# Cadets or Reserves?



## roger_vetero (25 Feb 2010)

I have my application in to RMC and I'm waiting for a response.

I am currently the RSM of a cadet corps and a buddy of mine eventually wants to apply to RMC also.

He is planning on quitting cadets to join a reservist unit (he can't do both) because he thinks this will give him a better chance at getting into RMC. I think that he should stay with cadets rather than joining the reservist unit because he has the potential to be a good cadet RSM and this gives him a better chance at getting into RMC.

Am I right?


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## Brasidas (25 Feb 2010)

roger_vetero said:
			
		

> He is planning on quitting cadets to join a reservist unit (he can't do both) because he thinks this will give him a better chance at getting into RMC. I think that he should stay with cadets rather than joining the reservist unit because he has the potential to be a good cadet RSM and this gives him a better chance at getting into RMC.
> 
> Am I right?



I am not a recruiter, nor someone particularly familiar with ROTP. I left cadets for the reserves when I finished high school myself.

I am curious why you think participation as an experienced member of a youth organization would be of more value for such an application than actual military service.


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## Jourdan (25 Feb 2010)

Of course military experience of any sort will look good on the RMC application, but I think your friend should be more concerned about his marks, extracurriculars, community service and leadership experience. They are not looking for the finished package they want someone with potential. Will being a cadet RSM give him an edge over other candidates without that experience? Maybe... a little... But if his average sucks, if he barely makes the RMC threshold on the CFAT, or if he knows little to nothing about his occupation choices during his interview that little bit of experience as a reservist or RSM won't make a dent. 

To answer your question, I think your friend should join the reserves it would give him a better taste of what the military is actually like. If he does get into RMC, that is when he will have a slight edge over other applicants without military experience. But then again it is subjective to the type of person he is.


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## len173 (25 Feb 2010)

I've seen guys get into RMC without any military related, or cadet experience.

If he's going to do one or the other, I'd tell him to go reserves so he actually has an idea of what being in the military is like, before going to RMC. Cadets won't do that IMO . . .


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## VBanks (25 Feb 2010)

Jayell said:
			
		

> If he's going to do one or the other, I'd tell him to go reserves so he actually has an idea of what being in the military is like, before going to RMC. Cadets won't do that IMO . . .



Not to mention Reservists get paid, which is an awesome bonus


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## the 48th regulator (25 Feb 2010)

CadetRac said:
			
		

> Auctually i disagree, i think that the leadership that you gain in cadets is more important than the military experince that you get in the reserves, cause im pretty sure they look at leadership over military experince. Now yes theres drawbacks, you have to be in cadets for at least 3 years to take up any leadership spot, but if your not in a rush i think its more worth while. and also you CAN do both with Military CO-OP in high school.




Teehee,

That was cute.  Lemme show you something.  Look to your left.  See that line.  Look to your right, see the other.  This is called a lane.  You are in the wrong one.

Until you grow up, and experience life as a soldier, please refrain on commenting on what leadership is superior.  That of an inflated kids club, or a Military reserve unit.  

Let me know how many "Cadets' Have died or have been wounded, during their service.

dileas

tess


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## armchair_throwaway (25 Feb 2010)

This may also depend on your friend's age. First he'll have to go through the application process, which can be anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. Before he can fully participate on parade nights and weekend exercises, he'll have to first complete BMQ. By this time it may already be time to enter RMC, so at best that was about half a year of military experience as NCM before heading off to train as OCdt.

To me, gaining leadership experience in cadet (or any youth group for that matter) would probably be better time spent than learning how to unload and hose down the LSVW.

On a different note, I was just reading this book talking about my generation (Y) who are constantly asking "How can this company/job/organization beef up my resume?" and are also quite nomadic, with no sense of loyalty. I'm not saying this is your friend, of course, but let's think about contribution for a moment. If your friend is almost ready to be a cadet RSM, that means he's been with the unit for quite some time, maybe even did a scholarship camp or two, it would make sense to give back his knowledge, gained through his cadet career, and be a role model for young cadets. Now, if instead he went and join the reserve, do you think it's fair to the new unit? The function of reserves is not to provide training just to make a person look good on paper.


