# Cadpat dress regs?



## Jabrwock (17 Jul 2008)

CFP265 covers in detail all "parade" dress and related gear (mess dress, service dress, etc), but is there a CFP that covers the same for CADPAT & related uniforms (ie operational wear)? I'm familiar with most of "how to wear it" as other than some style and material changes they haven't altered much from back when I was in cadets (and we were wearing the old OG107 style combats), but is there a manual/pam that covers "operational wear" in more detail that Chapter 6 does?

Yes I'm aware that most of "how to wear your gear" is covered in Basic Training. But a reference is never a bad thing.


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## Bzzliteyr (21 Jul 2008)

No.  As I have looked into it many times while ranting and raving about our dress regs overseas, the 265 merely states that combat dress is pretty much left into the hands of local commanders.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

That being said, what specifically are you wondering about, and what environment is this in regard to?  I know some things I see at the Wing wouldn't be acceptable at any of the army units I served with.


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## Bzzliteyr (21 Jul 2008)

Ha, like first names on name tapes???

"Good morning sir!! (Cpl salutes LCol)  My bad...I mean, hey Jim!!"

Seriously though, what is it for?  I mean if it's for rules on who is allowed to wear cadpat, I believe there may be threads somewhere in here that discuss the cadet permissions for it.  As far as I know, the OG combats are allowed and issued at camps.


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## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Ha, like first names on name tapes???



On flightsuits, yes.

CADPAT, no.


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## Bzzliteyr (21 Jul 2008)

Aren't OG flightsuits considered combat dress in the airforce?  Or is that just a heli thing?  (totally out of my lane on that, which is why I am asking)

What's the diff between the blue and green suits?

/hijack over


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## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> What's the diff between the blue and green suits?



There are no more blue flightsuits.


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## Bzzliteyr (21 Jul 2008)

Ah.. there we go.  They are all two piecers now as well, right?


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## greenjacket (21 Jul 2008)

i know in the army a lot of things with the combats can be worn slighty diffently when not on course, like lanceing the boots diffently, wearing a diffent undershirt, waering one of the cpgear toques or the DEU toques instead of the issued ones.  Some times depending on where you are there are diffent standrds, personally I think that half the army must own the cpgear toque


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## Jorkapp (21 Jul 2008)

> There are no more blue flightsuits.



Not for CF Aircrew personnel. Plenty of them for Cadets and CIC flying gliders and tow-planes. Judging by what I've seen around the wing, some of them look of pretty recent manufacture, too. 

[EDIT]



> Aren't OG flightsuits considered combat dress in the airforce?  Or is that just a heli thing?



Not "Combat" dress, but Operational dress. Around 19 Wing, PLT, ANAV, FE, AESOP, and SAR TECH (though they wear orange) by virtue of their trade are authorized to wear flightsuits as dress-of-the-day. Other trades may procure and wear flightsuits provided they are accompanying aircrew (I have one set, wore it for a CP-140 flight and an Op Connection detail). Otherwise, you're in your trade's dress-of-the-day, which is CADPAT 9 times out of 10.


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## xena (21 Jul 2008)

I can't say anything about what kind of courses you've been on but, I have to interject about something:  boot lacing.

So, you're saying there's a difference in how one laces ones boots at a unit and a different way on course?  Actually, at least as of eight years ago, quite wrong.  This is something that bugs me, so I apologize in advance.

Every now and then, someone would come along, and say that the dress regs on how one laced up the combat boots had changed and got everyone to do it their way.  The funny thing was, I was a clerk.  I had access to the dress regs (I know, everyone does now, online, I'm talking about back when it was a real book, with paper and everything!) because it was sitting two feet from my desk.  I darn well knew no amendments had not come in for it, because, if they had, it would have been my job to update the book.

Furthermore, there was funny little notations in the book telling you when the section you're looking at was last changed.  The combat boot lacing section had never been changed from way back in the '70's.  The problem was that the _*diagram*_ is what lost most people.  They had a hard time making heads or tails out of it, and whenever there was a new Adjt or RSM involved, he or she would interpret it differently, and _voila!_ there was a change in the regs that really wasn't a change! 

Now, this doesn't mean that one should go and argue with your CofC!  Not unless you want to risk spending some quality time in DB!   :crybaby:  But for those in leadership positions, please, please, please, could you read the book a little more carefully?

But, then again, I've been out for about eight years so, they might *actually have  * changed the method of lacing the combat boots.


