# Chaplain ( Merged )



## FriarVic

I recieved this comment on another post:



> some padres feel it‘s too militaristic to wear a Regimental cap badge (hmmm ... a military padre who doesn‘t want to be perceived as too militaristic ... hmmm ...)


It raises a question that I struggle with, and would appreciete some input.

THe question is "How military do the  _soldiers_  want their Padre‘s?"

It appears that those commanding would like to tuck away the padre into a nice safe place, lest God forbid, they acutally have to be where they could do some good.

I do not have aspirations of becoming Rambo the warrior preist/navy seal/jtf2 sniper       (Ok maybe a little)  But there has to be a better place for me than in the rear.  

Thoughts?


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## Infanteer

I always liked the idea of the Padre from Starship Troopers, giving the soldiers a prayer before dropping into combat with them....

Anyways, I will admit that I am less knowledgeable about the daily duties of a Padre.  I would like to see the role of the Padre expanded to be something of a morale officer.  Not only handling the spiritual needs of the soldiers, but dealing with other welfare needs as well.  Someone had the good idea of putting the Padre in charge of helping soldiers with their leave arrangements and stuff overseas.  Why not?  Gives him something to do and gets rid of the flakes from PSP who collect big bucks and don‘t do much.

We have a social worker officer MOC code, why does a Padre not handle that form of welfare?  I may be reaching here, but I‘m just trying to maximize efficency by putting the Padre in charge of troops welfare.


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## Armymedic

Let me jump in...
We should have regimental padres, and no, they should not wear regimental capbadges, just like all the support trades. First line support is where the padre should be. 

Just to clear up Social workers. While to the layman the two may seem to do the same thing, and the paths they follow are close, the type of counselling/help they provide can be very diffrent. Padre‘s would, for example, help better with family issues such as death, illnes, etc, where matters of faith assist in resolution of the crisis. Social Worker Officers (SWO) are a second line assest in the health services. SWO are better trained in issues of low self esteem (pre/post suicide, post divorce), family strife, alcohol abuse where prolonged counselling with subsequent psychatic consults may be required. Just to skim the surface for both.

To answer the initial post...
military enough to survive (as a non combatant, as per the Geneva Conventions) on a high intesity battlefield with out needing last rites himself, cause if they can survive there...


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## MJP

> Not only handling the spiritual needs of the soldiers, but dealing with other welfare needs as well.


I don‘t know how other units (Reg) use their padres, but ours is exactly what you described.  He is pretty much the unit welfare officer.  He‘s the one we send soldiers too when they need compassionate leave and he interviews all members(especially married ones) before they leave on any sort of overseas operation.  He also acts as the frontline contact for the social workers, weeding out the ones that need only a liitle help/intervention.  I like it allot better as it keeps things low-level and in-house.  

The flip side of it is they tend to err on the side of caution and extend compassionate leave(or grant it) under very dubious circumstances.  Or they lean towards lenincy when a member has gotten himself in major hot water.  I‘ve seen members give a huge sob story to the padre that effectivly led to the member getting off scot free.


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## Tpr.Orange

We just sent our units padre to Afghanistan. Shes was actually just written up in the Maple Leaf. 
 http://www.army.dnd.ca/25Service_Battalion/images/overseas/709-07.pdf 

if you go to the site www.25service.ca you can check out the letters she send back talking about what she does in Afghanistan. 

Just thought you might like this read


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## rcrman

Thank God for the Padres ! They are much needed in the military and look out for the troops. The are a key figure when deploying overseas and ou can talk  open and frank with them, no matter what rank you may be, they in fact are an asset that are there for your well being, spiritually and mentally. 

God bless them all !


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## FriarVic

Here‘s the tossup:

Put the padre with hq or let him out on patrol.  I think it is a legitimate command struggle.

On one hand, it‘s pretty hard to have any kind of ministry to those who are cold wet and miserable, by greeting them as they return from a patrol in your dry vehicle with a cup of coffee in your hand.

On the other hand, there are those who see you as an asset that should not be placed in the feild as you can‘t be replaced at the drop of a hat, and are needed.

I know where I would rather be, (understanding of course that you cannot be a liability to a mission). I have an idea where the CO might want me to be.  

The Question is:
Where do the trooper‘s want me to be?


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## Exvitae

Before I post, one caveat:  I am not an active member of the CF but am currently in the recruiting process to be an armoured soldier and I am speaking from a Catholic background but will try my best to be ecumenical.

I expect any minister to be able to assist me in furthering my relationship with God and those around me.  If that‘s in a foxhole while on exercise in the middle of winter somewhere in Alberta or over a cup of coffee in the jr. ranks mess then so be it.  

We all have parameters to work within and if yours limit you to being here or there as opposed to there or here then I can accept that and will seek you out when I am in need of spiritual advice or am having a time when I need your assistance.

I‘d like to think that a padre would be available to me at all times wether on patrol or at base if I were ever deployed somewhere truly hostile.  

I liked the Padre in Band of Brothers... I think he‘s only shown in three scenes but I was impressed nonetheless.  

I guess combat theology isn‘t covered in the seminary!

mm


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## Padraig OCinnead

We generally want you to be accessible and easy to find, when we need you. Padres don‘t have to be everywhere always for everyone. But a friendly hello while passing in the hallways in the headshed or while doing det maintanance in the compound are just as good as greeting them on return from a patrol. I never think of the Padre till I need him. But it‘s comforting to know that if he‘s switched on you can pop your head in any time, be it his office in Garrison or at C/S 8 while in the field.


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## Danjanou

Caveat or not, I think you nailed it there Exvitae. 

It‘s tough call where to be Father, sometimes being in the trenches is needed, somtimes we find it easier to come to you in the nice warm tent, just make sure there‘s an extra hot cup of coffee.   

Personally I‘m not overtly religious and was probably less so in years past when I wore a uniform, however I never felt that a Padre was not an essential part of a unit, in fact the exact opposite. That is probably more so now with the increased pace of operations and deployments we‘ve seen.

I‘ve sent more than one soldier for counselling and he or she has come back having received what they needed, and enabled to get on with the job. Yeah sure some may abuse that as noted, but those are the same troops that would probably do the same with a Medical chit. 

When I went through a bad patch myself many years pago, the Padre was there, not intrusive but letting me know if I wanted to talk, he was available. I eventually took him up on the offer.

I‘ve seen more than my share of poor religious leaders either in person or in the media, which may explain my cynical attitudes at times, however none have been military Padres I‘m proud to say.

Even had the pleasure of teaching a section of them on the old Block 3S in Aldershot in 1987.

Your approach to the questions here on the board validates my points FriarVic. Not intrusive, polite and attempting to understand the rather unique needs of your flock .


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## Bert

While in St. Jean on BMQ, I was able to see Padres in action.

BMQ is not a tough course by military standards.  The average recruit going through the 10 week program would find it to be a bit of a shock.  Some more than others as an example.  

In the Mega, the Padre would patrol around and talk to the recruits and the staff.  You‘d find him during the fitness test, the 13 km march, around the corner, in the mess eating with different platoons, always visible, accessible, and eventually meet with everyone at one point or another.

Even if you never needed the kindness of the Padre, it was comforting to know he/she was there,
visible, and accessible.  For a couple people in my platoon, it meant alot.


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## chk2fung

Was Padre James at the Mega when you were on BMQ Bert?  She was great, she would go on 5:00am runs with my platoon.  She was always super nice when you had to see her.  Padres without a doubt are very vital to the Forces.  You would be surprised how often people seek the Padre.


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## Bert

I never knew the name but there was a Padre by your very description who gave me a gummy bear during the 13 km march.  Another was Padre Lucien
if my spelling is correct who helped a member of my platoon go home for a weekend when his father was very sick.  He was there providing encouragement during the fitness test in the pool.
Always sat with a different platoon during lunch and supper talking with the recruits.


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## 1feral1

Knew a MAJ Padre from Saskatchewan. Basil Chomos is is name. The most approachable man I ever met. Popular with the troops, and a very warm and caring bloke, who had a natural calmness about him, yet to look at him you‘d never in a 1000 yrs think he was an RC Padre.

Back in Aug 95, he was thru Australia, and stayed a few days at my place. It was sure good to catch up with him.

Hey Basil, if you read this, ‘good on ya‘.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by FriarVic:
> [qb] I recieved this comment on another post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> some padres feel it‘s too militaristic to wear a Regimental cap badge (hmmm ... a military padre who doesn‘t want to be perceived as too militaristic ... hmmm ...)
> 
> 
> 
> It raises a question that I struggle with, and would appreciete some input.
> 
> THe question is "How military do the  _soldiers_  want their Padre‘s?"
> 
> It appears that those commanding would like to tuck away the padre into a nice safe place, lest God forbid, they acutally have to be where they could do some good.
> 
> I do not have aspirations of becoming Rambo the warrior preist/navy seal/jtf2 sniper         (Ok maybe a little)  But there has to be a better place for me than in the rear.
> 
> Thoughts? [/qb]
Click to expand...

Friar,my experience in the Engineers when the Padre comes on site we ask him would he like to have ago at what ever we are doing whether its on the Demo Range,Rifle Range,building a bridge etc.The more you know about our job the easier it is for you to relate to us when we need help or just someone to talk to.

As for the C.O. he has no choice if you want to go on Exercise,its your job to go out and see everyone and if allowed to have some hands on fun if there is time.Its yor flock so to speak.   


In 1 CER we had Padre Muller(sp),he was born and grew up in the States and came North and ended up joining the CF.
He played sports,went on Exercise and took part on bridge builds etc.He was loved by all because he took the time to get to know the Engineer trade and those who executed it.

We went to Minnesota for U.N. work up training (95)and he was not allowed to go with us,about 7/8 days later who turns up?Padre Muller,he scamed a flight to Winnipeg and then rented a car and drove down to come and see us and traveled all over meeting all of us on the job 

As for wearing the Badge of the Unit your with I say go for it,I for one would be impressed with it because to me it states this is our Sky Pilot.   

Hope this helps.


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## bossi

My first padre handed down this nugget to us:  "There are no aethists in foxholes."

And, who could forget the immortal "Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition"?

Not that it‘s my area of expertise, but doesn‘t a shepherd usually go with his flock ... ?

