# Substantive Rank [MERGED]



## Spidron (11 Sep 2006)

Hi folks:

I recently saw a PER that gave a rank followed by the word 'substantive'. I suspect this means _permanent_, but I am not sure.


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## Trinity (11 Sep 2006)

Only if it follows Corporal or Captain.  ;D ;D 


Honestly.. joking aside, no idea.
Just couldn't pass up a CFL joke!


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## beach_bum (11 Sep 2006)

It means the person isn't "acting lacking" or "while so employed".


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## 211RadOp (11 Sep 2006)

If you are promoted without being qualified for the rank (eg appointed to MCpl without a leadership course) you are granted an acting rank. Upon completion of the qualification required for the rank, you are then substantive (qualified) in that rank.

I couldn't find a dictionary definition.


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## Standards (11 Sep 2006)

Substantive - adj. dealing with real or important matters.
- from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English

In accordance with my old PER writing manual, "the rank used will be the substantive rank held by the member at the end of the reporting period".

If someone actually wrote "substantive" in the PER, I assume it was because the individual had previously been acting or WSE and the drafter wanted to ensure the chnage in status was noted.


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## ryanhd20 (26 Apr 2017)

Hello,

I am trying to find the technical version of what substantive rank level actually means. Is it fully qualified to hold that rank? Also, are there any circumstances in which you can lose your substantive rank level?

I did come across this QR&O:
3.03 - SUBSTANTIVE RANK
(1) The substantive rank of an officer is the officer's confirmed rank.
(2) The substantive rank of a non-commissioned member is that rank below which the member cannot be reduced otherwise than by:
a sentence of a service tribunal; or
reversion for inefficiency or misconduct. (See articles 11.10 - Reversion and Remustering for Inefficiency and 11.11 - Reversion upon Conviction by a Civil Authority).

The reason I am asking is because I was promoted to substantive MCpl in March/2015, but just recently they realized I did not have Army portion of PLQ. I am just wondering if that substantive can be taken away at all. 

Thanks for any insight


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## brihard (26 Apr 2017)

ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I am trying to find the technical version of what substantive rank level actually means. Is it fully qualified to hold that rank? Also, are there any circumstances in which you can lose your substantive rank level?
> 
> ...



Master Corporal is technically an appointment and not a rank- this is why a Sgt will be demoted to Cpl, or a MCpl will be demoted to Pte. It's why 'MCpl' doesn't appear on the pay scales. My understanding is this is a legacy of back in the day when MCpl was initially created; making it an appointment instead of a rank made it easier to make it happen, but has had some odd ramifications.

Potentially they could bump you back down to Cpl. In practice I think it's much more likely they'll get you on a PLQ-Army ASAP.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2017)

ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> I am trying to find the technical version of what substantive rank level actually means.



What does ''Substantive" mean? 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/50104.0


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## ryanhd20 (26 Apr 2017)

This is a portion of my message:

2.  CURRENT RANK: CPL EFF DATE: 29 JUL 05 SEN DATE: 13 JUL 11 EPZ 
DATE: 13 JUL 13
3.  PROMOTED TO SUBSTANTIVE MCPL EFF DATE: 2 MAR 15 SEN DATE: 1 JAN 
15 EPZ DATE: 1 JAN 17


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## ryanhd20 (26 Apr 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> What does ''Substantive" mean?
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/50104.0



Thanks. That is what I was thinking, but would really like to find something more concrete. I was under the impression that substantive meant fully qualified,, hence there would be no reason for me to complete that last portion of PLQ. But, I would love to find something regarding losing substantive.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2017)

ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> Thanks.



You are welcome. Good luck.


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## Gunner98 (27 Apr 2017)

ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> The reason I am asking is because I was promoted to substantive MCpl in March/2015, but just recently they realized I did not have Army portion of PLQ. I am just wondering if that substantive can be taken away at all.
> 
> Thanks for any insight



It is likely that you could/will revert to a MCpl (Acting Lacking) until you complete the Army portion of the PLQ.  There is no reason to take away the appointment unless you do not complete the requirement in the prescribed time.  It used to be 5 years from the commencement of any portion of the PLQ qualification courses.


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## CountDC (28 Apr 2017)

Substantive is someone that fully meets all the prereqs for appointment/promotion.  In your case they made an error on the message and should have appointed you acting. The action taken should be to issue an amendment changing it.  I had the opposite case in that the initial read acting when it should have read substantive and the CM amended it via an email so maybe yours will do the same.


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## Lumber (28 Apr 2017)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Substantive is someone that fully meets all the prereqs for appointment/promotion.  In your case they made an error on the message and should have appointed you acting. The action taken should be to issue an amendment changing it.  I had the opposite case in that the initial read acting when it should have read substantive and the CM amended it via an email so maybe yours will do the same.



Wait, hold on. Is the requirement for promotion appointment to MCpl PLQ, or PLQ + PLQ Army portion?

The reason I ask is that, we _*have*_ a "Navy" portion of PLQ as well, but you aren't actually required to do it. We are desperate to get our members on PLQ as quickly as possible, and as a result, we have some of our members conducting AIR FORCE PLQ in Borden, including doing the introductory "Air Force" portion of PLQ, even though it has absolutely no value to our naval members. As far as our system is concerned, once they've achieved the "core" PLQ, they are eligble for appointment to MS, even though they haven't completed PLQ"Navy". And, they are promoted Substantive, not Acting-Lacking.

So, perhaps there was no error? Yes he missed the desired "Army" portion, but as far as the CAF is concerned (not the Army, but the CAF), he's met all the requirements for promotion appointment to MS IAW CFAO 49-4?

Cheers


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## ryanhd20 (28 Apr 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Wait, hold on. Is the requirement for promotion appointment to MCpl PLQ, or PLQ + PLQ Army portion?
> 
> The reason I ask is that, we _*have*_ a "Navy" portion of PLQ as well, but you aren't actually required to do it. We are desperate to get our members on PLQ as quickly as possible, and as a result, we have some of our members conducting AIR FORCE PLQ in Borden, including doing the introductory "Air Force" portion of PLQ, even though it has absolutely no value to our naval members. As far as our system is concerned, once they've achieved the "core" PLQ, they are eligble for appointment to MS, even though they haven't completed PLQ"Navy". And, they are promoted Substantive, not Acting-Lacking.
> 
> ...



