# Enroll Permanent Resident / Naturalized Citizen



## gokul

Does Canadian army recruit permanent residents? I have read in some pages of army website that, they do recruit permanent residents for non-commissioned positions as reservists, but there's no elaboration of this. I appreciate any inputs.
Thanks all


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## willy

If I remember correctly, landed immigrants may join the reserves, but not the regular force.


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## Redeye

Permanent Residents (landed immigrants) may hold non-commissioned positions in the PRes.


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## gokul

I heard one should have been a landed immigrant for a minimal period of 5 consecutive years before being considered for the PRes, is that info correct? I got that info from a Montreal CFRC. But the army website has no mention of such conditionality. 




> Originally posted by Redeye:
> [qb] Permanent Residents (landed immigrants) may hold non-commissioned positions in the PRes. [/qb]


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## Caz

The army website is only going to give basic information.  CFRC Montreal is likely giving you accurate information.

To the best of my knowledge, a Landed Immigrant may apply for Reserve positions, and the CFRC must show that a Canadian Citizen is not being denied the opportunity.  Good luck; let us know how it goes.


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## Sh0rtbUs

I've just been informed that the mandatory Residency in Canada Policy to join has been bumped to 10 years, with Citizenship. Can anyone confirm?


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## Torlyn

Depends what for.  To become a citizen, you need to be a permanent resident for at least 3 years, however each case is seperate...  You'd probably be better off contacting citizenship/immigration and explaining your particulars to them...

T


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## bestman

Hello, I am an interantional student in british columbia I graduated in my country and enrolled on a program.so is there a way i can join the canadian army if am not a citizen?


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## Mike l

You need to be a landed immigrant or a citizen last time i checked.


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## chrisf

Used to be landed immigrant for the res, citizen for the regs... as far as I know, that was changed for citizen for both regs and res...


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## Big Foot

I thought it was citizen for all officers but landed immigrant for res NCM.


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## Eowyn

From a conversation I had with an officer from CFRC, 2 weekends ago...   you must be a citizen to join the Reserves as well as the Regular Forces.


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## Lost_Warrior

You are correct.  My gf is a landed immigrant who wanted to join the military(reserves) last year (medic) as an NCM,  but was told by the CFRC that she had to be a Canadian citizen to join.  So off her papers went.  She's still waiting for them..  :


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## Tracker

Call 1-800-856-8588 and talk with a recruiter.


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## fleeingjam

not only do you have to be a citezen but also have been in canada for the past 10 years, or else you need a secruity clearance check, which can slow down thing pretty good :boring:


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## Love793

I can verify, as a recruiter, that yes you MUST be a Canadian Citizen now for ALL trades Reg, PRes and CIC.   This was done to prevent people with "ties" to certain groups from using the training we have given them aagainstus or our allies.   The change ococcurredost 9/11.


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## barzini

IF IM NOT FROM CANADA, CAN I JOIN THE ARMY OF CANADA?


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## camochick

NO


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## Scoobie Newbie

First off you don't need to use all capital letters.  Secondly I know of a person who was not a Canadian citizen but was in the military.  They may have changed their recruiting rules since then however.


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## Gouki

THIS HAS BEEN ANSWERED BEFORE.

MANY TIMES.

LOL.

What I would give to use that Jim Carrey search button image right now ..


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## Fruss

If you're not from Canada but a Canadian citizen, yes you can....

Take a look at this thread:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/23328.0.html

Good luck!

Frank


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## PO

I'm not a canadian. I'm actually from Russia.
My question - is it possible for me to be enrolled in Canadian army and what should I do to achieve my goal?
Thank you


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## kincanucks

Answered many times.  You have to be a Canadian citizen to apply to the CF.  Once you are a Canadian citizen you will be subjected to a very long security process if you have not lived in Canada for ten continuous immediately proceeding your application.


Mods:  I think you can lock this one.


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## Fusilier

Little hasty kincanucks, you may be a landed imigrant and apply to the Primary Reserves of the Canadian Forces, but you must have Canadian citizenship to join the Regular Force.

Definately correct on the lengthy security process though.


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## beach_bum

Since 9/11 you need to be a Canadian citizen to join both the PRes and the Reg F.


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## Infanteer

Fusilier said:
			
		

> Little hasty kincanucks, you may be a landed imigrant and apply to the Primary Reserves of the Canadian Forces, but you must have Canadian citizenship to join the Regular Force.



Considering he's a recruiting Officer (and THE source for recruiting info on this site) perhaps you are being a little hasty by trying to point out where he is wrong.

Beach Bum is correct, the rules have changed since the security concerns heightened in the post 9/11 environment.


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## Frappini

I use to live in the US, moved out about a month ago to europe. and wanted to join the Canada army.   I've always liked canada over the US just had to live in the US due to family and all. But its all over with and all  So I wanted to be in canada and also join the army. Just wondering if you got to be a Canadian Citizen to Join? And also is there an age limit? 


Thank You, David frappini@yahoo.com 

p.s. i also seen that you have to do some tests before you can join and speak french and all. That is not a problem I've been speaking french and english my whole life. So no idea if i would have a problem or not.


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## George Wallace

Try out the Search function>>>>

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18031.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3161.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33470.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33593.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32782.0.html

and many more if you look.  This question has been asked numerous times.  Good Luck..


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## Frappini

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Try out the Search function>>>>
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18031.0.html
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3161.0.html
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33470.0.html
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33593.0.html
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32782.0.html
> 
> and many more if you look.   This question has been asked numerous times.   Good Luck..



Thanks man.


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## kincanucks

So that you are not confused by some of the information that is included in the above links.  You must be a Canadian citizen in order to be eligible to apply to the Canadian Forces.


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## Fishbone Jones

Short and sweet, from our Recruiting Guru.


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## NickLawless

Hello,

I am an Irish citizen. Done a spell in the Irish Permanent Defence Forces here including a trip overseas to East Timor. I have always wanted to become part of an army with more oppertunity as a career. Basically, I just want to find out if that is possible. I have checked the websites on the links and have sent e-mails to the proper channels but I just wanted to see if you have any information that can be of any use to me. I am extremely interested and anything I can do to do this I am prepared to do.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

Nick Lawless
Galway
Ireland


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## Michael OLeary

Canadian citizenship would be your first hurdle.

Some similar inquiries and their reultant threads are linked from this thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33593.0.html


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## NickLawless

Thank you

Will have a read 

Cheers


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## dustynus

What are the conditions of being a dutch citizen joining the CF?
I am a canadian citizen, but are there any exceptions or something to being a dutch citizen too?
I am planning on applying to go to RMC.


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## kincanucks

There will be no problem as long as you have been in Canada since you were 16.


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## dustynus

ok Thanks  ;D 
I'm only in grade 11 now, but planning on applying in september.  8)


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## Fishbone Jones

That's got your immediate question answered. For more info, there's lot's over in the Recruiting forum. Try there first. The "Search" function also works pretty good. You've got a while to go yet, before joining, so spend some time checking out the various forums. It might give you an idea of what you want to do. In the meantime....


"Welcome to Army.ca"


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## Dispatch

I am a US born citizen. I am US military prior service, honorably discharged. How do I find out about joining the Canadian army? Does enlistment fulfillment entitle me to a Canadian citizenship? ???


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## kincanucks

You must be a Canadian citzen to join the Canadian Forces.  If you obtain Permanent Resident Status and being ex-service you could try this route but it is not very successful:

Information for Non-Canadian Citizens

Canadian Forces (CF) policy states that in order to be eligible for enrolment into the Forces, applicants must hold Canadian citizenship. The only exception made to this policy is as follows.

Applicants who: are not Canadian citizens, but do hold Permanent Resident Status; and possess specialized skills / qualifications the CF has need of and cannot fill with a Canadian citizen; and do not pose a risk to any national interest; may only be enrolled into the Canadian Forces if permission is granted by the Commander of the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group (CFRG).

Application Procedure for Non-
Canadian Citizens

As you do not currently hold Canadian citizenship, you will have to be granted a Citizenship Waiver by the Commander of CFRG before starting any of the selection testing. In order to do this you must provide a curriculum vitae (CV) or resume to:

Canadian Forces Recruiting Group Headquarters
Attention: SSO Selection
Canadian Forces Base Borden
PO Box 1000, Station Main
Borden, Ontario L0M 1C0

The CV / resume should include:

Personal Information

Name (in full)
Date and place of birth
Brief outline of where you have lived (include dates)
Where your immediate family is currently residing (include parent, siblings, spouse and parents-in-law)
Reasons for your relocation to Canada
Date of arrival in Canada and date, you were granted Permanent Resident Status

Education
Name of all educational institutions attended
Grade / Level completed and year of completion
Diplomas / Degrees awarded
Areas of specialization
Marks / Grade Point Averages
Apprenticeship / Journeyman qualifications

Employment
List all part-time, summer or full-time employment positions you have held
Dates for each position
Brief description of duties for each position
Qualifications or training you received “on-the-job”

Activities

List all volunteer positions you may have held
List all clubs / organizations / community groups you have belonged to
If there are any other points, or pertinent facts you would like to include, please feel free to do so.
Once you have submitted your CV / resume, it will be assessed by the Headquarters to determine what skills you possess that may be of benefit to the CF. Once this assessment has been completed you will be contacted directly and told whether or not a waiver of your citizenship has been granted. You will not undergo any of the selection testing until you have been granted this Citizenship Waiver.


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## Dispatch

Upon submission of this wavier you speak of, how long does it usually take to get an answer? Would my physically going to Canada on a passport with all of my pertinent documents help me in the application process?


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## Pte_Martin

Correct me if i'm wrong Kincanucks, but yes you have to have Permanent Resident Status which means you have to live here in Canada.


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## rhino18

I too an employed as a recruiter.  With regard to a waiver, I have asked many of my peers if they recall one being granted.  The responce was not that great.  I could find only one.  The skills he had were that of a fully trained F18 pilot.  

So, unfortunatley, it doesn't look good for you.


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## kincanucks

Dispatch said:
			
		

> Upon submission of this wavier you speak of, how long does it usually take to get an answer? Would my physically going to Canada on a passport with all of my pertinent documents help me in the application process?



You have to move here and take up residency that is why it is called Permanent Resident Status.  Once you obtain Permanent Resident Status then you can use the method described above.  What is so hard to understand about that?


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## kincanucks

RHFC said:
			
		

> Correct me if i'm wrong Kincanucks, but yes you have to have Permanent Resident Status which means you have to live here in Canada.



You are correct and perhaps our American friend now understands the procedure.


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## Fishbone Jones

Question answered


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## Insanehuman

Hello people. I was wondering why do you need to be a Canadian citizen to join the army? I've tried to conttact the recruiting office but got no reply. On the official website they don't give a particular reason. I'm a permanent resident in Canada and already recieved aproval for citizenship, but i have to wait for 8-12 month until i become Canadian citizen. Ok, any info would be helpfull. Thanks for advance.


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## geo

it wasn't always like that
in the 90s, you could get accepted as a landed immigrant if you were becoming an NCO but you had to be a citzen if you intended to become an officer.

sometime around 9/11 increased security procedures were applied and we now ask for citzenship for both OR and Officer applicants.

Must point out that before the changes, it would take forever for non citzen OR applications to get thru their security clearance so, not much in the way of changes I guess...


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## aesop081

straight from the DND FAQ page:

*A. You must meet the following minimal conditions: 
be a Canadian citizen (if you have a permanent resident status, you may still be considered eligible for employment under certain conditions) 
be at least 17 years of age (16 for the Reserves and Military College) with parental/quardian consent for minors 
have successfully completed Grade 10 (Sec III in Quebec); some entry programs have additional academic prerequisites*

Thanks for taking the time to do some reaserch.....looks good on you


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## Insanehuman

So security is the main reason right? Do you think if i go and tell them that i'm willing to die for Canada would this change anything? Because i am!


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## aesop081

Insanehuman said:
			
		

> So security is the main reason right? Do you think if i go and tell them that i'm willing to die for Canada would this change anything? Because i am!



