# If you haven't been to Afghanistan shut up.



## Jarnhamar (26 Jun 2012)

Resharing this ALL over facebook makes you worldly and wise. Really.  You need to make sure the 1% of people on your facebook who may not know you've been over there realize that you have been.

And it doesn't matter what you are arguing about or discussing,  as long as you've been to Afghanistan or Iraq you probably know more. People just don't understand, man.


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## Sythen (26 Jun 2012)

Really man? Though I'd never personally put something like this as a picture on my profile, I have definitely thought it before when listening to people tell me what its like over there. Listening to people talk about the war in Afghanistan, who haven't been there, is like reading an erotic novel written by a virgin. In no way do I see this poster as claiming knowledge of anything beyond that experience.


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## dapaterson (26 Jun 2012)

We need a more Canadian version - Wainwright and Meaford.


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Listening to people talk about the war in Afghanistan, who haven't been there, is like reading an erotic novel written by a virgin.



Sort of like most recruiting threads.


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## 63 Delta (26 Jun 2012)

I agree with Sythen; while I would never post such a thing on my FB page, there is a reason I dont talk about Afghanistan with any of my family. They are woefully ignorant of anything that goes on their. 

I loved how after being back a month, I was forced to listen to my cousins ex husband tell me how we should never have been there to begin with. Yet he had no worldly knowledge about Afghanistan, Op Athena or any idea that he was talking out his ass.

Ignorance is bliss.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> We need a more Canadian version - Wainwright and Meaford.



Afghanistan IS a Canadian version.   

:warstory:   and let's not forget the Mattawa.   Why, I'll never forget the summer of '91...

Seriously, I find the poster a bit of a smack-down attempt.  People who haven't been there are still entitled to have opinions about it, to weigh in on what we're doing there & why - and indeed they SHOULD.   Maybe I'm biased because I'm one of those who haven't been there - but if we don't all take some sort of ownership of our conflicts, together as a society, that can't be good in the long run.

But as for war stories - yeah, leave them to those who've fought the war.


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## GAP (26 Jun 2012)

The ignorance you are experiencing is not unique.....after coming back from Viet Nam, I soon learned to move on....the ignorant opinions/ideas were right out there......not worth discussing, because they didn't want to hear what you had to say, they just wanted a platform to spout their opinions.... :


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## dapaterson (26 Jun 2012)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> I agree with Sythen; while I would never post such a thing on my FB page, there is a reason I dont talk about Afghanistan with any of my family. They are woefully ignorant of anything that goes on their.
> 
> I loved how after being back a month, I was forced to listen to my cousins ex husband tell me how we should never have been there to begin with. Yet he had no worldly knowledge about Afghanistan, Op Athena or any idea that he was talking out his ass.
> 
> Ignorance is bliss.



Sigh.  Being #3 rifleman in a section in a platoon at a FOB gives one no particular insight into national strategy or objectives, and success or failure at achieving them.  It does not qualify one as an expert in the campaign.

By the same token, sitting in an armchair in Tisdale Saskatchewan does not give one understanding of the tactical sitaution on the ground.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

Hey, there's no need to diss Saskatchewan here...


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## Sythen (26 Jun 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Sigh.  Being #3 rifleman in a section in a platoon at a FOB gives one no particular insight into national strategy or objectives, and success or failure at achieving them.  It does not qualify one as an expert in the campaign.
> 
> By the same token, sitting in an armchair in Tisdale Saskatchewan does not give one understanding of the tactical sitaution on the ground.



 : Because that's obviously what we're talking about here.


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## Sigs Pig (26 Jun 2012)

The same can be said back home in Canada. Politicians listen to the bleeding hearts and pour $$$$ into the native reserves. I have lived in numerous reserves and worked in them most of my civvy career. I can tell whomever, where the majority of those $$$$ goes, but it won't change the populations attitude for "those poor people".  and the money still pours in.....

But I am NOT the expert.

ME


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## Jed (26 Jun 2012)

Hey, no need to diss Tisdale here, let alone SK.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

Jed said:
			
		

> Hey, no need to diss Tisdale here, let alone SK.



   True, true...


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## Jarnhamar (26 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> : Because that's obviously what we're talking about here.



That actually was the intent of my post.

I totally agree someone who hasn't been to Afghanistan as a rifleman has no idea what it's like to be a rifleman in Afghanistan- but I'm noticing a lot of people treat being a rifleman in Afghanistan as giving them some deep view on how the middle east and "the world" really works.


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## dapaterson (26 Jun 2012)

Jed said:
			
		

> Hey, no need to diss Tisdale here, let alone SK.



In a box unpacked after the past 3 or 4 moves, I somewhere have a thirty year old commemorative coin from Tisdale - "Land of rape and honey".  Today, we'd call it canola.


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## Popurhedoff (26 Jun 2012)

I would not put that on my FB for sure, it just looks like a bragging in my opinion.  I remember people saying stuff like that back when there was the Gulf War2, Somolia, Rawanda, Zaire, Gulf War1, Bosnia... same sh1te, just no social media back then.

But I do have find memories of Wainwright... freaking gopher holes...  and dont forget about Band Camp ... Jeeeze!!!

Cheers
Pop


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Land of rape and honey".  Today, we'd call it canola.



The tangent police will be out any moment now.  :nod:   Yes, I've reassured a few people on that point as well - you still sometimes hear of rapeseed, which tends to shock those unfamiliar with it.   The rapeseed/canola fields do look strikingly beautiful in bloom, especially with flax in bloom nearby.


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## ArmyRick (26 Jun 2012)

First I will confess, I have not been to Afghanistan. 

But as far as knowing how the world works? Sure I do. Its wildly UNPREDICTABLE! That sum it up?


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## LieutenantPrivate (26 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> That actually was the intent of my post.
> 
> I totally agree someone who hasn't been to Afghanistan as a rifleman has no idea what it's like to be a rifleman in Afghanistan- but I'm noticing a lot of people treat being a rifleman in Afghanistan as giving them some deep view on how the middle east and "the world" really works.



