# C7A2 Foregrip?



## dangles (30 Nov 2011)

Hey everyone...

I'm just a reservist going through BMQ right now but I heard we can buy a foregrip for our rifle's if we choose to for our SQ. I did a quick search at CPGear and Tactowngear but couldn't find one for sale. 

Anyone know where one can find one that will fit on the C7A2? 
Thanks for the help.


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## SixFishSticks (30 Nov 2011)

You will not buy a C7A2 fore grip of any kind for your pers weapon... firstly you will get destroyed by your course staff on SQ.. Like smoldering burnt hell hole destroyed...
Secondly you do not need gucci kit like that ever throughout your career unless you are get deployed...
Thirdly the C7's/A1's/A2's you have on BMQ, SQ (BMQ-L), Your THREE'S are all temp issued to you by the school your at... You don't get to do that till your posted and you draw the same C7 every time... at your unit

So don't buy a foregrip plz and thanks


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## REDinstaller (30 Nov 2011)

Also when you do require a foregrip, one will be issued to you.


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## Robert0288 (30 Nov 2011)

> firstly you will get destroyed by your course staff on SQ.. Like smoldering burnt hell hole destroyed...


 op:  And you will probably get just as destroyed/laughed at/mocked at your unit if you show up on the first day with stuff to throw on your rifle.  Relax and wait a little while and see what other people are doing before you go out and start buying bonus gucci gear.


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## MJP (30 Nov 2011)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Also when you do require a foregrip, one will be issued to you.



Meh There are many folks who would argue that the issued ones blow and others like 'em.  I would rather he do what Robert said in the post below yours.  Then he can make an informed decision on what gear he should buy and use. 



			
				Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Relax and wait a little while and see what other people are doing before you go out and start buying bonus gucci gear.


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## Dissident (30 Nov 2011)

The OP has been adequately answered, but I wanted to highlight the following: 



			
				SixFishSticks said:
			
		

> Secondly you do not need gucci kit like that ever throughout your career unless you are get deployed...



This is oh so wrong. 

I am completely lost as to why some people believe you should train one way (with one kit) and operate another way (with different kit).


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## Armymedic (30 Nov 2011)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> The OP has been adequately answered, but I wanted to highlight the following:
> 
> This is oh so wrong.
> 
> I am completely lost as to why some people believe you should train one way (with one kit) and operate another way (with different kit).



It is because our military has completely forgotten that training as you fight needs to be supported and defined by fighting as you train.

You will see more of this as we return to training.


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## Thompson_JM (30 Nov 2011)

I am of the personal opinion that the C7A2's should have a vertical Foregrip attached to them as a standard feature...   (Or at the very least the rails should be put onto them so each user has the option... ) I find them to be a forward heavy Weapon, and adding said grip would make it far more comfortable to shoot.. 

That being said, What everyone already said about your BMQ/SQ/DP1/DP2/Etc... is correct...  

Just because I would like to see a grip on my bangstick does not mean I'm going to go out and put one onto it... (*maybe* I would own a hand-guard with a rail attached that I could put on for Field ex's etc... Key word is maybe...) But its a fine line bro... The Best tip you got is to wait out... get to your unit and see how the guys and gals there use em, and what they do...


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Nov 2011)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> It is because our military has completely forgotten that training as you fight needs to be supported and defined by fighting as you train.
> 
> You will see more of this as we return to training.



And that's good. Way good! Here come the caveats though.

Training for a war, not the war. OK, we've done that one here. Good points and bad. No need to really rehash.

We need definable goals, while still being open minded enough to know when things aren't working, when new technology is developing and how to stay ahead of the curve.

We need a command structure that's grounded and open to change. Not simply for change sake, but because it's the right thing to do.

That command structure has to be supported by the schools, so that when things are identified they can be studied and implemented.

The implementation needs to be timely and proactive. Not studied for a couple of years, rolled around the development stages for a couple of more and then come out the other end looking not even remotely what the boots on the ground asked for, or totally out of date already.

Local leaders need to grow a pair and try things different. Try new ideas and not worry about offending some guy 500 miles away or spending a month asking for permission. "Better to beg forgiveness..........and all that.

OWNERSHIP! People have to take ownership of their ideas, do the background and predevelopment stuff, sell the idea, follow it up and make it work! Not pass it to some faceless committee half way across the country, who could care less what you think. We have to cut down on the time from idea to doctrine.

Experience. We have a ton of it after the last 12 years. The problem being, that every group that came back knew the latest and greatest, force fed it until the next group came home and everything changed. We've all seen certain individuals that tried to force unit training because they had just returned, even though they were already 6-12 months out of date.