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## Loachman (21 Jul 2008)

There are one-piece flying suits (the traditional Canadian term - "flight suit" is American) for all aircrew, and two-piece ones specifically for Tac Hel aircrew. Herc crews wore them as well when they were flying into Sarajevo as they didn't want to be the only targets in bright shoot-me blue if they absolutely had to get out of their aircraft.

We finally got rid of the blue abominations several years ago.

Within Tac Hel, some guys prefer the one-piece, and some the two-piece.

As for first names on nametags, my CADPAT AR "Frakya" ones may not go over too well with some folk.


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## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Within Tac Hel, some guys prefer the one-piece, and some the two-piece.



Same for us


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## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

decoy said:
			
		

> What about on Remembrance Day? Is there a Remembrance Day protocol? (p.s. I am a civvie, please don't flame me!)



DEUs usualy on Nov 11th


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## Loachman (21 Jul 2008)

decoy said:
			
		

> (p.s. I am a civvie, please don't flame me!)



Oh, come on, please - just a little bit?


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## PMedMoe (21 Jul 2008)

decoy said:
			
		

> p.s. I am a civvie, please don't flame me!





			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Oh, come on, please - just a little bit?









 ;D


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## Bzzliteyr (21 Jul 2008)

So.. anyone here have an answer to the initial question?? Now that I think of it, what was the initial question??


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## SupersonicMax (22 Jul 2008)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Ah.. there we go.  They are all two piecers now as well, right?



I've never seen a 2-piece in an ejection seat aircraft.  Any reason?  My guess is it would be extremely unconfortable plus it could be an issue in an ejection.



> i know in the army a lot of things with the combats can be worn slighty diffently when not on course, like lanceing the boots diffently, wearing a diffent undershirt, waering one of the cpgear toques or the DEU toques instead of the issued ones.  Some times depending on where you are there are diffent standrds, personally I think that half the army must own the cpgear toque



Do people really care about the way you lace your boots past basic?  God!  Don't you guys have anything more important to take care of!!!


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Do people really care about the way you lace your boots past basic?  God!  Don't you guys have anything more important to take care of!!!



Yes, the same way it matters whether the book says you get PLD or not, or the correct way to do weapons drills, obstacle drills, calling for supporting arms fire, and other things.

Why should you care about it?  The book says 'this is the CF way'.  Does it matter?  I dunno, does it matter to you if I let the safety lever fly off the grenade before I hand it to you? I mean, after all, its "just the way you are taught on SQ"....it doesn't matter after that, right?

 ;D


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## SupersonicMax (22 Jul 2008)

Meh, I just guess it's not as critical as a safety lever on a grenade.  It cannot kill people.  That's when I use common sense 

What's drill again?


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Meh, I just guess it's not as critical as a safety lever on a grenade.  It cannot kill people.  That's when I use common sense
> 
> What's drill again?



So, as a young Officer in training, you're suggesting that we can decide which reg's we have to follow and which ones we don't??  So, if I was working on your plane, you don't care if I have a few sips of Southern Comfort then right?  I mean, its not as critical as a safety lever on a grenade.  (I am assuming you actually have handled and thrown live frag's before).

Ok I think we've made our points and before someone starts throwing sand   in the sandbox, maybe we should end this hijack here.   8)


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## Loachman (22 Jul 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I've never seen a 2-piece in an ejection seat aircraft.  Any reason?  My guess is it would be extremely unconfortable plus it could be an issue in an ejection.



I do not think that it would make a bit of difference.


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## Loachman (22 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So, as a young Officer in training, you're suggesting that we can decide which reg's we have to follow and which ones we don't??  So, if I was working on your plane, you don't care if I have a few sips of Southern Comfort then right?  I mean, its not as critical as a safety lever on a grenade.  (I am assuming you actually have handled and thrown live frag's before).



Well, I've thrown a few grenades over the last few decades, and I've laced my combat boots my way and still managed to avoid blowing myself up in the process and function quite well during other parts of my job. My Oxfords, however, are straight-laced.

The Southern Comfort/aircraft maintenance comparison is just nonsense, even if Southern Comfort is a pleasant beverage.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

Ligthen up some guys  8)

The point I am trying to make is...where do you/we/anyone draw the line on the regs we follow and ones we don't?  If you can't keep it light, then maybe you should keep out of it.


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## aesop081 (22 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So, if I was working on your plane, you don't care if I have a few sips of Southern Comfort then right?  I mean, its not as critical as a safety lever on a grenade.  (I am assuming you actually have handled and thrown live frag's before).



Well, i have also handled a few live grenades here and there. Flying an aircraft into a container ship at 200+ knots is just as deadly. I dont drink and fly but my boots.......well, whatever. As long as i have them on.