Exactly


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## stealthylizard (26 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> The tangent police will be out any moment now.  :nod:   Yes, I've reassured a few people on that point as well - you still sometimes hear of rapeseed, which tends to shock those unfamiliar with it.   The rapeseed/canola fields do look strikingly beautiful in bloom, especially with flax in bloom nearby.



Canola is beautiful in bloom until you have to walk through it.


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## Sythen (26 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> That actually was the intent of my post.
> 
> I totally agree someone who hasn't been to Afghanistan as a rifleman has no idea what it's like to be a rifleman in Afghanistan- but I'm noticing a lot of people treat being a rifleman in Afghanistan as giving them some deep view on how the middle east and "the world" really works.



I would hazard a guess that the average "rifleman #3", which I guess is a pejorative now, is far more knowledgable and informed about the Middle East than the average citizen.


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## George Wallace (26 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> I would hazard a guess that the average "rifleman #3", which I guess is a pejorative now, is far more knowledgable and informed about the Middle East than the average citizen.



Ummm.  If you were "rifleman #3", you may like to know that you were not in the "Middle East", but "Southwest Asia".

Yes, "rifleman #3" may be far more knowledgable and informed than the average citizen, but (s)he is far from an expert on the Region.


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## LieutenantPrivate (26 Jun 2012)

Probably no more than the average 20 year old political science student though. The problem is the arrogance of "been there, know it all". And yes, I have been there multiple times


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## Maxadia (26 Jun 2012)

The term "Middle East" can take in all or part of North Africa and Western Asia (specifically southwestern Asia).

Depends on the person using the term, and sometimes the context.  Asia, Africa - easy to specify.  Middle East is a general term, not specific....like Central Alberta - at what point does an area stop being "central"?


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## George Wallace (26 Jun 2012)

LieutenantPrivate said:
			
		

> Probably no more than the average 20 year old political science student though. The problem is the arrogance of "been there, know it all". And yes, I have been there multiple times




I believe that was said:



> but (s)he is far from an expert on the Region.



As for your 20 year old political science student.........well.....we won't go there.   :


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## George Wallace (26 Jun 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> The term "Middle East" can take in all or part of North Africa and Western Asia (specifically southwestern Asia).
> 
> Depends on the person using the term, and sometimes the context.  Asia, Africa - easy to specify.  Middle East is a general term, not specific....like Central Alberta - at what point does an area stop being "central"?



I guess we can just leave that to "rifleman #3" reading the inscription on their medal.     ;D


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## Maxadia (26 Jun 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for your 20 year old political science student.........well.....we won't go there.   :



 ;D ;D ;D


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## Sigs Pig (26 Jun 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> The term "Middle East" can take in all or part of North Africa and Western Asia (specifically southwestern Asia).
> 
> Depends on the person using the term, and sometimes the context.  Asia, Africa - easy to specify.  Middle East is a general term, not specific....like Central Alberta - *at what point does an area stop being "central"?
> *



When it refers to any area outside of Toronto.

ME


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## 2 Cdo (26 Jun 2012)

I rank that right up there with the bumper sticker that states that Canadians who don't stand behind the troops should stand in front. Implying that as a Canadian soldier you would shot other Canadians with different opinions is just wrong.


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## dogger1936 (26 Jun 2012)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> I rank that right up there with the bumper sticker that states that Canadians who don't stand behind the troops should stand in front. Implying that as a Canadian soldier you would shot other Canadians with different opinions is just wrong.



I hate that one as much as "My daddy fights for your freedom".  What a bunch of B/S.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I hate that one as much as "My daddy fights for your freedom".  What a bunch of B/S.



What about "If you like your freedom, thank a vet"?   There's some truth to that one, but I find it a bit discomfiting as well.  

In each case, there seems to be a worthwhile, subtle point that ends up getting lost in the in-your-face nature of the delivery.


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## MikeL (26 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I hate that one as much as "My daddy fights for your freedom".  What a bunch of B/S.



My daddy, My boyfriend, My husband, etc fights for your freedom,  as well as "you think your life is stressful, I'm a army wife.. Petawawa is filled with those stickers...  

1.) No one cares
2.) You're in Petawawa having a spouse in the military doesn't make you unique or special


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## dogger1936 (26 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> What about "If you like your freedom, thank a vet"?   There's some truth to that one, but I find it a bit discomfiting as well.
> 
> In each case, there seems to be a worthwhile, subtle point that ends up getting lost in the in-your-face nature of the delivery.



I find it all pretty pretentious.



			
				-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> My daddy, My boyfriend, My husband, etc fights for your freedom,  as well as "you think your life is stressful, I'm a army wife.. Petawawa is filled with those stickers...
> 
> 1.) No one cares
> 2.) You're in Petawawa having a spouse in the military doesn't make you unique or special



I couldn't agree more. Same as this if you haven't been to Afghanistan shut up thing. Anyone who posts that kind of drivel is a loser looking for attention. Wow you've been overseas to do your job....my f'ing hero.


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## Robert0288 (26 Jun 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for your 20 year old political science student.........well.....we won't go there.   :



As a 20+ year old political science student, I would be offended... if it was in any way shape or form not true.


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## Armymedic (26 Jun 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for your 20 year old political science student.........well.....we won't go there.   :



If she is hot, we could.....


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## Armymedic (26 Jun 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> My daddy, My boyfriend, My husband, etc fights for your freedom,  as well as "you think your life is stressful, I'm a army wife.. Petawawa is filled with those stickers...
> 
> 1.) No one cares
> 2.) You're in Petawawa having a spouse in the military doesn't make you unique or special




Occasionally it does make one special....

In the helmet wearing, short bus riding sort of way.

Just ask the deployment support staff about all the special people they have to deal with while we are gone....


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## Spooks (26 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I hate that one as much as "My daddy fights for your freedom".  What a bunch of B/S.



