# Drive by in CFB Gagetown PMQs



## Franko (29 Nov 2004)

According to friends I know there was a drive by shooting on St John Ave this past week.   

A house was shot up but no one was injured, thankfully.

Is there anyone out there who knows more details or a link about this?

Regards


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## Tpr.Orange (29 Nov 2004)

I got three buddies up there haven't heard anything about it...


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## camochick (29 Nov 2004)

There is nothing in the press about this, but I will ask my friends who live there if they have heard anything. It wouldnt suprise me.


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## Drummy (29 Nov 2004)

Hi,

The wife and I were in town that day (Friday IIRC) doing some shopping and yes it happened. It was on Mirimichi just south of the traffic circle. We got routed around the area at about 1130 but by 1300 it was pretty well over.

The mounties had two teenagers in custody, and the rifle. It wasn't a drive-by as such but I'm not sure where they were firing from. The PMQ was occupied by an RCR Corporal who arrived home just towards the end of it. One round went In/through ? the lower window sill in the living room, and another through the glass just about were his head would have been had he been home and sitting in his easy chair. His wife was at work, so no one was injured. They also shot the windows out of a car parked in the driveway next door.

No reason were given on the news broadcasts, but they were off school that day, so I guess it was just something to do. Whichever one of the parents owned the weapon should at the very least lose weapons priviledges for the rest of his/her life   :rage:   As far as the teenagers are concerned, they will probably get a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again. Another reason to do away with the Youthful Defenders Act or at least overhaul it so that it does some good.

Hope that helps a little Franko

All the best         Drummy


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## Tpr.Orange (29 Nov 2004)

ahh thanks for clearing that up


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## camochick (29 Nov 2004)

This does not all come as a surprise hehe


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## Recce41 (30 Nov 2004)

Why should the parent pay. Yes to repair the damage, but not loose his weapons right. I also took my fathers guns, yes I payed after. Kids are smart, ever my daughters were able to open my locker. I say if he screwed up, nail him. If not, a fine and pay for damages.


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## Drummy (30 Nov 2004)

Recce41 said:
			
		

> Why should the parent pay. Yes to repair the damage, but not loose his weapons right. I also took my fathers guns, yes I payed after. Kids are smart, ever my daughters were able to open my locker. I say if he screwed up, nail him. If not, a fine and pay for damages.



Recce41,

I agree with you to a point, but that weapon should have been secured, with bolt and/or ammunition stored under lock and key in a different location. I know that doesn't always happen, but just possibly, the message will start to get around that it has to happen.

All the best     Drummy


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## Franko (30 Nov 2004)

Thanks for the info Drummy......

Wonder if it was drug related? Seems as if everyone getting arrested these days on a base it's for drugs or booze offences.

Regards


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## foerestedwarrior (30 Nov 2004)

I agree, the parent should be charged, IF it was his/her fault for a lax in wepon security. If not, then the kdis should be 100% responsible.


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## Blackhorse7 (30 Nov 2004)

ABSOLUTELY, the parent(s) should be charged.   No question!   It is plain to see that the firearm was not stored as it should be, with bolt and ammo removed and under lock and key in a separate location.   It's bad enough that those kids shot up a house and could have killed someone... what if they did by accident?   What if they did on purpose?   How many soldier's kids want to be just like dad, and pretend THEY are soldiers?   I know my kids are constantly pretending to act out my job, and I am constantly telling them that it is not the way they think.   And they are not allowed to point toy guns at people EVER.

I am all for the right to have firearms, but that is a supreme right that must be exercised with supreme vigilance...


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## camochick (30 Nov 2004)

The kids in gagetown run around like wild banshies. I have seen it with my own eyes. 12 year olds on the street at 2am. It's sad. Where are parents now a days. I know most teach their kids a thing or two but who is going to take responsibility for the kids of parents who dont.


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## Franko (1 Dec 2004)

camochick said:
			
		

> The kids in gagetown run around like wild banshies.....



So tie 'em up and sort 'em out!   ;D

Regards


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## gunfan (1 Dec 2004)

There is no indication that the rifle was stored improperly. Under the Firearms act a non restricted firearm does not have to be stored separate from it's bolt. It needs to be either in a locked case, or have a trigger lock on it. If it is a restricted firearm (as in a handgun or an AR-15 (civilian C7 semi auto) it has to have a trigger lock and be in a locked storage container. 

