# Leave Policy – Annual (time off, after hours, ect...) [Merged]



## scm77 (27 Apr 2004)

I think that when you start off you get 20 days holiday/year (correct me if I‘m wrong).  Could you take those all in a row if you wanted to? 

Also how much time off do you get after comming back from a deployment?


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## Michael OLeary (27 Apr 2004)

Canadian Forces Administrative Order 16-1 - Leave: 

CFAO 16-1 -- LEAVE


In theory you could take them all in a row, but it is unlikely your unit schedule would permit that. Usually you would take 2-3 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at XMas requires some annual leave days, and the others would be spread out when work permits.

Leave entitlement on redeployment from an operation is calculated at the time. Some of the forum participants can give examples from their own experience.


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## scm77 (29 Apr 2004)

Can anbody here that has been to Bosnia or A-stan answer that second part?


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## 48Highlander (29 Apr 2004)

The guys who came back from the last afghanistan tour had about a months leave when they came back.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Apr 2004)

From A‘stan we got 3x.5 days reintegration (not leave), 10 days debarkation and then whatever annual you had accumulated. There was some Special leave in there, but not everyone got it.


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## ZipperHead (30 Apr 2004)

You get 20 days leave per year for your first 5 years, and then that rises to 25 per year. 2 weeks of "block" leave (Xmas, Summer, etc) usually costs you about 10 annual leave days, and if there are any statutory holidays (stat leave) during that period, you don‘t have to use an annual day for that. CO‘s can give out "short" and "special" (max 2 days of each per month, but I could be wrong) leave as well, but that is becoming less frequent. So, in theory, a 2 week leave period (a total of 16 calendar days) starting at 0001 hrs on Saturday and ending Sunday at 2359 hr, with one stat holiday (Canada Day for example) would be 6 weekend (no cost to you), 2 short (good luck), 2 special (wishful thinking), 1 Stat (Canada Day), and 5 annual days. Not too bad when you consider what the average civvie gets, but then again civvies don‘t have to put up with some of the BS we do, but I digress.

As for deployments, it ***used*** to be 2.5 days per month deployed, but I heard from guys coming back from overseas that it‘s down to 2 days per month (6 month deployment=12 days). Not really a huge deal, considering back in Canada, you get an average of 8 days off per month (weekends) plus any holidays or "swans" the CO gives you. Overseas you typically work 6 days a week, with a "Sunday routine" day that usually means you get to sleep in, and then do work or training in the afternoon. Add in the "48‘s" (48 hr leaves) twice during the tour..... (I base this on my tour to Bosnia in 2000-2001, so I‘m not sure how much has changed).

As for when you redeploy, it‘s changed somewhat (for the worse it seems), so I won‘t speculate on what it is for sure, but it seems to be about 2  weeks or so (excluding annual leave tacked on). My wife got a fair chunk of leave redeploying from A‘stan in 2002 (3PPCLI Op Apollo tour), but when you consider they didn‘t get the 15 days NATO/UN/whatever-you-want-to-call-it leave while they were over there, and they weren‘t able to burn off their annual before the All Important March 31 leave year deadline (they were over there),and got it tacked onto their post-deployment leave, and then got a few freebies, it wasn‘t like they got a big Xmas present (like "They" would like you to think).

Anyway, I hope that answered your question.

Allan


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## c4th (7 May 2004)

Op Palladium disembarkation leave on my leave pass was 7 days "Special".  

Any more short or special is up to your CO.

In the reg force world taking your annual depends on your unit/sub-unit leave plan.

Just to show how bad we have it.  4 years of civy work netted me no more than 48 days holiday.  One year on Class C with a tour in Bosnia all tolled netted me only 62 working days off.


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## Armymedic (7 May 2004)

For Roto 13 return...
As above for us reg force, 7 days special disembarkation leave, plus we go two Short days which are given on discresion of your unit CO.
All told, with the Easter long weekend in there, I got 14 days off.

With 25 days annual leave, shorts, stats, and all, we do get a wack of payed time off...


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## casing (7 May 2004)

I heard that there is typically a 2 or 3 week "shut down" over xmas.  Is this true?  If so, from what Allan Luomala says above, you have to use vacation time for the days not considered stats.  To add to my "I heard..." statement, I heard that this shut down period was typical (barring being deployed or what not) and that you did not have to use vacation time.

Could someone clear this up for me, please?  I‘m going by the if-it-sounds-too-good-to-be-true rule here, but would still like someone to actually say it.


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## The_Falcon (8 May 2004)

I can only speak of the time I was at ASU (T), but suffice to say each unit/formation would come up with their own policy for minimum manning and the like, based on current QR&O‘s and CANFORGENS regarding leave.  The Canforgens would state which days can be designated STAT and how many SHORT days, and the procedure of getting leave if you happen to be the sucker, er I mean unfortunate person who is stuck doing the minimum manning. Confused yet?


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## casing (8 May 2004)

Thanks Hatchet Man. That actually does clear it up.


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## Garry (8 May 2004)

"Also how much time off do you get after comming back from a deployment?"

Bwhahahahaha.....sniff.......uhh, sorry.

Each year we‘d arrive home from a couple of months in Germany (Reforger) on a Friday night, around 2100 hrs. We‘d have to be back in before noon on Saturday for another week in the woods (Staff School firepower demo).

While it‘s in your Boss‘ best interest to keep you as happy as possible and give you the time off that you want, never forget that while you‘re entitled to leave, you‘re not entitled to choose when you get it. 

Cheers-Garry


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## Bograt (5 Jan 2005)

<I'm not even sworn in yet and I am already asking about leave>

I am off to IAP-BOTP this January. My wife and I are expecting in late March. BOTP isn't complete until April 17th. I realize that I will not be able to be threre for the birth, however does anyone know what if any leave I would be entitled after BOTP?

I have been told to expect SLT after BOTP (although I have also been told that 032s are getting waived past SLT). If I take some leave after BOTP will I miss SLT and hence be 9 months behind in the training pipeline? Or will they give me leave then perhaps an OJT the PFT and have to do SLT later?

Cheers,


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## Meridian (5 Jan 2005)

Wow.. tough question... and thats one heck of a thing to miss...  but such is the military life I guess.

Best of luck in whatever happens. I have no idea what to tell you, or who Id talk to about it... but I know I'd be asking about it the minute I got to St Jean.


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## Love793 (5 Jan 2005)

When you get there, make sure you mention it in your candidate autobiography, and remind your section 2ic and section commander.  There is a chance of compassionate leave, and sooner people know the easier it is to process (and make up any training you miss).  Good luck.


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## lostlittle1 (5 Jan 2005)

When I was in St Jean (NCM) it was my understanding that you accumulate 2 days of leave for every month you are in training.  I was allowed to take leave while I was there, and when fresh bodies arrived in Borden they shooed them away on any leave that was left before April, because you are not supposed to have any leave when April arrives (the new fiscal year when you are alloted annual leave again) so they expect and encourage you to burn it off.

So you will prob have leave coming to you, as to when you can use it thats up to the ones from above.  When in doubt, talk to the padre, they have the ear of God and the CO.

HOpe that helped a little.
 ;D


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## HollywoodHitman (5 Jan 2005)

You may be entitled to some special or compassionate leave, but wouldn't count on it. The sooner you inform your Sect. Comdr., the sooner the chain can start to move on your behalf. Be relatively humble in your requests and ensure that you show them no negative response if they cannot help you out. They will know (and probably share) in your disappointment, which COULD work in your favour. The CF makes considerable effort to keep things happy on the homefront these days and will move mountains if they can. But the army moves slowly at the best of times, so notification time is your best friend in this. 

The birth of your child is an important thing to miss, but such is life for many in the military. Best of luck to you in your training and with your new little family. Congrats in advance. 

TM


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## Meridian (5 Jan 2005)

Within the first week or so you usually have a meeting with your OC (Platoon Commander) in IAP...  Id for sure mention it then, they usually point blank as if there is anything you are worried about or that may adversely affect training, family situations, etc.

Also Id for sure advise your Sect Comd asap... Im sure they will be at least able to give you some time during the birth to yourself so you can use a phone or something, if no compassionnate leave is possible.


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## Inch (5 Jan 2005)

Bograt, don't worry about missing a few days of SLT, it won't make that much of a difference. Myself and 2 others had to take 2 weeks off during our SLT to burn off some leave, we came back and picked up right where we left off. BOTC on the other hand, one day can mess your course up. I'd advise you not to miss any time on BOTC, you may be able to get a Fri afternoon off and go home for the weekend if necessary, but I wouldn't advise missing any more time than that. You cover quite a bit of material each day and it could mean a recourse if you don't meet the course criteria.


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## jmackenzie_15 (20 Jan 2005)

I have a question to all you regF guys,

on the dnd site it says for your first 4 years of service you are granted 20 days of annual vacation time that you can take whenever you want.
Im wondering if this is separate from holidays and such, ie christmas,labor day, etc things like that.Is it 20 days on top of national holidays, or do holidays count?

If I wanted to take 5 days off on particular month, another 5 in another month and say 10 in the summer, or something, can you do this as long as it doesnt interfere with operations/exercises etc?


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## Ex-Dragoon (20 Jan 2005)

For us Annual is in addition to weekend and stat holidays. Some units only allow you to take leave during whats called Block Leave and you taking leave is always dependant on operational commitments. BTW unless you have a good reason you can no longer save your leave and let it accumulate like we could at one time.


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## Armymedic (20 Jan 2005)

BTW its for the first 5 yrs service...

Basically, you can apply for annual leave anytime, but more often then not, you'll be told when to take it. Most Summer blocks are 10 - 15 annual days long, Christmas usually 6-9 annual days, remainder taken during March, but all must be gone by 31 Mar of any given fiscal yr.

We also may get 2 days short leave a month upon with unit CO approval. For the couple days here/there, thats what its for (good for taking family to appts etc).

This is in addition to weekends, stat holidays and shift days off, if your not on duty.


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## jmackenzie_15 (21 Jan 2005)

thank you very much guys


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## scm77 (21 Jan 2005)

What about sick days? or would that fall under the 2 days short leave Armymedic mentioned?


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## garb811 (21 Jan 2005)

Sick Leave is a category of its own and can only be authorized by a MO, Dentist etc.

As a reservist, make sure that they do an audit of your leave entitlements when they do your pay audit on transfer as your service will bring the date you are entitled to 25 days closer.


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## Inch (21 Jan 2005)

You don't get sick days per se, in that you can't just call in and say you're not going to be there because you're sick. If you're going to miss work for medical reasons, you better have a chit from the MIR. If the MIR deems that you need 3 days off sick leave, then you get that with no effect towards your short leave for the month (if authorized) or annual leave for the year. I'm getting my wisdom teeth out in Apr, I get the Wed off for the operation, Thurs and Fri for sick leave and I show up Mon morn at the MIR to get ungrounded for flying duties. If I need more time off, they'll give it to me then.

There's lots of other reasons for leave, there's compasionate leave so you can travel to a funeral, there's special leave which falls into many categories such as relocation leave prior to or after a posting, and there's a few other cases, all at the discretion of the CO.


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## DAA (21 Jan 2005)

20 days (working days that is) for starters, then 25 days once you start your 5th consecutive year of service and then 30 days once you start your 28th year of service.  Time off is at the descretion of your supervisor and subject to op committments.  So you just can come into work Friday morning and tell your supr you are taking next week off.  Every unit has a different policy for administering leave.  Same for the sick leave.  Where I used to work, I could just pick up the phone and call in sick for up to 48 hours consecutive, after that I "had" to go to the MIR if I wanted more time.  Could it be abused, sure, but was it, NO.  People are generally pretty responsible in areas such as this.

CFAO 16-1 will give you all the info you need.


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## Inch (21 Jan 2005)

DAA said:
			
		

> 20 days (working days that is) for starters, then 25 days once you start your 5th consecutive year of service



Actually, it's the end of the 5th year, not the start, I just got my extra 5 days this past June. I enrolled in June 1999, the end of my 5th year was June 2004.


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## Armymedic (21 Jan 2005)

scm77 said:
			
		

> What about sick days? or would that fall under the 2 days short leave Armymedic mentioned?



There are no "sick days" by the civilian definition. By CO direction, your chain of command may allow you to not come to work due to illness or injury but that is not an official CF policy. More like something along the lines of giving days off for doing extra work or as a reward.

If you are ill or injured the medical staff can give you medical restrictions that may include excused duties or sick in quarters which allow you to leave your workplace to be not well elsewhere. Generally, if you are to be away for more then 3 days, sick leave is given. Sick leave can only be recommended by an MO, and be on sick leave by the MO for up to 30 days. With Area Surg approval you may be on sick leave for up to 180 days, but that is very unusual. BTW if you're admitted to a hosp, that is considered to be on duty (not on leave) for regular force pers.


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## DAA (22 Jan 2005)

Opps, I stand (actually sit) corrected.  Thanks for pointing me straight on that Inch.


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## Ninja9186 (26 Sep 2005)

I did a search but came up with nothing.  Does anybody know where I can find detailed information about time off in the forces (i.e. block leave and long weekends).  Or if someone can just tell me would be good.  I know there is summer block leave and leave for christmas but how long are they in duration.

Thanks in advance,
Joe


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## Michael OLeary (26 Sep 2005)

Units may grant block leave (everyone takes the same 2-3 weeks off) in the summer, or individual leave periods may be spread out over the sumer to ensure that the unit's operations carry on, i.e., not every unit can just shut down for three weeks.  