So I did my PLQ in 2010 when I was in the navy. I was promoted to MCpl substantive in 2015. Also there is something about substantive in QR&O's:

3.03 - SUBSTANTIVE RANK
(1) The substantive rank of an officer is the officer's confirmed rank.
(2) The substantive rank of a non-commissioned member is that rank below which the member cannot be reduced otherwise than by:
a sentence of a service tribunal; or
reversion for inefficiency or misconduct. (See articles 11.10 - Reversion and Remustering for Inefficiency and 11.11 - Reversion upon Conviction by a Civil Authority).

This may have been a clerical error, but I am not sure if they can just take it away, especially after 2 years, in which time I have received 3 PER's as a MCpl none of which indicate any type of performance issue relating to performing the job at the rank I hold.

I also have some documentation from CDA which may be working in my favour. There are also 3 WO who are privy to the situation, all of which who believe I have a strong case for a grievance.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Apr 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Wait, hold on. Is the requirement for promotion appointment to MCpl PLQ, or PLQ + PLQ Army portion?
> 
> The reason I ask is that, we _*have*_ a "Navy" portion of PLQ as well, but you aren't actually required to do it. We are desperate to get our members on PLQ as quickly as possible, and as a result, we have some of our members conducting AIR FORCE PLQ in Borden, including doing the introductory "Air Force" portion of PLQ, even though it has absolutely no value to our naval members. As far as our system is concerned, once they've achieved the "core" PLQ, they are eligble for appointment to MS, even though they haven't completed PLQ"Navy". And, they are promoted Substantive, not Acting-Lacking.
> 
> ...



The introductory *air force* portion of PLQ at the RCAF Academy is actually a qual; PAEQ, Primary Air Environmental Qualification.  Like the Army has BMQ-L and the Navy has NETP etc, we have Basic AEQ (DP1), Primary AEQ (DP2) and as a Sgt there is Intermediate AEQ (formerly known as the Sgts Seminar).

I thought the RCAF Academy PLQ was the new (again) CF PLQ;  same QS and TP across the board with the army bolt-on stuff for those who work in the C Army.


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## PuckChaser (30 Apr 2017)

The CAF considers you a substantive MCpl on completion of PLQ Common (You did this in the RCN). The Army will require you to complete AJLC to be able to move on in your career to Sgt. It's all in a CANFORGEN from last year outlining the changes.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Apr 2017)

One of these ones?

CANFORGEN 051/16 CMP 030/16 301823Z MAR 16
*IMPLEMENTATION OF CANADIAN ARMED FORCES PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION*
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF GUIDANCE TO THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES DATED 7 JUNE 2013 
B. CFAO 49-4 CAREER POLICY NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS - REGULAR FORCE 
C. CF MIL PERS INSTR 01/16 NCM PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT LEADERSHIP PROGRAMMES ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES

1.	THIS CANFORGEN IS THE IMPLEMENTATION ORDER FOR THE DELIVERY OF A COMMON CAF PLQ EFFECTIVE 2 MAY 2016. THE HARMONIZED PLQ IS AN IMPORTANT STEP TOWARDS IMPROVEMENTS IN LEADING THE PROFESSION OF ARMS AS DIRECTED AT REF A SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THE DIRECTION TO QUOTE IN THIS TIME OF FISCAL CONSTRAINTS, HOWEVER, WE MUST ALSO ASK OURSELVES HOW TO DELIVER THE REQUISITE DEVELOPMENTAL EFFORTS MORE EFFICIENTLY, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE CONSIDER NEW APPROACHES TO TRAINING, LEARNING AND EDUCATION END QUOTE 

2.	THE AIM OF THE HARMONIZED PLQ (HEREFORTH CALLED PLQ) IS TO AMALGAMATE THE CAF PLQ AND THE PLQ-ARMY INTO A COMMON PLQ THAT SERVES ALL CAF NCM S. WHILE RELATED THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMAND SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT PART OF THIS COMMON PROGRAM AND WILL BE ADDRESSED IN INDIVIDUAL SERVICE SPECIFIC TRAINING 

3.	THE PLQ TRAINING PLAN (TP) WRITING BOARD WAS CONVENED JANUARY 2015 WITH REPRESENTATION FROM THE THREE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMANDS AND MILITARY PERSONNEL GENERATION (MPG). THE TP HAS BEEN REVIEWED AND IS NOW APPROVED. THE PLQ IS STRUCTURED AS FOLLOWS: 
A.	MODULE 1 (CRSE ID 120814) CONSISTS OF NINE TRAINING DAYS DELIVERED VIA DL WHICH MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN NINE WEEKS 
B.	MODULE 2 (CRSE ID 120815) CONSISTS OF 10 TRAINING DAYS DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE AT AUTHORIZED TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS (TE) FOR REG F AND IN RESIDENCE AT UNIT, CBG SCHOOL OR AUTHORIZED TE FOR PRES. PRES UNIT/CBG SCHOOL CAN ONLY CONDUCT THE TRAINING IF ALL NECESSARY RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE, OTHERWISE, MOD 2 MUST OCCUR AT AN AUTHORIZED TE AS NOTED IN PARA 6E 
C.	MODULE 3 (CRSE ID 120816) CONSISTS OF 16 TRAINING DAYS DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE AT AUTHORIZED TE FOR BOTH REG F AND PRES 
D.	AS A NORM, MODS 2 AND 3 WILL BE DELIVERED AS A SINGLE BLOCK FOR REG F BUT MAY BE DELIVERED AS SEPARATE BLOCKS FOR P RES OR FOR REG F IN SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES 
E.	MODULES MUST BE COMPLETED SEQUENTIALLY, MOD 1 - MOD 2 - MOD 3 
F.	STUDENTS MUST ATTEND A MOD 3 SESSION WITHIN 12 MONTHS OF COMPLETING MOD 1 EXCEPT FOR P RES WHO TAKE THE TRAINING AS PER SUB- PARA 3.D. WHERE THE TIMELINE SHALL BE EXTENDED TO A MAXIMUM OF 18 MONTHS

4.	TASKS TO BE COMPLETED PRIOR TO THE IMPLEMENTATION ARE AS FOLLOWS: 
A.	MPG HQ WILL REVISE THE RESIDENTIAL LEARNING (RL) PACKAGE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL TES. ALL RETURNS WERE DUE TO MPG HQ BY END FEB 2016. MPG HQ WILL DISTRIBUTE THE MASTER LESSON PLANS (MLP) IN BOTH OFFICIAL LANGUAGES BY END MARCH 2016 
B.	CFLRS WILL COMPLETE THE DL COURSEWARE TO INCLUDE MOUNTING ON THE DEFENCE LEARNING NETWORK (DLN) AND READY FOR USE BY 2 MAY 2016

