# Fatal Car Accident at CFB Esquimalt last night



## yak (14 Aug 2008)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

ONE PERSON DEAD AFTER CAR CRASHES INTO WATER OFF ESQUIMALT NAVAL BASE
Aug 14, 2008

THERE'S BEEN A FATAL ACCIDENT OVERNIGHT ON THE ESQUIMALT NAVAL BASE. 

POLICE SAY A CAR LEFT THE ROAD AND CRASHED INTO THE WATER OFF NADEN STREET SHORTLY AFTER 1:00AM THIS MORNING. 

THE INCIDENT OCCURRED ON CANADIAN FORCES PROPERTY, BUT VICPD SAYS IT HAS MEMBERS ON THE SCENE ASSISTING MILITARY POLICE. 

ONE SURVIVOR WAS TAKEN TO HOSPITAL. THEIR CONDITION IS NOT KNOWN. 

THE NADEN GATE AT CFB ESQUIMALT WAS CLOSED OFF AS INVESTIGATORS COLLECTED EVIDENCE.

- ADAM STIRLING

http://www.cfax1070.com/newsstory.php?newsId=6049


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## Disenchantedsailor (14 Aug 2008)

I'm on leave right now any news on names are are they still being withheld for obvious reasons


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## yak (14 Aug 2008)

No names in the press yet, I'd say that it will take some time depending on where the NOK are located.

The gate has re-opened according to CFAX radio reporting.  I haven't seen this story in any other outlet save the local news radio.


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## armyca08 (14 Aug 2008)

yak said:
			
		

> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> ONE PERSON DEAD AFTER CAR CRASHES INTO WATER OFF ESQUIMALT NAVAL BASE
> Aug 14, 2008
> ...



All this seems to demonstrate the relatively light security at CFBes. You'd expct a multigate system with the ability to stop cars (caltrops or spikes) or some type of deployable barrier that needs to be opened, but then again why pay if you have nothing there that one car could damage other than the gate.. but what if it was loaded with explosives, or a chemical weapon?  I geuss Canadian military bases are only medium security by the sounds of this - although CFB northbay appears as light security -although this could just be an obvious misconception. 

Although I'm geussing calling ahead and notifing the bases of class trips etc.. lets the security there know who to expect to enter the base - a little different than people just showing up.

Unfortunate that someone died, and the person crashed into the ocean - although if the guy was killed and the car dumped in the ocean as a cover up.. I geuss only a few people would ever know. It'd be nice to know why it happened, and who the person was. Like why crash into a military base - unless it is to demonstrate that it can be done.

I would dare say one person with a semi could take out a unit or two of people before being stopped, it appears very light security minus all the military personnel walking around - but they don't appear armed, is not having armed gaurds posted to gates really a good call by the CF.. or perhaps this is just a security arangement I'm not aware of, like having system that other people don't know about for perimiter defence.


It is freaky being on a base though after you pass the warning sign - it is like at any time you can now be stripped searched for ammusment.


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## Bob Terwilliger (14 Aug 2008)

Naden Street is not anywhere near the water..........


http://maps.google.ca/maps?um=1&hl=en&q=naden%20street%20victoria&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il


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## Quag (14 Aug 2008)

armyca08 said:
			
		

> All this seems to demonstrate the relatively light security at CFBes. You'd expct a multigate system with the ability to stop cars (caltrops or spikes) or some type of deployable barrier that needs to be opened, but then again why pay if you have nothing there that one car could damage other than the gate.. but what if it was loaded with explosives, or a chemical weapon?  I geuss Canadian military bases are only medium security by the sounds of this - although CFB northbay appears as light security -although this could just be an obvious misconception.
> 
> Although I'm geussing calling ahead and notifing the bases of class trips etc.. lets the security there know who to expect to enter the base - a little different than people just showing up.
> 
> ...



WTF ???


