# Doing NavRes MARS phases in one year



## x-grunt (30 Jul 2005)

_(I originally had this under the BOTC changes thread, but it really is a seperate question.)_

I understand the MARS MOC can be done either in three summers or in one complete year. I could conceivably do the one year long program. Not sure how I apply for this but I'd prefer it, get it done and move ahead. My wife is supportive of this IF I can assure her there will be sufficient family time after basic. I honestly do not know if this is possible. Is it?

I am clear that IAP/BOTC means living on base and working my tail off 24/7 - no family time. No problem. Been through basic before. But what about the following phases? Is it possible to have time with family i.e. regular evening and weekends through most of the phases? Of course there will be times when the N/Cdts are required to work, that's no issue, I'd just like to know if there is time and space to be with family if they live in Vic.


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## coors (30 Jul 2005)

a number of my close friends have completed MARS training. They all said that VERY few do it in one straight year as it is very stressful and you really don't get any breaks. Most were enginering students as well so they are used to a lot of work etc. I would recommend giving it some serious thought before you decide.  However as you said it can be done.


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## x-grunt (30 Jul 2005)

coors, thanks for the info.


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## MissHardie (16 Aug 2005)

x-grunt,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but given my experience and (albeit 4 months out of date) knowledge it is extremely, <i>extremely</i> unlikely that as a reservist you'll even be given the option of doing the entire MARS training programme in one year.  Nine people on my BOTC (including me) had designs on completing their MARS courses back to back, but the way BOTC and NETP-O are now rigged makes it utterly impossible to move straight onto MARS 3 in the fall - fall training nights at the home NRD are spent finishing BOTC, while winter is devoted to finishing NETP-O.  Only after you've completed these distance-learning packages are you eligible for MARS 3.   

The chances of doing MARS 4 right after MARS 3 are much greater, though you'll have to be loaded onto at least one Reg course, as Res courses only run during the summer.  Res and Reg MARS 3 are, to the best of my knowledge, identical, though there are substantial differences between the MARS 4 courses.  

Hope that info helps.  

Miss Hardie


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## x-grunt (16 Aug 2005)

MissHardie, Thanks, that's good info. You're always a big help. We can use this to plan for the longer term. (Provided I ever get through the recruiting phase! 13 months and counting, now.)


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## Chummy (12 Sep 2005)

count me on the list of those unable to get on MARS III directly after NETP-O.    I am not aware of any reservists who got on the Reg MARS III course this fall... there is no fall RES course. If you are lucky enough to get on the course, they will make arrangements to expedite the DL package to finish NETP-O, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. There was no BOTC DL package this year. 

However, I would assume that there will be gaps in your training... great if not, but I gather very few, if any, have been able to go straight through, for several years now. Also assume it will be difficult to get full time work as a NCdt or A/Slt, since you will be mostly untrained, and there is not much consistent GD work after the summer.  Fortunately my NRD has been very helpful, but the fact is that not all NRD's will be in a position to give you more than the regular class A nights. 

Circumstances may change by the time you are done BOTC and NETP-O, but my advice is to have a good plan B.


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## Gus (15 Sep 2005)

Getting training for NAVRES MARS officers on a continuous basis fell apart in 2004.  I was staff at NOTC, although I left six months ago I'll let you know what had been set up (although NAVRES HQ is constantly asking for changes).

* in 2004 NAVRES HQ wanted to get all of the training done in 3 consecutive summers, but the number of weeks of training (54) exceeds the number of weeks in 3 summer (48 in total)
* in order to maintain a Total Force training standard - i.e., that BOTC, NETPO, MARS III and MARS IV have the SAME course standard and training delivery, the only way to get three summers of training was to move some of the material to be instructed at the Naval Reserve Divisions
* all Regular Force officers complete the full BOTC before arriving at NOTC, and the full NETPO at NOTC, so there is no issue of scheduling the follow-on MARS III, which was generally in early September
* there was some consideration given to finishing off BOTC and NETPO for those that wanted to, but two factors stopped that: first, was that there were not enough potential candidates to make running the "continuation courses" viable; second, was that there was not enough time in the fall to get the BOTC/NETPO completed and start the MARS III with the Regular Force serial - and there was not enough resources to run two separate MARS III courses (given that there are other courses running, as well)
* so, regrettably NAVRES officers get stuck into: summer 1-BOTC/NETPO, fall & winter 1-finish BOTC/NETPO, summer 2-MARS III, summer 3-MARS IV.  There is the possibility that 'misshardie' mentioned, of doing MARS III and IV consecutively after summer 2.  NOTC's policy (when I was there) was that candidates, regardless of component, were loaded on the courses as space was available.  It was a dialogue between DMTE (Ottawa - for Reg Force), and NAVRES HQ about how many of each component went into a course (contrary to conspiracy theory and typical NOTC bashing, NOTC was not the unit that decided the priority).  Typically when I was there out of a course of 20 spaces for MARS IV, about 1/3 would be NAVRES folks, based mostly on their availability but admittedly some did not get the course when they wanted it

