# SAR Response Under the Gun Again



## SeaKingTacco (4 Feb 2012)

> Military defends actions in search for dead Labrador teen
> Canadian Forces officials cite bad weather, presence of private helicopter
> CBC News Posted: Feb 4, 2012 10:41 AM NT Last Updated: Feb 4, 2012 10:28 AM NT
> 
> ...



I would point out that, having served for many years as a crew commander, I am intimately familiar with the rules concerning the operation of CF aircraft in all kinds of weather.  I have also conducted SAR operations in all sorts of conditions.  While the mouth-breathers in the comments section of CBC's website are beyond convincing, I can assure everyone here that all CF aircrew are mission focused and if we can find anyway of legally and more importantly safely launching, we will.  Clearly, in this case, there was no way of doing that.

Ultimately, mother nature always gets the final vote and no amount of technology will ever change that.


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## aesop081 (4 Feb 2012)

After a brief hiatus, It's open season on the military again boys & girls. Start getting used to it, we're not going to do anything right for while..........

Hang in there, keep doing what you're doing to the high standards you always have.


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## ballz (4 Feb 2012)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I can assure everyone here that all CF aircrew are mission focused and if we can find anyway of legally and more importantly safely launching, we will.



My first thought when reading about the controversy was of Sgt. Janick Gilbert. He made it pretty clear to me that the SAR teams were willing to do whatever it takes... the CBC readers forgot about him pretty quick.

I also wonder about the circumstances surrounding a 14 yr old being so far from home, alone, and unprepared.... no one seems to think his parents are somewhat responsible? If this happened in other parts of the country, I wonder if the parents would be facing criminal negligence charges...


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## Steve1987 (4 Feb 2012)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I would point out that, having served for many years as a crew commander, I am intimately familiar with the rules concerning the operation of CF aircraft in all kinds of weather.  I have also conducted SAR operations in all sorts of conditions.  While the mouth-breathers in the comments section of CBC's website are beyond convincing, I can assure everyone here that all CF aircrew are mission focused and if we can find anyway of legally and more importantly safely launching, we will.  Clearly, in this case, there was no way of doing that.



Anyway who suggests otherwise just clearly doesn't know what they are talking about.  I have confidence if the SAR crew could have done anything they would have, I'm sure the crews were itching to go.  If it's unsafe, there is no reason to cause MORE casualties in bad situation.

-Steve


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## ModlrMike (4 Feb 2012)

More to do with Pat Harris than anything else, methinks.


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## Zoomie (5 Feb 2012)

This topic is way too hot to address fully at the moment.  Needless to say,  MSM optics are at work here - big time.  Ignore the primary reason for this tragedy and blame the Government. 

When your cottage burns down in the middle of no-where, do you really think blaming the city fire department is the right idea - or maybe you should think about what initially caused the blaze and what could have prevented it?


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## ballz (5 Feb 2012)

*Family rejects military’s explanation for delay in search for boy*

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1126573--family-rejects-military-s-explanation-for-delay-in-search-for-boy



> MAKKOVIK, N.L.—The family of a 14-year-old boy whose body was found off the coast of Labrador says poor decisions were made in the search for him and the response to requests for help has to be improved to prevent future tragedies.
> 
> In a statement, the family says it doesn’t understand why a private helicopter was able to fly last Monday and join the search for Burton Winters but the military says the weather prevented them from deploying search and rescue aircraft.
> 
> ...



The emphasis is mine... my blood boiled when I read that from the family.

There's a lot of talk about how this could have been "prevented." They have a very different definition of "prevention" than me.


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## medicineman (5 Feb 2012)

Fact of the matter is, when confronted by reality, the vast majority of people will blame everything or everyone but the one that stares back a them in the mirror every day...it's human nature.  Some people will fall in behind them on this of course, but I'm sure you'll find there are quite a few people asking or at least thinking the same questions we are in this matter.

MM


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## Jarnhamar (5 Feb 2012)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I would point out that, having served for many years as a crew commander, I am intimately familiar with the rules concerning the operation of CF aircraft in all kinds of weather.  I have also conducted SAR operations in all sorts of conditions.  While the mouth-breathers in the comments section of CBC's website are beyond convincing, *I can assure everyone* here that all CF aircrew are mission focused and if we can find anyway of legally and more importantly safely launching, we will.



I'm sold.

I'm also sorry you and all our noble SARtechs and supporting staff are forced to hear these accusations.

I won't attack the family in response to their attack on the CF and I don't want to insult any parent who has lost a child.  I'll wait for all the details to come out but my first reaction to this statement



> “This is the time for someone to step up and take responsibility in poor decision making to ensure that this doesn’t happen to another innocent family.”


 involved me wondering the circumstances behind the *14 year old* being out there in the first place.

I'm reminded sadly of 12 year old kids (or younger) getting killed operating ATVs and Skidoos with warnings all over them not to be operated by anyone under 16.


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## OldSolduer (5 Feb 2012)

ah the mainstream media - undermining the CF since PET took power!


What a bunch of selve serving ....so and so's


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## TN2IC (5 Feb 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> involved me wondering the circumstances behind the *14 year old* being out there in the first place.



Natural Selection. Harsh truth.

Regards,
TN


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## OldSolduer (5 Feb 2012)

I think part of the problem is that we, as an institution, do a very poor job when it comes to explaining our job(s).

We tend to be reactive and don't come off all that well on camera. We can explain the weather etc til the cows come home, but who's going to listen?


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## Zoomie (5 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I think part of the problem is that we, as an institution, do a very poor job when it comes to explaining our job(s).


We also tend to have an irrational fear/trepidation at being forthwith with information.  Why can't we just be open, clear and <in some cases> harsh, when it comes to dealing with the public?  We all know the answer to that...


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## SeaKingTacco (5 Feb 2012)

I specifically recall 444 Sqn from Goose Bay conducting a SAR launch into questionable conditions about 10 years ago that resulted in the total loss of the aircraft and nearly killed the crew.

When I was training to become a Maritime Helicopter Crew Commander, a very wise old Major told me something-

 "By all means, do everything that you can to launch.  But just remember, you are not contributing much to the search effort if you, too, end up sitting in a life raft at the datum."

In other words, a SAR launch does not suddenly make you magic and suspend National Defence Flying Orders, the laws of aerodynamics or make you immune to weather.

In my own experience, I have refused a medevac launch when holding SAR standby (the Cormorants were broken).  In one case, I knew it involved a pregnant woman in distress that needed to get to a better hospital.  We didn't go because I could not figure out a way of: a) not dying on the way to her location b) not killing her on the way to the hospital.  And believe me, I agonized over that one.

The worst thing that could happen from all of this is that SAR crews find themselves under perceived pressure to launch, no matter what.  All that will result in is dead crews, wrecked airplanes and nobody getting rescued.


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## Strike (5 Feb 2012)

> In other words, a SAR launch does not suddenly make you magic and suspend National Defence Flying Orders, the laws of aerodynamics or make you immune to weather.