Oh in that case........... :


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## Insanehuman

I don't know how to explain this but i think that civil life is a PARASITE. What i mean by that is that most people want a good job to have a good life and they live day by day doing pretty much the same, but there are other people who fight for their freedom so that they can have a good life. And they are sometimes forgotten.... Ahhhh


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## aesop081

somebody please help me out....i'm dying here !!


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## Michael OLeary

Enough for now.

If one of the experienced recruiters on the site as something to add, they can contact a staff member to have it posted.


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## tomahawk6

Would this be a good change ? I am sure it would expand the number of potential recruits which is the goal.

http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/060821/cit/060821ao.htm


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## Lost_Warrior

IMHO, as long as they pass the background check and physical, then great.  If a landed immigrant wants to serve this country I say more power to them.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't the PRes at one point recruit landed immigrants, which was only recently changed a few years ago?


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## Quag

Actually, if you follow alot of the actions of Gen. Hillier, and even the CSOR, you will notice the forces are trying to get a lot of mid-eastern people. 
This is because they want to have people with the language and cultures/customs of the areas we are currently in operation.


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## KevinB

Well the US recruits the same way (Green Card) with added bonus to citizenship.


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## tomahawk6

Correct and it expands the recruit pool. I just wish we would sponsor foreign applicants like we did during Vietnam.


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## GAP

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Correct and it expands the recruit pool. I just wish we would sponsor foreign applicants like we did during Vietnam.



I was considered one of them...worked for me and the U.S.


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## rogsco

The mechanism for enrolling landed immigrants already exists. The CF just needs to make it a bit easier to use the existing regulation and less "exceptional" and the media should stop publicizing that only citizens can join. Now, if the Govt wants to fast track citizenship, that's a different story.

From QR&O 6.01:

"(1) In order to be eligible for enrolment in the Canadian Forces as an officer or non-commissioned member, a person must:

(a) be a Canadian citizen, except that the Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may authorize the enrolment of a citizen of another country if he is satisfied that a special need exists and the national interest would not be prejudiced theirby:..."


From the CF recruiting website:

Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country.


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## cameron

I'm here with my fingers crossed so hard the circulation has almost stopped.


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## 1feral1

I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as all the standards are met, and they don't come from a scheduled country, or a country where their backgrounds cannot be verified.

It worked before, and not that long ago.

To enhance this even more, the CF could dangle a carrot, like other BCW nations, and if so, could do some honest poaching from say the UK and Australia for example, capturing some quality 'pre trained' soldiers with experience in operations, and sound leadership. 

It all works for Australia. Currently with us right now, we have one Canuck (me), one Fijian,, a Philippino, one Croat and a Serb (they get along - don't mention soccer though), a host of Poms, and Kiwis, plus an Irishman, all mixed in with convict stock (haha). Its a big dysfunctional family of circus sideshow freaks and misfits (a combination of paratroopers, armoured, and the rest of the lot), but we all get along, we're professional, well focused, and we all have a common goal of getting the job done right, and coming home safe and sound.


Cheers,

Wes


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## geo

well, for a start, any foreign citzen coming from a Comonwealth country should be eligible for special treatment... applying citzenship rule to them never made sense.

citzens coming from a NATO alliance country should be eligible for some consideration.  If we are prepared to fight alongside their countrymen's formed units, armed to the teeth, then we should be prepared to consider them for individual augmentation.

For the rest, do your screenings, ensure that language is not a problem and if they are a good pick, then they are a good pick - without having to wait the 3 - 5 years for citzenship.


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## mike_l

Hey it'll be the Canadian Foriegn Legion.  In the FFL after serving 3 years you get your citizenship.  As long as proper background checks done it should not be too bad.  As long as they speak English, French or Newfenesse.


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## Hisspouse

I also fully support this option for fullfilling our recruitment quota !  If we have newcomers who are ready to show pride and respect for their new country by supporting it's military I say go for it. We are a mixing pot and having a truly blended army has many benefits, both for peacekeeping and our humanitarian roles. 
Especially when the DART is deployed, anything that helps open the lines of communication in foreign countries to speed things up is great!


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## armyrules

I agree with Lost_Warrior as long as they pass all the entry stuff like we all had to and are not forced into it they do it voluntarily then sure.


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## big bad john

In the UK Commonwealth citizens make a significant number of the recruits each year in the Armed Forces.


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## TMM

BBJ, that surprised me when I watched some Britsih military training shows on TV. It seemed like at least 25% of that group was from the Caribbean.


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## big bad john

Fijians are particularly common in Scottish Regiments.  Many recruits from South Africa and Zimbabwe also.


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## armyrules

This maybe a bit off topic but a little bit of military training never hurt anyone like I've heard in some countries that its mandatory for people of a certain age to enlist for so many years. Does anyone think that would fly in Canada or would it violate some human rights?


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## big bad john

armyrules said:
			
		

> This maybe a bit off topic but a little bit of military training never hurt anyone like I've heard in some countries that its mandatory for people of a certain age to enlist for so many years. Does anyone think that would fly in Canada or would it violate some human rights?



They call it a draft, and no since World War II it hasn't "flown" in Canada.


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## a78jumper

And NEVER did in Quebec.


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## patton

If the military is having a problem with recruiting people from it's own Country, maybe it is time for Canadians in general, to start supporting their troops by helping to increase its numbers, instead of verbal and political support.  Maybe it is time for Canadians to realize that 3 years of mandatory service (Regular and Reserve) be implemented.  Using landed Immigrants, to increase the Canadian Militarys numbers, is only a temporary solution, for a long term problem.  I feel that Canadians are finding it easy to sit at home saying they support their troops, but many Canadians are not educating themselves to find out what their troops are doing to support their fellow Canadians.  I feel that, people that are unemployed for longer than 12mnths and on the welfare system should be required to do 3 yrs, of mandatory service.  These are people that have been supported by the Canadian Public, Tax Payers and Government.  This could be one way that they return the favor.  Obviously only people that are able to meet the CF requiremnts should be considered, but this is a large demographic that has not been tapped into.  Yes,  there are Recruiters at Human Resource Centres across Canada, but at no point has CF service been made Mandatory, and I feel very strongly that it should.  This may not be a Recruitment solution, but it will get alot of people off of welfare!  This is my opinion on the recruiting problem.


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## patton

armyrules said:
			
		

> This maybe a bit off topic but a little bit of military training never hurt anyone like I've heard in some countries that its mandatory for people of a certain age to enlist for so many years. Does anyone think that would fly in Canada or would it violate some human rights?


As for human rights, you choose to live here, sometimes that requires people to do what the Government says.  I agree that a little bit of Military training never hurt anybody, it helps to build ones character.  Human Rights, I feel is one of those politically correct phrases poeple use to hide behind, so they doen't have to join.  The Canadian Military is one of the most diverse militaries in the world, and is teaching other countries like the States.


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## tomahawk6

patton said:
			
		

> As for human rights, you choose to live here, sometimes that requires people to do what the Government says.  I agree that a little bit of Military training never hurt anybody, it helps to build ones character.  Human Rights, I feel is one of those politically correct phrases poeple use to hide behind, so they doen't have to join.  The Canadian Military is one of the most diverse militaries in the world, and is teaching other countries like the States.



I think that I have to take issue with your last sentence. The US military is probably more diverse if you consider nationalities as we have 40,000 foreign born military personnel in the force. If you consider openly gay service members then Canada would have a leg up on the US as we dont allow openly gay service members.


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## patton

What I was referring to was the fact that many other countries have opted to use the Canadian military human rights model, or teaching programs to teach tolerance in the CF.  As far as numbers go, the American military has many more soldiers overall than the Canadian military does.  It is totally expected that they would have a larger amount of soldiers who are of different races.  If you take into consideration the size of the U.S. military, and compare it to the size of the Canadian military we are most likely averaging the same.


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## m410

I will not give orders to conscripts.

I'm all for landed immigrants in the military, with some bonus towards their citizenship.


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## TCBF

"This may not be a Recruitment solution, but it will get alot of people off of welfare!"

- Ever teach at a Recruit School?    2% of  your recruits will cause 98% of your headaches.  A lot of people are on welfare for medical (visible and non-visible) injuries and disorders that preclude them from being gainfully employed.  

Yes, not even by us.

Not their fault - but not our problem to solve, either.

The idea of conscription is to fill your ranks with the BEST material you can coerce off the streets, and select, assign, train and administer them in the most cost effective way possible.  Assess everyone - select the best.  Conscript armies in peacetime often have a higher general intelligence than volunteer armies do.  They also have a somewhat more robust system of military justice to keep their bright lads (who would much rather be smart outside the army than in it) from getting out of hand.

If you call the shots on who goes in, why not stack the team? 

We ain't an employment agency...


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## goodform

TCBF, agreed. 
You don't see many people downtown east side Vancouver (or anywhere for that matter) in lines for charity or welfare who would pass muster. I do think we should be more open to recruiting landed immigrants and commonwealth citizens, with options for citizenship after a certain service period. I was considering joining the british army for a time because of, all things considered, how easy it was. Heck, maybe as part of army transformation we can have a foriegn legion as well as slotting people into the usual spots? Just a thought, I'll start on the memo...


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## 1feral1

One of our officers is from Northern Ireland. Here he's a CAPT, a top bloke. For years when he lived in the UK, he tried to get into the British Army as an officer, but do to politics, and not 'knowing' the right connections, he could not, so after being disallusioned by his own government, he decided to migrate to Australia, where now, many years later, he has made is own family, and is well into his career as the officer that he always wanted to be. So, good on him, and others who have the 'ballz/gutz' to chase down their dreams, and make them reality. Life is just too short to sit around and only think of what you could be. In regards to this CAPT, Great Britian's loss was indeed Australia's gain.

It would be smart idea for Canada to poach/acquire quality desired personnel from other nations, for those that show promise with former service and/or desired qualities 

Cheers,

Wes


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## FastEddy

m410 said:
			
		

> I will not give orders to conscripts.
> 
> I'm all for landed immigrants in the military, with some bonus towards their citizenship.




Judging by your profile (or lack of it), it doesn't appear you are in any position to give orders to anyone let alone Conscripts.

Whereas the enrolment of landed Immigrants may be a possible solution to supplement the CF's recruitment quotes. If you factor in the Education, Psychical Standards, Patriotic Incentive and Security Checks, I imagine the number might not be all that impressive or significant.

And if those Standards are changed or lowered one iota to accommodate these individuals, then they should be applicable to All Canadian Citizens also.


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## m410

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Judging by your profile (or lack of it), it doesn't appear you are in any position to give orders to anyone let alone Conscripts.


Luckily having authority in the CF isn't held up by not filling out your army.ca profile.


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## PPCLI Guy

I joined the Reserves as a soldier in 1980 as a Landed Immigrant - and was commissioned before I became a citizen.  Seems to have all worked out so far....


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## 1feral1

m410 said:
			
		

> I will not give orders to conscripts.
> 
> I'm all for landed immigrants in the military, with some bonus towards their citizenship.



Hey M410, whats with the anti conscription issue? Soldiers are simply that, some good, while others tend to need to be proded, and those are not conscripts either. Either way in trg and operationally, ALL soldiers must make the mininum standard set. I have no problems giving direction to any trained soldier, regardless where he comes from. Reserve, regular or national service. Many conscripts have made their mark in history, and paid the price in blood like anyone else. They're not tainted as you seem to put them. Sounds like you've been watching too many movies.

I'd like to see you make your argument with some Viet Nam 'conscription' vets back in dear ole Australia (google 'Long Tan' for example), and just see how far you would get. I find your comment in bad taste, and an insult to all conscripts who fought in battles in The Great War (including those who were Canadians BTW) and beyond.

How about filling out your profile too, that would help.

Cheers,

Wes


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## GAP

I didn't see anybody arguing that I was subpar Marine (except my CO after a night of revelry) because I was a landed Immigrant to the US. There were far more *#ck ups and lazy sods than me, and they were all home grown. 

To boot, at no time did I ever say I was wanting or intending to make the US of A my home. I was adamant that as soon as my hitch was up I was going back to Canada. Nobody had a problem with that.


