# Probe of soldier's suicide reveals hazing, harassment, fight club at Wpg armoury



## Eye In The Sky (17 Dec 2018)

Article Link

Brigadier-general reprimands 5 soldiers, removes 1 as investigation continues

A Winnipeg reservist who the military said died during training last November in fact stepped away from other soldiers on that exercise and killed himself — a year after telling his superiors he was being bullied and harassed.

CBC News obtained search warrant documents that were part of the investigation into the death of Cpl. Nolan Caribou, 26, on Nov. 18, 2017  at CFB Shilo. Caribou asked to be temporarily excused to deal with something personal that day. When he didn't come back, fellow soldiers went to look for him and found him dead.

"I don't know what was going through his mind or what other things he had going on in his life at the time, but it is clear to me that he was being harassed while he was in uniform and that leaders that should have taken action didn't, and that could have contributed to his death," Brig.-Gen. Trevor Cadieu, commander of the Canadian Armed Forces 3rd Canadian Division, said in an interview.

The documents also show "there was ongoing ritual hazing, organized fighting described as a 'fight club' and harassment occurring at the Minto Armouries in Winnipeg."

"I do believe that had leaders that had known about this, if they had taken more decisive action that it is possible there would have been a different outcome," Cadieu said.

When he learned about Caribou's death, he called a board of inquiry. It started in January and interviewed 40 witnesses. That investigation was complete by early June.

No charges have been laid, but Cadieu, the commander in charge of about 10,000 soldiers, reservists and civilian members of the army in Western Canada, travelled from Edmonton to Winnipeg several times this past year, to make changes to the leadership at Minto.

"I have relieved an individual from the performance of his military duties based on anecdotal evidence that I've heard. … It's given me enough concern that I do not want that individual around any of my other soldiers," said Cadieu.

Cadieu said he has reprimanded five soldiers and is waiting for the findings of a military police investigation before deciding whether to permanently remove any members from the Armed Forces.

"They weren't properly supervising unit training activities. They weren't present and shared in hardships. They weren't in the messes where alcohol was being consumed and as they forfeited that space It allowed a small handful of more sinister individuals to have greater influence," said Cadieu.

"That's what allowed this harassment to take place. And then when leaders — empowered leaders — learned about this harassment I felt that they did not take decisive enough action to properly understand what was going on and then to actually terminate that behaviour."

A board of inquiry revealed Caribou died by suicide, a month after graduating with a bachelor of arts in sociology from the University of Winnipeg. It also found he hadn't been paid at the rank he should have been for several months, and this could have worsened his financial situation.

It also concluded that a year before taking his life, Caribou had reported being harassed by fellow soldiers at Minto Armoury but the military didn't do much to stop it.

"We expect all of our leaders to take responsibility for their soldiers and to be accountable, that when things aren't going right, that they intervene immediately to stop harmful behaviour. In this case we've received indications that that hadn't happened," Cadieu said.

Caribou was an infantryman with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles for five years, and had been serving as a reservist at Minto Armoury in Winnipeg. He was never deployed overseas.

His family has asked for privacy but at the time of his death they released a statement. It said, "Being in the military was one way for Nolan to contribute — a way for him to seek resolution to address the challenge of society's inability to be peaceful, not just for himself but for everyone."

The family also said Caribou "was very determined despite challenges that he encountered while in the military, and he did so with integrity. Nolan did not allow limited resources to discourage him from following through with his commitments. His focus enabled him to facilitate available resources when required. He was very focused on his job as an infantryman, and Nolan took great pride in being able to do so."

Caribou's social media shows he loved music, and he occasionally posted videos of himself singing.

In February, Cadieu contacted the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service to tell them what he had learned in hopes they would launch an independent investigation into Caribou's death. They did, and during that probe the CFNIS uncovered allegations the harassment at Minto Armoury went beyond Caribou and had included other soldiers in the junior ranks mess.

The military police subsequently launched a second investigation to further probe the allegations.

"We have a soldier in this division that is dead. His family is mourning. They will always be mourning, and to know that there are military related service factors that could have contributed to that soldier's death — I can't consider anything more serious," said Cadieu.

Winnipeg Mayor Brian Bowman offered his condolences to the family. So did Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, and James Bezan, a Manitoba Conservative MP.

"Anytime there's a death of any Canadian Armed Forces member it hits very hard," Sajjan said.

Bezan said, "The loss of Cpl. Nolan Caribou is a large blow for the Royal Winnipeg Rifles. … He'll be missed at the armoury, at the parade hall and in the lives of the men and women he served with."

At the time of Caribou's death, the military said the soldier died during a training exercise. It has not publicly acknowledged the suicide until now.

*Soldier told Caribou to kill himself
*
In October, military police got a search warrant for a soldier's phone to look for evidence of a fight. In a sworn affidavit presented to a judge, police detailed some of the revelations.  

Police said they spoke to a soldier who recalled an incident about a week before Caribou's death in which a reservist posted a message on Caribou's social media to the effect of "kill yourself." Police said that soldier later bragged about it to other reservists at the armoury, but removed the post after Caribou's suicide.

Another reservist told police there were organized fights going on like in the movie Fight Club. "Officers would ask about the outcome and status of fights between soldiers, but then 'played dumb' when the matter was brought to the attention of the military police," a soldier's affidavit said.

One soldier told police he was leaving the military largely because of "the harassment and assaults he had witnessed." He detailed one incident where "a master corporal had instructed a group of eight to 10 subordinates to harass a private with the goal of making his life at the unit so unbearable that he would leave the military."

*Inquests should be mandatory, lawyer says*

"It's a rare occasion where the military admits in fact there were mistakes, [and] admits a corrective step must be taken," said Michel Drapeau, a military lawyer and Ottawa law professor.

