# Some Canadian Forces entry points unguarded due to budget cuts



## Eye In The Sky (6 Jun 2013)

CBC News Article

Sources tell CBC News more than 60 commissionaires let go as DND budget trimmed 

Many entry points to Canadian Forces bases are now without guards during the day as part of security changes related to budget cuts hitting the Department of National Defence.

Sources told CBC News more than 60 commissionaires, who controlled access to dockyard gates, have been let go, and some of the sites will be looked after by an expanded duty watch of military personnel.

Documents obtained by CBC News through the Access to Information Act revealed eight officers and a civilian made 38 recommendations earlier this year about how to continue guarding the gates to various DND sites.
CFB Shearwater's main gate is now unguarded and the gate remains open during the day.CFB Shearwater's main gate is now unguarded and the gate remains open during the day. (CBC)
Those recommendations were redacted in the document.

The people who attended the January meeting on reducing the operations and maintenance budget at CFB Halifax were warned to be discreet.

"[The chair] reminded all present that because of the nature of this meeting, the contents of this meeting were not be discussed outside or with anyone other than attendees of this meeting," the documents state.

In Halifax, Stadacona's main gate is unguarded, as is CFB Shearwater.

There is a sign at CFB Shearwater's main gate requiring every person to have an ID or pass and warning they may be subject to a search, but the booth is now unmanned.

Other sites, such as Rainbow Gate and Admiral's Gate at CFB Halifax and HMCS Trinity — an intelligence facility at the naval dockyard in Halifax — have been allowed to keep their commissionaires.

The documents obtained by CBC News do not reveal how much the DND is saving with the security cuts — the commissionaires cost more than $5 million annually to staff 44 individual sites.

"These commissionaires provide services ranging from static security posts, escort duties to evidence custodian and dispatcher services. The turnover rate for our commissionaires at DND is very low," the documents state.

"With respect to manning levels at DND commissionaire sites, a critical look has been taken to determine whether there are further savings which could be accrued through the redeployment of tasks or personnel or through the elimination of services."

The Canadian Corps of Commissionaires declined to comment on the story, saying the DND is still a client.


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## Monsoon (6 Jun 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> CBC Sources told CBC News more than 60 commissionaires, who controlled access to dockyard gates, have been let go, and some of the sites will be looked after by an expanded duty watch of military personnel.



So... replacing 60-year-old men with a military duty watch = "unguarded". Thanks for coming out, CBC.

I, for one, don't know how I'll be able to sleep at night in the open base of Stadacona without knowing that there's commissionaire at the gate to wave through cars listlessly without leaving his booth.


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## MJP (6 Jun 2013)

I heard the story on the radio this morning and they were talking about how these cuts made a bunch of bases across Canada unguarded.  Made it sound like every base has/had commissionares, nevermind that there are a large number of open bases across the country.  Much ado about nothing IMHO...


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2013)

I'm very much against firing commissionaires and putting a soldier on duty.  Smaller units filling a 24 hour duty rotations can seriously screw with their schedules and family life.


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## Jammer (6 Jun 2013)

Seriously...screwing with family life?

Welcome to the miilitary...Have you ever been to a US Base?

MPs can be used to sit in guardhouse along with the endless line of defoulters. Forget the charges....put 'em on duty!


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## bLUE fOX (6 Jun 2013)

I worked for the commissionaires NS for just over a year, most of that time at the dock yard and Stadaconna. At Stadaconna especially, people rarely stopped to present ID, and on at least three separate occasions I had been almost hit by a car when I tried to ask for ID. Despite the base commanders orders, there were a number of drivers who refused to roll their windows down to hand me their ID's to check, and I had been cursed out by PO2 once because I told him his ID was expired and he wouldn't be allowed on base. 

That's not to say there isn't a certain culture of apathy. I had once gotten a stern talking to about challenging Adm Gardam for his ID, and was told never to do that again. As well, on more then a few occasions I had been told by other commissionaires not to with checking ID's because I hadn't been around long enough to know who to wave through and who to check, so I was to sit off to the side and watch.

While I was disappointed to find out I would be losing my job, I wasn't surprised when the initial warning came out either. There are a number of positions that I don't think they need commissionaires for (and a few were there aren't, that as a minimum I think there should be). It's a nice job for what it was explained to me as it's purpose (augmenting a military pension), but given the restrictions placed on the commissionaires and the age and abilities of a number of them, I don't know that having them provide security at some sites is appropriate (both for the individual commissionaire and the needs of the military).


