# More sailors needed for Canada's warships



## GAP

More sailors needed for Canada's warships
Matthew Fisher, Mideast Correspondent ,  Canwest News Service Published: Sunday, July 27, 2008
Article Link

ABOARD HMCS IROQUOIS, Indian Ocean -- About 800 Canadian sailors are now patrolling the politically turbulent waters near Iran and Pakistan. But mustering crews to man warships near global flash points has increasingly become a nightmare for navy planners in Nova Scotia, British Columbia and Ottawa. 

They have 8,000 sailors on their books and jobs for 8,600.

"We are understaffed. There is no doubt about that," said Commodore Bob Davidson, the Canadian commander of Task Force 150 - a multi-national flotilla in the Indian Ocean that includes the Halifax-based Iroquois and well as Esquimalt, and the B.C.-based HMCS Calgary and HMCS Protecteur.

"We are looking at being short by about 300 people per coast and that is not insubstantial."

To put warships to sea the navy must routinely "borrow" sailors from other ships. For example, 108 of the Protecteur's current company of 260 sailors were not normally assigned to the supply and refuelling ship, but had been attached for the current 196-day around-the world mission.

"The quiet ships are going light," Capt. Brendan Ryan, the Iroquois captain, said. "We ask ships in the yard how many people with specific skills they have on hand. That is how we manage this."

The navy's other critical shortcoming is that its destroyers and supply ships are older than most of the sailors on-board. The Sea King helicopters on their flight decks are even older and often unavailable because of chronic maintenance issues.

Since being commissioned 36 years ago, the Iroquois has sailed more than one million kilometres, which is the equivalent of circling the globe 27 times. 

Given their age, Canada's three destroyers should be replaced about now. But as they still have world-class missile defence systems that allow them to sail into harm's way, it is probable the destroyers won't be retired for another seven or eight years. However, because it takes so long after funding is approved to build warships, it will likely be several more years after that before the destroyers are finally replaced.
More on link


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## Ex-Dragoon

While recruiting new blood in so is retention. Until they figure something out to make sailors want to stay our numbers will continually decline.


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## blacktriangle

Have to agree with Ex Dragoon, the military doesn't do that great of a job of keeping up the interest. I'd go sail right now if someone asked me too, only because I'm so bored doing what I do now...


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## geo

More sailors needed for Canada's warships
More airmen needed for Canada's expanding air capabilities
More soldiers needed for Canada's Army

That's the problem with an economy that is, oddly enough, booming - against all expectations.


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## Navy_Blue

This was talked about a week or ago in the shop.  Why not allow our senior people to effectively retire, draw the pension that belongs to them and remain in the billets.  This would give senior experienced people a substantial raise that would cost the CF nothing.  They would not have to pay into the pension system or receive any of our normal benefits except the health care provided on base.  That would be allot of money.  It could be case by case and could potentially retain people for 5+ years allowing the CF to catch up.  They are already doing it by rejoining the reserves after they retire anyways.  Why shouldn't we (Reg Force) try and keep them?  As younger people progress and get promoted they can be released service no longer required.

They do this on civi street with nurses for example allowing them to retire collect a pention and be rehired as part time.  Most times they get full time hours (if they want) because they are so short.  

Do the math:  Your pay + what you pay in pension and benefits + the 40% to 50% you collect in pension = $$$

Your a chief or PO1 in a billet you really don't mind being in.  Your 20 years is up and you can do the same job for BAE, CME, Lockheed Martin, or any other contractor but most times not for a whole lot more money.  Would you stay with this kind of deal?

I think this could keep a few around long enough to get things sorted out.


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## DONT_PANIC

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> This was talked about a week or ago in the shop.  Why not allow our senior people to effectively retire, draw the pension that belongs to them and remain in the billets.  This would give senior experienced people a substantial raise that would cost the CF nothing.  They would not have to pay into the pension system or receive any of our normal benefits except the health care provided on base.  That would be allot of money.  It could be case by case and could potentially retain people for 5+ years allowing the CF to catch up.  They are already doing it by rejoining the reserves after they retire anyways.  Why shouldn't we (Reg Force) try and keep them?  As younger people progress and get promoted they can be released service no longer required.
> 
> They do this on civi street with nurses for example allowing them to retire collect a pention and be rehired as part time.  Most times they get full time hours (if they want) because they are so short.
> 
> Do the math:  Your pay + what you pay in pension and benefits + the 40% to 50% you collect in pension = $$$
> 
> Your a chief or PO1 in a billet you really don't mind being in.  Your 20 years is up and you can do the same job for BAE, CME, Lockheed Martin, or any other contractor but most times not for a whole lot more money.  Would you stay with this kind of deal?
> 
> I think this could keep a few around long enough to get things sorted out.



I think to a certain extent this is already done.  I know at least one instance where a Mcpl served plenty of time in reg force, took the pension, switched to reserves, and just teaches BMQ most of the year.  Now, I doubt this practice is especially widespread, but could certainly serve as a good stopgap measure.


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## SweetNavyJustice

Who knows, with the CANFORGEN released today stating the updated (and navy heavy) list of trades with hiring bonuses - maybe in the next few years things will ease up.......  Not likely!


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## Proud_Newfoundlander

Reason I skipped joining  the navy was because it didnt seem as exciting as the other Elements. It seemed to have better food, more formal uniforms,better  living conditions than  the army, but the army, despite the dangers, and less than stellar field conditions, seem to be right in the thick of problems and see excitment, and I think the excitement and being right in the thick of the action attracts a lot of people. It just isnt money and benefits. Like, if the navy offered more money, I would still probably go to the army


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## Ex-Dragoon

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Reason I skipped joining  the navy was because it didnt seem as exciting as the other Elements. It seemed to have better food, more formal uniforms,better  living conditions than  the army, but the army, despite the dangers, and less than stellar field conditions, seem to be right in the thick of problems and see excitment, and I think the excitement and being right in the thick of the action attracts a lot of people. It just isnt money and benefits. Lik*e, if the navy offered more money, I would still probably go to the army



Hate to tell you but your statement is based in generalization, opinion and not facts. Every element has its downtimes and its "Holy Sh*t" periods. As for money all elements have trades that offer more money (specialist pay) not to mention the various enviromental  allowances.

I have been bored in the Navy and the Army but its what _you_ make it.


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## DONT_PANIC

I think the navy needs to be realistic about what it can expect in terms of retention.  Perhaps the "worst" scenario is where someone joins, spends 6-12 months on BMQ/PAT/NETP, then 1.5 doing their QL3, only to get another 2.5 years of service, as they have released and found civilian work with their navy funded educationa dne xperience.  While this isn't a complete waste of resources, the navy is getting a minimal return on a significant time investment.  On the other hand, Getting people to stay 20+ years, while ideal, just isn't as reasonable anymore (at least for technical trades (I think)). 

Though I have nothing to back this up, I'd imagine that trades with fewer civilian applications might have fewer retention issues (at least, retention issues motivated by economic reasons):  the oilpatch isn't exactly screaming for NESOPs or NCIOPs.  I've mentioned this before (and have nothing but anectodal evidence to back this up), but the Naval Reserve might be a significant source of untapped manpower.  I know plenty of shads (myself included) that just don't really want to take 6 months off our civilian jobs to sail on a few fishpats and do a few MARS IV courses.  On the other hand, if the reasonable opportunity to do six-eight months in a Persian Gulf tour or Standing Nato Fleet Atlantic stint arose, I can imagine a few reservists (again, myself included) jumping at the opportunity.  I know that crewing the MCDVs is NAVRES' job, but since NAVRES acknowledged that international operations should take a higher priority...


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## Proud_Newfoundlander

Well, from what I've read and heard the navy dosent seem to do a whole lot, action wise.  They seem to participate in war games, patrolling, odd drug seizure/rescue, etc Is it true they havent seen combat since the Korea conflict ? Theres often some truth to some generalizations too. Navy just seemed dull to me, my dad didnt have anything nice to say about it, but again, you're right, its just an opinion(mostly). But seeing as im someone joining the forces, and the thread is why recruits are lacking, thought Id give my two cents


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Well, from what I've read and heard the navy dosent seem to do a whole lot, action wise.  They seem to participate in war games, patrolling, odd drug seizure/rescue, etc



...and just what part of this don't you think is "action"?


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## Proud_Newfoundlander

Dosent seem as exciting as the army, nor does it seem you're doing as much aid as the army. The patrolling is the largest componenet of the threee and that seems dull


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## aesop081

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Dosent seem as exciting as the army,



I spent alot of time bored out of my skull sweeping the unit lines while i was in the army.........


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## Proud_Newfoundlander

Yeah, but the army is at ground zero on the  major conflicts

Personally, I find sweeping kinda fun, lol


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## aesop081

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Yeah, but the army is at ground zero on the  major conflicts



It is at this moment.........5 years from now could be a different story. 




> Personally, I find sweeping kinda fun, lol



Fun like a *fun*eral.


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## Sub_Guy

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> nor does it seem you're doing as much aid as the army. The patrolling is the largest componenet of the threee and that seems dull



Sure you are not face to face with the people you are helping, but the Navy does quite a bit.  World trade depends on the security of the ocean without a secure ocean there is nothing, the navy conducing its boring patrols is doing much more than many think.


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## Eye In The Sky

Such as...

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=2715

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78684.0.html


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## Neill McKay

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Sure you are not face to face with the people you are helping, but the Navy does quite a bit.  World trade depends on the security of the ocean without a secure ocean there is nothing, the navy conducing its boring patrols is doing much more than many think.



To expand that a bit, much of the navy's value comes in just being there.  Without a shot being fired on either side, a warship charging into view makes a powerful statement.  More than one ship has been saved from attack by pirates by the very sight of a warship arriving on the scene.  Similarly, parking one or more warships off the coast of a country is certain to be noticed by the government and can have a strong influence on what it does.


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## geo

Pirates are oportunists and thieves.
Any show of force - be it in the air or on the sea will discourage even the most enthusiastic pirate.... but I see your point


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## Eye In The Sky

geo said:
			
		

> Pirates are oportunists and thieves.
> Any show of force - be it in the air or on the sea will discourage even the most enthusiastic pirate.... but I see your point



This story appears to support that as well Geo.

International Operations

*Sea King scares off pirates*

As the CH-124 Sea King helicopter from HMCS Calgary approaches, a pirate skiff breaks off its attack on a cargo vessel and races away.

On the morning of June 3, 2008, just after Canadian Commodore Bob Davidson assumed command of Combined Task Force 150 from French Rear Admiral Jean-Louis Kérignard, one of Canada's Sea King helicopters, embarked in Her Majesty's Canadian Ship Calgary, intervened in an ongoing piracy attack on a commercial vessel transiting the Gulf of Aden, approximately 65 nautical miles off the coast of Somalia.

The frigate Calgary, one of three Canadian warships currently assigned to Operation ALTAIR, Canada's maritime contribution to the campaign against terrorism, was operating in the area when a broken call for assistance was heard from a vessel apparently under attack by small arms fire.

Calgary immediately altered course and increased speed to close the scene. Her airborne Sea King was promptly redirected towards the area and tasked to gather information on the situation. The helicopter's arrival in the vicinity of the attack did not go unnoticed by the perpetrators. Two small boats, commonly referred to as skiffs, were observed in the area and appeared to be armed.

"I am convinced that the presence of our aircraft drove them away from the traffic lanes and prevented any further attack today on merchant shipping in the area," said Commander Kelly Larkin, commanding officer of the multi-purpose frigate. "We continued to monitor those two skiffs and their crew as they were heading back towards Somalia territorial waters."

Ships assigned to this crucial operation deploy to the North Arabian Sea, the Gulf of Oman, the Gulf of Aden, and parts of the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, where they work alongside many allied and regional nations, building security and stability by monitoring shipping, and countering
terrorist activity.

Photo Credit:  MCpl Robin Mugridge


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## Ex-Dragoon

Lets try and get back on topic folks.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## Neill McKay

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Lets try and get back on topic folks.
> 
> Milnet.Ca Staff



Could I suggest a split?  There's probably enough on the tangent to stand as its own thread.


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## Sailorwest

geo said:
			
		

> More sailors needed for Canada's warships
> More airmen needed for Canada's expanding air capabilities
> More soldiers needed for Canada's Army
> 
> That's the problem with an economy that is, oddly enough, booming - against all expectations.



