# Widespread systemic racism in Canadian military ‘repulsing’ new recruits: report



## MilEME09 (25 Apr 2022)

New report released about racism is the CAF and DND. Coles notes, we aren't doing good









						Widespread systemic racism in Canadian military ‘repulsing’ new recruits: report  | Globalnews.ca
					

'Racism in Canada is not a glitch in the system; it is the system,' warned a new report about the 'toxic' systemic racism throughout the Canadian Armed Forces.




					globalnews.ca


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## daftandbarmy (25 Apr 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> New report released about racism is the CAF and DND. Coles notes, we aren't doing good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

Thinking on recent incidents that have originated from the bottom, the part that's systemic in Canada is going to be difficult for DND/CAF alone to address.


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## Navy_Pete (25 Apr 2022)

Not that it doesn't exist, but the researchers generally have an agenda when they ask questions ('how often do you beat your wife').

Will be interesting to see the actual report, vice the coles notes version kicked out by the MND (usually dumbed down to the point of being somewhat misleading).


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## Sprinting Thistle (25 Apr 2022)

I would be curious to see the data used to determine that people are not joining the military due to systemic racism.  I assume extensive polling?? And it would have to be people that have not applied to the military, as opposed to people who applied and were rejected.   Being closely associated with the education system right now, I can say that 17,18 and 19 year olds are not saying, "I'm not joining the military because its racist." Rather the majority of them are more concerned about what university or college program they are getting into or where can they get a job.  So who did the report drafters ask?  Just curious really.


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Apr 2022)

The report






						Minister of National Defence Advisory Panel on Systemic Racism and Discrimination – Final Report – January 2022 - Canada.ca
					

The Minister of National Defence Advisory Panel on Systemic Racism and Discrimination respectfully recognizes and acknowledges the relationship that the First Nations, Inuit and Métis across Canada have with the land all Canadians live on and enjoy.




					www.canada.ca


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## Navy_Pete (25 Apr 2022)

Huh, interesting read. Looks like the standard demographic review (with no real suggestions about how to improve recruiting diversity), and suggestions that we need to become 'more data driven' etc with more scorecards for recruiting centers etc.

The demographic one by rank is interesting, but it is a lagging indicator; people that are GOFOs and CWOs were recruited 30 years ago.

I'm all for improving things, but this seems like more of the same tickboxes in using GBA+ everywhere (even when it's not relevant) and the KPIs for recruiting centers etc. I imagine some of the suggestions will get more bang for the buck if implemented.  Kind of interesting to see that only 7.8% get an official exit interview on why they left, but maybe they are referring to people completing the optional questionnaire, as that seems really low. Similarly didn't see anything in a quick read through justifying how it's impacting recruiting at all, so that seems to be a rectal pluck.

The systemic racism wasn't something limited to the CAF, they are just basically saying that the general Canadian Government hisortical context includes systematic racism, so the entire GoC (including the CAF) has inherited it, not that the CAF is somehow intentionally perpetuating things as an institution.

Pretty dry report with some pretty 'no shit Sherlock' findings, but the spin is pretty biased to fill the narrative that the CAF is a collection of racist sex pests.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

Disappointing.  So much of it is this:
1. Historic injustices.
2. ?
3. Disparate outcomes; therefore, systemic causes in the present.

Can't fix problems without knowing the actual causes.


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## Quirky (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Disappointing.  So much of it is this:
> 1. Historic injustices.
> 2. ?
> 3. Disparate outcomes; therefore, systemic causes in the present.
> ...



They don't know the actual causes. It's easier to say that the military makes you a racist, a bigot and sexual predator while completely ignoring your childhood and how your parents raised you.


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## KevinB (25 Apr 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> The report
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*While there is increased awareness and understanding of the human rights of LGBTQ2+ individuals, including through a formal apology issued by Prime Minister Justine Trudeau on 28 November 2017, discrimination based on sexual orientation is still prevalent. In her 2015 report, former Supreme Court Justice Marie Deschamps found that the Canadian Armed Forces maintained a sexualized culture hostile to women and members of the LGBTQ2+ communities.*

Good for Justine  - serious if they can't get the PM's name right...

   Honest that report is awful, half of it deals with issues pre-Confederation and while it needs to be acknowledged in history, attempting to foist the sins of the father onto today Canadian society and the CAF is a little bit of a stretch.

_*Archives show that during the First World War, over 12,000 Indigenous Canadians volunteered to serve, and approximately 1,250 Black Canadians and 200 Japanese Canadians served as part of the Canadian Expeditionary Force; of those, 130 Japanese Canadians fought at Vimy Ridge. According to records of Canadians’ service during the Second World War, 600 Chinese Canadians volunteered,Footnote 86 as well as 17,000 Jewish Canadians.Footnote 87 It is impossible to know the number of brave LGBTQ2+ Canadian Armed Forces members who had to hide their identity to serve.
*_
*The historical account illustrates a pattern of racist and discriminatory practices in Canada that have become institutionalized in laws, regulations, policies and procedures, shaping Canadians’ world view of Indigenous, Black, racialized, LGBTQ2+ people, women and persons with disabilities. National Defence, which is approximately 127,800 people strong, is a microcosm of Canadian society. As such, inequities and discriminatory practices seen in wider Canadian society are also present within the Defence Team.*

Sigh

Recommendations​
*1.1 The Defence Team, in particular the CPCC, should continue the work of compiling recommendations from previous studies, inquiries and panels.*
*1.2 The CPCC should oversee the implementation of pertinent recommendations with the involvement of the Defence Advisory Groups (DAGs) and Network(s).*
*1.3 Progress in the implementation of recommendations should be tracked down to the unit level and collated by the CPCC.*
*1.4 The MND should be the endorsing authority for the rationale behind those recommendations that will not be implemented.*
Serious a Report that has a number 1 recommendation to study other reports?

I really don't understand how hard it is for the CAF/DND to to foster a ethical warrior ethos and deal with those that break it.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

Direct claims that the military "makes" people those things aren't in much evidence.  On firm ground are claims that the military has inadequately dealt with those kinds of people.  The processes and rules mostly already exist, but members have to apply them.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

> I really don't understand how hard it is for the CAF/DND to to foster a ethical warrior ethos and deal with those that break it.



Already has one:

*1. Respect the dignity of all persons
2. Serve Canada before self
3. Obey and support lawful authority*

Falling short on #1 is the root of most problems.  In the context of "know the standard, follow the standard, enforce the standard, teach the standard", I'd point to "follow" and "enforce" as lacking.


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Apr 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> The report
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoever wrote that, is well steeped in "Correctthought". 90% of it could be tossed with a only relevant bits being ratios of non-white males in higher positions, although white women seem to be doing well. The US army became the place to go where a black male could succeed to command positions, regardless of a rocky start. I bet that CF is likley still a better place than many organisations for visible minorities.


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## FSTO (25 Apr 2022)

This line lept out at me:

*"They miss out on the box-ticking requirements of a streamlined career progression: deployments, courses, exercises, training and other experiences."*

Isn't box ticking streamlining the foundation of many of our problems? But if we do it for folks who are not a white-cis-gendered-male it'll work out just fine?


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## rmc_wannabe (25 Apr 2022)

FSTO said:


> This line lept out at me:
> 
> *"They miss out on the box-ticking requirements of a streamlined career progression: deployments, courses, exercises, training and other experiences."*
> 
> Isn't box ticking streamlining the foundation of many of our problems? But if we do it for folks who are not a white-cis-gendered-male it'll work out just fine?


Credentialism has become the metric for success in the CAF, not actually being a competent and effective leader. This is something wrong with the system writ large, not just for diverse members of the CAF.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

It's difficult to simultaneously do two or more things that require most of your time, which is why God gave us phasing.  Phasing unfortunately takes more elapsed time.  People who don't phase their lives hit certain gates sooner.

One I found amusing:

*"11.2 Ensure that ALL CAF fathers take PATA leave.*

It is the Advisory Panel's opinion that the participation of men in childcare is a contributing factor to improving workplace gender equality. As such, it must be normalized, first artificially, then naturally."

"Artificially"?  Obviously one way to slow down the men is to force them to take time out, too.


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## rmc_wannabe (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> One I found amusing:
> 
> *"11.2 Ensure that ALL CAF fathers take PATA leave.*
> 
> ...


I... what? How the hell could they possibly enforce that? The only reason the CAF knows that our female members are having children is because they are their medical care providers.


