# Military Terminology - Where did it come from?



## George Wallace (26 Jun 2013)

Often we use terms and expressions in our daily operations, and although we may know what they mean or refer to, we often have no idea where the term or expression originated from.  Some of these terms and expressions are so lost in our ancient military history, that finding where they originated if often left to "old wife's tales".

Here is an opportunity for us to discuss the origins of some of our commonplace terminology and expressions used in the workplace, on our Nets and in the Field/at Sea.


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## GulfOfTalkin (26 Jun 2013)

I see this asked about sometimes.  A lot of people think that the Duff in No Duff is a version of Guff, as in No Guff.  In fact the term comes from the old days of radio warfare where instead of instant pinpointing of radio signals that we can do today, another technique was used which was known as direction finding.  During friendly exercises with force on force simulations if there was a real world situation that needed to be dealt with (injury, fire, etc.) the forces could say "No Direction Finding" at the start of their radio message so that other forces would not cheat and use direction finding to give themselves an unfair advantage that they might not otherwise have.  "No Direction Finding" became "No DF" which became "No Duff."  

(told to me by a signals MWO on a QL4 Comms course)


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## my72jeep (26 Jun 2013)

I love the saying Son Of A Gun
This I am told by A wise Coxswain refers to a child conceived on board ship under a cannon.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jun 2013)

Lock, stock and barrel. List of issue for all the parts to make a musket, now means complete. As I understand it, sometimes only the lock and barrel wee shipped and the stock would be made locally.


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## Edward Campbell (26 Jun 2013)

GulfOfTalkin said:
			
		

> I see this asked about sometimes.  A lot of people think that the Duff in No Duff is a version of Guff, as in No Guff.  In fact the term comes from the old days of radio warfare where instead of instant pinpointing of radio signals that we can do today, another technique was used which was known as direction finding.  During friendly exercises with force on force simulations if there was a real world situation that needed to be dealt with (injury, fire, etc.) the forces could say "No Direction Finding" at the start of their radio message so that other forces would not cheat and use direction finding to give themselves an unfair advantage that they might not otherwise have.  "No Direction Finding" became "No DF" which became "No Duff."
> 
> (told to me by a signals MWO on a QL4 Comms course)




I heard that Duff Gen was wartime RAF/RCAF slang meaning incorrect information. That expression led to the signalling expression "No duff" which means "real."  

"Gen" was slang for information, but information from a higher HQ was also known as the "poop from group."

Correct information was sometimes called "pukka gen" which could lead to a "Pukka Sapper" discussion.


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## MARS (26 Jun 2013)

"Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"
Although Snopes indicates it might not be true, navy lore indicates it stems from the time of cannons and cannon balls, which were tacked on a brass plate called a monkey.  Brass expands and contracts at a different rate than iron in cold and hot weather, which would cause the pyramid of cannon balls to fall down in extreme cold weather.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jun 2013)

Irish pennant, frayed rope end.


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## Edward Campbell (26 Jun 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Irish pennant, frayed rope end.




Irish pennant: also a loose thread peeking out from somewhere on one's uniform where loose threads were unwelcome; often, if spotted by an NCO, worth a couple of days of extra work and drill.  :-\


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## jpjohnsn (26 Jun 2013)

MARS said:
			
		

> "Cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"
> Although Snopes indicates it might not be true, navy lore indicates it stems from the time of cannons and cannon balls, which were tacked on a brass plate called a monkey.  Brass expands and contracts at a different rate than iron in cold and hot weather, which would cause the pyramid of cannon balls to fall down in extreme cold weather.


Looking at it logically, you can debunk it as a myth.  How long will a pyramid of cannonballs stay stacked on a pitching deck?


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## Journeyman (26 Jun 2013)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> Looking at it logically, you can debunk it as a myth.  How long will a pyramid of cannonballs stay stacked on a pitching deck?


Only if your "logic" dismisses cannons being readied behind a caponier, within a counterscarp battery, or a martello tower.....you know, those rare things whose designers somehow neglected pitching decks, but could theoretically get chilly nonetheless.


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## jpjohnsn (26 Jun 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Only if your "logic" dismisses cannons being readied behind a caponier, within a counterscarp battery, or a martello tower.....you know, those rare things whose designers somehow neglected pitching decks, but could theoretically get chilly nonetheless.


Being that the supposed military etymology of the brass monkey story is universally cited as coming from the navy, my logic is sound.  

If you want to get more technical, a brass ring would not shrink enough in the cold, nor would iron shot expand enough in the heat, to cause the latter to become dislodged from the former.


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## Journeyman (26 Jun 2013)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> Being that the supposed military etymology of the brass monkey story is universally cited as coming from the navy, my logic is sound.


