# T-Flash or Arty Sim...



## chrisf (20 Apr 2004)

Might sound like an odd question, but does anyone have a picture of a T-Flash or an Arty Sim, prior to firing, that they could post?


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## mattoigta (20 Apr 2004)

this is the best i can do

 http://www.army.dnd.ca/Essex_Kent_Scottish_Regt/EKScots/scrapbook/images/QL2_tflash.jpg


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## chk2fung (20 Apr 2004)

they‘re jsut like firecrackers that can be thrown,I don‘t have a picture but they‘re not big.  but try not to get in the way of them.  on Basic our Captain threw them into our bivuoac at around 3 am and it landed at teh door of the biggest guy of our platoon and it threw him a few feet.


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## chrisf (20 Apr 2004)

I‘m just curious, as to this point in my career, I‘ve managed to avoid having any thrown at or near me.

Are they like a steel tube with a plastic cap on one end?


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## mattoigta (20 Apr 2004)

nah it‘s made of cardboard type material, with a match stick type mechanism to set it off


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## stukirkpatrick (20 Apr 2004)

I also missed out on the magicalness of T-flashes because of the fire index during the summer   

However, since I‘ve thrown a few hand grenades, its gotta be easier    

Is the fuze the same as a grenade, or is it longer?


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## chrisf (20 Apr 2004)

Ok, then any idea what these are?

 http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Weapons/Unknown_01.jpg


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## stukirkpatrick (20 Apr 2004)

those look a bit like para flares - somebody confirm?


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## Michael OLeary (20 Apr 2004)

Definitely not the salvage from thunderflashes (which are cardboard tubes) or Arty Simulators (body is also a cardboard tube). The ‘old‘ paraflares had an aluminum body with threaded ends and shallow plastic caps (they wouldn‘t rust like that) and the newer paraflares have plastic bodies.

Can you give us an approximate size, and the location, it may help someone determine what they might be.


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## casey916 (20 Apr 2004)

Those in that picture I don‘t think are Canadian, at the infantry school, we use every bit of pyro you can think of, and I have never seen those before, I think they are American actually.  T-flashes are cardboard tubes with a bit of a firecracker on them, the fuze is basically the same as a hand grenade, hence the reason they are called training grenades.  Arty Sims are steel cans with a plastic cap on the top and something that looks like a handle on the side, which is actually the fuze that you pull to ignite the charge.  The delay on those is about 12 seconds or so.  

As for the comment about having the "biggest guy in our platoon thrown a couple of feet" I doubt that, I have had t-flashes land beside me, obviously I have rolled over to get away, but have never been thrown a few feet.  And if it was an arty sim, I doubt he walked away, and of course it would have been a training accident and what not.  Have you ever seen the pyro demo where they set a helmet on top of an arty sim?


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## chrisf (20 Apr 2004)

They were found at an abandoned Pine Tree site in in Newfoundland. While the site was abandoned in the 60s, I know one or two of the local militia units have used the site for training since.

In one room, they were all over the floor   http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Weapons/Unknown_02.jpg   and they were also scattered occasionally throughout the building.

The items in question are about a foot long, the tubes are steel, the red/black parts are a cone shaped plastic cap. I don‘t recall any threads on the tubes.

There was also a second variety of whatever they are found on site, the tub is the same size, but instead of the 2 inch long red or black plastic cap, they have 6 inch long white handle sort of thing...   http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Weapons/Unknown_03.jpg  

There were also a number of caps that looked like they may have snapped in or screwed into the plastic caps on the metal tubes, as well as a number of small wire loops with a red bead attached which looked like they may have been some sort of pull for an ignitor.

There were also a number of much larger red plastic circles, maybe 3 inches across, and maybe 1/8th of an inch thick, looked like they may have been covering for a packing tube of some sort?


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## Tpr.Orange (20 Apr 2004)

they look like the reminents of the flares... The length is right accept the newer para flares dont have as much of a plastic tip at the base. 

That would be my best guess


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## chrisf (20 Apr 2004)

After looking more closely at the pictures, I noticed somthing I hadn‘t noticed on site (Must work on my powers of observation, though I‘m usually pretty good).

