# Can you identify this for me?



## RyeGuy

I spotted this plane as I was arriving at our lake near Kenora Ontario on Wednesday at 2:30pm, it did at least 6 circles of the lake and flew very low.  Any idea what kind of aircraft this is and why it chose to fly circles around a sparsley populated lake in cottage country?....I anxiously await your replies...


thanks...


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## CADPAT SOLDIER

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like a C130 and perhaps it was doing search and rescue or training for search and rescue over lake of the woods.


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## 1feral1

Not a J version!

 ;D

Cheers,

Wes


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## 3rd Herd

Missing female hiker/jogger at Rainbow Falls Prov. Park ?


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## Strike

That Herc might have a prop, but that doesn't mean it belongs in the Rotorheads forum.  EWWWW!

Mods: Can we move this to the fixed-wing forum please?


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## Zoomie

CC-130 Hercules conducting SAR operations most likely...


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## IN HOC SIGNO

Definitely a Herc(ules) C130.


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## RyeGuy

Thanks for all the help everyone, much appreciated....I still can't figure out why that plane would be circling our lake 6 time though, its only a small lake in the middle of no where, about a mile long and half a mile wide......We never heard of anyone missing in this area.  Wouldnt the local authorities just send up a float plane to look if someone was missing....This plane couldn't have landed anywhere close to this area.  Where would be the closest base for one of these planes?.......


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## aesop081

RyeGuy said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the help everyone, much appreciated....I still can't figure out why that plane would be circling our lake 6 time though, its only a small lake in the middle of no where, about a mile long and half a mile wide......We never heard of anyone missing in this area.  Wouldnt the local authorities just send up a float plane to look if someone was missing....This plane couldn't have landed anywhere close to this area.  Where would be the closest base for one of these planes?.......



Trenton & Winnipeg


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## Inch

RyeGuy said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the help everyone, much appreciated....I still can't figure out why that plane would be circling our lake 6 time though, its only a small lake in the middle of no where, about a mile long and half a mile wide......We never heard of anyone missing in this area.  Wouldnt the local authorities just send up a float plane to look if someone was missing....This plane couldn't have landed anywhere close to this area.  Where would be the closest base for one of these planes?.......



They don't need to land to kick the SAR Techs out the back via parachute. Then the helo, or other means, comes to pick them up later.


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## Sf2

Perhaps it was conducting an exercise, or a real search.

If it bothered you that much, feel free to call either Trenton or Winnipeg Operations and they'll be happy to register your complaint.


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## Fishbone Jones

Checking out the action around the fall hunt camp....err, I mean 'Adventure Training'?? ;D


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## Ex-Dragoon

SF2 said:
			
		

> Perhaps it was conducting an exercise, or a real search.
> 
> If it bothered you that much, feel free to call either Trenton or Winnipeg Operations and they'll be happy to register your complaint.



SF2...where in his posts was he complaining...he was curious about an aircraft that was unfamiliar and doing unfamiliar activities in his neck of the woods. Watch yourself!

Milnet.ca Staff


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## beenthere

Definitely a C-130 Hercules. I used to fly on them. It's by no means unusual for the aircraft to be performing such a maneuver which was probably related to search and rescue (SAR) or training for SAR.
Crews often go out on training flights to hone their skills or to train new crewmembers on procedures used in air searches.
It's quite possible that during their training they just randomly picked your lake as a land mark to use for a maneuver. Usually such training goes unnoticed as most wilderness lakes don't have people around them.
I can't be certain that this was the case at your lake but it's the most likely reason for the sighting.


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## Sf2

I never said he was complaining.  I simply said that if he wanted to, he could submit a noise complaint to the appropriate organization.


> why it chose to fly circles around a sparsley populated lake in cottage country?....I anxiously await your replies...



Sounds to me like he's wanted to say something about it.........
And judging by his other posts, it would seem to indicate that he was more annoyed by the c130 than fascinated by it....


