# Hitchens defends the war in Iraq



## mdh (30 Aug 2005)

I thought this was an excellent piece by Christopher Hitchens on the war in Iraq

mdh



> A War to Be Proud Of
> From the September 5 / September 12, 2005 issue: The case for overthrowing Saddam was unimpeachable. Why, then, is the administration tongue-tied?
> by Christopher Hitchens
> 09/05/2005, Volume 010, Issue 47
> ...


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## Gunnerlove (30 Aug 2005)

"Coexistence with aggressive regimes or expansionist, theocratic, and totalitarian ideologies is not in fact possible. One should welcome this conclusion for the additional reason that such coexistence is not desirable, either."


Pot meet kettle. 

"They" can spin it all "you" want but they invaded a sovereign country to remove nonexistent NBCW capabilities, oops. 


Flame on


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## Cdn Blackshirt (1 Sep 2005)

Gunnerlove said:
			
		

> "Coexistence with aggressive regimes or expansionist, theocratic, and totalitarian ideologies is not in fact possible. One should welcome this conclusion for the additional reason that such coexistence is not desirable, either."
> 
> 
> Pot meet kettle.
> ...



Wow, good comeback.....



Matthew.   :


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## DG-41 (1 Sep 2005)

> "They" can spin it all "you" want but they invaded a sovereign country to remove nonexistent NBCW capabilities, oops.



Bingo. How to hit the nail squarely on the head.

I'm very proud of our govenrment's ability to tell the difference between justified and unjustifed American military action. So far, we're batting 1000.

DG


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## mdh (1 Sep 2005)

> "They" can spin it all "you" want but they invaded a sovereign country to remove nonexistent NBCW capabilities, oops.



The Kurds have a different assessment of Saddam's NBCW capabilities.

mdh


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## Infanteer (1 Sep 2005)

....here we go again.... :boring:


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## 54/102 CEF (1 Sep 2005)

"They" can spin it all "you" want but they invaded a sovereign country to remove nonexistent NBCW capabilities, oops. 

..........................

These discussions are good but could be much better with a little background reading by all who are interested

The CDS spoke in his intro brief to many about snakes and old think - NATO vs. the Russian Hordes and that we would be going after snakes, scumbags et al

The CDS is a very big fan of the book (See his his library card below) called "The Pentagon's New Map" graphics in the book are very close to those in the CDS`s online PowerPoint notes

I would like invite you all to check out the fol articles and links - don't be shy and think this is just for the high ups and the officers.

1. 2003 Esquire Article by Thomas Barnett on his book http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/published/pentagonsnewmap.htm

2. Discussion of why he wrote the book - http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people5/Barnett/barnett-con0.html and Real Player Video Link http://webcast.ucsd.edu:8080/ramgen/UCSD_TV/9511.rm

3. 90 min briefing Real Audio link (look for the RED ARROW) http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=barnett

4. HIs website http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/

His idea - increase east west links to discredit one party states and generate more economic freedom in what he calls the gap - anywhere the governments do not changeover regularly.

You will end up wondering what our media is doing - we are not seeing the broad picture of failed or rogue states that ransack their countries, loot their treasuries, do not invest the money flows from the west in their regional economies and whip their people like beasts of burden.

This describes Iraq before the War - it had long ago given up the status of a sovereign state and assumed the mantle of Criminal state.

There should be no surprise among those handsitter countries who refused to assist in the disruption of the non functioning kleptocracym that their opinion is unwelcome. This pi$$e$ the Europeans off no end because as the Warsaw Pact has declined they are no longer the darling hosts to U$ forces - they are Donald Rumsfelds "Old Europe." 

Thomas Barnett proposes that there is no problem taking apart the failed state mafia - where the shift in large scale US thinking has to come is that they have to get it into their mind they will be expected to run these failed states - like Gen Eric Shinseki said - and got retired for saying it - for quite sometime after the end of open hostilities. ENDEX re-deployments are out and the Pentagon (when he wrote the book) hates htis state of affairs.

Read the article - it summarises the book

Watch the videos - you will learn a lot - listen to what he says about Killer Zarkawi if lots of countries come in who have no trouble with zapping Islamic freedom fighters

Don't take my word for it - the problem is MUCH BIGGER THAN IRAQ and Iraq's neighbours and he ends by saying get your Sub Sahara Dictionaires out because we are going there.