The Cold War is over. We do a lot of things different, but some things never change. We can't disregard those lessons that have stood us in good stead for the last 40 + years. Old soldiers didn't get that way because they were stupid or outdated.

We have to get past our own egos. Just because you were somewhere that someone else wasn't, doesn't mean that either experience can be discounted. No one is better than the other. Everyone has something to share.

Most of all, we have to work within the system. If you wander the halls, chest puffed out, saying 'Do it this way, because I was there, boy', you'll get nowhere, but ignored. The system exists for a reason(s), not all good I'll grant, but it's there all the same. If you don't understand the system, work within it and make it work for you, your idea is just a subject for talk over beer at the Mess.

We have a shortage of middle leaders. The people for those positions will be pulled from those that may not be ready as they always were. It is incumbent on the senior leaders, nay, every leader no matter the level, to ensure that everyone has the best doctrine, policies and programs that we can possibly afford to giver them.

OK. That's got nothing to do with how you want to hold your rifle.

Or maybe it does


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## Snaketnk (30 Nov 2011)

My problem with the whole "We need to train for *A* war, not *THE* war" is that when most people say that they mean "we need to train for the cold war, nothing else"

A couple weeks ago I was told by an OC that we don't need to do urban ops any more because it's an Afghanistan thing. He went on further to say that urban ops won't happen in a conventional war. It seems their idea of "a war" is 15km ruck marches and a week of digging in on a field in the training area.

Something I'd like to see is people who lay out our "training" realize that counter insurgency and "policing" duties are a part of modern war. Not every Op will be hard knock/kinetic, and you won't be keeping civilians at >25m away all the time. Most of the skills I required overseas I had to learn overseas, even the generic non-afghanistan like driving as a convoy, urban patrolling, and even marksmanship with my weapon.

I'm not saying we should totally get rid of those conventional scenarios where we line up and interlock fields of fire to fight off waves of fantasians, but let's balance it out with some of the infantry skills that have been required in conflicts over the last 20 years.


Back on to foregrips; find out what works for you first; then if you do decide to go that route, don't go vertical, go angled... sooo much more comfortable. Really though there's been very few times I've wanted to use a foregrip with a C7; it feels awkward. Feels a lot better on a C8.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Nov 2011)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> My problem with the whole "We need to train for *A* war, not *THE* war" is that when most people say that they mean "we need to train for the cold war, nothing else"
> 
> A couple weeks ago I was told by an OC that we don't need to do urban ops any more because it's an Afghanistan thing. He went on further to say that urban ops won't happen in a conventional war. It seems their idea of "a war" is 15km ruck marches and a week of digging in on a field in the training area.



That's a mindset, on both sides, that has to change. Otherwise, ten years from now 'a war' will mean how we did it in Afghanistan. We have to keep simple, time honoured soldier and team skills, but be able to adapt them to the present (future). It means remaining in a state of flux but staying grounded in what works.

"A war" means being ready to adapt to whatever comes down the pipe, in minimal time, using all the lessons learned from, at least, the Cold War onwards. There is no one 'a war', but a culmination of different conflicts. 'A war' means being prepared for anything, not 'the thing'.


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## dangles (30 Nov 2011)

I see this thread has become derailed...I originally wanted the grip because on one of our parade nights I got to clean another soldier's rifle who had a vertical foregrip and it felt more natural to hold the rifle that way. I asked one of my BMQ course staff [a Sgt.] if it was possible I could get one for SQ and DP1 and he said it probably wasn't an issue.

At any rate, I realize now it probably isn't the best thing to do for my situation for the time being, so thank you all for that advice. Although at least I can feel better in the fact that I sparked a heated training debate...


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## Dissident (1 Dec 2011)

So I was on a course with some people somewhere. Pay attention to the hand placement displayed by this Motley Crew:





Myself:





I still have a front grip on my rifles, mostly for retention, ease of manipulation and to index my hand. I do not use it while engaging targets. (I was a skeptic, but the grip demonstrated by most of us is faster for follow up shot.) I've been wanting to try to get and use a KAC handstop for a while now, just haven't been real motivated in getting one.

So the front grip is useful, but it won't help you shoot better, probably the opposite in fact.

ETA: Free milpoints to whoever figures out what is wrong in this picture.


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## medicineman (1 Dec 2011)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> So I was on a course with some people somewhere. Pay attention to the hand placement displayed by this Motley Crew:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude's retention strap on his holster isn't up.

