# Volunteer unpaid Militia idea (split from Reserve role thread)



## Kirkhill (10 Sep 2014)

I favour the older system of attesting virtually all-comers.  After they walk through the door and are cleared by the MO slap a beret/balmoral/glen/caubeen on their head, give them a pair of coveralls, a belt and a pair of boots and start them square-bashing.

After a few weeks of regular attendance put them on the Class A rolls and start paying them.

If they sign on for advanced training that would take them into Class B and C territory, potentially operating in support of the the Reserves or the Regs then clear them to the deployable standards of fitness and allowable moral turpitude.

The idea is get the interested into the system and engaged pdq.  At very least you will engage a part of the community and give them some exposure to the CF when they are most receptive.  That will give you a broader base of support in the community (even if it is only at the social club / auxiliary level) as well as developing a pool of attested willing from which the active Reserve and the Regs can be recruited.  You also get a longer period to actually evaluate recruits and determine if they are a fit.

With respect to liability - have the attested sign a waiver recognizing that they are not covered to the same standard as an enrolled soldier and have the CF/DND purchase commercial insurance similar to that purchased by high risk adventure businesses (skiing, parachuting, rafting, climbing etc) to cover loss of life and limb.

The full coverage should only be supplied to Class A,B and C Reserves and Regs under existing regulations.


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## GR66 (11 Sep 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I favour the older system of attesting virtually all-comers.  After they walk through the door and are cleared by the MO slap a beret/balmoral/glen/caubeen on their head, give them a pair of coveralls, a belt and a pair of boots and start them square-bashing.
> 
> After a few weeks of regular attendance put them on the Class A rolls and start paying them.
> 
> ...



I like this model.  Your basic entry-level Militiaman in this case would be very similar to a volunteer Auxiliary Police Officer.  Those programs nationwide are proof that an unpaid volunteer force can receive meaningful training (including firearms training) that is NOT the same standard as a full-fledged police officer but still produce units that are able to perform useful and important domestic security roles on a regular basis.  This would be a return to the traditional concept of a citizen's Militia.  These members would fulfill an important role linking the military to their home communities and provide a pool of predisposed and partially trained individuals should the need ever arise for large scale mobilization.

Those Militia members that wish to take the next step to a paid part-time position would have to meet the more stringent CF fitness standards to be deployable.  Their standard of training (unlike the volunteer Militia) would be more to the standard CF model but perhaps focused on those trades/skills required to produce deployable rifles ("guys in back") to augment the Reg Force in deployments, with the Reg Force members filling the more specialized roles that do not lend themselves to part-time training.

Those members able to commit greater time and effort into their training (even if only for a period of time) could become Class B members so that they can take the more advanced Mods in their trade and/or spend some time training with their Reg Force parent unit to keep their skills fresh.  Once their training period is completed they would revert to Class A but now have those more advanced skills to share with their unit.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Sep 2014)

I doubt you will ever see masses of untrained, unpaid, clothed in coveralls volunteer 'trainees' in Canada.  Bad publicity and bad politics.

Why not focus on restructure that is actually possible, like reducing the # of CBG and CBG HQs, forming Regiments in those revamped CBGs that make actually sense from an org and people/#s based reality.


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Sep 2014)

Lot's of places to volunteer already, what young people need is a job in the summer to help make money. The Summer youth program will be a good thing for the reserves and Reg force. You don't need NDHQ involved, run it at the regional Brigade level for the planning and command structure and the units do the training. Grow it slowly, the first years will be clunky and more expensive as you build up needed kit inventory. Hell you can combine it with a Junior Leaders course where the young NCO get a taste of leading troops and get their needed training as well.

At the same time you can eviscerate the HQ's, however  suspect it would be easier to run the student program then to hunting sacred cows.


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## Kirkhill (11 Sep 2014)

Back at the same time as D&B was doing his thing for the SHofC I was doing the same for the Calg Highrs.  High schools and shopping malls with kilt, Grizzly and LAW.

The problem wasn't getting them through the door.  The problem was how many new guys we allowed on the rolls vice how many people that needed to be released from the rolls because their attendance became spotty after three to five years. 

Commonly we hauled in high school and university types (and the occasional French-Canadian cowboy) who served as long as they were going to school locally.  Once they moved on, got a job, got married etc.... we lost 80 to 90% of them.  In the meantime though we regularly managed to turn out 150 to 200 for parades, 60 or so for regular training and had a strong cadre of Jr NCOs with all sorts of neat qualifications like jump courses, rappel master, assault pioneer, qualified on every battalion weapon (including TOW and Mortars).  Some of them even got attachments to the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (our sister regiment) to assist them in North Ireland.

And not a district or regular recruiter or career manager in sight.

Yours truly did his first four months "off the rolls" in scrounged kit.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Sep 2014)

I'm not saying it wouldn't work for the #s problem.  SYEP and CO-OP brought people in that might not have otherwise looked at a unit.  But I don't think you'd see it given the thumbs up from the powers that be, in today's world.  I worked PRES recruiting back in the day some; it is not as easy as some people think it should be/is.


