# Career Advice [go to China to teach ESL; come back and get full time hours]



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

Hi all.

May I ask for some advice on how to go about teaching ESL in China, and then come back to get full time hours in the military, please?

I'll start off by quickly introducing myself to those of you who haven't read any of my postings. I'm Eugene T.S. Wong, Pte Wong, a supply tech, from the BC Regiment [a recce reserve unit], in Vancouver. I got sworn in on 18Jan07, and am SQ qualified, and therefore, I'm waiting for my QL3 course this summer, to get my first hook. I'm qualified to drive the LSVW, MLVW, MILCOTS, and other civie type vehicles.

To start off, I'd like to quickly mention the things that I've been told.

Before BMQ, last summer, I was told by the RSM that the unit could easily grant me 3 months to go overseas, and then they would delay the paper work for another 3 months to give me a total of 6 months. This would work out well for me, because I don't want to miss out on any military courses. Also, with teaching ESL, it's pretty much 6 months or 12, because of the school system in China. They don't want to hire somebody for only half a semester, which makes sense. I haven't really looked too hard into other countries, but I'm sure that it's the same. While looking through the ads, I get the strong impression that the ESL industry is becoming a very established and mature industry, which means no jumping in for only 3 months in normal circumstances. My current manager says that he'll sign whatever I ask for. He was probably referring to asking for 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, etc.

My OpsWO made a suggestion to me the other day. He said that his intent was out concern for my well-being and the best interest of my career. He suggested that I transfer to 12 Svc Battalion in Richmond, because of how they do things in a systematic and detailed way, whereas at this regiment, they tend to just do it. As far as I could tell, he meant well, and wasn't trying to imply anything. He definitely gave the impression that I was still welcome here.

My manager, the quartermaster, said that I should transfer to reg force, because having full time hours is such an important thing to me. He also said that I would have to do BMQ over again.

If I could easily change units, then maybe I could consider transferring to the Royal Westminster Regiment, in New Westminster, because it is closer to me. They are an infantry regiment.

That being said, here are my questions.

If I quit the miltary completely, then it would be much easier to go to teach ESL in China for a year. Would the military look at me in a bad way, if I try to get into the reg forces when I come back? Will they look at me as uncommitted? I would have to take BMQ over again, whether or not I quit, and according to my understanding, it would save paper work if I quit, so is it worth quitting now? How much notice do I have to give them for releasing? Can I ask to be released today and be done by next week?

How easy is it for the unit to do what the RSM said to me? I don't want them to break rules, but if they can do what he says, then I would appreciate it. Is it appropriate to approach him and ask him for that favour again? My current chain of command knows nothing about this other than what little I have tried to explain to him. He does things by the book and he is young, so I suspect that he doesn't know the ropes as well as the RSM and my chain of command from before BMQ. I don't want to break the rules. I just want to get things done. I suspect that the clerks don't understand what is happening either.

If I manage to get 6 months off, and come back, then will I be able to get full time work easily at 39 Brigade, assuming that things haven't changed, and that I am a competent worker, etc.?

How easy is it for a no-hook private to ask for a year off? Is it possible to ask for a year off, but only get 3 months? In other words, is it 'all that I ask for or nothing', or 'all that I ask for or as much as each level of command will grant me'?

What is the culture like at 12 Svc Battalion and the Royal Westminster Regiment?

How soon after QL4 can I take QL5? If I am pressed for time, then can I take QL5 before QL4?

At this point, I'm leaning towards quitting and starting over again, but I'd hate to give up the qualifications that I have earned.

Any help will be appreciated. Please try to answer as much as possible, so that this could be a win-win situation. I realize that you guys put a lot of time into answering, so I really appreciate it.


----------



## medaid (7 Apr 2008)

Think VERY carefully before going to a schedule country such as PRC...


----------



## Celticgirl (7 Apr 2008)

I can't answer any of the military questions, but as an ESL teacher who has taught overseas, I have to wonder why you picked China as your target destination (one of the countries with the lowest salaries for ESL teachers). If you go to Taiwan, you will have the same Chinese culture - actually, they have probably kept more of the old traditions in Taiwan that have gone by the wayside in China - as well as a decent salary. If you have bills to pay here in Canada while you are overseas, you might want to seriously rethink your destination. Just a little bit of advice, take it or leave it.


----------



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Think VERY carefully before going to a schedule country such as PRC...



Alright. What do I need to think about? I looked up the list of countries that we can go to. I see that it's okay for us to go there, but I'm still unclear about what you mean by "schedule country". Technically speaking, aren't all countries on that list schedule countries?