I think this is exactly the problem. To a lot of people the military in general, not just the Navy, is hard to sell when they make more and work less without having to go away from home for months at a time. I think very few people really want the lifestyle that comes with it. The afteraffects of the FRP are now being felt big time and the pierhead transfers to operational ships will become the norm. Unfortunately. Despite the strong recruiting campaign going on, I think they are just managing to stay ahead attrition wave.


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## geo

westie... with the slowing down of the economy, the forces may very well have a chance to slow down attrition while improving the quality and number of recruits.... 

A fella can always hope


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## Patchit

*Maybe the Navy should consider closing down for Christmas in order to promote recruitment just like the Australian Navy is doing this year.
See the following link: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6277657*


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## Ex-Dragoon

Patchit said:
			
		

> *Maybe the Navy should consider closing down for Christmas in order to promote recruitment just like the Australian Navy is doing this year.
> See the following link: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6277657*



If people are not joining because they may not have Christmas off then honestly I don't want them in my Navy. You obviously don't know what the Navy does on a day to day basis and the positions it fills if you think the entire organization can be given the day off :


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## Marinero2008

GAP said:
			
		

> More sailors needed for Canada's warships...
> 
> ...They have 8,000 sailors on their books and jobs for 8,600..."We are understaffed. There is no doubt about that,"
> "We are looking at being short by about 300 people per coast and that is not insubstantial."



Me! Me! Me! Take me! Take me!...Nine months I am waiting to get into the military and be a sailor. Yet, they are still processing my application!
And I have my "sea legs" already - from merchant service.  :crybaby:  ;D


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## Patchit

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> If people are not joining because they may not have Christmas off then honestly I don't want them in my Navy. You obviously don't know what the Navy does on a day to day basis and the positions it fills if you think the entire organization can be given the day off :



If you had read the article you will have noticed that they are not closing everything down completely. They still will have a ship in the Gulf, and continue with minor patrols of their northern waters and have a ready duty ship on both the east and west coasts. Try reading the article for what they proposed as a way of increasing recruiting. Being away all the time is destroying the family life. With civilian job applicants able to make the same money that the navy pays their members and not have to leave the local area, most would not consider joining the navy. Being short of crew and still keeping the same level of sailing is burning the sailors they still have out. The article focused around the Christmas break time due to the fact that in most religions Christmas time is usually about the family. Our navy could choose any time as a shut down period if they found this to be beneficial to recruiting members. As for giving the navy a day off (see your last statement), they do it all the time,  they are called National Holidays! I might suggest that in the future you should be less critical of someone you don't know and add some insight to the topic instead. Just to let you know, I do in fact know a lot about the navy since I have over 20 years of service in it.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Well congrats on your 20 years , I will hit mine in Feb. As Navy you then know that not everyone gets every holiday off. Duty watches onboard ships, Watchkeepers at the RCC, Athena and Trinity do not. Yes Stat holidays are generally made up for later, but your statement misleads anyone that does not know any better that you are advocating the complete shutdown for the Navy for one day for recruitment. How will that help with recruitment? I maintain people who join the Navy for what days they might have off, I don't want them, because they will be the ones who skive off.



> I might suggest that in the future you should be less critical of someone you don't know


Well maybe fill out your profile more....


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## Patchit

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Well congrats on your 20 years , I will hit mine in Feb. As Navy you then know that not everyone gets every holiday off. Duty watches onboard ships, Watchkeepers at the RCC, Athena and Trinity do not. Yes Stat holidays are generally made up for later, but your statement misleads anyone that does not know any better that you are advocating the complete shutdown for the Navy for one day for recruitment. How will that help with recruitment? I maintain people who join the Navy for what days they might have off, I don't want them, because they will be the ones who skive off.



As I said previously,  read the whole article (2 pages). The shut down wouldn't be for only one day but a month or two. I'm only submitting this based on the fact that the Australian Navy is having very similar problems to what we are having and they are trying this out. Maybe we can find out how this works for them and try it ourselves. That's all that I was suggesting. You're right in saying that not everyone can be let go but the article explains about skeleton crews, recalls, etc. It would have to be on some sort of rotational basis that we let the members go.


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## Ex-Dragoon

I am just basing my comments on what you said, not the article. How is someone that does not know any better suppose to interpret your initial comments?


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## Eye In The Sky

2 words.

Duty Watch.


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## Snakedoc

Well I guess any enemy force will know the perfect month...or two..to launch a full attack on a nation then  :

Military forces of a country are there to ensure they are ready for just about anything when needed ANYTIME.  This is the very nature of the work we do and the reason why we can't just give essentially the entire navy a month or two off all at the same time just because its Christmas or December, the same is true for doctors, nurses, police officers, or any other essential service at christmas time.


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## Monsoon

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Military forces of a country are there to ensure they are ready for just about anything when needed ANYTIME.



I take it you've never had to try to get anything done in Halifax during the summer block leave period...


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## cobbler

: I hate the media, I really do.

TO CLARIFY THE POINTS IN THOSE ARTICLES

The RAN is not "shutting down".

There will still be duty watches on every ship and every base, and HQ-JOC, NORCOM & AUSFLT watchkeepers will still be going round the clock to support the boys at sea.

The guys deployed to Iraq wont be putting there heals up, and we will still have a Major Fleet Unit doing Op Resolute over the period. The op tempo for our Patrol Boats on the Australian Station wont slow down either. Added to tht will be one vessel on operational standby at each of Fleet Base East, Fleet Base West, Cairns Naval Base and Darwin Naval Base.

What isnt being done is cocktail party trips "up top" (SE Asia), work ups, trials, daily routine work, any shore based training courses. Operational capability doesn't drop at all, most of my mates were on leave last christmas when I was doing Resolute.

The only difference this year and others is that its been extended from a month to 6 weeks (not 2 months as joe journalist is reporting).

Does Canada's Navy not take such a relaxation at christmas? And hell for that matter, does Canada's Army send any of you out to the field in an exercise area of BC for christmas? I thought not. 

What you guys also have to consider is that the christmas/NY holiday period is the summer holiday period in Australia. And also, to take non-public holidays off, you still either have to have accrued leave to take, or be eligable for trainee leave, otherwise its turn to every morning for duty watch.

Hope that clarifies it, I would have expected you'd take what the media report with a grain of salt...


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## ltmaverick25

The truth is, recruiting and retention is an issue that challenges all three of our elements currently.  The army, although the larger element of the three is still considerably understaffed.  This is evidenced by the growing number of reservists being called up for deployments to Afghanistan.  Thankfully for the army alot of reservists are jumping at the chance.

I think the biggest issue facing naval recruitment is that Canada does not have much of a maritime identity outside of the maritime provinces and BC.  Most Canadians think of the army when they think of anything military.  Most people elect to join the army likely dont even realize the full spectrum of options available to them.  I am a good example of this.  My boyhead dream was always to be a fighter pilot, I was also always extremely facinated with the Navy, and yet for some reason that is still unknown to me, I joined the army!  14 years later I have finally transfered over to the Navy and I must say that every day is like xmas compared to my army time.

I am relatively new to the Navy, and only have limited experience in my own trade (MARS) but from what I can tell, we dont exactly do ourselves any favors in the retention department.  I dont know what its like for the other trades, but alot of junior MARS officers that are further along in training than I am are all telling me the same thing... MARS officers like to treat their new guys like absolute garbage.  I have not personally experienced any of this treatment yet, but it seems to be a common story.  I was in Halifax this past weekend doing some training and met a few MARS officers at a local bar and we spoke about training ect...  One of them who had just completed MARS 4 made some interesting points on this matter.  It was his feeling that if at the end of the MARS training members were actually enthusiastic about the Navy and looking forward to their future deployments, we would do much better with retention.  The military is a different animal from civilian life for sure, but that does not mean that behaviors and norms need to be established that serve to discourage long time service in the end.  Just my two cents on the matter.

The other issue the Navy faces, unlike the army is that we are always operational in peace time and in war.  The army during peacetime or absence of a major crisis will not have the high operations tempo that it does now.  Generally speaking, army members are not away from home nearly as often over a long term average as sailors are.  We are always at sea and a time of war or crisis only increases that tempo.  Many people who place high priority on commitment to family can find a career in the Navy to be unapealing because of this.

However, regardless of everything above, I still think the Navy is the best element to serve in, so all of you potential recruits out there thinking about the army, think again!!! learn about the other elements first and make an informed decision!


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## jollyjacktar

I came to the Navy at the 1/2 way point of my 20 Reg years so far.  I still very much enjoy it and have not looked back with regret at the move.  

That being said, despite Mavrick's stars in the eyes, I have noted in my time many a hairy bag bitter and pissed off by 20 or less.  The tempo has slowed some in my time, but I know prior to that it was more hectic.  This may account for the hard feelings I have observed, but don't know. 
On a positive note, however there many like me who are quite content with a sailor's life.

Perhaps with the recent economic downturn that has commenced we may find more interest in the CF with variety of career options, S/L/A.    

So, from the lower decks too, come over to the Dark Blue side of the CF and GO NAVY!


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## Snakedoc

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I take it you've never had to try to get anything done in Halifax during the summer block leave period...



No but i've had to in esquimalt.. :


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## Pat in Halifax

"Me! Me! Me! Take me! Take me!...Nine months I am waiting to get into the military and be a sailor. Yet, they are still processing my application!
And I have my "sea legs" already - from merchant service."
Sorry, still trying to figure out how to use the 'paste' thingy!
Can I safely say on behalf of ALL those currently serving on a ship, if this "application" took more than 30 minutes, someone in CFRG needs a boot in the buttocks!


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## Ex-Dragoon

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> "Me! Me! Me! Take me! Take me!...Nine months I am waiting to get into the military and be a sailor. Yet, they are still processing my application!
> And I have my "sea legs" already - from merchant service."
> Sorry, still trying to figure out how to use the 'paste' thingy!
> Can I safely say on behalf of ALL those currently serving on a ship, if this "application" took more than 30 minutes, someone in CFRG needs a boot in the buttocks!



And it is possible that this persons application might not be filled out correctly, he/she may have information missing etc etc.


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## Pat in Halifax

Fair enough but if an applicant is missing info then ultimately whose responsibility is it to ensure all info is there. When I joined, I had no idea what was required exactly even though, I am sure, it was likely spelled out to me. I guess for me personally to see a comment like that it just bothers me given our shortages...across the board in many trades. These are not isolated cases and I have heard of CompTrans from Reserves taking months as well. 
We have identified the issues, we have opportunity knocking and yet we cannot act. I know a couple Navy recruiters, regardless of 'missing' info could probably have people like that in by "Hands to supper"!


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## ComdCFRG

Took me a bit to see who we were talking about - Korabian.  9 months is a long wait and there are some bona fide reasons why - but it IS frustrating.

Korabian, when was the last time you talked to the recruiting centre, and did they explain what was slowing down your application?  Was it indeed something you needed to provide, or was it a verification by someone else they were waiting for?  No need to explain the details, that is between you and them.

Depending on your answer, it might be time to give them a call.


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## Marinero2008

Thank you everyone for your interest and support. It is appreciated.  
As for the length of my application process, the part of it was medical - it took 3 months to collect all the additional paper work. But the major speed bump is the fact that I was born outside Canada and served in foreign military. I do call my local CFRC every 3-4 weeks for an update but they are still "checking things", as I am told. 
I already had my interview and provided all the information requested of me, so I am almost at the end of the process. At this point I can only patiently wait . I hope that the call will come soon and I will be on my way.
I am really looking forward to joining the Navy. 

Cheers


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## Pat in Halifax

This explains a few things wrt unique circumstances and my apologies to any Recruiters who took offence - not my intent at all. Maybe there is some way to tie into other Governmental departments to streamline this process more?? The shortage has been there for a few years but now has the potential to cause 'operational adjustments' to be made. Our (meaning all of us in the military) response is, unfortunately, that typical knee-jerk reaction.
I truly do hope you can get processed soon and I look forward to the day we may serve alongside one another.


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## ltmaverick25

This particular issue aside the recruiting centers have not always been as fast as one would like.  I used to be the recruiting NCO for my unit and trying to get guys processed  in a timely fashion was often next to near impossible.  Medicals always seem to be the biggest pain.  Ever since Afghanistan the med side of things have been extremely fussy about who they let in.  The biggest problem there is if they see something they dont like, they refer you to a civy doc to get the item checked out, then you bring in the papers back to the recruiting center.  However they dont action it themselves at this point, they forward it to Ottawa for adjudication which takes forever.

