# This is what I don‘t understand....



## AlphaCharlie (26 Apr 2004)

A soldier‘s feet are THE MOST important part of their body. Without heathy, pain-free feet a soldier is rendered ineffective.

So what bothers me, is that the government won‘t spend some decent coin on BOOTS THAT ARE COMFORTABLE. We spend almost all day in our boots yet they have soles with rubber, wood and steel, providing NO shock protection, and little comfort.

Same with the rucksacks... having 100% of the weight on your shoulders/neck is horrible for you! hip support is needed for all rucksacks... 

hmm.....


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## Da_man (26 Apr 2004)

use insoles


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## AlphaCharlie (26 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Da_man:
> [qb] use insoles [/qb]


aye, that‘s what i‘m doing now, but still, after 3-4 hours of moving you‘re feet are gonna hurt no matter what insoles you have.


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## meni0n (26 Apr 2004)

The gortex boots are very comfortable you just have to finish basic to get them.


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## McInnes (26 Apr 2004)

My area you don‘t get gortex boots till after your trade‘s training.


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## portcullisguy (27 Apr 2004)

Those Gortex boots are comfy, but I find that mine are crap for any marching, especially on pavement.  I‘ll take the Mark III‘s any day for marching.  The Gortex seem to lack ankle support.  Maybe I just need to lace them tigher, I dunno.

The ruck should have a proper hip belt and what not, I agree.  In the mean time, try and lighten the load, or distribute it so that the weight is as high and centred to your back as possible.  If the weight is all in the valise, or away from the body, it will seem heavier and there will be more movement/bounce, which will strain your neck muscles quicker.


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## CI Dumaran (28 Apr 2004)

Not many militaries invest in the "perfect" boot simply because it is not cost effective.

I could think up the best boot ever...
- Shock absorbing gel in the core of the heel
- edge padded steel cap and shank
- quick lace
- breathing sides
- padded and comfy neck
- custom orthotic arch support
- etc...

Spending top dollar on boots is less important--to the brass in charge of spending--than, say, a new patrol vehicle.

All you can do is use insoles, get perfect fitting broken-in boots and use an arch supporting insert... or Dr scholls gel insoles... 
I spent the whole summer at Connaught on Staff and Dr Scholl‘s Gel insoles where great!

Or hey, if your feet are hurting that bad, go to the MIR and get a chit so you can wear aftermarket boots. Magnums and other such "police" duty boots. I know a couple officers and NCMs that have such chits. 

as for the ruck... The advice given about was perfect.


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## IceHawk (2 May 2004)

mmmmm.....Dr. Scholls, "I‘m like MA-gellin I‘m sooooo gellin!"  Seriously tho, when I first joined my unit my section commander told me to go with Dr. Scholls and they worked great!  Some good inserts should hold you until those new CADPAT boots come thru in the next year or so.


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## 48Highlander (2 May 2004)

Or you could stop complaining and deal with it.  Being a Pte(R) you probably have no idea yet how bad your feet can hurt.  You‘ll learn, you‘ll adapt, and your feet will get tougher.  Just make sure you have good insoles, good socks, and give it some time.


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## Jungle (2 May 2004)

> Originally posted by AlphaCharlie:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


You should get used to the kit you‘re issued. After more than 20 years, I still wear the MK 3 with issued insoles. When you deploy to some of the more exotic locations, Dr Scholl‘s will not accompany you, and you will have to go back to issued stuff, so get used to it.
BTW, if your feet hurt that much after 3-4 hours, you either have to train more to harden your feet, or change your line of work.


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## Sh0rtbUs (2 May 2004)

> Originally posted by portcullisguy:
> [qb]
> The ruck should have a proper hip belt and what not, I agree.  In the mean time, try and lighten the load, or distribute it so that the weight is as high and centred to your back as possible.  If the weight is all in the valise, or away from the body, it will seem heavier and there will be more movement/bounce, which will strain your neck muscles quicker. [/qb]


Thats interesting you say that, because our course staff told us that the lower the weight, the better. have you tried both and have come to the conclusion that lower is better?


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## 48Highlander (2 May 2004)

lower is better.  putting too much weight too high makes it harder to balance which means you have to strain your back more while carrying it.  that‘s why a lot of people prefer the jump-ruck, it has the sleeping bag on top instead of the bottom.


