# Fantino in/out of VAC:  changes in DM/other staff (merged)



## The Bread Guy

The new Minister, from the PM's Twitter feed ....


> Pleased to name @JulianFantino Minister of Veterans Affairs



New Minister's bio ....


> Julian Fantino was first elected to the House of Commons in 2010 and re-elected in 2011.
> 
> In July 2013, Mr. Fantino was appointed Minister of Veterans Affairs. Previously, he was appointed Minister of State (Seniors) in January 2011 and Associate Minister of National Defence in May 2011. He was appointed Minister of International Cooperation in July 2012.
> 
> Prior to his election to Parliament, Mr. Fantino served almost 40 years in law enforcement. He was Chief of the York Regional Police and of the Toronto Police Service. He served as Ontario's Commissioner of Emergency Preparedness and as Commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police. Mr. Fantino is also the former President of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police and the former Vice-President at Large of the International Association of Chiefs of Police.
> 
> Mr. Fantino is active in local and international victim rights groups, including as an honorary member of Canadian Crime Victims Foundation. He is also involved in community organizations, including programs to make organized sports accessible to disadvantaged children; supports the Hospice Vaughan; and participates on the board of Vaughan's Villa Leonardo Gambin long-term care facility.
> 
> He and his wife, Liviana, have two children.


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## Wookilar

Well........@#$%


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## The Bread Guy

Here's what the Vets' Ombudsman says he's up to with a new Minister appointed ....


> .... I have already engaged with the new ministerial staff, and have had a fulsome discussion with Minister Fantino’s new Chief of Staff, Jacques Fauteux – a former member of the Canadian Armed Forces, who I had the pleasure of working with when I served as Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer. I have been informed that the Minister is eager to meet with me at the earliest opportunity and I look forward to briefing him on the key elements of my Office’s operational work, plans for the future and ongoing concerns.
> 
> I intend to maintain the collaborative approach of the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman. I am determined to continue to provide the Minister and Veterans with evidenced-based advice in consultation with the Veterans Community. The reports that my Office publishes will continue also to offer timely, factual and relevant information on both existing and emerging issues of concern.
> 
> My primary focus now is the New Veterans Charter and the upcoming review of the Enhanced New Veterans Charter Act. I am concentrating my efforts on the financial, vocational assistance and family support aspects of the Charter and I will continue to call for a broadened Charter review to address shortcomings in these areas ....


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## The Bread Guy

Minister issues a statement "in support of Canada’s Veterans and their families" - highlights mine:


> "Since becoming Canada’s Minister of Veterans Affairs four weeks ago, I have stood alongside Veterans at major commemorative milestones abroad, met with the Veterans Ombudsman, and been reaching out to Canadians far and wide in order to learn and listen to their views. In that time, some have asked about Canada’s commitment to our Veterans. I can assure all my fellow citizens, and particularly our Veterans and their families, that this Government and the dedicated professionals at Veterans Affairs Canada are truly devoted to supporting those military and RCMP members who served our great country.
> 
> "Our Government continues to demonstrate its strong commitment to caring for, supporting and honouring Canada’s Veterans and their families. Since implementing the New Veterans Charter in 2006, our Government has invested almost $4.7 billion in new funding to enhance Veterans benefits, programs and services. Put simply, the Government of Canada has substantially increased its support to Veterans.
> 
> "Just as importantly, this new spending is built upon the fundamental principles of respect and support for Veterans. That foundation of respect is spelled out in the New Veterans Charter, and the Prime Minister of Canada reinforced it when he announced the New Charter’s implementation as the first step toward according Canadian Veterans the dignity and support they deserve.
> 
> "In the years since, our Government has repeatedly demonstrated its commitment to Canada’s Veterans and their families by building on our improvements with new enhancements. We instituted a Veterans Bill of Rights, created the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman to strengthen our ability to respond quickly and fairly to the concerns of Veterans and their families, dramatically improved the range and quality of services to Veterans and worked with hundreds of communities clear across the country to preserve and build memorials to those Canadians who served.
> 
> "All Canadians can rest assured that our Government will keep building on this record. We will continue to listen to Veterans, and to work with partners who share our common goal of supporting those who put their lives on the line for Canada. *We are here to deliver the care and support Veterans need, when they need it. That is our promise to Veterans. Always has been. Always will be.*"


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## Rifleman62

VAC Minister:



> ......four weeks ago, I have stood alongside Veterans at major commemorative milestones *abroad*


 = expensive TD swan(s).



> .......been reaching out to Canadians *
> 
> 
> 
> far and wide
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> * in order to learn and listen to their views.......


 = possible more TD swans and expensive phone bill. I would like to know who he contacted far and wide in four weeks, not counting his abroad swans (s).


> .....*.dedicated* professionals at Veterans Affairs Canada.....


 = dedicated to what? Pissing Vets around to justified their job. Not all, but many.


> .......invested almost $4.7 billion in new funding to enhance Veterans benefits, programs and services....


 = how much went to overhead, and how much directly went to a Vet?

And so on. Sounds like rhetoric to me, and no change to the pensions/cash *settlement*


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## The Bread Guy

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> VAC Minister:
> = expensive TD swan(s).
> 
> [/b] in order to learn and listen to their views....... = possible more TD swans and expensive phone bill. I would like to know who he contacted far and wide in four weeks, not counting his abroad swans (s). = dedicated to what? Pissing Vets around to justified their job. Not all, but many. = how much went to overhead, and how much directly went to a Vet?
> 
> And so on. Sounds like rhetoric to me, and no change to the pensions/cash *settlement*


All he has to do is act, not just issue statements.

Simple, but not easy.


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## Nemo888

I remember him from Toronto. I can't say I remember anything good. He seemed to openly dislike the cops who worked for him and covered up corruption. His own senior officers leaked the story of cops taking drug bust money. He brought a very corporate mindset to a paramilitary organization and was always battling with the union. He micromanaged things like officer meal times and use of fax machines.

I think he eventually faced a vote of no confidence from his own force. They have telegraphed pretty clearly what they have in mind if that is who they gave the nod. A politician skilled at public relations who threw his own troops under the bus at every opportunity.


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## Future Pensioner

"Newly-minted Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino hasn't exactly been winning friends recently. Nor his influence on veterans been inspirational, except in the way that an emetic inspires. It appears the Honourable Minister is in over his head with his portfolio... or perhaps gagging on it... as mere months after his appointment -- and before he has even taken his seat -- veterans are demanding his resignation. Fantino has been handling the issues at Veterans Affairs with all the grace of a newborn moose on ice skates."

more of the article:  http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jeff-rosemartland/canada-veterans-affairs_b_4103494.html


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## stokerwes

I've written my MP about this and other things. Can't wait to vote!!


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## Privateer

The author differentiates between the RCMP and other "civilian" police forces, stating that RCMP members - like CF members - sign on for "unlimited liability", while civilian police forces do not.  It is not my understanding that RCMP members can be differentiated from other police officers on this basis.  Am I incorrect?


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## Navy_Pete

I thought RCMP were included because they are federal and including them under the VAC envelope made sense.


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## stokerwes

I might be wrong but RCMP do and can participate in peacekeeping activities. I remember the RCMP officer that was killed while working in Haiti after the earthquake, news photos of him showed him wearing a blue UN beret. I would assume this would entail unlimited liability due to the nature of this type of operation. If it was just because they were federal employees they could have just been lumped in with the rest of the federal employees under one union or another.


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## George Wallace

stokerwes said:
			
		

> I might be wrong but RCMP do and can participate in peacekeeping activities. I remember the RCMP officer that was killed while working in Haiti after the earthquake, news photos of him showed him wearing a blue UN beret. I would assume this would entail unlimited liability due to the nature of this type of operation. If it was just because they were federal employees they could have just been lumped in with the rest of the federal employees under one union or another.



RCMP and other LEOs partake in Peacekeeping overseas.


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## Occam

Unlike the CF whose eligibility ended when the New Veterans Charter took effect in 2006, RCMP past and present are still covered under the Pension Act, which is administered by VAC.  They are eligible for disability pensions, treatment benefits, and VIP benefits.


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## Fishbone Jones

Let's try stay on track folks.

The thread is about Minister Fantino and his visions of, personally, being a veteran.


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## JorgSlice

RCMP unlike most other police services also have Battle Honours. For him to include is disgraceful career as Chiefs of Police for London, OPP, York is sad. He's trying to justify the fact he doesn't know squat about his job.


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## GAP

Fantino has been a joke ever since I first heard of him when he was with the Toronto Police, OPP, and now as an MP. 

He's a dilettante with connections that, from the sounds of it, never hesitated to step on the back of those around and under him to lift himself up.

 :2c:


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## ARMY_101

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> "Newly-minted Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino hasn't exactly been winning friends recently. Nor his influence on veterans been inspirational, except in the way that an emetic inspires. It appears the Honourable Minister is in over his head with his portfolio... or perhaps gagging on it... as mere months after his appointment -- and before he has even taken his seat -- veterans are demanding his resignation. Fantino has been handling the issues at Veterans Affairs with all the grace of a newborn moose on ice skates."
> 
> more of the article:  http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jeff-rosemartland/canada-veterans-affairs_b_4103494.html



I must be missing something.

*"I spent 40 years in law enforcement. I too have served. I've been at the trenches and heard the guns go off. I guess I can also put myself and other colleagues, firefighters, and police officers who put themselves in harms way every day in the same category."*

Nowhere does Fantino say "I'm a veteran like you guys too!" or "my police service is the same as your military service."  All he's saying is that he's provided selfless service, he's been shot at, and he's been in harms way. Which is true.


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## Fishbone Jones

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> I must be missing something.
> 
> *"I spent 40 years in law enforcement. I too have served. I've been at the trenches and heard the guns go off. I guess I can also put myself and other colleagues, firefighters, and police officers who put themselves in harms way every day in the same category."*
> 
> Nowhere does Fantino say "I'm a veteran like you guys too!" or "my police service is the same as your military service."  All he's saying is that he's provided selfless service, he's been shot at, and he's been in harms way. Which is true.



*"I spent 40 years in law enforcement. I too have served. I guess I can also put myself in the same category."*

There, with the political and rhetorical fluff removed.

What category is he talking about?

He's talking about veterans.

And placing himself in that category.

Simple enough for you now?


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Here is the true text of what Mr. Fantino said.....

"ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME"


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## ARMY_101

recceguy said:
			
		

> *"I spent 40 years in law enforcement. I too have served. I guess I can also put myself in the same category."*
> 
> There, with the political and rhetorical fluff removed.
> 
> What category is he talking about?
> 
> He's talking about veterans.
> 
> And placing himself in that category.
> 
> Simple enough for you now?



No. He's putting himself in the same category as those "who put themselves in harms way every day." To which he legitimately belongs.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> No. He's putting himself in the same category as those "who put themselves in harms way every day." To which he legitimately belongs.



Bullshit........self serving kife.


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## The Bread Guy

One vet's opinion:  don't come to 11 Nov ceremonies, PM, and dump that VAC Minister:


> According to Veteran Affairs Canada, Nov 11 is a date that serves as: “remembrance for the men and women who have served, and continue to serve our country during times of war, conflict and peace.”  As a Veteran of peacekeeping, peacemaking, and war I am disinviting you Mr. Prime Minister, and your caucus, from Remembrance Day ceremonies across Canada.  Your continued hostility towards Canada’s Veterans makes you an unwelcome guest.
> 
> Mr. Harper you have led a cruel and deliberate campaign of harm against disabled veterans.  Afghan War Veterans that fall under the New Veterans Charter are suing the government in an attempt to regain fair compensation and care.  But your office prefers to waste tax dollars conducting legal delay tactics instead of respecting court decisions. These same tactics were used for seven years against Dennis Manuge while he combatted the unjust SISIP clawback.  In the mean time, disabled Veterans are going bankrupt or will die in poverty.  Continued delays damage both the Veteran and their young families
> 
> I encourage you to allow Veterans to exercise the rights we have defended for other Canadians.
> 
> Minister Julian Fantino, a combative ex-police officer who sees himself above Veterans, leads your information effort.  The minister is working hard to address the “tangle of misinformation regarding how Canada treats” its Veterans.  By the way, that very minister utters much of the tangled misinformation and continues to mislead Canadians.
> 
> Please replace Minister Fantino.
> 
> Your government argues that parliament, not the courts, is the appropriate place to address the situation.  Yet, you have had a majority government for years and have done nothing but add a veneer of change.  Furthermore, you feel that this government should not be bound by promises of previous governments because:  ”their argument could have a far broader impact than perhaps intended by the plaintiffs”.  Canada was built on promises; therefore, your argument makes Canada a lie.  Tell me Mr. Prime Minster, if the government is not bound by previous promises then why should any soldier fight to defend a lie? ....


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## Fishbone Jones

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> No. He's putting himself in the same category as those "who put themselves in harms way every day." To which he legitimately belongs.



Carry on. You're allowed to believe what you want.

Me? The sky is blue in my world.

I won't justify my stance, to you, any further.


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## mikeninercharlie

How many IEDs did he face driving through Toronto? Suicide Bombers? TB shooters with RPGs? He ain't a vet no matter how many times he says that "he's been in the trenches and heard the sound of gunfire". Two words Fantino, UNLIMITED LIABILITY, if you weren't subject to it, then you ain't one of us!


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## Fishbone Jones

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> One vet's opinion:  don't come to 11 Nov ceremonies, PM, and dump that VAC Minister:




Oooo. That's good. I like it.


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## jollyjacktar

You might as well add the last bit of his letter, it's worth it.

One Veteran's Opinion



> Through veiled words and actions you indicate that the economy is more important than the people who protect it.  You knew you were getting into a hard fight in Afghanistan.  I am sure the insurance-minded VAC and SISIP made it clear that disabled and wounded would be expensive.  Bluntly sir, paying down the deficit on the backs of the disabled is repugnant.
> 
> If you cannot afford the Veterans you cannot afford the war.
> 
> Mr. Harper this letter is not a political attack.  I am conservative by nature and, until recently, Conservative by ballot. Besides, you have bigger troubles than being disinvited to Remembrance Day; you have lost my confidence and vote.
> 
> Please demonstrate appropriate behaviour by taking a minute of silence at 11am on Nov 11 - in your office.


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## The Bread Guy

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> I must be missing something.
> 
> *"I spent 40 years in law enforcement. I too have served. I've been at the trenches and heard the guns go off. I guess I can also put myself and other colleagues, firefighters, and police officers who put themselves in harms way every day in the same category."*
> 
> Nowhere does Fantino say "I'm a veteran like you guys too!" or "my police service is the same as your military service."  All he's saying is that he's provided selfless service, he's been shot at, and he's been in harms way. Which is true.


It's called "messaging" - saying something without "saying" it.  I haven't listened to the entire interview, but if he's being interviewed as Veterans Affairs minister, I'd read it it that way too - he wants to sound like he's a vet, too.


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## The Bread Guy

recceguy said:
			
		

> Oooo. That's good. I like it.


Says what he means pretty clearly, don't he?


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## Fishbone Jones

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> It's called "messaging" - saying something without "saying" it.  I haven't listened to the entire interview, but if he's being interviewed as Veterans Affairs minister, I'd read it it that way too - he wants to sound like he's a vet, too.



I did listen to the whole interview and that is exactly the message he was trying to convey.


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## maniac

Agreed, when you are the VAC minister, he should not be talking about policing.  Even if he used the talk to say he's empathetic to VETERANS  based on his past, does not translate very well.   It should be clear and obvious there's no federal dept for police.


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## ARMY_101

maniac said:
			
		

> Agreed, when you are the VAC minister, he should not be talking about policing.



So he can't talk about his 40+ year career as a police officer? His time as a police officer, a city's chief of police, or the Commissioner of the OPP?  All that career history and experience goes out the window because he's the Veterans Affairs minister?  ???



> It should be clear and obvious there's no federal dept for police.



 ??? http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/index-eng.htm


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## Humphrey Bogart

maniac said:
			
		

> Agreed, when you are the VAC minister, he should not be talking about policing.  Even if he used the talk to say he's empathetic to VETERANS  based on his past, does not translate very well.   It should be clear and obvious there's no federal dept for police.





> http://www.rcmp.gc.ca/index-eng.htm



You were saying?  ??? ???

Btw, RCMP and other police forces *DO* serve overseas and face the same dangers our boys do.


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## Grunt_031

Again what is a Veteran?

Mandate for VAC



> VAC's mandate stems from laws and regulations. Among the more significant is the Department of Veterans Affairs Act, which charges the Minister of Veterans Affairs with the following responsibilities:
> 
> "...the care, treatment, or re-establishment in civil life of any person who served in the Canadian Forces or merchant navy or in the naval, army or air forces or merchant navies of Her Majesty, of any person who has otherwise engaged in pursuits relating to war, and of any other person designated ... and the care of the dependants or survivors of any person referred to ..."



Technically 6 months in the CF will get you a Veteran Plate in most province.



> How many IEDs did he face driving through Toronto? Suicide Bombers? TB shooters with RPGs?



*IED, Suicide Bombers, RPG's.*  I guess that exempts most WW1/WW2/Korea from veteran status.


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## maniac

Army 101 - when he's being interviewed as the Minister of VAC, what do you want him to say?,  talk about veterans or his policing past and start paralleling benefits because that's what's next.  Do you think this is leading to getting police included in the benefits of VAC or it's the campaign beginning to sway public opinion against the class action lawsuit?  I think I know what my answer is.

It's no secret there's a class action lawsuit against VAC and that appointments in cabinet are strategic. Be careful what you support as the last time they did this,  they pushed through the NVC with support from all parties.

I get he had a great career as a police officer but it's not his job to be speaking about police officers now.


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## maniac

I think the most important thing we should remember is that this is a cabinet minister.  They have prepared statements and there is a reason for everything they say.  Nobody is disputing his career as a police officer and the daily risk, rather why choose this forum to speak to it?


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## ARMY_101

maniac said:
			
		

> Army 101 - when he's being interviewed as the Minister of VAC, what do you want him to say?,  talk about veterans or his policing past and start paralleling benefits because that's what's next.  Do you think this is leading to getting police included in the benefits of VAC or it's the campaign beginning to sway public opinion against the class action lawsuit?  I think I know what my answer is.



Drop the conspiracy theories. He's a politician who had a life before politics - that life and experience is relevant to his work today. He didn't suddenly come into existence one day - he has a past and that past is important.  He was saying his past as a police officer is _similar_ to those he works for today in that he too has been shot at and served in a line of duty. It's not some grand conspiracy, it's the minister talking about his past experience.


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## maniac

Thanks for the advise but respectfully, I am entitled to my opinion.  Given the Ministers background, he would have been better suited for Public Safety.  Like I said,  those appointments are strategic and whatever comes out of their mouths is scripted.


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## George Wallace

This is a good read.  Perhaps the Minister should read it.

From the Huffington Post; Do You Know What Defines a Veteran? It's Not Just Combat, by Jeff Rose-Martland



> "A veteran is anyone who took an oath to be ordered to die for Canada -- generally in the Forces or RCMP. Becoming a veteran takes place at the time of the oath."


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## ARMY_101

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is a good read.  Perhaps the Minister should read it.
> 
> From the Huffington Post; Do You Know What Defines a Veteran? It's Not Just Combat, by Jeff Rose-Martland



I can't find "combat" anywhere in the definition of "veteran." Does that mean sailors and pilots aren't veterans because they aren't _in combat?_


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## Fishbone Jones

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> I can't find "combat" anywhere in the definition of "veteran." Does that mean sailors and pilots aren't veterans because they aren't _in combat?_



Did you even read the article??


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## JorgSlice

The point is, he's the *Minister of Veterans Affairs*. Under VAC the only 2 groups qualify: Members of the Canadian Armed Forces (and it's previous iterations under British rule etc.) past and present, and the RCMP. The only reason RCM *Police* are the only police included is that way back in the day, the RCMP as a unit of Dragoons had engaged in various battles of combat in wars both here in Canada and abroad which brought them Battle Honours. So for Mr. Fantino to spout his "veteran" crap referencing his disgraced time as a police officer and police chief for orgs that are NOT the RCMP, don't really give him any right or reason to say what he has.

Now, if he worded his speech a little differently and said  something like "I may have only been a police officer, but I understand some of the occupational stresses and traumas that we share..." then there would have been no harm done.

Either way... IMHO: A person who has never served as a military member should not hold the position of Minister of Veterans Affairs. Ever.


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## brihard

recceguy said:
			
		

> Did you even read the article??



It is not apparent that he did...


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## The Bread Guy

recceguy said:
			
		

> ARMY_101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Wallace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good read.  Perhaps the Minister should read it.
> 
> From the Huffington Post; Do You Know What Defines a Veteran? It's Not Just Combat, by Jeff Rose-Martland
> 
> 
> 
> I can't find "combat" anywhere in the definition of "veteran." Does that mean sailors and pilots aren't veterans because they aren't _in combat?_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you even read the article??
Click to expand...

Or even the *title*?



			
				PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> IMHO: A person who has never served as a military member should not hold the position of Minister of Veterans Affairs. Ever.


How many doctors/nurses have been health minister?  I'm OK with someone who can understand the issues and have a spine to do what's right when required (knowing it's always within the limits of party discipline and policy), than a vet who may not be all that swift.


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## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I can't find "combat" anywhere in the definition of "veteran." Does that mean sailors and pilots aren't veterans because they aren't _in combat?_
> 
> Did you even read the article??
> 
> Or even the *title*?
> How many doctors/nurses have been health minister?  I'm OK with someone who can understand the issues and have a spine to do what's right when required (knowing it's always within the limits of party discipline and policy), than a vet who may not be all that swift.