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Apr 2022)

Another issue I see quite a bit with the Cadets, is that we are quickly becoming a immigrant society. Many of these people have given up a lot to come here and invest heavily in their kids both in time and money with expectations of them succeeding in high paying jobs. Many of them come from countries where the militaries are considered corrupt, sadistic, or a place for the lazy and incompetent. So if a kid join Cadets, enjoys it and comes home saying "I want to join the Army/Navy/Air Force they likely get a slap across the head and major talking to, such as: "WTF, do you think we gave up so much so you can waste your life in the military!!!!!!"
So even before you address this claimed issue in our military, you need to jump the perceived hurdles that exist in the minds of your potentiel recruiting pool.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

I don't know about "enforce", but a heckuva nudge is certainly possible. Eg:

"Additionally, the analysis showed that in Quebec, where a five-week paternity leave could not be transferred to the partner, men were more likely to take the five weeks of leave than were those in other provinces."

Obviously a use-it-or-lose-it partially funded leave will get some takers.


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## mariomike (25 Apr 2022)

The lecture we got on racism took about 30 seconds.



> You come to us from _a_ _society_ _with_ _many_ prejudices. We won't try to change your beliefs. But, if you treat _a_nyone _with_ disrespect, we will change your employment.



See also,









						Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
					

A good analysis. The debasing of language poses a huge problem; as one pundit put it, what happens were real Nazis to appear, what do we call them.     The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.




					army.ca
				



17 pages.


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## rmc_wannabe (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I don't know about "enforce", but a heckuva nudge is certainly possible. Eg:
> 
> "Additionally, the analysis showed that in Quebec, where a five-week paternity leave could not be transferred to the partner, men were more likely to take the five weeks of leave than were those in other provinces."
> 
> Obviously a use-it-or-lose-it partially funded leave will get some takers.


Fair, however, even if its a nudge, the only way to do so is after the member discloses to a CoC or HRA that their partner is pregnant and will be requiring Parental Leave. 

Some fathers... don't. Some don't want to. Its honestly a very personal decision. By stating they will enforce Parental Leave as a way to right wrongs in our employment model, it doesn't change the fact that they don't find out unless I tell them I procreated. Unless they want an Ammo Dec to the MO every Monday with rounds expended, I don't see this being something feasible without a lot of personal liberties being infringed upon.


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## btrudy (25 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Fair, however, even if its a nudge, the only way to do so is after the member discloses to a CoC or HRA that their partner is pregnant and will be requiring Parental Leave.
> 
> Some fathers... don't. Some don't want to. Its honestly a very personal decision. By stating they will enforce Parental Leave as a way to right wrongs in our employment model, it doesn't change the fact that they don't find out unless I tell them I procreated. Unless they want an Ammo Dec to the MO every Monday with rounds expended, I don't see this being something feasible without a lot of personal liberties being infringed upon.


Whether or not we have dependents, how many and who, is absolutely one of those things that the CAF requires us to keep them informed about. I don't find the notion that people would avoid mandatory leave by refusing to tell anyone they had a kid to be all that credible. At the very least, I would expect such behaviour to be _extremely_ uncommon.


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## Good2Golf (25 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Fair, however, even if its a nudge, the only way to do so is after the member discloses to a CoC or HRA that their partner is pregnant and will be requiring Parental Leave.
> 
> Some fathers... don't. Some don't want to. Its honestly a very personal decision. By stating they will enforce Parental Leave as a way to right wrongs in our employment model, it doesn't change the fact that they don't find out unless I tell them I procreated. Unless they want an Ammo Dec to the MO every Monday with rounds expended, I don't see this being something feasible without a lot of personal liberties being infringed upon.


Some might argue that the CAF would have been better off if we all had 5-months less of Gen Vance during his tenure… 😉


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## Navy_Pete (25 Apr 2022)

As an aside, as one of the cis-gendered white guys, find these kinds of reports with no real, concrete solutions frustrating. I'm absolutely certain that people are dealing with racism within the CAF, but I'm also certain they are dealing with racism in Canada generally. Neither is acceptable, but seems to me a lot more like we're a reflection of Canadian society as opposed to some kind of racist incubator. This report will stir up a lot of bad headlines, we'll take another public kicking, and nothing will actually change. Have enough challenges at work without being tarred and feathered so someone can score political points.

Doing some actual reflection on things like unconcious biases can be really hard (ie intense soul searching) but the CAF approach for that is usually just read a ppt and get a certificate. Have tried to do some things to 'be better' around some of these ingrained things, but didn't come about from a DLN course.

This seems a bit like yet another report with yet more recommendations that we will not implement, or just do some performative BS checkbox thing to show Something is Being Done. Probably some valid points for being more inclusive for civilians with disabilities, but that can all be really challenging to do properly as a supervisor, so unless there is real support from competent accessibility people it is a massive challenge to do.

Still have yet to see anyone figure out how to improve recruiting at all, let alone target different demographics for under-represented groups. I think having a CAF reflective of the Canadian population would be great, but when we are running with trades so depleted they went below critical levels (absurd levels?), navel gazing is less helpful than getting competent bodies in the door and also keeping people in uniform.

Unless we are actually asking people why they aren't joining, I really don't see how we can get ahead, but if the BGHs don't want to be honest and start delivering less capabilites (ie tieing up ships) I can only see retention continuing to plummet as we burn people out. It would almost have to result in a big demographic shift eventually, but expecting it to happen overnight is nuts.


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## SupersonicMax (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> One I found amusing:
> 
> *"11.2 Ensure that ALL CAF fathers take PATA leave.*
> 
> ...



Forcing people to do something like this never works well.  You have to incentivize it, sell it to people, like Quebec did with Paternity leave. Forcing it will create discontent. Some families elect that one member or the other takes all the leave because it makes financial sense, or that the other has other avenues of taking time off with the new family.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

Most of the recommendations are too vague (aspirational, rather than concrete).  Some are batsh!t crazy (most of the section on chaplaincy reform).  Much of the document loses focus and reads like a marital argument gone off the rails from whatever started it - one spouse reliving past injustices, wanting to pass the other under the harrow again (and again).  "Stop calling people names" is actionable.  "Pay attention to ME!" is ridiculous.


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## Humphrey Bogart (25 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> *While there is increased awareness and understanding of the human rights of LGBTQ2+ individuals, including through a formal apology issued by Prime Minister Justine Trudeau on 28 November 2017, discrimination based on sexual orientation is still prevalent. In her 2015 report, former Supreme Court Justice Marie Deschamps found that the Canadian Armed Forces maintained a sexualized culture hostile to women and members of the LGBTQ2+ communities.*
> 
> Good for Justine  - serious if they can't get the PM's name right...
> 
> ...


Just like everything else in this Government  Canadian Society, it's dog's breakfast ATM.

My plan is to insulate myself from anything to do with the Government/Public Office as much as humanly possible over the next few years.

Move to a nice rural area, away from the eyes and ears of our overlords and set myself up a nice pad with good fields of fire so I can tell anyone I don't like to politely frig off.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

A long while back, probably in a thread about sexual misconduct, I broached the idea that zealots would use the "crisis" to launch into attempts to "capture the institution".  I suppose this is their opening.


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## kratz (25 Apr 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Just like everything else in this Government  Canadian Society, it's dog's breakfast ATM.
> 
> My plan is to insulate myself from anything to do with the Government/Public Office as much as humanly possible over the next few years.
> 
> Move to a nice rural area, away from the eyes and ears of our overlords and set myself up a nice pad with good fields of fire so I can tell anyone I don't like to politely frig off.



No need to avoid Government, you are not the target audience. 

Many have already retreated into retirement, with your planned COA.


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## Humphrey Bogart (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> A long while back, probably in a thread about sexual misconduct, I broached the idea that zealots would use the "crisis" to launch into attempts to "capture the institution".  I suppose this is their opening.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Apr 2022)

As far as stupid reports goes this is right up there.



KevinB said:


> Recommendations​
> *1.1 The Defence Team, in particular the CPCC, should continue the work of compiling recommendations from previous studies, inquiries and panels.*
> *1.2 The CPCC should oversee the implementation of pertinent recommendations with the involvement of the Defence Advisory Groups (DAGs) and Network(s).*
> *1.3 Progress in the implementation of recommendations should be tracked down to the unit level and collated by the CPCC.*
> ...



I immediately thought the same thing. This took a year to smash together? Lets see the combined salaries of everyone involved in this and see what this cost tax payers.


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## Good2Golf (25 Apr 2022)

Go-go Oscar Goldman and the OSS!!! 😆


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

The first rule of Rice Bowl Club is to keep the rice bowl full.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Apr 2022)

This is painful to watch...

What dynamic and meaningful measures will we take to address this wide ranging issue? 

