# Communicator Research



## Sneaky147 (22 Jun 2006)

Hey all,

If anyone has any questions about becoming a Communicator Research Operator, let me know.  I've been one for 3 years, and I find there are many, many misconceptions about this trade.  It's a really great trade and I enjoy it a lot.  I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has about it.

Cheers


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## Nemo888 (22 Jun 2006)

Is it true that you all go crazy from the weird radio waves?  >

291ers 4 eva


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## Inspir (22 Jun 2006)

Do you work in partnership with the CSE?


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## Sneaky147 (22 Jun 2006)

No, I promise that you won't go all crazy from wierd radio waves.


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## Sneaky147 (22 Jun 2006)

We do work in partnership with the CSE in some ways I guess, it would really depend on who you asked as to what answer you got.  It's not uncommon for 291ers to retire and you end up seeing them there. 

Good question though...


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## Inspir (22 Jun 2006)

Is there ample opportunities for deployments overseas?


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## Sneaky147 (22 Jun 2006)

Yes there definitely are.  Right now I have quite a few friends in Afghanistan, and several other areas in theatre.  I also have friends who were in Haiti and Sudan.


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## CDN Zipperhead (22 Jun 2006)

Know anyone by the name Bowen? Shes going to the 'stan soon.


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## Sneaky147 (22 Jun 2006)

Yeah, I think so, she's training in my section.  Small world.


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## CDN Zipperhead (22 Jun 2006)

Sneaky147 said:
			
		

> Yeah, I think so, she's training in my section.  Small world.



Say Hi for me shes my little sister (emphasis on little).


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## Inspir (22 Jun 2006)

In your first post you mentioned that there are many misconceptions about this trade. What misconceptions would you be referring to?


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## Sneaky147 (22 Jun 2006)

Mostly that we don't deploy, we sit and copy morse code all day, and that we go up to Alert all the time, among others.  Truth be told, we deploy a lot (I'm TOLD we're the 2nd most deployed trade per capita in the forces right now), we do very, very little morse code these days (it's been phased out as a trade requirement), and we don't go to Alert at all anymore.


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## Inspir (22 Jun 2006)

In your opinion, what skills and attributes are required to be a successfull communicator research operator?


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## navymich (22 Jun 2006)

Sneaky147 said:
			
		

> and we're using some very sexy kit to do it.



Such as...?  Or as much detail as you can talk about with it.

The recruiting site still has morse code on it.  Has it been officially phased out yet?  And I assume by that speed that it was by sound?  As well, it mentions "signals intelligence math".  WTF ???  Obviously more to it then subtracting 1.8 to get the window frequency. LOL

*edited to add more questions.


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Jun 2006)

What clearance level do you have to have minimum?  I have looked at your trade some, currently in the process of CTing to 226 but, I have looked at yours as well.  Just curious, I have a Lev II and would probably have to go to atleast Lev III or higher I bet.

Many 291'ers posted to Air Force bases??


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## Sneaky147 (22 Jun 2006)

Inspir said:
			
		

> In your opinion, what skills and attributes are required to be a successfull communicator research operator?



A good 291er, in my opinion should have a good head for concepts lending themselves to linear thinking.  There is a lot of analysis in the job, and I think it's extremely important to be able to think logically (i.e. - "If I do this, than THIS should happen.  If it doesn't, why?)  I think the most valuable trait a good 291er has is inherent curiosity.  Just having the drive to stick your nose into something and figure out who's talking or what's going on would carry somone a long way in this trade.  Having a drive to know makes the learning easy...

Also, a good sense of humor is great.  Many of us are shifty's and being able to crack a joke makes a midnight shift a lot easier!  I don't think I've met smarter funnier people anywhere like in the 291er trade.  You get everybody...


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## Sneaky147 (23 Jun 2006)

navymich said:
			
		

> Such as...?  Or as much detail as you can talk about with it.
> 
> The recruiting site still has morse code on it.  Has it been officially phased out yet?  And I assume by that speed that it was by sound?  As well, it mentions "signals intelligence math".  WTF ???  Obviously more to it then subtracting 1.8 to get the window frequency. LOL
> 
> *edited to add more questions.



Unfortunately, most of the systems are classified.  I'd really be hesitant posting something on the net about it.  Sorry.

Morse code is still taught in the school, but I understand that now it's not something they will normally fail you on.  It used to be a course requirement to receive 16wpm by sound.  Taught yes, required no.  Bear in mind that if someone is a thorn in their side, that might be their ace to turf them.  

Signals intelligence math is a math package that is largely self-taught right at the very beginning of training.  It consists of very basic math (fractions, exponents) to mid-level algebra, geometry, and logarithms.  It's not that bad, I know people who struggle with math and they all pass it.  It serves 2 purposes.  One, to weed out those who just aren't going to hack the analytical aspect of training, and two, when learning radio theory and what a signal is the mathematical component of it is beneficial.  If you aren't a math geek, don't worry, instructors do their best to make sure training aids and help are available.  Plus, most classes have a few guys who can do math in their sleep.


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## navymich (23 Jun 2006)

Sneaky147 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, most of the systems are classified.  I'd really be hesitant posting something on the net about it.  Sorry.



Figured as much, but thank you for the rest of the information.  Sounds like a great trade, I'm just not big on the IT stuff, and that's one of the reasons I'm CTing out of my current trade.


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## Sneaky147 (23 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> What clearance level do you have to have minimum?  I have looked at your trade some, currently in the process of CTing to 226 but, I have looked at yours as well.  Just curious, I have a Lev II and would probably have to go to atleast Lev III or higher I bet.
> 
> Many 291'ers posted to Air Force bases??
> 
> ...


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Jun 2006)

My other question is how many people wash out or tap out during the MOC course??  Is there lots of people that don't like it or can't do it??


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## Sneaky147 (23 Jun 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> My other question is how many people wash out or tap out during the MOC course??  Is there lots of people that don't like it or can't do it??



I know one guy who washed out, good guy, but he just really didn't have a head for it.  The rest of us did fine.  It's really a multi-faceted trade, if you want to sit in front of a computer you're good to go.  OR... if you love the field there are lots of possibilities as well.  Some of subject matter is a little meaty, but it's not hard hard.  The cool thing is the instructors are all really good, they can dumb things down a whole lot.  The course is very passable.


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## _cl_ (24 Jun 2006)

Sneaky147;

I’ve got a few questions kicking around that I’d love to have answered.

I’m currently sitting around waiting in PRETC until my course begins. What would you best suggest for me to study for preparation? 

Also

I’m am exclusive to the English language and I want to go to language school once the opportunity presents itself. Do you think it would be better for my career to maybe put my attention towards maybe learning a foreign language opposed to French.

Thanks for you’re time




cl


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## Sneaky147 (24 Jun 2006)

_cl_ said:
			
		

> Sneaky147;
> 
> I’ve got a few questions kicking around that I’d love to have answered.
> 
> ...



Hey, 

Ahhh, PRETC... I did 9 months there myself... me heart goes out to you dude...

Math and morse code... here's why.

They should be giving out your math packs soon if they haven't already.  Make sure you get it down.  You'll need at least an 80% to stay in the trade.  Don't panic, the math isn't that hard... it just might need more attention from some than others.  If you don't get an 80% they'll givce you one retest, mess than and you're out of the trade.  Take it seriously.  WO Jackson (I think he's still there) has the math packs.  Get one from him.  If he doesn't know what you're talking about, let me know and I'll see if I can get you one.  

Second, Morse Code.  It is not a trade requirement anymore.  That means they teach it at the school but they can't kick you out for not knowing it anymore.  All the better reason to know it.  It's a huge pain in the ass... I'm talking an island-sized pain in the ass, but if you can get a headstart you'll be golden.  I'm serious, it WILL pay off.  Plus, you'll have a better chance of getting a good position sooner if you can prove you can work the morse bay.  There's still a good chance you'll end up there.  I was good at the morse bay and I got an awesome position in a different section very early.  

Don't worry about the language thing.  English is the working laguage of the trade, and not knowing French isn't going to hurt you in the short term.  Don't listen to what anyone at PRETC says, they don't know a thing about the trade.  At least no one who was there when I was.  If you want a language course there are plenty of resources after you get on station to get one done.  

How long have you been in Borden, and when are you due to start your 3's?  Another suggestion, MAKE SURE YOUR CLEARANCE PAPERS ARE IN ORDER.  It could mean having your clearance when you get to Kingston, or waiting 2 years.  Make sure it's done correctly.  

I'd be happy to help you with anything you need help with.  Any questions at all, just email me and I'll help you if I can.  

Take it ez and welcome to the trade...


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## sleepy (27 Jun 2006)

sneaky147,

I've been accepted as a Comm Rsch Op. I leave on the 3rd of July for BMQ at Saint Jean and 13 weeks later or so I start MOC training in Kingston. I was approved very quickly and rushed into a 'surge' BMQ course. In the last month I've been sworn in and completed my Security Clearance Form. It checks out at CFRC which brings me to my questions; Is my Lvl III complete? Does it have to be complete before Kingston? How long on avg. does it take to clear? Am I mothballed after BMQ or MOC until it does before my posting upon completion? 

Thanks


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## Sneaky147 (28 Jun 2006)

Hey Sleepy,

     It takes a really long time, unfortunately, to get your lvl III.  I hate to be the one who breaks it to you, but you're looking at least a year.  That's just the time it takes right now to get a lvl III.  You can start your QL3 (MOC training) without your lvl III, but you need it to start Phase 2 of your QL3's.  Don't worry, they'll keep you busy until then.  Just focus on your BMQ.  Until then, if you have any questions, just let me know.


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## dk (28 Jun 2006)

I definitely agree with Sneaky147. Study the Math and Morse code while at PRETC.

As far as failing out of the Phase one, it is mostly handled based on the individual. If you have the drive and are putting in the effort, then they'll give you a chance to improve where you're having trouble, ie. math.

The course is now approx 53 training days for phase One. Three weeks of math. (STUDY THE PACKAGE if you're not too comfortable with the subjects in it)
and the rest is typing and Morse and a few days of General Communication (Unclassified version). We're the 2nd class going through this shortened time frame. 
The new Morse code standard is 10 WPM. and typing is 21wpm. 

And try and learn your Morse alphabet from those flash crads they give you at PRETC. It'll REALLY help!


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## radop215 (28 Jun 2006)

It takes a really long time, unfortunately, to get your lvl III.  I hate to be the one who breaks it to you, but you're looking at least a year.  That's just the time it takes right now to get a lvl III.

Unfortunately, youre right.  A couple of years back, it was decided that the Sig Op trade only needed Secret when they left their 3's.  When they got to their units and tried to start playing with TCCCS, a large majority required Top Secret.  This created a  huge back log in getting the clearances completed on time.  Even for an update it takes a crazy amount of time.  My last update is still processing and im at 4 months in waiting.  Most trades understand the backlog and shouldnt hold you back on any courses, provided the paperwork is in.


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## Nemo888 (28 Jun 2006)

Sneaky147 said:
			
		

> No, I promise that you won't all go crazy from weird radio waves.



So just some? I want a percentage.

I have never seen any 291 below Cpl deployed, are they deploying Pte's now too? So with PAT, clearances, promotion etc wouldn't it be a few years at least till you go overseas?


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## sleepy (28 Jun 2006)

I appreciate the info gentlemen. If Phase One is 53 days and I need Lvl III for Phase two that must explain the 45 week training period in Kingston after BMQ. I can stand to languish in Kingston. Got a thing for sailing and I look forward to the math and I learned morse code in high school.

Thanks again.


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## 291er (29 Jun 2006)

To echo Sneaky's comments, this trade rules....I'm getting ready to deploy right now as a 29 weiner...should be fun.
Here's some good advice though:
- Don't come off your QL3 expecting to deploy right away, get your QL5 done, then volunteer.  We're not in the habit of deploying non 5's qualified folks unless we have to.  It happened in the past because the QL5 package was only recently offered.  
- Don't believe everything you hear about the trade and Leitrim....develop your own opinions.
- Though we are called secret squirrels, don't go around thinking that we're James Bonds....we do an important job for the CF and you should'nt expect credit for it, as most of the public will never know what we do.

My two cents


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## dk (29 Jun 2006)

dk said:
			
		

> The new Morse code standard is 10 WPM. and typing is 21wpm.



Sorry, I made a mistake, typing is 20 WPM.


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## Temoid (29 Jun 2006)

The recruiter told me that this trade would be a good choice since I know 5 languages. Was he right or are languages merely a minor part of the job?


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## Sneaky147 (29 Jun 2006)

Temoid said:
			
		

> The recruiter told me that this trade would be a good choice since I know 5 languages. Was he right or are languages merely a minor part of the job?



If you know 5 languages then this may very well be the trade for you.  I know some people who have been given some very nice taskings because they knew a few languages.  The biggest thing I'd remember is that being multi-lingual may open a few doors for you, but it doesn't entitle you to anything.  I've seen a few people attract lots of unecessary attention to themselves because they figured they'd just go be a linguist and skip all the entry jobs that privates get.  For sure let people know that you have linguistic abilities, but do your job.  

I'd consider this trade, it may really give you a chance to do your thing.  I know quite a few linguists, and they're all good to hang with.  If you have any questions, fire away, I'd be happy to help you.


