# USN Laser and Drone swarms....



## NavyShooter (21 Dec 2021)

Saw an interesting video last evening discussing the USN's use of their fancy new laser on the USS Portland.

Also some VERY interesting discussion about drone swarm encounters off the coast of California in their OP Areas - the question of where the drones come from was left hanging - and it seems from the video as though they are NOT part of an exercise, rather, potentially state actors somehow deploying drones in USN training areas offshore.






Some very interesting info, some really good questions in the comments below the video.

My thoughts - is this an isolated situation?  Was this a US Training exercise with the drones launched from a US ship or aircraft, or were these someone else's drones?  

There's far more questions than answers.

How would/will the RCN deal with this when we encounter drone swarm technologies?  Broad spectrum active jamming will probably work.  

Some things to ponder.


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## dimsum (21 Dec 2021)

NavyShooter said:


> How would/will the RCN deal with this when we encounter drone swarm technologies? Broad spectrum active jamming will probably work.


So will this.


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## Halifax Tar (21 Dec 2021)

dimsum said:


> So will this.
> 
> View attachment 67752



Lol if it works


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## NavyShooter (21 Dec 2021)

1583 rounds in the drum, bursts of 60-200 rounds - maximum of 26 bursts (60 rds), supposing it takes 2-3 bursts to get each drone, you'll only take down 8-10 drones from a swarm...


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Dec 2021)

Airburst ammo is likley more effective, this is staged but give you an idea.


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## Swampbuggy (21 Dec 2021)

NavyShooter said:


> 1583 rounds in the drum, bursts of 60-200 rounds - maximum of 26 bursts (60 rds), supposing it takes 2-3 bursts to get each drone, you'll only take down 8-10 drones from a swarm...


Would something like the 35mm millennium with fragmentation ammunition work better?


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## blacktriangle (22 Dec 2021)

NavyShooter said:


> My thoughts - is this an isolated situation?  Was this a US Training exercise with the drones launched from a US ship or aircraft, or were these someone else's drones?
> 
> There's far more questions than answers.


It could have been testing & evaluation of a defense program, some kind of red team exercise etc...perhaps deployed from a sub/UUV. If it was operations conducted by another state/non-state actor, they obviously have some technical prowess & don't appear too concerned about potential attribution. I can understand how that potentiality would be unsettling to some.

I'm sure all relevant collection is being reviewed by the appropriate stakeholders.


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## NavyShooter (13 Jun 2022)

Drone Swarms That Harassed Navy Ships Off California Demystified In New Documents
					

A major release of documents provides the highest level of detail yet about mysterious drone swarms involving U.S. Navy ships off California.




					www.thedrive.com
				




Additional detail...launched from a Hong Kong based cargo ship apparently.


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## Underway (13 Jun 2022)

For Canada's response, the best anti-drone that we have currently is the 57mm 3P ammunition.  Each burst is about 400m squared of area, and with its rate of fire you can do a 10 round burst a tear a big hole in a drone swarm.

ECM is also a good response, but part of that problem is if you use it then the enemy can figure out how to counter it.  Hard to counter a 57mm.


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## KevinB (13 Jun 2022)

EMP


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## FJAG (13 Jun 2022)

Underway said:


> For Canada's response, the best anti-drone that we have currently is the 57mm 3P ammunition.  Each burst is about 400m squared of area, and with its rate of fire you can do a 10 round burst a tear a big hole in a drone swarm.
> 
> ECM is also a good response, but part of that problem is if you use it then the enemy can figure out how to counter it.  Hard to counter a 57mm.


I'd say one round into the bridge of the mother ship ought to do it.

😉


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## NavyShooter (14 Jun 2022)

FJAG said:


> I'd say one round into the bridge of the mother ship ought to do it.
> 
> 😉


That's what HARPOON is for...