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## bLUE fOX (6 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum: sorry, You posted while I was typing. I have been talking to some of the reg force types who volunteer with the cadets, and that was brought up as an issue that, as stupid as sounds, might have some serious impact on retention. It's my understanding that at the moment it's only likely to effect someone once every three months or so, but I might have miss-read that memo.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2013)

Jammer said:
			
		

> Seriously...screwing with family life?
> 
> Welcome to the miilitary...Have you ever been to a US Base?



Yup, seriously.  Something like this wouldn't impact a battalion very much, but when platoon size subunits have to start doing extra duty within their org it can cause a significant disruption to their routine and home life. 


Welcome to the military is, IMO, a poor response to something that can seriously effect a soldiers personal life.
And yes I have been to a US base, in fact I just posted a stat how in 2012 they had a soldier commit suicide every 25 hours.


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## dimsum (6 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Yup, seriously.  Something like this wouldn't impact a battalion very much, but when platoon size subunits have to start doing extra duty within their org it can cause a significant disruption to their routine and home life.
> 
> 
> Welcome to the military is, IMO, a poor response to something that can seriously effect a soldiers personal life.
> And yes I have been to a US base, in fact I just posted a stat how in 2012 they had a soldier commit suicide every 25 hours.



Whoa...we're talking about implementing "Base Duty Watch" much like how HMC ships (and Naden/Stad/Dockyards) do it, correct?  If everyone on base is in the rotation, how often would you actually be on duty for the night?


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## Monsoon (6 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> And yes I have been to a US base, in fact I just posted a stat how in 2012 they had a soldier commit suicide every 25 hours.


As a result of their policy of having soldiers stand duty watches? That's... an interesting conclusion you've drawn there.


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## PuckChaser (6 Jun 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Whoa...we're talking about implementing "Base Duty Watch" much like how HMC ships (and Naden/Stad/Dockyards) do it, correct?  If everyone on base is in the rotation, how often would you actually be on duty for the night?



Once every 2-3 months at my unit right now, and thats just the gate to the compound (that we don't need open all day IMO). Smaller bases its more of an issue, but of course everyone would have an excuse why they can't do it when their name comes up.


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## Towards_the_gap (6 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm very much against firing commissionaires and putting a soldier on duty.  Smaller units filling a 24 hour duty rotations can seriously screw with their schedules and family life.



At my next-but-last unit, an RE regiment in the UK which was the sole occupant of the barracks, the 4 squadrons shared the guard shift. 1 sqn's shift (12 dudes[Gd Comd, 2IC, Driver, 9 sentries]) rotated between a week of days (0900-1800), nights (1800-0900) and a week off. It was a nice break for some from the training/deployment schedule, and as it was relatively sedentary duty, did allow for injured pers to return to full duties whilst fulfilling a more meaningful task than being the SSM's clerk or working in the mail room. Whilst on duty, the sentries rotated between QRF, roving sentry, gate guard and rest. Soldiers would also be tasked to the guardroom for 6 month stints.

Now, genuine question here, would you think this pattern to be wholly un-sustainable for a base like petawawa?


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## 211RadOp (6 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm very much against firing commissionaires and putting a soldier on duty.  Smaller units filling a 24 hour duty rotations can seriously screw with their schedules and family life.



If the duties are shared proportionally with all units at the base, then this would not be an issue.  If,  for example, a unit has 10% of the personnel eligible for duty on the base, then they should fill 10% of the duty roster monthly.  I do not see an issue with this at all.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Whoa...we're talking about implementing "Base Duty Watch" much like how HMC ships (and Naden/Stad/Dockyards) do it, correct?  If everyone on base is in the rotation, how often would you actually be on duty for the night?



For large bases where duty is shared across units it's not that big of a deal, Petawawa for example has a base duty NCO, duty driver and duty officer on top of the commissionaire. Soldiers can go months or even years without having a duty.  
The commissionaire basically trains a new crew every day. They're the ones who know everything and what needs to be done if something happens, less so for someone who does the job once every half a year or more. 

For a smaller unit that has a commissionaire, say Petawawa's ammo compound that has only a platoon working out of it, loosing a commissionaire makes a bigger impact.



			
				hamiltongs said:
			
		

> As a result of their policy of having soldiers stand duty watches? That's... an interesting conclusion you've drawn there.


I'm not sure the causes but I'm going to guess a significant number of the causes are from various problems at home, some of which I'm sure could be caused from the military side of the house.  

