# Penny's story - Decisions to make



## Penny (30 Dec 2006)

Well, here is my story. I have been trying hard to choose the right trade and I would appreciate your feedback on this, especialy perspectives from the folks who have been in for a while. I know this is a decision that is worth putting the effort into and I am willing to do that.  I want a job that is a good fit.         

Most important to me is having a job that serves my country, where I can make a valid contribution. That means more to me than money ever could. 
Currently, as a Reserve Private, I am not happy with the unit I am in and I feel like I've hit a dead end with no possibility for advancement (but that's another story).
I want a trade that offers a lot of chance for deployment and travel.  
My strengths are: calm under high stress, works well with difficult people, always positive attitude, physically strong ( frequent gym, weights), enjoys hard work and challenges, able to organise lots of information quickly, very strong computer processing skills. 
My weaknesses: running, but I am working hard to improve that. Did well on my last express test but didn't get exempt because of the running. 

Second, I want to stay Army, go reg force, and preferably Officer through ROTP if I can. Failling that, I will remain NCM but still transfer from reserve to regular.

Trying to choose the right job fit has been the cause of many sleepless nights. I can't stay in my trade and become an officer, they will not take me because my marks in univesity are passing but not great and they only accept RMC, not civy Univ.  I have not been a great success at night school, going to lectures after working a full day-shift - I can pass but the marks are not high enough to be considered for RMC.  If I were a full-time student I know I could do better, but I can't afford it on my own and I am not eligible for a loan. If I could make it into ROTP I know I would do well at a civy U. I have already been accepted to a university for Poli Sci, but how to pay for it? Reserves will only pay for part so again the means the day-job/night school combo and I want to be a full-time student. 

I've made many trips to the recruiting office and 'm sorry but I have to say that they do not seem very helpful. They have strongly encouraged me to go MARS Officer, admitidly because they have a lot of positions to fill.  I do not want to go Navy (no offence, it's just not for me).  I have learned more by reading this site, researching the positions online, and asking friends who are in about their experiences.

I've done my homework on what trades are hot for hireing and then researched them to see which I would be most interested in. Here is the list I have come up with so far:

First choices:
Int Officer - Only 10 positions open, and I can't get into RMC with my marks so not a snowball's chance in . . .   Still, this is what I would have enjoyed most.
Logistics Officer - many positions to fill, ROTP possible, and would use my skills in administration. Sounds a bit boaring though. Would I get to deploy or be stuck on a base?
ARTY Officer - many positions to fill, ROTP possibe, An exciting job, very attractive, lots of deployment, but I hear they get physically broken early in their career and then have to OT to somthing else. 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but there are no other Officer positions that would allow me to ROTP in PoliSci at a civy U.  I would be willing to change majors to anything but engineering - so that rules out SIGS. 
which leaves:
MARS Officer - The folks at the recruiting center seem to think I would be a good fit here, but I am very reluctant to go Navy. I don't think I would be good at being at sea for long periods. I have always imagined myself working on land. Folks inthe navy tell me that the MARS Officer is the most hated person on the ship, in fact I have not heard one positive word about the position other than it is challenging.

Which brings me to NCM choices:
INT OP - Relatively open trade looking for people.  This would be my first choice except that I can't get in unless I trasfer from another occupation. I understand the reasoning - they need to have a strong foundation in the CF first. But what occupation to transfer from? I have found many answers to that question, few the same. 
MED TECH: hot to hire people as there are lots of openings. Good chances for travel as they are needed everyehere. I would really love to hear from a MED TECH about what they think of their job. If I can't get ROTP then this would be a very attractive job for me because I like helping people.  I can see where this trade would allow me to make a valid contribution and I like that. 
VEH TECH: also hot to hire right now, with lots of positions open. I enjoy working on my motorcycle and learning mechanics would have an appeal. Would there be opportunities for deployment? Is this a good place to work? Every trade has it's unique character to it, how would you describe the character of the trade and what it's like to work there?

