say.  Hell, ask the boss of both Ministers, the PM, the question and see what's said.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> If I were a reporter, I'd ask the Defence Minister the question, "What can you do to ensure interpreter Sayed Shah Sharifi can come to Canada?" to see what he has to say.  Hell, *ask the boss of both Ministers, the PM, the question and see what's said*.


According to TorStar, we may have an answer of sorts.....





> More than 100 Afghan citizens who put their lives on the line to help Canada’s Afghanistan mission are getting a second chance to resettle here.
> 
> The Prime Minister’s Office has quietly ordered the federal immigration department to review the cases of Afghan citizens who helped Canadian diplomats and soldiers in Kandahar and Kabul — often at great personal risk — but were snubbed in their bids to come to Canada, the Star has learned.
> 
> ...


_Toronto Star_, 6 Feb 12


----------



## ttlbmg (6 Feb 2012)

I do find it interesting that one of the main arguments for not bringing these people over is that "we" are taking people away from Afghanistan thatwould be capable of building up their country. I know of, and have heard many stories of, many Afghan citizens that have immigrated to the country, and have then turned around and gone back to the country as an interpreter, still working for their country. Who is to say that some of the men and women coming into Canada won't then have the access to greater education, or education for their children, then take what they have learned and go back to help their countrymen, armed with new knowledge and skills? Call me the wide-eyed idealist. Some will jump at the chance of a life in Canada, some will stay to ensure that their country is going in a positive direction. One can only hope that the "good intentions" of the Canadian federal government will lead to bringing come courageous and brave people to safety, and giving others the option to work on making their country a better place. 

There's my bubbly optimism for the day!


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2012)

> ….Members of the Canadian Armed Forces and diplomatic missions routinely rely on local interpreters and cultural guides when deployed in foreign lands, often in environments no more welcoming to Westerners than Afghanistan. If Canada wishes to continue to find willing locals when it sends troops or diplomats abroad, it must ensure that its reputation as a reliable partner remains intact. To do otherwise could endanger the lives of personnel on future missions, not to mention the successful outcomes of the missions themselves. That means a fair deal for Afghans, free of arbitrary cutoffs and needless red tape.


_National Post_, 13 Feb 12


----------



## Redeye (13 Feb 2012)

ttlbmg said:
			
		

> I do find it interesting that one of the main arguments for not bringing these people over is that "we" are taking people away from Afghanistan thatwould be capable of building up their country. I know of, and have heard many stories of, many Afghan citizens that have immigrated to the country, and have then turned around and gone back to the country as an interpreter, still working for their country. Who is to say that some of the men and women coming into Canada won't then have the access to greater education, or education for their children, then take what they have learned and go back to help their countrymen, armed with new knowledge and skills? Call me the wide-eyed idealist. Some will jump at the chance of a life in Canada, some will stay to ensure that their country is going in a positive direction. One can only hope that the "good intentions" of the Canadian federal government will lead to bringing come courageous and brave people to safety, and giving others the option to work on making their country a better place.
> 
> There's my bubbly optimism for the day!



I had, in my day job as a financial planner, a few clients who were Afghans, who had come to Canada at various points in history, some in the 1980s, some in the 1990s, and a few even more recently than that. They had worked hard in Canada to build a life for their families, but there was something interesting about a lot of them. They were all looking for ways to contribute to the rebuilding and redevelopment of their homeland. One family even returned. They had an immense sense of gratitude for what Canada had given them, and took their knowledge and skills back to their homeland when they saw an opportunity. Taking a relatively small number of people out of the country where there is a reasonable risk to them doesn't really mean they'll never go back to make a difference, it may actually set them up to make more of one.


----------



## jollyjacktar (27 Mar 2012)

I just received an email from my head Terp.  He tells me he has arrived and settled out west with his family.  I am so very friggin pleased to see him safe here and knowing that we have done right by him and his wife.   :nod:


----------



## GAP (27 Mar 2012)

sweet


----------



## jollyjacktar (27 Mar 2012)

Yes it is, so very sweet to hear this.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Apr 2012)

> Dozens of interpreters who served as Canada's voice during the war in Kandahar, but then met silence when they tried to immigrate here, are now being allowed in.
> 
> Over 500 people applied under a special program set up in 2009 by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney to recognize "Afghans who face extraordinary personal risk as a result of their work in support of Canada's mission in Kandahar."
> 
> ...


The Canadian Press, 20 Apr 12


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Jun 2012)

.... from CBC


> A former Afghan interpreter for the Canadian Forces now living in Ottawa has re-established contact with soldiers he helped during the war in Afghanistan.
> 
> Mohammad Rahman was no usual interpreter, according to soldiers who worked alongside him. Rahman carried a gun and medical emergency kit and was able to tie a tourniquet and administer an IV.
> 
> ...


----------



## jollyjacktar (6 Jun 2012)

That's awesome for Froggy and Maj.  Campbell.  I'm sure they are both as delighted to re-establish contact now that Froggy's safe as I was with my head Terp, AJ.  At least and last we've done right by some of these men.


----------



## leftcoastjumper (23 Jun 2012)

Hello All,

One of my interpreters from my last tour just immigrated to Canada and is interested in a job translating (Daari and Pashto) for the CF in or out of Canada. Does anyone have any idea of any opportunities for guys like him? Thanks,

LCJ


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Jun 2012)

I know this isn't much help, but I wanted to say it anyway.

Most of the Terps, we had over there, should be employed teaching our university kids how to speak English.

Thanks for the venue.  

On a serious note, I had an Afghan gentleman, that immigrated here, start as a volunteer at an Immigrant Help Centre. He was then in my office for awhile on a work program and ended up with a job working for the Ontario gov't.

Little steps, a solid work ethic, a willingness to help always and volunteer work is what got him noticed and hired.


----------



## noneck (23 Jun 2012)

Great topic, one of my Interpreters just arrived in T.O. I'd love to be able to steer him towards a starter job, so that he can begin to enjoy the dream! Great kid, left his entire family back in Kabul to come over here for a chance at a better life. Decorated by the Yanks as well for valour.


----------



## jollyjacktar (30 Jul 2012)

Another has made it safely to Canada!!!   



> Afghan interpreter arrives in Canada
> Published on Sunday July 29, 2012  Paul Watson  Staff reporter
> 
> The agonizing years of worrying that the Taliban would get him before he could get to Canada are over.  Sayed Shah Sharifi, a former combat interpreter for Canadian forces in Kandahar, arrived in Toronto from Afghanistan Sunday, ending a more than two-year fight to reach safety in Canada.
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jan 2016)

Some of the latest ...


> As Canada opens its doors to thousands of Syrian refugees, a young Afghan man who says he risked his life to help Canadians fears he’s been left behind to face a certain death.
> 
> Sajad Kazemi says he worked as an interpreter with the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan, but missed the visa process offered to linguists. Now he claims he’s been left behind and hopeless in Kabul, awaiting a certain fate.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Jan 2016)

One more a step closer to making it here ...


> After lots of pain, worry and danger, it appears all James Akam’s dreams are coming true.
> 
> The interpreter who risked his life serving with our troops in Afghanistan has been granted permission to come to Canada!
> 
> ...


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Jan 2016)

Excellent news to read.  I hope that more Terps who want to come here are able to.  As far as I'm concerned, they're earned passage.


----------



## Kat Stevens (24 Jan 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Excellent news to read.  I hope that more Terps who want to come here are able to.  As far as I'm concerned, they're earned passage.



If you ask me, they should have been allocated the first ten rows on the first "new Canadians" flight to land here.


----------



## PuckChaser (24 Jan 2016)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> If you ask me, they should have been allocated the first ten rows on the first "new Canadians" flight to land here.



They didn't have an Alan Kurdi to be on the front page of the news. Press coverage = political attention


----------



## ModlrMike (24 Jan 2016)

To my mind they've done more for this country than most Canadians ever will.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Jan 2016)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> If you ask me, they should have been allocated the first ten rows on the first "new Canadians" flight to land here.


It's not like previous governments didn't have a chance to do more - let's see how this government handles them, even though the "official" program's over.


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Jan 2016)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> If you ask me, they should have been allocated the first ten rows on the first "new Canadians" flight to land here.



Damn skippy.  :nod:


----------



## hibiny (18 Feb 2016)

I heard that Russia sent its troops to the border of Tajikistan and Afghanistan


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2016)

hibiny said:
			
		

> I heard that Russia sent its troops to the border of Tajikistan and Afghanistan


Хорошая попытка, друг - запрещенный!  ;D

*Milnet.ca Staff/Milnet.ca Персонал*


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Mar 2016)

Tick, tick, tick ...


> Immigration Minister John McCallum has not only said that James Akam — an Afghan interpreter who assisted Canadian troops for three years — can come to Canada, but insisted he was “pleased” to make it happen.
> 
> That was Jan. 22 and Akam is still not here.
> 
> ...


----------



## GAP (17 Apr 2016)

Interpreter James Akam reunites with brother
joe-warmington  By Joe Warmington, Toronto Sun 
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/04/16/interpreter-james-akam-reunites-with-brother

James Akam can now check “Enjoy a Molson Canadian” off his patriotic to-do list.

Add that to the Tim Hortons coffee he had after landing at Pearson airport Friday and his phone chat with hockey legend Don Cherry moments later.

The 29-year-old former interpreter who risked his life alongside our troops in his native Afghanistan is getting a handle on this whole Life in Canada thing.

“I definitely feel free,” James said during his first full day in Canada.

We had lunch at a Moxie’s restaurant in Mississauga and reflected on all that’s happened to him since he fled Afghanistan more than a year ago with hopes of building a better life for his family.

Thanks to Canada, he said, “I made it here and now I just have to hope that my application to bring my wife and son from Afghanistan will be processed quickly.”

It needs to be. His wife and five-year-old boy are still hiding from the Taliban.

His brother Nick, also a former interpreter who worked with Canada’s troops in Afghanistan, arrived from Calgary Saturday afternoon. He drove all night from Marathon, Ont., 1,100 km away on the north shore of Lake Superior, to see James for the first time in six years.

The brothers wasted little time before talking about what’s next for James.

“I may be going to Calgary or I may stay in Toronto. We are going to meet with some people on Monday and whatever city has the most job opportunities is where I will likely stay,” James said. “My brother loves Calgary and is doing well there, but I know that there may be more employment here, so we’ll see how it works out. Either way, I’m in Canada and I’m happy about that.”
More on link


----------



## jollyjacktar (17 Apr 2016)

Damn, that's a good news story to read about.  Makes me feel very happy to see.   Too bad you don't see anything about it on the Communist Broadcasting Corporation website.


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Apr 2016)

He'll wait a year for his family, when we can bring in 25,000 Syrians in 3 months to fulfill a political promise, instead of honouring a moral obligation to help someone and their family who helped us.


----------



## George Wallace (17 Apr 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> He'll wait a year for his family, when we can bring in 25,000 Syrians in 3 months to fulfill a political promise, instead of honouring a moral obligation to help someone and their family who helped us.



Your sentiments are felt by many, here on army.ca and on other forums and media.  

The Liberal agenda here is a total failure.  The 25K that they have brought in already have so overloaded the various support systems in place, that the increase in numbers will prove to be DISASTROUS......But that is for that other thread dedicated to that very topic.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Apr 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> He'll wait a year for his family, when we can bring in 25,000 Syrians in 3 months to fulfill a political promise, instead of honouring a moral obligation to help someone and their family who helped us.


Yeah - it's a shame so many of them were turned away earlier on...


> Dozens of interpreters who served as Canada's voice during the war in Kandahar, but then met silence when they tried to immigrate here, are now being allowed in.
> 
> More than 500 people applied under a special program set up in 2009 by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney to recognize “Afghans who face extraordinary personal risk as a result of their work in support of Canada's mission in Kandahar.”
> 
> But two-thirds of those who applied were turned away by the time the program closed (September 2011) because the government said they didn't meet the qualifications ...


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Apr 2016)

Yeah, not a single party owns this, we screwed these people as a nation. I'd love to see the "qualifications" they required, its not like most of them could print off a CV or carry around reference letters from Canadian Sect Comd's....


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Apr 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Yeah, not a single party owns this, we screwed these people as a nation.


Too true   - the last mob had a chance to do it better, so let's see if this mob can do any better ...


----------



## dapaterson (5 May 2016)

Froggy has received his Canadian citizenship.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/afghan-interpreter-mohammad-froggy-rahman-canadian-citizenship-1.3562801


----------



## Journeyman (5 May 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Froggy has received his Canadian citizenship.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/afghan-interpreter-mohammad-froggy-rahman-canadian-citizenship-1.3562801


If we swapped him for Steve Nolan, we're definitely ahead on the deal.    >


----------



## jollyjacktar (5 May 2016)

Very happy to read that.  What the UK is doing is shameful.  UK Deporting Terps


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Aug 2016)

Yup -- shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)_ ...


> *Feds must help Afghan interpreters who worked with Canadian troops *
> 
> For the brave Afghan interpreters who served Canada with valour, I hate to break the bad news.
> 
> ...


----------



## jollyjacktar (14 Aug 2016)

Shameful, absolutely shameful of both the Conservatives and Liberals to not see the Terps done right by.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Aug 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Shameful, absolutely shameful of both the Conservatives and Liberals to not see the Terps done right by.



Easy fix now for the current government, but there's no photo ops in it. If we can bring 25k people in here in 3 months with a short vetting process, we can get 1 planeload of pers here in a week considering what they've done for us.


----------



## sandyson (14 Aug 2016)

The argument that we should not help the interpreters come to Canada because it would deprive Afghanistan of valuable talent is not consistent with Canada's policy of seeking only those people from other countries in immigration screening.  e.g. unrecognized foreign qualified engineers and doctors etc. come here and do menial tasks.
In order to get some of those left behind over here, there will have to be a focus on individuals, families and conditions.  A name--even if coded, can have associations made with it.  A bunch of people on the other hand remain just that: a bunch, gray, without boundaries or emotion.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Sep 2016)

And so we continue to wait ...


> They are the forgotten.
> 
> Not by us, but by government, it seems.
> 
> ...


Since Team Blue didn't seem to get it, one hopes SOMEONE is briefing Team Red that how we treat people who helped our troops on the ground in the past will shape the decisions of those who might be able to help our troops on the ground (or not) in the future.


----------



## jollyjacktar (6 Sep 2016)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And so we continue to wait ...Since Team Blue didn't seem to get it, one hopes SOMEONE is briefing Team Red that how we treat people who helped our troops on the ground in the past will shape the decisions of those who might be able to help our troops on the ground (or not) in the future.



I have almost ZERO faith in team Blue Red to do anything other than repeatedly shit the bed, overspend and dither.  I fear they will fail us too on this issue in the end.  (no good photo ops or UN good will to mine)

Thank you, good catch.   :-[    However, team Blue shit the bed on this one too and should hang their respective heads in shame evermore.


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Sep 2016)

You mean team red, jjt? Blue already crapped the bed on this issue.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Sep 2016)

Sadly, no shortage of bed shitting on this one


----------



## dapaterson (29 Jan 2017)

And, under the new US policy, their terps are being turned away:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/29/iraq-trump-travel-ban-service-america



> Hayder accompanied US forces on highly dangerous patrols in Diyala and Salahuddin provinces from 2007 to 2010. He was one of the interpreters – often just called “terps” by soldiers and marines – on whom the US war effort relied, not only to communicate with locals but to identify threats.
> 
> Now, he feels the US is not interested in drawing that distinction. “I know that executive order [is] just racist,” Hayder said of Trump’s immigration ban.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Apr 2017)

Here we go again ...


> “Disappointing” and “unacceptable.”
> 
> That’s how federal Conservative leadership candidate Erin O’Toole describes the “terrible” response from Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen to an Afghan interpreter’s fear of assassination for serving Canada’s troops.
> 
> ...


----------



## jollyjacktar (17 Apr 2017)

As I feared, Team Red will do sweet fuck all to help these Terps.  Sadly, I am not the least bit surprised at their lack of action.  Neither team has honoured promises made.  I'm embarrassed by them both.  Didn't Mr. O'Toole press the issue when was on the other side of the house?  Making noise from opposition when you failed to do so before is just as bad as those you're pointing fingers at.


----------



## PuckChaser (17 Apr 2017)

Tories screwed the pooch originally by just simply not doing anything, but I think its significantly worse when you campaign on being welcoming (and fast-tracking 50,000 Syrians) while snubbing your nose at these folks who did a great service to our country.

Much like Defense spending and VAC, all parties are to blame, but no one has the testicular fortitude to admit fault and fix it.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Apr 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Much like Defense spending and VAC, all parties are to blame, but no one has the testicular fortitude to admit fault and fix it.


 :nod:


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Apr 2017)

The terps are most likely getting the cold shoulder because it's unlikely that they're future good Liberal voters.


----------



## Edward Campbell (18 Apr 2017)

I _suspect_ that many pose a dilemma for soldiers, officials and politicians. This is, _I think_, the first time we have seen a situation in which the "qualification" for entry into Canada is that one served as a contracted employee. My _guess_ is that many, even most of the 'terps' would be unqualified for entry to Canada as immigrants or refugees under the existing rules. The question is probably being asked: where does it end? who else might demand to be pushed to the front of the immigration line for some reason or another.

Let's all agree that 'terps' were vital and that they are now in some danger because of what they did for us ... but was their salary not sufficient to compensate them for that? That's what salaries are supposed to do, after all.

I don't have a dog in this fight but I _think_ it is not simple hard-heartedness or partisan politics. I _suspect_ there may be some legitimate questions that should be asked.


----------



## jollyjacktar (18 Apr 2017)

Perhaps for future, ER, but promises were made to these men.  Unlike the people sneaking across the border or earlier being flown in in droves, these men served us, undoubtedly made our troops safer and are now at risk of harm because of their association with us and I do believe some have even lost their lives.  Exemptions can always be granted to "qualifications" needed or variations created, the government does it all the time to the rules it imposes.  I don't believe partisanship comes into it at all, if anything it's hard-heartedness and not wanting to see things done (for whatever reason).  As far as I am concerned, it is shameful that we are not honouring our promises made in this instance.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 Apr 2017)

Any indigenous population that supports a foreign power always gets the shaft when the war ends.  Just look at all the African soldiers that fought for South Africa, Portugal, France, Etc  in the small wars of Colonial Succession.  Left on their own at the end of hostilities, with many killed by the governments that came after.

How many Afghans were given the false promise of citizenship while working as agents?  I'd imagine quite a few, we won't know for another 40+ years when the war files finally become declassified and anyone who cares is long dead.


----------



## Kat Stevens (18 Apr 2017)

These people contributed more to Canada without ever setting eyes on the place than the majority of the economic migrants that cross the border illegally ever will.


----------



## Lightguns (18 Apr 2017)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> These people contributed more to Canada without ever setting eyes on the place than the majority of the economic migrants that cross the border illegally ever will.



Likely than a one third of Canadians as well but neither blue team nor red team has carried through on a national promise. Orange team doesn't care just like the majority of Canadians.  There was a 1000s of Vietnamese who stood in front of the gates of their US embassy watching the last chopper leave that can commensurate.  I would be very leery of assisting a foreign army in my country ever, no manner how much they are the good guys.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Jun 2019)

The latest case, only this time, trying to move here from the U.S. ...


> Canadian war veteran Micheal Rude who fought in Afghanistan waited for an important arrival at Victoria International Airport Friday morning, but the Afghan man who used to interpret for him on the battlefield never arrived.
> 
> “I was sitting in my truck crying in the parking lot,” said Michael Rude.
> 
> ...


More in another local media story here.

*** - Andrew Eykelenboom is credited with saving this guy's life in Afghanistan (_Globe & Mail_, July 2008).


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Jun 2019)

But if you’re a former or current IS player our PM rolls out the red carpet.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2019)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Huzaifa_al-Kanadi


> In 2018, he said in a podcast on The New York Times website that he murdered two people while fighting for ISIS


----------



## Cloud Cover (9 Jun 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Huzaifa_al-Kanadi



PM inbound.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Jun 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> But if you’re a former or current IS player  likely to help the Liberal party in the next election, our PM rolls out the red carpet.



There, FTFY


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Aug 2021)

Took a while (too long?), but bumping this (also in case some want this discussion on this issue in one place) with some photos from the Info-machine of the latest Op AEGIS stuff (source:  various CF FB posts here, here, here and here)


----------



## Rifleman62 (13 Aug 2021)

How many are out of Afghanistan?  Last I heard it was secret. Bet they failed.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Aug 2021)

What is the metric for failure?


----------



## Rifleman62 (13 Aug 2021)

They were not all,or most evacuated.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Aug 2021)

Who’s “they?”

What’s the baseline listing of who is eligible, from which a delta/didn’t get out, is calculated?

I don’t think the math is a simple as you imply above.


----------



## Rifleman62 (13 Aug 2021)

They: former Afghan interpreters and their families. I have NO idea how many. Time is getting very short to complete the evacuation.









						Ottawa ministers vow to bring 20,000 Afghan refugees to safety
					

Priority will go to those most in danger, including women leaders, human-rights advocates and families of interpreters already in Canada




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




Ottawa faces calls to speed up rescues from Afghanistan as special forces deploy to Kabul - 13 Aug 21​The Canadian government is facing urgent calls to speed up its effort to save hundreds of former Afghan interpreters and their families as Western countries step up plans to evacuate Afghanistan after 20 years of war.

Canada is among those preparing to leave, with revelations late Thursday that the government is deploying special forces troops to help evacuate the embassy in Kabul.

Those revelations are sparking alarm and confusion among Canadian veterans and others who have been working to save hundreds of Afghans who supported Canada over the years and are now at risk of Taliban retribution.

One of those calling for more speed is retired major-general Denis Thompson, who previously commanded Canadian troops in Afghanistan and was one of three former two-star generals who wrote a letter last month urging Ottawa to save the interpreters.

Thompson says while he is grateful that the government agreed to expedite the resettlement of Afghans who supported Canada, he is frustrated by the pace of the effort and the lack of information from officials.

The Taliban have moved with stunning speed in capturing large swaths of Afghanistan in recent weeks, and there have been numerous reports of targeted killings and attacks on civilians.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Aug 2021)

My point remains that to throw out a wager that “they failed” against no explicit metric to which failure can be attributed is a meaningless wager. 


Rifleman62 said:


> How many are out of Afghanistan?  Last I heard it was secret. Bet they failed.


If there are Afghans who applied to the Canadian rescue program and were accepted, but don’t make it out because egress is no longer possible, then one could at least say that they have been failed.

Perhaps best to not confuse the best efforts of domestic agencies and CDN diplo staff on the ground in AFG trying to get all the rescuees contact info, biometrics and documentation, with the higher-level political leaders who have dithered and not filtered out unreasonable black/white limitations/constraints on the terps and their families?


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> ... Perhaps best to not confuse the best efforts of domestic agencies and CDN diplo staff on the ground in AFG trying to get all the rescuees contact info, biometrics and documentation, with the higher-level political leaders who have dithered and not filtered out unreasonable black/white limitations/constraints on the terps and their families?


Remember where the buck stops, indeed.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Remember where the buck stops, indeed.