'Establish a working group.....' at about 15.20

Systemic racism in the Canadian Forces detailed in new report | FULL​Systemic racism is rampant throughout the Canadian Forces, “repulsing” new recruits and putting at risk the country’s national security if jobs continue to go unfilled, according to a bombshell report. Defence Minister Anita Anand released the highly-anticipated report Monday morning that takes the military to task for not doing enough to address racism in the ranks over the past two decades. In stark terms, the report probing racism in the Canadian military lays out the rationale for why fixing the “toxic” environment goes to the heart of the military’s ability to do the crucial jobs entrusted to it. As part of that, the report says military brass must accept that some members will either leave, or need to be removed. “Racism in Canada is not a glitch in the system; it is the system,” reads the report by the Minister of National Defence’s Advisory Panel on Systemic Racism and Discrimination. The report is the result of a yearlong review by a panel of retired Canadian Armed Forces members tasked with identifying ways to address hate, racism and discrimination in the ranks. For more info, please go to https://globalnews.ca/news/8784238/ca...


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## daftandbarmy (25 Apr 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> View attachment 70338



Thank you for reminding me why I hated Mess Meetings, which I will (thankfully) never, ever have to attend again


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## OldSolduer (25 Apr 2022)

I watched the news. Cherry picked who they’d interview or show. All sorts of indignation.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

> In stark terms, the report probing racism in the Canadian military lays out the rationale for why fixing the “toxic” environment goes to the heart of the military’s ability to do the crucial jobs entrusted to it.



That is stark rhetorical bullsh!t.  In stark terms, given the meagre size of our armed forces, the limited pool of willing recruits we have right now is enough and they have proven capable of doing everything Canada is willing to commit troops to do.  Cleaning up the house should be done because it's the right thing, not because failure is imminent.



> not doing enough



Raises the question of what "enough" is.  If people are analyzing the problem, have they an answer?  If they can't answer, who could be expected to?  (I mean concrete tasks, not more aspirations or plans to strike a committee to create an outline of a process to describe objectives for a working group to launch a six-month study.)


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## Ostrozac (25 Apr 2022)

The bit about removing certain Battle Honours didn’t specifically name the Northwest Rebellion - but it was pretty obvious that was what they were talking about. I’m not sure if any regiments celebrate Batoche or Fish Creek as their major anniversaries, but if so, a new calendar may have to go into those regimental catechisms.

And I suppose new colours and guidons will also be needed.


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## Weinie (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> That is stark rhetorical bullsh!t.  In stark terms, given the meagre size of our armed forces, the limited pool of willing recruits we have right now is enough and they have proven capable of doing everything Canada is willing to commit troops to do.  Cleaning up the house should be done because it's the right thing, not because failure is imminent.
> 
> 
> 
> Raises the question of what "enough" is.  If people are analyzing the problem, have they an answer?  If they can't answer, who could be expected to?  (I mean concrete tasks, not more aspirations or plans to strike a committee to create an outline of a process to describe objectives for a working group to launch a six-month study.)


I have watched this ebb and flow of support/disdain for too long. Glad I am done in 5 weeks.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

> The bit about removing certain Battle Honours didn’t specifically name the Northwest Rebellion - but it was pretty obvious that was what they were talking about. I’m not sure if any regiments celebrate Batoche or Fish Creek as their major anniversaries, but if so, a new calendar may have to go into those regimental catechisms.



Were those straight-up fights, or massacres of innocents?  If the former, there's no reason to remove the honours.  If we had regiments that perpetuated battles of the Seven Years War (anglo or franco), I wouldn't expect them to be removed, either.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> 'Establish a working group.....' at about 15.20


A working group AND an upcoming apology. Solid.


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## Good2Golf (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Were those straight-up fights, or massacres of innocents?  If the former, there's no reason to remove the honours.  If we had regiments that perpetuated battles of the Seven Years War (anglo or franco), I wouldn't expect them to be removed, either.


If it turns out they hadn’t conducted a GBA+ analysis before they attacked, the battle honours may be rescinded…


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## Infanteer (25 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Were those straight-up fights, or massacres of innocents?  If the former, there's no reason to remove the honours.  If we had regiments that perpetuated battles of the Seven Years War (anglo or franco), I wouldn't expect them to be removed, either.



Not sure why Fish Creek would be celebrated - Canadian Army walked into an ambush by an inferior Metis force.  Batoche was a three day battle where the Canadian Army bumbled into a prepared defensive position and then prevailed when the Metis finally ran out of ammo.


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## Brad Sallows (25 Apr 2022)

Shades of Rorke's Drift and VCs, then...


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## Weinie (25 Apr 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> The bit about removing certain Battle Honours didn’t specifically name the Northwest Rebellion - but it was pretty obvious that was what they were talking about. I’m not sure if any regiments celebrate Batoche or Fish Creek as their major anniversaries, but if so, a new calendar may have to go into those regimental catechisms.
> 
> And I suppose new colours and guidons will also be needed.


You cannot erase history, you can only deny it.


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## OldSolduer (25 Apr 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> The bit about removing certain Battle Honours didn’t specifically name the Northwest Rebellion - but it was pretty obvious that was what they were talking about. I’m not sure if any regiments celebrate Batoche or Fish Creek as their major anniversaries, but if so, a new calendar may have to go into those regimental catechisms.
> 
> And I suppose new colours and guidons will also be needed.


Fish Creek is celebrated by The Royal Winnipeg Rifles. So we want to rewrite history to satisfy everyone. Fuck that.


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## KevinB (25 Apr 2022)

And folks wonder why I went to become an American…

My lord Canada, what you have become without adults in the room to watch.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> And folks wonder why I went to become an American…
> 
> My lord Canada, what you have become without adults in the room to watch.


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## btrudy (25 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> You cannot erase history, you can only deny it.


You can stop celebrating things for which you should rightfully be ashamed. That's not denying history. Pretending like it didn't happen would be.


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## TacticalTea (26 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Were those straight-up fights, or massacres of innocents?  If the former, there's no reason to remove the honours.  If we had regiments that perpetuated battles of the Seven Years War (anglo or franco), I wouldn't expect them to be removed, either.


To your point... you'll find many streets called Wolfe AND Montcalm in Quebec. Both sides are commemorated.

And in the Navy, when we sing '_'To add something more to this wonderful year_!'' it is in reference to:
_''the Annus Mirabilis of 1759, during which British forces were victorious in several significant battles: the Battle of Minden on 1 August 1759; the Battle of Lagos on 19 August 1759; *the Battle of the Plains of Abraham (outside Quebec City) on 13 September 1759*.'' -_Wikipedia, _Heart of Oak._


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## TacticalTea (26 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Some are batsh!t crazy (most of the section on chaplaincy reform)


Hooooly shit! I thought you were exaggerating, but... No. Far from it.

_"For example, some churches' exclusion of women from their priesthoods violates principles of equality and social justice, as do sexist notions embedded in their religious dogmas. [...] These faiths’ dogmas and practices conflict with the commitment of the Defence Team to value equality and inclusivity at every level of the workplace.

If the Defence Team rejects gender discrimination, anti-Indigenous discrimination, and racialized discrimination in every other area and is working hard to remove systemic barriers to the employment of marginalized people, *it cannot justify hiring representatives of organizations* who marginalize certain people or categorically refuse them a position of leadership.

The Advisory Panel has observed that there are varying degrees of misogyny, sexism and discrimination woven into the philosophies and beliefs of some mainstream religions currently represented in the cadre of chaplains in the CAF. [...] Rather it is pointing out that *the Defence Team cannot consider itself supportive of inclusivity when it employs as chaplains members of organizations whose values are not consistent with National Defence’s ethics and values*—*even if those members express non-adherence to the policies of their chosen religion*. For example, it can be assumed that if a religion openly forbade a Black person to serve within its ranks, its members would be banned from the Chaplaincy in the CAF. The same scrutiny should be applied to those religions that forbid women to serve within their ranks or are against equal rights for same-sex couples."_

Who are these people? The authors of this report are utterly insane. Completely disconnected from reality. They are suggesting the majority of the population would not be allowed to have religious representation in the chaplaincy.


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## Kilted (26 Apr 2022)

First of all, I have to say that the CAF is the most diverse and a few issues aside, I would say legitimately tolerant organizations that I have ever been part of.  I honestly have trouble believing that there is any rampant issue with racism in the CAF. 

Considering our general recruitment issues, I don't think that we should care and potentially start turning people away based on their skin colour. 

Let other people have said, many immigrants are adverse to military service based on their experiences in their country of origin. This issue is not going to go away unless we start shifting our immigration allotments towards countries with positive views of their militaries. I've sure the NDP and liberals would love that.


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## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2022)

Yep.  To use their own principles, if they're fully committed "_to value equality and inclusivity at every level of the workplace_", then no-one who espouses the beliefs (ie. adheres to one of "those" religions) should be permitted on any level of the "defence team".

Chaplains exist to serve the spiritual needs of people who are of religions according to how they (religions and their adherents) define themselves, not to fill in by being sham placeholders who pick and choose from a menu of beliefs.  If anyone is left out, the solution is more chaplains.