I would appreciate any insights you may offer as well as suggestions for additional places where I can do more research.  I have been watching this site from the sidelines for a while and I know there are a lot of experienced people here. I have appreciated a lot of the advice I have found from searching the posts and will continue to do so.   :warstory:
Thanks


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## old man neri (30 Dec 2006)

What is your current trade? And have you been to the recruiting website to look at all the jobs available? 

Speaking as a reservist gunner I know of no arty officers that have been 'physically broken'. They don't do as much of the lifting and hauling that the younger gunners do, however they are in the field with us all the time and organization skills could come in handy. On the other hand there are numbers involved, I don't if you would like that.

Cheers


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## Journeyman (30 Dec 2006)

Penny said:
			
		

> *My strengths are: calm under high stress, works well with difficult people, always positive attitude...*


Maybe you should be a Mod here  ;D


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## scoutfinch (30 Dec 2006)

Just a note:  you can't go DEO INT O without a grad degree.  You can't go ROTP Civy U INT O because you do not have the requisite years of service experience.  (You can go INT O from RMC because your university time is counted as service experience.)


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## Penny (30 Dec 2006)

old man neri said:
			
		

> What is your current trade? And have you been to the recruiting website to look at all the jobs available?
> 
> Speaking as a reservist gunner I know of no arty officers that have been 'physically broken'. They don't do as much of the lifting and hauling that the younger gunners do, however they are in the field with us all the time and organization skills could come in handy. On the other hand there are numbers involved, I don't if you would like that.
> 
> Cheers



Old man Neri: Thank you for your reply.  To answer your question, I am a reserve INT OP.  I have had no luck getting my day job to release me for training and I can't advance unless I finish courses so I have to choose a career path - military or civ.   While civ pays more my heart says military.  Unfortunatly I haven't sufficient time in the reserves to go Reg Force in my trade so I am stuck. I have tried to change day jobs  but keep hitting the same wall - as soon as I tell them I need three months off to go on course the tune changes and the boss freaks. At this rate I will never advance as a reserve NCM, and I will never make my dream of becomming an officer. so I have to find an alternate route. 

As for numbers, I ldo ike math but if I go Officer I would want to continue to study Poli Sci as my major. I would be happy to throw in some math or physics courses as electives. ARTY Officer is one of the few trades that ROTP does not specify what you have to major in - As long as you get the degree.  I would of course tailor what I study to help me prep for the career as much as I can. 

As for being broken fast - that was the insight I got from a Sgt at the recruiting center, although this was not his trade.  What I have learned: You can't understand the character of a trade from the phamplet, no matter how well it is written. You have to talk to the people who are in it.


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## Penny (30 Dec 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Maybe you should be a Mod here  ;D



Good one.
 I have to say though, I have a lot of respect for this site.
 It is a very busy place and I have found good info here.


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## zipperhead_cop (30 Dec 2006)

Penny, have you tried checking with the CFLC?  They can be helpful in explaining military training to civilians and getting them on board to let you go do your courses.

http://www.cflc.forces.gc.ca/general/intro_e.asp

IMO you should stick to the Int trade if it interests you.  There is lots of opportunity there.  What is your civilian job?


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## Penny (30 Dec 2006)

SamIAm said:
			
		

> Just a note:  you can't go DEO INT O without a grad degree.  You can't go ROTP Civy U INT O because you do not have the requisite years of service experience.  (You can go INT O from RMC because your university time is counted as service experience.)



I got the DEO part, I did read that here before when searching the posts. But as for ROTP - the recruiting center has told me that they will only accept RMC students, no civy U.  And since my grades way back when I was in high school were not stellar that leaves me out of the running.  I have also finished three night classes at university but that still didn't prove that I was RMC material so it is a dead end.  I may be a reserve INT OP but I can't stay in this trade and go reg force. 

So now the question is , what trades are open to me that would find my skills useful? Where would I fit in? That is what I am tryig to research. 
I have looked up the trade sites, been to the recruiting centers, even hunted down a few career managers and sked them about the trades.  so now I am looking for words from the horses mouth. People who have been in these trades to say "X" skill is what we are looking for right now. or "X" personality traite would serve you well.  The people you would be working with tend to behave like this. . .   In order to make it here you have to be able to . . . This trade is different from other trades becsude the people here are like this.... 

wishful thinking? maybe. Perhaps it is not so cut and dry, but I had to ask.


