# Misconceptions abound...



## Long in the tooth (26 Apr 2002)

1.  Reservists are not ‘called up‘.  They cannot be coerced to go on a mission - they are all volunteers applying for positions as they come up.  If they apply for a position and get it, they cannot be compelled to do any other function!
2.  Class B positions are laid down in stone and members will not be moved.  In other words, applicants for them are choosing exactly the job they want and place to live.  Again, they cannot be called up or deployed.  That goes a long way to explain 85%
3.  Class C members are paid exactly the same as RegF members.  They must be deployable overseas.  They pay no CFSA, which makes their pay packet that much greater.
4.  Personally, when I transferred from the reserves to the regs I dropped 3 ranks with the promise every effort would be made for me to get my rank back - in 5 years, IF I made the cut in competitiion.
5.  As RSS for three years I am seeing people promoted twice since I‘ve been there.  This is very demoralizing.
6.  Reservists are able to attend school full time and have their books and tuition subsidized 50% (the remainder is tax deductible ++).  Although in theory this benefit exists for RegF, it is patently impossible for us to attend school full time.  Another frilly and useless benefit.
7.  If you are willing to parade on a semi-regular basis and have some aptitude in the Reserves you WILL make RSM or CO if you wait long enough.  I know, I type the secession lists.
8.  Now that I‘ve offended everyone, reconsider that I spent 10 years in the reserves.  They must be seen for what they are, where volunteers (like the Regs) have chosen a part time job.  Those who want to do it full time... join the Regs!
9.  I know of no profession or trade where people who work sporadic part time get paid as much as full time, well trained professionals who are on duty 24/7.  I wouldn‘t have many customers if I were a part time Dentist, now would I?  
10.  A reservist has absolutely no compuction to parade unless a state of emergency is declared by the government and the MND/CDS orders it.
11.  Cheers


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## fortuncookie5084 (27 Apr 2002)

Umm, right.  Then again I‘ve always said that entire reserve units in Canada should be "called up," leadership included, and attatched to the regular batallion being rotoed  to whatever hot spot.  Just because the Chretien government does not exploit its reserve force like it should does not mean we would not do our duty should we be called.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by fortuncookie5084:
> [qb]Umm, right.  Then again I‘ve always said that entire reserve units in Canada should be "called up," leadership included, and attatched to the regular batallion being rotoed  to whatever hot spot.  Just because the Chretien government does not exploit its reserve force like it should does not mean we would not do our duty should we be called.[/qb]


Will never happen, never should happen.  Too many reservists not qualified to be called up on the spot, nor should they be expected to.  The Reserves ARE a part time job - an important one.  A look at the last 100 years of history will explain why.


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## combat_medic (1 May 2002)

I‘m inclined to agree with my reg force counterparts. I‘m a reservist and I know dang well that I‘m not doing the same job as a reg force medic of equivalent rank. We get promoted in half the time, serving only part time work, are able to work in ANY location we choose, providing there is a regiment nearby AND get to go on operations any time there is an opening. 

When we go overseas and are on class C, doing a reg force job, we do get the exact same pay and benefits. We may get bumped down in rank, but why shouldn‘t we? My QL3 course was 6 weeks, QL4 is 5 weeks... the reg force QL3 is 3-4 months. It makes sense!!! 

Asking the government to give us equal pay is like asking them to allow cadets to join the reserves and keep some of their rank (and man have I heard soem cadets b***h about this). Yes, they may know some of the skills, heck, they may have a para course, leadership, drill instructor‘s etc. but it‘s not the same. right?


