# Obligatory Service in the CAF



## SgtGunnesT

From my understanding, through the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP), one must complete a minimum of two months obligatory service for every month of paid university education. However, does one need to serve in their field of training. For example, an infantry soldier must serve in a conflict zone if necessary?

My concern is people and circumstances do change.
Also, how does the Principle of Universality of Service affect obligatory service?
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5023-0-eng.asp
What is the scope of duties referred to by this principle, since I am already aware of the primary duties of an infantry soldier.


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## ballz

If you sign up as an Infantry soldier Officer, then yes, you must serve as an Infantry Officer and on deployment if you are told to deploy.

I'm not sure if that's what you are asking because it seems sort of self-explanatory?


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## Neill McKay

SgtGunnesT said:
			
		

> From my understanding, through the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP), one must complete a minimum of two months obligatory service for every month of paid university education. However, does one need to serve in their field of training. For example, an infantry soldier must serve in a conflict zone if necessary?
> My concern is people and circumstances do change.
> Also, how does the Principle of Universality of Service affect obligatory service?
> http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5023-0-eng.asp
> What is the scope of duties referred to by this principle, since I am already aware of the primary duties of an infantry soldier.



Yes, if told to go, you have to go.

Universality of service is the concept that everyone in the regular force and primary reserve must be able to deploy for military operations or perform other military duty.  (One example of a military duty that would not fit into an average CF member's normal occupation is serving as a member of a base security force -- anyone from an infanteer to a military musician can be required to do that if the occasion arises.)

The way it was explained to me when I was first making enquiries about joining (years ago) was that any member of the Canadian Forces can be required to perform any military duty anywhere in the world at any time.

I hope that's helpful, but I'm not clear either on what you're asking beyond "do I have to fight?".


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## SgtGunnesT

Both answers were exactly what I wanted clarified. I wasn't sure whether my understanding was correct, therefore I used 'from my understanding'. Thank-you for sharing what the scope of duties of the principle was, it was greatly appreciated.


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## SgtGunnesT

ballz said:
			
		

> If you sign up as an Infantry soldier Officer, then yes, you must serve as an Infantry Officer and on deployment if you are told to deploy.
> 
> I'm not sure if that's what you are asking because it seems sort of self-explanatory?



Though it isn't an issue, I was referring to soldier not officer.


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## Gunner98

There is no guarantee that you will successfully complete your classification training as an Infantry Officer, therefore, due to being a training failure you could end up completing your obligatory service as a Logistics Officer or Health Care Administrator (etc.)  Although you were enrolled as an Infantry Officer that does not mean that during your University education that you cannot apply for an Occupational Transfer.

Now I am confused - ROTP and soldier are not complementary terms.


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## ballz

SgtGunnesT said:
			
		

> Though it isn't an issue, I was referring to soldier not officer.



You can't become an Infantry Soldier (an NCM position) through ROTP. ROTP is the Regular Officer Training Program and therefore only applies to Officer positions.


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## SgtGunnesT

Thanks, I had the wrong entry plan, my mistake. Basically. I just need my BMQ (basic military qualification), SQ (soldier qualification), and MOC (basic military occupational) training. Since, I attend university and wish to complete my studies. I may be eligible for paid education (http://www.forces.ca/en/page/serviceoptions-123#noncommissionedmembers-4)

Isn't there obligatory service even without paid education (which I thought was additional)? It could be three to nine years not including subsidized training or education. How can I find out the exact length? I guess it would be best to find out from a recruiting centre.


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## exgunnertdo

If you're referring to NCM-SEP (Non Commissioned Member Subsidized Education Plan) that's not available to Infantry Soldier. Only very specific trades qualify for that program, and it's directly related to the trade (technical school/college). Not a general education like ROTP.

Edit - to change "Program" to "Plan"


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## ModlrMike

Perhaps what you're driving at is UTPNCM (University Training Plan - Non-commissioned Members).


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## Pusser

If you are not currently enrolled in the CF, there is no subsidization plan for your education (i.e. if you enrol now, there is generally no reimbursement for what you have already done).  Any of the subsidized education plans for NCMs are very specific in scope with specific programs aimed at sending you to specific trades.  These are generally technical trades that require college level backgrounds.  There are no general NCM subsidized plans.  To put it plainly, you will not be subsidized to get a university degree or college diploma on your path to join the infantry as an NCM.  If you want to have a university education subsidized, you will need to apply to the appropriate officer entry plan.  If you want to have a college diploma program subsidized, you will have to apply to a military occupation that requires it and then follow that program, which is usually at a specific institution as well.


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## SgtGunnesT

Well, I don't mind not having my education subsidized but I do not want to become an officer without having experience as a soldier.
Thank-you exgunnertdo and pusser.


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## Pusser

GunnesT said:
			
		

> Well, I don't mind not having my education subsidized but I do not want to become an officer without having experience as a soldier.
> Thank-you exgunnertdo and pusser.



Just be sure youi understand that becoming an officer at a later date is not a sure thing.  As many on this forum will attest, it is often more difficult to become an officer from within the CF (i.e. starting as an NCM and trying to commission later) than it is to do so directly.


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## benny88

GunnesT said:
			
		

> Well, I don't mind not having my education subsidized but I do not want to become an officer without having experience as a soldier.
> Thank-you exgunnertdo and pusser.



I think I understand what you're saying, but I know officers who wouldn't like not being considered "soldiers." Perhaps you should educate yourself on Infantry O, they're not exactly paper pushers.


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## tristismilitis

Just wanted to add a quick note for anyone else reading that is curious about the oblig service requirements. I did look into the finer points as I like to know my options. The standard time frame was explained before I signed on the dotted line and it is the 2 months of service per month of subsidized education _to a maximum of 5 years._ I have incurred the maximum time and must serve 3 of the 5 years in the trade for which my subsidy was for, keeping in mind that the CF can simply say 'no' if I request an OT at say the 3.5 year oblig service mark. Which I would anticipate them doing unless they were really desperate for the trade I was applying for and I already had the most of the qualifications required. But hey who knows, they could say yes!
Also, there are subsidized education plans for certain NCM trades and they will retro pay for the last year of the program. For example, if you are at the end of the first year of a two year program and are accepted they will reimburse you for that years' tuition and pay your tuition/salary for the second year.  If it was a three year program and you were at the end of the second year it's the same, they will only pay the most recent year completed.


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## Black Knight

I briefly skimmed over through some of these but similar to the post above (and this is pertaining to the subject, the ROTP program):

Obligatory service: *Every month* of education = *2 months* of obligatory service

Maximum time for obligatory service is *5 years*

After your first year of education, if you bail out of the program you owe the military everything for your education AND your pay while you were at school. (Someone that I know did this after their second year and they owe the military at least $30 0000.

I think I summed things up.. Hope it helps a little bit better (most of this is probably listed above, I just didn't want to read everything.)


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## Wanderingaimlessly

Long time reader, first time poster.

I had a member come and ask a question regarding his obligations regarding release and obligatory service.  The member has several years owing with over ten years of service and would like to break his contract but can't seem to find with any clarity what he will be obliged to remit should his release (item 4C) be granted.  I am having a hard time answering this as even the Release Section was rather cryptic about it.  All they would say is that his file would have to go to Ottawa and that it would take some time to calculate the exact cost.  The member realizes that there is a cost associated with such a situation, but he is adamant about leaving. He feels confident that what he owes can be offset by money from his Return of Contributions.  

I have read the order and told the member that he could be liable for up to $400,000 in terms of wages, allowances, and school costs associated with his education.  Privately this amount seems astronomically punitive and if it is true, we should really look at this given that the CF has an excess of personnel at the moment.  If anyone else might have either some insight or experience with this situation, it would be greatly appreciated.


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## dapaterson

No more return of contributions if he's got over 2 years; he may get a commuted value of pension (depending on his age).

Amount to pay has many variables in the calculation; what trade?  What training?  MilCol?  ROTP?  All those factor into it.  Release section wouldn't do those calcs; it's the CMs in Ottawa who do it.

And the CF isn't over strength.  Buddy made a commitment.  If you're saying he doesn't want to live up to it, well, there are costs associated with that decision.


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## aesop081

Wanderingaimlessly said:
			
		

> He feels confident that what he owes can be offset by money from his Return of Contributions.



The member wants to re-evaluate that thinking as there is no "return of contributions" when one has served over 2 years.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pen/pp/reg/ap-ar/benefits-prestati-eng.asp#wpb-qpl


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## George Wallace

I have seen a member's request for Release refused.  Not the same circumstances as here, but something that you may want to think about.


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## Wanderingaimlessly

Like I said, the member is over 10 years of service.

He is a 2Lt who has just recently failed MOC training with few options being presented at the PSO level.  Formerly trained in an NCM occupation, the member presented wanting to take "the honorable way out" after seeing the apparently ghastly state of the reassignment list.  He has found potentially lucrative work in the public sector, but it doesn't seem that he is getting the information he needs.  Standard stuff attached to his file: good conduct, never charged, and has a potentially useful degree to the CF.  I sat with this guy for an hour and couldn't give him an answer beyond check with the release center.  The cost apparently has a huge amount to do with if he will seek his release.