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## cameron

Re to Fast Eddy: What makes you think that recruiting landed immigrants would mean lowering standards in terms of physical and educational aptitudes.  Do not assume that just because someone comes from the developing world that their educational standards are lower.  "Third World" countries particularly many of those in the Commonwealth have some of the best educational institutions in the world.  The University of the West Indies, which was formerly a college of the University of London, of which I am a proud graduate (BA Honours in History w/Archaeology 2003), is held in very high esteem around the world, and the quality of education it delivers is considered on par with the best British universities, the same can be said for many universities in Africa and India (the latter provides many of the medical doctors who now work in US and Canadian hospitals).   The late Sir Arthur Lewis, the first governor of the Eastern Caribbean Central (ECCB) won a Nobel Prize for Economics.  And the ECCB, of which he was an architect, was used as a model for the European Central Bank (if you think i'm exaggerating, do the research yourself, hint: check back issues of the Economist magazine from the late '80's early 90's).  

As for physical ability, the track record of West Indians, East Indians and Africans in cricket, soccer and track and field etc. speaks for itself.  Bear in mind also that many immigrants to Canada, USA and the UK have proven themselves to be just as, if not more patriotic than 'born citizens'.  Visit any British Caribbean country and you shall see monuments to the hundreds of West Indians, who despite facing racism from colonial authorities volunteered to fight in both World Wars, many of them made the ultimate sacrifice .  I've never heard anyone question the patriotism of Canada's Haitian born Governor General.  I am a very proud and patriotic West Indian, when I receive Canadian citizenship, I will be just as proud and patriotic a Canadian .  I take umbrage with those who suggest that just because one is from a developing country that one cannot meet certain standards.


----------



## FastEddy

m410 said:
			
		

> Luckily having authority in the CF isn't held up by not filling out your army.ca profile.




Again Sir !, I put it to you, how would you know ?.


----------



## m410

Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) said:
			
		

> Hey M410, whats with the anti conscription issue? Soldiers are simply that, some good, while others tend to need to be proded, and those are not conscripts either. Either way in trg and operationally, ALL soldiers must make the mininum standard set. I have no problems giving direction to any trained soldier, regardless where he comes from. Reserve, regular or national service. Many conscripts have made their mark in history, and paid the price in blood like anyone else. They're not tainted as you seem to put them. Sounds like you've been watching too many movies.
> 
> I'd like to see you make your argument with some Viet Nam 'conscription' vets back in dear ole Australia (google 'Long Tan' for example), and just see how far you would get. I find your comment in bad taste, and an insult to all conscripts who fought in battles in The Great War (including those who were Canadians BTW) and beyond.


I think you've taken my few words in the wrong context.  I apologize for not being more clear.  I have no disrespect for former or current conscripts.  I have a disrespect for the system that conscripted them.  A conscript who has done honourable service to his nation has the respect I give all who serve.

Robert Heinlein put it best:



> I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United State.
> 
> Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery--and I don’t think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone--no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think it is shameful. _If a country can’t save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!_



Read the rest of this great speech (not about conscription) at http://firearmsrights.com/rah1961.htm.



> How about filling out your profile too, that would help.


All the best polemicists are anonymous.  Feel free to consider my arguments instead of my person.  If that is too much to ask, feel free to ignore me.  I won't hold it against you.


----------



## FastEddy

cameron said:
			
		

> Re to Fast Eddy:   I take umbrage with those who suggest that just because one is from a developing country that one cannot meet certain standards.




It is obvious you have misread or misinterpreted or at least taken my statements completely out of context.

For your clarification, at no time did I suggest that all Immigrants would not meet CF's Recruitment Standards. But those that did would not necessarily be of such significant numbers to fill the quotes aimed at.

Further, I stated that if Recruitment Standards were lowered or adjusted to accommodate those that did not meet the original standards, that they also be applicable to the rest of the population.

Just in passing, of all the Esteemed and Suggested Personage, how many have or are lining up to join the CF's. And by your comments, I presume it is your intention upon receiving your Citizenship, to immediately run down to the nearest CF's Recruitment Center ?.

As for suggested reading, you might acquaint yourself with the basic or common reasons for migration or immigration.


----------



## FastEddy

m410 said:
			
		

> All the best polemicists are anonymous.  Feel free to consider my arguments instead of my person.  If that is too much to ask, feel free to ignore me.  I won't hold it against you.




I reserve the right to reply, after I stop laughing.

I can't wait to see "Wes's" reply.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

m410 said:
			
		

> Robert Heinlein put it best:



Don't be quoting RAH without pointing out that he opined that the only way to win the franchise was to serve...


----------



## 1feral1

m410 said:
			
		

> I think you've taken my few words in the wrong context.  I apologize for not being more clear.  I have no disrespect for former or current conscripts.  I have a disrespect for the system that conscripted them.  A conscript who has done honourable service to his nation has the respect I give all who serve.
> 
> Robert Heinlein put it best:
> 
> Read the rest of this great speech (not about conscription) at http://firearmsrights.com/rah1961.htm.
> All the best polemicists are anonymous.  Feel free to consider my arguments instead of my person.  If that is too much to ask, feel free to ignore me.  I won't hold it against you.



Context? You said you would not give orders to conscripts. End of story. Some, although jr in rank may even out soldier you.

Don't try wiggling out of this mate. You made your bed, now lay in it.

Wes

EDIT: What is your military experience? Please enlighten us, as although you have been politely asked to fill out your profile, its still blank.


----------



## m410

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Don't be quoting RAH without pointing out that he opined that the only way to win the franchise was to serve...


Robert Heinlein put forward in _Starship Troopers_ that citizenship (and thus voting rights) should be earned instead of granted through heredity or intelligence.  Happy?  Do I have to do this every time I quote him, or just this once?



> Context? You said you would not give orders to conscripts. End of story. Some, although jr in rank may even out soldier you.


If I was assigned conscripts as subordinates I would resign.  After that all of them will out soldier me.



> Don't try wiggling out of this mate. You made your bed, now lay in it.


That's it.  I'm going to my made bed.  Good night.


----------



## 1feral1

m410 said:
			
		

> Robert Heinlein put forward in _Starship Troopers_ that citizenship (and thus voting rights) should be earned instead of granted through heredity or intelligence.  Happy?  Do I have to do this every time I quote him, or just this once?
> If I was assigned conscripts as subordinates I would resign.  After that all of them will out soldier me.
> That's it.  I'm going to my made bed.  Good night.



How are yo going to know they are conscripts, are you going to give them a badge denoting them such? What foolishness.

I see you don't even have enough intestinal fortitude to come to the party, and get into a debate, but judging by your GMK, I would say you have never served a day in your life.

Ya, go to bed and put your jammies on mate.

Remember its your own integrity you damage on here, and you are the only one to blame. Oh, before you turn the light out, please fill out your profile.

Wes


----------



## George Wallace

m410 said:
			
		

> Robert Heinlein put forward in _Starship Troopers_ that citizenship (and thus voting rights) should be earned instead of granted through heredity or intelligence.  Happy?  Do I have to do this every time I quote him, or just this once?


Actually, you seem to be waffling a lot.  Nice attempt at a comeback, but it doesn't confirm what you had stated earlier.  That or you have read another version of his books than the rest of us.  Your above statement is in agreement with our sentiments on RAH, but it is not what you stated in previous posts.


			
				m410 said:
			
		

> If I was assigned conscripts as subordinates I would resign.  After that all of them will out soldier me.


You really believe that?  Although I highly doubt that we will ever see Conscription again in Canada, I am of the opinion that you would best serve us by resigning now.  Your attitude towards the military and leadership seems flawed to me.  If you are willing to differentiate between conscripts and non-conscripts, what are your opinions on Race, Religion, Sex, Sexual Orientation and all the other personal characteristics of your soldiers?  It seems to me that you are going to face a multitude of problems in creating a cohesive and effective team, with the attitude that you have so far put forward.


			
				m410 said:
			
		

> That's it.  I'm going to my made bed.  Good night.


I doubt that sleep learning is effective, but you can give it a try.  As you continue with this argument, it would be nice to see where you are coming from.  As is, you are an inexperienced kid off the street trying to argue with seasoned soldiers, who have all been there, done that and of course got the t-shirts and scars to prove it.  You have nothing.  (I might add, that not all of their experience is tied to the CF, but includes service in Foreign militaries.)


----------



## civmick

Any country I have read about recently is moving away from mandatory service if they are moving at all.  Compulsory military service would create another legal industry which Canada needs like a hole in the head and a host of Clinton-style exemption clauses.  Instead you could let people choose serving as a reserve police officer, a coastguard serviceman, a firefighter, an Arctic Ranger etc.  In the military conscripts who opt for that option could do rear echelon taskings but not overseas - look at the fuss in the media about reservist casualties, imagine what it would be like if was a reservist conscript.  If a conscript wanted to switch to regforce or reserves during his three years fine but can't resign until the original 3 year commitment complete.

It's hard to say you should make people serve when existing conditions of reserve/regforce, particular job protection of reservists, is sorted.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

m410 said:
			
		

> I will not give orders to conscripts.
> 
> I'm all for landed immigrants in the military, with some bonus towards their citizenship.



Well after reading this thread complete, I would suggest this.

IF you are a member of the CF, then would you not do what anyone would do?  Which is what you are told to do??

Or face the consequences?  

You know, discinplinary action, admin action and release?

Or did it change suddenly, and I don't have to do what my CoC tells me to do?

Shake your head man...


----------



## FastEddy

civmick said:
			
		

> Any country I have read about recently is moving away from mandatory service




Would these Countries also be moving away from their Global Military commitments.

Are those Governments also increasing their Military Forces roles and commitments.

Are you saying its okay for our Volunteered Service personal to be killed and maimed, but those who would not serve their Country without being told to, should be posted to nice safe and cozy jobs.

I can reason and fathom the objections put forth by Serving or Ex Servicemen & Women on this subject , but I feel your objections are more of a personal nature and excuse why you shouldn't be required to Serve your Country, let alone die for it.


----------



## m410

Okay, I've been shouted down.  There's a saying that compares flame wars to the Special Olympics so I won't pursue this.  Thanks for the hostility!

For the record, I am currently serving, have some TI, and am in a position of modest authority.  I'm still not filling in my profile.

*pops smoke*
*reverses to cover*


----------



## geo

m410
you don't have to fill in all the details but a little bit of a pedigree always helps.


----------



## George Wallace

m410 said:
			
		

> Okay, I've been shouted down.  There's a saying that compares flame wars to the Special Olympics so I won't pursue this.  Thanks for the hostility!
> 
> For the record, I am currently serving, have some TI, and am in a position of modest authority.  I'm still not filling in my profile.
> 
> *pops smoke*
> *reverses to cover*



What can we say?  You reap what you sow.......If you insist on taking this track, expect to be treated accordingly.  We know nothing of your "TI" nor your position of "modest authority" so we will treat you as one of several things: a Cadet outside of his Lanes, a Gamer on the wrong Forum, a JTFNinjaSniperWannabe, a Civie, or perhaps just a Troll.  You insist on providing no credentials, and we treat you as having none.  If that is hostile, then that is the way you have asked to be treated.  Not our problem.


----------



## Osotogari

Yeah, at one time in the reserves you could be a landed immigrant.  One time one of my guys asked me if he could wear his DEUs to his citizenship ceremony to which the OC replied "Sure, at least you won't be a greasy foreigner anymore"

It wasn't a bad policy.  I had a couple of Africans with oustanding stalking and bushcraft abilities, but needless to say their first winter was... interesting.  The problem is background checks from countries with little to no infrastructure and/or ones that require baksheesh to answer any inquiry from the civil servants.  Another real problem, which goes to backgrounds, is people with previous foreign service in countries well-known for human rights abuses. Obviously there is other problems post-9/11 but I think that overall we are hurting ourselves by not letting landed immigrants apply, I get approached by them quite a bit at public recruiting displays.


----------



## goodform

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=d816ef60-c65f-4c9f-866a-a797606d8ee1

Anyone else hear of this? Saw it in the Province today.


