# Disability Awards:  Debating the System (merged)



## the 48th regulator

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/draw+line+sand+vets+disability+awards/3840181/story.html


*I draw a line in sand on vets' disability awards*


The Ottawa Citizen November 17, 2010 4:08 AM



It has been said that every day is Remembrance Day for families and friends who have lost a loved one in service to our great country.

In my 10 months as Minister of Veterans Affairs, I have come to understand this more profoundly than ever. As our nation's attention is focused on our veterans this month, it is appropriate that we should take the time to discuss the issues that are so important to them and their families.

I would like to re-assure all Canadians that our government has been listening to our veterans. We recognize that they have legitimate concerns, and we have acted to address them.

I feel obliged, however, to draw one line in the sand. There are those who insist that Canada should abandon the disability award, or lump-sum payment as it is known, and the ongoing financial supports that come with it. They want us to turn back the clock and fully restore the previous system of disability pensions. I believe this would be a serious error. And, quite frankly, I believe those advocating such changes probably don't know all the details of the New Veterans Charter, which was passed unanimously by Parliament in 2005.

While disability pensions had worked well following the two world wars, they had run their course. We had to correct a pension system that encouraged increasingly younger veterans to focus on proving their health was deteriorating while receiving very limited benefit from doing so. After all, the average disability pension from Veterans Affairs Canada was about $600 per month, and it came with few services and only partial medical care.

The New Veterans Charter, on the other hand, is about far more than the disability award. It also provides other ongoing financial supports. One example is the monthly earnings loss benefit. It provides eligible veterans with up to 75 per cent of their pre-release salary. With more than $2 billion in recent changes our government has announced, we are convinced that the New Veterans Charter can keep pace with the varied needs of the men and women it serves.

Jean-Pierre Blackburn,

Minister of Veterans Affairs


_© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen_



Oh that's right, at no time did you say the changes in the "New Chapter" involved changing the lump sum.....

You are one sly man Mr. Grinch Blackburn....I meant Blackburn.

dileas

tess


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## PuckChaser

We don't want the financial supports from the NVC changed, Mr Blackburn. We want the disability pensions AND those new financial supports.

I'm starting to think we need a union (and I hate unions) like in the Netherlands to get anything changed in our favour.


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## Edward Campbell

I wonder what happens when a senior officer or official visits Army.ca, as I know some do, to try to “take the pulse” of the military family on, say, the *veterans* issue, which is a current 'hot' topic in _official_ Ottawa. How does (s)he find our views? I appears to me that a fairly laboureous search is necessary. 

I suggest that we need a *“Veterans' Issues”* superthread made up of, at least, the following threads:

Topic: Pat Stogran says Veterans Affairs may have improperly shared his medical files  (Read 630 times);

Topic: When will the VAC changes be implemented?  (Read 1118 times);

Topic: Veteran’s wife wants bureaucrats to pay for sharing medical info  (Read 1937 times);

Topic: Older vets feel sidelined by Afghan-focused VA  (Read 637 times);

Topic: A NATIONAL DAY OF SUPPORT FOR OUR NATION’S VETERANS  (Read 1072 times);

Topic: Investigator in Stogran's office on deck as new veterans ombudsman  (Read 1034 times); and

This thread.


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## ArmyRick

One of my friends got a royal shafting from VAC after being injured several years ago in IED strikes. I will not mention his name (that is his business to do so) but when they told him his injuries could have been the result of his birth and not being caught in IED strikes, whoa! Enough!

How do these people decide over the doctors and surgeon's proffessional opinion? It seems Mr Blackburn is standing by the new charter for VAC.


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## OldSolduer

What needs to happen is the Canadian public has to get riled up, really riled up and write their MPs, PM etc.

This won't happen as they're too busy with Prince William and Kate (I like them both) Kate Perry and Russel Brand (he's a nimrod and butt ugly), or Angelina Jolie, Oprah etc.

Cynical you say? You bet.


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## jollyjacktar

Veterans Affairs.  Saving your Government dollars today on the backs of all Veterans....  

Mr. Blackburn no matter how you try to spin it, it's baloney.  You're saving big bucks, period by screwing Vets.  I'll grant you that you've inherited this portfolio, but nevertheless the buck stops at the top.  And you're it.


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## Rifleman62

ArmyRick: To answer your question as to how, I posted this in October.



> My understanding of the system VAC uses for claims is that the Adjudication Department clerk, who is not a medical professional, reviews the report of the claimants’ medical condition/claim. The Adjudication Clerk then fits the words from the medical professional's report into VAC's Table of Disabilities. Then, if the correct words are presented, and all the round pegs are fit into the appropriate holes, you may be successful with your claim.
> 
> I say words, because I have experienced this on several occasions where the appropriate phrase/word from the Table of Disabilities was not used. The prescription drug or treatment was refused with the option to appeal within sixty days.
> 
> Additionally, since 2006, VAC's Medical Officers cannot recommend anything. All they do is complete a Medical Questionnaire with words and check marks. An Adjudication Clerk can and does overrule a licensed Medical Doctor, either the VAC District Medical Officer, the military MO, or a civilian practitioner
> 
> Know what a Summary of Assessment is? The Adjudication Clerk, processing a claim, checks the summary to ascertain what you have been awarded, for what and how much, then a decision is made on a claim.
> 
> I fail to see what reviewing the Summary of Assessment has to do with a claim that is currently being assessed. VAC updates it after every decision is made.
> 
> If you appeal, guess what? That same Summary of Assessment is reviewed by the board members of your Review Hearing, or at the final appeal stage, the members of the Appeal Hearing when making their decision on your claim. The VRAB is supposed to be independent and impartial, so why do they have access to the claimants’ Summary of Assessment?
> 
> Veterans Review and Appeal Board (VRAB)
> 
> Our Vision
> 
> To demonstrate fairness, competence and excellence in service to Canadians by providing independent, consistent and reasonable decisions that are grounded in law.
> 
> Our Values
> 
> Impartiality, Excellence, Integrity, Respect, Balance





> It provides eligible veterans with up to 75 per cent of their pre-release salary.



