# Friendly Advice for potential Infantry Officer candidates



## vonGarvin

Hello All
If you read my profile, you will note that I am an Infantry Officer, and that I am currently at the Infantry School.  I am putting creating this topic as a helpful note for you people who wish to be Infantry Officers.

Bottom Line Up Front: The infantry is one of the toughest trades you could join.  To be an infantry officer is probably one of the toughest things you could train to do.  I say this from experience, having been an Infantryman before I became an Infantry Officer.  Because of this, if you are not in top physical shape, if you are not adverse to being out of communication with your family for extended periods of time, including no Facebook, no Army.ca, no iThings, then joining as an Infantry Officer is not for you.  Don't waste my time and apply to be an Infantry Officer.

I cannot say this enough: if you are not in top physical shape, do not join as an Infantry Officer in spite of what a recruiter may tell you.  We will NOT get you into shape: you must arrive ready to conduct the training, no matter if you are a regular officer candidate or a reserve officer candidate.  To illustrate, I will outline the training system here at the Infantry School.

First, you will have to complete a course called BMOQ-L.  This is a ten-week army-level course, and one of the prerequisites is to be fit in accordance with CF standards.  This means you will have to complete what is called the Expres Test on day one.  (Please note that "Expres" is spelled correctly).  If you fail this, you will go to what is called a PRB, where the commandant of the school will determine your future.  Most likely, he will offer you coaching on the technique of the test, as well as to illuminate to you his philosophy on physical fitness training.  At this point, I would like to emphasise one example of a candidate who failed the Expres Test on day one.  He was coached, and then passed his retest two days later, gaining an exemption level (read: excellent) level.  He failed because of his technique, not because he wasn't fit.  So, during this ten-week course, which has a mix of garrison and field training, you will be challenged, but nothing like that expected of an infantry officer.  As well, you will be required to complete what we call the BFT or LFCPFS.

Once this course is done, you will have to complete the next course, which is called IODP 1.1. This is a dismounted infantry platoon commander's course.  It is 14 weeks long, and one prerequisite is to be fit in accordance with army standards.  This means that you will have to complete the LFCPFS during the first two weeks of the course (normally on day two or three).  If you fail this test, you will proceed to a PRB and most likely offered a retest.  But I must warn you: this test is an ARMY level physical fitness test, which applies to all army trades.  Naturally, as an infantry officer, we will expect you to excel at this test.

The course itself is in what I would term as three parts.  The first is a weapons stage, in which you learn the employment of the platoon weapons.  The next is what I would call the field phase, in which you learn offensive and defensive operations, patrolling and then full spectrum operations.  Finally, there is what I would call the Field Firing phase, in which you learn the ins and outs of setting up and running field ranges.

The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.  You will be in survival mode in the field phase, and incapable of demonstrating the ability to lead others in battle.  

The attrition rate for this course, for all reasons, is roughly 50%.  Not all fail, but some hurt themselves (which is unavoidable in some cases) but most failures I have seen are due to mental fatigue.  

If you are a reservist, completing IODP 1.1 will mean that you are done, and you can then go on to your reserve Regiment as a fully qualified infantry officer.  If you are a regular force candidate, then you have one more course to complete: IODP 1.2.  

This course is actually three courses: Turret Operator, LAV APC Crew Commander, and then IODP 1.2 Mechanised Infantry Platoon Commander.  This course is to the mental what the IODP 1.1 is to the physical.  No longer will you have to worry about your platoon moving at the pace of a walking man, but now you will be going in excess of 50 KMH, cross country, and have to consider assets external to the platoon (tanks, artillery, engineers, etc).  Fitness is vital in this course as well, but considering that IODP 1.1 weeds out the weak, those who make it this far have the requisite level of fitness.  Still, the past two courses have seen abnormally high failure rates.  Some just can't make the mental leap to having to consider several square kilometres at once, as they move about the battlespace.  You need to be an agile thinker to be successful.


So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.


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## Container

What an awesome post. Thanks- man that challenge would be awesome.


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## Journeyman

To flesh out the post a bit more, I'll repeat some stats.* These were provided by the Commandant of the Infantry School and posted here  last fall.

At the time, the "if you're not up to speed, don't waste Technoviking's time" was merely implied.   ;D



* It's a public service; I've heard that _some_ people's time is apparently way too precious to actually do their own online searching. I can't imagine such a thing, but then, I don't spend much time in the Recruiting threads.


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## vonGarvin

(Yes, this topic is, well, topical to me)
I will further emphasise the kinds of people our soldiers deserve.
I have instructed many infantry officer candidates, and I will tell you the story of two of them, but I will not use their names.

The first was a young fellow, a level-headed, intelligent kind of person.  He was unassuming in that he wasn't over the top.  He was what I would call a quiet professional on course.  He did his assessed tasks well, and then graduated.  He went on and completed his jump course, and then deployed to Afghanistan in 2007.  He was well-respected, and had an amazing career ahead of him.  Then he was killed in action.  He was the kind of fellow who would run to the sounds of the fighting, level-headed, and full of confidence.  He didn't need to rant and rave to get people to react.  He was was in excellent physical shape, and as a result he was always at the front, telling his subordinates to "follow me".  He is the kind of fellow we want.


The second was another guy who not only had a good sense of humour, but was also smart, listened to advice and yet led from the front.  One day in Afghanistan, barely a year after graduating, there he was in Zharey district.  An IED had just killed two soldiers, and more importantly to this story, his company commander was incapacitated from wounds suffered.  This young fellow, surrounded by soldiers with many years experience and several tours each, all turned to him.  He calmly took over.  His reports to higher on the radio were informative, calm and relevant.  He assumed command of the company and completed clearing the objectives that were the company's responsibility: just because two soldiers were killed and many more wounded was no excuse to not complete the assigned task.  Then, due to a changing situation, he had to alter his extraction plan from on foot to a hasty extraction by helicopter, all the while facing threats from the enemy, sometimes manifested by people shooting at them.  So, this young, early-twenties man, fresh from officer training, had to fight a battle, take out enemy who were shooting at them, and manage the extraction by helicopter (which in itself, without the enemy mucking things up for you, a very complex task).  He did this all quietly, calmly, and more importantly successfully.

So, ask yourself: do *you* want to be him?  Can *you* hack it?  If your answer is yes: then the infantry may be for you.  If you hesitate in your answer, then don't bother; you'll only waste my time...and yours.

(Edited for formatting)


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## NavyShooter

Damn.

I wish ALL officers went through this.

When you find yourself working for one of those that can calm the storm, you want them to stay, and you want to stay with them.  I've worked with/for both extremes, but I'm certain those I've worked with have never faced the extreme circumstances your colleagues have served through.

We serve in different worlds.  

For those choosing to lead, lead well.  

NS


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## Infanteer

Sounds pretty intense - I don't think I'm interested....


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## vonGarvin

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Sounds pretty intense - I don't think I'm interested....


:rofl:


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## medicineman

So you're saying allowances wouldn't be made if I were a little older than most of the candidates, some of the staff and had some body bits a little on the wrong side of functional?

MM


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## vonGarvin

medicineman said:
			
		

> So you're saying allowances wouldn't be made if I were a little older than most of the candidates, some of the staff and had some body bits a little on the wrong side of functional?
> 
> MM


Some people don't get it that gender and age have no bearing on our assessment of people.  


(NOTE: This isn't directed at Medicineman: he knows what the deal is) ;D


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## medicineman

Just checking - I hear it on a daily basis almost about "age and gender should have some modicum of bearing on how I'm employed" stuff... ;D.

MM


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## Redeye

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Sounds pretty intense - I don't think I'm interested....



Me neither.  That sounds like it sucks!

This must have been what the "F*** it I quit" guys heard in the Commandant's address when I got my degree from the University Of Fire And Movement.

But to those reading and considering applying, this is the truth.  The process is hard.  It will probably be the hardest thing in your life, I think it probably was for me.  But nothing will replace the feeling of standing on grad parade at the end of 1.1 (which as a Reservist was the end of the line for me) knowing I'd done it.


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## vonGarvin

Redeye said:
			
		

> But nothing will replace the feeling of standing on grad parade at the end of 1.1 (which as a Reservist was the end of the line for me) knowing I'd done it.


For me it was the satisfaction on grad parade of turning to the BMOQ-L grads (then called "phase 2 grads"), and saying "Hey, fellas, well done!  Now look around.  This time next year, half of you won't be here where I am today".

The sense of accomplishment for IODP 1.1 was probably even better than 1.2 for me.  1.2 was almost anti-climatic.


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## Michael OLeary

I just recall that day we graduated and could turn in our pila and gladii one last time before heading off to our battalions.    :warstory:


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## Pusser

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Damn.
> 
> I wish ALL officers went through this.
> 
> When you find yourself working for one of those that can calm the storm, you want them to stay, and you want to stay with them.  I've worked with/for both extremes, but I'm certain those I've worked with have never faced the extreme circumstances your colleagues have served through.
> 
> We serve in different worlds.
> 
> For those choosing to lead, lead well.
> 
> NS



I've always felt that being calm in the storm is an admirable trait and should be encouraged.  Unfortunately, many in the Navy don't seem to agree.  In many people's view if you're not running around screaming direction, you're not leading.  This has always driven me nuts.  I grew tired of being dumped on for NOT panicking.


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## NavyShooter

I've been sitting in my boss's chair for the past week or so. 

The first couple of days, I felt like all I was doing was reacting.  Putting out fires whenever they came up, and putting band-aids on things.  Chicken with it's head cut-off.

Now I've caught up a bit, but the pace is still...well...almost frantic.  Part of it is having a department that's torn between training, maintenance, SWP activities, and repairs.  Part of it is being down 60% of the people due to burning off leave, training, etc.  Part of it is that the folks we do have seem very junior.  

This is the way experience is won...through doing.  

Two words that I try to remind myself of each day when things get "busy".....Relaxed Composure.  

I had a discussion with my Dad late last fall, and those two words struck me, and I'm trying to focus on them when times get...busy.  Jumping into action immediately is all too easy.  

Forcing myself to relax, gathering my thoughts on the task, and giving a well composed response is working better.

I've had discussions with friends of mine in the army, and their thoughts on the Navy's leadership are along the lines that "A decent Army Corporal has more leadership skills than most of the C&PO's mess, and all of the Wardroom combined."  

Some days, I tend to agree with them.  Most days, I try to prove them wrong.

