# Purchasing Goods



## dandy1234 (28 Oct 2015)

Can someone explain SOA and in what publication do I find what amounts need a quote i.e. over $1000 - three quotes, if I am purchasing goods for my unit.  ThANKS


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## REDinstaller (28 Oct 2015)

Do you have sect 32/34 authority? If not then you can't purchase anything.


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## dapaterson (28 Oct 2015)

Talk to your supporting base Compt shop; they should be able to steer you in the right direction.  Different places do things in different ways.


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## BinRat55 (29 Oct 2015)

First and foremost, Tango18A is correct - if you don't have sect 32/33/34 auth you can't purchase anything on behalf of DND. You also need CDWT and Green Procurement. Secondly, you needed the answers to these question IOT have gotten an AC. How do you have an AC and not understand the process?

If you are using an SOA (http://soi.pwgsc.gc.ca/app/index.cfm?Fuseaction=sim.search&altlang=-e) you do *not * need quotes.

If you are buying somewhere else and there IS an SOA - you will get yourself in a bit of a pickle. Research "Confirming Order"


The suggested minimum number of quotes required for LDV procurement:
 Less than or equal to $1000.00 - one quote;
 Greater than $1,000.00 and less than or equal to $2,500.00 - two quotes;
 Greater than $2,500.00 and less than or equal to $25,000.00 – minimum three quotes.

http://materiel.mil.ca/assets/MAT_Intranet/docs/en/business-functions-materiel-management/manual-sam.pdf

http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/matknet/documents/PAM/manual_ProcurementAdministrationManualPAM_v1_e.pdf

While the Comptroller would be a good asset to ask, your Base Supply LPO section is a better place to go. I honestly don't think you have the qualifications necessary to purchace on your own and Supply will end up doing it anyway.


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## Lumber (29 Oct 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> If you are using an SOA (http://soi.pwgsc.gc.ca/app/index.cfm?Fuseaction=sim.search&altlang=-e) you do *not * need quotes.



Ugh, the SOI... what a nightmare to try and navigate for people who have 32/34 but don't have much experience with acquisitions/supply.


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## BinRat55 (29 Oct 2015)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Ugh, the SOI... what a nightmare to try and navigate for people who have 32/34 but don't have much experience with acquisitions/supply.



Agreed. That's why someone who's not so familiar with the system, or just has a general question (Excuse me LPO section, but can you tell me if Vaseline is on a Standing Offer somewhere? Thanks!)... can always call the experts!


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## CountDC (3 Nov 2015)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Do you have sect 32/34 authority? If not then you can't purchase anything.



Hmmm - although a common belief not quite true.

Sect 32 Auth is Control of Commitments - basically you are saying that money is available to cover the cost of the purchase.

Sect 34 Auth is the Certification Authority - basically you are saying yep, everything looks right so this should be paid.

Sect 33 Auth is the Payment Authority - basically you are saying everything is good so issue the payment.

None of them give the purchasing authority.

Even with Sect 32/34 you may not be able to purchase items as that falls under Transaction/Contracting Authorities.  I have a mbr with 32/34 and an Acq Card but in order to make purchases she needs the RQ or myself to authorize as she does not have that auth on her DOA.


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## BinRat55 (4 Nov 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Hmmm - although a common belief not quite true.
> 
> Even with Sect 32/34 you may not be able to purchase items as that falls under Transaction/Contracting Authorities.  I have a mbr with 32/34 and an Acq Card but in order to make purchases she needs the RQ or myself to authorize as she does not have that auth on her DOA.



You are presenting semantics Count - the point is that if your member never had the Sect 32/34, CDWT and Green Proc, they would NOT have an acq card, and therefore not able to purchase - period!


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## CountDC (4 Nov 2015)

I am presenting actual facts to the OP and clarifying a misconception including the one you have just posted.

My staff mbr does not have CDWT or Green Proc but does have an Acq Card.  If she had the two courses I would have included the contracting sections on her DOA prior to approving it and would have included Contracting on her Acq Card rather than have her need someone else such as me approve the purchases for her.


