# Shotguns in the CF



## Enzo (30 Nov 2003)

Just wondering why the combat shotgun is still mainly a modified sporting shotgun. I know there are a few mag-fed auto‘s out there and they‘re nice, yet they hold on average 5-10 rds of 12 gauge (SPAS-15 & USAS-12 respectively) The South African Striker is nice, but it‘s 12 rd cyclinder is not exactly easy to reload in a hurry. Possibly, but not the same as a magazine. Is it a matter of, if it ain‘t broke, don‘t fix? Or are there new designs on the horizon?

Also, what of those prototypes from a few years ago that played with flechette projectiles. Seem to recall an H&K-Olin variant which I believe was a bullpup design (I‘d have to look that up to be certain) and a S&W design which was over a meter in lenght and was accurate enough to hit a tree @ 1 km (and blast huge chuncks of it in the process).

Any news on these?


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## Redeye (30 Nov 2003)

It‘s a combination of "if it ain‘t broke don‘t fix it" and "we don‘t really need high-tech shotguns for the small amount of use they get" I suspect.

Their limited application makes them very low on the list of priorities of a very cash-strapped CF.


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## OLD SCHOOL (30 Nov 2003)

Even in a cash rich enviornment, a Rem. 870 is all you need for any job. Fancy never works in the field. MP-5,870 and sig 9mm make great calling cards.


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## Enzo (30 Nov 2003)

I wasn‘t thinking of this as a possibility for the CF, just wondering if any new development on the subject had surfaced as of late.

You know, new toys to play with, etc...


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## Xorlarrin (1 Dec 2003)

The remington light rail mounted shotgun is a good weapon for the M4-C8 as you can mount it under the barrel of the the weapon on the rails


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## Enzo (2 Dec 2003)

I‘ve seen variations of that before, to what end? Pick a flavour. As for the "good for opening doors" argument, so is a M203.


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Dec 2003)

Martial Artist...i didn‘t know REemington made a shotgun for that purpose...I knew Cienar and KAC did....do you know what the model number is?


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## Jarnhamar (2 Dec 2003)

Having a shotgun under a rifle seems like a bit of a waste considering the weight of the shotgun and weight of it‘s ammo


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Dec 2003)

Not really since the most likely purpose of it is to breach doors. Having a mated assault rifle or carbine with a shotgun cuts down on wieght more then having somone carry both a shotgun and rifle/carbine and both ammo types.


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## Slim (8 Dec 2003)

Just some thoughts on some of the posts.
-The SPAS12 is a great weapon. Italian I think...The worlds various militaries have looked at it and decided that it‘s too delicate for field use and too many parts when stripped down.

Apparently the flechette round is not quite the man-stopper that everyone thinks it is. SSG, or .000 buck, is probably still the best "counter-ambush" round!

I think the CF has some Rem 870‘s kicking around although I never saw any.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Dec 2003)

Apparently the engineers have some:
 http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/allied_canada/f_cdn02.jpg 
 and the Naval Boarding Parties use it as well.


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## East Side Soprano (2 Jan 2004)

That carbine/shotgun combination is a weapon developed by the United States for their SEALs (or SF, not sure but I think its SEALs), it‘s called the M4 MasterKey. An M4(A1) carbine, C8 in Canadian terms, with a modified Remington 870 mounted on a rail beneath the barrel.


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Jan 2004)

You sure its a modified Remington 870 and not an Ithacha Model 37?


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## East Side Soprano (5 Jan 2004)

I‘m pretty sure it is the 870, but perhaps versions with the Ithaca 37 have been used.


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## babicma (27 Feb 2004)

I was wondering to what extent does the CF employ shotguns?

I know it might not be well suited in the field but I was wondering about jungle or FIBUA environments.

Although the CF might not like the look or manufacturer of the Saiga I think these shotguns could be usefull.

  1.  http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga12.htm 

  2. Spetznaz version:  http://www.saiga-12.com/Photo_Gallery.htm


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## Infanteer (27 Feb 2004)

We had shotguns in the company weapons cage overseas.  I remember my section commander requisitoned a couple for a cordon-and-search op on some bad guys, he was denied for fear of the "aggressive and escalatory nature of the weapon."  (So we went in with rifles and LMGs, go figure)

They looked to be the standard pump action twelve gauge.  Nothing as fancy as that Saiga.


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## babicma (27 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb]  he was denied for fear of the "aggressive and escalatory nature of the weapon."
> [/qb]


Boy o Boy!


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Feb 2004)

The navy uses the Remington 870 with folding stock for boarding ops in conjunction with the MP5 and P225.


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## Pikache (27 Feb 2004)

Apparently there is fletchette rounds for M203 which could be used in substitute for shotgun.


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## Scoobie Newbie (27 Feb 2004)

Bet that would hurt.  Hope it arms before 50m though.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Feb 2004)

I have seen pictures of LAV‘s in Kabul with a rear guard in the hatch carrying a shotgun, couldn‘t tell you the type though.


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Feb 2004)

If you can post a URL with the LAV/shotgun combo Colin we might be able to help you out.


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## MG34 (27 Feb 2004)

It‘s a Remington 870,7shot magazine,Surefire Flashlight Forend.


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## Enzo (28 Feb 2004)

CFL - M203 w/ 40mm Flechettes would be like firing a large grouping of needles, what would be armed?


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2004)

Well I wasn‘t sure how it would deploy.  With the grenade it needs a certain amount of revolutions (apporx. 50m) to be armed and then blow up.


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## Enzo (28 Feb 2004)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy1999/dot-e/army/99xm100140mm.html 

Should provide a basis for clarification

 http://www.btselem.org/English/Legal_Documents/HC8990_02_flechette_Verdict.asp


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## Michael OLeary (28 Feb 2004)

There is a 40 mm flechette round ( M1001 Canister Cartridge (Infantry) ) but the pages that mention it only appear to describe it as used in the  MK19 40mm Machine Gun, MOD 3 and not the M203. It may or may not also be currently available as single rounds for the M203. It is not described as having an arming distance.

40 mm ammunition (Global Security page) 

FM 23-31 40-MM GRENADE LAUNCHER, M203


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## Thompson_JM (28 Feb 2004)

I was under the belief the flechette rounds were banned by the geneva convention


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2004)

So are snipers and .50 shots against people. (I believe).


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## MJP (28 Feb 2004)

The .50 cal thing was debated at another site I look at.  I poached this from the site, as it lays out the law of the land quite well.

".50 is perfectly legal to use, and it breaks no conventions.  The next time someone tells you that, ask him to cite the part of the GC, or any convention, that says that.  Check it out for yourself below

Here 

There are restrictions on certain types of ammunition, e.g. expanding, fragmenting, and poisoned bullets, or explosive rounds under 400 grams, but none on size as such."


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2004)

Is it legal to shot people with armour piercing trace (Apahce).


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2004)

Saw a vid of one shoting up 3 pers who didn‘t appear to be armed.


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## MJP (28 Feb 2004)

actually I think the whole discussion over on the other site revolved around that exact video you are talking about.  

Here‘s the discussion here;

Discussion 

Some valid points on both sides, and it gets pretty heated as most things of this nature do.


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2004)

That wasn‘t the vid in question but oh well. The one I was referring to was shot from the camera of an Apache.


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## MJP (28 Feb 2004)

they talk about that one too......somewhere on that site is a discussion of the apache one


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2004)

ah I see.  Too much beotching for me to wade through.


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## Enzo (28 Feb 2004)

Are they concerned with the fire from the Apache being ‘tracers?‘ or are they concerned that a 30mm cannon round is being applied to ‘soft‘ targets?

Having said that, dead is dead. 30mm, 12.7mm, 5.56mm. What‘s the difference? Conventional munitions, I do not have a problem with. NBC, that bothers me. I can wrap my head around getting my *** shot, but walking along and beginning to cough due to something in the air, that just pisses me off.


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2004)

The GC states no tracer can be used to kill someone.  I couldn‘t find any info on a 30mm cannon although its probabley deemed excessive against people.


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## scm77 (29 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by CFL:
> [qb] The GC states no tracer can be used to kill someone.[/qb]


Aren‘t you supposed to have three or four bullets and then a tracer in each magazine?  If they were illegal that would mean that every forth (or fifth) shot you would have to miss on purpose.  

I think there was some sort of mix up in how you understood it.


