# pistols/ hand guns



## theoldyoungguy (22 May 2006)

I just passed my restricted/un-restricted firearms safety test and am now waiting to recieve my FAC in the mail. With that being said im looking to buy a pistol. My knowlege of these things are very limited and am looking for advice on what type of pistol to buy. I dont have alot of money to buy a pistol, meaning i dont wanna be spending over $500 when its all said and done. Can anyone recommend a pistol that fires very well and will give me few problems?


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## paracowboy (22 May 2006)

Ruger Mk II. .22LR. Shoots forever, low maintenance, highly accurate, ammo is dirt cheap so you can shoot all day, ammo is very low recoil so you can practice your drills properly without developing bad habits (ie "flinching", etc), firearm itself is cheap, and nobody looks at you like a psychopath for having a "plinking" gun.


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## mudgunner49 (22 May 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Ruger Mk II. .22LR. Shoots forever, low maintenance, highly accurate, ammo is dirt cheap so you can shoot all day, ammo is very low recoil so you can practice your drills properly without developing bad habits (ie "flinching", etc), firearm itself is cheap, and nobody looks at you like a psychopath for having a "plinking" gun.



+1 to paracowboy - it's my belief that nobody should start out with anything but a .22 and the Ruger is a great choice.  I have 4 of them in various configurations...


blake


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## Enzo (23 May 2006)

Try Marstar.ca


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## Big Red (24 May 2006)

On your budget a  used CZ75 is a good choice. Sometimes you can find a Glock 17 for around $600 and it's a solid pistol. 

Honestly, without some proper training (NOT CF), you're just going to be teaching yourself bad habits. Save up a bit and attend some decent training, even an  IPSC Black Badge course.  If there's an IPSC or any other type of action shooting club near you, go hang out with them and learn.


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## KevinB (24 May 2006)

FWIW - Bulleyes pistol shooting will get the marksmanship down pat.

I tend to steer away from the IPSC stuff - a lot of it is way to wannabe-- IDPA is a more credible sport to transfer to the CF.  However a lot of good shooters do IPSC - just dont listen to their lack of tactics


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## Laps (29 May 2006)

Just started a little while back with handguns too, and both a couple for under $500 ea (NIB).  I bought a Walther P22, which is fun-to-plink-with .22 version of the bigger P99.  22s are fun to shoots, and you can put 1000s or rounds downrange for $10-$15.

For more "realistic" shooting, I bought a Norinco (for those of you conoisseurs, don't grimace quite yet, we cannot all afford top of the line gucchy Glocks and Springfield guns...) copy of a Colt 1911.  It shoots quite well in the hands of a beginner and I didn't have to break the piggy bank for it.


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## Grunt (29 May 2006)

+1 On Ruger Mk2, my favorite plinking handgun.  They can be somewhat difficult to take down.

After a .22 you should be able to find a decent used 9mm Hipower for around 500ish.


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## TCBF (29 May 2006)

The Ruger .22 cal gets my vote as well.  I did my early pistol shooting twenty five years ago with a Walther GSP.  A nice target pistol - if you have $1500 - $2500.  Luckily, it was a club gun.  The center fire shooters in the club formed two teams and turned the B-21 indoor range into a 9mm vs .45 ACP debating club.  I bought a 10mm Auto when they came out a few years later (I was in no rush, as I was happy shooting rifle and shotgun).  The original 10mm Auto Norma loadings - 200 grain bullet going 1200 feet per second - would teach Chuck Norris how to flinch.

Start with a .22, and get some classes, is pretty good advice.  

Other shooters will often go out of their way to let you shoot a string out of their center fires - pride of ownership, and all that - so you will get a good idea of what is out there if and when you decide to go center fire.  If you do, do NOT sell your .22!  It's great for back-to-basics/de-flinching.

Be not swayed by the first gun you shoot or the first owner you talk to.  Take your time.  No hurry.

Tom


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## paul_h4554 (30 May 2006)

I mostly went to the gun club to practice for biathalon, but I noticed that all the new shooters were using the .22LR pistols to start out with too.


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## Iron Oxide (30 May 2006)

+1 on the .22 LR. I first started shooting pistols about a year ago at a club that has both .22 LR and center fire pistols. Long story short; I didn't start learning how to shoot until I put down the .40 and started working on the 'plinking' pistols. Rugger is a good name and popular, I personally find them a little light though.


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## COBRA-6 (30 May 2006)

Check out canadiangunnutz.com, they have a buy/sell forum with lots of pistols for sale. I agree that a .22 is the way to start. After that the most economical choice is 9mm, I would look at the Norinco Sig226 copies.


