# Norway Drops Airbus NH90.  Wants Refund



## Kirkhill (10 Jun 2022)

Norway ends contract for NH90 helicopters, wants full refund
					

NHIndustries has called the Norwegian termination of the contract “legally groundless.”




					www.defensenews.com
				




Joins Australia









						Australia plans early retirement for NH90 helicopters as it lines up Black Hawk order
					

Australia has decided to ditch its fleet of 47 NH Industries NH90s in favour of the Sikorsky UH-60M Black Hawk, blaming the "unreliability" and cost of the European helicopter.




					www.flightglobal.com
				





Franco-German project.

Difficulty getting permission to use German kit these days it seems.  At least if you're Estonian, Polish, Slovakian or Ukrainian.
And the Swiss are not much better.

The Swedes and the Finns, on the other hand, are quite content to share the wealth.  As are the Brits.

 Alliances are built on these things.


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## KevinB (10 Jun 2022)

Anyone buying anything from continental Europe these days really needs to do some deep thinking.


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## YZT580 (10 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> Anyone buying anything from continental Europe these days really needs to do some deep thinking.


you mean things like C295's?


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## The Bread Guy (10 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> you mean things like C295's?


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## KevinB (10 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> you mean things like C295's?


I actually have a long list of CAF equipment.


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## kev994 (10 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> you mean things like C295's?


My first thought was this and “getting a full refund is an option?”  Is airbus Costco now?


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## CBH99 (10 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> I actually have a long list of CAF equipment.


A long list of CAF equipment?  Nice try… 😉


I don’t disagree with what you said at all KevinB - just hoping you could expand on what the issues are with buying from continental Europe?


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## SeaKingTacco (10 Jun 2022)

CBH99 said:


> A long list of CAF equipment?  Nice try… 😉
> 
> 
> I don’t disagree with what you said at all KevinB - just hoping you could expand on what the issues are with buying from continental Europe?


Eryx was no fun.

LG-1 is crap.

Spewer was crap.

Carl G (Saab) has been awesome for decades.

BV 206 is the coolest vehicle I have ever crewed.

Leopard is an own goal, unrelated to to how good the tank is.

C-295 is…yeah, well.

Wait…I think narrowed down the region of Europe that might be the problem…


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## CBH99 (10 Jun 2022)

Eryx sucked

LG-1 seemed cool when they first came online.  Now, not so much…

Spewer - my only real long-term psychological issue from Afghanistan is observing what a piece of shit those things were… Let’s all agree to never speak its name again?

______

Is the C-295 really that bad?  

I know a lot of people have suggested it’s not the right plane for us, or not kitted out properly, etc.  But is the airplane itself that bad?

(I have no idea, not in my lane.  Genuine question.)


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## Good2Golf (10 Jun 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Is the C-295 really that bad?


It and it’s precursor the Casa 235 we’re/are decent enough light utility tactical transports in warmer climates, it would seem.


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## KevinB (10 Jun 2022)

IIRC folks where jumping out of Casa’s at CPC - I was shocked when I heard it wasn’t Herc only. 
 *I have more static line jumps from Helicopters than Herc’s so maybe I shouldn’t throw shade.  

**I don’t consider Scandinavian countries part of continental Europe.


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## KevinB (10 Jun 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Eryx sucked
> 
> LG-1 seemed cool when they first came online.  Now, not so much…
> 
> ...


Iltis, LSVW join the chat…


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## Spencer100 (10 Jun 2022)

I have always thought the CAF and the government purchased euro kit to be "not American" too not look like Anericans on international deployments.  If you think about it logically we buy such small quantities of kit we should just purchase the closest neighbors stuff and the largest buyer in the world.  For training, support and logistics it would make the most sense.  If it is something we don't make buy American.  I am mostly talking Army systems and aircraft.  Naval systems are a different kettle of fish.


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## Kirkhill (11 Jun 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> BV 206 is the coolest vehicle I have ever crewed.





KevinB said:


> **I don’t consider Scandinavian countries part of continental Europe.





Spencer100 said:


> we should just purchase the closest neighbors stuff and the largest buyer in the world.




In American service the Swedish Bv206 is known as the Small Unit Support Vehicle.  It was quite popular in Alaska.  The Yanks want a replacement.  Strangely we're in the market for a similar machine.