If you already know this stuff here is his travel brochure (pre IRAQ smackdown)

HANDICAPPING THE GAP

My list of real trouble for the world in the 1990s, today,
and tomorrow, starting in our own backyard:

1) HAITI; Efforts to build a nation in 1990s were disappointing "¢ We have been going into Haiti for about a century, and we will go back when boat people start flowing in during the next crisis-without fail.

2) COLOMBIA; Country is broken into several lawless chunks, with private armies, rebels, narcos, and legit government all working the place over. "¢ Drugs still flow. "¢ Ties between drug cartels and rebels grew over decade, and now we know of links to international terror, too. "¢ We get involved, keep promising more, and keep getting nowhere. Piecemeal, incremental approach is clearly not working.

3) BRAZIL AND ARGENTINA; Both on the bubble between the Gap and the Functioning Core. Both played the globalization game to hilt in nineties and both feel abused now. The danger of falling off the wagon and going self-destructively ¦; leftist or rightist is very real. "¢ No military threats to speak of, except against their own democracies (the return of the generals). "¢ South American alliance MERCOSUR tries to carve out its own reality while Washington pushes Free Trade of Americas, but we may have to settle for agreements with Chile or for pulling only Chile into bigger NAFTA. Will Brazil and Argentina force themselves to be left out and then resent it? "¢ Amazon a large ungovernable area for Brazil, plus all that environmental damage continues to pile up. Will the world eventually care enough to step in?

4) FORMER YUGOSLAVIA; For most of the past decade, served as shorthand for Europe's inability to get its act together even in its own backyard. "¢ Will be long-term baby-sitting job for the West.

5) CONGO AND RWANDA/BURUNDI; Two to three million dead in central Africa from all the fighting across the decade. How much worse can it get before we try to do something, anything? Three million more dead? "¢ Congo is a carrion state-not quite dead or alive, and everyone is feeding off it. "¢ And then there's AIDS.

6) ANGOLA ; Never really has solved its ongoing civil war (1.5 million dead in past quarter century). "¢ Basically at conflict with self since mid-seventies, when Portuguese "empire" fell. "¢ Life expectancy right now is under forty!

7) SOUTH AFRICA; The only functioning Core country in Africa, but it's on the bubble. Lots of concerns that South Africa is a gateway country for terror networks trying to access Core through back door. "¢ Endemic crime is biggest security threat. "¢ And then there's AIDS.

8 ISRAEL-PALESTINE; Terror will not abate-there is no next generation in the West Bank that wants anything but more violence. "¢ Wall going up right now will be the Berlin Wall of twenty-first century. Eventually, outside powers will end up providing security to keep the two sides apart (this divorce is going to be very painful). "¢ There is always the chance of somebody (Saddam in desperation?) trying to light up Israel with weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and triggering the counterpunch we all fear Israel is capable of.

9) SAUDI ARABIA; The let-them-eat-cake mentality of royal mafia will eventually trigger violent instability from within. "¢ Paying terrorists protection money to stay away will likewise eventually fail, so danger will come from outside, too. "¢ Huge young population with little prospects for future, and a ruling elite whose main source of income is a declining long-term asset. ¦; And yet the oil will matter to enough of the world far enough into the future that the United States will never let this place really tank, no matter what it takes.

10) IRAQ; Question of when and how, not if. "¢ Then there's the huge rehab job. We will have to build a security regime for the whole region.

11) SOMALIA; Chronic lack of governance. "¢ Chronic food problems. "¢ Chronic problem of terrorist-network infiltration. "¢ We went in with Marines and Special Forces and left disillusioned-a poor man's Vietnam for the 1990s. Will be hard-pressed not to return.

12) IRAN; Counterrevolution has already begun: This time the students want to throw the mullahs out. "¢ Iran wants to be friends with U.S., but resurgence of fundamentalists may be the price we pay to invade Iraq. "¢ The mullahs support terror, and their push for WMD is real: Does this make them inevitable target once Iraq and North Korea are settled?

13) AFGHANISTAN; Lawless, violent place even before the Taliban stepped onstage and started pulling it back toward seventh century (short trip) "¢ Government sold to Al Qaeda for pennies on the dollar. "¢ Big source of narcotics (heroin). "¢ Now U.S. stuck there for long haul, rooting out hardcore terrorists/rebels who've chosen to stay.

