# Hey - We are hearing that Canada is/are DESTROYING over 67,000 FNC1 and FNC2s



## 1feral1 (29 Aug 2005)

Its supposed to be happening right now. If true what an end of an era, and a sad day for the Canadian small arms history.

Only several hundred are to be kept for museum purposes.  Although NOTHING can be done, can someone look into this more?

The Australian government did the same things to their L1A1 and L2A1 rifles, all smelted and destroyed last year.

Regards,

Wes


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## KevinB (29 Aug 2005)

YUP - talk to Gary C

 Unfortunate but nothing seems to be able to be done - they are prohibited, and someone has decided we dont need them  :'(

Same with C1 SMG's (no big loss) - 
* I think Gary C stopped dropped the idea of cutting up the 'excess' pistols.

Sad days


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## paracowboy (29 Aug 2005)

"The Strong Right Arm of Freedom" no more.


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## Gunnerlove (29 Aug 2005)

We are witnessing the awesome power of raw yet focused stupidity.


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## x westie (30 Aug 2005)

who makes these decision's, Canadian firearms Centre or DND


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## George Wallace (30 Aug 2005)

Um?   Mike?   Did you have a comment other than    ?

[EDIT]  Sorry....posted before you edited.


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## x westie (30 Aug 2005)

Sorry guys, screwed up, please bear with a amateur


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## George Wallace (30 Aug 2005)

don't worry...It happens to all of us at the oddest times.

Anyway, to answer your question; it would have to have been a DND/Supply and Services decision.


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## paracowboy (30 Aug 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Anyway, to answer your question; it would have to have been a *Dumb@ss's * decision.


exactly right, George.


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## Canadian.Trucker (30 Aug 2005)

I would think it would be smarter to hang onto them for war stocks.  It's not like it costs anything to simply keep them stored away for a rainy day with the rest of the misc. and extra equipment.  It was probably some pencil pusher that just wanted it to look like he's been doing something instead of simply taking up room


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## 1feral1 (30 Aug 2005)

Thats what was going on, but upon inspection a year ago their overall condition was poor and rusty, and reinspected recently, this condition had worsened as the LTS I guess was not good enough, and it was cost effective to destroy them rather than to have them overhauled.

Its still a waste.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Aug 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Thats what was going on, but upon inspection a year ago their overall condition was poor and rusty, and reinspected recently, this condition had worsened as the LTS I guess was not good enough, and it was cost effective to destroy them rather than to have them overhauled.
> 
> Its still a waste.
> 
> ...



Whatever happened to just dunking them in a tank of warm cosmoline? They'd survive for 200 years and a forty day flood when they were prepped like that.


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## 1feral1 (30 Aug 2005)

I agree about that stuff, but here they say its cancer causing  ;D, but isnt everything theese days, and they now say chips (fries as you call em) are too.

Cheers,


Wes


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## George Wallace (30 Aug 2005)

Don't worry Wes - so does breathing.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Aug 2005)

Not out here in the Free Republic of Central Alberta, it doesn't!  ;D


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## Gunnerlove (30 Aug 2005)

There are other long term preservatives which work quiet well.

And I do not mean CLP which is junk.


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## x westie (31 Aug 2005)

Just wondering , do the Brit's still have their FN rifles, i think the proper name was SLR L1A1 rifle, correct me if I'm' wrong. The Brit's would have a large number of these rifles in storage, after adopting the SA 85 rifle, if i remember their rifles had plastic furniture as compared to our wooden stocks, etc.


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## onecat (31 Aug 2005)

I'm surprised the lasted this long. Canada + firearms+Liberal party... they just don't mix.


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## redleafjumper (31 Aug 2005)

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.  Is there any official confirmation on this?


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## KevinB (31 Aug 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Not out here in the Free Republic of Central Alberta, it doesn't!   ;D



Maybe King Ralph should have asked for them - a stockpile in case a War of 'Eastern Agression'  ;D


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## Teddy Ruxpin (31 Aug 2005)

Time to offer a contrary opinion, just to see...

Stuff that's been in war stocks has generally received no preventative maintenance whatsoever.  By way of example, some bright spark floated the idea of bringing towed 155mm guns out of war stock, modifying them, and then issuing them.  The guns were found to be in such bad shape that this wasn't an option and they were disposed of instead.

So, what about the FN, which I loved when it was issued?

1.  The rifles are all old - very old.
2.  They use a calibre of ammunition that is no longer standard for rifles within most (albeit not all) NATO countries.
3.  They can't be sold on the open market in Canada due to legal restrictions (I'm not going there).
4.  Most, if not all, are likely to be in bad shape, not having been maintained for 15 - 20 years.
5.  The GoC is unlikely to sell the rifles overseas due to concerns with the trade in small arms (we sell C-7s to NATO countries, but that's a different story).
6.  We have plenty of C-7s in war stocks due to reductions to the CF in the mid-90s.

What to do?  Personally, and I don't like it much either, I think that destruction is the final option...  If anyone has any other ideas, fire away....

TR


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (31 Aug 2005)

Melt them down and turn them into statues?  ;D


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## Britney Spears (31 Aug 2005)

I should also add that storing them probably isn't "free" either. You have to store it soehwere, and that place has to be guarded, maintained, and are otherwise an administrative burden.

Deactivate them and use them for bayonet training and cadet drill?


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## redleafjumper (31 Aug 2005)

Up until the early '90s the FN C1 A1 and also FN DP rifles were issued to cadet corps (along with No. 7 and No. 4 Lee Enfield .303 rifles) where they were used for drill, small arms training and marksmanship.  They would still be great in that role.  It is a real shame to hear that these rifles have been allowed to get into poor shape (at least some of them) and now will be destroyed.  As for not being able to sell them in Canada there are some of us who are eligible collectors of those items and would be able to legally purchase them.


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## TCBF (31 Aug 2005)

I first fired the Rifle, 7.62mm, Fn C1A1 in 1971.   I was 16.   I eventually fired both it and the LAR 7.62mm FN C2A1 in competition.   I currently own - legally - two FN C1A1s (both 8Ls) and three Australian L1A1s.
The second rifle my son fired - at the age of ten - was an FN C1A1 (the first was his mother's favourite rifle, a Mini 14).   

