# 'It's time to consolidate NDHQ' & 'DND to take-over Nortel Campus' (Merged threads)



## x westie

The MND speaking at the Royal Canadian Mititary Istitute was told by audience members that ND HQ is "top heavy with officers" a resource decision that is hindering the country's ability to put troops on the ground abroad, the MND responded that" he has been impressed with Defence Department personnel he has met so far", in other words ,nothing is going to change, this minister has "no balls", "The Gong Show" continues, bring on the clowns!!


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## Infanteer

Refernces?


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## x westie

Globe and Mail-  Thursday, Sept 23-2004


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## McG

x westie said:
			
		

> ... in other words ,nothing is going to change, this minister has "no balls", "The Gong Show" continues, bring on the clowns!!


So, which NDHQ jobs would you cut?


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## c4th

I would not cut a single one.  I would however entertain the idea of moving NDHQ in it's entirety to a training area in the middle of nowhere (say similar to Pet, Gage, or Wainwright) and put the parking lot 8 to 10 km away from the front door.  Standing Orders would indicate that all pers are required to report to work in Marching Order.

This may eliminate the need to cut NDHQ jobs at the public's expense, as they would effectively eliminate themselves.  I also wager that 'clothe the soldier' and the next generation of field equipment would not take the better part of a career to hit our backs.


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## Michael OLeary

And how does forcing someone to quit, since you seem to assume your measures will do this, also make their responsibilities, and the requirement for those responsibilities to be done, disappear as well? I suspect the result would only be fewer people trying to do more and longer times for projects to reach completion. Despite the bashing of the staff that seems to be a favourite sport of some, no-one has yet identified which departments in NDHQ have no useful function and can disappear or work at a slower pace with fewer or lower-ranking and less experienced staff.

National Defence Headquarters Organizational Chart   --   http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/dgsp/00native/tools/NDHQ_Org_Chart_e.doc

National Defence Headquarters: Does it Work? By /par Colonel Douglas L. Wingert  --  http://198.231.69.12/papers/nssc4/wingert.doc


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## x westie

I wouldn't be surprised that there are more officers in the CF now than in WW2 ,when Canada had    3 Infantry Divisions, 2 Armoured Divs,plus Artillery Regiments ,engineers etc, over seas in Europe, its only common sense there is no need for a pile of officers in all three services of a combined strength of 50,000 plus some 13,000 reservervis ts, if the MND can;t do the math,then he is about as " smart as a fence post" .


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## McG

x westie said:
			
		

> if the MND can;t do the math,then he is about as " smart as a fence post" .


Show us you're no worse.   What jobs should be cut?


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## Garbageman

A little off topic, but any new word on moving NDHQ out to the burbs?  I know consideration was being given to this plan to free up the prime real estate and to take advantage of a newly vacated high tech facility (Nortel in Kanata maybe?)


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## Scoobie Newbie

So how could the Canadian military operate with roughly the same amount of officers in WW2 with a much larger military vs today with a substantially smaller military?


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## Gunnerlove

Members of the canadian military were more concerned with beating the Nazis and less concerned with empire building. 

I wonder how many civilians work at NDHQ?
I wonder how many officers work at NDHQ?
I wonder how many NCMs work at NDHQ?
I wonder how much money we spend on NDHQ?

I would also like to see the number of officers in the CF compared to the number of NCMs then again it might make me sick like when I heard we had 33 generals.

If the CF was a public company the shareholders would be going insane trying to hang the BOG.


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## QORvanweert

I think that it is better to have a top heavy system so when the time comes we can fill out the lower ranks then a bottom heavy system with overworked officers and a non-existent general base. A few poor privates will incur higher casualities, but incompetent leadership will lose the war.


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## Gunnerlove

What you just posted is part of the cold war doctrine. Alas the cold war is over and we are short soldiers that are needed now. I think a balanced system would make more sense as everyone could take one or two steps up the ladder and not be lost. Thinking that you can fill vast units with undertrained privates and still achieve victory because you had some officers who have been flying a desk for years leading them into battle is a product of the residual class system we are forced to work within. 

Our strength should come from the troops.


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## Goober

Top heavy? Easy fix. Fill out the bottom.


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## GINge!

Garbageman said:
			
		

> of a newly vacated high tech facility (Nortel in Kanata maybe?)



combining all of NDHQ into one location would be a great idea. Cheaper in the long run in terms of the rent paid at LSL. I think the building they were looking at was JDS Uniphase in Barrhaven/Nepean


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## Garbageman

GINge! said:
			
		

> combining all of NDHQ into one location would be a great idea. Cheaper in the long run in terms of the rent paid at LSL. I think the building they were looking at was JDS Uniphase in Barrhaven/Nepean



That's the one I was thinking of, thanks!  

Duh, my cousin used to work at JDS!


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## GINge!

CFL said:
			
		

> So how could the Canadian military operate with roughly the same amount of officers in WW2 with a much larger military vs today with a substantially smaller military?



You ever been on a rifle range? Then you know the planning effort and staff required to run a range for only 1 shooter is practically the same as for 20. Similarly, the purchase of 66 MGS takes as much staff work as 20,000 Shermans.


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## Scoobie Newbie

Actually if you've been to a range you will notice that the staff would greatly be reduced for 1 shooter vs 20.   1 guy in the butts, not 20 (that guy could even be the butts NCO).   1 support staff to adjust the shooters sites and give out tips instead of 1 for 3 to 4 shooters.   So I just cut down the staff about 22 pers.   Yes I am aware that you still need an ammo NCO regardless of numbers as well as a saftey driver etc.  My point is you can still cut a lot of the management.


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## 291er

I find it amusing that a lot of these opinions come from civvies, ppl in the recruiting process, or ppl who have never served here at NDHQ.


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## devil39

I will preface my comments with the fact that I have never served in NDHQ.   I certainly will at some point I am sure.

That being said, when I was a soldier operating solely in the lower tactical level, with lots of Infantry battalion time, I quite regularly had occasion to feel certain amounts of ill will toward my fellow officers serving in NDHQ.   Likely unfounded as I was soon to discover.

I now quite regularly deal with the Land Staff as a Staff Officer in an Area Headquarters (for the last 2 months), and I have been continually impressed with the work ethic, responsibility, sheer volume of output, and the long hours put in by those I deal with on a regular basis.   It is not unusual for me to call up the Land Staff at 1730 - 1800 hrs Eastern Standard Time, and talk to an overworked staff officer who is putting in the long hours required to keep the required information and direction flowing downward to their subordinate headquarters.

There might be places to trim in NDHQ, but the people I deal with on the Land Staff need augmentation, not cuts, to keep up with the volume and complexity of the issues they deal with.

I would, as others have, ask where those cuts should occur?   No one that I deal with on a daily basis is superfluous to accomplishing the mission.


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## Acorn

I'd like to echo devil39's point that staffies at the Twin Towers of Doom (or the associated annexes) do work long hours. They get little credit, and loads of stick from "the field," yet they work harder than officers in the units, from what I've seen. 

Those at the "centre" can often lose sight of life at the sharp end, but don't think they are a bunch of lazy sods.

Acorn


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## Infanteer

Thanks for bringing this one back to earth Devil and Acorn.

Although I've been one to comment on perceived organizational irregularities, I've never attempted to dump it on the Staff Officers who get posted to Ottawa.  Sticking the blame on them, referring to "The Gong Show" and "bringing on the clowns", is really unfair and is akin to getting mad at a cop for giving you a speeding ticket; the guy is only trying to do the job assigned to him by his superiors.


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## NavyGrunt

Infanteer said:
			
		

> is really unfair and is akin to getting mad at a cop for giving you a speeding ticket; the guy is only trying to do the job assigned to him by his superiors.




that and you were speeding...... ;D


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## Infanteer

The point was that getting mad at the cop will do no good as he doesn't set the speed limit.


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## Lance Wiebe

Where to cut is a good question.

Am I wrong in saying that there are over 100 "general equivelent" working at NDHQ?  That there are actually more civilians than military running departments?  WHY?

Something has to be done about the ever-growing size of the civilian component of NDHQ.

I also think that there is one other place to cut.  For the life of me, I can't figure out why we have our normal chain of command, Minister, to CDS to Army to Area to Unit/Base, plus we have a Divisional HQ in Kingston.  What Division?  Where, exactly, do they fit in to the chain of command?

This really confuses me. ???


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## Lance Wiebe

Oh, I also forgot to add, why is there fully manned, but zero funded PMO's?


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## PPCLI Guy

devil39 said:
			
		

> There might be places to trim in NDHQ, but the people I deal with on the Land Staff need augmentation, not cuts, to keep up with the volume and complexity of the issues they deal with.



 I agree wholeheartedly.  I had the opportunity to deal with the Land Staff over the last two years from the same kind of vantage point as Devil39, and I cannot say enough about the dedication and professionalism displayed by the LS.  I have never subscribed to the theory that the higher headquarters must, by its very nature, be evil/incompetent/lazy etc.  I have learned that they simply see problems (and their solutions) in a different context than the lower headquarters/unit/formation - and that is to be expected in a hierarchical organisation.

I too have never served in NDHQ - and yet I sense its inevitability.  There are many officers and SNCOs that I respect and implicitly trust (based on their soldiering abilities and tactical skills) that have served there - and I do not think it likely that they suddenly became evil/lazy/incompetent on arrival at 101 Colonel By.  Much has been said in many threads about "walking a mile in my shoes" etc etc.  Perhaps the aphorism could just as easily be applied to those that throw stones at NDHQ.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote from Goober,
Top heavy? Easy fix. Fill out the bottom.

Goober, I usually look forward to your posts with as much dread as certain parts of a yearly physical.
But when your on .........     
Bruce


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## GINge!

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> Oh, I also forgot to add, why is there fully manned, but zero funded PMO's?



the Matrix way of tasking perhaps? Just because a project has no funds, doesn't mean there's no reqr for loads of prep staff work.


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## Brad Sallows

Goober has pretty much pinned it down.  Just because you've been starving and you'd like to gain back a few pounds of muscle doesn't mean you can trade in your liver.  NDHQ looks large only because we've drawn down the deployable forces so far.


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## Infanteer

So, if I'm getting this right; our NDHQ is organizationally "left over" from when we had 100,000 troops and a Brigade in Europe?


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Which would make sense. The number of admin channels would not change with the decrease in troops, just the amount of work required for each channel. And I'm pretty sure that decrease in work has been supplemented by all the new PC kife that has come down the pipe since then.


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## McG

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> For the life of me, I can't figure out why we have our normal chain of command, Minister, to CDS to Army to Area to Unit/Base, plus we have a Divisional HQ in Kingston. What Division? Where, exactly, do they fit in to the chain of command?


We do not have a Div HQ.  There is a Joint HQ in Kingston which contributes to every overseas deployment we have going.  Within the CFJOG there are other formations and units (just like any other CF higher formation) that are outside the three enviroments.


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## PPCLI Guy

Infanteer said:
			
		

> So, if I'm getting this right; our NDHQ is organizationally "left over" from when we had 100,000 troops and a Brigade in Europe?



In a purely numerical sense, that is probably true.  I think however that you will find that there have been a number of changes in the way in which NDHQ is organised since those heady days.  To start, FMC is gone, and folded into the greater maw in 101.  The J Staff has been established etc etc.  PMOs have grown like weeds, and we have had a massive increase in the number of Sigs types (IIRC Signals Officers are now the largest single officer classification in the military).  With deeper analysis, I propose that what we would find is that an Industrial Age HQ of 100,000 to 120,000 was the same size as an Information Age HQ of 60,000.


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## Lance Wiebe

OK, thanks McG.

But I still have the "why".  

We have several layers of HQ now.  Do we still need another one in Kingston?  You say they contribute to every mission.  Does that mean we have unemployed staff officers sitting around waiting deployment?

I guess what I am really asking, is this a luxury we can afford?


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## McG

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> But I still have the "why".


Read this: Canadian Forces Joint Operations Group 
If you still have questions on the formation's utility you might be able to ask some of the questions there.


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## logau

Suggest you see this book

Failure in High Command, by LCol (Ret) Jack English - 1991 ISBN 0-919614-60-4 which lays out the need for a peacetime HQ and what it does.

What it does is fight for the survival of the forces when their is no war.

In addition to this is works with other government departments among them being PWGSC to buy the kit and services the military needs.

Unfortunately this may be hidden or invisible from most soldiers who wear combats in the regular or reserve armed forces in Canada. 

Two other points for you

I have read (can't remember the exact source) that if DND is compared to the UK Armed Forces it appears that DND is funded at 25% of the comparable level that the Brits are. This alone leads to a better understanding of why progress seems so slow in the military in Canada. there truly isn't much money compared to other departments --- you should see a paper I wrote a short while ago here Canadian US Relations (1900 â â€œ 2003) http://www.donlowconcrete.com/USA/  and this page http://www.donlowconcrete.com/USA/consensus.htm

What it means in a nutshell is

DND gets no votes for the government - they think they can keep under funding it and get away with it - and they will not be called to account - just look at the sponsorship scandal, the Jane Stewart Scandal, the SeaKing Scandal.

Does anyone care? I really think they don't - In the paper I show above I found a quote from the Conference Board of Canada which said - Canadians do not feel threatened and as long as this is FACT they will not prepare in a meaningful way.

But we'll have a warm and fuzzy from a new re-developed DND space at Downsview and many other boon doggles. 

You see? They even bought off the RCMI which is why heads will never roll.

Where to start? DND has a plan which is un funded - means a major expansion of the reserves

Send me your ideas on what to fix as I am writing another paper and if nothing else we can put them on line and then bombard all MPs to say that they have a heck of a mess on their hands. 

But why re-write history? DND knows the solution which is laid out here at the 2003   Final Report of the Minister's Monitoring Committee on Change.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/reports/mmcc/final_report_e.asp

an extract - On 3 April 2003 the Minister of National Defence (MND), the Honourable John McCallum, announced the start of Land Force Reserve Restructure (LFRR) Phase II as per the Government Policy Statement of 6 October 2000.[21] LFRR Phase II will provide funding for an immediate increase of 750 Army Reservists in fiscal year 2003/2004 and another 750 in 2004/2005. The overall goal, within constraints on resources, remains to increase the Army Reserve (Militia) to 18,500, and additional monies will be set aside to address the equipment needs associated with the new capabilities of the Army Reserve. On 13 May 2003 the Minister re-emphasized that "LFRR is a critical project, and I am determined that Phase 2 will preserve the Army Reserve as a national institution and transform its operational potential to meet Canada's needs in the 21st Century."[22] After assuring the Monitoring Committee on 9 June that he did not wish Progress Report II to gather dust on some shelf, the Minister issued a tasking order to the Department in the full realization that a corporate DND/CF response was required."

althought these are high sounding words - if you scan this board for links to a post I made in MArch April of this year you'll see this link on the HOmeland Defence COnference in Mar 2004 http://www.stratnet.ucalgary.ca/reserves2004/index.htm and then click the publications link - IF YOU DO NOTHING ELSE READ JACK ENGLISH'S PAPER ON WHERE THE REGULAR AND RESERVE ARMY FIT INSIDE DND - http://www.stratnet.ucalgary.ca/reserves2004/publications/english.doc

Next steps --- draft a letter to Minister of National Defence - ask them - how much of the reports recommendatiosn have been implemented, and when the remainder will be funded and delivered. You can send this as a private citizen (barrack room lawyers need not reply to this) 

Send me a message if you can't read any of the links above and I will email you privately

OK - all you ruck sack luggers - get going!      - you have your reading assignments.


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## Cloud Cover

Logau ... I don't know if it is just my browser, but some of the font in your posts appears unusually large.


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## Infanteer

He's yelling at us....


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## GINge!

Got this from a Patricia in DLR-5 today, its from the UK, but it can be applied to us too  

STAFF GUIDANCE ON DEFENCE RESTRUCTURING


1.	 This guidance is being issued to remedy a perceived difficulty experienced by Staff at all levels in understanding the rationale behind recent Defence  re-structuring.  In particular many Staff Officers seem not to understand how reducing the numbers of aircraft, ships, tanks, artillery and soldiers results in a more flexible, robust and effective fighting force. 

2. 	In particular it seems that much of the confusion stems from a systemic misunderstanding of the correct use of military terminology.  A list of common terms and actual meanings follows.  

3.	In addition there follows an explanation of the key assumptions embedded within the Defence Review.   All Staff Officers are encouraged to seek clarification through their Chain of Command if they still have any questions. 

4.	Staff Terminology used in the new Defence Plan;

Term				MOD meaning

Flexible- 	a. 	Smaller
	b.	Unable to operate unless under US protection

Robust-	a.	Smaller
	b.	Lacking reserves or regeneration capability

Networked- Smaller, but still unable to talk to each other 

Capable-	Smaller

Agile-	Really, really small

Deployability- Method of making the Forces, primarily the Army, able to send higher percentages of their manpower to a distant location.  This is achieved by reducing the overall numbers involved, i.e. â Å“In future the Army will be able to send 50% of it's manpower to Africa in the back of a Cessna, thus achieving greater deployabilityâ ?. 

Reach- The distance the American's are willing to fly us

Efficient-	Much, much smaller

Streamlined- Just unbelievably small

Just in time- For the funeral. 

Integrated-	 Process by which all three services get to brief against each other in public leaks, attempting to justify and defend their own budget against cuts, thereby doing the Treasury's work for them. Taken to extremes by the Army in which Corps and Regiments fight each other, and perfected within the Infantry. 

Technically ambitious-	a. 	Slang, as in â Å“He was being a bit technically ambitious when he tried to drive that car through the wallâ ?  (cf, â Å“To propose a Bowmanâ ?)

b.	Description of the far future

Reserves-	Integral part of current Operational Manning. 

Rationalisation- a. 	Cuts

b. Psychological term, meaning to use complicated arguments to avoid facing unpalatable truths,  i.e. , â Å“we don't need to pay for both expensive servicemen and equipment, because we will be networked, agile,  and technically ambitiousâ ? . 

Rapid-	Used in a comparative sense, as in â Å“The rapid erosion of the Himalayan Mountains...â ?

Modernisation-	Cuts

Radical-	Deep Cuts

Transformation-	Really Deep Cuts

Sustainable-	Assuming zero casualties, no leave and no emergencies. 

Sentences such as  â Å“these proposals capture our aim for a speedy deployable, agile, joint and integrated, technically ambitious defence capabilityâ ? will make more logical sense to the experienced Staff Officer once the above definitions are applied. 

