# Military Arts and Science Program



## The Bread Guy (20 Aug 2006)

Since I've been out for some time now, just wondering if this is a micro-staff college course, or what?  Anybody have any feedback (good/bad) on this? 

 Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

*Arming soldiers with more knowledge*
Paul Dalby, Toronto Star, 17 Aug 06
http://tinyurl.com/ehsh7

The Canadian Armed Forces' long-standing boast that "there's no life like it" finally starts to sound like the real deal, thanks to an exciting new venture in continuing education. 

The Armed Forces is doing something it has never permitted before: It's allowing the civilian world to educate its non-commissioned members.

(Lack of reporter backgrounding alert)  The Canadian Defence Academy, which supervises the training and education of all military men and women, has teamed up with Loyalist College in Belleville to design a new diploma course for the non-commissioned members — *master sergeants down to corporals*.

The distance learning course, entitled Military Arts and Sciences, will be offered by Loyalist to military personnel through the OntarioLearn.com website, starting in September. 

By next January's second intake, it's expected that all 20 of Ontario's community colleges will have signed agreements with the Defence Academy to also offer the course.

Enlisted men and women will be able to access the course from anywhere in the world that they may be serving — even in war-torn Afghanistan, as long as they are in a barracks situation where computers are available.

What makes the Military Arts and Sciences course unique is that it will also be open to civilian members of the National Defence Department, high schoolers contemplating a career in uniform and a general public just curious to know more about the way the Canadian military operates.

"We anticipate the first enrolment of (defence department) personnel will be around 15,000 to 20,000 people. But with the wider civilian application, the sky's the limit," says Jim Barrett, director of learning management at the Defence Academy in Kingston.

"This is a first and it's very, very Canadian," Barrett says. "Most countries focus on the officer corps but I believe Canada is almost alone in thinking of the non-commissioned members, who we believe are the backbone of the armed forces."

"This new course means that the non-commissioned members are getting the same access to education as the officers, all the way from seamen to admiral and infantryman to general."

The course will coach the non-commissioned members in the laws of armed conflict, operational planning and Canadian military history. 

The new online diploma also includes component courses on leadership, management, communications, ethics, attitudinal skills, and also as a mandatory requirement of the Ontario Ministry of Education — lectures on racism and discrimination.

The two-year diploma course parallels the degree course already offered to trainee officers at the Royal Military College. In fact, the two training programs, one inside the military and one outside, are linked: The diploma will count for 10 of the 30 credits needed for the degree course so non-commissioned members have the potential to keep upgrading their skills. 

Canada's military leadership wanted the new course to train the non-commissioned members to make better decisions out in the field, particularly after the tragic events in Somalia. 

"In Somalia we had forces in the field that were juggling a military role, humanitarian needs and peacekeeping duties," Barrett says.

"They were clearly not prepared for that juggling act." 

In late 1992, the 900 soldiers of the Canadian Airborne Regiment were sent to Somalia on a difficult peacekeeping mission.

An elite commando unit, the Airborne arrived in Somalia when the country had just been through famine and civil war.

It had no government and roving gangs terrorized the country.

In 52C heat, discipline started to wilt. The following March, two Somalis were shot by soldiers on patrol at the compound. One was wounded, the other was shot dead. An army surgeon revealed the man had lived for a few minutes, then was shot "execution-style in the head." 

Then 12 days later, a 16-year-old was tortured and murdered on the base. One of the soldiers involved took "trophy" pictures of the torture.

The Airborne Regiment was disbanded by the Canadian government and a commission of inquiry set .

One of its conclusions was that the non-commissioned members of the armed forces needed better training. 

A decade later that dream became a reality when the Canadian Defence Academy was set up to overhaul the military's education program and supervise existing officer-training establishments like the RMC. 

The Defence Academy contacted Loyalist College, Ontario's smallest community college but the owner of strong academic credentials and also close ties to the military community in nearby Trenton.

