# Sniper/Long Range Rifles



## big bad john (13 Feb 2005)

The Royal Marines employ 3 different weapons in this role.  The newest being the Accuracy International .338 Lapua Long Range Rifle, the L96A1 Sniper Rifle, and .50 caliber Barrett.  The Corps has also acquired 8 Accuracy International AW50F Rifles.  These are the rifles acquired by the Royal Engineers for EOD work.   At $8,000.00 US a piece the sniper teams of the SBS, are putting them through their paces to see if they are robust enough for field work.

What is Canada doing in this area?


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2005)

We have a .50 long range sniper rifle, and the C3A1 7.62 rifle.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_53_1.asp?uSubSection=53&uSection=2
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_35_1.asp?uSubSection=35&uSection=2


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## big bad john (13 Feb 2005)

How are the weapons and teams allocated?


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2005)

Couldn't tell ya.  Not sure I could if knew as it might fall under OPSEC.


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## Scoobie Newbie (13 Feb 2005)

The .50 is a Macmillan Brothers.


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## thomastmcc (14 Feb 2005)

hi so whats the differnence between the .338 long range rifle and the .50 cal ,i know its different ammo but whats the ranges ,power etc .

thomas


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

Did you check those links I provided?


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## thomastmcc (14 Feb 2005)

Hi yeah one is the 7.62mm and the other is the .50 cal for canada,but  its the weapons used by the royal marines I wanted to know about , the .338 and .50 cal differences thanks .


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

ah I see now.


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## big bad john (14 Feb 2005)

The Accuracy International .338 Lapua Long Range Rifle is a very accurate single shot rifle which is effective to 1200 metres. The 0.338 round from this weapon is capable of penetrating light armour and is a very effective suppressive weapon system. Each Commando Unit has 12 LRLCRs

The .50 calibre Barrett is a single shot bolt action rifle. The large calibre round used with this weapon makes it particularly useful in the anti-material role. The Barrett's maximum effective range is up to 2000metres. 

The L96A1 Sniper Rifle is a bolt action single shot weapon. It is accurate up to 1000metres and fires a 7.62mm round

I hope that gives you an idea.


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## 404SqnAVSTeach (14 Feb 2005)

I think i finally found the good crowd to ask this question...
Is it true that a Canadian Sniper did fartest kill ever recorded... at 2450 meters???


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## MikeM (14 Feb 2005)

Yes. It was 2430 metres IIRC.


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## thomastmcc (14 Feb 2005)

was that with a .50 cal then ? ,when in afghanistan ? .


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

.50 cal in A Stan confirmed kill Bronze Star.


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## thomastmcc (14 Feb 2005)

WOW  8) ,nice shot !


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## ArmyRick (14 Feb 2005)

404SQNAVSTech
You do mean farthest don't you? Check your spelling, its good for a chuckle...

The MacMillan 50 is quite a peice of kit, I had chance to play with a while back.


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## 404SqnAVSTeach (24 Feb 2005)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> 404SQNAVSTech
> You do mean farthest don't you? Check your spelling, its good for a chuckle...
> 
> The MacMillan 50 is quite a peice of kit, I had chance to play with a while back.


Oups...  funny what a misplaced letter will do.  
Did this gentleman made it in the Guinness book or have some sort of recognition...???


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## McAllister (27 Feb 2005)

Does the LRSW have a model number (i.e. C3A1) or is it just called the LRSW? Also, is the .50 cal amax the same as .50 BMG? ???


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## KevinB (1 Mar 2005)

The McMillan Tac-50 is not technically the LRSWS - there is an upxomign LRSWS trial (when who knows - I guess when DLR goes out canvassing as a charity for $) - the 750gr AMAX round is a .50BMG round used for antipers usage in the Tac50.  It has not been type classified a C series weapon.


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## 1feral1 (1 Mar 2005)

None of this info is OPSEC.

Pre 1998, the ADF was using the PH M82 with the ZF69 optics, just like the generic ole C3. In 1998, the AI AWF (All Weather Folder) in 7.62 x 51mm has since been adopted with S&B optics.

