# Air Crew Selection Centre



## Joe Blow (20 Jul 2004)

Hi There - 

Can anyone tune me in to what I might expect at the air crew selection centre?


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## pipstah (21 Jul 2004)

You going there soon?


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## Zoomie (21 Jul 2004)

Unfortunately the testing that is done at ACS is confidential in nature.  It would give someone an un-fair advantage over another if the testing parameters were discussed here.

With that in mind - generalities will have to do.  Expect to "fly" a type of simulator where your ability to follow instructions in 3 dimensions will be accurately gauged. Also expect a myriad of intense mental questions - Google search for IQ tests and do all of them.


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## Joe Blow (21 Jul 2004)

Pipstah: - Wish I could say I was...   I still have to do my fitness test, interview...   all that.   Paperwork is in for Air Nav. though.

Thanks Zoomie: - I like those IQ tests..   I like the MENSA mental puzzles..   So that's good to hear!   I suppose it would make sense to bone up on my algebra and physics too... Thanks for the pointer.   Anything else you can add would be appreciated.


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## bobs28 (22 Jul 2004)

when you are graded on the simulator, do you people find that they evaluate you as someone who hasnt flown before, or do you reccomend i try to get some flight experience before going to the Air Crew Selection


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## casing (22 Jul 2004)

Take the following for what it's worth.  I have not attended the air crew selection centre, however I was looking into Air Nav at one point so I did extensive research into it.

For the simulator they test you on it is *not* a requirement that you have any flight experience whatsoever.  As stated earlier, the purpose is to test your progressive learning ability in a 3-dimensional environment.  So you will need to build upon what you learn each time you get tested in it and your progression in this is what is measured.

By the way, why are Air Nav candidates tested in the simulator if those particular tests are not considered anyway?  Seems like a waste of $$ to me.  But then I haven't the slightest idea on what the costs are to run these tests.


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## Pieman (23 Jul 2004)

> As stated earlier, the purpose is to test your progressive learning ability in a 3-dimensional environment.





> why are Air Nav candidates tested in the simulator if those particular tests are not considered anyway?



Just speculating here, but wouldn't an Air Nav need a exceptional spacial ability? Sounds like that might be a good test for it. 

I applied for AirNav, and man I am getting some excited about the idea since the new choppers are coming!!


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## saintjoseph (8 Sep 2004)

I am proof that it is possible to pass air crew selection without any flying experience. The only preparation I had was buying a few hours on a simulator at a local flight school - which I recommend. It was a pretty stressful three days in the simulator, and they never really tell you how you are doing until you find out if you passed or failed. The success rate is fairly low. 

One thing to be sure to brush up on...grade 11 mathematics!! Long division and stuff. I figured 4 university calculus course would serve me well on the math exams...man was I wrong. I believe there is 3 Air Nav tests and I failed the math one. Apparently the success rate for Air Nav is even lower than it is for pilot at Air Crew Selection.


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## Garbageman (8 Sep 2004)

Going for Air Nav doesn't require that you attend Aircrew Selection in Trenton - the written test can be done locally at your Recruiting Centre (you don't go in the simulator for Air Nav, only for pilot).  You will have to attend an aircrew medical in Toronto though (1-2 days).


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## revy (5 Feb 2005)

saintjoseph said:
			
		

> I am proof that it is possible to pass air crew selection without any flying experience. The only preparation I had was buying a few hours on a simulator at a local flight school - which I recommend...



How many hours would you recommend? Do you recommend training in a particular simulator or particular simulated aircraft? What about in-flight and/or ground training? Suggested?


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## Armageddon (5 Feb 2005)

Flight sims can never hurt but I went there a couple years ago and I never had any prior experience or practice.  Just listen to what they say and don't second guess yourself with the tests, make a choice and stick with it.  Other than that just relax, if you knoe it you do and if not you gave it your best shot.


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## eliminator (5 Mar 2005)

I'm not too fond of the Air Crew Rejection Center, and neither are many of my friends. I had a civi private pilots licence, but became a statistic at ACSC, as did several of my amigos. Now, I have to get a commercial licence if I want to try again. Ah well, life as an AEC doesnt seem all that bad. I'd rather be overseas flying in AWACS then waiting 2+years in the backlog to get wings.


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## mdh (6 Mar 2005)

Eliminator,

Can't you try again without doing a commercial license? I thought ACS offered a second chance to candidates who failed? Or is it a case that if you have a PPL they require an upgrading in credentials to even be considered again?