Agreed. Having served in uniform does not necessarily mean one is better qualified to oversee a government department. And it certainly doesn't preclude one from print a partisan hack in cabinet. I'll take an honest broker who trusts their staff.


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## JorgSlice

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> How many doctors/nurses have been health minister?  I'm OK with someone who can understand the issues and have a spine to do what's right when required (knowing it's always within the limits of party discipline and policy), than a vet who may not be all that swift.



Well on that note, I do agree.


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## George Wallace

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> I can't find "combat" anywhere in the definition of "veteran." Does that mean sailors and pilots aren't veterans because they aren't _in combat?_



 :

Your credibility is really lacking now.


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## Good2Golf

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> I can't find "combat" anywhere in the definition of "veteran." Does that mean sailors and pilots aren't veterans because they aren't _in combat?_



...except for sailors who may, for instance, have been part off a CIMIC/OMLT or aircrew (not just pilots) shot down in combat (such as the crew of CH147202 in AFG).

Perhaps best to stop while behind, vice letting yourself prove you are even further behind than it may initially appear to many?  Please?

G2G


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## ARMY_101

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> A person who has never served as a military member should not hold the position of Minister of Veterans Affairs. Ever.



Ministers aren't meant to be subject-matter experts like the bureaucracy, they're meant to be policy and political experts who can navigate the politics required to effect changes in their department.  VAC/DND ministers don't need to be veterans, Health Minister doesn't need to be a doctor, Fisheries and Oceans and Environment Ministers don't need to be biologists, etc. It's not their role (nor should it be, if they're elected as representatives of the Commons).


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## Journeyman

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> I can't find "combat" anywhere in the definition of "veteran." Does that mean sailors and pilots aren't veterans because they aren't _in combat?_


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## Scott

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Ministers aren't meant to be subject-matter experts like the bureaucracy, they're meant to be policy and political experts who can navigate the politics required to effect changes in their department.  VAC/DND ministers don't need to be veterans, Health Minister doesn't need to be a doctor, Fisheries and Oceans and Environment Ministers don't need to be biologists, etc. It's not their role (nor should it be, if they're elected as representatives of the Commons).



Stop posting.


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## Danjanou

:goodpost:


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## Journeyman

Scott said:
			
		

> Stop posting.


MilPoints inbound   :nod:


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## The Bread Guy

In other news, some high visibility for the Minister coming Friday night ....


> The Honourable Julian Fantino, Minister of Veterans Affairs, will march with Veterans, men and women in uniform and cadets in the BC Lions Salute to Veterans and Military Valour half-time show.
> 
> Location:
> BC Place
> 777 Pacific Boulevard
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> Date:
> Friday, November 1, 2013
> Time:
> 7:00 p.m. ....


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## Pusser

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> "Newly-minted Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino hasn't exactly been winning friends recently. Nor his influence on veterans been inspirational, except in the way that an emetic inspires. It appears the Honourable Minister is in over his head with his portfolio... or perhaps gagging on it... as mere months after his appointment -- and before he has even taken his seat -- veterans are demanding his resignation. Fantino has been handling the issues at Veterans Affairs with all the grace of a newborn moose on ice skates."
> 
> more of the article:  http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jeff-rosemartland/canada-veterans-affairs_b_4103494.html



I have some issues with the HP article.  Although I agree that we all write a "blank cheque" to the nation, we cannot be "ordered to die."  I see that phrase used frequently and it just plain wrong.  Yes, we can be ordered into harm's way and yes, the consequences of that order may in fact lead to our deaths and anyone contemplating a military career needs to understand and accept that.  However, every order is made with a goal in mind and that goal is never the death, no matter how inevitable, of the person or persons carrying it out.   The HP example of a leader ordering someone to throw themselves on a greande is too ridiculously Hollywood to be taken seriously.


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## Teager

This from the VAC Minister

"As I explained to 25 Veterans stakeholders a few weeks ago, the plaintiffs in the current court proceedings argue that the promises of past governments are binding on present and future governments. While this may sound reasonable, their argument could have a far broader impact than perhaps intended. If accepted, this principle could undermine democratic accountability, as parliamentarians of the future could be prevented from changing important legislation. Hence this is not about the issues raised by the plaintiffs, but about unintended consequences to the very functioning of our parliamentary democracy. The place to discuss whether laws meet the needs of Veterans is before a Parliamentary committee whose sole purpose is to hear and represent their interests. That is why I support a comprehensive review of the Enhanced New Veterans Charter, as per the recommendation of the Veterans Ombudsman and various stakeholder groups.

I believe Veterans are remarkable individuals who have made important contributions to Canada. They have stood up in the face of tyranny, and stood firm in the defence of Canada. My reference to my four decades as a law enforcement officer was simply to note that I am no stranger to placing my life on the line. I understand the concerns of the Veterans community, and our Government will continue to do what is right by them."

More at link http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/the-honourable-julian-fantino/veterans-affairs-canada_b_4213257.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-politics


----------



## The Bread Guy

Teager said:
			
		

> .... The place to discuss whether laws meet the needs of Veterans is before a Parliamentary committee whose sole purpose is to hear and represent their interests ....


The *sole* purpose of a Parliamentary Committee is to represent the interests of stakeholders?  I suppose that depends on the committee, and what it's allowed to do - highlights mine from what the Parliamentary web page says about committees:


> .... Committee work provides detailed information to parliamentarians on issues of concern to the electorate and often provokes important public debate. In addition, because committees interact directly with the public, they provide an immediate and visible conduit between elected representatives and Canadians.
> 
> *Committees are extensions of the House, created by either standing or special orders, and are limited in their powers by the authority delegated to them* ....


----------



## jollyjacktar

Telling cartoon...

http://thechronicleherald.ca/editorial-cartoon/2013-11-11-editorial-cartoon


----------



## Nemo888

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-in-ottawa-to-fight-service-cuts-upset-over-fantino-meeting-1.2513837

Waiting them to death is the new policy.

Veterans in Ottawa to fight service cuts upset over Fantino meeting


Veterans who were in Ottawa to lobby against the closing of their regional offices left a brief, emotional meeting Tuesday with Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino visibly frustrated and saying they were disrespected.

The federal government has already closed one office in Prince George, B.C., and plans to close eight more on Jan. 31.

In a news conference, a group of veterans said their Tuesday meeting did not go well. Video from the meeting shows Fantino and veterans trading testy exchanges.

Ron Clarke, a 36-year veteran of the Forces, said the meeting was "unbelievable, unacceptable and shameful. The way we were treated is just not kosher." He demanded that Fantino resign and said he would campaign "across Canada" against the Conservatives during the next election.

Roy Lamore, a Second World War veteran from Thunder Bay, Ont., called it a "damn disgrace" that Fantino sent three Conservative MPs —  Parm Gill, Erin O’Toole, and Laurie Hawn — to argue for the closures.

"There are a few things [Fantino] should be told," Lamore said. "Taught manners is number 1, number 2 to respect the veterans, and number 3, it's time that he better wake up and give us a break on these things."

Fantino released a statement saying that he and the veterans had a 'candid conversation' during a 'roundtable' and that meeting with veterans is one of the most important parts of his job.

"I am always willing to hear from veterans face-to-face on any issue," the release said.

Evan Solomon, host of CBC's Power & Politics, said the confrontation will be a public relations problem for a Conservative government that has built its brand on veterans and the military.

"That press conference could be the beginning of a much more significant debate about how vets have been treated," he said.
Volunteer warns of delays

Alban LeClair said during an earlier new conference Tuesday that he works with veterans in Prince Edward Island as a Royal Canadian Legion service volunteer.

    Veteran John Tescione with PTSD fights for retroactive benefits

"I can't help veterans without assistance of Veterans Affairs," he said.
Veterans protest service office closures

Veterans and PSAC members make their way to hold a news conference on Parliament Hill Tuesday, where they called on the government to reconsider its decision to close Veterans Affairs district offices in nine communities. (Sean Kilpatrick/Canadian Press)

"This government keeps saying it's enhancing services for veterans. It says these closures will not affect services. Well, I can tell you now, that before they started shutting down Charlottetown district office, a veteran could get a home visit within a couple of days. Now it takes up to six weeks to contact the veteran. And six weeks is a long time for a 93-year-old veteran, and even young veterans suffering with PTSD," he said, referring to post-traumatic stress disorder.

One veteran teared up as he described what friends were going through as they faced the office closures.

Offices are set to close in:

    Corner Brook, N.L.
    Charlottetown.
    Sydney, N.S.
    Thunder Bay, Ont.
    Windsor, Ont.
    Brandon, Man.
    Saskatoon.
    Kelowna, B.C.

Meeting with Fantino 

Fantino addressed the proposed closures last fall in front of the House veterans affairs committee.

"Veterans Affairs offices in nine locations across Canada have seen demand drop, and so yes, they are being closed," he said.

"Some of these offices have seen demand drop to fewer than seven visits on average per day, with many of these visits for dropping off paperwork. But where veterans need them most, our government has maintained 26 Veterans Affairs Canada service centres, and has established and supports 24 integrated personnel support centres and 17 operational stress injury clinics.

"But this is again only part of the story. Now, in locations where Veterans Affairs has never operated before, veterans and their families can visit one of 600 Service Canada sites to get the information they need."

A spokesman for Fantino said Veterans Affairs is placing staff at the Service Canada Centre closest to offices that are closing. Service Canada Centres are government offices that offer a number of programs in one location.

"This position will be there for as long as necessary in order to support veterans in the communities where they live," Fantino said in a Dec. 13 statement.

The Public Service Alliance of Canada organized Tuesday's press conference. 
'Even slower'

The government said services will still be available online.

But the website isn't easy to navigate, said Bruce Moncur, a 29-year-old who served in Afghanistan.

Moncur said he banks and does other transactions online, but it took him a whole afternoon to figure out the Veterans Affairs site.

Moncur described starting an account on the site, then waiting a day for it to be activated, and waiting another week to get the paperwork he requested.

"Something that I could have gone to the office for, that would have taken 10 minutes to get, ended up taking me a week. And that's indicative too of what's happening with these closures is that the service is going to [be] even slower. I never thought it would be possible, but it is," he said.

For those who still want to meet with a case worker, the closures could mean travelling for hours to get to the nearest office.

In question period, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said service will actually increase because it will be available at 600 Service Canada centres.

New Democrat Leader Tom Mulcair suggested that isn't how the veterans see it.

"No, [the veterans are] not all here in Ottawa this week to say thanks," Mulcair responded.

"When our forces are facing a crisis of eight military suicides in two months, there's never been a more important time ... to maintain those services," Mulcair said.

Michelle Bradley, who has worked for Veterans Affairs since 2001, said the government has forgotten the sacrifices veterans have made for Canada.

Bradley is also the national vice-president of the Union of Veterans Affairs Employees for the Atlantic region.

"We've been forced to put aside our caring as we watch all of our veterans wait longer to get the support they need and they deserve," she said.


----------



## Jed

It appears that Mr. Fantino has managed to enrage a significant number of well respected Veterans in front of national TV. It does not bode well for proper and respectful assistance to many of our most deserving members of our Nation.

My trust for a Mr. Fantino led Dept. of Veteran's Affairs is at an all time low.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

One only has to look at his history as Police Chief in York, London and Toronto as well as his time as Commissioner of the OPP to see what kind of a pompous and arrogant fool he is.


----------



## dapaterson

recceguy said:
			
		

> One only has to look at his history as Police Chief in York, London and Toronto as well as his time as Commissioner of the OPP to see what kind of a pompous and arrogant fool he is.


 You're saying he is Senate material?


----------



## Remius

Well this has turned into a PR nightmare.  Fantino has now proven he can't handle a large porfolio especially one that's relatively sensitive.  How long before he gets quietly replaced?


----------



## Nemo888

Fantino has a reputation for ramming through very unpopular budget cuts regardless of consequences. Perhaps that is why he was given the portfolio in the first place. He may be out there to absorb the heat. If he can keep his job after this that is most likely.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/28/veterans-group-calls-julian-fantinos-resignation-or-firing-after-tory-minister-fails-to-meet-over-closures/

Veterans group calls for Julian Fantino’s ‘resignation or firing’ after Tory minister fails to meet over closures

OTTAWA — Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino appeared to add insult to injury late Tuesday in firmly rejecting the pleas of ex-soldiers to halt the impending closure of eight of the department’s regional offices.

A scheduled meeting with a delegation of veterans, at least one from the Second World War, was abruptly cancelled and the group met with senior Conservatives, including MP Laurie Hawn and the minister’s chief of staff.

Just before veterans were set to hold a late evening news conference, Fantino met with them in a basement office on Parliament Hill to reinforce the message that the centres would close on schedule.

“The decision has been made,” Fantino said before leaving for another meeting. “We have found alternate accommodations that we feel will adequately address veterans and their needs.”

Centres — in Kelowna, B.C., Saskatoon, Brandon, Man., Thunder Bay, Ont., Windsor, Ont., Sydney, N.S., Charlottetown and Corner Brook, N.L. — are slated to shut down Friday as part of a move to more online and remote services. A ninth office has already closed in Prince George, B.C.

One veteran, Ron Clarke, said the minister’s brusk and disrespectful treatment has succeeded in alienating him from a core Conservative constituency, and he urged ex-soldiers to take out their frustration at the ballot box in 2015 after the “unbelievable, unacceptable and shameful meeting.”

“I would like to call for Mr. Fantino’s resignation — or firing,” Clarke said. “Mr. Harper and his Conservatives had best be prepared for the next election. There are two (other) parties who said they’d open our offices, and (soldiers) might want to think about voting for them, but not the Conservatives.”

Seven veterans, including Roy Lamore whose service dates back to the 1940s, says he and others feel betrayed by a government that promised to take care of them and younger soldiers.

“These closures will put veterans at risk,” Lamore, a resident of Thunder Bay, told a Parliament Hill news conference. “I hope the government is listening. Why do we, as veterans, have to beg?”

But earlier in the day during question period in the House of Commons, the prime minister brushed aside the criticism and noted that veterans can still get everything they need from the less specialized 584 Service Canada offices coast-to-coast.

With the declining veterans population, Stephen Harper suggested, the Second War World-era structure had out lived its purpose.

“There are a small number of service centres that are being closed that frankly service very few people, had very few visits,” Harper told the House of Commons.

“That’s being replaced with 600 service centres across the country, and in an increased number of cases employees will actually go and meet veterans instead of the other way around.”

Harper also pointed to increased investments the Conservatives have made under the New Veterans Charter. (5 billion on paper that resulted in 1.3 million in expenditures last year when I checked the budget. Perhaps 4.99 billlion in padding to balance the budget in 2015)

NDP Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair linked the imminent cuts to the increasing number of soldiers and ex-soldiers who’ve taken their lives since the fall.

“When our forces are facing a crisis of eight military suicides in two months, there’s never been a more important time to maintain those services,” Mulcair said.

Former corporal Bruce Moncur, who was wounded in Afghanistan in 2006, says the online system has increased frustration even among his Internet-savvy friends seeking benefits and treatment.

Filling out forms and navigating the department’s bureaucratic maze has taken him up to a week, he said, when just one office visit would have sorted it out in a morning.

Moncur, who suffered a shrapnel wound to the head, says he believes it’s a deliberate strategy to reduce use of services.

“When you keep getting the door slammed in your face, you just end up giving up,” he said. “It’s the no-go policy. If you’re told ’No’ enough times, you’ll go away.”

Following the meeting, Moncur pleaded with veterans to not be discouraged and file for the benefits to which they are entitled.

The Public Service Alliance of Canada, which represents Veterans Affairs staff, has been running a high-profile campaign against the closures. One of the frontline workers, Michelle Bradley, said she feels defeated and ashamed because veterans will no longer get the personal service they deserve.

The union says the specialized knowledge of veterans staff cannot be replicated at Service Canada centres, where the public applies for employment insurance and even social insurance numbers.

The inability to access services, particularly mental health, could have dire consequences, other veterans warned.
One ex-soldier at the news conference soberly recounted the struggle of a comrade, who took his own life years after being wounded in Cyprus.

The Harper government plans a series of commemorations this year to mark the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings in France, as well as the centennial of the start of the First World War.

“It’s really convenient to show yourself in such a commemorative way, except services are required,” said Moncur. “I think the money would be better spent to help veterans that need the help.”


----------



## Monsoon

recceguy said:
			
		

> One only has to look at his history as Police Chief in York, London and Toronto as well as his time as Commissioner of the OPP to see what kind of a pompous and arrogant fool he is.


Though from the video footage of the "meeting" it's pretty clear he's not the only one in that room that fits your description. For my part, I'm ashamed to have my interests represented by these self-appointed negotiators.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Though from the video footage of the "meeting" it's pretty clear he's not the only one in that room that fits your description. For my part, I'm ashamed to have my interests represented by these self-appointed negotiators.



I agree with you on that.  I've always thought that Mr. Fantino was a stooge, but that was embarrassing.  From my impression of that ambush 'meeting', none of those in the room represent anything but "me, me, me".


----------



## The Bread Guy

And the "official" explanation, via CBC?


> Minister Julian Fantino offers personal apology for being late to meeting with veterans yesterday, blames long cabinet meeting



And a bit more from Reuters:


> "I remain deeply committed to meeting with them and listening to the issues that matter to them and their families," says Fantino


----------



## Journeyman

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> NDP Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair linked the imminent cuts to the increasing number of soldiers and ex-soldiers who’ve taken their lives since the fall.


Implying that because the Centres would be closed at the end of January these people pre-emptively killed themselves goes beyond shameful politics but straight to downright stupid.

Your village called Tom, they want you to come home.   :not-again:


----------



## George Wallace

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Your village called Tom, they want you to come home.   :not-again:



Did they even notice that he was missing?


----------



## Journeyman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Did they even notice that he was missing?


When someone said "where is that idiot?"


----------



## bridges

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Implying that because the Centres would be closed at the end of January these people pre-emptively killed themselves goes beyond shameful politics but straight to downright stupid.
> 
> Your village called Tom, they want you to come home.   :not-again:



In the quote I read, in both the National Post and CBC, he implied nothing of the kind.  The actual quote was:  “When our forces are facing a crisis of eight military suicides in two months, there’s never been a more important time to maintain those services.”    This seems to be linking the past suicides to a need, in the future, to keep those centres open, in order to help others who might be in trouble.   A subtle but important distinction.


----------



## Journeyman

bridges said:
			
		

> A subtle but important distinction.


Agreed that it's a significant distinction, but not remotely subtle; however my comment here was based on what was published here.


----------



## ModlrMike

Self appointed representatives backed up by PSAC and the NDP. Forgive me if I don't believe for one moment that there wasn't a partisan political goal in all of this.


----------



## Rifleman62

The small office in Kelowna is to be closed. I believe it was more of a satellite office of the Penticton office, one hour drive south of Kelowna.

My personal dealings with the Kelowna office were not satisfactory at all. The guy I spoke with, and his supervisor who I complained to about him, were condescending, uninterested and the negative, stereotyped public servant. 

No loss here.

Penticton office is very good.


----------



## Nemo888

Our needs are getting hijacked by political partisanship. I can't disagree that the current government is screwing us over like every recent government of any party. If we don't get our own action plan and figure out what we want we will be used by all parties and be tainted in the process. That road will get none of our concerns looked after as partisans want strife and actively dislike actual solutions.

We need a few things very badly;
1. The SISIP lawsuit needs to be settled. The government lost, is clearly in the wrong and will have to pay once they lose all the appeals. Being honourable in this case would reestablish some goodwill and repair the shattered trust. 

2. Real education benefits that actually get approved and give real job opportunities. i.e. Post secondary degrees.

3. Failing that make Priority Hiring more than a pretty pamphlet.

4. All vets need to be treated the same. Having this unfair two tiered system for vets pre and post 2005 is wrong. We are all vets and we need to stick together. The Legion should finally get on board with this. The 7 years of deafening silence should come to an end now that Fantino is coming for their benefits as well. The new messaging is the old vets are almost gone and they are a waste of money. We should suggest they get on board now, but they need to speak up for our issues too.

These are just preliminary ideas, but hopefully we can come up with something better than partisans throwing us under the bus. If we don't come up with something and and it become an election issue where we don't control the messaging we will be screwed over for a decade.


----------



## Teager

We do have our own action plan. IMO we have someone representing us and has the majority of our concerns laid out with solutions. That would be the Ombudsman. The problem lies in getting the government to act on the Ombudsmans recommendations. Vets need to take his points and press that as the issue.


----------



## Nemo888

Every time an ombudsman speaks up in the slightest he gets fired. If we went that route he would not be allowed to speak to the media. We need to take control of our message since it seems others are trying to hijack it.

What are the specific ombudsman recommendations we should be addressing?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Our "representatives" sounded like a bunch of cry babies.  Why can't we ever find a guy with half a brain to speak on behalf of veterans.  

The real problems we have, which some of you alluded to, get lost in the weeds when we have a couple of loud mouthed union rep's bitching about closing an office in Penticton.  Not to mention that not one of these guys looked under the age of 65 (Ok maybe one guy with the SWASM looked 55) which tells me they don't represent the modern veteran at all.


----------



## Nemo888

Old vets didn't seem to care when we were enduring the New Veterans Charter. Perhaps now would be a good time to unite as they are on the chopping block now. Old and new vets together at a media event being respectful, disciplined and on message would be impossible to ignore.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Not to mention that not one of these guys looked under the age of 65 (Ok maybe one guy with the SWASM looked 55) which tells me they don't represent the modern veteran at all.