Rules are rules but sometimes, theres bigger, more important rules to focus on. I'm pretty sure that at my rank, position and experience level, i can be trusted to know which is which.

......and SC is my drink of choice   8)


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## Acer Syrup (22 Jul 2008)

You know this isn't a bad question, I too am wondering now if there are any regs. Though I don't have a lot of questions , may be thats why there aren't any regs. 

I remember you had to twist the strings in the OG's to hid them and so on.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Well, i have also handled a few live grenades here and there. Flying an aircraft into a container ship at 200+ knots is just as deadly. I dont drink and fly but my boots.......well, whatever. As long as i have them on.
> 
> *Rules are rules but sometimes, theres bigger, more important rules to focus on.*



Good points.  And I agree, its just easy to ruffle you're guys feathers (or so it seems!).  I was picking on the young fella Max mostly in fun anyways...(mostly  ;D).


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## aesop081 (22 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Good points.  And I agree, its just easy to ruffle you're guys feathers (or so it seems!).  I was picking on the young fella Max mostly in fun anyways...(mostly  ;D).



I was not ruffled.

Strings on the combats......I never seen any rules but its always been done that way ("its been like that for the last 20 f'ing years, if you dont like it get the f**k out" was my first RSMs favorite line) and besides...the strings hanging out just looks stupid.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

Acer Syrup said:
			
		

> You know this isn't a bad question, I too am wondering now if there are any regs. Though I don't have a lot of questions , may be thats why there aren't any regs.
> 
> I remember you had to twist the strings in the OG's to hid them and so on.



I know where I am, there is something written in the WCWOs Dress Instruction.  Having said that, enforcing that is a different story. (laces tied in bows like little kiddies and flopping all over, combined with mbrs who don't use boot bands and have the tie strings also hanging out comes to mind immediately.)

When I was green, what was allowed in garrison and in the field were not the same.  Example, we were allowed to unblouse the pants in the field, to help keep cool.  

If you think of it, the only real thing to consider with the LWCC is sleeves up/down and the blousing of the pants.  The rest is...obvious, isn't it?


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## medaid (22 Jul 2008)

Lacing boots = whatever. But for inspections on a CO or other forms of parades then I give a damn. Rest of the time, what ever rocks your boots... Literally.


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## greenjacket (22 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> DEUs usualy on Nov 11th



We wear Number 1 Ceremonials on Nov 11 sometimes


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## greenjacket (22 Jul 2008)

Jabrwock said:
			
		

> CFP265 covers in detail all "parade" dress and related gear (mess dress, service dress, etc), but is there a CFP that covers the same for CADPAT & related uniforms (ie operational wear)? I'm familiar with most of "how to wear it" as other than some style and material changes they haven't altered much from back when I was in cadets (and we were wearing the old OG107 style combats), but is there a manual/pam that covers "operational wear" in more detail that Chapter 6 does?
> 
> Yes I'm aware that most of "how to wear your gear" is covered in Basic Training. But a reference is never a bad thing.




Does it cover Scottish Regiment's DEU's as well?


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## aesop081 (22 Jul 2008)

greenjacket said:
			
		

> We wear Number 1 Ceremonials on Nov 11 sometimes



There are units for which that applies and some to which it doesnt.


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## brihard (24 Jul 2008)

Dress regs can result in some amusing sights under the right circumstances.

I've been told of an RCR officer who CTed to air force and got posted to 427 sqn. For some time in Petawawa, as he had not yet completed all of his phase training, he was still wearing his old RCR cap badge that he was entitled to- but on his blue air force beret. Apparently correct according the regulations, as he wasn't entitled to his new cap badge yet, but one of those strange as hell occurances that nobody would have anticipated.

Similarly funny things can happen with dress regs when reserve infantry (and all the funny hats we're known for) start getting seconded to different units on workup training...


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## Bzzliteyr (24 Jul 2008)

Which now allows me to tell this funny story.

Canada day, this year.  I am getting all my ducks in order for the Canada day ceremony at the old port of Montreal.  All the units tasked with personnel are to have them report to the BlackWatch armouries first thing in the morning for a quick practice, etc.  I am running around making sure all EIS, etc is where it's supposed to be.

I run down to the basement where everyone is lined up signing for weapons when I do a double take on a soldier who is wearing a black beret with an infantry (ducims) cap badge!!  I was a little too busy to converse with him as to HOW he had gotten that all set up but I told him to start asking around and to find a greeen beret..

Worst thing was.. I was not the first person of a supervisor rank to have passed him.. and he had somehow managed to come off course with that setup!!