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## Inspir (29 Jun 2006)

What do you think about the new Communicator Research Operator recruiting video:
http://64.254.158.112/videos/high/291_en.wmv

Gives the trade justice?


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## Sneaky147 (29 Jun 2006)

Inspir said:
			
		

> What do you think about the new Communicator Research Operator recruiting video:
> http://64.254.158.112/videos/high/291_en.wmv
> 
> Gives the trade justice?



Hard to say.  It's definitely not BAD... much much better than the last one.  Problem is that the only thing that has any meat to it in the video is that it IS a real hush-hush trade.  If you like figuring stuff out, and doing stuff that 99% of people never get to do, than I'd give this trade an honest shot.  

I look at it like this...

I asked myself "Do I want to look back and think that I passed up the chance to do top-secret work for the military in a secure facility?  Or do I want to look back glad that I it?"  

After that it was easy.  I'm very glad I did.

How many people are working at Wal-Mart making $7.00/hr who would kill to do this kind of work?

Any clearer?


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## techie (29 Jun 2006)

as an LCIS, ill be repairing that equipment that the Comm. Researchers use, correct?


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## George Wallace (30 Jun 2006)

Maybe.....Maybe not.  They sometimes have custom built stuff that you would not be qualified to tinker with.


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## Sneaky147 (30 Jun 2006)

techie said:
			
		

> as an LCIS, ill be repairing that equipment that the Comm. Researchers use, correct?



It's possible, I don't really know for sure.  I haven't met any LCIS techs around the station.  Lots of other techs.  But that doesn't mean they aren't there... LCIS is still a really good trade whether you fix our stuff or not, if you're an LCIS Tech, good on 'ya!


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## OLD F of S (30 Jun 2006)

I was a tech in comm research for over twenty years and yes we fix most of the equipment. You may even have a hand in building certain projects. I had the pleasure of building and installing in Alert the first remote system to Leitrim. You will never run out of things to fix.




               Regards OLD F of S


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## 291er (30 Jun 2006)

hahahaha yeah us 291ers are very good at breaking things too   but hey, someone has to keep those crafty techies busy... :warstory:


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## navymich (30 Jun 2006)

The trade is still in the back of my mind, not letting the thought die out completely yet.  I guess a couple of things going for me: already have a level III, and I can type about 85 WPM.  Question though, how easy is it to transfer your knowledge of morse code by light (10 WPM) to sound?


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## 291er (30 Jun 2006)

Hard to say, you start out by learning it on cards, so I suppose it would'nt hurt......10 wpm is pretty slow anyhow, you should be alright.....It's a great trade, just get through the QL3 and you're laughing, so many different things to do in this trade, it's amazing.


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## randyh81 (3 Jul 2006)

I don't have time to get the math pack before i go on course in kingston, what type of math is on the test


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## Sneaky147 (3 Jul 2006)

randyh81 said:
			
		

> I don't have time to get the math pack before i go on course in kingston, what type of math is on the test



Hey,

Know fractions, scientific notation, trig, algebraic equations, logarithms... I think that's it.  Anyway, if you have at least a basic knowledge of these which most people do then you're laughing.  The book they give you in Kingstonis pretty good and it lays things out fairly well.  

Good luck!


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## dk (3 Jul 2006)

navymich said:
			
		

> how easy is it to transfer your knowledge of morse code by light (10 WPM) to sound?



There's a ex-NavComm on my course, and he was doing 16wpm by light. With a short break at PRETC, and a few weeks here without doing Morse, he started at around 6wpm easily, and is wokring on 9wpm now all within 4 weeks. He has mentioned that since he knew the alphabet it helped, but it's different because you use completely differnet senses.


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## WannaBeFlyer (6 Jul 2006)

Sneaky,

Does Leitrim have any Comm Rsch Reservists or are they all with 763? (Not that they are that far from me, just curious)

I'm looking to apply over 6 years of IT experience to a trade in the Reserves and have had a bit of trouble finding info on the trade. (Well, actually, for some reason Sig Op was suggested to me.) I was told by the recruiting centre a while back that I could go in semi-skilled as a Sig Op but that didn't seem to be as much of an IT trade as Comm Rsch. It sounds like Comm Rsch is much more IT orientated or am I wrong? (Forgive my lack of knowledge, just trying to find out which one is a better fit for someone with my experience.)

Thanks in advance.


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## Sneaky147 (6 Jul 2006)

MikeG said:
			
		

> Sneaky,
> 
> Does Leitrim have any Comm Rsch Reservists or are they all with 763? (Not that they are that far from me, just curious)
> 
> ...



Hey,

There are no reservce 291ers in Leitrim.  With the shift system it just wouldn't work.  As far as the IT goes, SigOp IS more of an IT trade in one facet, as there is some IT training on their 3's.  291ers have no IT training save for some basic UNIX segments done.  Now, that being said, there is a segment of the 291 trade that looks after our IT sector, and yet another that does 'other stuff'.  You would'nt just walk in with an IT background and rock out with these guys though, specialized training would be necessary.  This is why an IT background would qualify you as 'semi-skilled' as a SigOp but not as a 291er.  291ers are more operators than anything, but if your chain of command finds out you are capable of writing scripts and that kind of thing, you'd get brownie points, but we are more or less operators and we don't mess with settings or software.  

Hope that answers your question.


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## 291er (6 Jul 2006)

Furthermore to Sneaky's comment....the idea is to eventually get reservists from 763 at Leitrim to backfill certain positions.  The problem being, first they'll have to get trained up over 3 summers, and secondly, they'll have to get their clearance, so this is more of a long term goal.  I could see it happening.  One exception, reg force 291ers who retire and become reservists, thereby retaining their skillsets and clearances.  There is one such 291er working at Leitrim (CFIOG) right now in this capacity.  
Whether these reservists will compliment the shift system, that remains to be seen.  I suspect so, we'll get reservists on class B contracts, and they'll have to work shift work throughout the summer.  It would certainly help with summer leave blocks as well.  I think it will be a good thing in the long run, once we get it off the ground.  It's still in its embryonic stages now, but hopefully we'll see some progress in the near future.


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## dk (6 Jul 2006)

The first group of 291 Reserves is going through their first summer - started a couple of weeks ago. According to the recruiting site, it's supposed to be a 2 summer program. Some of this batch already have their clearance and some of them were to be Sig Op Res, but hadn't done their 3's yet. The curriculum seems the same as Reg, without the Morse Code.


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## WannaBeFlyer (7 Jul 2006)

Thanks a lot for the replies; I'll head to the CFRC Monday and discuss it with them. Although I might be out of luck for this summer or this year for that matter. I thought 763 only offers Basic in the summer or am I wrong? 

Cheers and thanks again everybody.

Mike


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## gelan (22 Nov 2006)

Are all 291's employed in the Ottawa Area, or is there other  places to be posted? My family lives in the Ottawa area and I would like to stick around there once I'm done my course in kingston (Re-enlisting after a little over a year out of Infantry).

Is the Course in Kingston full of stuff like kit/room Inspections, parades, and other superfluous tasks, or is it pretty easy going for that stuff?


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## Mithras (22 Nov 2006)

Nice topic, glad it got bumped.  This is the trade I was offered today and to be honest it was my second choice and I just pulled it off the wall without really looking at it so my knowledge of it isn't that great.

I was a little bummed out about not getting my first choice but I am actually finding this one piquing my interest.

*@ Gelan:*  From what I can gather all newbies are sent to the Ottawa area.


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## gelan (22 Nov 2006)

I understand that "new guys" get sent to Ottawa(Leitrim) but what's the chances of sticking around there? or in the area? I was all over the place in the Infantry, and just want to know what kind of stability there is in this trade...

Off topic:

What was your first choisce, Mithras?


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## Mithras (22 Nov 2006)

First choice was "Water, Fuels and Environmental Technician".   I spent three + years studying Environmental Protections so I was gunning for that position (would have helped me finish my co-op too).

I have education in Network Support and extensive knowledge with regards to computers so parts of Comm. Research shouldn't be too foreign to me.


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## janedoe (26 Nov 2006)

From what I hear you can spend your entire life in Ottawa if you really want to.


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## Darien (7 Dec 2006)

Removed


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## sigtech (7 Dec 2006)

Mithras said:
			
		

> First choice was "Water, Fuels and Environmental Technician".   I spent three + years studying Environmental Protections so I was gunning for that position (would have helped me finish my co-op too).
> 
> I have education in Network Support and extensive knowledge with regards to computers so parts of Comm. Research shouldn't be too foreign to me.



Just so you know Comm. Research do not handle Network Support that is spread threw the Sig Op and LCIS trades on the army side and ATIS on the air side. This is also true with computer repair datacomms and most things dealing with direct support for computer systems. 

As for what Comm. Research members do other then wait for their clearances I haven’t a clue


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## spud (7 Dec 2006)

Darien said:
			
		

> actualy, on the note of network support, we happen todo network support, it all depends on which section they are in within leitrum.  A communicator research operator can get lots of chances todo network support, CFNOC is a good spot for that.
> 
> Ultimatly, it all depends on where you get put when you are in the trade, though you have to be CPL or above to get into CFNOC.
> 
> ...



So are you "in" the trade?


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## George Wallace (7 Dec 2006)

And I am sure that you people have all read the Rules of conduct for this site........and have a good knowledge of the following:



From OPSEC for CF Operations:

OPSEC is defined as the process, which gives a military operation appropriate security, using passive or active means , to deny the enemy knowledge of the dispositions, capabilities and intentions of friendly forces.  

As a member of army.ca you have agreed to the conduct guidelines as outlined by the owner.  They can be read here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

Army.ca restrictions are not meant to restrict your freedom of general discussion.  For example,

a.  HUMINT - The requirements for HUMINT (CANFORGEN), its use on previous CF operations (Army Dispatches) and its employment (CF Doctrine) are readily available for all to see.  What is missing is its use on current and future planned operations.  This is the vital ground of OPSEC.

b.  ROE - ROE for specific operations are classified and the release of any information pertaining to ongoing or future operations is a breach of operational security.  We have members of the Canadian Forces deployed and the release of this information, intentional or otherwise, could place their lives at risk and potentially place your life at risk the next time you are deployed overseas.  Discussion should remain general in nature on what ROE are and why are they used and should avoid references to actual events.  

If you notice a questionable post, feel free to use the "report to moderator function". 

Failure to adhere to army.ca policy could result in the issuing of warnings or if your actions are serious enough, it could be turned over to the military police to investigate.

Cheers


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## Darien (7 Dec 2006)

any information i have posted can be found on google if you search hard enough, just in responce to the message above about OPSEC.


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## George Wallace (7 Dec 2006)

Darien said:
			
		

> any information i have posted can be found on google if you search hard enough, just in responce to the message above about OPSEC.



As you may say, but the WARNING is there to ensure that what you do post is within the guidelines of OPSEC in case you should stray outside of what is posted as OPEN SOURCE.

BE WARNED to watch what you post.


(PS.  Don't try to be a smartass with the Staff.)


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## Mithras (7 Dec 2006)

sigtech said:
			
		

> Just so you know Comm. Research do not handle Network Support that is spread threw the Sig Op and LCIS trades on the army side and ATIS on the air side. This is also true with computer repair datacomms and most things dealing with direct support for computer systems.
> 
> As for what Comm. Research members do other then wait for their clearances I haven’t a clue



Aye, I understand completely .  I am looking forward to waiting for clearance.


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## tempest77 (10 Dec 2006)

Sneaky147 said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> 
> If anyone has any questions about becoming a Communicator Research Operator, let me know.  I've been one for 3 years, and I find there are many, many misconceptions about this trade.  It's a really great trade and I enjoy it a lot.  I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has about it.
> 
> Cheers



When I asked my recruiter if the position was open, he said that there was 0 for air, something like 5 for army and 25 for Navy.  I didn't realize you had to apply for a specific faction.  I'm interested in the Navy, so would I still be given the Soldier Qualification training or would they replace that with something more geared for the Navy like Basic Military Occupational Training?

I'm wondering if you could go into more detail what the Navy faction would be like.  Would I be assigned to a ship briefly or would it more likely be long term?  Would I live either in Halifax or Esquimalt?  Would I go out to sea like everyone else would on the ship?  

Thanks!


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## Mithras (10 Dec 2006)

tempest77 said:
			
		

> When I asked my recruiter if the position was open, he said that there was 0 for air, something like 5 for army and 25 for Navy.  I didn't realize you had to apply for a specific faction.  I'm interested in the Navy, so would I still be given the Soldier Qualification training or would they replace that with something more geared for the Navy like Basic Military Occupational Training?
> 
> I'm wondering if you could go into more detail what the Navy faction would be like.  Would I be assigned to a ship briefly or would it more likely be long term?  Would I live either in Halifax or Esquimalt?  Would I go out to sea like everyone else would on the ship?
> 
> Thanks!


You don't apply for an element, you apply for the trade.  They may give you the option of which element you want to serve in, I wasn't given a choice but I know of someone else who was.

All 291's get SQ training and pretty soon all new recruits will be getting SQ regardless of their trade,  due to SQ being absorbed into BMQ training (if I recall correctly).

Once we are done waiting for clearance and finished training we are assigned to CFS Leitrim (outside Ottawa).  I can't say to what extent we are deployed, going to have to wait for someone more in the know than I.


