# Sigs are not Army?



## chrisf

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Time for another poll folks.  What is your military or non military status?



Hey.... signals isn't on the list...


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## Ex-Dragoon

Signals is a trade...the purpose of the poll was not to determine what a respondents trade was, otherwise I would have added infanteer, pilots etc in there.


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## chrisf

Isn't a branch? Since when?

Communications and electronics branch, primarily made up of Lineman 052, Signals Operators 215, Aerospace and Telecommunications Information Systems Technician 227, Communicatior Research 291, Communications and Electronics Engineer Officer 83 and Signals Officers 84. These trades along with the requisite "purple" support trades make up the comunications and electronics branch. (My appologies to anyone I missed).

I don't know if the reg force communications unit use the same command badge, but I do know that the commres has it's own command badge, it's looks like a red globe, with a sword and two lightning bolts (Couldn't find a picture of it, but bottom left hand corner of this page http://www.img.forces.gc.ca/commRes/units/units_e.htm is the crest. Just remove the crown, gold rope, and gold leaves, and you've got the command badge)


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## Ex-Dragoon

Just a Sig Op...what if you looked at the choices carefully you would understand the flavour of the poll.


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## chrisf

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Just a Sig Op...what if you looked at the choices carefully you would understand the flavour of the poll.



The flavour of the poll? Seems to list all the branches of potential service, military or para-military. So I reiterate, just for the purpose of future clarification, signals is not part of the army, though yes, the bulk of the work we do is army work. It's like going to the United States, and telling a marine that they're just in the army because they have to walk a lot, or they're just in the navy, because they have boats.


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## Ex-Dragoon

When a person goes into Recruiting they are not given the options of Army, Navy, Air Froce or Signals. They are given Army, Navy and Air Force. Everyone else seem to get the meaning.


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## Zoomie

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> <snip>   signals is not part of the army, though yes, the bulk of the work we do is army work...



You could say the same for cooks, veh techs, RMS clerks etc etc.   Signals are a purple trade group that have their own autonomy when it comes to their Unit operations.   For the purposes of this poll look down at your CADPAT nametag and click off the following:   
(1) if you see an ANCHOR - click NAVY
(2) if you see CROSSED SWORDS - click ARMY
(3) if you see an ALBATROSS/PIGEON/EAGLE/Whatever - click AIRFORCE

Only in the Reserves do you find a fourth element of the CF.   (ie Communication Reserves)

(cut and paste from DND.ca website)

_ History
The Communication Reserve history goes back to the beginning of the Century.   Some units trace their formation back to the Original Signals units created in 1903.   These units were the first dedicated Army Communication (Signals) units to be formed in Canada. In 1974, after a reorganization, the Communication Reserve adopted its current structure. _


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## chrisf

Zoomie said:
			
		

> You could say the same for cooks, veh techs, RMS clerks etc etc.   Signals are a purple trade group that have their own autonomy when it comes to their Unit operations.   For the purposes of this poll look down at your CADPAT nametag and click off the following:
> (1) if you see an ANCHOR - click NAVY
> (2) if you see CROSSED SWORDS - click ARMY
> (3) if you see an ALBATROSS/PIGEON/EAGLE/Whatever - click AIRFORCE
> 
> Only in the Reserves do you find a fourth element of the CF.   (ie Communication Reserves)
> 
> (cut and paste from DND.ca website)
> 
> _ History
> The Communication Reserve history goes back to the beginning of the Century.   Some units trace their formation back to the Original Signals units created in 1903.   These units were the first dedicated Army Communication (Signals) units to be formed in Canada. In 1974, after a reorganization, the Communication Reserve adopted its current structure. _



Honestly, the poll doesn't really matter. I'm just making my point, and I shall continue to make my point. 

You couldn't say the same thing about the purple trades, as the members of these trades still belong to an element. If you have a naval RMS clerk attached to an army unit, that doesn't mean they're suddenly in the army.

The comm res is a seperate branch.


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## Mike Bobbitt

Let's swap in 'component' for 'branch' in the previous discussion to make it clear...


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## aesop081

Come to think of it...i'm surprised that Mr "just a sig op" didnt point out that, in Canada, there is no air force, army, or navy !!  Officialy there are only the air, land force and maritime commands of the Canadian armed forces.

How's that for anal retentiveness ??

Shame on you "just a sig op"


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## chrisf

I really didn't care about the poll to begin with, it makes no great difference in my life. My initial post was really intended in more of a tongue in cheek manner in pointing out that I'm in the signals branch.

