# Goose Bay:  Promises & updates



## Gunner (15 May 2005)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/15/labrador-byelections050515.html



> Gordon O'Connor, a former army officer and the Conservatives' defence critic, said his party "would establish a new rapid reaction army battalion in CFB Goose Bay" with about 750 soldiers â â€œ if it formed a government after the next general election.





> The Conservatives would also establish an unmanned aerial vehicle squadron (surveillance aircraft) in central Labrador, he told a cheering crowd of party loyalists on the weekend.





> The Liberals have promised to spend $20 million to improve the runway at Goose Bay. "I'm confident Goose Bay is here to stay," Defence Minister Bill Graham said, also on the weekend.



Argh!  The Federal parties continue to buy our votes by dangling our money (or worse our future generations money) and we sit around like sheep and take it.  I will be outraged if a rapid reaction battalion or UAV Sqn gets dumped into Labrador.


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## AmmoTech90 (15 May 2005)

Now I'm mostly a-political, viewing both sides with distrust but I have to give the better idea to the Liberals this time.  During campaigning this weekend the Liberals promised re-newed training with the NATO forces in Goose Bay and repairs to the runway.  Not too far fetched.

The Conservatives promised to base a QRF Battalion there along with a UAV squadron.  Some problems I see with this-
-Isolation, a lot of people are going to think it sucks.  A few more will think its great and want to stay there for ever.  This could cause some manning problems, see next point.
-Tour length currently in Goose Bay is 3 years.  This means rotating an entire battalion out every three years.  If they want to make it non-restricted there's going to have to be whole lot put into infrastructure.  Less dollars for the pointy end.
-In addition to the costs of the second point, everyone has to be flown out every year, including family members.  More cost, less dollars for the pointy end.
-Now the QRF battalion could be a 1 year tasking which would reduce some of the costs, but bring in a whole lot more as far as training.  -Unless they are going to replace a whole squadron of people with very specialized skills every year, the UAV squadron would have to a 3+ year posting.
-Or they could scrap all the benefits that normally come with a isolated posting and just say suck it up.  That would be a bit hypocritical considering the praise they have heaped on the proposed improvements that SCONDVA and other studies have seen implemented.

I just don't see posting 800-1000 people up in Goose Bay as too feasible in this day and age.  It would be a dream posting for some, but a nightmare for most I believe.

Personally I don't care, my trade would have a minimal presence and we would probably be out of there in 3 years.  It would just be normal posting for us.  I just view it as a bad idea.

Link to article
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/15/labrador-byelections050515.html


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## AmmoTech90 (15 May 2005)

Dammit,

I took to long a posted a longer post.  Maybe a mod could merge them.

My thread.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30748.0.html


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## Gunner (15 May 2005)

Done!   ;D


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## Haggis (15 May 2005)

Let's save a few bucks by moving an exisitng battalion up there in rotation.  Have the battalion stay in place for three years and then do a "reilef in place".  To simplify things the task should go to one regiment, say, the Van Doos.

Thoughts?


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## Inch (15 May 2005)

What a dumb idea, as it is now the guys that go to 444 CS Sqn don't even take their own F&E up there. It's all furnished government housing. Could you imagine the QOL implications of there being no work for the families? Forget about it, it'll never happen.

From what I gathered from the CDS's briefing here in Halifax a couple months back, Shearwater/Halifax is going to be a major hub. There's a large natural port that doesn't freeze over in the winter, there's a rail head and there's a military airfield all within a 10km radius. It's also situated around the largest city in the Maritimes. Halifax/Shearwater is win-win IMHO.


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## a_majoor (15 May 2005)

Putting a QRF Bn in Goose bay is very improbable for most of the reasons mentioned above, but there _might_ be a case for keeping it as a hub for long range surveillance UAVs like Global Hawk patrolling the Atlantic or Eastern Arctic. Even then, the main base for the East Coast UAV wing might as well be Shearwater.


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## SeaKingTacco (15 May 2005)

> East Coast UAV wing might as well be Shearwater.


Everyone keeps saying stuff like this.  Yet, Shearwater has some of the worst flying weather on the planet- fog, icing, snowstorms.  The city has really encroached around the edges of the base, too.

It would be about the last place I would base a new flying operation in the CF- mind you, I'm not signing the cheques  

Cheers


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## Horse_Soldier (16 May 2005)

This is the kind of asinine political BS that makes you want to cry.  Are the conservatives any smarter than the liberals?  Not if this is any indication.  Pulling out a dumb idea to buy votes in a single constituency...  A pox on all their houses  :rocket:  The Marijuana Party is starting to look really good right now - at least under their program, we can get stoned enough to feel good about the whole thing.


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## jmacleod (16 May 2005)

Goose Bay has essentially been rejected by NATO, and using the long established facility to
support infantry units with all supporting arms does not appear to be a sensible use of hard to
come by resources. CFB Gagetown appears to have all the existing criteria necessary. 12 Wing
Shearwater must have it's high speed and heavy lift runway upgraded (minimum cost about
$4.6 million, a guess) to accomodate heavy lift and high speed aircraft. 12 Wing has been chosen
as the main support base for the MHP and has been earmarked for investment of over $35.0
million - a logical and wise choice. Have heard about 12 Wing weather for decades, but I hasten to
point out that the high profile and excellent Shearwater International Air Show, held annually in
September only lost VFR flying weather once in some 15 years of activity. Of course the Rain Goddess
was always on side, courtesy of VU 32 Squadron. MacLeod


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## Edward Campbell (16 May 2005)

It was always a mistake to put a black-hat in front of a live mic â â€œ even on the brigade command net.  This is a dumb idea â â€œ but given the source I'm not surprised.

Hopefully a Conservative government will be no more faithful to its promises than the Liberal ones and so these bits of nonsense will get swept under the rug, where they belong.


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## GGboy (16 May 2005)

Actually, posting a UAV sqn up there wouldn't be such a bad idea. It's central to the Grand Banks and eastern Arctic and the numbers of pers involved would be relatively small: mainly techies and maintenance types.
They can actually "fly" the long-range UAVs from almost anywhere, during the last ex testing their performance and the C4I links the UAV was controlled (at different times) from an office in Ottawa, and there's no reason why they can't be flown out of Goose Bay and taken over by almost anyone as the sit requires. Whether it's someone in Ft. Confusion or an operator on a frigate or Aurora ...
I don't think G'town is in the running to base one of these proposed Expeditionary Commands: no deep-water port nearby.
And if Shearwater's socked in, there's always Greenwood nearby ...


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## Old Sweat (16 May 2005)

G'town was established precisely because it was close to an ice-free, deep water port. Its original purpose was as a concentration point for the remainder of the army division Canada had promised NATO in the early 1950s. Whether it could or should actually hold another unit now is another matter entirely.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (16 May 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> It was always a mistake to put a *black-hat* in front of a live mic â â€œ even on the brigade command net.



Now, now - play nice... ;D  

Actually, I haven't heard much good about O'Connor, although I don't personally know the first thing about him...

Back to the subject at hand...  This is the dumbest idea I've heard in a while, and was disturbed to read that it is now official Conservative policy (see their website).  Goose Bay certainly does not have the infrastructure to support a full battalion, nor does it have anything in the way of quality of life for the soldiers who would be posted there.  Can you imagine the reaction if your spouse is a professional of some sort... "Honey, guess what?  We're posted to Goose Bay!  I've heard the huntin's good!"

Strategically, this makes little sense and gives virtually no benefit for reduced deployment timings, access to ready airlift (yes, it has a runway), access to training areas, routine supply and maintenence, etc, etc, ad nauseum...

This is one of those bright ideas that politicians have when they're campaigning and soon falls by the wayside once the reality check (and the financial costs) sets in...  I hope!!

Cheers,

TR


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 May 2005)

Can you imagine the reaction if your spouse is a professional of some sort... "Honey, guess what?  We're posted to Goose Bay!  I've heard the huntin's good!"


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## Teddy Ruxpin (16 May 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Kinda like Shilo!



Or Wainwright...

Er, I take back what I said about "reality checks"...


