# CO-ED Accommodation



## FSTO (18 Apr 2021)

CO-ED Accommodation

A little bit of a whine here (okay, compared to the folks living in dry tents in the desert, we don't have a leg to stand on.)

Deployed to Bahrain, we are all living in 2 or 3 bedroom apartments. Each bedroom has its own ensuite, television, desk and door can be locked. We have one female (Cpl) who gets a whole apartment to herself while more senior officers are sharing 2 bedroom apartments. 

In light of the recent accusations of sexual misconduct in the CAF, I can see why this is so. 

But can we see a future where this will not be an issue and two folks regardless of gender can share an apartment while deployed?


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## daftandbarmy (18 Apr 2021)

FSTO said:


> CO-ED Accommodation
> 
> A little bit of a whine here (okay, compared to the folks living in dry tents in the desert, we don't have a leg to stand on.)
> 
> ...



Based on findings about co-ed living in the Norwegian Army, segregated accommodation can even make things worse:


Unisex rooms in the army take emphasis off gender​A new report on gender equality in the Norwegian Army says that the girls feel less sexually harassed by the boys when they share rooms.​
But instead of finding an increased focus on gender and sexuality, the researchers concluded that the unisex rooms had a degenderising effect.

“To them there was nothing strange about the unisex rooms. They had entered a common mode where gender stereotypes had disappeared, or at least they were less obvious. The uniform was also helping as it was more difficult to see the difference between boys and girls,” says Lilleaas.

“There is no gender in the army, there is only green”, said one of the interviewees in the research."









						Unisex rooms in the army take emphasis off gender
					

A new report on gender equality in the Norwegian Army says that the girls feel less sexually harassed by the boys when they share rooms.




					partner.sciencenorway.no
				







U.S. Military, Take Note: Norway’s Unisex Army Dorm Rooms Are Working​​Forcing female and male soldiers to sleep in the same room may sound like an odd way to improve the military’s notoriously poor gender relations, but the Norwegian Ministry of Defense has found success with a pilot program.

According to a new report, coed living arrangements actually facilitate “degenderization,” which helps to de-emphasize gender clichés and improve team morale. “There is no gender in the army. There is only green,” said one of the subjects in the study, “The Army: The Vanguard, Rear Guard and Battlefield of Equality.”










						U.S. Military, Take Note: Norway’s Unisex Army Dorm Rooms Are Working
					






					www.vocativ.com


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## kev994 (18 Apr 2021)

When I lived in a large tent in Kandahar I’m pretty sure they were coed, each room was separated from the other by a piece of tarp hanging from the ceiling.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Apr 2021)

They also have coed saunas and showers.


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## dimsum (18 Apr 2021)

FSTO said:


> Deployed to Bahrain, we are all living in 2 or 3 bedroom apartments. Each bedroom has its own ensuite, television, desk and door can be locked. We have one female (Cpl) who gets a whole apartment to herself while more senior officers are sharing 2 bedroom apartments.
> 
> In light of the recent accusations of sexual misconduct in the CAF, I can see why this is so.
> 
> But can we see a future where this will not be an issue and two folks regardless of gender can share an apartment while deployed?


So the only common area is a living room (and maybe kitchen)?  Having the lockable bedroom (with ensuite) door should be enough for privacy, no?  

Is that accommodation setup (women getting an entire apartment) just for Canadians or is it like that for everyone?


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## Kirkhill (18 Apr 2021)

Scandinavians are not North Americans...









						Swedish policewoman makes arrest in bikini
					

Officer becomes a hit on social media after stopping a suspected thief while sunbathing




					www.timesofisrael.com
				






By the way ... Is that a Minneapolis Restraint?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (18 Apr 2021)

No, it's in the middle of the back, not on the neck.

But I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of that lady: Do you see the legs and arm muscles!!!


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## FSTO (19 Apr 2021)

dimsum said:


> So the only common area is a living room (and maybe kitchen)?  Having the lockable bedroom (with ensuite) door should be enough for privacy, no?
> 
> Is that accommodation setup (women getting an entire apartment) just for Canadians or is it like that for everyone?


Each nation here decides how it wants to do things. The Danes (2) each have their own apartments. I don't really know about the rest.


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## Kilted (19 Apr 2021)

I remember when co-ed accommodations were fairly common, pre-Op Honour. Never really thought too much about it untill I worked with the Americans. I remember one of them being terrified that there was going to be a female sleeping in a tent with about 60 people in it. A couple other Americans actually thought that the Canadian Forces as a whole had a Starship Troopers style shower arrangement. 

