# New Cadpat



## bllusc (27 Mar 2019)

New intermediate cadpat uniform as seen on CAF reddit.


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## dimsum (27 Mar 2019)

The comments are gold.  I swear that subreddit's comments are distilled from the salt of 150 Cpls in Shilo.


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## Rheostatic (27 Mar 2019)

The same photo is turning up in briefings by senior Army CWOs. This is what the Army's getting instead of multicam, apparently.


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## Haggis (27 Mar 2019)

I'm so glad I retired last year.


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## dimsum (27 Mar 2019)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> The same photo is turning up in briefings by senior Army CWOs. This is what the Army's getting instead of multicam, apparently.



Just the Army?  I guess it'll solve the issue of CADPAT stocks when 1/2 of the people using it don't need it anymore.


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## brihard (27 Mar 2019)

Looks like it could be an effective pattern. I always get CADPAT TW was way too green outside of a coniferous forest.

I just wish they could make a uniform with good fit and features.


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## Haggis (27 Mar 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I just wish they could make a uniform with good fit and features.



You're not asking for much!  Even if they did, your size would probably be out of stock.


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## Quirky (27 Mar 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Just the Army?  I guess it'll solve the issue of CADPAT stocks when 1/2 of the people using it don't need it anymore.



Cold lake will have lots of stock in 4-6 months....



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> I just wish they could make a uniform with good fit and features.



Tender from Lululemon? Canadian company and super comfy clothing.


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## dimsum (27 Mar 2019)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Cold lake will have lots of stock in 4-6 months....



How so?



			
				Quirky said:
			
		

> Tender from Lululemon? Canadian company and super comfy clothing.



I think you have a really optimistic view of what the CAF would look like in Lulu  :-X


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## dapaterson (27 Mar 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I think you have a really optimistic view of what the CAF would look like in Lulu  :-X



Nope.


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## dimsum (27 Mar 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Nope.



Well, that's enough internet for today.


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## Haggis (27 Mar 2019)

dapaterson, you realize I have to live with that mental image now until my EAP office opens up at 8:00 AM tomorrow.  Thanks. :'(


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Mar 2019)

bllusc said:
			
		

> New intermediate cadpat uniform as seen on CAF reddit.



Not enough velcro hook-and-loop fasteners...I only counted 14 on the shirt.


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## McG (28 Mar 2019)

There will be a trial done by the eFP BG in one of the next few rotos. If it goes well, this may be the new CAF standard.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Mar 2019)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> The same photo is turning up in briefings by senior Army CWOs. This is what the Army's getting instead of multicam, apparently.



The perfect compromise between a pattern that works (Multi-cam) and one that doesn't (CADPAT TW) for the COE? 

How Canadian  ;D


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## Haggis (28 Mar 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The perfect compromise between a pattern that works (Multi-cam) and one that doesn't (CADPAT TW) for the COE?



It looks like Multicam and MARPAT had drunken sex while a Canadian tailor watched from the corner.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Mar 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The perfect compromise between a pattern that works (Multi-cam) and one that doesn't (CADPAT TW) for the COE?
> 
> How Canadian  ;D



It's perfect  :rofl:

I hope the sizing remains the same.


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## medicineman (28 Mar 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The perfect compromise between a pattern that works (Multi-cam) and one that doesn't (CADPAT TW) for the COE?
> 
> How Canadian  ;D



To make it truly Canadian, the stuff has to be made by the highest bidder in Quebec, that will go well over budget and be 10 years late in delivery...whence the stuff will fall apart.

MM


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## Staff Weenie (28 Mar 2019)

Well, I'm not overly optimistic....

After 20 years of the 'Clothe The Soldier' project debacle, I still don't have all of the items I'm technically entitled to. I don't have enough time left until CRA 60 to get all new items.....

And Medicineman - the contract has to go to a mom & pop operation that has never produced a stitch of clothing before, but believes they've got what it takes.


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## medicineman (28 Mar 2019)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> And Medicineman - the contract has to go to a mom & pop operation in Quebec that has never produced a stitch of clothing before, but believes they've got what it takes.


FTFY.


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## Fabius (28 Mar 2019)

I don’t mind the pattern... but this is dumb.  
I think we would be better off with actual Multicam as it’s in effect becoming a 5 eyes standard which means COTS is easy for both individuals and the institution vs yet another one off boutique pattern just for us. 
As for the eFP trial what are they trialing and what is the measure of sucesss? 
Camouflage ability? According to who and compared to what other pattern in what other area?
Cost? Okay sure weird to have a TF do that so no. 
What exactly are we testing? Popularity?
Oh by the way what will the trial consist of? Just the shirt and pants or everything to include the helmets, vests, armour, rain gear etc. If not then any test of its camouflage effectiveness is mute. 

Sorry just a bit annoyed with yet another stand alone good idea fairy.


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## MilEME09 (28 Mar 2019)

It seems more money then its worth, new tac vests, helmet covers, jackets, rain gear, pants, etc.... The cost is huge and I feel there are much bigger things that could use funding then this dumb project


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## medicineman (29 Mar 2019)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> It seems more money then its worth, new tac vests, helmet covers, jackets, rain gear, pants, etc.... The cost is huge and I feel there are much bigger things that could use funding then this dumb project



Heretic!!!  An Inquisitor will be inviting you for a chat in the near future...

MM


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## OldSolduer (29 Mar 2019)

Actually the current CADPAT is produced in Winnipeg and the company is owned by a gentleman who is also the Hon LCol of The Royal Winnipeg Rifles.