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## Cdn Blackshirt (16 May 2005)

Here's the difference between the Conservatives and the Liberals on this issue:  If the Conservatives get elected, at least they will spend the money to buy a UAV squadron and rapid reaction battalion, that they can then put in the wrong place.



M.   ;D


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## Zartan (16 May 2005)

Perhaps the conservatives feel we will be going to war with Denmark shortly, over, what's it called? Hans Island?


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## Island Ryhno (16 May 2005)

Yeah, a bit of a silly idea, here is a website link to the town of Happy Valley - Goose Bay. There are opportunities for professional people out there, schools, hospitals etc, and they can never get enough of them because no one wants to go there. Also the Voiseys Bay project and the Lower Churchill project are/will be based out of there. Just some info.  8) http://www.happyvalley-goosebay.com/index2.htm


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## Edward Campbell (16 May 2005)

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> Yeah, a bit of a silly idea, here is a website link to the town of Happy Valley - Goose Bay. There are opportunities for professional people out there, schools, hospitals etc, and they can never get enough of them because no one wants to go there. Also the Voiseys Bay project and the Lower Churchill project are/will be based out of there. Just some info.   8) http://www.happyvalley-goosebay.com/index2.htm



Good point, Island Ryhno: Goose Bay is not the end of the world, not at all.

The main problem is that basing decisions should be recommended by the defence staff and then blessed or sent back by the Minister, for political reasons.  This a back-asswards; politics driving not just policy (which is part of the process) but the administration and logistics, too.

This proposal is ill-considered and will remain so until it comes _up_ from the defence staff because it is the best option.  It is a poorly aimed hip shot; I do know Gordon O'Connor so I'm not surprised.


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## George Wallace (16 May 2005)

I don't know.   Perhaps there is some merit in this idea.  It sort of brings back the "Defence of Canada" role the Airborne had in the Seventies......now they are a lot closer to the Arctic they would fight in.  Great to have a large Land element in a 'large' Base in the North to conduct Arctic Warfare Trg and Deployments.  Deployments East over the Pole would be a little shorter from Goose Bay/Happy Valley.  It would attract the type of people who find Yellowknife attractive.  If NATO Air Forces are pulling out, it would leave an established infrastructure that the CF could exploit for other causes.  UAV training would have unrestricted Air Space with the NATO fighters gone.  

Many of the 'Cons' have already been covered, some having been exaggerated a little.  I am sure that many of what we have heard are myths and perhaps Garry who has been there for several years and now posted to Cold Lake could set some of them straight?

There may in fact be some real benefits in some of these musings.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (16 May 2005)

I can't agree.  I'm hip deep in the challenges being experienced by Wainwright as it tries to expand and it is only two hours from Edmonton, with a long-established Army presence.  Furthermore, I vividly remember the politically-inspired move of 1 CMBG to Edmonton and the resultant $120 million (plus) in extra costs.

There are (as far as I am aware) no major lodger units (444 Sqn with a few Griffons aside) in Goose Bay and it qualifies as an isolated post.  A battalion, with all its bits and pieces, would have to have facilities constructed, plus all the associated housing built.  With the new equipment management concept, a unit would have to fly into its equipment to conduct training - a road move from Goose Bay is a non-starter.  There is no rail.  We can't fly on operations, let alone trying to get a battalion properly trained.

What strategic sense would there be in creating an isolated, orphan battalion and spending hundreds of millions of dollars in infrastructure - right when we're attempting to limit this sort of thing?

As Gunner pointed out at the start of this discussion - it is politics at its most nauseating.


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## MdB (16 May 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> As Gunner pointed out at the start of this discussion - it is politics at its most nauseating.



Argh, disgusting initiative. ??? Where the heck did he took this idea if not from politically-driven motivation?? Man, I mean, even the trucker next door would know a QRF located in Labrador ( ;D ) wouldn't be strategically sound!! Why not move all the 3 infantry regiments up at Alert, they'll only have to cross the Arctic on cross-country skis and be anywhere in Europe or Asia in 4-6 months!! :-X


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## Infanteer (17 May 2005)

It seems that there are a variety of issues that need to be looked at when building a base - things like community, morale for members and families, distance from town, access to services, etc, etc - gone are the days when you can stick the cavalry in a desolate post.

It appears to me that basing units in bumfuck nowhere (Shiloh, Goose Bay) or basing them in/near big cities (Winnipeg) isn't working - perhaps mid-sized communities are the answer; placed on the outskirts so as not to be to intrusive but close enough that it doesn't feel like a posting to Mars.


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## Marty (17 May 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Can you imagine the reaction if your spouse is a professional of some sort... "Honey, guess what?  We're posted to Goose Bay!  I've heard the huntin's good!"
> 
> Kinda like Shilo!



Just to clarify Goose Bay and Shilo dont have nuch in  common at all "The Goose" is a much more isolated place with alot less to do .You definatly dont want to get sent there.


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## Gunner (17 May 2005)

Shilo has a "city" of 35K people about 15 minutes down the road from it.  I don't think Goose falls into this category (in fact I beleive it is considered an isolated posting).


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## Marauder (18 May 2005)

Good initiative, but wrong.


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## onewingwonder (18 May 2005)

Not sure how Shearwater could be expanded/upgraded. Wasn't the long runway and 3/4 of the land sold to private interests a few years ago? As for the government saying they'll NOW pay to upgrade runway in Goose, its too late. They refused when the RAF asked, which is why the Mob left a couple of months ago.


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## Marty (18 May 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Shilo has a "city" of 35K people about 15 minutes down the road from it.  I don't think Goose falls into this category (in fact I beleive it is considered an isolated posting).



The only thing Goose has 15 mins down the road is Sheshashit( I know that isnt the right spelling )......a Reserve ....it was the place in the news a few years back re  the kids sniffing glue . Theres also beautiful Mud Lake . Metro Mud Lake has 20 people I think but Industry Canada says a major economic boom is on the horizon.........if the Liebrals get back in that is . But the hunting is great .


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## Inch (18 May 2005)

onewingwonder said:
			
		

> Not sure how Shearwater could be expanded/upgraded. Wasn't the long runway and 3/4 of the land sold to private interests a few years ago? As for the government saying they'll NOW pay to upgrade runway in Goose, its too late. They refused when the RAF asked, which is why the Mob left a couple of months ago.



I believe it's in the hands of the Canada Lands Corp, but from what I've heard, it won't be hard to get back. We still shoot approaches to 16/34 and all the lighting is still there and operational. From what I see, there's no threat of private interests taking over anytime soon.


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## MarkOttawa (12 Oct 2006)

A good column by Senator Colin Kenny, chair of the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/common/committee_Senhome.asp?Language=E&parl=39&Ses=1&comm_id=76

The Goose Bay boondoggle
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=7335e073-0578-40fc-90a7-7ed974648ad8

Mark
Ottawa


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## probum non poenitet (12 Oct 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It appears to me that basing units in bum**** nowhere (Shiloh, Goose Bay) or basing them in/near big cities (Winnipeg) isn't working - perhaps mid-sized communities are the answer;



Two words: _*Las Vegas*_ ... sure it's another country, but think of the retention!


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## Mike Baker (12 Oct 2006)

Do you think that they could put a battalion here in Newfoundland? Perhaps in central NL like Gander or Grand Falls, or on the Burin peninsula around Marystown. I think that would be a good idea.


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## Infanteer (12 Oct 2006)

Mike_Baker said:
			
		

> Do you think that they could put a battalion here in Newfoundland? Perhaps in central NL like Gander or Grand Falls, or on the Burin peninsula around Marystown. I think that would be a good idea.



How about in Petawawa, Ontario.  Oh wait, we just did that.


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## geo (12 Oct 2006)

nah.... If you want newfoundlanders to be in the Battalion you have to put it where the able bodied Newfs are..... err..... Ft McMurray OR Toronto


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## McG (12 Oct 2006)

Mike_Baker said:
			
		

> Do you think that they could put a battalion here in Newfoundland? ....  I think that would be a good idea.


Why?


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## geo (12 Oct 2006)

MCG said:
			
		

> Why?


