# Collège Militaire Royal de Saint-Jean (CMR)



## Fiji_Boy_ (24 May 2016)

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/montreal/college-militaire-saint-jean-resumes-university-status-1.3586662

Thanks to my friend Roborob, I came across to this surprising news that RMC Saint-Jean will be a bachelor granting university again.

Coming this from Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan  himself, I am sure this is a solid piece of announcement. 

My official letter says, 'you will receive subsidy of education towards a Bachelor of Science from RMC Saint-Jean for 4 years.' So does this mean the government had in mind that we who are sent there for our first year will eventually graduate in RMC Saint-Jean?

P.S. I am actually excited for the new change and I will learn French better!


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## PuckChaser (24 May 2016)

Seems like a great use of limited DND funds. : facepalm:


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## MSmith (24 May 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Seems like a great use of limited DND funds. : facepalm:



  Well, maybe not as bad as you might think? While there is still a debate as to the value of the military colleges, in light of the current recruitment crisis I think that it's fair to say that the main benefit they provide to the forces is a guaranteed quota of new officers, with a strong recruiting incentive. That being said, a professor at CMR explained to me why CMR is actually valuable, because I was skeptical of why we needed two universities let alone one:

  The gist of his explanation is that Francophone recruits would not want to travel to Kingston to complete their CEGEP year, as some speak very little English. Thus, CMR provided a school in a very Francophone part of Quebec to allow them to assimilate more gradually and comfortably, while learning English at the same time. Enough anglophones complain about being posted to CMR for one year because of the lack of English speakers around, is it so hard to understand the other way around? Thus, it acts as a recruiting incentive for Francophone officer cadets.

 So while a second military college may not be as useful as new IFV's, trucks or bullets, if National Defense decides that the Military College program is worthwhile then this is not too far from the same vein of thinking.


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## MSmith (24 May 2016)

Fiji_Boy_ said:
			
		

> My official letter says, 'you will receive subsidy of education towards a Bachelor of Science from RMC Saint-Jean for 4 years.' So does this mean the government had in mind that we who are sent there for our first year will eventually graduate in RMC Saint-Jean?



As far as I understand, the current plan is for RMCSJ to only offer social science programs; you will likely continue to Kingston. That could have changed.


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## PuckChaser (24 May 2016)

We have 0 need for 2 degree granting institutions, we closed Royal Roads for a reason. Kingston is basically western Quebec, there are tons of francophones there and a large university populace used to working with students of many cultures.


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## MSmith (24 May 2016)

Calling Kingston western Quebec is a pretty far stretch.

I agree with you that there isn't a need for two degree granting institutions, but there is a real need to have CMR exist and the amount of money needed to upgrade it to a full degree granting university is likely little in the grand scheme of things. All the facilities already exist, and CMR already employs many university professors. CBC stated that the cost for running CMR as a full university was approximately $4 million more.
Either way it's all semantics, the university will be opened no matter what you or I think of it. When it comes down to it though, I'm certain there are far worse things that we could spend the money on. 

Edited: The cost is $4 million more, not $4 million total.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-harper-quebec-military-college-1.3240015


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## PuckChaser (24 May 2016)

$4 more million, for what benefit? So some kids from Quebec can stay in Quebec? Why isn't there RMC Edmonton then? The only reason CMR St. Jean existed was to give Quebec applicants the year of school their province decided they didn't need. If we had an issue with Quebec students assimilating into the CAF culture, then they should go to a civilian university and do their military training in the summers. RMC cleared a bunch of space by encouraging UTPNCM candidates attend a university in their current location instead of posting them all to Kingston, to save money. Now we've pissed that money away so we can teach social sciences? Why can't civilian universities do that?


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## Loachman (24 May 2016)

We spend too much money on RMC as it is. It should be reduced in scope, not bloated further.

And there was no shortage of applicants when OCTP (Officer Candidate Training Plan) existed. That brought people in directly and sent them straight to CF Officer Candidate School. Just as there was no need to provide every single Officer with a degree then, there is no need now.

There is always something worse on which to spend money. There are also far, far better things on which to spend money.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.


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## Journeyman (25 May 2016)

MSmith said:
			
		

> .... there is a real need to have CMR exist


Could you explain why?



