# As usual the Americans get nothing but love for their sacrifices....



## Cdn Blackshirt (25 Jan 2005)

This was emailed to me although the source is provided....



Matthew.   




No Relief in Sight for the USS Abraham Lincoln 

Soldiers for The Truth ^ | January 20, 2005 | "Ed Stanton"


It has been three weeks since my ship, the USS Abraham Lincoln, arrived off the Sumatran coast to aid the hundreds of thousands of victims of the Dec. 26 tsunami that ravaged their coastline. I'd like to say that this has been a rewarding experience for us, but it has not: Instead, it has been a frustrating and needlessly dangerous exercise made even more difficult by the Indonesian government and a traveling circus of so-called aid workers who have invaded our spaces. 

What really irritated me was a scene I witnessed in the Lincoln's wardroom a few days ago. I went in for breakfast as I usually do, expecting to see the usual crowd of ship's company officers in khakis and air wing aviators in flight suits, drinking coffee and exchanging rumors about when our ongoing humanitarian mission in Sumatra is going to end. 

What I saw instead was a mob of civilians sitting around like they owned the place. They wore various colored vests with logos on the back including Save The Children, World Health Organization and the dreaded baby blue vest of the United Nations. Mixed in with this crowd were a bunch of reporters, cameramen and Indonesian military officers in uniform. They all carried cameras, sunglasses and fanny packs like tourists on their way to Disneyland. 

My warship had been transformed into a floating hotel for a bunch of trifling do-gooders overnight. 

As I went through the breakfast line, I overheard one of the U.N. strap-hangers, a longhaired guy with a beard, make a sarcastic comment to one of our food servers. He said something along the lines of â Å“Nice china, really makes me feel special,â ? in reference to the fact that we were eating off of paper plates that day. It was all I could do to keep from jerking him off his feet and choking him, because I knew that the reason we were eating off paper plates was to save dishwashing water so that we would have more water to send ashore and save lives. That plus the fact that he had no business being there in the first place. 

My attitude towards these unwanted no-loads grew steadily worse that day as I learned more from one of our junior officers who was assigned to escort a group of them. It turns out that they had come to Indonesia to â Å“assess the damageâ ? from the Dec. 26 tsunami. 

Well, they could have turned on any TV in the world and seen that the damage was total devastation. When they got to Sumatra with no plan, no logistics support and no five-star hotels to stay in, they threw themselves on the mercy of the U.S. Navy, which, unfortunately, took them in. I guess our senior brass was hoping for some good PR since this was about the time that the U.N. was calling the United States â Å“stingyâ ? with our relief donations. 

As a result of having to host these people, our severely over-tasked SH-60 Seahawk helos, which were carrying tons of food and water every day to the most inaccessible places in and around Banda Aceh, are now used in great part to ferry these â Å“relief workersâ ? from place to place every day and bring them back to their guest bedrooms on the Lincoln at night. Despite their avowed dedication to helping the victims, these relief workers will not spend the night in-country, and have made us their guardians by default. 

When our wardroom treasurer approached the leader of the relief group and asked him who was paying the mess bill for all the meals they ate, the fellow replied, â Å“We aren't paying, you can try to bill the U.N. if you want to.â ? 

In addition to the relief workers, we routinely get tasked with hauling around reporters and various low-level â Å“VIPs,â ? which further wastes valuable helo lift that could be used to carry supplies. We had to dedicate two helos and a C-2 cargo plane for America-hater Dan Rather and his entourage of door holders and briefcase carriers from CBS News. Another camera crew was from MTV. I doubt if we'll get any good PR from them, since the cable channel is banned in Muslim countries. We also had to dedicate a helo and crew to fly around the vice mayor of Phoenix, Ariz., one day. Everyone wants in on the action. 

As for the Indonesian officers, while their job is apparently to encourage our leaving as soon as possible, all they seem to do in the meantime is smoke cigarettes. They want our money and our help but they don't want their population to see that Americans are doing far more for them in two weeks than their own government has ever done or will ever do for them. 

To add a kick in the face to the USA and the Lincoln, the Indonesian government announced it would not allow us to use their airspace for routine training and flight proficiency operations while we are saving the lives of their people, some of whom are wearing Osama bin Ladin T-shirts as they grab at our food and water. The ship has to steam out into international waters to launch and recover jets, which makes our helos have to fly longer distances and burn more fuel. 

What is even worse than trying to help people who totally reject everything we stand for is that our combat readiness has suffered for it. 

An aircraft carrier is an instrument of national policy and the big stick she carries is her air wing. An air wing has a set of very demanding skills and they are highly perishable. We train hard every day at sea to conduct actual air strikes, air defense, maritime surveillance, close air support and many other missions â â€œ not to mention taking off and landing on a ship at sea. 

