# Leave - Recall and Other Issues [MERGED]



## Dsaroop (29 Aug 2011)

Someone in my CoC was ordered back from leave early and I'm wondering where should I go looking for a reference that states if the CF orders you back from leave they have to pay for your return.  I've heard this numerous times before and wanted to make sure that the $150 they incurred to change their flights was not needlessly spent.  I didn't see anything in the leave manual, where should I go snooping next?


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## Adamant (29 Aug 2011)

Leave Manual - Section 2.7.02

CBI 209.54 and CFAO 209-15


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## Dsaroop (29 Aug 2011)

must have skipped it, thanks


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## NEM3sis (22 Oct 2014)

Greetings,
I am currently experiencing two admin issues due to someone in my chain who doesn't seem to be very reasonable and I could need some guidance/assistance.

First: I am currently on an exercise I was not supposed to be on, the exercise started last Saturday and until approx 2 weeks ago I was on a course and my course got shortened by 1-week ending last Friday. Well I had planned for last weekend a trip with my fiancee to Toronto to see the Broadway touring act Wicked. I did not have a leave pass since it's the weekend and I am within the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle. Well I got called and told to come back to Kingston to go on the exercise as the other corporal got a medical emergency that required her to stay home. I managed to see the play however had to check out of the hotel. Now I plan on writing a memo to try to get my money for the hotel (and maybe mileage back to Kingston?) refunded but I already know that a person up in my chain will try to play the "no leave-pass - not our problem card" so is there any reference I can use to substantiate the lack of leave pass due to being inside the triangle but still incurring expenses forced by the recall?

Second problem: while still on course I got pressed by my CoC to provide a leave plan for the rest of the FY. I did and requested the first week of December. My intent is to take my fiancee down south and marry her there on her birthday during the first week  of December (a week she already asked to be on leave through her civilian employer). Same person from my chain (I might start thinking she got something against me) refused these date due to a requirement she made up (previous persons in her position confirm it was never part of the SOP) to have 2-person manning the office at all time and the sgt will be away on course at this period and she will be on a first-aid course on base, leaving the two corporals in the office. At that point I went in the office after-hour to staff a memo and a leave pass requesting my time off for first week of December, this memo got minuted favorably by both the MCpl and Sgt. It would appear that while I am here on exercise, she is stalling the memo and won't submit it up the chain as there are some format she doesn't like (she counted too many "and" word to her liking within the memo and she believe that me stating that those dates are the best for my fiancee within her work schedule is not a valid reason as the military does not care about members family and it is irrelevant). Furthermore, to that other dates for her First aid course on base has been identified for her to attend.
So how can I get her to push the memo to its intended adressee.

Regards


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## Shamrock (22 Oct 2014)

Leave policy manual has all your relevant refs.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2014)

Why would the CF reimburse you.   Seriously.  

Your leave pass hasnt been approved yet.  It sounds like it hasnt been denied either.


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## NEM3sis (22 Oct 2014)

> 209.54 - Reimbursement of Expenses when Recalled from or on Cancellation of Leave
> 
> 209.54(1) (Application) Subject to paragraph (2), an officer or non-commissioned member who is recalled to duty from leave in accordance with QR&O 16.01 (Withholding of and Recall From Leave) or whose approved leave has been cancelled for service reasons may be reimbursed for:
> a.transportation and travelling expenses in accordance with CBI 209.83 - Transportation and Travelling Expenses – Move of Officers and Non-commissioned Members on Posting or of Dependants for the member and, where applicable, their dependants to the place of duty from the place from which the member was recalled and for the return journey if the member resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which the member was recalled; and
> ...



I understand that, however I did not have a leave pass and that is what she is gonna try to get me with 
I already went thru the leave manual, it's just not that simple black or white.

For problem #2 Leave policy manual is not so much the problem as she is withholding a memo addressed to higher. I want that memo to go up now so that it can get resolved and I can book my vacation. Failing that, as soon as I touch ground back in Kingston I will request a meeting with the addresse and ask her if she has seen my memo addressed to her.
is there any document that clearly state a memo need to be swiftly expedited to its addresse?


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## NEM3sis (22 Oct 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Why would the CF reimburse you.   Seriously.
> 
> Your leave pass hasnt been approved yet.  It sounds like it hasnt been denied either.



the reimbursement part is in the past, re-read my post. I wanna be reimbursed my hotel for being recalled from my weekend to go on exercise.

problem #2 I haven't booked my vacation yet because I do not have a leave pass, but by the look of thing someone does not want me on leave at this time due to her first aid course.

I don't mean to insult your intelligence but there is two problems there and they are clearly separated, please don't intermix them even though they both involved the same person.


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## Shamrock (22 Oct 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Why would the CF reimburse you.   Seriously.
> 
> Your leave pass hasnt been approved yet.  It sounds like it hasnt been denied either.



Because they recalled him off leave and as a result, he incurred cost.  The manual also states a leave pass is not required singly for weekends.


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## NEM3sis (22 Oct 2014)

Thank you Shamrock, I missed the no-need for leave pass for weekend, I'll have to look again and there is one problem fixed. Much appreciated


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## DAA (22 Oct 2014)

NEM3sis said:
			
		

> Thank you Shamrock, I missed the no-need for leave pass for weekend, I'll have to look again and there is one problem fixed. Much appreciated



Not so quick.  First off, you were NOT on leave.  Regardless of whether it was a weekend or not.  There is a purpose for requesting a Leave Pass be approved with strictly "Weekend" leave and your case is exactly why.  Every CF member is subject to recall at any time.  A "huge" consideration" prior to recalling someone to duty, is their current "status" at the time of the recall.  So if you did not have a leave pass in hand, to cover your ***, whether it was a weekend or not, you are SOL far as any kind of reimbursement is concerned.

With respect to your other issues, if you don't get satisfaction from your direct CoC, go straight to your CO.

PS - you might want to avail yourself and read QR&O 16.01 para 2.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page

Simply put......

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
 1.because of imperative military requirements; *and
 2.when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.*


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## NEM3sis (22 Oct 2014)

Thanks DAA, it helps.
I am not looking for a free ride here, I am looking for a fair ride. I wasn't supposed to be part of the ex, I was within the triangle, in fact I wasn't even supposed to be at the unit till the week after.
On that note, I would hate to be my OR as it seems I will cover my ass from now on and they will see a lot of weekend leave passes from me in the future.


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## PMedMoe (22 Oct 2014)

NEM3sis said:
			
		

> On that note, I would hate to be my OR as it seems I will cover my ass from now on and they will see a lot of weekend leave passes from me in the future.



Do it anyway.  I have recently begun to submit leave passes for every weekend I have plans (whether I'm staying in the area or not) due to a recent fastball.  I have also entered these leave dates on the unit calendar.  Better safe than sorry.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Oct 2014)

NEM3sis said:
			
		

> Thanks DAA, it helps.
> I am not looking for a free ride here, I am looking for a fair ride. I wasn't supposed to be part of the ex, I was within the triangle, in fact I wasn't even supposed to be at the unit till the week after.



Shit happened, things changed and you didn't have a leave pass in.

I go thru this with my unit;  if I don't have a weekend leave pass in, I am fair game for duty as it comes up.  If I am not on what my units 'duty' is, and I want to leave our geo area, or if I want to 'ensure I won't be recalled' (family in town, etc)...I put in the leave pass for the weekend.

Your job is to work when the CAF needs you to, regardless of "if you weren't scheduled for the exercise".

 :


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## ModlrMike (23 Oct 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> crap happened, things changed and you didn't have a leave pass in.
> 
> I go thru this with my unit;  if I don't have a weekend leave pass in, I am fair game for duty as it comes up.  If I am not on what my units 'duty' is, and I want to leave our geo area, or if I want to 'ensure I won't be recalled' (family in town, etc)...I put in the leave pass for the weekend.
> 
> ...



True, but this approach only leads to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled. As much as he was on normal time off vs leave, the fact that he was recalled and incurred a cost associated with that recall should entitle him to some form of compensation.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2014)

I have many weekends off, none of them are reflected in my leave record/jacket.  Because I am on not technically "on leave" if I don't have a leave pass submitted.  Not sure about his unit, but if I get called in on a weekend, I may be given a NWD (we are considered shiftworkers).

Sounds to me like a 'lesson learned'.  Important weekends should be covered with a wknd leave pass.  

As for the OP stating he is going to submit a leave pass for EVERY weekend, I hope he understands that doesn't necessarily equal they will all be approved.  I know how that would look to my CofC.  They would all be doing a  :facepalm:.  This isn't a union job or a bank we work for;  there is no entitlement to 'every weekend off'.  

Don't get me wrong, I understand where he is coming from;  I've been recalled from (actual) leave before, and had what I thought was a weekend off turn into a working weekend/weekend day last minute.  Now I submit leave passes for weekends that I have hard plans for as far in advance as possible, giving the unit advance notice.  I had plans for a weekend in July and submitted the wknd leave pass in April.  It was signed that day and I was able to continue with my plans, knowing I was at least covered financially should that leave be canned at a later date.  That is as good as it gets.


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## Ostrozac (23 Oct 2014)

The references seem pretty clear to me. When you take off for a weekend, and have no leave pass, you are still on weekend leave.

_Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. *No CF100 is required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekend leave * and/or designated holiday, except:
when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis._

Your CO is certainly able to recall you from this weekend leave under QR&O 16.01, but CBI 209.54 certainly seems to apply for reimbursement of expenses, including broken travel plans, and duty travel status from your leave location to your place of duty. And note that this decision can only be made by a Commanding Officer, and cannot be delegated. Your supervisor cannot call you in from weekend leave without the CO's blessing --QR&O seems pretty clear on that. So Company Level bugouts on a Sunday morning need to be approved by 9er.

Personally, I wouldn't require my soldiers to have a signed leave pass for weekend travel (as "the soldier requests one" isn't one of the reasons given in the Leave Policy Manual), and I'd certainly recommend to approve travel expenses if my CO recalled a troop back to Ottawa from Toronto or Montreal on a Saturday night.


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## NEM3sis (23 Oct 2014)

Eye in the sky, nowhere did I say I was gonna submit a leave pass every weekend
I'm waiting for you to push the line: "if the Army wanted you to have a wife/family, they would have issued one to you" anytime now

 : no offense


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## DAA (23 Oct 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> True, but this approach only leads to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled. As much as he was on normal time off vs leave, the fact that he was recalled and incurred a cost associated with that recall should entitle him to some form of compensation.



Based on the circumstances, I don't believe their is an entitlement for anything.  You could look at CFTDTI Chap 5, Art 5.26 bit this could be a real "stretch" of the imagination.

My utmost favourite, is CFTDTI Chap 5, Art 5.24 (Recall to Workplace).  Due to it's obscurity, not many people take advantage of this when the situation does arise.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/caf-community-benefits/canadian-forces-temporary-duty-travel-instruction.pdf

Other than that, Weekend Leave passes are sort of like a "Do Not Disturb" sign.  If you are going to incur out of pocket expenses for a weekend excursion or sorts, then by all means, put one in and if you are challenged on it, just tell them why!  But don't be submitting a weekend leave pass for all 52 weekends out of the year.  Your CoC will definitely not like you for this.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2014)

NEM3sis said:
			
		

> Eye in the sky, nowhere did I say I was gonna submit a leave pass every weekend





			
				NEM3sis said:
			
		

> On that note, I would hate to be my OR as it seems I will cover my ass from now on and they will see a lot of weekend leave passes from me in the future.



Those are you own words there bud.



> I'm waiting for you to push the line: "if the Army wanted you to have a wife/family, they would have issued one to you" anytime now



You are a LS, why would I say something like that (as stupid as it is...) about the Army? 



> : no offense



I'm not offended.  But your posts in this thread give an impression of someone who thinks that they determine their own work schedule (your comments about your course ending early and the exercise you weren't supposed to be on) and if they don't get the leave they request, they are being 'wronged' (based on the leave pass you've submitted for Dec and have yet to get an Approved or Denied status on).  Your CofC has the authority to minute the leave pass memo and if the AA (CO or delegated Officer) denies based on those comments, it doesn't necessarily mean someone is out to get you.  I see this type of thinking in my unit with some of the less experienced folks too.  

Request an update on your leave pass for Dec thru your immediate superior "as you are trying to finalize travel plans".  

You are a LS, therefore a NCO.  Have you tried looking thru the CF reg's and investing some time into your own PD and GSK?  I know many of the regs but only because I took the time to read them, and know them, so I could advise my superiors and look after my subordinates.  That started at the Cpl rank where I learned some very important lessons on why GSK/Admin/reg's knowledge is important from a Inf MWO who taught Mil Law on my CLC in '93.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

If your CofC determines there is a "military requirement" for you to be at your place of duty, for an exercise, for whatever reason, it doesn't always mean someone doesn't like you.


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## NEM3sis (23 Oct 2014)

Purple trade, Corporal now - didn't update my profile sorry

*a lot of * does not equal *all* so don't twist the dictionnary to your own end.

I don't determine my own work schedule, I am stating my situation with as much detail as possible, if I was determining my own work schedule as you imply, each and every phone call they did to me while I was in Toronto, I would have ignored with a call back later saying: Hey I was in theater and left my phone at the hotel, bunch of missed phone calls, What's up?" but I am of good faith and answered all phone calls and missed half the show anyway cuz I was busy texting back and forth with my SSM.

Don't worry, I've been looking at all the regs all week, only came in here yesterday for some further guidance. 
you haven't done much other than try to discredit me, other people at least put some valuable input.


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## Shamrock (23 Oct 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ...But your posts in this thread give an impression of someone who thinks that they determine their own work schedule...



Good point.  Work hours are published in orders.  What is the duty status of a member during the off-duty hours?  On leave subject to recall or on duty outside a duty area?


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2014)

NEM3sis said:
			
		

> you haven't done much other than try to discredit me, other people at least put some valuable input.



I've given you some perspective, that you don't like as it doesn't support you 100%.  That's not discrediting you (IMO).

I pointed out in my first post that your Dec leave has neither been approved or denied.  And later suggested you request an update thru your immediate superiors.

But, as you seem to need a HFR now, I'll go on RLS.  Cheers.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Oct 2014)

I am probably going to make enemies here, but here in a nutshell is the concept of leave/duty: In the CF, if you are not "on leave", that is do not have an approved leave chit, then you are on duty, even though outside working hours and not otherwise required for duty. The crown is happy to let you go about your affairs as you see fit - subject to recall at any time required, however.

Thus, if you have special plans (I underline special) for a given week-end, or wish to go out of area such as to make your recall difficult or costly, it is up to you to request week-end leave in writing to avoid the unpleasantness of recall. Should your CoC refuse you such week-end pass, heed the warning sign. It is probably because your CoC is aware of circumstances that may lead to recall on that particular week-end.

Those week end pass can also be your butt saver. I always used to put one in when I planned to go to Vancouver for the week-end. Once, BC Ferries decided to can the Sunday night sailings due to a severe storm in Georgia Strait and I had to come back to the ship, late, on the Monday morning. I did not get into trouble, however because Command was aware that I was in Vancouver and therefore wasn't making this up to cover for another reason to be late.


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## George Wallace (23 Oct 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> True, but this approach only leads to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled. As much as he was on normal time off vs leave, the fact that he was recalled and incurred a cost associated with that recall should entitle him to some form of compensation.



NO.  This does not lead to people not being able to plan for anything for fear of being recalled.  It encourages the practice to submit a Leave Pass for such cases where you have something planned, even if it is within the 'Geographic Area'.  The fact that he did not follow this precaution to let his CoC know that he had plans, is not the fault of his CoC.  What is that saying: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute and emergency on my part."  If anyone has any plans such as those in this example, "Cover Your Ass" and submit a Leave Pass.  In this case, it would appear that the member's CoC had no knowledge of their plans to go to Toronto and stay overnight.


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## NEM3sis (23 Oct 2014)

actually George, in this case the CoC was aware I would be in Toronto.

