# How Australia‘s military does with less



## kurokaze (7 Aug 2003)

Canada.com Story 



> LONDON - The Canadian army will be stretched to the limit and perhaps beyond for the next year and a half, rotating 1,900 soldiers at a time through two six-month tours in Afghanistan where it takes over from Germany next week.
> 
> Meanwhile, Australia, which landed nearly 5,000 fighting troops at one time on Timor in 2000 and still has troops there, also made a modest contribution to the Anglo-American fighting force in Iraq. The country also dispatched 1,500 soldiers to the Solomon Islands, east of New Guinea, last month to lead a peacekeeping force that was put together so quickly it does not have a mandate from the UN or any other international organization.
> 
> ...


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## Cycophant (7 Aug 2003)

I‘m no master of budgets or fiscal responsibility, but this just doesn‘t make sense.

How on _earth_ can the Australian government, for essentially the same amount of money (1 billion more, that‘s it) afford so much more equipment and supplies?  I guess perhaps a more likely and plausable question is, what are we doing _wrong_ that we can‘t do the same?

Then again, I‘m making my way through the book _Tarnished Brass_, and I‘m beginning to see where all the money‘s gone/going...


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Aug 2003)

I don‘t get it‘ we allegedly pledge all this money to education, and yet the headline a week ago was the girl who researched a cure for Alzheimers and was turned down by 4 Canadian universities until Princeton gave her a scholarship.

WTF?  It wouldn‘t be so bad being a laughing stock militarily, IF one could think that the money was actually being used to further not just Canadian interests, but world interests.   So where is all this ‘education‘ money going?


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## Island_recce (7 Aug 2003)

Well, I suppose if you start adding up how much $$ we spend on English/French Translation, and the $$ spent on the second language training  schools we operate, and all the other "mickey mouse" stuff we spend the $$ on you will realize why we don‘t have the same capabilty as the Aussie‘s do.

It would also be very interesting to see a comparison of salaries bewteen the Aussie‘s and us, including what their senior officers are paid.


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## Danjanou (7 Aug 2003)

Michael you have to remember that Papa Jean needs all that taxpayers money for his "legacy." That is aside from a billion misplaced here and a billion mispent there.

But what a legacy it will be. A disarmed, broke, illiterate, but politically correct country.

I wonder how hard it is to immigrate to Australia if you‘re not a pilot or a squid, but just a beat up old grunt?


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## muskrat89 (7 Aug 2003)

Tarnished Brass, even if it is only half true - made me sick. i wonder if Australia has the same problems (some may say benefits) with patronage as we do. I remember the BS when we were replacing the 5/4s - Western Stars falling apart at trials, and the govt we-writing the bid standards to meet what they had. It is all sickening. Like Danjanou said, in the movie thread - I think the Aussies have more military pride, as a nation, than we do - I‘m sure thats a factor, as well.


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## Wingman (7 Aug 2003)

To help answer what the Australians get paid here is a link to their pay structures:

 http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dpedet/ADF%20Pay%20&%20Conditions/Volume%201/Chapter%202/Part%201/Part%201%20Annexes.htm 

Cheers.


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## Danjanou (7 Aug 2003)

Nice link wingman, for those interested in seeing how much your Aussie counterpart makes as of today the Australian Dollar was trading at 91 cents Cdn.

What this doesn‘t really show though is how much their military members receive in regards to other subsidies, ie rates for military housing, their version of Canex, various other allowances, any tax breaks etc. That would affect how much a Aussie soldier makes in "real" dollars. 

Anyone care to guess that they get more bang for their buck there too.


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## SpinDoc (7 Aug 2003)

Hmmm, looks like their pay rates are structured similar to the U.S. -- NCM pay doesn‘t catch up to 2Lt/Lt rates until the rank of Sgt.  Does this mean that the Aussies and America junior officers are paid well and privates/corporals paid poorly or does it mean that Canadian corporals get paid well and junior officers get poor pay?

The difference in bang for the buck the govt spend might be accounted for in legacy costs (I‘m using "legacy" in the generic, business term and not the "Chretien‘s Legacy" form) for various projects and social benefits in the military.  It‘s sort of like how GM and Ford have higher costs than Honda and Nissan -- higher legacy costs.


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## Wingman (7 Aug 2003)

*****
RE:  What this doesn‘t really show though is how much their military members receive in regards to other subsidies, ie rates for military housing, their version of Canex, various other allowances, any tax breaks etc. That would affect how much a Aussie soldier makes in "real" dollars. 
*****

The same site but this lists the publications that outline pay, conditions and personnel policy.  You‘ll have to do some investigating to get the information you seek.

 http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dpe_site/categories/pay.htm   

This would make a good report!  If only I had more time....