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## dapaterson (11 Sep 2014)

So, to summarize: "I worked for free, so others should too!"  No.  Soldiers serving thier country are entitled to be paid for that service.  Full stop.  LFCA's former position "We'll call you a co-op student then refuse to pay you despite what the QR&Os say" has thankfully been ended.  There are too many possible abuses of power when it is a CO's discretion as to who to pay when.

"Units can recruit all by themselves!"  No.  I recall the days of the helpful MCpl giving advice on the entry exams, and perhaps fudging a colour blindness test to help a unit make its numbers.  Standards exist for reasons, and undergo regular validation.  Saying "He's a great guy, just not smart enough to pass the test" is not a reason to lower or ignore the standards.

Remember: given the turnover in the Reserves, the overwhelming majority of those who served in Afghanistan are those who were processed through... the recruiting centres.  Maybe, just maybe, their quality was in part because standards were enforced?


(And, of course, no one has posted any compelling reason of WHY units need to recruit dozens or hundreds more - what is the requirement this would meet?  Disaster relief is a secondary task for the military, not a raison d'etre.)


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## Haggis (11 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I doubt you will ever see masses of untrained, unpaid, clothed in coveralls volunteer 'trainees' in Canada _*again*_.



FTFY


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## Dissident (11 Sep 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, to summarize: "I worked for free, so others should too!"  No.  Soldiers serving their country are entitled to be paid for that service.  Full stop.  LFCA's former position "We'll call you a co-op student then refuse to pay you despite what the QR&Os say" has thankfully been ended.  There are too many possible abuses of power when it is a CO's discretion as to who to pay when.


Agreed. I could go off on a tangent about someone not that long ago who wasn't overly keen on troops becoming aware of their LTA and TD benefits, which were not being paid. I have no illusions that there could be some abuse. I did not live this, but s friend of mine told stories of signing pink pay sheets which might get paid at the end of fiscal, if there was budget.




			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> "Units can recruit all by themselves!"  No.  I recall the days of the helpful MCpl giving advice on the entry exams, and perhaps fudging a colour blindness test to help a unit make its numbers.  Standards exist for reasons, and undergo regular validation.  Saying "He's a great guy, just not smart enough to pass the test" is not a reason to lower or ignore the standards.


Sure, abuse could (will?) happen. But from where I am sitting, I would rather have to live with the odd administrative nightmare than be strangled out into oblivion. I'm sure there is a happy medium to be reached between what we have now and having local units be in sole control of their own recruiting.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Remember: given the turnover in the Reserves, the overwhelming majority of those who served in Afghanistan are those who were processed through... the recruiting centres.  Maybe, just maybe, their quality was in part because standards were enforced?


Sure. Maybe another part was because they had a decent cadre of NCMs. As other have alluded to, we lose 80-90% of people after 5 years. To maintain that cadre, critical mass as I call it, you need to have a pyramid that is pretty heavy at the bottom. If not pretty soon you have corporal leading corporals and it is not pretty. Especially for smaller units. Ask me how I know.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> (And, of course, no one has posted any compelling reason of WHY units need to recruit dozens or hundreds more - what is the requirement this would meet?  Disaster relief is a secondary task for the military, not a raison d'etre.)


IMHO it is exactly because we do not know what the next challenge is that we should have a fairly well staffed reserve. We are flexible and for the money we are a pretty cheap way to force generate while maintaining a foot print in the community. I see myself as an ambassador of the Forces and will take the time to explain to people what we do and where their taxpayers money is being spent. We parade, smile at kids, give Canadian flags and generally show people that yes, we do have an Army/Air Force/Navy. When disaster strikes we jump in.

But yeah, I am biased.


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## GR66 (11 Sep 2014)

There are a great many unpaid but trained (appropriately to their tasks) volunteer Police Auxiliaries, Fire Fighters, Medical First Responders and Search Teams across the country.  They seem to be able to perform the tasks assigned to them without much fuss.  In the past Militia members were unpaid.  I see no reason that such a form of membership would be impossible to put in place.  Would you use these individuals as augmentees for Reg Force deployments?  No, of course not.  Could they fill valuable roles in domestic service?  I think so with the right organization.  While it may not be seen as the primary role of the CF it IS one of the stated roles however.  Nor would I replace traditional paid and properly trained Class A reservists with these members.  They could however be a good potential source of recruitment and a base for mobilization should we ever be faced with a major global conflict.


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## MilEME09 (11 Sep 2014)

GR66 said:
			
		

> There are a great many unpaid but trained (appropriately to their tasks) volunteer Police Auxiliaries, Fire Fighters, Medical First Responders and Search Teams across the country.  They seem to be able to perform the tasks assigned to them without much fuss.  In the past Militia members were unpaid.  I see no reason that such a form of membership would be impossible to put in place.  Would you use these individuals as augmentees for Reg Force deployments?  No, of course not.  Could they fill valuable roles in domestic service?  I think so with the right organization.  While it may not be seen as the primary role of the CF it IS one of the stated roles however.  Nor would I replace traditional paid and properly trained Class A reservists with these members.  They could however be a good potential source of recruitment and a base for mobilization should we ever be faced with a major global conflict.