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## Roy Harding

SF2 said:
			
		

> I never said he was complaining.  I simply said that if he wanted to, he could submit a noise complaint to the appropriate organization.
> Sounds to me like he's wanted to say something about it.........
> And judging by his other posts, it would seem to indicate that he was more annoyed by the c130 than fascinated by it....
> 
> But I'm a pilot who hears of noise complaints all the time, so what would I know....



I don't get the same impression from his two posts, SF2.  He just struck me as genuinely curious.

Perhaps your experience of noise complaints lead you to be hyper-sensitive to the question?


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## mover1

the second photo looks like it has the Plexiglas's para doors on it,and the ramp is open, so its  a SAR  (Search and Rescue) aircraft.


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## Sf2

Not at all.  There is nothing wrong with noise complaints.  They are inherent with the nature of military flying - late at night and low altitudes.  I'm sure a few pilots take them personally, I don't.  The complaints get diseminated to the appropriate personnel and the proper steps are taken to mitigate the problem.  End of story.

If the original poster doesn't want aircraft flying over his house, he can call the operations center and register as a sensitive citizen, then he wouldn't have to worry anymore.  Not a big deal.


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## Roy Harding

SF2 said:
			
		

> Not at all.  There is nothing wrong with noise complaints.  They are inherent with the nature of military flying - late at night and low altitudes.  I'm sure a few pilots take them personally, I don't.  The complaints get diseminated to the appropriate personnel and the proper steps are taken to mitigate the problem.  End of story.
> 
> If the original poster doesn't want aircraft flying over his house, he can call the operations center and register as a sensitive citizen, then he wouldn't have to worry anymore.  Not a big deal.



Fair enough - I guess the word "complaint" is semantically loaded for me.

No harm, no foul.


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## Signalman150

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but, re: the noise complaints--

I still remember standing on my balcony in Yellowknife at mid-day watching a CF-18 take off from the airport (back about '88) and loving the show.  He tucked the gear up and made a tight port bank over the Range Lake South neighbourhood.  Absolutely wonderful!

A day or so later I was talking w/ the Public Affairs Offr at NorReg, and mentioned to him how much I appreciated the CF-18.  His reply astounded me. He said "well, you're one of the few.  Most of the people that phoned in wanted him hung, drawn, and quartered!"

Just goes to show; people don't appreciate a great moment when they see it. Of course, I'm the guy who--as a kid staying with friends in France--stayed up long after bedtime just watching the Canadian Starfighters take off for their patrols. Sigh.


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## aesop081

We had some old lady in a nearby town not too long ago

Usualy complaint......too low...too noisy....but that wasnt all of it.....

She interpreted the 4 lines of black smoke coming out of the 4 Allisons as "they are spraying my house"

Of course this was when the agent orange thing was on TV every night

 :


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## Bandit1

How could anyone complain about a Herc is beyond me...I snapped this photo of one while staying at a friends place near Trenton...no photoshopping or anything, but the pic really does look good if I do say so myself...   A couple of years back i was having a beer at the Ontario Place marina  on practice day for the CIAS when one of you guys came in low and just over the tree tops...was the best experience of my life, only wish I would have had my camera ready!

LONG LIVE PROPS!


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## PO2FinClk

I see only curiosity by this person with no inclination of any complaints in either of his 2 posts. Anyone not related to the military would be curious to see a CF aircraft circling their area.


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## Strike

On a related note, there were two Hornets (I think 2, never saw them but heard them) kicking around Kingston on Saturday about noon.  Any ideas?  They didn't stop for fuel.  I was going to stop by to see if it was anyone I knew.


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## Bandit1

Should have thought about OPSEC...d'oh!


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## geo

Bandit1 said:
			
		

> Probably providing air cover for the 3 amigos meeting.


or a "routine" training flight.. depending on who is asking ???


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## niner domestic

I'm with you Signalman, I'm loving being here in Trenton and having my own personal airshow everyday.  Between the C-117 coming in last week, the CF-18 flitting about on Sat and the show and tell of the US Globemaster last night, it's been awesome.  

I'm finding the trains to be much louder than the aircraft and they have a tendency to run at all hours of the night.  

