# Organizations moving away from Military Style Uniforms - Split fm Army Cadet



## kratz (31 Aug 2008)

Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to add to the other posts re: distancing from the military uniform mentality out there. For the past few years, St John Ambulance volunteers are asking for more everyday friendly uniforms vice the black and white style they currently use. Despite more than 125 years of service to the community and a close association with the military, people are wanting to distance themselves from the military these days.

I do not agree with SJA or the cadet movements gradually wearing away their links and history from their origins. Sadly, this is what is happening in an attempt to appease and appeal to those who object.


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2008)

I would say that this is a successfull hijack of the "Army Cadet Dress Regs updated 46-01" Thread.

It would seem that it is a contradiction of terms to say that an organization wants to get away from "Military Style" uniforms, when basically that is where the term and all "uniforms" originated.  

I wonder if any of these people have travelled and looked at similar organizations around the world.  The German Red Cross uniforms are almost identical to WW II Wehrmacht uniforms.  The Germans, as a whole, are facinated with uniforms.  Every organization in Germany seems to have a uniform.

It is not just the Germans.  Look at the British.  They have 'uniforms' for the different professions.  The suit, bowler cap, and umbrella is in a way a uniform.

Since the begining time, uniforms have been largely military in nature, used to identify members of different units, Trades, professions, etc.


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## Neill McKay (31 Aug 2008)

kratz said:
			
		

> Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to add to the other posts re: distancing from the military uniform mentality out there. For the past few years, St John Ambulance volunteers are asking for more everyday friendly uniforms vice the black and white style they currently use. Despite more than 125 years of service to the community and a close association with the military, people are wanting to distance themselves from the military these days.
> 
> I do not agree with SJA or the cadet movements gradually wearing away their links and history from their origins. Sadly, this is what is happening in an attempt to appease and appeal to those who object.



As another example, the Canadian Power and Sail Squadrons have gone away from their system of uniforms, ranks, and distinguishing flags for higher-ranking officers specifically to avoid a military appearance which the senior leadership thought might discourage new members from joining.

Regarding the cadet programme, I could think of a few factors that are tending to water down the military connection, but I can say that there is a sizeable part of the leadership that seeks to strengthen it.  How any individual unit goes will depend largely on which camp the CO is in.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> ... How any individual unit goes will depend largely on which camp the CO is in.



Which, in itself, is quite the ironic statement nowadays don't you think?? Given that the CO now actually is a "Commissioned" Officer of the CF?

Hmmmmm.


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2008)

This may be a Canadian phenomenon only, perhaps in line with the increasingly "anti-military" culture that is growing.  I don't think that it is a wide spread attitude around the globe.  Many cultures are very fascinated by 'uniforms'.

The fact that they are getting away from 'military style' uniforms, may just be a false starter.  They are just getting away from 'current' military style uniforms, and perhaps going with something that they think is less military, but still is.  Perhaps they think Star Trek style uniforms are not military?  

It really doesn't matter if they think the uniform is military based or not; as long as there is a ranking structure indicated on the uniform, it is a "structured" uniform and still basically 'military' in origins.


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## kratz (31 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ...
> It really doesn't matter if they think the uniform is military based or not; as long as there is a ranking structure indicated on the uniform, it is a "structured" uniform and still basically 'military' in origins.



I agree. Most people do not object to groups such as Scout/Girl Guide uniforms, yet they had a historical roots with the military as well.  As for the movement away from military based uniforms, in my first post, I should have stressed that SJA's 125 years *in Canada* and the feelings are from a Canadian perspective.


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## gwp (31 Aug 2008)

kratz said:
			
		

> I agree. Most people do not object to groups such as Scout/Girl Guide uniforms, yet they had a historical roots with the military as well.  As for the movement away from military based uniforms, in my first post, I should have stressed that SJ-A's 125 years *in Canada* and the feelings are from a Canadian perspective.


It must be a very small group within St. John Ambulance. There is certainly no volume to any movement away from the uniforms. The uniform is a requirement to be identified when providing community service.  It is important to that other professional first responders know where to look for the St. John volunteers. 