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## Weinie (26 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> You can stop celebrating things for which* you should rightfully be ashamed.* That's not denying history. *Pretending like it didn't happen would be.*


I didn't see much pretending that it didn't happen in the report, as it stands, they took great pains to point out any flaws, no matter how far fetched. And I am ashamed of nothing during my almost forty years in the CAF.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

Isn't the official line of chaplaincy pretty  big on the agnostic side of spirituality? Every chaplain I have interacted with seemed pretty happy to just talk, help find solutions and resources, and escalate further if it was out of their expertise.

There have been systemic abuses in the ChurchTM for centuries, however, the RCChS I would say is more akin to guidance counselors than anything else.


----------



## Remius (26 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> You can stop celebrating things for which you should rightfully be ashamed. That's not denying history. Pretending like it didn't happen would be.


Who is pretending things didn’t happen in that context? 

So a few things to consider.  There is a difference between “celebrating” and “commemorating”.  Many units commemorate various actions during the north west rebellion as it was the first time those units went into battle.  They also commemorate some of those actions including the losses as it would have been the first time that members of those units were killed.  

Removing the NWR battle Honour won’t change any of that.  

Also people on both sides of really need history lessons.  Real ones before they open their traps.


----------



## Furniture (26 Apr 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Hooooly shit! I thought you were exaggerating, but... No. Far from it.
> 
> _"For example, some churches' exclusion of women from their priesthoods violates principles of equality and social justice, as do sexist notions embedded in their religious dogmas. [...] These faiths’ dogmas and practices conflict with the commitment of the Defence Team to value equality and inclusivity at every level of the workplace.
> 
> ...


Interestingly, in the anti-Asian Racism section they talk about Islamophobia, and in the Chaplaincy section they essentially demand the CAF not have Islamic, Catholic, or several Protestant denominations' Chaplains.... 

I wonder how the government will reconcile those two recommendations when they move forward.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

Furniture said:


> Interestingly, in the anti-Asian Racism section they talk about Islamophobia, and in the Chaplaincy section they essentially demand the CAF not have Islamic, Catholic, or several Protestant denominations' Chaplains....
> 
> I wonder how the government will reconcile those two recommendations when they move forward.


The entire recommendation section is full of cognitive dissonance. It reads like the minutes from a Jr. Ranks Mess Meeting: 

"We want jalapeño poppers on TGIT! We also don't want to pay for them. We also don't want to have our mess dues raised. Also, we don't want to be forced to pay mess dues. Also, we shouldn't have messes anymore."


----------



## dimsum (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> The entire recommendation section is full of cognitive dissonance. It reads like the minutes from a Jr. Ranks Mess Meeting:
> 
> "We want jalapeño poppers on TGIT! We also don't want to pay for them. We also don't want to have our mess dues raised. Also, we don't want to be forced to pay mess dues. Also, we shouldn't have messes anymore."


Frankly, aside from the poppers, that could be any mess meeting.


----------



## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

Furniture said:


> Interestingly, in the anti-Asian Racism section they talk about Islamophobia, and in the Chaplaincy section they essentially demand the CAF not have Islamic, Catholic, or several Protestant denominations' Chaplains....
> 
> I wonder how the government will reconcile those two recommendations when they move forward.


They won’t. This report will sit on the shelf like all the other ones and will be used from time to to time to beat the CAF over the head when politically convenient.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

Based on the results of this (2014) survey we have no hope of achieving any of the targets set for the CAF..... same goes for alot of jobs in the Natural Resources sector (Forestry, Mining, Agriculture etc) I would say:

PTSD and danger among deterrents to visible minorities joining military​Report for National Defence looks at why Canadian Forces can't meet diversity hiring targets​
Among the key findings:


Many youth wanted to pursue careers in health care, entrepreneurship or business.
Drawbacks include danger, following orders you disagree with and being away from home.
The impression that the military is for people with no other options and is not prestigious is greater than in the general public.
A civilian university education is seen as a more direct pathway to success.
Familiarity with CAF is low compared to the general public and participants in the target groups are less likely to know a current or former Forces member.
A strong sense by parents and communities that it's an unsafe occupation.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ptsd-and-danger-among-deterrents-to-visible-minorities-joining-military-1.2849647


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Many youth wanted to pursue careers in health care, entrepreneurship or business.
> Drawbacks include danger, following orders you disagree with and being away from home.
> The impression that the military is for people with no other options and is not prestigious is greater than in the general public.
> A civilian university education is seen as a more direct pathway to success.
> ...


Seems as though a lot of these *Cultural *differences are not due to the CAF being unwelcoming to diverse candidates, but more being undesirable to the target demographics. 

I'm a First Gen Canadian that grew up in Toronto. I was part of the Cadet program in high-school and we had a large diversity of cadets from every culture in our ranks. Parents were supportive because it was an free extracurricular that helped pad the university application. The second the conversation changed to joining the CAF, "oh dear no. We want so much more for our child than..._that_"

In my case, I told my father (who was against me joining the CAF from Day One) that he could either sign my application and give me a shot at a Summer BMQ, or I would just wait for my 18th birthday and do it behind his back, He relented and signed the form; and has since ate crow by saying it was the best life decision I have ever made. 

Until we do a better job at selling the product and making it more socially acceptable to serve, we will face this hostility at every turn. Its not an internal cultural issue we need to solve as much as we need to present an option that will sway these cultural biases within New Canadian/First Gen Canadian populations.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Seems as though a lot of these *Cultural *differences are not due to the CAF being unwelcoming to diverse candidates, but more being undesirable to the target demographics.
> 
> I'm a First Gen Canadian that grew up in Toronto. I was part of the Cadet program in high-school and we had a large diversity of cadets from every culture in our ranks. Parents were supportive because it was an free extracurricular that helped pad the university application. The second the conversation changed to joining the CAF, "oh dear no. We want so much more for our child than..._that_"
> 
> ...



Similar 'image' issues impact forest sector recruitment and diversity:


2.3 The Image Factor 

Presently, rapid changes in demographics and technology for the business sector have made recruiting a critical element in attracting and retaining the qualified workers that are necessary to secure a knowledgeable and competent workforce (4). Unfortunately, the image of the forest industry has had a negative impact on the success of recruiting qualified workers. During the last few years, the forest industry has been experiencing one of its worst economic periods, which continues to persist. This has generated negative press, thus creating a less than favorable image of the industry. There are many misconceptions about forestry, the most common ones are the following (5):
• Forestry related job prospects are poor
• Forestry is only about logging
• Forestry is “low tech”
• The brightest students do not take forestry
• All forestry jobs are rural jobs
• Forestry is a sunset industry
• The forest industry is a poor environmental performer

These factors likely discourage young people from considering the forest sector for career opportunities.



			https://www.gnb.ca/cpse-ceps/EN/docs/NB%20Forest%20Industry%20Training.pdf


----------



## KevinB (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Seems as though a lot of these *Cultural *differences are not due to the CAF being unwelcoming to diverse candidates, but more being undesirable to the target demographics.
> 
> I'm a First Gen Canadian that grew up in Toronto. I was part of the Cadet program in high-school and we had a large diversity of cadets from every culture in our ranks. Parents were supportive because it was an free extracurricular that helped pad the university application. The second the conversation changed to joining the CAF, "oh dear no. We want so much more for our child than..._that_"
> 
> ...


It isn't even a First or New Generation issue.
  My parents didn't want me to join the Reg force - doubly so as an enlisted swine (my father had been a RCAF Res Officer through University and Law School), my Grandfather (dad's side) had been an Infantry Officer, and later a Prosecutor during the Japanese War Crime Trials after WWII.


----------



## Remius (26 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> It isn't even a First or New Generation issue.
> My parents didn't want me to join the Reg force - doubly so as an enlisted swine (my father had been a RCAF Res Officer through University and Law School), my Grandfather (dad's side) had been an Infantry Officer, and later a Prosecutor during the Japanese War Crime Trials after WWII.


Strangely my parents were very supportive.  My father’s few regrets was that he never served in uniform.  His father and grandfather had during both world wars so the prospect of one his sons serving in some capacity was more than fine.


----------



## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Until we do a better job at selling the product and making it more socially acceptable to serve, we will face this hostility at every turn. Its not an internal cultural issue we need to solve as much as we need to present an option that will sway these cultural biases within New Canadian/First Gen Canadian populations.



I can just hear the folks who critique the CAF say "So you're saying its the immigrants fault that they are not joining the CAF in great numbers? How racist of you!"


----------



## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> Strangely my parents were very supportive.  My father’s few regrets was that he never served in uniform.  His father and grandfather had during both world wars so the prospect of one his sons serving in some capacity was more than fine.


My dad passed away when I was young and mom didn't even know that I was thinking of joining until I told here I was heading to Winnipeg for my entrance physical. It also helped that I was a somewhat grown-ass man (26) at the time!