How long do you get 75% of your pre- release salary? Is it two years?


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## Wookilar

More smoke and unrealistic numbers. They fed the same thing to us here at their info session a few weeks ago.

The 75% is paid out during rehab, up to a max of 2 years. Oh...and they decide when you are done rehab, not you. I'd like to see the official numbers on how many, and for how long, people actually drew on this.

Wook


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## Rifleman62

Thanks Wookilar. I thought so. Notice that the Minister left this unsaid, so the public thinks soldiers get this for life, not two years. It is misleading spin.


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## krustyrl

That 75% also includes any monthly award/ compensation that is considered by SISIP as an income when it is an award/compensation for a claimed injury.  Praying for that Class Action Lawsuit to come through. 
How dare they include YOUR pain and suffering award in that 75%...it's YOU and I that suffered it ,not them.


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## Halifax Tar

Its a scary day to be in an operational theater in a CF uniform by the sounds of it!


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## OldSolduer

Personally I find the whole thing disgusting. The government should take a very close look at this and change it.


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## Nemo888

A very expensive spin machine is drowning us out.

VAC is all about promises and stalling. They always build you up and then don't really deliver. They promise a Christmas feast but all you get is that weird little piece of bread from an IMP and NO PEANUT BUTTER. I am starting to think all these promises without timetables are probably bull***t public relations.

I bet Peter McKay will quit over this.


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## armyvern

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/draw+line+sand+vets+disability+awards/3840181/story.html
> 
> I feel obliged, however, to draw one line in the sand. There are those who insist that Canada should abandon the disability award, or lump-sum payment as it is known, and the ongoing financial supports that come with it. They want us to turn back the clock and fully restore the previous system of disability pensions. I believe this would be a serious error. *And, quite frankly, I believe those advocating such changes probably don't know all the details of the New Veterans Charter, which was passed unanimously by Parliament in 2005*.
> 
> ...
> 
> Jean-Pierre Blackburn,
> 
> Minister of Veterans Affairs[/color]



For a guy who's supposed to "hear the Veterans of Canada" --- Yes indeed; *they* don't know the details of the NVA -- despite the fact that *they* *are* the injured Vets subsisting under that NVA.  Is it just bad listening skills??  :

What part of the conversation has the Minister missed?? Revert to the old way? NO WAY!! YOU should have been paying for the psych care etc of those war-injured Vets since Canada became a nation, yet you were not. It took the NVA to do that!! But, to cover the costs of that, YOU ( you are the helm of the ship now) cut your losses by implementing lump sum in lieu of monthly pension so that today's injured Vets can subsist.

No one wants to erase everything and go back to a simple disability pension!! Nice spin though. There are good things about the NVA ... KEEP those - they already came decades too late for our forefathers ...

JUST hurry up and replace the lump-sum portion of the NVA with the monthly pension as it should have remained so that Canada's injured do not have to subsist as you currently have them doing. You've been talking to Vets, you DO know the difference full well.

Grovelling; that's what it feels like. Disgusting.


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## Turner

We as vets are gonna go crazy waiting for everything to go the way we want it too. Blackburn is just another penny pinching arsehole whos trying to look good to the rest of the house of commons. I don't trust any of them. I'll wait and see if we ever get monthly payments back. We probably won't.

Damn it feels good to let that out. I wish I could just send an email to Blackburn himself.

Mat


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## Cdnleaf

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> A very expensive spin machine is drowning us out.
> 
> VAC is all about promises and stalling. They always build you up and then don't really deliver. They promise a Christmas feast but all you get is that weird little piece of bread from an IMP and NO PEANUT BUTTER. I am starting to think all these promises without timetables are probably bull***t public relations.
> 
> I bet Peter McKay will quit over this.



Great post, I'm laughing at the rats/bread and no peanut butter, that always sucks.  I'll take your bet for a Tims+donut that McKay won't quit. At the end of a MPs term in politics, lies a rainbow with a pot of golden benefits and rations filled with Barolo, foie gras, fresh baguettes and brie. All the best, Dan.


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## ArmyRick

I am a bit ignorant on this matter and those that know please educate me.

I do understand the monthly payments in the old system were better.

Were they any disadvantages to the old system? I am asking because I am really wondering why this new (screw the) vets charter came in.


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## Rifleman62

News Release  http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=department/press/viewrelease&id=1042

November 17, 2010
Government of Canada Introduces Legislation to Improve Financial Aid for Canadian Forces Personnel and Veterans 

Ottawa - Today, the Honourable Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Minister of State (Agriculture), tabled changes to the New Veterans Charter to significantly improve financial support for injured Canadian Forces members and Veterans.

"In tabling these legislative changes today, we are writing a new chapter to the New Veterans Charter. These changes, totaling two billion dollars, will greatly improve the quality of life of our Veterans. Our government is determined to see that our Veterans and their families receive all the care, the services and the financial support they need and deserve," said Minister Blackburn.

Improved monthly benefits

First, by amending regulations, the government will establish a minimum pre-tax income of $40,000 a year for Veterans who can no longer work and for those who are in rehabilitation.

The Enhanced New Veterans Charter Act, introduced in the House of Commons today, increases monthly financial support for injured Veterans who are no longer able to work. If passed, this Act will:

    * expand eligibility for monthly allowances for seriously injured Veterans (up to $1,609 per month, for life).
    * introduce an additional $1,000 monthly supplement to help our most seriously injured or ill Veterans.

Flexible options for the Disability Award

Create new options for Canadian Forces members and Veterans who would prefer to receive the existing lump sum Disability Award as either an annual payment over any number of years or as a combination of a partial lump-sum payment and annual instalments.

"We have heard the concerns of Veterans and their families about the challenges of managing a large sum of money. They will now be able to spread their payment out over a number of years of their choice. As well, it is important to remember that the lump sum does not replace the monthly disability pension. The lump sum is an immediate recognition of suffering and pain that is added to the financial benefits mentioned above and other services available under the New Veterans Charter. If the legislation is adopted, on top of the lump sum Disability Award, our most seriously injured Veterans who are no longer able to work will receive at least $58,000 per year," added Minister Blackburn.

