# New Demo Course in Meaford



## PteGDD (15 Feb 2007)

Anyone know anything at all about the new demo. course they got going in Meaford?  I don't think it's long, just curious about it...that's all.


----------



## MJP (15 Feb 2007)

I agree with PteGDD on this one.  I'd be interested in hearing about any new course that involved demolitions. It was one of many lessons learned overseas that there is a need for some of the skillsets that was lost with the removal of pioneer Pls from Infantry Bns.  I can think of several instances where we at the section and Pl level could have used simple charges to removes UXO's and the like instead of waiting for valuable and overtasked engineer assets  Maybe this is an attempt to rectify that.  In any case I rather hear from the horse's mouth rather than people guessing and throwing snide and offhand comments.

Edited for bad grammar and spelling


----------



## aesop081 (15 Feb 2007)

We have alot of ammo people and engineers here, i hope one of them comes along.


----------



## Michael OLeary (16 Feb 2007)

OK, (fresh back from a mess dinner), who actually can tell us what the course in Meaford is about?  Who is being trained and for what qualification?  What kind of training are they doing?  What is the course preparing them for?   And, for those who may be interested in future training opportunities, what were the prerequisites?


----------



## McG (16 Feb 2007)

PteGDD said:
			
		

> Demolition course.  I heard it's a lot of blowing up UXO's.


It has been several years since the last time I was in Meaford, but at that time the base ran a "how to BIP your dud grenade" course.  Basic charge, non-electric firing, and where to put the charge were what was taught.  If you did not have the Meaford course, you had to call RC if you had a dud (even us Engr, for whatever reason, could not do it ourselves).  I never took this couse & have always worried that it was probably teaching people just enough to be dangerous to themselves.  

That being said, I think all arms demolitions is a good thing if it is done properly.  That means the training must include a know your limitations class to illuminate soldiers on the dangers of experimenting with explosives.


----------



## 3rd Herd (16 Feb 2007)

MJP
things must have have changed. We had a week of blowing things up, setting booby traps and finding them, couple hours of classroom on improvised explosives in battle school. I still occasionally look at the photos particularly after a bad day of dealling with VAC. Oh what could be settled with a little this and that.


----------



## McG (16 Feb 2007)

MJP said:
			
		

> I can think of several instances where we at the section and Pl level could have used simple charges to removes UXO's and the like instead of waiting for valuable and overtasked engineer assets


In all honesty, even if you have a basic demolitions course, you want to wait for the Engr (or just leave it).  If you get the charge placement wrong, you will just make it angry and it will kill you.  If you approach it wrong, you will make it angry and it will kill you.  You can even cast your shadow the wrong way and it will kill you.  You need to be able to recognize the ammunition specifically or you'd best not go near it.

The fact that IED are often disguised as UXO only makes this fact more important.

I don't know what was in Pioneer trg.  If the new courses will include the CFSME CMD package, then they should know the left & right of arc and be able to deal with some UXO.  If it does not cover CMD, then I would hope the new Pioneer are being taught not to under estimate the nastiness of a UXO that they do not know.


----------



## dangerboy (16 Feb 2007)

If the course is the Basic Demolition Course (Crse code AJBV), you will learn simple non-electric charges with a additional PO for DP3A qualified pers to destroy in service grenades (C13) the destruction of grenades is for duds on Canadian ranges. It is not designed to destroy UKO's and IED's leave them to the professionals. All we can do with those bad boys is hopefully spot them set up a cordon and send as much info back as possible.


----------



## MJP (16 Feb 2007)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> MJP
> things must have have changed. We had a week of blowing things up, setting booby traps and finding them, couple hours of classroom on improvised explosives in battle school. I still occasionally look at the photos particularly after a bad day of dealling with VAC. Oh what could be settled with a little this and that.



Times indeed have changed 3rd Herd and we are lucky to have soldiers that are qualified on basic infantry weapons let alone throwing in demo.



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> In all honesty, even if you have a basic demolitions course, you want to wait for the Engr (or just leave it).  If you get the charge placement wrong, you will just make it angry and it will kill you.  If you approach it wrong, you will make it angry and it will kill you.  You can even cast your shadow the wrong way and it will kill you.  You need to be able to recognize the ammunition specifically or you'd best not go near it.
> 
> The fact that IED are often disguised as UXO only makes this fact more important.
> 
> I don't know what was in Pioneer trg.  If the new courses will include the CFSME CMD package, then they should know the left & right of arc and be able to deal with some UXO.  If it does not cover CMD, then I would hope the new Pioneer are being taught not to under estimate the nastiness of a UXO that they do not know.



