# Fasting in the CF



## R.O.S (6 Sep 2007)

I have tried to search fasting topics on this forum with no results. 

I am curious to know if there are any regulations to religious members in the CF on fasting. Muslims have a month of fasting, and so do Jews and certain Christians on some occasions. Fasting, as I have witnessed, creates lack of nutrition and an inability or at least diminishes effort in doing certain tasks. Things like exercising and learning are compromised. Many of my friends are Muslims and many of them do not fast as they fear it will impede on their ability to study, as they become tired and concentration levels fall. 

Now the question I have is whether fasting is discouraged or should be within the CF when on duty. It is not only a concern of personal safety, but the safety of fellow members. A unit needs to be effective, and even one day of fasting can compromise this. I do know there might be instances, whether it be training or on the field, where members will not be provided food at times, but there is a difference between not being able to eat and choosing not to eat.  

Also remember, even hydration (drinking water) is forbidden under certain guidelines within certain religions. I also want to point out that I understand that monotheistic religions are not the only ones out there, however I will admit to my ignorance and admit I do not know if fasting it practiced within them. If you know more please add.

* Keep this topic clean please, no religious bashing, just respectful discussion.


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## Remius (6 Sep 2007)

I'm curious to know which religion forbids hydration?

I'm no expert, but don't muslims who fast during Ramadan refrain from eating between sun up and sun down?

I suppose it becomes a matter of how strict the religion is and what exceptions are made.  I believe in the case of muslims, pregnant women and infants are exempt etc.


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## Armymedic (6 Sep 2007)

To answer Cantor question,
Sects of Islam prohibits eating, drinking, smoking, sex, etc from sunrise to sunset during Ramadan.

As per any other personal decision or sacrifice you make while in employment of the CF, you must inform/attain permission of your CoC before beginning. As there are certain physical and mental attributes that decrease with a dramatic increase of caloric or fluid intake, they must/should know and account for your decreased performance. Doing a BFT on the 5th day of Ramadan may not be the best thing for you to do.

That being said, people have been fasting for several millennia, be it by personal choice or not, and we still have survived. 

And given the obesity rates of our North American society, perhaps a little more fasting and a little less feasting may be in order.


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## GAP (6 Sep 2007)

It does not matter what the religion, an armed force requires its' active duty members to maintain themselves in such a state that they are not incapacitated by their religious duties. 

Depending on the environment and situation, the observance will probably be sometimes more spiritual than actual.


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## R.O.S (6 Sep 2007)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I'm curious to know which religion forbids hydration?



Islam forbids any form of drink or food during the holy month. Of course there are exceptions (pregnant, on medicine, sick, the young and old)




			
				St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> And given the obesity rates of our North American society, perhaps a little more fasting and a little less feasting may be in order.



Fasting is not a way to loose wieght. The one interesting fact is that many Muslims gain wieght during the holy month. Why is this? It is because at sunset there is very often a very large dinner that is served. I have seen this first hand with my friends who after ramadan is over they go to the gym.




			
				St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> That being said, people have been fasting for several millennia, be it by personal choice or not, and we still have survived.



It is a little be more difficult then that. What if a field doctor is not 100% because of fasting and needs to perform a life saving procedure? What if a soldier is firing a sniper rifle and his eye focus is not on target or hazy?

We have all once or twice been in situtations, whether religious or not, were we haven't eaten enough and found it difficult to perform needed tasks. There is a difference between not being able to eat and deciding not to eat. The CF does not sell flowers, they operate heavy machinery, and perform tasks that need each member to be as best prepared a *possible*.


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## Remius (6 Sep 2007)

I just read that if the fasting poses a threat to their health, a muslim can take it up at another time other than Ramadan.

http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=16&gps=89_437_1024_596&f=00&tt=12&bt=1&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.islamfortoday.com/ramadan01.htm


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## R.O.S (6 Sep 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> As per any other personal decision or sacrifice you make while in employment of the CF, you must inform/attain permission of your CoC before beginning. As there are certain physical and mental attributes that decrease with a dramatic increase of caloric or fluid intake, they must/should know and account for your decreased performance.



Is this an actual guidline within the CF? or is this just one of those 'you should' things? If it is a guidline that answers most of my concerns/questions.


