# RCAF cites "Labour Shortage" In Hiring Foreign Pilots



## George Wallace (23 Jun 2014)

The debate on foreign workers has now opened up questions on CAF hiring practices.  What is overlooked in this article, is the number of Canadian pilots who leave the RCAF and head over to 'greener' pastures in other Commonwealth and Allied nation's air forces.


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


LINK



> THE STAR
> 
> Air force hiring foreign pilots to fly front-line jets
> 
> ...





More on LINK.


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## DAA (23 Jun 2014)

The elite of the Middle East hire all our Pilots.....especially the ones who fly the Challengers.

http://skiesmag.com/news/article/CanucksinCairo


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## Journeyman (23 Jun 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Royal Canadian Air Force cites a “labour shortage”


Well, there goes the pilot-wannabe Recruiting threads again......   >


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## Rocky Mountains (23 Jun 2014)

We are not fighting a war and not one pilot is truly critical to national security.  The body of trained airmen is critical to the long-term viability of the forces, not whether a particular aircraft flies Tuesday morning.  Somebody wearing blue needs a talking to.  Training is probably more important than doing.


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jun 2014)

A air reserve squadron flying lightly armed hawks would solve this issue.


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## DonaldMcL (23 Jun 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> A air reserve squadron flying lightly armed hawks would solve this issue.



What issue? The overall lack of experience of CF Pilots being filled by hiring a handful of experienced pilots from other countries? I fail to see the issue.


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## George Wallace (23 Jun 2014)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> We are not fighting a war and not one pilot is truly critical to national security.  The body of trained airmen is critical to the long-term viability of the forces, not whether a particular aircraft flies Tuesday morning.  Somebody wearing blue needs a talking to.  Training is probably more important than doing.




I think you missed the point.  Training is only good if you have experienced people to conduct it.  If you don't have the experience, what lessons are you teaching?


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## MilEME09 (23 Jun 2014)

Now I could be wrong but the way I heard this story was that the RCAF is meeting its quotas for new pilots, and the main issue is that many of it's experienced pilots have left and these pilots from Europe (mostly) have been brought on as instructors to have the experience there to train the new pilots. Why not give them some flight hours while at it?


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jun 2014)

Hence the reason for an air reserve squadron equipped with smaller jets with some armament which would allow you to keep and maintain pilots who have transferred to civy street. I talked to a number of pilots that went for the bigger salaries but missed the flying they did in the Forces.


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## Rocky Mountains (23 Jun 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Hence the reason for an air reserve squadron equipped with smaller jets with some armament which would allow you to keep and maintain pilots who have transferred to civy street. I talked to a number of pilots that went for the bigger salaries but missed the flying they did in the Forces.



What??  An American style military??  I am not sure if they still do but the Air National Guard used to train pilots from scratch as in George W. Bush.


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## Loachman (23 Jun 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Hence the reason for an air reserve squadron equipped with smaller jets with some armament which would allow you to keep and maintain pilots who have transferred to civy street. I talked to a number of pilots that went for the bigger salaries but missed the flying they did in the Forces.



What does this accomplish, and how?

The airline guys tend to live where there are large civ airports that are too busy to sustain military ops, and are also in noise-sensitive areas. This proposed Squadron would need some infrastructure, which tends to be challenging to find and/or fund in such places. That includes hangars and office space, and, as you suggested armament, arming/de-arming areas and suitable ranges. Yes, there may be areas around various large cities that could benefit from a good strafing run or six, but somebody would probably object.

Suitable military aerodromes tend to be in places lacking in reasonably-large civ/ex-CF Pilot populations.

And what would their role(s) be? If there is no useful purpose, there is no justification.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Jun 2014)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> We are not fighting a war and not one pilot is truly critical to national security.  The body of trained airmen is critical to the long-term viability of the forces, not whether a particular aircraft flies Tuesday morning.  Somebody wearing blue needs a talking to.  Training is probably more important than doing.



I'm going to guess you've never worked at an operational sqn before.   