Drapeau said Cadieu's admissions are a good start, but if society wants to see an end to soldier suicides, it can't be left to the military to figure out.

"You have to have a coroner inquest, a public coroner inquest," said Drapeau.

In Manitoba, a coroner's inquest is called by the chief medical examiner and is mandatory in cases where a person died in police custody or correctional facility, if the death was a result of a violent act or negligence, or if the cause is unknown or unexplained. The purpose of the inquest is to determine the circumstances surrounding the death and what, if anything, could have been done to prevent it.

Drapeau said the military holds a board of inquiry to look into non-combat deaths, but unlike inquests, the proceedings are not public and the family of the dead soldier does not have standing.

"We want more than that. We want to make sure that this loss is in fact having consequences and is … leaving a legacy behind. They're trying to change the channel, trying to learn from it and to do this you have to have a coroner inquest," said Drapeau.

"The military are good at conducting military missions, military tasks. There's nothing under their DNA that makes them particularly efficient at investigating themselves."

Drapeau said no other organization, not doctors, lawyers or even the RCMP can investigate itself.

Manitoba Justice Minister Cliff Cullen said in a statement, "While the corporal's death is a tragic reminder that everyone deserves to be treated with kindness, care and respect, it would need to be investigated federally, not through a provincial inquest, as any recommendations arising from one must relate to provincial laws, policies, and programs."

*Suicide prevention plan*

According to the armed forces, 14 soldiers have died by suicide this year and 89 since 2014.

Each case is looked into by the CFNIS, or local police if the death occurred outside the military's jurisdiction.

"The military has an extensive mental illness awareness and suicide prevention program consisting of clinical and non-clinical interventions by generalist and specialist clinicians, mental health education, and suicide awareness information," according to the federal government's website.

It says great efforts are made to identify people at risk for mental health problems and to provide them with the assistance that they require. But it's not always possible to identify those individuals.

"It doesn't mean anything unless empowered leaders are actually setting an example that we are destigmatizing mental health issues, and so we recognize that," said Cadieu. "And so that's why we're trying to embrace this mindset of readiness and resilience and growth in 3rd Canadian Division as well."


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## AbdullahD (17 Dec 2018)

May he RIP.

Bullying is a very real, very dangerous issue. Now whether it should be solely blamed for his death or not, is another factor. But bullying is a tough one to deal with.

Regardless may he RIP.

Abdullah


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## Remius (17 Dec 2018)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> May he RIP.
> 
> Bullying is a very real, very dangerous issue. Now whether it should be solely blamed for his death or not, is another factor. But bullying is a tough one to deal with.
> 
> ...



The next level of danger is when leaders let it become institutionalised.  I hope the system hammers them for it.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Dec 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I hope the system hammers them for it.



Including jail time.




> "Officers would ask about the outcome and status of fights between soldiers, but then 'played dumb' when the matter was brought to the attention of the military police," a soldier's affidavit said.


Is lying to the police grounds for losing their commission?


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## Cloud Cover (17 Dec 2018)

Wtf, over?  Never mind the officers, the Snr. NCO’s should have been poppin’ purple smoke and taking names.


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## RocketRichard (17 Dec 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Including jail time.
> 
> Is lying to the police grounds for losing their commission?


Totally unsat. Officers should be punished for sure. Difficult to lose your commission though. Last one I’ve heard of was the former Col R Williams who had his commission  revoked by the Governor General. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RCDtpr (17 Dec 2018)

Devils advocate.......none of us here know what information has been gleaned from this investigation.

It’s easy to say the officers should be in jail etc.....but we don’t know what, if any, their involvement was.

I can only assume it was the CO who was relieved of command....but as for other officers, we don’t know who or who didn’t really know what was up.  

It wouldn’t be overly difficult for a member who doesn’t like Capt Bloggins to say “oh ya he knew about it and did nothing.”

I’m not saying the officers are innocent......I’m just saying it’s a bit early for the internet lynching that already seems to be getting started in this thread.


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## mariomike (18 Dec 2018)

RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> Difficult to lose your commission though.



See also,

revocation of commission  



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Unless things have changed since my service, there is no authority to compulsorily strip an officer of his commission and retain him in the service (remove the commission and he gets booted out).  This also begs the question.  If he is incompetent as an officer (and doesn't want to be an OR), why would anyone want to retain him in the CF?


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## devil39 (18 Dec 2018)

Had a situation when I was RSS.  MCpl instructor on a recruit course was harassing  recruits having them walk around with a toilet bowl ring around their neck if they fucked up.   

I had him charged after an investigation.   I believe it was the first charge they'd had in a very long time (a decade?).   

Problem solved.  No time for that bullshit.


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## OldSolduer (18 Dec 2018)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Wtf, over?  Never mind the officers, the Snr. NCO’s should have been poppin’ purple smoke and taking names.



Ok I was the RSM of this unit until Sep 2016.  Once a month at dismissal I’d inform the soldiers at all rank levels my door was open to listen to problems, personal or professional. Nothing was brought up about hazing or fight clubs. It’s easy to sit from afar and judge.


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## Jarnhamar (18 Dec 2018)

RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> Totally unsat. Officers should be punished for sure. Difficult to lose your commission though. Last one I’ve heard of was the former Col R Williams who had his commission  revoked by the Governor General.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Fair enough, knee jerk reaction by me. If officers (better yet let's say any leadership) are guilty of serious accusations  ie knew about the harassment and didn't address it/turned a blind eye maybe lean on the more serious side of punishments.  But I'd also thrown in any peers that didn't step in as well. Corporals are NCOs.


