# forces.gc.ca email address?



## maximus_koncept7 (4 May 2007)

looks like everybody I know has one of these except for me, I just realized this today, but my reserve unit is already finished for the year...

so voila, one more question!


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## Sig_Des (4 May 2007)

Your day staff should have an IT supervisor. Said person can hook you up with a DWAN account if you need one. Keep in mind that you can only access those accounts from a DWAN computer.


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## 241 (4 May 2007)

Further more you normaly only get one if you need to have one, not just so you can say you have one.


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## infamous_p (4 May 2007)

All Class B Reservists are given these e-mail accounts. On top of that, forces.gc.ca accounts are generally only given to those of the rank of Cpl and above, provided (like 241 said) you need one for business purposes.

Edited for spelling.


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## geo (4 May 2007)

Given that all publications are mostly kept up to date on the DIN, NCOs and Offrs need DIN access these days....


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## 284_226 (4 May 2007)

For the most part, if one has a DWAN login, then one probably has a SMTP address.  There are some exceptions, like student accounts at the schools, which are internal mail accounts only.  If one does have a DWAN account, the easiest way to tell if you have an externally accessible SMTP address is to look up your own entry in the Global Address Book, view the properties for it, and look on the "Addresses" tab.  If you have a forces.gc.ca address, it'll be listed there.

I can't speak for the reserves, but getting a DWAN login and associated e-mail account is part of an in-routine at Air Force bases (regardless of rank), and I'd guess that it's now the same across the Army and Navy as well.


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## geo (5 May 2007)

true

It's just taking a little longer for the reserves to have enverything filter down to the bottom.... thay have the largest number of people & consequently, the highest turnover


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## Disenchantedsailor (5 May 2007)

infamous_p said:
			
		

> All Class B Reservists are given these e-mail accounts. On top of that, forces.gc.ca accounts are generally only given to those of the rank of Cpl and above, provided (like 241 said) you need one for business purposes.
> 
> Edited for spelling.



All mnbrs of the CF are to have a DWAN/DIN account, they are required to access such things as QR&O's (now only published electronically) to restrict the distribution of accounts violates the access to Regulations and orders article in QR&O's. I just came from a network control job and this fact was made very clear. Regardless if you are c class A reservist or a reg force type in operations. but please if you have a reference saying GNR's and Pte's are not allowed to have accounts please point it out


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## PO2FinClk (5 May 2007)

Pte's not allowed DIN access??? ... not typing another word as it would just not be nice.


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## Disenchantedsailor (5 May 2007)

Can you imagine P2 if your people (od's/ab's) were not permitted accounts, how would anyone get paid... I'd say more but again politeness prevents me, But I think we're on the same train of thought here


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## Pte_Martin (5 May 2007)

does it really matter if res pte get din access i know i didn't need it?


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## Disenchantedsailor (5 May 2007)

you may not need it, until you're on a career course and have to type up a lesson plan, not usually a Pte thing to do, and maybe trade dependant its not required, but the reg sayith... There its lots of valuable information avail on the din, everythibg from bde warning orders to important things like CFAO, DOAD, CBI, QRO, Course outlines, Documentum and the like tha may just be valuable to a res infantryman on his way to CTC or WATC of CMTC for course. Don't discount the validaty just because you didn't get one doesn't mean you shouldn't have had one


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## Pte_Martin (5 May 2007)

I wasn't saying that since i didn't get/need one no ptes should have one, Yes it is different for different units and trades, but for me as a pte coming out and Thursdays and weekends and having a section commander and 2ic that i could get info from, and where our unit didn't have a big computer lab for everyone to use. As a pte as well i was still getting used to being in the army and to the routine, and making comrades i really didn't have time to search on the DIN. Doesn't the Ops WO give info for crse and such?


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## 284_226 (5 May 2007)

Just to clarify - the original poster was asking about a *forces.gc.ca* e-mail account.  There's an important distinction to be made here:

One can have DWAN access with mail, and not necessarily have a forces.gc.ca mail address.  I don't think this is a case of "Ptes shouldn't have login access to the DWAN", as they clearly should as others have pointed out.  Whether they actually need an external mail account is a completely separate matter.


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## Disenchantedsailor (5 May 2007)

its ADM/IM policy that all personal dwan accounts will have a mailbox attached unless that priviledge has been revoked pursuant to a court order or abuse of DAOD 1000-1, so baring any misconduct on behalf of the individual in question, there is no such thins as one without the other.


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## 284_226 (6 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> its ADM/IM policy that all personal dwan accounts will have a mailbox attached unless that priviledge has been revoked pursuant to a court order or abuse of DAOD 1000-1, so baring any misconduct on behalf of the individual in question, there is no such thins as one without the other.