Also employed in 7.62mm is the SR25 (Mk11 Mod 0) this replaced the 7.62mm HK PSG1. We are also toying with the AI .338 too (to bridge to gap between 7.62 x 51mm and 12.7 x 99mm), and in 2001, we adopted the AI AW.50 (12.7 x 99mm) again with S&B optics.

Cheers,

Wes


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## KevinB (2 Mar 2005)

Furthermore the C7CT and AR10T have been adopted in limited numbers - when (once again DLR has to go out and mug some senior citizens coffee fund) the MRS trial gets funding those systems will be evaluated and in all likleyhood a 5.56mm DM gun and a 7.62mm DM gun will be adopted, whether or not they will be the CT or 10T remains to be seen as there are better options out there for both.


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## Argyll (22 Mar 2005)

Not only that but it was a secound round head shot too.  First shot went through a bag the target was carrying I believe.


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## Kal (22 Mar 2005)

So what's happening with the MRSWS program?  Has a rifle or caliber been chosen, yet?  Heard the timberwolf in .338 was the head runner and favoured to win?


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## Navalsnpr (22 Mar 2005)

Some info on this topic can be viewed on the CASR site:

Introduction to Sniper's Rifles

7.62mm Parker-Hale C3A1

C3A1 Replacement 

12.7mm   McMillan Tac-50


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## KevinB (22 Mar 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> So what's happening with the MRSWS program?   Has a rifle or caliber been chosen, yet?   Heard the timberwolf in .338 was the head runner and favoured to win?



A bird in Ottawa tells me the trial is over and the winner is known


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## Kal (22 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> A bird in Ottawa tells me the trial is over and the winner is known



Did this bird happen to mention anything else, or is it strictly forbidden?  Besides, if 'nothing' else was said, an expert such as yourself must be able to 'speculate' and add your 'opinion' to which weapon and caliber would be most viable, right?


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## KevinB (23 Mar 2005)

calibre is .338 Lapua Magnum

Rifle is   :-X


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## greentips (23 Mar 2005)

:-X



			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> calibre is .338 Lapua Magnum
> 
> Rifle is   :-X
> 
> :-X :-X ;D


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## Nervous sheep (24 Mar 2005)

big bad john said:
			
		

> The Accuracy International .338 Lapua Long Range Rifle is a very accurate single shot rifle which is effective to 1200 metres. The 0.338 round from this weapon is capable of penetrating light armour and is a very effective suppressive weapon system. Each Commando Unit has 12 LRLCRs
> 
> The .50 calibre Barrett is a single shot bolt action rifle. The large calibre round used with this weapon makes it particularly useful in the anti-material role. The Barrett's maximum effective range is up to 2000metres.
> 
> ...



i dont think the barrett is a bolt action.
it's more of a semi-auto


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## Duke (24 Mar 2005)

Depends on the Model number:

The 95M is bolt action.

Duke


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## Kal (24 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> The McMillan Tac-50 is not technically the LRSWS - there is an upxomign LRSWS trial (when who knows - I guess when DLR goes out canvassing as a charity for $) - the 750gr AMAX round is a .50BMG round used for antipers usage in the Tac50.   It has not been type classified a C series weapon.



Well, if the MRSWS weapon is to be .338, what will the LRSWS weapon be?  What will happen with the McMillian then, strictly counter sniper and anti-material rifle?


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## Ex-Dragoon (26 Mar 2005)

> i dont think the barrett is a bolt action.
> it's more of a semi-auto





> Depends on the Model number:
> 
> The 95M is bolt action.



I think someone needs to do a bit more research before commenting.


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## KevinB (26 Mar 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> Well, if the MRSWS weapon is to be .338, what will the LRSWS weapon be?   What will happen with the McMillian then, strictly counter sniper and anti-material rifle?



.50BMG
  - Long range Anti-Pers, HTI etc.

I am pretty sure the rifle submittred will be the Mac Tac, PGW's .50, FN Hecate, Barrett M107, EDM ARMS Windrunner (the original favourite of the guy who did up the IOR (Immediate Operational Requirement - pre 9/11... so much for IMMEDIATE eh...) and more - I was going to list the AI but until there receivership issues are worked out they are dead in the watter for contracts.