I'm not saying doing extra duty is going to make someone commit suicide but I think units that may be already stretched thin for man power picking up even more work could lead to problems at home.   One soldier I've spoke with had 27 hours of last minute overtime in 2 weeks.



			
				Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> At my next-but-last unit, an RE regiment in the UK which was the sole occupant of the barracks, the 4 squadrons shared the guard shift. 1 sqn's shift (12 dudes[Gd Comd, 2IC, Driver, 9 sentries]) rotated between a week of days (0900-1800), nights (1800-0900) and a week off. It was a nice break for some from the training/deployment schedule, and as it was relatively sedentary duty, did allow for injured pers to return to full duties whilst fulfilling a more meaningful task than being the SSM's clerk or working in the mail room. Whilst on duty, the sentries rotated between QRF, roving sentry, gate guard and rest. Soldiers would also be tasked to the guardroom for 6 month stints.
> 
> Now, genuine question here, would you think this pattern to be wholly un-sustainable for a base like petawawa?


Great point
I think it's doable in a place like Petawawa.   Petawawa has some 200+(?)  soldiers in various stages of health on JPSU I've heard, many whom I'm told sit around and do nothing (they can't find enough work for them) or they might check in once a day.  I bet a lot of them would appreciate being treated like a soldier and given a force protection/security type task instead of, as you say,working in a mail room.


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## Tank Troll (7 Jun 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Whoa...we're talking about implementing "Base Duty Watch" much like how HMC ships (and Naden/Stad/Dockyards) do it, correct?  If everyone on base is in the rotation, how often would you actually be on duty for the night?



So I spend a month or so gone on exercise or on course come home and first weekend back I get a nice base duty, doesn't matter if it is only once every 2-3 months or only twice a year that coupled with regimental duty just adds another level of f**kery on top of what is already there. Now you can argue well it is poor planning on who ever does the duty schedule to put you on duty right after you get back but it happens more times than not.


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## upandatom (7 Jun 2013)

I am all for using defaulters, duties. to fill this. Your late and miss a timing, you f*$%ed up, well guess what, your saturday/sunday is now gone. It would save alot of time and effort and I am positive someone drank to much on a thursday and missed Friday morning role call would prefer an extra duty as opposed to a summary trial. It was right, yeah 12 hour duty shift, depending on the size of the base, could be once in 6 months you have to do it, and even then, most RSMs and COs nowadays, if you arent on that duty for pulling a sh!tpump move, then youll get a short later on. 

Funny thing, my last RSM said straight up he was a sh!t disturber, got in trouble, but never had a conduct sheet because in the older days, they used to handle these things with a weekend of duties or extras. Nowadays its summary trial here, summary trial there, for trivial matters that can be handled with a simple weekend of duties for first time offenders. If it repeats itself, then yes I am all for the hatless dance. 

Alot of bases have an open gate policy and it causes alot of grief. (even on the PMQ sides of bases) The last base I was on people were having their BBQs and bikes stolen Trailer Park Boys style for the scrap metal from their back yards. Had that of happened if some old shady dude drove in with a POS pickup truck and a commisionare or member on duty was saying to himself "this doesnt look right" and made a quick call to the MPs.


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## ModlrMike (7 Jun 2013)

All well and good however at a number of bases, Edm/Wpg/Esq for example the PMQ patch is outside the base. Are you proposing that the duty watch drive the PMQ patch?


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## Jammer (7 Jun 2013)

That seems more like a culture of apathy. Most military folks that live in the 'Qs know pretty much who is supposed to be there and who's not.

I've seen many cabbies in Kingston who sit in empty parking lots on Base waiting for a fare been asked to leave by military members. 

As for being sacked on duty shortly after an Ex...shitty mate. Poor planning by rear party.

Garrison MPs are also pretty visible as well....and cameras are plentiful around public areas. If you don't notice them they're doing the job, right?


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

Anyone curious how the Hfx Duty Watch is run need only take look thru the ROs on the DIN.


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## MeanJean (7 Jun 2013)

Duty watches are part of life in the CF.  Some units have it better than others.  When you are posted to a ship, time between duties are measured in days.  I have been on rotations that were one in ten.  It is also not uncommon to come home from a month or two of sailing and be on duty the day of return.  It sucks but it is part of the navy life.

As for weekend duty watches on ships, it is typical to get the Monday or Friday off if you are duty on Saturday or Sunday respectively.


