# Cornwallis Vs. St Jean



## safeboy43 (28 Mar 2006)

Hey guys,

This question has been eating at me for awhile now. I know some people that have been through Cornwallis in the 80's and they keep saying, "It's not fair. Cornwallis was hell tough and we were living in WW2 barracks. Now in the new building (St. Jean) the basic is too easy." I don't know if what they say is true but it would be nice to have somebody who went through both and make a bit of a comparison.

P.S- My goal is *not* to start a war between the two bases but please feel free to post you're comments!  

Safeboy


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## PiperDown (28 Mar 2006)

I went through Cornwallis (shudder) in 1991.. the instuctors used to beat us on a regular basis.. and I heard that in St Jean.. there are cleaners who come in at night and get the building ready for inspection while the troops are running around camp in civies.. and heading to montreal for the evening..  ;D

 This topic is a can of worms about to be open.. And I am sure, that since the beginning of time.. those who went before you, had it harder... 

 I do find it a little strange when I see a post on the forums from someone currently in basic..  Wow, computer access.. we were not even allowed to touch the pop machine !!


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2006)

....uphill..BOTH ways..waist deep in wet snow.........and no shoes!!!!


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## safeboy43 (28 Mar 2006)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> the instuctors used to beat us on a regular basis..


Really? My friend went through in 89 and said that they passed a law that they wern't allowed to beat you. Although in St Jean, the instructors can't even touch you without permission....


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## Kat Stevens (28 Mar 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ....uphill..BOTH ways..waist deep in wet snow.........and no shoes!!!!


... and we were thankful!


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## scoutfinch (28 Mar 2006)

Geez... and I am doing a reserve BMQ currently where we are NOT PERMITTED to do PT as part of the course materials!  (I shit you not!)


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## TCBF (28 Mar 2006)

That's so they don't hurt you and enable a claim against the crown.  It's your job to get in shape and stay there.


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## scoutfinch (28 Mar 2006)

I agree with the reasoning.  I just think it is sad that it has come to that point.   I realize that people doing strenous activities once per week without the proper preparation are begging for an injury.  Besides, the brief PT sessions on Saturday and Sunday morning will hardly enable a person to become fit. 

But it is disappointing.  I was hoping to use the opportunity to improve my upper body strength... now I have to find the self-discpiline to do it myself (of which I have none when it comes to perfecting pushups so I have hired a personal trainer three times per week for the duration of the course to work on my upper body strength.)


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## Wookilar (28 Mar 2006)

Having done both CFRS Cornwallis and CFLRS St. Jean, IMO Cornwallis was the superior of the two. Just the set-up alone.

There is way too much of a chance of not leaving the Mega for days, depending on what your schedule is. In Cornwallis, you were out side a great deal. Doubling around, as I remember it. With your penant, if you didn't screw things up too much.

The new mess that was built (late '80's?) was far superior. The food in St. Jean is excellent (as was Cornwallis), but wasting half your meal time in a line up and around the stairs does not seem to make much sense.

PT: what ever happened to a regular PT/Swimming program being part of basic? It's bloody deplorable now.

The Mess: now, I only got to the Green and Gold twice. There was not a lot there, as I remember it, but I sure appreciated the cold beer. With the amount of money pouring into the Mess at St. Jean, you would think they'd have some better stuff. (free pool, for one.).

Competition: What ever happened to sports days between the platoons?

Marching: Inside the basement? Honestly, what's up with that?


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## Bzzliteyr (28 Mar 2006)

I only made it to the Green and Gold once.. grad day (too young).  I went through Cornwallis in the winter of 93 and I found it to be "rougher" than it is in St.Jean(which I only ever visited once, as an instructor).  However, we only got to play on one or two of the obstacle course obstacles due to winter conditions.  We never lost any beds out windows, we had no other courses "in house" so we had the run of the base for awhile, not that that helped us at all.. all staff on base knew we were the only ones.  I remember having to complete the swim test, and jump off the diving board with combats (and webbing?).. is that still practiced?

The old practice was to scare students into being soldiers, now it more of a coach students into being soldiers.. which I find appealing, yet I notice it doesn't tend to filter out the weak until it is too late, and they get traumatized on their DP1.

All in all, I believe it's the instructors and their mentality that makes it good or bad, not the location.  My 2 cents.

Bzz


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## Jungle (28 Mar 2006)

Everything changes: BMQ is not TQ-2, IAP/ BOTP is not phase 1, DP-2 is not ISCC... and if Cornwallis was still open, it would have changed too. Get over it, everything changes.


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## orange.paint (28 Mar 2006)

I went through the st jean way and we did not have cleaners coming in during the morning.Looking back on it was it difficult?no. It was a good introduction to army life there was a lot of yelling ,push ups ,and a hell of a lot of double time around the mega.Does it compare to Cornwallis?Not in my mind.At least prior to the human rights bullshit.

Yep we did the military swim test too.Mind that was a few years back now and god knows how things have changed.(we use to call people by rank on battle school too,seems to not be too important anymore either)


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## grayman (28 Mar 2006)

Ah Cornwallis, loved it, entire Platoons in one room, living in an H hut, daily reamings......ah the memories of being called over the loudspeaker in the shacks...."Tim Horton to the office..NOW", running like hell to get to the Instructors office, which, I might add, was in the same building, to make coffee.  Not being allowed to walk on your waxed floor with your garrison boots on, thats a type of uniform we used to wear, for the younger readers.  Did I mention the waxed floors which we had to wax,  never saw a civy cleaner...EVER, walked past the pop machine everyday ensured it was properly dusted, dont remember ever being able to purchase a can of pop though.  Green and Gold...once on grad day, got a weekend off in Digby in CF short order I might add, never saw my civies......EVER.  V sits on the side of the pool with the PERI staff, only being allowed to wear issued PT gear, remember the Cornwallis cripplers. "Into sitting......CHANGE".  Marched everywhwere.  Give me a moment, I think I'm about to shed a tear.  
And now 13 years later full circle I'm the instructor, no swearing, no waxing floors, civy cleaners, allowed out in week 4, with civies, PSP, Ipods, cell phones you name it they get it, and instructors cant do anything about it.  Well here in Borden anyway, but that is a completely different post altogether, and boy there would be a lot of ranting and raving, but I digress, in my opinon, and only mine, Cornwallis was far superior, to St Jean, and Borden.  I was in the very last course of Cornwallis, no parade for us, the course before us got all the glory.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2006)

Shoulda tried going through in '71  ;D


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## orange.paint (28 Mar 2006)

when centurion was a rank? ;D


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## Shadowhawk (29 Mar 2006)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> I went through Cornwallis (shudder) in 1991.. the instuctors used to beat us on a regular basis.. and I heard that in St Jean.. there are cleaners who come in at night and get the building ready for inspection while the troops are running around camp in civies.. and heading to montreal for the evening..  ;D



I was at the Mega in St Jean. Grad Dec 04. I didn't see any cleaners in my room or area of responsibility. (they must have been on vacation the 10 weeks I was there. ;D) There was a duty platoon (each platoon took a week). They were to keep the mega's common areas clean. (cigarette butts picked up, stairs swept and mopped, hallways swept and mopped, etc)

As for troops running around in civies ... yep, after the work day was over and, you were allowed to wear civies inside the mega only; (not that you were allowed to leave the mega until the weekend) and on the weekends you could wear civies. The only other time you could wear "civies" was during PT classes ... usually for about 5 to 6 km run with the PT instructor or 3 Km with platoon staff in the mornings) 

Montreal was something you may get to do on the weekend only. Provided that your platoon was "good" all week.

I find that when folks get talking about "the way it was"... the people who have gone before us always had it worse of that we did. We will be telling the next bunch of recruits how bad we had it too... just wait for it. :

Cheers


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## Bzzliteyr (29 Mar 2006)

So there is no more wearing of coveralls at night?  In Cornwallis (now that you make me think) as soon as our day was "done" we'd strip down and put on coveralls.. usually nothing on underneath if I remember correctly.. kind of prison like and then work on our station jobs, ironing, boot polishing...I had a blast....