But even in cases where the medical is not an issue I have seen applications take up to a year for some guys to get in.

I will use my own CT as a different example.  I went into CFRC Jan 08 and requested a CT to the reg force as MARS.  2 months from the time I submitted all my paperwork goes by and I hear nothing.  So I go back in there to ask them what the status is and they say "oh, we dont process those anymore, they are now done online through DMCA"  Ok fair enough, but why could someone not have called me to let me know that the system had changed since the time I dropped off my application.  They did not have a good answer for that.  Even the DMCA guys took forever to get their acts together on my file.  In the meantime I had enough time to release to the sup res, re-enroll as a MARS officer in the reserves and start parading with my new unit.  I did all of that just to eliminate the burden of booking PSO interviews and VOTs from the DMCA folks.  Since I effectively did all the work myself in a roundabout sort of way I am a few weeks away from the CT offer, but I should not have had to do all that.  A few other people I know did the same sort of thing.

Of course I have also seen other cases where the recruit it sworn in 2.5 months after dropping off all their paperwork so who knows...


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## CountDC

Maybe this has something to do with Navy retention and recruiting:

•	Total 1759 naval personnel deployed, or 26% of trained effective strength.

have to wonder how many of them are on repeat tours - Navy likes to loan mbrs all over the place. Did one guys Sea Time calculation and he was posted to one ship, loaned to another and while loaned there was loaned out to anotehr ship.


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## Halifax Tar

Personally I see allot of young sailors getting out for simple reasons. I think it shows a shift in mind set and it shows were not hiring the same people we did 20 years ago. 

Unfortunately for some if we wish to keep the Navy alive and relevant than we need to look at some of the following:

- Manning (Is it better to do more with less or less with more?)

- Jobs at sea. I know were all sailors/soldiers/air people first but when it gets to the point that equipment isn’t being maintained because upper deck watches have taken precedence than we need to look at this more closely

- Parking. I know it sounds minor but tell that to the young OD who has to park in the ghetto everyday and risk having his/her car broken into. On top of that god forbid the said OD is human, is running behind and decides to park at the yard, because to get a spot within walking distance to the yard requires him/her to be at work for 0545, now he/she has to risk being towed by his/her employer just for showing up for work.

- The separation of the ranks. I know this bites allot of people in the lower decks and in the wardrooms defense I have been seeing man a young A/Slt and Slt agreeing that this needs to come to an end. I could elaborate on many examples of this because of my trade but I will refrain. 

- The idea that you must sacrifice your home/social life for your ship is an antiquated and irrelevant idea these days. Whether we agree with it or not does not matter because the young folk just won’t put up with it. We (the Navy) change or we cease to exist, it’s our call. 

- Promotion and Selection process. I will admit I don’t have anything better to offer than CFPAS off the top of my head, but I know there has to be a better way.

These are just a few I have seen in my 10+ years in the CF/Navy. Feel free to comment


----------



## aesop081

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> - Promotion and Selection process. I will admit I don’t have anything better to offer than CFPAS off the top of my head, but I know there has to be a better way.



If the CF rolled out a new system tomorow morning, you would hear the exact same complaints from the exact same people on Monday morning. That is exactly what happenned when CFPAS was rolled out.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I don't really want to debate this one. If you read my post you will I have no answer I just think there has to be better


----------



## Sub_Guy

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> - Parking. I know it sounds minor but tell that to the young OD who has to park in the ghetto everyday and risk having his/her car broken into. On top of that god forbid the said OD is human, is running behind and decides to park at the yard, because to get a spot within walking distance to the yard requires him/her to be at work for 0545, now he/she has to risk being towed by his/her employer just for showing up for work.



If parking is that big of an issue, the sailor should consider switching coasts!   >  (That's what I did, but I am in the minority who thinks Halifax is a dump, it had nothing to do with the parking)

The main negative thing (which isn't that big of a deal) I have stuck in my head from my glorious Navy days is cleaning dried crap from the toilets.  When you are having a bad watch, the thought of getting off watch only to head down to clean crusty crap from a toilet did NOTHING to improve my morale. 

There are other things that come to mind, "Micro-Manage" is one of them.

Overall the navy is not a bad go, those sailors who are getting out would probably leave no matter what branch of the CF they are in.  It's not just the Navy that is hurting for bodies.


----------



## aesop081

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I don't really want to debate this one.



Fair enough.



> If you read my post you will I have no answer I just think there has to be better



Most people who complain about CFPAS have no answers either, just complaints. Every time a new system rolls around, they find the same faults. Theres always people lining up to complain about how the "better / improved /latest" is screwing them out of their much deserved promotion.

I'm not pointing a finger at you in any way.....just venting.


----------



## whitehorse

I'm over 40 and as a result I probably have nothing intelligent to say here. My one claim to relevance is thirty some years of service in the navy including service when the navy was really struggling to survive in the late seventies and early eighties (i.e. before the CPFs, MCDVs and Trumps). 

Strangely enough while we had real equipment issues, morale was in my humble opinion generally higher than it is now. I can only really attribute this to one cause and that was that at that time no one in charge (i.e. senior officer, CPOs etc) tried to sell the navy as just another job. It was always presented as a challenge which not everyone could do. Things like parking and duty watches including cleaning stations were actually considered relatively trivial, compared to say .... the idea of being combat ready. If you were a sailor you were something special and staying awake nights, dealing with dirty toilets etc etc were part of that 'otherness' that separated us from everyone else.

Forgive me if I sound a bit like a cranky old man but parking?!!! For pity sake the vast majority of civilians out there take a bus to work. In their world parking is for VPs or CEOs!!! Most who drive to work and park, pay for it.

Recruiting, Retention will never come about if we try portraying the navy as just another career choice. It is a difficult, challenging life unlike any other. It can and should demand sacrifices, otherwise we could contract it out to the lowest bidder. 

You know there is one western style military organization that doesn't have recruiting issues despite the combat loss of thousands in the last few years. That institution is called the USMC and while I much prefer being a Canadian sailor I believe we can learn something behind the idea that what we do is special, and that it cannot be done by anyone.

What we do is hard, it has its highs (eg. foreign ports, drug interdictions, boardings, firefighting etc etc) it also has its lows (cleaning stations). If you want just another job, go get another job.

OK OK rant over, sorry but crikey....


----------



## geo

Thank you White Horse....
From one geriatric (30+yrs) soldier to another 
we're pert much singing from the same hymn book


----------



## Snakedoc

Halifax Tar, I'm curious about your point on seperation of the ranks.  I know i'm probably opening a can of worms here but did you have an ideal system in mind when you made this point, one that would help with the recruiting and retention of Canadian sailors?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Whitehorse - You know I agree with you. Unfortunately times have changed and so the people have changed. We were getting a vastly different recruit 30 years ago even 20 years ago. If we want to stay relevant and competitive in getting good smart people in our environment then yes some things will have to change. We are meeting a fork in the road on  this issue. I currently would like an American model, I.E. Lots of short times doing 3 - 5 year hitches and the military offering education plans after time served at the same time the military approaches those deemed suitable for additional hitches. 

The USMC having worked with them and the other branches of the US military take very good care of there people with low low housing, real after service education plans and a whole host of support programs that our tiny military couldn't afford in the slightest. Have you ever seen how much of the DND budget goes to salaries alone... Its shocking. Not too mention the USMC has a mystique and bravado about it many in the US seek to be a part of. 

We can keep going with the old RCN, RN based model we have and just alienate our selves even more quietly becoming more irrelevant in Joe Canadians eyes or we can start to change things for the young sailors and actually try to instill some pride in our Navy. 

I would assume after 30 years in the Navy you are at least a senior rate or mid-senior officer, of course you have pride its what you've done for 30 years, chances are you wouldn't have stuck around if you didn't give a poop about the Navy right ? Well try seeing from the young ODs eyes now. Remember what it was like to be a OD or NCdt. 

Snakedoc -  I will PM you my reply because like you I think that discussion will only open a can of worms that would not be constructive lol I think we can both agree. Please stand by for my reply lol


----------



## cameron

This is a problem that many navies are facing.  The Royal Australian Navy is struggling even harder than the Canadian Navy to man ships, they only have enough crews for half of their six Collins Class subs.  Naval-Technology.com brought out an interesting article on this problem, you can read it here.

http://www.naval-technology.com/feature4406/?mxmroi=6149281/557427/false


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

cameron said:
			
		

> This is a problem that many navies are facing.  The Royal Australian Navy is struggling even harder than the Canadian Navy to man ships, they only have enough crews for half of their six Collins Class subs.  Naval-Technology.com brought out an interesting article on this problem, you can read it here.
> 
> http://www.naval-technology.com/feature4406/?mxmroi=6149281/557427/false



I would not say they are struggling even harder cameron. I am not sure the last time you sailed cameron, but when your ship has to grab personnel from 3 to 5 other ships then that should tell you something.


----------



## BC Old Guy

I think that one of the issues with getting enough people into the Navy is the high number of techs that are required, over 50% of the requirement.  The education and aptitude requirements are higher than non-tech occupations, which means that fewer people qualify.  There is intense competition for the people that have the education and aptitude for tech occupations, with the Air Force and the Army having requirements for high numbers of techs.  There are actually a respectable number of people who want to join the Navy - its just that they don't have the desire or the education for the tech occupations.

Another factor that makes it more difficult to get people into the Navy is that most people are not aware of the occupations available, so they don't apply for Navy occupations.  

Another factor is that the Navy has 2 main locations, one on either coast, while the majority of the population is in Ontario  and Quebec, which means there is less knowledge of the Navy, as well as less interest, as there is little likelyhood of having a posting near to their home.


----------



## axeman

there is that and the problem of the tech courses themselves . If they could break them down to phases of less then or about 6 months it could help increase the amount of man power avalible to the ship.  it wouldaslo  help if a  sailor hammers in on a phase  , that he could redo it without having to do an entire serial or mark time  to await the next course through.  Another problem right now is the fact the CF is sending sailors in traditionally army  jobs . ie Afghanistan  which reduces the amount of readily avalible manpower also . if we look at a parade in DEU's  how many sailors have  goneto someplace that only 5 years ago it would of been unthought of . i can understand the divers filling in on EOD as they have the same skill sets but now  we have how many trades going over to there  because they need a person.


----------



## NCRCrow

The Canadian Navy wants to act like a AEGIS class Navy, with 25 year old radars bought from a Dutch flea market with departments of 6 people, that have remars of 12.(an example) Our techs can only do so much!

It is hard to get people to stay, when you have to do the same expected tasks with half the people and expecting the 6 people to make up for the 72 hours per day of manpower lost.  Then have your Chief tell you that you are sailing on another ship as they are short.

Where are our new ships, helos, phased array radars?

The pay is good and the food is great, but how many times do we have to go to Norfolk!

axeman...I hope your not writing my PER..ouch


----------



## Stoker

Halifax Tar, your right that times have changed. The kind of people we get in now are better educated than we had before and won't put up with the disatisfiers that we as a Navy faced 30 years ago and face today. They know they can easily work in the private sector, be paid a lot more and avoid some of the crap we face today.
As for the low income housing, we did for a time have this, but the Navy in particular has gotten out of this somewhat mostly due to the fact we now make a lot more money and can afford houses, when back in the day money was tight.
I agree we need to instill some pride back in our Navy, I think for instance we should bring back the Naval Gun Run there was a lot of pride in sailors when they tried out and got on the team. Other things are in the works for the 100Th anniversary of the navy that will hopefully raise awaremess.
Your right that parking is a piss off at times, its high time that a parking garage or something gets built in the dockyard. Its easy to say take the bus, but lots of personnel live in areas that there is no bus service or have to be at work before the bus runs. Also back in the day a lot of the Navy lived in Wallis Heights and Shannon Park and went to work in the blue boat everyday.
I think that the attitude if you don't like it get out is going to have to change. They have done that already to lots of people who they called their bluff and guess what? they got out. Right now if you release in Halifax you have to see the Admiral why you want to quit. Its getting that bad on retention right now. If the Navy is going to grow, the way we do business is going to have to change with the times while hopefully keeping our customs and traditions.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I totally agree with all of your points Stoker


----------



## Occam

With regard to the comments about not having any suggestions for a better PER system, and how to fix retention problems in the Navy, I can only offer this:

I don't need to be a fully qualified mechanic (or even a backyard mechanic) to know my car is busted and won't go.  I can offer symptoms like "it goes '_grind grind grind_' when I press the brake pedal", but that has nothing to do with my ability to repair the problem.