Sad that they are going?   Yes, but nothing lasts forever.   Odd, that the Long Branch Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1* has outlasted it in some respects.   But, when you look at the cost of refurbishment vice the cost of standardizing on the new wpns only, it makes sense.   

The sad thing is, they cannot be made available to Canadian collectors.   You can buy ChiCom M14s, but not Canadian FNs.   Once Herb Gray, Landslide Annie and their ilk have their way, only cops and criminals will have guns.   Watch the crime rate go through the roof then.   Another nail in the coffin of democracy.

Tom


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## redleafjumper (31 Aug 2005)

TCBF, my experience is similar, I first fired the FN in 1975 and fell in love with it immediately.  I now own 5, 1 - 8L, 1-IA1, 1 - Aussie L1A1, 1 - Brit L1A1 and an Israeli-Belgian one.  (I think that's all...).  The government still issues the No. 4 to the Canadian Rangers, which gives the Lee   
Enfield an enviable time-in-service record.  It would be great to own one or more of these fine pieces of Canadian history; it is a crying shame that these grand old firearms are being scrapped.


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## baboon6 (31 Aug 2005)

x westie said:
			
		

> Just wondering , do the Brit's still have their FN rifles, i think the proper name was SLR L1A1 rifle, correct me if I'm' wrong. The Brit's would have a large number of these rifles in storage, after adopting the SA 85 rifle, if i remember their rifles had plastic furniture as compared to our wooden stocks, etc.



A whole bunch were given to Sierra Leone 4-5 years ago, so I assume the rest are still in storage.


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## geo (22 Sep 2005)

SA85???? don't you mean SA80???

FWIW, they can certainly melt down every last one of the C2s... no great loss - the C9 AND the C6 are great improvements.
After having 1st fired a C1 in 1970, have always enjoyed the sheer solid weight & punch provided by it. The disk sight "encouraged" everyone to apply themselves in marksmanship principles and we appeared to be much better shooters back then...... (anyone get the hint )
I mourn it's passing but, when you get down to it - what are the circumstances that would be required to bring em out of storage?... and who would they be issued to?... front line troops would never get to see em again.


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## NavyShooter (22 Sep 2005)

The Brits thinned their ranks of some of their L1A1's back in the early '90s.  I know, I have one of the rifles in my safe at home.  (Legally)

NS


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## Bomber (22 Sep 2005)

What Britney says is true, storing them was more than they were worth, plus they were just in racks, not grease or nothing and when they did the sample QA survey on them, they found that the rifles were toast, not worth hanging onto.  It isn't like in a time of war we are going to have 60 000 people line up to join, expecting rifles.


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## Jim_Steed (23 Sep 2005)

Looking for pictures of a FNC1. Jim


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## TCBF (24 Sep 2005)

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1300/1324.htm


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## Da_man (24 Sep 2005)

thats sad


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## 1feral1 (25 Sep 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1300/1324.htm



Nice pic, but who ever told these guys they were issued to the troops in 1954 and 55 is wrong. 

Although Canada was the first to adopt and mass produce this pattern of rifle, it was not until Dec 1956, and most rifles were starting to be made after Jan 1957. Many Militia units did not get them until the mid 1960's. CAL made the C1, C2 and the SMG c1 until 1968, while SAF at Lithgow, Australia made the L1A1 rifle until 1988.

Cheers,

Wes


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## geo (25 Sep 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/1300/1324.htm



As Wes has indicated - nice picture BUT..... not 100% FNC1.... it is an FN but not C1.
If you look at the body cover - covers the complete receiver - the C1 body cover only covered 1/2 the receiver, had a mag charger sllot for the ammo clips AND left the breach block carrier exposed - making it a lot easier to clear Jams and quickly do your IAs

Looking at the rear sight - not a folding disk rear sight - looks more like the Brit L1A1
Looking at the flash supressor - wrong one - should be slotted tube type.
Looking at the carrying handle - looks like our carrying handle - Brit one was circular with groves.

Nope - not a C1

IMHO


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## Danjanou (25 Sep 2005)

Anyone else catch this:
"first issued to the Airborne during the Suez Crisis, then to regular and reserve units starting in 1954-55."

I may be having a mess tin moment but the only Suez Crisis I'm aware of happened in 1956. Besides last time I checked the Canadian Airborne Regiment came into being circa 1968.

Anyway I think these fit the bill. (my google-fu is strong tonight)


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## geo (25 Sep 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Anyone else catch this:
> "first issued to the Airborne during the Suez Crisis, then to regular and reserve units starting in 1954-55."
> 
> I may be having a mess tin moment but the only Suez Crisis I'm aware of happened in 1956. Besides last time I checked the Canadian Airborne Regiment came into being circa 1968.



For what it's worth, I remember being at the R22Rs museum at the Citadelle and they had on hand an FN 49 (egyptian)...

1st transport of troops to UNEF was 15 Nov 1956
with respect to the Paras...... 
the CARs genealogy as per their website (http://www.commando.org/history.php)
1 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion, 1942-45 
2 First Special Service Force (Devil's Brigade), 1942-44 
3 Canadian Special Air Service Company, 1947-49 
4 Mobile Strike Force, 1948-58 
5 Defence of Canada Force, 1958-68 
6 Canadian Airborne Regiment, 1968-95 
7 Joint Task Force II, 1993-Present 
8 Three independent parachute companies within light infantry battalions, 1995-Present


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## TCBF (25 Sep 2005)

Of my three Lithgows, I think the oldest is 62 and the youngest is`69 or so.

Of course, for a lot of us dinosoars, the first rifle we jumped with was the Ex 1.  Where was it made?

Tom


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## Old Sweat (25 Sep 2005)

Canada had purchased a number of FNs offshore for trials. These were used at the Airborne School in Rivers (I jumped with one of these in 1968) for training purposes. The earliest I have heard of our troops using the FNC1 was 2 RCR on a winter exercise in early 1958, but I stand to be corrected.