Our safety regulations state that if a pilot does not get a night carrier landing every seven days, he has to be re-qualified to land on the ship. Today we have pilots who have now been over 25 days without a trap due to being unable to use Indonesian airspace to train. Normally it is when we are at sea that our readiness is at its very peak. Thanks to the Indonesian government, we have to waive our own safety rules just to get our pilots off the deck. 

In other words, the longer we stay here helping these people, the more dangerous it gets for us to operate. We have already lost one helicopter, which crashed in Banda Aceh while taking sailors ashore to unload supplies from the C-130s. There were no relief workers on that one. 

I'm all for helping the less fortunate, but it is time to give this mission to somebody other than the U.S. Navy. Our ship was supposed to be home on Feb. 3 and now we have no idea how long we will be here. American taxpayers are spending millions per day to keep this ship at sea and getting no training value out of it. As a result, we will come home in a lower state of readiness than when we left due to the lack of flying while supporting the tsunami relief effort. 

I hope we get some good PR in the Muslim world out of it. After all, this is Americans saving the lives of Muslims. I have my doubts. 

Ed Stanton is the pen name of a career U.S. Navy officer currently serving with the USS Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group.


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## 735_winnipeg (25 Jan 2005)

i've always have great respect for the USN.  i've specially have great pride in what they're doing there now.  keep up the good work and we hope that everything turns out for the better.  ignore those hippies, they grow like weeds wherever there's military personnel and bases.  as for those reporters, try to use them to your advantage, you guys may not get good PR there but folk at home will be very proud of you guys.  as for those govt officials, like here in canada, they have no idea on the hows and whys of the military, so just ignore them.  keep up the good work.


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## a_majoor (25 Jan 2005)

This letter should be cut, pasted and forwarded to every newspaper and blog site in the free world. As for these parisitical "hangers on" littering the USS Abraham Lincoln, perhaps they can be set adrift on a lifeboat; or on a more practical note, the helos just have to "forget" to make the pickup from shore that evening......


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## sdimock (25 Jan 2005)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> the helos just have to "forget" to make the pickup from shore that evening......



Not "forget", "Had more pressing matters"  or "grounded for maintenance"   

Maybe a few of the thousands of orphans would appreciate a safe nights sleep and a good meal.

I'm sure they would feel special even with the paper plates.


Chimo


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## Armymedic (25 Jan 2005)

Only people with military experience can truely understand some of the sacrifices (like using paper plates to save water) we will go to in order to ensure mission success.

I guess one difference between the US military and ours is that we are not surprised by the actions of NGO's, reporters, etc as mentioned in the article. I suspect its an attitude of "its the US military, they will do it for us, because they are rich..."


wait, sounds like our defence policy....


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## Long in the tooth (26 Jan 2005)

The US is in their usual "damn if you do, damned if you don't" situation.  A recent article stated that a large percentage of Europeans had disdain for Americans but expected assistance if threatened by tyranny, natural disaster or external threat.  "I'm from the UN and I'm here to help you, and I've brought the Americans to do the real work....."


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## muskrat89 (26 Jan 2005)

Photoshop, I'm sure, but cute anyway.....


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## a_majoor (26 Jan 2005)

Don't forget to add an EU and UN flag before you repost it!


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## Horse_Soldier (26 Jan 2005)

Add a Canadian flag while you're at it.  Let's not be too proud here


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## Baloo (26 Jan 2005)

Wait, wait,wait. Guys, might as well add every other nation in the world. Because we all know NO other nations pull their own weight, right? Guys? Because France has no commitments going on in Africa, that is for sure. The Russians don't have their own problems in Chechnya, and the fact that many do not want their troops in their country. Oh, those Germans. Damn their only helping out in Afghanistan! Damn them! The EU. What a bunch of slackers. Poland has no commitments. I just wish the US would stop doing all the work for them! Jeez. 

[/sarcasm]


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

That tag shoulda been </IDIOT>

Wether you like to admit it or not, the US does more for the worldwide pursuit of freedom and democracy than most of the nations put together.


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## Baloo (26 Jan 2005)

Did I ever once mention that the US does no work, or that we should not wholeheartedly thank them for their efforts? No, I suppose I didn't. So, before we start putting words in my mouth, I am addressing the fact that it is petty jabs like the picture above that prove so irritating, because it makes it seems like no-one else does anything at all to help in the world. Aside from Iraq II, where have the French not been with the US in recent memory? Same with the Germans. And what? A decade from the fall of the Berlin Wall, we are expecting the Russians to immediately send forth Brigades of Freedom?

So, whether you like to admit it or not, the world does a great deal more than you would like to admit in the "name of democracy and freedom".


