# Liberal's road ahead for the CF



## JasonH (22 Dec 2004)

Graham's Military Wish List 
Josh Pringle 
Wednesday, December 22, 2004 

Defence Minister Bill Graham has made his wish list for the upcoming federal budget. 

Graham wants the budget to lay out a five-year timetable to buy more military big-ticket items. 

He's looking for everything from new transport planes and helicopters to army trucks to navy destroyers. 

The long-awaited defence and foreign policy review, expected at the end of next month, will sketch out a new vision for the Canadian Forces. 

http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=2&nid=23036


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## scm77 (22 Dec 2004)

Here's an article from the Toronto Star that goes into more details.

Military shopping list growing
Graham wants 5-year plan to buy big-ticket items

Equipment needed to exercise role may cost billions

BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU

OTTAWAâ â€Defence Minister Bill Graham wants the upcoming federal budget to lay out a five-year timetable for the purchase of big-ticket military items, everything from new transport aircraft and helicopters to army trucks and possibly even destroyers.

Graham said people on the street want to see the federal government invest more in the military and that the message has caught on in Ottawa.

The wish list â â€ requested by the Prime Minister â â€ would spell out a "coherent" strategy for dealing with some of the military's most urgent priorities, Graham said yesterday.

"The Prime Minister himself ... has an enthusiastic recognition of what Canada can do and he recognizes that the military capacity has to be a big part of that. So I think we're well on the way," he said in an interview in his constituency â â€ Toronto Centre â â€ office on Bloor St. E.

The long-awaited defence and foreign policy review â â€ now expected at the end of January â â€ is expected to sketch out a new vision for the Canadian Forces and the kind of equipment needed to do the job.

But already Graham acknowledges the military needs a replacement for the aging Hercules transports, new trucks for the army and new helicopters to haul soldiers and equipment.

The military's 19 Hercules are more than 40 years old, its 2,769 army trucks are 22 years old and its four destroyers are 35 years old.

Graham conceded that the heavy schedule of overseas commitments has taken its toll on the military.

"The forces over the last few years have been stretched. We've had what they call a very heavy operational tempo. It's like driving a car too long without replacing the bearings. There are some bearings that need to be replaced," he said.

Graham said one of his key priorities will be "persuading the finance minister that we should have the resources in the budget to enable us to deliver on what we're promising in the defence review." The wish list could cost billions of dollars.

But during a visit to Edmonton and more recent chats with Toronto businessmen, the defence minister said he was struck by the demands of Canadians that the government step up its support of the military.

"It was unbelievable. Young people with kids, young women coming up to me and saying, `Mr. Graham, it's so important we support our troops,'" he said of his Edmonton visit.

As a minimum, Ottawa must boost the military spending by at least $800 million just to meet its promise of recruiting thousands more troops, he said.

"It's very clear that if the government is going to be able to support the 5,000 new troops, it's going to have to be more than that. But not in the first year. It's going to be over time. Everything is going to be over time," he said.

"I think what's needed here is for people to sense that there's been a change in direction, that's there's a commitment to invest in the military.

"Everyone realizes you can't get it done in one day. ... People want to say, `Hey, five years from now here's where we're going to be."

Graham will see the work of Canadian troops firsthand next month when he visits the 700-strong contingent in Kabul. Graham said he also wants to talk to local officials about Canada's plan to send a new force of up to 500 troops to serve as part of a provincial reconstruction team in Kandahar.

On the topic of missile defence, Graham said he doubted Canada would suffer reprisals if the Liberal government decides not to participate in the U.S.-led program. But he said Canada can't ignore the fact that the U.S. administration considers this a priority.

"I do strongly believe that in terms of creating an atmosphere in Washington in which the Americans say we've got an ally to the north whose willing to work with us on the defence of North America ... is a benefit to us," he said.

"It's very hard to evaluate that, it's very hard to evaluate the negative consequences of not participating would be. But I don't think we should neglect that. It's very hard to quantify.

"We should approach these negotiations positively and seek to get the best deal for Canada," he said.

Another topic expected in the defence review is safeguarding Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic, an area where Graham admits the military should be doing more.

"I believe the military should be making more investments up north to be a part of the (government's vision of the Arctic)," he said.