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## dapaterson

Seen.  Is he currently in a period of obligatory service, or a period of restricted release?

Calculations are at times somewhat arcane - I am not an expert in the area, and there are not a large number of folks who can pull together the info on short notice.


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## Wanderingaimlessly

The member is in his period of obligatory service now.  I realize those sorts of calculations are tough, but I would love to tell this guy he won't be hit for $400,000.  My napkin math on that might be in error, but it blew me away.


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## George Wallace

Wanderingaimlessly said:
			
		

> The member is in his period of obligatory service now.  I realize those sorts of calculations are tough, but I would love to tell this guy he won't be hit for $400,000.  My napkin math on that might be in error, but it blew me away.



That is your calculation for reimbursement to the Crown for the 'Education' the CF has provided him with for his tenure at RMC?


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## dapaterson

Seen.  Keep in mind that periods of leave and periods of military employment during the individual's time at school can be removed from the oblig service calculations on request (per DAOD 5049-1).  There's also the MND's power under QR&O 15.07 (5) to reduce amounts owing.


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## cupper

Wanderingaimlessly said:
			
		

> The member is in his period of obligatory service now.  I realize those sorts of calculations are tough, but I would love to tell this guy he won't be hit for $400,000.  My napkin math on that might be in error, but it blew me away.



I may be wrong but that seems quite high a number (but I don't claim to know anything on this subject). Even the most elite schools in the US don't cost that much for an undergrad degree. Maybe $100K.


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## dapaterson

cupper said:
			
		

> I may be wrong but that seems quite high a number (but I don't claim to know anything on this subject). Even the most elite schools in the US don't cost that much for an undergrad degree. Maybe $100K.



Keep in mind that the individual repays not only tuition but also salary received while a student - that adds up quickly.


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## Wanderingaimlessly

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That is your calculation for reimbursement to the Crown for the 'Education' the CF has provided him with for his tenure at RMC?



Yes.  Factoring in salary, benefits, and cost of education for a former corporal it comes out to nearly that much.  I guess the big question is did I forget to carry the 1?

I factored in full pay and all that, but I have heard strange tales in similar cases where someone in similar shoes gets hit for around $100,000.  I wonder if the MND can reduce it to a more sane amount if the member puts in a memo or something to that effect.  He talked to me about his situation and I did feel for him.  No trades on offer for a guy they spent trying to make into an officer.  Seemingly only problems he has had are in phase training.


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## Robert0288

> but I have heard strange tales in similar cases where someone in similar shoes gets hit for around $100,000



I can confirm that those tales weren't all that strange (though amount was slightly less), and can be paid out over the course of a decade.  This individual was not in the same circumstances as your buddy


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## Fishbone Jones

So why can't the guy come here and give us the specifics and ask his own questions?

Getting things through an intermediary and second hand may result in wrong passage of information and potentially, financial detriment.

It would be much better for you to point him here and let him carry his own ball.


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## Eye In The Sky

I believe "he" already is.   8)


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## CountDC

for salary - are you using just the years he was in school? Assuming 4 years there that would put him roughly at $200k just for salary. 

Those at $100k and less are most likely ROTP OCdts getting a lot less pay than a Cpl, less time to pay back for or have had it reduced. 

I would suggest that if he only has a couple years left then he serve them and save a lot of money and heartache.  As mentioned there is no return to offset what he will owe in the end.


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## M_M

How can you have 10 years in and STILL HAVE oblig service?!

The max amount anyone can incur is 5 years for a period of subsidize education, unless he went on to do a Masters/PhD (if you take 1.5-2 years, that adds 3-4), that would put him over the 10 years required to do school and pay it off.

People have released with only a year or less than a year of their time served and it has cost them between 30k - 50k. Nothing in the realm of 400k or even 100k, unless he was a UTPNCM getting Cpl spec 2 or Sgt/WO pay WHILE he was in school.


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## George Wallace

M_M said:
			
		

> How can you have 10 years in and STILL HAVE oblig service?!
> 
> The max amount anyone can incur is 5 years for a period of subsidize education, unless he went on to do a Masters/PhD (if you take 1.5-2 years, that adds 3-4), that would put him over the 10 years required to do school and pay it off.
> 
> People have released with only a year or less than a year of their time served and it has cost them between 30k - 50k. Nothing in the realm of 400k or even 100k, unless he was a UTPNCM getting Cpl spec 2 or Sgt/WO pay WHILE he was in school.





Please.....Think before you hit send.  


Here are some examples:


VIE for 00191 051 Dent DEO is 6 years
VIE for 00191 051 Dent ROTP is 10 years

VIE for 00192 048 HCA DEO is 9 years
VIE for 00192 048 HCA ROTP is 13 years

VIE for 00195 057 NUR DEO is 6 years
VIE for 00195 057 NUR ROTP is 10 years

VIE for 00196 055 MED DEO is 5 years
VIE for 00196 055 MED ROTP is 12 years

VIE for 00204 067 LEGAL DEO is 4 years
VIE for 00204 067 LEGAL MLTP is 13 years

VIE for 00214 081 MPO DEO is 9 years
VIE for 00214 081 MPO ROTP is 13 years





There are many more examples where Obligatory Service is over 10 years in length.


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## yoman

George, I don't think your talking about the same thing. Obligatory service in the sense they're talking about isn't the same thing as the VIE. I have a 12 year VIE but my obligatory service is only 2 months of service for every month of education (normally five years if ROTP). As a result the member could release before the end of his VIE without incurring any financial penalties due to his schooling if his period of obligatory service is served. 

It's also quite possible for a member to have 10 years in while still having obligatory service. 

Potential example fitting this case for someone going for pilot: 

3 years former NCM trade
4 years of milcol                                                        owes 5 years
3 years to get trade qualified to get wings               time restarts, owes 5 years
Fails phase training after getting wings                    still has whatever time remaining of his pilot obligatory service

This is an extreme case but it's just to show that it is possible to have obligatory service with 10 years of service.


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## DAA

First off, there should be a "Statement of Understanding" on the members Pers File which will outline what is or isn't applicable to the individual which they would have had to sign prior to commencement of subsidized education.  A period of "Restricted Release" runs concurrent with the period of "Obligatory Service".  If the member is contemplating release, I see no reason why a request cannot be initiated by the member through the supporting Release Section to DGMC requesting a "pay back value" based on a future date.

This will allow the person sufficient information on which to make an informed decision.


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## M_M

George Wallace said:
			
		

> *Please.....Think before you hit send. *
> 
> There are many more examples where Obligatory Service is over 10 years in length.




Right back at you, mister. Just because I'm a forum noob, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about when I post or don't have anything meaningful to contribute. 

Oligatory service is time you MUST pay back before you can release (or face financial penalty). Variable Initial Engagement is the first contract you sign and the amount of service you must fullfil prior to being eligible for full release benefits when leaving the CF.


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## PuckChaser

VIE can also equal obligatory service, which was the case with my CT and awarding of recruitment allowance. Had I not served those 4 years, I would owe a prorated amount of the $20,000 back.


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## M_M

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> VIE can also equal obligatory service, which was the case with my CT and awarding of recruitment allowance. Had I not served those 4 years, I would owe a prorated amount of the $20,000 back.



Correct, part of you VIE is obligatory service but the reverse is NOT true.

 ROTP candidates usually end up with a  13 year VIE, 4 years is spent in school, 5 is paying back for the school (obligatory service), and the last 4 is just your VIE. If you finished the first 9 years, you do NOT owe monies to the Crown. The first 9 years are simultaneously obligatory and part of your VIE, but the last 4 years is in NO WAY mandatory or will cause you to incur some kind of debt against the Crown.

I'm only speaking for officers, I don't know how it works for NCMs receiving subsidized education. I imagine it is very similar, only the time frames would be different.


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## Brasidas

M_M said:
			
		

> Correct, part of you VIE is obligatory service but the reverse is NOT true.
> 
> ROTP candidates usually end up with a  13 year VIE, 4 years is spent in school, 5 is paying back for the school (obligatory service), and the last 4 is just your VIE. If you finished the first 9 years, you do NOT owe monies to the Crown. The first 9 years are simultaneously obligatory and part of your VIE, but the last 4 years is in NO WAY mandatory or will cause you to incur some kind of debt against the Crown.
> 
> I'm only speaking for officers, I don't know how it works for NCMs receiving subsidized education. I imagine it is very similar, only the time frames would be different.



4 years spent in school, as a non-spec pay Cpl 4, for pay alone is $231168.

Owing 5 years on the same pay rate would be $288960. It's possible for him to owe more than 5 years depending on the trade, and there's also education and other expenses incurred by the crown.