That being said, now I'm really just arguing for the sake of arguing, nothing more, mostly because, as I said... I'm not army... and I don't like being marginalized as such. Not because there's anything wrong with the army, but for the same reasons a PO1 would eat you for calling them a Warrant.


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## Fishbone Jones

You guys are getting as bad as some of the Cadets. Agree to disagree and drop it.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Sorry recceguy....Just if you did not like the poll no one forced you to take it. There was nothing stated you had to participate. As for your PO1 example that is totally out to lunch as its a naval rank. Naval personnel on predominate army and air force bases are used to being called as is army/air force on naval bases. You politely correct the mistake and move on. The only time I ever saw a PO lose it for being called the wrong rank was during BASIC.


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## Zoomie

I love a good (if not inane) fight.

Again I will direct your eyes to your Nametape on your CADPAT uniform - if it has a bunch of crossed swords on it, you are a member of the Land Forces element of the CF.  (ie ARMY!) Until they put a bouncing Jimmy on your chest you will have to deal with that fact.  I'm not trying to marginalize you or your Corps, just trying to make reason.  If you drive ARMY vehicles, wear ARMY DEU, adopt ARMY tactics and go on ARMY courses - aren't you ARMY??  :warstory: (p.s. if u wear a bucket on ur head - that too is a good clue)  - Welcome to the ARMY!


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## Infanteer

> I'm not army



What are you then?



> and I don't like being marginalized as such



Poor baby....


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## chrisf

Zoomie said:
			
		

> I love a good (if not inane) fight.
> 
> Again I will direct your eyes to your Nametape on your CADPAT uniform - if it has a bunch of crossed swords on it, you are a member of the Land Forces element of the CF.   (ie ARMY!) Until they put a bouncing Jimmy on your chest you will have to deal with that fact.   I'm not trying to marginalize you or your Corps, just trying to make reason.   If you drive ARMY vehicles, wear ARMY DEU, adopt ARMY tactics and go on ARMY courses - aren't you ARMY??   :warstory: (p.s. if u wear a bucket on ur head - that too is a good clue)   - Welcome to the ARMY!



I to love a good inane fight, well, argument anyway, always hate resorting to violence... perfectly good beer always gets spilled... always a waste. Comes from a heritage in debating, while in highschool and in uniiversity. So rather then call this an argument, we shall call this a debate (And an unfortunate hijacking of poor Ex-Dragoon's thread, which is why I'm not going to bother to continue this, asI freely admit the arguing is a bit pointless, as functionally, yes, I could be considered army, though I am not actually army.)

After looking over my DEUs, I failed to note any insignia placing me in the army. After staring at them long and hard, I started to go cross eyed, and the one sword on my command badge started to become two... but suddenly there were also two maple leafs, which was equally confusing. Closing my eyes for a few seconds, my head cleared, and the sword returned to it's normal single state.

Regarding driving army vehicles and adoting army tactics, I've currently got my name in the hat for a deployment with the navy. If I manage to get it, I assume you'll conceed the fact that I'm not in the army, and must clearly be in the navy.


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## tabernac

> PO1 would eat you for calling them a Warrant.



Only while on a Naval vessel or a Naval base.

But even on a base or vessel, you couldn't get angry at the poor Army schmuck, because he wouldn't know the difference >.

(I was kidding, I don't want a problem on my hands)

Ok, back on topic.


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## Inch

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> After looking over my DEUs, I failed to note any insignia placing me in the army. After staring at them long and hard, I started to go cross eyed, and the one sword on my command badge started to become two... but suddenly there were also two maple leafs, which was equally confusing. Closing my eyes for a few seconds, my head cleared, and the sword returned to it's normal single state.



Nothing on your DEU to signify that you're army eh? Are they green? Did you have collar dogs? Do you wear your rank on the collar of your short sleeve _green_ shirt? Do you have a wedge or a Forge cap? If you answered, yes, yes, yes, no, then you're army, sorry you disagree, but I'll bet that if you look at your MPRR it says your element is land and not sigs.


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## axeman

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Only while on a Naval vessel or a Naval base.
> 
> But even on a base or vessel, you couldn't get angry at the poor Army schmuck, because he wouldn't know the difference >.
> 
> (I was kidding, I don't want a problem on my hands)
> 
> Ok, back on topic.



eh what ever ive called em warrant and they were happy that they were recognized . as opposed to hey you, which i have done and when ever they TRY to read my the riot act.  i just recall hey ive been jacked up by wayyyy  better .. ive been jacked up after ive returned fire  and this guys jacking my up for what?..


