# Naval Ensign



## Sub_Guy

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/05/02/ns-navy-flag-ensign.html

After 48 years, the Royal Canadian Navy will be flying a new flag.

The new ensign will debut on May 5, marking the anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic, a time when the navy and Canadians salute the sacrifices of sailors during the Second World War.

Since 1965, the Canadian maple leaf flag has flown off the stern of Canadian warships. The new design harkens back to the wartime navy. Back then, the naval ensign had a British flag in the upper corner on an all-white background.

In a reversal, the flag known as the Naval Jack will become the new Canadian naval ensign and the maple leaf design will become the new Naval Jack.

The new naval ensign incorporates the national flag in the upper left hand corner and the naval badge.

The navy said the switch doesn't mean they’ll scrap the maple leaf flag. Previously the ensign flag was displayed on the bow of Canadian warships, a less prominent position in navy protocol.

The new ensign will fly on 34 Canadian warships. The first ship to show it will be HMCS Toronto, now serving in the Persian Gulf.


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## Pat in Halifax

I heard about this but couldn't find anything on it. Interesting.

34 warships-Are we hiding one somewhere???


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## Edward Campbell

Looks fine:


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## jollyjacktar

Will look strange at first until we become accustomed to it again.  It's not like we're re-inventing the wheel or anything, just retuning to what was once again.


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## GAP

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So here is the new "white ensign" - distinctively Canada and well grounded historically - as it was when it was the Naval Jack.
> 
> And all at no cost, too. BZ, Navy!



Looks good, distinctive....


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## Fishbone Jones

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So here is the new "white ensign" - distinctively Canada and well grounded historically - as it was when it was the Naval Jack.
> 
> And all at no cost, too. BZ, Navy!



Couldn't they find a ship without a stove in bow, for the picture?  ;D


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## stokerwes

I really think that manhours and resources could be used better elsewhere. Why not go back to hammocks and hard tack too?


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## GAP

Steam is good......though, the wood gets kinda damp....


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## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Couldn't they find a ship without a stove in bow, for the picture?  ;D



PR Fail.    ;D


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Finally, the National flag is back at the place of honour on a ship: The Jackstaff.

And switching the Ol' Jack to become the Ensign is exactly what I proposed in these pages two years ago when the curl was reintroduced - Either someone in Ottawa is reading these pages or great minds think alike  .

The next question now: Will the CFAV's switch theirs too, so they now fly the Canadian Blue Ensign ?


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## Pat in Halifax

...And 130 deg Boiler Rooms, asbestos dust (Yumm!) and of course 'Tiller Flats' justice!!!
I am still wondering why the majority of us were likely informed of this through the press?


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/05/02/ns-navy-flag-ensign.html
> 
> After 48 years, the Royal Canadian Navy will be flying a new flag.
> 
> The new ensign will debut on May 5, marking the anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic, a time when the navy and Canadians salute the sacrifices of sailors during the Second World War.
> 
> Since 1965, the Canadian maple leaf flag has flown off the stern of Canadian warships. The new design harkens back to the wartime navy. Back then, the naval ensign had a British flag in the upper corner on an all-white background.
> 
> In a reversal, the flag known as the Naval Jack will become the new Canadian naval ensign and the maple leaf design will become the new Naval Jack.
> 
> The new naval ensign incorporates the national flag in the upper left hand corner and the naval badge.
> 
> The navy said the switch doesn't mean they’ll scrap the maple leaf flag. Previously the ensign flag was displayed on the bow of Canadian warships, a less prominent position in navy protocol.
> 
> The new ensign will fly on 34 Canadian warships. The first ship to show it will be HMCS Toronto, now serving in the Persian Gulf.



That's funny. I was always taught by the old Chiefs at comm school that in Commonwealth navies, the Jack was the place of honour onboard.


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## jollyjacktar

stokerwes said:
			
		

> I really think that manhours and resources could be used better elsewhere. Why not go back to hammocks and hard tack too?


A hammock couldn't be worse than our new mattresses.   Would probably sleep much better.


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## Colin Parkinson

yum, hard tack, not to mention the free protein that comes with them, which will then surely lead to this discussion in the wardroom..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNL0KfD0nts


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## aratofsomesort

Hell with hardtack.. bring back the TOT!


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## NavalMoose

I can't see there being too much cost to this since it's essentially just a matter of swapping ends where the flags go on the ships


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## bLUE fOX

Here here!





