# London teen dedicated to peace



## schart28 (27 Dec 2007)

London Free Press
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2007/12/27/4740962-sun.html


Martin Schoots-McAlpine is at the helm of a group protesting military recruiting in local schools.

By PATRICK MALONEY, SUN MEDIA

A teenage London activist wants you to join his campaign to end in-school recruiting by the Canadian Forces. 

Martin Schoots-McAlpine, a student who has protested the practice at London's South secondary school, is looking for teens from across the city to be part of a group that will hold similar demonstrations at other city high schools. 

"We need to be extremely critical of the people that are in charge of the military," said the 18-year-old, whose group is called the Student Network Against Recruitment in London (SNARL). 

A scheduled October visit to South by a Canadian Forces recruiter so irked Schools-McAlpine, he organized his own simultaneous counter-recruitment event. 

Originally opposed by school administrators, he was ultimately allowed to hold his counter-event. 

Now, through the social networking website Facebook.com, he's started SNARL, attracting about 100 members so far -- and some fierce criticism. 

Another London student apparently considers SNARL a cyber shot across the bow and, in response, has started his own Facebook page, the Student Association for Respecting our Military. 

The page includes a rebuke of Schoots-McAlpine and his views on the military. 

"If you were smart, knew how to debate (which you claim you do) and knew how to present a problem well . . . you would show both sides of the story," the page's administrator wrote. 

"Why are you covering up the good side (of enlisting)?" 

The military had no criticism of SNARL's efforts. 

"It (protest) happens from time to time and that's the beauty of our democracy. Even if it's against us, that's perfectly fine," said Capt. Holly Brown of the Canadian Forces recruiting group. 

"We've been (going into schools) for years and years and years. We're going in just like any other employer, to offer career options. We're not actively recruiting, we're not signing anyone up." 

To join SNARL, enter its full name into Facebook. 

Schoots-McAlpine can also be reached at Snarllondon@gmail.com


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## Rodahn (1 Jan 2008)

And we are to presume that this teen has never been in a fight before????


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## ModlrMike (1 Jan 2008)

Being bored the other day, I took the opportunity to look a the group on Facebook. He has all the leftist buzz words, the stifling of debate, and the name-calling in lieu of arguments one would expect. I can't wait until this guy gets a taste of the real world.


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## FullMetalParka (1 Jan 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Being bored the other day, I took the opportunity to look a the group on Facebook. He has all the leftist buzz words, the stifling of debate, and the name-calling in lieu of arguments one would expect. I can't wait until this guy gets a taste of the real world.



Classic ultralib behavior. Don't actually bring anything to the table or say anything of meaning; just try to discredit your opponent.


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## retiredgrunt45 (1 Jan 2008)

Sounds like he has a future in politics, or greenpeace ;D


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## Rayman (1 Jan 2008)

You know I wonder if types like him ever think that the military and its existance basically protects him and the other members of his group. Then again if I were the principal of that school I would say "Ok, so youre against recruiting? Lets cancel all invitations to all companies and corporations who are looking to hire students or looking to apprentice youths. Heck, while were at it take down the job board at the Student Services office as you know Mc Donalds on Main is just looking to recruit a guy to flip burgers after all." Then id just love to see the reaction from his peers. The reaction would be rather sickening, but it would put someone like that in his place. These kids just listen to a Good Charolette CD and think its all cool to be punk and liberal and all that, then go off and start these dumb groups. I admit im not that old myself, but without our military even I know that life today as we know it would be a whole lot different. 

Though if this guy just uses personal attack and cannot provide a good argument all this is simply: a bunch of kids with too much time on their hands just looking to stir up something.


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## Teflon (1 Jan 2008)

Yet another sad little child that wants the options of his/her peers to be reduced because he/she knows that they are mindless little twerps that will fall for the shiny ads and that he/she of course being smarter and more self aware can decide for them what employers are suitable to inform them.  He/She doesn't agree with something so ban information on it in schools. I wonder how this person finds time to spend on facebook with all the book burning he/she must have to insite?

Smells like,...... freedom!


