# CAP (R) mods this summer (2005)



## fumunda (13 Jan 2005)

Looking for course dates for CAP(r) course this summer, preferably in Gagetown and has to be in MODs. 
Thanks


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## Greasyoldman (20 Jan 2005)

I'm not sure the exact date, but it will be near the last week of May. The reg force serials start Feb 7th and ends April 29th, I beleive there is a 3 week gap (1 break, 2 weeks of Staff Indoc), before the summer serials kick off. The tasking block isn't out yet so I can't give u a definite date.

BTW, this summer, they are combining reg force and res on the CAP courses.. supposed to be somewhere from 8 to 10 platoons.. 

Ty


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## Redeye (20 Jan 2005)

The unmodularized CAP(R) starts 16 May 05 in Gagetown.  The only modularized CAP(R) I could locate a reference to runs in Petawawa and starts in mid-July.

Greasyoldman, are you sure they're combining Reg and PRes candidates?  The course isn't the same anymore, like it was with Phase II and it was all combined - the reserve CAP is much shorter.


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## Greasyoldman (20 Jan 2005)

According to the SME of CAP at C-Coy in the Infantry school, the summer CAP courses are going to be combined from both Reg and Res.


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## Ty (20 Jan 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> The unmodularized CAP(R) starts 16 May 05 in Gagetown.   The only modularized CAP(R) I could locate a reference to runs in Petawawa and starts in mid-July.
> 
> Greasyoldman, are you sure they're combining Reg and PRes candidates?   The course isn't the same anymore, like it was with Phase II and it was all combined - the reserve CAP is much shorter.



Speaking with my recruiting NCM, he did show me three back-to-back modularized CAP(R) courses starting in July (two weeks each).  I'll confirm dates next time I speak with him.


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## Redeye (23 Jan 2005)

Greasyoldman said:
			
		

> According to the SME of CAP at C-Coy in the Infantry school, the summer CAP courses are going to be combined from both Reg and Res.



You're quite correct - candidates who can make the commitment of time can take the Reg F CAP this summer, but there is also a CAP(R) serial running in Gagetown this summer.


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## mdh (23 Jan 2005)

Hi Redeye,

Interesting news there.  This must be a new development since I have been told categorically by several official sources that reg. force phase training was unavailble to reserve officers.


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## Redeye (23 Jan 2005)

It's in a new CANLANDGEN issued in December that the Reserve Army Officer Training Plan will divide into two streams - one for those with "unlimited availability" for summer training - which will see them on the Reg F CAP, and one for those with "limited availability" which will use Reserve stream courses coupled with OJT to meet the same standard.

It is a very interesting development, just read it in the CANLANDGEN today.


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## chrisp1j (23 Jan 2005)

Thats quite interesting. Which phases/areas will be covered for the reservists training with the regular force? 

I don't think my BOR knows about this. Is the CANLANDGEN available somewhere?

Thanks, 

Chris


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## Redeye (23 Jan 2005)

chrisp1j said:
			
		

> Thats quite interesting. Which phases/areas will be covered for the reservists training with the regular force?
> 
> I don't think my BOR knows about this. Is the CANLANDGEN available somewhere?
> 
> ...



It's on the DIN.  I expect it would have been cascaded from LFDTS, and it would apply to CAP for sure, and I presume to classification training as well.  For "unlimited availability" officer cadets, apparently there are three summers planned - CAP, trade training, and then employment on courses.


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## Storm (23 Jan 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> You're quite correct - candidates who can make the commitment of time can take the Reg F CAP this summer, but there is also a CAP(R) serial running in Gagetown this summer.



 ;D SWEEEEEEEET!!! ;D 

This is almost enough to make me not mind how unreasonably long its taking to get me switched between components. It raises my hopes of seeing light at the end of the tunnel...


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## mdh (23 Jan 2005)

It's in a new CANLANDGEN issued in December that the Reserve Army Officer Training Plan will divide into two streams - one for those with "unlimited availability" for summer training - which will see them on the Reg F CAP, and one for those with "limited availability" which will use Reserve stream courses coupled with OJT to meet the same standard.

It is a very interesting development, just read it in the CANLANDGEN today.

