# p90x to make BMQ PT a bit easier. Good/Bad Idea.



## Searyn (27 Oct 2010)

Hello all. This is my first post on these boards. However, I've been reading them almost nonstop for a few days. I applied to the Combat Engineers back at the beginning of April 2010, but at the end of April I got a phone call saying that it was closed and would be until April 2011. After reading these boards I understand why. 

Anyway, I've done a fair bit of research on what they do (yes I know it's not just blowing stuff up or busting down doors, that's only a small part of their job) and I've decided to stick with it and wait it out, even if it means I won't be able to join until 2012 or later. 

My problem is this: I'm 6'4" 205lbs 22% body fat but I've never been exceptionally muscular. I'm a 1st Dan Black belt in ITF Tae Kwon-Do and have always been best at sparring, since it doesn't require too much strength. (It's mostly about precision hits and control, in ITF sparring. It's not a point unless it's within 2-3 inches from the target... that is when it's competition and not practice. In practice it's full contact if you both agree to it) However now that I know I'll eventually be joining the CF I need to gain muscle strength as well.

I started doing p90x last Sunday (24 Oct) and I'll be completing at least one full round. I chose it because it's a cardio and complete full body workout, with a nutrition guide to help you succeed (at least that's what I believe with my limited knowledge base)

My question is, _Has anyone who is now in the CF done this workout before going through BMQ? And how much did it help? Or if you did it after you joined how would you rate it as a "pre-BMQ get into better shape" routine._


I should also mention that I've read a lot of posts about how easy the application PT test is, or how different from everything BMQ is. That's all well and good. But that's not the point of my question. I only want to use p90x as a means of making my life at BMQ a bit easier (and hopefully scoring near the top on as much as possible) by making my whole body stronger, not as a means of passing the PT test.

Thank you so much for your advice.
P.S. I did do a few searches for p90x but it was only ever mentioned casually in a post as an example; never as a whole topic, that I could find anyway.


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## Nostix (27 Oct 2010)

In my experience, any proper exercise program which a person actually follows through and completes, without quitting, modifying, or only partially attempting, will have a positive effect on their life.

I would encourage you to focus more on _completing a program_, than trying to find _the best program_. As a beginner, most of the results come from actually doing something regularly, as opposed to the specifics of what that something is.

That said, I personally haven't completed P90X. Perhaps someone will come along who has, and can give you feedback.


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

If you're looking to get stronger and lose weight, you should explore other options...


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## Jarnhamar (27 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> If you're looking to get stronger and lose weight, you should explore other options...



Why?


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Why?



Because there are more effective ways to achieve those goals?

Also, it's primarily concerned with aesthetics, not performance.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Oct 2010)

You're not offering much in the way of validating your argument.

I'm not saying you're wrong but simply replying "Don't do it" isn't very helpful, don't you agree?


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## Rigger052 (27 Oct 2010)

IMHO P90x is a great way to improve/maintain your cardio, but if you are concerned about your strength I would suggest modifying your current fitness regime by adding some strength training in as well. While it's been a while since I completed basic (12 yrs and counting  ;D) doing anything to improve your fitness before a course will be to your benefit. My unit has been throwing P90x at us at least once a week for the past month and I've noticed an improvement on my endurance.

My  :2c: for what it's worth, good luck with your courses.


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## 2 Cdo (27 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> Because there are more effective ways to achieve those goals?
> 
> Also, it's primarily concerned with aesthetics, not performance.



I have a few buddieswho are fitness machines who will disagree with you about the performance aspect of P90x.


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

The thread starter wants to get stronger.

P90X is not the best way.

Doing body weight exercises and light dumbbell movements is not the best way to get stronger while also losing quite a bit of weight.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore.


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## aesop081 (27 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> P90X is not the best way.



Says you.

Fitness opinions are like arseholes.........


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Says you.
> 
> Fitness opinions are like arseholes.........



Right, and there are some things that aren't matter of opinions.

Oops, just lied about not posting, I guess.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> The thread starter wants to get stronger.
> 
> P90X is not the best way.
> 
> ...



You're not backing up your comments with facts though.

I can say the LAV 3 sucks but if I don't give you reasons why, how much credit can you give what I'm saying?


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> You're not backing up your comments with facts though.
> 
> I can say the LAV 3 sucks but if I don't give you reasons why, how much credit can you give what I'm saying?



Because people can and should be able to do their own research?

Get stronger involves exposing yourself to a progressively heavier stimulus/load. For this reason, body weight exercises can only go so far. Then what? You can do more reps, but again, this can only go so far in making you _*stronger*_. The P90X commercial starts off with the words "If you want to look extraordinary". 

I believe Mike Turscher is in the US Air Force. Look him up on YouTube. Why doesn't he just use P90X?


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## Jarnhamar (27 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> I believe Mike Turscher is in the US Air Force. Look him up on YouTube. Why doesn't he just use P90X?


I got a congress weenie and some tubby german guy  ???


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I got a congress weenie and some tubby german guy  ???



He has 244 videos, but these are some highlights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2fdfC-uwbE&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiuzjYdljbM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Power275#p/u/5/Dy2F5xCkzqA


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## Searyn (27 Oct 2010)

Heh I don't need to lose weight. like I said I'm 6'4" and only 205. I've been a twig my entire life (When I was 20 I thought it was awesome that I finally broke the 180 mark). 205 is the heaviest I've ever been. (I'm 25 now). 

You can use p90x to either a) tone your muscles, thereby giving yourself that ripped look. or B) build your muscles. Which is what I am using it for.

It's all in the number of reps before failing. By "failing" I mean the point at which you can't lift the weight safely (with the proper form) without injuring yourself. Which is determined by how much weight you lift each rep

Do 12-17 reps before you can't lift the weights properly and you're toning for the vanity aspect. However, if you do 5-8 before you can't lift the weights then you're building muscle. That goes for any routine. It's a matter of how you use p90x that defines what you gain from it. So saying it's purely for aesthetics doesn't make sense, in my mind anyway.


on a side note: I really hope someone who's done the program notices this thread soon heh. I didn't intend it to start a flame war between people who think their way is best.


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> Heh I don't need to lose weight. like I said I'm 6'4" and only 205. I've been a twig my entire life (When I was 20 I thought it was awesome that I finally broke the 180 mark). 205 is the heaviest I've ever been. (I'm 25 now).
> 
> You can use p90x to either a) tone your muscles, thereby giving yourself that ripped look. or B) build your muscles. Which is what I am using it for.
> 
> ...



- You're right, you are skinny, all the more reason not to do P90X, where one of the main goals is to lose weight.
- There is no such thing as "toning". There is more muscle and less muscle, more body fat and less body fat.
- I think you're mistaken on the whole reps and lifting for vanity thing. Even those who train purely for strength can and do use higher reps.
- The P90X website is called beachbody.com. Lol.



> The secret behind the P90X workout system is an advanced training technique called Muscle Confusion™, which accelerates the results process by constantly introducing new moves and routines so your body never plateaus, and you never get bored! Whether you want to get lean, bulk up, or just plain get ripped, there's an endless variety of ways to mix and match the routines to keep you motivated the full 90 days and beyond!



It's too bad "muscle confusion" isn't real, isn't it?