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## theoldyoungguy (30 May 2006)

Thanks for the advice. I think im gonna wait out until after this summer before i buy a pistol. In august im taking my DP2A inf course. that covers the 9mm browning. At least from that ill have a general understanding of pistols, enough to buy my own and practice.


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2006)

There is a Browning Hi-power for sale on CanadianGunnutz for approx. $575. A very good gun. Plus you would get the benefit of using the same gun as issued. I just bought a Norinco 1911 Commander from Armco in Prince George for $549 that has been tuned up by him (excellent value) If you do buy the Norinco NP-22/34 (Sig clone) buy it from a place that has a good warranty, some of them have developed problems. The other Nork pistols such as the 1911 & CZ clones are very reliable. Also the Bul 1911 at Marstar (steel/polymer) look interesting. If you can afford $850 a CPO Sig 226 is also a good value. If you buy a Glock, I personally advise going with the tried and true G17, plus the cost of 9mm is a lot cheaper than .40cal or .45acp

Buying a decent .22cal pistol is a great idea also as you can blast away all day without breaking the piggy bank.


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## KevinB (31 May 2006)

I tend to steer people towards Glocks these days 

I really like Sig's and BHP's (that have been worked on by a real smith) - but the Glock is the perfect pistol.

The only thing I dont like about my issue G19 or my personal G19's and G17 is that you cant customize them


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## COBRA-6 (31 May 2006)

And with Police Ordnance selling brand new G17's with Tijicon night sights ($100 value) at a discount for Mil/LEO for $749 + tax and S&H, they are a great value for something that is just about perfect out of the box.


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2006)

I have only heard one person complain about their G17 having a problem and that was a crack in the slide. However I know 2 people that had their .40cal Glocks split on them. Plus seen on a police forum in the US that they were having problems with their new generation .40cal Glocks with the rails. Seems the frame/slide rails were cracking when fitted with a light, the opinion was that the light was preventing the frame from twisting as designed during firing.


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## starlight_cdn (1 Jun 2006)

Gotta a G17 3rd Gen, like it a lot. I've put lots of rounds through it and it keeps plugging holes in paper. The only stoppages I've had with it have been poor ammunition related. I've got the night sight from the factory, they worked quite well during low light shoots. Also, mine has the NY trigger group......8lb trigger. It is a little more robust than the factory 5.5.  All in all I think the glock is and excellent secondary weapon.

I also have a BHP, SIG and Beretta. Happy with all of them after the BHP had some work done to it.

It is a tool. The operator of the tool is the key to tactical success......that's sound pretty geeky. :


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## Hot Lips (1 Jun 2006)

My brother is a handgun collector and he rebuilds his own and all that good stuff.  I have gone to the range with him and fired his 
Smith & Wesson .38 Special, Colt .45 and he had a long barrel .22 handgun, which I fired as well.

My favorite was the .38 Special...but hey I am a girl so perhaps it suited me best for that reason...very comfortable to fire and well I shot fairly accurately so I will credit the .38 Special for that...lol

Don't know alot about them myself but they certainly are a fun hobby.

I don't ever recalling him paying $500 for a handgun...but he has quite a few friends who are collectors and dealers, as well as people who rebuild them for a hobby.

HL


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Jun 2006)

Before taxes

Norinco 1911, CZ & Sig clones   $399.00

Sig 226 rebuilt from factory (CPO) $800

Sig 226 new                                  $999

Sig 226 Stainless		      $1150

Bul 1911’s 			      $699 and up

Glock G17 new                             $799


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## KevinB (2 Jun 2006)

I'm a gun snob - 

I've had a lot of handguns in the over $2k price range.

I dislike Nornico based on its China State Arms Industry (all revenue goes into their MILITARY) - their guns are a bargain for a base model gun.  However IF you get serious and are putting 20+k of rounds downrnage a year they will not hold up.  Add in Night Sights (for better day contrast for those who dont plan on using it as a tactical tool) some aftermarket parts (they break some basic parts in their 1911 and Sig clones with a couple K rounds -- and you could have gone a Glock 17 - which is the most idiot proof handgun in Canada (I prefer the 19 - but they have dangerous  : short barrels so are now verbotten in Kanada).

I have 2 3rd gen G19's in the US, (amongst other toys)  less than 500 each with Night Sight  ;D


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## Enzo (2 Jun 2006)

My wish list isn't compatible with current Canadian mores, so I'm SOL.

Sig Sauer P229R - Yes, I want to play with all 3 calibre's. I'm dying to see what the .357 SIG is like.
Ruger SP101 - Because I still have a soft spot for a small .357 5 shot revolver.
FN FIVE-SEVEN - It's ugly, but I'm curious about the 5.7x28mm ammunition and I'd like to play with this as well. Besides, 20 rd mags...
And of course, my personal favourite...
Kimber Ultra Carry II.