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## Blindspot (2 Jan 2008)

Teflon said:
			
		

> Yet another sad little child that wants the options of his/her peers to be reduced because he/she knows that they are mindless little twerps that will fall for the shiny ads and that he/she of course being smarter and more self aware can decide for them what employers are suitable to inform them.  He/She doesn't agree with something so ban information on it in schools. I wonder how this person finds time to spend on facebook with all the book burning he/she must have to insite?
> 
> Smells like,...... freedom!



I believe it to be far more insidious than this. If you look deeper, you will find one of the admins of Martin's Facebook group "Student Network Against Recruitment in London" to be one David Heap. David Heap happens to be a professor of Linguistics at The University of Western Ontario and based on photos linked to the group, looks as though he's been a major organiser with this "highschool" movement. In fact, as evidenced by posts he has made to SNARL and the counter group mentioned, he comes off like a campus socialist. Could it be that the activists have some kind of nefarious agenda with respect to recruiting young and impressionable minds?


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Jan 2008)

These guys will attract about the same number of people who join the Chess Club or the Math Club (nothing wrong with either of those but they are not attractive to your average high schooler). They are not mainstream and if not for the Media no one would pay them very much attention. Of course if he gets really devious and recruits the best looking girls in the school then we're in trouble. Somehow I think it's not going to happen.


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## Franko (2 Jan 2008)

I took a few minutes, wasted actually, and read through some of the drivel.

What made me chuckle the most was the amount of posts actually deleted because they didn't tow the line or were trying to have a counter point. Freedom at it's best.

As for banning the CF Recruiting from schools, may as well stop job fairs altogether. Stop any sort of OJT for the schools that offer the program as well to companies recruiting prospective employees from high schools that specialize in blue collar trades while they're at it.

I certainly wouldn't want my kid being exposed to a possible employment opportunity on school property.

Regards


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## ModlrMike (2 Jan 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> As for banning the CF Recruiting from schools, may as well stop job fairs altogether. Stop any sort of OJT for the schools that offer the program as well to companies recruiting prospective employees from high schools that specialize in blue collar trades while they're at it.



That's exactly what they should do... and wait for the student/parent revolt. 

"In order to be fair to all employers, we have decided rather than ban one, we will cancel the job fair entirely."


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Jan 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> That's exactly what they should do... and wait for the student/parent revolt.
> 
> "In order to be fair to all employers, we have decided rather than ban one, we will cancel the job fair entirely."



That was their answer to Christmas...ban it from the schools altogether because one or two people got their knickers in a knot.


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## Pte.Butt (2 Jan 2008)

This facebook group angers me I have been reading if it for the past 20 mins or so, and all I have witnessed was the same garbage as before, nothing but cheap shots and bull@#$% towards the military. A few people who have posted their own opinion that conflicted with the groups opinion, have been deleted. I guess that this group doesn't understand that this country is about Democracy, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
This group is seen taking a blow at the military here... 





> Opposing violence against women is also among our important reasons for opposing military recruitment and the current mission in Afghanistan, see for example http://www.malalaijoya.com/index1024.htm


  So the Canadian Forces is abusing women now? One of the few military's in the world that promotes equity in the work place, abusing women? I don't @#$%ing think so. This SNARL group really has no idea what is actually happening over there, and I think they are very naive people for wanting to ban recruiting from schools. It's not like the recruiter is in schools to grab a few unsuspecting students and throws them in a duffel bag and as he runs to the milcot parked outside he shouts ''START THE ENGINE CPL! LETS GO!'' He is there to allow students to have a briefing on what life in Canadian Forces is about and what it offers, they do this for future recruitment. There is no green Army bus waiting outside for students to hop on after the the 3 o'clock bell. Banning recruiting from schools is eliminating a very significant career choice for students, what other job can pay up to 50% tuition for post-secondary? What other job will pay YOU to be paid to be trained in a trade that you can use on civi side? These people have it all wrong. I think it's about time that the rest of Canada recognizes this and finally puts an end to this bull@#$% speculation.