My point highlighting the course being shorten by one week is only to show the fact that 4 month ago, when we bought the tickets and booked the hotel and I was course-loaded, to whom should I have done the leave pass? to my CoC at my unit or to the school since I belonged to the school, not my unit until the end of course. 

I think I may be good for the hotel cost this time thanks to Ostrozac input and also because I got the support of some higher up within the Unit, but this will go in the Lesson Learned book for next time.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2014)

NEM3sis said:
			
		

> My point highlighting the course being shorten by one week is only to show the fact that 4 month ago, when we bought the tickets and booked the hotel and I was course-loaded, to whom should I have done the leave pass? to my CoC at my unit or to the school since I belonged to the school, not my unit until the end of course.



Sounds like an easy question to ask your CofC.     Were you going to be on TD or an AP?  

If they didn't know, they'd put the question up the chain, and over to the TE if required.

I've been "on course" before (same geo location as my unit), but not officially on TD or an AP.  Same question was asked by my unit to the TE; they came to an agreement that the TE CofC would approve the leave.  Voila, submitted my leave pass and had it back signed from the TE CofC that day.

In your case then, when your course ended early (assuming you were on TD or AP for the course and the TE CofC approved leave previously), you would officially be released back to your unit, where you would say "okay, I'm back now...I have this leave pass signed for weekend X.  Do I need to submit a new one?".

If your *new* request for leave was denied, because of circumstances outside your control I would then think that you would be reimbursed for any cancellation fees that might arise from your previously-approved-now-denied leave pass.


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## NEM3sis (23 Oct 2014)

this is informative and will go in the lesson learned for the future, Thanks Eye in the Sky.
I was not on TD, the only thing separating the school from my Unit is a driving range.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2014)

Cheers.  Hope you get your leave approved for your wedding.  If there is someone trying to side-rail it, being that it is your wedding you are requesting leave for, I'm hopeful your CO signs off.


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## COOK9856 (18 Sep 2015)

It is 2 weeks before i drive down to Disney World with my family. CoC is trying to recall an approved leave pass. My parents are scheduled to met me and my family down there and they have already purchased tickets. I'm trying to find anything that states that they are entitled to a reimbursement also. all i have right now is  CBI 209.54, QRO 16.01. can't find anything about extended family having to cancel vacation due to my leave being recalled. any suggestions?


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## George Wallace (18 Sep 2015)

This has been discussed before.  WAIT OUT and I will merge the topics.


Merged

Hope this helps.


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## COOK9856 (18 Sep 2015)

I don't see how this thread helps me. I'm looking for reimbursement for extended family members who have booked vacation for the purposes of seeing me and my family.

for example.....if I were getting married. i had a leave pass for the ceremony. several family member are flying in to whiteness the ceremony. leave gets recalled. can i get their plane tickets reimbursed?


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## dapaterson (18 Sep 2015)

The Leave Manual (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page) doesn't provide much more, but does provide definitions of what constitute "imperative military requirements".


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## Strike (18 Sep 2015)

Looking at this: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-209-transportation-expenses.page#sec-209-54  I notice this statement:



> 209.54 - Reimbursement of Expenses when Recalled from or on Cancellation of Leave
> 
> 209.54(1) (Application) SSubject to paragraph (2), an officer or non-commissioned member who is recalled to duty from leave in accordance with QR&O 16.01 (Withholding of and Recall From Leave) or whose approved leave has been cancelled for service reasons may be reimbursed for:
> a.transportation and travelling expenses in accordance with CBI 209.83 - Transportation and Travelling Expenses – Move of Officers and Non-commissioned Members on Posting or of Dependants for the member and, where applicable, their dependants to the place of duty from the place from which the member was recalled and for the return journey if the member resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which the member was recalled; and
> ...



That MAY be something you could look at if you made the booking for hotels, park tickets, whatever and they had to be cancelled as a whole group.  But I don't think extended family flight costs would be covered.


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## George Wallace (18 Sep 2015)

Leave Policies will apply to you and your immediate family (ie. spouse and dependents) in the majority of cases.  Your "extended" family will have to deal with any changes to their plans on their own.  The government has no responsibility for them in the cases you have put forward.

If you check the links on the previous post, you will find:



> 209.54 - Reimbursement of Expenses when Recalled from or on Cancellation of Leave
> 
> 209.54(1) (Application) SSubject to paragraph (2), an officer or non-commissioned member who is recalled to duty from leave in accordance with QR&O 16.01 (Withholding of and Recall From Leave) or whose approved leave has been cancelled for service reasons may be reimbursed for:
> 
> ...


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## McG (18 Sep 2015)

The extended family could always bring thier concerns to Director Claims and Civil Litigation.


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## exgunnertdo (18 Sep 2015)

I'll put this in this thread, for general purposes - TRIP CANCELLATION INSURANCE!!!!

I am bit of a cruise addict, and spend a bit of time on a message board dedicated to cruising. Almost daily, there are threads about "I have to cancel my cruise for xyz reason. Will Royal Caribbean/Carnival/Disney give me my money back?"

For us military folks, if we have a signed leave pass, signed and stamped *before the travel was booked*, you can get your money back from the government (as mentioned, for military member and immediate family). We've done it, when my husband was recalled from leave (only had to cover a hotel in that case). Another time, we almost had to get the military to reimburse us for a cruise when my husband was deployed on very short notice, but Royal Caribbean was very generous and allowed us to cancel for a full refund.

Most Trip Cancellation Insurance policies will cover if a member of your party has to cancel for a valid reason (work is usually a valid reason). So while the military will reimburse if the recall you/cancel your leave, if your extended family has trip cancellation insurance, that could apply.

Also, a good idea for the military member and family. If someone gets too sick to travel, you'll all be out the money. If a storm means cancelled flights (it is still hurricane season) and they miss 2 days of your prepaid hotel/park passes, etc. The military will not help with those scenarios. Cancelled leave is not the only reason to need to get your money back. 

Just warning for people reading the thread. I recognize the poster with the question may be out of luck on this one. If the extended family doesn't already have insurance, it's too late. The military is not responsible for everyone's travel plans. They have to take their own precautions. 

But nevertheless - have the extended family members check their credit card policy. Some credit cards have cancellation insurance built in as a benefit. Also, if they booked through a travel agent, some travel agents slip it in without you realizing it. They get a commission on insurance so it's to their benefit to sell it to you.


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## ratatomik (25 Nov 2015)

Hi,
   i've been looking around the DAOD and QR&O but couldnt find anything on that.
  Is there a maximum time you have to report in when let's say you r on days off and you get a phone call but arent there to pick up? Im looking for a reference of something.

 Thanks for your help!


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Nov 2015)

Unit Orders?  And, by 'days off' do you mean shiftwork, normal weekends, NWDs?  On leave?


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## ratatomik (25 Nov 2015)

Shiftwork, weekends and leave.


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Nov 2015)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page

Section 1 - General

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
a.because of imperative military requirements; and
b.when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.

As for how much time, I can't say that I've ever seen that in a reg or order before.  What if I am on leave in the UK and get recalled?  How much time to I have?

First question, under who's direction (not the same as authority) was your leave 'cancelled';  the QR & O is clear IMO.


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## ratatomik (25 Nov 2015)

Yeah i stumbled about that ref too. However, its pretty generic and doesnt give precise timeline. I guess its a case by case kind of thing. Thanks tho.


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## captloadie (25 Nov 2015)

Although it is situation dependant, we are not on a leash (unless you are given a pager/duty phone/Blackberry). 

If your normal shift has ended, you haven't been given any other instructions, and then they can't get ahold of you, there isn't much the CoC can do but wait for you to return the message (well, they could send out the MPs, but that usually means something is really wrong). And you shouldn't be in crap for it.

Now, if you answered the call and said you'd be right in, and didn't show for three hours, that's a different story.


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## mariomike (25 Nov 2015)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Although it is situation dependant, we are not on a leash (unless you are given a pager/duty phone/Blackberry).



There was an interesting discussion about that,
http://army.ca/forums/threads/117338.0
"a hypothetical discussion took place with regards to an expectation that we are to be available for contact off-duty or on leave."




			
				ratatomik said:
			
		

> Shiftwork, weekends and leave.



This may help,

leave recall, and other leave issues  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/116686.0;nowap


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## JesseWZ (25 Nov 2015)

captloadie said:
			
		

> If your normal shift has ended, you haven't been given any other instructions, and then they can't get ahold of you, there isn't much the CoC can do but wait for you to return the message (well, they could send out the MPs, but that usually means something is really wrong). And you shouldn't be in crap for it.



We don't normally go find someone unless there is:

a) reason to believe they are in trouble or will harm themselves; or 

b) a CO's warrant for arrest for the person due to them being AWOL. 

We aren't typically a taxi service (though there is the odd time we can be - family member deceased just to name the first item on my mind).


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## Lumber (26 Nov 2015)

ratatomik said:
			
		

> Yeah i stumbled about that ref too. However, its pretty generic and doesnt give precise timeline. I guess its a case by case kind of thing. Thanks tho.



In the fleet we have a maximum time of 4 hrs from the time a recall is initiated to the time we need to be at the ship. That doesn't mean take your time; you come straight to the ship. Realistically, there is no reason we shouldn't be able to get a hold of you within 4 hours, unless your watching a screen of the extended edition of Lord of the Rings: Return of the King.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2015)

4 hours based on...

The CAF Leave Manual states I am not required to put in a leave pass for normal weekends I am not on duty, and I am allowed to travel, as long as I am back at my expected time Monday morning, right? So let's say on a weekend, I fly to Toronto.  I am not on leave, not on duty, etc.  IAW published CAF policy, I am authorized to travel on the weekend as long as I am back at my expected time.

Now what?  Where is the reg stating the 4 hours deal?  Word of mouth?


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## Haggis (26 Nov 2015)

I ride a motorcycle - a lot.  On weekends I would routinely stray far more than 4 hours from NDHQ (sometimes the farther the better  ;D ).  Having researched this, there is no hard and fast rule articulating a specific time window in which you were expected to report back upon recall.  Unless you were notified in advance that you were subject to potential recall, within a set time period, you could only be expected back "within a reasonable time".  So, if I rode to Toronto, a "reasonable time" would be four to six hours.

No unit should expect you, on a weekend, to remain within four hours without being subject to advance notification of potential recall.  What if you'd had a few beers at a BBQ?  8 hours from bottle to throttle then applies.


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## George Wallace (26 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 4 hours based on...
> 
> The CAF Leave Manual states I am not required to put in a leave pass for normal weekends I am not on duty, and I am allowed to travel, as long as I am back at my expected time Monday morning, right? So let's say on a weekend, I fly to Toronto.  I am not on leave, not on duty, etc.  IAW published CAF policy, I am authorized to travel on the weekend as long as I am back at my expected time.
> 
> Now what?  Where is the reg stating the 4 hours deal?  Word of mouth?



If you have traveled outside of your "Unit Boundaries", then you would need a Leave Pass.  I would say that your being in a "Western Province" and flying to "Toronto" (well outside of your "Units Boundaries") on a weekend, without a Leave Pass, would not be within published CAF policies.


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## AmmoTech90 (26 Nov 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you have traveled outside of your "Unit Boundaries", then you would need a Leave Pass.  I would say that your being in a "Western Province" and flying to "Toronto" (well outside of your "Units Boundaries") on a weekend, without a Leave Pass, would not be within published CAF policies.



Absolutely wrong.

From the Leave Manual



> 2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays
> 
> Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
> •when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
> ...


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## Lumber (26 Nov 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you have traveled outside of your "Unit Boundaries", then you would need a Leave Pass.  I would say that your being in a "Western Province" and flying to "Toronto" (well outside of your "Units Boundaries") on a weekend, without a Leave Pass, would not be within published CAF policies.



I was also under this impression for the past 9 years. Even at RMC we were told that if we were driving home for the weekend, we were to have a leave pass in case something happened to us while we were out of area. We were told (and I've been told many times since), that if I'm injured while travelling out of area without a leave pass, I may not be covered. But having read CF Leave Policy Manual section 2.1.04 - "Weekends and Holidays", I'm wondering were this widespread misconception came from. Is there another reference somewhere? There is nothing in the MARLANTORDs..


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2015)

A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything outside 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).  Heck, I remember the days of having sign-out books in the shacks and having to sign out to go to the CANEX or into Freddy or something.  It is a 'legacy' thing IMO from the time before the Leave Manual and often still used despite the Leave Manual.  

My current unit, our Sqn Orders say we are 'encouraged' to let our Crew Commanders know where we will be on normal weekend leave/days off, however we are not required to.  In the event I am on "standby", we have specific rules/report times for that and (1) I know about it before hand (2) I am not able to submit leave during that time and (3) I have distance limitations I am subject to for travel while on standby.


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## George Wallace (26 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything about 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).



Every Base/Bde/Unit had their own "radius" set up to ensure a reasonable response to a "Recall".  Petawawa's for example extended to Ottawa, but not quite to Kingston/Trenton.


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## Lumber (26 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything about 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).



There is a MARLANTORD complete with maps that outlines the geographic areas that your are allowed to live in surrounding Halifax, Trenton, and St. John's, NFLD. You need permission to live outside of this area, but it doesn't say anything about leaving this area on weekends/evenings.

Also this just be tradition and not legal, but in the navy, everytime you leave work you are considered to be going "on leave". Work doesn't "start" at 0750, "leave expires" at 0750.


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## dapaterson (26 Nov 2015)

Lumber said:
			
		

> I was also under this impression for the past 9 years. Even at RMC we were told that if we were driving home for the weekend, we were to have a leave pass in case something happened to us while we were out of area. We were told (and I've been told many times since), that if I'm injured while travelling out of area without a leave pass, I may not be covered. But having read CF Leave Policy Manual section 2.1.04 - "Weekends and Holidays", I'm wondering were this widespread misconception came from. Is there another reference somewhere? There is nothing in the MARLANTORDs..



There are many things done a certain way because they've always been done that way, and not becuase there's any order or direction to do them that way.

I look forward to dinosaur heads exploding when leave becomes an electronic transaction with no paper, just an automated email to a supervisor saying "Bloggins has requested leave.  Click here to approve, here to reject."


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## dapaterson (26 Nov 2015)

Lumber said:
			
		

> There is a MARLANTORD complete with maps that outlines the geographic areas that your are allowed to live in surrounding Halifax, Trenton, and St. John's, NFLD. You need permission to live outside of this area, but it doesn't say anything about leaving this area on weekends/evenings.



That's tied to benefits - if you're on the wrong side of the line, there's no entitlement to PLD, for example.  All those area maps are available from DGCB, as well.


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## George Wallace (26 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> A lot of that changed when the Leave Policy Manual came out.  But I remember those days of unit boundaries.  I think we had to submit for anything outside 60km or thereabouts (Gagetown/Armd School direction back years ago).  Heck, I remember the days of having sign-out books in the shacks and having to sign out to go to the CANEX or into Freddy or something.  It is a 'legacy' thing IMO from the time before the Leave Manual and often still used despite the Leave Manual.
> 
> My current unit, our Sqn Orders say we are 'encouraged' to let our Crew Commanders know where we will be on normal weekend leave/days off, however we are not required to.  In the event I am on "standby", we have specific rules/report times for that and (1) I know about it before hand (2) I am not able to submit leave during that time and (3) I have distance limitations I am subject to for travel while on standby.



Actually, I would say it is a "Pers Management System" that supervisors have used for years to ensure they know where all their people are at all times, not just when they are on "standby".  Just because someone has not put it into 'black and white' in a 'printed form' does not make it an invalid procedure to keep track of your pers.  If the "Leave Manual" does not state that this is to be done, does not make it wrong.  It is after all just a 'Guide' to ensure that Leave Records and their associated fiscal policies are followed.  When it comes to a Unit's Alert Recall Policies, the Leave Manual is not as relevant as the Barrackroom Lawyers may believe.  A CAF member does not have the luxury of saying they will not respond to a Recall to Duty, especially in an Emergency.