14) PAKISTAN; There is always the real danger of their having the bomb and using it out of weakness in conflict with India (very close call with December 13, 2001, New Delhi bombing). "¢ Out of fear that Pakistan may fall to radical Muslims, we end up backing hard-line military types we don't really trust. "¢ Clearly infested with Al Qaeda. "¢ Was on its way to being declared a rogue state by U.S. until September 11 forced us to cooperate again. Simply put, Pakistan doesn't seem to control much of its own territory.

15) NORTH KOREA; Marching toward WMD. "¢ Bizarre recent behavior of Pyongyang (admitting kidnappings, breaking promises on nukes, shipping weapons to places we disapprove of and getting caught, signing agreements with Japan that seem to signal new era, talking up new economic zone next to China) suggests it is intent (like some mental patient) on provoking crises. "¢ We live in fear of Kim's GÃƒÂ¶tterdämmerung scenario (he is nuts). "¢ Population deteriorating-how much more can they stand? "¢ After Iraq, may be next.

16) INDONESIA; Usual fears about breakup and "world's largest Muslim population." "¢ Casualty of Asian economic crisis (really got wiped out). "¢ Hot spot for terror networks, as we have discovered.

New/integrating members of Core I worry may be lost in coming years:

17) CHINA; Running lots of races against itself in terms of reducing the unprofitable state-run enterprises while not triggering too much unemployment, plus dealing with all that growth in energy demand and accompanying pollution, plus coming pension crisis as population ages. "¢ New generation of leaders looks suspiciously like unimaginative technocrats-big question if they are up to task. "¢ If none of those macro pressures trigger internal instability, there is always the fear that the Communist party won't go quietly into the night in terms of allowing more political freedoms and that at some point, economic freedom won't be enough for the masses. Right now the CCP is very corrupt and mostly a parasite on the country, but it still calls the big shots in Beijing. "¢ Army seems to be getting more disassociated from society and reality, focusing ever more myopically on countering U.S. threat to their ability to threaten Taiwan, which remains the one flash point that could matter. "¢ And then there's AIDS.

18) RUSSIA; Putin has long way to go in his dictatorship of the law; the mafia and robber barons still have too much power. "¢ Chechnya and the near-abroad in general will drag Moscow into violence, but it will be kept within the federation by and large. "¢ U.S. moving into Central Asia is a testy thing-a relationship that can sour if not handled just right. "¢ Russia has so many internal problems (financial weakness, environmental damage, et cetera) and depends too much on energy exports to feel safe (does bringing Iraq back online after invasion kill their golden goose?). "¢ And then there's AIDS.

19) INDIA; First, there's always the danger of nuking it out with Pakistan. "¢ Short of that, Kashmir pulls them into conflict with Pak, and that involves U.S. now in way it never did before due to war on terror. "¢ India is microcosm of globalization: the high tech, the massive poverty, the islands of development, the tensions between cultures/civilizations/religions/et cetera. ¦; It is too big to succeed, and too big to let fail. "¢ Wants to be big responsible military player in region, wants to be strong friend of U.S., and also wants desperately to catch up with China in development (the self-imposed pressure to succeed is enormous). "¢ And then there's AIDS.


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## 54/102 CEF (4 Sep 2005)

Check this out - a Global Wargame you can read all about - its from the CDS`s man shown above - so you 
can dig some good futurist stuff out here


Bed time reading is out

Read this entire site to see if you can out Rummy Rumsfeld!

http://newmapgame.com/home/

90 page final report - http://newmapgame.com/newport2005/NMG%20Final%20Report.pdf


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## SpruceTree (5 Sep 2005)

Juan Coles' response to the Hitchens article can be found here: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/09/05/hitchens/index.html
For balance...

54/102 CEF,

I went through the Global Wargame. Fascinating stuff. There is s a lot of futurist material out there but much of it tends to be written from one perspective such as military or economic without really considering the relationships it has with other elements or the bigger picture consquences of certain actions. One criticism that leaps to mind was that the excercise dealt with internal dissention among all powers' except the US. It seemed to take for granted that the US would remain able to act as a cohesive entity through-out. The reason I say this is that recent US history from 9/11 to Katrina has exposed and sharply polarised the major social and political divisions in US society. It's entirely possible that right or left-wing extremist groups could seek change through less-than-legal means. It would be interesting to see this excercise played out with that as a factor.