I retired last year at age 60 I have deployments to Bosnia and Afghanistan plus 3 1\2 years in the early 70's in Germany and postings and deployments to all four coasts of North America. 

However, according to you, I don't represent nor am I a modern veteran?

Why put an age on it at all? Pretty biased right out of the gate if you ask me.


----------



## Jed

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Old vets didn't seem to care when we were enduring the New Veterans Charter. Perhaps now would be a good time to unite as they are on the chopping block now.[size=10pt] Old and new vets together at a media event being respectful, disciplined and on message would be impossible to ignore.
> [/size]



Spot on. Our best means of accomplishing this is for the new Vets to sign on with the RCL and to change that organization's attitudes from within. Like all human endeavours if we can stop the dick measuring from WWII vets, Korea Vets, Afghan Vets, Peacekeepers, REMFs, Combat Arms and concentrate on what is important, we will all be further ahead.


----------



## OldSolduer

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Our "representatives" sounded like a bunch of cry babies.  Why can't we ever find a guy with half a brain to speak on behalf....



Because I haven't retired yet, and you are way too young to consider releasing to pursue this.


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> I retired last year at age 60 I have deployments to Bosnia and Afghanistan plus 3 1\2 years in the early 70's in Germany and postings and deployments to all four coasts of North America.
> 
> However, according to you, I don't represent nor am I a modern veteran?
> 
> Why put an age on it at all? Pretty biased right out of the gate if you ask me.



Nor does it include all those 20 somethings who are driving around with Veterans' Plates on their cars.


----------



## dapaterson

Tabitha Southey has a solution



> The question I imagine many Canadians have for Julian Fantino this week is, “Who do you think you are?” In fairness, we should be patient while waiting for an answer.
> 
> If Mr. Fantino responds, “I’m Minister of State for Seniors. No, hold on, I’m the Associate Minister of National Defence. Wait a sec, I got this one, I’m the Minister for International Cooperation” before coming around to “I’m the Minister of Veterans Affairs,” it’s understandable.
> 
> Cabinet ministers do get shuffled, of course, but the sense with Mr. “A Wandering Minister I” Fantino isn’t that he was such a roaring success in one department that his talents and diplomatic skills were demanded elsewhere and tears would just have to be dried.
> 
> The constant redeployment of Mr. Fantino suggests his fellow Conservatives like the concept of Julian Fantino (his policing background boosts their tough-on-crime brand) and yet have very little idea of what to do with the reality of Julian Fantino.
> 
> ...
> 
> The veterans have suggested Mr. Fantino should be fired. History suggests Mr. Harper is more likely, fresh options close to exhausted, to create a special portfolio for him. The Associate Minister of National Defence position once held by Mr. Fantino was, after all, vacant from 2006 to 2011. It’s thought it was dusted off to make Mr. Fantino present, like a mascot at a football game, without actually bestowing much independent authority upon him.
> 
> Let’s hope if a new post must be manufactured, it’s one well suited to Mr. Fantino’s demonstrated skills: Minister in Charge of Pissing Off Strong-willed People With A Lot of Public Goodwill, for example.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/columnists/maybe-the-veterans-affairs-minister-should-actually-listen-to-vets/article16629349/


----------



## Container

I'm not entirely sure where the Fantino brand carries weight. His treatment of his subordinates was infuriating, his book was entirely vanilla, and his command, everywhere, has been nonstop head butting.

Who considers him tough on crime or a capable leader or politician....personal opinion of course


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Container said:
			
		

> I'm not entirely sure where the Fantino brand carries weight. His treatment of his subordinates was infuriating, his book was entirely vanilla, and his command, everywhere, has been nonstop head butting.
> 
> Who considers him tough on crime or a capable leader or politician....personal opinion of course



Container, that is a mystery no one seems to know.  I know of no one in law enforcement who has ever said a good thing about him.....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The only people Fantino ever helped, for political purposes, were the Indians at Caledonia. He got that wrong too.

The one time in his life he was called on to do the right thing and he failed miserably.


----------



## a_majoor

And now another twist and turn to the story. Pretty soon it will be like a Giant slalom race:

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/30/veterans-duped-by-the-union-in-showdown-julian-fantino-says



> Veterans 'duped' by the union in showdown, Julian Fantino says
> 445
> 
> 
> joe-warmington
> By Joe Warmington	,Toronto Sun
> First posted:  Friday, January 31, 2014 01:00 AM EST  | Updated:  Friday, January 31, 2014 01:06 AM EST
> 
> 
> Julian Fantino Minister of Veterans Affairs Julian Fantino speaks during question period on Parliament Hill in Ottawa January 29, 2014. (REUTERS/Blair Gable)
> 
> 
> Article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Change text size for the story
> Print this story
> 
> Report an error
> 
> 
> TORONTO - Turns out the public rage directed toward Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino was paid for by the union whose jobs are being cut.
> 
> The veterans' rage toward Fantino was put on display for the whole country to see. What wasn't told was their trip to Ottawa was paid for by the Public Service Alliance of Canada.
> 
> The whole show was orchestrated.
> 
> "The veterans were used by the union," Fantino said Thursday in his first interview since Tuesday's incident. "They were duped."
> 
> Seven veterans and one co-ordinator were flown in and put up in a hotel to rail against the Government of Canada's decision to close eight veterans affairs offices in favour of having the veterans receive help at Service Canada locations.
> 
> "They did have their expenses paid for," confirmed a PSAC spokesman named Carrie, who said she could not provide her last name. "But they are all on fixed incomes."
> 
> She strongly pushed the point Fantino "did not show up at a meeting he set up" and the veterans were "furious."
> 
> Several veterans were quoted saying they felt "disrespected" by the minister after he responded to a veteran who was pointing his finger at him by saying, "This finger-pointing stuff doesn't really work very well with me."
> 
> Moments later, after trying to explain the government's position, Fantino was shouted down by a Second World War veteran who said "hogwash," to which Fantino walked away. All hell broke loose, including veteran Paul Davis telling an already organized news conference that Fantino "should not be in office and I'd like to see him resign."
> 
> The minister apologized in the House of Commons.
> 
> It does not seem to be enough for the union and some media -- with old scores to settle -- who are calling for Fantino's head.
> 
> The former Toronto Police chief and OPP commissioner's not-suffering-fools-gladly personality is legendary but suggestions he would purposely dishonour those who served in uniform is preposterous and feeling like a smear campaign.
> 
> "I don't know of anybody who cares more for veterans, soldiers and police," OPP Commissioner Chris Lewis said.
> 
> He is right. No one I know fights harder for them.
> 
> Fantino said he won't be resigning.
> 
> "We remain committed to support veterans and their families and it is unfortunate this was side-tracked," he said. "I am not going to be deterred by it. The government is working hard to deliver services to veterans and there is more to do."
> 
> He said he's "reached out" to those same veterans to meet -- without union activism intervention.
> 
> He also said he doesn't feel the incident was covered in an honest way.
> 
> "I wasn't going to just play dead," he said of when a veteran was pointing a finger at him. "I have great respect for him and all of them. But I also know they arrived angry, were angry during and left angry. They were all jacked up."
> 
> And it was PSAC, he said, who set and orchestrated this tone.
> 
> "They manipulated them," he said. "It was taking advantage of people who have served the country and in some cases are getting older. It's scurrilous."
> 
> Suggestions that Fantino and his staff were showing "contempt" he called "untrue" and nothing but an attempt at scoring political points.
> 
> "We have thousands of relationships with veterans that are positive," he said.
> 
> In fact, Fantino said, the "irony was I was in a cabinet meeting with a dozen senior ministers talking about veterans benefits. That's why I was late and I sent people over to invite them out for dinner."
> 
> Fantino said, "They refused, stormed out, but were later seen having dinner at a restaurant called Spin together with the union. When I did finally catch up to them, the first thing I did was apologize to them for being late, tried to explain where I was and what I was doing. At this point I was as much as called a liar."
> 
> The veterans affairs minister added, "Earlier in the day, the union leaders were also overheard briefing the vets on their strategy and questions and lines they were to use."
> 
> Two union spokesmen denied this, saying the union was not in anyway involved in influencing the veterans.
> 
> Other then, of course, paying for them to be there.
> 
> "It was a set-up," Fantino said. "The union exploited these folks and that to me is reprehensible."
> 
> So it turns out there is more than one side to this story, and now it has been reported.


----------



## PuckChaser

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.


----------



## ModlrMike

I think I may have hinted as much several pages back.


----------



## Rifleman62

Not surprised. Like I posed, the Kelowna VAC office was a waste of rations.


----------



## George Wallace

A rather neutral commentary in the Windsor Star, that is being claimed as biased by some who partook in the protest or are in support of the protests:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK



> Vander Doelen: Our Vets Manipulated
> 
> Chris Vander Doelen
> Jan 31, 2014 - 6:02 PM EST
> Last Updated: Jan 31, 2014 - 6:16 PM EST
> 
> Some strange political theatre took place on University Avenue on Friday during a protest over the closure of Windsor’s former Veteran’s Affairs Canada office.
> 
> Local NDP politicians were joined by about three dozen elderly veterans in full uniform, who in turn were surrounded by a crew of U.S. Vietnam vets in black leather biker gear and a bunch of people wearing an array of union logos.
> 
> Unifor shirts, Local 444 hats, PSAC jackets. NDP MP Brian Masse, NDP MPP Percy Hatfield, NDP Coun. Ron Jones, Ken Lewenza Sr. on the sidelines. Seeing any trend yet?
> 
> The hour-long protest of about 90 people boiled down to this: down with the Conservative government in Ottawa, and down with Essex Tory MP Jeff Watson. It wasn’t a protest so much as it was an early NDP election rally for 2015.
> 
> Too bad the vets allowed themselves to be used as political props by people who do not share their ideology. Nor do they share the long-term interests of soldiers or the Armed Forces.
> 
> What a weird sight it was, seeing so much of Windsor’s anti-war labour movement linked arm-in-arm with vets in all their medal finery.
> 
> Don’t be confused about what the VAC offices issue is about: it’s just a union thing, an ideological battle between a centre-right government trying to save money by rationalizing staff, and a very militant union (PSAC) that wants to preserve as many dues-paying positions as it can.
> 
> No veterans are losing any services due to the Friday closure of eight VAC offices across Canada. (One also closed last year). And given the extensive bumping rights of federal employees, I’m told it is highly unlikely that any of the PSAC staff will find themselves unemployed by the closures.
> 
> The only person who will lose anything tangible from the VAC office closure is the lone, elderly Commissionaire posted at the front door for security. A vet himself, he was the only one in the building losing his job, he told me a few months ago.
> 
> But PSAC will lose dozens of union positions and members coast-to-coast as the VAC offices close and retiring members aren’t replaced with new hires.
> 
> Altogether, the Stephen Harper government intends to scrub tens of thousands of jobs from the federal civil service this way to balance the books. Nineteen thousand are already gone.
> 
> It doesn’t matter that most of the jobs will be eliminated through painless attrition. PSAC doesn’t like it. And they’re clearly much more organized and effective than this government is when it comes to getting that message to voters.
> 
> The federal government, they claimed Friday, is “turning its back” on veterans by withdrawing badly needed mental health services to damaged veterans driven to suicide by an uncaring government.
> 
> “They’re bullies … kicking sand in their faces,” in the spittle-flecked, voice-cracking oratory of former CBC union leader Hatfield.
> 
> Except that it’s not true. None of offices provide any health care, or any kind of service other than advice. The six people in the Windsor office mostly just answered phone calls – about 16 per day last year – and advised veterans how to go about accessing benefits.
> 
> Very few veterans physically visited the University VAC office. Which is why they’re closing it: heating and maintaining that huge, mostly empty building wastes about $1 million per year – for something that was done almost entirely by phone anyway.
> 
> Only 23 veterans in Windsor and Essex County have active case files that require managing by federal workers. The vast majority of the 2,600 veterans and retired RCMP officers who live in Windsor-Essex don’t even need any of the services offered by the VAC office.
> 
> Ninety per cent of the 2,600 don’t need hearing aids, don’t need psychiatric care for PTSD, don’t collect pensions yet, don’t need a nursing home and don’t need anyone to shovel their walks or cut their lawns in summer. Those are most of the services the VAC offices arranged, delivered by others.
> 
> As of Monday, the 23 special cases will be advised by phone from London, Ont. And as of Monday, the $1 million per year can be put to something more useful – like paying for veterans’ benefits. Or given back to taxpayers – which is better than wasting it.
> 
> And if one or two vets per week still insist on walking into an office for their service, they can visit the full-time VAC staffer to be posted in the Service Canada office at 400 City Hall Square.
> 
> And that’s it. The whole coast-to-coast protest over the veterans’ affairs offices is no different than the fight Windsor taxpayers had with CUPE over cutting city staff. Just bigger.
> 
> Nothing changes for veterans, who will still get the same pensions and benefits and other perks they are entitled to from a populace grateful for their service.
> 
> This PSAC war against the spending cuts of a Conservative government, however, is just beginning.
> 
> cvanderdoelen@windsorstar.com 519-255-6852 Follow me on Twitter @winstarvander



Now one has to remember, the Conservative member can't be on both sides of the fence.  

Looking at these comments and looking past the politics being shown by the union and opposition parties, we can see some facts that justify the closing of such offices in the way of cutting costs.  One office was closed last year with no fanfare.  Now eight more are being closed as cost cutting measures, but no real loss in services, and the anti-government and union representatives are out in force capitalizind on this to expand their agendas.


----------



## Nemo888

This is a problem. We are not controlling the message on some very serious issues. We have been left out in the cold since 2005 and if we get caught in this tug of war both sides will use us for headlines then throw us away.

As we got into before the thread got derailed the NVC was not a mistake. I was there in 2005 when it was being drafted. The bean counters said vets cost too much. That the cost of inured soldiers would be more than the cost of prosecuting the war. So they slashed the benefits on future veterans while leaving the older vets alone. This way at the introduction no vets would come forward and only slowly as new ones accumulated would how much they slashed become apparent.  The slogan "Living Charter" was invented as a very smart public relations campaign to prevent the eventual realization that they cut the majority of the benefits. The Legion got on board because they kept all their benefits on the old system. They created two tiers of vets. Pre2005 vets who got cash and post 2005 vets who got promises and by my calculation a lump sum of 6.7 years on the old system.


 The current government has had the opportunity to fix this travesty since 2006. They could have fixed the NVC anytime in the last 7 years. The SISIP lawsuit which they lost on both legal and moral grounds is the indicator of their actual views on  this issue. They are appealing and stalling the payouts to deserving disabled veterans for as long as legally possible at great public expense. The misinformation campaign has continued, probably orchestrated by the same bureaucrats that found us so undeserving in 2005. Another good example is the 5 billion promised in increased benefits. If you look up the budget for the last fiscal year the outlay in benefits only increased by 1.3 million dollars. Priority Hiring is another great promise on paper. You are a priority right after the 20,000 public service workers being laid off. The ombudsman is a useless partisan office and other than Strogan has merely prevented change by being a _psychological safety valve. _

Vets, (and I mean that primarily in a legal sense as those who gave the government unlimited liability and are not legally allowed to sue or go to WSIB for injuries and need to use VAC resources. My apologies if this was unclear before.)  are not treated equally.  I asked a lawyer who often sues the city and he said VAC payouts were less than one tenth what he gets for accident claimants. This multitiered system is not fair.

So the bigger problem right now is all political parties are using us to make headlines. Fantino was tasked with vets to make cuts and take heat. He is succeeding and we are losing. We need to come up with a coherent list of grievances or we will be thrown under the bus again.


----------



## George Wallace

Here is a very informative presentation to the House, by MP for Durham, a former member of the CF, Erin O'Toole:

http://erinotoolemp.ca/quick-links/our-veterans/


----------



## ModlrMike

So if I understand him correctly the 8 "closed" offices are to be bundled with Service Canada, which is in most cases in the same building. In addition, 600 new positions are to be opened at SC across the country.

Or did I miss something.


----------



## PuckChaser

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> So if I understand him correctly the 8 "closed" offices are to be bundled with Service Canada, which is in most cases in the same building. In addition, 600 new positions are to be opened at SC across the country.
> 
> Or did I miss something.



Listening to the video now, but the press releases stated a full-time VAC case worker was to go to Service Canada locations near were each of the VAC offices were closed. Haven't heard of an increase in VAC employees at Service Canada.


----------



## armyvern

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> So if I understand him correctly the 8 "closed" offices are to be bundled with Service Canada, which is in most cases in the same building. In addition, 600 new positions are to be opened at SC across the country.
> 
> Or did I miss something.



8 Offices are closing and the Service Canada locations at those places will take over the case-work for the veterans located there.  600 "new" posns are actually 600 temporary posns who will be placed in each Service Canada venue in order to train the current Service Canada workers on what is required; they will then be out of jobs post training the Service Canada workers.  Service Canada workers are also experiencing seperate staff reductions.  So, the work load is going UP at Service Canada locations (gaining the Vet files), but their current staff is going down, but they are gaining 600 temp workers just to train the ones who _will_ have their jobs left on how to handle VAC files.

I'm wondering how many Privacy Act breaches we will see now with Vet files given that Service Canada centres will have reduced staffing levels, greater workload, but no area of expertize:  "How can we help you today Citizen A??  Passport, Birth certificate, CPP question? Federal Survivor benefits question? Immigrant questions? PTSD? No worries, I know it all it this town."

The closure is huge news in Sydney generating many protests for quite some time now ... Sydney has a huge Vet population however.  Perhaps the devil is in the locations they chose to close and not in the closures themselves. When a VAC satellite already has a vast client-base in location X, why would it be among those closed to amalgamate into a Service Canada location with 1/2 of the staff, but now quadruple the workload and no expertize?  That's what baffles me.


----------



## bridges

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> When a VAC satellite already has a vast client-base in location X, why would it be among those closed to amalgamate into a Service Canada location with 1/2 of the staff, but now quadruple the workload and no expertize?  That's what baffles me.



The government loves to consolidate in the name of savings.  For anyone dealing with the loss of IT services in the "more efficient" SSC these days, this kind of tactic will be all too familiar.  Staff is reduced, workload isn't - with the result that someone gets a promotion for saving money, while necessary things no longer get done.  

Meanwhile, I hope that any veterans who are disadvantaged by this change will speak up about it, in a respectful manner, with concrete examples.


----------



## ModlrMike

And now Mr Staples and crew is on the case:

http://www.ceasefire.ca/?page_id=17603


----------



## George Wallace

Any bandwagon to promote himself.   :


----------



## ModlrMike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Any bandwagon to promote himself. *at our expense*  :



FTFY


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I live I an area with a closed office.

I'll decide, likely within the next few months, if my services have diminished.

If I decide they have, I will stop voting CPC for the duration


----------



## Journeyman

recceguy said:
			
		

> If I decide they have, I will stop voting CPC for the duration



Sorry, but you've already posted that you're not voting Conservative





			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I will be voting again this time. However, my ballot will be a write in for Libertarian, Rhino or 'None of the above'. Depending how I feel that day.



Just sayin'   :dunno:


----------



## Container

I don't doubt the union stuff. It's unfortunate that Fantino is such an easy target for the.m to get press off of. I doubt I'll ever look at Fantino (what is the respectful thing to call him anyways? The minister?) and feel like he's getting treated unfairly.

I like small government. So I guess I understand that the cpc wants "small government"- I think that we start to disagree when it appears that for them wanting to trim the fat means treating people that work for the government like they are mooching.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Sorry, but you've already posted that you're not voting Conservative
> Just sayin'   :dunno:



Seriously? That's your take away?


----------



## Lightguns

Container said:
			
		

> I like small government. So I guess I understand that the cpc wants "small government"- I think that we start to disagree when it appears that for them wanting to trim the fat means treating people that work for the government like they are mooching.



Concur, the amount of stuff ALL folks want from the government is going beyond what we can afford.  Yes, there is lots of waste, politicans to directors to senior military officers to the average Joe who surfs the net half his work day are all entitled to their entitlements.  We need to mange our expectations.  

As for the CPC, I owe them one on the gun registry and they will get my vote, even though I will hold my nose while doing it.  That was the first real attempt at moving to a big "C" conservative government which is my stream of political belief.  I will nail them next time on my vet benefits if I have to.  It is simply a case that no other party can be trusted not to steal my guns.


----------



## Franko

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> And now Mr Staples and crew is on the case:
> 
> http://www.ceasefire.ca/?page_id=17603



I wouldn't sign anything he or his minions are involved in at all.


----------



## OldSolduer

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> I wouldn't sign anything he or his minions are involved in at all.



Ditto.


----------



## Journeyman

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> I wouldn't sign anything he or his minions are involved in at all.


But they suggest that you 'personalize' the email, noting that "personal comments will give the message much greater impact."  

Leave the same address group, but change the text to something along the lines of "ceasefire.ca is meaningless rabble; you should ignore them as does the rest of the country"   >


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> But they suggest that you 'personalize' the email, noting that "personal comments will give the message much greater impact."
> 
> Leave the same address group, but change the text to something along the lines of "ceasefire.ca is meaningless rabble; you should ignore them as does the rest of the country"   >


 :rofl:


----------



## upandatom

Fantino…..
How did he get this position anyways…..


----------



## Nemo888

Same as almost every other position he has held. Unpopular cuts have to be made and the powers that be want some idiot to force them down and take the heat. He has made a career of being flamboyantly ignorant and combative. It works like a charm as everyone remembers Fantino being a dick and almost never think of who put him in the position.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Same as almost every other position he has held. Unpopular cuts have to be made and the powers that be want some idiot to force them down and take the heat. He has made a career of being flamboyantly ignorant and combative. It works like a charm as everyone remembers Fantino being a dick and almost never think of who put him in the position.