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## Penny (30 Dec 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Penny, have you tried checking with the CFLC?  They can be helpful in explaining military training to civilians and getting them on board to let you go do your courses.
> 
> http://www.cflc.forces.gc.ca/general/intro_e.asp
> 
> IMO you should stick to the Int trade if it interests you.  There is lots of opportunity there.  What is your civilian job?



Thank you for your input Zipperhead. 

Oh the irony. I am a civ at DND, and yes I have asked CFLC for assistance. Unfortunatly they were not able to help me, but I do have to give them kudoos for trying.   I even changed my day job because I thought a different section would be more accomodating, but it all comes down to the final decision of the boss - and so far I have not found one willing to employ me and let me go for training during the summer.  The INT trade was my first pick because it fits well with what I am good at and what I enjoy, but I have hit a brick wall.   I have tried picking up an extra job thinking that maybe if I earned enough, took the leap, did my summer training and then came back and tried hunting for a new "day job" I might get ahead that way, but I am not financially ready to take that leap of faith yet.


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## zipperhead_cop (30 Dec 2006)

Penny said:
			
		

> Oh the irony. I am a civ at DND


   

What the hell is that about?  If anyone should be accommodating, it should be them?  ???
Well, you have me stumped.  There are a few Int folks on this board (Muffin, unless she has changed her screen name for one) and maybe they could give you some sort of heads up.  
Otherwise, why not go for something straight forward, like infantry, to get into the Reg force, then transfer out once you have put in your time?  If you had previous Int experience, you should be a shoe in for a position.


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## George Wallace (30 Dec 2006)

Penny is in an unusual position of being a Civil Servant, who has been seconded out to another Dept and has now returned to DND.  Although she has had some high profile jobs in the PS, CFRC does not give her any real credit for them.  She, due to the shortness of some of these positions or the importance of the position, has not had the 'seniority' in the Lve process to have time to take her INT QL3/QL4 (now the new QL5).  She was in the GG's for a summer and was lucky to be accepted into the INT Trade.  In the meantime her civilian employment has prevented her from attending the required Courses so far.  She will be able to get some of her required courses in the Spring.  What she is attempting to do is make a Career Change now, and looking for the best options.

One option she does have is to complete her QL5 and take a Class B as an INT OP, giving up her PS job, but I know she is looking for more.


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## Penny (30 Dec 2006)

Zipperhead,
that is a tac I will consider. The path may be round about but as long as it gets there right?

As for the Civ job, it is very fustrating. I have been an "permanent" civil servant for about five years now, but it doesn't help. The boss has to be willing to do without me for three months, maybe more.  And then after that it could be much longer if I accept a deployment - which is what this is all about, right? If I wasn't going to deploy what would be the point?  I have yet to find a boss willing to put up with that.  If you know of one who would  please tell him/her that there is a good AS1 looking for them.  Bilingual, Finance, Claims, word processing, overtime - you name it I got it. I just need to find that "dream boss" willing to hire me and I have about given up on it. Thats why I have been looking to go reg force, there is just no way to get ahead as a reservist unless you can juggle a lot of part time jobs and have some family or somthig to fall back on when ends don't meet up. 

Speaking of which, I have to go to work now, my other part-time job is waiting.  I'll check back tomorrow to see if there have been any other replies.


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## zipperhead_cop (30 Dec 2006)

Well, here is a simple solution:
Get hired onto Windsor Police.  You can have any time off for military training or deployment.  It's in our contract.  
See?  Too easy.   ;D


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## Penny (30 Dec 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Penny is in an unusual position of being a Civil Servant, who has been seconded out to another Dept and has now returned to DND.  Although she has had some high profile jobs in the PS, CFRC does not give her any real credit for them.  She, due to the shortness of some of these positions or the importance of the position, has not had the 'seniority' in the Lve process to have time to take her INT QL3/QL4 (now the new QL5).  She was in the GG's for a summer and was lucky to be accepted into the INT Trade.  In the meantime her civilian employment has prevented her from attending the required Courses so far.  She will be able to get some of her required courses in the Spring.  What she is attempting to do is make a Career Change now, and looking for the best options.
> 
> One option she does have is to complete her QL5 and take a Class B as an INT OP, giving up her PS job, but I know she is looking for more.