If a youth is able to start/drive a car, I am pretty sure they could find the key to a locked storage container and/or trigger lock. 

If the parents had the firearms stored according to the law (not according to what other's think they should have been) and the youth then accessed them, how is this the parents fault? If the child was a three year old and had access I could see. As it was a teenager, they are accountable for their own actions.


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## Scratch_043 (1 Dec 2004)

but, by the law, the firearms must be stored such that the firearms can only be accessed by PAL licensed individuals (military personel exempt)

Also, teenagers are not fully 'accountable for their own actions' until the age of 18, I suggest you check your facts. Parents can still be held responsible until then.


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## camochick (1 Dec 2004)

They should be held accountable even if they are under 18. I knew what was right and wrong at a young age. These kids probably knew too. They could have killed someone.


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## Rman (1 Dec 2004)

Interesting...here in TO a gang of thug teenagers get on local bus and shoot em up and no one is talking about stringing the parents up...I guess it's just our military sensibilities towards gun control, self discipline, and just knowing the difference between right and wrong...but when you're in the wild west (west of NB that is), it's just accepted as the norm.   These delinquents should be hit as hard as the law allows...you remember Columbine (sp), what's next.


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## Scratch_043 (1 Dec 2004)

I am not saying that the kids are not accountable, I am saying that the parents are responsivle for keeping the firearms away from their kids, their failure to do this, gave the kids access to the gun, and thus, the means to commit the offense. Therefore the parents should ALSO be held responsible.


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## 48Highlander (1 Dec 2004)

Right so if someone breaks into your house and steals your rifle, then goes out and kills someone, you should be responsible for that as well?

If a parent leaves his/her weapons lying around the house and fully loaded, and a 6 year old child stumbles across it and accidentaly shoots himself or someone else, then yes, those parents should be held responsible.  What we're talking about here though is parents who undoubtedly stored their weapons in an appropriate manner, whose teenage children decided to take those weapons without permission, load them, drive over to someone elses house, and then put a few bullets through the windows.  There's a BIG difference between the two scenarios.  One is a tragic accident caused by the negligence of the parents and the ignorance of a child.  The other is several seperate crimes commited willingly by individuals who are old enough to know exactly what the repercussions of their actions would be.  If you hold the parents responsible for something like that, where do you draw the line?  Is a parent responsible if his 16 year old offspring decides to steal the family car and commit vehicular homicide?  What about a teen who stabs someone with a knife from the kitchen?  The parents provided access to the knife, so they're responsible, right?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Dec 2004)

Quote,
What we're talking about here though is parents who undoubtedly stored their weapons in an appropriate manner

Did I miss that part?.....or did you mean something else?


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## Scratch_043 (1 Dec 2004)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Right so if someone breaks into your house and steals your rifle, then goes out and kills someone, you should be responsible for that as well?



Yes, they should, because if the thief was able to get the rifle, and the ammunition, (which, by law, must be stored separately) then there was insufficient security measures taken to prevent such an occurrence.



			
				48Highlander said:
			
		

> What we're talking about here though is parents who undoubtedly stored their weapons in an appropriate manner,


Do you know that for sure? if it had been properly secured, then the teens would not be able to gain access.


			
				48Highlander said:
			
		

> Is a parent responsible if his 16 year old offspring decides to steal the family car and commit vehicular homicide?


Depends, does the parent have foreknowledge that the teen may want to commit the crime, do they make any effort to keep the keys from the kid? Is the teen licensed to drive, have they been taught by their parents how to drive (if they do not have a license).


			
				48Highlander said:
			
		

> What about a teen who stabs someone with a knife from the kitchen? The parents provided access to the knife, so they're responsible, right?


In this case, since there are no regulations on knifes, ie. they can be purchased without ID, there is no regulation on safe storage, no age restriction or licensing system. the knife thing would be treated the same way if it was found on the ground, or bought in the store. The parent would only be held responsible for not talking to their child, seeing if there is anything wrong, etc. there is no way to keep teenagers away from kitchen utensils, period, it would be impractical, where locking up your firearms, is necessarry, as you will not require immediate access, at the moment, and it prevents situations like the one we are talking about now.

The issue is accessibility, it does not matter if it is 'borrowed' by a child, or stolen by another adult, if a gun owner is found negligent in the proper safety and storage of his firearms, he should be held accountable. This is not to say that the other parties should not be charged, they are committing the crime, and should be prepared to do the time.