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Jan 2008)

So start a facebook group that counters this groups position. Argue your points in a clear, polite and professional manner. Don't delete their drivel but counter them with rational and correct facts of your own. There are always ways to combat this kind of stuff folks.


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## Pte.Butt (2 Jan 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> So start a facebook group that counters this groups position. Argue your points in a clear, polite and professional manner. Don't delete their drivel but counter them with rational and correct facts of your own. There are always ways to combat this kind of stuff folks.



Correct me if I am wrong, but we as Military members are not allowed to partake in such event?


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## midget-boyd91 (2 Jan 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> There are always ways to combat this kind of stuff folks.



A two-by-four and a roll of duct tape.  Tape them into a chair in front of a computer screen with a Ruxted article on it.


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Jan 2008)

As long as you follow the rules laid out by the CDS in his CANFORGEN then you should not have an issue.

If you are worried do you not have sympathetic friends that you can turn to, to do the same thing?


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## Pte.Butt (2 Jan 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> As long as you follow the rules laid out by the CDS in his CANFORGEN then you should not have an issue.
> 
> If you are worried do you not have sympathetic friends that you can turn to, to do the same thing?



I'll certainly look into this.


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## ModlrMike (2 Jan 2008)

A group with an opposing viewpoint has already been created specifically in response to SNARL:

Student Association for Respecting our Military


_
Edit for grammar._


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## NL_engineer (2 Jan 2008)

Well, I was quite disgusted, but look what I uncovered: this  (This is the same kid, found the link form his My Space form  here)


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## Greymatters (2 Jan 2008)

That explains a lot... not that there's anything wrong with being a devout Marxist-Leninist who claims an anti-military stance, despite all Marxist-Leninist nations worldwide having large aggressive military forces and repressive political systems... :


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## The Bread Guy (2 Jan 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> A group with an opposing viewpoint has already been created specifically in response to SNARL:
> 
> Student Association for Respecting our Military



Well, I notice it got SOME coverage in the piece, so I guess that the media's focus continues to be "anti-military first, then maybe pro-military" - funny how there's no e-mail address to the group MM mentioned above in the article....

-- edited on closer reading of original article - dohh! --


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## Good2Golf (2 Jan 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> That explains a lot... not that there's anything wrong with being a devout Marxist-Leninist who claims an anti-military stance, despite all Marxist-Leninist nations worldwide having large aggressive military forces and repressive political systems... :



+1


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## aesop081 (2 Jan 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> That explains a lot... not that there's anything wrong with being a devout Marxist-Leninist who claims an anti-military stance, despite all Marxist-Leninist nations worldwide having large aggressive military forces and repressive political systems... :



Please do not aproach the situation with facts. We all know what facts do to debates.

 :


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Jan 2008)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> This facebook group angers me I have been reading if it for the past 20 mins or so, and all I have witnessed was the same garbage as before, nothing but cheap shots and bull@#$% towards the military. A few people who have posted their own opinion that conflicted with the groups opinion, have been deleted. I guess that this group doesn't understand that this country is about Democracy, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
> This group is seen taking a blow at the military here...   So the Canadian Forces is abusing women now? One of the few military's in the world that promotes equity in the work place, abusing women? I don't @#$%ing think so. This SNARL group really has no idea what is actually happening over there, and I think they are very naive people for wanting to ban recruiting from schools. It's not like the recruiter is in schools to grab a few unsuspecting students and throws them in a duffel bag and as he runs to the milcot parked outside he shouts ''START THE ENGINE CPL! LETS GO!'' He is there to allow students to have a briefing on what life in Canadian Forces is about and what it offers, they do this for future recruitment. There is no green Army bus waiting outside for students to hop on after the the 3 o'clock bell. Banning recruiting from schools is eliminating a very significant career choice for students, what other job can pay up to 50% tuition for post-secondary? What other job will pay YOU to be paid to be trained in a trade that you can use on civi side? These people have it all wrong. I think it's about time that the rest of Canada recognizes this and finally puts an end to this bull@#$% speculation.



The thing is that it's his page and he can add or subtract anything he wants....just as we can here. 

