# Graduate student in Naval reserve ?



## Antoine (11 Dec 2008)

Hi All,

After working several years in industry, I've decided 4 years ago to change field by doing an other graduate degree (MSc in Chem, UBC). I would like to apply to the MARS program (reserve) , however our program goes all over the year but I believe I can ask for summer "exemption". I'm now 38 years old, time flies fast !!!!

Anyone is experiencing a similar situation?

Many thanks!


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## Nfld Sapper (12 Dec 2008)

Why the poll?


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## Ex-Dragoon (12 Dec 2008)

Seeing how the poll has no useful purpose I have locked it.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## Snakedoc (12 Dec 2008)

Well I don't know about being called an 'it' but I'll give my $0.02

Not that different from being an undergrad except that you'll have less time to commit on a weekly basis (ie one night versus two) and exercises may have to be squeezed in between studying or writing papers.  It's tight but definitely doable.  In an all year program you are going to have to make time in order to do training, which may mean prolonging graduation or else doing your MARS training after graduation.  The extra cash definitely helps with expensive grad school fees though!


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## DONT_PANIC (12 Dec 2008)

I think I'd agree about the problems of time commitments.  I've seen people in grad school parade/go on exercise regularily, though they admitted that it really broke their brain after, trying cope.  I've also seen full time law students do the same.  Myself, I'm starting grad school part time, with full time job and parading each week (I hope), so it can be done (again, I hope).  Ultimately, you will need to strike a balance between what you feel your responsibilities/desires are.  If you want to advance as a MARS officer, that will take time, effort and studying. That will likely involve time away from studies; whether or not that impacts your studies, is up to you to decide.  I know some universities require grad students that are receiving additional funding to agree not to commit more than X number of hours to work outside university each week, so that may also influence your progress.  So, like so many answers, I'd say "that really depends".


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## MARS (12 Dec 2008)

Antione

A quick question: when do you foresee yourself being able to secure a solid, 3-4 month block of time away from your studies to undertake your initial basic officer training?  
That will be somewhat key to your experience as it (the training) will provide you with some basic  leadership experience, which will enable you to be promoted upon completion, and if you return to your studies following the first 4 month block, it will make you of more value to your NRD and the experience will be more enjoyable for you.  

MARS


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## Antoine (12 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the quick reply!

Sorry for the poll, my mistake!

I will double check with my university administration but ideally I would like to do the summer trainings (if I get selected of course). On the other hand, I am ready to take one year off to complete the training. I realize that by being involve in the reserve, it will prolong my time in grad school but that is not a problem for me.

I am really impress by the level of commitment that you guys are able to achieve in your civil and military career, by your reply I can see it is demanding but possible!

Thanks again!


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## Antoine (16 Dec 2008)

Hi,

I ' am filling all the CF application papers, I was looking for official informations about grad student obligations and if any exception exist in regard to CF reservist. 

Until now, I haven't found anything so I'll make calls (UBC) and hopefully come back to you with this information, for benefit of any prospective reservist candidate that are grad students.

Merry Christmas (Snowing here in Vancouver !!!) and happy new year!


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## Snakedoc (17 Dec 2008)

I recall that certain universities have official agreements with the CF through the Canadian Forces Liason Council to accomodate or support students.  Often specific faculties may be unaware of these agreements so knowing of these agreements at the university wide level may help but not be a guarantee to getting time off for training.  This site may prove useful:

http://www.cflc-clfc.forces.gc.ca/ees-pae/rr/srr-rer/index-eng.asp


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## Antoine (17 Dec 2008)

Right on!!

I've found good tips and informations in the web site you've suggested me, thanks Snakedoc!

I've referees that could attest about my leadership skill and interrelationship skills as a Teaching Assistant in undergraduate labs, but they know me from the past 4 years and half, to bad that CF is asking for referees that have known me for at least 5 consecutive years!

Still snowing here (Vancouver), I should have taken my cross-country ski when 5 years ago I've decided to move from Montreal to Vancouver.

I love snow anyway !!!!


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## Snakedoc (18 Dec 2008)

Glad to help, good luck with the application!