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## dapaterson (18 Dec 2018)

Global has further information posted, including a copy of the press release from the Army:
https://globalnews.ca/news/4771106/armed-forces-confirms-shilo-reservist-who-died-by-suicide-was-bullied/



> Actions taken
> 
> Leadership failures were addressed through remedial action against five members, which includes the removal of one individual from a senior command position and the relief of another leader from the performance of military duties pending the results of the CFNIS investigation. Strong leadership has been established in the individual units, with the appointment of a full time command team and hand-selected Regular Force Cadre;
> 
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (18 Dec 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Ok I was the RSM of this unit until Sep 2016.  Once a month at dismissal I’d inform the soldiers at all rank levels my door was open to listen to problems, personal or professional. Nothing was brought up about hazing or fight clubs. It’s easy to sit from afar and judge.



I agree. 

The whole issue of self-harming in the CAF, which was completely absent from leadership considerations even as recently as 10 years ago, is a daily concern now and is a complete mystery from a variety of angles, especially when there seems to be little you can do to prevent or stop it. For example, before, Regimental functions used to be a chance to get together and share some good fellowship. Now, units need to seriously consider what surveillance program needs to be in place to quickly identify, assess and intervene with respect to potential self-harming activity. 

I have been a member of units that have experienced several attempted and/or 'completed' suicides, the majority young guys (mostly with no tours) and under 3 years in, and in each case it was something that no one saw coming. Before about the mid-2000s, the only funerals we had were for the 'old and bold', or the rare and sad case of someone KIA. Since then, it seems that there have been constant funerals for young people who, mostly, have only been soldiers for a short time, and who have taken their own lives for some - usually unknown - reason. 

It's easy to tear yourself apart about it as a senior leader and is a heavy burden, mostly, for the NCOs who are our youngest leaders with the greatest responsibilities for direct soldier care. It's even easier to look in from afar - especially before the results of any formal inquiry are made known -  and assume that there are deep leadership issues when, in fact, the leaders themselves sometimes are powerless too. 

Of course, this is also part of the tragedy surrounding such phenomena.


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## Humphrey Bogart (18 Dec 2018)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I agree.
> 
> The whole issue of self-harming in the CAF, which was completely absent from leadership considerations even as recently as 10 years ago, is a daily concern now and is a complete mystery from a variety of angles, especially when there seems to be little you can do to prevent or stop it. For example, before, Regimental functions used to be a chance to get together and share some good fellowship. Now, units need to seriously consider what surveillance program needs to be in place to quickly identify, assess and intervene with respect to potential self-harming activity.
> 
> ...



This organization has been in a perpetual state of self-deprecation for the past five years or so.  Basically since the War in Afghanistan ended and Operation HONOUR became the soupe du jour.  

Some self-deprecation is healthy, ours is not though.  Suicide Contagion is a real thing and our organization has a problem.  We have large groups of people that sit around self-loathing all day.  It's sad.


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## Kat Stevens (18 Dec 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Fair enough, knee jerk reaction by me. If officers (better yet let's say any leadership) are guilty of serious accusations  ie knew about the harassment and didn't address it/turned a blind eye maybe lean on the more serious side of punishments.  But I'd also thrown in any peers that didn't step in as well. Corporals are NCOs.



This always boiled my piss. Even when I was still in back in the dark ages, a Cpl had no authority in the unit. Nobody above you backed any decisions because you were "just a corporal", but when something went sideways it was "but you're a corporal". Pte/Sprs had no respect because they were told they didn't have to, and saw a Cpl as an overpaid Pte.  If you want Cpls to step up, give them the authority to step up. This in no way negates the tragedy of absolutely nobody stepping in to put a stop to this fratboy bullshit. RIP to the young troop.


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## Remius (18 Dec 2018)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> This always boiled my piss. Even when I was still in back in the dark ages, a Cpl had no authority in the unit. Nobody above you backed any decisions because you were "just a corporal", but when something went sideways it was "but you're a corporal". Pte/Sprs had no respect because they were told they didn't have to, and saw a Cpl as an overpaid Pte.  If you want Cpls to step up, give them the authority to step up. This in no way negates the tragedy of absolutely nobody stepping in to put a stop to this fratboy bullshit. RIP to the young troop.



Depends on the unit.  At mine plenty of Cpls are in leadership positions or have some of their leadership quals.  They are placed in an appropriate position (sect 2ic for example) and are treated as such.  If ptes and cpls in non appointed positions give them grief then it gets sorted.  No they are not treated the same as a fully qualified Sgt but they are not held to the same standard expected either.  However I have seen at times in my career what you mean.  

in the end though, you don't have to be in a position of authority either to step up and do the right thing and tell someone when things are going sideways or if someone is in distress.


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## Kat Stevens (18 Dec 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Depends on the unit.  At mine plenty of Cpls are in leadership positions or have some of their leadership quals.  They are placed in an appropriate position (sect 2ic for example) and are treated as such.  If ptes and cpls in non appointed positions give them grief then it gets sorted.  No they are not treated the same as a fully qualified Sgt but they are not held to the same standard expected either.  However I have seen at times in my career what you mean.
> 
> in the end though, you don't have to be in a position of authority either to step up and do the right thing and tell someone when things are going sideways or if someone is in distress.



Just to be clear, I was a section commander at least three times as a Cpl.  The problem was when it came to higher backing my decisions.  I was not permitted to give a downright insubordinate, bordering on mutinous, Spr extra duties, let alone ask for a charge.  I had to sit with this toxic little tick turd and the WO to "resolve our problems" because, at the end of the day, I was "Just a Corporal".  If I had a dollar for every time I heard those words, retired life would be quite a bit rosier than it currently is.

This is however diverting from the original topic, and I apologize for that.


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## BeyondTheNow (18 Dec 2018)

Despite avenues/policies/people/whathaveyou put in place to help, there's still significant fear of reprisal from fellow colleagues (either directly or passive-aggressively) for reporting an individual and it worsens depending on the rank (especially if the complainant is of lower rank), trade and popularity of said person/persons being reported. This greatly affects whether someone decides to say anything. This may not be how it *should* be, but the reality is that it *is.* There are still instances of pers 'circling the wagon' when one comes under fire (even if for legitimate reasons), there's still instances of gang-mentality when one person is being singled out. I have personally been aware and/or have witnessed this more than once. And as loosely touched on in a past post, I've also been the victim.