5.	TRANSITION. IT IS RECOGNIZED THAT THERE ARE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PERS PARTIALLY TRAINED USING THE CURRENT PLQ DL. WHILE THERE IS NO GAP FOR CA MEMBERS, THERE IS A GAP FOR THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE CAF PLQ. IN ORDER TO AVOID GAPS IN TRAINING AND REDUCE THE POTENTIAL DUPLICATION OF TRAINING, THE FOLLOWING TRANSITIONAL PARAMETERS WILL APPLY UPON IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PLQ: 
A.	THE FINAL CAF PLQ DL SERIAL 0034 WILL END MAR 2016 
B.	THE FINAL PLQ-A DL SERIAL WILL COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 31 MAR 2016 
C.	THE CAF PLQ RL WILL CONTINUE FOR THE FINAL SIX SCHEDULED SERIALS STARTING BETWEEN APR-AUG 2016. ALL PERS QUALIFIED CAF PLQ DL MUST BE LOADED ON THESE SERIALS. PERS QUALIFIED CAF PLQ DL FAILING TO ATTEND THE CAF PLQ RL FINAL SERIALS WILL BE REQUIRED TO ATTEND BOTH THE PLQ DL AND RL 
D.	CA TO ENSURE ALL CA MANAGED PERS QUALIFIED PLQ-A MOD 1 ARE LOADED ON PLQ RL SERIALS NO LATER THAN 31 MAY 2016

6.	TIMELINES. THE FOLLOWING TIMELINES WILL APPLY TO THE PLQ: 
A.	EFFECTIVE 2 MAY 2016 PLQ DL SERIALS WILL COMMENCE. THEY WILL BE DELIVERED BY CFLRS, 2 CDN DIV TC, AND 5 CDN DIV TC C. EFFECTIVE 1 JUN 2016 THE CA COULD COMMENCE DELIVERY OF THE PLQ RL D. EFFECTIVE 1 OCT 2016 RCAF ACADEMY BORDEN, CFFS ESQUIMALT, CFLRS SAINT-JEAN AND CFNOS HALIFAX WILL DELIVER THE PLQ RL E. THE PLQ RL WILL BE OFFERED AT THE FOLLOWING APPROVED TE: RCAF ACADEMY BORDEN, CFFS ESQUIMALT, CFLRS SAINT-JEAN, CFNOS HALIFAX, 2 CDN DIV TC VALCARTIER, 3 CDN DIV TC WAINWRIGHT, 4 CDN DIV TC PETAWAWA, AND 5 CDN DIV TC GAGETOWN. LOADING TO THE NEAREST TRAINING ESTABLISHMENT SHALL BE RETAINED AS AN OPTION WHERE IT MEETS TRAINING NEEDS, AND MAKES SENSE TO DECREASE TD COSTS AND TRAVEL TIME AWAY FROM HOME UNIT AND FAMILY F. MPG NCM PD CELL WILL CONDUCT STANDARDS ASSISTANCE VISITS TO ENSURE SEAMLESS TRANSITION TO THE CAF PLQ. DETAILS WILL BE PROVIDED VIA SEPCOR

7.	THE LOADING PROCESS REMAINS UNCHANGED: 
A.	PRIORITIES IAW REF B AND C TO BE USED 
B.	MEMBERS CANNOT BE LOADED UNTIL THE PRE-REQUISITES ARE SATISFIED 
C.	IAW CURRENT PRACTICE ALL EFFORTS TO OPTIMIZE THROUGHPUT AT EACH TE MUST BE MAINTAINED BY MAX LOADING EACH SERIAL 
D.	TE S TO IDENTIFY SEATS AVAILABLE SHORT OF THE MAX LOAD TO MPG HQ BY COURSE START DATE MINUS 30 DAYS. MPG IN CONJUCTION WITH THE ENVIRONMENTS WILL SOURCE CANDIDATES TO FILL REMAINING SEATS THROUGH COORDINATION WITH MITE MATCHERS AND COMMISSIONERS

8.	TE HAS BEEN FUNDED BASED ON DESIGNATED SERIALS. THE CURRENT FUNDING MODEL REMAINS IN EFFECT. TE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR FUNDING ALL CANDIDATES ON THEIR SERIALS AND ADDITIONAL FUNDING PRESSURES ARE TO BE IDENTIFIED THROUGH NORMAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT CHANNELS 

9.	THE HARMONIZED CAF PLQ INTRODUCES COMMON LEADERSHIP TRAINING THAT INCREASES EFFICIENCIES AND EFFECTIVENESS INTO THE NCM PD SYSTEM IN SUPPORT OF A RELEVANT AND RESILIENT PROFESSION OF ARMS 

10.	QUESTIONS MAY BE DIRECTED TO THE MPG HQ NCM PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT CELL AT CSN XXX-XXXX


CANFORGEN 080/16 COMD CA 010/16 021800Z MAY 16
DP2 LAND ENVIRONMENT LEADERSHIP TRAINING
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANFORGEN 051/16 CMP 030/16 301823Z MAR 16 
B. CANFORGEN 092/15 COMD CA 019/15 191700Z MAY 15 
C. CANFORGEN 101/08 CMP 040/08 031334Z JUN 08 

1.	AT REF A, MIL PERS GEN (MPG) ANNOUNCED DETAILS OF THE PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION (PLQ) INITIATIVE THAT HAS NOW ALIGNED DP2 NCM LEADERSHIP TRAINING ACROSS ALL CAF ENVIRONMENTS SO THAT ALL NCMS, REGARDLESS OF ENVIRONMENT, RECEIVE COMMON TRAINING BASED UPON A COMMON QUALIFICATION STANDARD (QS). STAFFS IN THE CA HAVE BEEN ENGAGED WITH MPG TO ENSURE CA REQUIREMENTS FOR JUNIOR LEADERS ARE SATISFIED AND TO SUPPORT THIS WORTHWHILE CAF INITIATIVE 