I'm going to remember that one.  Now, if we could get a spokesperson to say that...


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## medicineman (6 Feb 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> I'm going to remember that one.  Now, if we could get a spokesperson to say that...



Sometimes we as a society have to be frank and blunt...and those who are members of the Armed Forces have to sometimes be blunt with their employers - the Canadian Government and the taxpayers - with what capabilities are real and what are imaginary.  We're so conditioned to things being sugar coated these days that nobody wants to say what needs to be said (and are constrained in saying it).

Kind of wondering too if there are some ghosts of SAR Box Top 22 at play here, since that rescue happened in some pretty hideous conditions.

MM


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## Scott (6 Feb 2012)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> "By all means, do everything that you can to launch.  But just remember, you are not contributing much to the search effort if you, too, end up sitting in a life raft at the datum."



Ding, ding, ding.

Also, putting yourself at risk for saveable lives is one thing, putting yourself at risk for unsaveable lives is quite another. Perhaps unrelated but it's one of those things I have always had pounded in to me. That and...


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## ballz (8 Feb 2012)

Rear Admiral Gardam's decision makes sense and I'm sure he didn't make it lightly.

That said, now I am left wondering why it was first said to be because the weather was not permissive...


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Feb 2012)

Good grief.  I did it again.  I let myself read the comments section.   :facepalm:

People have a right to be upset, but start with asking yourself why a minor was out on his own in the first place.

Its an aircraft people, if you discover something is wrong in pre-flight and its on the "no go" side of the house, you can't ignore it and fly.

This is not a new concept.  If your car has a flat when you go to drive to work, would you say "screw it" and go down the highway anyways??


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## Retired AF Guy (8 Feb 2012)

Just curious; In a scenario like this how many crew members/SAR Techs would there be the Cormorant?


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## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Good grief.  I did it again.  I let myself read the comments section.   :facepalm:


What is seen cannot be unseen....


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## OldSolduer (8 Feb 2012)

Why is it that doctors, lawyers, social welfare workers and many others are given a free pass when they make grievous errors? There are exceptions - occassionally you see people stripped of the privilege of practicing medicine or law. Rarely will you see a social worker held to account.
But when it comes to military search and rescue it seems everyone is an expert pilot, and SAR tech. Yet none are. 
It's like me, an infanteer making dumb comments in the F 35 thread.

 :facepalm:


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## Fiera (8 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Why is it that doctors, lawyers, social welfare workers and many others are given a free pass when they make grievous errors?



Because Doctors and Lawyers at least, I don't know about welfare workers, have a form of malpractice insurance that will pay out a ridiculous amount of money upon threat of being sued to have the entire issue swept under the table.


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## OldSolduer (8 Feb 2012)

Fiera said:
			
		

> Because Doctors and Lawyers at least, I don't know about welfare workers, have a form of malpractice insurance that will pay out a ridiculous amount of money upon threat of being sued to have the entire issue swept under the table.



Good point, thanks!


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## mariomike (8 Feb 2012)

> Why is it that doctors, lawyers, social welfare workers and many others are given a free pass when they make grievous errors? There are exceptions - occassionally you see people stripped of the privilege of practicing medicine or law.



Not everyone is given a free pass. 

Lawsuit payouts are not disclosed to the public.

The City of Toronto pays for a $5 million medical malpractice insurance policy for each paramedic. It covers you on-duty, and off-duty.

"Unlike police, doctors, lawyers and others, complaints against emergency medical service staff are investigated internally and in secret. The service never announces the results or what is done to fix the problem."
Star Aug 13 2011


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## The Bread Guy (10 Feb 2012)

Protesters were out....





> Protesters on the coast of Labrador and in St. John's on Thursday evening called for improved military search and rescue services as a result of the military's response to the search for Burton Winters .... In St. John's, dozens of protesters gathered on Confederation Hill, singing in his honour and holding up protest signs. "We understand that Burton will never come home," choked a teary Stephanie Fost, Winters' aunt. "However we would like for future Burtons to have the fighting chance to return home to their loving friends and family." Protests were also held Thursday night in Nain and Natuashish ....



.... and the Minister speaks in the House:





> .... A full investigation has now been completed. We have a much greater understanding of the timeline and the way that these tragic events unfolded. Both the RCMP and Canadian Forces officials have explained some of these circumstances. There are improvements that can be made perhaps in protocol and we are in a constant state of update and improvement .... Our country has the largest search and rescue territory on the planet. We have dedicated SAR techs who do their best each and every time. As officials said yesterday and the member has just repeated, the weather in Makkovik was a factor when the first call came in. It impacted on officials' decisions as to when to dispatch aircraft. As explained by Admiral Gardam yesterday, the weather was an issue. The first call came 20 hours after this young man had apparently left his home. A second call came some 51 hours later.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Feb 2012)

Did they discover what the teenager was doing out there?


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## Retired AF Guy (11 Feb 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Did they discover what the teenager was doing out there?






> The 14-year-old died last week after becoming lost on the ice near his home in Makkovick, Labrador while heading to his grandmother’s house on snowmobile.


  The Western Star 



> RCMP said Winters had walked for 19 kilometres through rough snow and jagged ice, after he abandoned his snowmobile. He was about seven kilometres from shore, although police said his tracks showed that the path was following the shoreline. His snowmobile was found about 11.5 kilometres outside Makkovik.


  CBC


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Feb 2012)

Call-back protocol for searches to be reviewed: MacKay
CBC News Posted: Feb 13, 2012 5:06 PM NT Last Updated: Feb 13, 2012 5:02 PM NT







Defence Minister Peter MacKay wants search and rescue call-back protocols revisited. (CBC)


Federal Defence Minister Peter MacKay has asked for a review of the search and rescue protocol that puts the responsibility on searchers to call the military back for help.

MacKay was responding to questions from reporters in Halifax Monday about the search for Labrador teen Burton Winters, who died recently near Makkovik.

The military has faced criticism over its role in the search.





Burton Winters, shown in a photo posted to a Facebook tribute page, died off the coast of Labrador. (Facebook)

"This wasn’t a matter of the military not responding," MacKay said. "There is a protocol that was followed. Now that protocol, in fact, between RCMP, ground search, the province, and in this case the military, may have to be reviewed. And that’s what I have committed to Premier (Kathy) Dunderdale, is that we will look at improving this protocol, looking at perhaps the call-back procedure.”

When the military was initially called the morning after Winters was reported missing, weather and then mechanical problems kept two Griffon helicopters in Goose Bay grounded. Civilian choppers joined the search.

Under the current protocol, the onus then reverts to the searchers to call the military a second time.

In the Winters case, that didn’t happen until more than 48 hours after the boy was reported missing.

Winters was found dead on the ice a day after that. He had walked 19 kilometres from his abandoned snowmobile before succumbing.

