# Chart or App explaining degree to entry position



## armyca08 (8 Oct 2013)

Hi,

I'm wondering if there is a chart or other page which has a cross listing of applicable degree to entry position. I know that each entry position page does reference loosely to these things but I am wondering if there is a consolidated reference point.


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## The_Falcon (8 Oct 2013)

army08 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I'm wondering if there is a chart or other page which has a cross listing of applicable degree to entry position. I know that each entry position page does reference loosely to these things but I am wondering if there is a consolidated reference point.



For those in recruiting (or have access to the DWAN), yes.  For those who don't, no.


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## armyca08 (8 Oct 2013)

Army.ca Forums » The Recruiting Office » Recruiting

I'm guessing DWAN is an internal network. eg. Defence Wide Area Network.

Is there a logical reason that bit of info is internalized? 

Is this something you can ask for from a recruiter to be emailed to you? i.e. not a classified document requiring a security clearance


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## George Wallace (8 Oct 2013)

Yes.  You can ask all those questions at the CFRC.  Yes, they have a list of preferred Degrees.  Yes, one has to have some knowledge, initiative and leadership potential to apply to become an officer in the CAF.  Perhaps you should start developing some of those characteristics if you intend to continue along this path.


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## MJP (8 Oct 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> For those in recruiting (or have access to the DWAN), yes.  For those who don't, no.





			
				army08 said:
			
		

> Is there a logical reason that bit of info is internalized?



I wonder the rationale as well.  It makes sense that it is open info as it allows for folks to plan for their future.  Kinda sucks to do a degree and find out it means SFA for the trade you want.


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## armyca08 (8 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yes.  You can ask all those questions at the CFRC.  Yes, they have a list of preferred Degrees.  Yes, one has to have some knowledge, initiative and leadership potential to apply to become an officer in the CAF.  Perhaps you should start developing some of those characteristics if you intend to continue along this path.



I agree 100%. You want to get accurate information you go to the best. 

(Local recruiting contact is out of office, and it is after hours as far as I understand)

I have yet to see the chart online, and I don't feel like watching all the videos, atm. 

If answering questions are a hardship for you I can only imagine what it is like for the people that do it on the clock.

I've gone and applied for a technical program as my degree is an arts degree, and not particularly relevant to the technology trades, such as ASIS, Mechanical and Engineering related, which is where my hobbies and interests are at in part. 

It would make it easier for me to pick additional training for in demand trades if the information was readily available. 

Ah, as an offshoot on this one.. I am wondering if all the degrees are University based degrees, or if College programs for instance a program like http://www.confederationc.on.ca/electricaleng  would have any usefulness. Or if having multiple degrees such as a University B.A. and a trades based program such as the electrical engineering in a college program would be applicable to things like ASIS, and Mechanical and Electrical Engineer.

I'm expecting ask a recruiter, but I'm asking someone regardless. I'm actively trying to position to doing this, this means starting on the timeline for any required skills and training gaps.

I'm really looking at this as actively engaging, however, as indicated I hit an information gap for making a strong assessment of due course. I however did act in absence of that information, as I won't be communicating with CFRC for the next couple days, but academic programs have launched their winter term program entries, they are done first come first entry, and the application priority phase closes in November, with selections possible any time after the application gets sent off. I ended up applying for the program which would be applicable in either reserve or regular force, as I am of the impression my BA and hobbies will not be sufficient to make me eligible for a DEO, even though I am open to NCM also, or RTOP. I've gone and applied for what I think may be sufficient and what academic program is available.

None the less, information can be better than no information and I would have had no timely information if it didn't come from here, as I know of no other source of information that may have relevance.

I have an arts degree in History, and have the option of continuing studies in that field in the winter, but I am also interested in technical trades either on reserve or reg force, so have started to pursue technical trades accreditation. I've gone and selected the electrical engineering and an aircraft trade (even though I'm not too interested in aircraft maintenance), it still seems applicable to the Mechanical and Electrical field. 

At this point I am going to persue Reserve Force while doing the college program, with intention of DEO, unless ROTP is an option. 

