# Considering filing with the Ombudsman



## Cpl4Life (15 Oct 2004)

Heres my scenario:

I've been in the reserves for 12 years (infantry then airfield engineers).   NOT that this is a big deal, but I do have a QL2 bypass as a result of having a lot of class B time.

I am QL5 qualified as well as journeyman in the civy world in the same MOC I am attempting a component transfer.   In other words, the MOC I'm applying reg. force is the same MOC I am in the reserves.

Early 2001 I started the process, and I am still waiting.

The trade I'm currently applying for is distressed, and has been since April of this year.

I passed my medical and PT with flying colours (off the scale).

I recently completed additional training related to my trade, so the CF wants a copy of my grades (even though I'm already QL5).   I submitted an unoffical copy the day my course was done, but I have a feeling they are going to make me wait until the official copy comes in (which will be in about three months).

I have been selected by the selection committee, according to CFRC

I debate about accepting an offer that comes in the new year as I don't want the 25 year pension that comes in to effect Jan 1/05.

I am sick and tired of waiting, I feel like the system has me by my balls.   I want to complain, but I'm also afraid how the system will look at me if I have a complaint filed.   I don't think anyone can say I haven't been patient.

What do you think I should do?   Do you think its unreasonable for me to place a complaint with the Ombudsman?


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## Griswald DME (16 Oct 2004)

Cpl4Life said:
			
		

> II am sick and tired of waiting, I feel like the system has me by my balls.   I want to complain, but I'm also afraid how the system will look at me if I have a complaint filed.   I don't think anyone can say I haven't been patient.



Look, its crappy you've been waiting so long.   But if you file a complaint while you are trying to transfer chances are it will be delayed even longer.   Do you think the recruiting staff are going to look at your file, see you've complained about them and think "oh, I guess we better get our asses in gear and get this dude in asap"??   No way man, they will delay and delay your file even longer.   People are people and anyone who hears you've complained about them will be pissed off, plain and simple.

So don't do it man, at least wait until you are in to complain.   At least thats my opinion, what do others think about it?


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## Cloud Cover (16 Oct 2004)

Cpl4Life said:
			
		

> The trade I'm currently applying for is distressed, and has been since April of this year.
> 
> I have been selected by the selection committee, according to CFRC
> 
> I debate about accepting an offer that comes in the new year as I don't want the 25 year pension that comes in to effect Jan 1/05.



You just answered your own question. The trade is distressed because the trained pers have left after twenty years in for a better job, coupled with an uptick in need for the skills within the forces and civvie street. [Competetive market pressures and the line of argument that goes with it. search the forums, the subject is here somewhere.] The whole purpose of the 25 year pension is to prevent this from happening with new members in skilled trades with transferable skills, especially technical jobs like ED tech etc. 

What I see coming down the road is this: someone is going to argue sucsessfully that systemic delay was caculated to defer offers until post January 1st into the new pension system. Next, the will be a finding followed by a ruling [a board, tribunal or court] that pensionable time will commence from the date of application. So, don't ruffle feathers just yet, but apply constant and respectful pressure for an answer. 

Good luck!!


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## Shaynelle (16 Oct 2004)

Good points Whiskey and Griswald.  I also think this guy shouldn't file a complaint, at least until after he gets in.  And the part about arguing the pension should be from date of application, maybe he will be the first to argue this, if he's waited as long as he says he has.

One concern I have is skilled trades is that often you can make 20, up to 50K or more (depends on the overtime involved) in the civilian world - so why the heck would they stay with the CF for less money?  My cousin is an electrician (union mind you so they make more $$) and he makes a six figure income.  He laughs at what the CF offers electricians.  So why are skilled guys interested in joining when its less $ and you get deployed, moved around the country, etc.?  (Sorry not to sound so cynical, but I am curious).


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## 48Highlander (16 Oct 2004)

same reason anyone joins the army.  'cos we're too dumb to know better


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## jonsey (16 Oct 2004)

What civilian electrician gets to use a C7?>  Besides, the uniform looks better than what I've seen civilian electricians wear.  

For those who join the CF, it's usually because they find something more important than the money made, because most soldiers/airmen/sailors don't make as much as they would  in the civilian world. They want something else, whether it's serving their country, proving something to themselves, family tradition, wanting to see the world, etc. Whatever it is, it's something that those who say "Why serve when you can make $XXX more in the civilian world" will likely never understand.


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## Veterans son (16 Oct 2004)

Jonesy, that was a great message you posted!


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## Shaynelle (16 Oct 2004)

whiskey 601 said:
			
		

> The trade is distressed because the trained pers have left after twenty years in for a better job, coupled with an uptick in need for the skills within the forces and civvie street. [Competetive market pressures and the line of argument that goes with it. search the forums, the subject is here somewhere.] The whole purpose of the 25 year pension is to prevent this from happening with new members in skilled trades with transferable skills, especially technical jobs like ED tech etc.



Its sad then if the trade is distressed and this fella wants in so bad (obviously its not for the money if he has his papers in the civilian world) and the system is making him wait so long.  I hope they aren't making people wait so they are forced to accept the 25 year pension thing.