----------



## medaid (7 Apr 2008)

eugenetswong said:
			
		

> Alright. What do I need to think about? I looked up the list of countries that we can go to. I see that it's okay for us to go there, but I'm still unclear about what you mean by "schedule country". Technically speaking, aren't all countries on that list schedule countries?



What I meant is that sure you can go there if you so chose, but if you plan on upgrading your clearance anytime after that, it may take LONGER then it normally would.


----------



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> (snip)
> I have to wonder why you picked China as your target destination (one of the countries with the lowest salaries for ESL teachers). If you go to Taiwan, you will have the same Chinese culture - actually, they have probably kept more of the old traditions in Taiwan that have gone by the wayside in China - as well as a decent salary. If you have bills to pay here in Canada while you are overseas, you might want to seriously rethink your destination. Just a little bit of advice, take it or leave it.



I'll take it.

I picked China, because it was picked for me.  I hate to say this, but I got tired of the family suggesting to me that I do it. As much as I hate to travel, I do see that there are benefits to visiting the "homeland".  ;D Just for the record, I don't consider China my homeland. I just think that there are benefits to seeing where my relatives came from.

I'm willing to try out Taiwan. I'll look into it. What's the cost of living like? After teaching in Taiwan, will I bring back any money, as long as I live a thrifty life style?

I have no bills to pay, other than transit fares, and snacks.


----------



## medaid (7 Apr 2008)

eugenetswong said:
			
		

> I'll take it.
> 
> I picked China, because it was picked for me.  I hate to say this, but I got tired of the family suggesting to me that I do it. As much as I hate to travel, I do see that there are benefits to visiting the "homeland".  ;D Just for the record, I don't consider China my homeland. I just think that there are benefits to seeing where my relatives came from.
> 
> ...



TW is quite different then China. Sure the language is similar but the culture is quite different. Currently there are many foreigners being employed by English teaching schools in most of the large cities. To get a job there shouldn't be that hard. Pay depends on the company you work for. Some of the people I know didn't make that much, other made a whack load. Choice is yours. Shop around.


----------



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> What I meant is that sure you can go there if you so chose, but if you plan on upgrading your clearance anytime after that, it may take LONGER then it normally would.


I'm embarrassed to ask this, but what is the purpose behind upgrading my clearance anytime after that? I thought that once I got permission to go there, then I'm okay. After that, I return home, and then continue my military career. Are you referring to visiting neighbouring countries?


----------



## medaid (7 Apr 2008)

eugenetswong said:
			
		

> I'm embarrassed to ask this, but what is the purpose behind upgrading my clearance anytime after that? I thought that once I got permission to go there, then I'm okay. After that, I return home, and then continue my military career. Are you referring to visiting neighbouring countries?



Naw mate. What I meant if if you would want to upgrade your clearance for what ever reason, deployment so on and so forth, you'll have trouble getting it fast enough due to the fact that you've visited a schedule country such as PRC.


----------



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Naw mate. What I meant if if you would want to upgrade your clearance for what ever reason, deployment so on and so forth, you'll have trouble getting it fast enough due to the fact that you've visited a schedule country such as PRC.


Hmm, that's a very good point. I'm going to read up about that. I believe you. I just need to know the specifics.


----------



## Celticgirl (7 Apr 2008)

eugenetswong said:
			
		

> I'll take it.
> 
> I picked China, because it was picked for me.  I hate to say this, but I got tired of the family suggesting to me that I do it. As much as I hate to travel, I do see that there are benefits to visiting the "homeland".  ;D Just for the record, I don't consider China my homeland. I just think that there are benefits to seeing where my relatives came from.
> 
> ...



First of all, it's a teacher's market. In other words, don't jump at the first job opportunity. There are schools willing to pay well. Negotiate. Accommodations won't be what you are used to in Canada. If you go to a larger city like Taipei or Taichung, public transportation will be available to you. In most smaller cities and towns, there will be none. You can buy a scooter (like I did) or bicycle, but be prepared to navigate traffic unlike what you have experienced here (I was hit by a bus within a month, survived and learned from it). Eating out is usually cheaper than eating in. (Groceries are expensive, local restaurants are often pretty reasonable unless you purposely seek out something high end.) Fruit markets are awesome. People will say to stay away from street vendors (for food), but I found them really good. The one time I was food poisoned in Taiwan was from a burger at an American restaurant (go figure, eh?). I bought a video camera, laptop computer, and a few other 'toys' while there, travelled a bit (very nice vacation in the Phillippines included) and still came home with quite a bit of cash. 