At Christmas, there will normally be a three week period (subject, of course to unit requirements) that you can take off, supplementiing the statutory holidays and special and short leave with your own annual leave days. To complete the first two weeks usually takes 2-3 annual days, the third week might be all annual leave days.

The CF recognizes statutory holidays in accordance with CFAO 16-1 LEAVE, Annex B (See extract below). If you are on duty for any of these days, you get a day off in lieu later (although this doesn't apply to Nov 11, since you only 'work' a few hours).


See CFAO 16-1 LEAVE

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/016-01_e.asp



> 49.    Subject to  QR&O 16.14, Annual Leave, and except as provided in paragraphs 50 to 54 below, annual leave entitlements are:
> 
> a.   20 working days for a member of the Regular Force with less than five years' of service in the Regular Force; or
> 
> b.   25 working days for a member of the Regular Force who has accumulated a minimum of five years of service in the Regular Force regardless of the amount of non-paid service granted or imposed from the date of enrolment.





> 51.    In the leave year during which a member of the Regular Force is enrolled in, re-enrolled in, or transferred to the Regular Force, calculation of the annual leave entitlement commences with the first full calendar month of paid service in the Regular Force.  In respect of the first leave year, a member is entitled to two working days for each calendar month of paid service that is completed during that leave year, to  a maximum of:
> 
> a.   24 working days if he has five or more years of qualifying service pursuant to paragraph 50; or
> 
> b.   20 working days in all other cases.





> SPECIAL LEAVE - CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR'S
> 
> 115. A CO may grant two working days special leave to a member in conjunction with either the Christmas/Boxing Day or New Year's holiday period as specified in Annex B. Annual and accumulated leave may be granted in any combination with this special leave.
> 
> ...






> ANNEX A -- HOLIDAYS
> 
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
> / Serial /                      Designated and Other Holidays                       /
> ...


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## Ninja9186 (27 Sep 2005)

Perfect.  Thanks for the help Michael.


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## Bradboy (29 Jan 2006)

Just wondering how I go about figuring out how many leave days I have left. I enrolled September 19, 2005 and I've heard you get 2 days a month for every month of service you've completed. So this would mean that I would have started with 10 leave days and I used 6 of them over X-Mas. So I figure I have 4 days left. I talked to my Sgt. and he found out that I do in fact have 4 days left. But this is my question. Some of my buddies who enrolled the same day as me and took the exact same amount of leave as me at X-Mas have 6 days and a couple even have 10 days leave. Who do I talk to to get this straightened out?


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## aesop081 (29 Jan 2006)

Bradboy said:
			
		

> Just wondering how I go about figuring out how many leave days I have left. I enrolled September 19, 2005 and I've heard you get 2 days a month for every month of service you've completed. So this would mean that I would have started with 10 leave days and I used 6 of them over X-Mas. So I figure I have 4 days left. I talked to my Sgt. and he found out that I do in fact have 4 days left. But this is my question. Some of my buddies who enrolled the same day as me and took the exact same amount of leave as me at X-Mas have 6 days and a couple even have 10 days leave. Who do I talk to to get this straightened out?



Your oderly room would be a great place to start....since they hold your leave records


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Jan 2006)

If your days are correct why would you take a chance on screwing your buddies out of thier [maybe] "buckshee" days?


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## Bradboy (29 Jan 2006)

I wouldn't be screwing my buddies out of their leave. I'm thinking that maybe I'm getting screwed out of some leave. And I did check with my orderly room they were the ones that told me I have 4 days of annual leave but they told my buddy he's got 10 days. So should I go back to the orderly room and ask them about it? Or will they just tell me to fuck off?


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## gnplummer421 (29 Jan 2006)

No, they might screw up everybody else's... and yours..just get a copy of all of your Leave records and ask your supervisor to help you.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Jan 2006)

...and if you ask them why your "buddy" has 10 days left and they respond with a pen stroke and say " Well, he doesn't now"...just how do you think he will feel?
If you had 10 and took 6 and have 4 left then you are good to go, leave it at that.


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## Aerobicrunner (30 Jan 2006)

The Christmas/NY holiday period is at times one of the most perplexing and sometimes unfair leave policy in place.  Many units shut down for block leave, leaving just the duty personnel for emergencies.  In addition to the special leave granted, many CO's will also grant short leave.  This often results in the disparity of how many ann lve days are used.  If you are not in the same unit with your buddies, bradboy, despite the same enrolment day, they may have been granted the extra short leave days by their CO.

Another reason for the difference is the time calculated.  It is true you get two days leave for each month served, but the leave year is determined from 01 Apr - 31 Mar.  With an enrolment date in Sep, that would give an entitlement of 14 days  (7 months x 2 days per month = 14) for the 05/06 leave year.   It may be that the leave pass for the individuals who have 10 days left have reflected the amount left to the end of the leave year.  

Finally, it seems strange to me that there were so many of you, presumably from across Canada, all enrolled on the exact same day (19 Sep).  If someone was enrolled in August it is possible that they would have two days more than yourself and then the difference in days left.


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## teltech (30 Jan 2006)

Another thing to consider is if you don't find out - and it turns out your buddies got buckshee days they weren't entitled to - and they do a leave audit when they leave the forces (after an IE)  - then they may find that those "buckshee" days cost a lot in terms of pension payout.
 :warstory: I had an audit done when I arrived at a posting, and it turns out I wasn't entitled to 2 days I was given. Bye bye accrued leave, but at least I won't get clawed back on my pension.
Best you find out and confirm YOUR leave entitlement NOW so you don't get bitten in the posterior LATER. 8)


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## teltech (30 Jan 2006)

Forgot to mention - leave is calculated from the first COMPLETE month of service.


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## bstevens (7 Apr 2006)

hi everybody, does anybody know anything about how Leave of Absence works?  i am considering it but i don't  know anything about it, or if it even exists...


thanks
bstevens
2RCR


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## ACS_Tech (8 Apr 2006)

If you mean Leave without pay, from my vague and possibly incorrect recollection, it must be for reasons in the interest of the CF and it must go to NDHQ for approval for over 30 days with your CO's recommendation.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2006)

bstevens said:
			
		

> hi everybody, does anybody know anything about how Leave of Absence works?  i am considering it but i don't  know anything about it, or if it even exists...
> 
> 
> thanks
> ...



Start here:

CFAO 16-1 -- LEAVE
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/016-01_e.asp

SECTION 6 -- LEAVE WITHOUT PAY AND ALLOWANCES (LWOP)


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## Sub_Guy (25 Apr 2007)

Just wondering how leave after a lengthy course is determined.  

Example - 6 Month course, you come back and you get a couple days off.

6 month deployment, you come back and get almost a month off.

I am not comparing the stresses of being away on deployment to those of sitting in some accomodations block, but time away from family is time away.  I think that if you are gone on a 6 month course you should be entitled to two days a month off or something like that.


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## Gramps (25 Apr 2007)

Yeah because the 25  annual days of leave per year are just not enough as it is. I wonder how many people in the Forces know how good they really have it compared to civilians when it comes to time off from work and other benefits. You are right, comparing a deployment to a course is apples and oranges. Your unit may well give you some days off for free but the rest should be annual leave.


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## X-army-cst (25 Apr 2007)

If you dig into the CFAO's there is an amendment there that allows an application for leave after long courses.  I found it on the CANFOGENS 2 yrs ago now.  If you look it is there. Made for long courses and such, granted at the CO's discretion though and normally you will be asked to take annual first. But you never know, try it.


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## PO2FinClk (25 Apr 2007)

X-army-cst said:
			
		

> If you dig into the CFAO's there is an amendment there that allows an application for leave after long courses.  I found it on the CANFOGENS 2 yrs ago now.  If you look it is there. Made for long courses and such, granted at the CO's discretion though and normally you will be asked to take annual first. But you never know, try it.


You'll find a vague ref in CANFORGEN's circa 01 or 02 IIRC about long career courses, and yes it is left to the CO's discretion.


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## Spring_bok (27 Apr 2007)

If you are going on a career course you should get 2 days on each end(not always and not an entitlement mind you).  You can request 2 short.  If you have been gone from your unit for six months, you will most likely be required to burn off some annual.  That being said, how many career courses are that long without a break in there somewhere?  On my 6A we had a 6 day break over Easter with LTA and that was less than 3 months.  On long exercises we usually get a few days off at the end but it is not an entitlement.  I think you will find most of us get about 6 weeks of leave a year all totaled.


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## CountDC (15 Jan 2009)

There is now a Leave Manual out.  The only link I have so far is: 

 http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jan 2009)

This might be news to some, not news to some.  The CF Leave Policy Manual  is now avail online, current as of 15 Dec 08.  It supersedes a ton of references, 85 pages of light reading for those so inclined.

Internet Link


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## Nfld Sapper (21 Jan 2009)

you missed it by that much EITS, already posted LEAVE MANUAL  

 ;D


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## Navalsnpr (6 Feb 2009)

So... here is a question for you all regarding the new manual. 

What leave is a member entitled to if they are required to work for a period of 2-3 weeks outside their normal geographical area without the ability to commute home during that period?  I find no mention of TD in this new manual however; in this case the message authorizing the trip doesn't state either TD or Attach Posted.

Does the new definition of attached posting in this manual now encompass the legacy term of TD as long as you are away from your geographical area?

Here is the definition of Attach Posting in the Leave Policy Manual:

_Attached Posting means the temporary assignment of a CF member to a component, subcomponent, formation, base, unit or element, other than that in which that person is ordinarily employed and in which that person continues to fill a position. _

Comments?


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## dapaterson (6 Feb 2009)

In chapter 5 of the leave manual, table 2 may apply:

IF serving away from home on duty for operations and training exercises within Canada for 14 to 30 days THEN the following amount of Special Leave (Relocation) may be granted by the CO: 1 day pre-deployment granted prior to departure and 2 days post-deployment granted immediately upon return

Note the many qualifiers - the CO may (not must) grant the leave, and you must be away from home for operations and training exercises.


See page 46/84 of the manual to place it all in context.


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## Navalsnpr (12 Feb 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> In chapter 5 of the leave manual, table 2 may apply:
> 
> IF serving away from home on duty for operations and training exercises within Canada for 14 to 30 days THEN the following amount of Special Leave (Relocation) may be granted by the CO: 1 day pre-deployment granted prior to departure and 2 days post-deployment granted immediately upon return
> 
> ...



Exactly!!  That argument was pushed up through the CoC and not supported... All that was given to the member was one day short on either end for compensation for flying out on a Sunday and back on a Saturday. I suspect that the Officer Corps has not even looked at this document as it died at their level.


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## CountDC (12 Feb 2009)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> Exactly!!  That argument was pushed up through the CoC and not supported... All that was given to the member was one day short on either end for compensation for flying out on a Sunday and back on a Saturday. I suspect that the Officer Corps has not even looked at this document as it died at their level.



1:   You have merely stated that the member was on TD for 2-3 weeks - that does not mean he is on operation or training exercise.

2.  Perhaps the Officer Corps did read the document and noted that it said MAY be granted and decided 3 weeks TD was not good enough for the special.

Not too bad though - he did get 2 out of 3.


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## Navalsnpr (12 Feb 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> 1:   You have merely stated that the member was on TD for 2-3 weeks - that does not mean he is on operation or training exercise.
> 
> 2.  Perhaps the Officer Corps did read the document and noted that it said MAY be granted and decided 3 weeks TD was not good enough for the special.
> 
> Not too bad though - he did get 2 out of 3.



So, I guess the problem lies with how the new manual is written. What is the difference between going to the other side of the counrty for Training, Operational Reasons or sitting on a training board. If you are not sleeping in your own bed at the end of the day, it should not matter. 

If person A goes to Ottawa for 20 days on course, person B goes to Ottawa for 20 days to work for operational reasons and person C goes to Ottawa for 20 days to attend NDHQ meetings. All three members are from a base in another province. Shouldn't all three individuals should be compensated the same?


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## BinRat55 (13 Feb 2009)

On another note (same topic though) I attempted to sell my accumulated leave as per the new leave manual (Payment in Leiu of Accumulated Leave) and I was told that I couldn't as per the QR&O ref. I said please look again. They said no - the QR&O says.....

My leave (10 days) was accumulated in 1999 / 2000. You be the judge. They completely denied the Manual ref and said the QR&O ref was boss basically.


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## CountDC (13 Feb 2009)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> So, I guess the problem lies with how the new manual is written. What is the difference between going to the other side of the counrty for Training, Operational Reasons or sitting on a training board. If you are not sleeping in your own bed at the end of the day, it should not matter.
> 
> If person A goes to Ottawa for 20 days on course, person B goes to Ottawa for 20 days to work for operational reasons and person C goes to Ottawa for 20 days to attend NDHQ meetings. All three members are from a base in another province. Shouldn't all three individuals should be compensated the same?



Just to unclarify - it says "for operations" not "operational reasons" - another unclear statement.  I take it to mean the member is on an operation.  Operational reasons on the other hand could be the member is here for dag, pre-departure briefings, meeting with operational clerks for pay/admin processing.

The only reason I could think of for the difference is that maybe they were thinking someone on operation or training exercise would not have all the comforts of hard quarters enjoyed by those attending meetings.


----------



## CountDC (13 Feb 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> On another note (same topic though) I attempted to sell my accumulated leave as per the new leave manual (Payment in Leiu of Accumulated Leave) and I was told that I couldn't as per the QR&O ref. I said please look again. They said no - the QR&O says.....
> 
> My leave (10 days) was accumulated in 1999 / 2000. You be the judge. They completely denied the Manual ref and said the QR&O ref was boss basically.



umm - what QR&O are they quoting?  I looked at 16.15 Accumulated and it does not say anything there about not being able to sell it.   