Because I wasn't bright enough to purchase a throwaway prohib pistol in '93, I am unable to investigate any of the above in Canada. The closest I can do is a Norinco NP-34 (Sig Sauer P228 Clone) as the barrel extends from the slide ~ 0.5" (yeah, that changes everything) and of course there are the moral issues Infidel mentioned.

So what does that leave? I have my eyes on a Para-Ordinance P14 Stainless; but as I'm supposed to be returning to training soon, I'm being stingy with my dollars. I like the Sigs (personal preference overall) and will get another in time. Glocks, I know I should love them, but I'm a bit, Meh... This must be where the personal preference comes in. Being reared on Colts, I just don't like the trigger. I'm curious about the H&K USP line. I don't know if this factors, but I tested a Glock 21 .45 ACP in Texas about 12 years ago and I haven't returned to it, maybe the current generation would be to my liking? I'll have to open myself up a bit to the Glocks and try them again. Maybe the smaller G19 will appeal, oh wait, that's right.

I'm a big guy w/ big hands, but I seem to prefer the smaller sub pistols (P228 vs P226). I shoot quite well with them and feel comfortable. But I can only indulge myself when I'm abroad where the rules aren't quite as restrictive as they are here.

I'm just musing aloud, wishing I was at the range now...


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## KevinB (2 Jun 2006)

My Glock 21 was the only pistol (well other than that damn Berretta 92-F) that I dont regret selling...
 It soured me on Glock for a long time.

I had a Glock23 but .40 is too pricey for me (I had gotten out of the Army and was going to University for a bit) so it when by the wayside (well it actually left during the divorce but thats another story that took my MP-5 too).

For work now - the G19 fits the bill -- seems US DOS decided the Sig P226 series they issue the SA's was too pricey for contractors so we all get Glocks -- Funny enough I shoot the Glock better under stress -- I have two Civy P226's (one 226R) and they are great guns too and much better for me for range work than the Glock.

My Kimber CDP was probably my most accurate pistol - followed by my Novak Custom Hi-Power 

Blah Blah Blah - sorry for the hi-jack.


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## Enzo (2 Jun 2006)

Seems that comes up often with regards to the Sigs, (first choice, but too much $$$, so we've gone w/ ********)

Notice no one mentions the Smiths anymore eh?


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## Kal (2 Jun 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> However IF you get serious and are putting 20+k of rounds downrnage a year they will not hold up.  Add in Night Sights (for better day contrast for those who dont plan on using it as a tactical tool) some aftermarket parts (they break some basic parts in their 1911 and Sig clones with a couple K rounds -- and you could have gone a Glock 17 - which is the most idiot proof handgun in Canada (I prefer the 19 - but they have dangerous  : short barrels so are now verbotten in Kanada).



If anyone is wanting a Glock 19 or other Glock compact, which are 'verbotten in Kanada' , Questar International has them with extended barrels of 106mm or longer.  Although the extra $300 bucks may not outweigh the slightly better ergonomics (for some shooters) of the 19 over the 17.

http://www.questar.ca/deals/Glock.htm


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2006)

I always had a hankering for the G26, but as i just bought a 1911 Commander and a P226ST, I think my wife would shoot me if I bought another pistol for awhile, working on a new shotgun and a M305.

Infidel why the G19 over the G26? or is concelling not the issue?

Have you tried any of the Springfield XD's?


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## Koenigsegg (2 Jun 2006)

Heres a question...
Are Heckler & Koch pistols available in Canada?  Namely the Mk. 23, and USP?

Just a temporary hijack, Sorry, but it will be done soon.
Danke


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## Kal (2 Jun 2006)

Koenigsegg said:
			
		

> Heres a question...
> Are Heckler & Koch pistols available in Canada?  Namely the Mk. 23, and USP?



The H&K brand and the USP models are readily available and quite common.  There is a civillian version of the mk.23 which is available, however, I've never seen one.  For the price, you could get a nice, higher end 1911 or wait for the H&K 45 which was recently previewed in the Shotgun News.


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## cpl-laing (3 Jun 2006)

Hello all,i personaly own a colt 1911 government issued it is a very nice gun i have done some mods to it,i don't exactly have my resticted firearms lisence yet...but i plan on getting it soon..i was just wondering when you join the military (infantry) do you get your restricted firearms lisence?  :threat: 

 PTE Laing


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## paracowboy (3 Jun 2006)

PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> i was just wondering when you join the military (infantry) do you get your restricted firearms lisence?
> PTE Laing


once again: No.


