# Israel's Army Eyes Female Role In Battle



## Blackadder1916 (30 Apr 2007)

Israel's Army Eyes Female Role In Battle
Israeli Army Probes Integration In Last All-Male Preserve: Infantry, Armor, Special Forces
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/29/ap/world/main2739308.shtml

JERUSALEM, Apr. 29, 2007 (AP)  When Alice Miller petitioned the Israeli Supreme Court in 1995 to let her become an air force pilot, the country's president, himself a famous airman in his younger days, laughingly compared women flying planes to men darning socks.

But the court ruled in her favor, opening combat jobs to women for the first time. One of them was Keren Tendler, a flight technician killed last summer when her helicopter was shot down by Hezbollah guerrillas over Lebanon.

The fighting Israeli woman soldier may endure as a stereotype, but in reality, a female death in combat is extremely rare. Save for isolated cases in the Jewish state's 1948 war for independence, women traditionally were confined to clerical and support jobs. But things have changed, and now an army-appointed commission of academics and officers is studying whether to integrate the army's last all-male preserve: infantry, armor and special forces.

Commission member Naomi Chazan, a prominent feminist and a former lawmaker, says the focus will be on "increasing the equality" of women in uniform _ and that means admitting them to tank and infantry formations.

The move is not crucial for the army, Chazan said, but for Israeli women. The army plays a central role in Israel, Chazan said, and "If the army consciously creates inequality on any basis, these values get into Israeli society."

But Yaakov Amidror, a retired major general, says such principles cannot drive military policy in a country that feels its national survival is at stake.

"As we've seen in other armies, gender integration causes sexual tension and is detrimental to combat performance, and it's just not worth it," Amidror said. "It's not coincidental that throughout human history, men have done the fighting."

Feminists might call his views old-fashioned, but they face a question: Do Israeli women even want to be on the front lines?

Lt. Col. Liora Rubinstein, a women's affairs adviser to the military chief of staff, acknowledges that few women volunteer for combat units. Many are turned off by having to sign on for an extra year to serve in most combat jobs.

"My son does soccer and judo, and my daughter does ballet. But then we tell her: 'Go to the army, be equal to the men, go ahead.' But of course it doesn't work like that," Rubinstein said.

Lt. Sivan Ben-Ezra, 21, commands a platoon in a mixed-gender "light infantry" unit, currently the closest women can get to front-line infantry. She isn't surprised more women aren't interested in jobs like hers.

"We have girls who come for the boots and the cool uniform. Those girls don't last," she said.

All Israelis except Arabs and ultra-orthodox Jews are drafted _ men for three years, women for two.

Ben-Ezra's unit is 70 percent female, and its main duty is to patrol Israel's peaceful borders with Egypt and Jordan. Another mixed unit operates remote cameras and sensors to police the more sensitive Syrian and Lebanese borders, and women also serve in the border police and checkpoint units that maintain the occupation of the West Bank.

During last summer's Lebanon conflict, a small number of women soldiers fired artillery shells and cluster bombs, served on navy vessels and flew combat sorties as pilots and weapons system operators. All told, around 1,500 women serve in combat jobs _ some 2.5 percent of female conscripts, according to army figures.

The turning point was Miller's Supreme Court petition, which provoked then-president Ezer Weizman to belittle her in a phone conversation as a "maidele," Yiddish for a young girl, and ask if she could imagine a man darning socks. He later said the comment was in jest.

Miller, then 23, failed the flight school entrance exams, but the court ruling forced the army to open all jobs to women or present a good reason not to.

Some Orthodox Jews protested that mixing the sexes was immodest, and other Israelis voiced concern that the public would not tolerate women being killed or falling captive. But even the grim circumstances of Tendler's death last summer _ rescue forces spent a day and a half in enemy territory searching for her body, then carried it on a stretcher back to Israel _ did not draw calls to reverse the policy, suggesting it has won broad acceptance.

The military has taken the precaution of making strict separation of barracks and bathrooms mandatory, and many commanders bar all physical contact save for shaking hands and patting shoulders.

*The reformers are inspired by Canada and several European nations which have integrated infantry units*, and from the apparent easing of the U.S. military's ban on women in ground combat.

Lory Manning, a retired U.S. Navy captain at the Virginia-based Women's Research and Education Institute, said women have been quietly serving with U.S. ground combat forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, and over 70 have died there.

"The consensus is that the women serving with these troops are doing very well," said Manning.

Says feminist Chazan: "People ask me, do you really want your daughter to serve in a unit like that? Well, I want my daughter to be able to decide, just like your son."

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When Canada looked at opening combat related jobs to women, Israel was one of the examples often cited.  Now it seems we are one of the examples they cite.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (30 Apr 2007)

It all depends if the Israelis are psychologically ready to have their female soldiers captured and raped....possibly on camera....because their enemy has no interest in following Geneva Convention regulations.  Instead they want to inspire fear and dehumanize the Jews in any way they can.


Matthew.


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## Douke (30 Apr 2007)

My only problem with women serving in such units is when there are two different standarts. For exemple, in Canada, mens PT test requires higher physical fitness then women's. Why would a man doing 9 push ups be worse for the job then a woman doing 9 push ups ? I am all for gender integration as long as you set ONE standart for the job (you have to be able to do X push ups, Y set ups etc.) and that standart is the same for everyone.

Douke


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## geo (30 Apr 2007)

Douke... nfortunately (or fortunately)  it is no longer an issue in Canada.  Women are allowed in the combat arms, and the sky has not fallen... There aren't many women in Regular force infantry positions but, those that are.... will keep up with the best of them... not an issue.