By the way - who are they?  The payment is approved/denied by a Formation Commander.  I am hoping that this is just not your local clerk telling you no.


----------



## George Wallace (13 Feb 2009)

Years ago, I sold some of my Leave back (Germany days) and on Release, regretted it.  What I still had left really did come in handy, but I was still three days shy of 1 Apr as a final Release Date.  That Leave does come in handy to cover such things as the LWOP, you may have had on Enrolment so many years ago, and is calculated and affects your Release.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Feb 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> On another note (same topic though) I attempted to sell my accumulated leave as per the new leave manual (Payment in Leiu of Accumulated Leave) and I was told that I couldn't as per the QR&O ref. I said please look again. They said no - the QR&O says.....
> 
> My leave (10 days) was accumulated in 1999 / 2000. You be the judge. They completely denied the Manual ref and said the QR&O ref was boss basically.



Here's the legal hierarcy:

(1) Laws of the country.  For the military, primarily the National Defence Act, with the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act and the Financial Administration Act also having significant roles.

(2) Regulations.  Made under the authority of an Act of Parliament.  Such things as the QR&Os (unique in that they are not Gazetted), or the CF Superannuation Regulations.

(3) Orders.  Such as CFAOs or DOADs.  Made under the authority of Regulations.

(4) Other manuals etc.


In this case, the Leave Manual is a single collection of a variety of policies and orders.  If that manual refers to laws or Regulations and makes a mistake, the regulation or law takes precedence.

Looking at chapter 4 of the new leave manual, when discussing cash out of accumulated leave accumulated after 01 April 1996, a member may request cash-out, but



> The approval authority for payment in lieu of leave accumulated since 1 April 1996 is the Formation Commander or, where there is no Formation Commander in the member’s chain of command, the OCC. The approval authority shall not be delegated.



This is per CBI 205.76.

Seems consistent with the leave manual to me.


----------



## CountDC (13 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Years ago, I sold some of my Leave back (Germany days) and on Release, regretted it.  What I still had left really did come in handy, but I was still three days shy of 1 Apr as a final Release Date.  That Leave does come in handy to cover such things as the LWOP, you may have had on Enrolment so many years ago, and is calculated and affects your Release.



Ouch - couldn't adjust things to cover those 3 days?


----------



## George Wallace (13 Feb 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Ouch - couldn't adjust things to cover those 3 days?



Release date was 17 Dec, then Ann Lve, Stat Holidays, Acc Lve, etc. and it just wasn't enough.  I failed to do the calculation the previous Apr when I took Ann to go to Europe.  My fault.  Just another little calculation someone else getting out should remember to do.


----------



## CountDC (13 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Release date was 17 Dec, then Ann Lve, Stat Holidays, Acc Lve, etc. and it just wasn't enough.  I failed to do the calculation the previous Apr when I took Ann to go to Europe.  My fault.  Just another little calculation someone else getting out should remember to do.



hmmm - guess it is another one of those things where clerks were taught differently depending on the course they were on.  On my 5s we were taught as a release clerk we were to calculate everything out and if close as yours was then talk to the mbr.  We were taught it was our job to look after the member and get the release date adjusted if the member agreed to it (surprisingly enough some members were so fed up they just wanted out as fast as they could and didn't care about the finance impact).


----------



## George Wallace (13 Feb 2009)

It may have been able to work, but I think it is "illegal" to give Short and Special Leaves to someone on Terminal Lve (or Release).


----------



## BinRat55 (13 Feb 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> umm - what QR&O are they quoting?  I looked at 16.15 Accumulated and it does not say anything there about not being able to sell it.
> 
> By the way - who are they?  The payment is approved/denied by a Formation Commander.  I am hoping that this is just not your local clerk telling you no.



Not exactly - our CC is getting guidance from (Ottawa?) who says that leave cannot be sold until there is a National Cashout Program. What I got from the ref is that is only applicable to "Accrued". Again, my leave was accumulated in 1999 / 2000...


----------



## George Wallace (13 Feb 2009)

???   Are not "Accrued" and "Accumulated" Lve the same thing?


----------



## aesop081 (13 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???   Are not "Accrued" and "Accumulated" Lve the same thing?



Nope


----------



## dangerboy (13 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???   Are not "Accrued" and "Accumulated" Lve the same thing?


Here is what the leave manual's definitions are:

1.1 Definitions
1.1.01 Accrued leave
Accrued Leave is leave that was accumulated prior to 1 April 1996. It is recorded separately from leave accumulated since 1 April 1996. Accrued Leave shall not count against the accumulated leave limits set out in QR&O 16.15, Accumulated Leave.
1.1.02 Accumulated leave
Accumulated Leave means annual leave not taken during a leave year, carried over into subsequent leave years and remaining separate from annual leave.
Unless otherwise specified, Accumulated Leave is to mean both Accrued and Accumulated Leave.
1


----------



## BinRat55 (28 Feb 2009)

Administrative update - my references finally made sense to the right people. Was paid out last Thursday. Military writing skills and using the proper chain of command makes a world of difference...


----------



## Rinker (2 Jul 2009)

I was just wondering would it be frowned upon if after my original 3 year contract was up, if I took three months off. Would I be frowned upon and would it have any significant impact on my career. After the three months I would re-sign. Or would they just keep me in the CF and not give me pay as to keep the paper work down. Not sworn in yet, but something came up. I could not do it, but I would prefer to do it.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (2 Jul 2009)

Unless you have a leave pass you can't take three months off.  You would either have to release and rejoin, or re-sign and go on leave/LWOP.
Of course if you are on leave/LWOP you could be recalled.

If you want to be absolutely sure that you can't get called back, release.


----------



## Occam (2 Jul 2009)

Rinker said:
			
		

> I was just wondering would it be frowned upon if after my original 3 year contract was up, if I took three months off. Would I be frowned upon and would it have any significant impact on my career. After the three months I would re-sign. Or would they just keep me in the CF and not give me pay as to keep the paper work down. Not sworn in yet, but something came up. I could not do it, but I would prefer to do it.



You're not sworn in yet, and you're considering requesting 90 days LWOP?  What for?  There might be something more appropriate.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Jul 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> You're not sworn in yet, and you're considering requesting 90 days LWOP?  What for?  There might be something more appropriate.



Actually, my read was he/she isn't in yet but is asking if they can take a 90 LWOP after their 3 year VIE.  *scratches head*


----------



## Occam (2 Jul 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Actually, my read was he/she isn't in yet but is asking if they can take a 90 LWOP after their 3 year VIE.  *scratches head*



You're right, it does look that way...which is even more puzzling.  Why would someone want to know if they can get 90 days LWOP at the end of a VIE that they haven't even been offered yet?  I give the boss the evil eye when I get asked in April to plot my summer leave...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Jul 2009)

Rinker said:
			
		

> I was just wondering would it be frowned upon if after my original 3 year contract was up, if I took three months off. Would I be frowned upon and would it have any significant impact on my career. After the three months I would re-sign. Or would they just keep me in the CF and not give me pay as to keep the paper work down. Not sworn in yet, but something came up. I could not do it, but I would prefer to do it.


:rofl:

Sorry


----------



## Rinker (2 Jul 2009)

Like I said Would it be frowned upon, recce guy gave me the response I was looking for. I just would like to do some mountain climbing as I don't think I could simply just take off a 2 weeks here and there. Not saying I will do it. Just food for thought for me right now.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (2 Jul 2009)

Taking two weeks off here and there is normally not a problem so long as you make the here and there fall in line with your units block leave period if they have one.  Remember, as a brand new enrollee, you get 20 days of leave a year, that doesn't include weekends, statutory holidays, short leave granted by CO, special leave due to deployment/Christmas/New Years.

For example, Christmas/New Year period:
Three stat- Christmas Day/Boxing Day/New Years Day
Two special- Normally granted forces wide
Two short- Sometimes granted by CO
So you've got seven days already, add in the weekend that will bridge and you're up to nine.  Throw in three annual, and you've got two more weekend slotted in there.  So for three days leave you've got two weeks off.
Easter, you've got four day weekend to work with.
Long weekends in August and September (Bank holiday and Labour Day) allow you stretch leave.
With me, 25 days leave a year, I can normally get 2.5 to 3 weeks off at Christmas, 2 weeks straight some other time during the year, and a few long weekends.
But if you want three months to go climbing, get an adventure training trip organized (good luck there), get your CoC to support it as a PR gig (even better luck), or take your release and rejoin.


----------



## bradlupa (2 Jul 2009)

I'm hoping to be able to take 1 week in spring and 3 in fall as to accommodate for my hunting group. The spring is not a biggy as it is just white tail, but the fall is a major as Moose opens up. I know this fall is not in the question as I will be in Basic but as for next I sure hope I can get it. 

This year I had to give/sell my bull tag to my friend as I will be unable to make the hunt, but I will still get some meat for the tag.


----------



## George Wallace (2 Jul 2009)

bradlupa said:
			
		

> I'm hoping to be able to take 1 week in spring and 3 in fall as to accommodate for my hunting group. The spring is not a biggy as it is just white tail, but the fall is a major as Moose opens up. I know this fall is not in the question as I will be in Basic but as for next I sure hope I can get it.
> 
> This year I had to give/sell my bull tag to my friend as I will be unable to make the hunt, but I will still get some meat for the tag.



There goes your 20 days.  I guess you just volunteered to do duty on Christmas/New Years break.    ;D


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Jul 2009)

Maybe its just me but of all the 4 jobs I've had in my life the vacation timings were never a consideration before I was even hired......


----------



## bradlupa (2 Jul 2009)

I have been doing the same hunt for 8 years, and working Christmas comes with my job anyways.  I have alsways been on call during those Holidays as I owned my company. 

Hey its the only time I actually get away from the wife (thats allowed) for an extended period of time.  She is gone for most of the summer at shows for her horses, so that is when I get to spend my money and she dosent complain. 



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Maybe its just me but of all the 4 jobs I've had in my life the vacation timings were never a consideration before I was even hired......



Mostly not, but i'm not thinking of this year it is next, heck I may not even be around, could be on tour or something.


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## Rinker (2 Jul 2009)

Well I don't think anyone signing up for the army is joining for the leave. We are just curious as to know what leave if any applies.


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## George Wallace (2 Jul 2009)

Rinker said:
			
		

> Well I don't think anyone signing up for the army is joining for the leave. We are just curious as to know what leave if any applies.



So?  We have lots of topics that have covered the subject of Leave.  Leave at Christmas.  Leave in between Crses.  Embarkation Leave.  Disembarkation Leave.  Compassionate Leave.  Special Leave.  Short Leave.  Statatory Holidays.  Provincial Holidays.  Leave for this.  Leave for that.  All kinds of Leave.  I am sure you could have found your answers, or can now find your answers, with a short look.


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## Rinker (3 Jul 2009)

It was a reply to Bruce monkhouse, and really this was a legitimate place to ask my question. It my question was unique it may have been under special leave but I would not have thought to call it that. And yes I have my answer thanks to support/experience army.ca has.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (3 Jul 2009)

That's a great idea.  Apply for three months special leave to go climbing!


----------



## kincanucks (3 Jul 2009)

Jesus Wept!  These questions keep getting dumber and dumber.  When and where you can take leave should be the least of your worries right now. Is there a smiley thingy for shooting yourself?


----------



## c4th (3 Jul 2009)

Rinker said:
			
		

> Well I don't think anyone signing up for the army is joining for the leave. We are just curious as to know what leave if any applies.



I did.  That and the life of a rock star.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Jul 2009)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Jesus Wept!  These questions keep getting dumber and dumber.  When and where you can take leave should be the least of your worries right now. Is there a smiley thingy for shooting yourself?



I'll keep looking for your smiley, but in the meantime, perhaps this will suffice.






or maybe this.


----------



## George Wallace (3 Jul 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'll keep looking for your smiley, but in the meantime, perhaps this will suffice.



I think that is more than adequate.   ;D


----------



## kincanucks (4 Jul 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'll keep looking for your smiley, but in the meantime, perhaps this will suffice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She used to work at my recruiting detachment but we had to let her go as it was costing a fortune in shovels.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Jul 2009)

Guess what?  If you want more than 30 days Leave Without Pay (LWOP), it must be authorized by the CDS.

QR&O - Chap 16 Leave, para 16.25



> 16.25 – LEAVE WITHOUT PAY AND ALLOWANCES
> 
> An officer or non-commissioned member may be granted leave without pay and allowances, in the circumstances prescribed in orders issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for a period:
> 
> ...



I'm quite sure it would have to be pretty special circumstances.

Edit to add link.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jul 2009)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Is there a smiley thingy for shooting yourself?



Will this do?
http://www.dvdplaza.fi/galleria/data/606/thumbs/suicide-smiley.gif


----------



## ballz (27 Apr 2010)

Did a search couldn't find anything... This could go on the RMC/ROTP board but since it's really nothing specifically to do with those programs I figure it's better here.

My course (BMOQ-L, formerly CAP) starts on 25 May 10, and the academic year ended for me on 21 Apr 10. Between those dates, we're supposed to go on EWAT (Employment While Awaiting Training).

A few weeks before 3 Mar 10, I went in to see my ULO about something and brought up if he had any idea what I would be doing for EWAT when school ended. He didn't know what EWAT was and after I explained it and said I was infantry, he said "well I guess we can see if we can employ you up at 1RNfldR."