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## Zoomie (6 Mar 2005)

eliminator said:
			
		

> I'm not too fond of the Air Crew Rejection Center, and neither are many of my friends. I had a civi private pilots licence, but became a statistic at ACSC, as did several of my amigos.



That sucks for you and your friends, try not to dwell on the past - every MOC in the CF has its own exciting challenges and rewards.  I know many who love their job in ATC.



> Ah well, life as an AEC doesnt seem all that bad. I'd rather be overseas flying in AWACS then waiting 2+years in the backlog to get wings.



Good spirit - however the backlog for Cornwall is rather long too, depending on the time of year.  It also is a much tougher trade when it comes to Unit Check Outs vice that of any Aircrew position.  Air Weapons out of Tinker or G-K would be the cat's meow, however I think the hole at North Bay might be a more realistic first posting.

Good luck friend - we'll see you in Blue in a couple of years.


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## eliminator (6 Mar 2005)

I dont expect to go AWACS any time soon. I realize that this possition is very very rarley a first posting. Our AEC career manager told us that a couple of years ago some freshly certified Air Weapons guys got to go AWACS as their first posting, but agian that's one of those right place, right time things.

I realize that there is somewhat of a backlog at Cornwall. If, for example after I graduate next May the course isnt till January or something, I can use that OJT time to work my commerical.

I'm already starting to work towards a commercial to go back to ACS, but it's hard to get the hours in and it costs lots of $$.


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## tree hugger (6 Mar 2005)

What is the AEC training like?  I had once expressed interest in it but was told that the last course noone passed.  Probably an exageration of course but does it have as high a failure rate as say MARS?


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## mdh (6 Mar 2005)

Now, I have to get a commercial licence if I want to try again.


No offence to any of the air force people here (you guys are always helpful and I appreciate the information -- especially as an aviation fan) but, how does ACS justify that policy? Getting a full commercial ticket? I could understand a few logged hours in a sim.   But considering the cost of training nowadays (I believe it runs about $160 hour with an instructor in my neck of the woods) that sounds just a little outlandish.

Anyway, good luck on the AEC, Emilinator.

cheers, all, mdh


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## Inch (6 Mar 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> Now, I have to get a commercial licence if I want to try again.
> 
> 
> No offence to any of the air force people here (you guys are always helpful and I appreciate the information -- especially as an aviation fan) but, how does ACS justify that policy? Getting a full commercial ticket? I could understand a few logged hours in a sim.   But considering the cost of training nowadays (I believe it runs about $160 hour with an instructor in my neck of the woods) that sounds just a little outlandish.
> ...



The military is odd like that. ACS is designed to make sure that a prospective pilot has the aptitude for flying in the military environment. The big difference is the pace at which you learn. I had a Commercial Multi IFR license and a College Aviation Diploma when I joined the CF so I bypassed PFT in Portage. There's guys that get to Moose Jaw with only the 30 hrs that they got on PFT and they're stepping into an aircraft with a Vne of 316kts that cruises at 278 KTAS at 31,000 ft. It's a very steep learning curve, but it's not impossible. 

Here's my progression, 97 hrs on the Harvard, then 103 hrs on the Jet Ranger, at the end of that I had 200 hrs, an instrument rating and I learned to fly not only high performance aircraft to a high standard, but also helicopters. Then with 200hrs in my book, I had my first flight in a Sea King helicopter, multi engine and multi crew with an all up weight of 20,500 lbs. Guys that go Herc and Aurora are the same way, 200 or so hours and you're flying a 4 engined aircraft with an AUW in the neighbourhood of 150,000lbs (for the Herc) in a multi crew environment. Compare that to guys I went to college with that had over 1000 hrs before stepping foot in a Beech 1900 that weighs in at around 17,000 lbs. 

So while ACS may seem unfair, I think it's a pretty accurate measure of whether or not people can keep up with the pace the military expects you to learn at. I guess they figure that if you can get a commercial license, then you've improved on your ability to fly and they're willing to take another look at you. Look on the bright side, at least there's a way to get another chance, if someone fails out of BFT or AFT, they're done. No second chances there.


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## mdh (6 Mar 2005)

> Here's my progression, 97 hrs on the Harvard, then 103 hrs on the Jet Ranger, at the end of that I had 200 hrs, an instrument rating and I learned to fly not only high performance aircraft to a high standard, but also helicopters. Then with 200hrs in my book, I had my first flight in a Sea King helicopter, multi engine and multi crew with an all up weight of 20,500 lbs. Guys that go Herc and Aurora are the same way, 200 or so hours and you're flying a 4 engined aircraft with an AUW in the neighbourhood of 150,000lbs (for the Herc) in a multi crew environment. Compare that to guys I went to college with that had over 1000 hrs before stepping foot in a Beech 1900 that weighs in at around 17,000 lbs.



