# 3PPCLI to lose Airborne Capability



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Geoff Tyrell" <paraprimadonna@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:29:44 PST*
3PPCLI‘s Alpha Company may lose its parachute capability on return from its 
Bosnia tour of duty.  Over the last 5 years, our airborne capability with 
damn near everything elsehas been slashed repeatedly.  From a Regiment to 3 
companies, and from that to maybe 2.  240 paratroopers is ludicrous as an 
airborne force.  We need at least a battalion.
Any thoughts?
Totis Viribus
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gordan Dundas <dundas@prairie.ca>* on *Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:35:48 -0600*
What we could really use is an airborne brigade plus a couple of light infantry
brigades to go with our three mech infantry brigades.
But since we barly have enough airlift for a battalion it‘s not likely to happen
is it?
Geoff Tyrell wrote:
> 3PPCLI‘s Alpha Company may lose its parachute capability on return from its
> Bosnia tour of duty.  Over the last 5 years, our airborne capability with
> damn near everything elsehas been slashed repeatedly.  From a Regiment to 3
> companies, and from that to maybe 2.  240 paratroopers is ludicrous as an
> airborne force.  We need at least a battalion.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Totis Viribus
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Patrick Cain <patrickcain@snappingturtle.net>* on *Sat, 26 Feb 2000 02:46:35 -0500*
At 23:35 25/02/2000 -0600, Gordan Dundas wrote:
>What we could really use is an airborne brigade plus a couple of light
infantry
>brigades to go with our three mech infantry brigades.
>But since we barly have enough airlift for a battalion it‘s not likely to
happen
>is it?
>
It‘s that giddy pre-budget time: might as well dream. 
This ties in with a recent conversation I had, pleasing but not realistic,
about what we could do with five brigades. The results, after a couple of
pints, were:
1 CMBGHeavy armour Edmonton/Wainwright
2 CBGLight/airbornePetawawa
3 CBGShoreline opsGagetown/Aldershot
4 CBGArctic and mountain warfareChilliwack
5 CBGHeliborne opsValcartier
A doctrinal dog‘s breakfast, but not all that different from what the Dutch
do. The concept would be that militia in each army area LFWA/2 would
train to either augment or to expand to replicate their corresponding
regular army unit. 
Patrick Cain
voice: 416 539-0939
fax:    416 515-3698
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Darth Vader <hazzatude@yahoo.com>* on *Sat, 26 Feb 2000 00:37:24 -0800 (PST)*
--- Geoff Tyrell  wrote:
> 3PPCLI‘s Alpha Company may lose its parachute
> capability on return from its 
> Bosnia tour of duty.  Over the last 5 years, our
> airborne capability with 
> damn near everything elsehas been slashed
> repeatedly.  From a Regiment to 3 
> companies, and from that to maybe 2.  240
> paratroopers is ludicrous as an 
> airborne force.  We need at least a battalion.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Totis Viribus
>
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>  http://www.hotmail.com 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *ghallman <ghallman@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Sat, 26 Feb 2000 13:55:21 -0400*
The present state of our military really depresses me.  I‘ve been in the
militia for a year and a half so I don‘t really don‘t have the view of the
military as say, a RCR or PPCLI soldier but my view from the "outside" is
rather discouraging.  In my short time in the military, I can‘t say that
anything I‘ve seen have made me want to make a career in the Canadian
military, when most of the comments you hear are complaints it doesn‘t
create an aspiration to be all you can be.  All I‘ve really wanted to be is
a career soldier, I know I‘m capable of going far but there really doesn‘t
seem to be anywhere to go.  Think about the opportunities available to say
an American soldier in the infantry.  Light or Mech infantry -- then
Airborne -- then Ranger -- then Special Forces -- then......well Delta
Force but not bloody likely.  The only thing the Canadian Armed Forces has
going for it seems to be its pay rates but pays only goes so far when you
hate your job because you‘ve been doing the same damn thing for 10 years
with not much chance of advancement.  This supposed loss of 3PPCLI‘s
parachute capability just really compounds the problem, but did you not
expect it?  Civilian opinion and our own opinion of the military is rather
negative.  Just when we seem to think it can‘t get an worst they give us
some new Gore-Tex kit, a grenade launcher and new APCs then cut the
training budget.  Well you can give anyone off the street a uniform and a
weapon, from what I‘ve heard it was or is our training that sets Canadian
soldiers apart from the average soldier of another country‘s armed forces.
As to Patrick Cain‘s idea, yeah that sounds great and it really is a nice
dream but it would take World War III for that to happen.  While we‘re
dreaming why don‘t we create a Canadian Royal Marines Corp.  All these
ideas are great but the money isn‘t there and neither are the soldiers.