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## Ostrozac (26 Nov 2015)

And to further complicate things, the geographical boundaries of some bases/garrisons (the boundaries within which members are directed to live) prevent any kind of quick return to duty for some people at some times of day.

Kingston allows personnel to live on Wolfe Island -- but the ferry isn't 24/7. If you live on Wolfe Island (which is within the geographical boundaries of the base), then you aren't coming in at 300 AM. Period. Unless you own a boat, or a hovercraft in the winter.


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## Bzzliteyr (26 Nov 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are many things done a certain way because they've always been done that way, and not becuase there's any order or direction to do them that way.
> 
> I look forward to dinosaur heads exploding when leave becomes an electronic transaction with no paper, just an automated email to a supervisor saying "Bloggins has requested leave.  Click here to approve, here to reject."



I find it quite amusing that some people in my office still have a CF 100 pdf that they fill out when all you need to do is go in to Monitor Mass, select the dates you plan on making a leave pass for, then create the leave pass. You can fill in/modify all the details necessay (type of days, etc) and even add notes and comments for that "remarks/authority" section (I usually put in my licence plate if I will be driving somewhere)!  

It is then entered electronically and can be accessed by those that use Monitor Mass in the unit. I still have to print it out so it can get signed by both recommended and approval pers then sent to the OR for processing but I imagine in the future, an email will do.

Now, to find someone that knows all about the forms you can fill out automatically with Monitor Mass (PEN form anyone?)....


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2015)

Of course people have to respond to a recall if they actually receive it.  But I am not 'required' to provide my whereabouts to my CofC on weekends I am not on duty.  

Going 'on leave'; by putting in a leave pass, a mbr is also indicating the phone number and address they should be able to be contacted at while on leave for the event they are recalled.  However the following applies:

From the QR & Os:

16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
a.because of imperative military requirements; and
b.when the member's commanding officer personally directs the member's return to duty.

From the Leave Policy Manual

1.1.11 Imperative military requirements

Imperative military requirements mean a situation or circumstance that precludes a CF member from taking leave or permits a CO to recall a member from leave.

IMR include, but are not limited to:
•participating in an operational deployment or major military exercise;
•participating in an unforecasted tasking;
•attending a career course;
•attending a court martial; or
•posting or attached posting (including any action related to it, such as HHT, out-clearances, travelling time, Special Leave (Relocation))

IMR do not include:
•recalling a member from sick leave to take annual leave;
•recalling a member from LWOP to take annual leave;
•recalling a member from leave for an annual medical/dental exam; or
•recalling a member for performing routine personal administrative issues such as, but not limited to, PER interviews, testing or parades.


However, if I am not required to submit a leave pass to go to Toronto for the weekend (which I am not)  and am staying at the Hotel of Happiness while there (and no requirement to tell my CofC I am at the HoH) and "don't have my cell phone ringer turned on" (why would I, I am not on duty or standby until Monday morning at 0730 IAW established normal duty hours published by the CO), then what exactly is the expectation of the mbr?  

It is 'to return to work NLT 0730 Monday morning' or to call in as soon as they become aware of a recall.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I find it quite amusing that some people in my office still have a CF 100 pdf that they fill out when all you need to do is go in to Monitor Mass, select the dates you plan on making a leave pass for, then create the leave pass. You can fill in/modify all the details necessay (type of days, etc) and even add notes and comments for that "remarks/authority" section (I usually put in my licence plate if I will be driving somewhere)!



My unit MM leave passes are required.  No "legacy" CF-100s are accepted.  AFAIK, this is because MM will track changes in the parade state?


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## Bzzliteyr (26 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My unit MM leave passes are required.  No "legacy" CF-100s are accepted.  AFAIK, this is because MM will track changes in the parade state?



I believe yes, it puts it in the parade state. Again, how many units use MM to the max of its potential?


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I believe yes, it puts it in the parade state. Again, how many units use MM to the max of its potential?



I have no idea, but we should start.  As DAP mentioned, I recall being made aware that leave passes on paper will become a thing of the past and that might create some problems while saving paper printed;  we have a leave pass process that involves more than just 'recommended/approved' signatures.


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## dapaterson (26 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I have no idea, but we should start.  As DAP mentioned, I recall being made aware that leave passes on paper will become a thing of the past and that might create some problems while saving paper printed;  we have a leave pass process that involves more than just 'recommended/approved' signatures.



But how much of that process is value added?  If Bloggins submits an electronic request that gets reviewed and approved, and that information gets pushed out electronically to status reports, we've eliminated clerk work, saved time and saved paper.

Right now we are wedded to paper because it's viewed as the only "real" or official document.  If we did better Information Management (supported by enabling Information Technology) we could simplify processes and eliminate lots of paper, and lots of low to no value added work.


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## Lumber (26 Nov 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I believe yes, it puts it in the parade state. Again, how many units use MM to the max of its potential?



My last unit, we used it a lot. We tracked individuals daily movements (dental appointments, referesher trg, leave, etc.). 

At my new unit, only me and the Chief Clerk have accounts, and he doesn't even know how to use it (I had to log-in using his account to make my account).


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2015)

For us, it is a necessary part that wouldn't apply to anyone not in a flying slot.


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## Haggis (26 Nov 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Right now we are wedded to paper because it's viewed as the only "real" or official document.  If we did better Information Management (supported by enabling Information Technology) we could simplify processes and eliminate lots of paper, and lots of low to no value added work.



The only recent (i.e. 3 years ago) use that I have had for a paper leave pass in North America was when crossing the border to the U.S.  When asked by USCBP what I did for a living I replied that I was Canadian military.  The officer asked if I was "on orders" or on leave.  I replied I was on leave and he asked to see my leave pass.  I produced it, he reviewed it and, in seconds, we parted ways.


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## Bzzliteyr (26 Nov 2015)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The only recent (i.e. 3 years ago) use that I have had for a paper leave pass in North America was when crossing the border to the U.S.  When asked by USCBP what I did for a living I replied that I was Canadian military.  The officer asked if I was "on orders" or on leave.  I replied I was on leave and he asked to see my leave pass.  I produced it, he reviewed it and, in seconds, we parted ways.



Interesting, my interactions with border folks is handing over my mil ID when I hand ove rmy passport to assist with things. this usually results in a war story or two and I'm on my way.


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## Pusser (26 Nov 2015)

On the naval side of things, that four hours was always from the point where you were contacted, not the start of a general recall.  If they never got a hold of you, you obviously never made it in and as far as I know, there were never any consequences for that.  I think the four hours may also have been based on the amount of time it took to flash up the boilers. It didn't matter how fast everybody got on board, it took a minimum of four hours before the ship was going to move regardless.  This no longer applies in our modern fleet of  gas turbines and diesel engines.

I am curious as to what has actually happened here.  The OP seems to have stopped responding.  A very good point has been made that it is only the CO who has authority to recall somebody from leave (and any approved absence from a place of duty is "leave" - no leave pass required) and he/she must order it personally.  If that is not the case, the amount of time it took the member to respond to an unlawful command is irrelevant.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Nov 2015)

Was that for any/all ships?  Ready duty ship?  I always assumed there was something similar for the RDS that we use for our Ready postures.


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## Haggis (26 Nov 2015)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Interesting, my interactions with border folks is handing over my mil ID when I hand ove rmy passport to assist with things. this usually results in a war story or two and I'm on my way.



There was a long line up that day.  My last trip across (August - as a civvy law enforcement type now) resulted in exactly that - in both directions.


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## Pusser (27 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Was that for any/all ships?  Ready duty ship?  I always assumed there was something similar for the RDS that we use for our Ready postures.



Ready Duty Ship would normally have tighter restrictions - e.g. if you aren't going to be near a phone, you would need to contact the ship every four hours to see if there was a recall; only 10% of ship's company could be on out-of-area leave (i.e. not available for recall); certain folks (e.g. CO, XO, COXN, CERA) could not be on out-of-area leave; etc.


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## mariomike (27 Nov 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Ready Duty Ship would normally have tighter restrictions - e.g. if you aren't going to be near a phone, you would need to contact the ship every four hours to see if there was a recall;



I read some are expected ( required? ) to be near a phone, "The argument of my superior was that things are different because we are in the emergency services (i.e. base fire hall), and that the CF needs a reliable way of getting ahold of us when off-duty or on leave."


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Nov 2015)

Argument doesn't not make policy or regs though.  The QR & O, DAOD and Leave Policy Manual trump 'arguments'.


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## mariomike (27 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The QR & O, DAOD and Leave Policy Manual trump 'arguments'.



Not to disagree with you or  the QR & O, DAOD and Leave Policy Manual, but, "Ordered to "get a phone"." made for an interesting four-page discussion / "argument".


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## George Wallace (27 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Argument doesn't not make policy or regs though.  The QR & O, DAOD and Leave Policy Manual trump 'arguments'.



Obviously not a "Cold Warrior" and more of the "Barrackroom Lawyer".    [Xp

 [


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## Pusser (27 Nov 2015)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Not to disagree.
> 
> Nonetheless, "Ordered to "get a phone"." made for an interesting four-page discussion / "argument".



The basic assumption in my experience is that everyone has a phone (and is rapidly becoming that everyone has a cell phone) and is expected to be contactable.  However, everyone has to be reasonable about it as well.  I don't think we could actually require someone to have a phone, but we can require a certain level of contact.  Thus, if you cannot be contacted by telephone within a reasonable timeframe, it is not unreasonable to expect you to call your unit periodically to see if you're required.  This is of course, situation dependent.  All of this can be trumped by the fact that crap happens.  The world does not fall apart because a handful of people don't get contacted during a unit recall.

When I did the Naval Operations Course years ago, on the subject of recall, we were given the following options:

1)  contact everyone at home by telephone;
2)  hoist flag "P"
3)  contact local radio/TV stations and ask them to broadcast
4)  contact local theatres and ask them to interrupt performances to make an announcement
5)  send shore patrol to know local hangouts
6)  send someone to members' houses 

I kid you not  [


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## Lumber (27 Nov 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Obviously not a "Cold Warrior" and more of the "Barrackroom Lawyer".    [Xp
> 
> [



In the Navy, we call them 'Lower-Deck Lawyers". 

"the ship’s company will be subject to recall only when the ship is designated as Ready Duty Ship or there is an increase in the Force Protection Level; however, a recall may be initiated at any other time." SSO AL9 MC4.

and

"RDS [ready duty ship] personnel absent from their normal residence/recall number for a period of more than four hours shall contact the ship every four hours  to verify if the ship’s company has been recalled." MARLANTORD 5-1

I don't think you need a legal policy or regulation to determine the "maximum time to report in". If you're recalled, the amount of time should be as little as it required. If you're out having dinner, it's the time required to pay your bill, drive home, drop off the wife, and get to the unit. 

Further to this, COs are well within their perogative to amplify exisiting regulations and orders through RO, SOs, and SOPs. If the CO of a unit says that any personnel going out of area (such as flying all the way to Toronto from Calgary on a weekend) are required to obtain permission from their chain of command fill out a leave pass, then that is a legal order and you can suffer the consequences if you choose to ignore it.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Nov 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Obviously not a "Cold Warrior" and more of the "Barrackroom Lawyer".    [Xp
> 
> [



OR someone who thinks (all) leadership should follow the policies in place.  Otherwise, I am disobeying instructions in the QR & 0.  Our job is to follow and enforce official, published policy, whether we agree with it, or not.   :2c:


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## CountDC (27 Nov 2015)

interesting reading to say the least.

We use MM for leave passes and export to the outlook calender.

What I haven't seen anyone mention here is the unit recall status.  For example I am currently on a 72 hour recall notice so my unit should be able to reach me within that period.  If that gets shortened then the recall process is initiated to notify everyone they are now on a 24 hour recall (or whatevery it is changed to).  I always thought 72 hour was the norm status for everyone in the CF and was why we used to submit leave passes when leaving the local area for weekends.  Once contact is made the time to get in is as fast as you can but at XXXXhr as the latest based on your situation.

Unit cell phones and duty phones are not the same thing and you have to be careful about mixing them up.  A duty phone means that - you are on duty and should be answering anytime it rings.  I believe there is a little blurb in the leave manual on duty phones that warns units about them as you can not be on duty 24/7 (and no we are not paid to be, we are paid to be available 24/7 with work hours assigned based on a 40 hour work week (I know - HA)).  Unit cell phones can be given out (I have one) so if they have to call you then can but you don't have to jump and answer.  I let mine go to the messages if outside work hours and check it occassionally for messages.  Basically it replaces our home/pers cell phone with a phone number the unit can give out to everyone and will be the same for every person that fills your position (I get posted, my replacement will have the same contact number).

Regulations such as QR&Os can be expanded on by the C of C as long as it does not take away entitlements so if your boss says the policy for your section is leave passes will be submitted there is no issue there.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Nov 2015)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Further to this, COs are well within their perogative to amplify exisiting regulations and orders through RO, SOs, and SOPs. If the CO of a unit says that any personnel going out of area (such as flying all the way to Toronto from Calgary on a weekend) are required to obtain permission from their chain of command fill out a leave pass, then that is a legal order and you can suffer the consequences if you choose to ignore it.



But it's already covered in a published MANUAL approved by the CMP, who is also the development/approving authority for leave for the entire CAF.  That MANUAL  states:

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.  

Flying from Toronto to Calgary isn't covered in the "_except when_" part, it is clearly stated a CF-100 is not required on weekends, or designated holidays.  Policy developed/approved by CMP.  Sounds pretty solid to me.

Hierarchy of orders.  So unless you can show me the reference that states clearly a CO has the authority to change the official policy approved by the CMP, I don't see much credibility to the statement "COs can do what they want/ignore higher CAF regulations and policy".  In this instance, the Leave Manual appears quite concise, and clear.  

My COs Sqn orders on leave follow the spirit, intent and policy of the CF Leave Manual.  I guess my CO pays heed to things like this...

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce:
i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Nov 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Regulations such as QR&Os can be expanded on by the C of C as long as it does not take away entitlements so if your boss says the policy for your section is leave passes will be submitted there is no issue there.



I agree with COs have the authority to a degree but it is not an all encompassing, blanket authority to change 'whatever they want despite higher policy'.  I usually laugh at people who say things like "I don't care what "insert policy/ref" says, I am telling you...".  Their ignorance is not my problem.  A quick read of the General Responsibility stuff in the QR & O Vol I is a good PD starting point.

Thankfully, I am in a unit who's CO follows the CMP direction WRT to Leave.


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## Good2Golf (27 Nov 2015)

> I look forward to dinosaur heads exploding when leave becomes an electronic transaction with no paper, just an automated email to a supervisor saying "Bloggins has requested leave.  Click here to approve, here to reject."



I see what you did there. 

I can click for some of my team, but C1A1 CF100 for the others, no matter the source generator (handraulic, .pdf, MM, small chimpanzee with a typewriter, etc...)

:2c:

G2G


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## MedCorps (27 Nov 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I agree with COs have the authority to a degree but it is not an all encompassing, blanket authority to change 'whatever they want despite higher policy'.  I usually laugh at people who say things like "I don't care what "insert policy/ref" says, I am telling you...".  Their ignorance is not my problem.  A quick read of the General Responsibility stuff in the QR & O Vol I is a good PD starting point.



Interesting.  When I did my command course to become a CO it was noted that CO's had the authority, right, privilege and responsibility to issue orders, direction, unit policy, protocols or procedures as long as they are not manifestly unlawful, unethical or immoral. You may also want to look at the CDS direction to new COs as I think it has something on this topic.

This included the tightening of existing policies and orders in order to ensure that my unit met it's mandate as tasked by the formation commander.  

MC


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Nov 2015)

Did it also say "anytime, anything, regardless of a higher instruction.  You do what you damn well want.  Let 'er pound!"   ;D

FWIW, this website contains details of many instances where COs have erred in their decision making and application of policy in those decisions.  Shall I pull some specific cases out for review or can we agree that even COs make mistakes and overstep this 'range of freedom' idea WRT due consideration of CAF policy?   