We finally have a point of agreement.

I gotta sit down and have a drink. The apocalypse is upon us. I'm undecided whether it'll start with a plague of locusts or a downpour of toads.


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> We finally have a point of agreement.
> 
> I gotta sit down and have a drink. The apocalypse is upon us. I'm undecided whether it'll start with a .........



JD worked for a colleague of ours on Tour.  I am sure it can sooth your thirst for the moment.  Later?  Well that is another question, and one you can ponder as to which taste you prefer.   >


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> JD worked for a colleague of ours on Tour.  I am sure it can sooth your thirst for the moment.  Later?  Well that is another question, and one you can ponder as to which taste you prefer.   >


]
Any idea where Diz got to?

JD is an occasional thing, normally when I'm around motorcycles for some reason  :.

I'm a Connemarra or Laphroaig kind of guy, with Bushmills in a pinch.


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Any idea where Diz got to?



None.  He was quite migratory when he left; first in area of Kaladar or Kilaloe, then Barry's Bay.


----------



## TCBF

recceguy said:
			
		

> ]
> ...
> 
> I'm a Connemarra or Laphroaig kind of guy, with Bushmills in a pinch.



- That kind of rotgut I would expect to see served at McDonalds. Back in my drinkin' days, Jameson led the pack.


----------



## Danjanou

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Though from the video footage of the "meeting" it's pretty clear he's not the only one in that room that fits your description. For my part, I'm ashamed to have my interests represented by these self-appointed negotiators.



Finally got around to viewing this clip and couldn't agree more. Absolute gong show even before the PSAC shill started. :




			
				Jed said:
			
		

> Spot on. Our best means of accomplishing this is for the new Vets to sign on with the RCL and to change that organization's attitudes from within. Like all human endeavours if we can stop the dick measuring from WWII vets, Korea Vets, Afghan Vets, Peacekeepers, REMFs, Combat Arms and concentrate on what is important, we will all be further ahead.



Good luck with that. You're right but only have to undo about 50 years of neglect on behalf of the RCL (deliberate or not)  and get the "new guys" onboard before the whole organization collapses. Me I'm tired of banging my head against that particular wall, someone else can take over.


----------



## Jed

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Finally got around to viewing this clip and couldn't agree more. Absolute gong show even before the PSAC shill started. :
> 
> 
> Good luck with that. You're right but only have to undo about 50 years of neglect on behalf of the RCL ( deliberate or not)  and get the "new guys" onboard before the whole organization collapses. me I'm tired of banging my head against that particular wall, someon else can take over.



I agree with you there. I will be giving it a try for a few years anyway.


----------



## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I'm tired of banging my head against that particular wall, someone else can take over.


Whoa......that was a deja vu moment.   ;D


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Whoa......that was a deja vu moment.   ;D



Jed I think JM just volunteered to join and help you. All his bling would look smashing on a Navy Blazer  :stirpot:


----------



## Jed

No doubt.  ;D


----------



## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Jed I think JM just volunteered to join and help you.


Well looking at the snow and thermometer, there's no signs that hell's freezing over.


----------



## blackberet17

You need a subscription to view the full article on The Hill Times (https://www.hilltimes.com/opinion-piece/politics/2014/04/28/misleading--column-on-veterans--programming-fantino/38303).

Here's a copy from our internal media service, which centrally collects all news media articles under a number of topics by keywords, including transcripts of interviews, radio broadcasts, etc.

PUBLICATION:  The Hill Times 
PAGE:   
DATE:  2014-04-28 
SECTION:   
EDITION:   
BYLINE:  Julian Fantino 
IMPORTANCE:   
LANGUAGE:  English 
REGION:  National 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Misleading column on veterans' programming: Fantino

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OTTAWA—Regarding Sean Bruyea’s column, “Veterans bang heads against Parliamentary, bureaucratic wall,” (The Hill Times, April 14, p.11). I must challenge this misleading piece on veterans’ programming that is based upon such fundamentally flawed premises. 

First and foremost, you would be hard-pressed to find an expert on modern disability management in this country who would argue that warehousing injured and ill veterans on disability pensions is an effective or humane thing to do.

Nor does a monthly disability pension of $800 (which is the average for a single veteran) represent anything close to financial security. As a former colleague of mine used to say, “Nobody gets rich on a disability pension.”

I accept that the Pension Act was a desperately needed creation from the First World War and that it still serves many traditional veterans well. But in the 21st century, with a well-developed social safety net in place, Canada’s veterans—and their families, for that matter—are right to expect a more modern and comprehensive approach to their rehabilitation from serious injuries and illnesses.

The New Veterans Charter (NVC) delivers this. It was designed to help all veterans make a successful transition to civilian life, and it provides the holistic care and support that injured and ill veterans need to make the best recovery possible, in the shortest amount of time. The column will never convince me that this isn’t the first priority for any injured Canadian.

Furthermore, the NVC is anything but a “repackaging of already existing programs with (a) few limited additions.” Among other things, the NVC introduced a comprehensive vocational component to help veterans pursue rewarding new careers. That’s particularly important when members of the Canadian Armed Forces are now releasing at an average age of 37 years old. And, with the cutting-red-tape measures our government introduced last fall, eligible veterans have greater access than ever to as much as $75,800 for their education or retraining.

In addition, veterans participating in our rehabilitation program are eligible for a minimum annual (pre-tax) income of $42,426 while they are focused on getting better. For seriously injured veterans, there are other monthly financial benefits available that will raise their pre-tax income to at least $61,800 a year.

However, these new, and subsequently enhanced, financial benefits tell only part of the story.

The greatest strengths of the New Veterans Charter are three-fold:

•The NVC is designed to ensure the greatest help to those who need it most. This means that the most seriously injured and ill veterans have access to everything from one-on-one case management services to full physical and psychological rehabilitation services, as well as ongoing financial support, vocational assistance and health-care benefits;

•The NVC provides more support to families than ever before, including everything from rehabilitation services and access to our specialized clinics to vocational assistance and group health insurance; and

•The NVC is always here for veterans. Anyone who voluntarily released from the Canadian Armed Forces can still count on our support even if a service-related injury or illness only surfaces many years later.

Having said all this, our government agrees that the New Veterans Charter must continue to evolve with the increasingly diverse and complex needs of Canada’s veterans and their families. That is why I asked the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs to conduct a comprehensive review of the NVC. The committee’s hearings have just wrapped up and I am looking forward to reading their report.

After all, our government has already invested a total of almost $5-billion in new funding to enhance veterans’ benefits, programs and services since 2006. We have no plans to rest on our laurels now.

Source: http://www.hilltimes.com/opinion-piece/politics/2014/04/28/misleading--column-on-veterans--programming-fantino/38303


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Hmmmmm. How to do this succinctly without going into a full page rant. :

Fantino is a jerk and treats Veterans the way he treated the people of Ontario during the Caledonia Land Grab.


Now I feel better. ;D


----------



## observor 69

And let's not forget the way he treated his senior people when he was OPP commissioner.  

http://rantingcanadian.tumblr.com/post/40998596182/julian-fantino-once-a-dirty-cop-now-a-dirty

Just an all around nice guy. NOT


----------



## PuckChaser

Red tape cutting? My application I submitted in January is still on stage 1. When I inquired, they're waiting on information from DND. I'm still serving, I could have faxed or couriered them whatever they needed in a week, we're at 4 months.


----------



## blackberet17

It can take six months to get to Step 2, PuckChaser. Friend had an application in end of September, he only saw his award finally about three weeks ago.


----------



## Gramps

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> It can take six months to get to Step 2, PuckChaser. Friend had an application in end of September, he only saw his award finally about three weeks ago.


I had one get all the way through, even got a letter saying I was entitled to something, took about five months but then they wanted more info to decide the actual percentage. That "zeros" the clock and I am almost at the three month mark for that decision. In total it has been 7+ months for one of the most common medical issues they deal with and all I have been told is that it is still at the adjudication stage and could be another eight weeks before anything happens. Is this the Red Tape they allegedly cut?  

Edited timeline


----------



## PuckChaser

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> It can take six months to get to Step 2, PuckChaser. Friend had an application in end of September, he only saw his award finally about three weeks ago.



Thats my point, it shouldn't. If I submit an application, there should be someone to review it quickly and automatically request documents within a week. I have a feeling no one looked at my file until the beginning of April, and now they're scrambling to find paperwork. You want to turn veterans against VAC? This is the perfect way to do it. Waiting 6 months for documents from serving members is an absolute joke.


----------



## Nemo888

They are also reviewed by a nurse who makes 2/3rds(or less depending on hospital OT) what my wife makes as a nurse at the hospital. Make sure the doc explains what the test results mean.

Does VAC even still have docs who call you in for a diagnosis? They hated the job when I went through the system and turnover was pretty high. Most returned to private practice.


----------



## blackberet17

All I can do is speak to the process. And remember, I'm at VRAB, so not sure exactly what's happening in Adjudication.

An application is submitted. From there, it's sent to HO in Charlottetown. Once it arrives here, the contents of your application are reviewed. Your service docs are requested from NDHQ (I believe to include your file from your unit, since it would contain the most current service information, but not sure). This is where the biggest time loss occurs, as everything on you is gathered - entries in MIR docs, x-rays, CF98s, anything and everything available. Once it arrives, the file is reviewed, and all the relevant docs are identified and set aside.

Then requests are sent out for further information from any specialists you may have consulted (for which you would have already completed and submitted a permission to release medical information) for your claimed condition. Here again is a considerable time loss.

Once all that information is received, then a full review is completed. If there are questions from the Adjudicator, they may turn to one of the Medical Advisors for clarification (of the diagnosis, of the service relationship, and sometimes as well for the degree of disability/medical impairment rating).

So when I mentioned the friend who went from end September to March/April before payout, there's six-seven months right there. And it was for hearing loss, the most common of medical conditions seen at VAC.

My understanding is, if you are still serving, it can take as long if not longer than no longer serving members, as your file needs to be tracked down from all your previous postings, as well as the different MIRs you may have been to, etc. - which is an issue for DND, not VAC.

One thing I know VAC is doing now is, scanning all service docs it receives, whether or not it's related to the condition you've submitted an application for. Now, I don't know how long they've been doing this, but it "should" help with turnaround times in due time...but because still serving members are still moving around the country on postings and taskings, current information from DND will still be required to complete the file.

Remember, your service docs and medical service docs contain hundreds to thousands of sheets of paper. I've seen case files in the seven to eight volumes (roughly 200+ sheets per), and that's just the documents VAC retains for its purposes. All sorts of documents are in there: Medical Attendance Records (from your MIR visits); Medical Examination Records (your annual/biennial medical exams); CF98s; PERs; PDRs; Crse Reports; etc.

Where have they cut red tape? Beats me. I know they've cut positions. But red tape? If what they're talking about is the receipts you no longer have to turn in for VIP services, sure. Otherwise...not seen.


----------



## Gramps

Just to clarify. In my opinion, it is the system and process that is the problem. I have spoken to a number of DVA employees and all (with the exception of one) were courteous and very helpful.


----------



## blackberet17

Sorry Gramps, hope you don't think by my diatribe I was attacking your point or anything. I know where a lot of the frustration stems from. I just try to explain the process as much as possible.


----------



## Gramps

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> Sorry Gramps, hope you don't think by my diatribe I was attacking your point or anything. I know where a lot of the frustration stems from. I just try to explain the process as much as possible.



No worries. I didnt think that anything was any kind of an attack, I just wanted to make sure it was understood that, in my opinion it is the system that is the problem and not the people (at least the vast majority I have dealt with).


----------



## PuckChaser

Gramps said:
			
		

> No worries. I didnt think that anything was any kind of an attack, I just wanted to make sure it was understood that, in my opinion it is the system that is the problem and not the people (at least the vast majority I have dealt with).



Definitely the truth, for the most part. People can only work as fast as the system allows. I'm sure case managers don't want a file open for 2 years, but when the process they need to follow creates the ridiculous delays, its hardly their fault.


----------



## Teager

> Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino says a new government ad that has begun to air during prime-time NHL playoff games is aimed at improving communications with Canada's veterans.
> 
> But in question period on Tuesday, Liberal MP Frank Valeriote suggested Conservatives were spending big to promote themselves.
> 
> Valeriote referenced how Tories spent more than $1 million last year on ads during the Stanley Cup playoffs promoting a Canada Jobs Grant program that did not exist.
> 
> Advertising Standards Canada ruled in August the ads were "misleading" but the Harper government received no sanctions. Earlier this year, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, however, awarded the Tories their annual award for wasteful federal spending.
> 
> An internal government report obtained by The Canadian Press showed the job grant ads were deliberately pitched to men, as viewership for the NHL playoffs was about 60 per cent male.
> 
> Valeriote said Tuesday that Tories were "feeding" on Canada's heightened sense of veterans' issues to promote what he called an "underfunded and failing" career services program.
> 
> The program allows veterans to be reimbursed for some services that may help them transition to civilian life, including job finding assistance or interview techniques.
> 
> 
> "Why would they spend millions of dollars more on ads while not funding the very programs that veterans have been pleading for?" Valeriote asked.
> 
> Fantino said Valeriote was incorrect with his assertion.
> 
> "I have heard time and again that Veterans Affairs needs to improve its communications with Canadian veterans and indeed Canadians," he said.
> 
> Fantino said veterans need to know about the financial support, mental health services, and rehabilitation programs available to them.
> 
> "Is that member really saying that we should not be telling veterans and informing them and their families on how they can access benefits?" Fantino asked.



More at link http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/13/julian-fantino-veterans-affairs-ad-nhl_n_5319349.html

I have seen this ad and had to laugh. If you haven't seen it there is a video of it at the link. I found it very vague and wondered who the target audience really is?


----------



## Teager

> OTTAWA - Veterans Affairs is spending an additional $4 million on advertising this year — including television spots throughout the NHL playoffs — but ignoring the plight of families who care for injured soldiers, says the spouse of a veteran with post-traumatic stress disorder.
> 
> An angry Jenifer Migneault chased after Julian Fantino and demanded to speak to the veterans affairs minister following his appearance Thursday at a House of Commons committee hearing.
> 
> The spectacle played out before a crush of reporters, television cameras and microphones in a scene reminiscent of Fantino's testy encounter last winter with veterans angry about the closure of federal offices.
> 
> This time Fantino — whose image took a bruising in the last encounter — chose not to stop and explain the government's position.
> 
> "I'm offended," an embittered Migneault said afterward.
> 
> "A man like that is supposed to be so proud of my husband's service? C'mon, that's a joke ... We're the ones who live 24 hours a day with their heroes."
> 
> The Harper government has poured millions of extra dollars into veterans benefits and services, but the challenges faced by caregivers represent a major funding gap, one that has received little public attention.
> 
> Migneault, whose husband Claude Rainville was diagnosed with PTSD eight years ago, has tried to raise awareness, but she said she can't get Conservative MPs — including Fantino's parliamentary secretary, Parm Gill — to return her calls.
> 
> The spouses of physically and mentally wounded soldiers need training and support to be caregivers, said Migneault. Most of what she's learned has been on her own, including a 40-hour class to help her better understand when best to simply listen to her husband, and when to intervene.
> 
> The money being spent on increased advertising should go elsewhere, Migneault said.
> 
> "Please just use that money to talk to us," she said.
> 
> "We'll tell you a whole lot about our husbands that you guys don't know about. Spend the money in the right place and you'll see real results."
> 
> During his testimony, Fantino defended the increase, saying the ads are an attempt by the government to communicate directly with veterans and dispel what he called "misinformation" surrounding the treatment of ex-soldiers.
> 
> "We are faced with the bantering that goes back and forth about what is — or isn't (covered); what facts and non-facts are; and also the fear mongering, " Fantino told the committee.
> 
> He described the information battle as one of the government's "biggest challenges."
> 
> Still, neither Fantino nor his deputy minister could say how much the advertising increase is going towards expensive prime-time ads during playoff hockey games — or how much each commercial is costing.
> 
> The opposition parties accused the government of promoting itself at the expense of improved programs and benefits. Liberal critic Frank Valeriote pointed out that this year's federal budget increased transition services for veterans by only $11,000.
> 
> "I'm wondering how you can justify for us your department spending more on advertising — a $4-million increase in advertising — and less on the actual programs themselves," Valeriote said.
> 
> The TV ads emphasize efforts to move soldiers smoothly from military to civilian life, even though the federal government often relies on independent agencies, such as the Veterans Transition Network and Canada Command, to build those bridges for individuals.
> 
> Critics within the veterans community have said the ads are misleading and give the impression the government is doing more than it actually is.



http://www.theprovince.com/news/national/Tories+spend+4million+more+vets+counter+misinformation/9888657/story.html


----------



## jollyjacktar

That tub of lard, Fatino has to go.  Makes me quite passed off to see him at the helm.


----------



## Crispy Bacon

Teager said:
			
		

> OTTAWA - Veterans Affairs is spending an additional $4 million on advertising this year — including television spots throughout the NHL playoffs — but ignoring the plight of families who care for injured soldiers, says the spouse of a veteran with post-traumatic stress disorder.



 : Another attention w***e who the media is more than happy to oblige with 15 minutes of fame. Seriously, how can you ambush a minister outside a committee meeting (conveniently with cameras waiting) and complain when he can't stop to talk to you?

We can't talk out of both sides of our mouthes.  We complained that we didn't know what benefits were available, who to contact, etc.  Well, they're increasing advertising now to let us know.  And we're upset that the advertising budget is too high?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The arrogant jerk failed to even recognize her. The least he could have done was have one of the many people with him get her contact info and apologize for not being able to stop.

Everything they're spending $4 mil + on in advertising sounds great til you call 1-866-522-2122 (VAC). Once the phone is picked up on their end, everything turns into a total clusterfuck.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> : Another attention w***e who the media is more than happy to oblige with 15 minutes of fame. Seriously, how can you ambush a minister outside a committee meeting (conveniently with cameras waiting) and complain when he can't won't stop to talk to you?





			
				Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> We can't talk out of both sides of our mouthes.  We complained that we didn't know what benefits were available, who to contact, etc.  Well, they're increasing advertising now to let us know.  And we're upset that the advertising budget is too high?


Good point.  The question becomes:  what are the ads advertising?  "Here's what's out there" or "lookit how good we are"?   Haven't seen the ads in question, so I stand to be educated.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Everything they're spending $4 mil + on in advertising sounds great til you call 1-866-522-2122 (VAC). Once the phone is picked up on their end, everything turns into a total clusterfuck.


Zackly - rubber, meet road.


----------



## Nemo888

Maybe if Fantino hadn't ignored her repeatedly Jenny Migneault wouldn't be losing her crap. This is not her first time on the Hill. MacKay promised many things to spouses of completely disabled vets. I have the emails to prove it. Not one was kept of course. 

Programs in pamphlets do not equal actual benefits. Remember the useless millions stuffed into the last post fund but the completely unchanged eligibility requirements? Education is the same story.  They approve a tiny handful and refuse the rest for bureaucratic reasons. How many degrees have been paid for by VAC for disabled vets? The last count I heard was three. How about the fiasco of Priority Hiring,.... Need I go on?


http://www.rockthehill.ca/

"Canada's Veterans are planning on going to Ottawa on June 4th to protest the total breach of trust that this government has shown towards us and the disregard of the sacred oath that has been in place since World War I.

We also plan to enlighten the public on the amount of misinformation that this government is putting out with documented proof.

By doing so we will be showing this government that we are no longer going to just stand by and take the continued mistreatment of our rights.

You don't have to be a Vet, or have anything to do with the military, to show your support. Actually, the more civilians the better.

This will not be just a one-day event, as we plan on staying as long as it takes. "


----------



## George Wallace

I don't have much time for Fantino, but I can sympathize with him if I were be be "ambushed" in a hallway on the way to a meeting.  There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and that ambush with the media was not the right way.  As for four million towards advertizing, that is a drop in the bucket, and may be something that is necessary to get the word out to Veterans who need assistance.

Here is a Release that just hit the airwaves:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK




> Oye! News from Canada
> Fantino Says Government to Improve Veteran Benefits
> Category: Canada Published on Thursday, 29 May 2014 16:26 Written by Sam Dixon
> 
> The government finally decided to answer the increasing criticism about mistreatment of veterans on Thursday, as it announced to unveil new improved benefits. According to an announcement by the Veterans Affairs Minister, Julian Fantino, he's prepared to implement recommendations from a Commons committee studying the New Veterans Charter, which has been panned in some circles.
> 
> Addressing the committee, Fantino alleged that "I think the outcome of the review will no doubt address some of the shortcomings in the charter." He added that "what we want to do and what I believe you are trying to do...is to find a way to make it more inclusive, more comprehensive and more effective or beneficial...I'm committed to doing that as well." Fantino had requested the committee to review the charter to address complaints from veterans who say they're being short-changed. In addition to that, Fantino was also blamed for increasing the department's advertising budget by $4 million because opposition MPs claimed that the money should instead go to vets. NDP MP Peter Stoffer claimed to have received several complaints about numerous ads he said were more political than about helping veterans. Liberal MP Frank Valeriote accused the government of promoting itself.
> 
> However, rejecting all accusations, Fantino pointed out that the budget was increased to counter "misinformation, miscommunication, confusion and the lack of awareness" about what services are available. He explained that "it's not about advertising on behalf of government," but “it's just trying to reach those who are committed and dedicated to serve and help."



Things like this don't happen at the waving of a magic wand, so this must have been in the works for some time.  Now, I await some of those obnoxious "Veteran's Rights" personalities who claim to be the advocates for all veterans and Veteran's Rights to claim it as one of their 'victories'.   (Note the Date Time Group of the publication and then the time when the ambush in the hallway occurred.)