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## George Wallace (29 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by scm77:
> Aren‘t you supposed to have three or four bullets and then a tracer in each magazine?  If they were illegal that would mean that every forth (or fifth) shot you would have to miss on purpose.
> 
> I think there was some sort of mix up in how you understood it. [/QB]


We do not load magazines in this fashion.  You are thinking of belted ammo for MGs.  The only time that you may find Tracer fired single shot is as a spotting round to direct the fire of other weapons.

There is nothing to prevent a tracer round from wounding or killing a combatant in battle.  

GW


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## MJP (29 Feb 2004)

CFL are you talking about this for tracers?(#4) 



> [The Human Rights Library wishes to express its gratitude to the Institute Henry Dunant for its contribution of this document.]
> 
> The United Nations Conference on Prohibitions or Restrictions of Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects, convened on the basis of United Nations General Assembly resolutions 32/152 of 19 December 1977, 33/70 of 28 September 1978 and 34/82 of 11 December 1979, met at the Palais des Nations in Geneva from 10 to 28 September 1979 and from 15 September to 10 October 1980.
> 
> ...


Because here on protocol III appendix D it clearly states.



> For the purpose of this Protocol:
> 
> 1. "Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.
> 
> ...


edited for spelling


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## Slumsofsackville (29 Feb 2004)

So you cannot engage a person with a C6 or C9 becuase every 5th round is a tracer. Makes no sence. Tracers play a vital role in MG fire.


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## MJP (29 Feb 2004)

Robert did you read the GC protocols above?  No where did it say you can‘t engage enemy combatants with tracer.  MG tracer is legal and can be used without restriction.


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## portcullisguy (29 Feb 2004)

MJP you are correct.  I read it the same way you did...

Incendiary includes flamethrowers, etc., but does NOT include "tracers, illuminants, smoke, etc" rounds.

I don‘t think the incediary effect of a common 5.56mm or 7.62mm tracer round will do significantly more damage to a person than the round itself is already doing when entering a human.


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## MG34 (2 Mar 2004)

Tracers are NOT considered Incendiary rounds,never were.Tracers are intended to mark targets,show the trajectory of machine gun bursts,act as aids to navigation,and a whole whack of other uses. The lack of understanding of the Hague and Geneva Conventions with regards to weapons is pretty appauling in the CF as a whole for instance some common myths out there that I have heard:

1.You cannot use .50cal against troops-- Bullshyte!!! Nothing bans the use of .50cal against troops,heck check yours pams trrops .50cal HMG states 1850m as the max effective range when engaging dismounted troops.

2. Snipers use illegal ammunition--The 168garin Boat Tailed Hollow Point bullet uses a hollow cavity as a function of it‘s design.The hollw area is covered by a partial full metal jacket.As the hollow point is a feature of the design of the bullet and not a modified round it is legal.

3. It is illegal to shoot at airborne troops while under canopy in the air-- This ruling applies to shot down piolts only,airborne troops are fair game just the same as if they were on the ground.

Finally with regards to ammunition the Canadian Forces does not issue any ammunition that cannot be used against enemy troops in time of war or any conflict from the 9mm to the 25mm and beyond all can be used against enemy troops.


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## MJP (2 Mar 2004)

Since we went horribly off-track with a GC lesson combined with some myth debunking.  

I found a picture of the shotgun that ColinP mentioned before from a  LAV patrol in Kabul.  It was in the Canadian Military Journal and it caught my eye since we were just talking about this subject.   Shotgun 

Maybe MG34 could fill us in on how they were issued/used in Athena.


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## MG34 (2 Mar 2004)

The 12 ga. is issued one per section in the Rifle Coys and basically if you can justify having one you can get it issed out on a temp. basis .They are used for close protection of vehicles and patrols in normal use.They have been used on other specific missions such as raids on suspect homes and compounds.As well they are used for vermin control and dealing with dogs and such critters that are in abundance in Kabul and outlying areas.


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by MG34:
> [qb] Tracers are NOT considered Incendiary rounds,never were.Tracers are intended to mark targets,show the trajectory of machine gun bursts,
> [/qb]


Ironically, the highest scoring fighter groups in the USAAF in WW II were those that stopped using tracers - seemed that the ballistics of the tracers and the invisible AP, ball or whatever they called it ammo were different.

Would this not be the case for the ground mount .50 we use today, also?


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## George Wallace (2 Mar 2004)

Opps ....Double Post


GW


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## George Wallace (2 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> - seemed that the ballistics of the tracers and the invisible AP, ball or whatever they called it ammo were different.
> 
> Would this not be the case for the ground mount .50 we use today, also? [/QB]


The differences are there, but are considered negligible.  Gunners are taught the Theory of Gunnery and about the different characteristics of the various ammo used, and if required they know how to compensate for those differences.

GW


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## Doug VT (3 Mar 2004)

At range there is quite a difference.  As the trace compound burns off, the round becomes considerably lighter.  They are usually lighter to begin with.  The trajectories of tracer and ball are quite different.  It‘s absolutely true, and makes complete sense.


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## MG34 (3 Mar 2004)

Actually no it is not entirely true,the tracer ammunition does indeed have a different trajectory from ball,but the tracer still falls within the beaten zone of the MG so there is no problem with the use of the tracer to spot the trajectory of the burst.The difference in the path of flight are not enough to cause concern,if it were the MGs would have to have different sight settings for every tracer round fired compared to ball.
 Modern tracer rounds burn at a much more regular rate than in WW2 which has further increased their accuraccy in comparison to ball rounds.Once again this is illustrated by the fact that C44 AP-T .50,API-T rounds can be fired on the same data as ball rounds.


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Mar 2004)

I have seen a quote elsewhere from the GC, that explicitly states that the ban on incendiary ammunition use against human target does not apply to tracers or smoke rounds.

Basically if the round is designed to inflict pain and suffering to the target by it's incendiary nature then it is banned. 

Interesting note, watched a show on P.L. Robertson, the inventor or the Robertson screw (bless him!) who was a Canadian, apparently he tried to convince the high command in WWI to develop tracer bullets to help AA guns aim their fire. Apparently they did not come into generally use until shortly before WWII.

One of the problems with Tracers rounds, is that they don't follow the same trajectory as the regular bullets, so they can set you off target over longer ranges.


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## George Wallace (3 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Colin P:
> [qb] One of the problems with Tracers rounds, is that they don't follow the same trajectory as the regular bullets, so they can set you off target over longer ranges. [/qb]


Yes there are differences.  However, Gunners are taught the differences, and how to compensate at different ranges.  They also watch for "Splash" on target/target area.  They learn what to do after "Trace Burn Out", which brings up the fact that Tracers do not burn forever, but for only a short period of time.

GW


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## babicma (4 Mar 2004)

Seeing that the last topic went "off topic" with tracers etc etc etc.

I found some stuff on CF shot guns:

1.  http://www2.sfu.ca/casr/101-c870intro.htm 

2.  http://www2.sfu.ca/casr/101-c870p.htm 

3. JTF-2 Shotgun of choice:  http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/shotgun/m4s90.html 

4. And the GI CF shotgun:  http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh23-e.htm


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## meni0n (4 Mar 2004)

Why are people never satisfied with a c7 is beyond me.


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Mar 2004)

Because sometimes the C7 is not the right weapon for the job.


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## Franko (4 Mar 2004)

The big thing is to look for the "beaten zone"...where the rounds are landing and put that on the target after TBO(small puffs of dirt)...to quote Ripley...

"It‘s the only way to be sure...."

Regards


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Mar 2004)

Can you see the "neaten zone" in the TIS? I know you can in Steel Beasts, but I was wondering if that would show in the real world?


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## babicma (4 Mar 2004)

Different tools for different jobs!


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## bossi (4 Mar 2004)

I guess it‘s not as popular as it used to be, but my favourite is still the Mossberg 590 Intimidator (with the laser designator and bayonet lug)
I see they‘ve got a double action model now:
Mossberg 590 catalogue page

Anybody care to confirm or refute the claim that the shotgun earned its‘ nickname as the "Equalizer" during trench warfare ... ? 

There are still times that a shotgun comes in handier than a C7, C8 etc.


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## btk_joker (4 Mar 2004)

ie. urban warfare?


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## babicma (4 Mar 2004)

I like the idea of the Saiga semi auto assault rifle type shotgun.

I think it could be a usefull tool in FIBUA situations or any urban warfare senerio for that matter.

Here are a few pics of semi auto shotguns...

Russian Saiga 12ga.
































Italian Franchi SPAS-15 12ga.

