# Making Combat Clothing Better



## Armymedic (28 Dec 2006)

You see on several Combat Camera photos pockets (finally) with velcro patches being put onto the CADPAT AR shirts.

What alterations are they doing for operations that are making our cbts better?

Is there any plan to manufacture the clothing with these mods?


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## boondocksaint (28 Dec 2006)

Rumour has it those pockets will eventually be on our regular cbts as well. They sure do come in handy, as to other mods, I dont know.


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## PhilB (28 Dec 2006)

I think the pockets are the only mods done, at least thats all my combats had done to them. I LOVE the arm pockets, if I were to make improvements I would suggest ditching the bottom pockets on the combat shirt. I also dont feel that the waist draw string is worth the time either. I like how the american combats have the sort of bellowed design in the back. I found that the draw string got pushed into me over my armour and was uncomfortable. There are tons of other weird gucci mods that can be made ala crye precision but I think the above mods would make the shirt much more comfortable and functional especially under armour.


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## Elwood (29 Dec 2006)

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1557

It seems the makers of CADPAT are open for suggestions...


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## Armymedic (29 Dec 2006)

Elwood said:
			
		

> http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1557
> 
> It seems the makers of CADPAT are open for suggestions...


Thru the chain of command. I believe that has been done once or twice...no?


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## geo (29 Dec 2006)

submit unsatisfactory condition reports for existing kit.....


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## Sig_Des (29 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> submit unsatisfactory condition reports for existing kit.....



Think I could do it that for an LS?  ;D


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## geo (29 Dec 2006)

stand in line with everyone else on the UCR for LSVWs

then again, UCRs for the LSVWs were submitted, by the thousands, years and years ago.  The gov't decided they undestood the problem better than we did.


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## alfie (29 Dec 2006)

Just a note about velcro, we used to have a web belt with velcro worked great except for noise. Now imagine your on a recce or other quiet required task and you need something in the pocket. I much prefer buttons. As to the draw string I remember a buddy who flipped a duece & 1/2 when we got to him he was hanging out the door with his string hloding him up, lucklily it wasn't around his neck. The lower pockets agree on the shirt the jacket ones are good for holding an extra pair of socks unfolded or bivy paper as long as they aren't loaded up like a back pack I would keep them.


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## Franko (29 Dec 2006)

PhilB said:
			
		

> I LOVE the arm pockets, if I were to make improvements I would suggest ditching the bottom pockets on the combat shirt. I also dont feel that the waist draw string is worth the time either.



In the early 90's there was a batch made without the lower pockets and they were trialed extensively.

It was deemed at that time to keep them on the combat shirts.

I do however like the idea of arm pockets. Wish we had them back in Feb.

Regards


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## RHFC_piper (29 Dec 2006)

Just wanted to clairfy:
The pockets on the arms of our AR CADPAT uniforms are, indeed, Mods.  When we arrived in Kandahar, we were told to submit 2 combat shirts for alterations. They were taken to shop on the board walk where the velcro pockets from inside the lower large pockets were removed and sewn onto the sleeves. This was done becasue it is hard to get into your pockets when you have a body armour on (an idea stolen borrowed from the Americans)... and since we (guys out side the wire) wear our body armour all the time (except first thing in the morning, when sleeping in Panjwaii... just before an A10 hits you... damn it) It only made sense to have pockets on the sleeves.

Personally, I found them fairly useless... cool looking, but hard to get into, as they were hastily made, with way too much velcro on the flaps... and too high up..  its pretty hard to reach across your body with armour on.

Anyway... it would be nice if they put that on all of our combats, but I doubt that will happen.


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## PhilB (29 Dec 2006)

I found them really easy to get into, but our were made by a tailor that was brought into the PRT so maybe there was a difference. As far as the other things go its a toss up, like everything else. Combats are just that, clothing that should be designed for combat. I dont think there will be anytime in the future where we will not be operating in body armour, and it is only a matter of time before there is enough armour for it to be standard issue and thus used in training. Lower pockets are useless with armour on, draw string is useless with armour on. Shoulder pockets need to be velcro because it would be a huge hassel to reach across your amour and plates and have to undo a button. If you are on a recce or some other sneaky peaky job dont put essential stuff in those pockets, put them in your vest or in your leg pockets


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## geo (29 Dec 2006)

alfie.... velcro made lots of noise @ first.... then it would wear out & you'd be miles away before noticing that your water bottle dissapeared from same said web.

The velcro is better now, still noisy but, it"s just one of the truths of life.


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## NL_engineer (29 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> alfie.... velcro made lots of noise @ first.... then it would wear out & you'd be miles away before noticing that your water bottle dissapeared from same said web.



Zap Straps, they solve most kit problems  ;D


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## George Wallace (29 Dec 2006)

Actually Alfie, that velcro webbing was crap.  It needed gun tap to keep it together.  It became a knotted pile of junk when taken off and stowed in a vehicle.  It was uncomfortable when loaded.  When it was finally replaced in '85, it was a God send to have a wider yoke on the harness, and clips to keep your pouches and yoke attached securely.  Too bad there was too much plastic in both styles.


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## RHFC_piper (29 Dec 2006)

Re. noisy velcro:

LAVIII's make more noise than velcro. As do C7s and C9s... They know we're there... it's hard to be quiet in body armour and 40lbs. of ammo and gear. 

People in the business of being sneaky should know how not to make noise with their gear and usually would not wear anything that would compromise their sneakiness... At least I hope, anyway.

What PhilB said is very true; We will never be in an operational situation where we won't be wearing body armour while fighting (this could lead me into a whole long rant regarding training - both regular and reserve -, Drills, kit, etc. etc... but I won't) And our combats _*should*_ reflect that... but they don't.

Draw strings, pockets on the body, etc. are useless when you have a ballistic plate on, and thusly, our combats have to be modified to suit... but what about those who don't always wear ballistic plates?  I say T.S.  (tethered swimming for the non-cursing types).  It all comes down to operational priority.

To 'sum up'... Pockets on sleeves = good idea, but needs more development and use.  Velcro sounds don't matter when you roll up in LAVs (or other mech). and as with a lot of our other gear (TVs) our combat shirts have many useless aspects to couple with the usefull ones.
[/rant]


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## Infanteer (29 Dec 2006)

I've always wondered why the hell our combat shirts have a collar?  Why not have something functional that can cover the neck and keep shit from getting down your shirt or something - I think the new American uniforms are like this....

As for boots (it is part of the uniform) a standard, dark brown boot would have been nice; better than issuing 4-6 pairs of boots to guys.


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## RHFC_piper (29 Dec 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I've always wondered why the hell our combat shirts have a collar?  Why not have something functional that can cover the neck and keep crap from getting down your shirt or something - I think the new American uniforms are like this....
> 
> As for boots (it is part of the uniform) a standard, dark brown boot would have been nice; better than issuing 4-6 pairs of boots to guys.