I don't see a problem with this statement for the military IS commonly referred to as the entitiy that fights for our (democratic) freedom (ref: Vets usually). The problem that I would have from it is the childishness of it. It's saying, in a more mature way, 'Yeah, well my daddy can beat up your daddy'. I do not see (or personally haven't at least) cops' cars say 'my daddy keeps your freedom safe', teachers' cars say 'my daddy educates you on freedom', or anything of that sort. This need for bragging countermands the quiet professionalism we should all have. 

I did not join to be thanked by every citizen, get a gold star or blue ribbon for my participation. I proudly do it and never have the urge to chest-thump to my male peers in order to defend and/or justify my employment. If people want a pat-on-the-back for titles like being a soldier, a soldier's spouse, how hard it is to run towards gunfire or even how hard it is to do PT every moning (and get paid for it), then perhaps the military is not a place for them. Perhaps grade school is a better place where you are given gold stars and blue ribbons for everything from showing up to a mandatory event to washing your hands after using the bathroom.

I do not believe in the practice of demanding thanks from people. So you don't support the troops - my employment is to protect the right that gives your the freedom to voice that. So I fought for your freedom - if I didn't, someone else would have been told to it. So my life as an army wife is stressful - it was my choice and will continue to be my choice. Demanding gratitude from people via even the form of bumper stickers is hypocritical of military ethos.

I'll stop there b/c I have a feeling I offended some already. If I did offend you, feel free to stand in front of me....at the Tim Hortens lineup.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (26 Jun 2012)

The only things that I personally repost on my facebook page are the "Military Minds" posts that get sent around, as I know several people who are afflicted by PTSD, and 1 who killed himself because of it.  

Most of the people I deployed only deployed in order to get the tour money... there were certainly not a whole lot of "defending freedom" conversations or political aspirations.


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## armyvern (26 Jun 2012)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> "defending freedom" conversations or political aspirations.



I find it ironic that we push ourselves as defenders of freedom and freedom of speech ... yet then see some with (alleged) 'balls' enough telling other people who, as taxpayers and voting citizens, to STFU about their entitled democratic opinion on it.

The irony in that slays me at a double face palm level.

"We fight for your freedom/freedom of speech ... but don't you dare fucking use it."

How absolutely st_oo_pid is that all things considered.


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## Humphrey Bogart (26 Jun 2012)

Someone needs to make a bumper sticker that says "I fight for Oil"  ;D


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## fraserdw (26 Jun 2012)

How about "I fight for the Trans-Afghan Pipeline"  :-*


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2012)

"I fight because i like it"

It would go over well......


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## armyvern (26 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> "I fight because i like it"
> 
> It would go over well......



+100!! LMAO.


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## cupper (26 Jun 2012)

Or the more pragmatic:

"I fight so I can put food on the table, pay my mortgage, put my kids through school, and save for my eventual retirement." 

Then in small print below:

"Now if the Government would stop taxing my ass, I'd be happy"


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## Bird_Gunner45 (26 Jun 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> Or the more pragmatic:
> 
> "I fight so I can put food on the table, pay my mortgage, put my kids through school, and save for my eventual retirement."



"I fight for 2% pension/year superannuated by 2% a year to cover inflation"??

how about, "I fight when it's convenient, but most of the time I just try to get out of FTX"?


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## GK .Dundas (27 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I find it ironic that we push ourselves as defenders of freedom and freedom of speech ... yet then see some with (alleged) 'balls' enough telling other people who, as taxpayers and voting citizens, to STFU about their entitled democratic opinion on it.
> 
> The irony in that slays me at a double face palm level.
> 
> ...


 I agree  this whole pathetic debate is just a trifle silly it also reminds me of an argument that took place in a local legion where my Father was President.
 It seems there was this crusty old  WW II vet who took umbrage at someone who dared voice an opinion on some part of the conflict and had the poor enough enough taste to be born post 45" He then made the mistake of turning to my father and expecting some sort of support when dealing  this upstart.
 " Bloggins", sighed my Father. We went thru Borden together and you were a an idiot then . And you went went all the way thru France , Belgium ,Holland and Germany and all that made you was a well travelled idiot .


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## Redeye (27 Jun 2012)

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> I don't see a problem with this statement for the military IS commonly referred to as the entitiy that fights for our (democratic) freedom (ref: Vets usually). The problem that I would have from it is the childishness of it. It's saying, in a more mature way, 'Yeah, well my daddy can beat up your daddy'. I do not see (or personally haven't at least) cops' cars say 'my daddy keeps your freedom safe', teachers' cars say 'my daddy educates you on freedom', or anything of that sort. This need for bragging countermands the quiet professionalism we should all have.
> 
> I did not join to be thanked by every citizen, get a gold star or blue ribbon for my participation. I proudly do it and never have the urge to chest-thump to my male peers in order to defend and/or justify my employment. If people want a pat-on-the-back for titles like being a soldier, a soldier's spouse, how hard it is to run towards gunfire or even how hard it is to do PT every moning (and get paid for it), then perhaps the military is not a place for them. Perhaps grade school is a better place where you are given gold stars and blue ribbons for everything from showing up to a mandatory event to washing your hands after using the bathroom.
> 
> ...



Very well said. I feel mostly the same way. In fact, that "thanks" think makes me feel awkward sometimes. It did especially before I deployed, because I was just another Reservist, and reality was I'd never really been called on to do anything particularly significant. True, I stood ready to and put my name forward should the call come, so to speak, but it still made me feel weird. And even now, I sometimes feel like some kind of grifter for all the stuff people send etc. I have had infinitely more satisfaction exchanging emails with someone who sent a package than I have from anything in them, and lest anyone think otherwise, I appreciate greatly that people take the time and make the effort to get donations and send stuff over. An organization got my name from an old friend and sent over a bunch of packages and actually took advice from people before sending a second - they're sending over stuff that we can hand out to kids (pens and notebooks and the like) rather than junk food we don't really need. That's admirable.