The Franchi SPAS 15 shotgun is a further development of the earlier SPAS-12 shotgun. SPAS-15 is intended as a law enforcement or a military weapon, that require reliability, versatility and firepower. The firepower is achieved by using detachable, single stack box magazines along with the gas-operated semi-automatic action, so multiple shots could be fired in quick succession and magazine could be changed much faster than reloading a conventional tubular shotgun magazine. The versatility is achieved by complementing the semi-automatic action with manually selectable pump action, which allows to fire low pressure ammunition, such as less lethal tear gas or rubber slug projectiles






Italian Franchi SPAS-12 12ga.

It can be used as a gas operated semi-automatic repeater or as a manually operated pump action repeater, depending on the mission and ammunition used. Since its introduction SPAS-12 became a very popular police and special forces weapon, being versatile, reliable and with good firepower.


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## babicma (4 Mar 2004)

Italian Valtro PM-5

The Valtro PM-5 shotgun had been developed by the Italian company Valtro back in the 1980s and is still in production. It is used by various law enforcement and military forces, including the French Navy. 






South African Stryker


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## Evan (4 Mar 2004)

http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=5299  

im sure theres some pics if u spend a bit of time on google. from the pics that i did see a long time ago it looked really bulky but im sure they wouldnt feild it if it was too much of a problem.


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## babicma (4 Mar 2004)

Nice..

Heres a pic of it...







The lightweight shotgun system has three configurations. The attachment variation, top, will be the one fielded to the 10th Mountain Division


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## Evan (4 Mar 2004)

looks handy eh, might be a little to intimadating for the CF though    ,


the middle one looks pretty cool.


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## babicma (5 Mar 2004)

Not a bad little piece eh!

I dont know about having it under the barrel though? Could be kinda odd using it?

Looks like Diemaco has the same stand alone concept with the M-203A1 laucher.


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## babicma (5 Mar 2004)

Here‘s a Italian SPAS 15 in Isreal (its the top one)






Folding stock version


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## Franko (5 Mar 2004)

Colin...yes they do, and quite well I might add.

Regards


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## 1feral1 (5 Mar 2004)

12ga 2 3/4in Shotguns in Australian service are as fol:

- Rem 870 (P) with fixed stock, 20in bbl
- Rem 870 (P) with folding stock, 18in bbl
- Rem 870 for under M4, rail mounted,13in bbl
- Mossberg M500 series, fixed, folding and pistol gripped only, 20in bbl; and
- a variety of self loaders of different makes for the Echinda robots for EOD disposals

Types of ammo are: 
- 00 buck
- slugs, both HP and standard; and
- various sizes of shot for the purpose required

Used by all three services of the ADF.

Cheers,

Wes


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## babicma (8 Mar 2004)

New Serbian Combat Shotgun






US Army


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Mar 2004)

Ummmm I could be wrong but that "New Serbian Shotgun" looks like one of those six shot 40 mm grenade launchers produced by South Africa.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Mar 2004)

It is.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Mar 2004)

Thought so..


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## babicma (9 Mar 2004)

I think you are righ Ex-Dragoon.

It is a grenade launcher but it is made in Serbia.

It actually says Made in Yugoslavia on it.


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## babicma (9 Mar 2004)

Mossberg 500 Bullpup, 12 ga.


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## donkon (15 Mar 2004)

Hey,

I was wondering, why was the shotgun invented?? What is it for exactly ? To blow someone into  a million pieces??


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## Tyrnagog (15 Mar 2004)

Well, I can‘t say exactly why it was invented.. but here is a couple of conjectures...

1) As a hunting weapon...  If you have ever gone duck or goose hunting, you‘ll understand why..

2) It‘s a throwback to the musket..  "Rifling" as we know it hadn‘t been invented yet, and it was cheaper to fill your gun with buckshot then a lead bullet...

Any other ideas?


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 Mar 2004)

STAT


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## GrahamD (15 Mar 2004)

Exactly, it was probably first invented for hunting birds.
It would be very difficult to hit a duck flying away from you at 40kph and 100ft alt with a rifle.
The shotgun makes shots like that realistic, once you learn how to lead your target.

As for why police forces and militaries around the world use them today, it would be because they are excellent close quarter weapons with effective stopping power.
You can shoot the hinges or deadbolts right out of a door if you have to, and the neccesity for perfect accuracy is considerably reduced.
A center mass shot with either buckshot, or a slug from less than 50 feet will take down anyone, even if they were wearing kevlar it would still knock them on their *bum*.

My dad used to hunt grouse with a 12 guage, he would aim high so that the bottom of the spread would just catch their head and neck.  It was very effective, their head would literaly disappear.  Shooting a grouse with a rifle is very difficult, since their heads are so small, and shooting them center mass destoys all the meat.

Anyway, the shotgun is definately a useful weapon, and shooting people into a million pieces was probably not what it was intended for when it was invented.
Besides, to do that kind of damage to a person, you would need to be standing really really close to them.


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## Infanteer (15 Mar 2004)

Question has been sufficently answered, however, Don Kon also appears to be trolling for something, so I‘m going to lock this.

Don Kon, in the future, if you want to ask a question, pose it in a serious manner or it will recieve undue attention from the staff.


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## mudgunner49 (19 Aug 2004)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Why are people never satisfied with a c7 is beyond me.



...next time you go out to play 18 holes, just take your putter...


Blake


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## scm77 (19 Aug 2004)

^^That's a good example.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Aug 2004)

> ...next time you go out to play 18 holes, just take your putter...




What a simple statement that can be applied to a thousand situations. Thats perfect


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## MG34 (19 Aug 2004)

babicma said:
			
		

> I think you are righ Ex-Dragoon.
> 
> It is a grenade launcher but it is made in Serbia.
> 
> It actually says Made in Yugoslavia on it.



It is just another ripped off design,in this case of the South African Milkor MGL-6 40mm Rotary grenade launcher


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## Ex-Dragoon (20 Aug 2004)

Thanks MG34 I knew I wasn't talking out of my @ss.


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## KevinB (20 Aug 2004)

Remington 870 Police Magnum  - simple and all that is required - and CF issue.

Only use we have for it here is breaching, so the 18" bbl on our is a little long.

The newest version the MCS http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/870mcs.htm


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## Bartok5 (24 Aug 2004)

I owned a Mossberg 500 Bullpup a long time ago.  It was an abject piece of shite - just a standard "low-rent" Mossberg 500 encased in a bunch of rattly plastic.  I sold it to someone who didn't care about performance, and that was that.

As for the Rem 870P?  My personal experience has been that this pump-gun is all that you need.  I own one as private citizen, and having put many, many rounds down-range I trust it implicitly.   We had them issued on the basis of one per section in Afghanistan during my tour in 2002, and the "Remmies" served extremely well.  They're not just for breaching, although that is an emminently viable role.  A 1 oz slug will take the fight out of just about anyone within 100 metres, which is pretty much max engagement range in a urban environment in any case....  Not to mention a slug's ability to punch through light cover and automotive glass, confound vehicular radiators and engine blocks, etc, etc.  Then consider (if we ever buy them) all of the various "less lethal" .12 ga munitions on the LE market - beanbag rounds, rubber baton rounds, etc. etc.  The pump shotgun remains an extremely viable and versatile infantry weapon in the current inventory.  There are NO international legal limitations on the weapon itself, so anyone quoting the Hague Conventions is entirely out to lunch.  Trust me - we went through all of that prior to my former unit's deployment to A'Stan in 2002, and the lawyers said that we were good to go.  

Bottom line?  Shotguns are good for selected infantry work.  There ought to be one in every rifle section during operations in complex terrain - urban or otherwise.  It is all a question of the correct ammo natures for the job at hand.


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## Ex-Dragoon (24 Aug 2004)

Mark what if they issed a C7 fitted with a 12guage KAC masterkey would this be something the infantry would want?


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## MG34 (25 Aug 2004)

The MasterKey is an answer to a question that was never asked,IMHO it is a useless piece of kit to be hanging off of a rifle. An M203 would be the better option if you need to hang something off of a rifle.The device needed the most is a breaching stand off device,which allows you place the device right against the door when doing a breach.The stand off device will focus the full power of the shot into a small precise area,while allowing the expanded gases to vent. The 18in barrel is fine for patrolling,roadblocks etc but seeing more often than not the shotguns are used in some breaching operations a 14 inch barrel would be a better option,as the barrels are easily changes out you could swap barrels depending on the mission at hand.