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

FSTO said:


> I can just hear the folks who critique the CAF say "So you're saying its the immigrants fault that they are not joining the CAF in great numbers? How racist of you!"


Having spent a lot of my formative years amongst these immigrant cultures; they're probably more racist than your average, "Old Stock" Canadian. They just don't have the systemic ability to let it affect Canadian societies and institutions. 
I had to break up a fight once in the canteen at my cadet unit between a Trini cadet and a Guyanese cadet because of prejudices brought over from the Old Country. SE/SW Asian communities are even worse for this.


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Apr 2022)

Furniture said:


> Interestingly, in the anti-Asian Racism section they talk about Islamophobia, and in the Chaplaincy section they essentially demand the CAF not have Islamic, Catholic, or several Protestant denominations' Chaplains....
> 
> I wonder how the government will reconcile those two recommendations when they move forward.


That's exactly what I had in mind and waited for someone else to reply with that to make sure I wasn't drinking crazy juice! Thank you!

It's so insanely contorted and contradictory I can't believe it was actually published.


----------



## Kilted (26 Apr 2022)

Furniture said:


> Interestingly, in the anti-Asian Racism section they talk about Islamophobia, and in the Chaplaincy section they essentially demand the CAF not have Islamic, Catholic, or several Protestant denominations' Chaplains....
> 
> I wonder how the government will reconcile those two recommendations when they move forward.


How long before they start demanding that that members of those religions not be allowed to serve in the military, or any government job. The second the government starts making a list of religions that they consider appropriate and the ones that they don't, freedom of religion goes out the window. Chaplains, like any other member of the CAF are asked in their interview process if they have any issues working with other religions, races, etc. They are capable of providing needed help to anyone of any background regardless of religious beliefs, perhaps with the exception of not being forced to conduct same-sex marriages, but that is standard for Canada.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (26 Apr 2022)

I found it very interesting during the press conference that they stated that there is 7 advisory bodies on these various issues.  How many PYs are dedicated to these bodies?  And the subsequent or associated positions?  They of course need staff to draft their corespondance and research issues, etc.  Then there are the positions dedicated to producing the appropriate educational material, on line training packages, etc for dissemination to the masses for annual mandated training.  Then of course some staff needs to produce, disseminate, collect and collate the metrics associated with these issues.  I can see the stand up of a new Command coming for all of these issues.


----------



## Grimey (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Until we do a better job at selling the product and making it more socially acceptable to serve, we will face this hostility at every turn. Its not an internal cultural issue we need to solve as much as we need to present an option that will sway these cultural biases within New Canadian/First Gen Canadian populations.


I'm not sure what else we could do to "sell" the CAF to target demographics that already hasn't been tried.  In 2011-2012 I was responsible for 125 baby Marine Engineering Mechanics over the course of a year in Esquimalt.  This was at a time when the CAF was front and center in the public eye due to the various sand box ops on land and at sea, and arguably at a time that had the greatest public good will/prestige over the last 50 years.  Out of the 125, we had ten who could be considered the "target", including women.  The balance were the usual applicant:  Prairie boys, newfies sick of fishing or the gas patch and suburban Ontario kids.  

If you can't get "target demographic" applicants when the organization is actively engaged in it's core business and when public support/recognition is at it's post-WW2 peak (granted, likely mile wide/inch deep), the difficulties of achieving the same in today's climate of bureaucratic sclerosis and GOFO sexcapades.........  Well, I don't envy the recruiters.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

Grimey said:


> I'm not sure what else we could do to "sell" the CAF to target demographics that already hasn't been tried.  In 2011-2012 I was responsible for 125 baby Marine Engineering Mechanics over the course of a year in Esquimalt.  This was at a time when the CAF was front and center in the public eye due to the various sand box ops on land and at sea, and arguably at a time that had the greatest public good will/prestige over the last 50 years.  Out of the 125, we had ten who could be considered the "target", including women.  The balance were the usual applicant:  Prairie boys, newfies sick of fishing or the gas patch and suburban Ontario kids.
> 
> If you can't get "target demographic" applicants when the organization is actively engaged in it's core business and when public support/recognition is at it's post-WW2 peak (granted, likely mile wide/inch deep), the difficulties of achieving the same in today's climate of bureaucratic sclerosis and GOFO sexcapades.........  Well, I don't envy the recruiters.


We had a lot of issues even during Afghan. BGen Menard comes to mind, The Afghan Detainee issues, and ofcourse all the other small fires that collectively burned us as an organization.

Good press from operations isn't necessarily the cure to all our ills. Cleaning up our act and having that become the good press we need is optimal.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

Grimey said:


> I'm not sure what else we could do to "sell" the CAF to target demographics that already hasn't been tried.  In 2011-2012 I was responsible for 125 baby Marine Engineering Mechanics over the course of a year in Esquimalt.  This was at a time when the CAF was front and center in the public eye due to the various sand box ops on land and at sea, and arguably at a time that had the greatest public good will/prestige over the last 50 years.  Out of the 125, we had ten who could be considered the "target", including women.  The balance were the usual applicant:  Prairie boys, newfies sick of fishing or the gas patch and suburban Ontario kids.
> 
> If you can't get "target demographic" applicants when the organization is actively engaged in it's core business and when public support/recognition is at it's post-WW2 peak (granted, likely mile wide/inch deep), the difficulties of achieving the same in today's climate of bureaucratic sclerosis and GOFO sexcapades.........  Well, I don't envy the recruiters.



I was having a discussion yesterday about this topic with a fairly senior (white guy) person. 

My comments about our lack of integration with the civilian world, resulting in them ignoring us, called for an example. 

My response was along the lines of "I served as an Officer in the Reserves for over 30 years and can count on one hand the number of times we invited civilian 'decision makers' in for any kind of interaction, social or otherwise. Most annual dinners usually had a 'guest of honour' who was either a military buddy of the CO, or a senior CAF General he was trying to suck up to (and whose ticket our Mess paid for) so he could get promoted faster. We never invited Mayors, MPs, MLAs, senior business people, or anyone who was not military in some way, to the dinners. We never engaged with the public apart from marching past them on Remembrance Day, even when our main focus was supposed to be 'Connecting with Canadians'. Very few of our Officers had real civilian careers, being mostly people who relied on the CAF for their income in some manner, or retired Reg F types."

Writ large, we seem to be an alien intrusion upon the daily life of most Canadians, so we shouldn't be too surprised when we get trounced in public from time to time or just ignored.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I was having a discussion yesterday about this topic with a fairly senior (white guy) person.
> 
> My comments about our lack of integration with the civilian world, resulting in them ignoring us, called for an example.
> 
> ...


This. I cannot count how many mess dinners, Change of HCols, and "Community Events" that are almost incestuous in nature, due to it being a bunch of people already with ties to the CAF participating.

I made a suggestion once that appointing the Dean of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Queen's University as our HCol would be such a boon to my unit, as we would be able to leverage that relationship for mutual benefit.

Instead, we appoint a former CO who just retired as a BGen / DG Pointless Endeavors who still wants to play army. 

We do it to ourselves.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2022)

There are people deeply committed to finding fault and exposing it.  The organization will never be zero-fault; if some measure were reduced to zero, agitators would move the goalposts.  Thus, bad press is unavoidable.  Overwrought bad press in the service of agendas is unavoidable.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2022)

> We never invited Mayors, MPs, MLAs, senior business people, or anyone who was not military in some way, to the dinners.



Probably a good idea until sometime takes a very stiff broom through the Res F and ejects all the people whose character flaws shouldn't be exposed to people outside the military.  We should want the impression to be a good one.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I was having a discussion yesterday about this topic with a fairly senior (white guy) person.
> 
> My comments about our lack of integration with the civilian world, resulting in them ignoring us, called for an example.
> 
> ...


Maybe CFLA’s ‘EXECUTREC’ program didn’t focus out West.  On numerous times, I flew groups of business executive from Toronto to various bases for capability/firepower demonstrations that included meet and greet periods that in some cases, had some of the executives’ companies’ own employees serving as Reservists, speak to them about the various capabilities.

If that’s not happening now, I’d cynically think it’s because the Government doesn’t want it to happen.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Maybe CFLA’s ‘EXECUTREC’ program didn’t focus out West.  On numerous times, I flew groups of business executive from Toronto to various bases for capability/firepower demonstrations that included meet and greet periods that in some cases, had some of the executives’ companies’ own employees serving as Reservists, speak to them about the various capabilities.
> 
> If that’s not happening now, I’d cynically think it’s because the Government doesn’t want it to happen.



The Navy was doing some of that stuff, before COVID of course, but it was never very strategic. 

More like the odd, sporadic, 'does anyone want to go?' kind of thing as opposed to being a component part of a corporate marketing strategy of some kind.