What really torques me are people that think that being in the military or a veteran entitles them to a whole bunch of special treatment. The case in point is something I saw that's been going on for a long time - a veteran who was fined by his condo corporation for hanging a flag off his balcony which is a violation of the condo corporation's rules, and something he had been told, repeatedly, to stop doing. To be fair to him, I don't know that this guy was the one who turned it into something big, I suspect it's more civilians who are only too happy to speak for us it seems. It's simple enough in my view. The rules are clear. When he bought the condo, they would have reviewed them with him. His balcony, in most condos, is an exclusive use common area, meaning in layman's terms, he doesn't own it therefore the rules apply. "But he's a veteran!" they scream. So what? Rules are rules are rules. We all have to follow them.


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## PMedMoe (27 Jun 2012)

Redeye said:
			
		

> What really torques me are people that think that being in the military or a veteran entitles them to a whole bunch of special treatment. The case in point is something I saw that's been going on for a long time - a veteran who was fined by his condo corporation for hanging a flag off his balcony which is a violation of the condo corporation's rules, and something he had been told, repeatedly, to stop doing. To be fair to him, I don't know that this guy was the one who turned it into something big, I suspect it's more civilians who are only too happy to speak for us it seems. It's simple enough in my view. The rules are clear. When he bought the condo, they would have reviewed them with him. His balcony, in most condos, is an exclusive use common area, meaning in layman's terms, he doesn't own it therefore the rules apply. "But he's a veteran!" they scream. So what? Rules are rules are rules. We all have to follow them.



Completely agree.  I had a debate on FB with someone who was on the veteran's side.  The stupid thing is, it wasn't even a flag but a damned windsock!  :


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## dapaterson (27 Jun 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Completely agree.  I had a debate on FB with someone who was on the veteran's side.  The stupid thing is, it wasn't even a flag but a damned windsock!  :



No - it was a windsock OF FREEDOM!


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## PMedMoe (27 Jun 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> No - it was a windsock OF FREEDOM!



 :rofl:


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## bridges (27 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I find it ironic that we push ourselves as defenders of freedom and freedom of speech ... yet then see some with (alleged) 'balls' enough telling other people who, as taxpayers and voting citizens, to STFU about their entitled democratic opinion on it.
> 
> The irony in that slays me at a double face palm level.
> 
> ...



As people have the freedom to display bumper stickers and say things like "STFU" in Facebook posts, so do others have the freedom to analyze and criticize those messages.  That's all we're doing here - exercising our freedom in kind.  No reason we should be compelled to be muzzled on the topic.  And I don't recall anyone telling posters of said bumper stickers not to dare use their freedom.   

Personally I'm heartened to see the silent majority weighing in on this.  I, too, find the bumper stickers annoying, and undermining what we do... ironically.    



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> No - it was a windsock OF FREEDOM!



Windsock of freedom    ;D    Yep.


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## armyvern (27 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> As people have the freedom to display bumper stickers and say things like "STFU" in Facebook posts, so do others have the freedom to analyze and criticize those messages.  That's all we're doing here - exercising our freedom in kind.  No reason we should be compelled to be muzzled on the topic.  And I don't recall anyone telling posters of said bumper stickers not to dare use their freedom.
> 
> Personally I'm heartened to see the silent majority weighing in on this.  I, too, find the bumper stickers annoying, and undermining what we do... ironically.
> 
> Windsock of freedom    ;D    Yep.



Actually, it all harkens back to "quiet professionalism" we (collectively) used to be known for ... of days obviously gone by.


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## Sythen (27 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Actually, it all harkens back to "quiet professionalism" we (collectively) used to be known for ... of days obviously gone by.



You mean days when there wasn't quick to access public forums to post or say whatever happens to cross your mind at the time? If FB had been around during WW2, the same type of stuff would have been posted. People don't change, only mediums of communication do.


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## armyvern (27 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> You mean days when there wasn't quick to access public forums to post or say whatever happens to cross your mind at the time? If FB had been around during WW2, the same type of stuff would have been posted. People don't change, only mediums of communication do.



No, I mean days when those in the CF would correct misperceptions and provide information in an attempt to educate those not so much so in a polite manner ... in a first reaction.

Rather than saying "Shut up, you haven't been there" in either words OR bumper stickers OR facebook posters as a first reaction. 

Sadly, there are even those who use the same thing on their fellow soldiers - let alone fellow citizens - as some 'newfound'  "right" given that they've "been there, done that" ... "You weren't OTW - STFU/You're useless".

I think it's pretty unprofessional. You may or may not agree. That is your right.


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## exabedtech (27 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> As people have the freedom to display bumper stickers and say things like "STFU" in Facebook posts, so do others have the freedom to analyze and criticize those messages.  That's all we're doing here - exercising our freedom in kind.  No reason we should be compelled to be muzzled on the topic.  And I don't recall anyone telling posters of said bumper stickers not to dare use their freedom.
> 
> Personally I'm heartened to see the silent majority weighing in on this.  I, too, find the bumper stickers annoying, and undermining what we do... ironically.
> 
> Windsock of freedom    ;D    Yep.



Thank god!  I was starting to think I was the only one completely sick to death of the "fighting for your freedom" crap.  If the military is your chosen profession, you must have had some clue that at some point the job could get pretty tough in more ways than one.  You still signed up.  Please don't ask to be regarded as a hero by everyone you meet or profess deep strategic understanding of world events by virtue of having been deployed or knowing someone who has.

I've hung around with a few paramedics over the past year, and its funny how I NEVER hear them going on about how they should be seen as heros, given special privileges or any other crap like that.  Yet, they save lives on a daily basis in some pretty tough conditions without the benefit of being armed to the teeth.

So you've been to Afghanistan.  Just as thousands of others have.  Followed orders, did your job with the professionalism that is our trademark.  That's pretty awesome, but it hardly gets you a PhD in middle eastern studies.  

Sorry about the rant... a little sorry at least, but I just got off FB where AGAIN some idiot posted that "if you don't stand behind our troops..." crap.    :facepalm:


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## Sythen (27 Jun 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No, I mean days when those in the CF would correct misperceptions and provide information in an attempt to educate those not so much so in a polite manner ... in a first reaction.