None the less, CFRC doesn't seem to really want to discus much, and it seems local is more than wiling to chat about things, but they are not available, and I'm out of country until the 17th.  Not too concerned about my OPSEC, as a prospect. None the less any info or URLs to more info on this is welcome. And thankyou for taking the time to read.


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## Teen_Cadet (8 Oct 2013)

http://www.kingsown.ca/Old%20Site/ROTP%20Quest%20Part%201_en.pdf I found this link to be the closest thing to what you are asking for. I found this while pondering the same question.


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## armyca08 (8 Oct 2013)

Teen_Cadet said:
			
		

> http://www.kingsown.ca/Old%20Site/ROTP%20Quest%20Part%201_en.pdf I found this link to be the closest thing to what you are asking for. I found this while pondering the same question.



thanks.


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## DAA (9 Oct 2013)

Teen_Cadet said:
			
		

> http://www.kingsown.ca/Old%20Site/ROTP%20Quest%20Part%201_en.pdf
> 
> I found this link to be the closest thing to what you are asking for. I found this while pondering the same question.



Don't waste your time looking at this link.  The document is dated circa "2005", so the information is now *8 years old * and very out of date!

The MOS ID Entry Standards are internal to DND/CF and are subject to change just like any other documents.  Your CFRC should be able to provide the most current information regarding acceptable education standards, you just need to ask them.


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## Teager (9 Oct 2013)

Army08 are you planning on going regs or res? You seem to be bouncing between the two. If you plan on going into the res world you will need to visit the unit you plan on joining to see if they are hiring and what trades they have available. The trades you have mentioned may not be the trades at the unit closest to you. A lot of the programs like ROTP do not apply to reserves. IMO you should first figure out if you want to go regs or res you cannot apply for both.


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## The_Falcon (9 Oct 2013)

MJP said:
			
		

> I wonder the rationale as well.  It makes sense that it is open info as it allows for folks to plan for their future.  Kinda sucks to do a degree and find out it means SFA for the trade you want.





			
				DAA said:
			
		

> The MOS ID Entry Standards are internal to DND/CF and are subject to change just like any other documents.  Your CFRC should be able to provide the most current information regarding acceptable education standards, you just need to ask them.



This.  The requirements and matrixes are updated all the time, given how easily confused, people seem to get over the information that IS available (despite it all being rather simple and straight forward), putting even more information out there would probably cause the army.ca servers to melt, from people coming here (vice a CFRC) for clarification.


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## MJP (9 Oct 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> This.  The requirements and matrixes are updated all the time, given how easily confused, people seem to get over the information that IS available (despite it all being rather simple and straight forward), putting even more information out there would probably cause the army.ca servers to melt, from people coming here (vice a CFRC) for clarification.



If only there was a way to portray this easily updated document in electronic form on let's say on a website to portray information to the masses....if only. 

I get your reasoning but it is IMHO silly to not put this kind of info out there IF only to act as a guide for people.  Exact degree requirements can always be had from CFRC pers with the matrix as a guide.


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## DAA (9 Oct 2013)

MJP said:
			
		

> If only there was a way to portray this easily updated document in electronic form on let's say on a website to portray information to the masses....if only.
> 
> I get your reasoning but it is IMHO silly to not put this kind of info out there IF only to act as a guide for people.  Exact degree requirements can always be had from CFRC pers with the matrix as a guide.



I couldn't agree more and wish this information was readily available on the website, even if it came with some sort of "disclaimer".


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## The_Falcon (9 Oct 2013)

MJP said:
			
		

> If only there was a way to portray this easily updated document in electronic form on let's say on a website to portray information to the masses....if only.
> 
> I get your reasoning but it is IMHO silly to not put this kind of info out there IF only to act as a guide for people.  Exact degree requirements can always be had from CFRC pers with the matrix as a guide.



But that would require employing some to actually keep it updated.  As it is (at least when I still had access) information on the DWAN is constantly being re-organized and shuffled around.  At one point when I was at CFRC Toronto, there were like 3 or 4 different Matrices floating around on the DWAN, because of all that shuffling. 