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## brihard (24 Jul 2008)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Which now allows me to tell this funny story.
> 
> Canada day, this year.  I am getting all my ducks in order for the Canada day ceremony at the old port of Montreal.  All the units tasked with personnel are to have them report to the BlackWatch armouries first thing in the morning for a quick practice, etc.  I am running around making sure all EIS, etc is where it's supposed to be.
> 
> ...



Wow, that's a bit of egg on the face for some instructors...

I've seen a flight suit and balmorral worn as dress of the day by some reservists who lucked into a really obscure tasking. Plus SNCOs from the Argylls have the option of wearing a Glengarry in lieu of a balmorral, so there's been at least one glengarry being worn with a flight suit by a Sgt amongst that same group. The air force guys apparently just didn't know what to make of it.


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## Loachman (24 Jul 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> really obscure tasking



Door gunners.


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## brihard (24 Jul 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Door gunners.



That would be the one. I wasn't sure if it was kosher to mention specifics, as I've not seen that tasking discussed here before.


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## greenjacket (24 Jul 2008)

one of the worst things I've seen is the infantry cap badge on a 48th Highlander balmoral worn by someone on their BMQ


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## Jorkapp (24 Jul 2008)

Need I bring up the flipside, of wedge with combats?

*dons flame-suit*


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jul 2008)

No, because it is no longer authorized dress (thank god).


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## armyvern (24 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> No, because it is no longer authorized dress (thank god).



Perhaps not, but I saw it just this past Monday!

And, lost it -- go figure.

A suppie at that. First day here, now knows better.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jul 2008)

That policy changed some time ago, and it took a few weeks after the 'thou shall not' date was given for it to disappear completely here at the Wing.  I have to say that it was the stupidest looking combination in recent memory. Especially with the combination of a gut, boot laces hanging out and sleeves 'kind of' rolled up.  It was easy to see the laces hanging out on the boots, as the mbr avoided causing others eye damage due to glare by refraining from polishing said boots...for 6 months or so from what I could tell.

 ;D


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## armyvern (24 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> That policy changed some time ago, and it took a few weeks after the 'thou shall not' date was given for it to disappear completely here at the Wing.  I have to say that it was the stupidest looking combination in recent memory. Especially with the combination of a gut, boot laces hanging out and sleeves 'kind of' rolled up.  It was easy to see the laces hanging out on the boots, as the mbr avoided causing others eye damage from glare from refraining to polish boots...for 6 months or so from what I could tell.
> 
> ;D



Actually, most blue around here would have been just as horrified to see it as I was, I'm sure.

You should see some of the boots on green uniforms in these parts ... and some have guts too - that's not limited to any trade/enviornment by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jul 2008)

Just a girl said:
			
		

> Actually, most blue around here would have been just as horrified to see it as I was, I'm sure.
> 
> You should see some of the boots on green uniforms in these parts ... and some have guts too - *that's not limited to any trade/enviornment by any stretch of the imagination*.



True that!


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## PMedMoe (24 Jul 2008)

AEC Kapp said:
			
		

> Need I bring up the flipside, of wedge with combats?



Actually saw one today but it must have been a Cadet as it was the old combats and not CADPAT.  Also, it's Ottawa.


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## Loachman (25 Jul 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> That would be the one. I wasn't sure if it was kosher to mention specifics, as I've not seen that tasking discussed here before.



It has been.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jul 2008)

decoy said:
			
		

> What are Number 1 ceremonials?



From CFP 265:

"No 1 is as for No 3 duty service dress with orders, decorations, medals and accoutrements"


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## chrisf (25 Jul 2008)

I can attribute every injury and resulting permanent ache or pain to my own stupid or neglect... it may have been during training, but ultimately, it could have been prevented if I were more careful...


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jul 2008)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I can attribute every injury and resulting permanent ache or pain to my own stupid or neglect... it may have been during training, but ultimately, it could have been prevented if I were more careful...



Wrong section?


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## greenjacket (25 Jul 2008)

decoy said:
			
		

> What are Number 1 ceremonials?



Dress uniforms that are diffent for every regiment, such has red coats, bear skins, etc, it's a more old fashion uniform, personally it's my favorite for parades


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jul 2008)

greenjacket said:
			
		

> Dress uniforms that are diffent for every regiment, such has red coats, bear skins, etc, it's a more old fashion uniform, personally it's my favorite for parades



That would be 1B FULL DRESS and 





> Nos. 1B and 1C are optional and my be worn in lieu of Nos. 1 and 1A (See Chapter 2, Annex A)


 (from CFP 265)


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## Jorkapp (25 Jul 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Actually saw one today but it must have been a Cadet as it was the old combats and not CADPAT.  Also, it's Ottawa.