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## gelan (10 Dec 2006)

Unless all 291's are Army(which they aren't) then your statement about SQ  is completely wrong. SQ is for ARMY trades, not specific trades.

 When you put in your application, you are given the option of which element you wish to be in. If you choose Army(and there are openings in the army element of your trade), then you will do SQ, if not, I'm sure there are other element specific training that you will have to do.


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## Former291er (10 Dec 2006)

291 is a purple trade, a support trade. Which element you are has little to do with where you do tours or soon, which training you do. I have 3 friends in Astaan right now and none of them are army and i have one army friend on nato tour on ship. Where you go depends on what you are trained on, not what element you are. 
As far as training, we just had a CM briefing last week and every 291er will do AT LEAST 2 tours with 2 EW before your SGTs, and all will do military SQ and JLQ.
Hope that helps a bit.
Cheers.


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## gelan (10 Dec 2006)

Former291er said:
			
		

> ...every 291er will do AT LEAST 2 tours with 2 EW before your SGTs, and all will do military SQ and JLQ.



I stand corrected...


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## sigtech (11 Dec 2006)

Yep being purple a 291'r can go to any base and be placed in any position that is required for there trade if they are trained on the equipment needed


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## 17thRecceSgt (12 Dec 2006)

sigtech said:
			
		

> Just so you know Comm. Research do not handle Network Support that is spread threw the Sig Op and LCIS trades on the army side and ATIS on the air side. This is also true with computer repair datacomms and most things dealing with direct support for computer systems.
> 
> As for what Comm. Research members do other then wait for their clearances I haven’t a clue



I am pretty sure I was on course with some 291'rs from CFNOC on some pretty "network support" courses.  Recently too...as in...the last year.  Did this change??  This was Enterprise NOS type stuff too.  Curious...

Oh.  Pretty sure means...ya they were 291'rs.... ;D


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## Former291er (13 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure I was on course with some 291'rs from CFNOC on some pretty "network support" courses.  Recently too...as in...the last year.  Did this change??  This was Enterprise NOS type stuff too.  Curious...
> 
> Oh.  Pretty sure means...ya they were 291'rs.... ;D



Mud Recce Man is absolutely right. We have different places you can work within leitrim, and i'm sure other places, where a member is heavily involved in the networking side of things.
Cheers.


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## sigtech (14 Dec 2006)

I have never seen any 291'er course loaded on any Network courses here at CFSCE, also I know a few techs from CFCMU that go to Ottawa on a regular basis to conduct Network maintenance. 

I could be wrong but from what I know from the tech side it isn't part of there job description. 

Now when it comes to network work there is a huge peeing match bettween sigops LCIS and ATIS, who does what , who is suppose to be doing what etc etc etc , so could 291'ers be doing this kind of work, sure they could , should they well that is best left for a different thread.


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## Mithras (14 Dec 2006)

Not to belabour the point but:



> A Communicator Research Operator has the following primary duties:
> 
> -   Collect, process, analyze and report on electromagnetic activity (including communications) throughout the spectrum of radio frequencies, using an extensive array of highly sophisticated communications and direction-finding equipment;
> 
> ...



Straight from:  Comms Research Op. Overview: Recruiting Website


----------



## sigtech (3 Jan 2007)

ummmmmmm that is recruiting site isn't it .

BTW they lie

I put this out here how many guys from the RcR do people know that when they first got in were asked:

Hey you like to go camping and hunting right?
Sure do I love that stuff?
Then you don't want to join the Air Force you want to join the combat arms, they go camping all the time...............

What is my point ,oh ya what you read on those sites or are told at the recruiting center is passable what you will be doing. 

I have never once seen "sweep the parade square" or stack 6' tables on one poster or website  ;D


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## Remius (3 Jan 2007)

Then blame the managing authorities for the shitty info.  All the info on the websites, RIAs and videos at CFRCs are originally from each managing authority.  So if the comms stuff is all lies, then blame the comms guys cause they came up with what they wanted on that stuff.

C'mon Sigtech, read the boatswain info monograph.  Brutally honest about painting and sweeping the ship  ;D


----------



## sigtech (3 Jan 2007)

Hey now I didn't say it was all lies

I am saying don't swallow it hole and expect it to be all true

What the managing authorities write could be true in a perfect world but we are steering off topic I believe



My main point is this as far as what I have seen and know to be truth is there are allot of people with there fingers in the pie when it comes to Network stuff.

Wiring , Techs set up network wiring and such, Linemen say it is their job
Sigops act a system admins, techs say it is their job 
Some Network shops depending on who is in charge only want ATIS Techs stating let the LCIS guys handle the green stuff
And So on and So on
There is no clear line on who handles what when it comes to Network Admin side of things
There in-lies the issue, it all depends where you end up
Take at 2EW who handles the 291's equipment repair etc etc LCIS techs.
I am sure there are places where the security level is such that they handle administration locally I am saying it isn't the "norm" .

that is all


----------



## Remius (3 Jan 2007)

Sorry if it came off a little defensive.  Not my intent.  Actually you do have a valid point.  A few years ago I visited the school in Kingston on a PD trip.  I learned more there than I ever did through videos or info brochures.  The biggest beef was the math requirement for Comms Research types.  The complaint was that the grade 10 requirement didn't cut it anymore.  I also learned that linemen do as much if not more PT than CBT arms types on their course and that the fear of heights was big factor in people getting RTUed.

Very eye opening.

Not true for Boatswains.  Most of the Naval techies that fail their training end up getting that  ;D


----------



## sigtech (3 Jan 2007)

no worries , defensive is ok

leads to good debate


----------



## dirtyjob (3 Jan 2007)

I initially spoke with a recruiting officer back at the start of November. My initial interests were Comm Research and Sig OP. The Recruiting Officer said that if I wanted to be deployed, and have a trade that was "exciting and active", that I would not enjoy Comm Research. I ended up applying for Sig Op, I am currently Merit Listed and anxiously awaiting "the call". I wonder if the Recruiting Officers just try to suggest the trades with the most need, as I am very suprised to hear that Comm Research is the 2nd most deployed trade, what would be the first? Infranty?


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## sigtech (3 Jan 2007)

hmmmmmmmmm 1st most deployed trade I don't know Sigop

I didn't think 291'ers deployed that much

I know that sigops are deployed all the time and if you end up at JSR in kingston expect to be gone alot alot alot


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## DeltaWhiskey (3 Jan 2007)

Guys, what is the Variable Initial Engagement duration for this trade? (I hope I stated that correctly.)
Thanks.


----------



## sigtech (3 Jan 2007)

DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> Guys, what is the Variable Initial Engagement duration for this trade? (I hope I stated that correctly.)
> Thanks.



All Trades have the same VIE

Check the link it should answer all your questions

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/5_05/5_05_tos_e.asp


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## DeltaWhiskey (3 Jan 2007)

"Every day is a school day." Thanks, sigtech.


----------



## sigtech (3 Jan 2007)

np and remember if you can't find it here Google it  ;D


----------



## Remius (3 Jan 2007)

sigtech said:
			
		

> All Trades have the same VIE
> 
> Check the link it should answer all your questions
> 
> http://www.dnd.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/5_05/5_05_tos_e.asp



Not quite.  VIEs are trade specific. 291 (00120) have a 4 year VIE.

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp


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## DeltaWhiskey (3 Jan 2007)

Correct, Crantor. Information at the link that sigtech posted states that the VIE varies from one occupation to another. So, it's 4 years, hey (plus additional time punched in training for the occupation). I couldn't access the link you provided, Crantor. (Ever since I upgraded Internet Explorer, things just haven't been the same...don't know if that's the reason why, though.   )


----------



## Remius (3 Jan 2007)

I accessed it through the DIN.  That's probably why.  Sorry.

Here is the Comm Rsch TOS sequence VIE 4 CE 3 IE 25


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## DeltaWhiskey (3 Jan 2007)

Excellent, thanks.
*Just an edit to ask a question, here.*
The recruiting website states there are opportunities to work in places like Texas, Maryland, California, and Hawaii, etc. Is it likely to get a chance at these posts for someone new to the CF and the trade in particular, or does this come primarily with experience and time in the CF? Sneaky147, any comments?


----------



## Remius (3 Jan 2007)

Ok, I'm straying out of my lanes here, but I remember someone from the 291 branch brief us that 100% of all 291 grads are posted to Leitrim for their 1st posting.  Or a detachment of said location.  Greenwood I believe is one of those places.

Please correct me if this is wrong.


----------



## DeltaWhiskey (3 Jan 2007)

Yes, the CF website does state that graduates will be posted to Leitrim. I'm wondering when would the other posting opportunities possibly become available? I'm guessing there are many factors like personnel needs, positions available, experience of the individual, etc., that affect this decision. It seems that Hawaii is _too _ exotic for newbies to the trade.


----------



## Former291er (3 Jan 2007)

Hey,
    As far as postings go you are going to be told that you need your ql5 qualification before you go anywhere, although rumors of sending new privates to the regiment have been going around. If you talk to your career counsellor he will most likely tell you not to come see him for a posting until you have your fives and a tour under your belt, at least that's what we were told.
Hope that helps.


----------



## sigtech (4 Jan 2007)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Not quite.  VIEs are trade specific. 291 (00120) have a 4 year VIE.
> 
> http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp



opps Thanks for the corection Crantor ( There is a a reason I didn't go cleark  :rofl

DeltaWhiskey save your loonies cus once you graduate you off to Ottawa. 

Then 4 - 5 years after ( This isn't a for sure this is roughly the normal lenght of a posting and this is changeing due to the need for people in other locations) then you could get a posting out.


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## DeltaWhiskey (4 Jan 2007)

sigtech said:
			
		

> DeltaWhiskey save your loonies cus once you graduate you off to Ottawa.



Good one. LOL


----------



## Sneaky147 (13 Jan 2007)

DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> Excellent, thanks.
> *Just an edit to ask a question, here.*
> The recruiting website states there are opportunities to work in places like Texas, Maryland, California, and Hawaii, etc. Is it likely to get a chance at these posts for someone new to the CF and the trade in particular, or does this come primarily with experience and time in the CF? Sneaky147, any comments?



The postings are definitely there for those who are willing to show a little bit of ability, I had two friends posted stateside last year.  As far as postings out of Leitrim, it's getting easier to get to 2EW in Kingston.  This whole Afghanistan thing is causing shortages our way too.  The kicker of being a 291er is your clearance.  It takes a while to get, and training can be quite long.  Fortunately the staff who train you are excellent, I'm back in Kingston on my 5's and there are excellent instructors there who do their best to maintain the welfare of the troops there.  

You're probably not going to get posted anywhere before your 5's unless you had some rank and your PLQ in another trade.  It's even unusual for this to happen, but I've seen it happen.  The good news is that the trade is getting squeezed so hard for bodies that they've stepped up the rate at which 5's get pumped through, and the wait time to get your 5's is decreasing rapidly.  Also, there are quite a few courses that historically require 5's qual which are getting more and more 3's.  Another thing to think of is that even though ALL 291ers at present are posted to Leitrim, not all of our Capital Region postings are in Leitrim.  We are in several other locations in Ottawa as well.  As postings go, Ottawa is a pretty good go.  It's a little bit expensive, but I'm from Winnipeg, and housing costs have gone up a lot more there than they have in Ottawa.  I'm not quite spec pay yet, but I have managed to live quite comfortably in Ottawa with a wife who works a reasonable job.  I still have 2 cars, go on vacation every year, eat out a few times a month, and satisfy my wife's insatiable appetite for shoes.  The raise we just got affects spec pay big, and I'm looking forward to getting my 5's behind me so I can collect...


----------



## Sneaky147 (13 Jan 2007)

dirtyjob said:
			
		

> I initially spoke with a recruiting officer back at the start of November. My initial interests were Comm Research and Sig OP. The Recruiting Officer said that if I wanted to be deployed, and have a trade that was "exciting and active", that I would not enjoy Comm Research. I ended up applying for Sig Op, I am currently Merit Listed and anxiously awaiting "the call". I wonder if the Recruiting Officers just try to suggest the trades with the most need, as I am very suprised to hear that Comm Research is the 2nd most deployed trade, what would be the first? Infranty?



2nd most deployed trade?  I believe it.  There isn't a ship that sails without a group of 291ers on board, and every land based operation has at the VERY least SOME amount of support from 291ers.  Quick FYI, we don't read soldiers' emails.  We're a little bit preoccupied with stopping IED strikes and the like to worry about that.  Yes, there is a stigma with a little bit of truth that we can't recognize the dangerous end of a C7, but we get to the range once a year for a fam firing.  It's not entirely the operator's fault.  The truth is that if you have a 291er supporting you, you will probably fall ass-backward into good information, and your odds of success will be weighted in your favor.


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## Sneaky147 (14 Jan 2007)

sigtech said:
			
		

> Hey now I didn't say it was all lies
> 
> I am saying don't swallow it hole and expect it to be all true
> 
> ...


----------



## danny1222 (17 Jan 2007)

what shift schedule would a typical 291'er have?
would it take 3-4yrs for OJT between your QL3 - QL5?

sneaky147,  how does your wife deal with you working night shifts & her work schedule?

p.s. thanks for the replies,  you have shed lots of light on this topic


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## Sneaky147 (19 Jan 2007)

Danny,

Good questions!