4.	It will also help if Staff Officer's bear in mind the following Planning Principles.  Point C will be of particular relevance in explaining the rationale behind restructuring to Junior Staff.

a.	Use of Special Forces.  No one in the general Public has a clue how many there are, so they can be announced as deploying to every country in the world. 

b.    Aggressive use of terminology can compensate for lack of actual forces.  For example in the past effective deterrence of a reasonably capable Maritime threat would require the despatch of a task force, consisting of destroyers, frigates, submarines and possibly even a carrier.  In the future this task will still be achieved by a task force; but task-force will be the new description for a mine-sweeper. 

c. 	The new Defence Plan was not resource driven.  A comprehensive strategic estimate was conducted, from first principles, identifying the current and potential threats to the UK and it's interests, allowing a reserve for the unexpected, and also allowing for recurrent non-warfighting tasks such as Fire Strike cover and Foot and Mouth disease.  Against the tasks identified an ideal manpower establishment and Task Org was then identified.  By an amazing coincidence it happened to fit almost exactly within current Treasury MOD expenditure plans, and even allow the MOD to carry half the costs of Iraq and Afghanistan. 

d. 	Much of the current crisis in Defence Spending can be directly traced to the high costs of legacy equipments.  These were ordered at a time of ignorance in the past when Planners naively seemed to believe that the threat they identified as imminent would remain the same for the 20-30 year service life of the equipment they were ordering.  The assumption in the 1980's and 90's that tanks, artillery, and aircraft would be needed in the future was ridiculous, as none of these equipments have been used by the British Armed forces to any degree since the Falklands war. 
However, current planners possess better foresight and are able to predict future threats for at least the next 40 years.  We are therefore able to be certain that Britain is unlikely to need any tanks, aircraft, submarines etc. past about 2015. 

e.	Britain no longer needs a significant anti-submarine capability.  No other nation possesses submarines in any numbers, submarine technology is unlikely to advance at all over the next few 30 years, and should anti-submarine technology or skills be required at any point in the future they can be reconstituted overnight from the reserves.  (Once the reserves have been reconstituted).   In any case by 2020 the UK will be fully integrated into mainland Europe, and will therefore no longer have a coastline to defend or be reliant upon sea-supply.  

f. 	Similar arguments apply to air defence. 

g.	The Regimental System.  In the past the Regimental System has been seen as the corner-stone of British Military success, creating a system in which the individual is made to feel part of a greater family, often stretching back hundreds of years, in which he is nurtured and developed, and to which he feels such great loyalty that he is inspired to sacrifice himself if need be for his Regimental comrades.  However, the British youth of today are so naturally self-sacrificing and community spirited that additional incentives are now unnecessary, and in any case the threat to soldiers on the ground has been assumed away.  There is therefore no further need for a system whose main purpose is to generate fighting spirit, and it can be safely emasculated to achieve administrative efficiency (see â Å“Efficientâ ? above). 

h.	High divorce rates within the Services will solve manpower crises, by ensuring all service personnel will be happy to conduct back-to-back tours forever, as no one will have any families or friends to miss. 

i.	Savings will be ploughed into the purchase of large numbers of hats.  This will be essential as in future everyone will be at least treble or quadruple hatted.  Wars will be fought in rotation on a strict â Å“first come, first servedâ ? basis. 

k.	Future savings will be made by abolishing all training for the Chiefs of Staff.  After all they haven't proven remotely as effective at manoeuvre warfare, disruption, dislocation or divide-and-rule as the Treasury. 

l.	Successive efficiency measures can be made to reinforce each other.  For example, each time troop numbers are cut, a unit can then be tasked to conduct the same jobs as before. Provided there are no actual massacres of Friendly Forces, the new troop numbers can be seen to have been fully as effective as the previous numbers, and so can form a baseline for achieving efficiency cuts to new troop numbers.  Savings can then be invested in new equipment, in the same way that British Airways fires half its pilots every time it needs to buy a new plane.  The ultimate aim is to have one man, but equipped like Dr Octopus.  He will sleep with one eye open at all times to replicate full manning. 

m.	Key Assumptions:   Current levels of operations are an aberration, will never be repeated, and should form no guide to current manning requirements, let alone future ones.  Gerry Adams has embraced peace, there is no more requirement for crowd control in Northern Ireland, the FBU have forsworn strikes along with all other key public workers, Osama Bin Laden is about to hand himself in and the Easter Bunny will be providing Area Air Defence for London. 

5.	More detailed guidance can be found in JSP 4708- â Å“Magic Mushrooms, their consumption, effects and results in the MODâ ? and Minister Hoon's Autobiography â Å“What Colour is the Sky in My World?â ?


{CHOtS SIGNED}

I M Promoted
SO2 Spin
Ministry of Truth
Orwell Bldg
MOD 1984


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## Long in the tooth

GINge! - I really like that!  Your obviously a big fan of Yes Minister!


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## logau

Ref my large typing - is the font control feature

For all you true blue ruck sack luggers - why NDHQ is dysfunctional is as follows

They don't reply to email or letters telling them to do anything. Its all a 1 to 1 relationship where by if you want somethign done you have to walk around and make people do it. If you could send a tasking sideways or up or down any argument for NDHQ reduction might make sense. 

Imagine a jungle where many tribes live who do not see the power of a central control as legitamate

Airforce goes after the army goes after the navy - and its a real furball dogfight to do anything at Fort Fumble.

Thats NDHQ - or Iraq without the bullets and bombs


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## Kirkhill

> Thats NDHQ - or Iraq without the bullets and bombs



So THAT's the reason they don't buy any of those.   >


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## logau

hey - they are way ahead of you ref your stand and wait line at the bottom of your post.

PM Louis St Laurent launched the CF circa 1948 - 1968 and he's memorialised in Hull Quebec where the DND support teams live - the people who buy and manage all the kit in the CF inventory.

The building looks out a multi-million building housing the Hull Casino............................ Uncle Louis's bldg is known as 

Louis Stand Around


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## Cdn Blackshirt

As a civvie, tell me where the following logic breaks down....

The military is an organization. 
An organization is designed to deliver a service (or product which is not applicalbe in this case)
The service required determines equipment and personnel.
The equipment and personnel determine the support structures, logistics and org chart.

Bottom Line:   I simply cannot fathom an executive that would erode its revenues, income, whatever (pick a metric) by 40% and not makes cuts to itself in order to re-invest whatever it could to minimize the damage to the underlying service.

33 generals???   Give me a break.   There are no justifiable excuses.   There is only a clearly demonstrated mutually-supported culture of self-interest and to see where that is guaranteed to go, check Enron....




CB.


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## logau

Blackie

You are 100% right (in my opinion) about the executives not reducing their revenue.......and the rest of your post.

Its not the executives - aka the Generals or the Full Colonels or the Legions of burned  out Chief Warrant Officer cheerleaders, who, like many of us at NDHQ are only bobble heads.

It is, and has been clearly demonstrated in numerous public and private sources, that the Canadian Taxpayer is the idiot - who, through his ready acceptance of other government services/bribes/cake and theatre, denies the men and women of the CF - the equipment and capabilities to lay a such a thumping on an enemy of the country that they will never think of looking sideways at us.

So Blackie - we have seen the enemy and he is us!   :threat: :skull:


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## TCBF

rifleman said:
			
		

> TCBF - Now you are talking sense. There is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water.
> 
> But now we can get back to the strawman..... amalgamate units



- Lets amalgamate NDHQ.  Build a new building at Connaught Ranges.  Pull all of those understrength and over-ranked cells out of Ottawa Center and the Gatineau, and put them into one gated compound five hundred meters from the rifle range.  Think of the savings!


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## Edward Campbell

If only it was so simple.

While arbitrary cuts to NDHQ are generally good ideas every few years – no multimillion dollar consultant reports required, thank you, just 5% across the board, no questions asked or answered – real, major reform of the system requires political will that has been totally absent in Ottawa since 1967.

Although I have been retired for many, many years I remain confident in my _guesstimate_  that the *centre* in Ottawa (Privy Council Office, Treasury Board Secretariat, Department of Finance) mistrusts DND because it is poorly led, at the top bureaucratic and military levels,*and even more poorly *managed*.

A Liberal MND, Don (_Thumper_) Macdonald, imposed the current “system” on NDHQ – trying, I think to correct the management defects that were evident then, 35+ years ago. He made things worse by mixing a few key functions – allowing senior military people to intrude into areas that are, quite frankly, beyond both their ken, in most cases, and certainly not in their area of responsibility, and by forcing senior bureaucrats into areas where they ought not to tread.

Add to that the fact that NDHQ is *not* about the CF – it is a major department of government: one that has a large staff and spends a lot of money. DND/NDHQ is a rich source of patronage. I don't think I'm telling tales out of school by telling you that during one of the regular rounds of cuts about 20 years ago DND’s _”general manager”_ (the VCDS) was told, explicitly I think, that while cuts and more were necessary and while efficiency was a laudable goal, there was to be no effort to consolidate NDHQ in Ontario – all or part of it was to stay in Québec (then Hull, now Gatineau). Since here was no way to move it all there, without spending hundreds of millions, it was to remain split. I  do not believe that political direction has changed or will change. There is, politically, no way to reduce the national government's footprint in Québec – nor is there any good reason (beyond a massive downsizing of the whole thing) to do so – and no one in the “centre” wants to endure the _Sturm und Drang_ of the civil service unions that would be occasioned by replacing DND/NDHQ (in Gatineau) with another government department.

So, indeed: reduce, reuse, recycle and reorganize - but don't hope for much.

DND/NDHQ needs reform, starting with excellent *management*, at the top of both the bureaucratic and military heaps. If it gets that then some administrative reform can be made in Ottawa.

That being said, it's a great idea, TCBF.

----------

* Yes, that includes Gen. Hillier! No one disputes his skill as an operational military commander but he is asked required to be more than that and I'm not sure that he has achieved anything like approval for his overall leadership – including, especially, the _transformation_ exercise.



Edit: typo - "... cuts to NDHQ are generally go*o*d ideas every few years ...". While my ideas are, in my tiny mind, god likeI really meant to say good.


----------



## McG

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ...there was to be no effort to consolidate NDHQ in Ontario – all or part of it was to stay in Québec (then Hull, now Gatineau). ...


That is too bad, because there is a lot to be gained from putting it all under one roof.  At the very least, the Army could look to ensure those scattered elements of the Land Staff get brought into the national capitol region:



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> The whole force development in the Army is impaired against doing this right.  While the force development & requirements folk are not in the same building, at least they are in the same city (basically).  However, with DLCD and doctrine in Kingston, the two halves of the Army's force development brain are not even close enough to sit together over coffee every other week & ensure they are working in the same step.
> 
> With equipment it stands out more because the wrong answer gets dumped on the troops & they have to make it work (or there is nothing & the troops still have to make things work).  When the doctrine side is missing, the troops make their own (which is a lot easier that fabricating vehicles, weapons & other kit in the field).  However, it seems to me that signs of the doctrine ball being dropped are plenty to be found.  The Infantry platoon & company doctrine is so badly out of date that it is hidden and not even available on the AEL.
> 
> When the field army runs into problems that require a fast & coherent response from the national headquarters, the solution is to create new ad-hoc organizations (like the CF C-IED TF) with PYs to do what should already be happening in existing staffs ... except that it is not because those staffs are so physically separated that good communication is not happening at the working levels.
> 
> ...


----------



## TCBF

logau said:
			
		

> IF YOU DO NOTHING ELSE READ JACK ENGLISH'S PAPER ON WHERE THE REGULAR AND RESERVE ARMY FIT INSIDE DND - http://www.stratnet.ucalgary.ca/reserves2004/publications/english.doc



- Love to.  Would you have a link that works?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Hey may not answer since that post is 2004 and he is a "Guest"


----------



## TCBF

Ex-fusilier said:
			
		

> I find it amusing that a lot of these opinions come from civvies, ppl in the recruiting process, or ppl who have never served here at NDHQ.



- Kind of like all of the other threads on this site.  We all often discuss places we have never been and things we have never done.  Ahhhh.....  the glory of the Internet.talk abou


----------



## TCBF

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Hey may not answer since that post is 2004 and he is a "Guest"



- Then how did my post from yesterday.... is this a merged thread?????!!!???


----------



## Neill McKay

MCG said:
			
		

> That is too bad, because there is a lot to be gained from putting it all under one roof.  At the very least, the Army could look to ensure those scattered elements of the Land Staff get brought into the national capitol region:



So, to sum up what has happened over the last 40 years: in trying to create a more efficient organization in which everyone is under the same roof and you don't have to walk the length of a city block to get anything done, we have instead created one that is too big to fit under any existing roof and is now at least as dispersed as the original three Service headquarters were.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> So, to sum up what has happened over the last 40 years: in trying to create a more efficient organization in which everyone is under the same roof and you don't have to walk the length of a city block to get anything done, we have instead created one that is too big to fit under any existing roof and is now *at least as dispersed as the original three Service headquarters were*.



Much more dispersed. Until _circa_ 1970 the three service HQs were clustered together in downtown Ottawa - with a few offices in other, nearby buildings. Now part of NDHQ is in the Pearkes Building (two 17+ story towers by the Rideau Canal) but much (most?) of it is scattered all over two cities: Ottawa and Gatineau.


----------



## TCBF

- Well, dispersion IS crucial to survival on a nuclear battlefield.

 8)


----------



## George Wallace

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Well, dispersion IS crucial to survival on a nuclear battlefield.
> 
> 8)



Only if you ARE NOT down wind and down river from a strategic targeted Nuclear facility outside a Military Reservation.... >


----------



## 54/102 CEF

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> So, to sum up what has happened over the last 40 years: in trying to create a more efficient organization in which everyone is under the same roof and you don't have to walk the length of a city block to get anything done, we have instead created one that is too big to fit under any existing roof and is now at least as dispersed as the original three Service headquarters were.



Not really - There`s the big building you see on TV then several other Complementary Bldgs around the City. Plus its as connected as any corporate HQ - but there are little power centres all over the place. 

Get this - Minister approves a project - then it continues to circulate for signature - then it gets re-approved and verified at the Treasury Board. Sounds like _big time duplication higher than DND  _ to me. 

Projects are supposed to start and stop in 28 months vs 108 months over ER Campbell's time. But obviously some will take longer and some shorter. If its a COTS project - Commercial Off the Shelf - it may look quicker but is it really?

So if the government could push the approval of certain levels of projects lower down - to say the Dept rather than the Dept plus Treasury Board - that could speed things up and make a spread out HQ greater than a pasture for some and a heart attack in the making for others.

Just my 2 cents as I ride the Shuttle to Point B from Point A.


----------



## Greymatters

Minor query, not a hijack:

Okay, Im confused - how did that 4 year gap get spanned?  Was this split from something else?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

We like to keep things info-friendly, so it was merged from another topic that swerved away from its original topic.

We're not just a bunch of pretty faces, ya know.......  :-*


----------



## The Bread Guy

First item here, shared in a new thread for those wanting to discuss it....


> .... Through the RFQ process, DCC intends to qualify potential development teams with the interest, capability and capacity to design, build, finance and maintain (DBFM) a new DEFENCE Department office and special purpose facility to be constructed in the greater Ottawa area utilizing a Public-Private-Partnership (P3) approach.  The facility will be located on a site owned by the Government of Canada. This upcoming opportunity will be of interest to developers with the capacity, either directly or through a consortium, for the design, construction, financing and management of a facility comprising a total of 72,000 rentable square metres of office, support and special purpose space, together with associated site development and infrastructure requirements ....


----------



## Occam

Another one with the same square footage as Pearkes.  Interesting.


----------



## mellian

They are going to move DND office? But really enjoyed seeing the current one across from Rideau Mall, seeing all the CF folks on taking OC transpo to places...oh and the past protest marches on MacKenzie bridge.


----------



## Occam

It wouldn't be replacing NDHQ (Pearkes).  The new one would be supplementing (and consolidating - one can dream, right?) the umpteen buildings that DND occupies in the NCR.


----------



## gcclarke

mellian said:
			
		

> They are going to move DND office? But really enjoyed seeing the current one across from Rideau Mall, seeing all the CF folks on taking OC transpo to places...oh and the past protest marches on MacKenzie bridge.



The Department of National Defence occupies, in whole or in part, over 40 buildings within the national capital region. While it is possible that this new building could be intended as a replacement for the current occupants of 101 Colonel By Drive, I highly doubt it. More likely it would be used to consolidate personnel currently scattered throughout the region. And of course, for additional capacity, which is frankly desperately needed. 

I wouldn't hold your breath on seeing 101 Col. By Drive emptying out anytime soon.


----------



## McG

mellian said:
			
		

> They are going to move DND office?


As stated, a consolidation of other workplaces seems more likely.  I’ve heard rumour of a Louis St. Laurent 2 in order to bring the Hotel de Ville crowd back to co-locate with DLR & DGLEPM, but the suggested plot of land wouldn’t fit what is described on the MERX.  In any case, consider the amount of floor space that DND already manages for NDHQ:


101 Col By74,660 m2 Louis St. Laurent 40,092 m2Constitution22,625 m2Startop20,769 m2400 Cumberland15,523 m2285 Coventry10,374 m24210 Labelle8,697 m2

… and that is just a selection of the buildings that DND manages.  There is another much longer list of PWGSC managed facilities that devote a significant amount of floor space to NDHQ

However, if we are going to make the investment in a new major construction, I would think we’d get the best value from one single massive building to consolidate the workspaces of all the others.  Sure, there would be a large capital cost at the front end, but I wonder what we could save down the road with:

simpler facilities management requirements (smaller staff because they only worry about one place) 
no more contracted DND shuttle services 
no more paying for taxis or parking for business related visits between buildings 
 no more lost productivity hours as pers travel between buildings (I wonder if anyone has ever determined the number of PYs lost annually to time spent waiting for or traveling on NDHQ shuttles) 
 Increased productivity from interacting staffs that would be regularly able to directly interact


----------



## Haggis

There would still be a need for a limited shuttle service between the new building  (for now, let's call it MILNET Tower), 101 Col By, the relocated HCC and Clothing Stores.

DND would also no longer have to pay multiple gym memberships at almost every YMCA in town for those folks who's building is neither close to or has PT facilities.


----------



## COBRA-6

We should have bought the JDS campus when we had the chance... maybe the Nortel campus near Connaught will become available in the future...


----------



## McG

Haggis said:
			
		

> There would still be a need for a limited shuttle service between the new building  (for now, let's call it MILNET Tower), 101 Col By, the relocated HCC and Clothing Stores.


Not in my world    There currently is not shuttle to the HCC, so that would not have to change.  Clothing Stores would move from HPB to the consolidated NDHQ super building, and so would the occupants of 101.


----------



## dapaterson

My nderstanding from press reports is that this will be a secure facility for the secret squirrels of CSE.  However, whether other DND offices will be consolidated into their old stomping grounds remains to be seen.

Remember, though, that like most departments in the NCR, DND is expected to have about a 75-25 split between Ottawa and Hull Gatineau; efficiency will never happen for that reason alone.


----------



## PMedMoe

Don't forget that the former NDMC is rumoured to come down in 2013.  They may be looking at amalgamating people who are in offices in a dozen (or more) buildings all into one.  

40 buildings in the NCR?  I think there's more than that.


----------



## Gunner98

NDMC was "condemned" in 1999, so 2013 is the new date?


----------



## PMedMoe

Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> NDMC was "condemned" in 1999, so 2013 is the new date?



Well, CF H Svcs C (O) is just moving out now (I moved today  ;D).  I mean, they have to have somewhere to put everyone before they can actually tear it down, no?


----------



## McG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Remember, though, that like most departments in the NCR, DND is expected to have about a 75-25 split between Ottawa and Hull Gatineau; efficiency will never happen for that reason alone.


Then, lets throw the .COMs into Gatineau (since they want to be seperate anyway) and leave QETE in the NPB (since it is more of a unit than part of the HQ).  Everything else could move into the new consolidated NDHQ (which would have enough floor space for the .COMs to eventually move in).


----------



## dapaterson

MCG said:
			
		

> Then, lets throw the .COMs into Gatineau



I'd rather throw them into the Rideau river.


----------



## Haggis

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I'd rather throw them into the Rideau river.



There are environmental laws against that.