You're not seeing the distinction here.  You can have a DWAN account with mail, and still not have a SMTP address (the user@forces.gc.ca address).  Some accounts are strictly internal, so the original poster may not have one because they're not supposed to have one.


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## Disenchantedsailor (6 May 2007)

those strictly internal accounts are for certain defence contrators and positional accounts only. The only reason the poster would have a personal dwan account and not have a forces.gc.ca mail address would be due to misconduct. So I guess to make the distinction clear for all, mail enabled user accounts have an external mail address user@forces.gc.ca, mail enabled positional accounts have internal mail addresses only user@intern.mil.ca and the associated account is disabled leaving the mailbox active and the account inactive, security permissions are then set so that individual users can access the mailbox only. so for the poster if you do not yet have a mailenabled dwan account see your class B IT Coord, or as is more likely the RFTA, its a simple process and in most places the ITC can create the account at the unit level.

Edited for spelling and grammar


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## Zoomie (7 May 2007)

There is zero requirement for a PRes Private to have a DWAN/DIN account.

Unless said member was employed on a Class-B contract, there would not be time for this pers to log in and check emails.

I can guarantee you that only 10-20% of a Reservist regiment has access to the DWAN - as there are very limited IT resources.


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## Disenchantedsailor (8 May 2007)

I'll tell you from experience my friend, every reservist at the regiment I'm doing my ewat at has one, I made sure of that, coming from the network control side of the house before going Arty. just because they may not have a percieved requirement does not mean that the entitlement changes.


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## armyvern (8 May 2007)

Hard copies can still be downloaded by supervisors who do have access and retained in a central location for use by personnel who require them (usually the Trg Office, CSMs, or Unit Orderly Room). This is done by many Regular Force Units whose personnel do not have access. Therefore they are still in compliance with directives to ensure access to these items. ArtyNewbie, your argument that lack of electronic access means they are not availed of these is incorrect. We are even able to send hard copies of CANFORGENs and Routine Orders etc around with circ slips attached to them for each member to sign as having "read" which are then retained on file should someone choose to have claimed they never saw it just like we did ~gasp~ in the old days.  Believe it or not...the world (and the CF) can possibly rotate without us all having PCs & laptops. A printed hard copy available within the Unit means they are getting the access to these items that they are entitled to, no-one said it has to be electronic access.

There are a vast number of RegF personnel with no electronic access, but who are availed of downloaded hard copies. Just run a system e-mail search by Unit and use a 1st Line Infantry Unit such as 2RCR....note the distinct lack of listings with the rank of Pte or Cpl showing after their names....


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## niner domestic (8 May 2007)

Well, when I had my email account it was "me"@fo*r*ces.gc.ca, I don't seem to recall any mail address such as foces.gc.ca. Can someone who has the magic button, please correct the title of this thread? It's been annoying me for days that the word forces has been misspelled...thanks


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## aesop081 (8 May 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Well, when I had my email account it was "me"@fo*r*ces.gc.ca, I don't seem to recall any mail address such as foces.gc.ca. Can someone who has the magic button, please correct the title of this thread? It's been annoying me for days that the word forces has been misspelled...thanks




Done...crissis averted


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## niner domestic (8 May 2007)

Thank you Cdn Aviator...now.. about the word crisis....LOL


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## George Wallace (8 May 2007)

Just a small point to all who have found it annoying that someone who can't spell, or doesn't respect the rest of us enough to care about spelling, has posted a topic incorrectly spelling a word or more....................you can take it upon yourself before posting your reply to correct the "Subject Box".....then hit "Post".

Us Mods are going nuts trying to keep those who don't care about such matters in line, we could surely use your help.


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## aesop081 (8 May 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Thank you Cdn Aviator...now.. about the word crisis....LOL



Right back at you  ;D


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## niner domestic (8 May 2007)

Thank you George for pointing that out. I was reluctant to change the title as I was not sure if it would create a sub thread as it sometimes does with other forum software.  But now we know and will try to keep watch in order to help out.  

CDN Aviator...you do have such problems with your moniker.  Darn people not being able to read it.


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## aesop081 (8 May 2007)

Back to email matters.....

For the first 4 years of my career, i did not have DIN and e-mail access. I did not get one until my second posting where i needed it working in SHQ and later as a section commander. 

During those 4 years, i got my ROs from the unit boards, i got info from my CoC when i required it and _*gasp*_ i used a phone when i needed to talk to someone about something. Seems to me, things worked out just fine.


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## George Wallace (8 May 2007)

Actually Forces email, can sometimes be looked at as a step backwards.  Many so rely on it, that many occasions arise that cause the system to fail.  I have in the past often found out things quicker by word, than by email.  I have seen many instances where an 'order' or 'request' was sent by email, but due to inability of the recipient to access their email in a timely manner, a deadline has past.  

