# Coming onto two years



## eilaw

Like the title says, it's coming up to two years since I completed the CFAT with the goal of becoming an officer in Int, Log or Arm. 

In another thread I detailed some of the issues with my application that has led to the lengthy process. Mainly, my long periods of residence in China, as a student and then as a expat worker. Obviously security issues and the background check were the main barriers to entry. The low numbers of Int positions available and preference for those already in the CF also don't help, though many Log positions are currently available.

After sorting out all the paperwork, and miraculously getting my hands on a police criminal record check from Chinese authorities and a credit report - two things that are very difficult to get without the proper connections - I was finally allowed to arrange for an interview and medical.

The interview took place today, and it was a lot longer than I expected. It took about an hour and was very similar to what can be expected at any corporate job interview. One interesting thing I did find out was that I scored 100% on the verbal portion of the CFAT, though I was very average in the other portions.

In the ensuing two years while waiting in limbo, I've utilized that time to get myself into shape. I'm confident I now make the minimums for fitness, but of course, minimums aren't good enough. I've been fortunate enough to have a friend who is a kinesiology graduate and a personal trainer to help me devise a workout plan.

Basically four sets each with 10 reps, and all major muscles are worked out. He strongly emphasizes core training, and most importantly in having a proper diet. According to him, working out without eating properly is just wasting time and energy without any gains. He advocates many small meals and avoiding of fat and sugars while keeping up protein intake.

The amount of push-ups I can do, to me, is the biggest indicator of my physical fitness progress. Initially I couldn't do a single push-up, only able to raise myself slightly above the ground. Being slightly overweight and extremely unfit did not help. Now I can do 30 on average.

Sit-ups have also improved, and on a good day I can finish 50.

Running and cardio are now my biggest challenges. Due to poor air quality in China, it was something that I didn't work too much on, but now I'm back in Canada, it's something I'm really focusing on. I'm simply running around the track and counting my laps and times. 

A good friend of mine, a veteran of the CF and the British army, has just returned to Canada. Being a infantryman for the past decade and nearly badged into the SAS, he's in great shape and a strong believer in hill and interval training. So luckily for me, I have an extremely fit former platoon sergeant to further motivate me and take me out for hikes, and these are training hikes not the communing with nature and bird watching types. 

My medical is two days from now and I don't foresee any problems there, but who knows what surprises may turn up.


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## geo

Good luck


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## apache2001

Don't drink coffee or any fluid that increases your heart beat before your medical.  I wish you the best.


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## eilaw

Just completed my medical, and everything passed. Being poked, prodded, made to push buttons and read out letters wasn't too bad. They also let me loose in the kitchen when I told them I haven't eaten yet - they had mistakenly told me to fast when it wasn't necessary.

So now it's just a waiting game for the powers in Ottawa to determine if my security check requires further scrutiny and then until the next selection board in April. I also have to decide whether to hold out for Int or accept Log in order to get into the CF quickly. 

I've read the trades fact sheet for Log, but will need to do more research into that trade before I make my decision.

I should also thank the Army.ca community for all the help and resources that are available. It has certainly made the process easier and the, at times, lively discussions are informative if not entertaining.


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## apache2001

eilaw said:
			
		

> Just completed my medical, and everything passed. Being poked, prodded, made to push buttons and read out letters wasn't too bad. They also let loose in the kitchen when I told them I haven't eaten yet - they had mistakenly told me to fast when it wasn't necessary.
> 
> So now it's just a waiting game for the powers in Ottawa to determine if my security check requires further scrutiny and then until the next selection board in April. I also have to decide whether to hold out for Int or accept Log in order to get into the CF quickly.
> 
> I've read the trades fact sheet for Log, but will need to do more research into that trade before I make my decision.
> 
> I should also thank the Army.ca community for all the help and resources that are available. It has certainly made the process easier and the, at times, lively discussions are informative if not entertaining.



Congratulations... It is nice to know you did well.  Compare both job specs and select where/what your passion is.  I wish you the best on your application.


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## Celticgirl

eilaw said:
			
		

> I scored 100% on the verbal portion of the CFAT



Did you teach ESL as an expat in China? I scored 100% on the verbal as well, and I believe my 7+ years of ESL teaching was probably a factor. My MCC said, "There are some really obscure words [on the verbal section]!" and I said to him, "My students always managed to come up with obscure words for me to define for them."