----------



## 57Chevy

OTTAWA — The federal government is set to announce the purchase of the Nortel Networks campus just outside of Ottawa for the Department of National Defence.

Department officials have wanted for years to consolidate its dozens of offices in the city into several key locations.

The successful purchase of the $150-million Nortel campus will accomplish that goal, government sources say.

DND has been concerned about security, rising rents and aging buildings. The consolidation will also cut costs.

John MacLennan, national president of the Union of National Defence Employees, said his organization is concerned about transportation problems for workers commuting to suburban Ottawa.

"You're adding on extra time to get to work, from one end of the city to the other and transit services aren't the best. It's going to be a challenge for a lot of people."

The deal could be announced as early as Monday.
article link

                     -reproduced under the fair dealings of the copyright act-


----------



## vonGarvin

57Chevy said:
			
		

> "You're adding on extra time to get to work, from one end of the city to the other and transit services aren't the best. It's going to be a challenge for a lot of people."


Boo-frickity-hoo!  What an asinine comment.  For some, yes, it will be further.  What of those who pass the NORTEL building on their way to the current location?  Is it any wonder why I hate unions?   :rage:


----------



## Edward Campbell

If, and it's a Big *IF*, DND can convince cabinet to allow everyone to move to one campus - including the Gatineau, QC contingent - then it is a major relocation of one of the National Capital Region's biggest workforces. The transportation system IS an issue and it will, almost certainly, force the City of Ottawa to rethink its light rail system which will, again almost certainly, be the only really effective way to get that many people to and from one site, in the medium and longer terms.


----------



## Occam

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Boo-frickity-hoo!  What an asinine comment.  For some *most*, yes, it will be further.  What of those who pass the NORTEL building on their way to the current location?  Is it any wonder why I hate unions?   :rage:



Fixed that for you.

The small number of people who are travelling from points west of Kanata already faced long commutes, so the reduction in their commutes would be insignificant.

Well, it's a small number now, before the significant shift of population away from Orleans in the coming years...



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> If, and it's a Big *IF*, DND can convince cabinet to allow everyone to move to one campus - including the Gatineau, QC contingent - then it is a major relocation of one of the National Capital Region's biggest workforces. The transportation system IS an issue and it will, almost certainly, force the City of Ottawa to rethink its light rail system which will, again almost certainly, be the only really effective way to get that many people to and from one site, in the medium and longer terms.



Rethink in a BIG way.  The light rail system that's been on the drawing boards only extends from Blair Station to Tunney's Pasture.  As an Orleans resident who works at Tunney's, I currently take one express bus to/from work.  If I ended up at the Nortel campus, it would go to one express bus, one light rail trip, and another bus....in each direction.  

I'm not amused, considering I already spend 80 minutes in transit per day.


----------



## vonGarvin

I have to clarify my previous post.  It's just that compared to the sacrifices that our soldiers, sailors and air force personnel make on a continual basis (being away from home, last minute travel orders, braving the elements on yet another seemingly pointless exercise, getting shot at, etc), a longer commute pales in comparison.


----------



## McG

Occam said:
			
		

> ... The light rail system that's been on the drawing boards only extends from Blair Station to Tunney's Pasture.


While that has been the plan, if the city does not actually build something that runs from Place d'Orleans to the Sens games, the city has already out-grown the railsystem that is not even built yet.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> If, and it's a Big *IF*, DND can convince cabinet to allow everyone to move to one campus - including the Gatineau, QC contingent - then it is a major relocation of one of the National Capital Region's biggest workforces.


This is also exactly what DND and the CF need.


----------



## George Wallace

All this in a city who's motto should be "The City that Won't".  Light Rail has been discussed for decades.  Tunnels are an on again/off again discusion every decade or so.  Expansion of the Queensway (Hwy 417) won't happen as all the communities and Wards that it passes through won't accept expansion in "their backyards".  A Ring Road would make sense in any city but Ottawa, where "the Green Space must be protected" and "we don't want a highway going through the center of the suburbs" (which will soon be down to Cornwall).  A city where paying penalties for cancelling contracts a la the EH 101 is the norm.  Where rumours are already flying of DND building a super complex in the north of Gatineau to appease Quebec and Gatineau.  

Remember; DND was supposed to move out to the JDS Uniphase Complex off Prince of Wales Drive and that didn't happen.  The Mounties moved in instead.

Yup!  I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## McG

I knew that I'd said it before:  





			
				MCG said:
			
		

> … and I still believe that NDHQ would be significantly more efficient if it were all in one city in a single building (or at least on a single campus of a few buildings).


----------



## 57Chevy

Centralizing/Consolidating/Cutting Costs is the much greater challenge.

The move also coincides well with the likes of other Military Establishments
like the Pentagon. :nod:

As you say E.R. "If" is a big word  ;D
Creating work and new job opportunities is also a major government responsibility.
Therefore, injecting funds for light rail transport, roads, and other systems is good for
the economy in the short....and long term.


----------



## Occam

Technoviking, a good number of those Orleans residents who would be affected by a major relocation of workplace would be military personnel - like me.

The minute these plans become official, I'll be able to watch property value in Orleans plummet.  I wonder how much success I'll have claiming a depressed market *in Ottawa* for the purposes of 100% Home Equity Assistance?   :rage:



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> While that has been the plan, if the city does not actually build something that runs from Place d'Orleans to the Sens games, the city has already out-grown the railsystem that is not even built yet.



I'm with you, but I'd go one better and take it all the way to Rockland.  In for a penny, in for a pound.


----------



## vonGarvin

Silly me.  I thought that the role of the CF had something to do with the defence of Canada, not with maintenance of property values.  :


Tell it to the guys who moved from Winnipeg to Shilo, or from Calgary and Victoria to Edmonton, or the guys who moved from London to Petawawa.....


----------



## Occam

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Silly me.  I thought that the role of the CF had something to do with the defence of Canada, not with maintenance of property values.  :



Does the role of the CF also include financially screwing its members?  Assure me that I'll get at least what I paid for my house when I have to move from Orleans in a couple of years, and I'll reconsider my position.



> Tell it to the guys who moved from Winnipeg to Shilo, or from Calgary and Victoria to Edmonton, or the guys who moved from London to Petawawa.....



You'd have a hard time convincing me that those in Winnipeg, Calgary, Victoria(!) and London had a hard time selling their houses at or better than what they paid for them.


----------



## George Wallace

Ottawa/Gatineau is a totally disfunctional pair of cities.   There are too many levels of Government involved in even the most trivial of decisions.  Ottawa, The City that Won't, is hamstrung by the City Council, the Federal Government, the Provincial Government, the City of Gatineau Council, the Quebec Government, and the biggest hurdle to get past, the National Capital Commission.   Then of course there is the "Old Money" families who control other faucets of development in the city, not to mention the Unions, ie. OC Transpo's union.  

Grandiose plans are not unusual.  What is unusual is if all of these parties can get together in agreement, or at least the parties that are involved can agree.  

All of this does have an affect on whether or not DND will move/consolidate in the Nortel Campus.  There are legitimate transportation concerns.   There are the poor imaginations of current city and Regional planners in their plans for future development.  There are the numerous Left Wing and Environmental Lobbyists who are holding up development of Road and Rail transportation systems.   

The Nortel Campus may look good, as did the JDS Uniphase Campus off Prince of Wales Drive, but I imagine the same excuses will arise as to such a move.  

Will the city run Light Rail out to Shirley's Bay on the existing line, or will that be one hundred years in the making, long after the line has been turned into the Trans Canada Walking Trail?


----------



## muskrat89

Wow. Almost every company I have worked for has moved at one point or another. No one cared how it affected my commute, nor did I expect them to. If it was best for the financial and operational well-being of the company, it was ultimately a benefit to the employees. I say that with the full understanding of the logistics involved with commuting to work - my one way trip is an hour to hour and a half, depending on weather, accidents, etc.


----------



## Armymedic

Occam said:
			
		

> Does the role of the CF also include financially screwing its members?



Technically no, but if you talk to literally hundreds of people who have had be posted in the last decade you would find that the institution really doesn't give a rats behind about the welfare of any specific individual member, regardless whether it is financial, family or health related. When it comes down to it all, *WE* individuals are replaceable, and the institution must do what is best for the institution.

Sorry to sound crass, but that is the reality.

And as muskrat points out, what is best for an institution (company, country, etc.) is that if it benefits the institution it will, ultimately benefit the employees.


----------



## Occam

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> the institution really doesn't give a rats behind about the welfare of any specific individual member, regardless whether it is financial, family or health related.



And when the change in question affects hundreds, perhaps thousands of military and civilian employees?...


----------



## George Wallace

I imagine the same criteria that stopped a developer from building such a complex in Orleans, it being near the flight path to Ottawa International, is not being applied here, if it does become a serious choice.  I always look down onto the Nortel Campus when flying out of Ottawa.


----------



## 54/102 CEF

Won`t happen until some party wins a majority


----------



## Armymedic

I hear you, and empathize with you.

When you get posted away from Ottawa region, and have to sell your home at a reduced price, [sarcasm] Brookfield will do its absolute best to ensure you receive the financial remuneration you deserve from the institution. [/sarcasm].

Like I said....your personal inconvenience is not their concern.

BTW, one of my troops just was posted to Pet from Victoria. His house in Pet costs about the same as the losses he had to take on the house he sold in Victoria. Not a small sum of $$$ to chew on.


----------



## Journeyman

Occam said:
			
		

> And when the change in question affects hundreds, perhaps thousands of military and civilian employees?...



Oh, you mean like....





> .... the guys who moved from Winnipeg to Shilo, or from Calgary and Victoria to Edmonton, or the guys who moved from London to Petawawa.....


NDHQ. Think Toronto's self-centred fixation.....only with uniforms


----------



## Edward Campbell

The first HUGE hurdle is to get the Government go change a *policy* that says 25% of each and every major government department or agency is in Québec. Unless DND is allowed to be exempted then a relocation will not, because it cannot, reap all the benefits it should.

A proper, full, relocation to Moodie Drive – with space to spare for e.g. large Project Management Offices and for nearby offices for e.g. contractors – can save time,  money and people and can make day-by-day staff work more efficient and effective.

But, if the relocation is incomplete then it may waste more than it saves.


----------



## Blackadder1916

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> Wow. Almost every company I have worked for has moved at one point or another. No one cared how it affected my commute, nor did I expect them to. If it was best for the financial and operational well-being of the company, it was ultimately a benefit to the employees. I say that with the full understanding of the logistics involved with commuting to work - my one way trip is an hour to hour and a half, depending on weather, accidents, etc.



Since I don't know the companies you worked for or your place in their hierarchies, it would be impossible for me to comment on what you knew about the factors they considered when planning those moves.  I've been involved three times in the proposal/planning process for such moves (twice for civilian companies and once for a reserve unit - such a scenario was even used for one of the exercises we had to do when I attended Staff School).  In all cases the disruption to employees was considered (whether they knew about it or not).  Yes, ultimately it came down to a decision of what was best for the organization; but staff disruption has an operational effect and financial cost all its own.  By the way, the proposed move for that reserve unit was cancelled because of the resulting disruption (primarily inadequate public transport and increased travelling time) for the part-time members of the unit.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Remember; DND was supposed to move out to the JDS Uniphase Complex off Prince of Wales Drive and that didn't happen.  The Mounties moved in instead.
> 
> Yup!  I'll believe it when I see it.



Or when DND was going to buy the hotel on Elgin for troopies on TD, Restricted Postings, etc. As soon as the rest of the hotels heard about it, they complained and the deal got shot down.


----------



## muskrat89

> Since I don't know the companies you worked for or your place in their hierarchies, it would be impossible for me to comment on what you knew about the factors they considered when planning those moves.  I've been involved three times in the proposal/planning process for such moves (twice for civilian companies and once for a reserve unit - such a scenario was even used for one of the exercises we had to do when I attended Staff School).  In all cases the disruption to employees was considered (whether they knew about it or not).



Management of operations and operational planning is how I make my living, and have for most of  my adult life. There are consequences (known, assumed, and unknown) for every operational and/or planning decision made. Have I ever consolidated a site the size of NDHQ? Of course not. That being said, if the financial and operational best interests are met by the organization, moving to a new location, so be it. Planners need to be considerate of employees and other stakeholders, but shouldn't necessarily focus their broad-based decisions on how it might affect the employees bus-routes or home values. Obviously (if I understand your example of a reserve unit) if the move makes it impractical or impossible for the majority of members to attend, and there is no comparable labor pool in the new location, then that *should* be a determining factor. A decision which effectively makes it impossible for employees to get to work is different than a decision which increases the challenges associated with commutes. Employees will decide as individuals whether it is "worth it" or not. 

To demonstrate my "in my lane-ness", my current position is at a Medical School which is a part of one of Arizona's three major Universities. In addition to being responsible for most of the Campus' operations, I am also responsible for emergency and disaster planning, as well as COOP (Continuity Of Operations Planning). Our pandemic planning  for example, has to account for absenteeism and the possibility of disrupted public transportation;  yes I am aware of factors which influence operations.


----------



## Kat Stevens

*COFF*CFBCHILLIWACK*COFF*CFBCALGARY*COFF*  Poor NDHQ muffins.  The deal we were all offered was "move to Edmonton or get out, we don't care".  Suck it up, buttercup.


----------



## Occam

Journeyman said:
			
		

> NDHQ. Think Toronto's self-centred fixation.....only with uniforms



Not all of us chose to be here, and many of us aren't of sufficient rank to have a self-centred fixation about anything.

I'm not against a move to the Nortel campus.  Hell, it would mean my job is one helluva lot easier since I wouldn't have to travel to 35 different sites to find out someone has moved a computer on their desk and tried to stretch a 10 foot fibre cable to go 11 feet.  People posted to Ottawa who would be working at the Nortel campus would naturally buy homes which are a convenient commute.  The problem is the people who are already here, who bought homes in places like Orleans under the impression that they'd be working downtown, and all of a sudden are faced with a commute across the city.  The slap in the face is the reduced demand for homes in the areas where we now live, and consequent devaluation.

Home equity assistance is available to those who are being moved out of depressed markets.  Under a worst case scenario, one would hope that if Orleans residents get hammered on a spiralling real estate market, that the government will step in with HEA - considering DND caused the spiralling market in the first place by consolidating in Kanata.



			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> *COFF*CFBCHILLIWACK*COFF*CFBCALGARY*COFF*  Poor NDHQ muffins.  The deal we were all offered was "move to Edmonton or get out, we don't care".  Suck it up, buttercup.



DND completely shut down operations in those locations.  Apples and oranges.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Occam said:
			
		

> Not all of us chose to be here, and many of us aren't of sufficient rank to have a self-centred fixation about anything.
> 
> I'm not against a move to the Nortel campus.  Hell, it would mean my job is one helluva lot easier since I wouldn't have to travel to 35 different sites to find out someone has moved a computer on their desk and tried to stretch a 10 foot fibre cable to go 11 feet.  People posted to Ottawa who would be working at the Nortel campus would naturally buy homes which are a convenient commute.  The problem is the people who are already here, who bought homes in places like Orleans under the impression that they'd be working downtown, and all of a sudden are faced with a commute across the city.  The slap in the face is the reduced demand for homes in the areas where we now live, and consequent devaluation.
> 
> Home equity assistance is available to those who are being moved out of depressed markets.  Under a worst case scenario, one would hope that if Orleans residents get hammered on a spiralling real estate market, that the government will step in with HEA - considering DND caused the spiralling market in the first place by consolidating in Kanata.
> 
> DND completely shut down operations in those locations.  Apples and oranges.



Not true.


----------



## Occam

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Not true.



Could you elaborate on that a little?   ;D

If there's still a military presence at either of those locations, I don't know what it is.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Never heard of the ASU at Chilliwack?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

If this looks like its going to happen then I'm snatching up some houses in Kemptville really quick.

Hey, Old Sweat,.....


----------



## Occam

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Never heard of the ASU at Chilliwack?



Actually, I hadn't.  I stand corrected.  My impression was that when CFOCS left town, there was nothing left.  Assuming Wikipedia is correct about CFSME and 3 PPCLI also leaving in 1997, how many pers are still left at the ASU?



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If this looks like its going to happen then I'm snatching up some houses in Kemptville really quick.
> 
> Hey, Old Sweat,.....



The line forms behind me.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Occam said:
			
		

> Actually, I hadn't.  I stand corrected.  My impression was that when CFOCS left town, there was nothing left.  Assuming Wikipedia is correct about CFSME and 3 PPCLI also leaving in 1997, how many pers are still left at the ASU?
> 
> The line forms behind me.



There are about 200 reg, and a metric butt load of res people jogging in and out of Chilliwack.  There were a few Engineers in Chilliwack before the exodus, too... 1 Combat something something... wikipedia could screw up a wet dream.


----------



## 57Chevy

Maybe so......lets check it out.
There must be something going on over there :nod:
From wikipedia:

ASU Chilliwack has responsibility over several military training areas. These areas are often used by Regular Force units from 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group, Reserve Force units from Mainland British Columbia, some units training for deployment to Afghanistan, and as well as Cadets.

ASU Chilliwack maintains ranges and training areas for use by it dependencies, as well as visiting units.

Vokes Range
Slesse Creek Demolition Training Areas
Columbia Valley Training Area
Trail Rifle Range
Stone Creek Training Area
Vernon Military Camp
OPSEE Training Area
Chilcotin Training Area
Vedder Mountain Training Area
Richmond – Armoury and transmitter site


----------



## McG

All,
Let's stop the Chilliwack tangent.  The regular force presence did effectively up and leave.  The base closed, but some of the propertie was retained for a new military purpose.  The little ASU that remains is there to support primary reserves in the area and send recovery should somebody breakdown while passing through.

In the end, these microscopic details have no relevance on the current possibilities for NDHQ consolidation.


----------



## Kat Stevens

The point was, people are inconvenienced by the company all the time.  Don't like it?  Get out.  That's all we got.


----------



## Occam

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The point was, people are inconvenienced by the company all the time.  Don't like it?  Get out.  That's all we got.



There's inconvenienced, and there's financially hammered on your home sale.  One is okay, the other is not.


----------



## George Wallace

Things that come to mind.......No Cost Posting........Unit is moved to a new location, but pers cannot move location of F&E.  Move from Orleans to Kanata/Bells Corners/Stittsville/Carlton Place/Carp would be 40 to 100+ km.  Travel distance on a good day from East end of Orleans or Rockland to Moodie Drive approx 45 min to an hour.  During Rush Hour, and when the OC Transpo Light Rail lines are being built on the Transitway that travel time will be a min of one hour, maxing out at perhaps three.  OC Transpo service to a low service area will be reliable only during "Peak hours" -- don't hold any hope of reasonable service during off peak hours.


----------



## Occam

I'll be a long while before any light rail project is completed.

Just for sh*ts 'n giggles, I put my address into the OC Transpo travel planner, and put Lab 5, Nortel Carling as the destination.  I then set 0700 as the "must arrive by" time.

Leave house @ 0456
Route 130 @ 0501
Route 95 @ 0526
Route 96 @ 0541
Route 182 @ 0555
Arrive Lab 5 @ 0627

Yeah, that ain't happenin'.


----------



## Old Sweat

While the whole proposal is based on a story in the local paper and may never come to pass for all sorts of reasons, I ran the route from Kemptville to Shirley's Bay, which I think is past the Nortel Building, in my handy Microsoft route planner. The elapsed time by road using Highway 416 is 41 minutes.

