# Falling throught the cracks?



## 0007 (28 Apr 2006)

I don't know if it is just me, but my application for the D.E.O program has had some pretty lousy luck! I applied a few years ago and hit a snag the I had to take care of. Now, with that taken care of, I re-applied in November 2005 for the same program and was told that I should be in training come spring time. Six months later and I haven't heard a godamn thing from the recruiting centre other than the regular mantra "Someone should be phoning you in the next week or so" plus a different excuse on why it's taking so long ("Processing the recruits from military college, very busy....", "We have are inundated with applications right now..., or "The officer in charge of your file is on vacation...) I have heard at least a half-dozen horse-shit excuses now and am no closer to finding out what my situation is, until today that is!!!! I was told that I needed to sign a form giving consent for a criminal background check and a credit check. Of course, without trying to sound too incredulous or rude, I asked why this wasn't done from the get-go back in November and was told that maybe it expired as it is only good for 6 months! If this is the case, then why wasn't I given a modicum of respect and afforded a simple phone call to inform me? Better yet, why wasn't I told the 9 or 10 times I phoned in to get a status update on my file? No clear answer was given nor am I expected to get one I suppose, but I was challenged about my sincerity of joining the forces by the person with whom I spoke with. I suppose an applicant who has put four years of his life into joining the forces and plugging away at it is not really proving his salt! 
I guess my reason for this post is not just to bitch, and I believe I have earned the right, but I wanted to raise the question of why with all the big talk about bolstering recruits and speeding up the recruiting process, has nothing really changed? I realise that I am dealing with people, and human error is to be expected, but why is it that in an occupation like the Canadian Forces where truth and expediency is so vital - why is the first introduction to the forces at the recruiting center an entire gong-show of bullshit lies and feet-dragging? The motto of the RCR regiment comes to mind - "Never pass a fault", too bad it only applies to some!

(note to kincanucks: No I don't need the link to McDonald's, I am fairly certain I am interested in the infantry thanks! ;D )


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Apr 2006)

Perhaps the "snag" to which you refer was not as settled as you think?  Background checks can take a while, so get on it and then see where you are at.  I have to imagine that no one at the recruiting center is "lying" to you about anything.  Until you have been in, you will not realize the unfathomable amount of paperwork being an officer generates.  
Plus, you never know who else is applying.  Someone more qualified may have come up, and they may want to process them first.  Don't sweat it.  Looks like you will be in at some point.
Max flex.  You will hear that often.


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## Bograt (28 Apr 2006)

0007,

Hmmm, let me quickly review what you have shared. From what I have deducted, several years ago you were "counseled out". In the CF recruiting process we counsel people out for:
1. Drugs
2. Criminal/legal obligations
3. Suitability
4. Dependability
5. Work Ethic
6. CFAT

You have since re-applied, having met the time required dictated by your counsel out. You are applying to be an officer. In your application package there was a Document checklist which states you must include:
Employment application
TBS 330 Personnel Screening Consent form
SCT 330 60E Security Clearance From
2 Letters of Reference
High School  transcripts
Photocopy of Birth Certificate
University Transcripts
Photocopy of SIN

The first Consent form which you appeared to have not filled out, is included in the application package provided by CFRD. That is a show stopper.

Let me tell you what else are shop stoppers:
Suggesting that the members at CFRD are a "gong show of Bullshit and lies and feet dragging". 

You have a lot of growing up to to kid. Your disrespect for members whom you wish to share the same uniform does not conform well to what we are looking for in potential officer candidates or non-commission members. It appears from your post that I am not the first CF member to question your "salt". If the application process is causing you grief, and making you lash out to those around you, how do you expect to lead a platoon attack? 

I do believe one day you will wear a uniform, but I don't think it will be a CF unifrom.


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## 0007 (28 Apr 2006)

There is always one like Bograt who completely misses the mark! If you don't understand, don't reply! I wasn't counselled out as you say, in truth, my first application's snag was a recruiting error, not mine. However, your post clearly shows that you didn’t read  my post, and if you did, you wouldn’t have asked this –“The first Consent form which you appeared to have not filled out, is included in the application package provided by CFRD. That is a show stopper”.
Was it not clear that I stated that I did fill it out? I mean it says so in my post, and that is the entire gist of my writing that bloody tirade! And you question my military aptitude when you can’t even read? You either have ADD and jumped the gun, or you are a simple man. 
I think after working hard at trying to enter the forces after 4 years now, I can fairly say that I have had a shitty time of it! But you Bograt, seem to think that I shouldn't question the good people at the CFRD and because I do, I shouldn't wear the uniform? Thanks for your reply, but it was not helpful or even relevent - it was expected though, because there IS ALWAYS ONE! Does your post show others how hard-core and unquestioning you are to your military career? It just says to me that you are somewhat of a fool who talks without knowing the full story.
The gist of my beef (and I apologize a day later, I will try to refrain from bitching in the future) was that how many potential recruits get turned off from the whole procedure? It is trying enough to go through the steps, which I realize are necessary, but to have so many excuses, delays and inaction must make so many people simply drop the whole thing. To simply say "well those people are not worthy if they are so easily out off" is not really the point.