I don't think my way is best, but I definitely know it's better.

Do you know what Starting Strength is? Do you know what a deadlift, squat or overhead press is?

Do you really want to get stronger?


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## aesop081 (27 Oct 2010)

:brickwall:

Hey...fitness god.....weren't you going to stop posting in this ?


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## Kat Stevens (27 Oct 2010)

On BMQ you are not going to be expected to bench press a '58 Buick.  You will be expected to be fit. P90X will do that, in spades if you follow it.


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## Hammer Sandwich (28 Oct 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> On BMQ you are not going to be expected to bench press a '58 Buick.  You will be expected to be fit. P90X will do that, in spades if you follow it.



I have to agree, and disagree with the above statement.

_Your BMQ_ fitness test might involve a "car lift", might be a Buick, or Chevy, or etc....if the DS sees fit.

Just kidding, but what Kat Stevens is throwin' down, you should pick up.
Just get in shape.

From my experience, as long as you're in shape, (don't matter if you're an arm, leg, or superbuns person)...you're in shape.

That's what matters.

Just don't buy a "shakeweight". That shit is so gay, Boy George just called it Gay.


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## Ascendant (28 Oct 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> :brickwall:
> 
> Hey...fitness god.....weren't you going to stop posting in this ?



I already called myself on my lie.

I don't think I've ever made claim to knowing everything.

Some things are basic, though.

Kat, you can't be strong and fit at the same time? Again, look at my post on the first page of a member of the US Air Force. I'm assuming he'd have to pass fitness tests, right? Or do some people get an exemption? You can't be strong and be able to do a lot of push ups or run?

Have any of you people attempting to call me out done anything other than pass the military fitness standards, do push ups and run? Are any of you strong?

Sometimes, "the proof is in the pudding" hold true.

The guy asked how to get strong, named a sub par method. I pointed this out.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Oct 2010)

The tone of the original question was if P90X was a good idea to prepare for BMQ.  It is.  Of course you can be strong and fit, but fit is what you need for basic training.  I had a guy on my basic training who could have rag dolled Lou Ferigno around, he was not overly successful at what BMQ requires.  Plenty of time to shotgun pig placenta shakes and run around shruggin D9 Cat blades later, if that's your bag, as apparently it's yours.


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## Teeps74 (28 Oct 2010)

Just a nit picking point... But I have seen and witnessed many people who are not "strong" but could fight, and lots who were strong, and could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Military fitness is more then 12% body fat and bench pressing large cars. Not everyone has the physiology to be huge, and not every can run a marathon. But... Almost everyone can be trained to fight.


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## Ascendant (28 Oct 2010)

Lol at you guys taking things to extremes.


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## Nostix (28 Oct 2010)

Wow, Kratos.

If you think he'll get more out of heavy barbell training, say so, then go tell him to do Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5.  They're not some big secret. Don't sit here and dance around the subject because you like to hear yourself talk.


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## Ascendant (28 Oct 2010)

Nostix said:
			
		

> Wow, Kratos.
> 
> If you think he'll get more out of heavy barbell training, say so, then go tell him to do Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5.  They're not some big secret. Don't sit here and dance around the subject because you like to hear yourself talk.



I mentioned SS in one of my posts.

But yes, I do think he should do SS.

I doubt he'll look into it, though, so I wish him all the best in achieving his beach body by way of Muscle Confusion™.


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## tree hugger (28 Oct 2010)

I've completed p90x and I've also used other video's of Tony Horton.  For me I improved dramatically in strength and definately improved my cardio, flexibility and overall fitness.  Tony clearly states over and over if you are going for strength/size lower your reps, for lean muscle increase your reps.  

@Kratos - have you completed this program?  I doubt it.  I have and I think it's fantastic!


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## Chilme (28 Oct 2010)

Well this thread really got out of control fast.

Searyn,

As a fitness staff for the CF, I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with P90X to get your body going for BMQ.  It is much better than nothing.  P90X focuses mostly on the aerobic and muscular endurance components of fitness.  Lucky for you, that is the main focus of the CF fitness evaluation you will conuct in your BMQ.

If you are looking for something more specific to the military, you can try the Canadian Army Fitness Manual.

http://canadianmilitaryandefence.blogspot.com/2010/09/canadian-army-fitness-manual.html

It has all kinds of information and a number of training programs designed to get you in military/deployment shape.  I would highly recommend it.  It was developed by the experts who train the CF.

If you are looking for something a little bit more challenging, you  may want to try the Canadian Special Operations 12 week training program.  It is a step up from the Army Fitness Manual.

http://canadianmilitaryandefence.blogspot.com/2010/09/canadian-special-operations-regiment.html

For specific information on the fitness evaulation used by the CF check the below link

http://canadianmilitaryandefence.blogspot.com/2010/09/canadian-forces-expres-operations.html

For informtion on all other CF fitness evaluations go here:

http://canadianmilitaryandefence.blogspot.com/p/fitness-and-physical-training-in.html


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## Ascendant (28 Oct 2010)

tree hugger said:
			
		

> I've completed p90x and I've also used other video's of Tony Horton.  For me I improved dramatically in strength and definately improved my cardio, flexibility and overall fitness.  Tony clearly states over and over if you are going for strength/size lower your reps, for lean muscle increase your reps.
> 
> @Kratos - have you completed this program?  I doubt it.  I have and I think it's fantastic!



Higher reps do not produce "lean muscle increase". Higher reps induce sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and even higher reps train muscular endurance.

Why would I complete the program? My goal is not to get smaller and/or weaker.


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## tree hugger (28 Oct 2010)

I was completing 10-12 reps per exercise (except those requiring to failure) and definately did not get weaker.  Bottom line is almost any fitness routine would help the OP if includes both strength and cardio prior to BMQ start.  

No one who follows this program as directed, would get less fit.  Kratos - you don't have enough info for an informed opinion of this program.  I recommend that you stand down.


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## 2010newbie (28 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> - You're right, you are skinny, all the more reason not to do P90X, where one of the main goals is to lose weight.



From this statement it is obvious that you are not familiar with the program. The first sentence of the P90X fitness guide states "This program is for YOU, if you have acheived a respectable level of fitness.*" It continues to state "*If you're unsure whether or not you are in good enough condition to take on this extreme fitness program, see the minimum suggested requirements in the Fit Test section of this guidebook."

Here's the breakdown of the Fit Test requirements for men:

Pull-ups - 3
Vertical leap - 5 inches
Push-ups - 15
Toe Touch - at least 6 inches from your toes
Wall squat - hold for one minute
Bicep Curls - minimum 10 w/ 20 lbs
In and outs - 25
Jumping jacks - 2 minutes nonstop

These are by no means extraordinary or difficult, but they want to make sure you are in some semblance of shape prior to starting.

I have P90X and I have completed half of it. I found it great for all-around strength, flexibility, and endurance. I felt I needed to supplement it with a running regime as well, but other than that it was what I was looking for. As for your mention of using only body weight exercises and light dumbbells, that isn't entirely correct. Yes, there are a lot of body weight exercises, but they don't suggest to use only "light" dumbbells either. They stress to use the weight that will ensure you're last reps are difficult and to steadily increase weights. I'm 6'1" and 230 lbs and I have no desire to become "bigger", just stronger and with more endurance. I think everyone's definition of stronger is different as well. Maybe for you stronger means being able to benchpress 400 lbs and squat 1000 lbs. For me, stronger means that I can complete 50 push-ups with relative ease, 20 pull-ups, and be able to haul butt up flights of stairs with a weighted ruck on.