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## Matt_Fisher (29 Mar 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> when centurion was a rank? ;D



No, when Centurion was a tank...


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Mar 2006)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> No, when Centurion was a tank...



Yup, and mine was 51-81355. Some things you never forget  OK, back on TRACK, as it were.


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## deltaop (29 Mar 2006)

from what i seen so far St. Jean is a cake walk compared to Cornwallis. good grief they have it way to easy. mind you i have not been to St. Jean so i really cant make a fair judgement. but from what i have seen its about right.


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## Bzzliteyr (29 Mar 2006)

Darn those teachers!! They don't teach kids how to use CAPITAL letters anymore!!


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## SweetNavyJustice (29 Mar 2006)

Ah the good ol days of Cornwallis when you had to be beaten, screamed at, ridiculed, and weren't allowed to even see or smell your civies for the duration of your time there.  All of these elements seem to me to be what makes a good soldier.....oh wait.....no they don't!  

I know that in my spry 9 1/2 years in the CF I've only had the pleasure to experience St.Jean (twice - once on BMQ '97, once IAP '05).  

I must admit that I do find it funny that people equate the necessity to be beaton and waxing floors with the creation of a good soldier.....  It seems a little distorted to me.  Being from the navy I've waxed many a deck in my day and have never seen the point.  Tasks such as that are mindless tasks, and this is a time when we are training our soldiers to be 'smart'.  To obey orders without question still yes, but smart!  

Was Cornwallis better then St.Jean?  I would submit that that is an impossible question to answer.  This may sound corney, but what it comes down to, no matter where the training is conducted, is what the young soldier takes away from the experience.  A sense of pride in service, dedication, and esprit de corps.  This is what is most important.


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Mar 2006)

NavyJustice,

The "point" of making recruits wax floors is several fold:

1)  It creates a reflex about keeping things neat, clean, and orderly.  Since we (soldiers, sailors and airmen) often live in close quarters in sometimes less than hygienic parts of the world, this helps keep us all safe and healthy;

2)  It creates a reflex about paying attention to detail.  Making someone wax a floor (and I waxed many while on phase trg in Gagetown) may be the first time in their lives that (some recruits) are actually given a job and held to standard.  Gotta start somewhere.

3)  It is just one of those "many things" that are chucked at recruits that force them to get organized as a group, work as a team, work efficiently and organize their time.

4)  Doing all of these things (uniforms, rooms, kit) well actually gives recruits a sense of accomplishment when they begin to "get it".

As for waxing decks once you hit the fleet- you got me on that one.  I understand the cleaning stations thing, as I want to live on hygenic ship (notwithstanding how many times I've come down the "[insert ship name here] hack"), but waxing decks seem to me to be going too far.  I find them a bit slippery when wet- not something I'm a big fan of in a fire or emergency.  Perhaps some of our more "pusser" members could weigh in here...

And we don't want soldiers  





> To obey orders without question still yes


.  We want soldiers who think while following orders.  Questions- certainly- if there is time.  If not- I'll explain later.  If we are still alive.  It should be obvious when you are in one of those "don't ask questions moments".

Cheers!


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 Mar 2006)

> As for waxing decks once you hit the fleet- you got me on that one.  I understand the cleaning stations thing, as I want to live on hygenic ship (notwithstanding how many times I've come down the "[insert ship name here] hack"), but waxing decks seem to me to be going too far.  I find them a bit slippery when wet- not something I'm a big fan of in a fire or emergency.  Perhaps some of our more "pusser" members could weigh in here...



Far from pusser but the CO's like their decks waxed and since they rarely have to dress up in B Gear and Chemox thats the way it will remain until someones death or injury is attributed to a waxed deck.


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## Sailing Instructor (29 Mar 2006)

Why one would wax floors seems no different to me than why we must fold a foot of our linen down on our beds.  It is merely to build a manner of organising work and responding to orders (just as SeaKingTacco said).

Regarding the wear of civvies: frankly, I found them a bother.  You have to stuff them in your kit bag/suitcase in an empty room with 20 other persons' luggage.  So much for anything unwrinkled on the weekends. 

I agree that St Jean's dining room is ill-organised (for the amount of persons that go through).  Apparently last year sometime there were instructors rushing through all students (SLT too) to get everyone through.

The mess is not too bad for OCdts.  Free pool exists, you can 'sneak' into the other parts of the mess and the tv room.  I really disagree with the policy that we pay dues, yet cannot vote.  I don't even know if there are mess meetings.  Can someone tell me how this is legal?


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## TCBF (29 Mar 2006)

"Well here in Borden anyway, but that is a ..."

- Considering the Standards for Recruits in Borden are mandated by the Recruit Standards Cell in St. Jean, you may wish to suggest an effort  be made to confirm, and if necessary, standardize the 'Instructor Response' to various situations - if in fact it is different.   Someone  may be under-reacting and tying your hands needlessly, or, the Instructors in St Jean may well be in the same boat.

Is not your "Recruit Instructor's Aide Memoire" written by the CFRLS Standards Cell in St. Jean?


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## SweetNavyJustice (29 Mar 2006)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> NavyJustice,
> 
> The "point" of making recruits wax floors is several fold:
> 
> ...



Your points are well taken seaking tacco as are sailing instructors with regard to what waxing a floor can bring.  My response, and I suppose question would be this.  People are using the fact that in Cornwallis you used to have to wax floors as (being an element of) equating to being a better training establishment for "boot camp".  I didn't have to wax "decks" until hitting the fleet and don't think that it made me less of a soldier/sailor.  

Like it was in Cornwallis as it is still at St.Jean, they encourage teamwork and are just as obsessed with burning off threads, measuring out your bed, etc.  All of which encourage and promote attention to detail and reflexes about keeping things neat.  

I just think it's remiss to use the fact that "in the old days" they had to wax floors, not wear civi's and that they had the joy of being beaten prior to 1982 (pre charter days) that would have made them better soldiers.  

From then until now as will be the case in the future, Basic training is about the experience.  Regardless of what happens there you're going to get people who are more switched on to the military lifestyle and you're going to continue to get those who "just don't get it".


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## Jungle (29 Mar 2006)

Waxing floors was not exclusive to Cornwallis ... we used to wax floors in St-Jean when I went through. I don't feel I have accomplished something special by applying liquid wax on a floor, but I feel they taught me the basics about teamwork, about trusting my peers and superiors, about putting service first; among other things... 
While some techniques have come and gone, and the tools have changed, the essence of Basic Trg has remained the same since the time of the Roman Legions. And while some of you seem to live in the past, most of today's Junior Ranks who are fighting today's battles have been trained in the "new", waxless system, and they seem to be doing fine.


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## 8CH 24C (30 Mar 2006)

I went though Cornwallis in 86. Course 8627. It was hard! But I dont remember ever being beaten by a instructor. A size 12 on my back while doing pushups but they werent allowed to touch us the with out permission so I doubt they could in 89.


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## twistidnick (30 Mar 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Geez... and I am doing a reserve BMQ currently where we are NOT PERMITTED to do PT as part of the course materials!  (I crap you not!)



I am a reservist currently doing BMQ too, and we are permitted to do PT and we do it a lot. I'm not a runner and we do a lot of running. A lot of push up too. But, my favorite are the ruck marches. I love them


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## dynaglide (30 Mar 2006)

Went through Cornwallis in '91 and it had it's tough moments to be sure.  But beaten?  Don't think so...  If that was the case, this cat would have been doing some time in Club Ed if you know what I'm saying.  I think I have to call bull#$%^!!!