2.	A NOTABLE CHANGE AT REF A IS THAT JUNIOR LEADERS ARE CONSIDERED TO HAVE ACHIEVED THE DP2 PLQ QUALIFICATION UPON SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF PLQ MOD THREE. THE EXISTING CA PLQ A/PLQ INF MODULES, MOD 4, ARE THEREFORE NO LONGER CONSIDERED PART OF PLQ DESPITE THEIR SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION REMAINING ESSENTIAL FOR ARMY JUNIOR LEADERS 

3.	CCA HAS THEREFORE DIRECTED CA STAFFS TO RETAIN THE MATERIAL OF FORMER PLQ A/INF MOD FOUR AND PREPARE TWO NEW AND SEPARATE QS/TPS TO ALLOW DELIVERY OF THIS TRAINING. WHAT WAS FORMERLY PLQ A/INF MOD FOUR WILL HENCEFORTH BE KNOWN AS DP2 ARMY JUNIOR LEADER CRSE (AJLC) AND DP2 INFANTRY JUNIOR LEADER CRSE (IJLC)

4.	COMPLETION OF AJLC OR IJLC WILL REMAIN A MANDATORY PREREQUISITE FOR ALL CA PERSONNEL AS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH 4 OF REF B TO RECEIVE SUBSTANTIVE APPOINTMENT TO MCPL

5.	CA COURSE LOADING PROCEDURES FOR ALL CA RUN DP2 LEADERSHIP TRAINING WILL CONTINUE TO BE MANAGED BY CTC HQ AND WILL BE IAW FIELD FORCE (FF) AND CAREER MANAGER (CM) DEMAND AND MOSID MANNING REQUIREMENTS. DP2 LEADERSHIP COURSES TO INCLUDE PLQ, AJLC, AND IJLC WILL CONTINUE TO BE DELIVERED AT CA TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS (TES). AJLC/IJLC WILL BE CONDUCTED IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING COMPLETION OF PLQ FOR ALL REGULAR FORCE NCMS AND THE MAJORITY OF PRES NCMS. PLQ REMAINS AVAILABLE IN A MODULARIZED FORMAT FOR PRES PERS IAW WITH THE TIMELINES IDENTIFIED IN REF A. SINCE AJLC/IJLC ARE NOW SEPARATE FROM PLQ, THERE IS NO TIMELINE IMPOSED FOR THEIR CONDUCT FOLLOWING SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF PLQ BUT, AS THE SKILLS ACQUIRED IN PLQ ARE NECESSARY FOR SUCCESS ON AJLC/IJLC, IT IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL TO COMPLETE THIS TRG AS SOON AS IS PRACTICAL AFTER PLQ 

6.	FOR ARMY PERSONNEL SUBJECT TO REF B, COURSE PREREQUISITES, STUDENT NOMINATION, AND LOADING PROCEDURES WILL NOT CHANGE. BMQ L REMAINS A PRE-REQUISITE FOR CA PERS TO ATTEND PLQ, AJLC AND IJLC TRG. STUDENT NOMINATIONS FOR INFMN, CRMN, AND ARTYMN WILL REMAIN AT THE DISCRETION AND SUGGESTION OF UNIT COS. STUDENT NOMINATION FOR THE REMAINING MOSIDS OUTLINED IN REF B, WILL REMAIN WITH THE RESPECTIVE CMS. ALL CA STUDENTS UNDERGOING TRAINING AT CA TES WILL BE COURSE LOADED BY CTCHQ STAFF 

7.	ARMY DP2 LEADERSHIP TRAINING IS CRITICAL TO ENSURING CA JUNIOR LEADERS ARE AFFORDED ACCESS TO THE KNOWLEDGE, TRAINING, AND EXPERIENCE NECESSARY FOR BUILDING THE STRONG LEADERSHIP SKILLS AND CONFIDENCE THE CA DEMANDS OF ITS JUNIOR LEADERS


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## Lumber (30 Apr 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The CAF considers you a substantive MCpl on completion of PLQ Common (You did this in the RCN). The Army will require you to complete AJLC to be able to move on in your career to Sgt. It's all in a CANFORGEN from last year outlining the changes.



Based on EITS' post, I think he might be shit out of luck: 

Para 3 and 4:




> CANFORGEN 080/16 COMD CA 010/16 021800Z MAY 16
> DP2 LAND ENVIRONMENT LEADERSHIP TRAINING
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> ...



Based on this, he will be considered PLQ qualified, but that won't matter, because appointment to MCPL for CA pers now requires more than just PLQ.


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## PuckChaser (30 Apr 2017)

That's the ones, thanks. By CAD standards you're substantive, but not by Army standards. When you're talking about rank reversion due to non-completion of AJLC, it depends on the reason. There's a recent CANFORGEN covering medical issues, basically removing the CAFs ability to take away your rank if you medically cannot complete the course.


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## ryanhd20 (30 Apr 2017)

Thank you for all the input. I guess I was hoping for answers with a bit more clarity. I am not disputing the CANFORGENS at all, and I understand the requirements, but based on some of the information and references I have found, and speaking with a handful of Warrants and some CPO outside the unit, I believe I have a solid case to make. The Warrants at my unit (supervisor included) all feel like a grievance is the best option.

I do not want to disclose all my information I have received, as I am not sure who exactly is on here. Thanks again for all the info


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## ModlrMike (30 Apr 2017)

The timelines as I understand them:

- trained 2010
- promoted 2015
- CANFORGEN 2016

I should think his substantive would stand. He appears to have been promoted IAW the rules in place at the time, therefore any new rules should not adversely affect him. In order to rescind his promotion, someone would have to go through CMP. This is not an action that can be summarily enforced at the unit level. I would suggest that he has a viable grievance if his rank is taken away.


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## mariomike (30 Apr 2017)

Timeline reference for discussion,



			
				ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> 2009 - Promoted to MS
> 2010 - Completed CF PLQ
> 2011 - VOT to army trade
> 2013 - Completed SQ
> ...


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## ryanhd20 (30 Apr 2017)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The timelines as I understand them:
> 
> - trained 2010
> - promoted 2015
> ...



Thanks, good point. Will also bring that to the table. On the other hand there is a CANFORGEN from 2008 I think stating all the trades required to take the PLQ-A. Although at that time I was still not Army


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## George Wallace (30 Apr 2017)

ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> Thanks, good point. Will also bring that to the table. On the other hand there is a CANFORGEN from 2008 I think stating all the trades required to take the PLQ-A. Although at that time I was still not Army



You may find that it is that "change to Army" that may do you in, and require you taking the PLQ-A now that you are "Army".