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## Container (28 Oct 2010)

You described muscular endurance not strength.


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## tree hugger (28 Oct 2010)

Not when you're upping your weights as you go, or progressing to a harder technique (girly push-ups to regular requires increase of strength).  Being able to do higher reps is musclar endurance, but both improve with this program.


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## Container (28 Oct 2010)

2010newbie said:
			
		

> Maybe for you stronger means being able to benchpress 400 lbs and squat 1000 lbs. For me, stronger means that I can complete 50 push-ups with relative ease, 20 pull-ups, and be able to haul butt up flights of stairs with a weighted ruck on.



Thats endurance. Not strength. Although they arent exclusive and do overlap they are different things.

Anyways Im not going to fight the forum like Kratos! But I did try P90X and it was good for fitness. I went back to my powerlifting workouts afterwards though because I had lost significant strength (in my tradtional lifts- not "curls")

I did like it and it was popular around my detachment.


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## Ascendant (28 Oct 2010)

Strength and endurance aren't mutually exclusive, which some people in this thread seem to think they are.

I will concede that relatively or completely untrained individuals may see increases in strength from P90x, but I mentioned that before. There is a limit to body weight exercises and a few dumbell movements increasing strength.

What dumbbell exercises are included in P90X? The only website I can find describes "back and biceps" day (lol). Eleven curl variations. Eleven. Curl. Variations. Please tell me this is either wrong, or you guys aren't serious.


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## Searyn (28 Oct 2010)

Kratos, while i can appreciate different points of views and different opinions I was asking specifically about p90x because that's the program I've chosen. I'm hoping to, but not expecting to, get onto a BMQ sometime this summer if i can get a job offer come April. so I have plenty of time to finish p90x. If that hasn't got me the results I was hoping for then I'll try something different. (probably SS) 

I was asking if anyone had actually finished the program and then BMQ or vice versa. Not what you thought of the program without completing it based on how much you like/know about the program you are doing.

Thank you Container, Tree Hugger and 2010newbie for your on topic replies.

(Again Kratos I'm not saying your input isn't welcome, but it's not exactly on topic either)

EDIT: for typo
EDIT2: more typos. I should wake up before typing


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## tree hugger (28 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> Please tell me this is either wrong, or you guys aren't serious.



Ok, you're wrong.  

Of the 12 videos, at least 6 use dumbells.  Honestly from your fitness background, you should know that you can do more than bicep curls with dumbells.  Tony uses dumbells for biceps, tris, shoulders, back and as resistance in core moves.  And I wouldn't discount body weight exercises - variations of push-up and chin-ups can work all sorts of lovely muscles!

Just stop typing for crying out loud!  The OP made his choice, and it will assist him in his prep for basic.  Good luck Searyn!


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## Ascendant (28 Oct 2010)

tree hugger said:
			
		

> Ok, you're wrong.
> 
> Of the 12 videos, at least 6 use dumbells.  Honestly from your fitness background, you should know that you can do more than bicep curls with dumbells.  Tony uses dumbells for biceps, tris, shoulders, back and as resistance in core moves.  And I wouldn't discount body weight exercises - variations of push-up and chin-ups can work all sorts of lovely muscles!
> 
> Just stop typing for crying out loud!  The OP made his choice, and it will assist him in his prep for basic.  Good luck Searyn!



And in one workout, there were eleven curl variations. 

How do you justify that? How is that even remotely useful for any improvement in athletic performance?


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## tree hugger (28 Oct 2010)

Back & Biceps is just one of the videos.  In the classic version of p90x, this video is done at grand total of 5 days out of the 90 days.  How is this bad?

How does all your bench pressing relate to athletic performance?  It's all indirect, and in basic, athletic performance does not matter.  There were no performance checks on how well I played basketball or how far I could hit a baseball....

Biceps is one part of the body.  Believe me that p90X covers other parts too.   :


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## Brutus (28 Oct 2010)

I have used the p90x program and found it to be very effective for what it's intended for. It will help you with power, strength, conditioning and cardio (although you should augment the cardio, it's not enough). Of all of the home work-out programs out there in pop culture, it is easily the best (not including crossfit in this assessment). It is very demanding, especially the plyometrics, and is adjustable for you (they give you a range of reps and different exercises depending on your fitness level).

My recommendation is to hit it moderately to start (so you don't kill your muscles) and ramp it up as much and as quickly as you can to get the most benefit possible prior to BMQ. Also, don't skip the yoga - I have never sweat more standing still in my life. 

I used this prior to BIQ, at 34, and I found it helped significantly.


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## Searyn (28 Oct 2010)

Rofl Aviator that animation is WIN.

Kratos: perhaps I worded my original post a bit wrong. I am using p90x to gain strength yes, but I'm also using it to gain back my endurance and overall athletic ability, including and especially flexibility. I was once able to kick a 7' or slightly higher target. Now I'm lucky if i make it head height with prior warm up and stretching. That, to me, is quite pathetic lol. Once I'm back at my old level of fitness I'll probably start looking for a way to gain the lift-a-car strength while not losing any of the other attributes, like speed, flexibility, accuracy, etc. 

That's why I chose a more rounded workout verses a pure strength-so-i-can-lift-a-car routine. I've always found it easier to spar against really strong guys with huge muscles because they tend to be slow. Hence why I never want to be huge, but I still want to be strong. That's not saying really huge guys are easy to beat. Hell if you get hit more than once it takes it's toll FAST. But in my experience the faster attack is the one that lands more often.

Now if you can show me that something like SS can keep me in that kind of shape then I'll look into it. After I'm done p90x.

Brutus: I'm glad you mentioned the plyometrics. I can't think of anything better to help you get over obstacles on the BMQ course. Sure you can just pull yourself up and over but how much easier if you can jump half way there. (this is from my limited knowledge of what the obstacles at BMQ are like of course.)


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## Brutus (28 Oct 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> Brutus: I'm glad you mentioned the plyometrics. I can't think of anything better to help you get over obstacles on the BMQ course. Sure you can just pull yourself up and over but how much easier if you can jump half way there. (this is from my limited knowledge of what the obstacles at BMQ are like of course.)



Don't worry about the obstacle course, it's easy-peezy anyhow (the Wainwright one is at least). The benefit you will gain for your course is core strength, muscular endurance, durability, and just the act of working your muscles so you don't shock your body. Truthfully, I don't think BMQ will be much of a physical challenge, but being fit will start your career on the right foot.

If you are going to pick one of the days of p90 to really give 'er on, pick the plyo. It's fantastic and very relevant to you.

And again, don't knock the yoga! Especially if you want more flexibility!