Don't be too rash to make judgements based on a 'tip of the iceberg' perspective from a news article; this likely has more to do with "adding to the story/controversy about the hiring foreign workers' stuff on the go now than it does anything; i.e. its "good news" to keep a story going.  I work with aircrew from a few different countries, and IMO the experience they bring to the table just adds to the RCAF capabilities.  The British scrapped the entire Nimrod fleet.  The guys who crewed those have oodles of experience doing what LRP does, as an example.  Take a look at the RAAF and you'll see some "born in Canada" aircrew, who were flying for the RCAF before.  This isn't a new thing, just a "news" thing.

I don't see an issue (as a taxpayer or RCAF type), that's my 'from the inside looking out' perspective as a line sqn dude.  When I'm along for the ride 200' doing 60 and 2s, I don't really much care what country the guys and gals on the Flight Deck were born and raised in.  There's way more important things at times like that.

I'd be curious to know when this information was "discovered".  Was it today?  Or before the recent change in policy on foreign workers that is part of the 'weekly news buzz'?  

 :2c:


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## dimsum (23 Jun 2014)

After reading that article, I wonder if those pilots Canada "hired" are actually just exchange officers?  I remember seeing a pic from Combat Camera a while back about a French exchange fighter pilot, and I wonder if the Hungarian guy is part of the NATO training component in Moose Jaw.  If I recall, LRP sqns have exchange folks (USN, RAF, etc.) regularly.


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Jun 2014)

No, we have hired a reasonable number of ex military pilots from other countries.

Instead of spending 20 years and literally millions of dollars, we get an experienced air leader for the cost of annual salary.

Pretty good deal, if you ask me.


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## dimsum (23 Jun 2014)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> No, we have hired a reasonable number of ex military pilots from other countries.
> 
> Instead of spending 20 years and literally millions of dollars, we get an experienced air leader for the cost of annual salary.
> 
> Pretty good deal, if you ask me.



Really...

I think it's high time to reverse-recruit folks from the Australian Defence Force.  They already think that Canada is an imaginary land of cheap food, good drinks and amazing snow sports, and my occasional (ok, constant) FB posts about Victoria and Comox have already convinced some RAAF P-3 friends to come visit.   >


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## SeaKingTacco (24 Jun 2014)

In many cases, the guys we are hiring (experience-wise) are replacing the ones who did not get recruited in the mid to late 90s and when the pilot production mill failed to meet targets in the early 2000s.

There is no Canadian source for a guy/gal with 15-20 years of military flight experience...except for the CF.

These guys are not displacing Canadians from getting recruited and hired at the front end of the mill as 2LTs.


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## The_Falcon (24 Jun 2014)

The article is misleading  on a number of fronts (no surprise there  : ) Since the Toronto RC process all these people, I saw quite a few come through 1) The CAF isn't having trouble filling slots for pilot training, what we are lacking (as others have noted) is qualified instructors, and almost without exception their first posting is an instructor billet.  2) They are not coming over as "Temporary Foreign Workers", they are coming over as conditional permanent residents (or whatever the proper term is), and they sign an agreement that they will obtain their citizenship in a specified time frame.  3) I posted the specific numbers (obtained via a FOI request) in another thread, the actual annual number of these pilots is like less than 20 per year IIRC.  

The process for these guys is very long as they not only have to go through ALL the hoops for enrollment (CFAT, interviews, Aircrew Medical, Pre-Sec Clearance), they have to go through a concurrent process with Immigration as well (and quite a few are still in their national military, so they have to work all this around their schedules there).  

Definately NOT the same as Temporary Foreign Workers.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jun 2014)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> If I recall, LRP sqns have exchange folks (USN, RAF, etc.) regularly.



Still the case; USN, RAF, RAAF at our Sqn.  My skipper is RAAF and not only a great pilot, a great Officer as well.


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Jun 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> What does this accomplish, and how?
> 
> The airline guys tend to live where there are large civ airports that are too busy to sustain military ops, and are also in noise-sensitive areas. This proposed Squadron would need some infrastructure, which tends to be challenging to find and/or fund in such places. That includes hangars and office space, and, as you suggested armament, arming/de-arming areas and suitable ranges. Yes, there may be areas around various large cities that could benefit from a good strafing run or six, but somebody would probably object.
> 
> ...