How many bother to put up an "Out of Office" notice when they are away for prolonged periods?

How many don't have full time access to the DWAN?

How many don't CYA and use the notification settings or "Request Read Receipt"?

Sometimes it can create even greater gaps in communications, if some place too much reliance on it and don't follow up.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 May 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Just a small point to all who have found it annoying that someone who can't spell, or doesn't respect the rest of us enough to care about spelling, has posted a topic incorrectly spelling a word or more....................you can take it upon yourself before posting your reply to correct the "Subject Box".....then hit "Post".
> 
> Us Mods are going nuts trying to keep those who don't care about such matters in line, we could surely use your help.



Well, I learn something everyday.....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 May 2007)

So, just testing if all the following posts keep the new title.


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## armyvern (8 May 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well, I learn something everyday.....



OMG...I can't believe that Mr. B pays you!!  >


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 May 2007)

Total Time Spent Online: 145 days, 2 hours and 58 minutes. 

Quanity, not quality, my Dear.


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## armyvern (8 May 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quanity, not quality, my Dear.



I will refrain from making the comment that I so desperately want to make!!  ;D


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## GAP (8 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> I will refrain from making the comment that I so desperately want to make!!  ;D



come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!


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## armyvern (8 May 2007)

GAP said:
			
		

> come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  come on!!



Are you trying to corrupt me? Not going to happen you bully.


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## GAP (8 May 2007)

Me bully?? Not on your life.....I'm just appealing to that "innocent" nature of yours. (come on!!  come on!!  come on!!  )


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## Disenchantedsailor (9 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Hard copies can still be downloaded by supervisors who do have access and retained in a central location for use by personnel who require them (usually the Trg Office, CSMs, or Unit Orderly Room). This is done by many Regular Force Units whose personnel do not have access. Therefore they are still in compliance with directives to ensure access to these items. ArtyNewbie, your argument that lack of electronic access means they are not availed of these is incorrect. We are even able to send hard copies of CANFORGENs and Routine Orders etc around with circ slips attached to them for each member to sign as having "read" which are then retained on file should someone choose to have claimed they never saw it just like we did ~gasp~ in the old days.  Believe it or not...the world (and the CF) can possibly rotate without us all having PCs & laptops. A printed hard copy available within the Unit means they are getting the access to these items that they are entitled to, no-one said it has to be electronic access.
> 
> There are a vast number of RegF personnel with no electronic access, but who are availed of downloaded hard copies. Just run a system e-mail search by Unit and use a 1st Line Infantry Unit such as 2RCR....note the distinct lack of listings with the rank of Pte or Cpl showing after their names....



It's not entirely incorrect, most SM don't have time to download and print all 4 Vol of QR&O, especially after every change. I do agree the world can work without, but it doesn't, its here and its not going anywhere.


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## George Wallace (9 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Hard copies can still be downloaded by supervisors who do have access and retained in a central location for use by personnel who require them (usually the Trg Office, CSMs, or Unit Orderly Room). This is done by many Regular Force Units whose personnel do not have access. Therefore they are still in compliance with directives to ensure access to these items. ...................



Missed this one.....sorry, but there is a problem with this statement.  PRINTERS.  Not everyone, including supervisors, have easy access to printers.  They are tricky at times to add as a default printer, and may not be in the same room/office as you.  They may be 'locked' and require a code to access.  So Hard Copies, can at times be a problem.  So can the fact that when you are mobile, you have to find a printer near you, and if you forget to change your default printer, you may be printing off a tonne of paper in another province as you stare at a printer that is not printing in your new location..... Opps!   ;D


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## 241 (9 May 2007)

While I am sure not every Reservest has (or even needs) a DWAN account I am sure that at least 95% of them have a home computer with internet access and the CFAOs, QR&Os, &  & DOADs are all available on Civi internet, so I don't see the need for every reservest to have an account, with my unit there are approx 6 computers available to us and if every person in the unit had an account those of us that actually need access would never be able to get on because everyone would be wanting to check there email and such


CFAOs : http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp  
QR&Os : http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/intro_e.asp 
CFAOs  : http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/intro_e.asp


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## SupersonicMax (10 May 2007)

241 said:
			
		

> While I am sure not every Reservest has (or even needs) a DWAN account I am sure that at least 95% of them have a home computer with internet access and the CFAOs, QR&Os, &  & DOADs are all available on Civi internet, so I don't see the need for every reservest to have an account, with my unit there are approx 6 computers available to us and if every person in the unit had an account those of us that actually need access would never be able to get on because everyone would be wanting to check there email and such
> 
> 
> CFAOs : http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp
> ...