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## eilaw

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Did you teach ESL as an expat in China? I scored 100% on the verbal as well, and I believe my 7+ years of ESL teaching was probably a factor. My MCC said, "There are some really obscure words [on the verbal section]!" and I said to him, "My students always managed to come up with obscure words for me to define for them."



Yes, I taught for two years, one year in a school and one year privately. Being a history major - lots of reading - probably didn't hurt either. I may recognize big words but have a hell of a time trying to use them. Actually, I found my English-language abilities deteriorated after too long in China, I ended up speaking in Chinglish, forgetting words, or dropping words in sentences.

I see you're waiting for an offer too, hope it comes sooner than later. The upside of another 8 more months means I have more time to get myself into shape, though the upcoming winter months will means lots of wet days running about.


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## Celticgirl

eilaw said:
			
		

> I see you're waiting for an offer too, hope it comes sooner than later. The upside of another 8 more months means I have more time to get myself into shape, though the upcoming winter months will means lots of wet days running about.



I must have missed something...why 8 months? There should be another BMOQ in January. Could you not potentially get an offer for that time or has someone told you that it could take longer? I figure I will be on the January course myself, which gives me four (more) months to get in tip-top shape. I would love to be going next week, though!


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## Eye In The Sky

I am glad to see your application is moving along now...hopefully you see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Curious..have you dropped Armour Officer as one of your selections?  It is a great occupation for Officers (my opinion is biased, of course), there are a few Armour Officers kicking around here and lots of stuff on the Armour forum as well.


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## apache2001

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I figure I will be on the January course myself, which gives me four (more) months to get in tip-top shape. I would love to be going next week, though!



I met a guy today at the RC who got a call a few days before being sworn in today and is leaving on the 24th of this month for the 25th BMOQ.  So hang in tight.  You might get a call soon too for the Sep course.  Miracles happen.


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## Celticgirl

apache2001 said:
			
		

> I met a guy today at the RC who got a call a few days before being sworn in today and is leaving on the 24th of this month for the 25th BMOQ.  So hang in tight.  You might get a call soon too for the Sep course.  Miracles happen.



Don't tease me, apache!


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## eilaw

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I must have missed something...why 8 months? There should be another BMOQ in January. Could you not potentially get an offer for that time or has someone told you that it could take longer? I figure I will be on the January course myself, which gives me four (more) months to get in tip-top shape. I would love to be going next week, though!



Two issues, they need to confirm with Ottawa that I'm finished with the security check details. The person handling my paperwork said she's sure everything is fine, but will need final confirmation from Ottawa. Apparently they've received the paperwork, just awaiting word on if it's good enough or if they want more. So best case scenario is within the month they'll get the confirmation that I'm good to go, if not then it might be a couple more years of security related checks.

Second problem is the Int positions for this fiscal year has already been filled, and my MCC told me they'll only know how many positions will open up when the new fiscal year rolls around, which is April. He suggested I keep Int as my only choice for now, because if I add Log to my second choice, it's next to certain a position in Log will show up and it would look bad on my file if I rejected a job offer. Also he's not sure how competitive I'll be since they like to recruit Int from within and don't take too many civvies off the street. My best hope is if a bunch of Int officers decide to retire and a lot of positions open up.


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## eilaw

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I am glad to see your application is moving along now...hopefully you see the light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> Curious..have you dropped Armour Officer as one of your selections?  It is a great occupation for Officers (my opinion is biased, of course), there are a few Armour Officers kicking around here and lots of stuff on the Armour forum as well.



Armour sounds exciting, and it's still on the list but at third place. My Brit army veteran friend warned me of joining a combat arms trade at my age, 31, as I'd be running around, and trying to stay up with, with guys many years my junior. It would be great if I got posted to LdSH though, being a Vancouverite, Edmonton would be a nice posting.

Int is what I really want to do, so I'm holding out for that until April, or longer depending on the final status of my security check. Log is second choice because a lot of the duties are in areas I'm interested in, and it seems like there are a lot of positions available.


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## apache2001

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Don't tease me, apache!



We all got sworn in today and I hope you get a call so you will join us.  He even wished he will be moved to the Sep course so that he can prepare a bit at least.


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## eilaw

apache2001 said:
			
		

> We all got sworn in today and I hope you get a call so you will join us.  He even wished he will be moved to the Sep course so that he can prepare a bit at least.



Congrats on getting through, hopefully I'll be in your position within a year.