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## KevinB (26 Aug 2004)

Ditto to MG34  ;D


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## Enzo (29 Jan 2005)

Thanks to Babicima for getting this thread back on track awhile ago. (I'm just catching up on my old threads now) Seems the Masterkey is the answer to the question I was posing. I was unfamiliar with it prior, an interesting concept. Not certain if I'd like to be the one to carry that under my M4, but still, interesting nonetheless. I think the Russians have a winner with the Saiga, wonder if the Yanks will try to develop something superior? The Europeans seem pleased with the Franchi products, anything coming up from Benelli or H&K? What of other regions? Anything new coming up?


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## Britney Spears (29 Jan 2005)

What is pam prescribed drill for breaching doors? Do you blow the lock? the hinges? all three? If you only need to blow the lock then a breaching round for the M203 would be easier to carry than a full blown shotgun, although presumably for house clearing this would be a non-issue.


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## noreaga808 (10 Feb 2005)

Babicima touched on the Valtro PM-5 but had a different picture. The version shown below is non-restricted, has a 14" ported barrel and uses a 7 round mag. Apparently it's used worldwide by some police forces and militaries according to thier website. Benelli developed the M4 shotgun shown below for the American Military. Both of these shotguns are way too expensive, the Valtro being $800 and the Benelli $2500 retail(I've been window shopping). I don't see the cash strapped Canadian military replacing the tried and proven Remington 870's especially with expensive fancy models. The Remington modular system that KevinB illustrated previously makes perfect sense to me. The 870 is already in service so all that would be needed is Remington to supply modular kits to the CF, hopefully giving the CF's a good deal since they're an existing customer. The expense to train the Gun Plumbers would be minimal due to needing very little if any additional training for the new kit. I'll attach another pic to show the 3 different configurations. The pic has Remington's logo, let me know if it's unacceptable to post such a picture.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Jul 2005)

To much time playing video games where you get to carry 100 lbs of weapons plus ammo without getting tired!


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## purple peguin (7 Jul 2005)

you got it right there colin p when will they come out with a realistic game, I have a game that will let you carry about 10 weapons plus hundreds of rounds with it.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Jul 2005)

This thread is not about video games. Keep it on track.

PP
I'm sure you'll agree, you've been warned about this sort of thing. Be very careful. Last chance.


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## 392 (7 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> What is pam prescribed drill for breaching doors? Do you blow the lock? the hinges? all three? If you only need to blow the lock then a breaching round for the M203 would be easier to carry than a full blown shotgun, although presumably for house clearing this would be a non-issue.



There are more effective ways to breach through a door than to use a shotgun (M203 would probably work better for long range breaching followed up by effective MG fire), although it might take a little longer to set up. Det cord will blow the door/lock/hinge/whatever to smithereens ;D (or be precise and only take out the hinges or door handles - situation and amount of explosive required dictates) as well as confuse or hurt the hell outta the bad guy on the other side of it. Of course, this would only be used in a situation where damage / death to whatever is on the other side of said door is the main effort.
Anyway, there are different types of charges that we as Engineers use in a FIBUA / OBUA setting to get the grunts through the door / wall / floor / etc. (so they can do what they do best - get the bad guys   ), but I'm a little beat right now to start trying to explain them and their uses.

Anyway, not much for the shotgun discussion, but some extra food for thought in the FIBUA breaching ideas.....


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## Britney Spears (7 Jul 2005)

Thanks 392, I think the shotgun/M203 would only be useful for an infantry section who need to get through a door and into a room "right now". Experience has shown that entering through doorways are a bad idea all together, and it is helpful to assume that all doors are rigged to go boom and/or covered by fire. If I had a sapper with detcord handy I would avoid the door completely and instead go through the walls. Ideally there would be a lightweight, easy to use shaped charge kit that will make a good sized hole through the wall, disorientate and stun the occupants of the room without completely vaporizing them (hey, less than lethal!) which can be carried and used by the infantryman, so that an infantry section can penetrate and clear a bunch of rooms without needing engineer support, and I suppose they can also be used on doors as well.. The Israelis found this to be very efffective in Jenin.  

I think the biggest obstacle with this approach would be the time and expense it would take to train all the dumb mudsloggers to safely and effectively use the charges. Of course the one size fits all type of charge probably won't work every time on every wall but it beats trying to pile 8 guys through a narrow doorway that might be booby trapped or have a 14.5mm zeroed in on it. This way the infantry can move through buildings much faster and more safely, and save the valuable and expensive sappers and let them do the more specialized demo stuff (i.e. clearing routes )

Just thinking aloud, I don't have any details to flesh this out, and of course I haven't actually tried this in real life, so please, enlighten me with all the critisism you can muster.....


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## a_majoor (8 Jul 2005)

> Ideally there would be a lightweight, easy to use shaped charge kit that will make a good sized hole through the wall, disorientate and stun the occupants of the room without completely vaporizing them (hey, less than lethal!) which can be carried and used by the infantryman, so that an infantry section can penetrate and clear a bunch of rooms without needing engineer support, and I suppose they can also be used on doors as well..



It is called the 84mm HEDP (High Explosive, Dual Purpose) round for the Carl-G; and it can blast a huge hole in a wall when set for "instantanious" (to allow dynamic entry) or penetrate most standard construction and detonate inside the room when set for "delay" (if you are in a big hurry and just need to kill them all). It also will put most APC and below class vehicles out of action, and certainly "ring the bells" of any tanker who gets hit by one.

Pre made "frame charges" can also be assembled by your local engineer section, in the simplest form it is a styrofoam sheet the size of the hole you want, with det cord or a cutting charge taped around the edge and usually a long pole to help you set it against the wall without exposure. Like all charges, it works a lot better if it is "tamped", but guys in a hurry usually dont carry a pile of sandbags and spend time stacking them on the "friendly" side of the frame charge.

Sadly, most of the other fun toys we carry are not very suitable for wall breaching, you will either get a tiny hole (M-72, 84mm HEAT, 25mm), or the explosion is unfocused although it might penetrate North American style drywall construction or tin "shantytown" walls (hand grenades, claymores).

P.S., Britney, did you know the Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun also had a bayonet lug?


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## TCBF (8 Jul 2005)

Wouldn't look at all out of place in Nanking, would it?

Tom


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## Britney Spears (8 Jul 2005)

> It is called the 84mm HEDP (High Explosive, Dual Purpose) round for the Carl-G; and it can blast a huge hole in a wall when set for "instantanious" (to allow dynamic entry) or penetrate most standard construction and detonate inside the room when set for "delay" (if you are in a big hurry and just need to kill them all). It also will put most APC and below class vehicles out of action, and certainly "ring the bells" of any tanker who gets hit by one.



Yes, for getting inside a building from the outside,  but for inside  bigger buildings or in confined spaces the backblast on the Carl  would render it  useless(or at least not useable safely) right? I suppose the problem would also exist for shaped charges too... I think some testing and evaluation is in order.




> P.S., Britney, did you know the Winchester Model 1897 Shotgun also had a bayonet lug?



I was vaguely aware of it, and I had at one point considered purchasing one (well,a Chinese copy) for my personal collection,  but then again I never claimed to be an expert on WWI infantry weapons.....why do you ask?


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## Britney Spears (8 Jul 2005)

Simon Door Breaching Rifle Grenade












Now, I had written up a lengthy post speculating on how such a device might be adapted to make holes in walls, but since I've never even seen this thing in real life, I would be just talking out of my hat, so I won't bore you with speculation. Instead I shall solicite ideas from the audience.


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## TCBF (8 Jul 2005)

I think we need tom develop thermobaric rounds for our 84mm, and - if possible - 40mm.  The 105mm tk gun as well.  With an option on 60 and 81mm mortars.  Good house clearers.

Tom


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## Britney Spears (8 Jul 2005)

<a href=http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazine/archive/itf_multipurpose_cartridges.html>40mm FAE is already in use.</a>

Since the Russians have been using man portable shoulder launched thermobaric weapons for years, I don't imagine putting one in an 84mm would be too much trouble. In fact I'd be suprised if noone has done so already.

Here's a Chinese thermobaric warhead and launcher from almost 10 years ago.






Thermobaric warhead for RPG-7






But we are straying off topic.....


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## TCBF (8 Jul 2005)

I want one.  

Tom


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## KevinB (8 Jul 2005)

Thermobaric rounds are an OPSEC issue I spoke to some US guys who use them - and they don't want it discussed in open.


I think the simon round has a lot of potential. - but for stand off breaching - the shotgun is for in your face entry.  Just consider the shotgun - the masterkey for interior doors etc.


