# What is happening in Moose Jaw / OJT Backlog



## brian_k (11 Jan 2010)

Does anyone out there know what is happening with NFTC . I was originally schedule to go in March 2010, then it was June 2010, and now Nov 2010. This latest news just came in and is due to courses 1002 and 1003 being zero loaded and other courses dropping from a full loading of 16 down to 9 and in one instance 4 people. Why is MJ so backlogged? I hear romours that it is a lack of instructors or lack of aircraft, but no one seems to know. From the Pilot Timeline post this was mentioned:



> There are changes coming to the pilot training, check this article:
> 
> http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2008/06/13/air-force-short-250-pilots-but-getting-a-handle-on-retention.aspx
> 
> You can also check the Fall issue of Air Force CrewBrief for additional info on the various initiatives that are being taken. How this will translate into timeline changes for training? I guess only time will tell.



Another question I have is in regards to the pilot shortage. I could be wrong but we seem to be recruiting significantly more pilots each year than the training system can actually handle. Is this because it looks good on paper to recruit x number of pilots to meet attrition rates? This appears to be making the OJT wait even longer since it just creates more backlog without actually increasing the production of the much needed trained pilots. 

Any changes in the system to help pilot training wait times will happen to late to have an affect on my wait time but I hope something is being done. Not only will a lack of trained pilots hinder our flying ops but feeling essentially useless and stuck in limbo for a year and a half isn't great for morale. I know someone is going to say this is a good time to get other courses out of the way, which I am, but I would rather be flying.

Thanks


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## aesop081 (11 Jan 2010)

brian_k said:
			
		

> Why is MJ so backlogged?



Issues with the Harvard aircraft as i was told by MJ instructors last november.


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## brian_k (11 Jan 2010)

I know there is probably not a simple answer but does anyone know if buying more Harvards has been looked at? Yes it would be expensive but can we meet the current training goals with the number of aircraft we have? If there are more urgent problems that need funding, which there probably are, then should realistic goal not be set for recruiting and training? 

P.S. Sorry if I sound frustrated but I am. I am pretty far removed from the offices in Winnipeg or Ottawa that make these decisions so all I see is a date on a spread sheet that keeps move farther away from me.


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## dapaterson (11 Jan 2010)

The CF doesn't own the aircraft.  Bombardier, as the prime contractor, provides the aircraft.


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## aesop081 (11 Jan 2010)

brian_k said:
			
		

> I know there is probably not a simple answer but does anyone know if buying more Harvards has been looked at?



The way it was explained to me....more harvards would only have resulted in more harvards with the same issue.



> all I see is a date on a spread sheet that keeps move farther away from me.



There are almost always issues going on that are well above one's level. Yes it is frustrating but you are getting yourself wound up based on a very small piece of the puzzle. Relax, you are still going to get paid.


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## brian_k (11 Jan 2010)

> The CF doesn't own the aircraft.  Bombardier, as the prime contractor, provides the aircraft.



I had known this and actually heard (it's probably just a rumor) that it is cheaper for Bombardier to pay the penalties for not training the amount of students that their contracts says then it is for them to invest more money into aircraft. The point I was trying to make was that I don't know what is actually in the contract or whether or not there are possibilities for the CF to lease more aircraft but that the amount of people recruited, the amount of trained pilots they want, and the amount that actually can be trained each year just don't match.



> The way it was explained to me....more harvards would only have resulted in more harvards with the same issue.


This makes sense when the entire fleet has to be grounded but when they are flying, do you know whether or not there are enough aircraft to go around for all the instructors to fly regularly. If its anything like portage, they didn't have enough planes between PFT and PFT Extended for all the instructors to fly with students regulary, and even if they did have a bunch of extra aircraft then there wouldn't have been enough instructors to handle all the students. I guess its kind of a catch 22, if we got more planes then we would need more instructors but we aren't producing enough pilots to replace the ones we have.



> Yes it is frustrating but you are getting yourself wound up based on a very small piece of the puzzle. Relax, you are still going to get paid.



Probably good advice.


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## Arctic007 (14 Jan 2010)

This whole issue *was inevitable * going from 100+ Tutors to a score of Harvard IIs.......that and the military use to maintain it's training fleet....my 2 cents.....


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## Zoomie (16 Jan 2010)

Nothing new here.  Training backlogs and extended OJTs has been the way of life for baby-CF Pilots for over a decade now.  It takes considerable time and resources to train a Military aviator - would you rather we pushed you out the door on LWOP and asked you to come back when your course was ready?  I spent an entire tour length (4 years) training to be a pilot, this is your legacy - enjoy it.


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## brian_k (21 Jan 2010)

> would you rather we pushed you out the door on LWOP and asked you to come back when your course was ready?



I don't think anyone would want to be pushed out on LWOP but having that as an option might not be a bad idea. It would save the military some money and a year long working vacation in Australia would be interesting.


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## Zoomie (21 Jan 2010)

Staff a memo to AFTrng requesting LWOP for one year.  You might just get it approved sooner than you thought possible.


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## SupersonicMax (21 Jan 2010)

brian_k, here's my advice to you.

Stop worrying about factors that you cannot control and use the time you have now in a way that will help you in your flight training.  If you are at a flying unit, hang out with the pilots, hit the books, read about IFR, ask questions.  Try to do some self study on that.  It will help you in Moose Jaw as you will have an idea of what IFR involves.  If you are not in a flying unit, I suggest you try to go to one for a short period of time at least so you can have some exposure.