I not just talking about UXOs but the ability to do demo in certain situations.  I for one am all for the engineers doing the job, but they are far and few between, not to mention overtasked at times.  But at times there can be the need for an infantry/armoured/any soldier to BIP something or create a hole etc etc.  Having that tool in the toolbag is quite handy IMHO.

One extreme example was a sub unit from 2VP was ambushed and tried to fight their way out.  The road in front of them had an obvious IED placed on their route.  They were lucky and able to smash through the walls surrounding a field and go around it.  But IF it was the only way out, having the ability to take care of that in a combat situation makes for a warm fuzzy for me.

Other examples include hasty BIPing of caches, or captured ammo/weapons, weakening or breaching walls/obstacles.  Taking into consideration that it is if there is no other alternative.





			
				dangerboy said:
			
		

> If the course is the Basic Demolition Course (Crse code AJBV), you will learn simple non-electric charges with a additional PO for DP3A qualified pers to destroy in service grenades (C13) the destruction of grenades is for duds on Canadian ranges. It is not designed to destroy UKO's and IED's leave them to the professionals. All we can do with those bad boys is hopefully spot them set up a cordon and send as much info back as possible.



Seen and that is all it probably is, a common course designed for one specifc purpose.


----------



## NL_engineer (16 Feb 2007)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> If the course is the Basic Demolition Course (Crse code AJBV), you will learn simple non-electric charges with a additional PO for DP3A qualified pers to destroy in service grenades (C13) the destruction of grenades is for duds on Canadian ranges. It is not designed to destroy UKO's and IED's leave them to the professionals. All we can do with those bad boys is hopefully spot them set up a cordon and send as much info back as possible.



The course also covers satchel charges, and an other breaching charge as well (I think).  

The course is just for:" Oh there is a dragons tooth in the way, lets blow it with a satchel charge; so we can continue our advance"  NOT "lets BIP this 2000 lbs bomb by taping C4 to it"


----------



## dangerboy (16 Feb 2007)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> The course also covers satchel charges, and an other breaching charge as well (I think).
> 
> The course is just for:" Oh there is a dragons tooth in the way, lets blow it with a satchel charge; so we can continue our advance"  NOT "lets BIP this 2000 lbs bomb by taping C4 to it"


You are correct you learn the basics of satchel charges, Bangalore torpedoes, 15lb bee hives. You do not actually do any breaching, you learn that on the Urban ops instructors course.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (16 Feb 2007)

There's also the All Arms Demolition Instructor course which, when I was in Gagetown, CFSME ran a couple of times a year.  Designed for MCpl+ to give them the skills to go back and teach basic demolitons in their units.  Was three weeks long, covered basic charges, very basic dud disposal, aids to digging, and denial.  What was previously B-GL-304 (Ranges and Training Safety) also contained the course content for a 1-2 day course in basic charges/basic duds.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (16 Feb 2007)

Looking at the current CFSME Training Calendar it appears that a Basic Demolitions Instructors Course is slotted to run from 28-May till 21-Jun (Course Code AGRS) but there is no indication of a Basic Demolitions Course (Course Code AJBV).

But it seems that it will likely not run, as it is based on whther CTC will run an Urban Ops Crse. Historically, this crse has been cancelled each year for the past few yrs.

<edit>

Also there is no mention of any course being run by CFSME at Meaford. Maybe  2 CER is teaching it?


----------



## orange.paint (16 Feb 2007)

PteGGD,could you possibly be confused with "Demo platoon"?Acting as enemy force etc?


----------



## MJP (16 Feb 2007)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> There's also the All Arms Demolition Instructor course which, when I was in Gagetown, CFSME ran a couple of times a year.  Designed for MCpl+ to give them the skills to go back and teach basic demolitons in their units.  Was three weeks long, covered basic charges, very basic dud disposal, aids to digging, and denial.  What was previously B-GL-304 (Ranges and Training Safety) also contained the course content for a 1-2 day course in basic charges/basic duds.



That sounds cool and very adaptable....I realize we are now delving wayyyy off of the original topic but this kind of stuff sounds like exactly what we need to get soldiers up to the basic level.  My only problem with it is it for MCPL and up.  Leaders are extremly busy overseas, especially when they would have a requirement to have to utilize any of these skills.


----------



## George Wallace (16 Feb 2007)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> There's also the All Arms Demolition Instructor course which, when I was in Gagetown, CFSME ran a couple of times a year.  Designed for MCpl+ to give them the skills to go back and teach basic demolitons in their units.  Was three weeks long, covered basic charges, very basic dud disposal, aids to digging, and denial.  What was previously B-GL-304 (Ranges and Training Safety) also contained the course content for a 1-2 day course in basic charges/basic duds.



