# C-13... when will they go?



## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

Will someone please tell me if we're going to get rid of this piece of junk. It is a total burden to an RSO... not to mention is we have to use them for real. Go back to the M-67.


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## chrisf (16 Oct 2004)

While I'll be the first to admit I don't have extensive experience with grenades, as far as I know, I've thrown the M-67... looking at a picture of the C-13, they look like the same grenade to me... what's the difference?


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## Slim (16 Oct 2004)

Whats wrong with it exactly?

Slim


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

> Whats wrong with it exactly?



Ammotech90...

    Do you read ammo deficiency reports? These C-13's are identical to the M-67, however the fuse, ammotech90 I might be wrong, is made in Canada (Quebec I think). They don't go off. I was an RSO in Meaford and we thew 180 of these. 6 didn't go off, and no I'm not willing to say how we got around the rule in Trg Safety (if there are five dudes in a practice the range must be shut down). 

ammotech90... shed some light on this


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## Da_man (17 Oct 2004)

bring out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

> bring out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch




What???


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## AmmoTech90 (17 Oct 2004)

Da_man said:
			
		

> bring out the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!



Yeah, but rabbits aren't much of a threat...


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## Pikache (17 Oct 2004)

Rounder said:
			
		

> What???



Reference to Monty Python: The Quest for the Holy Grail

It's an absolute classic.


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## paracowboy (17 Oct 2004)

*A Reading from the Book of Armaments, Chapter 4, Verses 16 to 20:*

Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." 
And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."


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## Crazy_Eyes (17 Oct 2004)

Must have missed that one


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## chrisf (17 Oct 2004)

"You call yourself a monty python fan? Get it together lad!"


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

HEY!!!!


 I started this thread... let's keep it to the point... the C-13's.. enough with the Monty Python.


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## Michael OLeary (17 Oct 2004)

Anyway, back to the original topic. I remember some lots of M-67 that had similar problems, though I cannot recall any such incidents in the past decade or so.

Could be just a less than ideal lot of fuses.


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

Sir... It's happening everywhere, all the time. Someone at NDHQ reads the ammo def reports, they must know.


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## pegged (18 Oct 2004)

I threw 2 M67 Grenades on my SQ. The rest of the course did also, and some of the instructors too. They all went off.


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## Spr.Earl (24 Oct 2004)

Wow thats a new one to me.
In all my years on a Grenade Range I have never seen a dud but have seen missfires with old Carl and the M72 but never Grenades.


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## rounder (24 Oct 2004)

> Wow thats a new one to me.
> In all my years on a Grenade Range I have never seen a dud but have seen missfires with old Carl and the M72 but never Grenades.



   Same here, but this year is the first year i've seen the C-13, and so far i've counted 13 duds out of apprx 400 grenades.


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## Jeff Boomhouwer (31 Oct 2004)

I lost count of the number of those little gems that were duds. I can tell you I have never heard soo much C4 in a single weekend in my life. We had that sapper earning his money that weekend. As for closing the range after 5 duds that is correct. The way around that is to close the range than reopen it. Clickadickick moelitia trick.


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## Lance Wiebe (3 Nov 2004)

Now the National Post is on it:

<a href=http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=13ee2325-521b-4582-9a53-488bd144c13e>Link to story here</a>



> at the moment, we're not going outside the bounds of what's an acceptable failure rate for this ammunition."
> 
> Mr. Albon said cases where as many as 12% of the grenades failed to explode were isolated incidents.
> 
> The acceptable failure level for grenades is 2%.



This part really bothers me.   According to numpty here, a failure rate achieved last year approaching 4% is not too bad.

What BS.   No ammunition, ever, should have a failure rate of even .1%

The government seems bent on playing with soldiers lives, just in order to keep buying grenades made in Canada as opposed to buying better quality, cheaper grenades made in the US.


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## rounder (3 Nov 2004)

> Now the National Post is on it:




Lance, Can you post the link.


Thanks


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## Lance Wiebe (3 Nov 2004)

Click on the "Link to story here" in my post above.

That's the link.


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## pappy (4 Nov 2004)

Maybe the CF should send all the duds back to the factory.....  drop them off on the CEO's desk   :dontpanic:


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Nov 2004)

via the Lieberal Party Procurment Office


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## Swanny (4 Nov 2004)

Wow, sounds like a piece of...well you get the point.  I was just throwing m-67's, or what I was told was an m-67, in Meaford.  There were 2 duds on the platoon in front of us and 1 dud in ours.  Makes for a long day, but if those were a c-13 they're junk.


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## 48Highlander (4 Nov 2004)

I helped run a granade range recently using the C-13's.  our task was to put through roughly 150 soldiers, throwing 2 granades each.  our first dud occured after a mere 50 (more or less) granades.  we had to shut down the range and, due to lack of QL5 qualified medics, the engeneer was not allowed to blow the granade.  This resulted in the range being shut down, and everyone being sent home.  The following weekend, a different unit was assigned to run the granade range while my unit was supposed to take part in the training.  They had a dud within the first 45 minutes.  Once again, the training was canceled and everyone sent home.  Since the brigade had only allocated those two weekends to re-qualify everyone on the granades, we now have less than half of our personnel "qualified".  The thing that worries me most about all this is that I've seen no sign that anyone plans to do anything about it.  What message do the troops get out of all this?  Either nobody gives a sh**t about soldiers going through proper MLOCK training every year, or nobody's willing to speak out about the state of our equipment munitions.


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## muskrat89 (4 Nov 2004)

Well, I can't speak for the manufactuing of munitions, but I can tell you about the automotive industry..   My company makes metal stampings, mostly for the airbag industry. In the automotive industry, "duds" are measured in PPMs - parts per million. Our customers, and indeed, theirs (the OEMs) want/expect a PPM of ZERO. In reality, a company is doing extremely well, if their PPMs are in the single digits (as ours generally are). "Bad parts" can be the result of dimensional issues, finish issues (i.e rust, plating, powdercoating, etc.), slug marks, scratches, bent, etc. etc. Usually, a bad part results in the entire lot (or lots) coming back, and 100 0r 200% hand-sorted, again. At our expense..

Now, I realize that to a degree, I am comparing apples and oranges, but one would think that similar, quality-related stipulations would be on hand grenades, or other munitions!!

 ???


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## MikeM (4 Nov 2004)

During my SQ this past summer we had a 2 dud's out of the 2 platoons that were there, and I believe we were using the C-13's.. I could be mistaken however.

We had the first dud about 15-20 minutes after commencing the training.


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## DOOG (4 Nov 2004)

Hi Folks..
During the month of October we had three units from this brigade go to the grenade range. The first two had 5 duds each and the third unit had two. I have never heard of anything like this in my 34+ years. Way back when we used #36 grenades and had to prime the things we didn't have a failuer rate like that.


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## Danjanou (4 Nov 2004)

pappy said:
			
		

> Maybe the CF should send all the duds back to the factory.....   drop them off on the CEO's desk     :dontpanic:



With or without the pins in them? ;D


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## QORvanweert (4 Nov 2004)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> With or without the pins in them? ;D


It doesn't matter, they wouldn't blow up either way!


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## BetterThanTheBest (23 Nov 2004)

On my SQ this summer we had less than thirty people through and had 2 duds with the c-13s


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