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

Granted, other countries do contribute some.  The UK and Australia mainly these days, but the Germans and the French have also traditionaly helped.  I don't see any writing anywhere on that picture that says "France and germany never do shit", so I think you're over-reacting a bit.  The picture is inetended as a humorous jab at those countries for their lack of participation in, and criticism of, the Iraq campaign.  It's also quite mild compared to all the anti-US rhetoric being thrown about these days, which you don't seem to be quite as quick to go nuts about.


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## Wizard of OZ (26 Jan 2005)

You have to feel for the guys on the carrier especially if the OSAMA T-shirt stuff is correct.  I don't know if i could do it personally. 

I would have said the government has not allowed us in there airspace? So the helos don't fly. Here is a tent enjoy your stay.

yea there has been alot of American bashing 48 but like i said in a different post when you are the big kid on the block as soon as your back is turned all the little kids are going to take shots at you.  (actually i used king of the hill but you know what i mean.)


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

I know Wiz, that's something I understand.  However, it doesn't mean that the big kid isn't allowed to give the little kid's a smack upside the head now and then


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## Wizard of OZ (26 Jan 2005)

That my friend is the a double edged sword.  A) it makes a lovely sound when you pound them into the ground ( the sound like a watermelon hitting the pavement when dropped from two stories)

B) it sucks cause then the world sees you picking on the little guy and you know that there will be some press geek there with the camera when it happens.

to bad though cause alot of smaller nations are like cockroaches out when it is dark but scury when that light comes on.


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## CivU (26 Jan 2005)

48,

If the US is such a staunch supporter of freedom and democracy the world over and does such admirable work, as you suggest, then why is it that they are the most despised nation on the face of the Earth?  And let's avoid citing everyone elses superpower inferiority complex...


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## muskrat89 (26 Jan 2005)

> most despised nation on the face of the Earth



Based on what? Your instinct?

If its your opinion, start stating it as such


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## Baloo (26 Jan 2005)

Wow. That is a very broad and debateable generalization you have made there. "Most despised"? That is highly doubtful.


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## mdh (26 Jan 2005)

If the US is such a staunch supporter of freedom and democracy the world over and does such admirable work, as you suggest, then why is it that they are the most despised nation on the face of the Earth?   And let's avoid citing everyone elses superpower inferiority complex...

yawn ....hey guys isn't the super bowl on this weekend?


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## Wizard of OZ (26 Jan 2005)

I don't know about most despised nation.   But people love to hate them.   

i think it has to do with a jealousy not over superpower or not but just the wealth that they have.   And then i comes to them playing the role of international police man.   They do what they think is right (which is not always wrong but to the same degree not always the best decision.)

But they are the biggest kid on the block.   And that alone makes them the target of everyones scrutiny.


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> I don't know about most despised nation.   But people love to hate them.
> 
> i think it has to do with a jealousy not over superpower or not but just the wealth that they have.   And then i comes to them playing the role of international police man.   They do what they think is right (which is not always wrong but to the same degree not always the best decision.)
> 
> But they are the biggest kid on the block.   And that alone makes them the target of everyones scrutiny.



Exactly.  You never see protests against totalitarian regimes which murder their own people and occupy other nations.  Hell, how many protests do you see against Chinas occupation of Tibet?  Even though the people of Tibet are amongst the most peacefull in the world, and have been ruthlesly opressed by the Chinese.  Palestinians on the other hand kill Israelis on a daily basis, and Israel responds with an impressive ammount of restraint.  Yet do the "peace activists" protest against China, or against Israel?

People love to hate the Americans and the Jooos.  It has very little to do with their foreign policy, and a lot more to do with peoples perceptions and biases.


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## Horse_Soldier (26 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> 48,
> 
> If the US is such a staunch supporter of freedom and democracy the world over and does such admirable work, as you suggest, then why is it that they are the most despised nation on the face of the Earth?   And let's avoid citing everyone elses superpower inferiority complex...



Actually, the inferiority complex is very heavily at play... not the least among our own political elites.   And I do take exception to your polemics "most despised nation on the face of the Earth" indeed.


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## CivU (26 Jan 2005)

Who is more despised than the US then? An example?

As far as, "Palestinians on the other hand kill Israelis on a daily basis, and Israel responds with an impressive ammount of restraint"

Restraint? The violence by Israeli military forces against Palestinians is hardly restrained.  Both sides engage equally violently, albeit through different means...I'd check your sources if you think the Israeli's are mere victims who fail to retaliate.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jan 2005)

Quote from CivU,
_If the US is such a staunch supporter of freedom and democracy the world over and does such admirable work, as you suggest, then why is it that they are the most despised nation on the face of the Earth?  _ 

...because there is ALWAYS gonna be teenage and early twenty-year old alpha males in this world who just can't deal with the fact that someone else on the next block is bigger and tougher, and since I can't get the girl by standing tall, I will slither and slice and back-stab them so that just maybe someday I can shed this horrible case of penis envy that I'm burdoned with.