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## Ascendant (28 Oct 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> Rofl Aviator that animation is WIN.
> 
> Kratos: perhaps I worded my original post a bit wrong. I am using p90x to gain strength yes, but I'm also using it to gain back my endurance and overall athletic ability, including and especially flexibility. I was once able to kick a 7' or slightly higher target. Now I'm lucky if i make it head height with prior warm up and stretching. That, to me, is quite pathetic lol. Once I'm back at my old level of fitness I'll probably start looking for a way to gain the lift-a-car strength while not losing any of the other attributes, like speed, flexibility, accuracy, etc.
> 
> ...



- You can very strong doing barbell lifts/traditional strength training while maintain a very high degree of explosive power and flexibility. Look at videos of Olympic lifters on YouTube for examples. They come in all sizes. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOA5RbAQWA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAuS0R4dozs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9sPllx4G8M

- I think you'll find small guys will always be faster than big guys. That's just the way it works. Looks at boxing and MMA. The big guys are still not slow. (Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali, anyone?) Big guys who are out of shape will be slow. Muscle size has little to do with it other than increasing the rate of oxygen usage.

- Doing SS, cardio and military specific training (push ups, etc.) can definitely get you in that kind of shape, I'm positive of that. I can't physically show you, but you should see how it would work.


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## Searyn (28 Oct 2010)

While those guys in your links are all very strong, that is something I could never see myself doing. That is way too big.


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## Ascendant (29 Oct 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> While those guys in your links are all very strong, that is something I could never see myself doing. That is way too big.



If you mean they are physically too big then I think that only fits the first video. Rezazadeh competed in the 105+ kg class. The man in the second video only weighs 77 kg, though. Third video 105 kg.

The main point of posting those videos was to show you that you can be big and very strong, or small and very strong and still remain very flexible and explosive. 

Size/strength and mobility/flexibility don't have to be mutually exclusive.


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## NazTheEternal (29 Oct 2010)

Honestly, there are some aspects of P90X that I like and some I don't. So i end up selecting some of their work outs and implementing it all into a workout of my own. Works great because I get the endurance as well as the weight training I do on my own.


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## Jarnhamar (29 Oct 2010)

In the morning do running, ruckmarching and swimming.

At night do P90X


I thought the yoga was pretty ridiclous until I was able to crouch and put my hands on the floor, lean forward so I'm balancing on my hands then slowly move into a handstand, jedi style.   5'9 190 lbs Jedi at that!

Next comes handstands on a bed of spikes..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryGoK1l4KBk
Not sure how that will help me out in the army mind you, unless I'm attacked by ninjas.

And the new push-up standard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGKRfMLYLow


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## aesop081 (29 Oct 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> , unless I'm attacked by ninjas.



You never know....


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## Scott (29 Oct 2010)

Kraots,

Walk away man.


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## Ascendant (29 Oct 2010)

Scott said:
			
		

> Kraots,
> 
> Walk away man.



Or, I'll state my opinion, be it popular or not, because that's what forums are for.

...And not turtle when people attempt to come down on me, even though they themselves probably know next to nothing on the given subject.


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## aesop081 (29 Oct 2010)

Are you freakin 12 years old ?

 :


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## Ascendant (29 Oct 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Are you freakin 12 years old ?
> 
> :



No, but apparently some other people that posted in this thread are.

And I got a warning for the above post? Lol.


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## George Wallace (29 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> No, but apparently some other people that posted in this thread are.
> 
> And I got a warning for the above post? Lol.



Actually, looking as our records, you have been warned several times in the past for your attitude.  You don't seem to have taken heed to any of them.  You are now climbing the ladder.


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## Ascendant (29 Oct 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually, looking as our records, you have been warned several times in the past for your attitude.  You don't seem to have taken heed to any of them.  You are now climbing the ladder.



I think this might be my first official warning, but either way, it's no problem.

One of the PMs I received from a member of the Directing Staff stated that I was "pissing people off that have been doing PT for years," besides being almost completely irrelevant, he made it seem as if that was some sort of automatic ticket to them being correct and me being incorrect. I would call that terrible justification for not wanting someone to post stuff. I told them that I really don't follow or like the "they've been doing it for longer than you and, therefore, are definitely correct" argument and his reply was: "That's the way the CF works." 

Why would I take heed to that?


----------



## George Wallace (29 Oct 2010)

:

You know; the more you continue to yammer, the brighter your blimp gets on our radar.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> I think this might be my first official warning, but either way, it's no problem.
> 
> One of the PMs I received from a member of the Directing Staff stated that I was "pissing people off that have been doing PT for years," besides being almost completely irrelevant, he made it seem as if that was some sort of automatic ticket to them being correct and me being incorrect. I would call that terrible justification for not wanting someone to post stuff. I told them that I really don't follow or like the "they've been doing it for longer than you and, therefore, are definitely correct" argument and his reply was: "That's the way the CF works."
> 
> Why would I take heed to that?



You really should just walk away as was suggested. Go lift some tonnage and take your mind off this. Nothing good will be gained by pursuing this line.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Ascendant (29 Oct 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> :
> 
> You know; the more you continue to yammer, the brighter your blimp gets on our radar.



Roll your eyes, but then read the last line of your sig.

Recceguy, I apologize for defending myself and expressing my opinions/points of view.


----------



## Scott (29 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> Roll your eyes, but then read the last line of your sig.
> 
> Recceguy, I apologize for defending myself and expressing my opinions/points of view.



Welcome to the warning system. You just couldn't walk away and had to adopt the 'I was bullied' line when you were not.

I tried getting you to take a bow, but no.

Have it your way then, you got your attention now.


----------



## MPwannabe (31 Oct 2010)

I'd just like to add and say that I've done the P90X doubles routine, and it was great. My cardio and endurance shot through the roof, but I did lose a chunk of strength. I could do about 170 pushups at the end, but I was struggling with pushing more than two plates a side on bench. 

That was during the summer months, I've since been off of it and I'm starting the classic routine tomorrow. I think the program works, because I've seen the results within myself. I am also a firm believer in 'muscle confusion', because it keeps your body guessing and therefore working harder all the time. 

Cheers,
MPwannabe


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## ArmyRick (31 Oct 2010)

I am familiar with P90X (tried it out) and  am going to offer my opinion on it, take it for what its worth

Its basically circuit training. If your an out of shape slob, it can be overwhelming. However, the original poster has stated some martial arts expirience (BB in TKD is pretty decent) so I can assume you have a base level of fitness. Here is a point to keep in mind

1. Weights are great for strength training if used properly (High rep, more cardio based routines are best left to bodyweight exercises). 
2. Strength trg comes much better and at much more bang for the buck if you use lower reps (1-5) and higher sets (depends on individual) and good exercises that tax a large portion of the body (dead Lifts, Squats, Bench press, Over Head Press, Snatches, cleans, dips, pull ups). 
3. I would reccomend ramping up with weights (keep reps same at lower end) and start light, gradually increase to heavy-ish
4. Alot of people confuse cardio fatigue as a good sign of a good workout, BUYER beware, being bagged at the end of every workout is not always good and LEADS TO BURN OUT (Neural fatigue). I find alot of guys in the service (including myself until about two years ago) associated being bagged with fitness. I learned some cool stuff from a young and very fit officer about proper PT planning and fatigue management. Eventually in the CF, we will get better at it.
5. Comparing P90X to more traditional army circuit trg, I prefer army circuit trg. More calisthetics and exercises with minimal/no eccentric loading. 
6. Eccentric loading is another topic, lets just leave it at this, the more eccentric loading you do, the more neural fatigue will kick in (and force increased recovery time)
7. One Issue I have with P90X, I have seen alot of people start it with a bang, and then sizzle out after 5-8 weeks. 
8. Nothing wrong with good old running to get cardio up (Hill runs, endurance runs, wind sprints, mix it up and build up all aspects of givin 'er)
9. Another form of strength training over looked (and real world application) are strong man lifts. Truck pull ing with rope, truck pushing, heavy object carrying known as farmers walk, casualty evacuation is a nice army one, sand bag carrying and throwing


Anyways, I guess the biggest thing is to decide what exactly you want, what aspect of fitness is your priority. Keep in mind, if you don't know much and do little, P90X is better than nothing BUT its gimmicky and trendy IMO. Its circuit training and not much more than that.