Today I went for a run and timed myself. Was pleasantly surprised as I hadn't time myself on the track before. Six laps for 2.4k took just under 15 minutes, clocking in at around 14.40. The best part was after the fifth lap I caught my second wind and felt myself increasing my pace. I'm feeling pretty confident now that I can bring that down to a respectable time with some more hard work.

There's a Running Room not too far from me and I'll drop by and see what they can do for me. They have different clinics that requires a fee, but they also have free runs organized, so it might be worthwhile to join them for the runs.


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## apache2001

eilaw said:
			
		

> Congrats on getting through, hopefully I'll be in your position within a year.
> 
> Today I went for a run and timed myself. Was pleasantly surprised as I hadn't time myself on the track before. Six laps for 2.4k took just under 15 minutes, clocking in at around 14.40. The best part was after the fifth lap I caught my second wind and felt myself increasing my pace. I'm feeling pretty confident now that I can bring that down to a respectable time with some more hard work.
> 
> There's a Running Room not too far from me and I'll drop by and see what they can do for me. They have different clinics that requires a fee, but they also have free runs organized, so it might be worthwhile to join them for the runs.



Thanks eilaw.  Keep it up and be patient.  It is worth the wait.


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## medaid

eilaw said:
			
		

> Int is what I really want to do, so I'm holding out for that until April, or longer depending on the final status of my security check. Log is second choice because a lot of the duties are in areas I'm interested in, and it seems like there are a lot of positions available.



Do you really know what Int does? Do you think that Int sits in small rooms with lots and lots of paper, thick smoke and cigars and chat to each other with code? Wearing really baggy or ill fitting suits (well... I guess DEUs count) and peep through a camera and carry a snub nosed revolver in the back of their pants? 

Anyways, my point is that although there are some fairly good DEO Int types out there,  the more you know about the CF prior to becoming an Int O the better and more accurately you'll be able to assess the information presented to you when building a report. Part of being an Int O is your ability to role play... no not THAT kind of role play. How well you can think in another's shoes helps allot. Having not been in the CF in another trade or branch severely limits your ability to include experiences from your previous incarnation. 

Like I said, there are a few really good ones that haven't been in the CF before... but they are few and far between. 

My honest advice is go into Log. Get MOC qualified and then re muster after you've done some time in that MOC. It will give you the experience, the understanding and familiarization with the CF and some of the way it works to help you become a competent Int O. Not good... but competent. Everyone strives to be good, and many become great. Take my advice as you will, but all the best to you.


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## Eye In The Sky

I don't agree with your advice one bit.  How does Log O experience make a goodcompetent Int O?  

Did you include the fact that the person may have to stay a Log 0 for 4 years before being able to even apply for an OT, and that as an Officer, the numbers of OTs allowed out are signficantly smaller than those of NCMs?  Those are facts that should be included.  The CFAO ref: Officer Transfer is CFAO 10-1.  

Also, do you not think that, after 4 years in a a DEO Int O, the poster would be significantly trained to do the job, with an understanding of the CF?  I have a friend who is a rather newly-minted Int O, and he is a damn good one, as he was an Int Op before, with operational experience in 2 theaters (Afghan and FRY).  He easily transitioned from one to the other, as he was familiair with the Int Op world, something I doubt any amount of years in Logisitics will prepare the poster for as you seem to be suggesting.

I'd rather see people getting into the trades they want, rather than being unhappy doing something they don't really want to do, to get experience.  4 years of being an Int O would better prep them for being a competent Int O than 4 years of being a Log O will, and that is just a fact.


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## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I don't agree with your advice one bit.  How does Log O experience make a good Int O?
> 
> Did you include the fact that the person would have to stay a Log 0 for 4 years before being able to even apply for an OT, and that as an Officer, the numbers of OTs allowed out are signficantly smaller than those of NCMs?  Those are facts that should be included.
> 
> Also, do you not think that, after 4 years in a a DEO Int O, the poster would be significantly trained to do the job, with an understanding of the CF?  I have a friend who is a rather newly-minted Int O, and he is a damn good one, as he was an Int Op before, with operational experience in 2 theaters (Afghan and FRY).  He easily transitioned from one to the other, as he was familiair with the Int Op world, something I doubt any amount of years in Logisitics will prepare the poster for as you seem to be suggesting.
> 
> I'd rather see people getting into the trades they want, rather than being unhappy doing something they don't really want to do, to get experience.  4 years of being an Int O would better prep them for being a competent Int O than 4 years of being a Log O will, and that is just a fact.