Inch,

Wow, I see what you mean: that's pretty impressive, and a big learning curve. It must be incredibly intense making that fast a transition.  (I had enough trouble learning to land my 150 on alternate weekends.)

Once again thanks for the input, you guys are a great resource,

mdh


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## I_am_John_Galt (7 Mar 2005)

Re: CFASC retest

For what it's worth, my experience confirms the above: the official explanation I was given was that you are allowed 1 retest (lifetime) on the basis that you have demonstrated that you 'have upgraded your psychomotor skills to a point where proficiency to learn military flying is evident' (I'm paraphrasing, it was a while ago) and have special permission.  The only way to do this is to obtain your PPL (or FAA equivalent: Recreational is insufficient) in the case where you had no license, or upgrade to CPL from PPL if you had your PPL prior to attending CFASC the first time ... the 'special permission' is (nearly?) always granted.

For my part, I passed on the second go-round!!!  :threat:  (Still awaiting medical, though ...)


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## tayloro (12 May 2005)

I am just wondering about the ACS, it says you will be selected for you aircraft depending on skill or whatever, do you have any choice in which aircraft you wish to fly?

Another question kinda off topic:
I am graduating from Grade 12 in the next couple months and I plan on applying in September, I would like to one day fly an F-18. I have absolutely no previous flying experience other than realistic flight simulator games and such. I am planning on getting a Business Administration degree and I've always been an honor roll/work ethic student. Is there next to no chance of me getting to pilot the hornet or do I have somewhat of a chance if I work hard at it?

Thanks for your help


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## Inch (12 May 2005)

You are not selected at ACS for your aircraft type, that happens in Moose Jaw after your Basic Flight Training on the Harvard II. You do get to put your choices down, but be forewarned, 50% of the pilot slots go helicopter and you won't necessarily get your first choice. Some of it has to do with your placement on the course in Moose Jaw but a lot has to do with your individual performance, if you possess the skill and work ethic to go jets, your instructors will go to bat for you. Having said that, even if you do possess the skill and work ethic, that's no guarantee that you'll get jets.

That should answer your initial questions, have a search of the Air Force forum. I know myself and others have answered just about every question out there about the path to wings. Welcome to Army.ca


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## tayloro (12 May 2005)

Thanks for the quick reply inch  

I was planning on taking Business Administration but I was worried I would be stuck in a boring office job or even worse, no job.

When I first started looking into the airforce / CF I never realized it was so hard to become your selected path or even to get into the military alone.

Another thing, about the Second Language, do a lot of people attending that program no nothing about French? I have taken Grade 9 French and 2 years of Spanish but I know high school courses teach you next to nothing when it comes to speaking a 2nd language fluently. I'm worried I won't be able to learn French in 7-8 months or whatever it is they give you to learn it.


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## Inch (12 May 2005)

You aren't expected to be bilingual when you leave there, it's just not possible in 8 months. To become bilingual takes years of practice and continual french courses. Don't sweat it though, you don't even need a french profile until you're promoted to Major.


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## foxtwo (13 May 2005)

When it comes down to the line, would an Air Cadet that has received scholarships in Glider and/or Power have an advantage, since everything from "From the Ground Up" is basically roasted into our brains? And being taught leadership, drill, radio comm, nav, rank structure, and various other military related topics?


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## navalweps (13 May 2005)

I wish I had come across this forum a few years ago! There is a ton of rousing info out here.  I'm still "new" to the Air force but not the forces (12 yrs weapons tech). I went through ACS spring of 03, IAP 03, BOTC summer 04 and next weekend I'm off to Portage. I'll fill those interested in on all the details when I get back. Hopefully with a smile on my face. 

Either way I simply wanted to add at this point that I firmly believe passing ACS, Portage, Moose Jaw... has mostly to do with how well your brain talks to your hands and feet (see multitask) . Not everyone made ACS when I went through and I don't fully expect everyone to make it this summer either. That being said, the inspiring people that didn't make ACS walked away saying â Å“Either you have it or you don'tâ ? and that was it. No excuses, no whining. ACS and beyond isn't something you can study for like an organic chem final and any one going for ACS in the near future should first and foremost â Å“Relaxâ ? and spare yourself any anxiety. Secondly, focus each and everyday your there on the goal. Lastly, improve daily. This is your one time to shine and when it's over and you look back upon it like I do... it was something never worth getting as anxious about as I did. Hope this helps those curious. 