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## foerestedwarrior

Inch said:
			
		

> Nothing on your DEU to signify that you're army eh? Are they green? Did you have collar dogs? Do you wear your rank on the collar of your short sleeve _green_ shirt? Do you have a wedge or a Forge cap? If you answered, yes, yes, yes, no, then you're army, sorry you disagree, but I'll bet that if you look at your MPRR it says your element is land and not sigs.



bout to say almost the same thing, next tim eyou are in uniform, look at your self in a mirror, and tell us what colour your headdress is......im pretty sure there isnt a special colour for sigs.


oh and I am R031-reserve infantry. Though I am class B in Borden fixing computer for the Regional Cadet Headquaters.


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## NavyGrunt

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> That being said, now I'm really just arguing for the sake of arguing, nothing more, mostly because, as I said... I'm not army... and I don't like being marginalized as such. Not because there's anything wrong with the army, but for the same reasons a PO1 would eat you for calling them a Warrant.



This happen all the time. They usually just correct you politely or make a joke about it. Just like when Im in OD and i get called private. I dont blow a gasket. I just tell 'em Im a squid.

I dont see how you consider being called "army" marginalizes you- you attitude does so to a much greater degree. You must be ever so popular with the "army" types you work with.


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## chrisf

*sigh* And I swore to myself that I wouldn't reply to this topic again. So much for self-discipline.

Being called "army" only marginalizes me in the sense that I'm not *technically* in the army. Yes, almost everything that I do is army work. Yes, we end up doing mostly army courses. Yes. I wear a green uniform. As I said, there's nothing wrong with the army. I'm just not technically *in* the army. The comm res is a seperate branch, as I've already pointed out.

Although since everyone wants to argue that I'm in the army anyway, I'd appreciate it if they'd bring the matter up with whoever is responsible for the honour gaurd for the governer general, as I was listening to an infanteer acquantince describe his time there with great interest, and it sounds like a particularly interesting call out, unfortunately, it's only open to members of the army. Members of the navy, air force, and yes, the comm res, are not eligible. So if you can convince them that I'm in the army, I'm all for it.


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## axeman

hey i just popped in here to see whats going on . hey got a question when did the tri service become a quad service? army airforce and navy . when did comm res. get added to its own branch . what colour is its berets and uniform ? i have a freiend in comms res and hes in the army .


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## Gryphon

i'm pretty much in agreement with Just A Sig Op...

at least in the Comm res, we're taught that we are apart from the whole Army-Air Force-Navy cmd structures... we actually belong under the ADM IM (Assistant Deputy Minister of Infomation Management)

All of our commanders and units fall under that... we do not fall under any of the other Command Staffs. The reason for this is that as a sig op, i can do a tasking on time with a naval unit, and then the very next week i can be retasked to a land force unit.. and i've actually had that happen...

Yes, we may wear the cross-swords on our name tapes... i guess the CDS didn't want to have to distinguish with lightning bolts...

But as my fellow SigOp pointed out, on our DEUs, we don't wear the same command badge as anyone else


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## axeman

no and as a Patricia we don't wear the same command badge as the van doos its a chain of command not a service arm entire . when you look up the  trade 291  while tasked with the army air force or navy somewhere on your mprr  it will state your uniform or  service uniform is. what does it say there i do know that there are cooks that wear the naval uniform that ain't served on a coast  and airforce ones that haven't served with the airforce etc   the comms research is a triservice  trade but somewhere or other it will state what service you belong to . i have a friend who is in under the army  uniform in the trade and another who is in wearing a airforce one . but thats the service arm they fall under  now they both wear combats but they each have their distinctive deu uniforms .


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## McG

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Isn't [Signals] a branch?


Yes, and so are Engineers, Artillery, Armour, and Logistics.  However, none of these are "environments."  Lets not confuse branches with commands and environments.

Lets not confuse environments with commands.  The CF has several commands, including 

land forces
maritime
air force
northern
communications

The CF only has three distinctive environments

Land
Air
Sea

Your branch is determined by your MOC.  Your environment is the colour of your uniform.  The command you serve under is reflected by the command badge on your uniform.  Personnel from all three environments can serve in any of the commands (although some specific MOCs may be limited in the commands they serve under).