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## Jarnhamar (29 Mar 2019)

What's going to happen to all those brand new expensive electronic chest rigs in cadpat tw we started issuing?


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Mar 2019)

Fabius said:
			
		

> I don’t mind the pattern... but this is dumb.
> I think we would be better off with actual Multicam as it’s in effect becoming a 5 eyes standard which means COTS is easy for both individuals and the institution vs yet another one off boutique pattern just for us.



Then..what will the CANSOF folks wear?   :waiting:

They can't wear the same operational dress and...everyone else!


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## Staff Weenie (29 Mar 2019)

EITS - I know.....think of poor CANSOF. Now that we can all grow beards, and buy our own boots, if we get Multicam we will push CANSOF to new extremes!


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## dapaterson (29 Mar 2019)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> EITS - I know.....think of poor CANSOF. Now that we can all grow beards, and buy our own boots, if we get Multicam we will push CANSOF to new extremes!



If all that comes to pass, you'll be able to tell CANSOF apart - they'll be the clean-shaven ones wearing CADPAT.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Mar 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Then..what will the CANSOF folks wear?   :waiting:
> 
> They can't wear the same operational dress and...everyone else!



A good rumour to start: 'I hear that SOF is going to all OD green.'


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## dimsum (29 Mar 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> A good rumour to start: 'I hear that SOF is going to all OD green.'



That'll spin up the salty folks in the CAF subreddit.  I like it.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Mar 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> That'll spin up the salty folks in the CAF subreddit.  I like it.



You could link it to this scene, where the SOF guys are really evil/cool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksBZ5EPuXPM


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## FinnO25 (7 Apr 2019)

Released on ACIMS 

And for your viewing pleasure may I present, our new prototype uniforms. :rofl:


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Apr 2019)

Someone beat you to it!

https://army.ca/forums/threads/130089.0.html


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## QM (7 Apr 2019)

Anecdotally (I'm posted in Europe right now, where a few nations as well as the US troops wear Multicam), Denmark regrets moving from a green and black pattern to Multicam to save costs, and will replace their Multicam with either something else...... or go back to distinct uniforms for temperate and desert operations. Apparently they have found Multicam to be 'grossly ineffective' in the green woodlands of Denmark and Northern Europe. Source is a Danish LCol, and, as I say, it's anecdotal. I wonder what studies have been done on our new (very brown) prototype.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Apr 2019)

Log Offr said:
			
		

> Anecdotally (I'm posted in Europe right now, where a few nations as well as the US troops wear Multicam), Denmark regrets moving from a green and black pattern to Multicam to save costs, and will replace their Multicam with either something else...... or go back to distinct uniforms for temperate and desert operations. Apparently they have found Multicam to be 'grossly ineffective' in the green woodlands of Denmark and Northern Europe. Source is a Danish LCol, and, as I say, it's anecdotal. I wonder what studies have been done on our new (very brown) prototype.



I spent quite a bit of time in Denmark on NATO exercises. Their terrain is much like eastern Canada, especially 'farm belt' Ontario, so I see where they are coming from. 

Regardless, once you're on operations it's all academic as the sweat, mud and other grunge you collect on your uniform after a couple of days means that you really can't see the cam pattern anymore.


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## blacktriangle (7 Apr 2019)

I think the real question is, are you ready to see your first 300lb troop wearing this while they stand in line at Tim's or McD's? I think this pattern will look way better as a mumu than CADPAT 1.0. 

I'm personally stoked!  op:


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## childs56 (7 Apr 2019)

I never really understood why we left the OD cbt uniform for the Cadpat. The OD one fit the bill overall for general service. Worked well in most environments.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Apr 2019)

[quote author=CTD] *Worked well in most environments.*
[/quote]

It wouldn't have worked well where we did actual fighting IMO.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Apr 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It wouldn't have worked well where we did actual fighting IMO.



You mean NDHQ, right?


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## blacktriangle (7 Apr 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> You mean NDHQ, right?



The only thing being fought there is heart disease. Heart disease is winning.


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## Cloud Cover (7 Apr 2019)

Really. That's sad. Does the new Cadpat come with drawstrings and flexi waist bands?


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## childs56 (7 Apr 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It wouldn't have worked well where we did actual fighting IMO.


Israelis use a similar color and it works for them.


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## PuckChaser (7 Apr 2019)

Log Offr said:
			
		

> Anecdotally (I'm posted in Europe right now, where a few nations as well as the US troops wear Multicam), Denmark regrets moving from a green and black pattern to Multicam to save costs, and will replace their Multicam with either something else...... or go back to distinct uniforms for temperate and desert operations. Apparently they have found Multicam to be 'grossly ineffective' in the green woodlands of Denmark and Northern Europe. Source is a Danish LCol, and, as I say, it's anecdotal. I wonder what studies have been done on our new (very brown) prototype.



It doesn't matter what camouflage we go to anyway. CADPAT came out in what, 2002 (I got mine in 2003)? Its been almost 2 decades and we still haven't been able to order enough to keep common sizes in stock and we still have folks in 1982 pattern rucksacks and OD parkas.

I can't wait to see the CAF wearing CADPAT with buttons, CADPAT with button covers, CADPAT with button covers and velcro pockets, CADPAT with flat pockets and velcro pockets and this new camo pattern uniforms all walking around in the same unit like a real 1st world Army.

I know, I know. I got boots, beards and weed so I should STFU.  :facepalm:


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## Jarnhamar (7 Apr 2019)

CTD said:
			
		

> Israelis use a similar color and it works for them.