> All the facilities already exist, and CMR already employs many university professors.


 Again, why is that so if it isn't a degree-granting institution?


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## dapaterson (25 May 2016)

Interesting that Royal Roads managed to become a significant educational institution after the milcol there was closed, while CMR failed to do the same.


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## MSmith (25 May 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> RMC cleared a bunch of space by encouraging UTPNCM candidates attend a university in their current location instead of posting them all to Kingston, to save money. Now we've pissed that money away so we can teach social sciences? Why can't civilian universities do that?



I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. I agree that RMC does not necessarily produce officers that are a significant cut above their civvie-U counterparts, but they are a recruitment tool. Like I said earlier, the forces are lacking in recruitment recently, and the colleges are one way to give an incentive to sign up. I don't think that having a Quebec counterpart is that unrealistic, seeing as just over 20 years ago half of Quebec was ready to split from Canada.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Interesting that Royal Roads managed to become a significant educational institution after the milcol there was closed, while CMR failed to do the same.


That was a decision by the BC provincial government, i'm not sure what you are getting at here? I would assume that the Quebec government did not see the need for it, when CEGEP St-Jean is a few blocks away.



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Could you explain why?
> Again, why is that so if it isn't a degree-granting institution?



Like I said above, it's a recruitment tool for francophone officer cadets. The college maintains university professors becuase approximately 60% of the school are anglophone officer cadets who are there doing their 1st year of university studies. The college is far too large to only house the limited number of Francophones who need to complete their CEGEP program, so some of the remaining space is used for Anglophones.




			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> We spend too much money on RMC as it is. It should be reduced in scope, not bloated further.
> 
> And there was no shortage of applicants when OCTP (Officer Candidate Training Plan) existed. That brought people in directly and sent them straight to CF Officer Candidate School. Just as there was no need to provide every single Officer with a degree then, there is no need now.



Honestly guys I agree with you completely, for what it does RMC is not nearly worth the taxpayer cost. Do officers really need non-technical degrees? Probably not, the UK gets on just fine without them. However, there IS a shortage of officers joining now.


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## dapaterson (25 May 2016)

What are you basing the statement "There's a shortage of officers" on?  When I look in HRMS, I see just under 23% of all officers identified as Francophone; higher than the proportion of Francophones in Canada.  When do a further look at numbers, I see a CAF with nearly 25% of its personnel as officer cadets and commissioned officers; that seems high, not low.

Again, I don't see the problem to which this is supposed to be the solution.


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## Lumber (25 May 2016)

Loachman said:
			
		

> We spend too much money on RMC as it is. It should be reduced in scope, not bloated further.
> 
> And there was no shortage of applicants when OCTP (Officer Candidate Training Plan) existed. That brought people in directly and sent them straight to CF Officer Candidate School. Just as there was no need to provide every single Officer with a degree then, there is no need now.
> 
> ...



To quote someone wise than I, "If I’m going to command at a certain level, on behalf of a lawfully elected government in another place in the world, it is not unreasonable to expect that I can elevate my intellectual game?”

Your mileage may vary, but I have personally seen and continue to see tangible benefits from my university experience. My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer. Could I have gotten to this point through experience alone? Perhaps, with time. 

As for spending money on RMC/CMR vs. simply sending people to civilian University? I'll echo what's already been said. They act as recruiting tools to attract the nation's best who see them as an elite institutions, and they are symbols of national pride, like West Point and Sandhurst. 

Also, even though it only educates Officer Cadets, it is still a federal research institution which produces a large amount of worthwhile material for academia.


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## Journeyman (25 May 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer.


Hence the haiku posts.  >


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## dapaterson (25 May 2016)

Start again College
Regardless of any need
More votes in Quebec


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## Journeyman (25 May 2016)

:facepalm:
I feel like I'm watching Andre the Giant is doing his rhyming thing in The Princess Bride.


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## The Bread Guy (25 May 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hence the haiku posts.  >


Judge ye not anyone by his metre alone ...  ;D

_Not_ picking on you personally, Lumber, but you're not the first to bring up these arguments, so this is as much for others with the same points, too.



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> To quote someone wise than I, "If I’m going to command at a certain level, on behalf of a lawfully elected government in another place in the world, it is not unreasonable to expect that I can elevate my intellectual game?”


