# House Hunting Trip (HHT) Lore (merged)



## stoker34 (7 Jun 2006)

Hi everyone, I am waiting for a phone call from the CAFRC as I re-enlist as a marine mechanic in Esquimalt, BC.  I left the Navy in 1995.  I want to know how the House hunting trip works when you re-enlist fully qualified.  I know when you start fro stcratch with BMQ, all these steps come together as you go but when you skip BMQ and QL3, when do you get to go with your family for the HHT??  Do they send me to Esquimalt first to start my posting and then fly my family a few weeks later to look for a place to stay or do I get to fly over there with my family for a week before I go to my posting??  My wife doesn't know anything about being a military wife and she is a bite concerned about the whole "moving away fast" kind of thing.  BTW, all the recruting process is done, I am on the merit list, expecting a call any day now.  They told me I would get the call within 2 weeks from now.

Thanks for your input!

Stoker34, montreal.


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## Centurian1985 (7 Jun 2006)

Best way to find out is to call the base and ask to speak to the Remax HHT reps.


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## stoker34 (7 Jun 2006)

yeah, thanks for the tip, I will call tomorrow...


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## coolbreeze (7 Mar 2007)

I am just about finished my first TOS. I am realeasing and re-enlisting to P-RES. Regarding my entitlements, do you get a house hunting trip back to where you enlisted in the first place?


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## Michael OLeary (7 Mar 2007)

Addendum 3: Move to Intended Place of Residence on Release (IPR)



> *A3.07	Criteria Table*
> 
> The following table depicts the IPR relocation benefits, based on period of continuous Regular Force service and appropriate release item.
> 
> ...


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## coolbreeze (8 Mar 2007)

Thanx for the quick reply. Respect.


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## tree hugger (27 Jul 2008)

Hey,

If you are authorized to have a 7 day HHT (5 days +2 days travel), and you complete it much quicker, I understand that you can put the money saved (food, incidentals, lodging) into your personal/ customized relocation fund.  I read though that this is capped at $250.  My question is, is this $250 per day or $250 total?

Thanks!  

-th


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## aesop081 (27 Jul 2008)

I've done this 5 times.........so heres my advice :

Take the full 7 days.

The 250 aint worth it.


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## PMedMoe (27 Jul 2008)

I agree, if you're done the HHT, just have a little "vacation" instead.  Does this mean you found a house?


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## kincanucks (27 Jul 2008)

So you both are advocating that he commit fraud?


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## aesop081 (27 Jul 2008)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> So you both are advocating that he commit fraud?



Nope. On all my HHTs i have found a place fairly quickly but , in my experience, theres always something else that should be done with your time there to smoothen the transition. Wether its the kid's school, wife's job, setting up utilities and such at the new location, etc,etc,etc........

Besides, as i have found out recently, changing your flights on such short notice costs more than the money DND would save.


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## kincanucks (27 Jul 2008)

Just pulling your chain. ;D


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## aesop081 (27 Jul 2008)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Just pulling your chain. ;D



I hate you..........


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## tree hugger (27 Jul 2008)

Home inspection has gone hinky.  Gotta stay at least one more night....


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## aesop081 (27 Jul 2008)

tree hugger said:
			
		

> Home inspection has gone hinky.  Gotta stay at least one more night....



......and thats why you stay the entire time.

I love it when i'm right.


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## PMedMoe (27 Jul 2008)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> So you both are advocating that he she commit fraud?



Nope, the bank/lawyer/inspection stuff usually takes at least a day or so, which means you pretty much have to put your offer in on the Wednesday of your HHT.  While you're waiting for the bank/lawyer/inspection stuff, if you have a cell phone, you can be having a "vacation" (hence the reason I put it in quotation marks).  ;D

Want to talk about fraud?  I would love to see all those people busted who fly home on HLTA but claim the mileage so they will get more money.    
I used to only get about $167 back for a $600 flight from Ottawa to Fredericton.   :-\


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## Spring_bok (12 Aug 2008)

In answering the original question, it is $250 total.  I took it last time only because we had made an offer on a house before we left and so the process was shortened significantly.


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## CountDC (13 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nope. On all my HHTs i have found a place fairly quickly but , in my experience, theres always something else that should be done with your time there to smoothen the transition. Wether its the kid's school, wife's job, setting up utilities and such at the new location, etc,etc,etc........
> 
> Besides, as i have found out recently, changing your flights on such short notice costs more than the money DND would save.



ahh - but the HHT is not for this, it is only for finding living accm - once you have secured a place your HHT ends and you are suposed to return home. I secured my place the very last day of my HHT and headed home - right by the book.  >


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## trencher (20 May 2009)

I have a quick question i want answered. If you can not answer it Please don't post useless responces.

We only have 1 hour with IRPP cause the course messed up our student admin periods.