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## Searyn (1 Nov 2010)

Heh yeah I did have a base level of fitness at one point. It's been a couple years since I was forced to quit, due to lack of money, and I've gained a few pounds and lost most of my flexibility and endurance. 
That's another reason why I chose this program first. I want to get back into the fighting shape I was in before quitting and then focus on building my overall strength and cardiovascular ability while sustaining a standard of flexibility.

If anyone has any other programs they've used/swear by that can provide the kind of results I'm looking for please feel free to post them, along with information on where I can find info about them, that would be appreciated.

(Yes Kratos I haven't forgotten about SS)


----------



## Ascendant (1 Nov 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> (Yes Kratos I haven't forgotten about SS)



Lol. I'm not worried about it, bro.

Do your thing.


----------



## bdave (1 Nov 2010)

I'm not gonna come in here and rehash what others have been saying.
You can't tone a muscle and if you say big people can't be fast and explosive, I dare you to go up against some NFL players.
I will also say that Kratos is correct. I find it both hilarious and lame that he got a warning for defending his (correct) point(s).

Bdave out.


----------



## Brutus (1 Nov 2010)

Crossfit. Better than p90 for sure.

also, I'm not sure of your frame size, or your trade, but be careful. If you're in the Infantry, remember that you have to carry around your muscle. Obviously, the stronger you are the better, but being overly big has it's drawbacks. 

Overly big Infantrymen(infanteers?) can have issues on long tabs with weight. They are carrying around unnecesary bulk, and their lungs and heart have that much more muscle to pump blood too, and their metabolim has that much more muscle to feed. 

Strong, lean, good musclular endurance and good cardio is the way to go. Think GSP over Brock Lesnar.

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to start a war here...


----------



## ArmyRick (1 Nov 2010)

Drop by Dwyer Hill some time and tell some of the bigger lads there, that being overly big is not good for infantry work. Tell them they would be better off looking like GSP. Let me know how that works out.

Dude, some guys are just big monsters, thats all there is to it. And they do just fine on many a hump as I have seen it. I have seen scrawny little dudes or tall lanky things also have issues on long marches. You need to be "grunt fit" end of story. Big part of grunt fit is having solid mental toughness and many years spent soldiering will help build that.

I would say this though, there is no requirement for any grunt (or any service member) to start juicing up and trying to get larger that route.


----------



## Ascendant (1 Nov 2010)

Brutus said:
			
		

> Strong, lean, good musclular endurance and good cardio is the way to go. Think GSP over Brock Lesnar.



KK weighs more than Lesnar and cranks out 55 pull ups. Yes, he kips. Not sure on his cardio capacities. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boLl8rGhJvE&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=zMzo1NiLqVY


----------



## from darkness lite (1 Nov 2010)

Having just recently completed P90X I can say it works great, although I have no doubt there are better programs out there.  Having spent too many of the last few years riding a desk, I needed to get back in shape.  After 90 days my "chimp belly" is gone (6 pack can now be seen in the right lighting ;D), my upper body strength (and size), and endurance is up and more importantly, I feel healthy.  Will be starting the doubles program soon, which should up my cardio endurance even more.  I think it was Brutus who mentioned the Yoga.   Wow, when I first started the program I was like - ok, I try it this once, but yoga's for wimps....  Majorly eaten crow.  Never sweated so much doing "nothing".  Now I swear by it........


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Nov 2010)

bdave said:
			
		

> I will also say that Kratos is correct. I find it both hilarious and lame that he got a warning for defending his (correct) point(s).
> 
> Bdave out.




What you 'find' is immaterial. You have no say or status in the matter.  Nor do you have the information of insight of the Staff. Until you do, you would be well advised not to try second guess us.

Now, you can return to things that you actually may know something about.

recceguy out 

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Ascendant (1 Nov 2010)

Recceguy, please stop arbitrarily deleting my posts.

It seems you want to have the last word, but ninja post deleting isn't the answer.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Nov 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> Recceguy, please stop arbitrarily deleting my posts.
> 
> It seems you want to have the last word, but ninja post deleting isn't the answer.



Go read the guidelines about posts that have no thread content. I don't have to give you a reason for deleting posts that are just bitches and have no thread content and I don't need your permission. There is nothing surreptitious about it.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## MPwannabe (1 Nov 2010)

I reference to the posts at the top of this page:
Yes, I agree. From my understanding there are two kings of people with few in-between - those who can lift cars, and those who can run beside them.
Depending on the persons body, they are more suited to swerve in either direction. It's common sense to identify your weaknesses and strengths, and develop a custom workout plan that will tailor to them for exceptional results. Switch it up every couple of months and the change will prevent a plateau. 
That's what I do and I'm in the top 15% of the population of fit people I'd bargain. 
Btw, some people need to hit the gym to work out some stress before coming to the boards     
Make love, not war....unless you're overseas.

Cheers,
MPwannabe


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## Ascendant (1 Nov 2010)

I think to a certain degree, without the added factor of pharmaceutical enhancements and maybe even with so, strength and cardio are found on a spectrum, with the extremes of both at either end.

Also, if you program properly, plateaus should be very rare in weight training. I have no experience with running plateaus, but many people can stay on the same strength training routine and make consistent progress for easily over a year.


----------



## bdave (2 Nov 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> What you 'find' is immaterial. You have no say or status in the matter.  Nor do you have the information of insight of the Staff. Until you do, you would be well advised not to try second guess us.
> 
> Now, you can return to things that you actually may know something about.
> 
> ...



Return to things I know about? Then I'll keep going.
I know very well what I'm talking about and so does Kratos.
The fact that some of you are getting butt hurt because someone disagrees, rightfully so, with what you are saying astounds me. The only insight I have of the staff is through their actions.
Leather skin, huh?

I used to be delusional and only did stuff like px90, thinking that was the end all be all of strength and fitness.
I was wrong.
The strongest and most explosive athletes in the world lift weights. There are limits to what you can do with your body weight. 
I'm not saying to not do pushups and body weight exercise, but some of you need to be realistic.
Being able to do 200 pushups is not stronger than being able to bench 315 pounds. Being able to do a few bird dogs is not stronger than deadlifting several hundred pounds.