With today's announcement, Veterans who receive a Disability Award will have the choice between:

    * annual payments spread out over the number of years of their choice (with interest);
    * part of the award as a lump sum and the rest as annual payments over the number of years of their choice (with interest); or
    * a single lump sum payment.

Furthermore, at any time, Veterans who so choose may change their minds and receive the remaining amount as a lump-sum payment.

Dominion President, Mrs. Patricia Varga, of The Royal Canadian Legion stated, "This Bill, as a first step, makes great strides in improving the New Veterans Charter and encompasses many of the recommendations made by the New Veterans Charter Advisory Group and the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. The Legion considers that further improvements are needed to the Charter on which we look forward to continue the ongoing dialogue with Minister Blackburn."

"With this Bill, we applaud the Government for keeping its promise that the New Veterans Charter is truly a living document," said Ray Kokkonen, President of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association. "Naturally, we are pleased to have had a role in this matter and that our advice and recommendations have been heard. Advocating for significantly increasing the financial support to our severely wounded Veterans, to allow them live with dignity, is a top priority for our organization. Accordingly, we are very glad to see this challenging issue being addressed. We will continue cooperating closely with Minister Blackburn on other matters related to the Charter to ensure that the ongoing and emerging needs of our Veterans and their families are met."

Backgrounder - Additional details on the Enhanced New Veterans Charter Act below:

Additional Details on the Enhanced New Veterans Charter Act

Backgrounder

Today, the Government of Canada tabled legislation to enact significant improvements to the financial support available to injured Canadian Forces (CF) members and Veterans. If passed, the Enhanced New Veterans Charter Act will make changes to the New Veterans Charter to address concerns raised by Veterans, their families, Veterans’ organizations, advisory groups and parliamentary committees.

This legislation would:

    * improve access to monthly benefits for seriously injured Veterans (up to $1,609 per month, for life);
    * introduce a monthly $1,000 supplement for life to help our most seriously injured or ill Veterans; and
    * provide flexible options for receiving a Disability Award by choosing either a lump-sum payment, annual instalments over a number of years or a combination of both.

Improve access to the Permanent Impairment Allowance and the Exceptional Incapacity Allowance:

Often CF Veterans who are compensated for their injuries under the Pension Act later receive a new diagnosis. This new injury or illness is then compensated for under the Charter. Currently, there is a gap between the Pension Act and the New Veterans Charter that prevents Veterans from having all of their injuries considered for eligibility for the Permanent Impairment Allowance (PIA) or the Exceptional Incapacity Allowance (EIA). This leaves the Veteran unable to meet the criteria for accessing either the PIA or the EIA.

In this context, since the Charter was adopted, only 16 Veterans have been eligible for the PIA.

A Veteran may receive a 70% Disability Pension under the old system and a 30% Disability Award under the New Veterans Charter. Under the current rules, the Veteran is unable to access EIA because we cannot combine the 70% Disability Pension and the 30% Disability Award to meet the disability assessment threshold of 98–100% required to access the EIA. A different but equally important problem exists because today, if a Veteran’s rehabilitation need is related to a pensioned condition (in this example, the condition assessed at 70%) he or she is also not eligible for the PIA.

This change is expected to extend eligibility to as many as 3,500 more Veterans.

Introduce a monthly $1,000 supplement for permanently and severely injured Veterans:

Severely injured Veterans who are receiving the PIA and are unable to be gainfully employed will receive an additional $1,000 per month for the rest of their lives. This would be added to other financial supports they may receive, notably a minimum of $40,000 pre-tax per year as an Earnings Loss benefit. It is anticipated that approximately 500 Veterans will benefit from this change over the next five years.

Provide payment options for the Disability Award:

The tax-free Disability Award is currently a one-time payment designed solely to recognize and compensate for the non-economic impact (the pain and loss) of an injury or illness. It is in addition to other financial supports (such as the monthly Earnings Loss benefit and the PIA) which recognize the ongoing economic impact of an injury. Under this proposed change to the New Veterans Charter, CF members and Veterans will have new options for receiving their Disability Award. These options are:

    * equal annual payments spread out over the number of years of their choice (with interest);
    * a partial lump-sum payment with the balance paid out in annual installments over any number of years (with interest); or
    * a single lump-sum payment.

Veterans who so choose will be able—at any time—to switch to a lump-sum payment to receive the balance owing to them.

Introduce a minimum annual Earnings Loss benefit:

In addition to the legislated changes outlined above, the regulations which govern the New Veterans Charter will be amended to include a minimum annual, pre-tax income of $40,000 for recipients of the monthly Earnings Loss benefit. This enhancement should increase the monthly financial support available to approximately 2,300 Veterans over the next five years who either left the Canadian Forces while still at a low military rank or when military salaries were much lower than they are today.


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## Turner

So someone who has a big hearing loss disability and was awarded say, 50k, can only break down that 50k over however many months that they want? So when the 50k runs out there done receiving payments? That's retarded. It's still not fair. Other vets from the old system could get $700 a month for hearing loss for the rest of there lives. At a young age to start claiming the benefit they would make tons more than the new system. I'm pissed! I may be coming across as greedy but hell yeah I'm greedy. After an injury from service the least that us vets could get is some cash! I don't want more holidays, I don't want a sandwich, I want cash!


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## Brutus

I understand that in the private insurance world, the main focus is on reducing or eliminating payouts. I get that, in all it's cold-heartedness. These are money guys, and it is a competitive market place. What I find really disgusting and indefensible, is that we have a GOVERNMENT insurance system whose sole mandate is to provide care (in various forms) for injuried vets. It is NOT a money making system, and it is not a competitive market place. Yet, the principle of reducing claims and benefits to the beneficiary (the VET) is still a high (and I think top) priority. 

VAC is not there to reduce costs, it is not there to be a money-maker (it should ALWAYS lose money), it is there to adequately care for vets and do whatever they can to return him/her to the physical, mental, and psychological condition he/she was prior to the injury. The cost in doing so is almost irrelevant. If they want to reduce costs, the time to do that is not AFTER the injury, it's in preventing the injury in the first place. 