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## Tpr.Orange (26 Jan 2005)

Horse_Soldier said:
			
		

> Add a Canadian flag while you're at it.  Let's not be too proud here



we have the Dart team down then, including several of my buddies. So how about showing some respect to our troops that are down there serving and doing the best damn job they can.


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> Restraint? The violence by Israeli military forces against Palestinians is hardly restrained.   Both sides engage equally violently, albeit through different means...I'd check your sources if you think the Israeli's are mere victims who fail to retaliate.



      You just proved my point.   Instead of agreing that the Chinese treatment of Tibet is horrid, and maybe attempting to explain your lack of commentary on that subject, you start debating semantics about wether Israel or Palestine is the agressor.   That's typical of those who oppose the US and Israel.   They're so blinded by their hatred that they turn a blind eye to murder and oppression around the world.   Nothing in this world is wrong unless it's caused by the policies of the US or Israel, right?


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## Wizard of OZ (26 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> Who is more despised than the US then? An example?
> 
> As far as, "Palestinians on the other hand kill Israelis on a daily basis, and Israel responds with an impressive ammount of restraint"
> 
> Restraint? The violence by Israeli military forces against Palestinians is hardly restrained.   Both sides engage equally violently, albeit through different means...I'd check your sources if you think the Israeli's are mere victims who fail to retaliate.



Umm Israel, North Korea, China, it depends on how's doing the finger pointing.  That could be the start of a list.  How bout Cuba, Columbia, Kirsblackistan (made that one up).

Bruce  

I like that analogy better mind if i use it.  Have to agree, tis why thier bellys are so white, scrapping on the floor.


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## Slim (26 Jan 2005)

> Restraint? The violence by Israeli military forces against Palestinians is hardly restrained



Do you realize that within days of being created Israel was attacked bu no less than three nations all bent on its complete destruction! I don't believe that they've let up since. They're just using different methods now that are more deniable...Like killing innocent civvies at the market or on a bus to make their point.

Certainly more restraint than I would show...

CIVU...I am beginning to think that this may not be the best website for you to belong to. After all you seem to be at odds with almost everyone here...

Slim


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## Pikache (26 Jan 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> CIVU...I am beginning to think that this may not be the best website for you to belong to. After all you seem to be at odds with almost everyone here...



On the other hand, I think the board needs more diverse opinions, as long as they can express themselves according to the guidelines set.

I'd love a liberal to change my mind. (Too bad they fail most of the time)  And I'm just a centrist too. LOL


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## HollywoodHitman (26 Jan 2005)

Anyone know where I can get a BinLaden T-Shirt? I think it'd be a hit at parties.


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## 48Highlander (26 Jan 2005)

Yeah I was wondering that too.  I figure if I wore one of those t-shirts to a campus party, I should be able to double my dating overnight


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## Gouki (26 Jan 2005)

Because his opinion is different does not mean he should leave the board .. a forum where there are no differences of opinion would get stale real quick


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## Danjanou (26 Jan 2005)

No he can stay and play just remember the rules. 

"If you can't run with the big dogs , then stay up on the porch."

You come up with and post a statement or some political theory at any end of the political spectrum, be prepared to back it up with facts and intelligent discourse because someone here may disagree with you.

My problem with many of our left of centre associates here (and elsewhere) is they often fail to do so. Then someone tears apart their ideas with the ease of 7.62mm round going through a figure 11 target ( or any other object that strikes your fancy   >) they get all wwhinyand defensive because the big bad, right wing, fascist, uncaring army boys yelled at them, and fall back on the same PC spouted drivel on how we don't understand the facts.

Gimme a break.

For the record in addition to my 17 years of honourable military service, I have the dubious honour of having one of those upper middle class suburban left wing university educations. I've also worked in and with agencies similar to those mentioned on the Lincoln and and at last count have seen more third world sh*t holes than many on this board first hand. That I think gives me some insight into this.



Personally I love the idea of forgetting to send the Helios back one night. 

(edited to correct typos  :-[)


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## Gouki (26 Jan 2005)

All this right and left talk .... I think I would actually change my name to Groovy George and put on a poncho while chanting "I hate the military!" if someone here were actually .. as crazy as this sounds .. *neither left nor right*.


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## Georgia Minuteman (27 Jan 2005)

That is typical of the thanks we get when we help countries with an ingrained hatred for our values and democracy.   But...we help em anyways because its the right thing to do.