Not unreasonable at all, but this leads to a couple of questions:
1)  Is a _military-run_ university the only/best/most efficient place to "elevate one's intellectual game"?
2)  Is a _university_ the only/best/most efficient place to "elevate one's intellectual game"?  (And I ask that as someone who's got both a university degree and a college diploma.)
Anecdotally speaking, from my experience (admittedly 20+ years ago), I've worked with good officers who came through military colleges, good officers who came through regular universities and good officers who didn't have degrees when I worked with them, hence my questions.



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Your mileage may vary, but I have personally seen and continue to see tangible benefits from my university experience. My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer. Could I have gotten to this point through experience alone? Perhaps, with time.


See Q1 above.



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> As for spending money on RMC/CMR vs. simply sending people to civilian University? I'll echo what's already been said. They act as recruiting tools to attract the nation's best who see them as an elite institutions, and they are symbols of national pride, like West Point and Sandhurst.


Fair enough, but how is being a "symbol of national pride" a valid/useful measure of how good a job of elevating the collective intellectual game of officers in the CF?  How much are we willing to pay for national pride if this isn't the best way to spend money to reach the aim?



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Also, even though it only educates Officer Cadets, it is still a federal research institution which produces a large amount of worthwhile material for academia.


I'd love to hear from others who know the academic community better than I do (translation:  almost anyone) about how large, worthwhile and unique the research being done @ the MilColls is compared to other research U's.


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## dapaterson (25 May 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> I feel like I'm watching Andre the Giant is doing his rhyming thing in The Princess Bride.



Is that why you make comments which are often snide?


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## The Bread Guy (25 May 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Is that why you make comments which are often snide?


Thrown in, no doubt, as a rhyming aside?


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## dapaterson (25 May 2016)

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.


And note that ROUSes are running amok in Toronto right now...


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## Brasidas (25 May 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> To quote someone wise than I, "If I’m going to command at a certain level, on behalf of a lawfully elected government in another place in the world, it is not unreasonable to expect that I can elevate my intellectual game?”
> 
> Your mileage may vary, but I have personally seen and continue to see tangible benefits from my university experience. My experience and my education has made me a better person, a better adult, and as a result a better Officer. Could I have gotten to this point through experience alone? Perhaps, with time.
> 
> ...



Sandhurst only trains officers to be officers; its not a university.

Why couldn't we similarly teach officers to be officers, rather than be in the game of running a university?

If you want a great officer training centre, do that.


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## Loachman (25 May 2016)

MSmith said:
			
		

> However, there IS a shortage of officers joining now.



Then offer Officer applicants a $5000.00 bonus contingent upon passing their occupation qualification courses and skip the whole degree thing for those who will not be engineers, doctors, dentists, lawyers, etcetera.

That would save a ton of money, make people useful three or four years earlier, and result in Officers of the same calibre.

The only downside is for those whose empires would contract.


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## Old Sweat (25 May 2016)

Back pre-unification when the army had two entry streams, one producing officers with degrees and one that did not, it grudgingly admitted that once officers reached the rank of captain, there was no difference in performance. Before that, the degree scheme ones had the edge in "intellectual pursuits" while the non-degreed ones were better at the "army stuff" in garrison and in the field.

Whether that is valid today is moot.


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## dapaterson (25 May 2016)

Indeed, the manpower study for officers done pre-unification saw two streams: Undegreed for a wide pool of junior officers, who would serve nine years then be given a gratuity; and degreed, who would not get the payout but would form the nucleus of a much smaller senior officer corps.

We now have an inflated corps of senior officers, without the requisite military command positions for them to gain experience.  We end up with either grossly abridged times in command, or pseudo-command positions (like the plethora of individuals who are designated as sorta-kinda-almost COs).  Neither serves the institution well in developing leadership.

There is an admirable ambition in the CAF to punch above weight; unfortunately, in a structure of 68K Regular Force, there are finite opportunities for leadership.  That drives limits to how many effective senior leaders can be produced and sustained.


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## Old Sweat (25 May 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Indeed, the manpower study for officers done pre-unification saw two streams: Undegreed for a wide pool of junior officers, who would serve nine years then be given a gratuity; and degreed, who would not get the payout but would form the nucleus of a much smaller senior officer corps.



