# RCR red sash



## 12dlewis

I had heard that the red sash worn by some memebers of the RCR(senior NCO‘s I believe), was imposed on the unit for something that went wrong and that they (RCR‘s) were to wear it for something like a hundred years. Can anyone confirm or elaborate on the story about the "Red Sash"?


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## Fishbone Jones

Gonna go out on a limb here. I‘m not really sure, but I think it‘s just some kind of "badge of office" type thing. Plenty of other infantry snr nco‘s, from different outfits, wear it also.


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## Tom Barrett

During the Boer War some RCR Pte, I‘ll call him Bloggins was twice cited for a Victoria Cross.  He was denied both times but upon hearing his courage, Queen victoria Knitted him a sash or scarf as a token.  The RCR red sash is susposedly worn in conmemoration.


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## Art Johnson

Let‘s start with some military etiquette. The name of the regiment you write of is The Royal Canadian Regiment or if you prefer The RCR. The word The is part of their title. Red sashes have been worn by Senior NCO‘s of the British Army for a long time. It is a tradition that has been passed on to the Canadian Army. I believe the subject of the Red Sash and its purpose and origin has been discussed on this forum before. To be sure it is not any dishonour to wear the Red Sash.


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## Fishbone Jones

GodOSigs,
The scarf you speak of is not the same thing (red sash). It was in recognition of valour. I believe it was won by a medic attached to The RCR. A copy of the citation is on the wall in the WO‘s&Sgt‘s Mess in Meaford with the particulars. Confirmation anyone?


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## Michael Dorosh

The Queen‘s Scarf is yellow, not red, and has nothing to do with the sash worn by NCOs in Infantry Regiments throughout the Canadian Army.

Exceptions are Rifle Regiments - NCOs there wear black cross belts.

Warrant Officers and Officers wear purple sashes, incidentally.  I think that PPCLI officers wear them around the waist; in my regiment (Calgary Highlanders) they wear them over the shoulder.

Also - sergeants in non-infantry trades serving in infantry regiments wear the sash (ie Drum Major, Pipe Major, etc.) but they wear them on the opposite shoulder than the infantry sergeants.


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## JRMACDONALD

Going to  go out on on limb here! the British army had "sashes" for a while( 300-400yrs). For some odd reason we(theCanadians) picked them up(something to do with our history!) NO DISHONOR! DLEWIS! you, got this INFO from some one ,who wasn‘t from theRCR!!!!
In the RCR ,SGTs+WOs wear a red sash, MWOs wear scarlet. ( oh yeah the amount of "tassels‘have NOTHING  to do withBattle Honours.)


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## Fishbone Jones

Mike D,
There must be other versions of a Queen‘s scarf. The two replicas I‘ve seen, Meaford and museum, are both similar in colour to the ribbon on the VC.


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## Michael Dorosh

My reference is WE STAND ON GUARD , colour photo p. 63 - photo source is the Canadian War Museum.  It is possible they have this wrong and have photographed the wrong scarf, since the book gives no details as to colour - just that the scarf was knitted by hand and bears a royal cipher.  In the photo in the book, no cipher is visible...but it is folder and laying on a flat surface.  Curious...


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## Fishbone Jones

Mike,
Here‘s the web site for this subject at the Canadian War Museum. From the sounds of it there were only eight made and only one went to a Canadian. Unfortunately, nothing about the colour, still looking and digging though. There should be someone he from The RCR that can confirm the colour. By the by this site cleared up the misconceptions I had re: the scarf as a decoration, should put to rest some old wives tales for anyone interested in looking.
http://www.museedelaguerre.ca/cwm/saw/person/thomps_e.html

Found this site with a photo of the scarf an another writeup, hard to tell the colour in the picture, almost looks yellow, but when I brought it into a photo editing program it identified the prominent colour as red with green and blue undertones= shade of purple. Here‘s the site.
http://www.camerons.ca/History/heros.htm


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## JRMACDONALD

my $2.00 worth( inflation, you know!)
Queens scarf is a "heavy/darker "shade of yellow. gold, perhaps?
Mike D. your officers sashes are NOT purple! (red or scarlet, you know!)


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## McG

There was an article on the history of the sash in Canadian Infantry regiments in the last edition of the Maple Leaf.  Most of its points have already been rasied, but not the origin of the sash.  According to the article, the sash was issued to assist officers and Sr NCO‘s to remove injured from the battle field.  Origionally it was worn according to user preference, but with time standards were developed (and regularly changed).  Today, the only ones who were the sash around their wastes (that I know of) are officers and CWOs of the PPCLI; all others wear the sash over their shoulder.


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## JRMACDONALD

McG- from London ,huh!? Haven‘t seen too many RCR RSMs on parade, have you?


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## fusilier

I know of two reserve units that wear the khaki lanyard as well.  MCpl and above of course.  My regiment the Princess Louise Fusiliers in Halifax recently started wearing them.  The Royal Newfoundland Regiment (1st Battalion, I‘m not sure about 2nd Battalion though).


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## Gordon Angus Mackinlay

Ladies and Gentlemen,

A friend of mine emailed me this discussion.
The Infantry Scarlet (not red, purple or whatever colour) Sash is common to all Armies of the British Commonwealth, to be worn by Warrant Officers and Senior NCOs (ie Canadian Sgts, WO, MWOs, but, not CWOs) ie Sgts, Staff Sgts (commonly known in infantry as Colour Sgts), Warrant Officers Class Two, but not Warrant Officers Class One (such as Canada had pre unification).

