# a problem...wonder if i'm alone....



## Procrast (7 Mar 2007)

I have noticed that most people are unaware that we have a competent military...
 The context:  I am a college student and this one class i am taking is called "perpetual peace".
Now i may have some right winged tendences but the teacher and the supporting documents are incredibly biased  and anti-military... For example one of our books " how america gets away with murder" is 200+ pages on how NATO and the member countries are evil. This is ridiculous.... and my entire class doen't have an opinion on international affairs...they chose to just gob it all up and accept it... NOW to what irritated me... we were talking about Kosovo and Afghanistan and Canada's role in both conflicts. I found myself alone defending Canada against an angry class of 40...and when i asked them what they knew about our military all they could say is "we don't even have bows and arrows" :threat:.

 I am not in the military ( i plan on joining once my girlfriend cools down lol) and i definitely don't pretend to be an expert in the field. But i found it hurtfull that soo many people think so little of our armed forces...this was not the first time this has hapenned to me...

i was curious...did this ever happen to anyone else?


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## Devlin (7 Mar 2007)

Friendly advice don't wait for the girlfriend....two things you should never chase women and city buses you'll only get left behind..... ;D


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## Blindspot (7 Mar 2007)

Not overtly. I decided _not_ to take some of the more political gen ed courses for just such a reason. I had in the past noticed one editorial piece that was placed in a display. It was basically a diatribe on how General Hillier was a lap dog of the Americans and sending Canada's military toward more violent "American" pursuits.  : There is also the occasional poster tacked to a bulletin board denouncing Canada's imperialistic invasions of Haiti and Afghanistan. I haven't seen anything lately.

I'm in Seneca College in Toronto, by the way. Our campus is located on York University grounds and that's far more radical and political in atmosphere, which one should expect.


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## Procrast (7 Mar 2007)

Actualy the Author of "How america gets away with murder" is a professor of law at York U. He actualy attempted to prosecute the leaders of NATO in the Kosovo war.

and Devlin : yeah i know i might just do that lol


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## SupersonicMax (7 Mar 2007)

Blindspot said:
			
		

> I'm in Seneca College in Toronto, by the way. Our campus is located on York University grounds and that's far more radical and political in atmosphere, which one should expect.



Sorry for the OT here, but Seneca as in Aviation degree???  If so, did you have a Jazz or NASA interview yet???   ;D   :

Max


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## gaspasser (7 Mar 2007)

Procrast said:
			
		

> I found myself alone defending Canada against an angry class of 40...and when i asked them what they knew about our military all they could say is "we don't even have bows and arrows" :threat:.
> 
> I am not in the military ( i plan on joining once my girlfriend cools down lol) and i definitely don't pretend to be an expert in the field. But i found it hurtfull that soo many people think so little of our armed forces...this was not the first time this has hapenned to me...


  Thanks for backing us up even if you looked bad in class.  My advise too is to join up whenever you can.  If the girlfriend doesn't like it, then she would never support you wholeheartedly for what may come in the future in the military. I suggest you wait until after you finish college or join the reserves, that will give you a taste of things to come.
Cheers, BYTD


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## Remius (7 Mar 2007)

Nothing exactly like that but something similar.  First day, in a french class at Univ.  The teacher was French as in from France.  She basically told us she was there to educate us on proper french.  Not colonial french. Quite arrogant.  I let her know that if it wasn't for some of us "colonial" types that she'd probably be here teaching German.  I got kicked out and went straight to drop the course.  Don't know if you can still drop the course or not but if you can, stop wasting your time there.

Cheers.


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## Procrast (7 Mar 2007)

no i can't... i'm serious that class is some serious brainwashing... any and every mistake comitted during Kosovo and Afghanistan are repeated 4-5 times.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Mar 2007)

> I have noticed that most people are unaware that we have a competent military...




Mmmm, competent
I'm still waiting on my T4 and I haven't been paid in a month. Thats okay apparently 500 other guys had the same problem so atleast I'm not 'wondering if im alone' 



I'm not too sure what your asking here man. You took a university course called perpetual peace?  And your wondering why their anti-military??


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## Franko (8 Mar 2007)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> You took a university course called perpetual peace?