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## Armymedic (6 Sep 2007)

R.O.S said:
			
		

> Fasting is not a way to loose wieght.



to "lose", actually it is...if done properly. Fasting is what we more commonly call dieting.

By defintion, from Dictionary.com:


> American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source fast 2       (fāst)  Pronunciation Key
> intr.v.   fast·ed, fast·ing, fasts
> 
> To abstain from food.
> ...


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## Armymedic (6 Sep 2007)

R.O.S.

I forgot the CF does not issue common sense...

Currently it is a "should" falling under COC/CO's discretion, I don't know of any printed regs.


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## Munxcub (6 Sep 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> to "lose", actually it is...if done properly. Fasting is what we more commonly call dieting.



and since when is "dieting" a healthy and correct way to lose weight? Is it not usually associated with a yo-yo?


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## medaid (6 Sep 2007)

I remember that there is a CF Guide to Religions or title to that effect available. Inside it outlines each religion and what type of things the COC should be aware of.


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## Remius (6 Sep 2007)

Yep. And it's as thick as the CF phonebook.  Scientology isn't included either.


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## Fusaki (6 Sep 2007)

> Is this an actual guidline within the CF? or is this just one of those 'you should' things? If it is a guidline that answers most of my concerns/questions.



http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol2/ch103_e.asp



> 103.31 – MALINGERING OR MAIMING
> 
> (1) Section 98 of the National Defence Act provides:
> 
> ...



I'll admit I'm not very savvy with the QR&Os, but this seems to be legal definition of malingering.

_*If*_ the purpose of fasting is to intentionally weaken your body in accordance with your religion, then in my mind that constitutes intent to render yourself unfit for service. Not too big a leap of logic, is it?


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## Remius (6 Sep 2007)

No, your logic is flawed.  The intent of fasting is for religious purposes not to render themselves unfit for service.  It might make them unfit, but the intent wasn't there.


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## HItorMiss (6 Sep 2007)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol2/ch103_e.asp
> If the purpose of fasting is to intentionally weaken your body *in accordance with your religion*, then in my mind that constitutes intent to render yourself unfit for service. Not too big a leap of logic, is it?



You missed the biggest par of your own statement which I highlighted. It's a religious choice and/or doctrinal necessity and as such falls into the Religious freedom clause of the QR&O's meaning that so long as it is covered in your  then it's not a crime (Within reason of course I can't go scalping just because I'm native).


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## Greymatters (6 Sep 2007)

I dont understand people with that kind of mindset. It has always been an implied understanding that if you join up, you willingly reduce your level of religious observance because ther isnt room for it regardless of religion.  As an example, we cant adapt to Quakers who wont ride in vehicles.  You can argue that its your right of religious observance to fast, but people with such strict observances, regardless of religion should think twice before joining.  If they are going to fast, then they will also want to not work on Fridays, the same way others do not want to work on Saturdays and Sundays, which can cause conflict and confrontations for the rest who arent as observant.  They may need kosher or (I forget the term for Muslims, 'falil'?) or otherwise approved foods which will not be available to them all the time.  They are pretty much making themselves into an administrative burden, for inexplicable reasons.


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## Remius (6 Sep 2007)

Greymatter, the CF has decided to try and accomodate religious observances as long as it doesn't affect operational requirements.  If a muslim wants to fast he can be accomodated.  If someone of the jewish faith doesn't want to eat pork that can be accomodated.  etc etc.  Whatever "administrative burden" they create, is outweighed by the cultural value they bring to the CF.  Over its history the CF has accomodated various "groups" and individuals to improve its effectiveness.


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## mudrecceman (6 Sep 2007)

cultural value?

why not just...value?


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## Remius (6 Sep 2007)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> cultural value?
> 
> why not just...value?



Well, cultural value can better aid the CF in its operations abroad.

But sure, the admin. burden of accomodating is outweighed by the value they bring to the CF.


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## razorguns (6 Sep 2007)

in the us : the military will do what it can to accomodate someone.  Usually it's not that difficult.   

Ideally, the onus should be on the person to 'accomodate' the military to his religion - not the other way around.  if they don't - one must question why they even joined in the first place (voluntary remember) and if they're even passionate about the military.  I know of many Sikhs who join the CF and work with the CF on accomodating because they're passionate about their duty. Works out for both sides.

btw: if it's a warzone and this person starts causing 'probles' cuz of his demand - he could simply be kicked out.