I am getting posted in a month and im curious. My plan is to move to the shacks right away and leave my F and E at there current location,then proceed to look for a house. Now when i get to my posting can i use my house hounding trip at anytime i submit a memo ? Also can i do my own move were the military will give me a lump sum move?

If anyone can answer these questions post up your answer if you can't hit the next topic button 

Thanks.


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## Sub_Guy (20 May 2009)

1 hour is plenty of time for your IRP rep to answer your question.

I would never take any answer you get from army.ca as policies change.  

You would get a better response if you typed these questions in an email and fired them off to your IRP consultant, instead of posting them on army.ca and demanding an answer.

If you have time to post here, then you have time to send an email to IRP.


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## BinRat55 (27 May 2009)

Why would you need a house "hunting" trip if you will already be living there?


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## aesop081 (9 Jun 2009)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Why would you need a house "hunting" trip if you will already be living there?



The OP is likely proceeding to the new location on IR and intends to move F&E/ dependants later on. Thus the OP is entitled to an HHT like everyone else where he gets time off work and bring the significant other to the new location to look for suitable housing.


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## Sub_Guy (9 Jun 2009)

Being on IR and getting a house hunting trip, sounds like the IRP folks left that policy alone, I am sure they can save some money if they scrap that option.   We will get that kick in the junk with next years policy. 

You shouldn't have to submit a memo for the house hunting trip, *shakes head* what am I thinking, the memo is the back bone of the CF.  It's the only place where you would have to submit a memo, requesting a memo writing course.  

You might want to read through the IRP policy manual, heck get one for the wife too.  I bet you will find that all your questions will be answered.  You should also be familiar with all the benefits and options you will have available to you.  I find my IRP consultant to be somewhat secretive when it comes to that stuff.  For a real kick have a read through the CF Leave Manual so you will be familiar with your leave entitlements (IR posting and going back to get your F&E).


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## PMedMoe (9 Jun 2009)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Being on IR and getting a house hunting trip, sounds like the IRP folks left that policy alone, I am sure they can save some money if they scrap that option.   We will get that kick in the junk with next years policy.



Actually, they just changed that _this_ year, and I, for one, am quite happy about it, even though it's too late for me.

It's not easy to find a place to live, sight unseen, and not knowing the area makes it harder.  I'm just glad I was posted to Ottawa and not Vancouver (or some other city I'm not familiar with).  Also, I had a good boss who gave me a day off to come up and check places.  I will say the SE/IR section at CFSU(O) (at least the clerk I was assigned to) did not help at all.


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## goingcrazy (31 Jan 2010)

I'm hoping somebody will be able to explain to me the new situation my family and I have found ourselves.
My husband joined in March of '09 and left promptly for St. Jean since then he as been in Borden completing his 3's. About 7 weeks ago we were told that he would be posted to Dundurn. We promptly applied for a PMQ and heard nothing. After a few weeks and a couple applications we were told one would not be available until June or August and that we were 4th in line. We were then given our options and chose to go with the house hunting trip so we can live together as a family again. Please keep in mind that it's been 11 months since we've lived together. We were notified this Friday that he was pretty much denied his HHT and if we wanted one I would have to leave by myself on Sunday and take care of it all myself. This left me with 1 day to find a sitter for our 2 children for a week not to mention I really don't feel comfortable buying a house for our family without my husband. So as it stands, he finishes his 3's and the next day he fly's out for an undetermined amount of time without the chance to say goodbye to his family. At least when he was in Borden he could come home every few weeks to see the children but now this option is gone. He has also been told that when he gets there he has 7 days to find his living arrangements which will have to be fully furnished since I cannot ship him our stuff since I will still need it while he is gone. What bothers me the most is that the other person who got posted to Dundurn is getting a HHT so what are we being penalized for? I understand that they are going to give us x amount to help pay for my husbands living quarters but why should we have to have 2 houses? And do they really expect us to stay separated for up to 19 months? Can anyone explain why this is going on? I saw the posting message and it says that we can move with him so why are we not being given the option? I know there is much that I don't know which is why I am asking. Sorry for my rant and I hope that it doesn't sound like I'm just complaining. We knew there was going to be separations but first we were told 4 months then wait another 7 and now this. 

I really appreciate any info I can get.


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Jan 2010)

Unfortunatelym this is something your husband will have to deal with thru his Chain of Command.  I understand your frustration however.

Could it be that his COS (change of status) date is now less than 30 days away?  If so, I believe that would cause the denial of the HHT, as I went thru something similar a few years ago.  The simple fix was to request a new COS date, via a memo, thru the chain o command explaining why a change of COS date is required (to provide time for HHT, to move family, etc).

Not knowing the exact details, this is one reason I know a HHT can be denied, I believe that the members COS date must be more than 30 calendar days away.  