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## FDO (26 Feb 2010)

Something no one looked at. If join the Reserve and want to go to RMC under ROTP you will have to do a CT. If you put in for a CT they are taking up to 18 months to process. If you apply ROTP "off the street" the Recruiting Centre does ALL your processing. If you CT its left up to your Regiment and DMCA. Stay with Cadets. Enjoy your last year or two as a Cadet. You earned it.


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## aesop081 (26 Feb 2010)

:

This tread has gone "full retard"


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## Niteshade (26 Feb 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> :
> 
> This tread has gone "full retard"


Inapropriate, In my humble opinion. Clearly CadetRac is misinformed and needs to be brought up to speed.


CadetRac, having been a cadet myself for some 5 years, (and enjoyed every moment of it), the experience gained in cadets is not a comparison to reserve or regular force service. I will explain why.

Certainly, you do gain experience "leading" others, however you have to examine that you are merely leading other youth, in simple tasks for a short period of time, once a week. I can state from my experience that the only transferable skills from cadets to the canadian forces is drill and rank recognition. Outside of that, no other skill from Cadets transferred for me.I was a flight seargant when I left cadets, so I "lead" a fairly large group of cadets, even this only gets you so far.

As for reserve/reg force experience, 2 years as a private will give him a wealth of experience. How to write proper memo's, how to obtain/exchange kit, proper usage of the chain of command, and many many many other simple tasks that can only be learned from trial and error. Cadets does not teach you these things. I have heard people say the best officers are those who were once NCM's.

roger_vetero , An experience such as 2 years in Cadets (even in the lofty position of RSM) is not even close to the experience gained in the Reserves/Reg force. That being said, I do believe that you friend should go with the program that allows him the ability to dedicate his time to studies. Better grades and more knowledge in his brain will only ensure his future overall academic success in RMC, or any other university for that matter.

That is my opinion on this matter.

Nites

PS: Judging Cadets against reg/reserve service is a touchy subject. The simple fact is that it does not even come close to "living the dream".


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## 1feral1 (26 Feb 2010)

CadetRac said:
			
		

> ... i think that the leadership that you gain in cadets is more important than the military experince that you get in the reserves...



Cadets is for kids, yes its a Defence sponsored youth organisation, which I fully support entirely, as there is many benifits for those involved at all levels.

However, for you to say a youth's/child's leadership has more revellance than than in the Reserves, you are out of touch with reality.  Conducting a leadership tasking in a cadet drill lesson in an armoury is 100% different from  leadership say for example of fire and movement with live ammo on an exercise.

I'd like to see you argue your point with a Reserve MCPL section commander fresh from Afghanistan.

I do hope you have the maturity to see things outside your box.

Regards from a tropical rainy summer's day,

OWDU

EDITed only for spelling


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## FDO (26 Feb 2010)

In my job as a Recruiter I have seen Pte with 2 years in have no more leadership than what they came in with off the street. A Cadet with 5 years has a wealth of leadership experience. Is it strict military? Of course not but Officer leadership comes from BMOQ. You need to have a base on which to build. Given my choice of a a Cadet CSM/Cox'n over an 18 year old who has only played "War Craft" and been to a Reserve unit once a week, I'll take the CSM/Cox'n any day!


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## aesop081 (26 Feb 2010)

FDO said:
			
		

> Given my choice of a a Cadet CSM/Cox'n over an 18 year old who has only played "War Craft" and been to a Reserve unit once a week, I'll take the CSM/Cox'n any day!



...and i will take the gamer because it usualy means i dont have a bag full of bad habits to undo and alot less attitude.

I much prefer to hear "i have never been in charge before" than "Back when i was RSM of cadets we did it this way "


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## 1feral1 (26 Feb 2010)

FDO said:
			
		

> Given my choice of a a Cadet CSM/Cox'n over an 18 year old who has only played "War Craft" and been to a Reserve unit once a week, I'll take the CSM/Cox'n any day!