>From what I‘ve seen from other militia soldiers in my region I don‘ think
the majority are willing to train hard enough to augment, expand, or
replicate their corresponding reg-force unit.  There just aren‘t enough
civies out there looking for a life in the Infantry either.  Everyone that
I‘ve talked to think we suck, and I live in the Maritimes.  Why would
anyone want to join an army that they think sucks.  I think the general
opinion in this country would be different if we would of kicked some *** 
during the Gulf War but we guarded the rear instead.  I know this isn‘t the
soldiers fault, I think or like to think that most of the infantryman we
sent over would of loved to be out in the desert kicking some ***  but the
political will just wasn‘t there.  I guess my brain just kinda exploded and
I‘m probably going to get charged or something but I guess I just had to
say this **** to get it off my mind.  There are a lot of other things I‘d
like to discuss with someone who shares some of my opinions.        
At 07:29 PM 25/02/2000 PST, you wrote:
>3PPCLI‘s Alpha Company may lose its parachute capability on return from its 
>Bosnia tour of duty.  Over the last 5 years, our airborne capability with 
>damn near everything elsehas been slashed repeatedly.  From a Regiment to 3 
>companies, and from that to maybe 2.  240 paratroopers is ludicrous as an 
>airborne force.  We need at least a battalion.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Totis Viribus
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Barry McCann <BMcCann42@excite.com>* on *Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:18:39 -0800 (PST)*
I‘m not in the military yet, but it has always been a dream of mine to go
into the airborne, but hearing things like this just stick in my gut!  The
airborne are a necessity to any military and to continually remove it means
that we are losing a valuable and necessary aspect of our modern military.  
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The Griffith Family" <griffith@mnsi.net>* on *Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:57:34 -0500*
I was thinking the excact same thing .. I‘m glad you said it .. you actually
said it for both of us .. Shawn Barber
> The present state of our military really depresses me.  I‘ve been in the
> militia for a year and a half so I don‘t really don‘t have the view of the
> military as say, a RCR or PPCLI soldier but my view from the "outside" is
> rather discouraging.  In my short time in the military, I can‘t say that
> anything I‘ve seen have made me want to make a career in the Canadian
> military, when most of the comments you hear are complaints it doesn‘t
> create an aspiration to be all you can be.  All I‘ve really wanted to be
is
> a career soldier, I know I‘m capable of going far but there really doesn‘t
> seem to be anywhere to go.  Think about the opportunities available to say
> an American soldier in the infantry.  Light or Mech infantry -- then
> Airborne -- then Ranger -- then Special Forces -- then......well Delta
> Force but not bloody likely.  The only thing the Canadian Armed Forces has
> going for it seems to be its pay rates but pays only goes so far when you
> hate your job because you‘ve been doing the same damn thing for 10 years
> with not much chance of advancement.  This supposed loss of 3PPCLI‘s
> parachute capability just really compounds the problem, but did you not
> expect it?  Civilian opinion and our own opinion of the military is rather
> negative.  Just when we seem to think it can‘t get an worst they give us
> some new Gore-Tex kit, a grenade launcher and new APCs then cut the
> training budget.  Well you can give anyone off the street a uniform and a
> weapon, from what I‘ve heard it was or is our training that sets
Canadian
> soldiers apart from the average soldier of another country‘s armed forces.
> As to Patrick Cain‘s idea, yeah that sounds great and it really is a nice
> dream but it would take World War III for that to happen.  While we‘re
> dreaming why don‘t we create a Canadian Royal Marines Corp.  All these
> ideas are great but the money isn‘t there and neither are the soldiers.
> >From what I‘ve seen from other militia soldiers in my region I don‘ think
> the majority are willing to train hard enough to augment, expand, or
> replicate their corresponding reg-force unit.  There just aren‘t enough
> civies out there looking for a life in the Infantry either.  Everyone that
> I‘ve talked to think we suck, and I live in the Maritimes.  Why would
> anyone want to join an army that they think sucks.  I think the general
> opinion in this country would be different if we would of kicked some *** 
> during the Gulf War but we guarded the rear instead.  I know this isn‘t
the
> soldiers fault, I think or like to think that most of the infantryman we
> sent over would of loved to be out in the desert kicking some ***  but the
> political will just wasn‘t there.  I guess my brain just kinda exploded
and
> I‘m probably going to get charged or something but I guess I just had to
> say this **** to get it off my mind.  There are a lot of other things I‘d
> like to discuss with someone who shares some of my opinions.