In the dress regulations (I cannot remember the PC canadian designation) of the CFs, the Scarlet Sash is so authorised.  The Canadian guards recently  in London, such as the PPCLI SNCOs wore such with the Green Uniform.  It has always been authorised for the Canadian Army since 1867 with the creation of the Militia Act.

Warrant Officer Class One (your CWO) holding the appointment of RSM wears the waist belt sword equipment, with the infantry pattern sword, again this is common to all Commonwealth Armies.  Those WOIs not holding the appointment of RSM wear a Sam Browne belt equipment, I‘m not such what CWO with a Canadian inf bn wears (I don‘t think there is such infantry creatures in a modern Can Inf bn)

In regard to The Queens Scarf, this was personal award to men of the British and Dominion Armies for the Anglo-Boer War.  She knitted them in  ‘honey‘ coloured high grade wool, with her personal cypher within.  I have examined four of them over the years, they are a very high quality item.  The receipients were all given them for gallantry of the highest degree, and believe it or not the receipeints were all extremely pleased and satified with the award!!!

Yours Jock in Sydney, Australia


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## Michael OLeary

Jock, thanks for that concise summary.

The issue of the "meaning" of regimental lanyards/whistle cords continue to circulate like the urban nyths they are. Invariably they are offered in good faith, but it is always a vague anecdotal reference that "somebody heard somebody heard." Notably these anecdotes never include details (because they‘ve never been passed along), not even something so vague as to what war they refer.  And such items never standup to critical examination.

Idiosyncrasies of regimental dress (lanyards, button designs, etc.) as well as other items of regimental custom (marchpasts, etc., and  even selection of battle honours) were often the purview of the controlling influences within Regimental senates at the time of their adoption.  While many aspects have historical precursors, such as the infantry red sash, others have a far less official provenance. 

Mike O‘Leary

The Regimental Rogue


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## Art Johnson

Mike, just a comment on your remark about Battle Honours. The only choice the Regiment has is which 10 will be emblazoned on their colours. The decision on which Battle Honours a unit is entitled to is made by a committee in Ottawa.

Pro Patria


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## Gordon Angus Mackinlay

Many thanks for the comments Mr O‘Leary, but, I am afraid that the message got somewhat jumbled in comparison with my original,  My overeducated sons inform me it is just one of the idosycies of the net!!!!

The comments about urban myths are very true, and you can see it on many of these discussion lists, such as King‘s Corporal, "the Artillery wears the white lanyard for cowardice", saluting is a sign of servitute etc etc.

Being someone who spent the majority of his army life attached to infantry (a medic) before joining the RAAF, I have always been exposed to regimental customs.  These take the form of many excentricities, ranging from the Corporals Mess of the 1st Bn Grenadier Gds having a formal dinner in memorary of a Cpl VC winner in WWII, to the new COs of the 1st Bn Royal Australian Regiment on his being dined in to the Sgts & WOs Mess,  being drilled by the RQMS with a spade GS in 1950‘s era rifle drill!   To the calling of the Roll and marching of the officers of the CAR to the Senior NCOs mess for Xmas drinks by the RSM.

All of these bizarre things to a civilian mind, establish that strange thing espri de corps,after all what is more strange than a group of men (and now women) whose basic purpose in life is to take life.

The bizarre thing in this day and age is however, how those who are now the young soldiers and future leaders feel about such items as dress.  Over recent years I have (more to keep myself amused than anything else) conducted informal surveys of junior servicemen whilst in the Former Yugoslavia, on such things as dress distinctions, customs etc.  These being in the main Brits/NZs/Canadians , whilst back at home Australians and more NZs.

The most common response being that they liked being able to wear a smart uniform, with insignia that is appropriate to and identifies their regiment.  Regimental customs being important, because it makes them feel special and belonging to something worthwhile.  They may winge and moan about such things,but, what was a common response, was it was their right to do so.

Interestingly, when discussing this with German Heer personnel, they were avid for the introduction of such items of dress, and the creation of a regimental system.  In discussion their comments were that the French have this is a very "formidable manner", but, the British Commonwealth people do it best???

In Australia dress has become a symbol of disconcent.  The slouch hat was forced on everyone to wear at all times, the RAR had to give up its green beret to wear the slouch hat, armoured corps the same with the black beret - having to wear the slouch hat, etc, they can of course wear the black beret in AFVs.  

The loss of shoulder titles, having to wear the insignia of the Australian Imperial Force, to wit the Rising Sun Cap badge, buttons etc, and the wearing of colour cloth patches, from AIF units.  The regular army has no direct link with the AIF, the old soldiers of the 1950-90s used to sneer at the Regular Army. We having built up our own tradition in Korea/Malaya/Borneo/ SVN/East Timor/peace keeping .  Leaves a lot of people with a sense of not belonging.

In many ways these changes are similar to what occurred in the CAF in the early 1970‘s, which such dress changes.  One such change which has many angry has been the move of Warrant Officer insignia from the lower fore arm to the mid upper arm "this to bring us in line with the US military"!!!!!!!!!!!

A complex subject.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney


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## Michael OLeary

Art, regarding the selection of Battle Honours by the regiments, the following is excerpted from ‘33-1 Battle Honours - The Second World War, Part "A" Supplement to Canadian Army Orders, 10 Sep 1956"

"Selection of Honours
     26.  Each armoured or infantry regiment concerned will form a regimental honours committee of not less than five members .....
     27.  The regimental committee will:
(a)  consider the draft regimental list of honours and claim the award of those considered appropriate;
(b) initiate a claim for any honour not included in the list of operations below or in the draft regimental list to which the regiment considers it has an entitlement. Each claim thus submitted will have to be accompanied by strong supporting evidence;
(c) select from the full list of honours claimed for award, up to ten hanours to be emblazoned on the colours or appointments;
(d) forward claims and selections through the usual channels to Army Headquarters."