I find it interesting that most of our country is Bv accessible while the Yanks have a relatively small proportion of the country that requires the Bv.  And yet we let the Americans make all the running.  Shouldn't they be coming to us to find out what works in our back yard?

Tangent.


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## KevinB (11 Jun 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> In American service the Swedish Bv206 is known as the Small Unit Support Vehicle.  It was quite popular in Alaska.  The Yanks want a replacement.  Strangely we're in the market for a similar machine.
> 
> I find it interesting that most of our country is Bv accessible while the Yanks have a relatively small proportion of the country that requires the Bv.  And yet we let the Americans make all the running.  Shouldn't they be coming to us to find out what works in our back yard?
> 
> Tangent.


Well let’s look at Canada’s procurement record…

Eryx 
Cyclone 
Iltis 
Griffon 
LSVW 
Rusted out MLVW’s and not enough new MSV 
Clapped out HLVW due to use instead of missing MLVW 
LG-1 despite the superior Brit (and now American) L/M-119 
Etc. 

Canada isn’t exactly a procurement superstar.


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## Kirkhill (11 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> Well let’s look at Canada’s procurement record…
> 
> Eryx
> Cyclone
> ...



Absolutely it isn't.  And I fully understand why nobody follows our lead.  

And isn't that a pity?

Canada: Home of the United Empire Loyalists - America's Exiles.

We just can't be bothered with most of our country.


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## McG (11 Jun 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I find it interesting that most of our country is Bv accessible


Most of our country is Bv accessible only if you have a prime mover to get the Bv most of the way to destination.


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## KevinB (11 Jun 2022)

If Canada cared about Domestic Mobility you’d have a lot more Helicopters and not the Griffon…


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## McG (11 Jun 2022)

We might have Ospreys if we really cared.


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## OldSolduer (11 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> View attachment 71302


I am unabashedly stealing this. When 900 years old are you....


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## OldSolduer (11 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> Canada isn’t exactly a procurement superstar.


Because we have an inferiority thing going on PLUS industrial benefits for a select few.


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## Kirkhill (11 Jun 2022)

McG said:


> Most of our country is Bv accessible only if you have a prime mover to get the Bv most of the way to destination.



Half-a-dozen Bv206s as permanent issue to each of the Ranger Patrols  and to 50 or so to each Territorial Brigade Group, or even each "Division"



McG said:


> We might have Ospreys if we really cared.



And that got me looking -






SpecificationsMV-22BC-47B-DKDHC-6 300)DHC-5DV-280OspreyDakotaTwin OtterBuffaloValorCrew:3–44334Troops:2428204114Speed:275 kn (316 mph, 509 km/h) [262]224 mph (360 km/h, 195 kn)(338 km/h, 182 kn)227 kn (261 mph, 420 km/h)320 mph (520 km/h, 280 kn)Ferry range:2,230 nmi (2,570 mi, 4,130 km)3,600 mi (5,800 km, 3,100 nmi)771 nmi / 1,427 km1,770 nmi (2,040 mi, 3,280 km)2,400 mi (3,900 km, 2,100 nmi)Ferry Time:8.1 h15.9 h4.2 h7.8 hMaximum take-off weight:VTO: 47,500 lb (21,546 kg)31,000 lb (14,061 kg)12,500 lb / 5,670 kg[a]49,200 lb (22,317 kg)30,865 lb (14,000 kg)Empty weight:31,818 lb (14,432 kg)18,135 lb (8,226 kg)7,415 lb / 3,363 kg25,160 lb (11,412 kg)18,078 lb (8,200 kg)Power/mass:0.259 hp/lb (0.426 kW/kg)0.0926 hp/lb (0.1522 kW/kg)0.1 hp/lb (0.16 kW/kg)Power/mass:Powerplant:2 × Rolls-Royce T406-AD-4002 × Pratt & Whitney R-1830-90C2 × Pratt & Whitney PT6A-272 × General Electric CT64-820-42 × General Electric T64Powerplant:2 × 6,150 hp (4,590 kW)2 × 1,200 hp (890 kW)2 × 460 kW / 620shp2 × 3,133 shp (2,336 kW)3,925 to 4,750 shp (2,927 to 3,542 kW)Length:57 ft 4 in (17.48 m)63 ft 9 in (19.43 m)51 ft 9 in (15.77 m)79 ft 0 in (24.08 m)50.5 ft (15.4 m)Width:84 ft 6.8 in (25.776 m) including rotors95 ft 6 in (29.11 m)65 ft 0 in (19.81 m)96 ft 0 in (29.26 m)81.79 ft (24.93 m)Height:22 ft 1 in (6.73 m) engine nacelles vertical17 ft 0 in (5.18 m)19 ft 6 in / 5.94 m28 ft 8 in (8.74 m)23 ft 0 in (7 m)Wing area:301.4 sq ft (28.00 m2)987 sq ft (91.7 m2)420 sq ft (39 m2))945 sq ft (87.8 m2)Service ceiling:25,000 ft (7,600 m)26,400 ft (8,000 m)25,000 ft / 7,620 m31,000 ft (9,400 m)6,000 ft (1,800 m)