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## paracowboy (8 Jul 2005)

shotgun good! Shotgun loud, go boom! Infantryman like shotgun.

The biggest problem with it, is the fact that we don't employ the MANY different types of ammo that has been developed for it: rounds for door take-downs, rounds to deliver tear-gas through walls/doors, bean-bag rounds for less-than-lethal, rounds for distance shots, flame-thrower rounds....etc, etc, ad nauseum. We haven't exploited the advantages properly.
Another big plus to the scattergun is the intimidation factor. There is so much myth and flat-out wrong thoughts surrounding it, that it terrifies the ignorant. There are reports drifting back form the ME, that terrorists fear the shotgun more than machineguns. Hollywood strikes again. And this time it works in our favour.

Me like shotgun!


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## a_majoor (8 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> I was vaguely aware of it, and I had at one point considered purchasing one (well,a Chinese copy) for my personal collection,   but then again I never claimed to be an expert on WWI infantry weapons.....why do you ask?



I thought I would combine your passion for scatterguns with your love of the bayonet


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## Britney Spears (8 Jul 2005)

Hmm, well it makes sense to me. That shotgun would take a while to load, and the ROF would be similar to that of a bolt action rifle. Since the M1 Garand made bayonets obsolete Previously you could lunge with a bayonet faster than your enemy could work the bolt and re-aim, but once he had a semi-auto , not so much.......


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## mudgunner49 (8 Jul 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> shotgun good! Shotgun loud, go boom! Infantryman like shotgun.
> 
> The biggest problem with it, is the fact that we don't employ the MANY different types of ammo that has been developed for it: rounds for door take-downs, rounds to deliver tear-gas through walls/doors, bean-bag rounds for less-than-lethal, rounds for distance shots, flame-thrower rounds....etc, etc, ad nauseum. We haven't exploited the advantages properly.
> Another big plus to the scattergun is the intimidation factor. There is so much myth and flat-out wrong thoughts surrounding it, that it terrifies the ignorant. There are reports drifting back form the ME, that terrorists fear the shotgun more than machineguns. Hollywood strikes again. And this time it works in our favour.
> ...



One of the biggest problems with this theory is the fact that when you need one type of round you'll almost always have the wrong one loaded(time is money - don't waste my money!!!).  My take - cut it as short as possible, and issue it with a bag of LockBusters and use it as a substitute for the 11.5D's (save a ton of wear and tear on the ankles...)

But then, what do I know...


Blake


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## a_majoor (8 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Hmm, well it makes sense to me. That shotgun would take a while to load, and the ROF would be similar to that of a bolt action rifle. Since the M1 Garand made bayonets obsolete Previously you could lunge with a bayonet faster than your enemy could work the bolt and re-aim, but once he had a semi-auto , not so much.......



On the one hand, what you say is perfectly sensible, yet historically, the Germans were very fearfull of Marines armed with the "Trench Broom", and indeed, the Winchester Model 1897 soldiered on into the Viet Nam war, so obviously a lot of people believed the weapon is useful, and not just as a "master key".


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## paracowboy (8 Jul 2005)

mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> One of the biggest problems with this theory is the fact that when you need one type of round you'll almost always have the wrong one loaded(time is money - don't waste my money!!!).   My take - cut it as short as possible, and issue it with a bag of LockBusters and use it as a substitute for the 11.5D's (save a ton of wear and tear on the ankles...


naaah, keep a slug in the chamber, mix of slug 7 double-ought buck in the magazine. Any specialized rounds you may need, you can just jack the slide, pop that round in, and Robert is your mother's brother. Been doin' it for years huntin' and screwin' around. Sidesaddle on the gun holds 6 rounds, get a sling with loops for as many other rounds as you're likely to need. Now, this being said, I'm not advocating trading rifles for scatterguns, but the shotgun is an incredibly diverse and useful implement. One per section, carried with a carbine, and you're away. (Also an AR-10T per section, but that's a different conversation.)


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## KevinB (8 Jul 2005)

I'm with mudgunner49 on the shotgun issue.


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## TCBF (8 Jul 2005)

Interestingly, when us North Americans think shotgun, we think mostly twelve guage (unless we happen to have single tube multi-grand costing competition trap guns - not your average fowling piece).  The Comrades are making AK type security guns in .410 Guage, and some Yanks have been experimenting with a whole range of home brewed  ammo for it.  Probably another Hobby/Craze/Fad of guys in their garages with a Dillon or MEC  press trying to turn plastic high brass .410 hulls into an urban .416 Rigby.

Lots of fun, but filling no particular role, until the 'operators' start using them.  That's when the fashion show REALLY  begins.

Tom


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## Kal (8 Jul 2005)

What is the prescribed method of entry once an entry way is breached?  Are DDs's tossed in and then the team makes entry?  Also, what is the opinion of more 'dynamic' entries such as a member being trained in explosive entry techniques and using the shotgun and ram for weaker interior doors or when the explosive entry is undesirable or has failed?


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## paracowboy (8 Jul 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> What is the prescribed method of entry once an entry way is breached?


go in really fast.



> Are DDs's tossed in and then the team makes entry?


  if you have any. I never have. 



> Also, what is the opinion of more 'dynamic' entries such as a member being trained in explosive entry techniques and using the shotgun and ram for weaker interior doors or when the explosive entry is undesirable or has failed?


  laddie, it's all based on what you have, who you have, what the building's made out of, and whether or not you have friendlies/innocents inside. Taking a building sucks. Nuthin' but variables, and the advantage always lies with the defender. I prefer "Nuke and by-pass". Much easier.


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## Kal (8 Jul 2005)

Perhaps I wasn't more precise in my questioning.   Are there 031 (conventional) operators formally trained by the CF in explosive entry techniques, if not, what is the opinion, by all ranks, on having them?   Or is it seen as being too specialized?   What are the entry tools issued for such tasks while in theatre?   

Not that I have been doing any type of dynamic entries, but wouldn't employing some type of distraction device for entries that haven't been breached by explosive means be essential to delay any 'fatal funnel'?   Just generally speaking, because as paracowboy said, all the variables that I won't get into.


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## paracowboy (8 Jul 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> Are there 031 (conventional) operators formally trained by the CF in explosive entry techniques, if not, what is the opinion, by all ranks, on having them?


I know of several in 3 RCR who've taken the US Army MLCCCC, which teaches explosive entry techniques. But, I'm unaware of any such course here.


> What are the entry tools issued for such tasks while in theatre?


 big heavy things to hit doors with. Stuff that blows up. Stuff that chops things down. I'd rather not tell any bad guys out there what we use to get at them. I'm funny that way.


> wouldn't employing some type of distraction device for entries that haven't been breached by explosive means be essential to delay any 'fatal funnel'?


 you'd think so, wouldn't you? Maybe if we stuck the MND as #1 in a stack, he'd get the hint.


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## Kal (8 Jul 2005)

I got ya' on the OPSEC stuff.  As to those members of 3 RCR, are their skills used while in theatre, if I'm still toeing the line with that question, it's withdrawn.  So I take it that sadly DD's aren't regularly used while on ops...


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## Blackhorse7 (8 Jul 2005)

No better tool for clearing a room in a built up area fight.  Other than a frag.


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## paracowboy (8 Jul 2005)

actually, I just remembered that there is a course (fairly new) that teaches the use of charges. I can't recall the name off-hand. I apologize for the APS moment.



> As to those members of 3 RCR, are their skills used while in theatre


well, all skills are used to some extent, but when I was there, we didn't blow any doors. In fact, I cleverly breached one compound by brilliantly allowing two 9 year old little girls to run past me, duck under my arms and between my legs, and in through the gate. In their panic to escape my lumbering, hippo-like arse, they left the gate open and I placed my foot into the jamb, like a door-to-door salesman. So, I breached the gate through incompetence.   :   meh, whatayagonnado?



> So I take it that sadly DD's aren't regularly used while on ops...


the only distraction device I've ever had available were my puppy-like eyes, or spitting some Skoal into somebody's face.


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## 392 (8 Jul 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> Are there 031 (conventional) operators formally trained by the CF in explosive entry techniques,



I would hazard to say they're called 043's  

Actually we had a couple 3RCR fellas on an explosive entry range back in April to see what our techniques / SOP's were so that they could at least be on the same page as us when it comes to explosive entry. Unfortunately, 031's and 043's don't get to work together enough on a regular basis here in Pet, it seems only when a tour or major ex is coming up do we get together and hash things out. 