In contrast if you look at an organization like Vancity - a bank - they have always done a fantastic job at community outreach and integration to the point where their staff accurately reflect the clients they service: Careers


----------



## Colin Parkinson (26 Apr 2022)

Grimey said:


> I'm not sure what else we could do to "sell" the CAF to target demographics that already hasn't been tried.  In 2011-2012 I was responsible for 125 baby Marine Engineering Mechanics over the course of a year in Esquimalt.  This was at a time when the CAF was front and center in the public eye due to the various sand box ops on land and at sea, and arguably at a time that had the greatest public good will/prestige over the last 50 years.  Out of the 125, we had ten who could be considered the "target", including women.  The balance were the usual applicant:  Prairie boys, newfies sick of fishing or the gas patch and suburban Ontario kids.
> 
> If you can't get "target demographic" applicants when the organization is actively engaged in it's core business and when public support/recognition is at it's post-WW2 peak (granted, likely mile wide/inch deep), the difficulties of achieving the same in today's climate of bureaucratic sclerosis and GOFO sexcapades.........  Well, I don't envy the recruiters.


Jordan Peterson touched on the issue


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2022)

Obviously septic tank pumping companies don't do enough community outreach, otherwise they should have many more women operating the equipment.


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## Good2Golf (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> In contrast if you look at an organization like Vancity - a bank - they have always done a fantastic job at community outreach and integration to the point where their staff accurately reflect the clients they service:


…from their own figures, I’d say “working towards” vice ‘accurately reflect.’  Positive, but what’s the final state aim point?  Most recent long census numbers?

Becoming an inclusive and anti-racist organization


> As part of our commitment to represent the communities we serve, we’ve set a goal to have 2.5% of Vancity’s workforce that are from Indigenous communities. In 2020, 78.2% of Vancity employees participated in our optional yearly diversity survey. Among those who participated, 37.2% identify as a member of a visible minority and 1.4% identify as an Indigenous person. We’re actively working with community partners to support recruitment efforts to meet our employee diversity goal.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …from their own figures, I’d say “working towards” vice ‘accurately reflect.’  Positive, but what’s the final state aim point?  Most recent long census numbers?
> 
> Becoming an inclusive and anti-racist organization



We've done alot of work with Vancity staff and I would say that, even though they're still 'working towards' some things, they're still about a million times more reflective of the community they serve than is the CAF right now.


----------



## Grimey (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Writ large, we seem to be an alien intrusion upon the daily life of most Canadians, so we shouldn't be too surprised when we get trounced in public from time to time or just ignored.


And yet, how much of this is an "own goal" and how much is due to having a miniscule population distributed on the southern edge of a huge land mass.  As to the latter, do the Australians have similar issues?


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

Grimey said:


> And yet, how much of this is an "own goal" and how much is due to having a miniscule population distributed on the southern edge of a huge land mass.  As to the latter, do the Australians have similar issues?



We have had dozens of units, and thousands of troops, based in all our communities - large and small - for centuries. And yet few seem to know anything about us...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Based on the results of this (2014) survey we have no hope of achieving any of the targets set for the CAF..... same goes for alot of jobs in the Natural Resources sector (Forestry, Mining, Agriculture etc) I would say:
> 
> PTSD and danger among deterrents to visible minorities joining military​Report for National Defence looks at why Canadian Forces can't meet diversity hiring targets​
> Among the key findings:
> ...


This is fantastic news and evidently means more work for me in the coming years!

My pitch: "Will work in most crappy of physical and environmental conditions for the chance at upward mobility, large paycheque and the occasional adrenaline rush!"

I never listened to my parents for more than a passing second anyways.  😁


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Apr 2022)

A few years ago the Mayor of Winnipeg stated maybe it was time for the Royal Winnipeg Rifles statue to be moved to a less visible location. He only mentioned it once. And the statue is still there.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> This. I cannot count how many mess dinners, Change of HCols, and "Community Events" that are almost incestuous in nature, due to it being a bunch of people already with ties to the CAF participating.
> 
> I made a suggestion once that appointing the Dean of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Queen's University as our HCol would be such a boon to my unit, as we would be able to leverage that relationship for mutual benefit.
> 
> ...


When I retired our HCol was a female Phd holder with the U of M. Our Hon LCol was a gentlemen from Egypt who owned a flourishing garment business. 

Even crayon eaters can be diverse so there is no excuse for anyone else.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> We've done alot of work with Vancity staff and I would say that, even though they're still 'working towards' some things, they're still about a million times more reflective of the community they serve than is the CAF right now.


No doubt, but Vancity also doesn’t have an extraprovincial, extranational roll.  Honest question…how should the CAF’s demographics be targeted to ensure it meets its mission while evolving to the proper demographic?  Again, I will ask what is the demographic composition that the CAF should be working to attain?  Nowhere does the Government actually quantify the desired demographic distribution.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> No doubt, but Vancity also doesn’t have an extraprovincial, extranational roll.  Honest question…how should the CAF’s demographics be targeted to ensure it meets its mission while evolving to the proper demographic?  Again, I will ask what is the demographic composition that the CAF should be working to attain?  Nowhere does the Government actually quantify the desired demographic distribution.


The desired demographic I believe is the best candidate for the job.  No serial killers please.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> When I retired our HCol was a female Phd holder with the U of M. Our Hon LCol was a gentlemen from Egypt who owned a flourishing garment business.
> 
> Even crayon eaters can be diverse so there is no excuse for anyone else.


Agreed. As much as people like to state we are against the self licking ice cream cone... we seem to be fully invested in it.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> The desired demographic I believe is the best candidate for the job.  No serial killers please.


That’s a qualitative description, OS…we’re looking for a quantitative aim point for the breakdown.  The Government’s position is that any member of the demographic can be acceptable, they just have to be identified and attracted to the CAF.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2022)

> Nowhere does the Government actually quantify the desired demographic distribution.



That would give the game away.


----------



## Kilted (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> A few years ago the Mayor of Winnipeg stated maybe it was time for the Royal Winnipeg Rifles statue to be moved to a less visible location. He only mentioned it once. And the statue is still there.


It's fortunate that only one level of government has the ability to mistreat us.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> That's exactly what I had in mind and waited for someone else to reply with that to make sure I wasn't drinking crazy juice! Thank you!
> 
> It's so insanely contorted and contradictory I can't believe it was actually published.



Never happen.  The French will ensure that for Catholicism.  As long as Quebec holds as many seats in parliament. 

I have spoken to a few people who don't wish to swear allegiance to the Queen.  And that keeps them from enrolling.  Admittedly it may be a microcosm of my circle lol


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I have spoken to a few people who don't wish to swear allegiance to the Queen.  And that keeps them from enrolling.  Admittedly it may be a microcosm of my circle lol


Hanging around a bunch of Fenians then?


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Hanging around a bunch of Fenians then?



Lol must be.


----------



## KevinB (26 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I have spoken to a few people who don't wish to swear allegiance to the Queen.  And that keeps them from enrolling.  Admittedly it may be a microcosm of my circle lol


That is quite frankly insane - as the Queen is still the titular Head of State for Canada - and the head of the monarchy.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> That is quite frankly insane - as the Queen is still the titular Head of State for Canada - and the head of the monarchy.



Yup no one is debating that.  

The fact that support for the monarchy continues to fall.  And with a changing demographics it's a ball and chain were going to have to deal with, eventually.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> That is quite frankly insane - as the Queen is still the titular Head of State for Canada - and the head of the monarchy.


Its my opinion we should swear allegiance to the nation and not a head of state.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> Serious a Report that has a number 1 recommendation to study other reports?


You've never sent a "Per my earlier message (attached for your convenience)..." email?


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## KevinB (26 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> You've never sent a "Per my earlier message (attached for your convenience)..." email?


Most of mine go like "Hey Dumbass I already sent you this shit, why am I still needing to remind you..."


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## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Its my opinion we should swear allegiance to the nation and not a head of state.



Yes please.


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## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Its my opinion we should swear allegiance to the nation and not a head of state.


I see your point but I view that the crown (and not the person who wears it, the body of christ and all that stuff) embodies the country and maybe avoids somewhat the little nasty part that our first nation's brethren are raising more and more frequently, "This chunk of land that the settlers call Canada"


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## Remius (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Its my opinion we should swear allegiance to the nation and not a head of state.


Except you do.


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## dangerboy (26 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> Except you do.


Not really if you look at our Oath it is to the Queen, granted as Queen of Canda

6.04- OATH TAKEN ON ENROLMENT​(1) An officer or non-commissioned member who is a Canadian citizen or a British subject shall, on enrolment, take the following oath or solemn affirmation:


> "I ......... (full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."


