# KAC M5 RAS



## DirtyDog (20 Oct 2007)

Is the KAC M5 RAS (http://www.knightarmco.com/mod_weapons_1.htm) the best solution for one wanting to add front rails to a C7?  It'd be nice to ditch the slip ring and all that but i'm guessing that'd be frowned upon. Is the M5 the best compromise?  

Also, is there any other manufactures of something akin or is the KAC worth spending the big $ on?


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## KevinB (20 Oct 2007)

KAC's RAS is the gold standard in drop in rails.
  However shortly a lot of others will pop up as KAC's pattent protection has expired.

 Picatinny is farming out production for the US mil and will no longer be buying 1500 M5 a month for M16A4's and 2000 a month for M4's


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## MG34 (21 Oct 2007)

The Surefire rail system is comparable in quality but not as pricey. I used an M5 on my rifle in A'stan, rock solid and durable


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## DirtyDog (21 Oct 2007)

Where can I find either in Canada?  Would talking to the guys at Wolverine be my best bet?  what about having a friend in the US buy them them ship them to me privately?


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## FullMetalParka (22 Oct 2007)

I'm not sure Wolverine can get the KAC stuff. On their website, KAC is not listed under the name brands that they can get. However, I know of one company that can import any legal firearm accessory (or firearm, for that matter,) but I can't recall the name at the moment. Ask around at this website (http://www.canadiangunnutz.com)


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## MG34 (22 Oct 2007)

The Shooting Edge in Calgary sells KAC RIS/RAS


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## Bzzliteyr (24 Oct 2007)

Or wait until you get in theater.. ask around and "find" one and put it on your rifle..  a lot less expensive...


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## MG34 (24 Oct 2007)

Less expensive, but none too smart, as you don't know the condition and quality of the gear, not good when it attaches to your bang stick.
  I find it very confusing when some fools put money first when considering buying kit that you have to potentially  rely on with your life. I guess I value mine more than some as I get new kit before each tour, the stuff used on the previous one gets rotated into training stock.


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## Bzzliteyr (25 Oct 2007)

When the "found" piece comes wrapped in it's plastic... you can be fairly confident in it's condition..


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## MG34 (25 Oct 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> When the "found" piece comes wrapped in it's plastic... you can be fairly confident in it's condition..



Yes...stolen property


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## DirtyDog (25 Oct 2007)

Yeah, I think I would rather get sqaured away with quality, legit kit in Canada beforehand, then counting on "finding" something in theatre.  It's not THAT much money.....


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## Loachman (25 Oct 2007)

I e-mailed KAC last week and their only Canadian dealer is

R. NICHOLLS DISTRIBUTORS INC.
2475 DE LA PROVINCE
LONGGUEUIL, QUEBEC
CANADA  J4G 1G3.

Nicholls Police & Security Store
Address : 3200 Dufferin Street, North York, ON M6A 3B2
Telephone : 416-285-0103

apparently also carries KAC stuff. Judging by the name, they may be the same business. I didn't get a chance to phone until after the Toronto shop had closed for the day, though.


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## KevinB (26 Oct 2007)

I "may" be able to get you what you want from KAC 
  The retail is IIRC $325 USD

 R.Nicholls does not sell to the public (of which they inc. individual members) and their pricing reflects a $.66 dollar.


FWIW - I'm not a big fan of the Surefire rails - Big Red had one and tried to give it away  to the Army and they where not too interested...


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## Bzzliteyr (26 Oct 2007)

Okay, this is how it goes:

Drive around KAF until you find a US unit.. find their armourer and knock on the door.  Ask the armourer is they have any KAC rails for the M4s they own.  He either says yes or no.  If he says yes, you ask him if you can have one.  If he says yes again, you take it and go on your merry way.  If he says no, then you are no worse off than you already were.  It took me a couple of weeks but I finally got the time to ask around.  If he asks you if you have anything cool to trade, you tell him you are Canadian... he'll understand.


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## ArmyRick (26 Oct 2007)

Too bad, troops should be issued what they need.


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## ArmyRick (26 Oct 2007)

I was having a look around on the Knight arm co web site and I was curious if anybody could tell me how the modern day stoner LMG fairs out and what makes it different from the c9/minimi series?