Having said that, one must temper discretion with "valour" - going on patrol would help a padre better understand his flock, however ... a padre is unarmed, except for faith 
(... unless he or she just happens to pick up a lead-projectile-emitting "flashlight" and use it as a "noise-maker" to scare the bad guys away instead of hurting them ... chuckle - there‘s a famous story of a padre during the Second World War who helped capture a large group of German soldiers - he picked up an unloaded weapon and turned up his collar so they couldn‘t see his collar dogs ... and when one German officer realised what was up and started to protest the infantry corporal laid him out with a butt stroke ... "pour encourager les autres" ...)

Bottom line:  It‘s just like hockey - normally the goalie (and the padre) has to stay home - playing your position, and playing it well, otherwise you let others down - it‘s all part of being a winning team.

P.S. (I just realised I‘m being a little hypocritical - mea culpa - I can‘t say too much, but yes - I‘ve been guilty of taking the padre on patrol ... but I guess the Lord sometimes smiles on fools and drunk Irishmen, eh?)


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## Exvitae

I knew a Father Lucien in Winnipeg who had been a Padre in the CF.  He was working for the Archdiocese back in 1999 so maybe it wasn‘t the same guy... he was very proud of his time as a Padre and had photos all over his office and memorbilia throughout the rectory.


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## Pugnacious

Greetings!
Are Canadian Army Chaplains expected, and trained to fight along side the other troops?

Are they armed and in the field of combat also?

How is the ethics of  taking life (or potental of) handled by their group?

This is all I found so far with no answers to these questions:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=305

Cheers!
P.


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## spenco

Hi, I thought that Chaplains weren't allowed to carry weapons at all, can anyone confirm this?


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## dutchie

To my knowlege, they are not authourized to use force. I know of instances in WW2 where they did, but that was then, and this is now.

In todays secular world (and Army), they seem to have become unit psychologists/cousellors. They also interview troops prior to deployment to ensure they are ready (their home life, etc), as well as when they return from tour. 

Last summer while firefighting in BC, we had a padre come into our section, and he fire was like a walking, talking morale booster.....not to mention one of the most enthusiastic firefighters there.

I see no conflict with their role, they are there to preserve and help improve life, as well as provide religious guidance to those who want it. They don't take life, so no conflict.
They are a valuble asset in my view.


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## Foxhound

I remember once, waaaaaaaay back at a platoon smoker, the Protestant Chaplain dropped by with the OC.  He started chatting with us and one of the questions he was asked was, "Are you allowed to fight?", or words to that effect.  His answer was that even though he wasn't supposed to perform a combat role he would, if necessary, defend himself and others with whatever means available to him up to and including picking up a rifle and aiming at the center of the visible mass.

Needless to say he made some new friends.


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## Pugnacious

"To my knowlege, they are not authourized to use force."

Even in Self defence?
Protecting fellow soldiers  ?
Do they recive any weapons or soldier trianing?

Are they recognized as some form of non-combatant under international law?

Sorry for the extra questions.;D

BTW: I also think they fill an important role, and are needed. 

Cheers!
P.


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## 1feral1

We got a Padre, a CAPT and he wears the webbing and gets totally camed up etc, but I have never seen him with a rifle. I am by no means a religious person, but all SNCO and Offrs do attend his services whilst in the field, and they are awesome. Recently he used two pieces of timber wrapped with barbed wire, and always has something good to say, well getting the 'good' word accross.

He must be in his 40s and is always involved with the Lads, even getting work expereince on the gun line, and participating in any of the COs challenges of extreme trg, etc.

Even the God Squad works hard and plays hard!

Well liked and respected by all ranks within the regt.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Michael Dorosh

I believe clergy are permitted by the Geneva convention to carry sidearms or personal weapons, just as medical personnel are.  I've not heard of Canadian clergy doing so, nor would they be expected to do so.

In World War Two, there is photographic evidence that German chaplains did carry weapons for personal protection - part of their uniform was a red cross, the international symbol for "Don't Shoot".   Given the nature of warfare on the Eastern Front, one can understand the weapons.

I would be surprised to find that Canadian clergy ever actually did carry weapons, however, even if permitted to carry.  

The most famous Canadian chaplain in WW II may have been Honourary Captain John Foote, who won the Victoria Cross at Dieppe for volunteering to stay on the beaches and tend to his men in captiivity.  He was seen on the beach firing a Bren Gun during the battle.


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## Pugnacious

Wow, neat stuff.

Cheers!
P.


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## greydak

A padre's word of advice can be over-powered by your platoon or company commanders, but that almost never happens because most think his word is too close to gods? 
  Thats what I was told.


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## pbi

To answer your questions:

"_Are Canadian Army Chaplains expected, and trained to fight along side the other troops?_

Chaplains complete a reduced form of Basic Officer Training. They are not trained to actually engage in combat, since this is really not their role, although they are of great value to troops on operations (Let me tell you...) Chaplains serve in the field right alongside the troops-this is why they aer so important. With all the ops we do today, we have re-discovered the importance of the Chaplain.

_Are they armed and in the field of combat also?_

We don't usually arm them. In theory they could be armed for self defence (like medics are) but I have never seen it.

_How is the ethics of  taking life (or potental of) handled by their group?_

It varies from chaplain to chaplain, but as a group the chaplaincy has obviously accepted the fact that the purpose of the military is to use force to achieve a goal. If this were not true there would be no Chaplain Branch. "Using force" means killing and destroying when these are called for. You might think that Christians cannot accept this but in fact Christianity and most of the major religions (incl Islam and Judaism) have for centuries recognized the "Just War"theory or some variant of it. The chaplains don't take life themselves, but they minister to the spiritual and psychological needs and sufferings of those of us who do (or whose role is to...) This is a huge task for our chaplains and one that in my opinion and experience they carry out in an outstanding manner. However, some smaller Christian denominations (such as the United Church) have in the past expressed disagreement with the role of the Chaplaincy, mainly because of pacifist tendencies or very literal and selective interpretations of the Christian faith. In my opinion the Chaplains also do a good job of keeping us between the ethical and moral fences through their work. I'm all for them! Cheers.


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## combat_medic

Members of the Chaplaincy, just as Medical Personnel are considered non-combattants and are protected under the Geneva Convention. 

For example, a medic or a chaplain is not supposed to be taken prisoner unless there is an immediate need for their skills. If they are not needed, they are supposed to be released. They are also not supposed to take any offensive action against the enemy, and only supposed to be armed in self-defense or take defensive actions. You can look here:

http://www.victoriacross.net/award.asp?vc=417

about a Canadian Chaplain who won the Victoria Cross by tending to the wounded and then turning himself over to the Germans in order to give aid and comfort to his own men who had already been captured. Great story!

However, with current asymetric warfare, and with the majority of potential enemies being non-signatories of the Geneva Convention, things may not always work out the way they're "supposed" to.


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## pbi

Combat Medic: good (if somewhat disturbing) observation ref the applicability of the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) in "asymmetric warfare". 

While we are clearly bound by the NDA to follow these rules, others are not. In fact, others may not even know what they are. This is the ancient problem that has faced conventional armies since the Legions tried to keep order in ancient Britain: if the bad guys torture and butcher, do we? Probably not: at least not if we don't want to: a) be imprisoned or b) have similar retaliation against our own PWs. 

But what do you tell your troops when they find Bloggins nailed to a tree? Huge dilemma, and not one I'd pretend to know the perfect answer to. Our historical track record on the "care and feeding" of PWs is mixed, but in general I think we'e done not too badly if stacked up against the world average. Cheers.


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## Trinity

Steve031 said:
			
		

> Padre: do you think your job would exist in the CF if it did not contribute to the ultimate capabilities of the military: that is fighting wars?  Your job is about helping soldiers with spirituality, morality etc.  The reason the military wants these soldiers to be helped is so that they can do their job as effectively as possible (either helping them directly, or knowing that help is there if they need it at some point).



Steve...

I'm not really sure how to respond to you.  You are clinging to this one point for sheer life and refuse to give it up.
The sum of what Chaplains do cannot be summed up into making the troops feel better so they can wage war.

I even posted parts of the manual, which states during war chaplains protect POW's, civilians, do projects in local areas, etc.
That does not help soldiers with spirituality and help wage war.  It is part of being a moral compas and helping all irregardless of
who they are. 

I did not disagree to say that a small part of what we do can be seen as what you are saying happens, but, our job is spiritual
care of the soldier irregardless of war, training, tour, releasing.  We are the only trade in the CF that provides services to families
of soldiers (i.e. civilians). (That i'm aware of).  

If you want to take one specific point of this trade and make it the back bone of your argument I can't stop you.
But let me re-irrerate, there is one line in the 15 chapter manual that supports what you say.  Thats 15 chapters!!!
So how much MORE does my trade entail? 

How about you just trust me on this???? It is my trade.


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## Steve031

Sorry Padre, I don't mean to trivialize your trade.  But if you boil down everything you've listed, from protecting POWs to helping with humanitarian aid, all of these roles have one ultimate goal in mind: the furtherance of the military's role.  For example, by protecting POWs you are preventing a bad public relations problem from occurring (such as Abu Garhaib).  My point is that you wouldn't have a job if it did not contribute to the goal of the military, which is fighting wars.

In Calgary, my unit is involved extensively with our affiliated Cadet unit and I believe this is a very good thing.  The advantage of having reservists as instructors for cadet units is obvious, however Cadets cannot be instructed by just any reservist.  That's why we have the CIC, only problem being that CIC training is so limited that most CIC officers can do very little well, but almost everything (within their trade) mediocre.  It's easy to allow ourselves to be caught up in the rhetoric of CIC haters, but if you take away their rough edges I think you'll find these people do make some legitimate points.


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## Trinity

Steve

I think I know why we are having this problem..

I'm looking at my trade from a pastoral point of view (which obviously I should)

You are looking from an objective or goal oriented position.

One can interpret the same data in different ways.



			
				Steve031 said:
			
		

> the goal of the military, which is fighting wars.



I would disagree with this statement.  It is very broad and misleading.

To quote from the Chaplains Manual, Chapter 01, para 2



> 2.	The fundamental purpose of the military is to serve in defence of the nation, and to protect its interests at home and abroad. This involves both the disciplined application of lethal force and the unlimited liability of every soldier. The military can only remain effective, however, if its personnel and material requirements are recognized, understood, and supported by Canadians, and as long as it is seen by Canadians to affirm and reflect those good and basic qualities which define us as a nation.



