# Canadian Heritage Flight



## Bandit1 (9 Aug 2007)

Hi all,

Just thought I'd pick your brains apart on this matter.

With a 3 ship of 104's available, a couple of CF-5's that'd still work over at Mountainview (especially if they're still painted in 419 colours), a CF-18 demo plane every year, at least a couple of functioning CF-86's in special paint schemes, along with many Spitfires and Mustangs, what would you guys think of a Canadian Heritage Flight?

Is it feasible?  Would it help increase attendance at air shows around the country?  Would it help the public realise just how rich an aviation heritage we have here in the country??

Let's discuss!


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## observor 69 (9 Aug 2007)

How about we give the Snowbirds BAE Hawks first?
Replace the aging Tutors and give pilots an aircraft they trained on. Bonus to flight safety.



http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/threads/63602.0.html


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## Bandit1 (9 Aug 2007)

I agree, the Snowbirds should be in Hawks. 

But that doesn't take away from a Heritage Flight discussion....the planes are there, they just need to be readied for flight - no? Apart from the CF-5's...and if I'm not mistaken, those are now leaving Mountainview and heading South for refurbishment...


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## aesop081 (9 Aug 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> How about we give the Snowbirds BAE Hawks first?



When i flew with the Snowbirds last april, i asked them about the Hawk. The answer was "i would rather not" in most cases.  Something about higher speed and keeping more of the show directly in front of the crowd.


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## Loachman (9 Aug 2007)

Being as this would come out of existing funding and personnel, what would you cut to do it?

Although, if they dragged one of the Kiowas out of Mountainview for me, I'd fly it for free and it doesn't burn much fuel and almost never breaks.

We never had CF-86s. We had Sabres. We were still using the more elegant and woody Brit name and mark system rather than a crass and tinny alphanumeric system back then.


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## Bandit1 (9 Aug 2007)

Personally, I wouldn't cut anything - rather I would see this as a showcase of Canadian Military Pride worthy of an expenditure.  If you wonder where I would find the money from if I had to, I'm sure there is plenty of spending that can be cut within other, more ineffective government programs than the military.  If need be it could fall under the jurisdiction of Heritage Canada...but I know that's a long shot at best.

Essentially all we're looking at paying for here is fuel - manpower wouldn't change because the only plane still considered in service would be the Hornet, which already comes with tech crews for both east and west.  I'm certain we could still find a pilot in our Forces who could fly CF-5's, and the Starfighters team has 3 more than capable birds w/ pilots who are also more than capable.  Paint one of them in former CF colours and it'd be good to go.  All the Spitfires, Hurricanes and Mustangs also have their own crews flying and maintaining them!

I'll call them Sabres from now on!


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## observor 69 (9 Aug 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> When i flew with the Snowbirds last april, i asked them about the Hawk. The answer was "i would rather not" in most cases.  Something about higher speed and keeping more of the show directly in front of the crowd.



http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/multimedia/ej.cfm?viewmedia=3    :'(

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/index.cfm?storyid=FC4BBFA8-1143-EC82-2EFDE76D3A17302C

Sorry wrong finger at work.


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## aesop081 (9 Aug 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/multimedia/ej.cfm?viewmedia=3    :'(
> 
> http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/index.cfm?storyid=FC4BBFA8-1143-EC82-2EFDE76D3A17302C
> 
> Sorry wrong finger at work.



I know......just relaying what i was told by the pilot beside me when we were upside-down.....

No more no less......


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## Bandit1 (9 Aug 2007)

Guys...we can spend all day talking about what we need and want.  Everyone has an opinion, whether it's about the Snowbirds, the Hercs, the Chinnies, etc...

What I'm talking about is something different though - heritage flight!  So maybe...can we stick to that topic?? 

With respect,

Bandit


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## aesop081 (9 Aug 2007)

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> What I'm talking about is something different though - heritage flight!  So maybe...can we stick to that topic??



Yeah sorry....

I like your idea but i think that its more apropriate as a joint Government & Private venture


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## Bandit1 (9 Aug 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yeah sorry....I like your idea but i think that its more apropriate as a joint Government & Private venture



I agree with you, but wouldn't the private side of it be handled by those civilians who own the planes already?