As you can see from this text, while the Army prepared draft lists of Battle Honours for regiments, it was the responsibility of each regiment to ratify those selections or to submit changes/corrections as determined by the regimental committee.

It was this regimental role in the pursuing of battle honours that saw the Princess Louise Fusiliers support and receive the honour ARNHEN ‘45 last year.

Pro Patria

Mike
The Regimental Rogue


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## Art Johnson

Mike you are absolutely right. I‘ll have to plead a "Seniors Moment" as similar information as what you quoted was within arms reach when I typed my last post. My apologies.


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## the patriot

Hello All,

The tradition of the Red Sash indicates the bond between the Snr. NCO‘s and their soldiers.   There are 88 knots at the end of the sash.  In battle, the CSM would gather up his      soldiers and tie off a knot on his sash.  Thus keeping count of the number of      soldiers.  As for the colour of the sash being red, that obviously is the colour of  blood.  Traditionally the sash was white before entering combat.  When the CSM picked up his      men and carried them over his shoulder, their blood would stain his sash.  On parade, this tradition and bond is noted by the Snr. NCO‘s wearing the red sash.  In closing, it is an honour to wear it!!!  Not a dishonour.

-the patriot-


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Gordon Angus Mackinlay:
> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> In the dress regulations (I cannot remember the PC canadian designation)



We call them dress regulations, thanks.



> Warrant Officer Class One (your CWO) holding the appointment of RSM wears the waist belt sword equipment, with the infantry pattern sword, again this is common to all Commonwealth Armies.  Those WOIs not holding the appointment of RSM wear a Sam Browne belt equipment, I‘m not such what CWO with a Canadian inf bn wears (I don‘t think there is such infantry creatures in a modern Can Inf bn)



Your last sentence is confusing.  The RSM of a Canadian infantry battalion is indeed a CWO - but we haven‘t worn Sam Browne belts since unification.  Also, Highland regiments wear claymores (clay beaghs (sp?), to be technical, but universally called a claymore) - and in my regiment, the RSM does wear a scarlet sash - over his shoulder - but only in ceremonial dress.  For walking out dress, he does not.  In the Queen‘s Own Cameron Highlanders in Winnipeg, the Pipe Major also wears a "scarlet" sash, even in Walking Out Dress - or at least did so when Mikey Coutts was running the band.  Our Pipe Major never only wears the sash in ceremonial dress (even when ranked as CWO) because "that‘s what the RSM does."

Sergeants wear a distinctly red coloured sash, as distinct from warrant officers and officers who wear scarlet - call it what you want, but it looks maroon or purple to me.


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## PRL ER NO

About the Infantry "Red Sash"

Worn by senior NCO's , Sgt and above, from right shoulder down to left hip.
Worn by junior Officer's, 2Lt,Lt and Capt, from left shoulder down to right hip.

As was taught to me, at a time when I was a young Sgt, many years ago.   The Sashes were first white, in the days of the British "Thin Red Line" and all.   The "White" sashes were stained "Red" with the blood on the soliders on the battle field.   The litters of the wounded were placed and held in the knot at the hip of the NCO's, on the right of the litter, and Officers, on the left of the litter.

Myth, I think not.
Just another story, I believe to be true.


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## PRL ER NO

Follow-up related to the "Queen's Scarf".  Queen Victoria crocheted with her own hands 8 scarves at the the time of the South African War.  They were awarded to private soliders or NCO's.  4 of the scarves were given to British, one each to South African, Australian, New Zealander and a Canadian.  The Canadian solider was Pte Richard Rowland Thompson, a medical orderly.

The story : http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/news_pubs/pdf/engraph/OpCel_100th_Anniversary_e.pdf

A copy of the scarf is at the CFMSS in Borden and the real scraf is in the War Museum


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## marshall sl

Sgts wear a Scarlett Sash, Wo.s and Officers are Crimson


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## pbi

There sure are a lot of opinions floating around here. Here's my two cents worth:

In the PPCLI Infantry (031) Sgts wear a red shoulder sash with DEUs. Other MOCs(non-031) in the battalion do not wear the sash. Inf MWOs in the PPCLI wear the maroon shoulder sash. Officers(and the RSM) wear a maroon sword sash around the waist with DEU. The NCO/WO shoulder sash and the Officers' sword sash may have had a common origin but they are today completely different items with only a limited resemblance. I have worn all three.

The sash for senior NCOs/Officers in line Infantry (as opposed to Rifles) has only one credible theory of origin that I know of. This is the theory that dates back to the Marlburian period during which both officers and Sgts carried pikes rather than muskets. This pike (sometimes caled a spontoon, halberd, etc.) was quite heavy and carrying it on the field of battle was a pain. As a result (the theory goes), the sash was worn from one shoulder to the waist, with a large knot tied in it. The haft of the pike was slid through the knot and thus given some additional support (and freeing up one hand for short periods). Later, the officers in the British Army stopped carrying the pike, but the practice persisted amongst Sgts right through the Napoleonic Wars (except for Rifles). Sometime after that it ceased, except for the Sgts cane which, I have read, is a vestigial remnant of the practice of Sgts carrying a pike.