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## Antoine (12 Feb 2009)

Hi All,

This topic could be moved to 'the Recruiting Office' or 'Personal Stories' section and I realize that a lot have been said about CFAT. However, I would like to add a comment about CFAT for graduate students in 'soft' sciences as I am. I've been way too confident about the test. They told me that I've passed for MARS officer candidature, but I wasn't happy at all about my performance. So either, I am becoming old and slow thinker (possible) or I should have done some fast thinking and basic math (no doubt)....not only the night before (not smart). Cheers !


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## jp86 (13 Feb 2009)

I'm a full-time law student, and joining the army reserve.  I've gotten quite a few quizzical looks about that - I didn't think it was a strange thing to do, but there's definitely been (spoken and unspoken) a reaction of "Why on earth does a lawyer want to join the army?"

I wonder if this is common.


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## Snakedoc (13 Feb 2009)

jp86 said:
			
		

> I'm a full-time law student, and joining the army reserve.  I've gotten quite a few quizzical looks about that - I didn't think it was a strange thing to do, but there's definitely been (spoken and unspoken) a reaction of "Why on earth does a lawyer want to join the army?"
> 
> I wonder if this is common.



I don't think so at all.  I know many full time MBA and medical students, in addition to lawyers, who are members of the naval reserve.  I think this speaks to the wide skillset and additional intellectual/human capital available in the reserves in addition to the military skillset we acquire.

Edit: If you want avoid the quizzical looks, you can always come over to the better looking, more educated side of the CF..the NAVY  ;D


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## George Wallace (13 Feb 2009)

jp86 said:
			
		

> I'm a full-time law student, and joining the army reserve.  I've gotten quite a few quizzical looks about that - I didn't think it was a strange thing to do, but there's definitely been (spoken and unspoken) a reaction of "Why on earth does a lawyer want to join the army?"
> 
> I wonder if this is common.



We just enrolled a new member who has a Law Degree from Oxford, a Law Degree from Harvard, and a Law Degree from Yale.  I don't think a Law Degree would be considered any different than any other Degree.  Many Professionals join the Reserves, many for a wide range of reasons.   Many for a contrast to their "Day Job".  Many of these people don't necessarily want to be Lawyers, Administrators, etc. in the Reserves, as they do that on a daily basis in their day job.


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## Monsoon (13 Feb 2009)

jp86 said:
			
		

> I'm a full-time law student, and joining the army reserve.  I've gotten quite a few quizzical looks about that - I didn't think it was a strange thing to do, but there's definitely been (spoken and unspoken) a reaction of "Why on earth does a lawyer want to join the army?"
> 
> I wonder if this is common.



At my unit alone we've had four law students join us in the past couple of years. They generally do pretty well on their courses, and since they're moving on to civilian legal careers they actually continue to parade at the unit class A once they're done rather than going onto class B and disappearing. In the Naval Reserve it's not at all uncommon in cities that have law schools.


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## Antoine (13 Feb 2009)

Glad to hear that "Many of these people don't necessarily want to be Lawyers, Administrators, etc. in the Reserves, as they do that on a daily basis in their day job." It works for me !

Being in grad school, I've got many quizzical looks about joining the reserve and my PI won't be pleased with it. It is going to make my PhD a bit more challenging and longer. In addition, I don't join the reserve for money as I could make money by using my professional qualifications. However,if the NAVY believes that I can be useful to them as an officer, that I'll learn new skills in return, and that my future colleagues will be happy with me, well that is great!

My understanding of the military is limited by my narrow outsider perspective, but I found useful the link gave above by Snakedoc. Of course, I am reading more about the reserve from other sources. Finally, if the NAVY hasn't kept my candidature, at least from now, I've realized its importance and I will advocate for it. But first, less quizzical looks around me....hopefully!


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## ltmaverick25 (14 Feb 2009)

Dont worry about it too much.  I am a grad student myself, and am also parading as a reserve MARS officer.  Im also in a year long program but ive chosen to do my thesis this term during all my coursework instead of over the summer so I can start the training sooner.  It can be a pain but its very doable and worth it.  If you are thinking of doing a PhD, get all your MARS training done first.  Do it full time.  When you are done you will be a SLt, and you can let your three years in rank build up while doing your PhD (still parading of course) but you wont have any strong need to be away for 4 months at a time after that.