I think you described the supp res


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## GR66 (11 Sep 2014)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I think you described the supp res



The difference being that a volunteer Militia would parade and train on a regular basis.  It certainly could (and hopefully would) include members of the Supplementary Reserve.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Sep 2014)

If we cant get people interested in part time soldiering WITH pay, how do you propose to get them interested in it with OUT pay?

Seriously, this talk about volunteer militia in coveralls and rubber boots is about  as likely to happen as recce platoons being issued unicorns to move around on.


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## Remius (11 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If we cant get people interested in part time soldiering WITH pay, how do you propose to get them interested in it with OUT pay?
> 
> Seriously, this talk about volunteer militia in coveralls and rubber boots is about  as likely to happen as recce platoons being issued unicorns to move around on.



Oh great.  Nice one there.  Now troops will be spreading the unicorn rumour now.


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## dapaterson (11 Sep 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Oh great.  Nice one there.  Now troops will be spreading the unicorn rumour now.



Do unicorns fly, run on the ground, or swim?  Need to figure out if they're Air Force, Army or Navy...


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## Remius (11 Sep 2014)

As long as they have high visibility pips and crowns on them.


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## quadrapiper (11 Sep 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Do unicorns fly, run on the ground, or swim?  Need to figure out if they're Air Force, Army or Navy...


TacHel, I think - the things sometimes seem to be shown flying without the benefit of wings, yet clearly have an affinity for the ground.


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## McG (12 Sep 2014)

GR66 said:
			
		

> There are a great many unpaid but trained (appropriately to their tasks) volunteer Police Auxiliaries, Fire Fighters, Medical First Responders and Search Teams across the country.  They seem to be able to perform the tasks assigned to them without much fuss.  In the past Militia members were unpaid.  I see no reason that such a form of membership would be impossible to put in place.  Would you use these individuals as augmentees for Reg Force deployments?  No, of course not.  Could they fill valuable roles in domestic service?  I think so with the right organization.


Is this an answer looking for its question?  What domestic roles could an unpaid volunteer reserve fill that is not duplicating provincial volunteer forces ... especially where the concept is that they have no equipment?

I also do not see this as a proposal to improve the Army Reserve; it is a proposal to layer something new alongside the Army Reserve.  The idea may not deserve space in an Army Reserve discussion.


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## Kirkhill (12 Sep 2014)

Danish Homeguard
A citizen, as a member of the Home Guard, is able to demonstrate his right - voluntarily and unpaid - to participate in the defence of his country and its democratic values.

Tasks
surveillance and reporting
guarding, securing, and protection activities
 limited and uncomplicated combat operations.

http://www.hjv.dk/eng/Sider/forside.aspx
http://www.sfi.dk/summary_volunteers_in_the_danish_home_guard_2011-11890.aspx

In other words pretty much like the Canadian Rangers - except the Rangers get 12 days pay a year..... (pretty much unpaid)

The Danes maintain a guard of 48,000 unpaid volunteers with a population of 5.5 million each contributing an average of 100 hours per year although the Naval Homeguard averages up to 300 hours per year.  

That is roughly equivalent to Canada having 300,000 volunteers on hand, each contributing as many hours as a typical Canadian auxiliary constable is required to contribute, or the 85,000 volunteer Canadian firefighters contribute, or the 25,000 St John's Ambulance volunteers contribute, or the 19,000 volunteers of the Canadian Coast Guard Auxiliary, CASARA and SARVAC combined.

But I am sure that I am wrong and that it is impossible to raise unpaid volunteers capable of assisting the authorities in times of crisis.


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## Kirkhill (12 Sep 2014)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Combat operations are uncomplicated until the shooting starts...



True enough Jungle, but I suppose the difference between the Danish, Swedish and Norwegian attitudes and the Canadian attitude is influenced by what I said here:



> The underlying problem is that, unlike the Poles and Ukrainians and Russians, Canadians don't perceive any threat that would force them to pick up arms and kill the man in their front yard intent on slaughtering their family.  That threat is a nightmare in Eastern Europe.  It is a fantasy in Canada.



Apparently I am doing a really poor job of explaining my position, again.

I am not suggesting that the Canadian Government recruit 300,000 unpaid volunteers, give them 100 hours of training and a gun and send them off to Afghanistan.

I am suggesting that 300,000 unpaid volunteers, with a knowledge of military organization, some map and compass skills, rudimentary weapons handling skills and an ability to communicate and drive vehicles off road would have two primary benefits:

They would add to the pool of organized local volunteers available in the event of a local disaster or crisis and,
They would provide a recruiting pool in which "real" soldiers could be found for A,B,C or Reg service.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Sep 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I am suggesting that 300,000 unpaid volunteers, with a knowledge of military organization, some map and compass skills, rudimentary weapons handling skills and an ability to communicate and drive vehicles off road would have two primary benefits:
> 
> They would add to the pool of organized local volunteers available in the event of a local disaster or crisis and,
> They would provide a recruiting pool in which "real" soldiers could be found for A,B,C or Reg service.


Sort of like this for adults who can drive vehicles off road?

Sorry, I'm with EITS on this one:  no $ = no draw. 