My recruit troop in the RCA Depot was the first to not be issued Lee-Enfields. We started training in January 1958.


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## redleafjumper (25 Sep 2005)

A great reference on the FN rifles is:  The FAL Rifle Classic Edition from Collector Grade Publications.  It has the story of all the FN rifles, at least up to 1993.


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## FormerHorseGuard (26 Sep 2005)

my  fn c1a1 was number 3L5 358 last seen at the L&R Scots armouries in Pembroke Ontario and last fired in Jun 1989, converted to C7 that  fall training.
i am thinking it was made in 1957.  i have a thing for numbers cannot remember names or things but a weapon i used over 17 years a go I remember funny  thing.
i had to remember it for my  recruit, basic and ql3 inf course. 
cannot remember my  c7 was never issued one on a full time thing, just given one as needed.

great wpn, being tall i had the short butt put on it for shooting, long butt for drill the weapns tech must of liked me to do the mods as required but i shot better with a short wpn

looking back i hated it when training, too heavy  to run with and stuff,  easy  to clean,  the wood always looked good when oiled. 

C7a1 c7a2 never looked good in my  book, always looked like a toy.
put the pig sticker on the FN and you had a scary  wpn in your hands 
just my thoughts
shame they are now gone. but time does catch up


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## Old Ranger (26 Sep 2005)

I still remember getting my first "Chipmunk Cheek" O, so long ago. :'(

And who were the Idiots that didn't pack them in grease!  I remember at least putting a lite coating on ours before sending them in.  As far as storing some....Under ground in a big Concrete box with a big concrete lid.  How about at Base Ammo Storage or the MP Shack Parking lot.

(Sarcasm On)  Oh But thats actually thinking of the Future, just like putting GPMGs (old C-5) in the Grizzles instead of what they were designed for. (Sar..Off)

It's always better to have and not need, than to need and not have....when you need.


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## 1feral1 (26 Sep 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> As Wes has indicated - nice picture BUT..... not 100% FNC1.... it is an FN but not C1.
> If you look at the body cover - covers the complete receiver - the C1 body cover only covered 1/2 the receiver, had a mag charger sllot for the ammo clips AND left the breach block carrier exposed - making it a lot easier to clear Jams and quickly do your IAs
> 
> Looking at the rear sight - not a folding disk rear sight - looks more like the Brit L1A1
> ...



Right you are Geo, in all honesty, it looks like C1 handguards, and the rifle pictured is probably a US parts rifle, and American owned, with a civvie designed flash eliminator, in US law, you can have a compensator, and no bayonet lug, plus the rifle must have some US parts, hence the compensator, maybe a hammer and a piston too. All US civvie made for their growning FN rifle market, and to comply with BATF regs. This law has since been pissed away a year ago. Its really complicated, and hard to follow. The pic I get on my PC is a compacted squashed version, and not stretched out as it should be.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Jason38 (26 Sep 2005)

I was an Officer Cadet at the Armoured Corps school in Camp Borden in 1957. We were issued the FNC1 fresh out of their crates sometime in the late fall (IIRC).


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## geo (26 Sep 2005)

Jason, what you say sounds about right... but the school would probably not have been the 1st to receive the new C1s.... so C1s in late 56 is a definitive possibility.

My 1st C1 was 0L0005 and dated 1956.

Mater of fact, that reserve unit still has it in it's vault. When they were instructed to send em all back, the Unit's museum requested a "that" copy.... and they were permitted to hang onto it. Last I heard, the barrel is still in good shape - never got "museumed" to take it out of commission.

For some reason, I seem to remember pictures of UNEF forces deploying.... with Enfields in '56... but those could have been pictures of troops from some other country - no definitive answer.


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## BKells (26 Sep 2005)

I know a lot of you guys are old timers with sentimental attachments to the FN, but come on.. these should  have been destroyed years ago. There is no practical reason to hold onto them except as museum pieces.

If you go the Canadian War Museum, you know what you'll see? a C7 on display. The C7 is already a museum piece.


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## Michael Shannon (26 Sep 2005)

The FAL is hardly a museum piece. It is ergonomically the best rifle available for a right handed shooter. It is more than accurate enough for most infantry shooting and fires a round that's making a comeback: the US military will have at least three self loading 7.62 rifles in issue soon (M14, SCAR, and probably some DSA FALs). It can be improved: a better muzzle break and perhaps a Picitinny railed scope mount/body cover. It can be lightened a bit with composite furniture. In fact if we could find some C1s in good condition they might make a good "marksmans rifle" platform.


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## Danjanou (26 Sep 2005)

BKells said:
			
		

> I know a lot of you guys are old timers with sentimental attachments to the FN, but come on.. these should   have been destroyed years ago. There is no practical reason to hold onto them except as museum pieces.
> 
> If you go the Canadian War Museum, you know what you'll see? a C7 on display. The C7 is already a museum piece.



Bkells, first of all if you actually read the thread none of us dinosaurs are advocating the return of the FN, although an argument could be made for it, as noted as a specialist marksman weapon. 

Judging by your profile I'd say we all have considerably more experience with the C7 then you do. Based on the info in your profile I'd estimate you were one or two years old when I was issued my forst C7. We're just lamenting the passing of something that was an important part of our military youth and the absurd stupidity of the government of the day destroying them, when it would cost nothing to store them as part of a war reserve, just in case.


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## geo (26 Sep 2005)

Bkells,
the same way we remember our 1st car, we'll always remember our 1st service rifle.... for the good things about it AND for the bad things about it.

The C1 may be gone but there are many places in the world where the FAL L1A1 or some other incarnation will continue to be the weapon of choice by professional soldiers. If you look around, the Lee Enfield Mk ? are still in regular use (Cdn Rangers & Pakistan/Afghanistan border) in rough terrain where the soldier is looking for something tough and reliable - takes a licking and keeps on ticking... not 100% certain that the C7 falls into that kind of category... A professional soldier can use it and maintain it but he's got to work at it - not the best characteristic in dirty grimy combat situations.

