# Military looks at foreign recruits to boost ranks



## jollyjacktar (25 May 2018)

Full story and info graphics at story link below



> Military looks at foreign recruits to boost ranks
> Review underway to consider lifting citizenship requirement for Canadian Armed Forces
> Kathleen Harris · CBC News · Posted: May 25, 2018 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 2 hours ago
> 
> ...


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## Remius (25 May 2018)

There is a whole pool of qualified types that this would allow us to tap into.


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## Edward Campbell (25 May 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Full story and info graphics at story link below
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't know how to define longstanding, but when I enlisted (1960) there was no citizenship requirement for other ranks and officers had to be 'British subjects.' We had some excellent officers and downright superb non-commissioned officers from a variety of countries and backgrounds ... including recent (15 years ago, then) enemies.


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## PPCLI Guy (25 May 2018)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I don't know how to define longstanding, but when I enlisted (1960) there was no citizenship requirement for other ranks and officers had to be 'British subjects.' We had some excellent officers and downright superb non-commissioned officers from a variety of countries and backgrounds ... including recent (15 years ago, then) enemies.



I joined as a Landed Immigrant (1980), and at the time I had not even applied for citizenship.


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2018)

This is a great idea


> Canada's military is considering lifting a longstanding citizenship requirement as a way to boost its numbers.
> 
> Right now, the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) offers waivers to foreign nationals only in exceptional cases — to individuals on international military exchanges, for example, or to candidates who have specialized skills in high demand.
> 
> ...





Remove citizenship from a requirement to join the military. 

I can think of some Canadian citizens who just returned from combat who probably have a lot of friends overseas still with combat experience  who can come to Canada and join the CAF. Think of the money we'll save with training  :nod:

But really i guess that's one way to get our numbers up.


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## Altair (27 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> This is a great idea
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Americans do it. 

France as well


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## mariomike (27 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Americans do it.
> 
> France as well



For reference to the discussion,

List of militaries that recruit foreigners
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_militaries_that_recruit_foreigners


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Americans do it.
> 
> France as well


 

Can I presume you support Canadians open carrying AR15 rifles around town and people accused of crimes being considered guilty until proven innocent?


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## Remius (27 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Can I presume you support Canadians open carrying AR15 rifles around town and people accused of crimes being considered guilty until proven innocent?



Huh?


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> For reference to the discussion,
> 
> List of militaries that recruit foreigners
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_militaries_that_recruit_foreigners



Most of those countries seem to have significant requirements such as a willingness to become a citizen, recruiting from certain allied countries, certain time lived in a country, reading and writing proficiency. 

Given our government's actions with returning Canadian terrorists I have a suspicions our foreigner recruiting requirements would be fairly open.

With our messed up recruiting and school system is recruiting foreigners a good answer to alievate our numbers problem? If we can't get an english kid from Ottawa vetted and trained in a reasonable amount of time how would we handle someone from Djibouti?

I just met a young soldier who finished his basic training and will be on PAT platoon for 11 months before his trade course starts.


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Huh?


Americans do it, France as well.

Association fallacy.


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## Underway (27 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Most of those countries seem to have significant requirements such as a willingness to become a citizen, recruiting from certain allied countries, certain time lived in a country, reading and writing proficiency.
> 
> Given our government's actions with returning Canadian terrorists I have a suspicions our foreigner recruiting requirements would be fairly open.
> 
> ...



The training system isn't recruitings problem.

As for foreign entanglements, the security clearance process takes about a year or longer for members that are from "sketchy" places, many times those people have their citizenship before we can validate their security clearance (just to reliable, not even secret!) as it takes so long.  

It took one person I know an Afghan Vet and UK armoured soldier 3 years to get into the Militia because he had to get his citizenship.  There is no reason he couldn't just walk across and do his trades training (he switched to RCA from armoured) aside from that issue.  For previous NATO service members it should be easy.  There are plenty of marriages and movement of people. 

Canada also pays way higher for its positions than just about everyone but Australia for the most part.  You don't think there will be a "brain drain" on the UK once we get this up an running?  I once had a full section of UK soldiers asking me about opportunities in the CA because the pay and benefits were better.  They were from various commonwealth islands in the pacific and sent much of their paychecks home to their families, like is common for those places where job opportunities are scarce.