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## McG (1 May 2002)

> Originally posted by Long in the tooth:
> [qb]  6.  Reservists are able to attend school full time and have their books and tuition subsidized 50% (the remainder is tax deductible ++).  Although in theory this benefit exists for RegF, it is patently impossible for us to attend school full time.  Another frilly and useless benefit.[/qb]


This benifit only exists in theory for the reserves as well.  That 50%  is to a maximum of $2000 a year.  When tuition is just under $7000 and books another $1000, that comes nowhere near 50%.  The fact is that without that incentive, many reservists going to school would be forced to leave the reserves.  Even working full summers, one cannot get paid enough as a reservist to cover the costs of school and living.  Add to this the new fact that any reservist who has taken advantage of this bonus is exluded from any reg force signing bonus.  This is despite the fact that the signing bonuses range from $20000 to $40000 and the maximum a reservist can recieve from the reimbursment is $8000 (or four years).

It is a great benifit, but you have exagerated its greatness.


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## Brad Sallows (1 May 2002)

The pay discussion goes around in circles.  It seems simple enough - less training and experience vested in a reservist should mean less pay, right?  What complicates the situation is the "equal pay for equal work" principle.  It should mean that two people with the same required skills, doing the same job, should be compensated equally irrespective of any other skills they might have which don‘t bear on the current job.  I don‘t think the argument holds because the CF doesn‘t compensate by job - operational necessity drives us to compensate (expected) capability inherent with rank.  The "equal work/unequal pay" situation primarily exists in staffs where reservists with substantial full-time experience work alongside regulars.  But the regular is deployable (a significant difference).  But some of them still manage to grow roots "anywhere but operations", counter some reservists.  And on it goes.

Then of course there are the "overpromoted" (and hence "overpaid") senior reserve officers and NCOs.  "Overpromoted?"  Probably.  "Overpaid?"  Unlikely, once all the "at home" work is tallied up.  Simply put, the forces are hierarchical - we expect superiors to outrank subordinates.  There are all sorts of interesting "gotchas" to accompany rank deflation.  For example, suppose reserve unit ranks are capped at Maj/MWO.  What should happen to ranks within reserve brigade HQs?  (We must not kid ourselves that we could save a lot of money - do the arithmetic to see what happens if you reduce the LCol/Majs and CWO/MWOs in a typical unit by one rank.)

The great irony: full mobilization would generate the greatest promotion surge of all without necessarily sending everyone back to the schools to make up months of "delta" training.


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## Long in the tooth (2 May 2002)

Sorry, my friend, you seek to minimize the CF contribution to education.  Seems like NDP pap that promotes "free" education for all without consideration for the real cost.

If the Reserves are so poor a job choice for University Students, what is better?  Who offers these benefits?  In addition to 50% (and tuition is NOT $7000), students are auth $400 per month and the balance of expenses transferred to parents.

The Reserve Education benefit is the best thing going.  I have three children that I have to sell it to.  It used to be that only officers received this benefit, now regular attendance (once per week) pays the bills.  Cheers


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## rceme_rat (2 May 2002)

Well, the second best thing.  ROTP (or even RETP) would have to be given pretty serious consideration, I think.


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## McG (2 May 2002)

> Originally posted by Long in the tooth:
> [qb]Sorry, my friend, you seek to minimize the CF contribution to education.  Seems like NDP pap that promotes "free" education for all without consideration for the real cost.
> 
> If the Reserves are so poor a job choice for University Students, what is better?  Who offers these benefits?  In addition to 50% (and tuition is NOT $7000), students are auth $400 per month and the balance of expenses transferred to parents.
> ...


Reread what I said.  I did not say that the reimbursmet was bad or that a reservist could not afford University.  In fact, I said that it was this benifit that made it possible.  Without the benifit, I could list dozens of other jobs that are better options.

As for the tax dedutions your are using as an example, consider that those are available to all Canadians and do not affect the quality of this incentive.

This incentive has only existed for officers for three years.  It has existed for the NCMs for a year now.  However, that does not change the fact that if any of your children decide to join the Reg force after university they may be excluded from any and all signing bonuses.  Should they miss out on 20 to 40 thousand for the sake of eight thousand?

Lastly, I assure you, I have recipts that verify tution is already well across the $6000 mark and more to verify the $1000 price tag on books.  Anicipate that it will be beyond the $7000 within the next two years.  I have no doubt that costs are lower in Manitoba, but they cannot be so low that books and tuition total less than $4000.