Fire the lot of 'em.


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## Takeniteasy

We should all read the Veterans Charter and the programs and services that are included. I find it interesting that the One Lump Payment/Or taken over instalments is worded as a Non-economical benefit for injuries suffered while on duty. That is key in this argument ( Non-economical ) http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=information-canadian-forces/services-benefits/disability-benefits

 What would the value of a pain and suffering be? Certainly not $270,000 ( for our most seriously ill and injured). The payment is also adjusted annually for cost of living so should anyone who gets a "one time payment" be annually compensated for the increase? Is someone who suffered serious injury in the 90's while on duty better off at the time? No way, just ask Maj Bruce Henwood (retired) about that. It took his and a few others efforts to bring parody to compensation for all ranks who suffer similar injuries. The debate is still ongoing..

2+2

Veteran receiving %100 or less disability ( lets say a bilateral above knee amputtee ) $4500 monthly tax free
4500 X 12 = 54,000 annually   X that by 10 years = $540,000 if they receive for 20 years $1, 080,000

Compared to:
2500 X 12 = 30,000 annually   X that by 10 years = $300,000 if they receive for 20 years $600,000
500 X 12 = 6000 annually  X that by 10 years = 60,000 if they receive for 20 years $120,000 (close to  half of what someone gets for %100

Reverse that with the Max total for pain and suffering:
$270,000 / 20 years = $13,500 / by 12 = $1125 a month.... ( decide for yourself on the pain and suffering)

My case $123.00 X 12 = $1476.00 annually X that by 10 years = $14,760 by 20 years = $29,520 X 30 years if I make it = $44,280 ( that does not include the annual adjustment for cost of living/ I have received this for 8 years now %5 )
I am still able to access medical or rehab programs if my condition warrents it. Medical or rehab programs are offered no matter if you fall in the before or after 2006.

** Remember the "Disability Award" ( One time payment-or the old Pension ) is for Pain and Suffering that is NON-ECONOMICALLY related.

Like most government webpages you really have to look hard through all the layers to actually find what it is you are looking for. 

Here you can go and find out what types of Disability Benefits there are http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=information-canadian-forces/services-benefits/disability-benefits#what-are

You can read what types of Finacial Benefits there are here http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=information-canadian-forces/services-benefits/financial-benefits
Earning Loss Benefit is only while you are in a rehabilitation or vocational program. 

So the Canadian Forces includes for Veterans a "Canadian Forces Income Support" payment that is taxable.

We all have to make the decision based on our own circumstances.

Andrew


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## dogger1936

I wonder if my severe PTSD and MDD would be considered "serious"? Somehow I see serious as at least 3 missing limbs. Thoughts?


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## ArmyRick

3 x missing limbs and a copy of your complete CAT and ultrasound full body scan that you willing had done at time of enrollment to prove beyond any doubt that these injuries were not already there upon enrollment.


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## dogger1936

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> 3 x missing limbs and a copy of your complete CAT and ultrasound full body scan that you willing had done at time of enrollment to prove beyond any doubt that these injuries were not already there upon enrollment.



Oh your talking about the appeal! your forgot the lawyer you need! ;D

In all seriousness I really would like to know their definition of a serious injury.


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## mariomike

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> In all seriousness I really would like to know their definition of a serious injury.



This might help:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/96607/post-972749.html#msg972749


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## dogger1936

See its the wording mike. that link is talking about catastrophic yet the enhanced is saying serious. Personally I think taking 10 pills a day to stand up right not snap and go to sleep would be considered.


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## mariomike

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> See its the wording mike. that link is talking about catastrophic yet the enhanced is saying serious. Personally I think taking 10 pills a day to stand up right not snap and go to sleep would be considered.



It certainly would be if it were up to me, Dogger. There is lots of Personal Injury info online, I have read a lot of it, but it's non-military.


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## 57Chevy

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> In all seriousness I really would like to know their definition of a serious injury.


Definitions of serious injury on the Web:Link

•Any injury that will likely result in mortality (50 CFR 216.3).
www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/glossary.htm

•Any injury which: (1) requires hospitalization for more than 48 hours, commencing within 7 days from the date the injury was received; (2) results in a fracture of any bone (except simple fractures of fingers, toes, or nose); (3) causes severe hemorrhages, nerve, muscle, or tendon damage; (4 ...
www.fs.fed.us/r5/fire/aviation/terminology

•Injuries that result in one or more of the following conditions:
www.airsafe.com/events/define.htm

•An injury which is sustained by a person in an accident and which:
www.castc.org.cn/danger/getfile.asp

•A Serious Injury is defined as a claim with an STD, LTD, or Fatal benefit payment in the period consisting of the month of injury or the following 3 months that has at least one of the following:
www2.worksafebc.com/Topics/YoungWorker/Statistics.asp

•A serious injury is an injury that may require months of rehabilitation or have the ability to incapacitate the policyholder. Only after the attending physician and the insurer's medical consultant have come to a consensus shall a serious injury be said to exist.
www.international-medical-insurance.com/information/key-terms-and-definitions.php

                         (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)
                      _______________________________________________________

Now I am wondering if Veterans Affairs takes these definations into consideration,
Or do they go by their own definition scribbled into the sand pie ?


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## mariomike

Serious Injury sounds like what is otherwise known as "Critical Injury":
http://wx.toronto.ca/intra/hr/policies.nsf/9fff29b7237299b385256729004b844b/7f68d1e39bec88878525776100619986?OpenDocument


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## the 48th regulator

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I wonder if my severe PTSD and MDD would be considered "serious"? Somehow I see serious as at least 3 missing limbs. Thoughts?



http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=dispen/2006tod/ch_21_2006

Old Charter 1995

Table To Article 21.02 - Assessment of Stress and Anxiety Disorders

New Charter 2006

Guidelines for Assessment of the Stress and Anxiety Disorders (including PTSD)


I find using the two, helps you figure out where you are at.  Do not focus on the wording, i.e "Severe" as this is where we are getting tripped up.  Focus on what you are capable of doing, in other words your function.  That is what VAC looks at, and why we end up losing in the end.  Use the same language, and thought process as they do.