George! that you? Yes, I was lucky to get in. 
I had not heard of a QL5 this spring. Perhaps I should think of giving up my Public Service job and take the leap.  I have been working extra jobs to save up for "the leap" should that option present itself. 
Can we chat on a side line?


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## captainj (30 Dec 2006)

Penny

Who ever gave you the idea that Log O's do not get deployed. In point of fact you will be deployed big time. As one who was a Infantry MWO who commissioned into the Log occupation I can tell you it is far from boring. Besides being a Log O offers a great deal of flexibility as there is many routes to go for an officer within the branch. It also sounds like it is  up your alley so to speak. If however you are thinking Int O email me as I may be able to put you in contact with a SME.


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## gaspasser (31 Dec 2006)

I'd like to back up captj here.
Penny, from what you told us in your personal attributes, LogO or any log trade would be up your alley as far as customer service is concerned.  Suptechs and MSEOps have to have an ability to deal with customers (angry ones to easy ones)  
Did Logistics ever cross your mind?


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## niner domestic (31 Dec 2006)

Penny, who ever told you that Log Os don't go anywhere better tell my husband that.  He's always away.  He's done several year long postings in some very exotic places.  (and no guys, I'm not counting Trenton as exotic - yet!).


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## gaspasser (31 Dec 2006)

Well, there are Air Force wings and then there's Trenton.

 :rofl:


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## shadow (1 Jan 2007)

Penny,
I would like to echo the info on here about going Log O.
It sounds to me, with your attributes, it would be a wise choice.  It is a job that is extremely fulfilling (nothing happens in the army without Logisitics), has ample opportunities for deployment.  There are also many different specialties you can choose from.  The job can get very hectic and challenging, but not without reward.  From what you say (calmness under stress, excellent organizational skills), it would be an ideal job for you.  It is also very likely you can continue taking your Poli Sci degree through ROTP.
Go to the recruiting centre and ask specifically about becoming a Logisitics Officer.
Also, check out the Logisitics forum on this site, and the DND Logistics Branch website:  http://www.dnd.ca/admmat/logbranch/index_e.asp
Cheers!
Shadow


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## Penny (2 Jan 2007)

Happy New Year!  

Once again, this forum has shown that it is a great source of information.
A very big *Thank You* to Captain J; BYT Driver; Niner Domestic and Shadow.
I very much appreciate your input and I will look into LOG O.

Niner Domestic, I hope your hubby was home over the holidays, if not may he get home safe and soon.

Best wishes,
-Penny


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## niner domestic (2 Jan 2007)

Penny, thanks, yes hubby was home this year. He is wildly gesturing that I type in that you look into transport/trucking logs (I can't imagine why..LOL).  He adds that if you are so persuaded to go transport/trucking, then look into doing your CITT diploma - which apparently is a very interesting program.  He also said that many of the overseas postings/deployments have slots for fleet management type ppl.


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## Penny (2 Jan 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> . . . persuaded to go transport/trucking, then look into doing your CITT diploma



Thank-you Niner Domestic.

The overseas part sounds good.  I looked up CITT http://www.citt.ca/files/2006-2007CITTGuide_forweb.pdf
at $558.50 per course and requireing only 10 courses that is a very affordable option in both time and money. Would he say if the CITT designation is sufficient to apply DEO afterwards?  Or is this designation a "good to have" if you are applying as Reg Force NCM?


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## toughenough (2 Jan 2007)

Regarding not having grades for RMC, just to ensure no one is overlooking the obvious, at civi u, you can apply based on "mature student status", if you've been finish high school for greater than X amount of years. Does RMC not have something similar to take into account "life experience", rather than simply "school experience"?


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Jan 2007)

Just to clear up another point I think that whomever gave you the info that MARS officers were the most hated people on board must have been a disgruntled NCM. It's fair enough if you don't want to go to sea but I think the dynamics of Officer/NCM relations on our ships has been grossly misrepresented.