MacKay said he spoke to Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Kathy Dunderdale over the weekend, and pledged to look at search protocols “in terms of the onus being on the caller.”

Premier's concerns
Dunderdale recently told CBC News she wants more answers about what happened in the Winters case.

“People in this province have an expectation and a right to these kind of services, and the way they were provided in this case was not satisfactory," the premier said.

A series of protests in St. John's and in several Labrador communities have called for improved military search and rescue services.


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## aesop081 (13 Feb 2012)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> A series of protests in St. John's and in several Labrador communities have called for improved military search and rescue services.



Insert:

"5 Wing Goose bay to remain open despite being a pointless drain of DND resources".

With cuts at DND a reality, i'm sure the future of that POS base will come up. This incident will be used as ammo.


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## ballz (13 Feb 2012)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> The Western Star



That one is an opinion piece, and being from the west coast of Newfoundland I don't trust many of the people that write their opinions into the Western Star to be credible sources, and the CBC one doesn't say what he was doing (well at least not the part you quoted).

That was a long way from home out on a snowmobile, alone and not equipped (for anybody, let alone a 14 year old) and I still think the parents owe just as many answers as the Canadian Forces or DND.


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## Stoker (13 Feb 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> That one is an opinion piece, and being from the west coast of Newfoundland I don't trust many of the people that write their opinions into the Western Star to be credible sources, and the CBC one doesn't say what he was doing (well at least not the part you quoted).
> 
> That was a long way from home out on a snowmobile, alone and not equipped (for anybody, let alone a 14 year old) and I still think the parents owe just as many answers as the Canadian Forces or DND.



The kid was a Junior Canadian Ranger who just got back from a exercise that day, I doubt if he was dressed or prepared for it though.


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## ballz (13 Feb 2012)

Here's the DND report which I am reading now http://www.cbc.ca/news/pdf/investigation-into-makkovik-incident-bilingual-version.pdf

A few interesting things so far,

" He had last been seen approximately 5 ½ hours earlier (at 1330hrs AST 29 Jan 12) 
departing his Grandmother’s house, alone and on snowmobile.  The teenager 
was a Junior Canadian Ranger (JCR) and had been involved in a JCR outing 
earlier in the day, but he had returned from the outing prior to being reported 
missing."

And to do with the weather:

"Reports from the Patrol 2I/C during the day of Mon 30 Jan indicated that local weather conditions were poor and that aircraft were not able to conduct the search."

"FES-NL requested CF assistance in a ‘missing persons’ case to conduct an air search.  This request to the JRCC came after FES-NL had first tried to secure civil aviation assets; however, *the civil assets reported they were unable to assist due to weather conditions* in Makkovik."


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## SeaKingTacco (13 Feb 2012)

Very interesting read.


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## M Feetham (5 Mar 2012)

I feel bad for the kid and his family. Why he was out there alone we will never know. I do know and i believe it 100% that the SAR Techs would have done whatever was necessary to help that young man. Unfortuneatley civilians only see a dead 14 yr old boy. They don't understand about CF flight regulations, nor do they care to learn. Like someone else already said, it is human nature to look for someone to blame. As is most often the case when the CF is involved, it gets laid at our feet. One thing about that though, we are tough, we can take it. We do our jobs to the best of our abilities, as long as we can remember that then the rest doesn't matter. 
Ready Aye Ready


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## The Bread Guy (8 Mar 2012)

Highlights mine....


> At the request of the Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Peter MacKay, the Canadian Forces conducted a review of Canadian Forces protocols with regards to Ground Search and Rescue.  The legal authority for Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR), including the response for missing or lost persons, belongs to provincial and territorial governments, and as such, the Canadian Forces reviewed its protocols in consultation with partner agencies.  The review is now complete and *the Department of National Defence has amended the protocol for its participation in support of Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR) operations. The amended protocol provides an additional layer of diligence, with all parties agreeing to implement a military feedback mechanism, to increase direct communications between agencies, to enhance situational awareness and to improve communication between GSAR partners.*
> 
> (....)
> 
> ...


DND Info-machine, 8 Mar 12

Plain language?  This from the CBC:





> The Department of National Defence is changing how the military handles search and rescue calls following the tragic death of a teenage Labrador snowmobiler.
> 
> Military officials will no longer wait for a call back from anyone needing assistance in a search ....


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## Brew (23 Mar 2012)

Why do they insist on blaming this unfortunate incident solely on SAR?  There is very rarely anything in the news about what risks they take and people they are able to help.  What happened to this young man was very unfortunate and I can not imagine what he dealt with and what his family continues to deal with. I mean no disrespect here but why was he where he was alone and ill prepared at 14 y/o?  Why did it take so long for the initial call to SAR to be made?  If they needed SAR why didn't they call again?  With a missing 14 y/o I would expect someone to be ringing the phone off the hook.  From my understanding due to shear numbers the control center has to keep but close files in order to keep up with current situations.  Im sure there are improvements that can be made to SAR protocals for intiating a launch as nothing is perfect but I just see a witch hunt here after reading the document someone provided a link to here in another thread.


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## OldSolduer (23 Mar 2012)

Are we going to see a crucifixion? That is what the Fifth Estate does. 

Damn the facts!! Full speed ahead!!


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## RubberTree (23 Mar 2012)

I would expect nothing less of the CBC. Today's top story will get that ball rolling.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/03/22/nl-fifth-winters1-322.html


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## Robert0288 (23 Mar 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Are we going to see a crucifixion? That is what the Fifth Estate does.
> 
> Damn the facts!! Full speed ahead!!



Must not make iceberg/titanic joke in a SAR thread.....


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## OldSolduer (23 Mar 2012)

The facts don't matter to The Fifth Estate. 

The fact that the weather was crap where the kid was doesn't matter to The Fifth Estate.

They don't seem to "get it" that by launching a SAR mission in this particular case that the lives of aircrew and SAR techs may have been lost in the attempt, thereby causing the CF to launch another SAR mission or worse.

All that matters to The Fifth Estate is "DND Bad"


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Mar 2012)

Jim: We all know unfortunately that  The Fifth Estate is just yellow journalism masquerading as legitimate under the aura of the CBC.

My real question here is: Why are they picking on the Gardam's?  Yes, the Ontario based Dr. Gardam that is interviewed in their other big topic - hospital cleaning scandal!!! - is Admiral Gardam's brother !

I mean what are the chances of both brothers being seen in the same newscast of the National and then the same episode of the Fifth Estate? They must be picking on them.


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## OldSolduer (23 Mar 2012)

You know, maybe DND et al should stand up to The Fifth Estate. 

Tell the public the facts. Lay it on the line. 

Of course the tin foil hat crowd would cry "Conspiracy!! Cover up!!" :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Most Canadians are smart enough to figure things out for themselves.


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## The Bread Guy (23 Mar 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You know, maybe DND et al should stand up to The Fifth Estate.
> 
> Tell the public the facts. Lay it on the line.
> 
> ...