On 3 Mar 10, an email was sent out to all the ULO students asking for when our semester ended. I responded and said 21 Apr 10. 

On 21 Apr 10, having not heard anything back, I emailed and said that the academic year was officially over and that I would wait for further instruction. 

Today (27 Apr 10) I received a phone call and we discussed the situation. Apparently they don't know what to do with me or where to put me or whatever. I have to go down Thursday and see him and "hopefully he'll have something for me to do," or, what seems to be the idea here is, "we'll have to put you on leave."

Can they do this? Is there anything I can do to prevent it? I did my due diligence, and furthermore, what is the difference in putting me on EWAT now, doing nothing, and putting me on EWAT in August, and doing nothing? For me there is a big difference.

I need my leave for a wedding in August (I'm supposed to stand), my grandparents 50th Anniversary in August, and the only time I get to see my parents is in August when they come to Newfoundland and I go to where they are (8 hrs away) to see them, and in Christmas when I fly to Alberta to see them.

If I'm put on leave now, I won't have any leave for August or Christmas (I don't even have enough leave to get me to the start of the course, so I don't know how they plan on working around that). At our SEM brief, we were told that "we're adults now, we have to plan ahead and be responsible with our leave." It seems I am not the one that's guilty of not planning ahead here but I'm going to be the one that has to pay for it...


----------



## CountDC (27 Apr 2010)

Yes they can:

Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual - CFLPM 3.1.05 Ordering members on annual leave

What you can do is submit your memo detailing your leave plan for the year and mention the reason you are planning leave for those periods.  Then cross your fingers and hope that your leave plan is supported. I would even attach a completed leave form for August requesting it be approved so that you can confirm that you will be able to stand.  Hopefully the Anniversary is around the same date so you can cover it all in one period.

It might help if you could talk to local units and see if one of them would be willing to take you under their wing for a few weeks.  Never seen a unit that didn't have something they could use a spare body for.


----------



## MJP (27 Apr 2010)

Doh, too slow on the post button.......do what CountDC says 

Write a memo detailing it what you wrote here to your SEM and ULO.   I know someone that has a similar situation as you and a simple memo outlining a  clear and concise  plan and what you are willing to do to ensure you have leave days in August should suffice.  FWIW, I usually find my own EWATs rather than waiting for the ULO to find one for me to avoid this situation completely.  That way I have some control over my leave and I get experience in areas I need.  Finally be prepared to have to use leave, as they can force you to take it, but push for or find an EWAT.


----------



## GAP (27 Apr 2010)

That's a tough job there MJP.....you should be slaving like me!!  ;D


----------



## Task (27 Apr 2010)

A point to note when you are trying to find the alternate employment go down to the reserve unit you wish to work with. Because of the transient  (positional) nature of the reserves, the contact info the ULO has might not work. 

It has been my experience that emailing for employment tend not to be responded to. I rx'd much better results with face to face contact.


----------



## ballz (27 Apr 2010)

Just for the sake of this discussion, here is what is outlined in "Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual - CFLPM 3.1.05 Ordering members on annual leave"

The CO may order a member on annual leave. Prior to doing so, the following factors should be considered:
• That leave accumulation, if applicable, may occur only when the member was unable to take annual leave due to imperative military requirements;
• That the purpose of annual leave is to sustain initiative and enthusiasm; encourage physical and mental well-being; and provide an opportunity for rest and relaxation;
• The wishes of the individual;
• Imperative military requirements;
• The effectiveness of the unit; and
• Unit leave plans.
The Commandant of a CF school, training or educational facility may require that personnel take annual leave prior to reporting for long courses, as the course curriculum may not permit granting leave.

None of the things listed would support me being ordered to take leave. I have heard of being ordered to take leave because of deployments and because annual leave was not used up, but this is the exact opposite of annual leave not being used up.

MJP... Who would you usually contact at a given unit (for example, 1RNfldR) to see if they will take you under their wing? I had actually tried to get 5 weeks of SLT during this time but it got shot down somewhere in Borden pretty quick.

Looks like I better start writing up that memo...

Task... thanks, I guess I'll head down tomorrow. Would you recommend just going to their OR and explaining why you are there and going from there then?


----------



## MJP (27 Apr 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> MJP... Who would you usually contact at a given unit (for example, 1RNfldR) to see if they will take you under their wing? I had actually tried to get 5 weeks of SLT during this time but it got shot down somewhere in Borden pretty quick.



They usually have a Reg Force RSS officer or NCO availiable during the day to talk to, and sometimes they have a other staff in during the day.  They might not be able to approve it and may have to get permission from the CO/DCO.  This is usually a formality as I haven't seen anybody turned down…..yet.  



			
				GAP said:
			
		

> That's a tough job there MJP.....you should be slaving like me!!  ;D



Like I said above I try and choose my EWAT.......sometimes there are advantages to it  Besides it isn't like you are working anyway.


----------



## yoman (27 Apr 2010)

You may want to bring up the possibility of them granting you special leave if this doesn't work out for you.

"CFLPM 5.5.01"


> Special Leave (Military Courses) applies to Regular Force or Reserve Force members on Class “B” or "C" reserve service who are in full time attendance on military courses or in full time attendance at educational institutions including Canadian or international Military Colleges.
> 
> The OCC or the Commandant of a Canadian Military College may grant up to 14 consecutive calendar days Special Leave (Military Courses) to a student who is under instruction or awaiting a course of instruction.
> 
> ...


http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf


----------



## chrisf (27 Apr 2010)

Reference contacts, check your PMs.

Given the state of reserve manning right now, there's a very good chance that one of the local units would be interested in somone who's already being paid for.


----------



## Barts (28 Apr 2010)

The Leave Policy Manual covers your exact situation in section 5.6
[quote author=CFLPM 5.6.01]
Special Leave (Education) was introduced to address two distinct situations associated with attendance at an educational institution:
• Situations when members were not required to perform academic or service duties.
• Periods between the cessation of summer training and the date on which a member is required to return to a university or Canadian Military College to begin academic or service training.
When attending an educational institution at public expense, up to 60 days Special Leave (Education) may be granted when the member is not required to perform academic or military duties.[/quote]

But if that fails...

Find any unit you can contact, because EWAT doesn't need to be related to your trade. I've known a pilot working in a supply warehouse and seen an infantry officer working with cadets in Whitehorse - both on EWAT.  You just need to be somewhere (anywhere), or on leave.  

Doing your own legwork to find EWAT placements ties in with the "You are your own career manager" concept.  It might also help get you the placement you want, as you'll be 100% focused on yourself (this time, that's a good thing) instead of depending on someone who's managing multiple files.


----------



## ballz (29 Apr 2010)

Just for an update, since I've received some PMs offering help and although it's sincerely appreciated I would like to clear up that I've got this sorted out now. Got picked up by a good unit and had my first day with them today, learned a lot and expect to learn a ton over the next 4-5 weeks.

I was sketchy about the Special Academic leave idea because at the SEM brief we were told it would only be given out for "legit" reasons but, as it turns out, family-related visits are considered a legit reason, so, no worries there.


----------



## Clancey01 (10 Jun 2011)

I was accepted to RMC for the 2011-2012 year. I was wondering if anyone knew typically when it is possible to get a few days leave. It's my understanding it is at least 7 weeks but I could very well be mistaken. Also does it vary from staff to staff like the rest of the CF courses out there. 

Thanks


----------



## Strike (10 Jun 2011)

Once you go through the Arch of the college, you typically won't be given any leave until the weekend after Ex-Cadet weekend (which is usually the weekend before Thanksgiving).

As for weekdays, pretty much a no-go unless there are compassionate reasons.  Except for statutory holidays of course.


----------



## Clancey01 (10 Jun 2011)

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

I don't suppose if anyone knows if reserve enlisted time will count towards OCdt pay or will they transfer my current rank to the reg force equivalent (I know that pay scale can drop down when counting reserve to reg time) then receive that pay. I know this doesn't have to do with this post and that is the least confusing way I could word that.


----------



## RMCMOM (1 Jul 2011)

I am the mom of a RMCC cadet who just finished her first year.  She did not get any weekend time off until after the Obstacle course, during the reunion weekend she had time that she was able to spend with us.  After the end of FYOP it was like normal university, weekends off except for those few Commodants weekends throughout the school year.  3 weeks at Christmas, there was a 1 week reading break in Feb.  You are at RMC until after Graduation weekend then depending on your summer training depends on how much time you get in the summer.  My daughter got 1 week before starting BMOQ and will get another 2 weeks off after BMOQ before having to be back in Kingston the week before school starts.


----------



## murrdawg (4 Aug 2011)

To answer your question about reserve pay, I know when I was at RMC (about a year ago when I graduated), they were talking about eliminating the "reserve carry over" to RMC cadets. I do not know if this has changed.

Speaking from personal experience, RMCMOM is correct in the leave however, there is a difference. You do have 21 days of annual leave a year. You will use up some for your Christmas holidays, and if you have leftovers by reading break, you will use them then. However, if you have gaps of days between exams, you are allowed to take leave upon submitting a leave pass to either go home earlier for Christmas break, or even just to use them up between exams.


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Aug 2011)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> You do have 21 20 days of annual leave a year.



Fixed that for you.


----------



## murrdawg (4 Aug 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Fixed that for you.



Interesting.... I could never remember how many days I was entitled to until my CELE course, where I was told 21 days if less than 5 years in and 26 days over 5 years..... So those numeros were wrong?


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Aug 2011)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> Interesting.... I could never remember how many days I was entitled to until my CELE course, where I was told 21 days if less than 5 years in and 26 days over 5 years..... So those numeros were wrong?



From the CF Leave Manual:



> A member of the Regular Force with *less than 5 years of service* in the Canadian Forces (including class B and C Reserve service and 1/4 of any Class A Reserve service) is entitled to *20 days* annual leave per leave year
> 
> • A member of the Regular Force who has completed *at 5 years of service* in the Canadian Forces (including class B and C Reserve service and 1/4 of any Class A Reserve service) but less than 28 years of service in the Regular Force is entitled to *25 days* annual leave per leave year



Who the hell told you 21 and 26?   ???


----------



## murrdawg (4 Aug 2011)

A new Captain who got promoted from 2Lt....


----------



## Kaveman (4 Aug 2011)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> To answer your question about reserve pay, I know when I was at RMC (about a year ago when I graduated), they were talking about eliminating the "reserve carry over" to RMC cadets. I do not know if this has changed.



Just gonna throw in my experience here. I got accepted into RMC as a CT from the Reserves so I'm pretty sure that my situation is not anomalous and would apply here. I was in the P Res since I was 16. I was considered a Pte (3) in the P Res - and paid as such - but when I CT'd over to the regs for RMC what they do is they take the total number of _employed_ days you have in (any time you signed your paysheet) and figure out how many real big-boy years you have. After they did that calculation they knocked me down to the Pte (2) pay scale. 

Long story short: Yes your reserve pay scale carries over to RMC, but not quite how you think it would.


----------



## yoman (4 Aug 2011)

Just realize how "lucky" you are compared to all the other ROTP students who are not getting all that money. That's not to say that you deserve it or not its just that a lot of people at RMC don't think its justified. 

Most RMC students and ROTP Civi U students will receive quite a bit more leave then any other CF member so they should consider themselves lucky. Example: last year I received at least 7 weeks off compared to the normal 4 weeks off any other CF member with less then 5 years in would have.


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## Wookilar (5 Aug 2011)

Yoman,

Got a bit of a bone to pick with you, and all the other ROTP members that feel putout over the former P Res members getting paid more doing the same job as you.

I got paid $60K a year to go to RMC, I was an OCdt, same as you. I got paid that much due to my time-in and the rank that I held. It is no different for the former P Res members. You going to try and tell me I should have taken a pay cut? That I didn't deserve that amount of money?

It's time for some people to grow up.

They are not "lucky," they earned it. Just like I did.

Wook


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## Pusser (6 Aug 2011)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> Yoman,
> 
> Got a bit of a bone to pick with you, and all the other ROTP members that feel putout over the former P Res members getting paid more doing the same job as you.
> 
> ...



I have to admit I'm a bit jealous.  When I made the jump from PRes to ROTP, the policy of the day was to release the member from the PRes one day and then immediately enroll them in the Regular Force the next.  This meant you had unbroken service for time credit on your CD, but little else (the pensionality of Reserve service is unaffected by any break in service).  It effectively killed any vested rights to pay.  In short, I went from Reserve Leading Seaman to Regular Naval Cadet overnight and dropped approximately 30% in pay.  It was disappointing, but I got over it and reaped many rewards far greater than that loss of pay (graduating debt-free from university being only the first one).


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## yoman (7 Aug 2011)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> Yoman,
> 
> Got a bit of a bone to pick with you, and all the other ROTP members that feel putout over the former P Res members getting paid more doing the same job as you.
> 
> ...



I think you missed the part where I said that I didn't necessarily think that you didn't deserve it. I take issue with the people who joined the reserves simply to get a pay advantage for when they got to RMC. I'm talking about the people who didn't do any courses and were in the reserves for a vary small amount of time (IE: 3 months for someone I know). That is wrong and I believe something should be done about it. They did nothing to earn it except to show up for a few parade nights before going reg force. Surely even you can agree that that isn't fair?

I'll admit that I am jealous of the former reserve members enjoying roughly triple the salary that I receive. And yes I still do consider them lucky but that doesn't mean that some of them did genouinely deserve it.


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## Neill McKay (7 Aug 2011)

I was surprised to find out that even a P. Res. private 1 makes more that an ROTP OCdt.  (However, getting paid to go to university is a jammy go any way you slice it!)