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## COBRA-6 (3 Jun 2006)

PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> Hello all,i personaly own a colt 1911 government issued it is a very nice gun i have done some mods to it,i don't exactly have my resticted firearms lisence yet...but i plan on getting it soon..i was just wondering when you join the military (infantry) do you get your restricted firearms lisence?  :threat:
> 
> PTE Laing



And just how do you own a handgun without a restriced P.A.L.??


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## Panzer Grenadier (3 Jun 2006)

Mike_R23A said:
			
		

> And just how do you own a handgun without a restriced P.A.L.??



Perhaps Grandfathered?


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## COBRA-6 (3 Jun 2006)

no, anyone who own a handgun must be licenced.


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## KevinB (3 Jun 2006)

Parents gun...


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## COBRA-6 (3 Jun 2006)

that's what I was thinking...


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## paracowboy (3 Jun 2006)

or loud talk with nuthin' to back it.


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## KevinB (3 Jun 2006)

I can lend him one if his dad says its okay  ;D


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## starlight_cdn (3 Jun 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I can lend him one if his dad says its okay  ;D



 :rofl: That's good :rofl:

Seriously, Very Nice Sidearm....


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## TCBF (4 Jun 2006)

Call 1911A1 for emergencies, call 911 for clean-up.

 ;D

Tom


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## 1feral1 (5 Jun 2006)

PTE-Laing said:
			
		

> Hello all,i personaly own a colt 1911 government issued it is a very nice gun i have done some mods to it,i don't exactly have my resticted firearms lisence yet...but i plan on getting it soon
> PTE Laing



So you personally 'own' a restricted weapon, yet do not have the proper paperwork to posess it? How do you do that? Of the once 40 hanguns that I LEGALLY owned, I never had never heard of anything of such BS.

As suggested, the only valid legal point about this is the weapon belongs to Mom or Dad. Not that there is anything wrong with that either, as long as the pistol locked IAW the regs, is not accessable by him at any time.

Hummmm.

Anyways, i think this guy is a cadet, as in a previous post he claims to be a first year Army cadet (not that there is anything wrong with that), but this should be rectified in his profile as he sounds like a CF mbr based out of 'GAGtown'.

Get the hint Mr Laing, and do the right thing. Don't pretend to be what you are NOT.

Bad ju-ju.


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## TCBF (5 Jun 2006)

"So you personally 'own' a restricted weapon, yet do not have the proper paperwork to posess it? How do you do that? Of the once 40 hanguns that I LEGALLY owned, I never had never heard of anything of such BS."

- Maybe the kids a gangbanger... and he DOES have a gun.


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## Enzo (5 Jun 2006)

I gave his profile a look, wondered at the Gagetown reference as well and agree with Wes. He has a website link that leads to a page of teen BMXers:

http://www.clearlanddirtjumpers.piczo.com/?cr=1&rfm=y

And in one of the links we find this: (I enjoy the dog in Camo)  ;D

http://www.piczo.com/clearlanddirtjumpers?g=20500948&cr=1

Last night it wouldn't load, so I googled and came across this:

_*Modern Firearms web-site guestbook
master corporal laing Email: traveman@hotmail.com URL: www.clearlanddirtjumpers. piczo.com, date: 2006-04-09 02:55:40 Delete or Edit This Entry ...
gb.mark-itt.ru/cgi-bin/ugb.cgi/191?startwith=20 - 18k - Cached - Similar pages*_

Master Corporal eh buds? Is that a Cadet rank? I suppose you're drive is to be appreciated and your youth a factor to be accounted for, but all of this raises a few questions here lad; mind stepping up?


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## purple peguin (5 Jun 2006)

umm wow, lol this guy seems dangerous! Hes got some really nice shiny pellet guns to go with his colt 1911. Again WATCH OUT! We dont wanna get our eyes shot out, better leave this hard core guy alone.  :


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Jun 2006)

In his MSN profile the good Pte Laing is 15....get with the prpgram dude and don't pretend to be someone you are not....


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Jun 2006)

I think you guys have spanked him enough. Although a bigger person would come on and acknowledge his error, let's leave this be and get back to the original subject. Fair warning, let it drop.


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## Popurhedoff (6 Jun 2006)

With a budget of only 500.00 you will be limited in your choices.  You can buy a good used .22lr or other used handgun.  If you can afford to feed a centerfire handgun I would suggest a Norinco.  Inexpensive and there is quite the selection of clones you can choose from.  