The words "So help me God" shall be omitted if a solemn affirmation is taken.
(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who is not a Canadian citizen or a British subject shall, on enrolment, take the following oath or solemn affirmation:


> "I ......... (full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will well and truly serve Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law, in the Canadian Forces until lawfully released, that I will resist Her Majesty's enemies and cause Her Majesty's peace to be kept and maintained and that I will, in all matters pertaining to my service, faithfully discharge my duty. So help me God."


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## KevinB (26 Apr 2022)

Maybe plagiarize ours...
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


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## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> Except you do.



(full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."


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## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> Maybe plagiarize ours...
> "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."



I like that.


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## Remius (26 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> (full name), do swear (or for a solemn affirmation, "solemnly affirm") that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her heirs and successors according to law. So help me God."


Once you understand what the Queen of Canada embodies and personifies you understand that you actually pledge allegiance to the nation.  We don’t properly teach civics in this country.


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## Underway (26 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> Maybe plagiarize ours...
> "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


That's the Oath of Alligence.  The Enlistment Oath is different.

Enlistment Oath.—Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:



> “I, ____________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”



It's an important distinction that the US military swears on the _constitution_ not a person. It's the final US guarantee after the separation of Congress, Senate, Court, President, that democracy will not be turned into tyranny/dictatorship.  It basically empowers the US military to enforce the Constitutional process.


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## KevinB (26 Apr 2022)

Underway said:


> That's the Oath of Alligence.  The Enlistment Oath is different.
> 
> Enlistment Oath.—Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:


All commissioned LE Officers need to do that to.




Underway said:


> It's an important distinction that the US military swears on the _constitution_ not a person. It's the final US guarantee after the separation of Congress, Senate, Court, President, that democracy will not be turned into tyranny/dictatorship.  It basically empowers the US military to enforce the Constitutional process.


Well we did have some history with tyrannical governments to guide us


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## lenaitch (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> We have had dozens of units, and thousands of troops, based in all our communities - large and small - for centuries. And yet few seem to know anything about us...


History aside, the greater Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal areas hold roughly 1/3 of the Canadian population.  With, and I'm just guessing, perhaps a couple of thousand CAF employees in each, it's not a huge presence.

******

It's not always just immigrants from countries having a bad view of the military, many have a bad view of public service in general due to inherent corruption back home.  As well, they steer (to be kind in some cases) their kids away from anything that is considered 'blue collar'.

Even among established generations, there has developed a rather unique attitude among young generation urbanites who view moving away from their immediate circle of family and friends to be a significant roadblock, so any career prospect with the likes of the military for many would be a non-starter.  Heck, in Toronto, for many, north of Eglinton is viewed as akin to Outer Mongolia.  Couple that with a general distaste for anything outside or physical, or that can't take advantage of that BA in early European poetry, and I have a hard time seeing a target rich environment no matter how much effort or targeting goes on.  Maybe better outreach at the school level, but I can image the backlash at even the thought of it.


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## Blackadder1916 (26 Apr 2022)

KevinB said:


> Maybe plagiarize ours...
> "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."



And I thought yours read . . .

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Or if an officer . . .

I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God. (Title 5 U.S. Code 3331, an individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services)


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## Ostrozac (26 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> History aside, the greater Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal areas hold roughly 1/3 of the Canadian population.  With, and I'm just guessing, perhaps a couple of thousand CAF employees in each, it's not a huge presence.


I have an enduring fear that the closure of CFBs Chilliwack, Toronto and St Hubert (as well as Calgary) in the 1990’s were a turning point in the CAF relationship with urban Canada that we may never recover from. We turned our collective backs on the largest population centers in the country. Now, with our traditional recruiting areas in small town Canada being seemingly depopulated of their fighting age potential recruits, we are trying to reach back into those big cities. And failing.

It may be too late.


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## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Heck, in Toronto, for many, north of Eglinton is viewed as akin to Outer Mongolia.


Sounds like the RMC logistic 2Lt who much to her horror got posted to Wainwright.


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## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> Now, with our traditional recruiting areas in small town Canada being seemingly depopulated


I watched that exodus during my school years in Western Manitoba.  But if you listen to our detractors, rural Canada is the only place we are looking to gain recruits from!


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## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

Remius said:


> Once you understand what the Queen of Canada embodies and personifies you understand that you actually pledge allegiance to the nation.  We don’t properly teach civics in this country.



You call roll around in word games all you like but that oath is pretty simple.  

As support for the crown continues into obscurity our country is going to have to confront this messy intersection.


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## Underway (26 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> History aside, the greater Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal areas hold roughly 1/3 of the Canadian population.  With, and I'm just guessing, perhaps a couple of thousand CAF employees in each, it's not a huge presence.
> 
> ******
> 
> It's not always just immigrants from countries having a bad view of the military, many have a bad view of public service in general due to inherent corruption back home.  As well, they steer (to be kind in some cases) their kids away from anything that is considered 'blue collar'.


Plenty of immigrant communities have positive views of the military as well.  S. Korean community is very common in the RCN in my experience.

There are fixes for recruitment issues on this.  But it requires a whole of government approach that I don't think the Treasury Board or Immigration are willing to change.

accepting security clearances from Immigration Canada as valid for Basic Training and certain trades, if better security clearances are needed then initiate them at recruiting group and delay their trades training until its valid (Treasury Board Policy)
accepting non-citizens through a "gain your citizenship program" similar to the USMC or French Foreign Legion (Immigration and Treasury Board Policy)
this in particular would require a change in the "points" system to allow people who don't meet the current cream of the crop standards
language training like in the Foreign Legion in an official language as part of their recruitment
this may go back to the security clearance from earlier. Immigration would accept CAF security clearances to make the new members citizens because we have a higher standard than they do.

accepting commonwealth citizens as the UK does.  This would immediately increase recruiting because Canada pays waaaaaay more then the UK does.  All the folks from the Pacific Islands who join the Hussars in the UK would join the RCD's in Canada instead because they send the money back home to the family.  And the bonus is they all speak English already.


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## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You call roll around in word games all you like but that oath is pretty simple.
> 
> As support for the crown continues into obscurity our country is going to have to confront this messy intersection.


Seeing as it's enshrined in our Constitution that the Crown is the Head of State and would require a full Constitutional Amendment to be removed.... good luck.


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## Halifax Tar (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Seeing as it's enshrined in our Constitution that the Crown is the Head of State and would require a full Constitutional Amendment to be removed.... good luck.



Fully aware, hence the use of "messy intersection". 

Thanks to our forefathers it's not an easy thing to do.


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## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Thanks to our forefathers it's not an easy thing to do.


After seeing the complete train wreck that was 6 Jan 2021, I am content with maintaining a Constitutional Monarchy, if merely only symbolic, than adopting a partisan Head of State in a Republic. 

As was stated before, the Crown, regardless of who wears it, represents all subjects, regardless of political opinion or belief.


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## Remius (26 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You call roll around in word games all you like but that oath is pretty simple.
> 
> As support for the crown continues into obscurity our country is going to have to confront this messy intersection.


Has nothing to do with any roll around.  It’s the concept.  Whether you pledge alliegance to an inanimate object that personifies the state or a human you are in effect pledging allegiance to the nation and what it stands for. 

Read up on what the Crown represents.  You can disagree all you want but you are wrong if you think you haven’t pledged allegiance to your country and nation.


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## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

Our first nations also see the Crown as another bulwark (although a rather toothless one) against the overreach of folks inhabiting the hill overlooking the Ottawa River.


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## dimsum (26 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Seems as though a lot of these *Cultural *differences are not due to the CAF being unwelcoming to diverse candidates, but more being undesirable to the target demographics.
> 
> I'm a First Gen Canadian that grew up in Toronto. I was part of the Cadet program in high-school and we had a large diversity of cadets from every culture in our ranks. Parents were supportive because it was an free extracurricular that helped pad the university application. The second the conversation changed to joining the CAF, "oh dear no. We want so much more for our child than..._that_"
> 
> ...


Huh.  Are you me?


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## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2022)

All this talk about visibility and image...obviously things are different than all the years I (and others) were encouraged to minimize our exposure in public when in dress other than DEU (IIRC, combats were flat out forbidden - change at work).  I suppose the organization will always be at the mercy of politicians who want to run on the horror of "soldiers in streets".


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## rmc_wannabe (26 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> Huh.  Are you me?


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## Underway (26 Apr 2022)

FSTO said:


> Our first nations also see the Crown as another bulwark (although a rather toothless one) against the overreach of folks inhabiting the hill overlooking the Ottawa River.


And some like the Mohawk see themselves as having their own Crown.


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## Kilted (26 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> That would give the game away.





KevinB said:


> Maybe plagiarize ours...
> "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


I went to a private school for a little bit in elementary school.  It was part of an American system that required that the Pledge to the Flag was said every morning, and someone got the bright idea to change the words to "I pledge allegiance to the Canadian Flag and to the Dominion upon which it stands..."  We also sang the anthem in English and French, not the bilingual version, both complete songs.  Then at one point we sang the French version in English as well.