He obviously felt like he had no one to turn to at work (if the workplace was the direct cause, and even if it wasn't there's no way that it wasn't a contributing factor—at least according to the information available to the public), and I can sympathize.


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## Jarnhamar (18 Dec 2018)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> This always boiled my piss.



Gross lol
But ya you're 100% right. We're really good (bad) at making cpls responsible when it's convenient but treat them like privates otherwise.

Anytime a pte at my unit is promoted to cpl I take them aside, inform them they're NCOs now and they need to act and carry themselves like an NCO even if the unit doesn't.


BTN I understand what you're saying about fear of reprisal. Maybe I'm arm chair quarterbacking it but I think troops or jncos witnessing it, if they didn't want to confront it themselves and didn't trust the chain of command, could have spoken with military police, jag maybe, all those 1-800 numbers on the posters plastered everywhere, army.ca, lots of options.


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## AbdullahD (18 Dec 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Gross lol
> But ya you're 100% right. We're really good (bad) at making cpls responsible when it's convenient but treat them like privates otherwise.
> 
> Anytime a pte at my unit is promoted to cpl I take them aside, inform them they're NCOs now and they need to act and carry themselves like an NCO even if the unit doesn't.
> ...



Sometimes an issue is being seen as a coward, so a lot do not report for that reason. Maybe the "man up" or "confront him" attitude is or was prevalent enough that people were afraid of looking like a coward after they reported it. Even if it is or was just in their own mind, it could have been part of the issue.

Our egos, pride what have you is our own worst enemy at times.

Abdullah


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## FormerHorseGuard (19 Dec 2018)

sitting back and out of service for over 20 years but reading the news story and only knowing what I read. so this is just my opinion, not that it matters but, I am entitled to it.

I feel bad a soldier lost his life,  I know what is like to be bullied by fellow soldiers. 

I feel that the biggest failure here was the command staff and the chain of command 

if an officer knew about "fight club" and did nothing but ask about the out come, that officer should be removed from any sort of position and sent for retraining or pushed out the door and told he or she is fired.

former RSM saying office door always open, sounds great but hard to knock on door and walk in and spill it. the bullies always find out.

I was corporal, and know what it is like to be one, have a position but no authority  to do anything. still no excuse not to step up in a case like this.

I think the CO and the RSM  failed, if a Jr officer knows something , they should know , after all they are training the Jr officers to be leaders.
same goes for SNR NCOs they shoukd of done something to stop it.
I think more will come out in the wash of this tragedy and I hope some lessons learned, and applied in the future.


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## dapaterson (25 Nov 2019)

The family of the late MCpl Caribou have launched a suit against the federal government, alleging negligence and discrimination.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/nolan-caribou-family-lawsuit-1.5368027


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## OldSolduer (25 Nov 2019)

It would be nice to know who the CWO and Sergeant were.


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## observor 69 (25 Nov 2019)

I know of a situation similar to this one. I later found out that the Snr. NCO's in the chain of command said that the parties involved should have just "worked it out."
The victim of the bullying was pushed to the point of phycological illness due to the stress.
How could similar situations be better handled?


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> I know of a situation similar to this one. I later found out that the Snr. NCO's in the chain of command said that the parties involved should have just "worked it out."
> The victim of the bullying was pushed to the point of phycological illness due to the stress.
> How could similar situations be better handled?



For want of a better term, some good old 'Managing by Walking Around'. 

When senior leaders spend all their time making PowerPoint slides, versus engaging with the soldiers, things tend to go sideways in one way or another....


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## FJAG (25 Nov 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> For want of a better term, some good old 'Managing by Walking Around'.
> 
> When senior leaders spend all their time making PowerPoint slides, versus engaging with the soldiers, things tend to go sideways in one way or another....



Sadly, "Managing by walking around" was not a technique taught to me as a junior officer in the 70s and one I never observed happening around me during my years in the regular force. I only encountered the term just before leaving the regular force in 81 but then applied it when I was company commander of HQ company at Dundurn during the annual trade school there where my CSM and I randomly walked around the various platoons and sections while they were doing their jobs. We solved the vast majority of issues right there on the spot.

I liked the process so much that when I became a District Legal Advisor, I adopted a "legal services by walking around" process whereby every week on parade nights, I visited the Adjt and RSM of a different unit or two just for coffee and a chat. Same thing. Issues were solved before needing to be committed to paper or a phone call. Sometimes problems were solved that the unit hadn't even recognized as a problem.

IMHO, education in "MBWA" should be part of every officer's training and every unit should ensure officers have sufficient time available to practice it regularly.

 :cheers:


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## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I visited the Adjt and RSM of a different unit or two just for *coffee and a chat*.



 :nod:

The more senior we get in rank, the more important are these two tools in our leadership toolboxes.


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## Navy_Pete (26 Nov 2019)

That's one thing that really gets lost in the shuffle with the various matrixed projects working in different locations, and the freeze on traveling. A huge amount of things get sorted out over coffee, and not at the actual meetings, so there are some things you just can't do via teleconf.


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## CountDC (27 Nov 2019)

How many CWO does the unit have?  I have only ever seen one at the reserve units and that would be the RSM.

eligible for promotion in Aug 2015.  He joined in 2012 and just promoted to Pte(T).  From that I lean towards he had just completed his trade training and expected to be promoted immediately to Cpl.  Although this does happen a lot it is not a mandatory thing. There is the CoC recommendation to promote or not promote.  Some units (most likely very few) that will require a period of observation as a trained pte prior to promote to Cpl.  Last reserve location I worked the promotion policy stated that a period of observation to confirm functionality was mandatory.  Was that checked for?  