Function, Adaptability, Daily living, Impairment level......etc.

Our degree of "Severe" differs Greatly with VAC's idea of Severe.  We look at how much we have suffered, based on the "Severity" of the description, they look at how they can compensate based what we have lost.

So that being said, this is what they define as severe;

*Table 21.1 – Loss of Function - Thought and Cognition*

    * Persistent incoherent speech; or
    * Persistent frank or bizarre delusions with no insight; or
    * Persistent hallucinations; or
    * Disorientated in all spheres.

*Table 21.2 – Loss of Function – Emotion, Behaviour and Coping (Adaptability) *

    *  Persistent episodes of mood elevation alternating rapidly with depressed mood. (Rapid Cycling)
    * Serious homicidal attempts; or
    * Eating disorder with maintenance of body weight at less than 70% of expected.
    * Marked regression in response to stress; or
    * Psychosis (greater than 24 hours duration) in response to stress.

*Loss of Function – Activities of Daily Living*

    * Totally dependent on caregiver for basic activities of daily living (transfers*, locomotion, eating, bathing and/or grooming).

*Table 21.4 – Other Impairment – Treatment Needs *

     * Continuous treatment. Institutional care.


So, of the four tables, I have pulled the Severe definition, according to VAC.

Do  you fall under any of them?

dileas

tess


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## dogger1936

21.2 all except homicidal attempts.

So there we have it. No way I get anything without attempting to kill myself ( and only if it's deemed serious enough)


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## Nemo888

I read in the paper today that comparing a military injury that nets a 30k to 40k VAC award would usually cost a civvie employer over 300,000$. Hopefully that provides a little perspective into how penny pinching VAC is. We aren't asking for much. Just what's fair. 

_Here is the link Regulator:

"The legion wants veterans' disability payouts to match general damages and awards for workers disabled on the job, which averages $329,000, White said."

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/canada/2010/11/17/16188411.html_


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## the 48th regulator

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I read in the paper today that comparing a military injury that nets a 30k to 40k VAC award would usually cost a civvie employer over 300,000$. Hopefully that provides a little perspective into how penny pinching VAC is. We aren't asking for much. Just what's fair.



Links please,

As this will help all of us.

dileas

tess


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## wildman0101

Smoke n Mirror's
Just my 2cents

Scoty B

Contact Info

Mike Blais

905-357-3306

Warning Order 
To members of Canadian Veterans National Day of Protest, Saturday, 6 November, 2010
  Mike Blais Rcr Cfds November 17 at 1:44pm Reply • Report

Big announcement proves to be smoke and mirrors, designed to conceal the fact that our troops are getting mistreated in quantum dimensions through the lump sum.

Our duty remains the constant, I have no doubt we shall have to mobilize again if we are to speak up for our troops over this issue. Please keep this in mind when you are talking to your friends and stand by. 

Veterans Minister Blackburn’s line in the Sand 

Perhaps it is appropriate Minister Blackburn chose to use the phrase drawing a line in the sand when recently describing his government’s refusal to address the New Veterans Charter’s Lump Sum award. The battlefields of Afghanistan are arid, the sands Canadian soldiers have trod upon these past nine years have truly been bloodied with Canadian sacrifice. 152 two valiant soldiers have been slain in Afghanistan. Bullets, RPGs and homemade improvised explosive devices have wounded hundreds, perhaps thousands, of our troops. The Taliban’s weapon of choice, the IED, is particularly vicious, designed to create as many terrible injuries as possible. Our soldiers have sustained multiple amputations and very serious injuries as the consequence. 

These are the veterans who will be subject to the lower standard created by Minister Blackburn’s line in the sand.

As primary organizer of the Canadian Veterans National Day of Protest conducted on November 6th, I can assure Canadians that the Lump Sum issue is THE primary motivational factor. Veterans have a sacred duty to those to whom we have passed the torch, it is our responsibility to ensure the wounded possess the appropriate standard of care/economic stability should they be repatriated with life altering injuries. 

Minister Blackburn claims we who stood up for our troops on November 6th are uninformed, that we do not understand the complexities of the New Veterans Charter.

Untrue! 

Veterans have heard Major Mark Campbell, Colonel Patrick Stogran and countless others who shall remain nameless until they are no longer bound by military protocols. We have heard the wives, the families, indeed, these stories of unnecessary hardship have only added to our commitment to resolve this unjust situation.

I would quote Major Mark Campbell, who bravely spoke out in the aftermath of the first national day of protest. Major Campbell lost both of his legs fighting to erase another line drawn in the sand. “Those of us who are severely disabled are still looking at about a 40-per-cent reduction in our income, compared to the old pension system. Does that seem like a good deal for a guy who's got no legs?" 

Does it? Is Major Campbell also uninformed? 

These numbers proposed are also exaggerated and disingenuously cross the line between a Veterans Affairs Pension and the LTD disability program that all soldiers are forced to purchase. The VAC pension is a tax free, non-economic award based on the degree of pain and suffering and the consequences it bears on his post-injury life. It is separate from the 75% wage replacement policy! The pensions comprising the 58000 dollars Minister Blackburn boasts are NOT, unlike VAC, tax-free! This real sum equates roughly to the Pre-NVC pension awarded to MCpl. Paul Franklin.

Mcpl Franklin’s monthly award continues for life, a poignant demonstration of the historic trust between Canada and our soldiers during times of war. The recently proposed 1000 dollar catastrophic award, the ELB, CPP disability and the SISIP LTD loss replacement payments all cease at the age of 65. 

Must I remind Canadians OUR veterans are STILL severely disabled? Must I remind our government that their responsibilities to these veterans do not cease at 65, but when they die? Just what do the conservatives expect these catastrophically injured veterans to do when over half of their income has been eliminated? Get a job at Walmart? 

Reality check! Veterans pension only. 

Two soldiers, one who fought valiantly on the crest of Hill 187 in Korea, 1953, the other who fought just as valiantly in the Panjawai Valley, 2007. Both are twenty-five years of age, sustained injuries commensurate with a full VAC pain and suffering pensions. Each has a lovely wife, a happy child, both live to the age of 85. Over the course of their lives, the Korean veteran received slightly over two million dollars. His wife and child were eligible for special programs/educational support. 