As I said earlier this guy is the equivalent of the Chemistry club at his High School....a boring little twerp with his leftie views in place ready for the young socialists at whatever university he decides to infest.
There were young NDPers at my HS when I was growing up....we used to laugh at them and their earnest little left wing commentaries about the evil US and the Viet Nam war....these guys are no different.
When I attended UBC for my Under Grad and Grad degrees we had a lot of them there too.....last seen shackled to a tree near Port Alberni no doubt!


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## Greymatters (2 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Please do not aproach the situation with facts. We all know what facts do to debates.  :



My bad...  I'll try and dig up some distorted myths, rhetoric and propoganda to replace those...


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## Delicron (2 Jan 2008)

Does this not smack of the recent little stupidity at the University of Victoria (I believe there was another thread on it)?  The Student Society there actually banned the Recruiters from what I recall.  I looked it up and found this interesting tidbit:



> Shannon Lucy, a third-year anthropology student, supports the UVSS decision.
> 
> "I'm not for censorship," said Lucy. "But since the Canadian Armed Forces is doing illegal things, they don't really have any business on a public site. We can't be endorsing them."


http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/uvic-students-challenge-ban-military-recruiting-0

That kind of scares me.  Being just out of University last year, the fact that this kind of rhetoric gets _any_ sort of sanction makes me kind of depressed!  Thankfully I didn't see this level of idiocy at the U of Calgary (though I am sure there are many there that support this kind of doctrine).  What is it about educational institutions that brings about people with this level of intolerance and self-righteousness?  Mention of this always makes me angry, but the implication that somehow the military is acting illegally?  That's ridiculous.  This seems to be a very similar line of thought from the under-educated High School student from London, not to mention the other lovely chap from another thread, Steven Staples.


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## GDawg (2 Jan 2008)

There is a section on the SNARL facebook page for dissenting opinions. I actually joined the group to lend some constructive criticism to the young lad.
The fact that they have not replied to my arguments in the past 4 or 5 days, and that the dissenting opinions page has more commentary than the rest of the entire site combined by a margin of 2 is quite telling. Little Martin and his university equivalent of Senator Palpatine don't have legs to stand on in this debate. SNARL will no doubt die a quiet, anonymous death. Too bad they already got their minute of fame in the spotlight.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Jan 2008)

GDawg said:
			
		

> There is a section on the SNARL facebook page for dissenting opinions. I actually joined the group to lend some constructive criticism to the young lad.
> The fact that they have not replied to my arguments in the past 4 or 5 days, and that the dissenting opinions page has more commentary than the rest of the entire site combined by a margin of 2 is quite telling. Little Martin and his university equivalent of Senator Palpatine don't have legs to stand on in this debate. SNARL will no doubt die a quiet, anonymous death. Too bad they already got their minute of fame in the spotlight.



Oh don't worry when he runs for NDP MP for London he'll put in his Bio that he was a student activist concerned with "social issues." If you are that, a teacher/professor or a Social Worker you're a shoe in for the nomination!


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## GDawg (2 Jan 2008)

Thats a shame, the NDP used to have some good MPs and they usually field good honest people in the rural ridings, unfortunately/fortunately  the only candidates you hear about in the news are the moonbeam tree huggers or the Nazi's in orange. This is just another crazy left wing "for the people, by the people" movement that has no backing or basis in reality.


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## Blindspot (2 Jan 2008)

Pte.Butt said:
			
		

> This group is seen taking a blow at the military here...   So the Canadian Forces is abusing women now? One of the few military's in the world that promotes equity in the work place, abusing women?



Martin spouts off worse things in the counter website in rebuttal to pro-military arguments. For example, he compares CF recruiters to child predators and mentions paedophilia. He also contends that Nazis should not be allowed free speech and uses this argument as a basis for why the CF should not be allowed to recruit in schools.


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## Blindspot (2 Jan 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Well, I was quite disgusted, but look what I uncovered: this  (This is the same kid, found the link form his My Space form  here)



Are you surprised considering his mentor, David Heap, has gone out of his way to look like Leon Trotsky?