I remember the atmosphere in co-ed accommodations was fairly relaxed, I feel like it was easier to work with women that way (at least from a logistical point of view).

I suppose that there are a few different ways to look at it. In some ways I think that women are somewhat excluded when they are sleeping elsewhere.


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## stoker dave (19 Apr 2021)

I was at RMC around the time 'lady cadets' were first enrolled.   That was in the early 1980s.  
I served onboard HMC Ships with 'mixed gender' crews.  That was in the late 1980s/early 1990s. 

Both of those circumstances might be considered 'co-ed'.  

At those times there was some difficulty in adjusting the culture.   I am frankly surprised this is still an issue.


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## daftandbarmy (19 Apr 2021)

stoker dave said:


> I was at RMC around the time 'lady cadets' were first enrolled.   That was in the early 1980s.
> I served onboard HMC Ships with 'mixed gender' crews.  That was in the late 1980s/early 1990s.
> 
> Both of those circumstances might be considered 'co-ed'.
> ...



Meanwhile, in the Infantry


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## Weinie (19 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in the Infantry


You had a puddle. Luxury!!!!!


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## PuckChaser (19 Apr 2021)

So a couple things stuck out at me:

1. Is she the only Canadian female officer in the TF? If not, are the others in 2 bdrm apts by themselves? If other female officers aren't sharing apts, you may have a point about preferential treatment.

2. This is Bahrain. In an Arab country they may be significantly less accepting of a female living with males not from her family. So in the sense of going along to get along, she gets her own apt.

3. "more senior officers are sharing 2 bedroom apartments". It's hard to read tone in text statements but it really comes off to me as a pretty entitled comment to make, especially if we're talking about a female Slt getting her own Apt and 2 Lt(N) or LCdrs complaining about having to share. I guess more context is needed here if you can provide.


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## rmc_wannabe (19 Apr 2021)

No one knows the complete story here, like what the Cpl's take is on it; is she comfortable being in shared accommodations? Was this something that was decided on without her input? Was this a directive that came down from higher (CJOC j1, GBA+ Advisor, etc.). 

Honestly, I have slept in a classroom with 7 other people (both genders) on a 6 month tour to free up more comfortable billets (turning 2 person rooms into single rooms) to staff officers. If I had a small violin, I'd be playing it for you.


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## Halifax Tar (19 Apr 2021)

Heavens above! Did we at least provide stewards ?


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## FSTO (20 Apr 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> So a couple things stuck out at me:
> 
> 1. Is she the only Canadian female officer in the TF? If not, are the others in 2 bdrm apts by themselves? If other female officers aren't sharing apts, you may have a point about preferential treatment.
> 
> ...


I'm going to be a bit of an asshole here, but did you read the ******* post?


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## SupersonicMax (20 Apr 2021)

What would a complete appartement to yourself bring that a room in an appartement doesn’t?  Issues sleeping?


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## Kilted (20 Apr 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> What would a complete appartement to yourself bring that a room in an appartement doesn’t?  Issues sleeping?


The ability to walk around naked.


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## PuckChaser (20 Apr 2021)

FSTO said:


> I'm going to be a bit of an asshole here, but did you read the ******* post?


Considering my post was about the same word length as yours, yes I read the post. If you came here looking for confirmation bias that you should be getting your own apartment, you left out the details that could lead any reasonable person to that conclusion.

Instead of swearing, maybe be an adult and use your words to articulate yourself.


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## FSTO (20 Apr 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Considering my post was about the same word length as yours, yes I read the post. If you came here looking for confirmation bias that you should be getting your own apartment, you left out the details that could lead any reasonable person to that conclusion.
> 
> Instead of swearing, maybe be an adult and use your words to articulate yourself.


Not going to get in a discussion about reading comprehension. Right at the start I said it was a whine and that compared to other folks deployed in the region we have it very, very good here.

The young lady in question is a Corporal not a commissioned officer.

Ack on the norms of the country we are in, but the saying among the Saudi's that visit here is "Allah is blind in Bahrain" so things are very liberal here.

I was gauging the response to the idea that men and women can share an apartment while deployed.


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## Blackadder1916 (20 Apr 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> 1. Is she the only Canadian female officer in the TF?