Hopefully one of the mbrs with more current and accurate info on IRP will be able to chime in.  In the mean time, the link below has previous years IRP directives listed.  I don't see one for the 2010 APS (Active Posting Season) yet.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/cfirp-prifc-eng.asp


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## goingcrazy (31 Jan 2010)

Thank you very much for your quick response, believe it or not it makes perfect sense and has calmed me down quite a bit knowing that there could be an easy solution. When your in the situation it's hard to sometimes see the logical side of things.


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## captloadie (1 Feb 2010)

The worst case scenario is that your husband goes to Dundurn, settles in to his new aprtment (he should not sign a 1 year lease), and then take time to find a place for you all. It actually is less stressful than trying to cram a house hunting trip into 5 days. He needs to ask to go unaccompanied for up to six months, as opposed to IR. When he finds a place, he can request the time off to go back to your current location, pack up the house, move to the new location and unpack. 

It's not the best solution, but it isn't the worse either.


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## goingcrazy (2 Feb 2010)

Just wanted to say thanks again. The COS date has been changed and we are now approved for the HHT. Amazing how something so simple can cause so many sleepless nights.


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## ammocat (2 Feb 2010)

I know a guy who was on his 3's and was also going to be posted to Dundurn in Feb, I think around 11 Feb, but luckily he is now going to Bedford, so everything has changed.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Feb 2010)

goingcrazy said:
			
		

> Just wanted to say thanks again. The COS date has been changed and we are now approved for the HHT. Amazing how something so simple can cause so many sleepless nights.



Hope you have a great HHT.


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## Spartiatis (18 Mar 2011)

I just wanted to share some tips in regards to prepping yourself for upcoming HHT?, for some it might be a new process, while others are well versed in the whole process. Part of the process is arranging for financing for your new purchase in your new location:

1 - have your IRP meeting and have get a firm understanding of your financial worksheet (from Brookfield GRS) and envelope allocation
2 - talk to your real estate agent to list your house (if applicable)
3 - get pre-approved in advance of your house hunting trip. This is very important for 2 reasons:
      i ) A pre-approval will let you know the maximum amount you can afford to borrow (and thus your price range) based on your income,      debts, and credit.
      ii) A pre-approval will guarantee a mortgage rate for 3 or 4 months. This is crutial if rates are higher when you purchase.
4 - gather all req'd documents to firm your mortgage financing:
      i ) Paystubs / T4
      ii ) sale agreement for your property (if applicable)
      iii ) bank statements
      iv ) financial worksheet from Brookfield.

** one item you need to be aware of is, as part of the IRP Relocation Program (through Brookfield) you are able to benefit from a Mortgage Interest Buydown (MIB) + a Mortgage Interest Subsidy (MIS) for the new mortgage you get. What this means is, you can use your personalized fund (tax free) towards buying down your mortgage rate (MIB) and from there, you can use your customized funds towards subsidizing your mortgage rate even further without a taxable benefit. You can ask your IRP rep directly or contact Group Mortgage Plan directly, as they are able to apply the MIS component.

5 - Once you've arranged your financing in advance, there should be no unpleasant surprises, or headaches regading getting approved or not when purchasing a house. Happy house-hunting.


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## PuckChaser (19 Mar 2011)

Good info, thanks.

For the benefit of the forum, can you post a little bit of your background? Based on your post history, you seem to work in/around the mortgage/realty industry and a quick post with your qualifications and experience will lend a lot more credibility to your posts.


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## Spartiatis (19 Mar 2011)

I work in the mortgage financing industry, specializing in IRP relocations; (DND/RCMP/GOC). I've been helping DND members with their relocations for the past 7 years, thus I'm very familiar with the IRP program and how to best use the funds in your financial worksheets towards your mortgage. I work with Brookfield relocations (formerly Royal Lepage Relocations) to make sure the process goes as smooth as possible.

I came across this site recently and thought it would be a good forum to provide any advice on these matters or answer questions/concerns.

Thanks
T


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## SeaKingTacco (19 Mar 2011)

> I work with Brookfield relocations (formerly Royal Lepage Relocations) to make sure the process goes as smooth as possible.



Titan- as someone who moved last APS under BGRS, you have your work cut out for you...


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## ServingYou.ca (19 Mar 2011)

Related to the post above there are differences between getting a pre-approval and getting pre-qualified. Different lenders have different processes for the pre-approvals.  One of my lenders is automated and therefore is nothing more than a rate hold. 

I prefer to pre-qualify my clients to make sure everything is as smooth as can be and not only the rate is held, making sure there are no surprises before closing day.

It definitely is worth the CF members on this board to make sure they are contacting a mortgage professional to make sure the benefits afforded to them are properly translated into the mortgage they commit to.  

I myself am a broker that can assist and answer the questions as necessary, after reading through many posts on this site, it does seem that many members would benefit from having a mortgage professional work for them in this process and assist them.