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## M_M

*For OP*: buddy can just put in a release, obtain an answer from Ottawa and refuse the sign the documents if the cost is too high. If you don't sign the papers, they cannot release you for a 4C release. It's as simple as that. 

He can also ask to have his release date extended from the date Ottawa gives him, in order to cut down on the amount he owes and reduce it to a sum he can afford to pay. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions. 



			
				Brasidas said:
			
		

> 4 years spent in school, as a non-spec pay Cpl 4, for pay alone is $231168.
> 
> Owing 5 years on the same pay rate would be $288960. It's possible for him to owe more than 5 years depending on the trade, and there's also education and other expenses incurred by the crown.



Now here's another common misconception. When you reimburse the Crown for educational expenses, it is generally only how much it cost to train you, it does NOT include your salary. If financial penalties for terminating your contract before you finished included salaries, I don't imagine many people would be able to afford the pay out. I heard a rumour that UTPNCMs have to reimburse their salary but OP also didn't state that his friend is a UT; stop scaring the poor guy!

The chart lists 60 months as the maximum amount of oblig service that can be incurred for ONE period of subsidised education, no matter what kind of officer/NCM training program you fall under. 

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

The only exception is pilot, in which case they have NO OPTION to buy themselves out of their contract anyway.


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## Blackadder1916

M_M said:
			
		

> Now here's another common misconception. When you reimburse the Crown for educational expenses, it is generally only how much it cost to train you, *it does NOT include your salary*. If financial penalties for terminating your contract before you finished included salaries, I don't imagine many people would be able to afford the pay out. I heard a rumour that UTPNCMs have to reimburse their salary but OP also didn't state that his friend is a UT; stop scaring the poor guy!
> 
> http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp



Do you have a reference that supports your statement (applicable portion highlighted by me) other than (IMO) an incomplete reading of  DAOD 5049-1?  If you had gone to some of the references of that DAOD you would have found the applicable QR&O that states pay and allowances are included in the calculation. 

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp


> 15.07 – VOLUNTARY RELEASE AFTER
> SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION OR TRAINING
> 
> . . . . . .
> 
> (2) Where in the opinion of the Chief of Defence Staff
> special and unforeseen circumstances require that an
> officer or non-commissioned member apply for his
> release prior to the completion of the minimum period of
> service referred to in paragraph (1), the member’s release
> may be approved if the exigencies of the service permit;
> however, *approval of release for other than
> compassionate reasons is contingent on the member
> refunding all or a portion of the cost incurred by the
> public, determined under paragraph (3),* for his
> attendance at courses as prescribed by the Chief of the
> Defence Staff.
> 
> (3) Where under paragraph (2) all or a portion of the cost
> incurred by the public is to be reimbursed, the amount of
> that reimbursement shall be:
> 
> (a) the total cost incurred by the public in providing
> the course, if the release occurs within 12 months of
> the commencement of the required minimum period
> of service; or
> 
> (b) that part of the cost incurred by the public that is
> the equivalent in ratio of the number of months still to
> be served (part of a month being reckoned as a full
> month), to the total number of months of the
> minimum period of service, if the release occurs
> within that required minimum period of service but
> more than 12 months after commencement of that
> period.
> 
> (4) *The cost incurred by the public on which
> reimbursement shall be based shall be*:
> 
> (a) the amount paid by the Crown either directly to
> the institution providing the instruction or by
> reimbursement of the officer or non-commissioned
> member for fees or any other costs arising out of or
> attributable to his attendance under instruction, but in
> the case of an officer attending a Canadian Military
> College the amount shall be the fees and expenses as
> prescribed in the Queen’s Regulations and Orders for
> the Canadian Military Colleges; and
> 
> (b) except for any period during which the member
> performed normal service duties, *pay and allowances
> including the rate of subsistence allowance for his
> rank and status, whether in issue or not, applicable
> from time to time in the period for which he attended
> the course*, but not including
> 
> (i) transportation and travelling expenses provided
> to send him and his dependents, furniture and
> effects to or from the course,
> (ii) any assisted leave transportation benefits
> extended to him, or
> (iii) income tax deductions applicable to that
> period.
> 
> (5) Notwithstanding this article, the Minister may
> authorize a reduction in the portion to be refunded by the
> officer or non-commissioned member to such reasonable
> part of the cost incurred by the public as he may consider
> appropriate, having regard to any special and unforeseen
> circumstances.
> (G)



It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour nor misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary.  

At one time (but not quite in the stone age) a common practice in dealing with newly commissioned officers who received an education on the CF's dime but failed to qualify in any MOC was to employ them as an untrained 2Lt (or OCdt) at NDHQ (. . . OIC photocopying).  I don't know how that plays these days, but more than a few young men who thought they were on their way to a good job in the private sector without any student loans (and thinking they had fooled the system) ended up spending three to four years doing menial work in Ottawa.


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## yoman

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour or misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary.



Yep. Some guy I know was making Cpl salary while at the college and decided it would be a good idea to release after being there for three years. He quickly changed his mind after finding out it would cost him an arm and a leg... roughly 200k if I recall correctly.


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## MJP

[At one time (but not quite in the stone age) a common practice in dealing with newly commissioned officers who received an education on the CF's dime but failed to qualify in any MOC was to employ them as an untrained 2Lt (or OCdt) at NDHQ (. . . OIC photocopying).  I don't know how that plays these days, but more than a few young men who thought they were on their way to a good job in the private sector without any student loans (and thinking they had fooled the system) ended up spending three to four years doing menial work in Ottawa.
[/quote]

Talking to some folks in the SEM, that isn't being entertained anymore.  If one fails obtain MOC status and unsuited for any other trade or refuses to try another trade, then they are released.  Upon release they are financially responsible for expenses incurred.


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## M_M

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Do you have a reference that supports your statement (applicable portion highlighted by me) other than (IMO) an incomplete reading of  DAOD 5049-1?  If you had gone to some of the references of that DAOD you would have found the applicable QR&O that states pay and allowances are included in the calculation.
> 
> http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp
> It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour nor misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary.



Okay, I apologize for misinformation/confusion. Maybe I should have explained myself better; I should have said "you MAY NOT have to pay back your salary". Sorry. What I stated in my prior post is based onanecdotal evidence of RMC cadets who have released 1 year or sooner after graduation. Several of them who recently left only ended up repaying 32k to the Crown. 

So let's break it down:

ROTP salary is about 17k a year, 4 years of salary alone is 71k, if we subtract 9 months of salary for the time they are away at training during the summer, we end up with about 52k worth of salary debt. Tuition at RMC ranges from $1,808 - $ 3,287 per year, so lets take something in the middle and call it $2,400 x 4 =  $9600. This gives you a grand total of just over 60k of debt owed to the Crown, how is it that multiple people ended up paying the Crown back only half that after just a year of service?

It's a mystery of the universe.

What I was trying to say is that if people were actually "paying back all of their salary" (as per the DAOD), they would be paying back much much more. You can't accurately estimate what you will owe based on tuition and your salary, you have to ask Ottawa for their magical calculations! Many people were surprised by the amount after being told it could be 80k+.


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## Brasidas

M_M said:
			
		

> You can't accurately estimate what you will owe based on tuition and your salary, you have to ask Ottawa for their magical calculations! Many people were surprised by the amount after being told it could be 80k+.



Granted, but you can *conservatively* estimate total liability using salary+.

His back of an envelope calculation of $400k+ for an ex-NCM isn't ridiculous, its a scary estimate of what he _could_ be expected to pay to avoid re-muster into a trade he doesn't want.


----------



## M_M

Brasidas said:
			
		

> Granted, but you can *conservatively* estimate total liability using salary+.
> 
> His back of an envelope calculation of $400k+ for an ex-NCM isn't ridiculous, its a scary estimate of what he _could_ be expected to pay to avoid re-muster into a trade he doesn't want.



If Ottawa REALLY hates you, you may have to pay the $400k. I'm just saying that buddy here shouldn't be scared to go see what it is based on what other people are telling him because he might not have to pay it back. And most people don't end up paying back their full salary or even a large chunk of it. He really should go see for himself what Ottawa has to say about him releasing. 

I have close friends went through the same thing. Many people advised against their releases told them that they'd owe 100+k and I would go bankrupt trying to pay it back. If one friend had listened to them, she would still be stuck on the opposite side of the country from her husband; and another one would have missed out an awesome opportunity to attend law school.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Greetings,
Sorry if this is a repeat question. 

As ROTP after completing your mandatory service (2 months service for each 1 month school), is it possible to release before the VIE is up without any negative feedback? As in, could you use the military as reference, provided of course that during your service your yearly performance reviews have been good? Or would it be frowned upon? Basically looking at other government jobs, depending on how the service in the army will be.

I have not signed up with the idea that I will release before my VIE. I actually hope I will make 15-25 years before releasing. But I always like to know my options. And some of my alternatives involves government positions.