Defence of the nation does not mean wage war.
Protect the interest of the nation at home and abroad.

Thus, peacekeeping
domestic operations
humanitarian aid  

are three simple examples of the Army in legitimate purposes which do not "wage war" as your definition
is the only purpose of the army.

So both your definitions of soldier and the definition or pupose of the army I would have to politely disagree with.


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## the 48th regulator

> Sorry Padre, I don't mean to trivialize your trade.  But if you boil down everything you've listed, from protecting POWs to helping with humanitarian aid, all of these roles have one ultimate goal in mind: the furtherance of the military's role.  For example, by protecting POWs you are preventing a bad public relations problem from occurring (such as Abu Garhaib).  My point is that you wouldn't have a job if it did not contribute to the goal of the military, which is fighting wars.



What sort of mambo ja hambo is that???  Prevent bad public relations.  Wouldn't have a job if it was not for us...fighting wars...

This should break into another thread I think we can get some good dialogue/debate going.  As for this statement;



> I'm not going to argue each individual case, because I'm not trying to say it's alright for NCMs not to salute an officer.  I'm just explaining why so many of us feel this way.



What's this us  stuff?? you got a mouse in yer pocket?  I never felt that way, I have been 031 over 15 years.  Sure there is that feeling that the cadets are our little brothers and sisters, but we are all of the same regimental family.  The CIC's in our regiment are respected as an officer holding a commission in OUR regimental family, and are offered the same High five.

dileas

tess


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## McG

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> This should break into another thread I think we can get some good dialogue/debate going.


Done.


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## the 48th regulator

cheers brother,

dileas

tess


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## aesop081

Trinity said:
			
		

> Steve
> 
> Defence of the nation does not mean wage war.
> Protect the interest of the nation at home and abroad.
> 
> Thus, peacekeeping
> domestic operations
> humanitarian aid
> 
> are three simple examples of the Army in legitimate purposes which do not "wage war" as your definition
> is the only purpose of the army.



At the risk of being struck by lightning, i will disagree with you.  Peacekeeping and humanitarian endevours are NOT what the goverment trains soldiers for, no matter how much it makes the public "feel-good". Having served in peacekeeping operations, they are a a pointless political maneouvre. The purpose of the military in to impose the will of the government by the application of controlled military force, everything else is just smoke and mirrors.


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## the 48th regulator

uhuh nope.

We train for peacekeeping as well,

At least I remember we did before our tour, and I am sure the troops, right now going to places that are peacekeeping oriented, train for that as well.

As for being a political will....

well you, and I have seen eye to eye many many times, and once again you hit the nail on the head.

dileas

tess


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## Alex252

:


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## aesop081

Alex252 said:
			
		

> :



What are you rolling your eyes for ? How many operations overseas have you served on ? I did not arrived at my conclusion based on news reports......I've been there and done that.

Tess, i see where you are comming from regards to training but i look at it this way: On my QL3, QL5A, QL5B and QL6A....there was nothing oriented towards peackeeping. I learn how to lay minefields and booby-traps to KILL enemy soldiers. Learnt demolitions to allow our forces to KILL the ennemy....se what i am getting at ?

Don't get me wrong, not to take away from shared events but .....

"close with and destroy the ennemy" not " close with and distribute food aid"   ;D

"assist freindly troops to live, move and fight on the battlefield and deny the same to the ennemy" not " build schools to make the liberals look good on the CBC news"


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## the 48th regulator

hehehehe 

true dat,

but you also learned how to disarm them, and if it was not for the likes of yourself, as well as many others of your former and blessed trade (hehe had to throw that one in on this thread) there woud be  a hell of a lot more maimed and dead.

ain't that all about peace love and no bell bottoms...

chimo and dileas

tess


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## aesop081

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> hehehehe
> 
> true dat,
> 
> but you also learned how to disarm them, and if it was not for the likes of yourself, as well as many others of your former and blessed trade (hehe had to throw that one in on this thread) there woud be   a hell of a lot more maimed and dead.
> 
> ain't that all about peace love and no bell bottoms...
> 
> chimo and dileas
> 
> tess



lol........but i learnt how to disarm them so that our troops could pass safely to ..........wait for it.........KILL the ennemy !

Anyways...back to padres

Alex 252, i'm still waiting for your $.02 : ...........


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## Steve031

You've gotta look at the role of the army in terms of what it is designed to do:  apply lethal force to support the will of our government.  The role of every member of the military is centred around that goal.

As for peacekeeping, yes it is a capability we have as an institution.  Before we get into the whole 3 block war thing, I'd like to state that the one role that the military has that no other organization does is high intensity warfare.  Police officers can peacekeep, in fact they do.  They can't fight wars, that's the unique capability of the CF.

As far as looking at Padres, I contest that their role is in the support of CF operations which include warfare.  This discussion started because a disagreement on whether or not Padres are soldiers.  IMO they are because of their support role during combat operations.


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## the 48th regulator

Your losing me here, you stated that;




> For example, by protecting POWs you are preventing a bad public relations problem from occurring (such as Abu Garhaib)



Now they are soldier like us bringing down the medieval fist to Godless heathens who occupy the ground that we will take and hold...

I understand the will of a military, and I see the gist of yer rant, but your all over the place, with the padre statements, like a near sighted mortar team.

dileas

tess


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## aesop081

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Your losing me here, you stated that;
> 
> 
> 
> Now they are soldier like us bringing down the medieval fist to Godless heathens who occupy the ground that we will take and hold...
> 
> I understand the will of a military, and I see the gist of yer rant, but your all over the place the place with the padre statements like a near sighted mortar team.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess




 ;D


----------



## Trinity

Steve

In all fairness, I have not overlooked your point / argument, although everytime
you reword it, your applied use of military doctrine irks me.  

Its not apply lethal force at the will of the Government....

The military does not exist to 'war'.

The military exists to serve to protect the best interest of the country whether home or abroad.
Now,  be it war, domestic operations, peacekeeping or whatever the government decides.
(See previous post for exact military doctrine wording)



> and your job isn't to justify immoral actions, but your job is basically to help soldiers deal with the moral ramifications of taking life.



And we're back to square one.  Yes, that is one aspect of my job.  And nicely worded.

But you say *BASICALLY*... which entails its my major or primary function.  This has been
your same point in at least three post now.  

So NO, it is not basically my job.  The role of the chaplain entails a wide variety of duties (which have been previously posted)


My only concern is your casual use of defining military doctrine, definitions of what a soldier is, or
in this case, saying BASICALLY.....

Lets put it this way..  you're infantry.
So if i say basically you support tanks during FIBUA i'd be wrong...  
Yes that is a role of what you do, but you do so much more.

or You kill the enemy.
But you also hold key areas
Do security
Snatch and Grabs
Take prisoners of war and so on....


So yes, your training is to closeforth with and kill the enemy.  But you also do
so much more as required. 

Thats not the best example, but its the only one i can think of at the moment. So don't shred
my example!!!!! Instead, if you don't like it, come up with a new one PLEASE.

At this point, really, I'm going to have to say we have to agree to disagree.
I am pretty secure in my knowledge of my trade and my roles that I am to fulfil. 

From where I stand with my military experience, years in, regiments served with I can
pretty much firmly stand behind my *opinion*. (remember, its all just opinion.)

I'm not trying to change your opinion anymore as much as provide you factual infomration
on chaplaincy in hopes you better understand our roles.  I didn't mean for a thread to start
out of this.  (Actually I didn't, a mod did and threw my name on it)

Remember, Chaplains are your friends.  I don't want to come off as a jerk or impolite and taint anyones opinion
of chaplains based on any of my posts here, which is why i've tried to be concise, factual with the manual and to the point.
But I recognize that we are not going to make any progress on this point and it should be dropped so we can move
onto another one... whatever it may be.

Blessings to all.....

Trinity


----------



## beach_bum

When my father took ill, it was the padre who talked to me.  When my father died....again, it was the padre who helped me.  This had nothing to do with war.....but someone to help me spiritually and emotionally.


----------



## aesop081

Trinity said:
			
		

> I am pretty secure in my knowledge of my trade and my roles that I am to fulfil.



I would certainly hope so  ;D



			
				beach_bum said:
			
		

> When my father took ill, it was the padre who talked to me.   When my father died....again, it was the padre who helped me.   This had nothing to do with war.....but someone to help me spiritually and emotionally.



It didnt have to do with war but it did help you so that you would be in an improved emotional state so that you could perform your duties which include putting hot lead into other human beings......also know as WAR. I'm sorry about you father and i am glad that there was a padre to help you come to terms with that, i realy am but the military does not hire these guys/gals just for the hell of it ( no punt intended....sorry trinity  ;D), its to get you back to being fit to fight.


----------



## Duke

"It didnt have to do with war but it did help you so that you would be in an improved emotional state so that you could perform your duties which include putting hot lead into other human beings......also know as WAR. I'm sorry about you father and i am glad that there was a padre to help you come to terms with that, i realy am but the military does not hire these guys/gals just for the heck of it ( no punt intended....sorry trinity  ), its to get you back to being fit to fight."

So the Padres are the ones that put bloodlust into soldiers??????

Duke


----------



## aesop081

Duke said:
			
		

> So the Padres are the ones that put bloodlust into soldiers??????
> 
> Duke



Becareful of the words you put in my mouth.  I did not say that padres put "bloodlust" into soldiers.  I'm only guessing you can read english.  Padres, social workers, the member assistance program, financial counselling...etc... are there because a happy soldier is a productive soldier who can concentrate on his job.  That is what i meant and you should have seen that


----------



## Duke

Perhaps it was the sentence I quoted and this one "its to get you back to being fit to fight." that caused my confusion. 

And yes, I can read/write and speak English.

Duke


----------



## aesop081

Duke said:
			
		

> Perhaps it was the sentence I quoted and this one "its to get you back to being fit to fight." that caused my confusion.
> 
> And yes, I can read/write and speak English.
> 
> Duke



I used "fit to fight" because thats what our jobs entail in one way or another.   I could have said "push the broom in troop stores every friday" but that is not the ultimate reason why we get paid. Are you more clear now ?