Maybe the question should be - is the "*Cpl"* the only Canadian NCM or the only Jr NCM.  You can't have officers (or Sergeants Major) sharing quarters with lesser classes.  That was obvious from a recent incident (discussed in another thread) in which a US Navy officer who was so fearful of the threat from non-commissioned contamination that he objected to being assigned married quarters in the enlisted area. 

From the limited info on-line about the Canadian presence in Bahrain, there doesn't seem to be a large contingent.


			https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/servces/operations/military-operations/current-operations/operation-artemis.html
		



> January 27, 2021 - Commodore Dan Charlebois of the Royal Canadian Navy assumed command of Combined Task Force 150 (CTF 150), during a change of command ceremony held at Naval Support Activity, Bahrain. Commodore Charlebois assumed command from Rear Admiral Sulieman Al Faqeeh of the Royal Saudi Navy.
> 
> How many people are deployed?
> There are currently seven CAF members on Operation ARTEMIS.



If those seven include the Commodore (and I wouldn't begrudge him an apartment to himself - though they probably have a villa for him) it's what - four appartments.

Or are those numbers separate and distinct from 





						Operation FOUNDATION - Canada.ca
					

Counter-terrorism efforts in the Middle East, North Africa and Southwest Asia.




					www.canada.ca
				





> There are approximately 16 CAF members deployed on Operation FOUNDATION. These personnel serve with a variety of United States headquarters:
> 
> U.S. Central Command (USCENTCOM) in Tampa
> U.S. Air Forces Central (AFCENT) in Qatar
> ...


Or are all unhappily living non-co-ed?

How did they house the four Canadian females in this photo from early March? 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1368848974740881409


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## TCM621 (20 Apr 2021)

I have experienced Co-ed living arrangements twice in the CAF. The first time was during on a course with 2 females in an H hut. A duty NCO stayed in shacks with us to deter any fraternization. We also had to split use of one communal shower room which made for some very awkward showers with 30 guys trying to shower in the 2 minutes the girls left us. The second was on another course 2 years later. This time the females had segregated rooms away from the rest of the platoon. The Pl Comd didn't like the idea of segregating 2 members from the rest of the platoon, so after discussing it with the females moved them in to the communal barracks area (they had their own washrooms). He was blunt and said, you are all adults and professionals, I fucking expect you to act like it. In both cases, nothing untoward happened. I have also lived in segregated barracks where people would have put rabbits to shame.  I won't even mention the shenanigan's that happened on ship when I was at sea. 

This is purely anecdotal but I don't think Co-ed sleeping arrangements means sexual misconduct will occur. Having ones own bedroom in an apartment is more than separate enough as far as I am concerned. If you can't trust your troops to stay in their own bedrooms, I suggest we stop trusting them with difficult things like guns, aircraft or ship maintenance or flying until you do. If someone betrays that trust, then you deal with them appropriately.


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## dimsum (20 Apr 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> You can't have officers (or Sergeants Major) sharing quarters with lesser classes. That was obvious from a recent incident (discussed in another thread) in which a US Navy officer who was so fearful of the threat from non-commissioned contamination that he objected to being assigned married quarters in the enlisted area.


I thought it turned out that officer was a Mustang (former enlisted)? 




TCM621 said:


> This is purely anecdotal but I don't think Co-ed sleeping arrangements means sexual misconduct will occur. Having ones own bedroom in an apartment is more than separate enough as far as I am concerned. If you can't trust your troops to stay in their own bedrooms, I suggest we stop trusting them with difficult things like guns, aircraft or ship maintenance or flying until you do. If someone betrays that trust, then you deal with them appropriately.


Yep.


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## FSTO (20 Apr 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Maybe the question should be - is the "*Cpl"* the only Canadian NCM or the only Jr NCM. You can't have officers (or Sergeants Major) sharing quarters with lesser classes. That was obvious from a recent incident (discussed in another thread) in which a US Navy officer who was so fearful of the threat from non-commissioned contamination that he objected to being assigned married quarters in the enlisted area.
> 
> From the limited info on-line about the Canadian presence in Bahrain, there doesn't seem to be a large contingent.
> 
> ...


The Cpl is with URSA detachment (2 Cpls, 1 MCpl, and 1 Sgt IC 1 woman and 3 men). They are part of Op Foundation.
Also in Op Foundation is 1 Cdr (SNR) 1 LCol (ACE) 2 LCdrs, 1 Lt(N) 1 WO and 1 PO2

The Cmdre and the rest of Op ARTEMIS - CTF 150 are in a different Apartment block (right beside ours) and there is a an even number of women who share 2 bedroom apartments.