440 Squadron

Send it back to Winnipeg
Send all the Buffalo and Kingfisher crews back there along with the Cormorant crews
Swap the Twotters, Buffalos, Kingfishers and Cormorants for Ospreys (Osprey looks a better overall solution than the Valor to me)
Send Dets out to FOLs (Comox, Yellowknife, Iqaluit, Goose Bay, Greenwood)

Yellow Fleet

Green Fleet

Create a second squadron in Trenton or Petawawa.


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## Kirkhill (11 Jun 2022)

US Army Selects BAE Systems Hägglunds for Its Cold Weather All-Terrain Vehicle (CATV) Programme
					

The US Army has selected vehicles from BAE Systems Hägglunds for its Cold Weather All-Terrain Vehicle (CATV) Programme. The CATV ...




					militaryleak.com
				





			https://www.baesystems.com/en-ca/article/sweden-adding-to-bvs10-fleet-ordering-127-more-of-the-all-terrain-vehicles


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## KevinB (11 Jun 2022)

@Kirkhill the Osprey is big, much bigger than the Osprey. 
   34 troops versus 14  (combat/floor seating) 

It limits it for work in some areas, and while a great platform, isn’t a UH substitute.  
  It was a SeaKnight (Labrador) replacement, not a UH-1 or UH-60 one.   


I’m not sure how the down wash would be in some SAR recovery situations.


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## SeaKingTacco (11 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> @Kirkhill the Osprey is big, much bigger than the Osprey.
> 34 troops versus 14  (combat/floor seating)
> 
> It limits it for work in some areas, and while a great platform, isn’t a UH substitute.
> ...


Not fun.


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## Kirkhill (11 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> @Kirkhill the Osprey is big, much bigger than the Osprey.
> 34 troops versus 14  (combat/floor seating)
> 
> It limits it for work in some areas, and while a great platform, isn’t a UH substitute.
> ...




I get that it is big - that is why my comparatives included the Buffalo and the Dakota.  It is smaller than both although it gives up 6 to 10 tonnes in carrying capacity to the Vertical Lift running gear.

As to the down wash - Maybe we keep a hold of the Cormorants for those types of rescues.   On the other hand I believe the Cormorants and Cyclones have pretty significant down wash as well.

This is not a UH replacement.  UH, like the Bvs are a local resource that can be permanently tasked.  Scattered Griffon flights permanently operated by Rangers?


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## Kirkhill (11 Jun 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Not fun.



A more flexible theatre transport like the Buffalo and the Twin Otter?

Moving people into remote areas if not right on target.  Extracting small bodies of people from remote communities without needing an airstrip.

Also it fits into the "Big Section - Small Platoon" discussion - allowing for cargo space as well.


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## Kirkhill (11 Jun 2022)

OK - this is my thread - my drift.

Canada buys V22s for both the Yellow Fleet and the Green Fleet.  Primary advantage is its long FERRY range.  A central fleet or two can self deploy rapidly to a crisis area.   There the V22s can hook up with assets and troops flown in by other means.  The V22 may have limitations, like down wash in the SAR role.  But it offers more opportunities in being able to land anywhere there aren't any trees.  That includes ships.

The V22 is also big enough to accommodate Argo ATVs internally, along with 16 or so bodies.

Meanwhile, for the SAR role, swap the Cormorants for additional Chinooks.

Problem.

Both Chinook and Osprey are Boeing products and Boeing has perturbed our leader.

Opportunity

Osprey is a joint venture with Bell
Bell-Boeing is looking at wrapping up Osprey production in the next few years.
Bell owns Mirabel
Canada has a track record of buying expired and expiring licences.

