# Armoured Taking Over as a FOO-Discussion



## snowpuncher (5 Oct 2004)

It has come to our attention that the armoured personnel think that they can take over our jobs as FOO S or FOO TECHS. What is next are we going to give our guns to service battalion.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Oct 2004)

Please site your source.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Oct 2004)

I'm sure with the training they could, what we're the only intelligent enough to do it?
Like was said earlier how has it come to "our" attention and also to put some credibility on yourself how about a little info in your profile?
Not a good way to start here on army.ca :-[


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## 48Highlander (5 Oct 2004)

Last year all Infantry MCpl's & Sgt's in 32 CBG got a lecture and practical practice (on SAT) on how to act as a FOO.  This doesn't mean we're looking to get rid of arty FOO's, just that we need to be able to do the job if you're not around.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Oct 2004)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Last year all Infantry MCpl's & Sgt's in 32 CBG got a lecture and practical practice (on SAT) on how to act as a FOO. This doesn't mean we're looking to get rid of arty FOO's, just that we need to be able to do the job if you're not around.



48,

I'm guessing it was not a FOO per se, but how to call a fire mission acting as the observer. This may be where the confusion lies. All Arm'd Recce guys can and do call Fire Missions. It, along with the radio, are our main weapons. Calling Fire Missions however, are a long way away from what an Arty FOO does. For example, we are not responsible for setting out the Bg Fire Plan or registering targets. Look at the Fire Mission in the Unit SOP's. It's almost two and a half page format is a far cry from the Fire Mission we send compared to what the FOO deals with. He fills in the blanks for us to the guns. As far forward as we are, it's seldom we would talk directly to the Arty CP, but would pass everything through the FOO.


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## 48Highlander (5 Oct 2004)

You're right, I guess I was misusing the term.  Just goes to demonstrate that we're not about to take over their jobs any time soon


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## snowpuncher (5 Oct 2004)

being  currently employed in a foo party there is a on  going decision that the armoured will be deployed in the future as foo party's on operations . so basically it is saying that they can do my job in which i beg to differ.


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## Lance Wiebe (5 Oct 2004)

Recceguy is correct.  All crew commanders in the Armour are trained to call in Artillery, with or without a FOO.  Some Armour are fully qualified FOO and FAC, but not a lot of them.  Some of us also trained to use the tanks as indirect fire weapon platforms, but that training was cut out quite a few years ago.  It required ammunition.  And time.  Both were taken away.

But take over all the duties of the FOO?  Ain't gonna happen.

Believe the Armour guys that post here.

Don't believe all the rumours you hear.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Oct 2004)

snowpuncher said:
			
		

> so basically it is saying that they can do my job in which i beg to differ.



Nor are you capable of doing mine at the moment.  ;D However, with the adequate training we COULD do each other's job. Let's not quibble though, like Lance said, to paraphrase, "quit panicing".  Once again though, if you have something concrete to back your claim, other than rumour and innuendo, I'd be interested to see it.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Oct 2004)

I think it would be good for more people to learn this skills.  
Infantry recce and snipers also learn this craft in more detail then the standard infantry soilder.


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## elscotto937 (6 Oct 2004)

I think what snow puncher is talking about is the employment of Armoured Guys in traditional Arty roles on peace support operations. For example, Athena ROTO 3, there was a debate on whether the FAC position would be manned by the RCD or 2 Horse. Bottom line is that, neither side should worry, I don't want to be a Recce Guy and I'm almost positive the they don't want to be a FOO or FOO Tech. This is something that is being decided at levels much higher than mine, as every trade is trying to map out thier domain.
The problem for the guns is that on PSOs a fire planning forward observers are not normally needed, and the FAC and FOO Tech are qualifications that the Armour guys can get, if the armoured take these jobs on PSOs them the guns loose a significant operational commitment(often the only Arty guys that go with a Battle Group are the FOO Parties).

And Lance remember that Recce guys can be FOO *Techs* and FACs, not FOOs... I know it's a very small point, but I'm being picky today...


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## George Wallace (6 Oct 2004)

If I may hesitate to take a guess as to where this rumour may have started: it may be from the fact that Armd can now be more proficient in calling in a first round hit on their first correction during a Fire Mission using the Coyote Surveillance Suite.  The Coyote Surv Suite is very accurate and that may be why the Arty are coming on board and looking at getting the next generation of this suite.  This in no way implies that the Armd OPS are going to take over the FOO and/or FAC roles from the Arty, only that Armd Crewmen will be more effective and proficient at calling in Fire Missions in the Armour role.

GW


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## Lance Wiebe (6 Oct 2004)

All Hel Observers were qualified FOO, not FOO Tech.

That's where our qualified guys came from, not from any training ongoing now....I should have been clearer when I said some Armour are qualified.