Fair enough. 

1. In 2018 Israel trailed a couple new uniform styles which moved away from solid od to camouflage patterns.  The trial was stopped and the primary reasons to stick with od for the time being appears to be that they were concerned about friendly fire as the uniforms they were trialing looked very similar to what Hamas and Hezbollah wear.

2. IDF have worn OD since their creation, one could easily suggest that their choice to remain in OD so long is for iconic and tradition reasons as it is effectiveness.

3. IDF didn't do so well in their last mix up. It has more to do with than uniforms of course but I personally don't hold them as some kind of combat standard. 

4. If you've ever seen first hand how Arabs react to whom they perceive are Jews you'll think twice about looking like the IDF if you deploy to Muslim countries.


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## OceanBonfire (7 May 2019)

> *CADPAT combat camouflage replacement options under consideration*
> 
> Article / May 7, 2019 / Project number: 19-0038
> 
> ...



http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/news-publications/national-news-details-no-menu.page?doc=cadpat-combat-camouflage-replacement-options-under-consideration/jvdyyyyb


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## bllusc (16 Sep 2019)

3 RCR wearing the new prototype cadpat


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## daftandbarmy (16 Sep 2019)

bllusc said:
			
		

> 3 RCR wearing the new prototype cadpat



Put a spike on the top of those helmets and you could call them a 'Pickelhaube'  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickelhaube


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## MilEME09 (16 Sep 2019)

It doesnt look to bad, would probably work better here in southern alberta the TW cadpat does.


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## Infanteer (16 Sep 2019)

Looks good to me.  Almost looks like MARPAT.  Prefer it to multicam.  At least this can still be said to be Canadian.  Just go for Coyote equipment and boots, and we're set.


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## midget-boyd91 (17 Sep 2019)

bllusc said:
			
		

> 3 RCR wearing the new prototype cadpat



It looks like when the first gen of CADPAT came out.....and faded,  being worn with a fresh new vest.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Put a spike on the top of those helmets and you could call them a 'Pickelhaube'
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickelhaube



Those helmets are horrible. They were originally intended to be helmets used with off-road vehicles and you would attach this giant jaw guard but morphed into cansof wanna be helmets. 

They fit super tight on the top of your head, almost like a yamaka. Don't fit peltors very well (whole reason for the ear cutout) and hard to take up a sight picture with those giant plastic jaw bone attachment clips hanging down.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Sep 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Those helmets are horrible. They were originally intended to be helmets used with off-road vehicles and you would attach this giant jaw guard but morphed into cansof wanna be helmets.
> 
> They fit super tight on the top of your head, almost like a yamaka. Don't fit peltors very well (whole reason for the ear cutout) and hard to take up a sight picture with those giant plastic jaw bone attachment clips hanging down.



So, in other words, they will be issued to the Infantry as soon as possible, right?  

If there's one piece of kit we already have that isn't awful, it's our current helmet IMHO.


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> If there's one piece of kit we already have that isn't awful, it's our current helmet IMHO.



That is definitely a glass half full way to look at things!   ;D


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## tomahawk6 (18 Sep 2019)

The Pickelhaube is still worn by Chile who were mentored by the Prussians. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adzg_iMg9Sc


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## OceanBonfire (19 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> So, in other words, they will be issued to the Infantry as soon as possible, right?
> 
> If there's one piece of kit we already have that isn't awful, it's our current helmet IMHO.



AFAIK, that is still the crew helmet. The new helmet replacing the current CG634 is the CM735:

https://www.janes.com/article/88827/dnd-takes-full-helmet-options-cs19d1


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## dimsum (22 Sep 2019)

Comd CA in new CADPAT(?)

https://www.facebook.com/CANArmy/photos/a.263398710418781/2402388899853074/?type=3&theater


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## dangerboy (22 Sep 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Comd CA in new CADPAT(?)
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/CANArmy/photos/a.263398710418781/2402388899853074/?type=3&theater



Both him and the Army SM have been issued it. Part of the IO campaign so that people who are not in Petawawa can see what it looks like.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Sep 2019)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Both him and the Army SM have been issued it. Part of the IO campaign so that people who are not in Petawawa can see what it looks like.



I've heard from someone doing the trial (not Comd CA...) that the unit trailing these uniforms were given them to deploy down south and they were told the style of uniform and camo they were issued isn't going to be the end product.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Sep 2019)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Both him and the Army SM have been issued it. Part of the IO campaign so that people who are not in Petawawa can see what it looks like.



Because you know, pictures don't help at all.

That reason is the lamest excuse of a 'reason'.  Just say "because I want to", not try to pass it off as 'because it is good for the troops'.  At least people could respect the honesty aspect...


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## Journeyman (22 Sep 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Just say "because I want to", not try to pass it off as 'because it is good for the troops'.  At least people could respect the honesty aspect...


     :
If you had even a vague clue about our Army Commander, you'd know that he's not remotely like that.  I have no doubt that it was the decision of some staff officer who thought it would be a good idea.

...but good use of the whiney 'all officers suck' template.   :not-again:


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## brihard (22 Sep 2019)

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> AFAIK, that is still the crew helmet. The new helmet replacing the current CG634 is the CM735:
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/88827/dnd-takes-full-helmet-options-cs19d1



I bought a crew profile IIIa ballistic helmet as part of my ‘active shooter’ kit for work. The difference in weight between the new generation of helmets versus the issued helmets is really impressive (and yes, I recognize the cutaway makes a difference- but it’s still lighter material). Nice to see that CAF aid taking the opportunity to move to a lighter one with equivalent performance. Now if only they could do that with plates...