I'm not gonna bother posting the dozens, if not hundreds, of studies done showing that weight lifting leads to a larger increase in strength in a shorter amount, name the world class coaches that advocate weight lifting or the fact that every major athlete, especially olympic athletes like sprinters, cyclists, wrestlers, speed skaters and what have you, lift weights.


----------



## Ascendant (2 Nov 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> But on _BMQ_ (remember?)  nobody will ever yell at you "drop and bench me 3 sets of 12 reps of 200 pounds".  You can get gorilla strong, but you don't need that for BMQ, which was the point of the thread, I think.  You don't have to explode off the line like a nose tackle either, plenty of time to get that after BMQ.



I'm sick of people moaning about push ups and strength training and making all kinds of silly assumptions and drawing silly conclusions, so I decided to run a little test here. 

I haven't done push ups since I was in my early teens and definitely not even once since I started lifting weights.

Right now, I'm a shade under 5'10, weigh ~210 lbs and I just cranked out 36 without pausing. 

I'm fairly confident I could have struggled my way to 45 and maybe really pushed it 50, but I have to press again tomorrow and I wasn't going to mess that up to do this. 

Yes, they were full rep push ups. 

I did heavy, high rep strict overhead press yesterday along with weighted chin ups last night at the gym, so I would wager my triceps/arms and shoulders are still a bit fatigued, even if they don't feel it.

So...There...Push ups, done by a guy who rarely goes over five reps in the gym and "only trains for strength".

Mind=Blown.


----------



## Kat Stevens (2 Nov 2010)

Do you read, I mean AT ALL?  Go ahead and be a gorilla, nobody gives a rat arsed flying crap.  You will do multiple, multiple pushups on BMQ, and this is from someone who did it.  Pushups are what you will do a shitload of, not 36, maybe 50 if you push it...once.  Fuck man, nobody is saying don't get stupid strong, but it isn't necessary for BMQ, pushups, sit ups and chinups are, BECAUSE THEY ARE WHAT YOU WILL DO.  

Okay, I'm done now, carry on,


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## Ascendant (2 Nov 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Do you read, I mean AT ALL?  Go ahead and be a gorilla, nobody gives a rat arsed flying crap.  You will do multiple, multiple pushups on BMQ, and this is from someone who did it.  Pushups are what you will do a shitload of, not 36, maybe 50 if you push it...once.  frig man, nobody is saying don't get stupid strong, but it isn't necessary for BMQ, pushups, sit ups and chinups are, BECAUSE THEY ARE WHAT YOU WILL DO.
> 
> Okay, I'm done now, carry on,



Why the term "gorilla"? Oh...You're one of _those_ people, with _those_ prejudices against people who strength train?

Maybe I'm getting confused again, but you're saying minimum of 50 in one go? How many recruits can do that? How many can do 36 in a row? Either way, based on that one set, I'll step out on a limb and say I'd be cool with the push up situation.

Either way, in the vast majority of situations, when people here are questioned for information, the minimum is the only thing advocated. "Jog, push ups, sit ups, chin ups. Nothing more is needed because that's all you'll do at BMQ."


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## Kat Stevens (2 Nov 2010)

No, I'm not.  A gorilla is a very strong animal.  Strong like gorilla, get it?  I don't give a crap how, or if, or when you train.  Different horses for different courses.  You're still getting wrapped up in some perceived prejudice against you and all the other strength guys... don't waste your energy, I have none.  Back to the original question, just one more time, if you please.  P90X is a decent way to prepare for BMQ, full stop.  Anything else you want to do to augment it is all gravy, now climb down off your persecution cross and go lift something heavy, you'll feel better.


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## Ascendant (2 Nov 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> You're still getting wrapped up in some perceived prejudice against you and all the other strength guys...



Lol. You've read some of the other posts in this thread, right?


----------



## Kat Stevens (2 Nov 2010)

...on my part.  better?


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Nov 2010)

Locked because of the gong show it turned into.

If anyone has something of actual merit to add we will consider reopening.


Milnet.Ca Staff


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## Ex-Dragoon (3 Nov 2010)

Reopened upon request.

Will be locked again if the usual suspects start their BS again.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## Searyn (4 Nov 2010)

Thank you ex-dragon.

Back to the topic. My question was basically:

Have you used p90x to it's completion (all 90 days)?

If yes, Did you like it and Why? If you did not like it please explain what about it you did not like as it relates to the overall fitness level necessary in the Canadian Forces.

If you have not used it and you prefer your own method of PT please feel free to PM me with the name of your Training Program and it's pro's AND con's as it relates to CF PT.


This time can we please avoid the name calling and the confrontational tone in subsequent posts. (If someone does happen to start discussing their preferred method of PT please just point them back to this post and leave it at that.)

Thank you


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## MPwannabe (4 Nov 2010)

I have done the P90X doubles routine the complete 90 days. The last few weeks are the hardest, the cardio is quite intense at that point. I ended up losing too much weight near the end though, I was not eating enough compared to how much I was exercising.
Right now I'm on the P90X classic, but I've customized it so it's not so circuit training oriented. It's all about what you're comfortable with. 

If I were you, the classic routine would be enough to prepare you for your BMQ. It's a good way to get in shape, and it's very specific if you follow the diet instructions, and keep a record of your workouts and eating habits.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Nov 2010)

Thanks Ex-Dragoon.

Stealing your thunder a little Searyn, sorry.

I'm taking a crack at the P90X Doubles with my own cardio instead of the P90X-  I'm basically mixing between running  long distance & interval running (which is new to me) and swimming like a shark is after me for cardio. Cardio every morning and P90x every night.

I'm still interested in putting on more "scaring women and children" type size like one would get from free weights in a gym. (The whole needing to lift MORE than just your body weight etc. I have 35 lbs dumbells at home I use for for the P90x but at the gym for example I was benching 90 lbs dumbells)

Can anyone (Kratos?) make a suggestion for adding free weights from the gym into the P90X routine?


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## from darkness lite (4 Nov 2010)

Searyn:

Take it from an old guy, P90X works.  I have been riding a desk way too long and I needed to get back in shape (can't show pain/weakness to you young'uns now can I  ;D).  I recently completed the P90X Classic workout and now can breeze thru the CF fitness standards (my pushups, pull ups, endurance, strength are all up - lost the "chimp belly" too and am just starting to see my long-lost 6 pack :nod. Will it get you ready for basic, in my opinion absolutely, it'll probably put you ahead of the curve in St Jean.  Are there better workouts, I have no doubt, it all depends on the results you're seeking.  Your question was will it get you ready for Basic, that's a big YES


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## Brutus (4 Nov 2010)

It is more than sufficient to prepare the average sloth for BMQ. 

I have used it the full 90 days and it worked great. 

I recommend you supplement it with running, but you get enough push-ups, situps, and chin ups in the program so that you don't have to do extra of those (but do the ab ripper x).

Good luck!


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## tree hugger (4 Nov 2010)

While I do think P90X is fantastic, I've always been more interested in cardio than any sort of weight training.  Speaking as a woman, I found using a program like this forced me to add the weight training aspect in moderation.  I didn't have to go to a gym and feel insecure about going to the free weight section and moving to the end of the row (where the lighter weights are  )

It did feel weird to not be on an eliptacal or tredmill, but I saw it through and I was very happy with my results.  I do the majority of my fitness from dvd's and still lean towards cardio discs; I haven't been on a tredmill or eliptical for a couple years now!  My favorite is one from Tony Horton's P90X+ called IntervalX or from his One on One series called Cardio-Core Medicine Ball.