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## Wizard of OZ (27 Jan 2005)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Anyone know where I can get a BinLaden T-Shirt? I think it'd be a hit at parties.



I think if you sign up you get the tshirt and the bomb vest.  

Big hits at cafe's bus stops and polling stations in Iraq.


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## Wizard of OZ (27 Jan 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> If the US is such a staunch supporter of freedom and democracy the world over and does such admirable work, as you suggest, then why is it that they are the most despised nation on the face of the Earth?   And let's avoid citing everyone elses superpower inferiority complex...
> 
> yawn ....hey guys isn't the super bowl on this weekend?



Actually it is FEB 6th  

let the beer flow and Eagles Soar 

(i actually don't care who wins as long as the beer is cold the wings are hot and the pizza is steaming)


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## Jarnhamar (27 Jan 2005)

Some of the rudest most ignorant people i've worked with abroad have been aid workers. Even people associated with these groups back home seem to have some chip on their soldier.

I don't know what it is about the military that makes people think they can boss soldiers around when both elements are working together.  I couldn't count how many times i've heard some dummy say "I pay your salary. Their like jackels. The minute they see you helping out they jump all over you and try to get as much as they can out of you.   Helping at a blood donar clinic? All of a sudden the red cross fucks off for 45 minute chit chats in the mess while you sort their shit out.
others walk around, as mentioned int he story, like they own the place. I don't know why they feel the need to seemingly make sure EVERYONE hears what they are talking about when they have a coversation. Reminds me of a bunch of girls in highschool starting rumors.


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## Wizard of OZ (27 Jan 2005)

ahh they are alowed to be rude.  they pay your salary. ;D

heaven help them if the shit hits the fan and they piss off all the guys with guns.  Who ya come crying to now sweatheat.

yea love them liberals so PC yet so ignornant.  I loved being called a baby killer don't you. :rage:


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## 48Highlander (27 Jan 2005)

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> ahh they are alowed to be rude.   they pay your salary. ;D



stop being a butthole 



			
				Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> yea love them liberals so PC yet so ignornant.   I loved being called a baby killer don't you. :rage:



Next time grab 'em by the shirt, lean in, and growl "There aint nuthin as good as bayonetting babies".  For some reason, even though they acuse you of being a baby killer, they don't seem to expect that sort of reaction....


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## FastEddy (28 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> 48,
> 
> If the US is such a staunch supporter of freedom and democracy the world over and does such admirable work, as you suggest, then why is it that they are the most despised nation on the face of the Earth?   And let's avoid citing everyone elses superpower inferiority complex...




Yes, you are most certainly allowed to express your opinons on this Forum. However, it seems quite clear
that you really do not have very much to offer in that area.
Regardless of what ever reasons, the fact that U.S. Servicemen and Women are dying
every day for freedom & democracy seems to have escaped you, while you sit all comfee and cosy U.S Bashing.


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## camochick (28 Jan 2005)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Yes, you are most certainly allowed to express your opinons on this Forum. However, it seems quite clear
> that you really do not have very much to offer in that area.
> Regardless of what ever reasons, the fact that U.S. Servicemen and Women are dying
> every day for freedom & democracy seems to have escaped you, while you sit all comfee and cosy U.S Bashing.



I have the deepest respect for soldiers. They do the dirty work and get none of the recognition. However, did anyone ask if these people want democracy? IS democracy really the answer? I feel terrible that young men and women are dying in iraq but was it really necessary? 

Oh and not all liberals(god I hate being labelled) think soldiers are babykillers. I defend the military on a daily basis from all the hippies I encounter and my opinions are very left sided.


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## CivU (28 Jan 2005)

"the fact that U.S. Servicemen and Women are dying every day for freedom & democracy" 

I feel for the soldiers in Iraq who are merely doing their job as ordered; however, the freedom and democracy slant is pretty weak.  How is this happening?  Where is the freedom and democracy?


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## muskrat89 (28 Jan 2005)

> Where is the freedom and democracy



I guess you haven't heard about the elections...   :


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## a_majoor (28 Jan 2005)

camochick said:
			
		

> I have the deepest respect for soldiers. They do the dirty work and get none of the recognition. *However, did anyone ask if these people want democracy? IS democracy really the answer? * I feel terrible that young men and women are dying in iraq but was it really necessary?



You will get your answer very soon. The Iraqis will go to the polls, and over 80% of the population intends to vote according to a recent poll. Given the high level of threat and the open challenge to democracy posted by the Jihadis, it is a case for some unfortunate citizens they will vote, or die trying. Contrast that to Canada, where a rain shower seem to be enough to dissuade voters from going to the polls.

It is difficult to imagine what other sort of system would provide the liberty that a democratic government does, but if you can find a working example, please post it.


