# Kilts and pants?



## canada94 (29 Sep 2010)

I was just wondering weather highlander Regiments are issued both Kilts and Pants for parade, or just kilts. 

Thank you, 

Mike

I just realized I did not put this in the right section (should be unifrom's, which i swear i clicked) But in advance, sorry.


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## Davionn (30 Sep 2010)

Nope,

The unit issues the kilt, and the fact that the tunic is "cut away", means that you couldn't wear issued pants even if you aquired some.  That would look pretty silly.

Closest thing is a set of trews, but as far as I know, most units do not issue (or wear) them for parades.  



D


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## Redeye (30 Sep 2010)

The only people I've seen in trews were in Mess Kit.



			
				Davionn said:
			
		

> Nope,
> 
> The unit issues the kilt, and the fact that the tunic is "cut away", means that you couldn't wear issued pants even if you aquired some.  That would look pretty silly.
> 
> ...


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## BDTyre (30 Sep 2010)

And even then only Sergeants and above get mess kit.

The kilt is more comfortable anyway.


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## toughenough (30 Sep 2010)

To be more exact, highlanders are in fact issued pants. The box of goodies that come with DEUs are standard. As much as we'd like to say no, we still are issued pants. We'll simply never wear them. As stated above, the DEU jacket gets cut in a manner that you couldn't wear it with pants even if you wanted to.


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## dangerboy (30 Sep 2010)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> And even then only Sergeants and above get mess kit.



Any rank can get mess kit, you are paying for it out of your own money.  While normally only people that have reached the rank of Sgt get it I have know some guys that got it to be married in.


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## RHFC_piper (30 Sep 2010)

Redeye said:
			
		

> The only people I've seen in trews were in Mess Kit.



The Drum Major for the RHFC wears Trews on parade and technically the RSM is entitled to wear them on parade as well. I believe there are a few other parade positions which are entitled to them, but I really on ever see the Drummy wear them.

At one point, the CoC (for RHFC) were toying with the idea of going back to trews, since the Highland Light Infantry of Canada wore them and our sister regiment wears them.  Either way, trews are still worn with a cut away tunic.

Besides that, we generally don't get issued pants at all. (I have a pair that I ordered from Logistik Unicorp)



			
				toughenough said:
			
		

> To be more exact, highlanders are in fact issued pants. The box of goodies that come with DEUs are standard. As much as we'd like to say no, we still are issued pants. We'll simply never wear them. As stated above, the DEU jacket gets cut in a manner that you couldn't wear it with pants even if you wanted to.



Well... not every unit goes by this; we have a surplus of cut away DEU jackes and if we can't get one to fit, someone orders one of the correct size from Logistik Unicorp and we get it tailored. Everything else (shitrs, tie, etc.) comes out of their initial issue, whether it's done at the unit (ordered from clothing stores) or at brigade clothing.
Even when troops go to brigade clothing stores, they generally don't get pants with initial issue since they're never going to wear them anyway.

Either way, it all depends how initial issue is done and if it's in the order of dress for that highland unit when it comes to whether or not you wear / are issued pants.


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## toughenough (30 Sep 2010)

I stand corrected.

The way Clothing Stores at JFA Hamilton handles it, you get a complete initial issue set of everything (including PT strip, painter hat, over coat, and stuff you actually wear like shirts, tie, jacket, etc).

I believe the logic being that if you CT to the regs, you have in fact been issued pants and french hat. You'd still have to burn points for a new/uncut jacket, but wouldn't have to replace all of the other pieces you'd otherwise be missing.

I can see the logic in not paying to cut jackets every year, and rather use the ones off the shelf from when Pte Bloggins washed out, or that Sgt Bloggins got too fat for.


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## canada94 (30 Sep 2010)

Ah so the upper body part of the uniform wouldn't work with Pants


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## BDTyre (1 Oct 2010)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Any rank can get mess kit, you are paying for it out of your own money.  While normally only people that have reached the rank of Sgt get it I have know some guys that got it to be married in.



Thanks for the clarification.  I guess it makes sense, as for most JR social functions, one wouldn't require mess kit.

My unit used to have a surplus of cut-aways, but when we ran out and guys started getting the LU tunics (we never get issued the pants), the tailor we sent them off to did a different cut than the older ones.  The rumour now is that everyone has to reorder the tunic and get it with the new cut.  Somewhow I don't see that happening before our Centennial at the end of November.

We've also bought up the last of the McKenzie tartan in the world.


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## xena (1 Oct 2010)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> We've also bought up the last of the McKenzie tartan in the world.


Exactly how would that work, as the M_*A*_cKenzie tartan is far from falling out of production?  Or did the unit buy up some rare tartan that they have no need of?


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## The Bread Guy (1 Oct 2010)

Redeye said:
			
		

> The only people I've seen in trews were in Mess Kit.


When the Lake Superior Scottish Regiment had a band of its own, its members wore trews - referred to by those at the pointier end of the org chart as "golf pants"


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## the 48th regulator (1 Oct 2010)

In the 48th, officers wore the trews.

The only NCO that did was the RSM.

Why?  couldn't care less.  I dug the kilt, however the effort was painful getting ready (ironing shirts, polishing shoes and brass) It was freaking hot, and yer calzones sweated, regardless whether you were regimental or not.  However the effort was worth it, chicks dig kilts!!!

Bottom line, I never saw anyone wearing trews that did not have pips or the Canada Post insignia somewhere on the uniform.