----------



## Duke

Yes,

It sounds much more 'pastoral'.

Duke


----------



## aesop081

Just like the CF medical system doesnt exist just because the government like to spend money for no reason.  Patch the soldier up so he can get back into the fight and when he is in the fight, to give him the confidence that should he be injured, he will be taken care of. This allows the soldier to "get on with it".  Padres do the same thing in a spiritual way i guess.

And yes , some soldiers are aprehensive about having to kill other human beings, someone has to be there to reasure them that they are doing the proper thing.


----------



## Trinity

I so want this thread to die....

When Beach_Bum said it had nothing to do with war...
I believe she was referring to the fact Steve said it does.

(NO FLAMES.. NO REPLIES)

let me go in Peace.... PLEASE.... 

Beach, thank you for sharing something so deeply personal to help us grow in understanding.


----------



## aesop081

Trinity said:
			
		

> I so want this thread to die....
> 
> When Beach_Bum said it had nothing to do with war...
> I believe she was referring to the fact Steve said it does.
> 
> (NO FLAMES.. NO REPLIES)
> 
> let me go in Peace.... PLEASE....



 ;D


----------



## the 48th regulator

padre,

whatsa matta???   You want this this thread to die.

Yer beginning to sound just like a time when I was taking this Cpl. out for a ruck march.   His ruck was full of all of this useless stuff, which made his pack too heavy to carry.   Well you could imagine what I said and did. hmm, I believe he was a medic or something..Good guy, never gave up....

dileas 

tess


----------



## Trinity

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> padre,
> 
> whatsa matta???  You want this this thread to die.
> 
> Yer beginning to sound just like a time when I was taking this Cpl. out for a ruck march.  His ruck was full of all of this useless stuff, which made his pack too heavy to carry.  Well you could imagine what I said and did. hmm, I believe he was a medic or something..Good guy, never gave up....
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess





Yeah... sounds real familiar, except I was a MCpl..

I mean.. that guy was a MCpl.....

(pillows and helium balloons... from now on!)

In fairness we had no inkling of a Ruck that weekend, i was supposed to be driving, and
I had my medic jumpbag to boot...  I couldn't lift the ruck on my back it was fracking heavy.

Good lesson.. never again do I assume anything. I pack light and double up uses on kit ALWAYS.


----------



## Trinity

ugh...

Its 9 am... just woke up... what who do i realize....

Tess is right.. I was a Cpl.  It was 99...
I was post JLC but not promoted

my bad    ^-^


----------



## the 48th regulator

They didn't make me Sgt. because of my dry wit and humour. . . .

It is ingrained in us Catholics to remember things...it helps for us to feel guilty about something...

By the way did I ever tell you the one about Jesus and the Last supper..


I better stop before the lightening hits..


dileas

tess


----------



## beach_bum

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> It is ingrained in us Catholics to remember things...it helps for us to feel guilty about something...



Hmmmm...funny enough I used that same line myself a couple of days ago!


----------



## the 48th regulator

> Hmmmm...funny enough I used that same line myself a couple of days ago!



You see Trinity,

I am still doing the influencing...

Maybe the title of this thread should be;


The Roll of the 48th regulator and the CF

btw the Way, did I tell you the one about the Blessed Joseph and the morning after the Wedding Feast at Cana in Galilee?.....

oops I am going to hades for that one...

dileas

tess


----------



## S McKee

Just came across this topic. Very interesting....

A couple of questions for Trinity regarding the Chaplaincy. I reviewed the CF Chaplains site it is decidedly "Christian" in flavor. How is the Chaplaincy going to reconcile itself to the varied faith groups that now exist in the CF?  For example on the site it states "Within the context of a public ceremony the chaplain is the sole representative of all faith groups. Where various faith groups and a wide range of beliefs are likely to exist, normally prayers should be inclusive in nature respecting the wide range of faith groups and believers who may be present. The religious celebrant is encouraged to be sensitive in the use of specific sacred faith formulas to allow for greater inclusivity." That is going to be quite a task if a Protestant or RC Chaplain is praying on behalf of Muslims, Jews, Buddists or Orthodox Christains. Is ecumenicalism going work on this level? How do you feel about a "regular" chaplian i.e mainline denomination praying on behalf of another faith to another god?


----------



## Trinity

ok... I was so hoping this thread would die.

I do not speak on behalf or for the chaplains branch.

When doing open or group prayers, all prayers must be generic.
I.E. No using Jesus Christ or other specific religious terms... as not to
offend Jews or Muslims 

We do have a Muslim Chaplain who will do the same.
We have incoming Jewish Chaplains who will do the same.

Its a generic service.

Private services such as baptism or extra church services can be done
in your own denomination. 

The branch is VERY sensitive to the other religions.  So much so the
capbadge is changing and many other aspects that most soldiers do
not see.

Rest assured.. we are trying to be fair and eccumenical.



			
				Jumper said:
			
		

> Is ecumenicalism going work on this level? How do you feel about a "regular" chaplian i.e mainline denomination praying on behalf of another faith to another god?



BTW... Same God..  The God of the Jews is also the same God of the Christians and Muslims.

Same history and heritage, scriptures and beliefs flow through all three.

And this was a heated argument earlier which I will not revisit. Internet arguments are pointless, but feel
free to find and read it.


----------



## S McKee

Sorry didn't know that you wanted the thread to die... thanks for your thoughts


----------



## Gunner98

Steve031 said:
			
		

> You've gotta look at the role of the army in terms of what it is designed to do:  apply lethal force to support the will of our government.  The role of every member of the military is centred around that goal.
> 
> As far as looking at Padres, I contest that their role is in the support of CF operations which include warfare.  This discussion started because a disagreement on whether or not Padres are soldiers.  IMO they are because of their support role during combat operations.



If I understand the extracted quotes from Steve, the medical/dental folks that carry the Geneva Convention Card are soldiers for the same reasoning.  However, like the Padre we are forbidden from participating in offensive operations and applying lethal force, we are there to preserve manpower, limb and life.  We (Padres and Medical/Dental) in fact support both sides in a conflict a similar fashion depending on the phase of battle and the scarcity of resources.  It has gotten to the point for medical/dental folks that we are forbidden, by our Sr C-of-C, in peacetime on a parade square to draw swords or fix bayonets.  On Ops and FTXs, we rely on D&S platoons so we are not seen as offensive or even defensively-offensive in nature.

Like it or not the Padres and the Red Crescent wearers are like the sideline support people (trainers, water boys at a football game.  We don't get to soldier/play, we only watch and support. The level of familiarization for many with offensive, non-personal weapons is not even at basic soldiering levels any more.  

That is the way it is and when the bullets fly or the mines explode you will understand why!  Do you want a surgeon/padre who is a soldier/pathfinder/sniper or one that is good at his/her own job.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

Padres in the Forces serve many masters. One of my  closest friends is a retired army padre.  His job in the regiment and on the base was not instill fear or blood lust in soldiers. His job was to provide spiritual guidance, some one to talk to about the problems you do not want to talk about in the mess, or in the barraks,  and I am sure most padres could tell very interesting stories about various soldiers but they cannot talk about what they hear. 

Sometimes things happen in a soldiers life that  just throws them for a loop and the Sgt, or Platoon leader is not traine dhow to deal with it, or  really shoud not deal with it.  Divorce notices, death in the family, nightmares after or during a tour, the simple things like helping  an army family  thru a bad time. Not to metion a simple thing like a church service in the field to bring comfort to the soul. 

Sometimes the Leadership become aware of problems with troops under their command and not too sure how to deal with so they  thurn to the padre who can go look and talk to the soldier and it does not become offical red mark on the troops file. 

When I was on class b call out at base Toronto, I got a phone call from home telling me my one of my close friends had taken her life. My Sgt who was not sure what  do , made the arrangments for me to go talk to the Padre that day to put my mind at ease about it.  That sort of thing is what  the padre provides. It is a simple caring voice that  does not judge, does take away career thoughts nor are they in the chain of command.  

They have an important role to fill in the CF,  in peace keeping missions they might be the one to talk after you see something really bad that  bothers you,  or after you get a letter from home and your family is all upset because you missed the first steps of your child, or your wife wants to divorce you because your never home.  It could be something joyful in your life, you want to get married and want to do it on base in front of your CF friends.  The reason to see the padre is because you want to not because tou need to.

The purple chain of command is very different from any other chain of command but they are still in the army  and still follow the rules as much as they can.

I remember a quote, Praise God and pass the ammo, said by  a padre during Pearl Harbor,  I think that is what  a padre is , praises God so the troops are not alone, and pitches in when needed.


----------



## Rifleman62

The following is the story of Padre Horton's experiences at D Day. He was a most beloved and respected Padre of The Royal Winnipeg Rifles. The unit took 480 casulties in 48 hours, 6-8 Jun 44, (three Rifle Coys were over run). More than 100 Rifles, and soldiers from other units were subsequently murdered by SS Gen Kurt Meyer troops. Padre Horton recently died.This may answer some questions on the role of Padres. 


D DAY EXPERIENCES
BY PADRE ED HORTON

My first recollection of our immediate D Day preparations is standing in a field near Southampton getting rid of all the means of recognition - regimental badges and shoulder flashes etc.

Later we proceeded to embark.  It was Friday, June 2.  Our ship was a fine liner called the LLangiby Castle. Our accommodations were good.  We had our meals in the Dining Saloon with tables covered with linen cloths and the ship's stewards serving us.

One of those with whom I shared a cabin was a young lieutenant of a British Reece Unit.  He had dreams of driving through to Berlin on D + 1.  I often wondered what happened to him.  There was also a naval lieutenant sharing our cabin.  He was in charge of the navy lads who manned our landing craft.

According to regular procedure there was an officer called "Officer Commanding Troops" (O.C.Troops).  In our case it was a full colonel of the Welsh Guards.  He was a typical regular army officer with monocle and all.  He had held the same position on ships in earlier landings.

We anchored out in the stream and it was a bit rough.  My amusing picture of this officer was one in which he was climbing up over the side with the spray splashing over him and his monocle firmly fixed in front of his eye.

When I began to plan a church service for the troops he took a very keen and definite interest in all the details.  He told me the hymns I should have, among other instructions about the service.  When the time came we had a good service on deck with a full attendance.  I have a picture of this service.