Personally, I'm predisposed to believe it's BS for the temperature/physics you cited, but you can say only that it's pretty unlikely for Naval storage of ready shot.  History has one, perhaps _two_, examples of cannons being used from fixed fortifications on land, and it's perfectly _logical_ to have a ring of some sort to hold four balls, either beside the gun or by a furnace if one were to heat them before firing.  

I'm just not as predisposed to dismiss something as illogical simply because you choose only what fits inside the story you want to tell.

Either way, feel free to jump in with the last word if you're really pumped about the topic.


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## Loachman (26 Jun 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I heard that Duff Gen was wartime RAF/RCAF slang meaning incorrect information. That expression led to the signalling expression "No duff" which means "real."
> 
> "Gen" was slang for information, but information from a higher HQ was also known as the "poop from group."
> 
> Correct information was sometimes called "pukka gen" which could lead to a "Pukka Sapper" discussion.



Fitting with the above, one definition from Dictionary.com is: "1. to give a deliberately deceptive appearance to; misrepresent; fake."

An example sentence from the same source is: "Much of the duff  information came from ignorant sales people and junior staff".

Urban Dictionary http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Duff%20Gen: "1.  Incorrect information. May have had origins in the RAF." - "That tip you gave me for the 2.30 at Sandown turned out to be duff gen."

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_slang: "Duff - bad or not accurate, as in "duff gen" (inaccurate intelligence or incorrect information)."


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## Michael OLeary (26 Jun 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> History has one, perhaps _two_, examples of cannons being used from fixed fortifications on land, and it's perfectly _logical_ to have a ring of some sort to hold four balls, either beside the gun or by a furnace if one were to heat them before firing.



HMS Diamond Rock, for example, although the sailors that manned her battery probably never had to worry about the cold.

Regardless, just because it is an old saying has never meant that there has to be a grain of (or complete) literal truth embedded in it.


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## Edward Campbell (26 Jun 2013)

Two sources of military slang:

     1. Overseas service, especially in the Indian Army in the 19th century; and

     2. Signalling - the need for brevity (consider abbreviations: everything from SITREP to ACK), low level security (e.g. appointment titles like Sunray, Foxhound, Bluebell and so on) and clarity - think fixed callsigns -
         came to us from the pressures imposed by the nature of signal systems, especially voice radio.


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## Infanteer (27 Jun 2013)

The one I liked best was "Roger" - the old phonetic alphabet's "R", for Received.

The amount of jargon we use is incredible if you take the time to listen to a bunch of military people talk.  I had a reporter listen to me give orders to my Pl in Afghanistan for 20 minutes and he said the only thing he really understood was the work "f**k", which was used a lot.


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## Shamrock (27 Jun 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Two sources of military slang:
> 
> 1. Overseas service, especially in the Indian Army in the 19th century; and
> 
> ...



Don't forget anachronisms.  The rest of Canada must be an unwashed mass - only the army performs daily ablutions.  

The Navy has some good ones.


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## George Wallace (27 Jun 2013)

Yes.  TLA's are often FLA's or even MLA's, but for simplicity TLA is used.   ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jun 2013)

Not sure if the navy used it, but Coast Guard always called laundry Duhby (spelling?) Arabic for laundry


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## MeanJean (27 Jun 2013)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Fitting with the above, one definition from Dictionary.com is: "1. to give a deliberately deceptive appearance to; misrepresent; fake."
> 
> An example sentence from the same source is: "Much of the duff  information came from ignorant sales people and junior staff".
> Urban Dictionary http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Duff%20Gen: "1.  Incorrect information. May have had origins in the RAF." - "That tip you gave me for the 2.30 at Sandown turned out to be duff gen."
> ...



And I thought duff came from the galley... In the navy we call our desserts duff.  Although, correct me if I am wrong, the blokes from the RN use that term for pudding.


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## Rheostatic (27 Jun 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Don't forget anachronisms.  The rest of Canada must be an unwashed mass - only the army performs daily ablutions.


Why does the Army call lessons "mutuals"?


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## prairefire (27 Jun 2013)

I have a book that was given to me many years ago that may be out of print called:  _*FIGHTING WORDS From War, Rebellion and other Combative Capers by Christine Ammer published by Dell Books #0440-206669*_  I would highly recommend this book to anyone with an interest in military expressions.

The author goes into great detail on the source and origins of many expressions including anecdotal evidence of the initial usage.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (27 Jun 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Not sure if the navy used it, but Coast Guard always called laundry Duhby (spelling?) Arabic for laundry



We do, but we spell it with an "o" instead of the "u": dhoby.

"guerrilla": Spanish for "little war", but they adapted it form Samuel de Champlain's reference to his fighting the Iroquois being a "petite guerre" because there never were fights of large body of men face to face as in European wars of the time.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jun 2013)

thanks I could not remember how it was spelled. Turkshead brushes and then there was the name for the capstan winch drums which i won't actually type in case it triggers a ban.


