# Re: Out of the Box Thinking



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:21:21 -0700*
I believe there is merit in the point you have just raised.  Lets 
discuss possible ways that might make it palatable to our fellow 
Canadians:
    Reduce present payrates to the level of their after tax earnings.
    Realistic rank structures and ratios.  not the highest 
generalrivate ratio in NATO
    Integration of the Forces into a realistic Training program in 
partnership with private industry
These are just ideas, not hardcore beliefs.  Certainly worthy of debate 
along with the original topic.
However I would have to wonder, help from our learned peers in the 
Group is needed what percentage of our Defense budget is spent on 
salary?
Another valid question is" How do we decrease costs, while increasing 
capabilities". 
Next..........
chimo
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
I believe there is merit in the point 
you have just
raised. Lets discuss possible ways that might make it palatable to 
our
fellow Canadians:
 Reduce present 
payrates to the
level of their after tax earnings.
 Realistic rank 
structures and
ratios. not the highest generalrivate ratio in 
NATO
 Integration of the 
Forces into
a realistic Training program in partnership with private 
industry
These are just ideas, not hardcore 
beliefs.
Certainly worthy of debate along with the original topic.
However I would have to 
wonder,help from our
learned peers in the Group is needed what percentage of our Defense 
budget is
spent on salary?
Another valid question is" How do we 
decrease
costs, while increasing capabilities". 
Next..........
chimo
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Tue, 26 Sep 2000 13:18:55 -0400*
I think the pay/tax issue you mention is fairly accurate.
As an new infantry entry into the PRes I almost feel like my time is 
volunteered. I certainly didn‘t get into the reserve for the money! I 
got in because it appealed to my personal ideals. But, now that you 
mention it, I think a tax free incentive would really encourage 
prospective members and would impress the ****  out of current members, 
myself included. Why shouldn‘t "twice the citizen" get a break for doing 
his or her part.
I‘m only speaking as a lowly Private 1st class lone reservist here but 
as a 12 yr. veteran business owner I can tell you one thing for damn 
sure. Any time taxes are cut, or dropped, flocks will circle and show 
interest.
RobA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Gow
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:10 PM
  Subject: Out of the Box Thinking
  What would happen, say, if we looked at a specific problem, and saw 
that the CF was not a popular career choice, or the PRes was not 
popular, just in terms or renumeration?

  If that would be accurate, could we say that the effect of the income 
tax the members paid was infitesmal in the greater picture of things as 
a country?

  So what would be the difference if CF pay and ONLY for members, not 
civvy staff was non-taxable?

  Pay rates could be effectively reduced, costs might go down, 
attraction would go up.  Certainly.

  What else?

  Lets discuss this.
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
I thinkthe pay/tax issue you mention is 
fairly
accurate.
As an new infantry entry into the PRes I almost 
feel like
my time is volunteered. I certainly didn‘t get into the reserve for the 
money! I
got in because it appealed to my personal ideals. But, now that you 
mention it,
I think a tax free incentive would really encourage prospective members 
and
would impress the ****  out of current members, myself included. Why 
shouldn‘t
"twice the citizen" get a break for doing his or her part. 
I‘m only speaking as a lowly Private 1st class 
lone
reservist here but as a 12 yr. veteranbusiness owner I can tell 
you one
thing for damn sure. Any time taxes are cut, or dropped, flocks will 
circle and
show interest. 
RobA
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Gow 
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Monday, September 25, 
2000 10:10
  PM
  Subject: Out of the Box 
Thinking

  What would happen, say, if we looked at a specific 
problem,
  and saw that the CF was not a popular career choice, or the PRes was 
not
  popular, just in terms or renumeration?

  If that would be accurate, could we say that the 
effect of
  the income tax the members paid was infitesmal in the greater picture 
of
  things as a country?

  So what would be the difference if CF pay and 
ONLY for
  members, not civvy staff was non-taxable?

  Pay rates could be effectively reduced, costs 
might go down,
  attraction would go up. Certainly.

  What else?

