# Enfield rifle drill question from old CAMT 2-2



## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

Working from a re-printed copy of portions of the CAMT 2-2 from 1951, there does not appear to be any instruction on going from the Reverse Arms to the Present. 
Instead the re-print only describes how to go from the Reverse to Rest on your arms reversed, and from the Reverse to the Trail.

If anyone has access to the full CAMT 2-2, I'd really  appreciate either (a) confirmation that the manual does not set out how to go from the Reverse to the Present, or (b) if it does, a brief description of how to perform the movement. 

Thanks for whatever assistance can be provided.


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## jpjohnsn (15 Jan 2014)

myself.only said:
			
		

> Working from a re-printed copy of portions of the CAMT 2-2 from 1951, there does not appear to be any instruction on going from the Reverse Arms to the Present.
> Instead the re-print only describes how to go from the Reverse to Rest on your arms reversed, and from the Reverse to the Trail.
> 
> If anyone has access to the full CAMT 2-2, I'd really  appreciate either (a) confirmation that the manual does not set out how to go from the Reverse to the Present, or (b) if it does, a brief description of how to perform the movement.
> ...


I don't have a CAMT 2-2 but I do have a copy of the RCAF's CAP 90 if that helps.


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## ArmyGuy99 (15 Jan 2014)

Try some of the older Army Cadet Corps that are affiliated with Infantry Batalions.  Army Cadets are still doing drill with the Enfield (I believe) and should have a copy of the drill manual.  I know mine did, way too many moons ago, the damn thing was a 6" thick binder if I reminder correct.

Perhaps, posting this in the Cadet Forums?  I have one other place to check as well.  Gotta love the old boys network  :nod:

Get back to you later today hopefully.


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> I don't have a CAMT 2-2 but I do have a copy of the RCAF's CAP 90 if that helps.



Sure JP, if the RCAF's pub has a Reverse to the Present for the Enfield at least then it'll be something to bring up.

Thanks!


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Try some of the older Army Cadet Corps that are affiliated with Infantry Batalions.  Army Cadets are still doing drill with the Enfield (I believe) and should have a copy of the drill manual.  I know mine did, way too many moons ago, the damn thing was a 6" thick binder if I reminder correct.
> 
> Perhaps, posting this in the Cadet Forums?  I have one other place to check as well.  Gotta love the old boys network  :nod:
> 
> Get back to you later today hopefully.



MT

With the tendency for (a) Corps to locally institutionalize formerly ad hoc solutions and (b) old manuals to grow legs with instructor turnover, I'm hoping that I'll have some luck with that old boys network and somebody will have the actual pub gathering dust somewhere. 

But I will appreciate whatever assistance can come my way.  
Thanks!


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## jpjohnsn (15 Jan 2014)

myself.only said:
			
		

> Sure JP, if the RCAF's pub has a Reverse to the Present for the Enfield at least then it'll be something to bring up.
> 
> Thanks!



PM to come.  Also, if this is for a cadet corps, the Sea Cadet Manual of Drill and Ceremonial (available all over the place) is, much to my horror, the tri-service cadet standard these days.


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## Armynewsguy (15 Jan 2014)

This should work for you.

http://www.bellevillearmycadets.com/doors/training-library/Lee%20Enfield%20Rifle%20Drill.pdf


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> PM to come.  Also, if this is for a cadet corps, the Sea Cadet Manual of Drill and Ceremonial (available all over the place) is, much to my horror, the tri-service cadet standard these days.



Alas, the drill competition requires the movement but none of the manuals listed as authorities (including the above Sea Cadet Manual) include Reverse to Present.
I was hoping to go to higher with this observation AND a solution.


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

MrGnr said:
			
		

> This should work for you.
> 
> http://www.bellevillearmycadets.com/doors/training-library/Lee%20Enfield%20Rifle%20Drill.pdf



Thanks.  I appreciate the link.

Sadly, however that pub doesn't contain the Present Arms from the Reverse.  But thanks all the same.


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## quadrapiper (15 Jan 2014)

Neither the 1926 RN Manual of Field Training https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0PKP0crpBmaRldSeUhzaU1SMG8/edit?usp=sharing, nor BRCN 3058(64) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0PKP0crpBmadklpYVR6dTEyd2c/edit?usp=sharing, include Present from Reverse. It would _appear _that Rest on your Arms Reversed is intended to be used as an intermediary movement.


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## Edward Campbell (15 Jan 2014)

myself.only said:
			
		

> Thanks.  I appreciate the link.
> 
> Sadly, however that pub doesn't contain the Present Arms from the Reverse.  But thanks all the same.




Yes, it does: §4.2 on Page 4-1. There is also a diagram on p. 4-2.


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Neither the 1926 RN Manual of Field Training https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0PKP0crpBmaRldSeUhzaU1SMG8/edit?usp=sharing, nor BRCN 3058(64) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0PKP0crpBmadklpYVR6dTEyd2c/edit?usp=sharing, include Present from Reverse.



Thank for the links and info, Quadrapiper, although I cannot open them I'll take your word for it.  



			
				quadrapiper said:
			
		

> It would _appear _that Rest on your Arms Reversed is intended to be used as an intermediary movement.