The standard working uniform for St. John is black cargo pants, white shirt, (black sweater) beret, or officer cap and appropriate bright yellow coloured outerwear depending upon the service with St. John First Aid.  Accoutrements include rank epaulets.The uniform is similar for adults, cadets, and crusaders.  

The dress uniform for St. John officers remains the same.  Single breasted black tunic with silver buttons and accoutrements.  The attached news letter even has a photo of the Ceremonial Cape, St. John mess dress and standard black uniform.  

http://www.sja.ca/BCYukon/PDF%20Documents/CP-R-0512-Life_Lines-E-BC.pdf

I speak as a past vice president of the the Branch Executive Council and Chair of the 125th anniversary committee.  There is no such serious discussion in the St. John organization.  I even checked today with a large group of volunteers at a major event.  

Certainly, there are occasional individuals who do not understand the requirement for a uniform and question the rank system.  Those same individuals do not understand that in an organization that requires leaders, who must react and act and direct actions that will reduce suffering and in the extreme save lives (no matter how collegial) there must be an obvious "chain of command" with indications of obvious expectations of the level of authority and experience.  In addition to First Aid Courses, the St. John Organizations runs "NCO" Courses for its cadet and adult brigade members.  There are officer qualification courses as well.  St. John Cadet/Crusader Brigade First Aid Competitions usually involve a "drill competition"  -- albeit the standard is not often "military" ... but it does what drill is supposed to do.


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## catalyst (31 Aug 2008)

kratz said:
			
		

> I agree. Most people do not object to groups such as Scout/Girl Guide uniforms, yet they had a historical roots with the military as well.  As for the movement away from military based uniforms, in my first post, I should have stressed that SJA's 125 years *in Canada* and the feelings are from a Canadian perspective.



Girl guides barely has a uniform anymore - moved away from the 'standard' old stuff (whcih was needed) to a new more casual uniform.........then moved away again. I'd be hard pressed to tell a group of girl guides from a bunch of kids on the street anymore.


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## rwgill (31 Aug 2008)

Mich, I suspect that the cost of the uniform may be a factor as well.  A simple Sparks uniform will cost parents $55 plus tax, to be worn 1-2 years.  Then add a Brownie uniform $79 plus tax, Guide uniform $60, another $60 for Pathfinders...........well the bill runs up.  Add on that nightly/monthly/yearly dues and you have a hefty price.  The current uniform (prices above) are simple t-shirts, pants and such.  Nothing like it used top be.


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## gwp (31 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Given that the CO *now* actually is a "Commissioned" Officer of the CF?


Now?   Cadet Instructors have been commissioned officers since as early as 1898 while school teachers were appointed and subsequenlty since 1909 when the Cadet Services of Canada was established almost a century ago.   
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78268/post-735828.html#new


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## catalyst (31 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> Mich, I suspect that the cost of the uniform may be a factor as well.  A simple Sparks uniform will cost parents $55 plus tax, to be worn 1-2 years.  Then add a Brownie uniform $79 plus tax, Guide uniform $60, another $60 for Pathfinders...........well the bill runs up.  Add on that nightly/monthly/yearly dues and you have a hefty price.  The current uniform (prices above) are simple t-shirts, pants and such.  Nothing like it used top be.



That was one factor (but regardless - the uniform prices were about the same - the t-shirts are expensive...but not that expensive..however anything with the GGOC logo is expensive, yikes).  Girls have lost the whole thing of 'uniform' and the whole concept which was one important part of past 'gg' programs - at one time it mirrored the cadets' importance WRT wearing a uniform. 

Anways.....back to the thread.


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## The_Falcon (31 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> It must be a very small group within St. John Ambulance. There is certainly no volume to any movement away from the uniforms. The uniform is a requirement to be identified when providing community service.  It is important to that other professional first responders know where to look for the St. John volunteers.
> 
> The standard working uniform for St. John is black cargo pants, white shirt, (black sweater) beret, or officer cap and appropriate bright yellow coloured outerwear depending upon the service with St. John First Aid.  Accoutrements include rank epaulets.The uniform is similar for adults, cadets, and crusaders.
> 
> ...