IMHO


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## NavyShooter (26 Sep 2005)

Just so people are aware, the C-7 being reffered to at the CWM is (at least the one I saw) the first one presented to the Canadian Government.

I've got a picture of it around here somewhere, with the serial number.  I think it's S/N was 86AA00001 perhaps?

Not 100% sure on that number though.

NS


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2005)

FWIW Knights Armaments Compnay was awarded the M110 SASS (Semi-Auto Sniper System) Contract officially today.

 This will be 'shortly' putting an end to the M14 series in US History.  (and they scrap their stuff too)

As much as I am somewhat nostalgic for the FN C1A1 - I dont kid myself into beleiving they are a cost effective or practical DM gun.

They are notrious hard to scope - the feedcover picatinny rail is not exactly somethign you wish to place something that must retain a zero on...  Secondly due the way the action breaks open - when using irons you ended up with a somewhat wandering zero (doign rifle team we zero'd the gun and left them dirty for the competitions.

 Hopefully Canada will take a deep look at the M110 SASS - not a half baked AR10T with its useless extra 4" of barrel and 2x4 of a suppressor we bought...


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## geo (26 Sep 2005)

M110 8' Self-Propelled Howitzer
The self-propelled M-110 8-inch [203 mm] howitzer first entered service with the US Army in 1963. The vehicle itself transports only two projectiles and five men, while the remainder of the ammunition and the crew is on board a tracked M548. The M-110 Howitzer fired a 200-pound projectile out to almost 17 kilometers 

Arty sniper rifle 

JK


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2005)

Smart Ass...

US Rifle M1, M1carbine, M1 Thompsom SMG, and M1 Tank etc...


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## geo (26 Sep 2005)

hehe... couldn't resist 

have a good one KevinB


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## geo (27 Sep 2005)

SB
what was the alternative........... issuing M1 & M14s to every household in the USA?
There comes a time when your war stock inventory has "maxed out". I wonder when was the last time M1s were taken out of warstock for combat use....


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## Craig B (27 Sep 2005)

I seem to recall that a few years ago a pile of M14's were given to Estonia and Latvia , maybe Lithuania also . 

IIRC the last M1's handed out were for South Vietnam but I could be wrong on that . 

Craig


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## geo (27 Sep 2005)

WRT the M1s to ARVN
Yes - US did give ARVN some M1s upon their 1st deployment
but consider that the M1s were front life rifles in Korea
so we're talking 1963 - 1954.... some 9 years (and the M16 was just coming out at that time)
so the M1 was still pretty much current.

Can't visualise any country being all that interested in M1s during Clinton's term
which is probably why the M1s got chopped up and sent back to the foundry.

WRT the M14s to the Baltic states - this was at a time when they were breaking away from the USSR and would go to any length to be different from the Soviets. Also, baltic states were asking "IN" to NATO and needed weapons that chambered NATO standard ammo... but the "new" Russia now makes it's AK weapons in NATO standard so what's the point....

again - good reason to give the M14s the chop.


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## TCBF (27 Sep 2005)

"Hopefully Canada will take a deep look at the M110 SASS - not a half baked AR10T with its useless extra 4" of barrel and 2x4 of a suppressor we bought..."

- I once owned an NWM built Sudanese contract AR-10.  Low recoil, tight grouper, sights were in Arabic.
Can't have everything, I guess.  Don't know why we would buy one now.  Eugene Stoner didn't stop designing rifles after he did the AR-10, and there was probably a reason for that.

Tom


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## KevinB (27 Sep 2005)

The KAC STONER RIFLE (SR) 25 was Stoners last rifle before he died  

It is the basis for the M110.

Those of us who went thru with the FN are dinosasurs -- they have been out of service since the VERY early 90's.  Retraining troops to use them is inefficient especially when some have a hard enough time mastering the C7/C8 series.


 The SR25-Mk11-M110 is not the AR10's of old


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## TCBF (27 Sep 2005)

"Mooooooo.....    Moooooooo......  I'm a dinosoar.... Moooo.... Moooo...."

 ;D

Tom


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## redleafjumper (28 Sep 2005)

Proud to be a dinosaur, perhaps one FN-packing tetrapodosaurus?  ;D


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## Old Ranger (28 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Those of us who went thru with the FN are dinosasurs -- they have been out of service since the VERY early 90's.   Retraining troops to use them is inefficient especially when some have a hard enough time mastering the C7/C8 series.



The main reason they should let you keep your service rifle as a parting gift.
Just like the Swed's(I believe), keep it stowed away in case you get called up for a local insergency.  Yep, I was also a Boy Scout way back when.


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## geo (28 Sep 2005)

Old Ranger....
not the Swedes....
All male adults of Swtzerland are members of the army between the ages of 15 and 55 (or something to that effect) and yes, they all have their uniform and service weapon stored at home... but that's pretty much it.

And I don't see any advantage to having every Tom Dick & Harry who has served alongside me to be packing a service rifle @ home. They're dangerous enough as it is without the extra firepower.

IMHO


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## FormerHorseGuard (28 Sep 2005)

i can see a few problems with the sv wpns going home....remember that  jerk on your whatever course and he never cleaned his weapon and  could never put it back together in a timely manner? 
he would have FNC1A1 or C7A1 or whateversion, sitting in his storage room, it would be the same colour of rust as aship that  sat on the bottom on the ocean for 70 years, he would not know where any  of the mags were, the bolt would be being used as a paper weight  and he  would be the first guy  to get the call back and they would have to give him another working wpn for the tasking. the guy who kept his wpn in perfect shape would never get called back.

do not get me wrong , I enjoyed the FN family of weapons more then any other family  i was dissappointed when they did not go to the FN 5.56 weapon but i was not on the buying trip. i missed that  one, and a few other buying trips, i got on the paper clip trip, and i got lots of them


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## KevinB (28 Sep 2005)

Exactly who many of us that went thru with the FN are in a position to deployed as a DM with no additional training?


 I think soldiers should be allows to purchase their service rifle/pistol when they retire...