99.9% of the time - it isn't an 'issue'.  but makes for great debate threads.  lol.

r


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## Armymedic (6 Sep 2007)

Munxcub said:
			
		

> and since when is "dieting" a healthy and correct way to lose weight? Is it not usually associated with a yo-yo?



Sure, when you only do "dieting" to fit into the swim suit of wedding dress, and then go on to eat chocolate cake or a bag of chips the weekend after you hit your goal.

The new 21st century term is "healthy eating". 

And that is a form of fasting.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (6 Sep 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> I dont understand people with that kind of mindset. It has always been an implied understanding that if you join up, you willingly reduce your level of religious observance because ther isnt room for it regardless of religion.  As an example, we cant adapt to Quakers who wont ride in vehicles.  You can argue that its your right of religious observance to fast, but people with such strict observances, regardless of religion should think twice before joining.  If they are going to fast, then they will also want to not work on Fridays, the same way others do not want to work on Saturdays and Sundays, which can cause conflict and confrontations for the rest who arent as observant.  They may need kosher or (I forget the term for Muslims, 'falil'?) or otherwise approved foods which will not be available to them all the time.  They are pretty much making themselves into an administrative burden, for inexplicable reasons.



Interesting that there is little understanding of folks with a religious mindset yet there are lots of them in the CF and they weren't asked to leave their religious beliefs or practices at the door when they joined. That's why we have Base Chapels and Chaplains who deploy and go to sea or in the field with the troops...so that religious observances may be observed by those who wish to do so. For the most part our system is set up for the Judeo-Christian heritage...that's why you enjoy Saturday and Sunday off and not Friday and Saturday or any other day. Fish and chips are served in the messes every Friday because  Christians, mostly RCs used to fast from eating meat on Fridays. In recent years as stated by others we are working to accommodate other faith groups. We now have Faith Centres with spaces for other religions or philosophies to gather and pray or practice. We are hiring other religious leaders (we have an Imam in Edmonton now and a Rabbi in Ottawa). People can apply through the chain for Religious Accommodation for their holy days or practices....COs look at the request and usually use the Chaplains to research and speak with the member and his or her Faith leader to judge the reasonableness of the request and then a recommendation is made to the CO who will either say yes or no. As stated by others if the request interferes with Ops or duty a compromise is reached in order to try and accommodate the member. This is covered in QROs and CFAOs.
We now have at least 8 MREs in the system for Muslims (they are not allowed to eat pork either) and there are kosher meals coming too. There are accommodations for turbans for Sikhs and various things like long hair in braids for Aboriginals and wearing of medicine pouches.
Quakers by the way are pacifists and would never consider joining the CF or any other armed force if they are devote Quakers...as are most of the Mennonite groups.
there are many forces that have a lot of Muslims and Jews in them (Saudi Arabia and Israel for example) and they do just fine keeping their observances. It's always understood that operations come first and prayer and fasting later.
When I was at Gagetown we had two Muslims on SQ. One was a former Kuwaiti AF officer and the other was a young guy from a really strict family. They were in the field during Ramadan and they asked if they had to take water during the 13K marches. We consulted our Imam in Edmonton and he said they could put off their observances until the exercise was over...which they did and all was well. We also had to make accommodation for separate showers in the barracks (public nudity is a no no for them) and accommodation for them to keep their prayer carpets , Koran and other religious articles in their kit....all this was done and they did fine.
We are definitely seeking to become more diverse and more accommodating in the CF....this is official policy....we must do so in order to keep up with our demographic. Many of the Reserve units in the big centres now have far more "other faiths" in them than they have Christians or those of Christian origin. RMC has a lot of other religions included in their ranks as well. 
The CF is changing and the answer to the original question is we will be changing to accommodate folks who legitimately need to be accommodated.

By the way the Religions in Canada , thick as a phonebook ,was compiled by a government researcher and not the Chaplain Branch. It is riddled with errors and should not be used to base a decision for Religious accommodation. The SMEs are the Chaplains and they should be engaged when a request comes forward. If you don't you can be open to redress and having egg on your face. when you get a legal question you use the JAG....use the Chaplain when it comes to religious accommodation requests.