To the OP, I can fully appreciate how seeing an aircraft that one does not normally see would have you questioning why it was there.  A few years ago up in the Yukon, we had a 747 land at the Whitehorse airport.  Half the territory turned out to see it as one had never been in the airport before  (we have an airshow mid Feb so we're used to seeing all sorts of aircraft - just not a 747).  The aircraft in question was a suspected hijacked plane from Korean Airlines on Sept 11th.  

http://www.community.gov.yk.ca/pdf/sept11.pdf

One thing to keep in mind, there is always a reason for an aircraft to be in that location at that time. Why it was there, might just surprise you.


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## aesop081

niner domestic said:
			
		

> One thing to keep in mind, there is always a reason for an aircraft to be in that location at that time. Why it was there, might just surprise you.



...and sometimes, we just plain go sightseeing. Maybe one of the crew owned property in the area and at the end of a training flight, just flew over to show the rest of the crew.  Could be just that simple.


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## Greymatters

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Maybe one of the crew owned property in the area and at the end of a training flight, just flew over to show the rest of the crew.  Could be just that simple.



Or possibly a new golf course in the area they wanted to check out?   ;D


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## Strike

I was really only wondering WHO they were (Should have been more specific.) so I could give them crap for not stopping in and saying hi.


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## aesop081

Strike said:
			
		

> I was really only wondering WHO they were (Should have been more specific.) so I could give them crap for not stopping in and saying hi.



i'm sure i can drop by if you realy want a fly-in visit


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## Rick Ruter

Strike said:
			
		

> On a related note, there were two Hornets (I think 2, never saw them but heard them) kicking around Kingston on Saturday about noon.  Any ideas?  They didn't stop for fuel.  I was going to stop by to see if it was anyone I knew.



Hornets patrol everywhere. They are NORAD assets and must cover our side of the border. 'Nuf said.


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## riggermade

I live in the flight path for landing in Pembroke and it doesn't bother me...the trains are more annoying...of course being an old Airborne soldier I still always have a look when I hear the Herc


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## Strike

Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> Hornets patrol everywhere. They are NORAD assets and must cover our side of the border. 'Nuf said.



Well duh!  13 yrs in and a pilot myself, I kinda figured that out.  Rick, I really didn't care what was flying but who.  Too many friends out there I don't see enough of.


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## geo

riggermade said:
			
		

> I live in the flight path for landing in Pembroke and it doesn't bother me...the trains are more annoying...of course being an old Airborne soldier I still always have a look when I hear the Herc



Heh.... you mean your hearing still works?

Have a friend of mine that is Pathfinder & longtime member of the Skyhawks para team.  If it wasn't for his hearing aids, he'd be as deaf as they come.  Talking to him now, he sorta remembers seeing all the AF types with their big earmuffs - but never thought more of it ... he tells me married life is great though, she never complains


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## Rick Ruter

Strike said:
			
		

> Well duh!  13 yrs in and a pilot myself, I kinda figured that out.  Rick, I really didn't care what was flying but who.  Too many friends out there I don't see enough of.


Strike, I thought you meant any idea what they were doing around Kingston. You'd be suprised how many CF pilotes outside the Fighter community don't know what we do for NORAD.

Did not mean to ruffle your feathers bud.

Ex Faucon???


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## aesop081

Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> You'd be suprised how many CF pilotes outside the Fighter community don't know what we do for NORAD.



And you would be surpised how many fighter pilots are shocked when you tell them theres more to the AF than fighters  ;D


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## Rick Ruter

Yea! And that too.


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## TCBF

Cottage Country, right? 

So, if it wasn't for one of the 'official' reasons above, somebody in the Herc was either shopping for a cottage or needed to recce the route to a party he'd been invited to.


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## aesop081

TCBF said:
			
		

> Cottage Country, right?
> 
> So, if it wasn't for one of the 'official' reasons above, somebody in the Herc was either shopping for a cottage or needed to recce the route to a party he'd been invited to.



Like i said earlier........





