# how many people will be on BOTC



## Catherine (26 Jul 2007)

My BOTC(Iap/Botp) will start next month in St jean, just wondering how many people will be on each course?


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## Meridian (26 Jul 2007)

Catherine said:
			
		

> My BOTC(Iap/Botp) will start next month in St jean, just wondering how many people will be on each course?



Your IAP serial (not BOTC, BOTC doesn't exist) will probably start with around 40 young eager occifers.  Could be a bit more, could be a bit less, all depending.


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## mudrecceman (26 Jul 2007)

Its now called BOMQ...from the CDA site...(IntraNet accessible only me thinks)

http://cda-acd.mil.ca/DLM/engraph/services/accred/milequiv/botp_e.asp

About the Basic Officer Military Qualification (formerly know as BOTP) 

CDA has the authority to grant equivalency to the Basic Military Officer Qualification – AIPB to Officer candidates and NCMs who initially took otherleadership courses with the Regular Force and/or Reserve Force. 

The qualification AIPB can only be granted if the member has completed or received equivalency to both IAP and BOTP.  However, please note that in all cases, reviews are conducted and decisions are taken on a case-by-case basis.


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## Avro_Arrow_1976 (26 Jul 2007)

IAP is 4 platoons of 30 people each, 3 english and 1 francophone platoon.


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Jul 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Your IAP serial (not BOTC, BOTC doesn't exist) will probably start with around 40 young eager occifers.  Could be a bit more, could be a bit less, all depending.


Of course neither IAP nor BOTC exist anymore BOTC until very recently (were talking 3 July here) was BOTP Phase II (IAP being PH I) Now of course its all one course BMOQ comprising both. from what I understand the 27 Aug start (4 Srls 3 Anglo, 1 Franco) will be the pilot crses for the new format, Catherine what srl are you loaded on both Avro and I are loaded on 27E


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## mudrecceman (27 Jul 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> what I understand the 27 Aug start (4 Srls 3 Anglo, 1 Franco) will be the pilot crses for the new format



Just like LAST years batch...3 "E" and 1 "F"...pilot course...but they started on...(read RFD'd) 26 Aug.

So..not all that new huh?


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Jul 2007)

tis true more of the same new but we were crse loaded on 2 crses vice one (RFD is on 26 Aug) and CFLRS still has 2 seperate courses on thier trg calendar.


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## mudrecceman (27 Jul 2007)

huh?


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Jul 2007)

The recent course loading msgs for the new IAP/BOTC  now called BMOQ came out as a loading to 2 seperate consecutive crses, and the CFLRS Trg Calendar (avail on the DIN only) still has the crses run as IAP and BOTC Seperatly as opposed to the new single BMOQ (of course a little back chanel rumint from a friend posted out thier leans toward changing lesson plans to come in line with the new course)


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## mudrecceman (27 Jul 2007)

Rgr.  I was on the CFLRS site looking at the Trng Div stuff this week...all still IAP/BOTP.

If they are twigging the "BOMQ" CTP/CTS...it won't be published until Standards throws their holy water on it...


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Jul 2007)

ah yes the holy water of standards, generaly liberaly sprinkled the day before or after a course starts just to through everyone off, even the standards guys themselves lol


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## Avro_Arrow_1976 (27 Jul 2007)

Are you guys all arriving the evening of the 26th? At 1745 look out the window I'll be walking from my car into the Mega haha. What dress is everyone arriving in? I was advised here by my COC to wear #3's


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Jul 2007)

Tim you know the old way of doing things report in in svc dress (used to be in the QR&O's, but I can't find it anymore probably repealed) But I will will be there in branch badge and buttons, only I'm in on the 25th probably mid-day, as RFD is the 26th (got my crap over to CMTT already)


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## Avro_Arrow_1976 (27 Jul 2007)

Yeah I decided to go on the 25th as well, in Service Dress and I will be there about 5:30pm at the very latest. My UAB has been dropped off but I doubt they did anything with it yet. I'm hitting the road tomorrow for Toronto where I will do my OJT at the PA Office.


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Jul 2007)

hey seeing as you're feel like picking me up at the airport about 07:00 on the 25th lol


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## Shamrock (27 Jul 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Tim you know the old way of doing things report in in svc dress (used to be in the QR&O's, but I can't find it anymore probably repealed) But I will will be there in branch badge and buttons, only I'm in on the 25th probably mid-day, as RFD is the 26th (got my crap over to CMTT already)



May want to rethink that.  You're probably not even qualified to wear a cornflake at this point, let alone a trades badge or buttons.


