# South East Asia - Split from - "US official says "Saudis Arabia poised to......"



## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> I think, based on what I have seen, and from speaking with others who have spent time in various Gulf states, that this is a serious problem and probably a vulnerability. IMHO it is aggravated by an entitlement society (for native born Arabs) funded by oil revenues. Dubai, IIRC, was a particularly extreme example of this. My impression is that this is not true in all Arab nations: it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue in North African states like Morocco and Algeria, etc, or in Lebanon or Egypt, but then we are speaking about quite a different kind of Arab culture.




I think I have mentioned this before, and it is slightly  ff topic: but I ran into this in Malaysia, too.

I know I have mentioned elsewhere that there is a _separatist_ faction in Malaysia. It is modestly strong in Penang province which is one of the two majority Chinese provinces in Malaysia ~ the other being Kuala Lumpur, that national capital region.

The problem is that the Chinese number only about ¼ of the population ...







                                                               *... but they account for nearly 50% of Malaysia's GDP.*

The Chinese are well educated, productive and clannish. Chinese entrepreneurs will always try to deal with other Chinese Malaysians and even with the _Bamboo network_ and other foreigners before they will deal with ethnic Malaysians ~ the _bumiputera_ ~ who they regard as lazy and corrupt.

I met a young _separatist_ in Penang and, being a Canadian, I couldn't resist challenging her on it. She was a law student (very pretty, by the way) who regaled me with stories (most of which I knew in outline) about the unfair treatment accorded to the Chinese in Malaysia or, probably more truthfully, the official _discrimination_ in favour of the majority _bumiputera_. We focused on the quotas which guarantee a certain number of university places for _bumiputera_, regardless of academic standing. "Are they nor capable?" I asked. "Only the women are," she replied. She then told me that *all* of the ethnic Malaysians in her year in law school were female. There were a small handful of Malaysian men in the year ahead of her and one in the year behind. "But," she said, many of her female _bumiputera_ classmates who would graduate with good law degrees would find themselves in a civil service dominated by less qualified men.

We were joined (in a hotel lounge) by a Malaysian man who, surprisingly, agreed with her. "It is a scandal," he said, "that our young men do so poorly in universities. They are lazy and pampered and, if we are not careful, the women will son take over." "So, " I said, "your objection is not to idle men, it is to smart, hard working women ... is that right?"

I met a few _separatists_ in Penang. I don't think it is a serious threat to Malaysia but the economic disparities are not getting much better. It is a fact that many, many, many _bumiputera_ have been raised from poverty to a middle class status, *but* as the ethnic Malays have progressed (in income) so have the Chinese ... at a faster rate!


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## pbi (25 Oct 2013)

Very interesting, especially when you consider that the Emergency had its roots in a largely Chinese dominated Communist faction. One of the reasons for its failure against the British  (but just one...) was that many Malays already resented and distrusted the ethnic Chinese.

And now to go really  ff topic: 

When I was in Africa (Mozambique) in 1993 I noted a similar situation, although primarily directed against the Indo-Africans. These people tended to dominate shopkeeping and small businesses. I believe that this southern African dislike of the Indians was not confined to Mozambique: IIRC when Idi Amin took over in Uganda, one of the things that happened was a "pogrom" against Indians, some of whom emigrated to Canada.

The Chinese engagement (not to say "invasion"...) of Africa was in its early stages when I was there. The Chinese contributed a rather large team to our UNMO group. I wonder now what it was that they were "observing". Since that time, Chinese economic exploitation of southern Africa has accelerated, not least because the Chinese don't pester the African regimes about silly things like democracy, rule of law or human rights. This allows the Africans to "benefit" (those are very big quotation marks...) from the Chinese presence, in a guilt-free way, sort of like having a diet Coke with your cheeseburger.

A couple of years ago I heard a young African intellectual explaining on CBC that the Chinese were actually the " new friends" of southern Africa, unlike the nasty racist former colonial regimes (who of course only wanted their resources and didn't really care about Africans). I wonder what that person thinks now. An African officer visiting Kingston once commented to me "...the Chinese are everywhere...", not in a complimentary way.