Likewise, I don't need a degree in Human Resources Management to know that there are flaws in the PER system (for example).  However, while one may (heavy emphasis on 'may') be able to offer a better solution, it's not my pay grade to do that - there are people who get paid perfectly good money to examine things like CFPAS and make improvements on it.  I have my own work to do, and nobody is pulling extra hours to make my job any easier.  If I had scads of free time in my day I'm sure I'd be able to solve all the CF's problems, but how many of us are actually able to say they have free time?


----------



## JohnnyCanuck1977

If you don't like it get out! I'll see you in a few years when you realize that life in civy street is no fun either and that chances are you still won't have a parking spot in downtown Halifax on the waterfront or within walking distance to your job.  The parking always cracks me up because when you sit down and think about it, could the dockyard handle another thousand maybe two thousand cars parking garage or not. I mean there are only two ways into dockyard and everyone gets off at about 1600 so really just give up on the parking thing lads and do your time and earn your spot. 

As for instiling pride in the Fleet...well that's a different story. In my opinion I think the reason (and I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for this) is that we are to soft on our sailors we make their life to easy. Our OD's get paid very well for the job they are expected to do they get great benifits and care packages they are treated very well. Sure they have to scrub the crappers but hell who the hell is going to do it the CAPTAIN! Work hard and get promoted within 6-8 years you'll be able to but that part of it behind you.  

Getting back to pride thing, the reason simply is that life in the Navy doesn't suck as much as it used to. Sound silly? No way, you want to know why the Marines have so much pride? Being a Marine is a tough life. The training is hard the life is hard, you deploy alot and when I say alot I friggin' mean it I'm talking months away every year. Not to mention the fact that the Marine in his early years really has no say in where he goes, it could be Montana or Montenegro. The Marine feels pride because he knows he's doing a job not everone could do he has a hard job and the fact that it is hard and not everyone wants to do it is what gives him his pride. Navy life these days has a low sense of pride because it has a feeling like this is a job anyone could do there is nothing special here my little sister could do this.

How do we fix this? Well first off, our older sailors need to do a better job of passing on the traditions of' our Navy, do you know that Quartermasters these days are no longer saluting civilian females when they cross the brow anymore. Small thing I know but when I ask why not they tell me they where never taught and besides it's not in the "brow pack".  We need to get the small traditions back and pass them on, tradition breeds pride. Secondly we need to deploy more we need more missions with real substance not just TGEX after TGEX.  When we deploy we accomplish those tasks that not everyone can do.  This seems  counter intuitive to the earlier arguments of lads jetty jumping from ship to ship to sail and to some extent it is. Lastly in order to help folks feel pride at a unit level we simply need more sailors, we feel more pride when we stay on a ship that's"ours" that is "my unit, my shipmates". That's what we had when I joined we had a family and I sailed with my family and my family was stable and they were there when I needed them. Now we change around so much I don't even bother to learn anyones name.

Let the flaming begin.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Stoker said:
			
		

> Halifax Tar, your right that times have changed. The kind of people we get in now are better educated than we had before and won't put up with the disatisfiers that we as a Navy faced 30 years ago and face today. They know they can easily work in the private sector, be paid a lot more and avoid some of the crap we face today.
> As for the low income housing, we did for a time have this, but the Navy in particular has gotten out of this somewhat mostly due to the fact we now make a lot more money and can afford houses, when back in the day money was tight.
> I agree we need to instill some pride back in our Navy, I think for instance we should bring back the Naval Gun Run there was a lot of pride in sailors when they tried out and got on the team. Other things are in the works for the 100Th anniversary of the navy that will hopefully raise awaremess.
> Your right that parking is a piss off at times, its high time that a parking garage or something gets built in the dockyard. Its easy to say take the bus, but lots of personnel live in areas that there is no bus service or have to be at work before the bus runs. Also back in the day a lot of the Navy lived in Wallis Heights and Shannon Park and went to work in the blue boat everyday.
> I think that the attitude if you don't like it get out is going to have to change. They have done that already to lots of people who they called their bluff and guess what? they got out. Right now if you release in Halifax you have to see the Admiral why you want to quit. Its getting that bad on retention right now. If the Navy is going to grow, the way we do business is going to have to change with the times while hopefully keeping our customs and traditions.



From our brief from the Commodore several weeks back, I think we are coming to the crossroads. He mentioned the upcoming 100th anniversay of the founding of the Canadian Navy and how he would like to have some sort of guard made up of some of the ships that are coming off their operational tempo. To be part of those celebrations and if the Navy is smart, they will capitalize on this for public relations. It has the potential to be a coup recruiting wise.

On a side note I did not realize one had to see the Admiral if one was releasing. Very diferent indeed.



> If you don't like it get out! I'll see you in a few years when you realize that life in civy street is no fun either and that chances are you still won't have a parking spot in downtown Halifax on the waterfront or within walking distance to your job.  The parking always cracks me up because when you sit down and think about it, could the dockyard handle another thousand maybe two thousand cars parking garage or not. I mean there are only two ways into dockyard and everyone gets off at about 1600 so really just give up on the parking thing lads and do your time and earn your spot.


I understand the dockyard mateys have the majority of the parking spots, maybe its time the navy stands up to the union to get spots back for the sailors. Life in civvy street must be better because as I understand it, well over half of those releasing do not come back in.



> As for instiling pride in the Fleet...well that's a different story. In my opinion I think the reason (and I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for this) is that we are to soft on our sailors we make their life to easy. Our OD's get paid very well for the job they are expected to do they get great benifits and care packages they are treated very well. Sure they have to scrub the crappers but hell who the hell is going to do it the CAPTAIN! Work hard and get promoted within 6-8 years you'll be able to but that part of it behind you.


We can't treat our sailors the way we were treated and those that came before us were treated. Because guess what, its not working! When something is not working then sometimes a different approach is needed. Most people we have coming in are older, better educated, some already have families and most have held a job. To treat them like they don't have a clue as I said before is not working. Time for a different tact.



> Getting back to pride thing, the reason simply is that life in the Navy doesn't suck as much as it used to. Sound silly? No way, you want to know why the Marines have so much pride? Being a Marine is a tough life. The training is hard the life is hard, you deploy alot and when I say alot I friggin' mean it I'm talking months away every year. Not to mention the fact that the Marine in his early years really has no say in where he goes, it could be Montana or Montenegro. The Marine feels pride because he knows he's doing a job not everone could do he has a hard job and the fact that it is hard and not everyone wants to do it is what gives him his pride. Navy life these days has a low sense of pride because it has a feeling like this is a job anyone could do there is nothing special here my little sister could do this.


I don't think you can fairly compare a Marine to a Sailor, first and foremost a Marine is a combat soldier. That is a brotherhood that a Sailor no matter how pusser or how much pride he has in himself and his unit he will never attain that esprit de corps.



> How do we fix this? Well first off, our older sailors need to do a better job of passing on the traditions of' our Navy, do you know that Quartermasters these days are no longer saluting civilian females when they cross the brow anymore. Small thing I know but when I ask why not they tell me they where never taught and besides it's not in the "brow pack".  We need to get the small traditions back and pass them on, tradition breeds pride. Secondly we need to deploy more we need more missions with real substance not just TGEX after TGEX.  When we deploy we accomplish those tasks that not everyone can do.  This seems  counter intuitive to the earlier arguments of lads jetty jumping from ship to ship to sail and to some extent it is. Lastly in order to help folks feel pride at a unit level we simply need more sailors, we feel more pride when we stay on a ship that's"ours" that is "my unit, my shipmates". That's what we had when I joined we had a family and I sailed with my family and my family was stable and they were there when I needed them. Now we change around so much I don't even bother to learn anyones name.


I don't have a problem if one of my QMs doesn't salute a female crossing the brow. Considering now the majority of the females that cross our brows are fellow sailors. I don't have a problem with that tradition going by the wayside. I do have a problem if my QM does not not what to do in the event of a fire or a flood onboard my ship or another. I think a lot of our problems stem from the fact our new sailors want to get into learning about their trade fkirst and foremost and then we push OSQAB (whatever its called now) etc on them. Yeah it is important for them to know but so is making them feel like they are part of their own depeartment and not doing life bouy sentry 3 times to get it signed off when the department they are in _never_ stands life bouy sentry.

Tradition is good up until it interferes with common sense and good morale. Then it has to change. My 2 cents.


----------



## Stoker

Ex-Dragoon, you have a lot of valid points. How many times I have heard supervisors mainly older ones, use that on their people and guess what people are getting out. Look at the amount of releases after 20, not many staying around. We had the same brief a few weeks too and frankly it left alot of people angry, especially with the fact they have no solutions to our problems and the fact they are limiting us to 130 sea days next year. You right though that its great that the brass are finally understanding some of the problems we are having and are struggling to fix them. Parking is always going to be a problem, they should make the Dockyard mateys carpool too! As for going to see the Admiral I think that is only for more senior people, but still an eye opener all the same.


----------



## Halifax Tar

JohnnyCanuck1977 said:
			
		

> If you don't like it get out! I'll see you in a few years when you realize that life in civy street is no fun either and that chances are you still won't have a parking spot in downtown Halifax on the waterfront or within walking distance to your job.  The parking always cracks me up because when you sit down and think about it, could the dockyard handle another thousand maybe two thousand cars parking garage or not. I mean there are only two ways into dockyard and everyone gets off at about 1600 so really just give up on the parking thing lads and do your time and earn your spot.
> 
> As for instiling pride in the Fleet...well that's a different story. In my opinion I think the reason (and I know I'm going to get raked over the coals for this) is that we are to soft on our sailors we make their life to easy. Our OD's get paid very well for the job they are expected to do they get great benifits and care packages they are treated very well. Sure they have to scrub the crappers but hell who the hell is going to do it the CAPTAIN! Work hard and get promoted within 6-8 years you'll be able to but that part of it behind you.
> 
> Getting back to pride thing, the reason simply is that life in the Navy doesn't suck as much as it used to. Sound silly? No way, you want to know why the Marines have so much pride? Being a Marine is a tough life. The training is hard the life is hard, you deploy alot and when I say alot I friggin' mean it I'm talking months away every year. Not to mention the fact that the Marine in his early years really has no say in where he goes, it could be Montana or Montenegro. The Marine feels pride because he knows he's doing a job not everone could do he has a hard job and the fact that it is hard and not everyone wants to do it is what gives him his pride. Navy life these days has a low sense of pride because it has a feeling like this is a job anyone could do there is nothing special here my little sister could do this.
> 
> How do we fix this? Well first off, our older sailors need to do a better job of passing on the traditions of' our Navy, do you know that Quartermasters these days are no longer saluting civilian females when they cross the brow anymore. Small thing I know but when I ask why not they tell me they where never taught and besides it's not in the "brow pack".  We need to get the small traditions back and pass them on, tradition breeds pride. Secondly we need to deploy more we need more missions with real substance not just TGEX after TGEX.  When we deploy we accomplish those tasks that not everyone can do.  This seems  counter intuitive to the earlier arguments of lads jetty jumping from ship to ship to sail and to some extent it is. Lastly in order to help folks feel pride at a unit level we simply need more sailors, we feel more pride when we stay on a ship that's"ours" that is "my unit, my shipmates". That's what we had when I joined we had a family and I sailed with my family and my family was stable and they were there when I needed them. Now we change around so much I don't even bother to learn anyones name.
> 
> Let the flaming begin.



JohnnyCanuck1977 - I respect your time served and the great things I'm sure you accomplished while in the service of Canada. As stated be though times have changed and we need to do things differently if we want to exist and stay ahead of the game. I don't want want to sound like an *** to you because the military (read Navy) was much better in many ways in your day but those ideas and thought processes are invalid now and simply display an unwillingness to display. 

If you want a good happy sailor who's ready to do his duty lets make sure his home/social life is in order so he doesn't have other things on his mind and can concentrate on being a good sailor. This will keep people around.

I was at the commodores brief too, he herd HMCS Toronto loud and clear. We are tired and we need a rest but will he listen ? That is the million dollar question.

