# need answers on a moral dilemma



## bled12345 (6 Jul 2005)

I edited this because I found it too long and drawn out... Basically, long story short... I know of someone using drugs who is going to attend bmq this summer... I'm torn between telling someone, and just letting the system weed him out. Is there drug tests at bmq? Or am I gonna have to tell someone.


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## Brad Sallows (6 Jul 2005)

What would you do if you knew someone who shoplifted?
Someone who stole from someone's locker?
Someone who assaulted (physically) another for no particular reason?
Someone who assaulted (sexually) another who was unwilling to come forward?
Someone who took a car for a joyride?
Someone who committed armed robbery?
Someone who committed murder?

My point: is there some arbitrary threshold you believe exists at which you feel your duty kicks in to lodge a complaint?  If so, why do you imagine anyone else is qualified to tell you what that point is?

Why do you characterize this as a moral dilemma, which implies you detect a need to choose the lesser of two evils?  On the one hand, you are aware of wrongdoing which should be reported.  On the other hand...what, exactly?

At least one question to ask: is this something you know firsthand, or secondhand?


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## KevinB (6 Jul 2005)

Your asking the same question 50% of the soldiers in the reg force brigades ask themselves everyday...


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## bled12345 (6 Jul 2005)

yeah I guess i shouldn't have named it "moral dilemma" My main question really is, will the system find him out? or will he continue to fall through the cracks... Its second hand, I'm not 100% sure of his drug use, which is another reason why I wouldn't want to bring it up and then it not be true... I'm not really the ratting kinda person.


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## bled12345 (6 Jul 2005)

what do you mean with that statement kevinb? Are there more people in reg forces who use drugs that don't get caught or something? Or are you referring to moral decisions reg force soldiers have to make.


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## KevinB (6 Jul 2005)

I'll let my publicist (CFL) handle that question


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## The_Falcon (6 Jul 2005)

bled12345 said:
			
		

> what do you mean with that statement kevinb? Are there more people in reg forces who use drugs that don't get caught or something? Or are you referring to moral decisions reg force soldiers have to make.



What he is probably referring to is that there are those soldiers out there that use "enhancement" in their weight training routines.


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## bled12345 (6 Jul 2005)

ah, isn't there drug testing to catch them though? I know random drug tests are less common in reg forces than you'd think, but they should make drug testing manditory in BMQ.


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## paracowboy (6 Jul 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> What he is probably referring to is that there are those soldiers out there that use "enhancement" in their weight training routines.


ah, no. Not just juice-monkeys. We are rife with dopers, drunks, and junkies.


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## 392 (6 Jul 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> ah, no. Not just juice-monkeys. We are rife with dopers, drunks, and junkies.



Same out here. I seem to recall a few incidents about troops getting stopped at the main gate on a Friday or Saturday night by the meatheads and when they rolled down the window, the clouds of pot smoke billowed out a la Cheech and Chong.....

Or how about the coke / ecstacy dealers operating out of the PMQ's? Or the supposedly "massive" drug trade going on in one of the company lines over in Bosnia?

It is really quite rampant here in Pet, although I do know they have been trying to crack down lately. As a matter of fact, they busted two individuals from my unit less than two months ago. *Apparently*, the CO is going hardline on them, and they are being released. Can't say I'm sad to see another set of druggies gone. The general consensus in our subunit though, is that they should have formed up the whole Regiment and tested everyone - because there are a bunch who obviously slipped past.....


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## canadianblue (6 Jul 2005)

Thats unfortunate to hear, I would hope that we can get as many of these people out as soon as possible. Even those who use steroids, it seems to me that it is unfair to those who have worked so hard to get to that position, and continue to work hard to advance in the forces. As well it brings about a negative image of the CF in the Canadian Public.


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## KevinB (6 Jul 2005)

Unfortunate but paracowboy and 392 - nailed it.

The ARMY (well the whole CF) needs mandatory testing.


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## Joe Blow (7 Jul 2005)

> Its second hand, I'm not 100% sure of his drug use



You should not hamper the man's progression on the basis of hearsay.  That's my $0.02.  However, I suspect it would not be taken very seriously in any event.  You would be obliged to explain your acquisition of this "knowledge", and when you did it would be clear that this is not the sort of thing that could be admitted as a variable in his application process.

If hearsay was admissible you would invite the possibility of people phoning CFRCs to hamper the application process of people they just don't like.  I have to imagine that the this has been considered by the the recruiting staff.

Hearsay evidence is not admissible in court because ..well it's not really evidence at all ..it's rumour.

That said, I agree that frequent and random drug testing is advisable for the CF ..beginning in St. Jean.