			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> ...and sometimes, we just plain go sightseeing. Maybe one of the crew owned property in the area and at the end of a training flight, just flew over to show the rest of the crew.  Could be just that simple.


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## Strike

> ...and sometimes, we just plain go sightseeing. Maybe one of the crew owned property in the area and at the end of a training flight, just flew over to show the rest of the crew.  Could be just that simple.



I've done that once or twice... ;D

Always stayong above the legal limit of course.


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## IN HOC SIGNO

Strike said:
			
		

> I've done that once or twice... ;D
> 
> Always stayong above the legal limit of course.



It's all good training. I remember when I was in Pet they used to buzz over Muskrat Lake to check out the cottages in the Kiowas....contour flying.


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## retiredgrunt45

> I still remember standing on my balcony in Yellowknife at mid-day watching a CF-18 take off from the airport (back about '88) and loving the show.  He tucked the gear up and made a tight port bank over the Range Lake South neighbourhood.  Absolutely wonderful!
> 
> A day or so later I was talking w/ the Public Affairs Offr at NorReg, and mentioned to him how much I appreciated the CF-18.  His reply astounded me. He said "well, you're one of the few.  Most of the people that phoned in wanted him hung, drawn, and quartered!"
> 
> Just goes to show; people don't appreciate a great moment when they see it. Of course, I'm the guy who--as a kid staying with friends in France--stayed up long after bedtime just watching the Canadian Starfighters take off for their patrols. Sigh.



 I hear ya, In Germany, living in the base PMQ's, we got so used to the fighters taking off in Baden, that when days when there was no flights, which wasn't very often, we all said it was to damn quiet, we can't sleep at night without the engine noise, please fly so we can a good nights sleep. ;D We always enjoyed it when a plane came out from repair and we got our very own air show, watching the test pilot put the plane through it's paces. I never got tired of watching that, utterly amazing each and every time, what that pilot did with that fighter! Those were the days and I surely miss them.... :'(


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## Inch

I trimmed off the Kiowa stuff into it's own thread, if I missed any, let me or one of the other DS know.


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## C1Dirty

> ...and sometimes, we just plain go sightseeing. Maybe one of the crew owned property in the area and at the end of a training flight, just flew over to show the rest of the crew.  Could be just that simple.



Must be nice to have the extra YFR.  We're having a hard time finding the hours to tick off a prof IRT, let alone maintain currencies for overseas obligations.


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## aesop081

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> Must be nice to have the extra YFR.  We're having a hard time finding the hours to tick off a prof IRT, let alone maintain currencies for overseas obligations.



We dont have any extra YFR in fact we just took a huge cut.  But we have to fly home from the Patrol areas so.......


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## Zoomie

C1Dirty said:
			
		

> Must be nice to have the extra YFR.



FWSAR get 4-6 hours per day to train with - not really extra YFR just part of the standby duty.


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## Retired AF Guy

Strike said:
			
		

> On a related note, there were two Hornets (I think 2, never saw them but heard them) kicking around Kingston on Saturday about noon.  Any ideas?  They didn't stop for fuel.  I was going to stop by to see if it was anyone I knew.



Probably doing some "touch and goes." I heard them and that's what it sounded like. The pilots have to get a certain number of hours of flight time per month, so they go on cross-country navigation trips to get the hours in and sometimes they do touch and goes. This is not the first time they have been in Kingston; I've heard them doing touch and goes on previous occasions. They probably use Kingston because it has a good airport and its off busier flight paths and the pilots have fewer restrictions to worry about.


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## Strike

I think it had more to do with the possibility of one of the pilots being from Kingston...there are a few of them still around.


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## BattleHawk

Living in Coquitlam, near Vancouver, I get to see the Buffalos and the Cormorants from Comox (and the occasional 'My Ass was Saved, 442 Para-Rescue Squadron Comox BC bumper stickers) when they do some 'siteseeing' flying to or from their various commitments. The traffic picks up for the Abbotsford Airshow, but not much Hornet, I've only seen them screaming past on 9/11 (and they were really low, near full throttle), Practicing with the Snowbirds (for Abbotsford) and the best was four in a diamond formation at the Greycup. Just wait until Lord Stanley make a visit to town...