I know before I left St. John a few years, here in Ontario the Brigade (now Called community services), was looking to have a more EMS style uniform, vice the Para-Military Style.  But it had little to with any anti-military sentiment, and more of a practical one.  IE making sure the public could identify us as first-aid providers vice security guards (which is what people typically thought we were).  Same thing in scouting before I left, the move away from the traditional uniform, had more to do with cost for the members and practicallity of use.


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2008)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I know before I left St. John a few years, here in Ontario the Brigade (now Called community services), was looking to have a more EMS style uniform, vice the Para-Military Style.  But it had little to with any anti-military sentiment, and more of a practical one.  IE making sure the public could identify us as first-aid providers vice security guards (which is what people typically thought we were).  Same thing in scouting before I left, the move away from the traditional uniform, had more to do with cost for the members and practicallity of use.



I don't know.  When I was in Scouts, the only uniform articles we had were the Shirt and the hat; first the stetson, then the beret.  Pants, boots, gloves, parkas, whatever, were all personal articles of clothing suitable for whatever occasion you were partaking in.  Not much expense there.


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## NL_engineer (31 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I don't know.  When I was in Scouts, the only uniform articles we had were the Shirt and the hat; first the stetson, then the beret.  Pants, boots, gloves, parkas, whatever, were all personal articles of clothing suitable for whatever occasion you were partaking in.  Not much expense there.



Recently Scouts Canada went to a T-shirt, from the tan shirt; Basically because they let the kids decide what they wanted.  Now they are moving back to the tan shirt.



On another note they got rid of the beret, as it looked to military, and at the time Scouts Canada was positioning its self far away from the the military.


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> On another note they got rid of the beret, as it looked to military, and at the time Scouts Canada was positioning its self far away from the the military.



Should we chip in and send them a few thousand Army.ca ballcaps?     >

Mike may be able to get a Tax credit as an Advertising Writeoff.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Recently Scouts Canada went to a T-shirt, from the tan shirt; Basically because they let the kids decide what they wanted.  Now they are moving back to the tan shirt.
> 
> On another note they got rid of the beret, as it looked to military, and at the time Scouts Canada was positioning its self far away from the the military.



Actually, they never got rid of the tan shirt. Most troops just went to wearing them for "ceremonial" occasions such as Chief Scout presentations, awards, badge nights etc.

The "SC" logo t-shirt is the norm around here for regular meetings.


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## NL_engineer (31 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Actually, they never got rid of the tan shirt. Most troops just went to wearing them for "ceremonial" occasions such as Chief Scout presentations, awards, badge nights etc.
> 
> The "SC" logo t-shirt is the norm around here for regular meetings.



O I know  >

The troop I am a leader for moved back to the tan for regular meetings/formal stuff.  For a wile it was off the books and replaced with white dress shirt, blue dress pants, and a blue tie; worn with polished black dress shoes (tell me what kid wants to wear that).


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> O I know  >
> 
> The troop I am a leader for moved back to the tan for regular meetings/formal stuff.  For a wile it was off the books and replaced with white dress shirt, blue dress pants, and a blue tie; worn with polished black dress shoes (tell me what kid wants to wear that).



I don't know. I've never seen it in my 17+ years as a leader. Then again, I'm a girl - my fashion sense is just ... well ... better than that!  >


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## rwgill (31 Aug 2008)

Catalyst said:
			
		

> That was one factor (but regardless - the uniform prices were about the same - the t-shirts are expensive...but not that expensive..however anything with the GGOC logo is expensive, yikes).  Girls have lost the whole thing of 'uniform' and the whole concept which was one important part of past 'gg' programs - at one time it mirrored the cadets' importance WRT wearing a uniform.
> 
> Anways.....back to the thread.


Actually Mich.............it seems to be on topic now 

I was a Scout once and wore a beret, dark green shirt, red sash.  Thanks to my parents, who were Scout leaders, I also had the funky shorts and knee-high socks with garters.  I guess that I was a bit of a scout geek.  I remember playing sports, games and other physical activities and a dress shirt was not exactly practical.........nor were the knee high socks.


