# Backpay for Cpls



## warlordnik (20 Mar 2012)

Good day,
I am a recent Cpl and was wondering if I am entitled to backpay to the 4 year service mark when I became eligible for promotion from Pte to Cpl.  Several sources have told me that as long as my prereqs were met that I should be getting backpaid.  But I want to be sure and I am away from my unit.

I was QL5 qualified, no medical cats, no disciplinary issues, fitness test passed, and 4 years of service in Dec. But my promotion papers were lost in the shuffle (I'm told) and I just got promoted "effective" mid-March.  Am I entitled to 3 months backpay?

I've checked CFAO 49-4 and all that tells me is that all Pte are entitled to promotion to Cpl after 4 years unless your CO makes a case for not giving you one.  It doesn't mention anything specifically about backpay.

Can someone please answer this question and with references if possible?


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## Occam (20 Mar 2012)

Yes, if you met all the prereqs, you should have gotten back pay to the 48-month point.  That also becomes your seniority date.


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## warlordnik (20 Mar 2012)

Thanks Occam,

My seniority date says mid-March as well, next to my effective date for my promotion on my MPRR.  I am sure that my seniority date was Dec and thats what got my boss to put in my paperwork 3 months ago.

Anybody else have this issue and got the backpay?  Did you have to go through administrative forms to get it or just visit your unit's OR?

Thanks in advance!


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## PMedMoe (20 Mar 2012)

I always thought you got promoted when you got promoted.  Back pay _may_ come into effect if the promotion itself was backdated.  Otherwise, people could just put up their Cpls when they hit the 48 month mark.


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## armyvern (20 Mar 2012)

warlordnik said:
			
		

> Thanks Occam,
> 
> My seniority date says mid-March as well, next to my effective date for my promotion on my MPRR.  I am sure that my seniority date was Dec and thats what got my boss to put in my paperwork 3 months ago.
> 
> ...



You're going to fuck with their merit list ...

Because, if you are backdated (as you SHOULD be if you met the pre-reqs), they need to consider you in the rankings and will also have to write you an annual PER.

My soul are you ever a pain in the ass.  8)

Get ahold of your supervisor and bring this up ASAP. If you met the pre-reqs, it should have been backdated to the 48 mos mark.


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## armyvern (20 Mar 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I always thought you got promoted when you got promoted.  Back pay _may_ come into effect if the promotion itself was backdated.  Otherwise, people could just put up their Cpls when they hit the 48 month mark.



Ptes are to be promoted at the 48 month of service mark unless they do not meet the pre-reqs. If they are on a Cat or need a fitness test etc, their effective date would be the date they "complied" with all pre-reqs after the 48 month mark has passed. If they meet the pre-reqs on the 48 month date, that's when they get.

If the paperwork has not been signed off until after that 48 month mark (because some supervisor didn't have their shit together and failed to send the file up in a timely manner for signatures) then obviously it can not presented until it has been signed off ... but that is not supposed to have any effect on the "effective" date. In essence, the member is not supposed to be penalized for a file "lagging" or languishing on a desk somewhere.


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## warlordnik (20 Mar 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You're going to frig with their merit list ...
> 
> Because, if you are backdated (as you SHOULD be if you met the pre-reqs), they need to consider you in the rankings and will also have to write you an annual PER.
> 
> ...



Thanks ArmyVern!

Yeah, you don't have to worry about the PER!  I brought it up as soon as I got the the promotion and they are giving me one (but I'll believe it when I see it).  Not that a PER would have been a big deal but I had a tour last year and two courses!  Those are points I would not want to have gone to waste!!

Thanks for the comments!


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## Brasidas (20 Mar 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You're going to frig with their merit list ...
> 
> Because, if you are backdated (as you SHOULD be if you met the pre-reqs), they need to consider you in the rankings and will also have to write you an annual PER.
> 
> ...



Do you know where to find a reference to that effect?

For someone who was consistently top-third in their courses, received positive performance evaluations, and didn't get a backdated promotion after meeting their pre-reqs?

My IPC date on my MPRR was the date of my meeting the pre-reqs for corporal. It was years later "corrected" to two months later, the apparent effective date of my promotion, after I raised a fuss that I wasn't getting paid at my new IPC.