A NP22  (Sig Saur P226 Clone) is a nice pistol to start with... there are a few guys who use them in IPSC competition with great success.  Later on when you can afford the more expensive handguns you can get just about anything.  Remember that there are as many opinions as there are models of handguns.

Good luck and enjoy the sport.

Cheers
Pop

P.S.  I use Glocks in competition (IPSC, IDPA, Tactical Shooting etc)... but the XD40 Tactical is a better pistol...   remember..that is only my opinion.


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## COBRA-6 (6 Jun 2006)

Popurhedoff said:
			
		

> P.S.  I use Glocks in competition (IPSC, IDPA, Tactical Shooting etc)... but the XD40 Tactical is a better pistol...   remember..that is only my opinion.



Madness!  ;D

Can you expand on that? What makes it better? Ergonomics? Durability? Reliability? Quality?


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## teddy49 (7 Jun 2006)

I have a Norcy Commander, that out shot the Springfield Loaded that I paid more than twice as much for.   That was a piss off.  I swapped the Sprinfield for a Kimber TLE/RLII and that problem sorted it self out.  But even it doesn't shoot significantly better than the Norcy.  But I did put on new sights, a drop in beavertail, and a new safety, dehorned it myself, and had it refinished.  So $450 was just the price of admission I guess.


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## mustialwaysremember (8 Jun 2006)

Norinco NP-30 'High Cap' .45 ACP (1911) clone. Just do it. 
FEG 9mm BHP clones are good for you if you want BHP experience.

I just got a CZ-75B stainless. I shot 2'' groups at 10 yards. May fit your hand nicer than a FEG or NP-30.


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## theoldyoungguy (7 Jul 2006)

well i just bought a springfield armory Xd-40 from my friend, used for $550. And as well for cheaper practice i bought a ruger MKIII512 .22cal. havnt shot either yet, but both are looking to be nice damn weapons. Ive heard nothing but good things about both so im stoked to fire them.


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## mudgunner49 (8 Jul 2006)

loyaleddie87 said:
			
		

> well i just bought a springfield armory Xd-40 from my friend, used for $550. And as well for cheaper practice i bought a ruger MKIII512 .22cal. havnt shot either yet, but both are looking to be nice damn weapons. Ive heard nothing but good things about both so im stoked to fire them.



loyaleddie87,

I haven't slung lots of lead with the XD, but I did spend an afternoon and managed to profitably expend about 500 rds with the .40 Tactical.  I found it very easy to shoot and had absolutely no trouble hitting with it, though I only shot it to about 30 metres.  I was restricted in that I had no holster so all drills were performed from the low ready but it did "feel really good" (whatever that means), and I'm thinking of picking one up to supplement all the Glocks that I have laying around.  I think _*probably*_ the Tactical version and I think _*probably*_ .40 cal...

I *really* like the stainless mags!!! :cheers: :cheers:

Check your PM's...


blake


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## Colin Parkinson (9 Jul 2006)

loyaleddie87 said:
			
		

> well i just bought a springfield armory Xd-40 from my friend, used for $550. And as well for cheaper practice i bought a ruger MKIII512 .22cal. havnt shot either yet, but both are looking to be nice damn weapons. Ive heard nothing but good things about both so im stoked to fire them.



An XD-40 for $550 is a very good deal.


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## Red 6 (11 Jul 2006)

Hey ya'll: I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth into this thread. I've carried a Sig P220 at work for ten years and am a Sig armorer. I've shot Glocks, Kimbers, S & W's etc. At different times in my military career i carried a Beretta 9mm and a 1911. I own two hand guns: a World War II issue 1911 and a Sig P229 in 9mm. I don't see the sense in buying a Chinese clone of a Sig, or any other combat pistol. Yeah, the real thing is spendy, but worth every penny. Save your money and buy a good gun, not a knock-off. There are some really good deals out there with pre-owned Sigs, for example, that were traded in by LE agencies and refurbished at the factory in Exeter. We just finished turning in all our old pistols for brand new P220s. The old guns were in great shape to begin with and Sig makes them even better before they sell them.

I don't know your firearms laws in Canada, but it seems to me whether you're a collector or carry a gun for self-defense, you want the best you can possibly get.

PS - here are a couple of pictures of me at the range last week,


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## ExSarge (26 Jul 2006)

Red,

Tell me you left the .45 stock, and did not customise it? I know there are a lot of ways to make that old iron into a better shooter, but the old soldier in me likes them just the way they came from the factory! Well, that is minus the six pounds of Cosmoline! Tell me do they still pack new weapons in that stuff or am I showing my age here?