I know of people who've spent, say, 90 minutes speaking to reporters, and see/hear/read 12 seconds of that talk on mainstream media.  Even if all was laid on the line, no guarantees it would make it to media consumers' ears/eyes.  Sigh....


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## aesop081 (23 Mar 2012)

former user said:
			
		

> Did it again...started reading the CBC comments. :
> 
> My favourite so far his how the DND helicopter manager should be fired. Awesome.



My favorite reader comment was the one where some guy said that the Hercs were unavailable because of the CFB Greenwood winter carnival...........


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## Pat in Halifax (23 Mar 2012)

The first thing the Press should take into account is the fact that the CF (all of us) is a cross-section of society – we ALL make mistakes!! FFS people!!!. That said, I would love to see 1000 SAR Techs and corresponding aircraft in the north (I have a niece in Churchill) but we (meaning the voting public) have determined that this is not economically feasible.
I cannot imagine what the family of this young boy is going through and I sympathize with them but WE cannot be everywhere ALL the time as much as we wish we could. I recall my early days in the Navy. We had rescued a couple US swordfishermen south of Greenland. I don`t know if all of you know how you fish for swordfish but lets say that this 40-something year old man was not going to survive after taking a `hook` to the groin that came out on his left shoulder. All he kept saying was `Please don`t let me die alone`. Far from bragging, I was `voluntold` to stay by his side. After about 9 hours, the man passed. No, I didn’t save someone, but until my own last days, I will remember forever this 9 hours as if it happened yesterday – but there was NOTHING I could do- And, oh, the family didn`t sue the Navy.


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## blacktriangle (23 Mar 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Most Canadians are smart enough to figure things out for themselves.



A large percentage of Canadians couldn't even function if they didn't have access to Facebook or their Iphones. I think you give the average person too much credit. 

The average person doesn't really care to know about the CF/DND. Can you blame them? People have lives to live. They are busy. It's much easier to see a sound bite on the news and base your opinion off that. Unless that person has a specific interest in defence or similar topics, they probably have no idea what we really do. 

People don't care.


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## Teeps74 (23 Mar 2012)

Once upon a time, I used to trust the CBC as a credible news agency. Used to.

Their partisan antics, twisting of context, and constant witch hunts have worn on me. Next time a CBC reporter tries to engage me, he/she will get a "No thank you".


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## Rifleman62 (23 Mar 2012)

DND will NOT win anything. The media and the media party has already made up it's mind.

Why has DND not purchased replacement SAR aircraft after years of dicking around? Why buy 65 F-35's when you could purchase a 6500 SAR aircraft?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Mar 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Why has DND not purchased replacement SAR aircraft after years of dicking around? Why buy 65 F-35's when you could purchase a 6500 SAR aircraft?



Are you trying to provide ammunition to the enemy?

Shame on you!


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## blacktriangle (23 Mar 2012)

The military should trade it's tanks for snow plows. We can train tens of thousands of SAR Techs that can stand on every corner in case something happens. The Navy can then crash it's last few ships into the docks and carry on drinking. 

Who's with me?


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Mar 2012)

I've debated this a few times and say that first of all, this is a very unfortunate and sad event.  No one would disagree to this.

My question has been to what level do his parents find themselves responsible?  Regardless of his Junior Ranger experience, he was a minor, unsupervised, alone without the proper gear "in the middle of nowhere".

I don't go 'into the bush' anywhere without being able to spend 1 night, even places I've hiked many times.  Even during summertime, in NS.  As sad as it may be, the "swiss cheese" started long before this poor 14 year old boy left home.

Is the Fifth Estate also going to ask the parents, other agencies involved (civie-SAR) "what could YOU have done better?".   If not, then it will stand, IMO, as the witch-hunt "we need to point a finger at someone" story it is seemingly starting off as.  

Regardless of all that crap, a 14 year old boy's life was cut short, and I think all parties involved should be able to look at their part and ask "what could we have done better or different" in an effort to make sure it doesn't happen again.  But that should happen without the 'witchhunt'.  

 :2c:


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## blacktriangle (23 Mar 2012)

Excellent post, EITS.


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## Teeps74 (23 Mar 2012)

Hear hear! Well said EITS! Heaven forbid that we are all held accountable for our actions.


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## ballz (23 Mar 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My question has been to what level do his parents find themselves responsible?  Regardless of his Junior Ranger experience, he was a minor, unsupervised, alone without the proper gear "in the middle of nowhere".
> 
> I don't go 'into the bush' anywhere without being able to spend 1 night, even places I've hiked many times.  Even during summertime, in NS.  As sad as it may be, the "swiss cheese" started long before this poor 14 year old boy left home.



I'm won't beat around the bush with the race/indian thing. IMO, if this were a white kid, with white parents, in the rest of Canada, the parents would probably be charged and convicted with some form of criminal negligence, and they'd have probably earned it. That kid was still 10km from home by the time his machine got stuck (don't know how far the journey actually was)... Just how far out into the middle of nowhere, in one of the most extreme environments on the planet, does a First Nations kid have to go alone and unprepared, before it's unacceptable? 

Some of the bleeding hearts out there will chastise you (us) for even suggesting that the parents could have prevented this though.

You're 100% right about the swiss cheese, as John 'Lofty' Wiseman says, survival situations don't happen because of one mistake, they happen because of a chain of mistakes, and if one of those mistakes wasn't made (aka bringing a cell phone / radio or having a tire repair kit, etc) then the chain is broken and a survival situation never happens.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Is the Fifth Estate also going to ask the parents, other agencies involved (civie-SAR) "what could YOU have done better?".   If not, then it will stand, IMO, as the witch-hunt "we need to point a finger at someone" story it is seemingly starting off as.



If I can stomach watching the whole thing I'll let you know. Chances are though, judging by the preview I saw, I won't be able to. It had witch-hunt written all over it.


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## OldSolduer (23 Mar 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My question has been to what level do his parents find themselves responsible?  Regardless of his Junior Ranger experience, he was a minor, unsupervised, alone without the proper gear "in the middle of nowhere".
> 
> :2c:



They should be held accountable for allowing a 14 year old operate a snowmobile. IIRC, the law here in Manitoba is 16 with a license to operate a ATV or snowmobile. I am not sure of the law in Newfoundland.

I was not aware this boy was aboriginal.


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## Jimmy_D (23 Mar 2012)

For ATV in Atlantic Provinces. Age to operate is 16, anything under must be on own property with Adult supervision. Not sure on licensing I know Nova Scotia you need a course now luckily I'm Grandfathered and don't need one.


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## ballz (23 Mar 2012)

In NL you're allowed to drive a snowmobile alone at 13 and up, according to #10 and #11 here

http://www.nlsf.org/legal.html

That is consistent to the other things I've read as well.


