# ETO's



## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

Can anyone point me in the direction on where I can find directives on ETO's?  I'm specifically looking for guidelines on usage of days and whether or not you can be "forced" to use accumulated time off.

thanks


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## PMedMoe (1 Dec 2011)

I don't think ETO is considered actual "leave" (and I don't believe you'll find directives for it), but here's the link for the CF Leave Manual:  http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

Thanks for the link!  I know its not leave per say, just looking at a situation I'm in and would like to see if there is anything out there for direction. Is ETO even recognized anymore, or does it fall under "Special Leave"?

As an example..........I'm a day worker, Monday to Friday with weekends off, like most.  If I lost two weekends in Nov, I've earned 4 ETO's.  Is it written anywhere when I have to use these days?


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## aesop081 (1 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> Is it written anywhere when I have to use these days?



It is likely that your unit itself as a policy on this.


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

Yes thats the problem........we dont and trying to incorporate a Sqn out of Trenton's policy is getting lukewarm results....


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## MJP (1 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> If I lost two weekends in Nov, I've earned 4 ETO's.  Is it written anywhere when I have to use these days?



I need to work for your unit...I wish I had gotten a day off for every weekend day worked.  As CA said it is a unit policy.  In most of the units that I have belonged too CTO/ETO days were taken enmasse within the unit, usually after an exercise.  If I had troops that worked a weekend day or week evening for me I would usually give them the next feasible working day off.  Tracking and banking unofficial days is a pain in the butt and a nightmare of "individual" entitlement issues.


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## PMedMoe (1 Dec 2011)

ETO differs from unit to unit.  I know that years ago ( :-\) when I was a Tfc Tech in Greenwood, we kept a log of hours, once you got eight, it was a day off.  I used to use mine immediately to avoid the chance of losing them.


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## MJP (1 Dec 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I used to use mine immediately to avoid the chance of losing them.



I must say that besides excellent logic on your part, you must have had leadership that realized that you put in extra time and deserved that time off now.  Not banked in some magic penny jar for the future.


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## aesop081 (1 Dec 2011)

My last unit was very supportive when it came to making up time off......the unit's operations schedule on the other hand, was less accomodating. If i had taken every missed day off later, the unit would have had to shut down.

Sometimes we got them, sometimes we didn't. That's just the way it was.


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## PMedMoe (1 Dec 2011)

MJP said:
			
		

> you must have had leadership that realized that you put in extra time and deserved that time off now.  Not banked in some magic penny jar for the future.



Actually, yes we did.   :nod:


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## CountDC (1 Dec 2011)

No there is not an official policy on what you are asking because technically it does not exist.  Just because you work a weekend does not mean you earn 2 days "ETO" (does not exist).  As it goes - you are paid 24/7 and can be employed as such.  It is up to your boss to decide if they want to give you time off for those weekends unless the chain of command has issued a policy. Then of course your boss should be adhering to that.  Personally I think all units should have a policy stating the boss can give you the time off within the same month at their discretion.  Work load too high then no time off.

Have you tried the official route for this - submit a leave pass requesting 2 days short with a statement explaining the reason for the request? Short does exist so the CO can compensate members for what you are talking about if they want.


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

CountDC, thanks for the response.  Actually getting the ETO's is not an issue, its the seemingly weekly changes on when we can use said ETO's thats becoming an issue.  I do fully realize that we're paid 24/7 but  some of our days can be up to an 18 hour day and requires flying, yet we're not aircrew.


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## aesop081 (1 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> yet we're not aircrew.



So ? Most of my flying days were 18 hours long and i still missed most of my days off and rarely managed to get them back ?


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So ? Most of my flying days were 18 hours long and i still missed most of my days off and rarely managed to get them back ?



Ok.....AGAIN, the point is NOT getting time off.  Go read the thread again.....i'm asking for clarification on WHEN said ETO's can be used..............


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## McG (1 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> Can anyone point me in the direction on where I can find directives on ETO's?  I'm specifically looking for guidelines on usage of days and whether or not you can be "forced" to use accumulated time off.


There is no such thing as ETO.  However, there are mechanisms in the Leave Manual.  These mechanisms are at the discretion of the CO (so be thankfull when you get tem at all) and in some cases are very perscriptev as to timelines for a CO to authorize them. The mechanisms are:
[list type=decimal][*]when a member is away from home on duty for operations and training exercises, career courses or incremental taskings within or outside Canada, Special Leave (Relocation) may be granted at the discretion of the CO.  The leave manual is very perscriptive about when this leave may be taken in relation to the dates the member (you) would have been away.  You would not be entitled to this leave for coming into the office to work on a weekend.

[*]Alternately, Short Leave may be authorized to compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest.  Short is limited to a maximum of two days a month.[/list]
If you are getting ETO/CTO by anyother means or in greater quantities, then it is Special Leave (SECRET Under-the-Table) a.k.a Special Leave (Illegal).