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## Jack Neilson

At the risk of confusing things even more I feel a bit of Sigs history might be in order.  Prior to integration the Navy and Airforce had communications trades.  The Royal Canadian Corps of Signals was 100% army and covered all communications-like trades.  In 2003 the centennial of the Corps was celebrated but morphed into the 100th anniversay of Military Communications to accommodate the sea and air components.  At integration the C & E Branch was formed by adding sea and air trades to the existing Signal Corps trades, which created many problems and inequities.  For all intents and purposes the Sigs were disbanded and became a branch with three separate histories and set of customs.  In keeping with the political attitudes of the time the Army component was marginalized.  I assure you that any who served in the Corps, regardless of whether they continued on in C & E did, and always will consider themselves soldiers.  The devolvement of the CF back into a semi-preintegration form however, left the Sigs component as a service with land, sea and air types in one branch.  Sigs is now a branch of the CF in the same manner as other branches but is definitely not a distinct element  Unfortunately it has also changed from an Arm of the Canadian Army to a combat support Branch of the CF.
Velox Versutis Vigilans
Jack


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## meni0n

I'd very much like to see us go back to the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals.


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## buzgo

Having been a signaller in the reserves during the CFCC and DISO period, and now being a regular force sig op (formely a radop) I have some insight into this:

The Comm Reserve are part of ADM (IM), but there has been talk about putting them under Army control, probably not a good thing because I think the militia units burn through their budgets, yet the commres always seems to have $$. The Joint Signal Regiment is under DCDS (I may be wrong, maybe VCDS) control, the 3 HQ & Sig Sqns and the ASG signal squadrons are Army units, and everything else is (more or less) part of ADM (IM). Now I work in Ottawa for an ADM (IM) unit but my trade is an ARMY trade, for career management we fall in with the Engineers, and are not considered a purple trade (that is insulting if you ask me) we are a hard army trade. The same with the linemen and the LCIS techs.

Although the reserve comm sqns don't fall under Army command, reserve sigops, linemen and LCIS techs are definitely Army trades. Yes, you can work in an air or sea environment (as can I but it would be rare) but you are still Army and not purple.


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## willy

Just a Sig Op, Gryphon: 

While I appreciate your loyalty to the C & E branch, I think you could find better ways to express it than by causing this tempest in a teapot.   

I am a communication reservist myself.   I therefore fall under DISO, and not FMC (or whatever it's called these days).   That is not to say that I do not belong to an Army trade, however.   Regardless of what command I fall under, I am classified, along with all other sig ops, linemen, and LCIS techs as belonging to the land environment.   The army owns those trades.   The command one is assigned to is for the most part irrelevant.   There are navy cooks on army bases, pilots aboard ship, and army vehicle techs posted to air wings.   The specific sigs trades I mentioned above are green, not purple, guaranteed, every time, regardless of place of employment.   So sorry, but you're pretty much wrong.


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## Michael Dorosh

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The comm res is a seperate branch, as I've already pointed out.



A seperate branch of what?


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## HollywoodHitman

I've seen guys from all 3 ELEMENTS involved in Comms work........I never did see what the response to the uniform and head dress colour question was.........

From what I have seen, if you're in a green DEU and a green beret........I'm willing to say you're in the ARMY........You issue a navy guy CADPAT, he still has on a different colour beret......They'd also have an anchor on their name tape......

Brutal.


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## axeman

Aint it though .


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## chrisf

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> I've seen guys from all 3 ELEMENTS involved in Comms work........I never did see what the response to the uniform and head dress colour question was.........
> 
> From what I have seen, if you're in a green DEU and a green beret........I'm willing to say you're in the ARMY........You issue a navy guy CADPAT, he still has on a different colour beret......They'd also have an anchor on their name tape......
> 
> Brutal.



On the subject of berets, what of tankers, paratroops and MPs? They don't wear green berets, would you say that they're not in the army as a result? Of course not. The colours of their berets are derieved from tradition, orn the case of the MPs, perhaps a slight flair for higher fashion.

As to the uniform itself. What else would you change it to? No argument, the comm res is descended from an army origin, it's just that it's not actually part of the army now. The only notable difference is the command badge, rather then having the maple leaf with the crossed swords, it's got globe with a maple leaf and a sword superimposed on it. Wherein lies the major difference.

I should really ask a moderator to lock this thread, as it's getting rather silly. People seem to be getting offended for some reason. And I don't understand why. All I did was point out that the comm res does not fall under the army, but for some reason, people are seeming to think that I'm saying that being "army" is a negative thing, though you're welcome to read over what I've written, no where will you find me write anything negative about the "army", quite the opposite.


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## McG

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> No argument, the comm res is descended from an army origin, it's just that it's not actually part of the army now.


The Comm Res does not fall under Land Forces Command.   However, every member of the CF belongs to one of three elements: Land, Air, or Sea (AKA Army, Air Force, or Navy).   It just happens that the MOCs of the Comm Res belong to the Land environment.



			
				Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I should really ask a moderator to lock this thread, as it's getting rather silly.


Done.


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