There‘s minor melting to some of the plastic pieces, so very likely a flare or illumination of some type.

There‘s also at least one other varient, very similar to the red and black ones, only with a slightly different cap, that looks a lot like some civilian flares I‘ve seen, but I‘ve never actually handled them, so I don‘t know if the body would be steel or card-board.

Might have all been civilian flares, but there‘s so many of them on site, and I know the military has used the site for training... on the other hand, we [military] generally clean up our trash.


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## homerjsimpson (20 Apr 2004)

Post a high res pic


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## DogOfWar (21 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by 1rnbrcpl:
> [qb]
> 
> As for the comment about having the "biggest guy in our platoon thrown a couple of feet" I doubt that, I have had t-flashes land beside me, obviously I have rolled over to get away, but have never been thrown a few feet.   [/qb]


Is a flash bang the same as a thunder flash? If it is I have seen a man tossed by a flash bang. Rolled right under his legs on a "breach and clear" exercise and almost tossed him off a balcony.


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## jbeach95 (21 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by The WetGrunt:
> [qb] Is a flash bang the same as a thunder flash? [/qb]


They are not the same. Flash bangs are used to clear rooms by disorienting the occupants with a flash, bang, and concussion. Thunder flashes are used for training only, taking the role of grenades. They do not have a visible flash like flash bangs do, and the concussion is considerably less.


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## DogOfWar (21 Apr 2004)

ahh. disregard last transmission.


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Apr 2004)

they appear to be road flares or hand flares for boaters. perhaps someone was disposing of old flares and wanted to play. Marine distress flares have a shelf life of 4 years.


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## Sh0rtbUs (21 Apr 2004)

I havent seen a helmet get blown up by an arty sim, but I‘ve seen an ammo box get tossed by one. Thing was warped into a perfect half circle, and flew at least 60 ft into the air


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## 1feral1 (21 Apr 2004)

I sure remember both the T-flash and the arty sim. Here in Australa, they have pyro too, but its pathetic compaired to the ole arty sim.

Here a t flash is called a wizz bag, and its  about 1/10th of a t flash. As for arty sims, they just whistle here, and thats all. No flash and bang. 

However they do have a good variety of simulators on the BESS (Battlefield Effects Simulation System) a purpose built electrically fired multi function system. 

We have have a thing which is called a SPAL, like a mini-mortar electrically fired, and disposable. Out comes a platic bomb filled with MOGAS, and about 10 metres in the air it explodes. Nice and wet. One can hook mup a host of sims such as mortar, arty, small arms fire burst, and single shot, etc.

Last Sep/Oct I went on a DMEO/BES/BESS course at the old School of Military Engineering, Steel Barracks, Assault Pioneer Section, which strangly falls under the School of Infantry now.  It was a **** good course, as the last time I had done a similar course was back in 1991.

Also Detcord, CE primers and 600g slabs of TNT are also used in BES (Battlefield Effects Simulation) which is different from BESS. BES is very effective, and realistic. 

The CF have used similar if I remember right. All BES is never electrically fired, but the use of M700, detcord and generic non-electric blasting caps are used.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Tpr.Orange (21 Apr 2004)

Ive seen the old skool helmets vs. the arty sims....

and lemme tell you better toss this thing far away from people cause it took a nice sized chunk outta the helmet


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## Cpl. Williamson (21 Apr 2004)

A Nice way To simulate A 50. Cal is a Length of Detcord Tied into Several Reef Knots And just keep Branching off Knots as The ROF Dictates

But Back on topic.. Past summer in aldershot we Had a Girl Toss an Arty Sim underhand and Oddly Enough it Went Up instead of out     

And Landed at The RSO‘s Feet   :warstory:  

WO Sharpe Was not Pleased


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## Spr.Earl (21 Apr 2004)

Flash bang is a nick name for a concussion grenade.
When it goes off there is a large flash and quite a concussion.Used in hostage situations to concuss and disorientate the foe.

Thunder flash‘s are a big fire cracker and can remove fingers,cause sever burns.Always throw away from Troops.