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## Pusser (19 Mar 2011)

In addition to the financial issues, I would also suggest that anyone going on an HHT also hit the MLS website weeks in advance of the trip and start looking at houses and neighbourhoods.  An HHT is too short to hit the ground cold.  You need to a have short list prepared ahead of time and have a real estate agent already lined up.  Ideally, you and your agent will have been in contact for some time before the trip so that as soon as you arrive on location you can start looking at the houses on your short list.  If you do it right, you'll have your house in three days and can spend the other two days arranging hook-ups, registering for schools, etc.


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## Spartiatis (20 Mar 2011)

Lots of good advice, along with getting in contact with a mortgage professional before hand, its always a good idea to get started early on MLS and contact a real estate agent in your new location. Also, it is recommended highly that you use a lawyer on the IRP approved list. 

Cheers
T


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## Cpl4Life (20 Mar 2011)

This is an excellent, thought provoking thread.

The only point I can ad, is that what you qualify for in no way means that is the max you can afford.  I qualify for *way* more than I can actually afford.   I can't stress this enough; know your budget and what you and your family can afford for housing before looking at houses, and don't forget taxes, utilities, maintenance, etc. and don't let anyone but you (and your spouse) tell you what you can and can not afford!!


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## Pusser (21 Mar 2011)

Nix said:
			
		

> This is an excellent, thought provoking thread.
> 
> The only point I can ad, is that what you qualify for in no way means that is the max you can afford.  I qualify for *way* more than I can actually afford.   I can't stress this enough; know your budget and what you and your family can afford for housing before looking at houses, and don't forget taxes, utilities, maintenance, etc. and don't let anyone but you (and your spouse) tell you what you can and can not afford!!



Excellent point.  The only data that banks look at when determining debt ratio (the key determinant of whether of how much moneyn they will lend you) is your current household income, your current debt and your projected heating costs.  They make no differentiation between a couple of DINKs or the family with five kids if the household income is the same.


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## DaisyDee (29 May 2011)

We may end up eating this, hopefully not but it sounds like we screwed up. We flew in to Ottawa and stayed overnight before heading to Petawawa the next day. We stayed in Ottawa overnight on the way back so we wouldn't have to drive in weekday traffic. We booked an extended trip at the encouragement (nearly insistence) of our IRP rep, we were told it's much easier to prebook an extended trip than trying to extend it once we're there if need be.

Apparently you have to drive straight to Petawawa and not stay in Ottawa on your HHT if you are posted to Petawawa. There is no policy on this (I asked IRP and my husband checked with the IRP mediator).

Because of this, They won't cover anything, not even our food allowances or car rental for the days we stayed in Ottawa,  not even out of custom or personalized and not even the amount we would have received for staying in Petawawa.

Part of me thinks we should just accept we are out $800+ and move on, but part of me wonders if there is no policy guiding us or IRP on this, should we appeal? Does anyone here have experience with this?

Please don't scold me for being stupid, I realize now we should have asked, but I read the policy and move book so much I know them nearly off by heart, so I was acting in good faith at the time.

Thank you,
Daisy


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## Franko (29 May 2011)

Someone didn't tell you that they only covered the geo foot print of Pet - Arnprior/ Eganville/ Deep river.

I don't know if there is any way to recoup the costs. You may be out the $800.

Regards


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## AmmoTech90 (29 May 2011)

I would into the maximum travel time.  You are only expected to travel so far and for so long in a day.  Considering it is only 1:45 or 2:00 hours to Pet from Ottawa  you would have to make a good case for not making that drive after a flight within Canada.
How does two nights in Ottawa cost $800 anyway.  Are they refusing to pay anything including the stay in Pet?


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## Zoomie (29 May 2011)

If you can't get the hotels covered, you shouldn't be out the cost of food and car rental.  

What time did your flight arrive at Ottawa?  What time was your flight leaving Ottawa?

If your advisor did not adequately advise you - tell him/her to fix it.


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## Strike (29 May 2011)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> I would into the maximum travel time.  You are only expected to travel so far and for so long in a day.  Considering it is only 1:45 or 2:00 hours to Pet from Ottawa  you would have to make a good case for not making that drive after a flight within Canada.
> How does two nights in Ottawa cost $800 anyway.  Are they refusing to pay anything including the stay in Pet?



I think the cost also includes meals and car rental for those days.

You may be able to argue the travel-time thing if, say, you were flying in from out west and included layovers.  Maybe even depending on the time you got in to Ottawa and then to Pet.  If you got into Ottawa after regular working hours and then got to Pet before the day got going you could argue that there was no time lost on the HHT.  Really, are you going to do a walk through of a house at 2100 hrs or 0700 in the morning?

It's slime, but something to consider.  Of course, we all know how flexible IRP is, so I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.