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## taylorwagner221 (12 Jan 2013)

Hello, I have a question regarding time off. I has allays been my dream to join the infantry as a non commissioned member and I am wondering how much time off do you get like vacation time and general time off and yes I understand its the military I'm going to have to make sacrifices like away from home and stuff. Thank you


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## brihard (12 Jan 2013)

taylorwagner221 said:
			
		

> Hello, I have a question regarding time off. I has allays been my dream to join the infantry as a non commissioned member and I am wondering how much time off do you get like vacation time and general time off and yes I understand its the military I'm going to have to make sacrifices like away from home and stuff. Thank you



When you're on course for your basic training, days will be long and time off limited. You may not get weekends.

Once you're qualified and posted to a unit, believe it or not we all function like more or less normal human beings. Weekends off will be the norm unless there's a good reason not to (you drew a short straw and are on duty; did something stupid and are on duty; your unit is on a training exercise or deployment).

We have a certain amount of paid leave per year; I believe it starts at 20 working days, and goes up with a certain number of years of service. Usually you'll be told you're taking a chunk of this in the summer, a chunk around Christmas, and maybe a chunk in the spring. Many commanders are pretty generous about giving out 'free' leave to add a couple days to these block leaves.

In the infantry, when you're at your unit doing normal stuff and not on an exercise or course, days are often pretty short... Done by 3 or 3:30 isn't unusual.

It's honestly really quite good when all is said and done. But for some periods of time you'll go through long stretches where you open the suck-throttle to full.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2013)

And when you DO have time off all you'll do is talk about work


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## brihard (12 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> And when you DO have time off all you'll do is talk about work



And play call of duty or paintball.


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## pastintop (20 Jan 2013)

You receive 2 days per month of paid leave. In addition, you will receive lots of leave during the Christmas holidays. This is all after your basic training and trade specific training.


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## PMedMoe (21 Jan 2013)

pastintop said:
			
		

> You receive 2 days per month of paid leave. In addition, you will receive lots of leave during the Christmas holidays. This is all after your basic training and trade specific training.



If you're talking about (full time) Reserves, you are correct.  For the Reg F, you get 20 days paid leave per year, plus the possibility of short, special, etc.  After five years, you'll get 25 days per year.


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## The_Falcon (21 Jan 2013)

Also not all organizations do the block leave routine.  Example CFRG, Christmas block yes, but other than that you just had to use your leave up during the year at some point.  Basically how and when you are able to take leave will be explained at each unit you go to.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jan 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> If you're talking about (full time) Reserves, you are correct.  For the Reg F, you get 20 days paid leave per year, plus the possibility of short, special, etc.  After five years, you'll get 25 days per year.



Additional to the 20/25 IIRC, all Stat holidays (9?), 2 days Special Leave during Christmas, any Short Days your unit CO may authorize (some do, some don't at Christmas for example), and any Provincial holidays.

Not to shabby if you ask me!


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## Gunner123 (21 Mar 2013)

So it has come to the end of the year and i still have 5 annual days remaining. My ship is set to sail next month and were are being given PDL. i am currently on course so i am unable to take annual leave. i am able to use 2 days next week prior to the PDL, but that would still leave me with 3 annual leave days. i am being told by my COC that i am not allowed to take the PDL days and must use annual instead. I would have used the annual days this summer, but was informed by my COC that i was unable to take annual leave due to my C&P. are they able to take away my PDL and allow me to only carry over 1 day?


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## PMedMoe (21 Mar 2013)

In _most_ cases, the only time annual is allowed to be carried over is for operational reasons.  Also, what conditions of a C&P would prohibit you from taking annual leave?   ???


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## 211RadOp (21 Mar 2013)

According to A-PP-005-LVE/AG-001 Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual para 5.11.04



> Special Leave (Relocation) in consideration of a member being sent away from their home unit on duty for operations, training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings, on a status other than posting or attached-posting (such as, but not limited to, Temporary Duty), may be denied, withheld or limited at the discretion of the CO.



Although this you are entitled to ask for it (or be granted it by the CO), it is not a guarantee.


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## Gunner123 (21 Mar 2013)

Yeah I read that in the leave manual and figured I would get screwed haha


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## captloadie (28 Mar 2013)

As I sit here at my desk on the 28Th of March, I am wondering, is our leave system broke? Oh, by the way, I'm sitting here in civvies, on annual leave, trying to catch up on some work.

How many others are doing the same, or will be at their desks next week, on leave. How many of us, either through mismanagement, a  skewed sense of our importance, or actual valid reasons that aren't necessarily tied to operational reasons (therefore not authorized to accumulate leave) are forced on leave at end year.

Now, most people probably use all 20/25/30 days of their leave, without being forced to start it on the last day of the Fiscal year. But I know many who don't and only put in the leave pass because they have too. I know all the arguments on why leave is important, but unless we bar people from coming in on their annual leave, aren't we only paying these lip service? And yes, one could argue the CoC should be doing exactly that, but in all honesty, it is usually the senior members of organizations who are the worst offenders. 

I would propose that a third option be written into the regs. Option one is take all your leave. Option two is to accumulate remaining days (continue to strictly control this). Option 3 is to be allowed to waive your entitlement to the remaining leave (also strictly controlled). This last option would have to be accompanied by justification on why it should be allowed, rather than forcing a member on leave. There would also need to be other controls in place, but I would propose this as a starting point for discussion.


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Mar 2013)

I think you should go home.  Work will always be there.


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## PMedMoe (28 Mar 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> I think you should go home.  Work will always be there.



I agree.  And we know why we're not allowed to accumulate leave anymore.  It was nice, but I agree with the reasoning behind it.  Just my  :2c:


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2013)

Know your soldiers and look out for their welfare.


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## ArmyRick (28 Mar 2013)

I agree. Soldiers, usually leadership, are doing the "work in civies" while on leave is 100% bull shat. We CAN NOT tolerate it as an organization. I realize it happens but one observation I have made in this modern army, is we do not prioritize too well (and unable to "let anything go") and the fooking good idea fairy comes along WAY too often adding ridiculous work loads to subordinates. 

Prioritize, prioritize, prioritize.

Leaders, be responsible for your men and KNOW when something must be dropped or shoved to the right!


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## Shamrock (28 Mar 2013)

I propose an amendment to option 3: a crest of a crossed quills over a desk surrounded by a chain laurel. Gun metal grey for sacrificing a career total of 5 days annual, bronze for 10, silver for 20, and gold for 50. The badge will increase in size for days short and special sacrificed. 1" for less than 5 days, 1.5" for 5-20, and 4" for greater than 20 days. 

Placement will be determined by weekends worked. For less than 104, on the lower right sleeve (to include DEU 3B). 105-312 on the right breast in lieu of a command badge, and for greater that 312 weekend days worked, on the beret for all states of dress.


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## dangerboy (28 Mar 2013)

I find most people in key leadership positions within a unit often work during leave.  If they are not physically in the building they have their BlackBerries or work laptops at home doing work. I know for myself I have hit March with a bunch of annual leave remaining and struggling to find the best time to take then, while minimizing the impact to my section.


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## McG (28 Mar 2013)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I would propose that a third option be written into the regs. Option one is take all your leave. Option two is to accumulate remaining days (continue to strictly control this). Option 3 is to be allowed to waive your entitlement to the remaining leave (also strictly controlled). This last option would have to be accompanied by justification on why it should be allowed, rather than forcing a member on leave. There would also need to be other controls in place, but I would propose this as a starting point for discussion.


Hell no!  There should not be an option to waive leave entitlement for the same reason as the is not (and should not be) an option to waive TD entitlements - it becomes a mechanism to exploit service members.  Within a matter of time, some less than scrupulous leadership would find ways to bully and punish pers toward giving away leave.  We already demand enough of service members; we do not need to start taking away leave from those who decide they are too important for it.


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## GnyHwy (28 Mar 2013)

Forgive my ignorance and perhaps I am missing your point,  but what does waiving your entitlement do, other than being able to pat yourself on the back and say "I told you so" somewhere down the road?


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## DAA (28 Mar 2013)

I would think that by "waiving" your entitlement only demonstrates that maybe we are receiving too much leave and could open the door to a review and possible reductions.  My thoughts would be in the area of saying "buy it out" and give me the cash also known as "payment in lieu of annual leave".

Most of the time, I use what I have earned but then there are times when I just don't want to take the leave because I will end up sitting at home doing nothing, while my wife is at work.


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## Jed (28 Mar 2013)

I know that most people continue to work through their leave out of a deep sense of responsibility to the organization and their fellow soldiers. What about those who do so as a means of justifying their PER dots to the right in a futile attempt at eventually earning a promotion?  

This is a problem with any professional organization, Civi or Military.


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Mar 2013)

A few years back I decided that if I could not take leave, then the Army had to buy it from me.  I used that for 3 years, until I encountered a boss in my last job who insisted that I take leave - real leave, without being allowed to come into work.  Both systems work - and are within the current parameters of the system.  The system is not broken - we just don't apply it properly.

Having said that, I am on leave right now, and have just returned from 3 hours at work.  As you have probably surmised, I am in a leadership position, and had to host a visitor to my organisation.  I don't mind that kind of thing at all - it comes with the territory.  

Now I have to go and change back into civvies and catch up on my e-mails  ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Mar 2013)

Anyone who does have trouble burning leave has yet to discover things other than work, like fishing and hiking.   ;D

The CF manages to do HLTA on op's, why can't it be done at home while in garrison?  Growing up, we had a cottage with no phone.  The road to it wasn't marked.  The 2 weeks we were there in the summer was Dad's only time away from the Sqn and that was the only way to get away.

People need time to recharge and I for one say, take your leave even if you are 'just home relaxing'.  That's why we have 2 i/c's, DCOs, etc.


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## DAA (28 Mar 2013)

How about this?   Taking leave, forget about work and "delegating" your responsibilities to someone else who is in a position to perform them.

I think that would help a subordinates PER.   Provided you are actually in a position where you have subordinates.


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## dangerboy (28 Mar 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The CF manages to do HLTA on op's, why can't it be done at home while in garrison?



That is another subject, one that I think we should seriously reconsider.  From the infantry point of view, having HLTA during operations screwed us over.  Did we make it work?  Yes., but we decreased our effectiveness to make it work.


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## Ostrozac (28 Mar 2013)

I had a probable workaholic in my team a few years ago. He would come in early. He would stay late. And he would come in when he was on leave. As in, every day that he was on leave. The LCol we worked for got wind of this, and had the commissionaires deactivate his building pass the next time he went on annual leave. It was a message -- an intentional message to the entire unit -- that he should get a life. And that we all should have lives and hobbies -- wives, kids, motorcycles, horses, golf, XBox, he didn't care what we were doing, but he wanted us to have lives outside of our jobs.

If what you are doing is so frigging important to your unit that you can't be spared for a few days at a time to go on leave -- then what happens to your unit when you break your leg, or get sick? There has to be some redundancy -- everyone is replaceable. For those in command positions, isn't one of the great functions of leave to allow your 2IC to run the shop for a while? And if the commander never takes a break, aren't you setting the example to your juniors that vacations are for wimps, and if they want to succeed, they should also be working through leave? 

For those of you that are doing work while on leave -- I respectfully suggest that you might want to prioritize your tasks, drop the ones that no one really cares about, and find yourself a hobby.  I hear that the kids like Warcraft.


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## Ciskman (28 Mar 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Anyone who does have trouble burning leave has yet to discover things other than work, like fishing and hiking.   ;D
> 
> The CF manages to do HLTA on op's, why can't it be done at home while in garrison?  Growing up, we had a cottage with no phone.  The road to it wasn't marked.  The 2 weeks we were there in the summer was Dad's only time away from the Sqn and that was the only way to get away.
> 
> People need time to recharge and I for one say, take your leave even if you are 'just home relaxing'.  That's why we have 2 i/c's, DCOs, etc.



Well said. Turn of the Blackberrys as well. The military won't implode without you.


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## DAA (28 Mar 2013)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I had a probable workaholic in my team a few years ago. He would come in early. He would stay late. And he would come in when he was on leave. As in, every day that he was on leave. The LCol we worked for got wind of this, and had the commissionaires deactivate his building pass the next time he went on annual leave. It was a message -- an intentional message to the entire unit -- that he should get a life. And that we all should have lives and hobbies -- wives, kids, motorcycles, horses, golf, XBox, he didn't care what we were doing, but he wanted us to have lives outside of our jobs.
> 
> If what you are doing is so frigging important to your unit that you can't be spared for a few days at a time to go on leave -- then what happens to your unit when you break your leg, or get sick? There has to be some redundancy -- everyone is replaceable. For those in command positions, isn't one of the great functions of leave to allow your 2IC to run the shop for a while? And if the commander never takes a break, aren't you setting the example to your juniors that vacations are for wimps, and if they want to succeed, they should also be working through leave?
> 
> For those of you that are doing work while on leave -- I respectfully suggest that you might want to prioritize your tasks, drop the ones that no one really cares about, and find yourself a hobby.  I hear that the kids like Warcraft.



And how did the CDS like being locked out?????


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## Jarnhamar (28 Mar 2013)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I hear that the kids like Warcraft.



What's your guilds name?


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## McG (28 Mar 2013)

It seems the idea of waiving one's leave has been successfully put to death here.

I do think we could create more flexibility to carry forward leave for reasons other than operational.  Having managed civilians, I found it was easy to allow them to bank leave from one year if the employee had a specific plan requiring extra days in the future (ie. the 10 yr family reunion in the homeland, or the Haj).  