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## BinRat55 (6 Nov 2015)

Actually, the OP merely wanted to know how the SOAs worked. It was Tango18 who put the first iron in this fire. And Tango18 was correct.

I will conceede on the CDWT and Green Proc issue - it's possible that different comptrollers require diffrent criteria to be mey IOT receive an Acq card, however the fact remains that any member in the Dept of National Defence, civilian or military, will have an EA course. Don't bother telling me that it says no such thing in the FAM as I am aware. But if you can introduce me to an individual who is in posession of an aquisition card with out so much as a course, I will point out a RDAO comptroller and and an RC Manager who has severely flawed judgement.

So, my point still stands - you NEED to have the EA course (Sect 32/33/34) in order to get a credit card. You NEED to have some sort of DA to purchase on behalf of the Govt of Canada - in any capacity. Tango18 said "Do you have sect 32/34 authority? If not then you can't purchase anything" - he is correct. It wasn't a blanket statement - you obviously need DA and level 2 auth, but DA will not be assigned to anyone untrained.


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## captloadie (6 Nov 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> But if you can introduce me to an individual who is in possession of an acquisition card with out so much as a course, I will point out a RDAO comptroller and and an RC Manager who has severely flawed judgment.


Really? The acquisition card is merely a method of payment, and holding one has no other authority attached to it. An individual may hold a card because their secondary duty may be the PPS rep. All they do is submit a previously approved list of goods and have them paid for via a card they hold. Other than having the training on how to reconcile their card, they don't need any other authority or training because they aren't exercising any decision making authority. It may not be the best way to do it, but it isn't wrong.


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## BinRat55 (6 Nov 2015)

Ok, just so I can understand what it is we are talking about, tell me if I have this correct - Cpl Bloggins is posted in from their QL5s. No actual procurement training yet, but you know it's coming. They can just fill out a BMO application and get a credit card, no questions asked? But when they are required to use it thay have to get the courses?


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## captloadie (8 Nov 2015)

It is more akin to me giving Cpl Bloggins a shopping list and $20 cash and telling him to go get me what's on the list and bring back the change. The only difference is he's using a card. He's not making decisions, he's simply a means to an end.


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## BinRat55 (9 Nov 2015)

Ok, my last ditch effort to explain myself here.

You gave Cpl Bloggins $20.00 of CANADA's money - not your own. If Cpl Bloggins never bought the correct brand, or style and then decided that 2.00 for a coffee for himself wasn't unreasonable for his effort, then what reprecussions does CANADA have to hold Cpl Bloggins accountable? None. Now, Cpl Bloggins does a Expentiture Management Course, the RDAO can tell CANAD that yes, Cpl Bloggins is qualified to spend your money. I don't give a rats a** about who actually doles out the permission, he / she has a card valued in the thousands and tens of thousands that no one on civi street cares that you gave them permission.

Everyone in uniform needs to have a current qualification in Expentiture Managament, Contracting Direct With the Trade, and Green Procurement IOT hold a BMO Mastercard in your name. Period. Call and argue the point with any Base Comptroller and see how far you get.


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## MJP (9 Nov 2015)

How about we just look at the reference?
FAM 1016-7-1 http://cfo-dpf.mil.ca/en/policy-procedure-fam/1016-7-1-acquisition-cards.page (DWAN)

Contracting	3.	The issuance of an acquisition card* is not a delegation of contracting authority* as defined in DAOD 3004-0, Contracting or the Delegation of Authorities for Financial Administration for the DND or CF. 

4.	Purchases on the acquisition card *shall not exceed the contracting authority of the person approving the purchase* as indicated in the Delegation of Authorities for Financial Administration for the DND and the CF.  Also, before entering into a contract to spend public funds, *RC Managers are responsible for ensuring that the contracting policy has been followed * and commitment controls are in place.  Refer to FAM Chapter 1016-2, Expenditure Planning and Initiation – Financial Administration Act (FAA) Section 32 for additional information.