And I have to disagree with your first sentence, which you go on and contradict in using your 'friend' as an example.  DEO INT O, off the street is one thing.  DEO INT O by a (Reserve) INT OP is a completely different thing.  

One has absolutely no idea what ORBATS or Tactics are, while the other has plenty of experience (figuratively - especially if (s)he had been Cbt Arms prior to being an INT OP).  Can I ask you a question?  What would you like to have giving you a briefing:  1.  An INT O who has no idea what a Bn is; or 2.  An INT O who knows what a Bn is and what kind of equipment and capabilities it has?  A vast majority of people coming in off the street can "book learn", but they seem to be greatly lacking in really understanding and accurately applying what they have read.  'But if you prefer example 1 above, fill your boots.


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## Eye In The Sky

George,

Thats not quite what I am saying.  I am saying that, after 4 years experience, I am sure a Int O would know what a Bn is.  If I have to pick between a Int O who has say, 6 years in the CF, was DEO and entered as a Int O, *or* an Int O who has 6 years in the CF, was DEO, did 4 years as a Log O, then OVOTP to Int O, I would have to say I'd pick the Officer with 6 years MOC experience.  

I do realize that experience, apptitude, and competence do all not always go hand in hand.  

How do I contradict myself?  Int Op experience is related to the Int O world directly, where as Log O experience is not.


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## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I do realize that experience, apptitude, and competence do all not always go hand in hand.



Experience, aptitude and competence should go hand in hand in making a good INT O or a good INT Op.  Their mistakes have fatal consequences.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How do I contradict myself?  Int Op experience is related to the Int O world directly, where as Log O experience is not.



Log O is still CF experience.  Experience that would give a person a good idea of what organizations are and what they are capable of.   No CF experience is just that, and standing on the ground in KAF is not the place for an INT O to initially gain that experience.  The mistakes (s)he can make gaining that experience can be fatal to Cbt Tps.

The failure rate for aspiring INT Ops and INT O is high.  Most don't even make it to the School to start, as they are weeded out on their first Module of training.


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## Eye In The Sky

Again, 4 years of serving as an Int O would be better experience for a Int O than 4 years of Log O.  Why is this being argued?  Are you REALLY suggesting the best experience for an Int O is being someother other than an Int O?

Mistakes by ANY Officer can be fatal; Int, Log, Inf, Armour, MARS.  No one debated anything differently.

Any Officer trade is CF experience, but using the Log O as an example, what if said Log O's first posting was to MARLANT FLog and they oversaw IT procurement for CFB Halifax and supported unit IAW CFOOs?  I fail to see this '4 years CF experience' benefitting a developing Officer and Int O hopeful in the Int O world.

There is no guaruntee that someone going Log O for 4 years will make them a good Int O, there is no quaruntee that they will have operational experience or even see an Army unit in those 4 years, and there is no quaruntee that they will be authorized or selected for a Occupational Transfer from "trade A" to Int O after 4 years.

Is the failure rate of Int OPs/Os that high?  I honestly had no idea.  Having little insight into the Int world, I am glad that (assumingly) high standards are being enforced though.  I've seen the results of 'quantities' versus 'quality' before and the results are not fun.


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## George Wallace

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Again, 4 years of serving as an Int O would be better experience for a Int O than 4 years of Log O.  Why is this being argued?  Are you REALLY suggesting the best experience for an Int O is being someother other than an Int O?



 :

That is not the argument at all.  The argument is whether or not gaining four years experience is a valid goal prior to going INT O (if possible).  We are arguing whether or not "experience" is relevant.  You are saying it isn't.  We are saying that it is.

Again:



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Again, 4 years of serving as an Int O would be better experience for a Int O


 Four years with absolutely no previous experience.


			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> than 4 years of Log O.


Four years of experience prior to becoming an INT O.   


			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Any Officer trade is CF experience, but using the Log O as an example, what if said Log O's first posting was to MARLANT FLog and they oversaw IT procurement for CFB Halifax and supported unit IAW CFOOs?  I fail to see this '4 years CF experience' benefitting a developing Officer and Int O hopeful in the Int O world.



I don't know why not.  They are working in a CF environment, actively engaged with CF organizations, gaining experience in CF operations.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There is no guaruntee that someone going Log O for 4 years will make them a good Int O,



There is no guarantee that they will even be selected DEO INT O, so why take that option away from the person.  The "corporate knowledge" that the Log O would gain, would still put them in better stead than someone straight off the street.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> .... there is no quaruntee that they will have operational experience or even see an Army unit in those 4 years,



No there isn't, but they will still become familiar with CF organizations and how various other national militaries would be organized.  However, they may also be deployed and experience COIN operations.