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## gwp (31 Aug 2008)

This discussion is happening in somewhat of a vacuum. These websites are useful.
St.John Ambulance
http://www.sja.ca/Canada/Pages/default.aspx
Takes a little to navigate - you can move from region to region with the drop down menu top right.

Scouts Canada
http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/AboutUs/Youthprograms/tabid/61/Default.aspx
example page Scout uniform
http://www.scouts.ca/media/documents/scoutuniformS04.pdf

Girl Guides Canada
http://www.girlguides.ca/index_eng.html

Guides uniform catalogue
http://www.girlguides.ca/default1.asp?ID=1200
http://www.girlguides.ca/media/new_site/docs/catalogue0809/Catalogue0809-guides.pdf


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## Neill McKay (1 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Which, in itself, is quite the ironic statement nowadays don't you think?? Given that the CO now actually is a "Commissioned" Officer of the CF?



Like every other branch in the CF, we have our switched-on members, average members, and members who the rest of us would rather not wear the same uniform as.  In small units where the number of candidates for appointment as CO is limited, sometimes members of the last group wind up sitting in the big chair.  Pity, but the alternative can be closure of the unit.


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## a_majoor (1 Sep 2008)

Some random observations:

The suit and tie that most men wear as business apparel is directly descended from military uniforms of the early modern period (@ 16-1700). The buttons on the sleeve of a man's suit jacket were introduced by the Prussian Army (forgot which King) to discourage recruits from wiping their noses on the sleeve.

The Scouts were founded by Baden-Powell as a paramilitary force and were actually expected to be used as scouts, messengers etc. at one time.

The St. John's Ambulance is also directly descended from a military organization: the Knights Hospitaller (also known as the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, Order of St. John, Knights of Malta, and Chevaliers of Malta), and having been founded in 1080, are by far the oldest uniformed force in this particular thread.


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## armyvern (1 Sep 2008)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Like every other branch in the CF, we have our switched-on members, average members, and members who the rest of us would rather not wear the same uniform as.  In small units where the number of candidates for appointment as CO is limited, sometimes members of the last group wind up sitting in the big chair.  Pity, but the alternative can be closure of the unit.



Absolutely agreed. My corps CO _back in the day_ also happened to be my principle in Junior High School circa 1982/3. He did recommend me as the Top Army Cadet, which I 'won" (??) & as such, I dined with Prince Andrew (who went on to marry a red-head I'll point out. ) in Sussex, NB during his Royal Visit. That was as a Cadet though. Then there was the school side of 'me'. I got posted to Gagetown upon my return from Op Apollo in Oct 2003 to stand up MASOP at this location. In 2004, when we launched Haiti, I got double hatted as the IC Clothing because their Sgt & MCpl both launched with 2RCR. While giving my very first O Group to those Clothing Stores personnel, in walked the Det Comd of the RCSU(A) Det Gagetown ... Capt P. D. ... I recognized him immediately as the CO of 2647 from 21 years before. 

He recognized me too obviously - as after I advised him he'd have to wait for us to finish up the O Gp, he stated "Hey, I know you --- I gave you the strap a couple of times in Waasis Road Junior High didn't I?" "Uh, yep says I." He gets a big grin over his face and the troops start giggling. I'm trying to think of what to say back as he walks towards my office and it hits me: "Don't worry Sir, I forgive you -- I've learned to like it since then!"

Needless, we all cracked up ... and the O Group waited. True story. Note that he picked the strap story to bring up in front of everyone over the "you got to dine with Prince Andrew" story. I have many stories. I should, one day, write a book about all my shenanigans.

He's gone on to much bigger and better things around here these days. Anyone who knows of whom I speak --- will know what he's up to. He's a great guy.