Any more info regarding the VIE would be appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## blue

More info on obligatory service and release:
http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

Deciding to release before your period of incurred obligatory service has expired, in itself, will certainly not leave you with any "negative feedback" or so-called 'black marks' on your file. 
Good conduct/performance during your time in the CF can only help a potential future application to other government careers. I don't know enough about exactly what information follows you to comment further.

That said, there is always going to be some stigma associated with members who chose to voluantarly release during training (including ROTP). It will not stick with you, especially if you have legitimate reasons for release.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Thank you for the answer, the only one yet 

I am only concerned regarding releasing after my mandatory service (due to my ROTP) but before my VIE. Mainly I want to know exactly what does VIE entails in regards to releasing before the VIE term is up. This considering from the fact that you can seem to be able to voluntarily release at any time, then what is the purpose of the VIE (or any other contracts). Is it just a job guarantee that you will have employment with the CF for that period?


----------



## mkil

First of all, I am not an expert at all - so I am just giving you my personal experience. 

My husband just signed a 25 year contract. I was absolutely in shock that he wanted to sign that much time away. He explained it to me that with more and more cuts seeming likely, signing a longer contract gave him more job security that someone who signs a 5 year. He can release at any point, as long as the proper avenues are followed, but the military now has an obligation to find him suitable employment, or retraining until his 25 years are up. 

That is what we went through, not sure if it is the "norm", but just thought I would let you know.


----------



## Shamrock

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> Sorry if this is a repeat question.
> 
> As ROTP after completing your mandatory service (2 months service for each 1 month school), is it possible to release before the VIE is up without any negative feedback? As in, could you use the military as reference, provided of course that during your service your yearly performance reviews have been good? Or would it be frowned upon? Basically looking at other government jobs, depending on how the service in the army will be.
> 
> I have not signed up with the idea that I will release before my VIE. I actually hope I will make 15-25 years before releasing. But I always like to know my options. And some of my alternatives involves government positions.
> 
> Any more info regarding the VIE would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks



Releases requested with less than 180 days' notice or during one's first 3 years' service, during a period of restricted release, or during obligatory service require a waiver.  A release during obligatory service may incur financial penalty.

On approval, a voluntary release is a voluntary release - article 4 (c).  One may apply for government employment or re-apply with the CF under this article of release, subject to some limitations.  

Letters of recommendation and references remain an individual responsibility - if a soldier wants one, then he or she had better seek one out.  There is no Department of Character Reference.


----------



## aesop081

mkil said:
			
		

> My husband just signed a 25 year contract.



No one signs a 25 years contract. No one. Certainly not when one first joins.



> but the military now has an obligation to find him suitable employment, or retraining until his 25 years are up.



There are no such obligation.


----------



## DAA

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> I am only concerned regarding releasing after my mandatory service (due to my ROTP) but before my VIE. Mainly I want to know exactly what does VIE entails in regards to releasing before the VIE term is up. This considering from the fact that you can seem to be able to voluntarily release at any time, then what is the purpose of the VIE (or any other contracts). Is it just a job guarantee that you will have employment with the CF for that period?



Once you have completed your obligatory service, you are free from any financial penalties and have no further obligations to the CF, so you can put in your release anytime after that.  The purpose of VIE's and other contracts are to provide the CF with a stable pool of employees (so to speak) while at the same time providing its' members with a sense of stable long term employment.  Just a means of maintaining and somewhat controlling personnel levels.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Thank you for your replies. I trust the information is accurate. Unfortunately at the moment I am not in a position to ask someone from the forces for this info, hence why I asked here.

I will definitely stick with the trade I chose until my contract is up, but since the failure rate is high, and if I don't make it, I will be obliged to pick another due to my mandatory service from ROTP, one which I might not enjoy, I want to know that I have options to complete my mandatory service and move on to other governmental agencies such as RCMP or CBSA if that do happens.

I would like to say I will make it into my chosen trade and don't have to worry about it, but I am a realistic.

Cheers


----------



## chasechap

Hello All;
   I have been hearing stories of some Officer Cadets, in their fourth and final year at RMC Kingston, that are being approached and hired by civilian companies, and even some graduate universities.
   How does that happen? I know the company/university pays off our contract, but how does an Officer Cadet put himself into that situation? What criteria must be met? Is it simply good networking and academic success at RMC?
   I understand that Officer Cadets are sought out at graduation because companies believe we are disciplined, leaders, etc.
   I'm simply curious as to how to whole process works and how an Officer Cadet would line himself up for that.


----------



## Motard

You come on a military forum asking how to abuse the system? Did you even think that message through before posting?


----------



## dapaterson

I would hope that members begging to leave at the end of MilCol are given a suitably shitty release item to prevent their selfishness from ever further infecting the CF.


----------



## GAP

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I would hope that members begging to leave at the end of MilCol are given a suitably shitty release item to prevent their selfishness from ever further infecting the CF.



Along with full return of costs....


----------



## jeffb

chasechap said:
			
		

> I'm simply curious as to how to whole process works and how an Officer Cadet would line himself up for that.



They would not. Committing to serve for a period of time in order to get your education paid for (both university and military courses) only to leverage that training in order to spring yourself into a career is unethical and I would argue counterproductive to the company hiring. If you are so unwilling to honour your commitments to Canada, what would make any company think that you would be willing to honour your commitment to them after they "buy you out"? 

Please tell me you are not already in RMC. If you are, then you have not been paying much attention.


----------



## chasechap

I asked this question NOT because this is the path I want to pursue. I simpy ask because one of my teachers had his contract paid off upon his graduation from RMC and he went to study in France. I thought it didn't make sense and I didn't understand how the process works.
   Again, not because this is what I wanted to do, nor was it in pursuit of a way to abuse the system.


----------



## captloadie

There have always been several OCDTs every year that have been "bought out" by companies or other learning institutions. Most, at least of the ones I knew, didn't enter RMC with that as the plan. Some realized late in their education that the real military wasn't for them, or were in a trade that no longer interested them. Should they have been forced to complete their moral obligation to serve? Yes, but at what additional cost to the CF, knowing that when their obligatory service was up, they were gone. 

I would strongly agree that entering RMC with the end goal of getting out is unethical.


----------



## jwtg

captloadie said:
			
		

> There have always been several OCDTs every year that have been "bought out" by companies or other learning institutions. Most, at least of the ones I knew, didn't enter RMC with that as the plan. Some realized late in their education that the real military wasn't for them, or were in a trade that no longer interested them. Should they have been forced to complete their moral obligation to serve? Yes, but at what additional cost to the CF, knowing that when their obligatory service was up, they were gone.
> 
> I would strongly agree that entering RMC with the end goal of getting out is unethical.



What he said.  The whispers we usually hear around here (RMC) are of students (typically in engineering) getting bought out- meaning all the costs owed because of their VR prior to fulfilling obligatory service - and going into the Civi world.  It seems to be something that people realize between 2nd-4th year, once they've already locked in for obligatory service but have a bit more exposure to the CF and have decided it isn't for them.

This doesn't happen very often, and it's not something you should be excited about as an applicant/1st year.  As far as I'm concerned, I signed a contract saying I would work for a bunch of years after graduation.  Further, all my time spent studying is pensionable.  If they hold up their end of the contract, I'm going to hold up mine.

Also, 4 yrs school + 21 yrs work = 25 years + pension.  Not a bad package.


----------



## dcs

I think that you will find the professor, when he was a student, was part of cuts and offers made many years ago when cost reduction was wanted many years ago.  I have also been told that back in the 60's and 70's Air Canada would buy out for pilots....... that was then this is now (if it even did happen).    Also as had been stated in earlier posts, I find it disgraceful and disappointing that individuals given such an opportunity would now be looking into or considering not living up to their commitments.

Individuals doing so should have to pay back the full cost of their eduction and training including salary, and be unable for an extended period (if not forever) to work for any capacity for the government again.  For an engineer tuition, salary etc  should be at least 200K.  For pilot even more as takes a few years to get your wings...... perhaps 400K or more.  

Any individual can decide before the start of second year, and leave as per the agreement they signed.... not after four when they have received all of the benefits and as you state personal status and recognition in the civilian world of the value of RMC.

There are loads of good candidates that I am sure intend and will live up to their obligation.  I fully endorse any testing or work done by DND to evaluate this for candidates and recover fully all costs from individuals that leave.  If anything it has to be a penalty in doing so, and at least cost neutral (should be greater than) to DND and taxpayers in general.  

The taxpayers and RMC/DND deserve such. or even greater in my and I think just about everyone else's opinion.


----------



## Sigs Pig

jeffb said:
			
		

> They would not. Committing to serve for a period of time in order to get your education paid for (both university and military courses) only to leverage that training in order to spring yourself into a career is unethical and I would argue counterproductive to the company hiring. If you are so unwilling to honour your commitments to Canada, what would make any company think that you would be willing to honour your commitment to them after they "buy you out"?
> 
> Please tell me you are not already in RMC. If you are, then you have not been paying much attention.