Maybe the folks putting up the new mall here with Staples, relocated existing IGA, Scotiabank, Shoppers and Canadian Tire and our second Timmies as well as Walmart, TD and BMO were onto something.


----------



## Occam

There's nothing in the original article which would offer anything in the line of proof, but it does say that the purchase could be announced as early as Monday (tomorrow).  It certainly sounds like a fait accompli.


----------



## 54/102 CEF

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> While the whole proposal is based on a story in the local paper and may never come to pass for all sorts of reasons, I ran the route from Kemptville to Shirley's Bay, which I think is past the Nortel Building, in my handy Microsoft route planner. The elapsed time by road using Highway 416 is 41 minutes.
> 
> Maybe the folks putting up the new mall here with Staples, relocated existing IGA, Scotiabank, Shoppers and Canadian Tire and our second Timmies as well as Walmart, TD and BMO were onto something.



The mall builders are on to something - Urban Sprawl - be surprised if they`d let DND drive their planning. 

Any move is do-able - City should mandate cars off the roads inside a say 10 km radius - or dedicate a lane east and west. As it is - urban commuting is 95% cars vs 5% Public transport - just look at the fools who park at Louis Stand Around.

In addition - why not max out the existing infrastructure - get 2 shifts into all govt locations vs 7-3 ---- that means 6.5 hours at the desk from 06 - 1800. Can be done and if tfc on the roads in the region is any indication - many in civvy world are living that reality. DND should 2. That won`t happen and neither will Nortel.


----------



## George Wallace

Occam said:
			
		

> There's nothing in the original article which would offer anything in the line of proof, but it does say that the purchase could be announced as early as Monday (tomorrow).  It certainly sounds like a fait accompli.



And as I said earlier in this topic, I have heard rumours of a super complex being built north of Gatineau, so all we really have is "The Rumour of the Day".  The building I work in is supposed to be demolished in 2013.  We heard those rumours for the past several years.  Each year a new one.  No one has found a place to move us, so again I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## George Wallace

Occam said:
			
		

> I'll be a long while before any light rail project is completed.
> 
> Just for sh*ts 'n giggles, I put my address into the OC Transpo travel planner, and put Lab 5, Nortel Carling as the destination.  I then set 0700 as the "must arrive by" time.
> 
> Leave house @ 0456
> Route 130 @ 0501
> Route 95 @ 0526
> Route 96 @ 0541
> Route 182 @ 0555
> Arrive Lab 5 @ 0627
> 
> Yeah, that ain't happenin'.



Time to buy an Express Pass.    ;D


----------



## Occam

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Time to buy an Express Pass.    ;D



I have an Express Pass.  It's what gets me from my house to Tunney's using one bus, in 42 minutes.  Unfortunately, none of the above are Express routes.


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae

Not everybody will be moving to Nortel, should it happen.  The _Ottawa Citizen_ notes that the department will continue to operate National Defence headquarters in downtown Ottawa.  Construction on LSTL II has been ongoing for the last 2 months - 2200 new folks are coming to LSTL II with a move in date of 2012.  Hopefully this will reduce NDHQ from almost 40 locations across the National Capital Region to less than a handful.


----------



## McG

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The point was, people are inconvenienced by the company all the time.  Don't like it?  Get out.  That's all we got.





			
				Occam said:
			
		

> There's inconvenienced, and there's financially hammered on your home sale.  One is okay, the other is not.


Many on this site have often (and rightfully) pointed out that "the company" should also think of the people.  In the various base closure examples, the military pers were all given paid moves to thier new places of work and the civilians would have been offered paid moves or they would have been entitled to union won "work force adjustment" benefits.  In the case of relocating NDHQ, the workforce also needs to be part of the consideration.  Maybe not a go/no-go factor, but certainly a plan to mitigate hardships should be on the books.  Conceivably, everyone east of "the split" at hwys 417 & 174 could be given a 4 year window to opt into a paid relocation to the west side of downtown.  

Let's  not forget that this is a federal government department, and we cannot do anything without a collection of ministers assessing the potential impacts on local economies.  If this move would "hammer" one side of the city, then the government would insist on some sort of plan to make-nice (such as encouraging the sub-way with federal dollars).



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The first HUGE hurdle is to get the Government go change a *policy* that says 25% of each and every major government department or agency is in Québec. Unless DND is allowed to be exempted then a relocation will not, because it cannot, reap all the benefits it should.


I once proposed (some what sarcastically) that the solution to a consolidated NDHQ was to build an island in the centre of the Ottawa river with foot bridges connecting the parking lots on either side of the river.  The 25% policy could be satisfied, all political interests could be appeased, and NDHQ could operate under a single roof (or at least on a single campus).



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> A proper, full, relocation to Moodie Drive – with space to spare for e.g. large Project Management Offices and for nearby offices for e.g. contractors – can save time,  money and people and can make day-by-day staff work more efficient and effective.
> 
> But, if the relocation is incomplete then it may waste more than it saves.


This is the critical "if."  Should a Moodie Dr campus simply serve to consolidate all the little scattered offices, then it will likely induce more harm than good.  There is already an inordinate amount of salary wasted in travel and wait times on the NDHQ shuttle service.  Adding another 60 min round trip will not help productivity nor communication within the headquarters.

... as an asside, I would also hope the messes follow wherever a consolidated NDHQ goes.  I know most seem emotionally attached to historic buildings, but a failure to follow NDHQ to a new location would solidify irrelevance to still serving members.


----------



## Pusser

Is there no one who is excited at this possibility?  I know in my case it will actually reduce my commute and make things much easier.  But then again, when I chose the location where I wanted to buy a house, I considered where I wanted to live, not where the easiest commute was.  On that issue; however, one should realize that if thousands of people are now going to be going a new location, OC Transpo will adjust its routes and schedules accordingly.  It wouldn't make economic sense for them not to.


----------



## George Wallace

Pusser said:
			
		

> ..........  On that issue; however, one should realize that if thousands of people are now going to be going a new location, OC Transpo will adjust its routes and schedules accordingly.  It wouldn't make economic sense for them not to.



Do you have that much faith that economic or common sense will come into play?      >


----------



## captloadie

Other than the civilian work force, shouldn't the rest of the CF expect to be rotating in and out of Ottawa? Wouldn't this mean that, as far as commuting, you'd only be inconvnienced for what, 1 year or two, before being posted out?  >

I'd be snatching up any apartment buildings or hotels in the area to take advantage of the new IR's  ;D


----------



## 57Chevy

57Chevy said:
			
		

> OTTAWA — The federal government is set to announce the purchase of the Nortel Networks campus just outside of Ottawa for the Department of National Defence.
> 
> Department officials have wanted for years to consolidate its dozens of offices in the city into several key locations.
> 
> The successful purchase of the $150-million Nortel campus will accomplish that goal, government sources say.
> 
> DND has been concerned about security, rising rents and aging buildings. The consolidation will also cut costs.
> 
> John MacLennan, national president of the Union of National Defence Employees, said his organization is concerned about transportation problems for workers commuting to suburban Ottawa.
> 
> "You're adding on extra time to get to work, from one end of the city to the other and transit services aren't the best. It's going to be a challenge for a lot of people."
> 
> The deal could be announced as early as Monday.
> article link



BF seeing it's Monday.  ;D


----------



## PuckChaser

With that many employees moving to a certain area, it would be downright dumb of OC Transpo not to make a dedicated express route to encourage transit use and get everyone there faster.


----------



## Pusser

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Do you have that much faith that economic or common sense will come into play?      >



Admittedly, I'm not entirely confident that OC Transpo will do this right.  There is far too much political meddling with that organization by Ottawa City Council, who often seem more content to provide comic relief in the NCR, than actual leadership.  Nevertheless, I have seen other transit companies make adjustments to their routes and schedules in order to meet new demands created by changes in the military demographic.  So it could happen!  :nod:  

Right now, many DND/CF people take the bus to work because of parking issues.  These may go away at the Nortel site.  If OC Transpo doesn't want to suffer a huge loss of business, they will have to provide acceptable routes and schedules to the new site.  That's the business case solution, but we'll see what happens.


----------



## George Wallace

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> With that many employees moving to a certain area, it would be downright dumb of OC Transpo not to make a dedicated express route to encourage transit use and get everyone there faster.



Logic does not seem to be in the vocabulary of the people at OC Transpo.  In the last year they have made many changes to routes in the East End that have caused a lot of consternation amongst their ridership.  Cutting buses on high volume routes.  Changing the routes of buses, leaving riders high and dry.   The East End is where the majority of the ridership resides.  When OC Transpo makes decisions that alienate them, they find other means to get to work.  The road network is being maxed out by disgruntled OC Transpo riders who no longer take the buses.

OC Transpo, like the majority of Ottawa bureaucracy is mismanaged by inept people who would rather see a raise in taxes and Bus fares, than run a profit making transit system.


----------



## George Wallace

captloadie said:
			
		

> Other than the civilian work force, shouldn't the rest of the CF expect to be rotating in and out of Ottawa? Wouldn't this mean that, as far as commuting, you'd only be inconvnienced for what, 1 year or two, before being posted out?  >
> 
> I'd be snatching up any apartment buildings or hotels in the area to take advantage of the new IR's  ;D



There are some Trades that are wholly centered in Ottawa.  Some of these Trades only have small Dets across the country, or leave for short periods on Tasking or Tours, but are basically centered on their 'unit' in Ottawa.

Remember, Ottawa is not solely an "Officer Posting".  They have staffs who work under them to get things done.   I am sure that an RMS clerk can be posted from one "Dept" to another within Ottawa and have a "No Cost Posting".  I am also sure that many have pulled off "Compassionate Postings" to stay in Ottawa for their whole careers.  
  
I am sure you will find some pers who have spent twenty or more years posted to Ottawa.   



[Edit to add]

There are not too many hotels in that area of town.  You have to go out to Bells Corners or Kanata to find a hotel or motel.   This campus is on the edge of the "Green Belt", with residential land between it and the River, an Equestrian facility to the South and Connaught Ranges and Shirley's Bay Facilities to the West.  No easy walk to any lodging.


----------



## dapaterson

If a trade can spend 20+ years in Ottawa, it`s time to civilianize it and return those military PYs for reinvestment.

I suspect the end-state will see three  facilities:  The new campus, Louis St Laurent to meetthe 25% Quebec factor, plus NDHQ (101 Col By).

That will mean the messes will stay downtown, unfortunately.  Personally, I`d close all five messes, and re-open three all-ranks facilities: the main one at the new campus, and reduced ones at Louis and 101.

Of course, real change could be made by having people show up - if you could gather 40 like-minded people you could take over any mess meeting you want.


----------



## George Wallace

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If a trade can spend 20+ years in Ottawa, it`s time to civilianize it and return those military PYs for reinvestment.



I was thinking of some of the Trades that are out at CFJIC, CFEWC, Leitrim, etc. who are for the most part centered in Ottawa, with few postings elsewhere.  There must be several hundred in this category.  Many of those Trades have been "Civilianized" with members taking retirement and walking in the next day as a higher paid civilian, waiting for their Security Clearance to be reinstated.


----------



## McG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I suspect the end-state will see three  facilities:  The new campus, Louis St Laurent to meetthe 25% Quebec factor, plus NDHQ (101 Col By).


I suppose there are other possibilities.  The .COMs were kicked out to Startop because there was a desire to keep them seperate entities from NDHQ.  Even if they are consolidated down to a single L1, I assume that desire would remaind.  We move the operational command to Gatineau while brining the LStL workforce back to the consolidated campus.  

As for 101, that could be given-up to another department with the majority of occupants also moving to the consolidated campus while a few (CDS, SJS, and any ministerial staff) transition to a small executive office in the downtown (or maybe even old Hull to reinforce the 25% while remaining very close to Parlaiment).


----------



## Edward Campbell

MCG said:
			
		

> I suppose there are other possibilities.  The .COMs were kicked out to Startop because there was a desire to keep them seperate entities from NDHQ.  Even if they are consolidated down to a single L1, I assume that desire would remaind.  We move the operational command to Gatineau while brining the LStL workforce back to the consolidated campus.
> 
> As for 101, that could be given-up to another department with the majority of occupants also moving to the consolidated campus while a few (CDS, SJS, and any ministerial staff) transition to a small executive office in the downtown (or maybe even old Hull to reinforce the 25% while remaining very close to Parlaiment).




I rather like that idea:

1. NDHQ1 - downtown - MND, DM1, ADM(Pol), ADM(Com & PA), ADM(Fin) and ADM(Civ Pers) 
2. NDHQ2 - new campus - MND (Alt), DM (Alt), ADM(Mat) (*complete*) + *CFHQ* - CDS _et al_, Joint Staff (CEFCOM disappears and is subsumed here), Service staffs, etc including a proper MILPERSCEN
3. CANCOM (with CANOSCOM subsumed into it) and CANSOFCOM - Gatineau


----------
*National Defence* HQ is split into main (primary) and rear (secondary - mostly ADM(Mat)) _echelons_ but the *Canadian Forces'* HQ would be consolidated in one campus.


----------



## George Wallace

The site does offer room for a lot of consolidation and still keep the various Departments segregated in separate buildings.  It would have adequate parking for Mil Pat and PMOVs.  It has good access to a couple of major hwys.  

With some foresight on the part of the numerous levels of government bureaucracies it could be a decent location, even though it is at the end of the outward flight path of Ottawa International.  If the City were to partner with several other levels of government and build a Ring Road, it may even enhance this as a choice, giving it even better access to other parts of city.


Note:  The bus routes on this image, are Peak Hour routes, and not normal routes.


----------



## Captsapper@gmail.com

To further the discussion about public transit to this facility, the City of Ottawa has previously approved an extension to the Transitway from Bayshore to Moodie.  I know it will not be as convenient as stepping off the bus as people do currently at NDHQ but this will significantly improve the speed of service in this area.  From what I have read this is supposed to go forward sometime in 2011.

http://ottawa.ca/residents/construction/projects/wte_bayshore_to_moodie/index_en.html

As for access by car, when traveling north on the 416 you now have to get off at Holly Acres and do a couple of left hand turns to get back onto the 417 westbound and off at Moodie.  This has a potential for being a real choke-point.  That said it is leaps and bounds better than before the recent construction, previously when traveling northbound on the 416 and exiting at Moodie one had to merge to the right across three lanes of highway traffic within approximately 350-400m.  I did that drive daily for five years and I am sure it shaved a few years my life expectancy.


----------



## dapaterson

Two ball diamonds and a soccer field.  So that's three fewer excuses for males to require maternity CADPAT due to their girth.


But the key question:  Where's the Timmies????


----------



## Captsapper@gmail.com

Currently there is at least one inside...  Used to be more but as Nortel's numbers declined so did the number of timmies outlets.


----------



## PuckChaser

Captsapper said:
			
		

> Currently there is at least one inside...



That just sold me that this is the perfect building for NDHQ and all the Dot Coms.

I bet the soccer field gets turned into a parking lot though.  >


----------



## HavokFour

Wait, is this the same complex I keep hearing they were going to build out here in Orleans? Or have they scrapped that plan? All that's been built on the site is a wooden fence in the middle of a field. It's not even a whole fence, it's just one side.


----------



## George Wallace

HavokFour said:
			
		

> Wait, is this the same complex I keep hearing they were going to build out here in Orleans? Or have they scrapped that plan? All that's been built on the site is a wooden fence in the middle of a field. It's not even a whole fence, it's just one side.



Nortel Campus is not in Orleans.  It is on Modie Drive, north of Bell's Corners and the 417.

The proposal for a site in Orleans, with a Developer willing to bid was shot down a long time ago as it is on the Approach Path to the Airport.  Remember 911?

What you may see in Orleans on Mer Bleue Rd is the new site for an extension to the hospital that DND saved, the Montfort.  It is to be a Family Health Care Annex.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Given the relative locations of e.g. the Pentagon and Ronald Reagan/Washington National Airport I'm not so sure that being on a flight path is a critical issue.

All buildings, including e.g. Cheyenne Mountain, are vulnerable to a whole host of threats; it's part of the problem of being in the world.


----------



## HavokFour

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Nortel Campus is not in Orleans.  It is on Modie Drive, north of Bell's Corners and the 417.
> 
> The proposal for a site in Orleans, with a Developer willing to bid was shot down a long time ago as it is on the Approach Path to the Airport.  Remember 911?
> 
> What you may see in Orleans on Mer Bleue Rd is the new site for an extension to the hospital that DND saved, the Montfort.  It is to be a Family Health Care Annex.



Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## Captsapper@gmail.com

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I bet the soccer field gets turned into a parking lot though.  >



I wonder how much they are going to charge for parking?


----------



## captloadie

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are some Trades that are wholly centered in Ottawa.  Some of these Trades only have small Dets across the country, or leave for short periods on Tasking or Tours, but are basically centered on their 'unit' in Ottawa.
> 
> Remember, Ottawa is not solely an "Officer Posting".  They have staffs who work under them to get things done.   I am sure that an RMS clerk can be posted from one "Dept" to another within Ottawa and have a "No Cost Posting".  I am also sure that many have pulled off "Compassionate Postings" to stay in Ottawa for their whole careers.
> 
> I am sure you will find some pers who have spent twenty or more years posted to Ottawa.
> 
> 
> 
> [



So these members are probably not worried about Equity losses in their homes, as they really have no intentions of moving. If they bought in Orleans and only intended in selling to trade up, that's a personal decision, not forced on them by the military.

For the rest though, it will be a tough pill to swallow, but not worse then those being posted out of Edmonton or Victoria at the moment.


----------



## McG

Captsapper said:
			
		

> I wonder how much they are going to charge for parking?


If there are no comercial parking alternatives (as exist in the current downtown location) then it would be possible to charge 0$ and comply with PWGSC policy.

... unless someone decides parking is in competition with bus ridership, in which case the cost might become equal of a monthly OC Transpo express bus pass.


----------



## Occam

Parking at Shirley's Bay is in the "No market" category (meaning no cost), so it would not be a stretch at all to do the same at Nortel Carling, which is only 3 km away.


----------



## Edward Campbell

CBC Radio is now (1000 Hrs, 19 Oct 29) reporting that the Government of Canada has, subject to court approval (bankrupty proceedings), agreed to pay *$208 Million* for the old NORTEL campus.


----------



## yoman

> OTTAWA — Nortel Networks has sold its huge campus at Carling Avenue and Moodie Drive to the federal government for $208 million.
> 
> The deal with Public Works Canada, which is to close at the end of the year, is one of the biggest real estate plays in Ottawa in recent years. Although not mentioned in Tuesday's news release, the deal is thought to pave the way for the Department of National Defence to move out of at least some of its many locations throughout Ottawa, and into the Nortel campus.
> 
> The campus is lon 370 acres of land in Ottawa's National Capital Commission greenbelt, and consists of 11 interconnected buildings totaling more than two million square feet.
> 
> The sale agreement provides for Nortel to continue to occupy parts of the Campus for varying periods of time to facilitate Nortel's continuing work on its global restructuring, including work under the transition services agreements with the various buyers of Nortel's sold businesses.
> 
> All other existing leases will be assumed by Public Works, including leases with buyers of Nortel's businesses. With respect to the lease with Ciena, the purchaser of the Optical Networking and Carrier Ethernet (MEN) business, Nortel is directed by Public Works to exercise, on closing, Nortel's early termination rights under the lease, shortening the lease from 10 years to five years.
> 
> This will result in the repayment to Ciena of $33.5 million U.S.
> © Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Public+Works+pays+208M+Nortel+campus/3693483/story.html#ixzz12oVulh27


----------



## Matt_Fisher

So will the move to Kanata result in an increase in real-estate sales in the Arnprior market which is commutable to the new NDHQ complex, and 'somewhat' commutable to Petawawa whereby a member can do an IR posting from NDHQ up to Pet and still be home for supper most evenings of the week?