5.	If a Responsibility Centre (RC) Manager wishes to assign contracting authority to a cardholder, he/she shall complete the applicable section of the acquisition card request form.  The RC Manager shall indicate the financial and functional limitations assigned to the cardholder, *not to exceed the maximum limits delegated to the RC Manager*.   Completion of this section will provide the cardholder with the authority to make purchases on behalf of the RC Manager as a Responsibility Centre Administrator without the need for pre-authorization for each purchase.  *If the RC Manager has not assigned contracting authority to the cardholder, the cardholder can only procure if the RC Manager gives written authority prior to each purchase.*

	Who Can Be a Cardholder?	16.	Throughout this FAM Chapter, the term “cardholder” refers to an individual who is in possession of a:
a.	standard acquisition card; or
b.	corporate acquisition card that has been signed out to them for temporary use. 
17.	Subject to the general restrictions set out in paragraph 21 below, the following individual may be a cardholder:
a.	DND indeterminate employee;
b.	DND term employee with six (or more) months of continuous employment;
c.	Canadian Forces (CF) member of the Regular Force; CF Reserve Force Class B and Class C member with a minimum of six months  service;
d.	indeterminate government employee of other departments and/or governments seconded or assigned to a DND position; or
e.	locally engaged personnel abroad (hired as full time departmental employees).

Usage
		18.	An acquisition card can only be used by a cardholder for authorized government purchases in accordance with the:
a.	terms and conditions of the acquisition card contract as stipulated throughout this FAM Chapter;
b.	limitations established by the RC Manager; and
c.	contracting authority of the individual authorizing the purchase.
19.	The acquisition card shall not be used for:
a.	personal use; 
b.	obtaining cash advances; 
c.	travel-related expenses; or
d.	vehicle operating and maintenance expenses within Canada and the Continental United States.
20.	There are certain goods and/or services that cannot be purchased by RC Managers for safety, compatibility or life cycle reasons.  Examples include hazardous material, weapons, ammunition, etc.  Prior to initializing any purchase, RC Managers shall ensure they have the authority to purchase the goods based on their description.  For more detailed information, RC Managers should contact their local supply section.


Requesting an Acquisition Card

	Process	32.	The following table illustrates the process to request a card: 
The …	Shall …
Card applicant (standard card only)
or
Custodian (corporate card only)	a.	*read, complete and sign Section 1 of:
(i)	Annex A for a standard acquisition card; or
(ii)	Annex B for a corporate acquisition card;
b.	complete the BMO MasterCard Acquisition Card – Employee Account Request Form or the CIBC - Government of Canada Purchasing Card Cardholder Application Form; and
c.	forward both the Annex and the completed credit card provider application form to the RC Manager for approval.*

Horrible formatting aside, Binrat55 you can see there is no requirement to have any courses done.  The holding accountable comes from the RC Manager not the individual with the Acq Card.  It will be rare to find folks without the courses as they are good PD but it does happen.


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## McG (9 Nov 2015)

MJP said:
			
		

> How about we just look at the reference?


That's crazy talk.


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## BinRat55 (10 Nov 2015)

Oy vey.

Ok, so in the absence of a solid reference, the grey area wins. I just hope no bad habits are being taught. 

I, in my vast experience in Supply as a purchaser, LPO clerk and RC Manager, would never allow an individual to have control of a credit card without the courses - which by the way, are more than just "good PD".


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## MJP (10 Nov 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Oy vey.
> 
> Ok, so in the absence of a solid reference, the grey area wins. I just hope no bad habits are being taught.



The FAM is the solid reference, we have to follow it.  There is no grey area.  This is a deliberate policy to allow RC Managers more options in obtaining low dollar value goods.  Do all of my buyers have the courses and DOAs?  Yes, but I have had people in the past working for me without the crses or DOAs that used Acq Cards.   

You sound like a great Sup Tech but you need to take the absolute this is the way blinders off man.  There are many ways to get things done across the board.  Most things in the CAF are not so black and white that it has to be done in one way and one way only.