BTW, as was mentioned a page or so back, we don't like to use doors - generally we make our own.....


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## a_majoor (8 Jul 2005)

One possible answer to the door/window thing is to breach it from a distance with a HEDP or a rifle grenade as illustrated a few posts ago. The explosion has the potential of destroying or triggering any booby traps and IEDs placed on or near the door/window, and has a fair chance of killing or at least mind f*****g the bad guys set there to cover the entryway.

Like every other technique, I would not be making a habit of doing this all the time (someone is bound to figure it out sooner or later), but save it for special occasions.


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## Kal (9 Jul 2005)

Thinking more in depth about it now, there really are too many variables when operating in a military setting.  I'm sure more and better training will come out of recent and future operational experiences.  There cannot be any one way for doing all types of missions that require a dynamic entry, and I see why more than a handful of options are needed when conducting such tasks.  However, in my very limited experience, although I'm sure many members would agree, that regardless of the mission, whether it be arrests, raids, or just plain house cleaning, some sort of DD's must be made available.  I find it alarming that such tools aren't readily available, but I hope they will be in the near future before we lose a life over it.


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## TCBF (9 Jul 2005)

Thinking out of the box a bit, I imagine our main armament training ammo - 105mm "cement heads" would make a good door kicker.  If all of the MGS end up on blocks due to a factory recall, I think an 84mm blue job would work just fine.  Either fire the prac round into the door, or set up an 84mm off route mine (OOPS! It is NOT a mine...it is NOT a mine..) a foot from the door and face it AWAY from the door.  an alternate form of templating would be needed in this case.  Might not work with first world steel doors.  Try it and see.

Tom


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## 392 (9 Jul 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> ...or set up an 84mm off route mine (OOPS! It is NOT a mine...it is NOT a mine..) a foot from the door and face it AWAY from the door.



It *IS* a mine....it *IS* a mine  Even says so on the box   ;D

Linky


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## TCBF (9 Jul 2005)

I stand corrected.

 ;D

Back to shotguns

One advantage is in the templating department - you can drop a target and not worry about long range background collateral damage.  

But I would not trade a C7/C8 for one.  

Tom


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## paracowboy (9 Jul 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> But I would not trade a C7/C8 for one.


no, but I really liked having one along with a C8. I guess what I really need is a gun caddy. (And while we're at it, a Sherpa. Also a donkey, but I digress...)


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## KevinB (9 Jul 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Back to shotguns
> 
> One advantage is in the templating department - you can drop a target and not worry about long range background collateral damage.
> 
> ...



Dont get too wrapped up in the "advantage" of the shotgun in that respect -- look at the Jacobs inquiry...
 Rifle/Carbine and pistol proved precision - shotguns do not.


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## a_majoor (9 Jul 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> no, but I really liked having one along with a C8. I guess what I really need is a gun caddy. (And while we're at it, a Sherpa. Also a donkey, but I digress...)



You also need the Marines "Small Wars Manual", which has a chapter on loading a donley.   Maybe Infanteer will lend you his copy.


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## mudgunner49 (9 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I'm with mudgunner49 on the shotgun issue.



Nice to have somebody watchin' my "6" - but don't get me wrong... for layin' into a flight of Canada's there's nothing like a 3.5" 12 gauge loaded with an ounce and seven-eighths of steel #2's, except maybe lead - ah lead... the good old days (gazing fondly into the sky and dreaming about the coming fall and ropes of geese honking across the Norther Ontario sky...).


Blake
(who thinks nothing is better than autumn...)


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## TCBF (10 Jul 2005)

"Also a donkey"

- as a 011 Crewman, I try to never mix business with my social life.

 ;D

- Was out on a civ range near Cornwallis in 85/86 and saw Tracey S__pera fire a five shot 4" group at 100 yards firing slugs from one of those Itallian Benelli Pump/Semi combo guns.  Better than most 'cruits did with an FN C1A1.

Tom


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## Blackhorse7 (10 Jul 2005)

All good point, but in regards to the accuracy thing, again, it comes down to right tool for the right job.  The RCMP have now gone to a tactical "OO" round that produces a tighter shot pattern at 25 yards.  In a FIBUA situation, you are not likely to encounter ranges that far, so as long as you are on target, it's going down.  And need be, a shotgun has the capability of multi-round usage (ie slugs for long range, SSG for room clearing, HAT rounds for breaching doors).  Awfully versatile to discount...


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## TCBF (10 Jul 2005)

Question:  since a lot of bad guys today are wearing body armour, I would assume a reasonably ogived 7.62mm or 5.56mm round would be a better penetrator than a round hardened lead .33 cal ball.

I assume the Wichester Ranger LE  .223 Rem softpoints (that comes in those in those pretty 20-cartridge boxes) would still defeat soft body armour at most 'domestic' ranges.  So, is the 00 Buck an officer confidence issue or an urban templting issue?

Tom


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Jul 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Question:   since a lot of bad guys today are wearing body armour, I would assume a reasonably ogived 7.62mm or 5.56mm round would be a better penetrator than a round hardened lead .33 cal ball.
> 
> I assume the Wichester Ranger LE   .223 Rem softpoints (that comes in those in those pretty 20-cartridge boxes) would still defeat soft body armour at most 'domestic' ranges.
> Tom



So would the stuff with the tips painted black.


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## Blackhorse7 (10 Jul 2005)

Urban issue thing, definately.  Why do you think I carry a 9 and not a 45?  The RCMP is scared about over-penetration.  But that being said, you get hit with a chest full of buckshot, and regardless of body armour (at room clearing distance), I defy you to stay standing on your feet, in the fight.  And not to discount accurate fire, but if a badger is wearing body armour, it takes less accuracy to put a round of SSG in the general area of his head than it does a 5.56.  That is of course IF you are not worried about friendly casualties in the immediate vicinity.  But as I said, some of the new tactical SSG loads put a much tighter shot pattern onto a target that before.  At 25 yards, all pellets on target with a good, aimed centre mass shot.  At closer range, say 10 to 15 yards (pretty big room), that badger is going down.


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## KevinB (10 Jul 2005)

Softpoint rifle will rip thru soft armour.   There is a lot of speculation as to why agencies issue softpoint when there are many more effective rounds to be had -- C77 ball is WAY more terminally effective.  Secondly hitting someone with a 12ga if he is wearing hard armour is not going to do much - if he is set the plate will disperce the force - Having seen Richard Davis of Second Chance do his 5 rds of 7.62mm into the chest at point blank - I think the NSR routine of 10+ rounds shoudl break up a plate and hopefully occupy him with a #3 or #4 pops him in the mellon.

 With the shotgun - I know many decision to keep it have been based upon two things 1) Cost of procuring new patrol rifle/carbines is beyond the departments budget 2) Political Sensibilities - many administrators do not want their officers running around with black "Army" guns for percieved public outrage.


Having some experience with Shotguns I have attempted to use in a training dynamic entry situation -- I could not engage multiple targets nearly as quickly as I could with carbine, shooting 1 rd 12ga. "Tactical" (low recoil) 00buck versus 2rds / target of 5.56mm - wearing my armour and helmet.   At 5'11" and 200lbs - plus 50lbs of kit I am guessing that anyone of smaller statue woudl have a devil of a time.


Secondly shooting to stop - I am putting rounds into the target until it starts to go down and is no longer a threat - it is relatively easy to put 5 rds into a tgt then continue with a 5.56mm carbine - wheras a few rounds of 12ga. and you've gone thru half your mag (I am utilizing a 14" 870 for this discussion).


Don't get me wrong I like shotguns but I feel people pick them for very ill informed choices based on what they think they can do - rather than the proper niche.   I'd much rather see the team medic carry it as a DB (designated breacher) specifically loaded with the ceramic shotlock breaching rounds.   Its much easier to three shot a door than attempt to halligan or sledge the door (but still keep those tools in the tool box...)

Menacing - yes   Practical - not really.


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## TCBF (10 Jul 2005)

"Why do you think I carry a 9 and not a 45? "

- Because they told you to?  ;D

- Not wanting to start a math-heavy/KE/penetration/etc thread, i don't think it makes a difference what you carry as far as calibre goes, as long as your loads are selected for whatever performance envelope of penetration/expansion/other the powers that be have mandated.  The calibre selection is probably based on the selection of pistols avail with hi-cap double stack mags in a reasonable and TRAINABLE size.  Some consider .45/10mm/etc too much to train with.  Many disagree, but, in any case, 9mm/.40 S&W seem to be good calibres.  You may have issues with cartridge selection, or some of your peers may.