Will not comment on the morale of CTF-150
The Cpl is likely on cloud nine that she has a whole apartment to herself, the two LCdrs not so much

The Cpl is in the back left, the other Canadians are with CTF-150 (the civilian is the CTF-150 POLAD)


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## SupersonicMax (20 Apr 2021)

TCM621 said:


> This is purely anecdotal but I don't think Co-ed sleeping arrangements means sexual misconduct will occur. Having ones own bedroom in an apartment is more than separate enough as far as I am concerned. If you can't trust your troops to stay in their own bedrooms, I suggest we stop trusting them with difficult things like guns, aircraft or ship maintenance or flying until you do. If someone betrays that trust, then you deal with them appropriately.



Is this a risk that the CoC is willing to take? What is the reward for the institution vs the risk it takes? In the current climate, they would (rightfully) rather deal with any potential sexual misconduct preemptively than punish after the fact. 

You are on deployment!  Consider yourself lucky to have you own room.


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## daftandbarmy (20 Apr 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Is this a risk that the CoC is willing to take? What is the reward for the institution vs the risk it takes? In the current climate, they would (rightfully) rather deal with any potential sexual misconduct preemptively than punish after the fact.
> 
> You are on deployment!  Consider yourself lucky to have you own room.



Nature will find a way....

I recall ordering the CSM to conduct a fire picquet type patrol of the hootchies on one FTX when I heard about some shagging going on in another unit. 

Apparently my Plan A, run everyone around so much with all their gear on during the day so they're exhausted and collapse in a heap, worked wonders


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## Halifax Tar (20 Apr 2021)

If the 2 LCdr's moral is effected that adversely by having to share quarters together they've led a pampered career and should spend some time on inward reflection while they look at that massive LCdr to Cpl pay difference.  

Finding it hard to have any sympathy, if you cant tell. 

As for the gender thing.  On my threes there was a mix up in names and I shared a mod room with a female.  Course staff asked if we could be mature about it and we did.  Cleaned the room together and maintained respect towards changing and abolution practices. 

No biggie.


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## FSTO (20 Apr 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Is this a risk that the CoC is willing to take? What is the reward for the institution vs the risk it takes? In the current climate, they would (rightfully) rather deal with any potential sexual misconduct preemptively than punish after the fact.
> 
> *You are on deployment!  Consider yourself lucky to have you own room.*


You guys seem to think I'm complaining! I'm not at all!


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## FSTO (20 Apr 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> If the 2 LCdr's moral is effected that adversely by having to share quarters together they've led a pampered career and should spend some time on inward reflection while they look at that massive LCdr to Cpl pay difference.
> 
> Finding it hard to have any sympathy, if you cant tell.
> 
> ...


Do you understand sarcasm emoji's.

Geez, this covid thing has affected everyones sense of ha ha!


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## Halifax Tar (20 Apr 2021)

FSTO said:


> Do you understand sarcasm emoji's.
> 
> Geez, this covid thing has affected everyones sense of ha ha!



There's something about whiney pampered Naval officers whining that tends to set people off   You have a large number of people on This forum who've lived in austere conditions for extended periods, who will find the issues you present to be pedantic and come off as sounding like spoiled children. 

Perhaps spending all time prior to being HOD living in a mess deck would provide some much needed humble pie and getting rid of stewards for everyone with the exception of the CO. 

Where was the sarcasm emoji ? I seem to have missed it.


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## FSTO (20 Apr 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> There's something about whiney pampered Naval officers whining that tends to set people off   You have a large number of people on This forum who've lived in austere conditions for extended periods, who will find the issues you present to be pedantic and come off as sounding like spoiled children.
> 
> Perhaps spending all time prior to being HOD living in a mess deck would provide some much needed humble pie and getting rid of stewards for everyone with the exception of the CO.
> 
> Where was the sarcasm emoji ? I seem to have missed it.


Hey, I did my MARS II in HMCS Q'APPELLE as deck force, part ship hands, boats crew and cleaning stations. I have an idea of what goes on below decks.

I also started off with the caveat of:

*A little bit of a whine here (okay, compared to the folks living in dry tents in the desert, we don't have a leg to stand on.)*

I guess I need to be more overt in my self-depreciation!


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## Blackadder1916 (20 Apr 2021)

FSTO said:


> The Cpl is in the back left, . . .