While the sashes might very well have been useful to carry casualties, we should stop for a moment and ask ourselves just who it was that was carrying casualties about on the battlefield during the time periods in question. Certainly not officers or Sgts. Most likely common soldiers, if in fact casualties got picked up at all: prior to the Napoleonic Wars I think you will find that most wounded just lay in the mud until they crawled away, died of blood loss or were murdered by scavengers. I think that any use of the sash to carry the wounded was incidental: where would you get five or six officers or sgts together to drag the wounded about? Wouldn't they have been somewhat busy?

As far as I can tell (and I certainly defer to our resident SME's here...) the sash has always been scarlet, or red, or some variation of that. I have never heard of a white "sash": I think that this is possibly a confusion with the white pipeclayed leather crossbelts that were worn by most British Infantry Regiments up until pretty late in the 19th century.

I have never heard of the practice of using the knots on the sash to count casualties in a company, although I suppose this is possible. What if there were more casualties than knots?

I think we might want to heed the advice of  Mike O'Leary and beware of military "urban myths". Cheers.


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## Michael Dorosh

Some additions to pbi's comments.

Non-combat arms sergeants wear the sash reversed, at least in our unit - the pipe major and drum major, for example, wear the sash over the left shoulder instead of the right.

The pike theory is interesting; as an aside, in the German Army, for at least the last 60 years, the Company First Sergeant ("Hauptfeldwebel" or what we call a Company Sergeant Major) was nicknamed "der Spiess" which translates as "The Spear".  This was a reference to 1700's era NCOs carrying pike-like weapons into battle.


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## pbi

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The pike theory is interesting; as an aside, in the German Army, for at least the last 60 years, the Company First Sergeant ("Hauptfeldwebel" or what we call a Company Sergeant Major) was nicknamed "der Spiess" which translates as "The Spear".   This was a reference to 1700's era NCOs carrying pike-like weapons into battle.



Mike: I asked one of the Germans in Afgh about "_Der Spiess_": he said it translates more closely to "_the Spike_" (as in "nail"). Actually, the more common modern German term for the CSM is "_Mother of The Company_", which as far as I can see is far more in keeping with the nature of the Bundes Heer today. Cheers.


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## Michael Dorosh

pbi said:
			
		

> Mike: I asked one of the Germans in Afgh about "_Der Spiess_": he said it translates more closely to "_the Spike_" (as in "nail"). Actually, the more common modern German term for the CSM is "_Mother of The Company_", which as far as I can see is far more in keeping with the nature of the Bundes Heer today. Cheers.



During WW II,  "die Mutter die Kompanie" and "der Spiess" were used concurrently. I've never seen Spiess translated into English as Spike, but of course, I would never argue with an actual German about his own language.

Actually, that's not true, I have - and fondly recall that I won an argument with a German scholar who didn't know that in the Waffen SS, soldiers did not use the prefix "Herr" when addressing their superiors.  Does the Bundesheer still do that?


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## pbi

> Actually, that's not true, I have - and fondly recall that I won an argument with a German scholar who didn't know that in the Waffen SS, soldiers did not use the prefix "Herr" when addressing their superiors.  Does the Bundesheer still do that?



It seems to vary. Officers appear to use "Herr" when speaking to a superior ( _Herr Oberstleutnant _ ) but I can't say how widespread the custom is. I'll ask my boss back in Kabul: he is a German LCol. You could also contact "Teddy Ruxpin" on this site: he works in KMNB which has a German commander and a large number of Germans in its staff. There is also a German BG in the same camp as him. Cheers.


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## Steel Badger

Evening All

Thoughts on Sashes and their colours etc.

It appears to have been common place for soldiers in the late or high middle ages to wear sashes around the waists of their armor to indicate rank on the battle-field. Usually the Sergeants , Ensigns, captains and captains-General were so accoutred. The colour of sash seems to have been aligned with national origin. Scarlett for the English, Orange for the Dutch, Blue and/or White for the French etc etc.

It appears that the sash was once worn around the waist of the cuirass (breast and backplate) or other body armour. With the passing of armour and the adoption of the buff coat, the sash appears to have migrated to a shoulder slung position.

I have somewhere a copy of a regulation issued about 1815 which indicates that Sergeants and Officers (Save those in Highland regiments) would now wear the sash around the waist... and in the case of sergeants to have a stripe of their Regiments facing colour in the centre of of the sash running lengthwise.

I believe that Sergeant's Sashes changed position sometime after the Indian Mutiny as I have contemporary prints showing sergeants wearing sashes from the shoulder while the officers retain the waist sash. (Very like the one my father wore as an officer in the1950's in the RCA and then RCASC)

I agree with Mike O'Leary that we must be wary of myths, and I feel that the long-ago inventor of the one about sashes's being red from 
use as "Stretchers, Field Exiedient, MK I, Sergeants for the use of" knew neither history or Sergeant's very well.