----------



## Teager

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Good point.  The question becomes:  what are the ads advertising?  "Here's what's out there" or "lookit how good we are"?   Haven't seen the ads in question, so I stand to be educated.



This link had the ad when I last viewed it http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/13/julian-fantino-veterans-affairs-ad-nhl_n_5319349.html

I've also read that there appears to be issues with no one answering the number given in the ad how true that is I don't know. The ad does not say anything about any benefits available to vets other than call this number for more info. What I find very odd is that the ad talks about transition out of the military so really its targeting members heading out the door not vets already released. Also if your headed for a release you are given this info numerous times. IMO 4 million completely wasted.


----------



## pinger206

Hey Teager, I agree with you... "IMO 4 million completely wasted." As I hear VAC awareness ads on radio stations, or see them for websites recently, they lead one to as much indepth transparency as the VAC site has. If someone is seeking indepth benefits or support, find the policy documents. They are in legalese but binding. They are not advertised very well. Every iota of a VAC benefit has a policy document. But hardly any vets seems to know of them. 

pinger206

Rock the Hill


----------



## George Wallace

pinger206



			
				pinger206 said:
			
		

> Rock the Hill



Have you checked out that website; http://www.rockthehill.ca/


I don't know if I would seriously trust some of those characters to represent me.  Mike Blais is controversial enough with his agenda, but when I see the photos of Rob Gallant and Kenneth H. Young, I become quite skeptical about whom or what they are trying to represent.  I doubt passing oneself off looking like a "Court Jester" does any cause any good.   

There are some very fine people being presented on that site as being Keynote Speakers, whom many of us know and respect, and I wonder if their photos and bios may have been added to that site under less than ethical circumstances.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Teager said:
			
		

> This link had the ad when I last viewed it http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/05/13/julian-fantino-veterans-affairs-ad-nhl_n_5319349.html
> 
> I've also read that there appears to be issues with no one answering the number given in the ad how true that is I don't know. The ad does not say anything about any benefits available to vets other than call this number for more info. What I find very odd is that the ad talks about transition out of the military so really its targeting members heading out the door not vets already released. Also if your headed for a release you are given this info numerous times. IMO 4 million completely wasted.


Thanks for sharing the link.

While it shares _some_ info, if the phone # it shares leads to "your call is important to us" heartache, I'm not convinced this is going to help a lot of folks realize there's stuff out there for them.

Then again, it doesn't look like a "lookit how s**t hot the government has been in helping vets", either.


----------



## pinger206

To George Wallace,
       I may respect your opinion in more than one way. Truly, different degree's, slants or motives? Bear in mind an openmind can also be that of the understated... Anyone come to mind? Foresight begets hindsight 20/20.... I bear that in mind as it has served me well. 
     If someone seems unorthodox or different in their approach just listen for a while. Give them their speak and time. I hope you are not of the opin that every vet needs to be 2 fingers above the collar? Or that the Rock the Hill main website shows some pictures that are not... DND photo's? Stiff upper lip? Think I'll vist Bruce Moncur, maybe he has a better hairstylist because my hair needs help. I pulled all mine out dealing with VAC. Appearances count for squat, mine are just fine but my integrity is getting peeved off by the Government of Canada so I will go to Ottawa.
    
Respectfully... pinger206.

Rock the Hill


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

"MONEY"......"Give us money"....."we want money".......all starting to sound like the same drivel to me.


----------



## Journeyman

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> "MONEY"......"Give us money"....."we want money".......all starting to sound like the same drivel to me.


Maybe Chief Spence will be their technical advisor.   :nod:


----------



## PuckChaser

I noticed that lady who ambushed Fantino is listed as a speaker at Rock the Hill. Looks more and more like a manufactured publicity stunt using her outrage as a pawn to get media looking at VAC again before this week's event.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Let's get back on track here. I don't care much who or why manages to portray the Min of VA as a ponce and jester. I don't care who exposes him or how. He's, to put it as simple as possible, a sinking turd.

His ads are bullshit. They're a feel good piece for the public consumption. The Vets already know what's available and how to access it. The problems, as I said earlier, start when you call VAC. Then the walls go up.

And if the commercials truly are for those Vets that don't know, they say what's available, but once again, not how to access it.

Waste of money and more Fantino bullshit. However, given all the scandals he's skated from, (Caledonia anyone? : ) he is now simply being hired as a professional scapegoat. Willing to take the heat for whatever master pays him the most. He has become a master himself, of obfuscation, confusion and downright deceit.

A pox on his house.


----------



## Occam

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Good point.  The question becomes:  what are the ads advertising?  "Here's what's out there" or "lookit how good we are"?   Haven't seen the ads in question, so I stand to be educated.



If you go to http://www.veterans.gc.ca/services, one of the ads is at the upper left.  They're advertising Career Transition Services (CTS).

VAC CTS used to be offered to both serving and released personnel, up to two years after release.  Sometime within the last few years, VAC offloaded the responsibility for CTS for serving members to DND.  Not sure what DND covers now for serving members under the CTS umbrella.

VAC assumed full responsibility for the CTS for released members; they're eligible for the services up to two years after release.

Now, I can't speak for how it is now, but three years ago when I was preparing for release...

- details of CTS services available were covered during SCAN seminars
- details of CTS services were provided when you had your release interview with a VAC rep, which was a mandatory tick in the box for your release
- details of CTS services were provided by caseworkers when you were getting a medical release

About the only way you could release without hearing about CTS was if you wilfully ignored information being given to you.

The CTS commercials are beyond redundant and a total waste of money.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Occam said:
			
		

> If you go to http://www.veterans.gc.ca/services, one of the ads is at the upper left.  They're advertising Career Transition Services (CTS).
> 
> VAC CTS used to be offered to both serving and released personnel, up to two years after release.  Sometime within the last few years, VAC offloaded the responsibility for CTS for serving members to DND.  Not sure what DND covers now for serving members under the CTS umbrella.
> 
> VAC assumed full responsibility for the CTS for released members; they're eligible for the services up to two years after release.
> 
> Now, I can't speak for how it is now, but three years ago when I was preparing for release...
> 
> - details of CTS services available were covered during SCAN seminars
> - details of CTS services were provided when you had your release interview with a VAC rep, which was a mandatory tick in the box for your release
> - details of CTS services were provided by caseworkers when you were getting a medical release
> 
> About the only way you could release without hearing about CTS was if you wilfully ignored information being given to you.
> 
> The CTS commercials are beyond redundant and a total waste of money.



Hades has indeed turned H2O from liquid to solid.

I knew we'd eventually agree on something  8)


----------



## Occam

recceguy said:
			
		

> Hades has indeed turned H2O from liquid to solid.
> 
> I knew we'd eventually agree on something  8)



I was going to say the same thing, but I figured I'd only jinx myself.


----------



## Journeyman

Plagues?  Locusts?   What's the next 'sign'?     :-\


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Plagues?  Locusts?   What's the next 'sign'?     :-\



Torrents of toads.


----------



## Crispy Bacon

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> This will not be just a one-day event, as we plan on staying as long as it takes. "



So it's a strike protest?


----------



## Danjanou

recceguy said:
			
		

> Torrents of toads.



I think that's the name of the band playing Rock the Hill  8)


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I think that's the name of the band playing Rock the Hill  8)




Many people copy what I say.**

Bands should be no different 

**_Mostly to use in some sort of discipline hearing or top prove I actually said it to the Minister._ :blotto:


----------



## McG

This could bode well for the future.


> Walt Natynczyk, head of the Canadian Space Agency, moves to veterans affairs
> CBC News
> 29 Oct 2014
> 
> The head of the Canadian Space Agency is leaving the position after barely more than a year on the job.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Walt Natynczyk will become deputy veterans affairs minister, effective this coming Monday.
> 
> Harper made the announcement in a statement today.
> 
> Natynczyk had been head of the space agency since August 2013, when he replaced former Canadian astronaut Steve MacLean.
> 
> The retired military general also served as the Canadian Forces' chief of defence staff from 2008 to 2012.
> 
> Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino said in a statement Natynczyk "arrives at a crucial time for our department, which is in the midst of an ongoing transformation to further improve how it supports veterans and their families when they make the important transition to civilian life."
> 
> Iain Christie, executive vice-president of the Aerospace Industries Association of Canada, expressed surprise when informed of the move.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/walt-natynczyk-head-of-the-canadian-space-agency-moves-to-veterans-affairs-1.2817451


----------



## jollyjacktar

Awesome choice.  Walt will bring something good to that department.


----------



## GAP

well....somebody has to clean up after Fantino................


----------



## The Bread Guy

GAP said:
			
		

> well....somebody has to clean up after Fantino................


One hopes - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 - although under current elected management, if changes _were_ desired, they would have happened, no matter who was in charge.


----------



## Remius

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> One hopes -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - although under current elected management, if changes _were_ desired, they would have happened, no matter who was in charge.



Good point.  They may have appointed a friendly credible face in the hopes of quelling any issues.  I wouldn't be surprised if we saw him resigning in disgust down the line.  Hopefully this is a good sign but I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## ModlrMike

I too have high hopes. That being said, the problem with VAC lies more in the bureaucrats and staff, rather than in the Minister or DM I wager.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I too have high hopes. That being said, the problem with VAC lies more in the bureaucrats and staff, rather than in the Minister or DM I wager.



....and of course a cynical person might just think, "a former CDS?",...........so, a fellow in a position for change, did not change anything in the bureaucratic disaster that is the Canadian military while he was there? 
But all of a sudden he'll bring hope and justice for all?  
That's, of course, if one was cynical................


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Same government, different mouth piece = no change


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> That's, of course, if one was cynical................


One is so young to be so cynical  ;D


----------



## ModlrMike

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Same government, different mouth piece = no change



Yes, but we have also seen different government, different mouth piece = no change. 

The problems with VAC transcend changes in government, and are emblematic of the greater issue of bureaucrats running the show rather than those we elect. But that's a topic for another thread.


----------



## The Bread Guy

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The problems with VAC transcend changes in government, and are emblematic of the greater issue of bureaucrats running the show rather than those we elect. But that's a topic for another thread.


If a government with a clear majority can't make substantive change (even in environments where culture trumps new strategy by a huge margin), either 1)  the system is beyond repair, or 2)  what's the point of changing governments?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Yes, but we have also seen different government, different mouth piece = no change.



I agree 100%.


----------



## OldTanker

My sense, having known Walt personally for many years, is if he can't sort out VAC, nobody can.


----------



## sidemount

I'm gonna go with "nobody can"

I have zero faith that anything will drastically change.

Have come to expect that from the government


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I think you mean all governments


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Part of the problem is the senior ranks of the PS figure they can wait him out as he will or will be moved at a later date. Now if you could confirm that he is going to be there for 5 years and give the proverbial claymore to smite his senior EX's with, then you will see meaningful change.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Unfortunately, the PM seems to want to keep moving him around before he does anything anywhere, as sort of a PM's firefighter that never gets a chance to get his hoses out when he gets to a fire.

My wife works at the Space Agency and she says that he hasn't had a chance to really change anything yet after one year. This does not surprise me as space planning works over decades, not weeks.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Good or bad, at least it's a soldier. Not that meddlesome idiot Fantino. And yes, I think he's going to get moved. Hehas made a total shambles of the portfolio. From claiming cops are just like soldiers to alienating every real Vet in the country. Fantino is a bumbling bag of hammers.


----------



## Sully

recceguy said:
			
		

> Good or bad, at least it's a soldier.



This.


----------



## Rifleman62

Rather than start a new thread:

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/departure-of-top-staffer-marks-shake-up-underway-at-veterans-affairs-1.2101084

*Departure of top staffer marks shake-up underway at Veterans Affairs*

The Canadian Press
Published Thursday, November 13, 2014 3:47PM CST


OTTAWA - Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino is losing a key staff member in yet another sign that a major shake-up is underway in the politically troubled portfolio.

Jacques Fauteux, Fantino's chief of staff and top adviser, revealed today that he is leaving, effective immediately.

His departure comes just days after retired general Walt Natynczyk, the country's former top military commander, took over as deputy minister, the department's top civil servant.

Natynczyk's appointment, announced by the prime minister at the end of October, was seen as a move by the Conservatives to get a handle on a file that has caused the government a lot of grief.

Angry veterans promised again this week to campaign against the Conservatives in next year's election, citing grievances about benefits and the closure of Veterans Affairs offices.

Fantino was involved in a testy exchange with ex-soldiers on Parliament Hill last winter and also walked away from an angry military wife last spring -- two televised incidents that made him appear less than sympathetic to the plight of the wounded and their families.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Hmmm.  Chief of Staff is a political position.  This may have as much to do with Fantino's fading star as anything else.


----------



## Monsoon

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Chief of Staff is a political position.  This may have as much to do with Fantino's fading star as anything else.


Nah, no connection. Political staffers tend to move out in the year leading up to an election as more stable job prospects present themselves.


----------



## Pieman

How much power within the VA system does this position really give him? if he has no authority to change certain things then his hands are tied anyway, and there definitely will be no change.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Pieman said:
			
		

> How much power within the VA system does this position really give him? if he has no authority to change certain things then his hands are tied anyway, and there definitely will be no change.



The Department is run by the DM on behalf of the Minister.  The DM exercises the financial authorities. accountabilities and responsibilities associated with the Department on behalf of the Minister.  Everyone in the Department (except the Minister's political staff) works for the DM.  In short, everything that does not require Cabinet approval will be directed by the DM.  He can have an enormous influence on how the Department functions, on its culture, etc. Can he direct that the New Veterans Charter be changed?  No.  Is he responsible for developing policy for the Minister's and ultimately Cabinet's approval?  Yes.

I would suggest that he can change many things within the Department.


----------



## Pieman

> I would suggest that he can change many things within the Department.



Then I expect nothing less than a few heads on a pike outside the front entrance to the VA main office.


----------



## Gunner98

I have been reserving comment but following the previous posts in this thread.  Now that the bungle of the $200 million influx over 50 years for mental health care, who (still) feels that the Deputy Minister:

1) is taking down names;
2) is carving pike or spikes;
3) is he finding that the fire is hotter than expected;
4) may not have known what he was getting into; 
5) is responsible for the bungle (inferred from PPCLI Guy's influence submission below);
6) will find a way to sort out the bungle and save face with veterans; or
7) will suddenly move to a different department, the third desk in 2 years.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

1) who's names and to what end
2) 
3) most likely 
4) not to this extent
5) I think PPCLI Guy said he would have positive guidance 
6) the reason for his posting there was/is a smoke screen
7) not if he has anything to say about it


----------



## Kat Stevens

My inner cynic tells me this was an appeasement appointment.  Old bitter soldiers are more willing to take a big bite of the shit sandwich sans gravy if it's served up by one of our own. Same shit, different bread.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I'm not sure that's the case anymore. Esp with the Afg vets. They simply have no fucks to give


----------



## The Bread Guy

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> 7) not if he has anything to say about it


In the end, not up to him.

He's a good man, so I hope for the best - within the lanes he's allowed to work within.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Oh yeah I get that


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that's the case anymore. Esp with the Afg vets. They simply have no fucks to give



Not even close...............a very loud vocal minority make it seem that way.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Well I don't care who they have in his position or what his background is. They all read from the same sheet of music provided by the PMO


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumped with the latest from the Globe....


> Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino is being told to resign by opposition MPs who accuse him of deliberately lying to Canadians about the scope of the Conservative government’s investment in the mental health of former military men and women.
> 
> Mr. Fantino returned to the House of Commons on Monday after an official trip to Italy to face questions about an announced $200-million for mental-health initiatives that Veterans Affairs documents said would be spread over six years. Staff in his office later told The Globe and Mail that $140.1-million of the money will be spread over the duration of a program for operational stress injuries. And that, they said, could take 50 years ....


.... Hill Times (subscription needed) ....


> Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino has spent a total of $53,588 travelling abroad to attend commemorations at cemeteries or war monuments, from Korea through Europe, since Prime Minister Stephen Harper named him to his post last year, departmental records and Mr. Fantino’s ministerial public expense postings show.
> 
> The amount Mr. Fantino (Vaughan, Ont.) spent on the nine trips he has taken abroad from July 2013 to September 2014 dwarfs the $7,772 he spent travelling within Canada to attend meetings with Veterans Affairs Canada officials or to take part in events such as a one-day summit on homeless veterans the Canadian Legion held in Toronto ....


.... and the Ottawa Citizen:


> When Julian Fantino was elected to Parliament in November 2010, he was seen as a star. A former Toronto police chief and Ontario Provincial Police commissioner, the hard-nosed cop had the credentials to shine in a Conservative government that billed itself as tough on crime.
> 
> Four years later, the view is very different.
> 
> When Auditor General Michael Ferguson released an explosive report detailing the hurdles many veterans still face trying to access mental health services, Fantino was an ocean away in Italy. His office defended the trip, which marked the 70th anniversary of the Second World War’s Italian campaign. But some questioned whether Fantino was running from the auditor’s findings. Or worse, whether Prime Minister Stephen Harper had decided to keep him out of sight ....


.... and word of a change of face on the Minister's staff:


> An aide to Prime Minister Stephen Harper has taken over as chief of staff to embattled Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino as opposition MPs call for his resignation.
> 
> Stephen Lecce, the director of media relations for Harper, will now also serve as interim top aide to Fantino as the Conservative government struggles to get a grip on a file that has turned into a political nightmare.
> 
> The staff shuffle comes just weeks after Walt Natynczyk, a retired top general who headed the Canadian Armed Forces, was named deputy minister of Veterans Affairs after a short stint heading the Canadian Space Agency.
> 
> The twin moves are seen as an attempt by the Conservatives to turn around a struggling department that has angered veterans and dragged down the government politically.
> 
> In the Commons Monday, the New Democrats and Liberals pressed Fantino to resign over criticism the department is failing veterans in need ....


----------



## ModlrMike

Lest no one be mistaken, there's no party in the house that has veteran's best interests in mind. All this noise is pure politics with little regard for those it affects in the end.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

THANK YOU!


----------



## PuckChaser

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Lest no one be mistaken, there's no party in the house that has veteran's best interests in mind. All this noise is pure politics with little regard for those it affects in the end.


Absolutely agree, great post.


----------



## OldSolduer

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Lest no one be mistaken, there's no party in the house that has veteran's best interests in mind. All this noise is pure politics with little regard for those it affects in the end.



I think you are correct, although its a sad state of affairs when you send people to fight our enemies, then fail to support them in their times of need.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest:  the PM stands by his man ....


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper came to the defence of his embattled veterans affairs minister Tuesday as calls continued for Julian Fantino to resign and for the government to apologize for misleading veterans.
> 
> The decision to make a senior member of Harper’s media team Fantino’s new chief of staff makes it clear the minister has lost control of the veterans file, Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair declared during question period.
> 
> “The prime minister doesn’t trust the minister to manage his own office, he puts in one of his own henchmen but he lets him take care of thousands of veterans,” Mulcair said.
> 
> “Since the prime minister clearly no longer trusts his minister, what is he waiting for to throw him out?”
> 
> The move wasn’t a big deal, Harper retorted, saying all ministers have chiefs of staff.
> 
> “I gather even the leader of the NDP has a chief of staff, obviously watching over the slow descent of that particular party,” he deadpanned, to the delight of the Tory caucus ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

Minister:  not to worry, vets, all in hand ....


> Our government will always stand up for our veterans, and together with all Canadians, we will never forget their service and sacrifice. Since first being elected in 2006, spending has been going up, while at the same time, the veterans population has been declining.
> 
> We have taken concrete action to improve the quality of life of veterans and their families. For example, we have delivered improved benefits and additional financial assistance for seriously injured veterans for life, announced new job training support and priority job placement for veterans as they transition into civilian life, opened 14 operational stress injury clinics and significantly enhanced long-term disability benefits for Canadian Forces members. These long-term investments into the welfare of our veterans mean that the programs and services will be operating for as long as our veterans need them.
> 
> Since I was humbled to become Canada’s minister of Veteran Affairs, I have met and listened to countless heroic veterans who put their country first. My pledge is simple: provide the very best care and improve benefits and supports.  I have heard from many veterans who urged the government to review the New Veterans Charter. Only months into my ministry, I personally called for a comprehensive review of the charter.
> 
> Like so many others, I wanted to know if there were any gaps in the benefits and services available for veterans and their families. When the committee issued their final report, our government moved forward to implement the measures that could be implemented quickly, such as more than doubling the number of counselling sessions for veterans and their families, ensuring that Canadian Armed Forces personnel are not medically released until they are in a stable medical condition, and that more health-care professionals are in place to provide service post-release.
> 
> Veterans also told me that additional mental health support is needed. I was proud to take action on that front, to build on our record, by investing significant funding in a comprehensive mental health strategy that will open eight new front-line mental health clinics, open seven family resource centres to medically releasing veterans and their families, along with significant new investments for world class research. Our government’s investment is enhancing services from coast to coast — in the communities of Halifax, Pembroke, Brockville, Chicoutimi, Kelowna, St. John’s, Victoria and Montreal.
> 
> We are acting on the advice of veterans by ensuring fewer forms, phone calls and steps are taken to access the benefits they need. We make no apologies for reducing the bureaucratic footprint in our effort to reduce paperwork, to guarantee veterans have their money in their pockets sooner and to ensure investments are moved to the front line.
> 
> I am seized with the importance of caring for our veterans and their families — to pay homage to the very people who fought for our freedom and defend our democracy and security. We will leave no stone unturned as we continue to take action to improve the lives of our veterans and their families.
> 
> _* Julian Fantino is the minister of Veterans Affairs*_


----------



## TCM621

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Minister:  not to worry, vets, all in hand ....