Now if I can remember my own advice these next two months I should be OK, ha-ha.


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## Sf2 (13 May 2005)

take my advice for what its worth (aircraft captain on a Griffon)

Aircrew selection doesn't measure your flying potential - it measures your learning potential.  I did ACS back when we sat in a little grocery store looking airplane, and flew circles in front of a painted mural.  A girl with 1000 hrs commercial failed - 2 out of 11 passed overall (including me thank god)

Don't go in there thinking you need to be an aeronautical engineer (I'm a business major) - go in with an open mind and enthusiasm.  And start studying rotary wing aerodynamics, cuz that's where you're headed....not that its a bad thing - I wouldn't trade it for an F18 slot any day.


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## Inch (13 May 2005)

foxtwo said:
			
		

> When it comes down to the line, would an Air Cadet that has received scholarships in Glider and/or Power have an advantage, since everything from "From the Ground Up" is basically roasted into our brains? And being taught leadership, drill, radio comm, nav, rank structure, and various other military related topics?



No. I've seen people fail out of Moose Jaw and Portage that had Commercial licences, I've also seen guys that had never been in an aircraft that passed the whole process quite easily. It depends on you and you alone, not your experience.


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## Raptor55055 (14 May 2005)

Been there and got the t-shirt (actually the post card).

ACS tests a lot of things- one of which is your determination. I did it, washed out, and got my PPL. I did it again and made it. I just finished BOTC and now am in the "pipeline".

Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight, and if it was easy, everyone would be a CF driver. Best of luck- and remember whether you "meet the requirements..." or not, it is not a measure of who you are. It is what you do after that matters.

Cheers,


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## Bograt (14 May 2005)

Above post is mine.... posted on my buddy's machine.

Cheers,


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## aesop081 (16 May 2005)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Above post is mine.... posted on my buddy's machine.
> 
> Cheers,



Hey Bograt....long time no see


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## Bograt (19 May 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Hey Bograt....long time no see



Hey, just finished BOTP in April. I am in the SLT pattern in St. Jean waiting to get posted to Shearwater or Greenwood for either SLT or OJT. I should get the message in a couple of weeks. I have the recommendation, I am now waiting for mon gerant de carriere (how's that for french training) to approve and cut the message.

I am heading home this weekend for 6 days. My wife and I had a baby while I was on IAP. The powers that be agreed that for my QOL, its best I wait for PFT in Nova Scotia. And from what I hear in the rumour mill that is the MEGA, us baby drivers will be waiting for up to 18 months to go to Portage.

I have heard that class sizes are being reduced from 15 to 9 - because there are delays at the OTU level. (I'm sure Inch or Zoomie know whether this is correct). Also heard that CFRC have been putting the hold on recruiting drivers. But again the MEGA is a whore house of rumours.

Hopefully I`ll be in Greenwood in a couple of weeks. I'm sure I owe you a beer for some wise ass comment.


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## aesop081 (19 May 2005)

Bograt...pm inbound


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## Inch (19 May 2005)

Bograt said:
			
		

> I have heard that class sizes are being reduced from 15 to 9 - because there are delays at the OTU level. (I'm sure Inch or Zoomie know whether this is correct). Also heard that CFRC have been putting the hold on recruiting drivers. But again the MEGA is a whore house of rumours.



I haven't heard that. The new pilot course here started this past Mon, 2 of the guys got their wings a month ago. So there appears to be the standard 1-6 month wait for the Sea King OTU (since the OTU only runs courses for 4-6 students and Portage only sends 1 or 2 guys per course to 12 Wing, if you're the first one waiting it's closer to 6 months), though that may get longer as we continue to battle serviceability problems due to the difficulty in getting parts.

I really haven't heard what's going on in the rest of the communities, I doubt there's much of a wait for the Griffon OTU, though the guys I got my wings with ended up waiting 6-8 months.


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## TheCheez (20 May 2005)

There are 73 pilots going to Moose Jaw this year (including the ones that have started since January)
There are 83-85 going next year.

There are ~160 OJTs hanging out in the system right now. You shouldn't have a problem getting into Greenwood and depending what our Gerant the Carriere says I may be joining you there sometime this summer.

At Portage the farthest I know ahead is that guys that came out of BOTC in December are scheduled in until spring 2006 and it could run later if the handover doesn't go smoothly.

The information does get out of Winnipeg eventually so just relax and find something interesting to do for awhile cause there's no way for you to change it.


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