Once a week eh, I think thats an exception to the rule, and off the mark from your average dedicated Militia dude with 2yrs up his sleeve. I find your comment quite a shortcoming and almost offensive. Seems you are forgetting recruit trg and trade trg, which can chew up a summer in many cases, and many Militia pers are employed from late Jun- late Aug. Thats far beyond once a week.

There is more to a pde night a week and a wknd a month. This is coming from a former Militia guy, and Regular, I've been on both sides of the fence. IMHO at 3 yrs to make CPL, l had more responsibilites than a 16 yr old C/CSM, who thinks he is the lord of leadership.

I view your pers quote as kind of hypocritical "A Veteran-whether active duty, retired or Reserve- is someone who at one point in their life, wrote a blank cheque made payable to "The Country of Canada" for an amount of "up to and including my life" 

I once had a militia hater reg who told me that a militia guy could get a CD with 144 days svc at 1 day/mo, 12 days a yr for 12 yrs, while he had to wait the 12/365 route. What crap!

Don't sell a reservist short.

Regards,

OWDU


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## aesop081 (26 Feb 2010)

CadetRac said:
			
		

> if you want to enroll as a NCO.



No one enrolls as an NCO.


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## 1feral1 (26 Feb 2010)

CadetRac said:
			
		

> Auctually (actually), i (I), i (I), experince (experience), cause (because), im (I am or I'm), experince (experience), theres (there is), your (you are or you're) , i (I), worth while (worthwhile)



I do hope before you make any personal choices in careers, or as a 'leader' when writing up your next 'leadership lesson plan', you'll attempt some proper punctuation and spelling. The above picked up from just one post. These here are simply pure laziness IMHO, and spelling/grammar show weakness again IMHO. As a former DS in two different armies, and a veteran, your words demonstrate a tad of cadet know-it-all arrogance.

I would suggest you take to heart the advice given to you by a moderator to to stay in your lane. Just be a 16 yr old and be happy.

Regards,

OWDU


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## 1feral1 (26 Feb 2010)

CadetRac said:
			
		

> Lol yeah dont worry i do use spell check when counts



Lol, (MSN speak), dont (don't), i (I)........

I don't think its nothing to laugh about, and I would have failed you if yo submitted garbage like that.

Using MSN speak etc is in violation of the guidelines on this site, but as a leader, I thought you would have checked the rules/regs that govern this site.

If you wanted to prove a point, one would think you would present yourself as professional as possible so someone would take you seriously. This includes your spelling, and punctuation. 

OWDU


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## Niteshade (26 Feb 2010)

CadetRac said:
			
		

> Ok, having 2 years of reserves is much better than any number of cadet years, if you want to enroll as a NCO.
> (Edit: sorry i mean a NCM  ;D)
> 
> But when joing RMC (where they look at leadership more than they look at military experince) beign a cadet CWO, where you have gone on an exchange, para, done staff seems a heck of a lot better than a Private in the reserves who has MAYBE done BMQ. and im not comparing a MCPL to a C/CWO, because i am assuming that this guy is planning to join right after grade 12 which doesnt give him enough time to become a MCPL, and PTE's dont get any leadership experince..
> ...



I think the information you are rendering here is not exactly accurate. In even one year, A Pte in a reserve unit can become a QL3 trained private. In two years they MAY even make corporal. I know of 6 people who are QL3 trained Sigs in under two years of reserve training, and of those 6 I know of 2 whom are trained in under one year.

Here is food for thought: Let me know when the cadet has Haiti/Afghanistan/etc. tour under his belt, and can put THAT on his RMC application.

I also question your sources of persons who tell you that cadets is better for an RMC application that Canadian Forces Service. 

The best advice for this comes from a recruiter. I think that sums it up.

Nites


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## dangerboy (26 Feb 2010)

CadetRac said:
			
		

> and PTE's dont get any leadership experince..