(Giggle)
+1


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## BernDawg (12 Oct 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> nah.... If you want newfoundlanders to be in the Battalion you have to put it where the able bodied Newfs are..... err..... Ft McMurray OR Toronto



Great plan but the Feds couldn't afford the PLD in Ft Mac!  ;D


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## orange.paint (12 Oct 2006)

why?operational Army bases in:
Base in Edmonton
Base In petawawa
Base in Valcartier
why not have one on the far east!Boost poor economy also.

And I'm willing to bet Newfies make up 35% of the army.I heard a number of 60 percent east coasters,but that's just from talk alone.

Why not?Recruitment would go through the roof in NFLD.Be able to live in the best place in north America and get to serve overseas with steady pay.Plus the poor economy would be sending them in droves.





			
				geo said:
			
		

> nah.... If you want Newfoundlanders to be in the Battalion you have to put it where the able bodied Newfs are..... err..... Ft McMurray OR Toronto



Your an ignorant ****.Plain and simple.Won't stoop to your level.

From an Able body Newfoundlander,not in Toronto or Ft Mcmurry.

P.S if all are left home is weak broken people take a run down George street on a Friday night....mainlander with your attitude proably wouldn't last long.


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## McG (12 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> why?operational Army bases in:
> Base in Edmonton
> Base In petawawa
> Base in Valcartier
> why not have one on the far east!


Maybe something like Gagetown?


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## orange.paint (12 Oct 2006)

note operational as in brigade.


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## McG (12 Oct 2006)

That is not what operational means.  Gagetown does have an infantry battalion and an Engineer Regiment.


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## orange.paint (12 Oct 2006)

rcr 2 brigade

Echo? I really don't know.It's not a brigade where you have no armoured support and only 1 batallion.

Every other province has a regular force army base(except PEI).Newfoundland doesnt and is right on salt water (surrounded actually) and closer to europe.But that would be such a sin to make mainlanders move away from their provinces for the rest of their lifes,with no hope of ever getting posted near family.

Personally I could care less where they post me.Except north I freakin hate cold.I do hate the certain people who turn where a base could be in the province of NFLD and turn it into insults.Personally I don't think he/she would do it in person,hence the internet tough guy.Im also 6 foot 7 320 lbs on a keyboard. :


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## McG (12 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> Every other province has a regular force army base(except PEI).


You need to check your facts.  You are arguing on untruths and they make everything you've said irrelevant.

Why put a Bn in Newfoundland?


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## Infanteer (12 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> Your an ignorant ****.Plain and simple.Won't stoop to your level.
> 
> From an Able body Newfoundlander,not in Toronto or Ft Mcmurry.
> 
> P.S if all are left home is weak broken people take a run down George street on a Friday night....mainlander with your attitude proably wouldn't last long.



Power down the Death Star and go find the word "humour" in the dictionary.

As well, I've seen nothing to justify your claim except for providing a boost to the local economy.


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## orange.paint (12 Oct 2006)

from the west east regular force bases


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_Base

Here's a list then MCG.As you will notice you will not find any CFB in Newfoundland except gander...you aint gettin posted there.You will also note there is one for every other province besides Newfoundland and PEI.PEI proably doesn't have the training room for a large base.

Having a base in Newfoundland would boost an economy that has fell through the floor.Boarding ship could be done at CFSSt.johns to deploy by sea and fly out of st.johns international.It has a wide variety of training area.Note how CSOR had to go to kamloops for mountain training.We have the torngat mountans range,largest mountains east of the Rocky's.Plenty of untouched land,coast line that isn't dotted with town houses.You could go from an urban training environment to a rural community then to deep forest within the hour.
Theres a few reasons,and sorry infanteer I just ain't fussy on dat stuff bye (while doing a jig eating cod in a southwestern).

Typical


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## McG (12 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> Here's a list then MCG.As you will notice you will not find any CFB in Newfoundland.


I now realize your problem is that you speak "army" about as well as a civi.  You said:


			
				099* said:
			
		

> Every other province has a regular force army base(except PEI).


but we know that not every CFB houses an Army unit or formation. (You do know that, right?)

You also provided the interesting interpretation of:





			
				099* said:
			
		

> operational as in brigade.



Have you spent all your military time serving in offices full of just civies?


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## Infanteer (12 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> from the west east regular force bases
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_Base
> ...



As MCG mentioned, you were speaking about the Army.  I don't see BC, Saskatchewan, or Nova Scotia on the list either.... 



> Having a base in Newfoundland would boost an economy that has fell through the floor.



Again, if this is your primary rationale for a base, then you may as well stop now, especially when Senator Colin Kenny just stated we need to close down these bases and get these communities off the dependence of a garrison.



> Note how CSOR had to go to kamloops for mountain training.We have the torngat mountans range,largest mountains east of the Rocky's.



The Kamloops area offered infrastructure (I know, I've trained there) and a rocky, mountainous arid terrain (I know, I've been there umpteen times).  Remind you of something?



> Theres a few reasons,and sorry infanteer I just ain't fussy on dat stuff bye (while doing a jig eating cod in a southwestern).
> 
> Typical



Well, I'm having trouble sorting your posts out from the typical 14-year old banter that I have to edit around here, so please offer up something with substance and answer the questions or quit wasting bandwidth.


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## GAP (12 Oct 2006)

.


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## armyvern (12 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> rcr 2 brigade
> 
> Every other province has a regular force army base(except PEI).
> Personally I could care less where they post me.Except north I freakin hate cold.I do hate the certain people who turn where a base could be in the province of NFLD and turn it into insults.Personally I don't think he/she would do it in person,hence the internet tough guy.Im also 6 foot 7 320 lbs on a keyboard. :



Please don't get posted to PEI....us Reg Force Army people who are posted here probably won't be able to enlighten you any further than you already have been....please please please.

PS...can someone please point out to me when exactly the Patricia's moved back to BC or when did they build a Reg F army Base in Nova Scotia....I seemed to have missed it and want to add them to my posting choices?  :


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## orange.paint (12 Oct 2006)

Yes sir
Your are right.I did go off half cocked and ready to lose it on my own computer I spent my own money on.No I don't work in an office I'm a tanker by heart a recce soldier by trade.

I do however hate the fact that this is the second or third time this frenchman has put his little comments in about Newfoundland.If it was vice versa this site would be pinging with arguments.I personally will not use a sweeping generalisation on a certain group of people in a derogatory way.I'm not a sensitive person,I like kidding around; but Geo decided to do it again.

I gave my reasons on why I thought we should have a regular force army base.I do understand that all the bases are not "a brigade".I do understand they all don't hold regular force army bases.So besides that point which I obviously fudged up on,there are my reasons.I had to stop myself from ARGUING on the internet.It's extremely stupid.Sort of like posting out a comment knowing someone isn't there to respond in person.I have a lot of Quebecois and Acadian friends,I don't go down town Montreal and shout out terms to insult.

Went off half cocked,sounded like an idiot on the topic for sure.
Sorry for wasting your bandwith.


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## KevinB (12 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> sounded like an idiot



+1


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## Good2Golf (13 Oct 2006)

While the Torngat mountains are impressive in their own right, they just don't compare to extent and vertical nature of the Rockies and the similarities with relevant portions of the Hindu Kush.

It's also easier to say, "I'm just going to drop into Kamloops for some stuff" than "I'm just going to drop into Kangiqsualujjuaq for some stuff."

G2G


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## RangerRay (13 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> Note how CSOR had to go to kamloops for mountain training.We have the torngat mountans range,largest mountains east of the Rocky's.



Kamloops is also a hot, semi-arid grassland, similar to a certain theater of operations we are now engaged in.  I've never been there, but I'm willing to bet that the Torngats are a fair bit cooler and soggier...

Edit to add:  I'm sorry, but in my view, "economic development" is not a valid reason to establish a military base.


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## PPCLI Guy (13 Oct 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> is the second or third time this frenchman has put his little comments in about Newfoundland.



You sir, are an ass.

Drop by my office for a cup of shut the fuck up, followed by a throat punch.

You see 099 me son, I was being rude - you, on the other hand, were being ignorant.


Mods - very unhappy with that language - and no, I don't mean mine.


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## geo (13 Oct 2006)

099
FYI, I have lived and worked on the Rock (10 Yrs) & worked with people from the Rock for some 35 years.  Do I live in Quebec now - Yes but I have lived many other places and done many things..... 