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## OldSolduer (22 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :
> If you had even a vague clue about our Army Commander, you'd know that he's not remotely like that.  I have no doubt that it was the decision of some staff officer who thought it would be a good idea.
> 
> ...but good use of the whiney 'all officers suck' template.   :not-again:



Often the CO and RSM of the trialing unit are issued it as well. 
It’s basically for two reasons: the CO and RSM will experience the new stuff and can validate it. The second is to    Show the rest this form of dress is authorized.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Sep 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Often the CO and RSM of the trialing unit are issued it as well.
> It’s basically for two reasons: the CO and RSM will experience the new stuff and can validate it. The second is to    Show the rest this form of dress is authorized.



Of course. That explains Mike Rouleau


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## Poppa (22 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I bought a crew profile IIIa ballistic helmet as part of my ‘active shooter’ kit for work. The difference in weight between the new generation of helmets versus the issued helmets is really impressive (and yes, I recognize the cutaway makes a difference- but it’s still lighter material). Nice to see that CAF aid taking the opportunity to move to a lighter one with equivalent performance. Now if only they could do that with plates...



Wait...you guys buy your own helmets? How about plate carriers?


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## OldSolduer (22 Sep 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Of course. That explains Mike Rouleau



There’s special ones everywhere 😉


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## brihard (22 Sep 2019)

Poppa said:
			
		

> Wait...you guys buy your own helmets? How about plate carriers?



Plates are provided. Helmets are not, so a few of us buy our own.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Plates are provided. Helmets are not, so a few of us buy our own.



:Rant on:

OK, that's just dumb. You shouldn't have to buy your own body armour/ helmets!

:Rant off:


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## Jarnhamar (22 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Plates are provided. Helmets are not, so a few of us buy our own.



Do they tell you what your plates are rated for/against or is it like the CAF and that info kept secret (from the people wearing them)  ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :
> If you had even a vague clue about our Army Commander, you'd know that he's not remotely like that.  I have no doubt that it was the decision of some staff officer who thought it would be a good idea.
> 
> ...but good use of the whiney 'all officers suck' template.   :not-again:



This is a 'thing' that started long before him, unfortunately, but continues.  The previous Comd RCN did it recently as well.  

I didn't say anything about the LGen himself;  having met and spoke directly with him in a small group setting before his current position when he was D/Comd UN Command Korea.  I was left with the impression he was exceptionally intelligent, dedicated and professional.

Of course all officers don't suck, but hey, feel free to spin what people say however you want.  Doesn't change _my_ position, or message.  Are there some very senior officers setting bad examples?  No question.


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## LittleBlackDevil (1 Jun 2020)

Just out of curiosity I was wondering how many people now have the new CADPAT? The pics I've seen in news articles recently of CAF members deployed OP LASER and they all appear to be wearing the old/all green CADPAT. But then I was talking to a guy who is a reservist in a city not far from where I live and he said he's been issued the new stuff as have several at his unit. 

I was a bit skeptical but the main reason he mentioned it was to comment that he doesn't like it, it looks like puke, and he prefers the old CADPAT. 

So that got me curious as to whether this is rolling out on a large scale now?


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## dimsum (1 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity I was wondering how many people now have the new CADPAT? The pics I've seen in news articles recently of CAF members deployed OP LASER and they all appear to be wearing the old/all green CADPAT. But then I was talking to a guy who is a reservist in a city not far from where I live and he said he's been issued the new stuff as have several at his unit.
> 
> I was a bit skeptical but the main reason he mentioned it was to comment that he doesn't like it, it looks like puke, and he prefers the old CADPAT.
> 
> So that got me curious as to whether this is rolling out on a large scale now?



It is being rolled out CAF-wide, but maybe not everyone has turned their old stuff in.  I don't believe there is a hard deadline for everyone to switch over.


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## MilEME09 (1 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity I was wondering how many people now have the new CADPAT? The pics I've seen in news articles recently of CAF members deployed OP LASER and they all appear to be wearing the old/all green CADPAT. But then I was talking to a guy who is a reservist in a city not far from where I live and he said he's been issued the new stuff as have several at his unit.
> 
> I was a bit skeptical but the main reason he mentioned it was to comment that he doesn't like it, it looks like puke, and he prefers the old CADPAT.
> 
> So that got me curious as to whether this is rolling out on a large scale now?



I haven't heard anything about the J pattern roll out but I doubt reservists are getting it. Priority has been those going over seas, then reg force. We should be the last ones getting it.


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## LittleBlackDevil (1 Jun 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> It is being rolled out CAF-wide, but maybe not everyone has turned their old stuff in.  I don't believe there is a hard deadline for everyone to switch over.



So I take it that anyone new/being issued uniform for the first time is going to be given the new stuff then?


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## LittleBlackDevil (1 Jun 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I haven't heard anything about the J pattern roll out but I doubt reservists are getting it. Priority has been those going over seas, then reg force. We should be the last ones getting it.



I was a bit skeptical that this guy was "gilding the Lilley" a little but it seemed a weird thing to make up. Maybe he was going to be going on workup training for deployment or something.