If you are so unwilling to honour your commitments to Canada marriage, what would make any company SOB think that you would be willing to honour your commitment to them after they "buy you out"? 

Posing it a different way, are you more of a fiend to "leave" _Canada or your marriage_? You (may have) promised to honour both to the end.
I am with a divorcee, but she had left on her own before I met her, was not "bought out". So even though she did not honour her vows she left to keep her sanity. 

ME


----------



## jeffb

Sigs Pig said:
			
		

> Posing it a different way, are you more of a fiend to "leave" _Canada or your marriage_? You (may have) promised to honour both to the end.
> I am with a divorcee, but she had left on her own before I met her, was not "bought out". So even though she did not honour her vows she left to keep her sanity.



That argument is apples to oranges. The committment made in this case involves a significant financial investment when you include military training costs, school, books, salary, etc. When a marriage ends there is a reckoning of accounts so to speak. Assets and debts are split according to whatever argreement is reached, parenting understandings are arrived at etc. While some of the costs are covered when the OCdt "buys out" their contract, most a not. 

Furthermore, I don't think anyone enters into a marriage with the intent of gaining the benefits (however you define them) and then leaving after a fixed period. The factor that is so odious here is the intent, not the act.


----------



## Messerschmitt

If you really want to go into civilian, either release now before your 2nd year starts, or after your graduation, complete your obligatory service and then release


----------



## cupper

Relax guys, the OP stated that he had no intention of doing such, but was questioning info about a Teacher who had done such.

I find it difficult to comprehend that a company would make such an offer to someone who has very limited experience in whatever field they are in. To invest $200 to 400K to buy out a contract to hire someone for what would amount to an entry level position would be risky at best, unless the person was in a highly skilled profession like pilot, where there was a severe shortage of trained personnel in the available pool.


----------



## rfell

I was wondering if anyone here has gone through or is in the process of completing a voluntary release after receiving subsidized education?

I have served 1 of my 3 years of obligatory service and honestly don't think I can do the next 2 years.  It's just not for me.  I figured I would ask here because I am worried that the repayment cost will be quite high and by requesting this figure through my CoC may set in action my own release.

My release is contingent on the repayment figure, I have no problem repaying ~$20,000 dollars if it means I can release, but anything greater and I will have to hang around.  

Note:  I am very familiar with the repayment calculation found within CFAO's, etc...  These guidelines are loosely defined I am looking for a tangible number that another member has been quoted or repaid.

Any help in the matter is greatly appreciated.


----------



## GeorgeD

I believe that if you release after you have incurred obligatory service you will be charged for everything. This means salaries for the entire time at school as well as tuition,books, PLD if you received it. There was a guy who released just after a full year of Subsidized Education and he has to pay back in the excess of $80,000 just for one year. 


I don't know if working for a year decreases the figure or even if you can get a VR after getting to a posting. I know if you quit while in school you will have to pay everything back not entirely sure if it differs after one year of your obligatory service.


----------



## Blackadder1916

rfell said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone here has gone through or is in the process of completing a voluntary release after receiving subsidized education?
> 
> I have served 1 of my 3 years of obligatory service and honestly don't think I can do the next 2 years.  It's just not for me.  I figured I would ask here because I am worried that the repayment cost will be quite high and *by requesting this figure through my CoC may set in action my own release*.
> 
> *My release is contingent on the repayment figure*, I have no problem repaying ~$20,000 dollars if it means I can release, but anything greater and I will have to hang around.
> 
> Note:  I am very familiar with the repayment calculation found within CFAO's, etc...  These guidelines are loosely defined I am looking for a tangible number that another member has been quoted or repaid.
> 
> Any help in the matter is greatly appreciated.



Actually, your release would be contingent on whether it was approved by the release authority.  And (in my opinion only), the reason you cite for wanting to leave is unlikely to rise to the required criteria of either exceptional or extenuating circumstances.  Yes, I know that what you mean is you'll only request release is if you can afford it.  Well, what's one more whiny little s**t in the organization for an extra year and a half (_yes, you have two years of obligatory service left, but even if you reimburse the Crown, you still have to give the mandatory six months notice_).

The only thing that triggers a (voluntary) release is the member actually requesting release IAW current orders and directives.  Asking for how much you would have to reimburse the Crown is not requesting release, but (again my opinion) you may end up waiting a long time for the applicable authorities to action such a request simply because its not their standard routine.  If you request release, they have standard procedures for determining how much you owe the taxpayers, but (unless things have changed since I've retired) you are not released until you provide an acceptable (to the Crown) method of payment (e.g. cash or certified cheque).

There are probably more up to date standard operating procedures (they may even be accessible on the DIN) but the following are the guidelines used in the mid-1990s (even though they originated and hadn't changed since the 1970s) by the careers shop.  (I found this, on a old disk that I have, in a pub titled CHIEF PERSONNEL CAREERS & DEVELOPMENT - OPERATING PROCEDURES MANUAL)



> RELEASE
> 
> 210-3, REIMBURSEMENT TO THE CROWN FOR TRAINING OR SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION
> 
> PART II -- OFFICERS
> 
> PURPOSE
> 
> 1.   To establish a standard procedure for determining the amount of
> money which must be reimbursed to the Crown by an officer seeking
> release prior to completion of obligatory service following a course or
> subsidized education; and confirming the method of payment.
> 
> CPCSA POLICY
> 
> 2.   DGPCO is responsible for determining the amount of reimbursement
> and method of payment including confirmation of the unit.
> 
> 3.   D Pers A3 is responsible to ensure that release instructions
> contain an adequate cross-reference to the releasing agency regarding
> recovery.
> 
> 4.   The assessment of the amount to be reimbursed will be made in
> accordance with QR&O 15.18.
> 
> 5.   Authority to waive or reduce the amount of reimbursement is vested
> in the Minister; except that in cases where an individual requests
> release and waiver in order to take up employment in other government
> service, and is willing to sign a Bond under seal to remain in such
> employ for the duration of his obligatory service, the Minister has
> delegated such authority to ADM(Per).
> 
> PROCEDURE
> 
> 6.   On receipt of a request for release which involves reimbursement,
> the CM will confirm the attendance dates of the course or education and
> then obtain the following information:
> 
> a.   Pay and Allowances
> 
> (1)  From DPS - a statement of the total amount of the
> member's pay and allowances for the period involved,
> 
> AND
> 
> b.   Tuition Fees and Expenses
> 
> (1)  From DATES - a statement of tuition fees and expenses for
> books/instruments paid out for a post-graduate student,
> 
> (2)  From DATES - a statement of tuition fees and expenses for
> books/instruments paid out for a graduate from UTP,
> 
> OR
> 
> (3)  From QR&O Volume I Appendix X Chapter 5 Fees in respect
> to a graduate member of a Canadian Service College.
> 
> 7.When the amount of money to be reimbursed has been determined, the CM
> will obtain approval for release in accordance with CPCSA Operating
> Procedures Manual Item 102-1, and the procedures detailed in Item 112-3.
> 
> 8.Once the release is approved and prior to the issue of the release
> instructions, the CM will confirm the method of payment by contact with the
> unit. Normal processes include payment by cash or certified cheque made
> payable to the Receiver General of Canada, deposited with the Base
> Comptroller. A promissory note is acceptable but such transactions should
> be reviewed by DPLS. A combination of the above methods is also acceptable.
> 
> 9.D Pers A3 will issue the release instruction on direction from the CM
> and will ensure that a statement is included to the effect that the release
> is subject to reimbursement as previously determined. A copy of the release
> instruction will be forwarded to DPS.
> 
> ADDITIONAL COMMENT
> 
> 10.Bond - The wording of a Bond under seal (where the individual is
> authorized to complete his service in another government department) should
> be confirmed with DPLS.
> 
> 11.Waiver - Submissions for waiver or reduction will be prepared by the
> CM after suitable review of the request and determination of the financial
> impact. Such submissions will be forwarded to the Minister or ADM(Per) if
> applicable, in accordance with CFP 121(1) and Item 101-4 of this Manual.
> 
> References: QR&O 15.18, CFAO 9-12, CFAO 9-33, CFAO 15-2
> 
> Item Date:  May 76
> 
> Reviewed Date: Mar 78
> 
> OPI:        DGPCO
> 
> Sponsor:    DPCAO 4
> 
> OCI:        D Pers A3
> DPLS
> DPS
> DATES


----------



## Staff Weenie

Try looking at DAOD 5049-1, Obligatory Service, at:

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5049/1_e.asp

The DAOD has numerous links to other policies and documents that be of help.


----------



## Pieman

Hmm....what if he did something to cause a 5 d) release. Think they could force someone to pay back even though they are being tossed? Just examining all options. (even the bad ones, ha!)


----------



## CombatDoc

It also depends on your trade i.e .stressed trade or one that is overborne.  If you're in a stressed MOSID then your chances of getting approval for a "oblig buyback " are likely much better than if your MOSID is short.  What do you do?