As I said, be picky about where you go. Try to talk to foreign teachers at the schools you are considering because recruiters and school directors can paint a very inaccurate picture when they are desperate for foreign teachers. 

One last thing: As you mentioned China being your homeland, I have to tell you that this could work against you with regards to being employed as an ESL teacher in China or Taiwan. The novelty factor of the pale-faced Westerner should not be underestimated. It's terribly superficial, but it's reality. Some schools will flat out refuse to hire you because you look Asian and they want a European look. 

Good luck with it all.


----------



## medaid (7 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> One last thing: As you mentioned China being your homeland, I have to tell you that this could work against you with regards to being employed as an ESL teacher in China or Taiwan. The novelty factor of the pale-faced Westerner should not be underestimated. It's terribly superficial, but it's reality. Some schools will flat out refuse to hire you because you look Asian and they want a European look.



Oh that is soooo true!  I had a Korean school attempt to recruit our friends at the school, well when I asked about it, the first and only question they asked me was if I was a native speaker of the language. I said not. Now, my English is close to perfect pronunciation wise. I have no accent what so ever other then the Canadian Eh? and they flat our rejected me. I almost laughed, and all my friends left laughing too ;D Oh well, their loss my gain! Their offer was really crappy to begin with anyways


----------



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> One last thing: As you mentioned China being your homeland, I have to tell you that this could work against you with regards to being employed as an ESL teacher in China or Taiwan. The novelty factor of the pale-faced Westerner should not be underestimated. It's terribly superficial, but it's reality. Some schools will flat out refuse to hire you because you look Asian and they want a European look.



Just for the record, I don't consider China my homeland. I only said that in a humourous way to reflect that my grandparents were born there.

Regarding discrimination, I hate it, but yeah, it has already happened. 1 school said that they aren't racists, but that their students are. Another school took a look at my photo, because my last name wasn't obvious enough  ;D and said that they wanted a white face. I think that these 2 situations were the second and third times in my life that I was discriminated because of my skin colour. That should be an excellent example of why I am proud to be Canadian and not something else!   

Edit: just added "that" in a sentence for readability.


----------



## Celticgirl (7 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> TW is quite different then China. Sure the language is similar but the culture is quite different. Currently there are many foreigners being employed by English teaching schools in most of the large cities. To get a job there shouldn't be that hard. Pay depends on the company you work for. Some of the people I know didn't make that much, other made a whack load. Choice is yours. Shop around.



I agree that there are many differences, but not with regards to language and culture. The official language of Taiwan is Mandarin Chinese, just as it is in mainland China. Many folks also speak Taiwanese at home, but in schools, stores, and other public places, it's Mandarin that you will usually hear (if you know the difference, that is - I relied on Taiwanese friends to tell me). The differences with regards to Chinese culture I feel are not great either. As I mentioned in my first post, Taiwan has kept some of the traditions that China has pretty much discarded. One example would be the public funeral that takes place in the middle of a road, big tent set up, people singing and crying...for 49 days. I kid you not. This is in Taiwan. It used to be a tradition in China years ago, but I understand that they don't do it anymore. In Taiwan, they do. Nonetheless, it is still a Chinese custom, whether it's practiced on the mainland or not. 

So I guess I'm curious as to what parts of the culture you think are "quite different". Could you give me an example? I'm just curious, having taught students from both places and not seeing any great differences myself.


----------



## rosco (7 Apr 2008)

I taught overseas for a number of years and am now a member of the 'Reg Force.'

Three points for you:

1. Living in most Asian countrys will DRASTICALY slow down your security clearance. In my case 3 1/2 years!

2. Find ESL work at www.daveseslcafe.com Every thing you need is there.

3. Listen to all the points Celticgirl mentioned. Don't be offended by her observations about race. It is true... being Asian may factor into what sort of salary they want to give you. NEGOTIATE HARD!

Best of luck!


----------



## medaid (7 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I agree that there are many differences, but not with regards to language and culture. The official language of Taiwan is Mandarin Chinese, just as it is in mainland China. Many folks also speak Taiwanese at home, but in schools, stores, and other public places, it's Mandarin that you will usually hear (if you know the difference, that is - I relied on Taiwanese friends to tell me). The differences with regards to Chinese culture I feel are not great either. As I mentioned in my first post, Taiwan has kept some of the traditions that China has pretty much discarded. One example would be the public funeral that takes place in the middle of a road, big tent set up, people singing and crying...for 49 days. I kid you not. This is in Taiwan. It used to be a tradition in China years ago, but I understand that they don't do it anymore. In Taiwan, they do. Nonetheless, it is still a Chinese custom, whether it's practiced on the mainland or not.
> 
> So I guess I'm curious as to what parts of the culture you think are "quite different". Could you give me an example? I'm just curious, having taught students from both places and not seeing any great differences myself.