I may be a "frenchman but you sir are an A$$.

Was I being Rude or Irreverent? - don't thik so & wasn't intended but the prospect of basing Infantry/Armd/Arty/Engr troops on the Rock for anything other than economic spinoffs just makes my head spin.

Your claims of the Rock & PEI being the only places where there are no Reg Army troops is out to lunch.....
Nfld, PEI AND N.S.
Sask
BC
Yukon, NWT AND Nunavut

Or have I forgotten something?

BTW - all the Newfoundlanders who I have had the pleasure to know have been able to laugh at themselves and at the world..... but I guess you missed those lessons.

Cheers!


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## Infanteer (13 Oct 2006)

Well, 099*, or should I say rcac_011, is on a 2-week sabbatical, so don't worry about him accepting that cup of joe.  Shall we get back to the topic at hand?

Cheers,
Infanteer


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## chrisf (13 Oct 2006)

Two major problems with placing a military base in Newfoundland off the top of my head...

- No rail transport, all goods and supplies would have to be transported by ship or air-craft.
- The only two places with military infrastructure currently in place are St. John's and Gander. There's no room for expansion at CFS St. John's (Though property could certainly be found in out lying areas). Gander would likely be preferable, but further from a port. Either way, neither are overly good options.


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## Garry (13 Oct 2006)

At the risk of Hi-jacking the love fest.... (and btw: George- sorry I'm late, story of my life)

I spent almost 8 years in "the Goose", was lucky enough to hit it at the end of its heyday.

I'll start of by addressing a few queries from above:
Infrastructure: 
-it had enough PMQ's to support over 1200 families. They were NICE. They've also bulldozed a bunch, not sure how many are left, but again the homes are there.
-Bldgs for the equipment, etc- the Goose housed  over 120 front line fighters every summer. 5 massive hangars, plus loads more smaller ones. Easily house a battalion worth of vehicles.
-Shopping sucked in the 90's, but has become much better. 
-Loads of work if you want it.
Transport:
- Runway may be in bad shape for fighters, but is fine for transports (yes, there's a difference). The runways were built for B-52's (300 feet wide, 12,000' long) and the Goose is #8 on the list of space shuttle diversion's. 
- The base was built in the 50's solely to asist in the transport of fighters and other aircraft from North America to Europe. It is closer to everything, and has great weather.
-The base has a deep water port, and connects to the Atlantic.
-There is a road into Goose now, and it connects to the coast as well.
Lifestyle:
-If you fish or hunt, you are in Heaven. 
-If you don't, there's still plenty to do.
-If you cannot entertain yourself, and must be spoon fed happiness, you'll self destruct in Goose.
Trg area:
-5 minutes after you leave your home, you'll swear that you're the first person to ever walk that stretch of woods.
-Wonderful (WONDERFUL) in the winter
-Horrible (REALLY %%$#@#% HORRIBLE) in the summer. You simply cannot imagine the mosquito's and blackflys out on the land in the summer. If (and this is a big if) you know what you're doing, you can actually enjoy your time in the woods. If you don't, the bugs could kill you. Caribou lose over a pint of blood a day to blackflies. I stopped fishing once for a smoke, and counted over 50 flies on my sunglass lens- and another 50 crawling on the underside of my baseball hat. Cleaning a moose, I had to breathe through clenched teeth- couldn't use my nose, it was stopped full of bugs. After awhile you give up on DEET (it works, just too much $$) and got to fly nets, etc.

Kids and families:
-WONDERFUL spot for young kids, terrible for teens. 

I had a ball in Goose, and would have stayed there if the base hadn't downsized my job out. Nearly stayed as a civvy, it was that great. 

A Brigade there would work, except for one thing: the local businesses would eat the Gov money like a dog on steak. 

Cheers-Garry


----------



## geo (13 Oct 2006)

Garry,

Considering the hue and cry when theymoved troops from Wpg to Shilo or London to Pet, I can imagine the reaction to moving a Bn to the Goose.

Troops might enjoy the area, spouses might not...


----------



## Kirkhill (13 Oct 2006)

Dipping toe in roiled waters just to offer this -

There was a comment that Goose Bay wouldn't be a good training match with our current operating environment.  Neither were any of our other locales either apparently.  Hence the move to Kamloops for CSOR.  Vernon might be a good option for a BC base but the locals all now own high price properties by the lake and apparently there is some sort of organization intimately tied to many of the restaurants.

Point is - we need to be able to operate in a variety of environments, including cold places, wet places and bug infested places.  The good news, apparently, is that Goose Bay meets all of those requirements.  It sounds like a heck of a training bargain.  ;D.


----------



## geo (14 Oct 2006)

Kirkhill..... agree with you that the Goose does offer some good potential facilities but, uncertain if you would want to be sent there permanently...


----------



## Gunner (14 Oct 2006)

Geo, exactly.  Access to training areas is much different from living at an isolated posting.


----------



## geo (14 Oct 2006)

When they built up Wainright they did not move 1 Bde facilities.....
not necessary to move anyone to "da goose"

Matter of fact, I think it is good for our visibility within the country to move troops & train in areas outside of our regular training haunts.  It trains our movement people and it gives Joe public a peek at all that shiny equipment he's bought.

1 or 2 weeks ago, CSOR and their air wing was doing some training in and around Montreal. Helos dropping assault teams onto skyscrapers. picking up people from rooftops.  Some people were grumpy about it but - they're grumpy about most everything.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Oct 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Kirkhill..... agree with you that the Goose does offer some good potential facilities but, uncertain if you would want to be sent there permanently...



Actually here I agree as well.  

Something like the Arctic Warfare Training Centre being proposed (Company sized establishment) may be more realistic along with a continued Air Force Recce and Response capability.


----------



## GAP (8 Mar 2012)

Labrador asks Harper to pony up on promised drone squadron
 By Lee Berthiaume, Postmedia News March 5, 2012
Article Link

OTTAWA — When he was opposition leader, Stephen Harper promised Newfoundland and Labrador that if his Conservatives formed a government, he would station a squadron of drones at one of the province's military bases for Arctic surveillance.

More than six years later, the province and community of Happy Valley-Goose Bay are pressing the Conservative government to pony up.

"The original commitment was made back in 2006 during the federal election," said Newfoundland Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Nick McGrath. "We've been monitoring it ever since then."

The airfield at Canadian Forces Base Goose Bay in Labrador was built originally by the American and Canadian militaries during the Second World War for anti-submarine aircraft.

CFB Goose Bay remained a Cold War staging base for the U.S. through to the 1980s, at which point the Americans left and NATO allies including Britain, Germany and Italy used it as a permanent training facility until the mid-2000s when those agreements ran out.

A spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay said in an email that the Conservative government has invested $20 million in upgrading the airfield and $300 million in decontaminating sites around the base. It has also tried to attract other militaries to conduct training in the area.
More on link


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Mar 2012)

And here's the letter promising it (6 page PDF)
http://bit.ly/wMhT2p


----------



## dimsum (9 Mar 2012)

I can see 5 Wing being used intermittently as a launch/recovery base for missions up north, but permanently?  I wouldn't even want to imagine the issues involved in sending a few hundred members and their dependants to Goose Bay for 3 years.


----------



## Journeyman (9 Mar 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I wouldn't even want to imagine the issues involved in sending a few hundred members and their dependants to Goose Bay for 3 years.


At one time the base was the largest airbase in the north-east, supporting the USAF and several NATO airforces, one of the last Pinetree Line radar stations...and protesters of fighter aircraft low-level flight training. It had a pretty significant CF population.


----------



## chrisf (9 Mar 2012)

The base itself is still quite large, though largely unused...


----------



## GAP (9 Mar 2012)

So how come SAR doesn't  base out of there?


----------



## Journeyman (9 Mar 2012)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The base itself is still quite large, though largely unused...


  :facepalm: 
Yes, I assume that the runway has not shrunk and is _still_ large enough to accomodate fighters and airliners. Perhaps I should have said "populous," or "the Goose Bay-Happy Valley Legion has lots of bar stools."




			
				GAP said:
			
		

> So how come SAR doesn't  base out of there?