Most likely a camp cadet at CRPTC. When I did a course there a few years ago, Air cadets wore wedges with OG-107's on occasion, typically the weekly battalion parades.


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## Jabrwock (28 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The rest is...obvious, isn't it?


You'd be surprised...    No I jest, most of it *is* obvious. But it seems odd that most uniform classes have "here's how it must look" down to how you order medals,  how many millimeters above the pocket nametags go, when and where you wear rank pins vs. epaulets, which shirts are authorized for wear with which style, how many laces down the bottom of the pants hang, etc, yet nothing is mentioned about ops wear.

Even a simple drawing like they have for each "service dress" would be nice.


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## Jabrwock (28 Jul 2008)

xena said:
			
		

> I can't say anything about what kind of courses you've been on but, I have to interject about something:  boot lacing.
> 
> So, you're saying there's a difference in how one laces ones boots at a unit and a different way on course?  Actually, at least as of eight years ago, quite wrong.  This is something that bugs me, so I apologize in advance.


Not at all. See, this is the kind of thing it's nice to have a diagram for. To settle such "but this is the way I was taught by so and so at Basic", "well they were misinformed. how do I know? *points at regs*".



> Furthermore, there was funny little notations in the book telling you when the section you're looking at was last changed.


Ugh, whoever printed out our CATOs before their update got assigned to me used a bad printer or something, which blurred most of the text, only did single sided (so it doesn't all fit in the original binder), and cut off the footer so I can't see the "Mod" number, even on the new stuff (so I'm not sure what's up to date). They also only filled out the "Al. No." section with chapter numbers, not Mod number, and only dated when they received them, not when they were issued. I'm debating tossing the whole thing in the recycle bin and reprinting from scratch. Or at least all the chapters I can't verify as "up to date"...


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## Bzzliteyr (28 Jul 2008)

Jabrwock, 

You can do like I do.  Carry all the "important" stuff with you in pdf format on a memory stick, referring to images and printing them when necessary.  I understand a hard copy in the Orderly room is a must as well.

I carry the dress regs, drill and ceremonial and the honours and awards with me most of the time at work.


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## Jabrwock (29 Jul 2008)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> You can do like I do.  Carry all the "important" stuff with you in pdf format on a memory stick, referring to images and printing them when necessary.  I understand a hard copy in the Orderly room is a must as well.


I refer to the electronic versions all the time, it's the hard-copy here that's a mess. I think whoever was in charge of keeping it up to date would pile up mods for a year, and then insert them all at once. Now that it's my job, they go in as soon as they show up in my e-box. The only thing definitely out of date is the ToC, it's dated 1995, and they don't have an electronic copy yet, other than a non-printer-friendly webpage.


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## Disenchantedsailor (25 Aug 2008)

Here is the real deal for CADPAT Dress instructions,   in the Dress Instructions for the CF in the operational clothing chapter is says something to this effect, not being near work today I dont have the pub so it goes something like this.  Army operational clothing (CADPAT) is worn for individual comfort however garrison commanders may make local regulations iot preserve uniformity in garrison.


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## SkyHeff (9 Sep 2012)

Bit of a necro post, but could someone help clarify dress of the day and whether its base/unit specific?  I got an email to attend an ROTP briefing at my local ASU (mostly army) saying its dress of the day, with naval combats for navy pers. As an air crew trade would this be CADPAT or flight suit?  I've spent the past 4 months in Cold Lake in a flight suit and my ASU POC isn't sure but thinks it'd be CADPAT as that 's what people wear around here.  Was just curious as to whether the the flight suit was an air base or operational uniform as alluded to in a previous post or deemed dress of the day for air crew?


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## brihard (9 Sep 2012)

You can never go wrong asking up your individual chain of command. I know that seems like a cop out, but it's worth being accurate0 and that way you only need to ask once, and you save yourself the potential awkwardness of being 'corrected'.


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## Good2Golf (9 Sep 2012)

As briars said, hat to go wrong with checking with your own CoC.  That said, if they noted NCD for naval personnel, then CADPAT will likely not draw fire.  Flying gear would be more like dress of the day at a flying unit proper.  Could you wear a flying suit?  Probably, but CADPAT is safe.  It also depends on how you want to be seen by others at the meeting...I will usually wear CADPAT when I go to meetings on Base/ASU to reinforce the integration/support message with my Army brethren.  

Regards
G2G


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