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## Navalsnpr (26 Mar 2005)

I thought the ones submitted for the trial were:

AI AWP
Sig Blaster LSR2
FN PGM mini-Hecate
PGWDTI Coyote
RPA BMF
Sako TRG 41
PGW Timberwolf


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## KevinB (26 Mar 2005)

MRSWS yes


I was talking about the upcoming LRSWS trial - MRSWS is done dude - toime to make up new rumours about the next trial  ;D


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## Navalsnpr (26 Mar 2005)

Ahhh...So true....

Forgot about the LRSWS trial being commissioned....

 8)


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## Duke (26 Mar 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I think someone needs to do a bit more research before commenting.



Sorry if the information is incorrect, but I was quoting from the Barrett Web Page:  "The 95M is one of the most unique and innovative bolt-action rifles available to date...an unconventional design from an unconventional company. The 95M borrows the best of its features from its counterpart, the semi-automatic  M-107"

http://www.barrettrifles.com/military.htm

Duke


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## Kal (26 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> .50BMG
> - Long range Anti-Pers, HTI etc.
> 
> I am pretty sure the rifle submittred will be the Mac Tac, PGW's .50, FN Hecate, Barrett M107, EDM ARMS Windrunner (the original favourite of the guy who did up the IOR (Immediate Operational Requirement - pre 9/11... so much for IMMEDIATE eh...) and more - I was going to list the AI but until there receivership issues are worked out they are dead in the watter for contracts.



Still confused.  What will happen to the McMillian if another rifle is chosen, say the Barrett?  Also, why would another contract be put forth since the McMillian is already operational?


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## Ex-Dragoon (26 Mar 2005)

You were not *Duke*...your post was quoted to illustrate why *nervous sheep * needed to do more research as you proved him quite wrong. More of an example why someone should have stayed in his own lane so to say.


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## Duke (26 Mar 2005)

Ahhh,

Gotcha!

Please forgive a penitent noob.

Duke


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## KevinB (28 Mar 2005)

Kal,

 The Mc does not do all of what some want.  It was adopted since it was in use in "another part" of the CF (I'll let you fill in the blank)


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## Kal (28 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Kal,
> 
> The Mc does not do all of what some want. It was adopted since it was in use in "another part" of the CF (I'll let you fill in the blank)



Ahhh, I got ya'.  You mean like the reserves right? ;D


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## KevinB (29 Mar 2005)

You got it...


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## Britney Spears (29 Mar 2005)

So the Macmillans are going to be handed down to the militia? 

Just like the Leopards?


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## gottyfunk (14 Apr 2005)

from what i heard the death star is issued and it travells at 200000 fps and that it can smell you from across the ocean. Actually i just wanted to say we all dont have a need to know, and i hope the good guys have the right rifle to dump targets at what ever range be it a .22 or a .50 or what ever, its the man behind the rifle not the rifle.Without proper fieldcraft your a big bulls eye.


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## Britney Spears (14 Apr 2005)

Wow, I nominate you for the "Nonsense post of the week" award.


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## gottyfunk (14 Apr 2005)

well iam sorta an idiot ...............i except that  ;D just saying without proper fieldcraft its all moot point.


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## MrWhyt (19 Apr 2005)

PGW Defence Technologies (formerly Prairie Gun Works) is reporting on their website (http://www.pgwdti.com/) that they've been awarded the MRSWS contract, presumably for their .338 Timberwolf.


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## KevinB (19 Apr 2005)

Yes


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## quebecownage (8 May 2005)

great for them i'd liketo handle myself a timberwolf

any of u knows how it costs and if its prohibited in canada?


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## KevinB (8 May 2005)

Cost is about $10k with all the bells and whistles(less suppressor) - all you need is a valid PAL - they are non restricted.


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## MG34 (9 May 2005)

Yup I'm gonna need another tour to pay the bills on that one.


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## Gunnerlove (9 May 2005)

Beautiful rifle, almost makes punching holes in a paper plate at 1000m boring. At $6- $13 a round it is not the cheapest weapon to feed. Keep that in mind if you are planning on buying one.