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## geo (9 Aug 2007)

Put all those fine workable aircraft on the Air museum's DA.
The air museum already maintains a number of serviceable / refurbished WW2 aircraft that are brought out for special occasions..... 
Let them look after the heritage flight.  I don't think it should be up to the CF to man maintain & fly the old birds.... IMHO


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## observor 69 (9 Aug 2007)

We have a military that is restricted in it's options by a tight budget.
We have the Snowbirds that have been seen, by those qualified, to require replacement of it's aircraft.
We do not have the financial freedom to start up a Heritage Flight.
Geo has it right, look at the Museum option.


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## aesop081 (9 Aug 2007)

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> I agree with you, but wouldn't the private side of it be handled by those civilians who own the planes already?



edit because i missread the info at hand.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmssc/ddsal/fixedwing_e.asp


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## Jammer (9 Aug 2007)

Call me crazy, but how about an R&O contact to the Canadian Warplane Heritage.


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## Globesmasher (11 Aug 2007)

The Heritage theme is a good one.
One of the best things I remember about air shows (and I don't go to them very often at all) was a long time ago back in Hamilton.
Seeing and hearing the warbirds fly was terrific - the Lancaster and the spitfire.
I would like to see more WW2 aircraft flying at airshows ... but that's just me.
To each his own ..... but the sound of those Merlins ..... well that is just music to my ears.


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## observor 69 (11 Aug 2007)

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> The Heritage theme is a good one.
> One of the best things I remember about air shows (and I don't go to them very often at all) was a long time ago back in Hamilton.
> Seeing and hearing the warbirds fly was terrific - the Lancaster and the spitfire.
> I would like to see more WW2 aircraft flying at airshows ... but that's just me.
> To each his own ..... but the sound of those Merlins ..... well that is just music to my ears.



In spite of my strong comment earlier against the Air Force spending it's limited dollars on this idea, I do like to see the old stuff up in the air.
I spent a year with these folk getting up close and personal with the nitty gritty of airplane restoration. 
I loved learning about the history and technology behind each successive generation of WWII aircraft. 

http://www.lonestarflight.org/index.php?pgid=1

In fact I find the big jet display teams kind of boring after seeing them over the years and much prefer to see the older stuff flying by.  

http://www.wingsoverhouston.com/index.htm


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## time expired (11 Aug 2007)

Great idea,but I think you have forgotten something,the CF100, the
Clunk was the only indigenous design to make a significant contribution
to our defense during the Cold War period, and surely a restorable
airframe can be found and put on the top of the priority list.
                                         Regards


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## geo (11 Aug 2007)

The Air museum has a good copy

Believe you might find other decent copies, w/o engines, displayed at the entrance to some base...


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## Bandit1 (13 Aug 2007)

time expired said:
			
		

> Great idea,but I think you have forgotten something,the CF100.



Agreed!  There are a couple of them up at Borden, as well as a few others scattered around the country.  We should probably include the T-33 in there as well, given that it had been such a stawart for so many years.

And just a question...what is an R&O?


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## aesop081 (14 Aug 2007)

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> Agreed!  There are a couple of them up at Borden, as well as a few others scattered around the country.



Baggotville and Comox each have one as well


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## Bandit1 (15 Aug 2007)

FYI...I'm pursuing this...I know it'll take time and all but I think that it's something worth trying for.

Any support (verbal encouragment) would be welcome, and I'll try to update this thread when I can with information.


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## krustyrl (30 Aug 2007)

Here's a fellow who has several flying Vintage Aircraft who flys out of the Airport in Gatineau.


http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/media/press_releases/14jul06.shtml


He is an avid collector and pilot .


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## Globesmasher (31 Aug 2007)

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> FYI...I'm pursuing this...I know it'll take time and all but I think that it's something worth trying for.
> 
> Any support (verbal encouragment) would be welcome, and I'll try to update this thread when I can with information.



Rather than re-invent the wheel and take on the huge associated workload (you can tell I'm truly lazy) ... why not try to contact the RAF.  They have a very active "Heritage Flight" from what I understand ... just the sort of thing you are trying to push for on this side of the Atlantic.

Might be worth a try.  Couldn't hurt.