Goose Bay's 444 Combat Support Squadron, with CH-146 Griffons, do SAR taskings


----------



## dapaterson (9 Mar 2012)

According to Wikipedia, Happy Valley-Goose Bay has a population of 7572, or roughly a third of the size of the crowd at the Bell Centre when the Canadiens play a home game.


----------



## Journeyman (9 Mar 2012)

And I did use the past tense, with the implication, responding to Dimsum, that an in-flux of CF personnel/families could once again be supported.

Simply add Walmart, expand Timmies, bring in more bar waitresses.  ;D


----------



## GAP (9 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> And I did use the past tense, with the implication, responding to Dimsum, that an in-flux of CF personnel/families could once again be supported.
> 
> Simply add Walmart and Target, etc, expand Timmies, bring in more bar waitresses (what's wrong with the ones that worked there 20 years ago?).  ;D


----------



## Journeyman (9 Mar 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> ...bring in more bar waitresses (what's wrong with the ones that worked there 20 years ago?).    ;D


You know how guys are -- always wanting to upgrade to the latest model.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> You know how guys are -- always wanting to upgrade to the latest model.



Well, the ones from twenty years ago would probably be closer to your age.   >

But I did notice you said "more" not "younger".


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> And I did use the past tense, with the implication, responding to Dimsum, that an in-flux of CF personnel/families could once again be supported.
> 
> Simply add Walmart, expand Timmies, bring in more bar waitresses.  ;D




Take the skinny ones from here ...


----------



## GAP (9 Mar 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, the ones from twenty years ago would probably be closer to your age.   >
> 
> But I did notice you said "more" not "younger".



Hey!! a perfect opportunity for Seniors to get out of the house and do something useful.....what could go wrong?


----------



## jeffb (9 Mar 2012)

So, does anyone want to tell the good people of Labrador that Canada currently doesn't have any "Drones" that are even remotely capable of performing the services they are asking for? Also, aren't UAV's only allowed to fly in restricted airspace in Canada?


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Mar 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> So, does anyone want to tell the good people of Labrador that Canada currently doesn't have any "Drones" that are even remotely capable of performing the services they are asking for?


Ah, but that's not what the Party's 2006 letter to Premier Danny Williams said:


> .... A Conservative government will establish in Newfoundland and Labrador the following new operational requirements for the protection of Canadian sovereignty and security:
> 
> - Station a new Rapid Reaction Army Battalion (approximately 650 regular force personnel) for enhanced Atlantic army response at CFB Goose Bay.
> (....)
> ...


A looooooooooooong way from "yeah, we'll do it" to "yup, it's done".....


----------



## dimsum (9 Mar 2012)

I forgot about the Army Bn part.  Good luck with that.


----------



## armyvern (9 Mar 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I can see 5 Wing being used intermittently as a launch/recovery base for missions up north, but permanently?  I wouldn't even want to imagine the issues involved in sending a few hundred members and their dependants to Goose Bay for 3 years.



Circa the Gulf War 1 years, that place was rocking and busy. I actually enjoyed the place.


----------



## chrisf (9 Mar 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> Yes, I assume that the runway has not shrunk and is _still_ large enough to accomodate fighters and airliners. Perhaps I should have said "populous," or "the Goose Bay-Happy Valley Legion has lots of bar stools."



No, actually I was referring to the rest of the basebut, not sure if you've been there lately,  the facilities are all still there, both German and Canadian, and still maintained, just unoccupied. Admitedly "cold war surplus", but in decent shape.

The town of Happy Valley Goosebay? Boring as ever. Lab City on the other hand is booming. They've got a walmart!


----------



## ProudNewfoundlander (12 Mar 2012)

The base was created initially because the terrain resembled the that  of much for the former Soviet Union, and its subsequent usage was heavily tied into the cold war. With the Soviet Union and the Cold war ended its largely outlived its usefulness. It happens...


----------



## aesop081 (12 Mar 2012)

ProudNewfoundlander said:
			
		

> With the Soviet Union and the Cold war ended its largely outlived its usefulness. It happens...



Shrinking European defence budgets and advanced simulation systems had more to do with it than any similarity with the terrain in the USSR. Not to mention the never-ending complaints about noise from the "locals".


----------



## ProudNewfoundlander (12 Mar 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Shrinking European defence budgets and advanced simulation systems had more to do with it than any similarity with the terrain in the USSR. Not to mention the never-ending complaints about noise from the "locals".



Well, a huge reason it was established and maintained was because of geographical similarity , especially during the former half of the Cold War. Even with simulators, having a tangible asset such as similar terrain was still seen as advantage. With the USSR no longer a threat, let alone not existing, a significant reason for the base was lost. 

Some locals complained, but it never became that significant, and that certainly wouldn't lead to decreased use of the base. Out these ways its surprisingly easy to get something in the paper, and theres always people complaining about something. Go to anyone from this province and mention "call-in" and see the reaction you get.


----------



## ProudNewfoundlander (12 Mar 2012)

Not to mention decreased defense budgets would tie into the end of the Soviet Union and the Cold war. I felt it was implied, but just re-affirming


----------



## aesop081 (12 Mar 2012)

ProudNewfoundlander said:
			
		

> Even with simulators, having a tangible asset such as similar terrain was still seen as advantage.



I never said it wasn't.

When the Euros figured out they could do what they needed to for cheaper at home, GB lost its reason to exist. Everything else was secondary at best.



			
				ProudNewfoundlander said:
			
		

> Not to mention decreased defense budgets would tie into the end of the Soviet Union and the Cold war. I felt it was implied, but just re-affirming



As i said, money was the driving factor. If the Euros could do low flying in GB for cheaper than at home, they would still be there. They can't so the don't.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 May 2012)

A bump with the latest on this one, from CBC.ca (highlights mine):





> In a recent written response to questions tabled in Parliament, Defence Minister Peter MacKay’s answers reveal that 2006 federal Conservative promises for 5 Wing Goose Bay are no longer part of the military’s plans.
> 
> Prior to the election that brought the Tories to power, Stephen Harper promised to station a new, 650-member rapid reaction army battalion at CFB Goose Bay, plus a new long-range unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) squadron at the base.
> 
> ...


Here's the written response (PDF).

Previous discussion on battalions, UAVs and election promises:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30747.0/all.html


----------



## OldSolduer (17 May 2012)

If they want drones, there are Reserve Bde HQs full of drones.....

OH!!! You meant drones that actually do things......sorry about that.


----------



## dimsum (17 May 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A bump with the latest on this one, from CBC.ca (highlights mine):Here's the written response (PDF).
> 
> Previous discussion on battalions, UAVs and election promises:
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30747.0/all.html



Phew.  :blotto:


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 May 2012)

> I wish to reaffirm that the defence team is working to fulfill our commitment for an *operational mandate* for Canadian Forces Base Goose Bay so that the Base, and the community, prospers for years to come. Minister Penashue and I look forward to announcing this *operational mandate* as soon as work is complete.
> 
> Our government is committed to ensuring a clear *operational mandate* for 5 Wing Goose Bay that takes advantage of its unique location and enhances the protection of Canadian sovereignty, including in the Arctic. CFB Goose Bay has numerous advantages for the Canadian Forces and our allies, including its unique location and the enthusiasm of Happy Valley-Goose Bay residents for a larger military role in their community. Our government has made major investments to ensure that our allies can take advantage of the training potential at CFB Goose Bay. It was our government that invested $20 million in resurfacing the runway at Goose Bay to ensure that the base remains a world-class facility. It was our government investing $300 million to decontaminate sites around the base that will generate important economic opportunities for the community. In recent years, Canadian Forces Base Goose Bay has been a hub for low-level allied flight training and I am pleased to note our German allies have returned to Goose Bay for this training.
> 
> ...


DND/CF Info-machine, 17 May 12 - also  attached if link doesn't work


----------



## SeaKingTacco (18 May 2012)

ProudNewfoundlander said:
			
		

> Well, a huge reason it was established and maintained was because of geographical similarity , especially during the former half of the Cold War. Even with simulators, having a tangible asset such as similar terrain was still seen as advantage. With the USSR no longer a threat, let alone not existing, a significant reason for the base was lost.
> 
> Some locals complained, but it never became that significant, and that certainly wouldn't lead to decreased use of the base. Out these ways its surprisingly easy to get something in the paper, and theres always people complaining about something. Go to anyone from this province and mention "call-in" and see the reaction you get.