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## JorgSlice (7 Jun 2013)

CBC should come drive through CFB Calgary (well, the sad landscape of its remnants). The road way that would usually be the MP Guardhouse is empty, it now has a contract security company sign plastered to it, free access to anyone who so desires to travel and loiter there. The only Commissionaire at Currie Barracks is a Mon-Fri 8-4 guy who does the NDIs in the 1 MP Regt Det CGY office in the "Taj Mahal" (General Waters Bldg).

Then at Mewata... You're lucky to see a Commissionaire too... However it is a much more secure facility (albeit a different sense of secure).

And this was WAY before this became "news"

(Sorry if I've gone over the OPSEC/PERSEC, feel free to flog me and trim  )


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## medicineman (7 Jun 2013)

I can say I would have much rather been doing Force Protection Guard Commander as Base Duty WO/POOD in Esquimalt than the glorified adult babysitting service I was basically used for in Nellie's Block...just my opinion of course.

MM


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## upandatom (7 Jun 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> All well and good however at a number of bases, Edm/Wpg/Esq for example the PMQ patch is outside the base. Are you proposing that the duty watch drive the PMQ patch?



Why not? Its rounds? BASF/WASF will do the same thing, adding security and points, perimeter checks, Task a CFR to it. 9/10 times the duties will fall on a weekend/weeknight, day is not needed as much because Military members are at work, CE running around the base, families are up and stirring, saying that, have a look in compounds and see the vehicles sitting there. Understandable the associated costs with maintenance and fuel etc. 

Not trying to bash MPs here, but 1 squad car running around every couple of hours doesnt do alot preventative wise.  Especially on a base like Kingston they have alot to deal with like DUI check points to CFSCE, Niagara Park or to the shacks. 

Although I have never been to those other bases, one I am at now is seperated, I doubt the PMQs are more then a 15 min drive during night time and weekends to avoid traffic. I dont see those PMQs being more then a 30 min drive from the respective bases. IF they are then I am sure there are other possibilities. 



			
				Jammer said:
			
		

> That seems more like a culture of apathy. Most military folks that live in the 'Qs know pretty much who is supposed to be there and who's not.
> 
> I've seen many cabbies in Kingston who sit in empty parking lots on Base waiting for a fare been asked to leave by military members.
> 
> ...



I have seen them being asked to leave as well, and being in/from Kingston, you know that a fair amount of PMQs have been removed and left alot of the area open and not used roads with easy access to members backyards. At night time, pretty easy to go yard shopping.


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Jun 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> CBC should come drive through CFB Calgary (well, the sad landscape of its remnants). The road way that would usually be the MP Guardhouse is empty, it now has a contract security company sign plastered to it, free access to anyone who so desires to travel and loiter there. The only Commissionaire at Currie Barracks is a Mon-Fri 8-4 guy who does the NDIs in the 1 MP Regt Det CGY office in the "Taj Mahal" (General Waters Bldg).
> 
> Then at Mewata... You're lucky to see a Commissionaire too... However it is a much more secure facility (albeit a different sense of secure).
> 
> ...



Sad to say but CFB Calgary is non existant.  The land is no longer ours so asking CBC to come drive through a civilian area would do nothing.  

As for security in the two buildings that are left, the unit members themselves will ask questions should anyone look "off".  Having the MFRC and other government agencies in our buildings makes for interesting people waling around. The commissionaire?  He could probably be replaced by one of the MPs.

CFB Gagetown has had token commissionaires for over a decade, this is a non issue.


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## Jacky Tar (7 Jun 2013)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> So I spend a month or so gone on exercise or on course come home and first weekend back I get a nice base duty, doesn't matter if it is only once every 2-3 months or only twice a year that coupled with regimental duty just adds another level of f**kery on top of what is already there. Now you can argue well it is poor planning on who ever does the duty schedule to put you on duty right after you get back but it happens more times than not.



There's a metric shitload of sailors who come home from 3, 4, 5 month deployments and go back to a 1-in-10 rotation alongside. Some poor sod has to be duty first day in. I'd give my left nut to be in 1 every 2 or 3 months.


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## MeanJean (7 Jun 2013)

Jacky Tar said:
			
		

> There's a metric shitload of sailors who come home from 3, 4, 5 month deployments and go back to a 1-in-10 rotation alongside. Some poor sod has to be duty first day in. I'd give my left nut to be in 1 every 2 or 3 months.



Left nut for a duty watch every two to three months? Count me in!  The only break we get is when we return from a major deployment, either a six month NATO or time in Arabian sea.  Even then we take our leave and return to the duty watch rotation after a month.