			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> .........and there is no quaruntee that they will be authorized or selected for a Occupational Transfer from "trade A" to Int O after 4 years.



As there are no guarantees that a person off the street may be selected within four years.  Does a person want to wait for a chance at one occupation, and possible failure, or take an option of employment in another occupation and gain experience while striving towards a change later, with much more experience and knowledge under their belt.  Too narrow a view, could lead to great disappointment and delays in advancing in another field.


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## Eye In The Sky

Perhaps I am not wording my statements properly.  I am saying 4 years experience as an Int O is better than 4 years of being anything other than an Int O, in the development as an Int O.

WRT to DEO positions, if they were a Log O for 4 years, they wouldn't be competing for DEO postions.  They would be competing for OT positions.  That leads me to believe that, if there are DEO Int O positions, that they need to be filled and the Int O CM and SMEs believe an Int O can be developed as a Direct Entry type.  There must also be a need to have a few slots filled, whether it be to low OT numbers, training failures, or trade attrittion?  I can only speculate, but those ideas come to mind.

CF experience of any sort is always a plus, granted, and I am not saying otherwise.

My (limited) understanding is that the DEO #s for Int O are very very low....something else the OP needs to consider.

I think my Monday Morning Brain is misinterpreting your meaning some though George.


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## eilaw

MedTech said:
			
		

> Do you really know what Int does? Do you think that Int sits in small rooms with lots and lots of paper, thick smoke and cigars and chat to each other with code? Wearing really baggy or ill fitting suits (well... I guess DEUs count) and peep through a camera and carry a snub nosed revolver in the back of their pants?
> 
> Anyways, my point is that although there are some fairly good DEO Int types out there,  the more you know about the CF prior to becoming an Int O the better and more accurately you'll be able to assess the information presented to you when building a report. Part of being an Int O is your ability to role play... no not THAT kind of role play. How well you can think in another's shoes helps allot. Having not been in the CF in another trade or branch severely limits your ability to include experiences from your previous incarnation.
> 
> Like I said, there are a few really good ones that haven't been in the CF before... but they are few and far between.
> 
> My honest advice is go into Log. Get MOC qualified and then re muster after you've done some time in that MOC. It will give you the experience, the understanding and familiarization with the CF and some of the way it works to help you become a competent Int O. Not good... but competent. Everyone strives to be good, and many become great. Take my advice as you will, but all the best to you.



I think I know what an Int O does. I've talked with an Int NCM at the local Int Plt, read up as much as I can and spoken with friends and acquaintances that are currently or formerly in the CF. As a personal hobby I also keep up with military affairs - current stuff and historical as well as current affairs. Now I'm in no way saying this qualifies me for the job, but I think it gives me a good foundation to build upon, and my academic credentials should that I at least have some competence for researching, and synthesizing and disseminating information. Yes this isn't in a military context, but if accepted, the training should bring me up to standard.

If becoming a Int O through DEO with my current skillset and experience means being bad at my job, then I'm assuming I won't get a offer. If I do get one though, I'm putting my trust in the higher authorities that they believe I have the potential to be a good Int O and to get the opportunity to prove it.

My MCC told me that Int is hard to get into, and if I decide to hold out for an offer, it might never happen. We discussed waiting until April to see if I do get an offer, and if not then to discuss if I should go into Log. There's a point where I'll have to decide, do I keep holding out for an offer in Int or take something that can get me in the door doing something that I also find appealing and then potentially move into Int. 

Gene


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## medaid

Gene,

   You may THINK you know what an Int O does, but that does not mean you KNOW what one does at all. An Int NCM the great chaps and gals that they are don't know fully what an Int O does, and Int Os at times don't know fully what an Int Op does either. (Okay I'm saying this really losely here guys/gals don't jump on me just yet). If you want to know more about what an Int O does, I would suggest that you talk to both sides of the house Army and Navy to get a 2/3 grasp of what each element does and how they do it. 

   I think you're pretty hard headed for wanting this and that's it. This isn't a bad thing, sometimes it's good to stick to one's decision, but there's also a time when you MUST know where to stop. If you really want to know more, I can help. Seriously, despite my pain in the a$$ attitude at times, I'm really just an idiot that's a pain in the a$$  :. 

   PM in bound.

Cheers,

MT.


