# NCM vs Officer enrollment



## lover (15 Mar 2005)

I recently accepted a posting as an Infantrymen, and while I am very excited to be going and serving my country, I, however, had originally applied to become an officer.  I do have a (4 year) degree, but was told I lacked the proven leadership skills and was told if they were to move me on I likely would not pass the next boards. This lead me to beleive that it was as much a personal decision on the career councillor's behalf as it was cf policy, which leaves me a little dismayed as I was not given the chance to even prove myself. I am happy with my decision to join as an NCM, but am wondering if I can put my education to better use and have a chance later on to become an officer, if I so desire.  Appreciate any input.
Thanks


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## lover (15 Mar 2005)

Well my point more clearly is this:  by entering the CF as an NCM have I shut the door on the possibility of becoming an officer?


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## ark (18 Mar 2005)

lover said:
			
		

> Appreciate any input.



As someone already pointed out, it is possible to become a Commissioned Officer from the ranks. Don't be discouraged for now and I'm sure you will get some valuable experience as a NCM. There is a thread discussing pros/cons of getting "up from the ranks"

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23230.0.html


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## lover (4 Apr 2005)

Thanks guys.  I still haven't decided if thats even the route I am going to take, but at least I feel better knowing that I haven't limited myself in my very early military career.


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## Forgotten_Hero (6 Apr 2005)

> Well my point more clearly is this:  by entering the CF as an NCM have I shut the door on the possibility of becoming an officer?



Actually, IMO, it'll help your chances of becomming an officer. You'll be able to go on a leadership course as an NCM and prove your leadership abilities throughout service as an NCM.


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## canadiancarebear (7 Apr 2005)

When I was on BOTP there was an entire platoon of people who were commissioned from the ranks....so get some experience, give it a few years and apply through your career manager...especially for infantry, there were lots of CFR positions.


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## TheCheez (7 Apr 2005)

ex-NCMs generally make good officers because they know what life is like for those that they're leading and what NCMs want and expect from an officer.

You haven't limited yourself don't worry about it.


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## Future Prodigy (17 Mar 2008)

Is this a common theme - this being to enter as an NCM with a 4 year Honors degree?


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## Lumber (17 Mar 2008)

Future Prodigy said:
			
		

> Is this a common theme - this being to enter as an NCM with a 4 year Honors degree?



There are a lot of NCMs with degree and even multiple degrees. How many earned them before hand and how many earned them while serving I can't say, but a lot seem to get them while serving, and good on them!


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## ontheedge (11 Dec 2018)

So I'm not a spring chicken and it's difficult to get into any direct entry officer role; my initial field of interest rarely hires, so I moved to another field that also rarely hires; and another.

Now I'm thinking I should just go in as an NCM despite my university and "senior management" experience Civvie side.  Something in an NCM administrative role, just to get my BQM going and so on.  Every month that goes by I'm losing precious time.

Any thoughts?  

An interesting side-effect is that entry-level NCM jobs pay like 20% higher than officer cadets.  Anyone explain that one to me?

TIA.


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## garb811 (11 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> So I'm not a spring chicken and it's difficult to get into any direct entry officer role; my initial field of interest rarely hires, so I moved to another field that also rarely hires; and another.
> 
> Now I'm thinking I should _just go in as an NCM despite my university and "senior management" experience_ Civvie side.  Something in an NCM administrative role, just to get my BQM going and so on.  Every month that goes by I'm losing precious time.
> 
> Any thoughts?


*IF* you are lucky enough to get in, even as "just" a NCM, you're going to be rudely surprised at the backgrounds and education levels of some of the NCMs in the CAF, particularly in the PRes. Whether or not your Plan E is a good one is a question nobody can answer but you. I will say that in my experience, people who join a trade just to get in, typically don't do all that well, primarily because they realize that their heart isn't really in it because they aren't doing what they actually want to do. If your ultimate plan is to get in and then try to commission into one of the officer occupations you've been unsuccessful at getting into so far, that's a route of potential disappointment as well because there is no guarantee that is ever going to happen.



> An interesting side-effect is that entry-level NCM jobs pay like 20% higher than officer cadets.  Anyone explain that one to me?
> 
> TIA.


Are you still looking at going PRes? If so, where are you getting your numbers on pay because that certainly isn't the case (Pte - $96.06 a day vs OCdt - $105.46 a day). Even in the Reg Force, it is only ROTP OCdts who make less than a Pte, which considering they are getting their schooling for free isn't a bad deal...


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## ontheedge (11 Dec 2018)

Wow thanks, this is helpful. I thought most ncm were young and without university degrees generally.


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## Blackadder1916 (11 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Wow thanks, this is helpful. I thought most ncm were young and without university degrees generally.