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## MG34 (9 May 2005)

Trust me when I say I know what I am getting into.


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## LordOsborne (9 May 2005)

what prompted the decision to adopt the new .338 Lapua magnum round? was it changing doctrine, like acknowledging the need to have more penetration through body armour? or was it better performance in general? 

just curious.. thanks,
Pat


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## Suter_A (10 May 2005)

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum here but I have found confirmation on the selection for a new rifle:

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-mrsws.htm

It is in fact the Prairie Gun Works Timberwolf in .338 Lapua


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## MG34 (10 May 2005)

A bit late on that one there Suter_A,  next time use the search function or hell read the entire topic before posting stuff that has already been discussed.


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## KevinB (11 May 2005)

Thx - both MG34 and I know PGW...


 :


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## Suter_A (11 May 2005)

I did read the entire thread...I was providing a link to an official site declaring the decision made and confirming which rifle was chosen. I am aware that a link to another part of the same site was provided but sometimes finding the information on government sites is a pain.


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## -rb (11 May 2005)

Suter_A said:
			
		

> I did read the entire thread...I was providing a link to an *official site * declaring the decision made and confirming which rifle was chosen. I am aware that a link to another part of the same site was provided but sometimes finding the information on *government sites * is a pain.



For you it looks like even finding the dnd site is challenging, the link you posted is to a Simon Fraser University site, hence the www.sfu.ca domain name. The Canadian American Strategic Review (CASR) department and its DND 101 overview has no direct ties with DND that I am aware of. 

cheers.


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## KevinB (11 May 2005)

yukon - exactly.

PGWDTI has a website - PGWDTI

Steve and Ross have been good enough to update their site.


They both are great guys and in shooting events across the country they are very accomodating to all (civilians and military people) and will let you shoot their wares if you ask.  They will also undertake metal work projects on behalf of units etc. to make things work...


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## Suter_A (13 May 2005)

Hey I was just trying to add another source for confirmation. I do know the DND site quite well btw...I've actually emailed the webmaster about a few broken links...so don't say I can't find the DND site. I never actually said it was tied to DND either...I'll admit I was wrong that it was governemt but I said nothing of DND anywhere.


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## 1feral1 (13 May 2005)

Its nice to see a western Canadian province getting a contract as sweet as this, and as far as I know, its the first domestic small arms manufacturing for the CF outside of the traditional eastern Canadian facilities ever.

Excellent, and all the best to PGW!

Cheers,

Wes


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## Jordan (30 May 2005)

so with what rifle was this done with? The farthest recorded kill?

2450 metres, thats CRAZY, that guy knew what he was doing


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## Spr.Earl (30 May 2005)

The interim weapon we bought.


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## GO!!! (30 May 2005)

The 2450m kill was a round that bounced off of the engine block of the vehicle being targeted, hitting and killing the driver - just like the sniper planned


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## quebecownage (1 Jun 2005)

yeah right where diud u get that info dude


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## GO!!! (3 Jun 2005)

From the guys that were there - they are in my unit - read my profile - any more questions?


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## KevinB (3 Jun 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> From the guys that were there - they are in my unit - read my profile - any more questions?



Well other than your DIN account saying where you are in 3VP   ;D

 You profile here is relatively vacant - and I dont have an issue with that (not that its up to me anyway).

 You left out the guy had a sandbag and IIRC it was the 3rd or 4th round...
Regardless it is outstanding shooting getting harasign rounds at that range - mirage,wind, coreollis effect etc. play out there (I put CE in for those that paid attention to Dean's HTI lectures  and those who range by theodolite milling etc.)


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## GO!!! (3 Jun 2005)

For harassing fire at further than the max effective range of the wpn it was indeed excellent shooting, but according to the info I have been given, the guy witht the bag was a different tgt. 

Having said that, the sniper cell has had a complete change of personnel since then, and the details of many events from that tour seem to get better with additional tellings


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## glock17 (30 Jun 2005)

Has anybody fired the Timberwolf?  I wish the Blaser wasn't a loaner, very pricey.