Just want to point out a lot of times due to man power shortages, Ptes are placed in Leadership positions.  Maybe not as Sect Comds but it is not uncommon to see Cpls as Sect Comds and Ptes as 2IC.  I am not getting involved in the whole what is better for RMC Cadet or reserve position as I don't work in recruiting and have no idea what they look for and how they select people.  I am just defending the Pte, there are several Ptes out there in leadership positions doing a good job (Reg and Reserve).


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## the 48th regulator (26 Feb 2010)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Just want to point out a lot of times due to man power shortages, Ptes are placed in Leadership positions.  Maybe not as Sect Comds but it is not uncommon to see Cpls as Sect Comds and Ptes as 2IC.  I am not getting involved in the whole what is better for RMC Cadet or reserve position as I don't work in recruiting and have no idea what they look for and how they select people.  I am just defending the Pte, there are several Ptes out there in leadership positions doing a good job (Reg and Reserve).




Dangerboy,

Also remind them as Privates,  we had two secondary trades and were put on a leadership course.

I was actually promoted, and celebrated my second year in the military, while on my Leadership course.  All the while still in highschool and not old enough to by a round at the end of the courses and promotions.

btw, never spent a day in the Cadets....

dileas

tess


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## dangerboy (26 Feb 2010)

That is right, you still owe a round.  :cheers: But in all seriousness, it is very common to see Ptes on leadership courses these days.


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## the 48th regulator (26 Feb 2010)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> That is right, you still owe a round.  :cheers: But in all seriousness, it is very common to see Ptes on leadership courses these days.




hehehe,

Nice try Jingles....


So, it is safe to say, at 17 you can join the reserves.  This while in high school, where you are concentrating to get the grades to go to RMC.

So you can be among adults, learn what it is like to be a Soldier, rather than playing with children pretending to be the one who holds the conch on a remote island....

But then, what the hell do I know.  Let us listen to CadetRac, who "Believes" as opposed to those of us that know...

dileas

tess


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## stealthylizard (26 Feb 2010)

Leadership potential is also a part of the PDR, even for no-hook privates.  I was the RSM of my cadet unit at the rank of WO after 4 years.  I have been in the reserves, and I had also applied for RMC about 15 years ago.  Now I am in the Regs as an NCM.  You really want to know what they look for in an officer applicant, especially for RMC?  A genius with a healthy and busy extracurricular life.  I went through school with someone that had a 98% average throughout high school, and still didn't get accepted into RMC because he spent all his time studying and doing nothing else.  As said before, cadets will help with drill (although some things are different, especially regimental drill), some leadership and rank recognition, even somewhat with CoC usage, but the reserves helps with so much more that is actually important, like section attacks, weapons handling, operational experience, dealing with the vast loads of redundant paperwork, networking, etc etc.  The list can go on forever.

I would agree that going into RMC from the civie/cadet side would be faster or easier than the reserve side, based simply on the CT process.


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## ScotiaShooter (27 Feb 2010)

(My apologies for the wall of text I did my best to shorten it but it didn't really work )

While you or your friend are thinking about cadets or the reserves to strengthen your application to the Royal Military College why not also look into some volunteer work in your neighborhood at the same time? I know of one person from my area who was accepted to RMC who was an air cadet but he also played sports and volunteered at places like soup kitchens and held down a part time job all while keeping up his grades.

Now I am not a recruiter or RMC student or even a Military member so I know I am outside my lane with this and possibly mistaken but it would seem that he was probably accepted into the CF for a lot more then just his being a member of cadets.

And I'm not attempting to talk down on cadets I was a cadet I feel it is a fantastic youth program and can provide a great summer job but I feel you should look at the bigger picture rather then focusing purely on whether reserve service or cadets will help you get into RMC

Regardless of whatever community you live in I guarantee you there are lots of options out there for volunteer work If your old enough why not look into volunteer firefighting? most depts that run what is called a junior training program usually recruit at I think sixteen. You can gain medical and rescue experience and practice teamwork. Another benefit of firefighting experience is with all the ball busting and jokes that happen around the station I promise you will develop a very thick skin.