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

Thanks a ton MCG!.......that's what I needed.


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## aesop081 (1 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> Ok.....AGAIN, the point is NOT getting time off.  Go read the thread again.....i'm asking for clarification on WHEN said ETO's can be used..............



I don't need to read the thread again, once was enough. I was just wondering what your "yet we're not aircrew" comment had to do with anything.


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## Strike (1 Dec 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I don't need to read the thread again, once was enough. I was just wondering what your "yet we're not aircrew" comment had to do with anything.



I think he was referring to the fact that he does not then get crew rest that aircrew are suposed to get prior to starting his next shift.


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## aesop081 (1 Dec 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> I think he was referring to the fact that he does not then get crew rest that aircrew are suposed to get prior to starting his next shift.



I'm sure he wants to fly with the crew who's been on min crew rest for 3 flights in a row. But then again, crew rests actualy exists and is spelled out in orders. "ETO" "CTO" "whatever" don't exist.


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm sure he wants to fly with the crew who's been on min crew rest for 3 flights in a row. But then again, crew rests actualy exists and is spelled out in orders. "ETO" "CTO" "whatever" don't exist.



I work the same hours as the crew does.....at times, maybe an hour or so more.  Sometimes, the crew are waiting for me/us on the bus as we finish up what needs to be done.

Im also looking at other Sqn's orders pertaining to this issue, which I stated in my 3rd post of this topic.  Im hoping that we can incorporate these order's into our unit.


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## captloadie (1 Dec 2011)

Let me guess. You are a tech crewman who is wondering why you are being told you have to use your CR (crew rest)days at a certain time, instead of banking them for another time. Your squadron is likely applying a policy that ensures there are enough people to man the lines of taskings. You can check with other Sqns (try 437), and you will likely find that most Sqns direct when you must take certain CR days. At least that was the way it was when I flew. Gone are the days (in most Sqns) when you could bank 14 CR days and take them for an extended holiday.


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## PMedMoe (1 Dec 2011)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Let me guess. You are a tech crewman



Profile check:  MP


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## captloadie (1 Dec 2011)

HMMM, interesting. I never asked the Air Marshalls MPs who flew with us how, or if, they were compensated for time off when they flew. 
Those who flew on the Herc at the time were considered aircrew (I believe), so the same time off/CR days applied, but that was only in theatre.


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Let me guess. You are a tech crewman who is wondering why you are being told you have to use your CR (crew rest)days at a certain time, instead of banking them for another time. Your squadron is likely applying a policy that ensures there are enough people to man the lines of taskings. You can check with other Sqns (try 437), and you will likely find that most Sqns direct when you must take certain CR days. At least that was the way it was when I flew. Gone are the days (in most Sqns) when you could bank 14 CR days and take them for an extended holiday.



Thats just it...........I, or I should say we, dont get crew rest.....so as an example, I arrive back in Canada on a Thursday at 6 pm after flying 14 plus hours (too many time zones to count and crossing the international date line) and I have to be into work on Fri, but the crew I worked with have CR.....

Im not asking for a seat in the senate.......just looking at options for making things fair without pissing anyone off.


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## GAP (1 Dec 2011)

I've kept out of this.....but I gotta ask.....just gotta......aren't you resting while the crew is flying?  ;D


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## MP 811 (1 Dec 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> I've kept out of this.....but I gotta ask.....just gotta......aren't you resting while the crew is flying?  ;D



LOL!!!!............thank you for bringing a little levity to this!......


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## Strike (2 Dec 2011)

JM, do you get any type of casual aircrew allowance?  I only ask because, if so, than you can use the argument that you are under 1 CAD flying orders until your full crew day, including crew rest, are complete.

Just trying to help by providing a different way of looking at things.


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## SupersonicMax (2 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> I work the same hours as the crew does.....at times, maybe an hour or so more.  Sometimes, the crew are waiting for me/us on the bus as we finish up what needs to be done.
> 
> Im also looking at other Sqn's orders pertaining to this issue, which I stated in my 3rd post of this topic.  Im hoping that we can incorporate these order's into our unit.



The reason the crew gets crew rest is so they can operate the aircraft in a safe manner.  If you are not part of the crew, you do not need crew rest.  I have spent a lot of time working more than the prescribed 12 hrs as a non-crew at the squadron.  Such is life.  (Getting to work at 3PM, for a 10PM launch, a 3AM recovery to a 8AM Ops Desk shift until 14PM, for a total of 23hrs straight at work.)


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## MP 811 (2 Dec 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> JM, do you get any type of casual aircrew allowance?  I only ask because, if so, than you can use the argument that you are under 1 CAD flying orders until your full crew day, including crew rest, are complete.
> 
> Just trying to help by providing a different way of looking at things.