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## Glorified Ape (28 Jan 2005)

As much as the US-bashers have selective memories, it seems the Ameriphiles have the same problem. This "poor, poor US" bit is slightly absurd if you consider that alongside every great US intervention there's the propping up of a dictatorship, arms sales and training to countries busy slaughtering their populations (or someone else's), etc. Canada does this crap too, which we also tend to forget. 

The US does good things and bad things, lets not forget the latter in our stampede to swoon over the former.


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## camochick (28 Jan 2005)

I don't have an answer to that because in reality there is no other system that would afford us the freedoms we have now. It would be great if there was, but I am no political scientist so I have no plans of coming up with one anytime soon. I guess my questions were just thoughts about the fact that those of us who live in democracies feel the need to spread it around and force it upon others(not everyone , but in general). I also see a ton of holes in the whole democracy is freedom. However, i am glad I live where i live and have the freedoms i have. I just wonder if there is another way to go about helping people obtaining freedom.


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## Pikache (28 Jan 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> As much as the US-bashers have selective memories, it seems the Ameriphiles have the same problem. This "poor, poor US" bit is slightly absurd if you consider that alongside every great US intervention there's the propping up of a dictatorship, arms sales and training to countries busy slaughtering their populations (or someone else's), etc. Canada does this crap too, which we also tend to forget.
> 
> The US does good things and bad things, lets not forget the latter in our stampede to swoon over the former.



I don't disagree that US did some really questionable things, but it just really annoys me when all the 'Yankee go home' guys automatically paste the Great Satan with muck. (the vice versa with Yank lovers annoy me also)


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## Wizard of OZ (28 Jan 2005)

I don't think there would be a freer society then a truly democratic one.  But even in the US and Canada that is being stretched.  As once elected the people have little control for say 4 yrs over what happens in government.  I think if the senate (in Canada) was elected as well then it may be a bit different.  

It is much better then ohh say totalitarian or communist or monarchy.  

The soldiers are always just following orders but you have to wonder if they believe things will get better.  For their sake we will find out sooner rather then later.


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## a_majoor (28 Jan 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> As much as the US-bashers have selective memories, it seems the Ameriphiles have the same problem. This "poor, poor US" bit is slightly absurd if you consider that alongside every great US intervention there's the propping up of a dictatorship, arms sales and training to countries busy slaughtering their populations (or someone else's), etc. Canada does this crap too, which we also tend to forget.
> 
> The US does good things and bad things, lets not forget the latter in our stampede to swoon over the former.



The US was guilty of propping up dictatorships in the quest for "Stability", and were rightly condemmned for this. It is a bit absurd that now that they have seen the error of their ways, and are working to undo the mistakes of the past, they are being roundly condemned for toppling dictatorships...


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## 1feral1 (28 Jan 2005)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Contrast that to Canada, where a rain shower seem to be enough to dissuade voters from going to the polls.



Here in Australia it is compulsory to vote and you are FINED if you don't vote federally. State and local council elections too. There is no escaping it (illness etc is acceptable).

Elections are ALWAYS on a Saturday, and no time off to vote is given. The onus is on YOU to vote, or pay the fine.

Yesterday between 10-13,000 Iraqis living in Australia voted already. So the birth of democarcy has already begun by thier citizens voting overseas not only here but in over a dozen other countries already. There was a high level of security here for them, even here there is a risk. 

This way everyone votes. Its democarcy and it works. As much as dispise the entire region over there, lets hope more good things happen, as the media always plays on the negative for ratings. In a way they are a bigger enemy than the bad guys.

Cheers,

Wes


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## T.I.M. (28 Jan 2005)

Well, I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but elections not synonymous with democracy or freedom, nor do the latter two necessarily follow from the former.

Elections are just the most visible aspect of democracy, but there are many other things a democracy requires such as rule of law, respect for minority rights, free press, civic responsibility and so on.   In Iraq these things are either nascent, seriously challenged, or non-existant, and their development will not necessarily follow from a "successful" election.   The Whitehouse formulation of 50%+ turnout equating with success contains some serious misdirection.   After all, the Shia are going to turn out it record numbers not because they respect democratic principles, but because it is a way for them to gain power over the Sunni minority.   This is not a healthy foundation for democratic development.

In my opinion the election will likely change very little.   The voters are not selecting individuals, or even parties with distinct platforms, but broad "lists" whose positions on specific issues are largely unknown.   These lists will then among themselves select who will run the country.  It's very probable that Iraq will end up with much the same government with most of the same people as it had prior to the elections, the Sunni will remain alienated and dissatisfied, and the insurgency will continue.

The big change will be for Washington, as elections will be a significant PR coup for the administration, and will allow it to portray its mission in a more positive light.   As for Iraq, if things turn out well elections _may_ be a step towards democracy, but it'll be a very small step.