The CFs can't expect you to have a computer and internet at home.

Max


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## armyvern (10 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> It's not entirely incorrect, most SM don't have time to download and print all 4 Vol of QR&O, especially after every change. I do agree the world can work without, but it doesn't, its here and its not going anywhere.


Wow. You've obviously not been in for long. It wasn't so many years ago that "Publication Amendment Sheets" were kept in the front of publications...(they still are) so that when you made either a simple ink amendment ot a pub, or replaced only the pages that required replacing, it was recorded in the front of the pub on that sheet.

There is no requirement to massacre a million trees to amend your pub hard copies. No time? That takes work and upkeep? No excuse. Legally, it only needs to be downloaded and printed once.  After that it's mere maintenance and upkeep...a fact of life some people need to get used to as the hard copy IS the legal copy...not the electronic version. They even make it really easy for you to maintain your hard copies these days...by listing the amendments separately (even throwing big bright "new" icons next to the new ones so you know which one you have to reprint!!). Yes the CF does this for you. You just click on "print." Take the new one off the printer, replace the old one with the new one in the hardcopy of the pub...and note it on the "Amendments" page. Takes approx 2 minutes of ones time. Not too much to give up to ensure your troops have access is it? It happens all the time.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp

I'll quote:


> The Canadian Forces Administrative Orders (CFAO) collection is provided in electronic format on the Internet for the convenience of users. For legal purposes the paper copy is still considered the official copy. Please be advised that the CFAO collection is in the process of being superseded by the Defence Administrative Orders and Directives (DAODs), manuals and/or other publications, or are being cancelled as required. As such, the CFAO collection is not being amended, and no new CFAOs are being written. As a courtesy to the users, as CFAOs are superseded the appropriate link to the new document will be provided. However, these links will not be updated.



So now we know that it is indeed the paper copy that is considered "legal." We also know that the CFAOs are being superseded by the DAODs. So I'll include the link to the DAODs so that you can scroll down to the bottom of the opening page and see just how easy they make it for you to print that amendment...and include it in the legal hard copy that should be located somewhere within your Unit lines already.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/intro_e.asp


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## 284_226 (10 May 2007)

The hard copy of CFAOs is the legal copy if and only if the hard copy is the one provided via the CF Publications Depot and maintained through the Amendment List, from way back when they used to actually provide paper copies.  It really doesn't make any sense for the paper copy to be the legal one if it's still warm from being printed directly from the electronic version.

Try to hold back on the disdainful comments like "Wow.You've obviously not been in for long.", when ArtyNewbie lists 7 years as a NavComm.  A 7-year NavComm has probably done more pen & ink/page-substitution amendments to Communications, Tactical, and Security publications than any other trade in the CF.  Some pubs are amended on a weekly basis.  I'm sure he knows how a pub is amended.


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## armyvern (10 May 2007)

I'm sure he does 284_226, just as I'm quite sure he knows how to change the printer settings (seeing as how he has frequently referred to his previous experience in 'network control') to print only the page with the amendment on it vice the whole pub again. That's what my comments were in ref to.

Re-read his comments again: "especially after every change." 

I am also quite aware of the pubs depot and what it does and did. I actually used to work the pubs section...


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## 241 (10 May 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The CFs can't expect you to have a computer and internet at home.
> 
> Max



I never said the CF should expect anyone to have a computer at home, all I was saying is that there are simply not enough resources to make giving every member of a unit DWAN access and still allow the leadership of said unit ample access to the computers to ensure that training and admin can go on uninterrupted, so as a solution to the one argument brought up by artynewbie (I think it was him) as to why everyone should have access to a DWAN account I was simply mentioning how many people have access to CFAOs, DAODs, and QR&Os at home thus there is no need for everyone to have the access, not to mention that you cant walk a block down a street anywhere without tripping over an internet cafe that those 5% (give or take) that don't have a computer and/or internet access at home can use.

Basically what I am saying is that it is not feesable to supply an entire unit with an account when there are only a dozen or so computers available.  There was talk in Red Deer here of a computer lab sort of thing being set up where members with out a office/computer could access the DWAN but that made it as far as a sign on the door and a few extra LAN ports in the room, so not a priority, at least not around here.


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## SupersonicMax (10 May 2007)

You don't need the number of computers to be equal to the number of members.  As long as you have access to the DWAN (setting up an account isn't that complicated according to the IT guys here), you have access to the docs, regardless of how many computers there are in the unit.  I think we had 3 DWAN computers for 10 pilots at the Sqn (plus some reservists).  