Is that being run again?  For the longest time (for more than ten years) it was like winning the loto if you could find that course being run, let alone get nominated for it.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (17 Feb 2007)

MJP said:
			
		

> That sounds cool and very adaptable....I realize we are now delving wayyyy off of the original topic but this kind of stuff sounds like exactly what we need to get soldiers up to the basic level.  My only problem with it is it for MCPL and up.  Leaders are extremly busy overseas, especially when they would have a requirement to have to utilize any of these skills.



Well it was designed for our old tempo.  Sort of like a "train the trainer" course.  You had to have JLC/CLC course because you had to know how take the skills you learnt and instruct them back at your unit.  Ideally it wouldn't be the instructor qualified person going out and doing the blows, it would be the people he taught.  Same with the All Arms Mine Warfare Instructor course.  I think that course has really disappeared, especially with the withdrawal of AP mines.  As Nfld Sapper pointed out, the Dems Instr course is still on the schedule, but is probably a pretty low priority course and the first to get dropped in case of conflicts. Edit- Or is filled with pers who are going on the Urban Ops course and have need to have a basic skill set prior to that.  Not quite sure how to interpret his post


----------



## Spr.Earl (17 Feb 2007)

PteGDD said:
			
		

> Anyone know anything at all about the new demo. course they got going in Meaford?  I don't think it's long, just curious about it...that's all.



With out more info I can only guess it may be a R.S.O. course?


----------



## McG (17 Feb 2007)

MJP said:
			
		

> I not just talking about UXOs but the ability to do demo in certain situations.


I knew you were talking of more than just UXO (it is why I voiced my support for all arms demolition in a post higher up).  Basic charge & banglore torpedo should be top of the list.



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> Other examples include hasty BIPing of caches, or captured ammo/weapons,


You are getting yourself into a very dangerous area here.  Many of these things have the ability to function in ways you would not predict & ruin your day.  If you are not trained and cannot secure it (possibly with ANA or ANP), you should leave it.


----------



## NL_engineer (17 Feb 2007)

MJP said:
			
		

> Other examples include hasty BIPing of caches, or captured ammo/weapons, weakening or breaching walls/obstacles.  Taking into consideration that it is if there is no other alternative.



Refer to my example, let the pros (engineers  ;D and ammo techs : deal with the big stuff, IMO the all arms demo course is there for the small stuff like breaching a door/wall  :brickwall:.


----------



## MJP (17 Feb 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> I knew you were talking of more than just UXO (it is why I voiced my support for all arms demolition in a post higher up).  Basic charge & banglore torpedo should be top of the list.
> You are getting yourself into a very dangerous area here.  Many of these things have the ability to function in ways you would not predict & ruin your day.  If you are not trained and cannot secure it (possibly with ANA or ANP), you should leave it.



True enough....I'll be the first to admit I'm way out my lane when it comes to demo.  I'd rather have the skillset in my sections back pocket for exactly what NL_Engineer had said.....


----------



## Armynewsguy (17 Feb 2007)

Here is the link to the video story on the basic demolition course that was offered in Meaford

http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1630

Here is the link to the print story about the basic demolition course that was offered in Meaford

http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=1609

compliments of Army News


----------



## PteGDD (18 Feb 2007)

EX_RCAC_011 said:
			
		

> PteGGD,could you possibly be confused with "Demo platoon"?Acting as enemy force etc?



Demolition...


----------



## soggy sapper (14 Apr 2007)

As a qualified advanced EOD tech, with multiple tours to the sand box (and after reading the article about this basic demo course) My opinion would be that this is for Canadian range use ONLY. If someone takes this course and thinks they can BIP (blow in place- the easiest and most safe way to dispose of UXO's) in Theater, they'll end up getting themselves (or others ) killed or wounded. their is more to UXO dustruction than most realize, such as what hazards the item has, and what you have to do to limit them, how to approach a UXO, where and how to place a charge, what kind of explosive to use, in what form i.e  maybe a speciality charge is best.
Not going to get into trade secret;s but their is WAY more to it than most understand, we don't "pop and drop", the advanced EOD course I took was 4 and 1/2 months long and has been extended to 6 months, and is a NATO course. What this basic course seems to be designed for is dud destruction on Canadian soil, or (very) basic charges in combat. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in way over their head. 
rant ends.........now


----------



## Emenince Grise (14 Apr 2007)

Well, it DOES explain some of the pops and cracks in the neighbourhood...  mind you, when the Reserves were doing artillery qualification last month we could see and hear the booms all the way to Owen Sound...


----------



## McG (15 Apr 2007)

soggy sapper said:
			
		

> their is more to UXO dustruction than most realize, such as what hazards the item has, and what you have to do to limit them, how to approach a UXO, where and how to place a charge, what kind of explosive to use, in what form


. . . and every piece of ordinance is different.


----------