Dare I hope…. 😔


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Aug 2021)

Whoa. How will we be able to extract 20,000 people before the Taliban kill them all?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/afghanistan-resettlement-program-aug13-1.6140599


----------



## Rifleman62 (14 Aug 2021)

Is max passenger capacity of a C-117 approx 188? To evacuate 20,000 would be 106 loads.


----------



## Remius (14 Aug 2021)

Rifleman62 said:


> Is max passenger capacity of a C-117 approx 188? To evacuate 20,000 would be 106 loads.


Assuming they are all coming via C117.  There are other options being used as well.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Aug 2021)

Rifleman62 said:


> Is max passenger capacity of a C-117 approx 188? To evacuate 20,000 would be 106 loads.


As someone who's spent the last 3 weeks just tracking the numbers of ~3,000 people flying out of relatively hard-to-get-to communities to a variety of different places in Ontario - where nobody's fighting a war - I don't think it's as simple as that.  I can only guess it would be a *lot* more complicated getting that many people out of someplace that's (assuming Kabul-Toronto) +10,000K km away in a LOT more messy circumstances.  
_Especially_ when it seems to have struck the political good-idea fairies as a good plan so late in the game.

Nice idea - would have been nicer before the Taliban were hanging their "Mission Accomplished" signs in Pashto here and there - so let's see how it unfolds ....


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Aug 2021)

Devils advocate. 

What will removing 20,000 women leaders, human rights defenders, journalists, persecuted religious minorities spell for Afghanistan?

One of the rallying calls we heard over and over was that we were helping women in Afghanistan. Making it a better place for young girls and young women.

So what will Afghanistan look like with the women leaders and human rights defenders gone?  Is it callous to suggest Afghanis need to deal with the Taliban on their own, if they want change.

Will taking away educated and moderate people from their society make it even worse for the people remaining?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (14 Aug 2021)

I hate to state it this baldly, Jarnhamar, but those women leaders, human rights defenders, journalists and persecuted religious minority would be gone one way or another  - better that it be our way rather than the Taliban's.

I do wholeheartedly agree with you that if the Afghanis don't want the Taliban, they have to deal with them on their own - but it would be bloody as you would basically need a complete revolt of the population against a small heavily armed group that usually doesn't take no for an answer and believes that killing is no big deal since the victims are either going to Allah or straight to hell where they were heading anyway, and that life on earth is just a small passage that doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Aug 2021)

The executions we are about to witness will rival …, I don’t have a comparison to quote. It will be bloody and very public


----------



## Altair (14 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Devils advocate.
> 
> What will removing 20,000 women leaders, human rights defenders, journalists, persecuted religious minorities spell for Afghanistan?
> 
> ...


To reiterate what Oldgateboatdriver said, either they are out of Afghanistan alive in Canada, or they are dead in Afghanistan, either way Afghan society will not be having their influence much longer.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The executions we are about to witness will rival …, I don’t have a comparison to quote. It will be bloody and very public



“May God keep you away from the venom of the cobra, the teeth of the tiger, and the revenge of the Afghans.”​— Alexander the Great


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> ... What will removing 20,000 women leaders, human rights defenders, journalists, persecuted religious minorities spell for Afghanistan?
> 
> One of the rallying calls we heard over and over was that we were helping women in Afghanistan. Making it a better place for young girls and young women.
> 
> So what will Afghanistan look like with the women leaders and human rights defenders gone?  Is it callous to suggest Afghanis need to deal with the Taliban on their own, if they want change ...


*Very* good point, especially since that was part of the argument against pulling even more people out of Afghanistan earlier on in the fight.

Which is better, though:  opposition in exile***, or videos of people being killed with English subtitles saying, "See what a good job you did protecting them?" and local language narration saying "see what happens when you trust outsiders to help you out?"

*** - Realizing, of course, that some oppositions-in-exile are more effective and less splintery/infighting-y than others


OldSolduer said:


> The executions we are about to witness will rival …, I don’t have a comparison to quote. It will be bloody and very public


Yup - and social media-y, too.


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> *Very* good point, especially since that was part of the argument against pulling even more people out of Afghanistan earlier on in the fight.
> 
> Which is better, though:  opposition in exile***, or videos of people being killed with English subtitles saying, "See what a good job you did protecting them?" and local language narration saying "see what happens when you trust outsiders to help you out?"
> 
> ...



Apparently, it begins.









						Ex-Royal Marine shares picture of friends 'all executed outside homes'
					

A FORMER Royal Marines Commando has shared a heartbreaking picture on social media of Afghans he was with earlier this year who were "all executed outside their homes in Kandahar on Thursday".




					www.express.co.uk
				




The story sounds plausible but it is, in my opinion, undermined by the photo.  The photo "feels" a bit photo-shoppy.  

I don't doubt the terror on the ground or the real need to pull out the interpreters and their familiies.  That should have happened long ago, once the decision to pull out was obvious.  

It is just that in this gray world I don't know much of anything anymore.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Aug 2021)

Roll credits...

Taliban enter Kabul, president reportedly flees Afghanistan​U.S. Embassy being evacuated; insurgents control all border crossings in country​
Taliban surround Kabul after capturing Jalalabad​
Taliban fighters entered Kabul and sought the unconditional surrender of the central government, officials said, as Afghans and foreigners alike raced for the exit, signalling the end of a 20-year Western experiment aimed at remaking Afghanistan. 10:54

Afghanistan's embattled president left the country on Sunday, joining his fellow citizens and foreigners in a stampede fleeing the advancing Taliban and signalling the end of a 20-year Western experiment aimed at remaking Afghanistan.

The Taliban, which for hours had been on the outskirts of Kabul, announced soon after they would move further into a city gripped by panic throughout the day, as helicopters raced overhead to evacuate personnel from the U.S. Embassy.

Smoke rose near the compound as staff destroyed important documents. Several other Western missions also prepared to pull out their people.
Civilians fearing that the Taliban could reimpose the kind of brutal rule that all but eliminated women's rights rushed to leave the country as well, lining up at cash machines to withdraw their life savings. The desperately poor — who had left homes in the countryside for the hoped-for safety in the capital — remained in the thousands in parks and open spaces throughout the city.

President Ashraf Ghani flew out of the country, two officials told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to brief journalists. Abdullah Abdullah, head of the Afghan National Reconciliation Council, later confirmed in an online video that Ghani had left.

"The former president of Afghanistan left Afghanistan, leaving the country in this difficult situation," Abdullah said. "God should hold him accountable."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/taliban-jalalabad-1.6141568


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Aug 2021)

Oops.  Sorry. Wrong movie.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Aug 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> View attachment 66033
> 
> Oops.  Sorry. Wrong movie.


Not zackly, but of a kind ...


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Not zackly, but of a kind ...
> View attachment 66035


“History never repeats itself, but it does often rhyme.”  Mark Twain.


----------



## Kirkhill (15 Aug 2021)

Lessons Learned from Saigon.

"Next time we get a bigger helicopter".


----------



## Rifleman62 (15 Aug 2021)

Ex-Royal Marine shares picture of friends 'all executed outside homes'
					

A FORMER Royal Marines Commando has shared a heartbreaking picture on social media of Afghans he was with earlier this year who were "all executed outside their homes in Kandahar on Thursday".




					www.express.co.uk
				






> UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson set to recall Parliament this week from its summer recess for an emergency session to discuss the situation.


Trudeau calls an election.

No way at this stage is everyone we want out can be "processed" and evacuated. What process did the 20,000 Syrians go through?

You can bet the number Afghanistan evacuees will be kept secret.


----------



## dimsum (15 Aug 2021)

Rifleman62 said:


> No way at this stage is everyone we want out can be "processed" and evacuated. What process did the 20,000 Syrians go through?


It's also a bit tough when the Canadian embassy has suspended operations.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-embassy-afghanistan-taliban-1.6141674


----------



## brihard (15 Aug 2021)

The situation has been degrading hourly. I don’t think there are any more flights out for locals. They’re on their own.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> It's also a bit tough when the Canadian embassy has suspended operations.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-embassy-afghanistan-taliban-1.6141674



Is that Jared Leto?


----------



## ballz (15 Aug 2021)

If Afghani's were provided with the means to defend themselves, would they revolt again the Taliban?


----------



## Altair (15 Aug 2021)

ballz said:


> If Afghani's were provided with the means to defend themselves, would they revolt again the Taliban?


If history is any guide, with or without outside assistance, individual regions will splinter off and declare themselves free of centralized rule.

Afghanistan is more reminiscent of what the holy Roman empire used to be, a bunch of independent little fiefdoms that sometimes pledge loyalty to idea of Afghanistan, and sometimes do not.


----------



## dimsum (15 Aug 2021)

ballz said:


> If Afghani's were provided with the means to defend themselves, would they revolt again the Taliban?


Wait...I've seen this before...


----------



## CBH99 (16 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> The situation has been degrading hourly. I don’t think there are any more flights out for locals. They’re on their own.


It went from “There are concerns they may attack Kabul within 30 days” to “Off we go, sorry whoever we left behind!” in less than 24hrs.  

Insane.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Aug 2021)

The politicians and diplomats underestimate the enemies ability to plan ahead and develop the battle space. I would not doubt that various generals and intel types warned them months if not a year ago what was happening, but it would fall on deaf ears. Ironic justice would be to get the terps, State Department guards out and leave the State department people to negotiate their way out.....


----------



## Maxman1 (16 Aug 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> Lessons Learned from Saigon.
> 
> "Next time we get a bigger helicopter".



Like this?


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> It went from “There are concerns they may attack Kabul within 30 days” to “Off we go, sorry whoever we left behind!” in less than 24hrs.
> 
> Insane.


From 30 days to about 30 hours. It’s a travesty, I’m at a loss for words.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Aug 2021)

1975
_____

2021


----------



## dimsum (16 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> 1975
> _____
> 
> 2021
> ...


To clarify, in the 2021 picture, the Chinook was flying somewhere and they got the pic, not that it was evacuating people from that rooftop.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> To clarify, in the 2021 picture, the Chinook was flying somewhere and they got the pic, not that it was evacuating people from that rooftop.


Yes, it’s circling around US Embassy (that’s the Wazir Akbar Khan hill behind it (of ‘The Kite Runner’ book fame).  Helos can land inside the fence, behind and north of the building in the photo, just beside the tennis courts.

I don’t believe there will be any rooftop evacuation, at least not the Americans.


----------



## ballz (16 Aug 2021)

Doesn't really seem like it can be characterized as an attack on Kabul. Sounds like everyone abandoned post and the Taliban just walked on in...


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Aug 2021)

Next time someone goes on about how competent the current governments are, I'll be thinking about this.

I had figured that the templated solutions for evacuating friends and allies would have advanced past sh!t-show, but apparently not yet.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Aug 2021)

ballz said:


> If Afghani's were provided with the means to defend themselves, would they revolt again the Taliban?


At the risk of being cynical at a shitty time, if years of training and transferring arms/equipment to Afghan forces has led to *this* outcome ...  

I wonder how much of this is urban-rural divide.  I stand to be corrected, but I suspect folks living in rural areas may already be far more conservative than those in urban areas, which means some of the rural folks may not mind a bit of the Taliban's flavour of law and order.  That, and whatever happened with the security forces, leading to the steamrollering-in of Taliban 2.0?  Happy to hear from those more familiar with the demographic landscape.


----------



## dimsum (16 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> At the risk of being cynical at a shitty time, if years of training and transferring arms/equipment to Afghan forces has led to *this* outcome ...
> 
> I wonder how much of this is urban-rural divide.  I stand to be corrected, but I suspect folks living in rural areas may already be far more conservative than those in urban areas, which means some of the rural folks may not mind a bit of the Taliban's flavour of law and order.  That, and whatever happened with the security forces, leading to the steamrollering-in of Taliban 2.0?  Happy to hear from those more familiar with the demographic landscape.


I'm not that much more familiar, but from reading other posts, it might not be so much an "urban/rural" as a tribal divide.  From what I've read, the people identify with their tribe/ethnicity, then perhaps the nation as a whole.  So, for example, southern Pashtuns wouldn't care so much what happens to the Tajiks in the north.  

Realistically, the "nation" of Afghanistan is a bit of a misnomer given how the country was really governed (ie. the central govt in Kabul really didn't have that much power outside their immediate area).


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Aug 2021)

I wonder if the Taliban took a page out of Ghengis Khan's playbook. You know, raze a village, rape all the women and girls, then slaughter all. Then move on to the next village and say "See what happened to village X for resisting us?"


----------



## dimsum (16 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I wonder if the Taliban took a page out of Ghengis Khan's playbook. You know, raze a village, rape all the women and girls, then slaughter all. Then move on to the next village and say "See what happened to village X for resisting us?"


They totally did.  Although the razing/raping was after they were given a chance to surrender.


----------



## Altair (16 Aug 2021)

If there is any consolidation,  I think the taliban have made a massive strategic blunder.

They have orchestrated a largely bloodless takeover of Afghanistan bur in doing so have laid the seeds of their coming headaches.

Most of the fighting aged males, most of the Afghan army is alive, and once these men start making their way back to their villages will likely be amongst the first groups to take issue with the way the taliban are running things.

The Afghan army may not have been worth it as a standing army to face the taliban  but will likely make a good source of recruits for those warlords who will grow tired of the taliban in due time.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> If there is any consolidation,  I think the taliban have made a *massive strategic blunder*.
> 
> They have orchestrated a largely bloodless takeover of Afghanistan bur in doing so have laid the seeds of their coming headaches.
> 
> ...



Seriously?

This terrible disaster (for the West and moderate Afghans) has been a demonstration of multi-level strategic offensive skill the likes of which has rarely been seen in recent history. Parallels with the Fall of Saigon are pretty apt, IMHO.

As a result, my guess is that those warlords are probably already on board already... or dead.


----------



## Czech_pivo (16 Aug 2021)

Pakistan is the real winner here - they've completely secured their western flank.  Look to them to create more trouble for India in Kashmir shortly.


----------



## Altair (16 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Seriously?
> 
> This terrible disaster (for the West and moderate Afghans) has been a demonstration of multi-level strategic offensive skill the likes of which has rarely been seen in recent history. Parallels with the Fall of Saigon are pretty apt, IMHO.
> 
> As a result, my guess is that those warlords are probably already on board already... or dead.


It's a disaster,  but I don't see the taliban being able to control the entire nation for long.

The same factors that worked against the west and the soviets work against them as well.

Toss in countless former military members not killed on the battlefield and allowed to return to their villages? At some point regions are going to start breaking away.

Afghanistan. Easy to conquer, impossible to rule.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Aug 2021)

Just in case you needed some more tragic imagery...

*Afghans cling to USAF C-17 during American evacuation, fall to their death*


Kabul — Desperation reigned at Kabul’s airport on Monday, a day after the Afghan capital was taken by Islamist Taliban militants, as those hoping to flee the country crowded in and sought to get on any flight that would take them.

According to witnesses and social media transmissions, hundreds of people have been at the airport since Sunday, sometimes jumping turnstiles and trying to force their way onto departing aeroplanes. Some of those seeking to depart weren’t even in possession of a passport.

There have also been reports of deaths at the airport and, earlier, of US forces firing warning shots as they try to organize the evacuation of US personnel from the country US forces occupied in 2001.


Afghans cling to USAF C-17 during American evacuation, fall to their death


----------



## Infanteer (16 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> It's a disaster,  but I don't see the taliban being able to control the entire nation for long.



You're likely not wrong.









						Warlord Abdul Rashid Dostum back in the fray as Taliban overwhelm Afghan north
					

The warlord's prominence in the latest fight with the Taliban lays bare the long-simmering conundrum facing President Ashraf Ghani's administration, which has struggled with on-again, off-again relationships with Afghanistan's ubiquitous strongmen.




					m.economictimes.com
				




Dostum will soon likely make his move.  He is getting old though, but another Masood may rise.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Aug 2021)

Infanteer said:


> You're likely not wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Might be a good first project for these guys:

New Army Ranger Regiment: What We Know So Far​It will be routinely deployed around the world supporting allied nations in delivering defence and security.

Mozambique and Somalia have been reported as two of the countries under consideration for the first deployment.

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said the new regiment would be at the forefront of a more "active and engaged" Armed Forces.

The Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Mark Carleton-Smith, meanwhile, said the Ranger Regiment will be the "vanguard of the Army's global footprint", adding that it will be: "Matching brainpower with firepower, data and software with hardware."

However, in time the Special Operations Brigade will select personnel from across the Army.









						Ranger Regiment: What we know about the British Army's elite force
					

The Rangers draw their name from an elite unit that fought in the British Army in the 18th Century in North America, using irregular tactics.




					www.forces.net


----------



## CBH99 (16 Aug 2021)

Does anybody know what material assets we deployed to Afghanistan to try and evacuate our helpers?

Chartered civilian aircraft?  Polaris?  C-17?


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Does anybody know what material assets we deployed to Afghanistan to try and evacuate our helpers?
> 
> Chartered civilian aircraft?  Polaris?  C-17?


#OpAEGIS hashtag hits from various CF info-machine FB feeds shows Hercs, Globemasters & Polaris, as well as what appear to be charter planes, bringing terps et. al. out as recently as 2 days ago according to dates on the posts.  I _suspect_ other stuff _may_ also be in play over and above what the info machine wants us to see.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Aug 2021)

I know this is going to sound petty.  I apologize.  

But the Polaris deployed just so happens to be the PM’s aircraft?  None for the others were available and ready?  

Really…??  Or am I assuming the worst and being petty?


Regardless.  Good info and pics.  Thanks Bread


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> But the Polaris deployed just so happens to be the PM’s aircraft?  None for the others were available and ready?
> 
> Really…??  Or am I assuming the worst and being petty?


Can't blame you for being cynical these days (disappointed less often than being optimistic some days), but I'm wild-ass guessing given the tempo of the situation, it may have been more of a "happy to have ANY military plane available join the party" thing.  I stand to be corrected, though.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Aug 2021)

Usual initial reports/bought-and-paid-for media caveats apply ....


> Civilian allies of the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) are being left to die in Kabul as politicians in Ottawa refuse to give the green light to a ready-to-go evacuation plan, the Sun has learned.
> 
> Several sources within CAF tell the Sun a 17-member Non-combatant Evacuation Operations (NEO) advance team arrived at Ali Al Salem Air Base near Kuwait City late last week to link up with U.S. and U.K. teams already on the ground in Kabul — but have yet to receive orders to deploy.
> 
> ...


More here.


----------



## dapaterson (16 Aug 2021)

If the refuellers are tasked, and another tail is on overhaul, your options are limited.

Plus the VIP bird is just out of extensive repairs after an unfortunate incident involving gravity and a hanger wall.


----------



## brihard (16 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Does anybody know what material assets we deployed to Afghanistan to try and evacuate our helpers?
> 
> Chartered civilian aircraft?  Polaris?  C-17?


OSINT plane nerds have a C17 and two Hercs in Kuwait; another C17 and a Polaris in Germany. This is from public transponder tracking.

US has flooded the airspace with KC-135 tankers. Lots of aerial gas stations flying out of Doha over the gulf of Oman and up over Afgh. I assume our birds can drink from those taps?


----------



## dimsum (16 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> OSINT plane nerds have a C17 and two Hercs in Kuwait; another C17 and a Polaris in Germany. This is from public transponder tracking.
> 
> US has flooded the airspace with KC-135 tankers. Lots of aerial gas stations flying out of Doha over the gulf of Oman and up over Afgh. I assume our birds can drink from those taps?


I don't think our Polaris or Hercs are equipped for inflight refuelling.  But our C-17s are.




CBH99 said:


> But the Polaris deployed just so happens to be the PM’s aircraft? None for the others were available and ready?


I'm not involved in that sqn, but from previous experience they don't hold back the painted CC-150 just in case the PM wants it. 

Besides, in the next 36 days, he's not going anywhere a Challenger can't take him.


----------



## dimsum (16 Aug 2021)

.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Aug 2021)

Good Lord, what virtuous drivel!!!

#istandwithtrudeau   ???

If by ‘stand’ @kaythird means ‘and spew meaningless words that mean nothing to those who won’t be saved’ then sure…enjoy your woke echo chamber…


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Good Lord, what virtuous drivel!!!
> 
> #istandwithtrudeau   ???
> 
> ...


----------



## SeaKingTacco (16 Aug 2021)

dapaterson said:


> If the refuellers are tasked, and another tail is on overhaul, your options are limited.
> 
> Plus the VIP bird is just out of extensive repairs after an unfortunate incident involving gravity and a hanger wall.


The “VIP” bird is mostly just a paint job. it gets tasked to haul, just like the rest.

As for Brihard’s question about can the CC177s air to air refuel, yes they can. However, our crews do not maintain the qualification.


----------



## Maxman1 (17 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> Toss in countless former military members not killed on the battlefield and allowed to return to their villages? At some point regions are going to start breaking away.



That's a very, _very _optimistic view. 



ballz said:


> If Afghani's were provided with the means to defend themselves, would they revolt again the Taliban?



For the past twenty years we've been doing exactly that. This is the result. Ask any veteran how much fun it was working with ANA personnel who show up in flip flops and rusty AKs that may or may not work. Or adjust the sights to the maximum elevation to "turn up the power."


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Aug 2021)

One OSINT/aviation geek tracking mil aircraft @ Kabul


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Aug 2021)

Not just the interpreters either....


----------



## dimsum (17 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> One OSINT/aviation geek tracking mil aircraft @ Kabul
> View attachment 66076


One of the more interesting aircraft in the "stack" is the E-11A Battlefield Airborne Communications Node (BACN).









						Battlefield Airborne Communications Node - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## brihard (17 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> One of the more interesting aircraft in the "stack" is the E-11A Battlefield Airborne Communications Node (BACN).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There have been a few interesting ones, yeah. A Rivet Joint did a big survey of the Kabul AO earlier today.

A Canadian C-17 left Kuwait and returned to Europe, a separate C-17 (177705) came over from Canada last night, fueled in Germany, and landed in Kuwait a short while ago. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (17 Aug 2021)

Any word on rhe disposition of our Gurka embassy security? Or are they on their own?


----------



## Altair (17 Aug 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Any word on rhe disposition of our Gurka embassy security? Or are they on their own?


it sounds like Canada and others will continue to evacuate people in Kabul for as long as the airport and runway are secure. 

If they missed the initial rush hopefully they can find their way out in the coming week(s)


----------



## Remius (17 Aug 2021)

Who will rescue Nepalis from Afghanistan?
					

Ex-Nepal Army soldier Dhan Singh Dhami worked for a US defence contractor guarding the American Embassy in Kabul and assisted NATO forces in Helmand Province from 2004-2015. As the Taliban advances in Kabul, many other Nepalis in Afghanistan are at risk. Photo: NEPALI TIMES ARCHIVE s the Taliban...




					www.nepalitimes.com


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Aug 2021)

You  can expect a letter to the editor that will  be written by me to several newspapers. I am disgusted by this turn of events and our abandonment of allies.


----------



## brihard (17 Aug 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Any word on rhe disposition of our Gurka embassy security? Or are they on their own?


I’ve seen nothing, unfortunately. I hope they made it to the airport already. That’s probably going to be the hardest part.


----------



## CBH99 (17 Aug 2021)

It seems like somewhere in the back channels, someone with some power & influence on our side was able to arrange something with their counterpart on their side.  Awfully nice of the Taliban to secure the airport & allow for evacuation operations to resume - all of a sudden...


