# Cadet Smoking



## Pte.Butt (14 Jan 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Just remember that once at Stand Easy:
> 
> 14. When standing easy, squad members may, with permission, move all but their feet and adjust clothing and equipment, but they shall not smoke or talk.




I always seem to get a kick out of the ''No smoking rule'' while formed up when I was in Cadets. From my understanding smoking in Cadets isn't allowed now, for many reasons (under age, being an organization for kids etc...) but they always stressed that rule. Never really made sense to me why the rule would exist   for Cadets, but in order for a rule to be made, someone had to give them a reason to make it!


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## davidk (14 Jan 2008)

I've actually seen the no smoking rule violated on occasion...I won't say where, but cigarettes, bearskins and red tunics don't mix...


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## yoman (14 Jan 2008)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> I always seem to get a kick out of the ''No smoking rule'' while formed up when I was in Cadets. From my understanding smoking in Cadets isn't allowed now, for many reasons (under age, being an organization for kids etc...) but they always stressed that rule. Never really made sense to me why the rule would exist   for Cadets, but in order for a rule to be made, someone had to give them a reason to make it!



Smoking is still allowed at certain CSTC's (IE: Bagotville). But this is getting off topic...


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## Nfld Sapper (14 Jan 2008)

yoman said:
			
		

> Smoking is still allowed at certain CSTC's (IE: Bagotville). But this is getting off topic...



Remember Pte. Butt my references are from THE CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL so somewhere someone lite up a smoke for it to be in there.

Now drop and give me 25  ushup:


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## Pte.Butt (14 Jan 2008)

yoman said:
			
		

> Smoking is still allowed at certain CSTC's (IE: Bagotville). But this is getting off topic...




I *HIGHLY* doubt that any CSTC would allow course or staff cadets smoke. The few courses I was in CFB Greenwood for I had Flt Commanders (Officers) who weren't even allowed to smoke near the complex, it is just policy. Smoking + Cadets = A No No. Now under age smoking in the military is a different ball game. It is allowed, I smoke, I am only 17 (well actually I quite trying to quite, as a new years resolution)


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## Pte.Butt (14 Jan 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Remember Pte. Butt my references are from THE CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL so somewhere someone lite up a smoke for it to be in there.
> 
> Now drop and give me 25  ushup:




It's funny you say that, I just filled in my fitness log sheet for the night  ;D


Edit: End of thread hi-jack


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## yoman (14 Jan 2008)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> I *HIGHLY* doubt that any CSTC would allow course or staff cadets smoke. The few courses I was in CFB Greenwood for I had Flt Commanders (Officers) who weren't even allowed to smoke near the complex, it is just policy. Smoking + Cadets = A No No. Now under age smoking in the military is a different ball game. It is allowed, I smoke, I am only 17 (well actually I quite trying to quite, as a new years resolution)



You can highly doubt all you want, I was on two courses there and I can tell you it DID happen. You are correct in saying that those smokers are not to be seen by other cadets, therefore they have their own little corner hidden from everybody else.


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## medaid (14 Jan 2008)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> It is allowed, I smoke, I am only 17 (well actually I quite trying to quite, as a new years resolution)



Don't mistake someone's lack of enforcement for a law to be deemed that it is condoned by the Forces. 

Under aged drinking and smoking is not ALLOWED, it is merely not enforced...


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## Niteshade (31 Mar 2008)

Back during my time in Cadets (88-93) Smoking was allowed in cadets. In fact at TACC (Trenton Air Cadet Camp), They had a smoke pit right next to the movie tent by the canteen.

It should not have been done though. But it happened. Much like the frat line getting stolen every year I was on course.

Nites


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## bms (11 Apr 2008)

Smoking is still allowed in Cadets.

 At NACSTC Connaught for instance, there is a square of string tied to poles in front of the canteen where Cadets may smoke. And it doesn't seem to be a big issue, Major General Petras(I think) was there to talk to us about our international exchanges(I went to Scotland). Infact, Connaught has a smoking policy for Cadets.