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Jul 2005)

With the Timberwolf being selected any word on what they will do with the C3A1s?


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## Navalsnpr (4 Jul 2005)

If they are smart, they will kept the weapon as a training tool as the ammunition isn't as expensive


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## KevinB (4 Jul 2005)

Twolf and CoyoTi are awesome they nicely lent them out here a year or so ago...

 C3A1's are getting mothballed from what I heard - parts are impossible to come by with PH gone...


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## pappy (17 Jul 2005)

in my opinion, the .338 is a medium to long range anti-personel (600m to 1200m), where the .50 is long range anti-material (out to 2500m =/-)

granted some trained snipers have taken out men with a .50 from 1500m+ (i.e. the MoH winning Canadians that where with the US Rangers) at those ranges it's mostly anti-material.  So hats off to those that can put one center mass at that range on something the size of a man...
see enclosed pic of shooting position #6 at 1000m..... dat be a long way.  

The .338 says super sonc out past that.  7.62x51NATO starts dropping sub-sonic at about 800-900m depending on ammo type, once the bullet starts passing back into the sub-sonic funny things happen down range.  The .338 packs a nice kick at those ranges.
Not likely the .50 will replace turn-bolts in the 7.62 to .338 range, just too heavy and too harsh on the shooter.



			
				thomastmcc said:
			
		

> hi so whats the differnence between the .338 long range rifle and the .50 cal ,i know its different ammo but whats the ranges ,power etc .
> 
> thomas


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## GO!!! (17 Jul 2005)

pappy,

I have been told that the Lapua is a more effective weapon at longer ranges due to the flatter trajectory and faster round, in comparison to the .50, which has such a high arc and neccessity to compensate, and is more susceptible to wind/atmospheric conditions/etc.

Do you consider this to be an issue?


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## KevinB (17 Jul 2005)

GO!!! - QM and I talked about the .338 - he wished he had it in Afghan due to the reasons you gave, and the weight to carry it...

 The .50 with the Mk211 Raufos round can carry a payload (HE) so you get much better HTI/ADM results.

 'Some guys' where fooling with .408CheyTac rumour has it they got some pretty long kills - but they dont talk...


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## Ex-Dragoon (19 Jul 2005)

> granted some trained snipers have taken out men with a .50 from 1500m+ (i.e. the MoH winning Canadians that where with the US Rangers) at those ranges it's mostly anti-material.



Medal of Honour???


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## KevinB (21 Jul 2005)

I suspect he misspoke and meant BSV's


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## pappy (22 Jul 2005)

opps typing faster then I was thinking.... or the irish whiskey sorry, not the MOH  :-[

Yeah I agree the .338 has much better down range performance then a 7.62NATO that's a given.  The biggest factor is the guy pulling the trigger, we just don't teach long range shooting skills except for the few and far between snipers.  I agree with everyone that thinks there should be a range of weapons available to trained sniper teams.  I just don't think giving up on a smaller lighter weight weapon (7.62NATO) is a smart option.  Not all battles, i.e. sniping will be done in the long ranges we're seeing in Iraq and Afgainistan.  Granted that is our current focus these days.  Each caliber choice has it's disadvantages and advantages, let's make sure we're giving the sniper comunity ALL the tools they need, not limiting them to a few big-bore choices.  Weight is becoming a large factor today.  But that being said, Body armor is becoming much more commonplace and something with a little added impact downrange is nice to have at hand.  

One, and probably not a big concern, of the .338 or any other non-military round is availability on the battle field.  It's nice to think the supply boys will keep up and always have all the ammo the Sniper teams need, but what if?   (or better said WHEN) With 7.62NATO one can rob the machine gunners (since the 7.62NATO MAG58/M240 series can't be replaced with the M249 in my opinion).  Same goes with the .50 cal family of sniper rifles.  Granted this belt-fed ammo ain't match grade, it still reaches out there further then one can swing an empty .338.

Without ammo, it's just a club.  

Bigger isn't always better, bigger rifles have bigger recoils, bigger dust signatures, and the all important weight, weight and weight.