It would also be nice if the en of FY annual leave burn did not have to start on or before the last working day of the FY.  Instead, the requirement could be that leave must be approved before the end of FY and used not later than within the first 60 days of the next FY.


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## Nfld Sapper (28 Mar 2013)

My god man that makes sense..... make sure the crystal palace does not get wind of this!

 ;D


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## garb811 (28 Mar 2013)

I'd prefer to see the leave year tied to the calendar year.  Christmas/New Years is the perfect time to burn that left over leave.  Mid-March to Mid-April is just a terrible time to try to get people to burn leave with FY end issues, PERs, upcoming postings etc etc...


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## Jungle (28 Mar 2013)

garb811 said:
			
		

> I'd prefer to see the leave year tied to the calendar year.  Christmas/New Years is the perfect time to burn that left over leave.



I like the idea, but December has unit activities and silly week, and January is preps for winter ex... and COs want their people around. They only command for 2 years, and they want to make the most of them !! Every change of command ceremony is the same: "_I know you've been busy, but the next 2 years will be more busier_". I heard it all about 15 times...


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Mar 2013)

Jungle said:
			
		

> I like the idea, but December has unit activities and silly week, and January is preps for winter ex... and COs want their people around. They only command for 2 years, and they want to make the most of them !! Every change of command ceremony is the same: "_I know you've been busy, but the next 2 years will be more busier_". I heard it all about 15 times...



My single biggest pet peeve.  The MRP demands discipline by commanders - and if not, then discipline *of* commanders.

We don't do the latter because we have confused command-centric (command trumps staff) with commander-centric (no one is permitted to push back against a commander).


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## willy (28 Mar 2013)

It's not just about commander-centric.

I'm a WO.  I'm not a commander of anything.  I'm on lve right now, but I'm in the office.  There was no reasonable opportunity for me to take my full entitlement of annual lve.  If I weren't here today then there would be a multitude of issues pertaining to end-FY asspain that would go off the rails.

Maybe it's not right, but this is just how it is.


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## ArmyRick (28 Mar 2013)

How it is? Thats not acceptable. Your CSM and RSM should be explaining why your working on your leave and there was absolutely no alternative? Some higher people need to start losing their jobs and maybe people will get the message and start practicing army ethics.


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2013)

Why is it only time to begin planning leave in March.  "Oops, still have 15 left..."

New FY starts on Monday.  My leave plan for next year (60% complete) has been submitted and approved with travel bookings already made; the other 40% is pencilled in, pending confirmation of conflicts with others.

Not possible for everyone - understood.  But too often people don't have a leave plan - they have a "I'll take leave if I think about it" attitude.


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## Ostrozac (28 Mar 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> And how did the CDS like being locked out?????



I know that I've seen Acting CDS messages which basically say that if you need something signed, call the VCDS, because the CDS is on vacation. Which sets a good example for everyone. If Gen Natynczyk and General Hillier could find time to go to the Caribbean -- then you can too.


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## Infanteer (29 Mar 2013)

I just go out of town every time I'm on leave - no itch to come in to work that day.

I have learned that it is best to use as much time off in the summer as you can (unless one is a hunter) as if you don't, you'll be forced to burn it off in Feb/Mar.


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## willy (29 Mar 2013)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> How it is? Thats not acceptable. Your CSM and RSM should be explaining why your working on your leave and there was absolutely no alternative? Some higher people need to start losing their jobs and maybe people will get the message and start practicing army ethics.



Rick I am the SSM.  On the one hand I agree with you: It's not OK that people come in to work while they're supposed to be on lve.  On the other hand, as the guy who does it to himself, sometimes there's no choice.  Maybe it's the price of leadership.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Mar 2013)

Willy said:
			
		

> Rick I am the SSM.  On the one hand I agree with you: It's not OK that people come in to work while they're supposed to be on lve.  On the other hand, as the guy who does it to himself, sometimes there's no choice.  Maybe it's the price of leadership.



Sorry, I can't agree with the yellow text parts.


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## Pat in Halifax (29 Mar 2013)

Willy said:
			
		

> Rick I am the SSM.  On the one hand I agree with you: It's not OK that people come in to work while they're supposed to be on lve.  On the other hand, as the guy who does it to himself, sometimes there's no choice.  Maybe it's the price of leadership.


I agree too. We can all plan (I am sure we all do) our leave roughly for the year by about July. That said, unexpected postings happen, unexpected deadlines are raised, unplanned oversite committees identify your workplace, world events trigger Unit readiness levels; a whole hockey sock full. I, myself had one day left (yesterday) and yes, I was in for about 3 hours. Why? Because the situation wrt my work changed between secure Thursday and Friday morning. It happens...probably way too often and to way too many people-I have seen good people burn out. For those that haven't been in this situation, I appreciate your lack of understanding. Yes, two previous CDSs buggerred off for two weeks down south, as have many of us. It is the unplanned that we need to learn to 'plan' for. I usually try to 'overuse' leave as I still have 15 of the old accumulated so have a fall back if an opportunity arises; many do not.
For anyone on the Projects in Ottawa, this is common-place to do for senior personnel. The other option is to work every night until 10 (many of us in Ottawa on IR did that...because we had no life!) but that is not the resolution to the problem. The problem is that every single one of us regardless of rank or environment is triple (plus) hatted. We have MUCH more on our plates than our contemporaries of even 25 years ago. 
I understand the argument that this should not be practiced nor permitted but I ask someone to tell me what a group is to do if (for example) TB ups its timeline 60 days and now wants that Progrep next Tuesday instead of July?


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## Haggis (29 Mar 2013)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> The other option is to work every night until 10 (many of us in Ottawa on IR did that...because we had no life!)



There are many in Ottawa who are not on IR and still work ridiculous hours because that's what's required to meet the deliverables.  As you noted, not all deliverables originate from within the CF (MINQUIRIES, for example).

I, too, was one of those folks who worked in a directorate that was so busy and so understaffed (i.e. one deep in every capacity) that having a signed CF100 just allowed you to come to work in civvies.


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## riggermade (29 Mar 2013)

When I was in and took leave I did not go in to work... leave is to get away from work.  Before I got out I was in a unit and was called into the CSM's office and questioned to why I didn't answer my e-mails and when I said I was on leave their response was I should still be coming in to check e-mails... I just laughed at them.  Funny I was only there 5 months then released


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## Ralph (29 Mar 2013)

If a signed leave pass means I work from home vice garrison, but allows me the honour of not shaving/changing out of my pyjamas, that's a worthwhile trade-off.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (29 Mar 2013)

You are still supposed shave on leave.   ;D


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## riggermade (29 Mar 2013)

The same unit that tried to make me GDWO while I was on sick leave after surgery on my foot... in Petawawa... any guesses?


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## brihard (29 Mar 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> You are still supposed shave on leave.   ;D



Oops. I am one furry SOB right now. Going on eight days.  ;D

Doesn't sound like our leave system is broken. It sounds like commanders and leaders aren't stepping up and pushing the issue higher when they are genuinely undermanned for _necessary, critical_ work.

Would it be safe to bet that these are the same workplaces where you're likely out of luck trying to fit any real PT into a workday like we're supposed to?


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## Pandora114 (29 Mar 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> You are still supposed shave on leave.   ;D



*looks at husband*

someone forgot to send him that memo.


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## Haggis (29 Mar 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Would it be safe to bet that these are the same workplaces where you're likely out of luck trying to fit any real PT into a workday like we're supposed to?



"You're not paid by the hour, you're paid by the day. Ergo your "workday" is 24 hours long and you can do PT anytime within that 24 hour period."  (Words spoken to me, quite seriously, by a civilian supervisor who is, thankfully, no longer working with/for the DND/CAF.)


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## brihard (29 Mar 2013)

Haggis said:
			
		

> "You're not paid by the hour, you're paid by the day. Ergo your "workday" is 24 hours long and you can do PT anytime within that 24 hour period."  (Words spoken to me, quite seriously, by a civilian supervisor who is, thankfully, no longer working with/for the DND/CAF.)



I'm not even gonna pretend that surprises me.


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## ModlrMike (29 Mar 2013)

Having read the messages up thread, I can only conclude that it's not the leave system that's broken... it's the leadership system. Requiring people to be on leave, and at the same time requiring them to work is a failure of leadership. Period.


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## Shamrock (29 Mar 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Having read the messages up thread, I can only conclude that it's not the leave system that's broken... it's the leadership system. Requiring people to be on leave, and at the same time requiring them to work is a failure of leadership. Period.



I think it's a bit unfair to pin this exclusively on leadership.  I had a subordinate who came in frequently on annual leave because he felt he was so indespensible yet required frequent phone-in sick leave. Less the phone-in leave, I myself am a terrible offender. 

Me, I've gone my first solid week of not coming in to work for nothing. My Blackberry is at the office, forwarded to my home line. I've gotten a few panicked calls, but that highlights my failure to prepare my workspace for my extraction, not a failure in my leadership. 

I've recently undertaken a highly regimented schedule at work, and where I adhere to it, I'm typically done work early. I spend two consolidated hours on email, two consolidated hours on paper, and two consolidated hours dealing with people. I've also begun vastly limting email - they are the biggest time wasters my office. If its urgent or simple, use the phone. If its routine or requires a paper trail, use a memo (this, paradoxically, requires less paper anyhow).  

I know I'm going in to work to a huge backlog of work. I don't care. My lack of efficiency has cost me enough recreation time. I'll just do what army people do to address this problem. Warning security recce plan.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Mar 2013)

When your handed your leave pass, you should be required to hand over your office keys and blackberry. You can have them back from the Orderly Sgt when you return to work.

There is absolutely no requirement to be working while on leave (some exceptions for Base Commanders, etc, aside). If your working on leave, you've either mismanaged your time and should be taken to task for that or if it's because of unforseen workloads, it's the fault of those doling out the work.

Either case is a failure of leadership.

When you take a cup of water from a bucket, it doesn't leave a hole. 

Nobody is that indispensable that you have to do things on your off time.


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## McG (29 Mar 2013)

Perhapse, with a view to establishing a culture of not dragging your work on leave with you, the MND could start sending his various holiday salutations on the weekday prior to the stat holiday (or early December to come before block leave in the case of Christmas).  This makes more sense than sending an email when you expect the majority of recipients to be on leave at its moment of relevance.


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## medicineman (29 Mar 2013)

I seem to remember back when I was a baby Pte that I had to turn my ration card in whenever I went on leave if I was a shack dweller...maybe we should all have work passes for accessing work regardless of rank or area of employment that has to be turned in - a 1 for 1 trade with your leave pass.  The duty dork at the door can then give you your pass back on the appointed day when you show them the leave pass das expired...and they have orders not to let anyone in with a valid leave pass UNLESS there has been a recall from leave.  Also, unless of paramount necessity (CO's/RSM's etc), blackberries also get turned in.  Of course, the passes would likely eat into some other good idea fairy's useless idea budget...

 :2c:

MM


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## George Wallace (29 Mar 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> Perhapse, with a view to establishing a culture of not dragging your work on leave with you, the MND could start sending his various holiday salutations on the weekday prior to the stat holiday (or early December to come before block leave in the case of Christmas).  This makes more sense than sending an email when you expect the majority of recipients to be on leave at its moment of relevance.



Now, where would the fun in that be?   ;D


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## Haggis (29 Mar 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> When your handed your leave pass, you should be required to hand over your office keys and blackberry. You can have them back from the Orderly Sgt when you return to work.



E-mail and Blackberries are the worst enemy of successfully enjoying leave.  Nobody pays attention to your "out of office" messages and far too many people know our BB numbers (they can be found in the GAL anyways).

In the days of communications by memos, letters and face-to-face conversation, we didn't have to worry about coming back to 100-150 unread messages after a few days off during prime time (AKA not block leave).  Another leave killer is that damned "Read Receipt" feature that allows people to instantly know when you are back at your desk (or worse, have your BB in your hand) so they can call you about the e-mail they know you just read seconds ago.


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## Shamrock (29 Mar 2013)

Haggis said:
			
		

> E-mail and Blackberries are the worst enemy of successfully enjoying leave.  Nobody pays attention to your "out of office" messages and far too many people know our BB numbers (they can be found in the GAL anyways).
> 
> In the days of communications by memos, letters and face-to-face conversation, we didn't have to worry about coming back to 100-150 unread messages after a few days off during prime time (AKA not block leave).  Another leave killer is that damned "Read Receipt" feature that allows people to instantly know when you are back at your desk (or worse, have your BB in your hand) so they can call you about the e-mail they know you just read seconds ago.



E-mail yourself a large item to fill your inbox.


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## PAdm (29 Mar 2013)

The leave system is fine.  It is us who are broken.  

We try to take weeks at a time when that is not always possible.  There is nothing wrong with long weekends and one of my best years was six 4 day weeks I enjoyed in a row.  We seem to believe that if we cannot get weeks at a time we are being hard done by.  And we suck at planning out our leave.

When I was new to the CF, I found myself assisting a Committee of Adjustment.  A member was on leave and killed on the highway.  He had mountains of accumulated leave.  The old geezer Committee President look at me and said “son, take your leave and enjoy life as you never know how long you have.”