There were strict rules about smoking.  A glowing cigarette and could be seen a great distance away.  Touring the ship one evening out O.C.Troops found some sailors smoking on deck.  This was definitely against orders.  Instead of ordering a non-commissioned officer of the navy to charge them he did it himself and had the sailors put in the brig.  The naval officer in charge of these lads who were manning our landing craft was furious.  To think that an army officer of the rank of colonel should put sailors in the brig on a ship!  Such a situation was outrageous, Queens Regulations were studied minutely.  It was a sticky situation for the sailors, as part of the landing force, were technically under command of the O.C. Troops; but they were on a ship.  It was finally settled by sentencing the guilty sailors to the time they had spent in the brig before the matter was settled.  The dignity and prerogative of all parties was satisfied.

We were to have landed on the Monday, June 5, but it was too rough.  We did not know where we were to land until the evening of June 5.  Whether we would land June 6 or not was uncertain until the last minute.  I have often though of General Eisenhower having to make the extremely difficult decision as to whether we should go in on the Tuesday.  I understand that if we hadn't gone in that day the landing would have had to be put off for a month owing to the tides.  I have read of the difficulties of making this decision and the advice he sought, but in the end he had to make the momentous decision alone.

The day of the landing dawned bright and clear.  There was a strong wind and the sea was fairly rough.  We embarked in our landing craft which were on davits at the side of the ship like lifeboats.  They were much the size of lifeboats.  We were lowered into the sea and away we went for the shore.  What a magnificent sight - ships of all sorts and sizes, planes overhead.  As far as the eye could see the amazing armada moved towards the French coast.  I wonder how many of us realized the significance of this decisive moment in the world's history.  Our men were calm.  There was no evidence of tension or fear.  A few were seasick, and we splashed by the spray.  Our particular landing was uneventful.  We jumped in up it our knees and waded ashore.  As we crossed the beach they began to fire at us.  I was in the second wave.  As we moved along it became evident to me that the white armband with a red cross on it, which was on my arm, was making me an easy mark, so I took it off.  I soon came upon one of our lads who I knew well laying on the beach badly wounded. We had been ordered not to stop to help the wounded as it would delay us too much. Others would follow whose duty it would be to care for the wounded.  I couldn't help but stop for a few moments and give him what comfort I could.  Later he died.  I wrote to his wife and received a very lovely latter in answer to mine.

Once we had gone off the beach and among the houses and stone walls and trees we seemed fairly safe and we moved inland.  The first night was uneventful as far as I was concerned.

About the third day we got into real trouble.  We were almost surrounded by Hitler Jegend Division.  In the night three of our companies were almost wiped out.  The Canadian Scottish put in a counter attack the next day.  Because of the rough sea they had not been able to land all the support units, and we expected the worst.  However it never came.  Later when I was in the Occupation Force I was told a British Intelligence Officer told a group that the attack never came because the S.S. Troops were at loggerheads with the Wehrmacht, who would not give them the gas they needed to put in the attack.

In a few days tings settled down a bit.  The men were manning the slit trenches and on guard.  They were tired and soon fell asleep.  To fall asleep in the face of the enemy was a serious offence.  I was called up to see a young lad in a slit trench who wanted to see me.  He told me he had fallen asleep and had been charged.  He said the commanding officer had told him he would be shot for this offence.  He said, "I am only 16. I am too young to be shot".  I told him I was sure the commanding officer had not said he would be shot.  What he had likely said was that he could be shot; but he insisted, so I said I would talk to the C.O. about him.  It turned out as I had suggested.  The C.O. had only said he could be shot.  However when I informed the C.O. that he was only 16 years old the C.O. said they would have to do something about that.  Within 24 hours he was taken out of the line and sent back to England.
     
I had been busy burying the men who had been killed.  My batman, Seager, was a great help to me in gathering the dead and digging the graves.  We had no equipment except shovels.  Our instructions were to find suitable places for burial and report the map references.  We were to bury as many together as we could.  We had no supply of crosses.  These came later when we got our jeep.  They supplied us with white wooden crosses then.  In the meantime Seager and I made the best rough crosses we could out of whatever wood we could find.

One day I was told a young soldier wanted to see me in one of the front line slit trenches.  I went up to see him and found him very angry with me.  He said I buried his Jewish pal and put a cross over his grave.  He was a Jew, too, and he said this was the most insulting thing I could have done to his friend.  I told him I was sorry.  There was no intention of insulting his dead comrade.  It was really more of a marker than a religious symbol, and I asked him what he thought I should have done.  He said I should have placed a Star of David over his grave.  I told him I had no way of making Stars of David.  If he objected to a cross the only thing I could do was place a straight stick over the grave.  He said that would be better than a cross.  Within a couple of days I was called on to bury this poor lad.  I saw to it that he did not have a cross, but a straight stick.

As Padres we were provided with an Order of Burial Service for Protestants, Roman Catholics and Jews.  If we could get a Padre whose religious affiliation was different to our own, but the same as the deceased we tried to have such a one perform the burial, but in the heat of battle this was not easy to do.  Then we used the Service prescribed for the religious affiliation of the person we were burying.  I never met a Jewish Padre until I was in the Army of Occupation in Germany.  The rule was that should be a Padre for every 1000 members of a Christian Protestant denomination and one for every 500 Roman Catholics.

One of the sad duties of the Padre was to wander over the battle area after the battle had moved on and search for the dead.  In those early days battles were fought through the Normandy grain fields.  Many a lad I found lying in a grain field.  After a day of this sad activity the boys would come up to me and ask if I had found any trace of their brother, or cousin or special pal.  After thorough searching if no trace of a particular fellow was found we presumed he had been taken prisoner.

In our regiment were 3 brothers.  Two were often seen together, but the third seemed to be a lone wolf.  I rarely saw him with either of his brothers.  He and one brother were missing.  The remaining brother met me every time I returned from a search.  Then as I wandered through the grain fields I came upon these two brothers, together.  They were in a crawling position and must have been killed together instantly.  It was a comfort to me to find the lone wolf brother not separated from one brother in death.

One day some of our stretcher bearers were shot at when picking up wounded and carrying them on stretchers to the Regimental Aid Post.  Our boys were very angry and swore what they would do to the next prisoner they captured.  A while later a prisoner was brought in and I wondered what would happen.  He was wounded:  I watched as one of our boys gave him a cigarette and lit it for him.  When it came to individual personal contacts it was hard to carry out threats made in anger, and justified anger, against the enemy in general.

As the Padre I considered the regiment my congregation, and it was my duty and privilege to minister to them in whatever way I found open to me, no matter who they were or what kind of people they were.  They were all God's children and He loved them:  I always felt I should be with them to share whatever they had to put up with.  One thing I found I could do was take them the mail to them wherever they were.  I could always find a way to get to them where they were, and mail from home meant a very great deal to them.  It was a great morale builder.  The authorities were very good about getting the mail up front.

I always travelled with the Regimental Aid Post.  There I could try to comfort the wounded as they were brought in and do any little errands etc. they would like done.  I was provided with a jeep equipped with a frame so that I could carry three stretchers.  At times I had the privilege of going out and bringing in the wounded.

During our years in England I never favoured regular church parades.  There were official and special occasions when they were in order, but ordinarily I felt it was much better to have voluntary services.  Our Commanding Officer supported me in this.  The result was that attendances at services were not large.  Very few attended Communion Services.  We were supplied with a Communion Set which I had with me always.  The first opportunity I had to hold a service after we landed was when we had a short rest.  I arranged a service in the open under the trees.  All the boys were there.  After the first part of the service I announced a Communion Service.  I turned to prepare for it.  Not a man moved.  I thought they had not understood, so I announced it a second time.  Still no movement.  Then I realized they all wanted to take communion.

One of the very difficult tasks of the Padre was writing to the next of kin of those who were killed.  When the regiment went into a rest period I found myself very busy trying to catch up with this correspondence.  I tried to tell those poor fathers and mothers and wives what I could that might give them comfort.

I believe our Canadian boys were the best soldiers of all.  They were brave, they were cheerful, they were honest, they were resourceful, they were loyal, and they were sensitive.  Their attitude when they attended a grave side service always impressed me.  They were sad, but they were realistic.  They presented a noble bearing.

During those early days and on through the whole campaign the lieutenants suffered the worst casualties in proportion to their numbers.  One day they brought the body of a young lieutenant in.  They said he had gone into his last action saying "It will be my turn this time".  Most of his fellow officers had already been killed or wounded.  An attitude of fatalism was not hard to develop.  Sometimes there was evidence of senses of religious favouritism.  Once when we were moving up two or three fellows argued mildly about who should march beside me.  They thought it would be a favoured, and possibly safe, spot because God would give me special protection!  As a matter of fact God does not play favourites.  I did hear once, that for their number Padres suffered higher casualties than any other unit.  I don't know whether that is true.

A while before D.Day the Padres of the 3rd. Division were sent to a day's course on finger-printing. We received some good natured kidding about that, but it was worthwhile.  The theory was that if we found bodies that could not be identified we could take the finger prints and thus prove their identity.  Due to the number of reinforcements coming into our regiments, and the way they were scattered in action we could not know them all.  When we were on the Schete we three Protestant Padres of the 7th. Brigade found a body we could not identify.  We took his fingerprints with the equipment we had been given and sent it in.  Later we were commended for the job we had done and told they were able to identify the man.  His identifications had been burned.  Knowing how next-of-kin suffer when all the news they ever have is: "Missing, believed killed" we felt it was a worthwhile idea that proved its value.  Later when in the Occupation Force in Germany I had occasion to use my fingerprinting equipment again when a man was drowned, and had no identification.


----------



## S McKee

Excellent article!


----------



## S McKee

Evangelical influence spurs clashes among military chaplains
Washington Post, via SFGate.com, USA
Sep. 4, 2005 
Alan Cooperman
sfgate.com 
"¢ More news articles on Christianity

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ReligionNewsBlog.com "¢ Item 12152 "¢ Posted: 2005-09-05 18:53:25 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington -- The growing influence of evangelical Protestants is roiling the military chaplain corps, where their desire to preach their faith more openly is colliding with long-held military traditions of pluralism and diversity.