----------



## acooper

Egads, I sure hope they don't get rid of Uplands SHHO/PMQs as part of this. To me (living in Windsor), the real estate prices near this new complex are expensive! I would not be surprised in the least to see the MCE move out there - the bldg they are in currently has several problems (as in don't use the water fountains problems!). But trying to afford a place out towards this new possible complex after selling the house in Windsor below appraised cost (and barely above what's owed on the mortgage) will be awful...


----------



## Captsapper@gmail.com

acooper said:
			
		

> the real estate prices near this new complex are expensive!



I understand your dilemma, but in comparison with other area's of Ottawa you are getting what you pay for.  Here is an article from the CBC last year describing the effect that the demise of Nortel was having on the immediate area.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/09/14/ottawa-nortel-crystal-beach.html 

The article spells out doom and gloom but it is not really the case, the neighborhood is nice and vibrant, people are friendly and all the business mentioned are still there.  With respect to the housing costs the neighborhood is somewhat expensive but it is my argument that you are getting much larger lots than you would in the "new" suburbs.  I know, I recently moved to that area in order to get a bigger backyard for the kids and to shorten my commute to work.  The houses are primarily bungalows and split levels built in the mid 60's on decent size lots compared to new developments.  As for the price, it is a balance, you can get a bigger house on a postage stamp in the newer developments for the same price as a smaller house with a bigger lot in these neighborhoods.


----------



## acooper

Oh, I get that they are roughly in line with Ottawa - I'm comparing to WINDSOR's expenses. I find Ottawa real estate VERY expensive, in general, and thank my lucky stars that my husband got a place through SHHO. Our finances can't handle anything much more expensive until he's done with his QL5A course, gets back to MCpl rank, and gets spec pay...


----------



## dapaterson

acooper said:
			
		

> Oh, I get that they are roughly in line with Ottawa - I'm comparing to WINDSOR's expenses. I find Ottawa real estate VERY expensive, in general, and thank my lucky stars that my husband got a place through SHHO. Our finances can't handle anything much more expensive until he's done with his QL5A course, gets back to MCpl rank, and gets spec pay...



Side note:  Spec pay comes in for Cpls who are QL5 qualified.


----------



## acooper

Yep, I understand that. I just know our budget numbers, and while spec pay at Cpl will help, we really need him back to MCpl to be in good shape.


My husband has heard it's going to be something like 5 years to get everything and everyone moved. Does that seem realistic, optimistic, or pessimistic?


----------



## dapaterson

Very realistic.  Thousands of people to move to a facility that will have to be refitted, all currently in other buildings with leases that expire at different times, into buildings with some current tenants, and the deal closes in 2011.

I don't expect to see the "new" building fully occupied before 2016 or so.  However, people will probably begin the migration in 2012.


----------



## Captsapper@gmail.com

It is not going to be tomorrow or anything like that.  According to the Ottawa Citizen article the deal is not supposed to close to the end of the year subject to regulatory approval.  Then Nortel has to exercise the early termination clause of Ciena's lease shortening it to 5 years, considering that deal only happened in the last year Ciena will contractually have space there up until approximately 2015 unless the government does something additional to the lease.  There are other companies located there as well probably with shorter lease arrangements as they are not mentioned.  My assumption would be that as these leases expire the occupants move out and the space is prepared for the new occupants and any move is done in stages.  2016 sounds about right.  There is a lot of empty space over there currently so retrofit could start quickly after closing.


----------



## Matt_Fisher

Lets not forget too that DND will have to either exercise early lease terminations (with financial penalties) on the non-government owned commercial property they are located in around the NCR or stay onsite until the leases expire. Additionally a significant amount of renovation work will likely have to be done to the Nortel property as well as likely upgrades to the property's physical security, i.e. perimeter fencing, access control points, etc. which will all take some time to sort through the contract tendering and course of work, etc.

The 2016 date for moving the majority of NDHQ and its' minions into the new facility is likely very much realistic.

How about the idea of turning the Connaught Ranges & Primary Training Centre into a giant PMQ townhouse subdivision, along with several high rise apartment buildings for single/IR type quarters?     Less than a 10 minute commute to work for those at the new NDHQ complex.
Even better yet, build a paved walking trail from Connaught to the new NDHQ with a pedestrian overpass on Carling Ave to promote physical fitness of the NDHQers by walking, running or bicycling to and from work.


----------



## George Wallace

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> How about the idea of turning the Connaught Ranges & Primary Training Centre into a giant PMQ townhouse subdivision, along with several high rise apartment buildings for single/IR type quarters?     Less than a 10 minute commute to work for those at the new NDHQ complex.
> Even better yet, build a paved walking trail from Connaught to the new NDHQ with a pedestrian overpass on Carling Ave to promote physical fitness of the NDHQers by walking, running or bicycling to and from work.



Don't forget to install a set of traffic lights to control the intersection of Carling Ave and Rifle Rd.     ;D


----------



## dapaterson

Yes, pave over Connaught, because why would a military HQ really need to train on weapons?

Er...


----------



## RCAF_FB_Raider

Is there room for a runway? I can imagine a helo pad will be constructed. Hummm, it's close to the water, toss in a port too.


----------



## Matt_Fisher

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Yes, pave over Connaught, because why would a military HQ really need to train on weapons?
> 
> Er...



And how often do folks at NDHQ actually do PWTs?  Probably just as easy to send people up to Petawawa for a PWT cycle than it is to use Connaught.  Even if you didn't close all the ranges at Connaught, there's a relatively sizable chunk of land there that could be developed for housing.


----------



## McG

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> And how often do folks at NDHQ actually do PWTs?


They run all the time, and despite that there is a higher demand for pers wanting to shoot that the training cell is able to run relays.  All the other elements of IBTS are conducted in that location as well.



			
				Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Probably just as easy to send people up to Petawawa for a PWT cycle than it is to use Connaught.


At a higher cost in tranportation, meals and lost working hours (pers gone from the office for a full day as opposed to a half day).  



			
				Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Even if you didn't close all the ranges at Connaught, there's a relatively sizable chunk of land there that could be developed for housing.


Most of it in the danger template, covered in NRC anteanas, or situated along the railway (not great for living).

There is no need to build new PMQs in Ottawa.  Locations already exist, and there is a fairly deep housing & rental market for people who don't like those locations.  Keeping Connaught open in its current role will save time and resources for the CF.


----------



## Nemo888

I found some very cheap condos in Bell's Corners if you need one. You can't get much closer to the Nortel Campus than that.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> And how often do folks at NDHQ actually do PWTs?  Probably just as easy to send people up to Petawawa for a PWT cycle than it is to use Connaught.  Even if you didn't close all the ranges at Connaught, there's a relatively sizable chunk of land there that could be developed for housing.


Beware losing local range facilities.  Don't know how much Connaught is used by units in/around Ottawa (compared to their going to Pet), but take it from someone living where there USED TO BE a 600m range, and now reservists drive 8 hours to shoot - even if it's not that far, it's _never_ as easy driving out of town to shoot.


----------



## dapaterson

Of course, if we really want to encourage fitness, build PMQs in Stittsville and provide a walking path.  >


----------



## Remius

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> And how often do folks at NDHQ actually do PWTs?  Probably just as easy to send people up to Petawawa for a PWT cycle than it is to use Connaught.  Even if you didn't close all the ranges at Connaught, there's a relatively sizable chunk of land there that could be developed for housing.



there isn`t that much room for PMQs.  They can barely find room for new shacks.


----------



## Pusser

It appears to me that there is bags of room at Uplands for PMQs - of course from what I can see, the ones they have are not fully utilized to start with.

Don't close Connaught.  It's actually a pretty good facility and they run it with a modicum of common sense so that I can actually stay current on all weapons, first aid, CBRN, etc training without completely disrupting my job.  Going to Petawawa for this simply wouldn't happen.


----------



## acooper

I'd agree that there's lots of room at Uplands for more stuff, but I'm not sure how proximity to the airport might limit those things. I know there are vacancies in the SHHO townhomes (our neighbor just moved out to deploy to Afghanistan), I'm not sure on the PMQ side of things, however...


----------



## AmmoTech90

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> And how often do folks at NDHQ actually do PWTs?  Probably just as easy to send people up to Petawawa for a PWT cycle than it is to use Connaught.  Even if you didn't close all the ranges at Connaught, there's a relatively sizable chunk of land there that could be developed for housing.



PWT (Rifle/Pistol)/CBRN/First Aid are run almost weekly in Connaught.  It is run for individuals who deploy and also for units (for example my unit had a week long block booked and we got the majority of pers through).  This is in addition to competition shooting (there is a NDHQ shooting club)


----------



## gun runner

I think the question was more geared to 'How many(at NDHQ) would really bother at all with PWT, or even know the business end of a weapon?'.My two cents.Cheers.


----------



## Pusser

Actually, quite a few.  Ironically, I've re-qualified on weapons here in "static" Ottawa more times in the last three years than in many more years on "operational" bases.


----------



## gun runner

Well, for that I am truly humbled.I stand corrected Sir.Ubique


----------



## Occam

My house in Orleans is still available for purchase...anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?



Public Works *DND* completes $208M purchase of Nortel's Ottawa campus

Original link

OTTAWA - Public Works and Government Services Canada has purchased Nortel's Carling campus for $208 million and confirmed plans to relocate a significant portion of Department of National Defence operations there.

DND has been planning for years to consolidate its offices, which are spread throughout the city, into a few key locations. Public Works announced Friday that DND employees will move to the new location in phases over the next five to seven years, with some Nortel employees remaining during the transition.

Public Works will assume all of Nortel's leases at the Carling campus. Ciena will be paid $33.5 million for the early termination of its lease, which has been shortened from 10 to five years.

A spokesman for Public Works said DND will continue to occupy its current downtown headquarters. The cost of refurbishing the building from electronic labs into office space has not yet been determined.



National Defence to take over former Nortel campus

Original link

The Department of National Defence will be moving a significant portion of its operations to the former Nortel campus on Carling Avenue.

Public Works announced Friday that it had closed the deal to buy the nearly 400-acre complex and its 12 huge buildings for $208 million. The release from Public Works says that DND will eventually take over the entire complex and its 2-million square feet of space.

In a statement, Minister of National Defence Peter MacKay said the government is proud to provide DND with "a new, modern home." MacKay also said housing a large portion of the capital region's defence community at one location is a major step forward in strengthening the entire defence team.

A third party review said the purchase of the nearly 400-acre complex was a good buy.

There has been speculation for years that DND would move to another location, however many employees of DND live in the east of the city and have indicated they wouldn't like it if their workplace moved to the west.

No timeline has been released for the relocation of DND.


----------



## Snakedoc

This is great news from an organizational standpoint.  Hopefully the transition can be made smoothly for pers living in the NCR over the next several years.


----------



## Nemo888

I wouldn't want a PMQ in Connaught. I would definitely not recommend digging around there.  There have been cases of Lyme in the training area as well. Not kid friendly. Don't get me going about the livability of Connaught's shacks. Over a century of history there though.


----------



## PMedMoe

It's been a while since the Nortel move has been in the news.

Defence hides high costs–again

Senior officials at the Department of National Defence made sure references to the $600-million-plus cost of renovating a former Nortel research complex were removed from public statements and documents, apparently fearful of what the public and MPs might think if they knew the cost of adapting the former high-tech company’s Ottawa campus to the department’s needs .... according to an email .... an assistant to Robert Fonberg, the department’s deputy minister, wrote that Fonberg was concerned about telling the public about the cost, asking: “Why are we using the $623m(illion) fit up cost? It is without context and will be a lightning rod!” That cost estimate was later removed from public documents about the purchase of the old Nortel real estate.

More at link

- mod edit to change link (similar content) IAW site owner instructions -


----------



## The Bread Guy

> _Mr. David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre, NDP):_  Mr. Speaker, Conservatives' lack of transparency on spending reached a new low this week. When the media asked how much the Department of National Defence's HQ renovation would cost, the government responded by saying, “Go file an access to information request”.  Now we find out that this paranoid government had the number of $623 million all along but would not release it to the public, so I ask the minister this question: what could possibly be the justification for keeping this number secret?
> 
> _Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence, CPC):_  Mr. Speaker, yes, in fact, the Department of National Defence and the public works department are collaborating to consolidate the workforce of national defence here in the nation's capital. We are moving forward with a plan to have those consolidated workforces go from 48 different buildings to 7 in the national capital. An independent third-party analysis has looked at this plan and has come back with the numbers. There will be a cost saving, a long-term ongoing savings, estimated at around $30 million a year. This is good news for taxpayers, and I know the member opposite will want to support it.
> 
> _Mr. David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre, NDP):_  Mr. Speaker, we will deal with the issue of whether or not we are getting value for dollars afterwards, but right now I would like an answer to the question of why the government felt it was necessary to keep a number that it already had secret from the media, secret from the public and secret from this Parliament.  What is the justification for the secrecy?
> 
> _Hon. Peter MacKay (Minister of National Defence, CPC):_  Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend for his question, albeit in a rant. I will answer the question again. This is a good move for the Department of National Defence. It will see us consolidate our headquarters at the Nortel campus, which was purchased, I again repeat, to save money. This was done looking at the spending levels that were recorded.  Where were they recorded? It was at a Senate hearing some nine months ago.  Where were they recorded? I spoke about this in transcript at the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, of which the member opposite was a member.


Hansard, 29 Nov 11


----------



## Wookilar

Anyone fill me in on the status of this?
My google-fu is fairly strong and the only time-lines I've seen mentioned are civvies guessing at a 2015-16 timeframe.

Career mangler has indicated that we will be moving to Ottawa next year. I do not know the city/area at all and we are starting to do our homework.

Does this make a commute from north of the city more reasonable?

This, hopefully, will be our last move (well, second last I suppose) so we _should_ be planted for a bit. If so, do not want to compromise too much on what we are looking for in a new home.

Also, who is moving? Specifically I am looking at where DLR or ADM(MAT) are/will be. Or am I just whistling Dixie hoping that we can actually plan that far out lol?

Thanks.

Wook


----------



## Remius

ADM (Mat) will be consolidating mostly at LSTL in Gatineau. Parking there is cheaper than in Ottawa, buses depending on where you are communting from can be a pain.  Regardless, if you are in Ottawa, the bridges can sometimes be an issue.


----------



## Occam

Crantor said:
			
		

> ADM (Mat) will be consolidating mostly at LSTL in Gatineau. Parking there is cheaper than in Ottawa, buses depending on where you are communting from can be a pain.  Regardless, if you are in Ottawa, the bridges can sometimes be an issue.



There's some consolidation going on at LStL, but it's still only going to be DGMEPM/DGAEPM/DGLEPM.  Much of the remainder of of ADM(Mat) will still be spread out over hell's creation the NCR.

Wookilar, unless you have a particular position number, you're going to need a crystal ball to figure out what site you'll be at, unfortunately.


----------



## Wookilar

Occam said:
			
		

> ... you're going to need a crystal ball to figure out what site you'll be at, unfortunately.



I have one, but the darn thing hazes over anytime I scry into the Ottawa valley  ;D. Must be a google maps filter or something ???

Thanks, figured I was trying to look too far out just yet.

Wook


----------



## CountDC

even a position number won't help as there is no garuntee you will be employed in it once you arrive at the unit.  I was supposed to be at Uplands when I was posted to Ottawa and ended up at Pearkes instead.  My next posting was supposed to be in LSTL but I stayed at Peakes.  Same with my current - another building but stayed at Pearkes.

Best to contact the unit and find out where they will actually be putting you, if that position is on the list to be moved (athough that can change) and if it is when is it slated to move.


----------



## McG

Looks like this move will pay for itself within a few years.


> [size=12pt]*DND saves $50M with office move* ....


Story text removed in accordance with site owner direction

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## bridges

This topic flares up from time to time in our org.  The scuttlebutt I'm hearing in the last couple of days is that TB has advised DND to revise its expectations in terms of the cost of the refit.  I believe the exact phrase was "We bought it for you, but we're not going to make it fancy."  Those looking to the move as a chance to finally have certain accns requirements met may be disappointed.

As well, in at least one org's case, the cubicle spaces have been counted up & found to be fewer than the # of people designated for moving there - so the consolidation may not be as extensive as originally thought.  

The hazy crystal ball continues.  I think we need a smiley for that...


----------



## medicineman

bridges said:
			
		

> As well, in at least one org's case, the cubicle spaces have been counted up & found to be fewer than the # of people designated for moving there - so the consolidation may not be as extensive as originally thought.



Couldn't possibly be because there might be fewer cubicle dwellers with the consolidation...some of which aren't yet aware that they're being evicted?

MM


----------



## bridges

medicineman said:
			
		

> Couldn't possibly be because there might be fewer cubicle dwellers with the consolidation...some of which aren't yet aware that they're being evicted?



If that were the case, the org in question wouldn't now be trying to decide which of its components will NOT move to the new building.    

Personally, I'm curious about (among many other things) how OC Transpo will adapt, once the site starts getting filled up.  Those pokey buses going from Moodie to Lincoln Fields aren't going to cut it.   They'll need some bigger Park & Ride lots too.


----------



## Snakedoc

Did a search and didn't find a more recent thread.  Looks like more delays and potential cost overruns.  Can DND get anything right in the procurement/project management world?  ???

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dnd-may-abandon-1b-move-to-former-nortel-site-because-of-surveillance-bugs-1.1477766

DND may abandon $1B move to former Nortel site because of surveillance bugs

CTVNews.ca Staff 
Published Monday, September 30, 2013 10:09PM EDT 
Last Updated Monday, September 30, 2013 11:23PM EDT

The Department of National Defence may not move into its new headquarters at a former Nortel Networks complex because the building is riddled with eavesdropping devices.
DND told CTV News it may abandon the move, and sources said it’s unlikely any other department would take over the former Nortel site because of the security risks.
Former Nortel employees allege the company was the target of Chinese espionage for nearly a decade.

Keith Murphy, CEO of the information security company Defence Intelligence, said it’s not a suitable home for DND.
“It seems an odd choice to choose to move an organization of that nature into a site that you know was compromised and a victim of espionage,” he told CTV News.
DND won’t discuss the security risk at the former Nortel campus, but said it takes the threat seriously.
The Conservative government has already set aside approximately $1 billion for its plan to move DND to the new headquarters.

“Spending $1 billion on a new headquarters, even if it’s state-of-the-art -- and of course, it isn’t -- is a really bad idea,” said retired lieutenant-general Andrew Leslie.
Documents obtained by the Ottawa Citizen show that then-Defence Minister Peter MacKay was warned about the security threat last year.
MacKay was informed in a briefing note that the costs to relocate could be substantially more than the $1 billion earmarked by Ottawa.

“This not only raises the level of difficulty of verifying appropriate security safeguards in the future, it will probably dramatically increase security costs and cause delays to reach full operational capability,” MacKay was told last year.