An other solution would have to have a General Net computer (we had 2 at the Sqn)

Max


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## Pte_Martin (11 May 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The CFs can't expect you to have a computer and internet at home.
> 
> Max



No but friends, internet cafe, and library are some of the ways you can get on the net


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## SupersonicMax (11 May 2007)

Infantry_ said:
			
		

> No but friends, internet cafe, and library are some of the ways you can get on the net



Sure, but the CFs are required to provide you with the tools to accomplish your work.  Access to those pubs is deemed necessary to accomplish your work.  They can't expect you to use your internet at home, go to an internet cafe, a library or see friends in order to access them.

Max


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## armyvern (11 May 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Sure, but the CFs are required to provide you with the tools to accomplish your work.  Access to those pubs is deemed necessary to accomplish your work.  They can't expect you to use your internet at home, go to an internet cafe, a library or see friends in order to access them.
> 
> Max



And they don't require you to do any of that. Nowhere is it written that the access has to be electronic. No where. Most Units I know still keep that hard copy available for their personnel with no computer access.

It's simple to do, and to update. Like I said before the CF even makes it very easy to do this these days.

Geez, I'd hate to actually have to pack up and go somewhere these days with no computer access because, judging by some of the remarks in this thread, we couldn't do our jobs without those darn computers.  God forbid the servers go down for a week or two; god forbid we have another massive power outage in Ontario.  Somehow, I just don't think that the _excuse_ of "our computers weren't working" or "we couldn't access our computers" is going to fly. It hasn't so far.

To insinuate that the CF or it's members can not perform their duties unless immediate and full access is available to all it's members is absolutely false.


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## NCS_Eng (11 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Geez, I'd hate to actually have to pack up and go somewhere these days with no computer access because, judging by some of the remarks in this thread, we couldn't do our jobs without those darn computers.  God forbid the servers go down for a week or two; god forbid we have another massive power outage in Ontario.  Somehow, I just don't think that the _excuse_ of "our computers weren't working" or "we couldn't access our computers" is going to fly. It hasn't so far.
> 
> To insinuate that the CF or it's members can not perform their duties unless immediate and full access is available to all it's members is absolutely false.



While I agree with you that not everyone needs full computer access, the higher up you get both in rank and in positioning (especially in the cubical farms of NDHQ), the more computer access becomes important. Some of us _do_ need access to a computer to do our jobs. The amount of productivity loss if D or C-net net access was significantly impacted for even a day would be extreme. A two week outage would be catastrophic. 

Like it or not more and more of our daily lives [and I'm just speaking for support/administration/staff work here...] revolve around computer access and to downplay its significance does no one any good. 

Now the people at the pointy end of the organization maybe not so much, but even still computers and networks (Centrixis) are moving into combat roles in a big way. We were recently denied permission to have a _3 hour_ network outage (on a saturday) here in Esquimalt due to ramifications all the way over in Kandahar. As an armed forces we rely on computer networks in a big way.


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## armyvern (11 May 2007)

NCS_Eng said:
			
		

> Like it or not more and more of our daily lives [and I'm just speaking for support/administration/staff work here...] revolve around computer access and to downplay its significance does no one any good.
> 
> Now the people at the pointy end of the organization maybe not so much, but even still computers and networks (Centrixis) are moving into combat roles in a big way. We were recently denied permission to have a _3 hour_ network outage (on a saturday) here in Esquimalt due to ramifications all the way over in Kandahar. As an armed forces we rely on computer networks in a big way.



Make no mistake about it; I am not downplaying the significance that computers play currently in the CF. However, if we have lost site of the fact that if they do go down we must still carry on with our jobs, we have a huge problem. Perhaps, it is time for us to get back-to-the-basics and ensure that every Sup Tech (for example) etc knows exactly what a "bowling sheet" or SRC card is, because be guaranteed that they will use them at some point (they are used during Op Boxtop still and are included in fly-away kits for exactly this reason  as well as rapid response to _austere_ locations ) and if we have indeed ceased teaching our personnel the basics of how to accomplish their jobs without that computer, then we are failing no one but ourselves.

Less than a decade ago, the vast majority of the CF was able to function quite well manually, and if in the future is required to function manually again due to such a power outage scenario, it is our duty to be able to do so; especially so if such an outage is caused by a natural disaster which requires our being relied upon to perform our duties to Canadian citizens.

And, hopefully then, that big earthquake never happens out there in BC if Esquimault can't function for a mere three hours without it's computers. That's actually a scary thought.

Edited to add:

An even scarier thought is that a power outage, and thus lack of computers, in Esquimault would have ramifications for personnel deployed in Khandahar. This should never be allowed to be the case.