Combine that with a "you earned your citizenship" system and you have a winner.  One of the issues with the CAF (and Canada in general) is that we fail to make an impact on new Canadians who have their own ideas about military service related to the culture of where they came from.  What could be a better education for new Canadians then joining and serving their new country?  In the future I see more voters paying attention to military issues from those communities.

I can really see this as a winner, especially for the Reserve units.


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## Remius (27 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Americans do it, France as well.
> 
> Association fallacy.



Well if some countries make something work it might be worth looking into.  You linking open carry or whatever else make sure no sense in the context of the discussion.  At all.  Your rebuttal argument above at least provided context.


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Well if some countries make something work it might be worth looking into.  You linking open carry or whatever else make sure no sense in the context of the discussion.  At all.  Your rebuttal argument above at least provided context.



It did provide some exceptionally astute context didn't it? Thanks.


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## Jarnhamar (27 May 2018)

[quote author=Underway] 
The training system isn't recruitings problem.[/QUOTE] 

But both are the Canadian Forces problem and both are contributing to our shortcomings and retention issues. 




> As for foreign entanglements, the security clearance process takes about a year or longer for members that are from "sketchy" places, many times those people have their citizenship before we can validate their security clearance (just to reliable, not even secret!) as it takes so long.


I think I'm going on 4 years waiting for my security clearance. 



> I can really see this as a winner, especially for the Reserve units.



I'm not sold it's a good idea but I'm open to being wrong. You brought up good counter-points. 
I still think we need to fix our recruiting and training system before we even consider something like this.


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## FJAG (27 May 2018)

Underway said:
			
		

> . . .
> As for foreign entanglements, the security clearance process takes about a year or longer for members that are from "sketchy" places, many times those people have their citizenship before we can validate their security clearance (just to reliable, not even secret!) as it takes so long.
> . . .



That's a good point but can be dealt with.

When I first joined the Militia in 1965 as a gunner I had no problem enrolling and I was pretty much medicaled and sworn in the night I showed up. (Yup. That's how it worked then) I was a naturalized Canadian citizen being an immigrant from Germany. Security clearance never came up though.

When I transferred to the regular army as an officer candidate in 1969, however, and while I quickly received a security clearance of "Confidential", my clearance to "Secret" took some two years (which in those days was a very long time indeed) as there were relatives that I had living in East Germany that had to be checked out.

 :cheers:


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## jollyjacktar (27 May 2018)

On my last tour at KAF l had numerous Americans come up to me and ask how they could join the Canadian Army.  I too think it's ludicrous, Underway, that we don't accept fellow Commonwealth/NATO service personnel with open arms and minimal hassle.


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## dimsum (27 May 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> On my last tour at KAF l had numerous Americans come up to me and ask how they could join the Canadian Army.  I too think it's ludicrous, Underway, that we don't accept fellow Commonwealth/NATO service personnel with open arms and minimal hassle.



What were the reasons that the Americans wanted to jump ship?


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## jollyjacktar (27 May 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> What were the reasons that the Americans wanted to jump ship?



The general theme seemed to be (in their opinion) we were better treated, better paid, shorter tours, liked Canada and felt there were more opportunities, IRRC.

I do remember a conversation l had on the boardwalk with an American Army Capt.  We were comparing HLTA, pay, rotation ops tempo, resigning bonus etc.

He said they had to use their annual for leave from in Theatre, were flown back to their home base and no third location.  He was very jealous when l gave hom our options.  As for resigning, he had "re-upped" and his bonus was $50K, which he fervently hope would come in while he was there as it would be tax free.  I told him l had signed IPS just before leaving Canada.  I explained it would take me to age 55, his eyes goggled and he asked what kind of bonus l received for that kind of commitment.  I laughed and said l got to keep my job.  He thought l was insane.  ;D


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## garb811 (27 May 2018)

The MP Branch used to exchange officers with RMP; I can think of two RMP officers off the top of my head who rolled over to us on completion of their exchange.  The last one isn't that far in the past, I'm thinking less than 10 years.

Is anyone tracking when the citizenship requirement was actual instated?