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## Bandit1 (1 Sep 2007)

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> Rather than re-invent the wheel and take on the huge associated workload (you can tell I'm truly lazy) ... why not try to contact the RAF.  They have a very active "Heritage Flight" from what I understand ... just the sort of thing you are trying to push for on this side of the Atlantic.
> 
> Might be worth a try.  Couldn't hurt.



Thanks for the tip Globesmasher.  I've built up relationships with 1 CAD and found out that something is in the works, starting with the Centennial anniversary and maybe moving forward from there.  I'm getting a chance to meet with those involved this weekend at the air show here in Toronto to talk about it all.  I've also been in contact with the folks over at http://www.airshowbuzz.com (great site with great videos and stills) who fly and perform in the USAF Heritage Flight and will be talking with them alot more in the near future as well about things - as you said, easier not to re-invent the wheel.  

Thanks to all for their help....this WILL come together, and when it does, hopefully everyone in this country will see just how proud we should be of where we came from and where we're going.


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## Globesmasher (1 Sep 2007)

Oops - I shouldn't have called it the RAF Heritage Flight.
It is actually called the RAF Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight.

Checkout their website at http://www.bbmf.co.uk/

They keep and incredible inventory of WW2 aircraft flying for airshows etc .... and the aircraft are kept and maintained to modern day Technical Airworthiness Standards overseen by the MOD and RAF.  It's incredible.

There is no sound that beats the roar of those Merlin engines ........ goosebumps I tell ya'.

I think this is the sort of thing you're pursuing .... I think.


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## observor 69 (1 Sep 2007)

Globesmasher said:
			
		

> Oops - I shouldn't have called it the RAF Heritage Flight.
> It is actually called the RAF Battle Of Britain Memorial Flight.
> 
> Checkout their website at http://www.bbmf.co.uk/
> ...



In the latter years  of my career I did a lot of Flight Safety.  Upon retirement I found myself working as a volunteer at the Lone Star Museum in Galveston, TX.    http://www.lsfm.org/  
Goosebumps oh ya....but only from watching this organization flying heritage aircraft in shows and about the country.
At the time I figured it was just a matter of time before these Texans slowly destroyed their fleet due to a lack of professional standards of maintenance and operation.  
They're working on it.

If an organization is going to be set up to display and operate these rare and few in number aircraft best they be under the care of professionals.


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## Bandit1 (20 Sep 2007)

Some of the planes I wouldn't mind involving in the Flight....


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## Bandit1 (20 Sep 2007)

Some classic lines...


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## Bandit1 (28 Sep 2007)

Step one....done.

Vintage Wings of Canada (VWC) has acquired a Sabre! Canadair Sabre Mk V with RCAF s/n 23314, c/n 1104 and c/r N8687D arrived at the Gatineau Executive Airport on the 19 September 2007, at 11:19 AM. Ferry pilot Ron Iberg was at the controls. 

With the 100th anniversary of powered flight in Canada on the horizon (23 February 2009) VWC has been looking for a unique way to contribute to celebrations commemorating this event, beyond what it already does every day. Another significant piece of Canadian aviation history is the Golden Hawks display team, which was formed to celebrate the 50th anniversary of powered flight in Canada. VWC founder Michael Potter comments, “A wonderful way to recognize the 100th anniversary is to bring back a Golden Hawk Sabre. The Sabre has so many memories as a front line fighter of the Korean war era, and also the with Golden Hawks formation team that captured the hearts and minds of people all across Canada.” 

The plan is to make the aircraft available for public events. Tim Leslie, Chief of Flying Operations at Vintage Wings comments, “It is Vintage wings intention to fly the Sabre at a number of events celebrating the 100th Anniversary in 2009.” The airframe has been mothballed for almost 10 years. When the Sabre arrived in Gatineau via a ferry permit, the VWC crew started scoping the work required to prepare the jet for the 2009 season. Leslie continues, “The plan is prepare the aircraft over the winter in Gatineau and register the aircraft in Canada. Although many things can happen to alter the plan, we hope to have the Sabre flying by May. It will be painted in the distinctive red and gold colours of the Golden Hawks and will become known as ‘Hawk One’.” 