NS


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## Halifax Tar

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> I've had discussions with friends of mine in the army, and their thoughts on the Navy's leadership are along the lines that "A decent Army Corporal has more leadership skills than most of the C&PO's mess, and all of the Wardroom combined."
> 
> Some days, I tend to agree with them.  Most days, I try to prove them wrong.
> 
> NS



I think this may be a bit harsh. Having worked both operationally and base side with the Army and the Navy I would have to say it comes down to the person, training be damned. Not every Infantry Officer who makes it through the training TV talks about is going to turn out peaches.


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## vonGarvin

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I think this may be a bit harsh. Having worked both operationally and base side with the Army and the Navy I would have to say it comes down to the person, training be damned. Not every Infantry Officer who makes it through the training TV talks about is going to turn out peaches.


I agree 100%.  From my very limited experience with working with Naval officiers (MARS officers), I have been quite impressed with them.  And you're right, just because you "survive" infantry officer training doesn't equal success in that trade.


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## ArmyRick

I have to admit, I don't envy the infantry officers. I was doing my 3B (Inf) when their was a DP1.2 course going on. They were getting slammed with estimates on Sunday night prior to heading to the field. What a way to start a week.


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## NavyShooter

Apologies, in looking at my response above, I think I derailed the original intent of the thread.

NS


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## ballz

Technoviking said:
			
		

> The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.



On that note, I will pass along here a tidbit of info from the OIC of DP1.1 that he told my platoon in sort of a Q&A period that was set up by our course officer. We were lucky enough to have that Q&A so for anybody, like myself, soaking all this info up in prep for DP1.1 this summer, he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m, before showing up on course. Just thought I'd pass that along for anybody wanting to set quantifiable goals.

Beyond that TV, just wondering if your post was prompted by the PRBs you are now swamped with because of the defensive ex that the Ph III course just finished, or is that just a coincidence


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## vonGarvin

ballz said:
			
		

> Beyond that TV, just wondering if your post was prompted by the PRBs you are now swamped with because of the defensive ex that the Ph III course just finished, or is that just a coincidence


Nope, in fact, those guys from 1.1 all still had the hunger, drive and desire, but just need a "do over" with a bit more mentoring.  It was BMOQ-L's string of VW's on week one of the course.  It was refreshing to see/hear that string from 1.1 all lay bare their desire that for them, it's "Infantry or Bust" as far as they were concerned.  They have the desire, it's just that they need a bit more time is all.


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## BC Old Guy

ballz said:
			
		

> in prep for DP1.1 this summer, he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m, before showing up on course.



Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard.  This is a 9 min km - compared to the almost 11 min km required in the BFT, without consideration of other factors.

I've talked with vets who have completed training and ops with similar loads, and they regret the damage this caused to their bodies - often evident only years later.  The article on the "Weight of War" (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/99486.0.html) should be considered. 

Yes - in operations, the heavy load, and the faster speed may be needed - but should we accept that as the default for all training, all work-ups exercises and all operations?  Or should we be striving to develop equipment which is lighter, and Tactics, Technique's and Practices that, as the default, don't cause excessive injury to the soldiers we lead?

Yes - the Infantry Officer course is tough - it always has been (with variances over the years).  I've been using similar warnings to the officer applicants at my current unit - and I wouldn't want the course to be watered down.  However, I do question some of the arbitrary standards that are applied.


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## GAP

I wouldn't want to be wearing all the gear you guys now wear, humping in the heat .......

I thought our ruck was heavy, but now with all the ballistic stuff on top of that, it's gotta be murder....my  :2c:


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## ballz

BC Old Guy said:
			
		

> Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?  This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard.  This is a 9 min km - compared to the almost 11 min km required in the BFT, without consideration of other factors.



To be clear, this load, distance and time, is not a minimum standard... The minimum standard is the BFT, which as TV said you have to do right at the start of course to continue.

This load, distance, and time was given to me, because I asked for a quantifiable goal to pursue that would replicate what I would be going through on field exercises.



			
				BC Old Guy said:
			
		

> I've talked with vets who have completed training and ops with similar loads, and they regret the damage this caused to their bodies - often evident only years later.  The article on the "Weight of War" (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/99486.0.html) should be considered.
> 
> Yes - in operations, the heavy load, and the faster speed may be needed - but should we accept that as the default for all training, all work-ups exercises and all operations?  Or should we be striving to develop equipment which is lighter, and Tactics, Technique's and Practices that, as the default, don't cause excessive injury to the soldiers we lead?
> 
> Yes - the Infantry Officer course is tough - it always has been (with variances over the years).  I've been using similar warnings to the officer applicants at my current unit - and I wouldn't want the course to be watered down.  However, I do question some of the arbitrary standards that are applied.



While I've got an opinion, mine stinks... But TV is certainly the right person to answer your questions and I am sure he will be doing so shortly ;D

But I do like the idea of striving for lighter equipment


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## aesop081

BC Old Guy said:
			
		

> Why is this load, distance and time  a minimum standard?



If you read carefuly, it is not a "standard", it is a recomendation on what level you should be at to make your life a bit more bearable.




> This is faster, with a heavier load than the BFT - which has been validated and is the army standard.



The BFT is the army's minimum standard. Combat rarely happens at minimum standards.


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## BC Old Guy

> This load, distance, and time was given to me, because I asked for a quantifiable goal to pursue that would replicate what I would be going through on field exercises.



Sorry - I'm not attacking you, but the person who gave you the info.  I'm glad you got the info - I don't think its incorrect.  However, I think the Inf School should take a close look at what they require during the conduct of their training.  The BFT is the minimum standard, however, when I see statements such as 





> he said you should, at a minimum, be able to ruck 75 lbs, 15km, in 2h15m,


  I understand that to be the de facto minimum standard, instead of the official standard.


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## GAP

It sounds more like a "train like you will work" standard than a minimum...


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## BC Old Guy

Rather than debate the nuances of words used, I'll return to the theme of the original post:

Infantry officer training is mentally and physically demanding.  Those who wish to be infantry officers need to be prepared.  The information provided by Technoviking is very good.  Anyone planning on being an infantry officer should read and heed.


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## ArmyRick

TV, 

On the Infantry 3B Course (rthose that don't know, its the WO qualification), candidates can be assessed as either platoon commander or platoon 2IC roles to pass. Is it the same on 1.1 and 1.2 INF Courses?

I found that PL 2IC roles were more checklist like and were far less mentally stressfull than being in the PL Comd role. I still remember being the first guy in the breach as PL COMD (fighting patrol-ambush) on first night of the dismounted offensive week. The estimate and the backbriefs I think were more nerve racking than trying to complete the actual mission.

My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course). 

Good luck to those who give it a honest go!


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## vonGarvin

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> TV,
> 
> On the Infantry 3B Course (rthose that don't know, its the WO qualification), candidates can be assessed as either platoon commander or platoon 2IC roles to pass. Is it the same on 1.1 and 1.2 INF Courses?
> 
> I found that PL 2IC roles were more checklist like and were far less mentally stressfull than being in the PL Comd role. I still remember being the first guy in the breach as PL COMD (fighting patrol-ambush) on first night of the dismounted offensive week. The estimate and the backbriefs I think were more nerve racking than trying to complete the actual mission.
> 
> My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).
> 
> Good luck to those who give it a honest go!


Hey there
The Infantry Officers on DP 1.1 and 1.2 will act as pl 2IC, but they aren't "hard assessed" on it, not like a candidate on 3B.  It's just the leadership aspect of it. So, a debrief may be "Your Cas Evac and PW points were too far apart, you didn't do x, y or z, but your platoon knew you were in charge and for a guy who knows nothing of the tasks of a Pl 2IC, you gave it a good attempt.  Well done."

As for the weight/distance thing posted earlier: no, it's not a standard.  It's one officer's opinion on what you probably should be able to do in order to meet the demands of the course.  That's all.  And it's probably a very good estimate.


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## Redeye

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> My advice to future infantry officers, imagine being sleep deprived, exhausted and hungry, now you also have to THINK (using the combat estimate as your tool) and come up with justifiable COA (Course of Action or a plan in simple terms). Be prepared, its not like NCM DP1 where you can get away with being a ballsy and fit pack mule (far less thinking on the course).



This is great advice.  I've had the privilege of sitting on several officer selection boards and I usually frame up a question to convey this sort of advice or idea - because I don't think a lot of applicants get that this is what they'll need to do - they need to be functioning far beyond just "survival mode" and need to be able to use the estimate process, come up with a workable plan, convey that plan to a bunch of candidates who are almost zombified themselves, and also to the DS.  The School does a good job of forcing you to use the estimate process to prove you can and to make all the considerations, and that is a large part of why it's not enough to just be able to physically endure the hardship of the course.  You have to be able to lead others through it because that is what is expected of the course candidates who made it to grad parade.


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## Italiansoldier13

What is involved in the fitness testing? I am  pretty physically fit been working out ritually since I started highschool but I wouldnt mind having an idea to work towards. I know the cadet testing is based on Standing long jump, pushups, pacer run, and situps. I have a feeling the officer fitness is far more difficult and covers more.


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## Michael OLeary

Italiansoldier13 said:
			
		

> What is involved in the fitness testing? I am  pretty physically fit been working out ritually since I started highschool but I wouldnt mind having an idea to work towards. I know the cadet testing is based on Standing long jump, pushups, pacer run, and situps. I have a feeling the officer fitness is far more difficult and covers more.



You will find that searching the site will answer most of your questions:

site:army.ca PT test


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## original_brad

I've heard rumours that the infantry school will be conducting their own form of fitness testing for the CAP/ BMOQ-Land courses.  Any word on this??


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## ArmyRick

OK, enough with the rumours, the facts are you are assessed "formally" with the BFT (13 KM, decent load, under 2 Hours 30 minutes or there abouts).

If you are going to be an officer, than it should really not matter WHAT the PT standards are. As an Officer (infantry or otherwise) you are expected to lead by example and this starts with a high standard of Physical Fitness. As an officer you are expected to perform to a higher standard than the troops, end story. If you are not prepared for this (it starts with the right mind set) than seriously re-think your career path about pursuing a commission.

CF Officers must display a high degree of professionalism, conduct, leadership and fitness.

Before beggining a career as an officer I reccomend a very simple regime of running (don't worry about distances aim for 30-45 minutes continious), long distance walking (very improtant) and the basic calisthetics such as push ups, chin/pull ups, jump squats, leg raises, sit ups. Make it a habit to start at 5 in the morning. Get used to it.