As far as the OJT goes, the wait time is getting less and less.  The demand for QL5 trained 291ers is getting scary.  I am on my 5's right now, and I will graduate 23 months after my 3's grad.  

As far as the shift work, I really think that it's helped my relationship with my wife for a few reasons.  I'm one of those people who like a fair amount of time to myself, and my wife knows it, so I get tonnes of time alone when I'm working eves and mids, or on days off.  Plus, I always have supper ready for her when she gets home, and who wouldn't like that?  The only times that can be a point of contention are when I'm working eves, and I don't really see her at all.  But that's max 3 days.  I tend to get a lot of stuff done during the day, as well.  It's just easier.  

I really enjoyed working shift, some find it hard, but it always sat well with me.  

If you have any further questions, don't hesitate...

Rob


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## Intentionalcyn (12 Jul 2007)

I guess I'm bumping this thread back to the top now?

 I've just registered so I could get a little more information about this career as it is one I am seriously considering enlisting for.

 I've gotten a lot of information from all of you, so thanks for that! I do have one main question, though, that I hope someone will see and be able to answer. It has been said a few times that this is the 2nd most likely position to be deployed, but I've also read that there are numerous positions available on the ground in Canada to serve as well.
 The thing is, and I realize this is less choice than I'd like, I don't want to go away for long periods of time. I'm young (well, 29) and married, and the thought of leaving my wife by herself for months at a time does not agree with me. So, my question is this: How likely am I to be sent off for long-term assignments? Now, I'm not talking about a week here and there once a month, I'm talking about being away for 2 or 3 months at a time without seeing my wife.

 So, hopefully someone will be able to offer me a realistic answer-- And hopefully it'll be the one I'm looking for, too!

 Thanks for reading!

A.


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## Ex-Dragoon (12 Jul 2007)

Internationalcyn in all honesty if you are not prepared to deploy for long periods of time, I would really consider another career choice as you are not much good to the CF if you cannot deploy where needed for periods longer then 2 months.


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## Intentionalcyn (12 Jul 2007)

Well I appreciate the quick reply. I guess all I can tell you is that no matter where I'm doing, I'll be doing the best I can. I hope to be of use to the service, just like anyone.

 Can you give me more info about your statement, though? I could assume that you're telling me that I would often be away, but *how* often, and for *how* long?

 I know things are varied and flexible, but I'm sure you would agree that more info is better than less info.

 I read something else after making my first post this afternoon that said something about it being normal to be sent away for up to 3 months every 3 years. Something to that affect, at least. So, could that mean then that I would be away for 3 months (let's say), but then I would be on a posting at home for the rest of the 3 years?


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## Ex-Dragoon (13 Jul 2007)

Always depends on what unit your part of, whats going on in the world, if there is a demand for your specialty and whether or not our political masters decide to send us. You will in your career be part of 6 month deployments that get cancelled and your home after a month and on the flip side you could be on week long deployment and be gone 6 months.



> I read something else after making my first post this afternoon that said something about it being normal to be sent away for up to 3 months every 3 years. Something to that affect, at least. So, could that mean then that I would be away for 3 months (let's say), but then I would be on a posting at home for the rest of the 3 years?


Can you provide a source?I have been away for 6 months home for 2 months and then gone for 7 months.


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## Intentionalcyn (13 Jul 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Always depends on what unit your part of, whats going on in the world, if there is a demand for your specialty and whether or not our political masters decide to send us. You will in your career be part of 6 month deployments that get cancelled and your home after a month and on the flip side you could be on week long deployment and be gone 6 months.



 Well, I do understand that you go where you're told. I know that's part of the deal-- My father was Navy and he was off on ship quite a bit. I was just hoping to avoid certain parts, you know? <laughs> Naive, probably.
 I don't want my kids growing up without me, you know what I mean?



			
				Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Can you provide a source?I have been away for 6 months home for 2 months and then gone for 7 months.



 Hmmm, no, sorry, man. I can't remember where I read that, or even whether it was an "official" source. Perhaps it was just a generalization?

 Okay, one more question: Based on your own experiences or things you've heard, would you be any more or less likely to be tapped for long-term deployment based upon which branch of the service you join? Army, Navy, Air, I mean?


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## gelan (13 Jul 2007)

Comms Research is a "purple" trade, so it doesn't matter what element you're in to be deployed somewhere. You can be an Army guy on a Boat with the Navy, or posted to an Air Force unit, or stuck in the dusty tents with the infantry if you're an Air Force. 

Again, If you're looking to not be deployed or be away from your family for a long period of time, this trade isn't for you. You could see anywhere from 2-3 years until you have a permanent posting(being stuck in a Single Quarters room with 4 other dudes in Kingston or Borden while on course or waiting for course). I think you may want to look at police forces as an option before you commit to the CF.


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## Intentionalcyn (13 Jul 2007)

gelan said:
			
		

> Comms Research is a "purple" trade, so it doesn't matter what element you're in to be deployed somewhere. You can be an Army guy on a Boat with the Navy, or posted to an Air Force unit, or stuck in the dusty tents with the infantry if you're an Air Force.



 Okay, that makes sense. So, depending on my posting, I could be wearing a Navy uniform while on a ship or fatigues while in a "dusty tent?" It sounds like you're saying there is no "standard" uniform, but that doesn't make much sense to me-- Am I understanding wrong? Please excuse me if this is a silly question; I'm learning as much as possible.



			
				gelan said:
			
		

> Again, If you're looking to not be deployed or be away from your family for a long period of time, this trade isn't for you. You could see anywhere from 2-3 years until you have a permanent posting(being stuck in a Single Quarters room with 4 other dudes in Kingston or Borden while on course or waiting for course). I think you may want to look at police forces as an option before you commit to the CF.



 I see; that's discouraging news! So, what you're saying is that I would, after the BMQ, be in group housing (I don't want to say orphanage, but. . .) for anywhere up to 3 years? It was my understanding that after BMQ, once I'm sent to where ever I go to train for the 45 weeks (approx.), the military would move my wife down and we could either buy or rent a place while I train. It sounds like you're saying that isn't the case?

 The police is a good career, I'm sure. I'm not sure that would be the one for me, though. I have this thing where I don't like to get shot at. I don't mind violence and the general requirements of "fighting crime" and war, of course, but prefer to be in a position where I am guaranteed a win-- Which is why the 291 appeals to me-- It's sneaky and gives our guys the advantage over the other guys with guns.


----------



## gelan (13 Jul 2007)

Intentionalcyn said:
			
		

> Okay, that makes sense. So, depending on my posting, I could be wearing a Navy uniform while on a ship or fatigues while in a "dusty tent?" It sounds like you're saying there is no "standard" uniform, but that doesn't make much sense to me-- Am I understanding wrong? Please excuse me if this is a silly question; I'm learning as much as possible.



No, what I'm saying is that if you choose Army as your element, wherever you go, you'll be dressed as army. If you choose Navy, wherever you go, you'll be dressed as Navy. BUT Army guys can be posted to Naval and Air Force units interchangeably, and vice-versa. Hope that's clear enough



> I see; that's discouraging news! So, what you're saying is that I would, after the BMQ, be in group housing (I don't want to say orphanage, but. . .) for anywhere up to 3 years? It was my understanding that after BMQ, once I'm sent to where ever I go to train for the 45 weeks (approx.), the military would move my wife down and we could either buy or rent a place while I train. It sounds like you're saying that isn't the case?



From when you enroll, until you are finally posted to your first "permanent" unit, you will be living in Single Quarters. While in BMQ, you'll be living in St. Jean for however long BMQ is now.

Once you're done BMQ, you will be posted to Kingston, but subsequently Attatch Posted to a unit in Borden called Post-Recruit Education and Training Centre (PRETC), which is the dumping ground for people after they're done BMQ and such while they wait for their actual Trade course to start who are headed to either Borden, Kingston, or Trenton(i believe). Your stay there could be anywhere from 3months to the extreme of 3 years, depending on circumstances, but usually less than a year. THEN you are off to your course in Kingston. The first phase of the course is unclassified, and you can do this at your initial Clearance level. This phase is relatively short, I gather. Once you're done the first phase, you are sometimes sent back to PRETC to wait for your Security Clearance to be upgraded to level 3(Top Secret) so you can continue with the training. OR you may be kept in Kingston for On the Job Training(OJT). This limbo period can take a year or more while CSIS gets your clearance taken care of. Then the rest of the course. About another 8-10 months( I don't remember how long Phase 2 is). 

This whole time, if you want your family close to you, you will have to move them to you on your own dime. You will be staying in the Single Quarters though. You won't be eligible for a military-funded family move until you're out of training and posted somewhere(usually Ottawa). I think while you're in PRETC, you can apply for on base housing for your family where you can live with them, but again that move is on your own dime.




> The police is a good career, I'm sure. I'm not sure that would be the one for me, though. I have this thing where I don't like to get shot at. I don't mind violence and the general requirements of "fighting crime" and war, of course, but prefer to be in a position where I am guaranteed a win-- Which is why the 291 appeals to me-- It's sneaky and gives our guys the advantage over the other guys with guns.



Keep in mind that when you are deployed, you usually are "outside the wire" and in just as dangerous situations as anyone else. If you're worried about getting shot at, the CF definitely is NOT for you.  There is more chance for you to be a casualty in the CF than in a police force. Sorry, but that's the reality.

[Mods:I don't think any of that is OPSEC related, if it is, please remove]


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## Intentionalcyn (13 Jul 2007)

gelan said:
			
		

> No, what I'm saying is that if you choose Army as your element, wherever you go, you'll be dressed as army. If you choose Navy, wherever you go, you'll be dressed as Navy. BUT Army guys can be posted to Naval and Air Force units interchangeably, and vice-versa. Hope that's clear enough



 That is perfectly clear; thanks for clarifying!



			
				gelan said:
			
		

> From when you enroll, until you are finally posted to your first "permanent" unit, you will be living in Single Quarters. While in BMQ, you'll be living in St. Jean for however long BMQ is now.
> 
> ---snip---
> 
> Keep in mind that when you are deployed, you usually are "outside the wire" and in just as dangerous situations as anyone else. If you're worried about getting shot at, the CF definitely is NOT for you.  There is more chance for you to be a casualty in the CF than in a police force. Sorry, but that's the reality.



 Well, now *this* is definitly not the way the recruiter made it sound. <laughs> I suppose that happens a lot. I can understand the military not paying for the move, though, until I've completed training-- There would be a certain percentage of people who don't pass, and they wouldn't want to spend money on someone that can't hack it. I would hate to be that guy.
 I can see why they do it the way they do it, but just the same, they certainly make it hard for a guy with a family, don't they? Did you have any problems along my lines, Gelan? Not wanting to be far from your wife if you could help it?
 This is certainly something extra to consider, that's for sure. So, supposing that we pay for the move and get her housing and all that off-base, am I able to live with them? Or do I have to live on base the entire time during this waiting period (whether it lasts 3 months or 3 years)? I've read that I would be doing general duties (helping out where ever I'm told, basically) while waiting for my Security Clearance, and getting paid of course, but am I confined to base?

 I would imagine most everyone would be worried about getting shot at. The trick for most is not letting that worry consume them. <laughs>

 Thanks very much for continuing to answer my questions!! How long have you been in this particular track? (I have trouble calling it a trade. I'm an HVAC guy, and I think of that as a trade; plumbing, heating, drywall, etc. Military work seems to be to be a higher calling than "just a trade.")


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## EW (13 Jul 2007)

Intentionalcyn,

your advice on this board has been bang on.

I've just finished 20 years as a 291'er (Comm Rsch), and retired as a MWO at Leitrim.  Three six month'ers overseas, three six month'ers in Alert in the high Arctic, more three month trips than I want to count, and a minimum of two years away from my home unit taking training courses.  I will tell you up front. Do not pick this trade if you are not willing to commit to deployments.  There are a number of Comm Rsch who work in jobs that won't require them to deploy but they are now the minority.  The CF doesn't need folks who can't deploy, or who get promoted to such a level that they are useless in the field, or on board ship when they do get deployed.  The career manager now looks for the future talent of the trade, and tries to make sure they get field time.  For the first time (regardless of uniform colour) the chances of promotion in Comm Rsch are directly tied to deployments.  As for why the three uniforms, don't get me started .......

It is a great trade, you don't get to talk about it, but you can get immense job satisfaction.   As for 'always winning ...."  Sorry, not so.  We have our 'Tom Clancy'esqe' moments, but this is real world.  We play to win, and so do those who wish to hurt us.  We win some, we lose some, fortunately we win more than we lose.  The good NCO's take it all very personally.  I've attended ramp ceremonies and shed my quiet tears and always walked away more driven then ever.  In our Electronic Warfare (EW) capacity we deploy outside the wire.  Our folks aboard ship see their share of deployments as well.  I was fortunate to have been one of the ones who had a mixed technical and Army EW background when 9/11 happened.  That is the future of Comm Rsch, technically savvy, but able to do their combat support role alongside the infantry/recce/armd/etc.  Enough said.  

I wish you well.  Do some soul searching and if you are ready for the challenge than I'll see you in the mess at Leitrim at some point.  We need good men and women in the "trade."  If not, then I wish you luck in whatever you choose.


----------



## Intentionalcyn (13 Jul 2007)

EW said:
			
		

> Intentionalcyn,
> 
> your advice on this board has been bang on.
> 
> ...