Vandalized Locker - A report to his superiors would not generate anything to be put in his file (assume they are referring to his pers file).  That should be in the harassment file that should have been created usually by the Chief HRA and/or Adjt.  I think pictures should have been taken and then the locker cleaned up.  Do have to wonder why it took so long.

Summer job as "camp leader" ?  What is that and how did they determine he was well qualified for it?  Is that their assumption or do they have an actual assessment from the hiring agents stating it.  Unfortunately often mbrs don't receive responses to positions they apply for.  Look at REO's and more often now they are stating only suitable candidates will be notified.  

In the end no excuse for a harassment to be ignored if reported and observed which looks like that was the case by the action taken.  Be interesting to see the information that comes out as the case progresses and hopefully get answers to questions.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Nov 2019)

CountDC said:
			
		

> How many CWO does the unit have?  I have only ever seen one at the reserve units and that would be the RSM.
> 
> eligible for promotion in Aug 2015.  He joined in 2012 and just promoted to Pte(T).  From that I lean towards he had just completed his trade training and expected to be promoted immediately to Cpl.  Although this does happen a lot it is not a mandatory thing. There is the CoC recommendation to promote or not promote.  Some units (most likely very few) that will require a period of observation as a trained pte prior to promote to Cpl.  Last reserve location I worked the promotion policy stated that a period of observation to confirm functionality was mandatory.  Was that checked for?
> 
> ...



I have no knowledge of this particular situation, but one big issue I've always had is that the realities of Class A service mean that leaders can go for weeks without laying eyes on, or speaking to, some of their troops. Not everyone can make it to every parade night and training event, all the time. Many don't communicate by email or social media. Some are loners and don't connect with their peers.

This makes the informal information hotline, or 'jungle telegraph, even more important to communicate issues as and when they occur. 

It breaks down fully when the victims can't, or don't, parade, engage or otherwise communicate issues for various reasons.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Nov 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Sadly, "Managing by walking around" was not a technique taught to me as a junior officer in the 70s and one I never observed happening around me during my years in the regular force. I only encountered the term just before leaving the regular force in 81 but then applied it when I was company commander of HQ company at Dundurn during the annual trade school there where my CSM and I randomly walked around the various platoons and sections while they were doing their jobs. We solved the vast majority of issues right there on the spot.




I had exactly the reverse experience as a soldier, NCO and officer in the 1960s. _*Management by wandering about*_ was almost the norm ... we expected to see the CO and OCs almost everywhere and anywhere ~ sometimes just looking, more often than not stopping, asking questions, maybe just chatting. Senior NCOs were busy doing both administration and planning. My memory says that colonels expected to see subalterns in coveralls, inspecting vehicles and equipment ~ understanding how weapons and APCs actually worked, for example. When the infantry became mechanized some units adopted the RCAC habit of "stables parade." That works, too.

_My sense_, no proof, just bar chat at reunions and so on, is that modern COs are overloaded with _administrivia_ from too many HQs ~ stuff that, in my days in command, late 1970s and early '80s, would never have been allowed to leave Mobile Comand HQ.

"Fight clubs' have been around for a looooong time ... they were fairly open in the 1960s, every unit had a boxing team until about 1966 or '67 and there were active sub-unit programmes that aimed to "foster" fighting spirit and produce regimental level boxers. We also had unarmed combat programmes that often got pretty aggressive. This was, usually, all overseen by Physical Training Instructors; sometimes the unit MO didn't approve, sometimes he did. The thing was that the institutional Arny, from the top down, "liked" rough, tough physical activity. There was a lot of angst when (mid to late '60s) boxing was done away with. Some people thought that was a serious mistake. There had, in my experience, always been some (maybe too much) tolerance of "rough and tumble," including settling disputes with fists.

Just some personal observations ...


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## LittleBlackDevil (6 Dec 2019)

I remember reading about this when it first happened, then sort of lost track of it ... very sad and disconcerting to read about this. Especially so since it involved my old regiment.

I was an officer with the R Wpg Rif in the late 90s into the early 2000s. I had no inkling of anything like this going on when I was there, but I can't say that doesn't mean it wasn't happening. I'll admit, coming out of my phase training I had absolutely zero clue about leading/managing when in garrison. I was taught absolutely nothing about that in Gagetown, we were only taught how to command in the field. I could command a platoon in the field competently but looking back I was not a leader at the armouries. 

Aside from doing some power point presentations, the only contact I had with my troops was when I interviewed everyone in the platoon when I first was assigned. Otherwise I just let my platoon 2IC run the show. I make no excuses for this -- it's on me that I didn't ask questions or take more initiative rather than sitting around thinking I didn't know what I was doing. At 19/20 I was probably also too young and stupid for the job. 

Not sure if this is still the case with the unit and infantry officer training.

Anyway, I found the conversation about "Management by wandering around" informative. It definitely didn't happen by any of the officers as far as I can recall when I was with the Rifles. I was a rifleman for about six months before I was made an OCDT and I don't remember ever encountering an officer during that time period.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Dec 2019)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I remember reading about this when it first happened, then sort of lost track of it ... very sad and disconcerting to read about this. Especially so since it involved my old regiment.
> 
> I was an officer with the R Wpg Rif in the late 90s into the early 2000s. I had no inkling of anything like this going on when I was there, but I can't say that doesn't mean it wasn't happening. I'll admit, coming out of my phase training I had absolutely zero clue about leading/managing when in garrison. I was taught absolutely nothing about that in Gagetown, we were only taught how to command in the field. I could command a platoon in the field competently but looking back I was not a leader at the armouries.
> 
> ...



A great observation.... and well done for leading those interviews, not many do.