I also have to agree with those saying it'll be hard to draw unpaid volunteers to help defend & protect because we haven't had a load of wars on our soil, unlike a lot of places with home guards and big post-conscription reserve forces.  I'm guessing volunteer auxiliary cops & firefighters generally do it to protect their home/families and their neighbours' homes/families from from threats you can put a finger on.  Much harder to motivate on a grander scale.

The reason high school military co-op programs draw is (based on old experience teaching on them and talking to folks who still do) is because it's one of the few co-ops that pay, and reasonably well at that.

Also, I don't think we need another layer of miliary/para-military infrastructure competing for resources with layers already in place.


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Sep 2014)

Well the Rangers are pretty close to a "unpaid reservist" I am not sure how much they get, but I suspect it ain't much. We also have Cadets and their leaders. We had the Pacific Coast Rangers out here, but the reality is that without a distinct mission, you aren't going to be able to recruit volunteers. As I had to explain to several organizations, volunteers don't work for free. They all want/need something. If your organization can fill that need/want then you have a successful volunteer. Also you will have to dispense with a lot of crap, because nobody is going to put up with crap for free. I did the pink paysheets, because we still got paid at other times and it was a small part of the time I worked and did get paid. We saw it as a bump in the road rather than a full time issue. Forget the volunteer stuff, we will need to pay to generate the numbers and keep people coming back. Another benefit of increasing reservist number is more people with a connection to the forces, which translate into a soft but real support at the political level and people will understand better what is needed when budget issues come up.

I would also like to see an increase in the Naval Reserves. I suspect Prince Rupert will be a good spot in the future, as well as one in the Western and one in the Eastern Arctic. Not sure where a good choice would be for the East coast? Base them around a vessel like the CB90 or a local commercial hull.

Since I am dreaming here, lets throw in 2 Air Reserve units, 1 flying a armed Hawk version and 1 flying Twin Otters as a Transport squadron. Most of these would be recently departed regular force pilots and airframe techs.


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## Kirkhill (12 Sep 2014)

Sorry, I still continue to disagree.

I suspect that there are large numbers of "enthusiasts" that spend small fortunes of their own money, and a considerable amount of their own time, developing skills that the community at large, and the CF in particular, could tap into.

Gun clubs
Radio clubs
Computer clubs
Off Road clubs
Snowmobile clubs
Boating clubs

etc.

I don't believe that we couldn't bring numbers of these people into the fold with an offer of free gas, free ammunition, a set of CadPats and an opportunity to get together with like minded individuals.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Sep 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Now troops will be spreading the unicorn rumour now.


Morale badge - done.

Since there's still good back & forth on this one, I've split the "Unpaid Militia" discussion from the "Reserve Role" discussion so the pluses/minuses of this volunteer corps idea can be hashed out in more detail.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


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## chrisf (12 Sep 2014)

SYEP predated me by a good bit, but from what I understand of it, I think it would be an ideal recruiting/retention tool...

Get people in the door for a "summer job", let them see it's a pretty good job, and they'll stick around for the rest of it.

Having taught many basic training courses that were for all intents and purposes "no fail", I also rather like the idea of not being required to retain all the graduates.


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## Kirkhill (12 Sep 2014)

SYEP also works with Swedish version of the Home Guard.

They are also an unpaid force with a 100 hours or so of service annually but they require some military training in advance.

The minimum is 85 days.  Or roughly SYEP's BMQ.

Ex Regs are accepted off the street.


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## Kirkhill (12 Sep 2014)

By the way, with respect to the morale badge and the unicorn.....

You already have one.


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Sep 2014)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> SYEP predated me by a good bit, but from what I understand of it, I think it would be an ideal recruiting/retention tool...



There is some dated data about the benefit of 1970's SYEP to CF recruiting, however, whether SYEP was a 'cost-effective' recruiting tool is open to question.  The pay and benefits portion of SYEP in the 1970s (like its big brother YTEP in the 1980s) did not come from the defence budget but was a Human Resources (or whatever they were called back then) pot of money.  Both of these programs came into existence because of the (perceived?) high youth unemployment rate, and the governments of the day thought that such measures were appropriate stop-gaps.  Such government programs were not confined solely to military solutions.  I recall some very specious organizations popping up and applying for SYEP funding in the early 1970s.

Considering the current political landscape I think it unlikely that such large scale "make work" projects would be resurrected.


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## OldSolduer (12 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I doubt you will ever see masses of untrained, unpaid, clothed in coveralls volunteer 'trainees' in Canada.  Bad publicity and bad politics.




I would have to agree. People volunteer for things like feed the hungry, soup kitchens, finding lost kittens and puppies etc....soft left wing feel good stuff, not learning how to assist with natural disasters and possibly having to assist in the defence of Canada itself - which is not easy.


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## cryco (12 Sep 2014)

As a potential reservist, i can tell you that money is definitely not a draw to join the reserves. At least for me.
I suspect that for most reservists that are not in school and have full time jobs, the money made from working those few hours at .85 of whatever it is doesn't top the chart. The main draw for me is to do something more to serve Canada.
Others may be to acquire skills, and yet some for the thrill. And then there's ex full timers.
I have an in law in the military and every time i saw him i would bombard him with questions. That's what slowly got me thinking about the army. Oh yes, and Call of Duty, MW2.