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## George Wallace (28 Apr 2006)

0007

We have been down this road before.  Someone with a "holier than thou" attitude who is having problems with the system, mouthing off in a rant, and then degrading anyone who responds in a like fashion.  Your two little rants above have told me lots of who you are.  I wouldn't want you working for me.  You would be too disruptive in the work place.  Perhaps you require an attitude adjustment.

Look here and see how it is done in some Foreign Armies:


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## Bograt (28 Apr 2006)

0007

Did some quick review of your past posts: You have stated the following:

"I am having difficulties handling a 40,000 student debt ..."

"I applied to the reg. forces in Montreal and my file dragged on for a year and a half, before I was told to get a pardon before I could restart the application." 

I'll let others decide how to judge you.

Cheers,


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## 0007 (28 Apr 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> 0007
> 
> Did some quick review of your past posts: You have stated the following:
> 
> ...


Great, you can read! I guess my previous post fell on deaf ears, as your buddy came to your defence! I guess you are a senior member, so you can say what you want with impunity. I am thinking your talents at sniffing out officer from non-officer material have been seriously wasted in your moc! You could save the military millions with your talent! Even your detective work is top-notch!


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## Mneumonics (28 Apr 2006)

I'm in a similar situation. I applied DEO in Montréal. CFAT went well, didn't take long. But since then, I haven't heard anything... I did my CFAT in January. I thought by now I would have my fitness test or medical test scheduled at least, but not so. About 3 weeks ago I went and asked about my file, I was told a credit check was being conducted and I'd get a call in a week or so. Obviously I'm still waiting.  

I have no outstanding issues that would keep my file from being processed. I just keep my fingers crossed and hope, and I know that all the wait will be worth it in the end.  ;D


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## scoutfinch (28 Apr 2006)

0007 said:
			
		

> Great, you can read! I guess my previous post fell on deaf ears, as your buddy came to your defence! I guess you are a senior member, so you can say what you want with impunity. I am thinking your talents at sniffing out officer from non-officer material have been seriously wasted in your moc! You could save the military millions with your talent! Even your detective work is top-notch!



OOO7

I disagree entirely with your above post.  Bograt does not have any specialized skill or finely tuned detector for NCM vs. officer considerations.  It is just really easy to tell when someone is a total jerk off like yourself.

By the way, you do not have a RIGHT to join the military.  It is a privilege.  

Moreover, to be perfectly frank, given your conduct here to date and your reported past issues *that you had to clear up (read obtain a pardon) I don't think you would make a very good officer in any event.  If I can figure that out from a few posts on a website, just imagine what  a recruiting centre can figure out about the type of person you are having an opportunuity to review your complete file.

Please tell me that your screen name 0007 does not mean that you want to be an Intelligence Officer?


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## George Wallace (28 Apr 2006)

0007 said:
			
		

> Great, you can read! I guess my previous post fell on deaf ears, as your buddy came to your defence! I guess you are a senior member, so you can say what you want with impunity. I am thinking your talents at sniffing out officer from non-officer material have been seriously wasted in your moc! You could save the military millions with your talent! Even your detective work is top-notch!



To back up scoutfinch's points....you are digging yourself a deeper hole everytime you come back with this attitude.  It is not the type of attitude that the CF is looking for.  NCMs would have a hard time surviving in a Unit with that type of attitude.  It would totally preclude ever becoming an officer.  At the looks of it you have a minimum of five years to wait.  Enjoy.


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## Trinity (28 Apr 2006)

0007 said:
			
		

> Great, you can read! I guess my previous post fell on deaf ears, as your buddy came to your defence! I guess you are a senior member, so you can say what you want with impunity. I am thinking your talents at sniffing out officer from non-officer material have been seriously wasted in your moc! You could save the military millions with your talent! Even your detective work is top-notch!



Well 0007...  IMO you might have fallen through the cracks, but you are also responsible.  The recruiting system, let
alone any system in the CF required gentle kicks and phone calls (effort) on your part.