The veteran of the Afghanistan war receives… 276 thousand dollars. 

Is this how a conservative government honours the special covenant between nation and soldier, those who would offer life and limb for Canada? Has our government become uncaring, dispassionate, desensitized to the needs of our veterans who have experienced great hardship, pain and suffering? Shall we, Canadians who believe in justice, stand idle and complacent when our government willfully implements a much lower standard for those to whom we have passed the torch? 

I think not! 

I think we have just begun to fight, that our cause is just!

Should the conservative government fail to stand up for our troops, veterans will accept their responsibility to those who serve. We shall organize and we shall diligently seek to elect a party that will support our troops during the next election! 

Lest we Forget!

Michael L Blais CD 
Founder, Canadian Veterans Advocacy, CVNDOP 2010 



website's to check-out
http://homecomingvets.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/veterans-incensed-at-latest-vac-backtracking-on-public-promises-both-versions-captured-here

http://njnnetwork.com/2010/11/veterans-minister-backtracks-on-benefits-3-days-after-remembrance-day/


Enphasis on the difference between old charter and new
Two soldiers, one who fought valiantly on the crest of Hill 187 in Korea, 1953, the other who fought just as valiantly in the Panjawai Valley, 2007. Both are twenty-five years of age, sustained injuries commensurate with a full VAC pain and suffering pensions. Each has a lovely wife, a happy child, both live to the age of 85. Over the course of their lives, the Korean veteran received slightly over two million dollars. His wife and child were eligible for special programs/educational support. 

The veteran of the Afghanistan war receives… 276 thousand dollars. 
Scoty B


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## CombatDoc

Gnr Morton said:
			
		

> as i am not even remotely educated beyond website info don't take any of this PTSD;.........
> 
> PTSD is a grey matter..no pun intended.
> 
> PTSD should not be a serious injury if treated at first signs
> however 1st signs of PTSD are Physical signs of stress injury common sense would allow for quick recover with peer support
> if treated quickly with intensive counseling and with psychological methods that address each case of PTSD the life impact of the illness should be minimal and diagnosed as minimal.
> However if PTSD is left untreated and becomes agitated by further stresses related and unrelated to the initial traumatic experience/s a psychotic elevation of the symptoms may arise and this would require psychiatric treatment as well as the psychological counseling.
> 
> to consider PTSD as serious it would be left untreated for a very long period of time and perhaps reassemble syphilis in it final stages of mutation
> 
> other factors that may bring discussion for serious PTSD injury would be side effect injuries. drug treatment plans resulting in NMD NMS neurological malignant syndrome/disorder. NMS is a mental impairment attributed to intense side effects of anti psychotic treatment. although 1% of anti psychotic treatment plans have resulted in NMS
> NMS affects both the mental and physical functions of the body because it is severe brain damage. in most reported case of NMS life expectancy is 48-72 hours. there may be consideration for level of brain function impairment attributed to anti psychotic drugs that do not result in NMS. However there is no link to NMS and PTSD and they are treated separately. Hope this helps


If you are not "even remotely educated beyond website info", then why post on such an emotional topic?  What you have listed above is a jumbled mishmash of internet clippings, and frankly, is neither helpful nor accurate.


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## OldSolduer

Gnr Morton said:
			
		

> as i am not even remotely educated beyond website info don't take any of this PTSD;.........
> 
> PTSD is a grey matter..no pun intended.
> 
> PTSD should not be a serious injury if treated at first signs
> however 1st signs of PTSD are Physical signs of stress injury common sense would allow for quick recover with peer support
> if treated quickly with intensive counseling and with psychological methods that address each case of PTSD the life impact of the illness should be minimal and diagnosed as minimal.
> However if PTSD is left untreated and becomes agitated by further stresses related and unrelated to the initial traumatic experience/s a psychotic elevation of the symptoms may arise and this would require psychiatric treatment as well as the psychological counseling.
> 
> to consider PTSD as serious it would be left untreated for a very long period of time and perhaps reassemble syphilis in it final stages of mutation
> 
> other factors that may bring discussion for serious PTSD injury would be side effect injuries. drug treatment plans resulting in NMD NMS neurological malignant syndrome/disorder. NMS is a mental impairment attributed to intense side effects of anti psychotic treatment. although 1% of anti psychotic treatment plans have resulted in NMS
> NMS affects both the mental and physical functions of the body because it is severe brain damage. in most reported case of NMS life expectancy is 48-72 hours. there may be consideration for level of brain function impairment attributed to anti psychotic drugs that do not result in NMS. However there is no link to NMS and PTSD and they are treated separately. Hope this helps



Maybe you should stay in your arcs of fire.


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## 57Chevy

Morton,
There is an entire thread on Medak here
(Some you may know)
An interesting read I might add.
Also for further reading THE MEDAK POCKET CASE STUDY


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## OldSolduer

Gnr Morton - I hereby apologize for my very nasty comment. I've sent you a PM. I was with 2 VP at that time too.


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## aesop081

I understand the issue and agree that vets today get the short end. That being said, this part had me laughing :




			
				wildman0101 said:
			
		

> we shall diligently seek to elect a party that will support our troops during the next election!



Good luck with that one. The Liberals talk a bit game as the oposition because people have already forgotten that they were the ones who created this monster in the first place.

What about the NDP, you say............NDP means "Not Destined for Power" and you can imagine the damge they will cause to anything related to the military.

Greens ?.........Yeah right..........

Ellecting another party will not do anything. The solution lies with public opinion and they have a short attention span. By the time the next ellection rolls around, vets will no longer be the "cause du jour".........


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## Rifleman62

*Auditor-General to examine veterans'pay*

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/Auditor+General+examine+veterans/3949160/story.html

Thursday, Dec. 9, 2010

Auditor-General Sheila Fraser will investigate the New Veterans Charter and the lump-sum payments that became a flashpoint for growing numbers of wounded soldiers returning from Afghanistan.