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## Jacky Tar (7 Jun 2013)

MeanJean said:
			
		

> Left nut for a duty watch every two to three months? Count me in!  The only break we get is when we return from a major deployment, either a six month NATO or time in Arabian sea.  Even then we take our leave and return to the duty watch rotation after a month.



That's what I'm saying. Someone farther up the post chain felt it was unfair to return from the field and be slotted back into a 1 in 2 or 3 month watch rotation. Duty tech onboard most ships runs about 1 in 10 days - some ships are up as much as 1 in 2 weeks, and that's considered better than average. And someone has to stand those watches when the ship gets back.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

I heard rumours/2nd hand info on some ppl being on a 1-in-4 before when the ship was shorthanded and alongside.  That would suck the big one.


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## Nostix (7 Jun 2013)

Regarding duty watch on a ship, at least it's easier to reconcile the fact that you're one of a select few people with the skills and training required to respond to a threat or emergency on board a warship after hours. It's not fun, but it's readily clear why it's necessary that _you_ be there.

There's no equivalent good feeling when you feel like someone is just saving $15 an hour by giving you extra duties on a gate.

Is it unreasonable? Probably not. Is it going to be putting smiles on any faces? Not a chance.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

The avg person doing the Weekend gateguard watch is no more "able" than the folks they replaced from the Commissionaires.  Seriously.


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## Tank Troll (9 Jun 2013)

Jacky Tar said:
			
		

> There's a metric shitload of sailors who come home from 3, 4, 5 month deployments and go back to a 1-in-10 rotation alongside. Some poor sod has to be duty first day in. I'd give my left nut to be in 1 every 2 or 3 months.




Its not my fault that you navy types guard your boats on a secure base, as far as I'm concerned that is life in your chosen trade/job. How ever how would you like to have to do guard at the main gate also? That is what we are talking about. There is no need to give any body parts to be able to only have to do duty every 1-2-3 or 6 months all you have to do is OT


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## Stoker (9 Jun 2013)

Personally I'm glad that the decision was made to replace the commissionaires with an augmented duty watch as I believe it should be the responsibility of the military to guard their own installations.  At some gates it was a bloody joke on who was laid on as security. If the commissionaires were more concerned with the quality of the guarding services they provided vice putting anyone in with a heart beat rather than refuse a contract perhaps more contracts would have been renewed.
Now if they would get rid of the commissionaires in charge of the ID section and parking pass office at dockyard, all would be good.


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## ARMY_101 (9 Jun 2013)

Commissionaires' mandate is to employ former CF and RCMP members in (arguably) meaningful tasks. In other words, it's the retirement plan for former members who want to keep "active" and do something while collecting their pension and making a bit of cash for vacations.

I also worked there for a year, and while the job was good for allowing time to do_ other_ things (school work, crosswords, puzzles...), it was also incredibly redundant. On many occasions (since I had multiple posts at multiple buildings) it seemed the purpose of the job was to fulfill the department's obligations to keep the lights on at night and ensure that one employee working until 9:00pm was safe when she walked to her car.

Very rarely was there any "security" value to having Commissionaires on duty; after all, as already mentioned, if security was a concern your response wouldn't be to hire 60 year-old men and women. In a select few cases we were clearly under the Military Police in terms of observing and reporting directly to them, but with other departments we were there as a check-in-the-box for the building's security manager.

But why would security detail be given to sailors and soldiers when we have MPs whose precise job is security and law enforcement?


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## Scoobie Newbie (9 Jun 2013)

Commish are to provide eyes and ears for the MPs not make arrests. MPs mandate is to provide secure beach heads by assault boat actually


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Jun 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> MPs mandate is to provide secure beach heads by assault boat actually



Right...... :


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## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2013)

upandatom said:
			
		

> I am all for using defaulters, duties. to fill this.



I guess this depends on whether we see the guys at the front gate as base duty guys (putting stupid flags up and down, unlocking doors for people who lock themselves out of shacks) or an actual security force.

Soldiers on defaulters or those who do the job once a year don't make for effective security.



			
				Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Personally I'm glad that the decision was made to replace the commissionaires with an augmented duty watch as I believe it should be the responsibility of the military to guard their own installations.  At some gates it was a bloody joke on who was laid on as security. If the commissionaires were more concerned with the quality of the guarding services they provided vice putting anyone in with a heart beat rather than refuse a contract perhaps more contracts would have been renewed.
> Now if they would get rid of the commissionaires in charge of the ID section and parking pass office at dockyard, all would be good.