This new-to-VWC airframe is a jet, and is the first jet in the VWC collection. One might ask if the necessary skill-set is available to VWC for jet operations, but don’t be concerned, as a number of the VWC air crew are seasoned jet pilots, ready to step into the role of a Sabre pilot. Checking out on the Sabre are Tim Leslie, Mike Potter, Doug Mathews and Paul Kissman – all have jet time, some with thousands of hours. 

As for the long term operations of the Sabre, VWC isn’t looking beyond 2009 at this point, but rather is simply focusing on the mission to commemorate and educate. Leslie explains “It is something new for Vintage Wings to be operating a jet aircraft, and we will be easing ourselves into this type of operation. We feel the 2009 milestone, and recognizing the 50th anniversary of the Golden Hawks is in keeping with everything else we have done at Vintage Wings.” VWC’s three main purposes are to commemorate the achievements of our veterans, educate Canadians and inspire our youth. Leslie continues, “What we haven’t done yet is to pay tribute to the importance of the Cold War and Canadian aviators who flew during this period. This part of our history is often overshadowed by events of the Second World War or modern technologies like the CF-18. We need to remember there are a significant number of pilots and crew members from the 1950s and the 1960s who deserve to be recognized. We looked at how best to put an exclamation mark on the 100th anniversary of powered flight in Canada, and we hope Hawk One will be that exclamation mark.”


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## WannaBeFlyer (28 Sep 2007)

I got a picture of her from a friend here in Ottawa. I thought I would share. (Click to enlarge)





Here is another photo I found on the net.





Aircraft (FAA)
Manufacturer: Canadair 
Model: F-86 MK.5    Search all Canadair F-86 MK.5 
Year built: 1954 
Serial Number (C/N): 1104 
Mode S Code: 52767740 
Aircraft Type: Fixed wing single engine 
Number of Seats: 1 
Number of Engines: 1 
Engine Type: Turbojet 
Engine Manufacturer and Model: Orenda 14 
Source: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N8687D.html

Vintage Wings also purchased a Mustang with US markings. They repainted her in 442's markings and did and excellent job.
Here's a link if you are interested:
http://www.vintagewings.ca/rsrc/vwc/pdf/mustang.pdf

I can't wait to see what the Sabre will look like!


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## Bandit1 (28 Sep 2007)

She'll be in Golden Hawk colour scheme...


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## Bandit1 (30 Sep 2007)

This  is the type of promo video I'll be helping out on....I'd love to hear your thoughts...working with folks who have a common interest like these is just beyond anything that one could have imagined.  

We can't let our rich heritage and the lives of all those who paid for our freedom go without remembering.

Bandit


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## lotion (12 Oct 2007)

Nice looking Aircraft!


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## Spencer100 (12 Oct 2007)

Did the US AF use Canadair build Sabres?  Or was this one just painted to look like one?   Just interested in the history of that air frame.


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## aesop081 (28 Oct 2007)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Did the US AF use Canadair build Sabres?



No


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## time expired (29 Oct 2007)

According to my sources the USAF did indeed use Canadair built
Sabre CL-13s,they were used in Korea and referred to by the USAF
as F86E-6-CAN.The RAF also received 428 CL-13s which were know
to as Sabre Mk.4s.
                        Regards


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## old medic (29 Oct 2007)

http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/collections/artifacts/aircraft/CanadairSabre6.shtml



> In 1948 the RCAF chose the North American-designed F-86 Sabre as its next fighter, to fulfil its NATO commitment in Europe. These Sabres were built by Canadair in Montreal. Early Sabres were similar to their American counterparts, but the Sabre 5 and Sabre 6 had Canadian-designed-and-built Orenda engines. The Sabre 6, with its extra power and slatted wing, was the finest version of the airplane built by Canadair. Canadian Sabres served in Canada and with Canadians overseas, as well as in the air forces of *Britain, West Germany, South Africa, Columbia and the United States.*



   



> The F-86 was also manufactured by Canadair in Canada as the CL-13 Sabre to replace its de Havilland Vampires, with the following production models:
> 
> Sabre Mk 1
> one built, prototype F-86A
> ...


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## Spencer100 (29 Oct 2007)

Wow, thank for the reply and the info.  Interesting looking at the numbers built.  Imagine have 500 fighters in the airforce!