 Rarely do you read something and get a very real sense of the pride someone has for their job. I completely got that when I read your post, EW. Thank you very much for your frank explinations. It's an interesting thing to read things you don't know if you can handle (long deployments will be harder on my wife than I, but when she hurts, I hurt, which I'm sure you understand), but with each sentence, you want it even more. Damn frustrating is what it is.

 Silly of me to expect it to be an easy decision. <laughs & shakes head> I wish I was the type who could sign up, run through the initial 5 years, then quit if I didn't like it. Unfortunately, I'm more of a play for keeps type which means more thinking and planning.
 My concerns are, *I think,* the same as anyone else's before enlisting, and you're right, there's a great deal of soul searching invoved.

 Seriously, thanks very much for taking the time to answer this guy's questions!!

A.


----------



## jmlz87 (24 Oct 2007)

Sorry to bring another topic-from-the dead, but I thought it would be wiser to post here than start a new thread (Mods can correct me on this if they please).

I've received my job offer for COMM RSCH 291/00120 and can hardly contain my enthusiasm! I will be sworn in 25 Oct 07 and BMQ set date is 14 Dec 07 (no idea on serial until Swear-In). 

I'm 20 years old, a pretty curious kid, and have spent much of my time on the computer and other IT systems. I took a lot of time deciding which trade I would apply for, and I'm happy I switched 1st choice from Sig Op to COMM RSCH. If all goes well on my 1st contract, I wouldn't hesitate signing up for my 2nd. I have many questions, but I know, bounded by OPSEC, many can't be answered until I achieve my LvIII.

Therefore, I will ask as many questions as I can pertaining to base-life, and do invite any 291'ers to post details on why they joined, what their preconceived thoughts were about the trade, and afterthoughts after their 3's and 5's:

     Regarding demographics, what is the mean age for 291s? Is it predominately tech-savvy people as well?

     Any base-specific comments about the shacks? Comfortable/not, cozy? On the economy today, is it worth renting elsewhere? I'll look to buy after my VIE.

     Same with meal plans, Rat Card or PAYG? 

    To anyones knowledge, has the CF lost any COMM RSCH operators from any recent OPs? I really haven't seen much talk about casualties trade-specific, even though 291'ers are deployed frequently? (Seems safer than the norm.)

    Any idea with the sudden surge in recruitment for the trade? Has it to do with something specific, the baby-boomers retiring, an expansion of the trade? Any info here would be great!
   
    In regards to DEUs what is the majority out there? 

I know a few of these questions can be answered with my own experiences when I start my 3's and hit my posting, but as you can see I'm quite a curious recruit and love to research as much as I can about anything significant to my life or interest. The decision to join the Canadian Forces has to be one of my most important decisions in life. I look forward to serving with you all, and can't wait to get to CFS Leitrim.

PteR L.


----------



## gelan (26 Oct 2007)

I've just started my phase 1.



			
				jmlz87 said:
			
		

> Regarding demographics, what is the mean age for 291s? Is it predominately tech-savvy people as well?



You will find people from all walks of life, lots of age ranges, and a huge range of skills when it comes to computers/tech. 




> Any base-specific comments about the shacks? Comfortable/not, cozy? On the economy today, is it worth renting elsewhere? I'll look to buy after my VIE.



After your BMQ, you will go to PRETC in borden and rot for a few weeks(at best, more likely it'll be months). Don't let the monotony and BS get to you there though. Keep your kit in tip top shape though, it'll help you once you actually get on course. While you're on PRETC, try and get an SQ course, no matter what element you are, you have to have it in our trade, so you might as well get it on your "down time" in Borden.

Once you get to kingston, you will be in the shacks for the entirety of your Phase 1, and guaranteed you will be sick of them before then. I have 3 years experience in the RCR, and these shacks even get me frustrated at times with how high the cleanliness standard is. Shacks are shacks. Take them for what they are.

After phase 1, you can put a memo in to request to move out, and a lot of people do, and they usually want you to. The shacks have to have room for students on course, so they will "encourage" you to GTFO 

Don't forget that you will need to wait to get your clearance, so chances are you may be 3 years into your contract before you finish your 3's. Be prepared for long waits and little information haha.





> Same with meal plans, Rat Card or PAYG?



 Every base i've been to is you pay a flat fee every month, usually around $400, and you get a meal card that you can go to the mess with, eat as much as you want.




> To anyones knowledge, has the CF lost any COMM RSCH operators from any recent OPs? I really haven't seen much talk about casualties trade-specific, even though 291'ers are deployed frequently? (Seems safer than the norm.)



I don't know for sure, but I don't think any of the deaths have been 291ers. Can someone correct me?



> Any idea with the sudden surge in recruitment for the trade? Has it to do with something specific, the baby-boomers retiring, an expansion of the trade? Any info here would be great!



Both. Recent and upcoming retirements are going to strip the trade of a lot of people.  With the world climate, our skills are becoming more and more valuable to commanders all over the world, so there needs to be more of us to fill those new jobs.
   


> In regards to DEUs what is the majority out there?



What about the DEUs? DEUs are dependent on your element. You can find a lot of info on the uniforms all over this site, and the web in general.


Good luck!


----------



## JBoyd (27 Oct 2007)

Hi all, i have applied for Comm Res as my first choice, i have read alot of information as well as talked to a Op that has been in the trade for 23 years. i do have a couple of questions. first, i was told that after BMQ and SQ(if i choose army element) that they will have me start my QL3, although that the second part can take some time to start due to the long wait in getting clearance. is this correct? or will i still be put into PRETC for a long period of time?

Also, i was told that while in kingston if i wish to stay in kingston i can request that my first posting be in kingston, is this also correct? if so can someone give me an idea of what MQ's are like on base? and what the rent is for a 3 or 4 bdrm MQ, or what the relative rent off base. I have a wife and 2 young children and that is why i ask. I was also told that as soon as i start my training in Kingston that i can have them come out and stay with me and that i can get MQ's instead of single quarters, is this also true?  

as far as what the trade does, being deployed and the such i have no problem with any of it and the actual job itself appeals greatly to me.

thanks in advance to anyone that replies


----------



## Shamrock (27 Oct 2007)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> if so can someone give me an idea of what MQ's are like on base?



CFHA Kingston


----------



## JBoyd (27 Oct 2007)

Thank you for that link Shamrock.

Is there anyone else that could help answer my other questions?


----------



## niceasdrhuxtable (27 Oct 2007)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Thank you for that link Shamrock.
> 
> Is there anyone else that could help answer my other questions?



You will be posted to Kingston so you will be entitled to have your family moved with you and live off-base or in MQs.


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## JBoyd (27 Oct 2007)

niceasdrhuxtable said:
			
		

> You will be posted to Kingston so you will be entitled to have your family moved with you and live off-base or in MQs.



will i be able to have them move there when i start QL3?


----------



## niceasdrhuxtable (27 Oct 2007)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> will i be able to have them move there when i start QL3?



Yes, because you are posted to Kingston for your QL3.


----------



## JBoyd (27 Oct 2007)

ok, thank you very much


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## blacktriangle (29 Oct 2007)

Is there any way to get one of the 3's math packages before entering the trade? Would it be possible/OPSEC for someone to scan me the package electronically? I'm not the best math guy out there, so I want to see if I can do the job before wasting my time, and the CF's...

Cheers.


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## gelan (29 Oct 2007)

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time in PRETC to do the pre QL3 math pack. The CQ at PRETC issues them to all comms research.


----------



## JBoyd (29 Oct 2007)

So where is PRETC for Comm Res and how long can I expect to be there for? Approx.  If it is in Kingston, Ont. then im stoked.


----------



## gelan (29 Oct 2007)

PRETC for every non-combat arms trade is in Borden. Read around, there is a whole thread on it somewhere here.


----------



## JBoyd (29 Oct 2007)

Ah ok, wasn't sure if it was for everyone, or if PRETC was wherever their MOC was.  Either way I am still stoked at recruiting.


----------



## blacktriangle (29 Oct 2007)

gelan said:
			
		

> Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time in PRETC to do the pre QL3 math pack. The CQ at PRETC issues them to all comms research.



To get an idea did most 291'er excel at high level math in school? I was told by a Sgt. in the trade not to worry about it and that its starts very easy and is built upon slowly. However, but I dont always trust recruiters... I have been told I have a good ability for Int type stuff, but the trade isnt available to me at the moment. I really want to give 291 a shot... could anyone pm me an example of the hardest math I'd do?


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## aesop081 (29 Oct 2007)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> To get an idea did most 291'er excel at high level math in school? I was told by a Sgt. in the trade not to worry about it and that its starts very easy and is built upon slowly. However, but I dont always trust recruiters... I have been told I have a good ability for Int type stuff, but the trade isnt available to me at the moment. I really want to give 291 a shot... could anyone pm me an example of the hardest math I'd do?



Let me put it to you this way...

i suck at math.....i mean i am math retarded.  I went to navigation school being a math retard. The school took me from doing 1+1 to trig and on the final exam i got 80%.  I am sure that for the 291 course its the same way......very progressive.

Dont sweat it...just do the work and put in the hours ...the results you get are a reflection of the effort you put in


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## blacktriangle (29 Oct 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Let me put it to you this way...
> 
> i suck at math.....i mean i am math retarded.  I went to navigation school being a math retard. The school too me from doing 1+1 to trig and on the final exam i got 80%.  I am sure that for the 291 course its the same way......very progressive.
> 
> Dont sweat it...just do the work and put in the hours ...the results you get are a reflection of the effort you put in



CDN Aviator,

Roger.

I'm dedicated to the CF before anything, so if its possible, I will do it. I want to be a career NCM, and what you mentioned is what I seek...to get results that reflect my effort. Thanks for the reassurances, much appreciated.

Cheers!


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## JBoyd (29 Oct 2007)

popnfresh, My math skills arnt retardely high, bout 80% i got back in HS, but math is a subject that I enjoy and like, if you would like I can try and help you in some areas that you may not be comfortable with, or at least point you to locations that can help . I as well strive to be a 291


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## niceasdrhuxtable (30 Oct 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Let me put it to you this way...
> 
> i suck at math.....i mean i am math retarded.  I went to navigation school being a math retard. The school took me from doing 1+1 to trig and on the final exam i got 80%.  I am sure that for the 291 course its the same way......very progressive.
> 
> Dont sweat it...just do the work and put in the hours ...the results you get are a reflection of the effort you put in



This is all according to when I did it a couple of years ago so take it for what it's worth.

The 291 math package is self-paced and taught with instruction available on request but it's not a step-by-step walkthrough (very similar to the AES Op PIP). With that in mind, the 291 math package is a fair deal easier than the AES Op version as less material is covered.

But you are correct, it's not unpassable and you'll get what you put into it.

Don't stress the math. Just focus and work hard and you will pass. The course isn't designed for people to fail.


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## lateralus (20 Feb 2008)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> first, i was told that after BMQ and SQ(if i choose army element) that they will have me start my QL3, although that the second part can take some time to start due to the long wait in getting clearance. is this correct? or will i still be put into PRETC for a long period of time?


I guess this kinda answered my question. I was wondering if you go navy in this trade if you have to do SQ as well.  It doesn't stipulate on forces.ca that only army has to do it but my recruiter told me you only have to do SQ if you go army in this trade. Conflicting information..but oh well....


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## Nfld Sapper (20 Feb 2008)

lateralus said:
			
		

> I guess this kinda answered my question. I was wondering if you go navy in this trade if you have to do SQ as well.  It doesn't stipulate on forces.ca that only army has to do it but my recruiter told me you only have to do SQ if you go army in this trade. Conflicting information..but oh well....



The info on that site IMHO is generic for certain info. As for SQ it is a Land Environment Course but I think (could be wrong) that the Navy and Air Force has their own Environment Course.


----------



## lateralus (20 Feb 2008)

Thanks sapper. Hopefully someone just finishing BMQ or has just started QL3 can clear this one up for good.


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## franklincomesalive! (2 Mar 2008)

lateralus said:
			
		

> Thanks sapper. Hopefully someone just finishing BMQ or has just started QL3 can clear this one up for good.



Ask and you shall receive! You will have to do your SQ, regardless of element. You may have to do the NETP later on in your career, should you be posted on a ship. Also, the math pack is self directed, but from my experience there will be at least a couple of 'mathies' in your class to provide help. It's not impossible with enough work, and should you fail there are rewrites provided you can demonstrate that you have put in the effort.


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## lateralus (2 Mar 2008)

franklincomesalive! said:
			
		

> Ask and you shall receive! You will have to do your SQ, regardless of element. You may have to do the NETP later on in your career, should you be posted on a ship. Also, the math pack is self directed, but from my experience there will be at least a couple of 'mathies' in your class to provide help. It's not impossible with enough work, and should you fail there are rewrites provided you can demonstrate that you have put in the effort.



My recruiter insisted countless times that i won't have to do SQ since i will be going navy, but i'll be doing NETP.  I'm merit listed right now for comm. research(navy). I was told there were 6 openings(navy element) that they need to fill by the end of march.  Not that i have a problem with doing SQ if necessary, just seems kind of pointless if you're offered that position with the navy. I guess i'll just have to wait and see!