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> It seems like somewhere in the back channels, someone with some power & influence on our side was able to arrange something with their counterpart on their side.  Awfully nice of the Taliban to secure the airport & allow for evacuation operations to resume - all of a sudden...


Seems that Trump’s deal with the Taliban must have been fairly inclusive.  This does not actually surprise me, re: America securing its interests and other nations benefitting collectively from the overflow of its influence.


----------



## Weinie (17 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> It seems like somewhere in the back channels, someone with some power & influence on our side was able to arrange something with their counterpart on their side.  Awfully nice of the Taliban to secure the airport & allow for evacuation operations to resume - *all of a sudden...*


Or maybe the Taliban themselves are astonished how quickly they have asserted control, and have read the doomsday scenarios that most Western media have published, and are mounting a strat PR campaign.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Aug 2021)

"Golden bridge".  Avoiding unnecessary battles.  Get the westerners out; conduct the pogroms; then there will be time to count coup on foreigners.


----------



## Mills Bomb (17 Aug 2021)

Does anyone have any more concrete information on what happened to the Gurkha's at the Canadian embassy? Seems a bit vague so far on exactly what happened. 

I realize this mess is still unfolding, it certainly seems to me that if we truly left behind this many people to fend for themselves at our own embassy this is very concerning. Maybe it's a result of bad intel from the Americans, but still, we had so much time to deal with this and I'm sure a lot of people in positions to do something must have suspected this could happen.


----------



## Mills Bomb (17 Aug 2021)

From the article above;

"Globalnews reported that Canada had not approved the evacuation of 100 Nepali guards from its embassy in Kabul, even after its other staff were flown out."


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Aug 2021)

Mills Bomb said:


> From the article above;
> 
> "Globalnews reported that Canada had not approved the evacuation of 100 Nepali guards from its embassy in Kabul, even after its other staff were flown out."



Because the Gurkhas and Taliban are such great buddies, right?


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Seems that Trump’s deal with the Taliban must have been fairly inclusive.  This does not actually surprise me, re: America securing its interests and other nations benefitting collectively from the overflow of its influence.


Could be a bit of that (although it's intriguing that all references to said deal have been erased from the Republican National Committee's web page - Google Cache still has it for now, as does archive.org), and/or all sorts of other machinations we can't even fathom.


Weinie said:


> Or maybe the Taliban themselves are astonished how quickly they have asserted control, and have read the doomsday scenarios that most Western media have published, and are mounting a strat PR campaign.


Never say never, indeed ...

Meanwhile, a bit from Nepalese media, apparently from the horse's mouth, as of yesterday ....


> ... Birendra Godar of Rupa Rural Municipality-1 had been working as a security guard at the Embassy of Canada in Kabul for the past 11 years. The sudden uprising of the Taliban force has put him and many other fellow Nepalis like him in a difficult state. They have pleaded with the government of Nepal for their immediate rescue. Many of them are waiting for the government's assistance in hotels across Kabul.
> 
> According to Godar, as many as 200 Nepali and Indian citizens who worked at the Canadian embassy and the German embassy in Kabul are staying at the hotel near the airport. “We are all staying at the Johak Village Hotel near the airport. Bullets are being fired outside. We are at high risk and plead for our immediate rescue. Citizens from Nepal, India and many other countries are stranded at the moment,” Godar said.
> 
> ...


While doing the right thing should be first & foremost, I'm sure people making decisions haven't forgotten what it cost Canada the last time Nepali security staff in Canada's employ were harmed in Afghanistan.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Aug 2021)

This is going to bite us in the ass. It should be an election issue but sadly it will a sideshow forgotten by most Canadians.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Aug 2021)

Trust and credibility.  Very hard to earn, very easy to burn.


----------



## ballz (17 Aug 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> For the past twenty years we've been doing exactly that. This is the result. Ask any veteran how much fun it was working with ANA personnel who show up in flip flops and rusty AKs that may or may not work. Or adjust the sights to the maximum elevation to "turn up the power."



I was thinking more along the lines of arming every citizen... I'm not sure trying to create a standing army was a good strategy, might be way too much of a first world idea for a third world problem.


----------



## Altair (17 Aug 2021)

ballz said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of arming every citizen... I'm not sure trying to create a standing army was a good strategy, might be way too much of a first world idea for a third world problem.


Things we learned. 

Tribal societies do not work well in standing armies.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> You  can expect a letter to the editor that will  be written by me to several newspapers. I am disgusted by this turn of events and our abandonment of allies.


I'd like to post it here too if the mods are ok with it.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Aug 2021)

I have watched this tragedy unfold over several years now. I can say I have seen worse but in this one we as Canadians are complicit in it. 

The announcement by the President of the USA that all American troops would be withdrawn by September 11, 2021 should have been a warning to all of us that the Taliban would at the the very least attempt to seize power once more and rule Afghanistan with an iron fist. The speed at which they did that was stunning to say the least.

To that end, did Global Affairs Canada and the Immigration Department have contingency plans in place to expedite the repatriation of those Afghan citizens and their families that aided our troops? By the looks of it, they did not. They were insisting on a bureaucratic process that may take months to complete. Or maybe the Afghans were "asking for more than we can give".

The announcement that Canada would take 20,000 Afghan refugees is a welcome sign, but I would daresay none of those 20,000 are in Kandahar or Kabul or near Spin Boldak, Massum Ghar or in the Panjiway District. This is smoke and mirrors, hiding the true human tragedy that is unfolding before us.

I'm saddened by the fate that awaits the Afghans who aided our soldiers. Once the journalists and media have departed Afghanistan the Taliban will extract their revenge. The fate of the Afghans will not be a pleasant one. 

I'm saddened for the veterans of Afghanistan. I served with many of the soldiers of 2 PPCLI that were deployed to Afghanistan. The "terps" as the interpreters were referred to risked their lives and the lives of their families to aid our troops. They gained the respect of our soldiers and in some cases forged bonds that can only be forged under extreme circumstances - like being ambushed by the Taliban. Our soldiers rotated home, while the terps remained to help the next contingent.

Part of me is angry. I am angry with the lackadaisical response by our PM and cabinet to a genuine human tragedy that we as a nation are complicit in. Instead our Prime Minister calls an election. We failed our allies. Bureaucratic red tape, dithering and inaction by this Prime Minister and cabinet will cost the lives of Afghan people who called us friends an allies.

The President of Afghanistan deserves some very special scorn. He ran away - in essence abandoning his nation and his people. He is a coward. His insistence that Afghan citizens required a passport to leave Afghanistan, even as he knew the Taliban were marching towards Kabul, is especially heinous. By the way, when he deserted his nation and his people, did he have a passport? Rats deserting a sinking ship behave better than this pompous arrogant human being.

This inaction by our nation saddens me. We used to stand for principles. We used to honour our agreements with allies and those who served with us. Now it appears this nation stands for nothing and can't be bothered to honour agreements. It is certainly not the Canada I knew. Its sad.


Mods feel free to remove if necessary


----------



## Maxman1 (18 Aug 2021)

ballz said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of arming every citizen.



That's kind of the case already. Something usually taught on personnel searches is that in countries like Afghanistan, it's very common for ordinary people to own and carry AKs (in the context of pers search, that means someone carrying a rifle is not, in and of itself, an indication they are a combatant).


----------



## CBH99 (18 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I have watched this tragedy unfold over several years now. I can say I have seen worse but in this one we as Canadians are complicit in it.
> 
> The announcement by the President of the USA that all American troops would be withdrawn by September 11, 2021 should have been a warning to all of us that the Taliban would at the the very least attempt to seize power once more and rule Afghanistan with an iron fist. The speed at which they did that was stunning to say the least.
> 
> ...


You didn’t say anything that isn’t true.  Disgustingly true.  

I am genuinely curious as to whether the Afghan President had a valid passport when he fled.  Perhaps he did, but did all of his staff & aids?  

Also, is it not the prerogative of the country these people arrive in, to determine what documentation they need to enter?  Especially people who would clearly qualify for refugee status?

Afghanistan was collapsing far faster than any of us imagined it would.  And he put more effort into creating barriers than he did into streamlining what he could.  Then jumped ship as a matter of self preservation.  



As disgusting as the response has been from our government in response to this - what really pisses me off is that we’ve had 10 years to hold up our end of the bargain, and haven’t.  Evacuating our helpers right now shouldn’t even be an issue.  

Contract expires & criteria were met?  Here is your immigrant special visa.  Off to Canada you go, as agreed.  10 years later?

Pathetic would be a compliment…


----------



## CBH99 (18 Aug 2021)

Mills Bomb said:


> From the article above;
> 
> "Globalnews reported that Canada had not approved the evacuation of 100 Nepali guards from its embassy in Kabul, even after its other staff were flown out."


Oh FFS…

These folks WORKED SECURITY AT OUR EMBASSY - some for roughly a decade - and we even screw THEM over??    

They are in the city.  Working in/around the same damn building our people are.  And we can’t print some cards or stamp some papers somehow?


Loss for words.  Utterly pathetic.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> ... Contract expires & criteria were met?  Here is your immigrant special visa.  Off to Canada you go, as agreed.  10 years later? ...


The current debacle falls on the current management - like someone smarter than me has said in these forums, leaving and leaving in disarray should be two different things.  WTF? doesn't even begin to cover it.

That said, a reminder:  10 years ago, there was a fast-track program for interpreters in place that wrapped up when Canada's combat mission ended - concluding in ... something less than stellar success. Even than, processing times approached 2 years.  Not to mention perhaps a bit of ministerial infighting not exactly accelerating the process.

Also, when this program was put into place, waaaaaaaaaaay back when this thread started, there was more than just a few people saying we don't want to suck _all_ the educated class out of the country.

Why the f@#$%^&*k aren't lessons ever learned?


----------



## CBH99 (18 Aug 2021)

Lots of blame to go around, that’s for sure. Thank you for linking those items, helps as a reminder that this wasnt managed well from the very beginning.  

Not to go off topic, but how does the government not have a proven process for these types of individuals, re special visas.  


Ending the fast track program when our combat mission ended seems incredibly unfair, and to me it comes across like we weren’t sincere in our appreciation of their help.  

I’ll Google this more later.  But having that program in place for 6 months to 1 year after our combat mission ended would have been a nice gesture, given the delays that will inevitably occur.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> ... how does the government not have a proven process for these types of individuals, re special visas ...


You'd think that's the case, but if the best they could do back then was 2 year turn-around, sounds like there was loads o' fine tuning to be done then as well as now.

Some media linked earlier in the thread say the vetting process is partly to blame.  Double-edged sword, that.  More vetting does increase the odds of keeping baddies out of Canada (remember all the references to how many fighting-age men were in those photos of Syrian refugees?).  More vetting, though, adds more "red tape" and more time.  

Finding the balance between speed & thoroughness appears to be the issue that hasn't been resolved since "Bring 'em to Canada 1.0".


----------



## Mills Bomb (18 Aug 2021)

I'm surprised members here don't feel this will be an issue in the election. I think if the public is aware of what occurred while our PM was at the GG's announcing the election and who we left behind it's something Canadians would care about. Nepal certainly cares and that doesn't look good on us as a nation. The main issue seems to be a lack of coverage and information on exactly what happened, I think this could still make mainstream news if more stories develop from it.


----------



## CBH99 (18 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> You'd think that's the case, but if the best they could do back then was 2 year turn-around, sounds like there was loads o' fine tuning to be done then as well as now.
> 
> Some media linked earlier in the thread say the vetting process is partly to blame.  Double-edged sword, that.  More vetting does increase the odds of keeping baddies out of Canada (remember all the references to how many fighting-age men were in those photos of Syrian refugees?).  More vetting, though, adds more "red tape" and more time.
> 
> Finding the balance between speed & thoroughness appears to be the issue that hasn't been resolved since "Bring 'em to Canada 1.0".


Which, in the case of our contracted helpers in Afghanistan, seems more cumbersome than it needs to be.  

If someone was embedded with our deployed forces for one, two, or three rotations - I would think that would be reasonable enough vetting.  

Their references would be our members, all of whom have some form of government security clearance.  And verification of their employment would be easy, as we were their employer.  

If we signed a contract with them, and they fulfilled their end - we should have just fulfilled our end.  When he says him, his wife, and two kids are ready to move once his contract has been completed - here is your visa, instructions on next step, etc.  

At that point we know a lot more about them than some random Syrians hopping on a plane for optics.  

0.02


*Just to clarify, I agree with you entirely, and am not disagreeing with anything you said.  Just adding more dong to the shovel of 🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️*


----------



## CBH99 (18 Aug 2021)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm surprised members here don't feel this will be an issue in the election. I think if the public is aware of what occurred while our PM was at the GG's announcing the election and who we left behind it's something Canadians would care about. Nepal certainly cares and that doesn't look good on us as a nation. The main issue seems to be a lack of coverage and information on exactly what happened, I think this could still make mainstream news if more stories develop from it.


I think and desperately hope the media will pursue it aggressively, especially now that an election has been called.  Truly.


----------



## brihard (18 Aug 2021)

Mills Bomb said:


> I'm surprised members here don't feel this will be an issue in the election. I think if the public is aware of what occurred while our PM was at the GG's announcing the election and who we left behind it's something the public would care about. Nepal certainly cares and that doesn't look good on us as a nation. The main issue seems to be a lack of coverage and information on exactly what happened, I think this could still make mainstream news if more stories develop from it.


Canadians don’t give a shit about Afghanistan. They DEFINITELY don’t give a shit about Afghans. There are about 40,000 of us, spread across 338 ridings, who have skin in the game on this one. Electorally it’s a tiny blip. One candidate makes one amusing gaffe, and it will supplant this in the news cycle.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> ... If someone was embedded with our deployed forces for one, two, or three rotations - I would think that would be reasonable enough vetting.
> 
> Their references would be our members, all of whom have some form of government security clearance.  And verification of their employment would be easy, as we were their employer.
> 
> If we signed a contract with them, and they fulfilled their end - we should have just fulfilled our end.  When he says him, his wife, and two kids are ready to move once his contract has been completed - here is your visa, instructions on next step, etc.


There you go making sense - where will we be if THAT takes hold?  Bang on - and you'd think someone would have learned the lessons by now.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Aug 2021)

Meanwhile, no worries, riiiiiiiiiight?  This, via Al Jazeera English ...


> _"__Taliban offers amnesty, promises women’s rights and media freedom_​_Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid says group won’t allow territory ‘to be used against anybody or any country’ – updates as they happened ..."_


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Aug 2021)

I have watched this tragedy unfold over several years now. I can say I have seen worse but in this one we as Canadians are complicit in it. 

The announcement by the President of the USA that all American troops would be withdrawn by September 11, 2021 should have been a warning to all of us that the Taliban would at the the very least attempt to seize power once more and rule Afghanistan with an iron fist. The speed at which they did that was stunning to say the least.

To that end, did Global Affairs Canada and the Immigration Department have contingency plans in place to expedite the repatriation of those Afghan citizens and their families that aided our troops? By the looks of it, they did not. They were insisting on a bureaucratic process that may take months to complete. Or maybe the Afghans were "asking for more than we can give".

The announcement that Canada would take 20,000 Afghan refugees is a welcome sign, but I would daresay none of those 20,000 are in Kandahar or Kabul or near Spin Boldak, Massum Ghar or in the Panjiway District. This is smoke and mirrors, hiding the true human tragedy that is unfolding before us.

I'm saddened by the fate that awaits the Afghans who aided our soldiers. Once the journalists and media have departed Afghanistan the Taliban will extract their revenge. The fate of the Afghans will not be a pleasant one. 

I'm saddened for the veterans of Afghanistan. I served with many of the soldiers of 2 PPCLI that were deployed to Afghanistan. The "terps" as the interpreters were referred to risked their lives and the lives of their families to aid our troops. They gained the respect of our soldiers and in some cases forged bonds that can only be forged under extreme circumstances - like being ambushed by the Taliban. Our soldiers rotated home, while the terps remained to help the next contingent.

Part of me is angry. I am angry with the lackadaisical response by our PM and cabinet to a genuine human tragedy that we as a nation are complicit in. Instead our Prime Minister calls an election. We failed our allies. Bureaucratic red tape, dithering and inaction by this Prime Minister and cabinet will cost the lives of Afghan people who called us friends an allies.

The President of Afghanistan deserves some very special scorn. He ran away - in essence abandoning his nation and his people. He is a coward. His insistence that Afghan citizens required a passport to leave Afghanistan, even as he knew the Taliban were marching towards Kabul, is especially heinous. By the way, when he deserted his nation and his people, did he have a passport? Rats deserting a sinking ship behave better than this pompous arrogant human being.

This inaction by our nation saddens me. We used to stand for principles. We used to honour our agreements with allies and those who served with us. Now it appears this nation stands for nothing and can't be bothered to honour agreements. It is certainly not the Canada I knew. Its sad.



The above is a copy of a letter I sent out yesterday to various media outlets.


I think the Canadian public will stay engaged in this until oh - tomorrow, maybe the day after.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, no worries, riiiiiiiiiight?  This, via Al Jazeera English ...


 Yup its all good - the leopard has changed its spots has it not? At least until the mainstream media leaves.


----------



## YZT580 (18 Aug 2021)

The LPC will attempt to attach blame to Harper since he was in charge when we pulled. out.  The cons will need to remind the public that it only took a few weeks for Trudeau's new government to reverse several of Harper's initiatives  If they didn't like his handling of our allies he has had 6 years to do something about it.  This failure is totally his.


----------



## CBH99 (18 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I have watched this tragedy unfold over several years now. I can say I have seen worse but in this one we as Canadians are complicit in it.
> 
> The announcement by the President of the USA that all American troops would be withdrawn by September 11, 2021 should have been a warning to all of us that the Taliban would at the the very least attempt to seize power once more and rule Afghanistan with an iron fist. The speed at which they did that was stunning to say the least.
> 
> ...


Given that it’s election time, the media may very well focus and hammer on this for a while.  Until the election anyway, we can only hope.  

The public will engage with whatever the media tells them to.  If this is the focus - along with plenty of interviews and footage - and pushes the narrative, I believe the public will be engaged for as long as the media tells them to be.  

If the media doesn’t push it, and chooses to cover what shape that cloud outside the window looks like - I think you are right.  Everybody will be outraged for a day or two.


----------



## Haggis (18 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> Canadians don’t give never gave a shit about Afghanistan.


FTFY.  The Canadian Forces were at war.  Canada was at the hockey game.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Why the f@#$%^&*k aren't lessons ever learned?


We've always called it Lessons Learned. Even made lots of cool looking little books on the subjects. Unfortunately, the Canadian version has mostly been 'Lessons Identified, no further action required.'


----------



## brihard (18 Aug 2021)

Mercedes Stephenson is now reporting the Embassy Gurkhas are out.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Aug 2021)

> the vetting process



Only partly tongue in cheek...


"Who did you work for?  Do you have a picture of yourself?  Give it to me.  I'll get back to you in a couple of days."
...
"Maj So-and-so, this is a picture of a person claiming to be X.  Did he work for you?"

Of course, all of that is probably to be found in the social media accounts of the people who worked together.


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> Mercedes Stephenson is now reporting the Embassy Gurkhas are out.


Of course, because the PM and his Star Chamber got the latest public opinion pools that said they should look after the Gurkhas too.

…what a great job the Young Prince is doing!

#IStandWithTrudeau


….NOT! 😡


----------



## Altair (18 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Of course, because the PM and his Star Chamber got the latest public opinion pools that said they should look after the Gurkhas too.
> 
> …what a great job the Young Prince is doing!
> 
> ...


Complain that they didn't do it, complain when they do do it.

Heh. 

Glad they are out.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> Mercedes Stephenson is now reporting the Embassy Gurkhas are out.


that is good to hear.



Good2Golf said:


> Of course, because the PM and his Star Chamber got the latest public opinion pools that said they should look after the Gurkhas too.
> 
> …what a great job the Young Prince is doing!
> 
> ...


Change the highlighted to "gang of ne'er do wells and friends of dictators, and not so friendly to women who stand up to him"


----------



## Mills Bomb (18 Aug 2021)

This is already getting more traction on O'Toole's twitter for whatever it's worth, he's posted a video from retired Colonel Alex Ruff discussing the situation. I am going to respectfully disagree with other members here as I think this will become a bigger public issue than predicted on this forum (I could of course be very wrong!). Pretty much most of the public has at least heard of the sexual misconduct fiasco, so it's not like the public just doesn't care about the CAF, we likely have more support than some members might think and it's not just 40,000 members, there is a lot of retired members, veterans, our families, and members of the public that do care and may vote accordingly. And we have another option who actually served in the CAF who likely isn't going to let this issue just slide away. I suspect as more veterans continue to speak out and write letters, this will keep getting more traction. Of course the PM will try to distract their way out of it or do things after the fact, but I think the public is catching on.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Aug 2021)

Mills Bomb said:


> This is already getting more traction on O'Toole's twitter for whatever it's worth, he's posted a video from retired Colonel Alex Ruff discussing the situation. I am going to respectfully disagree with other members here as I think this will become a bigger public issue than predicted on this forum (I could of course be very wrong!). Pretty much most of the public has at least heard of the sexual misconduct fiasco, so it's not like the public just doesn't care about the CAF, we likely have more support than some members might think and it's not just 40,000 members, there is a lot of retired members, veterans, our families, and members of the public that do care and may vote accordingly. And we have another option who actually served in the CAF who likely isn't going to let this issue just slide away.




I don't share your optimism but I certainly hope that the public stays engaged.

Former CAF members can freely express their opinions,  within reason of course. 

I know I have and will continue to do so. Please write your Members of Parliament and local newspapers.


----------



## Czech_pivo (18 Aug 2021)

Anyone have any updates/knowledge on where Hamid Karzai is? Is he still in Kabul?  Wouldn't he be on their 'kill list'?  Same with Abdullah Abdullah, I'd think that he would have left Kabul as well.  I'm reading some reports that both of them are still in Kabul.  If so, who do you think is protecting their compounds, US troops, their own tribesmen?


----------



## Altair (18 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> Anyone have any updates/knowledge on where Hamid Karzai is? Is he still in Kabul?  Wouldn't he be on their 'kill list'?  Same with Abdullah Abdullah, I'd think that he would have left Kabul as well.  I'm reading some reports that both of them are still in Kabul.  If so, who do you think is protecting their compounds, US troops, their own tribesmen?


last I heard he was negotiating with the taliban.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> Anyone have any updates/knowledge on where Hamid Karzai is? Is he still in Kabul?  ....


I'll take strange bedfellows for $400, Alex ....


> A Taliban commander and senior leader of the Haqqani Network militant group, Anas Haqqani, has met *former Afghan President Hamid Karzai* for talks, a Taliban official said on Wednesday, amid efforts by the Taliban to set up a government ...


🍿


----------



## Remius (18 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> Canadians don’t give a shit about Afghanistan. They DEFINITELY don’t give a shit about Afghans. There are about 40,000 of us, spread across 338 ridings, who have skin in the game on this one. Electorally it’s a tiny blip. One candidate makes one amusing gaffe, and it will supplant this in the news cycle.


Agree.  But it’s more than 40,000.  It’s 40,000 plus friends, family etc that have all been affected.  But yeah, a drop in the bucket.  People are more worried about a 4th wave lock down, what they are doing labour day and when JAmes bond comes out.  

let’s be realistic too, people don’t seem very engaged about the election as whole let alone this issue as an actual issue.