The briefing note was obtained by the Ottawa Citizen through an Access to Information request.
“I don’t think we should go forward without certainty that there will be a secure facility for the operations of the Canadian Forces,” said NDP defence critic Jack Harris.


----------



## McG

This is unfortunate.  We waste a lot of salary in time spent on shuttles moving between locations.

We also miss a lot of opportunities to coordinate/work-balance because people don't make the effort to know NDHQ beyond what is in their building.  Instead, I have seen offices build positions to duplicate work that is already done by another staff.

Maybe we bulldoze Nortel and build a Heptagon (more sides has to be better than the Pentagon, right?)


----------



## Edward Campbell

MCG said:
			
		

> This is unfortunate.  We waste a lot of salary in time spent on shuttles moving between locations.
> 
> We also miss a lot of opportunities to coordinate/work-balance because people don't make the effort to know NDHQ beyond what is in their building.  Instead, I have seen offices build positions to duplicate work that is already done by another staff.
> 
> Maybe we bulldoze Nortel and build a Heptagon (more sides has to be better than the Pentagon, right?)




But it was never going to be a proper consolidation, even though the _Nortel_ is, I believe, more than big enough for that. It was already a "given" that the _presence_ in Hull would remain and I heard ~ not confirmed ~ that both 101 Colonel By Drive and the Startop Road site were being retained. Such a big, costly ($1 Billion?) move only makes sense if consolidation is about 90%+ complete.

The _Nortel_ campus is a wonderful asset, but ...

     1. It needs vastly upgraded public transit which is not, currently, part of the City of Ottawa plan; and

     2. It is, possibly, not the _ideal_ location for an agency with high security requirements. In some respects a fairly tight _'scatter'_ of buildings, most with 100% DND occupancy, in one area _might_ a better idea from a security perspective.


----------



## ARMY_101

When I first heard of the move, the date was set at Christmas 2012. Then it was Christmas 2013.

... Now, after speaking with a Command CWO, it's pushed back to at least late 2017-2018 (go big or go home right?). His thinking was it was better to stop under-estimating the timeline and put everyone at ease for the time being, instead of being in perma-"we're moving in six months" status.

However, we should be given at least a year's notice so those affected can plan on buying homes in Kanata, sell their houses in Cornwall, etc.

They've also already canvassed various departments for their requirements: a few weeks ago they were counting cubicles, asking about preferred parking spaces (underground, above ground, handicapped, etc).


----------



## vonGarvin

No wonder we can't win wars: we can't even figure out where to put our NDHQ....


:not-again:


----------



## Journeyman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> .....we can't even figure out where to put our NDHQ....


Are they taking suggestions?    >


----------



## Edward Campbell

Technoviking said:
			
		

> No wonder we can't win wars: we can't even figure out where to put our NDHQ....
> 
> 
> :not-again:




The 11th Principle of War: *always site your CP as far away from the next higher HQ as possible.*


----------



## a_majoor

And now the move may be stopped or abandoned as listening devices have been found seeded on the Nortel Campus. The reports are unclear (there are suggestions they may have been part of a Chinese industrial espionage effort against Nortel back in the 1990's), but nothing official has been released.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Shilo, Wainwright, Suffield or how about the Arctic?


----------



## Remius

Likely scenario is some other government agencies/ministries with smaller less intense security needs will go there.  Several will consolidate there but not us.


----------



## vonGarvin

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The 11th Principle of War: *always site your CP as far away from the next higher HQ as possible.*



:rofl:


----------



## ARMY_101

Why they don't use Uplands, 45+ acres DND has already been leasing from the Crown for $1 a year for the past 50 years, I'll never understand.


----------



## PuckChaser

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Why they don't use Uplands, 45+ acres DND has already been leasing from the Crown for $1 a year for the past 50 years, I'll never understand.



Its almost a billion dollars just to wire the campus and set everything up. Now add another couple hundred million to build buildings that are similar in size to the Nortel campus and you'll get your answer.


----------



## dapaterson

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Why they don't use Uplands, 45+ acres DND has already been leasing from the Crown for $1 a year for the past 50 years, I'll never understand.



Samuel Byck.  22 Feb 1974.

(Or look at the copycats who succeeded on September 11, 2001.)


----------



## caocao

What we should have done is build a brand new complex in Uplands.  Lots of land, right by the airport, Bob's your uncle!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

caocao said:
			
		

> What we should have done is build a brand new complex in Uplands.  Lots of land, right by the airport, Bob's your uncle!



I think you are grossly under-estimating how much it would cost to build a brand new complex.  Do you think maybe they already thought about it and realized this will be a heck of a lot cheaper.  We are going to move to Carling Place, the question is no longer if, it is when.


----------



## caocao

Less then a billion my friend


----------



## PuckChaser

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> I think you are grossly under-estimating how much it would cost to build a brand new complex.  Do you think maybe they already thought about it and realized this will be a heck of a lot cheaper.  We are going to move to Carling Place, the question is no longer if, it is when.



And its the right decision, money-wise to consolidate into an already built complex, even if we have to sweep for bugs. Heck, they have to have a TCI done on big portions anyways for the secure areas.


----------



## dapaterson

caocao said:
			
		

> Less then a billion my friend



Have you seen the plan for the Nortel Campus?  How much of that is related to new construction / relocation / custom requirements that a greenfield construction would have to do, as well as produce the current footprint?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

caocao said:
			
		

> Less then a billion my friend



RSM, with all due respect, do you not think that it is cheaper to consolidate 40+ office buildings in and around the NCR into a site that is already built and already accommodates everyone?  Or do you think it would be cheaper to build a brand spanking new building?  if you think the latter please do explain your rationale to me because I am failing to see the dots connect.


----------



## AmmoTech90

caocao said:
			
		

> Less then a billion my friend



Probably not a lot less.  The new CSE building is 1/3 the size (72,000 m2 vice 207,000) and cost 880 million.  Admittedly there is a lot more security infrastructure there, but don't underestimate how much of NDHQ would have to fall into similar facilities.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Have you seen the plan for the Nortel Campus?  How much of that is related to new construction / relocation / custom requirements that a greenfield construction would have to do, as well as produce the current footprint?



Exactly, a lot of the costs associated with the moves are things we would have to do whether we built a new site or moved to Nortel.  DND is currently occupying nearly 50 (give or take a couple) office buildings around the NCR, leases will have to be broken, relocations will have to occur, a billion dollars is not that much money when dealing with the movement of thousands of people.  

It cost the US Army 11 billion dollars to move the Armour School from Fort Knox to Fort Benning in 2010.  Roughly 7,500 soldiers moved, so in comparison this doesn't seem expensive at all, in fact for the amount of people we are moving and the amount of stuff we need to close up, this seems pretty cheap.



			
				AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Probably not a lot less.  The new CSE building is 1/3 the size (72,000 m2 vice 207,000) and cost 880 million.  Admittedly there is a lot more security infrastructure there, but don't underestimate how much of NDHQ would have to fall into similar facilities.



It would cost far more not less.  Do you think the government, if given the chance, wouldn't try and save dime anywhere they could.  This is the cheapest and best COA, full stop.


----------



## ARMY_101

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Samuel Byck.  22 Feb 1974.
> 
> (Or look at the copycats who succeeded on September 11, 2001.)



??? Are you suggesting the proximity to the airport makes it a target?


----------



## caocao

I guess first we would need to establish if the 2.35 million ft2 (figures taken from google) of office space at the Nortel Campus is exactly what we need to accommodate the folks from the 40+ buildings in the NCR.  I have not seen the planning figures so i am unsure if the place is just the right size, way too big or too small.  Does anybody have any info on this?

As for commercial building cost in Ottawa, i have to admit that i do not know the price by ft2.


----------



## OldSolduer

Technoviking said:
			
		

> No wonder we can't win wars: we can't even figure out where to put our NDHQ....
> 
> 
> :not-again:



Ya really want an answer? :facepalm:


----------



## AmmoTech90

caocao said:
			
		

> I guess first we would need to establish if the 2.35 million ft2 (figures taken from google) of office space at the Nortel Campus is exactly what we need to accommodate the folks from the 40+ buildings in the NCR.  I have not seen the planning figures so i am unsure if the place is just the right size, way too big or too small.  Does anybody have any info on this?
> 
> As for commercial building cost in Ottawa, i have to admit that i do not know the price by ft2.



So you have no idea of our requirements and no idea of the costs, but you can confidently say what the cost will not exceed.

You work in NDHQ right?


----------



## The Bread Guy

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> You work in NDHQ right?


----------



## McG

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> It would cost far more not less.


Maybe.  Maybe not.  My default assumption would be to agree with you, but I would not stand on it as a certainty.
A new build with our communications and security considerations addressed in the initial design could, possibly, be cheaper than renovating an existing facility to address all of our needs.
I am too far away from the project to know if this possibility is a reality.


----------



## McG

... in any case, the newest reports are now saying that there are/were infact no "bugs" in Nortel.
Guess we can resume the plan.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Very interesting; bugs found, now no bugs found. Maybe a Young tech found a telephone router and didn't know what it was.


----------



## Kirkhill

Could you move NDHQ to Shilo?  Or Cold Lake?


----------



## PuckChaser

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Could you move NDHQ to Shilo?  Or Cold Lake?



We're focusing more on Arctic Sovereignty, lets move it to Iqaulit.


----------



## Remius

Colin P said:
			
		

> Very interesting; bugs found, now no bugs found. Maybe a Young tech found a telephone router and didn't know what it was.



Or maybe some guy revealed something he shouldn't have.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> We're focusing more on Arctic Sovereignty, lets move it to Iqaulit.



Hans Island ???


----------



## Kirkhill

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Hans Island ???



Sold

A twofer.


----------



## Robert0288

Probably a good way of cutting redundant staff positions. >


----------



## Armynewsguy

I hear that the Kingston penitentiary is available. Sure it might be a bit of a fixer upper but it's secure, close to the water with a great view.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Trust me, NDHQ is already a prison.


----------



## The Bread Guy

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Trust me, NDHQ is already a prison.


Like this?


----------



## OldSolduer

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Could you move NDHQ to Shilo?



Be silent!! 

Too close to Winnipeg.


----------



## Kirkhill

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Be silent!!
> 
> Too close to Winnipeg.



Ok.  OGBD and Hans Island for the win it is!


----------



## a_majoor

Didn't quite catch the full news report, but I think they said that even with the new campus, DND will still retain Disneyland at 101 Col By Dr?

Is this true? I thought the idea was to consolodate all the various buildings scattered around Ottawa.


----------



## Occam

The plan was for 101, Startop, LStL, LStL II, NPB and Hotel de Ville to remain, and the rest would be consolidated.


----------



## McG

Isn't Hotel de Ville rented space?  I thought it was supposed to be vacated with the open of LStL II.


----------



## AmmoTech90

MCG said:
			
		

> Isn't Hotel de Ville rented space?  I thought it was supposed to be vacated with the open of LStL II.



I heard the same, along with Startop not being retained when the lease is up.  101, LSL 1 and 2, and possibly NPB (because of the construction and equipment installed there) is what I heard.


----------



## Occam

MCG said:
			
		

> Isn't Hotel de Ville rented space?  I thought it was supposed to be vacated with the open of LStL II.



I'm not sure if it's rented or not.  LStL II is now mostly occupied with DGMEPM (who moved from next door) and DGAEPM (who moved from Cumberland, I think).  There's a bunch of space next door at LStL I (vacated by MEPM) being renovated, but I don't know who's earmarked to move in there.  The only residents there now are DGLEPM, the Mat Campus orderly room, some of DSCO and a bunch of smaller ADM(Mat) orgs.


----------



## McG

Occam said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if it's rented or not.  LStL II is now mostly occupied with DGMEPM (who moved from next door) and DGAEPM (who moved from Cumberland, I think).  There's a bunch of space next door at LStL I (vacated by MEPM) being renovated, but I don't know who's earmarked to move in there.  The only residents there now are DGLEPM, the Mat Campus orderly room, some of DSCO and a bunch of smaller ADM(Mat) orgs.


Did DLR move in with the Army Staff, or is it still on the main floor?
Vacant space should become home to the major procurement DGs in HdV and (I think) Constitution.


----------



## dapaterson

There have been multiple iterations of the plan.  Regardless, 25% of the DND/CAF footprint will remain in Gatineau.

The previous DM had come around to closing 101; not sure where that stands now.

Keep in mind that these decisions are not made in a vacuum; the overall footprint of the Federal government is considered as well.  For example, if you close 101, what department moves in?  Or do you demolish & rebuild something modern and functional (as is happening to a number of buildings in Ottawa - the Lorne Building replacement is nearing completion; the owner of the Constitution building is kicking everyone out in order to demolish and rebuild, and so on).

In an average week, I spend 5 to 10% of my time in transit between facilities in the NCR.  That's atypical, but it still represents a significant amount of lost time when multiplied across all the people in the NCR.  Consolidation would be a good thing.  Right now, for military personnel, a medical appointment and an appointment at clothing stores in the same day mean you won't be getting any work done - the hospital is in the east end of Ottawa, far from most other facilities, and clothing stores is across the river in Gatineau.


----------



## PMedMoe

dapaterson said:
			
		

> the hospital is in the east end of Ottawa



And you can blame the Federal government for that.  When hospitals in Ottawa were being closed due to the Health Services Restructuring Commission, the Montfort was on the chopping block.  Some allege that the only reason it stayed open was because it was to be the future site of NDMC.  Now, according to the timelines, it doesn't appear that way, but we all know that decisions like this don't get made overnight.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montfort_Hospital

I do know that after the "new" NDMC opened, an investigation was going on with the Board at the Montfort, several of who are retired CF personnel.



*Kind of like the new Jr Ranks built in Baden when they already knew the base was closing.  That was part of the deal for the sale.


----------



## Occam

MCG said:
			
		

> Did DLR move in with the Army Staff, or is it still on the main floor?
> Vacant space should become home to the major procurement DGs in HdV and (I think) Constitution.



I believe DLR is still there, I don't get over to the other building often unless I have to harass the LEPM folks for info about radios they manage.  DAR and DNR are both at LStL II.  Makes sense that DGMPD would be out here, but making sense is not always first consideration it seems...   ;D


----------



## Armynewsguy

DLR still occupies a big chunk of the main floor at LSTL. In addition there are still some DLR folks at Hotel de Ville waiting for someone to give the pull pole order, then they will join the rest of us in LSTL.


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But it was never going to be a proper consolidation, even though the _Nortel_ is, I believe, more than big enough for that. It was already a "given" that the _presence_ in Hull would remain and I heard ~ not confirmed ~ that both 101 Colonel By Drive and the Startop Road site were being retained. Such a big, costly ($1 Billion?) move only makes sense if consolidation is about 90%+ complete.
> 
> The _Nortel_ campus is a wonderful asset, but ...
> 
> 1. It needs vastly upgraded public transit which is not, currently, part of the City of Ottawa plan; and
> 
> 2. It is, possibly, not the _ideal_ location for an agency with high security requirements. In some respects a fairly tight _'scatter'_ of buildings, most with 100% DND occupancy, in one area _might_ a better idea from a security perspective.




The new City of Ottawa _Transportation Master Plan_ is out and it does not extend LRT to Moodie Drive.

Part of the plan aims to pacify the Eastern suburb of Orleans, where many military folks live, by making it top priority for LRT expansion but it fails to go all the way to the prospective NDHQ site.


----------



## Ostrozac

Occam said:
			
		

> The plan was for 101, Startop, LStL, LStL II, NPB and Hotel de Ville to remain, and the rest would be consolidated.



So no more units at Uplands, Leitrim, Tunney's Pasture or Booth Street? That seems like even more movement than I would expect.

And I'm sure we're also keeping Connaught and Shirley's Bay -- they are basically next door to the Nortel Campus.


----------



## Old EO Tech

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> So no more units at Uplands, Leitrim, Tunney's Pasture or Booth Street? That seems like even more movement than I would expect.
> 
> And I'm sure we're also keeping Connaught and Shirley's Bay -- they are basically next door to the Nortel Campus.



I don't think Uplands and Leitrim are going anywere, and if you mean the MCE on Booth st, I'd assume they are moving since NRCan are moving to a new complex in the GTA area at some point in time.  No idea about what functions are being done at Tunney's or if it can be moved.

Jon


----------



## dapaterson

Remember, it's the NDHQ consolidation project.  Leitrim, MCE and some others are not part of NDHQ; they are units in the NCR - there is an important difference.


----------



## McG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Remember, it's the NDHQ consolidation project.  Leitrim, MCE and some others are not part of NDHQ; they are units in the NCR - there is an important difference.


But, some could be moved to Gatineau and provide a military footprint that would offsett NDHQ offices coming to the Ontario side (thereby increasing the extent to which NDHQ consolidates).


----------



## Lightguns

Bit off topic but I think "It's time to consolidate NDHQ & send them to Afganistan as a brigade group!"


----------



## OldSolduer

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Bit off topic but I think "It's time to consolidate NDHQ & send them to Afganistan as a brigade group!"



Devious bugger you are,,,..


----------



## Gunner98

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And you can blame the Federal government for that.  When hospitals in Ottawa were being closed due to the Health Services Restructuring Commission, the Montfort was on the chopping block.  Some allege that the only reason it stayed open was because it was to be the future site of NDMC.  Now, according to the timelines, it doesn't appear that way, but we all know that decisions like this don't get made overnight.*



We can't forget that Aline (Mrs. Jean) Chretien was on the Board of Directors at The Montfort Hospital when the "S.O.S. Montfort" movement started.


----------



## The Bread Guy

It's official - from the PWGSC Info-machine ....


> The Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Public Works and Government Services and the Honourable Robert Nicholson, Minister of National Defence, today announced the consolidation of the Department of National Defence’s (DND) headquarters at the Carling Campus. The move will achieve $750 million in net savings in accommodations costs over a 25 year period, plus an additional $160 million for DND in cost avoidance.
> 
> (....)
> 
> With a one-time refit investment of $506 million completed over 6 years, DND occupancy of the Carling Campus is expected to generate net savings in excess of $750 million over a 25 year period as compared to maintaining the status quo in leased accommodation. DND and Shared Services Canada will fund the project from existing internal resources and no new funds will be required.
> 
> The additional $160 million in cost-avoidance will be achieved as a result of reduced DND expenditures for administration and general overhead from the consolidation of 8500 personnel in one location. The project will be conducted in a three-phased approach, starting this month; DND and Canadian Armed Forces personnel will begin to move to the campus in late 2015 and the project is expected to be completed by 2019 ....


----------



## Edward Campbell

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> It's official - from the PWGSC Info-machine ....




It's a pretty good move, it would be a damned site better move if most of 101 Colonel By Drive (a very few offices for the MND, etc) need to be "doubled" in the downtown core and at the Carling campus), all of the four sites in Gatineau* and 1600 Star Top road were also moved there.

I know there is a _policy_ that major departments have 25% of their NCR footprint in Gatineau. It was a dumb policy when it was initiated and it's even dumber now.

There's no need for a satellite HQ at Star Top Road - in fact there's no need for the "dot coms," they are part of the HQ bloat morbid obesity problem.

____
* Louis St. Laurent Building at 555 Boulevard de la Carrière and a building at 455 Boulevard de la Carrière;
   241 Boulevard Cité-des-Jeunes;
   National Printing Bureau at 45 Sacré-Coeur Boulevard; and
   Hôtel de Ville at 105 Hôtel de Ville Street.