INDEPENDENT THOUGHT ALARM!!!                                            INDEPENDENT THOUGHT ALARM!!!

Both are very good ideas... which is why, I'm afraid, they will never happen.

It would be nice though... usefull collars and boots and stuff... jeez...  stop dreaming..


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## KevinB (29 Dec 2006)

Uhm -- maybe go for a flame retardant uniform.
The melted pile of goo just does not do it for me...


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## MPSHIELD (29 Dec 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I've always wondered why the hell our combat shirts have a collar?  Why not have something functional that can cover the neck and keep crap from getting down your shirt or something - I think the new American uniforms are like this...



Yes I agree, I like the "Mandarin" collar option. The new ACU uniform the US has has the option of Collar up or down. I think this would be a real benefit to our uniform. It would keep some of the elements from getting down your shirt and possibly help the "chafing" or rubbing on your neck from the Frag vest. I'm going to re-adjust my vest. Maybe that's the problem.

Just a though.


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## Lerch (29 Dec 2006)

MPSHIELD said:
			
		

> ..It would keep some of the elements from getting down your shirt and possibly help the "chafing" or rubbing on your neck from the Frag vest...


I can't recall where (I think it was the US Army website) and it said that the Mandarin collar was designed to protect the neck while wearing the Interceptor OTV.


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## Good2Golf (29 Dec 2006)

MPSHIELD said:
			
		

> Yes I agree, I like the "Mandarin" collar option. The new ACU uniform the US has has the option of Collar up or down. I think this would be a real benefit to our uniform. It would keep some of the elements from getting down your shirt and possibly help the "chafing" or rubbing on your neck from the Frag vest. I'm going to re-adjust my vest. Maybe that's the problem.
> 
> Just a though.



MPS, great idea, like Infanteer noted.  Sadly, it won't likely happen...I worked to get a mandarin collar put on next gen of Cdn FR flying gear and it was not implemented -- either through laziness or staffers thinking they know better than operators (especially those ops who staffed previously and knew very well the challenges the new crop of staffers faced, BTW) but it didn't get done.  I think the diag upper arm pocket (which WAS modelled after the US ACU's) is a great idea!  Hopefully we'll have success on getting it put on the next, next, next gen of flying gear... :

G2G


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## MPSHIELD (12 Jan 2007)

Lerch said:
			
		

> I can't recall where (I think it was the US Army website) and it said that the Mandarin collar was designed to protect the neck while wearing the Interceptor OTV.



Lerch-You are correct. It is for OTV. I believe the Madarin collar concept would also work out for our Gen 4 Vest. But as Good2Golf  said, it probbaly won't happen.

We can dream can't we?


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## medaid (12 Jan 2007)

hmmm the Americans put quite alot of thought into the desing of their ACU. Would any one like to build a similar design in CADPAT just to try it out in the field and tell us how it feels?


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## Bergeron 971 (12 Jan 2007)

I could implement the idea's of the ACU into cadpat fabric. of course we'd need the cdn style chest pockets,
I like the single mag pouch on the side of the calf. A couple of my friends asked me to get some AR Cadpat and make them some before they ship out, I haven't had the time to go t o Mtl to pick up some cadpat yet.

And from the pictures I've seen in the Stan, they Velcro on the pocket for IR tabs, what every is like, 2 x 4 inch or something. 
On mod's I do for friends I used the US style standards, 4 x 4, more space for other stuff. 

As for the arm pockets, I've made them with both Velcro and bottons, its hard to explain, but if you wanted silence, you would  flip an extra piece of Velcro stopping it from being velcro'd shut and you would use the bottons instead.

The Mandarin collar I've done on one Cadpat tunic, and over 15 US woodland tunics. The still look good for garrison when flipped down. and look even better in the bush when flipped up and in use.

Another thing that the ACU has that wasn't mentioned are the slots for padding in the elbows and knees, I have a set of ACU but haven't trying the padding yet,

I like the ACU as it give alot of space for personal choices on how you can wear it.

The lower pockets of the cadpat tunic has come up as well between friends. Some just choose to tuck the tunic in their pants when using the tac vest.

The string in the middle, I don't understand how it could get uncomfortable under gear? I like that string, But I'll have a look with body armour.


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## Yeoman (12 Jan 2007)

medtech; I do believe there's a company out there that makes this uniform in cadpat. I have seen it before.
if I can find the website later on tonight, I'll pass it along.
I just don't feel like wasting money on something that I know the coc will never let me use.
Greg


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## MPSHIELD (12 Jan 2007)

> I do believe there's a company out there that makes this uniform in cadpat. I have seen it before.



Daves sells shirt similar to it. Not sure on who makes them.

Bergeron 971 -Do you have any photos of the CADPAT modification that you have done, more specifically the madarin collar Mod?

Thanks in advance


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## medaid (12 Jan 2007)

Hey Yeoman and TAC MP, ya Daves gets alot of them made in that style, they modeled it however after the Cry Multicam uniforms. I think they're made by Frontenac. I've seen them, they arent made with very high quality fabric though. The fabric is rough and nothing like the clothe we use for our issued uniforms. 

Yeoman: Ya I understand what you mean by spending their own $ and I whole heartedly agree with you. However, there are such a drastic down falls between what we're issued and what's needed overseas...well we cant help but spend something of our own sometimes right?  ;D


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## Bergeron 971 (12 Jan 2007)

No I do not have pics of the Cantonese collar on cadpat, I can however take pics of a US woodland tunic I have.

this is a Frontenac tunic I've been playing with for a while when I'm Bird. As most of you know the Frontenac tunics look nothing like this.
I made CF style chest pockets, Made a epaulet for the chest which isn't sewn on yet,
I also added  the arm pockets with Velcro. if you see one side there is Velcro for a name tape on the left which is covered by a cadpat patch to hide the Velcro when not in use.
I plan to do the same for the arm pocket Velcro.


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## PhilB (12 Jan 2007)

of all of the things to spend your money on before deploying new combat shirts are not it. A) you will most likely not be allowed to use them b) now that there are pockets on the issued AR combats there is not much wrong with them. Yes they could definitely be better but they arent that bad. c) there is a lot of kit that is "that bad" that IMHO should be bought over combats. YMMV


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## Yeoman (12 Jan 2007)

eh you just need pockets on the sleeves, spots for velcro on there as well and you're pretty much gtg. 
even I think going out and getting something like that is a bit too far (and you're talking to a kitwhore)
Greg


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## PhilB (12 Jan 2007)

Couldn't agree more, and I also am a kit whore. If I was going to spend any money on uniform stuff it would be for a shirt like this http://www.cryeprecision.com/product1.asp?P=CS1 

At the same time it is easy to modify a shirt with an underarmour tshirt to this design.