From the Leave Manual:

*Application  
*
Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).

*Approval Authority

*The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual is issued under the authority of the Chief Military Personnel (CMP).

1.1.08 Delegate Authority

_Where an authority is specifically identified in the CFLPM, there can be no delegation of authority to subordinate officers otherwise specified.
_

Ok.  Hmmmm.

Not seeing anything in 2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays about any delegation from the CMP (approving authority of the policy) to subordinate officers.  

I see this becoming a fast moving  :trainwreck:;  I've made my stance and pointed to policy from the CMP.  I'll continue to not submit leave passes on weekend and go out of province or where ever, IAW the CMP direction in the Leave Manual.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 May 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You'd also get off an AWOL charge for the leave pass thing as you were not absent without leave, as the leave policy says you don't need it. A smarter RSM would likely recommend Disobedience of a lawful command, if he didn't just give you extras knowing you were deliberately challenging the rules. Its all how the charge is written.



And would a ULA/JAG reviewing the charge agree WRT the particulars, when they went to the CMP authorized policy that 'applies to all CAF members'?

The REAL point shouldn't be how a charge should be written up to hang a mbr, it SHOULD be 'are all units be administered IAW CAF policy'.  The CAF Leave Policy Manual states you do not...NOT...need a leave pass for weekend leave inside of Canada (or words to that effect).

Full stop.  There should be no question on the spirit, intent OR wording.  But for ease and clarity....

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:

•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis.  

_*That*_ is the CAF policy.  All units need to do is *follow* it, not reinvent it or bastardize it.


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2016)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> _*That*_ is the CAF policy.  All units need to do is *follow* it, not reinvent it or bastardize it.



If people started doing that, wouldn't civilisation collapse?

What's next, expecting units, formations and commands to prepare PERs IAW CFPAS direction?


----------



## blackberet17 (12 May 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If people started doing that, wouldn't civilisation collapse?
> 
> What's next, expecting units, formations and commands to prepare PERs IAW CFPAS direction?



I sense another derail of the original topic coming...   >


----------



## armyvern (12 May 2016)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The leave pass issue;  there are already regulations, laid out.  No leave pass required.  If I am a WO, I can't just decide that hey, fuck it I am going to make my MCpls and below fill em out and charge them if they don't.  If the CMP says "you don't need a weekend leave pass", can a lowly CO order contrary?
> 
> ...



LOL; the rules also say that Commanders and Commanding Officers are required to maintain their nominal rolls as "up to date" and that CAF personnel are subject to recall 24/7 - even when on leave.

Don't want to fill out that leave pass for weekend leave?  IE: Don't want to waste the 10 seconds it takes because "some shitty leader is making up rules about leave passes" (even though most say anything more than 100/200kms away from base until requirement to fill one in kicks in - that "requirement being a lawful order of course) ...

Then by all means, DON'T.  Don't even fill one in if you are going "anywhere in Canada" as per the manual.

BUT, just remember that you ARE subject to recall and that you ARE AWOL if you are not returned to base within the number of hours said CO or Commander gives you to get there (usually 2 hours and ergo the 200km mark for leave passes).  And, you bear all the costs of cancellations/return flights from wherever at your OWN expense as you did not have a leave pass to cover you.

This whining fucking kills me:  This is your bosses looking after you and trying to make sure your asses are covered for expenses/recalls etc ... yet bitching about it.  Great leadership there I tell you.




WHY is this all still in this thread???


----------



## Pusser (13 May 2016)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> BUT, just remember that you ARE subject to recall and that you ARE AWOL if you are not returned to base within the number of hours said CO or Commander gives you to get there (usually 2 hours and ergo the 200km mark for leave passes).  And, you bear all the costs of cancellations/return flights from wherever at your OWN expense as you did not have a leave pass to cover you.



Refs:  QR&O 16.01
CBI 209.54

Not true.  Reimbursement of expenses for recall from leave simply requires that the member be on leave (weekend leave counts).  There is no requirement for a signed leave pass in order to claim expenses resulting from being recalled on a weekend.  If a member wants to go from Halifax to Vancouver for the weekend and the CO decides that he needs him back before Monday morning, then the unit has to pay.

Now, if the member does this when his unit is on x number of hours notice to move and he/she cannot make it back within that timeframe, the situation changes significantly.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (13 May 2016)

I got an interesting one this week. I have volunteered to work a course in Edmonton next month. I coach a roller derby team in Canmore AB, four hours away. On thursday night I want to drive down after work, coach and return back. 

It has been suggested that the drive there and back exceeds X hours and that I shouldn't be doing it as the CAF doesn't allow for more than X hours of driving at a time. 

Of course, once you dismiss me from work, I am "off" and can do what I want, no? Not a weekend but a weeknight. As long as I am at work on time the next day, I'm on my own time.

Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## Franko (13 May 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I got an interesting one this week. I have volunteered to work a course in Edmonton next month. I coach a roller derby team in Canmore AB, four hours away. On thursday night I want to drive down after work, coach and return back.
> 
> It has been suggested that the drive there and back exceeds X hours and that I shouldn't be doing it as the CAF doesn't allow for more than X hours of driving at a time.
> 
> ...



You're correct. You get into an accident, it's all on you. 

Regards


----------



## SupersonicMax (13 May 2016)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> You're correct. You get into an accident, it's all on you.
> 
> Regards



What do you mean "on you"?


----------



## Franko (13 May 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> What do you mean "on you"?



What isn't clear to you? The "on" or the "you"?

He's on his own time. If he wishes to drive when he's tired and possibly get into an accident, it's his own doing. Besides, it's within the province. No leave pass required.


----------



## SupersonicMax (13 May 2016)

Obviously no, it's not clear to me.

What is on you, if you get into an accident?  Medical fees?


----------



## QV (13 May 2016)

This is where the "you're not covered" or "you will lose your pension" threat comes I assume.


----------



## kratz (13 May 2016)

I agree, 

Nerf herder's post was far too general to be a medical authority for the average reader.

I am not an authority, but I am in contact with people who are working their way through the system.
Injury on or off duty for RegF and long term PRes does not rely on a leave pass.

example 1: Shovel your PMQ driveway after hours, slip and fall. Tailbone injury. VAC offers limited options
example 2: Shovel ??? in a duty area, slip and fall. Tailbone injury. VAC offers gold level services


----------



## dapaterson (13 May 2016)

On the other hand, eight hours driving (round trip) plus a couple hours training means you will be tired and less able to deliver the Army training you are paid to do. If your weekly road trips impact your ability to do your job, expect to have restrictions introduced by your chain of command.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (13 May 2016)

Interesting.  But wouldn't that be equal to ordering someone not to do something on their time off? 

Don't go play pick up hockey because you could possibly hurt yourself and it might impact your job. 

Don't drink Red Bull after hours as you could have a heart attack and it would impact your job. 

Etcetera, etcetera.

We head down a slippery slope doing that.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (13 May 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> On the other hand, eight hours driving (round trip) plus a couple hours training means you will be tired and less able to deliver the Army training you are paid to do. If your weekly road trips impact your ability to do your job, expect to have restrictions introduced by your chain of command.



That's a great example to use with a Crmn;  don't drive for 8 hours and do a few hours training as it make you tired and less able to do what the army pays you to do.  

 ;D


----------



## ModlrMike (13 May 2016)

Which takes us back to most units having a "defined geographic area" standing order WRT leave passes. It's pretty easy to appreciate that if one drives four hours, they're likely outside the unit's geographic area.


----------



## ballz (13 May 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> On the other hand, eight hours driving (round trip) plus a couple hours training means you will be tired and less able to deliver the Army training you are paid to do. If your weekly road trips impact your ability to do your job, expect to have restrictions introduced by your chain of command.



If my performance was sub-par I would expect to be put on remedial measures, not to have "restrictions introduced." But it's often far too much to expect the Chain of Command to treat people like adults. What's next, mandatory bed time?


----------



## dapaterson (13 May 2016)

What slippery slope? If extracurriculars detract from your ability to do the job you are paid to do, then choose one or the other.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 May 2016)

You mean, stuff like intersection hockey...CISM sports...that kind of stuff??

Because most of us know of those folks who are/were on the good old 'sports scholarship' plans who dodged course, field ex's, and the like...

No one likes a double-standard.


----------



## ballz (14 May 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What slippery slope? If extracurriculars detract from your ability to do the job you are paid to do, *then choose one or the other.*



That is not what you advocated for at all, personal choice and the associated consequences is what I am advocating for. You advocated for babysitting, something a lot Chains of Command need to realize is not one of its jobs.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 May 2016)

Having to arrange for last minute  day care for young kids before they go to school in the morning so you can test a unit recall and show up to work 2 hours early to sit around for 3 hours is awesome. Babysitter busy? Knock on the neighbors door to see if they will take your kids for this "emergency" lol

But it doesn't beat being called 2800 kilometers back off of leave so you can attend a brigade change of command ceremony (because your unit has too few people on the ground) only to get there and during sizing being told to just sit in the stands and spectate.


----------



## medicineman (14 May 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> What's next, mandatory bed time?



Funny you should mention that...we had an enforced curfew when I was in the language school at St Jean in 1988-89 for us cornflaked privates.  300 folks got charged for being 2 minutes late leaving the mess one Thursday night...we had to be in our rooms at 2330 on school nights.  My CSM was a crusty old WO who happened to be the BDO that night.  One of the two times I saw him smile in 6 months was when he marched in the 65 out of my company by threes.  All got $50/5 or $100/10 - fine/CB - depending on how many previous incidents had occurred.  The poor School and Base DO's had to stand by your bed inspections and change parades on all 300 people; t'were quite a sight to be seen that was.

MM


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## kratz (15 May 2016)

Or be the Combined Mess PMC and ensure "last call". Nobody has a leave pass and most should be flying within 12 hours.


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## ballz (15 May 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Refs:  QR&O 16.01
> CBI 209.54
> 
> Not true.  Reimbursement of expenses for recall from leave simply requires that the member be on leave (weekend leave counts).  There is no requirement for a signed leave pass in order to claim expenses resulting from being recalled on a weekend.  If a member wants to go from Halifax to Vancouver for the weekend and the CO decides that he needs him back before Monday morning, then the unit has to pay.



There is one hole in this, however. Without a leave pass for said weekend trips, what if your leave is cancelled on Thursday and now you have incurred expenses as a result? How can you claim reimbursement of expenses?

We are discussing this issue in my unit now. We know what the leave manual states. However, we have the problem of 1. maintaining our mandated readiness as the unit that currently has the NEO task, and 2. protecting the troops interest if their leave is cancelled.

While I'm usually pretty straight and narrow about the CoC adding in paperwork, red tape, etc etc over stupid s**t, I very much see the utility in having the troops fill out a leave pass for weekend leave if they are going outside the geographical area, utility for both the CoC and the soldier. Not for the purpose of "hey, you he didn't have a leave pass to be in Halifax his weekend... CSM, conduct a UDI."


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## Harrigan (16 May 2016)

I'm with Ballz on this one.

Most of the units I have been in followed the simple principle of the supervisor keeping a signed but blank leave pass in the bottom drawer - one for each subordinate.  In the event of something happening while on weekend leave without a pass, said supervisor can decide based on the situation whether to fill in the particulars (for, say, a compassionate case), or not (for, say, Bloggins flying off to Vegas without a leave pass and getting in a fight).  In both cases, supervisor can then sort out any 'remedial measures' in-house.


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## Pusser (16 May 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> There is one hole in this, however. Without a leave pass for said weekend trips, what if your leave is cancelled on Thursday and now you have incurred expenses as a result? How can you claim reimbursement of expenses?
> 
> We are discussing this issue in my unit now. We know what the leave manual states. However, we have the problem of 1. maintaining our mandated readiness as the unit that currently has the NEO task, and 2. protecting the troops interest if their leave is cancelled.
> 
> While I'm usually pretty straight and narrow about the CoC adding in paperwork, red tape, etc etc over stupid s**t, I very much see the utility in having the troops fill out a leave pass for weekend leave if they are going outside the geographical area, utility for both the CoC and the soldier. Not for the purpose of "hey, you he didn't have a leave pass to be in Halifax his weekend... CSM, conduct a UDI."



I was thinking more along the lines of someone who decides to go on lastminute.com on Friday night and just goes.  He would be fine.  In your example, you're right, Bloggins without a leave pass could be screwed if weekend leave was cancelled at the last minute.  Keep in mind, however, that leave may not be unreasonably withheld (QR&O 16.01), so a supervisor would have to convince the CO that Bloggins should not be allowed to go away that weekend.  Nevertheless, if you can get your act together to organize a trip across the country, surely you can fill out a leave pass...

As I said before, if your unit has a standing degree of readiness, everyone is required to be able to meet those timings.  A leave pass could constitute exemption from those timings.


----------



## Pusser (16 May 2016)

Harrigan said:
			
		

> I'm with Ballz on this one.
> 
> Most of the units I have been in followed the simple principle of the supervisor keeping a signed but blank leave pass in the bottom drawer - one for each subordinate.  In the event of something happening while on weekend leave without a pass, said supervisor can decide based on the situation whether to fill in the particulars (for, say, a compassionate case), or not (for, say, Bloggins flying off to Vegas without a leave pass and getting in a fight).  In both cases, supervisor can then sort out any 'remedial measures' in-house.



Some of the most frequently successful charges I've seen at courts martial are those concerning the falsification of documents...


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## Harrigan (16 May 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Some of the most frequently successful charges I've seen at courts martial are those concerning the falsification of documents...



You are assuming a nefarious intent of some sort.  The intent of a leave pass is to show one is on leave, no?  

The only times I have seen it used was in a compassionate-type case.  It is still incumbent upon the member to ensure that the supervisor is aware/approves that he/she is going away on leave, but sometimes there are situations where it just doesn't make sense to force the member to drive into the office to fill out a piece of paper at 2am on a Sunday, then try to find a supervisor to sign it (at 2am) when they need to get on a plane or drive wherever.

If it is a Vegas situation, nothing would be done and the member gets charged with AWOL.   Pretty simple.


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## Pusser (17 May 2016)

Harrigan said:
			
		

> You are assuming a nefarious intent of some sort.  The intent of a leave pass is to show one is on leave, no?
> 
> The only times I have seen it used was in a compassionate-type case.  It is still incumbent upon the member to ensure that the supervisor is aware/approves that he/she is going away on leave, but sometimes there are situations where it just doesn't make sense to force the member to drive into the office to fill out a piece of paper at 2am on a Sunday, then try to find a supervisor to sign it (at 2am) when they need to get on a plane or drive wherever.
> 
> If it is a Vegas situation, nothing would be done and the member gets charged with AWOL.   Pretty simple.



Fair enough, but such a thing is open to abuse.  By the same token, leave passes can be signed in arrears as well


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## George Wallace (17 May 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Fair enough, but such a thing is open to abuse.  By the same token, leave passes can be signed in arrears as well



Really?  Try that when a legal issue is the question.  I think that would bite you very deeply in the ass.


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## Pusser (17 May 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Really?  Try that when a legal issue is the question.  I think that would bite you very deeply in the ***.



Either course of action can leave someone deeply in the ***.  That's my point.

However, consider this:  a member is on Weekend Leave - no leave pass required - but then something happens and a document is needed to show the member was on leave.  On the one hand, his supervisor has a signed blank leave pass in his desk, which he completes and submits.  Or, the supervisor fills out a leave pass after the fact and dates it accordingly.  A leave pass signed by the member without any details as to locations or dates is no more valid than one filled out on his behalf after the fact.

The question is whether a leave pass is an authoritative document, without which leave is not granted, or an informative document, simply providing written proof.  I'm inclined to think it is the latter.