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## MedCorps (3 May 2004)

The WO (Jungle) has wise advice.  I too use the Mark III with the issued insole.  Not because I like it, but becuase when I deploy to some God-awful spot, it is quite possible that I will not a a re-supply of all the "jammie" kit people like to train with.  

If we ever go to War (with a capital W in this case) it will not be a 6 month deployment.  The Canex will not be the priority, nor will it sell all the good stuff you have come to rely on in training.  Another example is people who eat those high energy "Gel packs" when on Rucksack marches.  They swear by them... they come to need them (psychologically or otherwise) to complete them mission.  Yep... no NSN for high carb, high glucose gel packs in war.... doom on you.   The list can go on and on (electric razors, GPS watches, MSR stoves, water filters) 

The endstate is this.  If you are issued it, you will have it overseas.  If your not issued it, do not count on it once yours breaks, wears out, is thiefed.  

MC


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## chrisf (3 May 2004)

I agree with you about everything except the insoles... the issued insoles provide little or no cushioning... while yes, you can get your feet used to them, that‘s not the issue... your knees are going to go... it‘s not of if, but more so when... it‘s from the shock placed on them... using a proper insoles can delay this for a very long time.

You‘re no good to anyone if you‘re crippled.


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## mattoigta (3 May 2004)

The issued insoles actually warped when I used them. They would always move under my feet and fold over itself, and would come stuck that way. After about 3 pairs I gave up on em and now I‘m "gellin" as the commercials say.


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## chrisf (3 May 2004)

Are the gel ones actually any good? I‘m using doctor scholls foam ones right now, the sport ones... they work fine for me, though if I can get better insoles, why not.

I tried some ones with extra padding in the heel once during basic when we were getting ready for the final parade, so there was a **** of a lot of drill... feet were great, but I found I every time I halted it was like jumping on a trampoline...


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## mattoigta (3 May 2004)

I actually don‘t feel a huge difference between the Gel and Foam insoles, and now that I think of it - it seems to me that my gel insoles wear faster than the foam ones i‘ve had.


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## Slim (3 May 2004)

The mark III boots are, for the most part, fine. The odd person will have trouble with them and need special insoles.

When you think that, not so long ago, we used to do PT in those boots and go on runs in those boots, they can‘t be that bad.

A lot of it has to do with your feet toughening up. If you are going through basic right now then this is the time that your feet will hurt the most, as they have not yet gained the hardness required for the long marches, ect.

I would say give yourself some time in before you run off to spend money on some $300 dollar pair of Danners or Matterhorns.

Bear in mind too, that if you are wearing non-issue boots and hurt yourself, the CF may not cover you!


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## CI Dumaran (3 May 2004)

Meh, I wear Mk3s, magnums, Altimas... I like my Mk3s with the issued insoles.

I don‘t "gell‘in" on FTEx or field training... as stated above it‘s impractical.

On parade I am "gell‘in" just because all that standing, though I could easily enought suck it up, numbs my feet.

by far the most uncomfortable boot is the CF issued (early) desert boot. There was no support and the boot was not rigid enough to hold the foot when carrying heavy weight. Oh well, I got used to them.


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## MedCorps (4 May 2004)

The newer desert boots are quite nice.  Fond of them, I am. 

Here is a little known fact about combat boots and knees.  Vibatrim soles for the Mark III combat boots are quite en vouge.  So in style, the CF thought, "Hey, maybe we should just issue troops with the Vibatram sole verus having to pay for all those combat boots to get re-soled once a MO writes a chit for them".  

So DCIEM (Defence and Civilian Institure for Environmental Medicine in Toronto did a study to see if the impact force on the knees was lower with the Vibatram sole.  Turns out, Vibatram soles are worst then, or as good as the normal sole of the Mark III combat boots, with repsect to energy transfer to the knees while doing a bunch of activities.  

Makes you think when you see all these people with the tricked out boots 

MC


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## AlphaCharlie (4 May 2004)

I went to a foot place about 2 weeks ago, and he said the main reason that my feet hurt is that because I have high arches and 100% of my weight was on my heels and the ball of my foot.

So I bought some insoles, they don‘t have any padding but they are very stiff in the arch area, thus spreading weight more evenly. They are quite nice.    

Oh, and 48Highlander, was it *really* necessary to bring rank into this?


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## CI Dumaran (4 May 2004)

Wow, medcorps, nice info!

Well, I‘ll keep "gell‘in."

Well, I‘ve heard good things about the Gortex boots but I haven‘t had the chance to wear them.