Yet we lost another one on Wednesday.


----------



## McG

...and the counter opinion is:


> Julian Fantino is too busy boasting of his record to hear calls for his head
> Kelly McParland
> National Post
> 11 Dec 2014
> 
> Julian Fantino was never going to go easily. He might be under intense attack in the House of Commons, veterans might be complaining about him across the land, he might be pummelled daily in the national media … but listen to his critics? Forget it.
> 
> You don’t get to head four major police forces if you have a thin skin. Mr. Fantino’s must be like rawhide. ETF forces could wear it as body armour. Zdeno Chara could throw himself full speed at the Veterans Affairs Minister and bounce off, bruised and bewildered.
> 
> Rather than acknowledge that, just maybe, some of the avalanche of accusations about his department might carry a hint of truth, Mr. Fantino wants everyone to know that they’re wrong. In the Halifax Chronicle Herald, he lays out the excellent job he feels he’s been doing since he was “humbled” to become minister 17 months ago. There are too many achievements to list individually, but Mr. Fantino has been busy.
> 
> “Our government will always stand up for veterans, and together with all Canadians, we will never forget their service and sacrifice,” he declared, a line he lifted from his parliamentary secretary Parm Gill, who used it in Winnipeg in August. “Since we were first elected in 2006, spending has been going up, while the veterans’ population has been declining.”
> 
> “We have taken concrete action to improve the quality of life of veterans and their families. For example, we have delivered improved benefits and additional financial assistance for seriously injured veterans for life, announced new job training support and priority job placement for veterans as they transition into civilian life, opened 14 operational stress injury clinics and significantly enhanced long-term disability benefits for Canadian Forces members.”
> 
> Acknowledging complaints about the New Veterans Charter, introduced by the Conservatives in 2006, he boasted: “Only months into my tenure as minister, I personally called for a comprehensive review [of the charter].”
> 
> When veterans spoke of inadequate mental health support,  “I was proud to take action on that front … by investing significant funding in a comprehensive mental health strategy.”
> 
> He has lots more to brag about, but you get the picture: People who think Minister Fantino hasn’t been doing a great job don’t know what they’re saying. They should clam up already and find something else to occupy their attention.
> 
> Behind the bluster, Mr. Fantino’s defence comes down to this: we’ve spent money. For the Stephen Harper Conservatives, that’s a big deal. Spending money is not their favourite occupation. That would be chopping costs to balance the budget. What they evidently haven’t done, and which seems to slide right past the minister’s awareness, is make sure the programs are working.
> 
> Throwing money at problems as a self-defence mechanism used to be a favourite Liberal practice. Whether the programs worked effectively or not was an afterthought. Most of the issues veterans have raised in recent months relate to the ineffectiveness of existing programs: excess red tape, inordinate wait times, benefits that exist in theory but are difficult to access.
> 
> The Tories may have been increasing budgets, but they’ve also been slashing staff. That’s not bad policy if services can still be delivered efficiently. But that hasn’t been the case: some of the biggest cuts have been in areas that attract the most criticism. Almost 900 jobs were cut in the disabilities division, identified by the Auditor General this month as a department with serious performance issues.
> 
> The government defended its failure to spend $1.13 billion in budgeted funds on the difficulty of forecasting needs. But why does it have an army of bureaucrats if not to figure out where the needs lie? At heart it reflects the core criticism in Auditor General Michael Ferguson’s report: the department just isn’t run well. It doesn’t have a solid understanding of its clientele, and it doesn’thandle their needs efficiently.
> 
> That should be self-evident. No matter how big the budget, the money is wasted if it’s not used effectively to address the needs of the veterans it is meant to serve. And the ongoing protests of the veterans, combined with the evidence of a department choked in its own red tape, suggest that’s exactly the case in Mr. Fantino’s ministry.
> 
> Mr. Fantino seems to be too busy boasting about his record to hear them. Good government isn’t measured by the size of the budget. Maybe when that message gets through to him he can start doing a better job for the men and women who served their country.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

> “Since we were first elected in 2006, spending has been going up, while the veterans’ population has been declining.”



Nice choice of words there, Sluggo.


----------



## blackberet17

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-replaces-julian-fantino-as-veterans-minister/article22291591/



> Julian Fantino appears to be on his way out as veterans affairs minister.
> 
> Multiple sources tell The Canadian Press the embattled Fantino is being replaced by Erin O’Toole, a southern Ontario MP and former member of the Royal Canadian Air Force.
> 
> The two of them have arrived at Rideau Hall, along with Prime Minister Stephen Harper, for a surprise ceremony. Fantino’s presence means he is likely to get another post within the federal cabinet.
> 
> Prior to being promoted to Veterans Affairs, Fantino was the associate minister of defence in charge of procurement.
> 
> A tough-talking former street cop who later became Toronto police chief and commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police, Fantino entered federal politics by winning a byelection in 2010.
> 
> He was re-elected in 2011 and named to the cabinet in January as minister of state for seniors. He became minister of international co-operation in July 2012 and went to Veterans Affairs a year later.
> 
> He found himself in political hot water almost from the moment he took the post.
> 
> Under Fantino, the department came under heavy fire from veterans groups, the veterans ombudsman, the auditor general and the political opposition.
> 
> Fantino’s efforts to defend office closures, job cuts, lapsed budget money and tweaks to pensions and benefits provoked anger from veterans and scorn from the NDP and Liberals.
> 
> There were public relations gaffes, including a much-publicized — and televised — confrontation with veterans, and the sight of Fantino walking down a parliamentary hallway, ignoring shouted questions from the wife of a former soldier.
> 
> Government lawyers went to court to argue that the government has no special responsibility to care for veterans, although that had been iron-clad policy since the First World War.
> 
> There were howls of protest when it was learned the department had allowed more than $1 billion of its budget to lapse and return to the federal treasury since 2006. The anger only grew when the department admitted spending $4 million on ads last year promoting its efforts to help veterans return to civilian life.
> 
> Reports detailed the troubles veterans encountered getting help and benefits from the department. Other studies suggested that wounded veterans would face poverty once they hit age 65.
> 
> Efforts to calm the situation failed. Tweaks to benefits and more money for mental health brought no respite. Fantino’s chief of staff quit and was replaced by a staffer from the Prime Minister’s Office.
> 
> Retired general Walt Natynczyk, the country’s former top military commander, was also appointed as Fantino’s deputy minister and senior civil servant.


----------



## blackberet17

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julian-fantino-out-as-veterans-affairs-minister-1.2889977



> The prime minister has replaced embattled Veterans Affairs Minister Julian Fantino with retired air force officer and first-time MP Erin O'Toole.
> 
> In a release Monday, the goverment said Fantino will remain in cabinet as associate minister for defence — the same post he held before being named international cooperation minister in 2012.
> 
> Fantino faced repeated opposition calls for his resignation or firing in the fall over his handling of the Veterans Affairs portfolio. The department has faced much criticism from some veterans because of the decision to close regional offices and for a lack of support for veterans with mental illness.
> 
> In November, the auditor general found the department was not doing enough to provide mental health services to veterans, just days after it was revealed the government had returned nearly $1 billion in lapsed funding to the treasury in recent years. Fantino was out of the country attending commemorative Second World War events as the opposition called for a response to the auditor general's report.
> 
> Fantino was roundly criticized for a testy meeting with veterans early last year and for refusing to speak with the wife of a veteran who pursued him down a hallway in Parliament.
> 
> O'Toole, who was elected to the House of Commons in Durham, east of Toronto, in a 2012 byelection, is a graduate of Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont., and served in the Royal Canadian Air Force until 2000. He also has a law degree from Dalhousie University.
> 
> Since 2013, O'Toole has served as parliamentary secretary to International Trade Minister Ed Fast.


----------



## devil39

Fantino moved from Veterans Affairs to be replaced by Erin O'Toole.   Good riddance.  Moving back to Associate Minister National Defence.


----------



## Kat Stevens

He can't do any harm there.... :


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Good Riddance.

At least Mr O'Toole actually served. Let's see what he does to help take the stink off VA.


----------



## blackberet17

Backgrounder on the new Minister:

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2015/01/05/biographical-notes



> Erin O’Toole was first elected to the House of Commons in November 2012.
> 
> In January 2015 Mr. O’Toole was appointed Minister of Veterans Affairs.  Previously, he was appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade in September 2013.
> 
> Mr. O’Toole graduated from the Royal Military College in 1995 with a Bachelor of Arts degree (Honours) and was commissioned as an officer in the Royal Canadian Air Force. He served at the Rescue Coordination Centre in Trenton, Ontario, and as a Tactical Navigator on the Sea King helicopter in Shearwater, Nova Scotia. Following completion of his service in the regular forces, Mr. O’Toole transferred to the reserves and attended law school at Dalhousie University. He graduated in 2003 and returned to Ontario, where he practiced corporate law and litigation with two national law firms and served as in-house counsel to a large consumer goods company.
> 
> Mr. O’Toole already has an extensive record supporting our troops, past and present. He was a founder of the True Patriot Love Foundation, which has raised over $11 million for programs supporting members of the military, veterans and their families, as well as a former director of the Vimy Foundation. He also served on the Board of Governors of the Royal Military College of Canada.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Give Mr. Fantino something he's capable of doing.........umm,......err,....yikes,.....


----------



## my72jeep

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Give Mr. Fantino something he's capable of doing.........umm,......err,....yikes,.....


Put him in charge of RCMP oversight it's in his ball park, and surly he can't screw them up Any more then they are?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Give Mr. Fantino something he's capable of doing.........umm,......err,....yikes,.....


What could _possibly_ go wrong in his new duties?  >


> .... The Honourable Julian Fantino, as Associate Minister of National Defence, will support the Minister of National Defence in the areas of *arctic sovereignty, information technology security and foreign intelligence, thus continuing the Government’s efforts to defend our values and interests at home and around the world* ....


----------



## MarkOttawa

Sovereignty, software and spookery (or is that CSE software? help)--matters with which the Crusader
http://www.cdfai.org/the3dsblog/?p=630
is _au fait_.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## jollyjacktar

While I am pleased Fatino has been given the boot from VA I am less pleased he hangs on like a Hemorrhoid to defence.  I would like to see some Preparation H applied to this clingon.


----------



## The Bread Guy

It would be interesting to see how much of a difference someone like Laurie Hawn could make at VAC.  While still part of the Harper stable, he seems to be able to speak outside of regular messaging lanes to get points across.


----------



## OldSolduer

recceguy said:
			
		

> Good Riddance.
> 
> At least Mr O'Toole actually served. Let's see what he does to help take the stink off VA.



I don't think that he can do much in the short term. My belief is that there are too many bureaucrats that will use delaying tactics to stall initiatives. Mind you, with General Walt as the DM (what's his title?) that may be minimized.


----------



## ModlrMike

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I don't think that he can do much in the short term. My belief is that there are too many bureaucrats that will use delaying tactics to stall initiatives. Mind you, with General Walt as the DM (what's his title?) that may be minimized.



That's the real problem, Jim. It's easy for us to blame government, when the majority of any department's problems are with the bureaucrats.


----------



## TCM621

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> That's the real problem, Jim. It's easy for us to blame government, when the majority of any department's problems are with the bureaucrats.


I don't know when it became a rule that you had to pretend there are no problems in your department. It would be easier to give the government a pass if they said, "we have a major problem here and we are working to fix it'.  Instead they feel that they have to defend themselves and pretend they are doing a great job.  Although, at this point they have had plenty of time to implement change. If it is the bureaucracy's fault then they are unable to control their departments which is just as bad. I did not elect the associate deputy minister, just like the CDS isn't elected and the government is held accountable for problems with the CAF .


----------



## reccecrewman

recceguy said:
			
		

> Good Riddance.
> 
> At least Mr O'Toole actually served. Let's see what he does to help take the stink off VA.



I wholeheartedly concur with the first point.  Mr. Fantino did nothing but trip over himself during his stint in that position.  He never established a good rapport with Veterans and did a bang up job isolating and insulting many of them. On comment #2, it doesn't matter.  Regardless of the fact the new man in served, expect no great changes.  Why people seem to think that by virtue of the fact an individual served is going to make them a better Minister of Veterans Affairs or MND is beyond me.  If anything, military experience could prove to be more of a hindrance in such a post.  Think about it, imagine you yourself (anybody reading this with military experience) get appointed to Minister of Veterans Affairs or MND.  You know the Military, you lived it.  You would have great insight as to what you'd like to change within your Department to better serve the troops/Veterans.  However, you would go mad trying to see your visions implemented in the form of policy changes due to bureaucratic redtape and budget constraints and probably end up disillusioned pretty quickly.  First off, lets get a fact straight - no Minister of ANY Department actually has any real authority to make policy changes.  That's up to the Government.  A Minister can make all the recommendations in the world and it'll fall on deaf ears because at the end of the day, it's not their call to make. A Minister is a fall guy.  Someone for the Government to be able to clearly identify and point a finger at when things go sour.  

Fantino was a patsy.... set up for failure by the Harper Government as an expendable from Day 1.  The cuts and changes to Veterans Affairs as a Department that started up in 2012 in the form of a SERLO for VAC CSA's Canada wide were decided upon years ago - long before Fantino ever took the helm.  His own ignorance and insensitivity only damned him that much more.  The previous Minister, Steven Blaney was quietly moved over to plum assignment as Minister of Public Safety after Vic Toews retired in 2013.  Why move him from a post he had been in since 2011? Too high a profile politician for the Conservatives to see tossed to the wolves as they knew full well that there was a violent storm brewing over Veterans Affairs with the planned cuts/office closures coming in the near future. Steven Blaney became the President of the Quebec Conservative caucus following his re-election in 2008 and no way was Harper going to see him go down in flames.  Enter the bumbling, blustering Fantino, an ideal fall guy to take the heat for Veterans Affairs failures.  VAC was a tinderbox when he was appointed Minister in July 2013.... Fantino showed up with a zippo and lots of lighter fluid and took it from there.

Bottom line is, these are ex-soldiers, now turned politicians.  They have retired or moved on from their military careers and have embarked on new career paths as politicians.  Their goal(s) will be to move up the political ladder, and will make their moves accordingly.  Don't think for a second it will be different because they served.  They do what their political masters tell them to do. Period. The new man in can come in with great bravado and wonderful intentions, but have the Government come back with "Sorry, no money in the budget for your initiatives."  All I'm saying is - don't hold your breath waiting on the clouds to part and the sun to come shining down on VAC because the new Minister served.


----------



## Baz

I know I'm being anal, but... Mr O'Toole nvever served in the RCAF, as it didn't exist when he was in.

To me, it underlines that politics comes first and foremost; this government brought back the RCAF, and as long this Government is in office, the RCAF never didn't exist (double negative intended).

Not saying its a big deal, its just the way it is.


----------



## Tibbson

Given the fact its essentially a new name for the same organization he served with I don't see where it makes much of a difference.  If the report had said he served X number of years with Air Command or the Air Element I'm sure nobody would know what the report was talking about.  I'm sure we're the only ones to care enough to note the differences.


----------



## McG

The various media go-to faces have started coming out for interviews to state why this change will or will not satisfy veterans and serving members.



> Veterans, military personnel split on Erin O'Toole's cabinet appointment
> GLORIA GALLOWAY
> The Globe and Mail
> 05 Jan 2015
> 
> Erin O’Toole is possessed of qualities that Julian Fantino, his demoted Veterans Affairs predecessor, might have found useful as he repeatedly butted heads with the ex-military personnel he was appointed to serve.
> 
> Unlike Mr. Fantino, whose career was spent in policing, Mr. O’Toole was a helicopter navigator in the Canadian Forces. He is the founder of an organization that supports acting members of the military, veterans and their families. He is a lawyer who understands military culture and parlance.
> 
> And he is personable – so much so that the Conservatives relied heavily upon him in the troublesome final months of Mr. Fantino’s tenure as Veterans Affairs Minister. When an MP was required to appear before the television cameras to explain the minister’s actions, Mr. O’Toole was often the man.
> 
> But that experience may prove to be inconsequential as he tries to mend the government’s tattered relationship with Canada’s veterans in the months that remain before a federal election.
> 
> “He has to change the entire way that Veterans Affairs Canada has been operated over the last year,” said Michael Blais, the president of Canadian Veterans Advocacy, which works on behalf of wounded soldiers.
> 
> “And until Mr. O’Toole demonstrates a willingness to work worth us and not against us, we will see this as no more than a change of a puppet,” Mr. Blais said. “Unless the message changes significantly, the messenger is irrelevant.”
> 
> Not all former members of the Canadian military have had to do battle with Veterans Affairs. The majority, it must be assumed, have retired and collected what they were owed without fighting a bureaucracy that is seemingly uncaring of their service.
> 
> But Auditor-General Michael Ferguson said in November that some vets are waiting months or years to access mental-health disability benefits.
> 
> That bad news was compounded by Mr. Fantino’s announcement of $200-million for veterans’ mental health that his department said would be paid out over six years but will actually be spread over decades. And there are many other irritants, including the New Veterans Charter, which many new veterans say leaves them inadequately compensated.
> 
> Some of those who have complained the loudest about Mr. Fantino see Mr. O’Toole as singing from the same song sheet as the man he replaced.
> 
> Ron Clarke, a 73-year-old retired army sergeant from Nova Scotia, was among those who confronted Mr. Fantino in Ottawa a year ago over the closing of nine Veterans Affairs offices.
> 
> “I was unfortunate enough to meet Mr. O’Toole when we were there to see Mr. Fantino,” said Mr. Clarke. “He was an arrogant, self-centred person. And I don’t think he will make any difference because we believe [Prime Minister Stephen] Harper is running the show anyway.”
> 
> But some military observers say Mr. O’Toole has the power to slough off the negatives associated with Mr. Fantino.
> 
> ...
> 
> On the other hand, he said, the Veterans Affairs bureaucracy was ponderous long before the Conservatives took power in 2006. And now it is making the very difficult transition from serving elderly veterans of the Second World War and Korea to helping a smaller number of young Afghanistan veterans who are suffering from psychological illness and debilitating physical injuries.
> 
> ...


----------



## George Wallace

As soon as I see or hear something that is from Michael Blais, I tune out.


----------



## Happy Guy

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> I wholeheartedly concur with the first point.  Mr. Fantino did nothing but trip over himself during his stint in that position.  He never established a good rapport with Veterans and did a bang up job isolating and insulting many of them. On comment #2, it doesn't matter.  Regardless of the fact the new man in served, expect no great changes.  Why people seem to think that by virtue of the fact an individual served is going to make them a better Minister of Veterans Affairs or MND is beyond me.  If anything, military experience could prove to be more of a hindrance in such a post.  Think about it, imagine you yourself (anybody reading this with military experience) get appointed to Minister of Veterans Affairs or MND.  You know the Military, you lived it.  You would have great insight as to what you'd like to change within your Department to better serve the troops/Veterans.  However, you would go mad trying to see your visions implemented in the form of policy changes due to bureaucratic redtape and budget constraints and probably end up disillusioned pretty quickly.  First off, lets get a fact straight - no Minister of ANY Department actually has any real authority to make policy changes.  That's up to the Government.  A Minister can make all the recommendations in the world and it'll fall on deaf ears because at the end of the day, it's not their call to make. A Minister is a fall guy.  Someone for the Government to be able to clearly identify and point a finger at when things go sour.
> 
> Fantino was a patsy.... set up for failure by the Harper Government as an expendable from Day 1.  The cuts and changes to Veterans Affairs as a Department that started up in 2012 in the form of a SERLO for VAC CSA's Canada wide were decided upon years ago - long before Fantino ever took the helm.  His own ignorance and insensitivity only damned him that much more.  The previous Minister, Steven Blaney was quietly moved over to plum assignment as Minister of Public Safety after Vic Toews retired in 2013.  Why move him from a post he had been in since 2011? Too high a profile politician for the Conservatives to see tossed to the wolves as they knew full well that there was a violent storm brewing over Veterans Affairs with the planned cuts/office closures coming in the near future. Steven Blaney became the President of the Quebec Conservative caucus following his re-election in 2008 and no way was Harper going to see him go down in flames.  Enter the bumbling, blustering Fantino, an ideal fall guy to take the heat for Veterans Affairs failures.  VAC was a tinderbox when he was appointed Minister in July 2013.... Fantino showed up with a zippo and lots of lighter fluid and took it from there.
> 
> Bottom line is, these are ex-soldiers, now turned politicians.  They have retired or moved on from their military careers and have embarked on new career paths as politicians.  Their goal(s) will be to move up the political ladder, and will make their moves accordingly.  Don't think for a second it will be different because they served.  They do what their political masters tell them to do. Period. The new man in can come in with great bravado and wonderful intentions, but have the Government come back with "Sorry, no money in the budget for your initiatives."  All I'm saying is - don't hold your breath waiting on the clouds to part and the sun to come shining down on VAC because the new Minister served.



To be realistic Mr. O'Toole is an inexperienced politician and a very junior cabinet minister.  It is also an election year.  He will not be able to do anything except spew the party policy lines and nothing else.  I sincerely hope that he not will be used as another patsy / fallguy but only time will tell.

My best wishes to him.


----------



## reccecrewman

Happy Guy said:
			
		

> To be realistic Mr. O'Toole is an inexperienced politician and a very junior cabinet minister.  It is also an election year.  He will not be able to do anything except spew the party policy lines and nothing else.  I sincerely hope that he not will be used as another patsy / fallguy but only time will tell.
> 
> My best wishes to him.