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## ryanhd20 (30 Apr 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You may find that it is that "change to Army" that may do you in, and require you taking the PLQ-A now that you are "Army".



I agree, however the original promotion message from 2015 stated a change of rank to MCpl substantive. That is what I am arguing. There are references and information out there that I have found alluding to the fact that substantive just cant be taken away.


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## PuckChaser (30 Apr 2017)

So you have no real reason not to do the course, just simply think you're above doing it? Did you think you were above doing SQ as a Cpl? If you have a medical reason not to complete it, that's a completely different reason than evading the course for personal reasons. If you don't want to complete the requirements, you hand in your appointment. It's pretty simple. Go ahead and grieve it, you'll lose and waste more then the 4 weeks AJLC takes to complete.

I wasn't tracking the timeline info, was hard to pick up on my phone. My apologies.


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## ryanhd20 (30 Apr 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So you have no real reason not to do the course, just simply think you're above doing it? Did you think you were above doing SQ as a Cpl? If you have a medical reason not to complete it, that's a completely different reason than evading the course for personal reasons. If you don't want to complete the requirements, you hand in your appointment. It's pretty simple. Go ahead and grieve it, you'll lose and waste more then the 4 weeks AJLC takes to complete.
> 
> I wasn't tracking the timeline info, was hard to pick up on my phone. My apologies.



Thanks for the positive input. Based on the advice from my supervisor, as well as other senior Warrants at the unit, and some info/advice from other senior members in the Forces (one of which is at DMIL/C), I believe I have a legitimate case. They have actually recommended proceeding with this. If they told me that there was no case and that I would lose then I would proceed on the course. I do not need to inform you of all the information I have. I was simply coming here looking for some clarity. You are not fully aware of the full situation or any of the advice I have been given. Thank you though for making assumptions.
Funny you should mention SQ. I had no issue doing it, but many of the instructors were questioning why someone with 13 years in the Forces was there. They were puzzled.


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## George Wallace (30 Apr 2017)

ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> Funny you should mention SQ. I had no issue doing it, but many of the instructors were questioning why someone with 13 years in the Forces was there. They were puzzled.



Not much different than instructors questioning why a member had Operational Jump Wings and a medal or two and is now doing BMQ.  Things like that happen and instructors will always be puzzled.  (Yes.  This has happened.)


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## Navy_Pete (30 Apr 2017)

In general, every trade occupational specification, aka the OcSpec (pronounced awk-speck)  will list exactly what is required to for each rank (combination of QL courses, specific qualifications, etc).

There used to be a big database that was easy to find on the occupational manager website, but they may or may not have moved it.  You can get to their from EMAA and going to 'my career' where you pick your posting prefs etc.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Apr 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Wait, hold on. Is the requirement for promotion appointment to MCpl PLQ, or PLQ + PLQ Army portion?



Fly poop out of pepper point, but the appointment of MCpl is still treated like a promotion, much the same as a Avr/Pte/AB getting their first "hook".  I am trying to remember where I read it, I believe its in a CFAO.


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## Lumber (30 Apr 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> *Fly poop out of pepper point*, but the appointment of MCpl is still treated like a promotion, much the same as a Avr/Pte/AB getting their first "hook".  I am trying to remember where I read it, I believe its in a CFAO.



Go home EITS, you're drunk!  ;D 
 :cheers:


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Apr 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Timeline reference for discussion,



I think MarioMike captured something key in his quote from the other thread;



			
				ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> Good Morning,
> 
> First time poster. I will just lay out the facts:
> 2009 - Promoted to MS
> ...



The part in yellow is important, IMO.  We relinquish our rank when we remuster, and our QL (at least I did...went from Army Sgt to AF Cpl QL0 and then, again back to QLO on my final remuster).  So, the question that might need to be answered is, what were the rules for C Army Jnr NCOs to be MCpl Substantive when you were promoted (to the appointment of MCpl  8)) at the time your promotion was Eff?  I left the green machine a decade ago and haven't really followed the whole Army PLQ deal that much, but my memory tells me its changed numerous times.

I've some experience with grievances and you might find time spent on that question is worth it, as I think that is what the question would come down to.  This is the key IMO, to your question of if you are/are not Substantive.  I believe the grievance analyst would also find this very relevant to your situation.  Your CF PLQ would have made you MCpl Substantive when you were still Navy but quite possibly *not* when you OT to Army and got your Leaf back in 2015.  It is possible the Substantive was in error.

I had thought before MarioMike posted that, that you were a purple trade and was going to say that Environmental training can be taken when moving between Environments regardless of Substantive rank on posting.  Example, if you were say, a Supply Tech Sgt and got posted to a Wing, you would likely find yourself on the IAEQ (Intermediate Air Environmental Qualification course).

Some more info for you to consider here, in Section 7.   http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5031-8.page.  Take a look at the Section 7.3 DP2 stuff and consider it WRT your VOT to Army and promotion to MCpl.

I haven't reviewed all the orders etc in detail, and no doubt double-digit amount of CANFORFENs regarding PLQ and the like in the past few years, but...if you grieved and won, you'd probably still end up taking the applic mods the C Army folks have to do IAW the CANFORGENs under the *required environmental course / trg requirements* stuff, much like the Army DEU Supply Tech Sgt would have to do when he/she was posted to a Wing for the first time.   :2c:


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Apr 2017)

Just reviewing the CANFORGENs I posted earlier, here is the point I would start working backwards if I were you.  Specifically, the CANFORGEN in Ref B, which then leads to another CANFORGEN.  I'll post them here.

