# Germans Debate Afghan Mission



## fraserdw (14 Mar 2008)

I see in Jane's Weekly one of the options the Germans are considering is 4000 more troops to expand into the current Italian AOR, so Italy would be freed up to move elsewhere.

"Ve vill defend Afghan Freedom to last Italian"


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## geo (14 Mar 2008)

That northern part of Afghanistan is getting awful crowded.


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## OldSolduer (14 Mar 2008)

Isn't it? What's to debate?


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## GAP (14 Mar 2008)

sounds like there's some political conscience's at work....sometimes reshuffling the deck leaves the joker on top...


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## geo (14 Mar 2008)

Let's face it.   The Gov't will try to meet it's committment to it's old NATO allies while meeting it's citzens expectations.  Given that these two ends are diametricaly opposites, there is no happy medium.... short of adding to their northern Afghanistann based troop committment - allowing other countries to move into the south.


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## vonGarvin (14 Mar 2008)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I see in Jane's Weekly one of the options the Germans are considering is 4000 more troops to expand into the current Italian AOR, so Italy would be freed up to move elsewhere.
> 
> "Ve vill defend Afghan Freedom to last Italian"


Well, it's good payoff for defending Italy to "the last German".

Oh, wait, that was against us. Nevermind...


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## fraserdw (14 Mar 2008)

The whole world has gone mad!  The Canadians are one of most viable NATO partners, the French won't surrender, the Germans won't invade, Russians are neutral and the Italians are on our side!

I MISS THE COLD WAR!!!!!


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## tomahawk6 (14 Mar 2008)

The Germans and Italians wont fight.The Russians still remember Afghanistan.The French soldier has had the rug pulled out from under them more times than anyone can count. The Canadians have learned to fight once again. Strange times.


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## Kirkhill (15 Mar 2008)

I wonder, given the collapse of Prodi's socialists, if somebody isn't thinking that Berlusconi might offer up some Carabinieri for Afghanistan.  IIRC it was Carabinieri that were deployed to Iraq and it probably makes a change from chasing Mafia/Cosa Nostra/Ndgrangata around the Italian hills.


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## TCBF (15 Mar 2008)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> The whole world has gone mad!  The Canadians are one of most viable NATO partners, the French won't surrender, the Germans won't invade, Russians are neutral and the Italians are on our side!
> 
> I MISS THE COLD WAR!!!!!



Heck, we all miss the cold war.  And Baden.  And Lahr.


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## fraserdw (15 Mar 2008)

It is kinda funny, the Germans used to be vocal on our lack of committment to defending their freedom from the Soviets.  How times change!


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## The Bread Guy (15 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Let's face it.   The Gov't will try to meet it's committment to it's old NATO allies while meeting it's citzens expectations.  Given that these two ends are diametricaly opposites, there is no happy medium....



Bang on, and I'll even take it a step further - in a politician's mind (if you assume their ultimate goal is to either gain power, or retain the power they already have), how many NATO members vote in elections?  And this isn't just a _German_ politician's tug-of-war, either...



			
				Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I wonder, given the collapse of Prodi's socialists, if somebody isn't thinking that Berlusconi might offer up some Carabinieri for Afghanistan.  IIRC it was Carabinieri that were deployed to Iraq and it probably makes a change from chasing Mafia/Cosa Nostra/Ndgrangata around the Italian hills.



According to the ITA army web page on OP Ancient Babylonia, they've had Army, naval air and Carabineiri assets in Iraq.  I'm headed over there (Italy, not IRQ) next week, so I'll get a better grip on public opinion, but I remember the last trip I took a few years ago when not a lot of people I spoke to were keen on continuing what (at least the ones I spoke to) they saw as the US's war.  

Also, the Carabinieri, although police, have been hard hit in IRQ, including this incident in late 2003 where 18 were killed (12 Carabinieri, 4 ITA Army, 2 ITA civvies) in one blast in Nasiriyah.


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## Kirkhill (16 Mar 2008)

Tony, just in case there was any confusion in my post, there was no intent to slight the Carabinieri.  I know they were hit hard in Iraq.

People regularly refer to Iraq and Afghanistan in terms of the violence and lawlessness and compare them to a perceived idyllic state.  I am constantly reminded how many parts of Europe have only a tenuous hold on "civility".  The Carabinieri seems to have a lot of experience in trying to keep the lid on things. I thought they might be a useful and welcome addition in Afghanistan.

Cheers, Chris.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Mar 2008)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Tony, just in case there was any confusion in my post, there was no intent to slight the Carabinieri.  I know they were hit hard in Iraq.



No worries, and ZERO such intent seen at all - just trying to set the "environmental stage" to give a tiny bit of a sense of what Italians are dealing with in the old country.  Again, I'll be interested to see what folks on the street have to say...



			
				Kirkhill said:
			
		

> People regularly refer to Iraq and Afghanistan in terms of the violence and lawlessness and compare them to a perceived idyllic state.  I am constantly reminded how many parts of Europe have only a tenuous hold on "civility".  The Carabinieri seems to have a lot of experience in trying to keep the lid on things. I thought they might be a useful and welcome addition in Afghanistan.



Interesting point re:  cranking up some paramilitary police presence in AFG - the Italians already have sorta-kinda paramilitary Treasury Police there helping build up (I presume) the border guards and/or financial cops.  

You also raise a good point re:  the Carabinieri are pretty busy these days dealing with organized crime, so it may be tougher to move them to AFG.