----------



## 421_434_226

Pieman, not too sure about that I am certain that there are parade squares all over the place that could use sweeping or snow shoveling until the required time in is fulfilled.


----------



## Drag

Pieman said:
			
		

> Hmm....what if he did something to cause a 5 d) release. Think they could force someone to pay back even though they are being tossed? Just examining all options. (even the bad ones, ha!)



I know someone that tried to get himself released upon graduation from university, but before completion on BOTP to avoid completing his obligatory service and paying back the cost of his subsidized education.  Didn't quite work for him and he got kept as a GD OCdt.


----------



## kratz

I had a member of the family chose to cease her training as a Air Traffic Controller (Officer trade), where her civilian related university education was paid for. Very similar to the OP’s query so far.

In her situation, she did her 5 years and did not owe the Crown anything upon release.  Based on hearing her comments over time, you are smart to recognize not fitting in and wanting to exit sooner, rather than later.

The challenge is to be gainfully employed while burning off the time you owe. This is where most positive or negative comments through experience seem to come from.

As others have posted, you took the shiny crown, now you dance until the song is over. It’s the age old carrot and stick approach.


----------



## cgrey

Well I've got good news for you (I think).  I had a similar situation (NCM - College) but it all depends if you had training at RMC or at any University as a Commissioned Member - OR you received the same (or College) as an NCM.

After reading the DAOD's and QR&O's (http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp ref 4. a, b) on the matter I initially believed I'd be owing for my cost of education [ 80k+ deal breaker ], and para *15.07* mentions a *Salary* payback as well, but under the circumstances: *"except for any period during which the member performed normal service duties" *must pay his* "pay and allowances including the rate of subsistence allowance for his rank and status"*.  Now for me any time I have to be dragged to a parade, show up in uniform, or work on Military related subject matter that is active duty.  Be it in the classroom or in a field.  Some had the notion that that did not constitute 'Active Duty' but it does.

Furthermore the costs of Books, housing, and actual subject matter is SAID to be 2 days per 1 day of school (Or 2 Months/1 Month Teaching - your call on the measurement) can be further broken into the exact time you worked for that Certification, Diploma, Bachelor, whatever.  For me, one day a week was purely Army, minus non-class time (Lunch, breaks, etc.) and you can bring that time toward repayment up.  This is however circumstantial and worked in my case, it really depends on how you present the issue.

Regardless of my last, the best way to start is to contact your nearest release section and schedule an interview.  It's what I did and I could confidentially ask my questions without becoming a pariah.  Find the cost, and your time owed minus time in, and get a real answer.   Don't listen to angry people who get up-in-arms (AKA angry little s**ts) about your idea of leaving - for me the Army is a job, not a life-style and I see no reason to stay until my initial is over, and definitely not after.


----------



## Jarnhamar

cgrey said:
			
		

> Don't listen to angry people who get up-in-arms (AKA angry little s**ts) about your idea of leaving - for me the Army is a job, not a life-style and I see no reason to stay until my initial is over, and definitely not after.



Ya for sure, why on earth would you stay until the initial contract you signed is over? That's for suckers


----------



## cgrey

Because sometimes when you first sign a new Contract, you are told how the trade will be and it isn't always like it says on paper.  I'm not saying always but sometimes that trade is not what you signed for and truth be told you will be better suited to something else.  Doing something because you signed a contract makes no sense if you hate your job, are hard to work with (not saying you are), start to slack etc.   

You get one life to live, and 3 years may not sound like a long time but I'd rather see one of my men doing something they enjoy.  Not enjoying your job and hating it, and not dealing with it is being a sucker.  Any day I'd say paying once for a mistake is better than sticking through and paying every day for three years.

In a much smaller scale:  Getting a shiny new phone on a three year contract.  If It does not perform as you expected, but you've gotten use out of it, and you're willing to pay (not weasel out for free) then it's not wrong to cancel that contract.  It's your right.


----------



## brihard

I'm actually surprisingly neutral on this. One the one hand if someone can't hack it and wants to quick, OK, at that point he's of no real use and in some ways is a toxicity and a liability. Expedite release. But absolutely hit them for every dollar owed.

However at the end of the day I recognize and respect that you can always make more money; but you can never make more time. That comes in finite quantity and is always ticking down. If someone is willing to take the hit and accept the financial obligations in exchange for service obligations, get 'em out without hindrance or prejudice so we can focus our efforts on those deserving of them.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Looking at this as a taxpayer, I hope the CF recovers every penny it is entitled to from anyone who thinks they are going to scam a free education and then walk away owing as little as possible.

Looking at this as a current serving member, I hope they keep those types in and make use of them in any kind of GD work, or if employable in their MOC employed in that MOC until the end of their oblig service.  There are numerous type of duties that are currently done by members outside of their normal working hours who are actually _serving_ [vice *looking to be served*] [example, Roundsmen at A-Block in Halifax] that can be performed by the members of this SOE-IAS (Sense of Entitlement - I AM SPECIAL) crowd.

If people want out, let them out, but recover all associated costs.


----------



## justin9

Black Knight said:
			
		

> After your first year of education, if you bail out of the program you owe the military everything for your education AND your pay while you were at school. (Someone that I know did this after their second year and they owe the military at least $30 0000.



Can someone confirm if it is really $300k or $30k after a year? $300k doesn't seem reasonable.


----------



## Noctis

justin9 said:
			
		

> Can someone confirm if it is really $300k or $30k after a year? $300k doesn't seem reasonable.



Given where he put the space, he clearly meant $30k.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

Black Knight said:
			
		

> I briefly skimmed over through some of these but similar to the post above (and this is pertaining to the subject, the ROTP program):
> 
> Obligatory service: *Every month* of education = *2 months* of obligatory service
> 
> Maximum time for obligatory service is *5 years*
> 
> After your first year of education, if you bail out of the program you owe the military everything for your education AND your pay while you were at school. (Someone that I know did this after their second year and they owe the military at least $30 0000.
> 
> I think I summed things up.. Hope it helps a little bit better (most of this is probably listed above, I just didn't want to read everything.)


Yes, money will be owed back.  In certain circumstances however an offer can be given to the member to go into an NCM trade to repay this amount in time served vice financial repayment (i.e. two years education provided so 4 years service must be served as an NCM).


----------



## ballz

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Yes, money will be owed back.  In certain circumstances however an offer can be given to the member to go into an NCM trade to repay this amount in time served vice financial repayment (i.e. two years education provided so 4 years service must be served as an NCM).



As of last summer, the current trend at the Infantry School was that if you wanted to get out of the Infantry, you were being directed to submit your memo for a Voluntary Release... from what a current instructor told me, this is still the case.

I think they were getting sick of people getting through BMOQ-L and then deciding one or two weeks into DP1.1 that they no longer wanted to continue training to be an Infantry O so they were submitting a memo for Voluntary Withdrawal (from the course) so they could seek out a new trade via the BPSO... or what people have began to call the Army Welfare program (staying as a 2Lt in the training system for 2-4 years, most of the time on PAT Pl).

Just something to consider for those wanting to get a free education through ROTP. If you want to be an Infantry O, great, if you want a free education, go another route.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

ballz said:
			
		

> As of last summer, the current trend at the Infantry School was that if you wanted to get out of the Infantry, you were being directed to submit your memo for a Voluntary Release... from what a current instructor told me, this is still the case.
> 
> I think they were getting sick of people getting through BMOQ-L and then deciding one or two weeks into DP1.1 that they no longer wanted to continue training to be an Infantry O so they were submitting a memo for Voluntary Withdrawal (from the course) so they could seek out a new trade via the BPSO... or what people have began to call the Army Welfare program (staying as a 2Lt in the training system for 2-4 years, most of the time on PAT Pl).
> 
> Just something to consider for those wanting to get a free education through ROTP. If you want to be an Infantry O, great, if you want a free education, go another route.


My post was more in line with the education reimbursement than about the trade you were in.  It's pretty much that if you had gone into your second year of education and beyond where you would be on the hook financially to repay the tuition and salary, that the option for an NCM trade would be granted to repay this in time vice money.  Again, this is only in certain circumstances.


----------



## ballz

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> My post was more in line with the education reimbursement than about the trade you were in.  It's pretty much that if you had gone into your second year of education and beyond where you would be on the hook financially to repay the tuition and salary, that the option for an NCM trade would be granted to repay this in time vice money.  Again, this is only in certain circumstances.



Roger that, my post was meant as an add-on "food for thought" to yours, not a correction of your post or anything like that.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

ballz said:
			
		

> Roger that, my post was meant as an add-on "food for thought" to yours, not a correction of your post or anything like that.


That's how I took it, just figured I'd clarify my words.


----------



## abejackson

I recently joined the airforce and VIE of 7 years. 
But I signed up for a 5-year contract. What is the significance of VIE?
Thanks.