Parking is just that simple. Give it to the men or it will be one of those things that drive good people out. 

Oh and just so you know all my QMs know to salute civi females when crossing the brow.  ^-^


----------



## hugh19

Tell ya what when female QM's start saluting males when the come onboard then I will start saluting women when they come on board.


----------



## tabernac

Someone want to let me on this little tradition here?


----------



## hugh19

Apparently the quartermasters where supposed to salute women coming onboard the ship. But it has fallen out of favour as who wants to salue a 19 year old private or OD who is coming to visit?


----------



## DONT_PANIC

sledge said:
			
		

> Apparently the quartermasters where supposed to salute women *civilian *  coming onboard the ship. But it has fallen out of favour as who wants to salue a 19 year old private or OD who is coming to visit?


----------



## hugh19

OK put them in civvies and tell them apart. is it there pusser high and tight haircut?


----------



## Occam

If the tradition were being passed on in the manner it should be, then the female Pte/OS that are coming aboard in civilian clothing would know to wave off the salute.  Even if they don't, what harm has it caused you as QM to have cranked off a salute?

For cheeky_monkey - it is customary as a Naval tradition to salute female civilians as they cross the brow.  I believe it used to be part of CFP 201 (Manual of Drill and Ceremonial), but the reference has been changed somewhat to indicate that salutes may be given to civilians as a mark of respect upon greeting or farewell.


----------



## hugh19

The way Ilook at it is, you either want to be treated as equal or not as equals. Hence no salute.


----------



## Occam

sledge said:
			
		

> The way Ilook at it is, you either want to be treated as equal or not as equals. Hence no salute.



It's a courtesy, nobody is asking you to carry them across the brow in your arms.  It costs nothing and it looks professional.

Do you still open doors for women?  Address civilians as sir or ma'am while in uniform?  It's courtesy, and it's a bloody shame it's going out the window.  Lead by example.


----------



## geo

Saluting a fully loaded hearse is also "paying a courtesy"

Once upon a time, on the street, you'd also salute a lady, hold open the door for her, hold her chair as she was seated & stand when a lady would enter the room (at least on her 1st entry).

There is also the coutresy of standing upon the entry of the CO.

There is also the courtesy of standing upon the entry of the RSM (at least in the WOs & Sgts mess).


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Back on topic please!


Milnet.Ca Staff


----------



## JohnnyCanuck1977

Thanks Dragoon. Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest with the saluting at the brow thing. My opinions are my own and I'm not an eloquent enough speaker to get my point across in a forum. I don't really know why folks leave the fleet in droves but I have a theory. I think it's safe to say that it is not the money, we get paid very well these days so I don't think it's the money. I also don't think that parking is really that big a concern, well maybe an annoyance but not a deal breaker even the newest of OD's can see that if every civilian gave up their spot the wait time for a spot would only drop a small amount instead of 15 years in for a spot it would be 10 maybe less but OS Bloggins still ain't parking on the base.  Duty watches and cleaning stations are definite dissatisfies but that isn't going away either, but these are duties that lessen and get better the longer you stay in.

All my previous rhetoric aside I still think the reason sailors leave is job satisfaction, pride. It just isn't there anymore. You go on deployment, you go on exercises or patrol and when it's over what do you get? A few days off, wow thanks. Don't get me wrong time off is a good thing.  But what happened to the days of splicing the main brace after a stint at sea? Or what's wrong with the lads having a few beers on the uppers when their painting the ship? What's wrong with bringing a little music out while your at it? When was the last time anyone enjoyed a stokers open or a Banyan that didn't feel somehow forced? Or for that matter when was the last time a mess got a cake or flat of beer for having their mess well turned out for Co's rounds? The root of the problem as I see it is that we work hard and don't play hard, because we're not allowed to anymore.

For instance I recall and this was awhile back, I was in Protecteur and we where on deployment in the Gulf. We had a chance to play the Dubai Camels in a friendly game of hockey during our next port visit. The folks on board were pretty excited but alot had forgotten their gear at home. So the MFRC back in Victoria offered to help ship everyones gear out to the ship. We spent alittle over a month at sea on patrol and were about 2 days away from coming alongside Dubai, the gear had been shipped the game booked and ready the men were even training in preparation for the game. The XO cancelled the game just prior to our coming alongside! He defended his decision based on the fact that he didn't want anyone to get injured!  Well needless to say their was alot of disappointed people onboard and ashore.

But this is what happens everyday to a lesser extent and not as obvious but slowly along the way we've lost our ability to adequately recognize the hard work sailors as groups and individuals put into making each sail happen.  And part of the reason why this is, is because we are short money, people and our leaders are short in vision.  What we as sailors do now to prepare for a sail was once considered extraordinary but because of budget cuts and being short manned the extraordinary has become ordinary. When I first joined it was unheard of except in unusual situations like Protecteurs 10 day notice to sail for East Timor, for members of the ships to work 24hrs a day right up until the ship sails. Take the old Tanker for example everytime we sail it takes a herculean effort by both the ships company and dockyard to get her to go.  We've got techs and even operators working shifts over 24hrs to assist dockyard workers prepare the ship to sail. And when it's all done and we sail, what do we get? Nothing usually maybe an extra day off but no real sense that what you just did was special. I know that what happens on the Tanker isn't unique to that ship, that the same thing is happening countless times throughout the fleet. We are all fighting for the same parts, same techs from ashore and we are all trying to fill our remars to sail from the same group of people. On the topic of personnel the last TGEX I think was the icing on the cake as far as doing as much as we could with as few people as possible. That TGEX was a flat out "bag drive".  We had ships issuing critical manning request during port visits, we had men and women transferring from one ship to another during port visits then back again in the next port just to fill different requirements at different stages of the EX. 

Is there an easy answer? No. No one thing is going to make this better, but I think if we found a way to recognize the hard work of individuals and ships companies we'd be stepping in the right direction. I've seen ships try before but for some reason it never lasts. You know like sailor of the month prizes, gift certificates for doing something especially good. I don't know a plague or shiny sticker,  tickets to a movie, heck maybe even give the guy a rotation off in the duty watch, something anything would be better than nothing. The bottom line is job satisfaction we used to have now we don't. Even I don't have the gun ho bravado I used to have I know hard to believe eh? : I used to be hard core, now I'm getting more bitter everyday, just a few years to go then I'm outta here. Anyway I've rambled off again.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Johnny no worries your message came across just fine. Having done the QM and BM, saluting a female in civillian dress  never helped with my pride and I saw it more of a peeve then anything else.

I agree that duty watches and cleaning stations will never go away but you know what would make a duty watch more tolerable for a lot of people? If they knew that they were guaranteed to get that next day off, none of the "we will see if we can let you slide at lunch bs". Another sore point for some as well is getting hit by Sea Training. Whether you do or not I don't think units getting hit every day or two accomplishes much, when half the duty watch lose sleep waiting for it to happen. I am not saying Sea Training does not serve a purpose because it does. Just gets old rather quick.

As for the manning issue I agree we are hurting. I know I try and sell the navy but I won't sugarcoat it either. Someone wants to know what I like and dislike I tell them. If they can see past the negative aspects and still want to join then I say bonus.


----------



## JohnnyCanuck1977

Agreed next day off should be a given for duty watches. I try my best to get my boys off the next day but it usually gets shot down at the PO level.


----------



## Stoker

JohnnyCanuck1977 said:
			
		

> Agreed next day off should be a given for duty watches. I try my best to get my boys off the next day but it usually gets shot down at the PO level.



My guys get the next day off unless something unexpected comes up, I'm lucky that I don't have to clear it with anyone and no one micro manages me.  Some supervisors are so set in their ways that they will keep the guys on board even if there's nothing to do, because "that's the way I was treated". As for saluting females, we do enforce it but its usually in a foregin port only. ST(A) does hit a lot, but to tell you the truth I think they wouldn't be hitting so much if ships passed their exercises, I know that's for my class of ship. As for not getting enough sleep because sea training is going to hit, well that's their fault isn't it? They're going to hit and there's nothing you can do about it, of course you can't force them to sleep. If people ask me whats it like to sail, I tell them its not for everybody and they should join the reg force.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Well your one of the decent ones then Stoker.


----------



## NCRCrow

My policy is the afternoon off if they have deserved it  and nothing significant is happening. It is not a given right.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

And most sailors realize that if there is something going on, then chances are they are not getting out of there is slim to none. but when nothing is going on then for gawds sakes let them go, especially if it helps with morale. 

You know you have a good group of guys when they let you know that they are staying when stuff is on the go.


----------



## NCRCrow

Please post me to that ship. I could use a break.


----------



## Halifax Tar

All good and valid points and I mean all of them. 

You know i think we can all agree no one here has the golden ticket that will fix our manning issues. Having said that I think that is the main issue I really do. 

Were lucky on the Toronto that we sail so much on our own we get most or allot of the pier head jumps but when the times comes that our tempo slows down I know we will start seeing the boys live out of green duffel bags again. 

Also the day off after a duty watch should be a given, no matter what trade or rank. We recently had a dept coordinator on board who didn't think our troops should get the a day off for standing a watch on the weekends. This was bitterly fought and the coordinator was defeated, thankfully. 

You know with this economic down turn were heading into or are in now we could see an influx of people. Our biggest influxes are usually when the economy is down. So we will have to watch and shoot on that one but here's to hoping.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

HFXCrow's post was removed because it was needlessly confrontational. Back on topic. Full stop!

Milnet.Ca Staff


----------



## NCRCrow

:-\


----------



## Stoker

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> You know with this economic down turn were heading into or are in now we could see an influx of people. Our biggest influxes are usually when the economy is down. So we will have to watch and shoot on that one but here's to hoping.



I hope so too, however to tell you the truth I don't think we will get that "influx of people", I think we will get some but not a lot. The type of young Canadian today doesn't give a rats ass about the military, sadly its the immigrant that seems more patriotic than the rest.


----------



## teabag

Johnny and Ex-Dragoon have made strong contributions to this topic.  I've been in the Canadian Navy for a little over two years, and as an OD, I was surprised by the replies in this topic.  Personally my views are similar to the opinions Johnny has posted thus far.  With my limited experience I want to elaborate a little though.

To clarify, my mindset is probably different than the "normal" recruit simply because of my experiences and upbringing.  Of course I cannot speak for the entire breadth that is the lower ranks.  So please take this with a grain of salt.

In basic, I was told to be proud and given a booklet that expounded the pillars of the Canadian military and how it shapes our ethos.  Duty, loyalty, integrity, and courage.  It was a powerful message and something that I had been looking for as a formula for living my life.  I try to remind myself of what I was taught when carrying out my duties as a junior member of the Ship's company.

But not everyone sees the same way I do.  Not everyone is ready or willing to accept those tenets as advocated by the Canadian Forces.  It's not because it is impossible but because a lot of recruits are sometimes still immature in many ways and lack perspective.  Some of that perspective can be gleaned through hardship, as Johnny has mentioned.  Hardship is required because the non-commissioned core should thrive in such an environment.  What could not be obtained with brains or money is accomplished through a sweaty, longer detour.  I believe very few ODs, when faced with a menial task, will question themselves, "If I don't do this, who's going to do it?"  An understanding of how a junior member fits into the bigger scheme of things may help to reduce bitterness and ultimately the feelings of "I don't want to be here."  Forming the proper frame of mind in order to appreciate the importance, however small, of what one is doing can be very difficult for a new recruit.  

The ideal would be for all recruits to have the "right" mindset, and be the disciplined sailors, soldiers, and air personnel that Officers would have little trouble leading.  Reality, however, has a swift kick.

And while I admit that the Navy may not be as harsh an environment as it was several years ago, or a decade ago, it is still a demanding one.  And while our economy may not be the best and the greatest, the standard of living is relatively good for a lot of citizens.  A certain type of expectation seems to have arisen as a result; something along the lines of "I deserve better than this." or "Man, I'd rather work two jobs than deal with what I do here.".  What good reason is there for a well-educated citizen who, besides for love of the country and its people, would choose the Canadian Forces as its first employer if they saw both sides of the story? (I didn't mean to phrase it as a question, sorry)

Think I've sidetracked.  Something else I wanted to note was the prevalence of entertainment and debauchery that exists to entice and corrupt what otherwise would be decent soldiers, sailors, or air personnel.  Just think of all the gadgets and devices that have sprouted in the past five years - the amount of electricity consumption per household has probably jumped markedly since the advent of the computer chip.  What I'm trying to say is that camaraderie seems to have suffered as a result of this - personal DVD players, laptops, video games, music players, etc.  Sailors simply don't interact with one another as often anymore, and the whole "family" framework needs to be re-evaluated.  Mess activities do not draw as many participants anymore; personnel would rather do something else with their time.  Heck, I'm just as guilty, but the questions is why?  