Quite a few communities run ground search and rescue teams I am not aware of any real age limit to join but I might be mistaken as it could depend on your province. In GSAR you can again gain medical experience you can learn map and compass and learn to work in a team you will also gain leadership experience if for example you are called on to lead search parties and most importantly you get to help people.

And you don't even need to do the super sexy rescue work and wear the cool jumpsuits to help people go to your local food bank or legion see if they have any small jobs you could do to help out you obviously wont be able to do any bar work due to age but I'm sure you can find someway to help out

All of this is stuff that can go on a resume or in your case a school application plus it builds character and lets you give back to the community. And you can still join the reserves or be a cadet while doing this you just need to learn to balance a schedule. And most importantly remember if your in grade 12 hoping to go to a university of some sort don't forget to focus on your school work I learned that lesson the hard way so please don't make the same mistakes as me.

My apologies for the wall of text hopefully my message is clear though I'm sure it isn't

Cheers
SS

P.S. To the staff if you feel I am either mistaken or I have stepped too far outside of my lane please accept my apologies


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## Towards_the_gap (27 Feb 2010)

You should heed the advice of numerous other posters on this thread and wind your neck in. 



			
				CadetRac said:
			
		

> But when joing RMC (where they look at leadership more than they look at military experince) beign a cadet CWO, where you have gone on an exchange, para, done staff seems a heck of a lot better than a Private in the reserves who has MAYBE done BMQ. and im not comparing a MCPL to a C/CWO, because i am assuming that this guy is planning to join right after grade 12 which doesnt give him enough time to become a MCPL, and PTE's dont get any leadership experince..



Pte's do get leadership experience. In some cases, OPERATIONAL leadership experience. Exchange, para, staff etc are all just little sweeteners for cadets to keep them in, it's really of no use as a real soldier. It is the military version of boy scouts, nothing more, and do not kid yourself further in this. I would rather, to be honest, have someone off the street to train than a cadet, simply for the fact that you have a blank slate, with no bad habits or misconceptions.

Also, in the reserves, your friend is more likely to gain a bit more life experience, ie sports, socialising, employment, AS AN ADULT surrounded by ADULTS, than staying as a cadet.


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## armchair_throwaway (27 Feb 2010)

If a person is clueless enough to say "Well in cadet we did drill this way", he probably would be the same type who would say "Well in the reserves we did our section attacks like this". No one at RMC would be impressed either way. Some of you seems to think just joining reserves would make one more mature and more adult-like. I'm sure there were a few who got a life-changing experience after 2 months of BMQ/SQ, then there were those shit-pumps who remained shit-pumps but still safely graduated. 

Don't take me wrong, I absolutely agree with everyone that cadet experiences in no way equals military, but some of the example important lessons mentioned are pretty weak: how to exchange kit, write memo, play sports and socialize with adults? You can easily learn these as a civilian, it's called common sense and having a part-time job.

If the OP and his friend were in boy scout or Jr firefighter/police/etc., most of you probably wouldn't tell them to quit that and join a year of reserve for "real-life experience" to prep for RMC. Just the mere mention of cadets seems to invalidate the things they gain from it. Not all cadets are snobs, but certainly this site attracts a lot of them, as I'm sure sites like Blueline may attract a certain type.


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## 1feral1 (27 Feb 2010)

lucia_engel said:
			
		

> "Well in the reserves we did our section attacks like this".



I thought doctrine (such as fire and movement) was Army wide with no difference in tactics between full time and part time components.

OWDU

EDITed for spelling and to add, you'll find AH's and DH's in every nieche of military society including militia, cadets and the regs.


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## stealthylizard (27 Feb 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> I thought doctrine (such as fire and movement) was Army wide with no difference in tactics between full time and part time components.
> 
> OWDU
> 
> EDITed for spelling and to add, you'll find AH's and DH's in every niche of military society including militia, cadets and the regs.