Actually, you are quite wrong about the protesting from the locals not being significant.  I spent most of the spring of 1990 with my unit conducting security duties in Goose Bay, to prevent the locals from getting onto the runway and preventing flight operations, as a protest against low- level flying over Labrador.  There was probably a 100 man security force in place for the better part of two years, as a result of those protests.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 May 2012)

The latest, from the House of Commons, from Minister from the area Peter Penashue:





> Mr. Speaker, I can reaffirm that our government is working to fulfill our commitment for an operational mandate for 5 Wing Goose Bay that takes advantage of a unique location and enhances the protection of Canadian sovereignty, including in the Arctic.  Since 2006, our government has consistently worked to ensure the future viability of 5 Wing Goose Bay through investments, such as runway resurfacing and decontaminating sites around the base.


Some of the work done:
Replacing ATC radar
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/97377/post-987113.html#msg987113
Remediation under Area D
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/94797.0.html
What to do with the POL farm?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/79280.0
Privatizing bulk fuel storage
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/91798.0
Mapping "hydrocarbon plumes"
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/105700/post-1140166.html#msg1140166

And even this MERX listing I missed earlier this month:





> .... Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC) anticipates soliciting industry to deliver Site Support Services in support of the DND activities at 5 Wing Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada .... In order to ensure a successful procurement for the provision of the New Contract for Site Support Services activities at 5 Wing Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada, Industry shall be engaged in an engagement process as the first step in this solicitation. The engagement process includes an "Industry Engagement Session" followed by one-on-one "Industry Meetings" and Industry "Working Group Meetings", followed by the conventional RFP process ....


Edited to add link to bid documents (including how DND is going to engage industry and Aboriginal groups) here (via Google Docs)


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 May 2012)

> Ottawa is planning to turn 5 Wing Goose Bay into a full-fledged military base, according to Newfoundland and Labrador's representative in the federal cabinet, Peter Penashue.
> 
> In an interview for this week’s episode of On Point with David Cochrane, Penashue said Goose Bay will have a role to play in Canada's Arctic sovereignty.
> 
> ...


CBC.ca, 24 May 12

Re:  the bit in yellow, uh, the RCAF Info-machine seems to think Goose Bay is a Canadian Forces BASE.....


----------



## mad dog 2020 (24 May 2012)

I too spent a summer on security duties and I found it great as a young soldier. So I hope this works out. I found that in a semi isolated base you grow closer. For families though the resupply issue will be $$$$$$$$$$. The only  thing cheap was the foreign duty free messes.  Car insurance was very little as not much traffic or roads or skidoo or ATV to work.  
So what Regt would provide the Bn.  
Bring back YTEP........ Great place to start orvtrain haha.


----------



## dimsum (25 May 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> CBC.ca, 24 May 12
> 
> Re:  the bit in yellow, uh, the RCAF Info-machine seems to think Goose Bay is a Canadian Forces BASE.....



So what does he want to be put there, considering the Bn, UAVs and other assorted folks aren't going to be there?  I'd suggest keeping it as a "bare base" like the Aussies do; like a super-FOL that can be activated in an emergency and brought up to base status within x hours/days.  But now I'm just thinking common sense v. political sense.  I hate it when I do that.


----------



## armyvern (25 May 2012)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Actually, you are quite wrong about the protesting from the locals not being significant.  I spent most of the spring of 1990 with my unit conducting security duties in Goose Bay, to prevent the locals from getting onto the runway and preventing flight operations, as a protest against low- level flying over Labrador.  There was probably a 100 man security force in place for the better part of two years, as a result of those protests.



You're not lying. I was there too exactly because of those protests. Although I worked as part of an MP shift, I was on call for other shifts to perform searches of any females arrested - there were many - I hung out with the 119AD guys out of Chatam who were brought in as the security force. They were replaced by the VanDoos when 119AD was pulled to man defensive weapons on the HMCShips proceeding to Gulf War I. The only thing that ceased those protests was the deployment of US aircraft (thousands of 'em) and troops through Goose Bay on their way to the Gulf. They were crazy busy times.

The protesters were pretty significant. I once had to deal with a heavily pregnant local female whom had been arrested and loaded onto a school bus with others who were detained while trying to breach the flight line fence ... only to have her kick out the bus window and begin munching down glass (that's right) while thinking to myself, "WTF, you're pregnant honey". I'm not a small, weak female ... but mother of gawd she was a handful. They were certainly loud and very vocal coupled with quite determined. Certainly not insignificant.

My supervisor was an MP Sgt (Butch) who bet me a hundred bucks that I wouldn't get a crew cut. Silly man. 100 bucks was a lot for a Pte back then! That 100 bucks was spent purchasing 3 dollar trays of Heineken at the German mess, proper whiskeys at the Bulldog Club, and spinning the damn wheel for shooters at the bar immediately outside the front gate (I forget the name of the place, but will never forget the wheel). I can tell you to a scientific certainty that 9 times out of 10 ---- Vern will spin a Prairie Fire. Ughhhh. 

The entire time period was interesting indeed; busy as hell, with multitudes of weird and unforgettable experiences. Not insignificant in my life.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 May 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> .... the RCAF Info-machine seems to think Goose Bay is a Canadian Forces BASE.....


Correction issued via CBC.ca, with more interesting content....


> .... Penashue's office issued a correction Thursday after the remarks were published and broadcast, noting that 5 Wing — also known as Canadian Forces Base Goose Bay — has the status of a base.
> 
> Penashue's office also said the minister's comments about expected announcements on the expansion of 5 Wing still stand.
> 
> Said a spokesman for Penashue: "*5 Wing is not an operational base at present* and that is something that our government and Minister Penashue are determined to see changed."





			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> So what does he want to be put there?


Good question - I guess we'll have to wait until we hear more.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (25 May 2012)

Probably the TBG, also Germans are back doing flying ops there now....


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 May 2012)

More grist for the rumour mill, from MERX:





> .... The work includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the supply of labour, material, supervision and equipment necessary to perform concrete repairs in various areas of the Airfield, Goose Bay, NL .... The estimated cost for this opportunity is in the order of $1,562,500.00 ....


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Aug 2012)

> .... The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence will make an announcement at 5 Wing Goose Bay Monday, August 13. Media are invited to attend.
> 
> When: Monday, August 13, 2012
> 
> ...


CF/DND Info-machine media advisory, 12 Aug 12


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Aug 2012)

> The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, joined by the Honourable Peter Penashue, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and President of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada, today announced a major investment for infrastructure and remediation work at 5 Wing Goose Bay. The Minister announced two wing infrastructure improvement projects and 10 contract awards for remediation activities as part of the Goose Bay Remediation Project (GBRP)  .... Since the Second World War, 5 Wing Goose Bay has had a continuous international military presence. Infrastructure improvements include airfield concrete repairs and roof repairs to Building 354, for an investment of over CAN$2 million .... The GBRP is part of a larger Government of Canada initiative to assess and remediate federal contaminated sites. The 10 contracts awarded under the GBRP include fence installation, fuel recovery, upgrades to a fuel transfer area, soil and site remediation, environmental drilling, risk assessment, and survey work ....


News release, 13 Aug 12

From the Backgrounder:





> .... On August 13, 2012, two contract awards for Department of National Defence (DND) and Canadian Forces (CF) related infrastructure projects and 10 contract awards for remediation activities under the Goose Bay Remediation Project (GBRP) were announced. These contracts represent an investment of approximately $6.2 million, and were all awarded through open, fair and transparent processes.
> 
> *5 Wing Goose Bay Airfield* facilitates over 35,000 take offs and landings per year. In 2011, over 700 military aircraft accounted for close to 3,000 of those air movements.
> 
> ...


The Backgrounder also lists other remediation work that's been done on the base.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2012)

Even MORE work being done @ Goose Bay....