I don't think he is being set up.  The real damage the Government had planned on doing is done and Fantino's head has rolled.  Veterans are rejoicing because he's gone after too many gaffe's.  Enter the new guy.... A man who has served - this placates the troops and the Government is happy that the Veterans' demands for the MVA's head have abated.  Lets not forget those changes that were promised last October about changes coming to the NVC and the details on that $70,000 top up for NVC pensioners being made in the next few months. (The Government had promised they wanted all these changes implemented by the start of the new fiscal year.) Oh yeah, and it's an election year.... guaranteed there will be goodies galore in the budget for Veterans to sway them into voting these monkeys back into power this fall.  No, I believe Mr. O'Toole's selection to this post was a carefully orchestrated play by the Conservatives.  Install an ex-serviceman into this post, then come out with some treats for Veterans in the 2015 budget as well as those promised changes to the NVC and get the Veterans (and their voting family members) back on the Conservatives side in time for fall election.  Time will tell though...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Only problem with your theory is that the most vocal vets see right through the smoke screen and will continue to be as vocal.


----------



## Occam

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As soon as I see or hear something that is from Michael Blais, I tune out.



Funny, I get the same feeling when I hear blather about the Royal Canadian Legion.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Occam said:
			
		

> Funny, I get the same feeling when I hear blather about the Royal Canadian Legion.



Funny, I get the same feeling when I hear blather about from the Royal Canadian Legion.

TFTFY  8)


----------



## Occam

Thank you, that's more along the lines of what I meant.  Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever seen a member of the RCL Dominion executive speaking before a camera.  I did stumble across a press release by accident once, where the RCL expressed "disappointment" with the government's response to the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs (ACVA).

Heaven forbid the RCL publicly express "dissatisfaction" or even "mild perturbation".  







Edit to add:  To keep this on topic, this is the RCL's response to Fantino being removed from his post:

_The Royal Canadian Legion, which represents veterans and boasts 300,000 members, welcomed the appointment of O'Toole, saying in a release it hoped the change would bring "better action" to the issues facing veterans.

"This is a political move and we will not concern ourselves with the reasons behind it," Tom Eagles, Dominion president of the legion, said in a release._

More powerful words were never spoken.


----------



## reccecrewman

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Only problem with your theory is that the most vocal vets see right through the smoke screen and will continue to be as vocal.



You would think so wouldn't you? It seems so blatantly obvious, yet after witnessing Ontario voters re-install Wynne a few months past, I'm not so sure.  I hope for everyones sake, you're right - all I can control is my one vote and it certainly isn't going to the Cons.


----------



## George Wallace

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> - all I can control is my one vote and it certainly isn't going to the Cons.



I would never say something like that.  I am not sure that any of the Opposition Parties actually have any intention to improve upon VAC, and wasting a vote on a fringe Party is just that, a wasted vote, that will result in no change and only a temporary "Feel Good Feeling" for you.  Make your vote count, even if it is for the "lesser evil" getting into power, if you want any chance of effecting change.  

It never ceases to amaze me that people will vote for an Independent, a Party that does not have a large national support base, or spoil their ballot in protest; and then expect the Government to effect changes that they want.


----------



## Strike

I also agree that it was a carefully laid plan to put Mr. O'Toole into that position, and not to act as a fall guy for bad news.  He's very close with Brian MacDonald, having graduated from RMC the same year.  For those who don't know him, Mr. MacDonald is the MP for Fredericton and was the policy advisor for MacKay when he was MND.  Both these men are going places as far as I can see.  I know I'm biased, as they are both good friends, but I've had the opportunity to work with both of them as politicians and am very pleased with how they've done.


----------



## reccecrewman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I would never say something like that.  I am not sure that any of the Opposition Parties actually have any intention to improve upon VAC, and wasting a vote on a fringe Party is just that, a wasted vote, that will result in no change and only a temporary "Feel Good Feeling" for you.  Make your vote count, even if it is for the "lesser evil" getting into power, if you want any chance of effecting change.



I won't be 'wasting' it with a vote for some fringe party that has no hope of actually getting in power.  I have no problem stating my Federal vote is going Liberal.  By no means do I think Trudeau is any type of spectacular politician, but I accept that the Federal Government of Canada will be either Conservative or Liberal.  So, the simple fact that the Conservatives have been in power for nearly 9 years and now with a majority, Harper feels he can do whatever the **** he wants, it's time for him to go.  I'm a lifelong Conservative voter, and this will be my first time not voting Conservative, but like you said, voting for some fringe party is a wasted vote.  So I'll vote Liberal and those crooks screw me for 4 years.  It doesn't matter whose in power - the taxpayers are getting screwed either way.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It never ceases to amaze me that people will vote for an Independent, a Party that does not have a large national support base, or spoil their ballot in protest; and then expect the Government to effect changes that they want.


While that frustrates me as well, and I agree a vote for a team that _might_ do something is always better than one for a team that probably won't _ever_ do something, the last time I heard, the winning MP is supposed to go to bat for everyone in the riding, not just those who voted for him/her.

Sad to say, if you're voting on vets' issues alone, we've seen how the Conservatives have run things, and we've seen SFA of substance from the other two parties about what they'd do to this point, so it's "a hold your nose and pick one" vote.


----------



## George Wallace

I am not saying what way I am going to vote, until such time as I can make an 'informed' decision (as much as that may be).  The campaigning has yet to begin, so I have no idea what promises any of the Parties intend on making. 

Perhaps some day we can see some of these promises kept.   :-\


----------



## Danjanou

No guarantee that he would be the  Minister if the Liberals were to win but here is their present Veterans Affairs critic. It may be worth checking on what if any his opinions are. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Valeriote


----------



## Remius

Now that some of the dust is settling I think that there is an opportunity for the Governement to reset its relationship with the Veteran community.  A large part of Fantino's problem is that he really could not communicate well and had no clue how to deal with people and individuals.   I think that Minister O'Toole is better spoken and will likely be somewhat more receptive that Fantino appeared to be.  People were outraged with how Fantiono dealt with Ms. Mignon and vets etc etc.  I think that Mr. O'toole will avoid situations like that and handle them better. 

However, there is a risk that if this is just smoke and mirrors and things don't improve that good people will have their reputations and legacies tarnished (Walt fo example).  as well any argument that a former member/veteran is better than a non veteran serving in those roles will be quashed as well.

We'll see what the year brings.


----------



## X Royal

I don't expect any change other than the face behind the shovel of shit.
Harper does not see himself as the leader of his party & PM but as the supreme commander.
Any minister of his is going to dance to and sing the exact tune he calls for.
Perfect example of micromanagement.
When the heat gets too hot they are moved and Harper tries to distance himself from the mess he created.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I will spell this out once again folks..............that's PM, or Mr. Harper.............Mr. Trudeau..........Mr. Mulclair,...etc...

This site will not turn into some shitpile of disrespect, govern yourselves accordingly.

Bruce
army.ca staff


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps some day we can see some of these promises kept.   :-\


I dare to dream with you, GW.


----------



## blackberet17

Further background on the new Minister:

http://www.thewhig.com/2015/01/06/just-the-beginning-for-him



> In 25 years as a political geography professor at the Royal Military College, Lubomyr Luciuk said only a handful of students stand out in his memory.
> 
> Luciuk said he can't remember if he taught Erin O'Toole or if he hung out with cadets in his class. Either way, he remembered O'Toole.
> 
> "Erin stood out," Luciuk said Tuesday afternoon. "There were a few, he's not the only one. There were a dozen over those 25 years that I just had this feeling were going to go really far. Erin was one of them."
> 
> On Monday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper appointed O'Toole minister of veterans affairs, replacing Julian Fantino. O'Toole was first elected in the 2012 byelection held after the resignation of Bev Oda.
> 
> "No surprise," Luciuk said, "This is just the beginning for him. This is a young man who has a good, strong career ahead of him in federal politics."
> 
> Luciuk said he remembered O'Toole as a keen, intelligent and good-humoured student who came out of high school in Bowmanville wanting to go to RMC and have a military career.
> 
> Such a clear vision was unusual among freshman cadets, Luciuk said.
> 
> O'Toole graduated from RMC in 1995 with a bachelor of arts and was commissioned as an officer in the air force.
> 
> He served 12 years, first at the Rescue Coordination Centre on search and rescue operations with 8 Wing at CFB Trenton, then with 17 Wing in Winnipeg, where he completed his training as an air navigator.
> 
> He received his wings and was posted to 12 Wing in Shearwater, N.S., in 1997. He flew with 423 Squadron as a tactical navigator on the Sea King helicopter, conducting anti-submarine, maritime surveillance, search and rescue and naval support operations. O'Toole sailed as part of the air detachment aboard the frigate HMCS St. John's.
> 
> While with 12 Wing was promoted to captain and during that posting he and his crew received the Sikorsky Helicopter Rescue Award for the rescue of an injured fisherman at sea.
> 
> After leaving the regular forces in 2000, he transferred to the reserves and studied law at Dalhousie University.
> 
> He graduated in 2003 and after being called to the bar in Ontario worked mainly in corporate law.
> 
> While his enthusiasm and commitment to veterans issues is apparent, Luciuk said he thinks O'Toole will excel in his new portfolio.
> 
> O'Toole is a member of the Royal Canadian Legion and has done extensive charitable work.
> 
> He was a director of the Vimy Foundation and is part of that group's 2017 -- Century of Vimy campaign team.
> 
> In 2009, he was one of the founders of the True Patriot Love Foundation, which has raised millions for programs that help veterans and their families.
> 
> "To do that, demonstrates who he is. The fact that he may have to make some hard choices is what he was trained for at RMC," Luciuk said.
> 
> "He's an officer and he may have to make decisions that are not ones that he will be happy with but have to be made because those are the fiscal, economic, political realities of our time."


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good thing the CDS is Air Force too then. Right?


----------



## GK .Dundas

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Good thing the CDS is Air Force too then. Right?


 It should be alright so long as the Minister remembers that he is no longer required to salute the CDS.


----------



## JS2218

Danjanou said:
			
		

> No guarantee that he would be the  Minister if the Liberals were to win but here is their present Veterans Affairs critic. It may be worth checking on what if any his opinions are.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Valeriote



*Shudder*

The only MP to be fined for illegal robocalls. No thanks!


----------



## Strike

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> It should be alright so long as the Minister remembers that he is no longer required to salute the CDS.



Both Minister O'Toole and the CAF Chief served together in Shearwater.  Here's hoping that, with the Minster having so many friends with whom he still associates as veterans or who are still serving, that he will take the job much more personally than it seems Mr. Fantino did.


----------



## upandatom

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I would never say something like that.  I am not sure that any of the Opposition Parties actually have any intention to improve upon VAC, and wasting a vote on a fringe Party is just that, a wasted vote, that will result in no change and only a temporary "Feel Good Feeling" for you.  Make your vote count, even if it is for the "lesser evil" getting into power, if you want any chance of effecting change.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me that people will vote for an Independent, a Party that does not have a large national support base, or spoil their ballot in protest; and then expect the Government to effect changes that they want.



Voting for a lesser evil just shows the disgusting state of Canadian Politics. There are ways to formally oppose the vote, When voting you request a non vote card. Which in turn if enough people used that option it would spoil the election, send a very strong message. However as Canadians we will continue to take our lickings via over taxation and monopolization of various sectors of industry causing eye gouging rates compared to the rest of the world.


----------



## George Wallace

upandatom said:
			
		

> Voting for a lesser evil just shows the disgusting state of Canadian Politics. There are ways to formally oppose the vote, When voting you request a non vote card. Which in turn if enough people used that option it would spoil the election, send a very strong message. However as Canadians we will continue to take our lickings via over taxation and monopolization of various sectors of industry causing eye gouging rates compared to the rest of the world.



And as I said; spoiling a vote is not accomplishing anything, but feel free to give yourself an instant of self gratification.  You will not have accomplished anything.  In fact, what you really are condoning is the continued poor governance of the country, by not taking positive measures to elect representatives to affect the changes necessary.  Spoiling a ballot is tacit approval of whomever is elected.


----------



## Remius

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And as I said; spoiling a vote is not accomplishing anything, but feel free to give yourself an instant of self gratification.  You will not have accomplished anything.  In fact, what you really are condoning is the continued poor governance of the country, by not taking positive measures to elect representatives to affect the changes necessary.  Spoiling a ballot is tacit approval of whomever is elected.



Many would disagree with that opinion.  A spoiled vote can be viewed as a protest vote.  Dissatisfaction at  the candidates or what not.  You are still participating in the electoral process and if there are enough spoiled ballots it can send a strong message.  Not participating at a all in the process, while may seem like a protest vote, is more of a tacit approval or acceptance of whoever wins.


----------



## Gimpy

Crantor said:
			
		

> Many would disagree with that opinion.  A spoiled vote can be viewed as a protest vote.  Dissatisfaction at  the candidates or what not.  You are still participating in the electoral process and if there are enough spoiled ballots it can send a strong message.  Not participating at a all in the process, while may seem like a protest vote, is more of a tacit approval or acceptance of whoever wins.



Many would be misinformed then. A spoiled vote is not a protest vote. Under the current Elections Canada system it is a wasted vote. They aren't treated like a proper ballot and counted as a rejected ballot without differentiation between someone who intentionally messed it up and someone who accidentally marked two boxes or some other typographical/paper error. The way to actually protest would be to refuse your ballot which is counted as a distinct category and something that cannot be misinterpreted. Unfortunately, this can only currently be done at the provincial level (only within several provinces at the moment) and federally they would fall into the same spoiled vote category.

While a spoiled ballot might be done as a protest, it would not be seen as one in official reference and as such, is meaningless in federal elections.


----------



## The Bread Guy

New Minister shuts out one group ....


> Newly-appointed Veterans Affairs Minister Erin O’Toole has informed an advocacy group for wounded and psychologically injured veterans that it is no longer a stakeholder adviser to the Veterans Affairs department.
> 
> Mike Blais, who helped launch Canadian Veterans Advocacy in 2011 to advocate for veterans and serving Canadian Forces members who did combat tours in Afghanistan and their families, told The Hill Times that Mr. O’Toole (Durham, Ont.) gave the bad news to the group in a voicemail he left on Mr. Blais’ phone service Jan. 7.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Last June, Mr. O’Toole said in the House of Commons that Canadian Veterans Advocacy is run out of the Parliamentary office of NDP MP Peter Stoffer (Sackville-Eastern Shore, N.S.).
> 
> “As a veteran myself, I have been quite offended by some of the work that group does. It is not sincere. It is not based on sound policy. I understand, at committee, that they have acknowledged that their funding has come from unions,” Mr. O’Toole said on June 2.
> 
> Mr. O’Toole’s message said Mr. Blais should know how the minister feels about the CVA, Mr. Blais told The Hill Times.
> 
> “He’s always tried to label us as a union plant,’’ Mr. Blais said in a telephone interview last Thursday ....


----------



## PuckChaser

Good. I don't think we've lost a sane voice anyways.


----------



## Occam

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Good. I don't think we've lost a sane voice anyways.



On the contrary, they've been at the table for the last three years and two VAC ministers, with nobody making a complaint.  As I said before - when was the last time you saw a Legion exec in front of a camera?  Minister O'Toole doesn't want the CVA at the table because they do an exceptional job of exposing the shortcomings of VAC, while the Royal Canadian Legion plays the quiet but ineffective lapdog.


----------



## The Bread Guy

More changes next to the Minister ....


> The Harper government’s efforts to rebuild bridges with veterans appeared to ramp up Monday as newly appointed minister Erin O’Toole recruited an experienced political hand as his top adviser.
> 
> The Canadian Press has learned that longtime Conservative John MacDonell was appointed as the new chief of staff in O’Toole’s office following the cabinet shuffle last week that booted Julian Fantino from the portfolio.
> 
> In an interview, O’Toole himself confirmed the appointment. He said he’s working to surround himself with advisers who are already familiar with the concerns of modern-day veterans.
> 
> “My goal has been to get a smart team that understands the issues and that can move quickly,” O’Toole said.
> 
> MacDonell served for six years as chief of staff to former defence minister Peter MacKay and also worked closely with retired general Walt Natynczyk, who is now the top bureaucrat at the veterans department ....



More on the new Chief of Staff here at LinkedIn here.

Let's see what this new trio (Minister, COS, DM) can get done, then.


----------



## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> More changes next to the Minister ....
> More on the new Chief of Staff here at LinkedIn here.
> 
> Let's see what this new trio (Minister, COS, DM) can get done, then.



It seems progress may be made. Watch and shoot!


----------



## Danjanou

JS2218 said:
			
		

> *Shudder*
> 
> The only MP to be fined for illegal robocalls. No thanks!



Yeah,  maybe shows how seriously that particular party takes Veterans issues, based on whom they assigned to the file. :



			
				Occam said:
			
		

> On the contrary, they've been at the table for the last three years and two VAC ministers, with nobody making a complaint.  As I said before - when was the last time you saw a Legion exec in front of a camera?  Minister O'Toole doesn't want the CVA at the table because they do an exceptional job of exposing the shortcomings of VAC, while the Royal Canadian Legion plays the quiet but ineffective lapdog.



What colour is the sky in your world?

Blais and his fellow travelers are at best a bunch of rabid fringe dwellers, spouting nothing but political rhetoric and unwilling to listen or even consider any other points of view. Go on their webs site and/or FB page and dare to disagree with Saint Michael of the Soundbite and see how long before they bully, insult, threaten, and then ban you. They do not represent this Veteran, and until they start acting like responsible adults not spoiled preschoolers throwing public temper tantrums, they never will.

No elected repetition, no official membership list, nothing but apparently a self appointed  and possibly delusional  advocate who embarrasses us all. 

They serve a set purpose to the opposition parties, PSAC and others who are against the present GOC because they are more than willing to publically say whatever those groups want. The Santa Clause stunt by one of their "Directors" being the latest in a long line of ineffective, petty and juvenile acts that in no way promote our issues. 

After spending time gleefully claiming that they and they alone were responsible for Fantino's departure on their FB site they then proceeded to insult the incoming Minister before he probably had picked up the keys to his new office, and long before the "voice mail" Mikey is moaning about, which when actually listened to apparently is not quite what the CVA were saying was on it. 

Full disclosure, I'm an RCL Member. Yes there are issues in the RCL from the top down to the individual branches. That's why I'm still there, because there is still a chance it can be fixed, and become an effective and rational advocate for all Veterans. I and any other Veteran get the opportunity to try and make that change, or not, should we choose to. That is not how the CVA operates.


----------



## Strike

Here's another article in the "Hill, which includes a transcript of the message.  It's pretty obvious that Mr. Blais was grandstanding (Quel surprise!).

http://www.hilltimes.com/news/news/2015/01/14/otooles-office-continues-to-avoid-answering-whether-canadian-veterans-advocacy-cut/40715

I can't help but wonder why Mr. Blais would not want to have some type of registry and have a voting membership.  You don't have to charge dues with that and can have all votes done online now anyway, keeping costs low.  It's a quote in another article (linked in the main one) that makes me really question his motives:



> "They [The RCL] raise money. They charge a membership. And for that they should have an organization to ensure the money is spent as it is (meant to be)," Blais said. "We do not have members for that very reason, 'cause I don't believe in charging wounded veterans to help them."



Glad he added the caveat at the end of the quote, because I would wonder where that money is going.

And as for the Minister's worries about CVA working out of an NDP MP's office, I would worry about that too.  No charitable organization should have a political affiliation as far as I'm concerned.  I know that most do, but they certainly don't make it show as overtly as the CVA does IMHO.