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## CivU (28 Jan 2005)

"I guess you haven't heard about the elections... "

I don't know that these elections will represent freedom and democracy, its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy.  It happened in Panama following the Noriega ousting and more recently in Afghanistan...hardly the epitome of freedom and democracy.


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## muskrat89 (28 Jan 2005)

> I don't know that these elections will represent freedom and democracy, its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy.



based on what?


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## CivU (28 Jan 2005)

Comparable history...

Do yourself a favour and look into Panama circa 1989...


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## muskrat89 (28 Jan 2005)

I think you need to do yourself a favour and.....  oh, never mind. 

We're not discussing Panama, in case you hadn't noticed. I would like to know what evidence you can provide to the board that supports the notion that " its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy"

Otherwise, it is just your opinion.


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## winchable (28 Jan 2005)

Well amidst a bit of snark he makes a point though perhaps not the one he'd like.
History has a habit of repeating itself regardless of who's acting it out, so the only way we will ever be able truly judge the US's actions will be in 10-20 years or so.
Which should be enough for both sides to stuff it for a while and get the job done before praises are sung on either side.



And the article is funny(not "haha" funny though), I have a friend (Who until recently was quite close) who went to work for an aid agency. When I went in the direction I'm going he distanced himself from me and I've gotten quite a few "oh nice china"-type comments from him since.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (28 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> "I guess you haven't heard about the elections... "
> 
> I don't know that these elections will represent freedom and democracy, its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy.   It happened in Panama following the Noriega ousting and more recently in Afghanistan...hardly the epitome of freedom and democracy.



Subtle suggestion:  
Review the following flash site by the Globe & Mail:   www.theglobeandmail.com/special/flash/Iraq/
Then do a search and look up the CIA estimates that put Allawi (The U.S.A.'s preferred candidate) in a distant 3rd place with Al-Sistani's Shi'a Party in a strong lead with the Kurds in second.

Then reconsider your statement and the implication, because neither are based on anything resembling the facts on the ground.

Thanks,



Matthew.


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## CivU (28 Jan 2005)

You honestly think that after several years and almost 1500 American lives the United States is going to permit a leader to gain power in Iraq that is not on board with their plans for the country...?  I don't think I'm the one out of touch with whats happening...


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## Infanteer (28 Jan 2005)

I'm going to agree with CivU on this one, although as Che said, he may not have said it in the best way.

What is the point of the US becoming strategically engaged in Iraq, paying the butchers bill all-along, only to squander away whatever political capital they had.   Whoever gets in power in the Iraq elections will be on a short-leash.


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## Slim (28 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> You honestly think that after several years and almost 1500 American lives the United States is going to permit a leader to gain power in Iraq that is not on board with their plans for the country...?   I don't think I'm the one out of touch with whats happening...



I can't believe the stuff that comes out of you...Is someone else paying you to come here and spew this drivel?!

You're a second L.T. who isn't even out of school yet. You have 0 life experience in an area where the people you're talking to (or spewing garbage at) have been over there and seen for themselves what the situation is.

Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth!


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## CivU (28 Jan 2005)

I'm actually an Officer Cadet.  But thats beside the point, as you have no idea as to the extent of my life experience...

As far as Iraq and the election goes, I don't know that anyone on this board has been over there in a capacity that would provide them an insight into the relations between Iraqi politicians and the American policy makers...I do not think personnel at the sharp end are concerned with this...

Infanteer, in a rare moment of agreement, stated that the US is strategically engaged in Iraq.  Whether you believe its about oil or that they are simply the greatest proponents of freedom and democracy the world over, one cannot deny that after all the costs associated with the Iraq quagmire they willl merely allow a government to take power that is in opposition to their interests.  But I guess you know everything there is to know regarding the backroom political strategizing currently taking place in Washington and Baghdad...either that, or your the only one pretending to have facts when all of us recognize that this is speculation, but nonetheless, has been agreed upon as the most self evident course that will be taken...


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## Slim (28 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> I'm actually an Officer Cadet.   But thats beside the point, as you have no idea as to the extent of my life experience...
> 
> As far as Iraq and the election goes, I don't know that anyone on this board has been over there in a capacity that would provide them an insight into the relations between Iraqi politicians and the American policy makers



This includes you as well right?


> ...I do not think personnel at the sharp end are concerned with this...



Maybe or maybe not. However the BTDT's have a much clearer understanding of the types of situations that Iraq represents and can probably see a much less convoluted picture than the rest of us!



> But I guess you know everything there is to know regarding the backroom political strategizing currently taking place in Washington and Baghdad...either that, or your the only one pretending to have facts when all of us recognize that this is speculation, but nonetheless, has been agreed upon as the most self evident course that will be taken...