  Lets discuss 
this.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:49:29 -0400*
Interesting that you should propose this approach. Over the years I have 
come in contact with assorted citizens with no personal connection to 
the CF that already thought that we paid no taxes. And is was a source 
of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a share of the 
‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was free, and 
that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.
While your proposal makes fiscal and internally logical sense, one 
aspect that should be considered is palatability to the public. In my 
experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more and paying 
taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how much of 
an overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the 
public purse for us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be 
preceded by an open and forceful sales pitch, the message would have to 
be on the street in clear before a few noisy detractors could taint it 
with mis-information.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Interesting that you should propose 
this approach.
Over the years I have come in contact with assorted citizens with no 
personal
connection to the CF that already thought that we paid no taxes. And is 
was a
source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a share of 
the
‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was free, and 
that
servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.
While your proposal makes fiscal and 
internally
logical sense, one aspect that should be considered is palatability to 
the
public. In my experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more 
and paying
taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how much of 
an
overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the public 
purse for
us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be preceded by an 
open and
forceful sales pitch, the message would have to be on the street in 
clear before
a few noisy detractors could taint it with mis-information. 
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History
Calendar
 http://regimentalrog 
ue.tripod.com/index.htm

--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:30:27 -0400*
Well, Mike, if thats what the people think, we wouln‘t exactly be 
disappointing them, would we?
The unmentioned rider to the idea would be that we could reasonably see 
the pay structure re-examined in the light of day years of frozen pay 
rates and absence of promotion opportunitycould be addressed in one fell 
swoop.
Members, of course, would retain the "right" to pay into CPP and UIC, as 
this would be a necessity to ever getting out and/or retiring.
I personally doubt that John Q. wants to pay Tommy more, even if Tommy 
then pays more taxes.  Its just an efficiency in getting the best bang 
for the buck, even if the thinking must be "out of the box"...
Regards
John
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mike Oleary
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 7:49 AM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box Thinking
  Interesting that you should propose this approach. Over the years I 
have come in contact with assorted citizens with no personal connection 
to the CF that already thought that we paid no taxes. And is was a 
source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a share of 
the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was free, 
and that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.
  While your proposal makes fiscal and internally logical sense, one 
aspect that should be considered is palatability to the public. In my 
experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more and paying 
taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how much of 
an overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the 
public purse for us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be 
preceded by an open and forceful sales pitch, the message would have to 
be on the street in clear before a few noisy detractors could taint it 
with mis-information.
  Mike
  The Regimental Rogue
  2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
   http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
Well, Mike, if thats what the people think, we 
wouln‘t exactly
be disappointing them, would we?
The unmentioned rider to the idea would be that we 
could
reasonably see the pay structure re-examined in the light of day years 
of
frozen pay rates and absence of promotion opportunitycould be addressed 
in one
fell swoop.
Members, of course, would retain the "right" to pay 
into CPP
and UIC, as this would be a necessity to ever getting out and/or
retiring.
I personally doubt that John Q. wants to pay Tommy 
more, even
if Tommy then pays more taxes. Its just an efficiency in getting 
the best
bang for the buck, even if the thinking must be "out of the 
box"...
Regards
John
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Mike
  Oleary 
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 
2000 7:49
  AM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box
Thinking

  Interesting that you should propose 
this
  approach. Over the years I have come in contact with assorted citizens 
with no
  personal connection to the CF that already thought that we paid no 
taxes. And
  is was a source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a 
share
  of the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was 
free, and
  that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.

  While your proposal makes fiscal and 
internally
  logical sense, one aspect that should be considered is palatability to 
the
  public. In my experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more 
and
  paying taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how 
much of
  an overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the 
public
  purse for us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be 
preceded by an
  open and forceful sales pitch, the message would have to be on the 
street in
  clear before a few noisy detractors could taint it with 
mis-information.