Beyond that though, I don't see why anyone on the outside would really need that information.  The basic information on the forces.ca website suffices for the majority of folks.  If it doesn't suffice, well that is what recruiters are employed for.  Also can you name any other organization public or private that puts that information out there?  There is a thing called information overload.


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## MJP (9 Oct 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> But that would require employing some to actually keep it updated.  As it is (at least when I still had access) information on the DWAN is constantly being re-organized and shuffled around.  At one point when I was at CFRC Toronto, there were like 3 or 4 different Matrices floating around on the DWAN, because of all that shuffling.
> 
> Beyond that though, I don't see why anyone on the outside would really need that information.  The basic information on the forces.ca website suffices for the majority of folks.  If it doesn't suffice, well that is what recruiters are employed for.  Also can you name any other organization public or private that puts that information out there?  There is a thing called information overload.



I am tracking the difficulties in keeping the list exact.  We like to change thing for the sake of changing things, but a general list much like the scanned list contained in CFAO 9-12 would be a great guideline for folks to use as a guide.  I also don't think that for a great number of trades the acceptable degrees change a great deal.  Pretty sure Engineer types need an engineer type degree and the pilot and infantry trades will accept anyone    (that is a joke in case someone misses the smiley).  Will some change yup, are they changed so often and so drastically that a guide would be obsolete in a few weeks, I don't think so.

We put tons of information from our organization in the public domain (funny enough the CFAOs are not viewable by the public anymore).  I hardly think that a guide to acceptable degrees by MOC is terribly onerous nor will it overload recruit Billy's brain.  To me if I was a prospective DEO or ROTP applicant I would love to see if in general my degree or degree path will allow me to be something in the forces without having to go to the CFRC.  It also shows a bit of planning and foresight on the applicants behalf if they choose to join that they know what they generally can and can't do in terms of jobs.


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## DAA (9 Oct 2013)

It would be nice to put that information out there but keeping it current is a whole other bag of worms.  First off, Recruiting does not control nor maintain the www.forces.ca website.  That site is owned and maintained, I think, by DHRIM and or D Marketing.  So first, the education standards for a specific occupation would have to be verified and approved, then sent to the Translation Bureau for translating for "web publishing", then returned to Recruiting and finally passed to Ottawa for inclusion on the website.  Total time to make a change, I would guess somewhere in the area of 2-4 months to go from flash to bang for an item such as this.

So if the educational requirements were out there, then obviously, they would be subject to individual interpretation at any point in time and sometimes, it's just not so simple.

Now from a purely "marketing" perspective........

The objective of the website is not just to provide information but to get people interested in a career with the CF, to the point where they actually "want" to speak with a recruiter and or visit their local recruiting centre.  So if you want to be an engineer but you have a science degree and the website leads you to believe that your science degree is not acceptable, then you have just lost interest in the CF.  But if you actually speak with a recruiter and or actually visit your local recruiting centre, science degree in hand, ask about your chances of becoming an engineer, they may tell you that your science degree is not acceptable but then they will normally say "Have you ever thought about becoming..............?"

Having so many occupations to choose from can be mind numbing and having to sift through all the information, even worse.


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## armyca08 (9 Oct 2013)

Teager said:
			
		

> Army08 are you planning on going regs or res? You seem to be bouncing between the two. If you plan on going into the res world you will need to visit the unit you plan on joining to see if they are hiring and what trades they have available. The trades you have mentioned may not be the trades at the unit closest to you. A lot of the programs like ROTP do not apply to reserves. IMO you should first figure out if you want to go regs or res you cannot apply for both.



I'm hoping to pass the medical.    I am unlimited I have made plans for both and neither. I solicited interest in res locally, I won't be back in country and the point man for intake is out of office until a couple days before I'm due back in. I've applied online for regforce. I am waiting on my transcripts to be sent, but have requested electronic copies so I can forward them to the CFRC, although I am a little confused as I had the impression I need to send them within a time frame, but also have read I should not send them until they have requested them. I'm left with the impression that based on the application itself I need to get an initial approval for the application to enter the documentation provision phase. None the less I've sent off my birth certificate by fax, and will do the same for my transcripts in absence of a response from the CFRC. 