Anyways, trews are for for fairies!!!  Real men wear Kilts!

dileas

tess


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## gaspasser (1 Oct 2010)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> In the 48th, officers wore the trews.
> 
> The only NCO that did was the RSM.
> 
> ...



Aye...second that~~~  regimental or not...I like the draft and waft~~~ iper:


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## BDTyre (2 Oct 2010)

xena said:
			
		

> Exactly how would that work, as the M_*A*_cKenzie tartan is far from falling out of production?  Or did the unit buy up some rare tartan that they have no need of?



Thanks for the spelling correction.  We've just ordered a batch of kilts, and the order has used up the last available woolen MacKenzie tartan fabric suitable for making kilts.  It simply means that the mills in Scotland have to produce another run, a process that takes about 8 weeks or so - at least, this is what a kilt maker has told me.  Its not that there will never be anymore, but when you need them in less than two months, 8 weeks is a bit of a wait.


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## tumbling_dice (8 Mar 2011)

On the topic of mess kit, I recently saw a naval officer wearing a mess dress and a kilt.  Assuming that's allowed, is there a specific navy tartan (like RCAF tartan) or is it up to the wearer?


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## Neill McKay (8 Mar 2011)

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> On the topic of mess kit, I recently saw a naval officer wearing a mess dress and a kilt.  Assuming that's allowed, is there a specific navy tartan (like RCAF tartan) or is it up to the wearer?



I remember this being discussed elsewhere a while ago and no evidence could be found of there having been a Canadian naval tartan (although there is a US one).  The closest anyone could come was to an otherwise unidentified tartan used by a somewhat obscure naval P&D band several decades ago.

As far as I'm aware there's no provision in the dress regs for a kilt or associated accoutrements to be worn with naval mess dress.  But I'm really curious: what (apart from the kilt) was the officer wearing that was different from standard mess kit, and do you know what tartan was used?


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## noneck (9 Mar 2011)

Just to clarify Canadian Tire- the Regiment bought the last supply of heavy weight MacKenzie #2. There is plenty of that lightweight skirt material around, but it just doesn't hang as well (or sway)  as the heavier weight wool.

Noneck


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## BDTyre (9 Mar 2011)

Ah yes...I remember hearing Mr. MacDonald complain bitterly about the lighter weight tartan that everyone seems to be making kilts out of these days.


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## Pusser (9 Mar 2011)

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> On the topic of mess kit, I recently saw a naval officer wearing a mess dress and a kilt.  Assuming that's allowed, is there a specific navy tartan (like RCAF tartan) or is it up to the wearer?



No, there  is no naval tartan.  No, kilts are not authorized for wear with naval mess kit.  This doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.  It is not uncommon to see naval officers wearing their family tartan kilts with their mess jackets.  Since our mess jackets are cut short (similar to a Bonny Prince Charlie), it actually works with a kilt.  As with the kilt, their is no common pattern for sporrans, hose or sgian dubhs either.


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## Pusser (9 Mar 2011)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Any rank can get mess kit, you are paying for it out of your own money.  While normally only people that have reached the rank of Sgt get it I have know some guys that got it to be married in.



The proper etiquette is that mess kits are evening wear, so it is only correct to wear mess kit if the wedding is in the evening (i.e. after 1800).  If the ceremony takes place in the morning or afternoon, the correct dress is 1 or 1A. You can change into mess kit for the reception if it occurs after 1800.

Having said this, there are certainly many examples where people have gone against these social guidelines.  They are only guidelines after all(coxswains/RSMs rarely conduct dress patrols at weddings).  Although I sometimes lament  :'( the way our society has relaxed (i.e. chosen to ignore out of some misguided theory about "modernizing") many of the old rules.  I once saw pictures of a guy wearing naval mess kit at an afternoon wedding (mistake #1), with a sword (huge mistake #2) that was hooked up (bordering on unforgivable sin #3)!


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## dapaterson (9 Mar 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> No, there  is no naval tartan.  No, kilts are not authorized for wear with naval mess kit.  This doesn't mean it doesn't happen though.  It is not uncommon to see naval officers wearing their family tartan kilts with their mess jackets.  Since our mess jackets are cut short (similar to a Bonny Prince Charlie), it actually works with a kilt.  As with the kilt, their is no common pattern for sporrans, hose or sgian dubhs either.



Well, someone is selling a "Royal Canadian Navy Tartan" - look at http://www.tartanhousecanada.com/ROYAL-CANADIAN-NAVY-tartan-fabric-65-polyester-35-p/rcnpv.htm

And assuming there isn't a Maritime Command Tartan, it certainly sounds like an endeavour to pursue for some significant milestone.  And since we just missed the centennial, I guess it can wait until the bicentennial in 2110...


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## Danjanou (9 Mar 2011)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Ah yes...I remember hearing Mr. MacDonald complain bitterly about the lighter weight tartan that everyone seems to be making kilts out of these days.



Noticed that when I had one made up for my wedding, just didn't seem to have the heft of my old issue horse blanket. 8)

Now what was that comment earlier re alluding to going regimental being optional?  :rage:


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## Neill McKay (9 Mar 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I once saw pictures of a guy wearing naval mess kit at an afternoon wedding (mistake #1), with a sword (huge mistake #2) that was hooked up (bordering on unforgivable sin #3)!