Yes we do...thanks for pointing me in the right direction!


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## MP 811 (2 Dec 2011)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The reason the crew gets crew rest is so they can operate the aircraft in a safe manner.  If you are not part of the crew, you do not need crew rest.  I have spent a lot of time working more than the prescribed 12 hrs as a non-crew at the squadron.  Such is life.  (Getting to work at 3PM, for a 10PM launch, a 3AM recovery to a 8AM Ops Desk shift until 14PM, for a total of 23hrs straight at work.)




We are part of the crew during missions.  I thank everybody for pointing me in the direction I need to go to formulate something up that I can forward up the chain for consideration.  I have to say though, im a little disapointed in a few posts here that did nothing to contribute to the original question.

Mod's feel free to close this topic now.


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## aesop081 (2 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> We are part of the crew during missions.



Yes you are. That being said, the aircraft is not going to crash if you are tired and the relevant rules do not apply to you. You can remuster to an aircrew trade if it bothers you that much. Its all rainbows and butterflies here in green grass land.



> I have to say though, im a little disapointed



 :

We all have to live with some disapointment.


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## MJP (2 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> We are part of the crew during missions.  I thank everybody for pointing me in the direction I need to go to formulate something up that I can forward up the chain for consideration.  I have to say though, im a little disapointed in a few posts here that did nothing to contribute to the original question.
> 
> Mod's feel free to close this topic now.



Meh  Most people are disappointed when they don't hear what they want to hear.  If you had laid out the whole situation right from the beginning rather than have us play whack-a-mole to figure it out, maybe you wouldn't have had to hear "answers" you didn't like.  Maybe a look in the mirror is in order rather than being "disappointed" in some posts.


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## MP 811 (2 Dec 2011)

MJP said:
			
		

> Meh  Most people are disappointed when they don't hear what they want to hear.  If you had laid out the whole situation right from the beginning rather than have us play whack-a-mole to figure it out, maybe you wouldn't have had to hear "answers" you didn't like.  Maybe a look in the mirror is in order rather than being "disappointed" in some posts.



Actually, I did get what I wanted to get which was the whole purpose of the thread.  Many provided me with the "answers" I asked for hence why I asked for the topic to be closed.  It wasnt so much "answers" I didnt like....it was the throwing comments in with veiled "jabs" for lack of a better term that didnt need to be posted.

I asked a "to the point question", which was to guide me to anything in writing pertaining to directives on ETO's.  If someone didnt have something useful to add...i.e, administrative orders, or special leave, then why post?  What usefullness was served by throwing a "so what?.....I've flown 18 straight hours and got nothing" into this other than a little self gratifcation with a quick snide jab?

Anyways........thank you all who provided me with what I asked for originally.  Much appreciated!


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## MJP (2 Dec 2011)

just me... said:
			
		

> Actually, I did get what I wanted to get which was the whole purpose of the thread.  Many provided me with the "answers" I asked for hence why I asked for the topic to be closed.  It wasnt so much "answers" I didnt like....it was the throwing comments in with veiled "jabs" for lack of a better term that didnt need to be posted.
> 
> I asked a "to the point question", which was to guide me to anything in writing pertaining to directives on ETO's.  If someone didnt have something useful to add...i.e, administrative orders, or special leave, then why post?  What usefullness was served by throwing a "so what?.....I've flown 18 straight hours and got nothing" into this other than a little self gratifcation with a quick snide jab?
> 
> Anyways........thank you all who provided me with what I asked for originally.  Much appreciated!



I think you are missing the whole point.  If you had come one and said "hey can you bank ETOs and here is my situation blah blah blah".  You would have had a much more factual response with allot less "snide jabs"

Truth is this issue that comes up fairly regularly here on the boards, and therefore has been answered ad nausem for most situations.  We generally as a rule do not like to do other peoples leg work for them if the info is out there.   Yours I admit was intriguing once you laid it out.  But you took your sweet time giving enough details so that the collective wisdom here could give you a way forward.

Again I stand by my statement that part of the problem stands before you in the mirror each day.  If you had given timely, clear info then much hand wringing and angst would not have followed.

Anyway have a good few ETO days off 

edited for spelling


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## CountDC (2 Dec 2011)

good that you got your answer just me but I do have to agree with MJP that your initial question did not contain the details needed to answer what you actually wanted to know.  In fact it mixed two unrelated things (ETO and Accumulated) that really didn't correspond to what you were after which was Crew Rest.

Good luck in your plan.

I know the comment on resting was done as a funny(maybe   ) but it did remind me of something I read awhile back.  Something like If you are a passenger in a moving vehicle even if you sleep you will not get fully rested as your brain and body is constantly adjusting to the movement.


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