Thanks for the info Redeye, this must be what was meant when I heard that some form of MITCIP was coming back to the reserve world, cheers, mdh


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## Redeye (23 Jan 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> It's in a new CANLANDGEN issued in December that the Reserve Army Officer Training Plan will divide into two streams - one for those with "unlimited availability" for summer training - which will see them on the Reg F CAP, and one for those with "limited availability" which will use Reserve stream courses coupled with OJT to meet the same standard.
> 
> It is a very interesting development, just read it in the CANLANDGEN today.
> 
> Thanks for the info Redeye, this must be what was meant when I heard that some form of MITCIP was coming back to the reserve world, cheers, mdh



The most recent iteration of reserve officer training bore closer resemblance to MITCP than anything else, but the CANLANDGEN is quite clear that neither path in the new RAOTP is meant to be connected to the old RESO/MITCP scheme.  The idea is one standard rather than the "class system" that existed with RESO vs. MITCP officers.  The new scheme just allows unit-administered OJT to be used for certain POs.  We'll see what the results are.

It's something of interest to me because I blew out of RESO/BIOC Ph II with an ankle injury in 2001, then had a freakish bout of tendinitis when I returned for CAP(R) the following year.  I had to sit out an entire year of training while I waited to see if I'd be able to continue, and in the meantime finished university and got a civilian job.  The new RAOTP will help ensure that my courses will still be able to qualify me to top standard, when combined with my own initiative in getting trained within the unit.

Now that I'm getting keened up for course again, I'm glad to know I'm not getting cheated or shorted by some kind of watered down course.


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## P Kaye (28 Jan 2005)

Last night I was told that CAP-R is changing to 5 mods (total of 10 weeks).  For those who started CAP-R already, they can finish it under teh old system (of 3 mods).  For anyone who hasn't started CAP-R yet, we apparenlty have to do the 10 week version.


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## mdh (28 Jan 2005)

Hello PKaye,

Was this supposed to be a reg. force version of CAP Phase training? Or is there supposed to be another CAP-R stream for working folks like me who might have a touch of trouble getting a mere ten weeks off in succession? Thanks, mdh


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## P Kaye (28 Jan 2005)

I understand your concern... I'm also a working folk like you.
As of last week, I was under the beleif that I could do CAP-R in 5 weeks, and then do my engineer training in 8 weeks.  I had planned to do this over 3 summers.
The new system is a 10 week CAP, offered in 5 mods of 2 weeks, so working stiffs like us can do it over 2 or 3 summers.  My Engineer course has been increased from 8 weeks to 10 weeks.
I now have a total of 20 weeks of trainnig to do to get qualified, and it's now going to take me at least 4 years.


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## mdh (28 Jan 2005)

Thanks PKaye,

I appreciate the information - let me see, if the normal working guy gets about two weeks off (not unusual for more intense professions) to train per summer (and that's all he or she can get) that should take five years to get CAP-R out of the way.  I hate to ask what the MOC training has been increased to...


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## P Kaye (28 Jan 2005)

I'm fortunate in that I work for the Federal government, which is encouraged to give time off for reservists.
As for my wife giving me time off, on the other hand... lol.


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## mdh (28 Jan 2005)

At least you have the courage to ask,   ;D

In all seriousness though this might have implications for folks who dont' have that much flexibility - might be a dealbreaker for me, but I'll have to see what I can do - once again thanks for the info PKaye and lol, mdh


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## Meridian (28 Jan 2005)

Wow.. if this is somethign that will stick around, it is definitely of interest to me.. how long is a REGF Cap course?

Im not a fan of not having equivalent training...


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## chaos75 (28 Jan 2005)

Its 10 wks, plus a week for admin/parade.


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## P Kaye (28 Jan 2005)

Something that will stick around???  Never.  It's a pendulum.  First they say "we have to be like the reg force... equivalent training!".  Like back in the RESO days.  Then they realise everyone is quitting, and they aren't able to fill all the reserve officer positions.  So the pendulum swings.  Shorter courses, all MODed, like the system for the last couple of years.  Now the pendulum is swinging back.
I actually liked the system that has existed for the past few years:
1) we don't need to be as highly trained as the reg-force... we're RESERVISTS...  we augment and support the regular force... we should try to be everything it is.
2) under the old system reservists were trained to the same standard as the regular force; they just covered less things.  For example, a reserve platoon commander would be trained to the same standard on section attacks at RPC as a reg force pln cmdr would be.  But at RPC reservists learn ONLY dismounted stuff, where the regulars spend longer and get everything.  I think this is appropriate.  Reservists don't have to know everything the regulars do (that's why we have regulars).
The problem with the pendulum phenomemon is that guys going through at different times get vastly different training, and yet still get equivalent qualifications.  If I had taken CAP last year, it would have been HALF the length of what I have to do now.  So my buddies who did it last year will have HALF the field training I will have, but our qualifications will be the same.