I've seen such a picture as well (maybe the same one).  The world wonders.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, someone is selling a "Royal Canadian Navy Tartan" - look at http://www.tartanhousecanada.com/ROYAL-CANADIAN-NAVY-tartan-fabric-65-polyester-35-p/rcnpv.htm



That's the one I mentioned above.

Is anyone familiar enough with the organization that regulates such things to be able to find out how official this is?


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## Pusser (9 Mar 2011)

If there is an official RCN tartan, then I stand corrected.  However, the website given above shows an example of a wool/poly blend manufactured in China!  What self respecting Scot would wear anything not made of wool (except maybe Sheena Easton in a vinyl jumpsuit)?  If it ain't scrrratchy it's crrrap!

I believe this website: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/ (the official tartan registry) may be able to solve the mystery, but I can't query it right now.  I  can get on the website, but the firewall won't let me search it.


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## xena (9 Mar 2011)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Is anyone familiar enough with the organization that regulates such things to be able to find out how official this is?



There is no organization that regulates such things.  Sorry.  The closest you'll find is the Scottish Tartan Authority.

http://www.tartansauthority.com/

They REGISTER tartans that people create, but they do not REGULATE them - it's free market capitalism.  With only a handful of exceptions (there are a VERY few modern tartans that are protected by trademark law - eg. the _Balmoral Tartan _ that is privately owned by the British Royal Family!), people can wear any tartan they please.  The idea of having to belong to a certain clan, or family, in order to have the "right" to do so was a marketing ploy of the Sobieski Brothers who authored a rather dubious book on the subject in the Victorian Era.



			
				Danjanou said:
			
		

> Now what was that comment earlier re alluding to going regimental being optional?  :rage:



I don't think it was meant referring to uniform.  Outside of uniform, one may wear the kilt any way one pleases.  There are only rules when worn as part of a military uniform.  Civvies may be worn any way that keeps you comfortable, happy, and not arrested for indecent exposure.   ;D   Kilts included.

For an amazing amount of non-military kilt related info, please feel free to peruse the following website:

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Mar 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The proper etiquette is that mess kits are evening wear, so it is only correct to wear mess kit if the wedding is in the evening (i.e. after 1800).  If the ceremony takes place in the morning or afternoon, the correct dress is 1 or 1A. You can change into mess kit for the reception if it occurs after 1800.
> 
> Having said this, there are certainly many examples where people have gone against these social guidelines.  They are only guidelines after all(coxswains/RSMs rarely conduct dress patrols at weddings).  Although I sometimes lament  :'( the way our society has relaxed (i.e. chosen to ignore out of some misguided theory about "modernizing") many of the old rules.  I once saw pictures of a guy wearing naval mess kit at an afternoon wedding (mistake #1), with a sword (huge mistake #2) that was hooked up (bordering on unforgivable sin #3)!



Tuxedos (which Mess Kit denotes militarily) are also classed as evening wear, more correctly black tie, which has socially replaced white tie. Black tie is traditionally worn after 18:00, or after sundown in the winter months. However most weddings have had tuxedos in one form or another, for ages, and many before 18:00 hrs. I would never lament a person that has spent over $1000.00 dollars to wear _their own_ mess kit on such a special occasion, based on some out of date and hoity toity etiquette.

To wish a return of old ettiquette for something like this would just prove a person to be a 'harumph, harumph, see here old boy' fud. ;D


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## dapaterson (9 Mar 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> To wish a return of old ettiquette for something like this would just prove a person to be a _*'harumph, harumph, see here old boy' fud*_. ;D



I believe the term is fuddy-duddy.


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## xena (9 Mar 2011)

Harrumph!  <ruffles paper in a vigorous fashion>  Hear, hear old chap!  Quite so!

For a while, at least, in the civilian world, all formal events were dinners, hence the belief that all formal wear was evening wear.  Simply not so, old chap.  <ruffles paper once more, and goes back to reading...>


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Mar 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I believe the term is fuddy-duddy.



again with the more formal :facepalm:


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## Neill McKay (9 Mar 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I believe this website: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/ (the official tartan registry) may be able to solve the mystery, but I can't query it right now.  I  can get on the website, but the firewall won't let me search it.



No RCN tartan there, but there are *three* RCAF ones.


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## Danjanou (9 Mar 2011)

xena said:
			
		

> I don't think it was meant referring to uniform.  Outside of uniform, one may wear the kilt any way one pleases.  There are only rules when worn as part of a military uniform.  Civvies may be worn any way that keeps you comfortable, happy, and not arrested for indecent exposure.   ;D   Kilts included.
> 
> For an amazing amount of non-military kilt related info, please feel free to peruse the following website:
> 
> http://www.xmarksthescot.com/



Still sacrilege. I was told one never leaves the Regimental Family ergo one should always be "Regimental." 

You finish your paper, I'll go fire up the outrage bus.


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## xena (9 Mar 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I'll go fire up the outrage bus.



I thought that was VOR'd a while back...