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## aesop081 (2 Mar 2008)

lateralus said:
			
		

> My recruiter insisted countless times that i won't have to do SQ since i will be going navy, but i'll be doing NETP.  I'm merit listed right now for comm. research(navy). I was told there were 6 openings(navy element) that they need to fill by the end of march.  Not that i have a problem with doing SQ if necessary, just seems kind of pointless if you're offered that position with the navy. I guess i'll just have to wait and see!



You have been offered a position as a COM RESCH wearing a Navy uniform....not a position with the Navy.


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## lateralus (2 Mar 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You have been offered a position as a COM RESCH wearing a Navy uniform....not a position with the Navy.



Ahh i see. Wish my recruiter would have told me that.  I was hoping to go navy with this trade, though i haven't been offered anything yet.


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## aesop081 (3 Mar 2008)

lateralus said:
			
		

> I was hoping to go navy with this trade,



And you may very well find yourself employed in the Navy. But then again you may not. The uniform you wear has little bearing on your place of employment. You will find that ,through the course of your career, you will serve with more than one (if not all 3) of the environments. If you wish to start out working with the Navy, make sure you mention that everytime you chain of command asks for your preferences.


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## lateralus (3 Mar 2008)

Great.  Thanks for the info Aviator.  8)


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## franklincomesalive! (3 Mar 2008)

Just to elaborate a little more on what Aviator said. The uniform actually has NO bearing on what you will be employed doing. There are army (and airforce) people on ships, and navy (and airforce) people in Afghanistan. You will go where your skills are required. Having said that, you definitely picked the coolest looking uniform


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## lateralus (3 Mar 2008)

franklincomesalive! said:
			
		

> Just to elaborate a little more on what Aviator said. The uniform actually has NO bearing on what you will be employed doing. There are army (and airforce) people on ships, and navy (and airforce) people in Afghanistan. You will go where your skills are required. Having said that, you definitely picked the coolest looking uniform



I'm kinda surprised i'm hearing about this on here and not by my recruiter. Guess he doesn't really know much about this trade.  Anyways, how long have you been a 291?  I'm kinda happy they at least ask for your preference of where you'd like to be.  Where have you spent most of your time so far?  And yea, the uniforms are nice aren't they?


----------



## aesop081 (3 Mar 2008)

lateralus said:
			
		

> I'm kinda happy they at least ask for your preference of where you'd like to be.



They'll ask but don't expect to actually get your choice.


----------



## lateralus (3 Mar 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They'll ask but don't expect to actually get your choice.



Yeah, i kinda figured. Arg.


----------



## franklincomesalive! (3 Mar 2008)

lateralus said:
			
		

> I'm kinda surprised i'm hearing about this on here and not by my recruiter. Guess he doesn't really know much about this trade.  Anyways, how long have you been a 291?  I'm kinda happy they at least ask for your preference of where you'd like to be.  Where have you spent most of your time so far?  And yea, the uniforms are nice aren't they?



pm inbound


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## mear (8 Mar 2008)

How much time do you spent in front of computers?
Does the work vary from day to day?
What kind of skills to you use everyday?


----------



## George Wallace (8 Mar 2008)

mear said:
			
		

> How much time do you spent in front of computers?
> Does the work vary from day to day?
> What kind of skills to you use everyday?
> 
> ...



mear

You are just too "innocent" (to be polite).  Why not click on this LINK and see if you can figure out if and when someone in the know will answer all your questions.


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## X-mo-1979 (9 Mar 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> They'll ask but don't expect to actually get your choice.



And when you get Army and your sitting in Halifax on your navy indoc course thingy...

The only Benefit to the Army uniform is you can wear combats.Last time I was at leitrim the Naval pers and Air force were forced to stop wearing combats and start wearing dress uniform.

(this is dated info..about 2 years)


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## Sirrad (10 Apr 2008)

Thanks for all the great info on this tread, I have a few questions, hope you guys can answer.

I just turned 33, previous Reg Force Nav Comm, currently transferring from Reserve to Reg Force, long story short.  This is my 12Th year in the Navy, Reg Force and Reserve.
I guess it is a early mid life crisis.  Civy Life, I am a Network Admin at a University.

What I getting too is Comm Research or ATIS Tech, which one to pick?

I have passed all the recruiting center stuff, Recruit School By Pass, Don't have to do SQ but I am starting over again.  My better half is currently in Basic, getting ready to become a Traffic Tech.

Suggestions/Recommendations


----------



## jmlz87 (12 Apr 2008)

Just a little update.

Still here in the glorious St-Jean Garrison, 23 weeks now. Had a little run in with a knee injury that ended up recoursing 4 weeks back. I'm now beginning week 8, which is test week and workup to Farnham. Finally, just one more week and I'll be out of Garrison. I've seen a few COMM RSCH graduate, I'm wondering if any of them are on here, typing away from PRETC in Borden? (R0099 and up?). If there are, give me a heads up what to expect when I board that bus to freedom after the next 5 weeks? 

Just on the last leg of the training, knees keeping up and I hope to be in Borden sooner than later (really the MEGA is just driving me nuts).


----------



## SoManyChoices (8 Jul 2008)

Would a COMM RSCH Op be involved in the placing of any surveillance equipment or would they only receive the transmitted information? If not, who would do so? An LCIS Tech? I'm interested in doing both field work and office work, but not strictly one or the other.


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## PuckChaser (8 Jul 2008)

You're testing the waters into some security issues that won't get discussed here. However, as a 291er most of your work is at a desk, but you can be posted to 2 EW Sqn in Kingston and ride a desk that's attached to a Bison in the field.


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## SoManyChoices (8 Jul 2008)

I apologize. I'm not looking for any further information other than a yes, no or a career path in the CF. I'm very interested in the field work aspect and was wondering what I should be applying for to do so. I do realize that it would likely take many years to get to this level, but would be more than happy to put in the time to get there. I've tried searching the internet for over 2 weeks and asking friends that are in the military to no avail. Nobody is sure.

On a different note, what is a Bison? Sorry, I'm very new to all of this.

Also, do the 291er's have a PT element like infantry and combat engineers or is it once a year like the recruiters?


----------



## jmlz87 (20 Feb 2009)

Wow my last post was from the MEGA at the Bistro... that was a while ago.

BMQ done May 08, SQ done June 08 with 2 stints (before and after SQ) in glorious CFB Borden - PRETC. Finished QL3 PH1 in Oct and now ATT POSTED to CFRC Vancouver working as an FM in Processing. Now I know why it took me 8 months to get in!

Hoping to get my TS/SA sometime this summer/fall, then back to CFSCE for PH2 and then put in my request for 2EW. Ottawa wouldn't be bad but the CM will make you go to 2EW at sometime in your career so it's IMHO the best choice.


----------



## LoKe (20 Feb 2009)

Finished my QL1 Phase 1 on 12 December.  Been sitting around waiting for SQ since.  Being sent back to PRETC on Monday to continue to wait, and make more money.


----------



## MikeL (20 Feb 2009)

Theres no such thing as QL1 an I don't think there ever has been. I think you meant to say your finished your BMQ.


----------



## jmlz87 (20 Feb 2009)

I think he meant QL3 PH1... but I could be wrong.

Yeah all my navy buddies had to await SQ courses, some did it in Meaford some in Valcartier. Lucky me got it done while I was on PRETC.


----------



## Kanadian-Keith (22 Feb 2009)

Hi..My Name is Keith and I'm 18 years old

I enjoy long walks and.... errr nevermind  ;D 

Seriously though, I have a few questions about this trade..

Can an 18 year old join it?
What are the requirements to joining it?
How do I go about applying?
How long does the training and other things take before I do the trade full time?
How long does one have to be in the trade?


The trade sounds really good. I get to sit infront of computer, I like figuring out things, I'm quite interested in the trade and from what I've read, it can be a fun job. I'm hoping that I can get into it.

Thanks for anyone who answers my questions. I appreciate it very much .


----------



## MikeL (22 Feb 2009)

Keith; don't expect to be hand fed this info.. if you were really interested in this trade you'd search for info about it.. search this site.. or maybe check out the Canadian Force Recruiting website, etc


----------



## Kanadian-Keith (22 Feb 2009)

I did search the site but it doesn't tell me much about requirements or age..I know to join the army you must be atleast 17 with parents permission. 

I know how to apply to the army but maybe there is a different procedure on going about this.

I thought I was able to ask questions and get answers. That is what the point of this topic is about. I don't know much, I didn't find out much, maybe I was looking in the wrong place. I came here for my questions to be answered.


----------



## George Wallace (22 Feb 2009)

Kanadian-Keith said:
			
		

> I did search the site but it doesn't tell me much about requirements or age..I know to join the army you must be atleast 17 with parents permission.
> 
> I know how to apply to the army but maybe there is a different procedure on going about this.
> 
> I thought I was able to ask questions and get answers. That is what the point of this topic is about. I don't know much, I didn't find out much, maybe I was looking in the wrong place. I came here for my questions to be answered.



Your questions have been answered.  You just haven't read them yet.


----------



## Kanadian-Keith (22 Feb 2009)

I'll have to look through this topic to find my answers. I hope I can find them.


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Feb 2009)

Kanadian-Keith said:
			
		

> I'll have to look through this topic to find my answers. I hope I can find them.



Don't just go through this topic, Keith.  Also look through the recruiting and medical threads as well.  As a hint, the most commonly asked questions (and other good info) are usually "stickied" at the top of each sub-thread.


----------



## MikeL (22 Feb 2009)

Kanadian-Keith said:
			
		

> I did search the site but it doesn't tell me much about requirements or age..I know to join the army you must be atleast 17 with parents permission.
> 
> I know how to apply to the army but maybe there is a different procedure on going about this.
> 
> I thought I was able to ask questions and get answers. That is what the point of this topic is about. I don't know much, I didn't find out much, maybe I was looking in the wrong place. I came here for my questions to be answered.



CF Recruiting site
http://www.forces.ca/html/communicatorresearchoperator_reg_en.aspx
Also; calling/visiting your nearest Recruiting Centre would be good aswell.

An what I find after doing a search... only took a couple minutes to search through the threads an find some good ones with info.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78481.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/45501.0.html - this the link to page one of this thread


----------



## jmlz87 (22 Feb 2009)

Just to add to that,

If you want information on the COMM RSCH trade, the only information authorized to be given out is whats on the forces.ca website. You can try to talk to a 291'er about it, but you'll get only as far as I did, and that was a lot of "... i can't talk about that".

Good luck with the application process.


----------



## Kanadian-Keith (22 Feb 2009)

I will take everyone's advice. Thank you all for your help . Throughout the reading I did..I found some terms I didn't know. I'll have to look around for a topic of terms for Research Comm.


----------



## Olmstead (22 Mar 2009)

Hey,I just Finished the new BMQ today.

Im a future Comm research i was wondering
what should i do to prepare myself for the course (QL3)
And my SQ that will be this summer.
Any tips would be most appreciated 

Thanks!


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## jmlz87 (23 Mar 2009)

Olmstead said:
			
		

> Hey,I just Finished the new BMQ today.
> 
> Im a future Comm research i was wondering
> what should i do to prepare myself for the course (QL3)
> ...



Hey Olmstead,

When you get to PRETC if they haven't set up a concurrent Math tutorial (for POET and Comm Rsch) session like they started when I was there, get a hold of the Math 1030 booklet, and practice. You are required to get at least 70% on the test to continue on (it's a PO check). Other than that, you can't really work on much as the course material is all in Kingston, and my course had no problem picking up the infomation in class (remember coffee or RedBulls down in the canteen) good luck! Soon you'll be done QL3 phase 1 and on EWAT.


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## Olmstead (23 Mar 2009)

Thanks for the info.
But where can i get these Math books...
Im Actually French so..I will need lots of practice..Since im guessing all the term names are not actually the same

Thanks once more!


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## jmlz87 (23 Mar 2009)

Olmstead said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info.
> But where can i get these Math books...
> Im Actually French so..I will need lots of practice..Since im guessing all the term names are not actually the same
> 
> Thanks once more!



Depends what happens. Where are you right now? The day after grad in St Jean I was shipped via van to CFB Borden and put on Post-Recruit Education and Training Centre (PRETC). I have heard rumors that CFB Kingston will be taking care of PAT platoon soon, but I don't know if this has become a reality yet. Let me know where you end up, and I can suggest who to talk to reference this.


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## Olmstead (24 Mar 2009)

Right now i am currently in the reserves..And i am with 763 comms
So im guessing its quite different my sq is in meaford...and after that..I should 
Be doing drive wheel THEN QL3.


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## 5parta (25 Mar 2009)

Hi I have a question about the Maths contents of the training. How heavy is the maths?  Are we talking something like Laplace equations, fast fourier transforms, how to calculate inductance for a radio part, etc?

Thanks


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## Mithras (25 Mar 2009)

5parta said:
			
		

> Hi I have a question about the Maths contents of the training. How heavy is the maths?  Are we talking something like Laplace equations, fast fourier transforms, how to calculate inductance for a radio part, etc?
> 
> Thanks



Don't worry about the math, it's Grade 12 level at the most and we don't even use it.


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## lateralus (5 May 2009)

Anyone have any idea how long a 291'er can expect to stay in PRETC after BMQ these days? I'm wondering how many courses they are running this year or next year.