"It really was a test of the college system, and how quickly we could hit the ground running," says Trudie Lake, manager of continuing education at Loyalist.

Lake spent a year designing the new course together with the academy's academic staff officer David Emelifeonwu.

"We had to find out what they were looking for so we showed them all 400 courses that we offer," Lake explains. "They could pick out what they needed, then we sat down with their military textbooks. 

"Clearly the military sees the use of the community colleges' system to train its personnel as a smart use of taxpayers' money and it won't be limited to Ontario."

"We plan to expand the Military Arts and Sciences course to other provinces in the next couple of years so that you will be able to take the course from coast to coast," Emelifeonwu says.

The success of this diploma course has sparked talk of involving community colleges in other apprenticeship programs offered by the military.

"They told us right off the bat that this was a pilot program and it's a test to see what you can do," Loyalist's Lake says. "But they also told us there were bigger things down the road so we knew we had to get it right."

At the academy, Barrett thinks the new link with the community colleges is the way of the future.

"I'm a retired air force officer and when I went through training, the armed forces did all the training," he says. "The military world was completely isolated from the civilian world. That position is no longer tenable." 

Canada may not have the largest armed forces in the Western world, Barrett says, "but with the introduction of this new diploma course it will have one of the best-educated ones."


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## Gunner (20 Aug 2006)

> "This is a first and it's very, very Canadian," Barrett says. "Most countries focus on the officer corps but I believe Canada is almost alone in thinking of the non-commissioned members, who we believe are the backbone of the armed forces."



This certainly sounds like a step forward but the US is well out in front of the CF in terms of developing its senior non-commissioned members (ie Sgt Major's Academy).  



> Canada's military leadership wanted the new course to train the non-commissioned members to make better decisions out in the field, particularly after the tragic events in Somalia."In Somalia we had forces in the field that were juggling a military role, humanitarian needs and peacekeeping duties," Barrett says."They were clearly not prepared for that juggling act."



Maybe I'm being obtuse but if this is one of the reasons for the course, it is 13 years too late.  Moreover the skill level resident within the army is much different today after experiencing Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, etc, etc.


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## paracowboy (20 Aug 2006)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm being obtuse but if this is one of the reasons for the course, it is 13 years too late.


and this surprises you? That puts it right on track.


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## Quag (20 Aug 2006)

I know Algonquin College in Pembroke is offering this program.

Sounds great to me.


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## Gunner (20 Aug 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> and this surprises you? That puts it right on track.



Call me an optimist but yeah, it does.


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## rz350 (21 Aug 2006)

I wonder if I could take the courses and have the credits transferred to a liberal B.a program (so I could take all the info from that program, add in some more credits, and have a University degree, instead of a college diploma)

I'l have to look into that.


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## Quag (21 Aug 2006)

Some universities will allow you to transfer college credits.  For example, my university:

Arts Degree-Diploma Completion Program

Laurentian University provides students who have completed a college diploma in an appropriate academic program with a GPA of 3.2 (80%) or better, the opportunity to complete a General Arts degree in one calendar year through the Arts Degree-Diploma Completion Program. Instead of receiving transfer credits, an individual program of study is established for each student.

Students who are not eligible for the Arts Degree-Diploma Completion Program may receive transfer credits for their college studies (see chart below).







Candidates presenting a GPA of C or better on one year of a diploma program may be admitted to Laurentian University, on probation (they must pass 24 of the first 30 credits to clear the probationary status).

Grading scheme for college GPA

A 3.2 or 80%

B 2.8 or 70%

C 2.0 or 60% 

Hope that helps a little

~Quag


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## rz350 (21 Aug 2006)

That does help, thanks. 

My university (athabasca) has no residency requirment for the program I am in, so I could take as many credits on letter of premission as I want. *I called them and asked about it* 

I might just end up taking some/all of them credits and sending em towards my degree.


