# C9 short barrel with BFA



## Veiledal (6 Mar 2012)

I have been told by fellow peers that you should not use the BFA with short barrel of the C9 and instead use the long barrel. The reason I received had to do with the fact that there is too much pressure from the gas when cycling the weapon and it could crack the barrel. Can anyone confirm or give a better explanation?


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## Snaketnk (6 Mar 2012)

I've heard the same thing from a few people, but I wouldn't trust those particular people with disassembling a C7 unsupervised. 

If it was really a major concern, I'd expect there to be a safety bulletin and a mandatory brief on it, like when it was discovered that people over a certain height shouldn't be driving LAVs overseas.


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## NavyShooter (6 Mar 2012)

http://admmat.mil.ca/cosmat/daer/documents/Bulletin%2002-2010.pdf

Summary:

In the past 36 months there have been 17 reported occurrences of mixing Ball, Blank and/or
Dummy rounds of Small Arms Ammunition (SAA). These have occurred for a variety or
reasons - the common thread being Human Error. In a recent occurrence, poor unit control,
coupled with a member’s failure to inspect ammunition as it was being loaded, resulted in
six Ball rounds being red from a weapon mounting a Blank Firing Attachment. They were
red towards the exercise enemy force, luckily without any serious consequences.

CONTROL MEASURES
In order to avoid repeats of such occurrences:
-Never use Ball, Blank or Dummy SAA at the same time. Ensure specic time periods are
scheduled when there is a need to change SAA types;
-Transport and store Ball, Blank and Dummy SAA separately;
-Members loading their weapons or magazines with Blank SAA rounds are to inspect each
one to ensure they are indeed Blank rounds; and
-Blank SAA shall be loaded in daylight whenever possible. When Blank SAA is loaded at
night, white light must be used.


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## NavyShooter (6 Mar 2012)

Additional info on Small Arms technical Bulletins here:

http://admmat.mil.ca/dglepm/dsspm/en/products_services_small_arms_tech_updates_e.asp

Out of 80 notices, there are 6 related to the C-9 FOW (Family of Weapons, including the C-9, C-9A1 and C-9A2, plus the ammunition.)

77        Ammunition Restriction #801 - FX 5.56mm linked 

73        C9A2 Vertical Folding Grip – NSN 1005-20-003-7694

67        Mid-Life Upgrade – C9 to C9A2 LMG

56        Bolt Body, C9/C9A1

22        C9/C9A1 – Cover Hinge Spring Seating Hole

15        C9/C9A1 LMG – Extractor Assy, Breech Block – New Parts 

There's info in there about everything from Browing pistol stoppages to  engraving muzzle brakes.

I would think that if there was a design flaw such as you describe, it would be on this site....it's not.

Consult with your armourers, and confirm.

NS


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## Robert0288 (6 Mar 2012)

On my BMQ(L) they took away our short barrel and gave us the same explaination they gave OP.  When I asked what happens when I have to do a barrel change, there was just a collective shrug and said to keep firing.  45m-1h(or so) and 18 boxes later my BFA was an interesting shade of fire, was no longer yellow and was N/S'd shortly afterwards.


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Mar 2012)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> http://admmat.mil.ca/cosmat/daer/documents/Bulletin%2002-2010.pdf
> 
> CONTROL MEASURES
> In order to avoid repeats of such occurrences:
> ...



So, they're being rhetorical when they are telling us to do exactly what we've always done and follow the same rules we always have.

Why aren't these rules that we've been using since before I was in being taught and followed.

Charges all around are definitely warranted to every case.

I'm glad I'm coming to the end of my rope, when the military is treating new soldiers like teachers are treating today's students.


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## dangerboy (6 Mar 2012)

At the training centre we have not heard anything (official or unofficial) about using the BFA with the short barrel.  If there was an issue, there would have been warning given and most likely a mod done to the barrel so that it would not except a BFA.  

  With regards to the short barrel, I sometimes question the use of it sometimes.  Unless you are doing urban operations or operating in tight quarters I would have the long barrel on to maximize the effectiveness of the LMG.  I think most people but the short barrel on for the look cool factor.


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## Snaketnk (6 Mar 2012)

Well as someone who works in vehicles a lot of the time... the Short Barrel/folding stock is a godsend.


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## Lerch (7 Mar 2012)

I used the short barrel and BFA last year when I played OPFOR for guys going overseas. The only thing I noticed was the barrel heated up quicker than a longer barrel.


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## BDTyre (8 Mar 2012)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Well as someone who works in vehicles a lot of the time... the Short Barrel/folding stock is a godsend.



Yeah, it certainly does cut down on the amount of swearing and embarassment you usually get when repeatedly slamming the standard barrel into the door/hatch.

We just had our first ex with the A2s last month, and a number of guys had the short barrel on. No issues. In my mind, the short barrel would be _better_ for use with blanks, as the increased pressure will help cycle the action and cut down on the usual stoppages that blanks are prone to cause.


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## Spooks (8 Mar 2012)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Well as someone who works in vehicles a lot of the time... the Short Barrel/folding stock is a godsend.



From my experience, working outside the wire in vehicles with C9s is an adventure. When outside the wire, you have all weapons loaded and readied. For the C9, this means the bolt is back. When the vehicle hits a sudden bump, there is a chance that the bolt carrier will release and thus fire a round in the direction your was pointed (in that case, down at the floor). From the investigation with the WpnsTechs, it was noted that they do have that happen. That was in Winter of '05. Talking to a Wpns Tech a few months ago, they do know that -still- and I have not heard of any warnings sent out.