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## vector1 (6 May 2009)

depends...you will need to do your sq first,and phase1 runs about every 2 months,so if everything lines up right for you about a month on pretc


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## Gimpy42 (6 May 2009)

To start the course,
You dont need your SQ before phase 1 ... but that would be benefit to you if you take it before ( position avalable between your phase 1 and phase 2 Would be better)

Donht think being in phase 1 juste a month after your bmq but more 3 ... pretc admin is very long


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## jmlz87 (14 May 2009)

Agreed with below.

You don't need SQ prior to Phase 1, but it's more than beneficial.

Remember after Ph1, go do French language training if it's offered!


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## reallylongnickname (4 Jun 2009)

Im interested in comm research op in the reserves. I'm wondering how applicable this trade is to civilian IT work? 

Ever known anyone that has left the armed forces and walked into a good paying civilian IT job? 

I like the fact that this trade is in all 3 branches of armed forces, because Im hoping for opportunities to travel. However from what I understand, it isn't computer related. It is more electronics. True or false?

I should add that I'm also interested in Sig Ops. That trade is appears more computer related, but it is only in the army branch. I'm looking for opportunities to travel. If anyone can comment on this, that would be great. thx.


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## Brasidas (4 Jun 2009)

reallylongnickname said:
			
		

> Im interested in comm research op in the reserves. I'm wondering how applicable this trade is to civilian IT work?



Not comm research, not touching this one.

On a related note, I know reservist sig ops who used to be comm research guys. Try to talk to both trades (in person) as much as you can and try to avoid the hassle of a transfer after the fact.



> Ever known anyone that has left the armed forces and walked into a good paying civilian IT job?



Sure.



> I like the fact that this trade is in all 3 branches of armed forces, because Im hoping for opportunities to travel. However from what I understand, it isn't computer related. It is more electronics. True or false?
> 
> I should add that I'm also interested in Sig Ops. That trade is appears more computer related, but it is only in the army branch. I'm looking for opportunities to travel. If anyone can comment on this, that would be great. thx.



Sig op more computer-related than comm research? Nope. I know sig ops whose jobs are pretty computer-related, but for what you might be doing at a reservist outfit? Unless you call troubleshooting CI's computer-related, I'd say not.

Your 3's will feature typing and and a week full of "this is a mouse. It's a pointing device used along with a keyboard to input information into a computer."

I'm not saying don't be a sig op, but go to your local unit and talk to folks and learn about the job. It's got a techie angle, most of the satisfied sig ops I know are rather geeky, but to say it's a computer-related trade is a misnomer.

Check out truck, hook up to generator trailer, drive to location. Figure out where everything's going to go. Back up truck, drop trailer. Site truck. Set up whip antenna, establish communications if you can. Fire up generator. Set up better antennas. Tear everything down. Rinse, repeat.

EDIT: A sig op related misnomer you may have read off the job description: "Manage and administer local area networks (LANs) and local distribution networks". The term LAN doesn't mean what you think it does here. It's talking about a sort of an interface system we use within our vehicles. It has zip to do with PCs and ethernet cards.


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## meni0n (4 Jun 2009)

Unless you live in Kingston, you cannot be a reserve comm research. If you want opportunities to travel, then the Reg Force is more suitable for you as there aren't that many opportunities in the reserves, especially for newly trained people. The purple trade thing is Reg Force only. Most of the IT stuff is found in the Reg Force and not the reserves.


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## Brasidas (4 Jun 2009)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Unless you live in Kingston, you cannot be a reserve comm research.



Or Ottawa.

Ironicly had a buddy named Kingston who was reserve comm research from there.

She CT'd to reg force, but at least as of last year they were still hiring reserve comm research there.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2009)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> EDIT: A sig op related misnomer you may have read off the job description: "Manage and administer local area networks (LANs) and local distribution networks". The term LAN doesn't mean what you think it does here. It's talking about a sort of an interface system we use within our vehicles. It has zip to do with PCs and ethernet cards.



Have you seen the latest upgrades to tactical radio networks? ATHENE or the new EPLRS system? Everything now is going to be moving to IPv4 (and when the Army catches up to the real world, IPv6). SigOps will run TACNET, EPLRS, ATHENE, etc. At the reservist level, you'd be hard-pressed to find that newer kit, however. Most units will make you out to be a NCCIS monkey.... pretty much only good to JSR on callout.


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## Brasidas (5 Jun 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Have you seen the latest upgrades to tactical radio networks? ATHENE or the new EPLRS system? Everything now is going to be moving to IPv4 (and when the Army catches up to the real world, IPv6). SigOps will run TACNET, EPLRS, ATHENE, etc. At the reservist level, you'd be hard-pressed to find that newer kit, however. Most units will make you out to be a NCCIS monkey.... pretty much only good to JSR on callout.



He's coming from the street, possibly gotten a song and dance from a class B recruiter on a parade night at his comm reserve squadron, and believes that a reserve sig op's going to be doing a computer-related trade.

I've seen some unit recruiters that were pretty ineffective in providing clear information to folks before. Dealt with one firsthand when I got back in.

What he may or may not be exposed to during a deployment or longterm class B is relevant to him, but he should be aware that as a QL3/5 class A reservist he's probably not going to be administering anything resembling a conventional LAN.

The misnomer is the term "LAN". It's a valid term within C&E, and dealing with LANs and LDNs is nothing to sneaze at, but the layman reading the quoted point is going to think resetting schmucks' forgotten passwords.


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## BlueOne (5 Jun 2009)

I've applied as a Communication Researh Operator 1 month ago and I am qualified for it as my recruiter said.

I can't wait for the BMQ to start, I've did it 10 years ago and I just loved it. (Had to release for a personal reason: death in near family...) 

I promised the "Adjudant Demers" (in french) that I would come back one day and this time, nothing is gonna stop me!


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## dustinm (20 Jul 2009)

Could anyone (of either Communicator Research or Sig Op, though preferably the former since that's what my application is for) tell me if there are any diplomas or degree programs that would be applicable to the work of a Comm Research operator? 

I'd like to earn a degree and/or a diploma while I'm in (obviously it'll take several years part time for both), and I know the Tuition Reimbursement policy requires it to be in line with the Operator's job, or otherwise in the interests of the CF. 

I'm particularly interested in earning a Bachelor's degree of somesort, but I don't think there's any in Telecommunications or whatever else would be most applicable to someone in Comms Research. 

Any recommendations?


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## meni0n (20 Jul 2009)

Neo, don't worry about it being in the same field too much. It is not too strictly enforced and if you write a viable reason for taking a particular program there would be no problem in taking it. As a Sig Op I got a business diploma and in process of getting a security management certificate, so there's the proof


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## dustinm (20 Jul 2009)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Neo, don't worry about it being in the same field too much. It is not too strictly enforced and if you write a viable reason for taking a particular program there would be no problem in taking it. As a Sig Op I got a business diploma and in process of getting a security management certificate, so there's the proof



Thanks for the info. Just what I needed to know


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## panderiz (20 Jul 2009)

Hey there just found this while I was searching for some info on this job. This is probably the best resource I could find.   I have a few questions about getting into this. It just seems perfect for me.... I just think I lack a high enough education. I am in high school finishing (hopefully) my last year and I am taking grade 11 college mathematics. I never have been so good in terms of working in school because I've usually known what they teach so I tend to slack off. If I just get like 60% on my final mark would I still be even considered if I applied for Communications Research Operator? I would say for military grade computer skills I might be on the low end, but for a normal civilian I have heard I am amazing. From the top of my head I have easily assembled my own computers since I was roughly 15(I am 18 now), I have coded my own functioning forum using php and mysql, I can use sockets in python to make an IRC bot, I generally understand all programming languages is I look at them. I used to do a fair amount of networking/testing when I was 15 though I had to stop for a while so I dont remember how to do as much as I did before... I am running a linux distribution that is supposed to be for advanced linux users(I wouldn't say so) so I know how to navigate and find certain files in a UNIX system. So I don't know wether I meet the computer skill for this job or not but I know more then what I had posted thats for sure... Should I even try to apply for this or is my education/grades too low for me to stand much chance of getting in?


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## dustinm (20 Jul 2009)

panderiz said:
			
		

> Hey there just found this while I was searching for some info on this job. This is probably the best resource I could find.   I have a few questions about getting into this. It just seems perfect for me.... I just think I lack a high enough education. I am in high school finishing (hopefully) my last year and I am taking grade 11 college mathematics. I never have been so good in terms of working in school because I've usually known what they teach so I tend to slack off. If I just get like 60% on my final mark would I still be even considered if I applied for Communications Research Operator? I would say for military grade computer skills I might be on the low end, but for a normal civilian I have heard I am amazing. From the top of my head I have easily assembled my own computers since I was roughly 15(I am 18 now), I have coded my own functioning forum using php and mysql, I can use sockets in python to make an IRC bot, I generally understand all programming languages is I look at them. I used to do a fair amount of networking/testing when I was 15 though I had to stop for a while so I dont remember how to do as much as I did before... I am running a linux distribution that is supposed to be for advanced linux users(I wouldn't say so) so I know how to navigate and find certain files in a UNIX system. So I don't know wether I meet the computer skill for this job or not but I know more then what I had posted thats for sure... Should I even try to apply for this or is my education/grades too low for me to stand much chance of getting in?



According to my recruiter, Comm Research requires your Grade 10, with a Recommendation for (Grade 12?) Physics and Math. Because I have Grade 12 College Math but no Physics that I was between a "Satisfactory" and "Ideal" candidate. Your mileage may vary.

In addition, the chart I received from the Recruiter that lists job requirements says under "Other Req[uirements] and Notes" says "w/ Strong Math Background."


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## panderiz (20 Jul 2009)

I was wondering about the marks because since about grade 7 I was being pressured to choose a career... We all know at that age most of us don't know what we want to me... Hell I didn't even own a computer at that time. So during high school I made some not so smart decisions and slacked off alot so my grades suffered and up until this year(go figure my last year hopefully) I actually have a goal in mind for a high mark. I plan on graduating before I join the military though so I will have my credits and what not... But would a 60% be good enough for me to be considered for this? I REALLY want to enroll in this position since on the job explorer it seemed like what I wanted as well as from the video.


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## aesop081 (23 Jul 2009)

panderiz said:
			
		

> But would a 60% be good enough for me to be considered for this?



Kid ,why don't you just apply and see what happens. Applying increases you chances of being accepted by 100%.


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## Tweedledum (23 Jul 2009)

Hi, I picked up an app to join the forces the other day, ATIST or LCIS. I told him what I wanted to do and the recruiter asked me to consider this as a career in the military instead. As he explained it, these guys work with networking instead of repairing them like ATIST or LCIS. Which sounds like what I really want to do.

  I have a background in math 12 and physics. neither are stellar due to the fact I was an idiot who didn't take high school seriously. But am sure I could past any test given.

 Here are my questions
1. How would you rate this as a life long career? (just a stepping stone to another? If so, what)
2. Advanced tech. (Designing the new tech, or just being very resourceful with the old?)
3. Job satisfaction. (Does it leave you overwhelmed, or wishing for more?)

  As I understand there is security with this job, so Ill pose my next question carefully.

4. Will I get to work with other Comm Rsch Ops throughout my career (besides training?) Or will I mostly be alone? (I'd like to work with others, not be alone)

 If any of those questions pose a threat, feel free not to say anything and rebuke away.

*edited to remove a useless question*


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## Tempestshade (23 Jul 2009)

*Warning: Slightly off-topic*


You guys have such great recruiting centers that they actually tell you what your trade is involved in when you ask, and that if they believe you might be better at another trade they recommend it.


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## dustinm (23 Jul 2009)

Tweedledum said:
			
		

> Hi, I picked up an app to join the forces the other day, ATIST or LCIS. I told him what I wanted to do and the recruiter asked me to consider this as a career in the military instead. As he explained it, these guys work with networking instead of repairing them like ATIST or LCIS. Which sounds like what I really want to do.
> 
> I have a background in math 12 and physics. neither are stellar due to the fact I was an idiot who didn't take high school seriously. But am sure I could past any test given.
> 
> ...



I'll point you towards this thread: http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/45501.0 This guy is a serving Comm Research Operator and that thread can answer all four of your questions.


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## Tweedledum (23 Jul 2009)

You just linked me to the first page of this thread. Did you mean to send me elsewhere? If not, epic fail buddy.


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## dustinm (23 Jul 2009)

Tweedledum said:
			
		

> You just linked me to the first page of this thread. Did you mean to send me elsewhere? If not, epic fail buddy.



Ah, I apologize; I didn't realize I had linked you back to this thread, as I was going on a Google search. But yes, somewhere in the 13 pages here are answers to all of your questions.


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## aesop081 (23 Jul 2009)

Tweedledum said:
			
		

> epic fail buddy.



He was trying to help you so take your attitude somewhere else.


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## Tweedledum (23 Jul 2009)

Thanks for the help Neo Cortex. Ill take some of my questions as answered. 

 this last one may sound strange but. Is there room ideas in this field? or is it strictly do as your told.

 @ CDN Aviator     it was a joke. sorry it didn't go over too well. He did help me out


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## 2501 (6 Sep 2009)

This is the most relevant thread to my question. I am interested in Comm Research in the Reserves (Ottawa).

I spoke to my local Signals recruiter about becoming a Signals Officer but I mentioned I was very interested in working with the actual systems. He suggested Communicator Research Operator, he talk to me about it for a while and it really seems to be what I want to do.