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## Antoine (23 Feb 2009)

Hi Milnet members,

I believe this question could be post here as again it could apply to any scientist graduate that might serves in the reserve (NAVY in my case).

In science, we often end up in USA or Europe for one or two years for further training as post-Doc (yes, it never ends...) or to shine our CV hoping for more opportunities back in Canada. Thus, I was wondering if there is any Canadian reservist that could be sent to units in major US cities or other NATO countries (guess Germany). Anyone has heard about similar situation?


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## Neill McKay (23 Feb 2009)

Antoine said:
			
		

> Thus, I was wondering if there is any Canadian reservist that could be sent to units in major US cities or other NATO countries (guess Germany). Anyone has heard about similar situation?



I read about something along those lines recently, possibly on this site but I don't recall.  It seems to me that the UK and/or Australia were discussed.  Sorry I don't have anything more specific, but I can at least offer a strong maybe.


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## Redeye (23 Feb 2009)

There is a Memorandum of Understanding allowing Cdn Reservists to serve with UK units if they're over there working (and presumable going to school would count) for a certain period of time.  I would suspect exchanges with other friendly nations wouldn't be too difficult to investigate.



			
				N. McKay said:
			
		

> I read about something along those lines recently, possibly on this site but I don't recall.  It seems to me that the UK and/or Australia were discussed.  Sorry I don't have anything more specific, but I can at least offer a strong maybe.


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## Snakedoc (23 Feb 2009)

I would think, however, that NAVRES or the CF in general would want you to be trade/classification qualified before allowing you to embark on a reserve exchange.. or else you arn't going to be much use to your foreign receiving unit.  Just my assumption though.


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## dapaterson (23 Feb 2009)

There have been arrangements made in the past for reservists to parade in foreign country.  There is a formal MOU with the UK for reservists to parade abroad.

Talk to your chain of command; though, as previously mentionned, the odds are not on your side if you are not yet occupationally qualified.


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## MARS (24 Feb 2009)

Canada has a Reserve Force Foreign Service Agreement with both the UK and Australia.  I just sent one of my officers to the UK for 2 years under this agreement.  Unfortunately Antoine, the previous posters are correct - you cannot take advantage of this until you are fully qualified in your chosen occupation.

Another potential hiccup with your plan: Until you are qualifed in your naval reserve occupation, you are not eligible to be Excused from Duty and Training (ED&T - a leave of absence for reservists).  In order to be absent from training and to leave the country for a period of a year, as you are suggesting you need to do, you will need to apply for ED&T.  Unfortunately, I just had to release a young and promising officer for this very reason.  Unfortunately, I could not put him on the SRR - again - because he was not yet qualified.

I am not sure what your naval reserve occupation is or when you will need to leave the country for your MA, but if there is any flexibility in the timing of your absence, plan for it after you are qualified in the Navy.  There is essentailly NO leeway until you are trained, but after that, these things become possible.

MARS


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## Antoine (24 Feb 2009)

Thanks to all of you for replying to my post,

I am just starting a PhD in chemistry so I'll be around for the next 4 to 5 years. I've applied for MARS trade and currently passing through the application process. However, I don't want the CF to put money and time in my candidature and then realize that it is not working on the long range. Anyway, if CFRC gives me the opportunity to go to NOAB, they'll tell me straight if I am going to make it or not ! (hope it will be a yes  )

Meanwhile, I hope current reservists might find some answers if they have to work abroad due to their civil jobs as it is common in our days.

Again, thanks a lot.


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## ltmaverick25 (24 Feb 2009)

I dont think reserve MARS have to do the NOAB.  I didnt have to do one when I went MARS with NAVRES.


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## Snakedoc (24 Feb 2009)

That's correct, no NOAB required for MARS officers in the NAVRES.


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## Antoine (11 Mar 2009)

Hi All,

First, thanks for all your input, I can't wait to get experiences in CF and help people too.

If I've read correctly the other threads, a final interview will be conducted by an officer board at the reserve unit to which I am applying.