If you give the clerks attitude, you will receive it back in spades. Although you may have thought you were being polite
and nice, in fact you may simply have given off an attitude on entitlement (or being smug, cocky, etc) which won't get
you very far.  

Your attitude here has been quite clear.  Poor.  If this is the same attitude you have going through the system, I would also
be inclined as a recruiter to question your loyalty.  Now, saying that, I have no idea what you said to the recruiter, or what the
recruiter said to you.  

If this has been too tiring for you, then don't join.  Getting courses, getting tours, getting paperwork, getting medals, or
anything administrative can be a huge hassle.  The military has its red tape and bureaucracy and you're just at the beginning of
it.  

As for being ganged up upon in this thread, you attacked Bograt first.  Then cry foul when someone attacks you (George Wallace)??.?
They're taking your lead.  They're also giving you honest feedback.  Finally, if we "don't understand" the situation its because 

1) the format of your post was like reading a brick.  Use paragraphs.. for the love of GOD
2) maybe you left out details (most likely in things you have done wrong, or reasonable things the recruiters told you and you're leaving out)

Your application problems - well, it sucks
Your attitude here and towards colleagues - its sucks too... and its a reflection of how you are behaving to them.


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## acclenticularis (28 Apr 2006)

I don't know the details of your experience, other than that which you have posted.  Waiting for a few years seems a long time to bear.  There must be more to the story than that which you have posted.  I find it a little odd that there are some that seem to have such trouble in getting in to the CF whereas others seem to glide in rather effortlessly.  Based on what I have heard from friends in recruiting, there are always determining factors that cause delays in files.  We must not get the whole story in this forum.  Sure, there are clerks that are not the greatest (that is how it is everywhere), however, I have noticed that those that complain repeatedly about their entitlements are those that tend to have difficulty in the recruiting process (complained about the cost of rations and board, possibly being posted to the prairies, file transfer, no information on file from recruiters ...).  Where the hell else do you get a free education, get paid while being educated, get full benefits, full pension, ample advancement opportunities, get a decent salary, on and on ...  I am really getting tired of those that are in the recruiting process bitching about the military and dressing down serving members.  Guess what pal, those serving members that you encounter on this forum are fairly representative of those that you will encounter if you get in.  If you can't take it on this forum, then how the hell are you going to take it in person and have it amplified many times over.  If you want to survive in the military, and especially if you want to be an officer in the army and be respected by those that you are managing, if you get in, check the attitude at the door.  Actually, if you don't, you likely wouldn't survive IAP/BOTP anyway.  Having said the above, I have encountered many that had rotten attitudes in the beginning that adjusted during basic or soon thereafter.  Those that didn't had a really hard time and often released early or were shown the door.  Good luck.


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Apr 2006)

0007
I am not a recruiter, nor do I have any special inside info on procedure.  I do know a few things about the military that I will share
1.  Officer cadets that display an impatient, arrogant or otherwise un-humble attitude are not appreciated.  And they are actually in the CF.  You are not even in yet, to that sort of 'tude is even less tolerable.  
2.  Don't f_ck with clerks.  Or any support staff for that matter.  They have the ability to make your life hell, or be a fantastic resource.  I'm sure the members here could come up with pages of stories how one officer being a dick got nothing from them, while one who was respectful got the world.  And I'm betting the officer who got shot down invariably asked "how did you get that".
3.  Pardons are only needed after criminal convictions.  Criminal convictions are only as a result of fairly serious criminal acts, or repeat minor criminal acts.  Having seen multiple junior delinquents get diversions, alternate sentacing, conditional and absolute discharges and judicial "warnings" (the most aggravating), in order to have something on your record that needs a pardon is a fairly serious thing.  
4.  Out of control personal debt also a big deal to the CF.  Maybe you have gotten your payments in order now, but your credit score may suck.  
5.  Many young men and women want to be in the CF.  It is a competition, and as Scoutfinch says, membership is a privilege, not a right.  
And possibly most importantly
6.  You are pissing off people whom you may ultimately work for, or may have an actual say in whether or not you get in.  This isn't some hippie forum of faceless tools who can throw out any tripe and feel safe in "they don't know who I am".  There are many very senior members here, ones with influence.  You don't know anything about the people who just read or "lurk", just the ones who have taken time to try to sort you out.  If you can't handle criticism from the non vacuum side of a monitor, you will be a fairly piss poor officer.   Eating humble pie is part of the process.  And guess what?  You will never be so cool or so high in the promotion process that you will EVER get to be a dick to people and get away with it.  
In a very real and tangable way, you are screwing up a potential career with your posts.  

Welcome to Army.ca.  Start apologizing.


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## fleeingjam (28 Apr 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> By the way, you do not have a RIGHT to join the military.  It is a privilege.