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## a_majoor (13 Sep 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Sorry, I still continue to disagree.
> 
> I suspect that there are large numbers of "enthusiasts" that spend small fortunes of their own money, and a considerable amount of their own time, developing skills that the community at large, and the CF in particular, could tap into.
> 
> ...



Wrong direction there. These people are some of the pools that the Regular Forces and Reserves should be looking into to find people with qualifications that can enhance the force by providing a broader and deeper pool of experiences. Having them enrolled and paid provides the motivation for them to continue to serve in the Comms squadrons, Naval Reserve, as Med Techs, Cyber etc., gives them some bragging rights and (hopefully) the draw of playing with the "really" cool stuff they don't otherwise have access to. We of course need to be able to find a way to recognize their skillsets (and ensure their military training is also recognized back in the Civilian world), which is actually a different topic. Since we probably can't roll out the cool toys due to budget cuts (much less buy new ones for the expanded force to play with), we really have nothing to offer on these grounds.

But most of these people are _already_ willing to do things out of their own pockets and getting together with like minded people, and I suspect that they will not volunteer for military discipline and hierarchy "just because" (_those_ people are War of 1812 reenactors....). 

The real solution, if any, is to have them properly trained, properly led, properly equipped, properly renumerated and properly accredited. In other words, a professional military force.


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## Kirkhill (13 Sep 2014)

Et Tu, Thucydides?  Credentialism and Professionalism?

Cave and mountain rescue teams.  Volunteer firefighters.  Coast Guard Auxiliary.... amongst others, including the Auxiliary police.  There you have five times as many Canadians as you have in the Army Reserve.  All of them undertaking rigorous training at their own expense.  All of them putting their lives at risk on a voluntary, unpaid basis.  All of them working with organizations under discipline.

And a couple of other factors - I would be willing to bet that they are generally gainfully employed and of more mature years than the youngsters that make up the majority of the Reserves.  These are not kids looking for a summer job.  They are adults who are looking for a bit of excitement and an opportunity to serve the community in a meaningful fashion.

Edit to add:

The whole point of the exercise that is being proposed is drawing in those "enthusiasts" with skills that have caught your eye.  Get them inside the tent where you can find out who is dedicated, who has the skills you need, who is just along for the ride.  Once you have them in your care then you can figure out how to use the part timers and also get a chance to pitch the rarified heights to the willing.


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## GR66 (13 Sep 2014)

Some people seem to be taking this concept as some kind of competing organization that will draw away people who would otherwise join the Primary Reserve.  I don't see it this way at all.  I think a much better way to think of it would be adding a new MOSID to the CF..."Militiaman".  These members would be in the same Reserve units as the Class-A Reservists, just with a different MOSID.  The difference is that this MOSID is unpaid and it has no specific trade progression or promotions.  You'd parade with the Regiment and exercise with the Regiment.  You'd receive non-career course type training in all the various areas of instruction that are provided by the Regiment.  

I have a tough time thinking that having more willing bodies active in the Regiments would be a bad thing.  Would training be improved if you could put a Company in the field for an exercise instead of a Platoon?  Wouldn't there be more leadership opportunities for Junior NCMs with a larger body of recruits?  Some of these volunteer members that stick around for a while may also become real assets to their units with their civi skills or even just their accumulated experience from being with the unit for an extended period of time.  

I'm also not suggesting that bringing in hordes of volunteer recruits should be a prime focus of any unit.  Some units might only have a tiny handful of volunteers (or even none at all) while others may have a more significant number parading.  I just think it's a good way to make the CF more inviting to those curious about serving and giving those people an opportunity to serve in whatever way they can.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Sep 2014)




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## Kirkhill (13 Sep 2014)

Sounds painful  :nod:


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## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Sounds painful  :nod:


Only if there's a sudden stop ....


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## daftandbarmy (14 Sep 2014)

Cadets are technically 'military volunteers'. 

They dress up in uniforms, march around, fire rifles, fly planes and sail ships. The cost to the CF is minimal.

Why not just extend the age limit for Army, Navy and Air Cadets?


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Sep 2014)

While there may be an opportunity, the Feds would never allow it.

The liability issue is enough to shut the whole thing down, before it starts.

This thread is nothing more than speculation and wishful thinking, that will never come to  any kind of fruition.

Let's stop wasting bandwith on useless speculation.


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## Stoker (14 Sep 2014)

As people have mentioned before, why not expand the Canadian Rangers to other areas of Canada? I would imagine there wouldn't be any problems recruiting people either ex military or civilians. This would bring a presence to areas with no military nearby and would be very useful in an emergency.


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## daftandbarmy (14 Sep 2014)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> As people have mentioned before, why not expand the Canadian Rangers to other areas of Canada? I would imagine there wouldn't be any problems recruiting people either ex military or civilians. This would bring a presence to areas with no military nearby and would be very useful in an emergency.