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## captloadie (30 May 2011)

IRP takes a pretty hard line on this. There have been cases in the past where members have used the extra days to take a little vacation at the crown's expense, not in the location where they were supposed to be doing the HHT. So the result is IRP denies first, and sometimes ask questions later. If you have a strong case for not being able to complete he trip in one day, you can send a memo to the Base/Wing person delegated to liaise with IRP when there is a dispute.


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## Anny (31 May 2011)

We had a similar thing happen on our HHT.  I was sick for most of the HHT, I lied in the hotel bed for over 2/3 of the trip, couldn't keep food down and ended up visiting the hospital.  We were flying out of Toronto, so on a good day when I was able to travel, since we had bought a house already and had done all we could on our HHT, we drove to Toronto and stayed there a few nights before flying out.  I stayed in the hotel room, in bed, nearly the whole time.  Big mistake!  We were denied everything for three days, and ended up out of pocket for over $1000.  I too asked where it said we had to stay near Borden, and was told there was no policy.  But I was supposed to have asked our IRP rep if we could stay in Toronto.  I had the booklets they give you with me, and since I was in bed all day anyway, I read them cover to cover and it said nothing about having to stay with in a certain area, and since we were flying out of Toronto anyway, why would we even think we were doing anything wrong??  The base liason person was awful, the memo we received back was very harsh and basically said we were not in the approved area, so they would not reimburse anything, period.  It was a hard lesson which I thought was very unfair.  I don't know if there's anything you can do at this point, and I'm so sorry you are going through the same b.s.  You would think they would put something in the damn policy by now if this is happening to a fair number of people.  I would completely understand if you took off and stayed in a totally different place than you were flying out of, but it sounds like thats not what you were doing.


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## captloadie (31 May 2011)

It is unfortunate that your HHT was not the best experience, but think of it from the CF point of view. You were being paid to do a HHT, in Borden. You decided that it was better to be sick and stay in a Hotel in TO instead of Barrie, where in theory, the service member could have been doing other stuff (getting schools set up, checking into insurance, organizing the utilities, etc.). At the least someone should have called IRP to inform them of the problem. If the posting had been Cold Lake, would you have gone to Edmonton and stayed there for 3 days until the flight out? Would you have thought it reasonable then?

I can reverse the question you posed below and ask does it say anywhere in the policy you can stay in hotels outside the geographical area of the base?


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## Anny (31 May 2011)

Sorry I was not clear, there was one day when I was well enough to travel by car, and so we took advantage of it, considering we had taken care of the house purchase (and registering for school, getting insurance quotes, and got as much information as we could for the utilities, and a fair bit more than this), it was reasonable in our eyes to head towards Toronto. 

In our case, I can certainly see the funds being denied if we travelled to say Montreal for a few days, or some other place clearly out of our travel route, expecting it to all be covered on the CF's dime, but, just as the OP stated she was, we believed we were acting in good faith and simply getting closer to the airport for our flight out.  Clearly the CF believes differently, but this does not mean I don't have a right to voice my concern about lack of policy surrounding our situation.  Like I mentioned, it was a hard lesson learned and one I would not make again.


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## MJP (31 May 2011)

Anny said:
			
		

> Sorry I was not clear, there was one day when I was well enough to travel by car, and so we took advantage of it, considering we had taken care of the house purchase (and registering for school, getting insurance quotes, and got as much information as we could for the utilities, and a fair bit more than this), it was reasonable in our eyes to head towards Toronto.
> 
> In our case, I can certainly see the funds being denied if we travelled to say Montreal for a few days, or some other place clearly out of our travel route, expecting it to all be covered on the CF's dime, but, just as the OP stated she was, we believed we were acting in good faith and simply getting closer to the airport for our flight out.  Clearly the CF believes differently, but this does not mean I don't have a right to voice my concern about lack of policy surrounding our situation.  Like I mentioned, it was a hard lesson learned and one I would not make again.



If all that stuff is done and you can leave early you are suppose to leave early unless they have changed the policy again (note I haven't read this years policy).  From the CF/TB point of view you were in the wrong despite the best of intentions and what you thought was reasonable.  I can certainly understand being sick an not being able to travel though, so another option to explore would be for you to see if it can be covered under any health plans you have considering you could have left early but didn't as you were sick.


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## DaisyDee (4 Jul 2011)

Apparently we can appeal through DCBA, whoever that is, but whenever DH or I ask anyone how to do this, they scold us.  One person made me feel like they not only thought I am a complete idiot for not knowing this non-existent (at least to the point no one can show us anything concrete) policy, and that we are trying to rip off the system 

What really sucks about all this is we can really use that money now as we are expecting twins!  And I am also having trouble with the pregnancies so I'm thinking I have a much more important fight on my hands right now than $800 dollars.  It still makes me angry though how we are being treated, like they assume we are criminals trying to rip off the system and that we are stupid for not knowing we can't leave the area.  They really need to put this in the IRP booklets they hand out.  I read those books from front to back many times and this is not in the section on HHT at all.  Even the IRP person confirmed this.