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## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2013)

In my experience, and it's a strictly personal and, therefore, very limited observation, the Chinese are very, often overtly _racist_.

     First: they _believe_ that they, alone, are "civilized people," and we, all of us, are _barbarians_ to one degree or another.

     Second: I _sense_ that there is a "pecking order" amongst we barbarians: other _Sinic_ Asians, Europeans, brown_ish_ people and, at the bottom, black people.

But that being said, the Chinese are _investing_ in Africa, not just sending aid (tied or not). That's better for the Africans ... or it will be, eventually, after they (the Africans) get used to the idea that they have to pay for the investments.

 :highjack:


Edit: spelling   :-[


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## CougarKing (25 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Second: I _sense_ that there is a "pecking order" amongst we barbarians: other _Sinic_ Asians, Europeans, brown_ish_ people and, at the bottom, black people.



You forgot the non-Sinic Asians in that pecking order, such as Indonesians, Filipinos, Malaysians, who they often group among the "brownish people." 

That's why the _Hua Qiao_(华侨)/overseas Chinese communities in Southeast Asian countries, such as in the Malaysian example you pointed out, often remain tightly-knit communities that prefer to intermarry among their own if they can't get their children a husband or bride from mainland China.  There are those who marry locals, but often these locals are of wealthier, landed status.

But I digress, since our last few posts are already getting off topic from the topic of Saudi Arabia.


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## Kirkhill (25 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In my experience, and it's a strictly personal and, therefore, very limited observation, the Chinese are very, often overtly _racist_.
> 
> First: they _believe_ that they, alone, are "civilized people," and we, al of us, are _barbarians_ to one degree or another.
> 
> ...




Silly people.....  

First:  They can't be civilized.  They're not British.

Second: They have the pecking order just about right - It is actually northern Europeans, southern Europeans, everybody else and the French

 >


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## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2013)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> You forgot the non-Sinic Asians in that pecking order, such as Indonesians, Filipinos, Malaysians, who they often group among the "brownish people."
> 
> That's why the _Hua Qiao_(华侨)/overseas Chinese communities in Southeast Asian countries, such as in the Malaysian example you pointed out, often remain tightly-knit communities that prefer to intermarry among their own if they can't get their children a husband or bride from mainland China.  There are those who marry locals, but often these locals are of wealthier, landed status.
> 
> But I digress, since our last few posts are already getting off topic from the topic of Saudi Arabia.




Agreed. Mods: may I suggest a split starting at pbi's post Reply #10, please?


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## Journeyman (25 Oct 2013)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Second: They have the pecking order just about right - It is actually northern Europeans, southern Europeans, everybody else and the French


The French actually made the list?  I _knew_ that Chunnel was a mistake!


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## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2013)

Relations between China and France have been strained over a range of issues and the Chinese government tried to organize a boycott of _Carrefour S.A._ which has 20+ _hypermarché_ stores in China. The boycott failed because _Carrefour_ offers good quality merchandise at low prices and, as with Japanese cars, the Chinese' sense of political outrage stops at their wallets.


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## pbi (25 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Relations between China and France have been strained over a range of issues ...



Two nations which richly deserve each other, if you ask me.

One interesting thought is how (if?) China might get involved as far as the Islamist/Christian violence in western Africa goes, particularly if that violence threatens either: a) Chinese nationals or properties; or b) friendly governments hosting and enabling a).

AFAIK, the Chinese are not big fans of Islamist trouble makers (Uighurs) or religious-based movements in general.


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## Edward Campbell (26 Oct 2013)

My _sense_ is that China's views on "Islamist trouble makers (Uighurs) or religious-based movements in general" go far beyond that. I have seen Chinese police enforce an entirely unofficial ban on face veils; I watched one female police officer (in a central China province with a fairly large and apparently, to me, _passive_ Muslim minority) literally tear a veil off a woman's face and offer her a paper breathing mask, instead. But she casually passed obviously non-Muslim Chinese women who were almost completely veiled in the amorphous over-garments that some Chinese women wear to protect their skins and clothing from both the sunlight and the ever present pollution. (Some Chinese women believe that a fair skin is beautiful and that a tanned skin indicates a "village woman" - someone who works in the fields all day.) I saw something similar in the Beijing Airport a couple of years ago: a Muslim lady, not Chinese, was refused ticketing until she removed her _burqa_.