Biggest thing, get your head into it 100% or don't waste the CF's time.


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## vonGarvin

original_brad said:
			
		

> I've heard rumours that the infantry school will be conducting their own form of fitness testing for the CAP/ BMOQ-Land courses.  Any word on this??


This rumour is completely false.
The prerequisite level of fitness for BMOQ-L is the CF Standard (aka "ExPres Test").

During BMOQ-L you will be required to achieve the Army level of fitness (aka "BFT").


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## DELTADOG13

Just to give you some insight. The second officer Techno Viking talks about was my Pl Comd. He started the tour as the junior Pl Comd and finished as the senior Pl Comd. He was decorated for said  incident. He was and still is the best combat officer I've ever met. I would follow him to hell and back!

DELTADOG13


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## vonGarvin

DELTADOG13 said:
			
		

> Just to give you some insight. The second officer Techno Viking talks about was my Pl Comd. He started the tour as the junior Pl Comd and finished as the senior Pl Comd. He was decorated for said  incident. He was and still is the best combat officer I've ever met. I would follow him to hell and back!
> 
> DELTADOG13


I was hoping that he would have received something higher for his acts that day, but that day is still with me, for both good reasons, and obviously bad reasons.



:cheers:


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## daftandbarmy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.



Hmmmm.. doesn't sound too friendly to me!  

Any particular reason for posting this information? I'm assuming that you're trying to help aspiring junior officer candidates get ready for training this summer, and that you've seen some people come through who were not well prepared (personally or by the system) to succeed on the course.


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## vonGarvin

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Hmmmm.. doesn't sound too friendly to me!
> 
> Any particular reason for posting this information? I'm assuming that you're trying to help aspiring junior officer candidates get ready for training this summer, and that you've seen some people come through who were not well prepared (personally or by the system) to succeed on the course.


I say "friendly" because I'm trying to be nice to those who deserve it most: our infantrymen and those infantry officer candidates who want to lead them.  

But the reason was posted a bit earlier: many young lads have been sold a bill of good, or just didn't fully comprehend what it takes to be an infantry officer, and they take up space in the "system" from those who do want to be that.  That's all.


(ANd yes, helping those who want it, and clarifying what it is for those who aren't sure, or who have false ideas of what it means)


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## ballz

Technoviking said:
			
		

> (ANd yes, helping those who want it, and clarifying what it is for those who aren't sure, or who have false ideas of what it means)



And you've done a heck of a job at that so far, through the many PMs I've sent and these threads. Prepare for a barrage of more as 24 May comes closer, I apologize in advance ;D

Cheers


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## Command-Sense-Act 105

Just to add some context, one fine day in Afghanistan I was near a scale, so I weighed my kit, the normal kit I wore/carried on an average patrol (normally a 4 x weekly event at the minimum).   The shortest patrols were normally clearing patrols in and around the TI to a radius all around the position of about 1500m, so do the math.  Directed patrols into the villes or other times were longer.

My kit, plain-Jane, weighed 75lbs.  Before the weight of extra water, extra batteries, an M72 or "other Force Protection equipment".

So be ready to carry and keep up.

BTW I was a Cavalry soldier, not infantry, so I'd suggest to orient your fitness level accordingly.  Everything TV says is 100% ccorrect, so if you have doubts of ability or drive, remuster out of the Combat Arms now.


----------



## DELTADOG13

Techno Viking,

I was hoping he would get more too. Something along the lines of a MSC or MMV. The General that day tried to have him reconsider his release. Sometimes you have to make hard career choices and get on with it.

DD13


----------



## PrairieBoy

This is all really good advice, and I thank you for it!

I'll admit, I'm not in the best physical shape. Oh I'm active, I enjoy rugby and bicycling and other things, but I'm still working on getting into top physical shape for my BMOQ. However, Infantry Officer is the thing I want most out of the Army, and I'll do whatever the Forces asks me to do if it means I can be an Infantry Officer.


----------



## Ayrsayle

Thank you TV - This post (and subsequent replies, etc) was perhaps the most informative piece of information available to us civilians looking into joining the Infantry. The Recruiters by and large were unable to provide information outside of "It's a hard job, are you fit?"

In fact, it was this post which made me change my mind on my application. I was not considering becoming an Infantry Officer, but sat down with your questions for a week and realized this was the kind of challenge I wanted from my career. Thank you for the honesty, I found it quite inspiring.


----------



## vonGarvin

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> Thank you TV - This post (and subsequent replies, etc) was perhaps the most informative piece of information available to us civilians looking into joining the Infantry. The Recruiters by and large were unable to provide information outside of "It's a hard job, are you fit?"
> 
> In fact, it was this post which made me change my mind on my application. I was not considering becoming an Infantry Officer, but sat down with your questions for a week and realized this was the kind of challenge I wanted from my career. Thank you for the honesty, I found it quite inspiring.


You're welcome.  And I hope that one day you will know the feeling of being an Infantry Platoon Commander.  Though it may not seem it at times during your training, it's more than worth it.

Cheers!


----------



## spanishflame

I would like to ask a question to you Technoviking.

I am a Corporal in a support trade. I am thinking of applying for either CEOTP or UTPNCM to become an Infantry Officer. It is something I always wanted to do. I am in pretty decent physical condition. I could do a BFT every week with no problem at all. However I am not the best runner. No matter how much I train I cannot get higher than level 9 on the express test. However I can run 10 k in 50 minutes everyday. Would that be a major issue?

Thank you Sir


----------



## vonGarvin

spanishflame said:
			
		

> I would like to ask a question to you Technoviking.
> 
> I am a Corporal in a support trade. I am thinking of applying for either CEOTP or UTPNCM to become an Infantry Officer. It is something I always wanted to do. I am in pretty decent physical condition. I could do a BFT every week with no problem at all. However I am not the best runner. No matter how much I train I cannot get higher than level 9 on the express test. However I can run 10 k in 50 minutes everyday. Would that be a major issue?
> 
> Thank you Sir


If you can ruck with weight beyond the BFT weight, and if you can do level 9 on the express, and 10k in 50 mins, you should have no issues at all.  Physically, anyway.  The main obstacle I find with candidates is their psychological barriers.  We have all faced them, and we have all needed help getting past them.  You already have the basics down, I assume (the soldier skills), which should put you in a good position.

I wish you all the best!


Techno


----------



## Redeye

Technoviking said:
			
		

> If you can ruck with weight beyond the BFT weight, and if you can do level 9 on the express, and 10k in 50 mins, you should have no issues at all.  Physically, anyway.  The main obstacle I find with candidates is their psychological barriers.  We have all faced them, and we have all needed help getting past them.  You already have the basics down, I assume (the soldier skills), which should put you in a good position.
> 
> I wish you all the best!
> 
> 
> Techno



That's exactly it.  I'm a _terrible_ runner.  I have screwed up feet from an old injury that I didn't deal with properly (harsh lesson learned) that makes it not at all fun - though I'm trying to improve at it.  However, I can throw on a ruck and get on with the job reasonably well.  On my DP1.1 there was a wide swath of fitness levels - but psychology plays a huge role too.  What I learned is that my body will generally speaking do a heck of a lot more than my brain thinks it can, as long as I have the mental tenacity to push for it.  The people who had the most difficulty on the course were those, regardless of fitness, who couldn't find that edge to keep pushing.  That said, fitness matters, and if you're not committed to working to constantly improve that, you're in for a world of hurt.

The one thing that explains it well is this - there's morning PT every day in garrison, but at night, you'll find a good chunk of the DP1.1 candidates in the gym or running or doing something as well, not because they "have" to, but because they know it will help.

The quote in my signature line was my "mantra" through the course.  It happened to be my high school's motto, and is about the only thing I really liked about the school and kept with me.  It literally translates as "no palms without dust" - coming from the Gladiator days, where in order to walk on the palm frond-covered path out of the arena in triumph, you first had to get dirty.


----------



## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hello All
> If you read my profile, you will note that I am an Infantry Officer, and that I am currently at the Infantry School.  I am putting creating this topic as a helpful note for you people who wish to be Infantry Officers.
> 
> Bottom Line Up Front: The infantry is one of the toughest trades you could join.  To be an infantry officer is probably one of the toughest things you could train to do.  I say this from experience, having been an Infantryman before I became an Infantry Officer.  Because of this, if you are not in top physical shape, if you are not adverse to being out of communication with your family for extended periods of time, including no Facebook, no Army.ca, no iThings, then joining as an Infantry Officer is not for you.  Don't waste my time and apply to be an Infantry Officer.
> 
> I cannot say this enough: if you are not in top physical shape, do not join as an Infantry Officer in spite of what a recruiter may tell you.  We will NOT get you into shape: you must arrive ready to conduct the training, no matter if you are a regular officer candidate or a reserve officer candidate.  To illustrate, I will outline the training system here at the Infantry School.
> 
> First, you will have to complete a course called BMOQ-L.  This is a ten-week army-level course, and one of the prerequisites is to be fit in accordance with CF standards.  This means you will have to complete what is called the Expres Test on day one.  (Please note that "Expres" is spelled correctly).  If you fail this, you will go to what is called a PRB, where the commandant of the school will determine your future.  Most likely, he will offer you coaching on the technique of the test, as well as to illuminate to you his philosophy on physical fitness training.  At this point, I would like to emphasise one example of a candidate who failed the Expres Test on day one.  He was coached, and then passed his retest two days later, gaining an exemption level (read: excellent) level.  He failed because of his technique, not because he wasn't fit.  So, during this ten-week course, which has a mix of garrison and field training, you will be challenged, but nothing like that expected of an infantry officer.  As well, you will be required to complete what we call the BFT or LFCPFS.
> 
> Once this course is done, you will have to complete the next course, which is called IODP 1.1. This is a dismounted infantry platoon commander's course.  It is 14 weeks long, and one prerequisite is to be fit in accordance with army standards.  This means that you will have to complete the LFCPFS during the first two weeks of the course (normally on day two or three).  If you fail this test, you will proceed to a PRB and most likely offered a retest.  But I must warn you: this test is an ARMY level physical fitness test, which applies to all army trades.  Naturally, as an infantry officer, we will expect you to excel at this test.
> 
> The course itself is in what I would term as three parts.  The first is a weapons stage, in which you learn the employment of the platoon weapons.  The next is what I would call the field phase, in which you learn offensive and defensive operations, patrolling and then full spectrum operations.  Finally, there is what I would call the Field Firing phase, in which you learn the ins and outs of setting up and running field ranges.
> 
> The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.  You will be in survival mode in the field phase, and incapable of demonstrating the ability to lead others in battle.
> 
> The attrition rate for this course, for all reasons, is roughly 50%.  Not all fail, but some hurt themselves (which is unavoidable in some cases) but most failures I have seen are due to mental fatigue.
> 
> If you are a reservist, completing IODP 1.1 will mean that you are done, and you can then go on to your reserve Regiment as a fully qualified infantry officer.  If you are a regular force candidate, then you have one more course to complete: IODP 1.2.
> 
> This course is actually three courses: Turret Operator, LAV APC Crew Commander, and then IODP 1.2 Mechanised Infantry Platoon Commander.  This course is to the mental what the IODP 1.1 is to the physical.  No longer will you have to worry about your platoon moving at the pace of a walking man, but now you will be going in excess of 50 KMH, cross country, and have to consider assets external to the platoon (tanks, artillery, engineers, etc).  Fitness is vital in this course as well, but considering that IODP 1.1 weeds out the weak, those who make it this far have the requisite level of fitness.  Still, the past two courses have seen abnormally high failure rates.  Some just can't make the mental leap to having to consider several square kilometres at once, as they move about the battlespace.  You need to be an agile thinker to be successful.
> 
> 
> So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.