> O'Toole denies cutting ties with veterans' group, says he will 'consult wider,' but continues to avoid answering whether CVA cut off from Veterans Affairs Canada Stakeholder Committee
> 
> "Minister O'Toole intends to consult wider and reach out to veterans from all segments of the veterans community," says Veterans Affairs Minister Erin O'Toole's staffer
> 
> By TIM NAUMETZ |
> Published: Wednesday, 01/14/2015 10:46 am EST
> Last Updated: Wednesday, 01/14/2015 12:18 pm EST
> 
> 
> PARLIAMENT HILL—An aide to Veterans Affairs Minister Erin O’Toole said Tuesday Mr. O’Toole intends to consult “wider” than just with a Veterans Affairs department stakeholder committee in his new post, but Mr. O’Toole and his office continued to avoid a direct response to claims from the outspoken Canadian Veterans Advocacy group that he told the group’s director his organization had to conform to the norms of veteran associations like the Canadian Legion to remain on the committee.
> 
> On Monday, The Hill Times reported that Mr. O'Toole had informed Canadian Veterans Advocacy founder Mike Blais by voice mail that his group would no longer be a stakeholder adviser to Veterans Affairs Canada. But after The Hill Times obtained the message, it's clear Mr. O'Toole (Durham, Ont.) suggests that Mr. Blais run the Canadian Veterans' Advocacy more like the Royal Canadian Legion or other larger groups. But Mr. O'Toole does not clearly say that he will cut ties with the advocacy group for wounded and psychologically injured veterans. However, Mr. O'Toole does suggest the Canadian Veterans' Advocacy restructure its group.
> 
> A spokesperson for Mr. O’Toole (Durham, Ont.) suggested in emails to questions from The Hill Times that Mr. O’Toole is considering other forms of formal veteran advisory discussions outside the stakeholder committee that former Veterans Affairs minister Steven Blaney (Levi-Bellechasse, Que.) set up in 2012.
> 
> “Minister O'Toole intends to consult wider and reach out to veterans from all segments of the veterans community,” media adviser Kayleigh Kanoza said. “This may at one point take the form of structured meetings or round tables, in addition to direct consultations by the minister or his office with veterans and their families.”
> 
> In a separate response to questions on the controversy sparked by Mr. Blais' cliam that Mr. O’Toole was cutting the group from the Veterans Affairs Canada Stakeholder Committee unless it changed its organization’s rules and structure, Ms. Kanoza did not answer the question directly, but said Mr. O’Toole considers all veterans groups to be stakeholders in Veterans Affairs.
> 
> “In just over a week, Minister O’Toole has consulted with dozens of veterans from across Canada, including reaching out to Mr. Blais. Our government understands that the veterans community is diverse and as such, considers all groups as stakeholders, including Mr. Blais’,” Ms. Kanoza said in emails to The Hill Times and at least one other news site, The Tyee.
> 
> In the aftermath of an initial Hill Times report on Monday quoting Mr. Blais’ allegations that Mr. O’Toole had cut his group out of participation on the committee—through comments he left on Mr. Blais’ voice mail two days after he was sworn in as the new Veterans Affairs minister—Mr. O’Toole has defended himself on Twitter by saying “no one is cut off” and “1st week as MVA involved reaching out to many different organizations & diverse veteran voices. This will continue to be my approach.”
> 
> His press secretary, Ashlee Smith, at one point asked The Hill Times if it intended to retract its initial report about Mr. Blais’ view of Mr. O’Toole’s voice mail, but a digital copy of a recording his office made of his comments when he left the voice mail show that Mr. O’Toole informed Mr. Blais of his longstanding objections to the organization of his advocacy group, a federally registered non-profit organization, and set out the manner in which he wants members of the group to arrange their internal affairs.
> 
> “As you know, my position with respect to Canadian Veterans Advocacy hasn’t changed from the first time you and I spoke and I think we actually have a decent relationship, but I want groups that are, you know, truly non-profit paternal organizations that have bylaws, that have boards of directors, that have votes and they have annual general meetings, not just a Facebook page,” he said in the voice mail.
> 
> “So I’d like to hear your plan on becoming that, like a Legion or an ANAVATS or a UN-NATO or something where the members have a lot of say on direction of policy,” Mr. O’Toole said in the voice mail.
> 
> Mr. O’Toole was referring to the Royal Canadian Legion, the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans in Canada and the Veterans UN-NATO Canada organizations, all of which are on a Veterans Affairs Canada list of the Stakeholder Committee members in January, 2012.
> 
> The list includes Canadian Veterans Advocacy and VeteransofCanada.ca, whose director, Don Leonardo, told The Hill Times on Monday that the group was not invited to a Stakeholders Committee meeting Mr. Fantino convened in the Citadel Hotel in Quebec City last November and that he also has been excluded from the committee. Former Veterans minister Julian Fantino (Vaughan, Ont.) had at least two meetings with the Stakeholders Committee during his year and a half as the minister. He also had at least one controversial clash with veterans who had arranged to meet him on Parliament Hill and other standoffs with Mr. Blais and other outspoken critics of the way Veterans Affairs Canada has dealt with physically and psychologically wounded vets of the Afghanistan War.
> 
> Mr. Blais could not be reached on Tuesday, and his telephone voice mail was full. Mr. O’Toole was appointed the Veterans Affairs minister on Jan. 5. The next day, he tweeted: “After some initial meetings I spent my 1st day as MVA calling & listening to leading veterans organizations starting with the @RCL_DC [Royal Canadian Legion].” Canadian Veterans Advocacy replied, publicly tweeting Mr. Blais’ phone number. Mr. O’Toole called Mr. Blais on Jan. 7 and left a voice mail message when he was unable to reach him on his cell phone.
> 
> “I was not home and he left a brief message, that was kind of circumvented because he ran out of time, but nevertheless in essence he said, ‘Well, you know how I feel about the CVA, it’s the same as the last three years, I have not changed my position, if you want to change your organization, more like the Legion where we have members and we have votes and all this stuff,’” Mr. Blais said.
> 
> “Well we’re not the legion. We’re an advocacy [group] and we have conformed to every non-profit regulation that the Harper government has put into effect since 2012,” he said. “He’s dis-included us from the stakeholder’s table because of our so-called union ties,” Mr. Blais said, referring to a comment Mr. O’Toole made in the House on June 2, 2014.
> 
> Responding to NDP MP Dennis Bevington (Western Arctic, N.W.T.) about the Rock the Hill event, Mr. O’Toole said: “As the member may know, it is organized by Canadian Veterans Advocacy. He is asking why are we not having this debate when they are here. I would invite the member to just walk across the hall in the Confederation Building and meet with Canadian Veterans Advocacy, who work out of the member for Sackville-Eastern-Shore’s [NDP MP Peter Stoffer] office. As a veteran myself, I have been quite offended by some of the work that group does. It is not sincere. It is not based on sound policy. I understand, at committee, that they have acknowledged that their funding has come from unions.”


----------



## Occam

Opinions vary, I guess.  I've watched a lot of the non-traditional veterans groups over the years, and I don't see any harm in allowing their voices to be heard as stakeholders.  In the end, the government's going to do what the government wants to do anyways, the only variable is whether they can convince the stakeholders as to whether their input was considered and dismissed with cause, or just simply dismissed.

Just because a group doesn't have a membership list, membership dues, an elected governance, and a street address doesn't mean that they don't have a role to fill, and don't have good ideas that be brought to the table.  I find it hard to believe that 6000+ people would join the group just to watch the director's occasional rant.  If people didn't like what they see coming from the group, the "unsubscribe" button is right there - I'm sure they'd leave.

I disagree on the grandstanding comment.  Mr. O'Toole is a lawyer, and I've never met a lawyer who didn't choose his words very carefully.  The article refers to Mr. O'Toole's past public commentary on the group, some of which is blatantly untruthful, some is twisting the truth, and very little is truthful.  To suggest that Mr. Blais would work out of Mr. Stoffer's office, or that Mr. Stoffer would permit Mr. Blais to do so, is ludicrous.  PSAC donated a sum of money ($2000, if I recall correctly) to the advocacy group to permit Union of Veterans Affairs Employees reps to attend a press conference on VAC office closures (again, if I recall correctly).  All of a sudden, the group has "union ties".  I listened to the voice message Mr. O'Toole left, and within the context of the past history he's had with the group, as well as the past history with Mr. Leonardo's group, I would have come to the same conclusion as Mr. Blais.  Mr. O'Toole doesn't seem to be in any rush to clarify exactly what he meant on the message, that's for sure.

I don't agree with everything they say, but I can and have disagreed with people and not been run out of town, so to speak.  I'm not sure where my loyalties lie right now, but I can still say I won't be gracing the Legion with my presence anytime soon.


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## jollyjacktar

I had a "let's welcome the new guy to DND" etc etc, mass email from the puzzle palace today.  Deleted it without reading more than a line or two.   :


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## Scoobie Newbie

Read more then me


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## JS2218

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> New Minister shuts out one group ....



Which has since been found out to be a complete fabrication. The actual voice mail message is now public and the Minister said no such thing about "cutting off" the CVA (although he should have).


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## Strike

Occam said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe that 6000+ people would join the group just to watch the director's occasional rant.  If people didn't like what they see coming from the group, the "unsubscribe" button is right there - I'm sure they'd leave.



Ever heard of the Food Babe?  Read her stuff and look at how many likes she has, then tell me +6,000 people haven't drunk the cool aid.

https://www.facebook.com/thefoodbabe?ref=ts&fref=ts

Enjoy!  It can be a pretty entertaining page!


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## The Bread Guy

This from PMO - VAC has a new Parliamentary Secretary (PS) ....


> .... Parm Gill, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs, becomes Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Trade.
> 
> (....)
> 
> *Pierre Lemieux*, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture, becomes Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs ....



More on the new VAC PS here:


> .... Pierre Lemieux
> 
> Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs
> 
> Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, Ontario
> 
> Mr. Lemieux was first elected to the House of Commons in 2006 and re-elected in 2008 and 2011. He was appointed Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs in January 2015. Previously, he was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Parliamentary Secretary for Official Languages.
> 
> *Mr. Lemieux began his career as an officer cadet in the Canadian Armed Forces where he served for 20 years before retiring at the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel.* He is also a professional engineer and is certified with the Project Management Institute. After working as a manager in the high-tech sector, he started his own company, offering project management and consulting services.
> 
> Mr. Lemieux is married and has five children.



New Minister with military experience?  Check.
New PS with military experience?  Check.
(Reasonably) New DM with military experience?  Check.

Let's see how much change'll happen between now and the next federal election election.


----------



## Occam

I'll constrain my comment to dealing with Mr. Lemieux as being my MP for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.  Woefully underwhelmed would be kind.  Expect it to be painted red next time around.


----------



## Danjanou

Strike said:
			
		

> I can't help but wonder why Mr. Blais would not want to have some type of registry and have a voting membership.  You don't have to charge dues with that and can have all votes done online now anyway, keeping costs low.  It's a quote in another article (linked in the main one) that makes me really question his motives:



Simple answer. There is a chance that the CVA membership would then decide that they've had enough of his counter productive  grandstanding  and ranting and toss him and his self appointed executive out and replace them with someone else who may actually garner some respect from all the other parties involved.


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## OldSolduer

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Simple answer. There is a chance that the CVA membership would then decide that they've had enough of his counter productive  grandstanding  and ranting and toss him and his self appointed executive out and replace them with someone else who may actually garner some respect from all the other parties involved.



From what I've seen of him, he tends to be a bit shrill.


----------



## X Royal

Check out this link with the usual caveats.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-spent-694k-in-legal-fight-against-veterans-1.2209816


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## Occam

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> From what I've seen of him, he tends to be a bit shrill.



How has quiet and reserved been working out for the Legion?


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## Jed

Occam said:
			
		

> How has quiet and reserved been working out for the Legion?



The problem is that we vets need to concentrate our efforts. We also need to get buy in from the people of Canada. Some of the most supportive Canadians for our cause in general are Legion members.  Strength in numbers.

Mike Blais, et al takes away from the main effort, it does not assist, it distracts.


----------



## Occam

I disagree.  For example, changing attitudes have rendered the messes increasingly unused over the years.  Like the messes, many of the more recent veterans don't find anything attractive about the RCL.  The growing following behind web-based advocacy groups has sent a message to VAC that there needs to be more than just the RCL at the table as a stakeholder.


----------



## Strike

Occam said:
			
		

> I disagree.  For example, changing attitudes have rendered the messes increasingly unused over the years.  Like the messes, many of the more recent veterans don't find anything attractive about the RCL.  The growing following behind web-based advocacy groups has sent a message to VAC that there needs to be more than just the RCL at the table as a stakeholder.



And how well did having several groups at the table help after WW1?  That's why the RCL was formed, to unify and have one voice. Seems people have forgotten that and it's going to result in too many fingers in the pot with nothing left over for the people they say they want to help.


----------



## Occam

The RCL was formed out of a legitimate need in a far different time serving a very different clientele.  They didn't have the benefit of the internet, where a single message can be broadcast to thousands of recipients in mere seconds, and news stories make the mainstream press in minutes or less.  A Legion service officer used to be the lifeline to applying for veterans benefits.  Now I can call up a website, find the references and documents I need, and file a claim online in as much time as it takes me to type it out.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I was, at one time, a member of the RCL.  I don't see myself returning to the fold anytime soon if ever.  From where I sit, the RCL have appeared to be mostly silent in the ongoing drama between wounded veterans and the DVA.  If they want to become relevant and take the lead then they need to step up, pipe up and do so.  They were trumpeting the NVC on it's inception and have been more or less silent since.  Like him or not, Mike Blais, and others like him are the only voices I hear in the wilderness and not the RCL.


----------



## Happy Guy

Occam said:
			
		

> I'll constrain my comment to dealing with Mr. Lemieux as being my MP for Glengarry-Prescott-Russell.  Woefully underwhelmed would be kind.  Expect it to be painted red next time around.


I served with Pierre years ago with 1 Svc Bn in Calgary.  He later became EA to Comd 1 CMBG, BGen Reay. 
He was at the time a well respected and competent EME Officer.
He always was an understated person.  I have no idea what he is like as a politician.  In general I don't have much respect for federal politicians as whole - I tend to regard them as parasitic spineless creatures who suck you dry, who contribute nothing to society meanwhile blowing hot air telling everyone how wonderful they are all and how hard they are working on your behalf.  I do respect municipal politicians who are at the coal face and we do see tangible results.


----------



## OldSolduer

Occam said:
			
		

> How has quiet and reserved been working out for the Legion?


X

Not well, however, there is no need to publicly humiliate people either. It just piz$$es people  of fand while you may get what YOU want, it may screw things up for others.

The shrill "get Harper" crowd will mess it up for everyone.


----------



## Strike

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> X
> 
> Not well, however, there is no need to publicly humiliate people either. It just piz$$es people  of fand while you may get what YOU want, it may screw things up for others.
> 
> The shrill "get Harper" crowd will mess it up for everyone.



Exactly. The problem with hating on the current ruling party is, should it change come election time, the problems at VAC will still be there.  They won't change overnight no matter who's in charge.  So, if a new party comes in, and things don't change quick enough, then what is CVA going to do? Hate on that party too?  That's the problem with their approach.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Get over paid by $500 and the Canadian Forces will hound you about it non-stop, threaten to charge you if you don't pay NOW and try to claw it back in one lump payment. You'll probably need a memo to ask the chain of command permission to not take one lump sum out of your pay (and have bills/checks bounce)

Get injured overseas, maybe a leg ripped off or two, and spend up to 10 years fighting with VA to get paid.


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Get over paid by $500 and the Canadian Forces will hound you about it non-stop, threaten to charge you if you don't pay NOW and try to claw it back in one lump payment. You'll probably need a memo to ask the chain of command permission to not take one lump sum out of your pay (and have bills/checks bounce)
> 
> Get injured overseas, maybe a leg ripped off or two, and spend up to 10 years fighting with VA to get paid.



We share your frustration sir, but changing political parties or hating one will not change VAC. Despite what Mr. Mulcair and Mr. Trudeau say during any campaign, you can be almost certain that VAC issues will not go away. Also, despite all parties having veterans in them as MPs will not change VAC.
The parties in opposition have not seen the balance sheet. They may think they have but we all know how finances can be.......skewed.


----------



## blackberet17

Trying to change VAC and how it does things is like trying to change CAF and how IT does things.

It takes political will; hard work; defiance in the face of resistance; persistance.

What is it folks want to change, anyway?

Scrap the NVC and go back to the Pension Act? Legislative change.

The bureaucracy? A consistent, unified voice, and someone willing to take the reins, dealing with unions, stakeholders, interest groups, politicians, and Lord knows who else.

The "System"? That otherwise nebulous entity? Good question.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Changing political parties or hating one will not change VAC.


If that's true, I guess we won't hear any complaints if the Liberals take the helm after the next election?   >

In all seriousness ....


			
				blackberet17 said:
			
		

> It takes political will; hard work; defiance in the face of resistance; persistance.  More cash.


Added one more factor for you.


----------



## upandatom

I fail too see how changing Fantino will allow for positive changes to be made. 
He was made out to be a fall guy for a system that the GoC wanted to change because of cutbacks and budgets.
How is the the new Minister going to change it. 
Not going to happen.


----------



## Strike

upandatom said:
			
		

> I fail too see how changing Fantino will allow for positive changes to be made.
> He was made out to be a fall guy for a system that the GoC wanted to change because of cutbacks and budgets.
> How is the the new Minister going to change it.
> Not going to happen.



Well, one thing the new minister has going for him is that he has many friends still serving, are former CAF or using VAC services.  I would have no problems firing off an email or PMing him if I was dealing with VAC and wanted some advice or to pass on my own experiences.  I know the rest of his former colleagues wouldn't either.


----------



## upandatom

Strike said:
			
		

> Well, one thing the new minister has going for him is that he has many friends still serving, are former CAF or using VAC services.  I would have no problems firing off an email or PMing him if I was dealing with VAC and wanted some advice or to pass on my own experiences.  I know the rest of his former colleagues wouldn't either.



I am all for using contacts to get what you want quicker or for advice. Good for those people, but those that dont have that option, like myself whose file was sent to the wrong address, and then in turn they requested the wrong med file somehow, and now the request has had to go back through.
Noone is held accountable for that mistake. All I get is we are sorry(wrong name on the paperwork from VAC requesting info) I know people make mistakes, but that ticking clock doesnt start until the Med file is in their hands(the right one), and there isnt a way to put a rush on it. I went and asked the Med Records for a copy of my med file, but no, It has to come from the Med Records Sections. 

I dont understand how what has already been made into an electronic copy- Takes 6 Months to be made available to VAC. Im new to the VAC system, all I know is what I have read, from here (alot of WTH is this SH!T) and various news reports. I know to not fully believe what is written on the VAC site, maybe the process, but not the timelines, as they will put it in the perfect scenario for the perfect case (which does not exist).

This is one of those cases I am glad i kept CF-98s and All the Chits and PPWK wrt the injuries. 

*****EDITED for this statement******
I know that there are people who have it way worse then I do with the system. If I am having this much trouble with a fairly simple case, I would hate to see the grief multiple claimants are getting.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Strike said:
			
		

> Well, one thing the new minister has going for him is that he has many friends still serving, are former CAF or using VAC services.  I would have no problems firing off an email or PMing him if I was dealing with VAC and wanted some advice or to pass on my own experiences.  I know the rest of his former colleagues wouldn't either.


Wanna bet a loonie that they would now get a canned e-mail response (unless they're _serious_ party donors)?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting way of informing a committee of the Government's response to a report ....


> The new veterans minister is under fire for posting some details of a highly anticipated progress report on improving the treatment of ex-soldiers on Twitter and Facebook even before MPs and the wider veterans community had a chance to see it.
> 
> The update is seen as the first significant political test for Erin O'Toole, who replaced the embattled Julian Fantino last month, but the report did not arrive well after the close of business Friday night, missing a deadline imposed by a parliamentary committee.
> 
> The six-page letter was tabled Monday, but is in limbo because the Commons veterans affairs committee does not have a chairman to receive it.
> 
> O'Toole posted an info graphic on social media over the weekend, which apparently tracks the government's progress in implementing changes to legislation and benefits proposed by the veterans committee ....



So far, the RC Legion is underwhelmed (take that with whatever size of grain of salt you see fit)


----------



## The Bread Guy

And here's what the Veterans Ombudsman has to say about responding to a Parliamentary committee via Twitter:


> Late on January 30th, 2015, the Minister of Veterans Affairs provided an update to the Chair of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs (ACVA) on the progress made to date by Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) to address the 14 recommendations from the Committee’s June 2014 report, The New Veterans Charter: Moving Forward.
> 
> While I am satisfied that progress is being made in areas such as improving transition support and processes, counseling and training, research and access to family services, I’m disappointed that the update provides no details on how the substantive deficiencies with the New Veterans Charter (NVC) are to be addressed.
> 
> As I have said before, the five priorities that need to be fixed to ensure that the NVC properly supports Veterans and their families are:
> 
> Financial Security after age 65,
> Better access to allowances for those with the greatest need,
> Income support equity for Veterans who served as reservists,
> Better support for families, and
> Improved income support during rehabilitation and transition.
> 
> I acknowledge that these substantive issues are complex by nature, but we’re not starting from scratch. Much research has been done and many reports have focussed on them. Now VAC needs to act. Further consultation is not needed.
> 
> Our ill and injured Veterans and their families have been waiting a long time for such action. Their expectations were high that the Government’s update would signal some tangible commitment on these key substantive issues. But, such was not the case. Like many of them, I am disappointed because all we have received are vague assurances that something is going to happen.
> 
> I certainly give the new Minister of Veterans Affairs, the Hon. Erin O’Toole, the benefit of the doubt at this moment. He has stated that under his leadership "every part of Veterans Affairs has to be Veteran-focussed and Veteran-centric" – and I agree with him on that. But, it’s time to start sharing with the Veterans’ community how they are going to solve the deficiencies of the NVC…and when.
> 
> Not every solution to these substantive issues has to be tied to Budget 2015. Some of the solutions to NVC shortcomings could be rolled out incrementally.
> 
> The Government has had for well over a year the facts and figures necessary to chart the way ahead. It has the ability to take immediate and definitive action.
> 
> Let’s get it done!


----------



## blackberet17

JS2218 said:
			
		

> I'm curious why you believe this. Following the terrorist attacks in St Jean and Ottawa, the Legion refused to distribute poppies before the already-established lead-up to Remembrance Day. In my opinion, this was an opportunity for the Legion to demonstrate that it stood behind our veterans - past and present - and yes, get a bit of a fundraising boost by distributing the poppies early. By refusing to hand out the poppies to comemmorate WO Vincent and Cpl Cirillo, the Legion demonstrated just how out of touch it was with present-day veterans *and* with Canadians who wanted an opportunity to show their support for the military and veterans as a whole.



The poppy is an international symbol of Remembrance, to commemorate all those killed in all conflicts since 1914 - not to commemorate the deaths of two individuals.

I am by no means diminishing in any way the tragic deaths of WO Vincent and Cpl Cirillo by saying as much.

And if you read the rest of the article, it did note poppies would be made available to those wanting them, and some branches made them available "immediately".

Anybody know if this "demand" for early poppy release was a story outside the GTA/NCR?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Wanna bet a loonie that they would now get a canned e-mail response (unless they're _serious_ party donors)?



I save their donor envelopes to send letters aback to them, that generally generates a response.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> I save their donor envelopes to send letters aback to them, that generally generates a response.


Good one - still, if I don't get the donation request, no envelope and no straight answer for me


----------