So, as I have already said,  it is a great benifit but it is not 50%.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (11 Nov 2005)

The title fit so im dragging this one out of the grave to add a few more:

a)The days of hazing and beatings are long gone

b)Soldiers do in fact pay taxes and dont get base housing for free

c)The army doesn't get to take military vehicles home at the end of the day

d)Canada doesn't send its recruits over to iraq as soon as they get in(atleast as of 2005)

e)Just because your a regular at the YMCA doesnt mean your a sure bet to get in

f)You can phone home when your on course and overseas.

g)You are not the only one that is stuck in limbo awaiting "the call" to join.




more to follow


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## Armymedic (11 Nov 2005)

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> d)Canada doesn't send its recruits over to iraq as soon as they get in(atleast as of 2005)



Correction to d)

the CF doesn't send anyone to Iraq.

 d)Canada doesn't send its recruits overseas without doing the prerequisite training, departure checks, and you must agree to go.


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## pbi (11 Nov 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Correction to d)
> 
> the CF doesn't send anyone to Iraq.



You might want to ask MGen Natynczyk about that one...

Cheers


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## kincanucks (11 Nov 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> You might want to ask MGen Natynczyk about that one...
> 
> Cheers



Excellent point and a few Armoured Officers too.


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Nov 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Excellent point and a few Armoured Officers too.



Were they ordered to go, or did they volunteer?  See my post in the USMC Birthday thread about the "choice" some US reservists get.


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## kincanucks (11 Nov 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Were they ordered to go, or did they volunteer?   See my post in the USMC Birthday thread about the "choice" some US reservists get.



Well I suppose as Regular Force exchange officers with deployed units they had to go.


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## George Wallace (11 Nov 2005)

Actually, there were many Canadians in Iraq.  All were in 'Exchange' programs with Allied Nations like the US and UK.  They went with the organizations that they were affiliated with, as most members of the military would.  They were also, should they have felt for some reason that they must, allowed to stay back; being members of the CF and not members of the host nations Armed Forces.  I do not believe any Canadians on those Exchanges refused to go with the Units that they were attached to.


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Nov 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually, there were many Canadians in Iraq.  All were in 'Exchange' programs with Allied Nations like the US and UK.  They went with the organizations that they were affiliated with, as most members of the military would.  They were also, should they have felt for some reason that they must, allowed to stay back; being members of the CF and not members of the host nations Armed Forces.  I do not believe any Canadians on those Exchanges refused to go with the Units that they were attached to.



To their everlasting credit.

I would not compare that in the least to the National Guardsman or Reserve soldier in the US.  The MIA Marine I wrote about was actually inactive for several years; a few weeks of refresher training and he was off to the war, running foot patrols.  Those Canadian officers being discussed here were professionals practicing their craft at the time the units they were with were warned for war service.


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## Armymedic (12 Nov 2005)

pbi,
noted, but I think you and the rest know what I meant.

Lets say the Canadian Gov't doesn't send any soldiers directly to Iraq.


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## Hansol (12 Nov 2005)

how does one even get to go on one of these "exchanges"? just another application to fill out? -Cameron


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## GrimRX (12 Nov 2005)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Sorry, my friend, you seek to minimize the CF contribution to education.  Seems like NDP pap that promotes "free" education for all without consideration for the real cost.
> 
> If the Reserves are so poor a job choice for University Students, what is better?  Who offers these benefits?  In addition to 50% (and tuition is NOT $7000)



Tuition for one semester may go to 3000 dollars depending on your program and your university.  Include books in that and you could hit 3500-3700.  For two semesters this could mean 7000-8000 bucks.  Three semesters (like the system at Simon Fraser)? 11,000.

But lets say you take only two semesters are you take two army courses each summer (best case senario).  If you're like me at a Private payscale 3, that means, in total you'll get about 6000 per summer.  

"Almost enough to pay for university straight off." you say.  oh, but if it t'were so.