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## Jimmy_D (23 Mar 2012)

Government Home  Search  Sitemap  Contact Us   




NLIS 1
May 17, 2005
(Government Services)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Government introduces safety measures for ATVs

After consulting with ATV user groups and health professionals on measures to improve safety around the use of ATVs, Government Services Minister Dianne Whalen announced today that government is increasing the minimum age to operate an adult-sized ATV in the province to 16 years in an attempt to reduce the number of injuries involving children and prevent the loss of life.



More at link:  http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2005/gs/0517n01.htm


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> That kid was still 10km from home by the time his machine got stuck (don't know how far the journey actually was)... Just how far out into the middle of nowhere, in one of the most extreme environments on the planet, does a kid have to go alone and unprepared, before it's unacceptable?



I amended the quote slightly to keep it to what I personally see as the most relevant part of the issue, IMO.  When I read thru the info on it I've seen, which granted isn't very much compared to what is likely out there, the word 'complacency' comes to my mind.  How many times has this youngster ventured out on his own, to go to his grandparents place on ski-do alone?  If it was frequently/often/routinely, I would say his entire immediate family AND the boy himself 'got used to it'.  You, thru repetition of action with no adverse consequences, start to get complacent.  The 'swiss cheese' starts and a series of very unfortunate events line up the way no one wants them to.  The *real* dangers become routine, and lose the attention they deserve.

My wife sometimes used to laugh at me for what kit I would take with me on a summer's day hike on a coastal part of NS.  Or some place we'd been before.  Then, a 19 year old singer was killed on the Skyline Trail in CB.  Not so much laughing.  I go prepared not only for OUR welfare, but also for the welfare of the person/people we might happen across who DON'T know any better and have gotten into a situation.

"Its better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it".  



> Some of the bleeding hearts out there will chastise you (us) for even suggesting that the parents could have prevented this though.



Ya, thats expected in the way of todays society in this great country we call Canada.  

I understand the loved ones of the dead young boy to react emtionally, to blame "anyone!  whoever!" in their grief...The Fifth Estate, if they are going to tell the story, _should_ be professional enough to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".   

Unfortunately, 'truth' doesn't always get people to watch a broadcast...


----------



## ballz (23 Mar 2012)

I'm pretty sure snowmobiles don't fit the definition of an ATV (All Terrain Vehicle)... under legislation, they are referred to as "Motorized Snow Vehicles."

http://assembly.nl.ca/Legislation/sr/Regulations/rc961163.htm#8_
"Age of operators
        8. (1) For the purpose of paragraph 21(1)(l) of the Act
*             (a)  a person under the age of 13 years shall not drive a motorized snow vehicle; and
             (b)  no one shall cause or permit a person under the age of 13 years to drive a motorized snow vehicle,
unless the person is accompanied by another person who is 19 years of age or older.
             (2)  A person under the age of 16 years shall not operate an all-terrain vehicle in the province.*
             (3)  Subsection (2) shall not apply to a person who has attained the age of 14 years and is operating an all-terrain vehicle having an engine size of 90cc or less.
             (4)  A person who operates an all-terrain vehicle under subsection (3) shall not operate that vehicle unless he or she is accompanied and supervised by a person who is 19 years of age or older.
             (5)  For the purposes of this section an operator of a vehicle is accompanied and supervised when the other person has visual and voice communication with the operator."


----------



## Edward Campbell (23 Mar 2012)

The life blood of the media is controversy - _man bites dog_ and _if it bleeds, it leads_ - and if there is insufficient controversy they, the (most?) journalists, will manufacture it. The CBC is not above twisting the facts to make a _'better'_, more controversial story and what could be better than the big, bad, cold hearted CF versus a small boy from a poor, first nations family?

There's no news here - the CBC is filling up the dead air between the advertisements with fictional drama. It's called _'infotainment'_ and Canadians lap it up.


----------



## Jimmy_D (23 Mar 2012)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure snowmobiles don't fit the definition of an ATV (All Terrain Vehicle)... under legislation, they are referred to as "Motorized Snow Vehicles."
> 
> http://assembly.nl.ca/Legislation/sr/Regulations/rc961163.htm#8_
> "Age of operators
> ...



Edit: Removed Defination of term Act


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Mar 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The life blood of the media is controversy - _man bites dog_ and _if it bleeds, it leads_ - and if there is insufficient controversy they, the (most?) journalists, will manufacture it. The CBC is not above twisting the facts to make a _'better'_, more controversial story and what could be better than the big, bad, cold hearted CF versus a small boy from a poor, first nations family?
> 
> There's no news here - the CBC is filling up the dead air between the advertisements with fictional drama. It's called _'infotainment'_ and Canadians lap it up.



I recall a piece that the Fifth Mistake estate did on The Canadian Airborne Regiment in Cyprus. They attempted to paint the CF contribution there as a paid holiday with numerous disciplinary problems. They interviewed the RSM - who stated that disicplinary issues were minimal. The interviewer (can't remember who it was) refused to beleive him.


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## ballz (23 Mar 2012)

Jimmy_D said:
			
		

> 2. In these regulations
> 
> (a)  "Act" means the Motorized Snow Vehicles and All-Terrain Vehicles Act ;
> 
> So there for same law applies that until the age of 16 the operator may not operate a machine with an engine size larger than 90cc and must have an Adult of age 19y/o or older to supervise.



No. All it is saying in the part you quoted is that for the rest of the bill, it's not going to say "the Motorized Snow Vehicles and All-Terrain Vehicles Act," instead it's just going to say "the Act."

The "Motorized Snow Vehicles and All-Terrain Vehicles Act" clearly makes a black and white distinction between Motorized Snow Vehicles and All-Terrain Vehicles, and it makes it pretty clear when it outlines two distinct ages for the two different types of vehicles. I've made it even easier for you, I made it a bolded yellow and red distinction. You can continue to believe whatever you want because I'm not going to entertain this sideshow, I am sure the rest of Army.ca has figured it out by now.


----------



## Jimmy_D (23 Mar 2012)

My apologies. As I see the differences you are refering to.


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## CountDC (23 Mar 2012)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> The military should trade it's tanks for snow plows. We can train tens of thousands of SAR Techs that can stand on every corner in case something happens. *The Navy can then crash it's last few ships into the docks and carry on drinking. * Who's with me?



ME!!! ;D


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## fraserdw (23 Mar 2012)

Just watched the 5th Estate, I felt the program was very well done.  The young man had dropped his cousin off at his Grandparents and was returning on a known trail when he became lost due to possibly due to visibility.  He left the trail about 5km from town where the trail makes a u turn and heads toward town, He continued straight toward open ocean.  Interestingly, ground search found where he went wrong but were not able to follow due to darkness and thin ice section they could not see at night.  By the time his machine got stuck, he was 10km from home and then walked another 19km before death all in the wrong direction.  It took 3 men to pull the machine out so self rescue was not possible.  I do not think he was irresponsible nor were his parents as has been suggested, he was doing something he did almost everyday.  On this day he was unlucky.  As for survival equipment, consider how often the average Canadian carries survival equipment when they go 5km on a known road.  There are indeed questions to be answered but that is up to our government to decide.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Mar 2012)

This goes to support my last post;  real dangers appear to become routine, people become complacent, and then bad things happen.