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## geo (29 Sep 2005)

Kevin...
I concurr about the dubiousness of any one of us being fit to deploy with a C1 without a lot of brushing up

With respect to buying our Service rifle upon retirement.... I have no problem about you having it... not sure how I'd feel about your son or some niece ending up with it and not knowing what to do with it.


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## TCBF (29 Sep 2005)

The licensing provisions of the relevant statutes are fairly stringent in that regard.

Ultimately, a semi-auto .308 is a semi-auto .308.  No logical reason why an FN is Prohibited, and a Chicom M-14 is non-restricted.

Licencing may work, registratrion is a joke.

Tom


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## FormerHorseGuard (29 Sep 2005)

i was told the FN family was too easy  to change over to full auto so that is why it was prohibited.....i am sure a weapon could prove this myth right or wrong


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## geo (29 Sep 2005)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> i was told the FN family was too easy   to change over to full auto so that is why it was prohibited.....i am sure a weapon could prove this myth right or wrong


Turn a C1 to full auto?
well - there was that old matchstick trick..... and yes - very much automatic
though it would then be full auto or safe.... with no inbetween
the Barel of the C1 was not heavy enough to justify / support auto.... so you'd be looking to mess up your personal weapon...


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## mover1 (29 Sep 2005)

Moo Mooo? Cowlike but not very dinosaur like ..........


Out with the Old and in with the new. 
So they get rid of all of these things then what are they going to mothball to put in their place?
Seems we would have an empty corner in a warehouse somewhere 

lets fill it.


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## Old Ranger (29 Sep 2005)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> i was told the FN family was too easy   to change over to full auto so that is why it was prohibited.....i am sure a weapon could prove this myth right or wrong


Sure, get a C-2 selector switch and barrel....Good to go!


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## TCBF (29 Sep 2005)

"i was told the FN family was too easy  to change over to full auto so that is why it was prohibited.....i am sure a weapon could prove this myth right or wrong"

No, anything is easy to mod, not just an FN.  Allegedly, one was involved in an 'incident' so all 8000 in Canada are now prohibited.  The incident did not necessarily involve firing at all, let alone bursts.

Of course, the Mini 14 is still non-restricted, despite the best efforts of Ghamil Gharbi (a.k.a. Marc Lepine) and Wendy Cukier.

"Sure, get a C-2 selector switch and barrel....Good to go!"

- Nope, you still need to change another part, but the secret is safe with me!

Tom


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## redleafjumper (29 Sep 2005)

It's a pretty minor change...   ;D and like TCBF it is safe with me. 
As far as changing to full auto it is even possible to modify a Lee Enfield No. 3 to be a full auto firearm.  The ANZAC Howell and Charlton LMGs stand as examples of that work.


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## long haired civvy (29 Sep 2005)

A folded piece of paper(5mm by 5mm 3 mm thick) placed between the safety sear was all that one needed to do. As far as retaining the C1A1 as "war stocks", I am not sure they would be up to any war tasking. The last C1 I had(1L4 032) was a worn out rifle, and thats being kind. As a member of   B Coy 3VP, we deployed for a Medicine Man serial with the Brits in BATUS in 86, and we had so many BLRed rifles, it wasnt funny, broken and cracked gas blocks,sights falling off, cracked recievers, etc etc. They just were too old and worn out to keep up.


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## 1feral1 (29 Sep 2005)

You are right Tom, there is still yet another small part. C2 change levers are not the only answer, and we are not talking safety sears  ;D.

However, back in 1983 when the FN FAL and variants went restricted, it was a preventitive measure, as at that time there were thousands of Aussie L1A1s being imported thru Lever Arms (Van BC) and other sources, even offering 'investor packs' of 4 rifles w/EIS. The Cdn govt did not wnat its general law abiding gun owning populus to openly have such rifles without restriction.

Then later in the 90's they went prohibited. The key to selective fire capability is a safety sear in the upper reciever. In the USA, this milled spot on the reciever has been deleted in the manufacturing process (a BATF thing), so the rifle can never fire other than semi auto. However in Canada, a FN FAL and variant is just that, regardless of milled slots for safety sears or not, and all are now prohibited.

Many Cdn imported rifles were sold w/sears, and some later were sold without sears and a small area ground away on the b/blk carrier where it engages the s/sear. This did nothing, but disfigure the rifle part (although rendereing a quick fix for conversion). An argument for the sear was brought forward, as it enabled the rifle not to fire when out of bty, where as one without a sear could possibly do so. There was never any law related to such removal of parts, as far as Saskatchewan anyways. 

When I lived in Canada, I at one time had 1 8L C1A1, 2 Indian minty 1A1s, 1 Aussie L1A1, 1 Brit L1A1 and 1 Aussie L2A1. All had s/sears and were in their original configuartion, with the exception of the L2, which had basic semi-auto parts and change lever. I never had a problem, even with the countless re-registering becuase of an incompetant system.

Our own honwesty provided a ruse for the sneaky Liberal federal government to confiscate and further restrict firearms in Canada, and the criminals using stolen, or illegally imported guns don't care about honesty, do they.

Its only going to get worse, andI hate to asy I told ya so. One day soon, the only guns in Canada will be owned by police, Defence Force and criminals, and thats fast approaching, and will come sooner than later.

Cheers,

Wes


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## FormerHorseGuard (29 Sep 2005)

"Its only going to get worse, andI hate to asy I told ya so. One day soon, the only guns in Canada will be owned by police, Defence Force and criminals, and thats fast approaching, and will come sooner than later." 
i thought this was here now. i was away  in the states for a long time and never took my  wpns with me and now i am screwed i cannot register them as i cannot explain why  i never did, i have to get all the paperwork and hope my  lawyer can fix it up for me


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## 1feral1 (30 Sep 2005)

Hate to say it Former, but if any of them are prohibited types, you'll loose them for sure, as for regular long arms, you should have no problems in registering them.

Have fun fighting Big Brother, but remember, they have unlimited resources, we as respectful law abiding citizens do not.

I wish you luck.

Wes


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## Old Ranger (30 Sep 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Nope, you still need to change another part, but the secret is safe with me!
> 
> Tom



I guess it's safe with me as well.......cause I can't think of it at this time 

At least you can take pleasure in knowing this is going to drive me (more) crazy until I remember.