The only time I've seen someone get two courses in a row is their BMQ\SQ\BIQ and at that point, they are usually not a private 3 (although there are exceptions to that).

So, realisticly, you're neting 2500-3000 for one course (assuming you buy nothing while you're there. Fat chance, lol).  That added to 7.5 months of normal reserve army work (lets say 4 half days a month, one saturday per month and a weekend (fri-sat-sun) per month at most) .  Assuming, again, a pay scale of Private 3, you'll be making approx $4100 if you show up at every work day (assuming homework\papers\studying for tests don't cause you to miss anything.)

So, an entire years work nets you 6700-7000.  If you spend nothing on anything else, it's possible that you could pay off your tuition with it.  Realisticly though, not gonna happen,  you'll buy food, alcohol, smokes if you smoke, more food, clothes, cover charges, birthday gifts, christmas gifts, movie tickets, speeding tickets, insoles, bus tickets or car insurance and gas, and a wack load of other things.  Now some of these things are wants, but some are needs.  

[quote author=Worn Out Grunt] The Reserve Education benefit is the best thing going.  I have three children that I have to sell it to.  It used to be that only officers received this benefit, now regular attendance (once per week) pays the bills.  Cheers
[/quote]

Look to my above point,  regular attendance does not "pay the bills".  Now yes, the Res edu benefit is a Good thing (if you can get it to work for you, I'm STILL trying to find out what exactly they need for my tuition recept.  I tried to hand in what SFU gave me but I was told it wasn't good enough) but it ain't the bees knees.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (12 Nov 2005)

Okay, Okay I knew that one would be brought up. I just wanted to get rid of the myth that the Canadian armed forces was actively recruiting people to fill some quota overseas. As this forum demonstrates every day soldiers are hoping to get tours overseas and I am pretty sure the few positions available in iraq are not going to be forced upon a first year soldier.


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## wack-in-iraq (12 Nov 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> To their everlasting credit.
> 
> I would not compare that in the least to the National Guardsman or Reserve soldier in the US.   The MIA Marine I wrote about was actually inactive for several years; a few weeks of refresher training and he was off to the war, running foot patrols.   Those Canadian officers being discussed here were professionals practicing their craft at the time the units they were with were warned for war service.


 
its funny, canada is not a 'coalition country' but i have met more canadians in uniform over here than many other nations that supported this stupid war. most recently i met a LCol who was a major in 3VP up until about 6 months ago, now he is over here with 3ID. its not just comissioned guys either, i have met 2 WOs over here, even brought one of them off base to our house for a BBQ and some beers, us canadians have to stick together, no matter where we are !


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## Stauds (12 Nov 2005)

GrimRX... you didn't take into account residence, or food/rent/utilities...

If I were to be living on residence, not at home:
$5000 for tuition
$1200+ for books
$6000+ for residence...

So, at least $12 000 per year, for the average program. If you were in orthodontics, for tuition, you could be spending upwards of $8000... PER TERM!...

So there is no way the reserves... or any job, can pay for the average student's expenses on a yearly basis. 

Just adding to the cost of university...


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## GrimRX (12 Nov 2005)

Stauds said:
			
		

> GrimRX... you didn't take into account residence, or food/rent/utilities...
> 
> If I were to be living on residence, not at home:
> $5000 for tuition
> ...



Yes, I didn't mention those (though I tossed food in there at the end) mainly because I was speaking purely of tuition.


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## George Wallace (12 Nov 2005)

Stauds said:
			
		

> So there is no way the reserves... or any job, can pay for the average student's expenses on a yearly basis.


True.   However, it does pay for a good chunk of it; more than not having a job, and one that will reimburse you for some of your tuition.


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## GrimRX (12 Nov 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> True.  However, it does pay for a good chunk of it; more than not having a job, and one that will reimburse you for some of your tuition.



That was my point, in opposition to Worn-Out-Grunt:  That regular attendance doesn't pay for everything, though it is a good program.


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