Maybe we can appeal later, once everything calms down with my babies, but I am doubtful we will be reimbursed anything.  Hopefully there's no time limit on appeals, does anyone here know if there's a time limit?


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## aesop081 (4 Jul 2011)

From the IRP policy manual that is available when you log in to your secure site :



> The purpose of…an HHT..... is to…
> 
> secure accommodation at the *new place of duty * with the
> intent of ensuring a door-to-door move, thereby:



Deffinition of "place of duty", as per the IRP manual :



> Place of duty :
> 
> The place at which a CF member usually performs normal military duties and
> includes any place in the surrounding geographical area that is determined to
> ...



CFB Borden geographical area ( available through the IRP website) at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/borden-eng.asp



> BORDEN - ONTARIO
> Description:
> Start and include the city of Orillia;
> Westward on a line to Warminister, Moonstone, Vasey, Wyebridge, Perkinsfield, and Wahnekewaning Beach;
> ...


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## Ice97 (5 Jul 2011)

IRP is one of the worst things to happen to the Military in awhile....IMO.  I've had 2 moves with the Military....the first one was not through IRP and I had no problems what so ever.  The second one was through IRP....I was ready to strangle my agent before the end of it.  IRP likes to enforce all these rules and expect you to know every aspect of their policies....even when they don't.  If they don't tell you something...and you do something that isn't in the policy....they will penalize you for it...even though they should be taking the hit because they screwed up.  If I had my own way....I would not get posted again just so I wouldn't have to deal with that organization again


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## Occam (5 Jul 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> From the IRP policy manual that is available when you log in to your secure site :
> 
> Deffinition of "place of duty", as per the IRP manual :
> 
> CFB Borden geographical area ( available through the IRP website) at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/borden-eng.asp



If there's a point in there, I'm not sure what it is.  The person you posted immediately after is posted to Pet, not Borden.



			
				DaisyDee said:
			
		

> Apparently we can appeal through DCBA, whoever that is, but whenever DH or I ask anyone how to do this, they scold us.  One person made me feel like they not only thought I am a complete idiot for not knowing this non-existent (at least to the point no one can show us anything concrete) policy, and that we are trying to rip off the system
> 
> Maybe we can appeal later, once everything calms down with my babies, but I am doubtful we will be reimbursed anything.  Hopefully there's no time limit on appeals, does anyone here know if there's a time limit?



DCBA = Director Compensation and Benefits Administration.  Your Orderly Room should know how to get in touch with them, as should Brookfield.

As far as time limits, the move claim is supposed to be closed one year after the move is complete.  There's the grievance process as well.  Grievances should be submitted within six months after the member becomes aware of the issue being grieved, however that time limit can be extended if there are legitimate circumstances.


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## aesop081 (5 Jul 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> The person you posted immediately after is posted to Pet, not Borden.



My bad, thank you.


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## kratz (17 Jul 2011)

With so many IRP and Brookfield threads, I am not going to stat a new one just to ask my question.

As with any claim, actual and reasonable costs are reimbursed. The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny 
road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).
When you factor in the cheaper gas, meals and hotels compared to traveling through Canada, paying the road tolls is 
a small trade off IMO.

Does anyone, having traveled through the USA on a move, have any experience with this?


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## SupersonicMax (17 Jul 2011)

Hotel, I can buy.  The rest is paid per km (gas) or per day (meals).  No need for receipts for those.


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## Zoomie (17 Jul 2011)

kratz said:
			
		

> The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).


That's perfectly reasonable and per the manual.


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## aesop081 (17 Jul 2011)

kratz said:
			
		

> hotels compared to traveling through Canada,



It makes no difference WRT hotels. You do not get a flat rate for hotels when travelling through the US, you must provide receipts and reimbursed only for actual expenses (up to the max if you had been in Canada).

Your meals and kilometric rate are paid as if you were travelling in Canada. Every other costs incurred because of travelling the US route are on your own.


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## Pusser (18 Jul 2011)

kratz said:
			
		

> With so many IRP and Brookfield threads, I am not going to stat a new one just to ask my question.
> 
> As with any claim, actual and reasonable costs are reimbursed. The Brookfield representative is indicating they will deny
> road toll receipts as we chose to travel through the USA vice the Canadian route (direct route).
> ...



Brookfield is absolutely correct on this one.  The only one who benefits from cheaper gas and meals is you.  Because you are reimbursed a flat rate for meals and mileage, you can pocket the difference if you find a cheaper route.  I would argue that hotels are not a major consideration for a variety of reasons.  Brookfield's argument (and TreasuryBoard's for that matter) is that if you followed the intended route (i.e. through Canada) you would not have incurred the tolls and so they are not reimbursable.  Even in Canada, only necessary tolls are paid (i.e. toll roads where there are no reasonable alternative routes).


