# Roman Sword found in Nova Scotia questions history of Americas



## CougarKing (20 Dec 2015)

EDITED TO ADD: Could one of the moderators please move this thread to the Military History section?  

If the Vikings make it to Newfoundland, why is it so far-fetched that a even earlier Roman galley made it this far? 

Daily Buzz/Yahoo News



> *Sword discovered off Nova Scotia’s Oak Island questions history of Americas*
> 
> An ancient artifact discovered near Nova Scotia’s Oak Island is forcing experts to question the history of the Americas. An eyebrow-raising new report suggests that mariners arrived to the New World more than a thousand years before Columbus.
> 
> ...


----------



## midget-boyd91 (20 Dec 2015)

I live a matter of yards from Oak Island, in fact if it weren't dark outside I would be looking at the island out my bedroom window as I type. All I'll say right now is that anything that comes from the mouth or keyboard of J. Hutton Pulitzer is to be taken not with a grain or even a pound of salt.. but with a dump-truck full. 

There have been a few recent issues with him regarding Oak Island that have shown that sensationalism to get a headline or a couple thousand views on a blog or facebook are his method of operation.  He's akin to the lad who claimed to have shot and killed bigfoot last year and sold tickets to see the body.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Dec 2015)

What!  A kid shot Big Foot?


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Dec 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What!  A kid shot Big Foot?


Skewered with a Roman sword of some sort on the East Coast ... (that's how RUMINT starts)  ;D


----------



## Franko (20 Dec 2015)

The "Roman" sword can be bought on eBay for approx £75.

It's a fraud like it was expected. There's a reason why the MSM based in Halifax didn't touch it with a 10' pole.

Regards


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (20 Dec 2015)

Personally, I would not be surprised one bit if real Roman artefacts were found on the shores of North America one day - but it would not change history one bit.

"Discovering" a new land and exploiting it requires travels in both direction, so you report the discovery and mount an effort to go again and explore. It does not include accidentally ending up there - stuck.

And it is this second way of arriving in the New World I have in mind for the Romans. They travelled regularly out of the Strait of Gibraltar, along the Spanish and French coasts and up to England. It is simple logic to think that some of that traffic was caught off guard by storms. Many of them were never seen again, I am sure. Most simply sank, but a few must have survived the storm, but found themselves out of sight from the coasts, disoriented (you only navigated by sight in those days, unless you were Phoenician and in on the secret of compass) and after many days, found themselves on the Coast of North America, but never to return to Rome to report the discovery (as they would not have known how).

Doesn't mean that the Crazies that are obsessed with Oak Island haven't faked this, though.   :christmas happy:

After all,some of you may remember that in 1947, some scientists proved that the Mayan culture could have arisen from the Egyptians (there are many similarities in beliefs and things like  astronomy and pyramids, etc) when they crossed the ocean on a raft made of papyrus, the Kon Tiki. Of course, the original idea with the Kon Tiki was to prove that Polynesia could have been discovered and developed by the by the Mayans, not the other way around, but it worked both ways for the real scientists.


----------



## OldTanker (20 Dec 2015)

Oak Island has been a topic of family discussion since I was a child (early '60s at least). My Dad is from Nova Scotia and it was a topic of discussion in his family even before that. To say it is a lasting mystery is an understatement. I visited Oak Island in the mid-'70s and if nothing else, found it "spooky". Of course that could be just all the ruminations over the years working on my mind. My logical brain and conventional wisdom says there is nothing there, just natural formations, innocuous use of the Island hundreds of years ago and over-eager treasure hunters (and outright charlatans). But my illogical brain really, really, really wants them to find something amazing. I guess its just the hidden treasure hunter in us all. I'm watching the latest series (The Curse of Oak Island on the History Channel) with rapt attention, being entertained if nothing else (seriously guys, got money to burn?). Jeeze I hope they find something  :nod:


----------



## NavyShooter (20 Dec 2015)

We did a family tour of Oak Island in the summer.  Paid our $$, got the walking tour.  

It was neat to see the locations and equipment in person, but I truly have my doubts that they will ever find anything out there.

The idea of 'engineers' from centuries ago creating the water tunnels, etc, is, well, kind of far-fetched in my opinion.

I wish them well, but their disregard of basic safety in some of the filming leaves me.....concerned....for their 'one more must die' part of the 'curse'.