_“Dome Mountain PHC Soil Remediation, Goose Bay, NL. …. The work includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the supply of labour, material, and equipment necessary for the excavation and disposal of PHC impacted soil, re-instatement of site with clean material …. The estimated cost for this opportunity is in the order of $1,992,400.00 ….”_
_“Upper Tank Farm Storage Shed and Containment Pad Upgrade, Goose Bay, Newfoundland & Labrador
 …. The work includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the supply of labour, material, supervision and equipment necessary to perform upgrades to the upper tank farm area to include a new containment pad for 100,000 litre used oil tank and replacement of existing oil/intercept shed, Goose Bay, Newfoundland & Labrador …. The estimated cost for this opportunity is in the order of $235,000.00
.... ”_


----------



## McG (27 Nov 2012)

Even though planned growth positions have been stopped and budgets are being cut, some good ideas seem to keep on going:


> *Dunderdale mildly encouraged by report on 5 Wing Goose Bay*
> James McLeod
> The Telegram (St. John's)
> 27 Nov 2012
> ...


----------



## Good2Golf (28 Nov 2012)

So one would put 1% of the entire CF in Goose bay to do what?

Mme Dunderhill, what say you? (In an active, dialogue sense, vice passively waiting to be told what could be done...


----------



## dapaterson (28 Nov 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> So one would put 1% of the entire CF in Goose bay to do what?
> 
> Mme Dunderhill, what say you? (In an active, dialogue sense, vice passively waiting to be told what could be done...



To be fair, the Reg F is at ~68K, so the proposed 650 person unit in Goose Bay would be less than 1% of the Regular Force.

In terms of what they do: We could relocate the Auroras from Greenwood to Goose Bay.  Robbing Peter to pay Dunderdale.


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Nov 2012)

As Paul Harvey used to say, "Stand by for _news_...." - this media advisory from the PMO's Info-machine:


> .... Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador
> 
> 2:00 p.m. - Prime Minister Stephen Harper will make an announcement.  He will be joined by Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, Peter Penashue, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, with Kathy Dunderdale, Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Darrell Dexter, Premier of Nova Scotia.
> 
> ...


----------



## PPCLI Guy (30 Nov 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> In terms of what they do: We could relocate the Auroras from Greenwood to Goose Bay.  Robbing Peter to pay Dunderdale.



Very Machiavellian....and hence quite likely.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Aug 2013)

Bumped with the latest via CBC.ca ....


> The company that provides site services at 5 Wing Goose Bay has had its contract extended.
> 
> Serco, which provides everything from meals to firefighting on the base, has an 11-year contract with the federal government which was set to expire in March 2014.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Aug 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Bumped with the latest via CBC.ca ....
> 
> 
> > The company that provides site services at 5 Wing Goose Bay has had its contract extended.
> ...


More from the union ....


> Impending cuts to the 5 Wing Goose Bay weather station will negatively impact Ground Search and Rescue in Labrador and could cost lives.
> 
> That’s according to Bernie Bolger, president of Local 90125.
> 
> ...


_The Labradorian_, 21 Aug 13

More of the same from CBC.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2013)

Politicians, UP!


> The MP for Labrador has several meetings over the next couple of days on reductions at the weather office in Happy Valley-Goose Bay and the future of 5-Wing.
> 
> Yvonne Jones says Serco's manual weather operations will be replaced by an automated system, resulting in a number of cuts to personnel manning the station. Jones told VOCM Open Line with Bill Rowe that changes to the system will have a significant impact on the region - many fear it's just the first step in what will be the eventual demise of the base ....


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Aug 2013)

> Plans to axe four of six positions at the 5 Wing weather office has been axed itself.
> 
> Bernie Bolger, president of PSAC Local 90125, said he was contacted by officials at Serco — the Base service provider —at approximately 9:30 a.m. this morning that the 5 Wing weather office would not lose any positions, as was reported earlier this week.
> 
> ...


_The Labradorian_, 23 Aug 13


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## The Bread Guy (9 Jan 2014)

Two more years of Serco keeping the place running (at least) until March 2016:


> Serco Inc., a provider of professional, technology, and management services, announced today that the Company has been awarded a two-year contract extension by Public Works and Government Services Canada to provide site support services at the 5 Wing Canadian Forces Base in Goose Bay, Canada. This new contract extends the current 11-year agreement through March 2016. The extension is valued at just under $100 million over a two-year period.
> 
> Under the extension, Serco will continue to perform the majority of the non-military operation and maintenance functions at this base, which is located in Central Labrador. The base is comprised of two 10,000 foot runways, over 200 buildings totaling almost 275,000 sq. meters, and extensive civil infrastructure. The base has a training area that covers 130,000 sq. km.
> 
> The services provided by Serco include: Aviation Services, including Air Traffic Control and Navaids; Logistics Services, including Warehouse Operations, Snow and Ice Removal, Environmental Protection, Hazardous Waste Management and Material Control; and Facilities Management Services, including Engineering, Telecomm/IT, Electrical and Airfield Distribution Systems, Water Treatment, Central Heating Plant Operations, Grounds Maintenance, Security, Food Services and Janitorial Services ....


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jan 2014)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Two more years of Serco keeping the place running (at least) until March 2016:


.... but not necessarily with the same number of staff:


> 25 employees at 5-Wing Goose Bay have been given pink slips. The layoffs at Serco come on the heels of a new two year agreement with the Department of National Defence. Serco provides all non-military services on the base, things like fire fighting services, weather forecasting, and site maintenance.
> 
> Labrador MP Yvonne Jones calls Serco a major area employer. While she says she is pleased to see a contract extension, she was hoping for something more long term given the previous five-plus year contracts.
> 
> Meanwhile, The mayor of Happy Valley-Goose Bay says he was blind-sided by layoffs at 5 Wing Goose Bay. 25 civilian positions have been cut by SERCO, the company responsible for maintaining the base ....


More from CBC.ca:


> The union which represents civilian workers at 5 Wing Goose Bay says cuts to jobs and services this week do not bode well for the future of the base.
> 
> "The worst-case scenario is that Goose Bay could be reduced down to a commercial airport, and no military presence at all," said John MacLennan, president of the Union of National Defence Employees.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (21 Jan 2014)

The latest (but no sign of sharing the briefing note just yet) from CBC.ca - highlights mine:


> Department of National Defence briefing papers reveal a flurry of behind-the-scenes activity last year to find a new purpose for CFB 5 Wing Goose Bay, even while the facility was identified as the lowest-priority base in the country from a military operational perspective.
> 
> The loss of 25 jobs at the base last week has again stoked fears about Ottawa's long-term plans for 5 Wing.
> CBC Investigates logo CBC
> ...


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## Sub_Guy (21 Jan 2014)

I really don't see a need to keep that base open and I am willing to bet the majority of Canadians will agree.  

One could argue that we could place a LRP det there, but that would cost $$$$ and we have none!


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## Ostrozac (21 Jan 2014)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I really don't see a need to keep that base open and I am willing to bet the majority of Canadians will agree.
> 
> One could argue that we could place a LRP det there, but that would cost $$$$ and we have none!



As I understand it, one of the key issues with putting more capabilities into Goose Bay is that, because it's an isolated posting with a three-year tour length, if you greatly increase the number of people there then the career managers will end up spending all their money posting people in and out of Goose Bay. Money, as you pointed out, we don't have.


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## The Bread Guy (21 Jan 2014)

Still, two pretty-high-up bosses say "we're good to keep it open"* ....


> .... Two top officials — Gen. Tom Lawson, the chief of the defence staff, and Robert Fonberg, the deputy minister of National Defence — signed off on a briefing note and presentation prepared for the associate minister in January 2013.
> 
> “This brief will confirm that the [Canadian Armed Forces] and DND are committed to ensuring an enduring presence in Goose Bay,” they wrote ....


Standby all hands to cope ....

* - subject to 1)  the accuracy of the quote, and 2) what the rest of the briefing note, which hasn't been shared yet, may or may not have said to provide context.


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## George Wallace (21 Jan 2014)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> As I understand it, one of the key issues with putting more capabilities into Goose Bay is that, because it's an isolated posting with a three-year tour length, if you greatly increase the number of people there then the career managers will end up spending all their money posting people in and out of Goose Bay. Money, as you pointed out, we don't have.