Ms. Fraser confirmed her planned audit in a Dec. 7 letter to Liberal Senator Percy Downe, who pressed her office for an audit since studies came to light that predicted the new lump-sum disability payments would mean less money for veterans and save up to $40-million a year.

"I'm concerned this became a cost-saving exercise rather than a service to veterans," Mr. Downe said.

In the letter, Ms. Fraser said the issue "is an important one" for her office and auditors responsible for Veterans Affairs are planning an audit on "aspects" of the charter. Her office expects to deliver the report on the audit in the fall of 2012. The Harper government has been under fire for months, facing accusations that veterans have been shortchanged on benefits.


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## NSDreamer

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post it so mods feel free to move, but how much did vets coming home from WW2 recieve in comparison with what guys and gals get today?


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## Michael OLeary

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this is the right place to post it so mods feel free to move, but how much did vets coming home from WW2 recieve in comparison with what guys and gals get today?



You will have to do some extra digging to find historic rates, but the current rates for vets disability pensions for Second World Service are here:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=dispen#a03a


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## NSDreamer

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You will have to do some extra digging to find historic rates, but the current rates for vets disability pensions for Second World Service are here:
> 
> http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=dispen#a03a



thank you!


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## Occam

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You will have to do some extra digging to find historic rates, but the current rates for vets disability pensions for Second World Service are here:
> 
> http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=dispen#a03a



Not just for WWII service;  those rates apply also to any pensioned member right up until the implementation of the New Veterans Charter in 2006, and continue to be applied for pensioned conditions under the Pension Act.


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## wildman0101

Regard's my last: Sitrep from Mike
Prepare to copy.

Latest on Nov 6th Day of protest.
Sitrep to date as follow's,,

http://www.facebook.com/Mike.Blais.RCR

 Mike Blais Rcr Cfds December 7, 2010 at 4:12pm
Subject: Situation Report, 6 December, 2010 Canadian Veterans Advocacy – CVNDOP 2011
Situation Report, 6 December, 2010 Canadian Veterans Advocacy – CVNDOP 2011

Greetings from Niagara!

Things are moving forward with the formal incorporation of the Canadian Veterans Advocacy, with the hope of creating a national infrastructure capable of generating funding through subscription/membership and donations to financially support next years' Canadian Veterans National Day of Protest on November 5th and to remind Canadians of the continuing plight of veterans through an aggressive PR campaign.

Please be advised that many of the advocates and team leaders
sustained expenses on November 6th of this year due to the fact that we did not have a war chest in place, something I hope to rectify in time for next years' election/protest.

I would like to take a special moment to note the cash contributions of Sean Bruyea,(who covered the considerable expense of the PA system on Parliament Hill), Jeff Rose-Martland, Team Newfoundland & Labrador, (who paid for the permit for the St John's rally and incurred other expenses as well). eff heads up Our Duty, a Newfoundland based pro veterans organization that shares our disgust over the manner our veterans are being treated.

They are attempting to recover losses and you can contribute by going to his site at
http://www.facebook.com/l/9da8bXk-vJXd4FAdjK7lRX8CdGw;ourduty.org/ .
I would note Sean Wilson headed up the successful rally in London. http://www.facebook.com/l/9da8b1xJygsDQBQAS3ac2HnvPLQ;www.remembernovember11.com/

Of course, there are many, many others who have made significant contributions: Joe, Gary and Gary, Ken, CJ, Perry and Ron at http://www.facebook.com/l/9da8bik6EUYDFSAjnPDE98C-RVA;Veteranvoice.info , Chad, Sean W, Sheri, Lance, Bonnie, Buzz, Daniel, the CAV nationwide! (God bless you all!) Eric, Elsie, Fred, James, Rosanne, Rob, Gary, Claudia, Janet, Jeff, Mike, Doug, Bill, Harry, Tom, Glenn, Glenn, Craig, Peter, Ron D, Mark…

Whew, the list is long, and some first names could be repeated several times. Together we have made an important start, we have rallied, organized nation wide and created the foundation and infrastructure to continue to champion amendments to the New Veterans Charter to reflect the dignity and honour of those who served this nation before the NVC created a second class of veteran.

Sadly, our voices have yet to be heard.
The One Veteran
One Standard level of care we are fighting for has not been attained, worse... the organization traditionally responsible for veterans care has abandoned the "One Veteran, One Standard" policy and seems to have no problem facilitating further disrespect by advising on and encouraging parliamentarians to vote for Minister Blackburn’s inadequate proposals.

Proposals that are not retroactive, I might add. Once again, our veterans are being abandoned for a sound bite.

As such, there are no alternatives. We have a sacred duty to those to whom we have passed the torch. Do we abandon them during their time of need or do we press on?

As God is my witness, I have no intention of abandoning our troops, now or in the future. I pray that you, the veterans of this nation and patriotic Canadians who support our troops share my convictions, that you realize that we have no alternative but to mobilize to the next level.

This is the reason the Canadian Veterans Advocacy has been created. Our duty and primary objective is to fight for justice for veterans and those who serve today, who are being repatriated coming home from Afghanistan with terrible injuries and are not being accorded the life time standard of care and financial security representative of the unique and special bond between our soldiers and Canada during times of war.

Reality Check!

Strategically, we cannot attain our goals without raising money for: lobbying, television commercials, public advertisement, a U-tube campaign and of course, a war chest to defer the national costs of further demonstrations.

We must campaign on every medium available to us, paramount stratagems if we are to attain the primary mission.

Ie: inform Canadians of the true hardships our veterans are facing, define the nature of the Sacred Bond between Canada and its sons and daughters during times of conflict, expose the betrayal of the New Veterans Charter.

Unfortunately, time is of the essence. The threat of a looming election is real and it is during this period where we can have the most effect. Indeed, should we form our own military based voting block (one based on the principles of One veteran) One Standard, One Voice, I dare say we might be able to affect the outcome of the election and ensure the sacred bond, abandoned in 2006 to great consequences to Canada’s Sons and Daughters, is restored.

To attain these goals, a variety of fund raising plans will/are being implemented with the hope of attaining corporate/union support: Including subscription/membership on an individual basis through a 20 dollar annual subscription.