These figures are years old.  My assumption is that an even higher proportion of NCMs have a post-secondary credential now.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-001-x/2008107/article/10657-eng.htm#a4


> The steady increase in earnings also coincided with rising levels of education. To meet the high technical demands of modern warfare, more recognized training and education are necessary. In 2002, more than half of CF members aged 25 or older had a postsecondary degree or diploma (88% of officers; 37% of non-commissioned members in the regular forces, 63% in the reserves). In 1988, 19% of regular force personnel had a postsecondary degree or diploma and 26% had less than high school graduation (Strike 1989). By 2002, postsecondary graduation had increased to 48% and less than high school graduation had fallen to 7%. Even with the increase, postsecondary graduation among CF personnel was lower (53%) than for civilian workers aged 25 or older (59%). However, members of the reserves had higher rates (69%), reflecting on-campus recruiting.


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## BeyondTheNow (11 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Wow thanks, this is helpful. I thought most ncm were young and without university degrees generally.



Many NCMs are educated past high-school. Also, as you may have seen on these boards, book-smart doesn’t equate to intelligence...


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Wow thanks, this is helpful. I thought most ncm were young and without university degrees generally.



Yup.  Some of us down in steerage have years of experience to go along with "more than high school".     I've had Jnr NCMs at the lowest end of the ranks (Pte/Tpr) who've had one or more degress who struggled with what to most people is very simple training and tasks.  Like, a bed layout or learning to drive a standard.  

My  :2c: on what trade to pick and the NCM or Officer debate;  pick something you think you will be happy in for the duration of your career.  All of the occupation transfer programs are competitive and going from NCM to Officer is never, ever a sure thing.  Don't go NCM 'to just get your foot in the door'.  If you're waiting and not getting picked up, maybe consider talking to the CFRC to find out what, if anything, can be done to make your file more competitive.  CFAT scores are extremely important and hold a lot of weight on the overall score an applicant achieves.


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## ontheedge (12 Dec 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Yup.  Some of us down in steerage have years of experience to go along with "more than high school".     I've had Jnr NCMs at the lowest end of the ranks (Pte/Tpr) who've had one or more degress who struggled with what to most people is very simple training and tasks.  Like, a bed layout or learning to drive a standard.
> 
> My  :2c: on what trade to pick and the NCM or Officer debate;  pick something you think you will be happy in for the duration of your career.  All of the occupation transfer programs are competitive and going from NCM to Officer is never, ever a sure thing.  Don't go NCM 'to just get your foot in the door'.  If you're waiting and not getting picked up, maybe consider talking to the CFRC to find out what, if anything, can be done to make your file more competitive.  CFAT scores are extremely important and hold a lot of weight on the overall score an applicant achieves.



The way I understood the recruiting process, if a person has a university degree, they are told they can go into officer roles if they want, and many choose that route once they're told.  Perhaps there are some who also go NCM route.

For us ol' folks over 40 years old, waiting 2 or 3 years is not like waiting from age 22 to 24.  Our geriatric bodies are getting more wear and tear every year; BQM at 40 is one thing, at 44 I think it gets even harder.  47... I dunno, that's starting to get exceptional.

Most of us who join the forces do so to make a difference, learn skills, be around good people, and most importantly wear the Forces badge with pride...  Your signature line is kind of ironic, since you are saying we should pick a trade we like, and your signature jokes about not liking what you do...

For me, one important thing is leadership training, which I know is focused at the Officer level, maybe NCM too for those showing the interest...


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## blacktriangle (12 Dec 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I've had Jnr NCMs at the lowest end of the ranks (Pte/Tpr) who've had one or more degress who struggled with what to most people is very simple training and tasks.  Like, a bed layout or learning to drive a standard.



Iltis?  ;D

OP - For whatever it's worth, the military has a way of taking the coolest of jobs and making them suck in one regard or another. 

At one point, I literally had what I'd consider one of the coolest jobs in the world. Did I like it? Not by the end of it. 

Whatever path you take, just keep in mind that things may not turn out the way you expect. It's not easy to become an officer once you are an NCM. You have a better chance off the street, IMO.


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## ontheedge (12 Dec 2018)

standingdown said:
			
		

> It's not easy to become an officer once you are an NCM. You have a better chance off the street, IMO.



 Probably trade specific, no?. e.g. Intel seems to like officers coming up the ranks from NCM; whereas some others seem open...


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## blacktriangle (12 Dec 2018)

Intelligence is usually referred to as "Int" and not "Intel" in Canada. I can't comment on current Int Branch hiring, but I've seen all kinds. Everything from the ultra-experienced to those who would have a tough time holding down a job at Walmart. YMMV.


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> . . .
> 
> For me, one important thing is leadership training, which I know is focused at the Officer level, maybe NCM too for those showing the interest...



Again you demonstrate that you have barely a faint understanding of the military.  Leadership (and leadership training) is not the unique domain of officers.  To generalize, the majority of CF members (i.e. NCMs) are directly supervised, controlled, coordinated and managed - in other words, led - by other NCMs.  WOs and NCOs are also often the instructors responsible for most officers' primary "leadership training" (BMOQ and phase training, which is sometimes the only structured leadership training they may receive), as well as being responsible for "informal" leadership guidance of new officers.  How does the CF develop those non-officer leaders - for promotion to certain NCM ranks, completion of formal leadership courses are required.