NS


----------



## medicineman (20 Dec 2015)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> I wish them well, but their disregard of basic safety in some of the filming leaves me.....concerned....for their 'one more must die' part of the 'curse'.
> 
> NS



I keep telling my wife when I'm watching that show that they should just toss the really old dude down the 10X shaft and get if over with already - everything will mysteriously appear then 8).

MM


----------



## jollyjacktar (20 Dec 2015)

Could a Roman sword also not have made it across by a later traveller who could have been using something left behind after the Romans took their ball and left England to the barbarians?


----------



## Old Sweat (20 Dec 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Could a Roman sword also not have made it across by a later traveller who could have been using something left behind after the Romans took their ball and left England to the barbarians?



Anything is possible, but I suggest someone who would bring one would be apt to be well off, and why the heck would he or she then toss something valuable enough to bring across the Atlantic down a shaft, or do whatever, on an obscure Nova Scotian island? Perhaps someone looking for some instant and fleeting fame, or perhaps trying to throw a side issue into the argument is more likely.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Dec 2015)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Anything is possible, but I suggest someone who would bring one would be apt to be well off, and why the heck would he or she then toss something valuable enough to bring across the Atlantic down a shaft, or do whatever, on an obscure Nova Scotian island? Perhaps someone looking for some instant and fleeting fame, or perhaps trying to throw a side issue into the argument is more likely.



Or maybe it was someone staggering home after a mess dinner, a time when many odd decisions have been made...


----------



## Old Sweat (20 Dec 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Or maybe it was someone staggering home after a mess dinner, a time when many odd decisions have been made...



Or trying to pitch a series for History or one of the other cable channels? Mind you, alcohol could indeed be a factor.


----------



## Old Sweat (20 Dec 2015)

Dave, I think I saw a post on Facebook, which I skimmed a few days ago. As I recall it, Vern called the sword a fake as it was identical to replicas one could buy in bazaars in the Middle East, or at least I think that was what she posted. Now I'm going have to go into hiding if I misquoted Canada's meanest redhead.


----------



## Remius (20 Dec 2015)

Does anyone know what salt water does to metal? 

Now add the amount of years it would have been in that water.

If a Roman sword was left there, it would have dissolved long ago...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Dec 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Could a Roman sword also not have made it across by a later traveller who could have been using something left behind after the Romans took their ball and left England to the barbarians?



Has anyone seen a picture of the sword? Is it a true gladius? Could someone post a link to the picture?

Never mind, found it. I don't see the similarity, other than they are both swords. The artifact doesn't look like a gladius to me.

Well, it seems I can't post pictures.  :dunno: or modify posts, or, or,........ probably because Mike is getting ready for an upgrade.


----------



## a_majoor (21 Dec 2015)

Given the length of service of some of us, it could be a sword *we* lost early in our careers. (The Centurion beasted me for _weeks_ after i lost mine.....)  ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Furniture (21 Dec 2015)

I've joked for a few years now that I want to buried fully kitted out in Roman armour and arms, without a coffin somewhere in North America just to mess with archaeologists in 1000 years... 

I call hoax to boost ratings on the show, seems the "History" channel has lost it's interest in history.

EDIT TO ADD: Just saw a picture of the sword. I'm not claiming to be a great expert on the subject of Roman swords, but to my eye it does not look like a gladius or spatha. Looks like a cheap decoration from a bazar, I think they had them in Istanbul(not Constantinople...).


----------



## ueo (23 Dec 2015)

Cairo, Beirut, Rome every where there are gullible people. As an aside, didn't the Vikings and the Romans bump heads in Britain? A possible spoil of war? OR maybe the Chinese ships on their way to Cape Breton dropped off some trade goods? OR the Aztecs (as recently postulated on the program) have copied/traded/ stolen it and dropped it? OR the Crusaders? Hmm, more questions than answers, but isn't that the study of history?


----------



## Remius (23 Dec 2015)

ueo said:
			
		

> As an aside, didn't the Vikings and the Romans bump heads in Britain? A possible spoil of war?



No.  At least not the way I think you are suggesting.  Romans certainly had contact with scandinavians but not Vikings if you use the actual definition of what a viking is.  And definitly not in Britain, which had been abandonned by Rome centuries before Vikings would make their appearance there.  But trade and contact with the Eastern empire is most definitely a possibility if not reality and fits teh right timeframe.

But as I mentioned, a Roman sword would not survive in salt water all these years, heck it would barely survive a decade or two.  So that in itself is enough to call this a hoax without even getting into the other improbabilities of this story.