I'm not saying the folks the guys on the pointed end of the spear are shooting at aren't good, but if we face an even more determined, beter armed, more numorous enemy with our supply lines slow or cut it will limit the snipers options.  Granted a well trained sniper with ANY weapon is a threat.  Flexibility is key.

Combined Arms should be the better choice for very long range sniping.  There is nothing better then watching 8" howitzers friing for effect.  No need to clean your weapon afterwards ethier, or giving away your position.  I had the pleasure of watching some 16" HE land on targets in Hooterville oh so many years ago, one never forgets the effects of counter-sniper ops with Naval Gunfire.  No need to find the eacact window thier shooting from, you take out the entire building.  

In my humble opinion I'd rather carry a 7.62NATO, a nice laser rangerfinder/GPS and a radio with the Arty on the other end then hump a big ass fifty.  But that me.  Hitting something with a .50 or arty, I'll take the arty anyday.  HE fuse quick will kick up body parts better then a .50 cal.  

If one is sniping at a group of vehicals at 2000-3000m away, why give them the chance to scatter on foot or in surviving vehicals when you can "scattering" the whole mess of them at once with a simple call for some arty.  

But bottom line, give the sniper comunity everything they want and all the ammo they can ever hope to shoot be it 5.56mm to 2000lbs Mk82's.


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## Evocatus (23 Jul 2005)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1026271952413_269


Cdn snipers lauded as experts in Afghan action

Canadian Press

A world-record shot by a Canadian sniper detachment could never have been made with the ammunition they were issued when they left Edmonton last winter, the triggerman said in a recent interview.

The Canadian .50-calibre rounds have a maximum range of between 2,200 and 2,300 metres. The U.S. rounds, they discovered, "fly farther, faster," said Cpl. "Bill", a 26-year-old native of Fogo Island, Nfld. The two-man Canadian team, coupled with American Sgt. Zevon Durham of Greenville, S.C., made the kill from 2,430 metres on the second shot. The first blew a bag from the hand of their target, an al-Qaida fighter walking on a road.

"He didn't even flinch," said Bill, who spoke to The Canadian Press on condition that his real name not be used.

"We made a correction and the next round hit exactly where we wanted it to. Well, a bit to the right."

The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.

Soldier of Fortune magazine estimated the number of kills made by the Canadians after talking to several U.S. soldiers in Kandahar for a cover story in its August edition.

The snipers themselves will not confirm the figure.

But judging from accounts given by Canadians involved in the first major coalition offensive of the Afghan war, the figure of at least 20 sounds conservative.

Outfitted with British desert fatigues and an array of equipment from all over the world, the five Canadians divided into two detachments earned the respect of their American brothers-in-arms after helping rescue dozens of paratroopers pinned down by enemy fire.

The five have been nominated for one of the highest awards given by the United States military - the Bronze Star, two of them with Vs for Valor, marking exceptional bravery.

Awarding of the American medal, which was to have been done at a ceremony along with other Anaconda veterans in Kandahar in April, has been delayed by Canadian protocol officials.

But more important to the Canadians are the gestures from their American brethren who, while nearly killing them several times over with friendly fire, owe many lives to their shooting skills.

"They trusted us to do our job, without question," said Master Cpl. "James", a 31-year-old native of Kingsville, Ont., who also asked that his identity not be revealed.

At one point during a series of battles, one of the Canadians was without his rifle. Enemy bullets were hitting the earth all around.

Mortars were dropping in front and behind them, some within 10 metres, bracketing their position and getting closer all the time.

"They really hammered us," said Bill.

He tried to get to their rifles but couldn't. Finally, an American sniper tossed him his rifle and said: "Here, you know how to use this better than I do."

They held off the enemy until darkness descended and they escaped.

"They were instrumental in helping us achieve our goals out there," said 1st Lieut. Justin Overbaugh, 25, of Missoula, Mont., the soldier who recommended Bill and James for Bronze Stars.

"They are professionals; they are very good at what they do; they train hard, they are very mature, they are tactically and technically proficient so when it came time to do business, they were on," he said.