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## captloadie (17 May 2016)

I would agree with Pusser on this one. The leave pass is an administrative form to track leave balances. If I e-mail my CO requesting compassionate leave, and she replies saying "Granted for x days", I'm on leave. How the administrative part of that happens can be worked out later. If HRMS for the military were to be used as it was designed, we wouldn't need paper at all.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (17 May 2016)

I agree with captloadie wit one small caveat: If you are travelling abroad while on leave, having a piece of paper in hand can be useful. There are still countries out there where, if you are found to be in the military and claim to be on leave, but have no document to back your word, you will be "administratively" detained as suspected deserter (read in a cell and treated like sh$%) until they can clear it up with your chain of command.

Some of those countries are not as far as you may think


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## CountDC (19 May 2016)

maybe they will get it right with Guardian.      >


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (20 May 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Fair enough, but such a thing is open to abuse.  By the same token, leave passes can be signed in arrears as well



I was of the understanding that leave passes don't even need to be signed by the member. They can be signed off by the CoC without the member signing their part. 

Maybe this isn't the case, but I've seen it done quite often, people adding weeks onto post deployment leave etc.


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## Lumber (20 May 2016)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> I was of the understanding that leave passes don't even need to be signed by the member. They can be signed off by the CoC without the member signing their part.
> 
> Maybe this isn't the case, but I've seen it done quite often, people adding weeks onto post deployment leave etc.



Agreed. I've always assumed that this was why the "Requested by" section is left blank when Monitor Mass fills out a leave pass. If a member is away, then any one of his supervisors can "request" on his behalf, so they fill out and sign their names in the "requested by" section.


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## Pusser (20 May 2016)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> I was of the understanding that leave passes don't even need to be signed by the member. They can be signed off by the CoC without the member signing their part.
> 
> Maybe this isn't the case, but I've seen it done quite often, people adding weeks onto post deployment leave etc.



Considering that legal opinions have been rendered supporting the idea that one can be ordered to take leave, then this is certainly OK.


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## CountDC (27 May 2016)

The only signature I look for is the approving one. 

The mbrs signature spot is left blank in MM because the mbrs information is already on the leave pass at the top.  No need to type the name in again as it is just a signature block.  No one else should sign there though.  If the mbr is ordered on leave and not able/willing to sign then just have a copy of the order attached, CO sign leave pass and submit. If the mbr requested the leave via email attach it.  if it was telecon then scribble a note and attach.  If when the mbr gets their leave report they challenge any of the entires the supporting docs area there.


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## Lumber (10 Jun 2016)

CountDC said:
			
		

> The only signature I look for is the approving one.
> 
> The mbrs signature spot is left blank in MM because the mbrs information is already on the leave pass at the top.  No need to type the name in again as it is just a signature block.  No one else should sign there though.  If the mbr is ordered on leave and not able/willing to sign then just have a copy of the order attached, CO sign leave pass and submit. If the mbr requested the leave via email attach it.  if it was telecon then scribble a note and attach.  If when the mbr gets their leave report they challenge any of the entires the supporting docs area there.



That box says "Requested by", so I've operated by taking that wording at face value.

If a supervisor is trying to submit a leave pass on behalf of one of their subordinates (with Class-As this happens a lot), I get them to put their name in that block and to sign it, as they are the ones "requesting" the leave.


----------



## runormal (10 Jun 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> That box says "Requested by", so I've operated by taking that wording at face value.
> 
> If a supervisor is trying to submit a leave pass on behalf of one of their subordinates (with Class-As this happens a lot), I get them to put their name in that block and to sign it, as they are the ones "requesting" the leave.



When would a CLS A member have to submit a leave pass? Maybe my unit works differently, but I've never filled out a leave pass. (I do inform my COC via email whenever I go outside of the area for more than a day and a give as much contact information as possible in case something were to happen).


----------



## Lumber (10 Jun 2016)

runormal said:
			
		

> When would a CLS A member have to submit a leave pass? Maybe my unit works differently, but I've never filled out a leave pass. (I do inform my COC via email whenever I go outside of the area for more than a day and a give as much contact information as possible in case something were to happen).



When proceeding on Class B and C contracts. A member gets tasked to teach BMNQ for the summer at CFFS(Q) in Valcartier. They want to drive, but it takes two days to drive to Valcartier, so they need to take a day of paid-leave (within their contract) in addition to the one day of travel that the school initially offered. Since all of this is being done by me and my day staff, we can put Requested by: "LT(N) XXX" in their place. 

I've actually signed the leave pass in all 3 spaces before. I signed the "requested by", the "recommended", and even the "Approved By" with an attached email from the CO stating that he approved the leave and to sign on his behalf.


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## runormal (10 Jun 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> When proceeding on Class B and C contracts. A member gets tasked to teach BMNQ for the summer at CFFS(Q) in Valcartier. They want to drive, but it takes two days to drive to Valcartier, so they need to take a day of paid-leave (within their contract) in addition to the one day of travel that the school initially offered. Since all of this is being done by me and my day staff, we can put Requested by: "LT(N) XXX" in their place.
> 
> I've actually signed the leave pass in all 3 spaces before. I signed the "requested by", the "recommended", and even the "Approved By" with an attached email from the CO stating that he approved the leave and to sign on his behalf.



Makes sense, seen. I was unaware as I've never done any class b outside of courses.  Thanks  :cheers:


----------



## Lumber (10 Jun 2016)

runormal said:
			
		

> Makes sense, seen. I was unaware as I've never done any class b outside of courses.  Thanks  :cheers:



It could even happen for your courses.

You earn leave during your courses, and depending on the situation, sometimes the leave pass for that leave is completed by us at the unit before you leave. So in that case my team would be preparing that leave pass without you around.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Jun 2016)

You are authorizing leave before the leave has been 'earned' then, no?  What if the mbr is sick or something and is RTUd Day 2 of the tasking of course?


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## dapaterson (10 Jun 2016)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You are authorizing leave before the leave has been 'earned' then, no?  What if the mbr is sick or something and is RTUd Day 2 of the tasking of course?



Advancing leave is common.  Otherwise, no one in the Reg F could take more than 8 annual in July.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Jun 2016)

If you are just Cl B and get RTUd from a course, you don't stay on Cl B though and wouldn't 'earn' leave days.  

Reg Frce people don't have the same issue 99.99% of the time.


----------



## dapaterson (10 Jun 2016)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If you are just Cl B and get RTUd from a course, you don't stay on Cl B though and wouldn't 'earn' leave days.
> 
> Reg Frce people don't have the same issue 99.99% of the time.



How many Reservists would have that problem?  Do we make policy to disadvantage 99%+ of people for who it won't be an issue?


----------



## CountDC (10 Jun 2016)

same as when a reg f mbr overuses their leave - we recover from the pay.

We publish the deduction to their pay account putting it into the red.  if they don't work and release it will be recovered from any moneys owed to him.  If that doesn't zero it then it goes to JAG with anything else outstanding for recovery action.

When RTU you may stay on Cl B and be employed at the home unit.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Jun 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> How many Reservists would have that problem?  Do we make policy to disadvantage 99%+ of people for who it won't be an issue?



We are still talking about the CAF, right?   8)     

Damn right then!  :rofl:

This is just 'new' then I guess...when I was Res, and on Cl B, we couldn't use it before we 'earned it'.


----------



## dapaterson (10 Jun 2016)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> We are still talking about the CAF, right?   8)
> 
> Damn right then!  :rofl:
> 
> This is just 'new' then I guess...when I was Res, and on Cl B, we couldn't use it before we 'earned it'.



There's no policy bar to doing it; there are, however, numerous local interpretations that appear designed to piss people off, just because they can.


----------



## CountDC (10 Jun 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> That box says "Requested by", so I've operated by taking that wording at face value.
> 
> If a supervisor is trying to submit a leave pass on behalf of one of their subordinates (with Class-As this happens a lot), I get them to put their name in that block and to sign it, as they are the ones "requesting" the leave.



Requested by is the member, info already at top of leave pass, no need for anyone else information to go in there.  The supervisor isn't requesting on behalf of the mbr as the mbr must have requested it somehow whether verbally or in writing unless they have been ordered on leave so there should be something reflecting that such as a supervisor note that Cpl Bloggins called at 1100h 1 Jun 2016 requesting leave for date from date to.  The supervisor should be recommending instead.  

But in reality most leave clerks are only looking for the one signature - approved.  Everything else is only a concern if Bloggins disputes he was on leave during that period.  Much easier if there is something showing that he did and a supervisor signing a leave pass in the requested section does not show this.

EIS - that was changed a while ago.  Now everything is almost the same as reg f except how many days you earn for the year (24) and you don't get 2 days for every partial month you work (still based on every 15 days giving 1 day).


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## 63 Delta (24 Jul 2016)

> All compassionate leave requests must be substantiated to the satisfaction of the approving authority.


 http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page#chap7

What level of substantiation is reasonable for compassionate leave? Example, if a member has a spouse who is dealing with an illness, what is reasonable to ask for proof?


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## SeaKingTacco (24 Jul 2016)

Your Commanding Officer is really the final judge of what consistutes proof, since he/she is the approving authority for Compassionate Leave.


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## ballz (24 Jul 2016)

Exactly that, unless you are looking for more than 14 days compassionate at which point a higher authority becomes the approving authority.

The document outlines that they are looking for "substantiation" rather than "proof." It is up to the CO if he wants to take the member's word at face value, request some kind of documents, have the padre follow up, or whatever. But you could literally produce no "proof" whatsoever, if the CO decides your reason is substantial enough to warrant giving you time off to deal with it, then he can do that without asking for any "proof" at all.


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## Good2Golf (24 Jul 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Exactly that, unless you are looking for more than 14 days compassionate at which point a higher authority becomes the approving authority.
> 
> The document outlines that they are looking for "substantiation" rather than "proof." It is up to the CO if he wants to take the member's word at face value, request some kind of documents, have the padre follow up, or whatever. But you could literally produce no "proof" whatsoever, if the CO decides your reason is substantial enough to warrant giving you time off to deal with it, then he can do that without asking for any "proof" at all.



As well, if the nature of the substantiation is private, you can request to speak directly with the CO.  Unless the CO has put one in place, there is not a 'vetting' process to go through to get the request approved, it is the CO's call.  I have seen in the past some units require that the member speak with the Padre, but that should be as further support to the member, not an approval gate to get to the CO.

:2c:

Regards
G2G


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Jul 2016)

When I was in Pet, many, many years ago, we had a sort of 'permanent pass'. It was a wallet card, showing the Regimental boundary for weekends. It, IIRC, was encompassed in a circle with Ottawa and North Bay at its poles and west and east being equal distance to north and south. That wallet card was your leave pass for that area, signed by the CO. Before you left the Unit lines on Friday, you signed the weekend book with the RPs, showing contact info for the weekend. Easy peezy.

No spending hours of admin weekly for normal leave passes.


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## George Wallace (24 Jul 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> When I was in Pet, many, many years ago, we had a sort of 'permanent pass'. It was a wallet card, showing the Regimental boundary for weekends. It, IIRC, was encompassed in a circle with Ottawa and North Bay at its poles and west and east being equal distance to north and south. That wallet card was your leave pass for that area, signed by the CO. Before you left the Unit lines on Friday, you signed the weekend book with the RPs, showing contact info for the weekend. Easy peezy.
> 
> No spending hours of admin weekly for normal leave passes.



Ah!  See that was Old Army.  That was the days when there were Duty Pers in the Shacks, Messes (Wet and Dry), HQ, and periodically at Base HQ and Front Gates.  A time when a Signout Book was kept in the Duty Room in the Shack or HQ.  The New Army can't find enough pers to do that many duties and log books are something that are archived in a museum.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jul 2016)

With the CF Leave Policy Manual now, weekend leave passes are not required.  The expectation when you leave after duty on Friday is that you will be back at your place of duty Monday morning at XXXX time.  Normal working hours are supposed to be published in unit/Sqn orders (they are at my Sqn).

If the CAF needs me to be on standby/recall whatever you want to call it, they let me know ahead of time and I am not on 'weekend leave' and subj to the orders my Sqn has for recall times (limits to where I can go, etc). 

Its actually quite easy and works well.  I don't need to sign a book on Friday because the unit has my cell phone and address and my skipper can msg me on FB, text etc.  Also, as I am not on duty when I leave Friday until XXXX time Monday morning (if I am not on standby), I am not expecting anyone to try to get ahold of me.  If the SHTF on the weekend, that's what the Ready crew is on standby to handle.

The days of controlling people's lives 24/7 'just in case WWIII starts' are in the past...I do enough weekends on standby (like this weekend, and last weekend...).  Good luck getting a hold of me on the rare weekend I have off these days.


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## tristismilitis (10 Nov 2016)

I recognize this post is a few months old but wanted to add one thing and ask a question. WRT being recalled from 'weekend leave'; I was able to request reimbursement for booked events that I had to miss due to a last minute tasking (I did not have a weekend leave pass), so the possibility is always there depending in part on CoC and Unit SOPs in terms of weekend leave passes. I have learned my lesson though and will ensure I have leave passes or other approved documentation to CMA in future when I have expensive events booked on "off-duty hours". Can't be too careful when it concerns money! 

Which brings me to my question:

Hoping someone could assist with the actual reference for recovering leave from a mbr's pay. I've read through the leave manual, DAODs, QR&Os and even took a stab at paging through the HRMS reference portal, but could not find anything more specific than "any Ann leave over-expenditure...will be the object of a leave forfeiture imposed on the mbr to recuperate the excess". OR at the losing unit did a leave audit prior to forwarding to the gaining unit and despite this being the third posting, discovered an error from over a decade ago and mentioned that I will most like be required to repay five Annual days at my current rate of pay. Obviously unimpressed and while I try to review the calculations/information I would like to know the specific references used in a recovery of this nature so I can prepare a memo or grievance.  

Thanks for any assistance!

tm.


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## Pusser (14 Nov 2016)

They don't normally take actual money from you.  The usual method is to adjust your current leave entitlement.  If you have accrued or accumulated leave, this is easily covered.  If you only have annual leave left, they simply reduce what you have left.  The only time they actually take money is if you have no leave of any sort left on your account (which normally only happens on release).


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## hattrick72 (3 Dec 2016)

I had a member who was having a baby and was not planning on taking any parental leave as his wife had full benefits at her work. He put in for 2 short and 5 annual he had saved for this occasion because he didn't want his wife alone after a C section. 
Knowing how busy you can get with a new baby I decided to request 5 additional days of compassionate as the member would most likely not come back refreshed and the C section surgery really limits the actions one can perform for weeks. 
Unfortunately it was denied as it wasn't for a family emergency.
Am I being too soft or is this a good situation to authorise compassionate leave to benefit the family?  
Would remedial measures influence this decision?  (Member was not on remedial measures)


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## PuckChaser (3 Dec 2016)

Compassionate leave isn't an entitlement. Member was lucky they even got short leave. I was lucky enough to take 2 weeks compassionate for my kids as the CO didn't want to lose me for an entire year. Next CO that took over authorized 4 days of compassionate starting as soon as your spouse went into labour, a polar shift but within her rights as the CO.


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## Bzzliteyr (3 Dec 2016)

Funny that we'd talk about parental leave. Is there a standard on what you *should* get when wifey gives birth?

I *may* have a baby on the way next year.


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## PuckChaser (3 Dec 2016)

The only thing you're entitled to is your own annual and PATA. Compassionate and short are CO's discretion.


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## ballz (3 Dec 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Funny that we'd talk about parental leave. Is there a standard on what you *should* get when wifey gives birth?
> 
> I *may* have a baby on the way next year.



Apparently not judging by the posts above. Our unit gives 2 weeks if you aren't taking parental leave, I don't know how long that tradition has existed but its been that way through at least 3x COs now and I don't expect it to change. I think its one of the better standing policies we have at our unit.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Compassionate leave isn't an entitlement. Member was lucky they even got short leave.



It may not be an entitlement, but I wouldn't say they were "lucky" to be given 2x short days. The CO does have some responsibility to give at least a shred of a care about his/her subordinates and their families.