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## Meridian (28 Jan 2005)

Noted.. Id prefer the longer training...  just to say that Ive done it.. and have that experience...  but I could be faced with the necessity of shorter training, given my FT employment.

The other issue is that when a CT to regs is assessed, are they not looked on as different quals? By that I mean, will you not have a lower or smaller delta to cover than them? (Assuming you ever went regs)?


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## mdh (30 Jan 2005)

On one hand I am happy to see that Phase training is back for the guys who want it and have been denied it.   But the old issues remain - unless there is some provision made for personnel with FT jobs who can't devote that amount of time then I suspect there will be a lot of empty officer slots in reserve units.   Now it may well be that a quiet decision has been made to encourage only the youngest demographic to participate since they are the ones most likely to complete the training (although they are notoriously mobile).   I don't have a problem with that as long as the chain of command   makes it clear that university students are preferred. I realize that there is always the spectre of age discrimination charges being levelled - but I suspect the CF could win the argument that combats arms officers must be below the age of 35 (like the US military) in order to justify the investment.


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## mdh (31 Jan 2005)

punt

Anyone else have some insights or additional news about this?, cheers, mdh


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## Highland Laddie (31 Jan 2005)

P Kaye said:
			
		

> Something that will stick around???   Never.   It's a pendulum.   First they say "we have to be like the reg force... equivalent training!".   Like back in the RESO days.   Then they realise everyone is quitting, and they aren't able to fill all the reserve officer positions.   So the pendulum swings.   Shorter courses, all MODed, like the system for the last couple of years.   Now the pendulum is swinging back.
> I actually liked the system that has existed for the past few years:
> 1) we don't need to be as highly trained as the reg-force... we're RESERVISTS...   we augment and support the regular force... we should try to be everything it is.
> 2) under the old system reservists were trained to the same standard as the regular force; they just covered less things.   For example, a reserve platoon commander would be trained to the same standard on section attacks at RPC as a reg force pln cmdr would be.   But at RPC reservists learn ONLY dismounted stuff, where the regulars spend longer and get everything.   I think this is appropriate.   Reservists don't have to know everything the regulars do (that's why we have regulars).
> The problem with the pendulum phenomemon is that guys going through at different times get vastly different training, and yet still get equivalent qualifications.   If I had taken CAP last year, it would have been HALF the length of what I have to do now.   So my buddies who did it last year will have HALF the field training I will have, but our qualifications will be the same.



A couple points in regards to your post, coming from a Reserve Infantry Captain who went through the old combined Phase system, and has watched the 'new' CAP(R) and RPC system come into play:

1) As a Reserve Officer, you DO need to know the same material and level of knowledge as the Reg Force. Why? Because Reserve Officers are serving overseas, and facing many of the same challenges, tactical scenarios, and OPFOR as the Regs. Do you think that Reg Os need to know how to operate in a "three block war", but Reserve Os don't? To OPFOR group "X" all they see is green. 5.56mm incoming does not discriminate between Regs and Reserves. 

2) Under the old system, Regs and Reserves did cover the same things. My Phase training was all combined platoons, ie Regs and Reserves all together, training and being held to the same standard. I covered the same material in the same depth and repetition as my fellow candidates who are now PPCLI, RCR, and Vandoo. The Regs also covered mech in Phase IV, which was beyond Phase III (which RPC supposedly replaced). Phase IV was mechanized, and with few exceptions, Reservists only got on it if they were going overseas. That is changed somewhat. Reserve Platoon Commanders don't normally need to be fully trained on the LAV to the level of the Regs, but they should still understand the basic concepts and tactics of their employment, and be more fully trained prior to deployment overseas if they are going to be using them. That's also why work up training for ROTOs are beginning to have more training for Reservist Os prior to the troops arriving for work-up training.

3) The RESO system was not banished because all the Reserve officers were quiting. This is plain false. The system was changed for a variety of reasons, but not that one. I'll let someone higher on the chain with more insight explain in greater detail the rationale for the changes. One of the main reasons I am aware of was that many pers could not go to RESO Phase for two entire summers due to other commitments, and the alternative MITCIP program had many faults. CAP / RPC was supposed to have the modularized approach of MITCIP, while providing the material covered in the RESO Phase system. Ironically from what I have seen many of the same pers would would normally not be able to attend a full time summer RESO Phase style course are the same pers who could not attend a CAP / RPC style course. Thus the net gain from this approach (IMO) is limited.