Before heading out to Mexico I ran into someone who was applying for reg force. He basically went over where they were at with things, and the timeframe. He seemed to indicate that doing a reserve application in absence of regforce was more or less what he was suggested. Assuming, and i know this is guesswork, that I might be in the same boat if I were to apply I've proceeded locally and with the CFRC as both are on the table for myself. 
My situation is a little odd as I live seasonally a 300 kms from the nearest detachment as, not to completely destroy any remaining OPSEC, I'm in the north of Ontario. However, I was due to be doing a degree in OK here we go, Thunder Bay, but this has changed slightly due to a twist of fate. Thus, being a recent graduate from my Undergrad studies, I would have been free and looking for work out of country based on my accreditation. However, I have business in Thunder Bay that may drag on at least a few months. This would have been my first winter in Northern Ontario, as I only have spent from around April to September at my home in the North. I would have been in Thunder Bay, and now due to the change of circumstances I am still likely to be in Thunder Bay. To complicate this further, since I was in Thunder Bay, I've opted to study, as I have been a student forever, but in a different technical field than my degree, but within line of my hobbies and interests. I have not yet been admitted to the program and won't find out until I think November, but I've gone off and applied as I in visioned myself doing reserve and the program and the other activity that is keeping me local to Thunder Bay. All or none of them could happen but any one thing individually would guide my time over the winter. The program is a 3+ year program. So in that context I am most preparing for reserve BUT this is based on there being a demand, as I have been reading that there is big downturn in force size expected as budget cuts are looming, it would make sense that some people cut from regforce, although not great in number could potentially saturate the reserve, but that is guesswork.


Now to further this however, I have finished my primary degree and am technically looking for a career. My hobbies largely fall in line with the military, in the trades I've applied for they are essentially engineering trades. Based upon my accreditation I would expect there to be a need for ROTP or at least some coursework - now with the application I've put off to the Electrical Engineering program, I'm hoping that will potentially be sufficient along with my degree. Based on what I have seen I am expecting any regforce application to take many months to complete. I am also highly suspicious that I would get a secret clearance. When I volunteered last time I didn't even consider officer as I didn't want to worry about being responsible for other people, I also lacked a degree. I'm more open minded to it now, but feel technology will be playing an essential role more progressively as time progresses, so I feel that I will be better able to contribute by improving my technical capacities, they are also in demand trades, so it is a mutually beneficial selection. I have however contacted the CFRC and asked if I can just be marked down as open to any trade rather than limiting myself to only 3 trades. 
When I was still in school I still felt like I had a future ahead of me, I was still young, and while I could position myself to help serve and protect society in volunteering for the reserves, I really don't feel the same way now, I don't feel young. Now it is more about having some sort of purpose, getting out of the ongoing chaos of being completely free to do nothing but pursue personal interests and doing so on an incredibly tight budget. I feel an impending sense that the next decade or two is critical in the future of life on the planet, as technology and the environment are nearing a climax point, that is nearing a point of no return. As a hobbiest prepper and survivalist, and someone whose leisure activity is exercise and technology, that everything really culminates that yes, entry into a technological trade is something that would be living my life and contributing to society as opposed to being merely selfish self interest. So at the end of all these words, it is basically both. I don't want to cut my hair though, nor shave, except maybe a bit for the gas mask fitting, I will though. 

None the less I think I am capable and someone who will be dedicated, I have a very good work ethic and I put my heart, often too much, into doing my job when I have responsibilities, but by the book. 

I have the feeling that entry into the reserves while doing skills upgrading, in absence of clearance for the applicable CF school would be more likely to occur, simply because I do not have accreditation in fields, that is I'm not a P.Eng, I have some experience, but is an Advanced Amateur Radio Operator's Certificate going to have any real weight compared to someone with a 2 year College Diploma in Electronics. Sure I've read and had a slight intorduction to Raspberry Pi and Adruino but will that hold any weight compared to someone with a term of ECE studies?  As you can see, I am interested in regular force trades that my accreditation may not fully support, in that sense they would require ROTP quite possibly and I would be in reserve force anyway while doing ROTP, must read more on that though.  I think for the CF they may be more interested in me paying for my own education while being a member of the reserve, that is training in a field that is related such as ASIS which is OPEN in Thunder Bay, not 100% sure on that but there are a few technical trades that are open. After completing my program, which would have an option of doing a 4th year to lead  to convocation with a University degree as opposed to only a 3 year Advanced College Diploma. Bear in mind I am in my 30's. Doing 4 additional years of post secondary education would make me quite old, imo. However in getting in 3 or 4 years of time reserve, which may or may not be interrupted due to global events, this would hopefully still have me capable of gaining experience in the Forces before entering regular forces, which by that time it should be very clear if I will still be able to contribute. 