I should add that no one at this school actually spoke French.


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## ArmyRick (26 Apr 2022)

Good Fooking grief. I am glad to be out of the CAF now. It seems the CAF is once again a political football for politicians and the socialist who won't be happy until is gone.


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## dimsum (26 Apr 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> Good Fooking grief. I am glad to be out of the CAF now. It seems the CAF is once again a political football for politicians and the socialist who won't be happy until is gone.


...once again?  

After WWII, when _wasn't_ it a political football?  And even during WWII, with Conscription and such, there were elements of football-ness.


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## Weinie (26 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Fully aware, hence the use of "messy intersection".
> 
> Thanks to our forefathers it's not an easy thing to do.


You obviously mean forepeople here.


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## quadrapiper (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Its my opinion we should swear allegiance to the nation and not a head of state.


In a conceptual post-Crown Canada, that would likely be preferable. Or a "SPQR with a maple leaf" _government and people(s) of Canada_ concept.


Underway said:


> It's an important distinction that the US military swears on the _constitution_ not a person. It's the final US guarantee after the separation of Congress, Senate, Court, President, that democracy will not be turned into tyranny/dictatorship.  It basically empowers the US military to enforce the Constitutional process.


It's worked so far, but has always seemed somewhat fragile, the constitution itself and the structures driven by it being in some cases less than straightforward. Who defines what _upholding the Constitution _looks like? A positional oath to a monarch is at least tidier: easier to parse in crisis.


Underway said:


> Plenty of immigrant communities have positive views of the military as well.  S. Korean community is very common in the RCN in my experience.
> 
> There are fixes for recruitment issues on this.  But it requires a whole of government approach that I don't think the Treasury Board or Immigration are willing to change.
> 
> ...


Would likely need to stifle a few Civil Service voices objecting to poaching other (developing) nations' "best and brightest."

Quite like all those ideas.


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## quadrapiper (26 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Maybe better outreach at the school level, but I can image the backlash at even the thought of it.


Given how wary the CAF seems to be of even breathing the notion of "maybe join us at some point" around _cadets_, there might be an institutional block somewhere.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Apr 2022)

Padres days are numbered.

We should swap them with officers who wander unit lines reciting litanies of discipline (aka QR&Os).


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## PuckChaser (26 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Padres days are numbered.
> 
> We should swap them with officers who wander unit lines reciting litanies of discipline (aka QR&Os).


Social Justice Political Officers.


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## Weinie (26 Apr 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> Social Justice Political Officers.


They are called Commissars. Get your language straight.....or else.


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## PuckChaser (26 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> Get your language straight


That kind of language is heteronormative and offensive.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Padres days are numbered.
> 
> We should swap them with officers who wander unit lines reciting litanies of discipline (aka QR&Os).



I'm sure there are those who would relish the chance to eliminate some of the few people in the CAF who are specifically trained/qualified in ethics.


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## Weinie (26 Apr 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> That kind of language is heteronormative and offensive.


My most gracious and enduring thanks Commissar. As you have pointed out,  I failed, when I said "Get your language straight." I obviously fell into the decadent Western trap that they had set.

I meant to say "Get your language aligned and permitted."


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## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2022)

Our father who art in uniform, ooo you are so big...


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## PuckChaser (26 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Our father who art in uniform, ooo you are so big...


Promotion of toxic masculinity and the patriarchy, that's a paddlin'


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## RangerRay (26 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> A few years ago the Mayor of Winnipeg stated maybe it was time for the Royal Winnipeg Rifles statue to be moved to a less visible location. He only mentioned it once. And the statue is still there.



Is that the Northwest Rebellion victory column by the Museum?  It’s beautiful and I would hate to see it go.  I also understand why some locals are bent out of shape over it.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> History aside, the greater Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal areas hold roughly 1/3 of the Canadian population.  With, and I'm just guessing, perhaps a couple of thousand CAF employees in each, it's not a huge presence.
> 
> ******
> 
> ...





> Maybe better outreach at the school level, but I can image the backlash at even the thought of it.



I joined the PRes when I was 16.  Not sure how common that is now.

Saw this from Mar 28, 2022,
As the military struggles with recruitment, Atlantic Canada answers the call​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/military-enlistment-atlantic-1.6394787
		




> "They always tend to over-recruit from non-urban areas and from lower socioeconomic strata," said Eichler, who leads the Centre for Social Innovation and Community Engagement in Military Affairs at the university.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Apr 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Is that the Northwest Rebellion victory column by the Museum?  It’s beautiful and I would hate to see it go.  I also understand why some locals are bent out of shape over it.



Just don't mention the ....
Carignan-Salières Regiment​








						Carignan-Salières Regiment - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## FSTO (26 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> My most gracious and enduring thanks Commissar. As you have pointed out,  I failed, when I said "Get your language straight." I obviously fell into the decadent Western trap that they had set.
> 
> I meant to say "Get your language aligned and permitted."


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## Ostrozac (26 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> As the military struggles with recruitment, Atlantic Canada answers the call​


The Atlantic has always been the answer to our recruiting calls. The fear is that their demographics are drying up and going forward there simply won’t be enough Newfoundlanders and Maritimers turning 18 to fill that role. Newfoundland’s population is shrinking, and they have the oldest median age in the country.


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## Weinie (26 Apr 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> *The Atlantic has always been the answer to our recruiting calls.* The fear is that their demographics are drying up and going forward there simply won’t be enough Newfoundlanders and Maritimers turning 18 to fill that role. Newfoundland’s population is shrinking, and they have the oldest median age in the country.


I got the t-shirt.


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## KevinB (26 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> My most gracious and enduring thanks Commissar. As you have pointed out,  I failed, when I said "Get your language straight." I obviously fell into the decadent Western trap that they had set.
> 
> I meant to say "Get your language aligned and permitted."


Your isn't inclusive enough.

 I should be "Get OUR language aligned and permitted"...


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## Remius (26 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Just don't mention the ....
> Carignan-Salières Regiment​
> 
> 
> ...


Hmn…my first ancestor to arrive here was with that particular unit.


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## ueo (27 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Maybe CFLA’s ‘EXECUTREC’ program didn’t focus out West.  On numerous times, I flew groups of business executive from Toronto to various bases for capability/firepower demonstrations that included meet and greet periods that in some cases, had some of the executives’ companies’ own employees serving as Reservists, speak to them about the various capabilities.
> 
> If that’s not happening now, I’d cynically think it’s because the Government doesn’t want it to happen.


I participated in several of these as the "military" host. Spent many hours in the company of Presidents/CEO's etc of some of the most influential companies in sw Ont. Learned a lot as did they. Saw local changes in support to PRes units in particular and the CF in general. Many of the problems we institutionally experience are similar to theirs. Difference they could directly influence change, us not so much. Do not know if this practice is being continued. Should be tho'.


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## KevinB (27 Apr 2022)

ueo said:


> I participated in several of these as the "military" host. Spent many hours in the company of Presidents/CEO's etc of some of the most influential companies in sw Ont. Learned a lot as did they. Saw local changes in support to PRes units in particular and the CF in general. Many of the problems we institutionally experience are similar to theirs. Difference they could directly influence change, us not so much. Do not know if this practice is being continued. Should be tho'.


Several years ago a buddy of mine who runs a charity for wounded SoF veterans ran a 4 day team building ‘offsite’ as part of their national sales force annual meeting/training for a large multinational company.   It started with a small Det roping in to Capital Place arena - followed by equipment and weapons demonstrations - several ‘breakout rooms’ and then we did some weapons instruction and a day of live fire with pistol, carbine and LMG at the NRA range, and we demonstrated some low light entries.  
   The attendees loved it - the units that allowed some of their personnel to take leave for it got some pretty good relationships - and as I understand it, that company ended up doing several more like it but closer to military installations of those units, and go to do some actually stuff on post with those units.  

Veterans got some screaming deals on their product - as well as several things where donated to support team houses for deployed personnel.  

Community and Industry outreach is a fantastic way to breed understanding with the citizenry that one is serving - one a two way street.


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## OldSolduer (27 Apr 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Is that the Northwest Rebellion victory column by the Museum?  It’s beautiful and I would hate to see it go.  I also understand why some locals are bent out of shape over it.


Yes it is. I'm glad it wasn't on the Legislative grounds.

Of course, our local CTV station had some "expert" on this morning speaking about the toxicity etc. 

It is like someone planned this.....


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## RangerRay (27 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Yes it is. I'm glad it wasn't on the Legislative grounds.
> 
> Of course, our local CTV station had some "expert" on this morning speaking about the toxicity etc.
> 
> It is like someone planned this.....


It’s already shunted off to the side between two big buildings and you won’t see it unless you’re looking for it.  Just put up a plaque giving historical context and leave it be.


----------