4) CAP(R) and RPC courses are being changed for a variety of reasons. Largely, better training is needed, and the current system is not fitting the bill (IMO). I have had serious reservations about the CAP / RPC course system, and its obvious that many of the Junior Os I have met who went through the courses did NOT have the same level of training as the old RESO Phase II / III system. I have heard similar opinions from many other qualified pers in the Reserves AND Regs. CAP / RPC grads seem to be somewere between the old Phase and MITCIP programs, with individual exceptions.

5) As for having to train longer than your peers that went through last year....don't you think you owe it to your troops to be as well trained as possible? It's your job to be as well trained and tactically sound as possible, and the troops should not have to settle for anything less. That's your job and obligation as an officer to your troops: be the best leader you can be, be professionally competent, and constantly improve yourself. That does not differ if you are a Reg O or Reserve O. If it costs candidates such as yourself a couple weeks extra to implement a better training system and be better leaders for our troops, so be it.

Have some perspective in your comments, and try to get some insight from experienced pers before 'flaming and complaining' about a system that you know relatively little about. The current system has problems, and needs to be fixed. We owe it to our future officers and particularly the troops they will have the honour and duty to command to make sure the training is the best we can provide.

Rant button off. Shot out.


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## jmackenzie_15 (31 Jan 2005)

Why? Because Reserve Officers are serving overseas, and facing many of the same challenges, tactical scenarios, and OPFOR as the Regs. Do you think that Reg Os need to know how to operate in a "three block war", but Reserve Os don't? To OPFOR group "X" all they see is green. 5.56mm incoming does not discriminate between Regs and Reserves. 


So are NCMs...


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## Highland Laddie (1 Feb 2005)

jmackenzie_15 said:
			
		

> Why? Because Reserve Officers are serving overseas, and facing many of the same challenges, tactical scenarios, and OPFOR as the Regs. Do you think that Reg Os need to know how to operate in a "three block war", but Reserve Os don't? To OPFOR group "X" all they see is green. 5.56mm incoming does not discriminate between Regs and Reserves.
> 
> 
> So are NCMs...



How right you are. NCMs as well. I only referred to Os because of the thread and topic. ALL pers, Reg & Reserve, regardless of rank, must be trained to an appropriate level. OPFOR does not discriminate.


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## mdh (3 Feb 2005)

Highland Laddie,

Although I will let PKaye speak for himself on this, I do think you're being a touch unfair. The vast majority of the officers I have met in the reserves want to be the most professional they can be, and they want to learn as much as they can. But that's always the Platonic Ideal in the reserve world (and given your considerable experience you know what I mean).   

Job pressures are very real, family pressures are very real, and they can't easily be dismissed.   

I know that some people will argue here that you should just quit if you can't go all the way, but I think there needs to be a happy medium (especially given the precarious manpower levels in so many units) so that guys with jobs can make a significant contribution. my two cents, cheers, mdh


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## P Kaye (4 Feb 2005)

I agree, mdh.  
I once read the financial figures on the costs of running reserve units compared with reg force units.  The reserves cost a small fraction.  So a good argument can me made that the reserves is a very good place for defense spending to be invested.  You get a lot of bang for your buck.
BUT... mdh is right... the reserves simply cannot be everything the reg force is.  It's not our full-time job.  If I could dedicate 40+ hours per week to being a soldier, OF COURSE I'd be a better soldier than I am.  But being a soldier is not my day-job, and so I don't have that luxury.
If the Reserves start demanding that its members take the same training and meet all the same requirements as the reg force, we're quite simply not going to have enough qualified reservists, and we won't be able to support as large a reserve system.  
The plain fact is the CF needs more soldiers, and the reserves is a very cost-effective place to get them.
As for lower training creating dangerous situations on ops... how far do you take that??  I mean, in an ideal world, every soldier in the CF would have JTF-2 equivalent training, be able to run 50 km, do 40 pushups, etc.  Every soldier would know how to operate, assemble, and repair EVERY type of weapon owned by the CF, blindfolded.  Every man in every trade would know how to do the job of several other related trades, in detail.  This would be the safest army.  But how big an army are we going to be able to have if we make those demands?  Very small.  Reservists can still peform a very useful function in the defense world, without having to have ALL the expertise of a full-time soldier.  
I always envisioned the Reserves as being there to SUPPORT the reg-force... but that everyone should acknowledge that the regs are the experts.  We reservists are there to provide assistance, but on ops we have to listen to the experts in the regs, and learn from them.