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## Sito Origami (17 Sep 2008)

kratz said:
			
		

> Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to add to the other posts re: distancing from the military uniform mentality out there. For the past few years, St John Ambulance volunteers are asking for more everyday friendly uniforms vice the black and white style they currently use. Despite more than 125 years of service to the community and a close association with the military, people are wanting to distance themselves from the military these days.
> 
> I do not agree with SJA or the cadet movements gradually wearing away their links and history from their origins. Sadly, this is what is happening in an attempt to appease and appeal to those who object.



There is a some confusion in this thread about "military uniforms" and what a uniform is. I think you have to go back to the very beginning to get a very basic understanding of how the whole thing has evolved in our country, and by that, I really mean in the British system from where Canada has evolved.

The British Army's uniform was really just an evolution of civilian clothing. The famous 'redcoat' was nothing more than that - a red coat adopted for field wear by His Majesty's troops in the field. Along the way, certain distinctions were adopted in order to better identify certain status - knots on the shoulder were worn by corporals, officers wore a metal gorget at the throat, and the lining of the coat was sewn in specific colours to identify the wearer as belonging to a certain regiment - which in the 1600 and 1700s was usually identified by the name of the colonel - Blakeney's Regiment or Pulham's Regiment or the like - The Green Howards and The Buffs came from the fact there were two Colonel Howards, one who had green linings sewn to the inside of their men's redcoats, and the other with buff linings.

At the very root of things, then, from the beginning, uniforms were just clothes. Civilian and military fashion has always gone hand in hand (by the way, Maclean's Magazine has an article this month announcing the new U.S. Army line of clothing at Sears - I'm not making it up - the RCMP had done something similar, apparently).

If you look at British officer's uniforms of World War I, they are very similar to civilian lounge suits of that period, with the exception of being in Khaki. For military campaigning, of course, they added the Sam Browne belt and various equipment, and later the shrapnel helmet, respirator, revolver, etc. But away from the front, with the breeches and puttees and riding boots removed, the officer might reasonably pass for a businessman, with necktie and collarpin in place. Certainly shirts continued to be made by first line firms on Saville Row for officers.

Things changed in World War II as military dress became utilitarian - but then, civilian fashion did also. Jean jackets were inspired by the battle jackets of World War II, and the US Army inspired the world's militaries with a range of comfortable combat clothing in cotton duck. The Italians were the first to make heavy use of camouflage printed material; the Germans later became famous for it. Today the fad continues and everyone uses camouflage material - you can't walk through a shopping mall without seeing it in the trendiest clothing stores. Again - civilian fashion and military styles go hand in hand. Uniforms are really just clothes.

The "demilitarization" of uniforms has been observed in every organization in Canada - most notably the prison service, but also Canada Post, local police services, etc. Sometimes the move has been for practical reasons - rubber soled running shoes replace stiff leather boots which are better for delivering mail or chasing "perps" in. Hats have been disappearing from men's civilian fashions since at least the 1970s. Perhaps Christopher Pike is to blame; his hat is clearly visible on his television set in his quarters - but he's never seen wearing it. I doubt the answer really lies there though.

There should be no alarm when military uniform changes to match the changing norms of civilian fashion; the two have always been closely linked, one inspiring the other. Clothes may not make the man, but the uniform does act as a recruiting tool. I can understand the argument that a 'less aggressive' uniform is a 'less attractive' uniform, but there is also the danger of appearing outdated - cadet corps still wearing woolen battle jackets may appeal to some as a paean to tradition, but to most it would come off as either a fashion disaster or worse, child abuse. If the issue gas spectacles are referred to as birth control devices, there reaches a point also at which point outdated uniforms become a deterrent to recruiting also. In the natural order of things, uniforms evolve, in the civilian world as in the military world, and the two usually go hand in hand.


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## dimsum (17 Sep 2008)

Sito Origami said:
			
		

> At the very root of things, then, from the beginning, uniforms were just clothes. Civilian and military fashion has always gone hand in hand (by the way, Maclean's Magazine has an article this month announcing the new U.S. Army line of clothing at Sears - I'm not making it up - the RCMP had done something similar, apparently).



When I was on leave and flying from place to place a few months ago, I noticed that there were t-shirts, bags, etc. with the RCAF roundel and logo being sold at the airports, next to the RCMP line of clothing.