It also did not really deal with the issue of Peak Oil. Global economic stability and let alone growth require energy supply to meet demand. Because of the fuzziness around WHEN (google "Hirsh Report") the peak will happen, it is a wildcard.  Again, it would be interesting to see the Game played with the peak included.


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## 54/102 CEF (5 Sep 2005)

Glad someone read it  I have just become aware of this vein of strategic considerations and am a mere babe in the woods.

Oneward and upward!!!!


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## Cdn Blackshirt (17 Sep 2005)

Hitchens was on TVO's "Diplomatic Immunity" (Foreign Affairs Show for those who haven't seen it).  He was to have debated MP George Galloway from the UK again (they had a real blowout in New York on Wednesday of last week) but Mr Galloway no showed.  

Bottom Line:   Hitchens was interviewed by Steve Paikin (show host) and asked all the tough questions for 30 minutes non-stop and he makes the case for war.  No if's, and's, or but's about it.

In particular if you were/are against the war, look for a replay and videotape it at your leisure.  Obviously, if you feel confident you can discredit his arguments it should be enjoyable to watch one of the strong proponents come off looking like an ass(as in a donkey, not a bum)....

My prediction is that at the very least, you will come out of watching that interview with a more tempered view because quite frankly he brings knowledge and insights to the table that are not covered by regular media.

Bottom Line:  Set you VCR.  If you're interested in this debate, it will be the best 5 minutes you can spend....


Matthew.    

Link to Dimplomatic Immunity Homepage with reply time (Sunday afternoon at 3:00pm):
http://www.tvo.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Microsite/?di

For all those who are interested in foreign affairs, this is a great program.....


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## Infanteer (18 Sep 2005)

Interesting; although Hitchens uses too many buzzwords and fancy-terms for my liking.

I'm not going to argue Iraq, but I think there is two levels to look at when evaluating the utility of the invasion:

1) Whether Hussein's regime was worth taking out.

2) Whether the strategic outlook offered up an advantage for doing so at that particular point in time.


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## mdh (18 Sep 2005)

> Hitchens was on TVO's "Diplomatic Immunity" (Foreign Affairs Show for those who haven't seen it).   He was to have debated MP George Galloway from the UK again (they had a real blowout in New York on Wednesday of last week) but Mr Galloway no showed.




Cdn Blackshirt - not sure if you watched the whole New York debate but I agree with you - it was a classic affair - Galloway is a pretty impressive speaker (too much the evangelical style windbag for my liking but impressive nonethless) and Hitchens stayed true to form as the rationale dissembler -sticking in the odd vicious aside into both Galloway and the audience - if you're interested here's the link to watch the debate: 

http://www.hitchensweb.com/

For a more direct like to the video of the debate try this and scroll down to "useful links":

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1571538,00.html


cheers, mdh


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## Infanteer (18 Sep 2005)

Watched about 15 minutes of it - might get back to it later.

Hitchens overuses the word genocide.


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## a_majoor (19 Sep 2005)

On a similar vein:



> *Terrorism's New Operating System*
> Reforming our thinking.
> 
> Fears raised by Los Angeles's power grid failure earlier this week, this time because of an error in city utility work, was a stark reminder of how the national psyche has become attuned to the potential for terrorism to wreak havoc on our major population centers. The outage took place almost exactly 24 hours after a former southern California native turned al-Qaeda fanatic, Adam Gadahn, took to the airwaves and threatened Los Angelinos as the next victims of the terrorist group's wrath.
> ...


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## Cdn Blackshirt (20 Sep 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> Cdn Blackshirt - not sure if you watched the whole New York debate but I agree with you - it was a classic affair - Galloway is a pretty impressive speaker (too much the evangelical style windbag for my liking but impressive nonethless) and Hitchens stayed true to form as the rationale dissembler -sticking in the odd vicious aside into both Galloway and the audience - if you're interested here's the link to watch the debate:
> 
> http://www.hitchensweb.com/
> 
> ...



No, I only saw the snippets they played on Diplomatic Immunity.  

RE:  The link - I'll definitely check that out this evening.....very cool!



Matthew.


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