Oh, and just to be clear, no matter what anybody says this is what the NAVRES HQ wanted!!  They knew it would prevent people from doing their training straight through.

Many years ago there were differences, and the NAVRES training was a weaker standard (when I did training, a looong time ago, the NAVRES students didn't even go to NOTC!)However, to correct 'misshardie', as I mentioned above, when I left NOTC there was no distinction between Reg and Res MARS training, and was that way since around 2000 unofficially and 2001 officially.  There was a small exception in NETPO, which was about six or eight lectures that were specific to HALIFAX class ships, replaced with lectures specific to KINGSTON class ships, and the Reg Force did a little bit more on Force Protection etc.  But for MARS III and IV, the courses were the same: the same material, the same standards, although the NAVRES "summer" modules created a difference in timing and some delivery methods.  

The idea of Total Force training, laid out as part of the VCDS's white paper some years ago, was championed by NOTC.  It was NOTC that drove the programme to one standard for all MARS officers.  In fact, some very senior people in NAVRES did NOT want it to happen (and still fight against it).  NOTC's viewpoint was that the basic maritime skills required of ALL those who stand a bridge watch, were the same.  Depending on the class of ship the person goes to after training determines the types of intermediate and advanced training the person receives.

It is unfortunate that NAVRES continues to fight the common standard, but that's empire building for you.

Finally, in terms of finding out exactly what is happening, my advice is to contact NOTC directly.  My experience as NOTC staff showed me something very clearly: too many "experienced" MARS officers in the NRDs did not know what was going on because they were describing their training from three, five or even ten years ago and assuming it was the same; and that even people in NAVRES HQ did not seem to know, or would not give full information.  Even my notes may be wrong as I left NOTC six months ago and it's possible that there is going to be a separation of the standards.  So, as I mentioned, contact NOTC directly: get in touch with the Assistant MARS Department Head, that's the person who coordinates all of this stuff for the MARS department.

A long post, but one that I hope will help.


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## RecDiver (15 Sep 2005)

Gus; Thank you for your informative post. I am learning more about NavRes thru posts like yours with the help of army.ca than anywhere else.

It seems the whole NavRes system is designed for younger folks who are either at school or just out of it. And in whole honesty, probably thats how it should be. However, for someone like me, who is an older recruit, comfortable with his civvie day job, has a house, mortgage, kids, pets, tons of bills to pay, this whole off-site training becomes a serious problem. 

At this point in my life I am having trouble seeing to get weeks and weeks of timeoff, year after year, to get trained elsewhere. May be 5-6 weeks one summer for the basic training can be worked into a civvie life. But anything more would cause a loss of job and family.

Any thoughts about how this training can be structured so that the impact to civvie job and family is minimized? I used to hear about in unit trainings counting towards the overall training, but haven't seen anything formal on that other than hearsay.


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## Gus (15 Sep 2005)

RecDiver

Unfortunately, I cannot see how you will be able to complete MARS training if you cannot get to NOTC for 12-16 weeks at a time.  The MARS training won't be re-structured to do any more in the NRDs than there is now, even if the Reg and Res go into separate standars; too much of it is practical training (over one-half) that requires a person to be in Victoria.

If you find that you may not be able to take those great chunks of time, and if you are primarily going to be Class A, I think that you should consider NCAGS/INT.  I am MARS, but do not do the typical sneering at the INT folks; I think that the INT occupation is growing in importance, and in terms of a Class A reservist, the INT occupation can actually work in trade in a NRD and contribute.  MARS folks end up doing a lot of admin (as does everyone at some point) but to do things are directly MARS, we have to go to ships or to the simulator.  The contribution that reserve INT will make to the Navy overall in the coming years will add more value to the Navy than the MARS community.