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## Ex-Dragoon (14 Aug 2008)

> Unfortunate that someone died, and the person crashed into the ocean - although if the guy was killed and the car dumped in the ocean as a cover up.. I geuss only a few people would ever know. It'd be nice to know why it happened, and who the person was. Like why crash into a military base - unless it is to demonstrate that it can be done.



Ummmm how did this get from a car accident to a possible homicide? Don't speculate unless you know the facts. This is not a conspiracy so stop looking for one.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Ex-Dragoon (14 Aug 2008)

> It is freaky being on a base though after you pass the warning sign - it is like at any time you can now be stripped searched for ammusment.



: do you think thats why we have security measures in force? So we can strip search for our amusement?? Its for the protection of personnel and property.Please give your head a shake.


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## Sub_Guy (14 Aug 2008)

Bob Terwilliger said:
			
		

> Naden Street is not anywhere near the water..........



Naden Way leads right to the water.   Although I did think there was a cement barrier placed there, it is a good drop down and the water isn't deep there, its all rock.



> All this seems to demonstrate the relatively light security at CFBes. You'd expct a multigate system with the ability to stop cars (caltrops or spikes) or some type of deployable barrier that needs to be opened



Esquimalt Dockyard has a similar system in place.


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## armyca08 (14 Aug 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> : do you think thats why we have security measures in force? So we can strip search for our amusement?? Its for the protection of personnel and property.Please give your head a shake.



True, I don't know why i see it that way, it isn't worry about people trained to use lethal force and national security and martial law and stuff for reasons of protection of the property there - but oddly it is fear of being stripped searched at random that pops into my head - I've only been on two bases before one during peacetime and one during wartime - oddly during peacetime there was a posting, duringwartime it was walk up. Maybe it was just the type of base CFB Gagetown vs CFB Northbay - gagetown seemed much more active personnel oriented while Northbay seemed institutional - like residential and administrative. 

Right but you'd expect there to be more overt signs of perimiter defence. Like it is something that seriously is lacking, and gate entry I would say is perhaps an ongoing issue for sensitive national security establishments in Canada - although I do doubt for a certain extent that covert systems do not exist - as with my experience at iverhuron - although I'm not going to go into details - I tend to see Canadian bases as relatively laid back in the current age - although I visted gage at the end of the cold war in the late 80's. Once again though who knows. 


---

As for the homicide - the idea is left at crazy, but you gotta wonder, plus if the CF ain't against shooting at cars at checkpoints in A'stan then what would be any different at home --- hell CF has killed kids and women people riding bikes and point runners - if it is was stan and just some guy it'd be understood as necisary response. Is the protocol different in Canada - let the people break into the secure area and do whatever they'd like using their vehicle-- call the MP and wait for them to set up road blocks on the base and create a controled safe crash environment?

Or did the guy break onto the base then decide to go swimming cause he was bored with the parade grounds? 

It will likely be left at crazy due to national security war measures. but likely a crazy right - but behind a crazy there could be a story - one that isn't so crazy. 

Likely a crazy though.


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## Snafu-Bar (14 Aug 2008)

Perhaps it's a medical thing like a heart attack or stroke causing the accident to happen.

 I fail to see why speculating anything in this is worthy considering the outcome of the accident.

 Let the investigators do thier jobs before calling in Moulder and Scully.

 :


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## Ex-Dragoon (14 Aug 2008)

You really right out in left field aren't you? I will put this in the gentlest terms possible so you don't feel MiBs are after you in black helicopters. Stop while your ahead before you say something truly stupid.


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## armyca08 (14 Aug 2008)

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Perhaps it's a medical thing like a heart attack or stroke causing the accident to happen.
> 
> I fail to see why speculating anything in this is worthy considering the outcome of the accident.
> 
> ...