Those good old days that never existed you mean? I am sure, like today, there are those who would politely correct false information.. But just as today, there were those with less patience who said heck with it, you have no idea what you're talking about and I refuse to argue with you so stfu. 



> Sadly, there are even those who use the same thing on their fellow soldiers - let alone fellow citizens - as some 'newfound'  "right" given that they've "been there, done that" ... "You weren't OTW - STFU/You're useless".



If you get told that you weren't OTW so stfu a lot Vern, it probably means you need to stay inside your lane. I have met FAR more WOGs trying to tell me what it was "really like in Afghanistan" or "I wouldn't have acted like that if I were in his/her position" than I've met Combat Arms who have said "You weren't OTW - STFU/You're useless". Its awesome when I talk to uniformed members with LOG on their slip on telling me all about Afghanistan, now that I am a civvy. The best part is the look on their face when I tell them I was in The RCR for 5 years.



> I think it's pretty unprofessional. You may or may not agree. That is your right.



I think its unprofessional to try to talk down to others because they don't act like you believe they should. Its funny though to try to harken back to some time when everyone in the CF was like some movie version of what soldiers should be. This was never the case, and never will be the case.


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## bick (27 Jun 2012)

The "inside/outside the wire" and "you haven't been to Afghanistan" talk will continue.  This talk goes on in the US and UK militaries and was a highlighted theme in the book, "War."  

I have to agree with Sythen, the people with the hardest stories about Afghanistan are those who did the least fighting.  Not to belittle the support trades.  Without their support, the boots on the ground can't do their job.


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## armyvern (27 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> If you get told that you weren't OTW so stfu a lot Vern, it probably means you need to stay inside your lane. I have met FAR more WOGs trying to tell me what it was "really like in Afghanistan" or "I wouldn't have acted like that if I were in his/her position" than I've met Combat Arms who have said "You weren't OTW - STFU/You're useless". Its awesome when I talk to uniformed members with LOG on their slip on telling me all about Afghanistan, now that I am a civvy. The best part is the look on their face when I tell them I was in The RCR for 5 years.



Actually, never been told that myself ... just see it even on this very site. Just do a search.

"WOG" = WithOut Guts

Ineresting, but baseless, term inferring superiority.

You guys have fun in here.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Jun 2012)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> The "inside/outside the wire" and "you haven't been to Afghanistan" talk will continue.  This talk goes on in the US and UK militaries and was a highlighted theme in the book, "War."
> 
> I have to agree with Sythen, the people with the hardest stories about Afghanistan are those who did the least fighting.  Not to belittle the support trades.  Without their support, the boots on the ground can't do their job.



Can't agree 100%.  I have quite a few friends from the battlegroup that exaggerated their stories.   It's not specifically the support trades that boast shit. 
I mean I was on a MSVS course and we had a transport guy (MSE op) from Pet talking about all the tango's he ghosted but just as many battlegroup riflemen dudes tell BS stories.
Anecdotal but I had a friend who was telling everyone in the mess how he flipped out at walmart a week after getting home. The pakistani guy selling him an XBox reminded him of shit "over there" and he wanted to kill the guy.
I called bullshit and asked hiim how many Pakistani guys working in the Walmart in Afghanistan selling XBox's tried to kill him.

It's not just support guys crafting these stories. 



I was under the impression WOG was actually "Worn Out Grunts"
You know the guys with time in who spend 20 years busting their knees and backs in the combat arms who decide to CT to a support trade.

Don't see any weakness in putting your time in then sucking back a little and letting the next generation take over.


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## Sythen (27 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Can't agree 100%.  I have quite a few friends from the battlegroup that exaggerated their stories.   It's not specifically the support trades that boast crap.
> I mean I was on a MSVS course and we had a transport guy (MSE op) from Pet talking about all the tango's he ghosted but just as many battlegroup riflemen dudes tell BS stories.
> Anecdotal but I had a friend who was telling everyone in the mess how he flipped out at walmart a week after getting home. The pakistani guy selling him an XBox reminded him of crap "over there" and he wanted to kill the guy.
> I called bullshit and asked hiim how many Pakistani guys working in the Walmart in Afghanistan selling XBox's tried to kill him.
> ...



Never said there aren't those in the Combat Arms who don't do the same. In my personal experience, the majority are WOGs. And I mean WOG as Vern defined it, so there is no doubt.


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## mariomike (27 Jun 2012)

exabedtech said:
			
		

> I've hung around with a few paramedics over the past year, and its funny how I NEVER hear them going on about how they should be seen as heros, given special privileges or any other crap like that.  Yet, they save lives on a daily basis in some pretty tough conditions without the benefit of being armed to the teeth.



From what I remember of it, there weren't any heros, and there weren't any cowards. They were just regular guys.


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## brihard (28 Jun 2012)

The whole "If you weren't there STFU" thin has mostly seemed to me to be dudes trying to pretend that playing a tactical role on the ground - #2 Rifleman or what have you - gave them some sort of strategic insight ad to what strategic role our contribution played, or in what way The War (yes, I speak of it in the past tense- pardon my own hubris) played in our national interest. I learned more about our involvement in Afghanistan in my year of workup training by cracking a dozen odd books than I did in my time on the ground. Conversely, in my six months sucking sand I did a pretty decent job as a troop, and learned things I could never learn academically.

But when another Canadian - a creature as politically, and potentially strategically aware ad you or I - say "well I think..." I will NEVER tell them "shut the f*** up, you weren't there." My experience was specific and nuanced enough than honesty compels me to recognize my own arcs, and where my actual *knowledge* ends.

And when all is said and done, I carry my rifle at behest of the state, on behalf of the citizen. The citizen I serve is entitled to an opinion, and it's as likely to be informed as mine.


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I was under the impression WOG was actually "Worn Out Grunts"



I think the original term was derogatory, and referred to "Wily Oriental Gentleman".


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## cupper (28 Jun 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I think the original term was derogatory, and referred to "Wily Oriental Gentleman".