The study fell victim to unification. However it was considered widely unattainable as too many ROTP graduates served only their compulsory three years of commissioned service before returning to civilian life. I was a member of the great unwashed, having received a short service commission in 1961 after having served as a NCM. I applied for and was granted a permanent commission after passing my promotion exams in 1964 and went to staff college in 1970 at the age of 30.

For whatever it was worth, many commanding officers preferred undegreed junior officers as they had a better grounding in their duties and were well motivated towards a military career. Most sought and were granted permanent commissions which meant service to CRA, in those days: Captain and below 47; Major 49; Lieutenant Colonel 51; Colonel 53; and Brigadier and up 55.


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## Brasidas (25 May 2016)

MSmith said:
			
		

> I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way. I agree that RMC does not necessarily produce officers that are a significant cut above their civvie-U counterparts, but they are a recruitment tool. Like I said earlier, the forces are lacking in recruitment recently, and the colleges are one way to give an incentive to sign up. I don't think that having a Quebec counterpart is that unrealistic, seeing as just over 20 years ago half of Quebec was ready to split from Canada.



Then give them $5000 to enroll. To be fair, make it for all incoming officers, repayable if they fail to complete their program.

$4 million annually, divided by $5000, is 800 officers. Multiply that by 4 (every officer gets the bonus once, and generally gets a degree done in four years), and we have 3200 officers receiving a bonus for the increased cost of bring CMR St Jean up to the new level.

How much better do you think CMR is as a recruitment tool than those Quebecers being able to stay home at Laval or UQAM with $5000 in their pocket?


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## MSmith (25 May 2016)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> Then give them $5000 to enroll. To be fair, make it for all incoming officers, repayable if they fail to complete their program.
> 
> $4 million annually, divided by $5000, is 800 officers. Multiply that by 4 (every officer gets the bonus once, and generally gets a degree done in four years), and we have 3200 officers receiving a bonus for the increased cost of bring CMR St Jean up to the new level.
> 
> How much better do you think CMR is as a recruitment tool than those Quebecers being able to stay home at Laval or UQAM with $5000 in their pocket?



Well to be honest, I don't really know how much better it is. It very well could be the golden ticket, but the reality is that neither Military college will be closed in favor of that any time soon. Like I said earlier I'm not arguing for the RMC system, simply trying to share my understanding of why it exists/decision to reopen CMR as a university was made.


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## roborob (12 Jun 2016)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> Then give them $5000 to enroll. To be fair, make it for all incoming officers, repayable if they fail to complete their program.
> 
> $4 million annually, divided by $5000, is 800 officers. Multiply that by 4 (every officer gets the bonus once, and generally gets a degree done in four years), and we have 3200 officers receiving a bonus for the increased cost of bring CMR St Jean up to the new level.
> 
> How much better do you think CMR is as a recruitment tool than those Quebecers being able to stay home at Laval or UQAM with $5000 in their pocket?



$5000 dollars a year is about half of my tutition (Mech eng), and that's before rations and board. That's very little incentive for someone to stay around for 5 years minimum.


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## Brasidas (22 Jun 2016)

roborob said:
			
		

> $5000 dollars a year is about half of my tutition (Mech eng), and that's before rations and board. That's very little incentive for someone to stay around for 5 years minimum.



This is on top of ROTP that we're talking about. They're already getting subsidized education and an obligation to serve. This is $5000 on top of that and the ability to stay at home (eg. local university vs St Jean).


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## roborob (22 Jun 2016)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> This is on top of ROTP that we're talking about. They're already getting subsidized education and an obligation to serve. This is $5000 on top of that and the ability to stay at home (eg. local university vs St Jean).



So where does the ROTP money come from? there's currently only 50 spots for civi U ROTP.


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## Brasidas (22 Jun 2016)

roborob said:
			
		

> So where does the ROTP money come from? there's currently only 50 spots for civi U ROTP.



Where does it come from for St Jean?


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## roborob (22 Jun 2016)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> Where does it come from for St Jean?



From the $4 million, there isn't a degree issuing university there right now. That's what the money is for, to run a new university.