It could be possible the movement only went one-way, so to speak.  It appears the CAMT 2-2 would usually include both movements in one section, often including the phrase "AND VICE VERSA" in the title of that section. 
And the CAMT 2-2 re-print currently in use does include Rest on your arms reversed from the Reverse Arms.


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## jpjohnsn (15 Jan 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Yes, it does: §4.2 on Page 4-1. There is also a diagram on p. 4-2.


I got caught on that too.  It's reverse arms he's asking about, not rest on your arms reversed.  They are two completely different things.


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## Edward Campbell (15 Jan 2014)

Maybe I'mm missing something, but: *There is no reason to go to or from present arms to the reverse.* The reverse is used for marching troops: one goes to and from it from either the slope/shoulder, trail or order arms, depending upon the weapon being used, prior to marching off. Similarly, at the end of the (casket escort) duty that required marching with arms reversed, one returns the troops to the slope/shoulder/order before doing anything else. The present, and movements to and from it, like the rest on arms reversed, are for stationary troops.






Marching with arms reversed. After the troops are halted, and the duty is done, the troops will go to the slope/shoulder/order
before doing anything else.





Rest on your arms reversed. Troops will return tot he present and then to the slope/shoulder or
order before anything else.


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## quadrapiper (15 Jan 2014)

myself.only said:
			
		

> Thank for the links and info, Quadrapiper, although I cannot open them I'll take your word for it.


See if Dropbox works...

RN 1926 Manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7cvcfyj16rd4c69/Royal%20Naval%20Handbook%20of%20Field%20Training%20-%201926.pdf
BRCN 3058: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y3chx5pjbeokjk8/BRCN%203058%2864%29.pdf

E.R. Campbell - both of the above manuals seem to suggest Present is the default "transient" position for getting troops _to_ Reverse Arms, much as it is for Rest on Your Arms Reversed - something you'd do before stepping off.

Additionally, I think there's a comment somewhere in the 1926 manual to the effect that all the standing rifle drill movements may be done on the march, to some standardized timing - can't remember if it's a move per pace, or check-move like current sword drill. Expect the intention of that was for things like porting arms before doubling.


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Maybe I'mm missing something, but: *There is no reason to go to or from present arms to the reverse.*



In the real world, I agree 100%.
However, this has come up in the context of a drill competition, compulsory sequence.


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jan 2014)

myself.only said:
			
		

> In the real world, I agree 100%.
> However, this has come up in the context of a drill competition, compulsory sequence.



 :facepalm: another result of people inventing drill movements that don't exist or so it seems....


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2014)

ERC.... >.....Top Photo....they are all out of step..... >


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

Quadrapiper,  dropbox worked like a charm!

Thanks!


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ERC.... >.....Top Photo....they are all out of step..... >



Ahh yes but out of step with dignity and grace!


Looking at the front rank, I wondered if the rear rank was the only one (still) marching.


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## Kirkhill (15 Jan 2014)

To me it looks like they were forming two ranks on the march from single file with the front rank marking time and the rear rank moving up to dress on the front rank.


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> To me it looks like they were forming two ranks on the march from single file with the front rank marking time and the rear rank moving up to dress on the front rank.



Still would be out of step.


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## Edward Campbell (15 Jan 2014)

myself.only said:
			
		

> In the real world, I agree 100%.
> However, this has come up in the context of a drill competition, compulsory sequence.




 :facepalm:

I'm with NFLD Sapper ... how have we come to this sort of nonsense?

I did my junior NCO course with the Guards, back in the 1960s, instructed by colour sergeants who had passed the Household Division's fearsome _Drill and Duties_ courses: but it was *real* drill, for *real* purposes. Inventing unnecessary drill movements is retarded ...


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## Edward Campbell (15 Jan 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Still would be out of step.




Agreed, George, people have lost the step in both ranks ... I think they're Australians, maybe that explains it!


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jan 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> I'm with NFLD Sapper ... how have we come to this sort of nonsense?
> 
> I did my junior NCO course with the Guards, back in the 1960s, instructed by colour sergeants who had passed the Household Division's fearsome _Drill and Duties_ courses: but it was *real* drill, for *real* purposes. Inventing unnecessary drill movements is retarded ...



Just like The RCR slide    :whiteflag:     .... don't get me wrong...... if done correctly it looks great...


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## myself.only (15 Jan 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> I'm with NFLD Sapper ... how have we come to this sort of nonsense?
> 
> Inventing unnecessary drill movements is retarded ...



Agreed.

Well, to be "fair" I don't think this is a case of *inventing* an unnecessary drill movement.  
I don't imagine they've done anything other than presume that if the manual says you can go from position X to position Y there must exist a reciprocal drill movement to go from Y back to X.
And then added it to the list.


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## Kirkhill (15 Jan 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Agreed, George, people have lost the step in both ranks ... I think they're Australians, maybe that explains it!



Did the Aussies adopt the Mk V?  Those look like Jungle Carbines with the cutback furniture, rubber bumper on the butts and the side mounted sling.


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