Arty Sims are made of cardboard not mettle as some one posted,the explosive charge is quite large and you could lose a hand,eyes,hearing etc.Always throw away a fare distance from Troops as rocks,sticks etc may become flying shrapnel from the explosion!!!!!!!

NEVER PICK UP DUDS!!!AS THEY CAN STILL GO OFF!!
NEVER TRY TO RE USE A DUD!!!
Both of the ABOVE ACTIONS ARE A CHARGEABLE OFFENCE!
ONLY QUALIFIED RANGE SAFETY OR EOD PERS. ARE ALLOWED TO DEAL WITH DUD PYRO!!


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## Spr.Earl (21 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Spr. WIlliamson:
> [qb] A Nice way To simulate A 50. Cal is a Length of Detcord Tied into Several Reef Knots And just keep Branching off Knots as The ROF Dictates
> 
> But Back on topic.. Past summer in aldershot we Had a Girl Toss an Arty Sim underhand and Oddly Enough it Went Up instead of out
> ...


LOL I bet he lost a few pounds!!
How is Sharpie?
Known him for a few years.


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## Cpl. Williamson (21 Apr 2004)

Amen to That Spr. Earl

And WO Sharpe is good Last time I Seen him was As RSO on our QL3 Hes a Very Wise man He told me That C4 wasnt Marshmellow Fluff..

If only He was 5 Minutes Faster


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## Marauder (22 Apr 2004)

And remember troops, don‘t be THAT guy that thinks it is funny to cook off a t-flash and then throw it at buddy‘s feet... There‘s still some 4 RCR chicken ****** that I want to find and have words with some day...

To add to what Sapper Earl said, NEVER EVER EVER PHUCK WITH UXOS or unknown pyro. BAD JUJU!!!

I‘m sure more than one person here heard about buddy who had his **** all phucked up when he accidentally booted an unexploded 40mm round while clearing ranges for Stalwart Guardian last summer... a guy from my Regiment was the inital first aider, and he said it was not in any way pretty or fun to help buddy.


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## Spr.Earl (22 Apr 2004)

To busy reading the site!   
Back to the subject they look like and from what you have posted could be Marine Emergency Flares or Smoke Distress Signals.

DON‘T PICK THEM UP!!!

They could explode or ignite!

Is this place owned by DND?
If so inform the nearest EOD Unit and they will go out and deal with them.If not inform the Local Police and they will take it from there.

  :warstory:  My Cousin is a Queens Cowboy here in B.C. and he got posted to a local Island and we were just chatting what he finds on the beach and he found a flare thats dropped by the C.F. at night for search and rescuse so I told him the ins and outs about them.

  It turned out they had over 20 of them in a shed out back of the Office so I told him to get a hold of Comox,the boys came down and took care of them.

Old flares are dangerous no matter how big they are!!


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## Pikache (22 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Marauder:
> [qb]
> To add to what Sapper Earl said, NEVER EVER EVER PHUCK WITH UXOS or unknown pyro. BAD JUJU!!!
> 
> I‘m sure more than one person here heard about buddy who had his **** all phucked up when he accidentally booted an unexploded 40mm round while clearing ranges for Stalwart Guardian last summer... a guy from my Regiment was the inital first aider, and he said it was not in any way pretty or fun to help buddy. [/qb]


Actually, it‘s a troop and a warrant who got hit hard. Third guy was lucky to not get any.

And just to get that into your heads;

NEVER, EVER, PICK UP UXOs.

If you see anything that looks suspicious on the ground, don‘t pick it up or kick it or what not. Tell your section commander or 2i/c about it and ensure that all your section buddies know about it. (that‘s why there is a hand signal for pointing things out)


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## Spr.Earl (22 Apr 2004)

Thank‘s Maurauder,Fusilier.   
If you see other posts like this please,please!!
Inform them of the DANGERS!! of UXO‘S,DuD PYRO ETC.!!
Also that they can go to goal for picking up UXO‘S,altering Ammo,Pyro etc from it‘s intended use!!