Humm, sorry to turn this thread in a recruiting one.


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## ltmaverick25 (12 Mar 2009)

It depends on the unit.  The unit can do a board interview you if they wish.  My unit doesnt do that, you just do an interview with the CO after all the CFRC stuff is done.  Then they send it to NAVRES for an administrative file review.  So they just look at your file and decide weather to accept you.  Typically if you have made it that far, and your trade is not full, you will make it.

Right now Naval Int is full and they arent taking anymore across the country, however there are still way too many MARS spots open.


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## Antoine (12 Mar 2009)

Thanks again ltmaverick25 for your quick reply  

The Capt that was interviewing me was great, he told me that I've passed the interview, it was the CFRC one. Medical and PT ahead, don't know for my vision  :-\

I'm applying for MARS, but Naval Int is it the one you would like to transfer to?

I'm wondering why so many MARS open spots, I thought many young sharks were applying for it  

How well, works for me.


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## ltmaverick25 (12 Mar 2009)

I wasnt able to transfer to Naval Int because it was full but my CT to the reg force is for Int.  As for why there are many more vacancies for MARS.  I cant really say, the only thing I know for sure is that its not been as popular of a trade for new candidates and its been a tough sell.  For example, this year it looks like my unit will be picking up 5 Int officers and only 1 MARS officer.


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## Snakedoc (12 Mar 2009)

Lots of MARS positions open but not necessarily enough people to train them all! PAT platoons seem to be growing if I'm not mistaken on the Reg force side of things.


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## Antoine (12 Mar 2009)

That is interresting, recruiter and interviewer told me many times that MARS was hard with high failure rate. However, I guess that all trades are demanding, but it is true that I am a bit anxious about it but it will not stop me if I get in. My boss is the one that I'll have to convince.

I wonder if it is something that could discourage people. Also, there is a lot of information from media and CF about army and air force, but it seems from a civilian point of view that NAVY is not as well represented. Might be only me that have missed something here.

Itmaverick, I like your writting, analytical skills and you seems well educated, always polite, I agree that a forum is not the best way to 'size' someone and I am not a recruiter, but I am confident that you'll get soon in the trade of your choice.


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## MARS (12 Mar 2009)

MARS is demanding and does have a high failure rate.  During my training in '04, I saw about a 40% failure rate after MARS III and something slightly less during MARS IV.  That was pre-simulator (NABS), but during my time as a CTO at NOTC, failure rates were lower, but still significant. 

I cannot think of an officer classification in the Naval Reserve that is as remotely demanding as MARS.  MarInt is no cake-walk, but it does not require the inspirational leadership required of junior MARS Officers.  Inability to lead in a dynamic and high-tempo environment is why the majority of the failures I administered occurred.  Lots of really, really intelligent and switched-on candidates who easily (and sometimes not so easily) graspsed the fundamentals of navigation during the classroom phase.  But once in the simulator (and later, on the bridge of a ship), they found it difficult to lead their bridge teams.  Or, their understanding of navigation was not solid, and once combined with the pressure to lead and manage their team and the changing situation, it proved to be too much, they "lost the bubble" and ended up standing the Ship into danger - which is a fatal error.

The Navy suffers from what we call "Maritime Blindness" - the fact that our presence is concentrated on 2 coasts and our ships do their thing far out to sea, away from the media most of the time, so no, its not just you who is missing something.

Cheers,

MARS


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## Antoine (12 Mar 2009)

Thanks MARS for this input.

That is why I am disappointed about no NOAB for Nav Res MARS candidate as I guess it gives you more opportunities to learn about the job and them to learn about you. But I understand the cost behind the NOAB and it is probably more effective for people applying for the Regular.

I sail (LASER II) time to time with a friend. When I am the skipper and see my self already as a MARS officer, we end up in water...(Pacific sea is cold), well same when I'm windsurfing, good way to learn port and starboard  ;D


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## ltmaverick25 (12 Mar 2009)

Antoine said:
			
		

> Itmaverick, I like your writting, analytical skills and you seems well educated, always polite, I agree that a forum is not the best way to 'size' someone and I am not a recruiter, but I am confident that you'll get soon in the trade of your choice.