Agree on the 3P solution though - at least on the current platform.  I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of RAMSES type jamming system that'd be available as well though?  Most (commercial) drones operate on a similar frequency band, and jamming that would make a lot of sense.  I cannot foresee them being easily hardened against that sort of countermeasure.


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## Underway (14 Jun 2022)

NavyShooter said:


> That's what HARPOON is for...
> 
> Agree on the 3P solution though - at least on the current platform.  I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of RAMSES type jamming system that'd be available as well though?  Most (commercial) drones operate on a similar frequency band, and jamming that would make a lot of sense.  I cannot foresee them being easily hardened against that sort of countermeasure.


There are drone-specific EW solutions out there that are pretty much as plug and play as run an extension cord and bolt down somewhere.


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## quadrapiper (22 Jun 2022)

Underway said:


> There are drone-specific EW solutions out there that are pretty much as plug and play as run an extension cord and bolt down somewhere.


How much of a challenge would bolting one of those onto a frigate be as far as deconfliction with every other transmitter and receiver?


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## PuckChaser (22 Jun 2022)

Your only deconfliction issues would be if something else in the fleet used a system in the same frequency band, or a harmonic thereof. I have a feeling there's already a ton of self-defense ECM on modern warships so adding in smaller, directional counter UAS systems would not be that much of a hurdle.


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## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2022)

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## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2022)

Related 


















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## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2022)

Tell me again about the need to commit Reserve PYs to the maintenance of 105mm C3 skills?


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## GR66 (25 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Tell me again about the need to commit Reserve PYs to the maintenance of 105mm C3 skills?


Ideally Reserve PYs for Tube Artillery skills (not necessarily C3 skills) as well as Reserve PY's for Precision Strike Artillery skills and Reserve PY's for GBAD skills.  All three are complementary and equally necessary for an effective military.


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## KevinB (25 Nov 2022)

GR66 said:


> Ideally Reserve PYs for Tube Artillery skills (not necessarily C3 skills) as well as Reserve PY's for Precision Strike Artillery skills and Reserve PY's for GBAD skills.  All three are complementary and equally necessary for an effective military.


I’m not sure LRF/PSA or GBAD need (or should be) to be a PRes task. 

Long Range Fires are managed generally higher than Bde, so while PRes could crew launchers and ammunition vehicles, the entire HQ aspect would be regular force. 

GBAD is handled at Bde and Higher - again depending upon platform PRes personnel could crew vehicles/launchers and ammo supply systems - but the C&C for that would be a regular force role.


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## Kirkhill (25 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> I’m not sure LRF/PSA or GBAD need (or should be) to be a PRes task.
> 
> Long Range Fires are managed generally higher than Bde, so while PRes could crew launchers and ammunition vehicles, the entire HQ aspect would be regular force.
> 
> GBAD is handled at Bde and Higher - again depending upon platform PRes personnel could crew vehicles/launchers and ammo supply systems - but the C&C for that would be a regular force role.



I believe you are thinking in army-centric terms.  Not National Defence terms.

Unless I mistake you, you are focused on protecting the manoeuver force.  My focus is on protecting cities, trade and approaches.


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## KevinB (26 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I believe you are thinking in army-centric terms.  Not National Defence terms.
> 
> Unless I mistake you, you are focused on protecting the manoeuver force.  My focus is on protecting cities, trade and approaches.


That’s the Navy, and NORAD. 
   No one is going to buy billions in equipment to give to PRes units that wouldn’t be on alert status, and would not be able to master the equipment anyway.


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> That’s the Navy, and NORAD.


Yup.



KevinB said:


> No one is going to buy billions in equipment to give to PRes units that wouldn’t be on alert status, and would not be able to master the equipment anyway.


Agreed.

So the units need to be on alert and need to master the equipment.

What portion of the staff needs to be full time, what portion can be integrated with the civilian world, what portion can be permanently locally based, what portion can be hired on a part-time, shift-work basis?

It is not obvious to me that all positions need to be uniformed positions that can be relocated according to the needs of the service.  These can be permanent garrisons.