At the same time: more people means more jobs; more infrastructure in the town; more businesses in town; more travel into and out of Goose Bay; etc.

One of the major problems up there now it the fact that the CAF and NATO partners have all but pulled out, leaving Goose Bay more or less a 'ghost town'.

Would this not be an opportunity to make a Ranger Group HQ up North rather than in Southern Ontario?


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## Ostrozac (21 Jan 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Would this not be an opportunity to make a Ranger Group HQ up North rather than in Southern Ontario?



Admitedly, Borden (3rd Ranger Patrol Group HQ) is a long way from Northern Ontario, but Labrador is even further. The HQ for 5th Ranger Patrol Group is in Gander. And since 5th Group has 12 patrols in Labrador and 20 in Newfoundland, then the island is probably the right place for the HQ.


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## George Wallace (21 Jan 2014)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Admitedly, Borden (3rd Ranger Patrol Group HQ) is a long way from Northern Ontario, but Labrador is even further. The HQ for 5th Ranger Patrol Group is in Gander. And since 5th Group has 12 patrols in Labrador and 20 in Newfoundland, then the island is probably the right place for the HQ.



That is a fact that I had no immediate info to consider.  Thank you for the clarification and correction to my spurious thought.


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## The Bread Guy (30 Jan 2014)

Latest from the House of Commons yesterday:


> *Ms. Yvonne Jones (Labrador, Lib.):*  Mr. Speaker, in May 2013, the government signed an internal agreement to increase services and staff at CFB Goose Bay, yet it is cutting jobs, eroding services, and providing no explanation. The Conservatives' commitment was to increase support services for training for northern regions, yet nothing has been implemented.  I ask the minister to make good on his commitment to 5 Wing Goose Bay, stop misleading working people, stop misleading and playing political games, and stop cutting first-line military staff in the country.
> 
> *Hon. Rob Nicholson (Minister of National Defence, CPC):   *Mr. Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth. After the decade of darkness that was implemented by the Liberal Party, we have made the support of our men and women in uniform and our armed forces a priority, and we will continue to do so.


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## NorthernProtector (30 Jan 2014)

Why not a winter warfare centre?


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## Good2Golf (30 Jan 2014)

NorthernProtector said:
			
		

> Why not a winter warfare centre?



Wainright isn't 'wintery' enough?


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## YZT580 (30 Jan 2014)

Are the people protesting the potential closure of Goose the same ones who argued so vehemently against the low level training?  Goose is a superb place to conduct advanced training.  With a little creative marketing and pricing incentives it could have become one of the premiere aeronautical training facilities  but when the local people didn't want any part of it, the customers went elsewhere.  Without the training, it is a white elephant and should be closed.  There are places that we have already shut down (Summerside comes to mind) that were far more strategically located and offered much greater opportunities for spousal satisfaction to waste a tear on the folks in Goose neighbourhood who fought so hard to ensure that the training went elsewhere.


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## George Wallace (30 Jan 2014)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Are the people protesting the potential closure of Goose the same ones who argued so vehemently against the low level training?  Goose is a superb place to conduct advanced training.  With a little creative marketing and pricing incentives it could have become one of the premiere aeronautical training facilities  but when the local people didn't want any part of it, the customers went elsewhere.  Without the training, it is a white elephant and should be closed.  There are places that we have already shut down (Summerside comes to mind) that were far more strategically located and offered much greater opportunities for spousal satisfaction to waste a tear on the folks in Goose neighbourhood who fought so hard to ensure that the training went elsewhere.



So true.


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## dimsum (30 Jan 2014)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Are the people protesting the potential closure of Goose the same ones who argued so vehemently against the low level training?  Goose is a superb place to conduct advanced training.  With a little creative marketing and pricing incentives it could have become one of the premiere aeronautical training facilities  but when the local people didn't want any part of it, the customers went elsewhere.  Without the training, it is a white elephant and should be closed.  There are places that we have already shut down (Summerside comes to mind) that were far more strategically located and offered much greater opportunities for spousal satisfaction to waste a tear on the folks in Goose neighbourhood who fought so hard to ensure that the training went elsewhere.



How dare you bring "common sense" and "evidence" to this?   >


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## The Bread Guy (23 Feb 2014)

Latest on the contractor layoffs, shared here in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the _Copyright Act_ ....


> The general manager of the Goose Bay Airport says layoffs on the military base will not have an impact on air traffic to the region.
> 
> Serco announced in January that it was cutting 25 jobs at 5 Wing Goose Bay.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (30 Apr 2014)

Updates from Canada's public tendering site (with a bit more detail in attached bid package)....


> .... Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC) anticipates soliciting Industry to deliver Site Support Services in support of the Department of National Defence (DND) activities at 5 Wing Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada. This requirement is expected to encompass all site support services as mandated by the Royal Canadian Air Force.  Prior to commencing with the procurement process it is Canada's intent to request information from Industry.
> 
> Delivery Date: 09/05/2014
> 
> The Crown retains the right to negotiate with suppliers on any procurement ....



.... and from NF media:


> The head of the union at CFB Goose Bay is raising more questions about the future of the facility. Bernie Bolger says a request for interest was recently issued to extend the contract for providing services at the base by another two years, with a further two year option. Bolger says that doesn't seem to indicate that there is a long term plan for the base.  Bolger says the union needs the help of the provincial government to press Ottawa on the matter ....


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## The Bread Guy (1 Jul 2014)

> INVITATION TO SUBMIT AN EXPRESSION OF INTEREST (EOI) TO OCCUPY SPACE IN HANGAR 7 AT 5 WING GOOSE BAY IN THE TOWN OF HAPPY VALLEY - GOOSE BAY, NL
> FILE NUMBER R.071403.001
> 
> (....)
> ...


Floor plan attached, with a few more details here.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Nov 2014)

This from buyandsell.gc.ca (also attached if link doesn't work):


> In accordance with the rules, regulations, statutes, guidelines and the professional associations of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, Defence Construction Canada (DCC) is calling for Abbreviated Proposals from firms to provide services specific to this Department of National Defence (DND) project, which will be located in 5 Wing Goose Bay, NL.
> 
> The objective of this project is to develop a remedial strategy and detailed design for contaminated sites.  The work will include the development of a Closure/Remedial Plan, Design Packages and provide Tender Phase Services (TPS) and Construction Phase Services (CPS) for remediation of the Eastern Dumps and impacted sediment in the adjacent Stillwaters at the South Escarpment area of 5 Wing Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador ....


Date closing:  2015/01/08 14:00 Eastern Standard Time (EST)


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## The Bread Guy (27 Jun 2016)

Blowing the dust off of this thread with this head's up from the info-machine:


> As part of the Government of Canada’s commitment to ensure Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel have the support they need, including safe and modern facilities in which to work and train, media are invited to attend an announcement by Defence Minister Harjit S. Sajjan regarding  defence infrastructure investments for 5 Wing Goose Bay.
> 
> Minister Sajjan will hold a media availability following the announcement.
> 
> ...


*** - That's 0950 Eastern
op:


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jun 2016)

From the Info-machine (highlights mine):


> As part of the Government’s commitment to ensure that Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) personnel have the support they need, including safe and modern facilities in which to work and train, Defence Minister Harjit S. Sajjan today announced *a $12 million investment for 5 Wing Goose Bay to improve critical infrastructure*.
> 
> This investment in 5 Wing Goose Bay will *permit the upgrade of the airfield through the replacement of ramps which have reached their life expectancy.* These ramps are essential for NORAD flying operations. A site survey will be carried out this year and work will be completed in 2018.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (19 Oct 2016)

More complaints about the RFP to run the place ...


> The Liberal member of Parliament for Labrador is calling on her own party to change the way requests for proposals are drawn up after a recently-announced contract at 5 Wing Goose Bay resulted in layoffs and pay cuts for dozens of employees.
> 
> Yvonne Jones said the two-year contract, awarded to Serco, the long-time provider of non-military services, doesn't allow enough wiggle room for expensive capital purchases.
> 
> ...


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## Kirkhill (19 Oct 2016)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> More complaints about the RFP to run the place ...


Presumably the Defence Review will determine if there is a long term need for Goose Bay......

 :crickets:


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