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## medaid (11 Apr 2008)

I really don't care if Cannaught has a smoking pit or Albert Head or Vernon. The FACT is purchasing and possession is illegal for those under the age of majority in their respectice provinces. Smoking underage is illegal along with drinking.


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## bms (11 Apr 2008)

I definitely agree with you. It's very much against what some of the program represents.

 I'm just pointing out that it does happen, and that in some places, it is taken to an extreme, especially since it is in the joining instructions of the camp(the National Army Cadet Summer Training Centre(NACSTC) no less).


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## GGHG_Cadet (11 Apr 2008)

Both Connaught and Blackdown allow cadets to smoke as long as they have a waiver filled out by their parents, they must then prevent this waiver to their staff in order to be given a smoking chit. Only those with smoking chits are allowed to smoke in the designated smoking area, those without are supposed to be disciplined accordingly.


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## X Royal (12 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> I really don't care if Cannaught has a smoking pit or Albert Head or Vernon. The FACT is purchasing and possession is illegal for those under the age of majority in their respectice provinces. Smoking underage is illegal along with drinking.



MedTech: The above statement is not correct at least as far as Ontario is concerned. It is illegal to sell or supply tobacco to someone under 19 but it is not illegal for them to have it. :

Taken from: http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/pub/tobacco/act.html

*TOBACCO : The Tobacco Control Act — What it's all About	*

Ontario's Tobacco Control Act sets rules about selling and smoking tobacco. Its purpose is to reduce smoking, especially among young people. It also limits people's exposure to second-hand smoke in public places. There are other municipal, provincial and federal laws on tobacco.

There are other municipal, provincial and federal laws on tobacco.

*Tobacco*

*AGE*

You cannot sell or supply tobacco to anyone under 19 years of age (the age under federal law is 18).

_It is not illegal for someone under 19 to have tobacco_. But the person who sold or gave it to them has broken the law.


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## rwgill (12 Apr 2008)

National Cadet Smoking Policy - CATO 13-22
http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/1322_b.pdf


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## Riobeard (16 Apr 2008)

News Flash......Hold on to your butts folks because I have it on good authority that Connaught will be a smoke free camp this summer.  No one, including officers, Civilian instructors, NCM's, staff cadets or candidates on courses will be allowed to smoke within the confines of the camp.


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## George Wallace (16 Apr 2008)

Riobeard said:
			
		

> News Flash......Hold on to your butts folks because I have it on good authority that Connaught will be a smoke free camp this summer.  No one, including officers, Civilian instructors, NCM's, staff cadets or candidates on courses will be allowed to smoke within the confines of the camp.


Interesting.  How many Cadets would be LEGAL to purchase smokes to begin with?


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## Burrows (16 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting.  How many Cadets would be LEGAL to purchase smokes to begin with?


Ontario is a screwed up place and allows minors to smoke legally and then punishes the vendor if they are caught selling to minors.


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## armyvern (16 Apr 2008)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Ontario is a screwed up place and allows minors to smoke legally and then punishes the vendor if they are caught selling to minors.



NB is the same way.

The stores get shit if they get caught selling them to them, as does any adult who gives them smokes. That's illegal (because those stores and people are "adults").

But the underage kids posessing smokes is not illegal, nor is it illegal for them to actually smoke. _That's_ only "strongly discouraged".


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## midgetcop (19 Apr 2008)

I'd be curious if any provinces actually *do* have it in the law books.


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## NCRCrow (19 Apr 2008)

Interesting question as we are having Cadets onboard for the summer and I am the Liaison Officer.

Will they be allowed to smoke? I would hope the answer is no!

Forum? any thoughts


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## Kat Stevens (19 Apr 2008)

Probably not, as kids are not required to take responsibility for their own actions.  Kids a smoker?  Daddy never played catch in the yard.  Daughter's a crack head?  Mommy never hugged her enough.   In the end, it really is the parents fault, that'll teach em for having kids.






			
				the_midge said:
			
		

> I'd be curious if any provinces actually *do* have it in the law books.


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2008)

Yeah well,

My parents did none of the crap below. They were awesome parents. 