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## Cpl4Life (2 Nov 2004)

My girlfriend and I discussed things over the weekend.  We decided if I don't hear anything by this coming holiday season I'm withdrawing my application and accept a contract overseas which pays a heck of a lot more money anyways.  It will only be bittersweet because I really did want to serve.


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## rounder (2 Nov 2004)

> I don't want the 25 year pension that comes in to effect Jan 1/05.




I have a CT in right now, what is this 25 year pension about?


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## Cpl4Life (4 Nov 2004)

Right now you only need 20 yrs in to pull a pension.  As of Jan 1, 2005 you will need a minimum of 25 years.  If you need more info its probably on the DND site somewhere, not sure if it would be under Recruiting.  A CANFORGEN came out but its filed away in my basement right now or I would get you a bit more information.


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## Cpl4Life (4 Nov 2004)

I should have mentioned your Reserve time doesn't count towards your 25 yrs.  It can get you additional $ from your pension for the Reserve time, but you still do the min. 25 yrs.  So if you're CT'ing get on your file and make sure you get in asap, especially if your over 30 because the time in plus age can't be more than 60. (unless theres an extension approved, but I'm not sure if thats common maybe someone else can comment on that).


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## HollywoodHitman (22 Nov 2004)

I'd wait until you're in your spot before you register a complaint. However if you don't register it, it will be one less black mark for the ombudsman to refer to when chasing the higher ups for accountability. 

Too many qualified, good people get discouraged and move on to different things or even different militaries.

Good luck.

TM


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## koach (22 Nov 2004)

Cpl4Life,



> I should have mentioned your Reserve time doesn't count towards your 25 yrs.  It can get you additional $ from your pension for the Reserve time, but you still do the min. 25 yrs.



This will probably be incorrect.  Right now Class A,B, and C time does count and it is expected to be in effect under the new Terms of Service policy.  There has been very little information on the new TOS outside of the CANFORGEN and there are alot of questions that have not been answered.

Regarding your actual application.  Because you have military courses and Civilian journeyman experience, the Managing Authority for your trade has to determine what the equivilanies are for your civy knowledge and training and then determine what your next trade course will be.  The last thing the the MA wants to do is send you on a course to teach you things that you already know.  This can take some time but it is to your benefit and the benefit of the CF.  You will get credit for your knowledge and time in the reserves.  I cannot see that changing if they change the TOS policy.

At any point, I cannot see you avoiding the TOS policy anyway.  Your first contract will be for three years and even with 12 Years Class B or C service, that will only bring you to 15 years.  You will still need to go through a re-engagement and then you would be under the new 25 year policy.

None the less, if you honestly feel that the CFRC has not addressed your application properly, file a complaint with the ombudsman.  From what I have seen in the past, in my own experience, it has not affected an applicants chances of joining the CF.


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## Cpl4Life (28 Nov 2004)

Koach said:
			
		

> Cpl4Life,None the less, if you honestly feel that the CFRC has not addressed your application properly, file a complaint with the ombudsman.   From what I have seen in the past, in my own experience, it has not affected an applicants chances of joining the CF.



Thanks for the info Koach.  If it came to filing with the Ombudsman it would be at the point where I'd would be withdrawing my application with the CF, which will be the first business day in the new year.  I just want to give more fuel to the fire - I believe the CF is taking way too long with some applications, especially with mine that has taken three years.  That is absolutely ridiculous by anyones standards.  I'm not accusing members of being lazy, theres always a few lazy people and no-minds, but on the whole I have received excellent service, its more the system that is the problem.  I've been selected, but still waiting for this, then its another thing then another... one can only wait so long.  I believe the CF needs more money and more training for its staff in order to give them the tools they need to do their jobs.  This includes not only operational needs, but administrative as well.


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## Morpheus32 (28 Nov 2004)

If you have no intention of joining the Reg Force, don't waste the Ombudsmans time with a complaint.  They don't have alot of personnel and tying them up with your complaint will only slow others within the CF who have pressing concerns.  The Ombudsman is already looking at the recruiting process already.  As with anything, they have limited resources and have to balance their workload.

As a member of the reserves, ask your chain of command to have a look at your situation.  If no one is willing to help in your chain of command and the recruiting centre tells you to piss off, then engage the Ombudsman.  Chat with your troop leader and get them engaged.  Call the recruiting centre and find out what exactly the hold up is.  There is no conspiracy or anything I would suggest.  Just a heavy workload I would suspect.  There is not magic solution unfortunately.  When I was DCO, I had no problem with someone calling and wanting to know what the status was on their file.  In fact, I found the ones that were the most serious and enthusiastic, were the ones who called regularly and consistantly.  So don't be concerned about calling and finding out in detail what the problem is.  It is their job to answer your questions.

So my advice is to engage your chain of command and call the recruiting centre and get down to what the issue is that is causing the delay.  If after giving them a chance to try to sort it out, and you have an understanding what the delay is, and you are still not happy, then engage the ombudsman at that time.  He is a busy guy.  