----------



## YZT580 (18 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> Mercedes Stephenson is now reporting the Embassy Gurkhas are out.


Thank God.  But who was responsible?  Was it through our government efforts or their own contractors?


----------



## Remius (18 Aug 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Thank God.  But who was responsible?  Was it through our government efforts or their own contractors?











						Gurkhas who guarded Canada’s embassy now evacuated from Kabul
					

The evacuation of all 100 Nepalese Gurkhas who were contracted to protect the Canadian embassy in Afghanistan comes after calls on the federal government to help them




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




Details here.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> I think and desperately hope the media will pursue it aggressively, especially now that an election has been called.  Truly.


Which media? Trudeau's bribed propaganda machine? They haven't  done their true, unbiased job since 2019. In the case of the CBC, never. The MSM won't  turn on trudeau until they see him on the ropes. Then they'll simply hedge their bets until after Sept 20. Then they'll just suck up to the winner again looking for favoured status.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Aug 2021)

Remius said:


> Gurkhas who guarded Canada’s embassy now evacuated from Kabul
> 
> 
> The evacuation of all 100 Nepalese Gurkhas who were contracted to protect the Canadian embassy in Afghanistan comes after calls on the federal government to help them
> ...


Reading between the lines and knowing our virtue signaling PM, I'm  going to say it was probably more the contractors, than anything this government did. Just a guess of course. The contractors have a vested interest in maintaining good relations with employees, if they want to use them again. Trudeau doesn't  give a fig for anyone that can't further his agenda. If people hadn't bitched and we weren't  in election mode, the Gurkas would still be there. He keeps buses circling parliament hill to throw people under.


----------



## YZT580 (18 Aug 2021)

Remius said:


> Gurkhas who guarded Canada’s embassy now evacuated from Kabul
> 
> 
> The evacuation of all 100 Nepalese Gurkhas who were contracted to protect the Canadian embassy in Afghanistan comes after calls on the federal government to help them
> ...


thanks


----------



## brihard (18 Aug 2021)

More from Mercedes Stephenson at Global: Two Canadian C-17s will commence regular flights out of Kabul to evacuate CANCITS, permanent residents, and Afghan locals who had “an enduring reationship” with the Canadian mission.

I’m not clear on whether western nations are achieving an arrangement with the Taliban to let these people go to the airport and enter into the NATO controlled part of it.






						Canada has reached a deal for 2 military planes to resume ‘flying regularly’ into Kabul - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Details about dates or times of evacuation flights remain unclear as efforts intensify to evacuate citizens and Afghans from the Taliban, who have seized control of Afghanistan.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> More from Mercedes Stephenson at Global: Two Canadian C-17s will commence regular flights out of Kabul to evacuate CANCITS, permanent residents, and Afghan *locals who had “an enduring reationship” with the Canadian mission* ...


Good to hear in general, but the highlighted bit draws my eye, the same way this bit drew my eye in "Get 'Em Out 1.0" as stated in 2010 ....


> ... "The applicant must demonstrate that: the threat is directly related to the individual's support of the Canadian mission in Kandahar, or directly related to an immediate family member's support of the Canadian mission in Kandahar; and *the threat is greater than the level of risk faced by the many others working for the Canadian government in Kandahar province in general*." ...


Here's how the info-machine today is phrasing it (as of 3 days ago, anyway) ...

... versus how it was phrased by the info-machine in 2009

Beware the weasel wording ....


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> We've always called it Lessons Learned. Even made lots of cool looking little books on the subjects. Unfortunately, the Canadian version has mostly been 'Lessons Identified, no further action required.'


#LessonsShelved, indeed ...


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Aug 2021)

It's gonna make for difficult viewing if Taliban view any level of cooperation, for any length of time, with any invader, as a capital crime.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Aug 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's gonna make for difficult viewing if Taliban view any level of cooperation, for any length of time, with any invader, as a capital crime.



Based on their trigger discipline I'm guessing some of those Taliban spent some time working with us invaders.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's gonna make for difficult viewing if Taliban view any level of cooperation, for any length of time, with any invader, as a capital crime.


Whaddya mean "if"  


> Afghanistan's United Nations representative said Monday that the Taliban has already begun the process of locating people on a "target list" by conducting "house-to-house" searches throughout the city of Kabul, terrifying residents.
> 
> In an emergency meeting held by the U.N. Security Council, Ghulam M. Isaczai urged the council to understand the urgent nature of the situation in Kabul since the Capital city of Afghanistan had appeared to be taken by the Taliban.
> 
> "Kabul residents are reporting that Taliban have already started house-to-house searches in some neighborhoods, registering names and looking for people in their target list," Isaczai said. "There are already reports of target killings and looting in the city. Kabul residents are living in absolute fear right now."


----------



## SeaKingTacco (19 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Based on their trigger discipline I'm guessing some of those Taliban spent some time working with us invaders.
> 
> 
> View attachment 66106


That was the first thing I noticed. The weapons handling drills are all “western military”.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Aug 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> That was the first thing I noticed. The weapons handling drills are all “western military”.



So are the waist sizes on the older guys in the front rank


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Good to hear in general, but the highlighted bit draws my eye, the same way this bit drew my eye in "Get 'Em Out 1.0" as stated in 2010 ....
> 
> Here's how the info-machine today is phrasing it (as of 3 days ago, anyway) ...
> View attachment 66097
> ...


Thanks to the petty bureaucrats and deep "thinkers" who don't know shit from shinola.


----------



## brihard (19 Aug 2021)

From public flight trackers, one of our C-17s is inbound to Kabul right now. Hopefully tomorrow we get a sense of what kinds of numbers are making it out.


----------



## Maxman1 (19 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> So are the waist sizes on the older guys in the front rank



That's nothing. ISIS had their own Jabba the Hutt. Putting the "fat" in fatwa.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Aug 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> That's nothing. ISIS had their own Jabba the Hutt. Putting the "fat" in fatwa.



OK, you win the internet for today


----------



## CBH99 (20 Aug 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> daftandbarmy said:
> 
> 
> > So are the waist sizes on the older guys in the front rank


I love how right infront of the press, the guy on the right appears to be taking a nap  😆 

Mind you, I imagine he's had a pretty busy few days.  Take those power naps when you can!


----------



## CBH99 (20 Aug 2021)

... _"The applicant must demonstrate that: the threat is directly related to the individual's support of the Canadian mission in Kandahar, or directly related to an immediate family member's support of the Canadian mission in Kandahar; and *the threat is greater than the level of risk faced by the many others working for the Canadian government in Kandahar province in general*."_ ...

That is, indeed, a great example of blatant weasel-wording.  Which means some dickhead with the authority to word, approve/disapprove, or implement this actually thought to himself "How can I word this in such a way to be so specific that we can turn away most of the people who apply?"  Either that, or completely out of touch with reality of life in Afghanistan.  (Probably both.)


-  How does one demonstrate that threats being made against them are directly related to their support of our mission?  (We just acknowledged, right in the wording, that they supported our mission.  So why are we making them jump through student hoops?)


-  I can easily see government officials/authorities rebutting that 'while this individual is being threatened, or has been attacked, there is no direct evidence that it is because they supported our mission' - and using the wording to turn them away.


- The 'many others' working for the Canadian government in Kandahar, at that time, were members of the CAF, a few members of the RCMP, and a few people from Global Affairs.  All Canadian citizens, working for the Canadian government as employees who were deployed, paid a salary, and had a fairly predictable return date.  None of whom faced direct reprisals against themselves or their families here in Canada.  (So this point is pretty f**king moot...)


----------



## dimsum (20 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> From public flight trackers, one of our C-17s is inbound to Kabul right now. Hopefully tomorrow we get a sense of what kinds of numbers are making it out.


Which site(s) do you use?


----------



## Czech_pivo (20 Aug 2021)

Not sure if any of you have watched this but I think this guy is spot on.









						August 20, 2021, Afghanistan-Taliban news
					

With the Taliban in control of Afghanistan, many countries are racing to evacuate their citizens and shutting their embassies temporarily. Follow here for the latest news.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> Which site(s) do you use?


FlightAware.com has solid ADS-B in the region. Look up OAKB for Kabul.


----------



## brihard (20 Aug 2021)

I’ve been using flightradar24, as well as following OSINT needs on Twitter who keep stranger hours than I do.


----------



## Czech_pivo (20 Aug 2021)

I can see things taking a turn for the worse over this weekend. As more time goes on the ripple effect of all those thousands of monied westerners not being around to pay their support staff, eat at restaurants, have their clothes cleaned, houses/apartments cleaned, etc, etc means no income for thousands of Kabulis, which in turn means no food in mouth.  All those hotels and such will have no revenue coming in, all their staff will be laid off at best or they've already been looted because all the Sr. Mgmt has fled, so many other similar scenario's being played out.
Its going to be ugly by 31 August when the US is set to wrap up evacuations in Kabul.  In fact it might not even last that long....


----------



## QV (20 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> I can see things taking a turn for the worse over this weekend. As more time goes on the ripple effect of all those thousands of monied westerners not being around to pay their support staff, eat at restaurants, have their clothes cleaned, houses/apartments cleaned, etc, etc means no income for thousands of Kabulis, which in turn means no food in mouth.  All those hotels and such will have no revenue coming in, all their staff will be laid off at best or they've already been looted because all the Sr. Mgmt has fled, so many other similar scenario's being played out.
> Its going to be ugly by 31 August when the US is set to wrap up evacuations in Kabul.  In fact it might not even last that long....


And the NGOs working in the region...


----------



## Altair (20 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> I can see things taking a turn for the worse over this weekend. As more time goes on the ripple effect of all those thousands of monied westerners not being around to pay their support staff, eat at restaurants, have their clothes cleaned, houses/apartments cleaned, etc, etc means no income for thousands of Kabulis, which in turn means no food in mouth.  All those hotels and such will have no revenue coming in, all their staff will be laid off at best or they've already been looted because all the Sr. Mgmt has fled, so many other similar scenario's being played out.
> Its going to be ugly by 31 August when the US is set to wrap up evacuations in Kabul.  In fact it might not even last that long....


Lets not forget the IMF and most every other financial institution will all but certainly cease sending money to Afghanistan.

Not sure the taliban care about that, but the economy of afghanistan, especially kabul is about to get hammered.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> I can see things taking a turn for the worse over this weekend. As more time goes on the ripple effect of all those thousands of monied westerners not being around to pay their support staff, eat at restaurants, have their clothes cleaned, houses/apartments cleaned, etc, etc means no income for thousands of Kabulis, which in turn means no food in mouth.  All those hotels and such will have no revenue coming in, all their staff will be laid off at best or they've already been looted because all the Sr. Mgmt has fled, so many other similar scenario's being played out.
> Its going to be ugly by 31 August when the US is set to wrap up evacuations in Kabul.  In fact it might not even last that long....


This is not going to go well. I have a very jaundiced view of the Taliban - and I don't think the line "we've changed " bullshit will last beyond the last plane out of Kabul.,


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> This is not going to go well. I have a very jaundiced view of the Taliban - and I don't think the line "we've changed " bullshit will last beyond the last plane out of Kabul.,



Now, now... you just have no appreciation for the way they interpret and apply Sharia Law. For example, what should you do when the cooking is awful?

Woman set on fire by Taliban after she's accused of 'bad cooking' in Afghanistan

Former Afghan judge Najla Ayoubi, the chief of the coalition and global programmes at Every Woman Treaty which campaigns to end violence against women, said women in Afghanistan have told her about the extreme violence they are facing.

Speaking to Sky News, she said a woman told her she "put on fire because she was accused of bad cooking for Taliban fighters".

The lawyer added: "They are forcing people to give them food and cook them food.









						Woman set on fire by Taliban after she's accused of 'bad cooking' in Afghanistan
					

A former judge said women in Afghanistan have come to her with harrowing stories of extreme violence as the Taliban continues to seize power following the withdrawal of Western militaries




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Now, now... you just have no appreciation for the way they interpret and apply Sharia Law. For example, what should you do when the cooking is awful?
> 
> Woman set on fire by Taliban after she's accused of 'bad cooking' in Afghanistan
> 
> ...


I still thinking shooting Taliban fighters in the face or centre of visible mass is the proper solution. Or am I being to judgy?


----------



## Altair (20 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I still thinking shooting Taliban fighters in the face or centre of visible mass is the proper solution. Or am I being to judgy?


Right now?

Whats to stop them from shooting down a evac plane in retaliation?

Now after the evacuation is done...


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> Right now?
> 
> Whats to stop them from shooting down a evac plane in retaliation?
> 
> Now after the evacuation is done...


After the evac Hellfire missiles to any NATO piece of equipment left behind.


----------



## QV (20 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> This is not going to go well. I have a very jaundiced view of the Taliban - and I don't think the line "we've changed " bullshit will last beyond the last plane out of Kabul.,


Reports are they're going door to door now looking for NATO collaborators.


----------



## Kilted (20 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I still thinking shooting Taliban fighters in the face or centre of visible mass is the proper solution. Or am I being to judgy?


"But if you kill the terrorists, they win."


----------



## Altair (20 Aug 2021)

Kilted said:


> "But if you kill the terrorists, they win."


What has the west, and before the west, Russia, been doing for 30 of the last 42 years?


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Aug 2021)

Kilted said:


> "But if you kill the terrorists, they win."


OK JT


----------



## Maxman1 (20 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I still thinking shooting Taliban fighters in the face or centre of visible mass is the proper solution. Or am I being to judgy?



Whatever happened to "don't negotiate with terrorists"?


----------



## Maxman1 (20 Aug 2021)




----------



## Haggis (20 Aug 2021)

Kilted said:


> "But if you kill the terrorists, they win."


There is no credible source for JT actually saying this.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Aug 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> Whatever happened to "don't negotiate with terrorists"?



Well, alternatively, you could elect them to run parts of your country after a 30+ year COIN campaign resulting in 3000+ dead/wounded:


----------



## brihard (21 Aug 2021)

Maxman1 said:


> Whatever happened to "don't negotiate with terrorists"?


Reality.

Terrorism is a tactic, not an identity. Simplistically defining them as ‘terrorists’ and then writing off all other elements of tactics, strategy, or diplomacy is ceding the initiative, because you’re letting them dictate terms, even if those dictated terms are total conflict. But, in actuality, you’re still dealing with actors who are generally rational within their own interests and according to their own perspectives. If you actually possess the power and will to achieve your ends completely on your own terms, great. But that’s rare. More likely there are overlaps between interests, and total conflict will not necessarily achieve what you need. Killing people and breaking their shit isn’t that hard- but that goes both ways. How willing are we to see our shit broken, our people killed? What happens if a half dozen MGs sited west of the airfield open up on a C17

In this fact set, Timmy’s got us by the balls. NATO has a brigade or so completely surrounded within half of a single strip airfield, which they can close at will and render unusable. No amount of air power would likely save those troops- though they could make it a very expensive proposition for the enemy. Still, that would be one of those Pyrrhic victories that make for great books but horrible memories.

So sometimes you negotiate with terrorists. This isn’t a child having a tantrum in a grocery store. It’s a heavily armed and highly motivated political actor that’s well positioned to give us our worst military drubbing since Pearl Harbour. Once our people and planes are out, then we can go back to our old games of figuring out who’s the enemy of our enemy and throwing some help their way.


----------



## Maxman1 (21 Aug 2021)

That was a joke. Hence, the Simpsons clip of Marge imagining Homer being shot for refusing to negotiate.


----------



## Czech_pivo (21 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, alternatively, you could elect them to run parts of your country after a 30+ year COIN campaign resulting in 3000+ dead/wounded:
> 
> View attachment 66134


Why am I seeing a pic of two mass murderers?


----------



## dimsum (21 Aug 2021)

Apparently from the former anchor of Global National, Kevin Newman (unless there's another Canadian journo named Kevin Newman...)









						Kevin Newman: Kabul shows the unflattering truth: Canada is slow, risk-averse and selfish
					

While French commandos in buses got their people out, we sent texts (in English) telling our friends to head to the airport on their own




					theline.substack.com


----------



## Haggis (21 Aug 2021)

Would it be fair to say that the Trudeau government did it's very best under difficult circumstances, but the Afghans needing our help are asking for more than Trudeau is able to give right now?


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Aug 2021)

The Afghans are just experiencing the targeted killings differently.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Aug 2021)

Haggis said:


> Would it be fair to say that the Trudeau government did it's very best under difficult circumstances, but the Afghans needing our help are asking for more than Trudeau is able to give right now?



I don’t think so. I think it would be fair to say that they were focused on other things (shaping an election majority) and really weren’t interested in helping, that is until the public polling made it clear they had to act, and then they did so making things about as difficult as you could for people in an impending genocidal sweep, and only after repeated shaming publicly do they eventually ease on the extreme requirements of filling out four separate online document and pre-registering their biometrics at the Canadian embassy in person, but all before the Canadian Embassy staff taking biometrics egressed the country while the Taliban were still on the advance down south, and then only returning to the country with military extraction assets after Canada fell entirely off the “here’s what each country is doing to help” list and public polling once again indicated that Canadians expected the Government to act…to where we are today…the Government clearly seized on the issue of…securing a majority in the election. 😠


----------



## MilEME09 (21 Aug 2021)

I think its sad the government is praising the first mew flight out had 180ish people on it, when the British and the French are packing them into C17s like sardines to get 600+ out per flight. This is embarrassing, and a lot of it is our own bureaucracy.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Aug 2021)

Haggis said:


> Would it be fair to say that the Trudeau government did it's very best under difficult circumstances, but the Afghans needing our help are asking for more than Trudeau is able to give right now?


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Aug 2021)

Mercedes Stephenson had a good explaination. The BLUF is that our CC-177s are just as capable to conduct Air to Air refueling, but we've never trained the capability (we also don't have boom tankers). Thus, our aircraft need to carry the full load of fuel to fly back to Kuwait (4 hours if I remember right from 2012 trip home), which significantly reduces how many people you can cram in. UK and US aircraft are tanking almost immediately on takeoff, so they can max out the cargo bay.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428750432533368842


----------



## dimsum (21 Aug 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> I think its sad the government is praising the first mew flight out had 180ish people on it, when the British and the French are packing them into C17s like sardines to get 600+ out per flight. This is embarrassing, and a lot of it is our own bureaucracy.


Was there another flight besides RCH871 that had that many?  That's the one famous for 823 pax.


----------



## dimsum (21 Aug 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Mercedes Stephenson had a good explaination. The BLUF is that our CC-177s are just as capable to conduct Air to Air refueling, but we've never trained the capability (we also don't have boom tankers). Thus, our aircraft need to carry the full load of fuel to fly back to Kuwait (4 hours if I remember right from 2012 trip home), which significantly reduces how many people you can cram in. UK and US aircraft are tanking almost immediately on takeoff, so they can max out the cargo bay.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428750432533368842


I will also add that (my guess) part of the reason they don't train on that is because we don't currently have boom-receptacle tankers, which the USAF uses.  We only have probe and drogue, which the USN uses.


----------



## dapaterson (21 Aug 2021)

Almost as if getting new tankers which can support both modes will enhance our strat lift capabilities as well as sustain our fighter capabilities...


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Aug 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Almost as if getting new tankers which can support both modes will enhance our strat lift capabilities as well as sustain our fighter capabilities...


You mean to replace the multi-decade old aircraft that we share ownership of with only one other nation, Iran? 🤔


----------



## dimsum (21 Aug 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Almost as if getting new tankers which can support both modes will enhance our strat lift capabilities as well as sustain our fighter capabilities...


Ahem:









						Airbus A330 MRTT - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## suffolkowner (21 Aug 2021)

I just hope that in the end we do right by as many Afghans as we can. It's been a bad start and a late start for sure


----------



## MilEME09 (21 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> Was there another flight besides RCH871 that had that many?  That's the one famous for 823 pax.











						Second Canadian flight leaves Kabul airport with 106 Afghans on board - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The Canadian flights are at the mercy of a dangerous and tenuous situation on the ground, but the airlift will continue as long as the security situation holds, officials said.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> You mean to replace the multi-decade old aircraft that we share ownership of with only one other nation, Iran? 🤔


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Aug 2021)

suffolkowner said:


> I just hope that in the end we do right by as many Afghans as we can. It's been a bad start and a late start for sure


I do too but if we were really serious about helping these people we would have 7 years ago, starting with the Conservatives ending the mission in Afghanistan and followed by the Liberal election win in 2015. No one in either government really cared all that much it seems.

6 years ago we vowed to bring in 30,000 Syrian refugees (who were relatively safe) because of a really sad picture of a drowned boy and it translated to political points and votes.

We're going to savesome of them _now_ because it's political points and votes if we don't.


----------



## suffolkowner (21 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> Ahem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It should be on the way as it was the only qualified bidder, so maybe a quicker than normal acquisition









						Airbus, and not Boeing, qualifies for RCAF future tanker - Skies Mag
					

Public Services and Procurement Canada on April 1 released a list of qualified suppliers to participate in the next phases of the RCAF’s Strategic Tanker Transport Capability project, and only Airbus Defence and Space's A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport made the cut.




					skiesmag.com


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


>


Iran Air and Mahan Air…although Iran Air’s A310s were put into long-term storage, so technically RCAF and Mahan Air (Iran) are now the only operators of the A310.


----------



## dimsum (21 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Iran Air and Mahan Air…although Iran Air’s A310s were put into long-term storage, so technically RCAF and Mahan Air (Iran) are now the only operators of the A310.


The Luftwaffe still operates it.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> The Luftwaffe still operates it.


Oops, _mea culpa_. I jumper the gun on their shelving the 310 with their joint order with Norway for the A330 MRTTs.

To quote a wise team of philosophers, “I’m not dead yet!”


----------



## brihard (21 Aug 2021)

Multiple media outlets are reporting that western Intel/militaries are aware of and adjusting posture due to threats from ISIS against Kabul airport/the evacuation.

Interestingly and concerningly, there’s video of an A400 shooting off multiple batches of flares while on its takeoff climb in the past day or so. Unsure whether that’s directly related.

ISIS and Taliban aren’t exactly buds. But Kabul is a big city.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> Multiple media outlets are reporting that western Intel/militaries are aware of and adjusting posture due to threats from ISIS against Kabul airport/the evacuation.
> 
> Interestingly and concerningly, there’s video of an A400 shooting off multiple batches of flares while on its takeoff climb in the past day or so. Unsure whether that’s directly related.
> 
> ISIS and Taliban aren’t exactly buds. But Kabul is a big city.



That's a big footprint that needs controlling, but probably won't.

Any idea how many SAMs the Taliban have hanging around these days?


----------



## Altair (21 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> That's a big footprint that needs controlling, but probably won't.
> 
> Any idea how many SAMs the Taliban have hanging around these days?


Do they need sams?

Launch enough mortars on a single runway airport and it achieves the same end result, no?


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> Do they need sams?
> 
> Launch enough mortars on a single runway airport and it achieves the same end result, no?



I'm out of my lane here but airfield hard pan is actually pretty tough to penetrate, apparently. They put alot of effort into making sure it can handle the impact of big jets.

Unless you have heavy artillery it would be difficult to wreck the tarmac itself.