Yes I‘m trained and in my training have ssen the film‘s and they are not PRETTY of a what is supposed to be a human body.


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## 1feral1 (22 Apr 2004)

Yes there has been many unnecessary injuries and deaths do to handling UXO of HE HEAT ordnance and sim natures.

Recently at Singleton, some Diggers found a 66mm HEAT rocket from an M72A6. It rsted on the dash of the Land Rover, and they made it as far as Rge Con, when the driver got out and slammed the door, the rocket blew up, with 2 or 3 blokes in the 110. Lucky no one was killed, but there were some serious injuries.

I too remember when a WO ( who shall remain nameless) RCA type, after working to clear the range found a 84mm HEAT UXO, and chucked into the back of the old 1974 Ptrn jeeps, and made it back to the shacks. For over a week, he used that UXO as a door stop, till someone finally noticed it was not blue, but was black with a bit of red writing on it.... That was one red faced WO!

Another time in regina in about 1962, the RRR had a recruitng display set up in the local fairgrounds.

They did a demo on the old m20A1 3.5in rocket launcher.

Little did they know the rocket indeed was blue, but the engine was OD. Infact they had loadwed a TPT, and it was live. The launcher fired, One Asian bloke who was looking down the muzzle was killed instantly, and others in the BBDA were injured.

The rocket went thru two walls, then penetrated another bldg, and wedged itself in a fridge.

How a TPT or ‘sand bomb‘ as they were know ever got mixed up with dummy ammo, I dont know, but I assure you there would have been a big investigation even by 1960s standards.

I too remember too when back sometime in the mid 70s, during a grenade lecture a group of RCACC cadets were killed when a supposedly dummy grenade went off during a lesson indoors. 

Wierd as it seems the person holding the frag, lost his arm, and other in the circle were killed, but most survived.

I do not know what type of grenade it was, but back at my militia unit in the mid 70‘s there was heaps of N0.36 ‘mills bombs‘ in abundance, painted as dummy.

Goes to show you that complaicantcy kills.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Meridian (27 Apr 2004)

I remember the pyro demo on basic.. out in Farnham....   very cool demo.. and our Sgt (An arty man) loved using the arty sims....

we had the same "wakeup" call for the bugout of the biv at 3am with arty sims (outside of the biv) and tflashes all over the woods...  I doubt it wouldve thrown someone.. maybe out of startlement though.


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## CH1 (20 Jan 2005)

Can't tell clearly but they almost look like early 70's trip flares, the description helps some but still clear as mud.


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## CH1 (20 Jan 2005)

The episode in 1970 was with DP grenades in Minto Armoury When some nameless Cpl's stuffed the primer wells with toy pistol caps.  Noise & smoke were like real fuses.  The injuries were caused from people going over the rail onto the Parade Square.  If you know Minto that is not a small feat.  In fact if I remember right it was the pilot SSEP program.  I was an instructor there at the time.


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## BetterThanTheBest (22 Jan 2005)

No. They're totally different. Flashbangs are used to stun the enemy before clearing a room or whatever. A T-flash is used as a replacement for grenades on blank fire exercises. They do not have a bright flash or anything. They're not even very loud.


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## AmmoTech90 (22 Jan 2005)

CH1,

If you're refering to the Grenade incident that Wes is talking about in the 70's they're not the same thing.  His version is accurate, it involved cadets, fatalities and a misidentified/unverified fragementation grenade.  Thats why there are annual inspections of all dummy and display ammunition.

As far as flashbangs go, flashbangs are to arty sims as arty sims are to T-flashes, only sometimes serveral times over.  I have seen a member in the prone position get picked up and tossed a couple of feet by an arty sim, it landed right next to him and I think the only reason he wasn't more seriously injured was he rolled on his side to see why his section commander was yelling at him to move and his C2 mag bandoleer took the blast, so yeah, an arty sim can move someone.

Just remember, on the range blue *doesn't* always mean inert, it means practice.  There are practice rounds out there with substantial HE charges in them for spotting.  Enough HE to rip apart 1/2" steel bodies so its more than enough to ruin your day.