I can't think of anything that's more true than the above statement.


----------



## Muttenthaler

Pusser said:
			
		

> I've always felt that being calm in the storm is an admirable trait and should be encouraged.  Unfortunately, many in the Navy don't seem to agree.  In many people's view if you're not running around screaming direction, you're not leading.  This has always driven me nuts.  I grew tired of being dumped on for NOT panicking.



I believe that there's a time and a place for everything. There are situations where it might be necessary to jump into a problem headfirst and react to things as they come, because it could save precious time and by extension, lives. In order to be effective at this method, you must detach yourself from your environment and become objective, keeping a level balance of information input and quick decision-making. There are also situations that ALLOW you to relax long enough to organize a "plan of attack" and make the victory over your obstacle easy. Knowing the difference is key, and could mean everything when it comes down to getting your men out alive, or in bodybags.

I was infantry for 7 years as an NCM, and I almost put Infantry down on my ROTP application as my first choice, but other resposibilities are keeping me in my trade. The biggest problem I faced as an NCM was not having leadership that understood the psychology of their position. It is paramount to be able to see the "big picture" in any situation, and understand the purpose and consequence of your decisions. The second-biggest problem I had was not having leadership that was physically fit.

A leader, in any trade, is not a leader if they are not leading by example.

Thanks for listening to my rant.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hello All
> If you read my profile, you will note that I am an Infantry Officer, and that I am currently at the Infantry School.  I am putting creating this topic as a helpful note for you people who wish to be Infantry Officers.
> 
> Bottom Line Up Front: The infantry is one of the toughest trades you could join.  To be an infantry officer is probably one of the toughest things you could train to do.  I say this from experience, having been an Infantryman before I became an Infantry Officer.  Because of this, if you are not in top physical shape, if you are not adverse to being out of communication with your family for extended periods of time, including no Facebook, no Army.ca, no iThings, then joining as an Infantry Officer is not for you.  Don't waste my time and apply to be an Infantry Officer.
> 
> I cannot say this enough: if you are not in top physical shape, do not join as an Infantry Officer in spite of what a recruiter may tell you.  We will NOT get you into shape: you must arrive ready to conduct the training, no matter if you are a regular officer candidate or a reserve officer candidate.  To illustrate, I will outline the training system here at the Infantry School.
> 
> First, you will have to complete a course called BMOQ-L.  This is a ten-week army-level course, and one of the prerequisites is to be fit in accordance with CF standards.  This means you will have to complete what is called the Expres Test on day one.  (Please note that "Expres" is spelled correctly).  If you fail this, you will go to what is called a PRB, where the commandant of the school will determine your future.  Most likely, he will offer you coaching on the technique of the test, as well as to illuminate to you his philosophy on physical fitness training.  At this point, I would like to emphasise one example of a candidate who failed the Expres Test on day one.  He was coached, and then passed his retest two days later, gaining an exemption level (read: excellent) level.  He failed because of his technique, not because he wasn't fit.  So, during this ten-week course, which has a mix of garrison and field training, you will be challenged, but nothing like that expected of an infantry officer.  As well, you will be required to complete what we call the BFT or LFCPFS.
> 
> Once this course is done, you will have to complete the next course, which is called IODP 1.1. This is a dismounted infantry platoon commander's course.  It is 14 weeks long, and one prerequisite is to be fit in accordance with army standards.  This means that you will have to complete the LFCPFS during the first two weeks of the course (normally on day two or three).  If you fail this test, you will proceed to a PRB and most likely offered a retest.  But I must warn you: this test is an ARMY level physical fitness test, which applies to all army trades.  Naturally, as an infantry officer, we will expect you to excel at this test.
> 
> The course itself is in what I would term as three parts.  The first is a weapons stage, in which you learn the employment of the platoon weapons.  The next is what I would call the field phase, in which you learn offensive and defensive operations, patrolling and then full spectrum operations.  Finally, there is what I would call the Field Firing phase, in which you learn the ins and outs of setting up and running field ranges.
> 
> The field phase is intense.  If you think that you cannot bear to carry upwards of 60 pounds in all weather, day and night, for hours at a time, and then complete complex mental tasks with little sleep or food, then again, do not waste my time: don't join.  You will be in survival mode in the field phase, and incapable of demonstrating the ability to lead others in battle.
> 
> The attrition rate for this course, for all reasons, is roughly 50%.  Not all fail, but some hurt themselves (which is unavoidable in some cases) but most failures I have seen are due to mental fatigue.
> 
> If you are a reservist, completing IODP 1.1 will mean that you are done, and you can then go on to your reserve Regiment as a fully qualified infantry officer.  If you are a regular force candidate, then you have one more course to complete: IODP 1.2.
> 
> This course is actually three courses: Turret Operator, LAV APC Crew Commander, and then IODP 1.2 Mechanised Infantry Platoon Commander.  This course is to the mental what the IODP 1.1 is to the physical.  No longer will you have to worry about your platoon moving at the pace of a walking man, but now you will be going in excess of 50 KMH, cross country, and have to consider assets external to the platoon (tanks, artillery, engineers, etc).  Fitness is vital in this course as well, but considering that IODP 1.1 weeds out the weak, those who make it this far have the requisite level of fitness.  Still, the past two courses have seen abnormally high failure rates.  Some just can't make the mental leap to having to consider several square kilometres at once, as they move about the battlespace.  You need to be an agile thinker to be successful.
> 
> 
> So, in conclusion, if you have issues at home (spouse, significant other, family or otherwise), don't waste my time.  If you are not in top physical shape, don't waste my time.  If you cannot stand to be incommunicado for extended periods of time, don't waste my time.  If you have no issues, are in top shape, and can think on your feet and are agressive, a go-getter and are willing to accept and share risk of injury or death, then don't hesitate: join the infantry.  I cannot stress enough that this isn't a job: it's a vocation, a calling.  If you aren't willing to sacrifice personal comfort for this vocation, then again, I cannot say it enough: don't waste my time.  Our Infantrymen deserve only the best, and if you can't be the best for them, then this vocation isn't for you.



So how did it work out last summer TV? Did people pay heed to the friendly advice?


----------



## vonGarvin

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> So how did it work out last summer TV? Did people pay heed to the friendly advice?


The attrition rate was much lower this year.  It was refreshing.


----------



## Journeyman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> So how did it work out last summer TV? Did people pay heed to the friendly advice?
> 
> 
> 
> The attrition rate was much lower this year.  It was refreshing.
Click to expand...

It sounds like the standards have dropped.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> The attrition rate was much lower this year.  It was refreshing.



We had one young lad come back who actually said that, although it was still quite tough, he'd actually learned alot. Of course the CO and I regaled him with horror stories from when we went through, because of course we were tougher when we were his age. Then I thought "Hey, the little bugger probably learned more than I did!".


----------



## Stefan_S

What Qualifies for top Physical Shape?


----------



## vonGarvin

Stefan_S said:
			
		

> What Qualifies for top Physical Shape?


Good aerobic, anaerobic and strength.  You have to run, sprint and carry a whack load of "stuff" and the key to this all is to be able to mentally endure hardship.

The course (DP 1.1, the dismounted platoon commander course) has undergone a bit of a make-over recently.  _What _ is being taught hasn't change.  _How _ it is being taught has.  

The course is still 13 weeks in length, but no longer is it in "modules".  

First you will be instructed on how to operate the platoon support weapons.  This is about 2 weeks.  

Next you will be qualified to be a range safety officer on field firing ranges.  This is about 2 weeks as well.

After this, you will learn the theory of operations: defensive, offensive and patrolling.  This will be about 2 weeks (please note: the times are approximate).

During this roughly 6 week period, you will undergo intense physical training (PT) in garrison, all with a view to prepare you for the field.  It culminates with the BFT.  (The course that is underway right now just did their BFT without a single issue.  This is the first time this has happened in quite a while).

The final roughly seven weeks consists of a variety of field exercises.  Some are "Battle Schools" where the candidates move to the "walk" phase (of crawl - walk - run).  They will go through the demonstration and practice of the various operations (defensive, offensive and patrolling).  The other exercises are the run phase, where candidates will go roughly 24/7 for about a week and a bit for each ex.  Following a long-ish weekend to recharge and reset, they will go into the next.

The key to remember is that by the end of the course, you will have traversed roughly 400 km (or so) with rucksacks.  It sounds like a lot (and it is), but it is roughly 10-15 km at a time.  

As the course continues, we are adapting the schedule in order to keep the course "honest" and attempt to strike a balance between instructing people and challenging them.  Our soldiers, their future subordinates, deserve no less.


----------



## ballz

Technoviking said:
			
		

> After this, you will learn the theory of operations: defensive, offensive and patrolling.  This will be about 2 weeks (please note: the times are approximate).



~2 weeks (10 training days?) instead of 6 training days... I am sure this will be a very welcomed change amongst me and my peers.