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## 8CH 24C (30 Mar 2006)

What about NCBW training? I remember being run down the firing range through a cloud of CS gas the day before we wee issued gas masks! Excuse me, does anyone have a kleenex? Name rank and sin # with masks off in the hut, 6 guys at a time and everybody better get it right! Good times


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## safeboy43 (30 Mar 2006)

8CH 24C said:
			
		

> What about NCBW training? I remember being run down the firing range through a cloud of CS gas the day before we wee issued gas masks! Excuse me, does anyone have a kleenex? Name rank and sin # with masks off in the hut, 6 guys at a time and everybody better get it right! Good times


Correct me if I am wrong but do they not do the same thing at St. Jean?

PS- Thanks for replying everybody!


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## 8CH 24C (30 Mar 2006)

Thats why I posted that. I was wondering what was going on these days


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## Shadowhawk (30 Mar 2006)

8CH 24C said:
			
		

> What about NCBW training? I remember being run down the firing range through a cloud of CS gas the day before we wee issued gas masks! Excuse me, does anyone have a kleenex? Name rank and sin # with masks off in the hut, 6 guys at a time and everybody better get it right! Good times





			
				safeboy43 said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong but do they not do the same thing at St. Jean?
> 
> PS- Thanks for replying everybody!



To keep it short ... NO. They do not do this in St. Jean. At least not with my platoon.


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## TCBF (31 Mar 2006)

In Cornwallis 1984 - 1986, we (instructors) were issued gas grenades to re-inforce recruit masking drills while at the Granville Ferry Ranges during Week 9.  Fact is, we spent more time trying to gas each other than we ever did the recruits.  You can bet MY drills picked up!



Tom


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## orange.paint (31 Mar 2006)

Did the gas in the field thing to us in st jean,also let dummies like myself sniff the container holding the pills the day prior...I'm also the guy who volunteered to put pepper spray in my eye.


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## Shadowhawk (1 Apr 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Did the gas in the field thing to us in st jean,also let dummies like myself sniff the container holding the pills the day prior...I'm also the guy who volunteered to put pepper spray in my eye.



When did they stary pepper spray training in St Jean?


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## 17thRecceSgt (3 Apr 2006)

Never been to this thing called the "Mega" but...I have a few buddies that went thru Basic there...seemed alot different than what I did.  I was in Cornwallis in '89, 12 Platoon - 8930.  

10 weeks of fun.  Coveralls at night with slippers, berets on as you marched out to the Hollow Square for your allowed 10 minute smoke break (10 to the hour, until the hour...SHARP).  Paying attention to detail (marking on workdress pants...last 3, last name, pltn #...on combat pants it was last name, last 3 and initials...screw that one up and you are in for ALOT more sewing, 8 stitches per 1/4 inch...), late nights doing kit/quaters/station jobs...remedial drill with Pte Stompy Stomp...team work team work, max individual effort, hurry up and wait...the PERI staff were fun  :-\

All in all, it was the worst thing ever the first week until Thursday.  Thursday....you got kitted out...and aside from having to carry all this kit back to your H hut...then...with your new haircut...and a uniform on, you were a soldier (well you thought you were).

Beatings?  Never by the staff...they didn't have to.  They just gave us "buddies" in week 9 at Granville (buddies were later found out to be 40 lb sand bags...lots of fun on our runs out there   :blotto.

When you did that Grad Parade...you felt like you had made it thru something.  So there they also built a sense of confidence.  It was pretty tough for a civie off the street, which I was, but when we were done...it was like..you had made it thru something and your own self-doubt was less, if not gone.

Would I do it again?  with the same group of guys...you betcha.

I have heard the St Jean is more of an "'attendance" thing now.  That's what bothers me.  We used to have SI (Trng Sgt Inspections) for the people that needed it, and the old RTU Canoe/aka Kit Bag Drag...every week you would see guys with these sorta wheelbarrows dragging their kit to their new Platoon...the ones that were re-coursed.  That fear alone kept you on your toes...cause you KNEW you had to re-label ALL your kit...8 stitches per 1/4 inch...as per "The Bible".  Once was enough...so you kept your own **** wired tight.

Times have changed...so has the CF.  But the lessons, as long as the lessons about team work, loyalty, dedication, service and selflessness, attention to detail, discipline...as long as they are still taught, that should be the most important thing.

I wonder though, when we got kitted out, I lost my belt.  I told my Master Seamen, who showed up 20 minutes later and said "You owe me, Millar!"...my (stupid) reaction was to haul out my wallet and say "how much MS?".

Lots and lots and lots of pushups.  Would it be the same now??  Would I be able to haul out my "time-out" card?


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## orange.paint (3 Apr 2006)

Shadowhawk said:
			
		

> When did they stary pepper spray training in St Jean?



Sorry got off on a tangent it was later in my Career I pepper sprayed myself for fun.Should have clarified.


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## Bzzliteyr (3 Apr 2006)

17th.. just this past winter, during my 6A (DP3).. I had someone hacking on my nicely formed tuque.. joking at how "new" I was.. I told him it was my tuque from when I joined, he wouldn't believe me until I flipped it inside out and showed him [XXXXX,last 3 of SIN, 2PL]... still in there from way back in 93...


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## Centurian1985 (3 Apr 2006)

TCBF, I would be curious if you were one of our tormentors from the 1985 Cornwallis era! Ah, the wife tells me suppers on! Back in a few minutes to finish this thought...


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## Centurian1985 (3 Apr 2006)

Where was I? Oh yes...

The problem with our system these days is that the training istandard is far too low.  Work in foreign environments is hard on both the body and the mind, and the bad guys dont stop shooting just beacuse you wave a red card and tell the platoon sergeant you need a 'time out'.  Some people cant hack it and it should be in training that these oldiers are weeded out, not in the field.   This is part of why the rate of mental exhaustion for soldiers returning from overseas is so high.  The other reason is that they are sent to do jobs for which they have not received the proper training, and are forced to learn OJT what the job is and what mistakes not to make.   

 (One of my pet peeves is seeing officers leading reserve or regular units in pepperpot actions across an open field.  Are you serious? They think we're still plugging the Fulda gap with Canandian cannon fodder. We've been working in BUA's since 1974!  Fire and movement teams from cover to cover, not in a single line across open fields! Sheesh!). 

The same concept applies to some of the special jobs that some CF members volunteer for.  If you dont pass, you dont pass.  They will let you know if you should try again.  If they suggest you try another occupation, its because you are not suited for the volunteer work.


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## Patrolman (4 Apr 2006)

I did not do Cornwallis or St. Jean. I did my basic combined with my TQ3 in Meaford in 1997. My course as well as the one after mine was an experimental thing for the Infantry. I think it was an excellent idea. I had all infantry instructors from day one. The instructors were all from the Cornwallis generation so things were run much like Cornwallis. 
 We wore coveralls every evening after supper, waxed floors evert evening. The pop machine was just outside the fire doors on our floor but we were not allowed to touch it for 12 weeks. No beatings, but lots of airborne push-ups and stress posistions. No civies except for church parade, no leaving your wing at all unless you smoked. It is amazing how many people become church goers or smokers just to get away from the routine for a short while.
 Sorry if my post was a bit off topic. As for the original question. Based on what I know about both training facilities(second hand) Cornwallis definately turned out a better recruit.


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## aesop081 (4 Apr 2006)

Patrolman said:
			
		

> I did not do Cornwallis or St. Jean. I did my basic combined with my TQ3 in Meaford in 1997. My course as well as the one after mine was an *experimental * thing for the Infantry. I think it was an excellent idea. I had all infantry instructors from day one.



Thats the way it was done when my father joined R22R in 1964.  Funny how the more things change they always seem to come full circle eventualy


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## 17thRecceSgt (4 Apr 2006)

Bzzliteyr

HA HA HA.  Thats TFF.  the good 'ol days eh?  I remember the RFMs that were re-coursed to our Pltn...needle and thread at the ready.

Ok, got to go.  CTV is "reporting" that Pte Costall was a FF-cas.

Christ.  Let the man RIP.

 :threat: :threat: :threat:


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## 17thRecceSgt (4 Apr 2006)

Centurion,

Agreed on lots (ok all) your points.  The "red card" one is my point I hopefully make here in this post.