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## NL_engineer (2 Jan 2008)

Thats news to me, I never searched him


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## The Bread Guy (2 Jan 2008)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> As I said earlier this guy is the equivalent of the Chemistry club at his High School....a boring little twerp with his leftie views in place ready for the young socialists at whatever university he decides to infest.



True enough, but with one critical difference:  I don't see MSM sharing too many of the views of the chemistry club on the air/in the paper/on the 'net.

Let's hope the story just goes away....


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## Greymatters (2 Jan 2008)

Delicron said:
			
		

> Does this not smack of the recent little stupidity at the University of Victoria (I believe there was another thread on it)?



That would be this one:

UVIC threads on Recruiting, Protests & Students against War 
(http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/66411.0.html)


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## GDawg (3 Jan 2008)

The verbal war with David Heap has really heated up on facebook. This guy has a vicious hate-on for people in uniform. I'm still arguing with him, though my one and only new years resolution was to not argue with assholes on the internet (More specifically, on the Globe and Mail website). I'm gonna head off to the woods for a few days to get away from the various electronic stress boxes that plague me. If you're in a mood for an interesting read or would like to argue with your social/intellectual "better", then you really ought to drop by.


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## Blindspot (3 Jan 2008)

What an assclown. What is it about linguistics professors?


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## Greymatters (3 Jan 2008)

http://www.studentsforacademicfreedom.org/documents/2063/students-for-academic-freedom-handbook

This link is to the site for "Students for Academic Freedom".  Although an American organization, it has several good ideas on how students can organize counter-movements against the anti-war / extreme liberal mentalities currently present among the student body and faculty of most of Canada's universities and colleges.  The handbook basically uses the same methods that the anti-war groups use, explaining how to set up a legitmate organization and gain campus funding.  A great how-to book for setting up any organization.     

The SAF was created as a result of numerous incidents in the US where students were punished in the form of reduced grades and other incidents for verbally or textually presenting ideas their instructors or other students didnt agree with, primarily conservative opinions or support for the military.  Cant speak for whether this organization has any ulterior motives, or whether it also supports the extreme crazy opinions that tend to come in when the door of 'free speech' is opened too widely, but I am interested if we have something similiar in Canada?


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## ModlrMike (3 Jan 2008)

GDawg said:
			
		

> The verbal war with David Heap has really heated up on facebook. This guy has a vicious hate-on for people in uniform. I'm still arguing with him, though my one and only new years resolution was to not argue with assholes on the internet (More specifically, on the Globe and Mail website). I'm gonna head off to the woods for a few days to get away from the various electronic stress boxes that plague me. If you're in a mood for an interesting read or would like to argue with your social/intellectual "better", then you really ought to drop by.



My impression is that while the group may have been started by an over-eager teenager, this David Heap has usurped the groups purpose and taken it as his own private soap box.


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## Franko (3 Jan 2008)

You do realize that you're arguing with (David Heap included) children don't you?

Regards


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## ModlrMike (3 Jan 2008)

Surprisingly, I've resisted the temptation to enter an argument with any of them. The group still makes for entertaining reading.


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## Hawk (3 Jan 2008)

Sorry - I tried to read through some of this and it was like listening to a bunch of children fighting. No interest. Perhaps some day they will grow up - or they'll be talking when they should be listening some day, and the obvious result will ensue.


Hawk


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## GDawg (4 Jan 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> You do realize that you're arguing with (David Heap included) children don't you?
> 
> Regards



Roger that, I try not to get sucked into these things, but I am thoroughly irritated by Op Objection, though I don't recruit anymore it brings a smile to my face when ever these goofs are called out for the fools they are. I expect these fellows will get shot down by the community at large a la U of Vic.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Jan 2008)

Here, folks, is the next step in the campaign:  spreading the word OUTSIDE London.  I note in this piece, they didn't even bother sharing the fact that there's another side on Facebook.  

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

*Student aims to recruit support*
JONATHAN SHER, SUN MEDIA (London Free Press), 12 Jan 08
Article link - .pdf permalink 

A student who's led protests against military recruiting at two London high schools has set his sights on banning the practice across Canada.