With the Air Force beret?  Oh, in that case it's only natural that she gets quarters better than others.


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## dimsum (20 Apr 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> With the Air Force beret? Oh, in that case it's only natural that she gets quarters better than others.


Hey, we have a reputation to uphold.


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## daftandbarmy (20 Apr 2021)

dimsum said:


> Hey, we have a reputation to uphold.


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## TCM621 (20 Apr 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Is this a risk that the CoC is willing to take? What is the reward for the institution vs the risk it takes? In the current climate, they would (rightfully) rather deal with any potential sexual misconduct preemptively than punish after the fact.
> 
> You are on deployment!  Consider yourself lucky to have you own room.


Every night I am not sleeping in a trench is beautiful thing, and I have shared a ranger blanket with my fair share of people. Trust me I appreciate my RCAF privilege. My point is that if having your own room isn't enough and you have to segregate by apartment, we have bigger problems than anyone ever realized. Obviously it makes sense to segregate given the opportunity but it should also be dictated by operational necessity. I don't think "fairness" is an operational necessity, however.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Apr 2021)

TCM621 said:


> My point is that if having your own room isn't enough and you have to segregate by apartment, *we have bigger problems than anyone ever realized*.


I am pretty sure we are at that point now.


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## quadrapiper (21 Apr 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> What is the reward for the institution vs the risk it takes?


Potentially, a replication of the Norwegian experience, if the cultural inputs were close enough for the same outcomes to occur.


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## Messerschmitt (21 Apr 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> They also have coed saunas and showers.


Like in Starship Troopers?


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2021)

quadrapiper said:


> Potentially, a replication of the Norwegian experience, if the cultural inputs were close enough for the same outcomes to occur.



Well, Norway has conscription so their imperatives are somewhat different from ours. 

And they're Scandinavian. Again, despite all outward appearances, a very different culture from ours in many ways. So I'd use caution when trying to compare our 'co-ed living needs' with theirs.

We might take a look at universities for good examples of co-ed living arrangements to emulate. 

Except, you know, Mill Coll


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Apr 2021)

If you want to know the reaction reaction, ask your wife.

"While on deployment for 6 months, I'll be sharing an apartment with a female Cpl. Just the two of us, but separate bedrooms, so it's  cool. Right? Are you having a stroke dear? I've never seen that face before" 🤯


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## Kilted (21 Apr 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> If you want to know the reaction reaction, ask your wife.
> 
> "While on deployment for 6 months, I'll be sharing an apartment with a female Cpl. Just the two of us, but separate bedrooms, so it's  cool. Right? Are you having a stroke dear? I've never seen that face before" 🤯


Didn't the same thing happen when they started to let women on ships?


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## quadrapiper (21 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> And they're Scandinavian. Again, despite all outward appearances, a very different culture from ours in many ways. So I'd use caution when trying to compare our 'co-ed living needs' with theirs.


Absolutely. Bet we'd be closer in a lot of ways if our southern neighbours were the Netherlands and Germany, rather than what we've got*. Would be interesting to see if there's ways, in the initial few years of training, to artificially achieve some of the same results, re: "de-gendering" fellow service members.

Have there been enough female crew aboard the subs to be useful for discussion?

*As an ahistorical, I've always wondered how different the world would be if the fops, excess sons, bastards, and other Cavalier types had come to dominate in the States' formative years, versus the other lot.


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## TCM621 (22 Apr 2021)

Kilted said:


> Didn't the same thing happen when they started to let women on ships?


It will always be an issue where men and women work together away from home. It is a relationship issue not a CAF issue, although if Generals would stop shtupping their staff and having it go public life would be easier for the rest of us.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Apr 2021)

TCM621 said:


> It will always be an issue where men and women work together away from home. It is a relationship issue not a CAF issue, although if Generals would stop *shtupping* their staff and having it go public life would be easier for the rest of us.



There's a word I haven't heard in awhile


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## SupersonicMax (22 Apr 2021)

TCM621 said:


> It will always be an issue where men and women work together away from home. It is a relationship issue not a CAF issue, although if Generals would stop shtupping their staff and having it go public life would be easier for the rest of us.


Many of the allegations took place well before they became GOs.  The problem runs much deeper than GOs.


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## Good2Golf (22 Apr 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Many of the allegations took place well before they became GOs.  The problem runs much deeper than GOs.