Wonder if the bongs had to be purchased separately or if it was included in tuition?

Regards


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## R.O.S (8 Mar 2007)

When it comes to Afghanistan I do understand some people are not for the conflict itself, but I find myself battling people who are in my classes hating the men and women that are fighting on the ground there. I mean for $&#@ sake, these men and women are risking their lives and all they say is crap like “baby killers” and “disgraceful citizens”. The Yugoslavian conflict I must agree I severely did not approve NATO for many reasons that I will not list at this moment. 

I am also taking a class involving peace studies (3 to be exact). I find the older people in the class are not as bad, but when you get a young person that just wants to protest... boy they are fun to deal with. The main arguments I find entertaining is the fact that whenever there is a left-wing terrorist group fighting, all the young classmates support them. All I do in class is bring them down to reality.

Example: There is a popular idea, or image, that the guerilla units in Colombia are freedom fighters who try to stop the US manipulated government from harming the poor and less fortunate. I take the example of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia–People's Army (FARC), which is the largest and oldest left wing guerilla group in Colombia. This is a group that has over 30% of its fighting force composed of children, under the age of 18. And while people may argue that their cause for a just society is righteous, one only look at the activities the group undertakes to fund itself. These activities include ransom abductions, extortion, massacres of opposing civilian communities and they are also well active in drug trafficking, something that has plagued the nation.

All I hear is how the military is pure evil and how Canada should set an example by eliminating our own military (really, this is discussed). I say, you enjoy your freedom?... thank a VET  !


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## Danjanou (8 Mar 2007)

Procrast said:
			
		

> i was curious...did this ever happen to anyone else?



You mean trying to defend yourself with logical arguments against some granola munching hypocritical smug self righteous academic shitpump and his equally naive circlejerk groupies? Yeah we get that a lot of that here. 

We've even started having self help meetings, do a serach under army.ca smokers. 8)

Seriously welcome to army.ca you will find some kindred spirits here. Not just in political views, but more so in a realistic adult outlooks on things. 

Those who take up the profession of arms by and large do not as the saying goes "suffer fools lightly," it comes with the job. Even in peacetime, which at present we as a nation are not at irregardless of what some in ivory towers may state, working with stuff that goes "boom" a lot means if you're not always on the ball, the fecal matter will hit the rotary air circulation device.

Plenty of threads devoted to why academia and the left feel the way they do re us, again feel free to do a search here. Basically in my opinion it comes down to one reason, they resent and fear us. Simple, in their rose coloured world they are the intellectuals and "we" are the poor misguided forelock tugging uneducated masses. However in reality they may have a few letters after their names but all that adds up to  is "latte Technician" on their CV.

Us poor schmucks though are anything but what but what they envision us to be. We have those highly technical skills in the profession of arms, but it does not end there. 

We also can think too. Check around, most troopies and not just those holding the Queens Commision have plenty of academic post nominals to add to the other alphabet we can stick on our business cards or place settings. I have dogearred copies of Shakespeare, Marx and Plato on my Bookshelf and can still lay a perfect linear ambush three decades after I learned how. There is a resentment, perhaps jealously (although never admitted) that we can function equally well in both their world and ours and they can't.


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## Procrast (8 Mar 2007)

Actually the course will be renamed "perpetual war"...and no i didn't have the choice...it was a preregistered class ( the only one)

The course itself can be interesting...as long as everyone can express their opinion...

but i think thats where the problem is.. that no one in that class has a opinion...so what ever the professor says becomes law.

For example : The teacher brings up  RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan ) said that NATO forces are killing civilians and not the Taliban... how am i suposed to argue with evidence?? bring in an Afghanistan vet?  :rage:


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## Danjanou (8 Mar 2007)

Procrast said:
			
		

> ... how am i suposed to argue with evidence?? bring in an Afghanistan vet?  :rage:



Yup.

Seriously, odds are you are not going to get these oxygen thieves to accept any ideas that do not support their own preconceptions. Even trying is just going to drive your blood pressure up. They've made up their minds on what are acceptable facts and who the bad guys are and as long as they remain isolated from reality nothing is going to change that.

The important factor here is what do you believe is happening over there, and why.