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> The final roughly seven weeks consists of a variety of field exercises.  Some are "Battle Schools" where the candidates move to the "walk" phase (of crawl - walk - run).  They will go through the demonstration and practice of the various operations (defensive, offensive and patrolling).  The other exercises are the run phase, where candidates will go roughly 24/7 for about a week and a bit for each ex.  Following a long-ish weekend to recharge and reset, they will go into the next.



Does this change of format translate into less, more, or about the same amount of learning time (I am talking about Battle School, TEWTS, etc, as opposed to the actual FTX*) before you actually get hard-assessed? Does it affect the method that you are assessed(in other words, are there more opportunities to be evaluated in the field in a leadership position, as opposed to TEWTs, etc). Just wondering if you could comment on how it affected / changed the whole "TEWTs vs FTX" evaluations?

*While I realize that the FTXs are also very important "learning time" and for getting experience, they are also where you are getting evaluated as a leader. I am asking about learning time before the FTX for that reason.

Thanks again TV


----------



## daftandbarmy

Stefan_S said:
			
		

> What Qualifies for top Physical Shape?



Being able to fit into your mess kit one year following the end of your course  ;D


----------



## vonGarvin

ballz said:
			
		

> Does this change of format translate into less, more, or about the same amount of learning time (I am talking about Battle School, TEWTS, etc, as opposed to the actual FTX*) before you actually get hard-assessed?


The training time hasn't changed at all;however, to illustrate the change, let me use the example of the defensive.  Previously, you would learn it, go the field, and do it.  But you have yet to learn patrolling or offensive operations.  So, you cannot do the first or third phase of defensive operations (covering force battle, and countermoves).  So, you dig in, watch your arc, blow off ammo, and that's that.  

Now, in the theory, you will learn all phases, and then practice the offensive and patrolling first (knowing enough of the defensive to only be dangerous).  Once you do defensive, you will be able to do the whole thing.


			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Does it affect the method that you are assessed(in other words, are there more opportunities to be evaluated in the field in a leadership position, as opposed to TEWTs, etc). Just wondering if you could comment on how it affected / changed the whole "TEWTs vs FTX" evaluations?


Unfortunately, no.  The assessment plan is still in the TP, so there are still TEWTs; however, leadership is assessed throughout, and now there will be more opportunities for field leadership.


			
				ballz said:
			
		

> *While I realize that the FTXs are also very important "learning time" and for getting experience, they are also where you are getting evaluated as a leader. I am asking about learning time before the FTX for that reason.
> 
> Thanks again TV


Yes, there is more time to actually learn prior to being assessed in a role.  And more practice time before being assessed as well.  For example, today they were doing walk-throughs of attacks on the sports field following theory lessons on platoon attacks.  They don't hit the battleschool phase (eg: practice) until the latter part of next week.  By then, they will have walked through offensive, defensive and patrolling, and then will go out and practice at a quicker pace, with plenty of time for AARs, time for assessors to do more coaching/helping/prodding.  The hope is that all will learn better from collective errors prior to the assessment sheets coming out.


----------



## whitford-a18

Hi,
I have a question regarding education. It states that you need a university degree to qualify to become an infantry officer. I currently am in the 3-yr degree for criminal justice at the University of Winnipeg. Is a 3-yr degree qualify me are do i need to have a 4-yr degree?


----------



## dangles

whitford-a18 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> I have a question regarding education. It states that you need a university degree to qualify to become an infantry officer. I currently am in the 3-yr degree for criminal justice at the University of Winnipeg. Is a 3-yr degree qualify me are do i need to have a 4-yr degree?



As long as it a recognized degree program you will be eligible, although to the best of my knowledge I think that 4-year degree's are preferred and as such you may have a hard time with selection.


----------



## ballz

whitford-a18 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> I have a question regarding education. It states that you need a university degree to qualify to become an infantry officer. I currently am in the 3-yr degree for criminal justice at the University of Winnipeg. Is a 3-yr degree qualify me are do i need to have a 4-yr degree?



By the looks of the UofWinnipeg's website, you're doing a Bachelor of Arts, and your major is Criminal Justice, correct?


----------



## estoguy

dangles said:
			
		

> As long as it a recognized degree program you will be eligible, although to the best of my knowledge I think that 4-year degree's are preferred and as such you may have a hard time with selection.



I agree... if you can get a 4 year honours degree, do it.  

It makes a difference in a lot of fields.  I'm a supply teacher at the moment, and if you are a full time teacher, there is a significant difference in pay between someone with a 3-year general degree and a B.Ed and someone who has the 4-year plus B.Ed.

Don't sell yourself short on your education.


----------



## estoguy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Now, in the theory, you will learn all phases, and then practice the offensive and patrolling first (knowing enough of the defensive to only be dangerous).  Once you do defensive, you will be able to do the whole thing.Unfortunately, no.  The assessment plan is still in the TP, so there are still TEWTs; however, leadership is assessed throughout, and now there will be more opportunities for field leadership.Yes, there is more time to actually learn prior to being assessed in a role.  And more practice time before being assessed as well.



For those of us interested in a career as an infantry officer, who don't know all the lingo yet, what is involved in a TEWT?  Looking up the term I discovered it meant Tactical Exercise Without Troops.  From the wording, I'm going on a literal translation guessing its an exercise done by the officers without troops being involved?  Or have I over-simplified it?  ???

Thanks!


----------



## dangerboy

estoguy said:
			
		

> For those of us interested in a career as an infantry officer, who don't know all the lingo yet, what is involved in a TEWT?  Looking up the term I discovered it meant Tactical Exercise Without Troops.  From the wording, I'm going on a literal translation guessing its an exercise done by the officers without troops being involved?  Or have I over-simplified it?  ???
> 
> Thanks!



That is it, an example of one would be a defensive TEWT.  On this you would plan how you would lay out position, give orders but would not actually dig.


----------



## StevePoole

If you fail the training before you graduate what happens then? Are you placed with the ncm's? Also if you enroll as an ncm is there a possibility to take an officer course later down the road, being that you have the requirements?


----------



## lethalLemon

StevePoole said:
			
		

> If you fail the training before you graduate what happens then? Are you placed with the ncm's? Also if you enroll as an ncm is there a possibility to take an officer course later down the road, being that you have the requirements?



Well... if you fail (which they try to make sure you don't unless you're a complete sh*tpump; but also, other circumstances could be a result) you'll be re-coursed. If you fail again. You're sent home. Released.

However as an officer you take the training in between the semesters/years of your degree program (whether it is done at a Civilian University or the RMC), so the CF is more worried about you failing the academic portion. Why? Because that's thousands of dollars of free room-and-board, food, uniform, pay cheque, and tuition that they've just wasted and could have used for a more suitable and responsible candidate. In my opinion, if you have to ask what happens if you fail - then you need to do some more work before considering this career path. 

There's no other opinion in this career field (Canadian Forces) than doing your best.


----------



## vonGarvin

StevePoole said:
			
		

> If you fail the training before you graduate what happens then? Are you placed with the ncm's? Also if you enroll as an ncm is there a possibility to take an officer course later down the road, being that you have the requirements?


To set the record straight, if you are removed from training for any reason, it is only the commandant of the infantry school who will decide to cease your training.  The reasons for ceasing your training include:
Performance;
Voluntary Withdrawal; and
Medical.

(Remember, if you withdraw voluntarily, it is still the commandant who will either grant or not grant your request).  

No matter the reason for ceasing your training, the commandant will make one of several recommendations to your chain of command.  These include:
Recourse;
Revert to NCM;
Compulsary Occupational Transfer; and
Release from the CF.

The most common recommendation is recourse.  The least common is reversion to NCM (Please note that until recently, this option was only available to officer cadets who failed training.  This has been changed to any candidate on DP 1.1 or DP 1.2).


----------



## Pusser

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Well... if you fail (which they try to make sure you don't unless you're a complete sh*tpump; but also, other circumstances could be a result) you'll be re-coursed. If you fail again. You're sent home. Released.
> 
> However as an officer you take the training in between the semesters/years of your degree program (whether it is done at a Civilian University or the RMC), so the CF is more worried about you failing the academic portion. Why? Because that's thousands of dollars of free room-and-board, food, uniform, pay cheque, and tuition that they've just wasted and could have used for a more suitable and responsible candidate. In my opinion, if you have to ask what happens if you fail - then you need to do some more work before considering this career path.
> 
> There's no other opinion in this career field (Canadian Forces) than doing your best.



NB: "board" means food, mentioning food in addition to "room and board" is redundant.  

Except under specific circumstances, CF members are generally not provided with free room and board and when it is provided, it is a pretty small consideration.


----------



## StevePoole

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Well... if you fail (which they try to make sure you don't unless you're a complete sh*tpump; but also, other circumstances could be a result) you'll be re-coursed. If you fail again. You're sent home. Released.
> 
> However as an officer you take the training in between the semesters/years of your degree program (whether it is done at a Civilian University or the RMC), so the CF is more worried about you failing the academic portion. Why? Because that's thousands of dollars of free room-and-board, food, uniform, pay cheque, and tuition that they've just wasted and could have used for a more suitable and responsible candidate. In my opinion, if you have to ask what happens if you fail - then you need to do some more work before considering this career path.
> 
> There's no other opinion in this career field (Canadian Forces) than doing your best.



Well I finishing my last year of university this spring so I will already have that. I was merely asking what happens if you fail just to know. Its no challenge Im afraid to take.


----------



## lethalLemon

Pusser said:
			
		

> NB: "board" means food, mentioning food in addition to "room and board" is redundant.
> 
> Except under specific circumstances, CF members are generally not provided with free room and board and when it is provided, it is a pretty small consideration.



"Greatly subsidized"

Better?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Heads up all....

TV, what test do they do at Gagetown that requires them to perform pushups?

"A short note to let you know that 2Lt XYZ has ceased trg and will be RTU. 

He was EXPRES tested by PSP and failed to meet the minimum requirement for push-ups.  I believe it was more form than strength per se.

Previously, we would have coached him and retested 24 hrs later.  However, a recent CF Grievance Authority decision found the Inf Sch in violation of the CF physical fitness DAOD.  Namely, we can't retest before following the remedial measures outlined in the DAOD.  As he is being RTU, you will have to look after the Initial Counselling and the remedial PT program at your end.

If you decide to send him back this summer, I would recommend that he complete either the EXPRES or BFT at unit level before arriving.  If the member has a valid PT result, we do not retest them here at the School (another result of the CFGA decision)."