The current "fix" while being a good idea is yelling at everyone that our system is broken, you need a way to keep pilots connected to the job and having a reserve squadron which they can go to to maintain those skills is one of the ways to do it and at lesser costs than the larger aircraft. Once we get a new fleet of aircraft which hopefully will have a higher in service rate the demands for pilots is likely to increase.


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## George Wallace (24 Jun 2014)

This is not a current "fix".  It is a recent case of "fill a column on a slow news day".

This practice has been going on for decades among all our allies.  We have accepted experienced pilots from foreign nations for decades, just as we have seen Canadian pilots migrate to foreign air forces.   We have always had the problem of skilled pilots accepting positions at civilian airlines.  

As for Reservists filling flying positions.  Again, old news.  Perhaps not as prevalent today as it was years ago, but I knew a Reservist in Fredericton, who flew ASW missions out of Greenwood as a Air Reserve pilot.  Perhaps he was a rare case, but it does show that there are possibilities.  However, the usual problems with Reservists still persist; availability.


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## PanaEng (24 Jun 2014)

the irony of a guy who immigrated to Canada complaining about the foreign worker program...
(Gilles Hudicourt, the pilot quoted in the CBC article)

http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/gilles-hudicourt/41/358/59a


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Jun 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is not a current "fix".  It is a recent case of "fill a column on a slow news day".
> 
> This practice has been going on for decades among all our allies.  We have accepted experienced pilots from foreign nations for decades, just as we have seen Canadian pilots migrate to foreign air forces.   We have always had the problem of skilled pilots accepting positions at civilian airlines.
> 
> As for Reservists filling flying positions.  Again, old news.  Perhaps not as prevalent today as it was years ago, but I knew a Reservist in Fredericton, who flew ASW missions out of Greenwood as a Air Reserve pilot.  Perhaps he was a rare case, but it does show that there are possibilities.  However, the usual problems with Reservists still persist; availability.



Except that according to this article the RCAF claimed a shortage of qualified pilots as the reason behind the offer. Therefore it is being marketed as a fix. I am all for exchange programs as a way to improve training and coordination. But when it's to fix holes in our experience base,, then it's a sign of other problems.


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## George Wallace (24 Jun 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Except that according to this article the RCAF claimed a shortage of qualified pilots as the reason behind the offer. Therefore it is being marketed as a fix. I am all for exchange programs as a way to improve training and coordination. But when it's to fix holes in our experience base,, then it's a sign of other problems.



All that has been covered in previous posts.

A shortage in qualified pilots, does not indicate a current shortage in recruiting new pilots, but a shortage to experienced pilots with the flying hours and appropriate combat/ASW/etc. experience to instruct or mentor new pilots.  The shortage at that level, as was previously posted, is due to lower recruitment in previous decades and the natural attrition of pilots leaving for greener pastures.

As has been posted previously, it is not a "fix" that is new, but a policy that has been going on for decades.   Again, not really news.




			
				SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> In many cases, the guys we are hiring (experience-wise) are replacing the ones who did not get recruited in the mid to late 90s and when the pilot production mill failed to meet targets in the early 2000s.
> 
> There is no Canadian source for a guy/gal with 15-20 years of military flight experience...except for the CF.
> 
> These guys are not displacing Canadians from getting recruited and hired at the front end of the mill as 2LTs.


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## Loachman (24 Jun 2014)

We are still seeing the effects of the Decade of Darkness FRP and recruiting freeze. This helps a little with that.

We have also introduced three new fleets in the past few years, so adding people with operational experience on those has major benefit.

We've picked up a small number of ex-RAF Chinook pilots, for example.


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## DAA (24 Jun 2014)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> the irony of a guy who immigrated to Canada complaining about the foreign worker program...
> (Gilles Hudicourt, the pilot quoted in the CBC article)
> 
> http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/gilles-hudicourt/41/358/59a



He is absolutely correct, where he is quoted as saying "He said the immigration rules are meant to permit organizations to hire abroad to fill a labour need “when there is no qualified Canadians to do the job,” Hudicourt said."