"What I envisage is an increased presence. Exactly what form that will take I don't know ... We could be more active."

Graham said he'd like to see the use of unmanned aerial drones to help keep watch over the landscape, boost the ranks of the Canadian Ranger patrols and have the military exercise more often in the region.

"For some reasonable amounts of money we could increase our resources in certain areas and be very effective," he said.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1103669413935&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes


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## ImanIdiot (22 Dec 2004)

Sounds good, but politics being what it is, I can't help but feel pessimistic. I'm sure the majority of you feel the same way. Hopefully, should these funds become available to the CF, they will be spent smartly.

I guess all we can do is Wait Out on this one.


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## canuck101 (22 Dec 2004)

We will have to wait and see.


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## Meridian (22 Dec 2004)

I liked the part about "persuading" the Finance Minister...

Preperation of a personal "out".

*Sigh* (but crosses fingers anyway)


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## Marauder (22 Dec 2004)

> "The forces over the last few years have been stretched. We've had what they call a very heavy operational tempo. It's like driving a car too long without replacing the bearings. There are some bearings that need to be replaced," he said.



The next time Bill wants to use a car metaphor, he should ask his chauffer for a better one. I don't remember ever replacing any "bearings" on my Sunfire. (Although I did change a tire in the middle of Bon Echo park in the pouring rain at o'dark stupid this summer while driving back to Pet from leave at home.)

And now kids, we know why they are called "limosine liberals". "rolleyes"


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## scm77 (22 Dec 2004)

> But already Graham acknowledges the military needs a replacement for the aging Hercules transports, new trucks for the army and *new helicopters to haul soldiers and equipment.*



Is he talking about the MHP again or something to either compliment or replace the Griffons?


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## Meridian (22 Dec 2004)

Thats the fun.. who knows?


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## Ex-Dragoon (22 Dec 2004)

New destroyers........ *Homer drool*


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## AmmoTech90 (22 Dec 2004)

scm77 said:
			
		

> The wish list â â€ requested by the Prime Minister â â€ would spell out a "coherent" strategy for dealing with some of the military's most urgent priorities, Graham said yesterday.



Be nice we could get current White Paper or national policy so DND could formulate a strategy to fulfil it.


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## canuck101 (22 Dec 2004)

New destroyers would be nice to get.


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## Bograt (22 Dec 2004)

Sniff, sniff. Do any of you smell that? Smells like pre-electioneering to me. Either that, or I'm having a stroke.


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## Scratch_043 (22 Dec 2004)

Marauder said:
			
		

> > "The forces over the last few years have been stretched. We've had what they call a very heavy operational tempo. It's like driving a car too long without replacing the bearings. There are some bearings that need to be replaced," he said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



actually, that reference is accurate, you DO need to replace bearings in the steering system after substantial use because they get worn, especially if your allignment is off.


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## Meridian (22 Dec 2004)

in any case, Im sure Graham didn't write his comments..   we'd have to take up our questions with his communications staff.


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## casca (22 Dec 2004)

All of the things would be nice, Ships, Helos  Hercs, and trucks. But do any of think the Liberals will come up with the money??? If you think they will I have some swamp land to sell you in Dundurn, Sask.


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## canuck101 (22 Dec 2004)

How much is the land is Sask going for. ;D


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## birdgunnnersrule (22 Dec 2004)

Sounds like the Mulroney years all over again.  It is ironic that the Butcher, Paul Martin, and the MND being the former outspoken foreign affairs minister, finally realize the damage that the Liberal government inflicted in the early 90's. Yes, I know the let down started with Johnny Diefenbaker, but old Liberal policies have tied the PM's hands on the world stage.  No Sudan, No Iraq, etc due to limited number of troops and equipment.  I think that we will get some of the kit over the next TEN years so that we can start exerting more influence on the international stage.  We don't need to focus on one place like Afghanistan, we also need to go to places such as Sudan.


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## Danjanou (22 Dec 2004)

canuck101 said:
			
		

> How much is the land is Sask going for. ;D



I hear its a good deal, it's ocean front 8)


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## Kirkhill (22 Dec 2004)

> Insert Quote
> Quote from: canuck101 on Today at 19:20:14
> How much is the land is Sask going for.
> 
> ...