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## elscotto937 (6 Oct 2004)

Lance, Never heard of that, if I'm wrong then I stand corrected, I was not aware the armoured guys who were employed as airborne observers attended the Arty Field Troop Comd Crse.


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## jeff001 (6 Oct 2004)

A couple of points here I would like to put input on. The supported arms pers that take the FOO Tech course are not assessed on several PO's that the Gunners require in order to obtain the qualification. The Coyote surveliance suite for obtaining first round hits, has flaws from my personal experience, the camera shows the target only in two dimensions, not 3, which is required to verify tgt rounds, this is even more apparent when firing fuzed ammuntion. It takes to long for the suite to be deployed and can only be used in static positions, not during mobile operations. From watching the supported arms call in fire in the IFT, the majority of the shoots are strictly A/N, in the supported arms call for fire, with no zone and standard Met conditions, any variations cause considerable trouble and ineffective fire. The final point is the difference between, my loc stat and tgt loc stat (from the TAC NAV), which has resulted in check firing on several occasions. I give the guys credit for trying, but the time it takes us to learn, after the course is years of constant practice. To assume that because I did one course does make me qualified, but proficient is a different story.


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## The Bat (6 Oct 2004)

I agree with CFL i think they should be aware of how to call in Arty Fire... just last year i helped out a Recce patrol course and gave them some bullets so they can call in Arty fire and which they did.. but this will not take the job away from use they still have to fire plan and and link up to the guys on the ground... everybody has a place on the battel field but you should at least have a grip on what others are doing and how they are going to react....and its good to teach other people how to call in arty fire and also give them a touch of calling in fast air... it just gives you thats much more info... i now how to use that Radar in the Coyote does that make me a Recce god????? no it just lets me no what it can do and what it cant do.....


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## George Wallace (6 Oct 2004)

First off......The Coyote will not be adjusting fire by the use of its cameras, it will be adjusting fire with the radar and FLIR and on the computer.  Armd Surv Ops are quite proficient with the use of their equipment (when it works) and a single round adjustment onto tgt is just the movement of a cursor on their screen.  The system is constantly being improved on and soon they will have 3D maps to work with.

Get out sometime and watch them do their thing.

As I said earlier, the Armd crews are not going to be replacing FOO or FAC pers, just becoming more proficient at their jobs.  If the FOO and FAC parties get the Surv Suites, they will have the same problems with setup/tear down times, and will have to use their current methods for action on the move.

GW


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## jeff001 (7 Oct 2004)

I did get out there and watch, actually I fired a couple of missions, using the method the Armoured said they plan to use it. If the FOO/FAC parties get their surv. suites? As far as we know there is no plan for this, currently we use the MSTAR, which has differences than the one in the Coyote. We use the MSTAR with the new LAV OPV. As for the Armoured replacing the FOO/FAC parties, I understand snowpunchers argument and the reason for his original post, and can verify it.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Oct 2004)

Well, the verification I'd like to see is not some rumour tossed around in the mess, or a bunch of guys tossing out ideas. If it's come down as fact, it should be on paper somewhere.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (7 Oct 2004)

As im sure Rocky 31 can attest to,the armed forces does have a good piece of kit in the surveillance suite but that just means the higher ups will overtask them elsewhere and even, god forbid, deploy an arty foo party to do surveillance.I believe what weve got here is another rumour started around the mess table that got mixed with both fact and fiction.I guess it comes from that hidden fear of further military cutbacks and how to deal with them.In the end though I would welcome the idea that on a battlefield, any soldier could call in fire provided they do it as per standard "strictly in accordance with the intention of the originator, and with a minimum of delay" :skull:  :skull:


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## FOO TECH G11 (8 Oct 2004)

recceguy - it is on paper somewhere, and you as armoured should be able to find it, but because of OP SEC, snowpuncher is not able to quote where the information has come from. I can verify this info as correct as can tech, that unless things change shortly on the TO&E, there will be no Artillery going as FOO/FAC's.

shelldrake - I can attest that the surv suite is an excellent piece of kit for surv., but as show in Ops, while working with the RCD's we still did eyes on targets at night as they used the surv suite for there work.


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## Scoobie Newbie (8 Oct 2004)

How would OP SEC apply to where the info came from if the info itself is being posted???


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## snowpuncher (25 Nov 2004)

it is official now that the RCD'S have taken over the role as observers away from the artillery for roto3. i am literally disgusted in this and might as well give our guns to the svc bn so they can man them. i mean pretty much every operation overseas has at least one foo/fac team over there and now they are saying that the artillery is not required to send these personnel overseas so they might as well just disband the artillery if every time some unit loses some vechs ie the armoured losing there tanks. So this must mean that the army is going to
 accommodation them by taking away traditional jobs that have been held for many years.Mainly with those idiots in Ottawa that sit behind a desk and don't know jack about the situation, considering that they will probally send the next roto over with out any force protection.