----------



## GAP

> The move will achieve $750 million in net savings in accommodations costs over a 25 year period, plus an additional $160 million for DND in cost avoidance.



Well, there's the money you guys were short for.......

Put it to good use.... ;D


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> No idea about what functions are being done at Tunney's or if it can be moved.
> 
> Jon



Mostly IT support, CIS engineering and server hosting. Which Notel campus ought to be exceptionally well suited for.


----------



## PuckChaser

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> Mostly IT support, CIS engineering and server hosting. Which Notel campus ought to be exceptionally well suited for.



But its also difficult to move a lot of those links. Probably a little easier since we won't have a giant mission to support soon.


----------



## McG

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> It's official - from the PWGSC Info-machine ....


... and now in the media:  http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/promises+free+move+into+former+Nortel+campus+from+2015/9285351/story.html




			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It's a pretty good move, it would be a damned site better move if most of 101 Colonel By Drive (a very few offices for the MND, etc need to be "doubled" in the downtown core and at the Carling campus), all of the four sites in Gatineau* and 1600 Star Top road were also moved there.
> 
> I know there is a _policy_ that major departments have 25% of their NCR footprint in Gatineau. It was a dumb policy when it was initiated and it's even dumber now.
> 
> There's no need for a satellite HQ at Star Top Road - in fact there's no need for the "dot coms," they are part of the HQ bloat morbid obesity problem.


Agreed.  The move would also seem a convenient oportunity to rationalize the headquarters structure itself.  Old structures could stand-down in the old offices and new structures stand-up in Nortel.


----------



## Journeyman

GAP said:
			
		

> Well, there's the money you guys were short for.......



Those 'savings' are to be realized over 25 years -- about the length of time for the good idea faeries to decide we need to change from pips & crowns back to bars, take white-out to everything "Royal"......and the next set of PowerPoints on the Sea King replacement.

Please forgive me if I don't factor this 'windfall' into training and equipment for the troops who actually need it just yet.

/cynicism


----------



## Transporter

One could also make a valid case that this move makes a lot of sense from a Force Protection / Physical Security perspective as well, though I don't see this aspect mentioned very often if at all. One just needs to look at the current security shortfalls of the Star Top location to get a sense of just how vulnerable some of our key infrastructure and C2 elements are to a determined and not-all-that-sophisticated bad guy... not to mention its location immediately adjacent to a storage yard full of explosive liquid gas cylinders. Oddly enough, looks like we're keeping this one. Must be to help placate all those public servant homeowners in Orleans.


----------



## Occam

Transporter said:
			
		

> Oddly enough, looks like we're keeping this one. Must be to help placate all those public servant homeowners in Orleans.



Startop is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the relocations that will be taking place to Nortel Campus.  Why would you make an absurd comment that retaining Startop would have anything to do with public servant homeowners from Orleans?


----------



## George Wallace

Transporter said:
			
		

> One could also make a valid case that this move makes a lot of sense from a Force Protection / Physical Security perspective as well, though I don't see this aspect mentioned very often if at all. One just needs to look at the current security shortfalls of the Star Top location to get a sense of just how vulnerable some of our key infrastructure and C2 elements are to a determined and not-all-that-sophisticated bad guy... not to mention its location immediately adjacent to a storage yard full of explosive liquid gas cylinders. Oddly enough, looks like we're keeping this one. Must be to help placate all those public servant homeowners in Orleans.



Force Protection and Physical Security?  Do you have any knowledge at all about the Nortel Campus?  Do you have any information as to why DND is not moving anyone into that location anytime in the very near future?

That Campus is a serious Security concern at the moment.  One of the main reasons Nortel went under is that amount of Industrial Espionage that took place on that Campus.  The whole place should be gutted.


----------



## MilEME09

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The whole place should be gutted. *Burned*



Fixed


----------



## Haggis

Maybe I missed it, but what will happen to the messes now located in the downtown core?  As I understand it, the Officer's Messes (RCN, CA and RCAF) own their buildings outright.

On a related note, what are your thoughts on Mess participation after the move?  Should the messes remain in the downtown core?  Should they be re-established at Nortel?  Maybe at Connaught Ranges?

Should they be closed and the business of hosting formal functions contracted out to civilian establishments?


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Messes will no doubt be stood up at Nortel Campus.

DND has 46 separate work areas scattered around NCR. The idea behind the move will bring it down to 7:

1) Nortel
2) NDHQ
3) Louis St Laurent
4) Louis St. Laurent 2
5) Startop
6) Canought Ranges
7) Montfort

If I am a betting man I would bet that there will be a rationalization of messes in the NCR. Perhaps the various officer messes will consolidate, the JNCO or SNCO messes will likely stay where they are. Nortel will likely host a JR, SW Mess, and Officer Mess as well.

The whole move is a complicated one, but it is only smart from a security and dollars and sense perspective. Securing offices in 46 locations, including ones that are shared with other government departments and private organizations is a nightmare, from a physical, personnel and communications security perspective. Leasing all these various offices is an expensive exercise as well.

I'm certain Nortel will be well swept for espionage as well.


----------



## Haggis

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> Messes will no doubt be stood up at Nortel Campus.



While I agree with your _belief_, how do you address the questions I asked.  Is this the best, most cost efficient COA?  Will standing up messes at Nortel perpetuate or kill what little Mess life remains in the NCR?


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Reindeer Meatloaf said:
			
		

> While I agree with your _belief_, how do you address the questions I asked.  Is this the best, most cost efficient COA?  Will standing up messes at Nortel perpetuate or kill what little Mess life remains in the NCR?



Having been in the NCR, there was not much mess life to begin with.

Even with what is likely a higher concerntration of military people than anywhere else in Canada (thousands in a tower that is a 3 or 4 minute walk) the messes were essentially empty most of the time. 

It's simply the way things are going with messes. No one sticks around anymore to hang out in a bar after work. The military has become more of a job, and the cultural change regarding drinking and driving is much more pronounced with the current generation of soldiers. 

Frankly I think the mess is going to soon be a thing of the past. Walk into any mess now, even on a base of 5 thousand soldiers, the mess will be more or less populated by the same 20 or 30 people. Is it really serving the average dues paying member?

But I digress, that is another topic.

I would make the best guess as there will be an NCM, SW and Officer's mess at Nortel based on the idea that the concentration is sufficient and it is a 30 minute bus ride (45 minute drive during after work rush hour) to get to the downtown messes. It would be an injustice to require them to pay into the mess they are more than likely never going to step into.


----------



## Transporter

Occam said:
			
		

> Startop is a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the relocations that will be taking place to Nortel Campus.  Why would you make an absurd comment that retaining Startop would have anything to do with public servant homeowners from Orleans?


 It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, not literal. Do you live in Orleans by chance?


----------



## Transporter

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Force Protection and Physical Security?  Do you have any knowledge at all about the Nortel Campus?  Do you have any information as to why DND is not moving anyone into that location anytime in the very near future?
> 
> That Campus is a serious Security concern at the moment.  One of the main reasons Nortel went under is that amount of Industrial Espionage that took place on that Campus.  The whole place should be gutted.


 Yes I do. And everything you just stated as fact has been disavowed by DND. There is no evidence of past industrial espionage using physical listening devices within the Nortel complex. It has been alleged by former employees but nothing has been found to back that up. Show me the proof if you're so informed.


----------



## George Wallace

Transporter said:
			
		

> ...... There is no evidence of past industrial espionage using physical listening devices within the Nortel complex. It has been alleged by former employees but nothing has been found to back that up. Show me the proof if you're so informed.



I see you have been reading the press.  There are other means of 'listening/observing/recording' other than physical devices.  If I may quote YOU: Show me the proof if you're so informed -- that nothing has been found.  Please don't insult me with a statement from a PAFFO.

On my part, even if I had facts that you question, I could not inform you, nor expose any sources of such information.  Not knowing you.  Not on the Internet.  

Guess this is a Stalemate, as I am sure you have no intentions of showing me any proof of there not being anything found.


----------



## Transporter

Well played sir... self-declared stalemate from a position of undefendable "fact stating".


----------



## George Wallace

Transporter said:
			
		

> Well played sir... self-declared stalemate from a position of undefendable "fact stating".



And you should know better.


----------



## Transporter

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And you should know better.


 Actually, my original post only spoke of the Nortel Complex providing benefits from a Force Protection and Physical Security standpoint. I stand by that assertion.


----------



## Occam

Transporter said:
			
		

> It was a bit tongue-in-cheek, not literal. Do you live in Orleans by chance?



Not now, but I did up until moving further out of the city this summer for my CF retirement move.  It just struck me as an odd statement to make, one with a note of mild disdain for public servants.  Just so you know, there are probably just as many CF members in Orleans as there are DND public servants - and they're all going to be faced with a loss in real estate value and a hefty commute.  Eventually things will become stable again as people being posted into the NCR buy homes closer to Nortel and the CF/DND personnel presence in Orleans dwindles, but that'll take a while.  The real estate market in Ottawa is already very soft and flooded with available homes - this is only going to make it more difficult to sell in Orleans.  If I were still living there, I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be a subject for tongue-in-cheek humour.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Ottawa is a city of about a million people, moving a couple of hundred DND jobs to another part of the city won't have that much effect on the price of houses in Orleans. No doubt that same building will fill back up with some other company. Plus looks like the new job announcement by the Ontario government and Cisco is mostly going to benefit Ottawa.


----------



## Transporter

Occam said:
			
		

> Not now, but I did up until moving further out of the city this summer for my CF retirement move.  It just struck me as an odd statement to make, one with a note of mild disdain for public servants.  Just so you know, there are probably just as many CF members in Orleans as there are DND public servants - and they're all going to be faced with a loss in real estate value and a hefty commute.  Eventually things will become stable again as people being posted into the NCR buy homes closer to Nortel and the CF/DND personnel presence in Orleans dwindles, but that'll take a while.  The real estate market in Ottawa is already very soft and flooded with available homes - this is only going to make it more difficult to sell in Orleans.  If I were still living there, I'm pretty certain it wouldn't be a subject for tongue-in-cheek humour.


 I am well aware of everything you've just stated and I have absolutely no disdain for public servants. Don't know that I could say the same for public servant unions however - the ones who were decrying the purchase of the Nortel Complex in the first place - but certainly not public servants. As a west-end homeowner, if I've hurt your feelings, I apologize.


----------



## Occam

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> Ottawa is a city of about a million people, moving a couple of hundred DND jobs to another part of the city won't have that much effect on the price of houses in Orleans. No doubt that same building will fill back up with some other company. Plus looks like the new job announcement by the Ontario government and Cisco is mostly going to benefit Ottawa.



Couple of hundred?  There are 8500 employees that will take part in the move to Nortel.  I think the number that come from Orleans will amount to more than a couple of hundred.  Speaking as someone who recently had a house on the market in Orleans, I'm going to disagree with you - prices are already coming down (faster than other areas within the NCR) for home sales, and the DND move to Nortel will only exacerbate that, although the effects will probably only last a few years.  Hard to ignore the effects if you're one of the ones trying to sell your house, though.

Those Cisco jobs will likely land in Kanata - fuelling even more demand for homes in the west end.



			
				Transporter said:
			
		

> I am well aware of everything you've just stated and I have absolutely no disdain for public servants. Don't know that I could say the same for public servant unions however - the ones who were decrying the purchase of the Nortel Complex in the first place - but certainly not public servants. As a west-end homeowner, if I've hurt your feelings, I apologize.



Those PS union executives are paid to represent the union members, so if enough union members make it known that DND's relocation is an issue, then they're simply doing their jobs.  The unions are obligated to push DND to request additional public transit support from OC Transpo, and I'm sure there are other issues that are being brought up.  CF members don't have a union to push for these things, so consider yourself blessed that there are unions that have parallel interests to those of the CF members.  I live in Limoges and work in Gatineau, and that work location is highly unlikely to change, so you haven't hurt my feelings.  However, I can sympathize with those who still live in Orleans and will have a longer commute, and with those who will suffer equity losses in their homes.  The effect of all of this won't be massive to the city as a whole, but it's certainly going to have a measurable effect in the east end that cannot be dismissed.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I'm with Occam on this, it is a big deal and one local politician has already (six months ago) tried to derail it by, in good Canadian fashin, playing the language card. 

There is some West-end vs East-end political tension here in Ottawa ~ by the way, I'm long retired and I live in the downtown core, so  k: ~ the city's transit plan is, in fact, designed to placate the East-end, first, and then the South-end in order to make up for the West-end's perceived advantages (which might be deeply embedded in our _culture_).

Now that the move appears to be "on," again I suspect (hope, anyway) that the _feds_ will may (should) tell the city that the city's Transit Master Plan needs to be amended to include a rail extension to the Carling Campus if it wants federal funding.*

Anyway, I doubt that local politics can stop or even stall the move but there are real people involved in all this - literally thousands of military personnel and DND civilian employees - who live in the Eastern suburbs and will feel the impact of a move to the Carling Campus, and the impact they feel will be passed on to the communities in the Eastern suburbs.

Change of topic

*Messes*

The right answer is to build a single dining facility at the Carling Campus ~ maybe with some private "function rooms" for e.g. GOFOs and equivalent civil servants and groups who want (rare) "private" gatherings. But, we have discussed the future of messes in other threads here on Army.ca and I doubt there is a need for a traditional "drinking/dining mess" in NDHQ.

What about the existing Messes is the downtown core? My guess is that the three officers' messes, at least, _can_ (but maybe oughtn't to) survive so long as serving members are required to pay dues. (I'm not aware of the financial situation of the other messes.) If those three messes were smart they would consolidate into one, but ...

_____
* And to the Ottawa Airport, too, I suspect


----------



## dapaterson

Carling Campus already includes food service areas; last time I was there there was still a Tim Horton's in operation inside the facility, with adequate space already configured for several additional cafeterias.

As for formal dining: provide a shuttle and leverage the facilities at Connaught.

Indeed, oblige folks to use Connaught when on TD; it will reduce hotel costs, and given the state of the shacks, will reduce TD to the bare minimum required.

Heck, order the IR folks into shacks in Connaught after two years - methinks we'd see a massive reduction in the IR bill...


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

There doesn't need to be a mess at all in Carling. There's no one living in close to carling campus. Just having a civilian cafeteria like everywhere else in Ottawa right now and people can choose to eat there or somewhere else.

A drinking mess is another ball of wax, unless they are going to allow people not to pay into a mess there should be the 3 drinking messes located there.

As far as people living in Orleans, this plan for Carling campus has been in the works for a long time now, if you bought in Orleans you made a choice, like any of us that buy houses. DND isn't responsible in locating your work close to your home.

Now, personally, I think if someone bought in Orleans within 40 km of their place of work and this relocation now puts them outside 40 km, then they should get a cost move if they wish to relocate closer to the west end. It would be very expensive for DND, but I think it's only fair. Saving that, people that bought before the relocation announcement should get a cost move.


----------



## George Wallace

The announcement that DND was moving to the NORTEL Campus is not a recent announcement.  It was made several years ago.  In that time, CF members working at the various DND offices in the city would have more than likely been posted out and new members posted in.  This gave, and still gives, CF members newly posted to Ottawa the opportunity to buy closer to the Nortel Campus and avoid Orleans.  Civilian employees are not affected the same way in this circumstance.

Orleans was popular with all DND and CF employees for its access to downtown via OC Transpo and the fact that a house in Orleans was at least $40K less that the same house in Kanata.  Soft housing market that may mean a loss in the sale of a home in Orleans and the purchase of a newer more expensive home in the West end is not an attractive option.

Civilian employees will not have the same circumstances as the CF members, as they are not moved as often, if ever.  Besides, many civilian employees don't live in Orleans anyway, so this whole argument is more or less a Red Herring (except for one Federal Minister who has raised the Language Card.).


----------



## Transporter

Occam said:
			
		

> Those PS union executives are paid to represent the union members, so if enough union members make it known that DND's relocation is an issue, then they're simply doing their jobs.  The unions are obligated to push DND to request additional public transit support from OC Transpo, and I'm sure there are other issues that are being brought up.  CF members don't have a union to push for these things, so consider yourself blessed that there are unions that have parallel interests to those of the CF members.  I live in Limoges and work in Gatineau, and that work location is highly unlikely to change, so you haven't hurt my feelings.  However, I can sympathize with those who still live in Orleans and will have a longer commute, and with those who will suffer equity losses in their homes.  The effect of all of this won't be massive to the city as a whole, but it's certainly going to have a measurable effect in the east end that cannot be dismissed.


 Please, enough with the blatantly obvious. Also, I have never, nor will I ever, consider myself blessed for anything that a federal public service union does.  In fact - since you brought it up - I find it insulting that anything I get as a military member has to be tied to whatever the public service gets rather than it being based entirely on the merits of military service (positively or negatively). I'd rather not have my service, and the compensation I receive for it, tied to what a federal public servant receives. I don't see us a being equal, or even similar, at all. Pretty radical thinking eh?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Transporter said:
			
		

> Please, enough with the blatantly obvious. Also, I have never, nor will I ever, consider myself blessed for anything that a federal public service union does.  In fact - since you brought it up - I find it insulting that anything I get as a military member has to be tied to whatever the public service gets rather than it being based entirely on the merits of military service (positively or negatively). I'd rather not have my service, and the compensation I receive for it, tied to what a federal public servant receives. I don't see us a being equal, or even similar, at all. Pretty radical thinking eh?




Trust me, Transporter ... those of us who served in uniform before our pay was tied, _bench marked_ was the term they used back then, to the public service recall how poorly paid we were. We You are Canadian soldiers: you work for a population that earnestly dislikes spending money on you ~ not for facilities, not for equipment and not for salaries. The decision to tie our your pay an benefits to the public service has been a *blessing* for two generations of Canadian sailors, soldiers and air force personnel. You may not like the public service unions but, believe me, they, not some MND or general,  not even Rick Hillier, got you your current salary.


----------



## Transporter

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Trust me, Transporter ... those of us who served in uniform before our pay was tied, _bench marked_ was the term they used back then, to the public service recall how poorly paid we were. We You are Canadian soldiers: you work for a population that earnestly dislikes spending money on you ~ not for facilities, not for equipment and not for salaries. The decision to tie our your pay an benefits to the public service has been a *blessing* for two generations of Canadian sailors, soldiers and air force personnel. You may not like the public service unions but, believe me, they, not some MND or general,  not even Rick Hillier, got you your current salary.


 In a round-about way, yes they did - I get all of that. And I still feel insulted that that is what it took to do so.


----------



## Edward Campbell

It wasn't "round about," at all. It was, and still is, very direct: PS unions bargain for their members, government finally agrees to a pay package ... shortly after we you get a pay package based on the various _bench marks_. They bargain for you and, I suggest, without them you would not be anywhere near as well paid as you are ... nor would my pension be as good as it is.


----------



## Transporter

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It wasn't "round about," at all. It was, and still is, very direct: PS unions bargain for their members, government finally agrees to a pay package ... shortly after we you get a pay package based on the various _bench marks_. They bargain for you and, I suggest, without them you would not be anywhere near as well paid as you are ... nor would my pension be as good as it is.


 Once again, I know how the compensation system works. I don't have a misunderstanding of it, nor am I confused by it (but I do take issue with your statement that the PS unions bargain for me). My issue is with the fact that is the way it is... we get tossed a bone based on how successful, or not, a PS union can negotiate public service union interests (not military service interests). I think we're straying way off topic now so I'll shut up.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

I think given the current climate, we're better off separated from the public service. 