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## MPSHIELD (12 Jan 2007)

With regards to sewing pockets on the sleeves, RHFC_piper  said you turn in a a few sets of shirts to get pockets sewn onto them once you arrive. Any idea as to how long it takes? What is the turn around? 

Just curious


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## PhilB (12 Jan 2007)

We turned them in by organization 2 shirts at a time, it was about a 2 day turn around to get them back. I would think though that ,soonish, shirts will be issued with pockets as more troops turn in shirts with pockets already on them.


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## Bergeron 971 (12 Jan 2007)

haha, must have forgot to post the link.

http://www.pbase.com/cdn_airsoft_regiment/unit_stores__protecorp_shop


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## PhilB (12 Jan 2007)

are you serious   ? airsoft   ? really   ? wow!

 :


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## MPSHIELD (12 Jan 2007)

Phil B-Thanks for the answer! I will be heading over early Feb. We were told by several sources to try to get the pockets done before we leave but no base tailor would do it. Oh well. 



> I would think though that ,soonish, shirts will be issued with pockets as more troops turn in shirts with pockets already on them.



You would think that. The brand new AR sets i was issued don't have them on yet. Oh well.


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## PhilB (12 Jan 2007)

ours were done by the local tailor on the boardwalk, we got them done a month or so after we got in theater. If you want to get them done before I'm sure you could just take it to any local, off base, seamstress. All that they do is take the inner pockets of both lower out and sew them onto the sleeves, then trow velcro on top. Not hard to do.


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## RangerRay (12 Jan 2007)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> In the early 90's there was a batch made without the lower pockets and they were trialed extensively.
> 
> It was deemed at that time to keep them on the combat shirts.
> 
> ...



I remember those shirts.  I believe that they did not have the drawcord in the middle either, and were designed to be tucked in.  Apparently, that part didn't make it to most of the troops that were issued them because they usually wore them untucked and looked pregnant as a result!  The one time I did see someone wearing that shirt tucked in, it actually looked pretty good.  I often wondered if the webbing fit more comfortably on with that shirt tuck in.

Even with the old OD shirt, I found those lower pockets to be a pain when wearing the old '85 webbing.


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## mysteriousmind (13 Jan 2007)

I thnk arm-pocket could be usefull, but depending on the size of the pocket and the trade.

Don't get me wrong, but for some trade It would be pretty useless to my opinion, and for other it would be so great.


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## geo (13 Jan 2007)

Those Mark II combat shirts died a relatively eary death

No fanfare was made when they were put into the supply network so soldiers showing up in QM for a replacement shirt got the pocketless / tuck into your pants kind of shirts for the 1st time.... 

All it took was an RSM at CTC Gagetown to a few of them on one of his parades one day....

"What is that?"
"Send em back?"

So a bunch of the boys went to QM and asked for "standard" "normal" shirts.


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## Sig_Des (13 Jan 2007)

PhilB said:
			
		

> are you serious   ? airsoft   ? really   ? wow!
> 
> :



AHAHAHA!

The Canadian Airsoft Regiment rears it's head once again....I'm assuming you're Captain Sonic...heheheh


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## Bergeron 971 (13 Jan 2007)

HAHA, I guess you play curling? Ya, I'm the capt of my team. You going to laugh at me now, how about we keep the the subject instead of personal attacks and insults and stop the thread jaking .


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## Ex-Dragoon (13 Jan 2007)

Is this going to be another topic that will have to be locked?


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## Sig_Des (13 Jan 2007)

Heheh, I'm still giggling, but I'll be good Ex-D, I promise....

I personally would just be happy with the arm pockets, and I'd like to see better and more Pen slots in the pockets, something like is on the inside of the breast pocket of the Gore-tex Jacket.


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I personally would just be happy with the arm pockets, and personally, I like to see better and more Pen slots in the pockets, something like is on the inside of the breast pocket of the Gore-tex Jacket.



Pen slots?  ;D Good idea. Although I'm sure the infantry guys have some higher priority requirements for our shirts!!


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## Sig_Des (13 Jan 2007)

I'm sure, but from personal experience, people are always digging around for a pen...and if you get an order to move to whatever grid or get an order for fire support at a certain grid, a quick-access pen is always good to record the GR.


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## boehm (13 Jan 2007)

+1

Pen slots inside a covered pocket on the arm would be mighty useful for certain trades. I loose pens all the time in the field and it is mighty annoying.


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## medaid (13 Jan 2007)

PhilB said:
			
		

> Couldn't agree more, and I also am a kit *****. If I was going to spend any money on uniform stuff it would be for a shirt like this http://www.cryeprecision.com/product1.asp?P=CS1
> 
> At the same time it is easy to modify a shirt with an underarmour tshirt to this design.



Daves Army Surplus has one in CADPAT if you want it


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## George Wallace (13 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Pen slots?  ;D Good idea. Although I'm sure the infantry guys have some higher priority requirements for our shirts!!



The guys are right Vern.  There is nothing more annoying than loosing pens and markers to the bottom of the turret when you need one.  And you need more than one slot, as we use Red, Blue and Black most of the time and Green and Yellow, not to mention the pencil at other times.......then there are the Mini Maglites.

Map Pockets are another story.


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The guys are right Vern.  There is nothing more annoying than loosing pens and markers to the bottom of the turret when you need one.  And you need more than one slot, as we use Red, Blue and Black most of the time and Green and Yellow, not to mention the pencil at other times.......then there are the Mini Maglites.
> 
> Map Pockets are another story.



Oh I know, for I am a trained quiller.

I'm just saying that some others may have some higher priority mods to make first.


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## RangerRay (13 Jan 2007)

Now here's a suggestion...don't shoot me!

Develop a combat shirt that is fitted with no pockets designed to be worn with body armour and/or tactical vests, and worn exclusively for field exercises and combat operations...

And for garrison, have a uniform khaki "dress" shirt with breast pockets, collar, epaulettes, etc., to be worn with the combat pants.  The shirt could be made of a poly/cotton blend that does not require ironing if taken from the dryer right away, like my civy uniform shirts.  Kinda like the old garrison dress, but more practical.

 Ok, I got my flame-retardent suit on! :flame:


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

Sorry RR,

That would make sense. It'll never fly.


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## RangerRay (13 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Sorry RR,
> 
> That would make sense. It'll never fly.



Wow...here I thought it was so irrational, only a general would like it!  ;D


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> Wow...here I thought it was so irrational, only a general would like it!  ;D



I'm pretty sure that there is another thread where something much like your below suggestion was bantered about. One uniform type for operational purposes; and another for garrison.


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## PhilB (13 Jan 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Daves Army Surplus has one in CADPAT if you want it



Medtech I have looked on their website but cant find anything like that. Do you have a link, or is this something you saw in store? Do they have it in AR and if so any idea how much?