"Aye Captain,  Ah'll take Ensign Campbell away the aid post. If ye would be kind enough to ensure Private MacKenize keeps dressed off, an tak' me half pike whilst I reemove ma pack , an' belt an aw so I can remove ma wee sashie!" ;D

I would like to further contribute to the realm of military myth by sharing a rather ingenious one about the origins of the Glengarry:

Apparently, the glen was created as a permanent memorial to the Battle of Balaclava. The sharp side of the cap represent the ridge on which the 93rd stood firm. The tourie represents the blood spilled by the Scot's muskets, and the tails represent the road running down to the harbour. The chief perpatrator of the tale further informed his eager listener's that the famed "double dice" represented the thin red line; the three ranks the 93rd had been in during the action.
Gentle critcism of his explanation did not shift his conviction; nor did actual photos of the 93rd wearing the Double Dice and Glens (in undress) in the Crimea. Apparently all of our accoutrements must have deep symbolic meaning. (If this is so, why has no-one every explained to me the historical significance of the 64 pattern rain-coat?  >   )

My RSM told me to research the subject. The closest thing to a history for the Glen that i could find was as follows. The young Laird of Glen Garry (variously entitled Laird Glengarry), upon joining the Army and/or rising to the dizzy height of Colonel, turned up his nose at the regulation headress of the day; the "kilmarnock" bonnet. Being a young rakish officer (some accounts hold him to be a Colonel of a regiment); he had the Bonnet cut, shaped and resewn onto a chapeau he considered far more striking and fashionable!  
This event is echoed time and again by  many,many recorded incidents of military dress mania for better looking ceremonial kit and " crimes against dress regs" commited by young subbies in the name of what looks "Cool.". 
For example, the regulation stating that the Officer's Swords of the 1st Life Guards were to be 1/2" longer than those of the junior Second Life guards or the ongoing race for "Most Impressive Sporran"; a title currently held by the Argyll "Family" of Regiments whose Badger Head Sporrans caused Perry Mason, the RSM of the Grenadier Guards (In 94) to remark: "I know you highlanders have outlandish kit, but what the ^*&* is THAT?"

All this confirms my long held suspicions that the closer one comes to Colonel or RSM the madder one must become




Steel Badger


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## Steel Badger

The title "Der Spiess" may also have stemmed from the German fascination with Army of Rome. The Chief Centurion of a particular legion was known as the Primus Pilus (First Spear) and was the penultimate advisor to the republican General or Imperial legat who commanded the legion. He was also the chief disciplinarian and mother to the soldiers. A case can be made for the German's using the title "der Spiess" to convey the dignity and responsibility held by Legion's top Centurion to their Feldwebeln.


"Hurray, My degree has a use at last!"



Steel Badger


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## Michael Dorosh

A word to the wise Steel Badger.  Sometimes a new poster comes along and will post such high quality stuff in his first half dozen posts, that the regulars just kind of sit back with a stunned "wow" and wait anxiously for him to post more.  When this happens, said newbie sometimes feels like he had done something wrong or has been ignored and decides the place isn't for him.

Which is a tragedy, since what really happened was that he was so eloquent and entertaining, no one really wanted to follow along after.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I just want to way "wow" rather than sit back in stunned silence, lest you decide to disappear from want of a response...


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## Tpr.Orange

wow


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## pbi

> The title "Der Spiess" may also have stemmed from the German fascination with Army of Rome



This is very interesting. While I know that the Fascist Italian regime blatantly emulated some aspects of "its" Roman "heritage", I had never heard that the Germans shared this interest too. Where did this show up in their traditions and practices? Cheers.


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## Steel Badger

Far as I know the Deutschers have always been mad for Rome..prolly since right after Arminius knocked out Legio's XVII, XVIII, and XVIIII (XVIX as you prefer)

They (those Crazy Germans) have reconstructed the Legionary Fortress at Mogonticum (Mainz) and various other sites. They consider that sort of thing national heritage stuff.

I remember being told that the fiat plant just outside LAHR was built on an old marching camp and part of the lease involved excavating the camp upon termination of said lease.

The "Black gate" in Trier is only one of many many preserved Roman sites.

Interestingly enough, I remember from my University days that contemplating the sheer number of volumes put out by Germans on Roman Military History was enough to send me straight to the pub for several pints of muscle relaxant.Thank God i never tried to read em....in "Technical German" no less!

As well, the whole 2nd / 3rd Reich thing?

Reich Mark I   >>>>  All things roman

Reich Mark II >>>> All things Holy Roman and suspiciously German.

Reich Mark III  >>> A heid-case Austrain Corporal and his wierd, transvestite Air-force Chum have distasteful panzerkampfwagen adventures across Europe.


As to when?  About 1500+/-   A good (if dry) reference work is War and Society in Renaissance Europe 1450-1620 by JR Hale (John Hopkins Univ Press 1985)

As the "professional" militaries began to develop in europe.....those who could read turned to Tacitus and the Ladz fer practical advice about being awful to one another.

The Military Experience in the Age of Reason by Christopher Duffy (Wordsworth Military Library 1998) also has a lot to say about the adoption of "Roman Ideas" into the Prussian Military.

On der Spiess

German Army Uniforms and Insignia 33-45 (brian L Davis) Arms and Armour Press indicates that Der Spiess was a Hauptfeldwebel acting in a posn Similar to that of a British RSM.  The parrallel with the Primus Pilus seems obvious.

The role of the Spiess is spelled out in detail on LANDSER (the German Army in WW2), a companion site to Mike Dorosh's excellent CANUCK.
http://www.deutschesoldaten.com/

Left hand bar , clik on Hautfeldwebel


Steel Badger


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## Michael Dorosh

Okay, now you're plugging my site, I think you're just sucking up now. 

Be careful with Davis, though; he's not really correct if he compares the Spiess to an RSM; the Germans had no battalion sergeants major, rather, each company had a Spiess with no counterpart at battalion HQ.