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## Pusser (10 Mar 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Tuxedos (which Mess Kit denotes militarily) are also classed as evening wear, more correctly black tie, which has socially replaced white tie. Black tie is traditionally worn after 18:00, or after sundown in the winter months. However most weddings have had tuxedos in one form or another, for ages, and many before 18:00 hrs. I would never lament a person that has spent over $1000.00 dollars to wear _their own_ mess kit on such a special occasion, based on some out of date and hoity toity etiquette.
> 
> To wish a return of old ettiquette for something like this would just prove a person to be a 'harumph, harumph, see here old boy' fud. ;D



I believe a tuxedo (black tie) is a relatively recent addition to fashion and is actually considered semi-formal.  Mess kit is a step above (i.e. formal) and equates to to white tie (despite usually being worn with a tie that is actually black).  White tie is normally worn with a dinner jacket (as in most mess kits) or tails.  Tuxedo jackets don't fall into either category.  As to the rest, you're right, you can wear anything you like to your own party.  I was just pointing out the standard etiquette, which of course, is subject to change.  What I truly lament is the situations where change goes too far, such as the young gentlemen I once observed at a formal ball in a turtleneck, black jeans and doc martins.  At least everything was black, but it was still inappropriate.


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## Danjanou (10 Mar 2011)

xena said:
			
		

> I thought that was VOR'd a while back...



Nope we cobbled together our pocket change and with the new Cdn Dollar vs Pound Sterling exchange rate managed to get a relatively new one. We're also optioning a long term lease on a Dakota to share with the Walten Commando rapid response team.  8)


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## Neill McKay (10 Mar 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I believe a tuxedo (black tie) is a relatively recent addition to fashion and is actually considered semi-formal.  Mess kit is a step above (i.e. formal) and equates to to white tie (despite usually being worn with a tie that is actually black).  White tie is normally worn with a dinner jacket (as in most mess kits) or tails.  Tuxedo jackets don't fall into either category.



If we want to get right into it, mess *dress* corresponds to white tie which is otherwise known as formal dress (or evening dress).

Mess *undress *corresponds to black tie, also called semi-formal dress.  A tuxedo jacket is a dinner jacket; so is the white jacket sometimes worn with black tie in summer or warm climates.  The tuxedo is of early-to-mid 20th century origin.

In the Canadian navy there is no mess undress with the arguable exception of the concert dress worn by members of the Stad and Naden bands.  Mess dress is used for "white tie" and "black tie" occasions.

In practice, white tie is worn very infrequently.  The vast majority of men will never wear anything more formal than black tie, and even then only occasionally if at all.  In describing the dress for an event any use of the words "formal" or "casual", with or without "semi-" or other qualifiers, is a recipe for confusion.  If you say "formal", real purists will wear white tie, men who care about such things but accept the reality in which we're living might wear black tie, and most of those who either don't know or don't care will wear a suit.  A certain segment of the population will be so far gone as to wear a blazer and whatever colour of pants, or a sweater, or a collared shirt with or without a logo embroidered on it -- depending on their particular perspective on formality.



> What I truly lament is the situations where change goes too far, such as the young gentlemen I once observed at a formal ball in a turtleneck, black jeans and doc martins.  At least everything was black, but it was still inappropriate.



Fully agreed.


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## Brutus (10 Mar 2011)

A note of clarification on the points regarding the trews in the Seaforth Highlanders (and likely other Highland units).

Trews are worn by Sgt and above, but there is nothing written down that says Jrs cannot wear them. The fact they don't is likely a matter of cost (Jrs traditionaly being lighter in the wallter) and supply (the Jrs being typically triple or more in size in membership). There have been a few occasions wear Jrs have worn Trews in the past, for specific reasons.

Trews, in our Unit, are worn at Mess functions (Sgt's & WO's and the Officer's Mess) when Ladies are not present.

The Jrs do in fact have Mess Dress - it is short sleeve order with the green Belt (lovatt hose, brown purse, etc.). IIRC correctly, it is up to each Unit to set Mess Dress, within certain guidelines, and approved by the CO.


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## dapaterson (10 Mar 2011)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> In practice, white tie is worn very infrequently.  The vast majority of men will never wear anything more formal than black tie, and even then only occasionally if at all.  In describing the dress for an event any use of the words "formal" or "casual", with or without "semi-" or other qualifiers, is a recipe for confusion.  If you say "formal", real purists will wear white tie, men who care about such things but accept the reality in which we're living might wear black tie, and most of those who either don't know or don't care will wear a suit.  A certain segment of the population will be so far gone as to wear a blazer and whatever colour of pants, or a sweater, or a collared shirt with or without a logo embroidered on it -- depending on their particular perspective on formality.



And there are those for who "formal" means "I'll wear pants."  Shirt optional.  Like this fine collection of upstanding citizens.


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## xena (10 Mar 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Nope we cobbled together our pocket change and with the new Cdn Dollar vs Pound Sterling exchange rate managed to get a relatively new one. We're also optioning a long term lease on a Dakota to share with the Walten Commando rapid response team.  8)



Excellent!  I look forward to many new outings!



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> And there are those for who "formal" means "I'll wear pants."



Well, that may be true, but the kilt is still a better option.  IMHO, of course.


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## Blackadder1916 (11 Mar 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> tumbling_dice said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While the wearing of a kilt with Canadian naval mess kit is not authorized (though sometimes occurring and perhaps even being tolerated as long as a round of drinks is paid as penance), it appears that the RN did accept the practice.  Whether RN dress regulations were actually changed or if the proposal survived past Jock Slater's tenure as First Sea Lord is unclear.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/navy-lets-scots-officers-wear-kilt-1.459879


> Navy lets Scots officers wear kilt
> 
> By ROB ROBERTSON
> 28 Mar 1996
> ...


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## Danjanou (11 Mar 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And there are those for who "formal" means "I'll wear pants."  Shirt optional.  Like this fine collection of upstanding citizens.