I think you heard that wrong Danjanou.  It's an investment property.  David Suzuki says it will become ocean front if we don't act on Kyoto. ;D


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## canuck101 (22 Dec 2004)

Waterfront nice better to sell in the future.


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## Smith048 (23 Dec 2004)

Well Like some guys have said before. We have heard this from the Gov over and over again about giving more money to us. But it would be nice for once if they actually did. 



 :mg:              :fifty:


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## Whiskey_Dan (23 Dec 2004)

YAY, "NEW" Equipment, just like the "new" C130-H's right? All under 30 years old!
Think this new gear will arrive by the time I join up with the regs in a couple years? Sure hope so, it'd be nice to use gear the was younger, not older then me.
Let's hope politics doesn't get in the way this time.


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## mo-litia (23 Dec 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Sniff, sniff. Do any of you smell that? Smells like pre-electioneering to me. Either that, or I'm having a stroke.



Couldn't have said it better myself.  But wait, maybe it's true . . . the Liberals have finally opened their eyes to our defense needs. . . and maybe the gov't will start building Avro Arrows, buy some aircraft carriers and hire more personnel so the CF may actually have more members than the NYPD !  ;D


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## oyaguy (23 Dec 2004)

Personally, I find this wishlist to be pretty reasonable. Unlike the Mulroney White Paper, this wishlist isn't promising the moon. The Mulroney white paper had something like a half-dozen{don't quote me on the #} nuclear submarine in the offering. 

If the Liberals were promising the moon, I think we could kiss the next white paper goodbye, like Mulroney did with his.
I applaud the government for making some reasonable choices, and setting a time table for CAPITAL expenditures. New equipment instead of extra, one-time only, money to keep the current stuff going. Let's hope these new expenditures will come through before I finish university{I'm a first year student, thank god finals are finished}.


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## The_Falcon (23 Dec 2004)

From the Toronto Sun


> Thu, December 23, 2004
> 
> 
> Grits to share military plan
> ...



Thats real nice Graham  believes that the paper will find support among "Academics and Politicians".  That kind of sentiment scares me, I would like it a whole lot better he believed that the paper would have the support of the top brass at DND (at minimum).  I as a ground pounder frankly don't give a rats @$$ if it has the support of some egg-head university prof or fat cat politician. As for the money commitments I will believe it when I see it.


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## McG (23 Dec 2004)

> Tougher, meaner breed of peacekeeper needed: Graham
> MIKE BLANCHFIELD
> Ottawa Citizen
> (Printed in Edmonton Journal - 22 Dec 04)
> ...


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## The_Falcon (23 Dec 2004)

> Canadians had better prepare for a meaner, tougher version of the stereo typical peacekeeper because almost all of the new 5,000 personnel for the Armed Forces will go towards army soldiers in the hope of doubling Canada's foreign fighting force, Defence Minister Bill Graham says.
> 
> â Å“The nature of peacekeeping itself has changed,â ? he said Tuesday in a year-end interview.  â Å“You have to fight your way in. You're going to have to go into a situation where you're going to have to fight to establish stability first and then you're going to have to bring democracy, and institution building and humanitarian aid.â ?  That characterization is squarely at odds with the kinder, gentler peace-keeper image that Prime Minister Paul Martin put forth last year when he promised the additional troops during the federal election campaign.



This is actually shocking stuff to hear from a Liberal like Graham. He might actually be getting the fact that you have to have soldiers first before you can have peacemakers/keepers.


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## Cloud Cover (23 Dec 2004)

Beware of lists like that around Christmas.


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## aesop081 (23 Dec 2004)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> > Canadians had better prepare for a meaner, tougher version of the stereo typical peacekeeper because almost all of the new 5,000 personnel for the Armed Forces will go towards army soldiers in the hope of doubling Canada's foreign fighting force, Defence Minister Bill Graham says.
> >
> > â Å“The nature of peacekeeping itself has changed,â ? he said Tuesday in a year-end interview.   â Å“You have to fight your way in. You're going to have to go into a situation where you're going to have to fight to establish stability first and then you're going to have to bring democracy, and institution building and humanitarian aid.â ?   That characterization is squarely at odds with the kinder, gentler peace-keeper image that Prime Minister Paul Martin put forth last year when he promised the additional troops during the federal election campaign.
> 
> ...