Edit: Corrected what Aesop picked up


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## aesop081 (22 Jan 2005)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> ..........Just remember, on the range blue always mean inert, it means practice.



I realy hope you mean "before it is actualy fired" because i'm sure you know that stuff thats been in the ground for a while isn't always safe because its blue !


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## Jinxed (11 Aug 2006)

You know I'm actually curious, on the topic of T-Flashes, did anyone ever "dive" on one, either out of stupidity, reckless heroism, or other reasons?


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## Jinxed (11 Aug 2006)

And when I said did anyone ever dive on one, I didn't mean anyone here (hopefully).  Meaning if anyone ever heard of it happening.  Morbid curiosity, and no I'm not going to try it myself and tell you all what happened.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Aug 2006)

That would be outright stupidity.  You could kick a T flash far enough to make it relatively harmless.  Blowing a hole in yourself on purpose would be the epitome of shitheadery.


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## Michael OLeary (11 Aug 2006)

Jinxed said:
			
		

> You know I'm actually curious, on the topic of T-Flashes, did anyone ever "dive" on one, either out of stupidity, reckless heroism, or other reasons?



Let's hope not.  Thundeflashes have a small powder charge in them which is most safely left to explode in an open area.  They are more dangerous in confined spaces firstly because of the overpressure the blast will cause, and the small burning fragments of cardboard and other materials holding the charge inside the tube that will be released.  In a very confined space, like between the ground and a body, it would have enough power to cause damage to clothes and probably body, enough to ruin your day and likely require medical treatment.  These training devices are NOT toys, and are NOT to be handled casually or tossed about without due concern for the safety of others in the area.


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Aug 2006)

Never get caught in a small concrete room approx. 10'x10'x4' with a whistling arty sim at the entrance, you will regret it.


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## Thompson_JM (12 Aug 2006)

ouch.. that must have been quite the Bang....

heck even when im in open field if its within 20m I cover my ears if possible.... those arty-sims put out quite the racket!


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## kkwd (12 Aug 2006)

The "Grenades and Pyro" pam is located here http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/b-gl-385/007/PT-001/B-GL-385-007-PT-001.pdf
All the info you would ever want to know on the subject. A good nostalgic read as well.


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## George Wallace (12 Aug 2006)

Jinxed said:
			
		

> You know I'm actually curious, on the topic of T-Flashes, did anyone ever "dive" on one, either out of stupidity, reckless heroism, or other reasons?



First off:  This is a stupid post and should never have been posted.

Why:  This is a serious matter, and that action would have killed the person who did so.  It would have been a "Darwin Awards" Article.

T-Flashes and Arty Sims can kill, especially in confined spaces, as has been mentioned before.  Read the whole thread before commenting further.

It is because of stupid questions like this that we used to do Pyro Demonstrations to all Students before ever issuing them any pyrotechnics.  When we demonstrated the effects of these items on inanimate objects like helmets and 45 gallon drums, the effects were indelibly burnt into the candidates minds.  If you are asking these questions now, then you have had poor instruction.  A sad thing to say about our Training System.


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## GO!!! (12 Aug 2006)

In response to the people here claiming that training pyro can "throw people around" with powerful explosions, I call BS.

T-flashes are noisy when used indoors, and can kick dirt and stones around, but cannot "throw someone". You can buy firecrackers louder.

Arty sims can move people - but it is usually because they are trying to get away! I've had one explode at my feet and right next to me while lying down, it burned my jacket and gave me a bit of a concussion effect, but nothing more.


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## George Wallace (12 Aug 2006)

So GO!! would you really jump on one and play the movie hero to save your friends?


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## Kat Stevens (12 Aug 2006)

A blast, any blast, contained, is a blast multiplied.  If you were to flop down on a T flash, you give the blast wave only one route of egress...through your soft tissue.


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## GO!!! (13 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So GO!! would you really jump on one and play the movie hero to save your friends?



No, absolutely not. We have OCdts on OJT for those sorts of important tasks.  ;D


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## Shamrock (13 Aug 2006)

Waste of pyro when a well sharpened KFS can simulate the effects.

Fun to say before you light one at night... "Don't look into the whistle."