Yah it could be - let's wait and find out after the coroners report is released. I have the feeling suddent impact due to a motor vehicle crash at high speed may be the cause of death.. I can only geuss bullet holes arn't there  and paint of other vehicles on the side of the thing would be clear sign of ramming - unless it was only bumper contact or a non painted vehicle 


PS the blachelicopters fleets were proven to exist and were part of a variety of US training missions potentially tied in with COOG operations.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Aug 2008)

armyca08 said:
			
		

> Yah it could be - let's wait and find out after the coroners report is released. I have the feeling suddent impact due to a motor vehicle crash at high speed may be the cause of death.. I can only geuss bullet holes arn't there  and paint of other vehicles on the side of the thing would be clear sign of ramming - unless it was only bumper contact or a non painted vehicle



Holy smokes.  Please...stop.  Just stop.

If you are bored, take a piece of paper.  On both sides, write "how do you keep someone busy?  flip over for the answer".

Enjoy.


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## medicineman (14 Aug 2008)

I was there today - looks like they drove through the concrete barrier along the water front at the cross of the T-Junction.  They needed to get a crane in - the wrecker there couldn't get it out, so it must have gone a fair ways out and down.  It weren't in good shape from what I saw as it was driven away - go figure.

MM


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## gwp (14 Aug 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Esquimalt Dockyard has a similar system in place.


The security posture between the Naden side of CFB Esquimalt and HMC Dockyard is quite different.  DY has an armed guard at the gate and there is an electrically operated steel barrier that will stop a very large truck.  There an armed Port Security Section on the waterside around the clock.
There is much to much uninformed speculation in the chat surrounding this event.  Watch and wait.


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## yak (14 Aug 2008)

Hang onto your tin foil hats.

http://www.cfax1070.com/newsstory.php?newsId=6052

Should be interesting to see what comes of it in the next couple days.

Also, I believe the practice of placing the armed Port Security personnel at the gates has ceased - don't know when that happened.  When I got back from my last trip they weren't there anymore.


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## Sub_Guy (14 Aug 2008)

yak said:
			
		

> Also, I believe the practice of placing the armed Port Security personnel at the gates has ceased - don't know when that happened.  When I got back from my last trip they weren't there anymore.



I just left Esquimalt a week ago and I am pretty sure they still had the Port Security Personnel at the Dockyard gate.


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## yak (14 Aug 2008)

Well, I've been wrong before (once ), but I haven't seen them when I've gone through the DY gate in the past 3-4 months, or at the Canteen Rd gate as recently as yesterday.  I will allow that I've not been in that area much in the past while but I will be watching when I head back to work in a couple weeks.

Maybe they're just in the booth and I missed them, but usually they're standing near the Commissionaire.


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## gwp (14 Aug 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I just left Esquimalt a week ago and I am pretty sure they still had the Port Security Personnel at the Dockyard gate.


Yes the DY gate activity has been modified.

Regarding the MVA. 
One female occupant was pronounced dead at the scene.  The male casualty is in hospital.  There is no military or DND connection with either.  The security measures have been re-evaluated and they are considered appropriate and that the incident will not cause a change in the defence posture.  The CFNIS and Vic PD continue their investigation.  No identities have been released.


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## Sub_Guy (15 Aug 2008)

Perhaps they were a little eager to start the recruiting process!  (a much better theory than the homicide, no need to call in Columbo)


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## danchapps (15 Aug 2008)

armyca08 said:
			
		

> Maybe it was just the type of base CFB Gagetown vs CFB Northbay - gagetown seemed much more active personnel oriented while Northbay seemed institutional - like residential and administrative.



North Bay seemed institutional? Of course it did, it is, very much so. Yes, there is a huge difference between Gagetown and North Bay. Gagetown is more of a training/operational type base, more first line shall I say. North Bay USED to be a big base, until the decade of darkness hit. During the Cold War there were fighter squadrons based there, they even had a nuke base. Hell, I used to live beside the old site! (It's apparently renovated for storage now in case anyone cares.) During that time, yeah, have fun getting on the base if you weren't supposed to. Since the downsizing of the base started in the early 90's there has been less need for security (certain areas exempt, *cough* NORAD *cough*). The airfield itself is no longer DND, and the hangars are leased out to private firms (Bombardier assembles(d?) the CL-415 water bomber there). When the hole was in operation it would have been impossible for anyone to get in. That's how it was designed. Now with th above ground, I don't know, haven't been there since it went up. 