CANFORGEN 080/16 COMD CA 010/16 021800Z MAY 16
DP2 LAND ENVIRONMENT LEADERSHIP TRAINING
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANFORGEN 051/16 CMP 030/16 301823Z MAR 16 
B. CANFORGEN 092/15 COMD CA 019/15 191700Z MAY 15 
C. CANFORGEN 101/08 CMP 040/08 031334Z JUN 08 

4.   COMPLETION OF AJLC OR IJLC WILL REMAIN A MANDATORY PREREQUISITE FOR ALL CA PERSONNEL AS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH 4 OF REF B TO RECEIVE SUBSTANTIVE APPOINTMENT TO MCPL


CANFORGEN 092/15 COMD CA 019/15 191700Z MAY 15    
PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY IMPLEMENTATION UPDATE
UNCLASSIFIED

REF: A.CANFORGEN 031/13 COMD CA 006/13 211813Z FEB 13 PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY (PLQ-A) 
B. A-PD-055-002/PP-002 NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBER GENERAL SPECIFICATION NCMGS) DATED 9 FEB 11 
C. A-PD-002-PLQ-PC-B01 QUALIFICATION STANDARD DP2 ARMY PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION DATED 19 MAY 11 
D. A-PD-002-PLQ-PH-B01 TRAINING PLAN - DP2 ARMY PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION DATED 15 MAY 2012 
E. CANFORGEN 101/08 CMP 040/08 031334Z JUN 08 COMMON DP1/DP2 TRAINING REQUIREMENTS FOR CONTEMPORARY CF LAND WARFARE

1.	THIS MESSAGE RESCINDS IN TOTALITY THE CANFORGEN AT REF A. 

2.	BACKGROUND. IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE MOST RECENT REVIEW OF THE NCM PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT SYSTEM AND THE REVISED NCM GENERAL SPECIFICATION (NCMGS) AT REF B, CHANGES WERE MADE TO THE ARMY QUALIFICATION STANDARD AND TRAINING PLAN FOR PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - LAND IN 2012. THESE CHANGES HAVE RESULTED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF A FOUR MODULE SYSTEM WITH A NEW COURSE NAME: PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY (PLQ-A).

3.	COURSE STRUCTURE. THE PLQ-A IS STRUCTURED AS FOLLOWS: 
A.	MODULE 1 - MODULE DELIVERED VIA DISTANCE LEARNING (DL) BY 5 CDN DIV TRAINING CENTRE (TC) FOR ENGLISH SERIALS, AND 2 CDN DIV TC FOR FRENCH SERIALS. 
B.	MODULE 2 - MODULE DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE (FULL- TIME FORMAT) EITHER AT THE CDN DIV TCS OR AT CBG SCHOOLS FOR THE PRIMARY RESERVE (PRES). 
C.	MODULES 3 AND 4 - EACH MODULE WILL BE DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE AT THE CDN DIV TCS.

4.	ALL OCCUPATIONS CURRENTLY REQUIRED TO ATTEND PLQ-L IAW REF E, AND AS EXPANDED BELOW, WILL BE REQUIRED TO ATTEND PLQ-A. SPECIFICALLY: 
A.	ALL ARMY MANAGED OCCUPATIONS (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF INFMN): (1) CRMN (2) ARTYMN (3) CBT ENGR (4) GEO TECH (5) ACISS (6) EO TECH L (7) MAT TECH (8) VEH TECH (9) WPN TECH L 
B.	THE FOLLOWING NON-ARMY MANAGED OCCUPATIONS: (1) MP (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (2) POST CLK (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (3) COMM RSCH (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (4) INT OP (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (5) CBRN OP (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (6) MET TECH (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (7) MSE OP (ARMY DEU ONLY) (8) SUP TECH (ARMY DEU ONLY) (9) RMS CLK (ARMY DEU ONLY) (10) COOK (ARMY DEU ONLY) (11) AMMO TECH (ARMY DEU ONLY) (12) TFC TECH (ARMY DEU ONLY) (13) MUSCN (ARMY RESERVE ONLY)

5.	IT MUST BE NOTED THAT ALL TRADES IDENTIFIED ABOVE ALSO REQUIRE BMQ - L TRAINING AS A PRE-REQUISITE TO ATTENDING PLQ - A. SOME OF THE TRADES MENTIONED ABOVE WERE NOT INCLUDED IN REF E. 

6.	TRAINING DELIVERY. THE FOLLOWING PARAMETERS WILL APPLY TO THE DELIVERY OF THE PLQ-A: 
A.	MODULE 1 WILL BE DELIVERED IN A SYNCHRONOUS DISTANCE LEARNING FORMAT THROUGH THE DLN. MOD 1 SERIALS WILL BE LINKED TO SPECIFIC SERIALS FOR TRAINING ON MODS 2 - 4 AS IDENTIFIED ON THE ARMY NATIONAL TRAINING CALENDAR (NTC). TO CATER TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PRES, SPECIFIC SERIALS HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED FOR PART-TIME SYNCHRONOUS DELIVERY. 
B.	MOD 2 - 4 TRAINING FOR REG F MEMBERS MUST BE TAKEN IN ONE BLOCK IN A FULL-TIME FORMAT AT THE CDN DIV TCS. PRES MEMBERS CAN ATTEND THE REG/PRES SERIALS BASED ON THEIR AVAILABILITY 
C.	TO CATER TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PRES, (I) MOD 2 MAY BE DELIVERED IN A PART-TIME FORMAT AT THE LOCAL CBG SCHOOL OR JUST PRIOR TO MOD 3 AND 4 TRAINING AT THE CDN DIV TCS AND (II) MOD 3 AND 4 WILL BE ONLY DELIVERED IN A FULL-TIME FORMAT AT THE CDN DIV TCS AND ARE INTENDED TO BE DELIVERED CONSECUTIVELY WITH STUDENTS REMAINING FOR THE DURATION. HOWEVER, SERIALS SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED AS ARMY RES SERIALS CAN BE ATTENDED BY MODULE FOR PRES MEMBERS. 
D.	ALL MODS WILL BE MANAGED VIA THE ARMY NTC AND COURSE LOADED BY CTC HQ. 
E.	A COMMON SELECTING AGENCY WILL APPLY TO ALL MODULES OF THE PLQ-A: D MIL C FOR REG F AND LOCAL CDN DIV HQ FOR PRES. 
F.	STUDENTS WILL BE NOMINATED FOR THE PLQ-A COMPLETE BY THE SELECTING AGENCY. CTC HQ WILL LOAD AGAINST SPECIFIC SESSIONS BASED ON INFORMATION PROVIDED BY THE SELECTING AGENCY.

7.	TIMELINES: FOR THE REG F, MODS 2 - 4 TRAINING MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 1 YEAR (12 MONTHS) FOLLOWING COMPLETION OF MOD 1. 

8.	TIMELINES: FOR THE PRES USING THE MODULARIZED TRAINING SYSTEM: THE FOLLOWING TIMELINES MUST BE OBSERVED OR TRAINING WILL BE RESTARTED TO PREVENT SKILL FADE: 
A.	MOD 2 MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 12 MONTHS OF STARTING MOD 1, AND 
B.	MOD 4 MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 24 MONTHS OF COMPLETING MOD 1.

