# Weapons Infractions Anyone?!



## the patriot (3 Nov 2000)

This was brought up in the Old War Diary, but was recently brought again to my attention:

Hi There, 
Just wondering if I could get someone‘s help out here.
Just recently on a training day, one of my co-soldiers
poked his rifle into my back and said, "There, now something‘s moving up your ass...."... the senior NCO and officer were not present during this.... Granted the weapon was not loaded with ammo, nor was there a bolt in the rifle....... My question is..... how do I redress this behavior and what rights do I have...?!! 

pepperpot
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There was loads of advice given to this guy on the Old War Diary, but my question is this.  Would you press criminal charges against the individual who did this to "pepperpot" if you were his Commanding Officer?!


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## Michael Dorosh (3 Nov 2000)

I always thought weapons safety was taught right in basic training - ie always treating a weapon as loaded and thus never pointed at anyone (or used in the manner described).  Even so, wouldn‘t you have to look at the individual involved and decide if he was a good troop that allowed himself to get lax with his personal discipline, or a habitual troublemaker with no respect for the safety of himself and others - and deal with the situation with that in mind?

In the first case, wouldn‘t a first step be for a verbal warning and/or counselling, rather than disciplinary action?


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## RCA (3 Nov 2000)

First instincts would be to take the asshole outside and have a chat with him. However being the professional I am the next think to decide what would be the consequences. I take this is a jr NCM who therefore has two choices. Report it or not. He has the right to take it higher for displinary action. He also can look after it himself by informing the individual that next time he does that to himself or anyone else that individual will be walking around with a rilfe butt sticking out of his ass.
  However for those of us in authority, weapons infractions can not be tolerated. It makes no difference whether it is a "good troop or not". At a minimum a verbal warning but I would lean towards a recorded warning so everyone gets the message.


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## the patriot (3 Nov 2000)

Here‘s the kicker though, the guy who did this to "pepperpot" was never disciplined and is now on build-up training for the next rotation with 1RCR going to Kosovo. Furthermore, this man has had a history of undisciplined behaviour.  How would you deal with this?!

-the patriot-


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## JRMACDONALD (3 Nov 2000)

This is a case of "hey. stupid".
 Knockle on to him/her and sort them out ( non - violently, i hope!) (don‘t like that nonsense, myself)This is, simply, aa case of , people who should know, don‘t!!!!!!!!!
RCA - thanks, all problems in the force  occur at the JRNCM level!!
thepatriot- redress system has been in for a LONG time. Perrhaps, you aren‘t aware it changed appox 4 months ago!
the patriot- If he has a "history" of undisciplined behaviour,how did he get past the Res F screening!!!????( It has to be  recorded on paper, not "corporate memory"!)


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## bossi (3 Nov 2000)

My answer may not be perfect, but this is an interesting situation - even though we‘ve only heard one side of the story ... (no, I‘m not playing "devil‘s advocate" - I‘m just leery of finding somebody guilty, in absentia, having heard only partial, hearsay evidence)

On a "recruit" course a while back, I was given the task of teaching the period on harassment (the logic being that we would demonstrate how serious we were on this subject by having the course commander teach the period).  As you may recall from my recent posts, however, I get frustrated when "trendy, politically correct" agendas usurp our traditional, tried and true methods (however ... I digress).

I did my best to make sure I got the point across, and tried to give them clear, straightforward examples of how to deal with a bully "by the book" (in a nutshell, the first step would be to stand up for yourself and tell them you didn‘t appreciate being bullied, or harassed as it‘s called today.  The second step would be to enlist the help of your friends, either if the bully persisted or if you were too afraid of the bully to deliver the initial message yourself - this alerts your friends to the situation, so they can look out for you ... ).

Anyway, we were amazed at the events which unfolded shortly afterwards - it turns out a younger, smaller member of the course had been the target of some bullying, but she was able to bring it to an abrupt halt when she enlisted the help of a couple of the biggest guys on the course - Presto!  The bullying stopped, and candidate esprit de corps surged upwards when they realised they were really a team, looking out for each other ... just the same way they‘d have to do it on the battlefield (where the only harassing that belongs is fire directed at the enemy)!!!

So, what‘s my point?