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## Furniture (26 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Yup.
> 
> 
> Agreed.
> ...


To what end though? 

North America is far away, and we have aircraft and ships on standby to scramble to defend the continent from outside attackers. Spending money to defend places that don't need to be defended is wasting money that can be used to keep threats away from the homeland.


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## Kirkhill (26 Nov 2022)

North America is NOT far away.

And the threats are not just ICBMs and Bombers.  

They can be long and short range missiles, ballistic and cruise, locally launched or even locally manufactured.

Already ports, cities and airports have to manage UAVs the same way they manage birds,  as a nuisance.








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## Furniture (26 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> North America is NOT far away.
> 
> And the threats are not just ICBMs and Bombers.
> 
> ...


Realistically, there is no threat to our ports or other key infrastructure that permeant AD batteries would deal with more effectively than intelligence, combined with quick reaction forces like ready duty ships, and fighters. Having actual GBAD would be pretty useful as well, but there is zero realistic need for permeant forces posted to Vancouver, Montreal, Halifax, etc... 

If China parks a flotilla of container ships off Vancouver, and launches cruise missiles from them, your envisioned reserve staffed AD batteries wouldn't be able to recall fast enough to be useful. 

Canada is far better served having mobile capabilities we can deploy to other places, so that the fight doesn't make it to our shores, or if it does, we can move forces rapidly from East to West or vice versa.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> Realistically, there is no threat to our ports or other key infrastructure that permeant AD batteries would deal with more effectively than intelligence, combined with quick reaction forces like ready duty ships, and fighters. Having actual GBAD would be pretty useful as well, but there is zero realistic need for permeant forces posted to Vancouver, Montreal, Halifax, etc...
> 
> If China parks a flotilla of container ships off Vancouver, and launches cruise missiles from them, your envisioned reserve staffed AD batteries wouldn't be able to recall fast enough to be useful.
> 
> Canada is far better served having mobile capabilities we can deploy to other places, so that the fight doesn't make it to our shores, or if it does, we can move forces rapidly from East to West or vice versa.



How about we think instead of a bit of grit in the gears?  Small, understated events that make life difficult.  Not events that bring the universe as we know it to an end but things that discourage investment, insurance underwriters, use of ports.   Things that occur in the grey zone.   Leaky transformers rather than exploding transformers.  Things that can be ascribed to the criminal or even just the incompetent.

We're not looking at defending from a wave of missiles.  We are looking at defending from the death by a thousand cuts.  An unfortunate collision with a UAV on a runway.  A homemade UAV with an IED there.  Perhaps even a disgruntled first nation somewhere else getting ahold of a couple of seacans of missiles.d

I am looking at a 24/7 civvy manned system capable of dealing with the unexpected, small scale event.  But a system that can be uparmed by the addition of more energetic defences that would normally come under the auspices of the DND.  Defences that require professionals on shift work.  Not necessarily engaged for a full year career but perhaps for a limited number of hours per week.


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## Furniture (27 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> How about we think instead of a bit of grit in the gears?  Small, understated events that make life difficult.  Not events that bring the universe as we know it to an end but things that discourage investment, insurance underwriters, use of ports.   Things that occur in the grey zone.   Leaky transformers rather than exploding transformers.  Things that can be ascribed to the criminal or even just the incompetent.
> 
> We're not looking at defending from a wave of missiles.  We are looking at defending from the death by a thousand cuts.  An unfortunate collision with a UAV on a runway.  A homemade UAV with an IED there.  Perhaps even a disgruntled first nation somewhere else getting ahold of a couple of seacans of missiles.d
> 
> I am looking at a 24/7 civvy manned system capable of dealing with the unexpected, small scale event.  But a system that can be uparmed by the addition of more energetic defences that would normally come under the auspices of the DND.  Defences that require professionals on shift work.  Not necessarily engaged for a full year career but perhaps for a limited number of hours per week.