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## mysteriousmind (13 Jan 2007)

If I remember correctly..there were a similar situation a few years ago...one dress for garnison...and one Field uniform (green olive combat).

The coat was green camo..and the boots looked like  US para boots or something a like that....it did not last long...and if my memory is accurate...it was time were there were the beige summer uniform...

correct me if I'm wrong but I was not in the system at that time...


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly..there were a similar situation a few years ago...one dress for garnison...and one Field uniform (green olive combat).
> 
> The coat was green camo..and the boots looked like  US para boots or something a like that....it did not last long...and if my memory is accurate...it was time were there were the beige summer uniform...
> 
> correct me if I'm wrong but I was not in the system at that time...



Obviously not. That was a over a decade ago!! You speak of the 'duck hunter' garrison jacket and the garrison boots, back in the time of tan DEUs and SSF boots. Early 90s mein freund.


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## RangerRay (13 Jan 2007)

I guess what I was proposing was a more practical form of the old garrison dress, but without the high maintenance of the old one.  Use the CADPAT trousers, with a "wash n' wear" khaki uniform shirt, and the issued combat boots...and when colder, wear with the sweater and/or combat jacket.  No ironing or spit-polishing required!

Anyways, I hope I'm not getting this thread off topic!  It is half of the solution to adopting a purely practical combat shirt, that may not be suitable to garrison.


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## George Wallace (13 Jan 2007)

RangerRay

Why don't we just forget that idea all together and stick with what we got; an easily maintained uniform.  Not Two.  Not three.  Not Four different dresses for Garrison.  Just the ONE we have now for Garrison and Field.

If you are worried about getting dirty, then put on your issued COVERALS.


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## mysteriousmind (13 Jan 2007)

I personaly like to wear the combat...for the use i have done with it is quite all right...but then again a CIC officer does not use it as much as you reg or res people.

One thing I would like (call this a male-ish thing) is that when my sleeves are rolled up...it would be great to have the a little less tight..for the bicep...but...it is more of a personnal preference...they slack ok afer a certain time.


 :-\


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## MPSHIELD (13 Jan 2007)

As this thread is about Making Combat clothes better, I will post this info. Our Fleece, as far as I know is part of our Combat clothing. I know someone who got the pants issued so I take it these "upgrades" have been done and are in the system.

I take it we will have to wait until our "older version" Fleece wears out.

Enjoy


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

Your cited pic is from LFTEU's site.

Trials & Evaluations, not quite in the system; just getting trialled and evaluated with those particluar mods. That step comes long before any official changes are made to the design, if approved, and passed on to the contractor after modification of the Mil/Contract specs.


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## MPSHIELD (13 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Your cited pic is from LFTEU's site.
> 
> Trials & Evaluations, not quite in the system; just getting trialled and evaluated with those particluar mods. That step comes long before any official changes are made to the design, if approved, and passed on to the contractor after modification of the Mil/Contract specs.



Librarian-You are the resident expert so you know more than me, but I swear he had the modified pants. It had the zipper bottom. Perhaps he lucked out or it was issued to him by mistake. He did get them out of Gagetown Clothing so who knows! 8)


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

TAC MP said:
			
		

> Librarian-You are the resident expert so you know more than me, but I swear he had the modified pants. It had the zipper bottom. Perhaps he lucked out or it was issued to him by mistake. He did get them out of Gagetown Clothing so who knows! 8)



Funny that. Gagetown, trial, LFTEU's home base. I'd suggest that it's highly likely then that you did see the modified pants...on one of the members performing the trials.


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## RangerRay (13 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> RangerRay
> 
> Why don't we just forget that idea all together and stick with what we got; an easily maintained uniform.  Not Two.  Not three.  Not Four different dresses for Garrison.  Just the ONE we have now for Garrison and Field.
> 
> If you are worried about getting dirty, then put on your issued COVERALS.



Well, I'll admit that it was a brainstorm on my part and not well thought out, but my idea was not to have completely different uniforms, but just different shirts for different functions.  One to make the troops happy in the field, and one to make the RSMs happy in garrison.  It just seems to me that according to what some are saying here, the current combat shirt is a compromise of the two functions, and doesn't work well for either.


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## Wes_Robinson (28 Jan 2007)

just curious, i know its off topic but whats the NSN for the dark coveralls the boarding party are using on the left coast as seen below. 
cheers


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## 284_226 (28 Jan 2007)

Wes_Robinson said:
			
		

> just curious, i know its off topic but whats the NSN for the dark coveralls the boarding party are using on the left coast as seen below.
> cheers



Couldn't tell you the NSN, but the sailor is wearing an HMCS Montreal ball cap, which isn't left coast, it's east coast.


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## armyvern (28 Jan 2007)

Wes_Robinson said:
			
		

> just curious, i know its off topic but whats the NSN for the dark coveralls the boarding party are using on the left coast as seen below.
> cheers



SN for which size?


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## Wes_Robinson (28 Jan 2007)

lol your right, my mistake, any one have any info about the coveralls?
cheers


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## armyvern (28 Jan 2007)

Wes_Robinson said:
			
		

> lol your right, my mistake, any one have any info about the coveralls?
> cheers



You asked for a SN. I asked which size as each has it's own.


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## Wes_Robinson (28 Jan 2007)

7336


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## Wes_Robinson (28 Jan 2007)

yeah, i was typing a respones as your came up, bad timing on my part.
cheers


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## armyvern (28 Jan 2007)

Pas de problemo. Now, why do you want to know??  >

Monday, at work.


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## Wes_Robinson (28 Jan 2007)

there nice and simple and user friendly for paint ball, im just not interested in all that high tech gucci, lcf paint ball gear, just some simple and undistinctive.
cheers


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## armyvern (28 Jan 2007)

Well,

I can tell you right now that if you're looking to get them for paintball...you're S.O.O.L.


----------



## Wes_Robinson (28 Jan 2007)

kinda figured, just hoping that there could be some in some surplus store, thought maybe havin the NSN it would be easier to track them down.
cheers


----------



## armyvern (28 Jan 2007)

Oh,

I'm quite sure they'll hit e-bay if they're not there already.  :

Just realize that if you do get a set off e-bay, you will be purchasing from, and thus supporting either:

1) a liar; or
2) a thief.


----------



## Wes_Robinson (28 Jan 2007)

lol, yeah true, just kinda effy on buying cf gear from ebay, i trust a surplus store alittle bit more. would you happen to know the actual maker brand, make, model etc.
cheers


----------



## JSR OP (28 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Funny that. Gagetown, trial, LFTEU's home base. I'd suggest that it's highly likely then that you did see the modified pants...on one of the members performing the trials.




I was just issued my second set of fleece before heading over to the sandbox.  The pants have the zippers on the legs, but the top appears to be the same as my other one.
I got them in Kingston.