I think an adequate pistol/calibre/cartridge combo can only be effective with GOOD training, and that takes time and money.  Which they would rather spend on lawyers after the fact.

As to scatterguns - at the ranges used - the LOOK of a gun can end the confrontation.  12 bore has a nice BIG hole.  Easy for meth-heads to wrap their brain stem around.  Speak softly and carry a scattergun with a big hole.

Tom


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## Blackhorse7 (10 Jul 2005)

True, this is not about pistols, it's about shotguns.  I *ALWAYS* take a shotgun on search warrants, no exceptions.  It has gained me a rep, but I have had rats tell me straight out, they damn near shit their pants when they saw that.  It was like looking into their own grave.  If that kind of influence gets me or you home alive, then it's worth it.


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## TCBF (10 Jul 2005)

Agreed.  In your business, better to scare them into co-operation with a big hole, than kill them with a small one.

Works with tanks, too. ;D

Tom


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## bossi (10 Jul 2005)

(catching up) - Thanks for the reminder about "Trench Broom"
(although "The Equalizer" always worked for me, as far as historic references ...)

And, speaking of bayonet lugs ... my fav, the Mossberg 590, used to have it (and a laser designator ... hence it became known as "The Intimidator" - works real well when used to calm down rioting inmates ...)


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## mudgunner49 (10 Jul 2005)

Blackhorse7 said:
			
		

> True, this is not about pistols, it's about shotguns.   I *ALWAYS* take a shotgun on search warrants, no exceptions.   It has gained me a rep, but I have had rats tell me straight out, they darn near crap their pants when they saw that.   It was like looking into their own grave.   If that kind of influence gets me or you home alive, then it's worth it.



Absolutely - I concur with your situation, however LE & mil are two different applications for the weapon system...  I also have used the cavervous muzzle to "calm the waters" and for this it works as advertised!! 


Blake


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## Blackhorse7 (10 Jul 2005)

But that's my whole point.  I think for FIBUA fighting, the shotgun can play a valuable role.  See previous comments about it's versatility and power.


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## KevinB (10 Jul 2005)

Blackhorse we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 CQB is about precision killing gone are the days that dinosaurs cleared rooms by spraying.  You simply will not be able to enage multiple targets fast enough with a shotty that you could with a carbine.  And shotgun mag capavity is dreadful and reloading is awkward nto to mention ammo carriage is not ideal - the sidesaddles get loose and drop rounds while the gun is being used in a physical manner and a bandolier sling adds a dreadful amount of weight and encumbersome ness that is not needed.

 When you come to a locked door on a dynamic - you need to either to have the MOE open his bag (taking you down one shooter) and do a mechanical breach - or have the shotgun ready to breach - and the breaching rounds are not something you'd want to shoot people with.  

I'd invite people to have a good read of this topic over a lightfighter.

http://lightfighter.net/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/4991085331


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## a_majoor (10 Jul 2005)

Off on a tangent here, but some of the comments about the variety of loads avaiable for a shotgun started me thinking.

I recall there was an "over/under" combination of the M-16 and some sort of 12 gauge shotgun during the Viet Nam war, and some posters have mentioned a more modern version. It seems to me that one person in the entry team could be issued with that to do the "master key" thing, but still have the C-7 to deal with things once inside. The same weapon combination would be able to fire "beanbag" rounds to knock down people when the ROEs call for less than leathal force, and of course there are the various slugs, 00 Magnum shots and so on for special occasions. (The troop would be issued and load whatever is appropriate before hand, soldiers preparing for dynamic entry would not be loading "beanbags" into the 12 gauge).

As for the size and weight, we accept the M-203 40mm grenade launcher as a neccesary piece of kit despite the size and weight (not to mention the size and weight of the ammunition), so the over/under combination shouldn't be considered too differently. Like the M-203 itself, the shotgun half can stay in the CQ lockup if the situation or ROEs don't call for it, ready to be bolted back on when required.


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## paracowboy (10 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> CQB is about precision killing gone are the days that dinosaurs cleared rooms by spraying.   You simply will not be able to enage multiple targets fast enough with a shotty that you could with a carbine.   And shotgun mag capavity is dreadful and reloading is awkward nto to mention ammo carriage is not ideal - the sidesaddles get loose and drop rounds while the gun is being used in a physical manner and a bandolier sling adds a dreadful amount of weight and encumbersome ness that is not needed.
> 
> When you come to a locked door on a dynamic - you need to either to have the MOE open his bag (taking you down one shooter) and do a mechanical breach - or have the shotgun ready to breach - and the breaching rounds are not something you'd want to shoot people with.


stop using logic to eliminate my perfectly sound emotional arguments!

If we don't go with the "over-under master-key concept" we can still go with having a scattergun on a single-point sling. When the breacher fires his three rounds, and steps out of the way of the rest of the stack, he simply allows the shotgun to drop, and transitions to either a carbine, or pistol. It may be a bit of a pain, though, as it's gonna bang against his leg while moving through the building.

Thoughts?


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## KevinB (11 Jul 2005)

The M203 is a good system - however it is being eclipsed by more modern designes - and Deimaco's M203A1 mount is an abortion if I have ever seen one - anyone wonder why the Ski tems uses Colt M203's with KAC QD mounts...

 However in the CQB environement IF I can keep the grenadiers out of the house (at least clearing I will) even on the C8SFW the M203 is awkward to manuever in close shooting.

 The Masterkey set up is another cumbersome item - however unlike the M203 where no effective (key being effective) standalone setup existis for it - the breaching shotgun is an excellent stand alone system.

 I have used the KAC Masterkey on a M4A1 and I must say I found it extremely wanting - awkward and tough to aim at a lock (I have several scars on my legs from Kevin's learning the hard way with shooting doors) - the offset for the barrel makes shooting close in tgts very hard.   

The pictures Brit put up of the Mosberg/Serbi Super Shorty are an IDEAL breacher - that does not get carried away with any other role.

Less lethal: We where not allowed to use less lethal items in Afghanistan to do certain provision of the Rules of Landwarfare (or JAG interpretation of them) and the Chemical Weapon Provisions   :    - Unlike Canada where I support the use of less lethal methods - if some asshat overseas is acting up - he is getting a few 5.56mm rounds and the story is done.


Para - IF I get my shory breacher finished - youl be the first to see - it is a very similar setup - as soon as I can get the business to finish it - I will have a 7" 870 with pistol grip (registered as a pistol) with 3+1 capacity with 2" breaching rounds - or 2+1 with 2 3/4 shells.
 You can put a single point on it - or tuck under the cumberbund of a RAV (or similar vest)


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## paracowboy (11 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> and Deimaco's M203A1 mount is an abortion if I have ever seen one


A-friggin'-men! Stupid set-up, with a capital "dumb"! I liked the old one, hate this one. Hate it with the intensity of a billion burning stars.


> However in the CQB environement IF I can keep the grenadiers out of the house


 agreed. He opens the door for me, we (riflemen) go in. Once the place is cleared, he and the C9 gunners move to a position they can fire us (or another sect) into the next building, or provide cut-off. 


> You can put a single point on it - or tuck under the cumberbund of a RAV (or similar vest)


hmmm, dunno if I want to 'tuck' a shotgun barrel that's just had 3 rounds fired through it anywhere near to my genitals, tiny though they are.


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## KevinB (11 Jul 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> A-friggin'-men! Stupid set-up, with a capital "dumb"! I liked the old one, hate this one. Hate it with the intensity of a billion burning stars.


Nothing like adding 2.5lbs more and a 2" drop for NO reasons (other than BS)



> agreed. He opens the door for me, we (riflemen) go in. Once the place is cleared, he and the C9 gunners move to a position they can fire us (or another sect) into the next building, or provide cut-off. hmmm, dunno if I want to 'tuck' a shotgun barrel that's just had 3 rounds fired through it anywhere near to my genitals, tiny though they are.



 I was thinking more under arm barrel at waist level at most. - maybe a clip on the vest?  Maybe we should run DLR 5-5   ;D


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## Britney Spears (11 Jul 2005)

> hmmm, dunno if I want to 'tuck' a shotgun barrel that's just had 3 rounds fired through it anywhere near to my genitals, tiny though they are.



I suppose since the weapon is tiny, you can use the drop leg holster that it comes with...

Wait, we are still talking about the "tiny" shotgun, right?  ???


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## paracowboy (11 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Wait, we are still talking about the "tiny" shotgun, right?   ???


well, if that's what the kids are callin' it these days...