Of course, one bad boy with a 23mm could mess things up in a major way so you wouldn't have to hole the runway to disrupt flights.


----------



## Altair (21 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm out of my lane here but airfield hard pan is actually pretty tough to penetrate, apparently. They put alot of effort into making sure it can handle the impact of big jets.
> 
> Unless you have heavy artillery it would be difficult to wreck the tarmac itself.
> 
> Of course, one bad boy with a 23mm could mess things up in a major way so you wouldn't have to hole the runway to disrupt flights.


I'm sure the runway itself would be fine.

I just don't see western nations allowing flights to take off under mortar fire knowing that just one lucky hit will kill hundreds of fleeing civilians, an air crew, and an expensive plane.

Even just hitting a staging area with all those refugees will be enough nightmare fuel for the daily newsreels for weeks.


----------



## Weinie (21 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm out of my lane here but airfield hard pan is actually pretty tough to penetrate, apparently. They put alot of effort into making sure it can handle the impact of big jets.
> 
> Unless you have heavy artillery it would be difficult to wreck the tarmac itself.
> 
> Of course, one bad boy with a 23mm could mess things up in a major way so you wouldn't have to hole the runway to disrupt flights.


They could put HMG's in several areas and shut Kabul airport down. 

It would serve no short term purpose, and harden already intensive criticism of the Taliban. They are fanatics, but not stupid.


----------



## Altair (21 Aug 2021)

Weinie said:


> They could put HMG's in several areas and shut Kabul airport down.
> 
> It would serve no short term purpose, and harden already intensive criticism of the Taliban. They are fanatics, but not stupid.


What would we do in response, invade Afghanistan?

I don't think we, the west, has any leverage.


----------



## brihard (21 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> What would we do in response, invade Afghanistan?
> 
> I don't think we, the west, has any leverage.



Some, but not much. I’ve opined repeatedly that a det of MMGs/HMGs could shut down the airport by hitting a transport on takeoff. The trouble is, ‘rogue’ elements could probably achieve this easily enough.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Aug 2021)

I hear standing on a runway with hundreds of people after the timings of when you'd be on the runway was posted for rocket-loving bad guys to read can be quite nerve wracking.


Couldn't the Taliban just fly drones into the jet engines?


----------



## Weinie (21 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I hear standing on a runway with hundreds of people after the timings of when you'd be on the runway was posted for rocket-loving bad guys to read can be quite nerve wracking.
> 
> 
> Couldn't the Taliban just fly drones into the jet engines?


You are all missing the point, Had the Taliban wanted to shut down the Kabul airport, they could have done so easily. There are other factors in play here, none of which we are privy to, but which we will all get to guess at in the next few weeks. The airport remains open, and folks are being evacuated.


----------



## brihard (21 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I hear standing on a runway with hundreds of people after the timings of when you'd be on the runway was posted for rocket-loving bad guys to read can be quite nerve wracking.
> 
> 
> Couldn't the Taliban just fly drones into the jet engines?



Ah, the ramp ceremony rocket attack… Dicks.

The one that impressed me was when they hit us to exactly coincide with the regular Wednesday alarm test that everyone knew was coming. That was nicely done.


----------



## CBH99 (21 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> Apparently from the former anchor of Global National, Kevin Newman (unless there's another Canadian journo named Kevin Newman...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair, there hasn't been a peep about CANSOF elements deployed, or what they have been up to.  As we all know, JTF2 is notoriously secretive about their operations, as is CSOR (minus some of their training partnerships, which they have been more public about.)

Just because we hear about British and French SOF elements going into the city to rescue people, doesn't mean CANSOF hasn't been doing the same - perhaps even a day or two before the British & French started doing so.  <hint hint>


Some of JTF2's finest moments - successful operations that we as a nation are immensely proud of, and that the international SOF community is in absolute admiration of - have only come to light _years_ after they happened.  It wouldn't surprise me one bit if those types of things are also occurring now, during all of this.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Aug 2021)

Weinie said:


> You are all missing the point, Had the Taliban wanted to shut down the Kabul airport,


They're keeping it open in the hopes that we take the ANA with us so the Taliban don't have to deal with trying to train them. 




brihard said:


> The one that impressed me was when they hit us to exactly coincide with the regular Wednesday alarm test that everyone knew was coming. That was nicely done.


Yup! If only our INT "there could be an IED on this road" updates were as punctual.


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yup! If only our INT "there could be an IED on this road" updates were as punctual.


White. Toyota. Corolla.


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> To be fair, there hasn't been a peep about CANSOF elements deployed, or what they have been up to.  As we all know, JTF2 is notoriously secretive about their operations, as is CSOR (minus some of their training partnerships, which they have been more public about.)
> 
> Just because we hear about British and French SOF elements going into the city to rescue people, doesn't mean CANSOF hasn't been doing the same - perhaps even a day or two before the British & French started doing so.  <hint hint>


I like this approach.  SEALS haven’t been honking their horn either.  


PuckChaser said:


> White. Toyota. Corolla.


Don’t forget yellow, or white and yellow. 😉


----------



## Haggis (21 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Just because we hear about British and French SOF elements going into the city to rescue people, doesn't mean CANSOF hasn't been doing the same - perhaps even a day or two before the British & French started doing so.


There were mentions in the media up to about a week ago that elements of CANSOF were involved in the planned evacuation.


----------



## MilEME09 (22 Aug 2021)

I wouldn't be surprised we suddenly had the route to the airport open up, and then in about 2040 have the files declassified that CANSOF and JTF2 were upto shit in the shadows


----------



## brihard (22 Aug 2021)

We’ll probably never get the stories… But in two years or so I suspect we’ll see a raft of citations from Rideau Hall reading “x members of CANSOFCOM were awarded y decoration. For reasons of operational security, further details cannot be disclosed.”


----------



## PPCLI Guy (22 Aug 2021)

The Line has a distressingly accurate and likely too flattering view of the Government's response.  We are no longer a serious country.

Kabul shows the unflattering truth: Canada is slow, risk-averse and selfish

Kevin Newman: Kabul shows the unflattering truth: Canada is slow, risk-averse and selfish While French commandos in buses got their people out, we sent texts (in English) telling our friends to head to the airport on their own





> _Note from The Line: Normally on Friday evenings we would send you our weekly dispatch. Due to the situation in Afghanistan, and the urgent need to get civilians to safety, we are delaying publication of our dispatch until Saturday morning to bring you this article by journalist Kevin Newman, who is currently active in efforts to get people safely out of Kabul._
> *By: Kevin Newman*
> It was a brazen move the first time, but twice?
> Ten buses screamed out of France’s embassy in Kabul early this week, past every Taliban checkpoint along the way, and according to eyewitnesses, zipped confidently through a back-entrance gate and straight onto the chaotic tarmac at Hamid Karzai International Airport. Five hundred exhausted and terrified passengers were then loaded onto a French military aircraft which quickly took off.
> ...





> _Kevin Newman is a retired journalist who reported from Afghanistan. He has been helping the veteran volunteer network trying to save their interpreters and families._


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2021)

OK, let's see if this works, then ...


> Canada will accelerate processing the families of interpreters and others who supported its mission in Afghanistan to quickly evacuate as many approved people as possible, Immigration Minister Marco Mendicino said Friday.
> 
> In an interview with The Canadian Press, Mendicino said his department is ramping up processing Afghan refugees by adding resources to the operation.
> 
> He said the government is not requiring passports or COVID-19 negative tests from the Afghan passengers and is deferring biometric screening to a third country, where it's safe for evacuees and government officials to be screened ...


Putin doesn't like the idea of willing-host processing countries next to his, so let's see who steps up to accept Canada's wait line.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Aug 2021)

Canadian SOF teams could distribute those red Friday t-shirts to help.




> While other nations send helicopters and armed escorts to rescue their citizens from the Taliban-controlled city, * Global Affairs Canada’s advice for evacuees to “wear red” and identify themselves as Canadians* apparently holds no sway with those tasked with gatekeeping the world’s most dangerous airport.











						Afghan, American troops turn away Canadians at Kabul airport
					

Canadian evacuees being told to 'wear red' at crushing airport checkpoint while allies run armored, airborne escorts out of besieged city




					torontosun.com
				





Don't forget to sew a Canadian flag on your backpacking bag.


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Aug 2021)

It should only be Official GoC ‘Sunny Ways’ endorsed clothing…I think Hudson’s Bay has the contract.  Red Canada mittens will really help them stand out!



The Canadian Government is quickly moving from ‘dithering’ and ‘pathetic’ to ‘outright shameful’ at pretty high speed… 😠


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Canadian SOF teams could distribute those red Friday t-shirts to help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Red Shirts.... that always went well for the shore parties:


----------



## YZT580 (22 Aug 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> It should only be Official GoC ‘Sunny Ways’ endorsed clothing…I think Hudson’s Bay has the contract.  Red Canada mittens will really help them stand out!
> 
> View attachment 66142
> 
> The Canadian Government is quickly moving from ‘dithering’ and ‘pathetic’ to ‘outright shameful’ at pretty high speed… 😠


except they are all made in China and they are shipping to the Taliban


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Canadian SOF teams could distribute those red Friday t-shirts to help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This ......


> ... *Global News reported RCAF crews were limited in the numbers they could transport by available seatbelts on the C-17s*, which by using side-mounted jump seats and pallet-mounted airliner seats are capable of carrying up to 188 people ...


🤦‍♀️


----------



## Weinie (22 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> ... *Global News reported RCAF crews were limited in the numbers they could transport by available seatbelts on the C-17s*, which by using side-mounted jump seats and pallet-mounted airliner seats are capable of carrying up to 188 people ...



WTF. Cram as many people on the plane as it can safely lift. I am pretty sure that the Afghans escaping are not going to launch a lawsuit over in-flight turbulence.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Aug 2021)

The risk of Taliban creating more problems for themselves by attacking aircraft directly is probably much lower than the risk of some renegades doing so in order to stir the pot.  Whether they've realized it or not, the Taliban has an interest in securing the "footprint" all by itself.  They'll get blamed, and they'll feel the heat, if anything happens.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (22 Aug 2021)

To whom it may concern: one RCAF C-17 just out of Kuwait - next stop Kabul. Info from ADS-B Exchange.


----------



## Kilted (22 Aug 2021)

Weinie said:


> WTF. Cram as many people on the plane as it can safely lift. I am pretty sure that the Afghans escaping are not going to launch a lawsuit over in-flight turbulence.


Don't underestimate the SJW "I will be offended on your behalf" crowd.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> We’ll probably never get the stories…



I think we can expect some new books by US Navy SEALs on this in a few weeks.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Aug 2021)

PPCLI Guy said:


> The Line has a distressingly accurate and likely too flattering view of the Government's response.  We are no longer a serious country.
> 
> Kabul shows the unflattering truth: Canada is slow, risk-averse and selfish
> 
> Kevin Newman: Kabul shows the unflattering truth: Canada is slow, risk-averse and selfish While French commandos in buses got their people out, we sent texts (in English) telling our friends to head to the airport on their own



cf



> TangoTwoBravo​
> Jun 17, 2021
> Add bookmark
> #444
> ...



Soldiers with what they can carry through the  doors of an aircraft.  82nd Abn.  USMC. 2 Para. French Special Forces.  Commandeering or buying local transport.

And lots of brass.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Aug 2021)

And reports of CAN SOF are out there now via officials speaking on background ...

_*"Canadian special forces operating outside Kabul airport to help stranded evacuees: officials"*_ (The Canadian Press)
_*"Special forces working outside the wire to escort Canadians, Afghans onto flights to Canada: official"*_ (CBC)
Specifically (quote from CBC piece) ...


> ... "In order to respond to questions about our efforts on the ground inside and outside of [Hamid Karzai International Airport], the CAF has made the decision to disclose that Canada's special operations forces have been and continue to work outside the confines of HKIA," a government official said on background.
> 
> "Members of Canada's special operations forces are working relentlessly to bring as many Canadian citizens and eligible Afghan nationals and their families through the security gates to waiting aircrafts," the official said during a briefing for journalists Monday ...


That said, RUS state media is reporting that the AFG civil aviation authority's calling the Kabul airport closed - here's the authority's FB post (posted last night) in Persian/Farsi. Google translation below


> As you know, all flights at Hamid Karzai International Airport are suspended until further notice; Therefore, passengers and compatriots who intend to travel to the provinces or abroad from this airport are informed that until the beginning of the flights, you will not normally arrive at the airport to avoid congestion and misfortune. The Civil Aviation Authority is working on a regular procedure and is trying to start the process of resuming flights in the domestic and foreign sectors. It is worth mentioning that those who have documents for legal travel will be contacted by the relevant institutions to travel abroad.


----------



## CBH99 (23 Aug 2021)

Is the aviation authority’s posts intended for civilian flights?  Or is this being applied to all flights?


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Is the aviation authority’s posts intended for civilian flights?  Or is this being applied to all flights?


Don't know enough about the authority itself, so given the "civil" in the name, I'll go with civilian flights only right this second - happy to be corrected, though.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Aug 2021)

It would generally be taken to mean CAA responsibility over civilian (non-Mil contracted) flights.


----------



## Altair (23 Aug 2021)

CBH99 said:


> To be fair, there hasn't been a peep about CANSOF elements deployed, or what they have been up to.  As we all know, JTF2 is notoriously secretive about their operations, as is CSOR (minus some of their training partnerships, which they have been more public about.)
> 
> Just because we hear about British and French SOF elements going into the city to rescue people, doesn't mean CANSOF hasn't been doing the same - perhaps even a day or two before the British & French started doing so.  <hint hint>
> 
> ...





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/special-forces-outside-the-wire-kabul-1.6150067
		


Seems like they are working outside of the airport. 

No idea in what capacity, but like you said, we probably are not meant to know.


----------



## Czech_pivo (24 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/special-forces-outside-the-wire-kabul-1.6150067
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll be 100% happy if they continue doing what they're doing and we never hear another word about it for years to come. Quietly go about their business, get out as many as we can and then call it a day.  Achieving this strengthens their ability at the end of the day to maintain, increase their funding/numbers so that the next time the shit hits the fan on a far more serious level, they will be ready and have all that they need to get the job done again.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Aug 2021)

Honestly I’d prefer this wasn’t made public. Shadow warriors work best in the shadows.
Having said that I certainly hope that they can evacuate all they can and return home safely.


----------



## Altair (24 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Honestly I’d prefer this wasn’t made public. Shadow warriors work best in the shadows.


Yes, problem being that people were assuming CAF members were not doing anything.

This board is more knowledgeable about military matters than most, and reading back the same assumptions were being made.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Aug 2021)

Biden announced that 31 August is the deadline


----------



## Remius (24 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Honestly I’d prefer this wasn’t made public. Shadow warriors work best in the shadows.
> Having said that I certainly hope that they can evacuate all they can and return home safely.


I bet that the Taliban is well aware of who is out and about.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> Yes, problem being that people were assuming CAF members were not doing anything.
> 
> This board is more knowledgeable about military matters than most, and reading back the same assumptions were being made.



Never underestimate the power of public opinion to help remove some roadblocks for troops on the ground. 

It's a double edged sword, of course, but can be wildly helpful nonetheless. Especially during an election campaign.


----------



## Altair (24 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Never underestimate the power of public opinion to help remove some roadblocks for troops on the ground.
> 
> It's a double edged sword, of course, but can be wildly helpful nonetheless. Especially during an election campaign.


not sure if anything changed or if they just decided to disclose it.



> In order to respond to questions about efforts by Canadian Armed Forces on the ground inside and outside Hamid Karzai International Airport (HKIA), the decision was made "to disclose that Canada's special operations forces have been and continue to work outside the confines of HKIA," a government official said on background.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Aug 2021)

Interesting developments - from this AUS media piece:


> Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid says the Taliban are no longer allowing Afghan nationals*** to go to Kabul airport because of the chaotic situation there.  At a news conference, he said crowds at the airport should go home and their security would be guaranteed ... “We ask the Americans,” he said. “Don’t encourage Afghans to leave … We need their talent.” ...





> ... US Central Intelligence Agency chief William Burns held a secret meeting in Kabul with Taliban co-founder Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, according to the_ Washington Post.  _The Monday meeting, which if confirmed will have been the highest-level encounter between the Islamist group and the Biden administration since the militants’ return to power, came as efforts to evacuate thousands of people from Taliban-controlled Afghanistan became increasingly urgent ... _The Washington Post_, which cited anonymous US sources for the meeting, did not the content of the discussions between the Taliban co-founder and the CIA boss ...


** *- PAK media is reporting foreigners are being allowed into the airport


----------



## Czech_pivo (24 Aug 2021)

Anyone know anything about this 'buffer zone' where some Afghan special forces are between the Tally and us?  Do you think that the plan (incentive for these guys to hold in place) is to bring these guys out on the last few planes?

Also, I find it fascinating that Karzai is still in Kabul.  Gotta wonder if the plan is a helo snatch and grab for him at the very end as well.  I can't imagine him (and his daughters) wanting to stay behind and start living in the 7th century again.


----------



## Altair (24 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> Anyone know anything about this 'buffer zone' where some Afghan special forces are between the Tally and us?  Do you think that the plan (incentive for these guys to hold in place) is to bring these guys out on the last few planes?
> 
> Also, I find it fascinating that Karzai is still in Kabul.  Gotta wonder if the plan is a helo snatch and grab for him at the very end as well.  I can't imagine him (and his daughters) wanting to stay behind and start living in the 7th century again.


I think Karzai is going to stay good or bad. He is on record saying he wasn't going to run away.

That said, I think his days are numbered. Once the taliban disarm your security and take it over, you are living the last days of the Romanovs in Yekaterinburg


----------



## YZT580 (24 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> not sure if anything changed or if they just decided to disclose it.


I seem to recall the libs trying to force the conservative government into revealing the presence of the American Embassy staff in our embassy in Tehran.  Seems they make a habit of blabbing


----------



## Czech_pivo (24 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> I think Karzai is going to stay good or bad. He is on record saying he wasn't going to run away.
> 
> That said, I think his days are numbered. Once the taliban disarm your security and take it over, you are living the last days of the Romanovs in Yekaterinburg


I feel for his daughters and wife


----------



## Altair (24 Aug 2021)

YZT580 said:


> I seem to recall the libs trying to force the conservative government into revealing the presence of the American Embassy staff in our embassy in Tehran.  Seems they make a habit of blabbing


Were you not one of the people being critical for them supposedly not going outside the wire?



YZT580 said:


> and they were planning in advance and working in advance.  What a contrast to the 'so-called' leaders on this side of the Atlantic


----------



## YZT580 (24 Aug 2021)

Altair said:


> Were you not one of the people being critical for them supposedly not going outside the wire?


The comment was with regards to the government blabbing about our troops efforts implying that they have put a great deal of effort into our response.  Previous remarks were regarding the yanks operations and there are plenty of others who have been watching with raised eyebrows.  The two thoughts are not related.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Aug 2021)

Let's see what happens ....
_"__Trudeau says Canada prepared to stay in Kabul after Aug. 31 deadline following G7 meeting__ -  _​_The Taliban has said that the deadline is firm and hinted at consequences if it is not met ..."_


----------



## Altair (24 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Let's see what happens ....
> _"__Trudeau says Canada prepared to stay in Kabul after Aug. 31 deadline following G7 meeting__ -  _​_The Taliban has said that the deadline is firm and hinted at consequences if it is not met ..."_


I doubt it, but wouldn't that be something amazing to see.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Aug 2021)

Hmmm - this from U.K. media ....
_"Up to 100 Afghan evacuees flown out of war-torn Kabul are on intelligence agency watch lists, US official warns, as it's revealed one passenger flown out to Qatar has potential ties to ISIS"_​


----------



## Kirkhill (25 Aug 2021)

It could be useful to keep at least one of the Five Eyes in Kabul.


----------



## Czech_pivo (25 Aug 2021)

Just saw this breaking on the G&M site but I don’t have access past the paywall. Can anybody shed more info on this?


Canadian special forces appear to ignore Afghans with exit documents at Kabul airport, video shows​







						Canadian special forces appear to ignore Afghans with exit documents at Kabul airport, video shows
					

Afghan refugees are desperately seeking to get into Kabul airport during the final wave of evacuation flights before the United States withdraws on Aug. 31




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> Just saw this breaking on the G&M site but I don’t have access past the paywall. Can anybody shed more info on this?
> 
> 
> Canadian special forces appear to ignore Afghans with exit documents at Kabul airport, video shows​
> ...


Copy of the article attached to share for the purpose of research, private study and education IAW the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act_.

I'd be careful about reading too much into this right this second, given we can't see exactly what's on the screens being shown or whether the documentation is even complete.  Could be anyone showing anything.  #CaveatLector

Also, this from the latest version of the story @ that link:


> *Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says Canada will have to withdraw its special forces soldiers and halt rescue flights at the Kabul airport within days as the August 31 deadline for the pullout of American soldiers is rapidly approaching.  *
> 
> Mr. Sajjan told a media briefing Wednesday that U.S. Secretary of Defence Lloyd Austin has made it clear to Canada and other allies involved in the evaluation mission in Afghanistan that they will have to leave Hamid Karzai International Airport before U.S. forces depart at the end of the month.
> 
> “Drawing down takes considerable time. It is not done overnight and comes with significant risk. As the Americans finalize their drawdown to meet their deadline, partners nations including Canada must draw down our troops, assets and aircraft ahead of the Americans,” Mr. Sajjan said. “These moves are necessary for the US to safely maintain control of the airport until their depart.” ...


----------



## Czech_pivo (25 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Copy of the article attached to share for the purpose of research, private study and education IAW the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act_.
> 
> I'd be careful about reading too much into this right this second, given we can't see exactly what's on the screens being shown or whether the documentation is even complete.  Could be anyone showing anything.  #CaveatLector
> 
> Also, this from the latest version of the story @ that link:


Truly hope that this article is inaccurate or this is not good news. I hope that its not a case of, 'we have this many flights left over X-days and we still have Y-many Canadian citizens or perm. res. to get out, as a result we are only taking these people first and then and only then, if we have space available on the remaining flights we'll take out the others..'


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Hmmm - this from U.K. media ....
> _"Up to 100 Afghan evacuees flown out of war-torn Kabul are on intelligence agency watch lists, US official warns, as it's revealed one passenger flown out to Qatar has potential ties to ISIS"_​


A bit more nuance ...


> Security screeners at Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar have detected that at least one of the Afghans who was evacuated from Kabul Airport has potential ties to ISIS, a U.S. official confirmed to Defense One.
> 
> Moreover, the Defense Department’s Automated Biometric Identification System has flagged up to 100 of the 7,000 Afghans evacuated as prospective recipients of Special Immigration Visas as potential matches to intelligence agency watch lists, a second official said ...


Meanwhile, howzitt going in Qatar?