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## OceanBonfire (1 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity I was wondering how many people now have the new CADPAT? The pics I've seen in news articles recently of CAF members deployed OP LASER and they all appear to be wearing the old/all green CADPAT. But then I was talking to a guy who is a reservist in a city not far from where I live and he said he's been issued the new stuff as have several at his unit.
> 
> I was a bit skeptical but the main reason he mentioned it was to comment that he doesn't like it, it looks like puke, and he prefers the old CADPAT.
> 
> So that got me curious as to whether this is rolling out on a large scale now?



https://army.ca/forums/threads/131102.0.html


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## dimsum (1 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> So I take it that anyone new/being issued uniform for the first time is going to be given the new stuff then?



Sorry, I was thinking the newer cut of uniform (zippered breast pockets and large Cdn flag) as opposed to the one with the slanted breast pockets.  The new CADPAT pattern isn't fully out yet; just in user trials.


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## stellarpanther (2 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Cold lake will have lots of stock in 4-6 months....


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## Kilted (2 Jun 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I haven't heard anything about the J pattern roll out but I doubt reservists are getting it. Priority has been those going over seas, then reg force. We should be the last ones getting it.




The Air Force should be the last ones getting it. If they aren't attached to an Army unit, I don't see why they need a camouflage uniform. I have one friend in the Air Force who I tell to stop copying us and get their own uniform.


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## stellarpanther (2 Jun 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> I have one friend in the Air Force who I tell to stop copying us and get their own uniform.



I don't see why the 3 elements can't have their own distinct CADPAT uniforms.  Other than the development costs it shouldn't be much of an additional cost. Isn't the navy already developing a new CADPAT uniform to replace their NCD's?


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## PuckChaser (2 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't see why the 3 elements can't have their own distinct CADPAT uniforms.  Other than the development costs it shouldn't be much of an additional cost. Isn't the navy already developing a new CADPAT uniform to replace their NCD's?



Why do we need to waste the money to do that? NCDs have a specific operational use. RCAF aircrew have flight suits (when they can get them apparently). RCN folks on land ops wear CADPAT much like CA folks on ship wear NCDs. CADPAT is Canadian Disruptive Pattern not Canadian Army Disruptive Pattern. If CADPAT is not sufficiently RCN/RCAF enough, there's already a distinctive uniform, literally called the Distinctive Environmental Uniform. Throw on your 3B.


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## stellarpanther (2 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Why do we need to waste the money to do that? NCDs have a specific operational use. RCAF aircrew have flight suits (when they can get them apparently). RCN folks on land ops wear CADPAT much like CA folks on ship wear NCDs. CADPAT is Canadian Disruptive Pattern not Canadian Army Disruptive Pattern. If CADPAT is not sufficiently RCN/RCAF enough, there's already a distinctive uniform, literally called the Distinctive Environmental Uniform. Throw on your 3B.



I understand that NCD's have a specific operational use but when they are in land based units, whether it's the NCR, Borden or anywhere else they still wear them.  When navy mbr's are assigned to land units they don't wear CADPAT, they still wear NCD's.  Even at the range in Connaught (Ottawa) they still wear NCD's.  I've don't recall when the last time was that I saw a navy mbr in CADPAT.  I don't think they even issue them to the navy unless they are a purple trade and are being deployed and require them.  When they return, they hand them back in I believe.


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## dapaterson (2 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If CADPAT is not sufficiently RCN/RCAF enough, there's already a distinctive uniform, literally called the Distinctive Environmental Uniform. Throw on your 3B.



Heretic.


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## PuckChaser (2 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand that NCD's have a specific operational use but when they are in land based units, whether it's the NCR, Borden or anywhere else they still wear them.  When navy mbr's are assigned to land units they don't wear CADPAT, they still wear NCD's.  Even at the range in Connaught (Ottawa) they still wear NCD's.  I've don't recall when the last time was that I saw a navy mbr in CADPAT.  I don't think they even issue them to the navy unless they are a purple trade and are being deployed and require them.  When they return, they hand them back in I believe.



That was a RCN directive, that RCN pers posted outside RCN units must wear NCDs. If you go to a field force (LDA unit) those RCN pers wear CADPAT just like RCAF and CA pers as their dress of the day. To be honest its just as big of a waste of money to have CA pers not in an operational/element HQ wearing CADPAT as it is having RCN pers wear NCDs everywhere. Operational uniforms are expensive, why can't we dress up and look professional? If people work in a business-like office, wear our business-like attire. 

Yes, I'm a heretic.  ;D


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## stellarpanther (2 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That was a RCN directive, that RCN pers posted outside RCN units must wear NCDs. If you go to a field force (LDA unit) those RCN pers wear CADPAT just like RCAF and CA pers as their dress of the day. To be honest its just as big of a waste of money to have CA pers not in an operational/element HQ wearing CADPAT as it is having RCN pers wear NCDs everywhere. Operational uniforms are expensive, why can't we dress up and look professional? If people work in a business-like office, wear our business-like attire.
> 
> Yes, I'm a heretic.  ;D



As comfortable as it is to wear CADPAT everyday, I agree with you and would have no problem doing so.  Wearing 3b's certainly looks more professional.  The only change I would love to see with that uniform is that we be allowed to wear a white undershirt underneath.  I don't know how many time I've seen someone with sweat running down their backs or the armpits while standing on the bus. Then it doesn't look that professional.


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## dimsum (2 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't see why the 3 elements can't have their own distinct CADPAT uniforms.  Other than the development costs it shouldn't be much of an additional cost. Isn't the navy already developing a new CADPAT uniform to replace their NCD's?



There will be the cost to purchase X amounts in varying sizes, the cost to store them, and the cost to transport them around if one depot doesn't have enough.  That's just off the top of my head.  All for what, to look different?  The public won't care, and military folks already know what to look for to figure out the wearer's element.

