# AWOL Charge



## Halifax Tar

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/05/16/ns-cancer-sailor-awol-charge.html

Interesting read.  I truly hope there is more to this story or the RCN may come out looking quite hard handed to put it nicely.


----------



## Jacky Tar

I'm with you there, Halifax. I get the feeling she lives outside Halifax proper, so I could see it taking time to get into Stad. But if that's indeed the case, I don't get where the disobedience and AWOL charges come from. There's got to be more to it than this - or else her div chain needs to be slapped for aggravated stupid.


----------



## Franko

The JAG office wouldn't allow it to go forward if they thought it wouldn't stick.

Regards


----------



## Jarnhamar

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> The JAG office wouldn't allow it to go forward if they thought it wouldn't stick.
> 
> Regards



if I'm not mistaken the JAG office makes a recommendation however the charging unit can ignore JAGs advice and go ahead, or am I wrong?




If someone is ordered to sick parade and there is not a valid reason why they show up 2 hours late then the person would be AWOL for those two hours.


----------



## jollyjacktar

There's more to the story for sure I'd agree.  

Nevertheless, the system's coming across looking like a vindictive bully.  Justice may be done by her being run, but optics-wise it's not the appearance of it.  It's a lose-lose situation for command no matter what the outcome and the RCN's going to have the shiner after this is finished.


----------



## OldSolduer

There are some people out there who do not see things as we do.  I call them "rule book followers" and they will follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit.
This is going to make the RCN look very very bad.

The CoC can ignore JAG advice.


----------



## 63 Delta

She is set to release on 23 June 13. What a complete waste of time and effort to pin a 2 hour AWOL charge on someone on their way out, regardless of the circumstances.


----------



## cupper

What impressed me is the bit about starting chemo and the court martial on the same day. That would do wonders for one's stress level.

But I do agree that when I read it my impression was that there must be some more to the story, otherwise the immediate CoC is playing chicken poop games with someone who deserves better.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Even if there is something more to the story, I can't help but ask, what good will this serve the operational needs of the RCN? As others have stated, when a quick cost (monetary, Public Affairs, morale as a whole) versus benefit (setting an example to not be 2 hours late) is done, the costs surely outweigh the benefits.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Just flirting with the devils advocate here, how would we feel if the member being charged with AWOL was 2 hours late because 'he just didn't care since he was leaving the army next month anyways'.

Would we support him being charged because of his non-nonchalant attitude? Would we still consider the AWOL a waste of time and money if the guy was being a dick about it?  
In this case are we letting the soldiers unfortunate medical condition colour or response to the story?

I find this story (and the reactions) very interesting from a professional development point of view.


----------



## maple360

My thinking...

Person was hardworking and supervisors noticed said hard work. Person was late for 2 hours and major sickness was found, ships moral would take a hit and supervisors would not even take note of how long it took said person to get from point a to b and they would be more concerned with there health.

or..

Person was lazy and always didnt do there job (buddyf....). and the 2 hour late was just the straw the broke the camels back...

I know most coxswains are hard asses but almost all of them are fair.


----------



## Occam

maple360 said:
			
		

> cocksons



<groan>

That's *coxswains*.


----------



## JorgSlice

Occam said:
			
		

> <groan>
> 
> That's *coxswains*.



:rofl:


----------



## Maxadia

This:



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> There's more to the story for sure I'd agree.



and this:



> www.cbc.ca.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



Ya think, considering the source?


----------



## Robert0288

I read the CBC comments, I keep telling myself not too.  But it keeps happening  :crybaby:


----------



## MeanJean

She is also the one that elected for a court martial over a summary trial and then all of this ends up in the media.  It is interesting that the article does not state why she was late.  Either divulging that information may affect the trial or there may not be a valid reason.  I must say that if I found a lump or bump on me somewhere I wouldn't call in sick; I would get my a** into the base hospital and get it checked out. 

All that being said, I hope that the chemo goes well for her.


----------



## The Bread Guy

With _any_ media story, even those going into some detail with some context, we _never_ read/hear/see the ENTIRE story.  

It will be interesting seeing how this goes, and how it gets covered.


----------



## Old and Tired

I think I can state, with a fair degree of certainty, that there is FAR, FAR more to this than meets the eye.  This sailor was injuried on board her ship some time ago and was posted else where here in Halifax.  For a brief period she worked for me while waiting for decisions to be made.  I wish her the best of luck with her treatment and that she beats the beast she's fighting.  Actually both of them.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I have no doubt there is more at stake here.

Yes, the CoC can ignore the advice of the JAG office, but in my experience, at least in the Navy, charges are not our first knee-jerk reaction to a problem. Almost every captain I know always asks herself first if there is any other way to deal with a situation, or if there are facts at play that make it absolutely necessary for the good of the service to proceed with a charge.