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## aesop081 (29 Oct 2007)

I am burning the eroneous book as we speak........ ;D


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## geo (30 Oct 2007)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Wow, thank for the reply and the info.  Interesting looking at the numbers built.  Imagine have 500 fighters in the airforce!


You're half right....
Sabre Mk2  287
Sabre Mk4   10
Sabre Mk5  295
Sabre Mk6  390
 Total to RCAF = 972


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## Spencer100 (30 Oct 2007)

WOW  Ok imagine 900+ in the Air Force.  And that was just one type!!    But did we have all that at the same time or did we retire the old marks as we recieved newer?    I have heard the earily jets did not have as long a life as todays.


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## K225 (2 Nov 2007)

The VWoC CL 13 Sabre is a Mk5 with MK6 wings installed. According to Tim Leslie she will have a zero timed Orenda 14 installed. 
VWoC can put together a pretty good heritage flight right now. They have a Mustang, Spitfire, Hurricane, and soon to be delivered P40 all in RCAF colours. Add to that the Harvard, Swordfish, Corsair and Lysander could be a very interesting display.
This shot shows the VWoC Sabre in her RCAF glory. The plan is to see her flying in Golden Hawks colours with the Snowbirds during 2009 the 100th anniversary of flight in Canada and the 50th anniversary of the formation of the Golden Hawks.


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## Bandit1 (27 May 2008)

Hello all...

There will be a lot more information on this in the coming months, so I thought I'd bring this thread back to life now.

Next year marks the Centennial anniversary of the Canadian Air Force, and there are special plans being made to mark this historic event.

One of these special plans is the creation of a Canadian Forces Heritage Flight which will illustrate the special colour schemes of the 4 major Demonstration Teams which hold a place in the history of our Air Force. The planes will be as follows:

1 x CF-18 -> expect a special paint scheme for the Centennial Celebration.

1 x Sabre -> to be painted in Golden Hawks colours (see below).

2 x CT-114 Tutors -> one in Snowbird colours, the other to be in Golden Centennaires colours (see below).

Cheers, and let's all look forward to what next year holds.

Bandit


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## bartbandyrfc (27 May 2008)

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> Hello all...
> 
> There will be a lot more information on this in the coming months, so I thought I'd bring this thread back to life now.
> 
> ...



Bandit,

Next year is definitely not the centennial of the Canadian Air Force.  It is actually the centennial of manned flight in Canada (and the British Empire).  John McCurdey was the first man in the British Empire to make a powered, heavier than air fight when he took off from a frozen lake at Baddeck, NS on 23 Feb 1909.  The aircraft was the Silver Dart, a replica of which exists at the National Aviation Museum. 

The Canadian Air Force had its first roots in the Canadian Air Corps, which was stood up on 16 Sep 1914 (2 officers, 1 Mechanic, and no aircraft).  This was an Imperial British organization that was manned by Canadians but controlled by Chief of the Imperial General Staff in London.  Later, the first semiofficial Canadian Air Force was born on 19 Sep 1918 and its first commander was Lt Col WA Bishop, VC DSO MC DFC.  This was an non permanent force that was established without serious government backing, remaining in place as an amateurish organization until a real air force was born on 1 April 1924.  This is the official birth date of Canada's Air Force because it was when King George the Fifth authorized the establishment of the RCAF (and the Air Council) by official Order in Council.  

Let's get our history right please.

BB


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## Bandit1 (27 May 2008)

My apologies for the erroneous statement.

Bandit


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## bartbandyrfc (27 May 2008)

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> My apologies for the erroneous statement.
> 
> Bandit



No problem.  I hope you learned something.

Per Ardua Ad Astra


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## Bandit1 (27 May 2008)

I most definitely did - thanks for the lesson, and I'll be sure to be accurate the next time I say something.

Bandit


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## K225 (28 May 2008)

The first planned event for the Hawk 1 is at Baddeck on Feb 23, 2009 in honour of the first flight. VWC have now finished the Corsair in the colours of Hammy Gray's aircraft and will be flying as soon a she gets her c of a. Also August should see the arrival of the P40 in Stocky Edward's colours. 
One of the pilots will be Chris Hadfield of astronaut fame how fitting.
Check out this:
http://www.vintagewings.ca/page?s=69&lang=en-CA


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