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## DaisyDee (27 Jul 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> That's perfectly reasonable and per the manual.



I'm not disputing if tolls are reimbursed or not in this persons case or not, but what manual are you referring to?  And where exactly is this?  I don't recall anything in the two IRP manuals except them saying they will reimburse for tolls.  Again again, I have to double check but I am curious if you don't mind.


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## Zoomie (27 Jul 2011)

BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.


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## DaisyDee (28 Jul 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.



So this is a manual they do not hand out to those moving?  If so, then it should be.  There is no way one could possible know every question to ask, and I take what is in the IRP hand outs as being correct, and it states they cover toll charges.  Not "Toll charges in certain circumstances", which would have me asking more questions because I am one of the few people who actually read and re-read those IRP booklets!

I am starting to become very frustrated with the lack of clarity during a move.  It's like we're given information, in writing, then told after the fact "oh but you can't do that.... or you have to do it THIS way in order to get reimbursed".... and, like I said, there's no way you can know every question to ask.  It would get as ridiculous as "Okay, I will be reimbursed for lodging but only if my husband and I don't sleep in the same bed" or "my kids have to eat breakfast standing up to get our daily meal allowance??".  Clearly these examples are very overboard, but I bet most people understand what I am getting at.  Simply saying "there's an IRP rep there for a reason" is not good enough, because I'm not going to stay on the cell phone the whole drive to our new place giving commentary to every action so we can ensure I'm not breaking any policies.

If I was not being reimbursed for tolls because it's not the shortest direct route, if I knew ahead of time, that is fair.  If I do my due diligence by reading the IRP manuals, asking questions where things are not clear (in the case of tolls to me that is clear, I will be reimbursed) and I end up not being reimbursed for whatever reason, that is unethical in my opinion.


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## aesop081 (28 Jul 2011)

DaisyDee said:
			
		

> So this is a manual they do not hand out to those moving?



It is in the IRP manual that is available from the IRP website.


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## aesop081 (28 Jul 2011)

DaisyDee said:
			
		

> it states they cover toll charges.  Not "Toll charges in certain circumstances",



You are wrong and probably need to read the CF IRP manual a few more times.



> if I knew ahead of time, that is fair.



See my quotes below from the CF IRP manual.


From the CF IRP manual, which you had access to :



> 3.3.04 Tolls, ferry and parking charges



you find :



> CF members are entitled to reimbursement for actual and reasonable expenses
> for all tolls and ferries when incurred as a result of travel by the *most direct
> route. *



So, in other words, you knew. It is rather clear.


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## Cpl4Life (2 Aug 2011)

Nothing to add about the toll bit, but I am very interested in Zoomie's comment about the detailed manual.  Is this manual available to mil pers who are doing an IRP move?



			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> BRGS has a detailed manual that delineates every single paragraph in the IRP contract.  They refer to it daily for further amplification.  In this persons case they would see that tolls/ferries/etc would only be reimbursable if and only if that route was the most direct.


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## aesop081 (2 Aug 2011)

A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001 Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program Directive

Its available on the secure website when you do a cost-move. Contains just about everything you need to know about policy.


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## Occam (2 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001 Canadian Forces Integrated Relocation Program Directive
> 
> Its available on the secure website when you do a cost-move. Contains just about everything you need to know about policy.



It's also available here on the internet, if you follow the link to the current year's Relocation Directive.


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## Cpl4Life (23 Oct 2011)

Thanks, I didn't realize it was the directive everyone was referring to.  I thought there was a policy manual of sorts beyond this.  Thanks for clarifying.


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## babish88 (16 Apr 2015)

I am hearing multiple answers on this, that its annual or special relocation and wondering if anyone has a definite answer.
I have looked on http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2009-toc.page 
and under http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-amend-ch4.page

And http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/ch-208-relocation-benefits.page

But nothing clearly states what kind of leave is used during an HHT.


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## DAA (16 Apr 2015)

tdot888 said:
			
		

> I am hearing multiple answers on this, that its annual or special relocation and wondering if anyone has a definite answer.
> I have looked on http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2009-toc.page
> and under http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-amend-ch4.page
> 
> ...



You don't use leave!  You are on an "HHT" which was approved by your CO, so it's the same as being on "TD" but the benefits are being paid through Brookfield.


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## kev994 (16 Apr 2015)

I think he means the extra 4 days, you need some type of leave. My CO gave me 2 short and 2 special in 2012.


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## babish88 (16 Apr 2015)

I don't need any extra days, was just wondering what to put on my leave pass for the duration of the HHT. So I don't even need one? did one up for a few annual before and after it.