(EDIT to add: I meant this in response to the tot. I apparently wasn't fast enough)


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## George Wallace

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> I can't see there being too much cost to this since it's essentially just a matter of swapping ends where the flags go on the ships



You forgot all the bureaucratic man-hours spent on the paperwork that is involved in amending publications, orders, etc.; not to mention the translation of said orders and publications prior to reprinting them.   >


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## jollyjacktar

Just had hands fall down after lunch.  The old man said (paraphrase) there's more corrections coming with the intent of ridding any semblance of the what was done at unification.  I'm not too sure what else needs to be done to bring the wheel back around once more, he didn't elaborate further.  Will have to wait and see.


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## MARS

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> I can't see there being too much cost to this since it's essentially just a matter of swapping ends where the flags go on the ships



To be fair, there are some minor costs associated with this.  The one I am aware of was the requirement to procure new ensigns for our small boats.  But again, I think that was, relatively speaking, a minor cost


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## Privateer

I suppose that the frigates and destroyers will need new "battle ensigns", to the extent that those are carried.


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## Ex-Dragoon

God help the first couple of duty watches onboard for Colours and Sunset....for the first few I can see flags being hoisted, taken down and 1 person running forward and the other to the quarterdeck to swap out.


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## winnipegoo7

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I heard about this but couldn't find anything on it. Interesting.
> 
> 34 warships-Are we hiding one somewhere???



3 x Destroyers
12 x Frigates
12 x MCDVs
4 x Submarines
2 x AORs
1 x HMCS ORIOLE

= 34


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## MARS

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> God help the first couple of duty watches onboard for Colours and Sunset....for the first few I can see flags being hoisted, taken down and 1 person running forward and the other to the quarterdeck to swap out.



Exactly! I can't wait for some hapless OOD to come back off leave or something, having missed the announcement and think that his POOD is trying to mess with him.

 The Deputy Fleet Commander sent an email to all of his COs directing us to personally ensure there are NO screw ups, for Sunday at least.


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## cupper

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Finally, the National flag is back at the place of honour on a ship: The Jackstaff.
> 
> And switching the Ol' Jack to become the Ensign is exactly what I proposed in these pages two years ago when the curl was reintroduced - Either someone in Ottawa is reading these pages or great minds think alike  .
> 
> The next question now: Will the CFAV's switch theirs too, so they now fly the Canadian Blue Ensign ?



Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Let's take some time out here to absorb the change. Don't want to move too fast or it will just send you Navy types into a fantail spin. ;D


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## kratz

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> The next question now: Will the CFAV's switch theirs too, so they now fly the Canadian Blue Ensign ?



Just had an RCN power point from the Buffer. The answer is no, the CFAVs will fly the new Ensign as well.


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## kratz

Just had an RCN power point from the Buffer. Here is the cut and past from it:



> Who will be authorized to fly the
> Canadian Naval Ensign?
> 
> •	All 33 c ommissioned warships of the RCN
> •	HMCS Oriole
> •	All eight Orca-class Patrol Craft Training (PCT) vessels
> •	All Diving Tenders and TSRVs;
> •	All 24 NavalReserve Divisions; and
> •	All small boats whenever working away from the ship whether in domestic or international waters


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## Pat in Halifax

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> 3 x Destroyers
> 12 x Frigates
> 12 x MCDVs
> 4 x Submarines
> 2 x AORs
> 1 x HMCS ORIOLE
> 
> = 34



Oriole<>Warship; not buying it.
Finally got some word officially this afternoon.


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## Fishbone Jones

So do the Reserves fly them at their stone frigates or from their RHIBs?

If at the building, is there a fore and aft? Or do they just put everything on poles in the front? I know ours here has a quarterdeck but that's all I'm aware of regarding ship stations.


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## JorgSlice

recceguy said:
			
		

> So do the Reserves fly them at their stone frigates or from their RHIBs?
> 
> If at the building, is there a fore and aft? Or do they just put everything on poles in the front? I know ours here has a quarterdeck but that's all I'm aware of regarding ship stations.



HMCS Tecumseh has a mast (?) outside and also one inside on the parade deck where they fly all of the flags, ensigns, and colours.


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## Occam

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> HMCS Tecumseh has a mast (?) outside and also one inside on the parade deck where they fly all of the flags, ensigns, and colours.