Also, there will be more folks pissed off that Supply doesn't have their size but have it in the other element's pattern.  

The RCN also isn't developing a CADPAT uniform - they're developing a uniform to replace NCDs.  It's like, but not exactly, the newer cut of combats.


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## PuckChaser (2 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> As comfortable as it is to wear CADPAT everyday, I agree with you and would have no problem doing so.  Wearing 3b's certainly looks more professional.  The only change I would love to see with that uniform is that we be allowed to wear a white undershirt underneath.  I don't know how many time I've seen someone with sweat running down their backs or the armpits while standing on the bus. Then it doesn't look that professional.



There's a regulation against that? I do it every time I'm in DEU. Same with my civilian dress shirts. Chapter 2, Section 2, Para 10 is the only reference I could find:



> UNDERGARMENTS
> 10. Undergarments including a brassiere for female personnel shall be worn under all orders of dress and
> shall be of an appropriate colour so as not to be visible through uniform items of clothing.



White undershirt by that para seems good to go. Perhaps you just saw a bunch of wierd folks who were never taught how to wear a suit?


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## stellarpanther (2 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's a regulation against that? I do it every time I'm in DEU. Same with my civilian dress shirts. Chapter 2, Section 2, Para 10 is the only reference I could find:
> 
> White undershirt by that para seems good to go. Perhaps you just saw a bunch of wierd folks who were never taught how to wear a suit?



I've worn one several times without any problems other than a sarcastic comment a few times but last year I wore one and I thought I was being accused of murder.  Some random MWO inside NDHQ started giving me shit saying it's never been allowed.  My CoC didn't really feel like taking up the fight so I stopped wearing it and didn't really think about it too much since I don't wear it that often anyway.


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## PuckChaser (2 Jun 2020)

Politely ask for the reference and watch that MWO's head explode. If they ask why, tell them you want to give the reference to your subordinates so they don't make the same mistake.


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## garb811 (2 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I've worn one several times without any problems other than a sarcastic comment a few times but last year I wore one and I thought I was being accused of murder.  Some random MWO inside NDHQ started giving me shit saying it's never been allowed.  My CoC didn't really feel like taking up the fight so I stopped wearing it and didn't really think about it too much since I don't wear it that often anyway.


What order of dress were you in? If 3B, was it showing at the neck and/or sleeves? If so, just wear a v-neck that fits so it doesn't show.


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## BDTyre (2 Jun 2020)

I've always worn one of those grey Logistik unicorp tee-shirts under my DEU button-up shirt (except in walking out dress). Never had anyone complain...mind you, 90% of the time I have my tunic over my shirt.


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## CBH99 (2 Jun 2020)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I've always worn one of those grey Logistik unicorp tee-shirts under my DEU button-up shirt (except in walking out dress). Never had anyone complain...mind you, 90% of the time I have my tunic over my shirt.




Those grey tee-shirts are the most comfortable tee-shirts ever made...no??   Kept mine for years until they finally fell apart.


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## stellarpanther (2 Jun 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> What order of dress were you in? If 3B, was it showing at the neck and/or sleeves? If so, just wear a v-neck that fits so it doesn't show.



The white wasn't visible but it was probably possible to tell I had it underneath.  It's often possible to tell if a person is wearing an undershirt.  Maybe I'll wear one again next time I wear 3b's.  I'll run it by my CoC first.  As for that MWO, I didn't know him and don't recall even seeing him again since this happened.  For all I know, he was visiting NDHQ or the NCR.


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## brihard (3 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't see why the 3 elements can't have their own distinct CADPAT uniforms.  Other than the development costs it shouldn't be much of an additional cost. Isn't the navy already developing a new CADPAT uniform to replace their NCD's?



I think you're missing the point of camouflage. The intent isn't to be a uniform distinctive for the environment. If we wanted to have that we'd call it something else. CADPAT is first and foremost designed to be worn in combat, and we *should* have a combat uniform whose camouflage most effectively contributes to the concealment of troops in the environments we're most likely to fight in.

I always thought the old CADPAT was too dark green, personally- this new stuff looks like it'll probably be more effective.


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## dimsum (3 Jun 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I think you're missing the point of camouflage. The intent isn't to be a uniform distinctive for the environment.



It doesn't help that some/many militaries around the world have made it "fashion" and a way to visually distinguish the services.


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## Brash (3 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I've worn one several times without any problems other than a sarcastic comment a few times but last year I wore one and I thought I was being accused of murder.  Some random MWO inside NDHQ started giving me crap saying it's never been allowed.  My CoC didn't really feel like taking up the fight so I stopped wearing it and didn't really think about it too much since I don't wear it that often anyway.



Were you wearing a v-neck or crew-neck t-shirt?

Crew neck would be against the regs because it is visible.
If, however, the MWO questioned a proper "invisible" v-neck, I would ask them why they are looking so closely at your undergarments.


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## stellarpanther (3 Jun 2020)

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> Were you wearing a v-neck or crew-neck t-shirt?
> 
> Crew neck would be against the regs because it is visible.
> If, however, the MWO questioned a proper "invisible" v-neck, I would ask them why they are looking so closely at your undergarments.



It was a V-neck with no part of the undershirt visible.  As I said, next time I wear 3b's, I'll wear it again.  I never had a problem before with it and I don't recall ever seeing that MWO every again.


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## Good2Golf (3 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's a regulation against that? I do it every time I'm in DEU. Same with my civilian dress shirts. Chapter 2, Section 2, Para 10 is the only reference I could find:
> 
> White undershirt by that para seems good to go. Perhaps you just saw a bunch of wierd folks who were never taught how to wear a suit?