----------



## armyvern (28 Jan 2007)

Yes indeed, over to the sandbox as part of TF1-07. A 2RCR Gagetown tour.


----------



## Trogdor (29 Jan 2007)

Dose anyone else find that the combat shirts have sleves that are kinda short compared to the torso?  I mean I have a normal body type but I find that my shirt fits perfectly length and width wise on my chest but that the arms are too short.  They look find when my arms are hanging straight down.  But if I have to salute or bring my weapon up I find the cuffs get pulled back and annoy the crap out of me.  I would love to see the kind of sleves the US Army have on their ACU combats.  There is pleeting on the back of the shoulders so the arms can go with your arm and not get pulled back.


----------



## Sig_Des (29 Jan 2007)

Wolfe117 said:
			
		

> Dose anyone else find that the combat shirts have sleves that are kinda short compared to the torso?  I mean I have a normal body type but I find that my shirt fits perfectly length and width wise on my chest but that the arms are too short.  They look find when my arms are hanging straight down.  But if I have to salute or bring my weapon up I find the cuffs get pulled back and annoy the crap out of me.  I would love to see the kind of sleves the US Army have on their ACU combats.  There is pleeting on the back of the shoulders so the arms can go with your arm and not get pulled back.



I have the same problem. I guess it's something common to tall lanky bastards like me.

From my understanding, but Vern can confirm, that sleeve length is based on the chest size, so that long monkey-armed freaks like myself are SOL.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2007)

Sig_des, I stand to be corrected (especially by The Librarian  ;D ), but I'm pretty sure the "height designator" of a shirt (e.g. 7340, the 73 denotes +/- inches of height of the wearer) affects the torso size AND the relative sleeve length.  My legs are a fair bit of my body length, but I still need "taller" shirts/jackets (73##, sometimes a 76##) because of my orangutan arms...

G2G


----------



## Sig_Des (29 Jan 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Sig_des, I stand to be corrected (especially by The Librarian  ;D ), but I'm pretty sure the "height designator" of a shirt (e.g. 7340, the 73 denotes +/- inches of height of the wearer) affects the torso size AND the relative sleeve length.  My legs are a fair bit of my body length, but I still need "taller" shirts/jackets (73##, sometimes a 76##) because of my orangutan arms...
> 
> G2G



I could be mixing up the designators... either way, I know your pain. Damn our monkey-arms...but, I'd love to hear from the voice of experience (I always do)..oh where oh where is the amazing, all-knowing, intelligent Librarian?


----------



## armyvern (29 Jan 2007)

G2G's correct on the height designations. 64/67/70/73/76/79 all designate the height. Followed by 26/28/30/32/34/36/38 etc on up to 52 which designate the waist or chest size dependant upon which garment we are speaking of.

Guys, my sleeves are a tad bit too long when my arms are at the attention position, but when I salute my sleeve also pulls down to my wrist, as does my tunic sleeve. It's just one of those laws of nature.

Put on any of your civvy dress shirts and salute in them...the same thing will happen.


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Put on any of your civvy dress shirts and salute in them...the same thing will happen.



But I wouldn't be wearing any headress, can I still salute? ???


----------



## armyvern (29 Jan 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> But I wouldn't be wearing any headress, can I still salute? ???



As long as you are at home and looking in the mirror...I'm good with that!!  ;D


----------



## Sig_Des (29 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> As long as you are at home and looking in the mirror...I'm good with that!!  ;D



But I don't hold a commission..I can't salute myself


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> But I don't hold a commission..I can't salute myself



And even if you were, it's not like you'd salute an officer of equal rank!  For some reason, I now have the image of the cat getting fluffed up and hissing at its own image in a mirror.  ???

G2G


----------



## armyvern (29 Jan 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> But I don't hold a commission..I can't salute myself



Boys, for the last time, I don't care what you do with your arms in the privacy of your own homes. Look in the mirror, salute, and prove it to yourselves!!  ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (29 Jan 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> And even if you were, it's not like you'd salute an officer of equal rank!  For some reason, I now have the image of the cat getting fluffed up and hissing at its own image in a mirror.  ???
> 
> G2G


Sometimes you do salute officers of equal rank: eg captains saluting the Adjutant.  

but, I digress...what you do at home in front of the mirror is between you and, well, the man in the mirror


----------



## Haggis (29 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Put on any of your civvy dress shirts and salute in them...the same thing will happen.



OK.  I've got a full length mirror in my room so I tried it.  You're right, Vern.  However I was compelled to give myself 5 extras for saluting the Sergeant Major (I shoulda known better.  I knew he'd catch me!)

Geez!!!


----------



## Sig_Des (29 Jan 2007)

Haggis said:
			
		

> OK.  I've got a full length mirror in my room so I tried it.  You're right, Vern.  However I was compelled to give myself 5 extras for saluting the Sergeant Major (I shoulda known better.  I knew he'd catch me!)
> 
> Geez!!!



Heh...reminds me of a time on basic when the staff looked at one kid on inspection and didn't even bother...just said "Jack yourself up in front of that mirror." Hilarity ensued.


----------



## armyvern (29 Jan 2007)

> OK.  I've got a full length mirror in my room so I tried it.  You're right, Vern.  However I was compelled to give myself 5 extras for saluting the Sergeant Major (I shoulda known better.  I knew he'd catch me!)



Gawd,

You're killing me. 5 extras? For some reason, I believe you!!

At least you are a man who listened ... and learned!!  >


----------



## Shamrock (30 Jan 2007)

I was told that if I don't stop saluting myself I'd go blind.


----------



## Lerch (30 Jan 2007)

A few days back I was mending my jeans and thought I'd give a try and sew a mandarin collar onto my shirt. Worked out pretty well and it's reversible..I'll take pictures later.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (8 Mar 2007)

Interesting to note what the US Marines are now adopting as their operational combat uniform:


----------



## GAP (8 Mar 2007)

Wonder how that's going to work out at 50 C, with all the other gear on top...


----------



## Matt_Fisher (8 Mar 2007)

Probably no worse than wearing the current Marine Corps Combat Utility Uniform, as with that setup, the Marine is wearing his blouse (combat shirt for the uninitiated), and then body armour and 782 gear (tac-vest/webbing).  If anything, the FROG setup will result in a cooler and drier Marine given the lighter weight and better moisture management ability of this garment than the NyCo utility blouse.

The FROG 2 hybrid shirt was inspired by this shirt originally developed for the US Army's Future Force Warrior program by Crye Associates.  









For the US Marine's FROG program Crye collaborated with driFIRE (which CP Gear carries...shamelss plug) to do a Marine Corps specific version.  Incidentally, Crye is now using driFIRE on their commercially available Combat Shirt.

From what I understand, driFIRE was not chosen as the material for the FROG ensemble.  However there are some unanswered questions regarding the chosen fabric's ability/inability to match the performance of driFIRE and several other fabrics which were submitted in regard to flame retardancy and moisture wicking.