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## Retired AF Guy (26 Oct 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> One interesting thought is how (if?) China might get involved as far as the Islamist/Christian violence in western Africa goes, particularly if that violence threatens either: a) Chinese nationals or properties; or b) friendly governments hosting and enabling a).



Already happened, albeit in eastern Africa, vice western Africa. From a Jan 2012 article in the Wall Street Journal:



> _More than 20 Chinese nationals were missing in Sudan after an attack by rebels at a construction company's work camp, according to Chinese state media, potentially complicating Beijing's efforts to ease tensions in a war-ravaged African nation that has become increasingly important to its oil needs._



 Article Link


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## tomahawk6 (27 Oct 2013)

The Royal Thai Army continues to fight islamists in the south that are using Malaysia as a base.


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## pbi (28 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> My _sense_ is that China's views on "Islamist trouble makers (Uighurs) or religious-based movements in general" go far beyond that.... I saw something similar in the Beijing Airport a couple of years ago: a Muslim lady, not Chinese, was refused ticketing until she removed her _burqa_.



I doubt that the Chinese (as a political entity, not so much as an ethnicity..) see any value in acceptance or tolerance of anybody or anything that isn't "with the program", including various minorities and religions they don't like.

While I do realize that China is not a monolithic ethnic block, and that there are more than just Han Chinese, I don't think that there is any sense of a need to accomodate anybody.

IMHO the Africans are going to find out that they are not the "friends" of the Chinese: they are just useful to them. It would interesting to see what would happen if China felt that its interests and its nationals were sufficiently at risk to do a little bit of its own "force projection" for a NEO or something like that.

And, once that force was "projected", and the immediate fire put out, whether or not it goes home or sticks around.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Oct 2013)

Each ethnic group in Malaysia disdains the other. Mind you the Chinese grudgingly respect the Indians for being hardworking. The current system of entitlements is unsustainable, the recent election cost the ruling party big time to retain their grip and required importing "new citizens" to ensure wins in certain districts. Newcomers who are not equipped to do well in Malaysia economy. Also the graph does not really pickup on the size of the illegal immigration problem, not to mention the swelling crime numbers. Add in a very young Malay population who have grown up with the expectation of entitlements that sooner or later will disappear. Meanwhile Islamic fundamentalists are preaching that it's all the non-believers fault to those young Malays.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Oct 2013)

Further anecdotal _evidence_ ...

Malaysia has a fairly large _expat_ community ~ largely Brits but some Canadians and Australians, too. They have a very active recruiting programme called Malysia My Second Home to entice expats to retire in Malaysia.

I was in Kuala Lumpur about 18 months ago and I had drinks one afternoon with a pair, then four, then six _expats_: four Brits and two Australians. The consensus was that they all loved Malaysia and the people ~ the much preferred the Malays to the Chinese but they also agreed that the two Chinese provinces, Penang and KL (the capital district) were the only sensible places to live. One couple told us their tale: they had lived, for many years, in an idyllic "hill station" town with a small but happy expat community. In the past year they had fallen victim tot he _Arabization_ of Malaysia. Their local pub ~ owned an operated for many years by a Malay family ~ suddenly closed because the new, Egyptian, _iman_ disapproved on Malays serving alcohol to foreigners. Then the Chinese doctor move out, apparently in response to some pressures from the Malay community. Then the expats all followed, moving to KL where, as Colin P has explained, there is first rate health care and all the modern conveniences. They were sorry to leave their lovely little "hill station" and sad to have to cope with the hustle and bustle of KL but they needed, at about age 75, the _security_ which the Chinese province provides.


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## CougarKing (30 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> the two Chinese provinces, Penang and KL (the capital district) were the only sensible places to live.