  Mike

  The Regimental Rogue
  2001 Canadian Military History
  Calendar
   http://regimentalrog 
ue.tripod.com/index.htm


--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steven R Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:51:28 -0400*
Interesting...tax free income at a lower rate.
We pay no taxes on our income, thus are entitled to no tax return on 
medical expenses, no tax return on charitable donations, no tax return 
personal business expenses, no child tax credit, no tax return on 
rental property, no tax return on rrsp contributions....
Does one propose we not pay EI too? Or CPP?
I know that this was only an idea, and a subject for discussion, but I 
see more loss than gain.
Steve
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mike Oleary
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 7:49 AM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box Thinking
  Interesting that you should propose this approach. Over the years I 
have come in contact with assorted citizens with no personal connection 
to the CF that already thought that we paid no taxes. And is was a 
source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a share of 
the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was free, 
and that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.
  While your proposal makes fiscal and internally logical sense, one 
aspect that should be considered is palatability to the public. In my 
experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more and paying 
taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how much of 
an overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the 
public purse for us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be 
preceded by an open and forceful sales pitch, the message would have to 
be on the street in clear before a few noisy detractors could taint it 
with mis-information.
  Mike
  The Regimental Rogue
  2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
   http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
Interesting...tax free income at a 
lower
rate.
We pay no taxes on our income, thus are 
entitled
tono tax return on medical 
expenses, no tax
return on charitable donations, no tax return personal business 
expenses, no
child tax credit, no tax return on rental property, no tax return on 
rrsp
contributions....
Does one propose we not pay EI too? Or
CPP?
I know that this was only an idea, and 
a subject
for discussion, but I see more loss than gain.
Steve
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Mike
  Oleary 
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 
2000 7:49
  AM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box
Thinking

  Interesting that you should propose 
this
  approach. Over the years I have come in contact with assorted citizens 
with no
  personal connection to the CF that already thought that we paid no 
taxes. And
  is was a source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a 
share
  of the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was 
free, and
  that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.

  While your proposal makes fiscal and 
internally
  logical sense, one aspect that should be considered is palatability to 
the
  public. In my experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more 
and
  paying taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how 
much of
  an overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the 
public
  purse for us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be 
preceded by an
  open and forceful sales pitch, the message would have to be on the 
street in
  clear before a few noisy detractors could taint it with 
mis-information.


  Mike

  The Regimental Rogue
  2001 Canadian Military History
  Calendar
   http://regimentalrog 
ue.tripod.com/index.htm