After accusations this summer that evangelical chaplains, faculty and coaches were pressuring cadets at the Air Force Academy, the Air Force last week issued new guidelines on respect for religious minorities. In the Navy, evangelical Protestant chaplains are fighting what they say is a legacy of discrimination in hiring and promotions, and they are bridling at suggestions they not pray publicly "in the name of Jesus."

Much of the conflict is in two areas that, until now, have been nearly invisible to civilians: how the military hires its ministers and how they word their public prayers. Evangelical chaplains -- who are rising in numbers and clout amid a decline in Catholic priests and mainline Protestant ministers -- are challenging the status quo on both questions, causing even some evangelical commanders to worry about the impact on morale.

"There is a polarization that is beginning to set up that I don't think is helpful. Us versus them," said Air Force Col. Richard Hum, an Evangelical Free Church minister who is the executive director of the Armed Forces Chaplains Board. "I don't know whether it's an overflow of what's happening in society. But this sort of thing is so detrimental to what we are trying to do in the chaplaincy."

The Rev. MeLinda Morton, a Lutheran minister who resigned in June as an Air Force chaplain after criticizing the religious atmosphere at the Air Force Academy, said there has been a palpable rise in evangelical fervor, not just among chaplains but also among the officer corps in general, since she joined the military in 1982, originally as a launch officer in a nuclear missile silo.

"When we were cone-heads -- missile officers -- I would never, ever have engaged in conversations with subordinates aligning my power and position as an officer with my views on faith matters," she said. Today, "I've heard of people being made incredibly uncomfortable by certain wing commanders who engage in sectarian devotions at staff meetings."

The tradition of chaplains in the U.S. military goes back to George Washington, who first sought a minister for his Virginia regiment in 1756. In the early days of the republic, commanders simply chose a chaplain who shared their beliefs. But with the expansion of the military in World War II, the armed services set quotas for chaplains of various faiths, attempting to match the proportion of each denomination in the general population.

In a class-action lawsuit -- filed in 1999 in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia and still in the discovery, or evidence-gathering, stage -- more than 50 Navy chaplains contend that the formula became a rigid and discriminatory "thirds rule": one-third Catholics, one-third mainline Protestants and one-third everybody else.

According to Hum, the military abandoned numerical targets about 20 years ago, partly for legal reasons and partly because the proliferation of religious groups made the system unworkable. Although chaplains are paid by the armed services, they must be ordained and "endorsed," or nominated, by religious organizations.

Like college admissions officers, Pentagon officials now say they seek diversity without using quotas.

"We don't actually say we want to have four rabbis this year, or 20 Catholic priests. What we do is, we look at who is sent to us by our endorsers throughout the country and ... then we bring the best qualified into the chaplain corps," Rear Adm. Louis Iasiello, a Catholic priest and the chief of Navy chaplains, said in an interview at the Pentagon's Navy Annex.

Pentagon data analyzed by the Washington Post show a substantial rise in the number of evangelical chaplains in the past decade, along with a modest decline in mainline Protestant ministers and a precipitous drop in Catholic priests, mirroring a nationwide priest shortage.

Of the approximately 1.4 million people on active duty in the military, 21.5 percent list their religion as Roman Catholic. But of the 2,860 active- duty chaplains, 355 -- or 12.4 percent -- are Catholic priests.

By far the largest single provider of chaplains to the military is now the Southern Baptist Convention, with 451 chaplains, one for every 40 service members who list their denomination as Southern Baptist.

Although the military has had growing difficulty recruiting ministers from mainline Protestant seminaries, many evangelical denominations place a high priority on supplying chaplains to the military. The Church of God in Christ, for example, has 109 active-duty chaplains. The Full Gospel churches have 61, the Church of the Nazarene has 68, and the Cleveland, Tenn.-based Churches of God have 58.

The chief endorser of chaplains for the National Association of Evangelicals said he believes that the bias against evangelicals, though once real, is gone.

"When you look at the Navy today, you see evangelicals at the top of the hierarchy," said retired Col. Stephen Leonard, a former Army chaplain. He points to the deputy chief of Navy chaplains, Rear Adm. Robert Burt, who belongs to the Open Bible Standard Church, and to the previous chief of Navy chaplains, the Rev. Barry Black, a Seventh-day Adventist who became chaplain of the Senate after retiring from the Navy.

"There probably were chaplains that didn't get selected (for promotion) that probably should have been selected. But we're past that now. Let bygones be bygones," Leonard said.

With the growth in evangelicals, heated disputes are occurring over public prayers.

Iasiello said chaplains are free to preach however they wish in their base chapels or at sectarian worship services. But when they have a multifaith audience at staff meetings, change-of-command ceremonies, ship commissionings and other public events, they are encouraged to offer more generic, inclusive prayers, he said.

"We train our people to be sensitive to the needs of all of God's people. We don't direct how a person's going to pray. Because everyone's own denomination or faith group has certain directives or certain ways of doing things, and we would never -- it's that whole separation-of-church-and-state thing -- we would never want to direct institutionally that a person could or couldn't do something," Iasiello said.

But the model of chaplaincy advocated by older chaplains such as Iasiello, which hinges on self-restraint, is increasingly under challenge by younger ones, such as Lt. Gordon Klingenschmitt, 37.

Three years ago, Klingenschmitt left the Air Force, where he had been a missile officer for 11 years, and joined the Navy as a chaplain. He took a demotion and a pay cut to make the switch. But he was joyful.

"I had been serving my country," he said. "I wanted to serve God."

It was not long, however, before disillusionment set in. At the Navy Chaplains School in Newport, R.I., a senior military minister gave Klingenschmitt and other new chaplains a lesson in how to offer prayers in public settings. Classmates who prayed to a generic "God" or "Almighty" won praise. Those who prayed "in the name of Jesus" were counseled to be more sensitive, according to Klingenschmitt.

As a minister from a small evangelical denomination, the Evangelical Episcopal Church, Klingenschmitt bristled at those instructions. He wrote a paper citing a Pentagon regulation that "chaplains shall be permitted to conduct public worship according to the manner and forms of the church of which they are members."

Aboard the USS Anzio, his first post, he backed a Jewish sailor's request to receive kosher meals and tried to get permission for a Muslim crewman to take a turn offering the nightly benediction over the ship's public address system. But Klingenschmitt also insisted on his own right to preach what he believes as a born-again Christian.

In July 2004, he was reprimanded for a sermon at the memorial service of a sailor who died in a motorcycle accident. In the sermon, he said, he emphasized that the sailor was certainly in heaven and "mentioned in passing" that, according to John 3:36, those who do not accept Jesus are doomed for eternity.

"My sermon was in the base chapel, it was optional attendance, and it was by invitation. If we can't quote certain scriptures in the base chapel when people are invited to church, where can we quote them?" he said. "Don't paint me as a person who's going around forcing my faith on people. I've never done that."

In March, Klingenschmitt's commander recommended against extending his tour in the Navy, writing that he has "demonstrated recurring confusion concerning a chaplain's role within a military organization."

Klingenschmitt has accused the Navy of religious discrimination, contending in a written complaint to his superiors that he was punished because he refused to practice a "government-sanitized" faith that he calls "pluralism, with a capital P."

Navy officials declined to discuss Klingenschmitt's case. But they noted that the National Conference on Ministry to the Armed Forces, a private association to which most chaplains belong, says in its code of ethics that each chaplain must "function in a pluralistic environment" and "not proselytize from other religious bodies," though they "retain the right to evangelize those who are not affiliated."

Whether there should be any tacit limits on chaplains' free speech has also been an issue at the Air Force Academy. A team of observers from Yale Divinity School criticized one of the academy's ministers for urging Protestant cadets to tell their classmates that anyone who is "not born-again will burn in the fires of hell."

"Could there possibly be a worse time for this fundamentalist Christianity to be pushed in our military, when we're in a war and the people we are fighting are recruiting their members by saying we're Christian crusaders?" asked Mikey Weinstein, a 1977 Air Force Academy graduate and former Reagan White House official.

His complaints over the past 18 months about religious intolerance led to a Pentagon investigation in June that found "a lack of awareness over where the line is drawn between permissible and impermissible expression of beliefs."

Among other incidents, the academy commandant had urged cadets to use the "J for Jesus" hand signal with the thumb and index finger, the head football coach had told players that he expected to see them in church, and Jewish cadets had experienced anti-Semitic slurs after students were urged to see the Mel Gibson film "The Passion of the Christ."

Lt. Gen. Roger Brady, the Air Force's deputy chief of staff for personnel, assured a June 26 congressional hearing that "the clergy pretty much have the political correctness thing down" and that "most of the complaints are with cadets and cadet-led prayers."


----------



## 1feral1

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Knew a MAJ Padre from Saskatchewan. Basil Chomos is his name. The most approachable man I ever met. Popular with the troops, and a very warm and caring bloke, who had a natural calmness about him, yet to look at him you‘d never in a 1000 yrs think he was an RC Padre.
> 
> Back in Aug 95, he was thru Australia, and stayed a few days at my place. It was sure good to catch up with him.
> 
> Hey Basil, if you read this, ‘good on ya‘.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes



Well to my suprise, I had a call yesterday that Basil was indeed in Australia for the next while. I knew he was coming out. We met up this afternoon at our house. I gave him a brief tour of the island, and later some wine and some great steaks were consumed before he moved on back to Brisbane for more fun in the sun.

I have known him for years, and it was truly a most excellent time catching up with him today. Currently he is the RCMP Padre in the Yorkton area of Saskactchewan.

Here is a pic of him at the beach near Woorim here on Bribie Island (thats the Coral Sea lapping at his feet, and a bunker from WW2 in the background). Todays METREP was again over 30C, partially cloudy and humid. Not a bad summer's day by far!

Next is a pic of him and I taken not even 30 minutes ago by the pool.

I wish he could have stayed longer.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## 3rd Herd

No matter where we were, no matter what the weather, an individual would be seen trudging through the mud, rain snow. Our unit padre, not so much to preach out of the good book but to check on the spirits of the troops. I often wondered wether he slept at all. During a major ex the CO was going to be in place for awhile I was loaned to the padre as his driver. Never in my whole time did I go through as much POL as I did ensuring the padre's appointed rounds were met. It was also enjoyable to have him share the 20:00 to 08:00 radio watch. Not much conversation on religion but a host of other topics were discussed in the battle to stay awake while watching the little orange light.