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## opcougar (10 Nov 2015)

Anyone is yet to advice the OP to just go to the 2IC (most of whom have their finance crses, along with DOA). Also why go all the way to the Comptroller, when the Fin O will do? Also note that with all these crses comes DRMIS trg needed to reconcile every week. There is usually 1 or 2 holding the now BMO card (ex Amex).

I am NOT a log type and I have all the Fin crses, DOA bar the CC because other people carry that responsibility.


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## MJP (11 Nov 2015)

opcougar said:
			
		

> Anyone is yet to advice the OP to just go to the 2IC (most of whom have their finance crses, along with DOA). Also why go all the way to the Comptroller, when the Fin O will do? Also note that with all these crses comes DRMIS trg needed to reconcile every week. There is usually 1 or 2 holding the now BMO card (ex Amex).
> 
> I am NOT a log type and I have all the Fin crses, DOA bar the CC because other people carry that responsibility.



OP has't been back on since they posted to clarify what exactly they are seeking to buy or position they fill within their unit.  Honestly without knowing that, any advice except what has been given here is too broad to be of direct help.


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## BinRat55 (13 Nov 2015)

MJP said:
			
		

> The FAM is the solid reference, we have to follow it.  There is no grey area.  This is a deliberate policy to allow RC Managers more options in obtaining low dollar value goods.  Do all of my buyers have the courses and DOAs?  Yes, but I have had people in the past working for me without the crses or DOAs that used Acq Cards.
> 
> You sound like a great Sup Tech but you need to take the absolute this is the way blinders off man.  There are many ways to get things done across the board.  Most things in the CAF are not so black and white that it has to be done in one way and one way only.



I am not disputing that the FAM is / is not a solid reference. I agree with you on this. The grey area is in what's NOT said in the reference. And in no way am I attempting to discredit the knowledge and experience of those in this discussion. And if you knew me, you would see that i'm the last person who would put blinders on. But in saying that, I AM by the book. I know when to go by the book, and I know when NOT to go by the book. When dealing with public funds, the book wins. And I will defer to the most experience. When (in my experience) several Comptrollers, Fin Os, respected colleagues in high places tell me that I need these courses / training IOT hold an acquisition card, then far be it for me to "thumb" my nose at that.


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## CountDC (13 Nov 2015)

and nor should you thumb your nose at it but you should consider that it is not a DND policy for acq cards, it was the policy established by specific mbrs to apply to mbrs they were responsible for.  In general I require card holders to have all the courses but made the exception for this one as they work directly with me as my 2IC and I know I can trust not to go off the rails.  As the RC Mgr I can do that as by the book there is no requirements for the courses, I held cards twice without the courses and no issues, and am comfortable with the decission in this case. Oh - and the higher level has no issues.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Nov 2015)

Wow. Are we still at this?   :stirpot:


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## DAA (13 Nov 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Wow. Are we still at this?   :stirpot:



Always will be at this one..........

To hold an ACQ Card and last I heard, requires the holder to have completed the Expenditure Management course (ie 32/33/34), CDWT and also Green Procurement.  The only one who can waive any of these requirements is the local RDAO.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-1000/1016-0.page

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pol/doc-eng.aspx?id=17059

Not to mention, the need for a proper DOA and if memory services me correct, UU019 responsibilities in DRMIS.  I can't see a Compt Office giving UU019 without the three quals and if they do, something isn't right!!!!


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## MJP (13 Nov 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Wow. Are we still at this?   :stirpot:



It is only one of the most misunderstood subjects (finances and contracting that is), probably only second to how is the Supply system able to supply headwear that fit fighter jet pilots heads.  

Since OP hasn't come back to clarify anything, the discussion as it always does on Army.ca has evolved into some interesting PD.



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> Always will be at this one..........
> 
> To hold an ACQ Card and last I heard, requires the holder to have completed the Expenditure Management course (ie 32/33/34), CDWT and also Green Procurement.  The only one who can waive any of these requirements is the local RDAO.
> 
> ...



It might feel wrong but there as has been pointed out in this thread, there is no need for someone with an Acq Card to have any courses nor do they need a DOA.  Should they?  Yes, but at the end of the day you don't need it.


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