--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:11:32 -0400*
Hi Steve
Okay, questions for you...Canadian members of Parliament and Provincial 
Legislatures can and do have tax-free income...so why not other 
Canadians?
I obviously do not know who you are, but suggest that it is unlikely 
that you do not pay tax on income...service personnel are at least to 
some extent entitled to "free" medical care, though in truth in Canada, 
that is somewhat universal.  So, again, what‘s your point?  Those men 
and women that I speak of as service people are unlikely, under the 
present regime, able to make significant donations, charitable or 
otherwise.  Certainly something could be worked out, we are talking a 
major re-working of a system!  Rules can be changed.  The Child Tax 
Credit is a bit of a joke by juggling the tax system in general, it 
would not likely be missed, especially if a new pay system paid dollar 
for dollar on value received.
EI and CPP are separate and distinct issues from Income Tax everyone 
pays them and a service person has the "right" to them too.  What‘s your 
point?  Rental property?  Few junior ranks have that, even few senior 
ranks, outside of Colonels and Generals...but such income is and remains 
taxable, with appropriate write-offs as apply.  RRSP‘s?  Ask yourself 
how many members this applies to!  Not many!  And again, could the tax 
laws not be modified to suit?
A look into this could re-apportion our country‘s investment in the 
military its a concept of getting "the biggest bang for the bucK‘ a 
concept of re-routing dollars to be spent more effectively.
Think it through...if we are understaffed by 20, and 20 is the 
residual tax grab it is more! we can get around the manpower shortage 
with the same dollars.  Seeing as our understaffing is perhaps not quite 
that severe, we could make up equipment and ammunition shortages, on the 
same budget.
Its an old saw that says that we attack at first light so that when we 
fail, the day is not totally wasted, but a little "out of the box" 
thinking could pay some real rewards to both service people and the 
country.
Kick it around and let me know your thoughts.
John
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steven R Clark
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 8:51 PM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box Thinking
  Interesting...tax free income at a lower rate.
  We pay no taxes on our income, thus are entitled to no tax return on 
medical expenses, no tax return on charitable donations, no tax return 
personal business expenses, no child tax credit, no tax return on 
rental property, no tax return on rrsp contributions....
  Does one propose we not pay EI too? Or CPP?
  I know that this was only an idea, and a subject for discussion, but I 
see more loss than gain.
  Steve
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mike Oleary
    To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
    Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 7:49 AM
    Subject: Re: Out of the Box Thinking
    Interesting that you should propose this approach. Over the years I 
have come in contact with assorted citizens with no personal connection 
to the CF that already thought that we paid no taxes. And is was a 
source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a share of 
the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was free, 
and that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.
    While your proposal makes fiscal and internally logical sense, one 
aspect that should be considered is palatability to the public. In my 
experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more and paying 
taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how much of 
an overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the 
public purse for us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be 
preceded by an open and forceful sales pitch, the message would have to 
be on the street in clear before a few noisy detractors could taint it 
with mis-information.
    Mike
    The Regimental Rogue
    2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
     http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
Hi Steve
Okay, questions for you...Canadian members of 
Parliament and
Provincial Legislatures can and do have tax-free income...so why not 
other
Canadians?
I obviously do not know who you are, but suggest 
that it is
unlikely that you do not pay tax on income...service personnel are at 
least to
some extent entitled to "free" medical care, though in truth in Canada, 
that is
somewhat universal. So, again, what‘s your point? Those men 
and
women that I speak of as service people are unlikely, under the present 
regime,
able to make significant donations, charitable or otherwise. 
Certainly
something could be worked out, we are talking a major re-working of a
system! Rules can be changed. The Child Tax Credit is a bit 
of a
joke by juggling the tax system in general, it would not likely be 
missed,
especially if a new pay system paid dollar for dollar on value
received.
EI and CPP are separate and distinct issues from 
Income Tax
everyone pays them and a service person has the "right" to them 
too.
What‘s your point? Rental property? Few junior ranks have 
that, even
few senior ranks, outside of Colonels and Generals...but such income is 
and
remains taxable, with appropriate write-offs as apply. 
RRSP‘s? Ask
yourself how many members this applies to! Not many! And 
again,
could the tax laws not be modified to suit?
A look into this could re-apportion our country‘s 
investment
in the military its a concept of getting "the biggest bang for the 
bucK‘ a
concept of re-routing dollars to be spent more effectively.
Think it through...if we are understaffed by 20, 
and 20 is
the residual tax grab it is more! we can get around the manpower 
shortage with
the same dollars. Seeing as our understaffing is perhaps not quite 
that
severe, we could make up equipment and ammunition shortages, on the same 
budget.
Its an old saw that says that we attack at first 
light so that
when we fail, the day is not totally wasted, but a little "out of the 
box"
thinking could pay some real rewards to both service people and the
country.
Kick it around and let me know your 
thoughts.
John
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Steven 
R Clark

  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 
2000 8:51
  PM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box
Thinking

  Interesting...tax free income at a 
lower
  rate.

  We pay no taxes on our income, thus 
are entitled
  tono tax return on medical 
expenses, no
  tax return on charitable donations, no tax return personal business
  expenses, no child tax credit, no tax return on rental property, no 
tax return
  on rrsp contributions....

  Does one propose we not pay EI too? 
Or
  CPP?

  I know that this was only an idea, 
and a subject
  for discussion, but I see more loss than gain.

  Steve

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From:
    Mike Oleary 
    To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
    Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 
2000 7:49
    AM
    Subject: Re: Out of the Box
    Thinking

    Interesting that you should propose 
this
    approach. Over the years I have come in contact with assorted 
citizens with
    no personal connection to the CF that already thought that we paid 
no taxes.
    And is was a source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t 
carry a
    share of the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing 
was
    free, and that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks,
    etc.

    While your proposal makes fiscal 
and
    internally logical sense, one aspect that should be considered is
    palatability to the public. In my experience, John Q Public would 
rather see
    us paid more and paying taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay 
rate. I
    don‘t know how much of an overall saving it would take to 
demonstrate an
    advantage to the public purse for us not paying taxes. Any such 
change would
    need to be preceded by an open and forceful sales pitch, the message 
would
    have to be on the street in clear before a few noisy detractors 
could taint
    it with mis-information. 