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## eilaw

MedTech said:
			
		

> Gene,
> 
> You may THINK you know what an Int O does, but that does not mean you KNOW what one does at all. An Int NCM the great chaps and gals that they are don't know fully what an Int O does, and Int Os at times don't know fully what an Int Op does either. (Okay I'm saying this really losely here guys/gals don't jump on me just yet). If you want to know more about what an Int O does, I would suggest that you talk to both sides of the house Army and Navy to get a 2/3 grasp of what each element does and how they do it.
> 
> I think you're pretty hard headed for wanting this and that's it. This isn't a bad thing, sometimes it's good to stick to one's decision, but there's also a time when you MUST know where to stop. If you really want to know more, I can help. Seriously, despite my pain in the a$$ attitude at times, I'm really just an idiot that's a pain in the a$$  :.
> 
> PM in bound.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> MT.



That's very true, I only know as much I can read and find from other people. Nothing will be as good as first hand experience and knowledge. I think part of being my being hard-headed is I don't want to join the CF into a trade I'm not going to be happy with. From what I know, and as I've admitted, it's not a full understanding, Int and Log sound pretty close to the kind of stuff I like to do. 

I do want to know more and look forward to hearing it.

Gene


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## medaid

eilaw said:
			
		

> I think part of being my being hard-headed is I don't want to join the CF into a trade I'm not going to be happy with.



Dude, that is very true. Don't settle for something you're not interested in. Unfortunately in this case, it may be just what you need to do. Although if the second choice is just as cool as the first choice go for it. I did. My first choice was MedTech at the time I joined and my second choice was *gasp* MPs  ;D

I was happy as heck when the Medical side of the house called me and swore me in. Best day of my life  ;D


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## eilaw

Right, a quick update. On my last visit to the recruiting centre, I was told that my Canadian credit and criminal background check have expired and will have to go through another one. Since I passed the first time, I'm hoping the second time around will be just as quick and painless. I haven't been told straight up if my Chinese documentation has been approved or not, but I've been told that their impression is that it's been accepted and vetted.

After two visits a month apart, I was told if I don't hear from them by end of January next year to go back in and see them. That would make the whole process almost 2.5 years just to have my application accepted.

Without getting into a debate on the merits of the screening process, since it has been two years, my  desire to join the CF is starting to wane. Previously I would occupy myself with physical training and finishing school and co-op, but now that school is nearly done, I'm starting to question if joining the CF in my desired trade will ever happen. Given that my first choice trade is already very difficult to get into, I'm starting to have second thoughts if this is actually a viable option for me. At my age, and without long-term stable employment in my resume, finding work that can be considered a career, is becoming more and more difficult so I'm going to have to make some hard choices very soon.

This negativity on my part is having an effect on my training as my motivation to get out has taken a big hit, compounding this is the start of the rainy season on the west coast.

Anyways, I'll wait a little longer and see what develops in the next few months and go from there. I'd like to think I've done as much as I can to make this work, but if it just wasn't meant to be then that's just how things go.


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## medaid

eilaw said:
			
		

> This negativity on my part is having an effect on my training as my motivation to get out has taken a big hit, compounding this is the start of the rainy season on the west coast.



EXCUSES! Don't make me come over there!


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## eilaw

Quick update, got in touch with the local CFRC and still no word from Ottawa on my status. After some lengthy discussions with a few military friends, I've decided to go Arm instead of Log if I don't get my first choice of Int.


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## eilaw

Come March and it will be two and a half years since handing in my application to CFRC Vancouver. Went in today and found out that my file was missing some information, but due to some changes in personnel, my file was left untouched and no one contacted me to fill in the blanks.

While I've passed the ERC, medical and interview, the powers that be are now doing a level 2 security check on me. I was told, for people who have been in Canada for more than five years, that check is done while doing basic training. Since it's only been four years since I've returned to Canada, that check must be done before I'm eligible to be offered a position. That security check may take up to two years, bringing my wait time to a potential four and a half years.

Good news is that the officer handling my case said, because it's coming up to five years since I've returned to Canada, the need to have this done prior to being offered a position will no longer be necessary as they'll just drop this requirement. So at the earliest, I will be cleared within a year.

The officer also jokingly mentioned that my file is as thick as a CF member with ten years of service.


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## BradCon

Eliaw,

Oh my your patience is admirable.  As a more recent applicant for an int op position I have been somewhat discouraged by the talk about wait times and other barriers to working in Int.  

I'm just writing to wish you the best, and to give you some support.

Hang in there.