----------



## vonGarvin

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Heads up all....
> 
> TV, what test do they do at Gagetown that requires them to perform pushups?
> 
> "A short note to let you know that 2Lt XYZ has ceased trg and will be RTU.
> 
> He was EXPRES tested by PSP and failed to meet the minimum requirement for push-ups.  I believe it was more form than strength per se.
> 
> Previously, we would have coached him and retested 24 hrs later.  However, a recent CF Grievance Authority decision found the Inf Sch in violation of the CF physical fitness DAOD.  Namely, we can't retest before following the remedial measures outlined in the DAOD.  As he is being RTU, you will have to look after the Initial Counselling and the remedial PT program at your end.
> 
> If you decide to send him back this summer, I would recommend that he complete either the EXPRES or BFT at unit level before arriving.  If the member has a valid PT result, we do not retest them here at the School (another result of the CFGA decision)."



I cannot reply because of the taste in my mouth left there from the CFGA decision, but suffice it to say "I don't know..."

[/rant]


----------



## dangerboy

I wonder what impact this will have on other training centres.  I know in Wainwright if a pers fails an express test, we re-test them in a couple of weeks and the majority of time they pass the re-test, but like CTC the courses are not long enough to fully comply with the remedial measures.


----------



## Pusser

This approach to the ExPres Test still baffles me.  There is a huge difference between having an "off" day and clutching one's chest and passing out during the test.  They should be treated differently, but they are not.  Both require a three month waiting period before re-attempting.  Ridiculous!

Surely there is more to this story than we see here.  The only remedial action for failing the ExPres Test the *first* time is "come back in three months and try again."  Just out of curiosity, why is the Infantry School running the ExPres Test in the first place?  Why not just make a course prerequisite a valid ExPres Test result and stay out of that business altogether?


----------



## Wookilar

Pusser said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, why is the Infantry School running the ExPres Test in the first place?  Why not just make a course prerequisite a valid ExPres Test result and stay out of that business altogether?



That is a CTC issue, not so much an Infantry School issue. It stems from an incident 2 years ago where a candidate on Ph3 BFT ended up with extreme heat stroke and experienced a loss of vital signs on way to hospital. Part of the fallout of the BOI was an ExPres test at the start of the course (which, of course, has nothing to do with the actual incident as the guy had never failed a PT test in 2 years, but we had to be seen to do something, but that is another thread all together. That BOI was a freakin trainwreck).

The Arty School, for example, does it day 1 of Ph3.

Wook


----------



## daftandbarmy

It's summer time... and the livin' is easy... (unless you're headed to Gagetown, of course)

Any cheerful, helpful advice for the fresh meat heading to the sausage machine this year?


----------



## ballz

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It's summer time... and the livin' is easy... (unless you're headed to Gagetown, of course)
> 
> Any cheerful, helpful advice for the fresh meat heading to the sausage machine this year?



Just made it out of the DP1.1 machine in one piece, feels pretty good to be done. This was my second attempt, last year I injured my leg at the end of the defensive. 

My advice to my course mates at the start of course was, and to the next batch of people going through this fall is "don't buy the hype."

It's a demanding course for sure, but there's so much hype around it that most people come in already defeated before they start, or they're just spinning and act stupid / do stupid things they wouldn't normally do. Also, you can really see people get caught up in the up's and down's of things going good and bad as well, because they're so hyped up for the course. Last year I was one of those people for sure, but after getting injured and having 9 months or more to reflect, I was able to come into it more level-headed this time around and the course was definitely easier for me.

Anyway, that's just my perspective.


----------



## ken.w2402

After reading through this extremely helpful thread, it’s pretty obvious one has to be in good shape before Phase III. Now, could someone help me gain an idea of the fitness level required for DP 1.1 in more specific, measurable terms?

To be honest, I’m only about to start BMOQ in a couple weeks and I do realize there are quite a few hurdles before even getting to Phase III, but I like to plan things out well in advance so please bear with me.

I, for instance, am rather “vertically limited” at 5’7”, weigh 158lbs (mostly muscle weight; very little body fat). I can bench 200 lbs, squat 250 and deadlift 295. This past summer, I also attempted to simulate the 13km forced march by packing up 55lbs and was able to complete it in roughly 2 hours 20 min (in heavily trafficked downtown Montreal with way too many beautiful female distractions, that is). Now, what’s been distressing me lately is my extremely slow progress cardio-wise. Nagging shin splints have prevented me from running regularly for the past couple months and I’ve been ordered by my doc to not run until BMOQ (starting this coming October 27th). 

While passing the EXPRES with its meager level 6 in the 20MSR shouldn’t be a problem, this obviously isn’t enough for Phase III. So say, how much weight should I be able to bench press, squat etc. and more importantly, what level should I aim to reach in the 20m shuttle run before getting to DP 1.1? I’m currently trying to formulate training plans for the months I’ll be spending in PAT platoons after BMOQ and BMOQ-L, so any feedback would be highly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken


----------



## Redeye

In basic terms no one really cares what stage you get to on ExPres. No one cares how much you can lift, either. Being able to hump long distances and get through the field stage is what actually matters, though, the fitter you are the easier it is to stay focused and alert during the classroom stages as well, so it'll be overall easier to pick up the material. Just continuously work at it, and you'll be fine. It's mental tenacity coupled with fitness that matters.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Redeye said:
			
		

> It's mental tenacity coupled with fitness that matters.



Exactly right.  Bottom line is that you just have to be able to meet every challenge....every time.  That comes from your head and heart as much as it does from your cardio....


----------



## ken.w2402

Redeye said:
			
		

> In basic terms no one really cares what stage you get to on ExPres. No one cares how much you can lift, either. Being able to hump long distances and get through the field stage is what actually matters, though, the fitter you are the easier it is to stay focused and alert during the classroom stages as well, so it'll be overall easier to pick up the material. Just continuously work at it, and you'll be fine. It's mental tenacity coupled with fitness that matters.





			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Exactly right.  Bottom line is that you just have to be able to meet every challenge....every time.  That comes from your head and heart as much as it does from your cardio....



I suppose the only way to really find out is to dive in head first. Much obliged for your feedback regardless


----------



## Redeye

ken.w2402 said:
			
		

> I suppose the only way to really find out is to dive in head first. Much obliged for your feedback regardless



Yep. Do, or do not. There is no try.


----------



## vonGarvin

Redeye said:
			
		

> Yep. Do, or do not. There is no try.


----------



## Willing To Learn

This is very helpful and I'm learning lots I plan on getting ready now 2 years away from RMC even but whats life look like for infantry officers. I was hoping to get into close protection and was told I can only do this through Infantry.


----------



## dangerboy

Willing To Learn said:
			
		

> I was hoping to get into close protection and was told I can only do this through Infantry.



Whoever told you this was wrong, also I would not plan your career on a very small specialty.  I would plan it on if you would enjoy the general duties as it is very hard to get in the specialty positions and the last thing you want is to be doing a job you hate because you did not get selected for the specialty position.


----------



## MikeL

Like dangerboy said,  Close Protection is open to all trades; it isn't a Infantry only specialty.

As well,  looking at the info regarding CP there are no openings for Officers,  only NCMs.


> 1. THE CP QUALIFICATION IS OPEN TO ALL CF MEMBERS WHO MEET THE FOLLOWING PRE-REQUISITES FOR CP TRG AND EMPLOYMENT:
> A. REG OR RES F MBR OF THE RANK OF CPL TO SGT
> B. MOS ID QUALIFIED


----------



## Journeyman

I couldn't help it; it _had_ to be posted.    >


----------



## ken.w2402

Here's an idea: why not come up with a Call of Duty that teaches you how to spend days and nights typing up CF98's and PDRs... probably more accurate than learning about "knifing, going prone and spraying" haha


----------



## ken.w2402

As a surviving candidate of the latest IODP 1.1, here are some scoops, tips and stats:

1) No more TEWT's: starting this year, TEWT's are no longer hard-assessed and are simply employed as teaching tools in helping us understand the estimate process.  Instead, assessments have become purely practical; in addition to leading a hasty attack as per the old course format, EVERY candidate is now expected to successfully lead a fighting patrol (raid, ambush, deliberate attack or woods clearing, randomly assigned by the evaluating staff) and a defensive task (occupation, routine, relief in place or withdrawal).

2) Tips: cut down on gym time and start rucking; about a quarter of candidates got kicked out in the first couple weeks simply due to the fact they couldn't keep up during morning ruck marches.  Many of them were seemingly well-prepared and fit to appear on fitness magazine covers, but ended up being practically useless when loaded down with radios and platoon weapons.  Focus on cardio and muscle endurance, especially in the legs and the back.  Also, try fattening up while you can, you WILL lose it all throughout the course.

3) Stats: the course started with approximately 120 candidates on 26 May 2014, less than 50 are currently remaining on week 11 out of 12.  Most (myself included) have already passed all their assessments (hasty, patrol and defensive), with the remaining few expected to pass theirs assessments during the Culmination Exercice in the last week of the course.

Good luck!


----------



## vonGarvin

kw2402 said:
			
		

> As a surviving candidate of the latest IODP 1.1, here are some scoops, tips and stats:
> 
> 1) No more TEWT's: starting this year, TEWT's are no longer hard-assessed and are simply employed as teaching tools in helping us understand the estimate process.  Instead, assessments have become purely practical; in addition to leading a hasty attack as per the old course format, EVERY candidate is now expected to successfully lead a fighting patrol (raid, ambush, deliberate attack or woods clearing, randomly assigned by the evaluating staff) and a defensive task (occupation, routine, relief in place or withdrawal).
> 
> 2) Tips: cut down on gym time and start rucking; about a quarter of candidates got kicked out in the first couple weeks simply due to the fact they couldn't keep up during morning ruck marches.  Many of them were seemingly well-prepared and fit to appear on fitness magazine covers, but ended up being practically useless when loaded down with radios and platoon weapons.  Focus on cardio and muscle endurance, especially in the legs and the back.  Also, try fattening up while you can, you WILL lose it all throughout the course.
> 
> 3) Stats: the course started with approximately 120 candidates on 26 May 2014, less than 50 are currently remaining on week 11 out of 12.  Most (myself included) have already passed all their assessments (hasty, patrol and defensive), with the remaining few expected to pass theirs assessments during the Culmination Exercice in the last week of the course.
> 
> Good luck!



Congratulations on making it through.  And these are great points, especially about the *type* of fitness required to endure.