----------



## geo

Was in the papers a couple of days ago... 
there's another thread on this topic.


----------



## wanaland

Hello I am a 21 year old Fit American male and I want to enlist in the Canadian Forces.Now I know about the lengthly immigration process and I am willing to deal with that as I have already begun it .Now what I want to ask is If i get my Perm Res status under a skilled worker, Would I be able to join?I do now have any prior service here in the States but I want to enlist as a Infantryman or a Combat Engineer in the Ca Forces.I am eligable for service here in the states but I want to move to Canada and be a soldier at the same time. So presto now you know why I am a healthy American wanting to leave the home of the Free and the Brave


----------



## wanaland

Also will it help with the immigration process if they know I want to join the military?


----------



## MikeL

For Regular Force you have to be a Canadian Citizen; I think its the same for the Reserves(since a few years ago?) but I'm not positive.

For 100% accurate and up to date info I'd check out www.forces.ca and email a recruiter.


----------



## wanaland

The Ca forces site is down "again" but anyways some were on there it says you can if you have a special skill or a job cant be filled by a citizen...I mean shit I wanna be a grunt..and there needed in every Army..expecially in the times we live in now.


----------



## MikeL

If you want to get into the Military/Infantry ASAP, etc why not just join the US Army or US Marines?


----------



## wanaland

I dont wanna sound to moral...but the canadians are fighting the real war on terror by being in the RIGHT COUNTRY...Nuff said


----------



## MikeL

Theres a lot of US Forces in Afghanistan aswell.


----------



## wanaland

Yeah Sf guys and Paratroopers but I dont have any say were I will go....and most of the people go to Iraq....But on another note can you awnser my question?


----------



## MikeL

wanaland said:
			
		

> Yeah Sf guys and Paratroopers but I dont have any say were I will go....and most of the people go to Iraq....But on another note can you awnser my question?



Look at my first reply


Oh an it isn't just SF an Airborne in Afghanistan.. I just got back and yea  there is a lot of SF guys(which you can try out for when you first join the Army) and Airborne(82nd Airborne was leaving when I arrived) but theres also plane jane Army Infantry there aswell plus all the US Marines.




Also, later on say if you do get into the Canadian Army and the Military sends you to some place you don't think we should be what are you gonna do?


----------



## wanaland

I dont wanna get my thread closed before I can get some USEFULL awnsers...


----------



## MikeL

wanaland said:
			
		

> I dont wanna get my thread closed before I can get some USEFULL awnsers...



Yea I gave you the info you wanted.  You need to be a Canadian Citizen to enlist in the Military.


----------



## wanaland

Like I said...Im not moral but I have several close family members in Iraq and they all say the same thing...and I am not going there so can we leave it at that?Im not joining the Us military...and If canada doent except me I might tryout for the FFL 


Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment 

So your wrong dude


----------



## MikeL

wanaland said:
			
		

> Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment
> 
> So your wrong dude



For the Reserves(I think they require citizenship though)?  Or is this the special skill thing?  Do you know that you have a special skill? And do you want to be employed in that?


----------



## Narcisse

You're right. 

Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment.

The thing is that your security verification during the enrolment process is going to be much longer because they are going to check everything x 2. Your Life here in Canada and your life in USA. Criminal file, where were you living, etc...


----------



## the 48th regulator

wanaland said:
			
		

> Like I said...Im not moral but I have several close family members in Iraq and they all say the same thing...and I am not going there so can we leave it at that?Im not joining the Us military...and If canada doent except me I might tryout for the FFL
> 
> 
> Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment
> 
> So your wrong dude



Sorry _you _ are wrong dude,


Basic Eligibility Requirements      


To be eligible for consideration for the Canadian Forces, you must meet the following minimal conditions: 

be a Canadian citizen; 
Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country. 


be 17 years of age (with parental/guardian consent) or older; 
junior level Military College applicants must be 16 years of age; 
you may be enrolled in the Reserves providing you are 16 years of age; 


meet the minimum education requirements for your entry plan and/or occupation; 
this can vary from Grade 10 (Sec III in Quebec) for combat arms occupations to a university degree for the Direct Entry Officer entry plan.  

What special skills do you have that they would require?  And for what it is worth the site is not down at this time.

http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/resources/howtojoin_en.aspx?bhcp=1

dileas

tess


----------



## aussiechangover

OK i actually have some useful info for you as i was permanent resident trying to enlist in the CF from another commonwealth country with previous military service. i was told the following it may have changed but i don`t think so.

reserves - i was told min of 5 years in the country (keep in mind you only need 3 for citizenship 1094 days combined)
Reg F - Canadian citizens only, even with the possibility of the citizenship waver program which may or may not still exist for skilled members, keep in mind i was ex military prior to even considering enlistment and was outright told no.

clearance issues - you have to provide 10 years of residence and employment details and have personnel references for people that have known you for at least 3 years if you don`t have that may take even longer. make copies of absolutely everything and even from criminal history checks that will need to be do, they will get lost or misplaced.

any other questions i`ll  see what i remember from all my issues prior to enlistment


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Hate to say it but you will have to endure the lengthy immigration process.

Plain infantryman (none of our infantry are plain BTW) does not count as a special skill.

By that they mean doctors, nurses, and highly technical trades. Those are the ones who, if they are perm. residents, may be enrolled under special circumstances.


----------



## medaid

From a recruiting stand point and what you have just provided, which is very little, you will NOT get into the CF, RegF or PRes PERIOD.

This is from a former recruiter.


----------



## ComdCFRG

If you are still thinking about joining the CF, you should either go to your local recruiting detachment/centre or get online and chat with one of the internet recruiters.  Make an application stressing your previous skills (provide documents if you have them to confirm your former service record with the US) and say you wish to be evaluated as a skilled applicant.

You never get what you don't ask for.


----------



## deelaws

Hi,

I just got my permanent resident after living in Canada for almost 7 years (I know eh). I have always wanted to join the Army. I am a third year computer science student at the University of Toronto. Now I read on the Canadian Forces recruiting site that a permanent resident will only be granted enrolment if the "Canadian Forces have need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced". Under my situation, considering my skill set as a Computer Scientist, do I have a fighting chance of joining the Army? I would like to join the Army Reserves; part-time. I don't know if this is the right place to ask the questions but I figured I'd rather start here than go to the recruiting centre. 

Any suggestions?

--Rambo


----------



## Michael OLeary

deelaws said:
			
		

> Any suggestions?



Suggestion #1:

Go talk to your local Recruiting Centre.  They will have the most up to date information applicable to a local recruitment into the Reserves.

Suggestion #2:

Ditch the "Rambo" sig.


----------



## deelaws

What's wrong with rambo? He's my Hero


----------



## mariomike

deelaws said:
			
		

> What's wrong with rambo? He's my Hero



Nothing wrong with that. But, when you tell adults that your superhero is a cartoon character, they might  will not take anything you say seriously.


----------



## KnightShift

After meeting some of the brave, strong men and women that serve in the CF....Rambo looks like a sissy  :nod:

Best of luck to you Deelaws, hope everything works out for you


----------



## FDO

As a Computer Science major you do not hold a skill that we have difficulty finding from Canadian Citizens. If you were a Medical Specialist or a Mlitary Pilot then we would look at your status. Unfortunatly we have lots of people applying with computer skills. 

Get your citizenship and we'd be glad to take an application.


----------



## deelaws

FDO said:
			
		

> As a Computer Science major you do not hold a skill that we have difficulty finding from Canadian Citizens. If you were a Medical Specialist or a Mlitary Pilot then we would look at your status. Unfortunatly we have lots of people applying with computer skills. .



Are you serious? That doesn't sound real because computer science has one of the lowest enrolment among all of the top programs among all universities. Very few people are majoring or specialising in that discipline compared to simple engineering.


----------



## gcclarke

deelaws said:
			
		

> Are you serious? That doesn't sound real because computer science has one of the lowest enrolment among all of the top programs among all universities. Very few people are majoring or specialising in that discipline compared to simple engineering.



Yes, I an assure you that he is indeed quite serious. Sufficient quantities of those "very few" people majoring in Comp Sci are joining the Forces to meet our needs. This is in part because we, as an organization, do not typically have much of our software development and programming done by our officers or NCMs. Most is done either by DND's public service employees, or contracted out to companies with the needed expertise. 

As for your dig against "simple" engineering, a related engineering degree is the *preferred *degree for many of the trades available.


----------



## Hedvig

I don't know about you guys, but if I remember correctly some time ago, I believe around April 2009, they actually opened up the doors for PR's as well. But only for a 3 months or so.
At that time when I went to the recruiting centre they were ready to sing me up.
I had final exam around that time so when I went back a month later I was told that it's not like that any more and that it was too much hassle for them dealing with.
Now that the citizenship process is taking double the time, if not more, I suck here. My only hope is if I can get somehow a documentation detailing for the Immigration that because of my application to the CF it would be great if they could speed up my process. 

I don't know where do I have to go to get an initiative on this issue, because there clearly something could be done about it.

CF really tries my persistency.

Cheers,
H.


----------



## goldenhamster

Hedvig (is this spelled like Harry Potter's owl Hedwig?)

Immigration processes can be daunting (most of the time anyway).   Just make sure when you are given your appointment date for citizenship test, you be there.  Request for another date can mean months of delay.   

Cheers,


----------



## Ex_RMP

2Lt Rousseau said:
			
		

> You're right.
> 
> Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment.
> 
> The thing is that your security verification during the enrolment process is going to be much longer because they are going to check everything x 2. Your Life here in Canada and your life in USA. Criminal file, where were you living, etc...



I'm a PR and completed my CFAT / Medical and Interview 21 Jul 09, I was informed during the int that my Security Clarence could take some months.  I submitted my application package in the beginning of Apr 09.

I was then informed (via a Friend in the know in Ottawa) that my clearance had come through, 23 JUL 09.

I guess it depends on your past history, how long it will take, I had served in the British Army since 16 years of age then left aged 34 got released while living in Canada and only had one job since, working security on a Cdn Mil base.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I know for a fact that a Landed Immigrant holds the rank of Capt in my unit and he's reg force.


----------



## George Wallace

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that a Landed Immigrant holds the rank of Capt in my unit and he's reg force.



So what!

Do you think that the CF will go on a "Witch Hunt" everytime a policy changes?  

Perhaps you should also think of/remember the clause that "if a Canadian can not fill the criteria" then allowances are made.

Your point is moot.


----------



## FDO

This will be my last entry on this topic. We've beat it to death. However to let everyone know we did a lot of back peddling and apologising when our headquarters directed us to stop processing Permanent Residents. To say this bit us in the A** would be an understatement. I have spent many hours with irate people in my office and on the phone over this. We were told the reason for the turn around was based on the Presecurity issue. If you have been in the country less than 10 years then it could take almost 2 years to do a background check on you plus you need a minimum of 5 years to get a level 1 security clearance. In that time you could get your citizenship. Add to that the problems we would have and the explaining we would have to do if we said that there are no jobs in the CF for citizens because non-citizens have the jobs. I shudder to think of the riots that would cause. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying its a real concern.

Very simply if you want to join the CF we'd be glad to have you. Our policy is to not turn away any Canadian Citizen who meets our entry requirements and we have a position for. No amount of complaining here is going to get it changed. That's what Members of Parliament are for.


----------



## CoolEJ

forces.ca needs to be updated with this. The waiver is still posted there.

Man, I wanted to fly upon landing! :warstory:


----------



## Otis

CoolEJ said:
			
		

> forces.ca needs to be updated with this. The waiver is still posted there.
> 
> Man, I wanted to fly upon landing! :warstory:



Where exactly are you finding this waiver? I just went and looked for it and couldn't find it ...

I DID however find the FAQ and the "How to Join" sections, both of which state immediately off the bat that you must be a Canadian Citizen to join.


----------



## azrealgelert

Hi all.

I have a real want to join the Canadian Army reserves I even know the regiment; The Loyal Edmonton Regiment.

I have a few questions.