B :cheers:


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## nickinguelph

eilaw said:
			
		

> Come March and it will be two and a half years since handing in my application to CFRC Vancouver. Went in today and found out that my file was missing some information, but due to some changes in personnel, my file was left untouched and no one contacted me to fill in the blanks.



I hope it moves faster for you than it has for me, I am now in  year 4 and have finally been merit listed... living outside of the country for 2 years didn't help, and then one set back after another... so I really do feel for you.  Good luck!


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## eilaw

nickinguelph said:
			
		

> I hope it moves faster for you than it has for me, I am now in  year 4 and have finally been merit listed... living outside of the country for 2 years didn't help, and then one set back after another... so I really do feel for you.  Good luck!



I'm catching up to you for wait time. Hopefully things shouldn't take much longer now that I've been back in Canada for over four years and nearing the five year cut off. I'm applying for a two-year programme at BCIT though, need to hedge my bets given how slowly the wheels have been turning. At least for you things have finally come to fruition.

Which country were you in for two years?


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## nickinguelph

eilaw said:
			
		

> Which country were you in for two years?



My now wife and I lived in South Korea for 18 months, and then backpacked through South East Asia for 3 months.  I visited alot of the 'questionable' countries, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, China, Sri Lanka...so I am sure the people who were doing my Pre-Sec weren't all that impressed, lol!


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## eilaw

Just an update on my status for anyone who is interested.

Over three years now I've been in the application process, but CFRC Vancouver says this year could be it. My file was sent to Ottawa last June and my handler reckons a year at the latest before I pass the pre-security logjam.

Added to the security issues, I'm also concerned about budget cuts and the general economic downturn.

I asked if it would be faster to re-apply given that I've been in Canada for more than five years now and if the pre-security issue is still valid, and I was told that yes it is since it's already in my file and re-applying won't give me a "clean slate".

It's time to get an exercise regimen going again in anticipation _something_ will happen this year. In the meantime, I'm studying journalism and will be done either in a year or two depending on if I aim for a certificate or diploma.


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## BearPusher

I definitely have to admire your dedication to keep pursuing your goal. I don't know if I could keep going for that long. Keep it up


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## eilaw

Another quick update on my application status. 

I just got an e-mail from, I believe, my third case worker about my file. 

The first contact came about a month ago asking for address information and then I had to go in for a signature.

Today I got an e-mail which started off well... that my pre-assessment had come back! Hooray!

A few lines laters, BUT they want to re-do my criminal record check in China. There are about four months in there that are not accounted for, which worries me. 

I was previously told that if I return to Canada within six-months, then that doesn't count as living overseas - at the time I was finishing up co-op for school. So I flew back every six months and went down to the CFRC and showed them my passport and they duly photocopied it.

To get that criminal record check from China was extremely difficult and not normally done unless you have good backdoor connections - which luckily one of my Chinese friends had. It involved the Chinese national police who walked me straight to a notary public and told them to get me this piece of paper, by-passing what would have required a visit to every single Public Security Bureau office in each neighbourhood I've lived in. Also, China is run as an administrative bureaucracy - so regardless of the actual laws and rules, it's up to the official on the ground to interpret and apply them as they see fit. And giving a foreigner information like this, and the associated perceived risks, would not have gotten me far. Plus, because of connections required, what my friend had to do for the police contacts means I will never ask for such a favour again.

Hopefully I will be talking to the CFRC later today to clarify, but I think this is it.

So just over three and a half years later, the saga of my application may be coming to an end. During that time I managed to finish off the academic program I was in when I applied and got myself a MA, had a daughter, and started a broadcast journalism program a year ago - and throughout I kept thinking, and kept telling my wife, maybe the CF will let me in this year.

Gene


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## Barbarossa

Hey Eilaw my buddy.

I've been told by my recruiter that for trades that require security level clearance 2 that you must have 7 years continual stay in Canada.

How about you? How come they process your file when you only have 4 years here in Canada?  Thanks.


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## Alea

Barbarossa said:
			
		

> Hey Eilaw my buddy.
> 
> I've been told by my recruiter that for trades that require security level clearance 2 that you must have 7 years continual stay in Canada.
> 
> How about you? How come they process your file when you only have 4 years here in Canada?  Thanks.



Barbarossa,

You've been answered the same questions over and over again here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/88938.15.html

Your file is different from Eilaw's which is different from mine which is different from someone else's. That is it. 

You cannot expect people to give you such answers on this forum. You need to speak to your recruiter in order to know why you need 7 years.
He will answer your questions and help you understand the process better.