The differences are from a native perspective. As in I'm from TW and have been to China. They do have large funerals in China, just not in the major cities. The mandarin is different as well. Trust me. The accent usually found in the main land has been diluted down due to the mix with Taiwanese and Mandarin. However, you don't hear Mandarin as often in most places anymore as you do Taiwanese. This is partly due to the political party that was in power for the past few years, and the over all atmosphere. 

Taiwanese is a bastardized version of Fu Ken just in case anyone is curious.


----------



## Celticgirl (7 Apr 2008)

eugenetswong said:
			
		

> Just for the record, I don't consider China my homeland. I only said that in a humourous way to reflect that my grandparents were born there.
> 
> Regarding discrimination, I hate it, but yeah, it has already happened. 1 school said that they aren't racists, but their students are. Another school took a look at my photo, because my last name wasn't obvious enough  ;D and said that they wanted a white face. I think that these 2 situations were the second and third times in my life that I was discriminated because of my skin colour. That should be an excellent example of why I am proud to be Canadian and not something else!



Oh, discrimination in all forms is still alive and well in many Asian countries. When considering hiring a teacher, they will factor in how Western you look (white face, preferably blonde hair and blue or green eyes), how old you are, your sex (females being much preferred over males), and yes, even how attractive you are perceived to be. I saw our school's director turn down applicants with Master's degrees in Education and the like to go with someone with some namby pamby degree and zero teaching experience because the first applicant didn't have the right look and the second did. I just shook my head, but you have to realize that they are selling a product and YOU are the product. You're not a teacher in the sense that you would be at a Canadian school. You are, as some of us ESL teachers like to say, the "dancing monkey".  ;D  (And if you think you won't have to dance and sing at some point, you are in for a rude awakening. lol)


----------



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> You are, as some of us ESL teachers like to say, the "dancing monkey".  ;D  (And if you think you won't have to dance and sing at some point, you are in for a rude awakening. lol)


Should I buy a tutu or a pair of baggy jeans?  ;D


----------



## CougarKing (7 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I can't answer any of the military questions, but as an ESL teacher who has taught overseas, I have to wonder why you picked China as your target destination (one of the countries with the lowest salaries for ESL teachers). If you go to Taiwan, you will have the same Chinese culture - actually, they have probably kept more of the old traditions in Taiwan that have gone by the wayside in China - as well as a decent salary. If you have bills to pay here in Canada while you are overseas, you might want to seriously rethink your destination. Just a little bit of advice, take it or leave it.



Celtic Girl is correct. As someone who lived in Taipei, Taiwan for two years (and also took an intensive Mandarin course at National Taiwan Normal University/ _Taiwan Shi Fan Da Xue_), one will get the same taste of Pan-Chinese culture in Taiwan as you do on the mainland. Furthermore in Taiwan, they use _Fan Ti Zi_/繁体字 or Traditional Mandarin characters, which are much closer to Classical Chinese that the many past Chinese Dynasties of Emperors used for centuries. One may argue that the cost of living on the mainland may be less-especially for food- but so will your relative salary. Also, security-wise, from my experience, I felt much safer in Taipei though one could argue that crime is comparable on both sides of the Taiwan Strait; at the other college program I took on the mainland, when our group went to the town of Xiahe, in Gansu province, which is located on what used to be the traditional border between China and Tibet, two of my American classmates had over 19,000 YUAN/KUAI and THEIR HOTEL TOILET SEAT STOLEN when their hotel room was broken into when the two of them were away. 

Anyways, I assume that you probably are aware of that from what little background you've told us of yourself (isn't Wong more of a Cantonese name? ), but the final decision is up to you and I'd like to wish you a safe journey no matter where you choose to go. YI LU PING AN! 一路平安!


----------



## Celticgirl (7 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> The differences are from a native perspective. As in I'm from TW and have been to China. They do have large funerals in China, just not in the major cities. The mandarin is different as well. Trust me. The accent usually found in the main land has been diluted down due to the mix with Taiwanese and Mandarin. However, you don't hear Mandarin as often in most places anymore as you do Taiwanese. This is partly due to the political party that was in power for the past few years, and the over all atmosphere.
> 
> Taiwanese is a bastardized version of Fu Ken just in case anyone is curious.