That seems like a lot more expense, and a lot more potential for things to go horribly wrong, than the very remote chance any of the scenarios you propose happen. 

What you're suggesting has strong potential for an IRA655, or MH17... There is a good reason most countries don't have active AD assets running in the civilian airspace as a matter of routine.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2022)

The civil market overlaps with the C-RAM market.  The detection systems are comparable.  The effectors can be graduated.

They can be acoustic or directed thermal for dissuading people and birds, They can be directed jammers.  Or directed high energy lasers.  All short range that are not likely to bring down a passenger liner.

Next level up would be to add auto-cannons to the mix.  Again a short range solution.

Next level up, would be local missiles 

Then you would have theatre missiles controlled by NORAD but locally maintained.






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## GR66 (27 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> How about we think instead of a bit of grit in the gears?  Small, understated events that make life difficult.  Not events that bring the universe as we know it to an end but things that discourage investment, insurance underwriters, use of ports.   Things that occur in the grey zone.   Leaky transformers rather than exploding transformers.  Things that can be ascribed to the criminal or even just the incompetent.
> 
> We're not looking at defending from a wave of missiles.  We are looking at defending from the death by a thousand cuts.  An unfortunate collision with a UAV on a runway.  A homemade UAV with an IED there.  Perhaps even a disgruntled first nation somewhere else getting ahold of a couple of seacans of missiles.d
> 
> I am looking at a 24/7 civvy manned system capable of dealing with the unexpected, small scale event.  But a system that can be uparmed by the addition of more energetic defences that would normally come under the auspices of the DND.  Defences that require professionals on shift work.  Not necessarily engaged for a full year career but perhaps for a limited number of hours per week.


The problem of having a 24/7 manned system that is sitting waiting for a highly unlikely event is that the operators will get bored waiting for an event that seems like it will never come, which inevitably will lead to complacency.  When that surprise event actually does happen the response is quite likely to be ineffective.

That being said I'm fully in favour of Reserves taking on GBAD and LRP Fires roles.  Personally I think these types of high-end and highly impactful capabilities are in many ways a better contribution to any coalition military effort than additional infantry.  

However, to my mind it should be Reg Force Command and Control elements and a small number of Reg Force launch units that can be greatly expanded by a larger number of Reserve launch units that can be mobilized as required (including for guarding domestic facilities if there is a credible threat detected requiring such a response) rather than a 24/7 Reserve capability.


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## KevinB (27 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> The civil market overlaps with the C-RAM market.  The detection systems are comparable.  The effectors can be graduated.


No they aren’t 



Kirkhill said:


> They can be acoustic or directed thermal for dissuading people and birds, They can be directed jammers.  Or directed high energy lasers.  All short range that are not likely to bring down a passenger liner.


Uhm.   Any of those systems that you mention if able to take out a nefariously bend attack drone, at going to do significant damage to a civilian aircraft.   



Kirkhill said:


> Next level up would be to add auto-cannons to the mix.  Again a short range solution.


I’m actually questioning the color of sky in your world at this point.   



Kirkhill said:


> Next level up, would be local missiles



Okay you cannot have any sort of domestic AD capability in an unmanned or low trained method. 



Kirkhill said:


> Then you would have theatre missiles controlled by NORAD but locally maintained.


You’re skipping a lot of range and capability bands - but any active defense is going to be run in conjunction NORAD.  

There is a huge difference in bird bangers for clearing avians from a flight path, and having GBAD bubbles. 




Kirkhill said:


> Rheinmetall Defence - Drone Defence Toolbox
> 
> 
> Rheinmetall Air Defence, building the center of competence for drone defence, offers a modular toolbox which contains a possible solution for all budget sizes to counter this rising threat.
> ...



Nefarious drone issues are a LE issue until they become a National Security threat.   What you are describing is a Presidential type air defense option and that’s not going to fly at all anywhere outside of distinct areas/people.


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## Kirkhill (27 Nov 2022)

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