_*"Troops in Qatar running on fumes as CENTCOM bases continue to take in Afghan evacuees" *_(Stars & Stripes)
*" "A living hell": Leaked email describes Afghan refugee conditions"* (axios.com)


----------



## Czech_pivo (25 Aug 2021)

Seeing this on CNN -

"
On Tuesday, as he confirmed his decision not to extend the evacuation deadline beyond August 31, President Joe Biden acknowledged the growing threat that the group poses to the airport.
"Every day we're on the ground is another day we know that ISIS-K is seeking to target the airport and attack both US and allied forces and innocent civilians," the President said.
As a result, *the Biden administration is in touch with US allies about securing the Kabul airport and efforts to keep it up and running*, a senior State Department official said Wednesday. *It is unclear if there will be any agreement to keep the airport open by the time the US military leaves."*









						Approximately 1,500 people who may be Americans are left in Afghanistan, Blinken says | CNN Politics
					

Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Wednesday that there are approximately 1,500 people who may be Americans left in Afghanistan as the United States' presence on the ground nears its end.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Aug 2021)

The situation is deteriorating rapidly IMO. This has the potential to be a huge human tragedy - hell it already is. It could get worse.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Aug 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Couldn't the Taliban just fly drones into the jet engines?



Why waste drones?   Bag of nuts and bolts, big enough balloon...passive kill/damage system.

Lasers too (they were using them on coalition aircraft...usually out of Camel City near ASAB during IMPACT)...MANPADs are way more expensive than "bolt balloons and a few tracers".

If they have MANPADs, they'll keep 'em.  They're like a junkyard dog...never really sure where they are, so you have to assume they're everywhere in the junkyard.  They'll want them for...the future.

Seeing a lot of articles on Minister Monef and the "our brothers" comment...


----------



## dimsum (25 Aug 2021)

Some four-legged furry folks hoping to leave as well:









						An Animal Rescue Group Is Racing To Get Hundreds Of Pets Out Of Afghanistan By Aug. 31
					

Kabul Small Animal Rescue's American director is raising money to airlift more than 200 dogs and cats, the group's staff and their families before foreign troops leave at the end of the month.




					www.npr.org


----------



## MilEME09 (25 Aug 2021)

'I've got to run for my life': Thousands stranded, advocates upset as Canada ends evacuation flights from Kabul
					

As of Wednesday, Canada has airlifted more than 2,700 people out of Kabul, including Afghan refugees, Canadian citizens, permanent residents and citizens of…




					nationalpost.com
				




Slow out the gate will mean the deaths of many, to bad we didn't retain Bagram


----------



## PPCLI Guy (25 Aug 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> 'I've got to run for my life': Thousands stranded, advocates upset as Canada ends evacuation flights from Kabul
> 
> 
> As of Wednesday, Canada has airlifted more than 2,700 people out of Kabul, including Afghan refugees, Canadian citizens, permanent residents and citizens of…
> ...


We?


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Aug 2021)

Note to Team Red:  when the _Toronto Star_ editorial board says it's time to step up ... (highlights mine)


> ... it’s obvious that the Afghanistan crisis has emerged as a trip wire for Trudeau, one that’s becoming more barbed with each passing moment. A month has passed since the government backtracked on its ill-considered 72-hour deadline for Afghan interpreters and others who worked in support of Canadians to file resettlement paperwork. That shemozzle revealed wonky bureaucracy at work.
> 
> And *it was a signal to Trudeau to prioritize the Afghan file. This he has failed to do.*
> 
> ...


Text also attached, under Fair Dealing terms of Canada's Copyright Act, if link doesn't work.


----------



## MilEME09 (26 Aug 2021)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-afghanistan-last-flight-1.6153899
		


And that's a wrap for us, can't help but feel bad for everyone left behind.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Aug 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-afghanistan-last-flight-1.6153899
> 
> 
> 
> And that's a wrap for us, can't help but feel bad for everyone left behind.


I heard General Eyre on the radio - the fucking politicians let him and the CAF dangle in the wind. Where is the PM? Where is the MND? Oh I forgot its election time!!! (sarcasm intended), THE WORST GOVERNMENT I have ever seen in this country.


----------



## MilEME09 (26 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I heard General Eyre on the radio - the fucking politicians let him and the CAF dangle in the wind. Where is the PM? Where is the MND? Oh I forgot its election time!!! (sarcasm intended), THE WORST GOVERNMENT I have ever seen in this country.


September 1st the hunt will begin for anyone left who helped NATO, we had a chance to save them, but politics got in the way. Pretty sure if you asked for an all volunteer potential suicide mission to get the remainder out, you would get a battalion or two.


----------



## McG (26 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I heard General Eyre on the radio - the fucking politicians let him and the CAF dangle in the wind. Where is the PM? Where is the MND? Oh I forgot its election time!!! (sarcasm intended), THE WORST GOVERNMENT I have ever seen in this country.


I watched his presentation when it was being broadcast live. Maybe it was a message that a PM or minister should have delivered, but Eyre delivered the message that the country needed to hear. He nailed it, and anyone else would have dropped the ball.


----------



## MilEME09 (26 Aug 2021)

McG said:


> I watched his presentation when it was being broadcast live. Maybe it was a message that a PM or minister should have delivered, but Eyre delivered the message that the country needed to hear. He nailed it, and anyone else would have dropped the ball.


I enjoyed a non political press conference


----------



## Fishbone Jones (27 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Let's see what happens ....
> _"__Trudeau says Canada prepared to stay in Kabul after Aug. 31 deadline following G7 meeting__ -  _​_The Taliban has said that the deadline is firm and hinted at consequences if it is not met ..."_


So much for his bluster and bullshit. Many, many still there and won't  be coming out on Canadian aircraft, if at all. Just more lies from our PM. He obviously had zero grasp of the situation or he just doesn't  care.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Aug 2021)

Where Canada stands on The Big Board of reported evacuees so far (source - article last updated 0726E/1126UTC today)


----------



## dimsum (27 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Where Canada stands on The Big Board of reported evacuees so far (source - article last updated 0726E/1126UTC today)
> View attachment 66210


I'm actually surprised Qatar and UAE took that many people.  Or is it just where they're processed, not final destination?


----------



## Remius (27 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I heard General Eyre on the radio - the fucking politicians let him and the CAF dangle in the wind. Where is the PM? Where is the MND? Oh I forgot its election time!!! (sarcasm intended), THE WORST GOVERNMENT I have ever seen in this country.


Honestly I would rather hear from Eyre and some folks from GAC.  They have a better grasp of what’s happening.  The PM or the MND wouldn’t be adding much to the conversation I think.  Every time they open their mouths it creates useless noise.


----------



## Czech_pivo (27 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Where Canada stands on The Big Board of reported evacuees so far (source - article last updated 0726E/1126UTC today)
> View attachment 66210


Where are the Japanese? Where are all the South Americans? South Africans?


----------



## Mills Bomb (27 Aug 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I heard General Eyre on the radio - the fucking politicians let him and the CAF dangle in the wind. Where is the PM? Where is the MND? Oh I forgot its election time!!! (sarcasm intended), THE WORST GOVERNMENT I have ever seen in this country.



Is there any link to where General Eyre officially says the PM and politicians left him in the wind?

I thought they would have hand picked someone that likely won't cause them more trouble at this point after the fiasco with several previous CDS.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Aug 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> Where are the Japanese? ...


Planes are standing by ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Aug 2021)

dimsum said:


> I'm actually surprised Qatar and UAE took that many people.  Or is it just where they're processed, not final destination?


The article says both countries "helped evacuate", so it sounds like throughput more than anything.

The latest Big Board from Reuters


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Aug 2021)

Meanwhile, in the U.K. ...


> "Dozens of Afghan interpreters who worked for the British Army have been told they will not be allowed into the UK because they are a “danger to [national] security,” The Independent can reveal.
> 
> The men had been cleared for relocation here by the Ministry of Defence following years of service.
> 
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Aug 2021)

Oh my sweet fuck, really? That’s a fucking horrible thing to do, I can imagine there’s a few troops pissed at this decision,
Meanwhile, in the U.K. .


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Aug 2021)

A brighter note the terp that served with my son’s platoon is safe in the USA. The troops are organizing to get him here to Canada


----------



## Kirkhill (28 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, in the U.K. ...


JFHC.


----------



## CBH99 (29 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, in the U.K. ...


- Afghans volunteer to help British Army.  In return, these individuals are offered special visas/clearance to relocate to the UK.  (Sound familiar?)

-  Interpreters are offered this opportunity for them and their immediate families because by working with the west in our campaign against the Taliban, they have made themselves and their families a target for the Taliban.  

-  Individuals are pre-cleared, meaning some form of security check had been conducted.  Or, pre-clearance was granted in return for their help.  They held up their end of the bargain, yet for some reason are STILL in Afghanistan.  (Again, does this sound familiar?)

- The Taliban re-emerge in force as the west withdraws it’s final troops.  The ANSF basically disappear (it now appears that was orchestrated inside the government at the most senior levels, before they jumped ship to safer places) - leaving nobody in Afghanistan to help the interpreters or protect them if need be.  

-  They are then told that they will not be relocated because they are a potential threat to national security, on the same day the UK has its final evacuation flight.  (But the hundreds, or even thousands, of random Afghans who were taken out because they were ‘vulnerable’ are totally fine…)


That’s an ice cold stab in the back.  

A blatant ‘F**k You, we aren’t honouring anything we promised & we aren’t worried because you might be dead soon, and even if you aren’t we don’t have a way to get you here even if a court orders us to let you in.  Good luck chump.’


At least our government’s extremely last minute action was based on sheer incompetence…


----------



## MilEME09 (29 Aug 2021)

And they wonder why people do not trust the west......we stopped putting words into action for everyone's benefit along time ago


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Aug 2021)

This out from 98 countries, including U.S. & Canada ....


> We are all committed to ensuring that our citizens, nationals and residents, employees, Afghans who have worked with us and those who are at risk can continue to travel freely to destinations outside Afghanistan.  We have received assurances from the Taliban that all foreign nationals and any Afghan citizen with travel authorization from our countries will be allowed to proceed in a safe and orderly manner to points of departure and travel outside the country.  We will continue issuing travel documentation to designated Afghans, and we have the clear expectation of and commitment from the Taliban that they can travel to our respective countries.  We note the public statements of the Taliban confirming this understanding.


----------



## brihard (29 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> This out from 98 countries, including U.S. & Canada ....


That’s a nicely worded “fuck around…”, but I’m not convinced it comes with a “…and find out”.


----------



## OldTanker (29 Aug 2021)

Considering how this government has treated its own veterans, why would be surprised at the way they treat "foreigners", regardless of their service to our military. I expect the Afghans are simply asking for more than this government can afford. Excuse the disgust and cynicism.


----------



## Haggis (29 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> That’s a nicely worded “fuck around…”, but I’m not convinced it comes with a “…and find out”.


Wasn't the first "...and find out." delivered via drone a day or so ago?  Daesh/IS-K/ ISIS  plays a hardball game of tit-for-tat so this could escalate.


----------



## brihard (29 Aug 2021)

Haggis said:


> Wasn't the first "...and find out." delivered via drone a day or so ago?  Daesh/IS-K/ ISIS  plays a hardball game of tit-for-tat so this could escalate.


Yeah, I’m talking about Timmy.


----------



## Haggis (29 Aug 2021)

brihard said:


> Yeah, I’m talking about Timmy.


Of course. The people who failed to adequately secure  their own citizens and foreign nationals at HKIA against an attack by the other people.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Aug 2021)

Haggis said:


> Wasn't the first "...and find out." delivered via drone a day or so ago?  Daesh/IS-K/ ISIS  plays a hardball game of tit-for-tat so this could escalate.



I'm betting that dude killed was a drone from Sector 7G.
​


----------



## MilEME09 (30 Aug 2021)

Ukrainian troops rescue Canada-bound Afghans in daring operation
					

Soldiers venture into Kabul to save translators who worked for Canadian media, military




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




ukraine stepping up where we do not


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Aug 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Ukrainian troops rescue Canada-bound Afghans in daring operation
> 
> 
> Soldiers venture into Kabul to save translators who worked for Canadian media, military
> ...


Interesting excerpt from the article, about 1/2 way in ....


> ... Two previous efforts, planned by the Canadian military before its departure from Kabul airport, failed to get Mr. Sharaf’s group into the airport, as did another attempt organized by the U.S. State Department. Those operations had relied on the Afghans and their families being able to reach designated meeting points near the airport gates, which proved impossible amid the chaos outside the facility, where thousands of Afghans have congregated in hopes of being airlifted out of Kabul, which fell to the extremist Taliban on Aug. 15.
> 
> The Ukrainian operation succeeded where others had collapsed because the Ukrainian military deployed special forces troops into the city on foot to conduct the rescue ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Aug 2021)

Where Canada stands on The Big Board of reported evacuees so far (source - article last updated 0906E/1306UTC today)


----------



## Colin Parkinson (30 Aug 2021)

I can imagine Canadian SF gritting their teeth awaiting our politicians to make up their minds.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Aug 2021)

Plan B?

_*"Canada to resettle 5,000 Afghan refugees housed at U.S. bases"*_ (Globe & Mail)
_*"Canada to take in 5,000 Afghan refugees evacuated by the U.S. - minister"*_ (Reuters)
_*"Canada to bring in 5K Afghan refugees evacuated by U.S. military: officials"*_ (Global)


----------



## Remius (31 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Plan B?
> 
> _*"Canada to resettle 5,000 Afghan refugees housed at U.S. bases"*_ (Globe & Mail)
> _*"Canada to take in 5,000 Afghan refugees evacuated by the U.S. - minister"*_ (Reuters)
> _*"Canada to bring in 5K Afghan refugees evacuated by U.S. military: officials"*_ (Global)


Maybe or maybe was in the works as a condition of getting folks out for us.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Plan B?
> 
> _*"Canada to resettle 5,000 Afghan refugees housed at U.S. bases"*_ (Globe & Mail)
> _*"Canada to take in 5,000 Afghan refugees evacuated by the U.S. - minister"*_ (Reuters)
> _*"Canada to bring in 5K Afghan refugees evacuated by U.S. military: officials"*_ (Global)


…perhaps trying to catch the horses after they bolted from the corral, i.e. try to be seen to be doing something substantive now, given the horrendously unfocused government effort over the last several weeks.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Aug 2021)

Remius said:


> Maybe or maybe was in the works as a condition of getting folks out for us.





Good2Golf said:


> …perhaps trying to catch the horses after they bolted from the corral, i.e. try to be seen to be doing something substantive now, given the horrendously unfocused government effort over the last several weeks.


... or maybe something somewhere in between.


----------



## daftandbarmy (31 Aug 2021)

Strangled by red tape.... a familiar theme, sadly:

Why Canada failed to rescue 'a hell of a lot more' Afghans, according to former generals​
The Liberal government could have evacuated many more Afghans from the troubled region had it streamlined its cumbersome bureaucratic process and maintained a stronger military and diplomatic presence, former top Canadian military commanders and experts say.

While the Canadian government was able to evacuate more than 3,700 people from Kabul, the number should have been "a hell of a lot more," said retired major-general David Fraser, who commanded more than 2,000 NATO coalition troops during Operation Medusa in the Afghan province of Kandahar in 2006.

"The international world was surprised by the speed at which the Taliban took over. And [the Canadian government] applied the bureaucracy they had for normal operations," Fraser said.

Fraser, along with retired major-generals Denis Thompson and Dean Milner are all volunteering to help extract Afghan interpreters from Afghanistan.

They are all former task-force commanders of Afghanistan, and have blamed government bureaucracy for gumming up the system and creating obstacles for Afghans trying to flee the country.

Those Afghans include former interpreters and support staff as well as their families who are now at risk of Taliban arrest or worse for having worked with the Canadian military and other organizations. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/afghanistan-canada-taliban-evacuation-1.6155596


----------



## Retired AF Guy (31 Aug 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I can imagine Canadian SF gritting their teeth awaiting our politicians to make up their minds.



I think Trudeau/Butts/PMO had their minds made up right from the beginning: "Take it slow, don't take any unnecessary chances - we don't want any soldiers getting killed/wounded just as a Federal election has started."

My 2 cents..


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, in the U.K. ...


Looks like there _may_ have been a bit of a turnaround in the U.K. - this from the Home Office there ...


> A significant cross-government effort is underway, dubbed ‘Operation Warm Welcome’, to ensure Afghans arriving in the UK receive the vital support they need to rebuild their lives, find work, pursue education and integrate into their local communities.
> 
> As part of the New Plan for Immigration, the government announced that those coming to the UK through resettlement routes would receive immediate indefinite leave to remain, and today (September 1) the Home Secretary has announced that this will apply to Afghans who worked closely with the British military and UK Government in Afghanistan, and risked their lives in doing so, meaning they can now stay in the UK without any time restrictions.
> 
> People already relocated to the UK under the Afghanistan Relocations and Assistance Policy (ARAP) will be able to apply free of charge to convert their temporary leave into indefinite leave. This will give Afghans the certainty and stability to rebuild their lives with unrestricted rights to work and the option to apply for British citizenship in the future ...


Can't tell yet what's happening to those who got letters saying they're a security risk.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Sep 2021)

Looks like more than one government sat on this one  - text also attached, in case link doesn't work, IAW the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act


> Afghan employees of Canada’s embassy in Kabul had urged Ottawa in 2012 to set up a special immigration program because of the risks they faced working for the Canadian government. But it took almost a decade for such a program to be implemented in July of this year, as the Taliban were already on an offensive sweeping through Afghanistan to power.
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...


Woulda, coulda, shoulda ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Sep 2021)

Also in this morning's MSM ....
*"Canada’s envoy left Kabul in July as Taliban advanced and stranded Afghan staff sought Ottawa’s help"*


> The Canadian ambassador to Afghanistan took time off in mid-July as Taliban militants were sweeping across the country and former Afghan employees of the embassy in Kabul were begging for help to get them and their families to safety in Canada.
> 
> Reid Sirrs, who is now in Ottawa but remains envoy to Afghanistan, went on leave because he needed to take a short break from the stress of working in a dangerous country, Global Affairs said Wednesday.
> 
> ...


Text also attached in case link doesn't work, IAW Fair Dealing provisions of Copyright Act


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Also in this morning's MSM ....
> *"Canada’s envoy left Kabul in July as Taliban advanced and stranded Afghan staff sought Ottawa’s help"*
> 
> Text also attached in case link doesn't work, IAW Fair Dealing provisions of Copyright Act


Coward. That’s the only word I have for him.


----------



## CBH99 (2 Sep 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Ukrainian troops rescue Canada-bound Afghans in daring operation
> 
> 
> Soldiers venture into Kabul to save translators who worked for Canadian media, military
> ...


Absolutely fantastic job of the Ukrainians!  I had no idea Ukraine even had military forces deployed to Afghanistan in support of NATO's efforts, let alone were evacuating citizens & contracted workers of various NATO countries out of the airport after our own evac flights stopped.

Those Ukrainian troops really stepped up executing this operation, especially after most NATO countries have wrapped up their evac flights - but to adapt & accommodate them so quickly once they arrived in Ukraine just pushes what they did even more 'above & beyond'.  
Absolute respect for them, reading that article.




daftandbarmy said:


> Strangled by red tape.... a familiar theme, sadly:
> 
> Why Canada failed to rescue 'a hell of a lot more' Afghans​While the Canadian government was able to evacuate more than 3,700 people from Kabul, the number should have been "a hell of a lot more," said retired major-general David Fraser, who commanded more than 2,000 NATO coalition troops during Operation Medusa in the Afghan province of Kandahar in 2006.
> 
> ...





daftandbarmy said:


> Those Afghans include former interpreters and support staff as well as their families who are now at risk of Taliban arrest or worse for having worked with the Canadian military and other organizations.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/afghanistan-canada-taliban-evacuation-1.6155596


If Fraser steps up & gets things done in regards to this matter, it would really help me to respect him more. 

Not that he is a bad guy or anything - he seems relatively nice in his interviews, and the two times I met him.  But he wasn’t the right person for that job, at that time - and in my own humble opinion demonstrated poor leadership and poor performance in his role.   (My own opinion is all.)




The Bread Guy said:


> Looks like more than one government sat on this one





The Bread Guy said:


> Woulda, coulda, shoulda ...


we woulda had a lot less people to evacuate if we had relocated them almost a decade ago when we said we would. 

we coulda done it, but we didn’t have any motivation or incentive to.  They had served their purpose, had no real way of forcing us to honour our agreements, and were very easy to screw over by essentially just ghosting them. 

we shoulda relocated them shortly after our combat mission ended, with their immediate families.  (We already had the information handy at the time, and we already had their locations and contact information as they were imbedded with our troops.  Granting them a special visa would have been easy as hell.)



sorry, I know I’ve said the above before
0.02


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Sep 2021)

Apparently Canada isn’t the only nation that screws it’s own:









						Stranded former British soldier leading 400 Afghans through Taliban territory in bid for freedom
					

Ben Slater helped dozens of people get out of Afghanistan via airlift, but when he asked officials to help evacuate himself and staff, no visas were provided




					nationalpost.com


----------



## suffolkowner (2 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Apparently Canada isn’t the only nation that screws it’s own:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The future can not be good when there are so few examples of basic leadership and moral authority not just in the business world or Canada but the malaise has infected the entirety of western democracies


----------



## CountDC (3 Sep 2021)

The saddest part of this is that I am not surprised.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Sep 2021)

Couple of interesting tidbits - highlights mine ......


> U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal is urging the Canadian government to help find a safe third country to land charter flights stranded at Mazar-i-Sharif International Airport in northern Afghanistan, including people with Canadian travel documents.
> 
> The Democratic senator, who serves on the Senate Armed Services Committee, has been working with NGOs and veterans groups to get two flights carrying about 705 people out of Mazar-i-Sharif.
> 
> Among those awaiting passage out of Afghanistan on the two charter planes are *nine people with Canadian exit visas and a permanent resident of Canada. They were unable to board evacuation flights from Kabul and made the dangerous trek to the northern city* ...





> For David Lavery, the fall of Afghanistan comes with a soundtrack of men yelling, women weeping and babies wailing — all coalescing into a din of despair that echoes in his mind.
> 
> That cacophony surrounded him in the days after the Taliban took the Afghan capital, as the former soldier walked the perimeter of the Kabul airport searching for the Canadians and Afghan allies he was tasked with evacuating.
> 
> ...


----------



## Czech_pivo (9 Sep 2021)

Canadian Dave and his efforts to save as many as he and his team could.

To me, his actions should result in an 'Order of Canada' but what do I know.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-dave-former-soldier-help-rescue-afghan-refugees-1.6168082


----------



## Remius (9 Sep 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> Canadian Dave and his efforts to save as many as he and his team could.
> 
> To me, his actions should result in an 'Order of Canada' but what do I know.
> 
> ...


You can nominate him.






						Nominate Someone
					

Do you know someone who’s changing the game? A role model whose achievements stand above the rest?




					www.gg.ca


----------



## Czech_pivo (9 Sep 2021)

Remius said:


> You can nominate him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I might just do that.
According to this article this guy was the only CDN at HKIA for what 4/5 days before we had any one else on the ground.  He certainly was not getting paid a penny from the Feds to be doing this.  He most likely had no official title, role or legitimacy while he was there. To me, its quite something, it talks about a sense of duty, a sense of responsibility, a sense of doing the right thing under less than ideal circumstances with no expectation of any personal gain.

EDIT: I am looking into the process and have reached out to some of the individuals stated in the CBC story.  I am more than open for any other help/suggestions that any of you may be willing to offer.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Sep 2021)

Few more makin' it out (including Canadians) ...