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## PuckChaser (3 Dec 2016)

I'd agree, but I've also worked for some pretty piss poor CO's who wouldn't give any leave out besides Christmas short, and some OCs who wouldn't stand up for those troops.


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## sidemount (3 Dec 2016)

Been there.
First kid I got 5 compassionate.
2nd, nothing...just annual. 2 different units...

Sent from my Samsung S6 using Tapatalk


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## captloadie (5 Dec 2016)

Maybe I fall into the group of hard asses, but I tend to evaluate the granting of short and/or compassionate on an individual basis. Blanket policies to me are unfair. I don't think having a baby is a compassionate situation. It also doesn't hit you out of the blue (in most cases you have several months to plan for it). That being said, there are individual reasons that I would fully support compassionate leave. Complications that leave the baby or the mother in hospital, a C-section that keeps the mother off her feet, or unable to deal with the baby on her own. Maybe even first time parents who don't have a local support network to help get them into a routine. 

But if the member wants time off to bond with the newborn, or visit family, etc etc. I think that is what annual and/or PATA leave is for.


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## Pusser (5 Dec 2016)

I'm inclined to agree with captloadie on this one.

The QR&O says:

16.17 - COMPASSIONATE LEAVE

(2) Compassionate leave may be granted only for urgent and exceptional personal reasons and the commanding officer shall:

a.in normal cases verify to his satisfaction the grounds upon which the leave is requested before granting it; and

b.in cases of apparent urgency grant the leave and instruct the applicant to furnish definite verification of the grounds on the applicant's return from leave.


The Leave Policy Manual says:

7.1.02 Policy

Compassionate leave is separate from annual and accumulated leave and the member's CO or OCC, as applicable, determines the conditions under which it may be granted.

Examples of urgent and exceptional personal reasons include but are not limited to:

•situations of death or critical illness of a family member. Critical illness would be an illness or injury that is of such severity the patient's life is in immediate danger.

•traumatic family situations relating to the member or their family that are due to severe injury, disease or trauma that has detrimental and significant effect on the member's ability to perform assigned duties.


Whereas the regulations provide sufficient flexibility to a CO to decide that just about anything can qualify for Compassionate Leave, the examples provided, define the intent of the policy.  It is hard to argue that a normal childbirth situation would be reasonable grounds for Compassionate Leave.  My mother the obstetrical nurse has always been adamant that normal pregnancy and childbirth are neither "medical conditions" nor emergencies.

Furthermore, the idea of granting Compassionate Leave on the understanding that the member won't take Parental Leave is dangerous.  Notwithstanding any horse-trading of benefits, there is absolutely nothing preventing a member from turning around a week later and asking for Parental Leave.  What would happen in a case (especially one involving a very junior member) where he really needed Parental Leave, but felt he could no longer get it because he's already taken some Compassionate.  Trading entitlements (which has no basis in regulation anyway) is always dangerous.

There is no minimum amount of Parental Leave that a member can take, so if someone wants more leave than he (or she for that matter) can get using Annual, Short, Weekend or Stat, I recommend going through the process for Parental Leave.  Yes, there is a bunch of paperwork involved, but it's a better alternative to delving into "gray policy."


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## ballz (5 Dec 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Furthermore, the idea of granting Compassionate Leave on the understanding that the member won't take Parental Leave is dangerous.



That's not what our unit does. I never said anything about granting them compassionate leave.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> Notwithstanding any horse-trading of benefits, there is absolutely nothing preventing a member from turning around a week later and asking for Parental Leave.  What would happen in a case (especially one involving a very junior member) where he really needed Parental Leave, but felt he could no longer get it because he's already taken some Compassionate.  Trading entitlements (which has no basis in regulation anyway) is always dangerous.



Our way of dealing with all of this covers this just fine. In the few instances where something has changed and someone needed to take the Parental, they paid back the leave they took. No hard feelings.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> There is no minimum amount of Parental Leave that a member can take, so if someone wants more leave than he (or she for that matter) can get using Annual, Short, Weekend or Stat, I recommend going through the process for Parental Leave.



I'll happy disagree, I like the way we do it. It works for the member, it works for the unit, and its one of the better uses of Command discretion that I've seen. Of all the things that don't follow policy, this is probably the one that concerns me the least.


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## CountDC (5 Dec 2016)

you mean the kind that is against regulations and is a form of fraud that could result in charges laid if it was found out by the wrong people so publishing it on a public site probably is not the best idea? 10 Days - really? and people complain about the navy sliders or make and mend days.

Curious - how would you justify the mbr needing to accumulate leave at the end year if they weren't able to use them all?  Imagine that would look good - mbr was unable to use his legitimate earned annual leave as we gave him 10 days off without approved leave.


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## ballz (5 Dec 2016)

CountDC said:
			
		

> probably is not the best idea?



I couldn't care less... I'm on my way out because



> Of all the things that don't follow policy, this is probably the one that concerns me the least.



But sure, I'll re-word that part of the post so we can all feel comfortable discussing the merits of it.



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Curious - how would you justify the mbr needing to accumulate leave at the end year if they weren't able to use them all?  Imagine that would look good - mbr was unable to use his legitimate earned annual leave as we gave him 10 days off without approved leave.



I'm not grown up enough for that (managing leave, etc) so answering that mail is not my issue (one more reason I'm on my way out). That said, using up all annual leave hasn't been an issue.


I don't see 10x days as being an issue. Many people want time at home with their newborn and their wife. If they go through the hassle of taking parental, they will take a lot more than two weeks, probably a whole year. The parental benefits in the CAF are lucrative. I don't think the taxpayer is being hard done by to have someone take 10 paid days off instead of a year of parental. It works for the unit, it works for the member, and it works for the taxpayer in my mind. I wish it *were* policy. Like I said, of all the things I've seen that don't follow policy, this one concerns me the least.


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## Pusser (12 Dec 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> That's not what our unit does. I never said anything about granting them compassionate leave.
> 
> Our way of dealing with all of this covers this just fine. In the few instances where something has changed and someone needed to take the Parental, they paid back the leave they took. No hard feelings.
> 
> I'll happy disagree, I like the way we do it. It works for the member, it works for the unit, and its one of the better uses of Command discretion that I've seen. Of all the things that don't follow policy, this is probably the one that concerns me the least.



If it's not Compassionate Leave, then what is it?  It's not Short Leave, because that's limited to two days per calendar month.  It's apparently not Annual and obviously can't be Weekend.  It's not Stat because no holiday lasts that long.  And it most certainly isn't Special because no CO has the authority to grant any Special Leave not listed in the Leave Manual (and there isn't a category of Special Leave for having a baby).  If what you've described is correct, then your unit is treading on very dangerous ground, which could well turn around and bite somebody (both member and CO) later, when it gets audited - and all leave is audited eventually - and yes, they will recover unauthorized leave from your pay on release (at whatever rate of pay you're receiving when you release).


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## Lumber (12 Dec 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> If it's not Compassionate Leave, then what is it?  It's not Short Leave, because that's limited to two days per calendar month.  It's apparently not Annual and obviously can't be Weekend.  It's not Stat because no holiday lasts that long.  And it most certainly isn't Special because no CO has the authority to grant any Special Leave not listed in the Leave Manual (and there isn't a category of Special Leave for having a baby).  If what you've described is correct, then your unit is treading on very dangerous ground, which could well turn around and bite somebody (both member and CO) later, when it gets audited - and all leave is audited eventually - and yes, they will recover unauthorized leave from your pay on release (at whatever rate of pay you're receiving when you release).



It must be "Compensatory Time Off". A made up form of leave that exists only in fairy tales and the Primary Reserve  ;D.


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> . . . fairy tales and the Primary Reserve  ;D.



Doesn't including both terms in the same sentence make one of them redundant?


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## CountDC (12 Dec 2016)

But it works fine for everyone so it's ok.....until something goes wrong. Cpl Bloggins is supposed to be at work and instead is 200 kms away visiting his wife family and showing off the new baby.  Oops, he gets in an accident, hospital, leg amputated, looking at medical release and the questions start.

I have no problem with giving the member time off if the CO wants to but it should adhere to current regulations.  We don't get to totally ignore the regulation because it suits us.  Compassionate is so wide open for the CO there is no reason the member can not submit the leave pass and have it approved by the CO if the CO wants to go that route. Myself I have always planned accordingly and had annual leave to take until the PATA leave started on Sunday.


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## ballz (12 Dec 2016)

CountDC said:
			
		

> But it works fine for everyone so it's ok.....until something goes wrong. Cpl Bloggins is supposed to be at work and instead is 200 kms away visiting his wife family and showing off the new baby.  Oops, he gets in an accident, hospital, leg amputated, looking at medical release and the questions start.



While most of your points are valid, this stuff people use about "what if an accident happens" is bunch of silliness. A leave pass exists so the person cannot be convicted for AWOL. It's your permission slip to not show up for work on any given day. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are going to be treated at the hospital or by CF health services. I don't think I have to spell out for you what would happen with regards to being on a leave pass or not if that accident occurred, as you are probably aware of the drill.



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> I have no problem with giving the member time off if the CO wants to but it should adhere to current regulations.  We don't get to totally ignore the regulation because it suits us.



But that's what CO's / RSMs / others do all the time, no matter how much it irks me or you. And most of the time its to their own benefit and no one else's (not the taxpayer or the member). So, like I said, this is the least of all things I care about.


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## QV (12 Dec 2016)

The CO sets the working and non working days for the unit.  These days ballz mentions sound like the CO designated them non working days to me.


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## PuckChaser (12 Dec 2016)

I sincerely hope I never have to work for the people suggesting we not give out any compassionate leave. And the excuse is a member wouldn't spend all their annual? You can combine annual with compassionate, and the CO can order someone onto annual leave to complete mitigate that issue. CO can also accumulate up to 5 days, without any caveats (which most CO's are extremely afraid to do).


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## captloadie (13 Dec 2016)

I am getting so sick and tired of individuals thinking they are entitled to the moon and beyond. In the majority of cases, there is no argument for compassionate leave for the healthy birth of a child. If we continue to drift so far from the intent of our regulations they will be changed, and not for the better. The latitude that COs have will be stripped from them because they won't be trusted stay within not just the letter of the regulation, but the intent. We, the CAF, do not have leave entitlement for the birth of a child, it doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. Full stop.

As for the carry over policy, COs aren't scared to authorize it. It gets authorized in those circumstances that are merited. Someone's CoC not being able to apply the management skill of personnel scheduling isn't a reason to sign off on accumulated leave, which by the way, is also not a "given" to CAF members.


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## Lumber (13 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I sincerely hope I never have to work for the people suggesting we not give out any compassionate leave. And the excuse is a member wouldn't spend all their annual? You can combine annual with compassionate, and the CO can order someone onto annual leave to complete mitigate that issue. CO can also accumulate up to 5 days, without any caveats (which most CO's are extremely afraid to do).



On one extremely strict end, we have those who say compassionate can only be used for death or serious injury to an immediate family member, even though the regs don't say anything about compassionate being for "immediate" family only.

On the other extreme end (the laissez-faire end), we have those who will give out compassionate for any death or serious injury in the family; grandmother-in-law, or your dog, for example.

At least, that's what thought the other extreme end was. Two weeks off for the birth of your child? Maybe if there are some extenuating circumstances, like complications risking the health of the wife or child; but, a blanket "having a kid? Have two weeks off!"? It just feels like you're throwing the entire leave manual in the garbage and rejecting the whole idea of efficient management and personnel accountability.


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## PuckChaser (13 Dec 2016)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I am getting so sick and tired of individuals thinking they are entitled to the moon and beyond. In the majority of cases, there is no argument for compassionate leave for the healthy birth of a child. If we continue to drift so far from the intent of our regulations they will be changed, and not for the better. The latitude that COs have will be stripped from them because they won't be trusted stay within not just the letter of the regulation, but the intent. We, the CAF, do not have leave entitlement for the birth of a child, it doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. Full stop.
> 
> As for the carry over policy, COs aren't scared to authorize it. It gets authorized in those circumstances that are merited. Someone's CoC not being able to apply the management skill of personnel scheduling isn't a reason to sign off on accumulated leave, which by the way, is also not a "given" to CAF members.



No problem. As a one of one in a unit, working one rank up and as a secondary duty filling the CCO role, I'll just go ahead and take an entire year off and the CO can worry about the implications to his/her exercises/training with me gone when my 2iC is a first year MCpl who would be responsible for all comms planning.

We're not entitled to Short leave over Christmas either, but we get that. Sometimes you can't just be all stick and no carrot.

As for accumulated leave, I call BS on that. 6 COs, and only 1 has not had the policy of "I will not accumulate leave". In fact, I even delivered a memo (in January) once asking to accumulate 5 annual days so that I could use them in April when my child was due to be born (so I wouldn't take PATA and damage the operational effectiveness of the unit), and was told no. Is that planning far enough ahead?

Sometimes being by the book means your nose is so far into it that your eyes can't see the effect it has on your troops. A little bit of extra leave goes along way to show a troop "This CO has my back" and motivates them to work harder because they know they'll be taken care of.


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## Pusser (13 Dec 2016)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I am getting so sick and tired of individuals thinking they are entitled to the moon and beyond. In the majority of cases, there is no argument for compassionate leave for the healthy birth of a child. If we continue to drift so far from the intent of our regulations they will be changed, and not for the better. The latitude that COs have will be stripped from them because they won't be trusted stay within not just the letter of the regulation, but the intent. We, the CAF, do not have leave entitlement for the birth of a child, it doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. Full stop.
> 
> As for the carry over policy, COs aren't scared to authorize it. It gets authorized in those circumstances that are merited. Someone's CoC not being able to apply the management skill of personnel scheduling isn't a reason to sign off on accumulated leave, which by the way, is also not a "given" to CAF members.



Well said and a perfect example of leave regulations being changed to our detriment because of abuses is current accumulation policy.  Too many people were accumulating too much leave, so the practice was stopped.  We lucky that that is all we lost.  There was serious discussion of reducing our annual leave entitlement as well (i.e. if we weren't using it every year, then we obviously didn't need as much as we were getting).


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## Pusser (13 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I sincerely hope I never have to work for the people suggesting we not give out any compassionate leave. And the excuse is a member wouldn't spend all their annual? You can combine annual with compassionate, and the CO can order someone onto annual leave to complete mitigate that issue. CO can also accumulate up to 5 days, without any caveats (which most CO's are extremely afraid to do).



No one is suggesting that Compassionate Leave should never be granted.  We are saying that it should only be granted for those situations for which it was designed.


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## armyvern (13 Dec 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> No one is suggesting that Compassionate Leave should never be granted.  We are saying that it should only be granted for those situations for which it was designed.



Bingo.  Just like PATA is intended for Parental leave.

I dunno --- I didn't think it was rocket science.


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## Pusser (13 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> No problem. As a one of one in a unit, working one rank up and as a secondary duty filling the CCO role, I'll just go ahead and take an entire year off and the CO can worry about the implications to his/her exercises/training with me gone when my 2iC is a first year MCpl who would be responsible for all comms planning.
> 
> We're not entitled to Short leave over Christmas either, but we get that. Sometimes you can't just be all stick and no carrot.
> 
> ...



Why not take an entire year off? It's actually not that long, unless you are the mother and combining MATA and PATA anyway.  Your unit's scheduling issues are not your problem and you "taking one for the team" won't win you any extra points.  No one will thank you for not exercising an entitlement.  Furthermore, your unit can legitimately backfill your position under these circumstances, so if your CO does his/her job, there should be no significant gap.