Ben


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## KevinB (1 Oct 2005)

A lot of CF C1A1's did not need the short XXXXXX pin swap as they had them (at least a few I played with did...)

 I had a beautiful L1A1 redone with Cdn parts and unissued CF wood furniture  :'(  Sold when I got rid of my 12(5) guns...


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## redleafjumper (1 Oct 2005)

Tsk tsk, Kevin that's almost too much information!  There should probably be a "don't try this at home, kiddies"  warning.  It probably isn't appropriate for us to get into discussion of techniques that might tempt someone into doing something, well "bad."  The next thing you know someone will be saying, "...yeah I learned full-auto conversion techniques on Army.ca..." - you get the idea.

To get back to the point of the thread, it is a real shame that these rifles are being scrapped.  Certainly many were getting rough, but even as late as 1988, I remember seeing some very nice 8L series C1A1s in excellent condition.  The SARP was well under way by then and I hate to think that those fine rifles are going to the scrap heap.   :'(


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## TCBF (1 Oct 2005)

Well, the 8Ls I own aren't!

One of my 8Ls was the first rifle my son ever fired.

He was ten.

 ;D

Tom


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## redleafjumper (1 Oct 2005)

Mine's in nice shape, too.  Good on you for getting the youngster interested in a fine rifle.


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## KevinB (1 Oct 2005)

My bad - plus I was corrected on my teriminology  ;D


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## Old Ranger (1 Oct 2005)

Secret is still safe...... ;D


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## NavyShooter (1 Oct 2005)

Those who have them probably know anyhow....not so much of a secret....anyone who carried one in CF service probably knew how anyhow.

NS


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## Old Ranger (2 Oct 2005)

Didn't the Navy carry modified C-1s?
Or were they C-2's with different forestock?

Ben


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## TCBF (2 Oct 2005)

The RCN retained the original selective fire option in the design and adopted the FN C1A1D.

Boarding parties, and all that.

Tom


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## Old Ranger (2 Oct 2005)

Thanks, thought it was something like that.

Ben


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## Gayson (30 Dec 2005)

Did they ever have BFA's for the FN?  I assume they did.

Why not keep some for En force purposes.  I was on an en force weekend and some guys had FN's.  This was for a DP2 Armd Recce course.  The purpose of the FN's was to encourage the candidates to look for more than 2 guys smokin and jokin in a Milcot.

It sure would be a shame to destroy all those rifles.


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## Old Ranger (30 Dec 2005)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Did they ever have BFA's for the FN?  I assume they did.
> It sure would be a shame to destroy all those rifles.



BFA's for the FN...Yes.

And it is a shame.


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## Good2Golf (30 Dec 2005)

;D





			
				J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Did they ever have BFA's for the FN?  I assume they did.
> 
> Why not keep some for En force purposes.  I was on an en force weekend and some guys had FN's.  This was for a DP2 Armd Recce course.  The purpose of the FN's was to encourage the candidates to look for more than 2 guys smokin and jokin in a Milcot.
> 
> It sure would be a shame to destroy all those rifles.



As Old Ranger said, yes...but many of the BFA's stayed on like crap and would actually launch like an RPG if they weren't held on with those metal screw-type hose clamps.

Still remember my first one, 7L1776.... ;D

Cheers,
Duey


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## 2 Cdo (30 Dec 2005)

8L1204. Beautiful weapon, fairly accurate and tough as nails. Definitely going to be missed!


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## Old Ranger (30 Dec 2005)

Duey said:
			
		

> ;D
> As Old Ranger said, yes...but many of the BFA's stayed on like crap and would actually launch like an RPG if they weren't held on with those metal screw-type hose clamps.



Ah..the days..

We had to use wire binding for some of them.

How far does a BFA travel, shooting from a moving vehicle, into the field of dandelions?


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (30 Dec 2005)

FNC1+Blank round+Thunder flash= Budget cut RPG


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## Old Ranger (30 Dec 2005)

Used M-72 + paraflare = Responce to Budget cut RPG


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## Danjanou (30 Dec 2005)

That's right guys teach the youg uns all the illegal tricks with the old FN. Next you'll be telling them about the matchstick trick. ;D


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## Old Ranger (30 Dec 2005)

We already covered that earlier..;D


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## Gayson (30 Dec 2005)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> I thought the FN was SUPPOSED to fire on auto. . .   >



Only on ambushes and other fighting patrols 8) 


Not that I ever DID that :-[


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## Gunnerlove (30 Dec 2005)

Not sure if we have some special pull but we have 30 FNs on the way, 20 for Enemy force w/ full EIS and 10 for display and mounting.

It will be a better life than the smelter for them.


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## 3rd Herd (30 Dec 2005)

In battle school I had the joy of lugging around the C2 which was so old every time you went to fire it on auto the breach block and carrier flew over my shoulder. It was allot easier to shout "bang, bang , bang". In the Bn I had an C1 which I bartered for the skills of a  old time British weapons tech to look over. Breaking dinner plates at eight hundred with open sights nine out of ten times. Fought tooth and nail to keep it, they kept trying to give me a SMG. On a couple of excursion with the other branch of service in Victoria they used seamen with C1's as shark patrol when in the warm climates.


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## armyvern (31 Dec 2005)

So sad but true this is. I have very fond memories of the SMG and the FN. Many a black and blue cheek after firing the FN. The SMG, on the other hand was just pure  >. Ha.

These items are being demilitarized (smelted) as part of the Supply MASOP (Material Acquisition Support Optimization Project) for which I worked the better part of 2 years. During the last MASOP Conference that I attended at the Puzzle Palace during the 1st week of October, 25CFSD (Depot Montreal) announced that the demil of the SMGs was now completed and that the FN demil was on-going with an expected completion date of Jan 06.

These weapons were in very rough shape. An end of an era indeed.


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## 1feral1 (31 Dec 2005)

The BFA and the FN C1/C2

Early models had only one piece of metal attached around the bayonet boss of the flash eliminator, and yes true after metal fatigue, the BFA would launch off with a range of about 50-70ft.