There are generally 4 officer classifications on board Marine Surface/Subsurface or MARS (those who navigate and direct the fighting of the ship), Marine Engineers MARE (those who direct the engineering department) Combat Systems Engineers CSE (those who direct the techies) and Supply Officer(s), Sea Log. 

MARS officers are in command of the ship (the CO is MARS) and are those who give a lot of the orders in the Ops Room and for Deck evolutions. Management skills vary and some are liked by their sailors and some are not. No different really than an Army or Air unit. My experience is that lots of NCMS dislike new junior officers of all classifications...especially those out of Military College...because they have authority yet very little practical experience.

MARS is actually a pretty good job but it does require a lot of time away from home port in the first 5-8 years of your career. 

Good luck in your career choice and progress...I hope you get what you are looking for.


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## Penny (2 Jan 2007)

toughenough said:
			
		

> Regarding not having grades for RMC, just to ensure no one is overlooking the obvious, at civi u, you can apply based on "mature student status", if you've been finish high school for greater than X amount of years. Does RMC not have something similar to take into account "life experience", rather than simply "school experience"?



Toughenough,
I have been accepted to a civilian university and I try to peck off courses at night when I am financially able. It takes a lot of my money and energy and I do not recommend it. Ideally, I would go to University full-time.
The recruiting center told me that to ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) for INT Officer you MUST go to Royal Military College, RMC and study Military Strategy, no exceptions, no civilian universities. Also,  RMC will not accept any applicant, regardless of how long ago high school was, if their marks were not well above average. [Source: Recrutiting center, recent] I believe this is due to the great demand there is to get in. The competition is very tough, and I can understand that otherwise I wouldn't be so very interested in getting in myself. 
That said, I have been going through indirect "filters" to find out about RMC (IE: the Recruiting Center) as I have not been able to acquire a direct contact to RMC so far. I have researched their website, read their literature, etc.
Bottom line: I am trying to keep a very open mind about the remaining possible avenues to reach the goal, and I do appreciate the feedback I have been receiving here. This is also a great "sounding board" because so many people here have a lot of experience.


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## niner domestic (2 Jan 2007)

Penny: Perhaps Kincanucks can clarify this, but I was under the impression that RMC still holds an MOU with Queen's for students from either institution may opt for and attend classes at either school... could you not be a Queen's student and take the Mil Strat. course? (It's been a while since I graduated from RMC but the last class I recall that had anything to do with INT was a PG class and it was not a mandatory class for the degree. I did have a few 4th year Ocdts in my PG International Relationship class with Dr. James Finan).  

As for the CITT designation, I believe hubby has mentioned that it goes on his profile as a quasi PG designation.  I'll check with him when he gets home.


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## Penny (2 Jan 2007)

Niner Domestic,
An RMC MOU with Queens?  Thank you - I will look into that.
PG designation - sorry that was over my head. (guessing: Performance Grade?)
-Penny


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## IN HOC SIGNO (3 Jan 2007)

Penny said:
			
		

> Niner Domestic,
> An RMC MOU with Queens?  Thank you - I will look into that.
> PG designation - sorry that was over my head. (guessing: Performance Grade?)
> -Penny



post graduate


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## captainj (3 Jan 2007)

Penny

Got your email a few days ago. Do me a favour email me on the DWAN only Captain Johnston at JTFC/LFCA HQ or call and I will hook you up with a SME Int O (he is now however a PAO) go figure. 

Captain J


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## kincanucks (8 Jan 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Penny: Perhaps Kincanucks can clarify this, but I was under the impression that RMC still holds an MOU with Queen's for students from either institution may opt for and attend classes at either school... could you not be a Queen's student and take the Mil Strat. course? (It's been a while since I graduated from RMC but the last class I recall that had anything to do with INT was a PG class and it was not a mandatory class for the degree. I did have a few 4th year Ocdts in my PG International Relationship class with Dr. James Finan).
> 
> As for the CITT designation, I believe hubby has mentioned that it goes on his profile as a quasi PG designation.  I'll check with him when he gets home.



No


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