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## glenndon (21 Aug 2006)

Here's the link to the course at Algonquin College:

http://www.algonquincollege.com/distance/Certificates/DMAS.htm

Glenn


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## Bergeron 971 (26 Sep 2006)

Well here's something interesting, Walking through the PPSI building at Algonquin college I noticed a poster advertising a new course offered full time -on line.

*Military Arts and Science.*
Link: http://www.algonquincollege.com/distance/Certificates/DMAS.htm

PROGRAM DESCRIPTION 
The aim of the diploma in Military Arts and Sciences is to provide Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs) of the Canadian Forces and those interested in military affairs, a comprehensive knowledge of leadership, critical thinking, security studies, resource management, and communication skills deemed essential to the functioning of modern military or large corporations. This diploma will serve as a recognized component of the Non-Commissioned Members training. 

PATHWAYS TO UNIVERSITY DEGREE 
Qualified students can complete a university degree at the Royal Military College with whom Algonquin has an articulation agreement. For more details, see the Transfer Guide section of this calendar, or contact Carole Smith, Administrative Coordinator (smithc@algonquincollege.com).  


cheers.


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## aesop081 (26 Sep 2006)

been discussed here already a month or so ago......


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## brihard (27 Sep 2006)

http://www.algonquincollege.com/distance/Certificates/DMAS.htm


Hmm... Might have to look into this for a couple part time credits, just for fun.


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## Rice0031 (19 Oct 2006)

Agreed, I'm on campus everyday.
I am gonna go have a look-see.


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## Spanky (19 Oct 2006)

I guess it would have to be online in order to keep the protesters from hassling it. :rage:


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## blacktriangle (19 Oct 2006)

Seems like good post secondary for me..thank you for posting that!


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## Demeld (1 Nov 2006)

Hello Folks,

Please allow me to introduce myself, I am Dr. David Emelifeonwu, Academic Staff Officer with the Canadian Defence Academy/RMC.  I am responsible for the implementation of this program--Diploma in Military Arts and Science.  I have enjoyed reading your posts and I am very pleased with your comments.  I am not a CF member but a civilian DND employee.  I have a couple of favours to ask of all of you:  first, if there are any recommended changes to improve the program please pass them along to me.  My e-mail address is emelifeonwu.dc@forces.gc.ca  I want you folks to own the program. Second, how best can we market the program? I certainly think that sites such as this one is way avenue by which to market the program.  Are there other marketing strategies you could share with me? Do the other CF environments have sites such as this? By the way the Toronto Star article is not the only piece on this program.  The Ottawa Citizen recently published an article on this program as well.  if you folks are interested in the Citizen article I am more than happy to pass along the web link.   Thanks for allowing me to post messages in this site.

Cheers,
David


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## Journeyman (1 Nov 2006)

Demeld said:
			
		

> Are there other marketing strategies you could share with me?



Good work. 

Based on some of the initial responses/discussion here, you may want to place greater emphasis on using this as a route towards a university degree (without, of course, detracting from the benefits of the diploma in its own right).

And while I'll give the benefit of the doubt that it was the reporter and not CDA, please drop the Somalia references. As noted by others here, it rings hollow given the 13 year gap. Perhaps more importantly, pretty much everyone in the CF is tired of getting painted with that brush, so it being continued by a DND organization is more likely to turn troops off.....notwithstanding anyone with a passing familiarity with the situation seeing it as a leadership failure [officer and NCM] rather than a lack of education  (I can't see having a diploma causing either Matchee or Brown to suddenly go, "oh hey, maybe we _shouldn't_ beat this kid to death" ).


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## Demeld (1 Nov 2006)

Somalia is the reporter's not CDA's. 

David


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## TangoTwoBravo (1 Nov 2006)

Demeld,

First off, let me welcome you to the site and say that I'm impressed that you've ventured in here.  This looks like an excellent program for serving soldiers to continue their education and further their professional development.

You may not be able to answer this, but will this course start to factor into NCO career progression?  I can see some benefits to that, but I can also see some drawbacks.  Any thoughts from the WOs and Sgt's mess here?