Frankly, the Class A MARS officers do not conribute a great deal of "value-added" as they are shunned by the full-timers, Reg AND Res Class B.  The full-time folks in the MCDVs who've been doing it for years and years on end really are not reservists, they are in effect Reg force people, so in my view they don't add a specific contribution to the Navy.  That's not to say they are not valuable, the MCDVs to a great deal of important work, I just think that since they are full-time they might as well be Reg force crewed ships.  In my view the reserve community, Army, Air Force or Navy, should be bringing fairly unique skills to the table for specific periods.  While one might argue that there are Reg force INT so my idea of uniqueness doesn't wash, what the reserve INT bring is an ability to contribute as a part-timer (and to contribute for short periods as full-time).

More rambling from someone who thinks the Naval Reserve is looking back to the 1990s for direction, when we should be looking ahead. :-X


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## RecDiver (16 Sep 2005)

Hi Gus;

Thank you for sharing your frank opinion. I apologize for not saying earlier, but yes, for the factors you have mentioned, I have actually chosen the INT trade. I did not want to add that to my profile, because I have not yet earned the North Star.

If I was couple of decades younger and have minimal or no family/work responsibilities, MARS would have been my first choice and I know I would be very good and successful at that. But todays reality made me chose this other best path.

Cheers,


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## MissHardie (16 Sep 2005)

Gus,

Thanks for the clarification there regarding the Reg/Res MARS IV course.  I was told they differed early last year, which led me to wonder why there was any point in doing the fall MARS IV serial at all as a reservist, but this is great news.   

Miss Hardie


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## Gus (16 Sep 2005)

Right now the only noticeable difference is that reg force trainees go to ships for 6 weeks as a minimum, although it has gone as high as 8 weeks - based on 1 week at sea for each trainee per ship, and some courses had 8 trainees per ship.  Based on the "ideal" of 6 trainees per ship, everyone does the exact same 6 week training, then the regular force trainees get posted to a DD, FF or AOR to progress OOD and BWK, and the naval reserve folks stay on board the MCDV to continue progressing OOD and MWS BWK.

Yesterday I was having lunch with a chum of mine from NOTC.  Apparently there is a plan brewing to have separate MARS IV for the regular force and naval reserve, with the regular force doing training in a different class of ship, the "ORCA" which is replacing the YAG.  The naval reserve would still do it in MCDV.  As the bulk of the "ORCA" fleet will not be fully in service for a few years, I imagine there will be no difference through at least 2006.

Funny addendum to the YAG replacement.  "ORCA" class was not an official designation, there was no class name and in various e-mail exchanges people used various names and ORCA seemed to stick.  Then, someone in an interview mentioned them as "ORCA", soon after someone else issued a press release naming them as "ORCA" based on the original (and unofficial) reference during the interview.  Pretty soon the Admiral was calling it "ORCA", and lo and behold, the vessels are now offiicially "ORCA".  A good friend of mine in the project said that was the general gist of what happened.  HA!


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## Phrontis (19 Oct 2005)

The suggested change which would have seen Reg Force MARS IV going to sea in ORCAs and Reserve Force in MCDVs has been put on hold for the foreseeable future.  It ran aground on the manning issues involved with putting an ORCA to sea 24/5 for six to eight weeks per course.

Personally, I'm relieved, as it took a long time to bring the two worlds (reg and reserve) together in terms of training, and it would be too bad to split them apart again.  All the advantages of being able to cross-load would be lost.

This doesn't mean that the manning problem might not be solved in the future and the plan resurrected, but initially anyway the training will reflect the status quo, even once ORCAs start coming online.


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## Gus (30 Oct 2005)

That's good news.  I think that splitting the core training would be a mistake.  My personal view of the future is that there should be more interchangability between the navres and reg forces officers (and crews) in the various classes of ships; that would make it a true "total force".


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## tree hugger (30 Oct 2005)

RecDiver said:
			
		

> At this point in my life I am having trouble seeing to get weeks and weeks of timeoff, year after year, to get trained elsewhere. May be 5-6 weeks one summer for the basic training can be worked into a civvie life. But anything more would cause a loss of job and family.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How has the int training been set up?  Does it have lots of in house trg that solves the above problems?


