# Help! History of quarreling in the Canadian Military



## NWT-Hoy (9 Jun 2007)

Hello all,
I'm helping a colleague write an essay on the history of quarrelling in the CAF and the impacts it has had. So far we have not been able to find any information on the subject, as it is a topic not normally discussed in publications. Could anyone point us in the right direction? Maybe incidents to research, publications to read? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
Hoy


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## Yrys (9 Jun 2007)

NWT-Hoy said:
			
		

> the history of quarrelling in the CAF and the impacts it has had.



What do you mean ? and  how was your BMQ ?


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## NWT-Hoy (9 Jun 2007)

Well, the assignment that he was given was pretty vague... pick an operation/event in Canadian Military History that was affected by quarrelling within the ranks. That's the scope of it...

As for my BMQ, it went well! I actually miss it, and regret that I didn't realize at the time how good it was. I thought things were supposed to get _better_ after BMQ!


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## AJFitzpatrick (11 Jun 2007)

Just a couple of thoughts;
1) Difference between officers and NCM: One group fought duels, the others probably were a little less formal. There are cases of duels between British Officers stationed in Canada (or should that be British North America). Of course this is all pre-independent Canadian forces but may form part of the tradition.
2) Discipline records: Might if accessible, show trends in attitude of the authorities.


Edit: Misinterpretation of topic on my part, carry on.


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## mover1 (11 Jun 2007)

The Dieepe raid, during the planning phases there was quite a bit of quarelling.

This I am just pulling from my posterior as I have nothing hard to back it up, but you can look for it. 

Mountbattens plans, the delays, the RAF, all had a little bit of infighting in them.


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## Old Sweat (11 Jun 2007)

I suggest you take a look at the Battle of Batoche in May 1885 during the North-West Rebellion. This battle was really two separate fights three days apart. Of more importance re quarrelling, the senior officer corps split between the commander, Major General Frederick Bolton Middleton, a British regular, and a number of his Canadian subordinate commanders, the majority of whom were extremely inexperienced militia officers. 

One can argue either side with conviction, although I personally side with Middleton. Having said that, he was out of his depth, having been sent to Canada as a retirement goody and because he had a Canadian wife.

When considering his position, one should also not forget the influence on Middleton's decision making of another regular officer who was neither present nor a British subject - Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer.


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## Danjanou (11 Jun 2007)

The definition of quarreling is rather broad here. If memory serves me there was some “spirited discussions” among senior commanders when 1st Cdn Corp was established in Italy in 1943. 8th Army really didn’t need or want another Corps HQ, especially and untried one, and the Amoured Division that came with it.

The first commander General Creare also did not get along with both his superiors in 8th Army and his subordinates especially Major General Simmonds who was slated to command 5th Armoured Division. As I recall Creare actually went as far as to have the senior Canadian Medical Officer declare Simmonds unfit for command. Ironcially both wee promoted and transferred back to England in preparation for D-Day prior to 1st Canadian Corp fighting its first battle. 

Also may want to look at the relations between the Division Brigade and some Bn commanders during the Italian campaign


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## foresterab (12 Jun 2007)

Slightly off topic here...but related to AJFitzpatricks point about duels in Canada between officers.

When reading some forestry history there was a recorded dispute between a RN officer and a local Canadian militia officer over the effectiveness of Canadian troops.  One thing lead to another and eventually the RN officer challanged his canadian counterpart to a duel. As the aggrivated party the Canadian had his choice of weapon....and in a proper colonial fashion selected broadaxes.  End of dispute..Canada wins.

Now this could be just an urban legard passed down from a drunken Halifax party but I throw it out there as an example between British and Canadian relations that soured.

However a bettter reference might be RCN Uganda and the voting of its crew to not volunteer for further deployment in the pacific following VE day in 1945.
http://www.royal-navy.org/navies/rcn/articles/article2.php?name=2

Hope this helps,
Foresterab


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## mover1 (12 Jun 2007)

IN 1999 during the Kosovo Campaign, my unit (441 Sqn) was tasked to relieve 433 Sqn.
We had just landed on the ground in Italy when the shooting war started. Due to inflated egos or what everboth our Sqns/wings wanted the glory of being the ones to have flown in the war. 
The Bagotville people had their tours extended by a couple of weeks and we had to integrate with their policies. (I think both Co's were having a bit of a bun fight.....)

Anyways. Cold Lake and Bagotville are two totally different bases with different SOP's on how things are done and how the world should look. While we were waiting for 3 Wing personnel to leave us 4 Wingers decided to set up camp and improve a few things. (set up to our satisfaction).
The Bagotville people  took it as a slap in the face. Like we were taking over. 
.

Tensions were raised and it was passed down in orders that even though were had come to relive bagotville that they were still in charge. (I saw one clerk give another a balling out because he answered the phone as 441 Sqn)

Anyways. 

After we heard that the war was going to last longer than a week the Bagotville pers left theater and we from Cold Lake took over. And started operating like we were used to at home.

Because all the pilots were from all over the CF it was decided to take the Sqn tail markings off the F-18 and rats were painted on the tail surfaces of the planes. 

(this was a take off the Gulf Wars desert Cats, we were the Balkan Rats)

I know the story was a bit fragmented but it just shows a little of some of the infighting that went on between units over a 2 week period of time. It was mostly over little things like record keeping, filing, procedures etc etc.


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## 3rd Herd (12 Jun 2007)

Mover1- +1 to the 'Balkan Rats'

Quarreling or Difference of Opinion

1) Canadians and Vimy-delay in attack
2) D-Day Landings- Canadians held back to allow British to 'catch up and establish themselves'. The various changes in command which occurred in this time frame. Or anything to do with Monty and the battle for NW Europe.
3) Korea- Big Jim Stone- refusing to send troops into battle until trained
4) Tri Service Unification
5) The 'discussion' over command of the CAR- Anglo verses Francphone

Foresterab,
interestingly you bring the RCN Uganda. Was talking to a couple of the former crew at the Calgary War Museum a couple of weeks back. They have a very different perspective of events.


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## mover1 (12 Jun 2007)

Difference in opinion, quarelling a few fisty cufs and two CO trying to be the alpha male..

Look into the 1949 mutiny's on the RCN ships.


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## foresterab (12 Jun 2007)

3rd Herd,

Unfortunately I'm a bit far away from Calgary but I'd be interested in hearing the other side of the story.  The Uganda incident has always seemed out place given the Canadian service record in WW2 and there's definately some information missing. 

Here is one of the disputes over leadership and the role of the Canadian army (as I don't want to use examples from just one service).  You may be able to parly this into a comparision of the Canadian Cops of WW1 vs. the more scattered Canadian forces of WW2.
http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/canadianmilitaryhistory/97-05.asp


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## FascistLibertarian (12 Jun 2007)

Canadians in Hong Kong. The 593 serises at DHist is the best, I wouldnt be suprised if they put it online soon, but until then there are many good secondary sources.
The problems in East Brigade between the UK Bring and the Can Lt. Col were fierce.
Contact me if you want a quick list of specific examples or if you want a list of what to read. .


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## NWT-Hoy (12 Jun 2007)

Thank you very much for the responses! There is enough material mentioned here to write a paper, and more.


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