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## retiredgrunt45 (8 Mar 2007)

People like that live in glass houses, so they don't throw stones. They are the first ones to knock on your door when the $hit hits the fan asking what should I do, because as long as they're living in a world with all its amenities intact, everything is hunky dory, but as soon as something goes wrong they panic and have no idea what to do. These people are OK all long as there in their own Utopian environment, but put them somewhere were there's real hardship and they fold like a piece of paper.
So be happy in knowing your not one of these intellectual hicks, were a broken fingernail sends them into a panic attack. The strong always survive. Life skills, you can't learn from a book. It comes from getting out there in the real world, lifting your head out of the sand and going through the experience. The skills I was taught in the military are priceless and i don't only mean at the business end of a weapon, in general, self discipline, motivation, hardship, teamwork, improvising, taking care of each other and being able to take care of yourself in tough situations. Go away with the knowledge that they may be asking for your help some day.


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## Loachman (9 Mar 2007)

This is one reason why I do as many Remembrance Day Speaker Programme engagements as I can each year - I try to get our message across to the kids before they go to get their brains ruined.


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## The Generals Son (9 Mar 2007)

You're not alone when it comes to having to deal with classmates that are oblivious towards the CF.  However, I don't personally blame them...  Look at the culture and the environment most Canadians grow up in - It ain't that militarily orientated.  

For example, at 17 years of age; I didn't even know that my city had an armoury.  It was only until I saw a recruitment add ONLINE that I realized - goes to say a little I think.

I don't write often, but in all respects the last few posts really probed my nerves.  Reason, educated people should not be stereotyped as a bunch of losers that cannot function when SHTF - that's BS.  If 'intelects' are categorized in such a general context, then hell, 'army dudes' could be categorized as mindless drones who aren't able to function in society - And everyone knows, this is untrue.

I'll be the one to say, the army teaches me A LOT, and I respect that more than anything... HOWEVER, I also consider the views of others, especially my professors.  I may not like everything they've got to say - but that doesn't mean I'll shut my mind to their reasoning.  I think the more angles one can see a topic from, the better they will understand it.  

Oh an NEWSFLASH:  EDUCATION DOES NOT RUIN BRAINS!


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## Roy Harding (9 Mar 2007)

The Generals Son said:
			
		

> You're not alone when it comes to having to deal with classmates that are oblivious towards the CF.  However, I don't personally blame them...  Look at the culture and the environment most Canadians grow up in - It ain't that militarily orientated.
> 
> For example, at 17 years of age; I didn't even know that my city had an armoury.  It was only until I saw a recruitment add ONLINE that I realized - goes to say a little I think.
> 
> ...



An excellent post - and I agree, opposing points of view MUST be presented and considered for critical thinking to take place.

Having said that - you prove the point that only by ACCIDENT (coming across a recruitment add online) do our young folks even become aware that there IS an opposing point of view regarding the military.  They SURE don't get any exposure to the military supportive POV in School or University (I'm sure worthy exceptions exist), and when they RAISE that military supportive POV, they are ridiculed by those much more versed in the fine art of debate (with the exception of when a Professor engages a mature student with some life experience under his/her belt.)  This ridicule by someone who is SUPPOSED to be opening their minds to ALL knowledge, and enabling them to make their OWN decisions, is directly contrary to the process of teaching critical thought.

To sum up:  I agree with you - ALL knowledge is good, and ALL POVs should be considered.  But that's not what is happening in our Universities (for the most part).

Roy

Edit to add:  The above thoughts regarding what SHOULD be taught in University (critical thinking) does NOT apply to the Sciences and Applied Sciences - those are mostly trying to get FACTS into your head (at least at the undergrad level).


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## Jarnhamar (9 Mar 2007)

I can't see being forced to take that course. How stupid.

If you HAVE to take the dumb course all I can suggest is picking your battles. Spend the whole couse singing and praying with them, condeming soldiers, suggest that if we got rid of the army then we would achieve glorious world peace and on the last day when you pass the dumb course stand up laugh and announce that you joined the army and walk out.


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## Procrast (9 Mar 2007)

In my case with that class I do consider the opposing POV the problem is the other students don't consider anything but what the professor spits out...