As for Gagetown, I can't explain it as I haven't been there. As for the open/closed policy for bases, that is up to the individual base commander if I'm not mistaken. Borden went closed gate this month (I believe, was supposed to be right after I left) as they were tired of the Honda employees using the base as a short cut. Plus other security reasons I'm sure. 

I can't however get over how paranoid you seem with your posts in this thread. I mean really? It was a traffic accident and you are making it out to be an attack or something. Before we jump to anything, wait for the facts to come out. Easy on the tinfoil hats, seriously.


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## Colin Parkinson (15 Aug 2008)

If the water is more than 20' deep the car will generally land on it's roof, lights, wipers and door lock will keep functioning often for quite some time, there was extensive testing of car watercrashes back in the 90's.


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## Disenchantedsailor (15 Aug 2008)

The big difference between North Bay and Gagetown is ones primary function is to train the other is to control Aircraft across North America, every try to get into an airport control tower, well its kinda likt that with PMS to get into the NORAD centre in NB, Gagetown although they house 2 RCR (/and shorty the 2 RCR composite battlegroup) the main occupants are all of the schools in CTC. The threat in Oromocto is negligable to non-existant at best so there is no need for WWII Draconian style security, in places like Esquimalt where the dockyard houses all of our ships which are most vulnerable alongside the requirement for Armed sentries and not so routine patrols is much higher.  But this accident doesn't seem like an attack or probe of any type, either that or it was a piss poor one


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## kratz (15 Aug 2008)

Shared IAW fair dealings from the Globeandmail.com



> CFB ESQUIMALT
> 
> Military touts safety after crash turns fatal near base
> Motorist sped past lone security guard
> ...


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 Aug 2008)

Nope...no murder nor a conspiracy imagine that.....just a regular tragic fatal car accident.


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## Haggis (15 Aug 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Nope...no murder nor a conspiracy imagine that.....just a regular tragic fatal car accident.



Mulder and Scully say different.  Clearly, you're not in the loop.


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 Aug 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Mulder and Scully say different.  Clearly, you're not in the loop.



Guess not...I must have missed the memo again...


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## danchapps (15 Aug 2008)

Shhhhh, we can let anyone know they are in the province shooting more X-Files re-runs. (I know it doesn't make sense, but neither does the conspiracy theory)

How's the tin hat doing?


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## Haggis (15 Aug 2008)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> How's the tin hat doing?



It's Friday night.  I fashioned mine into an ale-horn.

Back on topic.  People outside the security profession have to realize that doing physical security right is expensive in terms of personnel, infrastructure and technology.  Those who advocate that we (the CF) should protect everything as tightly as possible are not the ones who have to pay for it, or go in/out through it to do our jobs.


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## medicineman (15 Aug 2008)

Haggis said:
			
		

> It's Friday night.  I fashioned mine into an ale-horn.
> 
> Back on topic.  People outside the security profession have to realize that doing physical security right is expensive in terms of personnel, infrastructure and technology.  Those who advocate that we (the CF) should protect everything as tightly as possible are not the ones who have to pay for it, or go in/out through it to do our jobs.



Not quite - they do pay for it as tax payers.  However, they get irate when they find out how much is required, yell for and then pay for, a Royal Commission to find out why, which then in turn reccommends that further money be spent - building a totally new facility that can be easily secured by unarmed Commissionaires...etc ad nauseum.

MM


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## AFriend (18 Aug 2008)

To clear some things up, 
Her name was Steff Hendel and she was my best friend. Nobody killed her and dumped her body. She was out driving with a friend. She was not a terrorist, had no intent to prove she could breach security, and all the other nonsense. She was simply a 22 year old girl who had way too much fun. 
Yes, there is a concrete wall as somebody mentioned.. and her car plowed through it.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Aug 2008)

Thanks, AFriend.
Stay strong.

Milnet.ca


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