----------



## vonGarvin

I'm sorry, when I see VIE, I think "VI E", and therefore, this:


----------



## PMedMoe

A VIE is a Variable Initial Engagement.  From forces.ca:  " The length of a VIE varies depending upon the operational requirements of each occupation and the training time required for an individual to become fully employable."

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/faq-101

Also from forces.ca:  "Enrol in the Canadian Forces through the Non-Commissioned Member Subsidized Education Plan (NCM SEP), and you will receive free college tuition, books and academic equipment in addition to a salary with benefits. Finally, you will have a guaranteed job upon graduation.  In return for having your college education paid for, you will have to serve a number of years calculated on the basis of two months' service for each month of subsidized education. For example, if you receive paid college education over the course of 4 semesters, you will have to serve in the military for at least 32 months upon completing the program (each semester is four months long)."

http://www.forces.ca/en/page/paideducation-96

You did enter via NCM-SEP, did you not?

I would have asked about this when I signed the contract.....  Just my  :2c:


----------



## DAA

abejackson said:
			
		

> I recently joined the airforce and VIE of 7 years.
> But I signed up for a 5-year contract. What is the significance of VIE?
> Thanks.



If you joined as an AVS Tech (Unskilled) you would have signed a 5 year VIE.  However, as an AVS Tech (NCM SEP) the TOS is a 7 year VIE.

As mentioned above, a VIE is basically another word for "contract".


----------



## abejackson

Thanks for the replies. 

Yes. I joined as a NCM-SEP. 
This was in my acceptance email.

- Enrolment as 00136 AVS TECH in the uniform of Air with a VIE of 7 years and Obligatory Service of 2 month for every 1 month of subsidized education.

By the time I will graduate, I will have spent 18 months in school. So I guess that make 36 months of mandatory service in the Airforce.


This was taken from the CF website.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 Regular Force Officers and Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs) – Must have sufficient time to complete a Variable Initial Engagement (VIE) for the occupation to which they are enrolled prior to reaching the compulsory retirement age (CRA) of 60. The length of a VIE varies depending upon the operational requirements of each occupation and the training time required for an individual to become fully employable. If you would like to know the length of the VIE for the occupation(s) you are interested in we can assist you.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 Based on the description, it says it would take 7 years for me to become fully employable. This is where I get confused. Don't I go work as a AVS tech right after  I graduate?


----------



## Occam

abejackson said:
			
		

> Based on the description, it says it would take 7 years for me to become fully employable. This is where I get confused. Don't I go work as a AVS tech right after  I graduate?



I'm going to take a stab here, but my guess is that it would take seven years to not only take the required classroom training, but to also have the required hands-on OJT to qualify as an AME - that is, someone who can work independently without having direct supervision by a qualified AME.


----------



## BC Old Guy

abejackson said:
			
		

> This was taken from the CF website.
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> Regular Force Officers and Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs) – Must have sufficient time to complete a Variable Initial Engagement (VIE) for the occupation to which they are enrolled prior to reaching the compulsory retirement age (CRA) of 60. The length of a VIE varies depending upon the operational requirements of each occupation and the training time required for an individual to become fully employable. If you would like to know the length of the VIE for the occupation(s) you are interested in we can assist you.
> _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Based on the description, it says it would take 7 years for me to become fully employable. This is where I get confused. Don't I go work as a AVS tech right after  I graduate?



The length of the VIE is developed from the length of time at the school, time required at the unit / on the floor to develop the skills learned in school, and time as a fully qualified technician, which is a return on investment of the training time/cost.  So, it would not take 7 years to become fully employable, because during some of that 7 years, you will be expected to be working as a fully employable technician.

BCOG


----------



## angelaakimm

I've been wondering what you do during the 3-5 years of obligatory service after graduation of RMC or civilian University? Do you go in as the job (Intelligence Officer) you applied for during RMC application process or are you sent in the front lines as a solider? 
P.S this is for the ROTP


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## brihard

During your summers between school years you would train in the officer classification (trade) you chose. So Intelligence Officers would learn how to be IntOs. Infantry Officers would learn how to command an infantry platoon. Pilots would learn how to fly, etc. during your owed service you would work in your trade. 

I hope intelligence officer was just a hypothetical example on your part?


----------



## MJP

angelaakimm said:
			
		

> I've been wondering what you do during the 3-5 years of obligatory service after graduation of RMC or civilian University? Do you go in as the job (Intelligence Officer) you applied for during RMC application process or are you sent in the front lines as a solider?
> P.S this is for the ROTP



You do a job in the trade that you belong too if you are fully trained.  If you are not fully trained then you complete your training and then do your trade job.  Every officer trade generally has a baseline job/career path that you do for you to gain experience in your trade.


----------



## angelaakimm

So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.


----------



## dimsum

angelaakimm said:
			
		

> So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.



You will be training or employed as an Intelligence Officer, or whatever trade you accepted.  However, if you are needed to fill sandbags during a national emergency, for example, and your unit lets you go, then you could be tasked to do that as well.


----------



## Lumber

angelaakimm said:
			
		

> So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.



Sure, everyone of us could theoretically be used as a "foot soldier", but that's not going to happen. If you are accepted into the ROTP program as an Intelligence Officer, then an IntO you shall be. The people of Canada just paid roughly $120,000 for you to get a degree (getting paid while so doing), there are going to want you to use your degree and do the job of an IntO. There are a few confusing aspects about "Obligatory Service" of which you should be aware. I will try and describe them.

1. When you enroll, you will be given an initial contract of 12 years (13 for some trades). This is know as your Variable Initial Engagement (VIE). The first 4 years will be spent at University, meaning when you grauate, you will have 8 (or 9) years left on your contract.

2. The Canadian taxpayer is paying for your Univeristy education. The Obligatory Service is meant to pay the Canadian Taxpayer back through service. It is calculated as 2 months of service for every 1 month of subsidized education, thus 8 months in a school year x 4 years = 32 months x 2 months = 64 months = 5.3 years Obligatory Service.

3. Obligatory service is not conscription. You are not legally required to serve your Obligatory service. Even if you enroll in ROTP and get a degree fully subsidized, you can start your release paperwork and release from the Canadian Armed Forces on Graduation day. The thing is, since you haven't paid the subsidized education back with service, you will have to pay it back with cash. I know a few guys who did this just because they wanted to get a degree from RMC, and Mom and Dad had $80,000 cash sitting around to pay the government back after graduation.


----------



## George Wallace

angelaakimm said:
			
		

> So I signed up for the ROTP and I wish to get into a civilian university and earn a degree in Mathematics and Business Administration and go into Information Technology. For the ROTP, I applied for the Intelligence Officer position. I thought that the 5 years obligatory service after graduation (if you have paid university) that you would be able towork in your field but if needed as a foot soldier, they are legally allowed to make you a soldier. I'm just hearing many different stories from different people and I just wanted to clear this up.



You do realize that ROTP is a program sponsored by the Department of National Defence.  If you are accepted, you are enrolled into the Canadian Armed Forces as an Officer Cadet in one of the three Elements: Land, Sea, or Air (Army, Navy or Air Force).  As such you WILL BE a 'soldier', 'sailor' or an 'airman' (Sorry. Not PC).  During your obligatory service you WILL BE employed as a 'soldier', 'sailor' or 'airman' who as an officer will command persons under you and be employed wherever the Canadian Armed Forces deems it necessary.  

So, if you are to become an officer in the Army, then you will be employed as a 'soldier' in command of other 'soldiers'.  If in the Navy, you will be employed as a 'sailor' in charge of 'sailors'.  Same for the Air Force.  As this is the Canadian Armed Forces, you most likely will, as an officer, be 'commanding' a mix of 'soldiers', 'sailors' and 'airmen' (sorry not PC) sometimes over your career.


----------



## limestone13

Greetings,

Due to unforeseen circumstances and other variables, I have decided to VR from the reg force. I was ROTP for 3 years ( Mil Col) and had transferred from NCM --hence my pay stayed the same while I was in school. I have not received any trade training and am currently waiting for paper work. Yesterday I was given a figure of the amount I owe and, to say the least, it is drastically higher than other colleagues of mine who have VR'd as well. Does anyone know how the pay back is calculated? My release section appears to be clueless and am having a hard time getting answers. 

Also, is it possible to apply my pension to the amount I owe? Again, this has happened with my colleagues but my release section has no idea.

I have looked through these forums and conducted research. Apart from the very general and vague description of what is owed etc. I cant find numbers or calculations. I really hope some of you can shed some light on this topic. I thank you for your time and look forward to reading your comments.


----------



## Lumber

Nothing official, but I was told it was the education costs (tuition, books, supplies, etc) as well as the salary paid to you during the school year (you get to keep what they paid you during the summer training months). Not sure if this is true, but if you we're being paid Pte/Cpl pay during the school year, this might explain why it's so high. Again, this is just hearsay. Can I ask (possibly by PM) what 3 years of ROTP is apparently going to cost you?