Cheers


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## 043 (1 Nov 2006)

R5,

I think that it will have some influence for sure. However, in the same way that a Safety Management, HA, etc crse will. All the points for all the courses add up. 

Chimo!


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## letsgotitans (5 May 2008)

Good evening;

My name is Mike. I am currently in my application process to join the Canadian Forces Reserves and I have came across this program offered in my school. 

I will make this nice and simple and just ask, has anybody and/or does anybody know anything about this program? 

Any replies back will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers;

Mike F.

Here is a link for the course program.

http://www.niagaracollege.ca/studying/programs/fulltime/dmas_0590/


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## benny88 (6 May 2008)

Looks like a cool program. Seems that you can tranfer credits towards an RMC degree too. Sorry Mike I have no additional info, but good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## The Bread Guy (6 May 2008)

Welcome, letsgotitans - "search" can be your friend....

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/50991.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49178.0.html


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## McD (14 Jun 2010)

I was just curious if anyone has explored this route? Milnetnews.ca 's links (end of page 2 ) Lead me to the start of this thread, while the other was "off limits" OR "dead/deleted".

I was simply searching for any online programs with Humber (Ontario Colleges) that may seem interesting. Programs with open start dates and done at your  own pace i.e. Electricalmechanical Technician @GBChttp://coned.georgebrown.ca/owa_prod/cewskcrss.P_Certificate?area_code=PA0029&cert_code=CE0184  , and this obviously caught my interest. I am not putting the cart before the course here just curious if anyone has explored this or know folks who have and their experiences.

I don't and will not have time for something like this program as I would first like to attain a degree in a previously studied area but I am curious how this worked out. Or if it hasnt at all.

 Thanks

*note I searched "MILITARY ARTS AND SCIENCE DIPLOMA PROGRAM" and only this hit. If Iam unknowingly ressurecting a dead and beaten horse, I stand down and will get back to searching.


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## AmmoTech90 (14 Jun 2010)

http://www.rmc.ca/aca/ac-pe/ug-apc/dcs-dep/ap-pu-eng.asp

Try there.  I enrolled in the programme years ago.  It has gone from being pretty good to what I consider quite expensive for what you get.  I realize you can get it subsidized by DND to a certain extent, but I have become disappointed with the quality of the last few courses I have taken.


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## Journeyman (14 Jun 2010)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> ...... but I have become disappointed with the quality of the last few courses I have taken.


No requirement to name names or point fingers, but.......in what way?


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## McD (14 Jun 2010)

THIS is what I was fearing. There is an ILP for subsidies but my experience with anything Ontario Colleges get into, is  the prices climb and instructor quality is a roller coaster from the TOP to the very bottom. Again MY experience .

Still sounds interesting and worth further consideration if it would stand to help your career. I have alot of mandatory learning to do yet before this would be an avenue to explore. I am going to call tomorrow, Iam curious now. 


Keep it comming.


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## AmmoTech90 (15 Jun 2010)

Lack of feed back from the profs is the main one.

Lack of clarity in the text books/readers that caused me to seek feedback from profs.

Lack of guidance on what to expect for finals.  Now I know that you shouldn't be led by the hand through what is on a final, but in a residential course you get to know the prof to a certain extent and see what they stress and what gets dismissed.  This allows you develop an understanding/foreshadowing/something of what to expect.  This is pretty much impossible in a distance course and I recall that in some of the earlier courses you would have an exam outline (general multiple choice questions (25%), short answer based on subjects xyz (25%), and a choice of one of three essay (50%)) to help study from.

RMC has started nickle and dimeing for ever little change, and not necessarily in the nickle and dime range.  I know things are tough all over, but $50 to change programmes?  I've been at RMC for the last year, and I know that the process can be done by a phone call and five minutes.  The one that really gets me is the $250 for a PLAR.  This is military unit assessing the skills of a military member to allow them to develop professionally.