While China's foreign policy always emphasized non-interference in the affairs of another sovereign nation (save for the 1950 Chinese occupation of Tibet, whom some PRC-backed Chinese historians have considered a part of historical China proper)...

Would Beijing have a possible interest in stirring these two Malaysian provinces' ethnic Chinese further toward separatism?

While I am not sure if Malaysian Chinese elite or the majority Malay _Bhumpitera_ have greater control of the Malaysian military, but in other ASEAN nations such as Thailand and the Philippines, members of the Chinese minority even rose to flag/general rank in those nations' militaries, such as Admiral Guillermo Wong of the Philippine Navy.

However, the Malaysian military's upcoming joint exercises with the PLA seem to have caught other ASEAN members by surprise. 



> China, Malaysia to hold first ever joint military drill next year
> _By: Agence France-Presse
> October 30, 2013 6:22 PM_
> 
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (31 Oct 2013)

Not really. even during the Emergency Beijing criticized Chin Peng's timing of the revolt saying the conditions for a successfully revolution were not there. (Chin Peng in his book supports the existence of the domino theory and that China did intend to take over SEAsia, but on it's timetable). A successful Malaysia is not a threat to China and likely has value as a trading partner and stabilizing influence. However if Chinese people are being badly mistreated, I suspect China will notice and bring some sort of pressure to bear.


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## CougarKing (10 Nov 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Second: I _sense_ that there is a "pecking order" amongst we barbarians: other _Sinic_ Asians, Europeans, brown_ish_ people and, at the bottom, black people.



Here is a film that best exemplifies that dynamic. 

"Ilo Ilo" is about the relationship between a Singapore family and their Filipino maid/domestic helper.

Thousands of Filipina women work in Hong Kong and Singapore as maids/"domestic helpers", sometimes enduring mistreatment and dehumanizing conditions at the hands of their employers just to get better pay than they would in the Philippines. Some are even teachers or other professionals, but who have resorted to being maids because of the better pay. The common term in Cantonese for maid is "Ama"(阿嬷 and is derogatory. 
  
I find it interesting that the title in Mandarin is "Ba Ma bu zai jia(爸媽不在家)" which means "father and mother are not home" while I assume the actual international title is just the city of Iloilo in the central Philippines.

Interaksyon (Philippine news site)

Ilo Ilo (爸媽不在家) youtube trailer



> ‘Ilo Ilo’ now ranked No. 7 in Indiewire’s Oscar predictions list for Best Foreign Language Film
> 
> *After cracking the Top 10 of Indiewire, a reputable news site’s Oscar predictions for the Best Foreign Language Film category last month, Singapore’s “Ilo Ilo” has moved up three notches to claim the No. 7 spot.*
> 
> ...


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## Edward Campbell (10 Nov 2013)

Good catch, SMA.

It's important to understand that _remittances_ (money sent home by Philippines overseas workers) constitute the largest single component of the Philippines' economy. The women, Pinays, are bigger and better at _remitting_ than are men, the Pinoys.

Domestic service anywhere is less than desirable employment: Asian families are demanding and parsimonious and there are many, many proven cases of abuse, including sexual abuse. But, I am assured by people who do know, the situations in East Asia are good, even excellent compared to the Middle East. Yet Philippines people still flock to the Middle East for the jobs. The Arabs, especially in KSA and the Gulf states, are unwilling (unqualified?) to do many jobs and Philippines people are, broadly and generally, well educated, especially the women, and willing to work long and hard.

The stories told in the film are, I am certain, real. But I met a couple of OFWs (Overseas Filipino Workers) in HK and SG, working for friends or friends of friends, and they were seemed reasonable happy with their work and salaries. But HK and SG are, generally, law abiding societies; that's not the case in the Middle East. It was one of those workers, with experience in both regions, who told me she would never, ever go back to the Gulf (I suspect she was raped there, it appears to be distressingly normal).