I am British and came here 3 years ago as my wife is Canadian. I am Permanent Resident, and can apply for Citizenship in February; after that it takes a year to actually receive citizenship.

So I have some questions.

1 - Do I have to wait to receive Citizenship before I can apply?

2 - Is basic training still done on a reserve/part time basis? If not how is this achieved, my work will not let me take 10 weeks off work for basic training, plus I am a home student, so how can I study if away for 10 weeks? This is why I assume it is done on a part time basis. If so is basic training simply every evening? 

3 - And the big one.... 4 years ago....I had a MINOR heart op... I had palpitations so they burned away some blood vessels around my heart, and it was 100% success.  This op was MINOR, was in hospital for less then 24 hours.  Will this effect my application? My heart is FINE, it functions, and works like everyone else's.  there is 0 chance of it reoccurring. The surgery I had was call "Ablation surgery" feel free to look it up.

4 - Am I allowed to join the Loyal Edmonton Regiment? or will I be drafted to wherever they want to put me?

I am sure I will have a few more, so thanks in advance for anyone who can help me out!

Please do not judge me for being british and not Canadian.  since coming here 3 years ago, I love this country more than my homeland of England.  I want nothing more than to serve Canada while earning my degree so I can one day say, I helped protect this land, which I can call my own.

Thanks everyone

Richard
 :yellow:


----------



## CBH99

Hi there,

Welcome to the forum!!  I'll take the time to point you in the right direction, so you don't get hounded & discouraged from using the forum right off the bat.

Please use the search function, or look through the recruiting threads here in the forum.  A vast majority of your questions can be answered by using the search function, and looking through the recruiting threads.  (Also, the DND recruiting website has a TON of useful information, and a chat feature where you can speak directly to a recruiting officer.)

If the answer to your question is hard to come by, I strongly encourage you to call your local recruiting center or the national recruiting phone line.  Recruiting centers have the most up to date information about trades, openings, incentives, requirements, etc, etc.  And since they will be processing your application, its best to get the information straight from the horse's mouth. 

Please don't be discouraged of using this forum, as there are multitudes of great discussion and information available.  However, when it comes to recruiting questions like these, someone else is just going to tell you the same thing I did.

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## len173

1. You must be a citizen

2. BMQ (basic) can be done on a part time basis, generally on weekends. It is four weeks, not ten. This depends on your unit and what courses are being run during the year. If you can't get on a weekend BMQ, which is usually done in fall/winter, then you will be spending four weeks in exotic Wainwright. Your BMQ-Land and trades course will be full time, four weeks each. I have heard of weekend BMQ-Land, but it's rare. If your going LER, then your probably going infantry, and from what I understand, they are overhauling the whole training plan for Pres infantry after this summer, and it could just be one big course instead of two.

3. Nobody here can tell you how a medical issue is going to effect your application. Recruiting and the medical staff will make that decision during your application.

4. Yes, if you join the LER,  you are a member of that regiment until you decide you want to release, join a different unit, or go reg force.


----------



## azrealgelert

Thank you Jey!!

Slightly bummed out due to the citizenship part, but I had expected it.  But oh well, looks like I have just over a year before I can apply, which means I have a year to get in great shape.

 Even a year away, I am stoked, can't wait.

Thanks for your time answers my questions.

Richard
   :yellow:


----------



## len173

Very good plan. Everything is easier and less stressful when you are fit, especially on BMQ-Land and Infantry DP1. You don't wanna be the guy who asks the section commander to give his mortar to somebody else.


----------



## Kafir

Hey guys,

This is my first post and I'm not sure if my questions have been answered already, but I couldn't find answers (I probably just chose the wrong keywords):

I want to join the Army Reserves in Manitoba. I'm not a Canadian citizen, but I do have my permanent resident card. Now on the cf website it says, that "Citizens of another country with landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status may be considered when the CF has need of their skill, if the position cannot be filled by a Canadian and national interest would not be prejudiced". I do want to become a citizen, but it would take a year and I was wondering if could join the reserves now and then switch to regular forces as soon as I get my citizenship. I also read somewhere, that you have to live in Canada for at least five years to be able to join the reserves. Is that true? Because I've been living here for 4 years and 2 months.

It would be great, if someone could help me out.
Thank You


----------



## 2010newbie

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/doyouqualify-105



> To be eligible to apply to the Canadian Forces, you must meet the following three minimum requirements:
> 1.Be a Canadian Citizen
> 
> 2.Be 17 years of age (with parental or guardian consent) or older, except:
> •Regular Officer Training Plan – Junior applicants, who must be 16 years of age or older
> OR
> •Primary Reserve applicants, who must be 16 years of age or older
> 
> 3.Meet the minimum education requirements for your desired military occupation:
> •Grade 10 or Secondaire III in Quebec, and additional educational prerequisites as specified by the occupation



Here is a thread on permanent resident status as well...
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13555.0

Happy reading!!


----------



## FDO

Kafir said:
			
		

> "Citizens of another country with landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status may be considered when the CF has need of their skill, if the position cannot be filled by a Canadian and national interest would not be prejudiced".




You already answered your own question. Unless you have some unique skill and are applying for a position that can't be filled by a Canadian citizen then your going to have to wait.


----------



## Kafir

Retired FDO said:
			
		

> You already answered your own question. Unless you have some unique skill and are applying for a position that can't be filled by a Canadian citizen then your going to have to wait.



Yeah it's just that I read some other posts, where people say you can join the reserves without citizenship and then some say you have to have lived in Canada for at least five years ... I would appreciate it, if someone could clarify all this.


----------



## George Wallace

Kafir said:
			
		

> Yeah it's just that I read some other posts, where people say you can join the reserves without citizenship and then some say you have to have lived in Canada for at least five years ... I would appreciate it, if someone could clarify all this.



 :

The people that have been answering this topic have been in the Recruiting System as Recruiters.  They know what they are talking about.  If you read the posts here, and look at the dates they have been made, you will have your answer.  The answer will remain the same, no matter how many times you wish to ask the question.


----------



## b7197

Hi Kafir,

I was not a Canadian citizen when I applied first time. I did my medical, interview, and all papaer works. I was selllected as a andidate by my trade branch.
Unfortunately, I could not get an offer.Iwas told that the CF  does not hire any permanant resident more. Instead of that, I was suggested to reapply to the reserves and was recommended to applywaiver of the Citizenship Requirement through the branch. I got a letter of citizenship waiver from the the CF Recruiting Group HQ. I reapplied with the letter to the reserve. I am just waiting for my swearing in ceremony.

Kafir, you have to remember 'Retired FDO's' recommendation. "Unless you have some unique skill and are applying for a position that can't be filled by a Canadian citizen then your going to have to wait. " It is the key.


----------



## Mudshuvel

Hey all,

my wife was a US Marine, she was 'kicked out' during their version of Basic Training because she hurt her ankle. Mind you, the USMC at Parris Island didn't want to put up really with recoursing, so she left and went back home. She came up here and hooked up with me, don't judge her for that , but off the tops of your heads, what type of scrutiny would she face for that IF she were to apply for PRes.

Thanks!


----------



## George Wallace

The only scrutiny she will face will be: 

Does she meet the already stated criteria to join the CF?


































HOW MANY TIMES do we have to say this?


----------



## Kafir

b7197 said:
			
		

> Hi Kafir,
> 
> I was not a Canadian citizen when I applied first time. I did my medical, interview, and all papaer works. I was selllected as a andidate by my trade branch.
> Unfortunately, I could not get an offer.Iwas told that the CF  does not hire any permanant resident more. Instead of that, I was suggested to reapply to the reserves and was recommended to applywaiver of the Citizenship Requirement through the branch. I got a letter of citizenship waiver from the the CF Recruiting Group HQ. I reapplied with the letter to the reserve. I am just waiting for my swearing in ceremony.
> 
> Kafir, you have to remember 'Retired FDO's' recommendation. "Unless you have some unique skill and are applying for a position that can't be filled by a Canadian citizen then your going to have to wait. " It is the key.



So just to make this clear: You tried getting into the regular forces without citizenship, but they told you to try the reserves. What you are saying is, that I could join the reserves, but I need a special skill or the position can't be filled by a Canadian citizen? Sorry, I'm just a little confused. Would it be a good idea to go to a recruiting center and just talk someone there, or would that be a waste of time?


----------



## George Wallace

Do you have a "Special Skill" that no Canadian may have?  Is there a requirement for that "Special Skill" in the CF?  Can you get a Security Clearance?  (READ topics on Security Clearances.)

If you want to join the Infantry, I can assure you that you don't fill any special requirement that would warrant a Waiver.

If you are a Nuclear Physicist and want to become an Engineer Officer specializing in Nuclear Propulsion and there are no qualified Canadians for that position (if it exists), then you may be lucky enough to earn a Waiver to join.  

Does this clarify the criteria for you at all?


----------



## Mudshuvel

Sorry George,

what I meant to ask, is that since she was in the USMC, some of the papers to her release she's not able to gain access to. I was being hurried off the computer before I finished that post. I meant to say that since she was part of the American military, are there any extra hoops to that or provided we have copies of the release, it would be the same as a Canadian civvie applying.


----------



## George Wallace

Mudshuvel said:
			
		

> Sorry George,
> 
> what I meant to ask, is that since she was in the USMC, some of the papers to her release she's not able to gain access to. I was being hurried off the computer before I finished that post. I meant to say that since she was part of the American military, are there any extra hoops to that or provided we have copies of the release, it would be the same as a Canadian civvie applying.



Again; if she meets the criteria to join the CF, there is are no problems.  I have had US Marines in my Reserve Unit in the past.  I have known several people who have been in the British Forces who have joined the CF as Regs or Reservists.  There have been members of other nations militaries join the CF.  I have a member working for me who was a Bulgarian Conscript, and another who was a Romanian Conscript.  The answer is still the same: DO THEY MEET THE CRITERIA to join the CF?


----------



## Otis

Let me add to George's answer:

As a former member of a foreign military, she will not only be required to provide proof of the minimum requirements to join the CF (Age, Citizenship, Education) but she WILL have to provide proof of honourable release from said foreign service (what would happen, should she actually be AWOL from the USMC and they walk onto the Cdn ship in Pearl Harbour to arrest a member of the CF!)

Also, as a former (possibly currently duel) citizen of the US, she will need to provide a criminal record search from the FBI to the recruiting center (they are reluctant to share info on US citizens on the subject)


----------



## Khurram

Greetings,

I am Major Khurram Nawaz Malik, aging 37 from Pakistan Army Cavalry Regiment. After successful immigration process i will be landing at Calgary as a PR card holder with in 2-3 months. I have 16 yrs of Security & Law enforcement experience at my disposal. More over i also have experience in Operations against insurgency & terrorism, HR/Admin and transport maintenance. I have sufficient mandatory military/civilian qualification at my disposal.(details can be provided if required).

To join a military or military related service is my earnest desire due to honor and prestige.

You are requested to pls guide/advise me as to which field i may join, in what ever state/city.Pls do let me know the procedure as well.

Awaiting a positive encouraging reply.

Regards
Major Khurram Nawaz Malik


----------



## JorgSlice

You need to be a Canadian Citizen. If you are not, you must wait until you have gained Citizenship before you can apply to the Canadian Forces.


----------



## 57Chevy

Some answers can be found here

http://www.vcds-vcemd.forces.gc.ca/cic/ha-ci/hta-se-eng.asp

Basic Eligibility Requirements

To be eligible for consideration for the Canadian Forces, you must meet the following minimal conditions:
* be a Canadian citizen; •Citizens of another country who have landed immigrant (Permanent Resident) status in Canada may also be considered for enrolment when the CF has need of their skill, when the position cannot be filled by a Canadian citizen, and if the national interest would not be prejudiced. However, only under exceptional circumstances will authority be granted to enrol a citizen of another country.

*be 18 years of age;
*have a high schooldiploma or equivalent.