Same here, wore white v-neck (so no pop up above the top button like a round neck T cause) and not a single sideways glance from anyone in 101. :dunno:


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## my72jeep (3 Jun 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I think you're missing the point of camouflage. The intent isn't to be a uniform distinctive for the environment. If we wanted to have that we'd call it something else. CADPAT is first and foremost designed to be worn in combat, and we *should* have a combat uniform whose camouflage most effectively contributes to the concealment of troops in the environments we're most likely to fight in.
> 
> I always thought the old CADPAT was too dark green, personally- this new stuff looks like it'll probably be more effective.


Then why in the 90’s did they make us wear that hideous duck hunting jacket in the office?


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## brihard (3 Jun 2020)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Then why in the 90’s did they make us wear that hideous duck hunting jacket in the office?



I don't know, I was probably watching cartoons. I would guess though it's because the army was probably no less prone then to the occasional rampant stupidity to which it's still prone now.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2020)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Then why in the 90’s did they make us wear that hideous duck hunting jacket in the office?



They actually weren't that great for duck hunting.   ;D


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## BDTyre (3 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Those grey tee-shirts are the most comfortable tee-shirts ever made...no??   Kept mine for years until they finally fell apart.



They're great! I'm sad they took them off Logistik's site. I still have a few new ones hanging around somewhere, but most of mine are probably closer to falling apart.


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## dapaterson (3 Jun 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> They actually weren't that great for duck hunting.   ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2020)

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> Were you wearing a v-neck or crew-neck t-shirt?
> 
> Crew neck would be against the regs because it is visible.
> If, however, the MWO questioned a proper "invisible" v-neck, I would ask them why they are looking so closely at your undergarments.



I'd recommend against that...especially for Jnr ranks.  If it is truly invisible, 'the MWO' won't even see it.  Right?


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## stellarpanther (3 Jun 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'd recommend against that...especially for Jnr ranks.  If it is truly invisible, 'the MWO' won't even see it.  Right?



You don't actually see the white when people wear them but it's clear to tell who's wearing an undershirt. You can often make out and outline.  A lot of people surprisingly don't wear them and you can sometimes tell on the bus in the summer with the sweat.  Like many units even in Ottawa sitting in a cubicle, I wear Cadpat so it's not overly concerning for me.  WO's and above don't with the exception of certain units such as CJOC HQ for example.
It's not a fight worth fighting so with the exception of asking my CoC if they're ok with it next time I need to wear it I'll leave it alone.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's not a fight worth fighting so with the exception of asking my CoC if they're ok with it next time I need to wear it I'll leave it alone.



What about for your subordinates, if you have any?

What about the actual policy?  If it isn't clear, 'not saying anything' will never clear up ambiguity.  These types of things also fall under our duties as leaders.  Address the question to your CofC for clarification; it could be there are X amount of people who are also unsure, like you are, and hesitant to 'fight a fight'.  Asking a question shouldn't be fighting a fight, if it is you have bigger issues at your unit.


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## Mick (3 Jun 2020)

The only guidance in the dress instructions is:

"The shirt, short-sleeved shall be worn with the collar open.  Underwear shall not be visible."

So, as long as a white v-neck is completely under your shirt, no problem.  In fact, I think it looks a lot more professional - DEU shirts seem to be more see-thru than they used to be.  Prolongs the life of the actual SS shirt as well.


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## blacktriangle (3 Jun 2020)

"Shall not be visible" can probably be interpreted in different ways by different people. Arguing policy was one of the most tedious parts of being in the CAF.


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## Mick (3 Jun 2020)

I'd be curious to see how many people on this forum, other than SP, have been jacked up for wearing a white v-neck completely under their SS shirt.  Even more curious to know how many Sr. NCMs here have jacked up others for the same "offence".

Throughout my time at CFLRS, CMR, RMC, and other training establishments, I have always worn a v-neck under 3B (air).  Never an issue, as it was never visible, unless you count noticing that my shirt wasn't as see-thru.  It was a common practice.


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## Mick (3 Jun 2020)

Both wearing undershirts.  Both less noticeable than the variety of different "green" berets visible on parades (logistik vs purchased etc).


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## dapaterson (3 Jun 2020)

What's that new order of dress - long sleeved shirt with tie, no epaulettes, ribbons and name tag?


EDIT: Looking at the decorations, believe he may be USAF on exchange.


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## Spencer100 (3 Jun 2020)

oh and the watch on the right hand!   :tsktsk:


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## blacktriangle (3 Jun 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What's that new order of dress - long sleeved shirt with tie, no epaulettes, ribbons and name tag?
> 
> 
> EDIT: Looking at the decorations, believe he may be USAF on exchange.



Maybe a USAF senior enlisted leader, gentleman on the right is a USAF Col. 

Edit: Looked him up, seems I was correct.


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## stoker dave (3 Jun 2020)

While it has been some years, I *always* wore a v-neck t-shirt underneath my 3B. 

The original navy white short sleeve shirt was 100% plastic.  It was absolutely hideous to wear.  A cotton t-shirt was essential and (as I recall) almost everyone wore one.  No one seemed to ever care about a v-neck shirt underneath an open collar shirt.  What changed?


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## BDTyre (3 Jun 2020)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> oh and the watch on the right hand!   :tsktsk:



I always wear my watch on the right...maybe it's because I'm predominantly left handed.