Your idea of planning ahead for Accumulated Leave is simply not supported by regulation.  The policy is quite clear.  Annual Leave can only be accumulated if you are unable to use it for operational reasons.  Even then, the approving authority still needs to be comfortable that you honestly had no opportunity to use it.  "Banking" it may seem like a good idea, but is simply not allowed.  Note that this issue was well-examined and discussed c. 1995 when the regulations on the accumulation of Annual Leave were changed.  As an aside, although the chief reason for almost completely stopping the accumulation of Annual Leave was in order to reduce the overall CAF liability for it, another reason was to force COs to ensure that their personnel were actually getting leave.  There were cases where individuals were effectively being denied leave and were burning out (e.g. combing ships' leave periods with short work periods, where many engineers effectively got no time off).

A CO can look after his/her troops and "have their backs" within the framework of policy and regulation.  Reckless disregard for policy and regulation doesn't actually help anyone in the long run and as I've said before, can come back to bite folks later.  Granting unauthorized leave now will get picked up in an audit later and could be costly (e.g. two days taken as a Cpl will be paid back as a CWO).  Doing the "right thing" now that eventually ends up screwing the troops over, isn't really the "right thing" is it?


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## kev994 (13 Dec 2016)

The one thing I learned from taking parental was that I should have taken it all. People will appreciate you coming back, but that appreciation doesn't go very far. Take it all.


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## CountDC (13 Dec 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> While most of your points are valid, this stuff people use about "what if an accident happens" is bunch of silliness. A leave pass exists so the person cannot be convicted for AWOL. It's your permission slip to not show up for work on any given day. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are going to be treated at the hospital or by CF health services. I don't think I have to spell out for you what would happen with regards to being on a leave pass or not if that accident occurred, as you are probably aware of the drill.
> 
> But that's what CO's / RSMs / others do all the time, no matter how much it irks me or you. And most of the time its to their own benefit and no one else's (not the taxpayer or the member). So, like I said, this is the least of all things I care about.



Didn't even think the slightest about treatment for the injury. The leave pass also has an effect on benefits.  Injured on duty, while AWOL or injured on leave will result in different benefits or have they changed the rules in the last year.  

CO's/RSMs/others doing it does not make it right.  Get that you don't care same as many others don't care but that doesn't change the regulation or the fact that there is a system in place already to deal with these situations.  Absolutely no reason for the member to not use annual or PATA leave.  I have done it 3 times myself for 9 months.  The excuse some use of not wanting to go through all the work is bull as it is the MATA/PATA clerk that does all the real work.  The member simply submits his memo, it gets approved, sent to the clerk who does up everything for the member to sign.  Only other thing the member has to do is make sure they send in the birth certificate and provide the EI print outs. 

Unit needs as a reason for not taking PATA is another lame excuse.  Sure someone else will do the work while you are gone for the 9 months and the world will not fall apart.  If you are in a position that really is that important they will do their homework and get a backfill, it is done a lot so no rocket science to it.  Go into REO and you will see lots of positions looking for reserves to fill in.

I understand people wanting to be flexible but a clear break of the regulations for convenience sake is pure crap.


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## armyvern (13 Dec 2016)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Didn't even think the slightest about treatment for the injury. The leave pass also has an effect on benefits.  Injured on duty, while AWOL or injured on leave will result in different benefits or have they changed the rules in the last year.
> 
> CO's/RSMs/others doing it does not make it right.  Get that you don't care same as many others don't care but that doesn't change the regulation or the fact that there is a system in place already to deal with these situations.  Absolutely no reason for the member to not use annual or PATA leave.  I have done it 3 times myself for 9 months.  The excuse some use of not wanting to go through all the work is bull as it is the MATA/PATA clerk that does all the real work.  The member simply submits his memo, it gets approved, sent to the clerk who does up everything for the member to sign.  Only other thing the member has to do is make sure they send in the birth certificate and provide the EI print outs.
> 
> ...



I'll just add that it isn't what "we" (COs, RSMs etc) do all the time to our benefit; not at this Unit, not at my previous Unit, not in the Unit prior to that ...

Someone needs to check his disgruntedness because he's waaaayyyy f'n off-base.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> ...
> But that's what CO's / RSMs / others do all the time, no matter how much it irks me or you. And most of the time its to their own benefit and no one else's (not the taxpayer or the member). So, like I said, this is the least of all things I care about.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (14 Dec 2016)

Wow.  Just wow.

Leave Policy is just that - policy.  It is not a law.  Policy is intended to provide guidance to Commanders.  Commanders are expected to make judgements and decisions, guided by that policy.  Note that I said guided.  

We have a fragile force right now, for a host of reasons.  Mindless application of "policy" without consideration of the circumstances of either the member or the unit is part of how we got there.  That is a good indication of a commander abrogating his duty to care for not just his troops but his unit.  It is an indication of being risk averse, usually to the detriment of the member and the unit.  We have COs to make those calls - it is what they get paid for.  If it is just a matter of slavishly following the rules, there are a few posters upthread who are clearly ideally suited to be a CO - and one who takes no risk, and could safely command from inside their office without once talking to his or her troops, or listening to the counsel of peers and subordinates, or considering the state or culture of the unit he or she served.

I have been a boss a few times in my career.  Along the way I have been (once) the benefactor of and (frequently) the granter of some form of buckshee leave.  In every case, I made a command judgement of what would best benefit both the member and the unit.  And each case, I simply defined the place of work for the individual.  I happily stand by each and every one of those cases, and would do so in any forum: social, administrative or legal.  I simply did what I was paid to do, which was to make decisions guided by the principle of prioritizing my decisions based on a hierarchy of mission, man, and self.

My 2 cents


----------



## GAP (14 Dec 2016)

Once again confirming that "Common Sense is not that Common"......thank you


----------



## Pusser (14 Dec 2016)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Wow.  Just wow.
> 
> Leave Policy is just that - policy.  It is not a law.  Policy is intended to provide guidance to Commanders.  Commanders are expected to make judgements and decisions, guided by that policy.  Note that I said guided.
> 
> ...



Except that the "law" often says, " follow the policy."  In other words, the policy is a lawful command and not following it is disobedience of a lawful command, which is to break a pretty serious law.

Having said that, I agree that COs need to exercise their discretion and do the thing that best supports their personnel.  I'm not above stretching regulations, but I hope then when doing so I ensure that there is no long-term ramification that will bite the member later.  I also take care to ensure that what I'm doing is within the spirit and intent of the policy.  I too have granted buckshee leave from time to time, without guilt or remorse.  Sadly though, I've also seen folks so dogmatically adhere to what they *think* a policy statement says, that they actually violate its intent.  That's very frustrating.  However, when a policy exists that actually achieves the aim, it's simply stupid not to follow it.  In this particular discussion we are talking about granting an inappropriate form of leave (i.e. Compassionate) that is neither appropriate, nor intended for the circumstances because it is apparently easier than granting the form of leave (i.e. PATA) that is both appropriate and intended for this purpose?


----------



## ballz (14 Dec 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> No one is suggesting that Compassionate Leave should never be granted.  We are saying that it should only be granted for those situations for which it was designed.





			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> At least, that's what thought the other extreme end was. Two weeks off for the birth of your child? Maybe if there are some extenuating circumstances, like complications risking the health of the wife or child; but, a blanket "having a kid? Have two weeks off!"? It just feels like you're throwing the entire leave manual in the garbage and rejecting the whole idea of efficient management and personnel accountability.



As I said already, it's not compassionate leave. I think a CO using discretion to do what's good for the member, the unit, and the taxpayers, is exactly within the spirit of the regs and his duties.



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Injured on duty, while AWOL or injured on leave will result in different benefits or have they changed the rules in the last year.



If it were to happen, I guarantee it would be found that the member was injured while on leave. Not while AWOL (I'd go to jail myself before I'd see that happen) and not while on duty.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> In every case, I made a command judgement of what would best benefit both the member and the unit.  And each case, I simply defined the place of work for the individual.  I happily stand by each and every one of those cases, and would do so in any forum: social, administrative or legal.



Exactly. The CO is a grown up and can answer to his decisions.


----------



## Journeyman (15 Dec 2016)

There are leaders and there are managers; very rarely do the troops have trouble distinguishing the two.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> There are leaders and there are managers; very rarely do the troops have trouble distinguishing the two.



Except the troops, and apparently people on here, don't always realize that you need both. I've met fellow officers who were great, inspiring "leaders", but who couldn't manage time, money or effort.


----------



## Journeyman (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Except the troops, and apparently people on here, don't always realize that you need both.


Whereas I suspect that most people on here understand and accept the need for both..... and their place.  A battalion Adjutant is a critical advisor who, if competent, is respected notwithstanding not being in a leadership position. 


Regrettably, many of us see too many of the risk-averse chair-warmers running the show 

.....and growing HQ positions for more of their ilk

.....and (while being repetitive) distracting the masses from the growing cluster-f with bread and circuses badge and uniform changes.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Whereas I suspect that most people on here understand and accept the need for both..... and their place.  A battalion Adjutant is a critical advisor who, if competent, is respected notwithstanding not being in a leadership position.
> 
> 
> Regrettably, many of us see too many of the risk-averse chair-warmers running the show
> ...



There's risk averse and then there's reckless. Commanding Officers do not have carte blanche to run their units as they see fit, with complete disregard for rules and regulations. Why do you think they limit Short Days to 2 per month? Do I think it's bad to dish out a few extra days if the situation warrants it? No. Do I think it's wrong to have a blanket policy of giving two weeks of unaccountable leave? Yes.


----------



## ballz (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Except the troops, and apparently people on here, don't always realize that you need both. I've met fellow officers who were great, inspiring "leaders", but who couldn't manage time, money or effort.



I would like to see the argument that supports the assertion that this SOP is not managing time, money, or effort. It is, in my opinion, doing a much better job of managing those three things for everyone involved.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Except the troops, and apparently people on here, don't always realize that you need both. I've met fellow officers who were great, inspiring "leaders", but who couldn't manage time, money or effort.



Good leaders hire great managers


----------



## CountDC (15 Dec 2016)

and on the other side of the coin.........

A few months ago I had a chance to visit the Toronto MIR for sick parade and was surprised to find they have a policy that if you don't go there within the first 48 hours it is deemed a non-emergent(??) and you have to book an appointment if you want to see someone.  next appointment was 2 weeks later so didn't happen.  

The problem I see here is the CO has the authority per the leave manual to authorize 2 days sick leave but if he does that and it is something more severe you have to make an appointment.  The MIR policy basically takes away the CO's ability to grant the 2 days sick leave.  I was also told in the past that health services liked the 2 days as it kept a lot of contagious people home instead of out spreading things around.

Of course you could go in and lie about how long you have been sick but then you may not get the proper treatment.  Only a day, ok we will try this for 3 days and see what happens.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

CountDC said:
			
		

> and on the other side of the coin.........
> 
> A few months ago I had a chance to visit the Toronto MIR for sick parade and was surprised to find they have a policy that if you don't go there within the first 48 hours it is deemed a non-emergent(??) and you have to book an appointment if you want to see someone.  next appointment was 2 weeks later so didn't happen.
> 
> ...



You're right this makes no sense. I have the exact opposite policy at my work. If you're sick, I send you home for up to 2 days. If at the end of day 2 you think you need to be away from work for longer, then I arrange transportation to the MIR, because only they can grant further sick leave.


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> There's risk averse and then there's reckless. Commanding Officers do not have carte blanche to run their units as they see fit, with complete disregard for rules and regulations. Why do you think they limit Short Days to 2 per month? Do I think it's bad to dish out a few extra days if the situation warrants it? No. Do I think it's wrong to have a blanket policy of giving two weeks of unaccountable leave? Yes.



I am just curious to know what you consider unacceptable risk and what its impacts would be for a CO to authorize leave perhaps outside the scope of the leave manual or re-defining a member's workplace?


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I am just curious to know what you consider unacceptable risk and what its impacts would be for a CO to authorize leave perhaps outside the scope of the leave manual or re-defining a member's workplace?



I can't draw the line for you; I only know that, IMO, the 2-week parental leave policy crosses it. Potential impacts? I'm really REALLY bad at articulating the nuances of organizational leadership styles, but I'll do my best: ...it would feel wrong? See, I told you I'm bad at articulating... 

Other potential impacts:
It could negatively impact the credibility of rules and regulations;
It could negatively impact unit accountability;
And maybe someone else can speak to the implications of injury while on unaccounted leave;
Something;
Something;
Just feels wrong. Ya feel?


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> It could negatively impact the credibility of rules and regulations;



I don't think I've ever heard of a young troop ripping apart the Leave Policy after getting some compassionate leave due to the birth of their child and say "what else can I get away with". The CO grants some compassionate. Young troop tries to take advantage and do something else. CO says no. Chaos doesn't ensue. The ultimate authority in the unit is the CO. Does this young troop now file a redress of grievance with their sole justification as "The CO gave me compassionate once contrary to the leave policy, so I should get to do this"? Absolutely not.


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> It could negatively impact the credibility of rules and regulations;



How so?



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> It could negatively impact unit accountability;



Really?  How so?



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> And maybe someone else can speak to the implications of injury while on unaccounted leave;



We are in Canada.  Free healthcare is guaranteed under the Canada Health Act, 1984.



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Just feels wrong. Ya feel?



Ever asked yourself why it feels wrong?  

These are pretty weak arguments.  I believe any risk associated with granting time off to personnel would be heavily mitigated by how we select our COs.  In the end, the COs more than likely have the interest of both the CF and the members at heart and some deviations from policies allows for a more effective fighting force. We trust them with literrally life and death decisions but cannot trust them with granting days off to their pers??

To me, this is leadership vs management (or bean counting).


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (15 Dec 2016)

Looking at my  Charter of Rights and Freedom now ...   ...   ...  No! Don't see it anywhere! Sorry! No free healthcare guaranteed anywhere in it. But you can get your Federal services in French anywhere in Canada.  [Xp


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Dec 2016)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Looking at my  Charter of Rights and Freedom now ...   ...   ...  No! Don't see it anywhere! Sorry! No free healthcare guaranteed anywhere in it. But you can get your Federal services in French anywhere in Canada.  [Xp



Canada Health act.  Post edited.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> These are pretty weak arguments.  I believe any risk associated with granting time off to personnel would be heavily mitigated by how we select our COs.  In the end, the COs more than likely have the interest of both the CF and the members at heart and some deviations from policies allows for a more effective fighting force. To me, this is leadership vs management (or bean counting).



You know what? You've really changed my mind. 

We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:

1. I'm going to recommend that everyone get an additional week of leave in the summer, to help recharge and refresh;
2. I'm going to recommend that everyone with children get an extra week of leave for March break;
3. Everyone who doesn't have kids can take an extra 5 days off whenever they please, just to be fair;
4. From May to October, dress will be PT gear, 24/7;
5. The rest of the year, running shoes will be acceptable alternates to sea boots;
6. During the summer, work won't start until 0900 and will end at 1500;
7. All year round, lunch will be 2 hrs long, so that we can play ball hockey, and still have time to eat;
8. You can call-in sick for up to 2 weeks without being forced to go to the MIR.


Man, things are going to be so awesome around here thanks to my CO's prerogative!


----------



## SupersonicMax (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> You know what? You've really changed my mind.
> 
> We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:
> 
> ...



Let's say all you said happenned without any repercussion on work quantity and quality and readiness, why should anybody care?

I do things that would really piss you off.  I tell people working for me that as long as their work is complete and well done, they can be at home, but reacheable.  It means some days, they work a lot less than 8 hours a day and even some days they don't come into work (I ask them to tell me ahead of time if they won't show up at all).  Their part of the bargain is to do their job well and not to moan and whine when I ask them to work weekends or long hours if we need them to.  Overall, it works in their favor (time wise) but the organization benefits from increased efficiency and increased morale.


----------



## PMedMoe (15 Dec 2016)

Rewarding people for work is one thing, giving people compassionate leave for the birth of a child is quite another.  It's not like it was a surprise; they've had almost nine months to plan for it.  If the mother and/or child has medical issues, fine....but "Oh hey, you successfully added to the population, have some buckshee days off"? No....just, no.


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2016)

Surprised there are so many differences of opinion. 