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Jul 2007)

wow see one would think with a wee bit over 10 years in a uniform I would be qualified to determine that seeing as I have been wearing a hard sea capbadge for the last 7 years I might, just might have the sense to research things before I just up and do them (CF Dress instructions state the NCM's appointed OCdt will wear the cap badge and insignia of the new branch/regt persuant to regt directives for the Cbt Arms, all others put them up right away) and direction given out of Shilo was to wear everything save for the cloth embroidered cap badge (opting to wear the Brass one as it is the branch badge until completion of phase III) 

Edit to add P.S. Officers don't wear trade badges


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## Shamrock (28 Jul 2007)

Golly gosh darn it.  Glad you sorted me out, too.

If only I'd have had the sense to go through BOTC and had the sense to see when other people who had been in as NCM's who also knew more than the course staff, including the proper wearing of dress.  Then I could spar with you.

Make sure you tell the course staff they're wrong about making you put your medals away, too.  Most instructors like it when an officer candidate show how right they are.  Shows leadership and initiative and strength.


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## aesop081 (28 Jul 2007)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Golly gosh darn it.  Glad you sorted me out, too.
> 
> If only I'd have had the sense to go through BOTC and had the sense to see when other people who had been in as NCM's who also knew more than the course staff, including the proper wearing of dress.  Then I could spar with you.
> 
> Make sure you tell the course staff they're wrong about making you put your medals away, too.  Most instructors like it when an officer candidate show how right they are.  Shows leadership and initiative and strength.



Freind of mine CFR'd recently and went to BOTC in the fall of last year.  There were several other CFR pers with him.  All of them wore their medals in DEUs, he wore AF accoutrements and so did the other CFRs


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## Quag (28 Jul 2007)

Just a quick note: You should show up for IAP/BOTP in civilian dress regardless of what rank / position / nintendo score you have had.

And yes, course instructors love to have former NCM's tell them how things should be done.  Almost as much as when ex-cadets tell them that "this was not how we did it back in the cadets".


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## Shamrock (28 Jul 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Freind of mine CFR'd recently and went to BOTC in the fall of last year.  There were several other CFR pers with him.  All of them wore their medals in DEUs, he wore AF accoutrements and so did the other CFRs



Which division did they go through?  
Were the CFR or UT or ROTP (Previous Service)?

I thought we were getting away from the, "I don't have experience with this, but a friend of mine did this..." here at army.ca


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## Disenchantedsailor (28 Jul 2007)

It also helps to have access to the CFLRS Candidate SOP, avail on the DNET which explains these things for you such as the wearing of devices and honours . And for you shamrock, I didn't say I knew more than the instructors, I said I had researched the questions I had (they do teach that to nco's you know) and came up with solid answers from the trainig establishment in question.


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## Quag (28 Jul 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Freind of mine CFR'd recently and went to BOTC in the fall of last year.  There were several other CFR pers with him.  All of them wore their medals in DEUs, he wore AF accoutrements and so did the other CFRs



Did they CFR or are they UTPNCM's / other entry plans?  BIG difference...

edit: If they CFR'd they should not be doing BOTP / BOTC / BMOQ ??


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## aesop081 (28 Jul 2007)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Which division did they go through?
> Were the CFR or UT or ROTP (Previous Service)?



They were CFR.....as i stated.........C........F........R



> I thought we were getting away from the, "I don't have experience with this, but a friend of mine did this..." here at army.ca



You can take my comments any which way you want.  I saw them first had and i think i have enough credibility here for that



			
				Quag said:
			
		

> edit: If they CFR'd they should not be doing BOTP / BOTC / BMOQ ??



Whatever it is thats after IAP...........call it T-H-I-N-G  for all i care.  If you dont have SLC and you take CFR, you have to do BOTC ( or whatever the acronym is)


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## Quag (28 Jul 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They were CFR.....as i stated.........C........F........R
> 
> You can take my comments any which way you want.  I saw them first had and i think i have enough credibility here for that
> 
> Whatever it is thats after IAP...........call it T-H-I-N-G  for all i care.  If you dont have SLC and you take CFR, you have to do BOTC ( or whatever the acronym is)




Ok thats what I was wondering....So it was a Sgt without SLC....