You are correct.

From Merriam Webster:



> chiefly British usually disparaging
> : a dark-skinned foreigner; especially : one from the Middle East or Far East
> perhaps short for golliwog
> First Known Use: circa 1929



and from Urban Dictionary



> { /wäg/ (n.) offensive slang. 1925-30, from 'Golliwogg': a 19th century blackface doll; or alternately, an acronym of '(W)orthy (O)riental (G)entleman' }


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## Journeyman (28 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> The best part is the look on their face when I tell them I was in The RCR for 5 years.


Was it this look- :facepalm: ?   Or this look- : ?

...when you apparently believe you're entitled to this look-  :bowdown:


I'm afraid, I can't get past this look though-  :boring:


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## Sythen (28 Jun 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Was it this look- :facepalm: ?   Or this look- : ?
> 
> ...when you apparently believe you're entitled to this look-  :bowdown:
> 
> ...



Can't tell if trolling or just stupid? How about the, 'oh shit I just got caught Walting!' look?


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jun 2012)

If anyone cared to search, they'd realise that we've been through all this before.

Let's give others the strength of conviction, and see where it lead them? 

Hopefully, down the road where the can complain\ boast, "We are the Press".

The press doesn't make your rules, or ours' or the governments. 

Time to hang them


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## Sythen (28 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If anyone cared to search, they'd realise that we've been through all this before.
> 
> Let's give others the strength of conviction, and see where it lead them?
> 
> ...



erm.. Had a bit to drink?  ;D Or are you quoting something?


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## exabedtech (28 Jun 2012)

Funny how that Air of Superiority gets into some of the troops.  Was likely our major downfall in the Cdn AB Regt.  Took years of 'deprogramming' for me to realize that just because a person hadn't jumped full equipment at night from 800' that they aren't automatically inferior.  I see that same attitude in these posts when talking about the support trades.  I was combat arms for 14 years, support trades for another 7 and can say with complete certainty that the level of dedication, professional competence, and risk are no different.

Pride can be good or evil, depends how you use it.  If you're a combat arms guy who thinks you're somehow superior to a support trades guy, you likely have some growing up to do.  I know because I did.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> erm.. Had a bit to drink?  ;D Or are you quoting something?



Neither.

Just trying to stop the useless reposting of already said items.

Sorry if you have have trouble understanding. Not my problem.

I'd prefer usefull discussion where we hadn't been before, rather than useless, already gone over history.

Saves me from bringing out the 'Ban Hammer' and arbitrarily stiffling things.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Those good old days that never existed you mean? I am sure, like today, there are those who would politely correct false information.. But just as today, there were those with less patience who said heck with it, you have no idea what you're talking about and I refuse to argue with you so stfu.
> 
> If you get told that you weren't OTW so stfu a lot Vern, it probably means you need to stay inside your lane. I have met FAR more WOGs trying to tell me what it was "really like in Afghanistan" or "I wouldn't have acted like that if I were in his/her position" than I've met Combat Arms who have said "You weren't OTW - STFU/You're useless". Its awesome when I talk to uniformed members with LOG on their slip on telling me all about Afghanistan, now that I am a civvy. The best part is the look on their face when I tell them I was in The RCR for 5 years.
> 
> I think its unprofessional to try to talk down to others because they don't act like you believe they should. Its funny though to try to harken back to some time when everyone in the CF was like some movie version of what soldiers should be. This was never the case, and never will be the case.



So how do you deal with those that were the first into Kabul? No wire, no defined areas of Ops, just one big recce for the rest of the follow on people.

I'm sure those that lost their lives there would fit your narrow minded view of things. 

Even though the same could have happened to anyone travelling those same routes.

Khandahar, and it's resulting AORs, wasn't the only place the war happened.

There were tough people in Afghanistan, for years, before Khandahar even happened.

And lots weren't infantry or even Cbt Arms.

I suppose many would assume that anyone that didn't have that simple fact figured out should take their own advice and Shut the Fuck Up.


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## Sythen (28 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So how do you deal with those that were the first into Kabul? No wire, no defined areas of Ops, just one big recce for the rest of the follow on people.
> 
> I'm sure those that lost their lives there would fit your narrow minded view of things.
> 
> ...



 : ok if you say so.


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## Scott (28 Jun 2012)

The fact that paramedics were brought up lends light to a good point: this shit happens everywhere.

That same person who does the whole ''STFU, you haven't been to Afghanistan'' is likely in for a rude awakening when he gets his job as a labourer in the oilsands, or as a roughneck on one of the rigs, and is told, ''STFU, you haven't...'' and then their, ''But I have been to Afghanistan and...'' retort will garner them a, ''Thanks for that, but so fucking what does that have to do with this?''

Point is, this sort of shit happens everywhere. I have seen it from medics, cops, firefighters, roughnecks, diamond drillers, pilots, and so on. 

I have also seen it from teachers, nurses, doctors, engineers, power linemen, and so forth.

The people that perpetuate this sort of shit, well, I ingore them. Just the same as I ignore firefighters or medics or teachers who blab about how tough shit was at blah, blah, blah. Someday they'll realize that they bore others and look like a twat. The dudes that have to tell others to STFU will be seen as general pricks and not very good teachers of the next generation, the Walts will be seen as Walts.

I firmly recall coming back from my first fire and sitting around with the other guys afterward having a beer. One or two of them were asking me how it had felt and I was doing my level best to describe this when an older member started calling it down and saying that us young guys would never know what it was like to fight ''real'' fires and whatnot. I'll admit that it was a bit offputting - for about a minute until another older fellow told me to just nevermind that sort of trash talk. I learned a lot from that. You know what I learned from that older, mealy mouthed guy? Nothing. Except how I was NOT going to act.

Correcting misconceptions is one thing. Being a dick is another.


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## bridges (28 Jun 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> And when all is said and done, I carry my rifle at behest of the state, on behalf of the citizen. The citizen I serve is entitled to an opinion, and it's as likely to be informed as mine.