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Dec 2015)

I blame these guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FveBzGMD6zw


----------



## Remius (23 Dec 2015)

Why do I get the impression some locals are just planting things for giggles.

That would be the best secret of the island of the decades.  A cabal of pranksters who sucker people.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Dec 2015)

It is rumoured that artefacts tend to appear around Oak Island just as the deep-pocketed foreigners start to doubt...


----------



## cupper (23 Dec 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It is rumoured that artefacts tend to appear around Oak Island just as the deep-pocketed foreigners start to doubt...



If you guys don't say anything, I'll cut you in on the proceeds when I start seeding the waters around the island with "mysterious ancient artifacts".

I'm waiting for the alien connection to be made, after all there was a ufo spotted just a short distance down the coast in the 60's. And we all know that as members of the CAF we were part of that cover up, from orders high up at NDHQ. It's omly a matter of time before the real story comes out.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (23 Dec 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen a picture of the sword? Is it a true gladius? Could someone post a link to the picture?
> 
> Never mind, found it. I don't see the similarity, other than they are both swords. The artifact doesn't look like a gladius to me.



If you look closely at pictures of the sword you will see that it was produced from one mould. 

Then there is the condition of the sword. This  link  shows a Roman gladius and a spatha and what they actually look like after a couple of millenium. 

As for the colour of the sword, it reminds me of certain "artifacts" the locals tried to sell me when I was visiting Tunsia years ago.


----------



## Old Sweat (23 Dec 2015)

Check for the Legion of Frontiersmen logo on the blade.  [


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Dec 2015)

Looks like basic issue to the 19th Alberta Dragoons to me.... >


----------



## Colin Parkinson (25 Dec 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Could a Roman sword also not have made it across by a later traveller who could have been using something left behind after the Romans took their ball and left England to the barbarians?



It's identical to one on ebay, I have the link somewhere. On this coast at the Maritime Museum, we have  2,000 year old Chinese vase that came up in a fishing net in the Strait of Juan De fuca. Problem is we don't know if it's off the wreck of a 2000 year old wreck or a 18th century sailing ship. I like it, because you can see inside the thumb print of the potter who was fixing a flaw in it. They have come across very old Chinese coins in coastal Washington State in archaeological digs    http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/22-annex-22-%E2%80%93-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visiting-british-colombia-washington-state-and-oregon/

http://royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/staffprofiles/files/2014/12/Asiatic-Objects.pdf


----------



## jollyjacktar (25 Dec 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> It's identical to one on ebay, I have the link somewhere. On this coast at the Maritime Museum, we have  2,000 year old Chinese vase that came up in a fishing net in the Strait of Juan De fuca. Problem is we don't know if it's off the wreck of a 2000 year old wreck or a 18th century sailing ship. I like it, because you can see inside the thumb print of the potter who was fixing a flaw in it. They have come across very old Chinese coins in coastal Washington State in archaeological digs    http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/22-annex-22-%E2%80%93-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visiting-british-colombia-washington-state-and-oregon/
> 
> http://royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/staffprofiles/files/2014/12/Asiatic-Objects.pdf



I have not looked at this sword or the program associated with it.  I was just pondering if it might be beyond the realm of possibility that someone might have brought a genuine Roman sword across to the new world pre-Columbus ie-Vikings or Irish etc and then lost it during one of their landings along the coast.  There are a number of stone sites that are of that age along the eastern seaboard.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (25 Dec 2015)

It's not out of the realm of possibility that a roman ship survived a crossing or an artifact is brought over by a later period. However in this case it's pure hogwash. problem with the Romans, they never a seafaring race, most of their sailing was in the Med or coastal trading. At 500 tonnes for the larger ships they were likely capable of the journey. Did they have have the nautical know how is a good question.


----------



## George Wallace (25 Dec 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> It's identical to one on ebay, I have the link somewhere. On this coast at the Maritime Museum, we have  2,000 year old Chinese vase that came up in a fishing net in the Strait of Juan De fuca. Problem is we don't know if it's off the wreck of a 2000 year old wreck or a 18th century sailing ship. I like it, because you can see inside the thumb print of the potter who was fixing a flaw in it. They have come across very old Chinese coins in coastal Washington State in archaeological digs    http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/22-annex-22-%E2%80%93-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visiting-british-colombia-washington-state-and-oregon/
> 
> http://royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/staffprofiles/files/2014/12/Asiatic-Objects.pdf



With debris floating ashore in BC from the tsunamis in Japan, it is a possibility that some of that was also the result of debris floating across the ocean on ship's wrecks and such over the centuries.