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2006)

Red 
I have owned the Sig clone, unfortunately they copied an early Sig model with the poor spring design behind the right hand grip. Mine did suffer cracked rails at 2,000 rds, but I know people going 10,000 rds and still no problems, I also heard rumours that they are re-designing the frame a bit. So on the Sig clones the jury is still out. But they are ½ the price of a Sig CPO and getting the clone got me back into shooting, so it was worth every penny.

However I also own the CZ-85b & 1911A1C clones and they are excellent pistols. The only things I would change are the grips. Trigger springs and sights.

I also own the Sig 226 all Stainless, this is a pistol I highly recommend!


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## 1feral1 (26 Jul 2006)

I used to have a nice GI Remington-Rand M1911A1, a wartime (1944) made one, about 50% finish, well used in the Island fighting in the Pacific Theatre, and in Viet Nam. I bought it off a US Border Guard in 1980 for $200US. He was going through a shyte divorce. I still have the holster and belt, both 1943 marked. His Dad used the pistol in 1945, and he carried it in 1969-70. It bothered him to sell it (I would not have), but he knew it was going to a good home. I sold the pistol to a fellow collector upon leaving Canada for here. Thats one I regretted to sell.

Truly a legend in hanguns.

Cheers,

Wes


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## ExSarge (26 Jul 2006)

I envy you guys, I used to have a nice Browning Hi-power and an SKS, but got rid of them before returning to Canada. I figured it would be more hassle then it was worth to get them in legally.


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## Red 6 (26 Jul 2006)

ExSarge said:
			
		

> Red,
> 
> Tell me you left the .45 stock, and did not customise it? I know there are a lot of ways to make that old iron into a better shooter, but the old soldier in me likes them just the way they came from the factory! Well, that is minus the six pounds of Cosmoline! Tell me do they still pack new weapons in that stuff or am I showing my age here?



Roger, my duty weapon —the P220— is factory stock. (We're not authorized to modify them.) My P229, which is my personal weapon, is also factory stock. I figure it shoots better out of the box than I ever will. The only thing I did to it was move the rear sight over with a sight pusher. 

Sarge— That 1911 was a great pistol. You know, the last US government contract for 1911's was in 1945. All the .45 Colts used after that date were made in WW2. Even today, the MEUSOC .45's are built on WW2 frames and slides at the armament shop in Quantico. Pretty amazing.


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## 4444 (27 Jul 2006)

Not exactly what pricing / availability would be in Canada but I have to put my vote in for the Springfield XD. It's a great weapon. I strongly prefer it to the Glock. It's got better safety features and, in my opinion, far easier target acquisition. The angle of the grip is different from the Glock (more details can be found on their website) and in my experience it makes feel like a natural extension of the arm (for lack of a better explanation). Quality, durability, and accuracy are just as good as a Glock. If you can't afford a Sig, go for an XD.


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## 1feral1 (27 Jul 2006)

Hey 4444, welcome to the website. if you'd like please fill on some of your profile, so we all can get a chance to see what experience you have (former Mil, LEO etc IPSC perhaps), and I see you have already introduced yourself in your first post. Thanks, and again welcome.

Regards,

Wes


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## ExSarge (27 Jul 2006)

Red 6 said:
			
		

> Sarge— That 1911 was a great pistol. You know, the last US government contarct for 1911's was in 1945. All the .45 Colts used after that date were made in WW2. Even today, the MEUSOC .45's are built on WW2 frames and slides at the armament shop in Quantico. Pretty amazing.




I had forgotten that! I remember in the early 70's my unit received a number of replacement refurbished M1911A1's. Each one came in its own foil wrapped bag. At the time I had just finished a two week unit armourer’s course and was assisting the unit armourer. In my excitement, remember I was a young PVT at the time, I ripped open one of these bags and was promptly covered in preservative lubricant. That was one set of fatigues that I never got clean again! Each pistol also came with one of the original russet leather holsters with leg tie down strap. They were in excellent condition but apparently had been in store since 1917 according to the packaging.


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## Red 6 (27 Jul 2006)

In 85, when I was in the Blackhorse, we turned in our 113s and ITV's for transition on the Bradleys. I was in a scout platoon and we had six tracks— 3 113's and 3 ITV's. So, we had to wrap the .50 cal machine guns and M60's in cosmolene to prep them for turn-in. This other Soldier and I got stuck with cleaning and prepping them for long-term storage. They had to go in these big foil sacks about the size of a body bag. I think I still have some of that cosmolene under my finger nails.