And based on the numbers, I'd say that places like Vancouver would include those areas where the Rangers could help us increase our profile as a military  :nod:


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## Kirkhill (14 Sep 2014)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> As people have mentioned before, why not expand the Canadian Rangers to other areas of Canada? I would imagine there wouldn't be any problems recruiting people either ex military or civilians. This would bring a presence to areas with no military nearby and would be very useful in an emergency.



Like it.


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## RangerRay (14 Sep 2014)

I'm not sure how this idea would work.

Back in BC, I was a member of a volunteer search and rescue organisation.  Training was paid for, as well as expenses for tasks and traveling to training out-of-town.  As well, unlike other SAR groups in the province, ours was one of the few with full funding from the regional district, so we had all the toys.  Unlike most other SAR groups, we did not have to fund raise.  The only things the individual had to supply was their clothing and personal gear, and their time. 

In spite of all this, it reminded me of my time in the PRes.  Our group had close to 100 members on paper, yet only the same dozen or so members actually showed up regularly for practices and tasks.  Other SAR groups with less funding had the same problem of retaining dedicated volunteers.

The few people with higher level training (e.g. search managers, team leaders, etc.) burnt out fast because they were needed to assist other teams, and because they needed to work more during their own time to perform administrative functions for the team. 

If the volunteers were paid at least an honorarium for their time, would we have more people showing up?  I don't know.  Or maybe people didn't like getting calls at 6 pm on a cold, wet November Sunday evening to go look for a lost hunter...?

The PRes had pay, and we were hard pressed to field a platoon.  The SAR group had no pay but all the bells and whistles, but we would still have to call for help from neighbouring teams that were not as well equipped because we either lacked the numbers or the needed people with special skills.  I think it boils down to more people having less spare time, or less willingness to devote time, to serve in these types of teams.


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## Old Sweat (14 Sep 2014)

Speaking from a level of abject ignorance, having never served in either organization, what are the similarities and differences between the militia and a typical volunteer fire department (VFD?) An obvious one is that the latter tends to be in smaller communities, but is there something to be gained by a comparison?


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## Kirkhill (14 Sep 2014)

Thanks for the "coalface" response Ray.

It sounds as if you were suffering from the same Flank Company problem as always.

Here's a question - does the organization of the units have to modified to reflect the low turnout and the need to bolster local "forces" with additional "troops" from adjacent areas?  I note that the Swedes, Danes and Norwegians all subdivide their Volunteers into Ready Reaction with about 10% of the volunteers and the remainder.

A second question would be where is money better invested for drawing in volunteers?  Bells and whistles or pay?  You said that the PRes was paid but had few "toys".  The SAR groups had "toys" but weren't paid.   Do you have any sense of how that played out in terms of recruiting and retention?


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## Tibbson (14 Sep 2014)

As any number of lawyers will tell you, waivers are not worth the paper they are written on so the issue of having to pay them from the start would not be an issue.


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## Colin Parkinson (15 Sep 2014)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how this idea would work.
> 
> Back in BC, I was a member of a volunteer search and rescue organisation.  Training was paid for, as well as expenses for tasks and traveling to training out-of-town.  As well, unlike other SAR groups in the province, ours was one of the few with full funding from the regional district, so we had all the toys.  Unlike most other SAR groups, we did not have to fund raise.  The only things the individual had to supply was their clothing and personal gear, and their time.
> 
> ...



A good response, regardless of the volunteer group 10% do 90% of the work. I know that our own SAR group here in the Northshore is worried about the call out demand on it and funding.


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## Monsoon (15 Sep 2014)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Speaking from a level of abject ignorance, having never served in either organization, what are the similarities and differences between the militia and a typical volunteer fire department (VFD?) An obvious one is that the latter tends to be in smaller communities, but is there something to be gained by a comparison?


Having spoken quite a bit about this with a friend who was a volunteer in Kingston before becoming part of their full-time service (they have a mix of both), the relationship between the two is a strange dynamic. The volunteers are subject to roughly the same standards and receive approximately the same training as the full time service, but are paid by the call. The volunteers end up responding to the majority of calls as they comprise the stuff the full-timers are deemed too important to be wasted on (vehicle accidents on the 401, etc), while the full-timers wait back in the station for one of the occasional major fires. Of course the full-timers jealously guard against any expansion of the volunteer service as they recognize it as a threat to their franchise...

...so in almost every important way, the comparison is spot on.  ;D


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## Mike5 (15 Sep 2014)

The Canadian Coast Guard Auxilary was cited earlier in this discussion as an example.  For what it's worth, my CCGA station has 45 uniformed, trained, experienced volunteers on the water doing patrols 32 hours every week during the boating season (more if there is a callout after duty hours) -- on an annual grant which is less then one average person's salary.  

That being said, there are real challenges with a volunteer force.  As noted above, 10% of the people do 90% of the work, training standards vary dramatically from crew to crew and station to station, attendance is always a problem.  Most of our folks are either young guys who want to get experience in order to get hired by a fire department or retired / off-duty military / EMS / police.


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## Remius (15 Sep 2014)

Part of the issue is the NDA.  If you are dealing with an all volunteer non paid force/element how do you enforce the NDA?


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## Lightguns (15 Sep 2014)

Hard enough to get folks out when you pay em.  Imagine the odds and sods that would show up for an unpaid militia.