"If they told me I was going out right now, I'd be begging, kicking, screaming, crying for them to come with us."
Bill and James said they pulled off several shots from 2,400 metres or more.

"Shots out that far are 60 per cent skill and 40 per cent luck, or vice versa," said Bill. "Usually, it takes two or three rounds, sometimes five.

"Normally, a sniper wouldn't take that many shots, but they were out so far we felt confident they couldn't tell where we were."

At daybreak one morning, the two Canadians were set up overlooking a compound when al-Qaida fighters started "pouring out of buildings like ants."

Bill started shooting while James called in a mortar attack, followed by B-52, F-16 and Apache helicopter strikes.
In a separate incident, Bill and James found themselves looking up at a large dark object screaming out of the sky directly above them.

It was a 220-kilogram American bomb.

"We hit the deck and covered our heads with our hands," said James.

The bomb landed 30 metres away, nose in, and never went off.

Bill and James looked at each other in disbelief.

"By the grace of God, it was a dud," said Bill. "It landed 15 metres from the B company (U.S. 101st Airborne Division) trenches. A guy got up, walked out of the trench and kicked the thing."

On another occasion, an Apache fired a missile right over their heads. It slammed into a rock wall 200 metres behind them. The snipers took it all in stride.

"Unless you have walked in their shoes or been part of a Special Forces unit, you cannot understand the closeness in proximity that a sniper is to the enemy," said Capt. Paul Madej, Operation Enduring Freedom chaplain, who debriefed the Canadians.

"The Canadian snipers are professional, well-trained soldiers who walk into harm's way and fulfilled their mission. They represent the best and they have our respect."


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## Britney Spears (23 Jul 2005)

WOW, an article from Jul. 2002? You're a little late to the game, arn't you?


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## Argyll (24 Jul 2005)

pappy said:
			
		

> ...one never forgets the effects of counter-sniper ops with Naval Gunfire.   No need to find the eacact window thier shooting from, you take out the entire building...
> 
> 
> And when there are non-combatants living in that building as well?  The excuse that it's them or us is not a viable answer either because as soldiers we've accepted the responsibility of being in the line of fire, they haven't and shouldn't be blown to shit just because some coward on the other side of the line decided to use their house or school or temple as his/her hide.
> ...


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## Blakey (24 Jul 2005)

Evocatus said:
			
		

> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1026271952413_269


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## pappy (24 Jul 2005)

Adair said:
			
		

> pappy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ex-Dragoon (21 Jul 2007)

Just asked by a friend what the status on the Timnerwolf is. Has it completely replaced the C3A1?


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## KevinB (23 Jul 2007)

Sort of,
  MG34 maybe able to clarify more -- we went shooting with a few people last weekend.
One of the in the know guys stated that PGW would soon be rebuilding C3A1's into a .308/7.62x51 C-14 trainer so the .338LM C-14 does not bankrupt the army both in ammo and shotout barrels.


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## HItorMiss (23 Jul 2007)

In terms of use in Sniper Det on operations yes the TimberWolf has replaced the C3. However the C3 is still being used as a DM system within the Coy's. And as I6 pointed out that program is in effect as well.


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## KevinB (23 Jul 2007)

It cant possible be a DM rifle   -as DLR has stated we have no need


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## HItorMiss (23 Jul 2007)

What DLR doesn't know......


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## Ex-Dragoon (23 Jul 2007)

Thanks for the update guys.


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Sort of,
> MG34 maybe able to clarify more -- we went shooting with a few people last weekend.
> One of the in the know guys stated that PGW would soon be rebuilding C3A1's into a .308/7.62x51 C-14 trainer so the .338LM C-14 does not bankrupt the army both in ammo and shotout barrels.



good lord, that sounds almost like an intelligent thing to do, are you sure this is our army we are talking about?


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## Greymatters (24 Jul 2007)

I thought all the old C3's were pretty much out of service, except a few for shooting teams?


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## Fusaki (24 Jul 2007)

> I thought all the old C3's were pretty much out of service, except a few for shooting teams?



They're recently been pushed out to rifle coys for use overseas.


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## DirtyDog (26 Jul 2007)

A few of ours are in there:


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