Whatever happened to..."train the way you fight...fight the way you train".  That was so simple...it worked.  Alas, probably why it was lost along the way.  "IT MADE SENSE".

WRT to these "stress cards"...unless the En is going to drop them on our troops before H-Hour...get ride of em.  Period.  Regardless of your DEU.  If I am on a CPF...can I pull it out during "bong bong's"....or....if a aircraft has a emerg in flight...can I tell the AC..."sorry sir...I am on a time out..."....or if you are in the crap with your "army unit"  can you look at Sgt Smith and say "not now Sarge...wait...here is my card...".  BS.  TRAIN THE WAY YOU FIGHT...FIGHT THE WAY YOU TRAIN.  

Just my limited experience thoughts...BUT I have lots of "why we do it this way" stuff from my old man who flew ASW and SAR for years...some of it over the territory of our old "enemy" and hunting their sub-surface best...the lesson is the same regardless of what color of your beret/wedge/forge cap/whatever.  Like the old man said..."the only rules you are gonna have to follow in combat are the ones offered by your enemy...and he knows you doctrine."

I remember reading in "Sentinel" ( wasn't that what it was called) prior to the Maple Leaf days, about "Danger Close Fire" days in Pet where Cmbt Arms soldiers were exposed to...within safe distances and with OHP...live arty.  "Train the way you f..."

If I can, I would liken building a soldier to building a house.  Ya gotta start with a strong foundation.  I can't testify that the "new" way is not the case, but I can say that Corn-holis was strong one.  BUT...maybe..'cause of the "Cold War" and the DS we had...and where they knew they MIGHT be sending us...it was different.  I know the best instr's we had, from a "recruit" perspective...was our Cmbt Arms guys.  They were the ones that came in on the weekends and told the guys going Cmbt Arms why we needed to have our **** together.  If not for them...well...enough said.  Not to knock the other staff....they were good too.  But the Cmbt Arms ones were the "I want to be like him" figures...atleast in my squad.  

Training standards to low?  Agreed!  But...does that include the "sick lame and lazy" in the CF that are Jnr NCO's, Snr NCOs, WOs and of the Commissioned variety?  I would suggest that the SL & L exist in ALL branches...in all ranks.  And the CF has allowed, willingly, knowingly...or not...for it to get this way.  Who else can "we" blame?  

These types, unfortunately, influence, willingly or not, the new troops coming in.  I remember hearing from a very good Snr NCO when I was a Cpl "if you teach a soldier the right way to do something, they will remember that if you were effective."  I am willing to bet that the same can be said of teaching something the WRONG way to our soldiers.  First impressions are lasting ones, after all.

I agree, to a point, that some of the "battle weary" troops coming home "may" be more battle weary than the more rigourously trained ones.  I do, however, remember sitting in my broom closet (AA-11 in Gtown) in '99 talking to a Reg Frce Fd Enger Snr NCO who was going on his 4th tour in as many years...and maybe that had something to do with his mental exhaustion.   Now, I am not an expert...so...please educate me if I am not in my lane here...BUT didn't that whole thing start with FRP?  

I am standing behind the Figure 12, so fire away all!  We'll count the "shots on target" later...

 :soldier:


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## Jungle (4 Apr 2006)

I don't know where this comes from, but the rumour comes back every once in a while: *there are NO stress or time-out cards used in any part of Basic Trg.*

Stop spreading rumours. Stay within your lanes.



> People may doubt what you say, but they will believe what you do.
> ~ Lewis Cass ~


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## ArmyRick (4 Apr 2006)

The stress or time out card is a military urban legend. It has vener existed. I am very much involved in our trg system (I teach DP1 INF Reg at the moment) and I frequently talked to my students about their St Jean issues. Now some of the real problems I have had with old St jean is...
(1) Having to do a CF98 in December '05 for an injury that took place at St jean in garrison in Sept '05 and its not like the soldier left immediately after his injury, he didn't graduate basic for another month. Thats alot of phone calls and talking in french (which i aint so good at).
(2) A soldier never being taught correct C7 drills and then we showd him what he was doing wrong. He told us he had a french weapons instructor in St Jean who just got frustrated when ever he asked for help (apparently their was language issues between the two of them). This soldier by the way was not a f*cking retard, he was an ex-service member from a ways back getting back in and he was fairly switched on.
(3) A soldier loses kit in Farnham and three weeks later in meaford he told us that his staff said "Meaford will deal with your lost and damage report" WTF? Where was the bloody leadership on that?

I am not saying that St Jean does not have good leaders and instructors, they do. I am saying I have witnessed several incidents wich make me suspicious as to how some NCOs or officers at CFLRS conduct business. The above was only the tip of the ice berg.


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## ccdec (4 Apr 2006)

Ah...........Cornwallis 1977.  Can I compare them? No.... All I can say is that it was quite an experience, and, we were never physically abused but did learn alot of new words which I can't repeat here.  www.cornwallismuseum.ca is a pretty good site if you want to go through memory lane.


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## Patrolman (4 Apr 2006)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> That's the way it was done when my father joined R22R in 1964.  Funny how the more things change they always seem to come full circle eventually


 You are right. What I should have said was my course was an experiment to see if they wanted to re-introduce this training method so as to avoid sending infantry soldiers to St. Jean to be trained by different trades. I should mention the RCR,PPCLI,and the R22R all ran two of the courses in the fall of 97/spring of 98. Talk you any unit who received soldiers from these courses and you will probably hear that we were at a higher standard than those who came from St.Jean.


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## Centurian1985 (4 Apr 2006)

Sorry to disagree with you but the 'card' system actually was used during a brief period (I wish I could back this up more, I knew one of the NCO's involved with the process, he used to live in Kingston but I dont have a number for him anymore), and yes it was removed and is no longer used anywhere that I know of.  However, the term has now become a symbol of other measures in the system so that people say 'red card' dont actually mean a physical 'red card' but rather an action equivalent to a red card. (i.e. complaints about being yelled at unneccesary).  

Advantages of current system: removes threats of physical assault by instructors and removes punitive physical exercise for trivial misdemeaners.  BTW, in ref to a previous comment, the reason we put up with all the verbal and physical abuse back in the Cornwallis days was because we REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to join and were willing to put up with anything to get in (to paraphrase an old Monty Python joke - why do you put up with it? to prove I'm serious about joining up!).  

Reference the multiple tours, you are right that is a valid case of exhaustion, apologies for missing I missed that one.  As far as I know that was a serious problem from 1993 to 1998; are people still getting deployed without adequate rest time between tours?


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## Shadowhawk (4 Apr 2006)

You know ... people tend to think that "the way they did it" was the toughest way and the only way and the best that "it" can be done.

This is not only true case for the military. When I earned my Amateur Radio License in the early 90's... I was reminded by a "friend" that I wasn't a real amateur radio operator because I didn't have to write the same test that he did. His was "way tougher than mine". 

When I was 13 years old I joined the army cadets. An older guy (not sure of his age... at 13 ... everyone older than you is old) pointed out that when he was a cadet they did more PT, and were shouted at a lot more than I was.

My point is that I'm sure that St Jean was just as "tough" on the new recruits as was Cornwallis. It may have been different, but may have been just as tough.

There are no red stress cards you can pull out and show to staff if your "feelings" get hurt. Nobody complaine about getting yelled at...If we were yelled at ... we deserved it.
There was lots of PT in the form of push-ups, sprints, rucksac marches, crunches, etc everyday (well ... except the rucksac marches... they wear about every 4 days after the first 3 weeks were complet). 
We had to sew labels on our uniform too, just like the guys at Cornwallis, we had to wear coverall or PT gear after hours (I considered these civie clothes), we had late hours and early mornings doing station jobs. Teamwork was strongly encouraged (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) (take a p in the toilet that your buddy just cleaned for inspection and you will find out how teamwork works) Just like Cornwallis.