There are a myriad of little details that contribute to the attrition and retention issues that the Navy is facing.  But it is my firm belief that above and beyond all that, the values that an individual holds in their heart is the ultimate deciding factor.  With a good mindset, one is more readily able to actively identify and assist in rectifying the small things to improve the whole.  Duty, loyalty, integrity, and courage.  It sounds fluffy; there is plenty of loyalty and courage by the looks of it, but there are four pillars for a reason.  Perhaps we've grown too comfortable in this day and age.  And while I cannot think of one solution alone that can remedy said issues, I worry if all this will be a future trend.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Nicely and eloquently put teabag  even if you did not agree with me


----------



## FMR

geo said:
			
		

> More sailors needed for Canada's warships
> More airmen needed for Canada's expanding air capabilities
> More soldiers needed for Canada's Army
> 
> That's the problem with an economy that is, oddly enough, booming - against all expectations.



The problem was due of Liberal Party and Conservator Party between 1990-2001, who cuts in CF from 11 billion to 7 billion in 1995-2001...40.000+ soldiers (From regular and Reserve) had the permissions to quit CF because they had no salary. Canada had 130,000 personal in Air,Maritime and Land Forces command or approximately 90.000 regular and 40.000 reserve with a budget of 11 billion (in 1990 that was approximately 20 billion today with inflation). Today Canada have 98.000 or 100.000 personal ( 70.000 Regular, 30.000 reserve ) and a budget of 19.5 billion. Some military specialist claim we most have minimum 130.000 to 150.000 personal and 30 to 50 billion dollar in military budget. Since Mr. Harper and Mr. McKay CF have much more capacity and personal but..not enough in comparison in 1990s when we had 90.000 regular personal and 40.000 reserves (Strong forces for a country like Canada). Today we have a very small and seriously cheap army, because Federal Party always cut in CF and made many mistake such the cancellation of the Joint Support Ships.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

The JSS was an abortion anyways and most of the Navy is glad the project was cancelled so we can actually get a practical AOR and not the monstosity the JSS became.

Seriously cheaparmy??? What are you smoking, you do know they have bought new tanks, new howitxers some new MPVs right?


----------



## Springroll

Teabag...awesome post!

You very eloquently stated exactly what i was thinking...awesome!


----------



## FMR

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> The JSS was an abortion anyways and most of the Navy is glad the project was cancelled so we can actually get a practical AOR and not the monstosity the JSS became.
> 
> Seriously cheaparmy??? What are you smoking, you do know they have bought new tanks, new howitxers some new MPVs right?



Never said the M777 or whatever is cheap but Canada have no plan for future like the speech of Harper "Canada First Defence" its only a speech not a real project without plan and no budget and no planing such the replacement of the Tribal Class or AOR. Sometime i believe CF are not take has a serious investment since 1990s (after the cold war). Canada Federal Government always waiting until the last minute after some crash and serious wounded or casualty for purchases new equipment but sometime they cancel the program such the EH-101 in 1990s or the Joint Support Ship..and now the CH-148 are seriously in danger to be cancelled. This is my point why i said "Cheap" , because Federal made CF cheap with old 40 years equipment..and now need personal but the recruitment take so much time (i still waiting after 6 months)...some country take everyone whatever you don't have your secondary 3 (grade 10) or you're a criminal they don't care (Like US Military). I'm probably sure if Canada accelerated the selection the need of much more personal will be completed in only 6months or 1 years.


----------



## Stoker

FMR said:
			
		

> Never said the M777 or whatever is cheap but Canada have no plan for future like the speech of Harper "Canada First Defence" its only a speech not a real project without plan and no budget and no planing such the replacement of the Tribal Class or AOR. Sometime i believe CF are not take has a serious investment since 1990s (after the cold war). Canada Federal Government always waiting until the last minute after some crash and serious wounded or casualty for purchases new equipment but sometime they cancel the program such the EH-101 in 1990s or the Joint Support Ship..and now the CH-148 are seriously in danger to be cancelled. This is my point why i said "Cheap" , because Federal made CF cheap with old 40 years equipment..and now need personal but the recruitment take so much time (i still waiting after 6 months)...some country take everyone whatever you don't have your secondary 3 (grade 10) or you're a criminal they don't care (Like US Military). I'm probably sure if Canada accelerated the selection the need of much more personal will be completed in only 6months or 1 years.



It's true the US has lowered their recruiting standards, last year something like 12 percent required "moral waivers" in order to join. It's not surprising though, since they're in a major unpopular war. As for Canada lowering the recruiting standards, I think we lowered them enough if the kind of recruit we get now is any indication. I know you have been waiting 6 months but there is a process that must be followed and you will get there. Are there any problems that are hanging you up?


----------



## royalnomad

Hello all, my ot is in and hope to get my msg in march.  another one leaving the army .


----------



## sm1lodon

Does retention increase or decrease on ships that are actually engaged in shooting at enemies, or for the supply ships, actually engaged in resupply due to the warships actively engaged in shooting at enemies?


----------



## hugh19

As far as I can remember except for American fishermen, the last time the Canadian navy shot at anyone in anger was in Korea.


----------



## JohnnyCanuck1977

Great post Teabag good to hear it from your side and your generation.  And I too fear for the future if this trend continues.


----------



## Halifax Tar

What exactly do you fear JC77 and Teabag ? 

I'm not typing this in a "poop disturbing" manner but is it the changes that need to happen that you fear ? Or the lack of personnel ?


----------



## sm1lodon

I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

sm1lodon said:
			
		

> I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.



We know that that is one of the risks when we get in the Navy, if it happens then it happens. Thwere are lots of reasons why we cannot retain people and most are found in the navy forums.


----------



## Halifax Tar

sm1lodon said:
			
		

> I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.



I think you may be right. We haven't fired a war shot sense Korea. We have done some great things but were don't make much of a ripple in the news. For instance how fast did the VDQs mission vaporize ? It was off the radar screen of the CBC and CTV in a few weeks. Why ? Well I wasn't there but I suspect it was because escorting ships uneventfully just isn't as compelling or exciting to Joe Canada as Afghanistan, Gaza or the 43rd round of the Kamloops house league minor pee wee hockey draft. 

I know when I go back home for leave I'm always asked "We have a Navy ?" or "What do you guys do in the Navy ?" 

Had interesting epulates off conversation with a LT(N) on my ship yesterday about retention and issues facing the navy, lets just say he didn't realize the dependence rank plays in quality of life on board ship VS in the field or on an Air Field.


----------



## sm1lodon

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> We know that that is one of the risks when we get in the Navy, if it happens then it happens. Thwere are lots of reasons why we cannot retain people and most are found in the navy forums.



Risk? That is my point. I imagine people don't join the Navy with the thought that combat is some remote risk. For some people, it would be the whole POINT. Warriors like to see their inclinations used for combat, making a positive difference in the world through force of arms.

My point was, without actual combat, boredom would become pandemic, morale low.

There was higher morale on the Bismarck during its final voyage, especially after sinking the Hood, than there would have been if it just sailed around in circles, rattling its sabres for years, I imagine, if it was crewed by actual warriors.

If people join any military force hoping there will be NO combat, then I can see where they would be happy if none happened. I don't imagine that most people join with that attitude, though, at least, not in anything combat-related.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> or the 43rd round of the Kamloops house league minor pee wee hockey draft.



I got to watch that!  Excellent stuff.  Look out for Todd Cooper, a steal, taken 189th overall.

The sad truth is the media doesn't really care what the navy does, because generally everyone who leaves with the ship, comes back with the ship.  If no one was dying in Afghanistan it wouldn't be in the news at all.

Sure the navy isn't out there firing shots and sinking ships, but who is?  India?  I am willing to bet the morale on the ships that just returned from the gulf and on the VDQ is actually quite high, higher than say on those ships who didn't sail or those who just did local ops.

You do not need actual combat for high morale.  I highly doubt this is the reason for anyone leaving the Navy.


----------



## teabag

> What exactly do you fear JC77 and Teabag? Is it the changes that need to happen that you fear? Or the lack of personnel?


 My worries are just that - worries.  They creep up every so often while I carry out my daily routine but I try not to dwell too much on it.  For example, I worry that my attitude and views may one day grow to reflect some of the exact same sentiments that have been expressed in this topic by various contributors.  Many of the issues brought up were valid, to an extent, and are seemingly tangible obstacles to a more fulfilling, enjoyable military career.  I cannot pinpoint exactly what changes need to happen; as an OD I follow my orders and keep my personal opinions to myself for the most part.  Lack of personnel is a reality and not a concern for someone of my rank, but I can imagine that it will exacerbate job stress and fuel negativity among those currently serving.

In hindsight, there were many subject gaps in my previous post and points I should have added.  A career in the Navy seems to require a lot flexibility; with schedules, expectations, environments, sacrifices, etc.  People are entitled to live their life as they believe they ought to.  People are quick to note deficiencies and irregularities because it is part of our nature.  And people continue to struggle - to find appreciation in what they already have.  I'm starting to ramble because my lack of experience is making it difficult to speak for and cover all aspects of this discussion.  Bottom line is there are people out there who have it worse.  A lot worse.  We have every right to want things to be more convenient, more understanding, and more sensible.  The Navy may very well have to be completely redefined to match what today's military personnel would like it to be.

But aren't we being a little selfish?  Boats exist to sail and dedicated individuals are needed to sail it.  What are the priorities right now, on our minds, and how do they compare with the priorities of the Department of National Defense?  Are the majority of sailors who release do so because they are fed up, or is it because their priorities have been adjusted?  Perhaps there is nothing terribly wrong with the Navy.  Could it be possible that this issue as we see it is simply an indication of a greater cultural and/or social movement in Canada?

Am I going completely off-topic?



> I wonder if there was some actual combat, if it would be so hard to retain people in the Navy.


 Good point.  How many personnel can admit that in the course of their careers they have never wanted to feel the thrill and anticipation of combat?  You see it in the recruiting campaign all the time: Fight chaos.  Fight fear.  Fight with the Canadian Forces.  It's an effective marketing tool that gives the impression that we are constantly and proactively engaging the enemy.  (not that we're not...) Things are made that much easier when you can point a finger at someone to direct all your intentions.  I have no doubt there are many who crave and are nourished by the thought of engaging a target.  Who's to say if that constitutes a good reason to join the military?  It's certainly none of my business - yet for some reason it makes me uncomfortable.

How you make a positive difference in the world is a matter of perspective.  For some, the use of force may be the sole motivating factor for their involvement with the military.  For others, it can be quite the opposite.  The question becomes whether both groups are capable of taking the opposite stance and still function effectively.  I believe somewhere up the chain of command these philosophical questions are being addressed but the findings of which are better left unspoken.

Then again, the whole idea of introducing and emphasizing the core values important to the military - as done in basic training - is an attempt to unify the ethos that binds us all together, no?  This is done so that things like the use of arms do not become the only guiding principle for impressionable recruits?  So that notions of duty take precedence over personal fulfillment?


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

> You do not need actual combat for high morale.  I highly doubt this is the reason for anyone leaving the Navy.


Agreed


----------



## NCRCrow

I see the repetition of tasks at all levels a factor such as WUPS, OTT Cleaning stations (which are never good enough), Duty watches  etc. etc. It is just nonstop plus all the admin (PDR's, Div Notes)
The ports are getting repetitive as well, with Norfolk, Boston, St John's the norm. 

Our retention problem for the newer people to me is boredom.


----------



## Monsoon

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Had interesting epulates off conversation with a LT(N) on my ship yesterday about retention and issues facing the navy, lets just say he didn't realize the dependence rank plays in quality of life on board ship VS in the field or on an Air Field.



Really? You were an officer before you reverted to the ranks? How long were you in the army and air force before that?