Sums it up nicely - thank you.    :nod:


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## dogger1936 (28 Jun 2012)

We had a very Snr NCO at the mess tell us if we were gonna argue with him (over a sports game none the less) "We best get some sand on our boot's".

I guess if you have a tour on a satellite base like this; you can get away with that statement for a while...until he mouthed off to another WO and myself.

We laughed we cried; the WO wrote an apology in lieu of charges.


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## jollyjacktar (28 Jun 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I think the original term was derogatory, and referred to "Wily Oriental Gentleman".


My wife is British.  She hates the term and tells me that it is the equilivent of calling an African Canadian a Ni**er when directed at those persons originating from the Middle East.  Not kind, not well meant and by today's standards an insult.  Period.


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## ArmyRick (28 Jun 2012)

I remember when I first joined the army more than 20 years ago.

"You haven't been to germany..."
"You haven't been to Cypres..."
"You haven't been to Yugo/Croatia/Bosnia..."

When do this crap stop? Seriously? What happens in ten years time if the CF goes to some super shit hole that makes Afghanistan look like a vacation? Does that mean they get the right to do this same sort of nonsense.

The TRUE proffessional doesn't have to mouth off, his actions are his words....

The fact is, be it Cypes, Germany, Croatia, East Timor, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc, etc, is that those who put on the uniform and then deployed were WILLING to put themselves in harm's way, even if Harm came no where nears them.

Enough said?


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## Halifax Tar (28 Jun 2012)

I think the difference is its the first real sustained combat mission the Canadian Army has endured sense the Korean War.  

Having said that you are right ArmyRick 





> The TRUE proffessional doesn't have to mouth off, his actions are his words....


 very true...


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## dogger1936 (28 Jun 2012)

I also believe any combat arms soldier should be very proud of the role they played.

Having said that you have a capbadge and medals that should do the talking for you.

People who require telling stories usually are not proud of their role, their capbadge, and decorations.


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## 2ndChoiceName (28 Jun 2012)

Being a student who is not in the military (yet!), I try to read everything I can get my hands on about the military, and about the effects of combat/deployment on a soldier (Sebastien Junger's _War, Fifteen Days_, etc.). It is by no means a substitute for actual experience, but I get annoyed when I hear some of my fellow students talking about what they think war is like because they watched _Black Hawk Down, and I try to correct them when I can. I kind of feel like it is my responsibility to inform them otherwise, but from what I'm reading here, now I feel like kind of a D-Bag. Would that fall under the "If you haven't been to Afghanistan shut up." mentality?_


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## Journeyman (29 Jun 2012)

Pussies!   :

Until you've been to _Meaford_.....    :warstory:


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## dapaterson (29 Jun 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Until you've been to _Meaford_.....    :warstory:



Meaford?  That's nothing.  This one time in Farnham...


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## Hurricane (29 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I mean I was on a MSVS course and we had a transport guy (MSE op) from Pet talking about all the tango's he ghosted



It somewhat saddens me to say, but I believe I know the gentleman you are talking about.


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## PMedMoe (29 Jun 2012)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> It somewhat saddens me to say, but I believe I know the gentleman you are talking about.



I wonder if it's the same guy who showed us _*all*_ of his pictures from Afghanistan when he was supposed to be teaching us convoy drills.   :

That's over an hour of my life I'll never get back.......


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## Jarnhamar (29 Jun 2012)

2ndChoiceName said:
			
		

> but from what I'm reading here, now I feel like kind of a D-Bag. Would that fall under the "If you haven't been to Afghanistan shut up." mentality?



If your peers are talking about what it's like in Afghanistan whilst having not actually been there then it's a justified comment (in my opinion).
The context I originally meant was when soldiers themselves use having deployed to Afghanistan/Iraq in arguments that don't have anything to do with the role they played overseas.  


I see the having been to Afghanistan/having not been to Afghanistan as starting to develop a wedge between some soldiers.
For example, soldiers using whether or not an NCO/Officer has been to Afghanistan as a measure of their leadership abilities.  Leaders have deployed who were idiots and being overseas hasn't seemed to given them any great insight- yet some people still foster a stigma about it.
It's also puts a stigma on soldiers who haven't been there too. I've seen it really weight on guys shoulders that they "missed" Afghanistan.   I see the "If you haven't been there, shut up" attitude even if said in jest driving an unhealthy wedge between troops.



			
				Hurricane said:
			
		

> It somewhat saddens me to say, but I believe I know the gentleman you are talking about.


Pretty embarrassing isn't it.


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## bridges (29 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It's also puts a stigma on soldiers who haven't been there too. I've seen it really weight on guys shoulders that they "missed" Afghanistan.



Not just Afghanistan - deployments in general.  My whole career was spent in Canada and I definitely notice what you're speaking of.


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## Jungle (29 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It's also puts a stigma on soldiers who haven't been there too. I've seen it really weight on guys shoulders that they "missed" Afghanistan.   I see the "If you haven't been there, shut up" attitude even if said in jest driving an unhealthy wedge between troops.
> Pretty embarrassing isn't it.



There's those that "missed" it, but I know some who "avoided" it. In those cases, I don't mind the wedge.


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## 2 Cdo (29 Jun 2012)

Jungle said:
			
		

> There's those that "missed" it, but I know some who "avoided" it. In those cases, I don't mind the wedge.



I also knew a few that "extended" their  stay in non-deployable positions, and when they were finally posted back to battalion chose to take their release rather than deploy.


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## Strike (29 Jun 2012)

Then there are those who feel that the way things were done in Afghanistan/deployment are the only way to do things.  That's when the appropriate response would be, "This isn't Afghanistan, so shut up!".


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jun 2012)

Four pages of rehash from previous topics.

Everyone seems somewhat in agreement.

Do we really need to make it five pages?


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## the 48th regulator (29 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Four pages of rehash from previous topics.
> 
> Everyone seems somewhat in agreement.
> 
> Do we really need to make it five pages?