----------



## KevinB (8 Mar 2007)

Matt - looks like the USMC is really taking the lessons learned to heart.  Impressive setup


----------



## a_majoor (8 Mar 2007)

Slight diversion about the heat issue:

NASCAR drivers wear a cooling vest which runs cold water through a series of thin tubes to keep the driver comfortable and alert in the hot confines of the car. (NASA astronauts have something similar to wear in space suits). Assuming a small and reliable pump can be incorporated into the vest, and venting the heat into a Camelback or similar hydration system (yes, that will suck when you drink, but otherwise the soldier will need a large radiator sticking out of his back) should allow a fully armoured and kitted soldier to operate more effectively.

On the down side, that translates to more kit, more batteries or energy, more weight....

The ancient Greeks wore about 35Kg of bronze body armour, but had their servents and personal slaves put on the armour just before the battle commenced (using the time during rituals, speeches and other pre battle activity which Greeks used by mutual convention). Romans were innured to wearing armour because it was "dress of the day" every day.

There don't seem to be many good solutions to the heat problem


----------



## Big Red (8 Mar 2007)

Looks awsome.  Can't wait to get issued a set by Mr. Jack Daniels once this stuff hits theatre. ;D


----------



## PhilB (8 Mar 2007)

I really like the idea of the crye esque shirt. Would it be possible for any Cadpat dealer to produce such a beast in AR?


----------



## medaid (8 Mar 2007)

That's extremely smart... I cant believe we havent thought of that yet... wait.. I can.. I remembered that our uniforms are designed by CTS.... *sigh* oh well... I guess I'll have to find some nice marines to trade with...


----------



## Matt_Fisher (8 Mar 2007)

PhilB said:
			
		

> I really like the idea of the crye esque shirt. Would it be possible for any Cadpat dealer to produce such a beast in AR?



That's a tough one, as the the torso material wouldn't be that hard (there are commercially available FR rated fabrics in suitable colours), but FR Cadpat material for the sleeves and shoulders isn't available.  :-(
If you were to do it out of the 'Combat Cloth' or 'Canadian Twill' fabrics, you wouldn't be achieving the same levels of fire retardancy as the Marine's FROG uniform, although that doesn't seem to stop Crye from building and marketing their Combat Shirt using the US NyCo material, which isn't FR rated.   Although it wouldn't be any worse in terms of performance than the issued combat shirt or trousers, and a heck of a lot better in terms of heat and moisture management, as well as functionality. 

Hmmm, this is one I'm going to have to ponder for awhile.


----------



## KevinB (8 Mar 2007)

How hard is it to get Nomex /Aramid material made in certain patterns?


----------



## Matt_Fisher (8 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> How hard is it to get Nomex /Aramid material made in certain patterns?



Depends on how much you're willing to put your money into it.  Probably looking at a 100K investment for a minimum production run of some 5000 metres.


----------



## niner domestic (8 Mar 2007)

Matt, just out of curiousity, do you know what is the double rub rating for CADPAT and whether the combined materials are matched for the double rub rating? And, do you know how many washings the fire retardant will withstand before it breaks down?


----------



## Loachman (8 Mar 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> How hard is it to get Nomex /Aramid material made in certain patterns?


It's being done in TW and AR for Tac Hell two-piece flying suits. Not issue yet, but I've seen trial versions so it can't be more than a decade away.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (8 Mar 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Matt, just out of curiousity, do you know what is the double rub rating for CADPAT and whether the combined materials are matched for the double rub rating? And, do you know how many washings the fire retardant will withstand before it breaks down?



That would depend on the specific material.  Some materials that are printed in Cadpat, such as Cordura nylon which has a much tolerance to abrasion, than something else, like the Combat Cloth which has a much lower tolerance.
Also, it depends on the type of FR material.  FR Cotton, for instance relies on a chemical treatment for its flame retardant characteristics, which can be diminished over time through launderings and environmental exposure.  Other fabrics, such as Kermel, Nomex, modacrylics (such as driFIRE), or CarbonX are inherently flame retardant due to the characteristics of their physical and chemical makeup.  I do know that Nomex in certain material compositions has a tendency to pill quite badly, but I think that newer processes of milling the material have reduced that issue significantly.


----------



## PhilB (8 Mar 2007)

I am personally more interested in the heat reduction and increase in moisture wicking provided by the design of that shirt than the FR properties (since FR AR is not available). I would definitely be up for having a couple of the Frontenac AR shirts done up with the dri-fire or even UA shirts with a mandarin collar and arm pockets.


----------



## Big Red (9 Mar 2007)

Theres a guy on the Arfcom equipment section who does that for US soldiers using underarmour or 5.11 undershirts and combat shirt sleeves.


----------



## PhilB (9 Mar 2007)

Thanks Red, you wouldnt happen to have a link would you?


----------



## Matt_Fisher (9 Mar 2007)

Big Red said:
			
		

> Theres a guy on the Arfcom equipment section who does that for US soldiers using underarmour or 5.11 undershirts and combat shirt sleeves.



I'd be wary of using Underarmor (non FR versions) or any other polyester/lycra based fabrics for such a garment.  If this guy is just cannibalizing the ACU or other uniform tops with t-shirts for the torso, if you get him to build you one, you're better off using something FR based, or at least not something with as much of a melt/burn hazard.


----------



## Matt_Fisher (12 Apr 2007)

US DOD video news brief about the Marine Corps' FROG uniform:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9d9_1176360494


----------



## Yeoman (15 Apr 2007)

yeah I use to wear UA stuff. it's great stuff. but after finding out it didn't have any FR, I stopped wear it.
I had a friend have a shirt like the melt onto his back about 12 years ago. not a pretty sight.


----------



## McG (22 May 2008)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I've always wondered why the hell our combat shirts have a collar?  Why not have something functional that can cover the neck and keep shit from getting down your shirt or something





			
				PhilB said:
			
		

> I LOVE the arm pockets, if I were to make improvements I would suggest ditching the bottom pockets on the combat shirt. I also dont feel that the waist draw string is worth the time either.





			
				boehm said:
			
		

> Pen slots inside a covered pocket on the arm would be mighty useful for certain trades. I loose pens all the time in the field and it is mighty annoying.





			
				RangerRay said:
			
		

> Now here's a suggestion... Develop a combat shirt that is fitted with no pockets designed to be worn with body armour and/or tactical vests, and worn exclusively for field exercises and combat operations...
> 
> And for garrison, have a uniform khaki "dress" shirt with breast pockets, collar, epaulettes, etc., to be worn with the combat pants.