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## Strike

;D

Saw our wonderful new mean machine ripping around the Kingston airspace today.  There were more than a few people in vehicles pointing.


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## Big Foot

Seeing our C-17 roaring over Point Frederick today was a thing of beauty. I still can't get over how well a machine that large can move through the air.


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## AndrewB2020

That is one big beautiful bird  ...was out back bbq'ing when I saw her flying about - stupid me didn't grab the camera...next time I'll get some pics.


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## RyeGuy

Re: Can you identify this for me

Thanks to all who responded, you have been very helpful (especially for someone who knows absolutely nothing about airplanes)...The reason I was concerned was not because of noise, just curiosity and a bit of suspicion.  I think it was probably just doing SAR. that being said, I'm fairly agnostic when it comes to chemtrails and have been researching it a little bit so when something like this happens in your own backyard and you're open to the idea, then you start to ask questions (which is a good thing anyways)....The research I've done seems to indicate that the C-130 and the K-135 are the planes that are primarily used in these alleged operations.  I think the picture I took last weekend shows a K-135, I thought I  would ask the experts though.....It looks like an unmarked white plane.  Can anyone verify this and maybe shed some light on what this plane was doing? There are also some photos of some "trails", so if anyone has any opinions, it wouldbe greatly appreciated.....Thanks...

http://www.mts.net/~johnmath/plane/


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## aesop081

Those are condensation trails on the first aircraft......This is naturaly occuring when you put hot exhaust gases into cold air

The second is a C-130 and those are simply the exhaust trails from the Allison Turboprops.....(T-56-A-14-LFE if you realy want to know) They are famous for leaving long black "fingers" behind them 


"chemtrails"   :

Leave your conspiracy theories at the door


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## George Wallace

OK

You are seriously turning into a "Conspiracy Theorist".  Those vapour trails are natural.  You will see them behind any aircraft under the correct weather conditions.  There is a very scientific explanation for this occurance; one that I will leave to an expert........................but rest assured, IT IS NOT CHEMICAL SPRAYING!


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## George Wallace

Next thing we are likely to hear from you now, is that the Military is spraying your town when they drive their trucks through on a -40 Celsius day in Februrary.... :


Do you know what the air temperature is at the altitude that those aircraft are flying?


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## Franko

Merged both topics.

*The Milnet.ca Staff*


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## RyeGuy

I guess the chemtrail advocates would ask a couple of follow up questions.

1. Why is it only in the last 10 years that we have seen what would be seen as chemtrails? (existing in crisscross patterns for long periods of time. Normal contrails disappear fairly fast...The one in my photo was there for over an hour.)

2. Chemtrails have appeared in all kinds of weather conditions.

I'm not accusing the military of spraying in this case but I think its important to keep in mind that the military has conducted spraying tests on the public in the past.  The pentagon has admitted to conducting 36 tests over the city of Winnipeg in 1953 in which they tested cancer causing agents....This is admitted by the Pentagon.....I've got the Toronto Star article from the 90's where they reported from the Pentagon press conference....


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## krustyrl

Pentagon..??    ???


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## Scott

RyeGuy said:
			
		

> 1. Why is it only in the last 10 years that we have seen what would be seen as chemtrails? (existing in crisscross patterns for long periods of time. Normal contrails disappear fairly fast...The one in my photo was there for over an hour.)



What leads you to believe it's only been the last ten years? I've seen them all my life. I've also seen many that have lasted over an hour, guess that explains that ringing in my ears...



> 2. Chemtrails have appeared in all kinds of weather conditions.



Such as?



> I'm not accusing the military of spraying in this case but I think its important to keep in mind that the military has conducted spraying tests on the public in the past.  The pentagon has admitted to conducting 36 tests over the city of Winnipeg in 1953 in which they tested cancer causing agents....This is admitted by the Pentagon.....I've got the Toronto Star article from the 90's where they reported from the Pentagon press conference....