----------



## ballz

Good to see they found a way to get rid of TEWTs as assessment tools, and even better to see they have managed to get back to having every candidate actually lead missions as their hard assessments.

LCol Oberwarth will leave the Inf School in a good position for the next CO.


----------



## KerryBlue

ballz said:
			
		

> LCol Oberwarth will leave the Inf School in a good position for the next CO.



Is this the same Oberwarth who was a Captain in the Truth Duty Valor Series on Pathfinders, and a Major when on the show Combat School?


----------



## vonGarvin

KerryBlue said:
			
		

> Is this the same Oberwarth who was a Captain in the Truth Duty Valor Series on Pathfinders, and a Major when on the show Combat School?



Yes he is.


----------



## primogen

I'm studying engineering currently. After graduation I'd like to give this a shot. Is there any preferred degree that the caf expect infantry officer candidates to have?


----------



## Infanteer

kw2402 said:
			
		

> As a surviving candidate of the latest IODP 1.1, here are some scoops, tips and stats:
> 
> 1) No more TEWT's: starting this year, TEWT's are no longer hard-assessed and are simply employed as teaching tools in helping us understand the estimate process.  Instead, assessments have become purely practical; in addition to leading a hasty attack as per the old course format, EVERY candidate is now expected to successfully lead a fighting patrol (raid, ambush, deliberate attack or woods clearing, randomly assigned by the evaluating staff) and a defensive task (occupation, routine, relief in place or withdrawal).



Thank goodness we've abandoned that silly idea and went back to practical assessments.


----------



## LSimard

I know this question can seem stupid, but what do you mean by excellent physical shape? I can run long distances, I can do a lot of push up, I go swimming every week, I go to gym every week, but is it enought? How can I know if my physical shape is good enought for being an infantry officer? Thank you sir!


----------



## ballz

I was the same as you. I wanted numbers to quantify what "excellent fitness" meant.

For running, at the end of DP1.2 we did the CO's Challenge or whatever... Basically the goals were...

5km run in <23 min
>45 pushups in 2 minutes
>100 situps in 4 minutes

Almost all achieved all three, some smashed right past all three. The 5km run varied from about 19 min - 23 min with a few outliers going up to 25 and 26 minutes. We had been bag-driven for almost 8 months straight (13 weeks for DP1.1, 3 weeks for summer leave, 13 weeks for DP1.2) so we weren't in as good of physical condition as when we showed up for DP1.1.

For ruck marching, prior to DP1.1 me and a friend who were going on the course rucked once or twice a week (anymore with heavy weight is probably a great way to injure yourself permanently) and worked ourselves up to 80 lbs for 14km, and 100 lbs for 8km. This was above what most did prior to course ruck march wise, but I believe it served us well to slowly build ourselves up to that kind of weight / distance. There will be no 35 lb rucks on DP1.1.


----------



## Nevermore093

Hey guys, 

I'm planning to join the military, one of the positions I know I have a strong potential for is the position of Infantry Officer.

This is a completely serious question. Please be honest with me. I am Asian. How does the majority of Canadian soldiers feel about Asians in the military, or as their superior? I've worked in a lot of companies as a team leader or lead hand and, generally, at first, people are reluctant to work with or respect me because I am young, and I am Asian. If this sort of thinking happens when I am posted on a mission and those under my command are hesitant to obey my orders, I rather not risk it and start thinking about an entirely different position altogether.

I have no doubt I can prove myself worthy of the position as I am in top shape. I run 4 miles everyday with ease, can do 100 pushups of whatever type easily combined with HIIT training and stamina training. I work 7 days a week, sometimes double shifts. I have never met anyone who has more physical endurance than myself in the workplace and outside of it. I have been the hardest and efficient worker in every company I have worked with (11 companies), acknowledged by my superiors. My ability to train and lead others has always been praiseworthy as I am easy to understand and straightforward. However, I will not risk being an officer if people are hesitant to obey me because of my age and race. I may just apply for infantry soldier. 

Thanks, 
Nevermore093


----------



## dimsum

Nevermore093 said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm planning to join the military, one of the positions I know I have a strong potential for is the position of Infantry Officer.
> 
> This is a completely serious question. Please be honest with me. I am Asian. How does the majority of Canadian soldiers feel about Asians in the military, or as their superior? I've worked in a lot of companies as a team leader or lead hand and, generally, at first, people are reluctant to work with or respect me because I am young, and I am Asian. If this sort of thinking happens when I am posted on a mission and those under my command are hesitant to obey my orders, I rather not risk it and start thinking about an entirely different position altogether.



I'm Asian, and while I'm not in the Infantry, I believe what I'm saying applies throughout the CAF.  I'll put hand on heart and say that the military is one of the few places where merit and attitude will trump looks/gender/sexual orientation/race/age.  I have never been treated differently because I was Asian, unless it was for a good reason (e.g. liaison officer jobs with foreign military members of my ethnicity, etc.)

If you're a good leader (which will be decided by your subordinates/superiors) and a team player, you'll earn respect - simple as that.  That being said, the military is not for folks who have thin skins.


----------



## vonGarvin

I can echo the above. There will be some who may at first question you due to youth, but that goes quickly.  I mean, "what does he know? He looks like he's 12, and officer school is a piece of cake..."


So, in short, don't worry about it.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Nevermore093 said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm planning to join the military, one of the positions I know I have a strong potential for is the position of Infantry Officer.
> 
> This is a completely serious question. Please be honest with me. I am Asian. How does the majority of Canadian soldiers feel about Asians in the military, or as their superior? I've worked in a lot of companies as a team leader or lead hand and, generally, at first, people are reluctant to work with or respect me because I am young, and I am Asian. If this sort of thinking happens when I am posted on a mission and those under my command are hesitant to obey my orders, I rather not risk it and start thinking about an entirely different position altogether.
> 
> I have no doubt I can prove myself worthy of the position as I am in top shape. I run 4 miles everyday with ease, can do 100 pushups of whatever type easily combined with HIIT training and stamina training. I work 7 days a week, sometimes double shifts. I have never met anyone who has more physical endurance than myself in the workplace and outside of it. I have been the hardest and efficient worker in every company I have worked with (11 companies), acknowledged by my superiors. My ability to train and lead others has always been praiseworthy as I am easy to understand and straightforward. However, I will not risk being an officer if people are hesitant to obey me because of my age and race. I may just apply for infantry soldier.
> 
> Thanks,
> Nevermore093


Nevermore093, Dimsum and Techniviking speak the truth!  A good friend of mine who at one point was also my commander is Asian.  He is an outstanding leader who is well respected by both his superiors and subordinates alike.  Nobody will care that you are Asian, only that you can do the job and do it well!

Royaldrew
Infantry Officer and Proud Member of the Royal Canadian Regiment!



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> I can echo the above. There will be some who may at first question you due to youth, but that goes quickly.  I mean, "what does he know? He looks like he's 12, and officer school is a piece of cake..."
> 
> 
> So, in short, don't worry about it.



This line of thinking is usually corrected after the first platoon ruckmarch/run


----------



## daftandbarmy

We have two qualified, capable, Infantry Officers in my (infantry) regiment who come from south Asian backgrounds. 

They pick on me sometimes because I'm white, and old  ;D


----------



## ken.w2402

I'm an Asian Van Doo, go figure.

Long answer: there will occasionally be a-holes who will cast doubt on your abilities and suggest that you got your position thanks to affirmative action.  You might feel that you don't have the "luxury" of mediocrity - that you need to put in extra effort just to prove yourself worthy.  You can either complain about being unfairly treated, or harvest this as motivation for self-improvement.

Short answer: no, the vast majority of soldiers won't give a damn about your race.


----------



## crowbag

Great thread here guys. I'm in the midst of the recruiting process now as a DEO and it's nice to have some information beyond the standard DND recruiting site, which is very thin on the details of Infantry officer training after BMOQ. I'm really looking forward to getting amongst it. 

For now it's a game of "hurry up and wait." At least it's a good way to be re-introduced to the military, right? 

Cheers


----------



## Evad

I am about to head into regular force infantry. If I like it I may want to try and become an officer to make this into my career. 
What is the best way of going at this? I have minimal education atm (highschool) thus going into infantry. Would I be better to join the reserves get a degree and then apply to become an officer? If so, what type of degree should I get.
I am new to all of this and start basic in a couple of weeks. I heard not to even waste your time staying in while being a NCM to try and become an officer since they just pick people out of university first.


----------



## George Wallace

Evad said:
			
		

> I am about to head into regular force infantry. If I like it I may want to try and become an officer to make this into my career.
> What is the best way of going at this? I have minimal education atm (highschool) thus going into infantry. Would I be better to join the reserves get a degree and then apply to become an officer? If so, what type of degree should I get.
> I am new to all of this and start basic in a couple of weeks. I heard not to even waste your time staying in while being a NCM to try and become an officer since they just pick people out of university first.



This thread is five pages long, so far, and well worth the READ.

We have other threads that deal with life in the Reserves as an Infantryman, and options to go to university, as well as becoming an officer in the Reserves.

We have a whole section dedicated to RMC, and applicants wanting to become Regular Force officers through programs such as ROTP.  Other options are also discussed in that section.

You may also want to READ the threads that deal with Voluntary Release (VR) from the Regular Force, that some have contemplated in their desire to change Trade or Occupation.  

All you have to do is READ the many threads that address the questions that you have.  You will also find answers to questions that you have yet to think of.


----------



## ballz

Evad said:
			
		

> Would I be better to join the reserves get a degree and then apply to become an officer? If so, what type of degree should I get.



In short, I would say yes. If you want to try it out instead of committing to a bunch of obligatory service, I would say enrol in the PRes as an infantry soldier* whilst doing a degree. If you decide you want to become an Officer in the Reg Force, *given today's current climate and the forecasted needs in the infantry corps*, it should be fairly doable to Component Transfer to the Reg Force and start Inf O training.

As for what degree, none of them gives you a leg-up in becoming an Inf O, so do something you could see yourself doing / using if the military was not an option.

*I say infantry soldier because I wish I had more time working on basic soldiering skills. I find myself now as a LAV Captain, when there is nothing going on in the field, grabbing C9s / C6s / track & bolts for the cannon / radios / etc and refreshing my own basics, often having to grab the nearest troop to help. Want me to plan and execute a raid, no problem, but detail strip and re-assemble a C6? The skill fade is real and dramatic, and largely because we glossed over it in training and never touched it again...