Jeff


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## Cpl4Life (28 Nov 2004)

Morpheus32 said:
			
		

> If you have no intention of joining the Reg Force, don't waste the Ombudsmans time with a complaint.   They don't have alot of personnel and tying them up with your complaint will only slow others within the CF who have pressing concerns.   The Ombudsman is already looking at the recruiting process already.   As with anything, they have limited resources and have to balance their workload.



Jeff, I have every intention of joining the Regular Force.   This year.   I don't agree with your advice to not "waste the Ombudsman's time".   There are many qualify people who have dropped out of the application process due to long wait times.   I'm talking a year or more, which is unreasonable in any organization.   I encourage these people to file with the Ombudsman.   As for "slowing others within the CF who have pressing concerns", I don't believe it is your decision on who's complaint is more pressing.   That decision I would assume is for the Ombudsman's office.

Have you read the Ombudsmans reports and media releases?   His office has been actively encouraging persons, including applicants to file with his office if they feel they have been shorted.   That is why the whole process was changed not long ago so applicants as well as current members could file grievances.   

You state the recruiting process is already being looked into - by whom?   The Ombudsman's office has been suggesting changes to the Recruiting office for at least the past six years that I am aware of.   I have read in the previous two Ombudsman's reports recommendations that changes are needed in the recruiting process, so its clear the CF isn't taking the Ombudsman's recommendations too seriously.



			
				Morpheus32 said:
			
		

> There is no conspiracy or anything I would suggest.   Just a heavy workload I would suspect.   There is not magic solution unfortunately.



Conspiracy?   Sorry, but I'm not following you on the conspiracy thing.   As I stated in my message the CF needs more money to give staff the tools they need to do their job.   If   the tool required is more staff to ease the high workload, then so be it.   Members complain about lack of money for operations, and I whole heartedly agree.   However, one must not forget the administrative side, the people who are there to support the operational side of the picture.   They may be in valid need of additional funding as well.



			
				Morpheus32 said:
			
		

> When I was DCO, I had no problem with someone calling and wanting to know what the status was on their file.   In fact, I found the ones that were the most serious and enthusiastic, were the ones who called regularly and consistantly.   So don't be concerned about calling and finding out in detail what the problem is.   It is their job to answer your questions.



I agree, and I am EXTREMELY thankful now I am dealing with a Captain who actually looks into whats happening with my file.   This is much different than the Master Seaman I was dealing with for the past two+ years who fed me the exact reply every time I phoned, for over two years. "Nothing yet, haven't heard anything yet".   I have maintained my enthusiasm for over three years now, and its difficult now its nearing the end of the old pension deadline.   One must draw the line somewhere, and for me I have decided that line is when the pension changes occur, at the start of next year.


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## ab136 (29 Nov 2004)

WOW!! Cpl4life.  Seems like your patients has come to a head.  From your posts I think you might be a civvy electrician.  I seem to be in the same boat as you. It's been about 3 years since I first files(don't want to go into all that again...already posted somewhere). The pension delema does not bother me, maybe it should, I'll be 40 in January.  The way I feel, I love doing electrical work. I have the feeling I will love army life. I really don't think about retiring. When I do get in I'll be there until I have to retire no when I can.  But Hey, I do understand your frustration about the wait.  I think my files were AWOL for a while also.  But what can we do?  
Keep on top of things.  Your dealing with people who are just _*trying*_ to do their job.  Frustrating as it might be. 
Hope things work out for you. Keep us posted


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## Morpheus32 (29 Nov 2004)

Cpl4life,

Firstly you asked for advice on a public board and you got it.  If you don't like the advice, then fine.  I have some experience in the area you are discussing and I thought only to help you out.  Refuting my points of advice and your tone suggest I have wasted my time writing out this post.  It certain sounds like you have this all thought out and since you are encouraging people to lodge complaints I am curious why you are asking for advice on the board?  Or are you venting?  If that is the case, have at it.  I hope you feel better for it.  I certain would be frustrated myself if I was in your situation.  As noted by ab136, the people are just trying to do there job here so keep that in mind. 

My point clearly is that the Ombudsman is a busy person along with his staff.  If you have a concern about yourself that you would like him to look at in detail, that is what he is there to do.  He has been very helpful to people in solving problems for individuals.  If you have concerns about shortages in training and personnel in the CF, the ombudsman is not necessarily the right person for that type of complaint.  As a reservist you should get your chain of command engaged to resolve this issue.  They are your chain of command and I would expect them to take an interest in your situation.  I have been to the Ombudsman's office during a recent trip to Ottawa, and they are being run ragged with all the traffic, many of which they can do little about.

Anyway, it seems you have this all well thought out.  Have a good one.   Please give the Ombudsman my regards. 

Jeff


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## Shaynelle (30 Nov 2004)

Cpl4Life, you may want to contact Recruiting and ask about the pension changes.  I just posted a message about it (sorry I don't know how to link to another message).  I was told it most likely won't go ahead for the start of the new year.


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