For the most part I agree, but learning section attacks in BMQ, and BIQ, there were vast differences.  The one thing that was constant ws fire and move, but they didnt get into flanking, aussie peelbacks, weapon dets, etc  in BMQ.  I don't know if trades other than infantry go into much detail for section attacks other than the common "up, he sees me, down", and "one foot remains on the ground and covers, while the other one moves."

Sorry had to correct "niche".


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## 1feral1 (27 Feb 2010)

One would think all tactics would be covered under one CFP to avoid confusion.

I would tend to base my sumations at the core, from an Infantry course for that trade, the ole 031, not necessarily at an all arms/corps recruit level, but one would think there would be some consistancy, as if not its a bad practice.

Yes, this confuses me. Here things are under one MLW (Manual of Land Warefare), and doctrine (Infantry) for example, is based out of one cell at the SOI (School of Infantry) at Singleton, NSW who write doctrine.

As for the Aussie peelback, well after 17 days shy of 15 yrs svc here, its non existant, at least by that name. Here a peelback means one is uncircumcised, ha!

Cheers,

OWDU


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## armchair_throwaway (27 Feb 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> I thought doctrine (such as fire and movement) was Army wide with no difference in tactics between full time and part time components.



At my SQ, the reg force Sgt (who subbed for a few classes) often corrected the moves that the Res instructor had taught us. So we just shut our mouths and learn both ways


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## c4th (27 Feb 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> One would think all tactics would be covered under one CFP to avoid confusion.



B-GL-309-003/FT-001  The Infantry Section and Platoon in Battle

http://armyapp.dnd.ca/ael/pubs/B-GL-309-003-FT-001E.pdf

Page 2-16 has everything you need to know.


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## 1feral1 (27 Feb 2010)

lucia_engel said:
			
		

> At my SQ, the reg force Sgt (who subbed for a few classes) often corrected the moves that the Res instructor had taught us. So we just shut our mouths and learn both ways



So, by the sounds of it, there is only one way, and the militia instructor, threw his own two cents in when he should have stuck to the basic references that are listed in TNO's post.

Regards,

OWDU


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## mariomike (27 Feb 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> As for the Aussie peelback, well after 17 days shy of 15 yrs svc here, its non existant, at least by that name. Here a peelback means one is uncircumcised, ha!



Congratualtions, Wes. That and your CF service is a real milestone. 

"Peelback"?! I never heard that one!  ;D
I think the more medical term is to "deglove: to force off or peel back skin from a part of the body, especially a limb or appendage, as if removing a glove, sleeve, or mask."


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## Niteshade (27 Feb 2010)

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDjEYKNMu9o

Nites


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## armchair_throwaway (27 Feb 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> So, by the sounds of it, there is only one way, and the militia instructor, threw his own two cents in when he should have stuck to the basic references that are listed in TNO's post.



Actually, the instructor was going by the pam (I think that's the right word...I assume it's the official lesson reference book) but the Sgt was going by the drill he actually used in real-life combat. Of course, when we were finally tested, we had to "unlearn" it again. There were more than one discrepancies, but we were told not to worry. When it comes time for deployment and work-up training, we'd be taught what we need to know.

Anyway, to be back on topic, know-it-alls are everywhere, whether in cadet or reserves. The fact that cadet knowledge may not be useful or that reservist may not be taught all the tricks of the trade shouldn't impact anything. If the friend stays in cadet, he gets to learn a bit about leadership and work along with the CIC officers in managing a group of youth. If he joins reserves, he learns how to be a soldier. But FDO already pointed out the lengthy CT process, which ended the purpose of this thread.


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## Northalbertan (27 Feb 2010)

Cadets are not soldiers.  A cadet may learn a few "military " things like drill, but are not taught section tactics or anything else you need to know to be a soldier.   I would think reserve experience would count for more.  One is a youth organization the other is military, and a job.  :2c:


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