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## Strike (6 Sep 2007)

Right, you just said everything I wanted to.

+1


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## Greymatters (6 Sep 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Interesting that there is little understanding of folks with a religious mindset yet there are lots of them in the CF and they weren't asked to leave their religious beliefs or practices at the door when they joined. That's why we have Base Chapels and Chaplains who deploy and go to sea or in the field with the troops...so that religious observances may be observed by those who wish to do so. For the most part our system is set up for the Judeo-Christian heritage...that's why you enjoy Saturday and Sunday off and not Friday and Saturday or any other day. Fish and chips are served in the messes every Friday because  Christians, mostly RCs used to fast from eating meat on Fridays. In recent years as stated by others we are working to accommodate other faith groups. We now have Faith Centres with spaces for other religions or philosophies to gather and pray or practice. We are hiring other religious leaders (we have an Imam in Edmonton now and a Rabbi in Ottawa). People can apply through the chain for Religious Accommodation for their holy days or practices....COs look at the request and usually use the Chaplains to research and speak with the member and his or her Faith leader to judge the reasonableness of the request and then a recommendation is made to the CO who will either say yes or no. As stated by others if the request interferes with Ops or duty a compromise is reached in order to try and accommodate the member. This is covered in QROs and CFAOs.
> We now have at least 8 MREs in the system for Muslims (they are not allowed to eat pork either) and there are kosher meals coming too. There are accommodations for turbans for Sikhs and various things like long hair in braids for Aboriginals and wearing of medicine pouches.
> Quakers by the way are pacifists and would never consider joining the CF or any other armed force if they are devote Quakers...as are most of the Mennonite groups.
> there are many forces that have a lot of Muslims and Jews in them (Saudi Arabia and Israel for example) and they do just fine keeping their observances. It's always understood that operations come first and prayer and fasting later.
> ...



All valid reasons, well presented.  I guess I just have to get used to the change...


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## Fusaki (6 Sep 2007)

> No, your logic is flawed.  The intent of fasting is for religious purposes not to render themselves unfit for service.  It might make them unfit, but the intent wasn't there.



So what _is_ the intent of religious fasting?


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## Strike (6 Sep 2007)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> So what _is_ the intent of religious fasting?



Try Google and find out.  There are enough Muslims in the world it's easy enough to find.  And, given that the fasting tradition is based in the time of Abraham, the relationship to their fasting and that of other religions is similar.


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## Remius (6 Sep 2007)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> So what _is_ the intent of religious fasting?



I provided a link a few posts above about fasting during Ramadan, it also mentions the exceptions for women and children etc.

From what I understood it has to do with being pure in the eyes of God. And it isn't just food and drink, it includes sex, pornography and so on.  There are many internet resources.  I'm no expert, but I know the intent isn't to render themselves unfit for service in the Canadian Forces.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (7 Sep 2007)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> So what _is_ the intent of religious fasting?



Fasting is not just a Muslim tradition...it has roots in all major religions. Christians have a fasting tradition too although it's not widely practiced in the West any more. It is a way of concentrating on prayer and getting in tune with the spiritual side instead of worrying about material and physical needs. It is a denial of self...something a lot of Westerners could use a few lessons in.

As it's been pointed out there is a lot of informaton available on this on the Net and of course Chapters would have stuff about it if one is serous about learning about it.


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## Roy Harding (7 Sep 2007)

I have served with Muslim servicemen (Officers and NCMs) on operations.  Most folks around them were not even aware of their religion - as most folks were not aware of my own, it's not a subject that comes up on a daily basis for most of us.  I was surprised to learn of their religion - which knowledge was only gleaned as our professional relationship became more personal, as those relationships do when your jobs put you in close and constant contact with another individual.

As for fasting - my friends both stated that they would not fast, as that would impair their operational effectiveness - they were pretty sure that Allah would understand.  Somewhat along the lines that a Catholic is pretty sure God understands when they miss Sunday Mass because they were busy on operations.

In 99.9% of cases, religion is not an issue.  In the .1% of cases,  I'm convinced that if they weren't playing the religion card, they'd find something ELSE to whine, bitch, moan and complain about.  Some folks just have a need to be perceived as a victim - if religion is the easiest way to accomplish this goal, that's what they'll use.