No doubt.  With recent DEUs reports of issues with one FO back when he was a LCdr, I suspect you are quite right, SupersonicMax.

G2G


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Many of the allegations took place well before they became GOs.  The problem runs much deeper than GOs.


I think Rory Fowler (LCol, ret'd, PPCLI then legal) provides excellent food for thought on his blog at (It’s) the Impunity, Stupid where he opines



> The Oxford English Dictionary defines impunity as “exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action”.  I suspect that someone offering a more colloquial definition would describe it as ‘getting away with bad conduct’.



As long as some individuals for whatever reason at whatever rank are not subject to the same repercussions of their actions, this will continue.


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## OldSolduer (22 Apr 2021)

FSTO said:


> I was gauging the response to the idea that men and women can share an apartment while deployed.


That is a very good question. Can they? I suppose the right people can.


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## SeaKingTacco (22 Apr 2021)

dapaterson said:


> I think Rory Fowler (LCol, ret'd, PPCLI then legal) provides excellent food for thought on his blog at (It’s) the Impunity, Stupid where he opines
> 
> 
> 
> As long as some individuals for whatever reason at whatever rank are not subject to the same repercussions of their actions, this will continue.


Wow. Great blog post by Rory.


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## FormerHorseGuard (26 Apr 2021)

RCR Battle School Petawawa , Matawawa Plains.  SC-52
I was on course and the bunk across from my bunk had a female in it, think there 5 females on the course. We slept in the same room at night and in the same trenches during the field parts of the course. Was never an issue I was aware of. Too busy trying to pass the course.


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## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2021)

So there's evidence it doesn't have to be a problem.  But it could be.  Separation is a sensible precaution for the same reason lockers in barracks are locked: sometimes honest people need help to stay honest.  Ounce of prevention, etc.

And as mentioned, the people sharing spaces aren't the only ones with a stake.  There's no value creating tensions back home; simply wishing away the worries of insecure spouses isn't much of an effort.  If you're a leader and you knew something could be a problem, what did you do to mitigate the risk?


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## AKa (26 Apr 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> So there's evidence it doesn't have to be a problem.  But it could be.  Separation is a sensible precaution for the same reason lockers in barracks are locked: sometimes honest people need help to stay honest.  Ounce of prevention, etc.
> 
> And as mentioned, the people sharing spaces aren't the only ones with a stake.  There's no value creating tensions back home; simply wishing away the worries of insecure spouses isn't much of an effort.  If you're a leader and you knew something could be a problem, what did you do to mitigate the risk?


I'm sorry, but I believe that the service member is responsible for managing the insecurities of their spouses.  During my career, I hugely resented those times where my coworkers' neurotic spouses affected how they were "allowed" to interact with me.  It was insulting to both me and the spouse.  In my opinion, it takes more than just opportunity to pursuade a loving, faithful person to change tracks.


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## Brad Sallows (26 Apr 2021)

Nevertheless, when lives or even just an acceptable outcome depend on someone distracted by his unraveling marriage, it becomes everyone's problem regardless what they believe.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2021)

AKa said:


> I'm sorry, but I believe that the service member is responsible for managing the insecurities of their spouses.


Nothing new about "the insecurities of their spouses".









						Wives of Police Protest Women in Patrol Cars (Published 1974)
					

NYC Policemen's Wives Assn and Citizens Orgn for Police Support in Staten Island march from Police Hq to City Hall on June 20 to protest assigning of policewomen to patrol cars with male officers; Deputy Inspector Gertrude Schimmel maintains female officers handle violent situations well; illus (M)




					www.nytimes.com
				




Fire departments went through similar protests about women in the stations.








						Firemen's Wives Fight For Chauvinism on Job (Published 1974)
					

article on opposition of firefighters' wives to San Diego, Calif, Fire Dept's decision to enlist 35 women who would share formerly all‐male sleeping qrs in fire stations; says nearly 300 wives have banded together as Concerned Wives of Firemen and threaten to go to ct in effort to block...




					www.nytimes.com
				






> SAN DIEGO, July 27—The San Diego Civil Service Commission and the Fire Department have been kept busy this month trying to douse the anger of nearly 300 firemens’ wives who are determined to preserve the fire station as one of the last citadels of male chauvinism.
> Banded together as Concerned Wives of Firemen, the irate women threaten to go to court in an effort to block a decision to enlist 35 female >firefighters who would share the heretofore all‐male sleeping quarters in San Diego's fire stations.
> While volunteer fire departments and some smalltown departments have hired women firefighters, the International Association of Fire Chiefs >said it believed the action here would make San Diego the nation's first major city to hire women on a wide scale as paid firefighters.