I've stirred up a hornet's nest about it twice, but it went nowhere.


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## PMedMoe (20 Mar 2012)

When I rejoined in June '95, I was given Pte IPC 3.  My previous time calculation was a few days shy of four years (I won't even go into how much they screwed _that_ up).  By the "48 month" rule, I should have received my promotion in June of '96 (or even earlier).  I received my promotion to Cpl in Oct '96.........with no back pay.  So I would also be interested in seeing a reference.*

As a matter of fact, I know people who met the pre-reqs, got promoted, went on course, got RTU'd and demoted to Pte.  If it's only a matter of time in and QL4 qual (as it was for Med Techs), how does that happen?

*No, I'm not going to fight for back pay.  Just interested.


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## Occam (20 Mar 2012)

I can't get into CBIs or A-PM-245 right now (and I think that's where you'll find it), but what it comes down to is this:

Promotion to Corporal is the only promotion that (other than Pte(T)) is made "On request".

As long as you make the request before the 48-month point (and meet the prerequisites), then any delays to your promotion are "due to service reasons", and you're entitled to Acting/Lacking rank until such time as you become substantively promoted.  When promotion to substantive rank is immediately preceded by acting rank, for seniority purposes, you're backdated to the 48-month mark, regardless of the date of substantive promotion - that part is in CFAO 49-4 para 23(a).


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Mar 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You're going to frig with their merit list ...
> 
> Because, if you are backdated (as you SHOULD be if you met the pre-reqs), they need to consider you in the rankings and will also have to write you an annual PER.
> 
> ...


Vern I'll back you up on this one.
Yes it should be backdated, in fact the paperwork should have been drawn up for the 48 month mark (36 if you're in 1 CMBG because for some damned reason accelerated has become the norm out west).  Either way promoted in Dec or March he still gets an annual PER (prom occurred prior to 1 Apr) although that shouldn't affect the boards for this year as he needs 2 to get past the electronic selection.

The issue here does become seniority. All Cpl and above for NCM's and Capt and above for Offr seniority begins on 1 Jan of the year they were promoted, in this particular soldiers case his seniority date should be 1 Jan 11, vice 1 Jan 12.

My Two Cents


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## armyvern (20 Mar 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> Vern I'll back you up on this one.
> Yes it should be backdated, in fact the paperwork should have been drawn up for the 48 month mark (36 if you're in 1 CMBG because for some damned reason accelerated has become the norm out west).  Either way promoted in Dec or March he still gets an annual PER (prom occurred prior to 1 Apr) although that shouldn't affect the boards for this year as he needs 2 to get past the electronic selection.
> 
> The issue here does become seniority. All Cpl and above for NCM's and Capt and above for Offr seniority begins on 1 Jan of the year they were promoted, in this particular soldiers case his seniority date should be 1 Jan 11, vice 1 Jan 12.
> ...



Agree with above, but have addressed the "March" promotion dates previously with the gawds that govern such in Ottawa. Their written response was that if mbr had not had a period of observation where he had actually "performed" the tasks and job required of the "Cpl" rank, then the PER was not to be written. Have had this situation with a mbr who was promoted eff 02 Mar and who then proceeded on PATA ~ around 20 March. NDHQ's response was, "no PER is to be written" (they didn't leave room for choice) when they found out a PER was be written on him.


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Mar 2012)

Ugh, these guys need to gain some consistency, the last time I asked granted this was 2 APS ago the only thing they would let us get away with was a PER exemption for period not observed.


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## Occam (20 Mar 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> The issue here does become seniority. All Cpl and above for NCM's and Capt and above for Offr seniority begins on 1 Jan of the year they were promoted, in this particular soldiers case his seniority date should be 1 Jan 11, vice 1 Jan 12.



Going to differ with you here, seniority for Cpls is the date of promotion; MCpl/MS and above is 1 Jan the year of promotion.  See CFAO 49-4 para 23.


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## armyvern (20 Mar 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> Ugh, these guys need to gain some consistency, the last time I asked granted this was 2 APS ago the only thing they would let us get away with was a PER exemption for period not observed.