What I find interesting here is this: It just so happen that the CBC broke the story: How? My guess is she called them in as a strategy to get the charge thrown out, knowing full well all the details she hid from the reporter. Note that this is coming out the week before the court martial, a date she would have known for a much longer period of time, that the starting of Chemo on the same day cannot be a coincidence: She would have known either the date of the CM or the Chemo before the other and could easily have arranged for an absence of coincidence. Finally: looking for sympathy - She already has lost her hair in the news report. I could be wrong but my understanding is that you lose your hair as a result of the chemo - not of the cancer. I know that to avoid the trauma of watching your hair fall, they recommend that you get your head shaved before starting chemo, but she waited after this happened to call the journalists in.

I certainly wish her well in her fight against cancer, but there is just too much missed by  CBC here to get my sympathy vote.

The way I see it, Public Relations should make sure that all local journalist are fully invited to witness this Court Martial, so that they have all the facts. That is the only counter to this type of reporting.


----------



## my72jeep

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I have no doubt there is more at stake here.
> 
> Yes, the CoC can ignore the advice of the JAG office, but in my experience, at least in the Navy, charges are not our first knee-jerk reaction to a problem. Almost every captain I know always asks herself first if there is any other way to deal with a situation, or if there are facts at play that make it absolutely necessary for the good of the service to proceed with a charge.
> 
> What I find interesting here is this: It just so happen that the CBC broke the story: How? My guess is she called them in as a strategy to get the charge thrown out, knowing full well all the details she hid from the reporter. Note that this is coming out the week before the court martial, a date she would have known for a much longer period of time, that the starting of Chemo on the same day cannot be a coincidence: She would have known either the date of the CM or the Chemo before the other and could easily have arranged for an absence of coincidence. Finally: looking for sympathy - She already has lost her hair in the news report. I could be wrong but my understanding is that you lose your hair as a result of the chemo - not of the cancer. I know that to avoid the trauma of watching your hair fall, they recommend that you get your head shaved before starting chemo, but she waited after this happened to call the journalists in.
> 
> I certainly wish her well in her fight against cancer, but there is just too much missed by  CBC here to get my sympathy vote.
> 
> *The way I see it, Public Relations should make sure that all local journalist are fully invited to witness this Court Martial, so that they have all the facts. That is the only counter to this type of reporting.*



CBC will never corer it if it turns out not to be big bad Military outcome!


----------



## drunknsubmrnr

> My guess is she called them in as a strategy to get the charge thrown out, knowing full well all the details she hid from the reporter.



She might also genuinely believe that she's being seen off, and called the reporters in over that.

She might actually have been adrift for two hours without a good reason, but what's the point in running her now when she's being released in a month?


----------



## MARS

drunknsubmrnr said:
			
		

> She might actually have been adrift for two hours without a good reason, but what's the point in running her now when she's being released in a month?



The Crown obviously has a reasonable expectation of a conviction or else I trust they would not be moving forward.  If so, then they are possibly looking at the four principles of sentencing, specifically the principle of 'general deterrence'.  Agree that since she is releasing the principle of 'specific deterrence' has little value but that's not the only aspect of sentencing.

My 2 cents


----------



## Robert0288

drunknsubmrnr said:
			
		

> She might also genuinely believe that she's being seen off, and called the reporters in over that.
> 
> She might actually have been adrift for two hours without a good reason, but what's the point in running her now when she's being released in a month?



You can't be released from the CF if you have a charge or any discipline issues still pending (Using release to avoid charges)*.  I think the only exception to this is if the charge carries over to provincial or federal court system, or you would be incarcerated there.  I'm sure someone else as a better reference/DOAD/CFAO/etc.. kicking around somewhere.

_*edited for clarity_


----------



## Nemo888

What does she do once she is released? Welfare? Is it possible that leaving this hanging over her head could keep her in and get her some decent medical insurance and some pay to get through the worst of the cancer? Just curious if this could possibly benefit her.


----------



## drunknsubmrnr

> The Crown obviously has a reasonable expectation of a conviction or else I trust they would not be moving forward.



I'm pretty sure it's the CO's decision to move forward with the CM, not DMP.


----------



## Robert0288

My google-fu is limited with DAOD/CFAO/QR&O.  But I was able to find this:



> _Such a transfer shall not be used to avoid the consequences of disciplinary action or compulsory release action._


http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5002-4-eng.asp

This only deals with CTs, but I have seen something similar applied in the past with people releasing from RegF


----------



## dapaterson

drunknsubmrnr said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure it's the CO's decision to move forward with the CM, not DMP.



No, once the charge sheet is signed, if the member elects court martial the CO can't suddenly decide "Oops, my bad."  Too much potential for abuse.


----------



## Strike

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> The way I see it, Public Relations should make sure that all local journalist are fully invited to witness this Court Martial, so that they have all the facts. That is the only counter to this type of reporting.



CMs are usually open to the public.  I've never heard of one being closed before  (unless it is to protect a victim or witness) so, with this making the news, it's likely that there will be media there.  It's not so much that CM dates are openly advertised to the media but if they ask if there are any going on there's no reason to withhold times and dates of such events.  Also, pretty sure the CM calendar is available in the internet.


----------



## drunknsubmrnr

Is DMP allowed to withdraw the charge, or does it take on a life of its own?