I haven't been to many CF bases but I've found commissionares take their job more seriously than soldiers stuck on duty.


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## Stoker (9 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I guess this depends on whether we see the guys at the front gate as base duty guys (putting stupid flags up and down, unlocking doors for people who lock themselves out of shacks) or an actual security force.
> 
> Soldiers on defaulters or those who do the job once a year don't make for effective security.
> 
> I haven't been to many CF bases but I've found commissionares take their job more seriously than soldiers stuck on duty.



If you mean by stupid flags up and down colors and sunset yes that's one of tasks as part of the duty watch. As for soldiers stuck on duty not taking their job seriously, well I guess that's the job of their OOD/SWK or whatever to ensure they are professional and taking it seriously.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> If you mean by stupid flags up and down colors and sunset yes that's one of tasks as part of the duty watch. As for soldiers stuck on duty not taking their job seriously, well I guess that's the job of their OOD/SWK or whatever to ensure they are professional and taking it seriously.



I'm going to guess that you and none of your ppl are tasked to the Security/Duty watch.   8)

The change of ways from Commissionaires to a duty Security watch was nothing but a cost-cutting measure, full stop.


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## Towards_the_gap (9 Jun 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Commish are to provide eyes and ears for the MPs not make arrests. MPs mandate is to provide secure beach heads by assault boat actually



Are you serious?


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## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> If you mean by stupid flags up and down colors and sunset yes that's one of tasks as part of the duty watch. As for soldiers stuck on duty not taking their job seriously, well I guess that's the job of their OOD/SWK or whatever to ensure they are professional and taking it seriously.



The last time I did duty watch my most important task (it was in a memo) was to ensure the base commanders car was plugged in overnight,had to drive it a couple compounds over at night and plug it in then go and get it at 5 am and bring it back. (It's a hybrid and they freeze when it's cold.)  


Long story short, we should take base security more serious than we do. Something bad is going to happen before it gets taken seriously again.


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## MikeL (9 Jun 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> MPs mandate is to provide secure beach heads by assault boat actually



That explains this photo then








> Photo of the week: "We'll meet you at the beach!"
> Members from 4th Military Police Company (4 MP Coy) prepare to be dropped into St-Joseph Lake, Québec, by divers of HMCS Montcalm, during Exercise PRÉVOST INTRÉPIDE on May 12. The main objective of this exercise was to confirm the operational capacity of 4 MP Coy.
> 
> Photo by Cpl Nicolas Tremblay
> ...


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Jun 2013)

Actually it is not even in their doctrine.....


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## Stoker (9 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> The last time I did duty watch my most important task (it was in a memo) was to ensure the base commanders car was plugged in overnight,had to drive it a couple compounds over at night and plug it in then go and get it at 5 am and bring it back. (It's a hybrid and they freeze when it's cold.)
> 
> 
> Long story short, we should take base security more serious than we do. Something bad is going to happen before it gets taken seriously again.



That I do agree. We need a more robust security force at our bases.


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## Stoker (9 Jun 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'm going to guess that you and none of your ppl are tasked to the Security/Duty watch.   8)
> 
> The change of ways from Commissionaires to a duty Security watch was nothing but a cost-cutting measure, full stop.




I agree it was a cost cutting measure solely, but its too bad that poor job that some of the commissaries were doing wasn't the reason. Either way they're out of there. If the duty watch personnel are not doing their job, then its a hell of a lot easier to fix then dealing with the commissionaires.


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## ballz (9 Jun 2013)

There are a lot of civilian positions that could be cut and replaced with troops that are "doing nothing."

Commissionaires as Barrack Wardens, Commissionaires on security, maintenance of the grounds, custodial work, etc...

Of course, it'll be real sad when Ex XYZ gets cancelled because all the manpower that is supposed to be training is busy mowing the lawns and cleaning the toilets on base...

I was not around for the 90s, but this is what I was told could become the issue now that DND is looking at what civilians it can afford to lose. As it was worded to me, "soldiers were too busy doing the civilians jobs to be soldiers."

Just some food for thought... this is what comes to my mind when I see "x" position being cut and then the comments "we've got plenty of soldiers sitting around doing nothing that can do these jobs."


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## ARMY_101 (9 Jun 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> MPs mandate is to provide secure beach heads by assault boat actually



 ???

I can't seem to find that in the recruiting website's description...