It's obvious he can fly aircraft based on his resume/experience but he doesn't meet the education eligibility requirements to be a Commissioned Officer in the CF because he doesn't have an "undergrad" degree.  Therefore, he "isn't qualified" to be an Officer.    :facepalm:


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## dapaterson (24 Jun 2014)

The RCAF does accept a limited number of CEOTP candidates as pilots each year.  So the lack of a degree is not necessarily a show-stopper.

(Of course, if we want to contineu with our embrace of all things from the past, we could return to having flying Sgts; essentailly, split the pilot occupation into Officers and NCMs; officers would have degrees and command and fly a bit; NCMs would have wings and fly a lot.)


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## curious22 (7 Aug 2014)

Seems to be more CEOTP candidates coming on stream. If your desire is to be a pilot, you cant beat it. Come out of High School, attend basic training and get commissioned 2LT right away, start PFT and THEN go to Seneca as a commissoned officer. If I am wrong about this path, please correct me.

Seems kind of unfair to the RMC/Civvy U guys that attened schooling FIRST at lowly Officer Cadet pay then get commissioned 2LT after graduation.

CEOTP seems like quite the sweet deal as 2LT pay for a 19 year old is pretty good.


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## dimsum (7 Aug 2014)

curious22 said:
			
		

> Seems to be more CEOTP candidates coming on stream. If your desire is to be a pilot, you cant beat it. Come out of High School, attend basic training and get commissioned 2LT right away, start PFT and THEN go to Seneca as a commissoned officer. If I am wrong about this path, please correct me.
> 
> Seems kind of unfair to the RMC/Civvy U guys that attened schooling FIRST at lowly Officer Cadet pay then get commissioned 2LT after graduation.
> 
> CEOTP seems like quite the sweet deal as 2LT pay for a 19 year old is pretty good.



Except that in CEOTP, you need to somehow make time to do your degree when you're also doing other stuff such as flight training or being on squadron, while in ROTP you are literally being paid to go to school.  I'm not sure if the Seneca program covers all that is required for education.


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## DAA (7 Aug 2014)

CEOTP-AEAD Pilot is a "very" structured program which takes 4 years to complete (full details are on the DWAN at the 2 Cdn Air Div, Air Force Pilot Training Website)

BMOQ, Ph 1 Flt Trg, Seneca Semesters 1 and 2, Ph 2 and 3 Flt Trg, Seneca Semesters 3,4 and 5 graduating with a Bachelors in Aviation Technology Undergrad Degree, posted to an OTU.

And successful applicants into the program, are paid at "Pay Level B" on the GSO Scale.


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## Ostrozac (7 Aug 2014)

Yes, the CEOTP Seneca option is an absolutely great deal -- but it is fairly high risk. If you wash out of Pilot training in ROTP, you are still an ROTP OCdt, and there is the possibility to reclassify to another MOSID. If you wash out of Pilot training in CEOTP Seneca, well, quite frankly very few occupations are hiring CEOTP right now. You might just be hitting the street, with a partial education in a profession that you're no longer involved in.


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## curious22 (7 Aug 2014)

Agree with the "high risk" statement. Wonder how it will turn out being that those CEOTP Seneca people are under a lot of pressure at a fairly young age (19 years or so). At least the ROTP people, for the most part have matured a little after 4 years of university and have learned under that education on how to handle pressure, time management etc. You dont have that same situation in high school.

Would love to know the statistics of how successful the CEOTP people are compared to ROTP or if there is little difference.


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## dimsum (9 Aug 2014)

curious22 said:
			
		

> Agree with the "high risk" statement. Wonder how it will turn out being that those CEOTP Seneca people are under a lot of pressure at a fairly young age (19 years or so). At least the ROTP people, for the most part have matured a little after 4 years of university and have learned under that education on how to handle pressure, time management etc. You dont have that same situation in high school.
> 
> Would love to know the statistics of how successful the CEOTP people are compared to ROTP or if there is little difference.



Compared to DEO, I would agree.  Compared to ROTP, I don't think there's that much of an age difference as the first phase of training (for whatever occupation) is after second or third year (so, ages 20-21).


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