> An estimated 200 foreigners, including Americans, left Afghanistan on a commercial flight out of Kabul on Thursday, the first such large-scale departure since U.S. and other forces completed their frantic withdrawal over a week ago.
> 
> The Qatar Airways flight to Doha marked a breakthrough in the bumpy coordination between the U.S. and Afghanistan’s new Taliban rulers. A dayslong standoff over charter planes at another airport has left dozens of passengers stranded.
> 
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Sep 2021)

Remius said:


> You can nominate him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I served with this Canadian Dave from 83-86. Good to see him around.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Sep 2021)

This just out:  *"Peter MacKay: Stranding our Afghan allies was an epic failure on Canada's part"*

Meanwhile, back when he was defence minister (from 2011) ....


> *.... *“The Government does not make decisions about individual cases based on political considerations,” (immigration minister Jason) Kenney asserts. “Nor does the editorial board of the _Toronto Star_, which does not have the benefit of all the relevant facts, get to decide who qualifies for government programs.
> 
> “We leave such decisions to highly-trained and competent civil servants. They have decided that Mr. Sharifi is not eligible under this program.”
> 
> ...


Would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall during cabinet meetings discussing _this_ issue back then ....


----------



## Takeniteasy (9 Sep 2021)

Czech_pivo said:


> Canadian Dave and his efforts to save as many as he and his team could.
> 
> To me, his actions should result in an 'Order of Canada' but what do I know.
> 
> ...


The OC is for a body of work not for an individual act. You can nominate him for an MSN in my eyes. Otherwise lets talk about his history in the CAF and how he perpetuated the misogyny and dislike of anything other than heteronormative males. In my opinion he should be praciticing out of sight and out of mind.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Sep 2021)

IRONMAN3 said:


> The OC is for a body of work not for an individual act. You can nominate him for an MSN in my eyes. Otherwise lets talk about his history in the CAF and how he perpetuated the misogyny and dislike of anything other than heteronormative males. In my opinion he should be praciticing out of sight and out of mind.


----------



## CBH99 (13 Sep 2021)

IRONMAN3 said:


> The OC is for a body of work not for an individual act. You can nominate him for an MSN in my eyes. Otherwise lets talk about his history in the CAF and how he perpetuated the misogyny and dislike of anything other than heteronormative males. In my opinion he should be praciticing out of sight and out of mind.


Care to elaborate at all??  (I don’t know the man from Adam, but I’m curious as to why you say this?)


----------



## CBH99 (13 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> This just out:  *"Peter MacKay: Stranding our Afghan allies was an epic failure on Canada's part"*
> 
> Meanwhile, back when he was defence minister (from 2011) ....
> 
> Would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall during cabinet meetings discussing _this_ issue back then ....


Agreed.  

Perhaps the media could request a few examples of these contracts, as they seem quite familiar with the FOIP/Request for Information procedures.

Request a few of these documents, so we can all see for ourselves what was promised & included, and what wasn’t.  

For a party that initially got elected based on ‘Sunny Ways’ and promises of transparency, surely this would be doable.  Yes?


----------



## CBH99 (13 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Few more makin' it out (including Canadians) ...


When this all first started to happen (re: Operation S**t Show) - there were a LOT of questions being asked, along with strong emotions being felt - by some more than others, for good reason.  

I am curious though (I asked before, and I apologize if someone did answer.  Now that this thread isn’t so busy, as the situation is over, it will be easier to follow…)

**Who the hell are ‘all these Canadians’ that were/are in Afghanistan?  And why are they there?


I understand embassy staff, and staff from GAC.  

I understand the Nepalese contractors who we hired for embassy security, along with other contractors the government hired.  (Not Canadian citizens, but I understand our clear obligation to help ensure their safety.)

I understand Canadians working for NGO’s.  Especially NGO’s that were hired by our government, or were working hand in hand with our government.  

-  Surely there couldn’t have been that many Canadian citizens in the country, given embassy/GAC staff and a handful of Canadian citizens working with NGO’s.  

-  Other than contractors we were employing at the time, who the hell else was over there?  And why?


For the record - if I ever immigrate to another country, because my own country is in a state of civil war/warlords/poverty/corruption/violence/lack of opportunities, etc - I don’t expect anybody to come rescue me if I decide to go back for a wbileand s**t goes down.  

Especially when the group of violent religious fanatics have signed a peace deal - basically an approved road map - and are already starting to come back in force.  



If I’m working for the government when things go completely sideways - absolutely.  Send a C-17, or a few C-130s, to come pick us up.  

If I’m working for a NGO that the government hired?  Again, wouldn’t mind a quick pick up please.  

But if I’m ‘just there’ because… meh.  No.  I don’t want people to risk their lives to come get me out of a mess that I shouldn’t be in, in the first place.  


(I realize I’m probably missing something and sound like an insensitive jerk.  I don’t mean to sound ignorant, just frustratingly confused.)


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2021)

CBH99 said:


> ... **Who the hell are ‘all these Canadians’ that were/are in Afghanistan?  And why are they there? ...


Actually a good question - different kettle of fish evacuating terps who helped Canadian troops & their families vs. people with Canadian passports who spend a ton of time there, well, because various reasons.  

Both groups need to be dealt with and/or supported, but in different ways and with different levels of urgency - with some mulling done, for example, after evacuations of Canadians out of various shit storms elsewhere in the past.


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Actually a good question - different kettle of fish evacuating terps who helped Canadian troops & their families vs. people with Canadian passports who spend a ton of time there, well, because various reasons.
> 
> Both groups need to be dealt with and/or supported, but in different ways and with different levels of urgency - with some mulling done, for example, after evacuations of Canadians out of various shit storms elsewhere in the past.


Passports/citizens of convenience ?


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Passports/citizens of convenience ?


One man's citizen of convenience is another's citizen free to travel and live where s/he wants as long as s/he's following all the Canadian rules about citizenship & residency.  East Germany was less than fully successful, in the longer term, with its own exit management regime, right? 

Meanwhile, more details about a couple of the escapees who got out via Ukrainian help (text also attached in case link doesn't work for you).


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Sep 2021)

Speaking of "who are all these Canadians?" - highlights mine ....


> Two weeks after Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau said 1,250 people with ties to Canada remain in Afghanistan, a government source puts the current number even higher, at about 1,280.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Sep 2021)

AFG terps in Canada:  do more, guys ....


> Two hundred Afghan interpreters who worked with the Canadian Forces are expected to gather at Parliament Hill for a hunger strike on Wednesday to press Ottawa into getting their families out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Protest organizer Hayat Khan said that roughly 5,000 extended family members of interpreters remain stuck in the country as the new Taliban government takes control of a country mired in economic crisis and pending food shortages.
> 
> Many family members, he said, have been in hiding since the Taliban seized power last month. To highlight their dilemma, protesters have scheduled the hunger strike to last three days and they will camp out on Parliament Hill if permitted ...


If link doesn't work, text also attached for purposes of research, private study or education under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Sep 2021)

In The Netherlands, someone falls on their sword ....


> Dutch Foreign Minister Sigrid Kaag has resigned over her handling of the Afghan evacuation crisis last month.
> 
> She is the first Western government official to step down over the chaos that followed the Taliban takeover.
> 
> ...


Edited to add her statement ....


> ‘Madam Chair,
> 
> Yesterday, we had an intensive, intense debate about the Dutch evacuation amid the acute crisis in Afghanistan.
> 
> ...


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Sep 2021)

You sure don’t see that kind of self-imposed accountability from a politician very often these days.

Minister Kaag certainly couldn’t be accused of failing to hold herself accountable. 👍🏼


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Minister Kaag certainly couldn’t be accused of failing to hold herself accountable. 👍🏼


You can include NLD's defence minister in that category now, too ....


> The Dutch defense minister quit Friday, a day after parliament passed a motion of censure against her for her handling of chaotic evacuations from Kabul of translators who worked for Dutch forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> Ank Bijleveld is the second minister in the Netherlands' caretaker coalition government to resign over the evacuations, following the foreign minister, Sigrid Kaag.
> 
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Sep 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Care to elaborate at all??  (I don’t know the man from Adam, but I’m curious as to why you say this?)


So am I.


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Sep 2021)

Good on ex-Minister Bijleveldt, as well.

My father-in-law, who grew up in Nazi-occupied Holland but passed several years ago from cancer, would be proud of his birthland (and probably equally ashamed of his adoptive home here in Canada).


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Good on ex-Minister Bijleveldt, as well.
> 
> My father-in-law, who grew up in Nazi-occupied Holland but passed several years ago from cancer, would be proud of his birthland (and probably equally ashamed of his adoptive home here in Canada).


Seek and accept responsibility. 

Anyone remember that? When things go to shit the leader is responsible? 

Not in Canada. Not in government nor the upper strata of the CAF.


----------



## CBH99 (17 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Speaking of "who are all these Canadians?" - highlights mine ....


I understand the requirement to evacuate the 440 Canadian citizens.  

If they weren’t directly employed by GAC, or an NGO contracted out by us, no idea why the hell they would be there.  But, I understand the pressure to get them out.  

(Perhaps I’m just getting a bit cold or jaded, but…not employed by our government, or a company contracted by our government?  Shouldn’t be there in the first place.  0.02)


The permanent residents?  Do we have an obligation to evacuate them also?  Again, why on Earth are they even there?  

If you left that country due to violence, poverty, danger, war, extremism, etc - and became a permanent resident here in Canada.  Why are you there?  Especially now?  with plenty of notice that friendly forces were packing up.

And their family members?  Really?  


(I haven’t slept since I woke up at 1pm yesterday, and I haven’t eaten in more than 12hrs.  Rough week.  Maybe I’m just exhausted and hangry… but it seems like a LOT of people who shouldn’t be there were/are expecting us to evacuate them…)


*Solid link & post Bread Guy.  My frustration is at the situation, not you.  Just to be clear 😅😉*


----------



## McG (17 Sep 2021)

CBH99 said:


> If they weren’t directly employed by GAC, or an NGO contracted out by us,


NGO ≠ contractor

Generally, NGOs are in a country on their own altruistic missions. Lots of Canadians sought employment with NGOs attempting to do good in Afghanistan. None of those Canadians would have necessarily been in Afghanistan under any contractual relation with the Government of Canada.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Sep 2021)

CBH99 said:


> (I haven’t slept since I woke up at 1pm yesterday, and I haven’t eaten in more than 12hrs.  Rough week.  Maybe I’m just exhausted and hangry… but it seems like a LOT of people who shouldn’t be there were/are expecting us to evacuate them…)
> 
> 
> *Solid link & post Bread Guy.  My frustration is at the situation, not you.  Just to be clear 😅😉*


Seen.  Like I said before, you did raise a good question - especially given the history of pulling Canadians in a wide range of situations out of Lebanon when things got crappy.

And at least get some food into ya, man


----------



## CBH99 (18 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Seen.  Like I said before, you did raise a good question - especially given the history of pulling Canadians in a wide range of situations out of Lebanon when things got crappy.
> 
> And at least get some food into ya, man


Had myself a nice big meal from A&W.  Then an hour later had myself a slurpee, bag of gummies, ice cream sandwich, and even brought two pieces of pie to bed with me.  

Woke up weighing 2 tons, and a Type 4 diabetic.  But I’m no longer feeling like a jaded psychopath 😊👍🏻


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Sep 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Had myself a nice big meal from A&W.  Then an hour later had myself a slurpee, bag of gummies, ice cream sandwich, and even brought two pieces of pie to bed with me.


The fuel of champions!


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2021)

A few more Canadians (no numbers given in MSM yet) getting out to Qatar...

_*"Qatar flight with Canadians, Afghans, Americans leaves Kabul, official says" (Globe and Mail)*_
_*"Qatar flight with Afghans, Americans, Europeans leaves Kabul, official says" (Reuters)*_
_*"Qatar Airways flight carrying over 230 passengers leaves Kabul for Doha" (Qatar Tribune)*_
_*"Afghanistan: Qatar says more foreigners flown out of Kabul" (DEU media)*_


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Seek and accept responsibility.
> 
> Anyone remember that? When things go to shit the leader is responsible?
> 
> Not in Canada. Not in government nor the upper strata of the CAF.


I`d like to add to this. It seems I`m not over this.

 The CAF - seems to have no problem holding a WO or Sgt responible. I know of a Major who took responsibility for his actions on a range that suffered casualties. 

When it comes to senior officers and the like the CAF wants to cover it up, at least until recently. 

Rant ends for now


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The CAF - seems to have no problem holding a WO or Sgt responible. I know of a Major who took responsibility for his actions on a range that suffered casualties.


…and then demoted for doing the right thing in support of the soldier’s parents.  A travesty of institutional cowardice…


----------



## dangerboy (20 Sep 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I`d like to add to this. It seems I`m not over this.
> 
> The CAF - seems to have no problem holding a WO or Sgt responible. I know of a Major who took responsibility for his actions on a range that suffered casualties.


And the actual RSO did not, still pisses me off.


----------



## Remius (20 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> …and then demoted for doing the right thing in support of the soldier’s parents.  A travesty of institutional cowardice…


Institutional Cowardice.  What a fine description.  Well done. I may use that.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Sep 2021)

Please do, R.   

It was a horrible example of screwing the one guy who tried to do the right thing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Please do, R.
> 
> It was a horrible example of screwing the one guy who tried to do the right thing.



What incident was this?


----------



## dangerboy (21 Sep 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> What incident was this?



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-soldier-pleads-guilty-in-afghan-friendly-fire-1.1158245


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Sep 2021)

The death of Cpl Neil Mackinnon, 27 March 1995, in a live-fire exercise at CFB Suffield. 

Heroism and cover-up: full truth still not told about soldier's death (Corporal Neil Mackinnon). - Free Online Library


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> The death of Cpl Neil Mackinnon, 27 March 1995, in a live-fire exercise at CFB Suffield.
> 
> Heroism and cover-up: full truth still not told about soldier's death (Corporal Neil Mackinnon). - Free Online Library



Hmmm....

"Nobody had missed the similarities involved in the two reported accidents, and everyone knew that something was dangerously wrong with Brigadier General Cox's training exercise."


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Sep 2021)

"Welcome, asylum seekers .... eventually ...."


> Afghan asylum seekers who’ve managed to flee the crisis in Afghanistan after the Taliban took over are complaining that they’re now being passed back and forth between agencies due to the lack of coordination with each other.
> 
> Asylum seekers like Gholam Hussain Mohammadi, for instance, say they haven’t even been able to apply for asylum and are stuck in limbo, with Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada (IRCC) telling them they have to go through the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), and vice-versa.
> 
> Mohammadi, a 28-year-old Afghan and Hazara Shiite who escaped Kabul with his family said he has sent emails to IRCC over and over again, explaining his situation in detail, but has yet to hear back. He strongly criticizes the inconsistency between the IRCC and the UNHCR ...


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> The death of Cpl Neil Mackinnon, 27 March 1995, in a live-fire exercise at CFB Suffield.
> 
> Heroism and cover-up: full truth still not told about soldier's death (Corporal Neil Mackinnon). - Free Online Library


They first blamed the corporal - then they tried to pin the blame on a WO and a Sgt. Then they blamed a major and demoted him.

The blame should have continued on up to CO 1 VP - whom I never had a good feeling about - and Comd 1 CMBG who was - well you all know what he was like.

This still pisses me off.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Sep 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> The death of Cpl Neil Mackinnon, 27 March 1995, in a live-fire exercise at CFB Suffield.



I didn't know him, but I still remember the incident...surprised me to read "1995".  Has time sped up?

RIP, Cpl.


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Sep 2021)

Interesting Canadian link to this story about AFG's girls' soccer team being evac'ed to Portugal ....


> Girls from the Afghanistan national soccer team who were recently granted asylum in Portugal have had a surprise visit from the captain of the senior team.
> 
> *Farkhunda Muhtaj, a professional player who from her home in Canada spent weeks helping arrange their recent rescue  from Afghanistan*, flew into the Portuguese capital, Lisbon, for an emotional reunion with the girls’ team late Wednesday.
> 
> ...


Wonder if any media'll speak to her adventure and how the team ended up in Portugal?

Edited to add:  some apparently have.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Oct 2021)

Latest on some out, some still trying (and whazzup in NZ) ...

_*“How a Canadian interpreter escaped Kabul, with little help from Ottawa” (ctvnews.ca)*_
_*“Afghan interpreter in Pakistan pleads with Ottawa to speed up visa processing” (Globalnews.ca)*_
_*“Fall of Afghanistan: Pressure builds for plan to rescue hundreds” (NZ media)*_
_*“Plan for a private Afghan extraction operation is waiting for government’s support” (NZ media)*_


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Oct 2021)

Some still waiting .... *"Afghans who worked for Canadian military still waiting for rescue from Kabul safe house"*


> *... *Eleanor Taylor, a retired Canadian lieutenant-colonel who is Aman Lara’s volunteer chief of staff, said the organization and its allied NGOs have a master list of about 2,000 applicants. Along with their families, they come to just more than 10,000 people who need to be evacuated from Afghanistan and brought to Canada. Roughly half of the primary applicants have connections to the Canadian military, while the rest of the list is made up of women, LGBTQ+ individuals, human-rights workers and journalists who fit the profile of IRCC’s program to bring 40,000 Afghan refugees to Canada.
> 
> Evading the Taliban is the biggest challenge for Aman Lara and its allies, but getting the wheels of Canadian bureaucracy to turn faster – to issue emergency visas and to persuade Afghanistan’s neighbours to temporarily take in Canada-bound refugees – has also been difficult ...


If story link doesn't work, text also attached for purposes of research, private study or education under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act.


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Oct 2021)

Not looking great for some who helped the Dutch ...


> Afghan interpreters who worked for the Netherlands have been summoned to appear in court by the Taliban who have threatened their families, Dutch public television NOS reported on Friday.
> 
> The interpreters are in hiding but their family members will be held responsible if they fail to show up in court “and severely punished to teach other traitors a lesson,” said a letter from the Taliban, which was aired by the broadcaster ...


----------



## CBH99 (6 Oct 2021)

The “New Taliban.”  More tolerant than before.  Reformed.  For the people, by the people.  No more crazy violence or ruling by tyranny.  

Riiiigghhhtttt….


----------



## Altair (8 Oct 2021)

BBC News - Afghanistan: Deadly attack hits Kunduz mosque during Friday prayers Afghanistan: Deadly attack hits Kunduz mosque during Friday prayers

Your turn Taliban. You have fun providing security for the people against groups like Islamic state. Best of luck.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Oct 2021)

Altair said:


> BBC News - Afghanistan: Deadly attack hits Kunduz mosque during Friday prayers Afghanistan: Deadly attack hits Kunduz mosque during Friday prayers
> 
> Your turn Taliban. You have fun providing security for the people against groups like Islamic state. Best of luck.



The right approach, of course, is: "How can we help?"

I hope we're not too parochial to try that


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Oct 2021)

Some still waiting, but not in Afghanistan ....


> An Afghan family that fled Kabul as the Taliban took over the country in August has been stuck in Ukraine for more than a month while they wait for Canadian immigration officials to process their paperwork.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Oct 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Some still waiting, but not in Afghanistan ....


A good start but Immigration Canada needs to do better.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The right approach, of course, is: "How can we help?" ...


Taliban so far:  We're good, thanks ...

_*“Afghan foreign minister says Taliban forces can control ISIS threat”*_ (Reuters)
_*“Taliban say they won’t work with US to contain Islamic State”*_ (Associated Press)
_*“Islamic Emirate: No Need for US Support in Containing Daesh” *_(AFG media*)*


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Oct 2021)

A few tidbits, Canadian and otherwise ....

_*“Canada pushed to act to help Afghan interpreter and family stuck in Ukraine”*_ (globalnews.ca)
_*“Afghans targeted by the Taliban say they have no idea how to secure Canadian visas” *_(CBC News)
_*“Volunteers who supported Syrian refugees reconnecting to help Afghan newcomers” *(Toronto Star)_
_*“Afghan refugees settle in Saskatoon”*_ (globalnews.ca)
_*“Interpreter on Dutch evacuation list murdered in Kabul: report” *_(NLD media)


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Oct 2021)

One think tank's seven suggestions ....


> Get people out
> Increase government assisted refugees
> Keep extended families together
> Pave the way for private sponsorship
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Oct 2021)

In the U.K., ballsy move by someone  ...


> A suspected extremist with links to ISIS was removed from a plane leaving Kabul, foiling his attempt to return to the UK after being stripped of his rights to live there.
> 
> The Afghan man, identified only as D9, had been living in the UK since 2001 but returned to Afghanistan for Covid-19-related reasons in 2019, only to be barred from returning on national security grounds.
> 
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Oct 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> In the U.K., ballsy move by someone  ...


Well at least some one has some.... we'd roll out the red carpet, give them a huge cheque and in some areas a standing ovation.


----------



## CBH99 (20 Oct 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> In the U.K., ballsy move by someone  ...


He left the UK and went back to Afghanistan for _Covid related reasons_?  How does that make any sense?

Leave a country with a well established healthcare system, free vaccinations once the vaccines became available, and various social supports…for…

a 3rd world country that - at the time - was run by a corrupt and incompetent government with no health care system, no access to medications or vaccinations, or modern medical assistance?


Cool move.  Bro.  Clearly well thought out too.  

I wish when COVID became a thing, my brain was smart enough to say “Ya know what?  Better move to Afghanistan, just to be on the safe side…”

Either he’s a genuine moron, or someone that raised enough serious flags to have the UK arrange for him to be taken off a plane before it took off.  I’m guessing it’s the latter…

And he is worried that his life is in danger because _authorities may conclude he is an extremist._   The local authorities are the Taliban…   


0.02

Btw - if the UK arranged to have him removed from a flight prior to takeoff, it means they had surveillance on him.  Electronically to know he had purchased a ticket, and someone on the ground that confirmed he had boarded the aircraft.  

Media might want to think before writing and publishing articles.  The Taliban are now aware that the UK has active reporting sources in Kabul, even if they are just CI’s.  

Discretion is truly undervalued.   


Another 0.02


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Oct 2021)

CBH99 said:


> ... Media might want to think before writing and publishing articles ...


And if they don't publish articles about people kicked out for being threats trying to get back into a country, they get accused of "not showing the truth" or "ignoring what's happening," especially if it's happening in open court proceedings.  #CantWin

And if anyone knows they're being watched by more than just the U.K., it would be Taliban 2.0 these days


----------



## CBH99 (20 Oct 2021)

How shitty of a day are you having when _the Taliban_ pull you off a flight for being a wee bit _too sketchy_?  😅

And for it to all happen at _THAT_ airport to boot…



The more I think about this article, the more my dark side chuckles a bit…

_He’s worried that local authorities may deem him to be an extremist._ 

Ummm…the UK just had you pulled off a flight for ‘posing a serious security risk to the UK.’  The Taliban don’t need to deem you an extremist, the UK already called them and outed you as one.  Hence your current predicament…

I had assumed ‘it was the latter’ in my previous post.  But maybe it’s a blend of both possibilities? 🤷🏼‍♂️



**Disclaimer now - If the UK did just muck this up and do this to the wrong person, or did this based on blatantly wrong information, just ignore my sarcasm here. 

Then I’d genuinely feel for this guy. 

Still doesn’t explain why he went back to Afghanistan after getting out.  Especially for COVID related reasons…


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Oct 2021)

Back here at home, this out Monday from the Immigration/Refugee/Citizenship info-machine ...