I've heard that stuff being thrown around Ottawa since i got in in 93......i am not holding my breath ! Anybody remember the 1994 white paper  ?


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## vr (25 Dec 2004)

Merry Christmas to all...and to Mr Graham "Show me the money!" :dontpanic:


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## Canuck_25 (25 Dec 2004)

Marauder said:
			
		

> > "The forces over the last few years have been stretched. We've had what they call a very heavy operational tempo. It's like driving a car too long without replacing the bearings. There are some bearings that need to be replaced," he said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Not be a dick, but its a simile


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## Slim (26 Dec 2004)

> Canadians had better prepare for a meaner, tougher version of the stereo typical peacekeeper because almost all of the new 5,000 personnel for the Armed Forces will go towards army soldiers in the hope of doubling Canada's foreign fighting force, Defence Minister Bill Graham says.



I don't doubt that the CF will be lucky if it sees a third of what the white paper is talking about. I just can't believe that the liberals would say something like that out loud! Must be Christmas smoke-blowing or some other type of election foolishness.

Be nice if it was true though. I mean it sounds like someone actually took the time to sit down and figure out what the CF needs.

I guess we'll see...

Cheers

Slim


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## Slim (27 Dec 2004)

I was listening to the radio on the way home from work today and the high forehead from some prestigious university or other, who was doing the speaking, said that despite all the promises to the CF about new this and new that and the increase in manpower (5000 troopies) the armed forces shouldn't really expect anything signifigant for the next roughly 40 (40?...how they came up with that number I don't know but thats what he said) years or so. Apparently its just another method for the liberals to stay in office.

I am going to try and find a link to this program for all to see as the speaker said quite a bit more that I didn't include (good memory, just short)

Cheers

Slim


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## Love793 (1 Jan 2005)

I feel like I've heard this before.


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## Peace_Keeper (1 Jan 2005)

"so the CF may actually have more members than the NYPD !"

.....you do realize you just said the CF would be in the ten highest countries personal wise right??? funny


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## Slim (6 Jan 2005)

Get ready for a cabinet shuffle. Bill Graham will wind up in healthcare and that's the last we'll see of the defense proposal!

Slim


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## Kirkhill (6 Jan 2005)

Rumour, fact, or idle speculation?


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## Slim (6 Jan 2005)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Rumour, fact, or idle speculation?



Complete 100% home-grown idle speculation...Born out by past events and my own pessemism.

Don't get me wrong, I woujld love to see things get better. I just have a hard time believing it now.

Keeping the fingers crossed though...

Slim


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## Kirkhill (6 Jan 2005)

Ok now I believe you and am seriously worried,

Cheers ;D


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## Slim (9 Jan 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Get ready for a cabinet shuffle. Bill Graham will wind up in healthcare and that's the last we'll see of the defense proposal!
> 
> Slim



*What did I say!!!*

Prime Minister Appoints New Deputy Minister of National Defence
August 5, 2004
Ottawa, Ontario


Prime Minister Paul Martin today announced the appointment of Ward P.D. Elcock as Deputy Minister of National Defence. 

Mr. Elcock is a seasoned executive with more than thirty years' experience in the Government of Canada, where he has held positions at the most senior levels.  Prior to becoming Director of the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service in 1994, a position he held for ten years, Mr. Elcock had served with the Privy Council Office, where he held during five years, the position of Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council (Security and Intelligence) and Counsel, one of the most senior positions in the organization. He also served as Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet (Legislation and House Planning/Counsel) for six years.  Mr. Elcock has a B.A. in Political Science from Carleton University and a LL.B. from the Osgoode Hall Law School (York University).

The Prime Minister took this opportunity to thank Hélène Gosselin, Associate Deputy Minister of National Defence, who acted as Deputy Minister since December 2003. 

This appointment is effective immediately


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## winchable (10 Jan 2005)

Not trying hijack the thread but I didn't want to start a new one.

On Global (in Halifax/the East at least) they're holding a Mock Court Martial of the Canadian government due to their neglect of the military.
Check it out if you haven't seen it before.

Back on topic.


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