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## Steel Badger

YAY   Burn No. 1

Actually i was quoting a Book (German Army uniforms etc) whichs uses the RSM as an equilent. I thinkwhat i was trying to do was get across the sense that a lot of the RSM's duties are / conducted by der Spiess. I Think.

You are, in fact, quite correct however. I have offered false data.

As penance I shall now consume Guiness.


As fer sucking up..
....naaaaahhh

But you ARE the guy who made it possible fer my CMBO Brits to become Argylls.


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## Horse_Soldier

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> As well, the whole 2nd / 3rd Reich thing?
> 
> Reich Mark I     >>>>   All things roman
> 
> Reich Mark II >>>> All things Holy Roman and suspiciously German.
> 
> Reich Mark III   >>> A heid-case Austrain Corporal and his wierd, transvestite Air-force Chum have distasteful panzerkampfwagen adventures across Europe.



I believe you have your Reichs a bit off -

The 1st Reich was the Holy Roman Empire
The 2nd Reich was the one proclaimed by Kaiser Wilhelm 1st at Versailles in 1871 when, after kicking French ass, Otto von Bismarck had him crowned (before that, he was merely King of Prussia) - it came crashing down in flames in November of 1918
The 3rd Reich, was, of course the one started by the dude with the funny mustache and the delusions of grandeur who set Europe aflame


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## Steel Badger

OK, That does it....no more staying up after a night shift...

It appears to play havoc with my spelling and memory....LOL

You are, of course, quite correct.


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## Rick Goebel

I have to say, in support of marshall sl, and with all due respect to Michael Dorosh that the colour of sash for officers is crimson and not purple.

Further, the Pipe Major? and Drum Major (as well as the RSM) of highland units wear sashes over the left shoulder rather than the right because they dress as officers rather than as NCMs and because the Pipes and Drums of highland units have often been treated more as infantry than as other tradesmen.   Officers of highland units wear sashes over their left shoulders so it doesn't interfere with their claymores (swords) worn slung on crossbelts over their right shoulders.   Non-highland officers wear swords slung on waist belts covered by sashes at the waist.

If a non-infantry NCO of the Calgary Highlanders (other than the above-mentioned appointments) ever wore a scarlet or crimson sash over the left shoulder (or the right), he or she was improperly dressed.

I put a ? after Pipe Major in the above since I don't actually recall a Pipe Major wearing a sword.   But then I'm getting old.


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## Steel Badger

I support Ricks point

And since we are pointing out terms of reference......What the army calls a clamore is a std inf pttn officers sword wi' a basket hilt...

Not a true Claiydmhor.....


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## Michael Dorosh

Rick Goebel said:
			
		

> I have to say, in support of marshall sl, and with all due respect to Michael Dorosh that the colour of sash for officers is crimson and not purple.
> 
> Further, the Pipe Major? and Drum Major (as well as the RSM) of highland units wear sashes over the left shoulder rather than the right because they dress as officers rather than as NCMs and because the Pipes and Drums of highland units have often been treated more as infantry than as other tradesmen.  Officers of highland units wear sashes over their left shoulders so it doesn't interfere with their claymores (swords) worn slung on crossbelts over their right shoulders.  Non-highland officers wear swords slung on waist belts covered by sashes at the waist.
> 
> If a non-infantry NCO of the Calgary Highlanders (other than the above-mentioned appointments) ever wore a scarlet or crimson sash over the left shoulder (or the right), he or she was improperly dressed.
> 
> I put a ? after Pipe Major in the above since I don't actually recall a Pipe Major wearing a sword.  But then I'm getting old.



The PM did wear a sword on rare occasions when in ceremonial dress.   Thank you, however, for the clarification on the sash details.   I suspect the dress regs are getting a bit murky; the PM and DM wear an officers sash in full dress, but appear to wear Sgt/WO sashes in DEUs, but perhaps I am getting old as well.

http://www.calgaryhighlanderpipeband.ca/images/thefinger.jpeg

This is a picture of the Drum Sergeant wearing the red sash.

http://www.calgaryhighlanderpipeband.ca/images/drumheller.jpeg

The DM appears to be wearing the WO sash rather than the officer sash.

http://www.calgaryhighlanderpipeband.ca/images/dcorps1.JPG

Oh, and just to mix things up, here is the same Drum Sergeant wearing the red sash over the opposite soldier than he is wearing it in picture one....


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## Rick Goebel

Once upon a time, I was DCO of the Calgary Highlanders sitting at dinner beside the 2i/c of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (not "of C").  He at one point asked me if we had ever had all of our officers in the same place at the same time dressed the same.  I said "no", and he said "good, neither have we".  This illustrates the problem of dress in a highland unit.

I sometimes think that the most absurd notion I have ever come across was an attempt in the early nineties by the CF to codify and standardize the dress of guards, highland and rifle regiments of the militia.  They actually hired a number of Class B or C reserve Majors and Lieutenant Colonels to work on this in Ottawa for a year.  I won't even comment on my opinion of anyone who would even take a job like this.  At the end, however, they produced a new set of dress regulations and the guards, highland and rifle regiments made rude gestures and just carried on with what they had always done.

Imposing order on the general dress of guards, highland and rifle regiments, however, is child's play compared to doing it for Pipes and Drums.  Michael Dorosh's pictures make this point clearly.

I was once told by an older and wiser officer (RCR no less) that "officers don't have uniforms, they have ensembles".  This is even more true of pipers and drummers.

Worse yet, the Drum Sergeant pictured is a psychologist.


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## Michael Dorosh

A psychologist, and, I am pleased to point out, a former commissioned officer, but I edited that out of my original post....