Leave is an entitlement and it is up to leadership at all levels to ensure folks get leave.  You may not always get what you want when you want (the entire unit cannot take March break), but you should be told to take leave.  I have often popped in while on leave for this or that, and I typically do my PERs at home, but I long ago realized that the system does not crash if I am not around.  If the system cannot get by without little ol me, then we have a bigger problem.  The system can get by without me if I had to rush off on compassionate leave.  The system would carry on without any hesitation if I dropped dead or put in a 30 day release.  So why do we believe the system would suffer an epic fail if we did not come in while on leave?  It is us who believe the system cannot get by without us.  I tell folks that your inbox is much like a dog - it will be waiting for you when you get back from leave, it will be happy to see you and wagging its tail, and it will not hold your absence against you.  Just pick up where you left off.  If you have me as your supervisor, you shall be taking your complete leave entitlement and I do not want to see your smiling face during your leave, unless you are bring me a Tim’s.....  I will also not email you on weekends or call you (unless the place is on fire) if you are on leave or not.


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## Haggis (29 Mar 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> E-mail yourself a large item to fill your inbox.



Others do that for me.  Then, they call my BB and leave a message to tell me my Inbox is full.  D'oh!  (Thank God for "Call Display".)


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## 421_434_226 (29 Mar 2013)

Original deleted not really related to thread, although I have also witnessed and experienced the same, and agree that it is up to the supervisors/leadership to curb this and assist subordinates/co-workers in attempting to have a balanced work/home life.


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## riggermade (29 Mar 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> The leave system is fine.  It is us who are broken.
> 
> We try to take weeks at a time when that is not always possible.  There is nothing wrong with long weekends and one of my best years was six 4 day weeks I enjoyed in a row.  We seem to believe that if we cannot get weeks at a time we are being hard done by.  And we suck at planning out our leave.
> 
> ...




Excellent post.... I always told people they were replaceable and don't expect a phone call once they were out


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## kstart (29 Mar 2013)

> Doesn't sound like our leave system is broken. It sounds like commanders and leaders aren't stepping up and pushing the issue higher when they are genuinely undermanned for necessary, critical work.



Reflecting from a civillian perspective. . .

Concerns I would have would be the degree of unaccounted work hours, and especially in situations where that has become the status quo.  

Are these hidden hours of work documented somehow, in lieu of people getting paid for the extra-hours they put in, the extra jobs they absorb, etc.. It doesn't sound like the reality is going to show up on the data from payroll clerks, since no extra costs in pay for the hidden labour.  Would be a problem if decision-makers are relying on that data alone. . .?

Without that data of hidden work hours (and individuals working e.g. 3ranks/jobs at once, probably causing overtime, unaccounted-for hidden work hours), it's going to skew analyses, affect predictions of labour (rank/unit/role) requirements if not holding the reality of what it actually is and lead to undermanned departments.  Leadership would need to make sure stats are kept of unpaid hours, and not look the other way (as that happens in civvy world, detrimentally) and that data also needs to make it up to those presiding over decisions such as cutbacks, 'stream-lining' of departments, etc. 

Allowing persistent functioning in "crisis mode" as status quo mode, doesn't leave the extra for when actual crisis situations hit and it burns people out, can lead to losing good quality workers that you need, due to illnesses, burnout.  It can make a leader look good for a while in the short-term-- "look at our productivity, functioning with less", something to boast about (as happens in the civvy world, be 'promoted for'). . . but the reality eventually does catch up (burnout, shortage of workers) and one would hope that wouldn't come at a time of 'high operational tempo' and when not having the time to adequately train, supervise and develop others talents into the operationally needed positions. . .


Case Study on Burnout:

I deal with a "workaholic" loved one.  He takes pride in his work; has a very strong work-ethic; extremely loyal; is a team-player-- will put in the extra hours for the good of the company; puts extra hours in to ease upper-management transitions; works extra-hard during 'increased operational tempo'; will help others out if their load is too much, that day, etc.. . . but then he starts covering for other employees who are not working up to speed (and they take advantage of that); they do like the "MIR-Commando"-- when work demands are high, they skip out, get "sick" and so he also covers for that (and one pers is clearly a multiple-user of that-- it's entirely predicable!). . . and so he does extra work to just to keep his own lane clean (believing that if he doesn't cover that work, the product of the work he is actually responsible for will suffer and he will be held to account for it).  He has personal ego-issues/values/principles which are less adaptive to the good of the whole, e.g. to not rat on "slackers" and to not complain about extra work (with a pride, "I can take it", I'm competent)-- what was thought of as temporary, "I'll help them out because it's needed" to gradually losing his entire life to work.  Not healthy for him, and nor for the 'team'. 

Result/Burnout Sickness: This built-up into covering for more positions, jobs on top of what he was responsible for and resulted in him working long, extra hours-- and he lost it so much (not protecting his boundaries); working for free-- when not not even mandated by his profession to do so.

The free-labour, for which the bosses knew, but turned a blind eye to-- and it made them look like masters of productivity, i.e.; less labour, more bang for the buck.  Could sell product competitively, with cheap labour costs.  Short-term benefit for them, until reality hit, because of contracts made with clients which under-estimated real labour hours.  And when that reality caught up, during high operational tempo. . .  The risks are failing to meet terms of contract, to produce what was expected and agreed upon; failure to complete contract on time; boss/owner would have to absorb those costs of failed contract, plus the cost to professional/corporate reputation [which can't be bought back]. . .

To deal with workaholic loved one, who's prided himself on his work ethic, stand behind his work, be accountable for it's quality, etc.; I needed to show him the other side of the equations, reality-check re: the harm to the team, enabling bad work of others, so they escape accountability; potential harm where his hard work is not helping his company and others within the company face reality and the consequences that can have. . .  The big boss was only looking at the payroll-to-labour equations, as they do when brokering contracts with clients on those costs (under-estimating $ value, and time values)-- completely uninformed, not based in reality.  When workaholic left, the co-workers weren't too happy about the long hours for them and there are risks to losing trained workers as a result and that would not be good at high operational tempo times (logistics work situation I'm referring to).

IMO, it's important for any type of leadership (in CF, that is pretty much everyone, isn't it?) to appreciate the fuller picture, and account for hidden labour, so others can be realistic in planning department needs, costs, ranks/roles/positions, etc.  Enabling unnecessary crisis mode functioning through times when that is more easily ameliorated (staff it properly and ready-to-go for higher operational tempos) is not functional and for CF, it's even beyond what's normally predictable tempos (drop-of the hat changes in tempo, requirments) vs. other types of work environments/businesses where there is more control (well, with competent management, analysis, etc.).  

Burnout, contagious effects from the behaviours; over-enabling dysfunctional behaviours and that spreading organizationally can have very high costs, both individually, collectively and organizationally, and also be unaccounted for by just "counting the bean" (the further up, the more detached from the "ground realities" can happen-- communitcation is important). . . some critical components of functioning can be missed. . .  

I think people have identified some important issues, that can have spreading, unwanted systemic effects re: overtime; behaviours incumbent in of IR; multi-roles-- one person doing 3 jobs; overtime as status quo (instead of reserved for when it's absolutely needed). . . hidden labour across the board, and also within some 'departments'/units/HQs (whatever to call it?).  In CF, it seems things are very interdependent across the whole of it all; wouldn't want crumbling in "house of cards", domino effects. . . and in the environment/context of cutbacks and 'streamlining" of sections, etc., I'd be concerned:  You guys protect our Country-- It's important!


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## riggermade (29 Mar 2013)

I was by no means a workaholic... I would be in shortly after 6 most days... I was up so I went in... good time to have peace and quiet and clear emails.. that being said at 3:45 my computer was turned off and it better be an emergency if you called me at home in the evening... I was Coy OPs WO and had a young LT who wanted to impress everybody and she was put in her place rather quickly... she was single and didn'r have a life and if I was on leave it had better be life and death


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## PAdm (30 Mar 2013)

riggermade said:
			
		

> I was by no means a workaholic... I would be in shortly after 6 most days... I was up so I went in... good time to have peace and quiet and clear emails.. that being said at 3:45 my computer was turned off and it better be an emergency if you called me at home in the evening... I was Coy OPs WO and had a young LT who wanted to impress everybody and she was put in her place rather quickly... she was single and didn'r have a life and if I was on leave it had better be life and death



Exactly. I want to see folks give an honest day's work but the norm should be 85% or you do not have any surge capability for the true emergencies. The Cf needs to have a surge capability. I dislike calls at home for any issue that can be addressed on Monday and make this point known.


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## kratz (30 Mar 2013)

kstart said:
			
		

> Reflecting from a civilian perspective. . .



Great post and most of your comments transfer over the the military easily. 
Some food for though. How did the CF grind through the "decade of darkness" without the accounted hours?
We have a mandated job to do and got it done. Burn out is a real issue and has been documented 
within various government departments over the years.


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## Jed (30 Mar 2013)

kratz said:
			
		

> Great post and most of your comments transfer over the the military easily.
> Some food for though. How did the CF grind through the "decade of darkness" without the accounted hours?
> We have a mandated job to do and got it done. Burn out is a real issue and has been documented
> within various government departments over the years.



We ground through the 'decade of darkness' at the expense of putting morale down to a snake's belly level. Amazing how people, civilian or military, will hang in there to put food on the table.


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## Edward Campbell (30 Mar 2013)

A couple of points:

     1. This is not a "new" leave system - it looks a lot like what was in place in the 1960s: only very limited and strictly controlled opportunities to accumulate leave;

     2. There were decades of darkness, beginning in the mid '60s. We all got used to doing more and more with less and less; and

     3. Leave - real, proper "rest and relaxation/holiday" leave matters, especially to older, more senior people who need to do two things -

         a. Get out of the office (or unit lines or or shop floor) and let (*require*) subordinates (to) exercise and demonstrate their leadership/supervisory/technical excellence, and

         b. Focus, if only for a week or two, on the other dominant factor in our lives: family, friends, loved ones - to the total exclusion of the ship, unit or HQ.

A final observation: leave should be granted prior to deploying (embarking) on a tour of operational duty and when returning (disembarking) from the same, provided the tour is something like 300 days or less. Mid tour HLTA is rubbish, but part of the disembarkation process should, usually, involve decompressing.


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## GnyHwy (30 Mar 2013)

We have tracking devices, usually an Excel based product that measures our operational tempo.  Most persons in a leadership role of 30 persons and less probably also keep track with a pen, paper and memory as well.  The ironic thing to keeping stats on tempo is when you are busy you couldn't be bothered to fill the stupid thing out. 

For argument's sake, let's say you did fill the spreadsheet out, and now you have a bunch of stats, that are skewed and tell the story that higher ups work more hours.  Don't we already know that?  What do you expect to do with these stats? Not much sense doing a test if you're not going to doing anything about the results.  Further, the results would be very time sensitive that will change with season and operational rotation. Attaching a number that fluctuates so much and likely has a huge deviation makes it pretty much invalid.  Especially if the solution is moving a few persons to cover the work.  We will be chasing the work all over the place, wasting more effort.

Comds know which of their troops/units are overworked, because their sub-comds tell them so.  If they are not, that is a failure of leadership and will likely get noticed.  Bottomline, we are on salary and we will work until the job is done.  Sometimes that is never, and that is when the prioritizing comes into play; troops need to eat and sleep, and take leave.

The place that truly needs hour keeping stats, which is also a place we do it well, is with fixing our equipment.  This is not important because it tells the tale of overworked mechanics.  It is important for statistics of mean time to repairs for planning purposes.

One of the solutions is redundancy and a clear definition of tasks, and when those tasks need to be absorbed by someone else.  If there is no one that can do your job, then someone needs to be taught, and it doesn't have to be a lower rank.  Duties are often paid lip service to, by printing off the PDR page 1 and signing without reading, amending or enforcing what is written.  Once again a failure in leadership.


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## armyvern (30 Mar 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> Perhapse, with a view to establishing a culture of not dragging your work on leave with you, the MND could start sending his various holiday salutations on the weekday prior to the stat holiday (or early December to come before block leave in the case of Christmas).  This makes more sense than sending an email when you expect the majority of recipients to be on leave at its moment of relevance.



Ahhh, you must be referring to the MNDs CF-wide Easter message sent out to all yesterday morning.  For everyone without crackberries, don't worry - it'll be in your inboxes Tuesday morning waiting for you.


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## armyvern (30 Mar 2013)

Our COs policy on annual leave is pretty simple:  Thou shalt not have any more than 5 days annual leave remaining post Christmas Block leave.  It works for the vast majority of pers who use those 5 days for March Break with their kids etc.  It's a good policy.  Sometimes though, shit happens.  A Unit gets nailed with tasks not expected etc etc.  One Unit the policy is fine and no one has any issues or is required to work during their leave. Next year shit happens and things don't go as well.  It is the nature of this outfit we work in - when CF tasks and work become 100% predictable and routine - we probably wouldn't need a CF anymore.

This year, it didn't work for us in large part caused by the shit-show of last APS brought about by the assinine door-to-door move policy.  With COS dates of our pers who were posted out being in the early summer combined with the COS dates of those posted in being late-summer, we had pers who were only able to get 5-10 days annual leave taken during the period due to our Units' tempo.  We simply couldn't, despite trying our damnedest, marry up incoming and outgoing report dates to the point where it would not have meant financial implications directly upon the CF member's personal bank account as they would have had to absorb the costs for hotels/meals/storage etc of their DF&E due to being outside of the door-to-door policy. Note that we received confirmation that delaying/moving up COS' still did not qualify them for coverage as being "outside of member's control".

Since 01 October, we have spent:
1 week in another province doing our HRT (we do this twice a year as a HR Unit);
2 weeks on Ex - Oct;
3 weeks on Ex - Nov;
Christmas Block Leave (with pers at work pulling all the duties/snow removal [we clear our own lines/compound due to the equipment we hold])
4 weeks on Ex - 07 Jan to 02 Feb;
4 weeks of DRMIS rollout and trg courses;
1 week of SAV.