Kip Kirby made the famous observation that, in the Canadian Army, every Officer carries a Sergeant Major's pace stick in their knapsack. I believe that we are under the spell of the 'cult of the Warrant Officer.' 

It goes like this: all Officers are 'stupid' (the more junior they are the dumber they are) and need to do what their much smarter and more experienced Warrant Officers tell them to do while staying out of the way, not sticking their noses in, and not asking dumb questions.

This cult is reinforced during Phase training where most of the Officer training is, ironically, not conducted by Officers. Most of the time, the Warrant Officers who conduct this training make sure that the OCdts know they are 'lower than whale sh*t', as one of my platoon staff at Gagetown reminded us regularly with great relish. As a result, Officers aren't really trained to deal with garrison based personnel issues because, as you note, that's all supposed to be handled by the Warrant Officers. Unchecked, this paradigm can result in a lack of objective command and control activity that can reveal and squash the usual range of bullying and harassment that might occur when there are 'bad apples' in the mix. There is no 'fault finding' to be done here, it's just the way we have evolved. 

I am guilty of a variety of massive and unfair generalizations here, of course, but it's a prevailing culture that's hard to break out of. Managing by 'wandering around' (MBWA) is one way to cut through those bonds of culture.

*The Effectiveness of Management-By-Walking-Around: A Randomized Field Study*
Research has found that quality improvement programs that solicit frontline workers’ ideas, such as
MBWA, can have a beneficial impact on organizational outcomes (Dow et al. 1999, Powell 1995).
MBWA relies on managers to make frequent, learning-oriented visits to their organization’s
frontlines to observe work and solicit employees’ opinions (Packard 1995). Hewlett-Packard, the
company in which MBWA originated, attributed its success using MBWA to good listening skills,
willing participation, a belief that every job is important and every employee is trustworthy, and a
culture where employees felt comfortable raising concerns (Packard 1995). MBWA is similar to the
Toyota Production System’s “gemba walks” (Mann 2009, Toussaint et al. 2010, Womack 2011). In a
gemba walk, managers go to the location where work is performed, observe the process, and to talk
with the employees (Mann 2009). The purpose is to see problems in context, which aids problem
solution (Mann 2009, Toussaint et al. 2010, Womack 2011).

http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/12-113_9a2bc5e8-2f70-4288-bb88-aeb2de49e955.pdf


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## Remius (6 Dec 2019)

This sort of thing hit me a couple of years ago. 

I noticed one of the platoons not doing anything an milling about at the beginning of the training night.  I couldn't find the PL WO so I asked the Platoon commander what his troops were supposed to be doing and his answer was "I'm not sure, my Platoon WO hasn't arrived yet"  

We had a brief conversation about who is actually supposed to be leading...


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Dec 2019)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Anyway, I found the conversation about "Management by wandering around" informative. It definitely didn't happen by any of the officers as far as I can recall when I was with the Rifles. I was a rifleman for about six months before I was made an OCDT and I don't remember ever encountering an officer during that time period.




Individual techniques may vary resulting in different outcomes.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Dec 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> This sort of thing hit me a couple of years ago.
> 
> I noticed one of the platoons not doing anything an milling about at the beginning of the training night.  I couldn't find the PL WO so I asked the Platoon commander what his troops were supposed to be doing and his answer was "I'm not sure, my Platoon WO hasn't arrived yet"
> 
> We had a brief conversation about who is actually supposed to be leading...



Nice one!  :rofl:


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## Kat Stevens (6 Dec 2019)

I found, watching from the fences as a lowly spr/cpl in the 80s & 90s, that there was a huge mistrust of NCOs from the officer corps. This undoubtedly came from the training system that, as noted above, was all conducted by Non Commissioned ranks. Particularly in the 80s, we never saw an officer except on parade. Hell, they even did PT by themselves, of course, they also got to eat off Royal Doulton place settings in the field.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Dec 2019)

Target Up said:
			
		

> I found, watching from the fences as a lowly spr/cpl in the 80s & 90s, that there was a huge mistrust of NCOs from the officer corps. This undoubtedly came from the training system that, as noted above, was all conducted by Non Commissioned ranks. Particularly in the 80s, we never saw an officer except on parade. Hell, they even did PT by themselves, of course, they also got to eat off Royal Doulton place settings in the field.



OK, that's just weird. Especially for Canadians....


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## FJAG (6 Dec 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> .... I believe that we are under the spell of the 'cult of the Warrant Officer.'
> 
> It goes like this: all Officers are 'stupid' (the more junior they are the dumber they are) and need to do what their much smarter and more experienced Warrant Officers tell them to do while staying out of the way, not sticking their noses in, and not asking dumb questions.
> 
> ...



You're bang on with this. As an officer cadet in the artillery my instructors were one captain instructor-in-gunnery and a warrant and two sergeant assistant instructors-in-gunnery. Most of our instruction came from the NCOs. This is very good for learning all the technical aspects of the job but, like others experiences, ends up being short on teaching basic leadership. While our AIGs treated us more like officers and gentlemen rather than scum, the fact is one still gets the feeling as a junior officer that one is getting in the way of things when trying to assert oneself.

I noticed a particular problem in the late seventies/early eighties just before I left the Reg F. At that time we'd had a solid decade of downsizing. As a result we had a long-term freeze on recruiting and the vast majority of our gunners were bombardiers with over a decade or two of time in rank who had done the same training over and over and over again. In the mid seventies recruiting started up again and suddenly we found ourselves with hundreds of young gunners and dozens of young lieutenants all raring to go but in between them stood a group of older, long in the tooth, and, quite frankly, bored and tired Snr NCOs who were generally resistant to challenging or innovative training. That was tough to work through.

 :cheers:


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## Furniture (7 Dec 2019)

So the key take away is that SNCOs are the problem, and officers are helpless victims? 