MM


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## Dissident (1 Dec 2011)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Dude's retention strap on his holster isn't up.
> 
> MM



Indeed. I don't remember why I didn't put it up, but it was probably not a very good reason anyways.


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## PanaEng (5 Dec 2011)

ETA: Free milpoints to whoever figures out what is wrong in this picture.
[/quote]
not sure about the holster but the background looks like Chilliwack.
Miss that place!

Chimo!


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## HollywoodCowboy (6 Dec 2011)

No wax on his handle bar stash.


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## DirtyDog (11 Dec 2011)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> A couple weeks ago I was told by an OC that we don't need to do urban ops any more because it's an Afghanistan thing. He went on further to say that urban ops won't happen in a conventional war.


I'd hazard to say that OC is an idiot (If in fact that is exactly what he said).  Seriously.... to blatantly say we won't be fighting in an urban environment in a conventional waror otherwise is ludricous.

After using a VFG for a number of years, I am glad to have been broken of the habit and for learning far more effective means of controlling and shooting the weapon.  Granted, I still have one on my weapon (just a plain, little KAC jobbie FYI, not the issue CADEX montrousity) but it is more of a landmark for my support hand and I find when on the march and other certain situations gripping the VFG is much less awkward and comfortable.  I can still quickly transition to a "proper" hold however.

I don't care how you spend you're money and I don't care if you're chastised by instructors and fellow coursemates.  If you really want one, and think you can get away with it as a new troop on course (doubtful), buy a little section of bolt on rail, like what's issued for the CADEX grip, and find yourself a decent VFG from One Shot Tactical, Daves or even Brownells.


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## multihobbist (2 Jan 2012)

Some of the units at least in Ottawa have foregrips issued with the weapon.
Is this nation wide?


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## PuckChaser (2 Jan 2012)

multihobbist said:
			
		

> Some of the units at least in Ottawa have foregrips issued with the weapon.
> Is this nation wide?



Most units are getting them now, non-combat arms units with limited quantities.


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## MikeL (2 Jan 2012)

multihobbist said:
			
		

> Some of the units at least in Ottawa have foregrips issued with the weapon.
> Is this nation wide?



The vert grip is not a Ottawa specific item,  not sure if every unit has them, but I would think a lot(Cbt Arms at least) have them.


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Jan 2012)

I've had an issued foregrip since the C7A2 came into service....I thought it was part of the EIS for it... ???


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## tacmed2007 (3 Jan 2012)

Our fore grip is "OK"  I found that most installed it backwards??? but I find the rails we use are junk. Most guys went with a for-grip from Brownell or other like places. I for one used it on every engagement within gunfighter range.

The rifle over all should be similar to the current US issue M4 or 16 with a floating rail system, troops with in reason should be able to mod their guns for training or ops. But I seem to remember one Army RSM that claimed our kit was the envy of NATO....guess he didn't do a patrol with our current NVGS, or try to keep up to LAVS in a  bison.


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## Robert0288 (3 Jan 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I've had an issued foregrip since the C7A2 came into service....I thought it was part of the EIS for it... ???



Nope, our unit just got C7A2 and no foregrips.  No talks of recieving any in the near future either.  Although I have seen them on about 50% of the rifles at Connaught.


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## brihard (3 Jan 2012)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Nope, our unit just got C7A2 and no foregrips.  No talks of recieving any in the near future either.  Although I have seen them on about 50% of the rifles at Connaught.



We seem to be sitting about half and half too.


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## Snaketnk (3 Jan 2012)

Rookie Green said:
			
		

> American M4s and M16s have a KAC RAS, which I'm pretty sure isn't free floating....



That's right. Floating means that they're totally seprate and don't contact the barrel (or any part thereof) so that accessories/grips don't "pull" on the barrel. I've never really noticed it a problem, the only time I could see a real difference is if you had a rail mounted M203 or a bipod. KAC rails are relatively inexpensive and will do the job; and most CoC don't mind them; as it makes things like PEQs harder to lose. Never personally owned one (though I know lots of guys that do), but they seem very very practical.


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## DirtyDog (5 Jan 2012)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> KAC rails are relatively inexpensive


As opposed to what?

In the world of pop-in style RASs, the M5 KAC is pretty well at the top of the price scale and in fact many respectable free float RASs can be had for less.

That being said, I still bought a set.


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## Snaketnk (5 Jan 2012)

I meant "in the big scheme of things", sorry if that wasn't clear. It's the same price as a weekend at the bars.


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