Roy


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## geo (7 Sep 2007)

R.O.S said:
			
		

> Islam forbids any form of drink or food during the holy month. Of course there are exceptions (pregnant, on medicine, sick, the young and old)


During Ramadan, the faithful do not eat during the day.... but once night has fallen, Ohhhh - that's another story altogether.  Lots of eating!

Furthermore, fasting is a question of judgement.  If it is going to put the soldier and his comrades in peril, he won't do it... and the relkigion does provide for the situation.


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## retiredgrunt45 (9 Sep 2007)

> Fasting is not just a Muslim tradition...it has roots in all major religions. Christians have a fasting tradition too although it's not widely practiced in the West any more. It is a way of concentrating on prayer and getting in tune with the spiritual side instead of worrying about material and physical needs. It is a denial of self...something a lot of Westerners could use a few lessons in.



 Very true. We in the western hemisphere give the phrase "take for granted" a whole new meaning.


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## Ex-Dragoon (10 Sep 2007)

Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled _Fisting in the CF_ at Army.ca. 

I busted a gut.....


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## IN HOC SIGNO (10 Sep 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled _Fisting in the CF_ at Army.ca.
> 
> I busted a gut.....



...and then you made it even funnier by telling him that the Padre was having quite a bit to say on the topic right??  ;D


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## R.O.S (10 Sep 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled _Fisting in the CF_ at Army.ca.
> 
> I busted a gut.....



Makes this statement all the more true "Acocdrnig to an elgnsih unviesitry sutdy the oredr of letetrs in a wrod dosen't mttaer, the olny thnig thta's iopmrantt is that the frsit and lsat ltteer of eevry word is in the crorect ptoision. The rset can be jmbueld and one is stlil able to raed the txet wiohtut dclftfuiiy."

lol, fisting ;D


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## Munxcub (11 Sep 2007)

Without difficulty yes... without eye strain and headaches no...  ;D


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## Armymedic (11 Sep 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Nothing to do with the topic but I was at work today and had army.ca up (yeah yeah) and one of the officers walked by, took a look and said "Oh my god...they have a topic alled _Fisting in the CF_ at Army.ca.



Clarify, that was a Naval officer? Is he afraid the army is infriging on traditional naval terrain?   >


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## geo (11 Sep 2007)

Yetch...

Puts a whole new meaning to the term "tight fisted"


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Sep 2007)

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/countries/bl_BangladeshIslamTenets.htm



> The ninth month of the Muslim calendar is Ramadan, a period of obligatory fasting in commemoration of Muhammad's receipt of God's revelation. During the month all but the sick, the weak, pregnant or lactating women, *soldiers on duty*, travelers on necessary journeys, and young children are enjoined, as appropriate to their state in life, from eating, drinking, smoking, and sexual intercourse during daylight hours. The wealthy usually do little or no work during this period, and some businesses close for all or part of the day. Since the months of the lunar calendar revolve through the solar year, Ramadan falls at various seasons in different years. Summertime fasting imposes considerable hardship on those who must do physical work. Id al Fitr, a feast celebrated throughout the Islamic world, marks the end of the month of fasting. Gifts, the wearing of new garments, exchanges of sweetmeats, almsgiving, and visits to friends and relatives are some of the customs of this great religious festival.



I also recall a conversation with an Indian officer regarding turbans/helmets and beards/ respirators. The answer was basically the safety of the soldier is paramount. God will understand and would prefer the soldier be protected, than sacrifice himself or others needlessly. If that means helmets and gas mask instead of turban and beard, so be it. Same goes for fasting and prayer. Many times our interpreter preferred us to vacate an area and wait, rather than pray at the alotted time. When questioned why, he said Allah had no wish to harm and he would understand if he couldn't pray.


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## R.O.S (11 Sep 2007)

Thank you recceguy for answering my original concern.


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## MG34 (13 Sep 2007)

So 3 pages of mumbo jumbo and social experiment goodness we arrive at the same answer voiced on page 1,that it is all conditional on the type of duty and situation the soldier faces. This applies to all religious cults and races in the CF, do what you want until the needs of the service outweigh whatever the witch doctor told you to do, and that is the way it should be, all this touchy feely multicultural BS does nothing but destroy cohesion in the CF as suddenly some are MORE equal than others based on race and religion.


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