Not having to do cleaning stations is nice, I guess, but I never cease to be amazed by the extent to which people are prepared to believe that they know about everything the officers on their ship do. Nothing more aggravating that spending 60 hours in a week alongside (when mostly everyone else is off on pre-deployment leave) revising and re-revising a deployment FLEX and then having to grit your teeth and try to look sympathetic during an "epaulets-off" conversation with someone who thinks you aren't carrying your weight. I also note that C&POs never seem to suffer from that, but I guess what they do is more easily observed.


----------



## NCRCrow

Your last line ref C&PO's, could you elaborate?

I agree with you on the Officers and the work load and responsibility they carry on a Ship. Not to mention the myriad of messages, to write, check, have the XO's pen slice and dice. Rewrite.

Look at the role of PO1 Director's with the responsibility for EW, ASUW and AWW or ASW plus running a section.

I thought it was alot easier to be a LS.


----------



## Monsoon

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Your last line ref C&PO's, could you elaborate?



Just saying I've never heard an LS say that the C&POs have it easy on ship. Maybe it happens and I just wasn't around.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I see the repetition of tasks at all levels a factor such as WUPS, OTT Cleaning stations (which are never good enough), Duty watches  etc. etc. It is just nonstop plus all the admin (PDR's, Div Notes)
> The ports are getting repetitive as well, with Norfolk, Boston, *St John's * the norm.
> 
> Our retention problem for the newer people to me is boredom.



And what's wrong with St. John's?


----------



## Stoker

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And what's wrong with St. John's?



I think what he means that the ships go to some ports over and over including St.John's. There's lots of ports out there and something different is nice once and a while.


----------



## NCRCrow

absolutely nothing wrong with the Stetson!!


----------



## Pat in Halifax

True, true - Best 'foreign port' going!! Actually, rec'd a brief from CCFL last week and I guess he directed the coordinator in the Starchamber at MARLANT to ban Norfolk from upcoming deployments. Options - Boston (HAL), Mayport (STJ??). I am sure Norfolk will find it's way in though.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Ah the usual suspects.  

Boston, nice the first couple of times but got to the point I did not even leave the ship last couple of visits. 

Norfolk, good shopping at the NEX and malls but need more time & better transport to go see interesting parts of VA.  

Mayport, zzzzzzzzzz.

St John's, sadly only had the pleasure once in 2000. OUTSTANDING ! #1

Fleet Week in Ft Lauderdale a  few years back was great.  NYC Fleet Week not nearly so but the citizens of the Big Apple more than made up for it as usual.  Fantastic foreign ports.

And Quebec city was interesting and which was strange for home, really did feel like a foreign port.


----------



## axeman

OFFTOPIC im out here in Quebec  / Valcartier to be exact. kinda odd to be a Hull teh and going in a airforce/ or army role again , and it is a differnt country . Ive been given lectures in french when i've told my chain of command i dont speak french.  Well i can sympathize with the whole distinct language issue . But at this time it WILL put lifes and careerrs at risk. If a soldier sailor airman goes off thinking i think i understood what they were saying . they will find out that if they screw up the JAG and systemwill hang them for it .  When i ask for translations or classes to be in english as there are enough anglos  to warrent it we have been snubbed.  While great to visit  i would not want to live here  well at least in this section anyway .  back to your regular scheduled topic..


----------



## gongsh0w

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> True, true - Best 'foreign port' going!! Actually, rec'd a brief from CCFL last week and I guess he directed the coordinator in the Starchamber at MARLANT to ban Norfolk from upcoming deployments. Options - Boston (HAL), Mayport (STJ??). I am sure Norfolk will find it's way in though.




Good news, I could go a couple years without seeing the folk again.


----------



## Marinero2008

An update here. I finally got the call with an offer for NE Tech. Canadian Navy here I come!


----------



## CountDC

korabian said:
			
		

> An update here. I finally got the call with an offer for NE Tech. Canadian Navy here I come!



That's it, I am quitting the Navy!!!   ;D

Congrats.


----------



## Marinero2008

Hey! Thanks!
And don't you dare be quitting now. I ain't pulling them mooring lines by myself!  ;D


----------



## Occam

korabian said:
			
		

> I ain't pulling them *mooring lines* by myself!  ;D



That's "berthing hawsers" or "berthing lines".  

Let the learning begin. ;D


----------



## CountDC

korabian said:
			
		

> Hey! Thanks!
> And don't you dare be quitting now. I ain't pulling them mooring lines by myself!  ;D



Ok, I'll be the PO standing back telling you to "geetoititsnotdathard" and "hapsyaneedexercise" while balancing my coffee on my chief kit.  If I'm not conveniently in the office doing "required paperwork" that just has to be done now or the world will end.   ;D


----------



## Marinero2008

CountDC said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll be the PO standing back telling you to "geetoititsnotdathard" and "hapsyaneedexercise" while balancing my coffee on my chief kit.  ;D



I can live with that! So, you are staying? Great!


----------



## Marinero2008

Occam said:
			
		

> That's "berthing hawsers" or "berthing lines".
> Let the learning begin. ;D



I stand corrected. "Mooring lines", that's the merchant marine talk. I gotta lose that now.  ;D


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## Ex-Dragoon

korabian said:
			
		

> I stand corrected. "Mooring lines", that's the merchant marine talk. I gotta lose that now.  ;D



Just some friendly advice....You may want to leave your past experience out altogether, because I can guarantee you will get razed for the rest of your career the first time you say anything like.."well in the merchant marine we do it this way"


----------



## Marinero2008

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Just some friendly advice....You may want to leave your past experience out altogether, because I can guarantee you will get razed for the rest of your career the first time you say anything like.."well in the merchant marine we do it this way"



Yes, I do realize that. It's a totally new life now. Different ball game, as they say. Thanks for the tip Ex-Dragoon!


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## Bruce Monkhouse

korabian said:
			
		

> Yes, I do realize that. It's a totally new life now. Different ball game, as they say. Thanks for the tip Ex-Dragoon!



Yea, you don't want any part of your former life to keep reminding people of your new one, just ask Ex-Dra......um,..hmm, never mind. :-*


----------



## MARS

Nothing earth shattering here but...

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Chronicle Herald
-----------------------------------
Senator: Sailors needed 

By Our Staff
Fri. Jul 3 - 4:46 AM

The chairman of the Senate committee on national security and defence says the navy needs more than a few good men and women.

"It’s a huge concern," Sen. Colin Kenny said in an interview Thursday. "It’s not just East Coast ships.

"The navy overall is light by about 10 per cent."

Earlier this week, Vice-Admiral Dean McFadden told The Chronicle Herald’s editorial board that the navy needs more sailors on East Coast ships. He said only about 2,200 of 2,463 East Coast naval positions are filled.

Mr. Kenny said he had assumed the numbers would pick up because economic times are tough and the navy provides steady work that pays well.

"One of the difficulties McFadden is also going to face is the people going out are going out with years of skill and experience, and the people coming in are going to be brand new and it will take them a while to acquire those skills," Mr. Kenny said.

"And so, even when they are recruited, it’s not a swap one for one because it takes 15 years to have 15 years’ experience."

The Senate committee is coming to Nova Scotia next week to meet with the ranks at 14 Wing Greenwood and 12 Wing Shearwater. They will also take part in a dinner at Dalhousie University.
----------------------------------------
 sorry, ever since the server upgrade I can't seem to change font sizes/styles or insert hyperlinks from my work computer.  But that is the entire article and is available at the Chronicle Herald website.


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## freakerz

I hope that means Comm Research recruits will have the possibility to serve on ships in 2010-2011..  ;D


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## Stoker

MARS said:
			
		

> Nothing earth shattering here but...
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Chronicle Herald
> -----------------------------------
> Senator: Sailors needed
> 
> By Our Staff
> Fri. Jul 3 - 4:46 AM
> 
> The chairman of the Senate committee on national security and defence says the navy needs more than a few good men and women.
> 
> "It’s a huge concern," Sen. Colin Kenny said in an interview Thursday. "It’s not just East Coast ships.
> 
> "The navy overall is light by about 10 per cent."
> 
> Earlier this week, Vice-Admiral Dean McFadden told The Chronicle Herald’s editorial board that the navy needs more sailors on East Coast ships. He said only about 2,200 of 2,463 East Coast naval positions are filled.
> 
> Mr. Kenny said he had assumed the numbers would pick up because economic times are tough and the navy provides steady work that pays well.
> 
> "One of the difficulties McFadden is also going to face is the people going out are going out with years of skill and experience, and the people coming in are going to be brand new and it will take them a while to acquire those skills," Mr. Kenny said.
> 
> "And so, even when they are recruited, it’s not a swap one for one because it takes 15 years to have 15 years’ experience."
> 
> The Senate committee is coming to Nova Scotia next week to meet with the ranks at 14 Wing Greenwood and 12 Wing Shearwater. They will also take part in a dinner at Dalhousie University.
> ----------------------------------------
> Its not surprising, we're probally going down to a three MCDV's worth of manpower this fall. With the economy the way it is right now, its surprising that we don't get more people wanting to join.


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## CountDC

The Adm has made this his top priority - recruiting and retention.  Even if recruiting levels matched releases it is not enough as some of those recruits will not make it through the training system and some will only stick for the initial engagement.  Somehow the navy has to find a way to strike a balance between the two. I believe we are at a stage now where retention is just important as recruiting. We have to hold on to some of those looking at releasing for another 5 to 10 years to give the new recruits the time to learn from the old timers and to gain the experience.


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## Larkvall

Is one of the problems the fact that the Navy Reserves use very different equipment and thus drawing from this pool of people is limited?


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## CountDC

Larkvall said:
			
		

> Is one of the problems the fact that the Navy Reserves use very different equipment and thus drawing from this pool of people is limited?



not from what I have heard.  My understanding is that the reg f is taking the new guys from the reserves and that a fair number of the "retiring" reg f guys are going over to the reserves.

the new navy - enrol p res, portion trans to reg f, smaller portion do 25 to get pension, smaller portion trans back to p res.


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## Sailorwest

What seems to happen is the 'grass is always greener' effect. The people on the KIN class see big ships that don't go to sea that often while they are in and out of the harbour regularly and think it would be better to do the job over there.  Problem is that there is very little available in the NRD's to send to the ships. It takes the better part of a year to get someone in through the recruiting system and get them onto their first courses before they are even trade qualified to go to sea.  The economy is already starting to rebound so I don't know if there will be that many people actually knocking on the door anyway.


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## ltmaverick25

The only way to resolve the problem is to seriously address the burnout issue.  If you keep driving guys into the ground, eventually they, or their spouses are going to pull the plug and get out.  The CLS kept talking about how the army needs a year long break ( I realize he has changed his tune on this as of today but..) however, I think the Navy needs one as well.  Our manpower cannot produce what is being asked of it, not without burning out our most valuable people.


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## Stoker

CountDC said:
			
		

> not from what I have heard.  My understanding is that the reg f is taking the new guys from the reserves and that a fair number of the "retiring" reg f guys are going over to the reserves.
> 
> the new navy - enrol p res, portion trans to reg f, smaller portion do 25 to get pension, smaller portion trans back to p res.



The amount of people transferring to the regs have slowed quite a bit, certainly because most pers who have wanted to go have gone. The majority of pers transferring now are pers with one or two years in.
As for the guys with 25 plus years in, yes there are some who are joining and "double dipping". Unfortunately a lot of those want the jammy shore positions that don't involve sailing and are taking these billets away from pers who do a lot of sailing and deserve those billets.


----------



## Stoker

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> What seems to happen is the 'grass is always greener' effect. The people on the KIN class see big ships that don't go to sea that often while they are in and out of the harbour regularly and think it would be better to do the job over there.  Problem is that there is very little available in the NRD's to send to the ships. It takes the better part of a year to get someone in through the recruiting system and get them onto their first courses before they are even trade qualified to go to sea.  The economy is already starting to rebound so I don't know if there will be that many people actually knocking on the door anyway.



I really think its going to get worst before it gets better. The home units have the bare minimum and a lot of that corporate knowledge is getting out and retiring. This year OJT on this haven't produced that many completed packages and is disorganized to say the least. 
The good news is that class C for shore based and ship based positions are coming and will sweeten the pot a little and hopefully retain more pers.


----------



## Snakedoc

Hey Stoker, I might be a bit out of the loop on this but could you elaborate a bit on the shore based and ship based class C positions that are coming?  Thanks.


----------



## Stoker

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Hey Stoker, I might be a bit out of the loop on this but could you elaborate a bit on the shore based and ship based class C positions that are coming?  Thanks.