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## DONT_PANIC (17 Sep 2008)

Sito Origami said:
			
		

> Hats have been disappearing from men's civilian fashions since at least the 1970s. Perhaps Christopher Pike is to blame; his hat is clearly visible on his television set in his quarters - but he's never seen wearing it. I doubt the answer really lies there though.



Actually, it was President Kennedy that started the trend of men going hatless.  I think.


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## Sito Origami (17 Sep 2008)

DONT_PANIC said:
			
		

> Actually, it was President Kennedy that started the trend of men going hatless.  I think.



How dare you suggest that the greatest President since Abraham Lincoln was a Star Trek fan. I think.


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## DONT_PANIC (17 Sep 2008)

Sito Origami said:
			
		

> How dare you suggest that the greatest President since Abraham Lincoln was a Star Trek fan. I think.



That doesn't mean that we can't dress real neat, from our hats to our feet, and surprise 'em with a victory cry.


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## Sito Origami (17 Sep 2008)

DONT_PANIC said:
			
		

> That doesn't mean that we can't dress real neat, from our hats to our feet, and surprise 'em with a victory cry.



I agree completely.


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## old medic (6 Oct 2008)

Sito Origami said:
			
		

> Things changed in World War II as military dress became utilitarian - but then, civilian fashion did also. Jean jackets were inspired by the battle jackets of World War II,




Levi & Strauss Co. began selling their jean jackets in 1905, and the jackets went overseas during WW2.
The design remained the same until 1960.
They were not inspired by battle jackets.

Sources:
http://www.cottoninc.com/pressreleases/?articleID=119
http://www.levistrauss.com/Downloads/levis_timeline.pdf


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## Sito Origami (6 Oct 2008)

> Even now, more than 40 years after battledress was created, its ghost lives on in our midst in the denim jackets of the fashionable young, many of whom must be unaware of the nature of the beast they have inherited.



Source: "British Battledress 1937-1961" by Brian Jewell and Mike Chappell.

I don't doubt that cowboys wore denim jackets of some sort before 1940, but if you want to claim that short-waisted garments nearly identical to the Second World War battle jackets were widely popular before that, you'd need to provide a source with an illustration or two before I was even half-way convinced.


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## Greymatters (6 Oct 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> It must be a very small group within St. John Ambulance. There is certainly no volume to any movement away from the uniforms. The uniform is a requirement to be identified when providing community service.  It is important to that other professional first responders know where to look for the St. John volunteers.



I would agree with that - if anything, civilian organizations appear to be just as 'militant' as they have always been, with police forces emulating the military more and more often across the country...


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## xena (6 Oct 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I would agree with that - if anything, civilian organizations appear to be just as 'militant' as they have always been, with police forces emulating the military more and more often across the country...



And yet the Military Police have recently adopted a black uniform that looks distinctly more like a civilian police uniform than a military one.  I'm not arguing with you, Greymatters, I was just noting the irony of that particular move.

And FWIW, I know firsthand that the Commissionaires (at least in BC) are currently trying to move away from "military" style uniforms.  Mind you, I think some of the critics are wing-nuts that feel that *ANY* uniform is militaristic.  They're trying to do away with the ranks of Corporal and Warrant Officer in the BC Corps because they imagine that the average person hears more about Sergeants on TV, so that's all they understand.  Sad really.  Especially when you consider how many Commissionaires now have no military or police experience nowadays...  the organization is a shadow of it's former self.


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## 1feral1 (6 Oct 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This may be a Canadian phenomenon only, perhaps in line with the increasingly "anti-military" culture that is growing.



Here in Australia the traditional Boy Scout and Cub Scout uniforms have been abandoned for blue t-shirts, as not to traumatise any new Australians in looking paramilitary.

At times like these, its us who are our own worst enemy. You know, the fear to offend others, when in fact they might not be offended at all. 


OWDU

Edited for spelling


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## old medic (6 Oct 2008)

Short waist jean jackets were used by the confederate army 1863-64.  There are examples
at the Smithsonian Institute, but with only a single left pocket.