Dont get me wrong, I very much like the idea of being a MARS officer.  I chose it initially after all.  The only thing that gives me pause about the trade is my age and the realities of being able to go all the way with it.  If I were 21 right now, choices of trades for the reg force would be MARS all the way.


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## Antoine (12 Mar 2009)

Age seems to be of concerned in reg. forces MARS career as it was discussed in another thread. CF must have good reason for it.  ???

However, my civil point of view is that any smart guy that proves to be efficient and meet the job goal should be pushed for promotion, but here I am totally out of my lane as I am not in the military and age might be a part of the goal in a highly competitive job. 

It is of concerned as I am in my late thirty


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## TimBit (12 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Dont get me wrong, I very much like the idea of being a MARS officer.  I chose it initially after all.  The only thing that gives me pause about the trade is my age and the realities of being able to go all the way with it.  If I were 21 right now, choices of trades for the reg force would be MARS all the way.



Hey dude. If you ask me, a guy like you can still go all the way. Remember that guy Donovan? 4 ringers after 18 years? Seriously, I think it is reasonable to hope for a command after 20 years. You're a smart cookie, you'd get there. You know, MARS Officers are not like machines, notwithstanding what the establishment (and especially MARS) want you to believe. If that's what you want... well I think it's a great trade. If I did not have a wife and kid, I'd already be there right now.  :blotto:


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## Antoine (12 Mar 2009)

I agree with Timbit  :nod:

Too bad I am not a MARS officer to put more weight in this agreement, so that was my civilian  :2c:


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## ltmaverick25 (12 Mar 2009)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Hey dude. If you ask me, a guy like you can still go all the way. Remember that guy Donovan? 4 ringers after 18 years? Seriously, I think it is reasonable to hope for a command after 20 years. You're a smart cookie, you'd get there. You know, MARS Officers are not like machines, notwithstanding what the establishment (and especially MARS) want you to believe. If that's what you want... well I think it's a great trade. If I did not have a wife and kid, I'd already be there right now.  :blotto:



I appreciate your comments, but Capt Donovan is just a few years older then I am!  That hurts!  Based on what I have heard from just about every source, the navy wants its COs to be in their 40s.  That gives me only 8 years instead of 18.  

The other problem is that I dont have a wife and kids and am worried ill never rectifiy that situation if I am constantly away.  I really just wish I would have pulled my head out of my arse a decade ago, this wouldnt be a problem then!


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## Antoine (12 Mar 2009)

I understand that the guy in command has to be in top shape as a basic requirement and the huge responsibility on his shoulder. Thus fair enough if NAVY wants young and smart CO, I'm not bitter about it,....OK, not right now, it may come  :argument:

If NAVY takes me, they know my age, hopefully it will be a win-win situation, and I'll do my best. :evil:

Anyway, I hope this discussion is helping grad students that are in their late twenty to know more about Naval Res officer jobs.

Thanks again to be honest and open about all these topics.

P.S. I have modified the present post as I found my first draft was an approximation of what I wanted to say. Still an English learner.


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## Antoine (27 Mar 2009)

Hi All,

It is not related to the present topic, but since I have started this thread, I would like to thanks everyone that have replied to the present about MARS officer in naval reserve.

I got my medical results and V4, so I don't qualify for MARS. I'll contact my navy unit and discuss with them about other opportunities such as maritime intelligence. Might discuss with them about laser surgery if they think that MARS will fit me in their unit.

However, I will continue to update this thread about grad student in Naval reserve if I stick to the NAVY and if I can bring any interesting input. 

I hope that any graduate student in NAVY will continue to feed this thread with their experience, question and so on.

Cheers


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## ltmaverick25 (27 Mar 2009)

The latest I heard, Navy Int is full on the reserve side so they are not taking any more candidates this year.  I would go with the laser eye surgery and then carry on from there.  Dont let V4 stop you.


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## Antoine (1 Apr 2009)

I got the confirmation: No more Navy Int position for the next couple of incoming years in the reserve unit I was looking for (HMCS Discovery). MARS officers are still in high demand, many positions to fill and a couple of Log positions left but no many.


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