As it stands right now force protection, including the gate guard are getting class C. Sea training minor war vessels are in the process of getting it. Its expected that all shore based jobs, teaching, admin, OJT will be getting class C hopefully by the end of the year. This is in part a retention strategy and a move to declare and recognise that the reserves are either full time or part time.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Interesting.  Anyone heard if this move is being made on the Army side too?

I know there are (well...were...) alot of Class B/A positions in the ARE.  If the NavRes is going Cl C for those types of positions, it would seem to me that the PRes and Air Res should consider it as well.


----------



## Stoker

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Interesting.  Anyone heard if this move is being made on the Army side too?
> 
> I know there are (well...were...) alot of Class B/A positions in the ARE.  If the NavRes is going Cl C for those types of positions, it would seem to me that the PRes and Air Res should consider it as well.



Until a msg is actually released, I would like to see it to believe it. I have been talking to some pretty highly pers on this, I was surprised when I heard it. I would expect that this would be for every one, all elements. 
I personally think its about time. As it stands, if you get posted ashore, that's a lot of cash out of your pocket for the privilege of being ashore.


----------



## Sailorwest

Stoker said:
			
		

> As it stands right now force protection, including the gate guard are getting class C. Sea training minor war vessels are in the process of getting it. Its expected that all shore based jobs, teaching, admin, OJT will be getting class C hopefully by the end of the year. This is in part a retention strategy and a move to declare and recognise that the reserves are either full time or part time.


The odd part about the last comment here is that the NDA defines a person who is working full time in the CF as being Regular Force and a person working other than full time as being in the Reserve Force. Conceptually, this strategy is running in opposition to the definition in the NDA.


----------



## Stoker

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> The odd part about the last comment here is that the NDA defines a person who is working full time in the CF as being Regular Force and a person working other than full time as being in the Reserve Force. Conceptually, this strategy is running in opposition to the definition in the NDA.



Perhaps its time that the NDA is amended. Right now we really have 2 reserves, the full time guys and the part time guys, it didn't start out like that, but that's where we're at right now.


----------



## Sailorwest

Or perhaps those who want to work full time for the Navy should be in the regular force not the reserve force. What's happened is a blurring of this definition. Without getting hyper critical, why don't the people who seem to make a career of being in the navy just join the regular force?


----------



## Stoker

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> Or perhaps those who want to work full time for the Navy should be in the regular force not the reserve force. What's happened is a blurring of this definition. Without getting hyper critical, why don't the people who seem to make a career of being in the navy just join the regular force?



I think some people like being able to go full time and have the option to go back part time to do whatever. I know lots of full timers that have invested a lot into the reserves and have no intention of joining the regular forces and actually see it as a step back in a lot of ways. The regs are not the be all, end all like people think.


----------



## dapaterson

People on continuing full-time service are Reg F - that we've corrupted the Reserves to let some do that as well does not make it right.

What may be needed instead is sub-components of the Reg F, with a variety of posting restrictions or other conditions attached (that would impact pay).

Right now, we're playing games and refusing to admit that we have too little military for the tasks we've been assigned/taken on, so we cheat to make it work.


----------



## nick2k

The reason why the navy has such a hard time getting people to stay in is the fact that they still run the navy as they did 50 years ago. I was in for 5 years and I finally saw the light and joined the air force. While in the navy I was duty every 13 days. Washing, waxing, sweeping floors. Cleaning toilets, painting and answer phones just to name a few. The funny thing was I never got in **** for anything, plus I was a NET(T) or Radar Technician that was just the way the navy works. In the air force, I go to work, do what I was trained to do( Fix planes or helos) , and then go home. Much better quality of life. No stranger to work . Dont mind work 5 days or more straight no food or sleep. I want to work but not being the janitor im sorry.The navy spent all this money training me to do the job someone with a grade 2 education can do.


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## Neill McKay

nick2k said:
			
		

> The reason why the navy has such a hard time getting people to stay in is the fact that they still run the navy as they did 50 years ago. I was in for 5 years and I finally saw the light and joined the air force. While in the navy I was duty every 13 days. Washing, waxing, sweeping floors. Cleaning toilets, painting and answer phones just to name a few. The funny thing was I never got in **** for anything, plus I was a NET(T) or Radar Technician that was just the way the navy works. In the air force, I go to work, do what I was trained to do( Fix planes or helos) , and then go home. Much better quality of life. No stranger to work . Dont mind work 5 days or more straight no food or sleep. I want to work but not being the janitor im sorry.The navy spent all this money training me to do the job someone with a grade 2 education can do.



What do you see as an alternative for maintaining the ship?


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## NCRCrow

I agree with nick2k post. I see his frustration every day with new people when they join the ship and we make them do everything but their job. When they are not cleaning, we make them do redundant WHIMIS training and other BS.

To start to retain sailors we have to adjust our outdated thinking and maybe have cleaning stations 3 times a week for a half hour. In a two hour cleaning station , how much work gets done after the first 30 minutes.

I agree the ship must be maintained but a balance must be put in place to ensure work and maintenance is done but also tactful training either alongside or at sea.

I don't blame you for going to the AF, the Navy is not an easy go.


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## George Wallace

Question about Cleaning:

Why doesn't the Navy do like the Army and Air Force and hire civvie contractors to clean the heads, passageways, etc.?    >
    


Oh! Yea.  It is rather hard to get that cleaners van from Esquimalt to the worksite if the worksite is cruising the Red Sea, or Pearl, or Gulf of Yeman, or Bermuda, or ...........

 :


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## Ex-Dragoon

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I agree with nick2k post. I see his frustration every day with new people when they join the ship and we make them do everything but their job. When they are not cleaning, we make them do redundant WHIMIS training and other BS.
> 
> To start to retain sailors we have to adjust our outdated thinking and maybe have cleaning stations 3 times a week for a half hour. In a two hour cleaning station , how much work gets done after the first 30 minutes.
> 
> I agree the ship must be maintained but a balance must be put in place to ensure work and maintenance is done but also tactful training either alongside or at sea.
> 
> I don't blame you for going to the AF, the Navy is not an easy go.



Agree with all the above.



> Question about Cleaning:
> 
> Why doesn't the Navy do like the Army and Air Force and hire civvie contractors to clean the heads, passageways, etc.?    >
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! Yea.  It is rather hard to get that cleaners van from Esquimalt to the worksite if the worksite is cruising the Red Sea, or Pearl, or Gulf of Yeman, or Bermuda, or ...........


George, your missing the point on nicks post, he wants to do the job he was trained to do, not be a glorified cleaner which is what our junior guys tend to end up doing, day after day. It is at the point now where when they do get to do training their skill set has slipped significantly.


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## NCRCrow

At sea is at sea, and I think we have a good balance in that area.

The issue is not with cleaning stations specifically, but the management of our 8 hour day alongside. The Navy is (trying) improving the duty watch system and encourage PT. I have seen this trend and I like it and I applaud Command for implementing it. Ports are drastically improving as the CFB Norfolk VA is slowly disappearing and the ships are visiting some outstanding ports on the US Eastern seaboard. I can attest to Key West FLA as the best foreign port ever! 

we just need to balance training and BS and this will work. I can the mentality changing and I know the CMS is listening to us Sailors.


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## jollyjacktar

I attended the SCAN held in Halifax this past week.  There were around 450 people in attendance.  Granted a few were the partners of these folks, but not too many.  We are going to be in the hurt locker on this coast over the next couple of years as these folks take their exit.  They still need to so something on the retention issues.  For me, I would like to see the pension souped up somehow.  Maybe 2.5% a year vs the 2%, some bonus on re-signing ala the USN.  For me it is too late on the bonus, I am already on my IPS and getting the bone on leaving before 24 + a day but making the pension juicier would intice me to see the IPS to the end and maybe further.


----------



## November Charlie

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I attended the SCAN held in Halifax this past week.  There were around 450 people in attendance.  Granted a few were the partners of these folks, but not too many.  We are going to be in the hurt locker on this coast over the next couple of years as these folks take their exit.  They still need to so something on the retention issues.  For me, I would like to see the pension souped up somehow.  Maybe 2.5% a year vs the 2%, some bonus on re-signing ala the USN.  For me it is too late on the bonus, I am already on my IPS and getting the bone on leaving before 24 + a day but making the pension juicier would intice me to see the IPS to the end and maybe further.




We hurt already...unfortuantely its not hurting the right people....personally, I'd like to see it so bad that POs have to do their 2 hour cleaning stations because all the lower deckers have re-mustered to the airforce.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

November Charlie said:
			
		

> We hurt already...unfortuantely its not hurting the right people....personally, I'd like to see it so bad that POs have to do their 2 hour cleaning stations because all the lower deckers have re-mustered to the airforce.



And when you need things done Divisionally who is going to do that? "PO, did my paperwork go through for my advance promotion" "Sorry AB but I am here scrubbing the heads.." There is a reason why POs are not involved in cleaning stations. :


----------



## November Charlie

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> And when you need things done Divisionally who is going to do that? "PO, did my paperwork go through for my advance promotion" "Sorry AB but I am here scrubbing the heads.." There is a reason why POs are not involved in cleaning stations. :



Yes of course your right, I understand that we all have our jobs to do. And my comment wasn't actually meant as a shot against and PO's, I just wanted to make the point that the fleet is hurting real bad and it don't seem to be any relief for people such as myself doing a job by myself that was once done by 3 or 4 men. There are a lot of releases and there would be even more if the money wasn't so good. Why is that? The navy has gone wrong somewhere down the line.


----------



## Otis

Trust me, NC ... a lot of the PO's are no better off than the Jr Ranks ...

I currently have a friend on one of the ships ... PO1 with no departmental Chief, no PO2, no MS and short 1 LS out of 5 ... this PO is currently sailing doing all four Snr NCO jobs while trying to train the Jr personnel to do thier jobs AND complete thier secondary duties.

Everyone's feeling the brunt and until we get all of these new people in, trained and out to the fleet, it's not going to get better.


----------



## Halifax Tar

November Charlie said:
			
		

> We hurt already...unfortuantely its not hurting the right people....personally, I'd like to see it so bad that POs have to do their 2 hour cleaning stations because all the lower deckers have re-mustered to the airforce.



Lets not forget you don't get to PO with out doing cleaning stations at one time or another


----------



## Sub Standard

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Lets not forget you don't get to PO with out doing cleaning stations at one time or another



If you really want to see POs doing cleaning stations come down to subs where everyone does cleaning stations including the POs and Officers.


----------



## Snakedoc

Sub-normal said:
			
		

> If you really want to see POs doing cleaning stations come down to subs where everyone does cleaning stations including the POs and Officers.



You gotta love the Sub...Normal life! keke sorry, couldn't resist lol


----------



## willellis

Don't worry fellas, your staffing issues are over. I am on the way!  

But in all seriousness, I feel for you all. I have was working a provincial job for the last 2.5 years, and we were constantly understaffed. Not only is it a hit to the operation of the department, but moral and staff work ethic as well. I hope that more Canadians, both young and old, take advantage of the opportunities that the Canadian Forces, especially the Navy offer, or just decide to do their part for the country.


----------



## TRYHARD2001

Just to add to the discussion, you can expect a damn sight more sailors coming over in the next year as many of us grunts leave the Infantry and see what life is like on the sea. Are the staffing issues still as bad as they were a few years ago?


----------



## Sub_Guy

Sub-normal said:
			
		

> If you really want to see POs doing cleaning stations come down to subs where everyone does cleaning stations including the POs and Officers.



Also on the sub once something is clean you are DONE.  Unlike the skimmers who keep you at your station until the allotted time has expired. 

All those Army fellas who are looking to OT to the Navy, I will save you a few years and recommend skiping the Navy for the Air Force.  There is a reason why the Air Force has many former sailors kicking around.


----------



## CombatDoc

TRYHARD2001 said:
			
		

> Just to add to the discussion, you can expect a damn sight more sailors coming over in the next year as many of us grunts leave the Infantry and see what life is like on the sea. Are the staffing issues still as bad as they were a few years ago?


I think that the manning shortage is worse and forecast to continue getting worse with the aging/release of experienced sailors.  Good luck on your OT, choose wisely - most sailors that I know are away from home (on average) far more often than any soldiers that I know - although all-expense paid trips to the Arctic every summer have their allure. ;D


----------