First step would be to directly tell the offending person to stop.
Second step would be to get some help from your friends, either to deliver the message (if you were too intimidated to do so yourself), plus this helps you corroborate your story (i.e. obtain witnesses, but be careful - "two wrongs don‘t make a right").
Third step is to tell somebody higher up - if your immediate superior is involved, you have to ensure the message is heard even higher - by the way, most units have an exceptionally "willing ear" in the form of their padre (and a clever padre can, in turn, discretely whisper in the right ears without compromising ethical or legal rules, i.e. "... you might want to keep an eye on ..."  is all it takes to make certain the right person gets the message - it‘s not that difficult to do "diplomatically", a.k.a. "no names, no pack drill" ...).

And, while it all sounds so wonderfully simple, and it seems obvious justice and right should prevail, the unfortunate truth is that all of us are only human - try as we might, sometimes "life just isn‘t fair" (heck - sometimes when I‘m feeling down I wonder whether somebody nominated me as poster child for "life isn‘t fair" ... chuckle).

If the problem can not be resolved, and the offending person does not get their "just desserts", I guess the final decision is whether you want to go in harm‘s way with this person in your unit (personally, I would not want to always be "watching my back").

Feel free to e-mail me directly if anything I‘ve said is confusing, and I will try to clarify my opinion (if it‘s of any use to you).

Dileas Gu Brath,
M.A. Bossi, Esquire


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## Mud Crawler (7 Nov 2000)

If i was was an officer and saw it happen or if pepperpot reported it to me I‘d file a complaint.You never know if that rifle is loaded or not and it might actually degenerate further down the line.I would make sure that individual isn‘t a member of the Res F anymore.


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## JRMACDONALD (7 Nov 2000)

The more  I read of this,the more I see this as harassment vs. "weapons infraction" ( are we talking QR&O/Criminal Code/"common sense"?). The procedures for identifying/ investigating/ resolving harassment are pretty clear.


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## the patriot (17 Nov 2000)

All of this makes a lot of sense, yet aside from the written warning for the offending party; would any of you go as far as taking this idiot of build-up training for the next roto to Kosovo?!  On civy street, this would be a clear cut assault charge and/or a criminal charge of wrongfully pointing a weapon etc.  Since this is the case, where would pepperpot go next with a system that likes to cover shit up than confront and release the bastard and give him a criminal record?!!!!

-the patriot-

P.S. if any of you have kids, i don‘t think you would fathom the 
      thought of someone doing this to your child; then why would
      you let it happen to your troops?!


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## RCA (28 Nov 2000)

The more I read this the more I become concerned. First of I agree this has the potential of being a serious problem. However a lot of us are jumping to conlusions ready to hang this person without knowing all the facts. Such as is this the first time this has happened, is there a pattern of harressment between these two, is this a problem child or and isloated incident of stupidy. Is this a pte or cpl. Was this in garrison,the field, or on a SA range.. Each varible changes what the incident is and what should happen. Has never us been a young and stupid before. We should not be so quick to get rid of people. I am a firm believer that 99% of the idiot brigade is salvagabe and that is one of our jobs as WO and SNCOs, It is not to wash our hands of the problem and get rid of them. (especially in the reserves. we need all the peole we can get and if there is a reakdown in displine it is our faiult not theirs.) This is why we have investigations to sort out the facts, reach the proper conclusion, and hand out the right punishment. 
 And one last point( and I agree I don‘t know all the circumstances) is that some time you must stand up for yourself and let people know the certain behavior is not accetable to you and you will not tolerate it. Being a whiner is worse that being stupid.


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## JRMACDONALD (28 Nov 2000)

RCA- HOO-RAH! I hope this sums up this post.


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## bossi (29 Nov 2000)

stumbled across this comment from somebody whose experience might be respected more than my personal opinion:

"Discipline can only be obtained when all the officers are imbued with the sense of their awful obligation to their men and to their country that they cannot tolerate negligence. Officers who fail to correct errors or to praise excellence are valueless in peace and dangerous misfits in war." 

- Gen. George S. Patton, Jr.


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## ocknod (7 Dec 2000)

As we all know weapons infractions are of a serious nature.  I was teaching on a recruit course and came upon a troop sticking the barrel of a c-7 is someone‘s ear.   The bolt was out of the weapon and no mag was attaced, but still took the whole thing to the old man and he delt with it....the recruit was never seen again.   

I still however am a firm believer in Barrack Block Justice.  If it‘s a problem in the shacks let the troops handle it....The lad slips in the shower or falls down the stairs over and over again I say that justice is served.  Good for unit co-heason as well

SECURITAS
ocknod


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## JRMACDONALD (10 Dec 2000)

ocknod-- SECURITAS!!???  Wpn infractions are serious, but barrack room beatings AREN‘T!!!!!  You , obviously, haven‘t been on the receiving end of ONE!!!   Sorry, I thought  MEATHEADS were , supposed to enforce the QR&O , not FORCE it!