Martin Schoots-McAlpine, in Grade 12 at South Secondary, wants to set a path for protests he hopes will spur activism nationally.

"London may be an embryo of a group across Canada," he said.

With protests already at South and Banting secondary schools, Schoots-McAlpine, a self-described "non-denominational communist," is inviting those concerned with military recruiting at schools to meet at 3 p.m. today at William's Coffee Pub by Victoria Park.

Some may not share his interest in Karl Marx, or his belief Canadian workers are being exploited, but he says he welcomes them just the same.

"It's going to be interesting to see how anarchists, communists, socialists and liberals come together," he said.

It's the second meeting of a group he calls the Student Network Against Recruitment in London -- SNARL for short.

He hopes to build the strength of the group so it survives after he graduates in June.

His efforts have benefited from the guidance of a much more seasoned activist, David Heap, whose first exposure to protests came during the Vietnam War.

*"I was in the peace movement before I could walk," *said Heap, a French professor at the University of Western Ontario.

Heap's parents housed Vietnam War resisters in their Toronto home and he followed that tradition growing up, by protesting against the testing of cruise missiles in Canada during the 1980s.

*"I see myself as a resource," Heap said of his assistance to SNARL.*

Both Heap and Schoots-McAlpine question whether Canada would be better off without a military -- an opinion those in the Canadian Forces say is part of a democratic dialogue they are duty-bound to protect.

"They're absolutely entitled to voice their opinions," said Capt. Holly Brown, a spokesperson on recruiting for the Canadian Forces.

Cpt. Paul Teremchuck, who heads recruiting in London, says it's absolutely essential to a functioning military.

"We have to maintain our numbers," he said.

Recruiters in London try to visit every area high school twice a year -- 120 visits in all -- seeking recruits generally and those to fill positions that often need academic technical skill.

"It's very important for us to have access to young men and women in (schools)," said Teremchuck, who says he's seeking a post in Afghanistan.

Both Schoots-McAlpine and Heap claim recruiters make questionable promises that lure students to join.

Teremchuck disputes that.

"I'm confident recruiting staff will pass on accurate information," Teremchuck said.


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## Franko (12 Jan 2008)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> With protests already at South and Banting secondary schools, Schoots-McAlpine, a self-described "non-denominational communist," is inviting those concerned with military recruiting at schools to meet at 3 p.m. today at William's Coffee Pub by Victoria Park.
> 
> Some may not share his interest in Karl Marx, or his belief Canadian workers are being exploited, but he says he welcomes them just the same.
> 
> "It's going to be interesting to see how anarchists, communists, socialists and liberals come together," he said.



The kid hasn't figured out that communism doesn't work. 




> His efforts have benefited from the guidance of a much more seasoned activist, David Heap, whose first exposure to protests came during the Vietnam War.
> 
> "I was in the peace movement before I could walk," said Heap, a French professor at the University of Western Ontario.
> 
> ...



This Prof is the puppet master, plain and simple.

Regards


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## rmc_wannabe (12 Jan 2008)

I thought universities and schools were supposed to be an outlet for logical, well contructed ideas and ways of thinking.I guess I was mislead by all those UWO students that held a seminar at my highschool, they should be the ones banned from schools  :.


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## Shamrock (12 Jan 2008)

Unfortunately, all too many people who attend University confirm their world perspective, not challenge it.


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## NL_engineer (12 Jan 2008)

> Both Heap and Schoots-McAlpine question whether Canada would be better off without a military -- an opinion those in the Canadian Forces say is part of a democratic dialogue they are duty-bound to protect.



MODS, do we have some news people quoting us again, as it is a statement that we keep making on the sight.


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## NL_engineer (12 Jan 2008)

> "It's going to be interesting to see how anarchists, communists, socialists and liberals come together," he said.



Hopefully they get them selves on the RCMP, or CSIS' watch list (just like the Canadian Communist party  ;D)


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## Stumpf (12 Jan 2008)

I'm in London and frankly, this disgusts me. If they come to my school they'll be in for a real fight. 