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## aesop081 (28 Jul 2007)

Quag said:
			
		

> Ok thats what I was wondering....So it was a Sgt without SLC....



Affirmative


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## Shamrock (28 Jul 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> It also helps to have access to the CFLRS Candidate SOP, avail on the DNET which explains these things for you such as the wearing of devices and honours . And for you shamrock, I didn't say I knew more than the instructors, I said I had researched the questions I had (they do teach that to nco's you know) and came up with solid answers from the trainig establishment in question.


CFLRS SOP is that no officer candidates nor recruits will wear medals or cap badges, less the cornflake once indoctrination period is complete.  Some divisions, even platoons, will supercede this.  I'd recommend sanitizing your uniform and getting permission from your course staff to return everything to your uniform.  The buttons on your CF's shouldn't be too big a problem as your CF's won't be out for inspections until well into the course once the rest of the course gets their's issued, tailored, then dry cleaned.  Yes, this could mean your CF's will sit in a storage locker for the duration of the course.  You may also be required to sign for older kit regardless of present issue or former entitlement -- your TV and ICE jacket may have to be stored in favour of webbing and OD combat jacket to name a few.  It's a recruit course for brand spanking new recruits.  One course, one standard.  



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They were CFR.....as i stated.........C........F........R


BOTP bypass is granted to an individual with ILQ.  I enquired about which plan your friend was on because, clearly, you don't even know which course we're discussing.


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## aesop081 (28 Jul 2007)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> BOTP bypass is granted to an individual with ILQ.  I enquired about which plan your friend was on because, clearly, you don't even know which course we're discussing.



The individuals to which i refered to did NOT have ILQ therefore were not granted a bypass......

Get it now ?


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## aesop081 (28 Jul 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The individuals to which i refered to did NOT have ILQ therefore were not granted a bypass for anything beyond IAP
> 
> Get it now ?


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## Shamrock (28 Jul 2007)

No.

What does what your friend wore while on BOTP have to do with IAP?

As an aside to ArtieNewbie, does your reference mention pers MOC and not MOC qual attending CFLRS?


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## Disenchantedsailor (29 Jul 2007)

no it relates to branch items only, in fact the sop is under review as it did not contain references to those previosly MOC Qual in a different trade or branch wearing the new branch cap badge and insignia upon appointment to OCdt (which is stated in CF Dress Inst). basically the end result (from a phone call my RSM made to req info) is that for those with no prev service they will earn/wear the universal pattern cap badge upon completion of the saluting test, for those prev qual in a different or same trade as per above. As for the wear of honours and awards it has been determined (at the school, again second hand information from Que) that honours will be worn by all who legally earned them. Even the hardest of heads in our organization have come to the conclusion that someone who has been in the CF with no break in service for a considerable period of time has at the very least earned the right to wear thier honours, and a cap badge.


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## mudrecceman (29 Jul 2007)

Wow did this ever turn into a pissin' contest!


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## Shamrock (30 Jul 2007)

CANADIAN FORCES LEADERSHIP AND RECRUIT SCHOOL STUDENT STANDING ORDERS

IAP, BOTP and SLT Regulations

Branch Cap and Collar Badges.

64. The policy regarding the wearing of branch cap and collar badges is as follow:

65. ROTP candidates shall be issued branch cap badges and where appropriate, collar badges, on commencement of specific occupation training. The CF cap badge shall be worn during Phase- 1 training (IAP, BOTP and SLT).

66. UTPNCM candidates shall continue to wear their current branch or regimental cap badge and applicable collar badges until the date indicated on their Program acceptance message when they will be promoted to the rank of Officer- cadet. Upon promotion, they shall change to their new rank, DEU (if appropriate), and wear the CF cap badge until completion of phase-1 training (IAP, BOTP and SLT).

67. Depending on your military occupation (MOC), Corps badges may be worn as early as Phase- 2 training at the discretion of the MOC training school Commandant. Some MOC do not receive their operational cap badge until successful completion of their final phase of training;


Please note, this does not cover CFR, DEO, or CEOTP.  It is likely individuals for DEO and CEOTP will fall under para 65 or 66, whichever is most applicable to them.


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