These funds will be used to fund a website, a small office staff when needed, a electronic media centre and most importantly, advocacy related operations. Membership is not exclusive to veterans although the first 100 veterans to join will be chartered members, accorded appropriate numbers and have there names published in a special page on the new web site.

Veterans will also have the special designation V for veteran noted on the card. Those who are interested in being part of the Charter membership are advised to contact me ASAP via email as many have already expressed interest

Please make out the Cheque out to: Canadian Veterans Advocacy and mail to ML Blais 6618 Harper Drive, Niagara Falls, Ontario L2E 7K6. I am using my home as base.

To all Members:
Membership cards will be issued and blazer crests, hats and red CVA Support the Troops t-shirts created for those interested once the logo is decided on.
Profits go back into the Advocacy Fund. It is my hope to organize a nation wide telethon/support the troops rally for a weekend this summer with money raised going directly to homeless veterans shelters, food banks and other issues abandoned by the federal government.

One Veteran, One Standard, One VOICE!

ML Blais CD
Founder, Canadian Veterans Advocacy.
CVNDOP 2010 - 2011. 6 Nov, 2010 

This Gentleman ML Blais CD has founded a new Canadian 
Veteran's Advocacy Group. He has responded to the call as
did Pat S. This gentleman has issued a warning order. 
I for one heard that. And I will support ML Blais CD in all 
his effort's to rectify all of the above and I'am asking for 
support. Not only for me or Mike but for all our Veteran's
Past,,, Present ,,, Future so these injustices never happen 
to our Veteran's again.
Thank-You for hearing me out...
Best Regard's all...
Scoty B


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## Future Pensioner

Can someone please pm me Mike's E-mail address?

Thanks.


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## George Wallace

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> Can someone please pm me Mike's E-mail address?
> 
> Thanks.



Ummmmmmm?   Which Mike?

If you go to one of their profile (whichever Mike you are talking about) and find their latest post; down under their name are email and PM buttons.  Push one and you will either email them a message or send them a Personal Message through the site's program.


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## Turner

I knew it was only a matter of time before the NVA needed us to give them money.


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## Future Pensioner

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ummmmmmm?   Which Mike?
> 
> If you go to one of their profile (whichever Mike you are talking about) and find their latest post; down under their name are email and PM buttons.  Push one and you will either email them a message or send them a Personal Message through the site's program.




My apologies - I meant the Mike Blais that was mentioned in the previous post.

Thanks.


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## wildman0101

Future/P
mlblaisrcr@veteransvoice.info.



Contact Info

Mike Blais

905-357-3306
Confirm why you need to know?
Just curious.


----------



## George Wallace

Wildman

Kinda late to ask why after you gave out all the personal information.


----------



## wildman0101

FRAK
G/W
Scuse me while I shoot myself in the foot.
PVT PM Request Please.
Scoty B


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## wildman0101

Future/P
Disregard my dumb*** last.
Scoty B


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## aysopn

I was digging through archives and came upon this thread. There is a small matter of optics I would like address. The correct contact information for Mike Blais can be found on the canadianveteransadvocacy.com site.

The posted contact information provided by wildman0101 is outdated. The address was intended as a POC during the Canadian Veterans National Day of Protest, 2010, prior to the incorporation of Canadian Veterans Advocacy.

veteranvoice.info does not actively solicit donations nor are any funds filtered from Canadian Veterans Advocacy.

Best regards to all.


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## RobA

Just wondering how you guys think it will go if they increase the max disability award as it seems like they might.

Let's say you are on 100% disability. I think your award was $280,000 or sometjing? If they increase it to, say, $380,000 and you got your award in 2007.

You think it'd be retroactive and you'd get $100,000?


----------



## stokerwes

Nope


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## RobA

Are you basing this on anything?

The entire issue came about because (mostly) Afghan vets were being shortchanged. The lawsuit is because of (mostly) Afghan vets. Why would they introduce a "fix" that does absolutely nothing to help Afghan vets?

Why would the plaintiffs in the Equitas lawsuit go through with it if they would see no relief of their own situation?

Are you just being cynical?


----------



## PuckChaser

Unless its specifically written to apply the change to any award after a certain date, changes to legislation only apply to those who apply for disability award after the new date. Look at all the guys who had injuries prior to 2006, but didn't apply until after the NVC came in, and were handled under that instead of the old system.


----------



## RobA

I understand what you're saying but it's really apples to oranges. Those are two comoletely different systems and once the NVC was implemented,  they didn't have the administrative ability to put them.in the old system.

And i would agree that new legislation is never retroacted. Butwe're not really talking about "changing legislation". Pretty sure the gov't is clear that the NVC is here to stay. All they're going to do.is tweak the existing system.

So if the gov't says that someone at 100% under the NVC gets $400,000 now (for example) that's still under the NVC. And if you are rated at 100% at the NVC, that's your entitlement. So if you're at 100% and HAVE MT gotten that amount, the balance will be paid to you (taking away what you've already bee paid, of course)

I mean, look, I know it's important to fight the good fight for those that come after us. But do you really think all the vets/lawyers/families etc are fighting all this just to ensure that vets in the future get help?

And if the gov't ups the disability award, they're basically saying the amount was underpaid from the get go
 I just think it'd be hard, politically, to say "yeah, we screwed the vets since 2008. And we won't screw ANYMORE vets. But the vets that got screwed are staying screwed"


----------



## RobA

Yikes, typos.

Sry I'm on my phone and have fat fingers.


----------



## RobA

Or, put another way, the Equitas lawsuit is currently undergoing settlement talks.

One if their main issues was the disability award and how it's implemented. 

Why on earth would the plaintiffs of that lawsuit agree to any settlement that did not benefit them whatsoever?  I mean, that would be admirable and all, but it's just not how the world works.


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## Fishbone Jones

Why even speculate? It only muddies the waters and leads to rumourmongering.

When it comes to legalities and government policy, you can never predict what it will look like when it is finalized.

We'll just have to wait and see. It's not the time for 'what ifs' and 'so whats'.


----------