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## Rick Goebel

Michael Dorosh wrote:

"A psychologist, and, I am pleased to point out, a former commissioned officer, but I edited that out of my original post....".

I had actually forgotten that and, yes, it does explain a lot.


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## pbi

Rick Goebel: I agree with you. The Army has better things to do than worry about the nuances of Regimental dress items, like concentrating on field clothing and equipment. IMHO this dress business is best left to Regiments themselves. What different does it make if Regtl dress items vary from one Highland unit to another? Isn't that the point of "Regimental" distinctions in the first place? Cheers.


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## Steel Badger

PBI...I agree completely....


I would go one step further and argue that if Regimental tradition/custom of dress don't interfere with field ops...leave em alone...

Regimental/Corps distinctions = pride in unit=pride in self=enhanced performance......


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## Black Watch

Thoses red sashes are worn by sgts and above for one thing:
In brittish army, long time ago, white pieces of repo were worn by brittish nco's to pull the wounded soldiers of battle, nothing else. After time, the rope was, of course, getting socked with blood. That's when the rope gat replaced by a red whool sash to do the same job (the sash was also more comfortable). In Canadian army, the scarlet sash is still worn by snr nco's as a tradition.


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## Acorn

Black Watch said:
			
		

> Thoses red sashes are worn by sgts and above for one thing:
> In brittish army, long time ago, white pieces of repo were worn by brittish nco's to pull the wounded soldiers of battle, nothing else. After time, the rope was, of course, getting socked with blood. That's when the rope gat replaced by a red whool sash to do the same job (the sash was also more comfortable). In Canadian army, the scarlet sash is still worn by snr nco's as a tradition.



Check the sticky on myths etc., or read far enough down the thread to see that your version is incorrect.

Acorn


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## CH1

Oh well, have to add my 2 cents.

I have 2 red sashes, 1 from father (major), the other from an Colenol (old friend).  From what I was told the officer's scarlett? (read crimson?) was the replacement for when it was not appropriate to wear sam browne & sword.  The colour is to remind us of the blood of the subordinates that have come before, & there fore to remind us of our responsibilities toward them.

I've heard these variations when I was a Sgt also, along with the aforementioned.

It has piqued my interest & I'll try to find some references.

I think we all agree that it is an honour that carries responsibility with it.

Cheers


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## Acorn

Sashes were badges of rank in the 16th/17thC, and that is where the current use derives from. It's as simple as that, no mystical significance or battlefield utility at all. Colours and methods of wear developed with tradition.

acorn


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## Art Johnson

I wish that you people would quote a source for your information. An Army Order number would be nice.


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## Steel Badger

Art

There is another thread in Mil History that addresses the issue of the sash......and if I remember correctly there were some Army Orders mentioned.

I can give referrences to the practice of European militaries in the 16/17th century as well as the late middle ages as regards to the use of the sash as a mark of rank on the battlefield as well as to the colours each nation used in preference...

I am also still trying to dig up the ref i had as regards to Infantry Sr NCO sashes carrying a stripe of the facing colour of the regiment in the post Waterloo to early 19th C period.

SB


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## Art Johnson

My source for the following information is "MILITARY CUSTOMS" written by Maj. T.J. Edwards M.B.E. F.R. Hist. S. and published by Gale and Polden Ltd. in 1954. Maj Edwards was a Member of the Society for Army Historical Research and has written a number of books about the British Army.
Chapter VI of his book deals with Sashes, it is too long for me and my arthritic hands to reproduce in its entirety but I will quote some pertinent extracts.

Page 106- "The custom of wearing sashes, originally as an article for a practical purpose but which developed into a sign of rank, is fairly ancient in England. As far back as the seventeenth century the sash was worn either round the waist or over a shoulder, falling to the opposite side."

"The original purpose of the sash was for carrying of a wounded officer off the field, to which end they were usually made of silk, being strong as well as light, and full enough to enclose the human form."

Page 107- "Clifford Walton in his "History of the British Army, 1600 - 1700" states that "The Sash was worn by all officers from the General down to the Serjeant, whether Horse, Foot or Dragoons."

"The private troopers of Horse also wore sashes, the only exception to the general colour being The Fourth Dragoon Guards, whose sashes were white. Pikemen in Foot Regiments were similarly distinguished by sashes, but of white worsted with a coloured fringe."

Page 108- "The Royal Warrant for Clothing of 19th December, 1768, gave more precise detail in regard to this matter," (there follows a page of descriptions and methods of wearing from 1768 to 1845)

SB, you are correct about the Sr NCO sashes with the stripe of the facing colour of the regiment. This was discontinued in 1845 as it was found that the colours tended to run when they got wet.


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## Steel Badger

Sashes as a rank indicator have been around for a long time. They orignated in the ancient world as badges of rank and battlefield identifiers.

Senior Roman Officers (Tribunes and up in the Late Republican to Imperial periods) wore a sash knotted in a distinct fashion around the waist of their muscled cuirass (body armour). Althought the colour of this item is open to debate, it's existance is not, having been well illustrated on burial stelae (statuary) as well as period coinage and monuments. (The altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus and Trajan's column)
>>Imperial Rome at War Windrow and McBride, Concord Publications. 1996 pp. 14-15
>>The Roman Army from Caeser to Trajan 1984 (Osprey MAA 46)  by M. Simkins PP. 36-7
>>The Complete Roman Army, A. Goldsworthy, Thames and Hudson 2003 pp. 44-45, 61
>>Warrior's of Rome. M. Simkins, 1992 Blandford p.80-81

The picture is of a re-enactor from the Ermine Street Guard in Britain dressed as a Senior Officer and armed with the Parazonium, the senior officer's side arm.