Right up there with, "Gotta pee?"


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## 1feral1 (13 Aug 2006)

WRT T-Flashes and Arty Sims. We used to do a demo with a wash basin under them, and from a distance candidates could see how dangerous these things really are. Also done was a pillow with a Arty Sim underneath. Blew the hell out of it.

My 2 cents,

Wes


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## Michael OLeary (13 Aug 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> In response to the people here claiming that training pyro can "throw people around" with powerful explosions, I call BS.



I believe that point was effectively put down back in April 2004 when the statement was made.


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## George Wallace (13 Aug 2006)

Wesley "Over There" (formerly Down Under) said:
			
		

> WRT T-Flashes and Arty Sims. We used to do a demo with a wash basin under them, and from a distance candidates could see how dangerous these things really are. Also done was a pillow with a Arty Sim underneath. Blew the hell out of it.
> 
> My 2 cents,
> 
> Wes



We used to demo the Arty Sim with a helmet from one of the students.  (Pre-Kevlar days)  It would blow the helmet a minimum of 250 m straight up in the air and in the process would invert the fiberglass liner inside out.  Of course the helmet was now N/S, often with a few tears in it.  I have seen the demo done with 45 gallon drums also.

My worse experience was when a DS threw an Arty Sim under the M113 that we were sitting in with the ramp down.  It actually lifted the M113 a few inches and deafened us all inside.

These are not toys.


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## Trooper Hale (13 Aug 2006)

Just got back from a week out field and saw a hell of a lot of Arty sims being thrown around. I was enemy force and snuck up to around 10m from the SQ courses trenches. Had the misfortune of having one of the Mcpl's throw an arty sim without knowing where i was and it landing about 3m away from my ear. Second that whistle sounded my face was flat in the dirt. Wasnt a fun experiance when it went off but then again it wasnt that bad. I had no idea they were as powerful as you folk are saying though. I would have been a bit more concerned if i did. As long as your sensible with them they seem to me to be a really good training tool to me, the privates on the course definately loved them, especially when they went off at 2 in the morning and they had to get out of bed.


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## GAP (13 Aug 2006)

Hale said:
			
		

> especially when they went off at 2 in the morning and they had to get out of bed.



Ask them that when it's for real and they've had to get out of bed at 2am and dive for the bunker! It's good training...something we never had until the real thing happened. I didn't know whether to sh*t or bite my tail the first time it happened.  ;D


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## Trooper Hale (13 Aug 2006)

Haha, well how about this GAP. As (I think it was) Reccebydeath walked past on of the trenches a private complained to him that (paraphrasing) "When the arty sims go off we get some gravel and dirt land on us, shouldnt you throw them further away". To which reccebydeath responded "What do you think happens when a mortar lands in front of you?".


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## Blackadder1916 (13 Aug 2006)

Years ago when I was a young soldier the potential for damage by pyro was well demonstrated on two occasions.  

On ex in Wainwright, the Evac Coy HQ and Amb Pl was in a hide at 0dark30.  The OC, having just returned from an O Gp, pulled into the position.  Not a sound was heard, except for the distintive low roar of a heater in a 5/4 box amb.  Quickly deciding to demonstrate the consequences of not maintaining noise discipline, he pulled the cord on an arty sim and placed it on the hood of the offending vehicle while muttering "that will show those little bastards to sleep in the back of the ambs."  Well, when the guys in the back scrambled out, they found the windshield blown out, the hood buckled and the OC wondering how he was going to explain this one.

Again in Wainwright.  At the end of WAINCON, a couple of amb dets stayed to provide support to the Royal Regiment of Wales who were using the training area. I was attached to one of their companies set up in a defensive position.  The CSM was liberally supplied with arty sims and on one occasion threw several while a group were in the open.  One landed close to a soldier who was trying to take cover on the ground.   Afterwards, he came to me complaining that he was a little dizzy and his ears were ringing.  He had no external signs of injury, but when I looked in his ears, there was a trace of blood in one of the canals and one of his eardrums had been ruptured.  Amazing what a little over-pressure will do.


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