Well here is my proposal.  We retire the combat shirt & adopt something like the US Army Combat Shirt (ACS).  Sleeves identical to the combat shirt (with all the desired fancy pockets, pen slots, Velcro patches, etc), a closed neck and torso to replace the t-shirt. 
[quote author= http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,149676,00.html?ESRC=army-a.nl]The flame-resistant ACS is in development for use under body armor. It is designed to replace two layers, the Army Combat Uniform jacket and moisture-wicking T-shirt, thus reducing bulk and heat stress.[/quote]
There would be no garison shirt (and no retention of the old shirt for garrison use).  Instead there would be an un-tactical vest (or garrison vest).  It would basically be a sleeveless version of the combat shirt which could be worn in environments that require neither TV nor FPV+armour (like at Timmies in KAF or an office in Canada).


----------



## geo (22 May 2008)

Interesting proposal MCG
guess the Star & Army strong message could be replaced by something more appropriate but, all in all, I like it.


----------



## medaid (22 May 2008)

There is no need for a 'garrison vest' why should there be? The shirts pictured are not meant for garrison use at all. They are meant for when you go on active ops or when you are wearing body armour constantly. Another words those who arein HQ positions or who are not actively wearing body armour all day and night do not wear this shirt. They wear the regular combat shirt, that is it.


----------



## McG (22 May 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> There is no need for a 'garrison vest' why should there be? The shirts pictured are not meant for garrison use at all. They are meant for when you go on active ops or when you are wearing body armour constantly.


That is how the US uses them.  However, you ask why should there be a garrison vest and the answer is that if there is not a garrison vest then there needs to be a garrison shirt (because, as you point out, a Canadian ACS would not be designed as outer wear less the arms).  Besides, it cannot hurt to provide clothing that makes transition from one dress to the other easier (though not for the short durations identified by the US) or eliminates the requirement:

[quote author=http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,149676,00.html?ESRC=army-a.nl]Although the ACS was designed to be worn under the Interceptor Body Armor, test participants noted the short breaks between patrols made it impractical to change into the ACU jacket. [/quote]


----------



## medaid (22 May 2008)

MCG said:
			
		

> That is how the US uses them.  However, you ask why should there be a garrison vest and the answer is that if there is not a garrison vest then there needs to be a garrison shirt (because, as you point out, a Canadian ACS would not be designed as outer wear less the arms).



Seen, and yes there needs to be a garrison shirt, I would never say there wouldn't need to be one. However, improvements on a garrison shirt are needed so that in a pinch they can be deployed as field shirts and be worn comfortably enough underneath the FV.


----------



## McG (22 May 2008)

I suppose we address the same issue from opposite ends.  I propose making the field shirt work in garrison while your approach would make a garrison shirt that works as a second resort in the field.


----------



## Armymedic (22 May 2008)

Why make it complicated?

You have combat cothing we all have been issued. No change, none needed. Add in the "ACS" to be issued to all troops and worn when appropriate or directed.

Also the concept of an "ACS" for under armour loses its appeal when you need to add on enviromental gear to keep dry and/or warm.

When in comes to being warm and dry, I vote for Arc'teryx.


----------



## geo (22 May 2008)

Arc'teryx - nice gear there....


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin (22 May 2008)

I'll kick in my two cents.  "No change" isn't an option.  The combat shirt is a travesty that CTS should have changed when we transtioned to CADPAT.  Instead of being innovative, we are saddled with an ill-fitting garment that is dated in the extreme, complete with FN C1 mag pouches for pockets and baggy lower pockets for grenades - both totally pointless.  It fits very poorly under a flak vest (where the pockets are useless) and makes for exceptionally ugly "walking out dress" - which is deemed to be.  Now we've covered the buttons with "FOD" flaps to make them even less utilitarian.

When, years ago, I asked why the shirt remained the same cut as the OD garment, I was told that "troops love the pockets - you can cut an FMP in half and it fits perfectly!"   :

Yes, I have "issues"...


----------



## Haggis (22 May 2008)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> I'll kick in my two cents.  "No change" isn't an option.  The combat shirt is a travesty that CTS should have changed when we transtioned to CADPAT.  Instead of being innovative, we are saddled with an ill-fitting garment that is dated in the extreme, complete with FN C1 mag pouches for pockets and baggy lower pockets for grenades - both totally pointless.  It fits very poorly under a flak vest (where the pockets are useless) and makes for exceptionally ugly "walking out dress" - which is deemed to be.  Now we've covered the buttons with "FOD" flaps to make them even less utilitarian.



In Ottawa, the wearing of CADPAT is actively discouraged and against Standing Orders in most units outside the Land Staff for WOs and above.  In an Army which really only has two orders of dress, operational and DEU, theres no more "middle ground".



			
				Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> When, years ago, I asked why the shirt remained the same cut as the OD garment, I was told that "troops love the pockets - you can cut an FMP in half and it fits perfectly!"   :



Which is a uniquely Canadian answer to either:

- making an FMP that fits the existing pocket; or
- making pockets that fit the existing FMP.



			
				Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Yes, I have "issues"...



Most of us do, and being the worst "garrison" dressed of the three services only heightens our sense of fashion inadequacy.


----------



## aesop081 (22 May 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> and being the worst "garrison" dressed of the three services only heightens our sense of fashion inadequacy.



Considering that most of the AF wears CADPAT to work, i would say you have company.


----------



## Haggis (22 May 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Considering that most of the AF wears CADPAT to work, i would say you have company.



Not in Ottawa.

And when I say "garrison dressed", I'm referring to what you Air Force refer to as "Base Dress" the fashion equivalent to our old Garrison Dress uniform, the Candian Tire camo jacket, work dress pants and fallshcmirjager boots.


----------



## medaid (22 May 2008)

MCG said:
			
		

> I suppose we address the same issue from opposite ends.  I propose making the field shirt work in garrison while your approach would make a garrison shirt that works as a second resort in the field.



I guess so  ;D Like SMMT said, there are times when the combat shirt won't work and that's when you'll need your 'garrison shirt' to step up and take the ball. 

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with how our American or British brethren have gone with their uniform system. However I do and still advocate that we need to change the design of our current CTS CADPAT shirts to reflect the current needs. A mandarin collar in stead of the collared weird thing that we currently have will suit our troops better. It keeps the armour from chaffing the neck and it keeps some of the sand out


----------



## Fusaki (22 May 2008)

> Why make it complicated?
> 
> You have combat cothing we all have been issued. No change, none needed. Add in the "ACS" to be issued to all troops and worn when appropriate or directed.
> 
> Also the concept of an "ACS" for under armour loses its appeal when you need to add on enviromental gear to keep dry and/or warm.



This seems the most reasonable to me.

I don't see what's so difficult about borrowing the American design, testing it again in Canada for flash protection, and if it passes just put an order in for X amount of AR CADPAT gucci shirts. Issue out a few shirts to each guy overseas, and maybe later down the road start looking at TW CADPAT versions.