Except that the entire system is designed, and run by officers. SNCOs exercise the authority granted them by their betters, so perhaps the officer corps should be looking inward before casting blame outward. 

The unfortunate situation that started this thread was a failure of leadership at all levels, from Cpls all the way to the CO. 

Also, even as a weather guy newly promoted to Cpl back in 2004 I knew about "MBWA". It's not some deep dark secret, it had been rather well articulated even down to the Cpl level by at least '04 when I put up my second hook.


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## FJAG (7 Dec 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> So the key take away is that SNCOs are the problem, and officers are helpless victims?
> ...



No. No. No. That's the wrong takeaway from this. Problems in leadership can and do happen at every level. Different circumstances have differing results.

In any military that creates it's officer corps primarily by way of recruitment from the street (either direct entry or RMC or West Point or Sandhurst) rather than from within the ranks, you will naturally have a separate career stream for NCOs and commissioned officers where, generally, the NCOs will have age and experience on their side while junior officers commanding their first troop or platoon have neither.

In the British tradition of militaries (and we still pretty much are one of those) Snr NCOs have always been the bridge between the ranks and the officer corps at least within the battalion level. We have always depended very heavily on the Snr NCOs, especially at the platoon level, to educate and support junior officers, in their ability to command troops. 

The point here is that such Snr NCOs have the dual responsibility of leading, training and protecting their troops while building the skills and confidence of their officers. Sometimes that system breaks down for any number of reasons: the officer is too stubborn (or stupid) to learn, the Snr NCO can't be bothered being an officer's baby-sitter or what have you. In the case I described above, the troops and junior officers were in their early twenties while the Snr NCOs were in their forties. Circumstances had created a significant age gap as a result of which the bridge between troops and officers wasn't working as it should.

I agree with you that the situation that started this thread was a failure at all levels. Unfortunately MBWA is negated by one of our systemic issues (especially in the reserves) where officers are all too often swamped in administrative matters that keep them in the office rather than out on the floor. That same division almost ensures that Snr NCOs have less and less time with their junior officers to help develop them properly. Also, typically for a reserve unit, such improper activities take place "after hours" or "off-site" where there is no supervision.

I also tend to agree with about MBWA at the Jnr NCO level. As a young gunner on my Jnr NCO course, I was certainly taught how to lead and closely supervise my subordinates because that was my main job. Quite frankly though, I didn't have to do much MBWA because basically the folks I looked after were usually within a few yards of me. I didn't get the same training at the officer cadet level. We did have training and exercises where we supervised others but those were usually our fellow cadets. We were taught very little about "garrison" leadership.

I sometimes wonder if some of these types of issues, as in the instant case, are really centered on the breakdown of the corporal rank. Back when I was a young gunner and bombardier, there was a distinct division amongst the junior ranks between the gunners on the one hand and lance bombardiers and bombardiers on the other.  Bombardiers were leaders who generally kept the more unruly junior ranks behaviour in check. Obviously today's bombardiers/corporals no longer fit that bill, and I sometimes wonder how much our master bombardiers/corporals in the reserves have taken up that leadership role when off the floor or not on exercise. Unfortunately I've been too long away from the coal face to know whether my suspicions have any basis in fact.

 :stirpot:


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## Jarnhamar (7 Dec 2019)

Young officers don't have time to command their platoons because they're too busy dealing with insessent admin and metric gathering from the coc and HQ.


Besides do reserves need to train for anything larger than company level?


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## daftandbarmy (7 Dec 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Young officers don't have time to command their platoons because they're too busy dealing with insessent admin and metric gathering from the coc and HQ.
> 
> 
> Besides do reserves need to train for anything larger than company level?



Nailed it x 2 IMHO  :nod:


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## Blackadder1916 (7 Dec 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Young officers don't have time to command their platoons because they're too busy dealing with insessent admin and metric gathering from the coc and HQ.
> 
> 
> Besides do reserves need to train for anything larger than company level?



Often that "incessant admin and metric gathering" are tasks assigned to young officers by their OC or Adjt as part of their development as officers.  Do you think that adjutants (the good ones anyway) magically appear all knowing.  Usually it's because in the past they have been given innumerable petty problems that they've had to research and provide a written response to a superior who harshly corrected their spelling, grammar and conclusions with gleeful application of the big red pencil.  At one time on those means it was similarly a common response to a poorly drafted post.  As an officer, it was part of my learning experience as well as how I provided necessary experience to young officers who worked for me.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Dec 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Often that "incessant admin and metric gathering" are tasks assigned to young officers by their OC or Adjt as part of their development as officers.  Do you think that adjutants (the good ones anyway) magically appear all knowing.  Usually it's because in the past they have been given innumerable petty problems that they've had to research and provide a written response to a superior who harshly corrected their spelling, grammar and conclusions with gleeful application of the big red pencil.  At one time on those means it was similarly a common response to a poorly drafted post.  As an officer, it was part of my learning experience as well as how I provided necessary experience to young officers who worked for me.



A great way to learn, of course, but one that has been largely replaced with 100 trivial emails per month (at least). 

One way I got my platoon commanders to connect more effectively with their troops was to have them meet me in my office monthly and walk me through each one on their strength. I’d check with the CSM afterwards to see if they knew their stuff, of course.

It also helped me get my head in the game for PERs, course and employment season etc.


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## Old Sweat (7 Dec 2019)

This has been a feature of Canadian (and probably all British-pattern) armies for a very long time, dating far back from when I first encountered it in the early sixties in Gagetown. Remember the old drinking ditty that went "Old King Cole was a merry, old soul, And a merry, old soul was Old King Cole". One verse went "He called for his pipe in the middle of the night, And he called for his subalterns three. We do all the work said the subalterns . . ."