I just didn't think it was all that tough. But then again, maybe I'm come form a different era. I had to chop wood for heat as a young' un'. Different time.

I know some of the younger guys had a real hard time of it. Some of them breezed through.

The only ones that Pi$$ed me off were the folks that couldn't or wouldn't even try ... and they were pushed though. (We suspected it was to meet some sort of quota system) Now, I'm not sure if there is a quota system in place or not, but, if every time there is a rucksac march, you are sick or can't complete it... the military is not for you. If you cannot get your uniform on correctly, the military is not for you, If you can't execute proper drill even after you "passed" your second and third attempt at the "drill test"... the military is not for you. IMHO you should not graduate with the rest of us who gave 110% all the way.

OK ... I've probably angered enough people with my rant... I will leave now.

Remember, things are never as tough as they used to be.   :

Cheers


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## FateumetMeum (4 Apr 2006)

In St Jean in 97.....a joke.

The only thing I found "hard" was putting up with the french instructions. Good curse dictionary though.


CORNWALLIS....HELL
My uncle has a picture his buddies took of him after having a barrack box thrown at him. Broken nose and still finished basic.
St Jean was filled with disbanded RCR airborne guys when I went through. So their attiude was bitter but more towards the brass than the trainees.
The media takes the blame for decreased aggression at basic, too many young feellas dyin on the PT runs. Had a 22 yr old kid collapse on our 17 k march, next course did a 10k.

if your looking for comparisons....DON'T Cornwallis has its history and cobb webs, built good soldiers and screened out a lot of shit.
St jean is for a new military, the passive peace keeper, true training doesnt exist until after basic.  

my 2 cents.....


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## ArmyRick (5 Apr 2006)

I stand by my statement. The time out card did not exist. I have talked to guys involved in the training system for the last 12 years and they all agree, it was a load of sh*t. I would like something more substanstial to back up any claims otherwise.


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## PJ D-Dog (5 Apr 2006)

How about Cornwallis and St Jean Vs Parris Island.....no match...(just kidding guys, trying to lighten things up a bit).

PJ D-Dog.


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## Centurian1985 (6 Apr 2006)

After talking with Rick I have to agree with him.

His argument appears stronger then mine with more sources to back it up - therefore, I retract my claim that cards were used in the training system, and will have to pummel the so-called reliable source who confirmed for me this was true. 

(All bow to Lord Rick, Most Knowledgeable and Noble, many kowtows....)

Take note, its not often I got caught out wrong!  Must be an intelligence failure!!


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## safeboy43 (6 Apr 2006)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> How about Cornwallis and St Jean Vs Parris Island.....


My grandfather (now dead) went through paris island during WW2 and cornwallis during the Korean War. He said cornwallis was a walk in the park compared to paris island.....


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## Gunner98 (6 Apr 2006)

Stress cards are now in use in US Army Basic Training system (according to anecdotal evidence from the approx. 150 Capts I am on course with in Texas.) 

I was a Coy Comd in Cornwallis, the last B Coy one in 1994 to be clear.  I have spoken to my former sdubordinates/instructors that moved to Saint Jean and other Basic Trg establishments (Area Battle Schools and QL2 summer training) after Cornwallis closed and they indicated that stress cards were not sanctioned by the entire training system.  There is anecdotal evidence from instructors and graduates from some courses that individual sections, platoons and courses have used them.  Instructors and students have indicated that some courses have adopted nap time to replace PT periods when deemed beneficial.

Anecdotal evidence from credible sources involved in individual courses (sections or serials) run in St. Jean, militia armouries and Area Battle School lend some credence to it being more than a legend, but not necessarily establishment policy.


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## aesop081 (6 Apr 2006)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> Stress cards are now in use in US Army Basic Training system (according to anecdotal evidence from the approx. 150 Capts I am on course with in Texas.)



Out of curiosity, when did that come in ?  It wasnt in place in 2003 when i was teaching down there.


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## Gunner98 (6 Apr 2006)

US - stress cards - I'm told during the last 18 months they have seen increasing presence at training locations.


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## Shadowhawk (6 Apr 2006)

safeboy43 said:
			
		

> My grandfather (now dead) went through paris island during WW2 and cornwallis during the Korean War. He said cornwallis was a walk in the park compared to paris island.....



I rest my case.

Cheers


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## Centurian1985 (6 Apr 2006)

Damn, Gunner, are you sure? I just kowtowed to Ricks superior knowledge - better send an email and see if you to can come to an agreement beacuse now I dont know if my buddy was BS'ing me or not!


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## 2 Cdo (6 Apr 2006)

Whether it was officially sanctioned or not, time outs were given to recruits in St Jean at some time prior to 2004. I base this on an incident I had while instructing an SQ course on C7 drills, which were taught incorrectly previously, and while trying to motivate a young private  ;D he actually asked me for a time-out! 

Now, people who know me, know that I am seldom found speechless but in this case I was! After a pause of two-three, I proceeded to inform said misguided and screwed up private that there was no time-outs in the army. By now he was a complete dogs breakfast and I dispatched him back to my 2i/c for some extra motivation in C7 weapons handling.

So somewhere in this young privates trip through the basic training system he was afforded the opportunity for a time-out if he felt stressed! My own experience with the "myth" of time-outs.

The young private after being re-motivated actually developed into a fairly decent troop, hard working and never whined again! Damn, I feel like a miracle worker!


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## Highland Laddie (6 Apr 2006)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Geez... and I am doing a reserve BMQ currently where we are NOT PERMITTED to do PT as part of the course materials!  (I crap you not!)



I call BS on this. I was the Course O for a Reserve BMQ in 38 CBG last winter / spring, and we certainly DID PT. PT is not in the course TP (Training Plan), but all pers must be able to pass the fitness test prior to or on arrival at an SQ - says so right in the SQ TP. This is what I used to justify my PT plan to Standards, etc. My CO happly approved my PT plan, and it was PT every morning at 0530 for my BMQ troopies. Brigade was happy, the troops'  unit COs were happy, and the course staff at their SQ were happy. Everyone told Standards that the BMQ TP MUST be changed to include PT. The two BMQs running in our armoury right now also do PT as part of the course, based upon our approach last year.

Amazing what proper staff work, planning, and a willingness not to accept 'no' as an answer to a common sense issue can do....


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## safeboy43 (6 Apr 2006)

Agreed. I just finished reserve BMQ and beleive me there was PT as part of the course material. :blotto:

Cheers


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## ArmyRick (6 Apr 2006)

careful 2 CDO, I have taught many SQ and DP 1 INF REG, I again brought this up with several instructors and no one can confirm a time out card or an actual time out incident. I have had troops out of St jean try and pull the wool over me eyes. I called his bluff and came out correct.


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## aesop081 (6 Apr 2006)

I never taught at St-jean so i cannot speak with absolute certainty but, not a single student i have had on QL3 at CFSME has ever had "time out" cards on their BMQ ( this was 2001 to 2004)


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## Lost_Warrior (6 Apr 2006)

> Geez... and I am doing a reserve BMQ currently where we are NOT PERMITTED to do PT as part of the course materials!  (I crap you not!)



That doesn't make any sense at all....  :


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## Jungle (6 Apr 2006)

I recently finished a 4-year posting at CFLRS, where I have taught IAPs, BOTPs and BMQs.
There are NO "stress cards", and if anyone had tried to pull a "time out" on me, I would have taken good care of them...  >


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## Gunner98 (6 Apr 2006)

I am an International (Cdn) Student on the US Army Med Corps Capts Career Course (Coy Comds) in Texas and we do PT 5 morning per week.  Fall in at 0520, cannon fires and reveille is played at 0530.  150 officers (including 14 non-US officers) up at the crack of dawn.  Something to be said for the US Army way of life.  Lead by example - US Medical Basic Officer and QL3/5 level courses are out on the same PT fields at the same time. 