Personally, I've never had a problem with our current combat shirt while in garrison. In the field maybe a smock system would be better. The key though is getting a better AR CADPAT shirt overseas as soon as possible.


----------



## McG (22 May 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I don't see what's so difficult about ....


PWGSC.  Government contracting policy.  Trade agreements.  Stopping any other testing that is already on-going.  Getting funding approval.  

... and that's not getting into any industry issues that might surround getting the materials in CADPAT.

Getting an ACS type shirt is not impossible, but it can't happen over night.


----------



## Ecco (22 May 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I don't see what's so difficult about borrowing the American design, testing it again in Canada for flash protection, and if it passes just put an order in for X amount of AR CADPAT gucci shirts. Issue out a few shirts to each guy overseas, and maybe later down the road start looking at TW CADPAT versions.



Problem solved in less two lines, from idea to definition, financial expenditure authority, testing, user trial, requisition, bid evaluation, contracting, distribution and implementation.   :

Oversimplification is a wonderful thing:
I don't see what is so difficult about winning the war in Afghanistan:  We just have to fly soldiers there, kill all the Talibans, then convince every Afghan that democracy is better, remove the production of illegal substances and fly the soldiers back home, and maybe later down the road start looking at fixing the situation in Irak.


----------



## dimsum (22 May 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> A mandarin collar in stead of the collared weird thing that we currently have will suit our troops better. It keeps the armour from chaffing the neck and it keeps some of the sand out



Agreed.  The flying suits and NCD shirts could also use a mandarin collar...seriously, who needs a collar in operational clothing ???


----------



## Fusaki (22 May 2008)

> Oversimplification is a wonderful thing:
> I don't see what is so difficult about winning the war in Afghanistan:  We just have to fly soldiers there, kill all the Talibans, then convince every Afghan that democracy is better, remove the production of illegal substances and fly the soldiers back home, and maybe later down the road start looking at fixing the situation in Irak.



I see your point, and I didn't mean to come off as snarky.

I think the question needed to be asked. Keep in mind that we don't see any of that PWGSC stuff at the bottom. Aside from the odd user trial, we just go to QM, pick the stuff up, and pack it in the ruck. Believe it or not, alot of guys think that getting new gear issued is no more complicated then going to the store and buying the latest IPOD.  I think a lack of understanding leads to alot of the frustration with "the system."


----------



## Ecco (22 May 2008)

I did not mean to come off as snarky either.  

The LFTSP program is a year long intensive course into the basic vocabulary, science and process of kit procurement.  Even after the course, the system seems slow, sluggish, unwieldy and alien.  I am often amazed that it actually works at delivering kit from time to time.  It's frustrating, but it's the only process we have to spend beautiful taxpayer money into capabilities.

As an example, it literally took years for industry (Canadian and worldwide) to find the recipes to print CADPAT unto fabric, make it a durable print and respect the near-IR reflectance requirements.  Changing the underlying materials to flame retardant means that printing recipes have to be redone, etc...  :crybaby:


----------



## CrazyCanuck (23 May 2008)

If anything needs to be changed it's the synthetic clothing that's now being issued like polypro (least I think that's what it's called). People seem to be forgetting the lessons learned by the Brits in the Falklands... Synthetic stuff *melts* and causes horrendous wounds. Ya sure it's comfortable but when it melts to your skin it would be a lot less so. As for a better pocket system I don't really think the answer is placing them on the uniform itself, a better tac vest should be designed to accommodate anything extra you need to carry IMO. I hate having stuffed pockets as everything is loose and unsecured and bounces around when you run or march, least in a tac vest it is a bit more secure.


----------



## Ecco (23 May 2008)

Boater said:
			
		

> If anything needs to be changed it's the synthetic clothing that's now being issued like polypro (least I think that's what it's called). People seem to be forgetting the lessons learned by the Brits in the Falklands... Synthetic stuff *melts* and causes horrendous wounds. Ya sure it's comfortable but when it melts to your skin it would be a lot less so.



Since this is a combat clothing thread, I will assume that you are referring to fleece outergarment.  It is actually a decent argument not to wear it as the outer layer, if there is a flash/flame/fire threat in your vicinity:  Coleman stoves in artic tents comes to mind.  Reminds me of an earlier conversation.

Since you appear to be navy, just wear the Nice (pun intended) stuff you are given.  Their FR characteristics are excellent, if worn according to guidelines.  Supposedly, ships burn.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (23 May 2008)

I think he was also referring to the lightweight thermal underwear as well.  I am not sure about burns, heat etc but I do know I would feel more comfortable in my own mind if I knew the stuff keeping me warm wouldn't melt even if it is under the combat shirt.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/2/262_e.asp


----------



## CrazyCanuck (23 May 2008)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> I think he was also referring to the lightweight thermal underwear as well.



That's the stuff! Couldn't think of the name. Wouldn't want to take it into a combat zone unless I can find proof that it doesn't melt, the fabric just feels like it would.


----------



## KevinB (23 May 2008)

It melts rather extraordinarily well (or badly depending upon what your goal is...). I shitcanned all my CF undergear when we did a little melt test.


----------



## CrazyCanuck (24 May 2008)

Was the old waffle stuff as bad for that? Starting to think I should have kept mine...


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## daftandbarmy (24 May 2008)

Merino wool is good stuff. Or silk. The waffle cotton cr*p would be more likely kill you from hypothermia before any flames get you.


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## Loachman (24 May 2008)

www.drifire.com


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## daftandbarmy (24 May 2008)

Loachman said:
			
		

> www.drifire.com



Now there's a good solution. Does anyone in the CF have access to this product without having to buy it themselves?


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## Loachman (24 May 2008)

Not as far as I am aware. I intend to push for it on the ALSE (Aviation Life Suppport Equipment) side, though.

It is pricey, and they only ship by UPS which doesn't help, but it's worth it as far as I'm concerned.

CP Gear carries the shirts, but I got the short and long underwear directly.


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## R711 (22 Jun 2008)

Sarcasm" if you wanna make the clothing better get rid of CTS and its empire LOL" ;D. 
The long testing and procurment time is causing us to fall behind in the avalible technology, when CTS first started down the developement road it was cutting edge. Now not so much, partialy it is CTS trying to sustain itself, the procurment system and ultimatly the responsability to the tax payer to spend the money wisely.
Now that has been said, a shirt like the FROG/ACU under armour shirt with a crye type vest would be a good thing. Along with that concept a system of combats _a la_ the FROG system seems like a brilliant idea (to be worn only in combat/danger areas.) The rumournet states that the new series of combats in TW will have arm pockets, but I will believe that when I see it. (side note I am not trying to offend anyone with my statements)
R711 OUT


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## KevinB (29 Jun 2008)

Caleb Crye is a Canadian -- he went south since there was no interest in high speed stuff in Canada...


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