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## RCA (10 Dec 2000)

I agree with Mac. You turn a blind eye to blanket parties etc. you are passing your authourity over too someone else and breeding a unit of thugs. It is not good for unit cohesion when you let the biggest JrNCMs rule the roost. Sometimes I agree that that playing pokey chest gets things done but the troops must know that there is a line drawn at physical beatings that can‘t be crossed and won‘t be toleated.

Ubique


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## Shabadoo (10 Dec 2000)

Just to be Devil‘s advocat; after being an infantry soldier for 10 years I‘d have to say that I routinely point things out with my weapon and have on occasion used my weapon to poke or prod people (normally to get their attention but occasionaly out of anger). For those wondering about their rank, they were either of higher or lower rank and may or may not have been loaded with live or blank. I didn‘t notice that I was guilty of this until I read this thread, but then again no one has ever complained either. Now that I think about it could it be caused by the trust earned by each soldier as they become more experienced with their weapons. In the infantry where you routinely share physical hardships with your peers in any type of environment. It takes a long time in this trade to earn the respect of your peers and ironicaly as it is so difficult to obtain it is tremendously simple to lose. When you eat, sleep, shoot, shave, shoot, shit, shoot, etc... with your weapon it tends to become an extension of your arm. Personally I don‘t see the danger in pointing a wepon at some one. A weapon doesn‘t go off by itself. End of story.


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## ocknod (11 Dec 2000)

Yes our job is to enforce the QR&O‘s but nine times out of ten the charges go up to the old man and the young chap or chapette gets the old 50 dollar fine and a boatload of extras.  My point is a unit that takes care of it‘s own, tends to be a more cohesive unit.  I can‘t tell you how many times I‘ve been called to sort out some little shack trouble that 1)the punishment doesn‘t fit the crime or 2) the complainant ends up getting the worst of it getting the "blade" tag put on him.  Now I‘m not saying that weapons infractions are not a serious offence, but the problem can be nipped in the but by a good corporal or master jack asserting himself and getting the point out that this shit won‘t happen in my section.  Sometimes gentlemen the only way to get into the head of some of thes cluster_**cks is to have a little CHAT.  You know what I‘m saying.


OCKNOD
SECURITAS


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## JRMACDONALD (12 Dec 2000)

OCKNOD- if you ARE talking about TALKING, FINE! I just get this impression , from you,that Physical correction is acceptable. ( kinda like that SHIDANE kid in Somaila)(YOUR LAST POST!!!!?HUH!!!!?)


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## ocknod (12 Dec 2000)

My goodness!  everything in your unitsis by the books and all incidents are passed up the chains huh...  Come ON! unless your all in the combat boot repair battalion then is always inter-unit dicipline.   Some body steps out he is corrected, if he makes the rest of the platoon look bad, it‘s adjusted, if he maes the section fuck up he is adjusted.  You guys must work in wonderful units with no probelms...give me a break!

OCKNOD
SECURITAS


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## RCA (12 Dec 2000)

We are moving off topic here but this a can of worms being opened here.

One of the basic of jobs of NCOs is the maintaince of good order and discipline and ANY NCO worth his salt will take that seriously. (as stated in my previous posts if he gives that up and passes it on to mob justice he should resign because he is not doing what he is paid for) In the combat arms units, unit cohersion is built on team work. Everyone makes mistakes and that what makes us human. Sometimes there are individuals that need a straigtning out. It is for the leadership (NCOs)to determine whether he gets a blast of shit., warnings or charges... not his so called buddies. From my experince must "falling down the stairs" incidents etc are beacuse that person tends to be an asshole and not well liked anyway and him fucking up is only an excuse to "get even". A guy who is liked but fucks up constantly usually survives. What you advocate is punisment not discpline and if you can‘t tell the difference you shouldn‘t be around troops. And by the way my unit runs well without the "barracks room justice".


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## JRMACDONALD (12 Dec 2000)

RCA- ON TARGET! FIRE FOR EFFECT!


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## ocknod (12 Dec 2000)

Fair enough, good debate....But let‘s not stry too far off topic and remember that I did say that weapons infractions were intolerrable and that person should be dealt with severely, administratively that is....


OCKNOD
SECURITAS


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