Who said you could post a picture of  the army.ca staff? 8)


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## dapaterson (11 Mar 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Who said you could post a picture of  the army.ca staff? 8)



Is that you in the bottom right hand corner?


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## Journeyman (11 Mar 2011)

It must be an old staff pic -- the redhead relinqushed her Mod powers a while ago


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## Danjanou (11 Mar 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> It must be an old staff pic -- the redhead relinqushed her Mod powers a while ago



No Federal Government Regulations require us to have a Redhead, so we've been making Kyle wear a wig.


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## xena (11 Mar 2011)

Well, if he has to use a wig, then he at least has a soul...  

somewhere...

 :warstory:

<ducks, and awaits incoming...>


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## Journeyman (11 Mar 2011)

xena said:
			
		

> Well, if he has to use a wig, then he at least has a soul...
> 
> somewhere...


Whoa....it's not Kick a Ginger Day.


And if it was, I'd be betting overwhelmingly on the redhead; she can be pretty feisty   :nod:


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## Danjanou (11 Mar 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Whoa....it's not Kick a Ginger Day.
> 
> 
> And if it was, I'd be betting overwhelmingly on the redhead; she can be pretty feisty   :nod:





Kick A Ginger Day is months away

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&biw=1276&bih=818&q=kick+a+ginger+day+&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=f&oq=&fp=ccd0a402b0736d6b



However 











I know I know stop derailing threads....... I'll go back to watching video from Japan now :-[


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## xena (11 Mar 2011)

For the record M'Lord, I suggested kicking no one.  I mused that a non-redhead likely had a soul and nothing else.  Any implications about soul-less-ness of anyone, or any group are purely conjectures of the readers.

 >

<Please don't let Vern kill me!  Please!>


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## Pusser (12 Mar 2011)

"The official recognition of the kilt is one of several changes contained in the Review of Royal Navy Clothing, led by Commander David Hobbs, project officer at the Defence Clothing and Textile Agency. Some changes announced yesterday will save the Navy money. They include the decision to end the tradition of two patterns of naval jacket, one for officers and one for senior ratings. They will now all wear the officer-style jacket. Navy-blue trousers for officers and senior ratings will be identical and a new raincoat will be designed to be worn by all ranks. Trials are to be launched to replace the gold in officers' sleeve lace and on their caps with a synthetic material."

I notice that this article is from 1996.  I certainly hope that the move to replace sleeve lace with a synthetic material died a horrible death.  Now that we've gone back to proper lace on our tunics, it would be ironic if the RN went the direction we did in 1968 and started wearing plastic trash.


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## Tait (27 May 2016)

I have seen multiple mentions of "this question has come up before" but a good dose of searching doesn't find the discussion I was looking for, so hear goes...

I am at the very beginning of a RCAF officer career having formerly served in the British Army. As a Scot, I'm accustomed to my black tie order of dress being the kilt and appropriate accoutrements. I am just about to drop $1300 or so on RCAF mess kit and I also intend to play with my local RCAF pipe band (ie. I will have an issued RCAF tartan kilt) and, naturally, I wondered about wearing the kilt in lieu of trousers with my mess kit. 

Searching this forum and dress regs gives me the impression that the kilt (RCAF tartan or otherwise) is not authorised for RCAF mess kit. Similar to other comments here about RCN mess dress, I hear tell of certain RCAF officers flaunting the rules and donning their highland finery anyway.

Is my interpretation correct? How daring would it be to wear the kilt in defiance of regulation? Do others wear kilts with their mess dress? If so, RCAF tartan? From my very junior position, I assume it would be wise to err on the side of caution.


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## ModlrMike (27 May 2016)

Tait said:
			
		

> From my very junior position, I assume it would be wise to err on the side of caution.



Probably the smartest thing said on these boards in a while.


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## mariomike (27 May 2016)

Tait said:
			
		

> From my very junior position, I assume it would be wise to err on the side of caution.



Don't rock the boat with an employer, especially at the "very beginning" of a career.  ( Probably, the same _unwritten_  rule applies in marriage.   )


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## Tait (27 May 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Don't rock the boat with an employer, especially at the "very beginning" of a career.  ( Probably, the same _unwritten_  rule applies in marriage.   )



Very true! 

Let me rephrase my questions then...

When I'm somewhat more established in position, is kilted attire likely to be more accepted?


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## Remius (27 May 2016)

Not sure.  The dress regs are pretty clear about who can and when they can wear kilts. 

As to what the RCAF does informally and what they tolerate is beyond my knowledge.  

The tartan cummerbund is approved for wear with RCAF mess kit though.


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## Journeyman (27 May 2016)

Tait said:
			
		

> When I'm somewhat more established in position, is kilted attire likely to be more accepted?


You mean once people accept that you like cross-dressing?   



I couldn't decide on the smilie, so:

a)   :stirpot:

b)   

c)   >


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## Tait (27 May 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> You mean once people accept that you like cross-dressing?



Surely the modern military can accommodate my preferences?


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## Journeyman (27 May 2016)

Tait said:
			
		

> Surely the modern military can accommodate my preferences?


Absolutely.    :nod:

I _was_  going to go as far as to mention that, largely due to Operation Honour, you'd even be free of mocking.   ;D 


However, I have no dog in this, and actually don't understand the question;  I didn't know that the Air Force even had dress regs.  :dunno:


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## hugh19 (27 May 2016)

Just a couple of things. Kilts are not permitted with mess dress in the Navy currently. Second point a tartan has been designed for the Navy and is being presented to the National dress committee this week.