Bingo! might i add, I believe it will be my highest honour to serve in this military.

- 0007, its all a waiting game "hurry up and wait"


- Syed


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## 0007 (28 Apr 2006)

Thanks for the advise zipperhead. I haven't come across as rude, arrogant or smug with the clerks, believe me, just her perhaps. I was just frustrated and vented it here, but I was also raising the question about how the beaucracy must drive many to just quit wo would otherwise be fine candidates. Sorry to Bograt and that stupid shit I said, I shouldn't have posted that in a frustrated state of mind. Better here I suppose than the center?


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## Former291er (28 Apr 2006)

0007, while I do not agree with your attitude, I do agree with you that there are some admin problems within the recruiting process. I have had and still am to a point having problems with my CFRC. 
The people working the front desk are always people who failed to finish basic training and really have no idea about most questions you ask causing you to bug an officer(this is the case at my center anyway). Paper work is always sent through the mail, and while that may seem fine, it is the year 2006 and technology allows for fax and email. While I know some paperwork you need the original copies, some you don't. My center spent a good 6 months looking for my documents because they used snail mail to each of my units and release units and the archives when a simple email to each would have taken much less time. Not to mention the problem trying to get something done on a Friday, forget it. And it seems that my recruiting center is a little behind the curve compaired to other centers as they still do not have the new fiscal year numbers as of today.
I would think that about half of people that go through the recruiting process have delays and problems but becoming arrogant and pizzed off is not going to further help your cause. You must remember that it is not just the CFRC involved in your file, its Borden and Ottawa too, so the delays MAY have nothing to do with your CFRC.
So to finish, I think that many of us feel your pain with the delays. I hate to tell you that paperwork is going to be screwed up through your whole military career, and if your this mad about it now, I wouldn't want to be sitting next to you in 20 years when your pay gets screwed up or you get charged double for rations or some of the other problems that can occur.
Chill out bro,
Rob.


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## Former291er (28 Apr 2006)

007, you replied while I was still typing and did not see the apology so please disregard the arrogance remark.
Rob.


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## Torlyn (28 Apr 2006)

0007 said:
			
		

> Sorry to Bograt and that stupid crap I said, I shouldn't have posted that in a frustrated state of mind. Better here I suppose than the center?



Insufficient, IMHO.  Your first reaction was over the top, and blatantly rude.  I'm stunned at how pleasant everyone has been with you and your attitude in this thread.  Lashing out at those trying to help, and then belittling them shows extremely poor character.  As does the misinformation (lying?) to Bograt regarding your credit issues and criminal past.  Pissing off those with whom you'll be one day working, and potential superior officers, before you have a chance to meet them is an interesting way to begin life in the military.  Let me know how that works out for you.  It's too bad you didn't rant at the centre, that way, your recruiting officer could have had a good look at who you REALLY are.  It is difficult to earn respect if you go out of your way to make enemies of those trying to help.

I received my commission by the grace of God and Her Majesty, Elizabeth II not too long ago.  I've learned a lot in the limited time that I've been in, and I want to share some of that knowledge with you.

Do NOT join the military.  It is NOT for you.  You asked a question, and were answered.  Your first reaction is to freak out and attack someone, and only upon the urging of cooler heads to recind comments, you are guaranteed never to earn the respect of your fellow officers, much less your troops.  And I promise you, you will not be respected by fellow officers with that attitude.  And it is much, MUCH harder to earn the respect of your NCO's and NCM's.  Do I have NCM / Officer material radar?  No.  I just know how we reacted to people like you in basic.

It is noble that you wish to join the military, I cannot fault you there.  However, without patience, you will self destruct VERY quickly.  Things happen at 1 speed in the Canadian Forces.  Military speed.  What speed is that?  Whatever speed things happen to be moving at any given time or place.  Might take you 2 years to get in, and someone with the exact same issues, 1 year.  Why?  Because that's the way it works.  Frustrating, yes.  Worth ranting at others over?  Definitely not.  Talk to anyone awaiting training.

Take your degree and try and find employment in the civilian world.  The military is not for everyone, and that is not a knock on your character.  I know some people whom I hold in high regard that applied and were deemed unsuccessful applicants.  If you are still adamant about joining the forces, wait a few more years, and think on the qualities which you believe officers must have, and live your life in that manner.

T


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## Scott (29 Apr 2006)

He and his alter ego have been banned, no worries about him in the future.

0007, hope you got the attention you were looking for, have fun applying and being told to PFO.


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## wildman0101 (29 Apr 2006)

does that mean like behind the butler huts
go for it cheers


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