Yes, we had to write an exemption PER for him because he had not been observed actually working as a Cpl for enough time. At the time, our Unit was writing a PER and was going to include the effective date of his promotion in the appropriate block as required by CFPAS. NDHQ heard and directed that an exemption be written vice an actual scored PER as a couple of weeks work at the rank did not meet the requirements for observation of "work performed at the PER rank level".

Explains why pers promoted while deployed etc often find a theatre PER written based upon their lower rank level as that is the rank level that their observed work occured at.


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## armyvern (20 Mar 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> Going to differ with you here, seniority for Cpls is the date of promotion; MCpl/MS and above is 1 Jan the year of promotion.  See CFAO 49-4 para 23.



That's true.


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Mar 2012)

You wouldn't be speaking of the great PER debate in November would you. (god how could anyone forget) Although I got lucky no PER season this year for me.


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## brihard (20 Mar 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Explains why pers promoted while deployed etc often find a theatre PER written based upon their lower rank level as that is the rank level that their observed work occured at.



Damn, that would have been nice. I was promoted about a month from the end of mine. Still a PER I'm happy with, particularly the narrative, but the bubbles were not as aesthetically pleasing as they could have been.


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## armyvern (20 Mar 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Damn, that would have been nice. I was promoted about a month from the end of mine. Still a PER I'm happy with, particularly the narrative, but the bubbles were not as aesthetically pleasing as they could have been.



Ahh, but see ... if you actually *worked* (ie: didn't spend it on leave etc) at the higher rank level for a 30 day period, that could certainly be considered adequate and observable.


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## armyvern (20 Mar 2012)

Not_So_Arty_Newbie said:
			
		

> You wouldn't be speaking of the great PER debate in November would you. (god how could anyone forget) Although I got lucky no PER season this year for me.



 The very one. Wasn't it fun?  

And, no PERs for me this year either ... just boards; I have a big mouth, so the CoC is taking me anyway. Go figure.  8)


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## brihard (21 Mar 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Ahh, but see ... if you actually *worked*



Hm, let's be careful throwing around terminology here. I know what the rest of the organization thought about the force protection concept of 'work'.  ;D


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## CountDC (21 Mar 2012)

Interesting reading.

If your effective date of promotion is in March then you will not get backpay.  Your pay will change with the effective date so you would have to get the unit to amend your date.  A good supervisor and CO would have had it correct if they really wanted to take care of you and felt you earned it but mistakes do happen.

Promotion, even to Cpl, is not an entitlement.  You mentioned reading CFAO 49-04 - where does it say it is an entitlement? Para 8 states:

8. In accordance with QR&O 11.02, a member may not be promoted unless the following conditions are met:

a. an appropriate vacancy in the total establishment for the component exists: 
b. the member is recommended by the appropriate authority; and 
c. the member meets such promotion standards and other conditions as the CDS may prescribe

For b that would be your CO.  In essence you could not be promoted until the CO said yes.

Also have not found anything in there saying you are entitled to AL/Cpl until substantive.  A correction on CFAO 49-4 23(a) - it does not specify that you're backdated to the 48 month mark - it states your seniority date will be the date promoted to acting lacking.

What you actually need is not a backdating of promotion but a correction to the effective date.  Basically backdating is usually the result of not having the quals until after your date (and usually applies to officers), corrections are adjustments due to admin or other errors (such as the paperwork going astray). (Picky Picky)

If promoted prior to the end of the PER year (31 Mar) the PER is supposed to be done at the new rank which did not sit well with my supervisors when I was promoted to MS middle March of that year.  They were required to redo my PER that they had already completed as a LS and did not feel it was fair to me to receive a MS PER when I had been employed at the lower rank for the year.  I believe CFPAS Handbook Article 308 is still in effect (although may have been changed as this is a few years old):

the rank used will be the current rank held by the member at the end of the
reporting period with the exception of a rank designated “while so employed”
(see CFPAS Policy Directive para 22 “While so Employed”);

The promotion date is noted in Section 3 (?) Details of Employment/New Quals

All said and done - if all the information you have provided is correct then the norm would be for your promotion effective date to be Dec (the 48 month mark), your unit can do a correction for the CO to sign (and perhaps slap them for the error) and then process so that you get pay adjusted back to the corrected effective date.  You should have a PER written as a Cpl - whether this is good or bad for you only time will tell. Mine turned out to be good for me in the long run.

Now go get them and good luck.


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