If you're of the opinion that this is all idle speculation then why, a few posts back, did you loudly proclaim (and I quote: 





> I don't know that these elections will represent freedom and democracy, its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy.  It happened in Panama following the Noriega ousting and more recently in Afghanistan...hardly the epitome of freedom and democracy.



You seem pretty certain that you DO have all the answers and are rather dissapointed that the rest of us refuse to sit at your feet and suck up your point of view as the gospel. Like I said...All books, no life on the line. Others have been there and I would be much more willing to give them an ear before some university student with all the answers.


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## CivU (28 Jan 2005)

Yes I included myself.  And no I did not proclaim to have all the answers; however, I did give a historical reference for comparison.  Look at the leadership following Noriega as I mentioned, not unlike the interests the US has in Iraq...


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## Slim (28 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> Yes I included myself.   And no I did not proclaim to have all the answers; however, I did give a historical reference for comparison.   Look at the leadership following Noriega as I mentioned, not unlike the interests the US has in Iraq...



Why is it that people like you bitch and whine about the U.S. being the big bad wolf and never say a word about all the third world shithole tyrants who are doing the same things that Saddam did before he was ousted? Why do we never see a protest about any of that?!


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## CivU (28 Jan 2005)

I don't support Saddam or any tyrannical dictator as you seem to suggest.  But I think when you look objectively, the United States are presently steam rolling the World with a foreign policy directed around ensuring American hegemony.  Was Iraq necessary? Will Iran or South Korea be necessary? No...but will they happen...Inevitably, yes...


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## Jarnhamar (28 Jan 2005)

> But thats beside the point, as you have no idea as to the extent of my life experience...



I've found you can often tell a lot about someones life experiences from the posts and comments they leave.


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## Glorified Ape (29 Jan 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Why do we never see a protest about any of that?!



You do. Look up Amnesty International's protest rosters and I'm sure you'll find they're quite busy.


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## 1feral1 (29 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> You honestly think that after several years and almost 1500 American lives the United States is going to permit a leader to gain power in Iraq that is not on board with their plans for the country...?   I don't think I'm the one out of touch with whats happening...



Why don'y you try passing on your TASTELESS statement to the families of US soldiers killed! Then see how far you get. How dare you rubbish fallen Allied soldiers in such a sickening statement. They had more guts than you ever will!

RANT ON: 

I have kept my mouth shut for now but the attitude you seem to have in these posts and towards other members is in very bad taste, and I don't like it one bit, especially coming from a snotty nosed OCDT. If you want to be an officer pal, and a leader of men, bloody accept the role, not the arrogance. 

You got a lot to learn about life. There is more to life than silly theories and the contents of a textbook. Try to maybe speak to people like you would expect to be spoken to. If you can't do at least that, well maybe its time to move on from here.

As for your life experience, I got more time infront of a urinal in the Mess than you got in life. What life experience does an OCDT have?   : I am sure you'll go far in your career :crybaby:

RANT OFF:

Wes


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## Jungle (29 Jan 2005)

CivU said:
			
		

> I don't support Saddam or any tyrannical dictator as you seem to suggest.   But I think when you look objectively, the United States are presently steam rolling the World with a foreign policy directed around ensuring American hegemony.   Was Iraq necessary? Will Iran or *South Korea* be necessary? No...but will they happen...Inevitably, yes...


SOUTH korea ?? That was taken care of 50 years ago... you're out to lunch, kid !!! Take a break from posting, and take the time to read and learn. As a future (?) officer, the first thing you need to realize is that loyalty and respect are 2-way streets.


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## CivU (29 Jan 2005)

South Korea was a typo.  I meant to say North.  Such is life.

As for, "What life experience does an OCDT have?"

This sums up how narrow minded you obviously are.  Being an OCdt does not mean that I am either young or inexperienced.  It means that at the present time I am attending university and undergoing phase training.  Plenty of Officer Cadets are in their 30's and 40's...

You strike me as the type of person who obviously feels that because they are older there is nothing that they can gain from someone younger.  It's unfortunate, because you probably miss out on a lot of insightful people you pass off as merely being juvenile.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2005)

I'm probably one of the oldest here, and I still learn new things....even apply them once in a while. However, one of the things I learned a long, long time ago was that Officer Cadets, with attitude, no matter their age seldom make it through their Phase training. Almost never in fact, after running into a crusty old WO that returns the attitude in kind, only stepped up several notches.


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## CivU (29 Jan 2005)

I think your confusing a difference of opinion with attitude.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2005)

I don't think so, but that's my opinion


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## winchable (29 Jan 2005)

Apart from venturing far off topic this thread is going to turn into a chest poker,
I'm locking it for the time being.


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