I can't agree that his parents aren't responsible, sorry, I just can't do it.  He was a minor.  Part of a parents job is to ensure the safety and well-being of their kids.  If a kid was killed on a city street who was 14, became lost and ended up in the wrong part of town and was gunned down by some druggie or crackhead, I'd feel the exact same.  Parents are responsible for the kids safety until they aren't kids anymore.

I'd never let a 14 year old of mine go off alone on a ski-do, without having basic kit to make it thru a 1 night scenario and FIRM direction to "stay put if something happens and we wil find you".  

Real dangers were ignored and unfortunately ended in the result of the loss of life.  I feel for the parents, but they have a part in this tragedy too.

 :2c:


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## Pat in Halifax (23 Mar 2012)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> The military should trade it's tanks for snow plows. We can train tens of thousands of SAR Techs that can stand on every corner in case something happens. The Navy can then crash it's last few ships into the docks and carry on drinking.
> 
> Who's with me?
> [/quote
> ...


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## Strike (24 Mar 2012)

Okay.  I just watched the episode and it was so completely one-sided.  I understand that it would have been difficult to find a CF person to comment on SAR protocols wrt weather and call-outs, but you can't tell me they couldn't find one former CF member to comment?  HELLO!  Half the pilots working the oil rigs are either former SAR or Sea King!

Where we're the questions regarding safety equipment?  How about the basic rescue caveat taught to all CF, including Rangers, to stay with your vehicle? Why wasn't that explored?  And the comment from the so-called expert that CF aircraft can fly in worse weather than other aircraft?  Not the last time I checked.  Our rules are the same as everyone else and put in place by the Government.  By the way, said expert is a Coast Guard employee (former?) who was working out of the RCC (?) St Johns.  We all know what's going on there.

There is no reflection from anyone in the town (at least that CBC showed) about what THEY can do to ensure this does not happen again.  Would that not be more constructive than sitting there complaining about an entity that they have no direct or immediate control over?

This whole episode just pisses me off and makes me realize why I hate CBC so much.  A member of my family was been personally attacked by this show several years ago and I see the haven't changed their methods at all.


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## blacktriangle (24 Mar 2012)

Don't feel bad, Strike. It's not like our tax dollars are funding the CBC...

Oh wait...  :facepalm:

The following should be CF SOP's WRT the CBC:

1) Avoid the CBC at all costs

2) When option 1 fails, for the love of god - don't read the comments.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Mar 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Where we're the questions regarding safety equipment?  How about the basic rescue caveat taught to all CF, including Rangers, to stay with your vehicle? Why wasn't that explored?



You are thinking the same way I am.  This was a series of errors that ended up with the death of the boy, and sadly to say, even include his own actions.  He wandered for 19km's.  He and his family didn't prepare for the real dangers.  Did he have a FRS/radio of any sorts? Compass?  Flare gun??  



> There is no reflection from anyone in the town (at least that CBC showed) about what THEY can do to ensure this does not happen again.  Would that not be more constructive than sitting there complaining about an entity that they have no direct or immediate control over?



Or the family, for that matter.  I was a kid once, and at the cottage in the summer, sure I could go out in the canoe alone.  I HAD to wear my PFD and I HAD to say in sight of the cottage.  If my father couldn't see me, he'd be in the speed boat finding me, and that would end my days on the water.  That was summertime in PEI....


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## RubberTree (24 Mar 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Okay.  I just watched the episode and it was so completely one-sided.  I understand that it would have been difficult to find a CF person to comment on SAR protocols wrt weather and call-outs, but you can't tell me they couldn't find one former CF member to comment?



I would suspect the CBC interviewed a number of CF members...both current and retired. Of course if what they had to say doesn't coincide with the message the CBC wanted to portray, it gets left on the cutting room floor. 
I too am getting pretty sick of the CBC and their constant anti-CF message. Just once I would appreciate hearing about something positive we do. Even a quick "the SAR teams were responsible for saving X number of lives last year" instead of the 5th estate's closing message about the number of "failed" rescues off the NL coast.


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## Strike (24 Mar 2012)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> ... Even a quick "the SAR teams were responsible for saving X number of lives last year" instead of the 5th estate's closing message about the number of "failed" rescues off the NL coast.



Exactly!  A stat is only good when the total story is given.  8 lives lost in 3 yrs I think?  But how many calls did they have to answer?  I suspect thousands are investigated each year.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Mar 2012)

Perhaps the CBC and Canadian public are forgetting the sacrifices made by CF SAR units and members.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/10/28/north-soldier-igloolik-death.html


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## The Bread Guy (24 Mar 2012)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> I would suspect the CBC interviewed a number of CF members...both current and retired. Of course if what they had to say doesn't coincide with the message the CBC wanted to portray, it gets left on the cutting room floor.


Possible, indeed - I'm going to guess that the only ones we would have heard a lot from in such a piece would be anyone who may have told them, "yeah, the rules should have changed long ago."


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## Celticgirl (24 Mar 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Exactly!  A stat is only good when the total story is given.  8 lives lost in 3 yrs I think?  But how many calls did they have to answer?  I suspect thousands are investigated each year.



Judging by the number of MTECs that come to the SORs with incident numbers attached, I am sure that you are not too far off!   8)


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## Edward Campbell (24 Mar 2012)

I need to repeat: _The Fifth Estate_ is *not* a 'news' or 'public affairs' programme. It is _infotainment_; _The Fifth Estate_ is to 'news' as Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_ are to history. The CBC is selling air time to sponsors ~ that's the business they are in and that is, exclusively, _The Fifth Estate's_ business. The truth is boring and sponsors don't pay to put boredom on the air so _The Fifth Estate_ provides something other than the truth, something that stirs up controversy. It's rubbish but this is Canada in 2012 and rubbish sells "ears and eyeballs" to sponsors.


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## Celticgirl (24 Mar 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I need to repeat: _The Fifth Estate_ is *not* a 'news' or 'public affairs' programme. It is _infotainment_; _The Fifth Estate_ is to 'news' as Tennyson's _Idylls of the King_ are to history. The CBC is selling air time to sponsors ~ that's the business they are in and that is, exclusively, _The Fifth Estate's_ business. The truth is boring and sponsors don't pay to put boredom on the air so _The Fifth Estate_ provides something other than the truth, something that stirs up controversy. It's rubbish but this is Canada in 2012 and rubbish sells "ears and eyeballs" to sponsors.



I'm really disappointed with the CBC...they are always looking for 'bad news' and putting a negative spin on what is otherwise positive.  Earlier this week, one of our SAR techs had a mishap with his parachute on a dive trg ex - both the regular chute and the back-up chute apparently launched at the same time and he had to cut one of them to get himself out of a dangerous spin.  However, the STL was p.o.'d because someone had witnessed the chute in freefall and the person called CBC to report that a SAR tech had DIED.  So the STL was forced to meet with CBC and do damage control because you know those camerapersons were out there in a New York minute ready to get the story of the dead SAR tech for the 5 o'clock news!