It's funny, at work, whenever we clean weapons, everybody wears rubber gloves. But, in the Army we never used any sort of hand protection. On the Bradley, you use GMD on the 25mm chain gun. (Grease, Molybdenum Disulfide). We used to slather that stuff on by hand withour wearing anything on our hands. A couple of years ago, I was in the basement at work and some maintenance guys were working on the steam plant. I saw they had a five gallon can of GMD and were wearing thick rubber gloves, aprons and dust masks. I asked them how come they had all that stuff on. One of them told me, "That Moly-B is bad stuff—causes all sorts of cancer." I thought, "Oh great, just another good Army story..."


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Jul 2006)

MSDS for Grease, Molybdenum Disulfide
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd0001a/wcd01a47.htm

Your co-worker was right. Document for pension purposes


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## Red 6 (27 Jul 2006)

Thanks for the intel, recceguy. I know there are a bunch of you here that are 25mm-guys. Do you still use GMD?


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Jul 2006)

I'm not lucky enough to have worked with the 25, but I've used the grease for various things throughout my career. Used to use about 10 gallons of the stuff when we greased a Centurian, and I mean the tank, not the rank!!  Used to just scoop it out of the drum, by hand, and into the grease gun. Was going to use it for my M14, but maybe I'll try something else now. Got some in the garage that'll get special treatment from now on.


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## ExSarge (27 Jul 2006)

Jeez, you guys keep pulling up memories from my past. The first weapon I was issued in Basic training was an M-14. In the 82nd Abn, in the 70's each rifle company was assigned two M-14's as company sniper weapons. But then again we still had 3.5" rocket launchers as our AT weapons! For those not familiar with it, the 3.5 was a Korean War vintage copy of the original bazooka. We used to say you could tell who your platoon sergeant was p***ed at by who got assigned as the AT gunner. They were inaccurate, temperamental pieces of junk with no penetrating power and one hell of a back blast signature!


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## GAP (27 Jul 2006)

ExSarge said:
			
		

> Jeez, you guys keep pulling up memories from my past. The first weapon I was issued in Basic training was an M-14. In the 82nd Abn, in the 70's each rifle company was assigned two M-14's as company sniper weapons.



Did you ever get over your M-1 thumb?


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## ExSarge (27 Jul 2006)

I never got caught with that one! Rest assured it was just good luck and not good planning 

I did manage to help blow one up! My battalion spent one summer supporting ROTC cadet training. I and another two Pvt’s were given the detail of playing aggressors on an ambush scenario. We had to “ambush” the cadet patrol and “die” when they assaulted thru the ambush. To play the part we were issued M-14’s without blank adapters, which meant of course that each round had to be chambered manually. Well, we had a lot of down time between patrols, and as every NCO knows a private is most dangerous when left with nothing to do. We decided that we could get the weapons to self load if we increased the powder charge in the blanks. We emptied the powder out of a half dozen (give or take) blanks and packed it into one. When the weapon was fired the bolt blew out, the stock cracked and the guy firing it broke his nose! We of course adopted the universal excuse when questioned “Don’t know what happened sarge, it just fell apart!” After that incident our First argent referred to us as the three “G’s”, gangrene, garlic and goat s**t. I was Gangrene!


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## Red 6 (27 Jul 2006)

GAP said:
			
		

> Did you ever get over your M-1 thumb?



I don't think you could get M1 thumb with an M14. The magazine on the M14 loads from the bottom. You get M1 thumb loading the 8 round clip and the bolt slams forward on your thumb.


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## GAP (27 Jul 2006)

Red 6 said:
			
		

> I don't think you could get M1 thumb with an M14. The magazine on the M14 loads from the bottom. You get M1 thumb loading the 8 round clip and the bolt slams forward on your thumb.



correct, and you had better get that thumb out of there before that bolt catches it !!  ;D  God that hurts


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## ExSarge (27 Jul 2006)

You can get it if you load the magazine (while in the weapon) from a charger clip. The force needed will almost always unseat the bolt causing it to slam forward!


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## GAP (27 Jul 2006)

ExSarge said:
			
		

> You can get it if you load the magazine (while in the weapon) from a charger clip. The force needed will almost always unseat the bolt causing it to slam forward!



Why do that? It's super easy to slap out a mag, never used a charging clip(M14). I guess it's got it's advantages, just never exposed to it.


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## ExSarge (28 Jul 2006)

The only time I had to do it was in basic. Obviously they were familiarizing new recruits with the weapon, but if one happened to get their thumb caught, as some did, that was just a bonus!


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Jul 2006)

ExSarge said:
			
		

> Jeez, you guys keep pulling up memories from my past. The first weapon I was issued in Basic training was an M-14. In the 82nd Abn, in the 70's each rifle company was assigned two M-14's as company sniper weapons. But then again we still had 3.5" rocket launchers as our AT weapons! For those not familiar with it, the 3.5 was a Korean War vintage copy of the original bazooka. We used to say you could tell who your platoon sergeant was p***ed at by who got assigned as the AT gunner. They were inaccurate, temperamental pieces of junk with no penetrating power and one hell of a back blast signature!