> At one stormy meeting with city officials, Marguerite B. Beaton, wife of. a 15‐year veteran of the department, demanded: “How am I going to >explain to my six children why their daddy goes to work and sleeps next to another woman? I'm the only woman who has a right to shower with my husband.”



Unlike a firehouse with a lot of guys and captains to chaperone, you can probably imagine what it was like within the cozy confines of an ambulance station built for just two people. Not all the wives were on-board with that.


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## lenaitch (26 Apr 2021)

I know for a fact that I was assigned as coach officer to the first female member posted to the small detachment in 1980 primarily because of the spouses of the qualified married members.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I know for a fact that I was assigned as coach officer to the first female member posted to the small detachment in 1980 primarily because of the spouses of the qualified married members.


One of my favorite shows is "Decoy".

"We pose as hostess's, society girls, models. There are 249 of us in the department. We're New York's finest. We're policewomen."

The Technical Advisor was Margaret Leonard. Detective 1st Grade NYPD Bureau of Police Women.

Times have changed.

In Toronto, June 1974,



> Police women are first placed on regular patrol duties with men and are expected to do the same work. Thirteen policewomen are transferred from the Youth Bureau to Division 52 and 55 in the downtown core to decide whether or not women can perform the same duties as the men. The decision is also made to arm these thirteen women with .38 calibre revolvers.





			https://www.torontopolice.on.ca/museum/herstory-milestones_in_the_history_of_tps_women.pdf
		


I'm no psychologist, but I found partnering with a woman had a soothing and calming effect on me.

Just say, "Yes dear."


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## FormerHorseGuard (28 Apr 2021)

I do not know about other barracks because I only lived in one at Base Toronto ( Yes there was a base there a long time ago) . In the JR ranks barrack Building 132 there were 3 floors. 1st and 2nd floor were men only and the third floor for women only.  Yes there was some gender mixing at night, but we were all adults. I do not recall any problems with the fact men and women were under the same roof.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Apr 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I do not know about other barracks because I only lived in one at Base Toronto ( Yes there was a base there a long time ago) . In the JR ranks barrack Building 132 there were 3 floors. 1st and 2nd floor were men only and the third floor for women only.  Yes there was some gender mixing at night, but we were all adults. I do not recall any problems with the fact men and women were under the same roof.



Because 'Single men in barracks don’t grow into Plaster Saints', back in the day, there was a Barrack Warden who would keep an eye on things in the quarters. Usually this was a Duty Corporal, or someone similar from the Quiet Hours Guard shift, who was located in an office in the barracks. They were usually kept busy doing menial administrative tasks for the RSM when not inspecting the lines or dealing with one kind of crisis or another.

No idea if we have anything similar in operation these days but, if not, it might be a good idea.


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## QV (28 Apr 2021)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> I do not know about other barracks because I only lived in one at Base Toronto ( Yes there was a base there a long time ago) . In the JR ranks barrack Building 132 there were 3 floors. 1st and 2nd floor were men only and the third floor for women only.  *Yes there was some gender mixing at night, but we were all adults.* I do not recall any problems with the fact men and women were under the same roof.


So its ok then, the gender mixing at night... For the record I agree, consenting adults are just adulting.


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## TCM621 (28 Apr 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Because 'Single men in barracks don’t grow into Plaster Saints', back in the day, there was a Barrack Warden who would keep an eye on things in the quarters. Usually this was a Duty Corporal, or someone similar from the Quiet Hours Guard shift, who was located in an office in the barracks. They were usually kept busy doing menial administrative tasks for the RSM when not inspecting the lines or dealing with one kind of crisis or another.
> 
> No idea if we have anything similar in operation these days but, if not, it might be a good idea.


I remember doing rounds of the barracks and one of the things we had to do was patrol the female wing. Men were allowed on that side until 10 then they were kicked out. On the weekends we did the rounds a little more frequently and it kept people honest. I'm sure there were people quietly having sex who never alerted the duty watch but no one was getting raped or harassed without someone knowing. That probably prevented some situations just by being there and I'm sure more were stopped before they escalated too badly. 

I don't know what it is like everywhere these days but the last time I stayed in barracks you might have seen the duty NCO once if at all.


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