The US Navy began using denim work shirts with the pockets and jeans in 1901.

Below is a 1917 USN photo, you can see the lower jacket pockets clearly on the two men nearest the
left.

The US Army began using denim work dress in 1919, however the jacket was longer than the navy one.
Other prewar and WW2 US army denim photos:
http://supertalk.superfuture.com/showthread.php?t=51912


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Oct 2008)

Sito Origami said:
			
		

> Source: "British Battledress 1937-1961" by Brian Jewell and Mike Chappell.
> 
> I don't doubt that cowboys wore denim jackets of some sort before 1940, but if you want to claim that short-waisted garments nearly identical to the Second World War battle jackets were widely popular before that, you'd need to provide a source with an illustration or two before I was even half-way convinced.



The basic design of the "jean jacket" was probably established in the early 1900s when the Levi's 506xx type-1 went into production (see pic below for example of this model jacket).  Short waisted jackets were probably common as work garments for more than just cowboys, simply because they were ultilitarian (and cheap).  The adoption by the British military of battledress was itself an adaptation of ski outfits and working men's clothing.  The rising popularity (in the USA) of "jean jackets" after WW2 probably has as much to do with it being a cheap, casual jacket that many ex-soldiers took to wearing, not because they fondly remembered their uniforms but because it was cheap, hard-wearing and (into the fifties) became one of the symbols of rebellious youth as protrayed on the screen by Brando, Dean et al.


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## Greymatters (6 Oct 2008)

xena said:
			
		

> And yet the Military Police have recently adopted a black uniform that looks distinctly more like a civilian police uniform than a military one.  I'm not arguing with you, Greymatters, I was just noting the irony of that particular move.



Well, not to argue, but the black 'civilian' police uniform is, in my eyes, merely a copy of black uniforms formerly used by some military forces (if not in Canada then elsewhere in the world).  Any standardized 'uniform' has roots and/or similarities that can be traced back to the military...


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## Michael OLeary (6 Oct 2008)

A SHORT HISTORY OF DENIM
     (c) 2007 Lynn Downey
  Levi Strauss & Co. Historian

http://www.levistrauss.com/Downloads/History-Denim.pdf

And, from the company timeline:

http://www.levistrauss.com/Downloads/levis_timeline.pdf



> 1940s – During World War II, the design of waist overalls is changed due to government
> mandates regarding the conservation of raw materials. U.S. soldiers wear their Levi's® jeans and
> jackets overseas, giving the products their first international exposure.



So it appears the denim jacket may predate battle dress jackets.


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## marshall sl (6 Oct 2008)

Sito Origami said:
			
		

> The "demilitarization" of uniforms has been observed in every organization in Canada - most notably the prison service, but also Canada Post, local police services, etc.








1st of all it's a Correctional Service,and have another look at the Correctional Service of Canada  uniforms,both working and Dress. We have returned to a military style!!


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## Greymatters (6 Oct 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ... became one of the symbols of rebellious youth as protrayed on the screen by Brando, Dean et al.



Definately a big selling point...


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## X Royal (8 Oct 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> It must be a very small group within St. John Ambulance. There is certainly no volume to any movement away from the uniforms. The uniform is a requirement to be identified when providing community service.  It is important to that other professional first responders know where to look for the St. John volunteers.
> 
> The standard working uniform for St. John is black cargo pants, white shirt, (black sweater) beret, or officer cap and appropriate bright yellow coloured outerwear depending upon the service with St. John First Aid.  Accoutrements include rank epaulets.The uniform is similar for adults, cadets, and crusaders.
> 
> ...



GWP: As far as uniform standards go for St. John Ambulance go, they vary from province to province. Yes some provinces are moving away from traditional military uniforms. Other's are not.
In Ontario we have recently went to black tactical shirts for our Advanced Medical First Responders. This includes rank insignia. I can't count the times I've been misidentified as a security guard or as a OPP. Our shoulder flashes clearly state (MEDICAL FIRST RESPONSE-St.John Ambulance Volunteer).
I am a regional staff officer for Southwestern Ontario.

Pro Patria: Rick


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