I wish it were possible to overdose on weed, then these guys would all be hospitialized at the very least.


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## Delicron (12 Jan 2008)

As my earlier quote from those wonderful people at UVic prove, Universities often make this outlook much worse.  Professors often narrow students already unrealistic view of the world.  I hated being the lone dissenter in a class that often had people bashing or discrediting (often with incorrect or out of context facts) military and political action.  I hate this world view because whatever the Military or Government does, it seems to be wrong in some fashion to them.


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## Franko (12 Jan 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> MODS, do we have some news people quoting us again, as it is a statement that we keep making on the sight.



They are on here all the time. Some are even members.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (12 Jan 2008)

Maybe these guys need to be called in on scene in London...


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## NL_engineer (12 Jan 2008)

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> Maybe these guys need to be called in on scene in London...



Where can I buy it  ;D

I think this sign relay fits


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## blacktriangle (12 Jan 2008)

We had a guy come to speak about afghanistan at my school- He was working on his masters in pol sci. His eye liner and long hair were just screaming left wing/anti war...but that is the spin that the teacher wanted to use to "educate" her students. 

 :


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## FascistLibertarian (12 Jan 2008)

Pte.Butt I have to say that while I disagree with this facebook group I agree 100% with their right to ban members and posts they dont like.
We have freedom of speech of course, but the group is theirs. Here we can ban and deleate people and posts we disagree with.

Freedom of speech (which we dont have) and demo doesnt mean that people cant delete what you post on their website or message board.


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## Roy Harding (12 Jan 2008)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Pte.Butt I have to say that while I disagree with this facebook group I agree 100% with their right to ban members and posts they dont like.
> We have freedom of speech of course, but the group is theirs. Here we can ban and deleate people and posts we disagree with.
> 
> Freedom of speech (which we dont have) and demo doesnt mean that people cant delete what you post on their website or message board.



You're right.  The internet has blurred the distinction between "public" and "private" space.

I'd argue with your contention that we don't have freedom of speech - we DO have freedom of expression, which I think covers it.


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## FascistLibertarian (12 Jan 2008)

Sorry Roy, Im just bitter over these HRC's (which isnt really what this topic is about, so I should drop it)


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## Roy Harding (12 Jan 2008)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Sorry Roy, Im just bitter over these HRC's (which isnt really what this topic is about, so I should drop it)



Don't be "sorry" - it's a sign of weakness.  

I'm bitter about the same things - I'd LIKE to confine the little creep to a chair and present FACTS to him until he pukes.

BUT - I don't have that right - I have a right to contradict him publicly, or make slimy remarks about him.

I refuse to do the latter, I doubt that I'd make much headway on the former - so I choose to ignore him.

In my experience - which I'll grant is limited - young folk are easily lead astray - they are ALSO easily lead to facts, IFF those facts are presented in a calm, non-judgemental manner.  Give them the FACTS, let them process them, answer their questions HONESTLY (even if those honest answers appear to contradict your point of view) - and see what happens.

In the case of this _particular_ young fella - I'd suggest that he hasn't had his questions answered _HONESTLY_, but has instead been fed a line of bull from his professors - and perhaps, his parents.


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## a_majoor (16 Jan 2008)

Making friends all over......

http://lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=14022&x=letters&l_publish_date=&s_publish_date=&s_keywords=&s_topic=&s_letter_type=Letter%20to%20Editor&s_topic=&s_letter_status=Active&s=letters



> *Student aims to recruit support Saturday, January 12, 2008 *
> 
> Although high school student, Martin Schoots McAlpine, doesn't specifically state the reason for his infatuation with "non-denominational communism", it surely cannot be because of any historical pacific nature of communism itself. Communism is responsible for the deaths of upwards of 100 million people at the hands of those, who supposedly knew better than everybody else the nature of communism. That total doesn't include the cost in human life suffered in stopping the expansion of the Hitlerian version of National Socialism.
> 
> ...


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## rz350 (25 Jan 2008)

*sigh* why does this side of left wing and socalist exist. It really stains the rest of us IMHO.