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## Old Sweat (15 Sep 2014)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Having spoken quite a bit about this with a friend who was a volunteer in Kingston before becoming part of their full-time service (they have a mix of both), the relationship between the two is a strange dynamic. The volunteers are subject to roughly the same standards and receive approximately the same training as the full time service, but are paid by the call. The volunteers end up responding to the majority of calls as they comprise the stuff the full-timers are deemed too important to be wasted on (vehicle accidents on the 401, etc), while the full-timers wait back in the station for one of the occasional major fires. Of course the full-timers jealously guard against any expansion of the volunteer service as they recognize it as a threat to their franchise...
> 
> ...so in almost every important way, the comparison is spot on.  ;D



A number of us are in the "garage gang" which gathers afternoons for a few beer and a recap of the day. Three of the gang were in the local VFD and two also served in the local militia field battery. Methinks the next time I get with them I will do some brain picking. Our VFD was and still is pretty effective and picked up a number of awards in various competitions. In fact they were good enough to earn us a reduction in our fire insurance rates.


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## Colin Parkinson (15 Sep 2014)

Wasn't there a Albertan Group that filled this "void"


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## Stoker (15 Sep 2014)

Has anyone had any experience with the Canadian Rangers? I was wondering what their typical attendance is for training and patrols? I know they do get paid for part of what they do. I also know that many Ranger Patrols have a waiting list of people wanting to join.


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## McG (15 Sep 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a Albertan Group that filled this "void"


Do you mean this:  http://www.frontiersmenhistorian.info/canada.htm ?


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Sep 2014)

I was thinking the "Alberta light rifles" or something along that line sort of a wannabe "free militia"


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## RangerRay (18 Sep 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Thanks for the "coalface" response Ray.
> 
> It sounds as if you were suffering from the same Flank Company problem as always.
> 
> ...



In answer to your first question, I think the organisation is modified in that there are fewer people in executive positions doing more work that would normally be by others.  People were elected to the positions every year at the AGM (usually getting 20 - 30 people to show up) but it was pretty rare if there was an actual race.  Usually, the incumbent would be acclaimed unless he stepped down, and if it looked like some positions would not get filled, senior members would try to "recruit" some of the more keen members to "run" during one of the breaks in the meeting.

For the second question, I think the "toys" helped with initial recruitment, but when people saw the time commitment required, and the length of time to get on a basic training course in the local area (sound familiar?) people drifted away.  Like the PRes, one requires Basic SAR, usually held at the local level, before one can take more specialised "cooler" training like swift water rescue, ropes, avalanche, etc.  But to get a local Basic SAR course, there has to be numbers.  If there are only two new members, it is not worth the expense to run a course locally, and those two new members may not be able to travel to another part of the province to train with another team.

To me, it seemed that there were so many parallels between PRes and volunteer SAR even though there were huge differences in pay and funding.  I don't know what the answer is, except that maybe people feel that they have less spare time to devote to outside organisations.  Even the "young, single guys" were probably at the low end of commitment, leaving the day-to-day operations to the older married people who presumably have less time than the young single guys, but a greater sense of commitment.

 :dunno:


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## cryco (27 Jan 2015)

Hi all, 
I am wondering as a potential reservist, let me set up the hypothetical scenario:
I show up one weekend a month and one night a week. One particular weekend, my wife and kids are not home, but it's not an 'on' weekend. Can I, on my own time, go somewhere to do some training, say rifle practice (ammo on my own dime?), or participate in something somewhere (say an exercise, or even just some PT)?


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## LightFighter (27 Jan 2015)

I'm not sure what you are asking?  Do you mean go shooting with your issued weapon, etc on a weekend there is no exercise?  Absolutely not. What do you mean by participate on an exercise? If your unit isn't going out, than generally you aren't either - unless there is a brigade tasking that you have a CFTPO for, or you are on a course.
If you have your own civilian rifle and belong to a civilian range, you can go shooting as much or as little as you want.  As well, you can PT whenever you want at home, a gym, etc.


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## ModlrMike (27 Jan 2015)

Your attendance must be authorized in order for you to be paid. If your unit is not holding a parade or administration session, then the answer will be no. PT you can do on your own, but you won't be paid for it.


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## cryco (27 Jan 2015)

I wasn't looking for paid stuff, the money is irrelevant. I'm just looking to know if there's any way you can do extra stuff on your own time but with army equipment and tools.
So there's no army range where you can go shoot with issued weapons? (firing with my personal rifle is not the same as using a c7) So if your unit is not on exercise, there's nowhere to go? 
The unit is empty on non duty weekends?


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## ModlrMike (27 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> I wasn't looking for paid stuff, the money is irrelevant. I'm just looking to know if there's any way you can do extra stuff on your own time but with army equipment and tools.
> So there's no army range where you can go shoot with issued weapons? (firing with my personal rifle is not the same as using a c7) So if your unit is not on exercise, there's nowhere to go?
> The unit is empty on non duty weekends?



No, you may not perform unpaid service as a Reservist. There are no iterations of this question that will result in yes.