On the flip side, do they ever do a news piece on how hard the SAR techs train, how much time they spend away from home to do their jobs, how often they are injured (sometimes seriously), and the number people who are helped/saved by their courage and skill each year?   :

Sorry for the rant, but I've gotten to know a lot of these guys personally through my job, and I think they are first class heroes.  I wish the CBC would bark up a different tree.


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## Occam (24 Mar 2012)

former user said:
			
		

> It's online now.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/the_fifth_estate/1278707885/ID=2214820151



So are the links to the RCC log and to DND's response - see the buttons to the right of the webpage.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2011-2012/lostontheice/


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## Journeyman (24 Mar 2012)

...and yet I've _heard_ that the RCAF's SAR-related priority is to ban the SAR Techs' berets with DEUs.   :


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## Journeyman (24 Mar 2012)

:facepalm:  Uh, because SAR Techs _are_ different?


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Mar 2012)

Statement

Makkovik coordinated Search and Rescue efforts: context and perspective

NR - 00.0XX - March 24, 2012

Earlier today, the Commander of Canada Command, Lieutenant-General Walter Semianiw, in his capacity as senior military Commander for Search and Rescue, issued the following statement:

“I want to provide further context and perspective regarding the coordinated search and rescue efforts to locate Burton Winters, who went missing in a severe winter storm near Makkovik on the north coast of Labrador, this past February. 

Burton Winters’ death was a tragedy. We add our heartfelt condolences to those that have already been expressed. Burton Winters’ loss raised public awareness regarding the enumerable challenges that people who are involved with search and rescue in Canada frequently face when dealing with the harsh and unforgiving conditions of the North. 

The following information was made available to the public through the media during two news conferences held in Halifax, Nova Scotia, on February 4th and in St. John’s, Newfoundland, on February 8th, 2012. 

In Canada, Search and Rescue is a shared responsibility among federal, provincial/territorial and volunteer organizations, and there is an organizational distinction between the responsibility for ground Search and Rescue (SAR), and aeronautical and maritime SAR.  The Canadian Forces (CF) have the primary responsibility for the provision of aeronautical SAR services (search for downed aircraft) whereas the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) is responsible for maritime SAR services. The CF are also responsible for the effective operation of this coordinated aeronautical and maritime SAR system. Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR) in Canada is conducted under the legal authority of the individual provinces and territories. This authority is delegated for operational response to the police service of jurisdiction.

The Joint Rescue Coordination Centre (JRCC) Halifax first received a call from Fire and Emergency Services-Newfoundland and Labrador (FES NL) on 30 January 2012 about an ongoing ground search for a 14-year-old male who was reported missing on a snowmobile near Makkovik, Labrador. The ground search was being led by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), who has responsibility for GSAR in this area. The weather at Makkovik initially prevented FES NL contracted helicopters from participating in a search, prompting them to contact the JRCC Halifax in order to identify if other assets were available. 

The coordinator on duty at the JRCC Halifax followed established procedures. When the initial call came in for a CF aircraft to support the GSAR efforts, the JRCC Halifax made an assessment on the provision of CF support based on such considerations as weather, aircraft positioning, aircraft serviceability and the requirement to maintain the CF’s mandated Aeronautical and Maritime SAR response in the region. 

Based on all of these factors, the CF could not provide aeronautical support to the search at that juncture. As a result, FES NL then engaged contracted helicopters for the search, in accordance with normal GSAR protocols, as soon as the weather improved. On 31 January 2012, the JRCC Halifax received another request from FES NL for CF air support to do a search of the region in support of GSAR, and a CH-146 Griffon helicopter was tasked to support the ground search accordingly. 

Historically, the Canadian federal aeronautical and maritime SAR system has responded to more than 9,000 cases annually, tasking CF aircraft or ships in about 1,100 of these cases. These actions over the years have saved many lives. Some CF members have also lost their own lives in search and rescue attempts.  

Burton Winters’ family deserves our sympathy and support. One must appreciate the complexities in the decision making process of all SAR cases, with each having their own distinct challenges. We in the CF are saddened by the loss of Burton Winters. We grieve every time a search and rescue attempt is unsuccessful. Canadians can be confident in the CF SAR community’s dedication to serve them, and in the professionalism they demonstrate on a daily basis.”

- 30 -

Notes to editor / news director: For more information on the Search and Rescue Protocol Review, please visit the following link: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4106


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## OldSolduer (26 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :facepalm:  Uh, because SAR Techs _are_ different?



Agreed. How many people are suited for the extensive selection and training a SAR Tech will undergo? How many can handle the on call situations?

How many can earn TWO Medals Of Bravery? (I asked that particular SAR Tech if he was retarded....he laughed and responded yes I am)

I wager not many.

And now the RCAF wants to sh!tcan the beret? Please..... :facepalm:


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## dapaterson (26 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ...and yet I've _heard_ that the RCAF's SAR-related priority is to ban the SAR Techs' berets with DEUs.   :



I, for one, look forward to the bright orange wedges that SAR techs will wear on parade.


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## Strike (26 Mar 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And now the RCAF wants to sh!tcan the beret? Please..... :facepalm:



I seriously doubt that SAR techs require an orange beret to feel important, or make everyone know who they are.  From the SAR techs I've met, they are only egotistical to each other and very humble when talking about their jobs to outsiders.  Has anyone bothered asking how they feel about the whole thing? Or are we all just assuming that we are doing right by them when they very well may not even care?


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## Jimmy_D (26 Mar 2012)

The only thing that gets me with taking the orange away from SAR, correct me if I'm wrong. Is that orange (hunter orange / blaze orange / red-orange) is a nation or international sign of SAR wheather or not it is GSAR or military SAR is it not?


----------



## ballz (26 Mar 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Has anyone bothered asking how they feel about the whole thing? Or are we all just assuming that we are doing right by them when they very well may not even care?



I think we've become sidetracked. This beret thing originally started because Journeyman mentioned that the leadership was more worried about berets, as opposed to real issues, and that's where the complaint lies. It really had nothing to do with whether or not the SAR techs cared about their beret, because it appears (to me, from Journeyman's comment) they're arguing that there are more important things to worry about (and there definitely is).


----------



## mariomike (26 Mar 2012)

Jimmy_D said:
			
		

> The only thing that gets me with taking the orange away from SAR, correct me if I'm wrong. Is that orange (hunter orange / blaze orange / red-orange) is a nation or international sign of SAR wheather or not it is GSAR or military SAR is it not?



The only SAR I ever saw is HUSAR ( formed after 9/11 ), and the Marine Unit. They wore same blue work clothes as the rest of us. Now with bright yellow jackets.