I smoked (still do) as a kid. Camp Argonaut picture book of 1982 actually has a pic of me with a smoke hanging out of my mouth --- I was PERI Staff then.

Go figure. I was young. My parents and their parenting skills had zilch to do with it. They sure as heck were not privvy to the fact that I smoked.

Do I condone cadets smoking now? No. Do you have any legal authority to tell them they can't have a smoke (provided they want to have one in a place where smoking is allowed and not disallowed by legislation etc)? No. Would I make different choices now than I did then? Yes.

It's not illegal for them to posess them. It's not illegal for them to smoke them. That's the law. The best you can do is discourage it, and educate them as to it's dangers and risks, and make it very difficult for them to find an area where smoking is designated. And, be careful at that --- doing that continuously (and this continuous anti-smoking chant given daily, sometimes more often than once -- usually comes from "reformed smokers" too, who can be quite righteous & condescending from my experience) can be taken to be harassment exactly because whether you agree with them smoking, or not, it's a legal activity for them to undertake. The law says so. In the end, it's all you can do --- because they get to make the choice still vice having the government make it for them.

Unless and until the law changes ... it's all just "strongly discouraged".


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## NCRCrow (19 Apr 2008)

That must have a sight to see the "PERI" Staff with a smoke hanging out!

AV: Any thoughts to my post about Cadets smoking onboard?


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2008)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> That must have a sight to see the "PERI" Staff with a smoke hanging out!
> 
> AV: Any thoughts to my post about Cadets smoking onboard?



Different times then too. The pic was taken just prior to my giving them (B Coy - CLI Course) a warm up and taking them for a Coy run through the lovely Burton Orchards/Lindsey Valley. 

Your question is interesting. 

You can't sell them smokes onboard. You can't give them smokes on board. That's illegal.

But, if they have smokes with them when they arrive -- their possession of them is entirely legal, as is their smoking of them. As far as I am aware, there is *no* law that says they need their parents permission to smoke, although many schools etc are putting these little caveats in place. Not like most youth have enough funds to back up a legal complaint/challenge to little infringements such as that on their legal right to smoke. So entities get away with making those caveats. We justify that by calling it "discouragement from smoking". I could be wrong on this point though. But, if they have smokes with them when they get there, AND have a parental permission slip as CATOs state --- then I don't think one could do a damn thing to stop them, or to discourage them from exercising their right to smoke in a designated area. You could only "strongly discourage it".

I'd say that legally, if you have a designated smoking area on board -- and a cadet sparked up a smoke while there, he'd have done absolutely nothing wrong ... and there would be no legal punishment etc that could be imposed.

I suppose though, you could put inforce a "no cadets in the designated smoking area policy", but then a cadet on his break would still be well within his legal rights to say: "I smoke, it's not illegal, I'm on my break, I want one --- please point me to the area where I am allowed to have one; or are you going to deny me my legal right to have one?" Techniclly, you'd then give him the usual "it's not good for you business" ... but legally, you couldn't stop him from lighting one in that designated smoking area if he wanted to. Just as you couldn't stop an adult from doing so, because it is legal for both the adult and the cadet to posess them ... and to smoke them.

Not pretty, but fact.

Now, all that said --- do I agree with kids smoking? No. If I could turn back the clocks -- I would. 

If we don't want kids to smoke though, then the government has to get off it's ass and make it illegal for them to posess them, and to smoke them. Why hasn't that already been done? I highly suspect it's because of the sheer volume of tax dollars coming in that they'd lose out on. That's my suspicion precisely because --- they've already made it illegal for underage kids to posess or drink alcohol ... what the hell is the holdup with smokes?


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## NCRCrow (19 Apr 2008)

Thank you for your insightful response-->AV. 

I am going to call AJAG on Monday and see what there stance on the issue is.

Personally, I am a non-smoker and would not like to see Cadets smoking. (as I have a tweenaged daughter) 

But that's my opinion only.

I will provide an update based on the results I get.