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## cryco (27 Jan 2015)

lol, ok, I got it


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## daftandbarmy (27 Jan 2015)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> No, you may not perform unpaid service as a Reservist. There are no iterations of this question that will result in yes.



I was talking to a guy who had to 'voluntarily parade' wayyyy back in the 70s. He got screwed on his pension, of course, because they didn't track his time.


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## cryco (27 Jan 2015)

I was mostly hoping that it would be possible to go practice with the c7 more than the required time on bmq for a reservist. Even if it means paying for the ammo out of pocket.


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## Nfld Sapper (27 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> I was mostly hoping that it would be possible to go practice with the c7 more than the required time on bmq for a reservist. Even if it means paying for the ammo out of pocket.



Yeah FULL STOP that ain't ever, never, gonna happen.....

MILNET.CA MENTOR


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## OldSolduer (27 Jan 2015)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Yeah FULL STOP that ain't ever, never, gonna happen.....
> 
> MILNET.CA MENTOR



Correct, but the principles of marksmanship do not change.


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## Loachman (27 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> I was mostly hoping that it would be possible to go practice with the c7 more than the required time on bmq for a reservist. Even if it means paying for the ammo out of pocket.



They are classified as "probited weapons" in the Criminal Code and are very tightly controlled.

Thirty-round magazines are also prohibited by the Criminal Code.

You would not be allowed to sign one out, or put your own ammunition through one, and ranges are also very tightly controlled. 

Unless you were on duty.

Civilian AR15s are "Restricted Weapons" under the Criminal Code. You can take the course and get a Restricted Possession and Acquisition Licence and buy one, and join a gun club. This would not be cheap, but it would be the closest that you could get.

Wait until you're in and at least semi-trained before bothering.


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## Nfld Sapper (27 Jan 2015)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Correct, but the principles of marksmanship do not change.



True, then the OP could buy a rifle and go to the local Gun Club and fire off rounds....


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## Brasidas (27 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> So if your unit is not on exercise, there's nowhere to go?



There are reserve trades that are more likely than others to be tasked on the exercises of other units; Signals and Medics come to mind. In the past, there have been more requests for these support positions than there have been personnel willing to fill them. It depends on your trade, your location, what the training tempo is for nearby units, and their willingness to plan and request support in a timely manner.

You would be paid by the gaining unit.


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## OldSolduer (27 Jan 2015)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> True, then the OP could buy a rifle and go to the local Gun Club and fire off rounds....



Exactly. A Ruger .22 would be a good start.


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## cryco (27 Jan 2015)

Yes, I could, I have both my permits, am a member at a club but do not own an AR. I've considered it, and probably will end up buying one (no rush), as marksmanship (or the attempt at) is a beautiful thing.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> Yes, I could, I have both my permits, am a member at a club but do not own an AR. I've considered it, and probably will end up buying one (no rush), as marksmanship (or the attempt at) is a beautiful thing.



Hopefully you don't get one of those clubs that banned "rapid firing".


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## cryco (27 Jan 2015)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> There are reserve trades that are more likely than others to be tasked on the exercises of other units; Signals and Medics come to mind. In the past, there have been more requests for these support positions than there have been personnel willing to fill them. It depends on your trade, your location, what the training tempo is for nearby units, and their willingness to plan and request support in a timely manner.
> 
> You would be paid by the gaining unit.



thanks for the info. I'm looking to join the combat engineers, so it's probably not as high in demand as the trades you mentioned.
And for the record, I've fired many boxes of rounds out of my 597, I'm not crazy or rich enough to learn on a larger caliber.


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## Dissident (28 Jan 2015)

My question would be: How much disposable income do you have? You want to shoot on your own, I can certainly relate. It is not cheap, but it is possible. I have not heard of many courses or training opportunities in Quebec, but they do exist. 

I will tell you this: many people get hung up on using a copy which is as close as possible to the C7. While using an AR15/M16FOW is imperative in my books (for commonality of manual of arms/drills) getting trigger time is the important part. 

If you are committed to getting some trigger time on your own, please send me a PM and I will guide you through the initial steps. But no, it won't happen through your unit.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> thanks for the info. I'm looking to join the combat engineers, so it's probably not as high in demand as the trades you mentioned.
> And for the record, I've fired many boxes of rounds out of my 597, I'm not crazy or rich enough to learn on a larger caliber.



Engineers? You should try to get a job with a blasting crew then before you sign up!


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## OldSolduer (29 Jan 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Engineers? You should try to get a job with a blasting crew then before you sign up!



Blowin crap up is fun!


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Jan 2015)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Blowin crap up is fun!



Yes it is!


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## cryco (29 Jan 2015)

Hehe, that would be something. It may be a little more complicated to do some blasting on the side than some practice with an AR15.


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## Lightguns (29 Jan 2015)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Yes it is!



I prefer the precision of artillery delivered in a gentlemanly fashion. 8)


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## Nfld Sapper (29 Jan 2015)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I prefer the precision of artillery delivered in a gentlemanly fashion. 8)



 :nana: ;D


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## OldSolduer (29 Jan 2015)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> :nana: ;D



I like it when my Engineer friends blow Sh!t up! 

I also like precision fire of a large calibre rifle.


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