----------



## Khurram

Thankx indeed for the reply....I would like to seek guidance as to what field or education should i adopt for my future endeavors being a military officer. Because i guess choosing a profession after landing for a military officer is difficult as compared to professional......Therefore i would like to seek candid opinion for selecting a line which could be close enough to my profession...........Pls put me wise and show me the path to excell and flourish.

Awaiting an encouraging reply.


Regards
Major Khurram


----------



## Allgunzblazing

Good day Major Malik, 

First of all - all the best for your new home country. 

Now for your question about applying to join the CF as a PR. I can shed some light on this topic. This info was given to me by recruiting staff when I had approached them as a PR - 

Before the Recruiting Centre can accept your application, a non-citizen needs to be granted a citizenship waiver. This is done by the Commandant (an officer of the rank of Commodore/ MGen) of the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group. The address is Canadian Forces Recruiting Group Headquarters, 53 Colonel Road, Canadian Forces Base Borden, PO Box 1000 Station Main, Borden ON L0M 1C0. 

Along with a covering letter, you will be required to send a CV, the format of which has to be as following - 

1. Previous names;
2. Date of birth;
3. Place of birth;
4. List of all addresses lived at since birth;
5. Names and addresses of all immediate family members;
6. Reason for relocation to Canada;
7. Date of arrival in Canada;
8. Port of entry;
9. Date on which permanent residence was granted;
10. Education (list of all degrees/ diplomas along with the year and awarding institution and the Canadian equivalency. For this you can contact - http://www.cicic.ca/383/foreign-credential-recognition.canada. I suggest you start the credential evaluation process right away because it does take a few month. Mine took four months);
11. Area of specialization;
12. Employment;
13. Additional training and certification;
14. Volunteer experience;
15. Clubs/ organization/ community groups you belong to. 

I don`t want to get your hopes up because I had not received any reply. The recruiting staff had told me not expect anything because as per them, citizenship waivers are granted only in the rarest of rare circumstances. 

When you are in Canada, you can speak with the recruiting staff. They will give you the best and most up-to-date information. In the meantime, you could send an email to jobs@forces.ca. 

All the information is as per my experience and what was told to me. 

All the best.


----------



## Khurram

Thankx for the nice piece of credible information.....

Which field of study normally adopted by the ex military service immigrants ?

Which profession is more suitable for military immigrants to excell ?

Regards


----------



## The_Falcon

Citizenship waivers are rare and I wouldn't suggest contacting CFRG HQ directly.  I would suggest getting you get citizenship first and then be prepared to wait  quite some time for any security assessment to be completed prior to joining, as well the assessment may preclude certain occupations.


----------



## Khurram

What else profession would be more suitable to adopt then......?


----------



## secondchance

You can choose any profession according your skills which doesn't demand having Canadian citizenship. 
For immigration to Canada I used program "Skilled workers and professionals" and I had interview in Canadian Embassy with immigration officer where he told me about employment in Canada. If you used the same program I believe immigration officer told you that you can not be military in Canada with PR card and you should wait till getting citizenship.
If you would like to be member of Canadian Forces you should wait about 4  ( 3 years living in Canada + about 1 year of citizenship application) years and after getting citizenship you can apply.
In my case I applied  next week after getting citizenship. Of course if National Defence decided that they need you - you can get job quickly.
But in most cases you should wait citizenship and start also from Basic Training as people who didn't have military experience. It is reality.
Also  security check can take up  to 18 months. It is big issue for non-born Canadians. My security check took 12 months.
i didn't want to to discourage you but I prefer to say things in reality. 
Good luck!


----------



## JohnSmith27

I am currently a Permanent Resident living in Canada, I have lived here as a PR for 3 years, and have sent an application to for my Citizenship. Usually this process takes 1-2 years.. Would I be able to enlist in the Army while in the process or would I need to wait until I receive my Citizenship? Would they be able to speed up my process if I attempt to enlist?


----------



## ModlrMike

JohnSmith27 said:
			
		

> I am currently a Permanent Resident living in Canada, I have lived here as a PR for 3 years, and have sent an application to for my Citizenship. Usually this process takes 1-2 years..



Good for you, and welcome. The search feature at the top of the page would have given you the answers to your questions. None the less, I'll provide some insight. Just don't make a habit of not searching, it's considered bad form here.



> Would I be able to enlist in the Army while in the process or would I need to wait until I receive my Citizenship?



No. In order to apply, one needs to be a Citizen. 
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/howtoapply-106



> Would they be able to speed up my process if I attempt to enlist?



No, refer back to answer one.


----------



## JohnSmith27

I have searched and I have found different answers, There are answers like yours saying I cannot until I become a citizen, and there are some saying that you can as a PR for reserves, or get a waiver. As for my current situation in regards to my application being in the process, nothing was addressed to this particular situation.


----------



## MikeL

I believe non citizens could join the Reserves at one time,  but the current rules say you require citizenship to join the Regular Force and Reserves.  Going off the official website that ModlrMike linked above _*my guess*_ would be no,  your application would not be processed unless you are a citizen.  Talk to your local CFRC to confirm as they will give you the official answer,  I can just offer a guess.  Nor do I believe wanting to join the CF will speed up you getting citizenship.




> WHO CAN APPLY:
> 
> *To apply to the Canadian Forces, you must:
> Be a Canadian Citizen.*
> Be 17 years of age, with parental consent, or older, except:
> Regular Officer Training Plan – Junior applications must be 16 or older.
> Have completed at least Grade 10 or Secondaire IV (in Quebec).
> Certain entry programs and occupations require higher levels of education.


http://www.forces.ca/en/page/howtoapply-106


----------



## ModlrMike

JohnSmith27 said:
			
		

> I have searched and I have found different answers, There are answers like yours saying I cannot until I become a citizen, and there are some saying that you can as a PR for reserves, or get a waiver. As for my current situation in regards to my application being in the process, nothing was addressed to this particular situation.



The reference I supplied comes from the official page. It's pretty black letter leaving no room for interpretation or "particular situations". If in doubt, go to a Recruiting Centre. They'll certainly provide the best information of the subject.


----------



## Allgunzblazing

JohnSmith, 

I had the same confusion that you have - forces.ca says that citizenship is required to join the Forces (even the Resserves), however the websites of certain Reserve units say that PRs may apply. I had contacted each of those units. Some got back to me, some didn't. The ones that did get back, told me that they accept Canadian citizens only. As per the Recruiting Centre, a Citizenship Waiver is possible if one is a specialist. 

My file was reopened (long story), once I had got my letter from CIC inviting me for the citizenship ceremony. They will not accept your application anytime before. (This was my experience).


----------



## secondchance

Only having citizenship.My experience - I applied next day after Citizenship ceremony. You can prepare all files before,but when you apply you must provide original of Citizenship Certificate.Good luck!


----------



## Ostrozac

I have seen a few citizenship waivers processed in the last few years -- all of them were for people who were veterans of their respective home country's military, and the waivers were processed in order for the CF to take advantage of that experience. Some skills are in short supply.


----------



## mariomike

JohnSmith27 said:
			
		

> Would I be able to enlist in the Army while in the process or would I need to wait until I receive my Citizenship?



"Recruting of Permanent residents":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13555.0.html
3 pages


----------



## The_Falcon

1) You need to be a Citizen to apply.
2) Reserve websites saying PR Status is acceptable are out of date, since most sites don't have full time webmasters. 
3) Waivers for citizenship are only granted in EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, there are already numerous threads/posts on what is consider exceptional.


----------



## CXD

Are there any options for me in the Canadian Military?


----------



## Teen_Cadet

Well the Canadian Forces does have combat engineers.
Edited for spelling*


----------



## PuckChaser

Your option is to enroll like everyone else, although your prior service may give you a leg up. You will also need your Canadian Citizenship before you can apply.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Teen_Cadet said:
			
		

> Well the Canadian Forces does have combat engineers.
> Edited for spelling*



Huh, things you learn on the internet, guess it's not just for porn any more.


----------



## TYLERgibson

:facepalm:





			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Huh, things you learn on the internet, guess it's not just for porn any more.



This isn't a porn site? Oh..


----------



## GAP

Artyman said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> This isn't a porn site? Oh..



well......there is a little "gun porn"...pretty racy stuff..........and we have cookies too!!  :nod:


----------



## CXD

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Your option is to enroll like everyone else, although your prior service may give you a leg up. You will also need your Canadian Citizenship before you can apply.



What about reserves since I'm unable to apply for citizenship until I've been a permanent resident for 3 years?


----------



## jwtg

CXD said:
			
		

> What about reserves since I'm unable to apply for citizenship until I've been a permanent resident for 3 years?



Right from the forces.ca website:


> _
> Who can apply:
> 
> To apply to the Canadian Forces, you must:
> 
> Be a Canadian Citizen.
> Be 17 years of age, with parental consent, or older, except:
> Regular Officer Training Plan – Junior applications must be 16 or older.
> Have completed at least Grade 10 or Secondaire IV (in Quebec).
> Certain entry programs and occupations require higher levels of education.
> 
> 
> 
> Joining the Reserves
> 
> If you are interested in joining the Reserves, your first step is to contact one of your local Reserve units to find out which positions are available and then apply online. Your local recruiting centre will process your application and ensure that you complete the required steps of the application process. Reserve applicants are required to pass a physical fitness test before being selected. *All other steps of the application process are the same as for the Regular Force*.
> 
> Once you have been evaluated and the application process is complete, your local Reserve unit decides to issue a job offer. Not everyone who applies for a job in the Reserves will get one. It all depends on job availability._



These are simple questions which you can find answers to either by looking on the internet (that took me 3 seconds), or asking a recruiting center if you have complicated personal circumstances.


----------



## mariomike

CXD said:
			
		

> What about reserves since I'm unable to apply for citizenship until I've been a permanent resident for 3 years?



Recruting of Permanent residents  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13555.0
See reply #67.


----------



## CXD

Yes, I've seen both links before posting. I guess I was hoping for more than ask a local recruiter.

Thanks nonetheless.


----------



## SupersonicMax

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Your option is to enroll like everyone else, although your prior service may give you a leg up. You will also need your Canadian Citizenship before you can apply.



Not always.  I know a few officers that have a residency and fly the CF-18.  But those are exceptions, rather than the norm.  They were fighter pilots in their country.


----------



## The_Falcon

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Not always.  I know a few officers that have a residency and fly the CF-18.  But those are exceptions, rather than the norm.  They were fighter pilots in their country.



They are exceptions and were recruited under very special circumstances.  IE The UK is down sizing their military, and we require skilled and experienced pilots for our airframes and to be instructors.  Also every single one of them would have been given letters from the CDS, with explicit instructions on how long they have until they MUST obtain citizenship, or the WILL be released.


----------



## 6327Farag

I left Canada in 2007 after moving there is 2003. I joined the British army in 2009 and left earlier this year with an honourable discharge and exemplary conduct. Now that i am out the forces i really miss it but re enlisting in the UK forces is next to impossible at the moment with the army 2020 changes all coming into effect.
Could i join the Canadian forces my family has all stayed in Canada and become citizens however i left 2 months before taking my citizenship test(stupid i know) as i had my heart set on joining my local regiment back home.
I have read through some threads on here and seen that it is possible but only for certain trades etc. The problems i would have first and foremost is i have not meet residency requirements although as i understand from speaking to other people is that i am still considered a permanent resident until i either renounce it or it is taken from me by immigration on arrival in Canada( Which has never happened during visits). Secondly i was in the infantry as a gunner in a rifle section and later a 2ic i have operational experience in Afghanistan and the Falkland islands but is this enough? is there a list of occupations and skills required from non citizens or is it down to commanders discretion?
so in short is it worth my while applying as a permanent resident with relevant experience or is it likely to be canned? 
any information would be greatly appreciated!

Kind regards


----------



## The_Falcon

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> 1) You need to be a Citizen to apply.
> 
> 3) Waivers for citizenship are only granted in EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES, there are already numerous threads/posts on what is consider exceptional.