9.	TRANSITION: AT THIS TIME, VERY FEW MEMBERS REMAIN WHO ARE PARTIALLY TRAINED UNDER THE OLD PLQ-L. IN ORDER TO AVOID GAPS IN TRAINING AND SKILL FADE, PERS WHO HAVE ONLY COMPLETED PLQ-L MODULES 1-5 (OR ANY PORTION THEREOF) MUST RESTART AT MOD 1 AS THE ORIGINAL TRANSITION END DATE WAS 30 JUN 2014. ALL OTHER SITUATIONS MUST BE HANDLED THROUGH THE PLAR SYSTEM. 
10.	CA LEAD FOR THIS DIRECTION IS THE ARMY TRAINING AUTHORITY (ATA).  


I tried to get CANFORGEN 031/13 COMD CA 006/13 211813Z FEB 13 PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY (PLQ-A) from the iPhone app but, it just links to the 2015 CANFORGEN.


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## PuckChaser (30 Apr 2017)

In 2015, all Army managed MOSIDs needed to complete PLQ-A to be substansive. I don't believe the list of trades required to complete PLQ-A has changed in some time, evidenced by the OPs completion of SQ in 2013 (the same CANFORGEN outlined SQ and PLQ-A requirements for the MOSIDs).


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## Eye In The Sky (1 May 2017)

Here's my take after reading and considering what, IMO, are key dates and facts: 

- VOT to Army in 2011 (relinquishment of rank/pay and change of environments)



			
				ryanhd20 said:
			
		

> This is a portion of my message:
> 
> 3.  PROMOTED TO SUBSTANTIVE MCPL EFF DATE: 2 MAR 15 SEN DATE: 1 JAN 15 EPZ DATE: 1 JAN 17



- ref B to CANFORGEN 080/16 [the latest and greatest on C Army Jnr NCO requirements) , namely CANFORGEN 092/15 COMD CA 019/15 191700Z *MAY 15 *.  *Note, mbr was promoted Eff 02 Mar 15.  Therefore, IMO, CANFORGEN 092/15 would not be the reference for the C Army MCpl Substantive requirements.

- WRT to the OP, promoted Eff 02 Mar 2015, the rules for C Army Substantive MCpl_ should _be CANFORGEN 031/13 COMD CA 006/13 211813Z FEB 13 PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY (PLQ-A) 

If I were the OP, I'd be looking for a copy of that and seeing what it says before taking another step down the grievance route.  :2c:


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## PuckChaser (2 May 2017)

EITS, I think you're on the right track with the references. The issue here is that the member was given an incorrect promotion message, stating he was a substansive MCpl despite not having completed the full PLQ-A. The CA controls all training requirements, and I do not believe the changes in who has to complete PLQ-A has changed since the original message outlining CA managed trades. Since the OP has not yet entered the training system for their course, they would be subject to whatever is the newest direction from CCA on PLQ/AJLC.

There is also a CANFORGEN stating that there would be no further grandfathering of the PLQ-A, and anyone missing mods would have to redo from the beginning after a certain date. This is where my caution to the OP would be: best case you end up having to do just AJLC. If you push the issue, and someone connects the dots, you redo the whole thing. I'm not back to work until Monday, I'll get that CANFORGEN WRT grandfathering posted, as I believe its wholly relevant to this scenario. I had to look it up for a subordinate who had a similar circumstance.


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## ModlrMike (3 May 2017)

CANFORGEN 031/13 COMD CA 006/13 211813Z FEB 13 PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY (PLQ-A) 

I looked for this on the DWAN tonight to no avail. Perhaps the OP's unit kept hard copies...


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## Nfld Sapper (3 May 2017)

CANFORGEN 031/13 superseeded by:

CANFORGEN 092/15 COMD CA 019/15 191700Z MAY 15

PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY IMPLEMENTATION UPDATE

UNCLASSIFIED


REF: A.CANFORGEN 031/13 COMD CA 006/13 211813Z FEB 13 PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY (PLQ-A) 
 B. A-PD-055-002/PP-002 NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBER GENERAL SPECIFICATION NCMGS) DATED 9 FEB 11 
 C. A-PD-002-PLQ-PC-B01 QUALIFICATION STANDARD DP2 ARMY PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION DATED 19 MAY 11 
 D. A-PD-002-PLQ-PH-B01 TRAINING PLAN - DP2 ARMY PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION DATED 15 MAY 2012 
 E. CANFORGEN 101/08 CMP 040/08 031334Z JUN 08 COMMON DP1/DP2 TRAINING REQUIREMENTS FOR CONTEMPORARY CF LAND WARFARE 

1. THIS MESSAGE RESCINDS IN TOTALITY THE CANFORGEN AT REF A. 


2. BACKGROUND. IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE MOST RECENT REVIEW OF THE NCM PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT SYSTEM AND THE REVISED NCM GENERAL SPECIFICATION (NCMGS) AT REF B, CHANGES WERE MADE TO THE ARMY QUALIFICATION STANDARD AND TRAINING PLAN FOR PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - LAND IN 2012. THESE CHANGES HAVE RESULTED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF A FOUR MODULE SYSTEM WITH A NEW COURSE NAME: PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION - ARMY (PLQ-A). 


3. COURSE STRUCTURE. THE PLQ-A IS STRUCTURED AS FOLLOWS: 

a. MODULE 1 - MODULE DELIVERED VIA DISTANCE LEARNING (DL) BY 5 CDN DIV TRAINING CENTRE (TC) FOR ENGLISH SERIALS, AND 2 CDN DIV TC FOR FRENCH SERIALS. 


b. MODULE 2 - MODULE DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE (FULL- TIME FORMAT) EITHER AT THE CDN DIV TCS OR AT CBG SCHOOLS FOR THE PRIMARY RESERVE (PRES). 


c. MODULES 3 AND 4 - EACH MODULE WILL BE DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE AT THE CDN DIV TCS. 