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## Underway (27 May 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> As for resigning, he had "re-upped" and his bonus was $50K, which he fervently hope would come in while he was there as it would be tax free.  I told him l had signed IPS just before leaving Canada.  I explained it would take me to age 55, his eyes goggled and he asked what kind of bonus l received for that kind of commitment.  I laughed and said l got to keep my job.  He thought l was insane.  ;D



Does the US still have the up or out system for officer promotions?  Their Army Air was so messed up from that system they used the Warrant Officer position to fix it.  I'm sure the bonus issue has something to do with that.  And the fact that they were at constant war since 2001; many of the people I worked with having 5+ years of COMBAT experience.  Which from a Canadian perspective is insane during a non-mobilized situation.


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## PuckChaser (27 May 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Is anyone tracking when the citizenship requirement was actual instated?



I do remember doing a recruiting event as a young reservist in the early 2000s, and Permanent Residents were permitted to apply for the PRes. I think you may be right about it being less than a decade old requirement.

I think the bigger concern is that you can surely fill jobs that don't require a security clearance, but it already takes years for one of my Signallers to get their TS. If they were allowing recruitment of foreign nationals, I wouldn't be able to employ them right away as the minimum they would need is Secret.

Also immediately this comes to mind:


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## dimsum (27 May 2018)

Underway said:
			
		

> Does the US still have the up or out system for officer promotions?



Yes.  I'm pretty sure it's for all ranks, not just officers.


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## garb811 (27 May 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I do remember doing a recruiting event as a young reservist in the early 2000s, and Permanent Residents were permitted to apply for the PRes. I think you may be right about it being less than a decade old requirement.
> 
> I think the bigger concern is that you can surely fill jobs that don't require a security clearance, but it already takes years for one of my Signallers to get their TS. If they were allowing recruitment of foreign nationals, I wouldn't be able to employ them right away as the minimum they would need is Secret.
> 
> Also immediately this comes to mind:


Well, MPO is TS and they made the switch seamlessly.

While trying to find out, turns out the Citizenship Act actually has the following:



> *Citizenship grants: Canadian Armed Forces*
> 
> *General requirements*
> 
> ...


So perhaps they gained Citizenship via their exchange being long enough prior to switching to  us.  Prior to 2015 they only needed two years, now they need three.


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## jollyjacktar (27 May 2018)

Underway said:
			
		

> Does the US still have the up or out system for officer promotions?  Their Army Air was so messed up from that system they used the Warrant Officer position to fix it.  I'm sure the bonus issue has something to do with that.  And the fact that they were at constant war since 2001; many of the people I worked with having 5+ years of COMBAT experience.  Which from a Canadian perspective is insane during a non-mobilized situation.



I don't honestly know.  This Capt was commissioned from the ranks.  

As for the up or out, when l was living in BAT3 on my first trip in 07, l had occasion to speak with a Canadian MWO who was mentoring the ANA along with an American of similar rank. 

He related to me that his partner was told in 2000 at age 45 he was too old in grade and to get lost and retire already.  He tried to get them to reverse the decision as he really wanted to stay, but to no avail.

So, seven years later at age 52, he gets a letter from Uncle Sam informing him, his pension was hereby ceased as he was being reactivated to active duty.  He was to report to Fort such and such at this date for induction.  Failure to comply would result in 20 years to be served at Leavenworth.

When l was back in 09, l remember seeing a dottery old three hook Sgt, in ACU with an M4 strapped across his chest trying to get up the three wooden steps to the boardwalk at the Tim Hortons trailer.  He looked something you would have seen in Berlin in 45 waiting for Zukov to arrive.  I don't know what the poor old bugger knew, but he shouldn't have been there.  He made Col Potter look young.


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## tomahawk6 (28 May 2018)

The US Army doesnt allow for career captains.So officers who do not get promoted after 2 tries generally are released depending on the needs of the service.The link provided explains the process.

http://dopma-ropma.rand.org/failure-of-selection-for-promotion.html


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## dimsum (3 Jun 2018)

CBC opinion article:



> The Canadian Armed Forces recently said that in the interest of boosting ranks, it is considering changing its requirement that recruits have Canadian citizenship — a policy that many assumed to be longstanding.
> 
> In fact, the longstanding practice in our military has been to enroll non-citizens. It has long been part of our military tradition. If it had not been, I wouldn't be here writing this column...



http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/caf-citizenship-1.4687823?cmp=FB_Post_News


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## George Wallace (3 Jun 2018)

.