Right above your post.  I don't know what you didn't understand about either of those sentences.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Not his fault,...I merged his question with this thred.
Bruce


----------



## The_Falcon

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Not his fault,...I merged his question with this thred.
> Bruce



Still means no effort to search was made though, so you are absolved


----------



## Pusser

6327Farag said:
			
		

> I left Canada in 2007 after moving there is 2003. I joined the British army in 2009 and left earlier this year with an honourable discharge and exemplary conduct. Now that i am out the forces i really miss it but re enlisting in the UK forces is next to impossible at the moment with the army 2020 changes all coming into effect.
> Could i join the Canadian forces my family has all stayed in Canada and become citizens however i left 2 months before taking my citizenship test(stupid i know) as i had my heart set on joining my local regiment back home.
> I have read through some threads on here and seen that it is possible but only for certain trades etc. The problems i would have first and foremost is i have not meet residency requirements although as i understand from speaking to other people is that i am still considered a permanent resident until i either renounce it or it is taken from me by immigration on arrival in Canada( Which has never happened during visits). Secondly i was in the infantry as a gunner in a rifle section and later a 2ic i have operational experience in Afghanistan and the Falkland islands but is this enough? is there a list of occupations and skills required from non citizens or is it down to commanders discretion?
> so in short is it worth my while applying as a permanent resident with relevant experience or is it likely to be canned?
> any information would be greatly appreciated!
> 
> Kind regards



I would suggest you talk to a recruiting centre to get the best answers.  Yes, all the literature says you have to be a citizen to apply, BUT there IS a waiver process and a waiver is indeed possible (I've know a number of folks who have been waived).  I've also known enough people in the CF who have come over from the British Armed Forces (including some whose only previous connection to Canada was a posting to BATUS) to realize that many things are possible.  Only the recruiting centre can tell you for sure where things stand right now (and don't pay attention to the naysayers who are admonishing you for not understanding clear statements - they're not that clear).  Much of this will depend on the state of the occupation(s) in which you're interested.

Another thing you should do is check on your citizenship status.  You did live here for a number of years before you went back to the UK, so you may be close to meeting the residency requirement for citizenship (if you haven't already achieved it).  In other words, you may be just a test and ceremony away from citizenship (or close to it).  If that's the case, I would suggest concentrating on becoming a citizen and forget the waiver.

On another note, you should be aware that when you do join the CF, your British Army time is likely pensionable under the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act (CFSA - our pension plan) and will also count toward your future award of the Canadian Forces Decoration (our LS&GC medal).

Good luck.


----------



## The_Falcon

Pusser said:
			
		

> I would suggest you talk to a recruiting centre to get the best answers.  Yes, all the literature says you have to be a citizen to apply, BUT there IS a waiver process and a waiver is indeed possible (I've know a number of folks who have been waived)



Do you currently, or have you previously worked in recruiting?  If the answer is no, then you are talking out your ass.  Waivers are granted in EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES (ie for skilled applicants applying for in demand highly technical occupation, ie Pilots). What happened in years previous is not the case now, as it is not just DND involved in the waiver process.


----------



## Pusser

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Do you currently, or have you previously worked in recruiting?  If the answer is no, then you are talking out your ***.  Waivers are granted in EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES (ie for skilled applicants applying for in demand highly technical occupation, ie Pilots). What happened in years previous is not the case now, as it is not just DND involved in the waiver process.



No I don't work in recruiting, but I'm guessing neither do you.  I never said that getting a waiver was easy.  I simply said it was possible.  Even if it's possible only under exceptional circumstances, it is STILL possible.  Neither you nor I have any idea what specialist skills the man in question brings to the table or the current manning state of any of the occupations in which he's interested.  The only folks who can really find the answers to his questions are in recruiting, which I've pointed I've also stated.  I don't think that constitutes talking out of my ***.


----------



## The_Falcon

Pusser said:
			
		

> No I don't work in recruiting, but I'm guessing neither do you.  I never said that getting a waiver was easy.  I simply said it was possible.  Even if it's possible only under exceptional circumstances, it is STILL possible.  Neither you nor I have any idea what specialist skills the man in question brings to the table or the current manning state of any of the occupations in which he's interested.  The only folks who can really find the answers to his questions are in recruiting, which I've pointed I've also stated.  I don't think that constitutes talking out of my ***.



I was in recruiting prior to my current job.  And I can tell you unless prior arrangements have been made (which is what was going on with Pilots from the UK), the likelihood of non-citizen application making it past the initial screening is nil, in fact at CFRC Toronto (other than the aforementioned Pilots, who applied directly to a staff officer in NDHQ) we had ZERO files come to us, for a non-citizen waiver.  Which is why there is scant mention of citizenship waivers in official sources.  Even the official recruiting site doesn't mention waivers, which should be a pretty big clue to how possible it is in obtaining one.  It's possible to win the jackpot in the lottery or on a slot machine, but the reality of either happening is beyond remote.  Same thing here.  You know what guarantees your application being looked at....being a citizen.


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## Pusser

So if you haven't seen it, it's not possible. OK.  That's pretty presumptuous.  I like that in a fighter pilot. 

According to our profiles, I've got more years of service than you have on the planet.  I've also been in a number of staff jobs over the years where issues of this nature have been dealt with at levels well above your pay grade.  I also have a lot of experience in administration and policy.  But what do I know?

Simply put, there are few absolutes in life.  If the regulations allow flexibility, then flexibility exists.  I know several people, whom I can name, who are not pilots and who have received waivers.  Waivers are not necessarily granted to people who have special skills.  They can be granted to people who have skills that are in short supply as well.  Pilots are not the only ones who have these.  They're just the most popular flavour at the moment. 

I stand by my assertion that although it may be difficult, it is not impossible to obtain a waiver.  And a simple calculation of odds will show that the chances of doing so are considerably better than that of winning the lottery.  Does the OP have a chance?  I have no idea, but neither do you.  However, I'm not willing to anonymously crush his hopes.  That's the recruiting centre's job ;D.   His chances may be remote, but there is still a chance.    The bottom line is that he needs to do some research and ask the right people.


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## The_Falcon

Pusser said:
			
		

> So if you haven't seen it, it's not possible. OK.  That's pretty presumptuous.  I like that in a fighter pilot.
> 
> According to our profiles, I've got more years of service than you have on the planet.  I've also been in a number of staff jobs over the years where issues of this nature have been dealt with at levels well above your pay grade.  I also have a lot of experience in administration and policy.  But what do I know?



You know how to be a condescending twat that's for sure.  When the recruiting folks tells him no, they ain't going to grant a waiver, perhaps you can be the one to help huh. :


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## Pusser

:facepalm:

_"There are more things on heaven and earth Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosphy." _ (Hamlet Act1, Scene 5)

You can call me condescending if you like, but you should probably take a look in the mirror.  I started off by providing factual information.  You forcefully provided your opinion in a rather condescending manner yourself.  If I am guilty of any transgression is of stooping to your level.

Maybe the answer will be no, but then again maybe it won't.  The fact is, flexibility does exist, but you're telling him not to even bother trying.  That's not really in line with my view of the military ethos, so I decided to speak up.  Soldiers are normally to be commended for trying hard and using every means available to achieve their aim.  I'm sure the CDS appreciates you speaking on his behalf:

*QR&O 6.01*

_(1) In order to be eligible for enrolment in the Canadian Forces as an officer or non-commissioned member, a person must:

a. be a Canadian citizen, *except that the Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may authorize the enrolment of a citizen of another country * if he is satisfied that a special need exists and that the national interest would not be prejudiced thereby;_

Yes, it may be a long shot, but somebody does usually win the lottery as well.


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## The_Falcon

Finally got a hold of the FOI request I made (had it sent to my friend in Canada vice me in the sandbox).  No opinion, just hard data, over the last 6 years (CFRG doesn't have any data for waivers granted prior to 2008) the recruitment of non-citizens has been less than 1% (avg is about .03 %) 

link below for anyone interested. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwB6kEkHZm3gVWllRWlNTnVBS2c/


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## Tibbson

:Jedi:

What this place really needs is a smiley with a ruler and we can use it to find out who in this debate has the biggest ****.


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## The_Falcon

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> :Jedi:
> 
> What this place really needs is a smiley with a ruler and we can use it to find out who in this debate has the biggest ****.



 :

I guess providing actual factual data/information isn't beneficial for those people who may have an interest in attempting this route.  Letting them go off of opinion is a much better idea.


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## Ram2014

I've searched the forum and read a lot of threads before posting this one. I saw some info on google but I believe it was old (2009) so I hope there would be updates. 


1. Are landed immigrants allowed to join or do they have to get permanent residency or citizenship first? 

2. What documents are needed? (ex. Security clearances, medical docus, education etc) 

3. Is there a minimum number of years required of living in Canada before applying? 

Hoping there is someone kind enough to give any info. 

By the way, I don't have access to be able to talk to a recruiter as I just sent my application to Québec under the Federal skilled worker immigrant visa. I'm still here in the Philippines working as a nurse. 

I'm hoping to get a reply from the Quebec embassy within six months. 

Thank you.


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## Michael OLeary

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#who



> *To apply to the Forces, you must:*
> 
> *Be a Canadian Citizen.*
> Be 17 years of age, with parental consent, or older, except:
> Regular Officer Training Plan – Junior applications must be 16 or older.
> Have completed at least Grade 10 or Secondaire IV (in Quebec).
> Certain entry programs and occupations require higher levels of education.


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## Ram2014

Ah, the info I saw must have been old. It said there were exceptions for foreigners with permanent residency. Thanks


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## The_Falcon

You didn't search you were just being lazy as there is an exsisting thread IN THIS SUB-FORUM, called "Recruitment of Permanent Residents", and it does in fact have very recent information in it.   Read more, post less.

Locked. 

HM 

Staff


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## vara787

Hi all

First of all, I am new to the forums and would like to introduce myself and thank in advance for any help I would be getting. 

I am not enlisted in the CA armed forces, but I am in the process of acquiring the permanent resident status in Canada (I am qualified). I come from central Europe and once in Canada, I believe it is only fair that I would do my share of thanking the country for accepting me as a future citizen, by enlisting. I therefore have a few questions at hand. I currently hold an American University bachelor degree, am 31 years old, and have a pilot background (airline and executive pilot). I am not interested in the Air Force (most likely I am too old anyway), but what interests me (since a child) is the Navy. 

I understand that non-CA citizens that can legally live and work in Canada, are allowed to join but as non-officers, I hope I am correct here. I also read on the CA Armed forces website, that there is a fast track program for obtaining CA citizenship faster that way. My long term plan is a full career as a Navy Officer, preferably to have a leadership position in ships. As an ex-airline pilot I had a great time working in teams, I never had any problems and was always liked and respected by my fellow crew, and the captain in charge (I was always an FO/co-pilot). People kept telling me that I had what it takes to be a good leader and frankly, I never understood why, I was just being myself, fair with others and always see things from all perspectives. 

What would you recommend I do? Enlist as a cadet, participate in the fast track (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/cit-armed-forces.asp) and is there a possibility after I acquired the CA citizenship, to be transferred for officer training? By that point I would be having my bachelor of science degree in Aeronautics from a US University, 5 years of Airline pilot experience and for sure a validated CA commercial pilot license (although my interests lay in the navy, hobby wise I will for sure still fly from time to time), and I assume I would be having experience as a non-Officer as well. I am also an Advanced Open Water diver but I dive only as a hobby. 

Basically, would I be able to join the Canadian Navy as a non Officer, and then once having CA Citizenship, enter Officer school? Also, I saw there are many positions in the Navy to enter. Recommendations and suggestions are very welcome, remember, I would like in the future to be working on deck on leadership positions of ships, such as a ship captain. Once I enter without a CA Passport but with my resident permit, what path do you suggest I should take? I have had a long look at the official forces.gc.ca website and am a bit confused as to what route to take. At one point, the Navy Boarding Party interested me. I am by no means wanting to maybe join that unit because of thinking I am Rambo, but rather thought that specialty would give me experience operating in teams, help me enhance my leadership knowledge/critical thinking/working under stress etc, which would ultimately be very beneficial for a future post as an officer on a ship. Maybe this sounds not rational and makes no sense, I might be a bit naive to how things work in the armed forces due to my lack of experience in the military.