I'll have to take your word for that as I don't speak either one.    Interesting that Taiwanese is being spoken more now (I was there in 98/99). My co-workers used to switch back and forth between the two and as I was struggling to learn Mandarin, it greatly confused me! 

I can see where you would pick up on differences much more readily than someone like myself as well. The average Canadian is not likely to find such a great difference between the two places. If you have any other examples of how the two differ, I am still genuinely interested to hear. I never tire of learning such things.


----------



## eugenetswong (7 Apr 2008)

CougarDaddy said:
			
		

> Anyways, I assume that you probably are aware of that from what little background you've told us of yourself (isn't Wong more of a Cantonese name? ), but the final decision is up to you and I'd like to wish you a safe journey no matter where you choose to go. YI LU PING AN! 一路平安!


I don't quite know it all, but I do know some of it. I really appreciate you all discussing this with me.

My last name probably is Cantonese. That's the impression I get. However, I honestly don't know. I just know that my dad's side of the family is Foo Chow, and my mom's side is Fookien. I don't know the correct transliterations of the backgrounds, but you probably know what I mean.

I just asked my dad, and he says that "Wong" comes from all over China.


----------



## Celticgirl (7 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> The mandarin is different as well. Trust me. The accent usually found in the main land has been diluted down due to the mix with Taiwanese and Mandarin.



I've had students from different parts of the mainland also tell me that there are several dialects within China itself, and that they sometimes struggle to understand someone from another part of the country. I imagine it to be similar to my attempts to understand people in England when I visited a few years back. Most of the time, I could get the gist of what they were saying but occasionally I got nothing from it but blahblahblah. One woman asked me if I was from "the French part" of Canada because I had so much trouble understanding her (obviously flawless) English.


----------



## CougarKing (7 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Taiwanese is a bastardized version of Fu Ken just in case anyone is curious.



Yeah. I think you mean _Ho Kien _ or _Fu jian Hua_/福建話. The proximity of Taiwan to Fujian province explains that. 

For example,

while a Mandarin speaker would say: WO SHI XUE SHENG.
         a Hokien speaker would say:    GUA JI HAK SENG (excuse my pinyin)

while both would read it or write it simply as: 我是學生.

Also, the majority of overseas Chinese or Hua Qiao in neigbouring Southeast Asian nations like Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines- where they have built commercial and financial empires like that owned by Henry Sy and the Gonkongwei families of the Philippines- are ethnically Fujianese or can trace their roots to Fujian.


----------



## Celticgirl (8 Apr 2008)

rossco said:
			
		

> Living in most Asian countrys will DRASTICALY slow down your security clearance. In my case 3 1/2 years!



Do you know why it took that long? I came back from Taiwan in '99 (just long enough to fit into that 10-year window) and was told my clearance could take 6-18 months. They are requesting that CSIS waive the clearance, but I doubt very much that this will happen. I just hope it is much quicker than the time frame I was given.  :-\


----------



## George Wallace (8 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Do you know why it took that long? I came back from Taiwan in '99 (just long enough to fit into that 10-year window) and was told my clearance could take 6-18 months. They are requesting that CSIS waive the clearance, but I doubt very much that this will happen. I just hope it is much quicker than the time frame I was given.  :-\



Once again......It takes so long for some of these to be completed, and some cases never completed, due to the fact that there has to be Criminal Checks done.  If a country does not have the proper "Agreements" with Canada and allow or cooperate in doing these "Checks" or in any way delays them, then your Security Clearance is also DELAYED.


----------



## garb811 (8 Apr 2008)

Further to the security clearance/reliability status issue, these are dependent upon your continued need for said clearance/reliability status.  If you aren't a member of the CF or work for the Canadian Government in the capacity which requires it, the clearance will be administratively cancelled.  Once you come back and reapply, the clearance/reliability status must also be re-initiated.  While there is scope for this to be done quickly in cases where the time since it was cancelled is short, good luck with that if you go to mainland China.

As others have said once you get outside Canada the processing times increase exponentially so you will find yourself sidelined for a very, very long time.


----------



## Celticgirl (8 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Once again......It takes so long for some of these to be completed, and some cases never completed, due to the fact that there has to be Criminal Checks done.  If a country does not have the proper "Agreements" with Canada and allow or cooperate in doing these "Checks" or in any way delays them, then your Security Clearance is also DELAYED.



 :crybaby:

Thanks, George. It's not easy to accept, but it seems it's just matter of waiting...and waiting...and waiting.


----------