While on my SLT/French training back in 1995 (during the Great Referendum period), I witnessed a nap time that replaced a recruit PT session.  The recruits did not leave the Mega at all until the Farnham week.  Shortly after I departed from my SLT my course, a very overweight recruit suffered a heart-attack during a physical activity.  The Sch Comdt (who was R22eR) at the time took a lot of heat for pushing recruits, standards began to fall and subsequent courses we put through at RCA BSL began to tell tales of naps and stress "cards"/hand raising requesting a time-out.  The "Urban Legend" and anecdotes go back that far - more than a decade.


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## Lost_Warrior (6 Apr 2006)

> we do PT 5 morning per week.



Same here.  Not a day went by did we not do at least one hour of morning PT.


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## aesop081 (6 Apr 2006)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> While on my SLT/French training back in 1995 (during the Great Referendum period), I witnessed a nap time that replaced a recruit PT session.  The recruits did not leave the Mega at all until the Farnham week.  Shortly after I departed from my SLT my course, a very overweight recruit suffered a heart-attack during a physical activity.  The Sch Comdt (who was R22eR) at the time took a lot of heat for pushing recruits, standards began to fall and subsequent courses we put through at RCA BSL began to tell tales of naps and stress "cards"/hand raising requesting a time-out.  The "Urban Legend" and anecdotes go back that far - more than a decade.



I did basic in St-jean in 1993 and i can attest to the fact that no such practices existed then ( time outs or nap time.......)


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## Jungle (6 Apr 2006)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> ... and we do PT 5 morning per week.  Fall in at 0520, cannon fires and reveille is played at 0530.  150 officers (including 14 non-US officers) up at the crack of dawn.  Something to be said for the US Army way of life.  Lead by example - US Medical Basic Officer and QL3/5 level courses are out on the same PT fields at the same time.


There is PT everyday on Basic TRG at CFLRS: on days there is no scheduled PT with the PSP staff, it is done with course Instructors at 0510. So basically, we were running by the time they are sounding your reveille !!  



			
				Gunner98 said:
			
		

> While on my SLT/French training back in 1995 (during the Great Referendum period), I witnessed a nap time that replaced a recruit PT session.  The recruits did not leave the Mega at all until the Farnham week.  Shortly after I departed from my SLT my course, a very overweight recruit suffered a heart-attack during a physical activity.  The Sch Comdt (who was R22eR) at the time took a lot of heat for pushing recruits, standards began to fall and subsequent courses we put through at RCA BSL began to tell tales of naps and stress "cards"/hand raising requesting a time-out.  The "Urban Legend" and anecdotes go back that far - more than a decade.


All that stuff didn't last long, because I never witnessed any of it after 2000... before going to Farnham ,they do 3km, 5km and 7km ruck marches, and the obstacle course on a few occasions. And no naps !!!
They may have experimented with stuff, but it obviously wasn't adopted.
As I said before in this thread, the Soldiers fighting today's battles have been trained in the "new ways", and they seem to be doing fine...


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## Gunner98 (6 Apr 2006)

I guess my point was lost on some - at a school that is putting through 45,000 students per year, the PT standard routine is not applied just to the Basic recruit.  All US students at Fort Sam Houston do an in-routine and out-routine  with Fitness test (2 mile run, push-ups and sit-ups), this includes height and weight measurements.  

Yes many of the CF students trained by the new ways are serving well on missions, more than ever before are left behind when their unit deploys - some for legit reasons and others for questionable ones.


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## 2 Cdo (7 Apr 2006)

> careful 2 CDO, I have taught many SQ and DP 1 INF REG, I again brought this up with several instructors and no one can confirm a time out card or an actual time out incident. I have had troops out of St jean try and pull the wool over me eyes. I called his bluff and came out correct.



No need to be careful, merely relating an incident that happened involving MYSELF and a private. No second hand, a friend of a friend, my brothers friends uncle told me nonsense, a real incident! In no way did I say in my post that it was an officially sanctioned thing, but somewhere this private was, at the very least, given the IMPRESSION that a time-out was allowed! If you don't believe it happened then nothing I post will convince you.

But I would be willing to bet that some instructors HAVE done this in the past and would probably deny doing it when confronted, to avoid being seen as weak!


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## Shadowhawk (7 Apr 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> .....  but somewhere this private was, at the very least, given the IMPRESSION that a time-out was allowed! ...



Perhaps this private believed all the BS that has been passed around in regards to the "time-out" and thought he would "giver a go"!


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## 2 Cdo (7 Apr 2006)

> Perhaps this private believed all the BS that has been passed around in regards to the "time-out" and thought he would "giver a go"!



Perhaps I forgot to mention this private was a "Jimmy"!


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## scoutfinch (7 Apr 2006)

Without intending to send too obtuse... what is a *jimmy*?


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## 2 Cdo (7 Apr 2006)

Ask any signaller! ;D


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Apr 2006)

Jimmy = slang for Signaller.

Just like:
Thumper head= Engineer
Pongo=Infantry
Zipper head=Armoured


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## George Wallace (7 Apr 2006)

Nfld_Sapper said:
			
		

> Jimmy = slang for Signaller.
> 
> Just like:
> Thumper head= Engineer
> ...


Actually.......Zipperhead is a Strathcona (spit).


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## Shadowhawk (7 Apr 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Perhaps I forgot to mention this private was a "Jimmy"!



Dem dar fighn' words ...  ;D


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## 2 Cdo (7 Apr 2006)

> Dem dar fighn' words ...


 :rofl: :sniper:


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Apr 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually.......Zipperhead is a Strathcona (spit).



I stand corrected


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## TCBF (8 Apr 2006)

"While on my SLT/French training back in 1995 (during the Great Referendum period), I witnessed a nap time that replaced a recruit PT session.  The recruits did not leave the Mega at all until the Farnham week.  Shortly after I departed from my SLT my course, a very overweight recruit suffered a heart-attack during a physical activity.  The Sch Comdt (who was R22eR) at the time took a lot of heat for pushing recruits, standards began to fall and subsequent courses we put through at RCA BSL began to tell tales of naps and stress "cards"/hand raising requesting a time-out.  The "Urban Legend" and anecdotes go back that far - more than a decade."

- I was a Pl Comd in St Jean 96-97, and a SLC/BOTC Instructor 98-99.  No time-out, no cards, and if they didn't leave the Mega until Week 9 (of an 8 week course at the time), how did they march 600 meters to the Drill Hall every day to learn the Drill they needed for the Grad Parade with open and close order march on the march past in line in slow time?

I still have my Pl nominal rolls, with red lines through the up to 50% of the 'cruits released or recoursed from each serial in St Jean.  I also taught in Cornwallis 84-86, so i know the strengths and weaknesses of both places.


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## Gunner98 (8 Apr 2006)

TCBF said - "If they didn't leave the Mega until Week 9 (of an 8 week course at the time), how did they march 600 meters to the Drill Hall every day to learn the Drill they needed for the Grad Parade with open and close order march on the march past in line in slow time?"  

I stand corrected other than marching those 600 m to the drill hall, they did not leave the Mega vicinity (i.e., no outdoor PT).  I am not sure to what you are making ref to with "week 9 of 8" - I made ref to Farnham week??

I went through Cornwallis for BOTC with 136 other OCdts in summer 1983.  There were approx. 15 recuit platoons plus summer Sea Puppy camp - the Base/facilities were packed.  So I can speak concerning Cornwallis from the perspective as a student and a Coy Comd.

 BOTC in Cornwallis was a lot different than what others experienced in Borden or Chilliwack.

Herbie = Gunner  
Zipperhead has been used to ref to RCD and 8CH as well as LdSH.


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## George Wallace (8 Apr 2006)

Yes, Zipperhead has been used to refer as a "generalization" to all Armour Corps, but we all know that gereralizations are often wrong.   ;D


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## TCBF (8 Apr 2006)

"Yes, Zipperhead has been used to refer as a "generalization" to all Armour Corps, but we all know that gereralizations are often wrong.'