CAL later on in the 1960's came out with a modfiied version which had two pieces of metal, so if one broke the BFA would still stay on, and then that BFA would be returned to the QM stores for replacment. However I still did see a few of these fail anad launch off anyways, but only after the damaged BFA had the first layer of metal broken, and for reasons unknown, went unreported. Older type BFAs were removed from service, and replaced with the modified version.

As for the screws and such version of the FN C1/C2 BFA, Canada never adopted it, but toyed with the idea in development. Other designs used by the UK and Australia proved to be foolproof, but were heavy and bulky, as these actually were a two piece item which screwed together, with a ratchet assembly, with the last versions painted red, compaired to Canada's traditional yellow colour.

Cheers,

Wes


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## TCBF (5 Jan 2006)

3LA510, in Germany, a long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

I have one of the BFA s down stairs.  It case I ever want to put it on one of my 8L s.

 ;D

Tom


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## Gayson (5 Jan 2006)

Was this thread editied, a couple of my posts are missing.    :-[


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## George Wallace (5 Jan 2006)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Was this thread editied, a couple of my posts are missing.    :-[


I guess you have been away for some time.  Here is what happened: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37779.0.html


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## geo (5 Jan 2006)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Was this thread editied, a couple of my posts are missing.    :-[


no edit... but there was a system problem and Mike Bobbitt had to recover from a backup - some loss

0L0005..... 
and I know the Reserve unit that still has it in it's vault / Reg't museum


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## redleafjumper (5 Jan 2006)

The RMRangers used to have the "Colonel's Rifle"  0L0001, I hope it still managed to stay on charge there.


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## geo (5 Jan 2006)

if 0L0001 has survived, it should defenitively find it's way to a museum 

BTW....0L0005 is with the other RMRs....


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## redleafjumper (5 Jan 2006)

The last I heard, it was in the regimental museum, but that was a long time ago.


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## geo (5 Jan 2006)

so it must be safe.
but... if it's always sitting in the Museum, then there's a good chance that the barrel has been filled (or damaged in some other way)

0L0005 is kept in the vault and only brought out upon request or for scheduled events.


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## Gayson (6 Jan 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I guess you have been away for some time.  Here is what happened: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37779.0.html



I gone for a few days.  Thanks for the heads up.


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## Eland (4 Feb 2006)

Ah yes, I remember the FN I was issued with... 7L6282. It stayed with me throughout my all too-short 2 year stint
in the Reserves. It fired OK on the range, but would never cycle reliably with blanks. Never had a problem with a BFA
flying off the barrel when using blanks, and I never needed to tie the BFA down with wire. It could be that the blank ammo
we got (it was all IVI-made) was a little underpowered to begin with, ergo the cycling problem and an absence of BFA "RPG"
issues. 

I always found the kick a bit too stout when the gas regulator was set to '0'. '4' was my preferred setting (as was the case for 
most of the guys in my unit), but I did know of a couple who didn't mind the '0' setting. Then, many years later I bought a Lee Enfield
Mk4... ever tried shooting one of those on the bench rest without a butt pad? Yeeowch, after 20 rounds. The FN on '0' was nothing by comparison. Strangely enough, if I fired the Lee Enfield from an offhand standing or kneeling position, the recoil was quite mild. The angle of the butt stock is probably what explains the difference.


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## axeman (4 Feb 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> if 0L0001 has survived, it should defenitively find it's way to a museum
> 
> BTW....0L0005 is with the other RMRs....



I had 0L0001 what about my old boomstick it is / was in the Rockie Mountain Rangers museum  in Kamloops BC i had way back in 88 i think it was ...

oh yes i was a cpl  and then it went to L/Col Nette then when they start to faze them out we had it museum ized


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## pissedpat (27 Feb 2006)

I got a tour of the Edmonton Depot last summer on my QL3 supply and one of the stops was the weapon vault. One giant room with tens of thousands of FNs in tri-walls. One of the tri-walls was opened and they pulled a rifle out for us to hold. It was in a sealed bag coated in grease and appeared to be in good condition. I was informed at that time that in the preceding months they had destroyed the last of the SMGs and that the only delay in destroying the FNs is a small amount of asbestos between the stock and the body of the weapon. Once they have the means in place to remove and dispose of that piece all the weapons are to be destroyed. So as unofficial as the words of a bin rat Pte might be... yes, all the FNs in war stock are to be destroyed. I guess the reasoning is they currently take up to much room given that they are out of date/unused weapons.


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## geo (27 Feb 2006)

madpat..... Asbestos? where?.... between the stock and the body of the weapon?
NO!.... ain't nothing there.

We had asbestos / fire retardant mitts for the 50s and C4 GPMGs but nothing "in" the weapon.... 

Don't think my memory has gone that foggy.... has it?


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## axeman (27 Feb 2006)

nope i think he was given misleading int. it was wood furniture then space then metal you know like all the lee enfields ...


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## geo (27 Feb 2006)

whew..... dodged the senility bullet once again


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## TCBF (27 Feb 2006)

Do the L1A1 stocks not have some sort of coating on the forestock inerior surfaces?  I know the C1s are pure wood.  I think the Brit/Aussie L1s might have something.  

Tom


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## geo (27 Feb 2006)

not the Aussie & Brit ones I handled
There is no benefit to having an internal coating to the wood furniture


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## redleafjumper (28 Feb 2006)

I will have to check my furniture, but I seem to recall a heat-resistant layer under the metal piece at the front of the forestock, at least on some of the older wood (the ones with the two slots in the wood) but not the newer ones.


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## bbbb (16 Mar 2006)

I never got the chance to use an FN. That was from back in the day. RMC stopped using them in the 90s. I saw one in their museum one summer.


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## redleafjumper (17 Mar 2006)

I finally got around to checking, and yes, there is an layer of asbestos under the metal plate at the business end of the inside of the forestocks.  It is present under both the old and the new stock patterns.  

An FN C1A1 in a museum?  Well, it is much better than cutting them up.  They were a great service rifle and I am still quite pleased with mine.