It has also been suggested that this sash was also worn by Centurion's during the 1st to 3rd century AD. Cetainly some evidence has been introduced to suggest that senior Centurions of  Auxhiliary Cohort's in Britain did wear the sash as well as a mark of rank.(there is no firm evidence that Legionary Centurions followed this practice.)


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## a_majoor

See how deep the roots of the RCR _really_ are?  ;D


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## Steel Badger

Legio II Minutiae

Raised in 1 Ad by the Emperor Augutus

Disbanded by Handrian for trying to paint his pecious wall blue, black and yellow!

 >


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## BernDawg

Gentlemen this is an absolutley fascinating thread.   I have read it from the top and am enthralled with the wealth of information out there.   There is certainly no doubt as to the origins of the sash as an indicator of rank and/or status in almost all armies of the old world.
        I thought I would throw this in to further the lines of discussion.   I was told, sometime, in my early career that the sash, in it's current form, was red or scarlett iin rememberance of the "thin red line" of infantry at Balaclava and thus only worn by the infantry units in the commonwealth.   To this day I have heard no other explanation of the sash or colour.   The most astonishing of which would be the carrying of wounded off the field by Officers and Snr NCOs.(Isn't that what the band was for?)   I believe, even then, they would feel compelled to stay in the fray and conduct the battle to the best of their abillity.
Thanks.


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## Steel Badger

The colour issue is a very simple thing indeed......

Colour of sash was chosen based based on preferrence, (either nationally or sometimes by corps as in the sky blue sashes of the RAF regiment.) The English tended towards red or scarlet, much as the French preferred Grey or Blue.
(The rank stripes of the tunicae of Roman Tribunes or Legates was "Imperial " Purple.....while Roman Armour from the Republic to the late Empire was most often Tinned to give a silvery "Flash" appearence."

Christopher Duffy's book "Warfare in the Age of Reason" (Wordsworth 1987)  covers the issue in greater detail.

As to the "Thin Red Line", I believe you have heard one of the many many "truths" out there about why soldiers do or wear certain things...check out the great thread by Mike O'leary.

As far as battlefield evac , I think it stems from a reference to the fact that British officers who became casualties were often evaced to the rear using their own sash (given its volume) as an aid. Certainly this would have only been possible during the period when Officers wore shoulder sashes similar to those worn by Officers of Highland Units today. When the waist sashes (of different material and construction) were introduced, such a feat would not have been possible.....

As far as Senior NCOs, during the period  that most stories indicate the "sash" was used to evac troops, Senior Ncos wore shoulder sashes and could not easily remove them to evac cas. In any event , Senior NCO's fell in to the rear of the battle line and kept the ranks closed up, they would noit have had time to evac.

('Old on Private Bloggins, Ol' Sarge 'ull get ya to the rear....but first let me tak off me crossbelts an canteen and pack...oh and give me half pike to yer mate so he can keep the files closed...)


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## Acorn

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> As far as battlefield evac , I think it stems from a reference to the fact that British officers who became casualties were often evaced to the rear using their own sash (given its volume) as an aid. Certainly this would have only been possible during the period when Officers wore shoulder sashes similar to those worn by Officers of Highland Units today. When the waist sashes (of different material and construction) were introduced, such a feat would not have been possible.....



I would also suspect that the use of the sash as an evac aid was incidental, not by design, much as we would use a combat jacket for an improvised stretcher today. Voliminous sashes are more likely related to the puffy slashed sleeves of the 15th-16thC (a means of a man to exhibit his wealth through multiple silk shirts).

Acorn


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## Steel Badger

Exactly Acorn....

And then of course the occasional use was taken has "regular fact" by those souls in the military who simply MUST have an esoteric tale / reason to tag onto everything...

Private-Recruit Bloggins: Why are the aluminium garbage cans we use ridged like that Sergeant?

Sergeant:"Stuck -for -an -answer Dirt":  Well Young Bloggins, You see it were like this.....they made the waves in the side to represent the rise and fall of the politician's opinion fer us the military see?; and of course...and of course because all they  the ever give us is trash!


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## a_majoor

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Exactly Acorn....
> 
> And then of course the occasional use was taken has "regular fact" by those souls in the military who simply MUST have an esoteric tale / reason to tag onto everything...
> 
> Private-Recruit Bloggins: Why are the aluminium garbage cans we use ridged like that Sergeant?
> 
> Sergeant:"Stuck -for -an -answer Dirt":  Well Young Bloggins, You see it were like this.....they made the waves in the side to represent the rise and fall of the politician's opinion fer us the military see?; and of course...and of course because all they  the ever give us is trash!



You mean it_ isn't_ true?


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## ktownman1

The Red Sash of the Infantry. When I was promoted into the WO and Sgts Mess and presented with my sash, this is the story that I was told my my then RSM. It is the same one that was told to everyone else that was promoted after me and the same one I continued to tell when I was RSM. The red sash was originally white and was worn to denote the Duty Sgt. For some reason it evolved to all the WO & Sgts wearing them. The sash became red from being worn in battle and it was used to assit in carrying wounded. The sash comes in dark colours of red and the higher the rank the darker the colour signifying more battles. Only the Infantry WO & Sgts are permitted to wear the Red Sash save those from Rifle Regiments who wear a black leather Cross belt.


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