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## Stoker (3 Jun 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Americans do it.
> 
> France as well



In America's case they are allowed to join but their career is severely restricted until they become citizens, no overseas deployments, not allowed to have a security clearance among others.

So are we talking throwing open the doors on foreign recruiting and having a recruiting bus on the US/Quebec border? So why can't they join, be vetted while they complete basic and on completion be given some sort of citizenship course and on completion become full members of the forces and citizens?


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2018)

Underway said:
			
		

> The training system isn't recruitings problem.



While they are separate systems, to us, to new members who spent X months or years languishing in some PAT or OJT positions, the combined effect of spending long times both in the recruiting and training systems/processes have to be both individual and combined dissatisfiers.  

I think, to a certain extent anyways, there is no real benefit to enrolling more people into the CAF thru the recruiting system if the trg system can't handle the influx.  If either one takes too long, some potentially excellent people will eventually walk away and that benefits no one.  In a way it comes down to a 'quantity vs quality' issue;  are we interested in the #s of "sworn in members of the CAF [CFRG focus]" or "CAF members at TES/OFP"[Trg system focus]. 

 :2c:


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## Sub_Guy (3 Jun 2018)

We’ve been doing this for a while now.  I know a few ex-RAF ACSOs who have joined the RCAF after their MPA was turned into razor blades

However, I was told the stream for ex-RAF (or any other nation for that matter) NCMs isn’t as friendly.  I guess it’s about to change, however, it’s too late.

We (specifically AES Ops) missed the boat  and now with every respectable nation bringing the P8 online, we could potentially lose a few qualified Canadians to the RAF, RNZAF or even the RAAF.


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## dapaterson (3 Jun 2018)

Why are we looking for ACSOs overseas? Plenty of underemployed baristas in Canada we could recruit...


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## SeaKingTacco (3 Jun 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Why are we looking for ACSOs overseas? Plenty of underemployed baristas in Canada we could recruit...



Please. Barista is a skilled occupation. 

Now, if, hypothetically, we were talking about hiring Logistics Officers, well- a trip to the nearest Walmart and poaching their shelf stockers would about do the trick, right?


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## dapaterson (3 Jun 2018)

Please.

Wal-Mart expects productivity from its workers, which disqualifies them from being Log Os.


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## SeaKingTacco (3 Jun 2018)

Touché.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Why are we looking for ACSOs overseas? Plenty of underemployed baristas in Canada we could recruit...



The experience levels are somewhat different; we didn't (to my knowledge) take an 'off the street recruit from the UK', they were all RAF Officers.  The ones who've come over (to our LRP fleet) had XXXX hours experience on mainly the Nimrod but other fleets as well.  

We've already lost good folks 'back' to the RAF now that their P8 is coming close to being a reality...I don't know if I'd jump ship to the RAF but I've said numerous times I'd not hesitate to do an exchange/OUTCAN to Lossie for...the remainder of my time to CRA.  333 Sqn would be another great one (not because of the awesome hiking and outdoor stuff  :Tin-Foil-Hat.


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## dimsum (3 Jun 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> We've already lost good folks 'back' to the RAF now that their P8 is coming close to being a reality...I don't know if I'd jump ship to the RAF but I've said numerous times I'd not hesitate to do an exchange/OUTCAN to Lossie for...the remainder of my time to CRA.  333 Sqn would be another great one (not because of the awesome hiking and outdoor stuff  :Tin-Foil-Hat.



Well, Andoya is an isolated place so folks from Greenwood would feel right at home  

And Baristas need people skills, so there goes a good half of the ACSO trade there.



> We (specifically AES Ops) missed the boat  and now with every respectable nation bringing the P8 online, we could potentially lose a few qualified Canadians to the RAF, RNZAF or even the RAAF.



What do you mean "could"?  I'm guessing the reason why people aren't leaving to the RAAF is b/c they aren't looking for ACSO/AESOP at this time.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2018)

https://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/reenlist-overseas/overseas-applicants/roles/

AES Ops and ACSOs might be able to go to the RNZAF.


https://airforce.defencejobs.gov.au/joining/can-I-join/citizenship/overseas-applicants

Possibly the RAAF as well for some Officers;  not Airman vacancies at this time.


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