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## Blackadder1916 (27 May 2016)

Tait said:
			
		

> . . .
> 
> I am at the very beginning of a RCAF officer career having formerly served in the British Army. As a Scot, I'm accustomed to my black tie order of dress being the kilt and appropriate accoutrements. I am just about to drop $1300 or so on RCAF mess kit and I also intend to play with my local RCAF pipe band (ie. I will have an issued RCAF tartan kilt) and, naturally, I wondered about wearing the kilt in lieu of trousers with my mess kit.
> 
> . . .



What is this fascination you have with acquiring a uniform (especially as an OCdt) for which you may have no need over the next couple (or more) of years?  Maybe your circumstances have changed since you posted the following a little over three months ago, but if your plan is still to attend university on the government dime the opportunities to flaunt dress regulations will be few (if attending a civilian institution) or none (if attending RMC - the gentlemen cadets have their own distinct clothing that doesn't include mess dress).  There used to be a reason (and not just a financial one) why new officers (after they were commissioned) had a six month grace period before they had to purchase the monkey suit.




			
				Tait said:
			
		

> I have a current application for CT-ROTP with ACSO as my trade aspiration. My interviews, medic- als, university / RMC applications and aircrew selection were all successful but I haven't heard anything for a month. I did contact my CFRC but my MCC is on long term sick leave.


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## Tait (27 May 2016)

Good question with excellent references! My apologies if the following is taking things a little off topic to answer Blackadder's question.

Of course there is a great deal of excitement that comes with the launch of a new career, for which I might be getting ahead of myself. In the past, I have taken great pride in the Scottish elements of my uniform (when permitted, eg. with HM Scots Guards) and I can't help but wonder about the possibilities with my new career. I must say for the record that this is neither a fascination or a focus - right now I have many more important questions for which I have been fortunate to find authoritative answers outside this forum.

I genuinely hope to avoid flaunting dress regs although it is genuinely interesting to me to ask how seriously these are taken in different environments. I have been advised that I will be a member of the local RCAF officer's mess and I hope that there will be opportunity for me to attend various mess functions, including formal dinners. I imagine this would be considered excellent professional development!

If I'm going to need to buy the uniform eventually, why not get it now? I have no intention of getting profoundly fatter!


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## Gunplumber (27 May 2016)

Why does the RCN and RCAF keep trying to steal Army stuff when you have your own traditional dress? If you want to wear a kilt then join a highland regt. Just because you have a Scottish background dosnt mean you get to wear what you want. There are dress Regs, so obey the damn things. Why should I obey the orders of an officer who dosnt obey orders???? 
Why the hell does the Navy need a kilt? The RCN has nothing to do with Scotland.


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## mariomike (27 May 2016)

Gunplumber said:
			
		

> Why the hell does the Navy need a kilt?



Some would ask why the hell not?  

Navy Mess Kit and Kilts? 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112805.0


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## Remius (27 May 2016)

Gunplumber said:
			
		

> Why does the RCN and RCAF keep trying to steal Army stuff when you have your own traditional dress? If you want to wear a kilt then join a highland regt. Just because you have a Scottish background dosnt mean you get to wear what you want. There are dress Regs, so obey the damn things. Why should I obey the orders of an officer who dosnt obey orders????
> Why the hell does the Navy need a kilt? The RCN has nothing to do with Scotland.



Here is the history of the RCAF tartan and likely why they wear it?

_The story of the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) tartan goes back to January 1942.  

Group Captain Elmer G.  Fullerton, station commander of No. 9 Service Flying Training School, RCAF Station Summerside, Prince Edward Island, wanted to celebrate his Scottish heritage by organizing a “Robbie Burns Night” mess dinner. He borrowed bagpipes for his station band and searched for a suitable tartan to outfit the band in full Scottish regalia.

Group Captain Fullerton decided to design an original pattern that represented the Air Force. With coloured pencils in hand, he produced the prototype using light blue, dark blue and maroon colours. The original sample of the proposed RCAF tartan was created by Patricia Jenkins and Loom crofters of Gagetown, New Brunswick, with the Gagetown weavers also adding a white line in the design.

He then ordered a sample of the material to be sent to RCAF Headquarters in Ottawa for approval. The design was endorsed by the Air Council, and Air Vice-Marshal J. A. Sully sent it off to Scotland’s Lord Lyon, King of Arms, for approval in July 1942.

The approval was granted on August 15 and the design was officially registered as the RCAF tartan. Thus the RCAF became the first air force in the world to have its own distinctive tartan. The speed of the process from original concept to final approval in a period of eight months is truly awe-inspiring.

Since then, the distinctive RCAF tartan has been worn by members of RCAF pipe and drum bands. It is also used in other ways, including ties, mess kit cummerbunds, or ladies’ sashes_

Being the junior service and a fairly new service in terms of the CAF I suppose they needed to created some traditions?  I doubt they were or are stealing from the army as I'm pretty sure that kilts are not just "army" apparel.  Like it or not our military is heavily influenced by other countries' traditions given our multicultural heritage.


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## Old Sweat (27 May 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> Here is the history of the RCAF tartan and likely why they wear it?
> 
> _The story of the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) tartan goes back to January 1942.
> 
> ...