    Mike

    The Regimental Rogue
    2001 Canadian Military History
    Calendar
     http://regimentalrog 
ue.tripod.com/index.htm


--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:11:32 -0400*
Hi Steve
Okay, questions for you...Canadian members of Parliament and Provincial 
Legislatures can and do have tax-free income...so why not other 
Canadians?
I obviously do not know who you are, but suggest that it is unlikely 
that you do not pay tax on income...service personnel are at least to 
some extent entitled to "free" medical care, though in truth in Canada, 
that is somewhat universal.  So, again, what‘s your point?  Those men 
and women that I speak of as service people are unlikely, under the 
present regime, able to make significant donations, charitable or 
otherwise.  Certainly something could be worked out, we are talking a 
major re-working of a system!  Rules can be changed.  The Child Tax 
Credit is a bit of a joke by juggling the tax system in general, it 
would not likely be missed, especially if a new pay system paid dollar 
for dollar on value received.
EI and CPP are separate and distinct issues from Income Tax everyone 
pays them and a service person has the "right" to them too.  What‘s your 
point?  Rental property?  Few junior ranks have that, even few senior 
ranks, outside of Colonels and Generals...but such income is and remains 
taxable, with appropriate write-offs as apply.  RRSP‘s?  Ask yourself 
how many members this applies to!  Not many!  And again, could the tax 
laws not be modified to suit?
A look into this could re-apportion our country‘s investment in the 
military its a concept of getting "the biggest bang for the bucK‘ a 
concept of re-routing dollars to be spent more effectively.
Think it through...if we are understaffed by 20, and 20 is the 
residual tax grab it is more! we can get around the manpower shortage 
with the same dollars.  Seeing as our understaffing is perhaps not quite 
that severe, we could make up equipment and ammunition shortages, on the 
same budget.
Its an old saw that says that we attack at first light so that when we 
fail, the day is not totally wasted, but a little "out of the box" 
thinking could pay some real rewards to both service people and the 
country.
Kick it around and let me know your thoughts.
John
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steven R Clark
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 8:51 PM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box Thinking
  Interesting...tax free income at a lower rate.
  We pay no taxes on our income, thus are entitled to no tax return on 
medical expenses, no tax return on charitable donations, no tax return 
personal business expenses, no child tax credit, no tax return on 
rental property, no tax return on rrsp contributions....
  Does one propose we not pay EI too? Or CPP?
  I know that this was only an idea, and a subject for discussion, but I 
see more loss than gain.
  Steve
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mike Oleary
    To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
    Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 7:49 AM
    Subject: Re: Out of the Box Thinking
    Interesting that you should propose this approach. Over the years I 
have come in contact with assorted citizens with no personal connection 
to the CF that already thought that we paid no taxes. And is was a 
source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t carry a share of 
the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing was free, 
and that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks, etc.
    While your proposal makes fiscal and internally logical sense, one 
aspect that should be considered is palatability to the public. In my 
experience, John Q Public would rather see us paid more and paying 
taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay rate. I don‘t know how much of 
an overall saving it would take to demonstrate an advantage to the 
public purse for us not paying taxes. Any such change would need to be 
preceded by an open and forceful sales pitch, the message would have to 
be on the street in clear before a few noisy detractors could taint it 
with mis-information.
    Mike
    The Regimental Rogue
    2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
     http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
Hi Steve
Okay, questions for you...Canadian members of 
Parliament and
Provincial Legislatures can and do have tax-free income...so why not 
other
Canadians?
I obviously do not know who you are, but suggest 
that it is
unlikely that you do not pay tax on income...service personnel are at 
least to
some extent entitled to "free" medical care, though in truth in Canada, 
that is
somewhat universal. So, again, what‘s your point? Those men 
and
women that I speak of as service people are unlikely, under the present 
regime,
able to make significant donations, charitable or otherwise. 
Certainly
something could be worked out, we are talking a major re-working of a
system! Rules can be changed. The Child Tax Credit is a bit 
of a
joke by juggling the tax system in general, it would not likely be 
missed,
especially if a new pay system paid dollar for dollar on value
received.
EI and CPP are separate and distinct issues from 
Income Tax
everyone pays them and a service person has the "right" to them 
too.
What‘s your point? Rental property? Few junior ranks have 
that, even
few senior ranks, outside of Colonels and Generals...but such income is 
and
remains taxable, with appropriate write-offs as apply. 
RRSP‘s? Ask
yourself how many members this applies to! Not many! And 
again,
could the tax laws not be modified to suit?
A look into this could re-apportion our country‘s 
investment
in the military its a concept of getting "the biggest bang for the 
bucK‘ a
concept of re-routing dollars to be spent more effectively.
Think it through...if we are understaffed by 20, 
and 20 is
the residual tax grab it is more! we can get around the manpower 
shortage with
the same dollars. Seeing as our understaffing is perhaps not quite 
that
severe, we could make up equipment and ammunition shortages, on the same 
budget.
Its an old saw that says that we attack at first 
light so that
when we fail, the day is not totally wasted, but a little "out of the 
box"
thinking could pay some real rewards to both service people and the
country.
Kick it around and let me know your 
thoughts.
John
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Steven 
R Clark