I worked for a non-military employer. It was pretty simple, "Leave for Birth of Child: An employee shall be granted four (4) days off with pay for the birth of his child." 

There was no need for discussion.


----------



## ballz (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> You know what? You've really changed my mind.
> 
> We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:
> 
> ...



We did some of those things, maybe not to the extent you are mentioning, and it worked, it worked well, and when the next level up came to visit, we didn't hide it because there was nothing to hide. 

We spend a lot more time in PT kit if there is less work to be done. If you're doing PT 2x a day, and have no reason to change into combats (aka appointments, dirty work, meetings, etc) from 1000 (start of work) until your next session (1200 for most that do two-a-days), why the hell would you change into combats? 

We might do a longer run or PT session in the morning than the standard one hour. 

We do take longer lunches so that we can play sports and eat (our grappling club starts at 11:30 each day... 45-60 minutes to grapple, 30-45 minutes to eat). God forbid we take an extra half hour "off" so that we can do an extra 45-60 minutes of martial arts each day at an infantry unit! 

We do get some days after missing weekends and stat holidays because we are in the field that probably don't fit within the leave manual. You know what that's called? Managing pers tempo.

And not only does all of this make perfectly good sense, it is in line with the way smart companies in the private sector are "managing" their personnel. Flexible work hours, able to use OT for extra days off, I know a ton of accounting firms relax the office hours during "off-season" and just make sure that they've always got someone in the office at all times during normal hours, but not all employees are expected to be there all the time if they've got nothing to do.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> You know what? You've really changed my mind.
> 
> We have an interesting training year at naval reserve divisions, where the summer is really dead and the rest of the year is really busy, so I'm going to write a memo recommending a few changes:
> 
> ...



Wait, the Navy doesn't do that already?


----------



## armyvern (15 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I don't think I've ever heard of a young troop ripping apart the Leave Policy after getting some compassionate leave due to the birth of their child and say "what else can I get away with". The CO grants some compassionate. Young troop tries to take advantage and do something else. CO says no. Chaos doesn't ensue. The ultimate authority in the unit is the CO. Does this young troop now file a redress of grievance with their sole justification as "The CO gave me compassionate once contrary to the leave policy, so I should get to do this"? Absolutely not.



Here you go:

I am a female member of the CAF ...

Why, when I have a kid are you making me take MATA / PATA and I'm not getting paid my full salary - I have to collect pogie, I have to do shit tonnes of paperwork too ...


Yet you allow a man, my husband in the military, to take compassionate leave instead of PATA and keep getting fully paid for the EXACT same kid? ...


See how that works?

When are we female service members who are actually HAVING/BIRTHING the kids going to start getting compassionate leave like the men do when kids are born so that we can keep getting fully paid too and "avoid all the paperwork and the collection of only a partial salary??"

MATA and PATA exist for a reason.  Compassionate falls into the complications during childbirth, stillborn etc?  NOW, there's compassionate circumstances.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Dec 2016)

At no point did I ever suggest a women not be allowed to take compassionate leave instead of MATA. I only used PATA as an example because it's what I had direct experience with. There's no reason why a woman shouldn't be able to take 2 weeks compassionate and come back to work if they so choose.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> We spend a lot more time in PT kit if there is less work to be done. If you're doing PT 2x a day, and have no reason to change into combats (aka appointments, dirty work, meetings, etc) from 1000 (start of work) until your next session (1200 for most that do two-a-days), why the hell would you change into combats?



What's a two-a-day?


----------



## Bzzliteyr (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> What's a two-a-day?



Two PT sessions a day. The infantry don't have that much to do.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Two PT sessions a day. The infantry don't have that much to do.



That explains so much of this thread.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Dec 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> That explains so much of this thread.



I didn't know we were making broad generalizations. If we were, I'd suggest RCN risk adverse culture and strict adherence to the letter of every policy document is why they're hemorrhaging sailors. But we're not doing that.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I didn't know we were making broad generalizations. If we were, I'd suggest RCN risk adverse culture and strict adherence to the letter of every policy document is why they're hemorrhaging sailors. But we're not doing that.



No no no; it's why we're the senior service  .


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2016)

op:


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

I haven't checked yet,  and maybe Mario you could with your super human search skills,  but I wonder how many of the people in this thread who don't see it as such a big deal to give lots of leave (and other relaxations)  counter to regulations are the same ones who in the PT thread defend strongly that everyone should be doing an hour of PT a day because it's in the CDS's Guidance to COs.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Dec 2016)

Correlation =/= causation. I don't need a university degree to figure that out.


----------



## Lumber (15 Dec 2016)

In the quiet words of the virgin mary.... come again?


----------



## armyvern (15 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> At no point did I ever suggest a women not be allowed to take compassionate leave instead of MATA. I only used PATA as an example because it's what I had direct experience with. There's no reason why a woman shouldn't be able to take 2 weeks compassionate and come back to work if they so choose.



Only it doesn't work that way.  We must take MATA (as that is what it's intended for), and if I only want 2 weeks, then I need to have a doctor sign off saying that I'm good to go to return to work _*after I have the kid*_.  Note:  I'm already on MATA leave by the time I have the kid for the doc to sign off.  Compassionate is not an option as that is what MATA is for - regardless of whether I only want two weeks or not.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Dec 2016)

So you have an issue with the medical system, not the compassionate leave policy. I wasn't aware on how that worked, as my spouse was not employed, but you came off firing like I made some sort of misogynistic comments here on only speaking to PATA.


----------



## armyvern (15 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So you have an issue with the medical system, not the compassionate leave policy. I wasn't aware on how that worked, as my spouse was not employed, but you came off firing like I made some sort of misogynistic comments here on only speaking to PATA.



No it's got ZERO to do with the medical system.
Else we women would be on the already existing medical/sick leave vice Maternity Leave now wouldn't we?  But, we aren't SICK.

MATA = Intended for Maternity; and
PATA = Intended for Parental Leave taken by either/both parents as time to "bond" with their child.

Sick Leave = granted to a woman who, for example, ends up having child by emergency C Section - an actual medical complication (childbirth is not) at which time her spouse, for example, could rightfully also call upon his Chain of Command to grant "Compassionate Leave".  Stillbirth?  It's Compassionate Leave in that circumstance for both.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Dec 2016)

If its not medical, why is a doctor's note the only way to return to work early?


----------



## armyvern (15 Dec 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If its not medical, why is a doctor's note the only way to return to work early?



Because a bunch of people decided that MATA was intended for Maternity (women having kids) and, later, that PATA was intended for parents (dads or moms) as Parental leave to "bond" with children resulting from that maternity (or adoption process etc).   And, somehow, a group of people also decided that a docs note was required to start the paperwork process to RTW early from MATA.  It sure wasn't me.  The paperwork was a pain in the ass.

I'll eat my own fucking shoes if one CO comes on here and posts that he'd grant me 2 weeks compassionate to have my child and wouldn't make me go through the MATA/PATA process.



Edited to add:  I want to make it clear that I have zero issues with a CO granting a couple days compassionate/short to a member who does not want to take advantage of PATA to bond with his child (although, I think men SHOULD take advantage of as much PATA leave as they can).  A couple days. 

Beyond a couple days, and into extended - a couple weeks? - then that's the realm of PATA.  Female military members have same amount of paperwork to do, a two week waiting period for their pogie to kick in etc ... unless, of course, we want to start giving all military women a couple weeks compassionate leave at full pay when they have kids too.  

My point is:  even IF a female military member comes back after two weeks with the docs sign-off, they still didn't get paid their full salary while they were gone for the "two-week bonding experience" like the military partner would be while on compassionate.  See the conflict there?   That's why we have guidelines for leave - and leave types that should be, barring the exceptions as decided by Commanding Officers, utilized as intended.  The exception, should also, NOT be the rule.


----------



## the 48th regulator (16 Dec 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> We did some of those things, maybe not to the extent you are mentioning, and it worked, it worked well, and when the next level up came to visit, we didn't hide it because there was nothing to hide.
> 
> We spend a lot more time in PT kit if there is less work to be done. If you're doing PT 2x a day, and have no reason to change into combats (aka appointments, dirty work, meetings, etc) from 1000 (start of work) until your next session (1200 for most that do two-a-days), why the hell would you change into combats?
> 
> ...



Booom!!   Well Said!

Tess


----------



## armyvern (16 Dec 2016)

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Booom!!   Well Said!
> 
> Tess



Agreed.

Was the norm in most Units that I've been at.  "If you have nothing to do, don't do it here".  Really the bosses call as the tempo allows for.  And, it may very well differ within the Unit itself too ---- watched the signallers leave early/return late from lunch and have early 1500hrs dismissals when tempo allowed for it many times while the RQ shop worked as we had "stuff" to do.  'Tis the way it is.

Oh, and when I was serving with the RCN ... Friday afternoon sliders were normal SOP. May still be that way, maybe not, but I suspect the Old Man in that world also makes the call as tempo allows for despite the protestations otherwise from some on here - just like in the Army and RCAF.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Dec 2016)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Oh, and when I was serving with the RCN ... Friday afternoon sliders were normal SOP. May still be that way, maybe not, but I suspect the Old Man in that world also makes the call as tempo allows for despite the protestations otherwise from some on here - just like in the Army and RCAF.



Sadly sliders are strictly no more, you can thank FMF for that...


----------



## ballz (16 Dec 2016)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'll eat my own ******* shoes if one CO comes on here and posts that he'd grant me 2 weeks compassionate to have my child and wouldn't make me go through the MATA/PATA process.



I'll respond to this first because it is an important point and if there is something inherently sexist about what our unit is doing I would like to discover that and raise the issue to see how to solve it.

Now, I don't understand anything about childbirth, and because I'm in an infantry unit in 4 years I have literally had one female subordinate (direct subordinate I mean) and she was coming back off MATA/PATA so this never came up. But, I am actually 100% sure that if a female in our Battalion said to their CoC "Sir, this MATA/PATA stuff is a dogs breakfast, I'd really like to take advantage of the *Battalion Leave Plan for Parents* and come back to work 2 weeks after the birth of my child" they would most definitely be granted the exact same benefit. If there isn't some kind of weird medical administrative thing that would roadblock this, and its just a matter of us not doing the MATA/PATA paperwork and letting you stay home for 2 weeks, I 100% guarantee we would do it.

And if we couldn't, I promise I would raise the point that "Sir, we do this for every man in the Battalion. If we can't do it for the women, we need to figure something else out." But, like I said, I have not experienced, nor has anyone that I know of, having a female member request the program we offer.

*Fictitious name* 



			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Two PT sessions a day. The infantry don't have that much to do.



Of course, I knew my post would be followed by the standard gripes about the infantry having nothing to do but PT.

I'm not sure how letting someone do their paperwork in PT kit from 1000-1200, so they have more time to get a second PT session in while still accomplishing their tasks, is in anyway indicative of having nothing to do. Yes, we value that person's dedication to physical fitness and support them by not having them waste time changing and showering twice a day (just to please a few close-minded people), to enable them to accomplish more PT while still being able to do their job. Whoop-di-diddly-do.

If the grass is so green on this side, why don't you cross the fence and see how much work we have to do?



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> I haven't checked yet,  and maybe Mario you could with your super human search skills,  but I wonder how many of the people in this thread who don't see it as such a big deal to give lots of leave (and other relaxations)  counter to regulations are the same ones who in the PT thread defend strongly that everyone should be doing an hour of PT a day because it's in the CDS's Guidance to COs.



I make a big deal about everyone doing PT because it stops our force from being embarrassingly overweight and ineffective. I'd like to think we wouldn't need the CDS to have to tell us to do an hour of PT a day because we've got leaders that already ensuring their troops are fit to fight. Perhaps you should use some of those "management" skills you are preaching about if the CDS's guidance is causing you heartache trying to find the time for your subordinates.


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## armyvern (16 Dec 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> I make a big deal about everyone doing PT because it stops our force from being embarrassingly overweight and ineffective. I'd like to think we wouldn't need the CDS to have to tell us to do an hour of PT a day because we've got leaders that already ensuring their troops are fit to fight. Perhaps you should use some of those "management" skills you are preaching about if the CDS's guidance is causing you heartache trying to find the time for your subordinates.



You should stop.

Just as I watch the early departures/late returns from lunch, 2 X per day PT, early dismissals from the workplace occur within some of the units that I'm posted to and understand that I am watching them depart because I am a support trade and they are not ...  Remember that WE are busy working and we don't have quite as much time on our hands during working hours as you do because we are busy getting shit done to support you.

Perhaps you should notice that those support trades are working, are red, aren't leaving early/late or dismissing when you guys are because we are working our asses off to support your asses.  We are working to support you when we're not at PT ... not sitting on our asses.

It is also my experience that these same pers above are the very first ones, and the loudest ones, to bitch and complain the instant a supporter isn't available to support them.  It's why my troops from clothing stores never got to fully enjoy their Men's Christmas Dinner etc etc ... because the infantry unit on base bitched because clothing was shut down for the day and they couldn't get served, so ever-after half the troops had to stay and "work" to support you.  Talk about "troop morale".   :


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## Bzzliteyr (16 Dec 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Of course, I knew my post would be followed by the standard gripes about the infantry having nothing to do but PT



Oops, you're right. I forgot to mention card playing.


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## Infanteer (16 Dec 2016)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You should stop.



You are turning this into a "combat arms:support trades" thing when nothing in his comments implied this.


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## Infanteer (16 Dec 2016)

This thread is pretty sad.  I've served with a lot of great COs and Commanders, and none of them would need 8 pages of babble to wrestle with these situations.  As a leader, look at policy and use common sense and discretion to make the best decision possible on a case by case basis.  Consider mission, then your men and women, then yourself.

Female soldier is pregnant and wants doesn't want to take a financial hit with MATA leave to have baby.  Send her to the doc to get the required medical leave to have her baby.  Throw her some short leave if you want, because you can.

Male soldier's wife has a cesarean and can't look after the other kids for a week or so while she is recovering.  Give him some compassionate leave.

I recommended to my CO (and was supported) in sending a soldier home a week early from Afghanistan to see his first child born.  If she was due half-way through the tour, he would have enjoyed the pictures and emails.  

Each case has its own circumstances and context.  CO's get paid the big bucks to weigh them and make the best decision.


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## Infanteer (16 Dec 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Two PT sessions a day. The infantry don't have that much to do.



An infantry battalion did a count on how many days in a year its soldiers spent sleeping away from their homes; this generally implied training or courses and in most cases meant sleeping on the ground under the stars.  The average was about 2-3 months, with some MCpls and Sergeants spending 150-170 days of the year away from their home.  This was during a year without high readiness training or operational deployments.

You're talking out of your a$$.


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## Bzzliteyr (16 Dec 2016)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> An infantry battalion did a count on how many days in a year its soldiers spent sleeping away from their homes; this generally implied training or courses and in most cases meant sleeping on the ground under the stars.  The average was about 2-3 months, with some MCpls and Sergeants spending 150-170 days of the year away from their home.  This was during a year without high readiness training or operational deployments.
> 
> You're talking out of your a$$.



Guys, guys. You can't feed the trolls. Don't make it easy for us. Since when have the infantry ever taken a ribbing so seriously?


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## Infanteer (16 Dec 2016)

Sorry, on this thread, I can't tell who's being serious.


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## PuckChaser (16 Dec 2016)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> An infantry battalion did a count on how many days in a year its soldiers spent sleeping away from their homes; this generally implied training or courses and in most cases meant sleeping on the ground under the stars.  The average was about 2-3 months, with some MCpls and Sergeants spending 150-170 days of the year away from their home.  This was during a year without high readiness training or operational deployments.
> 
> You're talking out of your a$$.



I'd also suggest that physical fitness is a part of the job description of someone in the Combat Arms, and no different than a signaller taking his section outside for antenna construction refresher for that same amount of time.


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## armyvern (16 Dec 2016)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Each case has its own circumstances and context.  CO's get paid the big bucks to weigh them and make the best decision.



Yep; that's why they are COs.


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