Crow


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## Kat Stevens (19 Apr 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Probably not, as kids are not required to take responsibility for their own actions.  Kids a smoker?  Daddy never played catch in the yard.  Daughter's a crack head?  Mommy never hugged her enough.   In the end, it really is the parents fault, that'll teach em for having kids.




I guess to make it super obvious that I was being facetious, here ya go,      : :   enjoy the rest of your Saturday


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I guess to make it super obvious that I was being facetious, here ya go,      : :   enjoy the rest of your Saturday



Uhhmm, I knew that. 

That's exactly why I posted that my parents had SFA to do with my smoking and that it was *my * choice/mistake. It does get tiring watching people blame their habits/problems on other people.

You enjoy your Saturday too.


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## garb811 (19 Apr 2008)

Not all governments have ducked the issue.  In Alberta, it is an offence for anyone under the age of 18 to possess, smoke or consume in any other manner, a tobacco product, unless they are participating in an aboriginal spiritual ceremony, a sales clerk engaged in the act of selling tobacco or they are acting in the capacity of assisting an inspector.  See Prevention of Youth Tobacco Use Act.


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Not all governments have ducked the issue.  In Alberta, it is an offence for anyone under the age of 18 to possess, smoke or consume in any other manner, a tobacco product, unless they are participating in an aboriginal spiritual ceremony, a sales clerk engaged in the act of selling tobacco or they are acting in the capacity of assisting an inspector.  See Prevention of Youth Tobacco Use Act.



Yay!!


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## Kat Stevens (19 Apr 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Not all governments have ducked the issue.  In Alberta, it is an offence for anyone under the age of 18 to possess, smoke or consume in any other manner, a tobacco product, unless they are participating in an aboriginal spiritual ceremony, a sales clerk engaged in the act of selling tobacco or they are acting in the capacity of assisting an inspector.  See Prevention of Youth Tobacco Use Act.



Then someone needs to take a spin past the local high school here.


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Then someone needs to take a spin past the local high school here.



Local High Schools.

The one here banned all smoking on school district property. So now, all the kids just walk accross the street onto the sidewalks and smoke in everyone else's front yards (well on their sidewalks anyway).

The town even came along and threw up a couple of gazebos, with garbage cans to accomodate them. I guess, that's better than having all their trash and butts littered along the sidewalks and everyone else's front lawns.

 :-\


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## garb811 (20 Apr 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Then someone needs to take a spin past the local high school here.


Yeah, unfortunately just because a law exists doesn't mean it's vigorously enforced, particularly when the fine is small and the inspectors are more interested in the bigger fish.


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## bwatch (16 Nov 2008)

RMC_Cadet said:
			
		

> Both Connaught and Blackdown allow cadets to smoke as long as they have a waiver filled out by their parents, they must then prevent this waiver to their staff in order to be given a smoking chit. Only those with smoking chits are allowed to smoke in the designated smoking area, those without are supposed to be disciplined accordingly.



Now what parent would give a note saying it was OK to let their Son smoke.


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## Thompson_JM (16 Nov 2008)

bwatch said:
			
		

> Now what parent would give a note saying it was OK to let their Son smoke.



the same ones who send their kid to cadets as a source of "free baby sitting" i'll wager.... 

aka, not very good ones...


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## danchapps (16 Nov 2008)

When I was at TACC, or was it TACSTC, whatever the name was then, there was a smokers square. You needed permission to smoke in it, I had none, yet I was in there anyway. Also, to supplement my income I would sell smokes to other cadets. I made a personal record that camp, $5 for a single smoke, and that was 1995 prices. In the stores then you could get a pack for $3.25! I for one wouldn't stop a cadet from smoking, but I wouldn't encourage it. They'd get the same speech, but only once, and that would be it.


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## fire_guy686 (16 Nov 2008)

bwatch said:
			
		

> Now what parent would give a note saying it was OK to let their Son smoke.



Does it really surprise you that parents would let their kids smoke?? I know parents who BUY their kids smokes for them. It's sad.


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## gwp (16 Nov 2008)

This is not an issue in most provinces.  The program must follow the regulations as they apply in the various jurisdictions.   