  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 
2000 8:51
  PM
  Subject: Re: Out of the Box
Thinking

  Interesting...tax free income at a 
lower
  rate.

  We pay no taxes on our income, thus 
are entitled
  tono tax return on medical 
expenses, no
  tax return on charitable donations, no tax return personal business
  expenses, no child tax credit, no tax return on rental property, no 
tax return
  on rrsp contributions....

  Does one propose we not pay EI too? 
Or
  CPP?

  I know that this was only an idea, 
and a subject
  for discussion, but I see more loss than gain.

  Steve

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From:
    Mike Oleary 
    To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
    Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 
2000 7:49
    AM
    Subject: Re: Out of the Box
    Thinking

    Interesting that you should propose 
this
    approach. Over the years I have come in contact with assorted 
citizens with
    no personal connection to the CF that already thought that we paid 
no taxes.
    And is was a source of bitterness for them to think that we didn‘t 
carry a
    share of the ‘burden.‘ The same people thought that military housing 
was
    free, and that servicemen got other subsidization, tax breaks,
    etc.

    While your proposal makes fiscal 
and
    internally logical sense, one aspect that should be considered is
    palatability to the public. In my experience, John Q Public would 
rather see
    us paid more and paying taxes, that to be tax exempt at any pay 
rate. I
    don‘t know how much of an overall saving it would take to 
demonstrate an
    advantage to the public purse for us not paying taxes. Any such 
change would
    need to be preceded by an open and forceful sales pitch, the message 
would
    have to be on the street in clear before a few noisy detractors 
could taint
    it with mis-information. 

    Mike

    The Regimental Rogue
    2001 Canadian Military History
    Calendar
     http://regimentalrog 
ue.tripod.com/index.htm