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## RecDiver (9 Nov 2005)

Unfortunately I am still in the dark.

It seems, to continue, I have to take the long summer programme (IAP/BOTC etc) first. There are no alternatives that anyone knows as yet. However, I have submitted a memo to my divisional structure asking for their creative wisdom. May be (I am praying) there is some installment type process (i.e few weeks at a time).

However, once that phase is over, the INT training apparently is shorter (8 weeks??) to be supplemented with distance learning.

Lesson I have learned so far is, 

(a) The system is designed for younger crowd. Folks who are either at school or just finished school, which actually makes sense. We need new, strong, fresh blood to be successful as a CF. However, I also believe that, people like me, with long civilian work experience at various management levels would have much to contribute as well.

(b) I should have woke up earlier (at least 2 decades earlier) to enroll, instead of getting caught up in the rat race of civilian work life and find a happy medium earlier.

(c) Current process and options are not possible for someone who is not so young (I am almost 50), has family, mortgage and a stressful job. I am hearing that basic training for NavRes, some 10 or so years ago was couple of weeks. Now that would have been something to look forward to. I know some younger ones will object to this, but thats my feeling. All those who started their Naval status with those few weeks are now in various leadership positions.

(d) If nothing, the whole process made me get back into PT mode. I have my gym membership and I am at the gym at least twice a week. Some years ago, you wouldn't be able to pay me to go there. Now, it is something I look forward to. However painful afterwards, I enjoy the Wednesday nite runs and PT dark and cold at nite, with other 18yo recruits and trying to keep up with the pace.

(e) I am now advising all my friends to consider asking and teaching their daughters, sons to be part of CF. 

<end of rant>

Cheers,


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## pc (30 Dec 2005)

RecDiver,
   Its funny you should mention management.  Its the one thing that prevented my husband from going directly into the Reg Force from University.  Now he has to balance a civvie job with his reserve career while trying to get the required 'paid leadership' that he requires to get into reg force.  I agree that it should be possible to do this in one year.  His civvie job has a guaranteed leave of absence for military service.  That being said the last time he used this LOA they changed the dates, said he left early and fired him.  It took the union 6 weeks to get his job back.  So it would be better for him to only have to return once from all of his training than 4 or 5 times.  I completely support the 10ish months that it takes.  I do have a question for all of those in the know.  If his basic is done at the end of April and MARS III starts in the summer what are the chances that he can somehow rush through all the NRD portion of the NETP-O so that he can make it to MARS III this summer then maybe get into his MARS IV this fall.  He has been told that he should be going reg force basic early this coming year.
Thanks


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## Gus (31 Dec 2005)

It's a tricky proposition.  For good or bad, RecDiver has pointed out the cornerstone of the issue, that the training is set up for a young(er) university/college student.  Is this the best way ahead?  Well, I could write volumes on this, but the short version is that the HQ focusses on a summer-to-summer model for progression, not a straight-through model.  Actually, I was at several meetings where senior staff indicated that year-round training would not be necessary for naval reserve MARS trainees; fortunately, NOTC didn't buy into that, and tried hard to keep the option there, although there is the NETPO hiccup.  Regrettably, that is just the way it is, as NOTC is in the training delivery business, not the training management.

Anyway, in terms of getting reg force training, it sounds like he's getting into the recruit school at St Jean?  If that's the case, I can give you two almost equally pessimistic possibilities: first, he gets his basic all done, but still gets caught in the "some-here some-there" NETPO scheme that's come up, thus requiring a break in continuous service; second is that he gets right into a reg force NETPO and can move forward into continuous training, although that's not a guarantee either, as reg force training takes into account second-language training, which often is before the MARS training.  So, both have hiccups.  What he needs is an individual plan -- now, I was at NOTC and I used to dread the phone calls from NRDs about "I have this one person....".  Having said that, it may be possible; my advice is to contact NOTC to see what they think -- I am not trying to undermine the NRD or the HQ, but frankly they won't be in the know enough to sort it out, and as NOTC ultimately delivers the training, they have final say.

So, what you are thinking of is possible, but would require some work to make happen.  I've been gone from NOTC for eight months now, so I don't know what the flavour is like these days with respect to the "one of" people, but I do know the folks in the key positions, and they are great officers.

Good luck.


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