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## Jeff Boomhouwer (5 May 2004)

The gortex boots are good if you are sized properly. I have exchanged my boots three times now the last being a field exchange with the C.o. in the field. He asked me how it was going ,I bitshed about how small my new boots were and he bitched about how big his were. Clickety click the boots fit. The problem is the way the boots are sized. Its metric or something. I take a size eleven civiy pattern shoe but a size 12345X98765 or something like that. When issued put both on with the socks you are going to wear in the field and walk around for a few minutes. If the stores Cpl starts giving you static about wasting his/her time trying boots on ect just tell him/her that you will keep exchanging kit every week until they fit right creatihg more work for them thus cutting into coffee /smoke breaks.


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## Armymedic (5 May 2004)

MC,
I wear Vibram soles now after 14 yrs with the normal Mk 3‘s, doing Ironman/Jump Course/daily work on concrete floor all day....



> So DCIEM (Defence and Civilian Institure for Environmental Medicine in Toronto did a study to see if the impact force on the knees was lower with the Vibatram sole. Turns out, Vibatram soles are worst then, or as good as the normal sole of the Mark III combat boots, with repsect to energy transfer to the knees while doing a bunch of activities.


My knees and back haven‘t hurt since, so I don‘t believe that. Send me the reference.


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## combat_medic (5 May 2004)

I find the gel insoles wear faster, and your feet slip around in your boot more. I like the Dr Schools sport insoles.

As for the Mark III boots, they need to be broken in properly. When I first joined, I was fortunate enough to have someone pull me aside and tell me how to do it properly, and I spent an entire weekend breaking both pairs in. Since then, more than 5 years have passed, my boots fit as well as slippers, and I‘ve never had as much as a single blister (touch wood).

And about the "perfect boot" I‘ve learned that no boot is perfect for everyone. Any boot will give someone shin splints or blisters, and everyone likes something different, or has some miracle cure. Make sure yours fit, get them broken in WELL and then just find what‘s comfortable.

Now, to the important part, how to break in Mark III combat boots:

1. Remove all insoles and laces from one pair of  boots and place them in the bathtub with the plug in (or a really big pail).
2. Cover the boots completely in boiling hot water and let them sit for several hours, or overnight; until the leather is really soft.
3. Put on your two pairs of socks, remove your boots from the water, add the insoles and laces and lace them on to your feet, nice and tight.
4. Wear the boots until the leather is completely dry (usually takes all day). The leather will harden to the shape of your feet.
5. Apply a thin coat of vinegar to the boots once they‘re dry to prevent salt staining, and then polish them up.
6. Repeat with next pair of boots.

A little effort beforehand will save you a lot of pain in the long run.


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## MedCorps (5 May 2004)

The reference I am told (although I have not read the document, yet) is: 

REPORT NUMBER: DCIEM-CR-2000-116 
REPORT DATE: 31 Mar 2000	
DRDKIM No: CA010898	
CANDIS No: 515028

TITLE: (Unclassified) The effect of combat boot inserts on comfort, injury frequency and performance.

ABSTRACT: (Unclassified) Army personnel are often required to spend significant amounts of time executing their tasks while wearing the same footwear. The importance of appropriate footwear for this population is obvious. However, what is considered appropriate footwear for one individual may not be appropriate for another individual. The fact that the majority of the military population is issued identical footwear would suggest that at least some individuals do not have appropriate footwear. Unfortunately, the guidelines for determining an appropriate boot for an individual are not well determined. Ultimely, these guidelines should be used to prescribe appropriate footwear to specific individuals. As a first step in understanding these guidelines, an initial study was performed to determine the anthropometric and sensory factors which may predict the short term reaction of the foot to a set of selected shoe-insert constructions. The study found that changes in insert properties elicited substantial changes in comfort ratings of a group of 106 university students. The comfort ratings depended on specific insert characteristics as well as lower extremity characteristics such as foot sensitivity and leg alignment. 

From what I am told one of the variables (on top of varrious inserts) was Vibram soles.  They then looked at the arthropometric impact they had in compairson to the Mark III alone and with the other inserts.  Again, have not read the report first hand.  Will try and get a copy, and give it a read and let everyone know first hand (if I can find some spare time... going away for 2 weeks on TD).  Does anyone have a copy or has read this report? I am sure (like most DCIEM reports) it is like reading the phone book. <smile>.  

MC


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