Basically what I am saying here is this:
*LOCK UP YOUR GUNS*

Edit: Thanks Bruce, I should really start making my posts shorter


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## 48Highlander (1 Dec 2004)

ToRN said:
			
		

> Yes, they should, because if the thief was able to get the rifle, and the ammunition, (which, by law, must be stored separately) then there was insufficient security measures taken to prevent such an occurrence.





> if it had been properly secured, then the teens would not be able to gain access.



Locks exist to keep honest people honest, not to keep criminals out.  I learned to pick locks when I was 12, it's not a difficult proccess.  Breaking or cutting them is even simpler.



			
				ToRN said:
			
		

> Do you know that for sure?



Sorry, no, I don't have any knowledge of how the weapons were stored.  I do however know of other cases where the parents did "lock up their guns", keep the ammunition seperate, etc, and their children still got to the weapons.  In a situation like that, I really don't see how you could hold the parents responsible for anything other than failing to beat some common sense into the little bastards.



			
				ToRN said:
			
		

> Depends, does the parent have foreknowledge that the teen may want to commit the crime, do they make any effort to keep the keys from the kid? Is the teen licensed to drive, have they been taught by their parents how to drive (if they do not have a license).In this case, since there are no regulations on knifes, ie. they can be purchased without ID, there is no regulation on safe storage, no age restriction or licensing system. the knife thing would be treated the same way if it was found on the ground, or bought in the store. The parent would only be held responsible for not talking to their child, seeing if there is anything wrong, etc. there is no way to keep teenagers away from kitchen utensils, period, it would be impractical, where locking up your firearms, is necessarry, as you will not require immediate access, at the moment, and it prevents situations like the one we are talking about now.
> The issue is accessibility, it does not matter if it is 'borrowed' by a child, or stolen by another adult, if a gun owner is found negligent in the proper safety and storage of his firearms, he should be held accountable. This is not to say that the other parties should not be charged, they are committing the crime, and should be prepared to do the time.
> Basically what I am saying here is this:
> *LOCK UP YOUR GUNS*
> Edit: Thanks Bruce, I should really start making my posts shorter



I get ya.  Maybe I misunderstood the point of your posts.  If you're saying that the parents should be held responsible for failing to properly store their weapons, then I absolutely agree with that.  As long as you're not arguing that they should be responsible for the actions of their children regaurdless of wether or not the weapons were stored properly (something which has not been determined in this case).


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## Scratch_043 (1 Dec 2004)

Okay, I'm glad we're on the same page about this now, Truce?


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## Blackhorse7 (1 Dec 2004)

48th Highlander, I'm glad you cleared that up, and perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been in my post.  If the parents took all reasonable steps to secure the firearms, then no, it's not their fault.  But I know of quite a few people who think as long as the gun is locked, it's okay to have the bloody key sitting on the gun cabinet or safe.  In my eyes, unless you have take reasonable steps to prevent that safe or lock from being opened, it's no different than leaving the key to you're house in the door lock outside.  Nobody would do that, right?


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## gunfan (3 Dec 2004)

ToRN Posted:
"
but, by the law, the firearms must be stored such that the firearms can only be accessed by PAL licensed individuals (military personel exempt)

Also, teenagers are not fully 'accountable for their own actions' until the age of 18, I suggest you check your facts. Parents can still be held responsible until then."

ToRN, My facts are accurate. The firearms need to be stored as I described them so that they are not "easily accessible". There is still nothing in your post that indicated that these were easily accessible. The youth did obtain the firearms, it does not say how. 

Teenagers are accountable for their own actions. The criminal code and the Youth Criminal Justice Act are part of holding them accountable. No matter what crimes they commit, they are responsible for them (to the extent that the above laws allow). There is no law in Canada that allows authorities to hold the actions of one person against another, thus parents cannot be charged for the actions of their children, as much as it would be nice to see. 

The above are the facts. I have been a probation officer and child protection worker for the last 12 years. I have been a CFC instructor for the last three.  I suggest you think about what the facts really are before you start questioning them. 

I do agree and state that individuals who own firearms are responsible for them 24/7. If someone is intent on obtaining your firearms, there is nothing that will prevent them from getting them, if they are given the right tools and enough time.


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