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## TCBF (7 Jul 2005)

"That said, I agree that frequent and random drug testing is advisable for the CF ..beginning in St. Jean."

-Leadership by example, lets start with NDHQ.

 ;D

Tom


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Jul 2005)

Bled,
I have too ask, are you fishing for info on "peformance enhancing drugs" as your name turns up all over the bodybuilding forums looking for info on ...............ya know...


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## bled12345 (7 Jul 2005)

no man, theres plenty of other places to find that kinda info. I was actually referring to cocaine in this thread. thanks for the guy with the heresay post, it was inciteful... I guess I'll just sit back and hope the system deals with it.


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## Combat Clerk (7 Jul 2005)

Let the system find out, if I remember, when you filled out questionaire from the Recruiting Center, there is a question about drug or if I remember, the recruiter ask that question.  If someone like your friend is using drugs while he was recruiting and wrote no for using drugs or said no to the recruiter for using drugs and this is a not a thruth and he got cut during is basic course, GUEST WHAT WE CALLED THAT FRAUD.  Maybe DND will offer him to take the door or WELCOME TO EDMONTON.


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## GO!!! (18 Jul 2005)

It is more likely that your friend will run out of $$ than chances that the army will catch him.

Ever seen the movie Buffalo soldiers - hehehe - we're not quite that bad, but I think that the army really adopts a "hear no evil..." approach to drug use, unless the crime is so blatant and high profile it cannot be ignored.

A recent example I know of is a Pte. who owned a Range Rover (new) a new Ducati, and a new MR2, in addition to an overly "flamboyant" lifestyle. and all on 36K a year. 

He was eventually released, but never actually convicted of use or dealing.

I suppose there could be other be other explanations though...


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## mdh (18 Jul 2005)

> A recent example I know of is a Pte. who owned a Range Rover (new) a new Ducati, and a new MR2, in addition to an overly "flamboyant" lifestyle. and all on 36K a year.



Hey he was a great stock picker!


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## Fideo (19 Jul 2005)

Your a disgrace to the   and Crown if you are doing nonsense such as that while representing our nation. I cant believe people wanna course through their lives deceiving others into believing something about themselves that they are not. People make mistakes...myself included.....but all would agree that there is no better NATURAL high than one of being a member of the armed forces in Canada. WAKE UP POEPLE!!!!!!! Its WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Gouki (19 Jul 2005)

....yes. 

Did you manage to read the topic properly or did all that overflowing patriotism blind you?

First, he wasn't the one doing it (your post looked like it was accusing him), as far as deceiving others into believing something about themselves that they are not ... not quite sure how that ties in with contemplating about turning a suspected drug user in unless somewhere in this topic Bled claimed that he was from Krypton, and I can think of a lot better natural highs than being a CF member ... a lot better.

I think we all know its wrong. But thanks for reminding me, for a second I almost thought that snorting coke and talking to trees was perfectly acceptable!


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## GO!!! (19 Jul 2005)

Fideo said:
			
		

> there is no better NATURAL high than one of being a member of the armed forces in Canada.



Gear down there big rig.

I gave this advice to someone else awhile back, but you may/may not benefit from it too. 

Print out the last post of yours on this thread, and save it until you are asked to resign your contract in about 3 years. Then read it before you sign on for another 22. There is no doubt in my military mind that your enthusiasm will be curbed a bit, and if it's not, you should be writing motivational books for soldiers!


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## Fry (19 Jul 2005)

Fideo,

Calm down there bud, take a breather. Put your glasses on(if you wear em), and go back and read his post(s). He didn't say he used drugs at all, nor did he condone using them in the CF or anywhere else. You should read people's posts more carefully before replying with an attack like that.


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## Infanteer (19 Jul 2005)

Fideo said:
			
		

> Your a disgrace to the    and Crown if you are doing nonsense such as that while representing our nation. I cant believe people wanna course through their lives deceiving others into believing something about themselves that they are not. People make mistakes...myself included.....but all would agree that there is no better NATURAL high than one of being a member of the armed forces in Canada. WAKE UP POEPLE!!!!!!! Its WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!



Coming from the guy with the Jimi Hendrix quote under his avatar....


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## paracowboy (20 Jul 2005)

: sigh 
(en francais: les sigh!)


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## Joe Blow (20 Jul 2005)

> ...for a second I almost thought that snorting coke and talking to trees was perfectly acceptable!



Why isn't there an emoticon that has me laughing my a$$ off?


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## Manimal (20 Jul 2005)

Combat Clerk said:
			
		

> GUEST WHAT WE CALLED THAT FRAUD.   Maybe DND will offer him to take the door or WELCOME TO EDMONTON.



what's in edmonton?


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jul 2005)

Well, this one's trashed.


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