I started getting a hints a few years ago through this programme that RMC was getting out of touch with supporting the military side of things, especially military anywhere south of Highway 2.  The warning not to register yet because of potential budget cuts that is on their webpage seems to support that.


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## Journeyman (15 Jun 2010)

Seen. Thanks.


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## meni0n (15 Jun 2010)

I actually got an ILP approved to do the BMASc at RMC and also had to get a PLAR done although the 250$ and the application fee was reimbursed thru 
the ILP.  The only credits I got were from my second language profile. Nothing for military courses or my non credit diploma from another university.


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## McD (15 Jun 2010)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> http://www.rmc.ca/aca/ac-pe/ug-apc/dcs-dep/ap-pu-eng.asp
> 
> Try there.  I enrolled in the programme years ago.  It has gone from being pretty good to what I consider quite expensive for what you get.  I realize you can get it subsidized by DND to a certain extent, but I have become disappointed with the quality of the last few courses I have taken.




How did you find the course load? Time line wise?


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## AmmoTech90 (15 Jun 2010)

The course load is what you make of it as you don't have to take a set number of courses at a time.  I found that taking one course at a time was very manageable, two courses could get a bit hectic especially if work intruded.  I never tried continuing one over a deployment or military course.


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## McD (15 Jun 2010)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> The course load is what you make of it as you don't have to take a set number of courses at a time.  I found that taking one course at a time was very manageable, two courses could get a bit hectic especially if work intruded.  I never tried continuing one over a deployment or military course.



Understood, thanks. Id imagine the 6 RMC classes are a bit more intense. Hopefully better represented and lead than the rest of the program.


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## AmmoTech90 (15 Jun 2010)

McD said:
			
		

> Understood, thanks. Id imagine the 6 RMC classes are a bit more intense. Hopefully better represented and lead than the rest of the program.



What 6?  There is no residential requirement that I know of.  If you mean the OPMEs then they are also run outside of RMC by Canadian Defence Academy.  I found them to be actually easier than the RMC courses.


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## McD (15 Jun 2010)

I am not as familiar with this as you but here is where I got that from...

"RMC CoursesBAE101* Introduction to Defence Management and Decision Making 
PSE123*Fundamentals of Human Psychology
HIE208*Canadian Military History: A Study of War and Military History: 1867 to the Present
HIE275*Survey of Technology, Society and Warfare 
POE206*The Canadian Forces and Modern Society: Civics, Politics and International Relations
POE488*The Law of Armed Conflict"

http://www.cda.forces.gc.ca:80/dli-dai/dmasc-dascm/index-eng.asp#RMC

And / Or 

https://www.senecac.on.ca/ce/programs/military_arts_science.html


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## KrazyHamburglar (15 Jun 2010)

After I finished my Chemical Engineering degree at RMC, I found that I wanted more of the history and politics courses... so I enrolled in the BMASc at RMC, I really don't need it but it's mostly by personal interest...

I got an ILP approved and am currently doing one course each semester. Like Ammotech said, you basically choose your own course load. I find that one course is very manageable with work and I find that most teachers are very understanding of military life in general and most of the time, will gladly accommodate someone if he needs a little more time to submit assignment or do exams. Being in the navy, I had more than once needed a modification of the exam schedule to do the exam while I was ashore in Halifax and never had to fight or complain for such a thing, everything was handled smoothly, it was a question of one or two emails.

I have to agree with the lack of info on the finals but most teachers, if asked, will gladly go over the format of the exam. In general, for the assignment, I find that the essay questions are generally quite vague but on the other side, I find that the teachers will accept pretty much anything if it is well written with a solid and logic argumentation. I even once or twice asked to write about a different subject than the required one because I taught the given subject was quite boring. Again, it you substantiate your opinion and give the prof the angle you want to use to tackle your subject, most of them are very happy to oblige and it provides them with something different to read.  
To conclude this part, you are your best teacher, you can either do the minimum to pass and get a check in the box or you can take charge of your education and explore the areas of the subject that really interest you, it's all up to you... 