For example : The teacher is passionate fighter of Humanitarian intervention and mixed motives for war.She believes war should only be used to save other peoples(her opinion =great,fine everyone is entitled to one) But when nations have second motives (economic mostly) she refuses to understand. (keep in mind she has a PHd in international politics). She believes in the case of Afganistan that since about 3000 people died on Sept 11th...killing more then 3000 taliban or terrorists doesn't not justify the war anymore...

i may be completly off but...i do not see the logic...

my 2...


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## Jarnhamar (9 Mar 2007)

> i do not see the logic...



Get used to it.

Picture yourself in a room of feminists and trying to argue why there should be an international man's day  to compliment international womans day.


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## Trooper Hale (9 Mar 2007)

Do what Dajanou said mate, advertise for a vet to come along with you. I can promise you that if you promise him or her a whole roomful of Granola munchers, you'll get a bunch of hands up from people who want to do some re-education. Just make sure if you do bring them into that class with you no throat punching goes on. Seriously though, look into it, i'm sure someone would live near and be willing to help out.


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## time expired (9 Mar 2007)

The first part of this post may appear to be a little off thread,but please bear with me and I will
make my point.In 1958 I was a young soldier in training in Kingston Ont.and every weekend I 
had a pass I would hitchhike to Windsor, an 800 mile round trip,to see a girl what else.In uniform
I would sometimes beat people who drove their own cars,hitchhiking was so easy people would
fall over themselves to help soldiers.Just over 10 years later I was again on course in Kingston
and decided to hitchhike to Windsor in uniform to visit my parents,the girl married someone else,while I
did not get spit on, a couple of times people ran off road and showered me with gravel,also cars 
stopped, waited until I got to the door and drove off leaving me standing in a cloud of dust.I gave 
up in Toronto and took the train the rest of the way getting to Windsor the next day.At the time I
was stationed in Germany and it came as a great shock to me that I got more respect and sympathy
there than in my own country.How could this happen?,one word,Vietnam,but there were no Canadian
troops in Vietnam I hear you say,it did not make any difference to the left wing students and their
brain dead supporters, they they just followed the lead of their equally idiotic peers down south.
      The leaders of this movement decided the establishment was rotten,the cops were pigs,and
the military were babykillers and part of a gigantic conspiracy to rob young people of their freedom
and the Canadian youth bought into this,they seem to have no ideas of their own,the media jumped
on the band waggon and people who knew better just shut up.This is the generation that most of
your professors came from and may explain some of their attitudes and opinions,but just as they were 
wrong then they are wrong now. However the fact that young people enter this site and ask the 
questions that are being asked gives me grounds for optimism.
                                              Regards


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## DONT_PANIC (9 Mar 2007)

I had a prof that was insisting in a Canadian history class that 1914-1918 was important because of the growth of the acceptable responsibilities of women, and the ensuing right for women to vote.  There might have been a war somewhere.  If there was, it certainly wasn't as important as women voting (not that I am saying universal sufferage isn't important).  Equally sad when not a single student bothered to ask about the war that may or may not have happened.


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## Flip (9 Mar 2007)

I'm a civilian, so feel free to disregard..... ;D

I was prompted to join this ARMY.ca by a raging argument with a member of
my wife's family.  My own sister belongs to the liberal arts - hate the establishment 
crowd mentioned above. Her boyfriend has son who is serving and
it has come up more than once that being in uniform in public is great in the UK
or the US, only in Canada is it disrespected.( as well as other arguments )

A uniform imparts a certain celebrity. In Canada it's like being the accordion player at a rock concert.

We are afflicted by a "peaceable kingdom" mythology.

Canadians simply don't realize that Canada has enemies.
We don't understand what "national interest" means.
And we don't get that national defence is not optional.

I have tried to see the other side - It just doesn't add up.
All I have seen is sentiment and feelings.

No one debates the virtue of law and order.
No one seriously questions the need for banks, the press, the government.
No one questions the need for education ( insert irony here ).

The military is the only national institution Canadians don't understand
or regard as fundamental to nationhood.  

Canada needs to grow up.

I think it's vital for thinking people to speak up - I understand serving members are constrained. If I get a chance I speak up, and anyone wants me to write something
like a letter to the editor, PM me.