> http://www.forces.ca/en/job/militarypolice-75#info-1
> 
> The primary responsibilities of the Military Police are to:
> 
> ...


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## upandatom (9 Jun 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I guess this depends on whether we see the guys at the front gate as base duty guys (putting stupid flags up and down, unlocking doors for people who lock themselves out of shacks) or an actual security force.
> 
> Soldiers on defaulters or those who do the job once a year don't make for effective security.
> 
> I haven't been to many CF bases but I've found commissionares take their job more seriously than soldiers stuck on duty.




Stupid flags? Wow, that's all I have to say about that.

If you see the soldiers not taking their job and security seriously, if your in, it's your responsibility to fix that. 

How do you think security and posts were manned before the commisionaires? Yes I fell bad many former serving will lose their jobs, however if it means that as the Canadian Armed Forces, we don't go back to an FRP era and remain a sustainable, dependable, reliable and deployable military, then the cuts have to be made.

Too often we cut corners in kit, training(as is being done with ACISS now). We need those funds to keep our current posture, regroup and retrain.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2013)

Great.  Why don't you get a posting to Hfx then and volunteer to man the gate at Stad all weekend.  Actually get a posting to Hfx/N6 and you will be doing the guard.  :warstory:


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## OldSolduer (9 Jun 2013)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Stupid flags? Wow, that's all I have to say about that.
> 
> If you see the soldiers not taking their job and security seriously, if your in, it's your responsibility to fix that.
> 
> ...




And you are the voice of experience? 





			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Great.  Why don't you get a posting to Hfx then and volunteer to man the gate at Stad all weekend.   :warstory:



Agreed, spend a weekend or so doing gate duty. Stop giving advice. 

Oh I see, you're 19.


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## Scoobie Newbie (9 Jun 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> I can't seem to find that in the recruiting website's description...



It's a bit of a joke. It's not their mandate yet they are doing it anyway.


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## Tank Troll (9 Jun 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> There are a lot of civilian positions that could be cut and replaced with troops that are "doing nothing."
> 
> Commissionaires as Barrack Wardens, Commissionaires on security, maintenance of the grounds, custodial work, etc...
> 
> ...



How about cleaners in the shack we use have to clear our own barracks when I first got in and our own lines at K19. 

Another way to cut cost is to get rid of spec pay  :worms:


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## Old Sweat (9 Jun 2013)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> How about cleaners in the shack we use have to clear our own barracks when I first got in and our own lines at K19.
> 
> Another way to cut cost is to get rid of spec pay  :worms:



The elimination of a lot of the fatigues came as part of integration. Before then, in the army on a rotational basis we provided troops to work in the kitchens washing dishes and pots, setting and clearing tables, etc and we also cleaned our own barracks, although I think lawns were mowed by CE. I had the uinique experience of finishing a tour in the kitchen and being detailed as hut orderly when suddenly I was called to the adjutant to be informed I had been promoted to the rank of officer cadet and was leaving for officer training in two days. (I think the "hut slut" gig was because the CoC figured the news was coming and they wanted be to be findable in a hurry.)


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## upandatom (10 Jun 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And you are the voice of experience?
> Agreed, spend a weekend or so doing gate duty. Stop giving advice.
> 
> Oh I see, you're 19.



No Im not the sole voice of experience here, but I have been around and in the Military long enough, On the outside during the FRP era with both of my parents in. Seeing it on a day to day basis, 

I have done gate duties, night duties, weekend duties, not because I got into Sh!t, because it was my turn.


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## Wookilar (10 Jun 2013)

:warstory: I once volunteered 17 times in a row for Base Duty Cpl. Saved a lot of people from doing that most boring of duties lol.

Which brings me to my point really. Many people have been saying that on larger bases, the duties should be spread nicely around.

There are a couple of things about that:

1) Many Adjt's/RSM's fight for more duty positions because they have any number of numpties they want to nail to provide with extra training. This can make it appear that certain units get more duties than others;

2) An unfortunate aspect of life on larger bases: duties are parcelled out proportionally (usually). If your unit has 15% of the base's population, you get 15% of the duties. However, what often happens, when said units are gone (tour, EX, whatever), their % of duties does not usually change. That leaves whatever is left of rear party to swallow the same number of duties for that period of time.


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## Tank Troll (10 Jun 2013)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> An unfortunate aspect of life on larger bases: duties are parcelled out proportionally (usually). If your unit has 15% of the base's population, you get 15% of the duties. However, what often happens, when said units are gone (tour, EX, whatever), their % of duties does not usually change. That leaves whatever is left of rear party to swallow the same number of duties for that period of time.