----------



## BernDawg

Strike said:
			
		

> CMs are usually open to the public.  I've never heard of one being closed before  (unless it is to protect a victim or witness) so, with this making the news, it's likely that there will be media there.  It's not so much that CM dates are openly advertised to the media but if they ask if there are any going on there's no reason to withhold times and dates of such events.  Also, pretty sure the CM calendar is available in the internet.



It sure is:

http://www.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/en/upcoming-courts-martial.page

Loads at work and I'm not on the DIN. I use it to keep track of my old Infantry buddies ;-)


----------



## Navy_Blue

It is very likely, that regardless of the pending charge her medical condition will have the release pulled and she will be retained by the CF until such a time that she is deemed free of the cancer.  She may even get a medical release at that point.  

The message is out for her charge and all are invited to attend including the public.  I think from a PR stand point it was really short sighted to charge this person  :facepalm:.  From a CF stand point a phone call to your unit prior to being late and a chit from sick bay is enough to cover your butt.  I will be interested to hear the history on this person when it comes out over the next few weeks.  

Should be interesting


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Interesting that she made a comment about 'how it feels at a ST'; perhaps there is a history/conduct sheet that is part of the equation?  

Regardless, I hope this 'goes as it should' given all the facts and factors, but more importantly I hope she regains her health and enjoys a long, fulfilling life.


----------



## Jacky Tar

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> I will be interested to hear the history on this person when it comes out over the next few weeks.



Same here. To quote from my (mis-spent) youth, there's "more than meets the eye!"


----------



## Strike

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> *I think from a PR stand point it was really short sighted to charge this person  *:facepalm:.  From a CF stand point a phone call to your unit prior to being late and a chit from sick bay is enough to cover your butt.  I will be interested to hear the history on this person when it comes out over the next few weeks.
> 
> Should be interesting



Not necessarily.  We don't know of this person's conduct prior to the event.  And if she had discovered that her reason for being ill was something else like the flu?  Hindsight is 20/20, especially when sitting on the sidelines.

With this CM now becoming somewhat big news I suspect that it will be well attended.  I hope that the member is confident in whatever will be brought up during the CM otherwise she might take a bit of a hit.  The fact that charges weren't dropped once her health issues became known gives the impression that JAG is confident of a guilty verdict.  I certainly would not have advocated her speaking to the media in this case.


----------



## MeanJean

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> I think from a PR stand point it was really short sighted to charge this person  :facepalm:.



PR isn't usually considered when laying charges against an individual with performance issues.  I am assuming that charges are not typically dispensed for first time offenders.  It is safe to say that the time the charges were laid, about a year ago, her superiors would not have known that the lump was malignant.  If she was diagnosed at that time she will have been waiting about a year for treatment.

It is quite the coincidence that her treatment and trial start on the same day.  Both sides of the story will be heard on that day.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

CBC News Nova Scotia is now reporting that the RCN has dropped all charges against Able Seaman Carol Anne Deyoung


----------



## Halifax Tar

Well apparently cooler heads have prevailed perhaps ?


----------



## ModlrMike

Still smells fishy to me. I hope this doesn't set a precedent where troops in trouble go to the media to manage their issues.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I would suspect MTF on this....


----------



## The Bread Guy

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> CBC News Nova Scotia is now reporting that the RCN has dropped all charges against Able Seaman Carol Anne Deyoung


More here....
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/05/17/ns-sailor-cancer-charges-dropped.html


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Thanks Tony......


----------



## FJAG

drunknsubmrnr said:
			
		

> Is DMP allowed to withdraw the charge, or does it take on a life of its own?



You are more right than those in this thread who say that the chain of command is pushing it forward.

The charges are initially laid by the chain of command within the unit. Legal advice from the regional legal advisor (AJAG or DJA or LegAd) and as some say, that legal advice is sometimes ignored.

If the charge is destined for a court martial (either because of the nature of the charge or because of an election) then the unit refers the charge up chain of command to a "Referal Authority" who reviews it and if the charge does require a trial by court martial refers it further for disposal to the Director of Military Prosecutions.

Upon receipt of a charge, DMP reviews it and IAW QR&O 110.04 either a) prefers the charge or an appropriate charge; b) refer it back to an appropriate summary trial authority where it is appropriate to try the charge that way; or c) not proceed with the charge.

The bottom line here is that this charge has been reviewed by prosecutors outside the chain of command and have determined that there is a "reasonable likelihood of conviction" and from here forward the decisions are the prosecutor's in consultation with DMP.

The issue of what happens at trial is another one entirely. It appears that here the prosecutor may have received more or new information or made a determination that the charge, even though preferred, ought not to be proceeded with because it was not in the interest of the service to do so and accordingly entered a "stay of proceedings".


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Thank you FJAG I was hoping you would contribute to this.


----------



## Pandora114

http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/news/story/2013/05/17/ns-sailor-cancer-charges-dropped.html

Dropped apparently


----------



## Nfld Sapper

You are more than 4 hrs old with that info.....


----------



## OldSolduer

Thank you FJAG. That was informative . 

For what it's worth, I think someone was a bit hasty with the charge, and given that the member has cancer.....common sense was not a factor in laying a charge.


----------