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## Douke (30 Apr 2007)

I don't think you understood my point (or maybe I didn't express it properly, my English is far from perfect), I am all for women in combat arms, heck I am serving with a few and I would definitly go to war with them. All I am saying is there should be one physical fitness standart regardless of the gender (like I said in the previous post, why would men that can pass the women physical fitness test be worse then them ?). Equality is a two way street in my opinion.

And I am not trying to to take that issue back on the table for Canada, I am just saying that if Israel want to make the move, they have to be careful about that (still in my opinion). Requierements should be made to fit the job, and not gender (or anything related to the personal attributes of the recruits).

Douke


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## jimmy742 (30 Apr 2007)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> It all depends if the Israelis are psychologically ready to have their female soldiers captured and raped....possibly on camera....because their enemy has no interest in following Geneva Convention regulations.  Instead they want to inspire fear and dehumanize the Jews in any way they can.
> 
> 
> Matthew.



A Rad Tech Sgt ( now a priest) who'd just returned from the Golan in 1980 told me a harrowing story about something similar happening during Christmas 1979. The enraged Israelis were restrained with considerable difficulty from crossing the border and going after the Syrians responsible. It seems likely that this would happen again.


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## HItorMiss (30 Apr 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> There aren't many women in Regular force infantry positions but, those that are.... will keep up with the best of them... not an issue.



If only that were true geo, of the 4 woman I have seen (2 officers, 2 NCM's) only 1 Officer was very good the other was tolerable in a staff job. And 1 of the NCM's does ok, the other thankfully left...The  truth of the matter is simply that the standards are different and as such woman that are not fit for my job pass because they have too not because they can!

Now I am not against woman in Cbt Arms I just want a woman that meets the same standard as I do...It's also a pipe dream


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## armyvern (30 Apr 2007)

How many POS males do you know in the infantry HorM? Just a query. 

At least the bad ones left. Do they still send the men to Range Control??  >


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## HItorMiss (30 Apr 2007)

No no not at all saying there are not POS men but when you're dealing with such a small percentage the difference is glaringly apparent. My issue is not woman my issue is a system that requires they pass QL3 no matter what. Where as at least with the guys though some will squeak by we catch morethen get though and remove them from the program much simpler then a female candidate.


Yeah we still punt them to Range Control....or 3 RCR


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## armyvern (30 Apr 2007)

An automatic pass for the girls?? Come on now, I know a couple of them who have failed QL3 (and they _SHOULD_ have failed too). No worries bud, we've got lots of shitty Supply Techs out there in the system too (a couple of them are even ex-infantry guys!!  ;D none are ex-infantry girls as far as I know) as all trades will have their good and their bad. 

What is the fail rate for Inf QL3 these days (if, of course, a QL3 Inf traing failure actually exists these days)?

On topic, I've had the pleasure to meet (and party with) some IDF women. Wow is all I can say. It's not just about the trg there...it's about their very right to exist for them...a huge motivating factor in both their outlook and their performance. I'm a little tipsy so forgive the grammar. 2 days left!!  ;D


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## HItorMiss (30 Apr 2007)

Not so much an automatic past as it is much harder to remove them..... We failed a Female off my course and she was recycled (as any candidate should be).  However it was much simpler to remove any other guy candidate then the female one. The re exist a large amount of pressure to funnel them into the system to make the statistics look better. The CF may like to say the are equal in everything but you and I both know how much of a lie that is. From basic PT standards for woman and men to PT standards across the CF period. 

As I said before I just want one standard we all meet and pass. If I am a 19yr old male and have to do 19 push ups then So should the 19 yr old female. I can't even imagine thinking you would disagree with that LMAO


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## armyvern (30 Apr 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> As I said before I just want one standard we all meet and pass. If I am a 19yr old male and have to do 19 push ups then So should the 19 yr old female. I can't even imagine thinking you would disagree with that LMAO



Seen an agreed. The only change I'd make is why does age matter either?? One standard for all. If the min req for the trade are XX pushups etc ad nauseum, then that is the min standard for all pers in the trade; regardless of age, sex, or whatever else they can come up with to mitigate them.


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## HItorMiss (30 Apr 2007)

Agreed 100%


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## Douke (30 Apr 2007)

Exactly the point I was trying to make in a very unskilful English a few messages earlier lol.

PT Test standarts should be :

Infanteers should be able to do X.

Clercks should be able to do Y.

Sailors should be able to do Z.

etc.

THAT is equality for everyone, not the current two weights two measures system.

Douke


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## HItorMiss (30 Apr 2007)

Wrong.....CF should be able to do X regardless of  sex, trade or age.


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## Douke (30 Apr 2007)

Well it is an opinion, and opinion can't be wrong... While I understand all CF personnel is to be an infanteer first and I agree the PT standart asked of them should reflect that, I think some trades (like infantry or sapers for example) should have higher standarts in regard to the generally more physically demanding environement their daily work take place in. The PT standart should not be the minimum to be able to serve in the trade, but the standart you wish the average member to be (as always, in my probably wrong opinion!).


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## HItorMiss (30 Apr 2007)

You're right your opinion in your own mind can't be wrong but I sure can think it is. And I think the min standard should be the Infantry standard acorss the board.

But we are derailing the topic. This should not be a standards argument but an issue of Woman in combat.


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## Douke (30 Apr 2007)

Point seen and taken. I guess we just have different opinions on that  .

As to woman in combat, I think it is necessary to talk of standarts to get on that subject, as it's about the only point people tend to disagree with in Canada. If they have the same standarts as me, I am all for it, good for the moral and it brings a new psychology and skillset to the battlefield, can only be beneficial.

Douke


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