Then you'd get back and rear party would complain about how many duties they did while you were gone, and want the guys coming home to take over immediately. One of the RSM in the Strat's put in routine orders that rear party would continue to do duties till 2 weeks after the unit returned and it was like that for many years, don't know if it is still in effect.


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## Jacky Tar (10 Jun 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> If you mean by stupid flags up and down colors and sunset yes that's one of tasks as part of the duty watch. As for soldiers stuck on duty not taking their job seriously, well I guess that's the job of their OOD/SWK or whatever to ensure they are professional and taking it seriously.


:goodpost:


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## Jacky Tar (10 Jun 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And you are the voice of experience?
> Agreed, spend a weekend or so doing gate duty. Stop giving advice.
> 
> Oh I see, you're 19.



Which doesn't make him wrong. Or if you prefer, you're not right just because you're a C.O.B.


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## FormerHorseGuard (13 Jun 2013)

Getting back to the gate security not being manned, not really  a big deal. There were 3 drive thru gates at CFB Toronto, or what ever you remember its name as.
The gate off Shepard at DCIEM was open and seldom manned, the gate that actually led to DCIEM was always manned and they  took ID cards to get a pass to be admitted the rest of the way into the compound.
After 6 PM ( I do not recall the actual timings) the drive thru gate on the East side of the base was locked.
The main gate near the Fire Hall was manned after 6 PM , but they hardly ever did more than ask where you  were going, or for ID cards. Many times had to wake up the guard to get the light to change to green.

There was a gate from the Officer PMQs and it was not manned ( locked after 11 PM if I recall right) near what was LFCA or the SIU buildings
Gate from the Enlisted PMQs  near  the ball diamonds, was not manned and open till after 11 or later depending on what  was going on the various messes.

All the walk in gates were open for foot traffic ( never found one locked late at night).
The TTC bus Shepard 84A or 84B drove thru the base, and if you rang  the bell it would let you off at various stops thru the base, ( I remember at least 3 stops in the base), no questions for ID or stopping non military or military employees from getting off the bus.


I remember chatting with some SEALs doing training at DCIEM and how they  could not believe how easy it was to come and go at CFB Toronto. They were not use to the casual system in place.


I was on the Base Security Force for exercises and the number of people who were found not to have ID or proof they were suppose to be there.  Civilians were not to be detained or delayed, more than a casual search , or questioned for than other than ID check, not to upset the union or delay them from their jobs.
 I remember one of the Base Maint persons who was a civilian being stopped and put face down in a puddle during the exercise. He was wearing issue coveralls, no ID card or 404s  when stopped at the main gate driving a 5/4 ton SMP truck. The BDF guards thought he was part of the exercise , but turned out he was just test driving the truck after repairs, out one gate and in the other gate.
I remember the jokes and the laughs during the next meal break, but nothing came of it. They made sure every one driving did carry the 404s.

Manned gates are more important now but it will not stop any one from entering a base if they really want in, just might make the damage greater. 
Having duty persons doing the job, might be more a better use of man power than having the extra duty man washing cars at the B Transport, or picking rocks up at the main gate. At least basic soldier skills and training will be used.


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## mad dog 2020 (13 Jun 2013)

This is so ridiculous ! 
Military Bases being so lax, yet go near an airport. 
One whack a doodle with a shoe bomb and just look at him and we are almost down to our boxers.
But airport security is BiG business and lobbied and marketed as such.  All in the presentation and sales pitch. Fear mongering. The clowns employed at Pearson are a joke and at minimum wage really how effective. (Supervisor for the firm that had the contract at one time) 
I was posted to Base Security to Borden (civvies going to movies and McD's), The lisle gate if the gate guard was awake, Cornwallis which was small enough to recognize a threat, and Toronto which was dead at night.  I was in Borden during the enhanced security during the first Gulf War and BDF was deployed at the gates and on patrols. We had info to watch the schools and we did increase patrols. 
I remember Pet before the separation of Operational from residential.
In our world today is our security appropriate to the true threat level or more realistic. While other segments of society have created empires of security layers. 
We will really never know as being proactive is intangible to measure yet the reactive is measured in pain, heartache and sorrow.
It all boils down to cost, like insurance don't need it half the time but some glad when you do have it. Points to ponder and think when was the last direct threat and response.


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