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## SupersonicMax (22 Jun 2016)

$4M a year is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  Each F-18 pilot spends on average more than twice that in flight hours, each year!  I say let them have the University.  RMC was gettin overcrowded when I left and coupd not accomodate any increase in students.


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## Loachman (29 Jun 2016)

Then reduce the number of students, and resurrect OCTP.


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## Journeyman (29 Jun 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> $4M a year is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  Each F-18 pilot spends on average more than twice that in flight hours, each year!  I say let them have the University.  RMC was gettin overcrowded when I left and coupd not accomodate any increase in students.


There has been all kinds of "residence" construction (apparently Cadets don't do "barracks").

Perhaps the other solution is to reduce "each F-18 pilots' flight hours".....


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## proudmama (17 Aug 2016)

CMR St Jean has apparently decided to take a new approach to the indoctrination of officer cadets. They are running the obstacle course on Friday, Sept 2nd but the badging and parade ceremony will only be on Saturday the 10th. 

I know a lot of families would love to be there for either event but just can’t due to circumstances. My family is fortunate enough to be close enough to go down for one of the weekends but with a seven hour drive and limited vacation time available (needed to get there in time), going two weekends in a row will likely be too much. My preference is the obstacle course but my husband (having spent years in cadets) prefers the idea of attending the ceremony to see the drill and parade. I am open to any input someone who has been there has to offer! 
It’s a disappointment because we had been expecting both events to be on the reunion weekend as the Commander’s letter in June to all the students, and all the ROTP programs descriptives, stated. I only caught the date change by happening to go online to the official web page for the school and spotting it in a title splash. I get that badging needs to happen when the alumni are there. I also understand that with the officer cadets just having come out of seven weeks at CFLRS, three more weeks of being CB is enough as for as the cadets are concerned. BUT, isn’t it kind of like cancelling the football game from a traditional university homecoming weekend? It sucks for families, alumni and other guests and makes it less of an immediate celebration/payoff for the officer cadets.

I suspect they wouldn’t try this kind of “minor adjustment” at RMCC. There is also a lack of official entry event at CMRSJ compared the RMCC arch parade, with the cadets being shipped over at night in a bus direct from BMOQ. If the powers that be don’t want CMRSJ feeling like its second class for officer cadets getting offers for First Year university there, they really should give some kind of consideration to the types of traditions RMCC proudly touts.  

Now that I have vented (and perhaps given a heads-up to some other misinformed parents), I will suck it up and accept this is another lesson in “rolling with it” as part of a military family. The first was my cadet having to skip high school graduation as it was three days after BMOQ started, the day after exams finished (which couldn’t be delayed due to the early CMRSJ start date which apparently has resulted in the reason for the early obstacle course).  Blah! (and my officer cadet has already declared no regrets re picking ROTP over high school graduation  )


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## Allie8 (24 Aug 2016)

I also agree. We will be making the 8+ hour drive both weekends as we don't want to miss either event. Proud mama here too


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## Jay4th (24 Aug 2016)

Continuing the Orientation Program for an extra week would have been a "make work project".
Because the students receive 6 weeks of basic training before arriving at CMR or RMC, the Orientation program can be much shorter. All the basic training stuff used to be during Orientation (marching, polishing, rank structure) , now its done at recruit school before arriving at the College.

The Orientation only exists now as a team building exercise and to get students accustomed to the time management needed at the college.
The Obstacle Course signals the end of the Orientation Program.  They receive some privileges and reduced work hours/restrictions afterwards.

Students will then have a full Labour Day Long Weekend, the first weekend off since 01 July for many of them.
The Alumni did not want to have their Badging parade near the long weekend (cottages and such), thus they are on separate weekends.


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## MJP (24 Aug 2016)

Jay4th said:
			
		

> Continuing the Orientation Program for an extra week would have been a "make work project".
> Because the students receive 6 weeks of basic training before arriving at CMR or RMC, the Orientation program can be much shorter. All the basic training stuff used to be during Orientation (marching, polishing, rank structure) , now its done at recruit school before arriving at the College.
> 
> The Orientation only exists now as a team building exercise and to get students accustomed to the time management needed at the college.
> ...



It is almost like you work there and have an idea of why things happen the way they do.


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## Jay4th (24 Aug 2016)

I am slowly learning.


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