----------



## Zer02005

I'm looking into becoming a chaplin sooner or later.Right now I'm only 18 and I haven't selected any courses yet for Uni. I'm not fully understanding all the degrees that I'm gonna need to qualify.I really want to get at least my BA in psycology but I read that I'm gonna need a masters in theological something or other.So I was just wondering if a chaplin could browse through and tell me what you studied and all you needed to join.


----------



## dapaterson

To be a chaplin, you require a black bowler hat, a cane, and a little moustache.

On the other hand, Chaplains must be ordained ministers/priests/equivalent for enrolment.  Check out the CF recruiting website for details; alternatively, go to your local base and chat with the padre.


----------



## Neill McKay

Zer02005 said:
			
		

> I'm looking into becoming a chaplin sooner or later.Right now I'm only 18 and I haven't selected any courses yet for Uni. I'm not fully understanding all the degrees that I'm gonna need to qualify.I really want to get at least my BA in psycology but I read that I'm gonna need a masters in theological something or other.So I was just wondering if a chaplin could browse through and tell me what you studied and all you needed to join.



I'm not a chaplain (or a recruiter) so this is outside of the core of my expertise, but my understanding is that you have to be an ordained clergyman first, then you apply to be a chaplain.  More here:  http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=61&bhcp=1

There are at least a couple of chaplains who are members here; maybe one of them will be along with better information.


----------



## Trinity

Requirements for chaplain

Bachelor of Arts (not sure if its a 3 or 4 year degree)
Masters of Divinity (3 year course)
to be given permission from your civilian diocese to perform military ministry
2 years civilian ministry after ordination 
Pass a selection board by the ICCMC (visit the Chaplains website at forces.gc.ca for more info)


This is a basic idea of the journey for most denominations.  There is a slight modification
for Roman Catholic Pastoral Associates who are not ordained (thus, do not need to be ordained)
but still need 2  years civilian ministry.  

Do not quote this as law... it's a best estimate from someone who is of that trade.  


Edit..  psychology degree is a great idea.  If you do a religious studies degree... you'll only
revisit much of the same material in your M.Div... might bore you to death.


----------



## Yrys

Trinity said:
			
		

> Masters of Divinity (3 year course)



That sounds ... strange!


----------



## Aerobicrunner

Ref:  Canadian Forces Chaplain Branch Manual (A-CG-001-000/JD-000)  http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/Chapgen/docs/word/Branch_manual_e.doc


PART 1

CHAPLAINS – ENDORSEMENT AND RECRUITING PROCESS REGULAR FORCE
GENERAL
1.		A candidate who wishes to enrol in the Canadian Forces as a chaplain must undergo an endorsement and selection process by the Interfaith Committee on Canadian Military Chaplaincy (ICCMC) and the Chaplain Branch. 
2.		The Director of Chaplaincy Administration, Education and Training (DCAET) is responsible for co-ordinating advertisements for the enrolment of chaplains.
3.		DCAET is the Branch OPI for recruiting. The chaplains tasked by the Chaplain General to be responsible for recruiting in the various regions of Canada will be the primary point of contact for all candidates. These chaplains will interview the candidates and ensure they have all the appropriate forms. Suitability for ecumenical team ministry will begin to be discerned at this time. They will monitor the candidate’s progress through the endorsement and recruiting process until they are enrolled.
ICCMC ENDORSEMENT
4.		A candidate must have completed an academic program as described in the academic profile adopted by the ICCMC, 24 April 2001. Chaplains, like all other specialist officers, are expected to possess a high degree of expertise in their field. The demands and expectations placed on chaplains require that applicants must have proven themselves capable in a number of ministry areas – some of which may be at a higher level or have a different focus than that required to be recognized as spiritual leaders by their own faith communities. Although some professional development will be part of one’s career progression, much of this expertise must be achieved prior to the chaplain receiving an endorsement from the ICCMC.
5.		The Bachelor of Theology and a Masters degree in Pastoral Theology are generally normative for applicants educated in Quebec. For all other applicants, the Bachelor of Arts degree and Masters of Divinity degree remain generally normative. The ICCMC recognizes that the newly established requirements are normally available through either of those degree programmes; however, they also recognize that these degree programmes do not always meet, nor are the exclusive means by which one can meet the established requirements. 
6.		Applicants for Canadian Forces Chaplain will normally have attained appropriate educational background through both pre-seminary and seminary training. No term is inclusive of all possible educational paths. Pre-seminary training is deemed to include that which would be accomplished at an under-graduate University, CEGEP or similar programme. Seminary is deemed inclusive of theological schools or other institutions of higher learning primarily aimed at preparing personnel for full-time ministry within their respective faith community. 
7.		All study must be in institutions accredited by the Association of Colleges and Universities in Canada (AUCC) and/or the Department of Education in the Province of Quebec, and/or the Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada (ATS). 
8.		In the pre-seminary experience applicants are expected to have attained expertise in three areas:
NOTE
The bolded subjects are required within the standard.
a.	Foundational thought, which includes Philosophy, History, Literature, Psychology, Language, Classics, Art, Music, Natural Sciences, and Logic;

b.	Human and social sciences, which includes Sociology, Cultural Studies, Canadian Studies, Political Science, Art History, Music, International Studies; and
c.	Communication, which includes oral and written communication and computer literacy.
9.		Expertise would be demonstrated through the applicant achieving a minimum of a C+ average while completing a total of no less than 60 units at this level, a maximum of 15 of which could be in area (c). 
10.		In the seminary experience applicants are expected to have attained expertise in four areas:
NOTE
The bolded subjects are required within the standard.
d.	Theological foundation, which includes Church History, Scriptural Studies, Systematics, Moral Theology and Ethics;
e.	Cultural studies, which includes Missiology, Moral Values, Global Culture, Ecumenics, and Social context;
f.	Ministry, which includes Public Leadership, Homiletics, Youth and Adult Education, Liturgics, Pastoral Care, Counselling, Supervised Ministry Experience (Field Education Practicum), and Supervised Pastoral Education (SPE/CPE); and
g.	Personal spiritual formation, which should be experienced as an integral part of the community life, centered on ministry formation and may be evident in such courses as spiritual direction, personal and professional ethics and personal formation.
11.		Expertise in the first three parts would be demonstrated through the applicant achieving a minimum of a C+ average while completing a total of no less than 90 units at the theological school or seminary level. Expertise in the fourth area would normally be evident through letters of reference and the recognition by one’s faith community as a spiritual leader within that community. 
12.		All applicants for chaplaincy shall submit to the ICCMC, with their application, a detailed report of their educational achievements. These documents, normally transcripts from both their pre-seminary and seminary, will be evaluated against the established requirements. Any applicant whose documentation does not clearly meet the established requirements, will be afforded the opportunity to have the documentation submitted to an educational institution recognized by the ICCMC to have a formal assessment of equivalency. In those cases, the application would proceed only upon the completion of that assessment stating that the applicant has achieved the necessary equivalency to the established requirements.  
13.		A candidate must be ordained or mandated by their faith group.
14.		A candidate must have a minimum of two years fulltime experience in ordained or mandated ministry with their faith group.
DOCUMENTS REQUIRED FOR ENROLMENT
15.		Applications forms, other required documentation and full academic transcripts of all post secondary education will be forwarded directly to the Staff Officer (SO) of the ICCMC by the candidate. All letters of reference will be sent directly to the SO of the ICCMC by the originator. The following can be used as a checklist for documents required for endorsement.
h.	Post-Secondary Education Transcripts;
i.	Letter of Pastoral Experience;

j.	Letter of Permission/Good Standing from Faith Group Authority;
k.	Letters of Reference (4);
l.	Baptismal Certificate (Roman Catholic);
m.	Application form; and
n.	Personal Reference Form.
16.		The SO of the ICCMC will present the files of the prospective candidate to the appropriate representative on the ICCMC, for approval or lack thereof. If approved, the file will be presented to the ICCMC for endorsement. Once the candidate is endorsed the file will be forwarded to the Office of the Chaplain General, Attention: DCAET. 
17.		Chaplains seeking to change components or to transfer from one Reserve Force Unit to another must be re-endorsed by the ICCMC. Full documentation as outlined above may not be required by the ICCMC.
CHAPLAIN BRANCH SELECTION PROCESS
18.		A Selection Board will be convened to assess all candidates. The Board will be comprised of chaplains from the Strategic Council and others as named by DCAET, as well as one or more other officers from a non-chaplain MOC.
19.	 	Successful candidates will be recommended for enrolment to the Chaplain General.
20.		The Chaplain General recommends to the appropriate military authority selected candidates for recruitment.
21.		Candidates must meet the officer standard for enrolment to the Canadian Forces and pass Chaplain Basic Officer Training to be gainfully employed within the CF.


----------



## Zer02005

I'm not real sure of all the big guys up there(religous ranks) but I'm a baptist and I'm pretty sure we don't have diocis'(not good at spelling that)


----------



## Trinity

Zer02005 said:
			
		

> I'm not real sure of all the big guys up there(religous ranks) but I'm a baptist and I'm pretty sure we don't have diocis'(not good at spelling that)



Your answer



> j.   Letter of Permission/Good Standing from Faith Group Authority;



Mine would be my diocese.  Yours would be whatever authority gives you permission to act in 
your role as pastor.


----------



## Aerobicrunner

Ref:  Religions in Canada.  Directorate of Military Gender Integration and Employment Equity (DMGIEE).  National Defence Publication. 
        Catalogue No: D2-147/2003 ISBN 0-662-67193-7 Ottawa, Canada.  March 2003.

Page 9 of ref provides fol information and contacts regarding your faith: 

Website of the Canadian Baptist Ministries - http://www.cbmin.org

or contact by mail at

Canadian Baptist Ministries
7185 Millcreek Drive
Mississauga, ON  L5N 5R4
Phone: (905) 821-3533


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

The short answer is that your qualifications (whatever they may be) have to be "endorsed" by the CF Chaplain General in order to get through the recruiting process ... talk to them to determine the specific requirements for your faith/religion (ref. Trinity's comment below):  1-866-502-2203 ... more info here: http://www.dnd.ca/chapgen/engraph/recruiting1_e.asp?cat=5


----------



## norris

Can anyone share their experiences ...  I'm not a young guy, not old either, but if somone can enlighten me about their experiences, I'd be thankful.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Slight correction, Chaplains do a specialized BMOQ course called the Chaplain’s Basic Officer Training Course (Ch BOTC) conducted during the fall at the Canadian Forces Chaplain School and Center (CFChSC) in Borden, Ontario.