Take time to relax.  Don't stretch the days at work if you don't have to.  Spend time with your significant other if you have one and take time to take care of yourself.  You may not have time during course.  Do things you enjoy.

As it has been said here already, waiting at your OJT unit is way better than sitting on your thumbs in Moose Jaw.

Don't forget, in the end, it's all about attitude.  Force yourself to see the positive side of your current experience and try to influence factors that you can influence.


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## hauger (22 Jan 2010)

I feel your pain Brian.  It's frustrating feeling life slide by waiting on a course in MJ.  The frustrations continue after MJ too when you have to wait on a course in Portage and again for your OTU.

Adding more Harvard's is tricky though, mainly because it's a contract issue.  I don't know if the existing contract has any room to add additional capacity or not, but I can't imagine adding capacity (aka: more Harvard's) would be as easy as just buying/leasing a bunch. 

It's funny though, according to the CM, the current capacity to turn out new winged pilots falls short of predicted attrition rates.  I'm sure this is why PFT-E was started, it was probably easier to write up a new contract for new capacity than it was to crack open the existing one. 

Brian's got a point though that has another side to it than his (the 2Lt on OJT).  The CF is spending big cash on salaries of guys to sit around while the trade is in big need of trained and operational pilots.

Me, I'm not convinced contacting out pilot training aka: Moose Jaw (Bombardier) and Portage (Allied Wings) was the best way  go.  Sure, there's great savings and red tape avoidance, but the restrictions on how to do business is limiting.


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## aesop081 (23 Jan 2010)

hauger said:
			
		

> Brian's got a point though that has another side to it than his (the 2Lt on OJT).  The CF is spending big cash on salaries of guys to sit around while the trade is in big need of trained and operational pilots.



They end up sitting around regardless. Speed up the training up to wings as much as you like, the OTU bottleneck is still there and will be so for the foreseable future.


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## Good2Golf (23 Jan 2010)

The problem as a number of folks have stated is not a simple one.  It is not only at Moose Jaw that back log exists.  The operational training units are also experiencing backlogs converting new-wings-grads onto their respective operational aircraft.  Expect this to remain a problem for some time in the future, in particular as a number of new aircraft types are brought on-line and the existing operators are converted as well (C-17, C130J, CH148 Cyclone, CH147 Chinook, etc...)

Max is right about trying to 'arm' yourself with experience from pilots at operational units, if you can swing a visit or two to such units if you're not doing OJT at one at the moment.  In addition to the B-GA-100 - CF Flight Rules, a good reference to read through is the GPH-204 (mil/DWAN link here) which includes many of the specifics of operating CF aircraft throughout Canadian airspace.  Good to have in the back of your mind to make dealing with them during actual training a bit more bearable.

Regards
G2G


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## Zoomie (24 Jan 2010)

While some communities have been having difficulties absorbing NWG (new winged grads) - the OTU's for C-17 and J Hercs has been next to zero wait time once graduated.  We just had to graduate one of our students a week early (he was done, just his grad date is next friday) - his J Herc conversion training starts this wednesday.  He has been given four days to get his stuff together back in MJ and then off to Arkansas.

There will always be a backlog for E/H Hercs and CP-140's due to the way we train our guys and how often we run the respective courses.  

I have seen guys come through the school here at Portage appear on the nightly news down flying in Haiti - they graduated less than a year ago.  This Lt that just got his wings could be flying the J Herc in Afghanistan this summer.

If you want to have uninterrupted flight training and get through the system rather fast - elect for the Phase 2 Grob course - there is hardly any wait between Phase 2 and 3.  The caveat being that you are taking the option of flying fast jets out of the running - forever.


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## Good2Golf (24 Jan 2010)

Zoomie, have you heard of guys going for the 130J conversion yet? (aside from Exchange O's)


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## brian_k (24 Jan 2010)

Thanks for all the great replies. I started this thread the same day that I saw my moose jaw date change from March to November but since then my frustration has mellowed out a little. I guess there really is no simple answer on how to fix the backlog. There was some good suggestions on what to do in the mean time but I currently have a useful/interesting job and am keeping fairly busy.



> If you want to have uninterrupted flight training and get through the system rather fast - elect for the Phase 2 Grob course


Unfortunately this isn't an option for a lot of people. You need to have completed PFT within the last 6 months to be eligible and since I did PFT in 2008 I am a bit over that mark.


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## Zoomie (24 Jan 2010)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Zoomie, have you heard of guys going for the 130J conversion yet? (aside from Exchange O's)



Almost half of 436 Sqn has gone through Arkansas for conversion training.  Soon there won't be any E/H model qualified TAL drivers.  Like I mentioned in my previous post - we are graduating NWGs straight to the J model - with little or no wait for training.


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## hauger (24 Jan 2010)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Almost half of 436 Sqn has gone through Arkansas for conversion training.  Soon there won't be any E/H model qualified TAL drivers.  Like I mentioned in my previous post - we are graduating NWGs straight to the J model - with little or no wait for training.



I'd say it's a big stretch to say half of 436 Sqn has converted through the J.  There is some converted aircrew from 436 and from 426, but far from half.  I would expect to see 436 manned TAL E/H's in the desert until 2011.  

Some NWG trained now on the J, but I'd say wait times are still an issue as Little Rock is currently max saturated and unable to train as many guys as we want to the levels we need.  Further, the training/conversion slots are already called for over the next year (notwithstanding pop-up opportunities), so it's not like Arkansas is a fat pipe that guys can just push through.


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