4. ALL OCCUPATIONS CURRENTLY REQUIRED TO ATTEND PLQ-L IAW REF E, AND AS EXPANDED BELOW, WILL BE REQUIRED TO ATTEND PLQ-A. SPECIFICALLY: 

a. ALL ARMY MANAGED OCCUPATIONS (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF INFMN): (1) CRMN (2) ARTYMN (3) CBT ENGR (4) GEO TECH (5) ACISS (6) EO TECH L (7) MAT TECH (8) VEH TECH (9) WPN TECH L 


b. THE FOLLOWING NON-ARMY MANAGED OCCUPATIONS: (1) MP (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (2) POST CLK (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (3) COMM RSCH (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (4) INT OP (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (5) CBRN OP (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (6) MET TECH (ALL ENVIRONMENTS) (7) MSE OP (ARMY DEU ONLY) (8) SUP TECH (ARMY DEU ONLY) (9) RMS CLK (ARMY DEU ONLY) (10) COOK (ARMY DEU ONLY) (11) AMMO TECH (ARMY DEU ONLY) (12) TFC TECH (ARMY DEU ONLY) (13) MUSCN (ARMY RESERVE ONLY) 



5. IT MUST BE NOTED THAT ALL TRADES IDENTIFIED ABOVE ALSO REQUIRE BMQ - L TRAINING AS A PRE-REQUISITE TO ATTENDING PLQ - A. SOME OF THE TRADES MENTIONED ABOVE WERE NOT INCLUDED IN REF E. 


6. TRAINING DELIVERY. THE FOLLOWING PARAMETERS WILL APPLY TO THE DELIVERY OF THE PLQ-A: 

a. MODULE 1 WILL BE DELIVERED IN A SYNCHRONOUS DISTANCE LEARNING FORMAT THROUGH THE DLN. MOD 1 SERIALS WILL BE LINKED TO SPECIFIC SERIALS FOR TRAINING ON MODS 2 - 4 AS IDENTIFIED ON THE ARMY NATIONAL TRAINING CALENDAR (NTC). TO CATER TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PRES, SPECIFIC SERIALS HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED FOR PART-TIME SYNCHRONOUS DELIVERY. 


b. MOD 2 - 4 TRAINING FOR REG F MEMBERS MUST BE TAKEN IN ONE BLOCK IN A FULL-TIME FORMAT AT THE CDN DIV TCS. PRES MEMBERS CAN ATTEND THE REG/PRES SERIALS BASED ON THEIR AVAILABILITY 


c. TO CATER TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PRES, (I) MOD 2 MAY BE DELIVERED IN A PART-TIME FORMAT AT THE LOCAL CBG SCHOOL OR JUST PRIOR TO MOD 3 AND 4 TRAINING AT THE CDN DIV TCS AND (II) MOD 3 AND 4 WILL BE ONLY DELIVERED IN A FULL-TIME FORMAT AT THE CDN DIV TCS AND ARE INTENDED TO BE DELIVERED CONSECUTIVELY WITH STUDENTS REMAINING FOR THE DURATION. HOWEVER, SERIALS SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED AS ARMY RES SERIALS CAN BE ATTENDED BY MODULE FOR PRES MEMBERS. 


d. ALL MODS WILL BE MANAGED VIA THE ARMY NTC AND COURSE LOADED BY CTC HQ. 


e. A COMMON SELECTING AGENCY WILL APPLY TO ALL MODULES OF THE PLQ-A: D MIL C FOR REG F AND LOCAL CDN DIV HQ FOR PRES. 


f. STUDENTS WILL BE NOMINATED FOR THE PLQ-A COMPLETE BY THE SELECTING AGENCY. CTC HQ WILL LOAD AGAINST SPECIFIC SESSIONS BASED ON INFORMATION PROVIDED BY THE SELECTING AGENCY. 



7. TIMELINES: FOR THE REG F, MODS 2 - 4 TRAINING MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 1 YEAR (12 MONTHS) FOLLOWING COMPLETION OF MOD 1. 


8. TIMELINES: FOR THE PRES USING THE MODULARIZED TRAINING SYSTEM: THE FOLLOWING TIMELINES MUST BE OBSERVED OR TRAINING WILL BE RESTARTED TO PREVENT SKILL FADE: 

a. MOD 2 MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 12 MONTHS OF STARTING MOD 1, AND 


b. MOD 4 MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN 24 MONTHS OF COMPLETING MOD 1. 



9. TRANSITION: AT THIS TIME, VERY FEW MEMBERS REMAIN WHO ARE PARTIALLY TRAINED UNDER THE OLD PLQ-L. IN ORDER TO AVOID GAPS IN TRAINING AND SKILL FADE, PERS WHO HAVE ONLY COMPLETED PLQ-L MODULES 1-5 (OR ANY PORTION THEREOF) MUST RESTART AT MOD 1 AS THE ORIGINAL TRANSITION END DATE WAS 30 JUN 2014. ALL OTHER SITUATIONS MUST BE HANDLED THROUGH THE PLAR SYSTEM. 


10. CA LEAD FOR THIS DIRECTION IS THE ARMY TRAINING AUTHORITY (ATA). CADTC POC IS CH CA PD CSN 271-8417. ARMY INDIVIDUAL TRAINING AUTHORITY (AITA) POC IS CTC HQ G7 TRG DES (CA), CSN 432-3812. CTC G3 POC FOR COURSE LOADING AND SCHEDULING IS G3 COURSES 2-1, CSN 432-3393 OR CSN 432-2067.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 May 2017)

Ya, I already had posted that one above.  What the OP needs, IMO, is 031/13 but it looks like it was removed once superseded.  Might have to ask for the original thru the system.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 May 2017)

Just noticed that EITS  :facepalm:


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## PuckChaser (5 May 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Ya, I already had posted that one above.  What the OP needs, IMO, is 031/13 but it looks like it was removed once superseded.  Might have to ask for the original thru the system.



Don't you remember your own posts from 4 years ago?! http://army.ca/forums/threads/18969/post-1211044.html#msg1211044

Unless the OP is a MET TECH or PRes Army Musician, nothing has changed since 2013 and he was always required to have completed PLQ-L/PLQ-A or the new AJLC. With the new system, his CAF PLQ will cover mods 1-3, and he will only have to attend Mod 4 (which should have been done years ago IMHO). 

I highly doubt any grievance would be successful, and would caution again that just because you grieve something, doesn't stop you from losing your rank. You'd only get it back if you win. Are you willing to risk losing that appointment over a 4 week course? I know the pay raise is completely marginal, but that's something that will follow you around in your career.


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## ModlrMike (5 May 2017)

Now that I've seen the 2013 message, better that the OP gets loaded on the course and "grey man's" his way through it.


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## ryanhd20 (5 May 2017)

K


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## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Don't you remember your own posts from 4 years ago?! http://army.ca/forums/threads/18969/post-1211044.html#msg1211044



No?


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