I'm sure a bunting tosser will be quick to correct me if I'm wrong, but the mast has several positions available for flying flags.  There's an order of precedence to the positions; if my memory hasn't failed me of doing colours/sunset on the parade square of Stadacona (when there actually was a parade square and not a parking lot), it went something like this:

1.  Gaff (the pole sticking out of the front of the mast, shown in the picture flying the Canadian flag)
2.  Outermost starboard halyard (when viewed from behind the mast; gaff pointing away from you)
3.  Outermost port halyard
4.  Next inboard starboard halyard
5.  Next inboard port halyard
6.  and so on...

Again, if memory hasn't failed me, we flew the Canadian Ensign, Naval Jack, and MARCOM flag, in that order of precedence.  I don't know if the recent order reverses the positions of the Canadian Ensign and Naval Jack, but that's my guess.


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## Occam

recceguy said:
			
		

> Couldn't they find a ship without a stove in bow, for the picture?  ;D



They had to use an older photo of a CPF; it's unlikely they'd find one in harbour these days, with much of the HALIFAX class either preparing for refit, in the midst of refit, or conducting post refit work and trials.  The ones not yet participating in FELEX haven't stood still long enough to get a picture. 

And I know you're joking, but don't knock the anchor stowage position on the CPFs; it might _look like_ someone took a chunk out of the bow, but it put an end to (most of) the lame "anchor pocket door" jokes from the days of the steamers.


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## Pat in Halifax

recceguy, your question was answered two posts before you posed it - probably a timing thing on posting.
Occam, there have been a bunch of CE guys off and on looking at the pole in front of ABlock (I currently work out of S15-I know; a stoker at CFNOS-raises the occasional eyebrow!). Whether that is to clean it up (it is in really BAD shape) or remove it, I don't know. I am not sure when that stopped actually and moved to in front of S90 only.
All said, the public wont really see the difference-As you point out Occam, the precedence of the Jack and national flag (both under new names) will be reversed.


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## daftandbarmy

Occam said:
			
		

> They had to use an older photo of a CPF; it's unlikely they'd find one in harbour these days, with much of the HALIFAX class either preparing for refit, in the midst of refit, or conducting post refit work and trials.  The ones not yet participating in FELEX haven't stood still long enough to get a picture.
> 
> And I know you're joking, but don't knock the anchor stowage position on the CPFs; it might _look like_ someone took a chunk out of the bow, but it put an end to (most of) the lame "anchor pocket door" jokes from the days of the steamers.



Another difference between the Navy and the other two services who, provided with a bow like that, would have painted a red mouth with white teeth and a pair of feline type eyes around it by now. Grrrrr.....  :nod:


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## cupper

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Another difference between the Navy and the other two services who, provided with a bow like that, would have painted a red mouth with white teeth and a pair of feline type eyes around it by now. Grrrrr.....  :nod:



Only the RCAF would do that. The Army would paint the whole ship in a 3 tone camo. 

Except one regiment which would paint the whole ship white.


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## Tank Troll

cupper said:
			
		

> Only the RCAF would do that. The Army would paint the whole ship in a 3 tone camo.
> 
> Except one regiment which would paint the whole ship white.




And which regiment would that be?  :stirpot:


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## Loachman

cupper said:
			
		

> Except one regiment which would paint the whole ship white.



Only the "stone frigates".


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## Edward Campbell

And the new white ensign is "worn" (I think that's the right term) for the first time in Canadian waters/on Canadian soil by HMCS Cabot, in St John's, this morning.







I'm assuming that's the proper location ... the gaff?

Looks just fine.


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## Nfld Sapper

You in town Edward?


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## Edward Campbell

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> You in town Edward?




St. John's? No ... sadly.

I forgot to "source" the picture  :-[  ... it was posted by COMRCN, presumably it's from the navy's in house PR machine.


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## Nfld Sapper

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> St. John's? No ... sadly.
> 
> I forgot to "source" the picture  :-[  ... it was posted by COMRCN, presumably it's from the navy's in house PR machine.



Roger that Edward.....


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## Occam

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And the new white ensign is "worn" (I think that's the right term) for the first time in Canadian waters/on Canadian soil by HMCS Cabot, in St John's, this morning.
> 
> I'm assuming that's the proper location ... the gaff?
> 
> Looks just fine.