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## Blackadder1916 (7 Dec 2019)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> This has been a feature of Canadian (and probably all British-pattern) armies for a very long time, dating far back from when I first encountered it in the early sixties in Gagetown. Remember the old drinking ditty that went "Old King Cole was a merry, old soul, And a merry, old soul was Old King Cole". One verse went "He called for his pipe in the middle of the night, And he called for his subalterns three. We do all the work said the subalterns . . ."



https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C2134977?image=1

or for the Gunner in you. . .  https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/o/oldkingcole.html


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## FJAG (7 Dec 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C2134977?image=1
> 
> or for the Gunner in you. . .  https://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/o/oldkingcole.html



Thanks for that. Lovely to see all the words for a song I sung dozens of times in my youth. To my recollection, the phrase was not "merry old soul" but rather "merry a--h--e" and the Captains said "We get all the s--t". But that may have been just a local version.  ;D

 :cheers:


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## Jarnhamar (7 Dec 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Often that "incessant admin and metric gathering" are tasks assigned to young officers by their OC or Adjt as part of their development as officers.  Do you think that adjutants (the good ones anyway) magically appear all knowing.  Usually it's because in the past they have been given innumerable petty problems that they've had to research and provide a written response to a superior who harshly corrected their spelling, grammar and conclusions with gleeful application of the big red pencil.  At one time on those means it was similarly a common response to a poorly drafted post.  As an officer, it was part of my learning experience as well as how I provided necessary experience to young officers who worked for me.



I could be mistaken but I'm guessing it's been a while since you've been a platoon commander or were in charge of developing them. 

I suggest that because I'm guessing you haven't seen the volume of email and admin they're bombarded with these days (or maybe you do). 

My platoon commander went on leave for a week and had over 400 emails (I'm not exaggerating). I was speechless. He had his out of office on and he was still getting emails demanding updates to previous emails. 

If that's how the CAF wants to develop platoon commanders into adjt's don't get upset when Sgts and WOs run the platoon in the commanders absence (and the Lt is seen more of a figure head).


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## Furniture (8 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> No. No. No. That's the wrong takeaway from this. Problems in leadership can and do happen at every level. Different circumstances have differing results.
> 
> In any military that creates it's officer corps primarily by way of recruitment from the street (either direct entry or RMC or West Point or Sandhurst) rather than from within the ranks, you will naturally have a separate career stream for NCOs and commissioned officers where, generally, the NCOs will have age and experience on their side while junior officers commanding their first troop or platoon have neither.
> 
> ...



Well said, I was perhaps a bit more harsh than was deserved. 

I tend to agree that the real issue in many cases is the failure of leadership at the most Jr. level. 

To expand on why I think this happens; I believe we have become too "risk adverse" as an organization. We don't let Cpls, and MCpls make mistakes, then learn from them. We know a Sgt//WO/Capt can handle the problem, so we use them, rather than letting the more Jr members learn through trial and error. This leads to lowered expectations of our Jr leaders, which means they live up to our lowered expectations. 

I'm as guilty as the next leader, I've done things my Cpl/MCpl should be doing just because I know I won't have to spend time correcting them...


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## LittleBlackDevil (8 Dec 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> So the key take away is that SNCOs are the problem, and officers are helpless victims?



That's not what I got from daftandbarmy's post, and I think FJAG's follow-up was good.

For my part, I tried to be clear that I wasn't trying to portray myself as a victim at all when speaking of my own inadequacies and the lack of garrison leadership training I received in Gagetown ... as I said *"I make no excuses for this -- it's on me that I didn't ask questions or take more initiative rather than sitting around thinking I didn't know what I was doing. At 19/20 I was probably also too young and stupid for the job."*


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## CountDC (9 Dec 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> I'm as guilty as the next leader, I've done things my Cpl/MCpl should be doing just because I know I won't have to spend time correcting them...



Shame on you.    :not-again:


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## Furniture (15 Dec 2019)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Shame on you.    :not-again:



If this is some deep troll, well played.

If it isn't, get over yourself. You are far more likely to be part of the problem than the solution. Shaming people for being human, and doing human things is counter productive. We should be encouraging people to admit to their failings,and then improving on them. 

Your sad attempt at making me feel bad is both weak and ineffective. In 30+ years you should heave learned how to read, and by extension lead senior people.


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## OldSolduer (15 Dec 2019)

Hind sight is always 20/20. 

And it’s very easy to judge people despite knowing nothing of the context of the situation. 

Just two thoughts on this.


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## brihard (15 Dec 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> If this is some deep troll, well played.
> 
> If it isn't, get over yourself. You are far more likely to be part of the problem than the solution. Shaming people for being human, and doing human things is counter productive. We should be encouraging people to admit to their failings,and then improving on them.
> 
> Your sad attempt at making me feel bad is both weak and ineffective. In 30+ years you should heave learned how to read, and by extension lead senior people.



I’m reasonably confident he was joking.


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## OldSolduer (15 Dec 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I’m reasonably confident he was joking.



As am I.


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## BeyondTheNow (15 Dec 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> If this is some deep troll, well played.
> 
> If it isn't, get over yourself. You are far more likely to be part of the problem than the solution. Shaming people for being human, and doing human things is counter productive. We should be encouraging people to admit to their failings,and then improving on them.
> 
> Your sad attempt at making me feel bad is both weak and ineffective. In 30+ years you should heave learned how to read, and by extension lead senior people.



As I’m sure you’re aware, intent and context can often be misunderstood when solely relying on the written word. I read his response as being tongue-in-cheek.

There have been many instances during my professional life where I’ve also done things myself rather than teaching and overseeing another for the simple fact it was easier and more expedient at the time. Sometimes there were other reasons combined as well, sometimes I simply wasn’t in the mood to babysit. And those were the times where I dismissed an opportunity to influence and lead due to my own shortcomings in that moment.  I’m pretty sure we’ve all done that at one time or another.


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