As for operations, I was able to complete a course while I was on deployment in Haiti during OP Hestia, it was very challenging having to study while doing the operation and thinking back I think it was plain crazy but on another aspect, it forced me to think about something else. Being on a ship, I know access to internet and study spaces is probably easier than during any land operations... For military courses, I guess it depends what kind of courses you're doing, I probably would not attempt doing a university course during a military course that requires spending any extended period of time in the field... On the plus side, at RMC, but only for operational reasons, (not sure it a last minute military course goes into that category) they allow you to drop the course without any impact on your academic history.

Of course, this is all from personal experience and yours may vary


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## AmmoTech90 (15 Jun 2010)

Those course you listed are all either correspondence and/or OPMEs, no residential, although some OPMEs can be done on-site, across the country, with local profs drafted in.

The diploma programme is not the same as the BMASc although many courses are the same, you do not come away with a bachelors.


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## KrazyHamburglar (15 Jun 2010)

Yes, the DMASc and BMASc are not the same but the core part is, it seems it's only a question of credit number...

As for those 6 courses, they are both given as residential at RMC and by correspondence since they are core components of many RMC degrees and diplomas.



			
				McD said:
			
		

> Understood, thanks. Id imagine the 6 RMC classes are a bit more intense. Hopefully better represented and lead than the rest of the program.


If you choose to do either residential or correspondence for RMC courses, do not expect anything different from any other university, really it all depends of the teachers, some are really good, some, not so much... same thing for intensity, it depends on the teacher and the amount of work you actually want to put into it.


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## McD (16 Jun 2010)

Understood. Thanks gentlemen, it looks interesting-purely from a knowledge growth stand point. A * complementary * bit of education. 

I am going to focus on BMQ and getting trade qualified before taking on anything like this. However,  the input here will still ring clear should this become an option in/for my future.

God willing all goes well before, during, and after my training. Thank you.

Edit * In bold. My dunce cap is now firmly secured.


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## Journeyman (16 Jun 2010)

KrazyHamburglar said:
			
		

> To conclude this part, you are your best teacher, you can either do the minimum to pass and get a check in the box or you can *take charge of your education*....


This should be beaten into students at a very early stage .... in a lovingly and informative manner, of course.



> As for operations, I was able to complete a course while I was on deployment


I started my BA through correspondence. I got some strange looks while studying 17th Century Anglo-Dutch naval warfare, while in Bosnia's Drvar Valley  



> Yes, the DMASc and BMASc are not the same but the core part is, it seems it's only a question of credit number...


Although the reading material seems similar, I suspect you'd find the marking is based on higher expectations for the BA assignments.


Oh, and McD......


			
				McD said:
			
		

> A complimentary bit of education.


I believe you meant "complementary," as in "contributory, or making one complete" as opposed to "complimentary," as in "damn, aren't you pretty."

[Education will do that to you.......if you've got teachers who know the difference    ]


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## McD (16 Jun 2010)

Journeyman, thanks for pointing that out. As it would happen, of course I had to be speaking about education at the time. Corrected.

Thanks.


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## StudentGrant (23 Oct 2010)

Interesting comments.

I enrolled on the BMASC a few months back, and am now about halfway through my first course (ENE151) and have registered for my next course (BAE101), due to start in Jan 11.

So far, I have found it both easy and difficult, mainly as a result of workload in the workplace, but also because I've not done any purely academic courses in about..... 35 years  .  

I agree that undertaking an academic programme while remote (In my case, 5,500 km distant) to the academic environment brings its own challenges, but I have found it easy to deal with both the academic staff and the support staff.

Only time will tell but, so far, I think the programme meets a need.

Ciao!


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## Kilted (9 Aug 2019)

I finished this program last year, has anyone ever tried to PLAR it into anything on the military side?


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