My unit got to fire some of the last ammo for the 3.5” The rockets kind of wobbled through the air and we found that people would let the tube dip while firing causing the rocket to explode into the ground fairly close to the firing position. Glad I got a chance to compare them to the LAW and Carl G.


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## 1feral1 (29 Jul 2006)

Going off track here a tad, but I could not resist, when the 3.5 was brought up.....

At MILCON 1980 at Dundurn, 8 FES and 21 FER (in those days they were called that) fired the last 3.5" HE Korean War dated ammo the CF had in the system (CFAD Dundurn - even Angus did not have any), near Pimple Hill.

Six launchers fired all bloody day long. No misfires. I fired the ole M20A1 'Super bazooka' no fewer than 6 times that day, hitting the targets all but once. 

Targets? Freshly parked Ferrets which were driven out to the range, parked where they would be shot, and when they did get hit, they burned like buggery, full of oil, and whatever left over fuel was on board.

There was a dirty great big giant hockey sock full of HE rds, and we bogged the Duece in sand (the ole M135's before the days of the MLVWs), and two of had to crossload a whole truckload of it by hand. It was as hot as helll too!

Ah, those were the days.

Wes


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## ExSarge (29 Jul 2006)

Wes, what ranges were you firing at? I seem to remember that you pretty near had to screw that thing in someones ear before you were guaranteed a hit!


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## 1feral1 (29 Jul 2006)

From memory 100-250metres. Ferret scout cars.

That was the summer of 1980. Hard to believe 26 yrs ago earlier this month.

It was electrically fired. Remove a cover on the side of the bomb, load it, placing the protruding wires  into in a clamp type thing near the end of the 'stove pipe'.

It had shaped charge, and flew through the air like a fence post. Blew the living crap out of those four or five Ferrets.

What I did like about that beast was the tubes unlocked and could be carried broken down, and assembled in seconds.

Back in my Militia days with the Regina Rifles (Up The Johns), we used to fire what the Pl Comd, the then LT DJ Hendrickson (killed in a skiing accident in BC, Dec 1985) called 'sand bombs' out of the 3.5's, which was a blue warhead, like a giant ball rd whizzing through the air. Seemed we got more 'TPTs' than HE in the mid-late 1970s, but it was always nice to see the HE go off.

Many time off of Survey Point at Dundurn, there would be some old cars to shoot. 

Those were the days.


Wes


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## TCBF (1 Aug 2006)

"Your co-worker was right. Document for pension purposes"

- I've got so many Army chemicals lining up to kill me now, the bloody Molly Die will just have to wait it's darn turn!

- And yes, as the American 'Apachie chain gun tech' told us at KAF in 2002 "That's it! Coat the sucker so thick y'all can't see the bicycle chain!"

- Fired the 3.5" RL at the Mt. MacKay Range in Thunder Bay in Sep 72 and Sep 73.  Cement heads only.  Half the city heard the launches.


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## Loachman (3 Aug 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> My unit got to fire some of the last ammo for the 3.5” The rockets kind of wobbled through the air and we found that people would let the tube dip while firing causing the rocket to explode into the ground fairly close to the firing position. Glad I got a chance to compare them to the LAW and Carl G.


We had some in 4 RCR in the early seventies, like any other res Infantry unit, but always fired Carl Gustafs borrowed from 1 RCR. Somebody found some 1954 HEAT rounds in 1975 or 1976 so we fired them in Ipperwash in November of whichever year it was. With the cold temperatures and old ammo, the first guy to fire got unburnt propellant chunks blown into his face with one penetrating through his lower lip. Everybody following wore a balaclava with a piece of corrugated cardboard covering the disengaged eye and that solved that problem. Yes, several rounds were dumped into the frozen ground about 20 m or so in front of the firer. Others went skipping merrily downrange without exploding as they had to hit a solid target pretty much square on in order to detonate. We had one guy sitting up on top of the timber ammo bay with a pair of binos watching to see where they ended up. Only one or two ever actually hit the poor old Shermans before the day's practice was halted prematurely when a newguy loader rammed a round halfway up the tube - the RSO realized that something was not quite right when he saw buddy's left arm buried up to the elbow. The weapon was set aside and firing stopped while the wpn tech in London was called. He showed up three hours later and ended up blowing the whole thing up - all we ever found was the front cone badly mangled and devoid of paint.

The rest of the ammo was returned as it was not considered worthwhile carrying on.


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