I also spent an additional 3 weeks away on a career course during Feb/Mar.  Many of them also spent time away on career courses during the summer/winter and doing Unit operational tasks such as LO escorts, RSATs, TLDs etc.  For everyone else, Feb & Mar saw us tearing down Div HQ, receiving 55 seacans, prepping/packing and loading them for JOINTEX5, doing recces to Wainwright, moving seacans to Wainwright (via road move), PERs and end End-FY finalization (neither of which can be bumped right). 

Our leadership saw our troops burn off 5 days in March break so they could be with their kids ... as our kids tend to be older and more understanding of mommies/daddies absence during this period.  We had 7 X Sgts to MWO man the fort during that time period - purchasing, receiving, doing DST, Duty Tfc, Duty Tn shifts, TO&Es, loading seacans, PERs, JOINTEX meetings etc. Each and every one of these 7 had 10+ annual to burn.  

Where the heck does one burn off the leave then!!?? A day here and a day there?  We are doing that now while the troops hold down the fort for the most part, but are answering our crackberries in order to assist them and back them up in their decisions/authorize when required.

Bonus is:  I get to do this from the location where my hubby is thanks to that crackberry.  It's a fair trade off for me.

If I had more people (or less tasks), the situation would be much better - but that is not the way it is these days as you'd be surprised the push-back one might experience when one suggests that something most would consider "tail" : needs to increase in this day and age.  You might also be surprised how pissed off those supporters become as they work until well-post-1600hrs as a matter of routine while they watch their non-sp counterparts screw off at 1430-1500hrs daily to "do nothing somewhere else" - the same ones who would bitch about the "tail" needing to be snipped.  How very ironic.


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## Jed (30 Mar 2013)

Too true AV. Sp jobs suck a lot more during hard financial times and the media limelight is off the CF.


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## kstart (30 Mar 2013)

kratz said:
			
		

> Great post and most of your comments transfer over the the military easily.
> Some food for though. How did the CF grind through the "decade of darkness" without the accounted hours?
> We have a mandated job to do and got it done. Burn out is a real issue and has been documented
> within various government departments over the years.



That was beyond my imagination, good point to connect the two re: effects of "decade of darkness".  I've been on the "lefty-learning curve" (I'm less partisan now  ), but as I learn more from that time period, I feel some restitution is due and I hope generally, re: scaling back, the right lessons are learned and the way forward is given due considerations.  You guys do have far more public support now from attention from A-stan (while unfortunately we were less aware re: many previous ops).

@ GnyHwy:  Good points re: skewed data, and where stats aren't there.  Reasonable and probable where/why stats were missing.  I was just thinking, there's wind-down time operationally and coming a time when cuts are being felt  
and I imagine there'd be a time for evaluation in light of those.  In that case, it's possible to re-open investigative research, and there are other sources of data, in lieu of stats re: "unaccounted-for hidden labour" and qualitative research methods (interviews; unit history through stable and increased operational tempos, etc.) as needed if it is necessary to demonstrate needs re: request further funding of positions, and articulating realistic job positions and their transfer roles re: operational tempos, etc.  Anyway, it could come into play, evaluation of making do, what could be added, etc.  Studies can occur at unit levels, and various ops and beyond as well-- you guys are better at delineating those contexts re: missing data for informed policy making, guidelines and funding of positions issues.  I guess the resulting studies (if/as initiated) go to the top for final funding rulings (and I suppose that's also about negotiations, compromises with GoC, the funders. . .).  I really hope for the best results and the means for holding things to task as necessary.  I hope for earnest appraisals, for the good of the team and teams.


I'm really impressed to see the mindfulness people have here re: importance of leave, managing/preventing, monitoring burnout issues/risks; and the pragmatic considerations and contexts people express here.    It also sounds like CF has really evolved (on-going productive, positive evolution) and is well ahead of the game.

Likewise, there's no shortage of talent here-- It's Awesome  
Carry On. . .


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## GnyHwy (30 Mar 2013)

kstart said:
			
		

> @ GnyHwy:  Good points re: skewed data, and where stats aren't there.  Reasonable and probable where/why stats were missing.  I was just thinking, there's wind-down time operationally and coming a time when cuts are being felt
> and I imagine there'd be a time for evaluation in light of those.  In that case, it's possible to re-open investigative research, and there are other sources of data, in lieu of stats re: "unaccounted-for hidden labour" and qualitative research methods (interviews; unit history through stable and increased operational tempos, etc.) as needed if it is necessary to demonstrate needs re: request further funding of positions, and articulating realistic job positions and their transfer roles re: operational tempos, etc.  Anyway, it could come into play, evaluation of making do, what could be added, etc.  Studies can occur at unit levels, and various ops and beyond as well-- you guys are better at delineating those contexts re: missing data for informed policy making, guidelines and funding of positions issues.  I guess the resulting studies (if/as initiated) go to the top for final funding rulings (and I suppose that's also about negotiations, compromises with GoC, the funders. . .).  I really hope for the best results and the means for holding things to task as necessary.  I hope for earnest appraisals, for the good of the team and teams.



I'm tracking and I do understand the importance and potential value of good stats.  A significant difficulty with keeping stats, particularly when it comes to money is that there is no real way to place a value or number on the work we do.  We do not make profits, therefore you cannot really tell who is getting the most value out of their budget or even how much they improved because of the money.  It is much easier to count the money spent, then it is understand what good the money did.  

And who says that a person working after hours or extra days means they are doing a good job and being productive.  Maybe they suck and need the extra time to get the work done. >

Lastly, another problem with the military keeping stats is that persons who are capable are already busy, and we don't have any cash to higher a contractor.


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## Armymedic (30 Mar 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> The leave system is fine.  It is us who are broken.
> 
> We try to take weeks at a time when that is not always possible.  There is nothing wrong with long weekends and one of my best years was six 4 day weeks I enjoyed in a row.  We seem to believe that if we cannot get weeks at a time we are being hard done by.  And we suck at planning out our leave.
> 
> ...



My feelings as well. No one should complain they "have to" take leave, as it is a benefit with full pay. Other occupations would enjoy such a perk to their employment. As leaders, we need to ensure our subordinates have the time off to relax and recharge. Also, we must ensure our subordinates and supervisors can cover our leave time so we can recharge. Our Op Tempo is imposed from within the organization, and therefore burn-out is an ailment of our own doing.

If our COs and Commanders give direction in the form of a annual leave plan and we, as leaders fail to follow it, where does fault lay?


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## PPCLI Guy (31 Mar 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If I had more people (or less tasks), the situation would be much better - but that is not the way it is these days as you'd be surprised the push-back one might experience when one suggests that something most would consider "tail" : needs to increase in this day and age.  You might also be surprised how pissed off those supporters become as they work until well-post-1600hrs as a matter of routine while they watch their non-sp counterparts screw off at 1430-1500hrs daily to "do nothing somewhere else" - the same ones who would bitch about the "tail" needing to be snipped.  How very ironic.



Anyone who would consider CSS as tail, especially in a unit like yours, has their head up their ass.  Our trouble is not too much tail (in fact we have way too little) - it is too much head.


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## Edward Campbell (31 Mar 2013)

:goodpost:   and +300 Milpoints inbound for that insightful post, PPCLI GUY


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## AKa (2 Apr 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> We try to take weeks at a time when that is not always possible.  There is nothing wrong with long weekends and one of my best years was six 4 day weeks I enjoyed in a row.  We seem to believe that if we cannot get weeks at a time we are being hard done by.  And we suck at planning out our leave.



PAdm,

While three-day weekends may have worked for you, they are not sufficient for everyone.  When I had stressful jobs, I only started to unwind by day 3-4.  And the last couple days I started thinking about getting ready to get back to work.  The purpose of leave is for refreshing us so we return to our duties with renewed energy and enthusiasm.  A long weekend won't necessarily meet that requirement.  

I'm looking for a study we discussed on an HR course.  This study found that two weeks is the optimal amount of time most require to really get their heads out of the office.   My observations over my career seem to support this theory as well.

But frankly, something is seriously wrong if people can't/won't take a week or so off a couple times a year.  We're supposed to be enforcing and demonstrating a work/life balance.

I'm just finishing 7 short weeks in a row.  While it was nice, I really did not find it replaced a proper vacation.    

Cheers,

AK


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## McG (2 Apr 2013)

Many years ago, I did a 3.5 month Class B task in a less than happening place.  By the rules, everyone had to take leave earned during the period of employment and the OC insisted everyone would take the two short per month.  Without a car and anywhere to go, I found the artificial long-weekend to be overly painfull ... nothing productive to do and everyone else was working.  However, I did find that I enjoyed taking every Wednesday off.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Apr 2013)

AK said:
			
		

> .... I'm looking for a study we discussed on an HR course.  This study found that two weeks is the optimal amount of time most require to really get their heads out of the office.   My observations over my career seem to support this theory as well ....


This one talks about 10 days being optimal (summary here).

I have to agree with those who say several long weekends may not be as restful as several days in a row.  From the outside looking in, isn't everybody supposed to be, at one level, indispensible?  That said, I know a lot of organizations also follow corrollaries to that such as "give the work to the busiest person so you know it gets done".


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## PAdm (2 Apr 2013)

AK said:
			
		

> PAdm,
> 
> While three-day weekends may have worked for you, they are not sufficient for everyone.  When I had stressful jobs, I only started to unwind by day 3-4.  And the last couple days I started thinking about getting ready to get back to work.  The purpose of leave is for refreshing us so we return to our duties with renewed energy and enthusiasm.  A long weekend won't necessarily meet that requirement.



Hi AK.  No argument from me.  If all you took all year were simply long weekends, I would agree fully that you cannot unwind and truly relax.  So no argument from me.  To add context to my comment, I believe that folks need at least 2 weeks during the summer (summer is short, kids are out of school, etc), and at least 2 weeks at Christmas.  This is 2 very nice breaks during the year, and possibly longer if you can tack on a few more days.  Add to this a number of long weekends or March Break with your remaining leave and it is not a bad year.  I made the long weekend comment because I know how difficult it is to schedule leave.  Not everyone can have e.g. March Break off.  Not everyone can have 3 weeks in the summer.  The Air Force as an example does not do block leave therefore everyone is seeking the same periods off.  So if you work with me, I will be satisfied if I am able to grant you 2 weeks during the summer and again at Christmas, then somehow satisfying your desire/schedule by granting the remainder of your leave when you want it.  We will hit a road block is all you demand is 3 weeks or nothing as the unit may not be able to accommodate it. Worse yet, I ask you for a leave plan and all you do is fart around, therefore I eventually schedule your leave around everyone else's leave.  

All that said, I believe we are on the same page and I would be totally ticked if my unit told me to suck it up and take long weekends as my only way of enjoying my earned and deserved leave.

I appreciate the comment.


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## cuchullainn (27 Sep 2014)

Hi there I've got a few questions. Once you've finished basic training are you then a member of the Canadian Army if you passed? Do you get a uniform? Do you get time off before being sent for further training? If so how long? I'd like to go see my dad who lives in Ireland in my uniform as a surprise.


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## Ducimus BTC (27 Sep 2014)

Your a member of the CAF once you get sworn in. You are issued your uniform during BMQ. No one can tell you if you get time off after basic, it all depends on your trade and occupational training that is scheduled at that time. You are not permitted to wear your uniform off duty unless you are traveling to or from work. Not even going to get into wearing your uniform into a foreign country. 
Try using the search bar for these questions that have most likely already been answered.


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## cuchullainn (27 Sep 2014)

Okay thanks, sorry for posting a common question. I'll do a search next time. Might be a better idea to fly him in then for the graduation ceremony thing then.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2014)

Ducimus BTC said:
			
		

> You are not permitted to wear your uniform off duty unless you are traveling to or from work. Not even going to get into wearing your uniform into a foreign country.
> Try using the search bar for these questions that have most likely already been answered.



What you said is not accurate.  Try knowing what the fuck you are talking about before opening your cake hole.

To the OP.   If or when you go on leave to Ireland you will need to submit a leave pass.  THere is a spot on a leave pass that says "authorized to wear uniform".  You will tick that off and attach a memo requesting to wear your uniform, and why.   Your bosses will decide yes or no


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## TCM621 (27 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> What you said is not accurate.  Try knowing what the frig you are talking about before opening your cake hole.
> 
> To the OP.   If or when you go on leave to Ireland you will need to submit a leave pass.  THere is a spot on a leave pass that says "authorized to wear uniform".  You will tick that off and attach a memo requesting to wear your uniform, and why.   Your bosses will decide yes or no


This is correct. Also, taking your dress uniform with you and putting it on in your dad's house would be OK.  The part on your leave pass is normally for things like weddings where you would be wearing it in public.


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## Spimx (27 Sep 2014)

Thanks for that response eye in the sky  I want to sorprise my mother back home. Hopefuly I can travel to the Dominican republic during the winter brake form BMQ.. You always give us good news..


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## DAA (29 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> To the OP.   If or when you go on leave to Ireland you will need to submit a leave pass.  THere is a spot on a leave pass that says "authorized to wear uniform".  You will tick that off and attach a memo requesting to wear your uniform, and why.   Your bosses will decide yes or no



QR&O 17.04 para's (4) and (5) ---->  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-017-eng.asp#cha-017-04


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## cuchullainn (29 Sep 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> QR&O 17.04 para's (4) and (5) ---->  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-017-eng.asp#cha-017-04


Okay thanks. Much appreciated.


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