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## dapaterson

A quick check for "Obligatory Service" identified DAOD 5049-1 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5049-1.page), which in turn steers you to QR&O 15.07 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-15.page#cha-015-07) for the way the calculation is made.



> 15.07 - VOLUNTARY RELEASE AFTER SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION OR TRAINING
> 
> (1) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of article 15.02 (Release as of Right), the Chief of the Defence Staff may prescribe those courses in respect of which an officer or non-commissioned member who has attended on full-time paid duty shall not be released on his request under Item 4 of the table to article 15.01 (Release of Officers and Non-commissioned Members), unless he has served the minimum period as determined by the Chief of the Defence Staff, which period shall not be of less than 12 months duration.
> 
> (2) Where in the opinion of the Chief of Defence Staff special and unforeseen circumstances require that an officer or non-commissioned member apply for his release prior to the completion of the minimum period of service referred to in paragraph (1), the member's release may be approved if the exigencies of the service permit; however, approval of release for other than compassionate reasons is contingent on the member refunding all or a portion of the cost incurred by the public, determined under paragraph (3), for his attendance at courses as prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff.
> 
> (3) Where under paragraph (2) all or a portion of the cost incurred by the public is to be reimbursed, the amount of that reimbursement shall be:
> a.the total cost incurred by the public in providing the course, if the release occurs within 12 months of the commencement of the required minimum period of service; or
> b.that part of the cost incurred by the public that is the equivalent in ratio of the number of months still to be served (part of a month being reckoned as a full month), to the total number of months of the minimum period of service, if the release occurs within that required minimum period of service but more than 12 months after commencement of that period.
> 
> (4) The cost incurred by the public on which reimbursement shall be based shall be:
> a.the amount paid by the Crown either directly to the institution providing the instruction or by reimbursement of the officer or non-commissioned member for fees or any other costs arising out of or attributable to his attendance under instruction, but in the case of an officer attending a Canadian Military College the amount shall be the fees and expenses as prescribed in the Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Military Colleges; and
> b.except for any period during which the member performed normal service duties, pay and allowances including the rate of subsistence allowance for his rank and status, whether in issue or not, applicable from time to time in the period for which he attended the course, but not including i.transportation and travelling expenses provided to send him and his dependents, furniture and effects to or from the course,
> ii.any assisted leave transportation benefits extended to him, or
> iii.income tax deductions applicable to that period.
> 
> 
> (5) Notwithstanding this article, the Minister may authorize a reduction in the portion to be refunded by the officer or non-commissioned member to such reasonable part of the cost incurred by the public as he may consider appropriate, having regard to any special and unforeseen circumstances.
> 
> (G)


----------



## mariomike

limestone13 said:
			
		

> Yesterday I was given a figure of the amount I owe and, to say the least, it is drastically higher than other colleagues of mine who have VR'd as well.



For future reference, perhaps this discussion will be merged with,

Voluntary Release after Subsidized Education  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/108552.0



			
				rfell said:
			
		

> My release is contingent on the repayment figure, I have no problem repaying ~$20,000 dollars if it means I can release, but anything greater and I will have to hang around.


----------



## Calvillo

Lumber said:
			
		

> 1. When you enroll, you will be given an initial contract of 12 years (13 for some trades). This is know as your Variable Initial Engagement (VIE). The first 4 years will be spent at University, meaning when you grauate, you will have 8 (or 9) years left on your contract.



Can you please expound on this VIE? Does this mean that after 4 years at the College and 5 years Obligatory Service an Officer still needs to serve in the Forces for another 3 or 4 years?


----------



## sidemount

When you are done your obligitory service you are still under a contract. However you can still release if you like...it just takes some time. You are no longer have a financial obligation to pay back for school if you decide to release.


----------



## Lumber

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Can you please expound on this VIE? Does this mean that after 4 years at the College and 5 years Obligatory Service an Officer still needs to serve in the Forces for another 3 or 4 years?



Yes.


----------



## Calvillo

Is there any obligation to serve as an enlisted if one fails to complete RMCC and receive commission?


----------



## Blackadder1916

Calvillo said:
			
		

> Is there any obligation to serve as an enlisted if one fails to complete RMCC and receive commission?



I will attribute your use of the term "enlisted" to your ignorance of the subject and refrain from chastising you.  "Enlisted" is an Americanism; Canadians don't enlist, they enrol. The official terminology for soldiers who are not officers is "Non-Commissioned Members" (NCMs); for those of us who are past it, it used to be "Other Ranks" or "Men".

The reference for obligatory service is:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5049-1.page

That is only the starting point; the reference for ROTP (as listed in the references of the above) is CFAO 9-12.  CFAOs are no longer being amended nor are they available on the internet (only available internally).  A copy is, however, available on the wayback machine http://web.archive.org/web/20051228112450/http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-12_e.asp .  The portion of that CFAO applicable to your question is:



> ACADEMIC TRAINING
> 
> 36.    Academic Standards. To be eligible for continued financial assistance
> an officer cadet of the ROTP must maintain an academic standard
> satisfactory to both the officer cadet's academic institution and to NDHQ.
> Where necessary, arrangements will be made for writing supplemental
> examinations (see paragraph 39).
> 
> 37.    Academic Reports. Commandants of CMCs and ULOs shall forward term,
> final and supplemental examination results to NDHQ/DPCO for all members of
> the ROTP. If it is considered that an officer cadet is not making
> sufficient progress to warrant continued subsidization, the commandant of a
> CMC or ULO, as appropriate, shall forward a full report to NDHQ/DPCO.
> 
> 38.    Unsatisfactory Academic Results. The following provisions apply to an
> officer cadet under the ROTP who fails to maintain a satisfactory academic
> standard:
> 
> a.   permission to repeat an academic year or up to two academic
> terms, at his/her own expense, may be requested provided the
> member has not previously failed and repeated an academic year or
> two academic terms. Applications to repeat shall be forwarded to
> NDHQ/DPCO for approval and must be supported by the
> recommendation of the commandant of the appropriate CMC or the
> appropriate ULO;
> 
> b.   an officer cadet attending a civilian academic institution who
> incurs a credit deficiency by failing or dropping one or more
> courses, thus requiring one or more additional academic terms to
> resolve the deficiency, must do so at the officer cadet's
> expense. During such a period, the officer cadet will be subject
> to the provisions of paragraph 35;
> 
> c.   an officer cadet who is not recommended to repeat an academic
> year or term, or fails a repeat year or term, or is required to
> withdraw from an academic institution, may be considered for --
> 
> (1)  continued military training under the OCTP,
> 
> (2)  service as a NCM, or
> 
> (3)  release from the CF;
> 
> d.   an officer cadet who refuses to repeat an academic year or term
> may apply for one of the following:
> 
> (1)  training under the OCTP,
> 
> (2)  service as a NCM, or
> 
> (3)  voluntary release from the CF in accordance with paragraphs
> 26 and 27;
> 
> An officer cadet who refuses to apply for any of the above
> options may be ordered to full-time service as an officer cadet
> pursuant to paragraph 28; and
> 
> e.   notwithstanding subparagraphs a, b and c, an officer cadet who is
> not acceptable for further training or for whom there is no
> military requirement to warrant retention, may be compulsorily
> released.
> 
> 39.    Supplemental Examinations. Fees for supplemental examinations will
> not be paid by DND. When necessary, however, an officer cadet will be
> excused military training in order to write such examinations. Where the
> university requires that the supplemental examinations be written at a
> place other than that where the officer cadet is training and before the
> military training is completed, the commanding officer (CO) of the unit
> where the officer cadet is training is authorized to return the member to
> the university at public expense on approval of NDHQ/DPCO.


----------



## Calvillo

Apologies. As I explained in the other thread, I am much more learned on the matters of U.S. Military than Canadian, for a number of reasons.

Thank you for the answer.


----------



## justin9

I have tried searching along the words of; time commitment, time owed, officer reserve, but to no avail. My wording is probably poor. I know I could have spent more time looking this up, but I currently don't have a lot of time because I'm trying to catch this summer's CAP course. Please guide me to the information.

I am wondering if there is time of service needed to pay back after serving and being trained as an officer in the CAF, for example, maybe after being trained after Phase 3, or Phase 4? I ask because I have heard Phase 4 in the reserve takes almost a year. That makes me think, if the CAF gives a member training for that long, means there is time commitment or needed to be paid back of service. 

Hopefully my choice of words is not too poor with the paid/loan thing.

Thank you

To the people who reads this and do not know what CAP and Phase 3 or 4 are, they are courses needed to be taken to progress as an officer in the CAF, reserve. CAP and Phase 3 are in the summer, and Phase 4 is almost a year long, so you have to either be graduated already, or take time off school, or your full-time job if you already have a degree.


----------



## ModlrMike

There is no provision for obligatory service in the Reserve, as far as I know. Occupation training does not incur a requirement to serve for a specified period. What you are thinking of applies to subsidized education for members of the Regular Force.


----------