"Hoisted" I think is the term the bunting tossers use...and the reverse is "hauled down".  The gaff is definitely the highest place of honour on the mast - I'm just not sure if I reversed port/stbd in my description above.  It might be as viewed from the front of the mast, with the gaff towards you.  I'll have to dig out some of my Dad's old Seamanship manuals and take a look.

And it does look good.


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## q_1966

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms/3/3-a_eng.asp?id=936

The PR machine spelled centre incorrectly.


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## Gorgo

Privateer said:
			
		

> And... voila:
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=4762



Damn!  Called it right!

Then again, it is a simple thing to do with next to no cost at all to the taxpayers.

Except for when they have to make the big war ensigns ships love to fly when they're at seas; the types that could drape over half the flight deck of a Halifax-class ship.


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## Edward Campbell

Fred Herriot said:
			
		

> Damn!  Called it right!
> 
> Then again, it is a simple thing to do with next to no cost at all to the taxpayers.
> 
> Except for when they have to make the big war ensigns ships love to fly when they're at seas; the types that could drape over half the flight deck of a Halifax-class ship.




You mean like this?







My (vague) understanding is that warships should fly these monsters when engaging the enemy. Are there other rules, like fly it when sailing in allied flotillas? Is it captain's discretion?


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## Canadian.Trucker

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

>


How is HMCS St. John's able to be at sea without fuel?  I kid I kid.


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## jollyjacktar

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> How is HMCS St. John's able to be at sea without fuel?  I kid I kid.


Pffft, what a Pongo!  You can clearly see PRESERVER right behind her there.  Lots of fuel to be had.   :nod:


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## Pat in Halifax

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> My (vague) understanding is that warships should fly these monsters when engaging the enemy. Are there other rules, like fly it when sailing in allied flotillas? Is it captain's discretion?



I am not sure of the criteria for flying it. I know when we raced across the Atlantic following the fire on board CHI, we flew the battle ensign as we approached CHI and entered Faslane with her.


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## Canadian.Trucker

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Pffft, what a Pongo!


Don't make me slap you with your own hand!  If I'm a pongo, you're a ponti.

But my jest was in reference to the recent fuel spill that HMCS St. Johns had in Halifax harbour, just to connect the dots.


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## GR66

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> How is HMCS St. John's able to be at sea without fuel?  I kid I kid.



That's a Battle Ensign?  I thought it was a back-up sail in case of fuel loss!   >


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## MARS

A Captain can fly their Battle Ensign whenever he or she chooses, basically.  Often when undertaking high visibility events, such as sail pasts, etc.  you have to make sure you have sufficient relative wind from ahead to keep the flag as taught as possible, lest it foul your gear or your mast, which is at a minimum embarrassing.


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## Halifax Tar

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I am not sure of the criteria for flying it. I know when we raced across the Atlantic following the fire on board CHI, we flew the battle ensign as we approached CHI and entered Faslane with her.



Quick derail... We sailed together... I was TD'd to STJ for that trip...


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## jollyjacktar

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Don't make me slap you with your own hand!  If I'm a pongo, you're a ponti.
> 
> But my jest was in reference to the recent fuel spill that HMCS St. Johns had in Halifax harbour, just to connect the dots.








 ;D    yeah, I was following the dots.


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## NavalMoose

"to keep the flag as taught as possible"

Who "taught" you how to spell "taut"?...lol


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## MARS

;D damn autocorrect.  Alternately, I am a CO, I have people to spell taut for me


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## cupper

Do they blare "Ride of the Valkyries" over the PA system as well?


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## Jacky Tar

cupper said:
			
		

> Do they blare "Ride of the Valkyries" over the PA system as well?



Well, CALGARY used to play the Calgary Stampede theme during the breakaway after a RAS


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## Oldgateboatdriver

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Another difference between the Navy and the other two services who, provided with a bow like that, would have painted a red mouth with white teeth and a pair of feline type eyes around it by now. Grrrrr.....  :nod:



Couldn't resist resuscitating this thread, as I knew I had read the post above.

Daftandbarmy, do you mean like this (picture of HMS Dragon, recently commissioned):

http://www.imeche.org/images/default-source/pe-news-width-454/1365_e8b1c44ea5fc72e0a6359796967760a0_454x250.jpg


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## q_1966

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> http://www.imeche.org/images/default-source/pe-news-width-454/1365_e8b1c44ea5fc72e0a6359796967760a0_454x250.jpg



That's awesome


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