So in a nutshell, both and neither. In the short term, not to get ahead of myself, I have a medical get signed off on. I have three different reasons for a medical right now if including the CF. If there is need in the CF I can fill I would enter in regforce in good faith. I am not yet convinced I am applicable to DEO with an Arts Degree. None the less I feel that whatever the outcome I've put in one more hand up to contribute. I have no reservation in my mind that it will not be a beneficial experience, aside from the dangers, having talked to vets who were permanently injured on deployment. If there is a shortage of volunteers for trades, I'm willing to be the body that can fill those shoes, but at the same time, I am highly skeptical with restructuring of the CF that that really is the case, I would expect retraining. It is worrysome that there would be such a high attrition rate dropping out of the forces, especially as the potential for reduced deployment due to budgetary constraints seems in the near term most likely. 

 The local is out of office I'll be checking their availability next week when they are in again. I'm out of country currently so chances are any in person will not happen for another two weeks. I am hopefully my transcript will arrive and CFRC can proceed with the regforce stuff, but if I understand I should expect to wait atleast 3 weeks for movement on that. I also don't have access to my mail until the end of October.   

I will very much not be local until my program starts in January if it does. However, my place is seasonal, and doing my extreme cold weather training at my place will likely get old by December. 

The open and closed trades are posted on-line I've looked at them. I've tried to communicate both to the CFRC and local that if there is a need I'm open to fill it I'm not adverse really. I see it more as filling a role on a team than getting the position I want. I just think technical trades will have the most room for personal development over the long term.


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## PMedMoe (9 Oct 2013)

As far as I know, you can't have an application in to both the Res and the Reg Force.

Nor can you apply for "any trade".


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## DAA (9 Oct 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> As far as I know, you can't have an application in to both the Res and the Reg Force.
> 
> Nor can you apply for "any trade".



Correct on both accounts!  However, given the current climate, there is nothing to stop a Reserve Unit Recruiter from preparing an applicant file on site, in the event that the Reg F application fails to produce any results, in which case the applicant just needs to tell their supporting CFRC that "I want to change my application to Reserve Force, instead of Regular Force".  Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it but it is entirely up to the respective Reserve unit as to how much they want to spin their wheels.

Other than that, WOW!  Far too much information than I cared to read.  While I truly would like to help, too much for me to absorb, so I really can't respond to that.  Other than to say, follow the instructions provided and good luck!


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## The_Falcon (9 Oct 2013)

MJP said:
			
		

> I am tracking the difficulties in keeping the list exact.  We like to change thing for the sake of changing things, but a general list much like the scanned list contained in CFAO 9-12 would be a great guideline for folks to use as a guide.  I also don't think that for a great number of trades the acceptable degrees change a great deal.  Pretty sure Engineer types need an engineer type degree and the pilot and infantry trades will accept anyone    (that is a joke in case someone misses the smiley).  Will some change yup, are they changed so often and so drastically that a guide would be obsolete in a few weeks, I don't think so.



It's not just degrees/diplomas that change and are listed on the matrix, in some cases (particular college/NCM occupations) individual institutions are listed as well.  And yes things do change quite a bit, what with various programs modifying/updating their curriculum regularly, as well as programs gaining or losing accreditation, which can effect whether or not the CAF accepts it.  Combine that with what DAA mentioned, and you can see the issues that can arise, especially if a program/school gets delisted.  Next thing you know you have quite a large number of applicants getting pissed because their credential has been invalid for months, but the forces.ca website hasn't been updated to reflect that, and that is where they were getting their information from.


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