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## MJP (8 Mar 2012)

GhostofJacK said:
			
		

> From my experience, working outside the wire in vehicles with C9s is an adventure. When outside the wire, you have all weapons loaded and readied. For the C9, this means the bolt is back. When the vehicle hits a sudden bump, there is a chance that the bolt carrier will release and thus fire a round in the direction your was pointed (in that case, down at the floor). From the investigation with the WpnsTechs, it was noted that they do have that happen. That was in Winter of '05. Talking to a Wpns Tech a few months ago, they do know that -still- and I have not heard of any warnings sent out.



We had a soldier in Kabul shot in the foot from exactly that in 2004.  Luckily it was his foot as we had a pretty strict policy of barrels down in a vehicle to prevent a ND from hitting someone in the head.  I can only speak for my Platoon, because of that incident in 06 in Khandahar our policy was C9s loaded but not readied in the vehicles (except as air sentries).  It only takes a split second to ready and never caused any issues.


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## ArmyRick (8 Mar 2012)

I was a course WO for a BMQ(L) and there was a CFTO (wished I had saved it) saying exactly what OP had said. Short barrels with BFA fitted was putting too much pressure on the bolt spring. I saw the pics on the report showing example damage. I do not know what the current status of said restriction was.

You should have been good to go to fire both barrels on a range.

The mechanism of both C9 and C6 is such that if trigger mech is worn, you can have an ND or also a run away gun. This can also have issues if the return/recoil springs are worn out.

Hope this helps.


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## Sigs Pig (8 Mar 2012)

Hey,

I attempted to go to the above site links from my civvy computer (during my coffee break!) and IE said they were unavailable. Looking at the address, I cannot remember if that is a DWAN website or my employer is blocking it. If it is CF, then are not some guidelines being broken?

Help?

ME


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## 211RadOp (8 Mar 2012)

Sigs Pig said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> I attempted to go to the above site links from my civvy computer (during my coffee break!) and IE said they were unavailable. Looking at the address, I cannot remember if that is a DWAN website or my employer is blocking it. If it is CF, then are not some guidelines being broken?
> 
> ...



If the address ends in .mil.ca then it is a DWAN address and is not accessable from the internet.


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## BDTyre (8 Mar 2012)

We received A2s in theatre in late Nov. - early Dec. 09. Brand new, still in bags and packing grease. Fast forward a few months towards the end of tour, probably early Spring of 2010. We're conducting a fire and movement range, and I move from my position behind one vehicle to a postion behind the next vehicle. I grab the C9 by the handle and put it down and get down behind it. Click. "Stoppage." Did my IA, and squeezed the trigger. No bang - but the barrel did fly off. Tried racking the action, couldn't move it. Range staff came over - "hard extraction?" "No Sgt, catastrophic failure." I get pulled off the range and take the weapon to the weapon techs. They open the feed tray, they'd never seen anything like it before. The bolt had come loose from the carrier and somehow became lodged between the carrier and the chamber face. Took a ballpeen hammer and a screwdriver to free it.


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## ldshrecceboy (17 Mar 2012)

First that i have heard of any concerns, we use the CQB barrel with BFA all the time and have No problems, what so ever..............strange.


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## Dkeh (14 May 2012)

My regiment has the same policy- No BFA's on the stubbies. After talking to my friendly neighborhood spiderman weapons tech, he confirmed the pressure was the issue.


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## ArmyRick (14 May 2012)

Regiments may or may not use short barrel with BFA, just know that there is a DIRECTIVE not to do it. I was talking to a WO Weapons Tech a few weeks ago and he confirmed there is a tech order not to do it. 

Disobey at your own peril, if a weapons tech repairs your C9 and finds you have been violating the directive, you will suffer consequences.


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## dangerboy (14 May 2012)

If someone has a copy of this directive can they put the link to it for pers in units without integral weapons techs.


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## NavyShooter (14 May 2012)

The ADMMAT website I linked above should have such a directive on it if it exists.

I'm at home now and can't check, but will look tomorrow if I can get time.

I believe that such an order may exist, but the distribution of such an order...well...sometimes the dist lists are not properly actioned for some reason.

NS


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## Dissident (14 May 2012)

Tag for interest.


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## dangerboy (15 May 2012)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> The ADMMAT website I linked above should have such a directive on it if it exists.
> 
> I'm at home now and can't check, but will look tomorrow if I can get time.
> 
> ...



I had a look through the link you provided and did not see any directive.  But of course being a DWAN website several of the links did not work.


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## OldSolduer (15 May 2012)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Regiments may or may not use short barrel with BFA, just know that there is a DIRECTIVE not to do it. I was talking to a WO Weapons Tech a few weeks ago and he confirmed there is a tech order not to do it.
> 
> Disobey at your own peril, if a weapons tech repairs your C9 and finds you have been violating the directive, you will suffer consequences.



Can you find said directive and send it to me? PM inbound.


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## Spooks (15 May 2012)

I took this info on up as we use short barrels in our Bn. Our Snr Wpns Tech did not know and so he contacted a MWO ETQMS about it. This is where I will tell you the story which also resulted in having my wrist lightly slapped/tapped b/c of it.

"This is not an issue.  The only issue that the BFA would cause is an increase of the rate of fire, possible."

This is an excerpt from the email I received so I am wanting to share this (part of the) information so I can hopefully squash this rumor. We have said that short barrels are green-lighted so I will continue to hand them out to my unit. Hopefully this solves any confusion that may have arisen from this rumor/story.


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## dangles (15 May 2012)

I do not have any of the directives or policies regarding this issue, but last weekend our short barrels were taken away from us when we were firing blanks for this exact reason. We actually did a few section attacks with the short barrels and BFA's on, and the one thing I noticed was a ton of stoppages that seemed to decrease as we switched to the long barrels.


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