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## Jungle (7 Aug 2003)

> What this doesn‘t really show though is how much their military members receive in regards to other subsidies, ie rates for military housing, their version of Canex, various other allowances, any tax breaks etc. That would affect how much a Aussie soldier makes in "real" dollars


From memory, in Timor during the INTERFET mission, Aussie soldiers were earning $110(aust)a day in total allowances, tax-free... just about 3 times what we received. The Kiwis followed by adjusting their rates accordingly... we didn‘t. Now, in the CF, someone gets more money if they live in barracks or a hotel (TD allowance: $11/ day, tax-free)then when in the field (FOA: $16/ day, taxable)... go figure.


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## Cycophant (7 Aug 2003)

> Tarnished Brass, even if it is only half true - made me sick


I‘m only about 3 chapters into the book, and I‘m already sick about it all.  Not to mention a fair bit worried.  

I know that all this occured about 7-8 years ago (though it had been occuring for a good decade or two beforehand), but I still have this grave concern that nothing‘s changed.  We‘re still bloated with officers, far too many are "self-serving careerists", and therefore the end grunts get screwed over.  Please tell me this isn‘t the case, or at least that things have improved slightly...


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## A_Berry (7 Aug 2003)

Man O‘ Man could I get stuck into this one...

As I am new here, let me introduce myself and give you a little of my background.  I am an ex-Canadian Reservist with 22 years of service most of it at the rank of Sergeant and working as a transport NCO for several different Corps.  6 years ago, I moved down to Australia to follow a woman I now call wife (and "Maam").  She also is a Reservist (Nursing Officer).  

So I think that I can give a unique view on this thread, as I have hands-on experience in both venues.

After joining the Army at 16, I wanted to continue serving when I moved here.  The Canadians would not let me Parade when I was here (even voluntarily-unpaid), yet the Australian were keen to have me (and did let me "Parade" for a couple of years).  When the move became permanent, I had to release and stop Parading here.  It took me more than 4 years to get my citizenship and my eligibility to join the Defence Force (I was literally sworn in the day after I became eligible).  If I was a "Regular", I could (in theory) have moved straight across and been given citizenship (so much for the "Total Force Concept").

Now I am a plug recruit who at 43 will have to do an Induction Course if I cannot get my Docs out of Ottawa. Mind you, they are willing to do "Recognition of Prior Learning".

I work in a unit that is a "Regional Force Surveillance Unit" (RFSU) that is classed as Infantry but operates more like a recce unit in that we are responsible for coastal defence in the remote Northwest of Australia.  We are luckier than most Reserve units in that we are an operational unit and get better equipment than most  - mind you we have an AO the size of 1/2 of Western Canada with about 50000 people and no grenade or heavy weapon range.

I believe that the Australians are better paid overall (a Private with his trades training gets between $36-42K depending on location/trade) which is quite respectable.  As a recruit I get $54 a day - Tax Free - I think my wife as a LT get $85.  Australians on a whole have a much different slant on benefits, entitlements and allowances.  Due to the size of the country, companies like the one I work for, think nothing of flying in workers from the other side of the country and flying them home every few weeks.  Culturally, they are far different in this regard.

I could go on-and-on regarding some of the differences, yet we have many similarities - more than we would with the Americans.

There are a number of "half truths" in the above quote - just this week the government is talking about standing down the F-111‘s.  The Collins-Class subs they speak of are one of the last governments most embarrassing purchases due to the outrageous costs and poor performance.  They have no "attack" helicopters that I am aware of - they have had Blackhawks and Seahawks for a number of years mind you.  

I think that Australia is putting more money in "Operational units" - keeping them manned up and equipped (as I am part of one, it is hard for me to see how this hurts the other units).  Personally, I think that the Canadians are better trained - I parade far less here, the NCOs are far older (at 43 I would still be considered a young Sgt, we have a 52 year-old Pte!).

Canada is considered the world peacekeeper - I believe that they have found their niche there and are comfortable with it.

They have little need for landing craft in today‘s world - that is why Australia is leasing high-speed ferries to the US.

Australia has had it own version of 9-11 with the bombing in Bali - it hits home so harshly because Bali is THE favourite holiday destination for Australians.

There... I have vented... sorry for the long diatribe, but I was bored here at work!


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## SpinDoc (8 Aug 2003)

Thanks Adrian for the enlightening glimpse!  Wow, if Pte‘s are considered to be respectably paid, then jr officers are practically paid like middle managers?

Very interesting to know that there ARE indeed OTHER countries who buy crappy hardware... I guess it‘s very easy to "ooooh and ahhhh" about other people‘s toys.  Would it be wrong to say that Australia‘s procurement methods also focus on domestic industry off-sets?


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## A_Berry (8 Aug 2003)

Besides the gap in exchange rate, living costs are higher here (20-25%) but still at $40K you are still well above the poverty line.

The Australians are less focused on local procurement for intermediate level equipment (vehicles and the like) - they are blessed with a great shipbuilding industry and near zero air industry.

One idea of unique cost-cutting is the elimination of the elastic shock cord in the pant cuffs - they now issue the classic American-made boot bands as being more cost effective instead of having specially made olive shock cord made and installed in each pair.