Years ago, ambulances had wide wrap around "Omaha Orange" stripes. It was common all over North America. Maybe they still paint them orange in some places. For a short time ( less than a year ), there were orange cross emblems ( the Red Cross complained ). The Star of Life was originally orange, and later changed to blue.
Even the stations, and old textbooks, were orange.

The air ambulances in Ontario are painted orange.

The Canadian EMS ESM has "three stripes of Philadelphia orange 2.3 mm in width". 

So, the colour orange has a history in Canadian emergency operations.


----------



## PanaEng (27 Mar 2012)

Spectrum said:
			
		

> The following should be CF SOP's WRT the CBC:
> 
> 1) Avoid the CBC at all costs
> 
> 2) When option 1 fails, for the love of god - don't read the comments.



Absolutely NOT!!
The opposite should be done. They, like any other media corp, take their cue from their readers - at least they should.
What we should be doing, as individuals, visit the website and tastefully and professionally comment on matters that interest you. Submit comments to the editors, etc.


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## Celticgirl (27 Mar 2012)

Our unit had a busy night last night (and this morning):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/03/27/ns-boat-rescue-lake.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/03/27/ns-yacht-missing.html



Nice to see that their heroic actions made the media blitz today!  BRAVO ZULU to all who took part in these rescue missions!!   I am so very proud to work with you all!!   :yellow:


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## Rescue Randy (27 Mar 2012)

Ad Vigilamus Undis.  Outstanding response from both Flights, including last Weekend.  BZ


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Apr 2012)

> The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, today announced that another CH-146 Griffon helicopter will be established at 5 Wing Goose Bay. With this addition, three Griffon helicopters will now provide utility helicopter capability at 5 Wing.
> 
> "A third Griffon aircraft at 5 Wing Goose Bay will have an immediate positive impact on the operational readiness of the base and provide flexibility to decision makers on the use of Canadian Forces assets in the region," said Minister MacKay. "This helicopter represents another resource that can contribute to Canada's Search and Rescue system in support of primary responders in this region."
> 
> The third helicopter provides greater operational flexibility by increasing the potential of having serviceable aircraft to support operations and training. It will also increase the availability of aircraft with which to support the squadron's secondary roles, including support to Search and Rescue missions. Any Canadian Forces aircraft can be called upon to contribute to Search and Rescue missions when necessary, in addition to those permanently assigned to this role. Ground Search and Rescue in Canada is conducted under the authority of provinces and territories, who may request federal support, including air services ....


DND/CF Info-machine, 11 Apr 12


----------



## Rifleman62 (7 May 2012)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/05/06/nl-winters-audio-506.html?cmp=rss

*DND tapes question N.L. role in search for lost boy on ice*

Body of Burton Winters recovered from the sea ice near Makkovik on Feb. 2

CBC News - Posted: May 7, 2012 - Updated: May 7, 2012 

Audio recordings raise new questions about the role of the Newfoundland government in the search for a 14-year-old who died on the sea ice off the north coast of Labrador last winter.N.L.'s role in search2:51

Audio recordings obtained by CBC News raise new questions about the role of the Newfoundland government in the search for a 14-year-old who died on the sea ice off the north coast of Labrador last winter.

The recordings suggest emergency officials in the province were slow to react after they were alerted the first day Burton Winters was reported missing — Jan. 29.

Federal military search and rescue has been criticized for not sending help to the search area quickly enough during the four-day operation, but military officials didn’t know Winters was missing until the day after he was reported lost.

The body of Burton Winters, 14, of Makkovik, Labrador, was retrieved from the sea ice outside his hometown on Feb.2, 2012.The body of Burton Winters, 14, of Makkovik, Labrador, was retrieved from the sea ice outside his hometown on Feb.2, 2012. (Photo courtesy of his family)

The RCMP were told that Winters was missing at 6:30 p.m. NT, Sunday, Jan. 29.

With volunteers on snowmobiles already looking for the 14-year-old, police said they didn't request air support from provincial officials until Monday morning.

It's up to the province to determine if the military is needed for air searches.

But recordings released to CBC News suggest RCMP in Makkovik did ask the province for help the day Winters was reported missing, but were told to call back in the morning.

    'They won't even do it. I tried to do that the first time, they said oh no, call us back in the morning,'—Cpl.Kimball Vardy

One of the recordings released by the Department of National Defence to CBC News includes a conversation on the third day of the search. It’s between RCMP Cpl. Kimball Vardy in Labrador and a military search and rescue dispatcher, Capt. Kristin MacDonald, in Nova Scotia.

MacDonald tells Vardy to contact EMO — the provincial Emergency Measures Organization now known as Fire and Emergency Services (FES) — to arrange aircraft for first light.

"I think EMO should try to make some arrangements tonight so they're not caught off guard in the morning," said MacDonald.

An obviously frustrated Vardy responds that he doesn't believe EMO will start making preparations that night:

"You know what? They won't even do it. I tried to do that the first time, they said, 'Oh no, call us back in the morning, call us back in the morning,'" said Vardy, explaining that the RCMP had been down this road with EMO before on that first, crucial night of searching for Winters.

"We went through that the very first day. We requested it that night, they never even looked at anything until eight o'clock the next morning, and I don't think they were here until after 10 a.m. or ... no, it was actually almost one o'clock in the afternoon before the helicopter arrived."

Province denies contact on 1st night

For its part, the provincial government insists it was not contacted the first night Winters was reported missing.

Another person who took part in the search, and was with Vardy the first night Winters was reported missing, said the audio recording raises questions that must be answered.

"We all thought the call [on the first night] was going out for air support," said Randy Edmunds, the Liberal MHA for the Torngat Mountains district of Labrador.

"This raises more questions and furthers [our] calls for an inquiry."
Burton Winters walked 19 kilometres over rough sea ice after abandoning his snowmobile pictured below from a helicopter.Burton Winters walked 19 kilometres over rough sea ice after abandoning his snowmobile pictured below from a helicopter. (RCMP)

The teen's body was recovered on Feb. 2.

Within days, critics began raising questions about how the search was conducted and calling for a review to scrutinize what happened.

The Winters family still wants that inquiry because there are too many unanswered questions.

Click here (at Link) to hear parts of the recordings that were obtained by CBC News.


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## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2012)

Some of the latest....





> Information regarding the use of a military aircraft at the end of January 2012 was recently tabled in Parliament by Minister MacKay. A Cormorant training flight that flew from CFB Gander to St. John's on 30 January 2012 is listed in this documentation. January 30th is the same day that a ground search and rescue operation was being led by the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador for Burton Winters. My intent with this communication is to provide context to this flight in light of the tragic passing of Burton Winters.
> 
> The Canadian Forces have consistently stated the operational decision not to deploy a Cormorant was based on a number of complex and inter-related factors to include: weather, aircraft availability, distance to the search area and the requirement to respond to an aeronautical and/or maritime search and rescue call which is the primary responsibility of the Department of National Defence and Canadian Forces.
> 
> ...


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