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## ModlrMike (10 Mar 2007)

R.O.S said:
			
		

> All I hear is how the military is pure evil and how Canada should set an example by eliminating our own military (really, this is discussed). I say, you enjoy your freedom?... thank a VET  !



How ironic that the same folks who say we don't need a military because the Americans will protect us, are the first ones to complain that the Americans are evil. No country gives anything away for free, and one can only imagine the cost to Canada for America's protection.


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## Gayson (11 Mar 2007)

I took a course last year called War and Terrorism.

Myself and one other were pretty much the only non-hippies there.

Luckily, very very few of them ever figured out I was a member of the CF, might have been bad.

Luckily, the actual professor held a somewhat non-biased stance (She was obviously anti American  / anti Bush, but was still willing to listen to any view and argue against them using reason and logic, even admitted defeat a couple of times.)


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## Procrast (11 Mar 2007)

I'm happy to see I'm not the only one who noticed this kind of attitude...
I have the class tomorrow...more to come...


P


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## TangoTwoBravo (11 Mar 2007)

Procrast,

It can be tough to stand alone because of your views, especially in school if you are going against the professor.

With regards to the mission, the debate can focus on the "why" of the mission as well as the "how."

Canada is there as part of a coalition as a direct result of the 9/11 attacks.  While the terrorists on the airplanes were not "Afghans", they had trained there.  Al-Queda was intertwined with the Taliban regime.  Al-Queda and the Taliban arose after the US had been actively involved in supporting the Mujahadeen against the Soviets.

Coalition forces are in Afghanistan to support the legitimate, democratically-elected Government of Afghanistan (GoA).  Once the Taliban were out of power, the Bonn agreement instituted a Transitional Authority with President Karzai.  A series of Constitutional Loya Jirgas (with UN involvement) were convened that hammered out how power would be shared in Afghanistan (a constitution).  Democratic elections occured in 2004/2005.  Coalition forces are there to assist that democratically elected Government of Afghanistan while the GoA developed its own security forces.  Coalition forces give the GoA some breathing space to deal with the insurgency and other potential opponents.  To abandon them would be to plunge Afghanistan into an all-out civil war as was seen in the mid-90s.  The stage would be set for Al-Queda and the Taliban to come back.

As for the 'how', many critics are opposed to the 'offensive' operations undertaken.  Canada's strategy is the 3D approach of Defence, Diplomacy and Development.  The intent is to develop Afghanistan, but the Taliban actively counter development projects.  They behead teachers in front of the students and burn schools.  Sitting back in secure bases to the north will not defeat the insurgency or allow development in the south.  Coalition forces certainly kill Taliban forces.

Good luck with your class.  I doubt you'll sway the crowd or your teacher.


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## stealthylizard (9 Apr 2007)

I had pretty much the same experiences in high school, back in 1995-1996.  In my history 12 class, I was the only person in my graduating class that was a cadet for 5 years, member of the Reserves, and the only one considering making the military a career at that time.  My teacher, a relic from the days of "hippyism", continually tried to make it a point that military training was a form of brainwashing, as no ordinary, sane person would ever want to go through all the training, etc. especially with the ending goal being to kill people (well, the military ain't normal, and sane could be argued as well, but that isn't the point, lol  ).  She even knew that I was enlisted, and apologized to me afterwards, but was just "stating the truth".  I simply looked at her and replied, "You have just brainwashed every person in this class with your liberalistic views.  It is men like I, that have been "brainwashed", that have enabled you to publicly declare the views that you have done so today."  I had a few problems with the rest of the kids in the class, wanting to pick fights with me, just to claim they could beat up some one in the military, and wanting to say they are actually just weaklings, etc.  I owe it to the years of self discipline that I had not reacted with my fists, but instead with silence, and simply walking away from them.


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## TN2IC (9 Apr 2007)

Something like that happen in one of my classes. Some student beeking off. I bite my lips some hard. Then my buddy stood up, from Europe, and beat the"poop" out of the other guy. He said he was thankful for the Canadian troops in WW2. Crazy Euros...I was in shock/rooting for him.   Then told him afterwards to get a hair cut in his deep accent. ;D


Classic


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