			
				Evad said:
			
		

> I am new to all of this and start basic in a couple of weeks. I heard not to even waste your time staying in while being a NCM to try and become an officer since they just pick people out of university first.



If you're talking about trying to commission without a degree, then yes, it'll be a long time. There are some programs to allow people without a degree to get one and take a commission. UTPNCM is one of those and it is a competitive program for sure.


----------



## Evad

ballz said:
			
		

> In short, I would say yes. If you want to try it out instead of committing to a bunch of obligatory service, I would say enrol in the PRes as an infantry soldier* whilst doing a degree. If you decide you want to become an Officer in the Reg Force, *given today's current climate and the forecasted needs in the infantry corps*, it should be fairly doable to Component Transfer to the Reg Force and start Inf O training.
> 
> As for what degree, none of them gives you a leg-up in becoming an Inf O, so do something you could see yourself doing / using if the military was not an option.
> 
> *I say infantry soldier because I wish I had more time working on basic soldiering skills. I find myself now as a LAV Captain, when there is nothing going on in the field, grabbing C9s / C6s / track & bolts for the cannon / radios / etc and refreshing my own basics, often having to grab the nearest troop to help. Want me to plan and execute a raid, no problem, but detail strip and re-assemble a C6? The skill fade is real and dramatic, and largely because we glossed over it in training and never touched it again...
> 
> If you're talking about trying to commission without a degree, then yes, it'll be a long time. There are some programs to allow people without a degree to get one and take a commission. UTPNCM is one of those and it is a competitive program for sure.


Alright, thank you for the information. This will defiantly help me out a lot when I do decide to stay in or not.
Happy thanks giving as well


----------



## OP Overlord

Hi there, _I apologize in advance if any of this was previously answered_ **

I'm an Infantry Officer Candidate at the moment, and hope to be on course for Dismounted by next fall/winter (2016).
I saw the numbers and spoke with others about the roughly 50% failure rate of DP 1.1, and am working now to prepare myself for it.

Are there any recommendations of methods to physically prepare yourself beforehand to prevent a Medical RTU?
I'm currently doing 13km hikes in combats with 25lbs (my backpack can't carry more) every other week, and using rubbing-alcohol to harden my feet. As well as my usual weight training (3-4x/week) and 3-5km runs (2x/week).

If anyone has any additional advice I'd greatly appreciate it
Thanks!


----------



## daftandbarmy

OP Overlord said:
			
		

> Hi there, _I apologize in advance if any of this was previously answered_ **
> 
> I'm an Infantry Officer Candidate at the moment, and hope to be on course for Dismounted by next fall/winter (2016).
> I saw the numbers and spoke with others about the roughly 50% failure rate of DP 1.1, and am working now to prepare myself for it.
> 
> Are there any recommendations of methods to physically prepare yourself beforehand to prevent a Medical RTU?
> I'm currently doing 13km hikes in combats with 25lbs (my backpack can't carry more) every other week, and using rubbing-alcohol to harden my feet. As well as my usual weight training (3-4x/week) and 3-5km runs (2x/week).
> 
> If anyone has any additional advice I'd greatly appreciate it
> Thanks!



Before the course....

Do. Not. Get. Injured.

That is all....  :nod:


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## vonGarvin

OP Overlord said:
			
		

> Hi there, _I apologize in advance if any of this was previously answered_ **
> 
> I'm an Infantry Officer Candidate at the moment, and hope to be on course for Dismounted by next fall/winter (2016).
> I saw the numbers and spoke with others about the roughly 50% failure rate of DP 1.1, and am working now to prepare myself for it.
> 
> Are there any recommendations of methods to physically prepare yourself beforehand to prevent a Medical RTU?
> I'm currently doing 13km hikes in combats with 25lbs (my backpack can't carry more) every other week, and using rubbing-alcohol to harden my feet. As well as my usual weight training (3-4x/week) and 3-5km runs (2x/week).
> 
> If anyone has any additional advice I'd greatly appreciate it
> Thanks!



Sounds like you're already on a good start.  Mental toughness is much more important than physical toughness, although both are vital.

Cheers


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## Humphrey Bogart

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Sounds like you're already on a good start.  Mental toughness is much more important than physical toughness, although both are vital.
> 
> Cheers



I concur.  Just go hump in the woods weekly and do your normal PT routine you follow.


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## OP Overlord

Thanks for the advice everyone!!


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## isaac.m.hicks97

Hello Army.ca Forums:

As a naive university student, it is my goal to serve as a regular force infantry officer after I graduate, ideally in a Parachute Company. I've read many of the topics about serving as an infantry officer on this forum, and a question that I have that I do not believe has been answered is, what happens if you fail infantry officer training? 

I understand that when you enter BMOQ and Combat School, you need to be there ready to train, and I am doing everything I can as a civilian to get ready for the infantry; however, after reading that the attrition rate for infantry officer training is upwards of 50%, I had to be honest with myself about the very real possibility of failing. I'm sure that many-if not most-of that 50% who failed also showed up to train with the utmost intention of passing. So what happens to that 50%? Are they just recycled until they pass or choose a different trade? To be honest, and this view might change, but if I was not to pass as an infantry officer indefinitely, I think I would prefer to work for the RCMP or CSIS rather than choose a trade that isn't infantry. This however seems problematic as the army has just invested in me enough to send me through BMOQ. If someone doesn't pass as an infantry officer, is it possible for them to give up their commission and try as an infantry NCM? I don't want to screw the army over with some narcissistic mentality, so if I fail, I understand, but what options are there if you do fail? 

I have absolutely no previous military experience so everything I'm saying is speculation but on a personal note, I've read some of the most hellish descriptions of serving as an infantry officer on these forums, and everyone of them makes me more attracted to the infantry. It looks like the hardest job that one can volunteer for. The technical elements of the trade are fascinating as well as the logistical manner in which one must think. The very structure of the army is extremely interesting, with the divisions and organizations of ranks. It looks like a very mentally stimulating job. The culture of the infantry is also extremely attractive, especially that of Airborne Infantry. I like how harsh and brutal it has been made out to be. It sounds fulfilling and worthwhile. It sounds like the only job that I could ever want. From the outside looking in, being in the infantry, and specifically being a paratrooper, looks like the greatest job that anyone could possibly have.

Thank you

Isaac


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## mariomike

isaac.m.hicks97 said:
			
		

> , what happens if you fail infantry officer training?



That would be a good question to ask at a CFRC.

This is from 2008. But, it discusses the subject,



			
				Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> If it is just that the infantry is not for you but you have qualities that the CF find desireable you might find yourself in another occupation.  If, on the other hand, you cannot meet the standard (or show the potential to meet the standard) of any of the occupations you would most likely be shown the door but normally without any hard feelings.  There are many steps, however, before you get to that point and it is not arbitrary.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about it too much, since worry won't achieve very much.
> 
> The one thing that you _can_ control is your level of fitness prior to training.  Getting in great shape is perhaps the one great thing that you can do to set yourself up for success.


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## little jim

Interesting. Many moons ago when I was staff on Ph III Infantry any candidate that failed could transfer to the artillery or to the engineers (provided they had an engineering degree for the later) as an officer. Things have probably changed but someone from the Inf Sch should be able to chime in. 

We were also only allowed to use positive language, for example my first year there we didn’t have a 60% failure rate but instead had a 40% pass rate. 

As mentioned elsewhere here, the reality is not everyone can be a padre, and likewise not everyone can be in the infantry, interesting goal on the para coy.


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## daftandbarmy

isaac.m.hicks97 said:
			
		

> From the outside looking in, being in the infantry, and specifically being a paratrooper, looks like the greatest job that anyone could possibly have.



Nailed it.  :nod:

Go for it. No 'death bed regrets'!


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## brihard

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Nailed it.  :nod:
> 
> Go for it. No 'death bed regrets'!



Sponsored by Motrin!


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## winds_13

isaac.m.hicks97,

I'm not sure on your reasonings behind your infantry or bust mind set but would recommend you keep an open mind towards other officer occupations as well. When I joined, Infantry Officer was my first choice yet I ended up accepting an offer for Artillery Officer (ROTP) and have never looked back. In fact, I was fortunate enough to still be a member of a Para Company Group, both as an airborne Mortar Troop Commander and as a Forward Observation Officer (FOO), including jumping in to the Arctic on exercise (3x) and doing a jump exchange in Germany. I also got to serve as a M777 Troop Commander, Gun Position Officer, and Mechanized FOO. 

As well, regardless of what trade you go, you could still serve within the Special Forces or HUMINT, if you have the ambition and aptitude for it. Best of luck.


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## isaac.m.hicks97

winds_13 said:
			
		

> isaac.m.hicks97,
> 
> I'm not sure on your reasonings behind your infantry or bust mind set but would recommend you keep an open mind towards other officer occupations as well. When I joined, Infantry Officer was my first choice yet I ended up accepting an offer for Artillery Officer (ROTP) and have never looked back. In fact, I was fortunate enough to still be a member of a Para Company Group, both as an airborne Mortar Troop Commander and as a Forward Observation Officer (FOO), including jumping in to the Arctic on exercise (3x) and doing a jump exchange in Germany. I also got to serve as a M777 Troop Commander, Gun Position Officer, and Mechanized FOO.
> 
> As well, regardless of what trade you go, you could still serve within the Special Forces or HUMINT, if you have the ambition and aptitude for it. Best of luck.



Thank you winds_13 for your reply. I guess I'm going in with quite an all or nothing philosophy, without much room for compromise. JTFX or HUMINT (I don't know what the proper term is) sounds very interesting though. I can't really find any information about it unfortunately (not surprising). After reading about it though, I think that if I did not pass infantry officer training, I would be quite interested in working as an interrogator with military intelligence. Infantry is certainly preferable, but HUMINT is very interesting.


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## PuckChaser

isaac.m.hicks97 said:
			
		

> JTFX or HUMINT (I don't know what the proper term is) sounds very interesting though.



JTFX is the unit name, HUMINT is what they do.


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## Titix

Hello, 

I'm done with my QMBO and I'm now 2Lt doing OJT admin work for the RCAF. I really enjoyed my time at Basic Training where I did a great job overall and ranked quite good. I think about transferring to Infantry Officer right now so I don't waste anybody's time and ressources. I'm just wondering how is training in Gagetown if we compare it to, let's say, Farnham (Vimy or pre-Vimy). Those were actually my only field experiences as a section leader and comparison could give me a clue in terms of intensity and length.

Many thanks!


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