I agree.  However, I wanted to break the  page mark with this post.

I had an uncle that like watching MASH, does that give me street cred?


dileas

tess


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## Journeyman (29 Jun 2012)

John Tescione said:
			
		

> .....does that give me street cred?


From what I've read here, cred (and knowledge of all things tactical/strategic) comes _only_ from being an ex-RCR Cpl with one Afghan tour.  


...so, like, shut up OK.   



...besides, your cred is sitting in the War Museum   ;D


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## Sythen (29 Jun 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> From what I've read here, cred (and knowledge of all things tactical/strategic) comes _only_ from being an ex-RCR Cpl with one Afghan tour.
> 
> 
> ...so, like, shut up OK.
> ...



Love having words put in my mouth. I really hate using the ignore function, as in my view it is an extreme. Heck, even Redeye, whom I disagree with fundamentally on almost every issue isn't on my ignore, because once in a while he says something that makes me think. You, on the other hand, are just a useless troll. You never add anything useful to discussions and you're generally just an idiot. Congratulations on being the first, and probably only, person I will add to my ignore list.


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## Journeyman (29 Jun 2012)

...and not a tear was shed.


[...and yes, you clicked on it to check despite the <ignore>     ]


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## Petard (29 Jun 2012)

...and a wedge is the simplest tool known to man
Obviously very applicable for this discussion


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## GAP (29 Jun 2012)

Petard said:
			
		

> ...and a wedge wedgee is the simplest tool known to man
> Obviously very applicable for this discussion



TFTFY  ;D


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## 57Chevy (29 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> And it doesn't matter what you are arguing about or discussing,  as long as you've been to Afghanistan or Iraq you probably know more. People just don't understand, man.



Considering freedom of speech and all that, they can keep it.
I think the picture sucks the big haughty one because it completely disregards any and all support troops.

It should read: If you've been to or supported Iraq/Afghanistan then join in and Speak Up.  
(it just might entice conversation) ;D


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## Maxadia (29 Jun 2012)

What's the difference between this and "you haven't earned your cap badge yet, so shut up"?

Because I've seen that for the littlest things.


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## the 48th regulator (29 Jun 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> What's the difference between this and "you haven't earned your cap badge yet, so shut up"?
> 
> Because I've seen that for the littlest things.



Because using the "Shuddup" shut down in that situation, is appropriate.

dileas

tess


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## cupper (29 Jun 2012)

> Re: If you haven't been to Afghanistan shut up.
> « Reply #81 on: Today at 08:13:19 »
> 
> Quote
> ...



Try Aldershot. :nod:


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## cupper (29 Jun 2012)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Considering freedom of speech and all that, they can keep it.



However, with that freedom comes the requirement to exercise that right responsibly.


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## Maxadia (30 Jun 2012)

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Because using the "Shuddup" shut down in that situation, is appropriate.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Of course....because if someone didn't go through the EXACT same experiences that you have, they have no clue about anything - right?  >


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## dogger1936 (30 Jun 2012)

Coulda been worse John Brother....coulda happened in a LSVW! ;D


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## FormerHorseGuard (1 Jul 2012)

As everyone knows by my  log in name I am former soldier. I do not know what it is like  any where else in the world to be a soldier collecting my pay cheque other than the following places, Petawawa, Toronto, Borden, Ipperwash ( the final summer camp) among other short term postings.
Did Canada do the right thing by going to Afghanistan? I do not know. Did Canada do the wrong thing by  going to Afghanistan? I do not know. Did Canada as a nation have to stand up and do something to help prevent the spread of terrorism, help in the over throw of a government that enforced rules and laws that  we Canadians think are unfair and inhumane? Yes we had to do something for the people. That is what I know.

As for the bumper stickers , If you do not stand behind the troops stand in front of them or word to that  effect. Or my daddy fights for your freedom I sort of agree with the thoughts behind them. Former soldiers and current serving soldiers (  no disrespect to airmen and sailors , using soldiers as a general term ) do the jobs that  most people would not want to do or even think about doing, unless it looks like fun. Sailors get to do the cool high speed turns in the middle of the ocean and visit various countries with beautiful white sand beaches. ( Some of those beaches have people waiting to bring harm and hurt to the same sailors when they  are bringing food and meds to those in need. Airmen all get to take the latest aircraft home for weekend flights to play  golf or get  to do the airshow PR game and meet and greet with people from all over the country. The same aircrew also gets the call in the middle of the night to go look for a downed aircraft that lost is way in a storm or ran out of fuel, or the aircrew has to go and hunt down and ID an unknow aircraft entering Canadian airspace, or escort Santa Claus across Canadian airspace. This does not include the fun night jumps for the SAR Techs on to a waste land of ice or being lowered downa  steel cable in a pitching sea to rescue some one in distress. As for the army  guys we get to go mudding in our 4x4s and bigger trucks, get to shoot machine guns and eat cool food that  the average joe goes to a camping store and pays big bucks for and pretends he or she is eating army  food for the weekend camping trip. But those are the people who forget when Canadians ( or part time Canadians )get stranded in war zones, the army  guy is the one protecting them as they get a free ride to what ever the means of escape is out of the war zone. 

How do I know this, because I have seen it all second hand and some of it first hand, ( only seen the fun stuff first hand) the hard stuff I have only seen on the all news channels and heard about it over a beer in a mess hall or bar ( hell even heard how tough it is from people who pretend to of done it all) 
I am proud of my  friends who served, and who are still serving, but I have no bumper sticker on my  suv, just happy knowing the troops are ready willing and able to do the job when the call comes. No matter the call, snow storm, ice storm, Search and Rescue, Native protestings, or a full scale military operation like a small war in a distant land.


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## TN2IC (4 Jul 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> We need a more Canadian version - Wainwright and Meaford.



Hey man, I remember catching my first tumble weed in Wainwright. I chased it with an Iltis and stuck a POW tag on it. That's pretty good of me, coming from the Maritimes. Such foreign culture out west. When I mean out west, that's Gagetown and beyond.  ;D


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