----------



## norris

Thanks for the clarification.  Anyone know anything about the course, especially how it differs from the regular BMQ


----------



## Nfld Sapper

norris said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification.  Anyone know anything about the course, especially how it differs from the regular BMQ



Well from the Recruiting site:

Phase I. Basic Officer Training

Upon selection into the Chaplaincy, you will enrol in the Canadian Forces and be commissioned as a Captain/Lieutenant (N). Candidates must complete the Chaplain's Basic Officer Training Course (Ch BOTC) conducted during the fall at the Canadian Forces Chaplain School and Center (CFChSC) in Borden, Ontario. The Ch BOTC is offered in either English or French. During these thirteen weeks of training, you will become familiar with life in the Canadian Forces and the Chaplaincy. You will learn basic leadership skills, military regulations and customs and you will acquire the fundamental military skills of drill, dress and deportment as well as training in crisis counseling, ministering to casualties of critical incidents, and first aid. You will also participate in physical training and sports programs. Successful completion is a prerequisite for continued employment and further training.


And since you are bound to ask about further training,

Phase II. Professional Training

The mandatory training in this phase includes Peacekeeping and Humanitarian Operations, Suicide Interventions and language training. Successful completion of all courses, including the Chaplain's intermediate course, is necessary for promotion to Major/Lieutenant Commander (N) and is a pre-requisite for senior leadership within the chaplaincy.

Team Building, 1 week, Conducted by CFChSC

Ethics, 2 weeks, Conducted by CFChSC

Suicide Intervention, 3 to 5 days, Out-service training offered through Medical Branch

Intermediate Chaplain's course, 3 weeks, Conducted by CFChSC 

Peacekeeping, 8 days, Conducted by CFChSC. Required only by those seeking employment on Peacekeeping Missions


----------



## xena

We had a Chaplain at our unit who was loaded on one of these courses.  Really great guy.  When the message came through the OR, I mentioned that I might try to volunteer to be an instructor on the course (I was a brand new MCpl fresh out of JLC in Wainwright).

Upon his face came a complete countenance of unmitigated horror.  He repeated "Please don't" over and over again.

I dare say I might have frightened the ol' chap.   >  I wonder why?    >

PS - I knew I had a snowball's chance in an unpleasant place of being an instructor on that type of course, but he apparently didn't.   ;D


----------



## Armynewsguy

If you want a bit of insight to the Padre world Army News has done quite a few stories on Padres.

http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?FlashEnabled=1&id=2120
http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=2565
http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1687
http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=2738
http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=2317


There you go.

Armynewsguy


----------



## Adrian_888

Hello, was hoping someone could help me clarify this document on the requirements for chaplain in the CF.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/cfcb-bsafc/ps/rec/crb-bra/index-eng.asp

I am confused on the requirement of 'masters in Divinity' and want to know if this applies to all religions, or only christian clergy? On a similar note I am not even sure if the CF accepts none-christian priests.

Hopefully this finds someone with the knowledge to answer this question, and It would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
-Adrian


----------



## captloadie

It actually says :
■_Must have a Master of Divinity preparing for ministry or equivalent 
•The Master of Divinity is a university degree accredited by a Province or Territory of Canada and recognized by the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada
•The Faith Group is the final authority setting the minimum standards for pastoral ministry in its religious jurisdiction
•For candidates of Academic institutions from outside Canada, a recognized Canadian University determined by the ICCMC must conduct a prior learning assessment_

That's pretty clear. If you believe your religious training is an equivalent to the Master of Divinity, the submission will go to the Faith Group for a decision.

The CF Chaplaincy Branch accepts all faiths and denominations, and is currently encouraging non christian members to apply to meet the growing religious diversity of the CF.


----------



## IBM

Sorry if I'm sidetracking the topic here, but does anyone know if we have any Muslim imams serving as CF chaplains? Just asking out of personal curiosity.


----------



## PuckChaser

IBM said:
			
		

> Sorry if I'm sidetracking the topic here, but does anyone know if we have any Muslim imams serving as CF chaplains? Just asking out of personal curiosity.



There's (presumably) one Muslim Chaplain in the Reg F, and one in BMOQ system (as of 2009) from what I could google.

Here's the news article for the first Imam in the CF: CTV News


----------



## AbdullahD

Hey Guys, just doing some digging tonight and have been stumped.

I have found info on Chaplain careers and entry plans etc, but I can not find anything on Padres.

Were they rolled into the Chaplain career or are they new Chaplains? Or did I just miss something...

Found MarioMikes links regarding padres vs Chaplains, followed them and the Padre one turned up nothing. Searched it on the Canadian forces site and got 0 results... Any Padres or Chaplains on here or anyone able to illuminate for me?

Thank you
Abdullah


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Abdullah: Chaplain is the actual trade designation used in the CAF. Padre is the unofficial nickname by which we address them.

It's a bit like the ship's navigation officers who are referred to as the "pilot". You won't find "pilot" as a n official job description anywhere , but that's what we call them.


----------



## AbdullahD

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Abdullah: Chaplain is the actual trade designation used in the CAF. Padre is the unofficial nickname by which we address them.
> 
> It's a bit like the ship's navigation officers who are referred to as the "pilot". You won't find "pilot" as a n official job description anywhere , but that's what we call them.



Ah thanks mate, that clears that up


----------



## vonGarvin

"Padre" is Spanish for Father, which is the honorific given to Roman Catholic Priests (and some other priests, IIRC).

The accurate term is Chaplain (as stated just now by Oldgateboatdriver). 

I wish you all the best!


----------



## Lumber

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> It's a bit like the ship's navigation officers who are referred to as the "pilot". You won't find "pilot" as a n official job description anywhere , but that's what we call them.



Or "Gator", or "Navihater"...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Whatchya all need is a space marine chaplain.


----------



## AbdullahD

Technoviking said:
			
		

> "Padre" is Spanish for Father, which is the honorific given to Roman Catholic Priests (and some other priests, IIRC).
> 
> The accurate term is Chaplain (as stated just now by Oldgateboatdriver).
> 
> I wish you all the best!



Thanks, just playing with some ideas. The logistics of becoming a Muslim chaplain seems quite intimidating, but still not to to bad.

Playing with the idea of getting a BA over the next 5 years while I am working.. then when I "retire" to circumnavigate the world get a MDiv then possibly applying. Problem is I'm not sure of what schools to use for the degree programs.. the Islamic schools I would use are not accredited and getting 2 years experience would be mighty inconvenient.

So I asked about this hoping Padre was more of an NCM career choice. I already had plans to do some Islamic studies while I sailed the world, but now I am considering if it is worth the hassle to me.. or I may just continue my studies as I will and possibly get my Ijazah from an Islamic scholar and see if that is acceptable and if not I weigh my options then.

My cash flow will be such that I will be able to continue sailing the world if I so chose.. so Who knows I may just say screw it and depart from working for good lol good chance not though, I get bored quick and I enjoy challenges.. so this would give me multiple challenges in order to obtain. Gotta love the idea of a mid 40s career change haha

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]

My cash flow will be such that I will be able to continue sailing the world if I so chose.. so Who knows I may just say screw it and depart from working for good lol good chance not though, I get bored quick and I enjoy challenges.. so this would give me multiple challenges in order to obtain. Gotta love the idea of a mid 40s career change haha

Abdullah
[/quote]

What do you for a career now? If memory serves me you already had a career change recently didn't you? It's a daunting thing for sure.

And if you don't mind me asking, are you bringing your family along with you when you go off sailing the world?


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What do you for a career now? If memory serves me you already had a career change recently didn't you? It's a daunting thing for sure.
> 
> And if you don't mind me asking, are you bringing your family along with you when you go off sailing the world?



I'm railroading right now, been at it a couple years now.. but hating it with an undying passion Haha.. hence the restlessness. 

And of course! Huge part of why I want to do it, take the kids show them different countries, cultures and lifestyles. All the while getting some great experiences and skills to help them as adults.


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## Jarnhamar

Very cool!


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## kratz

[quote author=AbdullahD] Problem is I'm not sure of what schools to use for the degree programs.. the Islamic schools I would use are not accredited and getting 2 years experience would be mighty inconvenient.[/quote]

Chaplain is definitely an officer occupation and one of the few requiring a DEO entry scheme.
Through the CFRG and Chaplain school in Borden, there are contacts who you guide qualified, interested Chaplains through the recruiting process.

Bring your concerns about which qualifying Canadian Islamic program is suitable, if the goal is to increase numbers, they should be willing to provide the answers. If a particular school is not accredited, there very well be solid reasons for it. 

Sadly, I doubt the X number of years experience is something that can't be worked around with this occupation.  I have a friend applying as a Chaplain, from a non-traditional faith, and the recruiting system is seriously working with him to meet all the check boxes, but he has to meet the requirements as well.

As with many of these highly specific questions, it really is true, speaking with the CFRC and higher is your best option to gather accurate answers.

Good luck.


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## AbdullahD

Thanks Kratz, I am working with buddies of mine in regards to accredited Islamic schools in Canada to make sure no suitable option exists.

I have reached out to laurentian university as well and they do offer some good programs. That may work for me, so I may go this route and miss the Islamic focused studies and do general religious studies and do the Islamic studies on the side through friends who are qualified.

The years of experience, if needed, can be obtained if I choose this route. I have a very good friend who is a Mufti in Detroit who can probably arrange for me to gain the experience that is needed.. hopefully not in detroit though haha.

If I decide for sure this will be my route, I'll get all my boxes checked and when we are done cruising I'll apply. To be honest, I may have to reach out to a Padre just to talk.. in regards of job fulfillment and challenges etc. I've spent a lot of time thinking about career changes in the last few months here and I want to be sure I dont mess it up. Hence the boat.. want to go sailing before I apply to see if I do enjoy it... 

Any rate I'll stop my rambling haha thanks again for the input.

Abdullah


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