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## MG34 (26 Oct 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Okay, this is how it goes:
> 
> Drive around KAF until you find a US unit.. find their armourer and knock on the door.  Ask the armourer is they have any KAC rails for the M4s they own.  He either says yes or no.  If he says yes, you ask him if you can have one.  If he says yes again, you take it and go on your merry way.  If he says no, then you are no worse off than you already were.  It took me a couple of weeks but I finally got the time to ask around.  If he asks you if you have anything cool to trade, you tell him you are Canadian... he'll understand.



Or you buy your own in Canada ,train with and learn what affects if any there is on loss of zero for PAQ 4 and PEQ 2A, optics ,etc. Get used to vert grip placement (close to the magwell or further out),and what if any effect it will have on your stance and current muscle memory,learn how to properly install the item  Most importantly have it ready to deploy to the field with immediately not wasting any time begging for kit that our allies are issued for their own troops use.
 BTW if your new found US Army armourer buddy is busted handing out kit to non US personnel,he can face discliplinary actions (happened on our tour), no need to put them in that position to save a few bucks that tour pay will cover off anyways.


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## DirtyDog (26 Oct 2007)

MG34 said:
			
		

> Or you buy your own in Canada ,train with and learn what affects if any there is on loss of zero for PAQ 4 and PEQ 2A, optics ,etc. Get used to vert grip placement (close to the magwell or further out),and what if any effect it will have on your stance and current muscle memory,learn how to properly install the item  Most importantly have it ready to deploy to the field with immediately not wasting any time begging for kit that our allies are issued for their own troops use.
> BTW if your new found US Army armourer buddy is busted handing out kit to non US personnel,he can face discliplinary actions (happened on our tour), no need to put them in that position to save a few bucks that tour pay will cover off anyways.


Not to mention a M4 RAS will fit somewhat oddly on a 20inch C7.


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## Loachman (26 Oct 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> R.Nicholls does not sell to the public (of which they inc. individual members) and their pricing reflects a $.66 dollar.



R Nicholls is the head office, which is probably why they do not. I called Nicholls Police & Security Store (3200 Dufferin Street, North York, ON M6A 3B2 416-285-0103) today and confirmed that they are a branch of that business and that they would sell to me. My main inquiry was about Safariland 6004 holsters. I also asked if they carried KAC stuff and, while the person to whom I was speaking sometimes appeared confused, he did eventually confirm that they carried KAC stuff (more or less "if the head office has it, then we can get it") although he didn't think that they had any KAC products actually in stock. The shop is not open on weekends, so I won't have a chance to pop in there to poke around until early to mid-December. There's also apparently one in Ottawa, according to a Squadron-mate. He says that the Ottawa shop offers discounts to police and military, but the Toronto one only offers a discount to police. I did not ask about that when I called.


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## KevinB (27 Oct 2007)

Well well well - learn something new everyday -- Nicholls used to make one either make a unit order - or have a local dealer order for you.
  Its all part of Bob Nicholl's octopus


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## MG34 (27 Oct 2007)

The Ottawa branch is hit or miss depending on what drone is working behind the counter.Some days you can get Surefire,EOTech etc from them but on other days they refuse to sell 5.11 gear (before they were dropped) unless you had a departmental letterhead or a DND account.


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## Loachman (27 Oct 2007)

MG34 said:
			
		

> drone



Seems to be an apt description of the fellow to whom I spoke. Not terribly knowledgeable.


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## MG34 (28 Oct 2007)

It ain't made of plastic, the M4 and M5 RAS are precision machined aluminium made to take a greater amount of abuse than any thing we have issued to hand equipment from a rifle/carbine. Knowledge is power learn what the adults are talking about before you speak. :


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## Kendrick (28 Oct 2007)

With all this rail talk, anyone has a good alternative for C7 rails with an issued M203?  I would've liked the KAS rails, but can't attach the M203 with them.  Unless I'd go with an M203 rail attachment systems.  Anyone has ideas?  I'm looking in Infidel's general direction... hehe

Also, MG34, as for training with kit like that, I am sure you realize that not all units "allow" such equipment, most especially in training, and some are more anal than others about it.  For example, on this roto we were not even able to wear in our tan boots in training, let alone any extra kit like chest rigs or rifle attachments, and even now in theater, we get charged for not using the Bianchi POS holsters.  So not everyone can actually use proper training to try out kit before hand, and have to try it out "under the radar" while on op, till somebody gets caught somewhere with it, and then have to revert to POS issued stuff.  I was actually frowned upon for having a black upper handguard and a black scope cover, even though it was given to me by the camp's armourer.