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## a_majoor (11 Jul 2005)

I think I will take my chances with an "over/under" setup rather than a shotgun thumping against my leg, or giving me a nice warm glow next to the family jewels!


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## mudgunner49 (11 Jul 2005)

C'mon guys - 3 rounds just warms it up to the point where it's "comfy"...


Blake


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## TCBF (11 Jul 2005)

At the risk of contributing to the incipient "long cold rolled/hammer forged steel barrel substitutung for the short, much maligned biological one" (guilty, but aren't we all?), I will add:

"Happiness is a warm gun" - Lennon (Inspired by a gun magazine cover).

So, do we need  niche 12 guage - or 10, or whatever - scattergunz in the CF to open doors, or could something else we carry be adapted for that purpose?  Seems to me, everybody is carrying enough, now.  

Tom


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## KevinB (11 Jul 2005)

We already have 870's as breaching shotguns - they are just to big - the fixed stock's LOP is too long for troops in body armour.  Acquiring shoter barrels - and ideally a dedicated short shotgun woudl be a step forward.


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## TCBF (11 Jul 2005)

There are bow-koo after market accessories for the 870.  We should be able to trick it up with a cut barrel and a pistol grip or a folding stock.  They don't all need to be ready to shoot trap off the fantail at a moment's notice.  

Tom


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## Slim (13 Jul 2005)

at the shooting school that Glock17 and I run we use two different shotguns. The Winchester defender and the Rem870.

We have taken off the factory stock and forestock and replaced them with folding stocks, pistol grips and neoprene forstocks.

We have found that the weapons, which were so long and rather cumbersom to go through doors with, are now quite manageable and also appropriate for passenger seats in vehicles as well.

Also both are easy to strip and clean.

Having personally owned a Defender at one time I will say that it keeps going regardless of the dirt which may have collected inside it.

Both great guns!

Slim


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## TCBF (14 Jul 2005)

When I was A MCpl in Cornwallis, I shot Trap at the Base Club, initialy bwith a Defender.  The old guys (Base CWO, CSMs etc) said it was too loud, so I bought an IGA Gauco through the mail.  I eventually sold`the Defender, the Mossy 500, and some CIL pump 12.  

Tom


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## scm77 (19 Jul 2005)

*When Seconds Count â â€ Idaho Integrated Breaching Shotgun*

Sometimes, seconds can mean the difference between life and death, between mission success and failure. When facing unknown dangers lurking beyond a locked door, police officers or military personnel may need to get in fast without relinquishing control of the situation or their weapons.

INEEL engineers designed the Integrated Breaching Shotgun for use in executing forced entries through doors.

Recently, a federal law enforcement agency approached the laboratory to help solve a problem facing its agents. The agency wanted INEEL engineers to design a better firearm for use in executing forced entries through doors. A traditional entry method requires a shotgun to breach doors. In the standard process, the shooter fires at the door to destroy the hinges or the lock and then either has to switch from the shotgun to an assault rifle or remove himself from the line of fire to allow others to proceed through the door. Either way, the loss of precious seconds could result in undesirable consequences.

A request for a multiple-shot shotgun bolted on to an assault rifle came through the Department of Energy Office of Intelligence's Applied Technology Program -- a program within DOE that matches technology needs throughout the federal arena to researchers within the national laboratory system. This client hoped to find a design that would allow improved entry times in life-threatening situations and lower risks to its agents.

Steve Frickey, an advisory engineer in National Security's Nonproliferation organization, had encountered the same problem years earlier when he shot a very cumbersome and awkward weapon system used by the military. Frickey had contemplated how to improve the design of an assault rifle and shotgun used together.

â Å“It seemed obvious to me that there was a better way to do it,â ? he said. â Å“When I saw the request for such a weapon, it seemed an opportune marriage of an idea with a need.â ?

Frickey prepared and submitted the original proposal that was accepted.

That's when Mike Occhionero, the INEEL contact for the ATP got involved. Once the customer was convinced the INEEL had the experts, ideas and commitment required to solve the problem, Occhionero went to work establishing the requirements and putting together a project team.

David Crandall and Rich Watson from the National Security's Special Programs group took the requirements and began work on the Idaho Integrated Breaching Shotgun. Frickey continued in an advisory role.

â Å“Because the customer had more experience than we did in the actual application, we involved them in every step of the design process,â ? said Occhionero.

Crandall, Watson and Frickey accepted the challenge of designing the special compact weapon and integrating it with the operator's primary weapon. Crandall said the importance of the combined weapon system was critical as repositioning or switching guns wastes too much time in breaching situations.

â Å“Seconds or even parts of seconds can mean all the difference,â ? said Crandall.

With no firearm existing to do the job, the team's solution was to redesign the traditional 12-gauge pump shotgun and make it work differently.

Standard shotguns cycle cartridges by moving the bolt to the rear. In the new design, the bolt is held stationary and the receiver and barrel move forward, allowing the receiver to be shortened and the barrel to be lengthened. Keeping the barrel longer provides more time for the powder to burn and more energy to be applied, making the shotgun more effective. The Idaho Integrated Breaching Shotgun is three inches shorter overall while incorporating an effective barrel twice as long as anything else currently available.

The Idaho Integrated Breaching Shotgun also incorporates a replaceable box magazine making it easier to rapidly reload and select alternate munitions, such as less-than-lethal rounds.

Watson says creating an entirely new firearm in about four months for very little money was extraordinary. Occhionero echoes that feeling.

â Å“Typically, a gun design program is a multiyear, multimillion dollar proposition,â ? Occhionero said. By using many already existing components in an innovative way, the team was able to design the prototype in a little over two months. Achieving a functional prototype in such a short time was due, in part, to the expertise of machinists Jimmy Johnson and Travis Brown.

The team says the INEEL's security force also played a major part in the success of the project.

â Å“You can't just bring a federal agency's assault rifle to work,â ? Occhionero said. â Å“We had to address a lot of paper work and policy issues before we could bring the gun onto the INEEL for non-security purposes. Our security force, along with DOE, worked those issues for us and made it possible.â ?

Occhionero reports that the client was impressed with the gun during the recent demonstration. If the team obtains additional funding, it will pursue ways to decrease the weight and improve other ergonomic factors.

Because of the ingenuity in the design, the developers are applying for five patents and an R&D 100 award, and they are considering further enhancements to the system.

Discussions are already underway with a gun manufacturer interested in producing and marketing the integrated breaching shotgun.

According to Watson, being involved in the project was even more exciting due to one fact, â Å“It was cool to work with guns and get paid for it!â ?





http://www.inl.gov/featurestories/2003-12-22.shtml
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Anybody heard about/have more info about this? KevinB I'm looking in your direction.


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## a_majoor (22 Jul 2005)

Hey, this set-up is almost exactly like I was thinking in this post:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/20035/post-237830.html#msg237830

The only thing I see "wrong" with this idea is the rather awkward box magazine on the "under" part. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you only need 3 X breaching rounds to take out a door? Even if there are excellent reasons to carry many more rounds than the 3 X I am guessing about, wouldn't it make more sense to have a "snail drum" magazine to reduce the size of this thing?

Just my .02 Euros


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2005)

IF you actually want a shotgun mounted (which having used one I feel is a BAD idea) you want the smallest and lightest one you can.


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## Bartok5 (22 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> IF you actually want a shotgun mounted (which having used one I feel is a BAD idea) you want the smallest and lightest one you can.



Amen to that.  The "gadget guys" would have us hang all sorts of crap-tastic shite off our our service weapons.  I call bull-crap.  Need a shotgun for specific applications?  Fine - do your mission analysis and combat estimate, and then task someone to carry a shotgun for that particular phase (eg. breaching) of the operation.  Do I or anyone else need to be toting around that extra useless weight the other 99% of the time where it is of zero value?  I don't think so.....   :   

Current U.S. Army experiments notwithstanding, there are valid reasons why we employ a rifle/carbine where a rifle/carbine is warranted, and we use a separate shotgun for the limited applications where it is the appropriate tool for the job.  Why the heck would I want to lug around a shotgun attached as dead-weight to my carbine (in whatever form), when I need a quick-handling firearm to do the buisness?

Utter madness.....  But that's just plain old practical me.....


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2005)

Mark C said:
			
		

> But that's just plain old practical me.....



 If it was not for you Sir- sometimes I think I might have carried the kitchen sink...  I save the email you sent when I fist got to Afghan and still give it a lot of thought.


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