----------



## Maxadia (26 Dec 2015)

The fact that they may have made their way here accidentally does not automatically mean that they would have had to make their way back.


----------



## jollyjacktar (26 Dec 2015)

Strange visitors do arrive here from time to time.  Apparently Hope for Wildlife has a Vulture that was found sitting in a tree in Cape Breton.  They're scratching their heads as the bird is a desert fella.


----------



## Sigs Pig (26 Dec 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Strange visitors do arrive here from time to time.  Apparently Hope for Wildlife has a Vulture that was found sitting in a tree in Cape Breton.  They're scratching their heads as the bird is a desert fella.



The bird is named Elvira, sex of it is unknown (mystery deepens) and no reference of a sword being found on it or if it was picked up on Oak Island.... Man those easterners have ALL the fun.   :santa: - could not find a sarcasm smiley
Elvira

Stay cool
ME


----------



## Teager (24 Jan 2016)

Tonight the episode aired proving it was a replica maybe made in the 1880's or later.


----------



## jollyjacktar (25 Jan 2016)

*cough* 1980's *cough*


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Jan 2016)

There's an (archaeological) sucker born every minute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Jan 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> *cough* 1980's *cough*



That's what I was thinking... Maybe "1880's" was a typo...


----------



## larry Strong (25 Jan 2016)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> That's what I was thinking... Maybe "1880's" was a typo...



Lab lady on the show said the sword metal dated back that far.


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Jan 2016)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Lab lady on the show said the sword metal dated back that far.



The lab lady paid by the shows producers?


----------



## Old Sweat (25 Jan 2016)

Gee, how did the Romans survive there all that long without being detected or assimilated?


----------



## larry Strong (25 Jan 2016)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The lab lady paid by the shows producers?



IIRC - was not wearing my hearing aids - she was employed by the local university. 


Larry


----------



## a_majoor (25 Jan 2016)

History may well be far stranger than we imagine. While I am not qualified to examine all of Mowat's arguments, I find the overall argument persuasive enough to think that someone should be looking seriously at it:

The Farfarers: Before the Norse by Farley Mowat(Author)


----------



## Old Sweat (25 Jan 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> History may well be far stranger than we imagine. While I am not qualified to examine all of Mowat's arguments, I find the overall argument persuasive enough to think that someone should be looking seriously at it:
> 
> The Farfarers: Before the Norse by Farley Mowat(Author)



I've read it. I think it is a case of the author having fun with geography, but who knows? Definitely unproven.


----------



## Remius (25 Jan 2016)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Gee, how did the Romans survive there all that long without being detected or assimilated?



Cloaking device.


----------



## Old Sweat (25 Jan 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> Cloaking device.



Or they were busy digging on Oak Island.  :facepalm:


----------



## Remius (25 Jan 2016)

I blame Rip Hunter.  He messed with the timeline and now we are dealing with this mess.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (25 Jan 2016)

If anyone is interested, Andy White is an anthropological archaeologist based in the U.S..  He has been blogging about this "Swordgate" on almost a daily basis including comments by  Dr. Christa Brosseau who examined the sword and because of non-disclosure issues couldn't comment until the show appeared on Canadian TV (which premieres a week behind the US). 

http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/blog

Edited to add more info.


----------



## Staff Weenie (25 Jan 2016)

The analysis actually shows that the sword cannot have been made before the 1880's, so it could be quite recent. Interesting read on her methodology.


----------



## larry Strong (25 Jan 2016)

Thanks for the link. Interesting read. 

Cheers
Larry


----------



## NavyShooter (16 Dec 2018)

#Swordgate is still proceeding...

https://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/fake-hercules-swords.html

Apparently there are now 21 different copies of similar swords in their informational database.

The "100% confirmed" Roman Sword appears to be quite firmly debunked...and in an interesting twist, deliberately done to take down a 'fake history' guy who has been arguing for its reality.


----------



## larry Strong (16 Dec 2018)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> The idea of 'engineers' from centuries ago creating the water tunnels, etc, is, well, kind of far-fetched in my opinion.
> NS



https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/05/iran-qanat-irrigation-engineering-history-video/

Aqueducts went underground as well......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_(water_supply)




Larry


----------