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## Yrys (11 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> ensure that every Sup Tech (for example) etc knows exactly what a "bowling sheet" or SRC card is
> 
> Less than a decade ago, the vast majority of the CF was able to function quite well manually, and if in the future is required to function manually again due to such a power outage scenario, it is our duty to be able to do so; especially so if such an outage is caused by a natural disaster which requires our being relied upon to perform our duties to Canadian citizens.



[Civi comment : they 're playing bowling when the comp is down ? W W, must take a lost of space for the alley ... ]

Speaking of fonctionning manually, with the wind blowing toward terrorism nowadays, and as it could be in the plan
of some of them, it's seems to me that it's a good idea to at least know someone that coulp help work without internet or computer...

Add: sorry for any mistake, can't seem to make the spell checker work on a Mac...


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## armyvern (11 May 2007)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Speaking of fonctionning manually, with the wind blowing toward terrorism nowadays, and as it could be in the plan
> of some of them, it's seems to me that it's a good idea to at least know someone that coulp help work without internet or computer...



Which is exactly why I'm of the opinion that we _need_ to weaponize space to protect those satellites up there ... but that's a whole 'nother thread!!


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 May 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> The hard copy of CFAOs is the legal copy if and only if the hard copy is the one provided via the CF Publications Depot and maintained through the Amendment List, from way back when they used to actually provide paper copies.  It really doesn't make any sense for the paper copy to be the legal one if it's still warm from being printed directly from the electronic version.
> 
> Try to hold back on the disdainful comments like "Wow.You've obviously not been in for long.", when ArtyNewbie lists 7 years as a NavComm.  A 7-year NavComm has probably done more pen & ink/page-substitution amendments to Communications, Tactical, and Security publications than any other trade in the CF.  Some pubs are amended on a weekly basis.  I'm sure he knows how a pub is amended.



Daily in some cases, in fact with the AIG/SIC code book (now the CF Address Help file) and ACP 117 series (Routing indicators (UNCLAS)) the requirement to insert pen and ink corrections has been recinded, and in some cases the paper distribution has ceased completely.


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## kratz (12 May 2007)

I go squirrely when I hear and read comments like Zommie in this day and age.

NRHQ has mandated that all ranks are to have DWAN accounts for Sec Clr puposes, clothing issues ect..

To hear that an OS/AB (Pte) has zero reason to access the DIN is a type of blind logic that I can not subscribe to.


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## armyvern (12 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Daily in some cases, in fact with the AIG/SIC code book (now the CF Address Help file) and ACP 117 series (Routing indicators (UNCLAS)) the requirement to insert pen and ink corrections has been recinded, and in some cases the paper distribution has ceased completely.



Which stops absolutely nobody from downloading a hard copy so that the troops have access.


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## armyvern (12 May 2007)

kratz said:
			
		

> NRHQ has mandated that all ranks are to have DWAN accounts for Sec Clr puposes, clothing issues ect..



You can delete clothing from your above. The troops don't need access to get their clothing. If they need access to their Logistik account they can go into Clothing Stores and access via a computer there...or use one of the many Logistik Kiosks that were set up on bases around country for exactly this purpose.


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 May 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Which stops absolutely nobody from downloading a hard copy so that the troops have access.



this may be true, but in the case of the CF Adress Help file each record must be printed individualy, each AIG, each Postal address/PLA Address, each SIC code, makes this particular pub very difficult to maintain a hard copy of, exactly why ADM IM reccomends it not be done. It is far less time consuming to give a Pte/OS an account and point them in the direction of the pub than it is print the pub, maintain the pub, and then pay a Class B soldier/sailor/air pers to track and update the pubs.


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## George Wallace (12 May 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> It is far less time consuming to give a Pte/OS an account and point them in the direction of the pub than it is print the pub, maintain the pub, and then pay a Class B soldier/sailor/air pers to track and update the pubs.



 ???

You have totally lost me here.  What savings in Time, materials, monies, etc. do you think we will have using your method?  How many forests do we have to kill?


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## kratz (12 May 2007)

My example of clothing was not a negative against the great work of stores folks. 

My point is that the era of job specific computers for most areas of the CF are on the way out. With the revamping of the national gateway, the intent is for anyone with a @forces.gc.ca account to now access their files from any DWAN computer anywhere. For example, I am heading home next weekend for a job. During that time, If I need to access files, all I need to do is log into a DIN computer and I will be capable of seeing all of my files as if I was sitting in my own office.

To limit access to a certain rank or Regular Force only woould be a progressive step back .


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## 284_226 (12 May 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> You have totally lost me here.  What savings in Time, materials, monies, etc. do you think we will have using your method?  How many forests do we have to kill?