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## DAA (16 Apr 2015)

kev994 said:
			
		

> I think he means the extra 4 days, you need some type of leave. My CO gave me 2 short and 2 special in 2012.



I hope you're right!  But yes, if you are not successful in securing accommodations within the "standard" time frame (ie; 7-days and 6-nights) and need additional time, then you would be reqired to use some form of leave to cover the portion of the "extended" HHT.  But ONLY for the extended portion.


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## DAA (16 Apr 2015)

tdot888 said:
			
		

> I don't need any extra days, was just wondering what to put on my leave pass for the duration of the HHT. So I don't even need one? did one up for a few annual before and after it.



No, there is NO requirement for a leave pass because you are NOT on leave, you are on DUTY.  The HHT form that was approved at your Unit authorizing you to proceed on your HHT is all that is required.


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## Occam (17 Apr 2015)

kev994 said:
			
		

> I think he means the extra 4 days, you need some type of leave. My CO gave me 2 short and 2 special in 2012.



Be careful about that.  The current CFIRP Directive says:


> 4.1.03 Extended HHT
> Personalized benefit
> When the CO authorizes *annual* leave, CF members may extend the duration of a standard HHT by up to an additional four days/four nights, for the following purposes:
> 
> ...



While it might have been okay at one time to grant short/special, the current policy document only mentions annual, and I'd hate to see anyone get picked up on a overzealous leave audit and owe back some annual.


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## Pusser (17 Apr 2015)

Occam said:
			
		

> Be careful about that.  The current CFIRP Directive says:
> While it might have been okay at one time to grant short/special, the current policy document only mentions annual, and I'd hate to see anyone get picked up on a overzealous leave audit and owe back some annual.



I think there is a strong argument to support the use of any form of legitimate leave.  However, it's always interesting when people start talking about Special Leave.  Special Leave is very specific in nature and can only be granted for specific reasons (e.g. Community Affairs, Education, Relocation, Christmas/New Year, etc.).  No CO has any authority whatsoever to simply grant two days leave and call it "Special."  It has to be for one of the reasons specifically given in the Leave Manual.  The only leave a CO can grant on his/her own judgement as to the reasons for it, is Short Leave and that is limited to two days per calendar month.


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## BinRat55 (21 Aug 2015)

Just in case someone is reading this thread and looking for the answer, here it is:

No leave is required to proceed on an HHT. Period. The member is considered on duty and the block in Monitor Mass has an option for putting a soldier on HHT. The HHT request form which goes through the member's CoC is usually kept (in copy) at the OR and as a Tp WO I kept copies as well in their shadow files.

I know this because we banged our heads for weeks last year attempting to come up with the right leave type. Our CO would not authorize special because there IS no special for HHT found anywhere in the CF Leave Manual. We were forced to figure this one out. Reading CBIs, CFAOs and Relocation Services Manual in conjunction with TB, the determination made was that HHT was duty much like TD. When a member proceeds on TD he/she is not on leave.

Hopefully this clears it up for future "lookers into-ers"!!


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## Lumber (21 Aug 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Just in case someone is reading this thread and looking for the answer, here it is:
> 
> No leave is required to proceed on an HHT. Period. The member is considered on duty and the block in Monitor Mass has an option for putting a soldier on HHT. The HHT request form which goes through the member's CoC is usually kept (in copy) at the OR and as a Tp WO I kept copies as well in their shadow files.
> 
> ...



...with the exception that if you need to extend your HHT you can do so but must use annual leave.


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## BinRat55 (21 Aug 2015)

Lumber said:
			
		

> ...with the exception that if you need to extend your HHT you can do so but must use annual leave.



Yes, correct. In one instance this APS, the member has extenuating circumstances trying to find suitable accommodations for his wife a NINE kids... texted me and asked me what he should do as he was thus far unsuccessful (probably MORE successful in creating new life in the hotel they were in away from their NINE kids...

BLUF - The CO actually authorized 2 short, changing my annual to short days.

Apparently I have no compassion... :


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## CountDC (21 Aug 2015)

apparently you did it correct and the CO messed up as the policy specifically mentions Annual Leave for extended HHT.


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## MJP (21 Aug 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> apparently you did it correct and the CO messed up as the policy specifically mentions Annual Leave for extended HHT.



Or as I like to think of it, the CO used his command prerogative to take care of a soldier.  Might just be me though  :dunno:


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## BinRat55 (21 Aug 2015)

I agree with both views. I never took it personally when I was "sat on" by the CO. It does in fact say that annual leave shall be taken, however it's always the CO's prerogative (as MJP states) to give short where / when they see fit. In this member's case, the sheer dedication to unit goals during training and exercises despite he has so many other obligations (he had NINE kids!!) it was sort of a reward.

I couldn't have agreed more in this case.

NINE!!


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