My wife's late uncle was AVM Leckie's EA at the time. He described Leckie as a dour Scot who accepted the RCAF tartan with ill grace, although he finally admitted the pipes and drums put on a fine show on the tartan's debut.


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## Blackadder1916 (27 May 2016)

Tait said:
			
		

> . . .  I have been advised that I will be a member of the local RCAF officer's mess and I hope that there will be opportunity for me to attend various mess functions, including formal dinners. I imagine this would be considered excellent professional development!



Since your profile indicates that you are currently in the GGFG, I will assume that you are remaining in Ottawa to attend university and thus you are referring to the Officers' Mess on Gloucester Street.  A nice mess, we (a majority of the officers in the Surg Gen branch) used to do lunch there at least one Friday a month (great fish and chips) back in the late 1980s when I was posted to NDHQ - similarly we used to do the curry lunch (Wednesdays?) at the Army Mess with the same frequency.

Things have probably changed in the nearly three decades since, but back then most formal functions (i.e. mess dinners) in the Ottawa messes were organized along branch/corps/regimental (or similar organizational) lines and the participants generally limited to individuals who had those connections.  I don't recall any mess dinners held for the mess membership as a whole.  The Ottawa officers' messes were a slightly different animal than would be found on the average air base (or army or navy establishment), so you may not find it to be the traditional "home of the officer" with an older experienced officer passing on his knowledge to newly minted members of the profession of arms in a relaxed social setting after duty hours.  That older wiser officer is likely (along with the majority of his brethren) waiting to catch the bus home after work.


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## Gunplumber (29 May 2016)

Remius, When the Black Watch was raised in the 1720s it was the only Regt in kilts and then the rest of the Regts of Higlanders were raised and eventualy all wore kilts. I think that this would make kilts "Army" The only kilts worn when the air force was raised were by Scottish officers seconded to the service who continued to wear their Army dress as the air force didn't yet have a uniform. Later when a uniform was invented, Army officers switch over to the new dress. They did NOT continue to wear their kilt. There is no history of the air force or the navy wearing kilts. As far as I can find there is no official Royal Navy unit that wears a kilt. There are other units in the UK that wear kilts but they are Scottish (and Irish) regiments. In my books that would make it Army. So some officer decides he wants to wear a kilt in the middle of the war and it gets shot up the line and approved smacks to me of the RCAF grabbing other peoples toys. How does this make it a tradition? There have been lots of Army units who have been told they cant wear uniform items as there is no official recognition that has more basis of tradition than the RCAF has of the kilt.
As for staling from the Army lets talk about the beret. It was started in the French Army if I remember correctly and has been an Army headdress for a long time. The only non Army unit to wear it was the RAF Regiment I think. So why does the RCN and RCAF think they are allowed to steal it? I will also remind you that RCAF personnel in CANSOF in DEUs are not allowed to wear the tan beret nor even the tan patch even though it is the Regt headdress. Hypocrisy?

A proud Highlander


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## Remius (29 May 2016)

Gunplumber said:
			
		

> Remius, When the Black Watch was raised in the 1720s it was the only Regt in kilts and then the rest of the Regts of Higlanders were raised and eventualy all wore kilts. I think that this would make kilts "Army" The only kilts worn when the air force was raised were by Scottish officers seconded to the service who continued to wear their Army dress as the air force didn't yet have a uniform. Later when a uniform was invented, Army officers switch over to the new dress. They did NOT continue to wear their kilt. There is no history of the air force or the navy wearing kilts. As far as I can find there is no official Royal Navy unit that wears a kilt. There are other units in the UK that wear kilts but they are Scottish (and Irish) regiments. In my books that would make it Army. So some officer decides he wants to wear a kilt in the middle of the war and it gets shot up the line and approved smacks to me of the RCAF grabbing other peoples toys. How does this make it a tradition? There have been lots of Army units who have been told they cant wear uniform items as there is no official recognition that has more basis of tradition than the RCAF has of the kilt.
> As for staling from the Army lets talk about the beret. It was started in the French Army if I remember correctly and has been an Army headdress for a long time. The only non Army unit to wear it was the RAF Regiment I think. So why does the RCN and RCAF think they are allowed to steal it? I will also remind you that RCAF personnel in CANSOF in DEUs are not allowed to wear the tan beret nor even the tan patch even though it is the Regt headdress. Hypocrisy?
> 
> A proud Highlander



You do realize that the RCAF pipes and drums is the only part of the RCAF that actually wears the kilt right? And that they've been wearing it for some 80 years now? Or should we have a pipes and drums band that is in trousers?

Kilts aren't army. They're Scottish. Just because they adopted a tartan and kilt doesn't mean they "stole" it from the army.  

CSOR is adopting tomahawks as symbol of their unit.  Stealing? Or developing their traditions?  Not that much different from the RCAF having an official tartan.


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## Gunplumber (29 May 2016)

Yes Im ok with the Pipes and Drums wearing the kilt. What this discussion has developed from is RCN and RCAF guys wearing a kilt in mess dress with no authorization what so ever and no right to based on the traditions of the RCAF and RCN. If a Pipe band member wanted to wear a kilt in mess dress and it was authorized its fine. That is what I am getting at.