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## Observer23 (3 Feb 2005)

Calm and clarity is required here.  Everyone and anyone can call in a fire mission.  Recce and Armoured guys often train to call in fire missions.  This is great.  Recce is the first to see the bad guys.  If the target warrants a couple of cans of whoop-ass, then by all means call it in (and don't be shy with the volume of fire).  This does not make them FEOs (FOOs).

Artillery observers are specialists.  Every soldier should know first-aid.  This does not mean we are all qualified as medics.  FEOs and FE techs are specialists just like medics.  They do a lot more that just call in a simple fire mission.  It is their job to fire plan and coordinate multiple fire support resources.  I've been doing this for almost two thirds of my career and I will be the first to admit I do not know everything.  To view artillery forward observation as a skill like knot tying is a bit short sighted.  It is a discipline that requires a constant commitment of continual learning, practice and evaluation of your results and thinking.  

FEOs advisor the Sup Arm Cmdr on what guns can do for their operation.  Who else knows the limitations and abilities of our own equipment?
FEOs establish OPs as directed by the BC.  We have depth battles to consider as well as local.
FEOs act as another set of eyes on the ground.  This benefits both the Sup Arms Cmdr and the FSCC to get a grip on the big picture.
FEOs investigate hostile indirect fire support resources.  This may include crater analysis (I've actually done this) or preparing counter battery data.
FEOs report back suitability of terrain for future gun positions.  I find it hard to believe anybody else (outside the artillery) would be able to do a proper estimate on terrain requirements for a gun battery.

Yes you could employ FE parties in their lay back role or as a solo act searching the countryside but that job is better suited to the guys in recce (armoured).  Every soldier can dig a trench with a shovel.  This does not qualify me as a backhoe operator.


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## strat0 (10 Feb 2005)

We in the Armoured Corps have had qualified FAC's for years and they have been in high demand in operations, FAC qualified pers were Hel Observers (Armd, Inf & Arty) remember Kiawa's? The Armoured Corps is not taking over the role as FOO, we are used as Observers and do the job of Arty OP's (calling for fire). As for the RADAR we have the same MSTAR as you, we just started with the 1st generation version and are only now upgrading to the 2nd generation which you, in the Arty have. I have personaly called for fire with both the MSTAR and the Day Camera/FLIR at CTC Gagetown, in conjunction with the Arty School and I can say that the equipment is capable of 1 round adjust to hit the target 99% of the time. Using a laser point technique (given by the Arty) in our Recce TTP, a second round hit was always achieved. So I  don't understand where the accuracy issue comes from.

my 2 cents


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## FOO TECH G11 (13 Jun 2005)

and what with observer23's immense knowledge in his toon time job, we can see just how far two thirds of his career can go

UBIQUE


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## Coyote43D (18 Jun 2005)

TECH. said:
			
		

> currently we use the MSTAR, which has differences than the one in the Coyote. We use the MSTAR with the new LAV OPV.



We just upgraded the Radar on the Coyotes, we are now using the same MSTAR as on the LAV OPV.


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## Recce41 (19 Jun 2005)

Fellas
 The Armour Corp has had Foos and Facs. Remember Armour Recce regts had Mortors and most of the Army Pilots were Armour back in the 50s. As for the Radar, I have fired a few radar fire missions. The School is to have 8 FACs and 2 Armour FOO postions, but due that we are too busy, we don't send anyone.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (19 Jun 2005)

Just to clarify things for those not up to speed on terminology, A FOO is a foreward observation officer who gets qualified on the foreward observation officers course including in depth fire planning. A FOO tech is the foreward observation officers technician who is also capeable of calling in fire, basic fireplanning and through time and experience can often be much more profficient than many FOO's(Yea thats my foo tech jab at officers). The FOO TECH course is currently run by the Artillery and almost always includes other arms elements such as armoured and infantry.

 Someone correct me if im wrong but I know of no other arms elements currently being offered the FOO course. And just because you have the foo tech course, without practice in the IFT (indirect fire simulator) and application of your skills live in the field, you tend to lose the skills you learned on the foo tech course.

 Again I will say that I fully support "cross training" so there are more people on the battlefield able to call in fire, but unless the skills are maintained (which usually can only happen within the Arty trade) the likelihood of a Battery commander alloting fire to someone who did a foo tech course in 1989 is slim to none.

 As for the FAC course, I don't think it should even be verbally balled in with this topic as a FAC qualified person is equally ideal when placed in a FOO party or when placed with armour or infantry. Its just much easier placed in the FOO party since they are deployed at the foreward edge with the best view of the ground.


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## muskrat89 (19 Jun 2005)

> and what with observer23's immense knowledge in his toon time job, we can see just how far two thirds of his career can go



Nor does a catty response to a post 6 months old impress me.  You need to develop an "immense knowledge" of the Conduct Guidelines.

You can quit with the toon time comments, and maybe try to add something substantive to the thread. Thanks in advance.


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