Following almost any program takes alot of the guess work and over-thinking away.  You have schedule and you stick to it.


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## canada94 (4 Nov 2010)

P90x is implemented at my high school in many courses mainly "Weight training". Also it is a very good idea, we have 3 gym teachers 2 of which are dietitian's and 1 a former personal trainer they tell me that P90x is an effect tool to getting stronger cardio vascular strength. FYI, stronger cardio means stronger everything, your muscles need oxygen to work! The more oxygen you can intake the more you can do! Personally I have not done all 90 days but I have two friends who have, one a draft pick of the Barrie Colts OHL team who is in "hell'a shape" and one friend who just wanted to get in shape and both turned out great.

Mike


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## Ascendant (4 Nov 2010)

canada94 said:
			
		

> FYI, stronger cardio means stronger everything, your muscles need oxygen to work!
> 
> Mike



Better cardio does not make muscles stronger. Increase work capacity? Yes. Make you physically stronger? No. 

Muscular strength is the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects.


----------



## Searyn (5 Nov 2010)

Thanks for the reply's guys/girls.

I can't help but notice people are posting a lot of pro's about the program but not a lot of con's.

Don't forget, I would prefer to hear both sides. So if you have completed the full 90 days or most of them (70+) and didn't like it, I want to hear from you too!


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## JB 11 11 (5 Nov 2010)

I haven't used P90x, but a lot of the training I did and still do is along the same lines. I used to take Combat Sambo, a especially brutal version on the Russian martial art of Sambo. 

We had a lot of Members and ex members in the class, a couple of dudes from the hill a pathfinder or two and a hand full of semi-pro fighters. We had big guys, small guys and everything in between. From that experience I would say that the strength training vs. P90x is a non-starter. 

They are different methods and are designed to achieve different results. The fact was, that big guys stayed big by supplementing the ass-kicking we received during the sessions with weight training.

But to get back to your question about the con's.... at the time I was more than happy with the results and couldn't even imagine doing Strength Training on top of  the classes! But, I think if you are going for a physical trade like Infantry or Combat Eng., specially if you have the intention of going for any tier 1 or tier 2 units in the future, there are definitely some con's to consider.

The main Con for me was that if I wanted to get to the level of those guys, Combat Sambo(P90x) alone was not going to get me there. I would have needed more weight training and definitely more running/ interval training. It all came down to what you wanted and what you needed....hence the vs. thing being moot.

From what I have seen, if you can do the P90x stuff, you'll be leaps and bounds ahead of your comtemporaries at BMQ. Have look at the basic up stuff.... I think if you compare what they are subjected to and what you subject yourself to to be very different indeed! 8)


----------



## JB 11 11 (5 Nov 2010)

Just add to that.... the CSOR training guide Chilme post on Pg. 2 is worth a look. It is very comprehensive.


----------



## Kung Fu Sifu (7 Nov 2010)

You stated in your post that you hold a black belt in Itf TKD. Do as I did, put your martial arts training to use and you will have no problems.


----------



## Ascendant (7 Nov 2010)

canada94 said:
			
		

> P90x is implemented at my high school in many courses mainly "Weight training". Also it is a very good idea, we have 3 gym teachers 2 of which are dietitian's and 1 a former personal trainer they tell me that P90x is an effect tool to getting stronger cardio vascular strength. FYI, stronger cardio means stronger everything, your muscles need oxygen to work! The more oxygen you can intake the more you can do! Personally I have not done all 90 days but I have two friends who have, one a draft pick of the Barrie Colts OHL team who is in "hell'a shape" and one friend who just wanted to get in shape and both turned out great.
> 
> Mike



Better cardio does not make muscles stronger. Increase work capacity? Yes. Make you physically stronger? No.

Muscular strength is the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects.


----------



## canada94 (7 Nov 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> Better cardio does not make muscles stronger. Increase work capacity? Yes. Make you physically stronger? No.
> 
> Muscular strength is the ability of a person to exert force on physical objects.



I beg to differ, making your  muscles endure more, makes them stronger, the difference between 4 and 8 reps is a lot and is made through strength and endurance. BUT I don't want this to become a bickering battle, regardless cardiovascular strength is important.

Mike


----------



## MJP (7 Nov 2010)

canada94 said:
			
		

> I beg to differ, making your  muscles endure more, makes them stronger, the difference between 4 and 8 reps is a lot and is made through strength and endurance. BUT I don't want this to become a bickering battle, regardless cardiovascular strength is important.
> 
> Mike



He isn't arguing that at all, reread what he was quoting.  Kratos was right, you are interpreting what he said wrong.  Cardio is important but it does not make you stronger.  Your 1RM for a squat doesn't get better if you improve your cardio, you may get better at running but you will not become stronger.

edited for clarity


----------



## LoKe (7 Nov 2010)

I was initially going to suggest that cardiovascular health has no bearing on strength, but then I realized that it would help in supplying more oxygen to the muscles, thereby allowing you to push more.

Maybe.


----------



## Searyn (7 Nov 2010)

LoKe said:
			
		

> I was initially going to suggest that cardiovascular health has no bearing on strength, but then I realized that it would help in supplying more oxygen to the muscles, thereby allowing you to push more.
> 
> Maybe.



Push the same weight for longer time yes, push more weight for the same length of time? no.


----------



## Ascendant (7 Nov 2010)

LoKe said:
			
		

> I was initially going to suggest that cardiovascular health has no bearing on strength, but then I realized that it would help in supplying more oxygen to the muscles, thereby allowing you to push more.
> 
> Maybe.



You are describing work capacity, not strength.


----------



## Chilme (7 Nov 2010)

Kratos,

Below is just one example (of many) of evidence that is contrary to what you re saying.  I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, I'm just saying human physiology is not always Black and White.

"Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol 278: R1282-R1288, 2000; 
0363-6119/00 
Articles by LaStayo, P. C.
	 Articles by Lindstedt, S. L.
	Search for Related Content

PubMed

	 PubMed Citation
	 Articles by LaStayo, P. C.
	 Articles by Lindstedt, S. L.
Vol. 278, Issue 5, R1282-R1288, May 2000
Eccentric ergometry: increases in locomotor muscle size and strength at low training intensities

P. C. LaStayo1, D. J. Pierotti1, J. Pifer1, H. Hoppeler2, and S. L. Lindstedt1
1 Physiology Group, Department of Biological Sciences, Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, Arizona 86011-5640; and 2 Department of Anatomy, University of Bern, Bern, Switzerland CH-3000

Lengthening (eccentric) muscle contractions are characterized by several unusual properties that may result in unique skeletal muscle adaptations. In particular, high forces are produced with very little energy demand. Eccentrically trained muscles gain strength, but the specific nature of fiber size and composition is poorly known. This study assesses the structural and functional changes that occur to normal locomotor muscle after chronic eccentric ergometry at training intensities, measured as oxygen uptake, that do not influence the muscle when exercised concentrically. Male subjects trained on either eccentric or concentric cycle ergometers for 8 wk at a training intensity starting at 54% and ending at 65% of their peak heart rates. The isometric leg strength increased significantly in the eccentrically trained group by 36%, as did the cross-sectional area of the muscle fiber by 52%, but the muscle ultrastructure remained unchanged. There were no changes in either fiber size, composition, or isometric strength in the concentrically trained group. The responses of muscle to eccentric training appear to be similar to resistance training."