Not all of us are anti army, anti goverment wing nuts. Oh well. Hopefully he fizzles out to a life of being a food bank voulenteer or some such nonsense.


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## FascistLibertarian (25 Jan 2008)

There are stupid people in every group


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## IN HOC SIGNO (1 Feb 2008)

Meanwhile the lunacy continues out West:
http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2008/02/01/peace-groups-target-military-recruiters-crushing-freedom-of-speech-in-the-process.aspx

PEACE GROUPS TARGET MILITARY RECRUITERS CRUSHING FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN THE PROCESS 


Incidents where peace groups have protested the presence of Canadian Forces recruiters on university and college campuses appear to be increasing but no where is the practice so in vogue as at the University of Victoria in BC.



On Wednesday about 20 protesters, dressed as pirates and pushing a “cardboard” tank, along with a group of "Raging Grannies" with a flag-draped coffin, targeted CF recruiters at the university job fair. 



What pissed off a couple of cyber readers of this blog was the fact that the peace group essentially tried to block people from getting to the CF recruiter’s table. They set up their "protest" table directly in front of, and about a foot and a half away, from the recruiter’s table ....and then anyone who wanted to get access to the CF booth had to run a gauntlet of peace protestors who informed them they would be dealing with a bunch of “baby killers" in uniform.



So much for freedom of speech, noted one of my readers.



A number of students on the UVic campus complained that this tactic took away their “freedom” to decide on their own whether to join the military, or even get a chance to look at the recruiting material.



Even some students who are against the Afghanistan war got their backs up; they clearly didn’t like the idea of the protesters being so presumptuous as to decide what students should and should not be allowed to hear and see on campus.



The military folks took it all in stride. “It’s their right to protest,” Petty Officer Randy Young, one of the recruiters, told my Times Colonist colleague Jack Knox. “I just wish they would give us a little room.”



(A little room for sure...the protesters pretty much had the military folks pushed up against a wall in the corner of the exhibition hall).



“I said ‘where’s our freedom of speech? and they said ‘it doesn’t work that way,” added Petty Officer Young.



The protesters used the event to smear the entire Canadian Forces because of one operation (Afghanistan). They essentially declared all folks in uniform “baby killers.”



It's a simplistic view to say the least. 



But the real question to ask the protesters is this: if you were drowning in the ocean after a pleasure cruise you were on went array would you refuse help from the CF SARTECH who risked his/her life and jumped into the frigid waters to pull your ass to safety? Or would you just slip under the waters and die, not wanting to take help from a "baby killer"? I think I know the answer to that one.



Or how about this question: If you were on vacation overseas and war or rioting erupted in that country and you were put at grave risk, would you refuse help from CF special operations forces sent in to get you out (think Haiti or Lebanon here)? Maybe not.



Or if an earthquake hits BC would you turn down purified water, food and blankets handed out by military personnel? (or think of the military’s role helping out in the 1998 ice storm, or during forest fires and floods, all of which have happened throughout parts of our country at one time or another ). I doubt anyone -- including a peace protester pushing a cardboard tank-- would be turning down that kind of help.



I believe this type of protest has the potential to backfire on the peace movement big time. While most Canadians may have varying opinions on the war in Afghanistan,...while most might even want the troops home.... I get the sense that the general public believes everyone is entitled to their views....or is entitled to be heard. Yes, the protesters were heard....loud and clear. But what about the recruiters? In this particular case, trying to crowd out/shout down a couple of officers at a job fair may not go over too well with the public.



By the way, the Canadian Forces recruiting table was placed at the back of the exhibition hall (ie. out of the way so no one could see it) by organizers who were worried about the protest. So at the very least the Canadian Forces should receive a full refund for the $1,100 they had to spend renting the space for the job fair.....as well as an apology from the organizers.


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## Rodahn (1 Feb 2008)

Ah, but double standards know no bounds..... Lunacy at it's best IMO.....


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## Rodahn (2 Feb 2008)

I wonder how these people would have us deal with issues like the following?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-01/30/content_7529228.htm


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