Good luck,
Alea


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## eilaw

I'm not going to speculate why the schedule for our background checks are different, but like one poster said, best to talk to the people over at the recruiting office. Just a point, I wasn't born in Canada, but moved here when I was too young to remember.

Just a quick update, CFRC Vancouver asked me for further criminal background information from China from last stint there while I was on co-op term. I told them I didn't have such documents because I was told as long as I returned every six months to Canada I was not technically considered living overseas. This was followed up and I was told that I was misinformed and a criminal record check will be required. 

I'm more than a little annoyed that the goal post has been changed on me as I previously clarified with the members at the office if this was the case several times and they affirmed it each time. I also came back to Canada every six months and went to the office so they could photocopy my passport.

I've spoken with a few people in China, the Canadian consulate and embassy to see if they could provide paperwork saying I do not have a criminal record in China, but they declined to provide such documentation.

The CF Ombudsman said at best I could write to Canadian Forces Recruiting Group, explain the situation and hope they give me a pass on my last stint because I was given erroneous information. 

I do have a contact in China who is asking around for back channels to see if someone can provide me the criminal background information without going through the official route. Now you have to understand China is a administrative bureaucracy, that means while there are regulations, it's the bureaucrats at the ground level who decides how and when to enforce them. Depending on who you know, rules apply differently and in severity.

The official notary office told my contact getting a background check is possible if the proper paperwork were brought to them. This also requires the Public Security Bureau to provide a document. When my contact went to the PSB, the official there all but confirmed such documentation is available until the officer was asked to provide it - all the information is computerized and she pulled my information very quickly and confirmed it was all there. Then rules began being quoted, from "We don't officially provide these documents." to "The applicant has to come in person." to "We need the applicant to come in person and to provide a letter saying you can officially represent the applicant." 

My last resort was to contact my MP who has assigned his assistant to look into my case. He has spoken to his counterpart in the DND and has told me a judgement should be coming down shortly.  

As the title says, coming up to two years. Now it'll be four years in about two months. I spoke with a good friend of mine who used to manage a recruiting office and he gave me the context in how the recruiting offices work, and I'm very sympathetic to those who work there given the resources allotted to them. What I find frustrating is the need for every applicant to fit into a one-size-only regulation peg without consideration for certain realities - something my friend also voiced frustration over.

On the flipside, if I do get past the security issues, I can now add another trade to my choices as I'll have a diploma in journalism soon and can apply to be a media officer.

But hey, four years on and with a 10-month old addition to the family to consider now, the whole application process is almost an academic exercise to see if I can get myself accepted. Whether *I* accept is a different issue now.


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## eilaw

Well, the notary in Shanghai has changed its requirements once again. After getting the documents one clerk wanted and returning to the notary office to be seen by another clerk, the new clerk spouted a bunch of different regulations, contradicting what the previous clerk said and what the Public Security Bureau officer stated.

The process is reminding me of that Asterix episode where he and Obelix try to get a document from the Romans and are sent from task to task to task.

Still waiting for DND to get back to my MP's office with their decision.


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## canada94

Never give up on your dream! Your the most dedicated  person i've ever seen! 

Goodluck


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## eilaw

Another update on my continuing application saga.

I finally managed to get a criminal record check from Chinese authorities after nearly a year of round arounds. I submitted the paperwork to the recruiting office down in New Westminster, but found some disappointing news. When I had originally applied, four years ago, the office would process your application even though there was no employment offer. It was explained that at the time, things were so busy, it was certain that an offer would come around eventually. 

Not anymore. I was told my criminal record paperwork would be put into my file - which had been closed, and it'll be looked at IF positions open up. So that means my file is static pending future positions opening up, which I was told doesn't look good unless you're looking for a technical trade. 

I was told because of the poor economy, people are staying in longer and they're not seeing the turnover they're used to, and with the large number of hirings in the past few years, things are getting tighter now.

So just as I jump the last hurdle, hiring is now at a standstill.

I was told though I could try to go into the reserves and that would just depend on the local reserve regiment having a position open for me. I'll wait until the next fiscal year, when openings come up before I decide what to do.

I still remember when I first applied back in 2006, never did I think in 2010 I'd still be dealing with my CF application.


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## WonderGirl

I am just AMAZED at your patience.  I am hanging onto every word and am cheering for you!  I really hope you make it this year.   :nod:

Wow, what a story.  I am so glad I  never left to teach english in asia.


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