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## George Wallace (29 May 2016)

However, Mess Kit and Service Dress are not the only forms of Dress allowed in the Mess.  Proper civilian attire, even formal civilian attire, can be worn.  Someone attending a formal Mess function that does not demand Mess Kit, could wear formal Highland attire, including the kilt.   >


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## Tait (30 May 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Since your profile indicates that you are currently in the GGFG, I will assume that you are remaining in Ottawa to attend university and thus you are referring to the Officers' Mess on Gloucester Street.  A nice mess, we (a majority of the officers in the Surg Gen branch) used to do lunch there at least one Friday a month (great fish and chips) back in the late 1980s when I was posted to NDHQ - similarly we used to do the curry lunch (Wednesdays?) at the Army Mess with the same frequency.
> 
> Things have probably changed in the nearly three decades since, but back then most formal functions (i.e. mess dinners) in the Ottawa messes were organized along branch/corps/regimental (or similar organizational) lines and the participants generally limited to individuals who had those connections.  I don't recall any mess dinners held for the mess membership as a whole.  The Ottawa officers' messes were a slightly different animal than would be found on the average air base (or army or navy establishment), so you may not find it to be the traditional "home of the officer" with an older experienced officer passing on his knowledge to newly minted members of the profession of arms in a relaxed social setting after duty hours.  That older wiser officer is likely (along with the majority of his brethren) waiting to catch the bus home after work.



Thank you, my lord Blackadder! I am in Ottawa and I'm glad to hear it's a nice mess. Also useful to know that there aren't many formal functions that I could attend - this may influence my decision to purchase mess kit.


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## George Wallace (30 May 2016)

Tait said:
			
		

> Thank you, my lord Blackadder! I am in Ottawa and I'm glad to hear it's a nice mess. Also useful to know that there aren't many formal functions that I could attend - this may influence my decision to purchase mess kit.



The question does come to mind.  If you joined the GGFG, why did you not originally cross the Drill Floor and join the Camerons?  This likely would have negated the posting of these questions.


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## Remius (30 May 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The question does come to mind.  If you joined the GGFG, why did you not originally cross the Drill Floor and join the Camerons?  This likely would have negated the posting of these questions.



I think he mentioned that he had served with the Scots Guards before.  Would make sense to join a Guard unit here I would guess.


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## captloadie (30 May 2016)

In the many mess dinners I have attended as an officer in the RCAF, I have seen only one member wear a kilt with their mess dress. He happened to be the main piper on the Wing, and he only wore it that way when he was piping at the Mess dinner. All other times he wore pants like the rest of us. Those officers who happen to belong to the band would where the kilt with their cut away DEU tunic.


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## Pusser (30 May 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> I think he mentioned that he had served with the Scots Guards before.  Would make sense to join a Guard unit here I would guess.



Interestingly enough, as far as I can tell, only the band in the Scots Guards wear kilts.  Everybody else wears trousers, including with mess dress.

As for items of dress in general, I don't think any one group can claim exclusive rights to any one item.  Berets were introduced in both the army and navy during WWII as a cost savings.  The wedge cap was developed by the army during the 19th century, long before planes were invented.  Although there are no Highland units in either the Navy or the Air Force, that doesn't mean a new tradition cannot be started.  Traditions always have to start somewhere and now is as good a time as any.  Although I've never seen anyone wearing a kilt in any form of Air Force uniform, except the pipe band(s), I don't see anything wrong with it for mess dress.  The wearing of kilts by naval officers is not common, but it is not unheard of either.  Again, I don't see anything wrong with it.  It is actually specifically approved in the RN, so why not here?


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## mariomike (31 May 2016)

I guess they do have their practical advantages,

Navy Mess Kit and Kilts?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112805/post-1268793#msg1268793
"I responded "there was no better garment for defecation, urination and fornication" (quoting a WWI recruiting officer) and was actually awarded a libation in that case."


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## AKa (1 Jun 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Things have probably changed in the nearly three decades since, but back then most formal functions (i.e. mess dinners) in the Ottawa messes were organized along branch/corps/regimental (or similar organizational) lines and the participants generally limited to individuals who had those connections.  I don't recall any mess dinners held for the mess membership as a whole.  The Ottawa officers' messes were a slightly different animal than would be found on the average air base (or army or navy establishment), so you may not find it to be the traditional "home of the officer" with an older experienced officer passing on his knowledge to newly minted members of the profession of arms in a relaxed social setting after duty hours.  That older wiser officer is likely (along with the majority of his brethren) waiting to catch the bus home after work.



A bit off topic but...  As of two years ago, the RCAF Mess in Ottawa was holding an annual Air Force Mess Dinner.  The mess heavily subsidized it ($25/person) and a very diverse cross-section of the NCR's air community showed up.  I attended about 3-4 years ago and it was a very nice affair with a good spread of ranks from OCdt to BGen.  Just remember to grab your place card and secure it as soon as you enter the dining room.

Cheers!


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## safetysOff (2 Jun 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Absolutely.    :nod:
> 
> I _was_  going to go as far as to mention that, largely due to Operation Honour, you'd even be free of mocking.   ;D
> 
> ...



You're one to mock Op Honor journeyman, most men are dogs anyways.


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## Journeyman (2 Jun 2016)

safetysOff said:
			
		

> You're one to mock Op Honor journeyman, most men are dogs anyways.


   ???

Insert generic "sorry I hurt your feelings" here.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Jun 2016)

safetysOff said:
			
		

> You're one to mock Op Honor journeyman, most men are dogs anyways.



That sounds sexist. I'm offended. Where's my safe spot?


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## CountDC (2 Jun 2016)

I have seen Navy wearing kilts with DEU.  Everyone one of them were pipers.


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