Are you drawing comparisons? Cause I see apples and bowling balls, friend. And all this time I thought I didn't like Winnipeg because it is hot as f*ck in the summer and cold as f*ck in the winter, turns out the Pentagon may be to blame :


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## aesop081

RyeGuy said:
			
		

> I guess the chemtrail advocates would ask a couple of follow up questions.



You're not an advocate, just another conspiracy nutjob



> 1. Why is it only in the last 10 years that we have seen what would be seen as chemtrails? (existing in crisscross patterns for long periods of time. Normal contrails disappear fairly fast...The one in my photo was there for over an hour.)



B-17s in world war 2 were leaving giant condensation trails that lasted hours after they passed......"10 years" my ass.  You see what you want to see and obviously dont understand the science.     http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/atmosphere/contrails/b17-contrails.jpg



> 2. Chemtrails have appeared in all kinds of weather conditions.



CONTRAILS........CONTRAILS...........CONTRAILS.......as in CONDENSATION TRAILS !!!!  In the case of your pictures of a C-130 in Kenora, they are exhaust trails left by the engines burning JP-8 fuel..........thats it thats all.




> I'm not accusing the military of spraying in this case but I think its important to keep in mind that the military has conducted spraying tests on the public in the past.  The pentagon has admitted to conducting 36 tests over the city of Winnipeg in 1953 in which they tested cancer causing agents....This is admitted by the Pentagon.....I've got the Toronto Star article from the 90's where they reported from the Pentagon press conference....



More conspiracy nutjob stuff....


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## Inch

George Wallace said:
			
		

> OK
> 
> You are seriously turning into a "Conspiracy Theorist".  Those vapour trails are natural.  You will see them behind any aircraft under the correct weather conditions.  There is a very scientific explanation for this occurance; one that I will leave to an expert........................but rest assured, IT IS NOT CHEMICAL SPRAYING!



Ok, I'll give the explanation a go.

Every engine that burns hydro carbons (ie fossil fuels) creates a multitude of byproducts, two major by products are Carbon Dioxide (CO2) and water. The water is in gas form due to the heat of the combustion. 

The temperature drops with altitude at what's called the adiabatic lapse rate, there are two lapse rates, dry and saturated. The dry adiabatic lapse rate is 3 degrees Celsius per 1000 ft, once the air reaches saturation (the point at which clouds form), the rate drops to 1.5 degrees Celsius per 1000 ft. The average lapse rate is 2 degrees per 1000 ft.  So if it's 15 degrees on the surface, it will be 12 degrees at 1000 ft, 9 degrees at 2000 ft and so on until the temperature/dew point spread reaches zero and the air becomes saturated, but using the average lapse rate, we can deduce that if the surface temp is 25 degrees, then at 25,000 ft, the temp will be approx 50 degrees cooler, or -25 degrees. 

Since cold air cannot hold as much moisture as warm air, the water vapour from the exhaust condenses and forms clouds and condensation trails (contrails). Another phenomenon that happens is that the exhaust provides condensation nuclei (ie, a solid for the water vapour to condense on), so with the combo of cold air, high water vapour content and condensation nuclei, you will see contrails.

As for the Herc's black tails, as was explained earlier, turbine engines are not the most efficient and they often leave a black sooty exhaust hanging in the air, not unlike the black exhaust you see from diesel engined trucks.


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## Inch

I forgot to add that the length of time they stay visible depends on the air temp at the altitude they're flying at, it's not uncommon for it to be -50 at 30,000 - 35,000 ft. So the higher the aircraft, the longer the contrails will last. Check it out in the winter, they stay for hours and hours. This is of course if there's no cloud cover obscuring the contrails from view. But trust me, they're there every day, all year round and they've been forming since we've began high altitude flight.


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## Zoomie

That white aircraft you have on your website is most probably an Air Canada Airbus 340.  Note the four engines and winglets.  It could also be a Boeing 747-400 series aircraft too.


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## Sf2

You're on to them dude....

I foresee black helicopters in your future.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Well to avoid any further pile ups! Locked

Milnet.Ca Staff


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