> Individuals from Afghanistan may now be eligible to apply for a pre-removal risk assessment (PRRA) if they received a final negative decision from the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada or the Federal Court, or a final PRRA decision from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC) from October 19, 2020 to October 18, 2021.
> 
> If someone’s refugee claim or previous application for a PRRA is rejected, abandoned or withdrawn, or if their application for leave or judicial review is dismissed by the Federal Court, they are not eligible to apply for a PRRA for at least 12 months.
> 
> However, the worsening conditions in Afghanistan could put individuals at risk, in which case they may warrant an additional assessment. For this reason, some individuals from Afghanistan are now exempt from the 12-month bar on applying for a PRRA, depending on when they received a decision on their refugee claim ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Oct 2021)

Increasingly less room at the inn, so to speak ...


> Some Kabul safe houses, where hundreds of Afghans who helped the Canadian military and non-governmental organizations are waiting to flee to Canada, are set to be closed in two weeks because of lack of funding.
> 
> An organization running the safe houses, where around 1,700 people with approval to come to Canada are being housed and fed, say that "time has run out" for them.
> 
> ...


Although even with Taliban 2.0, I wonder how "safe" safe houses will remain, no matter who runs them ....


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Oct 2021)

Load o' Canadian coverage for the moment ...

_*"Government data breach exposes Afghans to more danger" (CBC News)*_
_*The FIfth Estate "Abandoned in Afghanistan: Canada's failed promise" (CBC News)*_
_*"Online criteria for Afghan refugee program changes, applies only to those who've fled" (The Canadian Press via Toronto Sun)*_
_*" 'They worked for us. They bled for us.' " (Ottawa Citizen)*_
_*" 'A dysfunctional process': Thousands of Canada's allies and their families still stranded in Afghanistan" (National Post)*_
_*"Canada promised to take in 20,000-40,000 Afghan refugees. Where are they?" (National Post)*_
_*Opinion:  "Friends of Canada still in Afghanistan face immeasurable risks to their lives" (Vancouver Sun)*_


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2021)

More Canadian coverage (esp. with reporters in AFG right now):

_*“Canadian government urged to rescue Afghan interpreters long before American withdrawal, leaked emails reveal” (CBC News)*_
_*“Canada must ‘fulfill the promise’ and rescue remaining Afghans, veterans say” (Globalnews.ca)*_
_*“N.L. welcomes 116 Afghan refugees in single flight to St. John’s” (CBC News)*_
_*“Province welcomes 116 new refugees from Afghanistan” (ntv.ca)*_
_*“Afghanistan crisis: Is Canada doing enough to rescue Afghans trapped in country?” (The Global Herald)*_
_*“Global News exclusive: Inside Afghanistan’s safe houses where people hide from Taliban” (Global News via Yahoo)*_
_*“Hopes crushed by return of Taliban, Kabul women see no future in Afghanistan” (Globalnews.ca)*_
_*“Veteran retraining program now serves former Afghan interpreters” (CTV News)*_


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Oct 2021)

A good chunk arriving in Newfoundland ...

_*“Whirlwind few weeks preparing for 116 Afghan refugees coming to St. John’s (NL), but relief they’re now safe” (SaltWire)*_
_*“With 116 Afghan refugees safely in St. John’s the real work begins” (CBC News)*_
_*” ‘Magic in the airport’ as 116 Afghan refugees arrive in St. John’s to start new lives in Canada” (SaltWire)*_
_*“(NL) NDP seeks assurances refugee children will have supports in school system” (ntv.ca)*_
_*“Association for New Canadians helping newly arrived Afghan refugees” (ntv.ca)*_


----------



## dimsum (29 Oct 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> A good chunk arriving in Newfoundland ...
> 
> _*“Whirlwind few weeks preparing for 116 Afghan refugees coming to St. John’s (NL), but relief they’re now safe” (SaltWire)*_
> _*“With 116 Afghan refugees safely in St. John’s the real work begins” (CBC News)*_
> ...


I'm not sure what will be more jarring - the weather or Newfoundland hospitality.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> I'm not sure what will be more jarring - the weather or Newfoundland hospitality.


I’ve served with a good number of Newfoundlanders - let’s just say there’s never a dull moment


----------



## dimsum (29 Oct 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I’ve served with a good number of Newfoundlanders - let’s just say there’s never a dull moment


Exactly.  I think the Afghans will be surprised, in a good way.


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## The Bread Guy (30 Oct 2021)

Canadians helping Afghans scoot (to other countries) ...

_*“Canadian NGO is helping LGBTQ Afghans get to safety. But Ottawa is sitting on sidelines” (Globe and Mail)*_
_*“Toronto charity helps airlift group of LGBTQ people out of Afghanistan – Rainbow Railroad worked with the U.K. to help 29 people flee the Taliban …” (CBC News)*_
_*“Rainbow Railroad gets 29 LGBTQ2S+ Afghans to U.K.” (CTV News)*_
_*“First group of LGBT+ Afghans fleeing Taliban arrive in the UK” (UK Guardian)*_
_*“Britain rescues over a dozen LGBT Afghans” (Reuters)*_
_*“Almost 30 LGBT+ Afghans resettled in the UK following brutal Taliban takeover” (PinkNews.co.uk)*_


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Oct 2021)

dimsum said:


> Exactly.  I think the Afghans will be surprised, in a good way.


however, the “screeching in“ might cause some cross cultural confusion…


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## The Bread Guy (2 Nov 2021)

Open letter/advice to PM, others in Ottawa from Human Rights Watch:


> ... Now that the new cabinet has been appointed, the time has come for that leadership. The signatories therefore call upon Prime Minister Trudeau, Minister of Immigration, Refugees, Citizenship Canada Sean Fraser and Minister of Foreign Affairs Mélanie Joly to urgently address the following four major issues that must be resolved if Canada is to achieve its purpose in securing the safe and timely evacuation of the at-risk individuals from Afghanistan targeted through Canada’s special programs.
> 
> 1) Clarify Canada’s policy by defining its terms.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (3 Nov 2021)

More of the latest ....

_*“Afghans without Canadian links using forged papers to try to enter rescue program for ex-employees: sources” (National Post)*_
_*“Kabul safe houses need $5 million by Friday to stay open, say veterans” (The Canadian Press via Yahoo)*_
_*“Richmond students donate $2,000 to support new Afghan refugees” (Richmond News)*_
_*“In quarantine hotels, Afghan refugees say they lack basics. ‘We don’t have enough clothes’ ” (The Canadian Press via Globalnews.ca)*_
_*“Afghanistan: Charitable groups issue call to action for Canada” (CTV News)*_
_*“Former parliamentarians, humanitarian groups urge Ottawa to step up on Afghan resettlement efforts” (CBC via YouTube)*_


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## Jarnhamar (16 Dec 2021)

Girl shot dead by Taliban while family was preparing to flee to Canada​


			Girl shot dead by Taliban while family was preparing to flee to Canada


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## Good2Golf (16 Dec 2021)

Our Government has no shame.  The PM was seized of a personally-driven effort to increase his power, and forced the machinery of government to pause while he and his team positioned to expand the base of his throne, even as tens of thousands of Afghans tried to flee the ravages of the Taliban.  Weeks later, with a statistically minuscule blip of increase to a refreshed minority government (and 2/3 billion CAD of the citizens’ treasure expended for little to show for it) Afghans continued to seek support of one of the countries who’s soldiers benefited so greatly from the loyal Afghans’.

May Justin Trudeau and the rest of his loyal supporters have the courage to look at Nazifa’s picture, and explain to us why she and others like her were “asking too much…”

For shame, JT, for shame.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Dec 2021)

This from Team Blue on the latest:


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## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> This from Team Blue on the latest:
> View attachment 67683


I can answer this. Trudeau could care less about the plight of someone who assisted the CAF thousands of miles away. This should be splashed on every media outlet available. You, MR PM are partially responsible for this young woman's death. SHE IS THE SAME AGE AS MY GRANDDAUGHTER AND YES I AM FUCKING ANGRY.

My son did not die serving with these wonderful people only to have them abandoned.. Jesus H Christ.

A leopard cannot change his spots no matter what they tell you.


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## The Bread Guy (7 Jan 2022)

This from Reuters ....


> Canada will take in female Afghan judges and their families who have been living in limbo, primarily in Greece, since their evacuation from Afghanistan in the fall, a spokesperson for the immigration minister said Friday.
> 
> In addition to the judges and their families, a group totalling about 230 people, Canada will also resettle an unspecified number of Afghans from the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer communities who had been referred by a third-party aid organization, the spokesperson said.
> 
> They are expected to come to Canada next year but there is no firm date ...


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## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2022)

How some got here ....


> A top editor at CBS News resigned last week after clashing with the network’s co-president over whether to rescue Afghan journalists and fixers from the chaos-ridden country last year, The Post has learned.  London Bureau Chief Andy Clarke, a 38-year CBS veteran who was responsible for dispatching journalists around the world, stepped down last week after multiple disagreements with CBS News co-president Neeraj Khemlani over budget cuts ...
> 
> Clarke’s breaking point, insiders said, came when Khemlani initially refused to pony up cash to extradite Afghan journalists and fixers who worked for CBS last year when President Biden ordered US troops to pull out of Afghanistan.
> 
> Eventually, Clarke won a standoff and convinced Khemlani to pay and send the Afghan staffers to Canada, sources said ...


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## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2022)

A few arrive in BC - from the info-machine ...


> The Government of Canada is working hard to resettle 40,000 Afghan nationals as quickly and safely as possible. Over the past week, nearly 460 Afghan refugees arrived in Canada on 20 different commercial flights. To date, a total of 7,550 Afghan nationals have arrived in Canada.
> 
> On February 3, a flight with 90 government-assisted refugees arrived at the Vancouver International Airport (YVR) and was greeted by Musqueam elders, who welcomed the newcomers to their territory with a cedar brushing and welcome song as a way to ensure a fresh start and safe path on the next steps of their journey. As part of the Vancouver Airport Authority’s Friendship Agreement with Musqueam, and as a step toward reconciliation, Musqueam and YVR hope the gesture helps share a glimpse of Musqueam history and culture and encourages newcomers to learn more about Indigenous people in Canada.
> 
> Photos of the Musqueam ceremony are available in Dropbox. You can also monitor Canada’s progress on welcoming Afghan refugees to Canada ...


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## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2022)

Can't win, this guy ...








						Afghan Interpreter Escapes Taliban Only To Face Russian Invasion Threat In Ukraine
					

A 33-year-old interpreter who worked for NATO forces in Afghanistan managed to get to Ukraine with his large family after the Taliban takeover last summer. But delays in his Canadian visa application has him worried they'll all be trapped in Ukraine if Russian forces invade.




					www.rferl.org


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## The Bread Guy (25 Mar 2022)

Latest stats ....








						Only 2,385 Afghan nationals who assisted CAF mission relocated to Canada
					






					nationalpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org


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## dimsum (25 Mar 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Latest stats ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Question:  If these folks helped multiple countries, could they apply to multiple countries for evac during the Kabul Airlift?

If they can do that, then the follow-on question would be how many of the 9000-ish Afghans applied to Canada, but then were evacuated to US, UK, etc?


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## The Bread Guy (10 Apr 2022)

Bumped with this guy still working at it ....


> When Jonathon Monaghan served with the Canadian Armed Forces in Afghanistan in 2009 he formed a bond with his Afghan interpreter that endures to this day.
> 
> Now Monaghan and his wife, Kara, are trying to get his former interpreter, his wife and 30 members of his extended family to the security of Halifax.
> 
> Monaghan said they are applying for permanent residence for the family under a special Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada provision for extended families of former Afghan interpreters ...


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## CBH99 (10 Apr 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Can't win, this guy ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This guy contributed more to a high profile Canadian effort (Afghan war) than a vast majority of Canadians ever would or could, yet gets 0% of the credit, and it appears 0% of what we offered for the help.  

All that, only to be in Ukraine _of all places_ where Russia just couldn’t stop itself from being… Russia.


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## OldSolduer (11 Apr 2022)

CBH99 said:


> This guy contributed more to a high profile Canadian effort (Afghan war) than a vast majority of Canadians ever would or could, yet gets 0% of the credit, and it appears 0% of what we offered for the help.
> 
> All that, only to be in Ukraine _of all places_ where Russia just couldn’t stop itself from being… Russia.


I'm all for Ukranians being brought here but the total lack of effort by the GoC to bring Afghan interpreters that risked and continue to risk their lives for OUR troops is unethical and tells the world "Canada doesn't give a sh!t about you"


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## CBH99 (11 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I'm all for Ukranians being brought here but the total lack of effort by the GoC to bring Afghan interpreters that risked and continue to risk their lives for OUR troops is unethical and tells the world "Canada doesn't give a sh!t about you"


Agreed.  

But if we’re being totally objective here, that total lack of effort stemmed from when Harper was in office, and the lack of effort has just remained status quo.  

Im blown away that we can bring in 25,000 Syrians with a couple of phone calls - and even have the PM meet them as they disembark the plane… yet we couldn’t fly a few dudes and their families out of a theatre we had flights to/from almost daily?

I’m not sure how much of a sh*t the GoC gives about most Canadians of inconvenience, or non-Canadians once they have served their purpose.  

(Note - I think veterans probably fall into the category of who they’d label as Canadians of inconvenience.)


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## The Bread Guy (13 Apr 2022)

Can the immigration system walk & chew gum @ the same time?  Discuss ....


> Afghan interpreters who have made it to Canada say their family members fleeing the Taliban deserve the same treatment as Ukrainians escaping from Russian troops.
> 
> At a parliamentary committee on Monday, they called on the government to allow their families into Canada as easily as Ukrainians.
> 
> The interpreters complained their family members are stalled with stacks of forms and demands for travel documents that are difficult to obtain from the Taliban ...


I get it that security can be an issue here, but more than one government of more than one colour team jersey has had a crack at this - with seemingly weak results all round.


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## OldSolduer (13 Apr 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Can the immigration system walk & chew gum @ the same time?  Discuss ....
> 
> I get it that security can be an issue here, but more than one government of more than one colour team jersey has had a crack at this - with seemingly weak results all round.


Agreed. There is more than enough blame to go around.


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## CBH99 (13 Apr 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Can the immigration system walk & chew gum @ the same time?  Discuss ....
> 
> I get it that security can be an issue here, but more than one government of more than one colour team jersey has had a crack at this - with seemingly weak results all round.


If the 25,000 Syrians didn’t have to fill out stacks of paperwork, and we’ve minimized that paperwork for Ukrainians fleeing the current situation… seems like a clear message from the GoC.   

-  How essential is some of that paperwork in the first place, if it can be waived or minimized when convenient?

-  these people are fleeing the country because of the fear they have of the Taliban.  

Why are we asking them to obtain this paperwork from the very people who they are afraid will kill them?  

How do we expect them to correctly fill out the stack of paperwork when a large percentage of the country can’t read or write?  



Security is an issue, yes.  

But 25,000 Syrians at the drop of a hat would have had similar security concerns, I’d imagine?  And that seemed to pan out.  

We should be able to do the same for a few hundred Afghans who actually did something to earn the trip.   


0.02


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## The Bread Guy (18 Apr 2022)

Veterans Transition Network appears to be out of energy/patience with The Immigration Machine  (_Globe & Mail_)


> A Canadian veterans group is giving up its efforts to evacuate Afghans who supported Ottawa’s military and diplomatic mission in the country, citing staff burnout and a federal immigration system that is overburdened with red tape.
> 
> The Veterans Transition Network, which says it raised $3.6-million and helped rescue 2,061 Afghans since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan in August, 2021, is refocusing on its main priority of helping Canadian veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder and other mental-health problems.
> 
> ...


Archive link if previous G&M link doesn't work for you.


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## OldSolduer (18 Apr 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Veterans Transition Network appears to be out of energy/patience with The Immigration Machine  (_Globe & Mail_)
> 
> Archive link if previous G&M link doesn't work for you.




The hypocrisy of the Fedral government is really astounding but not surprising, and I’ll go as far to say it was like this under former governments as well.


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## The Bread Guy (18 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The hypocrisy of the Fedral government is really astounding but not surprising, and I’ll go as far to say it was like this under former governments as well.


That's why I have to wonder why it seems to be so systemic (bureaucratic?), given that both Team Blue & Team Red have had a crack and haven't been able to come up with a more efficient, timely way of dealing with this.


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## OldSolduer (18 Apr 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> That's why I have to wonder why it seems to be so systemic (bureaucratic?), given that both Team Blue & Team Red have had a crack and haven't been able to come up with a more efficient, timely way of dealing with this.



Perhaps it’s the bureaucracy who prizes “process” over “results”.   

After all the Khadr clan made it here somehow….right?


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## The Bread Guy (22 Apr 2022)

1)  Not just Canada juggling priorities.
2)  How RUS loves to stir the divisiveness pot (links to RUS state media)








						Afghan refugees evicted to make room for Ukrainians – media
					

Afghans in German refugee accommodation centers are reportedly being moved out to make room for a wave of arriving Ukrainians




					www.rt.com
				



As @DarthPutin KGB puts it ....


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## The Bread Guy (1 May 2022)

This ....








						Canada’s immigration backlog now exceeds 2 million persons
					

Immigration Canada's processing inventory now stands at more than 2 million people across all lines of business. The temporary and permanent residence backlog has increased. Meanwhile, the citizenship backlog went down to about 400,000 persons in April, compared to more than 453,000 in March...




					www.cicnews.com
				



... seems to be, in part, leading to this








						Afghan interpreters fear families 'forgotten' by Canada
					

Former interpreters say their families face major bureaucratic hurdles in effort to reach Canada.



					www.bbc.com
				



😥


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## The Bread Guy (9 Jun 2022)

Sooooooooooooo, are they still being reviewed or are they lost?


> The status of 2,900 applications from Afghans vetted by the Department of National Defence (DND) remains a mystery, one month after senior DND officials testified that only 900 of 3,800 vetted applications had been approved by the Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC) department.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


🍿


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## GK .Dundas (9 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Sooooooooooooo, are they still being reviewed or are they lost?
> 
> 🍿


The Minister has already told you they are not missing. He just doesn't know where they are.
Surely you can see the difference....🤔


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## The Bread Guy (9 Jun 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> The Minister has already told you they are not missing. He just doesn't know where they are.
> Surely you can see the difference....🤔


Silly me ....


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## GK .Dundas (9 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> 1)  Not just Canada juggling priorities.
> 2)  How RUS loves to stir the divisiveness pot (links to RUS state media)
> 
> 
> ...


And you better believe they are doing it here. Anyone see Facebook lately?


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## Good2Golf (10 Jun 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> The Minister has already told you they are not missing. He just doesn't know where they are.
> Surely you can see the difference....🤔


Indeed.  

The Afghan interprets and their families are just experiencing the status of their files differently than the Minister.


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## OldSolduer (11 Jun 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Indeed.
> 
> The Afghan interprets and their families are just experiencing the status of their files differently than the Minister.



It’s incredibly sad and disgusting how we treated the interpreters is it not?


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## Good2Golf (11 Jun 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It’s incredibly sad and disgusting how we treated the interpreters is it not?


I would say beyond sad and disgusting…it’s a travesty.  The Canadian Federal Government appears chronically unable to feel shame.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jun 2022)

Careful what you wish for when you toughen up terrorism laws .....


> Humanitarian and veterans’ groups trying to evacuate people who worked for Canada’s military and diplomatic mission in Afghanistan face major hurdles because Ottawa is strictly enforcing anti-terrorism law.
> 
> Non-governmental organizations (NGOs) say because the federal government is considering Afghanistan’s ruling Taliban a terrorist group, laws prohibiting financing of terrorism prevent them from making basic purchases in Afghanistan to get people out of the country.
> 
> ...


Archived link in case previous one doesn't work


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## The Bread Guy (2 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Careful what you wish for when you toughen up terrorism laws .....
> 
> Archived link in case previous one doesn't work


Looks like someone's _MAYBE_ wanting to fix things - we'll see ...








						Anti-Taliban law could be tweaked to get more humanitarian aid to Afghans: minister
					

A law outlawing any dealings with the Taliban, which charities complain is impeding their ability to help needy Afghans, could be adjusted by the federal government to give more flexibility to aid agencies.




					www.ctvnews.ca


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## Good2Golf (2 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Looks like someone's _MAYBE_ wanting to fix things - we'll see ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hopefully the Minister can architect something workable…


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## Jarnhamar (14 Jul 2022)

Best I can do is 50% - Trudeau

Ottawa closes special Afghan immigration program to new applicants​


> Less than halfway to its goal of bringing 40,000 Afghans to Canada, the federal government is no longer taking new referrals for the special immigration program meant to prioritize former employees of the Armed Forces or Canadian government and their families.
> 
> CBC News has learned the government is processing the last of the 18,000 applications filled out by Afghans hoping to come here through the special immigration program. Advocates for refugees say the decision to wind down the program abandons Afghans desperate to come to this country.
> 
> The program was set up nearly a year ago, a few weeks before Kabul fell to the Taliban in August, 2021 and before the government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau promised to bring 40,000 Afghans to safety here.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jul 2022)

Good question ...








						Why is Ottawa turning away from Afghans who helped Canada? ‘We’re failing them’ - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The federal government is reportedly winding down the program to welcome 18,000 Afghans who assisted Canada, including interpreters for the military and their families.




					globalnews.ca


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## Good2Golf (16 Jul 2022)

Shameful…

I have heard one one case where an interpreter was part of the pre-Taliban diplomatic corps in Canada, and GAC actually told them they couldn’t apply for amnesty under SIP and would have to…get ready for bureaucratic stupidity of the highest order…leave Canada and RETURN to now Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and reapply to SIP.  

I believe the interpreter thought he and his family had a better chance of living by giving up any priority previously promised by Canda, and to apply to the refugee program, instead of facing likely torture or death for he and his family at the hands of the Taliban.

I can’t help but think that both our politicians and some senior bureaucrats in GAC and IRCC need a good smack upside the head… 😡


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## OldSolduer (18 Jul 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Shameful…
> 
> I have heard one one case where an interpreter was part of the pre-Taliban diplomatic corps in Canada, and GAC actually told them they couldn’t apply for amnesty under SIP and would have to…get ready for bureaucratic stupidity of the highest order…leave Canada and RETURN to now Taliban-controlled Afghanistan and reapply to SIP.
> 
> ...


It’s blatant effing stupidity is what it is. Firing these assholes would be the best COA.

I can’t help but think race and Color have a lot to do with it. Add to that the apparent institutional loathing some Federal government departments have towards the CAF - it sounds like a big “fuck you CAF and your interpreters” .

I’m angry 😡


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## Good2Golf (18 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It’s blatant effing stupidity is what it is. Firing these assholes would be the best COA.
> 
> I can’t help but think race and Color have a lot to do with it. Add to that the apparent institutional loathing some Federal government departments have towards the CAF - it sounds like a big “fuck you CAF and your interpreters” .
> 
> I’m angry 😡


@OldSolduer I think you may be giving more credit to the bureaucrats than they deserve, I sense less that they are capable and vindictive, but rather inept and lazy and simply collecting a fat government paycheck while not truly caring about others whose lives may very well depend on them.  That is where the shameful nature comes into play.


----------