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## higgs (5 Apr 2005)

If I have received this info, then most other interested parties have as well by this time. However, for those more out of the loop than I, it appears that yes, reservists are now to take CAP, but no that does not mean all ten weeks (five mods). 

From the info passed to me, all five mods of Reg Force CAP are now available to reservists (not only summer serials, but I do not know if only the summer serials are modular), but only the first three mods are required. So, limted availability officers (those with job/family considerations) can still be CAP(R)-equivalent qualified, at Reg F standards, and able to progress to MOC training. 

I would be interested to find out if the delta training (RSO quals, instructional technique, etc) from the remaining optional mods could be signed-off at unit/brigade level over time in order to achieve the full CAP qualification.


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## Redeye (6 Apr 2005)

As of the latest, there is going to be no more "delta".  New entrants do the Regular Force CAP - either all at once if they have unlimited availability, or in five modules if they have limited availability.  The modules run consecutively in Gagetown this summer with the same timings as the unmodularized CAP.  Those who are part-way through the modular CAP(R) can continue by that standard and need the "delta" course to be Reg F qualified, but the three-module CAP(R) is no longer.  Out-of-sequence course qualifications are also cancelled.

That all said, according to my Bde's Ops WO, there are plans afoot to decentralize some modules from CTC so that they can be done in local unit lines or Battle Schools, but those plans aren't done yet.

So it's off to Gagetown for me May 30!



			
				higgs said:
			
		

> If I have received this info, then most other interested parties have as well by this time. However, for those more out of the loop than I, it appears that yes, reservists are now to take CAP, but no that does not mean all ten weeks (five mods).
> 
> From the info passed to me, all five mods of Reg Force CAP are now available to reservists (not only summer serials, but I do not know if only the summer serials are modular), but only the first three mods are required. So, limted availability officers (those with job/family considerations) can still be CAP(R)-equivalent qualified, at Reg F standards, and able to progress to MOC training.
> 
> I would be interested to find out if the delta training (RSO quals, instructional technique, etc) from the remaining optional mods could be signed-off at unit/brigade level over time in order to achieve the full CAP qualification.


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## mdh (6 Apr 2005)

Redeye,

If I'm reading you correctly then, there is no longer any three module (of two weeks each) CAP (R) - it's now five modules, period, to qualify for further MOC training - and that's the only option at this point? In other words if you have limited availability, say only two weeks or four weeks at a time, it would take you much longer to qualify under the current revamped system?


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## Redeye (6 Apr 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> Redeye,
> 
> If I'm reading you correctly then, there is no longer any three module (of two weeks each) CAP (R) - it's now five modules, period, to qualify for further MOC training - and that's the only option at this point? In other words if you have limited availability, say only two weeks or four weeks at a time, it would take you much longer to qualify under the current revamped system?



My reading of the memo I received a copy of is that people who have already started in the three-module stream while be allowed to complete it - a limited number of line serials will be made available apparently.  Anyone who is not already underway in the modular CAP(R) now does CAP, a ten-week course which is running both modularized and non-modularized.  There are plans, as I mentioned, to download some of the modules to local units to allow them to be completed more expediently, but it certainly looks like it could take a long time to get qualified with limited availability.

I myself was injured during BIOC Ph II in 2001 (the last year that it existed before CAP and CAP(R) were introduced) fairly close to the end, but now I'm facing taking two summers to get that same qualification.  I negotiated six weeks off work from my employer to cover CAP(R) before all the changes, now it looks like I will just have mods 1-3 and not get done until next summer.  That's the way it goes I suppose.

Additionally, I think I mentioned - out of sequence modules are not being allowed this summer, but may be an option in the future to accommodate different availabilities.


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## Teridian (6 Apr 2005)

Hello, I am going to Gagetown to attend CAP at the end of June until August 16th(?). My friend who has more availability is going at the end of May. At the end of the summer what will we be qualified for?

I have been reading the forum for some time and have searched as much as I could in the archives, so your replies are appreciated, thanks.


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## chaos75 (6 Apr 2005)

Will the reserves doing the full 10week CAP be mixed in with the Reg Force pers, or in seperate platoons?


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## Redeye (6 Apr 2005)

chaos75 said:
			
		

> Will the reserves doing the full 10week CAP be mixed in with the Reg Force pers, or in seperate platoons?



The impression I get is that they will be integrated.


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