>
>
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *J Wilson <jbwilson@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>* on *Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:36:33 -0700 (MST)*
In response to a couple of topics that have been discussed on the emails
lately I have some comments.  Having served in the US Army 75th Ranger
Reg‘t and now in the Canadian Army I feel that Airborne and elite forces
play a vital and instrumental role in any army.  Firstly, they raise the
standard, giving troops something to strive for, without it, we would be
happy with the minimun ex. MLOC Just like pro sport raises the standard
of amateur sportwithout the NHL to strive for the level of play of most
juniors would be far below what it is today.
Secondly they are an awesome recruiting tool.  No onewants to join a
military where you arent considered to be "the best" by the rest of the
country.  In the US, the majority of people in Basic were there to be
"Delta operators".  99 of them realize that it sucks however and go to
leg units.  It does get however a very high level of recruit into the
army.
thirdly airborne units have a different psyche that "regular" units.  A
get the job done attitude, higher PT levels, a model for the rest of the
army.
I feel that the Canadian mil is forgetting a number of these factors and
wishes to create a "business work force"and is moving away from what
makes effective soldiers and armies. Meanwhile in the hardcore
business community companies like IBM and Microsoft are rewarding their
employees more for increased fitness levels than the Cdn army is.
Not to diss the Canadian Army however, as I feel that the average soldier
here is far better trained in individual soldering and mentally sharp than
your average American
soldier.
 JW
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Patrick Cain wrote:
> At 23:35 25/02/2000 -0600, Gordan Dundas wrote:
> >What we could really use is an airborne brigade plus a couple of light
> infantry
> >brigades to go with our three mech infantry brigades.
> >But since we barly have enough airlift for a battalion it‘s not likely to
> happen
> >is it?
> >
> 
> It‘s that giddy pre-budget time: might as well dream. 
> 
> This ties in with a recent conversation I had, pleasing but not realistic,
> about what we could do with five brigades. The results, after a couple of
> pints, were:
> 
> 1 CMBGHeavy armour Edmonton/Wainwright
> 2 CBGLight/airbornePetawawa
> 3 CBGShoreline opsGagetown/Aldershot
> 4 CBGArctic and mountain warfareChilliwack
> 5 CBGHeliborne opsValcartier
> 
> A doctrinal dog‘s breakfast, but not all that different from what the Dutch
> do. The concept would be that militia in each army area LFWA/2 would
> train to either augment or to expand to replicate their corresponding
> regular army unit. 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Cain
> 
> voice: 416 539-0939
> fax:    416 515-3698
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Timothy Gunn" <gunntimo@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:37:19 PST*
3PPCLI‘s Alpha Company may lose its parachute capability on return
from its
Bosnia tour of duty.  Over the last 5 years, our airborne capability
with
damn near everything elsehas been slashed repeatedly.  From a
Regiment to 3
companies, and from that to maybe 2.  240 paratroopers is ludicrous
as an
airborne force.  We need at least a battalion.
THATS BULL ****. They shouldn‘t be doing that.
Timothy Gunn
Opinions are like *******s. Everyone has one.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Timothy Gunn" <gunntimo@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:58:09 PST*
Your completely right. But I know for a fact that If we had another war Our 
military would improve. In both money and Strength.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gordan Dundas <dundas@prairie.ca>* on *Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:36:27 -0600*
In 93 based on the optempo for the past two years in a conversation with a
couple of people I know . We sat down and came up with a force structure based
on the apparent need as opposed to either historical or ideology based
structure which we now suffer under.
 The force would consist of a light infantry division, three mech. infantry
brigades, one armored brigade and one unconventional warfare brigade.This
sounds huge and it is by Canadian standards .However our force structure and
size has always been driven a perceived lack of need  in spite of the reality
that shows the opposite being true.
Patrick Cain wrote:
> At 23:35 25/02/2000 -0600, Gordan Dundas wrote:
> >What we could really use is an airborne brigade plus a couple of light
> infantry
> >brigades to go with our three mech infantry brigades.
> >But since we barly have enough airlift for a battalion it‘s not likely to
> happen
> >is it?
> >
>
> It‘s that giddy pre-budget time: might as well dream.
>
> This ties in with a recent conversation I had, pleasing but not realistic,
> about what we could do with five brigades. The results, after a couple of
> pints, were:
>
> 1 CMBG  Heavy armour                    Edmonton/Wainwright
> 2 CBG           Light/airborne                  Petawawa
> 3 CBG           Shoreline ops                   Gagetown/Aldershot
> 4 CBG           Arctic and mountain warfare     Chilliwack
> 5 CBG           Heliborne ops                   Valcartier
>
> A doctrinal dog‘s breakfast, but not all that different from what the Dutch
> do. The concept would be that militia in each army area LFWA/2 would
> train to either augment or to expand to replicate their corresponding
> regular army unit.
>
> Patrick Cain
>
> voice: 416 539-0939
> fax:    416 515-3698
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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