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> The way I understood the recruiting process, if a person has a university degree, they are told they can go into officer roles if they want, and many choose that route once they're told.  Perhaps there are some who also go NCM route.



The CFAT may also 'show' that someone has the required scores (aptitudes, as much as a test can show...) for Officer trades/classifications how only had Grade 10 when the wrote it (my case way back in the late 80s), but that doesn't automatically translate into being a competitive applicant.  It is just the first of many hurtles to jump over to being selected, and then trained.  



> For us ol' folks over 40 years old, waiting 2 or 3 years is not like waiting from age 22 to 24.  Our geriatric bodies are getting more wear and tear every year; BQM at 40 is one thing, at 44 I think it gets even harder.  47... I dunno, that's starting to get exceptional.



48 years old now, so I get what happens as we go beyond our 20s.  BMQ (it's not BQM) can be a challenge...so can deploying on operations for months at a time.  BMQ is just the tip of the iceberg, really.  If you are worried about BMQ, are you also not concerned about BMOQ and the other Officer training courses?  



> Most of us who join the forces do so to make a difference, learn skills, be around good people, and most importantly wear the Forces badge with pride...  Your signature line is kind of ironic, since you are saying we should pick a trade we like, and your signature jokes about not liking what you do...



Thanks for the info on why people join.  I also sort of picked those concepts up over the last 29 years and change.   

Ref my signature line, you know what 'a joke/a jibe' is right?  That is what my signature line is - just something to chuckle at.  I know you don't know me, but if you knew more about what I do, the places I get to go, etc you'd know I have very few legitimate complaints about my job.  For the record - I think I have one of the top 3 NCM trades in the CAF (SAR Tech and Mission Specialist would be a good go!).  



> For me, one important thing is leadership training, which I know is focused at the Officer level, maybe NCM too for those showing the interest...



Already covered by Blackadder, but maybe you need to ask yourself how much you really know about these things.  Consider you're on a forum with people who have decades of time in the military.  My suggestion is to ask more questions so you can learn more info, as opposed to stating how things are and how things work.  At this point, you don't even know what you don't know yet.   :2c:


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## Eye In The Sky (12 Dec 2018)

standingdown said:
			
		

> Iltis?  ;D



Yup!  Had a guy with 2 degrees who just couldn't master the art of moving that death beast around.


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## garb811 (12 Dec 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Yup!  Had a guy with 2 degrees who just couldn't master the art of moving that death beast around.


Great, you gave me flashbacks to Basic Driver Training. Guy who was wanting to be a lineman was re-coursed for his third attempt. 10 min on the 401 in the Chrysler Reliant station wagon with a standard transmission, the driver instructor had him pull onto the shoulder and kicked him out of the driver's seat. COT to a trade that didn't require 404s followed.


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## ontheedge (12 Dec 2018)

Okay so let’s say I decide to wait it out. Wait for an officer role to open up. What can I do while I’m waiting?  Any courses open to the public or those on competition list?  Does it make me valuable if I get proficient in the use of firearms by eg taking pistol certification courses?


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## airwin (13 Dec 2018)

Want to be valuable, take french classes


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## ontheedge (13 Dec 2018)

Bon- pas exactement necessaire, par ce que je suis ne a Quebec... mais je ne sais pas si mes deux entrevue jai mentione cela... Merci pour le "tip" quand meme.  ;-)


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Okay so let’s say I decide to wait it out. Wait for an officer role to open up. What can I do while I’m waiting?  Any courses open to the public or those on competition list?  Does it make me valuable if I get proficient in the use of firearms by eg taking pistol certification courses?



Without knowing much actual details (your education levels/areas, work experience, CFAT results, etc etc) other than the trade you are interested in doesn't hire very many people, I'd still recommend talking with your file manager/MCC, etc at the CFRC to discuss with them what you could do to make your file more competitive.  They know the details here we don't, and IMO would be the best people to advise you on "what can I do while I'm waiting?".

And...good luck!  It can be a frustrating process, unfortunately.


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## sarahsmom (13 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Bon- pas exactement necessaire, par ce que je suis ne a Quebec... mais je ne sais pas si mes deux entrevue jai mentione cela... Merci pour le "tip" quand meme.  ;-)



Il y a des Anglophones qui sont nés aux Québec aussi, vous savez.


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## Lumber (13 Dec 2018)

ontheedge said:
			
		

> Okay so let’s say I decide to wait it out. Wait for an officer role to open up. What can I do while I’m waiting?  Any courses open to the public or those on competition list?  Does it make me valuable if I get proficient in the use of firearms by eg taking pistol certification courses?



Are you attempting to enrol PRes or Reg Force? Army, or Navy? (or Air force)... and trade?


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## ontheedge (13 Dec 2018)

Hey Eye in the Sky!  Thank you for your upbeat and positive message. Much appreciated. This is PRes. I’ll messge you as I don’t want to give too much detail in case there are relevant lurkers.


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