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## KevinB (28 Oct 2007)

The lower section of the KAC RAS (M4 or M5) are removeable so the M203 can attach -- int eh case of the Diemaco CF M203A1 - you need to remove the plastic segment of the "standard" handguard with the two bolts that attach it.  After that it works very well (these have to be removed anyway to move the system between C8 and C7 platforms so they dont make much sence except to the tool that designed the system...


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## MG34 (28 Oct 2007)

Kendrick said:
			
		

> With all this rail talk, anyone has a good alternative for C7 rails with an issued M203?  I would've liked the KAS rails, but can't attach the M203 with them.  Unless I'd go with an M203 rail attachment systems.  Anyone has ideas?  I'm looking in Infidel's general direction... hehe
> 
> Also, MG34, as for training with kit like that, I am sure you realize that not all units "allow" such equipment, most especially in training, and some are more anal than others about it.  For example, on this roto we were not even able to wear in our tan boots in training, let alone any extra kit like chest rigs or rifle attachments, and even now in theater, we get charged for not using the Bianchi POS holsters.  So not everyone can actually use proper training to try out kit before hand, and have to try it out "under the radar" while on op, till somebody gets caught somewhere with it, and then have to revert to POS issued stuff.  I was actually frowned upon for having a black upper handguard and a black scope cover, even though it was given to me by the camp's armourer.



Your unit must have some weak NCOs then if these training issues were not sorted prior to your deployment, or upon arrival in theater. The push on the kit issue has to come from the bottom up as the dinosaurs at the yop don't understand or fear the change.


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## Kendrick (29 Oct 2007)

MG34:  Yeah I can understand that point.  Honestly I have no idea where the problem is coming from.  My direct superiors support us for using "proper" gear, but there's a few people getting charged about it.  We try as much as we can, but it's not going up obviously.  It's quite frustrating actually.  

Infidel: Thanks for the info, much appreciated.


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## MG34 (29 Oct 2007)

We fought the same fight here, but your WO and Sgts have to ush the item constantly up the chain for thngs to change. We even brought in vendors to put on displays and answer questions and concerns from the higher ups.


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## Bzzliteyr (30 Oct 2007)

Yet, here I am.. in theater.. with two rigs sitting in my turret bustle.. my issue tacvest (to be worn when people care) and then the HSGI rig I had handed on to me.. (which I didn't pay for, nor train with which makes me a bad person.  I use it for when I get off my vehicle and want to have mags handy)  I also hide the mods on my rifle that I couldn't train with before deployment as I had the standard C8 (that's C8 without and A1-A2 etc on it, you know, with the iron sights and teeny barrel) though the photo techs during the work up training had the C8FTHB with EOtech.. my fault?

I can't see how all this makes myself and Kendrick bad people in your eyes MG34.. but we try our best to make do with what we have.. it's unfortunate it has come to it.. and I hope you don't have the same problems, but I fear you may.  Maybe your rank will alleviate the difficulties, but for us bottom feeders, it's no help when you have no support from your chain of command.. they repeat the same drivel that is passed down from higher.. sorry.

Back to work..


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## JBoyd (31 Oct 2007)

I really have no understanding of the items/components you fellows are talking about; However I do want to point something out.

I have rock climbed for close to 10 years, and if its one thing I know, if something is going to be holding your life in its hands you better well make damn sure that it is top quality and that you can trust it. That can go for anything.. anywhere no matter what it is or what the situation is.


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## KevinB (4 Nov 2007)

For futher edification
KAC M5 RAS on C7A1













KAC M4 RAS on Colt M4A1 upper (on C7 with collapsible stock)





KAC RAS systems on CF gear 




Not sure if my ARF photohoster works here anymore - so the last 3 pics may not show up.

The rail system gives an aprox 20% greater cooling rate to the barrel - it provides greater stability for accessories, and also it gives the operatro the ability to position the accessories where he feels is best.

More later


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## medaid (4 Nov 2007)

where's that first pic taken?  and whose that character in the CAD?  ;D


nice RAS pics... loving RAS...


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## KevinB (4 Nov 2007)

G-8 K country --  had to use an ELCAN


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## Simonov (31 Dec 2007)

The M5 RAS is a very versatile piece of kit. Top rail will even provide zero retention for any optics.


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