Boeing gets back in our leaders good books by taking advantage of its Bell association, convinces Bell to open an Osprey support line at Mirabel and sells 34 Ospreys and 17 more Chinooks to Canada.

National Defence and all.


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## YZT580 (11 Jun 2022)

KevinB said:


> @Kirkhill the Osprey is big, much bigger than the Osprey.
> 34 troops versus 14  (combat/floor seating)
> 
> It limits it for work in some areas, and while a great platform, isn’t a UH substitute.
> ...


But then again, our neither the Buffalo nor the C295 can stop overhead of a downed a/c or dismasted schooner.  But the Osprey could easily drop a Sartec and all necessary gear right on the money without any concern for downwash to set things up and wait for the cormorant to arrive, or another vessel.  Each has their strengths and weaknesses.  At least with the Osprey they would be able to match the Buffs performance in tight places.


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## Good2Golf (12 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> At least with the Osprey they would be able to match *or exceed* the Buffs performance in tight places.


😉


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## SeaKingTacco (12 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> But then again, our neither the Buffalo nor the C295 can stop overhead of a downed a/c or dismasted schooner.  But the Osprey could easily drop a Sartec and all necessary gear right on the money without any concern for downwash to set things up and wait for the cormorant to arrive, or another vessel.  Each has their strengths and weaknesses.  At least with the Osprey they would be able to match the Buffs performance in tight places.


I think everyone gets over hung up about the STOL performance of the Buffalo. From the Buff drivers I spoke to, it seemed pretty “niche” and could be worked around, most times.


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## Underway (12 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I have always thought the CAF and the government purchased euro kit to be "not American" too not look like Anericans on international deployments.  If you think about it logically we buy such small quantities of kit we should just purchase the closest neighbors stuff and the largest buyer in the world.  For training, support and logistics it would make the most sense.  If it is something we don't make buy American.  I am mostly talking Army systems and aircraft.  Naval systems are a different kettle of fish.


Buying from the US is a gigantic pain in the ass because of the colossal stupidity that is ITAR.  It's like dealing with the mafia. It was implemented so the US can control their military technology (not give it to bad guys) and has morphed into what is essentially a law that allows Congress to create monopolistic predatory behavior for their defense establishment donors.  ITAR delays and restricts projects quite often.

This is why many look outside the US for their equipment and Canada should as well for a lot of stuff.

There are dozens of procurements of non-US stuff being purchased by the CAF that work just fine. Hell, most of the HCM upgrade is done with non-US equipment just to avoid ITAR.  SMART-S radar, SG-180 radar, Elisra, 57mm Bofors, CMS 330, MASS etc...  Without ITAR we're not beholden to US Congress if we want to fix something or change something.


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## YZT580 (12 Jun 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I think everyone gets over hung up about the STOL performance of the Buffalo. From the Buff drivers I spoke to, it seemed pretty “niche” and could be worked around, most times.


not STOL as much as turning in tight corners plus its performance in icing conditions.  Also, its payload wasn't too shabby for a 60's vintage light transport


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## SeaKingTacco (12 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> not STOL as much as turning in tight corners plus its performance in icing conditions.  Also, its payload wasn't too shabby for a 60's vintage light transport


Even that is pretty “niche”.


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## KevinB (12 Jun 2022)

Underway said:


> Buying from the US is a gigantic pain in the ass because of the colossal stupidity that is ITAR.  It's like dealing with the mafia. It was implemented so the US can control their military technology (not give it to bad guys) and has morphed into what is essentially a law that allows Congress to create monopolistic predatory behavior for their defense establishment donors.  ITAR delays and restricts projects quite often.
> 
> This is why many look outside the US for their equipment and Canada should as well for a lot of stuff.
> 
> There are dozens of procurements of non-US stuff being purchased by the CAF that work just fine. Hell, most of the HCM upgrade is done with non-US equipment just to avoid ITAR.  SMART-S radar, SG-180 radar, Elisra, 57mm Bofors, CMS 330, MASS etc...  Without ITAR we're not beholden to US Congress if we want to fix something or change something.


Canada has a number of cutouts for ITAR.  The biggest headache on ITAR is generally that most CAF staff work is poor on the explanation of use.  

ITAR items go through DoD, and Congress only gets a say if it’s not green lit by DoD, OR exceeds X billion (I believe it is now 30B USD). 