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## geo (17 Mar 2006)

Under the metal fitting where the screw fastening is?
yeah - I guess it would make sense there.... it's the only place the forestock is in contact with the barrel and the gas chamber.... there really can't be that much of it there though - really small place.


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## redleafjumper (18 Mar 2006)

Yes, that's the piece tiny though it is.


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## Old_navy_062 (18 Mar 2006)

I had to look for a quick replacement 4 years ago for the Navy's 44mag line throwing gun.   Gary offered me a 1000 of the warstock C1's as an option to look at.  While it was very tempting offer, the logistics for securing the weapons on board, developing a suitable blank, as well as teaching everyone that joined after '90 this "new" weapon, it was decided to convert a couple of hundred C7's to do the job.


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## TCBF (18 Mar 2006)

You should have held out for FN C2s!


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## geo (18 Mar 2006)

C2s.... except for the heavier barrel.... hunk of junk
didn't like it and didn't like the C2 mag bra...... Ouch!!!


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## Old_navy_062 (18 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> You should have held out for FN C2s!



The Navy needed a single shot line throwing gun.  Originally the project needed 181 weapons and I was allocated $540k for the entire project.  We went out to industry, and after all the proposals had been reviewed, we were short of funds by almost $300k.  That's when I went to Gary.  We looked at the 7.62 sniper rifle, but it would not have survived in a marine environment.  The FN was our next choice but the logistics of re-introducing it into the Navy was too much effort.  The C7 became the most viable choice as the US already had an M16 line throwing version in service.  The hardest part of adopting the C7 as a maritime line throwing gun was the re-worked ammunition.  We needed a lot more punch to the current in service blanks.  It took almost 2 years to get the project done, but if you talk to any other LCMM, 2 years from start to operational use is not a bad timeline.


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## geo (18 Mar 2006)

c2nwt.... wasn't the blank being used by the US good enough for our requirements?


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## Old_navy_062 (18 Mar 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> c2nwt.... wasn't the blank being used by the US good enough for our requirements?



The cartridge was not available to us.  When this was pushed through we were just post 9/11.  The restrictions on procuring small arms ammunition from the US was so prohibitive that we contracted a Canadian company to produce 10k rounds.  As there was a standing offer the process went a bit quicker.


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## blacktriangle (19 Mar 2006)

I assume none of these can be bought deactivated? The weapon holds sentimental value for some of my family.

 :crybaby:


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## geo (19 Mar 2006)

Doubt it.... they're gone or in process


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## TCBF (19 Mar 2006)

"The cartridge was not available to us.  When this was pushed through we were just post 9/11.  The restrictions on procuring small arms ammunition from the US was so prohibitive that we contracted a Canadian company to produce 10k rounds.  As there was a standing offer the process went a bit quicker."

- Didn't slow Winchester, Remington-Peters, Federal, etc. from shipping 20,000,000 12 GA cartridges, pluss millions more pistol and rifle rimfire and center fire cartridges a year into Canada from the USA.  or Libec ('Challenger') from shipping the stuff south from Quebec.

what kind of line thrower ammo do the Yanks and Kippers use?

Tom


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## geo (19 Mar 2006)

Must've been from the Colonel's secret recipe


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## usagi (19 Mar 2006)

I have fond memories of  my FNCI.  We had a great time in Ottawa in '84 at the Cannaught Ranges. I'll always remember that summer with a great sense of nostalgia. We won that year!  I still remember the serial number and year of manufacture, 4L2404 made in 1956. She never jammed and always shot as straight as I could manage. We also used to fire .22 cal with the help of a conversion kit on the indoor range located in the basement of the parade building. Excellent groupings and lots of fun!


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## GunnerGleadall (29 Sep 2012)

Hi:

From 1967 to 1970, I was post to the 3rd  RCHA, “G” Battery, CFB, Fort Osborne Barracks, Winnipeg and CFB,  Shilo, Manitoba.  Needless to say, I was part of the old arm and enjoy many memories of that time. 

It is so sad to see the FNC-1 and FNC-2 destroyed in this way with little regard to the history of this fine equipment.  Personally, I would gladly give my right arm and my left testicle to own one of these rifles and have it as a part of my collection; however, there always seems to be a “dickhead” that makes this not happen.

It is like anything else in the military, the ones holding the reins at this point of time think that equipment being used now are all important and that what was used  thirty or forty years ago is too old and outdate and therefore serve no further use.  This is a sad attitude to have because things like these rifles played such an important part in our military history.

At least the veterans and past soldiers should have had a chance to purchase them before putting them up for destruction.  This would have kept at least a few in circulation.

Oh well,  I guess this generation will begin to understand this point thirty or forty years from now, when the military at that time does the same thing to them.

Bob


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## daftandbarmy (29 Sep 2012)

GunnerGleadall said:
			
		

> Hi:
> 
> From 1967 to 1970, I was post to the 3rd  RCHA, “G” Battery, CFB, Fort Osborne Barracks, Winnipeg and CFB,  Shilo, Manitoba.  Needless to say, I was part of the old arm and enjoy many memories of that time.
> 
> ...




... and what about all those bayonets? At least they didn't break when you looked at them....


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## Danjanou (30 Sep 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> ... and what about all those bayonets? At least they didn't break when you looked at them....



Well they did break but you really had to work at. 

I remember the Guard of Honour for Prince Charles and Lady Di in 1983 at St John's aiprort. For the Dress rehearsal we were inspected by then Commodore Fred Mifflin (POS) and he was pissed that several of the FN bayonets were chipped and tips broken off. When the Guard Comd noted on the tarmac in front of 100 troopies  and  the CFS St John's CO, the LFAA Deputy Comd and other assorted high priced help that all requests for replacments had been denied by MARCOM/LFAA and that a request for spares from CFS St John's weapons lock up was also denied, well lets say it was entertaining for this right marker. 8)


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## cupper (30 Sep 2012)

And the truth shall set you free. ;D


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## NavyShooter (30 Sep 2012)

A VERY few of us still own C1's.  Mine is an ex-OPP rifle.

NS


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