The current government seems to think they can score political points by cutting the public service jobs and benefits. Ideally I wouldn't want to be throwing our lot in with theirs (look what happened to the pension split).


----------



## George Wallace

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> I think given the current climate, we're better off separated from the public service.
> 
> The current government seems to think they can score political points by cutting the public service jobs and benefits. Ideally I wouldn't want to be throwing our lot in with theirs (look what happened to the pension split).



RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

You really are bizarre.  Your logic in recent topics escapes me.  You sure you have any idea of what the heck you are talking about?  It really doesn't seem that way to me.  This is only one of your more illogical statements, and so out in left field to really not even be considered valid in any way, shape or form.   You comments are those of a civilian with no knowledge of the military, or that of a Pte who has not the smarts to absorb what was being taught him/her.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

George Wallace said:
			
		

> RADOPSIGOPACCISOP
> 
> You really are bizarre.  Your logic in recent topics escapes me.  You sure you have any idea of what the heck you are talking about?  It really doesn't seem that way to me.  This is only one of your more illogical statements, and so out in left field to really not even be considered valid in any way, shape or form.   You comments are those of a civilian with no knowledge of the military, or that of a Pte who has not the smarts to absorb what was being taught him/her.



Buds, you are heavy on the ad hominum attacks and light on actual substance. If you disagree with my statements, make your argument. Otherwise, you don't know me, don't know where I've been, or what perspectives I may have on topics that you are in the dark about.


----------



## George Wallace

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> Buds, you are heavy on the ad hominum attacks and light on actual substance. If you disagree with my statements, make your argument. Otherwise, you don't know me, don't know where I've been, or what perspectives I may have on topics that you are in the dark about.



From your comments, I have the impression you have been no where.  They are just too bizarre.


----------



## Occam

Transporter said:
			
		

> Please, enough with the blatantly obvious. Also, I have never, nor will I ever, consider myself blessed for anything that a federal public service union does.  In fact - since you brought it up - I find it insulting that anything I get as a military member has to be tied to whatever the public service gets rather than it being based entirely on the merits of military service (positively or negatively). I'd rather not have my service, and the compensation I receive for it, tied to what a federal public servant receives. I don't see us a being equal, or even similar, at all. Pretty radical thinking eh?



You keep saying everything is blatantly obvious, but you also keep saying things that show you don't fully understand the compensation system.  Your pay is tied to the benchmarks of the PS.  The "military factor" is then added in - I'll leave you to Google that term.  Many, but not all CF positions are equal to those carried out by the PS.  You have AS and CR employees working alongside RMS Clerks...you have EL and EG employees working alongside numerous technical CF trades...and you have ENGs working alongside CSE and MSE officers.  My experience is Navy, but other parallels can be drawn to the Air Force and Army trades.  Fact of the matter is, that's the system the CF is under now, like it or not.  You reap the benefit of PS successes, and share in the losses (see Severance Pay).

Back on the Nortel issue:  While the initial announcement that DND was to be the new tenant at the Nortel site was only three years ago, there have been no shortage of media stories over the same period calling into question DND's resolve in carrying it out.  You can't blame people for buying in Orleans based upon the age-old military premise - it ain't official until the ink is dry.  Were I in a "posted into Ottawa" situation over the last three years, I'm pretty certain I would have bought based on where DND's sites are, not where they might be based on a bunch of variables.

edit: to include reference to Officer/PS comparisons


----------



## Transporter

Occam said:
			
		

> You keep saying everything is blatantly obvious, but you also keep saying things that show you don't fully understand the compensation system.  Your pay is tied to the benchmarks of the PS.  The "military factor" is then added in - I'll leave you to Google that term.  Many, but not all CF positions are equal to those carried out by the PS.  You have AS and CR employees working alongside RMS Clerks...you have EL and EG employees working alongside numerous technical CF trades...and you have ENGs working alongside CSE and MSE officers.  My experience is Navy, but other parallels can be drawn to the Air Force and Army trades.  Fact of the matter is, that's the system the CF is under now, like it or not.  You reap the benefit of PS successes, and share in the losses (see Severance Pay).
> 
> Back on the Nortel issue:  While the initial announcement that DND was to be the new tenant at the Nortel site was only three years ago, there have been no shortage of media stories over the same period calling into question DND's resolve in carrying it out.  You can't blame people for buying in Orleans based upon the age-old military premise - it ain't official until the ink is dry.  Were I in a "posted into Ottawa" situation over the last three years, I'm pretty certain I would have bought based on where DND's sites are, not where they might be based on a bunch of variables.
> 
> edit: to include reference to Officer/PS comparisons


 I fully, 100%, unequivocally, without reservation, in the absolute clearest of terms, understand how the military compensation system works and don't need it explained to me. It is you who are failing to understand the point that I've made; that being, I don't disagree that it is the way it is, I just don't agree that should be that way.

Hard to predict the future. Glad I got "lucky" and bought in the West end.


----------



## Journeyman

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> .......you don't know me, don't know where I've been, or what perspectives I may have....


Correct: we can only judge by your words.  And by those words, the _impression_ you are leaving is that of the loud guy at the corner of the bar who has an opinion or claims expertise on pretty much everything....despite growing evidence to the contrary.

In "Saving Money in the PRes":


			
				RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> ...... I don't think there is a real use for the reserves.


That whole thread has turned into a train-wreck, illustrating only that you have no idea of the legislated role of the Reserves, (or how much they cost given your wild-ass guess about swapping 20,000 Reservists for 5,000 RegF).

But you weren't content to demonstrate your lack of knowledge of the Reserves,


			
				RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> I think given the current climate, we're better off separated from the public service.


Thank you for confirming that you haven't the vaguest idea of how Treasury Board and Public Service bench marks for military pay works....and how we continue to benefit from it.

Hell, in "It's time to consolidate NDHQ," you even manage to contradict yourself, saying that:





			
				RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> DND isn't responsible in locating your work close to your home.
> [AND]
> .....they should get a cost move if they wish to relocate closer to the west end.



Granted, you appear to have a modicum of schooling, recognizing terms like "ad hominum" and "opportunity costs." Needless to say, there is no shortage of examples where education does not necessarily mean knowledgeable. 


So yes, while we neither know of you or your experience, you leave no doubt about your perspectives.  
Let me assure you that you've garnered a significant amount of PM discussion.  
From that, I can tell you that the reason there isn't a lot of argument against your opinions is not that there's a consensus regarding your brilliance, 
but rather *because a growing number of people are just setting you to <ignore>*


Welcome to the site; awesome first impression.   :not-again:


ps - save any response. As noted, you're set to ignore; your 'wisdom' will be wasted.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

To clarify, nothing contradictory about my statement. I said it's not DND's responsibility to locate your work close to your home. It is DND's responsibility to pay to locate your home close to your work when they change your place of work. 

In this case, where they are significantly moving the workplace of many people, especially given the long commuting times in Ottawa (by public transit as well as private vehicle).

In that case I think DND ought to move people in places like Orleans and Rockland.


----------



## Occam

Transporter said:
			
		

> I fully, 100%, unequivocally, without reservation, in the absolute clearest of terms, understand how the military compensation system works and don't need it explained to me. It is you who are failing to understand the point that I've made; that being, I don't disagree that it is the way it is, I just don't agree that should be that way.



Oh, I got it - I just don't buy what you're selling because there are too many parallels to dismiss a link between CF and PS compensation.  I'm curious to hear how you'd turn the CF pay and benefits system on its ear and set it up your way...in a new thread, or in one that likely already exists on that topic.


----------



## Remius

I think what one has to look at is that many PS employees that work at 101 and live in Orleans will just simply  attempt to move to another job that keeps them closer.  DND isn't the only show in town and neither do most PS employees live in Orleans.  I know plenty of PS people thrilled that DND is moving out to the west end because they live there.  Many also live in the South end (Riverside South, Hunt Club, Farhaven etc) that won't see too much of a disruption to get out there.   

So the person who works at 101 who might be moving could say transfer to some other job at LSTL or another department and the dude who works at Transport Canada downtown might try to get in at DND because he lives in Kanata.

Kanata will likely see and upswing in military types moving there (heck even Arnprior, Almonte, Carp won't be that far off and will likely be cheaper alternatives) anmd Orleans will see a drop in Military folks over teh long run but I doubt it will be as drastic or as rapid as one would think.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Crantor said:
			
		

> I think what one has to look at is that many PS employees that work at 101 and live in Orleans will just simply  attempt to move to another job that keeps them closer.  DND isn't the only show in town and neither do most PS employees live in Orleans.  I know plenty of PS people thrilled that DND is moving out to the west end because they live there.  Many also live in the South end (Riverside South, Hunt Club, Farhaven etc) that won't see too much of a disruption to get out there.
> 
> So the person who works at 101 who might be moving could say transfer to some other job at LSTL or another department and the dude who works at Transport Canada downtown might try to get in at DND because he lives in Kanata.
> 
> Kanata will likely see and upswing in military types moving there (heck even Arnprior, Almonte, Carp won't be that far off and will likely be cheaper alternatives) anmd Orleans will see a drop in Military folks over teh long run but I doubt it will be as drastic or as rapid as one would think.



I agree, however my wife has experience with the PS, typically when their place of work is shifted by a given amount (the details I don't have right now) they try to find them a similar position in the area, cost move them, or if the person is unwilling to move and can't be provided with a similar job, they have to payout severance.


----------



## Remius

Yes, though it's the place of employement to the new place of employment.  This move is still in the NCR.  The geographical location and its limits remain the same for place of employ.  Therefore no one will be getting any sort of arrangement like that.


----------



## McG

I know an individual who moved to Orleans to work at Shirley's Bay.  He was quite happy with the commute; once he passed the Metcalf exit it was wide open highway, and he insists the remainder of the trip took less time than if he had followed traffic into parking downtown.  I have never done either commute, so I cannot comment on the accuracy of his travel assessment.  But, his example does raise the possibility that Orleans commuters may not be as emotionally put-out by this change as some predict.

In the bigger picture, this move is a necessary and healthy step for DND and the military.  It is only too bad that we are not taking consolidation all the way.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Crantor said:
			
		

> Yes, though it's the place of employement to the new place of employment.  This move is still in the NCR.  The geographical location and its limits remain the same for place of employ.  Therefore no one will be getting any sort of arrangement like that.



I wouldn't be so sure, Kingston Pen guards were getting cost moves if they were transferred to institutions that were a certain distance away from their home. I keep thinking it was 40 km but I can't remember for sure.

These institutions were all within the geographic Kingston area, but as long as they bought within the radius of KP and their house wasn't in the radius of the new place of work, they were getting a cost move. 

The same rules apply to all public servants.


----------



## Occam

The commute from Orleans to Kanata isn't particularly painful if you start your work day at 0700.  If you're shooting for a 0800 start, you're going to catch all the traffic and be a miserable SOB.

I worked at both 101 and Tunneys after being posted to Ottawa, and took OC Transpo the whole time.  Many of the same faces that were on the bus when I boarded in Orleans, or boarded after me, I watched walk into 101/Tunneys with me.  In fact, Tunneys is the last stop on many of the current westbound express routes.  I'd be curious to see a survey of where DND/CF employees reside.

I believe the clause from the NJC Relocation Directive you're looking for is:  "Normally, relocation shall only be authorized when the employee's new principal residence is at least 40 km (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new place of work than his/her previous residence, in accordance with subsection 248(1) of the Income Tax Act".  

There won't be anyone in Orleans meeting that criteria.


----------



## Remius

And those that might qualify will likely not want to move to Kanata anyway.  it is likely easier to just find a job somewhere else in the PS.


----------



## dapaterson

The NJC relocation directive does not provide a blanket relocation for a change of workplace.  Given that the workplace of most in Ottawa is the National Capital Region, there should be no moves - since the workplace area isn't changing, just the specific building.


NJC relocation directive: http://njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/nrd-drc/index-eng.php


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Occam said:
			
		

> I believe the clause from the NJC Relocation Directive you're looking for is:  "Normally, relocation shall only be authorized when the employee's new principal residence is at least 40 km (by the shortest usual public route) closer to the new place of work than his/her previous residence, in accordance with subsection 248(1) of the Income Tax Act".
> 
> There won't be anyone in Orleans meeting that criteria.



Interesting,.......I would have thought the 40 km would be workplace to workplace.  Why should it be the employers dollars funding a move when you picked your residence?  I know the Ontario Govt has always been workplace to workplace, and it used to be 40km, but now it's 125.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The NJC relocation directive does not provide a blanket relocation for a change of workplace.  Given that the workplace of most in Ottawa is the National Capital Region, there should be no moves - since the workplace area isn't changing, just the specific building.
> 
> 
> NJC relocation directive: http://njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/nrd-drc/index-eng.php



Regardless a large change in the location of work can be considered constructive dismissal in many circumstances. This would trigger a potentially large entitlement in involuntary severance (not to be confused with the voluntary severance we all had paid out). 

Whether changing from areas in Ottawa out to Kanata would be be enough to be considered constructive dismissal is something that neither you or I would be able to determine, that would be for a long and expensive arbitration process (possibly followed by a long and expensive employment lawsuit) to determine. 

That's why the PS would likely come out with a plan to relocate people that are within a certain criteria. Making a blanket "no one is getting moved, you start Monday in Kanata" statement is how the government gets ground down into lengthy labour disputes.

Hence this is why many Corrections guards got moved under a cost move, even though their new prision was within the same geographic Kingston area that KP was.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

RADOPSIGOPACCISOP said:
			
		

> Hence this is why many Corrections guards got moved under a cost move, even though their new prision was within the same geographic Kingston area that KP was.



So is this FACT or something you heard?  I did a quick google and all I could come up with was 6 got paid to head up to Beaver Creek near Bracebridge.


----------



## Occam

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The NJC relocation directive does not provide a blanket relocation for a change of workplace.  Given that the workplace of most in Ottawa is the National Capital Region, there should be no moves - since the workplace area isn't changing, just the specific building.



Blanket, no.  But the provisions of Employee-requested Relocations would apply, wouldn't it?  http://njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/index.php?sid=115&hl=1&lang=eng Edit:  Disregard, I got my wires crossed.  I was thinking if someone changed positions or something like that - they'd be able to request a relocation if they beat the 40 km rule.

Workplace is more specific than just the NCR - it should be the actual work site.  Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to claim TD if my work site changes temporarily at the employer's request, and I incur extra travel expense because of it.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> So is this FACT or something you heard?  I did a quick google and all I could come up with was 6 got paid to head up to Beaver Creek near Bracebridge.



It's fact, people I know are involved with the DRAP reductions there.


----------



## Remius

@RADO13-Well, given that a lot of sub-units have been advised that they will be consolidated, ie some already have been to LSTL for example and that we have yet to see any messages or direction on any employee relocation plans I doubt that this will be the case.  Unlike many of the pay and benefits types that are being relocated to NB.  They've been advised, and have been given reasonable offers of employment with cost moves.  I don't think they can get severance by refusing a reasonable offer.  Same would apply here.  

NCR has decent public transit, the 40Km limit covers most of the city.  It isn't going to be a massive employee relocation move that you are portraying.  There may be a few but a low low few.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

No, there probably won't be a massive relocation program, but a few will be moved, and in my opinion, should be moved.


----------



## Remius

And keep in mind as well that many PS employees are married to other PS employees or CF members.  Thoses spouses may not want to relocate because their place of employment is more convieniant.  Kids have school, community ties etc etc.   

Those that are indeed entitled to cost moves will certainly have that option.  But it will likely be just a handful.  I don't disagree with your opinion that they should be provided provided for within teh boundaries of the rules.


----------



## PuckChaser

An update to the plan, pers start moving to former Nortel Campus this November:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/department-of-national-defences-new-1-billion-facility-falls-short-on-security/article31685234/



> Department of National Defence’s new $1-billion facility falls short on security
> 
> Robert Fife - OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF
> 
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Published Friday, Sep. 02, 2016 6:00AM EDT
> 
> Last updated Friday, Sep. 02, 2016 6:02AM EDT
> 
> The new $1-billion headquarters of the Department of National Defence is not secure enough to house top secret intelligence work and sensitive military operations because the facility at the old Nortel campus does not meet the exacting security standards of Canada’s international intelligence allies.
> 
> After years of delay, the first wave of 3,400 military and civilian employees will begin the move into the 10-building complex in an Ottawa suburb in November. DND will eventually transfer 8,500 employees to the 148-hectare site by 2020.
> 
> Despite extensive work on the complex, including clearing it of listening devices planted by corporate spies in its Nortel days, the new headquarters falls short of the rigorous security requirements of Canada’s Five Eyes intelligence partners: the United States, Britain, Australia and New Zealand.
> 
> “The bottom line is that we made a decision that we are not going to spend the money to replicate the physical infrastructure and the information systems and all the other technologies that are required to support intelligence and operations,” Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, the vice-chief of the defence staff in charge of overseeing the relocation, told The Globe and Mail.
> 
> For that reason, ultrasecret military intelligence operations, as well as Canadian Special Operations Forces and Canadian Joint Operations Command, which oversees military operations in Iraq, will stay in their current locations.



Absolutely blows my mind that we can move 8,500 employees, none of whom will be related to operational commands or have any link to classified intelligence systems. That's 50% of the total purview of CFSU(Ottawa), which is 17,000 employees (6k Reg, 2k PRes, 9k civvies). I have a feeling those who don't want to move will start inventing a need for CSNI/secure facilities so they don't have to.


----------



## dapaterson

CSNI will be present at the new location; it is other systems (both physical and electronic) that would be cost-prohibitive to relocate.


----------



## PuckChaser

It was an example; the specific system is not the point.


----------



## beachdown

So, is this the new NDHQ then and what happens to the Col By bldg. after?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/dnd-moving-to-nortel-campus-economic-impact-1.3928130


----------



## Lightguns

beachdown said:
			
		

> So, is this the new NDHQ then and what happens to the Col By bldg. after?
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/dnd-moving-to-nortel-campus-economic-impact-1.3928130



Don't worry the Liberals will fill it.........


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I believe the leased builidings will be moving there....


----------



## Pusser

Not all of DND is moving to Carling.  The Louis St Laurent Building (the one that didn't burn) and 101 Colonel By will continue to be used.

I think some of the folks expecting big increases in sales are going to be sorely disappointed.  Although some of the bigger stores in the area (e.g. grocery, department and specialty stores) will benefit from increased traffic.  Convenience stores, fast food places and that vegan yoga studio likely won't.   Carling will have a full-service food court, a convenience store and a fully equipped gym.


----------



## beachdown

You left out the LCBO and the Beer store  :rofl: Took a drive down to Picton over the weekend, and the LCBO building there has to be one of the fanciest in Ontario for a town of only 4,000 people. I guess with nothing else to do in small towns, drinking becomes the past time for many



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> Not all of DND is moving to Carling.  The Louis St Laurent Building (the one that didn't burn) and 101 Colonel By will continue to be used.
> 
> I think some of the folks expecting big increases in sales are going to be sorely disappointed.  Although some of the bigger stores in the area (e.g. grocery, department and specialty stores) will benefit from increased traffic.  Convenience stores, fast food places and that vegan yoga studio likely won't.   Carling will have a full-service food court, a convenience store and a fully equipped gym.


----------



## caocao

First day at the Campus today with a few briefing/tour.  Resuming normal operation on Monday, we'll see how that goes...


----------