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## Danjanou (8 Aug 2003)

Adrian, thanks for the information. It definately answered some of the questions that have been raised here since this thread opened, in regards to benefits, and more importantly the public‘s and government‘s attitude towards the military there.

A 43 year old Pte eh, maybe I should consider getting back in? Got room for another middle aged grunt down there?


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## Infanteer (8 Aug 2003)

I‘ve said it before and I‘ll say it again (Mr. Dorosh will again agree with me)

The Grass is always Greener on the Other Side of the Fence


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## A_Berry (8 Aug 2003)

Danjanou - 

The attatude towards the military down here is incredible - a couple of years ago I marched in the Anzac Day parade with the North American contingent - there was 200,000 people along the parade route - you will get 10-15,000 people show up at the Dawn Service at 05:00.

In the small town where I am (14,000) we had 600 people show up for the Dawn Service - they are very pround of thier Anzac heritage - *and it gets passed down to thier children!* Children and grandchildren proudly wear thier relatives medals on Anzac Day.


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## Danjanou (8 Aug 2003)

Ah to dream of greener pastures, but alas too many commitments in this part of the world. Sorry Infanteer, that means you‘re stuck with me. 

Adrian, planning a trip to your hemisphere next year, mainly Japan, Phillipines, and maybe Thailand, but if I end up going all that way I just might try and squeeze in another country. If I do, I‘ll let you treat me to some of that good Aussie beer.


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## A_Berry (9 Aug 2003)

The nice part of living where I do, is you can say "sure, come and visit" and only 1 in 100 will ever realy consider it when you look at where it is on the map.


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## Jungle (9 Aug 2003)

A_Berry, you must be in the Pilbara Regt. Very interesting use of Reserves, one I think we should look at here.
I communicate regularly, via e-mail, with a friend who is a Sgt in the Reg Aust Infantry (RAR). There is discussion of reducing the number of Inf Batts to four, including 4 RAR (CDO) which belongs SOCOMD. So we are not doing that bad with 9 Inf Batts, (6 x LAV and 3 x Light). The big difference is in capabilities: we have more units, they have more hardware (ie: TPT ships etc...) As stated in the article, I sailed on the Tobruk from Darwin to Suai, and I found it very impressive to have the ability to land troops and supplies anywhere even without a port.
So yes Infanteer: the old saying about the grass being greener certainly applies... especially in the winter !!!


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## Jungle (9 Aug 2003)

> From memory, in Timor during the INTERFET mission, Aussie soldiers were earning $110(aust)a day in total allowances


Well, I stand corrected... here is what I found:   





> Allowances will be reduced from the current $125 per day,


This is from an Aussie forum. As you can see, our allowances are not that great... although I don‘t go on ops for the money, it‘s certainly nice when you come back with a few thousand $$$ to spare.


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## A_Berry (12 Aug 2003)

Just to set the record straight - the ADF has ordered 22 Tiger Attack Helicopters (thanks Kevin) with delivery starting next year.


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## Aussie (13 Aug 2003)

In the Australian Army at the moment we have six infantry battalions.

1RAR - Light Infantry
2RAR - Light Infantry
3RAR - Parachute
4RAR - Commando
5/7RAR - Mechanised
6RAR - Light Infantry

The move to cut it to four battalions was made bfore Timor and was scraped when the deployment came up, with the goverment announcing the the army would keep all six battalions.

Many higher ups in the army want an increse to eight or nine battalions, but I doubt it will happen.

It seems like you guys have more battalions, but ours are more mobile.


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## northamericanrebel (20 Nov 2003)

Hmmmm....vic bitter and fosters....that speaks for itself LOL


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## RCD (21 Nov 2003)

Well we are still waiting for our goverment to paid last year gas bills, are boats are being tied up.But they found some 119 million money for the Air Force with broken patch up planes for new green combat uniforms,& just this week our Forces wasted 100,000 dollars on a Cdn Forces logo that was rejected. On a personal note while in the forces in Calgary & Central Canada it was/is cheaper to buy a house than to lived in the PMQ,S No more subsidies.Just taxes & more taxes. and not to forget user fee‘s NO LIFE LIKE IT!


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## Slim (21 Nov 2003)

Were you with the LdSH(RC)? Sounds like you‘re talking about Harvey/Currie Barracks around 1990!


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## patt (21 Nov 2003)

yes i can agree with you PMQ‘s are the sh*ts and they are not worth the money that we pay to rent them


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## GForce (27 Nov 2003)

Perhaps they need to increase soldier‘s paychecks. After 20 seconds of thinking i‘ve come down to that.


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## Thompson_JM (30 Dec 2003)

Perhaps the politicians should try to promote more value into the CF and educate the citizens of canada about the very real need to maintain and promote an effective military. (we dont have to be big, just good) there seems to be a lack of concern in ottawa about the CF. and the lack of concern spreads out and all over the country. As one member so eliquently put it in another thread. "The same people who complain about how the CF gets too much money as it is, will be the first to whine when something happens and we need the CF and it cant respond" 

somedays it feels like you just cant win..


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