- Yup.  So is spitting, George. (AHEM....).


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## George Wallace (8 Apr 2006)

Should I use my card now Tom?   ;D


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## Mike Rochefort (10 Oct 2006)

Ah..St-Jean.. I can assure you that pre mega recruits were as polished as the Cornwallis ones. In my platoon we were at least 100 plus and were divided into 2  courses in the winter of 1974 and trust me on this there was Pt plenty of it. Our instructors were mostly R22er ans some drop shorts it was a reality check for sure FN's flying everywhere and numerous objects exiting windows on both levels of the old huts. Farnham was no treat as well plenty of physical contact from the instructors if you were a slacker you bloody well knew about it. On completion of basic I found I was well prepared for trades training and along with my Cornwallis counterparts we did very well. There were the normal jabs as to what school was harder but it was determined they were equal in standards at that time. My opinion was they took your mother away from you and replaced her with a SGT and he taught you how to be a man in very short order. To be honest trades training was harder than boot camp by a long shot that SGT became your nightmare no matter what school you were from it ended the same way.

Dare to tell the truth..


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## harry8422 (11 Oct 2006)

cornwallis sounds like quite the place to have been ......pro patria


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## SuperTrooper (11 Oct 2006)

I would have loved either of them in 92!
Did my course in a mod tent from June till mid august in the mattawa.
Cot and the fart sack was our beds, started QL2, weekend off to move our stuff to another mod, then start QL3, after that, then a two week CAC!
1 weekend off for the whole time I was there!
Ran every morning on the beach, then we did a web march on the beach and guess where we did the ruck march........on the beach!
Along with all the other jazz, had a good time.


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## Hockeycaper (11 Oct 2006)

harry8422 said:
			
		

> cornwallis sounds like quite the place to have been ......pro patria



Yes it was......I especially miss the beatings


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## 17thRecceSgt (11 Oct 2006)

I thought they called that "character building".


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## 211RadOp (13 Oct 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I thought they called that "character building".



On my course it was "attitude adjusting". Never saw anyone beaten, but did see a few black and blue recruits.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Oct 2006)

I went to CFRS Cornwallis in '79, and I never saw or heard of any recruit getting even a boot in the arse, let alone a beating.  All a big load of bulldookie.... The army ain't what it used to be, and never was.


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## Hockeycaper (16 Oct 2006)

OK, OK the beatings part is a joke.... see the happy face after my comment. It's just a shot (rubber harpoon) at the newer guys/girls  going through St. Jean to say that of course, we who graduated from Cornwallis had it harder.

And we did 

I am not allowed to talk about the beetings ever again.


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## Kat Stevens (16 Oct 2006)

My reply wasn't directed at you, as I noticed your little smiley guy thingy.  I did see black and blue recruits, mostly the fingers of guys caught thieving.  Any bruises I saw were handed out by other 'cruits to the non-hackers and crap magnets that dragged a whole squad or platoon down.


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## Hockeycaper (16 Oct 2006)

Kat,
 Understood, no hard feeling, just clarifying my post....Things like that surely did happen and to this day no matter where you do basic, I think it still happens. But that is a whole other can of worms. 

I remember during Basic (Corwallis) and Battle School (Petawawa) people being _sorted out_. Most of the time, no hard feelings and very little damage done. (physically). 

Later


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## 17thRecceSgt (16 Oct 2006)

Oh see I thought we were ALL joking with our comments after Cdn Royal's ( I didn't see any black and blue recruits that wasn't caused by...other recruits or the obstacle course or PT) and was just going on with it...and so was 211RadOp I thought.

Guess we forgot the  ;D, my bad.

MRM


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## Popurhedoff (16 Oct 2006)

I went through in 79' ... I never witnessed beatings from the instructors, but I witnessed my share of "Blanket parties" , "Barrack Box Drops from the top bunk",  punch outs and general ass whoopins amongst ourselves.   We sorted ourselves out... thieves got to visit the  infirmary before leaving for good... shit disturbers got re adjusted... many became awesome troops  afterwards etc

The physical work was hard... the PERI staff were circuit training Nazi's (LOL)  and I could not believe how many push ups I could do in a single day  I was out in Granville in the winter... so we wore all our winter kit.. and the 10 mile run back with those freakin over boots was awesome... "Heartbreak Hill" all full of snow and mud.... the obstacle course frozen...  yep them were the days.   You either finished or you didn't.    No excuses... you had to earn it.

There is no comparison between the two schools... and I'll leave it at that.

Cheers
Pop

P.S.  I am still in and I run almost everyday with my Rucksack ... no excuses


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## Rodahn (16 Oct 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Shoulda tried going through in '71  ;D



I'm guessing that recceguy and myself had our first charges in the military in Cornwallis... For dust in our caves....... Seriously Recce... Where did you get the CFR # of my first Deuce and a Half?????


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## a78jumper (21 Oct 2006)

Long before it became a CF institution, St Jean was the basic recruit training centre for the RCAF. My aunt (had dinner with her last night-still feisty at 79) went through there in 1956 and boy does she have stories. 

Not having quite read all seven pages of this soldiers, airmen and sailors have compared what it was like when they went through training with others since the beginning of time. At RMC it was "When I was a Rook" stories. Someone always had it harder....


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## SKIN052 (22 Oct 2006)

Went through Cornwallis in 91 Course number 9135, 9 platoon. Beatings were a no-no but the instructor sure had one hell of a steel finger he would jab in my chest every chance he got. Sure has hell made me a tougher man for it in the end. It was a horrible, horrible time that I will never forget. But I am very glad and proud that I did it.


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## Amos (24 Oct 2006)

I went through CFRS Cornwallis in 1982 (Jan-Mar) course 8201, 15 Platoon  :warstory: , the best!    I remember the first night lying on my bunk and saying "what in the hell am I doing here"   I remember my squad M/Cpl meeting us at the Halifax airport and directing us to our bus....everybody pretty respectable at the time.....bus ride to Cornwallis was calm and quiet....but once we entered through the gates of the CFRS....all hell broke loose!   >   Thank-you M/Cpl Rolson and Sgt Tchetz for the great training, what an experience!  I   you!      :soldier:
Pte(W) Amos!


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## 17thRecceSgt (24 Oct 2006)

Amos said:
			
		

> I went through CFRS Cornwallis in 1982 (Jan-Mar) course 8201, 15 Platoon  :warstory: , the best!    *I remember the first night lying on my bunk and saying "what in the hell am I doing here"*



And all these years I thought I was the only one that happened too!   ;D

Actually I think that crossed my mind when "Mr White"  (well, he was a MCpl but I didn't know that so I was polite and called him Mr White) was screaming in my face for calling him...Mister... 8)


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## bison33 (26 Oct 2006)

Good old Cornwallis........yep...'82 was a good year....no human rights act yet, so needless to say, it was common to get a pace stick across the back of the legs (and that's if they liked you!) and various things tossed at you....and having your kit tossed out the window. Our first weekend at the G&G was a good one, scrapping with a fish head platoon right next door to us (we were about half arty/armoured with a few eme tossed in). After grad, we had another 2 days in the barracks so we decided to do barrack box racing. Our crse WO (WO Boltor, a not so nice PPCLI type) came in to check on us and he lost it. Stripping and waxing the rest of the weekend. But it was a blast there. And way too many push-ups for calling a M/Bdr a M/Cpl :


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## canadianblue (29 Oct 2006)

> And now 13 years later full circle I'm the instructor, no swearing, no waxing floors, civy cleaners, allowed out in week 4, with civies, PSP, Ipods, cell phones you name it they get it, and instructors cant do anything about it.  Well here in Borden anyway, but that is a completely different post altogether, and boy there would be a lot of ranting and raving, but I digress, in my opinon, and only mine, Cornwallis was far superior, to St Jean, and Borden.  I was in the very last course of Cornwallis, no parade for us, the course before us got all the glory.