A perfect example of this eccentric work is the Hamstring during the foot strike of running.  Its something to think about...


----------



## aesop081 (7 Nov 2010)

Here we go again.....


----------



## Ascendant (7 Nov 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Here we go again.....



This post adds nothing to the discussion and I don't understand why you keep making similar others. 

If you don't want to read the thread because it's not to your liking, then don't.


----------



## canada94 (7 Nov 2010)

Ahh as i said; I did NOT want this to become a bickering battle


----------



## Ascendant (7 Nov 2010)

Chilme said:
			
		

> Kratos,
> 
> Below is just one example (of many) of evidence that is contrary to what you re saying.  I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, I'm just saying human physiology is not always Black and White.



I realise this, and I'm not going to pretend I fully understand the research presented in that article (even after reading the article in it's entirety). Some people use eccentric/negative training as part of strength training, but I'm not sure how/if that relates to the article

I was essentially echoing what MJP laid out in his post. Improving your cardiovascular fitness won't do anything to improve your limit strength. If you are trying to get stronger, excess cardio can actually hinder strength gains. I don't believe that's disputed by anyone.


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## Ascendant (7 Nov 2010)

canada94 said:
			
		

> Ahh as i said; I did NOT want this to become a bickering battle



And it won't if the same certain poster will stop attempting to instigate something out of nothing by means of pointless posts, especially when there is positive discussion taking place.


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## canada94 (7 Nov 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> I realise this, and I'm not going to pretend I fully understand the research presented in that article (even after reading the article in it's entirety). Some people use eccentric/negative training as part of strength training, but I'm not sure how/if that relates to the article
> 
> I was essentially echoing what MJP laid out in his post. Improving your cardiovascular fitness won't do anything to improve your limit strength. If you are trying to get stronger, excess cardio can actually hinder strength gains. I don't believe that's disputed by anyone.



Kratos, Please do not make blind statements, how does having "excess cardio" hinder any ability in strength gaining? Show me some studies if there are any? 

Mike


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## Ascendant (7 Nov 2010)

canada94 said:
			
		

> Kratos, Please do not make blind statements, how does having "excess cardio" hinder any ability in strength gaining? Show me some studies if there are any?
> 
> Mike



I didn't make a blind statement. I guess I was not very clear, sorry. I don't mean excess cardio as in being too cardiovascularly fit, I mean excess cardio as in cardiovascular training (running, etc.).

If you are trying to get stronger via strength training with weights, intense cardio training can negatively impact recovery and, therefore, strength gains.

I suppose this might be more negligible for someone not concerned solely with getting stronger, but it's something to take into consideration.


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## Searyn (8 Nov 2010)

Once again the participants of this topic have gotten severely off track.

So ONCE AGAIN I have to ask you all to get back on topic. (this is the third or fourth time now...)

I wont repeat my question again since you all should have read it at least once.

Please stay ON TOPIC.

Actually never mind. MOD's please just lock this thread. 

I've gotten my questions answered by the few people who were kind enough to actually *read the question they were asked to answer*.


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## Ascendant (8 Nov 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> Once again the participants of this topic have gotten severely off track again.
> So ONCE AGAIN I have to ask you all to get back on topic.
> 
> I wont repeat my question again since you all should have read it at least once.
> ...



The original question is still visible in the thread title and the opening post for people to give their opinions.

What wrong with an evolution of discussion on relevant topics?


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## MJP (8 Nov 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> Once again the participants of this topic have gotten severely off track again.
> So ONCE AGAIN I have to ask you all to get back on topic.
> 
> I wont repeat my question again since you all should have read it at least once.
> ...



Your question has been answered several times over by a few different people that have utilized P90x.  I can not see how you could possibly need more information regarding the validity and reliability of using the program to pass the physical fitness requirements of BMQ.  

  I for one have enjoyed the last little tangent that has happened as it has had for the most part informed posts that hold relevant information on building and maintaining certain forms of physical fitness. 

 If you'll notice anything about Army.ca is that quite often many threads get off topic, but it doesn't mean that the post contained within are worthless.  If anything I would ask the mods to cut and move the info to one of the already existing training threads as has happened before for many other threads, on many other subjects.


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## Ascendant (8 Nov 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> I've gotten my questions answered by the few people who were kind enough to actually *read the question they were asked to answer*.



Calm down, man.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Nov 2010)

Searyn said:
			
		

> Once again the participants of this topic have gotten severely off track.
> 
> So ONCE AGAIN I have to ask you all to get back on topic. (this is the third or fourth time now...)
> 
> ...



 :crybaby:
Your question has been answered repeatedly stop crying and being dramatic.


Kratos you sound heavy into strength training. What's your cardio like?

I ask because I remember being an out of shape pudgy young reservist at one point and being awe stricken by these monsterous weight-lifting soldiers that looked like upside down triangles.  I then remember going on 16Km runs or ruckmarches with these guys and they would start to thunder in.  Do you think the kind of strength you've shown in your videos of that dude is more important than someone who is more balanced out?


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## Ascendant (8 Nov 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> :crybaby:
> Your question has been answered repeatedly stop crying and being dramatic.
> 
> 
> ...



The man in the first set of YouTube videos I posted (post 14) is a member of the US Air Force.

I'm not sure what physical requirements they have, but I'm assuming he has to pass them, no?

My cardio? Most definitely terrible and I would never deny that. How often do I do cardio training? Never. If it was required of me, then I would implement a plan to improve it.


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## Container (8 Nov 2010)

A few years ago when I was powelifting as my main component and I would do my CF express test and marches etc I would far exceed the requirements of all the tests except the shuttlerun- I was an 8.5 to 9.5'r (depending on recency of squat excercises).

But I NEVER did cardio. Twenty minutes on the bike to warm up and that was it. But I think to be better at running the answer is to run- I cant stair climb my way to better runs (unless Im obese). 

But big muscles = big daily caloric requirements. That isn't always good for military folks.


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## canada94 (8 Nov 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> I didn't make a blind statement. I guess I was not very clear, sorry. I don't mean excess cardio as in being too cardiovascularly fit, I mean excess cardio as in cardiovascular training (running, etc.).
> 
> If you are trying to get stronger via strength training with weights, intense cardio training can negatively impact recovery and, therefore, strength gains.
> 
> I suppose this might be more negligible for someone not concerned solely with getting stronger, but it's something to take into consideration.



Now i understand you meant something different then i interpreted. Your right in that sense. Personally the only reason I said what I did is because I believe to be myself a well rounded person strength/cardio wise, so I was confused with the "hindering", as a cross country runner, hockey, football, lacrosse player I somewhat need size and cardio hence my reaction.

Mike


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## Ex-Dragoon (8 Nov 2010)

Locked at the request of the OP

Milnet.Ca Staff


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