I am a 3rd year information technology student at Carleton University and am fairly interested with working with the CSE after I graduate, so my question is this, would being a comm researcher in the reserves help with my application? I realize that the experience would be a huge asset, but more of an asset then a Signals Officer?

My other question is by having a degree do I have any advantage being an NCM? Such as the selection process or promotion?

My final question relates to the previous. If I chose to join the regular forces as an officer in a few years, what is the process or plan for someone who already holds a degree. (A link would work fine).

Thanks for the help, I plan on seeing my recruiter again next week.


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## Coryray (19 Apr 2010)

Hello ,

I am thinking about joining the CF as comms research if I can. I am currently engaged and live in Ottawa. My fiancee is a bit worried because she 
has no idea what the process will be. From what we understand if chosen I will have to attend BMQ which I think is in St jean?? After that I also think I will have to go 
to Kingston. Than after that I have no clue what happens. For those who have joined Comms Research what was the process. during BMQ does one have weekends off or no? What about when in kingston? After kingston what happens ? and where are you posted when finished kingston?

Thanks for your help 
She is just worried she will never see me , and its causing some hesitation with her.


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## stealthylizard (19 Apr 2010)

You should get some weekends off in St. Jean after week 4.  How many you get depends on the overall general performance of the course you are on.  The "weekends" questions has been repeatedly asked and a simple search would have answered that one.  It would be about the same in Kingston, or any other "trades training" course.  There is also some information on comms research that can be found with the search function.


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## ltgrenier (15 Jun 2011)

Hi,

Bringing an old thread alive, I'm not sure if there's still someone to answer my questions, but I'll try it anyway!

- Would you qualify the tasks as "repetitive" for the new recruits beginning in the trade? Can you learn something new everyday?

- Does COMM RSCH only work with audio or "electronic communications" also include all kind of communicating device and media (video, internet forums/websites, cellphones, etc)?

- Do you have sea duties (cleaning, painting, etc) when you are assigned to a ship? Are the shifts 7-5, 12-12 or something else (at sea)?

Thanks for your answer(s). And no, I couldn't find my answers through the search button!


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## PuckChaser (16 Jun 2011)

1) Depends on where you go, with any trade things can be repetitive.

2) Much of the trade is classified, I doubt you'll get any answers to these types of specific questions.

3) I'm not Navy, but I'm sure if you're aboard ship everyone pitches in. A buddy of mine is a 291er who's been to sea, I can ask for you.


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## ltgrenier (16 Jun 2011)

Thanks for the answer. I'll take any infos your friend has to share.


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## Robert0288 (16 Jun 2011)

- Does COMM RSCH only work with audio or "electronic communications" also include all kind of communicating device and media (video, internet forums/websites, cellphones, etc)?

Personally I've been searching the internet high and low for anything, all I've gotten was "it deals with signals" and "you'll see on your QL3" (2 more weeks. ;D)    I have no idea how accurate this actually is in relation to the trade, but look up the history of CFS Leitrim.


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## ltgrenier (16 Jun 2011)

History of Leitrim was very interesting, thanks.


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## TheNewt (13 Sep 2011)

I apologize if this was answered elsewhere. If so please point me in that direction.

This may be a silly civilian question but here it goes:

I noticed in Comm Research that there is no direct officer equivalent, i.e. Communicator Research "Officer". So how does the officer ranks work for this trade? Do Comm Research Operators deal with Int Officers or Signal Officers for the overall tasks and running of that trade? Sorry if my wording is not quite right, I don't quite understand the nuances of the roles of senior NCMs, e.g. WO, vs Officers.

I am also going to assume that many/some people in the trade have their degree or obtain one during their years of service. Do they usually stay in the trade or do they apply to become officers? If so, where do they usually go?

My other thought is that maybe the trade is interesting and diverse enough, along with the spec pay, that there is no real need or desire by most to change trades in order to become an officer. 

Thank you in advance

TheNewt


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## aesop081 (13 Sep 2011)

TheNewt said:
			
		

> I noticed in Comm Research that there is no direct officer equivalent, i.e. Communicator Research "Officer".



Not the only trade like that, no big deal.



> Do Comm Research Operators deal with Int Officers or Signal Officers for the overall tasks and running of that trade?



Depends where they are employed. The running of the trade (career management for example) itself is not done by officers.


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## PuckChaser (13 Sep 2011)

Signal Officers are posted to Letrim or 21 EW Regt get the required training to manage Comm Rsch operators in their day to day operations. Int Officers traditionally do not. There are no officer ranks for Comm Rsch.


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## aesop081 (13 Sep 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Signal Officers are posted to Letrim or 21 EW Regt get the required training to manage Comm Rsch operators in their day to day operations.



Remember that 21 and Leitrim are not the only place 291ers are posted to. In some places, as far as i was shown, they work for other officer trades than CELE. CFEWC is one of them.


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## PuckChaser (13 Sep 2011)

Majority are going to be at those 2 places though, I mean I could sit and list all of their possible postings but he's not gonna see those right out of CFSCE.


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## Goose15 (29 Jan 2014)

TheNewt said:
			
		

> I noticed in Comm Research that there is no direct officer equivalent, i.e. Communicator Research "Officer".





			
				aesop081 said:
			
		

> Not the only trade like that, no big deal.



I understand that there are multiple occupations in the CAF that have no officer equivalent and that this is not a problem. I am interested though: is there a "natural path" for 291ers who do CFR?


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2014)

Goose15 said:
			
		

> I am interested though: is there a "natural path" for 291ers who do CFR?



I suppose one could CFR to Sig O or some other related Trade, but not as a Comms Research officer (which as has been pointed out, does not exist).   There is no "natural path".


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## dapaterson (29 Jan 2014)

More likely Int Officer.  Frankly, the Comms Researchers should be in the Int branch to begin with.


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## Goose15 (29 Jan 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I suppose one could CFR to Sig O or some other related Trade, but not as a Comms Research officer (which as has been pointed out, does not exist).   There is no "natural path".



Sig O? Okay, fair enough. And I understand there is not a Comms Research Officer occupation, that is why I used the quotations because I know there is not a 100% direct path.


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## Goose15 (29 Jan 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> More likely Int Officer.  Frankly, the Comms Researchers should be in the Int branch to begin with.



Okay that makes good sense.
Interesting, I was unaware it was not in that branch.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Jan 2014)

Goose15 said:
			
		

> Okay that makes good sense.
> Interesting, I was unaware it was not in that branch.



What capbadge do you wear?  That should be a clue.


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## Goose15 (29 Jan 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What capbadge do you wear?  That should be a clue.



I am not in the CAF. As per my profile I am an applicant. I see now that 291 is a part of the C&E Branch.


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## PuckChaser (29 Jan 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I suppose one could CFR to Sig O or some other related Trade, but not as a Comms Research officer (which as has been pointed out, does not exist).   There is no "natural path".



Sig O's do the lions share of the work with Comms Rsch pers, so it is more a "natural path" than Int O.


----------



## Goose15 (29 Jan 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Sig O's do the lions share of the work with Comms Rsch pers, so it is more a "natural path" than Int O.



Thanks for the info PuckChaser


----------



## Drag (2 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Sig O's do the lions share of the work with Comms Rsch pers, so it is more a "natural path" than Int O.



Sigs and CELE (Air) are the main officer trades associated with the Comms Rsrch trade.

dapaterson,

Having worked in the community, I do not agree that 291ers more naturally belong to the Int branch.  Only a small portion of them do analytic work normally associated with the Int branch, the technical "nexus" is much stronger with their daily tasks and that is the reason they belong to the C&E branch.


----------



## Goose15 (2 Feb 2014)

D3 said:
			
		

> Having worked in the community, I do not agree that 291ers more naturally belong to the Int branch.  Only a small portion of them do analytic work normally associated with the Int branch, the technical "nexus" is much stronger with their daily tasks and that is the reason they belong to the C&E branch.



Would you be able to expand on the highlighted statement? I was under the impression that 291 was signals intelligence. Are you saying due to it being SIGINT as oppose to HUMINT that is why they are more associated with C&E? Or did you mean something entirely different?


----------



## Robert0288 (2 Feb 2014)

> Are you saying due to it being SIGINT as oppose to HUMINT that is why they are more associated with C&E?


  
I think the keyword there is Signals.  Which would fall under the C&E branch.


----------



## Goose15 (2 Feb 2014)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I think the keyword there is Signals.  Which would fall under the C&E branch.



Fair enough. Just wanted to be sure I was on the same page  :salut:


----------



## George Wallace (2 Feb 2014)

Goose15 said:
			
		

> Would you be able to expand on the highlighted statement? I was under the impression that 291 was signals intelligence. Are you saying due to it being SIGINT as oppose to HUMINT that is why they are more associated with C&E? Or did you mean something entirely different?



Everyone is a "collector".  That does not make them INT.


----------



## Goose15 (2 Feb 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Everyone is a "collector".  That does not make them INT.



Thanks George that is much clearer.


----------



## PuckChaser (2 Feb 2014)

And not everything a 291er is going to do is SIGINT either. Plenty of other -INTs, as well as tactical EW.

George: Everyone might be a "collector", but that would imply the Comm Rsch folks do not process the information into products or actionable items, which couldn't be further from the truth.


----------



## Goose15 (2 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And not everything a 291er is going to do is SIGINT either. Plenty of other -INTs, as well as tactical EW.



Oh I did not realize the tactical EW was a different type of Int. Is that a Combat Int classification?




			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Everyone might be a "collector", but that would imply the Comm Rsch folks do not process the information into products or actionable items, which couldn't be further from the truth.


That is very cool to hear.


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## PuckChaser (2 Feb 2014)

Goose15 said:
			
		

> Oh I did not realize the tactical EW was a different type of Int.



Its a giant rabbit-hole to chase down whether tactical land EW is SIGINT, or to find the line to differentiate both. Traditional definitions don't cut it anymore, and you'll find people on both sides of the fence arguing until they're blue in the face. Inside the 291 community they try to split SIGINT and EW, but I believe the Int community considers them one and the same.


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## Goose15 (2 Feb 2014)

Ah I see, that is very interesting. Thank you for the information. :salut:


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## George Wallace (2 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Its a giant rabbit-hole to chase down whether tactical land EW is SIGINT, or to find the line to differentiate both. Traditional definitions don't cut it anymore, and you'll find people on both sides of the fence arguing until they're blue in the face. Inside the 291 community they try to split SIGINT and EW, but I believe the Int community considers them one and the same.



Again; they are "Collectors".  Both SIGINT and EW are two separate types of collectors of different electronic emissions.  There are dozens of forms of collecting 'information'; SIGINT and EW are only two of them.  Collectors of information do not necessarily have to be INT, and the majority of cases they are not.


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## George Wallace (2 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And not everything a 291er is going to do is SIGINT either. Plenty of other -INTs, as well as tactical EW.
> 
> George: Everyone might be a "collector", but that would imply the Comm Rsch folks do not process the information into products or actionable items, which couldn't be further from the truth.



True.  Comm Rsch and other Sigs do collect, process, redact, and provide information for INT pers to analyse and produce INT products.   What they do pass on to INT pers is usually a minute piece of what they have found, most of it having been redacted before dissemination.   The ACE at the EW Sqn will filter out most of the very sensitive information before passing on the tiny bit that is relevant to the INT Ops.  The SIGINT and ELINT people operate the same.  The only information that is passed on is that which is "needed to know".


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## Drag (2 Feb 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Its a giant rabbit-hole to chase down whether tactical land EW is SIGINT, or to find the line to differentiate both. Traditional definitions don't cut it anymore, and you'll find people on both sides of the fence arguing until they're blue in the face. Inside the 291 community they try to split SIGINT and EW, but I believe the Int community considers them one and the same.



Tactical EW a d SIGINT are definitely not the same thing.  Tactical EW is an ACT function while SIGINT is a SENSE function.  Tactical EX involves things like ECM (jamming) and ECCM (counters to jamming) which are definitely not intelligence functions.

I know that some in the Int Branch consider them  but that is due to the long standing ambitions in the Int Branch to take over SIGINT, something they have not been successful at.


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## George Wallace (2 Feb 2014)

D3 said:
			
		

> Tactical EW a d SIGINT are definitely not the same thing.  Tactical EW is an ACT function while SIGINT is a SENSE function.  Tactical EX involves things like ECM (jamming) and ECCM (counters to jamming) which are definitely not intelligence functions.
> 
> I know that some in the Int Branch consider them  but that is due to the long standing ambitions in the Int Branch to take over SIGINT, something they have not been successful at.



EW also does detection and DF.  I think your impression of ambitions of the INT Branch to absorb EW is a little on the paranoid side.


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## Drag (2 Feb 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> EW also does detection and DF.  I think your impression of ambitions of the INT Branch to absorb EW is a little on the paranoid side.



I would classify detection and DF as surveillance and reconnaissance.  The Int Branch tried to take over the 291 trade with a brain child called "Defence Intelligence Career Fields" or word to that effect back in 2007/2008 and failed after resistance from the C&E Branch,


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## George Wallace (2 Feb 2014)

There are a lot of "Good Idea Faeries" in the CAF.  Thankfully, not all their ideas are followed through on after some deliberation.   ;D

Of course, don't tell that to the Met Techs.    >


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