The national policy is outlined in CATO 13-22

http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/1322_b.pdf

Here is how it applies in B.C. 

http://www.cadets.net/pac/news-nouvelles/pdf/backgrounders05/BGtobacco.pdf


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## Jabrwock (17 Nov 2008)

The policy is mostly a recognition of reality. Possession in most provinces is not illegal, it's the sale that is. So the policy merely encourages "discouragement" except in areas where there is no conflict (such as banning smoking on cadet/gov facilities). In those cases it's not the possession that's forbidden, but the lighting up.

Back when I did staff in Vernon in '96, our company CO signed the "no smoking allowed" section of the ID for all the cadets, and "smoking allowed" for all the staff, regardless of whether they had letters from parents.


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## BinRat55 (19 Nov 2008)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> When I was at TACC, or was it TACSTC, whatever the name was then, there was a smokers square. You needed permission to smoke in it, I had none, yet I was in there anyway. Also, to supplement my income I would sell smokes to other cadets. I made a personal record that camp, $5 for a single smoke, and that was 1995 prices. In the stores then you could get a pack for $3.25!  I for one wouldn't stop a cadet from smoking, but I wouldn't encourage it. They'd get the same speech, but only once, and that would be it.



A kid smoker AND profiteering... no wonder you became a Supply Tech. Learning anything in the circus these days?  :warstory:


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## danchapps (19 Nov 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Learning anything in the circus these days?  :warstory:



Yes, that I love my job and the system (when it's in my favor). I also learned that smokers get more breaks at work, but I don't smoke anymore, so I lose there. Funny thing though, I worked in supply when I was in cadets, and now I'm a Bin Rat in the real world, creepy eh.


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## PMedMoe (19 Nov 2008)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I also learned that smokers get take more breaks at work



Non-smokers can take a break as often as smokers do.


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## bwatch (19 Nov 2008)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> Yes, that I love my job and the system (when it's in my favor). I also learned that smokers get more breaks at work, but I don't smoke anymore, so I lose there. Funny thing though, I worked in supply when I was in cadets, and now I'm a Bin Rat in the real world, creepy eh.



I need a pair of Combat Boots and if you can, dig me up a set of DND plates.


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## fire_guy686 (19 Nov 2008)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I also learned that smokers get more breaks at work, but I don't smoke anymore, so I lose there.



I don't smoke anymore either, but if everyone who smokes is going out, I'm taking a break too.


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## danchapps (21 Nov 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Non-smokers can take a break as often as smokers do.



I usually keep working, force of habit.



			
				bwatch said:
			
		

> I need a pair of Combat Boots and if you can, dig me up a set of DND plates.



I don't know about that one. Getting a DND plate, not my Department, sorry.


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## R. Jorgensen (21 Nov 2008)

bms said:
			
		

> Smoking is still allowed in Cadets.
> 
> At NACSTC Connaught for instance, there is a square of string tied to poles in front of the canteen where Cadets may smoke. And it doesn't seem to be a big issue, Major General Petras(I think) was there to talk to us about our international exchanges(I went to Scotland). Infact, Connaught has a smoking policy for Cadets.



Well, if I am correct the "NO SMOKING" policy is a Canada-wide policy that is obviously poorly enforced if cadets (whether staff or course cadet - regardless) are "permitted" to smoke in certain locations - Vernon has VERY strict enforcement of the policy.

EDIT: Oh, I read the PDF... never mind then.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Nov 2008)

This thread has really gone on way too long. :


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## HOPEFULSOLDIER (6 Dec 2008)

hey AV about what you said about they cant d anything about it if it is a smoking area... when i was in vernon in 07 i was RTU'd for smoking in the smoking area where the officers smoked and that went on my record as a demerit and prevented m from passing my CLI course which intern prevented me from getting promoted and then i was asked not to return after the summer so i couldnt finish my last two years and get my 5 year cadet servic medal would i have a legal case if i wanted to take the time ormoney to do something about it....



25 push ups private    ushup: :cdnsalute:


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## Pelorus (6 Dec 2008)

Legal action?  For something that happened in cadets?  ???


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Dec 2008)

Enough.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff


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