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## BernDawg (27 Jun 2013)

Here's a couple I picked up from doing historical research;

  Chit: 
   Hindi word derived from their word for paper or a small slip of paper. The British Army used to issues pay notices for goods or services and the locals had to take their chitty to the paymaster to exchange it for hard currency. Apparently the pronunciation was more akin to sh*tty vice chitty but the term chit stuck with the army for a small slip of paper or note and today we still use it for sick notes or chit's from the MIR.

Split-arse: 
   Us old soldiers know this as a derogatory term for the fairer sex and we always assumed it referenced their private parts however a couple of centuries ago women wore underwear that was commonly referred to as "split-arse bloomers". Much like capri styled undergarments they wore as a base layer. The bloomers were open from the front to the back to facilitate calls of nature while wearing their skirts/dresses with out having to completely disrobe. From what I could glean men did not wear "split-arse bloomers" so the term stuck for women. I can well imagine a crusty old RSM telling his troops to keep their camp wives in line using the vernacular of the day.


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## jpjohnsn (27 Jun 2013)

prairefire said:
			
		

> I have a book that was given to me many years ago that may be out of print called:  _*FIGHTING WORDS From War, Rebellion and other Combative Capers by Christine Ammer published by Dell Books #0440-206669*_  I would highly recommend this book to anyone with an interest in military expressions.
> 
> The author goes into great detail on the source and origins of many expressions including anecdotal evidence of the initial usage.


On the Air Force side, Tom Langeste's _*Words on the Wing: Slang, Aphorisms, Catchphrases and Jargon of Canadian Military Aviation Since 1914*_ published by Canadian Institute of Strategic Studies is a great source too.


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## pbi (30 Jul 2013)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Why does the Army call lessons "mutuals"?



This might be a misapplication. Thinking back to taking and later, teaching on, NCO courses in the 1970's and 80's, the practice periods of instruction in which candidates taught their peers were referred to as "Periods of Mutual Instruction". We referred to these as "Mutuals". Likely the usage of the term was broadened uot to mean all periods of instruction.

Cheers


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## jollyjacktar (30 Jul 2013)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> We do, but we spell it with an "o" instead of the "u": dhoby.
> 
> "guerrilla": Spanish for "little war", but they adapted it form Samuel de Champlain's reference to his fighting the Iroquois being a "petite guerre" because there never were fights of large body of men face to face as in European wars of the time.



And we call laundry detergent "dhoby dust".

As for Duff.  That's desert on ship, so "no duff" is indeed a serious situation.   ;D


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## Edward Campbell (30 Jul 2013)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> ...
> As for Duff.  That's desert on ship, so "no duff" is indeed a serious situation.   ;D




And see the tubby troops thread for the consequences of too much "duff."


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## Danjanou (30 Jul 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> This might be a misapplication. Thinking back to taking and later, teaching on, NCO courses in the 1970's and 80's, the practice periods of instruction in which candidates taught their peers were referred to as "Periods of Mutual Instruction". We referred to these as "Mutuals". Likely the usage of the term was broadened uot to mean all periods of instruction.
> 
> Cheers



Sounds about right to me and I'm from the same era. Mind I do remember not be allowed to refer to them as "periods" by a crusty old MWO.  8)


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## cupper (30 Jul 2013)

Going back to the Brass Monkey debate:

From the US Department of the Navy Naval History & Heritage Command

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq107.htm



> The first recorded use of the term "brass monkey" appears to dates to 1857 when it was used in an apparently vulgar context by C.A. Abbey in his book Before the Mast, where on page 108 it says "It would freeze the tail off a brass monkey." [Source: Lighter, J.E. ed. Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. (New York: Random House, 1994): 262.]
> 
> It has often been claimed that the "brass monkey" was a holder or storage rack in which cannon balls (or shot) were stacked on a ship. Supposedly when the "monkey" with its stack of cannon ball became cold, the contraction of iron cannon balls led to the balls falling through or off of the "monkey." This explanation appears to be a legend of the sea without historical justification. In actuality, ready service shot was kept on the gun or spar decks in shot racks (also known as shot garlands in the Royal Navy) which consisted of longitudinal wooden planks with holes bored into them, into which round shot (cannon balls) were inserted for ready use by the gun crew. These shot racks or garlands are discussed in: Longridge, C. Nepean. The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. (Annapolis MD: Naval Institute Press, 1981): 64. A top view of shot garlands on the upper deck of a ship-of-the-line is depicted in The Visual Dictionary of Ships and Sailing. New York: Dorling Kindersley, 1991): 17.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Jul 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And see the tubby troops thread for the consequences of too much "duff."


Ah well they've gone "blue menu" on my ship since she came out of the yard and as I understand the rest of the fleet will be press ganged into it as well very shortly.  Duff is on the endangered species list I fear.  Nevertheless, I won't run while at sea.  PT is a shore side pass time as far as I'm concerned.


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