--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Tue, 26 Sep 2000 20:33:19 -0600*
I think the Brits had such a system for their TA a few years ago.
Don‘t know what practical result it had but it would seem to be
a good "signal" to the population of the worth of our PRes.
I was going to say that it ‘opens up Pandora‘s Box‘ to other claims of
worthy tax exemptions but I won‘t because there are already a great many
tax exemptions. Best to have it slipped in during some crisis such as
the next ice storm, flood, etc.
> Gow wrote:
> 
> What would happen, say, if we looked at a specific problem, and saw
> that the CF was not a popular career choice, or the PRes was not
> popular, just in terms or renumeration?
> 
> If that would be accurate, could we say that the effect of the income
> tax the members paid was infitesmal in the greater picture of things
> as a country?
> 
> So what would be the difference if CF pay and ONLY for members, not
> civvy staff was non-taxable?
> 
> Pay rates could be effectively reduced, costs might go down,
> attraction would go up.  Certainly.
> 
> What else?
> 
> Lets discuss this.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Wed, 27 Sep 2000 15:43:35 -0700*
The greatest benefit to elimination of federal income tax on earnings by
soldiers would be to eliminate the secondary taxes which are calculated based on
federal income tax.  I would think variations in provincial taxes might be
annoying and unfair to posted regular soldiers.  Or are regular soldiers exempt
from provincial income tax?
Perhaps it would be enough to only tax military earnings federally.
Brad Sallows
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:04:43 -0600*
did I miss something?  Is there a proposal to eliminate federal income tax on
soldiers?
"Bradley Sallows"  on 09/27/2000 04:43:35 PM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: Out of the Box Thinking
The greatest benefit to elimination of federal income tax on earnings by
soldiers would be to eliminate the secondary taxes which are calculated based on
federal income tax.  I would think variations in provincial taxes might be
annoying and unfair to posted regular soldiers.  Or are regular soldiers exempt
from provincial income tax?
Perhaps it would be enough to only tax military earnings federally.
Brad Sallows
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:01:40 -0400*
Brad
Nope, regulars pay provincial taxes, that cost me about an extra $200
monthly with my move this summer from Ontario to Nova Scotia. Just one of
those hidden little surprises, depending on which way you move, it might be
a nice surprise, or ...
Troy
No, you did not miss anything. there has been no such proposal, just some
theoretical discussion here on the List.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Thu, 28 Sep 2000 10:09:14 -0600*
Interesting thought, might be able to see that to Stockwell and the Alliance,
good luck with the Liberals on that one though...
m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary on 09/28/2000 10:01:40 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: Out of the Box Thinking
Brad
Nope, regulars pay provincial taxes, that cost me about an extra $200
monthly with my move this summer from Ontario to Nova Scotia. Just one of
those hidden little surprises, depending on which way you move, it might be
a nice surprise, or ...
Troy
No, you did not miss anything. there has been no such proposal, just some
theoretical discussion here on the List.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:35:32 -0600*
I think ONE not the most important of the original ideas behind PMQs
was to level the provincial playing fields. Not only does someone like
Mike O‘Leary have to pay higher provincial taxes but going the other way
he could be forced to pay extremely high housing costs in TO or
Vancouver compared to most other areas of Canada. Of course one can
argue that if you are buying real estate that even tho you are paying so
much more in TO/Van that you are really just "buying equity" it must
hurt to rent off base in the two large centres. There‘s no easy answer.
I think federal civil servants and often employees of larger national
corporations, most not subject to compulsory transfers, get the same pay
per rank/grade regardless of where stationed. Come to Edmonton where the
taxes are lower, the air is cleaner most days and housing is
reasonably priced unless you are posted-in from Shilo/Brandon or
perhaps Oromocto. Hurry, housing prices are rising fast here too.
Mike Oleary wrote:
> 
> Brad
> 
> Nope, regulars pay provincial taxes, that cost me about an extra $200
> monthly with my move this summer from Ontario to Nova Scotia. Just one of
> those hidden little surprises, depending on which way you move, it might be
> a nice surprise, or ...
> 
> Troy
> 
> No, you did not miss anything. there has been no such proposal, just some
> theoretical discussion here on the List.
> 
> Mike
> 
> The Regimental Rogue
> 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:49:30 -0400*
Actually, a recent initiative has started to address the variance in cost of
living across the country. Earlier this year the CF announced a new
allowance, the Post Living Differential. Members who live in select areas
are eligible for a monthly allowance which is intended to offset local costs
above a given level. In Toronto, for example, which gave the highest rate, a
member would receive IIRC $972 monthly pre-tax. Married service couples
would each receive 70 of the rate.
The system had some holes that were identified quickly, for example there
was no published version of the mechanism to determine the Differential, so
bases who felt they were shorted could not re-evaluate the process for
submission to the chain of command. Also, the way the regulation was
phrased, if you were posted back to your location of recruitment, you were
not eligible for the Allowance, because you would not have had it if you had
never joined.
I don‘t know if any refinements to the program have been announced. Having
moved to a place of duty which does not have the Allowance, it‘s not a topic
of concern here. Perhaps someone else on the List can provide more details.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Out of the Box Thinking
> I think ONE not the most important of the original ideas behind PMQs
> was to level the provincial playing fields. Not only does someone like
> Mike O‘Leary have to pay higher provincial taxes but going the other way
> he could be forced to pay extremely high housing costs in TO or
> Vancouver compared to most other areas of Canada. Of course one can
> argue that if you are buying real estate that even tho you are paying so
> much more in TO/Van that you are really just "buying equity" it must
> hurt to rent off base in the two large centres. There‘s no easy answer.
>
> I think federal civil servants and often employees of larger national
> corporations, most not subject to compulsory transfers, get the same pay
> per rank/grade regardless of where stationed. Come to Edmonton where the
> taxes are lower, the air is cleaner most days and housing is
> reasonably priced unless you are posted-in from Shilo/Brandon or
> perhaps Oromocto. Hurry, housing prices are rising fast here too.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------