Sorry to question you, but I don't remember anyone using cellphones, PSP's, or much of any technology unless they had the weekend off. As well I got sweared at plenty as did many other recruits that went through and this was last year. As for civie cleaners, we had some but usually on week 6 a platoon has to do duties such as cleaning and working at the Bistro. I never found BMQ to be easy, far from it, but the experience is one that I'll remember for the rest of my life.


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## STONEY (29 Oct 2006)

Went thru Cornwallis 61/62 when it was a Navy only recruit school .  We did 17 weeks in basic and i don't remember that there but a handfull that didn't hate it or find it tough, but when we graduated we certainly felt a sense of acomplishement .  The base was packed , with all barracks loaded to the hilt, my division was in an old H hut that hadn't been used for years . Our divisional instructors were all senior NCO's ( we had a CPO2 (PT) & PO1 BOSN) permanently assigned . The Junior instructor at recruit centre was a PO2.  Recruits were never to walk at any time , even going to the canteen in the evening we had to move at the double. When we arrived on base recruits were issued some basic work clothes,  then told to strip naked and put every personal piece of gear including toilet kit into a cardboard box 
and address it to our mothers . We were told if the Navy wanted us to have anything we would be issued it.
         As far as toughness of training over the passing of time just remember that if you just take a look at the worlds elite units , French Foreign, Royal Marines, Seals, Delta ,SAS, US Marines & Rangers ETC. all have the toughest training , and the poorest units are the one's with the poorest disipline and training also have the porrest morale.  Hard training builds pride in one's self  and his or her unit.

Amen


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## Gnr_Harrison (3 Nov 2006)

I went through St Jean and it was fairly easy i got to call my wife every night on the pay phone.  We didn'tèt get to have cell phones or any of that other stuff. Yes we got to have weekend 4 off and even got a three day weekend in the middle of the course. After getting to my unit and talking to higher ups and learning about CCornwallis I bbe leaveI had it way to easy.  But after talking to people that just went through a year ago I think that it just keep getting easier!! I bbe leaveit should get hard because of the place the CF is going and of the things we are doing!! I think the BMQ is just not hard enough anymore and people are not ready for the career ahead of them! I also find that it makes for lazy soldiers... 

Thanks for listing


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## canadianblue (3 Nov 2006)

I disagree with the comment that it makes for lazy soldiers. You don't get many breaks during BMQ with the exception of the weekend, or maybe half an hour at night. I found that for the first few weeks. It's not BMQ that'll make a member lazy, thats what PRETC is for!!!


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## Gnr_Harrison (4 Nov 2006)

I am sorry that you feel that way. But i think if you ask people that did a BMQ 5 years ago conpared to a year ago you will find that the BMQ is getting easier and easier.  You will find that in other courses to such as the SQ, if you do your SQ in Meaford compared to SQ in Gagetown. Alot of people are taking the CF as a job but it isn't a job it is a life style! I f you take it as a job then it makes for a lazy soldierand one that doesn't care about the work he or she does. thoughs are just my feelings.


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## Neill McKay (4 Nov 2006)

Gnr_Harrison said:
			
		

> But i think if you ask people that did a BMQ 5 years ago conpared to a year ago you will find that the BMQ is getting easier and easier.



Something tells me you could have made that statement any time in the last eighty years and it would have been equally true.

But my favourite quote on the subject remains "The navy ain't like it used to be -- and it never was, either!"


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## orange.paint (4 Nov 2006)

This may be moving a little bit away from the subject but I want to add in my view on a similar topic.
I went through St.Jean 7 yrs ago.The part I found difficult was being sumurged into a group of people you didn't know coming from all around the country.Having been from a small town it was a new experience for sure.

Watching people marching around had me in awe,they looked like robots.Leaning on the front desk to sign into basic I quickly realised that in the army you didn't lean on stuff(MCPL).Mealtimes and bathroom breaks were scheduled which didn't happen in rural Newfoundland.In 17 years I had never been away from my family for more than 3 weeks,10 seemed at that time an eternity.
When you called someone the wrong name they didn't just correct you by saying my name is Steve.They screamed that "they were not a f*ing master seamen it was master corporal."The only time I came close to quiting was when I had to sew my name on everything.I can recall thinking "I haven't touched a gun yet and I'm sitting here sewing my freaking name on stuff!"Makes sense now but not at that time.

Then I went to battle school in Meaford.A DS staff slept on the floor with us for the first 4 weeks,to keep stress level/cock level high at night.PT was harder,but we were learning new things and I actually found it easier as now I could march,and had a little army background.Things like schedules now seemed normal.However the level of stress seemed much higher there.We didn't get out for the first 6 weeks.And rain or shine we did PT.It was too icy to do a rucksack march out in the training area so we walked in circles on the parade square for an hour.Battle school was intense in many different ways that I wont get into.

However my main point is IT'S ALWAYS MORE DIFFICULT WHEN IT'S YOU!Something else is to realise some  of these kids haven't been away from mommy and daddy (i.e myself at 17) before.10 weeks seems like nothing to a seasoned member but to a fresh civi 10 weeks may seem like a lifetime.

Now on DP1 training they are allowed out every night,unless scheduled training is implemented at night.They just sign out in the book and go get McDonald's.First weekend is usually off (this one was) and if they pass inspections they are usually out fulltime by week 4 (IIRC).They are taught half the course by civilians.

I think basic compared to 7 years ago is still pretty well on par with now.However the DP1 training has greatly decreased.


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## Jungle (5 Nov 2006)

In my opinion, this discussion is completely futile; who cares how difficult Cornwallis was 20 years ago ?? Those who went to Cornwallis have no idea what it was like in St-Jean 20 years ago... but comparing what Basic was 20 years ago with what it is today is ridiculous. It is  like pretending that society has not evolved, and that young people have not changed in 20 years !! Get real !!

From my own recent experience as an instructor at CFLRS, the majority of youths today have never been camping, hunting, fishing, canoeing; the vast majority have not been alone in the woods at night. Most are physically inactive, and some are overweight.
This is the raw product that comes in to Basic. You cannot expect the same results after 10 weeks (or 13 now) that we got 20 years ago.

For what it's worth, the vast majority of young people now fighting in Afghanistan have been trained in the system of the last 10 years; some as recently as less than 2 years ago. And they are doing a marvellous job !!


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## PMedMoe (19 Nov 2006)

I think it's already been said that EVERYONE feels they had it harder than anyone else.  The whole point of Basic Trg is NOT to teach you how to be a soldier (someone whining about sewing on name tags and never touching a gun).  It was to teach you discipline and teamwork!  Basic is SUPPOSED to be stressful because if you can't hack it there, do you think you'll make it in Afghanistan?
My problem with young privates lately is that they don't have ANY respect for higher ranks.    Not to mention, most of them can't do drill worth spit!!    We had new people show up at my former unit who had NEVER done a rucksack march, let alone run 5kms.  In Cornwallis, if you couldn't do the PT required because of an injury, you were recoursed. Is St Jean too easy? I think so.
Just my 2 cents.
Cornwallis, Crse 8645, 10 PL.


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## Scott57 (19 Nov 2006)

Jungle said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, the vast majority of young people now fighting in Afghanistan have been trained in the system of the last 10 years; some as recently as less than 2 years ago. And they are doing a marvellous job !!


Couldn't have said it better. 

As far as recruits showing up at the Unit never having done a ruck march or, not being able to do a 5K run ...personally, I don't recall too many ruck marches (in fact - zero) or very many 5 K runs occurring in Cornwallis when I went through (1975). In fact, the only PT I recall was circuit trg/ swimming tests/ and the mandatory (one time) 1.5 mile run under 12 minutes. When I reported into Calgary, I had never done a ruck march and, had never ran further then 1.5 miles. Was it right -  no. *But .. different time/ place and standards*. At the end of the day (or my career) - I was proud of the fact that I could lead my troops on a 7 or 8 KM run at the age of 48 - something that I could not do when I reported to work in Calgary at the age of 18.


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