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## dimsum (3 Jun 2020)

stoker dave said:
			
		

> The original navy white short sleeve shirt was 100% plastic.  It was absolutely hideous to wear.



But you iron it once a career 

Edit:  And I remember wearing it, with the rest of 3Bs, as Officer of the Day in port for a bit.  Why the hell anyone thought going into a potential fire with a fire extinguisher, plastic shirt, starched pants, and shiny shoes was a good idea needed to have their head examined.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2020)

mick said:
			
		

> I'd be curious to see how many people on this forum, other than SP, have been jacked up for wearing a white v-neck completely under their SS shirt.  Even more curious to know how many Sr. NCMs here have jacked up others for the same "offence".



Never.  Generally speaking, if I am wearing no tunic, I'll have a V-beck t-shirt on.  Would I 'jack up' someone?  Only if they weren't following the dress regs (the t-shirt sleeve being longer than the SS shirt sleeve and hanging out, or the t-shirt neck being visible).  That just comes down to smart buying, IMO.  

Denver Hayes modern fit V-neck white t shirts are all I buy;  95% cotton, 5 % spandex.  Very comfy and not 'loose fitting'.


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## Mick (3 Jun 2020)

Agree, if anything is "hanging out", fair game.  Canex used to carry good v-necks too.


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## Kilted (3 Jun 2020)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I always wear my watch on the right...maybe it's because I'm predominantly left handed.



I wear my watch on my right wrist and I am right handed. It's annoyed a couple CSM's, but it's the way I have always done it.


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## Brash (3 Jun 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'd recommend against that...especially for Jnr ranks.  If it is truly invisible, 'the MWO' won't even see it.  Right?



As other have noted, the wording "shall not be visible" would be interpreted by those with a modicum of common sense, as the t-shirt physically not sticking out the neck hole or arm holes.
Either that, or let the pedantry begin, and I'm going to start pointing out underwear-lines on some people that shimmy into their DEUs after too many years of extra duff.


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## dimsum (4 Jun 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> I wear my watch on my right wrist and I am right handed. It's annoyed a couple CSM's, but it's the way I have always done it.



Some CSMs really care which hand you wear your watch on   ???


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## MilEME09 (4 Jun 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Some CSMs really care which hand you wear your watch on   ???



Covid must be getting to them


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## OldSolduer (4 Jun 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Some CSMs really care which hand you wear your watch on   ???



No not really - at least not this one. 

I can seen some being that ridiculous though.


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## BDTyre (4 Jun 2020)

Odd...I've always worn my watch on my right, at least as far as I can remember. I've never had anyone say anything about it.


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## Furniture (4 Jun 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Some CSMs really care which hand you wear your watch on   ???



There is a certain type of person that like cream rises to the top, unlike cream this type of floater smells terrible... 

I saw a Sgt wearing the new CADPAT in 101 on Monday. In person is looks much better than in the pictures I have seen so far. Looks similar in tone to MARPAT, maybe a bit less brown.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jun 2020)

> When wearing civilian clothes off duty, jewellery and accessories will preserve a conservative, disciplined, professional appearance.



That watch better not be one of those non-disciplined type ones!


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Jun 2020)

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> As other have noted, the wording "shall not be visible" would be interpreted by those with a modicum of common sense, as the t-shirt physically not sticking out the neck hole or arm holes.



I agree that a modicum of common sense should play a part (it does for me...), but there is a 'wrong way' to be right with MWOs (for Warrant Officers and below).   ;D



> let the pedantry begin, and I'm going to start pointing out underwear-lines on some people that shimmy into their DEUs after too many years of extra duff.



  :rofl:  That made me LOL.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That watch better not be one of those non-disciplined type ones!


My watch gets drunk on Thursday nights and shows up late for PT on Friday. I've had to put it on C&P.


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## Mandalore (29 Sep 2020)

Just wanted to add my 2 pennies here. 

A lot of folks were saying to just go with multicam like other allies. Just to clarify, Yanks use Operational Camouflage Pattern (OCP), and we Brits use Multi-Terrain Pattern (MTP). 
Both are unique enough to be made without MC licence infringement but similar enough that bits of MC gear integrate well. You dont need to pay out mega bucks for Multicam branded stuff. 

Either could be a cost effective option.


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## my72jeep (30 Sep 2020)

Mandalore said:
			
		

> Just wanted to add my 2 pennies here.
> 
> A lot of folks were saying to just go with multicam like other allies. Just to clarify, Yanks use Operational Camouflage Pattern (OCP), and we Brits use Multi-Terrain Pattern (MTP).
> Both are unique enough to be made without MC licence infringement but similar enough that bits of MC gear integrate well. You dont need to pay out mega bucks for Multicam branded stuff.
> ...


How dare you even say “Cost Effective” this is the Canadian Government your talking about.


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## CBH99 (30 Sep 2020)

Mandalore said:
			
		

> Just wanted to add my 2 pennies here.
> 
> A lot of folks were saying to just go with multicam like other allies. Just to clarify, Yanks use Operational Camouflage Pattern (OCP), and we Brits use Multi-Terrain Pattern (MTP).
> Both are unique enough to be made without MC licence infringement but similar enough that bits of MC gear integrate well. You dont need to pay out mega bucks for Multicam branded stuff.
> ...




Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa... WHOA... good sir.


Did you just make a common sense suggestion??


This is the Canadian Forces.  We don't do that here.


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## daftandbarmy (30 Sep 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa... WHOA... good sir.
> 
> 
> Did you just make a common sense suggestion??
> ...



.... even with DEU, which is very different depending on just how 'Special' you are


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