Yes, I think you got the viewpoints crossed somewhere along the way.  ArtyNewbie is more or less of the opinion that a paperless office is the way to go.  I pretty much feel the same way - the cost related to creating a DWAN account and a small amount of network storage (Q: drive) is insignificant in relation to what it costs to maintain paper copies of everything under the sun.

I'm personally in favour of making sure everyone (reserve Ptes included) has free, unimpeded access to Regulations, Orders and Directives via a DWAN account.  To restrict that in any way just might be enough to allow someone to justifiably claim that ignorance of the law is indeed a valid excuse.  If that means some Reserve COs need to increase their IT budgets, so be it.


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## aesop081 (12 May 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> a paperless office is the way to go.  it.



The paperless office is one of the great myths of the world.  When email came to the CF everyone argued that it would save on paper and mney and that things would become paperless.  Well years later, what we have seen is just as much, if not more paper.  People print their emails, print this, print that......It hasnt happenned.


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## George Wallace (12 May 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The paperless office is one of the great myths of the world.  When email came to the CF everyone argued that it would save on paper and mney and that things would become paperless.  Well years later, what we have seen is just as much, if not more paper.  People print their emails, print this, print that......It hasnt happenned.



Yup!

It is that "Hard Copy" that is used and that "Hard Copy" that is filed by many as a method of CYA.  

Heck, it is even the means that many use as a "Posting Message" and carry around to various agencies as proof.

Wait for the day when we are all issued Blackberries.


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## 284_226 (12 May 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The paperless office is one of the great myths of the world.  When email came to the CF everyone argued that it would save on paper and mney and that things would become paperless.  Well years later, what we have seen is just as much, if not more paper.  People print their emails, print this, print that......It hasnt happenned.



I forgot my disclaimer* to that previous post...

*A paperless office is mostly unachievable because people are largely uninterested in learning the skills required to manage information in that manner.


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## armyvern (12 May 2007)

No CDN Aviator, you're right; _ it _ (ie paperless) never happened.

Ask any Sup Tech who went to that "paperworkless" new CFSS in 2001. Yeah, our filing cabinet requirements have quadrupled to hold the same number of docs. Funny too that the doc envelope jackets went from being 4" X 6" to being 8.5" X 14." That's a lot of extra space required when you are holding 8800 sets of docs...thanks to the 'electronic age.'

Funny how I now have to print copies of everything I send out (getting read receipts of course) to my troops to retain a hardcopy as back up that they have been delivered/read....just in case that hard drive loses it or the computers go down. And no, memory sticks etc are not the answer...I already have 10 or 12 of them filled up with 6 months of crap...as backup.

And can some one tell me why, in this supposed new age of no paperwork, the amounts of monies that Units have to allocate towards purchase of paper is drastically increasing each year...(and here's a hint...it's _not_ inflation).

And damn, if that lazy SOB would just get off his butt once in awhile and use the damn phone instead of harping back with a "I'm waiting for an email response" we'd all get shit done much more efficiently.

Edited for typo.


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## 284_226 (12 May 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Wait for the day when we are all issued Blackberries.



Lord, shoot me now.

We've got 50 of the infernal CrackBerrys to administer in our shop, and I hate the %&#*&^! things with a passion most wouldn't even understand.


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## navymich (12 May 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Lord, shoot me now.
> 
> We've got 50 of the infernal CrackBerrys to administer in our shop, and I hate the %&#*&^! things with a passion most wouldn't even understand.



Ugh, try being at sea and the CO loses coverage on it.  You'd think the world had ended!  Goes right along with people that freak when the satellite phone is down, or email isn't available at sea.  Amazing what we used to be able to survive without. :


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## Nfld Sapper (12 May 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yup!
> 
> It is that "Hard Copy" that is used and that "Hard Copy" that is filed by many as a method of CYA.
> 
> ...



Too late that day is here, in my unit most of the higher ups have them.


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 May 2007)

George what I meant by money savings is that yes creating a network account for everyone in the CF is miniscule, now take and add an increase in personel by 1 in every reg force unit to act as pub correction NCO, then a Class B job at every reserve unit for the pub correction NCO, IOT to maintain, enter corrections and track all of the pubs a unit holds. Or simply create an account for a person where they can then access the pub that is updated by a central controlling auth (ADM IM in the case of the CF Address Help file) I'm not calling for a paperless office, just a wise use of available resources. Just take a look at things like claims-X, it is almost unheard of for a paper claim any longer, The CF Address Help file, clothing online (and yes there are kiosks but your boss has to let you go to them, not hard in the reg force when you're minutes away, but at a reserve unit you either have to do it on your own time, or with your own resources or waste half a class A day to go to clothing and order your kit).

As for the CFAO legal status I suspect it will shortly go the way of QR&O's  
"The only official version of the QR&O made under the authority of the National Defence Act is in electronic PDF format found on this web site. A printed copy of the official PDF is only accurate as of the time it was printed."