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## pbi (11 Nov 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Good catch, SMA.
> 
> Domestic service anywhere is less than desirable employment: Asian families are demanding and parsimonious and there are many, many proven cases of abuse, including sexual abuse. But, I am assured by people who do know, the situations in East Asia are good, even excellent compared to the Middle East. Yet Philippines people still flock to the Middle East for the jobs. The Arabs, especially in KSA and the Gulf states, are unwilling (unqualified?) to do many jobs and Philippines people are, broadly and generally, well educated, especially the women, and willing to work long and hard....



OK now I'm going to jump into the shark pool of non-PC-ness. 

Your comment here reflects something that I noticed in Mozambique when I was there in 93: that nobody treated Mozambican domestics worse than the rich Mozambicans. We had three local domestics working in our Canadian UNMO house: we paid them well and regularly, and told them they could have anything else they needed such as items from our medical cases or food items. (Primarily to discourage theft)

  No doubt part of this may have been driven by our white, middle-class discomfort at having blacks work as "servants", but I believe we also did what seemed fair for people trying to support famiiies in a wrecked economy.

What we learned as time went on, and I mastered more Portuguese, was that as a rule the locals did not like to work for Mozambicans. Our domestics mentioned things such as being paid poorly or not at all, or physical abuse and other mistreatment. Sexual abuse was never mentioned, but given the cultural attitudes prevalent in southern Africa, that was probably happening too.

I saw further evidence of this when  (as happened many times...) a little beggar boy approached me on one of the main avenues in the capital city, Maputo. By this time I spoke enough Portuguese to tease him a bit. I pointed across the street to a well-dressed Mozambican woman climbing out of a black Mercedes and asked why he didn't beg from her. He took one look, then turned back and said "Nao, nao!" (no, no) and mimicked being beaten. He knew this was what he could expect from a rich Mozambican.

IMHO we have been brought up to believe that the only people who ever mistreat the poor, or discriminate against minorities, are us nasty wicked white people. In fact, we used to sit around a beer in our UNMO house sometimes, musing about how we could explain to folks back home what we had witnessed, without being dismissed as "racist".

In fact, I think it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with race (which is a set of physical and genetic characteristics that actually have no direct bearing on behaviour) and everything to do with culture. These employers do not mistreat the serving classes because they (the masters) have yellow skin or brown skin or black skin, etc. They do it because they see their servants as inferiors.

IMHO, you will look very long and very hard in these cultures we are discussing, to ever find a "Downton Abbey" type of relationship between servants and those served (as idealized as that may be). You are (again IMHO) much more likely to find parsimony, harsh treatment, and possibly abuse.


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## Edward Campbell (11 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> ...
> In fact, I think it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with race (which is a set of physical and genetic characteristics that actually have no direct bearing on behaviour) and everything to do with culture. These employers do not mistreat the serving classes because they (the masters) have yellow skin or brown skin or black skin, etc. They do it because they see their servants as inferiors.
> 
> IMHO, you will look very long and very hard in these cultures we are discussing, to ever find a "Downton Abbey" type of relationship between servants and those served (as idealized as that may be). You are (again IMHO) much more likely to find parsimony, harsh treatment, and possibly abuse.




Bingo!   :goodpost:


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## jollyjacktar (11 Nov 2013)

The divide between rich and poor can be hard to reel in for those of us who have it so very good in places like Canada.  The first shanty towns I viewed in South Africa were shocking.  What was more distressing was seeing a "well heeled" housing estate and on the other side of a long wooden fence was the shanty town of all the servants who worked in said estate.  I wondered how they (the estate folks) could sleep easy in their beds at night knowing the living conditions of their servants literally next door.  

My wife lived in her previous life in places such as the ME and Nigeria.  She told me horror stories of how many of these domestics were treated by their employers.  It may be "cultural", but it's not "cultured" by any means.


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Nov 2013)

Remittance from Indonesian maids working in Malaysia is also an important source of money for that country. Not to mention the illegal workforce. Funny how the Malays seem more sympathetic to their "Palestinian Muslim brothers"  than to their "Indonesian Muslim kin". Distance does make the heart grow fonder.


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