One of the only concerns I have is that I would be around 32-34 years of age upon enlisting. Would I be too old? As for medical condition, so far I am completely fit, no disabilities whatsoever, for now at least I am still winning the battle against age 

Again, many thanks in advance. Although I am not Canadian yet, I appreciate your service that you do for your country and humanity.

Vara


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## AmmoTech90

The age isn't a concern if you are fit.  32-34 is not uncommmon.

Do not expect to be enrolled at all if you are not a citizen unless you bring some much needed skills from the Austrailian, British, New Zealand, or US military (YMMV with others but dont expect much).  The citizenship form you refer to is if you are already a member (or former member) of the CF, you have to manage to be enrolled as a permanent resident and that is not easy.


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## DAA

vara787 said:
			
		

> I am not Canadian yet,



That makes things pretty simple.  You can't apply to the CF unless you are a Canadian Citizen.

There are exceptions made from time to time, but these are very rare and require extensive prior military service/training as mentioned above.


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## mariomike

See also:

Recruting of Permanent residents
http://army.ca/forums/threads/13555.0
Four pages.

Canadian Citizenship Required to Join Canadian Forces?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/20943.0;nowap

How can a landed immigrant (PR card holder) join the forces or related......  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/108227.0

Permanent resident - application process and PRESEC clearance
https://army.ca/forums/threads/111448.0/nowap.html

PR card and join to forces help  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/103884.0

CF May Recruit Landed Immigrants  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/49202.0/nowap.html

Fast track for Immigration by joining the CF  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/29782.0/nowap.html



			
				vara787 said:
			
		

> Would I be too old?



Am I too old to join/do well/fit in? (Merged thread) 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/87496.0


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## vara787

thank you all, you answered all my questions!

I understand about the not being Canadian part, but the fast-track for Canadian citizenship through the armed forces caught my attention that there might indeed be a way but best is, PR then live 3 years, apply that can take worst case another year, and then join you all! 

Cheers,
Vara


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## mariomike

vara787 said:
			
		

> I understand about the not being Canadian part, but the fast-track for Canadian citizenship through the armed forces caught my attention that there might indeed be a way.



Those are just a few of the frequent unofficial discussions of this topic. One day, they may be merged into a mega-thread.

As always, Recruiting is your best source of official information:
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#who


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## vara787

thank you. Yes the reason I asked here because I sent out two emails already to recruiters, no answer yet and I just couldn't wait any longer to find out to be completely honest. Thread can be closed or deleted, apologies for any inconvenience, you guys helped a great deal!


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## mariomike

vara787 said:
			
		

> thank you. Yes the reason I asked here because I sent out two emails already to recruiters, no answer yet and I just couldn't wait any longer to find out to be completely honest. Thread can be closed or deleted, apologies for any inconvenience, you guys helped a great deal!



For official replies to Recruiting questions, you can ask here:
http://milnet.ca/forums/index.php/board,135.0.html


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## Loachman

Before asking too many more questions, read through older threads on this Site and try out the snazzy Search Function. You'll most likely find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet, and will get a better idea of what your options are and what to expect.

You are not too old to apply as Pilot should you change your mind.


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## DAA

vara787 said:
			
		

> thank you all, you answered all my questions!
> 
> I understand about the not being Canadian part, but the fast-track for Canadian citizenship through the armed forces caught my attention that there might indeed be a way but best is, PR then live 3 years, apply that can take worst case another year, and then join you all!
> 
> Cheers,
> Vara



The fast tracking doesn't apply except in "special" circumstances.  So if you do not have prior "extensive" military service, then you are going to have to wait until you become a Canadian Citizen.  Not to mention, you will also require an undergrad degree.


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## Sorrow

Hello, everyone. I'am asked to provide Certificate of Naturalization upon to the arrival for BMQ because I was born outside of Canada.
Does anyone know what kind of document it is and how to get it? I'am living in Montreal QC.
Thanks a lot


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## Pusser

That would be your citizenship certificate (i.e. government issued proof of citizenship).


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## Sorrow

Thank you for the input. 
But I already have the citizenship of Canada. Do I still need Certificate of Naturalization?


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## Pusser

If you are not born a Canadian citizen, you need to become "naturalized" to become one.  The certificate they give you when you become a Canadian would be your naturalization certificate.  It's also known as a "Certificate of Canadian Citizenship."  It should be the same documentation you gave to the recruiting centre when you started the process.

Of course, you could also ask the recruiting centre instead of relying on anonymous internet people.


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## Blackadder1916

Were you specifically told to have a "Certificate of Naturalization" with you on arrival at St. Jean or are you reading joining instructions that say something similar to
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-establishments/recruit-school-joining-instructions.page


> Required Documents and Items
> The following documents are required on arrival:
> 
> a.  Birth Certificate and Certificate of Canadian Citizenship *or* Certificate of Naturalization if you were born outside Canada;



Carefully read instructions for "and" & "or"; they can change the meaning significantly.  Attention to detail is an important military principle.  Also, don't rule out that their presence or absence could be a typographical error.

The three documents mentioned in the quoted joining instructions are the ones that commonly prove the date of acquiring Canadian citizenship.  There once was a document issued by the Government of Canada called a "Certificate of Naturalization", however it is unlikely that you would have one since an individual who had been naturalized as an infant (let's say one year old) when they were still issuing them would now be over 68 years old.  It is still valid evidence of citizenship for those senior citizens but is unlikely to be held by anyone joining today.  It is probably still included in the English version of the joining instructions because no one has bothered to edit it out, unlike the French version where it is not mentioned.



> Documents à apporter à l'arrivée
> Les documents suivants sont requis à votre arrivée :
> 
> a.Certificat de naissance et certificat de citoyenneté canadienne si vous êtes né à l'extérieur du Canada;


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## Sorrow

Thanks a lot everybody. 
I got my answer from recruiting center. 
 :christmas happy:


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## raoufhakam

Certificate of Citizenship, Citizenship Card, or Canadian Passport all would suffice. you must have one of those if you were born outside of Canada, or else you're not a Canadian citizen.

i was asked for those by my unit after enrollment ceremony, not at BMQ


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## CA

Can perm residents in Canada with US citizenship enlist (not joint citizenship)?
Is it all branches or just some? Is it just reserves or can they go active too?

Any first hand experiences and/or links/info?


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## mariomike

CA said:
			
		

> Can perm residents in Canada with US citizenship enlist (not joint citizenship)?



To apply to the Forces, you must:
1.Be a Canadian Citizen.
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#who


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## CA

mariomike said:
			
		

> To apply to the Forces, you must:
> 1.Be a Canadian Citizen.
> http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#who



yeah ive seen that.......issue is that isn't true if this is also true.......

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/permanent-canadian-residents-who-are-member-of-the-military-to-be-fast-tracked-for-citizenship

you cant not allow PR and yet have PR already in......math doesn't add.


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## RocketRichard

In extenuating circumstances some members  have been enrolled with PR status. However, in 2014 I do believe there  were approximately 60 members with pr status in the entire CF. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gwp

RocketRichard said:
			
		

> In extenuating circumstances some members  have been enrolled with PR status. However, in 2014 I do believe there  were approximately 60 members with pr status in the entire CF.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




DAOD 5002-1  Enrollment  Part 3
Citizenship

3.3 An applicant is required to be: 

    a Canadian citizen; or
    a citizen of another country who has permanent resident status under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and:
        undertakes to become a Canadian citizen immediately when eligible to do so;
        provides service that satisfies a special need; and
        whose enrolment, in the opinion of the Commander (Comd) Canadian Forces Recruiting Group (CFRG), would not prejudice the national interest.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5002-1.page#qe

One issue is that a person must maintain permanent resident status.  PR Status may be lost if a refugee returns to visit their home country (demonstrating they no longer require protection) or apply for a passport from their home country.  Permanent Residents must be physically present for two years within five years on the day the determination is made.  The residency requirement for citizenship is a fixed period in Bill C-24 currently six years previous to day of application in Bill C-6 the act about to come into force its 3 years in the five year period previous to the day of application.  I have sworn serving members of the CF as Canadian citizens.


----------



## RocketRichard

gwp said:
			
		

> DAOD 5002-1  Enrollment  Part 3
> Citizenship
> 
> 3.3 An applicant is required to be:
> 
> a Canadian citizen; or
> a citizen of another country who has permanent resident status under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and:
> undertakes to become a Canadian citizen immediately when eligible to do so;
> provides service that satisfies a special need; and
> whose enrolment, in the opinion of the Commander (Comd) Canadian Forces Recruiting Group (CFRG), would not prejudice the national interest.
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5002-1.page#qe


Yes, that's the DAOD reference. Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## da1root

Good Morning,

Joining the CAF as a PR requires a Citizenship Waiver.  About the only times citizenship waivers are completed is for occupations where the CAF is having difficulty enrolling Canadian Citizens into the occupation; the other caveat is that the person must be fully qualified in Canada to do the job.  (i.e. a Foreign Medical Officer would not be given a Citizenship Waiver as they're not qualified in Canada to practice but a Foreign Pilot who is fully qualified to fly would be eligible for a Citizenship Waiver).

I can tell you from experience that about the only occupation currently being entertained for foreign (i.e. non-citizens) applicants is Pilot.


----------



## gwp

Here is a Naval Commander being presented his Canadian Citizenship on January 31 2014.


----------



## Underway

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Good Morning,
> 
> Joining the CAF as a PR requires a Citizenship Waiver.  About the only times citizenship waivers are completed is for occupations where the CAF is having difficulty enrolling Canadian Citizens into the occupation; the other caveat is that the person must be fully qualified in Canada to do the job.  (i.e. a Foreign Medical Officer would not be given a Citizenship Waiver as they're not qualified in Canada to practice but a Foreign Pilot who is fully qualified to fly would be eligible for a Citizenship Waiver).
> 
> I can tell you from experience that about the only occupation currently being entertained for foreign (i.e. non-citizens) applicants is Pilot.



I've seen it done for SOF as well, but that's a little more case by case basis.


----------



## secammo

Hello all, I'm 34 years old woman who is new landed PR and want to join CF, I have foreign nurse education, I heard about citizenship waiver for PR, but I made some calls with a few recruiting officers that they said only citizenship can apply, so any advice? Thanks!


----------



## PuckChaser

My advice would be to listen to the recruiting officers who said only citizens can apply... If that info is directly from a Recruiting Centre, it is the most accurate information you'll get.


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, secammo

Very few exceptions are ever made to the citizenship requirements, and only for narrowly specific reasons. You'll have to obtain that first, as I did several decades ago. They pushed it through for me in half of the normal time back then, as I'd told them that I was applying to the Regular Force (I was a Reservist, at the time; British citizenship was acceptable for that back then).

While you are waiting for that, start exploring this Site. There is much valuable information available in existing threads. Learn from that.


----------



## ModlrMike

In addition to the very good advice already posted, if you want to join as a nurse you will need to have a valid licence to practice from a Canadian nursing authority.


----------



## da1root

Good Day,

In addition to the above I can tell you that citizenship waivers are not currently being entertained for Nursing Officer at the moment; and likely will not be an occupation that is considered for a waiver.


----------



## syg05295

I am a PR in canada , Backgrounded South Korea.
i have been living in canada for more then 10 years.
i wanted to join the regular force but ive noticed that only citizen`s can join it.
is it true? is there no chance for pr to join the regular force?
and i also want to know if i can join the reserve force .
currently 22 years old , finished highschool till grade 12 , dont have the diploma , but attended first year college and mature student


----------



## ModlrMike

Taken directly from the Recruiting home page:


Am I eligible?

Let’s start with the basics. To start a full or part-time career in the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) you must:

  -  be a Canadian citizen
  -  be at least 18 years old (17 years old with parental consent), except:
      -  For the Paid Education programs—you may be 16 years old (with parental consent)
      -  For the Primary Reserves—you may be 16 years old (with parental consent) and must be enrolled as a full-time student
   - have completed at least Grade 10 or Secondaire IV in Québec (some jobs need higher levels of education)


----------