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## Pte_Martin (12 May 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Yes, I think you got the viewpoints crossed somewhere along the way.  ArtyNewbie is more or less of the opinion that a paperless office is the way to go.  I pretty much feel the same way - the cost related to creating a DWAN account and a small amount of network storage (Q: drive) is insignificant in relation to what it costs to maintain paper copies of everything under the sun.
> 
> I'm personally in favour of making sure everyone (reserve Ptes included) has free, unimpeded access to Regulations, Orders and Directives via a DWAN account.  To restrict that in any way just might be enough to allow someone to justifiably claim that ignorance of the law is indeed a valid excuse.  *If that means some Reserve COs need to increase their IT budgets, so be it.*



Why increase the IT budget? Why not increase the training budget put more money towards ammo, i know lots of people including me who would like to shoot more! Espically as an ex res i know we didn't get near enough ammo we should have(at least my old unit)


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 May 2007)

Infantry_ said:
			
		

> Why increase the IT budget? Why not increase the training budget put more money towards ammo, i know lots of people including me who would like to shoot more! Espically as an ex res i know we didn't get near enough ammo we should have(at least my old unit)



It equipment entitlements are set at the Area Level, of course CO's can go out and buy more kit above thier entitlement, but there are more important things than more computers, that said an account is an account, theres no reason 3 or 4 or 5 people can't share a machine, and accounts don't increase budgets.


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## Meridian (4 Jun 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The paperless office is one of the great myths of the world.  When email came to the CF everyone argued that it would save on paper and mney and that things would become paperless.  Well years later, what we have seen is just as much, if not more paper.  People print their emails, print this, print that......It hasnt happenned.



This does not solely apply to the CF. I work as an IT Project Manager for an extremely large Pharma/Biotech giant. Believe me, we have the cash for an IT system, and our email servers are remarkably reliable.   People still print everything, mostly because people prefer to read something tangible than something that can change before their eyes. Or at least thats what it seems like.

Maybe the CF should strike up a deal with RIM and equip everyone with a Blackberry.   No missed timings! No missed communiques. No excuses.  Duty (and non-duty!) staff can be reached at all hours because - hell, they have a blackberry.  I mean, as I was just reading in another thread, you are paid 24/7, and so the Forces can and will call upon you to be available.. just like Directors do at my work. 

Course, O Groups might get a little bit confusing, what with everyone checking their BBs all the time, but I mean, you don't even need to -hold- the O Group... The OC could just send his message out to all the troops directly! No missed details.

Ahh the power of IT   In all seriousness, I would suspect that it isn't a terrible thing to be allowing reservists to have a forces.gc.ca address, presuming the Forces Anti-Spam software and server space can handle it.   Allowing Pte. Joe Blow to have a few inches more pride  by using a forces.gc.ca address to communicate with whomever can't be a bad thing, presuming he can't communicate clearance info.

On that note, I would hope the Forces is making use of recent advances in OS and Office-style software to restrict forwarding of materials...  I won't ask because Im sure its opsec if it does exist.


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Jun 2007)

The CF JUST upgraded to Win XP if memory serves.


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## PO2FinClk (4 Jun 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> The CF JUST upgraded to Win XP if memory serves.


To be more precise for the time, the CF is currently upgrading to XP as it has not been completed everywhere. Some units will not be until December 07 from what my IS folks have stated.


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Jun 2007)

Always seems like an OS behind.


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## Meridian (4 Jun 2007)

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Always seems like an OS behind.



Sort of.  Most major corporations go along with this 'one OS behind' philosophy, for multiple reasons.

1 - You give the vendor time to release as many updates, patches and fixes as possible -before- you risk your business operations on it. And lets face it, we're talking Microsoft here.
2 - Most big organizations can't release something like that rapidly without affecting the business tremendously, even if there are no glitches (and there always are).  With the increase of mobile computing, this often also means pulling in field or mobile users into the office for at least a day or so.  X all users, thats a lot of lost time.
3 - Legacy software, legacy software & legacy software.


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## Disenchantedsailor (5 Jun 2007)

one OS behind is generally a sound business practice, of course there are limits, like finally installing a 6 year old OS (generally 2 max 3 years is the common practice)


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## Meridian (5 Jun 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> one OS behind is generally a sound business practice, of course there are limits, like finally installing a 6 year old OS (generally 2 max 3 years is the common practice)



Oh I dunno. We are just completing rolling out Win XP to our field force personnel.  And for the service techs, they need dual boot so they can run Win2000 for important legacy stuff.

For every productivity gain, there is a loss on training and re-familiarization, not to mention bugs.


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