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Apr 2008)

Berlin's Canadian conundrum on the Hindu Kush
http://www.thelocal.de/11049/
Published: 2 Apr 08 15:15 CET


> The contentious eastward expansion of NATO isn’t the only issue clouding the transatlantic alliance’s summit in Romania this week. The Local’s Marc Young explores German reluctance to join the fighting in southern Afghanistan and the implications for Berlin’s foreign policy.
> 
> You know you’ve got a problem if even Canada is annoyed.
> 
> ...




Bundeswehr missions cost over €900 million in 2007
http://www.thelocal.de/11123/20080406/
Published: 6 Apr 08 13:48 CET


> Germany's foreign military engagements cost the country €910.7 million in 2007, a slight uptick from the year before.
> 
> According to an article in the Bild am Sonntag newspaper, Germany spent €16.7 million more in 2006 than the previous year, with most of the money going to support the country's participation in the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> ...


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## tomahawk6 (6 Apr 2008)

Its quite possible that the political debate is necessary if the German role is to expand to combat operations.


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## geo (8 Apr 2008)

well, if our parliament & the people as a whole have debated the issue of combat operations I can't begrudge the Germans their kick at the can.  Also, having gone thru some 50 years of partition East/West, the Germans have had to deal with a whole range of issues that we have never experienced.... 

At least they are still talking.... and not walking (away)


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## tomahawk6 (12 Apr 2008)

Either the Germans will pull out or they will be dragged into a more proactive policy if these attacks in their AO continue.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,547037,00.html

IS NORTHERN AFGHANISTAN BECOMING A POWDERKEG?

Violence in Bundeswehr Deployment Area Increases Dramatically

By Matthias Gebauer 

The slayings of six development aid workers and three attacks against the German military in four weeks underscore the "alarming developments" in Northern Afghanistan, warns the head of the German Army, the Bundeswehr. The area of German deployment once believed to be safe is turning into a powderkeg.

It was a dark Wednesday for the Bundeswehr in Afghanistan. First, a car laden with explosives managed to wedge its way between an armoured Wolf jeep and a Mungo truck near Kunduz at 6:35 p.m. Then the driver detonated a bomb. It was only by chance that nothing terrible happened in Esakhail that evening. Other than suffering from fear and shock, the Germans escaped uninjured. The Germany army, the Bundeswehr, though, knew the area had become dangerous. Indeed, just days before, at the end of March, an explosive device was detonated near a military convoy. 

Just two hours later, the next alarm bells began to ring. A reconnaissance patrol was driving a Fennek vehicle out of the camp at Kundus as the Germans were attacked with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The soldiers reacted to the attack, which set fire to a camouflage net on a vehicle, by firing back from their own cannon. The troops returned to the base after the incident and no German soldiers were injured.

"Neither Peaceful nor Stabile" 

"It's happened again," said one German officer, adding that the men had had tremendous luck.

The incidents illustrate the degree to which the security situation in northern Afghanistan has deteriorated in recent weeks, as winter has come to an end. Despite official statements, the region is "neither peaceful nor stabile," Bundeswehr General Inspector Wolfgang Schneiderhan told a closed-door meeting of the German parliament's defense committee, describing the current reality on the ground in northern Afghanistan. Nor did he hold back with his warnings that summer could get pretty hot there.

Schneiderhan told the defense experts of Germany's main political parties that the three attacks on the Bundeswehr had been "alarming developments" in the army's area of deployment in Afghanistan. With increasing violence in the north, he said, the soldiers are facing "new challenges." 

A Threat to Reconstruction 

But it's more than just the direct attacks against German troops that is raising the alarm bells inside the Bundeswehr's leadership ranks. Schneiderhan also provided details about attacks on civilians helping with reconstruction projects in the area. During the last four weeks, the general said, seven aid workers have been killed in three targeted attacks. 

Even if those actions aren't targeted at German soldiers, the still represent a threat to the success of their mission in the Hindu Kush -- after all, providing protection for those involved in efforts to rebuild the country is one of the concrete goals of the German deployment in Afghanistan. 

The attacks against aid workers have been merciless. First, an unknown assailant shot and killed an Afghan employee of a Dutch NGO in his car in the Balgh province north of Mazar e Sharif. Six days later armed men pulled four Afghanis out of their cars before shooting them in cold blod. One day later, in the province of Kunduz, the area where the Bundeswehr is deployed, an attack was perpetrated on an organization responsible for mine sweeping, and two Afghan helpers were murdered.

The intensified atmosphere is making soldiers and leaders in Bundeswehr alike nervous. And officers were deeply angered recently when a trade publication for defense issues published an aerial photo of the German military base at Mazar e Sharif that showed details like residential areas for soldiers and where the tanks are kept. 

The image, some felt, was little more than an invitation to the Taliban and other enemies to attack the base.


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## Kirkhill (12 Apr 2008)

Well the Taliban can "reinforce failure" by continuing to assault in the south and be met forcefully by the Canadians, Brits, Dutch, Danes, Romanians and Americans (including the Marines) or they can probe elsewhere for weakness and an opportunity to create an open and exploitable flank.

The South has a strong presence and none of the involved countries are going anywhere in the short term.  The Taliban have lost the short term political battle in those countries.  The more reticent countries might now find themselves subject to more pressure both inside Afghanistan and domestically.


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## geo (14 Apr 2008)

In many respects, having the TB move their operations further north they are forcing the Germans & the French to ramp up operations and make them realise that they have to do the same thing we are doing in our AOR.

Perfect timing IMHO


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