Speaking to a number of DLR folks they are honestly woefully informed about ITAR, and even some CANSOF folks needed to be talked through how to write the reason.  
   *Which is annoying as Ft Bragg had explained and even faxed a letter that just needed a signature block that is used for the 5E tier 1’s to have nonexportable items go through.  

For Canada ITAR really is only a thing if Canada makes it a thing.


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## YZT580 (13 Jun 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Even that is pretty “niche”.


A Robertson screwdriver is pretty 'niche' too, unless the screw to be removed is a robertson and then it is invaluable.  S&R on the west coast is a very niche environment.  Long distances and narrow spaces over most of the province.  It is a unique environment and needs a unique solution.  IMHO the C130 is not a good replacement in that environment:  too big and, although its turning radius is impressive it really wasn't designed for canyon flying.  The cormorant hasn't got the legs or the speed to cover the province properly.  Perhaps if we had a base  up at the tip of the island (Port Hardy) or further up on the mainland it could do the job.  The C295 is a piece of junk.    So that leaves the Osprey or a new build Buffalo, neither of which is ever going to happen.


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## SupersonicMax (13 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> A Robertson screwdriver is pretty 'niche' too, unless the screw to be removed is a robertson and then it is invaluable.  S&R on the west coast is a very niche environment.  Long distances and narrow spaces over most of the province.  It is a unique environment and needs a unique solution.  IMHO the C130 is not a good replacement in that environment:  too big and, although its turning radius is impressive it really wasn't designed for canyon flying.  The cormorant hasn't got the legs or the speed to cover the province properly.  Perhaps if we had a base  up at the tip of the island (Port Hardy) or further up on the mainland it could do the job.  The C295 is a piece of junk.    So that leaves the Osprey or a new build Buffalo, neither of which is ever going to happen.


Well, it seems like the H-Model Herc will do the job on the West coast for the foreseable future.  We’ll see if your beliefs hold true.


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2022)

Underway said:


> Buying from the US is a gigantic pain in the ass because of the colossal stupidity that is ITAR.  It's like dealing with the mafia. It was implemented so the US can control their military technology (not give it to bad guys) and has morphed into what is essentially a law that allows Congress to create monopolistic predatory behavior for their defense establishment donors.  ITAR delays and restricts projects quite often.
> 
> This is why many look outside the US for their equipment and Canada should as well for a lot of stuff.
> 
> There are dozens of procurements of non-US stuff being purchased by the CAF that work just fine. Hell, most of the HCM upgrade is done with non-US equipment just to avoid ITAR.  SMART-S radar, SG-180 radar, Elisra, 57mm Bofors, CMS 330, MASS etc...  Without ITAR we're not beholden to US Congress if we want to fix something or change something.


Personally I slept better knowing that the AQ could not get grip screws for their Sigs. At SHOT I went up to the State Department booth and said; "ITAR as it is now, is the greatest gift to the Chinese, you invent something and the Chinese sell the knock off to the world".


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## Kirkhill (13 Jun 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Personally I slept better knowing that the AQ could not get grip screws for their Sigs. At SHOT I went up to the State Department booth and said; "ITAR as it is now, is the greatest gift to the Chinese, you invent something and the Chinese sell the knock off to the world".



You say that like it's a bad thing.









						Cheap Chinese tires blamed for Russian convoy unable to reach Kyiv
					

Cheap Chinese tires have been blamed for a Russian convoy of armoured vehicles being unable to reach Kyiv.




					www.cityam.com


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## kev994 (13 Jun 2022)

YZT580 said:


> IMHO the C130 is not a good replacement in that environment:  too big and, although its turning radius is impressive it really wasn't designed for canyon flying.  The cormorant hasn't got the legs or the speed to cover the province properly.  Perhaps if we had a base  up at the tip of the island (Port Hardy) or further up on the mainland it could do the job.  The C295 is a piece of junk.    So that leaves the Osprey or a new build Buffalo, neither of which is ever going to happen.


My buddy was an Instructor Pilot on both the Herc and the Buff, he says he’ll take the herc any day. According to Wikipedia, the insufficient range of the Cormorant is actually further than the Buff.


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## YZT580 (13 Jun 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Well, it seems like the H-Model Herc will do the job on the West coast for the foreseable future.  We’ll see if your beliefs hold true.


I know.  You work with what you got the rest is just dreaming


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